ZZen,

My older Pioneer 520 behaves the same way for "backup" copying. Only one working copy is retained on the hard drive.

I don't see any reason to use Disc Backup for Finalized DVDs since it seems to be only a "more-automated" method of making a copy of a DVD on the HDD and creating more DVDs???

I'd rather use the "one-button" method: "One-Touch Copy."

Select or play the Finalized DVD, then press One Touch Copy button (under sliding door). That makes a "permanent" copy on the HDD, in real-time, from which you can make as many more copies as you want, at any time.

To copy, load a blank DVD, select the title on the HDD (any title), then press the One-Touch Copy button to make one or more high-speed copies whenever you want w/o the "restrictions" of Disc Backup.

In either direction, if you start playing, One-Touch Copy copies the entire title/DVD, from the beginning, no matter where you are in the Play mode.

It also transfers the "Finalize" data so there are no additional steps for that.

The "title-transfer" problem is minor compared to the TVGOS not working, so we're probably stuck with our Pio-neerperfect 640s!?The problem is only considered minor if Pioneer doesn't hear about it too much. Like any other company if there are enough calls about it to customer service, they will have to address it. I am certainly willing to make some calls, but I can only squeak so loud by myself. If everyone puts in an effort to call, maybe we'll get greased. I'm starting a new thread about this issue in hopes we'll get something rolling:
Wanna fix the Pioneer DVR-640H-S Timer Event Title Name Issue? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8498393#post8498393)

No big deal about the holding of only one set of backup data. Just wasn't sure if it was normal.

The thing about one touch copy is that is is real time so takes 3 hrs for some of the sport events I'm backing up plus the added (slight) loss of quality from re-encoding. I guess they both have their pros/cons.

It also holds only one copy list, I too wish it could hold more. But, just be sure you hold on to one copy of the disc, and you can back it up again, at any time.

Having burnt about 200 discs so far, and read the manual through a few times, I feel like a dummy asking this, but the 640 is my first DVDR, and I only record in Video Mode, for maximum compatibility on other players.

If I record a program, of say about 130 minutes, that is more than the SP capacity of a single layer disc, to the HDD, using some function, like auto, so that the bit rate will allow HS copy to fit a SL disc, and record to disc in Video Mode, will the finalized disc still be as compatible with other DVD players, even with the non-standard bit rate? It seems that I record a number of movies with a time just past what a single layer disc can hold in SP, and it would be nice to make them fit, instead of paying more for +R DL discs, which then won't fast-forward at a reasonable rate. I assume that the difference in PQ would be negligible, for small excesses. I would still use DL discs for titles substantially longer than two hours.

Yes a "nonstandard bitrate" will play in other players. It's still a legal bitrate at 130 minutes/disc, just not one of the predefined rates: XP, SP, LP, etc. So no problem.

Opinions may differ, but I think recording to the HDD in AUTO mode (which is only available for Timer Recordings, as far as I know) is a good way to go for anything up to 240 minutes...the full range for the 720x480 res...if fitting on a SL DVD later at max. resolution is important.

Interesting findings and tidbits on the HS dubbing and VR/Video-mode settings on the HDD and DVDs! As a fan of -RW(VR) I like this :-)

Thanks, guys. I'll try auto for timer recordings of movies that are under, say 150 minutes, max. For anything longer, I think I will stick to DL discs, as I do value PQ, with a 56" DLP set. It's just that I find a substantial number of movies I want to save are just a very few minutes over what a SL disc will hold in SP. But, I was afraid to record in anything but SP, for fear that it wouldn't play on my, or others', other DVD players. Given that I like to set 5-10 minute brackets on my HDD recordings, I should probably learn to set the bit-rates manually, based on the actual length of the film, plus a couple of minutes slack. My supply of DL discs will certainly last longer!

Given that I like to set 5-10 minute brackets on my HDD recordings, I should probably learn to set the bit-rates manually, based on the actual length of the film, plus a couple of minutes slack. My supply of DL discs will certainly last longer!

If you use the 1st Timer Recording option (i.e. not VCR+, Easy Timer,or Auto Start Timer), then setting a bit-rate is a snap.

I refer you to the manual, p42, 2nd column starting at Setting a manual timer recording.

If you skip over to p43 at the bottom left #4 They talk about the Set Detailed option. This is where you can adjust the Recording Mode.

To summarize:
1) Choose the Set Detailed option before Storing your newly inputted Timer Recording
2) Select Recording Mode
3) Scroll thru the options & stop at the MN setting, then press ENTER, then use the arrow keys to adjust the MN speed, then hit Enter to select it(use the chart on p125 to guide you for a single-layer disc)
4)Go back to the Enter Details, hit enter, and then store your program

The manuals for these machines are suboptimally laid out to find specific info. I have spent far too much time b/w the 531 & the 640 flipping through the pages.

If you use the 1st Timer Recording option (i.e. not VCR+, Easy Timer,or Auto Start Timer), then setting a bit-rate is a snap.It's even faster to use the Easy Timer to set up your timer event, then use the Timer Recording...Detailed Settings to adjust the manual bitrate.

BTW, in case no one noticed this (mentioned in them manual but not on-screen) when looking in vain for a way to adjust the MN rate on the Easy Timer screen, I noticed that the << and >> buttons can be used to advance the time 1 hour at a time instead of 15 minutes at a time, although if you hold down the < or > buttons it moves pretty fast.

In several of my posts, I described my exp. w/VR-mode HDD and DVDs, but so far only found a good use for it in AC's "compilation" project(s).

I think I've found another good use: recording "Copy-Once" material, which I've read some people receive via cable, satellite or pay-per-view? You can't copy this stuff to a Video-mode HDD or DVD, but you can to VR-mode.

If you record to a VR-mode HDD, I know that "unprotected" materialo can be copied to a normal Video-mode DVD...but I don't know if the "Copy-Once" protection will prevent a subsequent Copy-to-DVD?

If you try to record something to regular Video-mode HDD or DVDs, and you think it might have "copy-once" protection, try changing the HDD to Video-mode Off or initialize a DVD for VR-mode...it may allow you to copy that material.

I've asked before, but can't find the answer:
When using Backup, does it make an exact duplicate of the disk(chapter marks, thumbnails...)? And is there any quality loss?

And, is there a difference in quality between LP and SP? I only have a small TV so I can't tell. One day i'll have a bigger TV(also, played on my PC, even SP looks blurry. Is that normal?)
I want to use less HDD space without sacrificing pq. How low can I go?

I've asked before, but can't find the answer:
When using Backup, does it make an exact duplicate of the disk(chapter marks, thumbnails...)? And is there any quality loss?The disc backup feature uses a high-speed copy to and from the HDD, so there is no re-encoding and no pq loss. It takes about 12-13 minutes to copy a full DVD to the HDD, and about 8-9 minutes to make a finalized DVD copy. It is an exact copy of the original...same menu & chapter marks.

(also, played on my PC, even SP looks blurry. Is that normal?)

When I tried mine on my computer just to test, it didn't show up as sharp as on the TV but I think that is because of being close to it.
I didn't think to try it, but stand back and see if there is a difference?

Urlee

And, is there a difference in quality between LP and SP? I only have a small TV so I can't tell. One day i'll have a bigger TV(also, played on my PC, even SP looks blurry. Is that normal?)There is a difference between SP & LP which is more noticable on big TVs, but it isn't a big difference.

Just like playing a recording (or live program) on a big-screen TV, if you are too close everything looks fuzzy because the programs are only broadcast as SD (480i) which means you only have 480 lines of resolution.

Most people have their computer's video resolution set at at least 800x600, 1024x768 or higher. The closest resolution to match the number of lines of resolution would be 640x480 so if you play the recording back in a small 640x480 window it will look sharp as intended. If you were to change your computer's resolution (not recommended) to 640x480 and play it back sitting farther back than usual from the monitor, it would look closer to normal.

I want to use less HDD space without sacrificing pq. How low can I go?With a small TV you can go to pretty slow bitrates, but you may regret it if you switch to a bigger TV. My 32" (relatively small) HD TV makes any flaws in the recording pretty obvious, so I prefer to use the highest bitrate I can that will still fit on a DVD if I plan to make a copy.

Keep in mind the HDD is intended as a temporary storage area. I use mine like a Tivo and erase after watching, copying to DVD first if desired. I wouldn't get in the habit of saving programs on the HDD because you will regret it if the unit fails. (I had one die in a lightning storm already.) I typically try to record in SP or better unless that won't fit on a planned DVD copy.

I have a 37" LCD HDTV and a HD front projector with a 100" screen. There is a noticeable difference between LP and SP. Especially with animated or fast moving video. Size does matter, as does speed. If you anticipate a larger TV in the near future, I wouldn't recommend recording in LP as a default.

On the 640, the approx. record quality of the three "best" modes is XP=9, SP=6, LP-3 Mbps. All three have the same resolution, 720x480.

I can't see much, if any, diff. between SP and LP on "normal" scenes, only in fast movement, on my 51" proj. TV connected via Composite cables.

The bit-rate difference will be "noticeable" in moving objects or camera pans, and depends also on the quality and size of TV and connections. If you record lots of sports, you'll like XP and SP best...slow moving love stories are better at LP to get them over with faster! :)

Thanks, dvdiva. I wish I had read that before I went home to try and set the bit-rate for a timer recording. I did find in the manual where it said I had to go to Initial Setup to enable manual recording, and I did that. But I couldn't locate that info on page 42. I had to play with it for a while, before I realized that if I hit enter, while on the MN 21 setting in "Set Detailed," I could adjust to MN19, which is what I need, most of the time. So, I am all set to timer record North By Northwest, a 136 min. film, at MN19, and it should fit a SL disc. I will check that for PQ, but doubt that I will notice a difference between the SL version, and the one I already did on a DL disc. At this rate, in a year or two, I'll probably be proficient with the 640. ;) I still have to try making photo CD copies, among other things.

If you use the 1st Timer Recording option (i.e. not VCR+, Easy Timer,or Auto Start Timer), then setting a bit-rate is a snap.

I refer you to the manual, p42, 2nd column starting at Setting a manual timer recording.

If you skip over to p43 at the bottom left #4 They talk about the Set Detailed option. This is where you can adjust the Recording Mode.

To summarize:
1) Choose the Set Detailed option before Storing your newly inputted Timer Recording
2) Select Recording Mode
3) Scroll thru the options & stop at the MN setting, then press ENTER, then use the arrow keys to adjust the MN speed, then hit Enter to select it(use the chart on p125 to guide you for a single-layer disc)
4)Go back to the Enter Details, hit enter, and then store your program

The manuals for these machines are suboptimally laid out to find specific info. I have spent far too much time b/w the 531 & the 640 flipping through the pages.

After reading HoustonGuys warning (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727272) about freezup problems with his 531, I decided to try optimizing my busier 640 before a busy fall season and while it just had 2 things on the HDD...about 3.5 hours worth of data. I just wanted to report it went without a hitch and much faster than it initially reported. It said it would take 51 minutes and in fact it only took about 10-12 minutes. (I thought 51 minutes seemed a bit much considering there was only 2 files on the drive.)

If you do any significant amount of title entry I highly recommend using the numeric keypad. You'll be amazed how quickly you get used to it, and it's much, much faster than the arrow keys.

Unless you're like already on the T and need to enter an S, which still takes 4 keypresses on the numeric keypad but only 2 motion keys (arrow left and Enter). I use the numeric keys in general but occasionally the arrow keys are faster.

Has anyone in here noticed how annoying it is when you are changing between CAPITOL and lowercase letters, how it always starts over with the "A"?

Let's say for an example you wanted to enter the word "Stop" where the "S" is CAPS and the "top" is lowercase, well the "t" comes right after the "S" in the lineup on screen, but when you enter the Capitol "S", then turn the Caps off to enter the "t", you have to start all over at the "A" instead of just going one curser to the right and selecting the "t".

This of course is if you use the arrows on the remote instead of the 0-9 keys which are each assigned letters as well.

I know there is no fix for this, but I just wanted to state how annoying it is that it does that.

It's true even with the numeric keys--there is a numeric key to switch to caps (can't remember what it is, I use the key all the time but my use of the remote is pretty much by feel and instinct now) and I have noticed it also moves focus to the A. This can be very annoying in some cases even when using numeric keys because sometimes it's fewer key presses to arrow over one character than to the use the numeric keys. I may be right next to the letter I want, and would be able to press two keys (arrow left or right and Enter) to get to the character, but after I hit the key to shift caps, focus jumps to the A and now it could be up to 3 or even 4 numeric key presses instead to enter the character because the character is no longer one arrow key press away.

I don't see any reason to use Disc Backup for Finalized DVDs since it seems to be only a "more-automated" method of making a copy of a DVD on the HDD and creating more DVDs???

I'd rather use the "one-button" method: "One-Touch Copy."

Select or play the Finalized DVD, then press One Touch Copy button (under sliding door). That makes a "permanent" copy on the HDD, in real-time, from which you can make as many more copies as you want, at any time.

To copy, load a blank DVD, select the title on the HDD (any title), then press the One-Touch Copy button to make one or more high-speed copies whenever you want w/o the "restrictions" of Disc Backup.

In either direction, if you start playing, One-Touch Copy copies the entire title/DVD, from the beginning, no matter where you are in the Play mode.

It also transfers the "Finalize" data so there are no additional steps for that.

I use one-touch copy to move titles from finalized DVDs to the HDD if I want to edit them or combine them with other titles to make a new DVD.

But I still use backup to make additional disc copies of finalized DVDs because the 12-13 minutes each way is still usually faster than the real-time one-touch copy, particularly if I had to use real-time copy to make the first DVD because I had to adjust the recording rate. I know on the 520 the one-touch copy is always real time, at least for video-mode DVDs.

But I read you are using VR-mode DVDs. I have been using video-mode exclusively but may take a look at VR mode based on your findings. Is frame-accurate available in the copy list for VR-mode DVDs? On the 520 it is available in the copy list for both video-mode and VR-mode, but if I recall correctly frame-accurate is not available in the copy list for video-mode on the 640.

That might be enough to get me to switch to VR-mode, especially if player compatibility is not the big issue it was once made out to be. Are you finding a fairly good level of compatibility? (These days, if the DVD player is so old it won't play VR-mode discs, likely it won't play video-mode ones either.)

I already bought my 2nd one. :p

Actually, do we really know they will stop producing DVD recorders? I thought the report was that they were going to stop research & development on DVD recorders. Does that necessarily mean there won't be a 2007 model?

At any rate, as much as I like my 640s I consider them to be temporary until HD recorders are reliable and reasonably priced. I expect we should see them available with similar or even better features before our 640's bite the dust.

Finally unpacked my second 640 and third 520 which have been sitting in the boxes for months. So now I have three 520s and two 640s in operation! :D

I agree, we are just biding time until HDD recorders become mainstream. I am not as into picture quality as some folks, so I doubt I will make a huge effort to update my collection (especially since I don't have an HD TV yet), but how will everyone feel about the existing collection of SD-DVDs they have made using their Pioneer recorders? Will they want to record everything over again they already have in SD that is also offered in HD?

Optimized copies do indeed take into account the current size of the copy list, but the problem is an optimized mode copy is a real-time copy that encodes a 2nd time. Although the 640 does a good job, you are losing pq compared to using the correct bitrate in the first place and then doing a high-speed copy which copies bit-for-bit with no re-encoding and therefore no loss of pq.

I just use the chart on page 125 of the manual to estimate the best MN speed/bitrate I can get assuming roughly 10 to 20 minutes of commercials per hour, depending on the network etc . Example: If a movie is 3 hours including commercials, then I will probably end up with at most 2.5 hours (150 minutes) after editing out the commercials, so according to the chart in video mode I should use MN18. In my experience if I record at MN18 and then high-speed copy to DVD I will get noticably better pq than if I do an optimized copy, and it is much faster too...roughly 8 minutes on 16x -R media.

Usually (depending on the content), you may have enough space left over due to extra compression of dark or still sequences etc that you could have used the next higher MN rate, and as you get more experienced in recording certain shows you may be able to push the envelope more by selecting a higher bitrate, but to me it's a drag when you end up with say 4.5Gb of data and only 4.4Gb of space on the DVD which forces you to either cut out some content (credits) or do an optimized copy.

If you are using a small screen tv you may not notice as much, but try the manual bitrates. That 2nd encoding required for optimized mode costs you pq and considerable time for the copy to DVD.

I'm not able to discern picture quality as well as some (a friend of mine switches between HD and SD broadcasts on his HDTV and I can't see any difference, even though I know there is) and I don't have a large screen TV, so I hadn't noticed a difference in picture quality. I read about the manual rates and tried it once, but I often record so many things back to back that are going to be split out into separate DVDs later, that it makes the calculations more difficult, so I just relied on Optimized. Also, I don't record programs which would end up being longer than 2 hours after editing very often, so the fact that I had to do real-time copies wasn't a big concern.

But I wasn't aware of the loss of pq--now that I know about that, I may try to plan ahead of time to use manual recording more. I remember when I tried manual recording once before, I made the calculation and then bumped the rate one lower to be on the safe side--I had read that somewhere. The pq may become more of an issue if I ever get a large-screen TV and get more accustomed to viewing TV in that mode, so I should go ahead and do what I can to get the best pq in my recordings now.

Thanks!

But I read you are using VR-mode DVDs. I have been using video-mode exclusively but may take a look at VR mode based on your findings. Is frame-accurate available in the copy list for VR-mode DVDs? On the 520 it is available in the copy list for both video-mode and VR-mode, but if I recall correctly frame-accurate is not available in the copy list for video-mode on the 640.

That might be enough to get me to switch to VR-mode, especially if player compatibility is not the big issue it was once made out to be. Are you finding a fairly good level of compatibility? (These days, if the DVD player is so old it won't play VR-mode discs, likely it won't play video-mode ones either.)
I tested the HDD in VR mode to see how that made it NOT be able to record to Video-mode DVDs, and found that was not true.

I don't make any VR DVDs 'cause they just won't play in "most or all" other recorders. ACPewty's "compilation" projects are the only good use for VR-mode DVDs (so you can copy back to HDD at HS). Since "Copy-Once" material can only be recorded or copied in VR mode, that is also another reason to use the HDD in VR mode, or initialize a DVD to record directly to the DVD.

However, I still can't find any overriding reason to set the HDD for VR mode "permanently"...I've just found no "ill effects" from doing so.

My tests, and ACPewty's confirmation, show that you can just select "Frame Accurate Editing" which apparently places the HDD in "temporary" VR mode (?). Then, you CAN copy to Video-mode DVDs in high speed as normal. This way, your HDD stays in Video-mode for everything else.

My tests, and ACPewty's confirmation, show that you can just select "Frame Accurate Editing" which apparently places the HDD in "temporary" VR mode (?). Then, you CAN copy to Video-mode DVDs in high speed as normal. This way, your HDD stays in Video-mode for everything else.

I originally had my 520s set in video-compatible mode. The copy list screen had an image (just used as a visual reminder of what screen you're on) with the hard disk and a DVD and big red arrow in between. Now I have them both set to frame-accurate. The image in the copy list screen is different now since I set them to frame-accurate: it still has the hard disk, DVD, and big red arrow, but it also has some pieces of filmstrip in the image to indicate it is in frame-accurate mode. In the copy list I can do frame-accurate edits before copying to DVD. The 520 manual warns that not all copies are possible in frame-accurate mode but I never had one fail.

I had read your previous postings about your tests in VR-mode for the 640 but I don't think I understood that VR-mode was equivalent to frame-accurate.

If VR-mode = frame-accurate, then I have been operating with my 520s in VR-mode for a year now with no copying problems.

Does this mean there is something I can set on the 640 that will give me the ability to do frame-accurate editing in copy lists before burning to vode-mode DVDs? That has been my biggest problem with the 640 so far, that I couldn't seem to do frame-accurate editing in the copy list. If the 640 can do that, I may ditch my 520s...

After reading HoustonGuys warning (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727272) about freezup problems with his 531, I decided to try optimizing my busier 640 before a busy fall season and while it just had 2 things on the HDD...about 3.5 hours worth of data. I just wanted to report it went without a hitch and much faster than it initially reported. It said it would take 51 minutes and in fact it only took about 10-12 minutes. (I thought 51 minutes seemed a bit much considering there was only 2 files on the drive.)

AC, maybe you know the answer to this. This is an issue with my 520 but the concept is general, I think. I had a problem with one of my 520s that may be similar to what HoustonGuys had. One day I powered up the 520 and it said "The hard drive is incorrect" (or something similar). I couldn't move any recordings to DVD--the copy menu was disabled. This wasn't a case of copy-protection; titles previously recorded that were available for copying could no longer be copied. The copy menu item itself was grayed out. The only option was to reformat the HDD. I lost all the recordings. (Well, I could still play the recordings that were on the HDD, so I might have been able to hook the outputs of the unit to the inputs of another unit and transfer them that way, but it didn't seem worth the trouble at the time.)

I assumed the hard drive problem occurred because the disk was badly fragmented--of all my units, this is the one that was always hitting the title number limit and had the most editing done on the titles on the HDD. After reformatting, the unit worked fine for a month and then I got the HDD error again. Now I'm not so sure it's a fragmentation issue--I am thinking the drive is just going bad. But reading your post makes me wonder--I assume when I reformat the hard drive, it's wiping it clean and I don't specifically need to run optimize, right? I would assume a reformat would make an optimize moot (or implicit, etc.).

Does this mean there is something I can set on the 640 that will give me the ability to do frame-accurate editing in copy lists before burning to vode-mode DVDs? That has been my biggest problem with the 640 so far, that I couldn't seem to do frame-accurate editing in the copy list. If the 640 can do that, I may ditch my 520s...Yes, I believe for the most part VR-Mode = Frame accurate editing. To use frame accurate editing in the copy list, your target DVD should be in VR-Mode. As soon as you select VR Mode, you get frame accurate editing in the copy list.

I assume when I reformat the hard drive, it's wiping it clean and I don't specifically need to run optimize, right? I would assume a reformat would make an optimize moot (or implicit, etc.).I think your 520 is jealous now that you have the 640s. ;)

I would a agree that a reformat should make optimization unnecessary since the drive should be wiped clean and the file system reset. (Nothing to optimize.) I haven't experienced this, but unless you did a huge amount of editing in a month, I would wonder if the HDD has a problem. How much editing did you do?

Usually on computers reformatting will mark bad spots on the platter as "do not use" so you don't run into problems, but I don't know if the "disk initialization" on the 640 does indeed actually reformat or just rebuild the file system.

According to the 2005 and 2006 models' manual, the Initialize HDD option only shows up in your menu if the file system has become corrupted, so if it's there, it's time.

If you didn't really do that much editing in that month, I would try to keep the drive fairly "optimized" , (maybe ensure it isn't some sort of surge problem by protecting the unit with a good APC UPS,) and maybe try to do most of your editing in the copy list which will significantly reduce the amount of fragmentation. If you still have the problem, maybe the 520's drive is starting to fail? :(

Did you see HoustonGuy's thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727272) about a similar problem on his 531?

One other thing: I know if the drive is nearly full some features like copying are disabled until there is enough free workspace...could that be it?

I think I found a good reason NOT to use frame-accurate editing...edit points won't be preserved if you make a Video-mode DVD in high speed!

Since that is what most of us want to do...edit, HS copy to DVD...!!!

Here is the section of the manual, which I just "discovered" :eek:

Editing accuracy
Some editing commands ask you whether you want to keep Video mode compatibility or frame accuracy (Video Mode Compatible Editing or Frame Accurate Editing).

Frame accurate editing is very precise. The edit point is accurate to the exact frame you choose. However, this accuracy is not preserved in any copy you make if you use the high-speed copy function to make a Video mode DVD. [:eek: so why do it!?]

Video mode compatible editing is less precise. The edit point you choose will only be accurate to within 0.5 to 1 second. On the other hand, these edit points will be preserved if you use high-speed copy to make a Video mode DVD or DVD+R/+RW.

Frame accurate editing is very precise. The edit point is accurate to the exact frame you choose. However, this accuracy is not preserved in any copy you make if you use the high-speed copy function to make a Video mode DVD. [:eek: so why do it!?]Because the frame accurate edit points WILL be preserved if you copy to a VR mode DVD, at the expense of pauses during playback as the player catches up to the next (15th) key frame. You only lose frame accuracy when you high-speed copy to a Video Mode DVD which doesn't do frame accuracy.

IMHO since you lose compatibility on some players, the only real advantage of using VR mode is if you plan to high-speed copy back to the HDD from DVD. I use video mode for everything else...better playback with less pauses, and plays on more players.

Sorry, AC, the whole point of my post was in the first sentence and meant as a caution to the vast majority of users:

"I think I found a good reason NOT to use frame-accurate editing...edit points won't be preserved if you make a Video-mode DVD in high speed!

Since that is what most of us want to do...edit, HS copy to DVD...!!!"

Your "compilation" projects are obviously the ONLY reason to use VR-mode DVDs I've found so far...but still looking!

So as not to confuse people: beware of Frame-Accurate Editing if you later want to copy to a VIDEO-MODE DVD in high speed...your carefully set edit points WILL NOT BE preserved!

I think your 520 is jealous now that you have the 640s. ;)

I would a agree that a reformat should make optimization unnecessary since the drive should be wiped clean and the file system reset. (Nothing to optimize.) I haven't experienced this, but unless you did a huge amount of editing in a month, I would wonder if the HDD has a problem. How much editing did you do?

Usually on computers reformatting will mark bad spots on the platter as "do not use" so you don't run into problems, but I don't know if the "disk initialization" on the 640 does indeed actually reformat or just rebuild the file system.

According to the 2005 and 2006 models' manual, the Initialize HDD option only shows up in your menu if the file system has become corrupted, so if it's there, it's time.

If you didn't really do that much editing in that month, I would try to keep the drive fairly "optimized" , (maybe ensure it isn't some sort of surge problem by protecting the unit with a good APC UPS,) and maybe try to do most of your editing in the copy list which will significantly reduce the amount of fragmentation. If you still have the problem, maybe the 520's drive is starting to fail? :(

Did you see HoustonGuy's thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727272) about a similar problem on his 531?

One other thing: I know if the drive is nearly full some features like copying are disabled until there is enough free workspace...could that be it?

I don't think I did enough editing in the past month to account for a brand-new fragmentation problem. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a continuing fragmentation problem from before, which seems unlikely because, as you say, a reformat should clear everything.

I did see HoustonGuy's post which you had referenced here which is what prompted me to ask the question.

I've had the drive full numerous times and copy was always available.

The Initialize menu item was enabled, so I expect the file system was corrupted. As you say, it's likely the hard drive beginning to go. I've overtaxed it... :(

I have been keeping my edits mostly in the copy list since the second failure, and trying to keep things moved off the DVD.

I agree, the 520 is jealous. :) I hope the other 520s don't get the same idea.

Sorry, AC, the whole point of my post was in the first sentence and meant as a caution to the vast majority of users:

"I think I found a good reason NOT to use frame-accurate editing...edit points won't be preserved if you make a Video-mode DVD in high speed!

Since that is what most of us want to do...edit, HS copy to DVD...!!!"

Your "compilation" projects are obviously the ONLY reason to use VR-mode DVDs I've found so far...but still looking!

So as not to confuse people: beware of Frame-Accurate Editing if you later want to copy to a VIDEO-MODE DVD in high speed...your carefully set edit points WILL NOT BE preserved!Sorry, if I misunderstood your post. I thought you didn't realize that frame accuracy would be preserved when copying to VR-mode DVDs. I guess I didn't read carefully enough. :o

Because the frame accurate edit points WILL be preserved if you copy to a VR mode DVD, at the expense of pauses during playback as the player catches up to the next (15th) key frame. You only lose frame accuracy when you high-speed copy to a Video Mode DVD which doesn't do frame accuracy.

IMHO since you lose compatibility on some players, the only real advantage of using VR mode is if you plan to high-speed copy back to the HDD from DVD. I use video mode for everything else...better playback with less pauses, and plays on more players.

I have been making HS copies on the 520 with frame-accurate edits to video-mode DVDs for a year now, and as far as I can tell my edit points are preserved as long as I play the video DVDs back on the Pioneer unit. But I will double-check this.

The 520 manual did say edit points would not be preserved...but I discovered by accident when I forgot to turn off frame-accurate in a new 520 I got, that the edit points seemed to have been preserved on the video-compatible mode DVDs I had created when I played them back in the Pioneer unit.

But even on the 640 which I have kept in video-compatible mode, the first dialog I usually get when I try to add a title to the copy list is "Some edit points may shift slightly after copying." I notice I don't always get that dialog--even when picking the first title to add to a brand-new list, sometimes I get the dialog and sometimes I don't. Anyone know what the difference is?

When I play video-compatible DVDs made using frame-accurate copies on my 520 on other DVD players, the players do seem to "skip" to the .15 point. But this would have been the case if I had used video-compatible mode anyway. Well, really this means I may lose some frames when playing back on other DVD players that I wouldn't have missed if I had edited using video-compatible mode. I guess I am relying on always having a Pioneer unit around...

Since most folks appear to be using video-compatible mode...does anyone else have problems with recording from some stations that don't broadcast any black frames between movies or between shows and commercials? I know Hallmark Channel has maybe one or two black frames at most between movies. SCIFI Channel has one at best. These usually aren't enough to get a clean break at the .15 point in video-compatible mode unless you get lucky. Boomerang is another one--I make DVDs of lots of short cartoons in which the Boomerang station identification commercial runs slam-bang into the cartoon, with maybe 2-3 black frames in between. I could name quite a few more stations like this...

TCM and the premium channels are pretty good at having lots of black frames in between. But even some movie channels are problematic--MoreMAX sometimes doesn't have a big enough gap between the rating and the start of the movie.

Are most folks who use video-compatible mode not concerned about getting a little bit of "what came before" in their recordings, or are most folks not recording anything from channels that have that problem? Just curious whether I should not be so concerned about getting a "clean break"...but if I do that, I might as well let in commercials altogether...

I have been making HS copies on the 520 with frame-accurate edits to video-mode DVDs for a year now, and as far as I can tell my edit points are preserved as long as I play the video DVDs back on the Pioneer unit. But I will double-check this.

When I play them on other DVD players, the players do seem to "skip" to the .15 point. But this would have been the case if I had used video-compatible mode anyway. Well, really this means I may lose some frames when playing back on other DVD players that I wouldn't have missed if I had edited using video-compatible mode. I guess I am relying on always having a Pioneer unit around...

Since most folks appear to be using video-compatible mode...does anyone else have problems with recording from some stations that don't broadcast any black frames between movies or between shows and commercials? I know Hallmark Channel has maybe one or two black frames at most between movies. SCIFI Channel has one at best. These usually aren't enough to get a clean break at the .15 point in video-compatible mode unless you get lucky. Boomerang is another one--I make DVDs of lots of short cartoons in which the Boomerang station identification commercial runs slam-bang into the cartoon, with maybe 2-3 black frames in between. I could name quite a few more stations like this...

TCM and the premium channels are pretty good at having lots of black frames in between. But even some movie channels are problematic--MoreMAX sometimes doesn't have a big enough gap between the rating and the start of the movie.

Are most folks who use video-compatible mode not concerned about getting a little bit of "what came before" in their recordings, or are most folks not recording anything from channels that have that problem? Just curious whether I should not be so concerned about getting a "clean break"...but if I do that, I might as well let in commercials altogether...
I've read news/review articles that say producers and stations have been trying to "shake things up" to make it more difficult to record shows and remove commercials, or even know when they will appear and how long they'll last so you can no longer even count on a certain amount of time to pee.

As more and more of this "takes hold," there "might" not be any black fades except when needed for creative purposes.

I've read news/review articles that say producers and stations have been trying to "shake things up" to make it more difficult to record shows and remove commercials, or even know when they will appear and how long they'll last so you can no longer even count on a certain amount of time to pee.

As more and more of this "takes hold," there "might" not be any black fades except when needed for creative purposes.

Thanks wabjxo...sigh...

I added another question to my post after you had started your reply (#1 below), and I have another question (#2 below):

(1) But even on the 640 which I have kept in video-compatible mode, the first dialog I usually get when I try to add a title to the copy list is "Some edit points may shift slightly after copying." I notice I don't always get that dialog--even when picking the first title to add to a brand-new list, sometimes I get the dialog and sometimes I don't. Anyone know what the difference is?

(2) I suppose I could get finer-grain control with editing software on a PC (not that I have time for the long transfer times needed to move recordings to the PC). A related question: is this 15th frame rule something specific to Pioneer, or to the DVD video-compatible mode standard in general? Hmm...not that it sounds like we will get any major enhancements by Pioneer in the future...but I could see an editing feature on a DVD recorder that would let you "pad" the beginning and end of the recording with 15 blank frames, or however many would be needed to satisfy the 15th frame rule...

So, the answer is: if you plan to copy content back to the HDD for editing or adding to a compilation, just be sure to use a VR mode DVD in order to be able to high-speed copy back to the HDD without loss of pq.


By the way, this is very good to hear. I often leave a recording on the HDD waiting for a chance to record something in the future that needs to go before it on the DVD. For example, I miss recording the pilot of a TV series, but record episode 2. I need to wait for episode 1 to come around again, and I don't want to copy episode 2 to a video-mode DVD that would have pq loss when I copied it back to the HDD, so I leave episode 2 sitting on the HDD, often taking up valuable space.

Now I know if HDD space gets tight, I can copy episode 2 to a VR-mode DVD and bring it back to the HDD later when I have episode 1, using HS copy (yay!) with no pq loss. Thanks for doing all this investigation, AC and wabjxo!

(1) But even on the 640 which I have kept in video-compatible mode, the first dialog I usually get when I try to add a title to the copy list is "Some edit points may shift slightly after copying." I notice I don't always get that dialog--even when picking the first title to add to a brand-new list, sometimes I get the dialog and sometimes I don't. Anyone know what the difference is?Maybe the target DVD is VR mode when you don't get the prompt?

(2) I suppose I could get finer-grain control with editing software on a PC (not that I have time for the long transfer times needed to move recordings to the PC). A related question: is this 15th frame rule something specific to Pioneer, or to the DVD video-compatible mode standard in general? Hmm...not that it sounds like we will get any major enhancements by Pioneer in the future...but I could see an editing feature on a DVD recorder that would let you "pad" the beginning and end of the recording with 15 blank frames, or however many would be needed to satisfy the 15th frame rule...I suppose if the edit point accuracy is that important to you you could edit using vr-mode and then do a real-time copy to a video mode DVD. That should preserve the frame accuracy, but you may get pauses and of course there will be a slight loss of pq. Stlll takes a long time, but at least you don't have to babysit while the copy takes place. Personally, I would rather put up with a few extra frames of a commercial, or if it doesn't take too many frames cut off the first few frames of the program which shouldn't miss much. That's what I usually do. I don't think I have lost any dialog yet. Usually it can be done before the fade-in completes, assuming there is one.

I use frame 15 and frame 00 as edit points.

voranis, it sounds like you might only be using 15 and not 00.

We need Bobkart to explain the "key frame" thing (every 15 frames) again since I've got "misgivings" about the frame-accurate editing.

I take frame-accurate editing to mean the machine "picks" the key frames that MPEG-2 lays down and uses to "create" the other frames in between (the extrapolated frames).

BUT THEN, is the machine is REALLY picking key frames with the 00 and 15, or is it just a "counting" exercise...i.e., if you started editing in Video-mode, then switched to frame-accurate, could the key frames have shifted to frames 3 and 18, for example?

At the very least, I guess you should make sure you start and end an editing project using only one mode!!!??? (Not sure if anyone WOULD mix them, but they certainly COULD.)

Or is all this of no consequence somehow??????

HEY, I JUST REALIZED THAT THIS MAY BE THE REASON THEY SAY THE EDIT POINTS MIGHT MOVE...THEY MIGHT NOT MOVE SO MUCH AS YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE ACTUALLY PICKED THE "REAL" KEY FRAMES TO START WITH!?

I recall reading (here) that the Pioneer recorders automatically create key frams on 00 and 15. More sophisticated encoders make determinations of need for key frames and created them as needed, e.g., for a complete scene change versus a near-static scene.

I do not use the frame accurate setting on my 520 but I do manually select frame 00 or 15 for chapter markers, some of which become markers for deletes. Wherever possible, I use a black screen on 00 or 15 as the ideal choice.

I record many video concerts and I like to place chapter markers at the beginning of each song. Many of the source contents do not have commercials to delete (HDNet, PBS, etc.) so all I am doing is chapter markers, with no deletes except to crop the program start and end as needed.

Since I learned about, and starting using 00 and 15, all of my markers seem to be accurate. If I have deleted a commercial, I see no pause on any DVD player I try. I record the original on the hard drive (in VR mode), make my edits there and then high-speed copy to DVD-R in video mode.

This works well for me on the 520. I don't know how comparable the newer models might be.

One of the best ways to understand the key frames difference between VR and Video mode editing is to try each mode and when you reach an edit point (erase section) press pause. You will notice frame numbers get added to the time readout. Then press <|| or ||> to move to the next frame. In VR mode, it will just go to the next frame. In video mode it jumps to the next 15th (key) frame, forcing you to always be on a key frame. The frame number is always .00 or .15. So, if you edit in VR mode but high-speed topy to video mode, it must enforce the key frame rule and your edit points will move. So, as soon as you switch to Video mode, all your frame accurate edit points must move to the next key frame.

In case anyone else is interested in an expert article on MPEG-2 and "key frames" (sort of), here is a Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2).

The "good" part is the 2nd section entitled "Video coding (simplified)." It even refers to the Huffman encoding scheme that I think Bobkart mentioned (worked on?).

The "best" part for me was the discussion of the "Group of Pictures (GOP)" which is where my question above came from. These are not mentioned in the MPEG-2 std but they are used to help explain the idea.

Basically, I had been wondering, if the MPEG-2 encoder put together a GOP of certain frames, is the machine REALLY picking the key frame of that GOP (the "I" frame), or the nth and nth frame of contiguous GOPs ("B" or "P" frames), or is the machine just counting 15 frames from your stopping/starting point...it looks really "official" but is it really?

I guess if the machine is REALLY stopping on a key (I) frame with that first pause...where it moves a certain number of frames, as AC said above...then it probably IS picking the I frame then, and again every time you do another pause.

That makes sense now...and I suppose can be "proved" by watching the "moves" after each pause...are they always in 15-frame increments ('cause you were always so good that you picked an I frame to stop on...NOT!), or does it move an "odd" number of frames each time to get you to the closest I frame.

If the latter, everything is A-OK...and Pio-neerperfect...in my DVD land!

Edit points will move when you have made them on non-key frames but you are high-speed copying. No doubt the recorder just moves them to the nearest key frame. That's because during high-speed copying, it must copy an entire Group Of Pictures (GOP, starting with a key frame), it can't divide them because they don't make sense unless they are intact. So any cut points you make will be moved to the nearest point that is between two GOPs, rather than try to high-speed copy just part of a GOP.

Regarding Huffman Coding, I had mentioned a few months ago when someone was trying to explain to me what data compression was, that I had David Huffman as a professor in college, I took two courses from him, Introduction to Cybernetics, and Graph Theory. He is of course famous for inventing the well-known lossless data compression technique known as Huffman Coding. Then recently, just as part of my long-standing hobby of computer programming, I wrote a few data compression programs, one that used Run Length Encoding (RLE) and two that used Huffman Coding (one that compressed 8-bits at a time and the other 16-bits at a time, I was interested to see which would perform better). I had no part in the invention of Huffman Coding, that was before my time.

Thanks, Bobkart!

That explains things very nicely...at least for me.

Thanks wabjxo...sigh...

I added another question to my post after you had started your reply (#1 below), and I have another question (#2 below):

(1) But even on the 640 which I have kept in video-compatible mode, the first dialog I usually get when I try to add a title to the copy list is "Some edit points may shift slightly after copying." I notice I don't always get that dialog--even when picking the first title to add to a brand-new list, sometimes I get the dialog and sometimes I don't. Anyone know what the difference is?


I've noticed this too. I doubt that being in VR mode can have anything to do with it, since I've never recorded in VR mode. I do my edits on key frames, so, unless I am missing them regularly, that's not it either.

Since I learned about, and starting using 00 and 15, all of my markers seem to be accurate. If I have deleted a commercial, I see no pause on any DVD player I try. I record the original on the hard drive (in VR mode), make my edits there and then high-speed copy to DVD-R in video mode.

This works well for me on the 520. I don't know how comparable the newer models might be.

Okay, so as I understand it, you are saying the answer to eliminating the slight pauses at deletes is to:

Record to HDD in VR mode
Edit at key frames
HS copy to disc in Video Mode
Disc does not pause at edits

Is that it? If so, thanks for finding the secret! When I edit Video Mode recordings on the HDD, and HS copy to disc, I definitely get a slight pause.

Well building on info supplied by Wabjxo, Budget_HT, and others, when the SciFi Channel shows 8 eps of the first season of Dr. Who, but not the first 5, and then shows The Christmas Invasion, and the first ep of the second season, I will record them in VR mode, edit them at key frames, and dump them to a -RW disc at HS. When I can get them, I will record the first 5 eps on the HDD in VR, edit them, HS copy them to -R disc in Video Mode. I will then HS copy the saved -RW material to the HDD, and copy it to disc in Video Mode, at HS. No encode-decode PQ losses, no pauses, everything in order, best use of disc space, no crowded HDD! Whoopee! Before you think, "Well, duh!," just remember that this took several pieces of info not in the manual, or even denied by the manual, but sussed out by people on this board! So, thanks! BTW, now I will finally have a use for those -RW discs I bought when my 640 was new.

kjbawc, sounds like a great project!

Just some rambling notes:

I'm not "positive" how important it is to record to the HDD in VR mode. I can only personally vouch for the part of the process involving the VR-mode HDD able to copy to VR-mode DVD-Rs, then HS copying those DVDs back to the VR-mode HDD, then copying back again to Video-mode DVDs at high speed.

With a Video-mode HDD, you'll get the option of making edits of Copy list items in either Video or Frame-Accurate mode. Selecting Frame-Accurate "apparently" places the HDD in VR mode temporarily for your edits. I think AC said he used Video-mode HDD for his confirmation tests (see posts above), with editing done "Frame-Accurate" style.

But my "long-term" tests showed no ill effects even if you decide to keep your HDD in VR mode..."forever." You can still Copy ALL your recordings to Video-mode DVDs at high-speed, as normal.

And Budget_HT says he makes frame-accurate editing on a VR-mode HDD as the 1st part of his process...I didn't do any frame accurate editing in my tests, so maybe the VR-mode HDD is important to NOT ending up with pauses???

You might want to do a test for yourself with both VR and Video-mode HDD before you get started with original recording. My only untested unknown is the pauses at edits...which method best accomplishes that, or is it both?

The reason I said I would record to the HDD in VR, is because that seems to be necessary to eliminate the pauses at edits. I know it doesn't eliminate them in Video mode. Also, I don't need frame accurate, because I also need to edit at key frames to eliminate the pauses, if Budget_HT is correct. See his, and my, posts above.

I will take your advice, and test the -RW discs, but I bet they work, if initialized to VR.

The reason I said I would record to the HDD in VR, is because that seems to be necessary to eliminate the pauses at edits. I know it doesn't eliminate them in Video mode. Also, I don't need frame accurate, because I also need to edit at key frames to eliminate the pauses, if Budget_HT is correct. See his, and my, posts above.

I will take your advice, and test the -RW discs, but I bet they work, if initialized to VR.
I was editing my post while you were answering, and voila! we agree on the pauses being a key thing to test. Thanks for letting me know that you, too, get pauses when using Video mode.

Your project will be a great one for proving all sorts of things. Please look for an answer to my still-burning question: can you see the machine moving your edit points an "odd" number of frames, i.e., when you press PAUSE, does the counter move a different amount each time as the machine searches for and finds the key (I) frames of a "Group of Pictures (GOP)"? That will "prove" that it is not a "random" process.

P.S. The -RW idea should work well...I notice both the -R and -RW are together in the manual re: things that can be done in Editing.

I'm not "positive" how important it is to record to the HDD in VR mode. I can only personally vouch for the part of the process involving the VR-mode HDD able to copy to VR-mode DVD-Rs, then HS copying those DVDs back to the VR-mode HDD, then copying back again to Video-mode DVDs at high speed.

With a Video-mode HDD, you'll get the option of making edits of Copy list items in either Video or Frame-Accurate mode. Selecting Frame-Accurate "apparently" places the HDD in VR mode temporarily for your edits. I think AC said he used Video-mode HDD for his confirmation tests (see posts above), with editing done "Frame-Accurate" style.Here's how I understand it:

The HDD Recording Format setting under Initial Setup...Recording only affects editing of the original recording on the HDD...Video mode (forcing key frames) or VR mode (frame accurate). It does not affect copy lists. Whether or not you get get frame accurate editing in the copy list is determined by the target DVD you select:

If you choose to copy to a VR mode DVD-R, you will get frame accurate editing in the copy list regardless of what the HDD is set for. Pauses will appear if you do not edit exactly at each 15th frame.

Similarly if you choose to copy to a Video Mode DVD, you will not get frame accurate editing and pauses should be minimized.

If you use VR mode and edit on the HDD, then copy to a VR mode DVD the frame accuracy will be preserved. Copying to a Video Mode DVD will not preserve the frame accuracy and edit points may move to the next key frame.

If you use Video mode and edit on the HDD, you can only edit on key frames so
pauses should be minimized. (No wait while the player catches up to a key frame because editing is always on a key frame.

Moral: If you plan to edit on the HDD and copy to a video mode DVD, it's better to edit in Video mode so you can choose the best key frame, rather than letting the 640 do it for you.

Your project will be a great one for proving all sorts of things. Please look for an answer to my still-burning question: can you see the machine moving your edit points an "odd" number of frames, i.e., when you press PAUSE, does the counter move a different amount each time as the machine searches for and finds the key (I) frames of a "Group of Pictures (GOP)"? That will "prove" that it is not a "random" process.I have noticed during editing Video mode that when you press pause at the wrong time, it doesn't pause right away, but continues counting frames until it gets to the next 15th frame. Try it. Sometimes it takes a few start/stops before it happens, but it is very telling. Nothing random about it.

So I've had my 640 for a few days now. It seems to be operating in a very solid manner. No glitches or anything so far.

I recorded a sport event with MN speed set for 3:10. Now even though the 640 does maintain full 720 resolution unlike previous models it seems to be a bit softer/slightly blurrier than the same sport recorded a few months back on the Panny es-15 set to FR speed 3:30. I played the two discs back to back and the Panny seems sharper slightly. Both were recorded from digital PPV from a STB vie yelllow composite cable. I'm wondering if there are any "optimal" settings you guys are making in the "video adjust" settings for recording? I think it was set to default "DTV/LDP" setting. Maybe some noise reduction or something is softening the picture?

Other than that I'm really likeing this machine. I've done backup of dvd's HS to the HDD, then HS back to blank DVD. Worked great. I added chapter marks to something I recorded from the STB and then HS'd it to disc.

While I think the GUI/menus, etc are not quite a 'polished' as the Panny, I've quickly gotten used to it and can move around, edit, etc fairly smoothly.

I might get some DL discs to use for things longer than 2 hrs to keep the bitrates higher fro a sharper picture.

I've read through this whole thread but I'm still not totally sure what I need to do to avoid pauses at edit points while still being able to HS copy/burn. I know real time copy will get rid of pauses but I want to stick to HS. Maybe doing them in VR? Honestly I am a bit confused with all the combination of recording I could do... video HDD, VR HDD, video DVD, VR DVD, etc. Is there one clear way that is best to leave things at?

The machine is fairly quiet also despite the HDD and a fan.

Thanks for any info!

And Budget_HT says he makes frame-accurate editing on a VR-mode HDD as the 1st part of his process...I didn't do any frame accurate editing in my tests, so maybe the VR-mode HDD is important to NOT ending up with pauses???


He also said he did his edits at .00, and .15 frames, so I'm not sure if "frame accurate" editing is necessary, since "Video Mode compatible" will do that. I am assuming that it is something about recording, and or transfering, in VR that eliminates the pauses. Also, don't I need to record to the HDD in VR mode, if I want to HS copy that to a disc, also in VR mode? I know the disc has to be in VR mode to HS copy back to the HDD.

One more thing, when I do an HS copy of a HDD VR mode recording to a disc, and want it in Video Mode on the disc, how do I select for that?

Also, what is the difference of editing a title right from the disc navigator screen (selecting edit while a title is highlighted) or doing the edits from within the copy lists during the copy to dvd process?

If there are differences then when is each useful/favorable?

Thx!

ZZen, Budget_HT is the only one who claims to have produced discs w/o pauses at edit points, in post #1044. Below is my summation of what I think he was saying is his procedure. He hasn't been back to confirm that I read him correctly, or not, yet.


Okay, so as I understand it, you are saying the answer to eliminating the slight pauses at deletes is to:

Record to HDD in VR mode
Edit at key frames
HS copy to disc in Video Mode
Disc does not pause at edits

Is that it? If so, thanks for finding the secret! When I edit Video Mode recordings on the HDD, and HS copy to disc, I definitely get a slight pause.

Also, what is the difference of editing a title right from the disc navigator screen (selecting edit while a title is highlighted) or doing the edits from within the copy lists during the copy to dvd process?

If there are differences then when is each useful/favorable?

Thx!

When you change it in the copy list, the original is unchanged. If you edit from Disc navigator, that is the original. If you slip up, you could lose something you don't want to, or you might want to do a different edit later, but couldn't. So far, I've done my edits under Disc navigator, and haven't regretted it. But, If I do something complicated, that I might want to re-do, I'll use a copy list.

Here's a little more to add to my post #1055 which I hope explains the differences of HDD editing vs Copy list editing with Video mode & VR mode. I think the point may have been missed, but regarding pauses I think it boils down to this:

Using video mode will minimize (but not eliminate completely) pauses at edit points during playback. There is a very slight pause at edit points in video mode which is why it is preferable to edit at a black frame. (I only use DVD-R discs. Maybe pauses are worse for +R?)

To eliminate pauses, use VR mode and turn on Seamless Playback which is found under Initial setup...Playback in the menu. As the manual says:

"Seamless Playback
On: Playback is smooth, but with a trade-off against the accuracy of the edit points.
Off: You may notice momentary interruption at edited points during playback of a VR mode Play List.
(This setting applies to HDD, DVD-R/-RW (VR) and DVD-RAM playback.)"

This is the only way I know to completely eliminate pauses, but of course if you then copy to a Video mode DVD in order to be compatible with more players, the edit points may move and pauses will return. (There may be pauses in other VR mode compatible players.)


So, IMHO here are my rules of thumb regarding editing:

1) If you want to remain compatible with other players, use video mode and try to edit as close to black frames as possible to minimize those slight pauses.

2) If you plan to high-speed copy the recording back onto the HDD for later editing, use VR mode. If you use Video mode, you're stuck with a real-time copy back to the HDD which results in pq loss and much more time.

3) If completely eliminating pauses is important to you and you don't care about compatibility with other players (or any future player you may buy) use VR mode.

4) Do your editing in the copy list whenever possible because editing there does not fragment your HDD the way actually editing on the HDD (from the Disk Navigator) does.

Remember: when using the copy list the target DVD type determines the type of editing. VR mode target disc gets you frame accurate editing. Video mode target disc does not, but forces editing points at key frames which minimizes pauses.

The HDD (Disk Navigator) default editing mode (VR or Video) is determined by the HDD Recording Format setting. It is poorly named. It should be called "HDD Editing Mode". You can override it during your edit when prompted for Video mode or frame accurate editing.

He also said he did his edits at .00, and .15 frames, so I'm not sure if "frame accurate" editing is necessary, since "Video Mode compatible" will do that. I am assuming that it is something about recording, and or transfering, in VR that eliminates the pauses. Also, don't I need to record to the HDD in VR mode, if I want to HS copy that to a disc, also in VR mode? I know the disc has to be in VR mode to HS copy back to the HDD.
Now I'm totally confused by all the "clarifications" and opposing suggestions. I can only point you to my previous posts on my experience with HDD VR mode, etc. Let us know if you get "pauseless" results, and which method worked for that.

One more thing, when I do an HS copy of a HDD VR mode recording to a disc, and want it in Video Mode on the disc, how do I select for that?
You don't need to do anything except put a normal Video-mode disc in the tray and Copy as normal...no "selection" necessary. That's only for a Video-mode disc that you want in VR mode, then "Initialize."

So, ACP, are you saying that you can't produce a Video Mode disc that doesn't have slight pauses at edit points? I believe that Budget_HT claims to have done so.

If you turn on seamless playback, and still edit at key frames, wouldn't your edit points remain acurate? Then, would your seamless playback HDD VR recording produce a Video mode disc, w/o pauses, if you HS copy to disc in Video mode? Perhaps that is what B_HT has discovered.

You say that when using a copy list, the target DVD determines the editing mode, Video mode, or VR. You mean by sensing the disc already loaded, so you need to initialize to VR, if you want to record in VR, and that determines what format recording goes on the disc? Is the same true for editing in Disc navigator?

Addendum: It seems wabjxo answered one of my questions, while I was making this post.

My mind has been completely backwards on the Frame Accurate Editing thing.

It's pretty clear that a HS copy to Video-mode DVD will ALWAYS shift edit points to key (I) frames, if not already at those points.

So...Frame Accurate editing will LOSE edit points during high-speed copy because edits can be made to the P and B (non-key) frames...that's the purpose of Frame Accurate...to allow non-key edits.

Video-mode editing will RETAIN edit points during a HS copy to Video-mode DVD since it has already set those points to the nearest key (I) frame during editing...you don't have a choice.

So again...the question remains: if you use VR-mode DVDs, as in a compilation project, to transfer back and forth, which do you use. If you use Frame Accurate, will you eventually lose those "precise" points if you end up making a HS Video-mode DVD? If so, no reason to use it in a compilation project...or ever???

If you're a fan of real-time copying, I suppose that's another subject, or even another thread?

So, ACP, are you saying that you can't produce a Video Mode disc that doesn't have slight pauses at edit points? I believe that Budget_HT claims to have done so. If you mean those very slight pauses that just seem to freeze on a frame at the edit point for about 1/16th or 1/8th of a second then yes I am saying you can't product a video mode disc without them using high-speed copy. (If you were to edit in VR mode and copy in real-time to a video mode disc, then you should get a pauseless video mode DVD but you will lose a bit of pq.)
If you turn on seamless playback, and still edit at key frames, wouldn't your edit points remain acurate? Then, would your seamless playback HDD VR recording produce a Video mode disc, w/o pauses, if you HS copy to disc in Video mode? Perhaps that is what B_HT has discovered. No, the edit points will move when switching to video mode, causing pauses while the player catches up to the next key (15th) frame. (This is the 3rd time I have typed this in the last 24 hours. I must be terrible at explaining this unless my posts are just too long to read? :confused: ) Seamless playback only applies to VR mode DVDs or HDD recordings edited using frame accuracy.
You say that when using a copy list, the target DVD determines the editing mode, Video mode, or VR. You mean by sensing the disc already loaded, so you need to initialize to VR, if you want to record in VR, and that determines what format recording goes on the disc?Yes, if you insert the disc before setting up the copy list. You have a choice to load a disc later, in which case it overrides the auto-detect and asks you what kind of disc (+R/-R) and what kind of editing (VR/Video) you want.
Is the same true for editing in Disc navigator?No, the HDD can work with VR mode or Video mode. The target DVD is what counts. If you plan to keep the recording on a Video mode disc for compatibility, use Video mode. If you plan to keep it on a VR mode disc, then go ahead and use frame accurate editing if you want, but if you think you will want to copy to a video mode disc, you might as well use video mode editing in the first place because the frame accuracy will be lost when transferring to a video mode DVD. At least if you use video mode editing in the first place, you decide where the edit point ends up.

BTW: I left out something in my last post #1062: It would seem the HDD Recording Format setting in the menu only functions to determine what the default editing mode is. You can over-ride it when you do a Disk Navigator edit and it prompts you which editing mode you want: Video Mode or Frame Accurate. If you set HDD Recording Format to Video mode on, the prompt defaults to Video Mode. If you set it to Off, the prompt defaults to Frame Accurate Editing as expected. (I've edited the post.)

So again...the question remains: if you use VR-mode DVDs, as in a compilation project, to transfer back and forth, which do you use. If you use Frame Accurate, will you eventually lose those "precise" points if you end up making a HS Video-mode DVD? If so, no reason to use it in a compilation project...or ever???It all boils down to weighing the importance the compatibility of Video Mode vs the pauseless (on the 640) frame accuracy and temporary storage benefits of VR mode.

I need Video mode compatibility myself, so I'm sticking with video mode editing all the time and just using VR mode if I plan to copy something back to the HDD. I would also hate to find out a few years down the road that my new HD recorder doesn't read VR mode discs, or doesn't have seemless playback so I wasted my time with frame accuracy. (I figure future players are more likely to be compatible with Video mode.)

I'm not able to discern picture quality as well as some (a friend of mine switches between HD and SD broadcasts on his HDTV and I can't see any difference, even though I know there is) and I don't have a large screen TV, so I hadn't noticed a difference in picture quality.
But I wasn't aware of the loss of pq--now that I know about that, I may try to plan ahead of time to use manual recording more. I remember when I tried manual recording once before, I made the calculation and then bumped the rate one lower to be on the safe side--I had read that somewhere. The pq may become more of an issue if I ever get a large-screen TV and get more accustomed to viewing TV in that mode, so I should go ahead and do what I can to get the best pq in my recordings now.

Thanks!
Yesterday, I had a surprise. My first experience.
I had a program recorded at XP on my hard drive that was 1 hour, 7 minutes I wanted to copy!
I went through manual copy and was warned of it being too much for the disk and asked if I wanted it to adjust to fit. I chose yes. It then continued on and copied it at MN31 which is 65 minutes and I saw no loss of quality viewing on my large screen TV.
Gotta love that brainy machine!

Urlee :D

I've noticed this too. I doubt that being in VR mode can have anything to do with it, since I've never recorded in VR mode. I do my edits on key frames, so, unless I am missing them regularly, that's not it either.

I never record in VR mode either on the 640, either on the HDD or DVD (yet--but probably will use VR mode for archiving for later compilations as AC outlined), so that couldn't be it.

Could it be that the titles where we don't get the dialog message just happen to start (and maybe end) on key frames? I don't know, that seems like it wouldn't happen very often.

I know when I edit a title on the 640 it asks whether I want video-compatible editing or not. So far, I've always done video-compatible. Maybe if the title has been edited in video-compatible mode, you don't get the message when you add it to the copy list? But it seems like I get the dialog for some titles I've never edited. Not sure about this--I will try to be more observant of this in the future to see...

Setting edit points to key frames is the reason why the final, HS Video-mode copy will and MUST have visible "pauses"...it's "skipping" from one I-frame (100% key frame) to another at the edit point. That causes a "delay" in the DISPLAY because, now, instead of processing a long series of Groups of Pictures (GOPs), consisting of 100/10/2/2/10/2/2/10/2/2/10/2/2/10/2% frames, it has to process a 2-frame set of key > key, which disrupts the process flow and takes more Mbps to display!

I imagine the processor running along nicely with a long series of GOPs, then it hits a 100%>100% two-frame transition, and it says "WTF?"

So, if your project must end up on Video-mode DVDs copied at HS, just edit "normally," in Video-mode. Forget "Frame Accurate" and accept the slight "blips" or "pauses" at your edit points (unless they're all black frames) since you're going to Copy to DVD at high-speed, which forces all cuts to key frames anyway.I think we are in agreement!

Do you mean by the frame percentage thing that it is a processing delay caused by the sudden jump from say 2% of the frame changed to 100% of the frame changed as compared to the previous frame? If that's what you mean, I'm not sure because there are lots of times in programs when the frame changes 100% (from one scene to the next) and no pauses. Maybe I misunderstand.

I thought what causes the pauses might be more related to the delay while the player skips/reads the next block (GOP?) up to the next key frame without anything to process/display until it finishes reading. Certainly when you convert from frame accurate edits to video mode, if you edit at say frame 7 the delay seems to be longer than if you edit at frame 0 or 15 right?

When using frame accurate editing on the hard drive, when you edit out a segment ending at say frame 8, I wonder if frames 9 - 15 are still retained on the HDD, or if they are replaced with duplicates of frame 8 for video mode copies? I suspect the former because that would be closer to the "edit points may move" warning.

Anyway, that's what I meant when I said the pauses are when the player is catching up to the next key frame, but your explanation is more detailed and eloquent. ;) I believe we are in agreement about the net result and usage!

I think we are in agreement!

Do you mean by the frame percentage thing that it is a processing delay caused by the sudden jump from say 2% of the frame changed to 100% of the frame changed as compared to the previous frame? If that's what you mean, I'm not sure because there are lots of times in programs when the frame changes 100% (from one scene to the next) and no pauses. Maybe I misunderstand.
We're zeroing in on this now!

I re-read the Wikipedia entry on MPEG-2 and had another "epiphany" that reverses my "theory" above and suggests more strongly a 2% > 100% theory.

Wikipedia says it can take 3x LONGER (in time) to encode/process a stream of B pics (the 2% ones) than a stream of I pics (the 100% ones)!

This means a 2% > 100% transition makes more sense...the encoder is spending MORE time processing the P and B frames than it is on the next I frame (key frame), where the 100% pic is generated quickly and you're off and running again.

Since B frames can take 3x longer than I frames to encode, P frames (10%) must also take some time longer. So, if a particular scene is very simple and requires mostly B frames, the transition to a DIFFERENT I frame than it had predicted before...because you edited out the next I frame and several more (?) GOP(s)...the transition/"pause" will be long, and only slightly shorter for a more complex scene requiring more P frames.

Ah...a perfect world once again!

We're zeroing in on this now!

I re-read the Wikipedia entry on MPEG-2 and had another "epiphany" that reverses my "theory" above and suggests more strongly a 2% > 100% theory.

Wikipedia says it can take 3x LONGER (in time) to encode/process a stream of B pics (the 2% ones) than a stream of I pics (the 100% ones)!

This means a 2% > 100% transition makes more sense...the encoder is spending MORE time processing the P and B frames than it is on the next I frame (key frame), where the 100% pic is generated quickly and you're off and running again.

Since B frames can take 3x longer than I frames to encode, P frames (10%) must also take some time longer. So, if a particular scene is very simple and requires mostly B frames, the transition to a DIFFERENT I frame than it had predicted before...because you edited out the next I frame and several more (?) GOP(s)...the transition/"pause" will be long, and only slightly shorter for a more complex scene requiring more P frames.

Ah...a perfect world once again!You may be on to something if processing time during playback for each type of frame is similar to the encoding time, (which I believe the Wikipedia entry is referring to,) but there are a number of other factors to consider: Is it faster to calculate and render a B frame or P frame which represents only the changed part of the picture than it is to load and render a complete I frame which has more info but less calculating? How fast is all this in relation to the usual bottleneck the drive causes. Do read-ahead buffers have anything to do with it?...etc. I wonder how common it is to have 2 frames side by side?

Interesting, but we're speculating quite a bit here. At least we now know the behavior of our 640s with the different editing modes...I'm happy. :)

Interesting, but we're speculating quite a bit here. At least we now know the behavior of our 640s with the different editing modes...I'm happy. :)
:( You won't be happy when I tell you the results of my "exhaustive" tests...at least, I'm exhausted. :mad:

The goal: To find a way to record to the HDD, edit in either VR or VM mode, and copy either high-speed (HS) or real-time (RT) to Video-mode DVDs THAT WON'T HAVE PAUSES at the edit points.

I used VR-mode (VR) and Video-mode (VM) HDD, VR and VM editing, and HS and RT copying to Video Mode DVD-R. I recorded short segments to the HDD, then edited the Originals via Disc Nav (assuming there would be no diff. in editing a virtual copy of that original in the Copy List).

I even tried AC's method: Video-mode HDD with Frame Accurate (VR) Editing.

NONE OF THE COPIES WERE SEAMLESS, EITHER ON THE 640 OR MY PANASONIC COMBO COMPATIBILITY TESTER. They ALL had pauses at the edit points, slightly less noticeable on the Panasonic, longer via HS and slightly shorter via RT. Of course, all the RT copies lost the chapters I set by editing.

One ray of light shone for a brief second when I noticed that, while all the edited originals recorded to VM HDD paused on the 640 (with Seamless Playback on and off), those recorded to a VR HDD and edited in either VR or VM mode did NOT pause on the 640 itself. I thought this would make a diff. in the resulting HS or RT copy...NOPE! All -R copies still had pauses at the edit points. :mad:

P.S. The only thing I didn't try that MIGHT make a diff. (but not sure how or why) is make the edits on virtual copies via the Copy menu.

Is it faster to calculate and render a B frame or P frame which represents only the changed part of the picture than it is to load and render a complete I frame which has more info but less calculating?
The Wikipedia entry states, as I said in my post, that processing a stream of B pics (the 2% ones) can take 3x longer (in time) than an stream of I-pics (the 100% ones). This is what makes the 2%>100% transition theory for "pauses" seem plausible.

Well, my testing days may be over, at least for awhile...for the 2nd time, I accidentally deleted my wife's Soaps!

I told her it was the 640's "well-know" TPF (Timer-Program Fault) ;) ...you know, the one we've been talking about for the past few weeks. ;) ;) ;)

She didn't believe me, but I told her that y'all would back me up. ;)

She said she wouldn't believe you either! ;)

;) ;) ;) ;)

Just for AC, I've added 10 "winks" and this note for Newbies: There is NO 640 TPF!

Well, my testing days may be over, at least for awhile...for the 2nd time, I accidentally deleted my wife's Soaps!

I told her it was the 640's "well-know" TPF (Timer-Program Fault)...you know, the one we've been talking about for the past few weeks.

She didn't believe me, but I told her that y'all would back me up.

She said she wouldn't believe you either! :(Careful...you're going to have newbies considering the 640 thinking there really is a "TPF". :p

:( You won't be happy when I tell you the results of my "exhaustive" tests...at least, I'm exhausted. :mad:

The goal: To find a way to record to the HDD, edit in either VR or VM mode, and copy either high-speed (HS) or real-time (RT) to Video-mode DVDs THAT WON'T HAVE PAUSES at the edit points.

I used VR-mode (VR) and Video-mode (VM) HDD, VR and VM editing, and HS and RT copying to Video Mode DVD-R. I recorded short segments to the HDD, then edited the Originals via Disc Nav (assuming there would be no diff. in editing a virtual copy of that original in the Copy List).

I even tried AC's method: Video-mode HDD with Frame Accurate (VR) Editing.

NONE OF THE COPIES WERE SEAMLESS, EITHER ON THE 640 OR MY PANASONIC COMBO COMPATIBILITY TESTER. They ALL had pauses at the edit points, slightly less noticeable on the Panasonic, longer via HS and slightly shorter via RT. Of course, all the RT copies lost the chapters I set by editing.

One ray of light shone for a brief second when I noticed that, while all the edited originals recorded to VM HDD paused on the 640 (with Seamless Playback on and off), those recorded to a VR HDD and edited in either VR or VM mode did NOT pause on the 640 itself. I thought this would make a diff. in the resulting HS or RT copy...NOPE! All -R copies still had pauses at the edit points. :mad:

P.S. The only thing I didn't try that MIGHT make a diff. (but not sure how or why) is make the edits on virtual copies via the Copy menu.When I initially read your post I misread it and thought you were saying you couldn't get playback without pauses on VR mode DVDs, so I went back and confirmed my previous testing...still no problem. Even if I edit in Video mode I get no pauses when Seamless Playback is turned on either on the HDD or a VR mode DVD copy. Just very brief muted audio at the edit point, but no video pause.

Then I realized you were talking about trying to get no pauses in Video mode. I guess I didn't expect that because after all the discussion in the past few days I am surprised you even tried. You can't do that with the 640 alone. Again, the only way I can think of to get a pause-free video mode recording would be to use a 2nd DVDR and copy/dub from the 640 using seamless playback, but that would cause a loss of pq.

No offense, but I think you are still missing a few points:

1) Seamless playback only applies to HDD or VR mode playback.

2) There is no real "Video Mode" or "VR mode" recording to the HDD. All HDD recordings are the same. All that matters is the type of editing you select, and even that can be over-ruled if you copy to a video mode disc. (eg frame accurate editing is lost when copying to a video mode DVD.) You can actually edit once using Video mode editing, and then edit the same program again using Frame accurate editing. VR mode can preserve frame accurate editing. Video mode cannot, therefore no HS copy to video mode will be "pauseless."

3) All the HDD Recording Format setting (found in the Initial Setup...Recording menu) does is set the default for the editing mode (Video Mode or Frame Accurate) prompt when you do a Disk Navigator edit and it prompts you which editing mode you want.

The HDD has frame accurate editing which can be preserved by a VR mode disc, but the 640 can also enforce Video mode editing rules for HDD editing in anticipation of copying to a video mode DVD. The source file on the HDD is the same before editing regardless

4) Copy list editing works the same way HDD editing does. It won't make any difference regarding pauses if you edit using the copy list.

Again, the only way to go "pauseless" is turn on seamless playback and play from the HDD or a VR mode DVD. You could dub that playback to a video mode DVD on another DVDR and of course that will be as seamless as the playback. It ain't lossless though. :(

Talk about "missing a few points"!

Really, AC, you're starting to get annoying!

If you mean those very slight pauses that just seem to freeze on a frame at the edit point for about 1/16th or 1/8th of a second then yes I am saying you can't product a video mode disc without them using high-speed copy. (If you were to edit in VR mode and copy in real-time to a video mode disc, then you should get a pauseless video mode DVD but you will lose a bit of pq.)
No, the edit points will move when switching to video mode, causing pauses while the player catches up to the next key (15th) frame. (This is the 3rd time I have typed this in the last 24 hours. I must be terrible at explaining this unless my posts are just too long to read? :confused: )

After reading all that has come since, I can see that my thoughts on the subject might not coincide with reality, but I think it was you that didn't understand me. My point was that if you make your Video mode, or VR mode, edits on key frames, why should the player "have to catch up" to a key frame? And, why should edit points move, if done on a key frame? Indeed, my Video Mode edits, done on key frames, don't seem to move at all. The pauses I get at edit points are not a fraction of a second, but just over a second. If you fast forward through a few minutes, with several edits, the FF will pause at each, before continuing. It makes a real stutter!

Still, I take your other points, and am especially glad to understand that in the HDD, Video mode, and VR are the same. That explains a lot.

Wabjxo, thanks for all of your experiments. I do appreciate it. Still, I may do a few of my own. ;)

Budget_HT, if you are still around, if I did not misinterpret you, please explain how you got pause-free edits on a Video Mode disc!

Folks,

Yesterday I was away. Tonight I conducted some tests to provide a more complete and accurate description of my workflow that results in DVD-R video mode copies without pauses using recordings made from my HD DirecTiVo (HR10-250) to my Pioneer 520H.

In short, the initial DVD-R copy made from the HDD did include pauses, depending on which DVD player the DVD-R was played on. The pauses were definitely there when playing on my Pioneer DVDR and on my Sony DVP-NC665P DVD player, but the pauses were NOT there when playing that same DVD-R on my MacBook using Apple's DVD Player. I don't know why this difference exists.

Because all DVDs I am recording are of 16x9 widescreen programs originally broadcast on HDTV, I go through some extra steps to set the widescreen flag. The HD TiVo does not send the widescreen flag but it does send anamorphic output to the DVDR.

So my steps go like this:

1. Record original high definition program on the HD TiVo.

2. Use the HD TiVo "Save to VCR" function to make an anamorphic copy on the Pioneer 520H hard drive.

3. Set chapter markers for editing out commercials, etc.

4. Use Chapter Edit to delete those chapters that contain the commercials.

5. Set any more desired chapters (e.g., start of each song, etc.).

6. High Speed Copy from the hard drive to a DVD-R. This anamorphic copy will playback fine to a widescreen (16x9) TV, but will be vertically stretched on a 4x3 TV (because it lacks the widescreen flag). This copy also contains pauses when viewed on some players.

7. Name and Finalize the DVD-R.

8. On my MacBook, copy the VIDEO_TS folder from the DVD-R to the Mac hard drive.

9. Open the copy on the Mac hard drive with Toast Titanium 7, and use the Toast features to force the widescreen flag (specifying 16x9) but NOT re-encoding the program material.

10. Using Toast, burn a new DVD-R (video mode). The resulting DVD-R has the widescreen flag set properly, and it plays back WITHOUT PAUSES on my MacBook, Sony Player and the Pioneer DVDR.

11. Copy the new DVD-R using Disk Backup on the Pioneer DVDR to make as many copies as needed.

In my earlier post, I indicated that I had "pause-free" DVD-R results, and in fact I do. Since I only use the first DVD-R (recorded on the Pioneer DVDR) to move the content to my MacBook to set the widescreen flag, I don't ever watch that DVD-R. Instead I watch the later copy from the MacBook with the widescreen flag.

So, My Pioneer 520H DVDR does have pauses in my recordings, even with my forcing the edit/chapter points to 00 and 15 frames, with Frame Accurate off and Seamless Playback off.

I am sorry that I unintentionally misled folks into thinking that it should be possible to get "pause-free" recordings directly from the Pioneer 520H.

I am happy that my final results are "pause-free," but apparently something gets cleaned up when I use Toast to re-burn the new DVD-R on my MacBook (and my eMac previously). I have no explanation for why this works the way it does.

Well, that clears that up! :) :eek:

Has anyone had an opportunity to record a secondary audio channel on the 640? I missed a chance last night. I timer recorded Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast from Turner Classic Movies. When reviewing it today I saw that it contained a commentary track by film historians that could be accessed through the SAP feature. If I would have known ahead of time, I'd have set the audio to SAP. It would have been nice to have.

Talk about "missing a few points"!

Really, AC, you're starting to get annoying!Sorry if I annoyed you wabjxo. Just trying to help. I guess I've been getting a bit frustrated because I spent a lot of time testing and documenting my findings regarding HS copying back to HDD, HDD Recording Format, Video Mode vs VR Mode and eliminating playback pauses in posts 1000, 1055, 1062 etc, yet questions & uncertainties about points I thought I had already cleared up continued to pop up. I thought I explained my findings pretty clearly with straight-forward recommendations, so It seemed like either my posts weren't read or I wasn't believed/trusted. If the tone of my post gave away my frustration, I apologize.

I'm curious, what exactly was it that annoyed you and what point(s) do you feel I missed?

Has anyone had an opportunity to record a secondary audio channel on the 640? I missed a chance last night. I timer recorded Jean Cocteau's Beauty and the Beast from Turner Classic Movies. When reviewing it today I saw that it contained a commentary track by film historians that could be accessed through the SAP feature. If I would have known ahead of time, I'd have set the audio to SAP. It would have been nice to have.
Try looking in your TV menus...you might just have to "turn on" SAP/subtitles...they may/should be on the recording, but your TV controls their "display." It may have a diff. name than "SAP"??? (The default TV setting is, obviously, OFF.)

P.S. Actually, my TV button for SAP is "Caption" (on/off). I recorded a news program today that was transmitting SAP..."SAP" showed up on my 640's display... w/o setting anything special and with standard DVR setup options, and the show's captions appeared on my TV once I turned "Captions" on with the TV remote...they always take a few seconds to appear, so I never assume a show doesn't have SAP until waiting a short time.

After reading all that has come since, I can see that my thoughts on the subject might not coincide with reality, but I think it was you that didn't understand me. My point was that if you make your Video mode, or VR mode, edits on key frames, why should the player "have to catch up" to a key frame? And, why should edit points move, if done on a key frame? Indeed, my Video Mode edits, done on key frames, don't seem to move at all. The pauses I get at edit points are not a fraction of a second, but just over a second. If you fast forward through a few minutes, with several edits, the FF will pause at each, before continuing. It makes a real stutter!Sorry if I misunderstood your question...and if I sounded impatient.

I'm no expert as to the mechanics of the pause. We've been speculating about it somewhat and I think it has something to do with the fact that 2 key frames are back-to-back. wabjxo has his own theories about it too. I just know it does happen in Video mode, and yes I have noticed the pauses are more noticable when you fast-forward. I think it's better to use |<< and >>| or commercial skip on recordings with lots of edits unless you don't mind the pauses at edit points.

What I can tell you is I tested and I have found that when playing back a VR mode recording, pauses are also eliminated when using << and >> as long as seamless Playback is on.

After reading all that has come since, I can see that my thoughts on the subject might not coincide with reality, but I think it was you that didn't understand me. My point was that if you make your Video mode, or VR mode, edits on key frames, why should the player "have to catch up" to a key frame? And, why should edit points move, if done on a key frame? Indeed, my Video Mode edits, done on key frames, don't seem to move at all. The pauses I get at edit points are not a fraction of a second, but just over a second. If you fast forward through a few minutes, with several edits, the FF will pause at each, before continuing. It makes a real stutter!
I've begun to think I understand the source of the pause?

I used to produce videos and if I compare our recorder environment against that, the pauses make SOME sense.

"True" (uncompressed) video recording is done with a "full-frame, 30 fps" system, i.e., the camera or recorder creates a series of 100% (my term "full-frame") pics (640x480, etc.)... not the 100%/10%/2% GOPs that MPEG-2 produces.

With full-frame video, a cut from one frame to another in a "continuous" scene (same subject, etc.) creates only a "nanosecond" "blip" that is difficult for the human eye to see.

With MPEG-2 compression, the creation of 10% and 2% "representations" (predictions and bkwd/fwd "looks"...the P and B frames) HAVE TO (?) ALWAYS (?) suffer some sort of problem at a cut since the key frames the representations are based on (the last key frame and the next one) no longer have a known or mathematically configurable ("extrapolated"?) path. That is, you've screwed with the encoder's algorithm.

Here's another way to understand this? A simplified version:

You have a series of GOPs that MPEG-2 encoded to the HDD. One of those sections has key-frame 1 (I-1) + a series of P and B frames, then there are many following GOPs...I-2, I-3 etc.

If you cut out I-2, you're cutting out one of the key frames (I-2) the encoder built an entire relationship on! The path is now I-1 to I-3 and that transition was not built directly by the encoder!

So, maybe playing that "disrupted" path somehow causes the pauses? One thing that makes some sense (to me, anyway) is the fact that P and B frames take up to 3X longer (in time) to reproduce than I frames? That may play a role?

If the encoder is used to "reproduce" the series of GOPs when playing or copying, that fact may explain some delay. If it isn't used...? Maybe that's why RT copies retain the pauses since the encoder is used for that...but what about HS copies? Maybe it has to do with the DAC...Pio has a 10-bit DAC, Pannys have a 12-bit...do they have the same problem. But then, I don't even know if the DAC is used in Playing a recorded video???

I'm naming this "problem" the MPDP, for "Mpeg Disruptor Phenomenon."

[Can't place "winks" or "smilies" so NOTE: The last sentence is a JOKE!
Hey, maybe this whole post is!?]

Tried the SAP setting on the TV while playing the DVDR, Wabjxo - no dice. It would have worked while watching it on TCM, but I didn't set it to record SAP when I programmed the timer. Unfortunately, there was nothing in the TCM program listing to indicate there was a commentary track. It only appeared in writing before the movie aired. Next time.

You have a series of GOPs that MPEG-2 encoded to the HDD. One of those sections has key-frame 1 (I-1) + a series of P and B frames, then there are many following GOPs...I-2, I-3 etc.

If you cut out I-2, you're cutting out one of the key frames (I-2) the encoder built an entire relationship on! The path is now I-1 to I-3 and that transition was not built directly by the encoder!I believe any key (I) frame can stand on its own...no relationship to any other frame. That's the point behind key frames. The player can start playing from any key frame. Here's what Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-frame) says:

Intra pictures (or slices or I-frames or key frames)

* Is a picture coded without reference to any picture except itself.
* May be generated by an encoder to create a random access point (to allow a decoder to start decoding properly from scratch at that picture location).
* May also be generated when differentiating image details prohibit generation of effective P or B frames.
* Typically require more bits to encode than other picture types.

So in your example there would be no relationship between I-1 and I-3 to worry about. The player should just be able to happily start playing at I-3. The question is, is anything inserted between I-1 and I-3 on a video mode DVD?

So, maybe playing that "disrupted" path somehow causes the pauses? One thing that makes some sense (to me, anyway) is the fact that P and B frames take up to 3X longer (in time) to reproduce than I frames? That may play a role?If you are still referring to the Wikipedia MPEG-2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-2) source, I believe they are saying that encoding of P and B frames can take 3 times longer, but does that necessarily refer to playback/decoding too? :confused:

(Hope this isn't annoying too...still not sure what was or what point I missed?)

Hey, Alan, you might have helped me find a good use for setting your HDD to VR (Video-mode Off), rather than the "normal" Video-mode.

With a HDD set for VR (Video-mode Off), you will always be recording both L and R channels for programs that have a SAP audio channel. Per the fine-print note at bottom of pg 115 in the manual:

"When Video Mode On is used, you must select the audio channel you want to record when recording a broadcast with a SAP channel. [my note: the "default" for this is "L" only].

On the Video Mode Off setting, both channels [L and R] will be recorded and you can switch between them on playback. See also Dual Mono Recording on page 111."

From my "long-term" tests, setting your HDD to VR mode has no ill effects...you can still high-speed copy to Video-mode DVDs as normal, despite the manual's "warnings" or "suggestions" that you can't.

In fact, I just remembered that I had my 640 set to VR when I was doing some tests on SAP...maybe that's why it worked w/o any problem for me then. I just had to turn SAP on in my TV's audio menu....and, of course, find a channel that was transmitting the SAP (CSPN, HLN, CNN, ESPN are sure bets).

Lots of discussion of VR vs VM above, and here's a thread on the HDD VR subject I started (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=691617)...applied then to the 53x/63x series and applies now to the new 640.
CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY WHEN I DO MANUALLY CHAPTERS( EDIT) ON A MOVIE ON hdd AND AFTER WHEN I COPY ON A DVD -R (HIGH SPEED) AND CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION.

THE COPY DO NOT FINALIZE AND PLAY ONLY ON THE 640 AND NOT OTHER DVD. WITH THE NEXT BUTTON ON THE REMOTE I CAN NOT ADVANCE TO NEXT CHAPTER WHEN THE DVD IS IN THE 640 BY THE WAY.

BIZARRE I CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION BUTTON AND DID NOT DO IT.

AND ALL THAT WHEN I MADE CHAPTERS IN THE DISK NAVIGATOR.

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY WHEN I DO MANUALLY CHAPTERS( EDIT) ON A MOVIE ON hdd AND AFTER WHEN I COPY ON A DVD -R (HIGH SPEED) AND CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION.IT DONT WORK!!!!!!!!

THE COPY DO NOT FINALIZE AND PLAY ONLY ON THE 640 AND NOT OTHER DVD. WITH THE NEXT BUTTON ON THE REMOTE I CAN NOT ADVANCE TO NEXT CHAPTER WHEN THE DVD IS IN THE 640 BY THE WAY.

BIZARRE I CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION BUTTON AND DID NOT DO IT.

AND ALL THAT WHEN I MADE CHAPTERS IN THE DISK NAVIGATOR.

Hi everyone! I am new to this forum and I was so excited to see such a HUGE thread for this machine.

I've had my 640 for about a week now. I LOVE it! I have always been a huge TV lover, but also quite social, so I have relied heavily on my VHS recorder. I now have two small kids, so I have even less time to watch my shows these days. I am almost always watching kids shows while the TV is on during the day, so it's nice to tape all my shows to watch them in the PM after everyone is in bed. I love that this machine can record my shows while my kids can watch their taped shows on the HDD (almost makes you feel like you have a dual tuner!).

Anyway, I have a few questions! I think some of them were already answered here, but it was hard searching this thread for everything, so sorry if this is repetative!

1. No title Names??? Hello???? The titles of my weekly timed recordings are lost. This means I have to go in and enter titles everyday for all of my taped shows. YUCK! Any word on a firmware upgrade for this? Can we start a petition or something??? This is REALLY time consuming for me - and it must be done or I have no idea what I have taped most of the time.

2. Some titles automatically appear? I've set up my 640 as per the user manual's setup 1 (for only occassionally taping from digital cable box). Therefore, when I want to tape a scrambled movie/tv channel, I tape "line 1" or "L1". The strange thing is, I used one-touch recording for a test to tape a scrambled movie, and the movie title automatically popped-up!!! BUT, it hasn't happened since?! Was it a fluke? OR, will some movies have this info and others not? I live in Canada and my cable provider is Shaw. I've read other user reviews that say titles do come up automatically, so I don't understand how this works!

3. Can scrambled movies on subscription movie channels be copied from HDD to DVD? I've recorded movies to the HDD, but I haven't tried copying them to DVD yet, but I know there is a possibility that movies are 'copy once' format (as I have read somewhere). Does this depend on the cable provider?

4. I have weekly programs set up, and they all were created with an 'OK' status (last column displayed on the create timed recordings screen). Now, most of them are saying "Until 10/17 or 10/23". Is this because of HDD space limitations or is this because you can only set-up a timed weekly recording for a month at a time?

5. Anyone tried copying from VHS to DVD? I want to try, but I don't know where to begin. Should this be done VHS to HDD then to DVD? The user manual has a big ATTENTION note stating that the 640 had 'copy protection technology'. Is this a bogus statement or does it just 'recognize' VHS macrovision? I just want to copy my old personal VHS tapes to DVD, so I shouldn't have any problems, should I?

6. Anyone heard of any HDD longevity issues with this machine? I read a user review (I am not sure if I am allowed to say where - let's just say it's a popular consumer review site) where a guy from Montreal, Canada had a 640 that had a HDD crash after 5 weeks of use. He got a new machine from the store and the same thing happened 4 weeks later. A bad batch maybe? Or maybe this user was not following proper set-up instructions (poor air circulation/overheating)?

7. On the Disc Navigator screen, is there any way to automatically display the last genre you viewed? Whenever you press the disc nav button, it always seems to go back to ALL genres and you have to select your desired genre all over again.

8. No DV Input. This is a drag, but not a show-stopper. Is Pioneer planning a new model that is like the 640 but has DV Input?

9. Anyone been able to contact Pioneer technical support in Canada without hassle and with the toll free number provided? Every time I call to ask questions, it goes to a voice mail message. ????

10. Pioneer Canada's website is sooooooo slow and hangs up every time I've tried to access it this past week! Is it always like this, or just bad luck/bad timing on my part?

Okay - I'll stop at ten questions - but I may have more later!


Thanks so much everyone!!!!!
Pokee

Hi Pokee

5. Anyone tried copying from VHS to DVD? I want to try, but I don't know where to begin. Should this be done VHS to HDD then to DVD? The user manual has a big ATTENTION note stating that the 640 had 'copy protection technology'. Is this a bogus statement or does it just 'recognize' VHS macrovision? I just want to copy my old personal VHS tapes to DVD, so I shouldn't have any problems, should I?

I'm new at this too, but I think I can answer the above question. I've made about 6 VHS to HDD to DVD-R recordings since getting my 640. I hooked up my S-VHS recorder to the front inputs on the 640 and set the 640's tuner to L2. I just played the tape and hit HDD record (after deciding the best recording speed), went about my business and stopped it at the end. I've made two S-VHS to HDD recordings, one home movie, one regular VHS recording and tried two pre-recorded commercial VHS tapes. Both were old movies - one recorded fine, the other said copy protected when I hit HDD record. I guess any VHS tape with copy protection will not record to HDD. No problems copying to DVD on any of the HDD recordings. Hope this helps. Others here have made hundreds of recordings and will probably have more info to give.

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY WHEN I DO MANUALLY CHAPTERS( EDIT) ON A MOVIE ON hdd AND AFTER WHEN I COPY ON A DVD -R (HIGH SPEED) AND CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION.IT DONT WORK!!!!!!!!

THE COPY DO NOT FINALIZE AND PLAY ONLY ON THE 640 AND NOT OTHER DVD. WITH THE NEXT BUTTON ON THE REMOTE I CAN NOT ADVANCE TO NEXT CHAPTER WHEN THE DVD IS IN THE 640 BY THE WAY.

BIZARRE I CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION BUTTON AND DID NOT DO IT.

AND ALL THAT WHEN I MADE CHAPTERS IN THE DISK NAVIGATOR.What brand of DVD media are you using? Did this happen just once, or every time? Did you try to finalize again using the Disc Setup menu, and if so, were there any errors?

1. No title Names??? Hello???? The titles of my weekly timed recordings are lost. This means I have to go in and enter titles everyday for all of my taped shows. YUCK! Any word on a firmware upgrade for this? Can we start a petition or something??? This is REALLY time consuming for me - and it must be done or I have no idea what I have taped most of the time.
This is a known problem w/no fix in sight. Something that might help is to make sure the Thumbnail portrayal for your recordings is set for "Quick Preview" in the Initial Setup > Options menu. That's the default setting, and it shows clips from throughout the recording, rather than just from the beginning where you might have a commercial before the show, or the show starts with the "weekly death" or some such.

2. Some titles automatically appear? I've set up my 640 as per the user manual's setup 1 (for only occassionally taping from digital cable box). Therefore, when I want to tape a scrambled movie/tv channel, I tape "line 1" or "L1". The strange thing is, I used one-touch recording for a test to tape a scrambled movie, and the movie title automatically popped-up!!! BUT, it hasn't happened since?! Was it a fluke? OR, will some movies have this info and others not? I live in Canada and my cable provider is Shaw. I've read other user reviews that say titles do come up automatically, so I don't understand how this works!
You will get titles if you press REC, as long as the show name is broadcast. Somehow, the 640 cannot pick that name up for a timer rec...and I've tested all the timer methods, incl. Easy Timer and VCR+. As soon as the Timer gets involved, no Title!

3. Can scrambled movies on subscription movie channels be copied from HDD to DVD? I've recorded movies to the HDD, but I haven't tried copying them to DVD yet, but I know there is a possibility that movies are 'copy once' format (as I have read somewhere). Does this depend on the cable provider?
As long as the show is not copy-protected somehow on your DVR, you can copy to the 640 via Line Input.

For Copy-Once items, you can copy those to the 640 if you set your HDD for "Video Mode Off" (which is "VR" mode)...you can't record Copy-Once items w/a Video-mode HDD. Set that via Initial Setup > Recording > HDD Recording Format.

A VR-mode HDD will also always be recording a SAP audio channel if one is broadcast for a program. CNN, HLN, CSPN, ESPN and many others always do.

You can leave the HDD in this format without any ill effects. You can still copy from HDD to DVD in high-speed, even tho' the manual and the machine will "warn" you that you can't.

4. I have weekly programs set up, and they all were created with an 'OK' status (last column displayed on the create timed recordings screen). Now, most of them are saying "Until 10/17 or 10/23". Is this because of HDD space limitations or is this because you can only set-up a timed weekly recording for a month at a time?
That's just reminding you of the HDD space limitation. It shows the date by which you'll need to remove one or more of the "stacked up" recordings that will be on the HDD if you don't remove something.

5. Anyone tried copying from VHS to DVD? I want to try, but I don't know where to begin. Should this be done VHS to HDD then to DVD? The user manual has a big ATTENTION note stating that the 640 had 'copy protection technology'. Is this a bogus statement or does it just 'recognize' VHS macrovision? I just want to copy my old personal VHS tapes to DVD, so I shouldn't have any problems, should I?
No problem for personal tapes. Set the HDD/DVD button to HDD or DVD (whichever you want to record to...if DVD, insert a DVD and give it time to LOAD), set the recording speed w/REC MODE button under sliding door (but only if that speed is diff. from the machine's default SP...but then, it's always good to check it, one press shows current mode), then press PLAY on the VCR and REC on the 640.

6. Anyone heard of any HDD longevity issues with this machine? I read a user review (I am not sure if I am allowed to say where - let's just say it's a popular consumer review site) where a guy from Montreal, Canada had a 640 that had a HDD crash after 5 weeks of use. He got a new machine from the store and the same thing happened 4 weeks later. A bad batch maybe? Or maybe this user was not following proper set-up instructions (poor air circulation/overheating)?
First I've heard of this...or anyone else's Pio HDD crash on a 2005 or 2006 model.

7. On the Disc Navigator screen, is there any way to automatically display the last genre you viewed? Whenever you press the disc nav button, it always seems to go back to ALL genres and you have to select your desired genre all over again.
Sorry, I don't set Genres.

8. No DV Input. This is a drag, but not a show-stopper. Is Pioneer planning a new model that is like the 640 but has DV Input?
Actually, Pioneer says it is getting out of the business of mfg DVD recorders. They say they are teaming with Matsushita on something (forgot what)??? They also may have someone else make them.

9. Anyone been able to contact Pioneer technical support in Canada without hassle and with the toll free number provided? Every time I call to ask questions, it goes to a voice mail message. ????
10. Pioneer Canada's website is sooooooo slow and hangs up every time I've tried to access it this past week! Is it always like this, or just bad luck/bad timing on my part?
Sorry, I'm in U.S.

CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY WHEN I DO MANUALLY CHAPTERS( EDIT) ON A MOVIE ON hdd AND AFTER WHEN I COPY ON A DVD -R (HIGH SPEED) AND CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION.IT DONT WORK!!!!!!!!

THE COPY DO NOT FINALIZE AND PLAY ONLY ON THE 640 AND NOT OTHER DVD. WITH THE NEXT BUTTON ON THE REMOTE I CAN NOT ADVANCE TO NEXT CHAPTER WHEN THE DVD IS IN THE 640 BY THE WAY.

BIZARRE I CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION BUTTON AND DID NOT DO IT.

AND ALL THAT WHEN I MADE CHAPTERS IN THE DISK NAVIGATOR.
Only one way I can think of that the disc didn't Finalize is if, on the last Copy screen where you have to select "Finalize," you have to arrow up to it, press ENTER, then answer a dialog "Yes" or "No" to Finalize. The DEFAULT is NO, so if you just press ENTER on that dialog, the disc won't be Finalized.

In case this was the problem, make sure you arrow left in the dialog to "YES," then press ENTER. ???

Welcome pokee99!

1. No title Names??? Hello???? The titles of my weekly timed recordings are lost.

2. Some titles automatically appear? I've set up my 640 as per the user manual's setup 1 (for only occassionally taping from digital cable box). Therefore, when I want to tape a scrambled movie/tv channel, I tape "line 1" or "L1". The strange thing is, I used one-touch recording for a test to tape a scrambled movie, and the movie title automatically popped-up!!! BUT, it hasn't happened since?! Was it a fluke? OR, will some movies have this info and others not? I live in Canada and my cable provider is Shaw. I've read other user reviews that say titles do come up automatically, so I don't understand how this works!Yes, this is a known issue. Timer events always get names just using the date, time and bitrate, whereas if a program name is broadcasted (usually) it will be used for manual recordings. I started a thread regarding this in hopes of getting some support from other 640 users to urge Pioneer to supply a firmware update:

Wanna fix the Pioneer DVR-640H-S Timer Event Title Name Issue? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727506)

Unfortunately, although many users seem to be bothered by the issue, there has been little response so far. Not sure why.3. Can scrambled movies on subscription movie channels be copied from HDD to DVD? I've recorded movies to the HDD, but I haven't tried copying them to DVD yet, but I know there is a possibility that movies are 'copy once' format (as I have read somewhere). Does this depend on the cable provider?I use Starchoice satellite and I can record anything including premium movie network stuff to HDD and then copy to DVD. So far I don't think we have a problem with that in Canada.4. I have weekly programs set up, and they all were created with an 'OK' status (last column displayed on the create timed recordings screen). Now, most of them are saying "Until 10/17 or 10/23". Is this because of HDD space limitations or is this because you can only set-up a timed weekly recording for a month at a time?I have weekly timers set up too but don't get that....at least not now. The HDD hasn't got too much on it at the moment. I believe that is the 640's subtle way of telling you unless you delete some recordings it won't have space to continue recording after that date.5. Anyone tried copying from VHS to DVD? I want to try, but I don't know where to begin. Should this be done VHS to HDD then to DVD? The user manual has a big ATTENTION note stating that the 640 had 'copy protection technology'. Is this a bogus statement or does it just 'recognize' VHS macrovision? I just want to copy my old personal VHS tapes to DVD, so I shouldn't have any problems, should I?You shouldn't have any problem unless the tapes are copy protected. When you dub, I recommend you temporarily switch to the "VCR" video adjust recording preset, (there are recording and playback presets,) and use S-Video if available on your VCR. If you want to backup your copy protected tapes to DVD, you can use a"video stabilizer" or sima product in serial between the VCR and the DVDR. Do a search on this forum.6. Anyone heard of any HDD longevity issues with this machine? I read a user review (I am not sure if I am allowed to say where - let's just say it's a popular consumer review site) where a guy from Montreal, Canada had a 640 that had a HDD crash after 5 weeks of use. He got a new machine from the store and the same thing happened 4 weeks later. A bad batch maybe? Or maybe this user was not following proper set-up instructions (poor air circulation/overheating)?Lots of possibilities here. Could just be a dud HDD which happens in the computer industry all the time, and the 640 contains a drive similar to what you get in a computer. (Unfortunately, they don't make them like they used to....just bigger & faster. ;) ) I had a 640 die in a lightning storm. The power went off several times during a timer recording, and each time amazingly the 640 dutifully came back on and started recording again...until the last time and then it never came on again. This all happened very fast, so I think it just got fried, as did my TV, 2 modems, router, computer's NIC and the A/C circuit in the wall!! Everything was surge protected including my phone lines. I don't blame the 640 (luckily I only had it for a week,) but I will definitely be unplugging everything during lightning storms from now on. If lightning can travel miles/kms through air, how is a surge protector going to stop it right?

I think if you treat the 640 well, (maintain ventilation, temperature etc,) don't leave it on 24/7, keep it relatively defragmented/optimized and unplug in storms, hopefully it will last until we can all afford HD recorders. :) 7. On the Disc Navigator screen, is there any way to automatically display the last genre you viewed? Whenever you press the disc nav button, it always seems to go back to ALL genres and you have to select your desired genre all over again.I don't think so, although I don't use Genres. Can't be bothered, and I try to keep the HDD contents minimized. Try to keep in mind the HDD is a temporary storage area. I use it like a Tivo/PVR too, but delete after watching, copying to DVD first if I want a permanent copy. If you keep too much on the drive, optimizing will take a very long time and you should probably optimize occasionally. (A few users of older models have reported some problems probably caused by fragmentation of the HDD.) Refer to my posts# 1000 & 1062 in this thread for help with copying to/from DVD etc. It will save you time.8. No DV Input. This is a drag, but not a show-stopper. Is Pioneer planning a new model that is like the 640 but has DV Input?Unlikely, but not impossible. Pioneer has announced they are quitting R&D for DVD and concentrating on HD recorders. Something about joining forces with Matsushita/Panasonic. Don't know if that means the 640 is the last DVD model or not.9. Anyone been able to contact Pioneer technical support in Canada without hassle and with the toll free number provided? Every time I call to ask questions, it goes to a voice mail message. ????Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have gotten through pretty fast every time I've called, except once when I was on hold for a long time. Try in the morning. I believe they only have 2 CSRs, (Carl & Tasha) so if you get Tasha, she's the one with more experience. I have found however there isn't necessarily a lot of technical knowledge there. You may do better on this forum. There are some very knowledgable people here.10. Pioneer Canada's website is sooooooo slow and hangs up every time I've tried to access it this past week! Is it always like this, or just bad luck/bad timing on my part?I have noticed they seem to be on a slow server, and it hung on me today, but it isn't always that bad. Maybe that's part on the reason for the lack of response to my Timer Event Naming issue post?!? :(

What brand of DVD media are you using? Did this happen just once, or every time? Did you try to finalize again using the Disc Setup menu, and if so, were there any errors?

i have good media when i do not make chapters it finalize it s only when i do chapter on the edit etc etc it dont bizarre and the button( finalize) is ok because i have the option ( finalize)and the choice of the menu pictuere....

tyvm

Only one way I can think of that the disc didn't Finalize is if, on the last Copy screen where you have to select "Finalize," you have to arrow up to it, press ENTER, then answer a dialog "Yes" or "No" to Finalize. The DEFAULT is NO, so if you just press ENTER on that dialog, the disc won't be Finalized.

In case this was the problem, make sure you arrow left in the dialog to "YES," then press ENTER. ???

i did that and i had confirmation and the follow question what screen menu i whant!!!!!!!!!! said yes to..............

tyvm

i try something else on the 640 on initial configuration y check on RECORD and put CHAP. AUTO on 15 minutes.

when the copy began it says 6 chapter and do the finalized thing.

but on play mode on the 640 or other dvd player i dont see 6 chapters and if i push the NEXT button on the remote nothing appear.

i buy it on sept.06 and fabication is july 06 is it the software or the recorder?

bizarre............

tyvm

Originally Posted by franky932
CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY WHEN I DO MANUALLY CHAPTERS( EDIT) ON A MOVIE ON hdd AND AFTER WHEN I COPY ON A DVD -R (HIGH SPEED) AND CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION.IT DONT WORK!!!!!!!!

THE COPY DO NOT FINALIZE AND PLAY ONLY ON THE 640 AND NOT OTHER DVD. WITH THE NEXT BUTTON ON THE REMOTE I CAN NOT ADVANCE TO NEXT CHAPTER WHEN THE DVD IS IN THE 640 BY THE WAY.

BIZARRE I CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION BUTTON AND DID NOT DO IT.

AND ALL THAT WHEN I MADE CHAPTERS IN THE DISK NAVIGATOR.



I had a problem finalizing a DVD and it was because I was taping something on the HDD while I was trying to do this. The copy works while the HDD is in use already, but finalization does not. Could this be it?

i try something else on the 640 on initial configuration y check on RECORD and put CHAP. AUTO on 15 minutes.

when the copy began it says 6 chapter and do the finalized thing.

but on play mode on the 640 or other dvd player i dont see 6 chapters and if i push the NEXT button on the remote nothing appear.

i buy it on sept.06 and fabication is july 06 is it the software or the recorder?

bizarre............

tyvm
Auto-chapter only works when you copy from HDD > DVD in real-time, not high-speed. A real-time copy strips custom chapter "marks" you created in an "Edit" mode...obviously, it "honors" any edits you made, such as Erase Section, but it strip the chapter mark normally created at each such edit point. Real-time copy replaces edited chapter marks with auto-chapter marks at the interval you selected in Intial Setup. For a real-time copy, you have to select a diff. Recording Mode in the final screen of the Copy menus (where "Finalize" is).

High-speed copy retains custom edits and chapters you create in an "Edit" menu, but does not auto-chapter, so it's the "opposite" of a real-time copy.

Tried the SAP setting on the TV while playing the DVDR, Wabjxo - no dice. It would have worked while watching it on TCM, but I didn't set it to record SAP when I programmed the timer. Unfortunately, there was nothing in the TCM program listing to indicate there was a commentary track. It only appeared in writing before the movie aired. Next time.
Alan, I just thought of another thing you might want to try.

IF you're viewing the TCM program via Component connection to your TV, try either Composite or S-Video...Component connections will NOT record SAP (for units with Component Inputs) and will "probably" also strip or just not pass the SAP to the TV.

Of course, you still have to turn SAP (or "Captions") on in your TV.

Worth a try...it might actually be there...here's hoping you are using Component to the TV, eh?

Foiled again, Wabjxo. My 11 yr. old TV is pre-component, so it is connected via S-Video. I appreciate your efforts in trying to get me to retrieve that SAP channel from my recording of Beauty and the Beast. I will make a VR mode recording on a SAP encoded program as a test - something I haven't done as yet.

Found an interesting tidbit on MPEG-2 editing in an "expert" website that sheds some light on MPEG-2 editing. There are many sites talking about MPEG-2 editors, the "complexity" of such editing, re-encoding and "transcoders." It is apparently a diffcult job. Something in the 640's "Erase Section" edit or the Copy function might not be up to the task of cutting and/or copying a section from an MPEG-2 stream w/o introducing the dreaded "pause"? (I say Copy 'cause my tests showed there are NO pauses in playing video recorded to and edited on my 640 with HDD set to VR mode, but then, the dreaded pauses show up in Video-mode copies made either in high-speed or real-time (no pauses on Video-mode DVD = the "holy grail").

Here's the "interesting" excerpt from the article, and here's the website (http://web.mymediagear.com/Default.aspx?tabid=128) it's in (thanks to mymediagear.com).

"WHY SO FEW EDITING PROGRAMS WORK WITH MPEG-2

I also wrote that very few popular video-editing programs can edit MPEG-2 video. Another reader explained why:

"Both Mini-DV and MPEG-2 use compression to reduce the number of bytes that they need to store an hour of video. However, Mini-DV compresses each frame separately, while MPEG-2 fully compresses only an occasional 'key' frame; it then uses only a few bytes to record how succeeding frames differ from the key frame. A video editing program or plug-in can easily start or stop a clip only at one of these key frames. This is why MPEG-2 editing programs run so slowly and produce such poor video: what they are doing is genuinely complex and difficult and they don't have much data to work with."

Unit turned off by itself

I was burning my 40th dvd, walked away for 15 minutes and when I came back the recorder was off.

Does anyone have comments on this situation?

"burning"?

Method?

"WHY SO FEW EDITING PROGRAMS WORK WITH MPEG-2

I also wrote that very few popular video-editing programs can edit MPEG-2 video. Another reader explained why:

"Both Mini-DV and MPEG-2 use compression to reduce the number of bytes that they need to store an hour of video. However, Mini-DV compresses each frame separately, while MPEG-2 fully compresses only an occasional 'key' frame; it then uses only a few bytes to record how succeeding frames differ from the key frame. A video editing program or plug-in can easily start or stop a clip only at one of these key frames. This is why MPEG-2 editing programs run so slowly and produce such poor video: what they are doing is genuinely complex and difficult and they don't have much data to work with."

Years ago I was into a bit of MPEG-2 editing in order to edit my PC video captures. I found Wombles MPEG2VCR the very best. The program worked great, was fast and produced excellent results (no A/V sync issues)- plus it was cheap to purchase. I'm sure it is just as good now as it was then. Just an FYI

"burning"?

Method?
Same as always....HDD to DVD-R, video mode, high speed

Same as always....HDD to DVD-R, video mode, high speedDid the copy complete or not? If you use 16x media, it would complete in roughly 8 or 9 minutes. Did you switch media speeds?

If it didn't complete, maybe it was a bad disc, or a power blip?

Same as always....HDD to DVD-R, video mode, high speed
That IS odd. Maybe a power "sag" or brief failure?

The only "auto-off" I've seen is after a Timer Rec program.

Did the copy complete or not? If you use 16x media, it would complete in roughly 8 or 9 minutes. Did you switch media speeds?
No. What do you mean by switching speeds?

The copy completed.
I'm using a UPS backup.

I just checked the disk; checked to see how an editing turned out. I previously made a DVD using the same copy list, but the edit I made before that burn didn't come through on this one....as if it reverted to an earlier time.
Could be too little room on the HDD. I had that other problem again: When I got under 4 hours left on the HDD, it didn't save copy lists.

I now have enough evidence to assume that -
too little room on the HDD causes problems.

Originally Posted by franky932
CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN WHY WHEN I DO MANUALLY CHAPTERS( EDIT) ON A MOVIE ON hdd AND AFTER WHEN I COPY ON A DVD -R (HIGH SPEED) AND CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION.IT DONT WORK!!!!!!!!

THE COPY DO NOT FINALIZE AND PLAY ONLY ON THE 640 AND NOT OTHER DVD. WITH THE NEXT BUTTON ON THE REMOTE I CAN NOT ADVANCE TO NEXT CHAPTER WHEN THE DVD IS IN THE 640 BY THE WAY.

BIZARRE I CHECK THE FINALIZED OPTION BUTTON AND DID NOT DO IT.

AND ALL THAT WHEN I MADE CHAPTERS IN THE DISK NAVIGATOR.



I had a problem finalizing a DVD and it was because I was taping something on the HDD while I was trying to do this. The copy works while the HDD is in use already, but finalization does not. Could this be it?

i think so i will try again not sure
tyvm

Auto-chapter only works when you copy from HDD > DVD in real-time, not high-speed. A real-time copy strips custom chapter "marks" you created in an "Edit" mode...obviously, it "honors" any edits you made, such as Erase Section, but it strip the chapter mark normally created at each such edit point. Real-time copy replaces edited chapter marks with auto-chapter marks at the interval you selected in Intial Setup. For a real-time copy, you have to select a diff. Recording Mode in the final screen of the Copy menus (where "Finalize" is).

High-speed copy retains custom edits and chapters you create in an "Edit" menu, but does not auto-chapter, so it's the "opposite" of a real-time copy.


ALMOST TRUE my friend normal speed=keep auto chapter high speed =no

edit chapter at high speed=can not finalized dvd=bizarre?

No. What do you mean by switching speeds?

The copy completed.
I'm using a UPS backup.

I just checked the disk; checked to see how an editing turned out. I previously made a DVD using the same copy list, but the edit I made before that burn didn't come through on this one....as if it reverted to an earlier time.
Could be too little room on the HDD. I had that other problem again: When I got under 4 hours left on the HDD, it didn't save copy lists.

I now have enough evidence to assume that -
too little room on the HDD causes problems.I meant switching media from say 8x to 16x, which would of course result in a faster HS copy.

Have you tested your UPS lately? The batteries in them usually don't last more than 6 years, and if the UPS is left on all the time the battery can die much sooner, especially if the battery has been allowed to run down all the way a few times.
If the battery is bad, being on a UPS is actually worse than nothing at all because even if there is a slight drop in A/C voltage, (like a brown out that normally would be no problem,) when the UPS kicks in and switches over to battery to regulate the power your equipment shuts down! Gotta test them regularly.

Assuming the UPS is ok, you may be right about too little space on the HDD. That, or maybe a media problem. Was the copy list very close to completely filling up the DVD? I know editing info is stored in a separate file. Maybe your disc was a bit short on space or the unit lost power right near the end of the copy before it completed copying the chapter marks etc? If it didn't finalize, that might be an indicator.

One other remote possibility: If a timer event fired during the copy, and there wasn't enough free space on the target drive, the recording could not complete and maybe then the unit shut down. It would certainly stop the copy from finalizing if a timer recording was going, but I don't know what the 640 does under those circumstances. This is a stretch, but if the drive is that full, who knows.

ALMOST TRUE my friend normal speed=keep auto chapter high speed =no

edit chapter at high speed=can not finalized dvd=bizarre?

ok..........when there are a recording on the HDD it can not be finalized.

edit chapter manualy and high speed copy=OK

Originally Posted by franky932




I had a problem finalizing a DVD and it was because I was taping something on the HDD while I was trying to do this. The copy works while the HDD is in use already, but finalization does not. Could this be it?

As you may have found out, you cannot finalize a disk when you are recording.
You can edit the HDD Title, (all the editing features) and copy to the disk, but cannot finalize.
You will also find out you cannot edit while recording to disk.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why would I want to edit, record in VR? What editing features does it have that could not be done in Video mode? Example?
Pauses, what pauses? that darn commercial put one large pause (sometimes over 5 minutes) in the movie, why would I object to a fraction of a second.
You may be talking about something other than just cutting out the commercials in movies.
I have recorded over 300 movies, ect on dvd. Not trying to set any record here, just saying that this is one heck of a machine!
The only rejects I have had were operator problem from another machine. (3 total) May experiment to see if iniatalization will recover them.
Sure wish it had auto chapter divide, and HDD title combine (like copy list)

BIG QUESTION :

CAN WHE PUT A THUMBNAIL(thumbnail of the beginning of the chapter) WITH EACH CHAPTER (EDIT MODE) TO SEE ALL CHAPTER
IN THE MENU WITH PLAYBACK LIKE IN REAL COMMERCIAL DVD?

no explanation in the book :eek: :eek:

i like that 640 recorder btw :)

tyvm

That IS odd. Maybe a power "sag" or brief failure?

The only "auto-off" I've seen is after a Timer Rec program.

the unit will also cut off after a period of non use.
correction:
(this is in error, sometimes unit stays on until turned off)

Hi everyone! I am new to this forum and I was so excited to see such a HUGE thread for this machine.

3. Can scrambled movies on subscription movie channels be copied from HDD to DVD? I've recorded movies to the HDD, but I haven't tried copying them to DVD yet, but I know there is a possibility that movies are 'copy once' format (as I have read somewhere). Does this depend on the cable provider?
Pokee

Have Time Warner cable, NEVER have not been able, record to 640's HDD and then to dvd anything that I could view on TV. Anybody have other issues?

BIG QUESTION :

CAN WHE PUT A THUMBNAIL(thumbnail of the beginning of the chapter) WITH EACH CHAPTER (EDIT MODE) TO SEE ALL CHAPTER
IN THE MENU WITH PLAYBACK LIKE IN REAL COMMERCIAL DVD?

no explanation in the book :eek: :eek:

i like that 640 recorder btw :)

tyvm

Don't think you can edit the names, but to see the list of chapters: change to DVD, push Home Menu, select Navigator. and you will see a numbered list that you can select to play

Sure wish it had auto chapter divide, and HDD title combine (like copy list)
You can Combine on the HDD...it's an option in the Copy menu. Place Title in Copy List, in Copy List highlight Title, press Enter, arrow up to 2nd page, select Combine.

Auto-chapter only works when you copy from HDD > DVD in real-time, not high-speed. A real-time copy strips custom chapter "marks" you created in an "Edit" mode...obviously, it "honors" any edits you made, such as Erase Section, but it strip the chapter mark normally created at each such edit point. Real-time copy replaces edited chapter marks with auto-chapter marks at the interval you selected in Intial Setup. For a real-time copy, you have to select a diff. Recording Mode in the final screen of the Copy menus (where "Finalize" is).

High-speed copy retains custom edits and chapters you create in an "Edit" menu, but does not auto-chapter, so it's the "opposite" of a real-time copy.

This is interesting. I normally try to avoid having any chapter marks in the middle of my titles on the DVDs I create. So once, on the 520, I had two titles in the copylist which I combined into one. It left a chapter mark at the combination point. I thought I tried just about every thing I could think of to get rid of it, but I guess I didn't. I didn't do a real-time copy TO the DVD, BUT I did a HS copy to DVD-R Video, finalized the DVD, and then used one-touch copy to bring the title back onto the HDD, thinking the chapter mark would not be preserved. But lo and behold, the new title on the HDD STILL had the chapter mark in it!

You can Combine on the HDD...it's an option in the Copy menu. Place Title in Copy List, in Copy List highlight Title, press Enter, arrow up to 2nd page, select Combine.

Doesn't that just combine in the copy list? I thought they were asking about combining the titles on the original HDD. When I was hitting the max number of titles limit on my 520 HDD, I wanted to try combining titles to keep from hitting the limit (still had plenty of disk space, but a huge number of tiny segments that exceeded the 250 title limit, which is probably why my HDD started having problems), but I could not find a combine menu item on the HDD menus, only in the copy list...

i did that and i had confirmation and the follow question what screen menu i whant!!!!!!!!!! said yes to..............

tyvm

Not sure if all the possibilities have been mentioned--I've tried to read all the posts but there are so many I may have missed something. Two things I've noticed:

(1) If you turn finalize ON, then go back to the previous screen for any reason (say, to change a title or thumbnail, or add or remove more items to/from the copy list), when you go forward again, finalize is set back to OFF.

(2). Even if you have finalize ON, it will not finalize if a timer recording will be starting soon (not sure what the "soon" time interval is but maybe it is spelled out in the manual) or if a timer recording is already in progress.

I think I found a good reason NOT to use frame-accurate editing...edit points won't be preserved if you make a Video-mode DVD in high speed!

Since that is what most of us want to do...edit, HS copy to DVD...!!!

Here is the section of the manual, which I just "discovered" :eek:

Editing accuracy
Some editing commands ask you whether you want to keep Video mode compatibility or frame accuracy (Video Mode Compatible Editing or Frame Accurate Editing).

Frame accurate editing is very precise. The edit point is accurate to the exact frame you choose. However, this accuracy is not preserved in any copy you make if you use the high-speed copy function to make a Video mode DVD. [:eek: so why do it!?]

Video mode compatible editing is less precise. The edit point you choose will only be accurate to within 0.5 to 1 second. On the other hand, these edit points will be preserved if you use high-speed copy to make a Video mode DVD or DVD+R/+RW.

This is interesting too...I copied this from the 520 manual:

Frame accuracy and copying

The Frame Accurate setting (see Frame Accurate on page 102) does not affect the actual video content on the HDD, but it does affect what can be copied and whether high-speed copying can be used.

When Frame Accurate is set to Off , high-speed copying can generally be used to copy titles in the Copy List using a DVD-R or DVD-RW disc in VR or Video mode. However, copy-once protected material (see Restrictions on copying below) can’t be added to the Copy List, and the divide points in edited titles may be out by as much as 0.5 seconds when compared to the original.

When Frame Accurate is On, you can add copy-once protected titles to the Copy List and divide points in edited titles are maintained accurately. However, depending on the content of the Copy List and the disc, it may not be possible to use high-speed copying.

Now as I have said before, I have been high-speed copying frame-accurate titles to DVD-R Video on the 520 for a year and NEVER has it not been able to copy it. I'm not sure under what conditions copying would not be possible...maybe I've never had any copy-once protected content to burn to DVD. Frankly, it seems I can record any channel with my 520 without a problem--although I hear HBO and other channels have some sort of "broadcast flag", I have all kinds of premium channels that I record and burn movies to DVD-R Video all the time and never have a problem. The only copy-protected content I have seen is when the unit records bad signal from the satellite box or the satellite box boot-up screens after a power hit (before I got my UPS).

The 520 manual does not seem to have any indication that edit points will not be preserved in frame-accurate on the resulting DVD. As far I as can tell, my trimming of the beginning and endings of titles is being preserved on the resulting DVD, but I need to do some more testing to be certain. I don't know if using frame-accurate to trim frames off the beginning and ending of a title constitutes an "edit point", however, since no chapter mark is inserted in those cases. I never have any chapter marks in the titles so I can't observe whether these would have moved in the DVDs I make.

I must admit, clarity is not the strong suit of any of these DVD recorder manuals, although Pioneer's manuals are light-years ahead of most other brands in clarity.

You can Combine on the HDD...it's an option in the Copy menu. Place Title in Copy List, in Copy List highlight Title, press Enter, arrow up to 2nd page, select Combine.

That's in the COPY list, you cant combine titles on HDD (to keep them on HDD) Right?

Not sure if all the possibilities have been mentioned--I've tried to read all the posts but there are so many I may have missed something. Two things I've noticed:

(1) If you turn finalize ON, then go back to the previous screen for any reason (say, to change a title or thumbnail, or add or remove more items to/from the copy list), when you go forward again, finalize is set back to OFF.

(2). Even if you have finalize ON, it will not finalize if a timer recording will be starting soon (not sure what the "soon" time interval is but maybe it is spelled out in the manual) or if a timer recording is already in progress.

If the recorder is in the "Recorder Ready" mode you cannot finalize, or if it goes into the ready or record mode it will not finalize. been there done that!

wabjxo, I think you raised some questions earlier about whether the key frames can change. Did you get an answer? I tried to read all the posts but I may have missed the answer, and it may be the same thing as what I am wondering about, below...

When I am trimming the beginning of a title in frame-accurate mode...let's say I cut on the 12th frame because that is the first black frame before the show starts. To be clearer: I cut out frames 1-12. After HS copying to DVD-R Video, I am wondering if the key frame is unmoved (now it would be the third frame in the new title, then the 18th frame), or if it "resets" to the beginning so that the first key frame is 15 frames from the beginning again...

This is interesting too...I copied this from the 520 manual:

Frame accuracy and copying

The Frame Accurate setting (see Frame Accurate on page 102) does not affect the actual video content on the HDD, but it does affect what can be copied and whether high-speed copying can be used.
Interesting indeed!

Now I see where the warnings might have come from in the 53x/63x and 640 series Pios...where the manual and menus for those units say you won't or might not be able to make high-speed (HS) copies from a HDD set for VR-mode (Video-mode Off).

My tests showed the 53x/63x and 640 series can HS copy from a VR-mode HDD to Video-mode discs, but now we've been trying to find out what's causing those annoying (to some) pauses at Erase-Section edit points!

Have you edited and HS-copied all your stuff with a Video-mode HDD?

That's in the COPY list, you cant combine titles on HDD (to keep them on HDD) Right?
No combining of originals...that's correct.

This is interesting too...I copied this from the 520 manual:

Frame accuracy and copying

The Frame Accurate setting (see Frame Accurate on page 102) does not affect the actual video content on the HDD, but it does affect what can be copied and whether high-speed copying can be used.

When Frame Accurate is set to Off , high-speed copying can generally be used to copy titles in the Copy List using a DVD-R or DVD-RW disc in VR or Video mode. However, copy-once protected material (see Restrictions on copying below) can’t be added to the Copy List, and the divide points in edited titles may be out by as much as 0.5 seconds when compared to the original.

When Frame Accurate is On, you can add copy-once protected titles to the Copy List and divide points in edited titles are maintained accurately. However, depending on the content of the Copy List and the disc, it may not be possible to use high-speed copying.

Now as I have said before, I have been high-speed copying frame-accurate titles to DVD-R Video on the 520 for a year and NEVER has it not been able to copy it. I'm not sure under what conditions copying would not be possible...maybe I've never had any copy-once protected content to burn to DVD. Frankly, it seems I can record any channel with my 520 without a problem--although I hear HBO and other channels have some sort of "broadcast flag", I have all kinds of premium channels that I record and burn movies to DVD-R Video all the time and never have a problem. The only copy-protected content I have seen is when the unit records bad signal from the satellite box or the satellite box boot-up screens after a power hit (before I got my UPS).

The 520 manual does not seem to have any indication that edit points will not be preserved in frame-accurate on the resulting DVD. As far I as can tell, my trimming of the beginning and endings of titles is being preserved on the resulting DVD, but I need to do some more testing to be certain. I don't know if using frame-accurate to trim frames off the beginning and ending of a title constitutes an "edit point", however, since no chapter mark is inserted in those cases. I never have any chapter marks in the titles so I can't observe whether these would have moved in the DVDs I make.

I must admit, clarity is not the strong suit of any of these DVD recorder manuals, although Pioneer's manuals are light-years ahead of most other brands in clarity.On the 640 (and I believe the earlier models) if you use frame accurate editing and copy to a VR mode DVD, the edit points won't move. If you copy to a Video mode DVD, the edit points may move a few frames unless you edit at exactly frames 00 or 15 which are the "key frames". If you do that though, you might as well use video mode editing because that's what it does...automatically move you to the .00 or .15 key frames.

Regardless of what type of editing you do, in my experience you can copy at high speed to either a VR or Video mode DVD. I also have yet to run into a problem with HS copies from the HDD. (I'm in Canada though, and I believe we have less broadcasted copy protection...different laws.)

Frame accuracy is mostly just useful for VR mode copies, because as soon as you copy to video mode you lose that frame accuracy. Of course VR mode is less compatible, but it has the advantage of allowing you to copy back to the HDD at high-speed with no loss of pq. Video mode copies from DVD to HDD force real-time copies which of course lose a bit of pq and take much longer.

The only other difference I know of regarding the "HDD Recording Mode" setting (which IMHO should be called "HDD Editing Mode") is to do with how SAP audio is dealt with.

wabjxo, I think you raised some questions earlier about whether the key frames can change. Did you get an answer? I tried to read all the posts but I may have missed the answer, and it may be the same thing as what I am wondering about, below...

When I am trimming the beginning of a title in frame-accurate mode...let's say I cut on the 12th frame because that is the first black frame before the show starts. To be clearer: I cut out frames 1-12. After HS copying to DVD-R Video, I am wondering if the key frame is unmoved (now it would be the third frame in the new title, then the 18th frame), or if it "resets" to the beginning so that the first key frame is 15 frames from the beginning again...
That's exactly the question I've been trying to answer! I've even put a "typical" MPEG-2 pattern (from Wikipedia) in Excel trying to figure where key frames could go, and so far the first problem is knowing this: when you edit to erase a section at "00" or "15" (key frames), will you be CUTTING that frame or leaving it in. On my Excel sheet, I placed the "cut" to left and right of those frames trying to "visualize" it, and only at the left (leaving those frames in) does it make sense. It also showed me that, no matter if it's right or left, you will end up with 14 frames that were created by the encoder to lead into the next, or developed from the previous, key frame and one or more Group of Pictures (GOP) that you cut out!

So far, this 14-frame "oddball" is the only thing that makes sense as the "disruptor" that might cause a pause or some other "problem."

I've read several articles etc. on MPEG-2 editing and all talk of the complexity of it, how "some/most/all" current consumer software is not too great, encoders, transcoders, etc., ad nauseum. They do hint that the complexity of the job is one reason the SW runs slowly and/or does a not-so-great job.

P.S. edit: ONE way to avoid the visible pause is the way you're editing...cut only in black frames...but you have to hope there's always that opportunity and that there are at least 30 (?) frames, maybe more since our consumer equip. seems to be "inexact" (to be kind!)? I think black-frame opportunities will become less and less as the broadcast industry keeps trying to make "predictable" breaks unknown for time and duration, and slapping more things together with NO breaks! We'll eventually never know when, or if, we'll get a potty break!!! :(

Those of you have not tried manual speed for copying, consider the MN20 speed for those 2 hour shows. In SP sometimes the show runs a couple of minutes over and puts the copy at more than 4.7G (or a little less) allowed by a DVD. You large screen viewers may want to test that, but my 34" HDTV does not show a difference. (that I can see) Seems to me the station broadcast has more to do with picture quality (you can't make a bad recording have better pq)

Anybody try writing to the Mini DVD-R ? Or DVD+R? With the RWs that would be four more things the 640 could do! Don't really know why you would want to because they are about 4 times the cost of -R with only 1.4G. Home movies made on Minis say they are copy protected, maybe I need to try VR mode for that?

Any suggestions on computer editing programs for DVDs made on the 640? Like auto create chapters on disk? might not be able to do that on a DVD-R disk after writing to it (before finalize). Maybe RAM disk? That would be more back and forth copies.
Tried copying back to my Toshiba via RAM disk, but wouldn't read it. Did record on Toshiba, auto chapter create, copy to RAM then HS copy to 640 HDD. Walla! movie with auto chapters!

Home movies made on Minis say they are copy protected, maybe I need to try VR mode for that?
Oh, great, now they're trying to protect you from yourself! :confused:

Oh, great, now they're trying to protect you from yourself! :confused:

I know I'm junking up the thread, but got a good laugh from that!
It really suprised me too (the message that it was copy protected)
Maybe that was just a way to say "you really can't do that"

I know I'm junking up the thread, but got a good laugh from that!
It really suprised me too (the message that it was copy protected)
Maybe that was just a way to say "you really can't do that"Let me guess...Sony? :rolleyes:

Voranis, Interesting indeed!

Now I see where the warnings might have come from in the 53x/63x and 640 series Pios...where the manual and menus for those units say you won't or might not be able to make high-speed (HS) copies from a HDD set for VR-mode (Video-mode Off)...with the statement:

"The Frame Accurate setting (see Frame Accurate on page 102) does not affect the actual video content on the HDD, but it does affect what can be copied and whether high-speed copying can be used."

My tests showed the 53x/63x and 640 series can HS copy from a VR-mode HDD to Video-mode discs, but now we've been trying to find out what's causing those annoying (to some) pauses at Erase-Section edit points!

Have you edited and HS-copied all your stuff with a Video-mode HDD?

The 640s I have left on video-compatible mode because I wasn't sure at first if they could do frame-accurate editing in the copy list.

My 520s have been on frame-accurate HDD for the past year, and I have been HS-copying to DVR-R Video with no problems.

Another interesting thing I observed is that when I switched two of the 520s over to frame-accurate ON, I could still use frame-accurate editing in the copylist for all the existing titles that had been recorded with frame-accurate OFF before that. At first I thought maybe I wouldn't be able to HS copy those, but I could. There was no difference (that I have seen yet) between the titles that were previously recorded with Frame Accurate OFF and the new ones that were recorded with Frame Accurate ON. I have been able to do frame-accurate editing in the copylist on all of them and HS-copy all of them to DVD-R Video...

The 640s I have left on video-compatible mode because I wasn't sure at first if they could do frame-accurate editing in the copy list.

My 520s have been on frame-accurate HDD for the past year, and I have been HS-copying to DVR-R Video with no problems.

Another interesting thing I observed is that when I switched two of the 520s over to frame-accurate ON, I could still use frame-accurate editing in the copylist for all the existing titles that had been recorded with frame-accurate OFF before that. At first I thought maybe I wouldn't be able to HS copy those, but I could. There was no difference (that I have seen yet) between the titles that were previously recorded with Frame Accurate OFF and the new ones that were recorded with Frame Accurate ON. I have been able to do frame-accurate editing in the copylist on all of them and HS-copy all of them to DVD-R Video...
That's interesting, again!

I've never been able to see any ill effects from running a VR-mode HDD. Your experience says the same...the only caution would be in the different years they were built and assuming they passed on the same technology in the VR area?

On the 640 (and I believe the earlier models) if you use frame accurate editing and copy to a VR mode DVD, the edit points won't move. If you copy to a Video mode DVD, the edit points may move a few frames unless you edit at exactly frames 00 or 15 which are the "key frames". If you do that though, you might as well use video mode editing because that's what it does...automatically move you to the .00 or .15 key frames.

Regardless of what type of editing you do, in my experience you can copy at high speed to either a VR or Video mode DVD. I also have yet to run into a problem with HS copies from the HDD. (I'm in Canada though, and I believe we have less broadcasted copy protection...different laws.)

Frame accuracy is mostly just useful for VR mode copies, because as soon as you copy to video mode you lose that frame accuracy. Of course VR mode is less compatible, but it has the advantage of allowing you to copy back to the HDD at high-speed with no loss of pq. Video mode copies from DVD to HDD force real-time copies which of course lose a bit of pq and take much longer.

The only other difference I know of regarding the "HDD Recording Mode" setting (which IMHO should be called "HDD Editing Mode") is to do with how SAP audio is dealt with.

AC, that reminds me...based on the information provided by you and wabjxo, I may start making VR-mode DVDs to save for later reassembling of compilations on the HDD. Is HS-copying from the VR-mode DVDs possible whether it is finalized or not? Is there even a concept of "finalizing" for VR-mode DVDs?

Also...is there any difference between using DVR-R and DVD-RW for this purpose (other than the obvious difference that DVD-RW can be reused). I mean, will HS copying to the HDD work from both formats? Are they equally reliable?

Let me guess...Sony? :rolleyes:

Right on! Seems like they had best deal at the time. Do you know if VR mode will copy it?

AC, that reminds me...based on the information provided by you and wabjxo, I may start making VR-mode DVDs to save for later reassembling of compilations on the HDD. Is HS-copying from the VR-mode DVDs possible whether it is finalized or not? Is there even a concept of "finalizing" for VR-mode DVDs?

Also...is there any difference between using DVR-R and DVD-RW for this purpose (other than the obvious difference that DVD-RW can be reused). I mean, will HS copying to the HDD work from both formats? Are they equally reliable?Yes, you can HS copy back to HDD whether a VR mode DVD is finalized or not. (I just tried it because I haven't finalized a VR mode DVD before now.)

You should be able to use -RWs also for HD copies back to the HDD. DVD-R should last longer for archiving purposes, but that's not what RWs are for anyway right? Seems -RW is a great for temporary storage when you plan to move something back to the HDD later...compilations etc.

That's interesting, again!

I've never been able to see any ill effects from running a VR-mode HDD. Your experience says the same...the only caution would be in the different years they were built and assuming they passed on the same technology in the VR area?

Yes, that's true. We can't assume everything's the same. The reason I keep posting about the 520s is

(1) I haven't used the 640s enough to be certain everything works the same, so I have to go based on my experience with the 520s

(2) Yet some of the things I know about the 520s are probably relevant for the 640s as well

(3) I'm curious as to why certain design changes were made between the models.

(4) It's helping me learn about the 640s. For example, posting about frame-accurate on the 520s eventually led to your reports on VR mode on the 640s which helped me understand that it's essentially the same thing. (For a while, I wasn't sure the 640 supported frame-accurate because I didn't realize VR-mode was equivalent.) On the other hand, with all the new info, I may stop using frame-accurate on the 520s now.

I notice too that the 520 is more responsive to the remote than the 640 but I'm sure that's because the 520 can't do as much. :-) For example, when I start editing a title in the copy list on the 520, the first two keys I hit are Pause and then PREV to go back to the beginning, because the first thing I want to do is trim the beginning. I can hit the keys in rapid succession with no problem. (Now, I think this was true even when I had the 520s in Frame Accurate OFF, so I don't think it can be just because they are now in Frame Accurate ON. Something else I need to double-check.) On the 640s, it seems to take a while for the Pause to take effect, so if I hit PREV too soon, the PAUSE is ignored--it goes back to the beginning again and starts playing again. I have to hit PAUSE again, then wait until Pause shows up on the screen, before I can hit PREV. Of course it may be that the Pause has to move to the key frame but I'm fairly certain the 520s moved to the key frame too when they were in Frame Accurate OFF and yet the response was immediate.

Another difference I have noticed is how the machines calculate remaining disk space. On the 520, sometimes when a timer recording is in progress, if I set another timer recording it will tell me there's not enough disk space when there really is. I have checked after the first timer recording ended, and the machine then says the second timer recording is OK. This only happens when the difference between the space needed by the timer recordings is very close to the space remaining on the HDD--usually a margin of a minute or two.

On the 640, this margin seems to be much wider. I had 2 hours and 40 minutes left on the HDD--I set a timer recording for 1 hour 4 minutes and it started recording. I tried to add another timer recording for 1 hour 4 minutes, and the machine said there was not enough HDD space. I said schedule anyway, and when the first timer ended, the machine then said the second timer was OK. The point is, the difference between 2:40 hours and 2:08 hours is much greater than a few minutes--it seems like the 640 gives the warning more often than the 520.

Some times I wonder about the differences because I'm curious if there are technical issues that arise as more features are added to the newer models.

Right on! Seems like they had best deal at the time. Do you know if VR mode will copy it?Actually, it was just a guess based on the copy protection thing. I don't own one so sorry, I can't help with the VR mode copying question. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

Yes, you can HS copy back to HDD whether a VR mode DVD is finalized or not. (I just tried it because I haven't finalized a VR mode DVD before now.)

You should be able to use -RWs also for HD copies back to the HDD. DVD-R should last longer for archiving purposes, but that's not what RWs are for anyway right? Seems -RW is a great for temporary storage when you plan to move something back to the HDD later...compilations etc.

That's probably why I asked...there was something nagging me in the back of my mind about the reliability of the -RWs but I couldn't remember what it was. I probably read at one time they didn't last as long, but I couldn't remember. As you say, it shouldn't be an issue for temporaries. How long will an -RW last as opposed to an -R?

That's probably why I asked...there was something nagging me in the back of my mind about the reliability of the -RWs but I couldn't remember what it was. I probably read at one time they didn't last as long, but I couldn't remember. As you say, it shouldn't be an issue for temporaries. How long will an -RW last as opposed to an -R?That's up for debate. I think there's a thread or 2 here with lost of info on it, but I suspect it will vary depending on the brand/manufacturer, how well you care for them and how many re-writes you do. IMHO I would just consider them as temporary storage anyway, and use cheaper -R for archiving since they are expected to last longer. Here's a thread with some good info: Expected life of a DVD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=702790&highlight=100+years)

AC, that reminds me...based on the information provided by you and wabjxo, I may start making VR-mode DVDs to save for later reassembling of compilations on the HDD. Is HS-copying from the VR-mode DVDs possible whether it is finalized or not? Is there even a concept of "finalizing" for VR-mode DVDs?
I tested both Finalized and Unfinalized VR-mode DVD-Rs. They can be HS copied back to a VR-mode HDD...at least, that's the config. I tested. I didn't test with HDD set for Video-mode...probably no diff.? Also didn't test -RW, +R/RW, -RAM.

I was just testing the manuals and menus "suggestion/warning" that a VR-mode recording couldn't be HS copied to a Video-mode DVD.

I found the VR DVD>HDD HS copy probably useful, but didn't know exactly what for until AC said this VR/HS copy process would be good for his "compilation" project...that's an excellent use for VR!

Here's a thread on my original tests and some of the responses/inputs. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=691617)

Noticed a few references to the 80GB 543 model for Canada. Not even listed on the Pioneer web site but Future Shop has it for $299 (flyer said $369 so someone else must have forced the price down). Looks identical to the 640 except for the hard drive.

Andy....

Noticed a few references to the 80GB 543 model for Canada. Not even listed on the Pioneer web site but Future Shop has it for $299 (flyer said $369 so someone else must have forced the price down). Looks identical to the 640 except for the hard drive.

Andy....
Is that Canadian $ or U.S.? If U.S., you can double your HDD capacity for just "a little more" since the 640 sells for ~US$325 (+ shipping?) in the States???

Is that Canadian $ or U.S.? If U.S., you can double your HDD capacity for just "a little more" since the 640 sells for ~US$325 (+ shipping?) in the States???
No, It's Canadian. It's C$429 for the 640. I'm more interested in the +R, dual density base features as my 633 seems more limited by -R these days. I hope it will be easier to get the stuff off the hard disk. It's always full anyways.
Andy....

Actually, it was just a guess based on the copy protection thing. I don't own one so sorry, I can't help with the VR mode copying question. Maybe someone else can chime in here.
Why would Sony put copy protection on your very own home video that you record on a camcorder? That's insane!

Some times I wonder about the differences because I'm curious if there are technical issues that arise as more features are added to the newer models.
I didn't repeat all your long and interesting post, but just wanted to thank you for it.

Let me know if you see any diff. on the 640 "response time" with HDD set to VR? That will add to our understanding of VR vs VM. It seems that it would have to take slightly more time to reach the "00" and "15" frame points in VM mode, but is that true for both the 520 and the 640? Does the 520 really get to those points faster in "Frame Acc. Off"?

Don't think you can edit the names, but to see the list of chapters: change to DVD, push Home Menu, select Navigator. and you will see a numbered list that you can select to play

at DVD mode you can not go to the Navigator.

i dont whant to put names ....only thumbnail for each chapter on the dvd like real commercial DVD that you can see 8 or 10 or more thumnail in the MENU of the beginning of the film

i try to put tumbnail at each chapter in edit mode.

after copy i see one thumnail il the menu...............bizarre.........

someone did it? or it s not possible!!!!!!!!!!!

tyvm

at DVD mode you can not go to the Navigator.

i dont whant to put names ....only thumbnail for each chapter on the dvd like real commercial DVD that you can see 8 or 10 or more thumnail in the MENU of the beginning of the film

i try to put tumbnail at each chapter in edit mode.

after copy i see one thumnail il the menu...............bizarre.........

someone did it? or it s not possible!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone DID do this, but he used a Toshiba (I think) to insert the thumbnails for the chapters. He copied that back to his "main" machine for making additional copies...couldn't find his post, but he succeeded in doing what you wanted only by using an "intermediate" machine...one that had chapter thumbnail capability.

Sorry if this has already been answered, but i couldn't make myself read through all 39 pages.

Can you watch a movie (dvd) while recording a tv show to the hard drive?

Thanks.

Sorry if this has already been answered, but i couldn't make myself read through all 39 pages.

Can you watch a movie (dvd) while recording a tv show to the hard drive?

Thanks.Yes, and you can also watch anything previously recorded on the hard drive while recording, including the show you are currently recording: "Chase Play". No more having to wait until the recording finishes before starting to watch. You get to instantly skip over commercials too. You'll rarely watch live TV again... watch 1 hour shows in about 40-45 minutes.

I think one thing you can't do is if you are transferring a DVD to the HDD, you can't watch something on the HDD while you are playing a DVD and recording the contents of it on the HDD.

I have a DVD I made (not copy protected) that I put in my Pioneer 640 and had to use "Real Time Copy" to get it to the HDD. While I was doing that I wanted to watch something else (that was already on the HDD) and it wouldn't allow me to do it.

For anyone else interested in editing MPEG-2, etc., I asked if computer users could see the actual compressed data stream and what happens when a section of it is deleted, such as in an "Erase Section" edit.

Here's a response from arciervo that sheds a littl more light on that. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8547273&&#post8547273)

Those of you have not tried manual speed for copying, consider the MN20 speed for those 2 hour shows. In SP sometimes the show runs a couple of minutes over and puts the copy at more than 4.7G

For my 2 hour shows, (movies) which are Timer recorded in SP, I get 127-128 minutes after I erase the commercials and it fits on the 4.7G disc.

Anybody try writing to the Mini DVD-R ?

I did two already and yes, they sure are expensive for only 30 minutes. :o
Only got the 3 pack to record some small footage I had on my analog camcorder that I want separate.

My dream of FINALLY getting that cam tape onto a DVD to be able to get stills from it on my computer came true thanks to the PIO 640 and my poking around with my player!
Have any of you tried a screen shot from Windows Media Player or Real Player?
Unless there is a way, I haven't found it yet? You wouldn't believe what happens when you paste it to a program to save it.
I then poked around using a program that came with my computer that I hadn't been using, and now think very highly of, cause it made my dream come true!
It's called CyberLink. :D

Urlee

Urlee, most anyone with a Windows XP PC probably has another program that came with the computer that will capture stills from a DVD: Windows "Movie Maker". It's in the Program Files folder.

Use the 1. Capture Video > Import Video > Tools > Take Picture from Preview menu. Play the video then click the "Take Picture from Preview" menu item at the spot you want the pic. Has frame advance, etc. to help find the "right" pic. There are many Shortcut Keys, which are listed in Help.

It also captures video from external devices (cameras, etc.).

Does a nice job!

Urlee, IF you have a Windows XP PC, there's probably another program that came with your computer that will capture stills from a DVD: Windows "Movie Maker". It's probably in your Program Files.

Use the 1.Capture Video > Import Video > Tools > Take Picture from Preview menu. Does a nice job!

THANKS wabjxo,
Yes I do have "Movie Maker" which I have never opened to see what it consisted of. Will have to investigate that one.
Forgot to mention my other one is called CyberLink Power DVD.
This computer, AVS forum, Pio 640, sure brought a lot of happiness into my lonely life! :)

Urlee

I then poked around using a program that came with my computer that I hadn't been using, and now think very highly of, cause it made my dream come true! It's called CyberLink. :D

Urlee

Cyberlink Power DVD is great for capturing stills from Video, just press "Pause" (Spacebar) where you want it, then press "C" (for Capture).

This computer, AVS forum, Pio 640, sure brought a lot of happiness into my lonely life! :)

Urlee

I know how you feel, thank God we have Internet too!!

Cyberlink Power DVD is great for capturing stills from Video, just press "Pause" (Spacebar) where you want it, then press "C" (for Capture).


I clicked on that camera when I was poking around and discovered it.
I hit pause, then I forward or backward to the best pic, then I hit the camera.

I use a program called Paint Shop Pro to paste to to doctor it up to save.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/urlee/VideoCaptureCyber.jpg

Urlee

at DVD mode you can not go to the Navigator.

tyvm

Sure can, but first you have to select "home menu" in DVD mode THEN up to navigator on the screen, (not the "Disk Navigator" button). But it still won't do what you are looking for (thumbnails)

For my 2 hour shows, (movies) which are Timer recorded in SP, I get 127-128 minutes after I erase the commercials and it fits on the 4.7G disc.

I Urlee

I was really referring to those movies without commercials. or the 2 1/2 hour Movies. Yes, typically a two hour movie edits to about 1 hour and 33-43 minutes which can be easily fit in SP. The "killer" is the one that takes about 2 minutes more than SP can fit on a disk. MN20 takes that risk out. (we are talking about movies here, not specials)

I clicked on that camera when I was poking around and discovered it.
I hit pause, then I forward or backward to the best pic, then I hit the camera.

I use a program called Paint Shop Pro to paste to to doctor it up to save.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/urlee/VideoCaptureCyber.jpg

Urlee

That's really the best way to do it, and Paint Shop Pro has been my favorite "Picture Fixing Program" for a long time.

Quote:
The "killer" is the one that takes about 2 minutes more than SP can fit on a disk.

Is there some leeway or cushion on the posted times for each setting. I recorded a 96 minute film and selected MN 25 (95 minutes). I chickened out and stopped the recording at 95 minutes missing the final portion of the credits. When I made the DVD it showed 4.1 gigabites, which is below the disc's capacity. I think I could have gotten away with the extra minute.

On the same topic. If you go over and the message says - "exceeded disc capacity," what exactly are the options if you don't want to lose the recording?

Quote:


Is there some leeway or cushion on the posted times for each setting. I recorded a 96 minute film and selected MN 25 (95 minutes). I chickened out and stopped the recording at 95 minutes missing the final portion of the credits. When I made the DVD it showed 4.1 gigabites, which is below the disc's capacity. I think I could have gotten away with the extra minute.

On the same topic. If you go over and the message says - "exceeded disc capacity," what exactly are the options if you don't want to lose the recording?

If you mean when you try to copy to DVD from HDD, you have an option of real time copy that will fit on the disk. If you are recording to disk (not sure about this ) but think the balance will be recorded to the HDD. Have not done that, exclusely use HDD to record. If so, you would have an orphan? In previous post here points out that time is only one of the factors on how much a disk will hold. Also you could edit (in HDD) the recording to fit. I will add 3-5 minutes on the recording time to be sure to get the beginning and end and edit out the stuff I don't want. Once I started a recording unaware I was on DVD mode, and a warning came up to the effect that the recording would be made to the HDD ... there was a recorded DVD in the machine.

Also...is there any difference between using DVR-R and DVD-RW for this purpose (other than the obvious difference that DVD-RW can be reused). I mean, will HS copying to the HDD work from both formats? Are they equally reliable?

One thing to consider is playback compatibility with your dvd players: I do not know if playback of DVD-R(VR mode) is common among DVD players. DVD-RW(VR mode) is becoming more available playback-wise with recent dvd players.

DVD-RW(VR) theoretically does not need to be finalized for playback on compatible dvd players. I do not know if DVD-R(VR) needs finalization before playback on compatible dvd players.

Quote:


Is there some leeway or cushion on the posted times for each setting. I recorded a 96 minute film and selected MN 25 (95 minutes). I chickened out and stopped the recording at 95 minutes missing the final portion of the credits. When I made the DVD it showed 4.1 gigabites, which is below the disc's capacity. I think I could have gotten away with the extra minute.

On the same topic. If you go over and the message says - "exceeded disc capacity," what exactly are the options if you don't want to lose the recording?Hi Alan...you will find you can fit more on a disc depending on the content you are recording. Slower and darker scenes tend to be easier to compress, and if there are black bars top & bottom from down-resing a wide screen program, those black bars take less space. You can usually assume considerably more program will fit on a DVD and adjust your bitrate accordingly. (I won't attempt to say how much, because it varies depending on the type of program.)

For single layer, I have always used the same media: Verbatim 16x DVD-R and they always say 4.4Gb available space when empty. As usual the packaging says 4.7Gb capacity, and I am used to disc capacity being reduced for file systems etc (like computer drives) but I'm wondering: Do all brands of single layer DVDs also always display 4.4Gb? I expect they must since the the expected capacity is used by the 640 to calculate bitrates for auto mode etc, but I know sometimes different manufacturers extend capacity a bit, like CDs: 650Mb vs 700Mb.

Has anyone seen more than 4.4Gb available disk space on a single layer DVD?

It will always be 4.4GB, the actual number being more like 4.377GiB. Note the "GiB" as opposed to "GB", because "GB" is actual billions (1000x1000x1000) as opposed to "GiB" which is based on powers of two (1024x1024x1024).

4.7GB = 4,700,000,000 Bytes
4.377GiB ~= 4,482MiB ~= 4,589,844KiB ~= 4,700,000,000 Bytes

I didn't repeat all your long and interesting post, but just wanted to thank you for it.

Let me know if you see any diff. on the 640 "response time" with HDD set to VR? That will add to our understanding of VR vs VM. It seems that it would have to take slightly more time to reach the "00" and "15" frame points in VM mode, but is that true for both the 520 and the 640? Does the 520 really get to those points faster in "Frame Acc. Off"?

Haven't tried that yet, but I switched a 520 to Frame Accurate OFF last night and when I pressed pause in the copylist edit screen, it jumped to the nearest key frame instantly. No delay like I'm seeing on the 640...

Don't know if this has been reported yet or not. Based on previous posts about being able to start a copy while a timer recording is in progress, I decided to experiment a little and discovered that things like Delete and Edit can also be done to titles on the HDD while a timer recording is in progress. (Didn't try to delete or edit the title currently being recorded--hopefully that is disabled.)

This means that while a timer recording is in progress, you can not only copy titles to DVD, but clean the space off the HDD when you're done. My DVD burning reliability is such that I never feel I have to keep the title on the HDD until the DVD is finalized, so I can move stuff off, free the HDD space, and finalize the DVD later. This is really nice.

I currently have my two 640s on the same satellite box. The original plan was to be able to move things off to DVD on one unit while the second unit was recording, so that the first unit would be able to record something when the second unit was done. But since on the 640 you can move things off while a recording is in progress, my plan isn't as necessary as it would be for my 520s. I may have to move one 640 to be "with" one of my 520s...

It will always be 4.4GB, the actual number being more like 4.377GiB. Note the "GiB" as opposed to "GB", because "GB" is actual billions (1000x1000x1000) as opposed to "GiB" which is based on powers of two (1024x1024x1024).

4.7GB = 4,700,000,000 Bytes
4.377GiB ~= 4,482MiB ~= 4,589,844KiB ~= 4,700,000,000 BytesThanks bobkart. Wow, I guess as a programmer that should have occurred to me! :o

So do no brands let you squeeze a bit more space than 4.4Gb, perhaps for backup software on a pc that isn't necessarily restricted to an expected capacity for compatibility?

I currently have my two 640s on the same satellite box. The original plan was to be able to move things off to DVD on one unit while the second unit was recording, so that the first unit would be able to record something when the second unit was done. But since on the 640 you can move things off while a recording is in progress, my plan isn't as necessary as it would be for my 520s. I may have to move one 640 to be "with" one of my 520s...Wow voranis, you are doing some serious multitask recording. :eek: How do you find time to watch it all, or is it maybe a business...maybe just preparing for retirement? ;)

So do no brands let you squeeze a bit more space than 4.4Gb, perhaps for backup software on a pc that isn't necessarily restricted to an expected capacity for compatibility?Actually 4.4GiB represents a bit more than what a single-layer DVD can hold. It's rounded up from the 4.377...GiB that 4.7GB converts to. So you won't get more than (or even equal to) that amount on a 4.7GB DVD.

What will be different from one brand recorder to the next is how much of that 4.377GiB the recorder lets you use for video material compared to how much it wants to set aside in reserve for authoring purposes (menus and chapter marks). For example I notice on my Panasonic E85H that an FR-mode "full" disc only comes to 4.0GiB (thereabouts). But even on the same model it will let 4409MB written in high-speed copy mode. Not sure why there's that difference.

My Pioneer 633 will let me get quite close to the maximum capacity of a DVD, for example when I made a "large-as-possible" DVD for media quality testing purposes a while back, I got as much on the disc as it would let me to within a half second, and the resulting disc was just a few dozen megabytes short (I forget now the exact number) of the full advertised capacity of a blank disc.

Not sure if I answered your question, but there it is anyway.

Sheesh! I go away for three days, and there are four new pages! So, a little catching up.

Franky932, if you want thumbnails, you will have to use "Divide" to make those chapters separate titles, then you can make thumbnails for each. But, be warned, there will be about a 2 second pause, when the disc plays through from one title to the next. But, at least they DO play through, not stop at the new title.


Alan Linell, I recorded Orpheus too, and didn't know about the commentary track until too late. Oh, well... maybe they will run it that way again.

I also noticed that the recording times you actually get are somewhat longer than the list on p. 125. You should record to the HDD first, trim the ends, and it will then tell you if it will fit on a disc. At Mn19 or 20, I get about 10 min. more than the list says.

Yes, -RW discs work fine, when making HS copies in VR mode, so you can save the content, and HS copy it back to the HDD, for later use. Just make sure the -RW disc is initialized in VR. That is the default setting of the 640, unless you have changed it. But, it can be done with the disc menu. This is the way I will be using my -RW discs! Saves clutter on the HDD. Later, when other elements I want to combine with some things become available, I'll recopy the -RW content to the HDD, and make the complete -R disc I want.


I have done a few experiments. If others have done them, and reported on them here, I apologize for forgetting, and repeating.

First, according to the manual, when making a "Disc Backup" to a -RW disc, the disc cannot be "unfinalized" later. Well, it can be reinitialized, so you can use it over, no problem.

I've been trying to find a way to HS copy a -R disc to HDD, and edit, before a HS copy back to disc. So, with the knowledge gained here that VR mode DVDs will HS copy to the HDD, and VR mode HDD recordings will make a HS copy to Video Mode disc, I did a "Disc Backup" from a -R disc, to the HDD, and copied it back to a -RW disc that was initialized to VR mode. Aha! I have it, I thought... Well, no. It DID copy to the -RW disc, but apparently initialized it to Video mode, so it would not HS copy back to the HDD. Then, I tried to copy the HDD Disc backup to a -R disc, initilaized to VR. It wouldn't let me, it said to use a blank disc. Oh, well, I tried!

I've been trying to find a way to HS copy a -R disc to HDD, and edit, before a HS copy back to disc. So, with the knowledge gained here that VR mode DVDs will HS copy to the HDD, and VR mode HDD recordings will make a HS copy to Video Mode disc, I did a "Disc Backup" from a -R disc, to the HDD, and copied it back to a -RW disc that was initialized to VR mode. Aha! I have it, I thought... Well, no. It DID copy to the -RW disc, but apparently initialized it to Video mode, so it would not HS copy back to the HDD. Then, I tried to copy the HDD Disc backup to a -R disc, initilaized to VR. It wouldn't let me, it said to use a blank disc. Oh, well, I tried!
Another interesting post on VR mode!

When I first discovered the VR-mode HS copy ability, I was using my HDD in VR-mode. Was your HDD in VR mode when you tried the Disc Backup > HDD > -RW?

If it was, that "might" mean that the Disc Backup function, altho' a HS copy to the HDD, might be the "culprit" that stops the HS-copy scheme from working as expected? Hopefully, your HDD wasn't in VR-mode, which "might" be the cause with a simple solution???

Also, I started with a broadcast recording to my VR HDD, then HS copy to -R(VR), then HS "Copy" back to HDD. That's as far as I went. Maybe we need more tests like yours to see if a 2nd HS Copy from the copied-disc-now-on-the-HDD to another VR-mode disc (-R/RW) stops the process from working?

One more thing: were any of the discs you used Finalized and Video-mode...like maybe the first -R? In my original tests, I only used -R(VR) Finalized and Unfinalized.

More testing! :D

Sheesh! I go away for three days, and there are four new pages! So, a little catching up.

Yes, -RW discs work fine, when making HS copies in VR mode, so you can save the content, and HS copy it back to the HDD, for later use. Just make sure the -RW disc is initialized in VR. That is the default setting of the 640, unless you have changed it. But, it can be done with the disc menu. This is the way I will be using my -RW discs! Saves clutter on the HDD. Later, when other elements I want to combine with some things become available, I'll recopy the -RW content to the HDD, and make the complete -R disc I want.

I've been trying to find a way to HS copy a -R disc to HDD, and edit, before a HS copy back to disc. So, with the knowledge gained here that VR mode DVDs will HS copy to the HDD, and VR mode HDD recordings will make a HS copy to Video Mode disc, I did a "Disc Backup" from a -R disc, to the HDD, and copied it back to a -RW disc that was initialized to VR mode. Aha! I have it, I thought... Well, no. It DID copy to the -RW disc, but apparently initialized it to Video mode, so it would not HS copy back to the HDD. Then, I tried to copy the HDD Disc backup to a -R disc, initilaized to VR. It wouldn't let me, it said to use a blank disc. Oh, well, I tried!

Okay, pardon my lack of knowledge, but how can you tell if the copy is in VR mode? I have not used VR (purposely) have done everything in VM. I have copied a video from a Toshiba to a RAM disk then HS copy to 640 HDD.
With all this about VR mode, I still don't know what it can do that VM can't do? Ignorance must be bliss because I have done everything I want to do in Video mode. The exception may be the HS copy (above post) to -RW disks iniatalized in VR mode. Noted that I could not copy a 640 recording to RAM then to Toshiba, but worked the other way. Wondering if this was VR?

I'm thinking of trying some DL discs so I can get a higher quality recording for longer shows/events. Sometimes I need to make additional copies/backups and I think that you can't to a HS disc backup of DL discs. Neither a straight HS backup nor HS to the HDD for editing. I would have to real-time it to the HDD then I could HS burn it again. This is assuming I've made the first HS DL recording and got rid of the origianl HDD content. Is that correct?

Okay, pardon my lack of knowledge, but how can you tell if the copy is in VR mode? I have not used VR (purposely) have done everything in VM. I have copied a video from a Toshiba to a RAM disk then HS copy to 640 HDD.
With all this about VR mode, I still don't know what it can do that VM can't do? Ignorance must be bliss because I have done everything I want to do in Video mode. The exception may be the HS copy (above post) to -RW disks iniatalized in VR mode. Noted that I could not copy a 640 recording to RAM then to Toshiba, but worked the other way. Wondering if this was VR?
If you can see the files, like on a DVD, VR-mode files will have a *.VR extension, and VM-mode will have a *.VOB ext.

On the 640, I think you can see what type of disc you load in the blue display window that pops up after it loads. It disappears pretty fast, so you have be prepared.

Also, when playing a DVD, I think the Display shows the type after pressing Display button twice or three times, can't remember which.

Can't remember if you can see the type of recording of things on the HDD...maybe Display also shows for those???

If you can see the files, like on a DVD, VR-mode files will have a *.VR extension, and VM-mode will have a *.VOB ext.

On the 640, I think you can see what type of disc you load in the blue display window that pops up after it loads. It disappears pretty fast, so you have be prepared.

Also, when playing a DVD, I think the Display shows the type after pressing Display button twice or three times, can't remember which.

Can't remember if you can see the type of recording of things on the HDD...maybe Display also shows for those???

Thanks wabjxo,
Pushing the Display shows the HDD and DVD and the VR will show on the DVD. it also shows on the second screen (blue screen) as "Video" or "VR" and RAM disk shows as RAM. Did not notice the difference until I formatted a DVD-RW in VR. Now raises the question since the RAM disks shows neither (displays RAM) , what is it? Wasn't able to format a +RW in VR. Is that normal or do you have to change defaults to get VR formatting? The -RW was done after it initialized.

Thanks wabjxo,
Pushing the Display shows the HDD and DVD and the VR will show on the DVD. it also shows on the second screen (blue screen) as "Video" or "VR" and RAM disk shows as RAM. Did not notice the difference until I formatted a DVD-RW in VR. Now raises the question since the RAM disks shows neither (displays RAM) , what is it? Wasn't able to format a +RW in VR. Is that normal or do you have to change defaults to get VR formatting? The -RW was done after it initialized.
The RAM disc is "probably" VR but I better let someone else answer that (bobkart and nextoo already had this discussion in another "computer-oriented" thread). If you make a copy or look at the file structure on your computer, that might tell the story.

EDIT: The manual says you can manually Initialize -R for VR. -RW are auto-Initialized to VR on first use (unless you change default setting in Initial Setup/Recording) then erased if Initialized again. +RW and RAM can only be Initialized to erase their contents.

Thanks wabjxo,
Pushing the Display shows the HDD and DVD and the VR will show on the DVD. it also shows on the second screen (blue screen) as "Video" or "VR" and RAM disk shows as RAM. Did not notice the difference until I formatted a DVD-RW in VR. Now raises the question since the RAM disks shows neither (displays RAM) , what is it? Wasn't able to format a +RW in VR. Is that normal or do you have to change defaults to get VR formatting? The -RW was done after it initialized.

On Panasonics, DVD-RAM is always used in VR mode as far as I know and you don't have any option to format it otherwise. I am not sure what the other brand recorders do, but theoretically -RAM should be in VR mode since there are no benefits for -RAM(Video mode).

If you are able to record to a +RW and play it back on a dvd player without finalization it means it is probably defaulting it to some sort of a VR mode. (The +R camp manufacturers have their own +VR format). But I do not know which one Pioneer is using...

DVD-RAM will be in VR Mode always. My understanding is that VR was designed for DVD-RAM although I could be wrong, and it was adapted to DVD-RW and even DVD-R as we have seen discussed.

EDIT: 'hoops beat me to it!

Okay, pardon my lack of knowledge, but how can you tell if the copy is in VR mode? I have not used VR (purposely) have done everything in VM. I have copied a video from a Toshiba to a RAM disk then HS copy to 640 HDD.
With all this about VR mode, I still don't know what it can do that VM can't do? Ignorance must be bliss because I have done everything I want to do in Video mode. The exception may be the HS copy (above post) to -RW disks iniatalized in VR mode. Noted that I could not copy a 640 recording to RAM then to Toshiba, but worked the other way. Wondering if this was VR?

Some of the dvd players may also indicate the type of disc. For example the one i have (Panasonic S29) shows Video for commercial and finalized video-mode DVDs, and VR for -RAM and -RW(VR).

DVD-RAM will be in VR Mode always. My understanding is that VR was designed for DVD-RAM although I could be wrong, and it was adapted to DVD-RW and even DVD-R as we have seen discussed.

EDIT: 'hoops beat me to it!
thanks to wabjxo, nccahoops, and bobkart,

The RAM was new out of the box formatted on the 640 (default) so as you say must be VR. The title I tried to copy to the Toshiba was in Video mode, maybe that is why the Toshiba would not read the 640 title. Or would the 640 copy as VR even though the title was in Video? This may mean the Toshiba program that I sussfully copied to 640 was VR. (different event from first ) hope I explained that.

thanks to wabjxo, nccahoops, and bobkart,

The RAM was new out of the box formatted on the 640 (default) so as you say must be VR. The title I tried to copy to the Toshiba was in Video mode, maybe that is why the Toshiba would not read the 640 title. Or would the 640 copy as VR even though the title was in Video? This may mean the Toshiba program that I sussfully copied to 640 was VR. (different event from first ) hope I explained that.

Okay to recap, so we can collectively speculate/troubleshoot are these the steps you took?
* you recorded the program on the 640 HDD which was set to Video mode when you recorded it
* then HS-dub from the 640 to a DVD-RAM (formatted in 640)
* then attempted to read (or HS-dub?) that DVD-RAM to the Toshiba HDD and Toshiba failed to read the DVD-RAM?

(HDD= Hard Disk Drive)

Okay to recap, so we can collectively speculate/troubleshoot are these the steps you took?
* you recorded the program on the 640 HDD which was set to Video mode when you recorded it
* then HS-dub from the 640 to a DVD-RAM (formatted in 640)
* then attempted to read (or HS-dub?) that DVD-RAM to the Toshiba HDD and Toshiba failed to read the DVD-RAM?

(HDD= Hard Disk Drive)

That is correct for that attempt.
Also did this:
*recorded program in Toshiba RD XS32 (what ever their format is) HDD
*edited the program to auto chapter create (5 min)
*HS Copied to ram disk (HDD to RAM)
*HS copied from RAM to 640 HDD
* 640 reads/plays the title with the auto chapters! And edited out stuff at the end and beginning.
*And HS copy back to DVD-R in video mode (640) and finalized.

Maybe should also note that the Toshiba DVD drive has been giving me some trouble, and will burn disks "when it feels like it".

Another interesting post on VR mode!

When I first discovered the VR-mode HS copy ability, I was using my HDD in VR-mode. Was your HDD in VR mode when you tried the Disc Backup > HDD > -RW?

If it was, that "might" mean that the Disc Backup function, altho' a HS copy to the HDD, might be the "culprit" that stops the HS-copy scheme from working as expected? Hopefully, your HDD wasn't in VR-mode, which "might" be the cause with a simple solution???

Also, I started with a broadcast recording to my VR HDD, then HS copy to -R(VR), then HS "Copy" back to HDD. That's as far as I went. Maybe we need more tests like yours to see if a 2nd HS Copy from the copied-disc-now-on-the-HDD to another VR-mode disc (-R/RW) stops the process from working?

One more thing: were any of the discs you used Finalized and Video-mode...like maybe the first -R? In my original tests, I only used -R(VR) Finalized and Unfinalized.

More testing! :D


My HDD was in Video Mode when I made the disc backup, from a finalized -R disc, to HDD, then to a -RW disc, initialized in VR. ACPewty has said that there is no difference in VR and VM on the HDD, only in how you edit them, so I don't think that should matter. Someone else said that for a HDD-->DVD copy, the copy mode to the DVD was determined by what the DVD was initialized to. Then, I tried a -R disc, initialized to VR. The "disc backup" copied to the -RW, but re-initialized it to VM. It would not copy to the -R VR disc.

My other test, I thought a repeat of yours, was to HS copy from the VM HDD to a -RW disc initialized to VR, and then HS copy it back to the HDD. That worked fine. But, I still have found no way to HS copy the contents of a finalized VM disc to the HDD, in a form in which I can edit it. As I am sure you know, you CAN "back up" a -R VM, or +R disc, at HS, but you can't edit it in, or even play it from, the HDD

Further tests on the 640 and Toshiba:
Test 1
*format DVD-RW in VR mode (after initialization) in 640
* HS Copy title from 640 HDD in (VR?) mode to DVD-RW
Display says it is in VR. Title may be in VM (recorded in that mode)
* put in Toshiba to read. Message= “Disk may not be formatted”

Test 2
*format a blank DVD-RW in Toshiba
*Insert disk in 640
*select copy- pick title- (“next” orange-grayed out) selected
= “Please load a recordable disk”

Surmised that RAM must be the common denominator for compatible copy.

but may not be able to copy from 640 to Toshiba
(have copied from Toshiba to 640 with RAM disk)

ACPewty has said that there is no difference in VR and VM on the HDD, only in how you edit them, so I don't think that should matter. Someone else said that for a HDD-->DVD copy, the copy mode to the DVD was determined by what the DVD was initialized to.Agreed. The type of target disc (Video or VR) determines the type of copy. However, I was surprised today...turns out there is a slight difference in HDD Recording Formats. The only differences I can see between the HDD Recording Format settings (other than determining what the default editing mode is) are:

1) Video Mode = On gives improved resolution for manual speeds MN9 to MN15 (pg 124). I have not confirmed this, but I have confirmed there is a difference at these bitrates regarding high-speed copying...see difference #2.

2) When HDD Recording Format is set to Video Mode Off, titles recorded using low bitrates (MN9 to MN15) cannot be high-speed copied to a Video mode disc. (Must use a VR mode DVD-R/-RW or DVD-RAM) However, if recorded using HDD Recording Format = Video Mode On, you can high-speed copy to a Video Mode DVD. (I tested and confirmed this using MN9 bitrate recordings with both settings: Video Mode On and Off.)

3) Video Mode Off records bilingual broadcasts of both audio channels. (With Video Mode on you have to make a selection.)

The other differences in the manual regarding the inability to high-speed copy recordings made when the HDD Recording Format: Video Mode = Off (presumably regardless of bitrate chosen) are wrong. The documentation on page 115 regarding the HDD Recording Format seems to only apply to bitrates of MN9 to MN15 with Video Mode = Off. For recordings of MN16 or higher, regardless of which HDD Recording Format you used to record to the HDD, you can high-speed copy to Video Mode or VR mode DVDs, and you have a choice of editing styles: Frame Accurate (VR) or Video Mode although you will lose frame accuracy and edit points may move if you copy to a Video mode DVD.

So, for all intents and purposes, you should use HDD Recording Format: Video Mode = ON for better resolutions at lower bitrates (MN9-MN15) and in order to keep the ability to high-speed copy regardless of bitrate. Unless you want to record both audio channels for SAP, I see no apparent reason to ever use HDD Recording Format = Video Mode Off. With Video Mode = On you can still get frame accurate editing and high-speed copy to Video or VR mode DVD.

Hi all -

So far I have been doing all of my editing (cutting out commercials, splitting recordings) directly in the HDD and not in a copylist before burning to DVD.

I've read here that this causes fragmentation on the HDD. I am not too familiar with fragmentation (other than knowing it's a negative thing that can reduce the capacity & longevity of the hard disk).

Can someone explain it for me and tell me if I am doing my HDD any real harm by editing directly on it?

Is it just as easy to edit in the copylist? I tried once and kind of got a bit lost (didn't seem to be the same as it was in the HDD) and just gave up. :confused:

Also, are all of our copylists kept until deleted, or are they only kept temporarily until the DVD is burned - then lost? I haven't really had the time to look into this more.

Thanks very much everyone!

Hi all -

So far I have been doing all of my editing (cutting out commercials, splitting recordings) directly in the HDD and not in a copylist before burning to DVD.

I've read here that this causes fragmentation on the HDD. I am not too familiar with fragmentation (other than knowing it's a negative thing that can reduce the capacity & longevity of the hard disk).

Can someone explain it for me and tell me if I am doing my HDD any real harm by editing directly on it?

Is it just as easy to edit in the copylist? I tried once and kind of got a bit lost (didn't seem to be the same as it was in the HDD) and just gave up. :confused:

Also, are all of our copylists kept until deleted, or are they only kept temporarily until the DVD is burned - then lost? I haven't really had the time to look into this more.

Thanks very much everyone!You can only have one copy list at a time on the 640.

Using the copy list editing is almost identical to editing on the HDD, except it does not permanently change the titles, and it does not fragment the HDD as much as editing the original titles. If you keep your HDD fairly empty, then no big deal. Just run the HDD optimization on the Disk Setup menu once in a while. That defragments the HDD for you, but takes quite a while and much longer (hours) if you have lots of programs on the HDD. Better to do it when empty or close to it.

Also, are all of our copylists kept until deleted, or are they only kept temporarily until the DVD is burned - then lost? I haven't really had the time to look into this more.
Just like a computer HDD, the "original" recording is on the HDD and any edits/changes you make to it are also stored on the HDD as long as the original remains.

Editing on a virtual copy in the Copy List stores the edit data only as long as the Copy List remains, which is one reason you can only store one at a time...that storage is temporary and goes with the Copy List edit file. This is the same as Saving a web page to hour computer HDD. The page is saved, as well as a folder with all the pics and stuff that are inserted in the page. When you delete just the web-page file, the folder for pics etc. disappears from the HDD (is deleted, along with the web page file.

Further tests on the 640 and Toshiba:
Test 1
*format DVD-RW in VR mode (after initialization) in 640
* HS Copy title from 640 HDD in (VR?) mode to DVD-RW
Display says it is in VR. Title may be in VM (recorded in that mode)
* put in Toshiba to read. Message= “Disk may not be formatted”

Test 2
*format a blank DVD-RW in Toshiba
*Insert disk in 640
*select copy- pick title- (“next” orange-grayed out) selected
= “Please load a recordable disk”

Surmised that RAM must be the common denominator for compatible copy.

but may not be able to copy from 640 to Toshiba
(have copied from Toshiba to 640 with RAM disk)

Interesting! I did not read all your posts, so you may have mentioned this already: Did you try transferring files between them with the same scenarios but without using HS Copy? This would establish whether the problem is related to HS-Copy or something more general...

Interesting! I did not read all your posts, so you may have mentioned this already: Did you try transferring files between them with the same scenarios but without using HS Copy? This would establish whether the problem is related to HS-Copy or something more general...

Post #1191 is the only success I have between the two. Seems that the Toshiba does not want to read disks from the 640. The successful transfer was in HS copy. Will try the real time copy to RAM to see if Toshiba will read that. Reason for transfer was to see if I could take advantage of Toshiba editing features. Real time copy makes that less desirable

Post #1191 is the only success I have between the two. Seems that the Toshiba does not want to read disks from the 640. The successful transfer was in HS copy. Will try the real time copy to RAM to see if Toshiba will read that. Reason for transfer was to see if I could take advantage of Toshiba editing features. Real time copy makes that less desirable
Try your Test 1 with a -RW initialized for Video-mode. (Change Initial Setup setting for -RW Auto-Initialization first?)

It might be interesting to see the results?

Try your Test 1 with a -RW initialized for Video-mode. (Change Initial Setup setting for -RW Auto-Initialization first?)

It might be interesting to see the results?

Put a DVD-RW that was made with 640 (initialized in VM-default at start)
Toshiba: "Disk not recognized..." asks if I want to format.

took my original RAM disk that transferred from the Toshiba: to 640
*DVD - Disk navigator displays the title.
*menu- edit- title- (changed lettering) - OK ="could not edit"
had to exit without saving.
in the successuf transfer before I HS copied back to 640 HDD without editing

Looks like a one way street.

So I finally used manual recording mode...do I take it that every time I want to use it, I have to turn Manual Recording ON in Initial Settings for the manual recording speeds to appear in the recording mode box in the details section of the timer recording screen? And if I leave manual recording ON all the time, I will never see SP in the menus again (have to get used to seeing MN21)?

So I finally used manual recording mode...do I take it that every time I want to use it, I have to turn Manual Recording ON in Initial Settings for the manual recording speeds to appear in the recording mode box in the details section of the timer recording screen? And if I leave manual recording ON all the time, I will never see SP in the menus again (have to get used to seeing MN21)?

You can select SP recording AND all the other MN speeds too! It will default record to whatever you set in the setup. (you have 21? same as SP ) You can even select the speed from the under the cover REC MODE and hit enter to select any MN speed you want from a manual record mode. You may want to have some explain it to you, I'm not very good at instructions.

Wow voranis, you are doing some serious multitask recording. :eek: How do you find time to watch it all, or is it maybe a business...maybe just preparing for retirement? ;)

I don't find time to watch it all--I have quite a backlog. It's not a business, either, although Pioneer did ask me if it was a "production system" when I talked to them once. "Preparing for retirement" sounds good. :)

I was recording a program on the 640 last night that was an hour long. I suddenly realized I wanted to record a two-hour special that followed the one hour program. It was four minutes before the first program ended, and the other 640 was full and thus there was not enough time to move a one-hour program off the other 640 to DVD. There were 10 minutes remaining on the first 640. So...I extended the recording on the first 640 by two hours (even though there was not enough HDD space left). In 5 of the 10 minutes left, I moved a one-hour recording to DVD, then erased the space. That left me with over an hour of recording time left to move something else to DVD and free that space, and thus I was able to keep freeing disk space until I had enough for the full three hours.

You can select SP recording AND all the other MN speeds too! It will default record to whatever you set in the setup. (you have 21? same as SP ) You can even select the speed from the under the cover REC MODE and hit enter to select any MN speed you want from a manual record mode. You may want to have some explain it to you, I'm not very good at instructions.

Just tried it...I see now. MN21 was the default, but SP, EP, etc. are still available. The default setting must be configured from the screen that popped up when I turned manual recording mode ON. I was afraid to change anything on that screen the first time because I thought it was some sort of screen to allow customizing the bit rates associated with the names (MN1, MN2, etc.), and I didn't want to screw up the defaults. I see now that must have been the screen that lets you pick what the default setting in the menus will be.

So I finally used manual recording mode...do I take it that every time I want to use it, I have to turn Manual Recording ON in Initial Settings for the manual recording speeds to appear in the recording mode box in the details section of the timer recording screen? And if I leave manual recording ON all the time, I will never see SP in the menus again (have to get used to seeing MN21)?
Generally, when you first CHANGE a non-timer recording to a mode other than the default SP, the next non-timer recording will start at that last setting when you press the Rec Mode button. Depending on where you start and where you want to go will determine which buttons to press. On first try, and assuming you start on SP, press Rec Mode button or left/right arrows until you get to any other setting, incl. MN speeds.

Once in MN speeds...or if you start in MN speeds...and just want to "ratchet" up or down to another MN speed, use the left/right arrows. If, instead, you want to quickly get out of MN speeds and go directly to one of the "normal" speeds (XP, SP, etc.), press the Rec Mode button (saves lots of arrow time).

Generally, when you first CHANGE a non-timer recording to a mode other than the default SP, the next non-timer recording will start at that last setting when you press the Rec Mode button. Depending on where you start and where you want to go will determine which buttons to press. On first try, and assuming you start on SP, press Rec Mode button or left/right arrows until you get to any other setting, incl. MN speeds.

Once in MN speeds...or if you start in MN speeds...and just want to "ratchet" up or down to another MN speed, use the left/right arrows. If, instead, you want to quickly get out of MN speeds and go directly to one of the "normal" speeds (XP, SP, etc.), press the Rec Mode button (saves lots of arrow time).

I was doing a timer recording, but this is useful to know too. When I turned Manual Recording Mode ON, the default recording mode changed in the timer recording screen to MN21. I know this is equivalent to SP, but I would prefer to see SP rather than trying to remember that MN21 == SP. I was concerned once you are in manual recording mode ON, only MN* speeds were available to select. Now I know I can arrow left and SP and the others are there. And probably I can go back to the screen that comes up when I turned manual recording mode ON and select SP to be the default that shows up in the timer recording menu.

I was doing a timer recording, but this is useful to know too. When I turned Manual Recording Mode ON, the default recording mode changed in the timer recording screen to MN21. I know this is equivalent to SP, but I would prefer to see SP rather than trying to remember that MN21 == SP. I was concerned once you are in manual recording mode ON, only MN* speeds were available to select. Now I know I can arrow left and SP and the others are there. And probably I can go back to the screen that comes up when I turned manual recording mode ON and select SP to be the default that shows up in the timer recording menu.
In a Timer Rec setup, the mode box will start at whatever last "odd" mode you used in a manual rec. If you haven't ever changed that, you "should" start at SP. But, you're right, just arrowing left/right gets you from the last "odd" speed you might have set to XP, SP, etc.

In fact, that brings up a good point to remember...if you ever set a manual Rec Mode to anything other than SP, and actually record something at that mode, that will be the speed your next Timer Rec program records at unless you go into the "Set Detailed" box and change it ('cause that's where it'll start...I guess they assumed you "liked" that speed). So, always good to check Rec Mode instead of ass-u-me-ing!?

I don't find time to watch it all--I have quite a backlog. It's not a business, either, although Pioneer did ask me if it was a "production system" when I talked to them once. "Preparing for retirement" sounds good. :)

I was recording a program on the 640 last night that was an hour long. I suddenly realized I wanted to record a two-hour special that followed the one hour program. It was four minutes before the first program ended, and the other 640 was full and thus there was not enough time to move a one-hour program off the other 640 to DVD. There were 10 minutes remaining on the first 640. So...I extended the recording on the first 640 by two hours (even though there was not enough HDD space left). In 5 of the 10 minutes left, I moved a one-hour recording to DVD, then erased the space. That left me with over an hour of recording time left to move something else to DVD and free that space, and thus I was able to keep freeing disk space until I had enough for the full three hours.LOL...Even with all those DVDRs you've still got em all smokin! And they say there's never anything good on TV! :D

BTW, yes just leave manual recording on all the time. It just adds more options to the list of recording bitrates. If you go in using the Initial Setup menu and set the manual bitrate, the 640 will default to that bitrate only until the next time you change the default using the REC MODE button.

Just keep an eye on your timer event bitrates if you are fiddling with the REC MODE button. I'm not sure about this, but I could've sworn that last week one of my timer events recorded at SP after I set it for MN23. (The 2005 models had a bug where if you set timer events with MN bitrates and then before the event you changed the manual recording speed using the REC MODE button, it messed up the timer event bitrates.) I did a quick test for that problem on the 640, but it passed the test...no problem with bitrate. Again, I'm not 100% positive last week's incorrect bitrate wasn't my fault, but I'm watching it closely for a while.

In a Timer Rec setup, the mode box will start at whatever last "odd" mode you used in a manual rec. If you haven't ever changed that, you "should" start at SP. But, you're right, just arrowing left/right gets you from the last "odd" speed you might have set to XP, SP, etc.

In fact, that brings up a good point to remember...if you ever set a manual Rec Mode to anything other than SP, and actually record something at that mode, that will be the speed your next Timer Rec program records at unless you go into the "Set Detailed" box and change it ('cause that's where it'll start...I guess they assumed you "liked" that speed). So, always good to check Rec Mode instead of ass-u-me-ing!?

Yes, I went back to the screen that pops up when I turned Manual Recording mode ON, and it appears to be what I originally thought it was--a screen to let me customize the bit rates. I had hoped after reading some of the posts here that maybe I had misunderstood what it was for and that screen was where you could configure the default recording mode, but apparently my initial impression of it was correct after all.

It would be nice if I could leave Manual Recording mode ON and somehow make SP the initial default setting in the timer recording details screen, since SP is still what I use most of the time.

Yes, I went back to the screen that pops up when I turned Manual Recording mode ON, and it appears to be what I originally thought it was--a screen to let me customize the bit rates.

It would be nice if I could leave Manual Recording mode ON and somehow make SP the initial default setting in the timer recording details screen, since SP is still what I use most of the time.You can...see my last post. Just leave on manual recording, and then use the REC MODE button to change the manual recording speed (the bitrate that will be used if you just press record) to SP. That is used as the default recording bitrate.

Yes, I went back to the screen that pops up when I turned Manual Recording mode ON, and it appears to be what I originally thought it was--a screen to let me customize the bit rates. I had hoped after reading some of the posts here that maybe I had misunderstood what it was for and that screen was where you could configure the default recording mode, but apparently my initial impression of it was correct after all.Are we talking about the same screen: Initial Setup...Recording...Manual Recording On...Setup? That is just used to set the default MN bitrate IF you select an MN bitrate. If you change the bitrate on that screen, the 640 will default to that MN bitrate, but only until you select another bitrate using REC MODE. The standard bitrates: SEP, SLP, EP, LP,SP and XP are only listed above the bar for reference. What you are setting is just the default MN bitrate.

LOL...Even with all those DVDRs you've still got em all smokin! And they say there's never anything good on TV! :D


Even with all my DVDRs, I don't have one in my office! (But if we got cable or satellite signal at our office, I probably would...)

You can...see my last post. Just leave on manual recording, and then use the REC MODE button to change the manual recording speed (the bitrate that will be used if you just press record) to SP. That is used as the default recording bitrate.

Ah ha, OK, I will try that. I take it changing the manual recording mode to ON makes MN21 (or whatever you pick on the bitrate screen) the default only temporarily, until you change it using REC MODE? OK, that makes more sense...

Are we talking about the same screen: Initial Setup...Recording...Manual Recording On...Setup? That is just used to set the default MN bitrate IF you select an MN bitrate. If you change the bitrate on that screen, the 640 will default to that MN bitrate, but only until you select another bitrate using REC MODE. The standard bitrates: SEP, SLP, EP, LP,SP and XP are only listed above the bar for reference. What you are setting is just the default MN bitrate.

Yeah, I tried it out. I found out you could only pick from the MN* rates.

That screen scared me at first. I was afraid it let the user customize the bitrates assigned to the MN levels. I was afraid I would get the default rate definitions "messed up", so I hit Enter as fast as I could without changing anything. Now I see it just lets the user pick the default manual recording rate. I should've known Pioneer wouldn't make it that easy for the user to screw something like that up...

Even with all my DVDRs, I don't have one in my office! (But if we got cable or satellite signal at our office, I probably would...)You should work out of the house...it's cheaper. ;)

I've been reading this forum for awhile, and this thread in particular recently (where I have already learned a few things), but I just signed up and this is my first post here. I've had a 520 for some time now, and like it a lot. I'm thinking of adding a 640, as it seems this may be the last real Pioneer model, and the dl + multi-mode recording features are a major draw. HD ? Well, not any time soon for me.

I recorded Orpheus too, and didn't know about the commentary track until too late. Oh, well... maybe they will run it that way again.
Yes, exact same experience, but found out too late, after it was already recorded to the dvr.

Yes, -RW discs work fine, when making HS copies in VR mode, so you can save the content, and HS copy it back to the HDD, for later use. Just make sure the -RW disc is initialized in VR. . . . Later, when other elements I want to combine with some things become available, I'll recopy the -RW content to the HDD, and make the complete -R disc I want.

I've been trying to find a way to HS copy a -R disc to HDD, and edit, before a HS copy back to disc. So, with the knowledge gained here that VR mode DVDs will HS copy to the HDD, and VR mode HDD recordings will make a HS copy to Video Mode disc, I did a "Disc Backup" from a -R disc, to the HDD, and copied it back to a -RW disc that was initialized to VR mode. Aha! I have it, I thought... Well, no. It DID copy to the -RW disc, but apparently initialized it to Video mode, so it would not HS copy back to the HDD. Then, I tried to copy the HDD Disc backup to a -R disc, initilaized to VR. It wouldn't let me, it said to use a blank disc. Oh, well, I tried!

I'm coming at this issue from a somewhat different direction. Clearly, the ability to HS copy (with no re-encode) is a huge Plus. Say you have video on the HDD of your PC, ready to burn to DVD. Is there some way to burn the DVD in VR mode to a -RW disc, on the PC ? That would open up a lot of convenience possibilities, as far as moving the content quickly and easily onto the Pioneer. (Frankly, I would rather do a lot of the basic editing or changes on the Pioneer, than using editing software on the PC . . . but that's just me.)

I did some Google searches on the subject, and found a user statement that Nero Vision Express could do this. However, I do not find this capability present in my Nero 6 Ultra (which has Nero Vision Express 2.12.something). Nor do I see any such thing in Imgburn 2. Maybe in Nero 7 ? Is there any way to do this on the PC ?

I'm coming at this issue from a somewhat different direction. Clearly, the ability to HS copy (with no re-encode) is a huge Plus. Say you have video on the HDD of your PC, ready to burn to DVD. Is there some way to burn the DVD in VR mode to a -RW disc, on the PC ? That would open up a lot of convenience possibilities, as far as moving the content quickly and easily onto the Pioneer. (Frankly, I would rather do a lot of the basic editing or changes on the Pioneer, than using editing software on the PC . . . but that's just me.)

I did some Google searches on the subject, and found a user statement that Nero Vision Express could do this. However, I do not find this capability present in my Nero 6 Ultra (which has Nero Vision Express 2.12.something). Nor do I see any such thing in Imgburn 2. Maybe in Nero 7 ? Is there any way to do this on the PC ?Welcome Seeker47.
I haven't used it myself, but here's a link (http://www.burnworld.com/dvd/primer/dvdvr.htm) describing VR mode and an authoring program. I don't know what conversion capabilities it has, but maybe it's worth a look.

I"m replying just because you quoted me. I don't know the answer to your question, as I have never made a DVD on a PC. :eek:

But, if it IS possible to do what you ask, I would think that you could also make a VR copy of a commercial disc, put that on the HDD of the 640, edit, and make more copies... that would be nice!

Hey...I've ordered mine from what I thought was a shoe company, and it should be here Friday. Just reading through some of these posts and the manual. Some questions:

If I record a baseball game in SP mode onto the hard drive (not in manual mode, because I'm not even too sure about VR and video mode) and I want to burn it to a DVD (take your pick) but it's a baseball game, 3-4 hours, and I'm trying to get it on a DVD in which recording something in sp mode directly to it would max out at about 2 hours if that....can the 640 make the game fit? I had the accurian and my only option on that was to cut out commercials and cut it down to the min. to even attempt to fit on a disc (when rec. in sp mode to the hdd). So I guess my question is will the 640 allow you to "lessen the quality" of a prerecorded hdd program to fit it on a DVD?

Another option would be to burn the game in it's original form onto a Double layer disc...which might not be that bad at all.

it's been a long day and this post may not make much sense. ignore if that's the case.

thanks!

If you want to do a high speed recording HDD-->DVD, you will have to dub it in the same rec speed as the HDD. So, either edit out the commercials, and record it to a DL disc, or do the original recording to the HDD in a speed that will fit on one SL disc.

Hey...I've ordered mine from what I thought was a shoe company, and it should be here Friday. Just reading through some of these posts and the manual. Some questions:

If I record a baseball game in SP mode onto the hard drive (not in manual mode, because I'm not even too sure about VR and video mode) and I want to burn it to a DVD (take your pick) but it's a baseball game, 3-4 hours, and I'm trying to get it on a DVD in which recording something in sp mode directly to it would max out at about 2 hours if that....can the 640 make the game fit? I had the accurian and my only option on that was to cut out commercials and cut it down to the min. to even attempt to fit on a disc (when rec. in sp mode to the hdd). So I guess my question is will the 640 allow you to "lessen the quality" of a prerecorded hdd program to fit it on a DVD?

Another option would be to burn the game in it's original form onto a Double layer disc...which might not be that bad at all.

it's been a long day and this post may not make much sense. ignore if that's the case.

thanks!
Probably the best way to record a long baseball game would be to use SP mode to get it on the HDD. (There is an "AUTO" mode that would put it on the HDD in a quality that would fit on a DVD, but then you're STARTING with a reduced quality.)

Once on the HDD, then you could decide on quality and high-speed, etc, after more experience with what quality you can stand...esp. for a fast-action sport since you CAN record baseball and football games in LP and it's OK but not great 'cause the moving edges are slightly "rough."

Once you know your "quality" tolerance for recorded sports action, you could decide whether you want the game Copied in the same high SP quality so you'd need two SL DVDs or one DL or you could stand a reduced-quality speed.

Once on the HDD in great quality (SP), you could edit out commercials to reduce the length and retain quality in a HS copy. OR...if you find you can stand a reduced quality and you don't want to cut the commercials, you could then decide to use the "Optimize" Copy mode, which is the same as the "AUTO" Record mode except it will fit whatever you're copying on a DVD, obviously at whatever/reduced quality based on the length of the program. But, at least, you retain top quality up to the point of Copying, when you can decide if the game is sharp or soft already and whether you need to preserve that quality or can stand a little degradation???

I found that football is probably the "worst" fast-action for LP, altho' it's "tolerable" to me, but maybe not someone else. Baseball might be a little sharper-edged since the players don't move as much, no field lines, no numbers on backs, etc. that tend to get "rough" like when a camera is panning/following a wide receiver down the field.

Another option would be to burn the game in it's original form onto a Double layer disc...which might not be that bad at all.

If it was something you cherished to save, I would take out the commercials and see how long it is and if anything, Divide it. I did that and have no problem with having two discs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/urlee/TwoCents.jpg

Hey, what year and mint are those "wheat" pennies? You might have enough in your "two-cents worth" to buy that other 640 you've been thinking about!?

Thanks for the link. This looks to be from the company that puts out the PowerDVD player. I'd need to see more info (and user reports) before shelling out what they're asking for on this. The feature list for Nero 7 mentions VR support, but the description seemed ambiguous to me, as to whether this might be more than Read support.

Probably the best way to record a long baseball game would be to use SP mode to get it on the HDD. (There is an "AUTO" mode that would put it on the HDD in a quality that would fit on a DVD, but then you're STARTING with a reduced quality.)

Once on the HDD, then you could decide on quality and high-speed, etc, after more experience with what quality you can stand...esp. for a fast-action sport since you CAN record baseball and football games in LP and it's OK but not great 'cause the moving edges are slightly "rough."

Once you know your "quality" tolerance for recorded sports action, you could decide whether you want the game Copied in the same high SP quality so you'd need two SL DVDs or one DL or you could stand a reduced-quality speed.

Once on the HDD in great quality (SP), you could edit out commercials to reduce the length and retain quality in a HS copy. OR...if you find you can stand a reduced quality and you don't want to cut the commercials, you could then decide to use the "Optimize" Copy mode, which is the same as the "AUTO" Record mode except it will fit whatever you're copying on a DVD, obviously at whatever/reduced quality based on the length of the program. But, at least, you retain top quality up to the point of Copying, when you can decide if the game is sharp or soft already and whether you need to preserve that quality or can stand a little degradation???

I found that football is probably the "worst" fast-action for LP, altho' it's "tolerable" to me, but maybe not someone else. Baseball might be a little sharper-edged since the players don't move as much, no field lines, no numbers on backs, etc. that tend to get "rough" like when a camera is panning/following a wide receiver down the field.

thanks...that's the info I was looking for. it's just nice to know that if needed, i can use the optimize feature if I want something on one disc. i'll be using this thing mostly for the HDD, but occasionaly I'm sure I'll want to save some of those recordings in a tangible form.

thanks...that's the info I was looking for. it's just nice to know that if needed, i can use the optimize feature if I want something on one disc. i'll be using this thing mostly for the HDD, but occasionaly I'm sure I'll want to save some of those recordings in a tangible form.


Just be warned that if you copy to HDD in SP, and later decide to use an extended record mode, like LP, for the disc, you will have to do a real-time copy, it won't do high speed when changing recording speeds. I suggest you try some sample recording. Dub a play to the HDD in SP, and then in LP. If the LP looks acceptable to you, dub the tapes to the HDD in LP, or the appropriate MN#, and then you can do a HS copy to disc. I wouldn't want my DVDR tied up for 3-4 hours, twice, for each tape!

Yes, I believe for the most part VR-Mode = Frame accurate editing. To use frame accurate editing in the copy list, your target DVD should be in VR-Mode. As soon as you select VR Mode, you get frame accurate editing in the copy list.

I'm getting ready to try some frame-accurate editing on the 640. Frame-accurate editing in the copy list on the 640 is only possible when the target DVD is in VR-mode, right? I know on the 520 I can do frame-accurate editing in the copy list even for video mode DVDs (and since I use frame-accurate editing only to cleanly trim the beginning and end of the titles, I haven't noticed any edit points shifting on the resulting DVD, since I don't have any edit points, I guess).

I'm getting ready to try some frame-accurate editing on the 640. Frame-accurate editing in the copy list on the 640 is only possible when the target DVD is in VR-mode, right? I know on the 520 I can do frame-accurate editing in the copy list even for video mode DVDs (and since I use frame-accurate editing only to cleanly trim the beginning and end of the titles, I haven't noticed any edit points shifting on the resulting DVD, since I don't have any edit points, I guess).
Depends on which "procedure" you use in Copying.

If you first insert a VR-mode disc, the machine will only do Frame-Accurate edits since it senses the disc type during the "Loading" process. You'll obviously "confrim" this on your first edit.

If, on the other hand, you don't load a disc in advance, you'll get the choice (among others) to do VR-mode or Video-mode editing. If you choose VR-mode and make your edits in the Copy List, THEN load a Video-mode disc, the machine will tell you it's the wrong disc type, please load a VR-mode disc.

Depends on which "procedure" you use in Copying.

If you first insert a VR-mode disc, the machine will only do Frame-Accurate edits since it senses the disc type during the "Loading" process. You'll obviously "confrim" this on your first edit.

If, on the other hand, you don't load a disc in advance, you'll get the choice (among others) to do VR-mode or Video-mode editing. If you choose VR-mode and make your edits in the Copy List, THEN load a Video-mode disc, the machine will tell you it's the wrong disc type, please load a VR-mode disc.

Thanks. I was wondering why I never got "the choice" when I edit the copy list, as has been mentioned here in the past--I guess it's because I always put the blank DVD-R disc in first and the unit is assuming "video mode" because of the disc.

Another improvement with the 640 over the 520 seems to be that you can initialize DVD-Rs to VR mode in addition to being able to initialize DVD-RWs to VR mode. The 520 manual says only DVD-RWs can be initialized to VR mode.

The 520 manual says only DVD-RWs can be initialized to VR mode.
Have you tried to Initialize a -R disc to VR-mode in the 520?

I've learned not to trust the Pio manuals on many things...try everything for yourself if it's something you might need to do...or just think might be "neat"! :)

How to make pioneer recorder 640 region free?
Is there a FW to do it?
Wotam

You can find "region-free 640s" for sale on the internet, but so far haven't heard of any FW or other "trick" to make a standard 640 region-free.

Anyone?

Thanks. If you find something please post here.I do the same.I need so much.

Wotam

Here's one region-free PAL/NTSC 250GB HDD unit I found (http://www.220-electronics.com/dvdrecorders/pioneer640.htm)...sort of a hybrid...a European 630/640 with NTSC tuner, etc. "re-engineered" for use in the U.S.? Several similar "re-engineering" companies do the same for Lite-on recorders.

Check out the bottom of the linked page where it list a "Power Cord with Euro/Asian Schuko Plug" and suggestion that you may need another adapter for certain countries...what's a "Euro/Asian Schuko" plug???

I know that this has been discussed before. I did go back and researched the "copy-protected areas" problem that has come up before with Directv tuners. One person had the problem during football games as i recall. In my case, I had to install a new HD tuner from D* and I did not have the problem prior to the replacement of my old RCA DT210, but now with the new D* tuner which is the H20 model, the copy protected problem even happens on the beginning of my wifes soaps which are on the satellite local channels. I could understand if it was from the local digital HD feeds (in my case channel 5-1), but don't understand from the other non-HD feeds. After confirming with D* that the H20 came out alittle too early and isn't ready for prime time yet, but they aren't familiar with my Recorder and thus can't help. So the bottom line is, could it really be the H20 causing the problem?

I know that this has been discussed before. I did go back and researched the "copy-protected areas" problem that has come up before with Directv tuners. One person had the problem during football games as i recall. In my case, I had to install a new HD tuner from D* and I did not have the problem prior to the replacement of my old RCA DT210, but now with the new D* tuner which is the H20 model, the copy protected problem even happens on the beginning of my wifes soaps which are on the satellite local channels. I could understand if it was from the local digital HD feeds (in my case channel 5-1), but don't understand from the other non-HD feeds. After confirming with D* that the H20 came out alittle too early and isn't ready for prime time yet, but they aren't familiar with my Recorder and thus can't help. So the bottom line is, could it really be the H20 causing the problem?Probably, although I would be surprised if the H20 was actually adding copy-protection information to the signal. The 640 is just responding to the copyright information encoded in the signal. (It's just doing what it's told.) I have no problem recording anything with my 640 from Canadian satellite, which has no copy-protection codes embedded in the signal.

I know that this has been discussed before. I did go back and researched the "copy-protected areas" problem that has come up before with Directv tuners. One person had the problem during football games as i recall. In my case, I had to install a new HD tuner from D* and I did not have the problem prior to the replacement of my old RCA DT210, but now with the new D* tuner which is the H20 model, the copy protected problem even happens on the beginning of my wifes soaps which are on the satellite local channels. I could understand if it was from the local digital HD feeds (in my case channel 5-1), but don't understand from the other non-HD feeds. After confirming with D* that the H20 came out alittle too early and isn't ready for prime time yet, but they aren't familiar with my Recorder and thus can't help. So the bottom line is, could it really be the H20 causing the problem?
Your situation might be a good one to try setting your HDD Recording mode to Video Mode Off (VR-mode). See if that eliminates or helps the "protection" problem. (You shouldn't suffer any ill effects from setting your HDD to VR-mode.)

Hey, what year and mint are those "wheat" pennies? You might have enough in your "two-cents worth" to buy that other 640 you've been thinking about!?

"LOL"
You gave me an idea to take a picture of the 1943 "silver" one I have and make up an original?
Thanks.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v94/urlee/2Cents.gif

Urlee, your "Two Cents Worth" are in Xfine shape! They gotta be worth a new 640!?

Your situation might be a good one to try setting your HDD Recording mode to Video Mode Off (VR-mode). See if that eliminates or helps the "protection" problem. (You shouldn't suffer any ill effects from setting your HDD to VR-mode.)


I'll try that tonight. Not sure what default settings i have the machine sit on.

PS. I like the idea of buying another 640 to just sit around for the future. I've had mine now since summer time, and to be honest, i figured i would use it more, but my wife is the clear winner for this machine. She is recording like crazy. (and yes, she does work 40 hours/week still as a nurse).

Steve

I decided to play around with PhotoViewer (PV)...pretty cool! :cool:
Hope this helps others who haven't tried PV yet. :)

TEST #1 - COPY PHOTOS FROM USB DEVICE
1.5GB, 581 JPG Files in 28 Folders, File Size from 55K to 4,500K
On 4 GB SimpleTECH USB v2.0 Flash Drive (FD)

Selected PhotoViewer in Home Menu.
Inserted FD in USB IN port on front of 640.

Four PV options appeared (numbers for ref. only):
1. View/Edit Photos on the HDD
2. View Photos on a CD/DVD
3. View Photos on a USB Device
4. Copy Photos from a USB Device

Chose #4, which brought up dialog asking if I wanted to copy ALL the pics on the USB device, with Yes and Cancel (selected). Selected Yes.

Took ~42 min. to copy all folder and files, 1.5GB. It found ONLY *.jpg files and ignored any other file types, and it found those files in whatever folder they resided, i.e., searched the folders and copied any and all JPG files it found. It retained the same folder/file structure as on the FD, including names.

TEST #2 - VIEW PHOTOS ON USB DEVICE
Same 1.5GB of Files as Test #1 on Same 4GB FD

Tried this to see if I could "custom-select" the folder and pics from my 1.5GB of pic files (since Test #1 gives you no option to do so...it copies EVERY JPG file it can find on the attached device.

Selected Option 3 in PV menu, View Photos...

Timed out twice, once at ~18 min. and once at ~19 min.

Not sure why it timed out twice...progress menu just goes away. Could be too big for "View" process, or because all those pics are already on the HDD, or limitation on size for the location the pics are stored (where?...they don't show up on Disc Nav), or ???

RETESTED "VIEW" OPTION: Worked fine for diff. FD with 6 Folders, 76 JPG pics, ~10MB total. Contents/selection screen popped up after only 1-2 min. Pressing ENTER opens menu for Slideshow, Copy to HDD (selectively), Folder Options, etc.

TEST #3 - SLIDESHOW

Selected Option 1 in PV menu, View/Edit Photos on the HDD.

Selected one of folders on left side, pressed PLAY, slideshow started for pics in that folder.

Took ~30 sec for 1st pic to be "painted" on 51" screen, top to bottom, held pic for 30 sec, 2nd and all subsequent pics popped up full-screen and stayed on screen 30 sec.

You can "force" the previous or next pic by pressing PREV or NEXT (<< or >>) buttons, but then each pic takes ~7 sec to full screen.

Pressed STOP to go back to folder/pic selection screen. RETURN button also works.

Selected next folder and pressed PLAY, and 1st pic came up full-screen in 3 sec.

WARNING: PUTTING YOUR PHOTOS ON THE 640 AND SHOWING THEM ON A LARGE SCREEN CAN BE HAZARDOUS TO YOUR SELF-ESTEEM ... ESPECIALLY IF SOMEONE IN YOUR HOUSE FINDS THE ZOOM BUTTON!

NOTES:
(1) Timer recordings can't start if you're in PhotoViewer, and you can't get into Photviewer while recording on HDD.

(2) Once showing a pic, you can Zoom 2X and 4X with ENTER button, and pan L/R/Up/Down with arrow keys. (Showed my Auntie Mabel's warts really good!)

(3) One folder with low-res (24 - 37K) JPG pics from a camera phone "did not compute." Each thumbnail was black with a yellow triangle and exclamation point. Playing those showed only a black screen.

Wabjxo,

You did a terrific job there!
Thanks so much for the info and steps which is easy to follow.

Urlee

Boy is this embarrassing! :eek: After I have repeatedly mentioned that the 640 will not play PAL discs, I have just discovered that to be incorrect. The unit seemed to reject the first PAL disc that I gave it shortly after I purchased the unit. I guess I jumped to conclusions. However, I decided to try a some more PAL discs recently and there was success. Sorry about that!

Tested the final element of the 640's "Media Center" features, the Jukebox.

COPYING MUSIC TO HDD - "BEST" 3 METHODS

1. One-Touch Copy from Standard Music CD

Played CD, pressed "One-Touch Copy" button.

CD copied to Jukebox in real-time.

2. Normal "Copy" from Standard Music CD

Copied CD via HOME MENU > COPY > DVD/CD TO HDD > ENTER.

Music played and copied to HDD in real-time.

3. High-Speed Copy - WMA or MP3 Files Only

Ripped commercial CD, 17 songs, 71.2MB, 77 minutes, using Windows Media Player. Files converted from *.cda to *.wma.

Copied *.wma files to 4GB SimpleTECH USB v2.0 Flash Drive (FD).

Inserted FD in USB In port on front of 640, pressed HOME MENU > JUKEBOX > "Listen to Music from USB Device > Copy Album (in command menu panel at right) > "Yes" to confirm.

Took ~4 min. to copy the 77 min. of music.


LISTEN TO MUSIC - COPY CAN ALSO BE DONE FROM THESE MENU OPTIONS
The 640 "senses" the source, so the source must be loaded to get the "Copy" option.

To play music in Jukebox, three options, each with side command menu for Copying, Editing, etc.:

1. Listen to Music/Edit - Music copied from standard music CDs resides here.

2. Listen to Music (WMA/MP3)/Edit - WMA and MP3 music copied from USB or CD resides here.

3. Listen to Music from USB Device - Music on external USB device currently attached. (This is method I used above for 3. High-Speed Copy.)

There are PLAY MODE options for setting certain albums to play, etc.

does it tell you or let you choose the levels of compression on MP3's? like the bit rate, etc.?

I don't have any MP3 music, so didn't check that. It seems to be pretty much an "automatic" copy...I didn't have any choices in audio quality in my tests with commercial CDs and WMAs from my computer. Basically, you just load a source, it senses that source, you click that source/option, and answer "Yes" to "Copy" question.

Help!
My TV went out and won't be fixed for a week or two (or more) The small TV does not have anything but coax or antenna input. Not wanting to move the recorder and all the hookup wires -I have a repeat manual program I would like to erase (delete) the only program set at this time.
Not having that good a memory what are the exact keystrokes I need to delete the recorder program?
I can get to navigator "copy" (indicated on unit) but no "timer" menu shows on the display. (next up?) may be difficult since the only indication will be it does not record on the set time. help appreciated.

First, turn 640 OFF...HOME MENU remembers last starting point, but resets to top-left menu item when you turn 640 off...then you can turn 640 on again...wait ~10 sec to allow HDD to spin down (prevents overspin on startup)... and use the following:

HOME MENU
ARROW DOWN 1X
ENTER
ENTER
ARROW UP 1X
ARROW RIGHT 1X
ARROW DOWN 1X
ENTER
ARROW LEFT 1X
ENTER

Hi All,

I just purchased a 640 after having used my friend’s 633 and have a question:

To make this easy I’ll use a simple scenario: Let’s say I record (on the HDD) five cartoons with an ad at the beginning and end of each cartoon. Each cartoon is recorded separately so that each cartoon is a separate title. Now I go to each cartoon separately and edit out the beginning and end ads (I do this in the video mode). So now I have five separate titles or cartoons that I’ve edited. Next I go to the main menu and select HDD -> DVD for recording. Then I create a playlist. Now here’s my question… at the point where I’m creating a playlist a message pops up indicting that if I use high speed dubbing my edit points may shift slightly from what I’ve created. How is that possible? Aren’t the edited commercial segments gone? In the manual (page 68) it says that when using Video Mode the edit points are preserved in a high-speed copy. Yet every time I try to create a playlist and add another title (cartoon) it pops up with this annoying message that my edits points may shift? Do they shift? Why does this message show up?

Thanks, Bob

Hi All,

I just purchased a 640 after having used my friend’s 633 and have a question:

To make this easy I’ll use a simple scenario: Let’s say I record (on the HDD) five cartoons with an ad at the beginning and end of each cartoon. Each cartoon is recorded separately so that each cartoon is a separate title. Now I go to each cartoon separately and edit out the beginning and end ads (I do this in the video mode). So now I have five separate titles or cartoons that I’ve edited. Next I go to the main menu and select HDD -> DVD for recording. Then I create a playlist. Now here’s my question… at the point where I’m creating a playlist a message pops up indicting that if I use high speed dubbing my edit points may shift slightly from what I’ve created. How is that possible? Aren’t the edited commercial segments gone? In the manual (page 68) it says that when using Video Mode the edit points are preserved in a high-speed copy. Yet every time I try to create a playlist and add another title (cartoon) it pops up with this annoying message that my edits points may shift? Do they shift? Why does this message show up?

Thanks, BobWhen you copy to a video mode DVD, frame accuracy is lost unless you edited at exactly frames 00 or 15, which is what video mode editing forces. When copying to a VR mode DVD, it can keep the frame accuracy. There is much more discussion regarding Video mode/VR mode, frame accuracy and playback pauses a few pages back. Take a look at posts 1055, 1062 etc on page 36 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=683581&page=36&pp=30).

First, turn 640 OFF...HOME MENU remembers last starting point, but resets to top-left menu item when you turn 640 off...then you can turn 640 on again...wait ~10 sec to allow HDD to spin down (prevents overspin on startup)... and use the following:

HOME MENU
ARROW DOWN 1X
ENTER
ENTER
ARROW UP 1X
ARROW RIGHT 1X
ARROW DOWN 1X
ENTER
ARROW LEFT 1X
ENTER

Thanks wabjxo!

I think it worked because the red indicator above R went out on the last enter.
Now I won't have two weeks (or more) of recordings when the TV comes back.
TUVM! :D