Comcast DCT - 34xx & 64xx series STB w/ TiVo Software.


Lets talk about the upcomming release of the TiVo based software that will be used in Comcast Motorola DCT 34xx & 64xx series STB.

When do you expect this software will hit the street?

Ron

In another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7736152&&#post7736152), scanpa said that beta testing would begin in July.

I for one, can't wait until the TiVo software is available. In particular, the conflict resolution and cancelled recordings "features" of the TiVo s/w are better. I know season passes are more flexible, but the 6412 has been doing an OK job for me in this regard. Wishlists would be nice.

My big question is which feature set are we going to get? Will we get full TiVo functionality or a reduced feature set ala DirecTV? If we get all the features like MRV, online scheduling, and media stuff then I will gladly pay extra for the TiVo s/w. If all we get is season passes and wishlists, then I will be tempted to just stick with iGuide and save $10+ every month.

Also, will the 6412 w/ TiVo be able to do OnDemand? If so, then there will be little reason for me to get the Series 3 box.

The big advantage that a good workable Comcast/Tivo would have over a Series 3 Tivo is simply cost. The Series 3 Tivo is expected to be much more expensive per month. Any information on how Comcast will conduct the Beta?

I sure hope it supports networking as I use this feature to pipe music from my computer to my HT sound system.

The big advantage that a good workable Comcast/Tivo would have over a Series 3 Tivo is simply cost. The Series 3 Tivo is expected to be much more expensive per month.
Much more expensive? I was thinking it might be $3-5/mo difference. The 6412 w/ iGuide is $10/mo and TiVo should be more ($15?). Standalone is $17-$20/mo so that's only a premium of $2-5/mo. Where you could argue it will be more expensive is on the upfront costs since you have to purchase a Series 3.

But still, I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples here. The Series 3 won't be able to do OnDemand and PPV on cable, but I don't know if the 6412 w/TiVo will have MRV, Online and other networking features. There may be plenty of other trade-offs besides the monthly cost.

We have no idea what the monthly cost will be for the Series 3, nor the initial purchase price.

On the other hand, the S3 will do OTA (both NTSC and ATSC); this might be advantageous if one has both cable and an OTA antenna. The S3 will also have a larger hard drive from the sound of things.

We have no idea what the monthly cost will be for the Series 3, nor the initial purchase price.

On the other hand, the S3 will do OTA (both NTSC and ATSC); this might be advantageous if one has both cable and an OTA antenna. The S3 will also have a larger hard drive from the sound of things.
I would bet the S3 will have the same monthly price as the other TiVo's, as the monthly price is applicable to the TiVo SERVICE, not leasing the box, although with TiVo's new pricing structure who knows.

If one has Cable, there isn't much need for OTA unless it is a VERY OLD cable system and they aren't even running networks in HD.

We have no idea what the monthly cost will be for the Series 3, nor the initial purchase price.
But isn't that the purpose of these forums? to endlessly speculate about things we don't know for sure? :) But more to the point, does anyone think that they will price the monthly service differently?

On the other hand, the S3 will do OTA (both NTSC and ATSC); this might be advantageous if one has both cable and an OTA antenna. The S3 will also have a larger hard drive from the sound of things.
OTA could be an advantage, but I would guess most cable companies are like mine and offer all the OTA channels with basic service. If your cable company does HD-lite or something, OTA could be a big difference.

The ability to upgrade the series 3 would be huge, especially if the eSATA ports are active for free and the 6412 is still closed (both internal and USB ports off).

If all we get is season passes and wishlists, then I will be tempted to just stick with iGuide and save $10+ every month.
I hear the difference will be $5/mo. I also recall reading somewhere that it would be the same price as we are currently paying, but if we kept IGuide it would decrease $5; I find this hard to believe, though, as Comcast never lowers prices. I expect Tivo to be $5 more than we are paying now.

Count me as one of the folks awaiting the TiVo rollout.

I'm in Harper Woods, MI, which is technically metro Detroit, but I seem to be receiving service from Comcast of Macomb (Macomb County, which is just less than half a mile north). So if any Comcast of Macomb, Oakland, or Detroit folks have heard anything about the TiVo rollout, I'd love to hear about it.

I just moved off of DirecTV (and my old DirecTiVo) to Comcast and their HD service on Friday, and even three and a half days has been enough for me to seriously miss the TiVo's interface. My installer had no clue about the TiVo rollout - he hadn't heard anything about it. However, that may not be too surprising - he admited that he was not very technical when it came to AV connections (we had a discussion about coax vs. composite vs. component where that information came out), etc.

So, if anyone from the metro Detroit area hears anything, give a shout. :)

I hear the difference will be $5/mo. I also recall reading somewhere that it would be the same price as we are currently paying, but if we kept IGuide it would decrease $5; I find this hard to believe, though, as Comcast never lowers prices. I expect Tivo to be $5 more than we are paying now.

Yes, the upgraded DVR service Tier w/ TiVo will be $14.95 per Month versus the current DVR service fee of $9.95 per Month.

and yes both prices will be going up by end of the year. I would guess after X-mas / Jab 2007 area.

have heard $12.95 for I-GUIDE (Basic DVR service Tier)
and $17.95 for TiVo (Advanced DVR service Tier)

as always STB rental cost not included. Most are now covered in the cost of the Digital Packages.

I would bet the S3 will have the same monthly price as the other TiVo's, as the monthly price is applicable to the TiVo SERVICE, not leasing the box, although with TiVo's new pricing structure who knows.
Since the new service prices are now, essentially, a hardware subsidy, I don't think we can be certain. But you could be right.
If one has Cable, there isn't much need for OTA unless it is a VERY OLD cable system and they aren't even running networks in HD.
Does your cable system carry subchannels? Mine does not, and in some cases the subchannels actually have interesting content.

I'm not certain whether cable systems transmit the local HD channels in full quality (both resolution and bitrate) either, but that may not be an issue.

Comcast of Hershey PA does have some of the local HD Ch. subch. available.

Comcast does not change the Bitrate of the Local HD Channels. It is the same as the local OTA feed. but the local Network does lower it down from the network input of 45 to about 10 - 20 output at the local OTA point....

I'm not certain whether cable systems transmit the local HD channels in full quality (both resolution and bitrate) either, but that may not be an issue.
We are still on the old 700 mhz system, which will be upgraded within 2-3 months, and we receive full resolution and bitrate HD network programming, so unless your cable company is on a REALLY old system or is just trying to cram 300 digital channels onto an old 700 mhz system i think the local HD channels should be OTA quality.

My little question is will the existing boxes have enough horse power (processor speed, memory) to run TiVo?

We are still on the old 700 mhz system, which will be upgraded within 2-3 months, and we receive full resolution and bitrate HD network programming, so unless your cable company is on a REALLY old system or is just trying to cram 300 digital channels onto an old 700 mhz system i think the local HD channels should be OTA quality.
Fair enough -- I really had no idea. Plus, D* has conditioned me to downrezzed HD. :)

In general, Comcast passes HD without image reduction. There are exceptions, e.g. some of the old AT&T systems.

My little question is will the existing boxes have enough horse power (processor speed, memory) to run TiVo?

Yes, the 64xxp3 & 34xxP1 & p2 Have the upgraded CPU, plus a new instruction set will be used and installed via the new Firmware series 14.xx this also will install the OCAP drivers......

Yes, the upgraded DVR service Tier w/ TiVo will be $14.95 per Month versus the current DVR service fee of $9.95 per Month.

and yes both prices will be going up by end of the year. I would guess after X-mas / Jab 2007 area.

have heard $12.95 for I-GUIDE (Basic DVR service Tier)
and $17.95 for TiVo (Advanced DVR service Tier)

as always STB rental cost not included. Most are now covered in the cost of the Digital Packages.

Is that set in stone from what you've seen?

Granted, an HD TiVo doesn't exist (except on DirecTV), but TiVo's lowest monthly plan is $16.95 on the new Series 2 box (the dual tuner, 80-hour box) and that's after paying them $30 for the box, which means the $16.95 is hhelping to subsidize the box's purchase price, not the TiVo service. The lowest price per month comes by pre-paying for three years' service in advance (at $469) and that comes in at $13.03/month. So, assuming that it costs TiVo $13.03 every month to supply you with a new S2 and service for three years, that would mean they're breaking even and have no profit at all.

Therefore, I have to assume TiVo makes at least a $1.00 profit off of their subscribers each month and that they're putting a price of $99 on the new S2 boxes (which is just a guess) and comes out to $2.75 a month. So let's assume that the service's cost is actually $9.25/month to TiVo per box (which is being very generous, I think, because that's assuming it costs TiVo the same amount for all the TiVo boxes in a single household on a single account).

So, $9.25 that TiVo passes onto Comcast. Comcast will want some profit, too, so they tack on a "rental" fee for the Moto box ($4.99 and change), bringing us to $14.24. That's awfully close to the rumored $14.95/month, and it give Comcast and TiVo another $0.355 in profit per customer each.

So I can see the argument for a $14.95 price point. But, $17.95 for just the TiVo service, even on an HD Moto box with no S3 boxes to be found, is going to be a hard pill to swallow (even for TiVo lovers) unless Comcast is going to restructure their price points all around (or the S3 boxes are amazingly expensive in comparison). I just can't see the justification for $17.95/month.

Having been a used-and-abused Comcast subscriber in the past, I'm still amazed I was willing to go back to them now. But the price was right (for now, at least) and I'm willing to be proven wrong. Thus far, I've been amazed with the increased customer service reliability, which is helping to prove me wrong. The current DVR interface is not helping to prove me wrong, by the way (the TiVo install cannot get here soon enough).

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I hesitate to see how Comcast thinks that would be a smart business move. If they do end up pulling that sort of thing, then I will be looking for another provider after 16 months are up.

Maybe I shouldn't take the DirecTV dish off the roof, yet. ;)

Is that set in stone from what you've seen?

Granted, an HD TiVo doesn't exist (except on DirecTV), but TiVo's lowest monthly plan is $16.95 on the new Series 2 box (the dual tuner, 80-hour box) and that's after paying them $30 for the box, which means the $16.95 is hhelping to subsidize the box's purchase price, not the TiVo service. The lowest price per month comes by pre-paying for three years' service in advance (at $469) and that comes in at $13.03/month. So, assuming that it costs TiVo $13.03 every month to supply you with a new S2 and service for three years, that would mean they're breaking even and have no profit at all.

Therefore, I have to assume TiVo makes at least a $1.00 profit off of their subscribers each month and that they're putting a price of $99 on the new S2 boxes (which is just a guess) and comes out to $2.75 a month. So let's assume that the service's cost is actually $9.25/month to TiVo per box (which is being very generous, I think, because that's assuming it costs TiVo the same amount for all the TiVo boxes in a single household on a single account).

So, $9.25 that TiVo passes onto Comcast. Comcast will want some profit, too, so they tack on a "rental" fee for the Moto box ($4.99 and change), bringing us to $14.24. That's awfully close to the rumored $14.95/month, and it give Comcast and TiVo another $0.355 in profit per customer each.

So I can see the argument for a $14.95 price point. But, $17.95 for just the TiVo service, even on an HD Moto box with no S3 boxes to be found, is going to be a hard pill to swallow (even for TiVo lovers) unless Comcast is going to restructure their price points all around (or the S3 boxes are amazingly expensive in comparison). I just can't see the justification for $17.95/month.

Having been a used-and-abused Comcast subscriber in the past, I'm still amazed I was willing to go back to them now. But the price was right (for now, at least) and I'm willing to be proven wrong. Thus far, I've been amazed with the increased customer service reliability, which is helping to prove me wrong. The current DVR interface is not helping to prove me wrong, by the way (the TiVo install cannot get here soon enough).

I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I hesitate to see how Comcast thinks that would be a smart business move. If they do end up pulling that sort of thing, then I will be looking for another provider after 16 months are up.

Maybe I shouldn't take the DirecTV dish off the roof, yet. ;)

I am not sure that some of you understand. I keep seeing people compare Comcast DVR to TiVo Service.

This is not TiVo Service, this does not have anything to do with the new TiVo DVR S3 due out soon.

What comcast asked TiVo to do, is help code some DVR software for the Moto DCT 34xx & 64xx series STB. Thats it. Your 14.95 per month goes fully to Comcast. There is no service with, provided by or through TiVo..... All they did was help code some software for a DVR IPG program..... It's just another IPG like the Guideworks I-Guide, Pioneer Passport, Microsoft Foundation, and whatever other IPG in use by MSO's.....

But it will have a better design then I-Guide.......

Sounds lamer than expected if it will be relying on the substandard listings information that Comcast is currently providing. I was really hoping it might be using some alternate source of listings info.

Sounds lamer than expected if it will be relying on the substandard listings information that Comcast is currently providing. I was really hoping it might be using some alternate source of listings info.

I do not think it is TV Guide. The info provider might be the same one used by TiVo..... But it will be provided just like the TV Guide info, via Cable Data, not by Phone line like the TiVo Service.

We should know more about it within the next 4 weeks.

Sounds lamer than expected if it will be relying on the substandard listings information that Comcast is currently providing. I was really hoping it might be using some alternate source of listings info.
The DirecTV HD TiVo's listings are not provided by TiVo either, they are provided by DirecTV via a third party company. Here with Adelphia in SoCal, i believe our listings are provided by Zap2It.

What comcast asked TiVo to do, is help code some DVR software for the Moto DCT 34xx & 64xx series STB. Thats it. Your 14.95 per month goes fully to Comcast. There is no service with, provided by or through TiVo..... All they did was help code some software for a DVR IPG program..... It's just another IPG like the Guideworks I-Guide, Pioneer Passport, Microsoft Foundation, and whatever other IPG in use by MSO's.....

I know this isn't tied to the S3. They are, however, related in that they are both TiVo vaporware at this point. ;)

However, I disagree that this is solely TiVo-coded software for the Comcast boxes and nothing more. When you read the Comcast press release from last year, the two companies stated: "This long-term, non-exclusive partnership will provide millions of Comcast customers with the opportunity to choose the TiVo service, including TiVo's award-winning user interface and features like Season Pass(TM) and WishList(TM), as an additional option. In addition, the service will showcase TiVo's home networking, multimedia, and broadband capabilities." (the emphasis is mine). The full press release can be googled with the title "Comcast and TiVo Announce Strategic Partnership" from March 15, 2005 (the forum software won't allow me to make any links until I've posted at least five times... sorry!).

That reads to me like we are going to see HMO and/or MRV (and TTG maybe?) on the TiVo-enabled boxes. I realize that it may not mean that in the end, but it definitely sounds like that's the aim.

TiVo is getting something out of this - it's not a one-time thing. Even if TiVo isn't delivering the channel guide (which I bet they are), they are getting something monetarily out of this on a per-customer, per-month basis, as Mike Ramsey (the former TiVo CEO) states in the press release: "Broad deployment to millions of Comcast homes nationwide will enhance TiVo's recurring revenues" (again, the emphasis is mine). So the money isn't going soley to Comcast - TiVo is going to get something out of it somewhere and their support will be involved somewhere.

The press release makes it sound like we will, essentially, be signing up for TiVo's service without buying their boxes and paying them via Comcast (just as those of us who were on DirecTV did). It's just a question of whether we will be presented with a crippled TiVo service like we saw at DirecTV or if it will be closer to that of the standalone boxes.

I, for one, am hoping for complete TiVo service that will interact with the SA boxes and the computers running TiVo Desktop on the same network.

Yes, the upgraded DVR service Tier w/ TiVo will be $14.95 per Month versus the current DVR service fee of $9.95 per Month.

and yes both prices will be going up by end of the year. I would guess after X-mas / Jab 2007 area.

have heard $12.95 for I-GUIDE (Basic DVR service Tier)
and $17.95 for TiVo (Advanced DVR service Tier)
Actually, if you read my post carefully, I heard from one source that IGuide would decrease in price, but I said I highly doubted it, that it would probably stay the same. So, it is news to me that it will be increasing in Jan. (or March in our area). That is quite an increase. :mad: Thanks for keeping us informed. :)

Yes, the 64xxp3 & 34xxP1 & p2 Have the upgraded CPU, plus a new instruction set will be used and installed via the new Firmware series 14.xx this also will install the OCAP drivers......
I have a DCT-6412/2005, it was before P3, I think it is a P2 (or P1?); are you sure it can't run Tivo?

Just like scanpa said, the Comcast Tivo service is just software on top of the current generation Motorola hardware, regardless of what features are enabled. It is also clear that the support for the service will be provisioned through Comcast (where they provide the guide data, not Tivo, just like the DirecTV arrangement) and Tivo will only get a license fee per box per month. Comcast will have final say in what features are included in the service (just like DirecTV does for their service). The press releases do sound promising though regarding feature set.

The thing that people haven't said when comparing S3 Tivo to Comcast Tivo is that you will have to add your CableCard rental (additional digital outlet charge) fees to the Tivo service fees. As has been discussed before, this digital outlet fee is generally covered in the digital packages for a single STB or CableCard, but if you already have your standard digital STB from Comcast, you will have to pay for the additional cable card(s) required to record premium content from the cable on the S3 Tivo. I don't know what the fee is in my area since I don't currently have Comcast.

- Mike

Depending on the cost of the S3, it will be nice not to have to purchase as expensive a programming package from Comcast as you do when you use their STB. I basically use Comcast for my HD local channels, which I could get away with only paying about $15-20 a month, but because I want the DVR my bill ends up being about $70-75 a month because of the programming package requirements.

I doubt the TiVo unit will be inexpensive enough to consider that option initially, but long term, it's a possibility. I figure I'm spending about $600 a year now just for the privilege of using Comcast's DVR so with a Basic sub and even a couple of CCs I should be able to save money by the second year given a $1000(a guess) cost for the TiVo.

I know of people who have the Comcast DVR without the programming packages that most CSRs push on you. If I were you, I would try very hard to drop the unwanted programming package and keep the DVR. You should easily be able to get it under $50/mo. I have heard of <$30/mo.

Good Luck,

- Mike

Tivo will only get a license fee per box per month. Comcast will have final say in what features are included in the service (just like DirecTV does for their service). The press releases do sound promising though regarding feature set.

I have to admit, I am hoping Comcast is not making the decision alone. Or, if it is, I hope TiVo ends up having some strong input before Comcast makes the decision.

Since the files and the apps exist in the DirecTiVos (if you hack it, you will find it), I have to imagine that TiVo itself wants a solution that extends all of their service to all of their users. There were rumors that TiVo was willing to support DirecTV customers with HMO on their systems, but that DirecTV turned them down. I was, and still am, hoping that Comcast and TiVo reached an agreement for TiVo to take some sort of active role in user feedback and support.

So, yes, I do get concerned when I hear that the Comcast TiVo will basically just be slapped-on to replace I-Guide because I think that will do TiVo, Comcast, and their customers more harm than good. On the other hand, if Comcast and TiVo are actually working hand-in-hand to create a comprehensive TiVo service, then it's going to be a worthwhile venture for all of us.

:confused:

I guess only time will tell, huh?

I know of people who have the Comcast DVR without the programming packages that most CSRs push on you. If I were you, I would try very hard to drop the unwanted programming package and keep the DVR. You should easily be able to get it under $50/mo. I have heard of <$30/mo.

Good Luck,

- Mike
In the SF bay area? I've tried, twice, and been told no dice, I have to have a minimum of Digital Classic with Standard to get the DVR.

This device will be the first and only TiVo with Firewire.
And it will be required to work for recording.

I wonder if it will be smart enough to:

1. Playback encrypted or non-encrypted DVHS tapes.

2. Allow import of programs from DVHS tape.

3. Manage the export from disk to tape.


ST

I wouldn't expect the firewire to work as an input because the 6412 doesn't do that currently. However, I have successfully captured programs from the firewire port (to my Mac laptop) because the firewire does work as an output for whatever program is currently playing.

I wouldn't expect more than this myself. The 6412 w/TiVo will probably still use the firewire port as an output of the currently playing program only.

I would bet the S3 will have the same monthly price as the other TiVo's, as the monthly price is applicable to the TiVo SERVICE, not leasing the box, although with TiVo's new pricing structure who knows.

If one has Cable, there isn't much need for OTA unless it is a VERY OLD cable system and they aren't even running networks in HD.

Isn't OTA superior because cable companies recompress the HD stream when they send it down their pipes? I'm pretty sure I can see a big image quality difference of OTA vs HD Cable.

Isn't OTA superior because cable companies recompress the HD stream when they send it down their pipes? I'm pretty sure I can see a big image quality difference of OTA vs HD Cable.
Depends on the cable company. Comcast, in most all areas does not alter the quality of the signal they receive from the broadcaster. It is converted to QAM but theoretically that does not alter the quality. Some cable companies do compress and down-rez the signal, I think Charter is known for doing it.

Isn't OTA superior because cable companies recompress the HD stream when they send it down their pipes? I'm pretty sure I can see a big image quality difference of OTA vs HD Cable.
It's going to depend on your cable company. I'm pretty sure that here in Denver, we ge the full bit-rate stream - same as OTA.

Of course, some of our locals are playing around with lame SD sub-channels that steal bits from the HD picture anyways, but that's another problem entirely.

I wouldn't expect the firewire to work as an input because the 6412 doesn't do that currently. However, I have successfully captured programs from the firewire port (to my Mac laptop) because the firewire does work as an output for whatever program is currently playing.

I wouldn't expect more than this myself. The 6412 w/TiVo will probably still use the firewire port as an output of the currently playing program only.

I agree with Weldon, but will go even further and say I don't expect the shows to even broadcast correctly over FW once the TiVo upgrade comes along because TiVo files are encrypted (I'm not sure if broadcast TV shows are encrypted, though... I watch very little on broadcast channels), which means that the Moto TiVo will probably encrypt them, too. Even if you hack a regular TiVo box to reach the files, you still have to turn the encryption off (prior to the show being recorded) to actually make them usable elsewhere.

I'm not sure how "hackable" the 34xx/64xx might be. I have a suspicion that hacking one of those boxes might not be as easy(!) as hacking one of the regular TiVo boxes is.

Does anyone know how you get onto this Beta? Are there any sign-up forms etc.

Does anyone know how you get onto this Beta? Are there any sign-up forms etc.

I suspect, if it is to be a public beta, that http://labs.comcast.net/ would be the place they would put it. I don't think I've ever seen a call for beta testers elsewhere on their sites.

There was a thread on TiVoCommunity last October (http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3353246), but there is very little information there...

TiVo has a beta tester volunteer site (https://betaapp.tivo.com/tivo-beta/register/index.do), but I really doubt that's going to feed into any Comcast test (though I did sign up... you never know).

My guess is: There will not be a "public" beta. It'll go to Comcast employees and then be rolled out the the regular customer base.

I suspect, if it is to be a public beta, that http://labs.comcast.net/ would be the place they would put it. I don't think I've ever seen a call for beta testers elsewhere on their sites.

There was a thread on TiVoCommunity last October (http://archive2.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=3353246), but there is very little information there...

TiVo has a beta tester volunteer site (https://betaapp.tivo.com/tivo-beta/register/index.do), but I really doubt that's going to feed into any Comcast test (though I did sign up... you never know).

My guess is: There will not be a "public" beta. It'll go to Comcast employees and then be rolled out the the regular customer base.

I sent comcast an e-mail - let's see if they respond

Why did I even bother!!!!!!!

Here was my question:
I understand you will be rolling out a Beta of the Tivo Software on the Motorola PVR boxes. How can I get onto that Beta (I have one of your PVR boxes)

Here is the reply

Thank you for contacting us regarding your Comcast cable service.

I understand you have some questions regarding the agreement between Comcast and TiVo.

Comcast and TiVo have agreed to develop a version of TiVo service to offer to Comcast customers in addition to Comcast's current DVR service. The new TiVo service from Comcast will offer customers premium services unique to TiVo, such as TiVo program suggestions and remote DVR scheduling. The TiVo service will be available as an add-on to Comcast's DVR service, and a TiVo box will not be required. Customers will have more DVR options and can select the service that best meets their needs. We anticipate that this service will be available in late 2006, and pricing has not yet been determined.

As always, thank you for your interest in our services. We appreciate your business!

Thank you for choosing Comcast as your Cable TV provider.

Sincerely,

Shanna
Comcast Customer Support

:o

I know of people who have the Comcast DVR without the programming packages that most CSRs push on you. If I were you, I would try very hard to drop the unwanted programming package and keep the DVR. You should easily be able to get it under $50/mo. I have heard of <$30/mo.
In the SF bay area? I've tried, twice, and been told no dice, I have to have a minimum of Digital Classic with Standard to get the DVR.The reports I heard were old messages on the HDTV-in-SFbay Yahoo group shortly after the DVR became available. People were able to get the DVR with Broadcast Basic service, box rental, DVR fee, and taxes & fees only. No "Expanded Basic", no Digital Silver. That's how you get close to $30. I'm not saying it's still possible, but people have done it. People also used to get 6200's (no DVR, but HDTV locals) with that type of service too. Although these days, any HDTV with QAM can do the same. I would think they would be more willing to do this as they implement ADS with encryption. That way they don't have to come and put a filter on your house to keep you from getting the analog channels like MTV and ESPN that are in the "Expanded Basic" service.

If you're unable to get the DVR without Digital Silver, I would go ahead and get it on a promotion and then cancel the Digital Silver after the promotion runs out and see if they try to take away the DVR. I would guess that they won't.

- Mike

Why did I even bother!!!!!!!

Well, even with the stock response, it at least was a friendly stock response. ;)

Maybe I'll try, too (after I get an On Demand issue worked out), and see if I get the same response.

The reports I heard were old messages on the HDTV-in-SFbay Yahoo group shortly after the DVR became available. People were able to get the DVR with Broadcast Basic service, box rental, DVR fee, and taxes & fees only. No "Expanded Basic", no Digital Silver. That's how you get close to $30. I'm not saying it's still possible, but people have done it. People also used to get 6200's (no DVR, but HDTV locals) with that type of service too. Although these days, any HDTV with QAM can do the same. I would think they would be more willing to do this as they implement ADS with encryption. That way they don't have to come and put a filter on your house to keep you from getting the analog channels like MTV and ESPN that are in the "Expanded Basic" service.

If you're unable to get the DVR without Digital Silver, I would go ahead and get it on a promotion and then cancel the Digital Silver after the promotion runs out and see if they try to take away the DVR. I would guess that they won't.

- Mike
I don't want to take the thread too far of track, but it was months ago when I tried. I'm going to try again here in about a week and see what happens.

I have to admit, I am hoping Comcast is not making the decision alone. Or, if it is, I hope TiVo ends up having some strong input before Comcast makes the decision.

From the 11-05 TiVo conference call:

"Q - Tony Wibel
I have a couple of questions. One you indicated I guess there s not a new hardware platform fort the Comcast box. So how will that box be supporting mobility?
A - Tom Rogers
Well, we haven t talked specifically about features in the Comcast offering. And at this point I don t have any particular comment on that other than to say that it s possible to support mobility because with TiVo connecting through the PC to accomplish TiVoToGo, to the extent Comcast elects features like that, we ll be in a position to support them through our software."

From the 5-06 TiVo conference call:

"Tom Rogers
Ill take the second question and hand the first one on financing back over to Stuart. We are making available in our feature set, if MSOs should want it, features that will allow for a DVR to accept and display broadband delivered programming.
For the time being, I think it would be unlikely that MSOs will want to see their DVRs serve that kind of function, although that may change over time. There are other elements of the standalone TiVo that provide a richer feature set, with broadband connectivity that dont have to do with the display of broadband video, that we think, very much, will be a part of the MSO TiVo offering.\0"

From the 11-05 TiVo conference call: "...to the extent Comcast elects features like that, we ll be in a position to support them through our software."

Arrrrgggghh.

Well, I guess the software will be there, it just may be inactive if Comcast chooses (like the DirecTiVos are). Hopefully between Moto, Comcast, and TiVo, it won't be too difficult to make modifications if we don't get everything.

I do like the fact that he is referring to multiple providers, not just Comcast. :)

I don't like the fact that Comcast is the only game in town for me (other than satellite). :(

Time will tell...

I'm looking forward to this development. I'm moving from one apartment to another and leaving DirecTV behind in the process. Comcast is also the only game in town at the moment, IMHO the current Comcast DVR doesn't hold a candle to the TiVo, in any sort of full or watered-down format (my girlfriend, a current Comcast customer, will attest to that). I'd gladly pay extra for even the Comcast equivalent of the DirecTV TiVo (but will gladly take the additonal features).

It's a tough call: Pay a little more for the Comcast version, which will run on the moto HW (do we get a new remote, at least?), that *might* be stripped down, or potentially pay a lot more per month for an actual Series3, 1-2 cablecards, and the TiVo fee (which might be as much as the Comcast version *not* counting cablecard fees if you can't get a multistream), to get MRV, online scheduling, storage expansion options). No On-Demand for the Series3 either.

I think it'll all boil down to the Initial Price/ monthly fees once the Series 3 and the Comcast versions are released.

Comcast: Monthly DVR fee + Comcast monthly Tivo Premium Fee = ~$18/ mo?

Tivo: Comcast Cablecard fee(s) (if applicable - first might be free, second most likely isn't - additional outlet fee there) + Tivo service monthly fee + Tivo HW fee if taking an extended agreement plan. = Seems like the potential for at least $18/ mo if not more, not to mention any up front payments for the HW in the first place.

In the SF bay area? I've tried, twice, and been told no dice, I have to have a minimum of Digital Classic with Standard to get the DVR.
Didn't you post your local pamphlet a while ago?
IIRC, it showed Digital Classic itemized with no pre-requisite, therefore it is available a la carte (in addtion to Basic). IIRC, it also showed it in package, but that is just an option. Don't go by the website, it only shows tiered services here, like it does here.

If I am correct, then Digital Classic and Basic should be enough to get a DVR. This is listed on my pamphlet, and this requirement, whatever it is, should be on yours. You may get an ignorant CSR, but if a supervisor still rules it out, take the pamphlet to the office, but I doubt it would be necessary.

Some areas do indeed print that Digital Clasic can only be obtained with Standard, and therefore the DVR, by extension, requires both.

Other areas require just Standard, but then you don't get all of the 'cable network' HD, so it is no better than the scenario above.

I wouldn't bother trying to get cancel down to Basic with a DVR, not only is against there requirements, but I heard of someone who had to return the DVR.

Check your local pamphlet, I bet you will be happy with the req. for DVR and in turn, Digital Classic. Let us know. :)

Yes, I'm going to try again. Notice at the bottom of the list the double asterisk which indicates Limited Basic is required for Digital Classic. I'm going to take the list with me when I go. If I can get the DVR with Limited Basic and just Digital Classic I'll be happy. I would prefer not to even have Digital Classic but I doubt that's going to happen.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/Prices.jpg

Yes, I'm going to try again. Notice at the bottom of the list the double asterisk which indicates Limited Basic is required for Digital Classic. I'm going to take the list with me when I go. If I can get the DVR with Limited Basic and just Digital Classic I'll be happy. I would prefer not to even have Digital Classic but I doubt that's going to happen.

Yes, as I mentioned, (Ltd.) Basic is required, this is always the case. Of course, you want HD Locals anyway. And no area, AFAIK, has a policy of allowing DVR with Ltd. Basic, only through error is this allowed, sometimes they even correct the error.

I looked up your city, and entered the first zip code I could find, and it takes me to Comcast of North Bay. Now, if you click on Products, Digital Cable, DVR, and scroll to the bottom, the first sentence says:
'DVR requires subscription to Comcast Digital Cable.'
You should print out this page. So, Digital Classic qualifies, and since that in turn only requires Ltd. Basic, those are all you need for a DVR.

If the Phone or Chat reps. don't relent, go to the office, and show the 'DVR' page (noting your city on the top), and point out that for a DVR, Digital Classic is sufficient. Then show your city's 'Prices/Services' pamphlet, and point out that Digital Classic's only req. is Ltd. Basic. Simple enough to understand...even for them. :D

Even if it takes a supervisor, you should be able to drop Expd. The FCC mandates these reqs. to be in writing, so they can't play games, yet, they still try. ;) Next recourse would be to complain to the LFA, but I doubt you would need to do so.

As an aside, I live in PA., and our DVR page is exactly the same as your CA DVR page, so they might have standardized the DVR service req. The only thing is, last I heard, some areas only allow Digital Classic with Basic and Expd. (Standard), thus making those areas different. Of course, areas that require just Std. might still exist.

As an aside, I live in PA., and our DVR page is exactly the same as your CA DVR page, so they might have standardized the DVR service req. The only thing is, last I heard, some areas only allow Digital Classic with Basic and Expd. (Standard), thus making those areas different. Of course, areas that require just Std. might still exist.
That is the story I got the first couple of times I tried(truth be told, I didn't press the issue that hard at the time), that both Basic and Expanded(STD) was required to get Classic. But that price list seems to say otherwise, so off to the cable office I go... :p

That is the story I got the first couple of times I tried(truth be told, I didn't press the issue that hard at the time), that both Basic and Expanded(STD) was required to get Classic. But that price list seems to say otherwise, so off to the cable office I go... :p
They can say all they want, what is in writing is all the counts, and it is clear to me. :)

I cancelled Expd. a while ago, but added something else, probably making it easier; so I have more cable services than you would have, but it isn't necessary, of course.

I was told the same thing about the policy by the phone CSR, but he talked to the supervisor, and they allowed it to 'keep the customer happy'. Nice of them to follow their own requirements to make me happy, isn't it? :rolleyes: :D

They obviously checked the written reqs., and saw they were mistaken, but wouldn't say so. Trust me, they aren't going to make any exceptions. :p

Their strategy seems to be to really push the 'tiered' approach to services, and this exemplified by their online product ordering page, and the CSRs are apparently trained to push services this way, as well.

On a related note, while some areas can and do require Std. for Digital, all of them are must offer Basic and Premiums a la carte.

Let us know how it turns out.

This device will be the first and only TiVo with Firewire.
And it will be required to work for recording.

I wonder if it will be smart enough to:

1. Playback encrypted or non-encrypted DVHS tapes.

2. Allow import of programs from DVHS tape.

3. Manage the export from disk to tape.


STI seriously doubt the box will have Firewire input of any kind.

What would be nice is if they had wider formatted guides for HD displays.

Adding to the mix is that Comcast also is promising a Panasonic cable box as an alternative to the Motorola box: Panasonic & Comcast agreement (http://www.cmcsk.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=147565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=800562&highlight=panasonic)

I wonder if the TIVO option will be packaged with this seemingly more-capable box.

My guess is: There will not be a "public" beta. It'll go to Comcast employees........and a few select others.

If you're unable to get the DVR without Digital Silver, I would go ahead and get it on a promotion and then cancel the Digital Silver after the promotion runs out and see if they try to take away the DVR. I would guess that they won't.

- MikeThis approach has worked for others.

Arrrrgggghh.

Well, I guess the software will be there, it just may be inactive if Comcast chooses (like the DirecTiVos are). Hopefully between Moto, Comcast, and TiVo, it won't be too difficult to make modifications if we don't get everything.Don't bet on it.

They can say all they want, what is in writing is all the counts, and it is clear to me. :)

I cancelled Expd. a while ago, but added something else, probably making it easier; so I have more cable services than you would have, but it isn't necessary, of course.

I was told the same thing about the policy by the phone CSR, but he talked to the supervisor, and they allowed it to 'keep the customer happy'. Nice of them to follow their own requirements to make me happy, isn't it? :rolleyes: :D

They obviously checked the written reqs., and saw they were mistaken, but wouldn't say so. Trust me, they aren't going to make any exceptions. :p

Their strategy seems to be to really push the 'tiered' approach to services, and this exemplified by their online product ordering page, and the CSRs are apparently trained to push services this way, as well.

On a related note, while some areas can and do require Std. for Digital, all of them are must offer Basic and Premiums a la carte.

Let us know how it turns out.

No go, went today and was told I have to have Standard to get the DVR although she could show me no documentation to that effect, supervisor is supposed to call me Monday.

Don't bet on it.

Of course not... that's why I wrote "Hopefully." ;)

I'm kind of hoping that the software entails some sort of install over FTP (as Linux will do), and that the initial stub installer has to erase the hard drive first and then download the OS from a main server as it is being installed.

If that's the case, then it should just be a matter of doing what has been done before.

If not... then it could take some time.

Of course, if Comcast electes to bring all of the regular features to their TiVo software, people won't want to modify it. That is assuming Comcast is listening to its customers, and that its customers are making their thoughts known.

Adding to the mix is that Comcast also is promising a Panasonic cable box as an alternative to the Motorola box: Panasonic & Comcast agreement (http://www.cmcsk.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=147565&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=800562&highlight=panasonic)

I wonder if the TIVO option will be packaged with this seemingly more-capable box.

That's an interesting press release. The Panasonic box is definitely better, hardware-wise, than the Moto boxes. I also find the H.264 capabilities on the Panasonic box to be telling. That sounds like IPTV delivery to me.

Now, of course, it depends on if TiVo is creating software to take advantage of a lot of the new festures in the Panasonic box. Some of that can be addressed via software, which would mean TiVo could bring those to the Moto boxes, too. If someone would just enable the SATA connection on the back of the 34xx/64xx, then the space issue would be resolved.

But the Panasonic boxes sound slick - at least on paper.

Based on the issues that we've seen with H.264 encoded HD playback on PC's, I think it's a safe bet that any STB would need a hardware decoder to keep up. TiVo won't be able to write a software decoder that would be able to work fast enough on the Motorola hardware.

There's not much else in the press release that seems innovative. I only noticed the active USB 2.0 ports to allow digital cameras to be hooked up to the television and the HDAVI control protocol.

I'm not sure how "hackable" the 34xx/64xx might be. I have a suspicion that hacking one of those boxes might not be as easy(!) as hacking one of the regular TiVo boxes is.

Not to mention that you would be hacking a box that you don't own!

If you're unable to get the DVR without Digital Silver, I would go ahead and get it on a promotion and then cancel the Digital Silver after the promotion runs out and see if they try to take away the DVR. I would guess that they won't.
Yes, that could work, but I would say, one would need to keep at least Standard service; as they have asked for the DVR back from a few Basic subs, I recall.

Here, it actually is just Digital Classic. Here, Digital Silver is a package deal.

When DVRs were new here, when I ordered, they were ready to give me a DVR with just Standard, but I wanted a Digital service, anyway. Then when I wanted to cancel Expd. they gave me a hard time, eventhough it was allowed per their pamphlet, but they did eventually relent. The point is, they don't know even know all of their own policies.

No go, went today and was told I have to have Standard to get the DVR although she could show me no documentation to that effect, supervisor is supposed to call me Monday.
This is typical, you show them something in writing from their own company and they flatly refuse it, ridiculous. I mean, in some areas they only allow Digital with Standard, and therefore, both are needed for the DVR. (I have seen a pamphlet from one such area.) They chose to make Digital a la carte, and Digital gets a DVR, then not honor it. :mad:

If the supervisor doesn't allow it over the phone, you should make an appt. to show the prices/services pamphlet and their DVR page to him. If that still doesn't work, you could try Comcast Corporate, (although I don't know who you should call), and then there is the LFA to complain. It is a substantial savings each month, I think you should pursue it.

This is typical, you show them something in writing from their own company and they flatly refuse it, ridiculous. I mean, in some areas they only allow Digital with Standard, and therefore, both are needed for the DVR. (I have seen a pamphlet from one such area.) They chose to make Digital a la carte, and Digital gets a DVR, then not honor it. :mad:

If the supervisor doesn't allow it over the phone, you should make an appt. to show the prices/services pamphlet and their DVR page to him. If that still doesn't work, you could try Comcast Corporate, (although I don't know who you should call), and then there is the LFA to complain. It is a substantial savings each month, I think you should pursue it.
Yes it is quite a bit, I figure to have the DVR it's costing me over $450 a year(the Standard requirement plus the DVR/HD fee). I have the "supervisor" calling me Monday and I also have a shout out to the SF region VP of marketing as he corresponds with a few of the members in our local thread and "seems" to have a sympathetic ear ...sometimes... :p

Not to mention that you would be hacking a box that you don't own!

Easily handled:

You buy one and tell Comcast you have your own. There are sixteen 6412s and one 3412 on eBay right now.

Upside is: You own it. You can tamper with it till you're blue in the face.

Downside is: You own it. You can't call Comcast for them to swap it out with a newer model or different box at a later date.

Based on the issues that we've seen with H.264 encoded HD playback on PC's...

:)

Sorry... I haven't had any issues with playing back H.264 on my machines. On all the files I've tried, QuickTime handles it flawlessly on my Macs. ;)

Downside is: You own it. You can't call Comcast for them to swap it out with a newer model or different box at a later date.
And there's a good chance they won't even activate it for you. "Buying" a Moto 64XX for use in the US is not really a good idea, unless you're willing to accept a total loss if they don't support it.

Sorry... I haven't had any issues with playing back H.264 on my machines. On all the files I've tried, QuickTime handles it flawlessly on my Macs. ;)
You misunderstand me. Mac OS X or Windows, PPC or Intel, you need a pretty fast computer to decode HD in real-time. Most people say a G5 or better or P4 3.0GHz or better. My G4 Mac laptop can't do it and my P4 home-built PC can barely do it on a good day (2 years old). Standard Definition H.264 files are easy. High Def files in H.264 take a lot of processing power (more than MPEG-2) and I don't think the CPU in the Motorola box would be up to the task without hardware assist from a dedicated decoder chip (which the 6412 does not have for H.264).

And there's a good chance they won't even activate it for you. "Buying" a Moto 64XX for use in the US is not really a good idea, unless you're willing to accept a total loss if they don't support it.

It's more than a 'good chance'. Comcast won't activate a box in the USA that you purchase yourself. There was a recent thread about this in one of the other forums. Some poor sucker bought a 6412 off eBay, plugged it in and called Comcast to activate it. They wouldn't and couldn't!

The poor guy ended up putting it back on eBay to try to sell to someone in Canada, where they DO allow you to use a DVR that you own yourself.

Mark

The poor guy ended up putting it back on eBay to try to sell to someone in Canada, where they DO allow you to use a DVR that you own yourself.

It's actually required in Canada - the providers aren't allowed to rent the equipment to you.

I have heard of cases in the States where it has happened, and I've heard of cases where it hasn't, but I'm sure there's a secret handshake involved somewhere. And possibly the use of a Lousiville Slugger.

You misunderstand me. Mac OS X or Windows, PPC or Intel, you need a pretty fast computer to decode HD in real-time. Most people say a G5 or better or P4 3.0GHz or better. My G4 Mac laptop can't do it and my P4 home-built PC can barely do it on a good day (2 years old). Standard Definition H.264 files are easy. High Def files in H.264 take a lot of processing power (more than MPEG-2) and I don't think the CPU in the Motorola box would be up to the task without hardware assist from a dedicated decoder chip (which the 6412 does not have for H.264).

Right... I'm referring to my Intel iMac. It was just a throwaway comment, nothing more. ;)

It's more than a 'good chance'. Comcast won't activate a box in the USA that you purchase yourself. They will activate a few boxes, including the DCP501. But I doubt they'd activate a DVR.

Based on the issues that we've seen with H.264 encoded HD playback on PC's, I think it's a safe bet that any STB would need a hardware decoder to keep up.Set top boxes don't have fast enough CPUs to decode even MPEG-2. They do all decoding with dedicated hardware.

You misunderstand me. Mac OS X or Windows, PPC or Intel, you need a pretty fast computer to decode HD in real-time. Most people say a G5 or better or P4 3.0GHz or better. My G4 Mac laptop can't do it and my P4 home-built PC can barely do it on a good day (2 years old). Standard Definition H.264 files are easy. High Def files in H.264 take a lot of processing power (more than MPEG-2) and I don't think the CPU in the Motorola box would be up to the task without hardware assist from a dedicated decoder chip (which the 6412 does not have for H.264).

Not to mention you also need 1 gig or more memory to do H.264 streaming and a good duel 3g CPU.....

There's an interesting piece on Ars Technica that is focused on cable bandwidth, but has implications concerning how the current cablecard tech may not end up cutting it...

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060605-6985.html

Something to keep in mind in an S3 vs. HD Moto question.

Here's another thought: TiVo has a VOD clip service coming up next month (http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2006-06/tivocast-video-clips-on-demand-debut-next-month/) and, of course, Comcast has On Demand.

I wonder how On Demand is going to change in the TiVo software. Sure, it could still be "Channel 1," but if it was actually delivered over broadband to the Moto boxes...

I'm pretty much just talking out loud here... I'm not real familiar with how the On Demand stuff works, or how it could be made to work better in the Moto TiVos.

EDIT Correction: Originally thought this was a new forum on ComcastTiVo (not just a discussion thread on HDTV recorders forum). Based on a arstechnica blog reference, I made a quick and hasty conclusion that wasn't appropriate.

Comcast to begin testing HD TiVo service add-on
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060606-6995.html

PVR Blog's entry that lead me to think that this thread was a separate forum...
http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2006/06/comcast_to_begi.html

Shouldn't this discussion now occur over at the TiVoCommunity site? There are a ton of TiVo users there who are interested in the same thing. Plus, per TiVoPony (referenced in the thread I note below), TiVo Employees monitor that site and set of Forums...not this one. If you even want a chance for a TiVo employee to comment on the talk and speculation on this discussion, it really should occur over there.

Given the interest and widening discussion on this thread, it's probably appropriate for AVS Forums to setup a specific subforum (ComcasTiVO?) off of the TiVoCommunity.com site (it's the same AVS hosted environment, just colored and styled a little differently)

EDIT: I've posted the same question on the main TiVo Community forum too...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=302941

Given the interest and widening discussion on this thread, it's probably appropriate for AVS Forums to setup a specific subforum (ComcastTiVO?) off of the TiVoCommunity.com site (it's the same AVS hosted environment, just colored and styled a little differently)

That makes sense to me, and all of your points are right on the mark. I'm willing to follow the thread wherever its home needs to go to, but I (for one) would like to see the current three pages follow. While there is a sizable amount about HD DVRs and service plans, I think there's enough good information and conjecture in this current thread that it would be a shame to lose track of that as the interest widens.

EDIT Correction: Originally thought this was a new forum on ComcastTiVo (not just a discussion thread on HDTV recorders forum). Based on a arstechnica blog reference, I made a quick and hasty conclusion that wasn't appropriate.

Comcast to begin testing HD TiVo service add-on
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060606-6995.html

PVR Blog's entry that lead me to think that this thread was a separate forum...
http://www.pvrblog.com/pvr/2006/06/comcast_to_begi.html

Shouldn't this discussion now occur over at the TiVoCommunity site? There are a ton of TiVo users there who are interested in the same thing. Plus, per TiVoPony (referenced in the thread I note below), TiVo Employees monitor that site and set of Forums...not this one. If you even want a chance for a TiVo employee to comment on the talk and speculation on this discussion, it really should occur over there.

Given the interest and widening discussion on this thread, it's probably appropriate for AVS Forums to setup a specific subforum (ComcasTiVO?) off of the TiVoCommunity.com site (it's the same AVS hosted environment, just colored and styled a little differently)

EDIT: I've posted the same question on the main TiVo Community forum too...
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=302941


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291718&page=1

Shouldn't this discussion now occur over at the TiVoCommunity site?
While there are good arguments to consolidate discussion, there are other threads here about the 6412 with Passport and iGuide software and it makes sense to have another thread for the 6412 w/ TiVo. As time goes on, there will be lots of threads both here and a TiVoCommunity about the 6412 w/ TiVo. If we can point people to one main thread here and one main thread at TiVoCommunity, we'll be doing really well.

I think it would be wiser to let the community decide where most of the discussion will take place.

I currently have an 8300HD box from comcast. How does one go about getting a DCT - 34xx & 64xx box? Does comcast offer them everywhere? I am assuming that the Tivo software will only available for the 34xx & 64xx, correct? What are the differences?

Sorry for the newb questions.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=291718&page=1

That's funny...

You do realize that the last post in the thread points to this one, right? ;)

Now, here's a question: If the systems on avsforum and tivocommunity are essentially the same, is there a way to mirror the conversation on both sites?

That's funny...

You do realize that the last post in the thread points to this one, right? ;)

Now, here's a question: If the systems on avsforum and tivocommunity are essentially the same, is there a way to mirror the conversation on both sites?

I am aware, but like weldon said

If we can point people to one main thread here and one main thread at TiVoCommunity, we'll be doing really well.

Also, David Bott has spoken

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4102090&&#post4102090

I dunno. Would you guys be willing to pay $5 more for the Tivo software? How about $7.50? $10? Comcast is already nickel and diming us to death.

Considering I mainly watch HD locals exclusively, UHD and that's about it. I have no premiums at all. No extended Basic, nada. Would it even be worth it?

Well if the Tivo software fixes all the bugs with the 3412 I will happily pay extra for it.

Right now the 3412 is simply unusable. It's borderline criminal fraud in my opinion. It simply does not work properly without being rebooted every couple of days (at best!) It's worse than Microsoft.

I'd pay $7.50 extra a month for TiVo Software on the 3412. I disagree with the criticisms of the 3412; it's okay. It's not a TiVo, but it is still pretty good.

I dunno. Would you guys be willing to pay $5 more for the Tivo software? How about $7.50? $10? Comcast is already nickel and diming us to death.

Considering I mainly watch HD locals exclusively, UHD and that's about it. I have no premiums at all. No extended Basic, nada. Would it even be worth it?

Well, if you move to using a TiVo subscription, it'll be at least $14/month. So, even at $10 more a month, if the features are on par with TiVo's actual feature set, then it would be worth it.

Now, I will say I don't have to reboot my 3412, and I've managed to get it to handle some of the recordings as I want them to... but its definition of "First Run" is laughable. I can't believe that I-Guide is brought to us by TV Guide (not that I'm a TV Guide fan).

OK. According to Comcast Corporate, they are beginning testing in an R&D Lab in Phila. PA. They MIGHT add some beta testers in THAT city only before launch. Launch timing remains 2006 (that's the most they'd say.)

I have to reboot my 3412 almost daily to keep the DVR portion working. The rest of it works fine, but the DVR has about a 50-60% to just completely lock up and require a power-plug operation if I pause, FF or REW anything (or for any other reason, even when it's turned off).

I have the 3412, compared to Tivo, 3412's search ability is laughable. Nothing like wishlist.

I get wrong show when the guide data clearly states it's the wrong show, but the 3412 picks it up since it occupies the time slot that the show I wanted is in. Some other wrong recordings seem to be due to bad guide data, but c'mon 3412 is running iGuide from TV guide, you'd think they should have at least the guide data right. I never had any problem with Tivo's guide data in 3+ years.

The 3412's trick play is jumpy and annoying, on rewind spped 1, hitting play always takes a few seconds delay to respond, requiring having to FF again. I would happily pay $10 more for Tivo, my main complaints:

1) Weak search
2) Unreliable recording
3) Unresponsive trick play

Pretty much your bread and butter of DVR functionalities

OK. According to Comcast Corporate, they are beginning testing in an R&D Lab in Phila. PA. They MIGHT add some beta testers in THAT city only before launch. Launch timing remains 2006 (that's the most they'd say.)

Hi Rick,

In House Beta testing of TiVo Softwhere completed in may. There are currently 7 Head Ends / Cable Plants in select Comcast Markets that are completeing Hardware and System buildout so that they can begin active user Beta Testing.

Rollout of Beta Software is by end of month.

:)

I've heard that Denver isn't one of the beta testing markets. Guess I'll just have to wait until the beta test is over.

Is Detroit a beta area? :D

There are currently 7 Head Ends / Cable Plants in select Comcast Markets that are completeing Hardware and System buildout so that they can begin active user Beta Testing.Why are head end / plant changes required?

Why are head end / plant changes required?

Better/ Different guide data, perhaps?

(please Boston be a test area! ;))

Why are head end / plant changes required?


Each software type is ran and operated off of a independent server system. The TiVo software will be used along with the current or new version of the IGuide software.

Better/ Different guide data, perhaps?

(please Boston be a test area! ;))


The report I read stated 2 Large head ends and 2 medium sized Headends and 2 smaller Headends.

looks like they want to cover all of there bases for once.

scanpa,

What about the MSFT software running on 34xx/64xx here in Washington state? Will that have any impact on making TiVo software available here? I would think not, but one nevers knows for sure.

Do you have any info or thoughts on whether the MSFT software will stay or go?

Why are head end / plant changes required?
The STB has to be able to download the software from somewhere.

Not to mention that you would be hacking a box that you don't own!Some people OWN their Moto DVRs!! It depends on the market you are in.

<<snip>>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Raymo
OK. According to Comcast Corporate, they are beginning testing in an R&D Lab in Phila. PA. They MIGHT add some beta testers in THAT city only before launch. Launch timing remains 2006 (that's the most they'd say.)


Hi Rick,

In House Beta testing of TiVo Softwhere completed in may. There are currently 7 Head Ends / Cable Plants in select Comcast Markets that are completeing Hardware and System buildout so that they can begin active user Beta Testing.

Rollout of Beta Software is by end of month.
<<snip>>
Typical. I call and chase this in depth--and am given totally wrong information.
I'm glad the corporate shills I spoke to were wrong though.
Any word on which seven markets?
Thanks for the update--it is appreciated.

Some people OWN their Moto DVRs!! It depends on the market you are in.
True, but does Comcast operate in Canada? You could maybe lose an explanation point or two to calmly make the point that while the Comcast customers in this thread might not own the box, there are advantages to living up north and having a different cable provider that does allow you to own the box.

It's actually required in Canada - the providers aren't allowed to rent the equipment to you.That's nonsense.

True, but does Comcast operate in Canada?You miss my point entirely. "Comcast customers" aren't the only people who might develop "hacks" for the box.

We in Canada are developing work-arounds to use larger hard drives in the Moto boxes and we can "play" to our heart's content; but even you Comcast users might benefit from our "hacking"!

I thought this thread was about TiVo software on these boxes. (confused)

That's nonsense.

Maybe so... but bicker1 is right - this thread is about the software, not the box itself or what Canadian regs may or may not exist. So let's just drop it, smile sweetly at each other, and talk about some software, okay? :D

Well, while dealing with an On Demand issue on my Moto box (a 3412, swapped by a tech with a 6408(!), then swapped again today by me with a phase III 6412... none of them acccess OD), I can tell you that the office staff at my local Comcast office looked at me completely blankly when I asked about the TiVo software.

Now, not that I expect a service clerk behind a counter to tell me the wheres and whatfors of the TiVo service... but i would think that Comcast would have a flyer or something for their staff so they could at least answer consistently...

I will say one thing, though: After dealing with the swapping of the DVRs and the constant On Demand problem, I'm going to try and guilt them into putting me on a metro Detroit beta (if the beta goes outside of Philly) when our system is ready. ;)

And, no, I don't seriously think that will work. But it's worth a shot...

Boston area gets alot of these things first so I wouldn't be surprised if we're part of the testing...

Now, not that I expect a service clerk behind a counter to tell me the wheres and whatfors of the TiVo service... but i would think that Comcast would have a flyer or something for their staff so they could at least answer consistently...I wouldn't expect something like that. The last thing a company wants to do is put a greater burden on their front-line staff than they already are forced to, in order to keep costs low. They need their front-line staff to be focused on supporting the services they offer, not diverting their focus on to services that they may someday offer.

I wouldn't expect something like that. The last thing a company wants to do is put a greater burden on their front-line staff than they already are forced to, in order to keep costs low. They need their front-line staff to be focused on supporting the services they offer, not diverting their focus on to services that they may someday offer.
Agreed -- especially as dates and details can slip or change. Most companies keep mum internally until ready for product launch.

I just made the switch to Comcast's hd dvr, but I did so kicking and screaming because I love my Tivo. I called Tivo to cancel my account today with the full intention of returning when their Series 3 comes out. While I was talking the the CSR he asked if I was a Comcast subscriber and then told me that he has been seeing special accounts pop up recently that they are supposed to watch because these are the Comcast subscribers currently beta testing the new Tivo service.

Unless the guy was lying to me, and I don't know why he would, this would seem to confirm that beta testing is already underway.

he has been seeing special accounts pop up recently that they are supposed to watch becauseCould you please clarify this? Is there some way we can get ourselves put in as beta testers, by unsubscribing from TiVo Service? or by staying as a TiVo subscriber?

I wouldn't expect something like that. The last thing a company wants to do is put a greater burden on their front-line staff than they already are forced to, in order to keep costs low. They need their front-line staff to be focused on supporting the services they offer, not diverting their focus on to services that they may someday offer.

Therefore, Comcast should be giving them a script of some sort... something that has them actually sound like they're better informed than someone who does not work for the company. Even if it is a simple "We can't comment on that right now. Wait for an announcement," at least I would know they're somewhat informed.

(I should note that I'm in a special circumstance: I manage a call center that supports 45,000 people and I expect my staff to be informed as to what is going on and to be able to handle rumor control in addition to the troubleshooting they have to do. And, yes, I know that's rare in customer service... but it works well for my users.)

To call back to jocoze:

I just made the switch to Comcast's hd dvr, but I did so kicking and screaming because I love my Tivo. I called Tivo to cancel my account today with the full intention of returning when their Series 3 comes out. While I was talking the the CSR he asked if I was a Comcast subscriber and then told me that he has been seeing special accounts pop up recently that they are supposed to watch because these are the Comcast subscribers currently beta testing the new Tivo service.

Unless the guy was lying to me, and I don't know why he would, this would seem to confirm that beta testing is already underway.

See, I find that very interesting. It had been generally thought, after scanpa knocked down my idea that the customers would be both Comcast & TiVo customers (not just Comcast customers), that it would just be a TiVo service offered by Comcast.

If TiVo is actually maintaining some sort of accounts for the beta testers, then there may be more than meets the eye here. That would mean that TiVo has some sort of need to have those subscribers on their system - either for guide data or HMO/MRV options, or something. Perhaps the remote scheduling that the regular TiVos can do through Yahoo? That would be nice... (which reminds me: does anyone know if Comcast Labs' beta of http://tvplanner.net has anything to do with the TiVo rollout?)

Am I getting my hopes up? No, I'm not. Would I be happy to see this as more of a TiVo-Comcast partnership than TiVo-DirecTV was, one that diddn't treat the TV provider's users as second-class citizens? Oh, hell yes. ;)

I guess we just wait. At this point I'm just happy to be rid of the god-awful 6408 I had in the house for four days.

Could you please clarify this? Is there some way we can get ourselves put in as beta testers, by unsubscribing from TiVo Service? or by staying as a TiVo subscriber?


The CSR wasn't offering to put me on the beta test. I would think that would be Comcast's decision. He was just making small talk because I mentioned to him that I was switching to the Comcast DVR but I would return as a Tivo customer as soon as the Series 3 came out. He then asked if I had heard that Tivo was going to be working with Comcast. I said yes and he said that he had started to see accounts for the beta test and that they(the CSRs) were supposed to keep an eye on them.

Thats all he said I didn't ask any followup questions about how to get in on the beta test. Me canceling or staying a subscriber had nothing to do with the Comcast beta test. It was just small talk.

Therefore, Comcast should be giving them a script of some sort... something that has them actually sound like they're better informed than someone who does not work for the company.It is unreasonable to expect that everyone working for a company will be as passionate about the company's products and services as rabid fans who voluntarily spend significant leisure time on an Internet bulletin board devoted to those products and services.

Even if it is a simple "We can't comment on that right now. Wait for an announcement," at least I would know they're somewhat informed.Rather, they should always say, "Sorry, I don't know about that," whenever a question is asked that they don't know the answer to. However, what many call-center workers have indicated is that many callers are actually abusive to them if they try to politely decline to answer a question, which is outside the purview of their job responsibilities. That's the crux of the problem I believe.

One nice thing about Tivo's is that you can give them different IR addresses so they can live in the same room without problems on the remote. Thats not true for the 3412's. I wonder if the Tivo software will fix that.

Also, is it clear if Comcast will be charging extra for each box with Tivo software? They don't charge by the box for premimum channels, and Directv does not charge by the box for Tivo support.

OK, my 6412 started doing something strange yesterday. My Comcast universal remote will no longer control my Sony TV power/volume. I tried to reprogram, but it wouldn't accept the Sony IR codes. However, I can now control the volume of the cable box itself, which it's never done before. Not sure if my toddler somehow unlocked the volume when she was playing with the remote or if this is the first rollout of the TIVO-enhanced software. Anybody else have this happen?

Patiently, well maybe not patiently, waiting for the latest information from Scanpa or anyone else about the public beta rollout. Will the "word" come on the TV menu message from Comcast?

ScanPA,
I know that it's a little early for this, but any idea whether we will lose the programs we've already stored if we choose to update? I'm assuming that the factory reset probably includes reformatting the hard drive, but I figured I'd ask.

ScanPA,
I know that it's a little early for this, but any idea whether we will lose the programs we've already stored if we choose to update? I'm assuming that the factory reset probably includes reformatting the hard drive, but I figured I'd ask.


Not unless you do a HD reset...

nothing will change with the hard drive inside the STB. This is only a software and firmware upgrade.

Not unless you do a HD reset...

nothing will change with the hard drive inside the STB. This is only a software and firmware upgrade.
Is this certain? Tivo, historically, has used a very specific partition layout, etc., on its DVRs (including the DirecTivos), with a proprietary filesystem to hold the actual media files.

I'm gonna side with cheer. Seems like in order for the Tivo to be able to store/index the shows, it will have to do it in the Tivo format. Maybe they will have some way of converting from the previous format, but something will have to happen if shows will be kept.

Do the current software installs even use Linux? If not, the entire hard drive will have to be reformatted. I found it doubtful that Tivo would port their complete software package to a different OS.

Well there's already a massive amount of code changes they'd have to make for the x4xx series boxes in the first place (new CPU, hardware & firmware capabilities, etc.) so it very well could be possible that the actual recording format on-disk and the disk structure may not change.

Perhaps they have a couple of partitions -- one for the program guide information and OS, and another for the recordings? They'd only have to whack the non-recordings one then??

-John

Well there's already a massive amount of code changes they'd have to make for the x4xx series boxes in the first place (new CPU, hardware & firmware capabilities, etc.) so it very well could be possible that the actual recording format on-disk and the disk structure may not change.

Perhaps they have a couple of partitions -- one for the program guide information and OS, and another for the recordings? They'd only have to whack the non-recordings one then??
Possibly...but given that the entire Tivo software structure is based on the MFS system, I doubt it.

It sounds to me like TiVo is providing new code to replicate their user interface and features and functions using OCAP on the Motorola hardware and OS platform. It seems unlikely that much of the existing TiVo application code is directly reusable. But having the experience and knowledge of the working TiVo products along with the patented intellectual properties should enable the TiVo folks to produce a product that will easily exceed the quality, reliability and usability of the current iGuide and MSFT products on the 6412 and 3412 family boxes.

I doubt if we are going to see a full Linux product. I suspect the OCAP layer might manage files and low level functions consistently, regardless of whose DVR application is sitting on top of it.

Of course, this is pure speculation on my part, based on bits and pieces I have heard and read on this subject.

Without a change in OS, I doubt TiVo could achieve the performance they provide in their own branded boxes.

Why do you say that? Let's be honest here: Tivo-branded boxes are pretty underpowered as it is. I can't find processor/ram specifics on the Moto boxes, but the DirecTivos have, like, 64mb of RAM and 200MHz MIPS processors. Standalone S2 Tivos have 32mb of RAM. Not whatcha call a powerhouse.

Seems to me that unless there's some amazing limitation in the Moto boxes that I cannot find, Tivo's going to have enough to do writing code for the different tuner hardware, etc. Writing an OS from the ground up (rather than porting their Linux-based platform), which they've never done, seems a waste.

I recently (last month) bought an HD TV, but only had an SD DirecTivo so I had to decide what to do. As much as I love Tivo, I was not going to pay $500 just to get the HD DirecTivo box, so I have installed comcast and got a 6312 III (first I got a II but it was not working properly and I exchanged). Wow, I miss Tivo! Using the 6412 is a chore - I am used to doing alot of pausing, fast forward and skipping around (had Tivo for over 6 years), and this thing is constantly getting stuck or delaying. Series recording? Forget about it. Ugh.

Another thread mentions that D* is pretty much giving away the HR10-250 now. I can't decide if I should wait for the 6412/3412 to go Tivo (assuming it actually will work well, I am afraid it will still have buffer problems), or get get the D* box. I don't like the idea of getting HD lite, or having to use OTA.

What do you folks think? Is the Comcast signal sufficiently superior to put up with the lousy current i-guide until they finally install Tivo some time this year? Ack!

I have used both the HR10-250 and Comcast 6412p.3. In terms of picture quality for both HD and SD, and HD channels (including locals), Comcast is definitely superior. I would suggest that you keep the Comcast, and wait a few weeks or months for either the Comcast/Tivo software or the Tivo Series 3 with cable card. In both cases, you will have the Tivo option and retain the superior HD picture and HD schedule offered by Comcast.

MarkoJ,
I can empathize with you. I was a DirecTV subscriber (with an HD DirecTivo and an SD DirecTivo) until March of this year; I finally couldn't take the soft, over-compressesed version of HD that DirecTV was offering and switched to Comcast. The picture quality of Comcast's HD channels is vastly superior to DirecTV in my area. However, I really miss Tivo's interface (as well as the extra storage space of the HDTivo over the 6412), and I find myself not recording as much as I did in the past. The most significant question for me with DirecTV would be how well their nonTivo-based HD DVR that should be released in the next 6 months or so will compare with a Tivo. I'd be willing to be that it won't be much (if at all) better than the 6412 with i-guide.
Personally, because of Comcast's superior HD, I'm willing to give Comcast a wait and see for how well the Tivo interface is integrated.

I am also in the Comcast Boat on this one. I recently moved and couldn't get a clear shot of the sats from my new place (I will miss Sunday Ticket). The HD quality on Comcast is better than anything I've seen from DirecTV (although haven't seen any of the MPEG4 streams), and we're up to ~17-18 channels in the Boston area.

I am now waiting to see what will happen with this comcast/ Tivo deal. I am optimistic of the new hybrid Tivo/ Moto boxes (it sounds like the best of both worlds on paper), but with only 120-160GB of space, I am not too happy with only about 12-15 hours of HD space available. I may end up trading the OnDemand functionality for 2-3x the space I can get from a Series3 + external SATA drive. One way or the other, I can guarantee that I won't be using the non-TiVo software any longer than I absolutely have to ;)

The space constraints are a beetch. With every TiVo (I've owned 3 different types) you could upgrade the drive. As far as I know we won't be able to upgrade the moto drive with or without tivo. If I"m wrong please tell me. With the 120 gig drive, that's not may saved HD programs.

The space constraints are a beetch. With every TiVo (I've owned 3 different types) you could upgrade the drive. As far as I know we won't be able to upgrade the moto drive with or without tivo. If I"m wrong please tell me. With the 120 gig drive, that's not many saved HD programs.

Possibly...but given that the entire Tivo software structure is based on the MFS system, I doubt it.

Based on the reading of their Media Switch patent, Tivo software just passes pointers to a space on the storage device back and forth between tuner, MPEG encoder/decoder, and the CPU (the media switch) is merely a traffic control, which enables Tivo to get away with lower hardware requirement.

They would have to re-write the interface to the stroage device when porting to Moto boxes, but I don't see the need to re-write the whole thing such as guide, menu, wish list, search, etc. WRT the exsiting recordings, the MPEG data that's stored is multiplexed by Tivo using time stamps. If Moto's current stored MPEG data does not provide the level of indexing that Tivo requires, they might have to re-parse the MPEG data to be Tivo-compatible.

I would guess that they are stuck with anything that is part of and below the OCAP layer provided by Comcast/Cable Labs. If some of the weaknesses of the current implementations are caused by limitations down there, TiVo could have their work cut out for them.

Perhaps they can drive or have already driven some needed changes in OCAP and below to support critical functionality and performance needs.

Isn't speculation without basis fun? Hopefully we will be seeing the real thing soon.

Isn't speculation without basis fun?A bit like masturbation, eh?

Problem is that some folks actually form expectations based on such speculation. That's pretty much counter-productive. If, as has been said, there are limits to how much TiVo can change, then a reasonable expectation would be that the Comcast/TiVo won't be as good as the pure TiVo. A reasonable person would never accept an objective for the two to be comparable, if there were such limitations imposed.

then a reasonable expectation would be that the Comcast/TiVo won't be as good as the pure TiVo. A reasonable person would never accept an objective for the two to be comparable, if there were such limitations imposed.

At this point I'd take a feature set on par with the DirecTiVo boxes (plus on Demand, naturally) if they'd bump up the hard drive size.

-C

... a reasonable expectation would be that the Comcast/TiVo won't be as good as the pure TiVo...
I agree.

Two limiting factors are the middleware/OS/hardware platform limitations and the choices of what TiVo functionality to include/exclude made by Comcast management.

The closest example, the DirecTV with TiVo DVR, shares the same general platform with the stand-alone TiVos but suffers from significant feature/functionality limitations imposed by DirecTV management.

Even so, right now, IMHO, the DirecTV HD TiVo is the best available HD DVR today in terms of ease of use and the reliability of finding and recording desired programs (i.e., Season Passes and Wish Lists).

It could also be that the Moto boxes will be a baby step towards the Panasonic boxes mentioned earlier in the thread, which are far more capable than the Moto ones.

I think it's also worth looking at the Panasonic box and its H.264 capabilities, TiVo's announcement that their software for cable operators will include IPTV abilities, and the disclosure yesterday that Comcast is buying thePlatform (http://www.theplatform.com/ and is used for the Starz Vongo service and ABC's OnDemand service).

There may never be a widespread TiVo-on-Moto rollout because Comcast may want to "upgrade" those customers who end up with the premium DVR service to the Panasonic box and tout features that include the services above.

The more the limitations of the Moto hardware come out, the more I think that may be what we are looking at.

I'd be fine with the Panny replacing the Motorola. The announced features and specs of the panny appear to be very impressive - especially the HDD space!

Any word on how to get on the beta test list? My Comcast DVR ranks top on the list of changeable things in my life that piss me off.

Any word on how to get on the beta test list? My Comcast DVR ranks top on the list of changeable things in my life that piss me off.


Sorry No...

I have three 6412s, one of which has a scheduled recording on PBS from 12am to 4am (Monday) that will not delete. I did not schedule the recording and have tried several times to delete the recording without success. It is not scheduled on the other DVRs. Does this seem to indicate that something is "coming down the pike"?

Pardon! I was able to finally delete the non-scheduled PBS program. I guess that nothing is "coming down the pike". Oh well, maybe Tivo in the next sixty days.

Well, I have decided to forgo the D* HD Tivo offer and keep my lousy 6412 with Iguide in the hopes we will get the Tivo software soon. Thanks for the advice, I do like my Comcast HD picture! I just hate the software (and I am also getting periodic stuttering despite adding a signal booster that has me in a good signal range). Anyway, this can't happen soon enough!

Actually, even just a good firmware update that would solve some of the problems would be great - maybe make it so that when I try to stop fast forwarding that it actually stops?!

As long as there is no alternative for a cable based HD DVR, Comcast is going to sit on its hands, and roll out the Tivo stuff slowly, possibly with subpar features. I wouldn't mind some legit competition from anyone, Sony, Panny, Moxi, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

As soon as there's lots of money to be made (not a few people willing to pay more than a little -- but instead a lot of people willing to pay more than a little), that competition will come.

As soon as there's lots of money to be made (not a few people willing to pay more than a little -- but instead a lot of people willing to pay more than a little), that competition will come.

Not if your cable company has a monopoly in your area and they are the ones and only who decide what STB's their market will use

Yes, even if there is only one cable company in the area. The competition occurs on several levels. First, and foremost, there is always competition from satellite providers. While not every customer can put in a satellite dish, enough can to strongly influence what the cable company must do to maintain its market share. Second, a number of new options are coming down the pike: The better the service provided by the cable company, the more of their customers they'll retain when those options become available: FIOS, IPTV, etc. Even Netflicks has an impact on the cable company and influences what it must do to retain customers.

I just found this thread -- count me in as missing my DirecTivo. A whole lot.

1) Bought my first HDTV
2) Tried to get a decent deal on HD install / HD Tivo from DirecTV
3) DirecTV offers me very little and annoys me
4) Cancel DirecTV / Get Comcast installed
5) Start the new non-Tivo chapter of my home entertainment life

And I gotta say -- while I like the HD feeds, every other part of the equation is worse than DirecTV. My Moto 3412 is my new nemesis. And I can't stand the SD picture quality. My old DirecTV SD looked better than this! I get this horrible distortion that looks like ringing vertical lines. See my post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7990933&&#post7990933

Anyway, I say bring on the Tivo of ANY KIND because I'm drowning in annoyance now.

Call Comcast and complain about the Moto box, bluff to leave for DTV, and see if you can get something out of them. If it's costing them something, it would speed up the Comcast/Tivo process.

I just switched to Comcast for the HD content with DVR for a decent price. I was a directv customer. I e-mailed Comcast regarding Tivo software upgrades for the dvr. According to the response this will NOT happen. They said it would be a new DVR manufactured by Tivo. Below is the exact response...

-------------------------------------------------
Thank you for writing back.

I am aware of the agreement between Comcast and Tivo. We have not been updated on this production.
It will not be a software upgrade to the current equipment, rather a new equipment that will be
manufactured by Tivo. Please keep an eye on your monthly statements as more information regarding
upcoming products will be included. The Tivo equipment is expected to launch in certain areas(no
listed) by end of 2006.

Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions.

Thank you for choosing Comcast.

-------------------------------------------------

Tee hee hee, that's why they are beta testing the software, today, in various regions.

I am aware of the agreement between Comcast and Tivo. We have not been updated on this production. It will not be a software upgrade to the current equipment, rather a new equipment that will be manufactured by Tivo. Please keep an eye on your monthly statements as more information regarding upcoming products will be included. The Tivo equipment is expected to launch in certain areas(no listed) by end of 2006.

That flies in the face of everything everyone has heard - including those of us who have talked with CSRs and asked the same question. And TiVo has not said they are manufacturing any new hardware for this deal - just the software.

Let's be honest: If you are TiVo and Comcast, wouldn't you be hyping the idea that TiVo is manufacturing the hardware?

I'm not calling you a liar, but I suspect the CSR may be misinformed. I just have a hard time believing that the news thus far is dodging this new hardware and keeeping it hidden this well.

Now, if they are going to roll it out on the new Panasonic boxes, then I'd believe that. But TiVo manufacturing hardware for Comcast? They didn't even manufacture the hardware for DirecTV...

I just can't see this happening. The CSR must need a break.

They don't manufacture hardware at all. The Comcast agent said, "We have not been updated on this production." I would take them at their word. It does make sense that there will be a switch-out of hardware, but only because either TiVo software is too "big" to download via coax, and/or needs to be validated once installed.

Here is a PDF my boss pointed out to me.

It mentions the release of a TiVo Branded DVR.

http://www.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/14/147565/Comcast_DVR_Factsheet_Q106.pdf

That PDF is interesting. I wonder if "TiVo Branded" means Series 3 or Motorola w/ TiVo software. And does it mean TiVo branding on the box or on the screen?

Also, the line that really got my attention was the one below TiVo regarding web-based scheduling. I wonder if that is referring to the TiVo feature or a new feature for the iGuide software.

They don't manufacture hardware at all. The Comcast agent said, "We have not been updated on this production." I would take them at their word. It does make sense that there will be a switch-out of hardware, but only because either TiVo software is too "big" to download via coax, and/or needs to be validated once installed.

I didn't say Comcast manufactured hardware.

I was saying TiVo does. Now, whether they actually manufacture them or not is another story, but they do have TiVo-branded and -sold boxes and then there are TiVo licenses (Humax, Hughes, etc.) out there. I can't see TiVo putting whatever their manufacturing resources are into making a box for Comcast (they didn't for DirecTV, after all), and Comcast wouldn't be manufacturing a box, thus the software has to run on something from someone else.

Could I see a TiVo & Comcast branded Panasonic box? Yes, I could (they are just stickers, after all), and I have a suspicion that's the way they may end up going as I agree with your argument that a box swap may be in-store for us. I don't think the software is all that large or problematic, but I do think the Moto boxes are underpowered for what Comcast and TiVo seem to want this service to do.

Meanwhile, a new rumor has appeared:

http://www.satelliteguys.us/showthread.php?p=594821#post594821

To sum it up: ComcasTiVo (huh... doesn't have the same ring as "DirecTiVo") in Q4 this year with all the same features as the SA TiVo boxes with the exception of broadband delivery of content (but that might be coming soon).

Interesting time for rumors, I'll say that.

Here is a PDF my boss pointed out to me.

It mentions the release of a TiVo Branded DVR.

http://www.corporate-ir.net/media_files/irol/14/147565/Comcast_DVR_Factsheet_Q106.pdf

Nice link. I downloaded it, but my machine iis telling me it was created today. When was this released?

I wonder if the Comcast party line is changing...

I didn't say Comcast manufactured hardware.

I was saying TiVo does. Yes, I know. TiVo doesn't manufacture hardware. That was I was saying.

Sorry: "That was what I was saying."

God, I wish I knew someone who worked at Comcast. I would do a lot to get my hands on one of those Tivo boxes right now. Seriously an alpha Tivo box probably works better than my production Moto . . .

It occurs that some of the confusion regarding hardware by CSR's could be coming from the fact that at least some of the cable providers will be moving to this box, Pace Micro Tahoe (http://www.pacemicro.com/americas/products/prodinfo.asp?PID=TDC775HDDVR). I spoke with a CSR at my provider (Bresnan Communications who have some agreement with Comcast for hardware support), and she told me that they would be moving to the Tahoe box in about six months (after checking with a higher-up who gave her the link to the Tahoe box). Is it possible that Pace Micro is building the box that will be TiVo-branded?

I called Comcast last night. I'm being switched to TWC. :(

Yes, I know. TiVo doesn't manufacture hardware. That was I was saying.

And, as I said: Whether TiVo manufactures hardware or not isn't the point. Let's be honest: Unlike a car company, very few computer makers or STB makers actually "manufacture" their own hardware in their own plants any longer (maybe Motorola does), and the rest of the folks (Apple, Dell, etc.) go to various (usually Asian) companies and get them to bid on the manfacturing contracts. And then, of course, most of the things that need to be designed any longer tend to only be the motherboards and the external chassis - the rest (the HDD, the chipsets, the I/O ports, etc.) come from parts suppliers.

So, no, TiVo doesn't manufacture the hardware per se - they contract that out. They do, however, design their boxes and oversee the manufacturing process (I doubt they oversee the manufacturing on, let's say, the Humax boxes). I, myself, still consider that to be a TiVo-manufactured box at that point, even if it's not being fabricated in a some non-existant TiVo factory in SoCal but by a crew of contracted workers in Taiwan.

Thus, to get back to the original point of the argument, I can't see TiVo designing and using their manufacturing resources on a Comcast-exclusive box when they never did for DirecTV (that is, considering how large of a user base they got from DTV). The only way I can see something like that happening is if TiVo is creating a standard STB for any cable company to use, instead of trying to get the software running on a Moto or Panny or Scientific Atlanta box that wasn't designed from the start with TiVo in mind. Since the deal with Comcast is non-exclusive, then I could see that happening, but not a Comcast-exclusive box.

I think it's more likely that the Panny box will get a set of TiVo and Comcast stickers slapped on it, get a "TiVo with On Demand" remote thrown in the box, and that will be the "TiVo-branded DVR" scanpa found out about and will be the "TiVo hardware" mentioned by the CSR.

I just switched to Comcast for the HD content with DVR for a decent price. I was a directv customer. I e-mailed Comcast regarding Tivo software upgrades for the dvr. According to the response this will NOT happen. They said it would be a new DVR manufactured by Tivo. Below is the exact response...

-------------------------------------------------
Thank you for writing back.

I am aware of the agreement between Comcast and Tivo. We have not been updated on this production.
It will not be a software upgrade to the current equipment, rather a new equipment that will be
manufactured by Tivo. Please keep an eye on your monthly statements as more information regarding
upcoming products will be included. The Tivo equipment is expected to launch in certain areas(no
listed) by end of 2006.

Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions.

Thank you for choosing Comcast.

-------------------------------------------------

I'm afraid the person that wrote you that note from Comcast is misinformed. If you can PM me with the details, we'll see if we can help get them the correct information.

They may be thinking of the TiVo Series3 DVR, which is a separate piece of hardware (dual tuner cablecard box).

But the Comcast partnership is to bring the TiVo DVR experience to the Motorola platform. It is a software update to the Motorola settop hardware Comcast is currently deploying.

Pony

But the Comcast partnership is to bring the TiVo DVR experience to the Motorola platform. It is a software update to the Motorola settop hardware Comcast is currently deploying.

Pony
One of my major desires in this scenario is that the TiVo sftwr fixes all the horrible interface (and functionality) problems-nightmares that the current batch of Moto boxes have. :mad:

shane

One of my major desires in this scenario is that the TiVo sftwr fixes all the horrible interface (and functionality) problems-nightmares that the current batch of Moto boxes have.
That would seem very likely...I'd wager the serious majority of issues are software-related.

That would seem very likely...I'd wager the serious majority of issues are software-related.
Oh... a bettin' man, eh? :D

Sure hope you're right. I would have assumed that firmware was the answer, but changes have not solved these issues so far. :mad:

shane

I'm afraid the person that wrote you that note from Comcast is misinformed. If you can PM me with the details, we'll see if we can help get them the correct information.

They may be thinking of the TiVo Series3 DVR, which is a separate piece of hardware (dual tuner cablecard box).

But the Comcast partnership is to bring the TiVo DVR experience to the Motorola platform. It is a software update to the Motorola settop hardware Comcast is currently deploying.

Pony
Thanks for the info TiVoPony, maybe you could stop by here more often. :)

BTW, any time frame on the Series3 CC-capable DVR?

TiVo says "soon" but no new date has been set

According to a filing with the FCC, TiVo is currently in the final stages of testing its Series3 DVR set top box. The filing indicated that the new Series3 is already in the hands of several select consumers across the country.

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=3405

I just picked this item up, things get increasingly interesting...

http://www.tivotoday.com/rumor_comcast_may_roll_out_tivo_dvr_early_q4_or_sooner

I just picked this item up on a DVR Website who's name may not be said. Things get increasingly interesting...

http://www.tivotoday.com/rumor_comcast_may_roll_out_tivo_dvr_early_q4_or_sooner

Very interesting. If they enable the eSATA port as well, I'm in. Otherwise, I'm going Series 3 for the extra space :D

Very interesting. If they enable the eSATA port as well, I'm in. Otherwise, I'm going Series 3 for the extra space :D
Not a bad thought, but if Comcast enables MRV on these boxes then it might be an even better idea to just rent another one. Especially if they come out with a 160GB or 250GB version.

It's impossible to know right now because we don't have a price on the Series 3 and we don't know what Comcast will charge for the "TiVo experience" but it could play out really well to just rent a couple boxes rather than buy your own series 3 and upgrade it.

Not a bad thought, but if Comcast enables MRV on these boxes then it might be an even better idea to just rent another one. Especially if they come out with a 160GB or 250GB version.

It's impossible to know right now because we don't have a price on the Series 3 and we don't know what Comcast will charge for the "TiVo experience" but it could play out really well to just rent a couple boxes rather than buy your own series 3 and upgrade it.The problem with that is the moto boxes don't have multi-remote code support like real Tivo hardware does. So, you can't put more than one in a room and have them work separately. Also, you won't have access to all the content on all the boxes from one place.

- Mike

The problem with that is the moto boxes don't have multi-remote code support like real Tivo hardware does. So, you can't put more than one in a room and have them work separately. Also, you won't have access to all the content on all the boxes from one place.
I would guess that the logic to interpret IR codes is in software. I would be really surprised if that logic was hardwired. Maybe someone who writes software for CE devices like this can tell us. I know that sometimes there are frequency range limitations in hardware, but I suspect that the recognition of codes and the instructions regarding what to do when the box sees a certain code are implemented in software.

Also, you would have access to all the content on all boxes from one place if they implement MRV, which was the caveat I made at the very beginning of my post. Seems like it could be possible and there is an ethernet port on the back of the box that could support it.

The problem with that is the moto boxes don't have multi-remote code support like real Tivo hardware does. So, you can't put more than one in a room and have them work separately. Also, you won't have access to all the content on all the boxes from one place.I'm currently able to some of this just fine with both a Motorola HD box and a Motorola SD box -- the SD box is in a cabinet and is driven by my SD TiVo via IR Blaster fed through a hole in the back of the cabinet, so I can change channels on the two boxes separately, in the same room. However, I cannot get the TiVo to do any DVR functions on the Motorola box. So, I wonder if there is a device (maybe a Universal Remote kind of thing) that you can hit with its own remote, and it'll drive another device via an IR Blaster?

I'm afraid the person that wrote you that note from Comcast is misinformed. If you can PM me with the details, we'll see if we can help get them the correct information.

They may be thinking of the TiVo Series3 DVR, which is a separate piece of hardware (dual tuner cablecard box).

But the Comcast partnership is to bring the TiVo DVR experience to the Motorola platform. It is a software update to the Motorola settop hardware Comcast is currently deploying.

PonyThis is 100% correct.

Just switched to E* from Comcast. I hope 18 months from now Comcast in my area (which is usually the last to get upgrades) will have a stable HD Tivo unit with firewire, and all the new HDs added too. I can then dust off my JVC DVHS VCR again!

does every cableco have to have a card that works with tivo? My tiny cableco had the moxi box now. If i could use S3 with it, may be an option for me down the road.

All cablecos are supposed to provide cablecard, as far as I know; even the tiny ones.

good news indeed. So then tivo gets the data from service electric and SE must provide a card right? I just didnt know if a cable co can do anything to prevent me from getting a working tivo

good news indeed. So then tivo gets the data from service electric and SE must provide a card right? I just didnt know if a cable co can do anything to prevent me from getting a working tivo

They can't prevent you but doesn't mean they will help you. I also have a small cableco and still didn't get my cablecard to work well with my Mistubishi 73927 after 2 replacements and 4 tech visits. Be prepared for a lot of fingerpointing when the S3 comes up.

Sergio

I...
If one has Cable, there isn't much need for OTA unless it is a VERY OLD cable system and they aren't even running networks in HD.Many cable systems that have local HD do not have all local hd channels due to squabbling over money. For instance my market (Roanoke/Lynchburg) doesn't have NBC HD and the one immediately to the south of me (Greensboro/High Point/Winston-Salem) doesn't have ABC HD.

I wonder if the Tivo software will forget the box is a DVR if I lose power for a few seconds, and lose all the guide data as well and have to download it, like the current iguide Moto boxes?

I wonder if the Tivo software will forget the box is a DVR if I lose power for a few seconds, and lose all the guide data as well and have to download it, like the current iguide Moto boxes?

Thats do to the hardware in the DCT series STB. it has nothing to do with the software your using on the STB. there are no power caps on the STB Memory to keep it from blanking out when the STb looses power.

for those who own there own STB, it is a easy $2.00 fix......

I wonder if the Tivo software will forget the box is a DVR if I lose power for a few seconds, and lose all the guide data as well and have to download it, like the current iguide Moto boxes?

spend as much or little as you want but a UPS is a wonderful thing to protect your investment. Especially if you have expensive equipment like a tv

Thats do to the hardware in the DCT series STB. it has nothing to do with the software your using on the STB. there are no power caps on the STB Memory to keep it from blanking out when the STb looses power.

for those who own there own STB, it is a easy $2.00 fix......
It is a software issue. All they have to do is store it on the HD instead of only in memory. Not only would this allow it to survive a power loss, it could probably hold the full 2 weeks with full descriptions for all programs. Currently, the last 2 or 3 days often have no program descriptions.

spend as much or little as you want but a UPS is a wonderful thing to protect your investment. Especially if you have expensive equipment like a tv


Only use a UPS, if it has a power conditioning system to keep the outgoing voltage exact. Most of the cheap ones do not, and this could cause more damage to the STB then not having a UPS.

It is a software issue. All they have to do is store it on the HD instead of only in memory. Not only would this allow it to survive a power loss, it could probably hold the full 2 weeks with full descriptions for all programs. Currently, the last 2 or 3 days often have no program descriptions.

Do to the way the current Iguide data is sent in bursts over the cable, it is not feasable to store it on the HDD. It would then hog up most of the HDD CPU cycles and recorded programs from both the tuners would have a higher fail rate. The only thing stored on the HDD is your recording settings.

from the few specs we have got for the OCAP based software, it looks like the OCAP based STB will store info on the HDD, since the data is sent in a fill in data format.

Do to the way the current Iguide data is sent in bursts over the cable, it is not feasable to store it on the HDD. It would then hog up most of the HDD CPU cycles and recorded programs from both the tuners would have a higher fail rate. The only thing stored on the HDD is your recording settings.

from the few specs we have got for the OCAP based software, it looks like the OCAP based STB will store info on the HDD, since the data is sent in a fill in data format.

What about the Comcast/Tivo software. My understanding is that its not OCAP. Will it store the guide info on disk as both the standalone and directv Tivo's do?

What about the Comcast/Tivo software. My understanding is that its not OCAP. Will it store the guide info on disk as both the standalone and directv Tivo's do?

No the TiVo Software is not OCAP based. However the DCT 3412 & 6412 are built to handle OCAP software. How the guide data is sent to the STB has nothing to do with the STB software.

as soon as we get the specs on the new software, I plan on turning it into a PDF to make available.

Were still waiting here in south central Pa.

Only use a UPS, if it has a power conditioning system to keep the outgoing voltage exact. Most of the cheap ones do not, and this could cause more damage to the STB then not having a UPS.

good advice. I guess I was wrong to assume when people spend thousands for a tv, tivos, dvd burners, computers....that they would spend $$$ for the 'right' UPS. Amazes me when I see people looking for the 'cheapest' of something to protect their $3000 investment. I have 2 belkin 1200s for computer and whole tv system. Very happy and feel safe :)

<sigh>

belkin (used to) have code 12345 that gives you 1/2 off on their website if anyone's in the market for one.

good advice. I guess I was wrong to assume when people spend thousands for a tv, tivos, dvd burners, computers....that they would spend $$$ for the 'right' UPS. Amazes me when I see people looking for the 'cheapest' of something to protect their $3000 investment. I have 2 belkin 1200s for computer and whole tv system. Very happy and feel safe :)

<sigh>

belkin (used to) have code 12345 that gives you 1/2 off on their website if anyone's in the market for one.

Looks like the coupon still works. I was thinking about getting a couple of the 1100s for my home theater and PC. I'm actually as interested in the AVR (line conditioning) features as I am in the UPS, given that we live in an older home on an older street with older wiring and lots of fluctuations in the power flow.

if the coupon works....well i'd do it...just last night in the storm the old ups kicked in and saved my ass for the 10th time this year ...at least...the AC died and sounded sick so had to turn that off but we continued watching tv without so much a hiccup.

now if we could just get DTVs signal to pentrate severe clouds it would be great..thankfully ota worked fine.

Yes, the coupon does work, I just ordered 3 UPS systems. Discount on the $199 model down to $119.

Looks like the coupon still works. I was thinking about getting a couple of the 1100s for my home theater and PC. I'm actually as interested in the AVR (line conditioning) features as I am in the UPS, given that we live in an older home on an older street with older wiring and lots of fluctuations in the power flow.

So in your opinion, it is OK to use a UPS system geared towards computer on AV equipment? If so, in your opinion, what capacity do I need if I am running a Pio 4270, with 1 DVD player, 1 stereo (Old 2.1), and 1 Comcast Moto 6412 cablebox?

So, no new chat about the Comcast Tivo? I just left DirecTV for the Comcast HD DVR package. Of course, this means I'll be watching this site daily for word of the Tivo updgrade for the Comcast DVR package. Or the S3 - whichever comes first!

Drewj.
I did the same thing... went from SD DirecTivo to HD Comcrap.
Where are you and what DVR did you get?

shane

So, no new chat about the Comcast Tivo? I just left DirecTV for the Comcast HD DVR package. Of course, this means I'll be watching this site daily for word of the Tivo updgrade for the Comcast DVR package. Or the S3 - whichever comes first!

Drewj.
I did the same thing... went from SD DirecTivo to HD Comcrap.
Where are you and what DVR did you get?

shane

I am contemplating the same thing. Have been with D* for four years and generally am pleased with the exception of HD pq and recordable locals. Even though I use OTA for recording locals, I would really like to get FSN-BA in HD but can not without the H20 and even then would not be able to record. Now that TiVo will be switching to Comcast I am thinking now may be the time to change. In your opinions, how is their DVR and overall pq and compared to D*? Is it worth the switch? Any idea when Comcast will be using TiVo? I am located in east/north bay of the bay area in Ca.
Thanks!

Drewj.
I did the same thing... went from SD DirecTivo to HD Comcrap.
Where are you and what DVR did you get?


Hey Shane. I'm in the Denver area and got the Motorola 3412. Now that I've had a couple full days with the service, I'll give you my thoughts on it. For background, I've been a D* customer for about 10 years, with DTivo for the last 4 or so. I just bought a 50" plasma, so felt the need to give Comcast a try, despite the horror stories I hear from the forums. Now that I have it, it's not as bad as I was expecting...

DVR While the DVR in no way compares to DTivo, it's not as bad I was expecting. That's not to say that it's not bad, but I guess I thought it would be unusable. I seem to have a random problem where the audio/video suddenly goes out while I'm watching a recorded program. From the other problems I've heard of, I think I'll just deal with this for now. It's hard to stop the fast forward just where you want to. Scheduling recordings is a lot harder than with Tivo. DVR Overall Score: 4/10

Hi Def This makes the lousy DVR all worth it. Even SD programming looks better than D* channels. I find myself watching the Discovery HD Theater channel for hours. The only downside is that all channels aren't HD. HD Overall Score: 9/10

Conclusion Am I happy with Comcast? Well, surprisingly more than I thought I'd be. I'm sure frustrations will arise, but for now, I'm happy. Of course, the second it's available, I'm going to be buying a S3 or paying for the Tivo software upgrade on the Comcast box.

Remember the old "I want my MTV" ads that effectively got the music channel on most cable lineups? We need a "I want my Comcast TiVo" ad so we can at least get some release date info. Yes, I want my Comcast TiVo!! (Where is Sting when you need him?) :)

Remember the old "I want my MTV" ads that effectively got the music channel on most cable lineups? We need a "I want my Comcast TiVo" ad so we can at least get some release date info. Yes, I want my Comcast TiVo!! (Where is Sting when you need him?) :)
Don't you mean Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits? Or maybe you are thinking of the Live Aid guest appearance?

Don't you mean Mark Knopfler of Dire Straits? Or maybe you are thinking of the Live Aid guest appearance?

No, he doesn't. Sting did the voiceover for the "I want my MTV" in the Dire Straits song.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_for_Nothing_(song)

Yeah, wait til the DVR stops doing FF/REW or just stops working altogether. Then you'll want to throw your 3412 thru the wall.

My advice? Get a lamp cord with an inline rocker switch, cut the end off and splice it onto an extension cord. Plug the 3412 into that, with the switch hanging in a convienent location. Then you can FLIP the power on and off, without fiddling around behind your entertainment center pulling cords... That's what I did. Makes the daily/weekly reboots much less painful!

Yeah, wait til the DVR stops doing FF/REW or just stops working altogether. Then you'll want to throw your 3412 thru the wall.

My advice? Get a lamp cord with an inline rocker switch, cut the end off and splice it onto an extension cord. Plug the 3412 into that, with the switch hanging in a convienent location. Then you can FLIP the power on and off, without fiddling around behind your entertainment center pulling cords... That's what I did. Makes the daily/weekly reboots much less painful!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004SQHI/sr=1-1/qid=1155297568/ref=sr_1_1/104-8743992-3749513?ie=UTF8&s=hi

would be easier i would think....and there's even other remote options if you look

Yeah, wait til the DVR stops doing FF/REW or just stops working altogether. Then you'll want to throw your 3412 thru the wall.

My advice? Get a lamp cord with an inline rocker switch, cut the end off and splice it onto an extension cord. Plug the 3412 into that, with the switch hanging in a convienent location. Then you can FLIP the power on and off, without fiddling around behind your entertainment center pulling cords... That's what I did. Makes the daily/weekly reboots much less painful!

Wow. You know, I had one heck of a time with my 6412 Series III. It was very unreliable and incredibly frustrating. However, when I upgraded to the 3412, I haven't had a single serious problem in the 7 months I've had it. The only issue I've come across is that I'll turn things on and I get a black screen. A quick change of the channel or bringing up a menu resolves the problem.

So, for all of you who have serious issues with your 3412, you can rest assured that there are definitely some that work relatively flawlessly.

So, for all of you who have serious issues with your 3412, you can rest assured that there are definitely some that work relatively flawlessly.

That's what worries me. If some 3412s work flawlessly and others don't, and this can't be traced to software / firmware version, then it's likely that 3412s are plagued by hardware issues. If so, no amount of software that TiVo writes will be able to fix them.

No, I don't think that's it either. Rather, I think it has more to do with how grounded the expectations are on which evaluations are made.

That's what worries me. If some 3412s work flawlessly and others don't, and this can't be traced to software / firmware version, then it's likely that 3412s are plagued by hardware issues. If so, no amount of software that TiVo writes will be able to fix them.

And the good news about this is that, unlike TiVo, we rent the 3412 box. So, simply exchange away until you get one that works. Since we know that some can work, it's a matter of how much effort you're willing to put into getting one that works for you.

The added benefit of this is that these exchanges cost Comcast money, and when that line item gets to a number that begins to bother management, they might inject some institutional rigor around what boxes and OEMs they decide are "good enough" for their customers.

So, no new chat about the Comcast Tivo? I just left DirecTV for the Comcast HD DVR package. Of course, this means I'll be watching this site daily for word of the Tivo upgrade for the Comcast DVR package. Or the S3 - whichever comes first!
Right there with you, 'cept without the S3 part. (Too spendy of a solution.) I just got an HDTV, so now I have an HDTV cable box in one input, and an S2 with a standard-def box slaved to it in another. Totally unwieldy, totally annoying. (Inelegant solutions offend me. :)) The things we do so we can watch hockey while the Tivo records something. :)

I'd give the left body part of your choosing to replace it all with one single box. But I won't give up my Tivo to replace it with the Comcast DVR, which by all reports appears to be absolutely awful. (Plus I like having the ability to transfer programming back and forth between my PC and the Tivo.)

If there are any reports AT ALL about the Comcast Tivo boxes being in the wild, even in beta test, I'd love to hear about them. So far all I'm hearing is this ethereal "Q4", and I'm not sure if by that they mean calendar or fiscal year.

Do to the way the current Iguide data is sent in bursts over the cable, it is not feasable to store it on the HDD. It would then hog up most of the HDD CPU cycles and recorded programs from both the tuners would have a higher fail rate. The only thing stored on the HDD is your recording settings.

from the few specs we have got for the OCAP based software, it looks like the OCAP based STB will store info on the HDD, since the data is sent in a fill in data format.

And what exactly is this based on? What exactly is a HDD CPU cycle, never heard of that one? Why would have a higher failer rate of recorded programs?

PATA Drives handle ~100M Bytes/s
SATA Drives handle ~150M Bytes/s

HD over cable is about 18M bits/s data rate. DOCSIS downlink over a 6MHz channel only supports ~40M bits/s. The I-guide data is aweful small.

Your logic seems to be flawed.

CCourtney

PATA Drives handle ~100M Bytes/s
SATA Drives handle ~150M Bytes/s

This is true only if the disk writes continuously. Once you need to seek to a given position, you lose ~9 milliseconds. So, if iGuide data is sent in bursts, with (say) a burst every few minutes, and this happens while recording, then the hard disk head would have to jump (every few minutes) to write the guide data, then jump back to wherever it was writing the recorded program. That's 18 ms lost, right there.

(By the way, if recording two HD programs at once, they are most likely written interleaved on disk, in order to avoid seeks as much as possible; a few disk blocks from one program, followed by a few disk blocks from the other. When playing one, you're essentially reading both from disk, but that doesn't matter, as the disk bandwidth is not the limiting factor here. Makes for interesting filesystem structures, to say the least. I'll go out on a limb and claim that the main cause of stuttering while recording HD is data dropped due to disk seeks.)

Now, I'm not saying this is not solvable, and I trust TiVo more than Motorola to be able to solve it. You could interleave the guide data with the program(s) being recorded, and then collect it and move it to a sane place on disk when the system is idle; you could cache the last few hours' worth of bursts in memory, and only write them to disk when not recording; and probably other solutions that I haven't thought of.

This is true only if the disk writes continuously. Once you need to seek to a given position, you lose ~9 milliseconds. So, if iGuide data is sent in bursts, with (say) a burst every few minutes, and this happens while recording, then the hard disk head would have to jump (every few minutes) to write the guide data, then jump back to wherever it was writing the recorded program. That's 18 ms lost, right there.

(By the way, if recording two HD programs at once, they are most likely written interleaved on disk, in order to avoid seeks as much as possible; a few disk blocks from one program, followed by a few disk blocks from the other. When playing one, you're essentially reading both from disk, but that doesn't matter, as the disk bandwidth is not the limiting factor here. Makes for interesting filesystem structures, to say the least. I'll go out on a limb and claim that the main cause of stuttering while recording HD is data dropped due to disk seeks.)

Now, I'm not saying this is not solvable, and I trust TiVo more than Motorola to be able to solve it. You could interleave the guide data with the program(s) being recorded, and then collect it and move it to a sane place on disk when the system is idle; you could cache the last few hours' worth of bursts in memory, and only write them to disk when not recording; and probably other solutions that I haven't thought of.


While I won't disagree with the amount of seek time it takes to move the head around, I'll disagree that it cannot easily be done.

18ms is about 1/56 of a second, so the turn around time is a little more than a single frame. There's no logical reason to even write MPEG data frame by frame as your frames are mostly not real frames. P-I-I-D-I-I-D-I-I-D-I-I-P-I-I-D.... where P is a full frame of data information, D is a 'Difference Frame' (the changes between the previous full frame or reconstructed difference frame), and I are interpolated frames based on the previous full/reconstructed frame and the next full/reconstructed frame. Note that P frames come either every 12th or 15th frame. This would be a more logical place to do writes to the HDD as the vast amount of data is in the P frames. Further little to no data is in the I frames (they're generated by the MPEG player based on the surrounding P and D frames)

Basically the I-guide implementation was crappy, and there's not a reason why it could not be stored on the HDD, please don't make excuses for poor SW implementations as it's a SW limitation not a HW limitation.

BTW, on my HTPC I have absolutly no problem recording the .ts (transport stream) that my DVR is seeing to my HDD over firewire while simulatenously playing a ripped DVD from my HDD. One hell of a lot more accesses going on here and there's no interleaving of the data. But the transport stream is buffered, and the accesses of the DVD ISO file is more in bursts, so it handles it w/o a problem.

That said, get a decent UPS and don't worry about it ;-)

CCourtney

One item I don't think has been mentioned is buffering. The drive itself usually has a buffer (2M is common, with 16M on some high-end drives), plus you can use system memory itself to buffer several seconds of video both ways. As long as the drive can read/write faster than the total video data rate, it should keep up.

So in your opinion, it is OK to use a UPS system geared towards computer on AV equipment? If so, in your opinion, what capacity do I need if I am running a Pio 4270, with 1 DVD player, 1 stereo (Old 2.1), and 1 Comcast Moto 6412 cablebox?

You're asking the wrong guy, for I am not an expert in these matters. In fact, from what the HT Guys say in their podcast, you shouldn't use the same kind of UPS for a computer and a HT system...Something to do with the "sine wave." I'm sure there are multiple threads here about the subject. Now I just need to get up the motivation to look one up...

You're asking the wrong guy, for I am not an expert in these matters. In fact, from what the HT Guys say in their podcast, you shouldn't use the same kind of UPS for a computer and a HT system...Something to do with the "sine wave." I'm sure there are multiple threads here about the subject. Now I just need to get up the motivation to look one up...


Any UPS you use with a STB, or HD equipment needs to have a power conditioning circuit.

This keeps the output Voltage from changing.

Any UPS you use with a STB, or HD equipment needs to have a power conditioning circuit.

This keeps the output Voltage from changing.

Thanks for this!! I decided to play it safe and go with a Belkin PF40... So no UPS, but a good power conditioner

Any UPS you use with a STB, or HD equipment needs to have a power conditioning circuit.

This keeps the output Voltage from changing.

do you mean you should or shouldn't use one with AVR for tivo etc?

do you mean you should or shouldn't use one with AVR for tivo etc?

If you use any type of UPS or Power Strips, make sure it has a power conditioning circuit.

Yes you should use one.

If you use any type of UPS or Power Strips, make sure it has a power conditioning circuit.

Yes you should use one.

If you have separates (like I do) is it OK to plug a UPS/surge protector into a power conditioner/voltage regulator? I've had it that way for a while with no issues, but now you guys have me wondering.

ok good...both my PC and tivo/tv setup have AVR

So is Comcast getting the Tivo software program started any time soon? It's been well over a year since they announced it.

I finally jumped to FiOS TV when I was told last month (by a Comcast VP) that the Tivo software deployment was delayed until 1Q 2007.

Comcast also wants to have their updated iGuide software out before the Tivo software. If almost makes you wonder whether the whole thing is just a mirage to keep customers with the service, or perhaps they're hoping that customers will settle for their updated iGuide instead.

I finally jumped to FiOS TV when I was told last month (by a Comcast VP) that the Tivo software deployment was delayed until 1Q 2007.

Comcast also wants to have their updated iGuide software out before the Tivo software. If almost makes you wonder whether the whole thing is just a mirage to keep customers with the service, or perhaps they're hoping that customers will settle for their updated iGuide instead.

It is in Beta Testing and is currently still set for a last Qtr 2006 (November / December) release in the first few Markets.

Well I guess I'll be sticking with DirecTV for a while.

Wow; that's bad news that the Tivo interface has slipped so far. The longer that I have the 6412, the more frustrated I become with it -- missed recordings, recordings that are unwatchable because of pixelation/no audio (even when I watched part of it live while it was recording and there was no pixelation and the audio was fine), etc. This is my third unit and all have had a myriad of problems.

Seeing as how DirecTV is soon to release their new HR20-700 HD DVR, Verizon has their FIOS TV, and Tivo hopefully will soon be releasing their series 3 HD Tivo, I'm hoping that Comcast will soon be feeling some competitive heat to give us a box/software that is less buggy.

It is in Beta Testing and is currently still set for a last Qtr 2006 (November / December) release in the first few Markets.

Any ideas what those first few markets will be? Boston? Boston? Please?

How about TiVo's own backyard first, the SF bay area? :p

How about TiVo's own backyard first, the SF bay area? :p
Let's see, Tivo is out of Alviso, isn't that a 550 MHz area, just like you and I are in ??? Maybe they are like Comcast and just don't like us ;)

Laters,
Mikef5

Let's see, Tivo is out of Alviso, isn't that a 550 MHz area, just like you and I are in ??? Maybe they are like Comcast and just don't like us ;)

Laters,
Mikef5
Yep, it's a conspiracy, no doubt about it. :D

How about TiVo's own backyard first, the SF bay area? :p

It's much more important for them to test it in Comcast's backyard. ;)

Is there any chance that the Tivo 3 or the Comcast Tivo are being made by Pace. Pace announced a new contract with Comcast last year, soon after the Tivo Comcast announcement. The delayed Tivo delivery times are similar to Pace’s reported delays with Comcast
Pace have just started delivering the HR20-700 to DirecTV

Is there any chance that the Tivo 3 or the Comcast Tivo are being made by Pace. Pace announced a new contract with Comcast last year, soon after the Tivo Comcast announcement. The delayed Tivo delivery times are similar to Pace’s reported delays with Comcast
Pace have just started delivering the HR20-700 to DirecTV


The TiVo deal with Comcast is not for building a new DVR, but DVR software for the /\/\otorola DCT-64xxp3 & DCT-34xxp1 & DCT-34xxp2 STB, that are already in use.

This software is now in Beta, and is due out in Nov. / Dec. 2006 in aprox. 5 - 10 Markets covering the States of PA, De, MD, NJ, IL, MA.

For more info, please read the insert in your monthly Bill Statement each month. This is where they will post it.

TiVo Locks Up Cox

By Steve Donohue
Multichannel
8/24/2006 4:53:00 PM

TiVo stock jumped about 6% Thursday after it cut a deal with Cox Communications to distribute its digital-video-recorder software and interactive-advertising service on the MSO’s generic set-tops from Scientific Atlanta and Motorola.

The agreement is a big boost for TiVo CEO Tom Rogers, who scored a similar agreement with Comcast in March 2005.

TiVo’s biggest challenge now is to integrate its software with SA and Motorola set-tops. It has been more than one year since Comcast cut its TiVo deal, and the MSO has yet to roll out the service.

Cox spokesman David Grabert said Cox will initially deploy TiVo on Motorola set-tops in early 2007. TiVo will be available on SA set-tops at a later date. Comcast has a similar deployment schedule with TiVo.

Cox currently charges its customers $9.95 monthly for generic DVR service running on SA and Motorola set-tops, in addition to the fees it charges subscribers for digital cable. Grabert said Cox hasn’t yet determined what it will charge for TiVo service, but it would likely cost customers a $3-$5 monthly premium compared with what the MSO charges for its generic DVRs.

http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleid=CA6365434

Is there any more information about Comcast deploying TiVo on SA set-tops?

TiVo Locks Up Cox

By Steve Donohue
Multichannel
8/24/2006 4:53:00 PM

TiVo stock jumped about 6% Thursday after it cut a deal with Cox Communications to distribute its digital-video-recorder software and interactive-advertising service on the MSO’s generic set-tops from Scientific Atlanta and Motorola.

The agreement is a big boost for TiVo CEO Tom Rogers, who scored a similar agreement with Comcast in March 2005.

TiVo’s biggest challenge now is to integrate its software with SA and Motorola set-tops. It has been more than one year since Comcast cut its TiVo deal, and the MSO has yet to roll out the service.

Cox spokesman David Grabert said Cox will initially deploy TiVo on Motorola set-tops in early 2007. TiVo will be available on SA set-tops at a later date. Comcast has a similar deployment schedule with TiVo.

Cox currently charges its customers $9.95 monthly for generic DVR service running on SA and Motorola set-tops, in addition to the fees it charges subscribers for digital cable. Grabert said Cox hasn’t yet determined what it will charge for TiVo service, but it would likely cost customers a $3-$5 monthly premium compared with what the MSO charges for its generic DVRs.

http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleid=CA6365434

Is there any more information about Comcast deploying TiVo on SA set-tops?

not that I have heard at work. But we only use /\/\otorola STB here, and soon will be using the new Panasonic STB.

The TiVo deal with Comcast is not for building a new DVR, but DVR software for the /\/\otorola DCT-64xxp3 & DCT-34xxp1 & DCT-34xxp2 STB, that are already in use.

we only use /\/\otorola STB here, and soon will be using the new Panasonic STB.
Since my area never had a 6412 p1, we started with p2, maybe your area never had a p2 or p1?

So, the question is, is it possible that a 6412 p1 or p2 will work with Tivo software or are you sure it is only 6412 p3 and 3412 p1 p2?

When is the Panny box scheduled?

Will it run our choice of IGuide or Tivo software?

Since my area never had a 6412 p1, we started with p2, maybe your area never had a p2 or p1?

So, the question is, is it possible that a 6412 p1 or p2 will work with Tivo software or are you sure it is only 6412 p3 and 3412 p1 p2?

When is the Panny box scheduled?

Will it run our choice of IGuide or Tivo software?

All 6412p1 & 6412p2 STB should have been returned and/ or swapped out by now with the newer equipment.

The 6208, 6412p1, & 6412p2 are all discontinued /\/\oto STB. They use a less advanced CPU. AFAIK only the 64xxp3 & 34xxp1 & 34xxp2 STB will be able to run TiVo, but dont quote me on that. I will ask monday, at work.

Panasonic HD DVR STB are expected for roll out in 1st. Qrtr. 2007.

It will use a OCAP software Guide program. Unknown what, or who as of yet.

Harrisburg region of comcast is getting 4 new HD channels before end of year.
Also full roll out on Sept. 1. 2006 of Comcast Digital Voice in all areas of Dauphin, Lebanon, Berks, & Lancaster counties that were not involved in the Beta testing of CDV.

All 6412p1 & 6412p2 STB should have been returned and/ or swapped out by now with the newer equipment.


There's A LOT of 6412p2's still in service out in the SF bay area.

There's A LOT of 6412p2's still in service out in the SF bay area.
Yup.

Hopefully if a new unit is required to run TiVo, Comcast will order enough to swap out the existing units.

Any UPS you use with a STB, or HD equipment needs to have a power conditioning circuit.

This keeps the output Voltage from changing.


I have been battling problems with 3412 boxes for months now. After multiple visits, the idiots at Comcast finally got the signal strength where it should be, and MOST of the pixelation/freezing has gone away. I had read that these boxes were sensitive to voltage fluctuations, so I got a UPS with voltage regulation in addition to battery backup. I thought it would be a good idea to have it on the DLP as well for the cooling fan in case of power failure.

Guess what? As soon as I plugged everything in to the UPS, I started getting dropouts and "no input signal" indications. Obviously, the box doesn't like the UPS, which makes no sense at all.

Any idea what is going on here?

All 6412p1 & 6412p2 STB should have been returned and/ or swapped out by now with the newer equipment.

The 6208, 6412p1, & 6412p2 are all discontinued /\/\oto STB. They use a less advanced CPU. AFAIK only the 64xxp3 & 34xxp1 & 34xxp2 STB will be able to run TiVo, but dont quote me on that. I will ask monday, at work.

Panasonic HD DVR STB are expected for roll out in 1st. Qrtr. 2007.

It will use a OCAP software Guide program. Unknown what, or who as of yet.
That is news to me. Even recently, I read of a few people who still have a 6208, as well as a 6412 p2. AFAIK, they only swap out STBs if they won't run on the system anymore. We are ADS, and the 6412 just doesn't use the Analog tuner, as you know. If someone orders Tivo, they will probably just make sure the tech brings a new DVR, in case a swap out is needed.

A relative of mine got a 3412 p1 earlier this year. Both their and my DVR are working well. The thing is, they don't have HD, so maybe the newer CPU can let the Guide and settings work faster when an HD program is in the window?
But, on the other hand, I frequently see their FF and RW delayed, while mine isn't; go figure, luckily they are rarely used.

I won't bother swapping this DVR out until the Panny is released.
I assume OCAP means it can run Tivo?

All 6412p1 & 6412p2 STB should have been returned and/ or swapped out by now with the newer equipment.


I still have the same 6412 that I was originally issued about 3 years ago. Since it works fine and I haven't had any problems I haven't upgraded yet. I'm sure there are a lot of people who haven't upgraded to the newer hardware if their older hardware is not having problems.

I still have the same 6412 that I was originally issued about 3 years ago. Since it works fine and I haven't had any problems I haven't upgraded yet. I'm sure there are a lot of people who haven't upgraded to the newer hardware if their older hardware is not having problems.

Not to mention all of the DVR users who do not keep up on the STB problems or changes. Comcast does not go out of there way to inform the customers of these changes.

All I was implying is that we do not rent out the 6412p1 or 6412p2 when they come back to the office.

All I was implying is that we do not rent out the 6412p1 or 6412p2 when they come back to the office.

I would be curious to know what Comcast does with them. Do they trade them back in to Motorola for the newer models?

I would be curious to know what Comcast does with them. Do they trade them back in to Motorola for the newer models?

I know Comcast had a big local sale a few years back when we got the 6408 in, they sold off most of the older models of 2xxx, 5xxx STB.....

P-I-I-D-I-I-D-I-I-D-I-I-P-I-I-D.... where P is a full frame of data information, D is a 'Difference Frame' (the changes between the previous full frame or reconstructed difference frame), and I are interpolated frames based on the previous full/reconstructed frame and the next full/reconstructed frame. Note that P frames come either every 12th or 15th frame.

I have never seen this terminology. In MPEG, the full frames are "I-frames", I standing for "intra frame", using compression using only data from within one frame. "P-frames" are "forward predictive", what you refer to as the "difference frames". "B-frames" are "bidirectional predictive", your so called "I-frames". Interpolation means something different to me.

So sequence of video frames might be something like IBBPBBPBBI, but the Is & Ps have to be transmitted before the Bs that use them so might be sent in order IPBBPBBIBB.

In my cable DVB world PID stands for program ID.

TiVo/Cox Deal: Is It Enough?
Posted by Alan Breznick
Posted on Aug 25 2006




Seeking to jumpstart its sputtering growth, TiVo Inc. struck a deal with Cox Communications to plug TiVo's digital video recorders (DVRs) to a big chunk of the MSO's more than 2.4 million digital cable customers.

The agreement with Cox, now the fourth largest MSO in the U.S. with 5.4 million basic cable subscribers, is the second pact that TiVo has signed with a major cable operator in the past year and a half. The DVR maker, which has been scrambling to find cable and telco marketing partners since it lost its exclusive pact with DirecTV last year, signed a similar deployment deal with Comcast in March 2005. TiVo also notched a DVR-DSL co-marketing agreement with BellSouth about a month ago.

Industry analysts applaud TiVo's new cable strategy. But some question whether the Comcast and Cox deals will really provide that much of a revenue boost for TiVo. In a fresh dispatch from Wall Street, for instance, Friedman, Billings, Ramsey & Co. analyst Brian Coyne argues that the Cox pact will generate no more than $3 million in additional annual revenue for TiVo by 2009.

"While we recognize the positive aspects of this deal, as it helps ensure the longer-term survival of TiVo's software, we have difficulty seeing how this agreement results in a meaningful new growth opportunity for the company," Coyne writes in a note to investors. Even if all major U.S. MSOs struck similar deals with TiVo, he posits, it would produce no more than $35 million to $40 million in annual revenue for the firm by 2009, or less than 20 percent of TiVo's projected 2007 sales of $240 million.

With the Cox deal, TiVo says it will customize its cable software for deployment on the MSO's compatible DVR-enabled digital set-top boxes, just as it's now doing for Comcast. Using its downloadable software, TiVo says it will enable Cox to deliver the tech firm's service without replacing existing DVR boxes or making costly, time-consuming installation "truck rolls" to subscribers' homes.

The agreement also calls for Cox to distribute TiVo's interactive advertising service to digital cable subscribers, extending the firm's national ad footprint. TiVo, which will report its second-quarter earnings next week, closed out its fiscal first quarter with slightly more than 4.4 million subscribers, including nearly 2.9 million customers that it gained through its former alliance with DirecTV.

Cox intends to start rolling out the TiVo technology and ad service to digital customers in the first half of next year, several months after Comcast begins introducing the same TiVo offerings to a large portion of its 10.5 million digital video customers. Like Comcast, Cox will start offering the service in the markets where it uses Motorola digital set-tops because those boxes are already prepped for the TiVo service.

David Grabert, a spokesman for Cox, says the MSO will likely charge its DVR subscribers an extra $3 to $5 a month for the TiVo service. Currently, Cox DVR customers pay $9.95 a month for their service on top of their digital cable bills.

"We'll continue to offer our DVR service," says Grabert, who declined to disclose the MSO's number of DVR subscribers. TiVo, he adds, "will be a premium or add-on service."

Financial terms of the Cox deal were not disclosed. But industry analysts estimate that TiVo will make about $1 per cable subscriber each month, with Cox keeping the rest of the proceeds.

There's no question that TiVo could use the jumpstart. In its most recent earnings release, issued in late May, the company reported that it netted just 53,000 new subscribers in the first quarter ended April 30. That's down from 319,000 in the year-ago period, when the firm still enjoyed its exclusive marketing arrangement with DirecTV. Its share price was recently $7.49, well off its 52-week high of $9.49.

Even apart from DirecTV, TiVo's net subscriber additions for its standalone service plunged from 72,000 in early 2005 to 51,000 in early 2006. But, in its earnings release, the company sought to spin this by noting that, even though its growth rate declined again from the comparable period a year ago, that rate of decline has eased over the past three quarters.

Faced with this slowing growth, TiVo's losses have been mounting. The company racked up a net loss of $10.7 million on $56.5 million in revenue during the first quarter, a deterioration from its loss of $857,000 on $46.9 million in revenue a year earlier. TiVo, which recently concluded a successful patent battle with DirecTV rival EchoStar Communications, blamed the higher loss on litigation expenses, more aggressive price offerings, and the expensing of stock options.

-- Alan Breznick, Site Editor, Cable Digital News
http://blog.cabledigitalnews.com/index.php?id=531