I gave up, finally. Succumbed to the $499 Tivo Series 3 deal. :rolleyes:

I should have pulled the trigger...this wait is getting tedious.

I should have pulled the trigger...this wait is getting tedious.

My Series 3 shipped as promised ... had the Comcast techs out today to install the CableCards ... took less than 30 minutes and all seems to be working fine. The tech did say they'd received word about the Comcast/Tivo deal, but didn't have a date on when it would be rolled out.

I shot off an e-mail to Comcast (which I've been doing regularly for a few months now) and in today's response got the reply:

"Please call customer service for more information"

Thinking maybe something positive was going on, I called, waited on hold, talked to a rep who (although very nice) didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

She got a technical support rep on the phone who did know what I was talking about and she said:

"We were just talking about that this morning and that project has been put on HOLD"

That's all the information she would give me. She was obviously familiar with the Tivo software and the pending deal but wouldn't give any more info.

I specifically asked "You said the project has been put on HOLD - right? Does that mean you know it's been put on hold or that you don't know any more?"

She replied "No sir, I was told it was put on hold"

So after months of waiting, I'm going to bite the bullet and buy and S3, I just can't take the crappy DVR anymore. Of course that means as soon as I do, they'll release the Tivo software :(

She got a technical support rep on the phone who did know what I was talking about and she said:

"We were just talking about that this morning and that project has been put on HOLD"

That's all the information she would give me.
I would put as much faith in a Comcrap service rep to tell me anything about any plans the company probably doesn't have as I would a restaurant owner's recommendation that his food is good.

So after months of waiting, I'm going to bite the bullet and buy and S3, I just can't take the crappy DVR anymore. Of course that means as soon as I do, they'll release the Tivo software...

Sorry ... you won't be able to take all the credit if Comcast does the release soon ... I'll have to take some of the blame :)

I don't think you'll be sorry ... I know I won't. I have my Comcast HD-DVR hooked up to the bedroom TV, but the Series 3 in the living room is so much better.

I originally had a cablecard installed in my Sammy 7178, which worked fine. I was trying to hold out for a new HTPC, but finally decided to go with the Tivo unit. Glad I did.

*sigh* I guess I'll have to join you guys...just wish I would have done it last week. Maybe I'll hold out until the end of the month, then it will no longer be Spring, the promised date for release.

Except we've heard here on the forums, from a very reliable inside source, that the roll-out has effectively been put on hold -- given that, why do you think the tech is wrong?

Ok, now I'm also thinking of giving up waiting for Comcast. Where's the best deal for an S3 these days? Is there still a $499 deal somewhere?

Ok, now I'm also thinking of giving up waiting for Comcast. Where's the best deal for an S3 these days? Is there still a $499 deal somewhere?

Nope. The $499 deal is gone. You can still get one for $599 at the TiVo Community Store HERE (http://store.tivocommunity.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EA&Product_Code=2777&Category_Code=S3TIVO) .

I was told by a few local Manchester people who are working with these issues that the rollout was indeed put on hold but some markets are moving forward now. The reason for this hold was because the downloading of the software was wiping the entire hard drive including all recorded content. So the entire planned rollout had to be put on hold until that problem was fixed. The problem is that each market will fix this issue at a different time so nobody can really predict a rollout timeframe right now.

I can say that the issue has been fixed or very very close to being fixed now. Once the issue is fixed they will start the testing again of the download aspect for about a month and if everything goes well they will do a soft launch to the customers. They won't advertise it but customers who call in and ask about it at some point this summer will get it. I was told that most of the employee testing of the Tivo software itself wasn't put on hold as they just got a box with the software installed on it for testing. So I've been told that most of the software testing has been done they are just waiting to finish testing the downloading aspect of the rollout. My market which is southern New Hampshire is expected (very high hopes very high) to have the soft launch around the middle of June. They did plan to roll the software out in a soft launch in late April but alas you now know why that didn't pan out. Also if the downloading issue still occurs and they feel they need more time they will greatly consider for a couple of months allowing their most interested customers (the ones who call in or email) to pick a box up from their local office with the Tivo software installed.

So just keep your heads high and know that Tivo software is coming very soon via download or by a box swap for those of us ready to throw the box out the window.

Well after June 1 I guess I might as well exchange my DCT-6412 p2 for a brand spanking new DCH model. It does look a little nicer in the pictures. Perhaps it will have a little better horsepower and better image quality than my phase 2. That combined with Tivo would make a great experience.

Well after June 1 I guess I might as well exchange my DCT-6412 p2 for a brand spanking new DCH model. It does look a little nicer in the pictures. Perhaps it will have a little better horsepower and better image quality than my phase 2. That combined with Tivo would make a great experience.


Cyper the DCH will not be required until July first. The cable companies can still rent the 6412-6416 3412-3416, but the security is downloaded to the box and not built in.

ajwees41

Cyper the DCH will not be required until July first. The cable companies can still rent the 6412-6416 3412-3416, but the security is downloaded to the box and not built in.

ajwees41

Well I thought they were required for new customers only, but for current customers they can reuse whatever is in their inventory. Therefore if they do have any in stock I'd like to see if I can get one. Perhaps I should still hold out for that Panasonic 250 GB DVR, but I would like TIVO, and there's even a longer delay for the Panny box with Tivo.

I just feel that my 6412p2 is a little sluggish, for instance the video window in the upper right hand corner stutters when scrolling through the guide, and the fact that a DCT-700 is much faster and more responsive throughout the UI (and they use the same I-Guide).

Add the sluggish 6412 and the fact that the new boxes have an updated stylish design makes me want to get a hold of one since I like the latest and greatest technology. Who knows, maybe it has a better scaler in it as well. There's a forum on here about the new DCH models but there is no activity yet.

so for now I'm using my good old lifetime Series II to drive my POS motorola HD box and when it finds something worth recording in HD then I switch over to it and tell it to record.

Being that I'm getting my first HDTV tomorrow and Comcast is delivering my HDTV/DVR box, and I have two Series 1 Tivos with lifetime sub. that I would still like to use, I'm very interested in exactly how you guys hook up and use your Tivos in conjunction with the ComcastHD/DVR box.

Thanks in advance.

Well I thought they were required for new customers only, but for current customers they can reuse whatever is in their inventory. Therefore if they do have any in stock I'd like to see if I can get one. Perhaps I should still hold out for that Panasonic 250 GB DVR, but I would like TIVO, and there's even a longer delay for the Panny box with Tivo.

I just feel that my 6412p2 is a little sluggish, for instance the video window in the upper right hand corner stutters when scrolling through the guide, and the fact that a DCT-700 is much faster and more responsive throughout the UI (and they use the same I-Guide).

Add the sluggish 6412 and the fact that the new boxes have an updated stylish design makes me want to get a hold of one since I like the latest and greatest technology. Who knows, maybe it has a better scaler in it as well. There's a forum on here about the new DCH models but there is no activity yet.


If you can't wait get a 6412 phase 3 or 6416 or 3412-3416.


I have Cox, but Comcast should be the same.



Why is Cox deploying new digital cable receivers?
In order to comply with the FCC mandate, customers who sign up for digital cable service after 7/1/07 may receive an updated digital receiver. The mandate requires cable operators to deploy equipment with separate security devices as opposed to the previous technology of having the security mechanism embedded in the equipment. However, since Cox is allowed to redeploy receivers with embedded security, customers may get either type of receiver. Customers will notice no change in service, and the service will not vary depending on the type of receiver the customer is issued by Cox.

Why is the FCC mandating this?
In an attempt to foster the proliferation of retail “digital cable ready” CableCARD-enabled equipment that can access cable services without a leased receiver, the FCC has ruled that cable companies deploy equipment with separate security features. For details info, visit www.ncta.com and click on “Integration Ban.”

What is the separate security device?
The device that allows separate security for Cox at this time is a CableCARD. When a new customer signs up for digital cable after 7/1/07, they may get a receiver with the cards already inserted. There is no action necessary by customers.

ajwees41

Being that I'm getting my first HDTV tomorrow and Comcast is delivering my HDTV/DVR box, and I have two Series 1 Tivos with lifetime sub. that I would still like to use, I'm very interested in exactly how you guys hook up and use your Tivos in conjunction with the Comcast box.

Thanks in advance.


well you won;t be able to record any HD output, but you can hook the cable box to your tivo via s-video/coaxial/composite cables and record whatever you're watching in standard def. just like a regular cable box.

.... The reason for this hold was because the downloading of the software was wiping the entire hard drive including all recorded content. ....

Well if it still installs successfully, I for one would be happy to sacrifice my recorded programs in order to get the Tivo software. ;)

Well if it still installs successfully, I for one would be happy to sacrifice my recorded programs in order to get the Tivo software. ;)

I'm sitting right next to ya on that buddy and I say screw those few people and their little recordings too. :rolleyes:

Well if it still installs successfully, I for one would be happy to sacrifice my recorded programs in order to get the Tivo software. ;)

+1. Funny, I would have assumed it would wipe the entire drive. If it happens to keep my recorded shows, then great, but I'd rather they offer it now with a full wipe of the drive and offer the improved version later to those who want to keep their shows.

The current software on this DVR can't even record a "Series Recording" properly. :mad:

well you won;t be able to record any HD output, but you can hook the cable box to your tivo via s-video/coaxial/composite cables and record whatever you're watching in standard def. just like a regular cable box.

I'll try this again:

Wigan4 said:

Originally Posted by Wigan4
so for now I'm using my good old lifetime Series II to drive my POS motorola HD box and when it finds something worth recording in HD then I switch over to it and tell it to record.

How does he control the Comcast HD DVR with the Tivo Series 2? I want to be able to record in HD and still get some use out of my Tivos.

+1. Funny, I would have assumed it would wipe the entire drive. If it happens to keep my recorded shows, then great, but I'd rather they offer it now with a full wipe of the drive and offer the improved version later to those who want to keep their shows.


Ditto, I would also sacrifice a few saved hours for a superior experience/interface.

Ditto, I would also sacrifice a few saved hours for a superior experience/interface.

Same here. I've already had to start over with recorded content four times with the swaps for faulty boxes (that I blame on faulty software). Just give me the Tivo software already so we can see if the hardware itself is the pig or if the software has been the problem all along.

I'd drive from Boston to their Philly headquarters this afternoon and wait for them to wipe the box and install the software if they'd let me.

I'll try this again:

Wigan4 said:

Originally Posted by Wigan4
so for now I'm using my good old lifetime Series II to drive my POS motorola HD box and when it finds something worth recording in HD then I switch over to it and tell it to record.

How does he control the Comcast HD DVR with the Tivo Series 2? I want to be able to record in HD and still get some use out of my Tivos.
the tivo has an ir blaster that will change channels on the cable box. it will treat the motorola dvr as a regular cable box.

Just note that the Motorola DVRs, at least, all use the same codes, so if you have two in the same room, the IR blaster will affect both, and your remote control will affect both. We have a (very large, empty, well ventilated) cabinet in the room to address this -- the IR blaster fed in though a hole in the back.

LonghornXP, Scanpa, and others in the know,

Any insight into when Tivo software for Scientific Atlanta boxes might ship? Is there another team co-developing software for regions with SA headend equipment, or do delays in launching Tivo software for Motorola boxes lead to even further delays for those of us unlucky enough to have SA set top boxes? :confused:

I have a working firewire output and a 500 gig eSATA drive for my 8300. If I could get Tivo's software for less than the $13 per month that Tivo service would cost on an S3, then I could probably live with the 8300. Sure, the guide is limited to standard def, but that seems like an acceptable trade-off in the short term to get the Tivo experience and a working firewire port. :D

Any insight into when Tivo software for Scientific Atlanta boxes might ship?Perhaps 2H 2008.

Is there another team co-developing software for regions with SA headend equipmentNot yet, development is/was expected to begin 2H 2007, after the Motorola software was widely deployed.

Perhaps 2H 2008.

Not yet, development is/was expected to begin 2H 2007, after the Motorola software was widely deployed.

Oh, then a couple quarters after hell freezes over. :eek:

Just an FYI: I returned my Comcast equipment today (moved into a new place where there is already service) and asked them when I could expect the Tivo software. They said "originally we had thought July timeframe, but now it will not happen until next year."

:-(

Supposedly they said they've got "too many boxes" w/the old SW on it. I guess upgrading like 20,000,000 cable boxes is looking a little overwhelming or something.

Anyhow, just wanted to relay the depressing news! :-/

Just an FYI: I returned my Comcast equipment today (moved into a new place where there is already service) and asked them when I could expect the Tivo software. They said "originally we had thought July timeframe, but now it will not happen until next year."

:-(

Supposedly they said they've got "too many boxes" w/the old SW on it. I guess upgrading like 20,000,000 cable boxes is looking a little overwhelming or something.

Anyhow, just wanted to relay the depressing news! :-/


Why would they need to upgrade all the boxes? Some people might not want it. I wonder if they mean headends.

ajwees41

Anyone seen this? New Hampshire seems to have started Comcast Tivo roll out.

http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=3928&mn=5879&pt=msg&mid=2134883

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/comcast/comcast-new-hampshire.html

"Comcast NH services include digital video recorders (DVR) and TiVo to enable subscribers to digitally record and store programming for later viewing."

Since they specifically mention DVR's and TiVo's, I'd guess they are simply talking about the S3.

+1. Funny, I would have assumed it would wipe the entire drive. If it happens to keep my recorded shows, then great, but I'd rather they offer it now with a full wipe of the drive and offer the improved version later to those who want to keep their shows.

As long as they give notice so we can record the stuff to DVD.

My name is Jay, and I'm a TiVo addict...

I switched to comcast/6412 from DirecTivo last week .. the SF Bay area sales people claimed Tivo software would be rolled out in July (probably just to make the sale), the installing Tech said the rollout may not happen until next year. Oh well.

Is there a number/email to use to be entered in Comcast's Tivo-list, in case they start with a limited release?

Thanks

As long as they give notice so we can record the stuff to DVD.

Or give early adopters the opportunity to go down to a local office and swap their box for one loaded with the Tivo software. That one seems quite easy to me.

My name is Jay, and I'm a TiVo addict...

I switched to comcast/6412 from DirecTivo last week .. the SF Bay area sales people claimed Tivo software would be rolled out in July (probably just to make the sale), the installing Tech said the rollout may not happen until next year. Oh well.

Is there a number/email to use to be entered in Comcast's Tivo-list, in case they start with a limited release?

Thanks

I sent an email last year asking Comcast about this, see if they needed people testing it for them. They redirected me to labs.comcast.net.

BTW, there seems to be another Comcast reseller leak on the Comcast Tivo
http://cable.newtechnologytv.com/comcast-tivo.html

Althought the people at the phone number listed have no idea about it, so it appears to be a false start.

FIOS TV should be coming to my area in the next few months (or more). If that comes before Comcast Tivo, I might jump ship. Any thoughts on that? IS the FIOS dvr software as bad as Comcasts? I hear the picture is better!

I sent an email last year asking Comcast about this, see if they needed people testing it for them. They redirected me to labs.comcast.net.

BTW, there seems to be another Comcast reseller leak on the Comcast Tivo
http://cable.newtechnologytv.com/comcast-tivo.html

Althought the people at the phone number listed have no idea about it, so it appears to be a false start.

Hmmm... labs.comcast.net appears to be all software trials geared towards Comcast High Speed Internet Customers.

FIOS TV should be coming to my area in the next few months (or more). If that comes before Comcast Tivo, I might jump ship. Any thoughts on that? IS the FIOS dvr software as bad as Comcasts? I hear the picture is better!

With FIOS you can always use a Tivo S3 and, unlike any of the other cable companies, there is not much danger of FIOS trying to implement SDV.

Hmmm... labs.comcast.net appears to be all software trials geared towards Comcast High Speed Internet Customers.

Yep, sorry I didn't make it clear, that web site is totally unrelated to their DVR

I think that the upcoming $200 rebate is going to push me to the S3. I'm sick of waiting.

I think that the upcoming $200 rebate is going to push me to the S3. I'm sick of waiting.

+1. I guess Comcast has until June 16th until I go for the S3. I've waited this long, I can wait another month...

Another nice thing about the S3 is that I can go with Verizon FIOS down the road.

+1. I guess Comcast has until June 16th until I go for the S3. I've waited this long, I can wait another month...

Another nice thing about the S3 is that I can go with Verizon FIOS down the road.

x2 - The S3 will make a nice father's day gift.

I really wish Comcast would make some kind of announcement about this! An S3 may just be the way to go, but I have been enjoying VOD lately and don't want to lose it.

Anything new from the people in the know?

... An S3 may just be the way to go, but I have been enjoying VOD lately and don't want to lose it.
...I got the S3 and kept a DCT-6200 for VOD. You should be able to get the digital box free if it is on your primary TV. See the 2nd to last answer in this FAQ at Comcast here (http://www.comcast.com/customers/faq/FaqDetails.ashx?ID=2540).

I really wish Comcast would make some kind of announcement about this! An S3 may just be the way to go, but I have been enjoying VOD lately and don't want to lose it.

Anything new from the people in the know?

S3 for ~ $400 right now with the $200 rebate... its getting easier to make the decision.

S3 for ~ $400 right now with the $200 rebate... its getting easier to make the decision.

Not really - paying the Tivo monthly service fee + 2 cable cards/mo fee + upfront cost for the S3 = I'm happy enough with the Moto box! :o

Thread started 5/29/06. Gives new meaning to the term "soon".

Yeah, happy 1 year birthday thread!

Thread started 5/29/06. Gives new meaning to the term "soon".Well, from the press releases and initial discussions, I've always been under the impression 2nd half of 2007 was the target timeframe with SA boxes following sometime in 2008. Unfortunately, the thread title is what leads one to expect it sooner. :)

Well, from the press releases and initial discussions, I've always been under the impression 2nd half of 2007 was the target timeframe with SA boxes following sometime in 2008. Unfortunately, the thread title is what leads one to expect it sooner. :)

But the title of the thread came from REPORTS such as this one (http://news.com.com/TiVo,+Comcast+reach+DVR+deal/2100-1041_3-5616961.html).

Furthermore, the software was indeed supposed to be ready, but simply isn't. Sometimes people grossly underestimate what it will take to bring about a product offering.

But the title of the thread came from REPORTS such as this one (http://news.com.com/TiVo,+Comcast+reach+DVR+deal/2100-1041_3-5616961.html).Well, that's one I hadn't seen before and it's estimates certainly were way off the mark. Not surprising though since Tivo needed some positive press at the time. Does the S3 qualify as a co-developed product? :) BTW, I wonder what their financials look like today.

All I know is that the situation puts me in mind of a story I heard on the HDNet series "Industry Insiders".

They had a rep from Slingbox on the panel and he said that after they had gone public with their product selling them at retail, he heard from a Comcast rep. The Comcast rep was disappointed that Slingbox hadn't gone with Comcast exclusively. The Slingbox rep replied, "Well, you probably would have left us hanging for 18 months and bled us dry financially". The Comcast rep thought for a moment, then replied, "More like 24 months". I couldn't help but think of the TiVo arrangement when I heard that.

IMO, if this were a priority for Comcast, or any big company, the product would have been out the door.

Well, that's one I hadn't seen before and it's estimates certainly were way off the mark. Not surprising though since Tivo needed some positive press at the time. Does the S3 qualify as a co-developed product? :) BTW, I wonder what their financials look like today.

Some news direct from Tivo, who actually managed to squeeze a slight profit for the most recent quarter: Anyway, one of the things mentioned:
TiVo Service on Comcast to first be launched in Boston and other parts of the New England Division

I guess I can handle a couple months more wait :(

That's great, but no timetable (not that it could be trusted anyhow...)

Some news direct from Tivo, who actually managed to squeeze a slight profit for the most recent quarter: Anyway, one of the things mentioned:
TiVo Service on Comcast to first be launched in Boston and other parts of the New England Division

I guess I can handle a couple months more wait :(

Boston? :)

Boston? :)

He said Boston! :)

I took a look at this thread to see when the speculation on the release of the TiVo based Comcast software started. It was actually over a year ago. I noticed then no mention of any release dates. And though I've heard reps from TiVo talk about the release "soon" that was in January. It's almost June now.

I'm willing to bet nobody will see it until at least the start of 2008. This should be good news for those of you who are actually waiting because usually when I make a statement like this I'm proven wrong quite quickly. ;)

Reverse psychology...well played. :D

Woot! Let's go Boston! First for Tivo and the American League.

Any chance of changing the thread title? Maybe "Comcast Tivo DVR - Coming whenever the hell Comcast feels like it for Motorola, later still for SA boxes"?

Good evening,
Was there any mention when it might be rolled out to the Boston area and how you go about getting it?

Thanks

Tom

No, there hasn't been any mention of that. Sorry.

I called Comcast last night and they said there is not date set yet and no waiting list since it's not yet in the system. I was told to call back next week.

Disclaimer: it was a CSR

As I posted previously, I periodically send an e-mail to Comcast nicely asking them when the Tivo software would be available. Last month they told me to call back and then informed me that it was put on hold.

This month - they tried to sell me a Tivo Series 3!!!

This was the response from the Chicago / Northern Illinois Comcast rep. If I read between the lines on this it seems to indicate the Tivo software on the Motorola boxes is NOT coming anytime soon. Granted it's probably a canned response, but if Comcast is trying to sell me a Tivo - that tells me the Comcast/Tivo software is not going to materialize anytime soon. :mad:

Thank you for contacting Comcast Cable. This software is not yet
available. Unfortunately, we do not have an exact date as to when it
will be at this time.

On September 12, TiVo released their new Series 3 HD DVR. This product
requires Digital Cable service and two (2) cable cards in order to
record two scrambled digital cable channels at once. The TiVo Series 3
HD DVR does not provide access to ON DEMAND and other interactive
services, however Comcast will support this HD DVR by providing Digital
Cable service to these customers.

Customers can obtain CableCARDs from Comcast. TiVo?s Series 3 HD DVR can
function without CableCARDs, but will be limited to local and basic
channels, ATSC digital over the air channels with an antenna, and analog
antenna channels.


Thank you for choosing Comcast.

Sincerely,

Demetria
Comcast Customer Care Specialist

TiVo: Comcast to Launch DVR Service in August

The service will first be rolled out in New England.

By Phillip Swann

Washington, D.C. (May 31, 2007) -- TiVo CEO Tom Rogers yesterday said Comcast plans to launch its DVR service in the New England area this August.

In March of 2005, the companies signed a multi-year agreement to offer TiVo's Digital Video Recording service to Comcast customers, starting in mid to late 2006. (The service will include recording for both High-Definition and standard-definition programming.) However, the launch has been pushed back for a variety of reasons, including software development issues.

But Rogers yesterday said Comcast's testing of TiVo's DVR software is progressing well and it plans a "commercial launch" for August in Metro Boston, Southwest Massachusetts and New Hampshire.

The TiVo CEO did not offer details for when Comcast will add the DVR service to other markets. But he said the cable operator may offer TiVo in some areas this summer as part of its testing process.

Rogers would not reveal what Comcast plans to charge for its service.

"Comcast has done a lot of thinking in that regard, both as to price and how it will be offered and we are consulting with them on various aspects of that marketing...I would say that it will be a very attractive way to be able to get the TiVo service when the monthly price is known," he said.

Rogers made his comments during a conference call with Wall Street analysts. The company yesterday released its first quarter report, which showed its first-ever quarterly profit.

However, TiVo also reported that its total number of subscribers actually fell slightly to 4.3 million.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/tivocomcast053107.htm

Well, that is good news. They must be pretty confident this time and it's nice to see a corporate "someone" acknowledge the delay, kind of unusual IMHO. It also reinforces my belief that this cable crap is extremely diffuclt to program for if the Tivo gurus are having such difficulties. One can only hope they don't run into more problems, like SA and Moto have over the years, as they move past Boston to other markets.

TiVo: Comcast to Launch DVR Service in August

The service will first be rolled out in New England.

By Phillip Swann

http://www.tvpredictions.com/tivocomcast053107.htm

Hmmm, CSR or Swanny? It's hard to say which one is more clueless. :rolleyes: Take that article with a grain of salt...

TiVo CEO Tom Rogers yesterday said Comcast plans to launch its DVR service in the New England area this August.
Did Augustana have anything to do with this?

By Reuters
Published: May 31, 2007, 5:39 AM PDT

TiVo, a developer of television-recording technology, swung to a profit from a year-ago loss on Wednesday but forecast a wider-than-expected loss for the second quarter as it ramps up an ad campaign to better compete with cheaper set-top boxes.

The company, which has seen its growth slow as it has faced increased competition in the set-top box sector from cable and satellite TV providers, posted a fiscal first-quarter profit of $835,000, or one cent a share, from a loss of $10.7 million, or 13 cents a share, a year ago.

Analysts, on average, had expected a loss of 2 cents a share, according to Reuters Estimates.

TiVo's shares fell in extended trading to $6.22 a share, after closing up 25 cents, or about 4 percent higher, to $6.36 in regular trading on Nasdaq.

The Alviso, Calif.-based company, whose systems let users skip commercials and record programs on a built-in computer hard drive, said service and technology revenues rose to $58.1 million from about $55 million. Net revenues rose to $60.4 million from $56.8 million.

TiVo had previously forecast first-quarter service and technology revenues of $57 million to $58 million and a net loss of $4 million to breakeven.

In an interview, TiVo Chief Executive Tom Rogers said the first quarter benefited from a reduction in hardware subsidies ahead of the launch of the company's ramp-up in advertising.

"It was the combination of those two things that contributed most to the quarter," he said.

But Rogers said the launch of the advertising campaign will play a role in the company's projected second quarter loss.

For that quarter, TiVo projected service and technology revenues in the range of $57 million to $59 million, and a net loss in the range of $5 million to $8 million.

Analysts, on average, had been projecting a second-quarter net loss of $2.4 million, according to Reuters Estimates.

Rogers said the new campaign aims to educate the market on the unique elements of the TiVo service and highlight TiVo's advantages over generic digital-video recorders.

TiVo was once seen as a disruptive force in the media sector, since it offered consumers the opportunity to ignore commercials and defer the time when they watch shows. But it now faces a market filled with lower-price rivals.

In the first quarter, TiVo said gross additions of so-called "TiVo-owned" users--who pay a monthly fee directly to TiVo and not to a third-party such as DirecTV--hit 57,000.

That compared to 91,000 gross additions for the year-ago period. The total of these most profitable subscribers rose to 1.7 million from 1.5 million a year earlier, TiVo said.

Cumulative total subscriptions as of January 31 were 4.3 million. TiVo has recently added features such as being able to control TiVo from a mobile phone, and sending movies and TV shows from Amazon.com directly to a consumer's TV.

On Wednesday, Rogers outlined plans to unveil a lower-price high-definition unit this year and also said Comcast, the leading U.S. cable operator, has targeted August for the rollout of the highly anticipated integrated service, which will offer Comcast subscribers the option to download TiVo's DVR software and interface to their cable set-top boxes.

He said New England will be the first market for the product.

(NOTE: Here is a link (http://news.com.com/TiVo+readies+for+prime+time+with+Comcast/2100-1041_3-6130862.html) to a October 31, 2006 story "TiVo readies for prime time with Comcast". Notice how the dates have slipped.)


Analysts have grown increasingly cool to TiVo's growth potential, noting that its efforts to add features and share its DVR software with cable providers, rather than making its own boxes, have yet to pay off in subscriber gains.

Citing similar reasons, SMH Capital analyst David Miller this month cut his rating on TiVo to "sell" from "neutral."

TiVo is also embroiled in an ongoing court fight with satellite television provider EchoStar Communications. Last year, an appeals court said EchoStar could still sell digital-video recorders that a lower court had ruled infringed on a TiVo patent.

http://news.com.com/Amid+ad+campaign,+TiVo+posts+small+profit/2100-1041_3-6187691.html?tag=html.alert.hed

By Ken Fisher | Published: May 31, 2007 - 11:06AM CT

Everyone knows that true DVR nirvana requires support for sweet, sweet HD video. Yet while the cost of HDTVs has dropped sharply in the last 5 years, the cost of getting an HD TiVo up and running has not. The much-anticipated Series 3 debuted at $799, and the previous DirecTiVo HR 10-250 debuted at over $1,000. This situation is particularly bad for TiVo, as several cable and satellite operators now offer their own HD DVRs—often for as little as $10 per month. Many consumers aren't interested in paying the major price premium that TiVo requires, even if they believe that TiVo provides both a superior product and experience (a belief I completely agree with).

In its first quarter earnings call yesterday, TiVo CEO Tom Rogers complained that the high price of the Series 3 meant that the company has "not been able to meaningfully participate in the HD wave in retail," but indicated there is hope on the horizon. TiVo will have "a mass appeal priced HD unit... later this year," according to Rogers. He did not expand beyond those comments.

If we gaze into our crystal ball, we see a fourth quarter "Series 3 Lite" coming with a reduced feature set. To get the cost down significantly, TiVo will likely have to eliminate the ability to record two shows at once, and some of the other niceties like the OLED display and external SATA may also be cut. Or, TiVo could keep dual tuners but cut the OTA (over the air) tuners. This is just speculation, of course, but something significant will have to be chopped to bring that price down below $399, which is where we suspect TiVo is aiming.

Recently, TiVo has been using an aggressive $200 rebate program to push the Series 3. The rebates enable TiVo to get the price down to $599 and lower depending on where you buy. Amazon has it for a little over $400, all told.

However, TiVo CFO Steve Sordello indicated that the company plans on reducing its rebate program costs in the near future, and we expect that part of that move will be the elimination or reduction of the $200 Series 3 rebate. That rebate is scheduled to end in mid-June, but we could see it being extended during the slow summer months. TiVo has to end the program soon, however, and perhaps the S3 Lite will swoop in at just the right moment.

Another problem on the horizon is cannibalization. TiVo's partnership with Comcast is expected to yield its first dedicated DVR units this fall, perhaps as early as this summer. They are expected to be HD DVRs, but little is known otherwise. It's unclear how these will compete with the Series 3, other than to say that they will compete. As someone strongly considering making the jump from DirecTV to Comcast, I can say that I'm mighty interested in seeing what Comcast has to offer, because it will definitely work with PayPerView and OnDemand services.


(NOTE: Here is a link (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070109-8585.html) to a January 9, 2007 story "Comcast TiVo makes appearance at CES". Notice how the market trials expected to begin during the spring have slipped even since the beginning of this year.)


A transcript of the earnings call is available here. And thanks to Dave Zatz for the heads-up.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070531-tivo-prepping-a-mass-appeal-hd-dvr-priced-below-series-3.html

(NOTE: There are other links in this story that work if you go to the web site directly above.)

I have been waiting for the Tivo Rollout though Comcast for what seems like forever now and finally gave up. Tivo is offering a $200 rebate now on the S3 and it is totally worth it. The S3 out-performs my old DCT pos Comcast DVR by leaps and bounds.

What about Firewire output? No one wants to be able to actually save their HD programs? It's a deal-breaker for me.

I have been waiting for the Tivo Rollout though Comcast for what seems like forever now and finally gave up. Tivo is offering a $200 rebate now on the S3 and it is totally worth it. The S3 out-performs my old DCT pos Comcast DVR by leaps and bounds.

costco(dot)com has s3 for $600-200 rebate only $400!!! totally worth it just got mine.

And cable cards are only $3/mo via Comcast in Seattle (1st CC is free, 2nd is $3)

So stoked I can hardly stand it!!!

Chris

I too am trying to decide what to do, I just cant stand these Moto boxes as they are slow and queue/freeze almose daily. Very frustrating.

Guess I missed this one, Costco shows the rebate only through 5/31.

That's not the case:Eligible TiVo® Series3™ Digital Video Recorder must be purchased between 5/27/07 and 6/16/07, inclusive.http://www.tivo.com/2.6.1.tacs.s3052707.asp

something is strange as in the fine print it says:*Please note that this is a manufacturer's $60.00 mail-in rebate and it should not be submitted through the Costco Rebate Center. Rebate valid for orders placed between May 1, 2007 and May 31, 2007 and is subject to its terms and conditions. For details,

I am struggling with having to pay for the TIVO Service too on top of all the other Comcast fees, and buy the TIVO box, still not sure what I am going to do. Maybe its time to look at Direct TV as another option here.

something is strange as in the fine print it says: ...Sounds like that's a completely different rebate from the one being discussed on this page in this thread.

I am struggling with having to pay for the TIVO Service too on top of all the other Comcast fees, and buy the TIVO box, still not sure what I am going to do. Maybe its time to look at Direct TV as another option here.I don't think it really matters how many different companies the money goes to -- in some ways, for consumers, the more companies involved the better, since vertical integration typically results in higher prices overall. You really should just look at the overall bottom-line. How much will Scenario A cost versus Scenario B? and how much better will your experience be with Scenario A versus Scenario B?

Remember, that when you use the TiVo box instead of the Comcast box, you pay Comcast less. I went over the numbers with Comcast here in MA on Friday. If I return my Comcast DVR, that'll knock my monthly fee down by about $13, between the DVR fee and how much I'd save by breaking my Digital Starter package down and removing the embedded digital box fee from it. Adding the TiVo box, which needs two CableCards, will cost roughly $3 extra on the Comcast bill, for a net of $10 in savings on the Comcast bill, on a monthly basis, switching from the Comcast DVR to the TiVo Series 3. So assuming I do the three-year pre-pay for TiVo service, that's about $8.60 per month to TiVo, so I'm still "saving money" each month. However, to get there I do need to put down $400 up-front for the TiVo box. No question that that is significant, but my point is that is ALL that you really need to consider. The monthly fee situation is practically a wash.

And the answer to the question, "Is TiVo so much better that it is worth $400 to get it?" is a question no one can answer for you. It's actually a pretty close thing, AFAIC, and beyond that, different people will appreciate the advantages of the TiVo box and be annoyed by the disadvantages of the Motorola box to different extents.

I would submit that you also need to factor in that $400 as a monthly cost over that 3 year prepay. That adds $11 a month to the scenario. You are paying more for that 3 years. Is it worth that extra money? That's the question only you can answer.

Very true, bicker1. If you consider the $400 a sunk cost the way you do when buying a DVD player or VCR, then it's only a matter of making the decision to buy rather than rent. If one tries to justify the purchase on a "purely" cost basis, they will never make the purchase, it'll almost never be amortized and could end up costing even more if it breaks out of warranty, not to mention "potential" problems with SDV, VOD, and whatever else the cableco throws at it or whatever OCAP eventually brings to the table. One simply needs to decide they want the best interface inspite of potential pitfalls and it's worth the $400.

I would submit that you also need to factor in that $400 as a monthly cost over that 3 year prepay. That adds $11 a month to the scenario.I disagree. The $400 is for longer than three years -- figure four or five years. I'm still using a TiVo I bought in 2001.

I disagree. The $400 is for longer than three years -- figure four or five years. I'm still using a TiVo I bought in 2001.

I support the original idea of assuming a 3 yr cycle. It's the same calculation I make with computer gear or other home electronics. 3 years is generally sufficient time for the technology to advance to the point where I'm itching for an upgrade (hopefully CC 2.0 support for VOD and SDV, in Tivo's case).

3 years is the number I used when making my calculations when I purchased the S3 when it first came out at the $800 price and since I only subscribe to Limited Basic my savings came out to about $35-40 per month over the 3 year period. With a price of $400 that savings would be substantially more. Most of the savings was in the fact that I didn't have to get Expanded Basic and Digital Classic which you have to do in order to rent the Comcast DVR. Take 4 mos of that savings to add an eSATA external drive and I now have almost 100 hrs of HD recording capacity compared to the pathetic 15 or so with the Comcast/Moto DVR.

bicker1 does have a point though that the depreciation of the S3 would be longer than 3 years as long as there's not a catastrophic failure with it.

3 years is the about the amt of time it has taken to get tivo sw on a comcast dvr.

3 years is the about the amt of time it has taken to get tivo sw on a comcast dvr.Has taken? I'm still waiting or rather am thinking of getting a S3 instead of waiting. I've already seen how bad the Moto boxes perform on Comcast but I'm still on the fence about cable cards ... I've got about 11 days ....

YMMV

Has taken? I'm still waiting or rather am thinking of getting a S3 instead of waiting. I've already seen how bad the Moto boxes perform on Comcast but I'm still on the fence about cable cards ... I've got about 11 days ....

YMMV

I jumped on an S3 and I am glad I did. If you do, just make sure the cable co. FOLLOWS THE SUPPLIED DIRECTIONS when installing the cablecards.

I think another thing that is being forgotten in this discussion of cost is what happens when your box breaks. When the S3 dies out of warranty, you're SOL. When the Moto POS bites it, you swap it out for another. That's significant to me.

I think another thing that is being forgotten in this discussion of cost is what happens when your box breaks. When the S3 dies out of warranty, you're SOL. When the Moto POS bites it, you swap it out for another. That's significant to me.

Not if you get it from Costco...

I think another thing that is being forgotten in this discussion of cost is what happens when your box breaks. When the S3 dies out of warranty, you're SOL. When the Moto POS bites it, you swap it out for another. That's significant to me.

I got mine from Best Buy and paid for the 4-yr. warranty. Four years is a long time and I am sure TiVo will have something else I want out by then.

I got mine from Best Buy and paid for the 4-yr. warranty. Four years is a long time and I am sure TiVo will have something else I want out by then.

Since we were talking about cost, and you failed to mention how much you paid for that 4-year warranty, can we assume it was free? :rolleyes:

Since we were talking about cost, and you failed to mention how much you paid for that 4-year warranty, can we assume it was free? :rolleyes:
Definitely not worth it from BB. I made the mistake of getting my first two in December with a 12% discount and the 4 yr extended warranty($99) from BB. The only good thing was I got 3 years no interest. But then 2 weeks later I bought my third S3 for only $540 shipped from Dell. At that price I could have bought three from Dell for less than the two from BB cost me. The first two cost me $1680 from BB with 12% off and including the extended warranty and 5% taxes. I could have purchased 3 from Dell for $1620. And I planned to cancel the extended warranty but never got around to it. I'll probably never use it.

I think another thing that is being forgotten in this discussion of cost is what happens when your box breaks. When the S3 dies out of warranty, you're SOL. When the Moto POS bites it, you swap it out for another. That's significant to me.

And it's not just the cost - at least with Comcast, you can go to the local store (if there is one) and be up and running again right away. If Tivo fails and you're using cable cards, you have no TV. Except of course that you could still go to Comcast and get a box. And probably Tivo is more robust than the Moto box in the first place?

Not if you get it from Costco...

And it's within the 90-day return period...

And it's within the 90-day return period...

Or maybe the 90-day restriction doesn't apply to this, can't remember...

Or maybe the 90-day restriction doesn't apply to this, can't remember...

I asked one of the CS guys at Costco and he said it does NOT fall under the 90-day restriction and it could be returned anytime. Also, this is from the S3 product page at Costco.com:

"This item is covered by Costco's guarantee to refund your purchase price if you are not completely satisfied. Costco's guarantee applies, even though this item may not be covered by the manufacturer's warranty, because Costco is not an "authorized" dealer of the merchandise."

I asked one of the CS guys at Costco and he said it does NOT fall under the 90-day restriction and it could be returned anytime. Also, this is from the S3 product page at Costco.com:

"This item is covered by Costco's guarantee to refund your purchase price if you are not completely satisfied. Costco's guarantee applies, even though this item may not be covered by the manufacturer's warranty, because Costco is not an "authorized" dealer of the merchandise."
But that doesn't give any time period, I recall that Costco revised it's return policy recently and cut back on the return anytime part of it. I'm not sure what the new policy is. Are you confident that you could return the S3 to Costco say 3-4 years from now if it's broken? I wonder what Amazon's return policy is...

<edit> Okay, you did say "anytime", so I guess that means anytime, be nice to see that in writing though.

But that doesn't give any time period, I recall that Costco revised it's return policy recently and cut back on the return anytime part of it. I'm not sure what the new policy is. Are you confident that you could return the S3 to Costco say 3-4 years from now if it's broken? I wonder what Amazon's return policy is...

<edit> Okay, you did say "anytime", so I guess that means anytime, be nice to see that in writing though.

This looks to be a gray area, somewhat. While their policy doesn't say TIVO or DVD players and such, it does name a lot of electronics.

http://www.costco.com/Service/FeaturePageLeftNav.aspx?ProductNo=11204333

This looks to be a gray area, somewhat. While their policy doesn't say TIVO or DVD players and such, it does name a lot of electronics.

http://www.costco.com/Service/FeaturePageLeftNav.aspx?ProductNo=11204333
That seems to be pretty specific equipment listed so I think the S3 is probably safe, works for me. :)

You have to wonder though if the S3 could be termed as a computer...

But that doesn't give any time period, I recall that Costco revised it's return policy recently and cut back on the return anytime part of it. I'm not sure what the new policy is. Are you confident that you could return the S3 to Costco say 3-4 years from now if it's broken? I wonder what Amazon's return policy is...

<edit> Okay, you did say "anytime", so I guess that means anytime, be nice to see that in writing though.

I know...I was thinking the same thing. I'll take the "anytime" from the Costco rep with a grain of salt. If it breaks 4 years from now, I'm okay with that. I just want to make sure if it breaks a year from now that I can either exchange it or get a refund.

Definitely not worth it from BB. I made the mistake of getting my first two in December with a 12% discount and the 4 yr extended warranty($99) from BB. The only good thing was I got 3 years no interest. But then 2 weeks later I bought my third S3 for only $540 shipped from Dell. At that price I could have bought three from Dell for less than the two from BB cost me. The first two cost me $1680 from BB with 12% off and including the extended warranty and 5% taxes. I could have purchased 3 from Dell for $1620. And I planned to cancel the extended warranty but never got around to it. I'll probably never use it.

Actually, I got BB to price match Costco.com for the $599. Then, I get the $200 rebate from TiVo. I also had a gift card for $150 for BB. That brought the price to $285 after tax. The warranty was $99. BB warranty's are great. They take anything back without asking questions (at least the ones around me do).

Wow, no posts for 10 days. Did everyone go and got a S3?

Wow, no posts for 10 days. Did everyone go and got a S3?

Right now, the price is right. ;)

Wow, no posts for 10 days. Did everyone go and got a S3?

I broke down. I have to admit up to yesterday, everything went better than expected. Best Buy price matched Costco and then had an extra $50 MIR for $250 total. I was then able to use the fathers day 12% off coupon and a gift card that had been laying around since Christmas as well as reward zone coupons. I also used my BB credit card for 6 mos no interest. I bought it Thursday and scheduled Comcast to come out Friday, which they did. Without any cable cards. That was a half day off wasted. Then when I called to ask them not to charge me for the next install, they couldn't understand why I was angry. Oh well, I guess I have to wait until next Friday to see the Series 3 in action.

This is why I will not buy an S3. I don't want to spend the money on the unit and the monthly service with this looming.

This quote is from one of the Comcast Administrators on the Comcast forums.

"I am not sure of the roll-out schedule for SDV, however, I do know that there is a push to have this in all areas by sometime late next year. Most likely, not all channels will be switched. Local networks, for instance, will probably stay as a traditional broadcast."

Costco's new return policy on electronics is 90 days.

Doesn't apply to S3. Costco's regular return policy applies.
Snip of terms for S3.
This item is covered by Costco's guarantee to refund your purchase price if you are not completely satisfied. Costco's guarantee applies, even though this item may not be covered by the manufacturer's warranty, because Costco is not an "authorized" dealer of the merchandise.

Snip of terms for 90 day electronics.
THE RETURN POLICY FOR TELEVISIONS, PROJECTORS, COMPUTERS, CAMERAS, CAMCORDERS, IPODS / MP3S, AND CELLULAR PHONES IS 90 DAYS FROM DATE OF PURCHASE.

And I confirmed with a rep at my local Costco that the S3 does in fact carry the "return anytime" policy.

And I confirmed with a rep at my local Costco that the S3 does in fact carry the "return anytime" policy.

True, but if you wait more than 30 days to terminate Tivo, , you'll be stuck paying them for a year.

True, but if you wait more than 30 days to terminate Tivo, , you'll be stuck paying them for a year.

Yeah, but theoretically in a few years if Comcast switches to SDV or somehow renders the Tivo useless, I'll be able to return it and get my money back. I really doubt my area will go to SDV within a year (we're always last to get Comcast upgrades/products) so having to pay for the Tivo service for a year is not that much of a gamble.

um, how did you get an S3 for $250??? isn't it $599?

um, how did you get an S3 for $250??? isn't it $599?

If you're refering to my post, I'm afraid I wasn't very clear. Best Buy had an additional $50 MIR, bringing the total amount of MIR's to $250. But I did get it for 599 before the MIR's and the 12% off coupon.

If you're refering to my post, I'm afraid I wasn't very clear. Best Buy had an additional $50 MIR, bringing the total amount of MIR's to $250. But I did get it for 599 before the MIR's and the 12% off coupon.

I also got an S3 at best buy and they matched costco's price. But the terms of the $50 MIR were such that a price match would go against the rebate. So if you got a price match of more than $50 than you couldn't get the rebate.

If you found a way around that, let me know!

Could one purchase a Tvio S3 without the Tvio service plan? Just use it as a "simple" DVR with an external control program, using the Ethernet connector on a home network and MicroSoft or other "free" program or OBR (one button record?)...Or would that just be missing the point of Tvio in the first place...where an alternate one box DVR would suffice? (Not a computer setup)...???

From what I read, S3 offers only an analog OTA and CableTV and QAM digital CableTV with two CableCards slots. No OTA ATSC?

What's the purpose of two CableCard slots?

The TiVo Series 3 will not operate fully without a valid, up-to-date TiVo service subscription. It doesn't have any hooks to secure program guide data from any other source.

None of the no-subscription HD DVRs have done well in the marketplace, which is why there aren't any current being offered.

I use my S3 to record OTA ATSC, no problem.

The CableCards facilitate access to encrypted digital cable content, and also facilitate channel mapping for QAM frequencies to cable channels (which cannot be done manually).

I find it funny that the longer the Tivo branded comcast/moto box is delayed, the more this becomes a thread about the S3.

I missed out on the rebate, but I'll probably jump at the next good deal unless we hear some positive news from Comcast

The TiVo Series 3 will not operate fully without a valid, up-to-date TiVo service subscription. It doesn't have any hooks to secure program guide data from any other source.

None of the no-subscription HD DVRs have done well in the marketplace, which is why there aren't any current being offered.

I use my S3 to record OTA ATSC, no problem.

The CableCards facilitate access to encrypted digital cable content, and also facilitate channel mapping for QAM frequencies to cable channels (which cannot be done manually).

Thank you Bicker1,

I didn't see OTA ATSC listed as a S3 tuner option.

And I think the observation is correct, the longer Comcast delays its DVR, the more this forum turned into Tivo S3...I actually thought it was when I went searching for S3 info...

I didn't see OTA ATSC listed as a S3 tuner option.

I'm pretty sure the marketing info does mention it. But yes, it definitely does OTA ATSC reception as well as QAM digital cable, analog cable and NTSC analog TV reception. Pretty much the only thing it doesn't do is, of course, satellite.

Directly from Tivo's website

http://dynamic.tivo.com/2.0.3hdDvr.features.asp

"The TiVo® Series3™ HD Digital Media Recorder is also compatible with analog cable and over-the-air digital HD (ATSC)."

There are, however, only six tuners (three and three). So one of the tuners does double-duty. That might be the source of the confusion.

Too bad you can't use all off them at once. :)

Since when did this turn into an series 3 thread?

TiVo describes it as a "Dual tuner: Record 2 shows at once" at the web site URL posted above in the "Compare to Cable & Satellite DVRs" pop up. I think it is confusing to say six tuners (three and three) because that makes me think it can record 3 shows at once.

There are, however, only six tuners (three and three). So one of the tuners does double-duty. That might be the source of the confusion.

It may be confusing, but it is accurate. "Three and three" refers to three complementary tuners, only one of which is utilized at one time, times two. The point being made was that utilization of the four types of signals is accomplished by three tuners. Also, internalizing that there are six tuners in the device helps some folks better understand why the device costs so much.

Sorry if that's still confusing... I see no other way of explaining it better.

I agree it's easier to explain it that way, I've done so myself, but I was also chastized because you won't be able to open the unit and pull out 6 individual tuners, they simply don't exist in the traditional sense. :)

Since when did this turn into an series 3 thread?
About the time it was announced that there's no way we'd have the damn Comcast-Tivo box anytime soon, that's when. :mad:

I think your explanation is good. The problem that I have about the initial post was that TiVo, SA, Motorola, and all the other DVR makers that I know about use the word Tuner to refer to the whole Tuner component and don't refer to individual parts (functions) as tuners. TiVo refers to the original TiVo as a single tuner, the Series2 DT & Series3 TiVo as dual tuners, and most cable DVRs are referred to as dual tuners. SA has a DVR that it sells in Europe that it refers to as a triple tuner which can record 3 programs at the same time.

It may be confusing, but it is accurate. "Three and three" refers to three complementary tuners, only one of which is utilized at one time, times two. The point being made was that utilization of the four types of signals is accomplished by three tuners. Also, internalizing that there are six tuners in the device helps some folks better understand why the device costs so much.

Sorry if that's still confusing... I see no other way of explaining it better.

TiVo says Comcast accepts software for DVRs

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSWEN909320070628

Well considering how long it is taking for Comcast to roll out their current guide here in SEA to replace the Microsoft one we have had since the original DVR launch, I figure we'll see it about the time TiVo launches the Series 33.

I expect we'll see the TiVo software on Comcast boxes here in the Boston area in August.

This is good news. I hope we'll actually get to use the software soon.

TiVo says Comcast accepts software for DVRs

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSWEN909320070628

Very exciting! Hope to see it this summer! :(

Anyone happen to know how Tivo handles closed captioning for digital connections?

How do you mean? :confused:

While not as good as the Motorola 64xx/34xx DVRs, the TiVo Series 3 does a good job providing decoded Closed Captions over our HDMI connection.

While not as good as the Motorola 64xx/34xx DVRs, the TiVo Series 3 does a good job providing decoded Closed Captions over our HDMI connection.

Not as good as Motorola?! Please explain! :)

With Motorola, you have to actually turn off the box to set the CC on. Which obviously makes it pretty unwieldy to toggle it on and off (particularly if it's recording something). How does Tivo handle this for digital connections?

The Motorola DVRs, for all their faults, happen to have the best Closed Captioning capabilities we've seen. They are as good as any when it comes to reliability, and have added features that are available on only a few others, such as transparent and translucent background.

Since my wife is hearing-impaired 24/7, all-year-long, there is no concern about toggling the function on and off.

TiVo's Closed Caption toggle is available from the playback menu, even, if you really have a reason to toggle it.

CC is not just for hearing impaired. English is not my first language, as you can tell. So turning CC on for some shows with fast dialogues make it easier to me and my wife. But we don't need it on all the time since our English is serviceable in most of the shows. :) So a fast toggle is a must to us.

How do you even get CC to work on a Motorola DVR? I went in the menu and turned it on and I never saw any CC. I even tried set top box mute to see if that triggered it on and off like my TV does. Does it only display on the DVI/HDMI port?

With respect, all rationales for requiring Closed Captioning are based primarily on the needs of the hearing-impaired. While others can benefit from it as well, that was not its original intention, nor the foundation of the requirements for it, so it is reasonable to expect that the capability would be designed primarily with the needs of the hearing-impaired in mind.

The configure the Motorola DVRs to show Closed Captions follow these directions:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_use_a_Motorola_DVR/Setup#Closed_Caption

How do you even get CC to work on a Motorola DVR? I went in the menu and turned it on and I never saw any CC. I even tried set top box mute to see if that triggered it on and off like my TV does. Does it only display on the DVI/HDMI port?
From what I can tell, the DVR does not display CC when outputting 480i. You have to use your TV's CC for that mode.

LonghornXP had this to say...

http://www.satelliteguys.us/comcast-cable-forum/100109-comcast-certifies-tivo-software.html#post942285

I hope you don't mind LonghornXP. I'm thinking AVSF readers will value your "hands on" experience.

The Motorola DVRs, for all their faults, happen to have the best Closed Captioning capabilities we've seen. They are as good as any when it comes to reliability, and have added features that are available on only a few others, such as transparent and translucent background. Since my wife is hearing-impaired 24/7, all-year-long, there is no concern about toggling the function on and off.
TiVo's Closed Caption toggle is available from the playback menu, even, if you really have a reason to toggle it.

I'm also hearing impaired 24/7, but that doesn't change the fact that the Comcast/Motorola implementation of the CC menu sucks. Having to turn off the box to toggle CC is just ridiculous.

There are plenty of reasons that someone who is hearing impaired might want to toggle the CC. Some programs have such a long CC time lag that they're almost unwatchable with CC on. There are times when CC covers up important screen real estate. And you might just want to re-watch some scenes without CC. Not to mention that the CC writers often forget that captions are for the deaf, not the blind - don't even get me started on that... grrrr

Not to mention that the CC writers often forget that captions are for the deaf, not the blind - don't even get me started on that... grrrrThat much, at least, we can agree on.

is the tivo software ready yet? I'm sick of waiting

Yes, Comcast has signed-off. Expect to see it deployed in parts of Eastern Massachusetts by August.

Yes, Comcast has signed-off. Expect to see it deployed in parts of Eastern Massachusetts by August.

I can't see that far.

Boston is lovely in the summer.

so If I call comcast they will mail me a tivo dvr, correct?

so If I call comcast they will mail me a tivo dvr, correct?

No. My understanding is that it will be a software download to your current box or a pre-loaded version on a new comcast (ie. Motorola) dvr.

...and they will mail you a new peanut (Tivo) remote.

...and they will mail you a new peanut (Tivo) remote.

I knew that I was missing something! :)

Is West Roxbury / Boston part of the initial Roll out?
FREAK!

My biggest concern is that in order to get the TiVo service I'll have to forgo active Firewire, which would be something I'm just unwilling to do.:(

My biggest concern is that in order to get the TiVo service I'll have to forgo active Firewire, which would be something I'm just unwilling to do.:(


Just wondering, with the restrictions on recording protected shows (especially the pay cable stations), what's the benefit of Firewire? TIA

Just wondering, with the restrictions on recording protected shows (especially the pay cable stations), what's the benefit of Firewire? TIA5C is on here but that doesn't stop me from making copies of anything except on OnDemand. If the premium channel like HBO is set to "copy once" that means I can't make a copy of a copy, but of the source I can make as many copies as I want.

does anyone know the telephone number to order this comcast tivo box? I would like to pay extra and have my overnighted if possible, do they offer overnight shipping?

Its not available yet and will just be a software download to the regular moto boxes. Talk has it the Boston/NH area will get first release in August.

Hmmm...

To wait until comcrap gets its act together, or buy a series 3 lite?

$299 MSRP looks *mighty* tasty!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/17/tivo-series-3-lite-pics-and-specs-revealed/



...especially since Comcrap has announced DVR rental prices going up in January. If the DVR prices for regular subs go up to $15/month, plus $5/month for a tivo-ized box, that sure looks a heck of a lot like a regular tivo subscription to me!

Granted, without the $300 initial capital investment, but at this point I'm pretty sour on Comcrap and would LOVE to give my money directly to Tivo instead.

My biggest concern is that in order to get the TiVo service I'll have to forgo active Firewire, which would be something I'm just unwilling to do.:(

While I share your concern, I'm assuming that firewire will work as well (or as badly, depending on your perspective) for Comcast Tivo as it does for the existing Comcast DVRs. Cable companies, unlike satellite companies, are required to have firewire, and the Tivo software is supposed to be downloaded to the current Comcast boxes that already allow firewire out. Of course, given firewire problems and the fact that it's Comcast, nothing is certain.

I'm sure once Comcast Tivos are available someone will tell us on this forum whether firewire out will work before I decide whether I want to switch. If there's no active Firewire on the Comcast Tivos, I'll definitely not switch; I probably won't switch even if there is active Firewire because I don't think I'll need the additional Tivo features, but I may.

After having a TiVo for 5 years, and 9 months into having the Comcast/Motorola DCT3416 (and previous Comcast/Motorola HD DVRs), I am pretty frustrated at the Moto's (lack of) performance. Laggy remote, etc. TiVo spoiled me. So I called Comcast the other day and complained (again) and asked when the long awaited TiVo interface would be available. The CS rep said it was currently being tested in a few states (in the NE as I recall), but clarified that what they're testing and planning to implement is not the full TiVo interface, but rather just replacing the Comcast program info with the TiVo program guide. He said the Comcast program guide is huge, and this is what causes the issues with the DVR (and why they recently reduced the stored program guide from 14 days to 7 - 10 days), and that with the (apparently much smaller) TiVo program guide, the boxes will work much better.

I told him I was very disappointed, not only by the delay in implementing TiVo, but also by the fact that it won't be the full TiVo interface (like the CES vid we've all seen).

Anybody have any further insight into this?

Hmmm...

To wait until comcrap gets its act together, or buy a series 3 lite?

$299 MSRP looks *mighty* tasty!

http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/17/tivo-series-3-lite-pics-and-specs-revealed/



...especially since Comcrap has announced DVR rental prices going up in January. If the DVR prices for regular subs go up to $15/month, plus $5/month for a tivo-ized box, that sure looks a heck of a lot like a regular tivo subscription to me!

Granted, without the $300 initial capital investment, but at this point I'm pretty sour on Comcrap and would LOVE to give my money directly to Tivo instead.


"Mighty tasty", indeed.

But being that I have acquired such a taste for OnDemand, the loss of it thru CableCard use is just not worth it.

Buggy operation and all (although my Moto 6416 SIII hasn't been too bad, the 6412 was awful), OnDemand is the main reason I wouldn't ditch a cable box/DVR (or cable at all as of now).

The Moto box issues do suck, I admit. But some here make it sound as if their various issues are tatamount to the end of the world.

After having a TiVo for 5 years, and 9 months into having the Comcast/Motorola DCT3416 (and previous Comcast/Motorola HD DVRs), I am pretty frustrated at the Moto's (lack of) performance. Laggy remote, etc. TiVo spoiled me. So I called Comcast the other day and complained (again) and asked when the long awaited TiVo interface would be available. The CS rep said it was currently being tested in a few states (in the NE as I recall), but clarified that what they're testing and planning to implement is not the full TiVo interface, but rather just replacing the Comcast program info with the TiVo program guide. He said the Comcast program guide is huge, and this is what causes the issues with the DVR (and why they recently reduced the stored program guide from 14 days to 7 - 10 days), and that with the (apparently much smaller) TiVo program guide, the boxes will work much better.

I told him I was very disappointed, not only by the delay in implementing TiVo, but also by the fact that it won't be the full TiVo interface (like the CES vid we've all seen).

Anybody have any further insight into this?

What the CSR told you is just not true.

HA Most of those CSR's don't know jack. I rarely ran into one that was intelligible. Perhaps pay them more than $8/hr and they'll be more interested in their job and learn a little bit about how things work and pay attention to upcoming products.

Very occasionally you'll get a good one. Those senior reps could of been there for a long time making better pay. But no one really knows all of the in's and out's of the Tivo software yet. It's all speculation at this point.

What the CSR told you is just not true.

From your lips to God's ears! ;)

The CSRs should be helping folks with CURRENT offerings, not musing about future offerings, for which they haven't been trained yet. If you want information about future offerings, ask the designers, if you can find them; otherwise, wait.

The CSRs should be helping folks with CURRENT offerings, not musing about future offerings, for which they haven't been trained yet.

You found a CSR who's been trained on the current offerings?!

Well, like I said: That's what they should be helping folks with.

While I share your concern, I'm assuming that firewire will work as well (or as badly, depending on your perspective) for Comcast Tivo as it does for the existing Comcast DVRs. Cable companies, unlike satellite companies, are required to have firewire, and the Tivo software is supposed to be downloaded to the current Comcast boxes that already allow firewire out. Actually, the rules state that the cable companies are only required to offer one box that have active firewire, and they don't neccessarily have to be full featured.:(

That was the original rule. There is a mandate that cable companies provided HD STB with 'functional' 1394 interfaces by April 1, 2004. And there is a mandate that HD STBs acquired by cable operators after July 1, 2005 include a 1394 interface. There is a debate about whether the "1394 interface" in the previous sentence has to be functional. I think it means functional. See my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7131770&&#post7131770) for the reasons why. There are posts prior to and after mine that take the view that it does not mean functional. Even if it is functional, DRM and the restrictions it places on making copies, makes the 1394 interface less useful.

Actually, the rules state that the cable companies are only required to offer one box that have active firewire, and they don't neccessarily have to be full featured.:(

That was the original rule. There is a mandate that cable companies provided HD STB with 'functional' 1394 interfaces by April 1, 2004. And there is a mandate that HD STBs acquired by cable operators after July 1, 2005 include a 1394 interface. There is a debate about whether the "1394 interface" in the previous sentence has to be functional. I think it means functional. See my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7131770&&#post7131770) for the reasons why. There are posts prior to and after mine that take the view that it does not mean functional. Even if it is functional, DRM and the restrictions it places on making copies, makes the 1394 interface less useful.When I said "full featured" I was speaking of different models of the boxes themselves, not of the Firewire being active. A cable company only needs only one box with active firewire, and all their other boxes don't have to have it at all, but that one box with Firewire can be totally no frills.

That is the original regulation that went into effect on April 1, 2004, which was delayed from December 31, 2003. The current regulation which went into effect on July 1, 2005 states all high definition set-top boxes acquired by cable operators for distribution to subscribers would need to include a 1394 interface and either a Digital Visual Interface (“DVI”) or High Definition Multimedia Interface (“HDMI”). My previous post and the post it links to explain why I think the 1394 interface has to be functional but there is still debate on whether it has to be functional. The following is a quote of the regulation from this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7129061&&#post7129061):
24. Cable subscribers owning unidirectional digital cable televisions or DTV monitors that wish to receive advanced, interactive services will need a separate set-top box in order to do so. As a means of ensuring the connectivity of these devices, the proposed rules would obligate all cable operators, effective December 31, 2003, to replace or upgrade subscriber-leased high definition set-top boxes upon subscriber request to ensure that such boxes have “functional” 1394 interfaces.60 For these purposes, a “functional” 1394 means a 1394 interface with appropriate software support.61 Starting July 1, 2005, all high definition set-top boxes acquired by cable operators for distribution to subscribers would need to include a 1394 interface and either a Digital Visual Interface (“DVI”) or High Definition Multimedia Interface (“HDMI”).62 High definition set-top boxes provided to subscribers pursuant to these deadlines would also need to comply with certain technical standards.63 No comments were received objecting to these proposals. We believe that these interface and technical requirements will set a baseline for connectivity ensuring that cable subscribers are able to fully enjoy the range of services offered by their cable provider in a secure, digital format. As such, we adopt these high definition set-top box obligations and defer the December 31, 2003 obligation to April 1, 2004.

When I said "full featured" I was speaking of different models of the boxes themselves, not of the Firewire being active. A cable company only needs only one box with active firewire, and all their other boxes don't have to have it at all, but that one box with Firewire can be totally no frills.

Russ, I am fairly certain you are mistaken. They only need 1 box with working Firewire. We've had long discussions on this. Either way I guess we'll find out what Comcast's plans are with TiVo vero soon (probably me before many others).

I personally don't know if I'm going to be willing to even invest in the TiVo function either way, as I feel they are extorting me to death. I just took advantage of the 16Mbps/2Mbps internet deal and the service was only supposed to be $10 more than the 6Mbps cable package, but they actually hiked up my bill $20 because there is no $10 discount w/Cable TV like the other 6Mbps.

Extorting bastards!:mad:

I am certain that I am correct. People should read the regulation and the footnotes and decide what the regulations say. The only thing that is still in doubt is whether the firewire ports have to be functional.

So it looks like the $299 - 180-hour TiVo® HD DVR is out now.

What to do? Wait for Comcast's TiVo?

So it looks like the $299 - 180-hour TiVo® HD DVR is out now.

What to do? Wait for Comcast's TiVo?

Wow, this is getting interesting. It looks like TiVo offers a multi-service discount that would reduce the service by $6/month. I have a Liftime Service on an S2 that is still in use on a SD set in the house. If I read their offer correctly, this would mean getting service on a new HD TiVo would only run me $6.95 per month.

Hmmm, sounds like if am willing to pay the upfront cost on the new hardware my monthly cost would drop $10/month and I would be finally back to TiVo on my primary set. Very tempting. I have been without the TiVo since 12/05 when I got the HD set and I am pretty sure that the entire time the Comcast with TiVo promise was right around the corned.

- Dan

I checked out the Tivo HD specs...very impressive! Does Comcast currently offer multistream Cable Cards? If not, I remember reading that the first Cable Card is free, but the second one will cost you. Does anyone know how much per month?

I checked out the Tivo HD specs...very impressive! Does Comcast currently offer multistream Cable Cards? If not, I remember reading that the first Cable Card is free, but the second one will cost you. Does anyone know how much per month?

To comply with the July 1, FCC mandate that all new STB's must use Cable Cards, Comcast is using the Motorola dual tuner DCH6416 which only has 1 slot, an M-Card slot. So they must have M-Cards. I don't know if they are actually deploying the DCH6416 yet, or providing the M-Cards for customer owned boxes.

I would also like to know if they are, and if they charge the same as for a 1 tuner card.

To comply with the July 1, FCC mandate that all new STB's must use Cable Cards, Comcast is using the Motorola dual tuner DCH6416 which only has 1 slot, an M-Card slot. So they must have M-Cards. I don't know if they are actually deploying the DCH6416 yet, or providing the M-Cards for customer owned boxes.

I would also like to know if they are, and if they charge the same as for a 1 tuner card.

Currently, the M-Cards are not available to the public since they have to be matched up with the STB.

The DCH STB are available at most Comcast locations.

The M-CARD is pre-installed in the DCH STB, and is not swapable. if the card goes bad, you must take the whole STB unit in for complete replacement.

The M-Card is matched to the STB unit. This is currently done before the units are shipped from the regional Warehouse to the local area warehouse / office.


Hope that helps.

How does this M-card meet the FCC intent?

The cable companies seem to be working as hard as possible to skirt the FCC mandates.

jtm

How does this M-card meet the FCC intent?

The cable companies seem to be working as hard as possible to skirt the FCC mandates.

jtm

Because the security system is not built into the STB, it is on a removable card.

However, the M-Card is only going to work in the STB it has been matched up / paired with.


You will not be able to take the M-Card from one STB and stick it in another STB and expect the Card to Function.

The whole FCC mandate serves no purpose and is a complete waste of everyone's time.

How does this M-card meet the FCC intent?

The cable companies seem to be working as hard as possible to skirt the FCC mandates.

jtm


No...NO! Cable companies stalling a product rollout? Alert the media!!


:eek:

Seriously, one related question -- assuming they do start offering M-cards to the rest of us (which they should be soon, IMO) are these the ones that would allow units like the TiVo HD to utilize OnDemand?

-John

The DCH STB are available at most Comcast locations.


Does the DCH run the same firmware/guide version as the DCT? Is there any advantage at all in swapping a DCT for a DCH?

Scanpa, you haven't said much lately about the Comcast Tivo. If the software is being deployed in August in your region, you must have gotten your hands on it by now. Anything you can tell us?

Does the DCH run the same firmware/guide version as the DCT? Is there any advantage at all in swapping a DCT for a DCH?

Scanpa, you haven't said much lately about the Comcast Tivo. If the software is being deployed in August in your region, you must have gotten your hands on it by now. Anything you can tell us?

Yes, the guts of the STB are pretty much the same as the DCT series.

(It is the DCT XXXX phase 4)

I have moved on from comcast, back into the computer server business.

But last time I talked to the gang, we still do not have the software for the Reading Pa. Area.

If we get TiVo service by Xmas it will be a miracle.

No...NO! Cable companies stalling a product rollout? Alert the media!!


:eek:

Seriously, one related question -- assuming they do start offering M-cards to the rest of us (which they should be soon, IMO) are these the ones that would allow units like the TiVo HD to utilize OnDemand?

-John

See the underlined sections for the answer to your M-card question.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

CableCARD™ Overview
CableLabs® specifications define the interface between the CableCARD™ removable security module which separates the cable operator's proprietary conditional access system and the host device. Cable operators provide CableCARDs to subscribers. The cards provide secure access to encrypted digital cable programming. This separation of the host receiver from the conditional access function enables portability of retail host devices among cable networks throughout the country. For example, if a consumer purchases a set-top box or an integrated digital TV (DTV) in New York and then relocates to Los Angeles, that set-top box or integrated DTV will be operational on the new regional cable network.

CableCARD 1.0
The early cable removable security cards were called Point-of-Deployment (POD) modules. CableLabs later coined the term CableCARD™ and began describing the removable security devices as CableCARD security modules. The SCTE standards (ANSI/SCTE-28 and ANSI/SCTE-41) still use the term POD module. These are two names for the same thing.

From the very early specifications and draft standards, the CableCARD module has been a two-way device. That is, it included the functionality to enable two-way communication on the cable plant. This two-way communication is necessary for a variety of advanced cable services including video on demand (VOD), switched digital video (SDV), interactive services and applications.

The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices. [NOTE: See footnote 1.] This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability. However the manufacturers of digital TVs requested that a host standard be developed that only had one-way capability. This one-way cable-ready receiver was defined by the FCC's Plug & Play order and by the Joint Test Suite (JTS). It is the definition of this one-way receiver that lacks the ability for two-way functionality, not the CableCARD module. While the FCC defined the elements of the one-way cable-ready receiver, CableLabs continued to define specifications for two-way receivers.

When a CableCARD 1.0 module is used with a two-way receiver (e.g., Samsung HLR5067C) that card supports all the necessary two-way functionality for VOD, SDV, and other interactive services.

Multistream CableCARDs
Over the years, technology advanced and CableLabs updated the CableCARD module specifications to create Multistream CableCARDs. Multiple stream processing is required in, for example, PVRs that record and play at the same time, picture-in-picture (PIP), and picture-on-picture PoP) type applications.

The development of the replacement interface specification was originally called the Multistream CableCARD Interface Specification. It updated the security system to support triple-DES (3DES) or FIPS PUB 46-3, added support for up to 6 simultaneous transport streams, and made use of the serialized interface, similar to USB-2.0, to achieve lower host receiver costs and higher data transfer rates. While doing this, the card maintained the original PCMCIA physical interface for backward compatibility.

Before anyone actually implemented this new Multistream CableCARD Interface Specification, it was recognized that it repeated a large portion of the requirements in the original CableCARD 1.0 interface specification. Having two separate specifications with duplicate requirements meant a tough job keeping everything lined up as specification clarifications came in from implementing teams. To resolve this, CableLabs began the process of merging the original (single-stream) CableCARD 1.0 interface specification with the new Multistream card interface specification. This combined specification includes all requirements for both previous specifications and is known as the CableCARD Interface Specification 2.0 or CCIF-2.0. A companion document that combined the requirements of the copy-protection specifications also was developed and is known as the CableCARD Copy Protection Specification 2.0 or CCCP-2.0. It is anticipated that most cable operators will simply migrate to the Multistream CableCARDs for all CableCARD uses. Multistream CableCARDs will work, in a backwards compatible manner, in Hosts that were originally built to the single stream CableCARD standard.

CableCARD 2.0
These new CableCARD-2.0 specifications were issued on March 31, 2005; at the same time the former CCIF 1.0 and Multistream Card (M-Card™) specifications were closed. Along with this update, changes were made to all related OpenCable specifications to require use of the new CCIF-2.0 and CCCP-2.0 in all places that previously referenced the former specifications. Beginning June 6, 2005, all CableLabs certifications of OpenCable products have been tied to CableCARD-2.0 (or CCIF-2.0) specifications. As of that date, new Cards and new Hosts have been certified to support the CCIF-2.0 and CCCP-2.0 specifications.

CableCARD Terminology
Since CableCARD-2.0 Interface specifications now included all the requirements from both the original (single-stream) CableCARD interface and the new (multi-stream) CableCARD interface, terminology was developed to distinguish between the two different operating modes and product types:

S-CARD: A two-way CableCARD module that follows the original CableCARD 1.0 Interface specification or implements only the single-stream portion of the CableCARD-2.0 Interface specification.


M-Card: A two-way CableCARD module that implements all of the multi-stream functionality as well as the single-stream functionality (for backward compatibility purposes) of the CableCARD-2.0 Interface specification.


S-Mode: The operating mode of the interface when the original parallel transfer function is being used in single-stream mode, which limits the video transfer rate to 40 Mbps in each direction.


M-Mode: The operating mode of the interface when the new serial transfer function is being used, regardless of how many transport streams are actually being delivered, to provide up to 200 Mbps data transfer rate for the video stream in each direction.


S-Host: An OpenCable Host 2.0 device or UDCP that operates exclusively in the S-Mode, regardless of how many tuners are included.


M-Host: An OpenCable Host 2.0 device or UDCP that has implemented the M-Mode variation of the interface, regardless of how many tuners the device includes.

Migration to Multistream Support
There are four types of devices that can be authorized to use the CableCARD module interface. This electronic authorization comes in the form of digital certificates that are embedded within the Host receiving device that accepts a CableCARD module. In order to receive these digital certificates a manufacturer must sign a license and build a product according to certain requirements.

The first type of Host product that can make use of the CableCARD module is the Unidirectional Digital Cable Product (UDCP) or "Digital Cable-Ready Receiver." These products were defined by FCC rules. The license a manufacturer signs for such products is the DFAST license and the requirements are found in the Joint Test Suite Conformance Checklist: PICS Proforma. For more information, please see www.cablelabs.com.

A second type of Host product is an M-UDCP device or a unidirectional receiver that uses an M-Card operating in M-Mode. In other words, a product that supports multiple tuners with a single CableCARD.

The third type of Host product that can use the CableCARD module is the OpenCable Unidirectional Receiver (OCUR). The OCUR employs DRM technology (e.g., WMDRM and Real Helix), and is used to provide premium digital cable content to certain PCs. The PC itself must meet certain criteria established by the DRM provider, but is not certified separately by CableLabs. OCUR products are defined by CableLabs OpenCable specifications and the manufacturer must sign the CHILA license. The product must follow the requirements defined by the CableLabs OCUR specifications and DRI specifications. Presently these devices are required to support the S-Mode interface, but work is underway to extend their support to allow the M-Mode interface.

The fourth type of Host product that can make use of the CableCARD module is an OpenCable Host 2.0 device. This device is licensed by CableLabs under CHILA and the requirements for this product are found in the Host-CFR-2.0 specification. The main difference between this product and that which is defined by the FCC is the support for two-way functionality. The OpenCable Host 2.0 device specifications include all of the requirements necessary to support two-way cable services (e.g. video-on-demand or switched digital video), while UDCP devices do not. It is important to note that it is the receiver implementation that determines support for two-way services, not the functionality of the CableCARD module. All CableCARD modules are two-way capable.

The two-way OpenCable Host products originally were required to support the S-Mode interface and were exclusively an S-Host. The first two-way OpenCable products certified followed these requirements. Later requirements were changed for OpenCable devices mandating the M-Mode interface as a baseline.

Compatibility and Backward Compatibility of CableCARD Modules and Host Devices
Care was taken in the development of the multistream interface specification to ensure full backward compatibility. This is achieved by specific requirements on both the Host side and the Card side of the interface.

First it was established that the CableCARD module takes responsibility for operating in both modes, depending on the capabilities of the Host. This means that every M-Card is required to be able to operate equally in both the S-Mode and in the M-Mode and to be capable of sensing the capabilities of the Host.

When an M-Card is inserted into an S-Host, the CableCARD module will sense that the Host is designed for the S-Mode and will follow the S-Mode protocol. From the Host perspective, the CableCARD module will look and function like any other S-Card.

If that same M-Card is inserted into an M-Host, the CableCARD module senses that the Host is designed for the M-Mode and follows the M-Mode protocols, using the latest 3DES security and enabling the faster transport speeds capable of supporting multiple tuners.

This backward compatibility provision of the CableCARD module permits cable operators to migrate smoothly to an exclusive inventory of M-Cards that will be used for all products, with no further need to purchase or inventory older S-Cards.

Placing the backward compatibility burdens on the CableCARD modules assists Host manufacturers by freeing them from any obligation to include redundant or unnecessary circuitry while allowing them to take full advantage of the lower cost hardware design of the M-Mode interface.

Two-Way Functionality of CableCARDs and Host Devices
The ability to support two-way and interactive cable services such as VOD and SDV is a responsibility shared between the CableCARD module and the Host. There are circuits and functionalities needed on both sides of the CableCARD module interface to complete the connection and to enable full two-way signaling.

First, it is important to understand how two-way cable communication works at a high level. The two-way communications are broken down into the downstream and upstream directions. The downstream communication path describes the messages that flow from the cable headend to the subscriber device and the upstream communications are those that flow from the subscriber device back (up) to the headend. From the cable headend perspective, downstream = talking, while upstream = listening. From the subscriber equipment perspective, downstream is for listening and upstream is for talking.

All UDPC devices, M-UDCP devices, OpenCable Host devices and CableCARD modules support downstream channels, but only CableCARD modules and OpenCable Host 2.0 devices support upstream channels.

There are three distinct languages (or protocols) that are used on cable systems for the two-way communications: (1) Aloha (the protocol, defined by the ANSI/SCTE 55-1 standard, used by Motorola systems); (2) DAVIC (the protocol, defined by the ANSI/SCTE 55-2 standard, used by Scientific Atlanta systems); and (3) DSG (the protocol, defined by the ANSI/SCTE-106 DOCSIS Set-top Gateway standard, used by a variety of cable systems). All three protocols transmit their upstream signals on channels in the 5 MHz to 42 MHz frequency band. In order for a Host to support two-way services on any cable system, it must be capable of transmitting upstream signals using any of the three protocols. Only products compliant with the OpenCable Host 2.0 specifications include the transmitters capable of supporting all three upstream protocols. Products built to the Plug & Play or Digital Cable Ready (DCR) FCC requirements are unidirectional only, and do not include these transmitters and are unable to support two-way services.

On the other hand, CableCARD modules always were designed to support two-way functionality, including the original CableCARD 1.0 interface specifications. The CableCARD module includes the knowledge of the upstream transmission standards and protocols used by each cable operator and is able to format and prepare messages for that protocol. Those upstream messages are sent to the Host device for transmission (when so equipped). The upstream transmitter also is under the complete control of the CableCARD module to set frequency and output power. CableCARD modules are equipped to recognize the presence of these upstream transmitters in an OpenCable Host device and to use them as necessary. They also are able to detect the absence of this transmitter in a unidirectional Host and to operate in a one-way mode.

1 For example: (1) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia; (2) “A CableCard That Hasn't Been Able to Kill the Set-Top Box,” Eric A. Taub, The New York Times, 2006-07-03; (3) CableCARD: A Primer, Nate Anderson , ars technica 2006-02-06; (4) FAQ: CableCard? What's that?, Richard Shim and Jim Hu, CNET (2005-01-05). [back]

2 CS Docket 97-80 Second Report and Order, Adopted: September 10, 2003. [back]


NOTE: For all the hot links, go to the web site.

I have an M-card in a tivo Series 3. There is no software yet for it (although there already is in the Tivo that costs $500 less than mine). It's a moto card through Comcast Chicago.

Wow, this is getting interesting. It looks like TiVo offers a multi-service discount that would reduce the service by $6/month. I have a Liftime Service on an S2 that is still in use on a SD set in the house. If I read their offer correctly, this would mean getting service on a new HD TiVo would only run me $6.95 per month.
Correct, at least in my case - in fact, the $7/month "multi-user" option was the only one given to me when I added my S3 to my existing lifetime S2 on my account.

-- Don

Does anyone know how the technical specs of the HD TiVo compare to the Comcast/Motorola DCT3412I?

I am specifically interested in Front End sensitivity. The signal level here is marginal and tends to drift low during the heat of the day resulting in lots of pixelation and dropped channels. Comcast has struggled resolving this.

Secondly I am curious in the quality of the Analog tuner section. The picture quality of the Analog channels from my DCT3412 sux at best.

Does anyone know how the technical specs of the HD TiVo compare to the Comcast/Motorola DCT3412I?

I am specifically interested in Front End sensitivity. The signal level here is marginal and tends to drift low during the heat of the day resulting in lots of pixelation and dropped channels. Comcast has struggled resolving this.

Secondly I am curious in the quality of the Analog tuner section. The picture quality of the Analog channels from my DCT3412 sux at best.


The 3412 has no analog tuner, so your channels are all digital.

On the other question it's probably weather releated I am on Cox in Omaha Nebraska and some of my channels come in and go out depending on the outside temps.

ajwees41

So both HD Tivo versions will also use the digital version of all channels if available?

The 3412 has no analog tuner, so your channels are all digital.

On the other question it's probably weather releated I am on Cox in Omaha Nebraska and some of my channels come in and go out depending on the out temps.

ajwees41

So both HD Tivo versions will also use the digital version of all channels if available?


They should.

ajwees41

I'm going to wait and see how people like the new Tivo HD box, and if it isn't universally hated, I'm going to buy one. I am sick and tired of waiting on Comcast to roll out their mythical Tivo software.

I'm going to wait and see how people like the new Tivo HD box, and if it isn't universally hated, I'm going to buy one. I am sick and tired of waiting on Comcast to roll out their mythical Tivo software.

Ditto.

The 3412 has no analog tuner, so your channels are all digital.

ajwees41

Ahh I wish that were true. Maybe Comcast buys a special version for our area here in San Jose Ca, but it definitely has an analog section for all the basic channels. It does convert them to an all digital output signal, and does a very poor job of it.

Ahh I wish that were true. Maybe Comcast buys a special version for our area here in San Jose Ca, but it definitely has an analog section for all the basic channels. It does convert them to an all digital output signal, and does a very poor job of it.
You're probably in a digital simulcast area, the 3412 has no analog tuners.

The 64xx is the combo analog / digital tuner

the 34xx is a complete digital only tuner.

Ahh I wish that were true. Maybe Comcast buys a special version for our area here in San Jose Ca, but it definitely has an analog section for all the basic channels. It does convert them to an all digital output signal, and does a very poor job of it.
Just because channel 2 comes in on channel 2 on your box doesn't mean that it isn't digital. If you have a 3412/16 it's digital all the way. That doesn't mean it's HD or anything like that. My channel 2 looks pretty decent, most of the time. My channel 702 looks damned good all of the time.

To comply with the July 1, FCC mandate that all new STB's must use Cable Cards......The FCC does NOT mandate cablecards. It mandates that no STB placed in service (for the first time) after July 1 can have imbedded security. Cableco's are using cablecards to comply with that mandate until DCAS becomes a reality. At that time cablecards will begin to disappear and downloadable security will become the standard. That is one reason we may not see many retail STBs, other than Tivo, in the near term.

As for M-Cards, they are simply multistream capable. That means you only need one for a dual-tuner STB (instead of the current 2) and AFAIK has nothing to do with VOD, PPV, etc., as RussB's post points out.

I'm going to wait and see how people like the new Tivo HD box, and if it isn't universally hated, I'm going to buy one. I am sick and tired of waiting on Comcast to roll out their mythical Tivo software.


Ditto.

X3

We made the jump to Comcast to get HDTV this spring, abandoning out DirecTivo. We miss the DirecTV a great deal. My wife and I are sick and tired of the crappy Comcast MOT box we have and we are tired of waiting for the Tivo software of Comcast. I just ordered by Tivo S3 Lite box this morning.

Video of Comcast/Tivo interface - http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-25635.html

Review of new Tivo HD - http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-video-recorders-dvrs/tivo-hd/4505-6474_7-32511935.html?tag=nl.e501

Video of Comcast/Tivo interface - http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-25635.html

This is 6+ months old...

This is 6+ months old...
Interesting. I didn't notice it was old. I hadn't seen it yet. The one really cool thing I liked is that On-Demand programming shows up in searches just the same as regular shows. That's an interesting (and smart) way to use the On-Demand stuff.

So I guess when the guy in the video says "spring" he means this PAST spring... Grrr... Thanks Comcast! You suck. :(

This is 6+ months old...

Well, you can't blame him. We may not survive to see this live.

We should hear something solid in the next three weeks.

We should hear something solid regarding another delay in the next three weeks.

Fixed it for ya. ;)

expected Comcast - Tivo PR

"when we reported release as 2nd half '06 we meant 3006"

Tivo collects $13/month on their own boxes, and reportedly less than $1 a month on Comcast/Tivo subscriptions., We all know how delayed the Comcast/Tivo has been.

That couldn't have been a motivation to get the new "mass market" Tivo HD out, before the Comcast Tivo option was deployed. Right?

Tivo collects $13/month on their own boxes, and reportedly less than $1 a month on Comcast/Tivo subscriptions., We all know how delayed the Comcast/Tivo has been.

That couldn't have been a motivation to get the new "mass market" Tivo HD out, before the Comcast Tivo option was deployed. Right?

It's hard to collect a singe dollar on something that isn't yet available, and the pricing hasn't been announced yet.

Having said that, even if Comcast were to only collect $1 per box 1) there's no reason your alleged $1/box amount couldn't change, and 2) you don't know how many Comcast customers will upgrade to the Tivo option, and 3) the S3 Lite hardware involves manufacturing, marketing and development costs for Tivo, whereas the Comcast option has a fixed development cost that basically remains the same no matter how many subscribe; it will pay of over years whereas hardware has a fixed life. It is easily the most profitable (ROI) option for Tivo. They need revenue NOW. I doubt they have delayed the Comcast launch due to the S3 Lite.

It's hard to collect a singe dollar on something that isn't yet available, and the pricing hasn't been announced yet.

Having said that, even if Comcast were to only collect $1 per box 1) there's no reason your alleged $1/box amount couldn't change, and 2) you don't know how many Comcast customers will upgrade to the Tivo option, and 3) the S3 Lite hardware involves manufacturing, marketing and development costs for Tivo, whereas the Comcast option has a fixed development cost that basically remains the same no matter how many subscribe; it will pay of over years whereas hardware has a fixed life. It is easily the most profitable (ROI) option for Tivo. They need revenue NOW. I doubt they have delayed the Comcast launch due to the S3 Lite.
I don't know about the veracity of km's claim, but I think the point was that TiVo collects only $1 of whatever Comcast decides to charge per subscriber, not that Comcast would only collect $1 per box.

1) True, it could change, but unless this is for some kind of trial period for Tivo, where the pricing terms will change to a predetermined amount, Comcast is the company in the strong bargaining position.

2) True, the volume of Comcast subscribers that opt for the Tivo interface could make the development costs to change the interface for Comcast profitable for Tivo. I think that would ultimately be Tivo's hope, and perhaps an initial/fixed payment Comcast might have made to Tivo has made it already true.

3) I haven't seen a breakdown by iSuppli or anything, but I would imagine the Tivo HD has a profit margin above 0%, meaning they are making at least some money on the hardware. At $8-17/mo per Tivo subscriber, versus (allegedly) $1/mo per Comcast subscriber, I can't see a way that the Comcast subscriber is more profitable for Tivo than the Tivo subscriber/owner, long- or short-term.

You're right, they WILL make money on the S3 and the ridiculous $15/month subscriptions, but it is painfully obvious that both are overpriced. For Tivo to survive long-term they need to sell far more than they're selling now. My point is that as more Comcast customers take a hold of the software (an eventually Cox, etc.), Tivo;s production costs will remain relatively fixed and profits go up proportionally, where as Tivo would take a financial hit to ramp up production to build more S3/S3 lites. Where do you think all the subsidy from these FREE S2 units are coming from?

Just look at Microsoft versus IBM. Simply put, which would you rather sell, hardware or software? Tivo's long-term growth is in the service market, not the hardware market.

i don't know about you guys, but i'm going back to bunny ears and vcr's.




....:)

You're right, they WILL make money on the S3 and the ridiculous $15/month subscriptions, but it is painfully obvious that both are overpriced. For Tivo to survive long-term they need to sell far more than they're selling now. My point is that as more Comcast customers take a hold of the software (an eventually Cox, etc.), Tivo;s production costs will remain relatively fixed and profits go up proportionally, where as Tivo would take a financial hit to ramp up production to build more S3/S3 lites. Where do you think all the subsidy from these FREE S2 units are coming from?

Just look at Microsoft versus IBM. Simply put, which would you rather sell, hardware or software? Tivo's long-term growth is in the service market, not the hardware market.

If you control the HW, and can make the whole HW/SW combo a great user experience, you can also do well. Look at Apple, iPod.

Interesting. I didn't notice it was old. I hadn't seen it yet. The one really cool thing I liked is that On-Demand programming shows up in searches just the same as regular shows. That's an interesting (and smart) way to use the On-Demand stuff.

So I guess when the guy in the video says "spring" he means this PAST spring... Grrr... Thanks Comcast! You suck. :(

The last screenshots of the interface were seen about six months ago. Since then Comcast has integrated their new banner ads into the program guide, etc.

It's really quite annoying to have half of your program guide blocked out by stupid Comcast ads. I expect them to push Tivo to do something similar with the Tivo software that is going to be downloadable to the Moto boxes at the end of the year.

Basically the big advantage of the future Comcast/Tivo pairing is that you won't have to buy a box, you will still get On Demand and other future services (Switched Digital Video channels, etc). The drawbacks are likely to be slower interface (since the Tivo runs through Java it will run much slower than it does on their native boxen) no expandable storage, no Tivo-To-Go or Multi-Room-Viewing (both supposed to be coming to the new Tivo HD this fall).

Basically the only thing that should prevent people from getting the HD Tivo at $299 (other than price) is the fear that SDV will render future channels unwatchable, or that they use the on-demand and PPV features of their current box.

Basically the only thing that should prevent people from getting the HD Tivo at $299 (other than price) is the fear that SDV will render future channels unwatchable, or that they use the on-demand and PPV features of their current box.

ONLY Price, SDV, on-demand, and PPV? Seems like pretty big issues. If I had to pick one that I could live without it would be PPV. The other 3 are showstoppers.

Comcast and TiVo are working on a way to replace the existing Ad within the recorded show.

Here is more on it...

http://www.engadget.com/2005/04/06/comcast-and-tivo-want-to-insert-new-ads-into-old-tv-shows/

Since Ads are not going away this does seem like a less intrusive method to present a more recent and targeted ad. And it will remain within the recorded show just as an ad today does.

So, you can still Fast Forward through it.

after waiting a year for the Comcast version with the Tivo interface, I've thrown in the towel. The Tivo HD at $300 tipped me over the line. I'm tired of the Comcast DVR recording the same show I've watched over and over, the freezes, the inability to do remote scheduling even though Comcast is my ISR.

after waiting a year for the Comcast version with the Tivo interface, I've thrown in the towel. The Tivo HD at $300 tipped me over the line. I'm tired of the Comcast DVR recording the same show I've watched over and over, the freezes, the inability to do remote scheduling even though Comcast is my ISR.

Same here! My TiVo HD arrives in a couple of days and my Comcast appointment to fit the cable cards is for next Wednesday. :D

It will be ecstatic going back to a true TiVo interface! Every day using the DCT3416 DVR just leaves me pining for the TiVo Series 2 I dumped all those years ago, but the dual HD tuners of the DCTxxxx machines were too hard to resist.

PPV and OnDemand are irrelevant to me. The TiVo HD price and subscriptions cost is something I'm more than willing to swallow to get back to DVR nirvana. SDV is something I'll evaluate when it eventually arrives! I'm perfectly happy with the channel coverage I get now. I'm already recording as much TV as I care to watch!

I'll keep watching how Comcast's DVR offerings evolve. If the DVRs get less buggy and annoying when the TiVo interface finally arrives and SDV offers something I absolutely have to have, I can always get another Comcast DVR. The TiVo HD will still have it's uses. :D

Comcast and TiVo are working on a way to replace the existing Ad within the recorded show.

Here is more on it...

http://www.engadget.com/2005/04/06/comcast-and-tivo-want-to-insert-new-ads-into-old-tv-shows/

Since Ads are not going away this does seem like a less intrusive method to present a more recent and targeted ad. And it will remain within the recorded show just as an ad today does.

So, you can still Fast Forward through it.

that link is almost 2 and a half years old..

that link is almost 2 and a half years old..

Yeah... And you point is?

When do you think Comcast and TiVo made the deal to put TiVo software on the Comcast STB?

Here is another link for you...

http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/03/comcast_and_tiv.html

The ignorance in these forums is unreal.

that link is almost 2 and a half years old..
And the Comcast - Tivo announcement is even older (http://news.com.com/TiVo,+Comcast+reach+DVR+deal/2100-1041_3-5616961.html -- see the line where it says mid-late 2006 release). With as mum as they have been, we're kind of stuck resorting to old info while waiting. I think I may be picking up one of the Tivo HDs as soon as my local CC gets them in.

It's really quite annoying to have half of your program guide blocked out by stupid Comcast ads.It is only 20% here. I sure does suck to live where you live. ;)

Yeah... And you point is?

When do you think Comcast and TiVo made the deal to put TiVo software on the Comcast STB?

Here is another link for you...

http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2005/03/comcast_and_tiv.html

The ignorance in these forums is unreal.

I think he was just pointing out that your information was very old, as is all the information about the Tivo interface. Relax, dude.

just to throw fuel on the fire, CC has the TivoHD for $219 with an available $40 off coupon. :)

just to throw fuel on the fire, CC has the TivoHD for $219 with an available $40 off coupon. :)

Its not about the razor..its the razor blades. ;)

Its not about the razor..its the razor blades. ;)

The store is selling these at a loss and not getting anything from Tivo when you activate service so I'm not sure that methodology works.

just to throw fuel on the fire, CC has the TivoHD for $219 with an available $40 off coupon. :)

Keep in mind that the $40 off coupon is not a guarenteed thing as;

1. You aren't supposed to be able to use it on a promotional item, which the Tivo is (it's only available at $258 online and is marked as a promotion)

2. You aren't supposed to be able to print the $40 coupon yourself, although many have and had success, it will be the stores discretion on whether to accept it.

Having said all that, yes, I got my HD Tivo for $218.

I think the point is that the Comcast Tivo is at serious risk of missing its market due to the roll out delay. Had this thing been out 6 months ago, it might have been a huge hit. With other options now hitting the market with a more palatable initial cost outlay, its really losing its luster.

I think the point is that the Comcast Tivo is at serious risk of missing its market due to the roll out delay. Had this thing been out 6 months ago, it might have been a huge hit. With other options now hitting the market with a more palatable initial cost outlay, its really losing its luster.

No way. What "other options" are there ? There's the new TiVoHD for the folks who want to own their gear, and the ComcasTiVo for the folks that simply want to rent. There aren't any other competing boxes out there by any other manufacturers that hold a candle to either of those platforms.

But I can get a TivoHD today. I cannot get a Comcast Tivo today.

But I can get a TivoHD today. I cannot get a Comcast Tivo today.

Sure, but I don't see how the TiVoHD being available today is going to cannibalize future ComcasTiVo prospects that much. They cater to two slightly different markets.

The ComcasTiVo retains PPV, VOD and SDV (should that come into play), offers a somewhat limited TiVo software suite, and is targeted towards folks who'd rather rent than own the box.

The TiVoHD and Series3 bring the full TiVo software suite into play (including network and eSATA functions), does not do PPV or VOD and requires a cash outlay up front.

Sure, but I don't see how the TiVoHD being available today is going to cannibalize future ComcasTiVo prospects that much. They cater to two slightly different markets.

I disagree. I've been waiting for ComcasTiVo for a long, long time. Or at least it feels like it. I'm at the point now where if I see a TiVoHD for under $250 I'll buy it.

I don't care about PPV or VOD. I'm a little worried about SDV, but the likelyhood of an external drive offsets that somewhat.

Either solution would be vastly better than the crap I'm renting from Comcast now. TivoHD I can get now. ComcasTivo, I'd be amazed to see it here in the next 6 months, and more likely 12.

I disagree. I've been waiting for ComcasTiVo for a long, long time. Or at least it feels like it. I'm at the point now where if I see a TiVoHD for under $250 I'll buy it.

I don't care about PPV or VOD. I'm a little worried about SDV, but the likelyhood of an external drive offsets that somewhat.

Either solution would be vastly better than the crap I'm renting from Comcast now. TivoHD I can get now. ComcasTivo, I'd be amazed to see it here in the next 6 months, and more likely 12.

Well, then today's your lucky day. There are deals in place that can get you a TiVoHD today for less than $250. How does $217 at Circuit City sound ? Check it out HERE (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=18&threadid=749519&highlight_key=y&keyword1=Circuit+City+%2440)

Well, then today's your lucky day. There are deals in place that can get you a TiVoHD today for less than $250. How does $217 at Circuit City sound ? Check it out HERE (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=18&threadid=749519&highlight_key=y&keyword1=Circuit+City+%2440)Just be advised that not all Circuit City stores honor those illegal coupons. The coupons themselves state no reproduction or duplication. These are coupons that have been sent to selected customers and are not meant to be reproduced. Even the ones being sold on eBay include the caveat that they may not be accepted. However, many have had success, so YMMV. :)

A $200 TivoHD is very attractive, but I'll pass until I see what is going to happen with SDV. Hopefully that question will be answered in time for Christmas sales which may even be sub-$200. If not for the SDV question, this is now at the price-point where even I would be ready to jump on the Tivo bandwagon. Still, I am considering it as a bedroom unit where SDV might not be a "real" problem.

Well, then today's your lucky day. There are deals in place that can get you a TiVoHD today for less than $250. How does $217 at Circuit City sound ? Check it out HERE (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/messageview.php?catid=18&threadid=749519&highlight_key=y&keyword1=Circuit+City+%2440)

This deal is dead as CC has put the price of the Tivo HD back to $299 as of today.

Fine. So the Circuit City deals have come and gone. Big deal. These deals tend to come and go anyways. Best to jump on 'em when they're live.

Still, the difference between $299 and $250 is negligible at best, even for the fence-sitters. I have a hard time trying to rationalize how someone could jump at a $250 TiVoHD, yet not jump on a $299 TiVoHD. Makes no sense to me at all...

Many of the people who have been hesitating on a Series 3 Tivo have not been doing it solely because of the box cost.

Cable company incomptency, charging rip off prices for cable card service, and Tivo's own exhorbitant rates are all additional factors that are slowing the adoption of Tivo service over the stuff the cable companies offer.

Many of the people who have been hesitating on a Series 3 Tivo have not been doing it solely because of the box cost.

Cable company incomptency, charging rip off prices for cable card service, and Tivo's own exhorbitant rates are all additional factors that are slowing the adoption of Tivo service over the stuff the cable companies offer.

A few of your "points" are items of perception that are not backed by reality.

Sure, the anti-TiVo folks loved to tout the Series3's $799 MSRP. The reality is that you can easily find the Series3 for around $500, and the TiVoHD for around $250. There's a world of difference between $800 and $250.

As for TiVo's "exorbitant" rates, I call BS. If I went down to me local Comcast office to pick up an SA 8300 (which I've already been subjected to, BTW), it'd cost me around $15/month. TiVo's monthly service fee is $12.95. How is that "exorbitant" ? Especially since the fee you're paying actually nets you a superior product and service...

Comcast just raised its prices to $12.95, so the fees are now the same, except with the TiVo you may also need to rent CableCards... for me that's an additional $2.75 for the TiVo over the Comcast DVR. I wouldn't call it "exorbitant" -- just "higher".

Comcast just raised its prices to $12.95, so the fees are now the same, except with the TiVo you may also need to rent CableCards... for me that's an additional $2.75 for the TiVo over the Comcast DVR. I wouldn't call it "exorbitant" -- just "higher".I pay $18 for the box and $5 for the service, so consider yourself lucky. The ONLY thing keeping me from moving to Tivo is SDV and I'm not sure that should stop me. I believe cablecards here are $3.00 x 2, so I could save $4/mo (more if I pay for a year of Tivo service up front I believe). Though Paul and I have had our differences and I don't have the same issues he does with the 8300/SARA, I'm very close to joining him as a Tivo sub this fall. I am still stubborn about my feelings towards Tivo as a company now wooing cable when they are in financial straights, but there comes a time when the $ savings outweight that. :)

Many of the people who have been hesitating on a Series 3 Tivo have not been doing it solely because of the box cost. Cable company incomptency, charging rip off prices for cable card service, and Tivo's own exhorbitant rates are all additional factors that are slowing the adoption of Tivo service over the stuff the cable companies offer.

It's also a function of how you use the box. If you don't do much series recording, for instance, Tivo's software is much less of a factor...

Listen guys-before you jump on the new TivoHD, go to the forum for TiVo to see the problems people (virtually all) are having getting the 2nd cable card to work. There's some type of flaw that needs to be corrected first. I'm waiting for this as I'm not going to go through what everybody else has with this box. Once fixed I'll jump on it although I would still rather have the S3.

I pay $18 for the box and $5 for the service, so consider yourself lucky.

For what service?

Listen guys-before you jump on the new TivoHD, go to the forum for TiVo to see the problems people (virtually all) are having getting the 2nd cable card to work. There's some type of flaw that needs to be corrected first. I'm waiting for this as I'm not going to go through what everybody else has with this box. Once fixed I'll jump on it although I would still rather have the S3.

The problem was with scientific atlanta cable cards and Tivo just issued a software update last night which fixed the issue.

Cheers!

A few of your "points" are items of perception that are not backed by reality.

Sure, the anti-TiVo folks loved to tout the Series3's $799 MSRP. The reality is that you can easily find the Series3 for around $500, and the TiVoHD for around $250. There's a world of difference between $800 and $250.

As for TiVo's "exorbitant" rates, I call BS. If I went down to me local Comcast office to pick up an SA 8300 (which I've already been subjected to, BTW), it'd cost me around $15/month. TiVo's monthly service fee is $12.95. How is that "exorbitant" ? Especially since the fee you're paying actually nets you a superior product and service...

Not backed by reality?

I just got off of my 4th call in trying to get Comcast scheduled to install Cable Cards on my Tivo. While not Tivos fault, this type of thing will cause many customers to say "it's not worth the bother" and stay with the cable company DVR.

As far as cost goes. Don't go there. The Cable company DVR is rented to me for $10 a month. To rent the Tivo it will cost me $200+ for the Tivo, +1.50 for cable cards, +7.00 per month "2nd outlet" charge that Comcast won't budge on +16.99 monthly service for Tivo unless I want to commit to a three year contract. Additionally I lose SDV channels, on-demand and PPV in going to the Tivo.

I've had a Tivo in the past and like their software, but the fanaticism of some Tivo owners and their attitude that the cable company DVR isn't a bargain at any price is just silly.

Some of us just don't watch that much TV. :p

To rent the Tivo it will cost me $200+ for the Tivo, ....

Correction: "To OWN"

Correction: "To OWN"

That's true. On the other hand the cheaply leased cable company DVR basically comes with a free lifetime of upgrades, swapouts, etc.

If my Tivo breaks I have to fix it myself or replace it out of pocket.

I just got off of my 4th call in trying to get Comcast scheduled to install Cable Cards on my Tivo. While not Tivos fault, this type of thing will cause many customers to say "it's not worth the bother" and stay with the cable company DVR.

As you noted, not TiVo's problem. Comcast is still struggling with implementation issues with CableCARDs, but it appears they're finally starting to shape up in that regard. Don't forget that new cableco DVRs have CableCARDs embedded in them now, and can fall victim to the same issues as the HD TiVo units.

As far as cost goes. Don't go there. The Cable company DVR is rented to me for $10 a month. To rent the Tivo it will cost me $200+ for the Tivo, +1.50 for cable cards, +7.00 per month "2nd outlet" charge that Comcast won't budge on +16.99 monthly service for Tivo unless I want to commit to a three year contract. Additionally I lose SDV channels, on-demand and PPV in going to the Tivo.

Comcast pricing varies from market to market. It would cost me significantly more ($15/month) to rent the absolutely craptacular SA 8300 w/ SARA in my area than my S3's service fee ($8.30/month) and CableCARD rental ($1.75 total for both cards) and no 2nd outlet charge. Please try to not paint with such a wide brush next time in specifying Comcast charges. Your area may suck for TiVo friendliness, but mine doesn't. As I said, it varies per area.

I pay $18 for the box and $5 for the service, so consider yourself lucky. The ONLY thing keeping me from moving to Tivo is SDV and I'm not sure that should stop me. I believe cablecards here are $3.00 x 2, so I could save $4/mo (more if I pay for a year of Tivo service up front I believe). Though Paul and I have had our differences and I don't have the same issues he does with the 8300/SARA, I'm very close to joining him as a Tivo sub this fall. I am still stubborn about my feelings towards Tivo as a company now wooing cable when they are in financial straights, but there comes a time when the $ savings outweight that. :)

I knew you'd finally wise up, Dave, and cave in... :)