Benen a long time since my post. Nobody know why it keeps saying it is repairing? And no way to go HDD to HDD?

Thanks

Benen a long time since my post. Nobody know why it keeps saying it is repairing? And no way to go HDD to HDD?

Thanks

I've gotten that "Hard drive repair is complete" message too. I get it once in a great while, when I turn the unit on. I have no idea why.

I'm not clear on why one would want to go "HDD to HDD," but you can do that, in effect, by transferring the HDD program to a VR mode disc, which can be transferred back to the HDD at high speed, so you will then have two copies on your HDD. But, if you are wanting to change the recording 'speed,' one transfer will have to be done in realtime, otherwise, you can transfer at high speed, without affecting PQ. I use -RW VR mode discs as an option to the HDD, for storing things I don't want to burn to -R Video Mode DVD yet, usually because I am waiting for other elements I want on the finished DVD.

Thanks. That's what I figured. i indeed just wanted to change the speed. So I guess I am going to ahve to do that becuase as it is I have tv shows in XP for about 26 shows and that would be WAY too annoying to only have 2-3 on each dvd and equally annoying having it take up too much space on the HDD.

I do have a few -rw discs and they are all full too. lol I need to go through those and get rid of whatever I have on them.

Benen a long time since my post. Nobody know why it keeps saying it is repairing? And no way to go HDD to HDD?


I don't post here often, Basher, but I'll take a stab at them.

Does the recorder say it's repairing the HDD every time you turn it on, or did this only happen a couple of times? I tend to find the 640 repairs the hard drive after an unusual shut down, either because of a power outage, or a forced shutdown made by holding in the power button on the front of the unit for a few seconds. I've had to do that a couple of times when the unit has locked up on me. If the unit is doing that often, and you're not doing anything unusual, like unplugging it from the power outlet, it sounds like a serious problem - one you're unlikely to be able to fix yourself.

As to the HDD to HDD copy, I'm pretty sure there's no way to do that, other than hooking up one of the line outputs to one of the line inputs. You'd have to start the recording, and then manually start your playback, then edit out the recording of the file navigation you did to start playing. You'd also lose any program titles or thumbnails you entered. I wouldn't really recommend that method. Personally, I would just do a high-speed copy to a rewritable DVD, and then do a copy back to the HDD at the desired speed. Copying though the line outputs/inputs usually involves conversion to analog and back to digital, so the results probably wouldn't be as good, quality-wise, as a DVD to HDD copy which would be entirely digital. Of course, you're gonna lose a lot of quality, anyway, so it's up to you.

Benen a long time since my post. Nobody know why it keeps saying it is repairing?
Thanks

"repair" means "defrag".

Mine has been saying that for weeks, as well. I think it is because I run close to 99% full, and even though I free some space up, I haven't removed the shows that are severely fragmented. I have faith that once I get sufficient shows burned to DVD and deleted, the repair process will work its magic.

Thanks everyone.

And yeah I have mine almost totally full also even though it is not recommended.

It's to the poitnwhere I ahve to keep finding shows to delete to fit new oens on it as I try to get others ready to burn off.

You know that firmware fix that allows titles to go through for timer recordings? Well I just noticed on an episode of King Of Queens it not only had the name, but the episode code number! I sure wish ALL of my episodes of that show had them there becuase I have to keep playing the shows and fiuring out by looking at episode guides what to title them and to get them in a proper order. That is why it's taking forever to burn them off.

Actually I think when it has an auto title, it probably isn't that firmware fix... I think that's only for manually entered titles to pass throguh.

Get yourself some -RWs, and dump a lot of stuff onto them in VR mode. If you want to burn them later, just do a high-speed transfer back to the HDD, then burn them to -R in Video mode, again at high-speed. I do that all the time. That is a MUCH better strategy, because you are risking HDD problems, and might lose what you have stored, or screw your HDD and need repairs. Just do it! Life will be easier, and you can reuse the -RWs later, after you've disposed of what is on them. :D

Just adding my agreement: go NOW and buy some RW discs (or RAM discs) and back up those shows! Get em off the hard drive asap! Seriously, you don't want any DVD/HDD recorder to get more than 80% full or you are risking a meltdown. The machine needs headroom for its housekeeping chores and to allow editing. I ended up having to buy two seasons of "The Office" because I got lazy and let the episodes choke my machine for a year: the HDD tanked from being too full and I lost the recordings AND had to replace the drive.

You should probably make an effort to get all the episodes titled quickly, and do a straight high-speed backup to DVD-R discs, even if fitting just 3 episodes to a disc in XP mode annoys you no end. This one time, make an exception and tolerate a few extra discs: there is no way really to re-encode those shows from XP without taking a quality hit (not to mention hours and hours of real-time copying from HDD to DVD- yuck!) It doesn't seem worth it just to save a tiny amount of shelf space?

Thanks. Well I got them numbered, so I can tell what order to unload them in. Hopefully it will last another 24 hours and then I should be fine. I can go ahead and unload 55 of the 88 titles, but I need to be editing them as I do it. So basically it would probably just take me a few hours to unload that many.

By the way it's so cool about the title having the "production code #". An episode is on right now on a local channel and it correctly says on the dvd recorder that its code is #613. If only it always did that I could then quickly find the episodes on the episode guide, but it seems to only do it for the ones on overnight on the local channel. On tbs it doesn't show it.

Normally I would just buy the professional dvds, but I want some use out of this recorder where I didn't waste my money. lol

Since you want to change the recording speed on some things, just dump the XP stuff on -RW discs now. When you want to watch them, you can rerecord them to the HDD in SP, as you watch. The quality should still be pretty fair, just slightly less PQ than if they had been recorded in SP to begin with. Or, if you are saving shows that are one hour long, with commercials, usually three edited shows will fit nicely on a disc at MN20, and not really be discernible from SP. That's what I do with Doctor Who.

The auto-title function for recordings is some kind of voodoo and varies from machine to machine and channel to channel. The actual specifics of the title is under the control of the broadcaster. But the process of pulling it out of the signal and titling the recordings is up to the machine, and they follow all kinds of patterns, some totally random. Most recorders I've used generally *won't* pick up the title info if the recording is made in timer mode: almost always, they only pick up title info if I manually hit the record button "live", so to speak. To add more confusion, broadcasters are often not quite on the beat, so your "Seinfeld" recording at 7:30PM might be auto-titled "Sex and the City" because that show's title signal continues to be broadcast five minutes into "Seinfeld".

Like many things in life, you wonder why they supply these conveniences at all if they can't be bothered to stick to a standard procedure that would make them actually *work* more often than not.

I noticed even though I used the display button when recording yesterday and it showed the #, it didn't record that info since I was recording by pressing record instead of a timer recording. So that is another weird thing about it... it had the info right there while I was watching it and didn't transfer it.

As far as those XP programs, by the way, that is a small percentage of what I have on the hard drive. Most everything I am trying to unload today will already be in the right mode for me to high speed copy.

Good idea though about moving them to the dvd -rw. I need to go through the -rw discs I do have and unload those or delete them too though. I ahve them all full also. lol I only own 5 -rw discs.

See none of this would be necessary, but I get too lazy to burn things off when I should. What I should be doing is after each SHOW, go ahead and edit it THEN and that way everything is always ready and it only would be taking a few minutes per day.

BASHER, have you updated you 640's FW to V6.20, which adds the title capture and transfer capability?

If not, go to this webpage (http://www.pioneerfaq.info/index.php?question=Firmwares) and scroll down to the RED Canada/US FW entry... PAST the plain text 640H. The entry will look like this:

Canada/US

DVR-540/543H/640H

Firmware 6.20* ONLY Region 1 US/Canadian version ONLY
Instructions in the file! Install it on your own risk! The *.MEM file must be the only one on the CD-RW
MD5
SR06A620.MEM = D61F4412AEBEBA9F27C623D9BFE71C2E
Pioneer_DRV-543-640_V620.zip = 2A6DEA1B29120A478BE926E337228BA9

Download the "Firmware 6.20* and follow the instructions on the Data CD you are instructed to make. Expand the zip files by moving them to a folder on your hard drive after downloading... that expands them automatically. The expanded .MEM file should be "SR06A620.MEM....12,482 KB....MEM File"

There'll also be a 1 K txt file of instructions.

Yes I did already do that. Assuming it's the only firmware update for this model. Sounds like the same one from the description. I think, though, that it's to fix titles not transferring over via timer recordings. When I do timer recordings it does work properly. It's just wne I press record on the spur of the moment it doesn't seem to capture the actual title being broadcast.

When I do timer recordings it does work properly. It's just wne I press record on the spur of the moment it doesn't seem to capture the actual title being broadcast.

Wow! That's really interesting, because its the opposite experience from what I've had with most Pioneers, 640 and otherwise. I never bothered with the firmware update on my own 640, I figured I always do my own custom titling anyway. 90% of my recordings are via timer, and of course not being updated my 640 doesn't pick up the auto-titles in timer mode. However it DOES pick them up whenever I just hit record while the unit is on.

Since you are having the exact opposite experience, maybe all the firmware upgrade does is reverse the 640s titling pickup from "live" to "timer"? One of these days I'll try the firmware upgrade and check for myself. Thanks for posting your experiences!

As described (eventually) in the 640 firmware update thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727506), the old firmware did always capture broadcast title names when recording manually, (if available,) but didn't for timer recordings. The 6.20 firmware resolved that, as well as forwarding preset timer event title names to the resultant recordings, but I don't think the functionality changed for manual recordings. If you're not getting title names for manual recordings, it may be that:
a) there wasn't a title broadcast in the first place, or
b) you're pressing record just before the program starts and your thumbnail setting is too low. (Initial Setup...Recording...Set Thumbnail) You should use the "3 minutes" thumbnail setting to maximize your chances of getting the correct title if available, and then of course make sure your recording doesn't start more than 3 minutes before the program starts.

BTW Citibear, I completely agree with you about not filling up the HDD too much. I have two 640s and despite a lot of use, I have never seen the "hard drive repair complete" message and neither 640 has ever locked up or failed in any way. (I've never even had a coaster, but that may also be attributed to always using Verbatim media.) I believe it's mostly because I am diligent about keeping my HDDs no more than half full and emptying them completely at least once per year during rerun season to ensure they don't become too fragmented.

I did the f/w update not long after it became generally available (not dependent on dealing with a service center), I do nearly all my recording via timer, and I find that I probably capture the title something like 75% of the time. This is with Time Warner digital cable, and one of their most recent boxes. With a much older cable box in another room, that figure might drop to 60 %. (Sometimes the desired info just isn't being broadcast.) Both cable boxes are Motorola models, but there are clear differences -- chief among them being that the recent model "sees" at least 3x further ahead in its program schedule guide, whereas the older one craps out with nothing but "To Be Announced" for anything more than three or four days out from the present time. On-board memory ?

But I think it mostly comes down to the channel and the service provider. Even with just this service provider, I could probably identify some channels that are much more likely to give you zilch.

OT, but problem with my Panasonic digital DVDR with auto titling is that it gets the PCIP title info the second it starts recording. Many times TV stations are 30 seconds or so behind when they change the PCIP title from the previous show to the current one. I'd say 50% of the time the title is the actual show before the one I am recording and that's with setting the exact start time. If you program it to start a minute or two early then 100% of the time it's the previous shows title. Personally I think it would have been best to get the title info a few minutes into the program instead of the instant it starts. Oh well, better than nothing.

If you program it to start a minute or two early then 100% of the time it's the previous shows title.There seems to be a general belief that the Pioneer 640 picks up the title at the same time it picks up the thumbnail, so that if you set the recorder to use a thumbnail 3 minutes into the show then you're much more likely to get the correct title on the recording.

I don't know if I've ever seen a post by anyone who claimed they did an actual test to confirm this, though.

Oh so on the Pio's you can actually set the time when the thumbnail is set? That would be nice. On Pannys the thumbnail is automatically set at 1:05 min(no way to change it) but from my testing the auto-title is set the instant it starts recording(or within a few seconds). I would be happy with 1:05 min. That would tend to get the correct title a lot more if I had the program start exactly on time, like I usually do. I guess each brand has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

I'm not sure what happened...
I remembered that before I turned off my machine this morning, it had 15 hrs free space. Now, all of a sudden the available space is 0hr and I cannot record anything because it keeps saying that the Hard Disc is full. I tried to delete some recordings, but it still remains "spaceless".

any solutions guys?

Well, you could dump everything on -RW discs, then delete everything, then reformat. If that doesn't work, it's repair shop time.

Well, you could dump everything on -RW discs, then delete everything, then reformat. If that doesn't work, it's repair shop time.

Do you mean initialize the HDD when it fails?

Interesting idea about the thumbnail. I did notice on timer recordings it was picking up the title from the previous show.

But anyway yes it was receiving the title, becuase I pressed display and saw the name of it right there and then it was not transferred into the title.

Byt he way IS THERE NO WAY to frame forward or backward??? On my old pioneer I would press pause and there was a button to press to go one frame back or forward to try my best to get it where I want the chapter mark. Now there seems to be no way to do that. It seems you have to pause it and then either fast forward or rewind to change where it is paused.

It's driving me nuts. Another reason I say Puineer went in reverse in MNAY ways with this recorder. Not having a chapter mark button is bad enough, but to make it where you can't evenb mark it in edit mode right where you want???

Also why is erase segment even there when you can chapter mark it and do it that way?

It's really nanoying how much harder it is to edit with this than older pioneer dvd recorders.

Oh and as for my other issue with bars on all four sides, even changing cable box mode doesn't effect the picture through the recorder whatsoever!

What a great setup this all is. Bars on all four sides in the dvd recorder. My denon dvd player stretched ALL content since it's using an hdmi cable so I can't have 4:3 look proper in that. Sound id not matched with picture through my cable box. The list goes on and on as to why things look even worse than if I never had got an HDTV. Unless I am truly watching a HD channel. Of course even then it still has the audio issue.

Byt he way IS THERE NO WAY to frame forward or backward??? On my old pioneer I would press pause and there was a button to press to go one frame back or forward to try my best to get it where I want the chapter mark. Now there seems to be no way to do that. It seems you have to pause it and then either fast forward or rewind to change where it is paused.On the new 640 remote you have to press pause, then use the FF/REW to step frame-by-frame - is that what you're talking about?

I actually use my 633 remote with my 640 because it has a lot more dedicated buttons (like the frame forward/reverse buttons) and doesn't use that silly sliding door.


Also why is erase segment even there when you can chapter mark it and do it that way?I always use erase segment. It seems like extra steps to me to have to mark the start and end of each chapter, and then go and delete it. In erase segment you simply select the start and end points, then you get to watch the preview of what the edited result would be and simply choose "yes" to delete it.

Well the ff and rew buttons aren't going frame by frame for me. Not in chapter edit mode.

Thanks, I will probably start doing it the way you do now. I have used that mode before, but I just got used to doing it in chapter edit mode. Although if I do it the way you do then it will probably not divide into chapters at the delete points will it?

edit: It doesn't go frame by frame in erase section either. I do need to buy that controller though. I meant to long ago.

I have used that mode before, but I just got used to doing it in chapter edit mode. Although if I do it the way you do then it will probably not divide into chapters at the delete points will it?You end up with a chapter mark at each point where you deleted something.

It doesn't go frame by frame in erase section either. I do need to buy that controller though. I meant to long ago.
It goes frame-by-frame on my Pioneer 640, if I hit the FF or REW buttons when the title is paused (ie, press PAUSE first, then press FF or REW).

Don't forget that if you're using "Video Mode Compatible Editing" you can't step just a single frame - the machine will automatically go forward or backward to the next GOP point in the video stream (every 15 frames). That's true no matter which remote you use.

Do you mean initialize the HDD when it fails?

Actually, I meant before it fails. I don't have my manual with me, and haven't read that part in a while, but, IIRC, there are two HDD processes you can initiate, one that defrags the HDD, and another that wipes it clean, and starts over. The latter should cure any problems that are curable, w/o a trip to the repair shop. But, you would lose all recordings. That's why I said to dump them on -RW discs, recorded in VR mode, so you can save your recordings, and put them back on the HDD at high speed, if you wish, after you have set the HDD right.

Sean and Basher, on the 640, when editing in Video mode, you cannot go frame by frame, it forces to key frames, i.e. every 15th frame. If you edit in VR mode - "frame accurate" you can do it frame by frame, but the edit points will move if you burn a video mode disc. Also, even in Video mode, the "Set Thumbnail" will let you go frame by frame.

Actually, I meant before it fails. I don't have my manual with me, and haven't read that part in a while, but, IIRC, there are two HDD processes you can initiate, one that defrags the HDD, and another that wipes it clean, and starts over. The latter should cure any problems that are curable, w/o a trip to the repair shop. But, you would lose all recordings. That's why I said to dump them on -RW discs, recorded in VR mode, so you can save your recordings, and put them back on the HDD at high speed, if you wish, after you have set the HDD right.
The function that wipes the HDD clean, Intialize HDD, is only available in the Disc Setup menu when the machine says it needs it... can't choose if yourself when you want.

The "defrag" is Optimize HDD in the Disc Setup menu and that's available most any time for cleaning up existing files and eliminating file fragmentation.

Hmmm... I didn't know you could only initialize when the machine wanted you to. I thought I remembered people on this thread, many moons ago... saying they had opted to do it, just to see what happened.

Might have been the Optimize... esp. since Pio chose not to use the more familiar defrag?

The function that wipes the HDD clean, Intialize HDD, is only available in the Disc Setup menu when the machine says it needs it... can't choose if yourself when you want.

The "defrag" is Optimize HDD in the Disc Setup menu and that's available most any time for cleaning up existing files and eliminating file fragmentation.

I was reading the manual, which says on page 105 that "When your DVD recorder is working without a problem this solution (Initialize HDD) is not visible in the Disc Setup Menu."

Might have been the Optimize... esp. since Pio chose not to use the more familiar defrag?

I did "optimize" the HDD several times, but it still remains "spaceless" as it was.

Then it looks to me like your only option is to delete everything in your HDD, and see if that solves the problem. If not, you'll have to take it in for repair.

I did "optimize" the HDD several times, but it still remains "spaceless" as it was.
Optimizing (defragmenting) only works if there is some space on the HDD to move files so they become more contiguous (closer together). If your HDD is really full, there's no open space to move files to, so defrag can't really happen.

As kjbawc said, you'll really have to remove some titles before you can even start defragging.

thx alot for your suggestions...

I also own a 650 and a 520, and if I wanna connect either one with my troubled 640 together in order to transfer some of my recordings in realtime (with some other recordings being offloaded to DVD-RWs on the 640), is it possible for me to control two recorders (Which I connect together) using different remote controls? Since all 3 remote controls are interchangeable, can I set up any codes for those two remote controls so that each of my remotes ONLY control their own recorders?

The 640 has three codes you can use, 1, 2 or 3... 1 is the default. Instructions are in manual pg 117. Have to assume the other Pios have a similar code function with their remotes.

You first go into the 640's Options > Remote Control Mode menu and select one of the codes for the recorder (1, 2 or 3). Then, on the remote, press and HOLD the RETURN button plus the same number button as you set in the recorder. You have to HOLD the remote buttons for ~5 sec or so until the display on the unit changes. That indicates the code has "taken" and the recorder and remote are in sync.

The 640 has three codes you can use, 1, 2 or 3... 1 is the default. Instructions are in manual pg 117. Have to assume the other Pios have a similar code function with their remotes.

You first go into the 640's Options > Remote Control Mode menu and select one of the codes for the recorder (1, 2 or 3). Then, on the remote, press and HOLD the RETURN button plus the same number button as you set in the recorder. You have to HOLD the remote buttons for ~5 sec or so until the display on the unit changes. That indicates the code has "taken" and the recorder and remote are in sync.

Thx again wajo:)

Well I wondered if me editing in video mode was the problem too, but it has that message stating that you need to do it in video mode to be more compatible with high speed dubs.

I always thought the only problem with frame by frame in high speed is it may be off a tiny bit. But it would surely be better than this! I am always 5-10 frames off this way, I bet. So is there another reason not to use the VR mode editing?

Sucks that most everything I have recorded on this is now having slight commercial frames.

Oh I forgot to mention... when using erase section it gives a false preview. Or at least it did on the example I tried yesterday. The preview kept showing a segment after the section that was going to be deleted.

Re "BASHERS33" having issues in his Pioneer 640 editing and chapter screens, I can confirm that this particular model varies machine to machine on this point. I have not seen this addressed by anyone else until now, so I thought I had just seen some rare mutations or something, but BASHERS33 now confirms what I've seen myself: some of the 2006-series 540-543-640 recorders have operational glitches in their editing modes. I too have been frustrated by certain 540 and 640 units NOT ALLOWING a frame-by-frame step or slow-mo movement when trying to set an edit, thumbnail or chapter point. Pushing the still-step buttons on the remote result in no response, you have to use the speed search buttons and even then it may not work. Doesn't seem to matter whether I use the current white remote or the older more convenient remote. This is unrelated to VR/Video mode: all my recorders have always been set to "Video" mode at all times, and I'm not referring to the normal 15 frame skip required in video mode editing. I'm stating what BASHERS33 stated: in any of the edit screens, some Pioneer 540-543-640 units simply will not respond to the still-step or slow command. And it can be very annoying when they don't.

Apart from that, one thing to remember about *any* DVD recorders "frame accurate" or VR mode is that by nature its an unofficial kludge. Before DVD recorders with built in HDD became more common-affordable (relatively speaking), the mfrs had to provide SOME way to edit and work on content recorded direct to DVD that would seem familiar to VCR users, so the "bastardized" VR formats were created.

These do work by and large but they ARE kludges, make no mistake. The goal of DVD recording is to make a standard DVD than can be archived (as long as it might last) and be compatible with the DVD Video standard. Problem there is the DVD Video standard is pretty inflexible, essentially requiring an unbroken continuous recording stream with no edits on the actual DVD media. You can usually get away with multi-session finalized DVDs but even then some people report playback problems. The ideal way to create the "perfect" DVD on a DVD recorder is to use one with an HDD, set it to "Video" mode, and do all editing/basic authoring on the HDD. Then high-speed copy the recording (or set of recordings) to DVD media in one continuous burst.

The "frame accuracy" and other goodies of VR mode will only apply if you keep the resulting DVD in "VR" mode as well, and generally such discs will play best on the recorder that made them. Normal standard DVD Video cannot accommodate "frame accurate" editing, as others have posted the closest you can get is within a half second or 15 frames, because the DVD standard signal can only be cut on the key frames. Otherwise the signal would have to be transcoded, which would involve a quality hit. The best place to do full-bore frame accurate editing would be on a PC with a good encoding board and software that can handle transcoding chores with more finesse than a DVD recorder is capable of. When you really need to cut to frame, import your DVD into PC software.

But for simple commercial removal from braodcast TV shows, editing to the half-second in Video mode works well enough- I almost always manage to find a black key frame to cut on, and when I don't the split-second flash of leftover commercial is nearly unnoticeable. As long as I stay within Video Mode on both the hard drive and the burner, my recordings high-speed copy to DVD media with no shifts in edit points or chapter marks. One has to put things in context: its a minor miracle that we CAN cut the ads out and not lose any quality! In the VCR days, cutting ads out of a timer recording required a laborious real-time copy to a 2nd generation tape, with a lost quality penalty. DVD recorders are amazing devices.

Re "BASHERS33" having issues in his Pioneer 640 editing and chapter screens, I can confirm that this particular model varies machine to machine on this point. I have not seen this addressed by anyone else until now,

Then I'm glad I haven't seen this on the 640 myself.

The "frame accuracy" and other goodies of VR mode will only apply if you keep the resulting DVD in "VR" mode as well, and generally such discs will play best on the recorder that made them. Normal standard DVD Video cannot accommodate "frame accurate" editing, as others have posted the closest you can get is within a half second or 15 frames, because the DVD standard signal can only be cut on the key frames. Otherwise the signal would have to be transcoded, which would involve a quality hit. The best place to do full-bore frame accurate editing would be on a PC with a good encoding board and software that can handle transcoding chores with more finesse than a DVD recorder is capable of. When you really need to cut to frame, import your DVD into PC software.

But for simple commercial removal from braodcast TV shows, editing to the half-second in Video mode works well enough- I almost always manage to find a black key frame to cut on, and when I don't the split-second flash of leftover commercial is nearly unnoticeable. As long as I stay within Video Mode on both the hard drive and the burner, my recordings high-speed copy to DVD media with no shifts in edit points or chapter marks. . . . DVD recorders are amazing devices.

That they are. My default has generally been to use Frame Accurate editing mode. I have not really run into any problems from doing that, including compatibility with the standalone players the discs may wind up in, or shifting edit-points. The frame accuracy works out great, unless I happen to mess up during the editing, because of a distraction or something. (Beware phone calls, and trying to multi-task -- not just when behind the wheel.) It is usually not too difficult to find places to do the cuts. Even in a continuous film, you can often find a long shot of someone walking or driving somewhere, with no dialog, when you need it. (Even better, if a night scene.) With programs, going into or coming out of commercial, it is getting more difficult though, as they keep tightening up the short duration of the "black frame" transition space, no doubt in an effort to defeat commercials-haters like us.

Normal standard DVD Video cannot accommodate "frame accurate" editing, as others have posted the closest you can get is within a half second or 15 frames, because the DVD standard signal can only be cut on the key frames.

Well, actually, it would be more accurate to say that the furthest away you CAN be from the frame you want is 7 frames, or a quarter of a second.

The black frames between commercials/program segments are getting shorter, even disappearing. I hate having a couple of frames of commercial between program segments, so I sometimes settle for missing a few frames of program, if no important content is lost.

The 640 editing oddity I haven't seen mentioned here lately is something you will notice after editing in Video mode, and when you click on a HDD entry to copy in Video mode. Sometimes you will get a message saying edit points may change slightly, sometimes you don't. I see two possible reasons for this. One, perhaps "Video Mode" editing doesn't reliably hit a key frame. Or, perhaps even when you enter a thumbnail on a 0 or a 15 frame, you are not necessarily getting a key frame. I think it is the latter. I have noticed that when selecting a thumbnail frame, sometimes the supposed key frame is blurred. Then, I move a bit to a sharp frame, and select that for a thumbnail. When I do that, I seem to be less likely to get the 'may shift' message.

The 640 editing oddity I haven't seen mentioned here lately is something you will notice after editing in Video mode, and when you click on a HDD entry to copy in Video mode. Sometimes you will get a message saying edit points may change slightly, sometimes you don't. I see two possible reasons for this. One, perhaps "Video Mode" editing doesn't reliably hit a key frame.
Bingo!

I did some tests on my 640 and found the 15-frame counter is just a counter... it doesn't "seek" or reliably find key frames at all. I recorded several segments and cut various "odd" number of frames from the very front of those recordings to see if the frame counter went to 14, 13, 12, etc. depending on how many frames I cut ("seeking" and finding the next key frame at the OLD 15-frame point), and each time the COUNTER counted 15 frames.

Bingo!

I did some tests on my 640 and found the 15-frame counter is just a counter... it doesn't "seek" or reliably find key frames at all. I recorded several segments and cut various "odd" number of frames from the very front of those recordings to see if the frame counter went to 14, 13, 12, etc. depending on how many frames I cut ("seeking" and finding the next key frame at the OLD 15-frame point), and each time the COUNTER counted 15 frames.

I think there must be a bit more to it than that. If it only picks random frames all the time, only one in 15 of your HDD recordings, with only one edit should come up without the 'may move' message. But, even though I do several edits, often many for programs with commercials, the amount of 'may move' messages I get is just slightly over half. So, maybe it tries, but often misses?

You like to experiment... try several recordings, with different amounts of edits. There should be a statistical difference in the number that have the 'may move' message, depending on the number of edits, that might help determine what is really happening... :D

citibear, for me personally it's so difficult to get it marked even close to where I want. There isn't much of a break between show and commercials for the shows I am recording and I have to press pause, it then keeps moving forward, if it's too far I have to go back and try to stop it at the right place yet again since I can't move frame by frame!

Byt he way nobody has commented on the fact that in erase section the rpeview is not even correct. I've noticed it before also, not just this time. The preview is showing something NOT in the section to be erased.

Byt he way nobody has commented on the fact that in erase section the rpeview is not even correct. I've noticed it before also, not just this time. The preview is showing something NOT in the section to be erased.I wonder if what you're seeing is even vs. odd fields for a frame. There are 30 frames per second, and each one is made of an odd field that scans half the lines and an even field that scans the other half.

When you play a title and use the "pause" button, you see one set of fields (lets say they're the even ones) when you move forward frame-by-frame, and the other set (the odd ones) when you move backward frame-by-frame. With most material there's not much difference between them but at scene changes it can make the difference between one scene and the next.

So if you're editing and the GOP point falls on a scene change, you may or may not see a particular scene depending on which way you've been stepping through the title.

IIRC there's a setup option that can change this behaviour.

I went through the settings yesterday and didn't notice anything related to it. Unless Ijust overlooked it.

Frame by frame does nothing for me, so I simply paused it, pressed the prev button to be sure it would go to the exact beginning of the title, selected that for the start point, pressed play, then paused it as close as I could to the end point and selected that for the end point. The preview which played was then what actually "started" after the end point. So in other words the preview was useless and I was taking a chance by even deleting it in case the preview was truly correct.

Byt he way nobody has commented on the fact that in erase section the rpeview is not even correct. I've noticed it before also, not just this time. The preview is showing something NOT in the section to be erased.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "preview" in the >erase section mode<. I don't have to hit a button for a preview, the section that is highlighted to be deleted starts to play, from the first frame of the section to be deleted, all the way to the last frame, if you let it keep playing. This has always been accurate for me.

Delete "erase section mode" above, and insert "Chapter edit mode." Sorry for my mistake.

I wonder if using a cable company DVR would changeanything as far as being able to smehow get the final result on disc to be formatted properly rather than the stupid black bars in each direction.

I read CitiBear's post in another thread and I really hadn't even thought about the fact that the cable company DVR could have HD content look better than it would on any dvd recorder's hard drive. I assumed neither would have it look ok.

It's funny though just how much everyone changes their tune here. Back when I was first looking for a recorder people "insisted" that I get one with a HDD and now they say it doesn't matter and people should use the cable co. dvr. If that works as well and has edit features then I might as well have saved me hundreds and got the better PQ recorder (most likely always Sony) and then be set to go.

Guess how much time is left on my HDD again? A whole 1 hour and 23 minutes in mn22 mode. I ahve GOT to get this stuff off of there, but it is stressful and gives me a headache going through there editing everything. I guess I have to do some more later todaY.

It's funny though just how much everyone changes their tune here. Back when I was first looking for a recorder people "insisted" that I get one with a HDD and now they say it doesn't matter and people should use the cable co. dvr. If that works as well and has edit features then I might as well have saved me hundreds and got the better PQ recorder (most likely always Sony) and then be set to go.It's not really changing one's tune but rather adapting to the different environments and changing needs. A recorder with a HDD is still the most versatile in all respects. The downside now is that they only record in SD. As more people acquire HD-TV's and get used to watching HD, they want to at least time-shift in HD. You can't do that with a DVD recorder, only a cable/sat DVR (or the forthcoming TR-50 for OTA). A DVD recorder attached to a DVR would now seem to be the best of both worlds. That's the path I'll go down when the TR-50 is released.

The advice most of us automatically give each other, that a DVD/HDD recorder is the best most flexible option for most of the hobbyists on this forum, still holds true. You have to be careful and note the context when I or others discuss the cable/sat DVRs. Most always, we are lamenting how their ease of use for the "vast unwashed" has killed off the MORE USEFUL dvd/hdd recorders, *just* at the point where Panasonic, Pioneer, etc had really evolved them to be as good as they could possibly be. The cable/sat DVRs do NOT have any editing features at all, they don't let you offload to removable media, and since you don't "own" them you cannot modify them in any way. So obviously they will not do for us archive/library oriented types.

It is difficult to discuss the cable/sat box phenomenon without sounding like an elitest ass- but the plain fact is most people are lazy bastards, and no matter how high tech or mentally demanding their jobs or education it seems that the minute Joe or Jane Average Consumer gets home from work they park their brains in the mailbox and flatly refuse to make the slightest effort to operate anything more complicated than a toaster. (Unless they want to hit MySpace or net porn- for that, they'll pull their hair out and run their home PCs).

There is some weird mass psychosis dating back to the introduction of the VCR in 1976: its a kind of genetic aversion in 90% of the populace that gives them hives the minute they have to operate a clock attached to an AV device. Doesn't matter if their career is brain surgeon, architect or chemist: they see a recorder that requires 10 seconds of clear thought to operate, and they are gripped by paralyzing nausea. This is why the cable/sat box took off like a shot: an infant can operate it. Turn on the TV, see the name of the show you want to time shift, click the name of the show, DONE. Thats it. The box is a one-trick pony, but its trick is the one most people want most of the time. They might miss the ability to save or share some programs on DVD now and then, but they would not trade that one-click timeshift for all the tea in China.

This is the mass market, at least as it has evolved in the US. Much as we videoholics might loathe the domino effect of the cable/sat DVR, we can't dismiss it, and in good conscience must recommend it to the average timeshifter as the simplest, most reliable, most cost-effective solution. Much as we might love the flexibility of DVD/HDD recorders, even the best of them are a pain to operate and god help you if you have cable and need to set two different timers for every program you want to record. We force ourselves to deal with these units because we are *motivated*, we WANT that shiny disc we can put away on a shelf and watch at our convenience. Most people do not have that hoarding instinct: they want to timeshift it, watch it once or twice, and then let the box auto-erase it.

citibear, for me personally it's so difficult to get it marked even close to where I want. There isn't much of a break between show and commercials for the shows I am recording and I have to press pause, it then keeps moving forward, if it's too far I have to go back and try to stop it at the right place yet again since I can't move frame by frame!

By the way nobody has commented on the fact that in erase section the preview is not even correct. I've noticed it before also, not just this time. The preview is showing something NOT in the section to be erased.

Despite the slow-mo and step-frame glitches we both agree on, in my experience once I do find my start and end spots, my erased sections in Video mode are pretty accurate and transfer with no issue from hard drive to DVD-R. When I'm in the "erase section" screen, it always shows an accurate preview. I think the task you were specifically describing was trimming the very beginning of a program: on a Pioneer, when you preview an edit, the preview will start EXACTLY at whatever beginning point of the program you selected. It will NOT show the unwanted material at all: there is no continuous display of the entire sequence with your "cuts" highlighted: the preview shows the "final result" you will get as if it was an A/B roll edit done with two VCRs.

The 640 will not let you cut to frame AND make a high-speed, undiminished, "standard", widely compatible DVD- period. You can play with it for the rest of your life but it will not do this for you. If you are going to be anal about removing every last frame of commercials, you will have to do it in "frame accurate" mode on the hard drive and then do a "video-mode", one-touch, lossy, transcoded, real-time (not high speed) copy to DVD media. Your only "lossless" option is to import your unedited dvds to a PC and edit them there. As far as I know, DVD recorders cannot do this "frame accurate standard video mode dvd" editing because they do not have a powerful enough operating system: their editing encoders have only two modes- completely off (non-destructive key frame edits) or completely on (transcode the entire recording to preserve frame accurate edits but with a quality loss). With a PC, when you do frame accurate editing the software is "smart" enough and powerful enough to limit transcoding to just the few frames before and after your edit point, seamlessly blending it into the unedited portions. A DVD recorder with this capability would be prohibitively expensive, although there may have been one or two early Toshibas that did do it for about $1000. There are no current models that do this(?)

...Sometimes you will get a message saying edit points may change slightly, sometimes you don't.

Boy oh boy. Its beginning to look like this is "the chosen thread" sent to reveal that the Pioneer 640 is the emperor with no clothes. ;)

Seriously, as far as its BASIC functionality, the Pioneer 640 is as reliable as a Swiss watch. Compared to many other recorders, it has a bulletproof burner, fairly simple timer programming and easy to understand edit functions. HOWEVER, in dozens of small ways it seems "unfinished" compared to Pioneer's earlier models and there is a long list of goofy "glitches" and operational oddities that can confuse or misguide a user. This dopey "edit points may move" alert is one of the most annoyingly random. My suggestion is to *ignore it*, because half the time its wrong and means nothing, and even when its right it doesn't matter because there's nothing you can do in response to it anyway. I often make more than one DVD copy of a given title at the same time, and that stupid alert will appear when I make the second copy (but not the first), then not appear for the third and fourth copy, then reappear for the fifth. Its bogus "nannying", as is the "hard drive is getting full" warning that starts appearing when the drive is only HALF FULL :confused:.

I couldn't possibly be any LESS picky than anyone else here: I understand where you're all coming from, and agree it does suck that the 640 is riddled with minor (but thankfully not critical) "bugs". But my own experience with the brutal breakdown rate in other recorders (including older Pios) over the last five years has made me appreciate that aside from minor quirks the Pioneer 640 (and followup 450, 550, 650) are astonishingly well-made and when it gets down to the nitty-gritty they are fantastic for my primary goal: getting DVDs burned off the hard drive with zero coasters on all types of media. The various editing features are perhaps not as accurate as an Avid box, but they get me close enough, I accept the inherent limitations, and I appreciate having an actual "erase section" function (other recorders that only allow editing by means of chapter creation/deletion/hiding drive me up the wall.)

The Pioneer 640 is far from perfect, but for my work methods and purposes I'll gladly take it warts and all before anything else thats out there. Pretty much none of the remaining DVD/HDD recorders is perfect, they all have their own issues, pick the one that does the most things "right" for your own needs. If you got stuck with one you don't really like, bear in mind the model selection is so small now your odds of getting an improvement by switching are kinda small. It may be easier to suck it up and learn to live with it. The days of multiple brand/model choice are unfortunately over.

Boy oh boy. Its beginning to look like this is "the chosen thread" sent to reveal that the Pioneer 640 is the emperor with no clothes. ;)



I consider my 640 to be very nicely clad, thankyou!

I consider the 'edit points may move' message to be just a curiosity. I do find it interesting that you say the same HDD recording will give the message one time, but not another. I will have to check that out. When I want to make more than one copy, I have just continued to use the same copy list, or used the "Disk Backup" function, if the recording is complicated. So, I don't know that I have ever selected the same HDD recording more than once. I have checked thumbnail frames, and have never found one to change. Also, when editing out commercials, I have never had a frame of commercial reappear on the DVD, after it was edited out in the HDD.

There is little I would change on my 640. I would like to have the old chapter mark button back, to set edit points while viewing. I would like a title page with an entry for only one title. I'd like to do "disk backup" from commercial discs that aren't copy protected, maybe a few other things. But, I like my 640 very much.

Ah, ok thatnks CitiBear. I thought the preview was supposed to show the part to be deleted itself.

Well you know what really sucks is I spend all this time recording thigns and then in the future I am sure they will have even old 4:3 tv shows looking good in 16:9 and be as close to HD as they can get old shows to look like and then I will be annoyed I spent all of this time on it now with these primative recorders. But I sure am not redoing them all over again later.

By the way I usually buy shows on dvd, but I want to get use out of this recorder so shows that I don't care "quite" as much about I record myself now. :p

Ah, ok thatnks CitiBear. I thought the preview was supposed to show the part to be deleted itself.


If you edit with "Chapter Edit," it will show you what is in the segment being deleted, when you highlight it for deletion. I prefer doing it that way.

It is difficult to discuss the cable/sat box phenomenon without sounding like an elitest ass- but the plain fact is most people are lazy bastards, and no matter how high tech or mentally demanding their jobs or education it seems that the minute Joe or Jane Average Consumer gets home from work they park their brains in the mailbox and flatly refuse to make the slightest effort to operate anything more complicated than a toaster. (Unless they want to hit MySpace or net porn- for that, they'll pull their hair out and run their home PCs).I think your opinion is a bit off base here. There is nothing wrong with spending one's money on something that is both simple to operate and provides the specific functionality you want without compromise. That doesn't make you a lazy bastard with a toaster mentality but rather a smart consumer. I have a lot of colleagues at work who are now starting to buy HD-TV's and as a result are switching their cable service to digital (or going with FIOS) and renting DVR's. We all talk a lot over lunch. Archiving TV programs to DVD is not a functionality they particularly care about, other than "nice to have but not necessary". Those that do, ask about a DVD recorder that they can hang off the DVR as a secondary recorder. In that case, they are more concerned with the DVDR's utility as a player -- they envision it being used primarily as a player with the added recording functionality being of secondary utility.

When we discuss DVDR's vs. DVR's the question always comes up, "do they record in HD". Answer = No, DVDR's immediately dismissed. These guys are investing in HD and they want to watch HD; DVR's record in HD, no competition. Then we get onto the issue that DVDR tuner's do not integrate with digital cable other than local broadcasts. As soon as that nugget is revealed, the DVDR conversations rarely go any further, except for those who see utility in attaching one to their DVR to primarily function as a player but give them the capability of recording off the DVR now and then and using it to transfer camcorder footage to DVD.

These are highly trained technical professionals who know their way around very sophisticated lab equipment. They don't "turn off" when they go home. They know exactly what functionality they want and the fact is, in an HD world with digital cable/FIOS, DVDR's don't provide it. I would argue that the slow demise of DVD recorders has more to do with their lack of desirable functionality, which in many ways lessens their ease of use, i.e. lack of EPG scheduling.

If you edit with "Chapter Edit," it will show you what is in the segment being deleted, when you highlight it for deletion. I prefer doing it that way.
That is the way I had been doing it. Now I see what erase section does though. It shows the end of the section BEFORE and the beginning of the section AFTER. It is actually cool and it is quicker.

Some prefer "delete section," say it's quicker. Some, like me, prefer "chapter edit," and say it is quicker. With chapter edit, I can put in book marks, including one to use for a thumbnail. This way, I only scan through the program once, which I find quicker and easier. This debate has gone one here, off and on. I say we are lucky to have a machine that is so versatile, that there are different ways, for different people.

Hi everyone - I've owned my Pioneer 640H for almost two years now and it's proven to be very reliable. I recommended mine to a friend, but I noticed you can't buy Pioneers up in Canada anymore (I remember looking at Future Shop about 6 -8 months ago, and there was a selection of about 8 DVD/HDD recorders there, and now there are only 3!!!). I recommended the Sony 160GB RDRHX750 to my friend, since it seemed to be the closest in comparison.

If my 640H ever broke down, I just don't know what I would do!!!!! Where would I buy another?!

Are DVD/HDD DVRs being phased-out in Canada like they have been in the US because of the cable company PVR competition?

Thanks!
Paula

[QUOTE=Are DVD/HDD DVRs being phased-out in Canada like they have been in the US because of the cable company PVR competition?

Thanks!
Paula[/QUOTE]

Paula,

The Pioneer Canada website still lists Future Shop, Best Buy Canada, and 2001 Audiovideo as retailers for their DVR-550H-K 160 GB hard disk recorders and their DVR-650H-K 250 GB hard disk recorders(these replaced the 640 model early last year) but all 3 retailers have deleted all Pioneer recorders from their web sites. The same thing happened last year when the 640 was being replaced by the 550 and 650. There was no official information on any new Canadian models until late May or early June. The retailers had the new models listed before Pioneer Canada even acknowledged their existance.

I currently own 3 Pioneer 640's, but went by a Scarborough Future Shop last week just to check out what was happening at the store level. I saw the 550 in their regular dvd recorder display at $399. There was also a 650 open box for $349 which I negotiated down to $299.(regular list price $549. :)

Now I have 2 machines in daily use with 2 machines for backup should there be any problems. :D

Kelson, you and I basically agree, your rebuttal essentially restates my points from a slightly different perspective but we end at the same result: DVD/HDD recorders are kaput because they can't compete with convenient recording cable boxes, period. It does not matter what the users reasoning is if they all come to the same decision.

Yes, agreed, the well educated, well-heeled technophile sticks his nose in the air and considers all standard def equipment and programs to be passe with the stench of decay, so no more standard-def recording for him- no thank you, he's thrilled to give up his right to make archival copies of anything so long as he can time shift hi-def Discovery channel broadcasts. He opts for the cable co DVR.

I still maintain the average-Joe consumer buys the big flat panel because its big and flat, has no friggin clue or concern about HDTV formats but eventually learns the HD cable channels look better. Average-Joe consumer still has five clocks around the home blinking 12:00AM and will never stand to learn to operate anything properly because that would be "work", and they already worked today, thanks. Having to synchronize two timers or set up the convoluted program guide system included in some DVD recorders is far too much trouble when you can just rent an integrated cable DVR, so that's what they do.

I'm not sneering that these people are doing what makes sense for them, I'm sneering because they are being manipulated into doing EXACTLY what the cable/sat providers and the Hollywood studios want: they are completely turning away from their home recording rights, and because of this within five years the USA will have transitioned irrevocably into a "no recording to removable media- EVER" status quo. This is the dream of every program supplier and service provider: that you don't get to record anything permanently on cheap media, instead you pay for repeated electronic rentals or buy expensive studio releases of every program you might want to keep.

It is no accident that cable/sat only allows full integration with their own rental boxes, that Hi Def is being shoved down everyones throats (ready or not), and that most flat panel displays look like mud unless they are fed a supercalafragilistic hi-def feed direct from Japan: all of this is designed to put people off standard def and get them used to the idea that hi-def is "too difficult and expensive" for traditional home recording. And its working- faster and better than their wildest projections.

There is no earthly reason why an ordinary DVD/HDD recorder could not be made interoperable with cable and satellite program guides aside from corporate greed and Hollywood manipulation. Going back years already, the feds have tried to strongarm cable-sat providers to work with the cablecard standard which would allow consumer-chosen hardware to interface seamlessly with their TV services. No dice: cable and sat companies squirm out of it using a million loopholes. So here we sit, about to totally lose our recording rights, and it REALLY pisses me off. I understand I'm part of a minority, and that in a nation of 300 million perhaps only 10 million of us are willing to slog it out and find ways to make this stuff work, but thats STILL a lot of folks being thwarted from rights they've had for two generations. It sucks.

What will suck worse is when Asia finally gets off its collective ass and figures out how to make cheap flat panels look good at multiple resolutions: in a few years, they'll be able to display standard def ten times better than they do now, which might make standard def palatable again. Unfortunately there will be no standard def recorders left around to take advantage of it, and the general attitude is "at least we can time-shift 'American Idol' in hi-def in our sleep". Hooray for Hollywood.

Kelson, you and I basically agree, your rebuttal essentially restates my points from a slightly different perspective but we end at the same result: DVD/HDD recorders are kaput because they can't compete with convenient recording cable boxes, period. It does not matter what the users reasoning is if they all come to the same decision.Yup. We're on the same page with respect to that. If the TR-50 comes out and fulfills it's promise to be an HD-DVR for OTA users, it will directly attack the last firm base for DVDR users who currently have nothing else.

Yes, agreed, the well educated, well-heeled technophile sticks his nose in the air and considers all standard def equipment and programs to be passe with the stench of decay, so no more standard-def recording for him- no thank you, he's thrilled to give up his right to make archival copies of anything so long as he can time shift hi-def Discovery channel broadcasts. He opts for the cable co DVR.I guess I really wouldn't put it that way because it sounds, well . . . awful.

It's like having a 1 megapixel camera for many years that worked great with 64MByte flash memory cards. You wait and watch for the technology to advance to the point you want and finally buy a 10 megapixel SLR -- that also uses flash cards. So now what do you do? Do you set the SLR to take pictures at 1 megapixel so you can use the old flash cards, or do you go out any buy a 2 gig card so you can utilize what you just paid for to the fullest. A HD-DVR is just many peoples' version of a 2 gig flash card -- no sneering necessary.

what software do you guys recommend to convert the recordings which are VOB files to AVI or another type of files? I burned a DVD for my friend but she couldn't view the DVD, her player wouldn't play/read the DVD but my player did play the exact DVD, so I figured it's best to buy some software to convert the files, which software should I consider? thanks

I burned a DVD for my friend but she couldn't view the DVD, her player wouldn't play/read the DVD but my player did play the exact DVD, so I figured it's best to buy some software to convert the files, which software should I consider? thanksThis may have nothing to do with file formats and everything to do with one player's low tolerance for burned sub-par media. If you burned a DVD in DVD-Video format (i.e. a finalized DVD-R from your recorder) that DVD will, in principal, play in any DVD player that supports burned media. But some players are less tolerant of marginal media, which is mostly what you will find on local store shelves.

I have several players that will read any burned media I put in them and other players that are less tolerant and will only read & play burned media that is of the highest quality (Taiyo-Yuden). So, if you are burning standard DVD-Video disks and find that they play in some DVD players but not others, switch to better media.

This may have nothing to do with file formats and everything to do with one player's low tolerance for burned sub-par media. If you burned a DVD in DVD-Video format (i.e. a finalized DVD-R from your recorder) that DVD will, in principal, play in any DVD player that supports burned media. But some players are less tolerant of marginal media, which is mostly what you will find on local store shelves.

I have several players that will read any burned media I put in them and other players that are less tolerant and will only read & play burned media that is of the highest quality (Taiyo-Yuden). So, if you are burning standard DVD-Video disks and find that they play in some DVD players but not others, switch to better media.


well it was a DVD-RW disc because I wanted to see if she liked the DVD before making a burning on a regular DVD disc, I have Verbatim DVD's, both +/-R ones, which format should I use then? the +R or the -R DVD's? thanks

well it was a DVD-RW disc because I wanted to see if she liked the DVD before making a burning on a regular DVD disc, I have Verbatim DVD's, both +/-R ones, which format should I use then? the +R or the -R DVD's? thanksMost recent equipment is multi-format. But, given the choice, start with DVD-R, they are the most widely compatible. DVD+R can be made more compatible if they are bitset to impersonate DVD-ROM, but I believe that can only be done on a PC burner. I don't recall any standalone DVDR that allows bitsetting. Make sure the DVD-R is finalized after recording. Store bought Verbatims were good for a while but I seem to remember some recent complaints about Verbatim unless they are the DataLife ones.

Older DVD players may not play RW discs. As kelson said make sure you've finalized your -RW disc though. If not it won't play on any player even new ones.

well it was a DVD-RW disc because I wanted to see if she liked the DVD before making a burning on a regular DVD disc, I have Verbatim DVD's, both +/-R ones, which format should I use then? the +R or the -R DVD's? thanks
Here's a post with lots of info on discs, +R vs. -R, compatibility, etc. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12298494&postcount=20)

If you use +RW, you won't have to worry about Finalizing, only the remote poss. that some very old players might not like the plus (+) format.

well it was a DVD-RW disc because I wanted to see if she liked the DVD before making a burning on a regular DVD disc, I have Verbatim DVD's, both +/-R ones, which format should I use then? the +R or the -R DVD's? thanks

If you're copying from the 640 to a -R or a -RW, it's important to make sure that the disc is initialized in Video Mode, and NOT VR Mode if you're planning on playing the disc on a DVD Player. Many (most?) DVD Players can't play VR Mode recordings. If you use a +R or +RW disc, it will only use Video Mode on the 640, so you won't have to worry about the recording format.

Also, when playing the DVD on a DVD player, you may need to press Play on the player to get the DVD to start. I have 3 DVD players, and they all behave differently when inserting a finalized DVD made on my 640. One immediately goes to the menu, one just start playing the first program on the disc, and the other one goes in to Stop Mode and won't start until I hit Play.

If you're copying from the 640 to a -R or a -RW, it's important to make sure that the disc is initialized in Video Mode, and NOT VR Mode if you're planning on playing the disc on a DVD Player. Many (most?) DVD Players can't play VR Mode recordings. If you use a +R or +RW disc, it will only use Video Mode on the 640, so you won't have to worry about the recording format.

Also, when playing the DVD on a DVD player, you may need to press Play on the player to get the DVD to start. I have 3 DVD players, and they all behave differently when inserting a finalized DVD made on my 640. One immediately goes to the menu, one just start playing the first program on the disc, and the other one goes in to Stop Mode and won't start until I hit Play.
Good point on the VR-mode -RW... the 640 automatically initializes -RW discs in VR-mode... you have to change it to Video Mode in the Recording menu before recording or dubbing to it.

On the auto-play thing, I found the 640 will auto-play if you insert the disc, then press PLAY instead of closing the tray manually. The PLAY button closes the tray and starts the disc playing (to whatever point the disc is set up to begin with). On home-made DVDs, that should be the first frame of trhe video, and on commercial DVDs, whatever they've set to start. Bypasses the "Load" function or incorporates it into the PLAY function so it's one op.?

Auto-play also works on many other DVDRs, and +R discs seem to be more easily auto-played on at least the machines I have.

wajo, the pressing Play trick doesn't work on my Philips DVP642 DVD Player. It will close the door, and read the disk, but it still goes into Stop mode. The only way to get the DVD to start to to hit Play after the disc is loaded, and the player reads "STOP". I guess there's no way to know for sure how a DVD made on the 640 is gonna behave on any given DVD player, but as long as you know to press Play, there shouldn't be any problem.

I don't know much about players. ;)

Futureshop in my town has both the 550 and 650. The 650 is $399 (listed as clearance) and the 550 is $459. I wonder if they are doing away with the 650. Like others have mentioned their website doesn't show either of them anymore. They also had the Panasonic EH55 for a while and now they no longer have them.

Futureshop in my town has both the 550 and 650. The 650 is $399 (listed as clearance) and the 550 is $459. I wonder if they are doing away with the 650. Like others have mentioned their website doesn't show either of them anymore. They also had the Panasonic EH55 for a while and now they no longer have them.

Let us know where the futureshop is, NOW:D:D:D

As kelson said make sure you've finalized your -RW disc though. If not it won't play on any player even new ones.

Not entirely true. My 400 disc player, a Sony DVP CX995 plays unfinalized VR mode -RW discs just fine. I think many newer players can do this, but one can't rely on it, and should finalize to be safe.

Sigh. I am back to having only 2 minutes of free space and I now have 99 titles on my HDD. haha. Also got to love the fact that I have spent so much time burning discs of crappy mismatched audio/video and I definitely am not going to start all over so I will just have a lot of stupid looking shows I guess.

wajo, the pressing Play trick doesn't work on my Philips DVP642 DVD Player. It will close the door, and read the disk, but it still goes into Stop mode.
The default behavior with my Oppo 980 player (or so I assume, because I did not set this up in its settings) is to immediately begin playing the disc -- the tray closes, the disc loads, and it just starts playing. I'm talking about discs I've made with the 640. Commercial discs would of course follow their authoring layout . . . although there is a two-button bypass sequence for going straight to the Main Menu.

One other thing that is really great about the Oppo is the way it remembers where you left off viewing on a particular disc, and resumes from that point. Kind of amazing when this happens with a disc that was last played 25 discs ago ! There is very little not to like about that player -- maybe just the small remote with its tiny and tightly packed keys.

As others have noted, I feel it is best to try to maximize the life of the 640 burner's laser by using the 640 for making DVDs only. The regular playing job I leave to the player, which can upscale and do other things in playback that the 640 cannot.

The 640 will not let you cut to frame AND make a high-speed, undiminished, "standard", widely compatible DVD- period. You can play with it for the rest of your life but it will not do this for you. If you are going to be anal about removing every last frame of commercials, you will have to do it in "frame accurate" mode on the hard drive and then do a "video-mode", one-touch, lossy, transcoded, real-time (not high speed) copy to DVD media. Your only "lossless" option is to import your unedited dvds to a PC and edit them there. As far as I know, DVD recorders cannot do this "frame accurate standard video mode dvd" editing because they do not have a powerful enough operating system: their editing encoders have only two modes- completely off (non-destructive key frame edits) or completely on (transcode the entire recording to preserve frame accurate edits but with a quality loss). With a PC, when you do frame accurate editing the software is "smart" enough and powerful enough to limit transcoding to just the few frames before and after your edit point, seamlessly blending it into the unedited portions.

At the risk of repeating myself, I have to say this is contrary to my experience. And I give my 640 heavy use. Besides the movies I regularly record, I do things like record a couple shows for friends who were out of the country for three months. Fortunately, those shows still have (at least) brief, findable black frames between commercials / promos and the program segments. I've gotten to the point where I can remove everything but the program content from a 2-hour block with around 20 minutes worth of editing on the 640. (It is quicker and easier in Frame Accurate mode, though I sometimes do this in Video Mode.) Either way, the results get a high speed burn to DVD . . . which, as far as I know, means no transcoding and no loss of quality. I'm sure the edits won't be quite as clean as those on the eventual series season-DVD will be, but it is doubtful you would find more than a very infrequent sliver of something left over that preceded or followed those black frames.


This is why the cable/sat box took off like a shot: an infant can operate it. Turn on the TV, see the name of the show you want to time shift, click the name of the show, DONE. Thats it. The box is a one-trick pony, but its trick is the one most people want most of the time.

This is the mass market, at least as it has evolved in the US. Much as we videoholics might loathe the domino effect of the cable/sat DVR, we can't dismiss it, and in good conscience must recommend it to the average timeshifter as the simplest, most reliable, most cost-effective solution.
. . .
we are *motivated*, we WANT that shiny disc we can put away on a shelf and watch at our convenience. Most people do not have that hoarding instinct: they want to timeshift it, watch it once or twice, and then let the box auto-erase it.

Here I can't really argue with your conclusions, but it continues to mystify me that we could be in such a small minority. Or that most people are seemingly content to buy a few commercial DVDs, timeshift whatever programs they watch on the sat/cable box, and turn their home movies over to a service for transfer. Forget about doing a favor for a friend or relative who lives in another city ! Nor do you have to be such a tremendous film buff to want to build a library of favorite stuff that seldom turns up, or may not be available at all in a commercial release, or which you might not have the time to view for a few more months. But when you're ready to watch it, there it is, and in a portable format -- in case you'd like to share it with someone else. I just don't get it.

As to degree of difficulty with these units, give me a break. My car or my cellphone has been harder to learn than the 640. (Still can't make use of more than about 5% of the features of the Voice Command - Nav unit in my car.) All of the VCRs I've owned, going back 20 years, have been more complicated . . . but they were hardly the typical low-end units. This is far from being rocket science.

That is what I like about the Panasonic EH55. You can split a hair when editing out commercials in video mode and high speed it to DVD. It doesn't appear to move much at all. I get no pieces of commercials or slight loss of programming when played back. Yeah, I'm a stickler when it comes to editing. Thats the only thing I don't like about the Pio. Otherwise its a great recorder. One thing to mention. I did have another EH55 that seemed to move more on the edit points than the EH55 I have now. I don't know if that relates to the different hard drives used on the EH55 or other reason, but I did notice one performed more accurate on edits than the other.

Ripper, interesting on the two EH55's. Is your current one "Made in Japan" or "Made in Malaysia"?

Apparently, Panasonic makes, or used to make, 1st batch in Japan, then farms out mfg to Malaysia.

WTF! A 640 just sold on eBay for over $500, jumping from $225 to $510 in the last 30 seconds or so.

WTF! A 640 just sold on eBay for over $500, jumping from $225 to $510 in the last 30 seconds or so.

Well, I mentioned that listing in a thread on VH, a couple hours before the auction closed, so maybe it's my fault . . . ?! But, y'know, enough of them turn up there that you probably wouldn't have to wait more than a few days for the next one to come along. Shortly after the 640 was discontinued, we were seeing eBay prices of up to $700. OTOH, I bought one several months ago for well under $300., in great shape. I don't believe that was a fluke, because I've seen others close near that price. With eBay, you just never know.

If CitiBear is correct -- which he may well be -- and most of these DVDR customers were either ultra-lazy, CE clueless, or both, and you just had to have a 640 (as opposed to buying one of the Canadian models on closeout), but you missed out earlier, the good news is that there will probably be a steady stream of these on the used market. And many of them will be very lightly used, due to the original owner giving up early or deciding this just wasn't for him after all.

Well, I mentioned that listing in a thread on VH, a couple hours before the auction closed, so maybe it's my fault . . . ?! But, y'know, enough of them turn up there that you probably wouldn't have to wait more than a few days for the next one to come along. Shortly after the 640 was discontinued, we were seeing eBay prices of up to $700. OTOH, I bought one several months ago for well under $300., in great shape. I don't believe that was a fluke, because I've seen others close near that price. With eBay, you just never know.

If CitiBear is correct -- which he may well be -- and most of these DVDR customers were either ultra-lazy, CE clueless, or both, and you just had to have a 640 (as opposed to buying one of the Canadian models on closeout), but you missed out earlier, the good news is that there will probably be a steady stream of these on the used market. And many of them will be very lightly used, due to the original owner giving up early or deciding this just wasn't for him after all.Yeah, what suprised me is that 531s, 533s and 633s have been going for $200 +/- $50 but $500 for a 640 just seemed insane, even more insane than Panny EH55s selling for $500-600+

Ripper, interesting on the two EH55's. Is your current one "Made in Japan" or "Made in Malaysia"?

Apparently, Panasonic makes, or used to make, 1st batch in Japan, then farms out mfg to Malaysia.


Mine is made in China. I think it has more to do with the manufacturer of hard drive they use, WD, Seagate, ect. I never took the cover off the EH50'S and EH55's to find out. Wish I did. I might check with the one I have now. I posted a long time ago with pictures. The EH55 I had was shifting the edit points a bit compared to the 50 I both owned at the time. My second 55 doesn't shift much like the first 55 and more accurrate like the 50.

Doesn't look like the the Pio's and Panasonic's are getting big bucks like they use too on EB. At one time you can get $800-$1000 for one. I see them them now at $609 new and not selling. I guess people are settling for Philips and Magnavox HDD Recorders now to save a few bucks. I record mostly using LP on the Panny and MN 16 on the Pio to fit a few episodes on a DVD. The video quality is still very very good at those settings. I don't know about the Philips and other recorders but the Pio and Panny were the best at those speeds.

Mine is made in China. I think it has more to do with the manufacturer of hard drive they use, WD, Seagate, ect.
Yea, that's one of the major diff., in my mind, between the current Maggy and Philips 3575/76. The Maggy has a WD, the Philips has a Seagate with great specs.

At the risk of repeating myself, I have to say this is contrary to my experience. [...] I've gotten to the point where I can remove everything but the program content from a 2-hour block with around 20 minutes worth of editing on the 640. (It is quicker and easier in Frame Accurate mode, though I sometimes do this in Video Mode.) Either way, the results get a high speed burn to DVD . . . which, as far as I know, means no transcoding and no loss of quality.

There is some degree of variation in the "frame accurate-highspeed copy" function. Pioneer's official standpoint is that high speed copy is NOT compatible with frame-accurate editing, and/or affected somewhat by your blank media choice. It seems to be an "unsupported feature" when it does work. Since there's no guarantee, and Pioneer talks out of both sides of their mouth, I just don't bother with it. All my work is in video mode on the HDD, copied to DVD-R exclusively.

To clarify for those who may be confused, the Pioneer "frame accurate" feature is badly named. Using the Pioneer-recommended standard "video mode" edit system, the recorder forces you to cut on the nearest key frame, which sometimes falls slightly off the exact frame you'd prefer and sticks you with a split-second of unwanted material. But once made, the edit DOES HOLD after a transfer to DVD. In that sense, the 640 and other Pioneers are as "frame accurate" as any other recorder. When you specifically invoke what Pioneer calls its "frame accurate" editing, it disables the force-to-keyframe feature and allows you to pick the exact frames you prefer to cut on, then re-encodes the entire title in real time upon transfer to DVD to ensure those odd-edited frames are supported. That is Pioneers official line.

What seeker47 and others may be seeing, when their machines allow high-speed copy of titles they edited in frame-accurate mode, is some flexibility built into the system. The recorder analyzes each title before copying to DVD, and if your edits naturally all fall close enough to key frames the machine will default to a high speed copy. In other words, "video mode editing" guarantees high-speed copy compatibility, and "frame accurate mode" is randomly compatible.

What seeker47 and others may be seeing, when their machines allow high-speed copy of titles they edited in frame-accurate mode, is some flexibility built into the system. The recorder analyzes each title before copying to DVD, and if your edits naturally all fall close enough to key frames the machine will default to a high speed copy. In other words, "video mode editing" guarantees high-speed copy compatibility, and "frame accurate mode" is randomly compatible.Or perhaps they're allowed to highspeed copy because the target DVD is initialized as vr-mode which supports the frame-accurate edits.

What seeker47 and others may be seeing, when their machines allow high-speed copy of titles they edited in frame-accurate mode, is some flexibility built into the system.
Frame-accurate editing always allows high-speed copy to Video-mode DVDs, with a warning that the edit points will move if HS copied.

Only when you run your HDD in VR-mode can you NOT copy some titles in high speed... LP/MN9-15 can't be high-speed copied if the title was recorded to a VR-mode HDD, per the note on pg 83 of the manual. These rec modes produce a non-std resolution in VR mode per the chart on pg 125, assoc. with LP/MN9-15.

Widescreen titles rec in SEP-LP/MN1-15 also can't be HS copied if in VR mode.

The ever-vigilant wajo :) brings up another Pioneer wildcard factor in his post above, re the "frame accurate" confusion: Pioneer is very very unclear in the way they implement two different overall *recording* methods: "video mode" (standard DVD-R) and "VR mode" (non-standard RW-related format). One of the most confusing aspects of Pioneer operation is that the HDD can be run in one mode and the burner in another, so that "VR" material on the HDD can be converted to "video mode" during transfer to DVD-R. If you do set the 640 up that way, what wajo and seeker 47 say is largely true: you can use more precise "frame accurate" editing on the HDD and then the machine will high speed copy that title to a DVD.

However, this is exactly the practice Pioneer warns may lead to your edit points "moving" during transfer: when it converts the VR title on the HDD to Video mode on the DVD, it must rearrange any edit points that are not on key frames to meet DVD-R video standards. In actual use, many people get away with it and don't notice any changes. But the possibility is there and needs to be considered in any project that requires 100% repeatable results. If you need total predictability, using Video mode with key-frame editing as the recording format on both the HDD and burner of your 640 will guarantee consistent results. If not, the "VR on HDD to Video on DVD" mixed-mode gamble often turns out okay.

What I was discussing earlier was the rather pointless default option Pioneer offers: "frame accurate" Video-mode edits on the HDD which *cannot* then be transferred to DVD unless the machine re-encodes the entire title in real time: no high speed copy there. The manual is so hopelessly arcane on all these points you wouldn't know (and I wouldn't remember) without wajo's helpful posts.

The ever-vigilant wajo :) brings up another Pioneer wildcard factor in his post above, re the "frame accurate" confusion: Pioneer is very very unclear in the way they implement two different overall *recording* methods: "video mode" (standard DVD-R) and "VR mode" (non-standard RW-related format). One of the most confusing aspects of Pioneer operation is that the HDD can be run in one mode and the burner in another, so that "VR" material on the HDD can be converted to "video mode" during transfer to DVD-R. If you do set the 640 up that way, what wajo and seeker 47 say is largely true: you can use more precise "frame accurate" editing on the HDD and then the machine will high speed copy that title to a DVD.

EXCEPT for the small detail that I've never had the HDD set up to record in VR mode. (On either unit -- I also own a circa-2004 model 520, which I like a lot). The only VR I have set up is the Init default for -RW discs. In fact, I believe that the default for the 520 is frame-accurate-mode editing on the HDD. I can probably check to confirm this, if necessary. I am certain that the 640 always asks me which mode to use, when editing material on the HDD. I'm also quite certain that I've very seldom (always deliberately, in very different circumstances, such as taking a MN 28 recording down to SP) had to do any real time burns.

However, this is exactly the practice Pioneer warns may lead to your edit points "moving" during transfer: when it converts the VR title on the HDD to Video mode on the DVD, it must rearrange any edit points that are not on key frames to meet DVD-R video standards. In actual use, many people get away with it and don't notice any changes. But the possibility is there and needs to be considered in any project that requires 100% repeatable results. If you need total predictability, using Video mode with key-frame editing as the recording format on both the HDD and burner of your 640 will guarantee consistent results. If not, the "VR on HDD to Video on DVD" mixed-mode gamble often turns out okay.

This seems a much more plausible description to me than your post #3092 above. Still, I must have been awfully lucky -- or gotten awfully good at this -- not to have had any problems with the burns or shifting edit points. If the latter, I'm sure this could not have been the case from the beginning of my DVDR usage.

The manual is so hopelessly arcane on all these points you wouldn't know (and I wouldn't remember) without wajo's helpful posts.

It's not as clear as it could or should be. But have you looked over any Panasonic/Sony/Toshiba/Philips manuals, for their recorder models ? I haven't, but from what I've heard, the Pioneer manuals come off much better in the comparison.

Does anyone know of a web page somewhere that lists all of the Pioneer DVDR models -- at least by year of release, but perhaps also with some other info ? This would hopefully include both the N. American and the foreign models. For example, there was apparently some model that had Tivo built-in, but I have no idea if this was an early or late model, a Canadian model (do they use Tivo in Canada ?), or what.

Does anyone know of a web page somewhere that lists all of the Pioneer DVDR models -- at least by year of release, but perhaps also with some other info ? This would hopefully include both the N. American and the foreign models. For example, there was apparently some model that had Tivo built-in, but I have no idea if this was an early or late model, a Canadian model (do they use Tivo in Canada ?), or what.
Here's a Pio list with 17 DVR models plus many others. (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Support/HomeEntertainment/ch.Blu-rayDisc+DVD.Archived?vgnextfmt=Archived)

The Pioneer DVR-810 and the nearly identical Pioneer Elite DVR-57H were the models with "genuine" TiVO built in. They are quite long in the tooth now (2003-2004) and their burners are not happy with current retail media (though TY 8x DVD-R works well). The TiVO feature is cool but like most "real" TiVO boxes you cannot edit out commercials, in fact you can't edit at all. On the plus side I believe it does author the DVDs with great TiVO-style menus.

The 2005 Pioneer models 531-533-633 use the free TV Guide On Screen system, which is not quite as good as "real" TiVO. People seem to love TVGOS on the Panasonic and Toshiba machines that have it, but it was implemented very poorly by Pioneer and these models are pretty well loathed because of the problems it causes. Aside from that they are very nice machines, compact yet with nearly-complete front panel controls that allow full operation even without the remote. The TVGOS can be quite problematic, though.

I have a Pioneer DVR 640HS. When recording from HDD to a DL disc, is there any way to "force" a break between layers, so there will be no hesitation. When I watch the material on the HDD it is fine, but when I watch the DVD-DL there is a slight hesitation at the moment when the layers switch. If I could "force" this break at a fade to black or similar - then this would not be noticeable on the disc that I burn. Could not find this discussed or anything in the Pioneer manual. Thanks for your comment(s).

I have a Pioneer DVR 640HS. When recording from HDD to a DL disc, is there any way to "force" a break between layers, so there will be no hesitation. When I watch the material on the HDD it is fine, but when I watch the DVD-DL there is a slight hesitation at the moment when the layers switch. If I could "force" this break at a fade to black or similar - then this would not be noticeable on the disc that I burn. Could not find this discussed or anything in the Pioneer manual. Thanks for your comment(s).+DL media allows the author to set the layer break point. -DL media does not. Given that, there is PC authoring software that allows the author to specify the layer break for +DL media, but I'm not aware of any DVDR that has that functionality.

The hesitation at layer break is really a function of the player. Good, moderately priced stand-alone players will buffer the layer break -- inherent is all commercial DVD's -- so that it is invisble to the viewer.

+DL media allows the author to set the layer break point. -DL media does not. Given that, there is PC authoring software that allows the author to specify the layer break for +DL media, but I'm not aware of any DVDR that has that functionality.

The hesitation at layer break is really a function of the player. Good, moderately priced stand-alone players will buffer the layer break -- inherent is all commercial DVD's -- so that it is invisble to the viewer.
The media I am using is DVD+R DL (Verbatim 2.4X) - this is the only DL media that I could locate that is inkjet printable. On my standalone player attached to my Sony XBR TV, I had never noticed any hesitation at the layer switch - but I had assumed that when the disc was authored that the moment of layer change had been chose wisely. On the two DL discs that I have made I was not so lucky and that moment came during a scene with motion, so the hesitation was noticeable.

+DL media allows the author to set the layer break point. -DL media does not. Given that, there is PC authoring software that allows the author to specify the layer break for +DL media, but I'm not aware of any DVDR that has that functionality.

The hesitation at layer break is really a function of the player. Good, moderately priced stand-alone players will buffer the layer break -- inherent is all commercial DVD's -- so that it is invisble to the viewer.

The only way to do this might be to rip the DVD to your computer, then use ImgBurn to re-burn it. ImgBurn lets you set the layer break, subject to certain parameters that can vary from case to case. (There will usually be several places where the layer break can be set, some better than others and graded accordingly; hopefully one of these will be acceptable to you. There is a preview function, which lets you see what would be going on at those points in the video.)

Obviously, this is not going to be the most practical solution. It's more time and work, and you would be using two pricey blanks to reach your result, per movie. ImgBurn itself is free for the download.

If I ever had reason or occasion to go this route, I would probably choose to run the movie through another utility, FixVTS, after the rip and prior to using ImgBurn. The reason for that is based on things I've read in forums on VH and AVS, to the effect that the authoring done by these DVDRs can be not strictly following the DVD-spec rules. Most often that does not result in a problem you'd notice, but it can be advantageous to "clean up" the video to spec (which FixVTS does), in order to have the best compliance with the array of standalone players out there.

Here's a Pio list with 17 DVR models plus many others. (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Support/HomeEntertainment/ch.Blu-rayDisc+DVD.Archived?vgnextfmt=Archived)

Thanks, Wajo. That's most of what I was looking for, just minus the relative production dates.

I have a Pioneer DVR 640HS. When recording from HDD to a DL disc, is there any way to "force" a break between layers, so there will be no hesitation. When I watch the material on the HDD it is fine, but when I watch the DVD-DL there is a slight hesitation at the moment when the layers switch. If I could "force" this break at a fade to black or similar - then this would not be noticeable on the disc that I burn. Could not find this discussed or anything in the Pioneer manual. Thanks for your comment(s).

I have made a lot of +R DL discs on my Pio 640. Besides it, I have three other DVD players. I do get a slight hesitation, playing back on the 640. On the other three players, the hesitation is rarely noticeable, even in action scenes, and even then, VERY slight.

One odd quirk I did notice is that if a title starts on the first layer, but runs onto the second layer, you must select a thumbnail from the part of the title that will be on the first layer. If you don't, the final frame on the first layer will be your thumbnail, and the layer change will have a rather noticeable hesitation. Titles that are entirely on the second layer can have thumbnails, with no problems.

My Picture Quality Review (suplex Review #4)

Well after some more testing, I think that both Real-Time, and High-Speed dubs are as clear as the source they recorded from, making me thing that all the fuss about how good the Pioneer 640 looks on paper...is for good reason. The clarity of the picture when you would press "pause" was about as clear as a digital photograph.

My Toshiba D-R1 used to give a nice picture quality if the scene was outside in broad daylight, but a dark scene...like people talking in a dim lit bar, would show pixilation and artifacts. The Pioneer does great with Bright and Dark scenes.

I also put multiple titles on one DVD-R (removing and inserting the disc in between to make sure it would recognize it again) and it handled that just fine. I even tried two titles from the HDD (one High Speed, and one Real Time), and two titles direct to DVD (one Timer Recording, and one Manual Recording) and all four titles came out on the same DVD in great quality.
The compatibility of the disc played just fine on all the other DVD players in the house (including a portable one), so that's a big plus right there (would have been bad if it only played in the unit that recorded it, but it doesn't) and I played DVD's that I recorded in the Toshiba D-R1 and D-R2 models, in the Pioneer, and they all played just fine.

Something else I wanted to mention (as I promised in a former post I would try it and give my results here). When manually recording to a DVD I would always have problems if I pressed "pause" during the recording (using my older Toshiba's), but the Pioneer can handle it with no problem and finalizes just fine.

Little things I like about the Pioneer (compared to using two non-HDD units) is that when you do a dub (no matter what kind) you don't have to be there to "Stop" the recording...it's automatic. That's not news to anyone who has recorded using a HDD unit before, but I really like not having to worry about going back in the room to stop the recording now.

Oh and last thing...for now...is that I agree with "GhostInTheMachin" about how quiet the unit is when recording something. My Toshiba D-R1 was quiet, but the D-R2 made fan noise (only if it was on), so now I won't have to worry about which recorder to use if I want to record something late at night, just record it on the HDD and it will be whisper silent.

Until next time...

I was wondering if someone could tell me how I go about putting multiple titles on one disc like suplex is talking about. I done a search to try and find the answer with no luck and man is thia a long thread. Thanks in advance...................scotty

Scotty, if you have all the titles you want on one disc, as separate titles on your HDD, select "copy" from the menu, select "HDD>DVD," and this will bring up the list of what is on your HDD. Just highlight and click "Enter" on each title you want, in the order you want them on the disc. If you choose more than disc capacity, it will give you the option of a real time dub, to make them all fit, or canceling the last one, or continuing, and you can edit more, until they fit, in the copy list.

If you are filling the disc, you can also opt to finalize then. If you are say, adding one ep of a series program at a time to the disc, don't finalize. Next time you want to add one, just insert the disc, and add another title.

If you have a single title you wish to divide into separate titles, you can use the "divide" function, either by going to your HDD titles list, highlighting the title, going to the edit menu, and then to "divide," or, you can start with the HDD>DVD copy function, select the title to your copy list, and divide there. All this info is in your owner's manual. I had to read the darned thing over about three times, highlight a few things, and write in a few things on the table of contents pages, so I could learn to use the 640. It's worth the effort!

Thanks for the reply kjbawc, what I am refering to is suplex statement

" I also put multiple titles on one DVD-R (removing and inserting the disc in between to make sure it would recognize it again) and it handled that just fine. I even tried two titles from the HDD (one High Speed, and one Real Time), and two titles direct to DVD (one Timer Recording, and one Manual Recording) and all four titles came out on the same DVD in great quality."

I really need to know how you do this to the disc, as everytime I record to the disc then reinsert it, it writes over the last recording not as Suplex says
" (removing and inserting the disc in between to make sure it would recognize it again) and it handled that just fine.
I guess what I am asking is recording more than one show onto a disc.

Thanks again..................scotty

Thanks for the reply kjbawc, what I am refering to is suplex statement

" I also put multiple titles on one DVD-R (removing and inserting the disc in between to make sure it would recognize it again) and it handled that just fine. I even tried two titles from the HDD (one High Speed, and one Real Time), and two titles direct to DVD (one Timer Recording, and one Manual Recording) and all four titles came out on the same DVD in great quality."

I really need to know how you do this to the disc, as everytime I record to the disc then reinsert it, it writes over the last recording not as Suplex says
" (removing and inserting the disc in between to make sure it would recognize it again) and it handled that just fine.
I guess what I am asking is recording more than one show onto a disc.

Thanks again..................scotty

Maybe this is where you were going with your query:

As I understand it (or, rather, have been told), the DVD spec does not support multi-session discs, the way one can do with CDs until you bump up against disc capacity issues. Although you can do this with CDs -- the Table of Contents is rewritten with each session, and anything you've discarded is "lost", though its space is still occupied -- I found in my own experience that each new CD session upped the risk of trashing the whole disc. So I got in the habit of rarely doing that, and, when I did, of keeping the # of sessions to a minimum.

The main difference, I think, is that the CD is finalized -- and then re-finalized -- by each session. With DVD, you can't do that; you can only finalize it once, when you've finished writing to the disc. Sometimes I purposely leave a DVD unfinalized, knowing that I will be copying a few shorter segments (like half-hour shows) to it, at separate times, until it is nearly full. At that point, I finalize it. I'm mainly talking about -R in Video Mode here, although I do something similar with -RW and VR Mode, which does not need to be finalized.

Whenever you are going to copy something, the Pioneer DVDR will tell you whether or not it will fit in the remaining disc capacity. I have never lost anything this way, nor had a disc become unreadable, and I'm having trouble understanding how you could over-write something on the optical media (you can't), or otherwise lose it.

Thanks for the reply kjbawc, what I am refering to is suplex statement

" I also put multiple titles on one DVD-R (removing and inserting the disc in between to make sure it would recognize it again) and it handled that just fine. I even tried two titles from the HDD (one High Speed, and one Real Time), and two titles direct to DVD (one Timer Recording, and one Manual Recording) and all four titles came out on the same DVD in great quality."

I really need to know how you do this to the disc, as everytime I record to the disc then reinsert it, it writes over the last recording not as Suplex says
" (removing and inserting the disc in between to make sure it would recognize it again) and it handled that just fine.
I guess what I am asking is recording more than one show onto a disc.

Thanks again..................scotty

Yes, as Seeker says, you can't overwrite -R, or +R media, only -RW and +RW media. To put more than one title on a DVD, just record a title on it, do not finalize, and put it back in the DVDR any time later, and record another title to it. I do that all the time. You can do it until the disc is full, then finalize. Even if you are using RW media, you would have to deliberately reinitialize the disc, before you could write over it. Otherwise, later recordings would just add to what was already there. So, in Seeker's terms, the Pio, and I expect most, or probably all, DVDRs support "multi-session discs" just fine.

I wonder if you are being confused by the copy menu. When you insert a disc with a title already recorded on it, go to HDD>DVD in the copy menu, and select a new title to record to disc, the existing title does not show up in the copy list, but the available capacity of the DVD, listed below, will show how much is left, reflecting the missing amount, taken by the previous recordings.

If you want to see what title you have already recorded to an unfinalized disc, select the DVD function with the remote button, so that the blue light on the front of the machine is off, and the amber light is on. Then, just hit the same button you use to see what is on your HDD, and it will show the contents of the DVD instead. Then, you can push Play, or Enter, and the unfinalized DVD will play.

Thanks for all your help guys, I was making a mountain out of a molehill I got it figured, quite simple really....................scotty

So, in Seeker's terms, the Pio, and I expect most, or probably all, DVDRs support "multi-session discs" just fine.
Well, technically, it can't really be multi-session if unfinalized . . . . (That DVD spec, n'all.)

Incidentally: I'm not aware of any formal advice on this, by the book, but I think it is probably unwise to leave anything unfinalized on -R or +R for "too long", or left sitting on -RW or +RW (whether it's in VR Mode or Video Mode) indefinitely. How long is too long ? I really don't know, but suspect it may fall somewhere in the 6 - 24 month range. Better safe than sorry.

I have used Nero's COPY DISK to copy RW's to -R, and finalize them in the process, with good results so far. There are probably some other programs for doing this, as well.

Incidentally: I'm not aware of any formal advice on this, by the book, but I think it is probably unwise to leave anything unfinalized on -R or +R for "too long", or left sitting on -RW or +RW (whether it's in VR Mode or Video Mode) indefinitely. How long is too long ? I really don't know, but suspect it may fall somewhere in the 6 - 24 month range. Better safe than sorry.
You need to finalize all discs JUST BEFORE YOUR DVDR CRAPS OUT! :D

You need to finalize all discs JUST BEFORE YOUR DVDR CRAPS OUT! :D
In the worst case, you could probably do this on another Pioneer DVDR -- probably any model from the 510 on would do. (Unless it is a dual-layer recording, in which case I'm guessing you'd need a 640 or later.)

It's been several months since I've posted on here, so I want to just say HI.
I have just switched to Direct TV. I ordered the HD package (and of course SD also) with a HD-DVR receiver. One of the best things that I like about the 640 is that I can record a movie, football game, whatever, to the HDD and then burn a DVD for later play-back. My question is: If I record a football game to the Direct TV DVR will I still be able to transfer the recoring to the 640 so as to burn a disk, or maybe from the DVR directly to 640 to burn a disk, or do I have to hook the DVR to a computer some way as to burn a disk. Football is just around the corner and I would like to resolve this issue. Has anyone done any of these things, or do you think it's impossible?
Note: I know that the transfer to the 640 would not be HD, but I really don't care about that as long as I can still burn a DVD for later viewing.
Thanks

Very simple. Just connect video/audio cables from the DVR output to a Line input on the 640. To record, select that Line input on the 640 and press REC on the 640 and PLAY on the DVR. You should be able to see what you're recording thru the 640's line input to the TV.

Your DVR should output with no special setting, but if it doesn't, look for some setting to output "to VCR" or something similar... might even be a connection that has similar ident.

I have my Dish HD 722 DVR connected to my Pioneer 640 for the exact same purpose. Been pulling college football and basketball games since last fall doing it. Since the 722 has support for 2 independent outputs, I have TV1 set to 16:9/letterbox and TV2 to 4:3. This way, I can either record widescreen in anamorphic or non-anamorphic (no flags though) or cropped fullscreen to DVDs.

For football games, I record 1 Half per DVD for better quality. I set the 640 to the desired estimated MN quality and do the real-time transfer from the Dish DVR. If, after editing, it won't fit for nothing on the DVD or is way too short, I will adjust the MN quality and transfer again from the Dish DVR. Yes, it can be time consuming, but I guess I am anal about PQ.

Geordon, just curious. Can you record the game live to the 640 thru the Dish 722 output while it's also recording to the DVR? If so, wouldn't that give you a 1st gen (SD) version on the 640 that you could then Divide, if nec., then high-speed dub to DVDs... no loss in SD PQ then?

wajo,

Dish and DirecTV DVRs record the digital signal directly from the satellite, so there is no generational loss between watching live and watching the recording. Actually, watching "live" is watching a recording anyway, since everything is placed on the hard drive and then viewed from there.

These direct digital recordings are better than recordings of digital channels made on a DVD recorder like the Philips 3575/3576 units because the DVD recorders convert to analog before recording the program, while the satellite DVRs actually record the digital signal and convert to analog when playing back the recorded program.

HD TiVo and HD DVRs from cable also record the digital signals directly like the satellite DVRs do.

Budget, thanks for that, but I was really trying to see why Geordon was doing a "real time transfer from the DVR" if he was "anal about PQ"?

I wondered why he couldn't set a 640 timer rec simultaneously with the DVR recording and have a 1st gen on the 640 HDD to start with, then get on disc in the best way, which might include Dividing then high-speed dubbing, as necessary?

I wondered why he couldn't set a 640 timer rec simultaneously with the DVR recording and have a 1st gen on the 640 HDD to work with?

No need. Just play back the DVR recording, and record it to the DVDR's HDD later, then edit, and burn to disc. I do this all the time. Typically, I set up a film to transfer when I go to sleep, and it is done in the morning.

No need. Just play back the DVR recording, and record it to the DVDR's HDD later, then edit, and burn to disc. I do this all the time. Typically, I set up a film to transfer when I go to sleep, and it is done in the morning.


Are the connections and settings from the DirectTV HD DVR to the 640, simple or complex? Can a layman do it, or do you you have to be a electronic expert?

Sorry,
I meant to quote kjbawc: I guess I don't know how.

Are the connections and settings from the DirectTV HD DVR to the 640, simple or complex? Can a layman do it, or do you you have to be a electronic expert?

I route everything through my AVR, but all you need to do is run R/L audio, and S-Video lines from the cable box to your DVDR.

I made a recording for a friend of mine where the first half showed fine on their DVD player viewing through the TV and the last half was screwed up??????

The part that played OK was done at SP speed and the non viewable was done at MN26.
Does that mean what we record and burn at the MN speeds are non viewable on other DVD players?

Urlee

Did you ever resolve this issue? I think I may be having a similar problem. I have given a friend a disc recorded at MN20 and they can't play it on their computer although it will play on their standard DVD player hooked up to the TV. I know it is not the media because I sent another disc on the same media and it plays fine. Unfortunately, I don't know the speed of that recording because I didn't make the original recording, I just made a disc copy.

I have given a friend a disc recorded at MN20 and they can't play it on their computer although it will play on their standard DVD player hooked up to the TV.

So far I've been very lucky the past few years using Pioneer 531, 540, and 640 recorders: out of hundreds of discs made for other people (most recorded at MN speeds) , I've only had 4 or 5 returned to me as "unplayable".

Often this is a random problem that just occasionally pops up with nearly all standalone DVD recorders (the highly-regarded Panasonics and Toshibas have also had quite a few incompatible-disc reports). Recorders "fudge" the DVD standard a little in order to operate conveniently, relying on todays fairly wide DVD player tolerances to compensate. Unfortunately it doesn't always work. If a particular DVD is very important and seems problematical on everything but your recorder, the only way to fix it is to strip the files (on a computer that can read the disc) and re-author them, then re-burn to a new disc using the computer.

Also, we can almost never truly rule out "media failure" completely: each blank disc has slight variations which can momentarily cause an issue with the recorder and result in a very slightly off-spec burn that will play in 9 out of 10 readers, but of course not your mom's or your boss's on the one day you REALLY needed it to play. Murphy's Law. Its an imperfect technology.

Did you ever resolve this issue? I think I may be having a similar problem. I have given a friend a disc recorded at MN20 and they can't play it on their computer although it will play on their standard DVD player hooked up to the TV. I know it is not the media because I sent another disc on the same media and it plays fine. Unfortunately, I don't know the speed of that recording because I didn't make the original recording, I just made a disc copy.

Turned out it was her DVD player that must have gone wacky at the moment cause it played fine on my players and other people's players.
Been so long, I can't remember if I made her another copy or if she tried again to have it play fine?

Can someone please help me to program my VXX2967 remote for the 640?
I want to program it to use the TV controls, especially the input select, and volume controls would be helpful too. My romote didn't come with instructions. Most things are sortof self explanatory on the remote. Have really enjoyed using it instead of the remote that came with the 640.

We need to know what kind of TV you have in order to tell you the correct codes to enter on your remote..

Hey everyone,

I've probably burned a few hundred DVDs with my 640 since getting it December '06. Lately however whenever I burn it's been making some very strange, very uncomfortable grinding noises. The DVDs still burn fine, but it's slightly terrifying. Has anyone else experienced this?

If my DVR dies, I die.

Hey everyone,

I've probably burned a few hundred DVDs with my 640 since getting it December '06. Lately however whenever I burn it's been making some very strange, very uncomfortable grinding noises. The DVDs still burn fine, but it's slightly terrifying. Has anyone else experienced this?

If my DVR dies, I die.
huskylives,
I have that same problem, and sometimes it says "cannot complete copy". Sometimes just going thru the copy routine it does finally copy. I am going to send my unit in for repairs since I have an extended warranty. My best guess is that we have worn out the bearing in the drive. I purchased my unit about the same time, (June 06) and until lately has been going 24-7. Posts in this thread have discussed turning the unit off when not in use.

We need to know what kind of TV you have in order to tell you the correct codes to enter on your remote..

Thanks Sean,
I figured that you would know if you were still reading the thread!
I have a Sony XBR. KV-34XBR910 The Sony operating code in the manual lists Pioneer DVD player code as 752, but that would be for the Sony remote controlling the 640, right? And the 2967 does not have a "code set" button (that I can find).

I have a Sony XBR. KV-34XBR910 The Sony operating code in the manual lists Pioneer DVD player code as 752, but that would be for the Sony remote controlling the 640, right?That's right. Every manufacturer has their own peculiar way of setting their remote to work with someone else's equipment, so the Sony instructions aren't going to help you set up your Pioneer remote.

And the 2967 does not have a "code set" button (that I can find).The instructions are in the 633/533 manuals since those are the models that this remote came with. The instructions say:

"Press and hold down the CLEAR button, then enter the maker code for your TV. The LED indicator on the remote control lights." The accompanying table shows that the maker code for Sony TVs is "04".

For everyone's reference, here are all the maker codes for this remote. When there's more than one number you have to try each one until you find the one that works:

Aiwa - 38
Funai - 36
GE - 11, 28
General - 34
Goldstar - 10, 23
Grandiente - 30
Hitachi - 06, 24, 25, 32
Magnavox - 12, 29
Mitsubishi - 09
NEC - 37
Panasonic - 08, 22, 41
Philips - 07
Pioneer - 00, 35, 40, 44
RCA - 01, 15, 16, 17, 18
Sanyo - 14, 21
Sharp - 02, 19, 27
Sony - 04
Toshiba - 05, 26, 31, 43
JVC - 13, 33, 42
Zenith - 03, 20

That's right. Every manufacturer has their own peculiar way of setting their remote to work with someone else's equipment, so the Sony instructions aren't going to help you set up your Pioneer remote.

The instructions are in the 633/533 manuals since those are the models that this remote came with. The instructions say:

"Press and hold down the CLEAR button, then enter the maker code for your TV. The LED indicator on the remote control lights." The accompanying table shows that the maker code for Sony TVs is "04".

For everyone's reference, here are all the maker codes for this remote. When there's more than one number you have to try each one until you find the one that works:

Aiwa - 38
Funai - 36
GE - 11, 28
General - 34
Goldstar - 10, 23
Grandiente - 30
Hitachi - 06, 24, 25, 32
Magnavox - 12, 29
Mitsubishi - 09
NEC - 37
Panasonic - 08, 22, 41
Philips - 07
Pioneer - 00, 35, 40, 44
RCA - 01, 15, 16, 17, 18
Sanyo - 14, 21
Sharp - 02, 19, 27
Sony - 04
Toshiba - 05, 26, 31, 43
JVC - 13, 33, 42
Zenith - 03, 20

Thanks for listing the codes for TV's using the 633's remote. I guess I am out of luck now that I have a Vizio TV. I heard they're made by Samsung, which still doesn't help me out.

Oh well, it's not like I only have one remote control anyway.

Thanks Sean,
That 04 worked! (of course)
BTW only the light on the remote comes on, the 640 has no indication of input.
Now I don't have to have three controllers to switch without changing button input.

Suplex,
you will only have to put in 99 codes to get it right!
If you are lucky, less.

Hey everyone,

I've probably burned a few hundred DVDs with my 640 since getting it December '06. Lately however whenever I burn it's been making some very strange, very uncomfortable grinding noises. The DVDs still burn fine, but it's slightly terrifying. Has anyone else experienced this?

If my DVR dies, I die.

huskylives,
I have that same problem, and sometimes it says "cannot complete copy". Sometimes just going thru the copy routine it does finally copy. I am going to send my unit in for repairs since I have an extended warranty. My best guess is that we have worn out the bearing in the drive. I purchased my unit about the same time, (June 06) and until lately has been going 24-7. Posts in this thread have discussed turning the unit off when not in use.

I don't have, nor have ever used a Pio for any length of time, but do have a thought on your grinding noise. Not sure if you guys follow and Panny threads but that grinding is very common in Pannys that need the spindle cleaned.

In a Panny anyway the lower rubber part of the spindle(the part that holds the disc) gets a accumulation of dust on its surface. On a Panny anyway it is quite easy to clean the spindle by taking the cover off the unit and then off the optical drive itself. Maybe Citibear will comment on this possibility since it sounds like he rebuilds Pio DVDRs quite often. I just wanted to throw this idea out their as a possible cheap fix for your Pio.
A quick easy non damaging test I found to check for disc slippage on Panny DVDRs is to slightly moisten the inner clear hub of the DVD with saliva from a moistened finger. Gently rub the saliva to a thin coat, then insert the DVD. If the grinding goes away you have a dirty spindle which you should clean ASAP. If this does not quiet your drive you may have other problems.
I admit this is a rather unorthodox test but as long as you don't apply too much saliva I've never had it cause any other problems.
Might be worth a try on your Pios.

Suplex,
you will only have to put in 99 codes to get it right!
If you are lucky, less.

Looks like I lucked out. I only had to go as far as Code: 10 for Vizio. I guess it's a Goldstar?!?!

Basically. It's an LG.

I don't have, nor have ever used a Pio for any length of time, but do have a thought on your grinding noise. Not sure if you guys follow and Panny threads but that grinding is very common in Pannys that need the spindle cleaned.

In a Panny anyway the lower rubber part of the spindle(the part that holds the disc) gets a accumulation of dust on its surface. On a Panny anyway it is quite easy to clean the spindle by taking the cover off the unit and then off the optical drive itself. Maybe Citibear will comment on this possibility since it sounds like he rebuilds Pio DVDRs quite often. I just wanted to throw this idea out their as a possible cheap fix for your Pio.
A quick easy non damaging test I found to check for disc slippage on Panny DVDRs is to slightly moisten the inner clear hub of the DVD with saliva from a moistened finger. Gently rub the saliva to a thin coat, then insert the DVD. If the grinding goes away you have a dirty spindle which you should clean ASAP. If this does not quiet your drive you may have other problems.
I admit this is a rather unorthodox test but as long as you don't apply too much saliva I've never had it cause any other problems.
Might be worth a try on your Pios.

Definitely worth a try! I have an antediluvian Sony CD boombox brought back from Japan in the late '80s whose CD player started making those telltale grinding noises a while back until it finally just stopped playing CDs. No great loss, but it does have a chassis, amp and speaker system built like a tank so it's perfect for the family room where it's subjected to a constant regimen of abuse at the hands of kids.

A bit of isopropyl alcohol on a Q-Tip on the lower rubber part of the spindle jjeff describes and five minutes to dry off breathed new life into the old girl and now she plays CDs fine. So it's worth a shot on non-Pannies, in fact on any CD or DVD drive that's moaning and grinding in its death throes.

I don't have, nor have ever used a Pio for any length of time, but do have a thought on your grinding noise. Not sure if you guys follow and Panny threads but that grinding is very common in Pannys that need the spindle cleaned.

In a Panny anyway the lower rubber part of the spindle(the part that holds the disc) gets a accumulation of dust on its surface. On a Panny anyway it is quite easy to clean the spindle by taking the cover off the unit and then off the optical drive itself. Maybe Citibear will comment on this possibility since it sounds like he rebuilds Pio DVDRs quite often. I just wanted to throw this idea out their as a possible cheap fix for your Pio.
A quick easy non damaging test I found to check for disc slippage on Panny DVDRs is to slightly moisten the inner clear hub of the DVD with saliva from a moistened finger. Gently rub the saliva to a thin coat, then insert the DVD. If the grinding goes away you have a dirty spindle which you should clean ASAP. If this does not quiet your drive you may have other problems.
I admit this is a rather unorthodox test but as long as you don't apply too much saliva I've never had it cause any other problems.
Might be worth a try on your Pios.

I tried that, and have not heard the noise for a few days since trying the saliva on disk. ( I don't do it for every disk, just occaisionally) And have not had "cannot copy" message since. Maybe I will postphone that trip to the repair shop. I'm like huskylives , If my DVR dies, I die. I was considering purchasing anoter unit while it was in the shop! Huskylives, did you try the "fix"? Thanks for the tip jjeff

If the grinding goes away you have a dirty spindle which you should clean ASAP.

The saliva method should be considered as a diagnostic litmus test or at best a stopgap measure, so as jjeff says, the treatment is a spindle cleaning.

The saliva method should be considered as a diagnostic litmus test or at best a stopgap measure, so as jjeff says, the treatment is a spindle cleaning.

I'm a little hesitant about taking the cover off, (and the lens) I'm okay with my ability with such things, just don't want to cause other problems.

I've never had a Pio apart(maybe Citibear can comment) but on Pannys their are only 5 small phillips screws on the drive cover and you gently lift the cover back and up. Set the cover down in the same upright position. The first time I cleaned a spindle I tipped the cover up side down and a plastic piece moved which gave me a hard time getting the cover back on.
I never touch the lens anymore. I did this once to one of my first DVD players(a nice vertical Philips 12vdc/110vac unit) it never worked again:( and I was careful since I was used to cleaning VCR video heads. Truthfully the lens never looks dirty anyway. If it did I might just use my cleaning DVD which has small fine brushes.
As plplplpl said the saliva test is more just that, a test. If it causes your DVDs to work then you should really clean the spindle. Truth be told though I do have one DVDR that has many components stacked on top of it all having many wires attached to them(it's also in a awful to get at place above a desk etc.). This unit I still use the saliva method before I finalize with that machine and it always works but truthfully I don't use it that much anymore. One of these days:rolleyes: I'm going to get around to cleaning it's spindle, one of these days:D

Coincidentally my own Pioneer 640 started making a loud whine during high speed burning a couple weeks ago. I'm so not in the mood to address it in the stifling heat of a New York City summer that I've tried to pretend I don't hear it, but I'm going to have to do something soon.

It does seem primarily related to the speed rating of the blank discs: it is loudly audible using 16x Sony DVD-R, barely audible with 8x TY DVD-R, and completely inaudible using slowish Maxell DVD-RAM discs. I'm guessing all the previous posters are correct and its a spindle-grip issue, spinning the disc at 16x probably causes noisy slippage.

I've never had this come up with older Pioneers that used Pioneer burners, those would just up and die altogether by failing to recognize any media. Sometimes I could fix those temporarily by removing the drive, opening it, and cleaning the lens and spindle. Those Pioneer burners are fairly easy to remove from the chassis and pretty simple to open up and clean. Unfortunately the otherwise-fantastic Sony burner in the 640 and later Pioneers is hopelessly embedded in the recorder chassis and damn near impossible to get at, and even if you can the burner is all but hermetically sealed.

I'm not sure how we're gonna tackle this one as a DIY, folks: it may be the Pio 640 and later need to be brought in for professional service. I'm going to wait until my 640 actually fails to burn or exhibits another major burner issue besides noise in high speed copy mode: at that point, if I'm ambitious enough (and crazy enough) I may try to disassemble it. Meantime if anyone else accomplishes this, please report your results back to the rest of us :D!

[QUOTE=CitiBear;
It does seem primarily related to the speed rating of the blank discs: it is loudly audible using 16x Sony DVD-R, barely audible with 8x TY DVD-R, and completely inaudible using slowish Maxell DVD-RAM discs. I'm guessing all the previous posters are correct and its a spindle-grip issue, spinning the disc at 16x probably causes noisy slippage.


That is interesting, I had noise with Sony and Maxwell disks. When I bought DVD-R 16X "NX" from Circuit City on sale, and tried them the noise was quiet for awhile. I assumed the disks had something to do with the noise. So then I had to pay full price $30 for the next batch to alievate the noise. Now I know the problem, I am on the fence to repair it myself or send it in. I have a shipping label for the 640, but don't want to let it go! Maybe I will wait until it refuses to record.

Just as a heads up/reminder to anyone who may be considering disassembly of their Pioneer 640 to clean a noisy spindle:

The 640 and later units are completely redesigned and have nothing in common with earlier Pioneer DVRs aside from the operating system. All pre-2006 Pioneers use slightly modified off-the-shelf Pioneer PC burners which are rather easily removed from the recorder for cleaning. Beginning with the 640, Pioneer recorders became a co-production between Pioneer and Sony. The internals and encoders are somewhat different between Sonys and Pioneers, the Pioneers are far more complex. Both Sony and Pioneer DVD/HDD recorders now use the same superb Sony-supplied burner, however Pioneer heavily modifies this burner, removing its simple Sony controller board and replacing it with a highly condensed Pioneer DVR motherboard which includes burner control, video encoding, and central processing for the entire unit. Instead of having a discrete burner module, Pioneer now puts the whole shootin' match into the burner, for reasons known only to themselves: I can't imagine it makes professional repair any less daunting.

This whole burner assembly looks VERY tricky to remove from the recorder, and since it has a very expensive motherboard piggybacked into it you need to treat it with due respect. Unless you are VERY sure of your repair skills, you probably should not chance a DIY repair on it: its a bigger risk than it is with older Pioneers. We also have no data yet on whether removing/disassembling the burner will trigger a DRM reset procedure different from the older units.

Be careful out there!

Thanks for the heads up Citibear. I'll watch it before suggesting a "simple" spindle cleaning on a 640 or newer Pio.
BTW which older model Pios triggered the DRM reset? It sounds like with Pios old or new one should consider spindle cleaning a professional job and not really a DIY.

I was also thinking today maybe the design on Pannys that make them easy to disassemble to clean is what lets the dust in, in the first place. Pios closed design may make it hard for spindle cleaning but since it's closed it makes spindle cleaning less needed? Just a thought anyway.

To answer jjeff, just as there are Panasonic "cultists" who will stop at nothing to self-service their beloved older units, there are Pioneer "cultists" such as myself who think nothing of obtaining the elusive Pioneer service disc and service remote required for just about *any* DIY Pio servicing. Depending on your point of view and particular problem, a vintage Pioneer can be easier to service than a Panasonic or Toshiba. For example, Pioneers are not at all particular about replacement hard drives- any 3.5" IDE drive will suit. And if you can find a good Pioneer PC burner that was current when your DVR was made, its fairly simple to replace/repair a bad burner.

The tradeoff is the damn service remote and service disc which are absolutely required to reset the DRM system in all Pioneers when you replace their hard drives or burners- without these two service items, you're hosed. Its a toss up whats more annoying: having to locate the Pioneer service items, or having to locate one of the two only known drives that will work properly in a Toshiba or Panny, yada yada yada. They're all a pain to repair, one way or the other.

The Pioneer 510 (2003) and 520 (2004) will not let you take out their burners or hard drives for cleaning without using the service accessories to perform a DRM reset. The 531-533-633 (2005) will let you remove and replace their *original* drives without having to do a DRM reset: the recorder remembers what was inside it and recognizes it when you put it back, so you can clean their burners without much trouble. But because of the "embedded" design, and because none of their burners have begun failing until now, no one has reported what happens when you remove the burner from a Pioneer 640 (2006) or later model. Anything is possible, since it appears you can't pull the burner without taking the motherboard with it. I wouldn't try it unless you have the service remote and most recent service disc on hand just in case.

Citibear,

Thanks a bunch to you (and everyone else) for your responses. The question now is, what should I do? I just had my first "cannot complete this process" message pop up last night while burning. I started the process again and it worked fine, but still made those awful, terrifying noises. I just don't know what route to take. Should I just wait it out until something really bad happens? Should I take it now to a professional? I'm skeptical about that just because I feel even a professional might not be familiar with all the complications surrounding these new Pioneers, and the fact that they probably haven't seen many of them come across their desk before.

I'm just very nervous about this whole thing -- I researched DVRs for two months before settling on the 640 and it is exactly everything that I wanted and hoped for. I'd gladly buy an updated model if mine ever completely dies, but it doesn't look like Pioneer even makes DVRs anymore -- no one is, really, except for Tivo.

Would it help to try calling Pioneer customer support?

To huskylives, I would say try calling Pioneer first. Ask them if they have a "flat fee" service option for their 640 recorders, similar to Panasonic and Toshiba who charge $130. If they agree to a similar option, let Pioneer service it: they have all the tools and parts. If they don't have a flat fee plan, and can't promise the repair will be under $200, then don't let them fix it: the price is too high compared to the cost of a new recorder. In Canada the 2007 model 650 is on closeout special at a dozen electronics chains for $299, and the latest 2008 model 450 goes for not much more.

More than likely your burner just has some dust in it, on the spindle grip and/or the lens. Try some TY 8x-speed DVD-R media in it: my noisy 640 quiets WAY down when I burn to this and it may work for you: the problem does seem speed-related. Yours is the first report I've seen of a 640 giving the "can't complete process" alert: in older Pioneers this was almost *always* due to a change in dye formula in the blanks used, switching brands usually helped for quite awhile. When it wasn't the dye it was a weakened or dirty laser. Of course those units used twitchy Pioneer-made drives, the burner in the 640 is a pretty tough Sony, and we just don't have enough reports yet to know what the typical failure causes might be.

The easiest and safest route is Pioneer service but if that proves astronomically expensive, consider buying another recorder and holding onto your 640 until some reports emerge on how to self-service the burner. Even then it may be difficult, other than opening it to clean the lens and spindle there isn't much we can do: the burner is a heavily modified model with no equivalent off-the-shelf PC burner we can buy cheaply to cannibalize for parts. I feel your pain, mine is getting noisier by the day...:(

By the way everyone, I'm new here and would like to report a great last minute deal. I went to the new Future Shop in Brossard (DIX 30) and bought an open box Pioneer 650H-K for only $269.00 (last one). I had gone about one month ago (when the new store opened) and they had 3 boxes (unopened) selling for $299.00 each (probably liquidation sale, they usually do that in the new stores to attract customers). These great units are being replaced by the 660H-K which sell for over $500. I haven't used the unit that much yet, but even though it being an open box, it still comes with a one year guarantee.

I'm curious to see if anyone has the 650H-K, and the experience of owning one long-term (or short term). These newer units (550, 650, 560, 660) have SATA hard drives, thus the disks may have some advantages over the previous EIDE ones. Any comments would be appreciated concerning these newer units. Thanks in advance.

I don't have, nor have ever used a Pio for any length of time, but do have a thought on your grinding noise. Not sure if you guys follow and Panny threads but that grinding is very common in Pannys that need the spindle cleaned.

In a Panny anyway the lower rubber part of the spindle(the part that holds the disc) gets a accumulation of dust on its surface. On a Panny anyway it is quite easy to clean the spindle by taking the cover off the unit and then off the optical drive itself. Maybe Citibear will comment on this possibility since it sounds like he rebuilds Pio DVDRs quite often. I just wanted to throw this idea out their as a possible cheap fix for your Pio.
A quick easy non damaging test I found to check for disc slippage on Panny DVDRs is to slightly moisten the inner clear hub of the DVD with saliva from a moistened finger. Gently rub the saliva to a thin coat, then insert the DVD. If the grinding goes away you have a dirty spindle which you should clean ASAP. If this does not quiet your drive you may have other problems.
I admit this is a rather unorthodox test but as long as you don't apply too much saliva I've never had it cause any other problems.
Might be worth a try on your Pios.

Since trying this "band aid" for the first few disks, have not heard any more noise for a hundred or so DVD's, and no copy errors. However, today made 3 coasters in backing up a disk. No noise, just falure to copy. (Maxell DVD-R disks) Anyone else tried this temporary "fix?"

I'm curious to see if anyone has the 650H-K, and the experience of owning one long-term (or short term). These newer units (550, 650, 560, 660) have SATA hard drives, thus the disks may have some advantages over the previous EIDE ones. Any comments would be appreciated concerning these newer units. Thanks in advance.

I've owned the model 450 for a few months and recently acquired another "floor model" very cheaply. Internally the layout is even MORE compressed and complicated than than on the 640: anyone with an x50 or x60 Pioneer should not even THINK about self-servicing the burner unless the unit really is disposable to you. The 640 has the recorder's modular motherboard attached to the Sony burner, in the 450 and later models the burner chassis is *wrapped around* a more complex motherboard that includes an additional heatsink and the HDMI chips/socket. One wrong move trying to work with the burner and you could wreck the motherboard. The burner itself is more-or-less the same one used in the 640. It uses a custom ribbon connector so theres no way of knowing if its on a SATA or EIDE bus (the hard drive uses standard PC SATA cabling).

One thing I've noticed with the 450 and later models (and confirmed by posts I've seen at several European AV forums): the SATA connections from hard drive to motherboard are very flakey. They are prone to loosening or oxidation, especially during shipment. If you suddenly cannot access the hard drive in your Pioneer x50 or x60, try unplugging the drives SATA cable and remove the entire drive with its attached bracket. Put it back in a few minutes later, being careful not to tighten the bracket screws too much. Make sure the SATA connections are secure. Then try using the recorder again: your HDD should be available once more.

Forgive me if this issue has been brought up and resolved in the 106 pages so far, but the remote for my DVR-640H died, most likely due to battery leakage (from the original supplied batteries). I bought a Universal but am unable to access the home menu as the "menu" button wants to act as a "play" button instead. Is there a way around ordering a new remote?

Before you get a new remote, try a Q-tip dipped in baking soda dissolved in water (weak solution, not too much). Hold so water won't drip into guts of remote, and rub around the battery contacts and springs several times with fresh, wet Q-tips. Dry well with COOL hair dryer on low before testing (just air if poss.). Might be worth a try?

I'm curious to see if anyone has the 650H-K, and the experience of owning one long-term (or short term). These newer units (550, 650, 560, 660) have SATA hard drives, thus the disks may have some advantages over the previous EIDE ones. Any comments would be appreciated concerning these newer units. Thanks in advance.

I also bought a 650 a month or so ago at Future Shop for 269.00 - also their last one apparently. I have a 640 which I use a lot and wanted another one with more hard drive space. So far the 650 seems to be very similar to the 640 in operation - only obvious differences I've noticed so far are the colour, the size of the hard drive and slightly different menu options. I have only recorded a few shows and made only a couple of discs, so it's hard to tell yet if there is any significant difference in the things I use it for. Once the new tv season starts I will be using it more and will know better then.

Just a brief update on the current status of my 640: I've decided to just wait it out and see what happens. I'm clearly not capable of performing surgery for myself and haven't had any problems with burning since that time or two I mentioned earlier. As long as it's just being noisy, I'm going to just pretend I don't hear it and hope it holds out for another year.

That said, this whole thing has made me realize that my baby won't last forever and some day I might need to get a new one. There's just one problem with that -- here in the U.S., it's nearly impossible to get a Pioneer. I've only found a few suppliers that carry it for $600 -- way out of my price range, and irritating after seeing people have been picking them up for under $300 elsewhere. (I believe I spent $350 or so on the 640.) My question is, while I'm not actively shopping for a new DVR now, are there any places in Canada where I could go to to order a newer one when the time comes?

Also, does anyone know why consumer DVRs without the Tivo brand are getting harder and harder to find in the U.S.?

Also, does anyone know why consumer DVRs without the Tivo brand are getting harder and harder to find in the U.S.?

Because, if they include a tuner, at leaset one of them must be an ATSC tuner, which means extra cost in providing two tuners (for those who still need NTSC) and conversion of DTV and HDTV signals down to analog format or provide a way to burn HDTV to Blu-Ray, which currently isn't economically practical for most people either. Of course, the mfr could just dump an ATSC tuner in the box to meet the letter of the law, and disable any recording functions from it, but that would make for a lot of unhappy consumers.

(...) Also, does anyone know why consumer DVRs without the Tivo brand are getting harder and harder to find in the U.S.?

Hoo, boy- very hot topic: there are some half-dozen other threads devoted to exactly this subject;)! Its a dead horse we've all pounded into mush by now, including me. Suffice to say a combination of Hollywood maneuverings with cable/satellite vendors along with near-total consumer apathy towards DVD recording has killed off the product category. Going back five years, nearly half of all DVD/HDD recorders sold were usually returned to the store as "too complicated to use"- but at least in those days the units could sell for $500-600 and profits would absorb the cost of returns. Today, forget it: margins are razor thin and there is simply no buyer interest whatsoever. The mfrs have all pulled out of the USA and the trend has just spread to Canada with Panasonic leaving this summer. Basically the only people who want the damn things are those who post to this forum: maybe a couple hundred buyers in all of North America.

Best to get a backup Pioneer now, while they can still be had, who knows what next year will bring? Schmooze someone in Canada to buy a 550 or 560 for you, or pick up an open box DVR 450 from the more reputable Canadian dealers on eBay. The 450 is the same as a 640, minus the USB port but adding an HDMI port and slightly better encoder (12 bit vs 10 bit). Or put another way, a 450 is a 550 with 160GB HDD and no USB/DV ports. These sell for roughly $275-325 delivered to USA. There, now that I've hit this poor horse again, let me be contradictory and suggest maybe no one else follow me: this Pio 640 thread is long enough with plenty of digressions already. It might be better to continue in one of the "why no more dvd/hdd recorders?" threads.:D

Suffice to say a combination of Hollywood maneuverings with cable/satellite vendors........and "TiVo maneuverings". ;)

My question is, while I'm not actively shopping for a new DVR now, are there any places in Canada where I could go to to order a newer one when the time comes?


Best Buy Canada, and Future Shop have them. We have another thread discussing this very thing.

This subject just came up again in a Philips thread and it might be worthwhile repeating it here.

I did some tests awhile ago with my Philips 3575 and Pio 640 to see how the Pio would do in recording widescreen (WS) digital programs delivered thru a line input from a digital-tunered DVDR like the 3575. (This would be the same as using one of the digital converter boxes people are buying now.)

Those tests are reported here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016350), but the thing of interest to a Pio user might be something I ran into while doing the WS recording tests: the Pio "TV Screen Size" setting in the Playback menu affects the aspect ratio of WS programs copied from the HDD to a DVD.

Most people with the older Pios might run into this situation now that many are getting digital converter boxes, which can deliver digital WS programs to the HDD of the older analog Pios.

Before you start a Copy from HDD to DVD of a WS program, make sure your "TV Screen Size" is set properly.

From my tests, these WS copies will retain all playback aspect controls when played in the Pio but not when playing from another brand, like a Panny... best I can remember now.

I understand that you can copy a show from HD to DVD-RW initialized with VR mode so that you can copy it back to HD at high speed. If you do that and then re-edit on the HD, can you then copy the same show to a video mode DVD for more universality? In other words once in VR mode can you reconvert to Video mode?

I understand that you can copy a show from HD to DVD-RW initialized with VR mode so that you can copy it back to HD at high speed. If you do that and then re-edit on the HD, can you then copy the same show to a video mode DVD for more universality? In other words once in VR mode can you reconvert to Video mode?
Yes, the only restriction using VR-mode is that some lower quality recordings can't be high-speed copied. See bottom notes on pg 83 of manual (basically LP/MN9-15, and LP/MN1-15 widescreen recordings, can't be HS copied).

The VR-mode initialization is the default mode for -RW discs, so unless you change that in Setup, you'll always get -RW VR-mode discs.

I ran my Pios with HDD in VR-mode for months (as a test) with only those low-res HS copy retrictions. That's when I found the ability to high-speed copy Unfinalized OR Finalized VR-mode discs from HDD>DVD>HDD, then on to Video-mode discs.

I understand that you can copy a show from HD to DVD-RW initialized with VR mode so that you can copy it back to HD at high speed. If you do that and then re-edit on the HD, can you then copy the same show to a video mode DVD for more universality? In other words once in VR mode can you reconvert to Video mode?

Wajo's correct, I do that all the time. But, I would just point out one little related oddity, in case you run into it. When you make a copy list, to copy from the HDD to a disc, and then burn a disc, you cannot use that same copy list to burn a second disc in a mode different (VR or Video mode) from the first disc you burned. You will have to recreate the copy list, with a disc of the mode you wish to use in the DVDR.

I make discs with lots of titles on them, and I like to make VR copies as well, so if I ever want to make discs with just some of those titles, I can just copy individual titles back to the HDD. But, I also want Video Mode copies of the same discs. So, I have to make my copy lists twice.

Thanks I made all my recordings video mode but now I will save all shows to VR mode on DVD-RW's to conserve space knowing I can always copy them back to the HD to make video mode DVD's later.

Of course I will not finalize my VR mode DVD's so I can use the CM skip on them.

That's when I found the ability to high-speed copy Unfinalized OR Finalized VR-mode discs from HDD>DVD>HDD, then on to Video-mode discs.
I just got the newer model (660H) and was wondering how I would do the operation above. I assume that HDD recording format should be in VR mode.

So a few questions:

1) What are the steps to doing VR -> Video via the method above?

2) With VR mode I understand that you can use Frame Accurate Editing to remove commercial breaks and the like. So you would edit the particular recording before you copy on to DVD? (you can just roll this one up with the question above if it fits better)

Thanks a lot

I just got the newer model (660H) and was wondering how I would do the operation above. I assume that HDD recording format should be in VR mode.

So a few questions:

1) What are the steps to doing VR -> Video via the method above?

2) With VR mode I understand that you can use Frame Accurate Editing to remove commercial breaks and the like. So you would edit the particular recording before you copy on to DVD? (you can just roll this one up with the question above if it fits better)
See this post/thread for some info on the process (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=691617&highlight=Pio+VR)... don't remember how much detail on the procedure is in the thread, buit it's really the same as you use your Pio normally.

I ran my HDD on VR-mode (Video Mode Off) for ~3 months and everything was normal-normal, except for that previously mentioned inability to high-speed copy (HSC) lower-rez titles (LP/MN9-15).

When/if you want to put title(s) on disc for later compilation or editing, initialize a DVD-R in VR mode, using the Disc Setup menu, and high-speed copy (HSC) the title(s) to the DVD. DVD-RW discs should be auto-initialized in VR-mode unless you change the default in the setup menu.

The title(s) can be normal Video mode w/HDD in Video Mode On, or can contain VR-mode frame accurate edits, or could come from a VR-mode HDD... I don't think any of those things matter... it's all in the format of the disc you offload to.

When you want to work with that title again, HSC the VR-mode DVD, either unfinalized or finalized, back to the HDD.

When you eventually want a final DVD copy in normal Video mode, just insert a normal disc w/o initialization and HSC it to the DVD as normal.

It's been a couple of years since I worked with VR mode intensely, but I also did many tests on retaining frame-accurate edits, and I don't think they are retained when you use HSC to create the final (normal) Video-mode disc... you have to do a real-time copy to preserve your frame-accurate edit points.

So, I think the primary benefit of VR-mode -R/RW discs is the ability to HSC back and forth from HDD>DVD>HDD, even if the discs are finalized.

Thanks for the link and explanation. The matrix/chart in the manual isn't the greatest thing ever. So it all really boils down to the disc you use which sounds great. Although the real time copy on frame accurate edits is kind of a downer.

There isn't a way to remove commercials or parts you don't want in Video mode correct or is that just a matter of using Video mode compatible editing?

Thanks for the link and explanation. The matrix/chart in the manual isn't the greatest thing ever. So it all really boils down to the disc you use which sounds great. Although the real time copy on frame accurate edits is kind of a downer.

There isn't a way to remove commercials or parts you don't want in Video mode correct or is that just a matter of using Video mode compatible editing?
You can use Erase Section to delete portions of a title in Video Mode or VR mode, depending on which you select before the edit. If you choose Video mode, you'll see the frame counter during your edits automatically take you to 00 or 15 frame points. If you've chosen Frame Accurate (VR), you can move frame-by-frame manually and cut at any frame.

See this post/thread for some info on the process (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=691617&highlight=Pio+VR)... don't remember how much detail on the procedure is in the thread, buit it's really the same as you use your Pio normally.
This url is freezing up and failing to load for me at the moment.
[EDIT: Finally got the page, but on like the 22nd. attempt.]

It's been a couple of years since I worked with VR mode intensely, but I also did many tests on retaining frame-accurate edits, and I don't think they are retained when you use HSC to create the final (normal) Video-mode disc... you have to do a real-time copy to preserve your frame-accurate edit points.

I continue to use VR mode a lot. Careful selection of edit points can minimize "drift" or excess frames left over whenever you finally take it to Video Mode, to the point where it's not much of an issue. Or at least that has been my experience.

Hi all, DVR-640H owner here, hope you don't mind me reactivating this thread...it's been incredibly useful, I've lurked here for quite some time, having read the reports before purchasing this wonderful recorder. It's been over a year now of successful use. I do have several questions now though...

...the 'grinding' noise...I've used Sony 16x DVD-Rs lately (got a pretty good deal for 100 at Best Buy), and during burning, occasionally I will hear a grinding noise...sounds kinda like a grinding 'purr' if you can imagine that. Happens once in a while, but it goes away. I've burned quite a few disks...no problems until recently.

First, I had a burnlist with 30 or so items, where for memory purposes I had some on high-speed recording, some on EP, some on LP...that disc 'failed to record' midway through, and so I lost the data sesson for that disc. I loaded a second DVD-R, and modified the burnlist to have high-speed only, and that completed successfully. On a subsequent session, I had the EP recording on the same disc, and that was fine too. I assumed that the failure was due in part to having multiple modes/complex burnlist? Or was it the 'grinding' issue?

Second, I had a multi-session DVD-R inside the 640, and recently we installed an HDTV box...during which the 640 was unplugged and moved (with the DVD inside). When I turned the 640 back on, it was unable to read the DVD. It loaded the disc as "DVD-R Video" but says "Can't Play" when I try to access it. Any way I can recover the disc? It was not finalized. I am thinking of some PC disk utilities...it would be great if I could at least get a look at the playlist titles on that disc, to know which recordings were on there. I transferred some recordings to that disc and deleted them off my HDD already...

Incidentally, I loaded a dozen other DVD-R Video discs on there, same brand etc. and the 640 read them fine. I also burned a new disc on there and it read fine. Any suggestions on how I can recover the disc? I'm guessing somehow it was not finalized, perhaps session ended improperly or something, power loss etc.

As for having just gotten an HDTV box:

This subject just came up again in a Philips thread and it might be worthwhile repeating it here.

I did some tests awhile ago with my Philips 3575 and Pio 640 to see how the Pio would do in recording widescreen (WS) digital programs delivered thru a line input from a digital-tunered DVDR like the 3575. (This would be the same as using one of the digital converter boxes people are buying now.)

Those tests are reported here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016350), but the thing of interest to a Pio user might be something I ran into while doing the WS recording tests: the Pio "TV Screen Size" setting in the Playback menu affects the aspect ratio of WS programs copied from the HDD to a DVD.

Most people with the older Pios might run into this situation now that many are getting digital converter boxes, which can deliver digital WS programs to the HDD of the older analog Pios.

Before you start a Copy from HDD to DVD of a WS program, make sure your "TV Screen Size" is set properly.

From my tests, these WS copies will retain all playback aspect controls when played in the Pio but not when playing from another brand, like a Panny... best I can remember now.

Great advice, thank you for suggesting it!! I will be looking into this aspect when I burn my first recordings off of HD channels soon.

And:

Hoo, boy- very hot topic: there are some half-dozen other threads devoted to exactly this subject;)! Its a dead horse we've all pounded into mush by now, including me. Suffice to say a combination of Hollywood maneuverings with cable/satellite vendors along with near-total consumer apathy towards DVD recording has killed off the product category. Going back five years, nearly half of all DVD/HDD recorders sold were usually returned to the store as "too complicated to use"- but at least in those days the units could sell for $500-600 and profits would absorb the cost of returns. Today, forget it: margins are razor thin and there is simply no buyer interest whatsoever. The mfrs have all pulled out of the USA and the trend has just spread to Canada with Panasonic leaving this summer. Basically the only people who want the damn things are those who post to this forum: maybe a couple hundred buyers in all of North America.

Best to get a backup Pioneer now, while they can still be had, who knows what next year will bring? Schmooze someone in Canada to buy a 550 or 560 for you, or pick up an open box DVR 450 from the more reputable Canadian dealers on eBay. The 450 is the same as a 640, minus the USB port but adding an HDMI port and slightly better encoder (12 bit vs 10 bit). Or put another way, a 450 is a 550 with 160GB HDD and no USB/DV ports. These sell for roughly $275-325 delivered to USA. There, now that I've hit this poor horse again, let me be contradictory and suggest maybe no one else follow me: this Pio 640 thread is long enough with plenty of digressions already. It might be better to continue in one of the "why no more dvd/hdd recorders?" threads.:D


Wow, I did not know this. Having used VCR recording and editing for years, I have found the transition to the Pioneer 640 a breeze and LOVE the features and editing on it. Plus the saved space from using DVDs! Is Pioneer leaving the market??? How about internationally?

I also noticed a "grinding purr" noise when my 640 and 540 burned Sony 16x media, it started earlier this summer as each unit hit the two-and-a-half-years in use benchmark. Since they never failed to burn I decided to wait it out and not try any servicing unless/until they started rejecting media. Strangely, the noise stopped as randomly as it began: after a couple months of summer, I noticed last week the grinding noise had completely stopped! It may have been related to humidity or temperature of the room, which in a New York summer ranges all over the map as A/C is turned on and off.

The unreadable partly recorded DVD got damaged when you moved the recorder with that disc inside: never do this. One slight jolt and the disc can get a near-invisible scratch that kills it. Also, leaving unfinalized DVD-R sitting around is a very bad idea now that average media quality has become so poor its a miracle they work at all. Your 640 has a hard drive: use it for everything until you're ready to high-speed copy and immediately finalize the DVD. If you MUST use multi-seesion discs , switch to DVD+R/W or better yet DVD-RAM, these contain more expensive stable dyes that have not been cheapened like the loss-leader write-once DVD-Rs, and they react better to being left unfinalized. Personally I find the RAM much easier to use than DVD R/W in my 640, although the RAM discs cost more and spin slower. I use them when I want move videos between recorders or temporarily offload titles from the hard drive.

Thx for the reply CitiBear!

Interesting that the noise can go away...I was thinking about the 'saliva test' as mentioned above but in lieu of a more serious solution, or major problems, I am holding off.

Thx for the tip about moving the recorder w/o DVDs inside...I will be more careful in the future. Still hope to recover the data somehow, maybe professionally later on...oh well.

Thx also for the tip on unfinalized stuff. Must finalize ASAP. I have experienced the perils of leaving media over time--have already dropped +/-RWs for PC use due to too many RW problems over time.

I actually researched the DVD+/-R when I got the 640, same conclusion as you found, the DVD+R is better quality. However for the 640 that I have, DVD+RW cannot record EP quality programs in high speed! Considering that I can usually fit 8 episodes of a 45-min show on 1 DVD, I am forced to use DVD-Rs so that I can high-speed record those eps on there in 15 min or so, rather than real-time recording which would take hours and hours for a DVD+R. On SP mode it's fine, but then only 2 hours can fit into a standard DVD.

Lastly, I am really surprised to learn that the DVR-640 has been discontinued and replaced by the $500+ DVR-650! Wow, glad I got the 640 at a more reasonable price. Too bad it's not on the market any longer, I was considering getting another.

Thx for the reply CitiBear!

Interesting that the noise can go away...I was thinking about the 'saliva test' as mentioned above but in lieu of a more serious solution, or major problems, I am holding off.



Before you try the saliva test first look at the clear center part of the discs that grind. It they were slipping they will have fine circular scratches or look scuffed. They should look like a new disc, perfectly clear.

First, I had a burnlist with 30 or so items, where for memory purposes I had some on high-speed recording, some on EP, some on LP...that disc 'failed to record' midway through, and so I lost the data sesson for that disc. I loaded a second DVD-R, and modified the burnlist to have high-speed only, and that completed successfully. On a subsequent session, I had the EP recording on the same disc, and that was fine too. I assumed that the failure was due in part to having multiple modes/complex burnlist? Or was it the 'grinding' issue?

Either, or perhaps both. My experience (more with the 520 than the 640, since I had learned from my mistakes on the 520 by the time I got the 640) was that the larger or more complex the Copy List became -- and this translated to both the # of titles and in particular the # of edits -- the greater the risk of a "Copy Err." failure on burning. (This may or may not have some connection to the age of the burner and how much "mileage" you've racked up on it.) But I came to adopt a 'Less is More' / 'Keep it Simple' approach to burns, and the failures remained few and far between. Using the best media also improves your odds. Nowadays, that pretty much comes down to TYGO2 or TYGO3. The once reliable Verbatim has become kinda iffy. Most of the rest out there is junk.

Not sure what to say re your use of EP mode. I find most 2-hour programs quite acceptable in SP, but rarely go any lower than that. (Otherwise, my recording default is MN-26.)
If better quality seems to be required, I'd go to a higher MN for burning to a dual-layer Verbatim.


Second, I had a multi-session DVD-R inside the 640, and recently we installed an HDTV box...during which the 640 was unplugged and moved (with the DVD inside). When I turned the 640 back on, it was unable to read the DVD. It loaded the disc as "DVD-R Video" but says "Can't Play" when I try to access it. Any way I can recover the disc? It was not finalized. I am thinking of some PC disk utilities...it would be great if I could at least get a look at the playlist titles on that disc, to know which recordings were on there. I transferred some recordings to that disc and deleted them off my HDD already...

Incidentally, I loaded a dozen other DVD-R Video discs on there, same brand etc. and the 640 read them fine. I also burned a new disc on there and it read fine. Any suggestions on how I can recover the disc? I'm guessing somehow it was not finalized, perhaps session ended improperly or something, power loss etc.

For this and for other disc disaster situations, I think it is well worth investing the 40 or 50 bucks to get a license to ISOBUSTER. If anything stands a chance of recovering whatever may be on that dvd, this program is most likely it. In regard to stuff that is unfinalized but undamaged, I've heard that Cyberlink Power Producer may have the ability to extract VR-format files you've recorded to disc, but I haven't gotten around to checking that program out myself. Certainly, we could use a good solution like that for when you come across such disks, but the recorder that made them is not available, so there is no opportunity to finalize them. ISOBUSTER may have a trial version available, don't know about the other one.


Wow, I did not know this. Having used VCR recording and editing for years, I have found the transition to the Pioneer 640 a breeze and LOVE the features and editing on it. Plus the saved space from using DVDs! Is Pioneer leaving the market??? How about internationally?

Pioneer pulled the plug on DVDRs in the U.S. market in 2007, and is not expected to return. The PVR boxes supplied by sat and cable companies overwhelmingly dominate what demand there is for recording devices today, even though they do NOT offer the ability to archive material off of their hard drives.


Lastly, I am really surprised to learn that the DVR-640 has been discontinued and replaced by the $500+ DVR-650! Wow, glad I got the 640 at a more reasonable price. Too bad it's not on the market any longer, I was considering getting another.

Some reports have this being perhaps the last year for the Pioneer models still being sold in Canada. They seem to be a mixed bag vs. the 640, but may be a case of "get 'em while you can", if you want one. I got my 640 in '07 from a major e-tailer, at a very good price, with an extended warranty thrown in free as a promo. I could have bought two given that deal, and probably should have.

Before you try the saliva test first look at the clear center part of the discs that grind. It they were slipping they will have fine circular scratches or look scuffed. They should look like a new disc, perfectly clear.

Thx for the suggestion. I did take a look, the center area remains clear, but there are several small 'concentric rings' that are not there on the new Sony 16x DVD-Rs that I use. I guess there is some dust after all inside--I typically have 'clean' hands before each time I put the disc in, but I guess that's not enough...'clean room' standards it seems? At least the burning has worked alright as of the last time--just completed finalizing about a dozen DVD-R discs.

Either, or perhaps both. My experience (more with the 520 than the 640, since I had learned from my mistakes on the 520 by the time I got the 640) was that the larger or more complex the Copy List became -- and this translated to both the # of titles and in particular the # of edits -- the greater the risk of a "Copy Err." failure on burning. (This may or may not have some connection to the age of the burner and how much "mileage" you've racked up on it.) But I came to adopt a 'Less is More' / 'Keep it Simple' approach to burns, and the failures remained few and far between. Using the best media also improves your odds. Nowadays, that pretty much comes down to TYGO2 or TYGO3. The once reliable Verbatim has become kinda iffy. Most of the rest out there is junk.

Not sure what to say re your use of EP mode. I find most 2-hour programs quite acceptable in SP, but rarely go any lower than that. (Otherwise, my recording default is MN-26.)
If better quality seems to be required, I'd go to a higher MN for burning to a dual-layer Verbatim.

Thank you for the suggestions. That burn failure I experienced was on the most complex playlist I had ever input into the system. Incidentally, after reading this and other threads, I have for this year no longer deleted sections on the HDD--rather I chapter edit on the HDD and delete out commercials in the Burn Playlist mode. That does add complexity there though.

Definitely 'Keep it Simple' is a good strategy. That's what I'm sticking to. What makes some Burn Playlists complex are those of random clips, multiple other files that I collect on a single disk, just like the one I mentioned burning with multiple play modes.

I'll need to look up TYGO2 or TYGO3; MN-26 etc. The technical details are still new to me. I have used SP mode for recording to DVD DL discs, and for programs I really like...the reason I use EP mode, which is pretty bad quality-wise, is simply that I can fit in 8 episodes of a 45-min show on one disc, saving space for travel, etc. Maybe that will change.


For this and for other disc disaster situations, I think it is well worth investing the 40 or 50 bucks to get a license to ISOBUSTER. If anything stands a chance of recovering whatever may be on that dvd, this program is most likely it. In regard to stuff that is unfinalized but undamaged, I've heard that Cyberlink Power Producer may have the ability to extract VR-format files you've recorded to disc, but I haven't gotten around to checking that program out myself. Certainly, we could use a good solution like that for when you come across such disks, but the recorder that made them is not available, so there is no opportunity to finalize them. ISOBUSTER may have a trial version available, don't know about the other one.

I actually already downloaded the free version of Isobuster, after reading recommendations for it--will have a chance to test it out in several days when I get back my DVD-burning capable computer--lent it to a friend. Thx for the suggestion on the Cyberlink program.


Pioneer pulled the plug on DVDRs in the U.S. market in 2007, and is not expected to return. The PVR boxes supplied by sat and cable companies overwhelmingly dominate what demand there is for recording devices today, even though they do NOT offer the ability to archive material off of their hard drives.

Some reports have this being perhaps the last year for the Pioneer models still being sold in Canada. They seem to be a mixed bag vs. the 640, but may be a case of "get 'em while you can", if you want one. I got my 640 in '07 from a major e-tailer, at a very good price, with an extended warranty thrown in free as a promo. I could have bought two given that deal, and probably should have.

I was really surprised to see the price for the 640's successor go up so much--in some ways it made me feel relieved at having gotten the 640 for about half the cost when I did.

Indeed, when we switched to the HDTV box I inquired about any with DVD-burn capacity options--none. Heard about Toshiba thinking about using flash memory for future DVRs...a possibility.

Just guessing, considering that there was a learning curve for even VCR's which caused potential consumers to tune out, add that a potentially more complex (but superior capability) DVR system...that is what ended up with the shrinking of the customer base for this segment--coupled with the poor retail environment recently.

But I find it hard to believe that the customer demand for archiving TV material has vanished completely...all those VCR-toting viewers (and I was one of them for years) have to go somewhere?

I saw a posting online for a 'region free' DVR-640 for a more expensive price...how about the market internationally? Like in Canada, and elsewhere--the market survives? In the future, could I perhaps get one out of Asia (say Japan, where Pioneer is made, or elsewhere)...that there still might be a market for this kind of technology?

For now, I'm sticking to my 640...a very nice machine. Perhaps the only thing I would fix is allowing keyboard input of names (I do use the alphanumeric keypad there though).

For now, I'm sticking to my 640...a very nice machine. Perhaps the only thing I would fix is allowing keyboard input of names (I do use the alphanumeric keypad there though).

If you can find them, the Pio 550/650 and later models have a USB keyboard option for that.
In the VIDEO ADJUSTMENT menu, they also have an additional SHARP setting when in playback mode, and an additional DETAIL setting when in recording mode. This extra DETAIL setting improves the PQ very noticeably when comparing the Pio 640 with the Pio 550/650 after recording the same material.

[QUOTE=dreamweaver88820

For now, I'm sticking to my 640...a very nice machine. Perhaps the only thing I would fix is allowing keyboard input of names (I do use the alphanumeric keypad there though).[/QUOTE]

Love the keyboard input on my 550H, a welcome change to the 640 input for the names. A great time saver. It can be used to edit names on the unfinalized disks made on the 640.

Last night I tried an experiment with my Pioneer 640 and my Philips 3576.

Because I have been seeing a false or "phantom" copy-once copy protection response on my 3576, I have been testing various ways to determine the source of the response.

I set up the 640 for automatic recording using the output from the 3576 as the input signal. I had 3 programs in the timer recording list on the 3576 to record on Monday night, and so I connected the S-video out from the 3576 to the S-video input 1 (auto start record), and turned on auto start record in the timer recording menu.

I expected the 640 to start recording when the 3576 "woke up" for its timer recording, but a strange (I think it strange) thing happened. The 640 started recording a FULL MINUTE before the 3576 turned itself on the start recording!!!

It seemed as though the 640 "sensed" that the 3576 was going to send a signal, and so it started early to get the entire program... :D

I imagine it is something a bit more mundane, such as the 3576 sent out a signal a minute before it turned on to start recording, and the 640 used that signal to auto start the recording.

Has anyone else used auto start recording on the 640, especially with the 3576? Does the 3576 send a signal through its outputs a minute before it turns itself on the start timer recordings?

What's happening here...?

I imagine it is something a bit more mundane, such as the 3576 sent out a signal a minute before it turned on to start recording, and the 640 used that signal to auto start the recording.

Has anyone else used auto start recording on the 640, especially with the 3576? Does the 3576 send a signal through its outputs a minute before it turns itself on the start timer recordings?

What's happening here...?
You're close, except it's 2 minutes before timer program start. Here's what I've got in the 3575/3576 help file on "Auto-Recording with a Timer Program" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12298438&postcount=13):

The "2-Minute-Warning" - This DVDR will go thru the Loading procedure, spin up the HDD, and change to the channel set in the timer program 2 minutes before the timer start time... all while still being "off." This DVDR will only turn "on" 2-sec before timer start time. "Loading" will show during that 2 sec and the recording will start immediately after.

You're close, except it's 2 minutes before timer program start. Here's what I've got in the 3575/3576 help file on "Auto-Recording with a Timer Program" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12298438&postcount=13):

The "2-Minute-Warning" - This DVDR will go thru the Loading procedure, spin up the HDD, and change to the channel set in the timer program 2 minutes before the timer start time... all while still being "off." This DVDR will only turn "on" 2-sec before timer start time. "Loading" will show during that 2 sec and the recording will start immediately after.

Thanks wajo, I knew you would have the answer.

Well that explains it...no spooky preternatural sensing of the upcoming recording event by the 640 after all...:D

You're close, except it's 2 minutes before timer program start. Here's what I've got in the 3575/3576 help file on "Auto-Recording with a Timer Program" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12298438&postcount=13):

The "2-Minute-Warning" - This DVDR will go thru the Loading procedure, spin up the HDD, and change to the channel set in the timer program 2 minutes before the timer start time... all while still being "off." This DVDR will only turn "on" 2-sec before timer start time. "Loading" will show during that 2 sec and the recording will start immediately after.

I think something similar is going on with the Pioneer. My 520 and 640 are actively doing something or other in their "Ready Mode", a couple minutes before actual recording begins.

Definitely 'Keep it Simple' is a good strategy. That's what I'm sticking to. What makes some Burn Playlists complex are those of random clips, multiple other files that I collect on a single disk, just like the one I mentioned burning with multiple play modes.

The more edits and individual items or clips that appear there in the burn list, the greater the failure potential on the burn: that much has become clear to me. Not sure quite why, but confusion seems to creep in, and we exceed whatever the firmware was programmed to keep track of or accommodate.


I'll need to look up TYGO2 or TYGO3; MN-26 etc.
The first two are Taiyo Yuden blank DVDs -- 8x and 16x respectively. My older 520 only has write strategies for 8x media, whereas the 640 handles most 16x fine. However, the 8x TY remains the default best choice. Any burner that doesn't like it is very suspect, in my pretty-well-read-on-this-subject opinion. For DL (dual layer) blanks, pretty much the only good choice remains Verbatim, and very preferably those Made in Singapore.

MN-26 is the manual bitrate mode for Pioneer that is very likely to fit on a single-layer (DVD-5) disc, for a 90 minute program. I think it is usually noticeably superior quality to SP, which can typically fit a 2-hr. movie on a single-layer disc.
Most "1 hour" dramas on network actually run approx. 42 min., once you edit out the commercials. Therefore, you could fit two such episodes on a single-layer disc at MN-26. But, if it's not something I have much interest in keeping, I'd probably put them on a -RW that I can re-use. I've had good luck with the up-to-4x TDK -RWs so far, but try not to keep anything on them for more than a year, because I think that form of storage may be more prone to going bad. I have some 3x Panasonic or JVC DVD-Ram discs that I could use for the same purpose with the 640, but haven't gotten around to trying them out.


But I find it hard to believe that the customer demand for archiving TV material has vanished completely...all those VCR-toting viewers (and I was one of them for years) have to go somewhere?

As do I. But the sales data and market realities suggest otherwise.

I saw a posting online for a 'region free' DVR-640 for a more expensive price...how about the market internationally? Like in Canada, and elsewhere--the market survives? In the future, could I perhaps get one out of Asia (say Japan, where Pioneer is made, or elsewhere)...that there still might be a market for this kind of technology?


For Canada, I'm withholding any bets. The Japanese market seems to be gadget-oriented, and willing to pay a premium for many gadgets the likes of which we'll never see here. So I would expect them to remain a bastion of sorts. Their Pioneer models I continue to see occasionally, in places like Ebay. Those willing to pay the high price and maybe jump through a few hoops may continue to have such options.

Thx for the explanations on the terms. I didn't know about MN-26, thx for the info. And good luck on using RWs...I use them sparingly nowadays, having had some difficulties with them.

Maybe DVRs with DVD or some sort of transferable media capability will become a novelty/luxury niche item...

More weirdness...just completed finalization of a DVD-R, worked fine although there is 'grinding' from the dusty spindle area apparently. Several days ago, as mentioned I finalized a dozen+ DVD-Rs (all Sony 16x), and they were fine, although one disc took quite a long time to finalize.

An hour+ ago I popped in an unfinalized DVD-R. It contained 5 episodes, 45 min. each. First one in SP mode, rest in EP mode. There is 1 GB remaining, room for 2 45-min. EP episodes at 0.5 GB each.

I set high-speed copy for one 45-min. EP episode. ETA: 2 minutes. Start.

It starts, I hear the grinding noise, on and off as usual. After 3 minutes, it is just the loud 'fan'-like sound, still normal-ish. On the LCD display shows '=>VR' symbols to indicate copying. All normal functions, with the 'Copy' mode grayed out on the screen menu and no access to DVD menu (Copying).

But this continues for 45 minutes. Attempting to access the DVD says "Copy in Progress. Press One Touch Copy for more than 1 sec. to Cancel." I decide to press 'One Touch Copy' and hold it down to cancel copying.

I thought I'd lost all the data on the disc, but accessing the DVD menu finds all 5 episodes there...but not the new one. The disc still shows 1 GB free in the menu. I decide to try burning again. Same playlist, everything. After 3 minutes or so, same fan sound left. I cancel. Same as before, 5 episodes, as if nothing had occurred.

I decide to skip any further copy attempts, and finalize the disc with its 1 session (the original 5 episodes). The 2nd session apparently didn't work. I select 'Finalize' and it starts, 2 minutes, 1 minute, then 0...then it takes several more minutes! The LCD displays says 'Repair.' Then the Finalize session is complete...took long enough!

Tested the disc and the 5 episodes are there, menu accessible, etc. But I look on the back of the disc and the 'burned' section is not the whole thing...the 1 GB 'free space' is still a lighter shade. But the disc IS finalized.

I wonder whether this has to do with that this disc was burned in a first session a few weeks ago? Or perhaps I need to get the dust out of the DVD drive and that grinding noise?

Going off my Panasonic experience I'd say without a doubt your machine needs it's spindle cleaned. Your excellent explanation of what's going on only clarifies it.
I believe Citibear said what a bear:o of a job it was to take the Pio drives apart to clean the spindle that way. What I found on one Panny I have that's basically impossible to remove from it's current location is the following:

Eject the disc tray. Unplug the machine from the wall. Gently slide the disc tray until you can see the spindle inside the drive(not sure if this is possible on a Pio, but I'm just mentioning it). Then using a long handled q-tip, I like the wooden handled ones like used in the medical industry or VCR service of yesteryear. Wet the q-tip with some type of isopropal or tape head cleaner. Using a flashlight to help see, gently clean the spindle the best you can. The spindle part that gets dirty on the Pannys is the lower part that holds the center part of the DVD. I gently spin the q-tip between my fingers while resting it against the rubber spindle. After you're done wait a minute for the spindle to try, plug the machine back in and give it a try. It works for the Pannys, maybe it would work for the Pios?

BTW, I'm quite envious that even after all the grinding your discs are playable. In my experience if the grinding goes on for more than a few seconds on the Pannys the disc will go through the recovery process and either become a disc that is not finalizable and therefor playable only in my Panny recorders, or worse yet have everything that was on the disc totally wiped out:mad:
Before I got into spindle cleaning I racked up over a dozen "Panny only" discs as well as 1/2 dozen coasters where everything was totally lost :( Ouch!
Sounds like Pioneer has mastered the disc recovery process much better than Panasonic:cool:

Yes, the Pioneer burners on 640 and later models is not user-serviceable, but jjeff makes an excellent point about trying an extended Q-tip: I never thought of those!

Regarding that disc you're having problems with: it may not be the burner but the overall recorder design: if the episode on the hard drive was recorded at SP but you want to fit it onto the DVD at EP, the recorder cannot do a high-speed copy. It will go thru the motions of starting it up, but then settle into making a "real-time" copy because it needs to transcode from SP to EP. The way to tell is that it will begin playing the episode from the hard drive, if you click HDD on the remote you'll see the actual show has started automatically playing.

Success! Thanks for the suggestions, this forum has been of great help.

Just one more incident to report...I finished finalizing my DVD-Rs...but with the last one, which had 70+ titles, I decided to edit the thumbnail images. I was nearing the last one, when I was fast-forwarding and back through frames, and I pressed the remote to often--the recorder froze.

This has happened to me once before, also due to pressing FF/RW too quickly. The manual advises powering off, which I did. However, because I was in the midst of editing that DVD-R, all the thumbnail choices were lost (back to previous), and the disc can no longer be edited or finalized. But all the titles can be read though.

On second thought, one area I would consider changing on the 640 is the method of fast forwarding. Compared to my multiple VCR experiences, I think it is more cumbersome to have to press FF 2,3,4 times to get to Scan3 and Scan4, and then typically have to press Pause before pressing RW 2, 3 times to get to the spot you just overshot. On a VCR, rotary controls made it just a forward single action, and a reverse single action, then you were there. Of course, the VCR doesn't have the Scan2 audio feed, and the multiple speeds or the skip 10 min ahead. I wished also there was a one touch button for the skip 10 min. ahead too.

Oh well, after around 150 discs burned so far with this 640, a handful of errors have occurred in burning. Only that one disc I had mentioned before had completely lost data for some mysterious reason (perhaps being moved during HDTV box installation).

When I get our laptop/DVD burner back I will try some recovery programs. Read also that Nero and perhaps other programs can finalize a disc that was burned elsewhere...I guess it's that important to finalize DVD-Rs? I have done so with all my others.

Going off my Panasonic experience I'd say without a doubt your machine needs it's spindle cleaned. Your excellent explanation of what's going on only clarifies it.
I believe Citibear said what a bear:o of a job it was to take the Pio drives apart to clean the spindle that way. What I found on one Panny I have that's basically impossible to remove from it's current location is the following:

Eject the disc tray. Unplug the machine from the wall. Gently slide the disc tray until you can see the spindle inside the drive(not sure if this is possible on a Pio, but I'm just mentioning it). Then using a long handled q-tip, I like the wooden handled ones like used in the medical industry or VCR service of yesteryear. Wet the q-tip with some type of isopropal or tape head cleaner. Using a flashlight to help see, gently clean the spindle the best you can. The spindle part that gets dirty on the Pannys is the lower part that holds the center part of the DVD. I gently spin the q-tip between my fingers while resting it against the rubber spindle. After you're done wait a minute for the spindle to try, plug the machine back in and give it a try. It works for the Pannys, maybe it would work for the Pios?


Thanks for the suggestion, and here I am happy to report...SUCCESS! However, it was a very challenging procedure from my experience. I was 'miffed' at first to discover that ejecting the tray, and powering off the 640 causes the tray to nicely retract itself. How unlike my PC computer! :p

Anyhow, unplugging and leaving the tray out, I did use an LED penlight and peek in there. It is a very, very narrow slot and even cue-tips had to push to get in there. I used isopropyl alcohol, which others also recommend. However, somewhat awkwardly 'jabbing' in there and getting the spindle to rotate...I wasn't sure if anything was being cleaned. Also was worried about threads of cue tip felt going around in there.

Finally, after some close calls, I decided to take the 'saliva' idea mentioned above in this thread, and instead use isopropyl alcohol. I coated the inner circle, transparent section (the part that gets 'concentric rings') with a light sheen of isopropyl. I then put it in the tray, activated the 640, let the disc spin around there for a bit, and removed it. Then I left the drive tray open for an hour to dry.

And just now, I've finished burning/finalizing several DVDs, including one new Sony 16x DVD. Absolutely no grinding whatsoever. It burns as quietly as it did several months ago!

Thanks everyone for the help. I will not miss that 'grinding purr.' :D

The way to tell is that it will begin playing the episode from the hard drive, if you click HDD on the remote you'll see the actual show has started automatically playing.

Yes, I did check the video feed and there was nothing playing. Anyhow, no worries, I just now burned the episode using High-Speed onto a new DVD-R and it worked fine! :)

As an addendum to what I mentioned earlier...I got access to my laptop DVD burner and was able to successfully use Isobuster to recover the .iso video files off of both DVDs with finalization problems, including the disc that for some reason the 640 wouldn't read. Now I have a bunch of .iso files which can be viewed using VLC Media Player, and if I can figure out file structure (VIDEO_TS etc) could be made into a video DVD again. Maybe some other time...

So both disks cannot be finalized...how long will these DVD-Rs last?

Moreover, I'm most happy that the DVD noise is gone, that was a biggie. :)

Now on another note, I was wondering about turning on/off and the HDD spinning in the 640. I try to minimize turning on the 640 multiple times in a day. If a program is recorded for 6PM (1 hr.) and another at 8PM (1hr.), I try to leave the 640 on from 7-8 so it does not have to turn on/off. Is that better or worse for the recorder, does anyone know? Or should I just turn it off?

Thanks for all the great advice!

I try to leave the 640 on from 7-8 so it does not have to turn on/off. Is that better or worse for the recorder, does anyone know? Or should I just turn it off?Most consumer hard drives are rated at about 50,000 start/stop cycles. If your HDD turns on and off ten times a day you'll be well past 12 or 13 years before you reach that limit. The hard drive or something else will probably fail for other reasons well before then, so I wouldn't loose any sleep over it.

As an addendum to what I mentioned earlier...I got access to my laptop DVD burner and was able to successfully use Isobuster to recover the .iso video files off of both DVDs with finalization problems, including the disc that for some reason the 640 wouldn't read. Now I have a bunch of .iso files which can be viewed using VLC Media Player, and if I can figure out file structure (VIDEO_TS etc) could be made into a video DVD again. Maybe some other time...

There are ways to burn, convert, or extract the contents of an .ISO (hopefully to a standard and required DVD file structure), but we don't know ahead of time exactly what is in these .ISOs ? If you should get to a situation where all you have are .VOBs, it is quite possible that a tool like FIXVTS can generate fresh .IFO, .BUP, etc. files for them, to complete what you need for a DVD that would be playable in a standalone player.


So both disks cannot be finalized...how long will these DVD-Rs last?

Not sure if you're referring to the media used here ? As is often mentioned, there aren't many choices left for good quality media. If you use good quality media, they should last a long time . . . but I'm not placing any large wagers. I've had some shows or movies that were burned 2 or 3 years ago (on media like TDK or Maxell -Rs) that were starting to exhibit serious problems. None of them had been played much, and I tried to use good care in the way they were stored. When I find one of these -- and if it is something that I really want to preserve -- I rip it to hard drive and re-burn it onto Taiyo Yuden -R media. So far, this has always worked. The end result no longer has those problems -- like disc freezes. I'm sure there must be some bad TY discs here and there, but I've not had any failures with them yet, myself. That's about the best you can do.

I doubt the survivability of the contents will be dependent on whether the discs were finalized or not. Due to proprietary differences between different DVD-recorders, it may affect whether or not you still have working hardware with which to read the disc. If the recording is important, I would recommend going to the trouble of getting these to where you can burn and finalize them to a readily playable condition.

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep those tips in mind. I'll be burning some widescreen SP recordings in the near future, made of recordings from HDTV channels. Should be interesting! And no more noise--thanks for that!

I have read through parts of this thread and I am just getting more and more frustrated. If someone could provide an answer or direct me to a post, I would be very thankful for the help.

I have a set of recordings that I recorded with 16:9 Full setting on my camcorder (Sony CCD-TRV68). I used the front vid inputs (Input 2) on the 640 and used the recording mode of SLP to record to the 640 hard drive. I had 2 recordings of 3.5 hours each. When I went to Copy HDD-DVD and used Video Mode (so others can play the footage on their DVD player), it said it couldn't do High Speed. OK, so I wait another 7 hours for the footage to get copied to the DVD-R and finalize it, but when I playback the DVD it didn't record in the widescreen mode anyway; it compressed it into 4:3 footage on the DVD. After 14 hours of waiting has just pissed me off to the point where I'm not able to read this thread with any kind of rational thought.

Is there any way to create a widescreen DVD from the 640 that is compatible with other DVD players? If so, is it also possible to HighSpeed copy from HDD to DVD?

Again, thank you for helping if this has been addressed before, I am just frustrated.

I had been looking at getting a new camcorder (like the Canon HF-10) but after what I have read about the AVCHD standard and trying to create DVD's in both widescreen and BluRay formats I have decided to wait. Why is creating DVD's with widescreen so difficult??? I think of all the time I have wasted in the 20 years trying to make things I buy work the way they should have from the manufacturer (cell phones, computer software and peripherials, video equipment, DVR's, DVD-Recorders, Sling Boxes, etc.) that thought has just sucked the remaining life out of me today. Sorry for the rant.

See the Note on bottom of pg 83 in manual... WS rec in certain low-res modes can't be HS copied to any type of DVD, and SLP is one of them.

Also, at bottom of pg 85, the Note says you can't HS copy some low res rec modes in HS to a DVD+R/RW disc, and again, SLP is one of them.

On the WS thing, here's a thread on successful direct rec of WS programs on the 640 from a digital channel thru my Philips 3575, (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016350) which shows the 640 can rec a WS program in a low-res (EP) mode.

So, not sure why your rec didn't turn out WS even when copying in real-time. One diff. that really *shouldn't* matter (?) is I used the back Composite input (L1) instead of the front? Maybe the answer is in what the camcorder sends to the 640 over a Composite connection, like a lot of STBs... might need to be DV... just a WAG.

I have been able to record anamorphic widescreen home videos on my 6-year-old JVC mini-DV camcorder. The setting used on my camcorder is "stretch mode" or something close to that. There is another "widescreen" mode in my camcorder that essentially records widescreen as a letterboxed 16x9 picture within a 4x3 frame in a non-anamorphic mode.

If I start with playback of the "Stretch Mode" recording on my camcorder and send a composite or S-video or digital (IEEE-1394 aka FireWire aka iLink) signal to the appropriate input on my Pioneer 520H hard drive DVD recorder (predecessor to the 640 model) the DVD recording includes the widescreen flag that was sent with the anamorphic video from my camcorder. This results in a properly-flagged widescreen DVD recording that plays widescreen on a 16x9 TV and letterboxed or full-screen with cropped sides on a 4x3 TV, depending on the settings for aspect ratio on playback in the DVD player.

In the past, I have read through the operating instructions for the 640H recorder and found that all references to flagged widescreen recording are identical to those for my 520H recorder. So, I would expect comparable behavior between the 520H and the 640H.

I confirmed that the anamorphic video with widescreen flag from my camcorder is also captured and recorded properly using iMovie on my Mac computers, using IEEE-1394. So I know my camcorder provides the widescreen flag and my 520H DVD recorder recognizes and records the same.

So, I suggest experimenting with the recording options in the camcorder. Perhaps it has 2 confusing choices as mine does. The one that says widescreen on mine is actually letterboxed, while the one that says stretched is actually anamorphic flagged widescreen video, just as you get from an "enhanced for widescreen" commercial DVD.

I also make widescreen flagged recordings on my Pioneer 520H DVD recorder from widescreen recorded programs on my HD TiVo (DirecTV version). In this case, I can set the TiVo to output the stretched, anamorphic video but it lacks the widescreen flag. I use an external device to insert the widescreen flag into the analog video signal path between the TiVo and the DVD recorder. The end result is properly flagged anamophic widescreen recordings that playback properly on both 16x9 and 4x3 TVs with no video distortion.

To recap, I am fairly certain that your 640H will recognize/capture/record a widescreen flag if present in the input video signal, just like my 520H recorder does. Hopefully your camcorder has a different recording option setting that will provide a stretched anamorphic signal complete with widescreen flag.

but when I playback the DVD it didn't record in the widescreen mode anyway; it compressed it into 4:3 footage on the DVD.

"Compressed into 4x3" is exactly what anamorphic wide screen looks like on a SD DVD. You need to set your TV to "wide" picture mode, to stretch it out to 16x9. I'm assuming you have a HDTV. If you have a SD 4x3 TV, you really wanted Letterbox, not widescreen.

Very good info, Budget_HT. I'd been wondering for quite a while if Pioneers set the widescreen flag for 16:9 video from a miniDV camcorder via firewire. You seem to confirm that they do, and via composite and S-video as well. In my experience, Panasonics and Philips do not, but my Toshiba RD-XS35 does, and it might be safe to expect that more current Pioneers also do what your 520 does. That's good news.

Very good info, Budget_HT. I'd been wondering for quite a while if Pioneers set the widescreen flag for 16:9 video from a miniDV camcorder via firewire. You seem to confirm that they do, and via composite and S-video as well. In my experience, Panasonics and Philips do not, but my Toshiba RD-XS35 does, and it might be safe to expect that more current Pioneers also do what your 520 does. That's good news.

To clarify, the Pioneer 520H will not force set the widescreen flag, but it will recognize it on input and record it so that playback is based on the presence of the flag.

I use this feature often to make excellent-quality widescreen DVD recordings of HD widescreen programs. Because the input signal, down-rez'd from high definition, is noise-free and as good as NTSC gets, the resulting recordings rival the video quality of commercial "enhanced for widescreen" DVDs.

wajo,

I apologize for taking so long to thank you.

Two things happened. One I didn't realize it, but in the middle of the footage there was a section in SD. I guess that happened when I switched batteries. I think this cause the WS flag to be removed. The other was, as documented in this thread, that using SLP is not possible for high speed copying of the WS flag. I used a higher quality, SP, plus deleted the SD footage and it went fine. BTW I did use the L2 input and it worked fine with the WS flag.

It sucks that the quality has to be so high to get the WS flag and high speed copy, but that's the way it is.

Also, thank you to Budget_HT and the others for your help also.

Cheers,
Grant

See the Note on bottom of pg 83 in manual... WS rec in certain low-res modes can't be HS copied to any type of DVD, and SLP is one of them.

Also, at bottom of pg 85, the Note says you can't HS copy some low res rec modes in HS to a DVD+R/RW disc, and again, SLP is one of them.

On the WS thing, here's a thread on successful direct rec of WS programs on the 640 from a digital channel thru my Philips 3575, (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1016350) which shows the 640 can rec a WS program in a low-res (EP) mode.

So, not sure why your rec didn't turn out WS even when copying in real-time. One diff. that really *shouldn't* matter (?) is I used the back Composite input (L1) instead of the front? Maybe the answer is in what the camcorder sends to the 640 over a Composite connection, like a lot of STBs... might need to be DV... just a WAG.

I have my Jukebox unplugged for a few months and now when I try to use the remote: it will not react.
Anyone has an idea how to fix this?
(yes fresh batteries installed in remote)
Thanks!

Yes, point remote at 640 and press and hold RETURN button while pressing and holding #1 button. Hold both buttons long enough (>5 sec?) to see if front panel display changes. If/when it does, that means the remote is in sync with the 640.

If #1 doesn't work, try #2 in same way, then #3 in same way.

You're trying to match the remote to the machine's "Remote Control Code" which is in the Options menu, but since you can't get to that menu with the remote to see what number the machine is set to, you'll have to try each code until you find the one the machine is set to.

A BIG Thank you!!!
That did the trick!!!

anyone have a diagram on how to hookup:
DVR640HS to:
cable box-scrambled
tv
sony digital stereo?

Exactly what do you mean by "cable box-scrambled"?

Exactly what do you mean by "Sony digital Stereo?" Do you mean an AVR?

Does anyone need to know how hook up 3 or more Digital converter boxes to a or multiple analog DVR/VCR devices to record multiple channels simultaneously, and possibly to watch another at the same time?

Go to this thread in the CECB topic area to reply:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16365917
(Title:"Anyone want to hook up Multiple conv boxs W/ mltpl recordrs?")

I have done this quite sucessfully. And I am not limited to recording a particular channel on any particular recorder. I have 3 recorders, one is a Pioneer DVR-640, two are VCRs, and any one of these can be programmed to record any of the 3 (or more if you like) channels converted by my 3 DTV converter boxes; at any time, without changing the DTV converter box channel. I am also not limited to recording from any particular DTV converter box from any of the three (or more if you like) recorders.

It is not easy to figure out. I convert all DTV converter outputs to analog RF, different channels. It's easy to do 2, as you can use analog RF channels built-in to the converter boxes. The trick is the third, and subsequent DTV converted-to-analog signals, and combining them. Sure, you can wire the composite output from a converter box to a recorder, but then you are limited to recording from that converter box on that recorder only. I wanted versatility to record all the channels on any recorder at any time, without having to manually change the DTV converter box channel before the recording starts - this causes some missed recordings.

I could diagram it for you, but it would take me a couple of hours. So I need to know first, is anyone interested?