Hey,
Just wondering how these drivers would compare with the Dayton RS line of drivers in quality? Pricing is close so it is pretty much a toss-up. The color of hi-vi's drivers is intriguing however, also different than your typical Dayton RS project...Any thoughts?

These http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-441&DID=7
are the bass drivers I had in mind. I have no idea what tweeter to use as of yet. Any suggestions would be much appreciated! I am aiming for a 40hz tune to elimininate need for a sub

Ok, read through a little bit of the Modula MTM design thread over at HT guide and to say im lost would be an understatement :) For a first crack at this, maybe the Modula MT would better match my skill-level. I do have 1 question however, I can't find the SD spec for the Dayton RS180s-8 7" driver, does anyone know what it is or where I could find this?

I have Two Dayton DA175 7" drivers sitting here screaming "blast me!".

Single driver tuned to 40hz in a ~.82cu.ft. enclosure, things are looking good so far. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/VBResponseDaytonDa175-87Vented.gif
Here is in a .50cu.ft enclosure. It gets rid of the the peak around 45hz.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/VBResponseDaytonDa175-8714l.gif

Tuned to 50hz in a 14L enclosure
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/VBResponseDaytonDa175-8750hz14l.gif

What would be the more musical choice of these graphs posted above?

Edit: I am noticing that this driver has a relatively low sensitivity. Does the sensitivity of the bass driver itself ultimately tell us the sensitivy of the entire system?

Edit: Question answered.

Okay. I've decided to go with the Natalie P's tuned to 40hz w/ dayton RS28A tweeter. I'll post back with some progress.

Good call on the Natalie Ps. I have heard great things.

I built a pair of the MTs myself and have been very pleased.

Why the 40Hz tuning though?

Well mostly to keep as much clean bass in the mains as possible for a lower crossover point, and if I do decide to use a sub it'd be crossed over low enough as not to be localized.

Well mostly to keep as much clean bass in the mains as possible for a lower crossover point, and if I do decide to use a sub it'd be crossed over low enough as not to be localized.

Righto.

WillD...were infering that I should go with an even lower tune than 40hz? I am open for options. Haven't started building yet.

WillD...were infering that I should go with an even lower tune than 40hz? I am open for options. Haven't started building yet.

Well, sort-of. Seeing as it is DIY, it is entirely up to you (as it should be). :)

However, the design at HTguide is a good one (has them tuned to 32Hz in the PE box). My MTs (a single 7" driver) played well into the 30s, with pretty clean bass.

The Natalie Ps are designed to be accurate, so the bass shouldn't be boomy or loose at all.

Definitely wasn't aware of this driver's bass capability (haven't modeled it in unibox yet) which is why I never considered a tune as low as 32hz. If you're getting into the 30's with an MT (Modula MT?), clean and accurately, I am very impressed. Thanks a lot for that bit of info :) much appreciated.

If you're getting into the 30's with an MT (Modula MT?), clean and accurately, I am very impressed. A local builder needed a bit of help with his crossovers so he brought his Modula TMs over for me to diagnose. This was my first experience with them and I was quite impressed with the low frequency output.

Definitely wasn't aware of this driver's bass capability (haven't modeled it in unibox yet) which is why I never considered a tune as low as 32hz. If you're getting into the 30's with an MT (Modula MT?), clean and accurately, I am very impressed. Thanks a lot for that bit of info :) much appreciated.

Neither was I, till I fired them up with some hip-hop.

Very impressive bass for a single 7" driver (Yep, the Modula MT)

Jon did a most excellent job with the design (as expected). :)

A local builder needed a bit of help with his crossovers so he brought his Modula TMs over for me to diagnose. This was my first experience with them and I was quite impressed with the low frequency output.

That makes me smile :D


Neither was I, till I fired them up with some hip-hop.

Very impressive bass for a single 7" driver (Yep, the Modula MT)

Jon did a most excellent job with the design (as expected).

I mean, from what i've read the only advantage to the MTM designs is added sensitivity, so I guess i'll expect some hefty bass.

Here is my goal based on your suggestions Will
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/VBResponseDaytonRS1807NatP.gif

Rough X-over sketch
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/NatalieP-1.jpg

Putting things this way should help me during the actual install :P

When do you begin? :D

As soon as I can get my hands on some Masonite or Pegboard to mount the electronics on :D
I haven't received the BOM yet either. It should be arriving this week some time. I'll have to wait until my next paycheck to order the drivers. At this point all I need are the enclosures and drivers. Ports are ordered along with binding posts...Things are going along smoothly now. Thanks again for suggesting the lower tuning BTW

No problem.
;)

Here it is http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/SSPX0184.jpg

and here is what the crossovers will look like http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/SSPX0185.jpg

Haven't decided yet between pegboard or masonite. Also haven't decided if I should put down the cash for a glue gun to mount the electronics.

I'll only use the DA175's to test the crossover after all is soldered (if I don't have the Rs180's by then)

glue gun might not be the best option . its possible for the components to get hot enough to melt hot glue (not all that hard) what might be a good option is to use a small dab of hot glue to get everything layed out then use a 2 part epoxy to permanently secure the components. or you could do solder it to a circuit board and make your own circuit boards.

thats a lot of work though, i would say some good 5 min epoxy on some hard board or peg board and you will be set.

Cr-Gor, Thanks for your input. This seems to be a much safer route.
So, i'll glue everything down after everything is wired and tested properly I assume?

you might wanna lay it out with hot glue first cause some epoxies (the ones i would recommend) set VERY strong so removal will be problematic. i have never built a crossover but i build stuff all the time and when i get around to building my own thats how i will do it.

on a side note hot glue guns are good to have but even the heat of the sun inside of your car can make it not hold anymore so its limited in strength when heat is involved

I've used hot glue to build crossovers for more than 20 yrs and never damaged a component with the heat.

Use the completely clear hot glue it has the lowest melting point. If you need to replace a component it will peel-off most surfaces.

You should be able to find a glue gun locally for $10-$15

If you use epoxy and for some reason need to replace a component you're screwed.

i think you misunderstood or i misstated. what i meant was heat from the inductors and resistors specifically can possilbly create enough heat to melt the hot glue after being installed, and then you have components moving around on you. it may be a non issue for all but the most extreme crossovers but i was just bringing it up to make him aware.

I've used hot glue to build crossovers for more than 20 yrs and never damaged a component with the heat.

Use the completely clear hot glue it has the lowest melting point. If you need to replace a component it will peel-off most surfaces.

You should be able to find a glue gun locally for $10-$15

If you use epoxy and for some reason need to replace a component you're screwed.

I used it on my build too. It works well.

Cy-Gor: Even low-temp hot glue needs 260°F to melt. If your xover components get that warm..well...something is wrong.

Hell..I accidentaly burned one of my resisitors with the soldering iron. It is sitll working great though. :rolleyes:

well i am speaking from experience. i had hard wired my radar detector in my car and the mute button is seperate from the detector and it was hotglued to the underside of my dash and after a hot day in texas i was no longer attached, it wasnt melted it just didnt hold any more and that is a lot lighter than some of the inductors that are going to be used so i would say go with epoxy. thats just me.

well i am speaking from experience. i had hard wired my radar detector in my car and the mute button is seperate from the detector and it was hotglued to the underside of my dash and after a hot day in texas i was no longer attached, it wasnt melted it just didnt hold any more and that is a lot lighter than some of the inductors that are going to be used so i would say go with epoxy. thats just me.

Ahhh. Well I understand that. :)

But the dash in a car on a hot day in texas != interior of speaker cabinet in a climate controlled home. :o

Well thanks for that debate, I think it is safe to go with Thomas's suggestion of the glue gun as I'd like to be able to upgrade some capacitors down the road. Another thing. I have no idea where the positive and negative wires comming from the amp enter the circuit. It looks like they both connect to the C1 cap from this schematic http://audioworx.virtualave.net/NataliePSchm.jpg

The positive connection enters the circuit where you see "Generator 1".

The negative connection is where R3 and L2 connect.

Ahhhhhhh, thanks a lot.

No problem. I remember what it was like staring that a diagram just like that one..and trying to make sense of it all.

Fun times. Its a great learning experience. Enjoy it. =)

I am enjoying it alright :D
Once they're done i'll probably miss all of this :p

I am enjoying it alright :D
Once they're done i'll probably miss all of this :p

And that is when you begin another project.


:D

Willd, you're becomming a bad influence on my wallet lol. I see it getting thinner and thinner listening to you :D

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/SSPX0195.jpg

Its been tested for the midwoofer and works. I don't have a tweeter around to test that part yet. Putting together a working crossover on my first attempt...didn't see this comming :P

Willd, you're becomming a bad influence on my wallet lol. I see it getting thinner and thinner listening to you :D

Somehow I don't think the Natalie Ps will be a good "influence" either. :D

That xover looks pretty good. It isn't as hard as you thought it would be, right? :)

Keep it up!

how about using the focus knob on the camera..... :D

It took all of 10 minutes to solder together. pretty simple. :-) and that picture was taken with my cell phone, it has no focus lol.

Hurry up.

I want to hear your impression of the finished speakers. :D

It took all of 10 minutes to solder together. pretty simple. :-) and that picture was taken with my cell phone, it has no focus lol.

Hey Exocer,

I was wondering if you could help a fellow NY'er (well, NY subuarbs) out.

I am pretty new to this - I will be building my first Dayton speakers this weekend as a Father's Day project using their BR-1 kit. If all goes well, I plan on doing more research on the Natalie P's. I have a question on your most recent crossover picture: You have the two capacitors in the upper middle section wired in parralel and connected to a an inductor in the lower right corner, correct? Could you tell me what type of wire is that black wire used to make the connection? Thanks for you help!!

Royce

Hurry up.

I want to hear your impression of the finished speakers. :D

Ok ok! gosh :D hehe If it makes ya happy, I finished the second crossover ;)


Hey Exocer,

I was wondering if you could help a fellow NY'er (well, NY subuarbs) out.

I am pretty new to this - I will be building my first Dayton speakers this weekend as a Father's Day project using their BR-1 kit. If all goes well, I plan on doing more research on the Natalie P's. I have a question on your most recent crossover picture: You have the two capacitors in the upper middle section wired in parralel and connected to a an inductor in the lower right corner, correct? Could you tell me what type of wire is that black wire used to make the connection? Thanks for you help!!

Royce

Royce, glad I can be of assistance. I bought it in a spool of 60ft. It is called "hook-up" wire at radioshack. Says its rated at 300volts and is 18guage. Probably far from optimal in my situation...IF anyone thinks I should scrap this wire for something thicker let me know ;)

Thanks for the reply! "Hook up" wire, eh? Sounds like something that could have come in handy in college.

Thanks for the reply! "Hook up" wire, eh? Sounds like something that could have come in handy in college.

Heh :p

Well it looks like the RS28a's are out of stock for now...I guess i'll really get these together some time after july 1st.

Edit: now july 2nd :(

Dang..I thought you had all of the drivers.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/SSPX0208.jpg the quadruplets have arrived! still awaiting the twins.

So pretty.

Drivers are sooooo hot.

This looks really cool, Rob. I'm looking forward to reading about these speakers when they are completed.

I'm also looking forward to building my own speakers with the Dayton RS drivers. MT's for the surrounds and rear, and matching TMWW for mains and center (Speakers behind AT screen). It'll be a while before I start building the speakers, though.

Do it Cracky, do it.

I love my MTs...and I imagine you would love the TMWWs just as much as I would love a servo sub. ;)

Cracky, I haven'y heard my Natalie P's yet but I am sure you'll love the TMWW's as much as I'll love the Natalie P's once they're done ;)

Willd, you do need to get the Rythmik servo...Cracky is the reason why I bought the Rythmik servo sub :p You'll love it, seriously.

Cracky, I haven'y heard my Natalie P's yet but I am sure you'll love the TMWW's as much as I'll love the Natalie P's once they're done ;)

Willd, you do need to get the Rythmik servo...Cracky is the reason why I bought the Rythmik servo sub :p You'll love it, seriously.

I am certainly thinking about it. I don't need to be spending any money now, but hell...my birthday is coming up. :D

The Rythmik, while powerful enough for my living room, will now stay in my bedroom to mate with the Natalie P's :) Hope they get along well...I don't see why not. If the Rythmik doesn't like the ported Nat P, I can always buy a port plug and get a Q of .7 and crossover the Nat P's higher at around 80hz for a seemless blend...I've got it all planned out ;)

I am contemplating a dual assasin 12" project or possibly a single SS RL-P 15" project for the living room for all out HT purposes trying to keep budget below $400...wish me luck :-P

What is gonna go in your livingroom?

Dang, Nat Ps in your bedroom....sweeeeet.

Currently no other plans for the living room besides a decent sub. This is where all six of my NHT SB2's will reside. :)

Ahh.

Yeah, no critical listening happens downstairs anyway lol.

Edit: but if it were up to me (and I were filthy stinkin' rich), I'd build a pair of Modulta MT's, the TMWW's and a matching WTMW center :)

You have no clue. :D

Id kill to build those 3-ways. However..I am interested in what designs comes out this year using the RS52 midrange driver.

It took all of 10 minutes to solder together. pretty simple. :-) and that picture was taken with my cell phone, it has no focus lol.

or just holding the cam still when taking the pic helps too

or just holding the cam still when taking the pic helps too
duh :)

anyway...still waiting on those Rs28a's...Still need to get my Plywood cut...this project is taking much longer than I had hoped. But on the bright side I did manage to get a real glue gun and glue down the xover to the PC Board. No sanding was necessary...

Excellent.

Decided to go with a decent Red Oak Ply this time around, the cuts are done. Next is to route the 8 holes per speaker. I'll need to get off my lazy butt and get that done this week because the tweeters should be arriving no later than friday! I've gone with the 30 liter version tuned to 32hz since they'll likely be assisted by one heck of a musical sub. Another thing to keep in mind is that these speakers will likely be worlds ahead of my NHT's in the efficiency area...ported or sealed... ;) due to larger cabinet, multiple drivers etc..http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/SSPX0221.jpg

1 Front baffle done. My goal is to have the cabinets completed by friday.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/IMGP0526.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/IMGP0529.jpg

This is REALLY getting exciting :D

Looking really good!

I bet seeing the 180s in the baffle gets you excited. :D

Yes. Well as much of a motivation it is to see the drivers mounted (minus the tweeter) it's a major tease. The drivers are stairing at me and I cant wait to hear how they sound but they're soooo far from done. I haven't even decided on the crossover/port/binding post layout yet. Anyway...keep checking in for updates tomorrow! :D

Awww. Hurry up man! No time to waste. :)

That looks really cool! Any idea on what you will be finishing the wood with?

Thanks! the pictures don't do it justice. I may stay with it's native Red Oak Veneer.

Thanks! the pictures don't do it justice. I may stay with it's native Red Oak Veneer.

I think I would do the same. Ive seen some very pretty speakers that were done with good plywood and finished by themselves, no other veneer.

I just realized the tweeter hole is about 1/4" closer to one woofer :o I hope this isn't enough of a difference from spec to warrant a crossover re-design for optimal performance.

Edit: its actually 5/16" away from 1 woofer and 1/2" away from the other. not a noticable difference.

I accidentily cut the port hole too high and now there isn't enough clearance between the port end and the top woofer...:( I have to get another piece cut

WillD, I remember reading in another thread that you own the Infinity Primus 150's. I too own the primus 150's. I've only had one other bookshelf speaker to compare them too though, the NHT SB-2's which literally mop the floor with the primus's in every area except for the higher frequencies. I find the Primus 150's to be a bti more smooth in the top end. How would you compare the SQ of the X-LS's, the primus 150's and the Modula MT (which tweeter did you go with btw? IIRC the Seas design?)...Very interesting comparo there IMO

I thought so as well, and I planned (before I got the X-LS) to a somewhat formal write-up about all 3. I am not sure I could do such a thing justice, but I might give it a shot one day.

I am not surprised that your NHTs destroyed the 150s. I used them in my dorm room for a while, and they were alright there, but I knew they weren't anything special. As soon as I moved back home, they were put on bedroom duty.

My Modula MTs eat them for lunch. No comparison. Thats how it should be though, since the Modulas were $400+ (bought the PE cabinets, the aren't cheap) and I got the 150s for $100.

I used the Seas 27TDFC in my Modulas, btw. I thought I would like the "soft dome sound", and I do. Although, I've heard from the man himself (Jon) that the Dayton RS28 is very good, and I think he prefers it to any other budget tweeter. I would no doubt be happy with either.

IMO, the X-LS are worth every penny, and they beat the 150s out like I expected, but I have yet to actually sit down and test each pair on my XR-55 one afternoon.

If I had to make up a scale, with the Modulas being a 10...I'd put the X-LS' at 7.5, and the 150s at 5.5.

Yeah I would expect things to go in that order ;) BTW Do the X-LS's image well? Are they warm sounding? I actually like the warm sound but every now and then you miss the detailed midrange of less warm speakers.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/IMGP0535.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/IMGP0533.jpg

Yes I need to vacuum, I swear i'll get around to it once the cabinets are done ;)

Looking really good man. You are so close.

And yeah, I think the X-LS' image quite well for a $200 speaker..and IMO they are bit on the warm side, but they manage to not lose much detail.

Oddly enough, someone from AVS came to my house to hear the X-LS' with my Sonic T-Amp (a good combo btw) and we ended up putting the X-LS on my XR-55 B-connection and comparing them with my Modulas. The most surprising thing I found was that my MTs actually sounded a bit more "laid back". Maybe thats cause neutral, if done right, sounds laid back? I read someone else say the same think about some Ascends, so that seems plausible.

I did end of realizing that one of my Modulas was actually ~3dB "louder" than the other. I switched them to the opposite channel but it was still the same speaker with the "problem. And hell, for all I know, the other speaker is actually ~3dB quieter. For now, setting the balance works just fine, but I still find it odd.

man, something like that would REALLY bother me. I hopenothing is wrong in the x-over:-/

Well one Natty down, one to go. And wow, what a nice sounding beautiful speaker it is ;)

Will, how much was the Sonic T-Amp?

Congrats on finishing one speaker.

The sonic T-Amp was $30 by itself, then $20 for the ac-dc adaptor.



man, something like that would REALLY bother me. I hopenothing is wrong in the x-over:-/

Turns out that there may not be a problem at all. :confused:

Check out my post here at HTguide. (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=269823&postcount=507)

I think it might have been an issue with AVIA or something. Oh well.

Good news! ;)
Man it would suck to have to go back and re-do a crossover once all is said and done.

Good news! ;)
Man it would suck to have to go back and re-do a crossover once all is said and done.

No kidding. I realized after this near-incident, that on my next build I will make sure to put the two xovers together at the same time, methodically. When I built these, I did one xover the night before the other. I still built the 2nd one identically, for the most part, but still. :rolleyes:

And after that I will run test tones on each to make sure they are playing at the same volume, just as a precaution.

DIY really is a learning experience, from before building, to long after you are done. :)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/IMGP0537.jpg

I still need to go over a few edges with the flush trimmer and sand down a few glue stains but other than that its done!

I think a roundover would look quite nice, but those have turned out pretty well IMO. Even unstained, they look alright. Maybe it is the contrast from black/"white".

I think a roundover would look quite nice, but those have turned out pretty well IMO. Even unstained, they look alright. Maybe it is the contrast from black/"white".

Oh yeah, that would look killer!

I love the speakers, Rob. Tell us how they sound before and after break-in.

I'll definitely keep you guys posted...so far there are many improvements over the NHT's. Side by side, the NHT's seem almost congested with vocals. Also despite the fact that the RS28a is indeed a metal dome tweeter, the typical metal dome "hiss" during S sounds is completely gone. Though I miss some things about the NHT warmth, the improvement in detail in the midrange is an incredible improvement. The only bad part about the improved midrange is the ability to hear how badly compressed some MP3's are. On another note,my drivers are probably broken in already because of all the crossover testing i've done prior to building..wanted to make sure both crossovers sounded similar and created some type of stereo image :p

These pictures do the speakers NO justice, believe me when I say that. The light red oak looks very good with the all black drivers.

Will I agree on the roundover. I haven't decided 1/2" or 3/4"...right now Im leaning towards the 3/4" for the front baffle and the 1/2" for the rest of the enclosure...Man Im in over my head...still haven't painted the Rythmik yet :P

Both are done! I'll post some pics later today. Wow these produce some tremendous bass output in my room :eek: They can really loud without losing clarity.

Both are done! I'll post some pics later today. Wow these produce some tremendous bass output in my room :eek: They can really loud without losing clarity.

Awesome news, how do they blend with the rythmik sub and what is the sub crossed at?

Both are done! I'll post some pics later today. Wow these produce some tremendous bass output in my room :eek: They can really loud without losing clarity.

No doubt dude! I am not surprised considering how much bass the single RS180 MTs have. The NatPs must function quite well by themselves. No doubt the Rythmik adds a lot though.

Good to hear you are doing a roundover. I know next to nothing about woodworking (size of roundover), but I know they look good.

Any idea what your total cost for the pair is? (just curious)

Heres the breakdown:
X-over BOM, ports, binding posts, acoustic treatment: $188
Drivers:$230.58
14ga zip cord 20': $12.40
Wood: $60

~$491

You can save in two areas...I chose to go with Solen caps and mills resistors.. but going with Dayton caps/resistors would drop the price A LOT for the BOM, going with MDF would drop the price of wood to no more than $25$ I easily could have pulled this off with a $375 budget in mind.

This thread is really making me want to start my TMWW's, damnit. If only I didn't have a whole house to build I would be making the speakers right now!

So Rob, where do you have the Rythmik Xover at?

man, response looks awefully jagged for such a nice sounding pair but the bass really looks as good as it sounds on REW. I need some bass traps bad :p
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/NatalieP-2.jpg

Chris, I am glad this project inspired you! I almost want to built the TMWW mains for the living room LOL! These Natalie P's, in my room are strong down to right where I tuned them to, 32hz. HAven't got the Rythmik dialed in yet with these but I am thinking about alternating between 40hz-60hz for the crossover VIA receiver and leaving it's own crossover all the way up...

BTW this is the pre-roundover graph...we'll see how the roundover effects FR.

These measurements were taken @ listening position which is currently slightly off axis. We'll see what affect taller stands have on FR as well

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/DSCN1245.jpg
I've switched the speakers since this picture and have the tweeters inward now. Sounds a bit better.

Edit:Rythmik is happily crossed over @ 60hz and is cannot...i repeat cannot be localized by anyone, even me ;) This setup worked out a lot better than I had hoped. Mission completed. Now, its time to go blast some movies :D

My calculated final cost above was off. I forgot I had ordered an optical cable with that order...Also I got re-imbursed the difference from the original 30.74 per driver price of the rs180 for the sale price of $27 , that drops things another $15.

Total cost was $460, shipping included! That is impressive IMO.

Excellent work man. They look good, and I know they sound great. Enjoy them, I know I would.

Thanks a lot Will! couldn't have done it without ya ;)

For anyone out there who followed this thread and are considering DIY but are unsure of their abilities...If I can do this anyone can. These turned out 100x better than my expectations even after reading all the hype and yes I made them myself! DIY is not as hard as it seems. Go ahead and give it a shot

Well..at this point the Natalie P's are broken in and totally rock out! They sound so much more crisp and clear now than they did just a few days ago.

Initially after completing both speaker I took an FR sweep from listening position. I, not being confident in my ability to properly build a crossover, worried that I had made some type of mistake because there were two nulls. These were definitely room induced nulls. Thomas over at HTguide said something about the crossover design that I didn't initially know...There is no compensation in the crossover design for these speakers to be placed near many boundaries. I made the mistake of having them close to two boundaries. My dresser and my wall.

Fortunately i've found a location for them that workes exceptionally well. As far as possible from any reflective surfaces. They sound incredibly clear and articulate. Much more so than my NHTs especially in the midrange where the NHT's were thick and warm sounding.

Sounds fantastic! Reading posts like this really give me the urge to build again. I can't wait till Jon Marsh designs the RS180, RS52, RS28a 3-way center to match the Natalie Ps. Even though I don't have the NatPs, Id probably build it.

Well, I am not entirely sure if he is using the 180 or 28a, but it would only make sense.

Dude I was thinking the same thing. Can't wait for the center to be designed. If you do decide on the Natalie P's as your mains the Modula MT's would do good as surrounds....oh wait your Modulas use the Seas tweeter. I doubt they'd sound bad with the RS28a's accross the front though. For some reason I thought he would use the 8" rs225's

He very well might, I have no idea. The only thing I do know is that it will use the RS52.

I am actually fairly happy with my Modula MTs being my fronts. My two weakest links are sub and center, and while I could afford to build Natalie Ps, the center, and a sub, I don't feel like spending that much money right now. I am not too concerned with the possibilty of having different tweeters across the front soundstage. I know I should be, but as long as the center is a good one, I'll be ok.

Yeah i'd have to agree there. Plus the rs28a's don't sound much different than the seas used in the Modulate MT's. They just roll off the higher frequencies a bit sooner.

Yeah i'd have to agree there. Plus the rs28a's don't sound much different than the seas used in the Modulate MT's. They just roll off the higher frequencies a bit sooner.

Exactly. Hell, right now I am using a pair of X-LS for surround use, and they sound great to me. I never once say.."Man, I really wish that my surrounds matched my fronts perfectly, because these don't sound good".

When I am older, and have more money, I will definitely have a completely matched setup, but for now, I want the best I can get for the $$$.

Point taken Will, we're on the same page ;)

Here are my new NatP stands.http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/DSCN1303.jpg

How do you like the stands?

And I dig your style..."small" CRT TV, but kickass audio.

Thanks! Yeah, the CRT is 20" and it still shows a picture so why replace it? :p
As for the stands, they've raised the NatP's about 6". Now the tweeters are at ear level. Not only did imaging greatly improve as a result of this, but the sheer mass of the stands have improved bass response and clarity significantly. Whoever doesn't believe in quality stands should listen up! ;)

Thanks! Yeah, the CRT is 20" and it still shows a picture so why replace it? :p
As for the stands, they've raised the NatP's about 6". Now the tweeters are at ear level. Not only did imaging greatly improve as a result of this, but the sheer mass of the stands have improved bass response and clarity significantly. Whoever doesn't believe in quality stands should listen up! ;)

Hell yeah (on the TV).

Thats good to hear about the stands working well for you. I'd pick up a pair of them, but I really need 30-32" stands. I think I'll have to build a pair...

Okay, building a pair would be much cheaper...but I don't even know of any quality store bought speakers tall enough for your needs..lol

Okay, building a pair would be much cheaper...but I don't even know of any quality store bought speakers tall enough for your needs..lol

Store bought speakers? Nah, these stands are for my fronts. I already built a pair of 38" tall stands for my X-LS surrounds.

My Modulas are sitting on a pair of old 12" two-way horn speakers that my dad built in the early 70s. I would like to have some proper stands, for sure.

Although I have considered a pair of subs to double as stands.

brain fart...I meant stands.. wow i need to leave that stuff alone ;)

Pair of subs?? stereo basssss! man I bet youd be able to get away with a fairly high crossover with a setup like that.

brain fart...I meant stands.. wow i need to leave that stuff alone ;)

Pair of subs?? stereo basssss! man I bet youd be able to get away with a fairly high crossover with a setup like that.

I was thinking the same thing...but I wouldn't use a higher crossover unless I got around the whole mono sub pre-out thing. I'd want to have the bass in each channel, play on its own sub. Thats why I am leaning towards doing just one nice sealed (with EQ of some form), a big vented (something like an LLT), or a PR design. I've really narrowed it down, eh? :D

I guess I could get around that by just setting the front speakers to large, then doing the xover work from the speaker outputs, but I dunno...

Silly me, I assumed you would use speaker level inputs on a subwoofer/speaker stand setup. No other way to implement subwoofer/stands makes sense to me.

As far as setting the speakers to large, I never saw the advantage of doing so when you have a sub in the mix. It always sounded better setting the mains to small and crossing the sub over at 60 or 80hz in my listening space. Dynamic headroom takes a huge hit if my mains aren't set to small...Maybe a good dedicated pro-amp is in order here ;)

Silly me, I assumed you would use speaker level inputs on a subwoofer/speaker stand setup. No other way to implement subwoofer/stands makes sense to me.

As far as setting the speakers to large, I never saw the advantage of doing so when you have a sub in the mix. It always sounded better setting the mains to small and crossing the sub over at 60 or 80hz in my listening space. Dynamic headroom takes a huge hit if my mains aren't set to small...Maybe a good dedicated pro-amp is in order here ;)

Yeah, you are right. I can't think of another way (at least no with the receiver I have).

I agree (I only mentioned it, because I'd have to do so in order to to go the speaker level-sub route). Yeah....freeing up the mains from the bass definitely improves the sound IMO.

What receiver do you have? It looks like a H/K of some sort...maybe you should check out a pro amp. That'd be a neat "test".

HK avr 235, it has pre-outs that I am just dying to use :p

Dooooo it.

Well, an ep1500 should be on its way real soon (for the tumult) I may hook it up the mains first to see how it sounds ;)

Sweet.

Well, I lied...the Ep1500 went straight to the Tumult/Ava15 :p

But today I realized I had a stupid DSP enabled for most my experience with the Natalie P speakers...For those who own a Creative Labs X-fi sound card, the dsp I am talking about is called "CMSS-3D"... It is not disabled forever...

Today I also found a problem in the crossover of my right speaker. I guess some solder wiggled apart during use and I never noticed until now. So I went ahead and fixed the connection, making sure it would stay this time around. While I was inside the enclosures I decided to re-do the internal damping, replacing it with Stevenn's fiber glass. I placed some around the port and on the top and bottom section of the 2nd chamber past the bracing...This really helped vocals sound a lot less colored.

The results are outstanding...the soundstage completely opened up, the sound now makes the previous sound dull and gray...who knows what i'll do next but these speakers officially make me grin, just like the Tumult ;)

Here is a graph taken from listening position. The dip at 118hz is killing me, but they still sound amazing throughout the rest of their frequency range.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/NatalieP-3.jpg

Compare this to the old graph on page 3.

I would'nt worry about the dip at 118 it is probably just a reflection from the floor( floor bounce)affecting the result.The measurement looks quite good otherwise .

Thanks a lot for the compliment :) Wish I could invite one of you guys over to hear these babies.

Finally rounded off the edges.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/DSCN1454.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/DSCN1456.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/DSCN1453.jpg

Excuse the messy room.

Nice! Are you gonna stain them?

thanks!
Probably not going to stain them. I like the color so much I might as well glaze them in something to protect the finish.

They look great Rob. I agree, I'd just spray a clear finish of some kind on them.

Thanks Willy!

Any clearcoat recommendations?

Nah, that is one area (of many) I know nothing about. There are plenty of folks on here or HTGuide who know how to properly finish speaker cabinets though.

Well, I finally got around to doing some close-mic measurements, setting each speaker in the same exact position. I did this for two reasons.

1.Hopefully determine realistically whether or not there is a problem with the speaker itself around 120hz.
2. See how close to each other the speakers measure, the closer they measure the better.

Close mic (indoor) distance ~1.5ft
Here are my 1/1 smoothing graphs :p

Left:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/leftnataliep.jpg
Right:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/rightnataliep.jpg

1/3 smoothing graphs
Left:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/leftnataliep1-3.jpg
Right:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/rightnataliep1-3.jpg

IMO the two speakers measure ridiculously close to each other.

The issue at 120hz 1/1 smoothing. Measurement taken at listening position
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/natnull1-1.jpg

Huge null at 120hz.

Let this be a message to everyone on the importance of placement and proper acoustic treatment :eek:

Edit: The close-mic measurements were accidently done with speakers set to small with a 60hz crossover. The last graph showing the in-room null was taken with the speakers set to large.

Exocer, Natalie P's look great!!! I have some questions if you don't mine.

1. What was your external dimensions on the encloser?

2. How thick was the red oak?

3. Did you double up on the baffle?

4. Did you use any internal bracing?

5. What kind of tune did you end up with and how long was the 2" port from end of flare to end of flare?

6. What kind and how much lining or poly fill did you use?

BR

1. External dimensions were those from PE's 1ft^3 box found here (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=302-750) . Although if I could go back I'd probably make the speaker a little bit longer for more volume which would've then translated into more bass :-)

2.About ~ 3/4" thick or pretty close.

3. No, I didn't bother doubling up on the baffle. They're still relatively low in resonances.

4. I am surprised I never snapped a picture of my internal brace. I did this (http://www.partsexpress.com/imageslarge/302-750i.jpg) for internal bracing and it worked out well.

5. 32hz was my goal as per the design here (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13969&page=1) John says "I used Precision 2" ports from PE; the center tube will need to be cut to 3-1/4" to 3-1/2"; note that we're both trying to get the correct tuning length..."

6. I tried about 3 different alternatives. First was acoustastuff, which was ok. Next was fiberglass. After this I wanted to try something with an adhesive. I ended up with one sheet of This (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=260-520) and have been most satisfied. No reason to switch this stuff out. Three squares behind each driver. Two on the left and right sides behind the driver and one square on the top and bottom of the enclosure right behind the driver.

What size roundover did you use? 1/2" or 3/4"

Thanks Exocer your reply has help me allot. I have read through the whole Modula MTM thread and just finished reading the Natalie P thread today. The Modula MTM would be awesome but the price between the two will probably make me decide for the Natalie P.

I am working on a BOM for the Natalie and trying to figure out which inductors to go with. It was a little tricky unless you read the whole thread but I think I got it. I know you know this because you asked the question a few times before you got an answer which I thought was not that direct. It looks like you went with the perfect lay 14g 1.2mh inductor, the Jahtzen .44mh 18guage inductor and .20mh Jahtzen 15guage inductor. Can you confirm this?

Thanks Exocer your reply has help me allot. I have read through the whole Modula MTM thread and just finished reading the Natalie P thread today. The Modula MTM would be awesome but the price between the two will probably make me decide for the Natalie P.

I am working on a BOM for the Natalie and trying to figure out which inductors to go with. It was a little tricky unless you read the whole thread but I think I got it. I know you know this because you asked the question a few times before you got an answer which I thought was not that direct. It looks like you went with the perfect lay 14g 1.2mh inductor, the Jahtzen .44mh 18guage inductor and .20mh Jahtzen 15guage inductor. Can you confirm this?

Very glad to help!
Yeah I used those exact inductors with great results. The modula MTM's were out of my budget as well and I couldn't be happier with these.

Looneybomber, 1/2" roundover.

Exocer, would you by chance have any pics of your crossover?

page 2 of this thread.

Since that pic was taken the thing point to point wires have been replaced with much lower gauge wire.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=100-060&CFID=6865825&CFTOKEN=43392234

Probably not the best wire, but better than the thin wire I originally used.

Exocer, i finished my natalie p and wanted to say thanks for your contributions.

You're very welcome! Glad I can help a fellow DIYer. How do they sound?

As you know they are very nice speakers, hopefully one day i will acquire the proper equip to do some real testing like you have.

They are lovely speakers! I auditioned some speakers in J and R while looking at TVs and was unimpressed with every single speaker I heard. Some costing 2x and 3x the price of my Natalie P's! :D

You can do way better than what I have ;) go the Behringer calibrated mic route for indisputably correct measurements.

go the Behringer calibrated mic route for indisputably correct measurements.
This will more than likely be the way i am looking at when the time comes.

Behringer A 500 on the way :) Will report back later this week with some impressions.

Not sure if anyone really cares...but this A 500 simply rocks. Especially for what I paid ;)

I would love to here more. Can the natalie p's handle all of the 230w? Where did you purchase it from? A little more detail of your impressions would be great.

I'll PM you with the store information.

This amp at its price (or, especially the price I paid) is a steal. Everyone should have one! :D

I haven't had much time with it yet, and because my 2 year old nephew is sick with a fever I haven't had the opportunity to turn the volume up.

Here are my first impressions at low volume:

1. It is way more attractive in person than the online pictures.
2. Compared to the HK's integrated amp, there is much less "hissing". In fact I haven't heard a single sign of hissing.
3. Bass when running the Natalie P's full range sounds way more controlled and pronounced.
4. The highs appear to be more lively now.
5. Feels well-built.
6. Still can't believe it does all this without fans...while being a class A/B amp ;)

Tomorrow after work i'll have more time to do some listening.

Edit: Yes, I realize some of those impressions have nothing to do with the volume I listed at ;)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/SSPX0362.jpg

Tomorrow after work i'll have more time to do some listening.

Let us know how it turns out. Thanks for the PM.

Will do.

Does the rack ears come off ?

Do you know if there is any filters on this amp ? or the 1500/2500 amps ?

ie. 30hz ??

When I get my QSC I'm going to compare it to my Carvers, if the qsc beats the carver's then I may get a A500 and 2 - EP1500's.

Have you measured your speakers response w/ your 2 amps to see how the new amp affects your speakers ?

Real nice NatalieP's..

Regards,
Jose

Do you know if there is any filters on this amp ? or the 1500/2500 amps ?


http://theaudiocritic.com/blog/index.php?op=ViewArticle&articleId=20&blogId=1

http://theaudiocritic.com/cwo_images/image86.jpg
Fig. 2: Frequency response of one channel at 1 watt into 8Ω. The other channel was identical.

Fig. 2 shows the small-signal frequency response of the A500. The low-frequency response is unexceptionable, but on the top end –0.2 dB at 10 kHz and –0.6 dB at 20 kHz is a bit too much of a rolloff in my opinion. An 18-year-old audiophile could conceivably hear an infinitesimal dulling of transients through the amplifier. Not very likely, but not out of the question.

Jose_L, Thanks for the compliment.

No, the rack ears are not removable as they're essentially a part of the heatsink system.

I've had more time with the Ep1500 so I know that it has two selectable highpass filters, one at 30 hz and the other @ 50hz IIRC...The third option would be setting the highpass to off ;)

Ok, so i've had some more time with the A 500 and its certainly a keeper. Most people will use this amp for 500 watts @ 8ohms bridged but mine will be used in stereo mode.

The Natalie p's at -20 on my receiver, full gain on the A500, produces incredibly high SPLs and incredible bass. Looking over to the front panel of the A500 reveals that at this point there is still plenty of fuel in the tank, and I can't imagine wanting to listen at levels any louder than this...I guess those extra few watts will come in handy during movies/gaming situations where there is a sudden increase in SPL. GOW tends to do that a lot.

I'll run some FR sweeps as soon as I get a 9v battery for the spl meter. Hopefully soon. :)

Edit: This amp is highly recommended. If anything, it is most likely more capable than a receiver at 20khz. -0.6db isn't something I would lose sleep over.

Thought I would update this thread :D

So, the current plan is to re-build these Natalie P's, and my pair of Modula MT's to use the Seas 27tdfc tweeter. Since there isn't a Seas based Natalie P, it will be a costly upgrade from Natalie P to Modula MTM. The re-build process will take forever, so I bought a pair of speakers (like i need anymore speakers... currently at over 7 pairs of bookshelf speakers) to hold me over until they're completed.

Take care, happy holidays to all.

Just a little update... No-rebuilding and the Modula MT's ended up being matching RS28A based.

So, my A500 took a dive 6ft under...I'm using my current receiver (Pioneer vsx 1018AH) to power the Natalie P's and a pair of JBL on-wall surrounds for a 4.1 setup.

Everything sounds amazing. The A500's left channel must have gradually failed over time since I can't remember ever hearing the Natalie P's image so well.

I'll be saving up for another pro-amp. Hoping to find my measurement tools to take a look at what the "Advance MCACC" does to the frequency response at listening position.