Pioneer DVR 640h-S User Reports. [Text View] - Page 4

ACPewty

08-19-06, 07:11 PM

Out of curiosity--------
Why would the 633 be better than the 640 remote?

At first, I thought the slide door of the 640 was a pain in the B, but now I prefer it, thinking I would be forever pressing on the buttons while picking it up and holding it if not for the door. The door snaps in place if you pull it out far enough. (take it off:))

As far as having the reject button, you have to go up to the set to put your disc in or take it out anyway? Why reject from your "recliner"?

I almost ordered one but had second thoughts. Those being it.

UrleeI prefer the 633 remote because:

1) Commercial skip does not work for finalized recordings with the 640 remote, but it does when you use the 633 remote on the 640.
2) I don't like the door hiding the alphanumeric keys which are needed often for entering title names since currently the 640 does not pick up titles automatically, nor does it carry over names entered manually for timer events.
3) There are a number of buttons on the 633 remote that aren't included on the 640 remote, including TV control buttons (I like the Power & input select buttons for the TV), Timer Record and as you mentioned Eject.
4) I like the placement and accessibility of buttons better on the 633 remote.
5) I'm used to the 633 remote :)
6) It seems like a better more durable remote than the 640 remote. I bet that sliding door will stop closing properly after lots of use.
7) When you have an eject/open/close button you appreciate it when you just sat down and you realize you forgot to close the tray.

The only button the 640 has that isn't included on the 633 remote is for VCRPlus and I never use that. Maybe others would miss that, but not me as I'm on satellite. Even when I had cable I never used VCRPlus.

richardfalco

08-19-06, 07:46 PM

kjbawc

08-19-06, 09:07 PM

Urlee:

I noticed something else in that picture that you included as a diagram.

What would the difference be in setting one recording to record from 6:00pm to 7:00pm with a 30 minute "Extend", versus setting it from 6:00pm to 7:30pm with no Extend?

suplex

This has puzzled me also. I don't see that there would be a difference, when set before the recording. I haven't tried, but perhaps you can enter the menu while recording is in process, and extend it if needed?

Sean Nelson

08-19-06, 09:45 PM

As far as having the reject button...Hey, my 633 remote doesn't have a "reject" button, only an "eject" button. Considering how bad some TV shows are, a "reject" button sounds like it could be a great timesaver. How do I get one? :D

suplex

08-19-06, 10:28 PM

This has puzzled me also. I don't see that there would be a difference, when set before the recording. I haven't tried, but perhaps you can enter the menu while recording is in process, and extend it if needed?

At first I wondered if it might have something to do with the quality setting. Like if you set it for two hours...and used a 30 minute Extend...you could set it for SP mode. But if you set it for two and a half hours...with no Extend...then you would have to use MN 18 for the 150 Minutes (2.5 Hours), where SP is MN 21.

Of course all that would only make a difference if you planned on transferring your content to DVD at High Speed, but I am still not sure if that's right.

Come to think of it, now I am wondering about something else. I wonder if there is a difference with using MN 21 versus SP Mode? They both yield 2 Hours, but you have to wonder if you actually use the preset mode (XP, SP, LP, etc...) if it's different than the Manual settings. I would guess it's not.

wajo

08-19-06, 10:36 PM

Just received my new 640 today and set it up in about 10 minutes! What a jewel!

I already tested the SP and LP rec. mode quality and couldn't see any difference (both now 720 x 480). I recorded the QVC channel, which has studio lighting, and text always on screen (the on-screen element most difficult to maintain sharp edges on as PQ degrades).

I even like the new remote control...much less "intimidating" or "busy," with most-often used buttons spaced and sized well for the "average" recorder/watcher. Heavy editors...even lightweight ones...might not like the door covering their text-entry buttons?

Although it does not transfer titles set up in advance of recording, it is still

Pio-neerperfect!

Urlee

08-20-06, 08:14 AM

Urlee:

I noticed something else in that picture that you included as a diagram.

What would the difference be in setting one recording to record from 6:00pm to 7:00pm with a 30 minute "Extend", versus setting it from 6:00pm to 7:30pm with no Extend?

suplex

Suplex,
I was wondering the same thing about that Extend box which I have not used or thought of using as I just enter my time over whatever like you stated?

I took that picture from the manual just to use the part Dave was asking about.
Verify on page 43.

Usless feature????

Urlee

Urlee

08-20-06, 08:27 AM

Hey, my 633 remote doesn't have a "reject" button, only an "eject" button. Considering how bad some TV shows are, a "reject" button sounds like it could be a great timesaver. How do I get one? :D

"LOLOLOLO"
SEAN! How dare you embarrass me??????? :D

My face is a certain color which I know you are giggling right about now about.

It slipped by the others or they were all too sweet to "broadcast" it?

Still LUV YA,

Urlee http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/urlee/laugh.gif

David Susilo

08-20-06, 09:53 AM

dcoulombe

08-20-06, 10:00 AM

The extend feature is perfect to quickly adjust program entered by VCR Plus+.

I use it almost always when I enter pluscodes, as I don't trust cable programmers to be very precise.

I hate losing the end of a movie :-(

And it still is faster than editing the ending time of the program. Sure, if you program it from scratch, there is no need to use this function.

Budget_HT

08-20-06, 10:10 AM

Extend would be good for when VCR+ is used for recording sports broadcasts, which have a tendency to run over the scheduled time. As stated before, it is easy to clip off the unneeded portion later.

suplex

08-20-06, 10:52 AM

MN21 is SP, no difference at all.

I personally use MN16, which is still the same resolution but with the ocassional more block noise (lower bitrate). Starting MN15 or lower, the resolution drops to (IIRC 480x480)

I was looking at the Manual on Page 125 (for the 640) and it has some interesting information on it. They have two separate columns to which I will type the information about below:

For Video Mode OFF (which would be VR Mode), the list is as follows:

MN 32 to MN 16 = 720x480
MN 15 to MN 12 = 544x480
MN 11 to MN 09 = 480x480
MN 08 to MN 07 = 352x480
MN 06 to MN 01 = 352x240

For Video Mode ON (non VR Mode) and for DVD+R/+RW, the list goes like this:

MN 32 to MN 09 = 720x480
MN 08 to MN 07 = 352x480
MN 06 to MN 01 = 352x240

Then at the bottom of the page it lists two more things:

1. Modes MN 01 to MN 03 not available when using DVD+R/+RW.
2. Titles recorded at MN 06 or lower cannot be high speed copied to DVD+R/+RW.

Sean Nelson

08-20-06, 10:57 AM

SEAN! How dare you embarrass me??????? :DSome mistakes are embarrasing, but others are simply too sweet to pass up. ;)

I think from now on at the end of every stinky DVD I play I'm going to say "Reject!" as I press my remote button... :p

FPresse

08-21-06, 11:36 AM

I prefer the 633 remote because:

1) Commercial skip does not work for finalized recordings with the 640 remote, but it does when you use the 633 remote on the 640.
2) I don't like the door hiding the alphanumeric keys which are needed often for entering title names since currently the 640 does not pick up titles automatically, nor does it carry over names entered manually for timer events.
3) There are a number of buttons on the 633 remote that aren't included on the 640 remote, including TV control buttons (I like the Power & input select buttons for the TV), Timer Record and as you mentioned Eject.
4) I like the placement and accessibility of buttons better on the 633 remote.
5) I'm used to the 633 remote :)
6) It seems like a better more durable remote than the 640 remote. I bet that sliding door will stop closing properly after lots of use.
7) When you have an eject/open/close button you appreciate it when you just sat down and you realize you forgot to close the tray.

The only button the 640 has that isn't included on the 633 remote is for VCRPlus and I never use that. Maybe others would miss that, but not me as I'm on satellite. Even when I had cable I never used VCRPlus.

I was wondering why the remote on the 633 was better than the 640, but now I know. Commercial skip would be good to have it worked. Also, the thing i would like on the top of the remote of the 640 is the clear button too.

Have a nice day!

FPresse

08-21-06, 11:38 AM

Extend would be good for when VCR+ is used for recording sports broadcasts, which have a tendency to run over the scheduled time. As stated before, it is easy to clip off the unneeded portion later.

I think you're right about that. It's a good idea.

wajo

08-21-06, 12:24 PM

I prefer the 633 remote because:

7) When you have an eject/open/close button you appreciate it when you just sat down and you realize you forgot to close the tray.
The PLAY button closes the tray and starts the Play mode. There is no button to open the tray, tho'.

I just noticed that commercial DVDs won't let you FF thru the WARNING or even the producer's logo section. FF only works after you select PLAY from the DVD's menu, and then only after the producer's logo if it's in that section. Maybe this was always the case?

ACPewty

08-21-06, 03:34 PM

The PLAY button closes the tray and starts the Play mode. There is no button to open the tray, tho'.

I just noticed that commercial DVDs won't let you FF thru the WARNING or even the producer's logo section. FF only works after you select PLAY from the DVD's menu, and then only after the producer's logo if it's in that section. Maybe this was always the case?Yes, that has always been the case depending on the DVD. That's different from the commercial skip problem on the 640 remote though. It doesn't work for any finalized recording including your own recordings from TV etc, but the 633 remote does. (Were you referring to that?)

wajo

08-21-06, 04:05 PM

No, just clarifying your Item 7 for other potential buyers/users.

Sean Nelson

08-21-06, 05:07 PM

I just noticed that commercial DVDs won't let you FF thru the WARNING or even the producer's logo section. FF only works after you select PLAY from the DVD's menu, and then only after the producer's logo if it's in that section.Here's a tip I use with my Pioneer 633 to skip the FBI warnings and menu intro and go directly to the main DVD menu for commercial DVDs: Insert DVD and switch to "DVD" mode. The FBI warning appears. Switch to HDD mode and then back to DVD mode again. Press "Menu".

ACPewty

08-21-06, 05:26 PM

Here's a tip I use with my Pioneer 633 to skip the FBI warnings and menu intro and go directly to the main DVD menu for commercial DVDs: Insert DVD and switch to "DVD" mode. The FBI warning appears. Switch to HDD mode and then back to DVD mode again. Press "Menu".Nice tip, thanks Sean. BTW, I admire your courage messing with the FBI on a public forum. I hope the mounties don't come pounding on your door tonight. :)

richardfalco

08-21-06, 11:08 PM

Sean Nelson

08-21-06, 11:54 PM

BTW, I admire your courage messing with the FBI on a public forum. I hope the mounties don't come pounding on your door tonight. :)As far as I know the Digital Millenium Copyright Act only applies to trying to overcome "technological means designed to prevent copying", not to skipping over unwanted FBI messages! ;)

FPresse

08-22-06, 09:02 AM

A little more info on my problem...it looks like the files that will not play are DivX version 3 files (as reported by GSpot).

Anyone else having a problem with DivX movies?

RF

Me too, i have some problems sometime in reading divx files. I burn them on a DVD-RW (on dvd-R, it does not work). Yesterday night, i burned divx files on 2 dvd-rw, on was easy to read and the other did the same thing as it was a PAL movie, I have sound, and the screen is filled with horizontal lines. If I put the dvd in my player dv290 pioneer, everything works fine. This player reads anything.

My problem is not the same as you but that is a reading problem I think.

SunnyDrT

08-22-06, 10:31 AM

Me too, i have some problems sometime in reading divx files. I burn them on a DVD-RW (on dvd-R, it does not work). Yesterday night, i burned divx files on 2 dvd-rw, on was easy to read and the other did the same thing as it was a PAL movie, I have sound, and the screen is filled with horizontal lines. If I put the dvd in my player dv290 pioneer, everything works fine. This player reads anything.

My problem is not the same as you but that is a reading problem I think.

I just purchased my first PVR/DVD writer, the Pioneer DVR-640H-S. Everything seems to be working very well, expect for one issue. (The main reason I purchased the unit.)

When attempting to play DivX AVI files from either DVD or CD media, I get a good 1-2 second delay in the video, compared to where the audio track is. (ie: The Video and Audio tracks aren't in sync, with the Video lagging behind the Audio.)

Now when these same files are played from my PC's HDD or DVD, they all play perfectly well, so I'm unsure of what the issue is.

Does anyone else haveany ideas on this? Is anyone else experencing this issue?

Originally Posted by dcoulombe
SunnyDrT:

Welcome.

As I mentionned earlier, I was able to play DivX on CD and DVD with my DVR-640H-S but did not experience any lag at all.

I used MPEG4 avi encoding for the video and MP3 for the audio using handbrake on a Mac iBook 1.33GHz. No problem at all.

You might consider doing different encoding tests and burn the results on rewritable media. You might found a better setting.

Hi dcoulombe,

Many thanks for the reply. I appreciate the feedback/suggestion. I was thinkig of trying re-writable media for further tests. The "bad" part for me in this is I'm not the originator of the DivX avi files. (I haven't gotten into that end of things yet.)

I did have some odd results though (which make no sense in the digital world), but here they are. (Makes me think it's drivers/hardware* on the 640 or software** on my PC.) Anyway, I found that some of the later files burned onto the discs, had the lag reduced or none at all. I reversed the burn order, and it did it again, no lag with later files burned. (Very odd, and makes no sense at all.)

* I'm going to be discussing what process is in place for DivX versions/firmware
upgrades with Pioneer tech support today.

** Nero 6 Ultra, LG DVD writer (I forget which model), 8x RiDATA DVD-R media.

A friend is going to test these same discs on another brand (Toshiba, I think) of PVR/DVD Writer. I'll pass on the results once they are done.

Best Regards,
SunnyDrT

SunnyDrT:

As you are not the originator of the DivX files, the problem can be the files' encoding.

Try other files from other sources.

You might end up with the right solution...

Let us informed of your findings.

A little more info on my problem...it looks like the files that will not play are DivX version 3 files (as reported by GSpot).

Anyone else having a problem with DivX movies?

RF

Well, keeping with my promise to pass on my results. . . I contacted (by telephone) Pioneer Canada Customer Support (as other DivX/Avi File versions and media made no difference in my results), they claim they have never heard off, or had any reports of DivX related issues. But if I wanted to ship them my "fresh new unit" they would look into a DivX and/or Firmware upgrade when (and if) they come out. Hence I'm continuing to look for other solutions . . . and now that I'm finding other people are having DivX playback issues, it's good to see it's not just me . . . Perhaps Pioneer should read this forum . . . 8-)

Also, I wasn't able to try the Toshiba PVR, as it turns out that it doesn't have DiVX support, as originally thought, darn.

I will keep hunting/working on this issue, and report back with anything relevant I may find.

Best Regards,
SunnyDrT

PS: If anyone else is having any DiVX related issues, please continue to post your findings or new post anew your findings . . . 8-)

FPresse

08-25-06, 04:11 PM

Nice tip, thanks Sean. BTW, I admire your courage messing with the FBI on a public forum. I hope the mounties don't come pounding on your door tonight. :)

It's quiet here since a few days! Nobody has problem I suppose, everything works fine with the 640...

Have a nice weekend!

Urlee

08-25-06, 04:32 PM

It's quiet here since a few days! Nobody has problem I suppose, everything works fine with the 640...

Have a nice weekend!

Thanks Presse,

I haven't had time to play with my 640 other than view the program I have set to record M-F as I have been pretty busy.

I just noticed recently when I do the reverse play, I see specs all over my picture. Can't remember which setting it was on when that happens.
By setting, I mean did I click two times in reverse etc. or was it at normal play.
Noticed in forward too but not in normal playback.
Will look for sure so I can post it correctly as to what happened when.

Urlee

David Susilo

08-25-06, 05:27 PM

In terms of recording quality. The 633 originally recorded at XP+ and re-encode to either XP to SP still look better than 640 straight to XP or SP recording.

bobkart

08-25-06, 06:27 PM

That's interesting. More evidence that the XP+ route was the way to go perhaps.

How does 633 XP versus 640 XP look? I can't imagine they took a step backwards in Picture Quality.

David Susilo

08-25-06, 07:53 PM

they look identical.

Also I'm missing the preview feature when I choose a certain MN numbers (on the 633, once you choose, say MN8, you can select "preview" and it'll show you how it looks like).

bobkart

08-25-06, 08:02 PM

So that implies that even on the 633, re-encoding from XP+ to XP yields better Picture Quality than recording straight to XP. There have been many discussions on this matter, with no real resolution. Your reports would seem to resolve it. Although I am struggling to explain why it might be that way. The only answer would seem to be in the allegedly 2-pass nature of the XP+-to-XP re-encoding (the few minutes where it says it is gathering information).

David Susilo

08-25-06, 08:18 PM

yup, it's the double pass encoding that creates better picture, IMO.

Diesel_73

08-27-06, 09:58 AM

Hello All,
Just an update for ya......Ive just recorded my 300th DVD.....alot of VHS to DVD and some movies/sports off direct tv....havent had a problem, everythings worked to perfection!!......I use verbatim DVD-R,s in video mode......I record mostly in MN20 in converting the VHS, its mostly teaching tapes, the sound is more important than the picture.....as for movies off directtv ill just cut them according to time....MN26 for a 1&1/2 ect....sporting events ill record according to time, usually after all the commercials are cut out i can get a 3hr event on @ MN 15 or 16 i think & it still looks fine to me!!...great piece of equipment!!

Mike

suplex

08-27-06, 10:58 AM

WendyM

08-27-06, 11:16 AM

richardfalco

08-27-06, 11:25 AM

It's quiet here since a few days! Nobody has problem I suppose, everything works fine with the 640...

Have a nice weekend!

My only problem has been with DivX movies. I am finding more and more that do not play...I get audio, but just a blank screen...these seem to be mostly older Xvid and Divx 3.0 encodes...I've even tried reencoding these older divx movies with DR. Divx with no luck.

Newer movies (xvid included) seem to work fine. Can't seem to find a reason why some work and some don't...

Waiting for that first firmware upgrade from Pioneer!

RF

Diesel_73

08-27-06, 11:40 AM

Diesel_73:

And when you do all of this...just to confirm...you go VHS > HDD > DVD, or for VHS transfers do you go direct from VHS > DVD?

Even if I am recording something off of television that I know has no commercials, I still go to the HDD first. Just wondering how you do it.

Suplex
Hi Suplex.....Yes i always record to HDD 1st, then edit anything needed and speed copy to DVD.......i have hundreds of VHS, so what i do is throw 2 VHS (dual deck) into the deck and set the timer on the 640 and record them to the HDD....alot of times overnite, then whenever i have a few minutes or some time i divide-edit- title-thumbnail- chapter divide & burn according to whats on the tapes......works out well!!......smile

suplex

08-27-06, 11:47 AM

In the manual it says that in the setup navigator you choose where your terrestrial TV channels are coming from - Antenna or Cable. If I only have a satellite receiver hooked up, would I be correct in assuming I would choose "Do not set" on this screen? It seems like the obvious answer, but the manual doesn't really seem to deal with this possibility.

Hello WendyM and welcome to AVSForum.

Are you referring to "Do Not Set" meaning that there is only the option for Antenna or Cable (where Satellite is not a choice), so "Do Not Set" would signify you are not using Antenna or Cable?

If that's so then I believe you would be right. Also, not that it's the end of the world to have to do this, try it with "Do Not Set" and if it doesn't work, then see if maybe it considers "Cable" to be the same as "Satellite" as far as how it's hooked up is concerned. It might take a little trial and error, but you will have it working in no time. Go with "Do Not Set" first and then try it out from there.

By the way, did the "Help" button do anything for you if you pressed it on the screen where you setup where your channels are coming from? Just curious because I have found the Help button to be not very helpful at times.

Diesel_73

08-27-06, 11:51 AM

I just bought my new 640 yesterday and am trying to get it set up today. Already a question:

In the manual it says that in the setup navigator you choose where your terrestrial TV channels are coming from - Antenna or Cable. If I only have a satellite receiver hooked up, would I be correct in assuming I would choose "Do not set" on this screen? It seems like the obvious answer, but the manual doesn't really seem to deal with this possibility.

I've searched through the manual and this forum for this, but I don't seem to be able to find a clear answer. If anyone knows for sure, I'd like to know before I start the setup. Thanks in advance....
Hi Wendy
I have a sat. reciever also, i just looked into my set-up under tuner, it gives you options of antenna-manual or vhs+.....I didnt set any of those, they are all greyed out & i just by-passed them....i run my sat reciever thru L3 & my VHS deck thru L1......hopes this helps....
If i wanna watch TV thru the 640 i have it on L3.....if im not recording ill leave the 640 off (give it a rest-haha) and put the reciver on thru video1 of my TV set......any other questions i can help with, just ask

Mike
smiles

Sean Nelson

08-27-06, 12:35 PM

In the manual it says that in the setup navigator you choose where your terrestrial TV channels are coming from - Antenna or Cable. If I only have a satellite receiver hooked up, would I be correct in assuming I would choose "Do not set" on this screen? It seems like the obvious answer, but the manual doesn't really seem to deal with this possibility.This question is used to configure the channels that the DVD recorder's tuner can tune to using the RF Input. "Antenna" tells the tuner that it is receiving OTA (Over The Air) broadcasts, which use certain frequencies (ie, channels 2-13 and UHF). "Cable" tells the tuner that is is receiving via a cable system, which uses different frequencies beyond channel 14 than OTA does.

Since you won't be using the tuner (I assume you'll be connecting your satellite receiver to one of the line inputs), it really doesn't matter what you choose for this option.

WendyM

08-27-06, 12:56 PM

This question is used to configure the channels that the DVD recorder's tuner can tune to using the RF Input. "Antenna" tells the tuner that it is receiving OTA (Over The Air) broadcasts, which use certain frequencies (ie, channels 2-13 and UHF). "Cable" tells the tuner that is is receiving via a cable system, which uses different frequencies beyond channel 14 than OTA does.

Since you won't be using the tuner (I assume you'll be connecting your satellite receiver to one of the line inputs), it really doesn't matter what you choose for this option.

Wow, thanks for all the quick responses.

I haven't actually tried doing this yet - I'm just looking at what the manual shows that will need to be done and trying to be prepared. The help button is a good idea, I'll definitely try that.

The reason I was asking was - if I choose Antenna or Cable will the machine go nuts looking for channels it will never find? The manual says "After selecting Antenna or Cable the recorder starts automatic tuning. This takes a couple of minutes to complete." I was just concerned as to what it might do if there's nothing there for it to tune to.

Second question - maybe someone with a satellite has tried this? If I connect to INPUT 1/AUTO START REC, I see from both the manual and other posts in this forum that there is a bit of a delay before the 640 starts to record, so you should set the timer on the sat receiver for a minute or two early. If I have two timers set on my sat receiver one right after the other, will the delay occur for both, or just for the first one? For example, I set a timer for 9:00 channel 362, then a second timer for 10:00 channel 360. I can start the first one at 8:58, but I can't start the second one for 9:58 or I might lose part of the first show. If the delay only happens the first time, it's not a problem, but if it happens each time, I'm thinking I should connect to INPUT3 and just set the timers manually. Any advice? Thanks.

suplex

08-27-06, 01:14 PM

Second question - maybe someone with a satellite has tried this? If I connect to INPUT 1/AUTO START REC, I see from both the manual and other posts in this forum that there is a bit of a delay before the 640 starts to record, so you should set the timer on the sat receiver for a minute or two early. If I have two timers set on my sat receiver one right after the other, will the delay occur for both, or just for the first one? For example, I set a timer for 9:00 channel 362, then a second timer for 10:00 channel 360. I can start the first one at 8:58, but I can't start the second one for 9:58 or I might lose part of the first show. If the delay only happens the first time, it's not a problem, but if it happens each time, I'm thinking I should connect to INPUT3 and just set the timers manually. Any advice? Thanks.

The difficulty would be the two different channels. If you wanted to record two separate shows...one from 8pm to 9pm, and the second from 9pm to 10pm, but on the same channel...then you would just record from 8pm to 10pm and then "Divide" the show later on the HDD, but with two separate channels I understand how you feel about setting it early.

I typically will record something from 7:59pm to 9:01pm (just to make sure, and if I am not recording something directly after it) and usually the first minute of the recording doesn't have anything significant from the previous show on it, so for your example you could start your first show for 8:58, and the second at 9:59 and it would probably be just fine.

What I need to do as a test is set the timer for two different shows on different channels where one show ends at 8:59pm and the second show starts at 8:59pm and then sit in front of my recorder right at that time to see what happens.

I would like to think the recorder would continue to record as if it was recording one show, but at the time of 8:59pm the channel would change on the front display and then yield two separate titles when it stops recording...even if it did it as one title it would be simple enough to split.

Another thing I do, is I have one of those clocks in my room that is always the exactly correct time (the kind that pick up a signal from Colorado), and once in a while I will reset the clock on my Pioneer 640 so it's the same as my Atomic Clock, this way I have a better chance of timer recordings being accurate.

Budget_HT

08-27-06, 02:31 PM

WendyM,

FYI, all of the DirecTV satellite receivers I have tried leave a video signal on all of the time, so the line input 1 "auto start rec" feature (on my older Piioneer 520H) is useless for satellite recording.

Most folks set timers synchronized on their satellite box (to select and view a channel) and on the corresponding line input on their DVD recorder.

In my case, I usually make timeshift recordings on one of my TiVo (DirecTV versions) units, and then archive to DVD if I have reason to.

WendyM

08-27-06, 02:46 PM

WendyM,

FYI, all of the DirecTV satellite receivers I have tried leave a video signal on all of the time, so the line input 1 "auto start rec" feature (on my older Piioneer 520H) is useless for satellite recording..

I think that happened - I set a timer for 3:15 to 3:30, then another for 3:30 to 3:45 and set AUTO RECORD. It was about 3:12 when I was doing this and I'm pretty sure the recorder started within about 30-45 seconds. I'm waiting for it to finish so I can go look at the length of the recording. It did change channels right on time, but if it wants to record all the time, it won't work. (BTW this is a StarChoice receiver).

Most folks set timers synchronized on their satellite box (to select and view a channel) and on the corresponding line input on their DVD recorder.

In my case, I usually make timeshift recordings on one of my TiVo (DirecTV versions) units, and then archive to DVD if I have reason to.

So I guess I'll have to set the timers on both the receiver and the recorder and hope I get them both going at the same times.... This is how I always did it with the VCR, so shouldn't be a big hardship, I guess.

On another note, I pressed help when I was doing the setup and nothing happened. I did go with "Do not set" and so far everything seems to be working well.

ACPewty

08-27-06, 09:24 PM

Hi Wendy: Yes, Do Not Set is the right way to go with satellite if using line inputs like L1. I also use Star Choice with my 640 and I set the timer on the sat receiver and the 640 separately. Works well.

On my older 421 receivers, you cannot use auto-record because they output a signal even when in standby mode. (The 640 always wants to record even when the satellite receiver is off.) I have ordered a newer 505 receiver but it hasn't arrived yet so I can't report on that yet.

Which model of Star Choice receiver do you have?

kjbawc

08-27-06, 10:36 PM

I've been accumulating quite a stack of DVD movies, made with my 640. I just discovered a simple, low tech way to make a cover, with the title on the edge, for most of them, and I thought I would share. Hopefully, it's not illegal... ;)

I use CD sized cases, full thickness, so there is room for a title on the edge, and the cases I use have a wrap-around plastic sleeve, fine for holding a piece of paper 4 3/4" x 5 7/8", covering one side, and the hinge edge. So, I go on www.allmovie.com, look up the film, click on "cast," and print the page. The size is automatically reduced, and with B&W printing, the dark color around the title disappears, so it is easy to read. Then, I just trim the sheet(s) to the right size, and stick them in the case sleeves. The info includes cast, director, running time, and year. Here's an example of the page I'm talking about:
http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll?p=avg&sql=1:38539~T2

It looks so much better than hand written labels on the edge, it's quick and easy!

BlairMartin

08-27-06, 11:42 PM

Has anyone checked to see if the 640H has a battery backup to hold settings in case of a power outage. Their DVD recorders did although there was never anything in the manual about it.:)

I was away from home for 10 days. Programs I wanted to record were all in the evenings. To reduce risk of damage from afternoon thunderstorms, I set a time switch to power up the 640H-S at 7 pm and cut power at 1 am. It worked perfectly. All shows were recorded, all indices were updated, and internal clock remained accurate from day to day.

Blair

Sean Nelson

08-28-06, 02:02 AM

...if I choose Antenna or Cable will the machine go nuts looking for channels it will never find? The manual says "After selecting Antenna or Cable the recorder starts automatic tuning. This takes a couple of minutes to complete." I was just concerned as to what it might do if there's nothing there for it to tune to.Yes, it will scan all of the channels to see which ones carry a valid signal, and that will take a few minutes. I don't have experience with what it does when it doesn't find any valid channels but I'd expect it to just carry on with the rest of the configuration questions such as setting the time.

dvdiva

08-29-06, 10:14 AM

Although I think the 640's manual entry timer recording screen is a great improvement over last year's models, in terms of being easy to use; I am disappointed that it will only let you set a timer up to 30 days in advance. This was not the case for last year's 531. When I get my Movie Network monthly guide, I like to set up the timer recordings in one sitting but I can't do that on the 640, as it will not let me enter the recordings that are more than 30 days away.

That being said, I love the fact that as you set up the timer recording on the 640, you get to choose the recording quality for each individual recording in a very discrete fashion (MN0 to the highest level). On last years's models, you have to choose a MN level that would apply as a default to all your timer recordings during the set up and your only options to set recording quality on the Timer Recording screen was your pre-set MN level, or LP, SP, XP, Auto. Now I can choose any MN level as I set up a Timer Recording, instead of having to reset the MN level on a separate screen using a different function.

wajo

08-29-06, 12:52 PM

WendyM

08-29-06, 01:14 PM

On my older 421 receivers, you cannot use auto-record because they output a signal even when in standby mode. (The 640 always wants to record even when the satellite receiver is off.) I have ordered a newer 505 receiver but it hasn't arrived yet so I can't report on that yet.

Which model of Star Choice receiver do you have?

I have the 640 hooked up to my StarChoice 305 receiver. I also have a 530 receiver, but that has its own DVR. I'm using the 640 as a backup to the sometimes unreliable 530, as well as to record PPVs (I hope, haven't tried this yet) because the Instant PPV doesn't work any more on my 530 receiver. I'm hoping to be able to record the PPVs, put them on DVD and then bring them downstairs to watch on the bigger widescreen TV that is hooked up to the 530. Since the PPVs are not in HighDef anyways, I don't think we'll be losing out by not recording them on the 530. We do record a lot of things in high def on the 530, but you run out of space very quickly using HD, so the 640 should be a good backup for the non-HD stuff.

I'm hoping the issue of having to set timers separately on the receiver and the recorder won't be too much of a pain, since most of what I set will be regular weekly shows that I can set once and forget about for most of the winter.

I would be interested to hear if the AUTO RECORD works on your new 505. If it does, an upgrade might be in order someday when they're having a sale at StarChoice.

ACPewty

08-29-06, 01:48 PM

I'm hoping the issue of having to set timers separately on the receiver and the recorder won't be too much of a pain, since most of what I set will be regular weekly shows that I can set once and forget about for most of the winter.
I'm a little confused after reading your posts. Did auto-record work with your 305 receiver? It sounds more like a manual timer was set when you talk about the recorder starting up a few minutes early, since when using auto-record it should only start up and record immediately after the receiver comes out of standby.

If you use the "Easy Record" feature for setting timers, it is very quick (and foolproof) and only takes a few button presses if the event is within the next few days.

Sounds like I made a wise decision to hold off on the 530.

I would be interested to hear if the AUTO RECORD works on your new 505. If it does, an upgrade might be in order someday when they're having a sale at StarChoice.I'll be hooking up the 505 this Thursday, so I will report back after that. I'm afraid you just missed Star Choice's sale, it ended on the 22nd.

WendyM

08-29-06, 07:29 PM

I'm a little confused after reading your posts. Did auto-record work with your 305 receiver? It sounds more like a manual timer was set when you talk about the recorder starting up a few minutes early, since when using auto-record it should only start up and record immediately after the receiver comes out of standby.

No, it didn't work with the 305, not in a way that you could use. I set a couple of timers on the sat receiver, turned it off. Then I set auto-record on the 640, turned it off. It was about 3:12 pm on both machines. The first timer was set for 3:15. The 640 started to record almost immediately. When I checked the recording afterwards, I had a couple of minutes of blank screen before the sat receiver turned itself on. The recordings after those blank couple of minutes were fine (I set a channel change for 3:30 and it worked OK). Also, when I went and checked it around 3:55 (I had set the timer on the 305 to stop at 3:45), it was still recording, I had to stop it manually. So I guess we have to say it didn't work if it recorded even while the sat receiver was turned off.

franky932

08-29-06, 10:02 PM

bobkart

08-29-06, 10:05 PM

franky932

08-30-06, 12:19 AM

tyvm ;) ;) ;) ;)

hr_Robson

08-30-06, 04:56 AM

Hi!

Recently I bought 640 as a part of Home Theater - Pioneer RCS 606H.

When I was trying it in a shop, I was pleasantly surprised with it's possibilities of playing any combination of DivX/Xvid files, even with showing the subtitles from .srt or .sub files with correct umlauted characters (specifics of Croatian language).

The thing I was not noticing was that the 640 was connected to a 42" plasma, and the size of the subtitles were ok. Large screen - large subtitles. :)

When I tried the same at my home (20" TV currently) subtitles were so small, I had to focus really hard to read them. It's quite frustrating. :mad:
Especially when there is no option if increasing the size of subtitles.

Other thing which I find almost frustrating is "disabled" USB port. You can use it to listen MP3s from it, preview your photos, but not playing the divx movies.

On the other side JPG photo viewing is unusable. Picture loading is so frustratingly slow, i don't know is it a firmware fault (feature ;) ).You can do it from any media - DVD, CD, USB or internal HDD it's always the same speed. For a 5 MP picture it takes some good 10 secs (or even more) to load the picture.

If you put DVD -R +R struggle between companies aside, it's not fair to disable certain functions from DVD+R reproduction. You can not play DivX or MP3 or JPG files from DVD+R or +RW media. Only thing supported is DVD Video format.
I even did some test, and tried to fool the 640, but without success. Just couldn't play any Divx from DVD+R or +RW.

If anybody has any informations and/or experiences about overriding and dealing with any of these "features" it would be mostly appreciated to share them.

Sean Nelson

08-30-06, 11:12 AM

On the other side JPG photo viewing is unusable. Picture loading is so frustratingly slow, i don't know is it a firmware fault (feature ;) ).You can do it from any media - DVD, CD, USB or internal HDD it's always the same speed. For a 5 MP picture it takes some good 10 secs (or even more) to load the picture.5MP pictures are really, really huge. Unless you're planning to make large (8x10" or larger) prints of these, or you want to be able to crop or zoom in on some detail in the picture, it's really a waste to use such high resolution. It just takes up more space and slows down display and editing options.

As an example, a 5MP image has over 3000 pixels of resolution horizontally, over twice as many pixels as most consumer HD equipment (ie, camcorders are around 1440 pixels). There are no displays that you can buy that show the full resolution of such an image.

Not trying to defend the Pioneer's performance here, just pointing out that using full resolution on modern digital camereas is usually overkill.

HealeyGuy

08-30-06, 11:44 AM

franky932

08-30-06, 02:22 PM

Yes you can watch either the same Title you are recording, but at an earlier time in the recording (Chase Play) or an entirely different Title off the HDD while another program is being recorded to the HDD.

that is what i found in pionner web site

Chase Play: Prime Time Starts Now
Thanks to the Hard Disk Drive, Chase Play lets you watch, stop, or pause a show — WHILE you're recording it. Amazing, but true.

not mention to record a program on HDD and watch a totally different recorded title on the HDD

i am confused !!!!!
tyvm

franky932

08-30-06, 02:39 PM

suppose to buy in 1 week or two the pionner 640

1 question : can i record on the HDD a program( source: cable or dish( satellite))and watch someting i record 1 day or 1 week before on the HDD?

im not sure about the CHASE thing : is it on the same source and channel? or like my question?

tyvm :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

if i can do it....... HOW? i read the manuel and can not fin it?(
1 question : can i record on the HDD a program( source: cable or dish( satellite))and watch something i record 1 day or 1 week before on the HDD?

tyvm all :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

franky932

08-30-06, 02:41 PM

Sean Nelson

08-30-06, 03:22 PM

if i can do it....... HOW? i read the manuel and can not fin it?(
1 question : can i record on the HDD a program( source: cable or dish( satellite))and watch something i record 1 day or 1 week before on the HDD? Start your recording (ie, press the "Record" button on the remote, or wait for a scheduled recording to start). Once the recording has started, press the "Disc Navigator" button on the remote. Use the up/down arrow keys to select the previously recorded show, or the currently recording show, and hit "Enter""Chase play" is what you get if you watch the currently recording show as you're recording it.

wajo

08-30-06, 03:28 PM

You might have to wait for several minutes to "chase-play" a recording in-progress. (The recording has to get a "head start." 15 minutes comes to mind, but it may not be that long...the display will let you know if it's too early to start playback.)

richardfalco

08-30-06, 05:03 PM

. You can not play DivX or MP3 or JPG files from DVD+R or +RW media. Only thing supported is DVD Video format.
I even did some test, and tried to fool the 640, but without success. Just couldn't play any Divx from DVD+R or +RW.

If anybody has any informations and/or experiences about overriding and dealing with any of these "features" it would be mostly appreciated to share them.

I also have the same problem...along with some DivX movies not playing at all, the ones that do play will only work when burned on DVD-R/-RW media. I have been unable to get any DivX movies to play from DVD+R/+RW discs...

RF

wajo

08-30-06, 07:46 PM

Hi all, I am having a problem playing some DivX movies....

They play fine on my computer, but when I try them in the Pioneer, I get only audio, and no picture...

Most Divx movies play fine, but some do not...is this some sort of a copy protection thing? Or encoding thing?

Also, I usually burn several DivX movies on either a DVD-RW or DVR-R, and sometimes after I insert the disk and try to go to Disc Nav, it says "No Disc". If I turn the machine off, and then back on again, it will work fine!
Possibly the way it is burned on the disk? (I read something about the machine not being able to recognize disks that were burned with the UDF file system?)

I'm curious about DivX files and the problems people report in playing them on the 640.

On "DivX video compatibility" (Pg 12), the manual states: "This recorder can play DivX video files burned on CD-R/-RW/-ROM discs." Wherever DivX is mentioned, it's in a ref. to playing CDs, not DVDs.

Nowhere in the manual are "DivX" and "DVD" mentioned together.

On pg 13, it says all DivX files must have .avi or .divx extensions, and "all files with the .avi extension are recognized as MPEG4, but not all of these are necessarily DivX video files and therefore may not be playable on this recorder."
???:confused:

franky932

08-31-06, 12:29 AM

Start your recording (ie, press the "Record" button on the remote, or wait for a scheduled recording to start). Once the recording has started, press the "Disc Navigator" button on the remote. Use the up/down arrow keys to select the previously recorded show, or the currently recording show, and hit "Enter""Chase play" is what you get if you watch the currently recording show as you're recording it.

tyvm SEAN :) :) :) :)

hr_Robson

08-31-06, 07:10 AM

The Pioneer has to resample that 5 mp image to not exceed 720 x 480. That takes time. Use your computer's photo editing application to export the photos at 720 x 480 and use those in the Pioneer and you'll see the images come up quickly. That resolution, however, would negate the benefit of any zooming, so you might choose 1440 x 960 for your export. I believe the Pioneer will start to process the next image while the current one is displayed so that will help the slide show feature move along.

That's not the point. Then I have to loose extra time and media (CD/DVD) to have usable "640 previewing" ones. For me practical thing is to use CD/DVDs I downloaded and stored (backed up) with my pictures. The feature like that should be practical, not to give you overkill in time for preparing viewable pictures.

But anyway, 640 is not intended to do that. I was just disappointed with it's feature.

hr_Robson

08-31-06, 07:19 AM

On "DivX video compatibility" (Pg 12), the manual states: "This recorder can play DivX video files burned on CD-R/-RW/-ROM discs." Wherever DivX is mentioned, it's in a ref. to playing CDs, not DVDs. Nowhere in the manual are "DivX" and "DVD" mentioned together.

You're right for the manual, but you can play them from -R & -RW medias. I did some tests, and it showed that +R,+RW had it just disabled. (I managed to prepare +R, +RW discs on my PC for recording on 640, even managed to initialize media on PC, did some recording on 640, did some recording on the PC, and than continued using same DVD+RW on 640. - for Video Recording not DivX)

Same thing with USB, you are simply not allowed to play DivX from it.

On pg 13, it says all DivX files must have .avi or .divx extensions, and "all files with the .avi extension are recognized as MPEG4, but not all of these are necessarily DivX video files and therefore may not be playable on this recorder."
???:confused:
It's ok, because .AVI can be anything. Not only DivX or XVid. 640 does not have all codecs supported, just Divx.

richardfalco

08-31-06, 06:21 PM

On "DivX video compatibility" (Pg 12), the manual states: "This recorder can play DivX video files burned on CD-R/-RW/-ROM discs." Wherever DivX is mentioned, it's in a ref. to playing CDs, not DVDs.

Nowhere in the manual are "DivX" and "DVD" mentioned together.

On pg 13, it says all DivX files must have .avi or .divx extensions, and "all files with the .avi extension are recognized as MPEG4, but not all of these are necessarily DivX video files and therefore may not be playable on this recorder."
???:confused:

I haven't tried all the "unplayable" DivX files on a CD-R/RW, but I did try and burn some of them on a CD-RW with the same results...still unplayable...I get the audio, but no video. I might try and rename the files and with a .divx extension and see if that helps...

Just can't seem to find a reason why some work and some won't on a DVD. There doesn't seem to be a common reason that I can find.

RF

wajo

08-31-06, 06:43 PM

I might try and rename the files and with a .divx extension and see if that helps...
"Rename"? What extension have your files had up to now??? And does that mean your burned files were not really in .divx format to start with and you were trying to fool the 640?

ACPewty

09-01-06, 12:29 AM

I would be interested to hear if the AUTO RECORD works on your new 505. If it does, an upgrade might be in order someday when they're having a sale at StarChoice.Well I can report that autorecord doesn't work with the 505 either. No big deal for me as I prefer to use the easy timer because I don't have to worry about forgetting to set auto-record mode.

BTW, recording widescreen HD content with the 640 works great...better than I expected. Naturally not as good as HD, but very good.

Signal-Green

09-01-06, 01:01 PM

I have my 1st minor problem with the 640. When I go into the copy screen, it no longer gives me the option to "continue with previous copy list". I wanted to make more DVD's from the last list. I did have the 640 off since I created the list, but not unplugged. This wasn't a problem the 1st two months.
Can I get the copy list back?
My HDD is 95% full; 3 hrs(SP) left. But I don't think that would be the problem.

Follow up question: When backing up a DVD onto the HDD, does it create an exact duplicate of the DVD?(with thumb nails, and chapter stops)

bobkart

09-01-06, 03:16 PM

If you delete a Title that's mentioned on the Copy List then the Copy List will go away I believe. It's possible that other kinds of changes to the Titles in the Copy List will reset it. You can just quickly generate the Copy List again though by going through the same procedure you did to generate it the first time, assuming all the Titles are still on the HDD.

Signal-Green

09-01-06, 04:16 PM

I didn't make changes to any of the titles. The 640 hasn't saved a copy list in a week.
You might've guessed from my above post that I don't delete anything until I have to. Also, I do my editing in the copy list(I don't cut up the originals) so I don't fragment the HDD(I heard de-fragging doesn't work well. Am I too anal?) So, that copy list had all the editing. :confused:

wajo

09-01-06, 06:46 PM

Not sure if you can "resurrect" a lost Copy List, but if it's a matter of the HDD being too "full," you can check that by deleting something from the HDD. I'd start with any Disc Backup data still being stored...since that is not directly playable on the HDD, it can only be accessed and "seen" thru the Disc Backup menu. If you find some Backup stuff there, delete it first?

I'm not sure where editing/Play List instructions are stored. It could be in some flash memory or on the HDD? If on the HDD and even if it's just a "record" of the changes desired in the original, it might be something that takes up HDD space but isn't added to the space remaining?

If you delete some recorded material and then the Copy List shows back up, that might prove that Copy Lists are not overwritten by actual recordings. If it doesn't show up, then we might have to assume that Copy Lists can be "overwritten" by actual recordings on the HDD...and 95% full might be a "warning" sign to us all to offload some recordings???

GoIrishinKW

09-01-06, 08:26 PM

I just purchased the 640h-s last week, and i love it. However I really want to make backup copy of the DVD movies I bought. But the 640hs can't copy it due to copyright. I don't mean to violate the copyright. Only very few movies deserve reviewing. I bought some and want to make backup copies in case the disc broken. How can I do that?

My friend told me he would burn DVD Decrypter and DVD Shrink on a dvd for me and to load them on this unit, but I wanna know if that will work first. I dont have a dvd burner on my computer.

Any help guys

bobkart

09-01-06, 09:25 PM

Yeah it won't copy commercial DVDs even if they are not Copy Protected (CSS or MacroVision).

If you make a copy via PC, then you'd have the copy you want. But if the disc you copy from is CSS protected, then you'd be violating the DMCA, regardless of if the copy is just for Fair Use.

Sean Nelson

09-02-06, 01:21 AM

Also, I do my editing in the copy list(I don't cut up the originals) so I don't fragment the HDD(I heard de-fragging doesn't work well. Am I too anal?) So, that copy list had all the editing. :confused:If you still have the DVD you burned from the first time then you can use the "disc backup"function to make another copy without having to re-do your edits.

azdevilcat

09-02-06, 08:56 AM

Sean Nelson

09-02-06, 11:10 AM

Does anyone have a chart showing exact recording times using mn settings for dual layer? Thank you in advance.Multiply the number of minutes that you can fit on a single-layer disk by 1.8 to give you the dual-layer capacity. See this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8202723&&#post8202723).

suplex

09-02-06, 12:11 PM

I have tried to read all of the pages in this thread, but have been unable to find exactly what I'm looking for. As some have mentioned, I am having a hard time determining the mn settings when recording to dual layer. The chart in the users manual has the times for single layer, but not dual layer. I have wasted a few dvd dl's which stopped recording early because the setting was not correct.

Does anyone have a chart showing exact recording times using mn settings for dual layer? Thank you in advance.

azdevilcat:

I made a chart myself to figure out exactly what you have asked for and I will type in the list here. You will see numbers before and after a colon " : " the first number is Hours, and the second is Minutes.

I got these numbers by actually putting a DVD+R DL in the tray and then changing the speed setting and writing each number down.

Multiplying a single layered DVD by 1.8 would work, but you know how when the manual says a specific MN setting will yield a cartain amount of time and then when you put a disc in the tray it gives you a few extra minutes, my list would include the extra minutes for the time that you wind up getting.

MN-32 = 01:53
MN-31 = 02:01
MN-30 = 02:10
MN-29 = 02:19
MN-28 = 02:29
MN-27 = 02:38
MN-26 = 02:47
MN-25 = 02:57
MN-24 = 03:06
MN-23 = 03:15
MN-22 = 03:25
MN-21 = 03:43
MN-20 = 04:02
MN-19 = 04:21
MN-18 = 04:39
MN-17 = 04:58
MN-16 = 05:17
MN-15 = 05:35
MN-14 = 05:54
MN-13 = 06:12
MN-12 = 06:31
MN-11 = 06:50
MN-10 = 07:08
MN-09 = 07:27
MN-08 = 08:23
MN-07 = 09:19
MN-06 = 11:11
MN-05 = 13:03

Then MN-04 to MN-01 all gave the same results = 14:54

azdevilcat

09-02-06, 07:54 PM

Suplex -

Thanks for the assistance with the Dual Layer MN recording times. I greatly appreciate it!

SAH

09-04-06, 09:08 AM

I would like to be able to use the L1 input on the back of the 640, but not for the usual timed recording from an STB. I would like to use it for occasional input from a VCR and another DVD player to make backups of DVD's to take in the car. The other back input (L3) is connected to my Tivo and I do not want to change that.

Does anyone know if I could hook up one of the manual AV switch boxes that have 4 inputs, and just leave it on a blank input when not in use? Would it need to be a special type of box? My guess is that it should be manual and not one of the auto sensing ones.

It seems from reading the manual that as long as it does not detect a signal it would not try to record. If this sounds feasible, then when I do want to record, do I just use the normal method of selecting input, rec mode and recording length?

I am asking as currently I am using the front inputs to do this and I don't like having the cables hanging there or having to connect and reconnect all the time.

kjbawc

09-04-06, 03:11 PM

Very interesting, I didn't realize it was switchable! Thanks for the info. I think I will rewire, using L1, and only switch it on when I need it. :D

wajo

09-04-06, 03:20 PM

Very interesting, I didn't realize it was switchable! Thanks for the info. I think I will rewire, using L1, and only switch it on when I need it. :D
Sorry, kjbawc, I read the instructions wrong. I'm going to delete my original post and go back to the drawing board. :o

wajo

09-04-06, 03:44 PM

I think I've got the "Auto Start Rec" feature figured out now.

STB user CAN use TIMER REC programs on L1 Input as they always have: set STB and DVR to come on at same time, etc.

I've been feeding L1 a constant signal from my VCR/DVD combo unit and it DOES NOT come on just by sensing that signal. The "Auto Start Rec" feature is a separate Timer Rec option that must be set ON thru the Timer Recording menu...it's the 4th choice. If you select Auto Start Rec ON thru that menu option, the DVR will start recording when it senses a signal, as advertised. If the signal is constant, as with some STBs, the recording will start almost immediately.

However, when you set a TIMER REC program to record thru L1, the DVR will NOT come on until the set time, as in a normal timed program, even if it's being fed a constant signal from another source!

kjbawc

09-04-06, 04:35 PM

Hmmm... well, that does make it switchable, in a way. You could program a dummy timer record program for the future, and only delete it when you want the L1 input to do its autorecord thing. But still not what I had hoped, because you couldn't program all your timer recordings to L1, and then just switch it to autorecord when you want that. Oh, well...

wajo

09-04-06, 04:49 PM

If you use that 4th Timer Rec option, the DVR will turn on and record the very next time it senses a signal...not sure how much practical use it really is. I haven't tested it, but I think once you set Auto Start Rec, it may continue to come on and record whenever it senses a signal on L!? It will only work as an "auto" record feature if you have a STB that doesn't pass a signal constantly thru its "Out to VCR" connection, and if you don't turn it on for watching or other activity?

But, at least, people CAN use L1 in a normal manner for other Timer Rec programs, including those coordinated with a STB.

Signal-Green

09-04-06, 10:27 PM

I've gotten this message: "HDD is being repaired" twice after turning it on. What's this about? It's not referred to in the manual.

Sean Nelson

09-04-06, 10:29 PM

I've gotten this message: "HDD is being repaired" twice after turning it on. What's this about? It's not referred to in the manual.Did anything unusual happen when you powered off the unit prior to getting this message? It sounds like the sort of message you might get if the unit lost power while it was in the middle of doing something.

wajo

09-04-06, 10:36 PM

ONE reason you can get this message is if the power "blips" or is cut while recording...it appears when you turn the machine back on.

If you get power blips often and record a lot, you might need the $40 APC Battery Backup from Wal-Mart or another model. It's a great surge protector as well. (The Wal-Mart unit is good for a maintaining a recorder for awhile, but check your equipment specs for max. wattage used...it "should" also be able to power your TV long enough to shut things down normally in a power outage.)

SAH

09-04-06, 10:56 PM

Geordon

09-05-06, 08:23 AM

If anyone is still on the fence, One Call has the player 25% less than normal price before shipping. Too bad I placed my order last week from another vendor.

alan linell

09-05-06, 08:48 AM

Hello. This is my first AVS post. First off, I want to say that I've enjoyed this entire thread. I've wanted to switch from VCR to DVD recording, and have ordered the 640. The posters have given me a wealth of information, and have been patient, courteous and very helpful. I've copied many of the hints to a document for future reference and I'm sure I'll be going back through this thread once I start using the DVDR. I do have a newbe-type question, but first some background info: I have lived in an analogue home theater world. My display is an 11 yr. old Mitsubishi 40" tube, and is still producing what I consider beautiful pictures. My viewing taste is almost exclusively cinema. I'll watch well over 300 films a year, many of which will be older movies. I watch some sports, very little network TV and no gaming. My recording needs are primarily conversion of video tape, and archiving uncut films mostly from Turner Classic Movies, but I'm sure I'll make off the air recordings that will require some editing.

I noticed that Pioneer, on their web page for the 640, cautions that it contains an analogue tuner and as such will need a converted signal after the February 2009 change-over date. I do plan on having an HDTV by then, but as far as recording, what are my options going to be at that time? Will delivery systems such as cable and satellite provide a conversion option to analogue or will a stand alone converter that is promised be the only option? By the way, I have read the sticky about High Definition signals and am aware that the recorder will not record high def. Am I correct in saying that down-conversion from HD to SD and conversion from digital to analogue signals are two completely different functions and require different equipment? I'm a bit lost in this area. Thanks for any help.

ACPewty

09-05-06, 09:52 AM

Will delivery systems such as cable and satellite provide a conversion option to analogue or will a stand alone converter that is promised be the only option? By the way, I have read the sticky about High Definition signals and am aware that the recorder will not record high def. Am I correct in saying that down-conversion from HD to SD and conversion from digital to analogue signals are two completely different functions and require different equipment? I'm a bit lost in this area. Thanks for any help.Welcome Alan :)
I expect during this transition period (which will probably last at least a decade,) most equipment will include D-A conversion with the appropriate connections. I use my 640 to record from satellite which is 100% digital and includes some HD channels and it does a great job although of course is down-converting from HD to SD. I expect most digital cable boxes also already include this functionality or we would hear about the problems here!
You're right, the conversion from HD to SD is a different thing from the conversion from digital to analog, but I expect both will be included in most equipment like satellite and cable boxes for some time to come. I think we'll all have a big enough grace period using D-A conversion until the prices come down for the HD recorders.

David Susilo

09-05-06, 09:56 AM

If I may add, by 2009, you'll have bought a new upgraded DVR. The lifespan on these things from my personal experience with the past 5 DVRs and DVD recorders are 3 years max.

Sean Nelson

09-05-06, 10:02 AM

Welcome to the forum, Alan!

You shouldn't be overly concerned about the upcoming digital conversion unless your goal is to be able to record high definition signals in high definition (which today's DVDRs obviously won't do). Because of the huge installed base of analogue TVs, equipment to convert digital broadcasts to analogue will be readily available. I understand the US federal government will be giving credit to people to help them buy digital tuners which output analogue signals for older TVs - these would also be compatible with today's DVRs.

Downconversion from HD to SD and digital-to-analogue conversion are two different concepts, but any digital tuner that outputs a 480i analogue signal will be doing both functions. It would be possible to build a tuner that does the digital-to-analogue conversion and outputs it's signal in high definition (without downconversion) over a component connection, but I'd be very surprised if you could find such a box that didn't also have old-style 480i composite and S-Video outputs carrying a downconverted signal as well.

The one area of caution would be if you want to schedule recordings of over the air (OTA) digital broadcasts. With an external tuner, your Pioneer will no longer have the ability after 2009 to automatically change to the required digital channel. So you'd want to find an external tuner which has the ability to be programmed to turn on and tune to a given channel at a scheduled time.

This same issue exists for cable and satellite customers today. The set-top boxes (STBs) used by cable and satellite subscribers convert digital signals to analogue for viewing on TVs and recording by VCRs or DVDRs. Most of these boxes can be programmed to automatically turn on and switch to a desired channel at a given time. Some STBs can also user infrared "blasters" to control a DVDR, and some DVDRs have IR blasters to control the STBs. With IR blaster control you only have to set a schedule in the DVDR or the STB, rather than having to do it in both places at once. This is the exactly the same situation we'll be in when OTA broadcasts switch to digital and we use external tuners to pull them in.

Geordon

09-05-06, 10:34 AM

alan linell

09-05-06, 10:38 AM

Thanks for the warm welcome and such quick responses. I'm now pretty clear on the D to A conversion issue. I've noted from other posts that the whole timing operation is fairly involved, and I guess it will become clearer when I get hands-on experience. Right now I have an 8 yr. old DirecTV receiver connected by S-Video to my S-VHS recorder. I keep the VCR on Line 1 and manually set the date/time when I want to record something. I also set the Satellite receiver's timing function when I want to record a program (mostly to make sure the correct channel is being recorded). I use basic cable for local stations and broadband. I'm not sure what route I'll take when I change to an HDTV.

David, I know what you mean about planned obsolescence with these machines. I will say that I still use my original 5 yr. old Toshiba 3109 DVD player at a vacation cabin. I have gone through I don't know how many VCRs since my first JVC in 1978.

wajo

09-05-06, 10:41 AM

My 640H-S is on its way. I always use DVD+R for my PC, so don't have any DVD-R. It appears the disk of choice for the Pioneer is Verbatim 16x DVD-R, which I am not against using. However, I would like to buy shiny silver thermal for labeling with my disk printer, and want some less expensive options. The best price I have seen on Vertabim 16x shiny (95203) is about $.41 shipped per disk in quantities of 200, whereas I have seen Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD-R (TYG02) shiny for about $.34 shipped.

How popular is the -R TY for this player? I know the +R get rave reviews for PC burners.

Thanks.
If you can get a small batch of +R, good brand, those should work fine in your 640. Many people with Pioneers could only use -R/RW up to this year's model (640), which is multi-format...that may explain some of its "popularity."

If you get good results from your "test batch" of +R, you won't have to change from your personal favorite?

wajo

09-05-06, 10:47 AM

Right now I have an 8 yr. old DirecTV receiver connected by S-Video to my S-VHS recorder. I keep the VCR on Line 1 and manually set the date/time when I want to record something. I also set the Satellite receiver's timing function when I want to record a program (mostly to make sure the correct channel is being recorded). I use basic cable for local stations and broadband. I'm not sure what route I'll take when I change to an HDTV.
Your new DVR can take the place of your current VCR and you can program it the exact same way, if you want. If you still want the VCR in your system for transferring tapes to DVDs, you can connect it to the DVR thru Line 3. I think your conversion to DVD recording will be relatively easy!

Not sure how your VCR is connected to your TV, but you may want to connect the new DVR via S-Video or Component for max. PQ? Your TV, being so old, may only have composite connections; if so, your PQ will still be excellent...mine is connected that way and my PQ is better thru the DVR than directly to my 51" projection TV (better tuner and PQ circuitry in the DVR).

alan linell

09-05-06, 11:40 AM

Not sure how your VCR is connected to your TV, but you may want to connect the new DVR via S-Video or Component for max. PQ?

Wabjxo, the TV doesn't have component inputs, but has 2 S-Video inputs. Currently I have my existing DVD player and the S-VCR connected thru S-Video. I'll replace the VCR with the 640 and use the VCR for tape conversion. As been suggested, I'll continue to use the DVD player to prolong the laser life of the DVDR since I clock 600+ hours a year playing DVDs. I imagine once an HDTV is bought, I'll have all sorts of new purchase temptations, but that's down the road.

Ol'BK

09-05-06, 11:51 AM

Earthanoid

09-05-06, 12:08 PM

Thanks for all the great info on this thread, it helped me a lot in deciding which DVR to buy. I picked up a DVR-640H-s this weekend, and so far I'm very happy with my purchase.

I have one question though: Can I set up the unit so that it can change channels independently of the STB? I am using Time Warner Cable in New York. I know that the unit doesn't have an IR blaster, but is there a way to make the internal tuner change the channels?

I have my unit set up like the "cable 2" option in the manual; the cable from the wall goes to the STB, and there is a cable running from the STB to the unit. When I first turned the unit on, when it came time to select the channel source (antenna or cable or do not set), I chose "do not set." After the setup was done, the unit was able to change channels on its own. I then looked up the options in the manual, and decided to rerun the initial set up, and this time chose "cable" as the channel source. After it finished, the unit was no longer able to change channels; I can now only change channels via the STB.

I tried reseting the unit by holding down the stop button and turning the unit off, but when I turn it back on, it still remembers the channels. I tried changing the connections to "cable 1" from the manual, but most of the channels come through scrambled. My wife, who was in the room as I was setting up the unit, tells me that I was imagining things and that I was never able to change the channel via the unit itself. I realize that the DVR-640H-s doesn't have an IR blaster, so now I'm starting to think that she's correct.

I'd appreciate any information on this issue.

wajo

09-05-06, 12:22 PM

Digital service?

Since your 640 is receiving its signal thru the STB via RF/coax(?), it can't independently tune any channels if your service is digital...the 640's tuner is analog.

Some people who have digital service with some analog channels use a splitter to feed the STB and 640 independently from the cable feed. That way, they can tune the analog channels with the 640. They then record on the 640 by connecting the "Out to VCR" connection on the STB to one of the Line Inputs of the 640.

Depending on which setup you end up with, the 640's source setting (antenna, cable, do not set) can be made to match that setup.

ACPewty

09-05-06, 12:24 PM

I copied a couple of shows from hard drive onto one DVD with the recording mode set to "Optimize." In the menu of the resulting DVD, the thumbnails were different from what I'd selected when editing the shows while setting up the Copy List. Any ideas why this happened? Thanks.When you select "Optimize", you are re-encoding the recording to fit the DVD in real-time. Just like chapter markers, this is probably why the thumbnails changed, as the position in the resulting file will have changed, unless the optimization resulted in no change in which case a high-speed copy would have been better. (High-speed copies will preserve the thumbnails you selected.)

Here's what the manual says about chapter markers. I believe the same would apply to thumbnails since both are just pointers:

pg 80: When real-time copying from the HDD to a Video mode DVD-R/-RW or DVD+R/+RW, the chapter markers in the original material are not copied. Chapter markers are put into the copy at intervals, according to the Auto Chapter settings (see also Auto Chapter (Video) and Auto Chapter (DVD+R/+RW) on page 115)

Also, I realize you weren't copying from DVD to HDD, but I believe the following may apply to any real-time copies:

pg 82: Copying to the HDD
• Thumbnail picture markers and chapter
markers for the Disc Navigator are
copied, but their position in the copy
may be slightly changed from the
original.

Aside from the pursuit of the best possible pq, this is another argument for ensuring you record things to the hdd using the right bitrate in the first place. If you don't have to re-encode, you can use high-speed copy to retain the best pq as well as your thumbnails and chapter markers. (One of the main reasons I prefer the Pioneer: you can manually set the best bitrate that will fit the DVD after editing out commercials, then high-speed copy from HDD to DVD. You just have to put a bit of thought into it in advance if you know you will be editing out commercials etc.)

Earthanoid

09-05-06, 01:05 PM

Yes, I believe my service is digital with some analog channels, so I think that answers my question. When I connect the cable from the wall and connect it directly to the unit, I do get some channels that aren't scrambled. When I first set up the machine, I must have been switching between the analog channels with the unit.

Thanks for the quick response. I'm just glad I can tell my wife I wasn't imagining things. :)

Sean Nelson

09-05-06, 04:20 PM

In the menu of the resulting DVD, the thumbnails were different from what I'd selected when editing the shows while setting up the Copy List. Any ideas why this happened?Were they a lot different? On the Pioneer 633 and 533 (2005 models), the thumbnails have to come from I-frames (which occur every 1/2 second) - so I've gotten into the habit of making sure that when I choose a frame for a thumbnail it's timestamp ends in ".00" or ".15".

Ol'BK

09-05-06, 04:55 PM

Were they a lot different? On the Pioneer 633 and 533 (2005 models), the thumbnails have to come from I-frames (which occur every 1/2 second) - so I've gotten into the habit of making sure that when I choose a frame for a thumbnail it's timestamp ends in ".00" or ".15".

The first thumbnail was slightly off in time from the point I'd picked (roughly 10 minutes into the 135 minute total length of the play list). The second was greatly off from the point I'd picked (roughly 80 minutes into total). I think ACPewty is correct. When the 640 is optimizing the recording to fit the DVD, it changes the timebase so that the times stored for the thumbnails bring up different frames than intended. The farther you are into the recording, the greater the timebase error.

kjbawc

09-05-06, 10:57 PM

I was FFing a +R DL disc, and discovered that FF4 with that disc was way slower than FF4 with a -R SL disc, more like FF2 would be with -R. Anyone else notice this? Is it due to +R, or due to DL, or what?

kjbawc

09-05-06, 11:39 PM

My 640H-S is on its way. I always use DVD+R for my PC, so don't have any DVD-R. It appears the disk of choice for the Pioneer is Verbatim 16x DVD-R, which I am not against using. However, I would like to buy shiny silver thermal for labeling with my disk printer, and want some less expensive options. The best price I have seen on Vertabim 16x shiny (95203) is about $.41 shipped per disk in quantities of 200, whereas I have seen Taiyo Yuden 8x DVD-R (TYG02) shiny for about $.34 shipped.

How popular is the -R TY for this player? I know the +R get rave reviews for PC burners.

Thanks.

I've been getting my Verbatim 16x -Rs on sale, at various places like Office Max, and pay $14 - 15 for 50 discs, so about $.30 each, no shipping. Just read the weekly adds, and stock up when they are cheap.

ncaahoops

09-06-06, 02:04 AM

Welcome to the forum, Alan!
This same issue exists for cable and satellite customers today. The set-top boxes (STBs) used by cable and satellite subscribers convert digital signals to analogue for viewing on TVs and recording by VCRs or DVDRs. Most of these boxes can be programmed to automatically turn on and switch to a desired channel at a given time. Some STBs can also user infrared "blasters" to control a DVDR, and some DVDRs have IR blasters to control the STBs. With IR blaster control you only have to set a schedule in the DVDR or the STB, rather than having to do it in both places at once. This is the exactly the same situation we'll be in when OTA broadcasts switch to digital and we use external tuners to pull them in.

For people who now split the RF signal off the wall, does this mean they will have to rent an additional box to replace each RF split, or will they offer some backward compatibility for the traditional "sub-100" channels? The cable/sat companies may use this as a great opportunity to sell more STBs per customer?

kjbawc

09-06-06, 02:12 AM

The cable companies will have to replace ALL of their older boxes that tune analog for the lower channels, before they can drop the analog channels, AND they will have to provide all-digital STBs to ALL of their subscribers, including those who now use no STB. I think that will take a few years, to say the least. Then, we will probably have to rent a second STB to supply our DVDRs, if we want to record something not tuned on the one we already have. Or, prehaps we will be able to use DVDRs with QAM tuners, or cable cards.

Sean Nelson

09-06-06, 11:18 AM

For people who now split the RF signal off the wall, does this mean they will have to rent an additional box to replace each RF split, or will they offer some backward compatibility for the traditional "sub-100" channels? The cable/sat companies may use this as a great opportunity to sell more STBs per customer?With a digital cable signal you either need one STB per cable outlet, or you need AV equipment that can tune the digital signal that the cable company is sending (assuming the cable co. elects to send non-premium channels unscrambled).

Even with the 2009 digital mandate, the cable companies are under no legal obligation to stop transmitting analogue signals because they're contained within the cable system and don't interfere with the public RF spectrum. The cable companies would LIKE to stop analogue transmission because digital is more efficient, but it would mean forcing all of their customers to buy STBs. If the customers are going to have to buy something to continue service, it opens a window of opportunity for them to choose satellite service instead, so it's a risk for the cable companies.

Satellite services are unaffected by the whole thing because they're already all-digital. The only impact would be a new generation of satellite STBs to output digital (ie, HDMI) signals for compatibility with the new generation of TV sets, but people with older TVs and existing STBs wouldn't be forced to upgrade to those.

Even though the 2009 mandate doesn't HAVE to affect the status quo with cable systems, it will force a lot of change in the consumer electronics industry and the cable companies can use it as an excuse for forcing everyone to upgrade to STBs.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Sean Nelson

09-06-06, 11:24 AM

The cable companies will have to replace ALL of their older boxes that tune analog for the lower channels, before they can drop the analog channels...Only if they don't have enough bandwidth to digitally broadcast everthing in the spectrum above the analogue band. Cable systems with the bandwidth can broadcast their entire lineup digitally above the analogue band and still be compatible with older analogue-capable STBs. So owners of existing STBs do not necessarily have to buy new ones.

The only hard limitation is that existing analogue subscribers with no STBs must buy them before the analogue channels are dropped (or those subscribers will rapidly become non-subscribers! ;)).

Signal-Green

09-06-06, 09:10 PM

How popular is the -R TY for this player?
I've used 30 of those flawlessly on the 640. But they're 8x. I hear that anything above 8x isn't good.

Some people who have digital service with some analog channels use a splitter to feed the STB and 640 independently from the cable feed
Just curious. Why split the cable? It can cut the quality. Is it so that you don't need to leave the STB on for Timer recordings?

bobkart

09-06-06, 09:22 PM

Splitting the cable allows you to record one channel while watching another (through the STB or via the TV's tuner).

You can split the cable up to a point without noticeable signal degradation. The signal is already split if you have more than one cable coming from the wall. RF Amplifiers are the way to get the signal level back up to a reasonable level, but obviously amplification isn't perfect, so those too can add to signal degradation. There's no perfect solution, until you get to digital signals.

Geordon

09-06-06, 10:40 PM

I've used 30 of those flawlessly on the 640. But they're 8x. I hear that anything above 8x isn't good.

I have heard the same in general about 16x TY. That is why I mentioned 8x TY. For 16x, will go with Verbatim. Thanks for the feedback.

ncaahoops

09-07-06, 06:17 PM

With a digital cable signal you either need one STB per cable outlet, or you need AV equipment that can tune the digital signal that the cable company is sending (assuming the cable co. elects to send non-premium channels unscrambled).

Even with the 2009 digital mandate, the cable companies are under no legal obligation to stop transmitting analogue signals because they're contained within the cable system and don't interfere with the public RF spectrum. The cable companies would LIKE to stop analogue transmission because digital is more efficient, but it would mean forcing all of their customers to buy STBs. If the customers are going to have to buy something to continue service, it opens a window of opportunity for them to choose satellite service instead, so it's a risk for the cable companies.

Satellite services are unaffected by the whole thing because they're already all-digital. The only impact would be a new generation of satellite STBs to output digital (ie, HDMI) signals for compatibility with the new generation of TV sets, but people with older TVs and existing STBs wouldn't be forced to upgrade to those.

Even though the 2009 mandate doesn't HAVE to affect the status quo with cable systems, it will force a lot of change in the consumer electronics industry and the cable companies can use it as an excuse for forcing everyone to upgrade to STBs.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Thanks!

One thing for sure this will send a lot of confused consumers to their neighborhood Radio Shack where they will be greeted by confused sales reps ;-)

cyberpirate

09-07-06, 10:46 PM

I want to copy my audio CDs and mp3s to HDD. Is there way to copy without playing audio cd/mp3? Is it possible to change the menu font size? I find it little bit hard to read the lettering sitting 15feet from my 27" TV. Is it just me or do others find it hard as well?

Thanks!

bobkart

09-08-06, 12:07 AM

If it's anything like the 633, you can't change the menu font size. Maybe sitting a little closer to the TV would help? 15 feet is awfully far away for a 27" TV. They usually suggest sitting 3x-5x the height of the screen, in your case that would be about 5-8 feet.

I believe the USB connection is for populating the HDD with audio tracks.

alan linell

09-08-06, 09:36 AM

wajo

09-08-06, 11:04 AM

Both your disc types should be OK for the 640. It will write at its highest speed, 12X(?), on discs made for that speed. You will get slightly more on a +R when recording multiple titles due to its smaller "border zones" between titles.

JeffWld

09-08-06, 11:50 AM

Both your disc types should be OK for the 640.

In fact the 640 firmware is advanced enough to accept some types of media that haven't been made available as yet.

ACPewty

09-08-06, 04:44 PM

I promised myself not to ask any more questions until I received my DVDR (it is due on 9/12), but I guess I'm over-anxious. This may be explained in the manual, but I'll ask anyway. I have on hand about 15 DVD+R blank discs (Fujifilm made in Taiwan) with a write speed up to 8x and an unopened 50 pack of DVD-Rs also by Fujifilm but manufactured in Japan and with a write speed 1x up to 16x. These purchases were for my computer and I actually bought the -Rs by mistake. Anyway, I'm a novice in this area and would like to know if these discs are compatable with the 640. When you high-speed dub from the HDD to a blank disc, do you select the write speed? Or does the machine default to the fastest speed the disc can handle? I believe some have said on this thread that speeds above 8x are not recommended. Once again, thanks for the help.Stick to HDD recording with high-speed dubs to DVD when using the 16x. Some posters report problems with real-time recordings to high-speed (16x) media. (Personally, I always use high-speed dubs and try to avoid real-time recording...much safer in case of a bad disc and more flexible for editing.) If for some reason you want to do a real-time recording direct to DVD, use the 8x media. Many users prefer to use slower write speeds to improve the reliability/longevity of the disc, but no one seems to be able to say for sure that high-speed copies don't last as long. (Lots of speculation and varying opinions.)

You can't manually set the write speed with the 640. It will select the best write speed for the media, although apparently this is not always the fastest possible rating for the media. I believe like the 2005 models 12x is used for 16x media. (Perhaps to improve reliability.) On page 119 of the manual it says: "Depending on the disc, the copy speed may be reduced (for example, although a 6 x disc is used, the copy may be made at 2 x speed)."

BTW, just in case you didn't already know: you will have better compatibility on other players with finalized DVD-R media.

Verbatim and Taiyo Yuden (Made in Japan) are the most recommended media for the Pioneer units. So far I exclusively use Verbatim 16x and I have yet to get a write failure.

Enjoy your 640!

Rupton23

09-08-06, 05:04 PM

suplex

09-08-06, 05:39 PM

Thanks to everyone for posting and sharing! I have followed every message and absorbed all info with great care. Now I have to ask a question. My friend has lent me his Pioneer DVR 633H-S and I have fallen in love with it. Luckily I haven’t had the pitfalls with it that others have experienced. But now he wants it back and I find myself wanting one. My question, which is more of a chime in is:

What do I go with… the newer 640 model or a 633?

Many members have grumbled both sides of the fence. On the one hand the 640 can record on both +R and -R formats. Yet sometimes it falls short with features like the remote control issues.

Also I’m not quite clear on this issue (the 640 model) of not being able to combine titles on the HDD, which dvdiva brought up 7/22/06.

Please sound out! I have my credit card waiting, eager to buy!

Want your problem solved? Do this...

Buy the 640 unit, then order a remote for the 633/533 (like I did) and you will have the best of both worlds. The remote you want is the VXX2967.

The 640 is great...remote control as the exception...but with the older models remote (which doesn't even need to be played with to get it to work, it works as soon as you put the batteries in) you will love your 640 unit even more.

suplex

09-08-06, 06:46 PM

I have DVDInfo software in my computer and it tells me the Media ID as well as what Region any DVD I put in it is.

When I record something from my Pioneer DVR-640H-S the Region code is: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. So if it records your DVD+/-R to ALL Region, I wonder why it doesn't play a DVD from any Region?

Actually, I haven't put any Non-Region 1 DVD's in the Pioneer 640 to test them, so I realy don't know that it wouldn't play a DVD from any region.

Do all home DVD Recorders make your disc to ALL Region?

bobkart

09-08-06, 06:58 PM

Region restrictions are mainly used on commercial DVDs. SInce your recorder doesn't produce commercial DVDs, there's no need to restrict the regions in which it will play. But opening up what discs will play in the unit would violate the intent of the commercial discs that do have region restrictions. The two features (creating unrestricted disc and playing a restricted disc) do not have to be related and clearly aren't in this case.

I'm pretty sure your 640 will complain about non-Region1 discs that you try to play back.

As far as I know all DVD Recorders create region-free discs. But I'm sure there's the odd exception here and there.

Rupton23

09-08-06, 08:00 PM

wajo

09-08-06, 08:13 PM

[QUOTE=dvdiva]I compared some of the features of the 531 to the 640 earlier in this thread in post #350. I expect the 633 differs from the 531 only by a larger HDD and front DV input since it shares the same manual.

Better is relative and it really depends on your needs are.

3) Can't combine titles on the hard drive, you can only do it on a disc (DVD-VR). This has been mentioned before but is worth mentioning again.

Can anyone clear this issue up for me? What this means exactly?

One last thing since I'm on a roll... I was informed that the white balance on the 633 was adjustable yet came from the factory in the “off” position. Is this the case with the 640? Can the white balance be adjusted and if so what it its factory preset? On or off?

Thanks!
There are many settings you can make in the 640's Video Adjust menu. You can select from 6 "Presets" for TV and external inputs: Tuner, VCR input, DTV/LDP input, and 3 you set yourself. There are 6 similar presets for Playback. Settings include noise reduction, white and black level, gamma, hue, etc.

Oh, and there is a big difference between 53x/63x series and the 640: the XP, SP and LP rec. modes are now all 720x480. It's now "almost" impossible to tell the diff. between 2-hr SP and 4-hr LP modes, at least on my 51" projection TV. With my previous 531, I never used LP or other lower-quality modes 'cause they were "noticeably" worse...LP was sort of like SLP on a VHS tape.

ACPewty

09-09-06, 12:01 PM

3) Can't combine titles on the hard drive, you can only do it on a disc (DVD-VR). This has been mentioned before but is worth mentioning again.
Can anyone clear this issue up for me? What this means exactly?To be literal you indeed cannot combine titles on the HDD, but you can combine titles during the process of copying from the HDD to a DVD so you are covered. During the Copy from HDD to DVD process, once you select separate titles to be copied you can combine titles in the copy list. It isn't immediately apparent because the feature is on the second page of the title edit menu, but Combine is there as well as Divide, Chapter Edit, Set Thumbnail etc.

So in short: Combining is done using the copy list rather than on the HDD. Maybe this is one of the reasons the Pioneer units don't seem to suffer from the HDD fragmentation problems experienced by Toshiba and Panasonic users...most editing gets done using a temporary copy list rather than chopping up the actual files.

One last thing since I'm on a roll... I was informed that the white balance on the 633 was adjustable yet came from the factory in the “off” position. Is this the case with the 640? Can the white balance be adjusted and if so what it its factory preset? On or off?The factory default setting for auto-white balance is indeed off. You just have to turn it on using the video adjust menu item.

wajo

09-09-06, 01:39 PM

To be literal you indeed cannot combine titles on the HDD, but you can combine titles during the process of copying from the HDD to a DVD so you are covered. During the Copy from HDD to DVD process, once you select separate titles to be copied you can combine titles in the copy list. It isn't immediately apparent because the feature is on the second page of the title edit menu, but Combine is there as well as Divide, Chapter Edit, Set Thumbnail etc.

So in short: Combining is done using the copy list rather than on the HDD. Maybe this is one of the reasons the Pioneer units don't seem to suffer from the HDD fragmentation problems experienced by Toshiba and Panasonic users...most editing gets done using a temporary copy list rather than chopping up the actual files.
AC, Thanks for your post on Combining. I'm going to delete my post on that subject so as not to confuse people. :o

I ass-u-med that, since the manual shows you can't Combine on the HDD but you can on VR/RAM discs, it was true. Now I see that the same "semi-hidden" menu items in the Copy menu allow you to Combine titles in the Copy List, as you said.

This is the 2nd major item the manual has wrong or poorly explained. The other is the fact that you CAN copy in high-speed mode from a VR-mode HDD to Video-Mode DVDs.

Thanks, again! :)

wajo

09-09-06, 03:15 PM

Sean Nelson

09-09-06, 03:21 PM

Combining is done using the copy list rather than on the HDD. Maybe this is one of the reasons the Pioneer units don't seem to suffer from the HDD fragmentation problems experienced by Toshiba and Panasonic users...most editing gets done using a temporary copy list rather than chopping up the actual files.FWIW, I do all of my editing on the HDD before I copy, and I haven't seen any problems related to disk fragmentation. I've had my Pioneer 633 for 11 months and I've recorded 400 or more TV broadcasts that I've removed the commercials from. With an average of 4 commercial breaks plus trimming the start end end of each show, that's well in excess of 2000 "erase sections", as well as erasing the edited shows themselves from the HDD after they've been burned.

I like to edit on the HDD because I prefer to edit after recording each show rather than waiting to do a huge whack of editing when I'm copying to the DVD. I'm also more comfortable with the idea of the edits being "really there", whereas the editing work done in a copy list is lost if you have to copy something else to DVD.

suplex

09-09-06, 05:36 PM

Wow! See this code-free, region-free, PAL/NTSC, DV Input, 250GB HDD Pioneer 640s from a company in the U.S. (http://www.220-electronics.com/dvdrecorders/pioneer640.htm)

It's $625 plus $20 shipping, but for $725 plus shipping they offer the 640s with some disc, cables, and a SIMA CT-2!

What a unique find that you were able to locate that website.

You know how you mentioned that it's one price by itself (Package 1) and more with cables, discs, and the Sima (Package 2)? Well even though at the top of the site you posted it says it's the International Version of the Pioneer 640, under "Package 1" it says: "Pioneer DVR 630Pal/NTSC DVD Recorder".

I am wondering how much of a deal a unit like this is anyhow. About the only benefit is the PAL/NTSC recording (if you even need that) because my NTSC only Pioneer 640 (with 160gb HDD) records to ALL Region when you make a DVD+/-R anyway.

I mentioned it in another post that I have "DVD Info" in my computer and when I put a DVD created by the 640 in the PC and run "DVD Info" it says the following under Region Code: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,6,8.

The 250gb HDD of the "International" 640 (633?) is nice, but for the extra money I wouldn't think it would be worth it either as my unit with a 160gb HDD really seems to be more than I think I would ever need. If they made a 640 with an optional 80gb HDD I might have purchased that one instead.

The only other thing that might be an eye opener for some people is that it will Play DVD's from any Region. Mine records to ALL Region, but only plays Region 1.

rgazzara

09-09-06, 05:49 PM

wajo

09-09-06, 08:07 PM

Gazzarson, you're back!

Time off for good behavior? :)

ACPewty

09-10-06, 12:52 AM

If they made a 640 with an optional 80gb HDD I might have purchased that one instead.I've seen the 543 in stores here in Canada. It has an 80Gb HDD for about $50 CDN less. Don't know why it isn't available in the US.

Rupton23

09-11-06, 11:46 AM

Hi All!

A big thanks to suplex, wabjxo, and ACPewty for taking to time to give me their advice! I'm ready to take the plunge and buy the 640!

Thanks again!
Bob

wajo

09-11-06, 11:51 AM

For over a year, I've been using the Pio 531's Clear button and now the 640's Erase button to get rid of stuff in Disc Nav. Am I the only one who has NOT found the "much easier" way (IMO), esp. considering the 640 hides the Erase button behind the sliding door?

Now, I highlight a recording to delete...you have to do this anyway... then press the right-arrow key and select "Erase."

I also used, for the 1st time, the "Multi-Mode" feature in the right-side menu, below Erase. Without selecting anything in Disc Nav., I right-arrowed, selected Multi-Mode (Up key), left-arrowed back to the Disc Nav., checked (with Enter key) the 10 or so recordings I wanted to delete, right-arrowed to Erase, answered "Yes" and they were all deleted at once. Before, I was selecting, pressing "Clear", and answering Yes to each recording individually!

WTF!

Sean Nelson

09-11-06, 01:24 PM

Multi-mode is a great timesaver, everyone should know how to use it!

suplex

09-11-06, 06:53 PM

I wasn't sure what Multi-Mode was for a while, then I figured it out and now I love it.

Something else I just recently figured out I can do (most in here probably know this already) is if you record a show...while it's actually recording...you can go into Disc Navigator and edit another show you have on the HDD.

I recorded two shows recently one from 3:00pm to 4:00pm, and another that started at 6:00pm. At 6:10pm (while the 6:00pm show was currently recording) I was able to take the commercials out of the show I recorded from 3:00pm to 4:00pm.

I had no idea that you could do that, but love the fact that you can. What I really think would be neat is if you could edit the same show that's recording. Let's say something was on from 8:00pm to 10:00pm, at 9:00pm you should be able to go in and edit the first half of the show and have it let you know when you can't go any further.

Urlee

09-12-06, 10:13 AM

Am I the only one who has NOT found the "much easier" way (IMO), esp. considering the 640 hides the Erase button behind the sliding door?

Now, I highlight a recording to delete...you have to do this anyway... then press the right-arrow key and select "Erase."

That's the only way I knew of and have been doing it?

Maybe it's a good thing we have the sliding door? Hides stuff I don't know about? :D

Urlee

Urlee

09-12-06, 10:48 AM

suplex

09-12-06, 04:49 PM

Thanks for the info Suplex,
I had my first thrill the other day.
I was watching a movie, completely forgetting about my 2 shows I had on the timer to record the same time I was viewing the movie, found it recorded them both, during my enjoyment of watching a movie which was on the HDD also.

Gotta LOVE that machine! That DVR is such a miraculous invention! :)

Urlee

Hey Urlee:

So you're saying that while something was recording to the HDD, you were also watching a movie...which was on the HDD? I thought you could do that but wasn't sure.

When you said this:...

I was watching a movie, completely forgetting about my 2 shows I had on the timer to record the same time I was viewing the movie

Did you mean you were recording two shows at the same time on different channels? An example would be, recording something from 3pm to 4pm on channel 5, while also recording something from 3pm to 4pm on channel 7. Is that what you were able to do?

Even if you didn't do that, this is still...like you said...a great machine.

luckylisp

09-12-06, 06:40 PM

You can definitely be watching something on the hard drive and recording at the same time, all dvr machines do that. You need a dual tuner to record two shows at the same time though.

alan linell

09-13-06, 03:30 PM

Urlee

09-13-06, 04:30 PM

Did you mean you were recording two shows at the same time on different channels? An example would be, recording something from 3pm to 4pm on channel 5, while also recording something from 3pm to 4pm on channel 7. Is that what you were able to do?
Even if you didn't do that, this is still...like you said...a great machine.

Hi Suplex, (dreamer) "LOL"

Sorry for the confusion----
I had the timer set to record every Saturday from 2-2:30 one program and from 2:30-3:00, another program. Two different shows.

I was watching a movie from the hard drive which started B4 and ended after those programs were to be recorded. When I looked at the time and realized what happened, I quickly checked the Disc Navigator and saw that both were recorded even though I was watching an HDD'er

"Miracle" What happened to Einstein?

Urlee

ACPewty

09-13-06, 04:37 PM

I've received the 640H and have read through much of the manual (left the editing section for later). I've removed my S-VHS deck from the system, but left my Sony DVD Player and VCR combo unit in the system. I have both basic cable (for local channels) and Satellite for the other channels - no HD capability. The cable is directly from the wall outlet - no cable box.

I feel like Daniel Stern in City Slickers trying to make sense of hook-up and play at this point. Can I connect both cable and satellite to the 640 without compromises? While my primary recordings will be off satellite, I will want to record the occasional network shows. For tuner set up, I was intending to select the "Do not set" option and keep the the tuner on L1. I have to set the satellite channel through my satellite remote and receiver - no IR blaster if that's what it's called. However, since my terrestrial channels will be through cable, don't I have to set the tuner up that way? Is it easy or possible to switch via the input button? Also, by hooking both up through the 640, will I be able to watch cable while recording satellite and vice-versa? Doesn't seem like I can. I can and will use the trial and error approach, but am looking for a heads-up from AVS to save some time (and keep my blood pressure at a reasonable level through this process). I hope what I wrote makes sense and thanks once again for the help.Assuming you are not using video switching through an A/V Receiver, sounds like for your setup you should do the following:

1) Connect the coax cable to the RF IN on the 640.
2) Use another coax cable from RF OUT pass-through on the 640 to the RF IN on the TV.
3) Connect the satellite box to L1 on the 640 (preferably using s-video cable)
4) Connect the DVD/VCR TO L3 on the 640 for recording from VHS tapes or watching non copy-protected tapes. (You'll need a direct feed to the TV if watching copy-protected VHS tapes.)
5) In the initial setup, tell the 640 you have cable with no cable box and let it find your local stations.

How you connect the TV depends on what inputs it has, but if you have them use component or s-video (in that order) from the 640 to the TV. Select that TV input when you want to watch recordings or TV through the 640, and select the TV tuner's channel to watch another cable channel while recording on the 640 from either satellite or cable.

With this setup, you can record from cable or satellite on the 640 and still watch another channel on the TV by using its tuner.

Of course you can only tune 1 channel at a time on the satellite, but you can record from satellite and chase-play or watch another pre-recorded show on the 640 at the same time.

If you have enough of the right kind of TV inputs, you can also run a cable from the satellite box direct to the TV to watch a show live on satellite while recording a cable show on the 640.

Sean Nelson

09-13-06, 04:38 PM

since my terrestrial channels will be through cable, don't I have to set the tuner up that way?When you go through the setup for the tuner, select "cable". That way you'll be able to record directly from the cable by using the Pioneer's tuner.

You'll want to run the cable from the wall to the Pioneer's RF In, then from the Pioneer's RF Out to your TV set. If you do that then you'll be able to record something from the satellite box (via one of the line inputs on the Pioneer) and watch something from the cable on your TV (via the it's RF Input) at the same time. Note that the Pioneer's RF In and RF Out act as a "passthrough" connector. Unlike a VCR, the RF Out always carries the same thing that's going into the RF In.

alan linell

09-13-06, 06:45 PM

Thank you AC and Sean. I think I have it all working, as I can display cable over two inputs (one with better quality), display satellite over one input with S-Video quality, play DVDs from both machines (simultaneously if I ever would want to do that!!), and play a VHS tape. The satellite input is regulated by the 640H, so I have to turn the machine on to watch DirecTV. As an aside, I used to keep my S-VCR and satellite receiver on all the time. Should I shut off the 640 when the TV is off, or can it be kept on continually? I will attempt to connect the satellite receiver to a TV input separately as AC suggested. Tomorrow I'll try recording and the various functions that go along with that. You've been a big help guys.

dvdiva

09-13-06, 07:39 PM

Lots of discussion regarding the pro and cons of the 640 remote vs last year's models. I wish the 640 remote would glow, the white buttons give you the impression that it should. I agree that the lack of an eject button seems silly, however, that can be alleviated somewhat by pressing PLAY if you are in DVD mode and just want to close the tray.

I miss the Timer Rec button that is on the 531 remote and not on the 640. With the 640, you must enter the Timer Recording screen via a number of steps (Home Menu, then Timer Recording, then choose from the list of 4 options). Since I always use the 1st option i.e. Timer Recording, I found this cumbersome. That is, until I discovered that if I used the Timer Rec button on the 531 with my 640, I bypassed the Home Menu, as well as the list of Timer Recording options and land on the 1st option's New Input screen. I am now programming this into my Harmony universal remote. :D

ACPewty

09-13-06, 11:43 PM

Should I shut off the 640 when the TV is off, or can it be kept on continually?I would turn it off when not in use, not only because leaving it on when not in use is a waste of energy but also because as with all electronic components, these units will have a limited number of hours of operation, especially when there are mechanical components like the HDD and cooling fan.

The HDD in these units are the same type you get in computers. I was talking to a computer hardware distributor yesterday and he said several hard drive manufacturers' reps have told him that most drives made these days aren't made for 24/7 operation anymore. (They don't make 'em like they used to.) It wouldn't surprise me if in order to keep prices down, relatively inexpensive drives are used in most DVDRs available today.

ACPewty

09-13-06, 11:45 PM

dvdiva

09-15-06, 11:57 PM

I have realized that editing on the 640 is easier than the 531 because the fast forward and rewind buttons on the 640 remote allow for incremental (frame by frame) movement if you press the pause button first.

This is handy if you like to edit out commercials. I fast forward to the commercial, hit PAUSE in a vain attempt to land on the right spot. Then I hit REW or FF to slowly move to the fade to black point that I am looking for. If you try this with the 531 remote you have to use the STEP/SLOW buttons after you press PAUSE in order to find the exact edit spot.

I find that the fewer buttons I need to involve in the process, the less chance for error and the greater efficiency.

alan linell

09-17-06, 12:16 PM

So far in the 6 days I've had the 640H, it has performed without a hitch. I believe with the excellent help I've received here, the set-up and connections cover all my intended uses. I have a timer situation that I'd like to share to help avoid a massive screw-up on my part. I will be out of town for 4 weeks around October, and I'd like to make the following timer recordings:

October 11 - Lost - Ch. 7 - 1hr.
October 12 - Survivor - Ch. 6 - 1 hr.
October 18 - Lost - Ch. 7 - 1hr.
October 19 - Survivor - Ch. 6 - 1 hr.
October 21 - TCM - L1 - 2 hr. 40 min.
October 25 - Lost - Ch 7 - 1 hr.
October 26 - Survivor - Ch. 6 - 1 hr.
October 29 - TCM - L1 - 1hr. 34 min.
October 30 - TCM - L1 - 1hr. 28 min.
November 01 - Lost - Ch. 7 - 1 hr.
November 02 - Survivor - Ch. 6 - 1hr.

I have done a test and the tuner will switch from a basic cable channel (2-25) to satellite (L1). Since I cannot change satellite stations while away, only one, TCM, will be used for recording purposes.

I am a bit unsure of how to maximize the quality recording setting. It is currently set for SP, which looks almost exactly like the original signal, and is fine for creating a 2 hr. or less DVD. The one program in the above schedule of concern is the Oct. 21 TCM movie which runs 2 hr. 40 min. For some reason, I couldn't change the recording speed setting just for that one show. Is it possible? I considered Optimized recording, but in the manual it says that "Optimized Rec will only compensate for the next scheduled timer recording if more than one is set." So, if I leave it at SP, the 2:40 show will record at that quality, but would require two discs if I want to copy it to DVD (or a DL disc which I haven't looked into yet). Is this correct? If I set the recording mode to MN 17, I can copy the long movie to one DVD, but all the recordings would be of lesser quality. If I were just watching, this wouldn't bother me too much, but I may want to make some DVDs, especially of the TCM recordings.

Finally, unlike VCRs which you have to shut off to set a timer recording, I must leave the 640 on for timer recordings while I'm away. Correct?

wajo

09-17-06, 01:10 PM

You can do what you want in two ways:

1...Set the 2h40m show to MN17 in the "Set Detailed" section of the timer rec. menu.

2...Set the 2h40m show to AUTO, also in "Set Detailed," which will also assure that it will fit on a DVD.

suplex

09-17-06, 01:28 PM

Finally, unlike VCRs which you have to shut off to set a timer recording, I must leave the 640 on for timer recordings while I'm away. Correct?

No, you can turn your 640 off and it will turn itself on when it needs to for timer recordings.

Another thing I would like to tell you about is that I have found, from prior experience, is that an hour show (with commercials cut out) typically cuts down to between 43 and 45 minutes (a half hour show is around 21 to 23 minutes).

So if you want to record something that is Two Hours where you know there will be commercials, use MN 26 which yields 90 minutes (45 x 2 = 90) and then when you transfer it to DVD it will be just right.

suplex

09-17-06, 01:39 PM

I have realized that editing on the 640 is easier than the 531 because the fast forward and rewind buttons on the 640 remote allow for incremental (frame by frame) movement if you press the pause button first.

I thought the frame-by-frame editing (versus .15 frames editing [one half second]) could only be done if you select the frame-by-frame editing when you start the edit screen (the selection which does not allow high-speed transfers).

So you are saying that if you go with the High-Speed Transfer allowing edit mode, you can still do frame-by-frame editing by pressing the Pause button first? Then when you are done you can do your transfer to DVD in high-speed? All with using the 640 remote on the 640 instead of the 531 remote on the 640?

dvdiva

09-17-06, 02:13 PM

I thought the frame-by-frame editing (versus .15 frames editing [one half second]) could only be done if you select the frame-by-frame editing when you start the edit screen (the selection which does not allow high-speed transfers).

So you are saying that if you go with the High-Speed Transfer allowing edit mode, you can still do frame-by-frame editing by pressing the Pause button first? Then when you are done you can do your transfer to DVD in high-speed? All with using the 640 remote on the 640 instead of the 531 remote on the 640?

No, if you want to place your edit points with exact frame accuracy, you must select Frame Accurate Editing right after you enter the chapter edit function. If you select Video Mode Compatible Editing, you can advance frame by frame but the edit points that you select will be placed at the next 1/2 second interval. Sorry if I mislead you.

My point was that the 640 remote does not have the STEP/SLOW buttons of the 531 so if you want to edit, you can use fewer buttons in the process.

In general, I record to the HDD, edit on the HDD on the Disc Nav screen using Video Mode Compatible Editing, and use High Speed Copying if possible if I want to archive anything to DVD (I have only been using single layer discs). I find that Frame by Frame Editing is not necessary for my purposes.

I would also like to take this opportunity to thank all the participants in this thread for the many helpful tips that I have learned.

wajo

09-17-06, 02:17 PM

I thought the frame-by-frame editing (versus .15 frames editing [one half second]) could only be done if you select the frame-by-frame editing when you start the edit screen (the selection which does not allow high-speed transfers).

So you are saying that if you go with the High-Speed Transfer allowing edit mode, you can still do frame-by-frame editing by pressing the Pause button first? Then when you are done you can do your transfer to DVD in high-speed? All with using the 640 remote on the 640 instead of the 531 remote on the 640?
Don't worry about the "suggestion" that you can't do a HS copy after using VR/frame-accurate editing. I've done many HS copies from a totally VR-mode HDD to both VR and Video-Mode DVDs.

If you find that you CAN'T do a HS copy, I'd like to hear about it. I still haven't figured out why that "note" is in the manual.

Added: I just tested this with Frame-accurate editing on Video-mode HDD and VR-mode HDD. HS copied both to Video-mode DVD. No problem, except the pause I always get at each erased section...I guess from not picking "key frames" for the in and out points??? (How do you do that?)

alan linell

09-17-06, 04:59 PM

Thanks guys. I'm trying two timer programs tonight each with different MN speed settings, and the machine did turn off after setting (for some reason it didn't when I tried this earlier, maybe because the practice timer program I attempted was due to start within one minute.) Learning as I'm going.

suplex

09-17-06, 07:15 PM

Don't worry about the "suggestion" that you can't do a HS copy after using VR/frame-accurate editing. I've done many HS copies from a totally VR-mode HDD to both VR and Video-Mode DVDs.

wabjxo:

Let me ask you this, just to clarify something. If the edit that you do is Frame-by-Frame...that in itself makes it VR Mode, where the edit job that lets you get as close as one half second is Video Mode?

I was under the impression that you had to select VR versus Video mode in the Main menu prior to doing any recording at all.

As a test I am going to have to record something and use the Frame Accurate editing and then see if it will let me high-speed copy...if it does, that's what I am doing from now on.

Don't worry Alan Linell, these devices are works in progress for most of us...learning as we go along.

wajo

09-17-06, 07:21 PM

wabjxo:

Let me ask you this, just to clarify something. If the edit that you do is Frame-by-Frame...that in itself makes it VR Mode, where the edit job that lets you get as close as one half second is Video Mode?

I was under the impression that you had to select VR versus Video mode in the Main menu prior to doing any recording at all.

As a test I am going to have to record something and use the Frame Accurate editing and then see if it will let me high-speed copy...if it does, that's what I am doing from now on.

Don't worry Alan Linell, these devices are works in progress for most of us...learning as we go along.
I think you're right...when you select frame-accurate editing, that puts the HDD in temp. VR mode, but I'm not positive. It would seem so since they have that "bogus" caution about high-speed copying, which seems always related to VR-mode recording.

I had my HDD set on VR mode for a month with many recordings and subsequent HS copying to normal Video-Mode DVDs...no problem.

The problem I still have is pauses wherever I make an edit since I don't know how to identify the "key frames" bobkart talks about. I read one user who said they had special marks, but not sure what brand of DVDR.

BOBKART, where are you?

suplex

09-17-06, 07:56 PM

The problem I still have is pauses wherever I make an edit since I don't know how to identify the "key frames" bobkart talks about. I read one user who said they had special marks, but not sure what brand of DVDR.

With my Toshiba DVD Recorders (non-HDD models) you would get a pause wherever you did an edit, but my Pioneer 640 is very smooth when I pick the start and stop points for an edit, then it gives a preview of how it will look. When I make a DVD out of whatever I edited, it gives me seemless playback (as long as I am fortunate enough to find black screens [fade in/out] for my start and stop points).

BOBKART, where are you?

Yeah, I haven't seen him around lately either.

bobkart

09-17-06, 08:31 PM

On the Pioneer 633, it gives you the option of editing in either Video Mode Compatible Editing or Frame Accurate Editing. In Video Mode Compatible Editing, anytime you pause the playback to find a point to start or end a cut, it will always stop on a Key Frame, which are every half second. If you try to move forward or backward one frame from one of these Key Frames in Video Mode Compatible Editing, it will instead move you a half second, to the next Key Frame. So it enforces only being able to make cuts that start and end on Key Frames. In Frame Accurate Editing, of course, you may start and end a cut on any frame, with the downside that if you end the cut on a frame other than a Key Frame, it will freeze the last good frame (the one before the cut started), until it catches up to the next Key Frame.

On a recorder that doesn't give you the option of restricting your cuts to Key Frames, I can't really say how you can know that you are on a Key Frame or not, especially if it does not show you the frame number within each second. If it does show you the frame number within each second (0-29), then as long as all the previous cuts in the Title you are editing all started and stopped on Key Frames (frame numbers 0 or 15), then subsequent cuts can also be made to start and end on Key Frames by making sure they are on frames numbered either 0 or 15. Once you make a cut that doesn't comply with that constraint, then all bets are off for the remainder of the Title.

wajo

09-17-06, 08:43 PM

Thanks for that, bobkart!

In my most recent editing tests, the 640 does show frame numbers, but I was selecting frames on increments of 5 (5, 10, 15, etc.) and "messing up" the frame count from my 1st cut on.

Now I know I should cut on every 0 or 15th frame in frame-accurate editing in VR mode. Better yet, I might as well just edit in Video Mode where it will automatically set in and out points on key frames?

Is this correct?

bobkart

09-17-06, 08:51 PM

Yeah might as well just use the mode that enforces correct cut points.

Give that a try, I can't swear that it will work though, I usually use Frame Accurate editing and try to always start the cuts on black frames. What give me pause (no pun intended!) is that the few times I've tried Video Mode Compatible editing, during preview and normal playback, it would still pause at the start of the cut. This is for when I want to High-Speed dub from HDD to DVD, and usually when I do this I am more concerned with getting the best Pciture Quality than having clean cuts, so I actually am not sure if when playing back the resulting DVD, there are pauses at the cut points or not. I guess I could pop one in and see, like I say I don't do it very often so I'm actually not sure the results are as I'm claiming. I do know it works to edit on PC that way, you get clean cuts with no pauses.

kjbawc

09-18-06, 01:44 AM

BobKart's experience with the 633 agrees with my experience with the 640. I would add that if, while in pause, video mode editing, you use the << and >> buttons, they automatically advance, or rewind, to the next key frame, so you can't go wrong.

I've been on vacation for a couple of weeks, and am just catching up. I noticed a couple of pages back someone pointed out that you can edit one recording in the HDD, while, at the same time, making a new recording to the HDD. I discovered this by accident, and would like to add a couple of details. You will be taken OUT of edit mode when the 640 goes into recording standby, two minutes before a scheduled recording. You will be taken out again when the recording begins. But, you can then go back to where you were, and continue editing. It is also possible to copy that program you just edited from HDD, to disc, while still recording another program to to HDD! But, you will have to wait to finalize it until after the HDD recording is done. It will still finalize with the thumbnails and titles you have set, but you will have to pick the menu page, when you start finalizing.

I had a strange problem with editing, and I wondered if anyone else encountered it. TCM had 24 hours of short films, 6am Friday, to 6am Saturday. I recorded the whole 24 hours, which the DVDR automatically splits into two titles, 12 hours each. I scanned through the first 12 hours, and deleted it, since I didn't see too much of interest to me. But there was much I want to save in the second 12 hours. So, using the chapter edit function, video mode, I started breaking the shorts up into chapters, deleting those I didn't want, and interstitial stuff I didn't want either, leaving just the short films, and some commentary, that I wanted. That cut it down to just over seven hours.

The strange thing happened when I tried to make the 29th chapter. I paused, and pushed enter, as usual. The display said chapter entered, but the small vertical bar, which indicates a chapter division, didn't appear, and the chapter count didn't go up. The chapter division was several minutes away from the closest previous one, so it wasn't hidden, it just wasn't there. I tried hitting enter a few more times, but no mark appeared. So, I scanned forward to where I wanted the next chapter mark, paused, and hit enter. No mark appeared at the new location, but the mark appeared at the last location, where it had refused to appear before! So, I kept editing, getting the last mark by moving a few frames ahead, and hitting enter, then deleting the end part. I checked the manual, and it should allow 99 chapters. I tried to recreate the problem on another HDD recording, of about two hours, by putting in chapters every minute, but had no recurrance of the problem! Weird!

One more thing... Welcome, Alan Linnell. Did you know that your name is the alias Bacall picked for Bogie in Dark Passage? ;)

wajo

09-18-06, 07:26 AM

I did some tests and confirmed the fact that Video-Mode and Frame-Accurate Editing can be done using the same button sequence, the diff. being only how many frames the << and >> buttons move the edit point when selecting "From" and "To" points.

Another difference is that "Frame-Accurate" Editing is only available if you edit the ORIGINAL recording via Disk Navigator...it is NOT available when editing recordings in a Copy List. Once you select a Title in a Copy List to Edit (Erase Section, etc.), editing can only be done in 15-frame increments (the "key" frames). This is true whether the HDD is set for "Video Mode On" or "Video Mode Off."

In Video-Mode editing in a Copy List, you press the Pause button to stop the playback at an approx. point for the edit, then press << and >> keys to move 15 frames per press in either direction. When you get to your desired "From" (start) point, you press the Enter button to select that first point. Then you press the >> key and move, in 15-frame increments, to your desired "To" (end) point for that edit, and press Enter again. Pressing Pause starts playback again to set your next edit...you can also use the << and >> keys during playback to move faster, if you want. Press Pause to stop again for another edit.

In Frame-Accurate Editing of an Original, the << and >> keys move a frame at a time, and you can start and end on ANY frame, not just the 15-frame increments.

In my tests, both methods resulted in slight pauses at each edit point (Chapter) during playback, even with "Seamless Playback" turned on in Initial Setup and with some recordings and editing done with Video-Mode Off (VR Mode On).

This is the part I still don't understand...can anyone get seamless playback after Erasing Sections, i.e., w/o slight pauses at every Chapter/edit point???

alan linell

09-18-06, 09:02 AM

One more thing... Welcome, Alan Linnell. Did you know that your name is the alias Bacall picked for Bogie in Dark Passage?

I didn't surprise me Kjbawc that you knew who Alan Linnell was, after reading about your recording the day of shorts from TCM. As it was for Bogart, it is an alias for me (and I'm not really Vincent Parry as well :) ) Great 'B' Noir that Dark Passage.

Another basic question. When I record a commercial free broadcast, say from TCM, and if it is a movie I have never seen before, I don't want to add chapter marks by scanning the movie. If I have already seen the film, I don't mind doing this. So, to add chapter marks before copying to DVD, would I just watch it first on HDD adding chapter marks as I go? Guess there isn't an automatic way to say add chapter marks every 10 minutes or so, is there?

wajo

09-18-06, 11:31 AM

Another basic question. When I record a commercial free broadcast, say from TCM, and if it is a movie I have never seen before, I don't want to add chapter marks by scanning the movie. If I have already seen the film, I don't mind doing this. So, to add chapter marks before copying to DVD, would I just watch it first on HDD adding chapter marks as I go? Guess there isn't an automatic way to say add chapter marks every 10 minutes or so, is there?
You can add automatic chapter marks if you record directly to DVD or Copy to DVD in real time...forego the high-speed copy option.

Chapter marks will be set at 10-minute intervals, which is the default setting in Initial Setup > Recording. You can change that setting to "No Separation" or "15 Minutes" if you want.

If watching a broadcast and recording at the same time, you can press Pause at commercials to delete them and set a Chapter mark at the same time. (This is for manual recordings...you can't Pause a Timer Rec. in the same way.)

To preserve custom Chapters (once you set manuall), use High-Speed Copy...you won't get any Chapter marks with HS Copy unless you set them yourself. Conversely, custom Chapters are NOT maintained with real-time copy, just the auto ones per your setting.

dvdiva

09-18-06, 02:34 PM

The comm. skip button on the remote is a quick way to advanced through a program when placing chapter markers. It will advance program from 30,60 secs, 2,3,5,10 min depending on number of button presses. You can quickly become skilled at advancing through a two hour program in 10 min (or whatever) intervals. Usually takes me less than 5 minutes to add 10 minute chapters to a two hour program.

The above is an invaluable tip I learned here & I believe is worth repeating. I do the above but I hit the pause button 1st, then I press the CommSkip button 7 times to jump to a 10min skip, wait a moment for the 640 to catch up & then insert my chapter mark.

Thanks again Oldemanphil for this time saving tip. It works like a charm.

Tony9429

09-18-06, 06:27 PM

Could someone please help me with this?: I've had this recorder for about a week and a half and I love it.
Well I recorded a nfl football game last week on the harddrive from my HD tuner and I put it on a DVD and everything worked great.
Well yesterday I recorded another game from Directv onto the harddrive and when I play it there was a message on the screen saying something like "there are area's on the recording that are copy protected" something like that. When I recorded it I paused out all the commercials...just the game is on there...So why did it say just parts of the recording is copy protected??
I did not try to put it on a dvd yet because I'm not sure what to do because of this.
Does anyone know what I can do to put it on a dvd...one that I can play in any dvd player...and is it possible to find out which sections are copy protected so maybe I can edit it out.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

suplex

09-18-06, 06:41 PM

Tony9429:

That sounds like a problem that we (DVD Recorder owners) are going to start having. I tried playing an original DVD in my player and copying it over to the Pioneer 640...just to see what kind of message I received...and it was similar to the "Areas of the recording are copy protected" message.

However your situation...with recording a broadcast Football game, shouldn't be like that. What I would do, and as far as saving time this suggestion stinks, is play the football game on the Hard Drive and see if there is anything you can notice that may not have recorded. If it looks good from start to finish, it will likely transfer to DVD just fine.

I know the drag of having to watch the whole thing first, but you might wind up having to do that.

If you are starting to notice that more and more recordings are doing this, there are devices that you can get that run between the Video connection coming out of whatever your source is...then going in to the Pioneer 640. They are usually referred to as "Video Stabilizers", and many links in here talk about them.

Tony9429

09-18-06, 08:29 PM

wajo

09-18-06, 08:38 PM

Tony, if you get that same situation/message another time, try copying the game to a DVD anyway just to test the message. It just might let you copy with no problem since the "copy protected" sections were black, which might just be an indication (message) that they were not allowed to be recorded to the DVR hard drive, i.e., it might have solved the problem for you by not allowing it to record those sections, resulting in no actual copy-protected "content" on the hard drive!?

That might actually be pretty cool! :cool:

Tony9429

09-18-06, 09:16 PM

wabjxo,

Yeah I think it would of recorded it just fine w/o editing on the hard drive...I just wanted to edit out those few seconds of black sections...next time I'll try just burning it...thanks for the input.
If anyone is thinking about buying this recorder...well its my first one and its great..and if you record football games..you can record them in high quality on the harddrive than edit out the commercials and half time (very easy) and you can fit the whole game on a dual layer disc in high quality.

kjbawc

09-19-06, 12:03 AM

I didn't surprise me Kjbawc that you knew who Alan Linnell was, after reading about your recording the day of shorts from TCM. As it was for Bogart, it is an alias for me (and I'm not really Vincent Parry as well :) ) Great 'B' Noir that Dark Passage.

Another basic question. When I record a commercial free broadcast, say from TCM, and if it is a movie I have never seen before, I don't want to add chapter marks by scanning the movie. If I have already seen the film, I don't mind doing this. So, to add chapter marks before copying to DVD, would I just watch it first on HDD adding chapter marks as I go? Guess there isn't an automatic way to say add chapter marks every 10 minutes or so, is there?

While DVDiva/OldmanPhil's advice is good, if you want to avoid seeing any of a film you haven't seen before, thus avoiding spoilers, the obvious thing to do is to add the chapter marks after you watch the film. If you like the film enough, and think you will want to refer to it again, you might write down the times of major scene changes, as you watch, and insert chapter marks at these points later. That's more trouble than 10 min. increments, but more filmic! ;)

Sean Nelson

09-19-06, 01:51 AM

As a test I am going to have to record something and use the Frame Accurate editing and then see if it will let me high-speed copy...if it does, that's what I am doing from now on.On my Pioneer 633, when I edit titles on the hard drive I'm given the choice of "Video Mode Compatible Editing" or "Frame Accurate Editing". I can edit in either of those modes regardless of what "mode" the hard drive is set to (in the general setup menu for the recorder). Choosing "Video Mode Compatible" causes the pause control to stop only on key frames, while choosing "Frame Accurate" allows edit points on any frame.

The result of both types of editing is a slight pause at the edit point during playback of the title on the hard drive.

If I do a high-speed copy of a title to DVD, and if the title has "Frame Accurate" edits in it, I'm presented with a message that warns "Edit points may be moved slightly when making high speed copies" (that's from memory, but the words are to that effect). And indeed, a high-speed copy is in fact done at high speed, but the edit points really are moved - to key frames. It looks like the start point for a deleted section is moved to the immediately preceeding key frame and the end point is moved to the immediately following key frame.

My guess would be that the Pioneer 640 likely does the same thing.

kjbawc

09-19-06, 03:19 AM

I record, and edit, only in Video mode, using "Video mode compatible editing." I begin and end edits, and fix thumbnails, only on key frames. I also get the warning about edit points moving slightly, but they don't seem to move at all. I do get a slight pause where I deleted something, but no pause when I set chapter marks without deleting anything.

From what you say, "Frame accurate editing" is anything but, if you do a HS copy in Video mode. But, what if you copy in VR mode, HS? Do the edit points then NOT shift, if you used "Frame accurate editing?" Or, does "Frame accurate editing" apply only to HDD viewing?

voranis

09-19-06, 12:54 PM

Hi,

I am a longtime Pioneer DVR owner but am new to this forum. I have two 520s and one 640. For the first year I owned my first 520, I did only video-compatible high-speed copying, because the 520 manual said not all copies would be possible in frame-accurate mode. When I got my second 520, I forgot to turn off frame-accurate and had already done several copies before realizing it. I then set both 520s to frame-accurate and they have NEVER failed to copy in the years since. The precise edit points appear to be preserved on the DVDs, as far as I can tell, when I watch them on my Pioneer unit. When watched on other DVD players, it does seem as if they skip to the .15 point, but this way I get the best of both worlds--the DVDs are playable on other players (with the lack of precision I would have gotten anyway if I was forced to use video-compatible mode), and I can watch them in frame-accurate mode on my Pioneer units.

There are quite a few stations (Hallmark Channel, SCIFI) that I record movies and TV shows on that do not have any black frames between shows. Sure, TCM and the premium movie channels do, but there are MANY that don't. They run commercials and channel banners slammed right up against the next show. Even some of the local stations do not have any gaps between shows now. Sometimes the sound from the commercials and station identification babble continues over into the gap so there is unwanted sound even if there is a black frame. Even with some that do have gaps, the gaps are not always long enough that the .15 mark falls within the gap. I love being able to cut out all the bad frames in the copylist using frame-accurate recording on my 520.

I try to use the 640 for TCM and movies, and my 520s for everything where I need frame-accurate copies, but I realize the 520s won't last forever. Does anyone know why Pioneer would take away this feature with its newer models? I realize frame-accurate can be done on the original title, but I prefer to work with the copylist to avoid making permanent mistakes with the original. Also, if I record two shows back-to-back as one recording (which is often necessary given, as I have said, the increasing lack of gaps between the shows) , and I want to put them on separate DVDs, I would not be able to record them both to DVD if I had to edit the original title.

Also, I cannot proceed to make a copylist on the 640 until the DVD is finished loading. It gives a prompt (too many prompts on this unit, IMHO) with an option to load a disc later, but the screen is grayed out so I can't use it. I am essentially blocked for a minute or so while the DVD loads. On my 520, I can start assembling the copylist while the blank DVD is loading--the admittedly small amount of time saved often made the difference between getting an extra title copied to DVD and freeing the HDD space before the next recording needed to start. Why would Pioneer change this?

Also, I don't like getting the prompts that try to "suggest" auto-fit when the contents of the copylist exceed the DVD space. I inadvertently started several copies in non-high-speed mode when I first got the 640 before I realized what was going on. On the 520, it doesn't try to stop you until the final screen. It seems natural that the copylist contents might exceed the DVD space when you are first working on the copylist--why slow the user down with so many prompts early on?

Having grumbled about all this, I have tried Panasonic and Toshiba and, by far, Pioneer models are still the best. I was pleased to hear that copies can be initiated on the 640 while a recording is in progress--this is great news! I always wanted to be able to do that on the 520 and never understood why it couldn't be done. On the 520, you could start a recording while a copy was underway, but you could never start a copy while a recording was underway. Finalizing is a compute-intensive process, so it makes sense finalizing must be done when nothing else is going on, but if a copy can be underway when a recording is started, it doesn't seem to make sense that you couldn't start a copy while a recording is underway. Assembling the copylist is not compute-intensive, and the 520 already let the user do comparable operations (watching an HDD title, setting thumbnails and titles on DVD chapters) while a recording was underway. Since assembling a copylist does not modify the original primary recording area, it should be possible to do so while a recording is in process...

I also like being able to set the DVD to auto-finalize after copying on the 640--this is a great timesaver that I can't do on the 520.

voranis

09-19-06, 01:00 PM

Thanks suplex..

I did what you said..
Actually ..I found out it was in the live broadcast...it was 2 spots where the screen went black for a few seconds...don't really know why they did that but...I just edited the black spots out on the harddrive and then burned it..it worked perfect...thanks again for your help. I love this thing..I had the polaroid burner and that was a piece of crap...the analog tuner had a horrible picture..this one the pic quality is great.

I usually get the "copy-protected" message when there are DIRECTV signal problems. This doesn't happen a lot. Also, one time, after a power outage (before I got battery backups for my DVRs), as the DIRECTV receiver was beginning its long startup process (downloading the schedule, etc.), the DVR resumed recording and it gave the "copy-protected" message for the portion of the time that the DIRECTV receiver was still in "starting up"...

I usually just edit out the copy-protected sections too.

wajo

09-19-06, 01:12 PM

voranis, interesting info. on your experience with the 533 and 640. I also had a 533 and now have a 640.

I never had trouble copying from HDD > DVD while recording on the HDD at the same time on my 533, or my 640. Your experience sounds "odd."

My 533 and 640 both "remind" me when a copy list won't fit on a DVD before I copy, giving me a dialog that asks me to remove some content, etc. My 533 didn't offer the 640's added menu of selecting a "modified" record quality so the content will fit...I juts had to remove some content...same as you see on your machines?

Both my units also let me select "Finalize" as one of the last steps in the Copy menu sequence...pressing Enter Starts Copy w/o Finalize, but arrowing up to "Finalize" then selecting "Start Copy" was common to both my machines.

As far as I can remember, neither machine allowed me to proceed with a Copy until a disc was fully "loaded." My 640 is diff. only in that it lets you proceed to a point with the Copy menus until it needs the disc loaded (I can now "pre-select" the type of DVD before loading one).

Seems that some of your experience is quite diff. than mine???

voranis

09-19-06, 01:16 PM

I gave up on trying to find a customized thumbnail for each of the many, many TV shows I tape. Now, for each TV series, I use a frame where the name of the show is displayed during the opening title sequence. It's always the same number of seconds before the first commercial, so it's very fast to do.

This is interesting; I did the reverse. For two years I used the show title as the thumbnail. Then I decided there was no distinctive value in that, and plus, because teaser lengths can vary, it was taking time for me to scan forward to the show title. (Is there a way to jump automatically to the first commercial?)

I now use the first relatively clean frame in the recording I can find (past the little rating bug and "Simulcast in Widescreen" stuff). It has saved me so much time. On the few shows that do display the episode titles , I do take the time to scan forward and use the episode title (not the show title) as the thumbnail.

Really I would prefer no thumbnail at all. The 640 has one DVD menu style that has no thumbnail picture, and I was excited to start using it, but I discovered its strong blue background makes the lettering hard to read (on my TV, anyway), and guess what! That style won't display as many letters of the chapter titles as some of the other menu styles do. I found it was truncating the chapter titles and when I switched back to the gray style, my chapter titles were not truncated. Strange...

voranis

09-19-06, 01:19 PM

voranis, interesting info. on your experience with the 533 and 640. I also had a 533 and now have a 640.

I never had trouble copying from HDD > DVD while recording on the HDD at the same time on my 533. Your experience sounds "odd."

My 533 and 640 both "remind" me when a copy list won't fit on a DVD before I copy, giving me a dialog that asks me to remove some content, etc.

Both my units also let me select "Finalize" as one of the last steps in the Copy menu sequence...pressing Enter starts Copy w/o Finalize, but arrowing up to "Finalize" then selecting "Copy" was common to both my machines.

As far as I can remember, neither machine allowed me to proceed with a Copy until a disc was fully "loaded." The 640 is diff. only in that it lets you proceed to a point with the Copy menus until it needs the disc loaded (you can pre-select the type of DVD before loading one).

Seems that your experience is quite diff. than mine???

Eek, I have used the wrong model number, I think. My 533s are really 520s. I was reading about so many 533s in this thread, I got mixed up. I will edit my original post.

dvdiva

09-19-06, 02:43 PM

I have noticed in both my 531 and 640, that if I start the Copy List without a blank DVD in the tray, and I load the copy list with excessive content, I get this prompt,

Disc capacity exceeded, OK to continue? YES/NO

And it assumes 4.4 G on a single layer DVD-R. Which is all I have been using anyway.

If I continue, and put a disc in after this prompt, then I must delete content via the copy list Erase or Erase Section functions to allow me to proceed with the burn. I do not get an option of recording mode adjustment in order to fit the content to the disc.

However, if I load a disc first, then create a copy list that is greater than 4.4 G, I get this prompt.

The disc capacity is exceeded. The recording mode will be adjusted in order to fit all the titles on to the disc. YES/NO

This is a bit of a drag as I sometimes forget to load the disc as I enter the Copy List function. If I want to transfer something (in real time of course) that I recorded in XP mode onto DVD in SP mode, then I must abort what I have done, load the disc & reassemble my copy list.

It doesn't make much sense to me but I try to have that disc in first now.

bobkart

09-19-06, 02:56 PM

Yes, it makes the recording quality adjustments as you build up the Copy List, based on the disc size. No disc and it can't/won't make the adjustments, leaving you with a useless Copy List when you do finally put a disc in. You could put a Dual Layer disc in and all the bitrate calculations it made would be wrong if it just assumed a single-layer disc was the target of the copy. Ideally it would just recalculate appropriate recording qualities once a disc is inserted, but I guess they didn't think of that, or it was too much trouble. So you really have to put a disc in prior to starting to build a Copy List.

voranis

09-19-06, 05:05 PM

I usually don't want the adjustment to be made automatically as I'm building the copy list--I always say NO to the prompt. Because by the time I'm through editing the copy list, it will fit using the standard high-speed copy mode. Do users often allow the machine to automatically adjust the rate as soon as the first title is added? And then it must re-adjust again when the second title is added? Etc.?

On my 520s, I can build my copy list while the blank DVD is loading. Then on the last screen, I can change the copy rate at that time. By that time the DVD is loaded and it can make the calculation. The button to start the copy doesn't become enabled on the final screen until the disc finishes loading.

Of course, rates can't be different for individual titles on the 520 as they can be on the 640. But still it would have been possible to design the 640 so that the user could go back to, or even stay on, the screen where the adjustments can be made, and have a recalculate button on that screen that becomes enabled when the disc is finished loaded. It seems like this wouldn't be the typical path, though. Do most users use auto-adjust? They must, or Pioneer thinks they do, since the default at the auto-adjust prompt is YES.

I wish there were a "disable auto-adjustments" preference on the 640 I could select so I could start building the copy list while the disc is still loading and not have to deal with the extra prompting.

ACPewty

09-20-06, 01:20 AM

Welcome voranis. I usually don't want the adjustment to be made automatically as I'm building the copy list--I always say NO to the prompt. Because by the time I'm through editing the copy list, it will fit using the standard high-speed copy mode. Do users often allow the machine to automatically adjust the rate as soon as the first title is added? And then it must re-adjust again when the second title is added? Etc.?

Of course, rates can't be different for individual titles on the 520 as they can be on the 640. But still it would have been possible to design the 640 so that the user could go back to, or even stay on, the screen where the adjustments can be made, and have a recalculate button on that screen that becomes enabled when the disc is finished loaded. It seems like this wouldn't be the typical path, though.
After the disc capacity is exceeded, the 640 only asks if you want to adjust the recording mode each time you add a title to the copy list if you always answer "Yes" to the question. If you answer "No", it won't ask again and then you can adjust the recording mode on the final screen's menu, including optimize and all the manual speeds.

I know there may be occasional instances where poor planning necessitates a recording mode adjustment, but it surprises me if this is a commonly used feature because re-encoding diminished the pq. When I exchanged my 633 for a 640, I had to backup some programs to DVD and later put them back on the HDD to add to a compilation. Unfortunately I couldn't high-speed copy from DVD to HD for later editing, so I had to copy/re-encode in real-time. After re-encoding (SP to SP) I was impressed with how well the 640 handled it, but I did notice a drop in pq compared to the programs in the compilation that were only encoded once. For this reason I always try to get the bitrate right the first time if I plan to make a DVD copy. (Plus, I hate having to wait for real-time copies.)

Do most users use auto-adjust? They must, or Pioneer thinks they do, since the default at the auto-adjust prompt is YES.My 640 always defaults to "No". Are you sure yours defaults to "Yes"? I even tested it with Optimize mode on in case that made a difference, but it didn't.

ACPewty

09-20-06, 01:30 AM

This is a bit of a drag as I sometimes forget to load the disc as I enter the Copy List function. If I want to transfer something (in real time of course) that I recorded in XP mode onto DVD in SP mode, then I must abort what I have done, load the disc & reassemble my copy list.

It doesn't make much sense to me but I try to have that disc in first now.

Yes, it makes the recording quality adjustments as you build up the Copy List, based on the disc size. No disc and it can't/won't make the adjustments, leaving you with a useless Copy List when you do finally put a disc in. You could put a Dual Layer disc in and all the bitrate calculations it made would be wrong if it just assumed a single-layer disc was the target of the copy. Ideally it would just recalculate appropriate recording qualities once a disc is inserted, but I guess they didn't think of that, or it was too much trouble. So you really have to put a disc in prior to starting to build a Copy List.Just compile/edit your copy list first, then put in a disc and change the recording mode on the last copy screen's menu. If you want it to calculate for you, just select optimize. (You don't have to have Optimize Mode on in the initial setup menu...you still get the option.)

voranis

09-21-06, 11:55 AM

After the disc capacity is exceeded, the 640 only asks if you want to adjust the recording mode each time you add a title to the copy list if you always answer "Yes" to the question. If you answer "No", it won't ask again and then you can adjust the recording mode on the final screen's menu, including optimize and all the manual speeds.

I know there may be occasional instances where poor planning necessitates a recording mode adjustment, but it surprises me if this is a commonly used feature because re-encoding diminished the pq. When I exchanged my 633 for a 640, I had to backup some programs to DVD and later put them back on the HDD to add to a compilation. Unfortunately I couldn't high-speed copy from DVD to HD for later editing, so I had to copy/re-encode in real-time. After re-encoding (SP to SP) I was impressed with how well the 640 handled it, but I did notice a drop in pq compared to the programs in the compilation that were only encoded once. For this reason I always try to get the bitrate right the first time if I plan to make a DVD copy. (Plus, I hate having to wait for real-time copies.)

My 640 always defaults to "No". Are you sure yours defaults to "Yes"? I even tested it with Optimize mode on in case that made a difference, but it didn't.

Yes, it asks if I want to adjust the recording mode, and I always have to arrow from the YES button (which is on the right and currently highlighted) over to the NO button on the left. I inadvertently started some real-time copies the first few times I used it because I hit Enter without reading the prompt, so I know YES is the default on my machine. You're right that it only asks once, though--after I say NO the first time it doesn't ask anymore, but I wish I could enable a "don't ask at all" option.

I usually get THREE prompts (and I'm paraphrasing here, I can't remember the exact words):

(1) Some points may have moved slightly during copying. I have to hit ENTER to acknowledge this prompt.

(2) The material won't fit; do you want to adjust? I have to arrow over to the NO button to say NO.

(3) A third prompt asks me if I'm "really sure" about this. I have to hit ENTER to acknowledge it.

It seems a pain to go through all these prompts. But it sounds like the prompting I'm getting is different from what others are getting; maybe there is some option I can/need to change that I don't know about?

wajo

09-21-06, 12:03 PM

AC, I get the same prompts.

voranis

09-21-06, 12:03 PM

Just compile/edit your copy list first, then put in a disc and change the recording mode on the last copy screen's menu. If you want it to calculate for you, just select optimize. (You don't have to have Optimize Mode on in the initial setup menu...you still get the option.)

I can't go forward to build a copy list on the 640 until a disc is loaded. After I select Copy, then HDD->DVD, I get a screen that says no disc is loaded. It gives two options, the second being "Load a disc later", but both options are disabled so I can't do anything. In fact, the whole screen is grayed out. I can't figure out when this screen can ever be used. As soon as the disc finishes loading, the machine automatically replaces the grayed-out screen I have just described with the list of titles to select from for copying. But in the meantime I have been blocked until the disc finishes loading. Although the amount of time to wait isn't that much, even that small amount of time has made the difference in the past on my 520 in getting a copy started soon enough for it to finish in time for me to clear the disk space to start another recording on time...

Do we have different models or configurations or something?

ACPewty

09-21-06, 02:36 PM

I can't go forward to build a copy list on the 640 until a disc is loaded. After I select Copy, then HDD->DVD, I get a screen that says no disc is loaded. It gives two options, the second being "Load a disc later", but both options are disabled so I can't do anything. In fact, the whole screen is grayed out. I can't figure out when this screen can ever be used. As soon as the disc finishes loading, the machine automatically replaces the grayed-out screen I have just described with the list of titles to select from for copying. But in the meantime I have been blocked until the disc finishes loading. Although the amount of time to wait isn't that much, even that small amount of time has made the difference in the past on my 520 in getting a copy started soon enough for it to finish in time for me to clear the disk space to start another recording on time...

Do we have different models or configurations or something?Do you have the North American model?

Here's what I do exactly. (I'm confirming while typing as I have a 640 in my office.):

1) Select Copy from Home Menu
2) Enter to select for HDD -> DVD
3) Select "Create a new copy List"
4) At the Please Load a recordable Disc, I select "No Load a Disc later"
5) On the next screen I select the type of disc I will use: DVD-R/-RW
6) Next Screen, I Select Video Mode
7) Next screen, I select the titles I want to copy (Yes, annoyingly every title I select gives me a prompt: "High Speed copying in video mode may result in edit points moving slightly") I stay on that screen until all titles are selected. If I exceed the capacity of the disk, there is a prompt: "The disk capacity is exceeded. OK to continue?" I select Yes. (Default is No) When Done, Next to go to Title Edit screen.
8) On Tiitle Edit screen, Enter on each title to Erase, edit the title name, erase section, move, preview, Divide, Combine, Chapter Edit, Set Thumbnail and adjust recording mode. (I never adjust the recording mode here.) To get to the final "Start Copy" screen, I have to insert a blank DVD.
9) After confirming I have enough space on the disc, I check the recording mode (in case I hit the wrong button earlier,) to make sure I am set for high-speed copy. (This is where you can select another recording speed or "Optimize" which will force a real-time copy.) I can then input a disc name and select finalize before pressing enter on the "Start Copy" button.
10 If I chose to finalize, before the copy begins I am brought to the menu template selection screen where I select the menu I want and then the copy begins without any further confirmation prompts.

If you do have the North American model, have you changed any Initial Setup...Recording options? I have manual Recording ON and Optimized Recording OFF, Thumbnails are set at 3 minutes. I believe the rest are defaults. (HDD Recording Format is Video Mode ON.)

wajo

09-21-06, 03:04 PM

ACPewty

09-21-06, 03:36 PM

So...to all those I've been telling, "yes, you can make copies while recording to the HDD," I have to add, "...except if you change the recoding mode for the DVD to anything other than high-speed."I guess that makes sense...only one encoder circuit and it is busy recording already right?

I can also confirm you can't finalize a DVD during a timer recording as this came up the other day...didn't finish my editing in time before a timer event fired up.

I have one more little nugget for today: Yesterday I tried hooking up an external HDD (an old 2.something Gb hdd in a Bytecc ME-320U2 enclosure) to the usb port of the 640 and it worked. Don't get too excited though, because it just works for playing/copying music and for the photoviewer. I formatted the HDD as FAT16 because I believe that's what it wants and others have reported trouble on FAT32 USB devices.

So, an external HDD works, but it isn't that big a deal since FAT16 has a 4Gb limit. If the 640 is like Win98/ME/DOS it is limited to 2 Gb per partition and we know the 640 can only see 1 partition. We can now buy 2Gb USB flash drives so why bother with a bulky external HDD if the limit is 2Gb? There certainly didn't appear to be any speed advantage...still slow loading large jpgs.

bobkart

09-21-06, 03:39 PM

ACPewty

09-21-06, 05:02 PM

Yeah the bottleneck would seem to be the USB1.1 transfer speed of 12Mb/s. Or is it USB2.0?

As far as it's concerned (or a PC for that matter), a USB hard drive and a USB flash drive look like the same thing.It's probably USB 1.1, (judging by how slowly it copied from USB to HDD,) but viewing pics is slow regardless of whether you view from USB, CD or HDD. Seems to me for the amount of video data any DVDR is pushing, the processor must be pretty fast so I don't know if it is a video RAM /rendering software issue or what. I know large jpgs have to be sampled and resized and that is processor intensive, but I would say that even slower computers blow it away. No biggie for me though since the slideshow continues loading while you view a picture. It's still useable but I do wish it was faster for when I am searching for a specific photo. I'm not going to complain because it isn't why I bought the 640, plus the photoviewer has saved me lots of cash in photo paper and printer ink. (Don't have to print copies to show pics to family & friends.)

voranis

09-21-06, 10:29 PM

Do you have the North American model?

Here's what I do exactly. (I'm confirming while typing as I have a 640 in my office.):

1) Select Copy from Home Menu
2) Enter to select for HDD -> DVD
3) Select "Create a new copy List"
4) At the Please Load a recordable Disc, I select "No Load a Disc later"
5) On the next screen I select the type of disc I will use: DVD-R/-RW
6) Next Screen, I Select Video Mode
7) Next screen, I select the titles I want to copy (Yes, annoyingly every title I select gives me a prompt: "High Speed copying in video mode may result in edit points moving slightly") I stay on that screen until all titles are selected. If I exceed the capacity of the disk, there is a prompt: "The disk capacity is exceeded. OK to continue?" I select Yes. (Default is No) When Done, Next to go to Title Edit screen.
8) On Tiitle Edit screen, Enter on each title to Erase, edit the title name, erase section, move, preview, Divide, Combine, Chapter Edit, Set Thumbnail and adjust recording mode. (I never adjust the recording mode here.) To get to the final "Start Copy" screen, I have to insert a blank DVD.
9) After confirming I have enough space on the disc, I check the recording mode (in case I hit the wrong button earlier,) to make sure I am set for high-speed copy. (This is where you can select another recording speed or "Optimize" which will force a real-time copy.) I can then input a disc name and select finalize before pressing enter on the "Start Copy" button.
10 If I chose to finalize, before the copy begins I am brought to the menu template selection screen where I select the menu I want and then the copy begins without any further confirmation prompts.

If you do have the North American model, have you changed any Initial Setup...Recording options? I have manual Recording ON and Optimized Recording OFF, Thumbnails are set at 3 minutes. I believe the rest are defaults. (HDD Recording Format is Video Mode ON.)

A couple of things:

(1) I think I have the North American model--I bought it in the U.S.

(2) I noticed tonight when making a copy that you were right about the default being NO for the "The disc capacity is exceeded. The recording mode will be adjusted..." prompt. I guess it was the next prompt I was thinking of, "OK to continue?", where the default is never what I want--the default is NO, I have to arrow left to the YES button every time.

(3) I began assembling a copy list the way you outlined and, lo and behold, the "Load a disc later" screen was enabled! I now know what the difference is--in this case, I hadn't put a disc in yet, but normally, I have put a blank disc in. If I have put just put a blank disc in and it is still loading, the "Load a disc later" screen is completely grayed out until the blank disc has finished loading. This is different from my 520 where I can begin assembling the copy list while the blank disc is loading. The 640 makes you wait until the disc is fully loaded if there is one in the tray. The "Load a disc later" option is only available if there's no disc at all in the tray.

My point remains, that with the 520 I could load a blank disc, begin assembling the copy list WHILE the disc is loading, and by the time I am on the final screen the disc is usually fully loaded and am I ready to go. (In other words, I can do the disc load and copy list creation in parallel.) With the 640 I must either wait until the disc is fully loaded before creating the copy list, or don't put a disc in until after I create the copy list. Either way I cannot do the tasks in parallel with the 640 the way I can with the 520...

voranis

09-21-06, 10:36 PM

I'm following this discussion...nice writeup on procedure, AC...and I found a "new" thing (at least to me)...I've always been able to make DVD copies while recording something to the HDD (my wife is still amazed at this!). I just found out a situation where you CAN'T make a DVD copy while recording to the HDD.

I tried to make a copy from HDD > DVD while the HDD was recording a timer-set show. I tried to change the Recording Mode from the default High Speed to another speed, and I got this message:

"HDD recording in progress. Cannot copy. Please set the recording mode to high-speed."

So...to all those I've been telling, "yes, you can make copies while recording to the HDD," I have to add, "...except if you change the recoding mode for the DVD to anything other than high-speed."

That's what I would have expected...I know with my 520, I could start a high-speed copy and then start a timer recording, but I couldn't start a timer recording if a real-time copy was in progress.

Another thing--I know with the 520, if I have a high-speed copy going AND a timer recording in progress, I cannot watch a title already on the HDD. If I try to watch a title, the machine basically says "forget it." The first time it happened, I thought, "not unreasonable, the machine is already doing a LOT." I can watch a title while a timer recording is in progress, and I believe I can watch a title while a copy is in progress, and I can have a timer recording and HS copy in progress at the same time (as long as the copy was started first on the 520), but not all three at the same time. I don't know if that's true for the 640 or not, haven't tried that yet.

ACPewty

09-21-06, 11:35 PM

This is different from my 520 where I can begin assembling the copy list while the blank disc is loading. The 640 makes you wait until the disc is fully loaded if there is one in the tray. Yup, it is pretty apparent that Pioneer made a number of changes from the 2005 models to make the system more idiot-proof for users who don't like to read manuals etc. There are more on-screen prompts, and I think they are trying to auto-detect the DVD type (+/-R) so we have less write failures and therefore less complaints and calls to customer service.

Unfortunately, we anal types who prefer to do our homework and fully understand our equipment usually end up losing features and convenience in the name of "user friendliness". I guess the stupids and the lazys make up the lion's share of the market. :(

I'm still have my fingers and toes crossed for a firmware update to address the timer event titling issue, and maybe that will be addressed too. I hope I'm not being too optimistic considering last year's track record. I'm sure Pioneer was in a hurry to get the 640 out to help resolve all the TVGOS issues of 2005 models, but maybe they learned their lesson and allowed for firmware updates to resolve minor issues after the release? IMHO we should all be calling customer service to ask about a firmware update for the timer event titling issue and anything else that is lacking because if the wheel don't squeak, there's no reason to oil it.

voranis

09-22-06, 01:42 AM

Yup, it is pretty apparent that Pioneer made a number of changes from the 2005 models to make the system more idiot-proof for users who don't like to read manuals etc. There are more on-screen prompts, and I think they are trying to auto-detect the DVD type (+/-R) so we have less write failures and therefore less complaints and calls to customer service.

Unfortunately, we anal types who prefer to do our homework and fully understand our equipment usually end up losing features and convenience in the name of "user friendliness". I guess the stupids and the lazys make up the lion's share of the market. :(

I'm still have my fingers and toes crossed for a firmware update to address the timer event titling issue, and maybe that will be addressed too. I hope I'm not being too optimistic considering last year's track record. I'm sure Pioneer was in a hurry to get the 640 out to help resolve all the TVGOS issues of 2005 models, but maybe they learned their lesson and allowed for firmware updates to resolve minor issues after the release? IMHO we should all be calling customer service to ask about a firmware update for the timer event titling issue and anything else that is lacking because if the wheel don't squeak, there's no reason to oil it.

After all my misstatements in this forum so far, I feel I'm in the "stupid" category. I've made hundreds of copies on the 640 and couldn't remember what the prompts were like. And I started thinking of my 520s as 533s because I had read about so many 533s in the forum. My memory is just not as sharp as it once was.

I thought the 520 was user-friendly enough in this regard in that it stopped the user from starting the copy on the final screen until the disc was loaded. But maybe there is some value in warning the user earlier so they can fix things sooner, although it still seems the less commonly used path ("the error path").

I bought a TVGOS model last year and quickly returned it. I disabled the TVGOS right away because I have satellite (I didn't buy it for the TVGOS, I just wanted a new Pioneer recorder), but the manual timer screen was this tiny screen on the left which I could hardly read, and there was a huge area on the right for the events already scheduled. It was horrible. The 640 is much more like my 520s in this regard--a nice, clean list of timer events and when you want to set up a new one you get a new full screen to work with. The worst thing was that when a recording was in progress, when I tried to set up a new recording, I couldn't seem to move focus over to the manual recording section to set up a new one, and the cursor seemed to get stuck or be non-responsive. So even though there was a huge area on the right showing timer events, I usually only had one in the list because I couldn't set up any additional ones. It seemed to be poor use of screen real estate. I know some folks were persistent enough or smart enough to wait for or make fixes for some of it, but I didn't have any patience for it and didn't think I would ever figure out how to make it work better.

If the event titling is what I think it is, I certainly wish it was available; my 520s and 640 have so many titles on them, and I rarely go back and re-title them afterwards, it's a nightmare searching through to find things. I also wish there were more grouping capabilities. I'd like to be able to create as many directories/folders as I like, name them what I like--basically have a file system structure equivalent to My Documents on Windows or a user's home directory on Unix, etc. I know there are a small number of groups (my 520s only have 4, I think the 640 has more), but I'd like to be able to have more, with longer names, and be able to move titles freely around between groups. And be able to navigate through them more like a typical file system.

All things said, the Pioneer machines in general are things of beauty compared to most other brands. I won't forget the first Panasonic I bought that had no concept of a copy or play list at all, so when I had two two-hour movies recorded back-to-back in one title, I had to sacrifice one of them to record the other to DVD. I returned the unit and bought my first Pioneer 520 right after, and it had a copy list, and I thought, "if Pioneer realized the need for this, what is taking Panasonic so long?"

I keep thinking I should write Pioneer a letter about what I would like to see in future models, but I keep thinking what I want is probably not practical or what most users would want--I tend to focus on unusual aspects...

wajo

09-22-06, 01:55 AM

You'll be sorry to hear that, recently, there were published news articles about Pioneer losing so much money in their consumer DVD recorder business, they were going to stop producing them and would concentrate on their emerging HD equipment.

Urlee

09-22-06, 08:50 AM

ACPewty

09-22-06, 10:20 AM

On the Pio 640,
In Initial Set Up Menu, do you have Auto Chapter 10m checked or No Separation?
If one has the No Separation, does that mean it does away with all those "white" lines put there when you erase the commercials?My Auto Chapter settings are left at the default of 10 minutes. I haven't bothered with these settings because they only apply to real-time copies or real-time recording directly to DVD, and I try to avoid doing either of them. I prefer to record to HDD and then high-speed copy to DVD to retain the best pq.

This has nothing to do with the chapter markers that are inserted when you erase commercials. They will be retained when you high-speed copy to a DVD, but if you instead do a real-time copy or use "optimized" recording mode which also re-encodes, then the auto-chapter mark settings will take affect and you will lose your original chapter marks where commercials were removed.
Do you have Seamless Playback on or off? What does that do if on?I have left seamless playback off. According to the manual, seamless playback only applies to HDD, DVD-R/-RW (VR) and DVD-RAM playback. I believe it is used to reduce the pauses caused by edit points in VR mode edits not done at key frames (every 15th frame) and therefore make playback smoother over edit points like video mode, but the edit point won't necessarily be at the exact frame where you intended it to be. I only use video mode, so I don't think it affects me. I have tested it on and off playing back a video mode recording and watching edit points and I noticed no difference. Maybe someone who uses VR mode can chime in here.

Urlee

09-22-06, 10:38 AM

My Auto Chapter settings are left at the default of 10 minutes. I haven't bothered with these settings because they only apply to real-time copies or real-time recording directly to DVD, and I try to avoid doing either of them. I prefer to record to HDD and then high-speed copy to DVD to retain the best pq.

This has nothing to do with the chapter markers that are inserted when you erase commercials. They will be retained when you high-speed copy to a DVD, but if you instead do a real-time copy or use "optimized" recording mode which also re-encodes, then the auto-chapter mark settings will take affect and you will lose your original chapter marks where commercials were removed.
I have left seamless playback off. According to the manual, seamless playback only applies to HDD, DVD-R/-RW (VR) and DVD-RAM playback. I believe it is used to reduce the pauses caused by edit points in VR mode edits not done at key frames (every 15th frame) and therefore make playback smoother over edit points like video mode, but the edit point won't necessarily be at the exact frame where you intended it to be. I only use video mode, so I don't think it affects me. I have tested it on and off playing back a video mode recording and watching edit points and I noticed no difference. Maybe someone who uses VR mode can chime in here.

Thanks pewty,
I shall leave well enough alone as I am getting satisfactory burns.
I also have been using Video mode only and high speed copy.

My problem now is: I love my Pio DVR so much, should I save up to buy ANOTHER Pio 640 incase they are no more? :eek:
Pioneer quit making DVR's??????? :(

Urlee

wajo

09-22-06, 10:43 AM

My problem now is: I love my Pio DVR so much, should I save up to buy ANOTHER Pio 640 incase they are no more? :eek:
Pioneer quit making DVR's??????? :(
According to published reports, that's true...but then, if we all go out and buy another 640, they may be convinced to continue making Pio-neerperfect DVD recorders? I need one for the bedroom...hmmmm!

ACPewty

09-22-06, 11:30 AM

Thanks pewty,
I shall leave well enough alone as I am getting satisfactory burns.
I also have been using Video mode only and high speed copy.

My problem now is: I love my Pio DVR so much, should I save up to buy ANOTHER Pio 640 incase they are no more? :eek:
Pioneer quit making DVR's??????? :(

UrleeI already bought my 2nd one. :p

Actually, do we really know they will stop producing DVD recorders? I thought the report was that they were going to stop research & development on DVD recorders. Does that necessarily mean there won't be a 2007 model?

At any rate, as much as I like my 640s I consider them to be temporary until HD recorders are reliable and reasonably priced. I expect we should see them available with similar or even better features before our 640's bite the dust.

ZZen

09-22-06, 01:05 PM

Is it true that this machine ONLY has Component as an output? No S-video or composite output at all. The specs seem to indicate that it as 3 S/av inputs (1 front, 2 rear) and lists the only output as Component. I know component is a better quality output but I won't do any playback from this machine, recording only and have run out of component inputs on my tv (don't want to use a switcher). So does it not have an s video output? Thx.

wajo

09-22-06, 01:27 PM

Besides the Component out, it has two S-Video/composite Outputs, #1 and #2.

It also has a coax digital Output.

For Inputs, it has three S-Video/composite, #1 and#3 in back, #2 in front.

ZZen

09-22-06, 02:15 PM

thx wabjxo!

Also, why can't it high speed copy from DVD to HD (to make a copy) of DL disc?

And don't people find the whole "MN##" thing a pain compared to Panny FR where you just punch in the hour:min that you want rather than having to refer to a chart or memorize what all the MN speed times are?

The Pioneer is much cheaper than the Panny eh55 in Canada so I'm just trying to see if I can live with the less user friendly (seemingly) Pioneer.

Lastly the Panny has the double resolution LP mode so it seems from what I've read that when you start going over 3 hrs that the Panny is better quality while under the Pioneer is equal or better. I record many sport events that are 3-4 hrs in length so would I sacrifice quality with the Pioneer assuming I want it all on one disc?

Thanks for any answers. I'm looking to buy one of these later today or tomorrow.

wajo

09-22-06, 02:36 PM

Also, why can't it high speed copy from DVD to HD (to make a copy) of DL disc?
Sorry, haven't used any DL discs.

And don't people find the whole "MN##" thing a pain compared to Panny FR where you just punch in the hour:min that you want rather than having to refer to a chart or memorize what all the MN speed times are?
As I understand FR mode, it just "optimizes" the quality to fit on a normal, single-layer DVD. So, for a 2hr:30m show, the quality/bit rate will be set/varied so the 2:30 fits within 2:00.

I "cheated" here and read ACPewty's explanation of the real, practical purpose for MN settings, and deleted my lame attempt...see his post below.

The MN speeds are also just another "option" in the 640...they are actually not turned on as default, you have to turn them on in Setup. Once turned on, they just become more of the speed/quality options you are given when setting up a recording.

The 640 also has an AUTO mode for Recording and an OPTIMIZED mode for Copying which are the same as FR mode, where the show will always fit on a DVD.

The Pioneer is much cheaper than the Panny eh55 in Canada so I'm just trying to see if I can live with the less user friendly (seemingly) Pioneer.
The 640 is extremely user-friendly. It might offer more alternatives in some areas, which some might consider "unfriendly"???

Lastly the Panny has the double resolution LP mode so it seems from what I've read that when you start going over 3 hrs that the Panny is better quality while under the Pioneer is equal or better. I record many sport events that are 3-4 hrs in length so would I sacrifice quality with the Pioneer assuming I want it all on one disc?
The 640 now has full (720x480) res. at LP and most scenes look "as good as" SP. (The 2005 53x/63x series did not have this.) Only when fast-moving objects appear (e.g., following a wide receiver in a football game...moving camera and moving object) can you notice any diff., mostly in the moving edges. With fast-moving objects or fast camera pans, not sure if the Panny is any diff.

Hopefully, this helps without adding "undue" confusion or the appearance of "unfriendliness"...it's really not. :)

ACPewty

09-22-06, 03:03 PM

And don't people find the whole "MN##" thing a pain compared to Panny FR where you just punch in the hour:min that you want rather than having to refer to a chart or memorize what all the MN speed times are?Just to reiterate: Pioneer also has the "Auto" recording mode (like Panasonic's FR mode) which automatically selects the best bitrate for the length of the show to fit on a single layer DVD. The advantage of using the manual MN speeds is you can manually set a speed so your recording fills the DVD AFTER editing out commercials. If the show has no commercials I just use Auto, but if I know I will have to remove commercials I want to select the best quality setting that will still fit on the DVD after editing. Only Pioneer has this. Lastly the Panny has the double resolution LP mode so it seems from what I've read that when you start going over 3 hrs that the Panny is better quality while under the Pioneer is equal or better. I record many sport events that are 3-4 hrs in length so would I sacrifice quality with the Pioneer assuming I want it all on one disc?As wabjxo said, the 640 has improved quality/resolution over last year's models. Panasonic enthusiasts liked/like to point out that Panasonic had better LP mode than Pioneer last year, but it was only really important to them, because Pioneer owners have more options for better bitrates between SP(2 hours) and LP(4 hours). No one has reported a direct comparison between 2006 models yet, but it still seems like Pioneer has always had the edge under 4 hours and probably there is little difference now at LP mode.

In fact, there have been numerous posts that the Pioneer (especially the 640) has the most "user friendly" interface and is easiest to use for editing etc. BTW: AFIAK it is the only model that can high-speed copy a DVD bit for bit. I haven't tried to high-speed copy a DL DVD yet, but I know there are a few things the manual says you can't high-speed copy (like VR mode DVDs wabjxo?) but in fact you can. If you don't really need DV-IN or the finicky TVGOS, I highly recommend the 640.

wajo

09-22-06, 03:28 PM

. I haven't tried to high-speed copy a DL DVD yet, but I know there are a few things the manual says you can't high-speed copy (like VR mode DVDs wabjxo?) but in fact you can. If you don't really need DV-IN or the finicky TVGOS, I highly recommend the 640.
HS Copies HDD > DVD
You can HS copy from the HDD to VR- or Video-mode DVDs, whether you have the HDD set for VR- or Video-mode, even tho' the manual "suggests" you can't if set for VR (Video Mode Off), OR...

You can use "One-Touch Copy" to copy the currently selected or already playing title from HDD > DVD in HS ( a "one-button" copy method).

HS Copies DVD > HDD
You can HS copy finalized and unfinalized VR-mode DVDs to the HDD.

Real-Time & HS Copies, Finalized DVD > HDD
You can use "One-Touch Copy" (the "one-button" method) for a real-time copy. The copy on the HDD is playable and copyable just like any other copy from DVD > HDD, OR...

You can make a "Backup" copy, which is at HS. A copy is first made to the HDD (which can't be played), from which you can make one or more DVD copies. The copy on the HDD remains for future copies, or can be deleted...still can't be played, however. You can have only one Backup copy on the HDD at any time.

voranis

09-22-06, 04:58 PM

You can HS copy from the HDD to VR- or Video-mode DVDs, whether you have the HDD set for VR- or Video-mode, even tho' the manual "suggests" you can't if set for VR (Video Mode Off).

You can also HS copy unfinalized VR- or Video-mode DVDs to the HDD.

You can make "Backup" copies of finalized DVDs. The copy is first made to the HDD (which can't be played), from which you can make one or more DVD copies. The copy on the HDD remains for future copies, or can be deleted...still can't be played, however.

That's neat. The manual for my Pioneer 520 said it could do HS copies of unfinalized DVDs to the HDD but I have always found they took place in real time, the same as finalized ones. Eventually I checked the manul more carefully and it said the HS copy could only be done from unfinalized VR-mode DVDs, and I never make any VR-mode DVDs. The only difference on the 520 is that copying unfinalized (video-mode) DVD titles to the HDD preserves the title name and thumbnail, while copying finalized DVD titles using one-touch copy doesn't. Glad to hear the 640 can do HS copies on unfinalized video-mode DVDs, too.

My 520 will do backup copies too. Usually if I'm doing HS copies, I make multiple copies using HS copy, since it's usually faster (2 hours at 8 minutes) than the backup way (which always takes about 12-13 minutes each way, I think). But if I want backup copies of a DVD I had to copy in real time because I had to adjust the recording quality to fit, then I use the backup operation because it's much faster.

voranis

09-22-06, 05:20 PM

If the show has no commercials I just use Auto, but if I know I will have to remove commercials I want to select the best quality setting that will still fit on the DVD after editing.

Uh-oh! I guess I have not been doing my copies right? When I copy something that I know will be longer than 2 hours even after editing, I edit out the commercials, then on the final screen (the one where you can enter the disc name) I change the recording mode to Optimized. Do you mean changing to Optimized on the final screen doesn't take into account the current size of the copy list (after having edited out commercials on the previous screen)? If so then I have not been getting the best recording quality I can fit on the DVD...

suplex

09-22-06, 07:02 PM

Has anyone in here noticed how annoying it is when you are changing between CAPITOL and lowercase letters, how it always starts over with the "A"?

Let's say for an example you wanted to enter the word "Stop" where the "S" is CAPS and the "top" is lowercase, well the "t" comes right after the "S" in the lineup on screen, but when you enter the Capitol "S", then turn the Caps off to enter the "t", you have to start all over at the "A" instead of just going one curser to the right and selecting the "t".

This of course is if you use the arrows on the remote instead of the 0-9 keys which are each assigned letters as well.

I know there is no fix for this, but I just wanted to state how annoying it is that it does that.

wajo

09-22-06, 07:20 PM

That's neat. The manual for my Pioneer 520 said it could do HS copies of unfinalized DVDs to the HDD but I have always found they took place in real time, the same as finalized ones. Eventually I checked the manul more carefully and it said the HS copy could only be done from unfinalized VR-mode DVDs, and I never make any VR-mode DVDs.
Sorry to all...in my post above, which I tried to get in before the thunderstorm hit my back yard, I said the 640 can HS copy finalized and unfinalized Video-mode discs.

Unfortunately, I should have said only VR-mode discs. Unfinalized Video-mode discs will only copy to HDD in the speed they're recorded in, or you can change that speed, but not to HS. (I'm going to change my post above.)

I learned something else about Disc Backup of finalized Video-mode discs...it produces copies that are already finalized. It goes thru the menus and never asks if you want the copy finalized. It apparently does it automatically (or simply "recreates" the Finalized environment?).

bobkart

09-22-06, 07:45 PM

By copying everything on the source disc exactly, the Finalization present on the source disc is copied to the destination disc. Think of it just like copying a disc on a PC.

ZZen

09-22-06, 08:38 PM

wajo

09-22-06, 09:08 PM

Well I just picked up this unit and am about to set it up. It seems to have a couple annoying little 'glitches' form reading this thread.

1. A dvd that was burned and finalized on this machine, when put in another dvd player it won't automatically go to the menu, it will just sit there until you press menu or play. That seems odd, not a big deal, but sometimes you make a disc for other people that are not technically with it (parents, etc) and they are used to jsut popping a disc in, waiting for the menu to come up, then selecting something.

2. Thing about entered titles not sticking, not a big deal I guess.

3. What suplex just said about the changing to CAPS sending the cursor back to A.

To me #1 is the most potentially annoying thing.

Well I'm going to go connect it up and play around. I've got a 30 day return period if needed but hopefully I'll like it.

Thx for the info!
#1 - A Pioneer thing...you do have to press PLAY, even in the 640 that created it.

#2 - No fix for that...yet.

#3 - I do all my titles in all caps...easier to read...so I avoid that "problem."

#4 - I predict you won't like the 640 and will be returning it...if you haven't already!?

Sean Nelson

09-22-06, 10:58 PM

Has anyone in here noticed how annoying it is when you are changing between CAPITOL and lowercase letters, how it always starts over with the "A"?

This of course is if you use the arrows on the remote instead of the 0-9 keys which are each assigned letters as well.If you do any significant amount of title entry I highly recommend using the numeric keypad. You'll be amazed how quickly you get used to it, and it's much, much faster than the arrow keys.

ACPewty

09-23-06, 12:19 AM

Uh-oh! I guess I have not been doing my copies right? When I copy something that I know will be longer than 2 hours even after editing, I edit out the commercials, then on the final screen (the one where you can enter the disc name) I change the recording mode to Optimized. Do you mean changing to Optimized on the final screen doesn't take into account the current size of the copy list (after having edited out commercials on the previous screen)? If so then I have not been getting the best recording quality I can fit on the DVD...Optimized copies do indeed take into account the current size of the copy list, but the problem is an optimized mode copy is a real-time copy that encodes a 2nd time. Although the 640 does a good job, you are losing pq compared to using the correct bitrate in the first place and then doing a high-speed copy which copies bit-for-bit with no re-encoding and therefore no loss of pq.

I just use the chart on page 125 of the manual to estimate the best MN speed/bitrate I can get assuming roughly 10 to 20 minutes of commercials per hour, depending on the network etc . Example: If a movie is 3 hours including commercials, then I will probably end up with at most 2.5 hours (150 minutes) after editing out the commercials, so according to the chart in video mode I should use MN18. In my experience if I record at MN18 and then high-speed copy to DVD I will get noticably better pq than if I do an optimized copy, and it is much faster too...roughly 8 minutes on 16x -R media.

Usually (depending on the content), you may have enough space left over due to extra compression of dark or still sequences etc that you could have used the next higher MN rate, and as you get more experienced in recording certain shows you may be able to push the envelope more by selecting a higher bitrate, but to me it's a drag when you end up with say 4.5Gb of data and only 4.4Gb of space on the DVD which forces you to either cut out some content (credits) or do an optimized copy.

If you are using a small screen tv you may not notice as much, but try the manual bitrates. That 2nd encoding required for optimized mode costs you pq and considerable time for the copy to DVD.

ACPewty

09-23-06, 12:45 AM

Well I just picked up this unit and am about to set it up. It seems to have a couple annoying little 'glitches' form reading this thread.

1. A dvd that was burned and finalized on this machine, when put in another dvd player it won't automatically go to the menu, it will just sit there until you press menu or play. That seems odd, not a big deal, but sometimes you make a disc for other people that are not technically with it (parents, etc) and they are used to jsut popping a disc in, waiting for the menu to come up, then selecting something.

2. Thing about entered titles not sticking, not a big deal I guess.

3. What suplex just said about the changing to CAPS sending the cursor back to A.

To me #1 is the most potentially annoying thing.

Well I'm going to go connect it up and play around. I've got a 30 day return period if needed but hopefully I'll like it.

Thx for the info!IMHO the superior pq, flexibility and additional features of the 640 make it a keeper despite these minor glitches. I personally dislike when a DVD starts up automatically...sometimes I want to load it in preparation for viewing later and don't want to interrupt what is already on-screen.

If you are considering returning the 640 over these minor issues, I doubt you will find a replacement you are happy with. Consider the "glitches" of the alternatives: Unreliable TVGOS problems, missed timer recordings, inferior pq, loss of all HDD recordings due to fragmentation, (or having to regularly reformat to avoid that,) difficult or missing editing features etc etc. Give it a bit of time to prove itself and I bet you'll decide it's a keeper too.

ZZen

09-23-06, 01:39 AM

Guys I wrote that last post after I bought it but before I set it up. So I wasn't at that point already considering returning it. I just meant that I have some time to try it out, get used to it, etc. I don't know why that other guy said he predicts I won't like it and return it (reverse psychology?). I will give it a fair chance as I know I can't expect to be totally familiar with it in one day.

So I have now set it up and played around with it a bit, recorded stuff to the HDD. Recording quality seems quite good. I will say that this units RF tuner, sent live to my tv over component gives a mcuh better sd analog channel pic than the cable straight into the tv, better than SD from my set box over component, and better than the same setup with the Panny es-15 I owned for a couple weeks some months ago. Very impressive RF tuner ---> component output.

Now I do feel that so far the Panny es-15 seemed more intuitive/better layout of the menu screens, entering info, etc. For example, when setting a timer recording (not easy timer) you have to use arrows for everything while the Panny I could enter numbers for channel, start time, etc. Also for setting the clock the auto method tells you to enter the channel that has the time info. Well heck I dont know what channel has that so I have to sit there trying each channel until I find it. Every VCR and the Panny I had just scan through the channels and finds it. Not a big deal I know the channel now incase I need to do it again but still. Maybe I just liked the "look and feel" of the Panny interface better. Panny's chase play was more intuitive as it had a TimeSlip button where you could slip +/- however many minutes. The Pioneer doesn't have that function for chase play except using CM skip and pressing it repeatedly, but that doesn't work as well.

Now before you all say "go buy the EH55S" then. There is a reason I took the es-15 back (granted after returning it I also decided I had to get a HDD unit so the choices became 640 vs eh55). I tried two es15 and both had freezing problems, stuck finalizing once, remote became unresponsive, etc. I know there was a firmware update about the unresponsive remote but I was fed up with it's sketchy performance by that time. Even with those issues which may have also plagued the 55 I was considering it due to its' features like HDMI, etc. Ultimately I decided I didn't care about HDMI for a recorder, I didn't need DV-in, don't care about the card reader, decided I don't need TVGOS because I plan to upgrade my HD set box to a HD PVR unit soon, and most importantly the Pio at the price I got it for was $170-240 CDN cheaper than the eh55.

With that much price difference I said heck with the flaky Panny. So I will give this 640 a fair shake and I actually HOPE I end up liking it because it will save me a lot of $. That saved money can go to upgrading my STB to a PVR. That is my plan anyways.

I'll play with it more tomorrow and update with my thoughts.

ACPewty

09-23-06, 01:49 AM

Panny's chase play was more intuitive as it had a TimeSlip button where you could slip +/- however many minutes. The Pioneer doesn't have that function for chase play except using CM skip and pressing it repeatedly, but that doesn't work as well.The 640 does have that feature. Check out Play Mode...Time Search. It also has title search and chapter search.

Urlee

09-23-06, 07:47 AM

I need one for the bedroom...hmmmm!

Same here.
And the other night, I had two shows on at the same time I would liked to have recorded.
Hope you all haven't bought out the 640's by the time I can get another if I decide to do so? :)

Urlee

alan linell

09-23-06, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by ZZen:

I will say that this units RF tuner, sent live to my tv over component gives a mcuh better sd analog channel pic than the cable straight into the tv, better than SD from my set box over component, and better than the same setup with the Panny es-15 I owned for a couple weeks some months ago. Very impressive RF tuner ---> component output.

I'll second that. I only am able to use S-Video, but for the first time, my basic cable channels look nearly as good as my satellite sytem channels.

wajo

09-23-06, 10:20 AM

wajo

09-23-06, 11:50 AM

Same here.
And the other night, I had two shows on at the same time I would liked to have recorded.
Hope you all haven't bought out the 640's by the time I can get another if I decide to do so? :)

Urlee
Someone questioned whether Pioneer was really going to stop production of their DVDRs, so I searched again and found only two refs to that...one was in afterdawn.com (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/7630.cfm) and the same in dvd-intelligence.com (http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/66_pioneer_stops.htm).

Urlee

09-23-06, 12:14 PM

I already bought my 2nd one. :p

Actually, do we really know they will stop producing DVD recorders? I thought the report was that they were going to stop research & development on DVD recorders. Does that necessarily mean there won't be a 2007 model?

I only saw this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/urlee/Quiting.jpg

Urlee :(

Urlee

09-23-06, 12:21 PM

ACPewty

09-23-06, 12:28 PM

I corrected my post #972 on High-Speed (HS) copying, but added so much other info., so I decided to repeat it here so others can check it out to make sure it's correct this time (no thunderstorms in area now, so I have no excuses).

HS Copies HDD > DVD
You can HS copy from the HDD to VR- or Video-mode DVDs, whether you have the HDD set for VR- or Video-mode, even tho' the manual "suggests" you can't if set for VR (Video Mode Off), OR...

You can use "One-Touch Copy" to copy the currently selected or already playing title from HDD > DVD in HS ( a "one-button" copy method).

HS Copies DVD > HDD
You can HS copy finalized and unfinalized VR-mode DVDs to the HDD.

Real-Time Copies, Finalized DVD > HDD
You can use "One-Touch Copy" (the "one-button" method). The copy on the HDD is playable and copyable just like any other copy from DVD > HDD, OR...

You can make a "Backup" copy. A copy is first made to the HDD (which can't be played), from which you can make one or more DVD copies. The copy on the HDD remains for future copies, or can be deleted...still can't be played, however.Good post wabjxo!

When I traded in my 633 I had to copy some stuff intended for a compilation temporarily to DVD. I selected video mode because that's what I always use and I knew the rest of the compilation would be in video mode for the best compatibility. The problem was, I had to real-time copy back from DVD when I got the 640 and there was a slight loss of pq compared to the rest of the compilation.

Question: Is there no way I could avoid a 2nd encode if I have content on DVD that I want to put back on the HDD for a video mode compilation? Seems to me if I want to switch from VR mode to video mode or vice-versa, another re-encode is necessary isn't it?

If I had used VR mode for the original recordings so I could high-speed copy to and from DVD before completing the compilation on the HDD, I would still have to do a real-time copy to DVD in order to get it back to video mode for compatibility on other players right? If so, that would then have resulted in a pq loss for the whole compilation rather than just the portion that was originally recorded on the 633.

I've never tried this, has anyone else? It seems obvious, but I'm just wondering if it's possible the 640 might not actually do a full resample/re-encode, but just reorganize the data from VR mode to video mode assuming the same recording speed is selected?

ACPewty

09-23-06, 12:42 PM

Someone questioned whether Pioneer was really going to stop production of their DVDRs, so I searched again and found only two refs to that...one was in afterdawn.com (http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/7630.cfm) and the same in dvd-intelligence.com (http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/66_pioneer_stops.htm).Seems logical since HD recorders are starting to appear, and considering what is looming regarding the switch from SD to HD especially in the US where it is legislated.

It sure looks like there won't be a 2007 model, but it doesn't say it specifically. They could put out a 2007 model without any further development, but that may be too optimistic. If you want another 640, maybe it's a good idea to buy now before prices go up in case there is no 2007 model. ITOH, it would be disappointing if no firmware update comes for the title name issue and it is only resolved in a 2007 model. :(

wajo

09-23-06, 12:44 PM

Good post wabjxo!

When I traded in my 633 I had to copy some stuff intended for a compilation temporarily to DVD. I selected video mode because that's what I always use and I knew the rest of the compilation would be in video mode for the best compatibility. The problem was, I had to real-time copy back from DVD when I got the 640 and there was a slight loss of pq compared to the rest of the compilation.

Question: Is there no way I could avoid a 2nd encode if I have content on DVD that I want to put back on the HDD for a video mode compilation? Seems to me if I want to switch from VR mode to video mode or vice-versa, another re-encode is necessary isn't it?

If I had used VR mode for the original recordings so I could high-speed copy to and from DVD before completing the compilation on the HDD, I would still have to do a real-time copy to DVD in order to get it back to video mode for compatibility on other players right? If so, that would then have resulted in a pq loss for the whole compilation rather than just the portion that was originally recorded on the 633.

I've never tried this, has anyone else? It seems obvious, but I'm just wondering if it's possible the 640 might not actually do a full resample/re-encode, but just reorganize the data from VR mode to video mode assuming the same recording speed is selected?
I did tests on VR mode DVDs and they worked perfectly for HS copy back to the HDD set for Video-Mode Off (VR mode), then HS copy from the HDD > Video-Mode DVDs. That all worked perfectly.

But I never really thought of good use for this. Your compilation woult have been the ideal use!

The key is to "ignore" the "suggestion" in the manual that, if you want to copy from HDD > DVD in high-speed, you "must" use the HDD in Video mode...NOT TRUE!

Also, for weeks, I've been recording to the HDD set for VR mode (Video-Mode Off) with no diff. in ANYTHING!

P.S. And i've got a Panasonic combo unit that I test my recorded DVDs in to make sure Finalized discs play in "other" machines...it has never failed to let me know when a DVD was not playable (such as before they are Finalized). All my VR-mode HDD > High-Speed Video-mode DVDs show no ill effects, play fine, etc. I'm still searching for the reason for the manual's suggestion that you have to use Video-mode HDD if you want to copy in HS to DVD later!?

AC...I just checked for the "re-encoding" thing you mentioned. I compared the short segment of Ryder Cup golf I recorded to the VR-mode HDD for my test to see the Mbps...it was from 4.5-5.5 Mbps in a certain section of the recording.

I then checked the same section on the Video-mode DVD I made from the recording, at HS, and it showed the "exact" same Mbps. I compared the reading at the same narrator's words.

Re-encoding is definitely NOT a cause for concern using VR-mode HDD. My search continues, but if there is an overbearing or serious reason to avoid VR-mode HDD, it looks as if it will be very difficult to find?

Sean Nelson

09-23-06, 12:46 PM

I had read earlier that they would still sell Pioneer-branded DVD recorders manufactured by someone else. It's not really clear from this article whether that's still true or not, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

rgazzara

09-23-06, 12:52 PM

If you are considering returning the 640 over these minor issues, I doubt you will find a replacement you are happy with. Consider the "glitches" of the alternatives: Unreliable TVGOS problems, missed timer recordings, inferior pq, loss of all HDD recordings due to fragmentation, (or having to regularly reformat to avoid that,) difficult or missing editing features etc etc. Give it a bit of time to prove itself and I bet you'll decide it's a keeper too.

My Panasonic DVD recorders have a reliable TVGOS, rarely missed timer recordings, excellent PQ, no loss of HDD recordings due to fragmentation nor need to reformat, and excellent editing features. So you must be referring to Toshiba or Sony DVD recorders. ;)

dvdiva

09-23-06, 12:56 PM

ITOH, it would be disappointing if no firmware update comes for the title name issue and it is only resolved in a 2007 model. :(

I wholeheartedly agree. If the autotitle could be resolved then the 640 would be very close to perfect. (I still lament the absent IR blaster that was on the 2005 models, the reason I am hanging on to my 531)

I wonder if they would accept trade-ins on previous years' models if the issue is resolved by 2007. This would be a similar approach to how they handled the EPG troubles of 2005.

wajo

09-23-06, 01:43 PM

I wholeheartedly agree. If the autotitle could be resolved then the 640 would be very close to perfect. (I still lament the lack of PAL compatibility and absent IR blaster that were on the 2005 models, the reasons I am hanging on to my 531)

I wonder if they would accept trade-ins on previous years' models if the issue is resolved by 2007. This would be a similar approach to how they handled the EPG troubles of 2005.
The "title-transfer" problem is minor compared to the TVGOS not working, so we're probably stuck with our Pio-neerperfect 640s!?

wajo

09-23-06, 01:51 PM

The 640 does have that feature. Check out Play Mode...Time Search. It also has title search and chapter search.
I'm glad you brought this up...I've read several posts that suggested there was no "Search" feature on the 53x/63x series or the new 640.

It really would have been better if they had named the button "Search" rather than "Play Mode." However, that button also has Repeat Play and Program Play modes, so they had to make a choice...or design the machine with separate buttons, which was probably not "desirable."

wajo

09-23-06, 03:37 PM

ACPewty

09-23-06, 04:46 PM

The key is to "ignore" the "suggestion" in the manual that, if you want to copy from HDD > DVD in high-speed, you "must" use the HDD in Video mode...NOT TRUE!
Also, for weeks, I've been recording to the HDD set for VR mode (Video-Mode Off) with no diff. in ANYTHING!Thanks...I've decided the HDD is mostly mode independant. I believe the VR mode/Video mode only applies to DVDs and editing in preparation for copying to DVD. Have you noticed when listing/playing HDD programs it doesn't say anywhere whether it is a VR or Video mode recording?

I did some testing:

1) With HDD Recording format set to off (VR Mode) I did a short recording and was able to copy it at high speed to an unfinalized video mode DVD that already had some content on it. Of course, the copy was in video mode.

2) As is well estabished, copying from a video mode DVD to the HDD must be done in real-time...didn't bother testing again.

3) With HDD Recording Mode set to On (Video Mode) and using a DVD-R initialized as VR mode, I was able to Highspeed copy HDD recordings to the VR mode DVD whether they were recorded with HDD Recording Mode on or off. I was also able to high-speed copy anything from the VR-mode DVD to the HDD, therefore with no pq loss. Again, HDD Recording Mode was set to On (Video Mode) during all this VR mode copying.

So, the answer is: if you plan to copy content back to the HDD for editing or adding to a compilation, just be sure to use a VR mode DVD in order to be able to high-speed copy back to the HDD without loss of pq.

This will prove helpful especially for those of us using more than one 640 because sometimes you can't record everything intended for a compilation on the same recorder, and need to transfer programs using a DVD.
P.S. And i've got a Panasonic combo unit that I test my recorded DVDs in to make sure Finalized discs play in "other" machines...it has never failed to let me know when a DVD was not playable (such as before they are Finalized). All my VR-mode HDD > High-Speed Video-mode DVDs show no ill effects, play fine, etc. I'm still searching for the reason for the manual's suggestion that you have to use Video-mode HDD if you want to copy in HS to DVD later!?Apparently not all players can handle VR mode, so for best compatibility I use Video Mode. Here's what the manual says:

About DVD recording
This recorder can record to DVD-R, DVDRW,
DVD+R, DVD+RW, DVD-RAM, DVD-R DL and DVD+R DL media.
DVD-R and DVD-RW discs can be initialized for Video mode
or VR mode recording. Each has its advantages, and it depends
on what you want to do with the recording which mode you choose.
If you want to edit your recordings in any significant way, VR mode
offers greater possibilities for cutting, copying, and changing the way
the video is presented. Video mode is less flexible when it comes to
editing, but it has the advantage that it is compatible with standard
DVD players (many of which won’t play VR mode discs).
Once a disc is initialized for a particular mode, all recording on that disc
will be in that mode. DVD+RW discs can be initialized for +VR mode
recording. DVD-RAM discs can be initialized for VR mode recording.
DVD+R discs do not require initializing. Re-encoding is definitely NOT a cause for concern using VR-mode HDD. My search continues, but if there is an overbearing or serious reason to avoid VR-mode HDD, it looks as if it will be very difficult to find?I think it only affects editing. Video mode forced you to edit at key frames. VR mode gives you frame accurate editing but may cause pauses at edit points during playback while the player catches up to the next key frame (every 15 frames). The only other issue is if you want Bilingual broadcast recording of both audio channels, use VR mode according to the manual. I'm leaving HDD Recording Mode set to On (Video Mode) all the time, and just copying to a VR mode DVD if I plan to transfer back to HDD later. I'm very happy that I will still be able to combine content from a VR mode DVD with HDD content and then high-speed copy the finished compilation to a Video mode DVD-R for best compatibility in most players and no pq loss. :) I wish I had known that a month ago, but live & learn right?

ZZen

09-23-06, 04:55 PM

Been testing it out this morning. Made a few HS disc backups that seems to work very well.

Regarding the DVD backup function I do have a question. After you HS transfer the data to HDD you can choose to leave the data on the HDD to copy to disc later. Manual: "if you decide to leave the backup data on the HDD, you can make backup copies to recordable DVD discs anytime from the Disc backup menu". Ok so yes that work I can cancel out before making the copy and go back later to the "resume writing data". Now what I've noticed that is not mentioned in the manual is that it seems it will only retain one ( the most recent) file of backup data at a time. For example I did a backup but I left the data on the HDD (did not erase it). I thought I might make another copy later. Then I loaded another disc to backup and transfered the data to HDD. Made a copy then again chose to leave the data on the HDD (did not erase). Now when I go back into the Disc backup menu under either "resume writing" or "erase backup data", only the more recent data is there. The former one is gone. Or at least I can't seem to find it/access it. Any thoughts? Is that normal?