However, the press releases and statements from Milch and HBO carry more weight than the speculation of outsiders.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We'll see. I'll bet my left nut they pull out of the deal.

If they screw us out of the movies I will cancel my HBO!

If they screw us out of the movies I will cancel my HBO!
When a year or so from now? :confused:

yes!

Let me throw in a contrary opinion. I didn't find Sunday's show particularly well written or directed. Fascinating plot turns, but too stagy and mannered. When the writing is top notch, there's a sense of reality to the program even as we are aware that they didn't really talk that Shakespearean way in Deadwood. But this episode lacked the cleverness and depth we've seen so often this year.

Still couldn't take my eyes away.

Let me offer a rebuttal. I think that much of Deadwood's excellence is derived from its being "stagy and mannered." We know that the basest 19th Century crudeness is going to be described in blank verse -- not that there's anything wrong with that. But I do agree that it was a fascinating episode. I couldn't take my eyes away, either.

On to another subject. I share the fondness expressed by others for the scene with Wu walking out of Al's joint looking proud and saying, "Big man, big man." The setup for that was equally wonderful. Immediately after Wu arrives at Al's place and is shown to the room where Al will meet him later, Al says to his whores, "When he leaves, them that ain’t lining this f***king hallway like he’s the tallest, best-looking white man ever got f**king lucky better prepare for a f**king beating." What great stuff!

Anti-Clamatic for me. I so wanted to see a war betweeb Hurst's men and Wu's 150, and it sucked having the show end on a note of them bending over for Hurst.

I knew that there couldn't be the ending I'd like see considering the true history of Deadwood, but I would have so much liked a huge conflict, and 4th season to highlight it.

Wow. I have to say that I feel let down. Probably just because it was what may turn out be the last episode of the show ever (certainly the last "regular" episode). There were a number of questions that seemed un-answered to me, but aside from that I was hoping that Hearst would at least get some form of payback. I mean, I knew he wasn't going to die, if they kept it roughly historically accurate, but it just seemed that the "bad guys" won.

It was REALLY disappointing, wasn't it? There were a few good moments but, as I feared might happen, it ended with a whimper not a roar. Shades of Carnivalle.

sadly, they had no idea they weren't coming back when they filmed Season three, I think Season 4 was supposed to be the final showdown.

I think the same in a sense, but with Hearst leaving town I'm not sure exactly who the showdown would be between (I guess he's putting Cy in charge?). And we never got the final election returns (though it would seem obvious Bullock lost from the one count we got; anyone know if that is historically accurate?).

Yes Bullock lost and Star won.

Wow. I have to say that I feel let down. Probably just because it was what may turn out be the last episode of the show ever (certainly the last "regular" episode). There were a number of questions that seemed un-answered to me, but aside from that I was hoping that Hearst would at least get some form of payback. I mean, I knew he wasn't going to die, if they kept it roughly historically accurate, but it just seemed that the "bad guys" won.

Sadly, the bad guys winning is historically accurate more often than not.

Sadly, the bad guys winning is historically accurate more often than not.


The pace of the episode felt hurried in some way to me. Almost as if they were trying to fit too much in and not giving any one storyline what it deserved.

I wasn't so much expecting a battle as I was clear storylines that would continue into season 4. How it was left, there is no clear one or two items that you're anxious to see resolved at the start of what would have been the 4th season.

I guess its Cy's further decline into mental instability and his new Hurst conveyed role in the camp that brings Al and Cy back to the forefront as the bad and badder guys. Should be an interesting conclusion to this ongoing feud now that Cy has additional power.

GoIrish

I think the same in a sense, but with Hearst leaving town I'm not sure exactly who the showdown would be between (I guess he's putting Cy in charge?). And we never got the final election returns (though it would seem obvious Bullock lost from the one count we got; anyone know if that is historically accurate?).

I have the feeling that Hearst and Yankton will get screwed in the election. It seems that Manning has won, but he was beyond excited about the fire engine. I bet the 4th season would have begun with Manning declining his election as sheriff thus making Bullock the winner by default. Historical Bullock does become sherriff but I'm unsure of the timeline.

Sadly, the bad guys winning is historically accurate more often than not.

True, of course the Hearst family vehemently rejects the depiction of the family patriarch as shown in Deadwood. Regardless, I think having Hearst appear to "win" is kind of the point the show is making. The camp and its people and all their drama is really of no concern to Hearst other than it getting in his way. He is having conversations that they cannot ever hear to paraphrase the line. Al dies a bum and most of the others are all but forgotten but Hearst goes on to the US Senate and begats a dynasty.

We even have a Hearst Tower here in Charlotte btw. Funny to think about its connections to an empire that had its roots in the blood and mud of Deadwood. How was Al and Dan or even Bullock and Utter going to get in the way of that?

I was disappointed in the ending of the last episode. I hope the writers use some creativity so I can see that Hearst MF dead. Could Cy be suffering from neurosyphillis? Would make sense wouldnt it?

I felt watching last night's season finale that it could just as easily have been a series finale. There are few compelling storylines to wrap up in the 2 movies. Waiting to find out who won the elections is hardly riveting. Hearst provided the most compelling villain, and now he's left town with all the goods, along with Alma.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the 3 seasons and would have loved to have seen a 4th, but I don't feel the movies are absolutely necessary to provide closure. I'll be surprised if we haven't seen the last of Deadwood.

These HBO execs are about the bottom line period. There was a bevy of top flight and probably highly paid actors on this show. It probably cost alot to produce.It was the best series I have ever seen on HBO or anywhere else. It was sophisticated in its writing and rich in its characterizations. Its unlikely we will see all the cast back if the movies are made but I hope enough will be back so we can get some closure on this thing. Plus how can a Movie take right up on the storyline? Some backtracks to explain the prior events will be inevitable.
I feel like I am locked in one of those dimly lit Deadwood rooms and HBO has thrown away the key. Damn!

here is link which gives some explanation as to what is to come.
http://www.tv.com/story/story.html&story_id=4811

True, of course the Hearst family vehemently rejects the depiction of the family patriarch as shown in Deadwood. Regardless, I think having Hearst appear to "win" is kind of the point the show is making. The camp and its people and all their drama is really of no concern to Hearst other than it getting in his way. He is having conversations that they cannot ever hear to paraphrase the line. Al dies a bum and most of the others are all but forgotten but Hearst goes on to the US Senate and begats a dynasty.

We even have a Hearst Tower here in Charlotte btw. Funny to think about its connections to an empire that had its roots in the blood and mud of Deadwood. How was Al and Dan or even Bullock and Utter going to get in the way of that?

It seems to me that the Hearst character is more a composite of the robber barons of that period than a historically accurate depiction of George Hearst. Deadwood and its citizens represent the powerlessness of the people who lived in a typical company town of that period.

To hell with historical accuracy! I wish Cy would have grown a set and plugged Hearst from the balcony. Someone had to pay besides the hooker and dope head.

I guess they were trying to build up a show down between Cy (representing Hurst) and Al. Seems like a waste to have Hawkeye come through with 18 men, and Wu bring in his 150, and then have them do nothing.

I just so much wanted to see Bullock draw down on some of the Pinkerton pricks Hurst had with him.

History only mandates that they keep him alive. They could have satisfied our bloodlust by shooting off one of his testicles or perhaps given him some weird, embarrasing fetish that Al could have discovered and ridiculed him for it as he's leaving town. ;)

History only mandates that they keep him alive. They could have satisfied our bloodlust by shooting off one of his testicles or perhaps given him some weird, embarrasing fetish that Al could have discovered and ridiculed him for it as he's leaving town. ;)

Yeah, good idea :D

It seems to me that the Hearst character is more a composite of the robber barons of that period than a historically accurate depiction of George Hearst. Deadwood and its citizens represent the powerlessness of the people who lived in a typical company town of that period.
Agreed, "Deadwood" was also a a bit of a window on the collusion of private enterprise and government that the USA does all over the world now.

Agreed, "Deadwood" was also a a bit of a window on the collusion of private enterprise and government that the USA does all over the world now.

That's true throughout our history, whether it's the railroad barons of the 19th century, big steel in the early 20th century, and the oil industry today, just to name a few examples.

Milch saw this series as a 4 year run and would have tied up loose ends in the last year. HBO offered 6 episodes instead of 12 last year and his ego wouldnt stand for that. Milch apparently tried to independently finance the show but failed. Why he would go for 2 2hour movies and wouldnt go for 6 weekly episodes is beyond me.
Would you pay 10 bucks an episode to watch another year of Deadwood? I would but I dont know how many of the 4million viewers would.
This casts a pall on HBO .The wonderful actors were expensive and the production costs were very high. HBO must have been losing money. But I will be concerned that the better the series the more likely it will be cancelled.
Deadwoods uniqueness was its undoing .Its starkness and dark manner did not appeal to the masses . Remember Salieri was more popular in Vienna than Mozart.
Too bad someone cant fund it as a pay per view.

My biggest problem is the total change in the Swearengen that has gone on over this season. I felt okay about him becoming *apparently* subservient to Hearst, but the key word is "apparently". I expected him to be building up to something grand, and that he would be back to his old self by the end of the season. His character was certainly my favorite, and to see him cower like he did was upsetting.

I have the feeling that Hearst and Yankton will get screwed in the election. It seems that Manning has won, but he was beyond excited about the fire engine. I bet the 4th season would have begun with Manning declining his election as sheriff thus making Bullock the winner by default. Historical Bullock does become sherriff but I'm unsure of the timeline.

I think you're exactly right, he's going to decline in order to become the fire chief instead. Plus this is all great foreshadowing for the fire that burns the camp down....

I have intensely mixed feelings about the episode. Yes, there was no other way to end it but by having Hearst win, but it would have been nice to have some small victories in there. Deadwood was soundly and thoroughly beaten on every level. Its an audacious choice to end an episode that way, let alone a season (let alone a series!), but I think it also shows some amount of contempt for the audience.....

I'm also completely stumped as to why Milch dramatically decided to spend a great deal of effort 'massing the troops' only to have them be completely irrelevant. I dont see how they would have played any part of Season 4 - the confrontation is over as far as I can guess.

On a small scale though the episode was outstanding - lots of character moments that made sense and brought things together. Yes lots of loose ends (Steve and Langrishe to name two) but I am more forgiving of these because they would have been carried through and resolved in the upcoming season. Now I'm guessing they will be quickly resolved in the movies to get on to the larger details, which is sort of a shame.

I noticed on the credits this episode wasnt even written by Milch - I wonder how he feels about that now that it stands as the (regular) series finale :(

Andy K.

My biggest problem is the total change in the Swearengen that has gone on over this season. I felt okay about him becoming *apparently* subservient to Hearst, but the key word is "apparently". I expected him to be building up to something grand, and that he would be back to his old self by the end of the season. His character was certainly my favorite, and to see him cower like he did was upsetting.

Al's smart - he knows when he's completely outgunned. His first priority was to keep the camp from going up in flames - which he accomplished. Realizing of course he had to swallow many bitter pills to do so.

Andy K.

Deadwood and its citizens represent the powerlessness of the people who lived in a typical company town of that period.

Except Deadwood wasn't a company town, it was a lawless town before Hearst arrived, and his arrival only caused the current scoundrel inhabitants of Deadwood to bow before a superior scoundrel. Worrying about the outcomes of murderers and abusers like Swearengen and Tolliver, as Hearst came into town, and kicked their collective asses, is humorous. None of these guys were saints, they were all thugs. Just thugs of differing stripes.

Al's smart - he knows when he's completely outgunned. His first priority was to keep the camp from going up in flames - which he accomplished. Realizing of course he had to swallow many bitter pills to do so.

Andy K.

I agree that we saw the "real" Al, the "old" Al, again in that last episode. His decision to kill an innocent girl for personal gain and as a pander to Hearst, instead of killing the real miscreant, his favored Trixie, was so cold blooded and evil it took my breath away. I thought that was the strongest thread in the episode by far.

Yeah, that was a reality check with Al killing that girl. I've said it before, Swearengen isn't really good/evil, he's amoral. If it costs him nothing (or profits him), he's more than happy to see 'good' things happen. If it hurts his bottom line, he has no problem killing.
I suppose in a modern day setting, Al would be one of the big CEOs in the world. His attention to detail, ability to see down the road, read people, gather information (and realize it's power), and above all his ruthlessness, would make him a very successful CEO.

Some interesting points

- Johnny should have killed Trixie. How could Al have said anything to him as far as acting to save his favored girl, since Al was doing the same thing?

- Bullock just let the murder of an innocent be discussed blatantly in front of him. To let that go was more out of character than anything

- How Trixie knows Al so well, she knows he'll kill off another girl to take her place. It seemed to piss Al off that she knew that was his plan :)

- The short guy who's "hell with a knife". Funny to actually see him in the group. I didn't notice him at first, but my wife (who missed the earlier discussion) said "what's the midgit doing there?".

- Best part of the episode was Charlie standing up to both Hearst (in the confrontation in his room) and to the Pinkertons. As Joanie said, it showed he's "good in a tight place" and probably what Bill used to like about him.

And to all those that are very unhappy that Hearst didn't get his and that the bad guy actually won, I think the last quote of the night by Al was a thinly veild comment from Milch directed specifically to you....."Wants me to tell him something pretty." (as he's scrubbing blood off the floor).

Agreed, "Deadwood" was also a a bit of a window on the collusion of private enterprise and government that the USA does all over the world now.

Deadwood really drove home one painful point: that the 'great men' who founded our communities hundreds of years ago, who have noble statues of them standing in the town square, and schools named after them...were most likely ruthless thugs. Good guys rarely manage to successfully give birth to a town and see it through to prosperity, it takes a crime lord to do that (in most cases). Later on, we build up a heroic mythology around these pillars of the community.

I hope we get the two movies which will take Deadwood to some kind of resolve which is historically accurate. I mean with Bullock hunting with Teddy Roosevelt and eventually joining the rough riders which is ironic considering that Hearst's son through his newspaper hyped the war hysteria which led us to invade Cuba. Al getting rich then losing it all when the proper folks of Deadwood vote gambling and prostitution out...... and Jane joining Bufallo Bill in his Wild West Show and then retiring in Montana with Joanie Stubbs. It could make a great wrapup but would have to cover the next 20 years or so. Of course if you remember the ending of "Six Feet Under" they took it up to the end of everybody's life!

He is having conversations that they cannot ever hear to paraphrase the line.

Probably the most important line of the show. Hearst is gaining control of the territory and has bought himself a nice claim from Alma. He's probably batting 100% in terms of his reasons for coming to Deadwood in the first place.

Hearst watching the Deadwood citizens and their interactions is like watching an ant colony....interesting but insignificant. Hearst is operating at a different level.

I thought is was a good windup to the season....what ever happens in any future episodes is just icing on the cake. :)

I agree that we saw the "real" Al, the "old" Al, again in that last episode. His decision to kill an innocent girl for personal gain and as a pander to Hearst, instead of killing the real miscreant, his favored Trixie, was so cold blooded and evil it took my breath away. I thought that was the strongest thread in the episode by far.

My take was Al killed the innocent prostitute, more to prevent the conflict with Bullock, Star, and Utter if killing Trixie was put out as an option, not as much because he favored trixe...no way they would have went for it. Killing the innocent was the only way to get out of the Hearst conflict without bringing Deadwood down.

Deadwood really drove home one painful point: that the 'great men' who founded our communities hundreds of years ago, who have noble statues of them standing in the town square, and schools named after them...were most likely ruthless thugs. Good guys rarely manage to successfully give birth to a town and see it through to prosperity, it takes a crime lord to do that (in most cases). Later on, we build up a heroic mythology around these pillars of the community.
A member here has a great quote in his sig by Bernie Shaw that goes: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

I don't think a TV show could have possibly better embodied that maxim then Deadwood did. In fact I think I think that maxim is as close to the core of what Deadwood was all about as anything I can think of.

Deadwood really drove home one painful point: that the 'great men' who founded our communities hundreds of years ago, who have noble statues of them standing in the town square, and schools named after them...were most likely ruthless thugs. Good guys rarely manage to successfully give birth to a town and see it through to prosperity, it takes a crime lord to do that (in most cases). Later on, we build up a heroic mythology around these pillars of the community.
You sound like Karl Marx.

Except Deadwood wasn't a company town, it was a lawless town before Hearst arrived, and his arrival only caused the current scoundrel inhabitants of Deadwood to bow before a superior scoundrel. Worrying about the outcomes of murderers and abusers like Swearengen and Tolliver, as Hearst came into town, and kicked their collective asses, is humorous. None of these guys were saints, they were all thugs. Just thugs of differing stripes.

It wasn't a company town when Hearst arrived, but it was one when he left.

Am i the only one who was half-waiting for Hearst to discover the ruse by pulling the top off the dead whore Jen, thus uncovering an endowment no match for Trixie's?

lol...no, you weren't the only one.

You sound like Karl Marx.

I'm not Marxist, it's just that the 'winners' write the history and back in those days being a nice guy would get you killed and trampled. To see a venture through to success back then required someone like Al Swearengen. The legal system was, shall we say, very flexible.

A member here has a great quote in his sig by Bernie Shaw that goes: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

I don't think a TV show could have possibly better embodied that maxim then Deadwood did. In fact I think I think that maxim is as close to the core of what Deadwood was all about as anything I can think of.


or..my sig

AS much as I love and have loved Deadwood, last nite left me feeling depressed as to how it ended. BUMMER! :(

My take was Al killed the innocent prostitute, more to prevent the conflict with Bullock, Star, and Utter if killing Trixie was put out as an option, not as much because he favored trixe...no way they would have went for it. Killing the innocent was the only way to get out of the Hearst conflict without bringing Deadwood down.


Still I was bothered by it..."life is not fair" seems to be Deadwood's motto..I also think Al has a soft spot for Trixie and did have romantic feelings for her...he was hurt in S1 (or was it S2) when she started up with Star....

I will miss Deadwood but at least there is the four hour season to look forward to...I can do without the Jane/Joannie relationship....and the acting troupe bores me. Cy is getting meaner and meaner...out of control.

I also think Al cleaned up the blood himself as a sort of pennace because really he did not want to do it, but had to to keep Trixie alive and appease Hearst.

I will miss Deadwood but at least there is the four hour season to look forward to...I can do without the Jane/Joannie relationship....and the acting troupe bores me. Cy is getting meaner and meaner...out of control.I agree about the acting troupe (although I like Langrishe as a character). I don't mind the Jane/Joannie thing; though I'd have liked to see Jane shoot someone before the show was over :D .
I also think Al cleaned up the blood himself as a sort of pennace because really he did not want to do it, but had to to keep Trixie alive and appease Hearst.I sort of thought the same. Thought it was a bit like him cleaning off the bar during amateur nite; he likes to be alone sometimes and gather his thoughts, and it seems to help if he has something to do (although he also likes to talk to the Indian head, etc).

And to all those that are very unhappy that Hearst didn't get his and that the bad guy actually won, I think the last quote of the night by Al was a thinly veild comment from Milch directed specifically to you....."Wants me to tell him something pretty." (as he's scrubbing blood off the floor).

Absolutely brilliant

As much as I would love to see the 2-hour movies, the last episode was decent closure for the entire series.

Okay... maybe I'm thick. But outside of the historical aspects of Hearst... Why didn't someone in Deadwood just simply put a bullet in Hearst's brain pan, squish!

Okay... maybe I'm thick. But outside of the historical aspects of Hearst... Why didn't someone in Deadwood just simply put a bullet in Hearst's brain pan, squish!

Because he was a very powerful man and people acting on his behalf would have exacted swift retribution.

I was disappointed in the ending. I don't picture a "law and order" man like Bullock accepting the murder of that girl, even if it saves the camp. I've been bothered by the Bullock - Al alliance for a while (I don't picture them getting over old hates that quickly) and this clinched it for me.

I was disappointed in the ending. I don't picture a "law and order" man like Bullock accepting the murder of that girl, even if it saves the camp. I've been bothered by the Bullock - Al alliance for a while (I don't picture them getting over old hates that quickly) and this clinched it for me.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." The US and the Soviets were allies in WWII ... Hearst was the bigger threat to all in camp. Although, I am disappointed by the stain on Bullock's heretofore pristine "white-hat."

I was disappointed in the ending. I don't picture a "law and order" man like Bullock accepting the murder of that girl, even if it saves the camp. I've been bothered by the Bullock - Al alliance for a while (I don't picture them getting over old hates that quickly) and this clinched it for me.


Bullock accepting the murder of the Trixie look-alike also did not sit well with me...but I also think he grudgingly accepted it because of his friend Star as well as knowing it would * temporarily* keep peace in the camp...the whole thing was pretty awful.

Bullock accepting the murder of the Trixie look-alike also did not sit well with me...but I also think he grudgingly accepted it because of his friend Star as well as knowing it would * temporarily* keep peace in the camp...the whole thing was pretty awful.

But that's just it. I don't think that would have mattered. This is the guy who risked his life to string up a prisoner, while holding off a crowd at gunpoint, because it was legal, rather then letting them lynch the guy (opener of the pilot episode). I don't believe that he would accept that Trixie's life is worth more than the other girls...

And what happened to the midget that was good with a knife???

Fish market hired him to clean & gut sardines? :)

But that's just it. I don't think that would have mattered. This is the guy who risked his life to string up a prisoner, while holding off a crowd at gunpoint, because it was legal, rather then letting them lynch the guy (opener of the pilot episode). I don't believe that he would accept that Trixie's life is worth more than the other girls...

Reason ain't his long suit.

And what happened to the midget that was good with a knife???

He probably would have become a featured charactor had there been a fourth season. :D

Although I greatly want to see the 2 2-hr movies in the future, the more I sit back to think about it - that season finale (though somewhat anti-climactic) was an appropriate one.

It didn't give me what I wanted in the giant gunfight, Hearst ass-kicking, etc., but I think the frustrations we all feel are exactly what Milch probably wanted. Life's rough (and unfair) in the old west.

I like to read the episode guide on HBO.com because I find the dialogue rather "backwards". Anyhow, I've read near the end of the final episode and episode 34 that Bullock has feelings of impotence. I have not picked this up during the shows. Seth can't get the job done in the bedroom with his wife(brother's wife at one time)? Did i miss something lol??

Or is it that he feels helpless/ineffective against Hearst?

Because he was a very powerful man and people acting on his behalf would have exacted swift retribution.


Yes, I agree. He was a powerful man. The show does make it seem as it was all about him running it his way, but without him where then was the power or it would have gone to whom? Some lower Pinkerton thugs? I would guess there would be a second in command and so on.

Take him out and it seems it would have been game over based on what we saw.

I will miss Deadwood but at least there is the four hour season to look forward to...I can do without the Jane/Joannie relationship....and the acting troupe bores me. Cy is getting meaner and meaner...out of control.

Agreed.

I discovered near the end of the season i could fast forward through the acting troupe scenes and never miss anything important.

Joannie seems so one note, tense yet whiny. Sy is one note as well, growling at everything in sight. I don't know if it's his dialogue or his delivery, but I always find him the least comprenshible of the group.

That said, loved the finale.

Yes, I agree. He was a powerful man. The show does make it seem as it was all about him running it his way, but without him where then was the power or it would have gone to whom? Some lower Pinkerton thugs? I would guess there would be a second in command and so on.

Take him out and it seems it would have been game over based on what we saw.

Other corporate officers, his familly, paid off politicians, his shareholders.

The Pinkertons were just hired muscle. If someone had killed Georgie boy rest assured, all or some of the people listed above would have taken control of the corporate army and crushed Deadwood.

Al knew that.

Other corporate officers, his familly, paid off politicians, his shareholders.

The Pinkertons were just hired muscle. If someone had killed Georgie boy rest assured, all or some of the people listed above would have taken control of the corporate army and crushed Deadwood.

Al knew that.

I disagree. If Hearst had been killed early, before buying Alma's claim, I don't think anyone, other than maybe family, would have come there looking for revenge. There's no profit in revenge and that's all corporate officers, paid politicians and shareholders would care about. They'd all be scrambling to hold the Hearst empire together and deadwood was not part of the empire yet.

Al's chance was back when Hearst cut off his finger. It was clear where things were heading and he should have acted then. Plus, he had at least the same (if not more) strength, in town, than Hearst did at that point.

Or is it that he feels helpless/ineffective against Hearst?


That makes sense Gary..Thank you.

We can talk about what the characters would logically be expected to do in those situations, but the writers were constrained by the actual historical record. If Deadwood had been a pure work of fiction, Al or somebody might have killed Hearst, and Alma would not have sold her holdings. And there would have probably been an exciting battle between the army of Hearst's men and the forces of Bullock and Al.

But that's just it. I don't think that would have mattered. This is the guy who risked his life to string up a prisoner, while holding off a crowd at gunpoint, because it was legal, rather then letting them lynch the guy (opener of the pilot episode). I don't believe that he would accept that Trixie's life is worth more than the other girls...


Since the girl was already dead by the time he came on the scene I think he just reluctantly accepted it....unlike my refusal to accept that it really is over, with the possible advent of four additional hours....

:(

I'm still foolishly hoping (probably in vain) that something happens at HBO to at least give us a full fourth season.

Why was Hearst still blindly answering his door even after being shot by Trixie? You would think he'd have a Pinkerton on guard. It's a minor point but it bugs me.

Since so much of Deadwood deviates from fact already I dont think it far fetched that Hearst gets it in the end of the second movie.

Sabrose, I doubt if you've ever read Karl Marx. If you look at history there are numerous examples of robber barons that are industry leaders and giants in nations. There are also good men . Sorry, but life is not a fairy tale. If you want fantasy go watch reruns of Bonanza.

Some interesting points

- Johnny should have killed Trixie. How could Al have said anything to him as far as acting to save his favored girl, since Al was doing the same thing?

It seems to me that if Johnny had killed Trixie in an attempt to save the other whore's life, he would have signed his own death warrant. Al had made clear that it was his intention to save Trixie and Al was not a man to brook being crossed, especially by one of his own employees.

There was one bit of dialog that i am frank to admit I did not understand.

As Alma completes her deal to sell her claim to Hearst and is walking past Hearst to leave his room, hearst sniffs and says to Alma, "You've changed your scent." The following then ensues:

Seth: [To Hearst] Can’t shut up! Every bully I ever met can’t shut his f**kin’ mouth…except when he’s afraid.

Hearst: You mistake for fear, Mr. Bullock, what is in fact preoccupation. I’m having a conversation you cannot hear.

I don't understand what Hearst's "preoccupation" and the "conversation" Bullock "cannot hear" might have been. What could that have been about?

Finally, I was amazed at the ever increasing squalor in which Hearst lived. He had slept on the floor from the beginning because of his back but as time passed he tore out more and more walls, leaving only the studs in nearly every wall, including the outside wall, until his room was a mess.

There was one bit of dialog that i am frank to admit I did not understand.

As Alma completes her deal to sell her claim to Hearst and is walking past Hearst to leave his room, hearst sniffs and says to Alma, "You've changed your scent." The following then ensues:

Seth: [To Hearst] Can’t shut up! Every bully I ever met can’t shut his f**kin’ mouth…except when he’s afraid.

Hearst: You mistake for fear, Mr. Bullock, what is in fact preoccupation. I’m having a conversation you cannot hear.

I don't understand what Hearst's "preoccupation" and the "conversation" Bullock "cannot hear" might have been. What could that have been about?

Finally, I was amazed at the ever increasing squalor in which Hearst lived. He had slept on the floor from the beginning because of his back but as time passed he tore out more and more walls, leaving only the studs in nearly every wall, including the outside wall, until his room was a mess.


I believe the conversation was about Alma and he was being a cocky bastard by indirect insult. He was getting a dig in. He was basically saying he was above Bullock and Bullock was not privy to his "relationship" or "conversation" with Alma. Hearst also knew Bullock was with Alma. Maybe he was also saying he could have Alma if he wanted. He did kill Ellsworth after all.

I disagree. If Hearst had been killed early, before buying Alma's claim, I don't think anyone, other than maybe family, would have come there looking for revenge. There's no profit in revenge and that's all corporate officers, paid politicians and shareholders would care about. They'd all be scrambling to hold the Hearst empire together and deadwood was not part of the empire yet.

Al's chance was back when Hearst cut off his finger. It was clear where things were heading and he should have acted then. Plus, he had at least the same (if not more) strength, in town, than Hearst did at that point.


I agree. As tough as Hearst was and even with the power behind him, cut of the head of the snake.

There was one bit of dialog that i am frank to admit I did not understand.

As Alma completes her deal to sell her claim to Hearst and is walking past Hearst to leave his room, hearst sniffs and says to Alma, "You've changed your scent." The following then ensues:

Seth: [To Hearst] Can’t shut up! Every bully I ever met can’t shut his f**kin’ mouth…except when he’s afraid.

Hearst: You mistake for fear, Mr. Bullock, what is in fact preoccupation. I’m having a conversation you cannot hear.

I don't understand what Hearst's "preoccupation" and the "conversation" Bullock "cannot hear" might have been. What could that have been about?

Finally, I was amazed at the ever increasing squalor in which Hearst lived. He had slept on the floor from the beginning because of his back but as time passed he tore out more and more walls, leaving only the studs in nearly every wall, including the outside wall, until his room was a mess.

My thought was that Hearst was "preoccupied" with his decision to leave the camp and go the Montana. I would gueass his internal conversation was weighing how much he wanted to get into the mud with people he thought below him before leaving the camp.

Why was Hearst still blindly answering his door even after being shot by Trixie? You would think he'd have a Pinkerton on guard. It's a minor point but it bugs me.


Good point.

Why was Hearst still blindly answering his door even after being shot by Trixie? You would think he'd have a Pinkerton on guard. It's a minor point but it bugs me.


Hearst said he was not afraid.

Wow, what a finish. All that buildup, and it appears that Hurst played them the whole time. He knew the Russian telegraph operator would report the apparent "coded" message to bring muscle ("bricks") in order to destroy the town, and what the reactions of the townsmen would be. Every action of his was designed to show what a total bada$$ he was, the more to burnish his image as a man who would stop at nothing to get what he wants. That included not showing any fear, even after he got shot. And Hurst may well have recognized the dead whore was not Trixie, but at that point, it served his interest to pretend it was. His plan was progressing nicely. Once he had Alma's signature, his work was done. The last feeble insult from Bullock was meant with a look of bemused contempt as he rode off to his next opportunity - the conquering general leaving the field, a winner once again.

One wonders if Trixie will commit suicide because of her guilt over an innocent girl dying in her place?

If Gerald McRainy doesn't win a best supporting actor Emmy for this performance next year, there's even less justice than there was in Deadwood. He was amazing.

Hearst had a guard on the stairs leading to his room. The guards were shown to be inspecting people for weapons. Hearst not being an idiot, I'd suspect Charlie Utter was on his "watch list" and probably got frisked before going up.

I hadn't noticed the guard but you really don't need a weapon to kill someone. I'd still think a guard should announce him and only leave at Hearst's instruction.

Maybe I'm thinking too much in today's environment, but I would have thought with Hearst's stature and great wealth, that he would have bodyguards with him everywhere, including outside his door and even in his room. In fact, it seemed too easy for someone to pick him off standing on his makeshift balcony.

...that Hurst played them the whole time. ...

Sorry to be nitpicky but, the guy's name is Hearst, as in Hearst Publishing, not Hurst as in Hurst Shifters

Sorry to be nitpicky but, the guy's name is Hearst, as in Hearst Publishing, not Hurst as in Hurst Shifters

:rolleyes: Dude, if we start correcting every misspelling or typo we see on this forum, the servers will crash.

:rolleyes: Dude, if we start correcting every misspelling or typo we see on this forum, the servers will crash.

Dude, didn't mean to single you out, but I felt that some clarification was appropriate.

Also, there is a difference between correcting an typo/misspelling and correcting the incorrect spelling of a character's name, as well as well known historical figure.

Also, there is a difference between correcting an typo/misspelling and correcting the incorrect spelling of a character's name, as well as well known historical figure.

Dude, not to nitpick, but proper English requires an "a" before a hard consonant sound, not an "an". That's sort of a well known grammatical rule. :rolleyes:

Dude, didn't mean to single you out, but I felt that some clarification was appropriate.

Also, there is a difference between correcting an typo/misspelling and correcting the incorrect spelling of a character's name, as well as well known historical figure.
On the other hand, some might view the correction as having arisen from an irresistible impulse to play "GOTCHA!". :)

A little more seriously, it is almost always a good idea to learn something about the culture of any message board or Usenet newsgroup before offering corrections to the spelling of people's names.

Wow, what a finish. All that buildup, and it appears that Hurst played them the whole time. He knew the Russian telegraph operator would report the apparent "coded" message to bring muscle ("bricks") in order to destroy the town, and what the reactions of the townsmen would be. Every action of his was designed to show what a total bada$$ he was, the more to burnish his image as a man who would stop at nothing to get what he wants. That included not showing any fear, even after he got shot. And Hurst may well have recognized the dead whore was not Trixie, but at that point, it served his interest to pretend it was. His plan was progressing nicely. Once he had Alma's signature, his work was done. The last feeble insult from Bullock was meant with a look of bemused contempt as he rode off to his next opportunity - the conquering general leaving the field, a winner once again.

One wonders if Trixie will commit suicide because of her guilt over an innocent girl dying in her place?

If Gerald McRainy doesn't win a best supporting actor Emmy for this performance next year, there's even less justice than there was in Deadwood. He was amazing.
I agree entirely. Hearst was a brilliant, manipulative guy who had the resources to do a LOT of manipulation. The interpretation that he left the field knowing full well that he was a winner -- again -- makes a lot of sense to me.

McRaney was great as Hearst, which makes me think that Milch is a genius when it comes to casting. He put exactly the right actor in exactly the right role over and over again in Deadwood. Everybody recognizes how wonderful Ian McShane was as Al but I thought that virtually everybody else in Deadwood's amazingly strong cast hit their performances on the head, too. Molly Parker as Alma and Powers Boothe as Cy come immediately to mind.

110% in agreement McRainey needs an Emmy!
Powers Boothe and Ian McShane could use one too.

110% in agreement McRainey needs an Emmy!
Powers Boothe and Ian McShane could use one too.

And others too numerous to mention.

Very nice season, but I was really dissappointed with the lack of the Doc this season. Any mention as to why they used him so little? He is my favorite character and Brad Dourif(sp?) was amazing last season.

His charactor was more than likely on his way out being a lunger and all.

Very nice season, but I was really dissappointed with the lack of the Doc this season. Any mention as to why they used him so little? He is my favorite character and Brad Dourif(sp?) was amazing last season.

I would have prefered more Doc, and whole lot less of Langrishe and the rest of the troupe.

There was one bit of dialog that i am frank to admit I did not understand. [stuff deleted]
Hearst: You mistake for fear, Mr. Bullock, what is in fact preoccupation. I’m having a conversation you cannot hear.

I don't understand what Hearst's "preoccupation" and the "conversation" Bullock "cannot hear" might have been. What could that have been about?


I took that to be about Hearst's belief in his ability to communicate with the Earth to divine where the "color" is. I believe he spoke several times about this ability in past episodes.

I took that to be about Hearst's belief in his ability to communicate with the Earth to divine where the "color" is. I believe he spoke several times about this ability in past episodes.
Yes, that very well could have been it. Now that I think of it, the line was very much in Hearst's character. He made clear time and time again that all he cares about in life is "finding the color," and that he will do anything to get it.

I, too, was fond of Brad Dourif's Doc. Characters who, like Doc, have been indelibly marked by a bad war are fascinating. Doc saw way too much of death in the Late Unpleasantness.

Hearst said he was not afraid.True, he did say that. But I notice he took plenty of precautions when he watched Al open the "fake Trixie's" coffin. The look of Al with that blade in his hand seemed to change his outlook on whether "caution" could be interpreted as "fear".

I agree entirely. Hearst was a brilliant, manipulative guy who had the resources to do a LOT of manipulation. The interpretation that he left the field knowing full well that he was a winner -- again -- makes a lot of sense to me.

McRaney was great as Hearst, which makes me think that Milch is a genius when it comes to casting. He put exactly the right actor in exactly the right role over and over again in Deadwood. Everybody recognizes how wonderful Ian McShane was as Al but I thought that virtually everybody else in Deadwood's amazingly strong cast hit their performances on the head, too. Molly Parker as Alma and Powers Boothe as Cy come immediately to mind.

I think McRaney is going to consider this role to be his 'highlight reel'
Besides the great casting, great dialogue, Milch allows actors to *act* for once. Everyone else assumes the audience is dimwitted, so all the dialogue is delivered in short, stupid sentences, and actors are forced to act in an exagerated manner...just to be sure the 'stupid' audience understands. Reading between the lines, the subtle little mannerisms was a big part of watching Deadwood. I'm really going to miss it, and I suspect those poor actors will too.

I think McRaney is going to consider this role to be his 'highlight reel'
Besides the great casting, great dialogue, Milch allows actors to *act* for once. Everyone else assumes the audience is dimwitted, so all the dialogue is delivered in short, stupid sentences, and actors are forced to act in an exagerated manner...just to be sure the 'stupid' audience understands. Reading between the lines, the subtle little mannerisms was a big part of watching Deadwood. I'm really going to miss it, and I suspect those poor actors will too.
Yes, McShane and McRaney in particular probably fear that they will never again have roles as meaty as they enjoyed on Deadwood. Another would be Molly Parker whose Alma will live in my memory. I shall never forget her conversation with the nanny, Miss Isringhousen, in which she agonizes over whether she should leave town with Seth, although Seth's wife and stepson had arrived:

"We do love each other. Our being together ought not to seem so outlandish a proposition…except for every other single thing."

Wow, that is sad but, boy, what a great show!

Lifted from orbitcast.com. Too bad I'll miss most of it.

Deadwood may have ended on HBO, but SIRIUS Outlaw Country still has Deadwood Radio.

Join host W. Earl Brown (who plays the knife-weilding, eye-gouging, Dan Dority) and his fellow cast members include: Ian McShane (Al Swearengen), John Hawkes (Sol Star), Keith Carradine (Wild Bill Hickok), Sean Bridgers (Johnny Burns), Robin Wiegert (Calamity Jane), Geri Jewell (Jewel... oddly enough), Jim Beaver (Ellsworth), Keone Young (Wu!), and Peter Jason (Con Stapelton). They'll all get together, regrettably without any whiskey, and revisit one-by-one all 12 episodes of this season's Deadwood and play hand-picked music throughout the day.

The Deadwood Radio Marathon runs all day, September 4th, on SIRIUS Outlaw Country (ch 63). Give it a listen... you Hoopleheads.

Wow! My wife has Sirius in her car (not a portable device). Wonder if she'll have any problem with me spending the entire Labor Day holiday holed up out in her vehicle? Maybe she'll bring me food..... :)

Reading between the lines, the subtle little mannerisms was a big part of watching Deadwood.

Good point. I was just watching the episode again, and noticed at the end when Al is explaining the situation to Bullock and group (about having a knife and killing Hearst if he figures him out, and that he'll speak of them in heaven, etc.). He makes one comment at the end (don't remember which) which was said to all, but you could tell was directed at Bullock. Anyway, the nice part was Olyphant looks down and then does a subtle look up and raises his eyes as if "Hey, that was directed to me!".

Like you said, very subtle part that made the scene.

Good point. I was just watching the episode again, and noticed at the end when Al is explaining the situation to Bullock and group (about having a knife and killing Hearst if he figures him out, and that he'll speak of them in heaven, etc.). He makes one comment at the end (don't remember which) which was said to all, but you could tell was directed at Bullock. Anyway, the nice part was Olyphant looks down and then does a subtle look up and raises his eyes as if "Hey, that was directed to me!".

Like you said, very subtle part that made the scene.
Here is what Al said:

"Al: We show united in the prelude when he’s [Hearst] making his entrance and the f**king like. Comes to viewing the body, I stand for virtue alone. The deception failing, I’ll make a pass at him with my blade. In the aftermath, play the lie as mine, knowing I speak of you in heaven. Others owe thought to the future—their thinking straightforward don’t come that naturally to.

As Al begins to speak, he addresses his remarks to everybody with him. In addition to Bullock, Charley, Blazanov, and Merrick are standing at the bar with Al. But as Al says the last sentence of his speech, after first having stopped talking to take a drink of whiskey directly from the bottle, he looks at Bullock, who has his head down. But immediately after Al finishes speaking, Bullock looks directly at Al, clearly understanding that Al had been talking to him."

It's impossible to overstate just how smart, subtle, and often beautiful, Deadwood was. It will be missed!

Deadwood's respect for its audience is remarkable. To use dialog that you sometimes have to read over several times after the fact to fully digest is unique, as far as I'm aware. Has there ever been a series where each week, members of a forum quote the choice lines?

R.I.P.

Going OT for a sec, there's finally some "official" word on Milch's 'Deadwood' replacement, 'John from Cincinnati':

The pilot, which Milch is writing with author Kem Nunn, revolves around a surfing family in a California beach town whose lives are disrupted by John, a wealthy young man who wants to take surfing lessons.

Sounds pretty benign so far..... they axed 'Deadwood' for this? Maybe John will harbor some deep dark secret; perhaps he's a serial killer! Don't see much of that on TV, eh? ;)

Great scene with Al. I often played scenes back with the CC on to read what Milch wrote. It is as beautiful and clear as Shakespearean lines sometimes.

In the aftermath of Deadwood's apparent demise a friend of mine wrote me the following as a Deadwood ending:

".....as Hearst rides out of town, Bullock pursues him and beats the crap out of him. Then he and Al and the rest break through the back of the scenery, Mel Brooks style, ride into Hollywood, to HBO, where they find the Weinstein Bros. and beat the living crap out of them."

I love it!

Has there ever been a series where each week, members of a forum quote the choice lines?



Yes. Buffy the Vampire Slayer its still quoted frequently actually. I wonder if Deadwood will have the same longevity with only some 36 or so episodes?

This was the first season I really enjoyed. I watched the first episode of season one and first two episodes of season 2 but it never grabbed me like this one did. For me as a relative outsider I wonder was this season that much better then the previous or worse because I was able to enjoy it or a third option did I change...

In any case I too am saddened that this was the final season of Deadwood.

I was a little dismissive about the last episode when I posted shortly after seeing it. But now that I have had a chance to reflect I think that I underrated it. For example a wonderful exchange between Charley Utter and Seth Bullock passed over my head the first time. Bullock was clearly concerned about having allowed Hearst to leave town, although Bullock knew that Al's young whore was murdered only because Hearst had insisted on retribution for his having been shot. As Hearst drives off, the follwing exchange between Charley and Seth takes place:

Charlie: You done fu**ing good.
Seth: I did fu**ing nothing.
Charlie: That’s often a tough one, in aid of the larger purpose.
Seth: Which is laying head to pillow, not confusing yourself with a sucker?
Charlie: Far as I ever get.
Seth: ‘Cause that’s gonna be a project tonight.

That was subtle, sad, and strong, all three, I think.

And the last scene as Al talks to Johnny, who had loved in his way the murdered young whore, as Al cleans her blood from his office floor moved me:

Johnny: Did she suffer?
Al: I was gentle as I was able, and that’s the last we’ll fu**ing speak of it, Johnny. (Johnny nods and walks away) Wants me to tell him something pretty. (He returns to scrubbing the bloodstain. The screen fades to black.)

That was a great ending!

Wants me to tell him something pretty. (He returns to scrubbing the bloodstain. The screen fades to black.)

That was a great ending!

And don't forget it shows the casket next to him as he's scrubbing the blood. Like I said earlier, that last scene to me was a not so thinly veiled comment by Milch to all those who hated that the bad guy (i.e. Hearst) won in the end.

As if to say "yea, they expect some hollywood ending".

I keep hearing in certain posts here that this episode was the end, but I thought there was to be 4 more hours. Has that changed? Anything in concrete yet?
If there is more, does anyone think that Aunt Lou will be sent for and if so, will she go?
If there are 4 more hours, I believe we are in for a wild ride. There is a lot to wrap up.

They (HBO) annouced an agreement with Milch to do (2) 2-hour movies to wrap things up. There is some speculation that they won't go through with it, however. If they do, it probably won't air for quite some time (maybe 1 - 2 yrs off?). Apparently it has not been verified that their is a contract in place, and Milch is working on another project now.

Johnny: Did she suffer?
Al: I was gentle as I was able, and that’s the last we’ll fu**ing speak of it, Johnny. (Johnny nods and walks away) Wants me to tell him something pretty. (He returns to scrubbing the bloodstain. The screen fades to black.)

That was a great ending!


I truly hope we get our 4 more hours...I agree the ending with Johnny and Al was emotional....This was one murder Al did not want to commit....the whole thing was pretty troubling...life is not fair...especially in Deadwood.

Deadwood's respect for its audience is remarkable. To use dialog that you sometimes have to read over several times after the fact to fully digest is unique, as far as I'm aware. Has there ever been a series where each week, members of a forum quote the choice lines?

R.I.P.


Seinfeld...but that language was a little easier to understand lol...

I will miss Deadwood....it was one of a very few shows I looked forward to watching "live".....

I found this interview with Ian McShane.




http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/story/429337p-361989c.html

Thanks for posting the find. Interesting to read about f---ing grandfather McShane. (Edit out the link's initial 'i" and it's fixed.) -- John

I hope Milch wrote his Shrek 3 - Capt. Hook dialog. That would be hilarious.

Good read thanks for the link.

Milch dialog in a familly film...nah, I don't think so.

Topics merged.

HBO can suck it as Deadwood was one of my favorite shows..now what the (*^( )***&*& (*^(*^$%(&$ am i suppose to watch?

I can't stop thinking about what will happen to Ellsworth's dog. Damn them, now I'll never know what became of the scruffy little guy...

There is an interesting article in the NYT today concerning the new season of the Wire. But it was the introductory paragraph that made me think of Deadwood:

"A good villain is hard to find. To create a truly wicked character, one dastardly enough to be loathsome but complex enough to fascinate, is among the most challenging tasks a writer faces. To slowly twist readers or viewers around until they sympathize with the very same character is a feat only for the foolhardy or the brilliant."

Now the writer was referring to the character of Stringer Bell from the Wire. But I could not help but think that paragraph applied better to Deadwood and was a perfect description Ian McShanes' Al Swearengen.

Thanks Mr. Milch, brilliant indeed.

What are the chances that HBO will show the three seasons in HD again? I'd certainly watch Deadwood from the beginning. I would love to watch those early episodes knowing the characters better and besides, I didn't have an HD receiver until midway through the first season.

I know I could watch the DVDs, but I'd like to see it in HD, without more than the cost of HBO, which I'm already paying.

I think they'll show all the seasons in HD again, they own the show, they might as well try to use it to their benefit.
Has HBO shown Carnivale in HD, both Seasons, since they dropped the ax on them? I didn't notice.

Carnivale (is it spelled with an "e" ?) has not been shown in HD since its cancellation. That was one of the reasons I was concerned about reairings of Deadwood.

Well, now you have me worried! Oh well, I suppose I'll be 1st in line when they release Deadwood on HD-DVD or whatever.
Yeah, they spelled Carnivale with the 'e' for some reason. I didn't HDTV when Carnivale was out, now I really want to see it in HD! Great show, great sets, probably a real treat in HD.

I really want to see it in HD! Great show, great sets, probably a real treat in HD.


Yes to all of the above. Just an unsatisfactory ending.

Not “Deadwood” Yet
By Ellen Gray Philadelphia Daily News in her blog January 13, 2007

David Milch knows there are "Deadwood" fans who've vowed to boycott "John From Cincinnati," the new HBO series about surfing for which he's perceived by some to have abandoned the Old West.

And he doesn't want any trouble.

The "NYPD Blue" co-creator took time out from discussions of string theory and William James (don't ask) to address the "Deadwood" die-hards through the people who've had to answer a lot of the anguished e-mails:

"The first thing I'd say to them is thanks for appreciating the work that we've done. And you know, I spent a significant portion of yesterday in collaboration with Evan Wright, who's a wonderful writer, with whom I'm doing the first of the two 'Deadwood' two-hour films. And we're very optimistic about the outcome of that work, and it's our intention that just the moment that we complete production on 'John From Cincinnati' to begin work on that.

"Having said which, you know that the closed -- the kind of emotional contract that a viewer makes with a series when it works, when that contract is sort of signed by both parties -- that's the thing, as an artist and as actors, we dream about. And certainly there was a kind of abrupt rupture that occurred that is difficult for me to adjust to. It was enormously difficult for the actors to adjust to...You know, the sun rises every morning whether or not we agree to acknowledge that fact. We're going to put 'John From Cincinnati' on, and it's my deepest hope that, in the scheme of things, enough forgiveness is available from those viewers to just give it, like, a chance. And if I'm given strength and time, we're definitely going to do more 'Deadwoods.' "

http://blogs.phillynews.com/dailynews/ellengray/

In other words, we screwed up letting Deadwood die prematurely, but please don't take it out on my new show John From Cincinnati.

I have to wonder what "it's our intention" and "given strength and time" actually means for us hoping to see more Deadwood. Still doesn't sound like a firm commitment.

A graduate seminar on Milch-ology:
The creator of 'Deadwood' speaks
From Maureen Ryan’s Chicago Tribune blog “The Watcher” January 13, 2007

I don’t know what David Milch is talking about. And I mean that in the best possible way.

On Friday, here that the TCA press tour in Pasadena, there was a panel on Milch’s new show, “John From Cincinnati.” As far as I could gather from the short compilation of clips shown before the panel discussion of the show, there’s an alien. And surfing. Aside from that, I’d be hard-pressed to tell you what the show is about.

Not that it really mattered for this press panel, in which the cast of the show and Milch and co-creator Kem Nunn were assembled on a stage, before an array of television critics and writers.

In these panels, usually, the actors talk, the producer talk, there’s banter, there’s interplay, there’s the usual array of dumb questions and interesting questions, blah blah blah.

Not so this time. This panel was more or less a graduate seminar in Milch-ology. I mean, the man just speaks. And you’re held spellbound, partly because he just has so many deep things to say, partly because you don’t really understand what he’s talking about, and your brain freezes after it more or less gives up on keeping up with that of Milch, the creator of “Deadwood” and one of the driving forces behind “NYPD Blue’s” glory years.

But, to be practical here for a second, before I get to his theories on William James, the nature of reality, string theory and the zen of surfing, here are his thoughts on “Deadwood,” and on the fact that instead of making a full fourth season of that great show, we are getting a 4-hour wrap up movie instead, so that Milch can concentrate on “John.”

Here are Milch's answers on "Deadwood." (By the way, the transcript excerpts below were provided by the Television Critics Association.)

Ellen Gray of the Philadelphia Inquirer asked this question:

Gray: “… it may be sort of a perverse compliment, but there are fans of ‘Deadwood’ who pretty much declared there's no way they're going to watch ‘John From Cincinnati,’ whatever it is.

Milch: "Yeah."

Gray: “Because, you know, it means that you're not doing ‘Deadwood.’ What do you say to them? Or is there anything you can say to them?’

Milch: “Well, the first thing I'd say to them is thanks for appreciating the work that we've done. And you know, I spent a significant portion of yesterday in collaboration with Evan Wright, who's a wonderful writer, with whom I'm doing the first of the two ‘Deadwood’ 2-hour films. And we're very optimistic about the outcome of that work, and it's our intention that just the moment that we complete production on ‘John From Cincinnati’ to begin work on that.

“Having said which, you know that the closed -- the kind of emotional contract that a viewer makes with a series when it works, when that contract is sort of signed by both parties -- that's the thing, as an artist and as actors, we dream about.

"And certainly there was a kind of abrupt rupture that occurred that is difficult for me to adjust to. It was enormously difficult for the actors to adjust to. But you know, there are certain rooms where one frequently hears the expression 'life on life's terms.'

"And if anyone can really make it work on some other terms, I mean, [through drug use] I embarked on a 30-year research project trying to make that happen, trying to set my own terms for how I was going to experience reality. And all I got was, you know, peripheral neuritis and a lot of phlebitis in my veins.

“So I hope that -- you know, the sun rises every morning whether or not we agree to acknowledge that fact. We're going to put ‘John From Cincinnati’ on, and it's my deepest hope that, in the scheme of things, enough forgiveness is available from those viewers to just give it, like, a chance.”

Later, I asked if, in a perfect world, he would have rather ended “Deadwood with a full fourth season of 12 episodes -- if that would have been his ideal option -- or whether the 4-hour miniseries was enough for him. Here’s his answer:

Milch: “You know, the big thing to keep in mind when you hear those sorts of statements -- that I had planned on a fourth season on this -- I'm a sociopath.” (Laughter.) …

“You know, someone asked me, how long do you intend to do ‘Deadwood’? And part of my sociopathology, I say, ‘Well, when does my contract run out?’ And I realize my contract ran out at the end of four seasons. So I'm thinking, ‘How does the kid exert the most leverage in the negotiating package for four seasons?’ I don't know if I want to do any more after that.

“But the truth is I try to show up each day available to do the work that God or whatever it is that's making, you know, the solar system work wants me to do. And I expect when he wants me to stop, I'll be the first to find out. So the answer is, I never had a specific -- listen, when I pitched ‘Deadwood,’ I pitched it as a series set in Rome at the time of the Nero. Does that sound like I know what I'm talking about? (Laughter.)

"... [HBO’s president of entertainment] Caroline and [HBO CEO] Chris Albrecht said, ‘Jeez, it's so interesting, but we're doing a show about Rome. Can you set it somewhere else?’ I said, ‘Deadwood, 1876.’”

And then the panel was over. If you’re thinking, that wasn’t much of an answer, well, you’re probably right. But something about the way Milch’s mind works is so improbably entertaining and profound and funny that, well, you just go with it. I mean, here’s how he explained, in part, what the show was about:

“I guess that's what I was trying to say in this answer [in a previous interview] that to my mind reality is a shifting and elusive condition. It redefines itself constantly. …

“And which is to say that, when I was saying that this is a story that takes place on the margins of things, the attempt to identify the coordinates of reality is itself a kind of problematic and conditional effort. It's changing all the time.

"What constitutes -- where are we when we sleep? What is our sense of reality at that moment? It's, you know, science now suggests to us that what has been perceived as matter for a long time is, in fact, energy. That what looks solid, in fact, is constituted in waves, that Einstein's beautiful mathematical equations which depict the nature of reality don't apply at certain levels. And I think that's true as well about what constitutes the natural and the supernatural. You know, it depends on what foxhole you're in.”

Yes. Exactly. That's what I always say. But be aware that this wasn’t the most complicated, profound, metaphysical, confounding, confusing thing that he said, though. I essentially gave up typing after awhile. And as for the woman who is paid by TCA to type up transcripts of every session, well, as another colleague said, buy that woman a drink. Because here’s what Milch said in response to a question about where he drew his inspiration from:

“William James -- and several of the actors have attempted to take their lives in the aftermath of my protracted speaking about William James.” (laughter)

“William James said something to the -- among other things – ‘If this life be not a real fight, then it's merely a private theatrical from which one may withdraw at will, but it feels like a real fight -- as if there were something wild in the universe which we with all of our idealities and faithfulnesses are called upon to redeem.’

“And it has seemed ... there is a continuity between the themes which [Kem Nunn's] novels raise and what this series tries to examine, and to the extent that we were saying before that reality can sometimes be a little problematic and so on and there are now -- I know I heard several of you discussing string theory in the corridors earlier. (Laughter). …

“And the idea being, string theory postulating that the idea of four dimensions, which are agreed upon, is very conditional and that more than likely the only thing that accounts for the variances in the universe between Einstein's ideas and what we actually see is that there are unseen dimensions. And that's sort of the predicate of string theory, of Stephen Hawking and so on.

“And what William James speculated was that there are what he called the lawless intrusions. He was fascinated by psychic phenomenon, and what James suggested was that whatever originated the universe, the Big Bang was a chaotic energy, which is now tending toward order. And that for the most part, we can account through certain theorems with all of the phenomena of our experience, but that there are certain abrupt and lawless inexplicable intrusions through essentially what would be described as tears in the fabric of the dimensions we perceive – [hence] John from Cincinnati.”

How that all translates into a 1-hour weekly drama, I have no idea. But you know, of course I’ll watch the show. Mainly to see how well versed this stranger John is in string theory and William James.

http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2007/01/a_graduate_semi.html#more

Good find Fredfa!
Milch is so interesting that it seem impossible that any project he works on will be any less interesting.

Another Look at David Milch
By Lisa de Moraes The Washington Post Sunday, January 14, 2007

Sitting in a ballroom jammed with TV critics listening to David Milch pontificate about his new HBO series, "John From Cincinnati," is a lot like Audrey Hepburn sitting in that divey Paris nightclub jammed with beatniks listening to Prof. Flostre explore "empathicalism" in "Funny Face" -- you know, the flick that Gap ad for skinny black pants was snatched from.

The guy's got an ego the size of Saskatchewan, he yaks on endlessly about who knows what, which nobody understands but they worship him anyway because he sounds sooooo brainy and makes them feel like they're not just the guys stuck covering "1 vs. 100." Heck no -- they're empathicalists!

Milch, best known for his work on ABC's "NYPD Blue" and, more recently, HBO's "Deadwood," has created "John From Cincinnati." HBO says "JFC" is about a family of super-surfers living in Imperial Beach, Calif. There's now-ascetically-withdrawn (TV Column note: but still hot) grandfather Mitch (played by Bruce Greenwood), his gifted-surfer grandson Shaun (Greyson Fletcher), Shaun's addicted derelict dad Butchie (Brian Van Holt) and frustrated grandma Cissy (Rebecca De Mornay).

Milch and the cast came to Winter TV Press Tour 2007 late one day, allegedly to discuss the new series. It started much like any other press tour Q&A session:

Critic: "David, how did you come up with this?"

Milch: "This is a project which started to gestate six or seven years ago and I guess two years ago Kem [Nunn, co-creator and exec producer] and I began to collaborate on 'Deadwood' and HBO . . . suggested we might adapt some of the materials I had been working on in another context in collaboration with Kem and engage the venue of surfing. Is that a sufficiently opaque and tedious presentation?"

Critic: "This is as far from the other stuff as we've seen, because you've done gritty places and so on . . . very different from California and the beaches. What is it about it that attracted you?"

Milch [sarcastically]: "Did you find that scene where Butchie was [shooting up] sufficiently pastoral?"

Feeling he'd sufficiently put down the critics -- an important part of their relationship -- Milch settles in and truly gets into his groove. Some choice examples:

"One man's mystical is another man's day-to-day. As Luis Guzman, the wonderful character actor, remarked, 'If you do that where I'm from, we build you a shrine.' In other words, no one thinks that -- so how people deal with the abrupt entrance into their lives of what might be explained or discounted is sort of the subject of the material."

"Reality is a shifting and elusive condition. It redefines itself constantly. The actors find one of my most endearing qualities my insistence after they have located and beautifully conveyed the state of mind or spirit of a character, I'll say, 'Can you try and suggest simultaneously the exact opposite?' "

(Milch turns and looks at De Mornay, sitting next to him onstage, and begins to stroke her arm, while De Mornay scowls and generally looks like she'd like to kill the HBO flunkie who decided she should sit next to Milch.)

"When I was saying that this is a story that takes place on the margins of things, the attempt to identify the coordinates of reality is itself a kind of problematic and conditional effort. It's changing all the time. What constitutes -- where are we when we sleep? What is our sense of reality at that moment? Science now suggests to us that what has been perceived as matter for a long time is, in fact, energy." (Some critics have begun to droop. Others are still upright, but their eyes are glazing over. Still others have put on headphones and are quietly listening to music on their Nanos.)

"I don't know how many of you are familiar with Mr. Nunn's novels, but as opposed to a rank imposter, he's an extraordinary surfer and an extraordinary novelist. And there is a continuity between the themes which his novels raise and what this series tries to examine, and to the extent that we were saying before that reality can sometimes be a little problematic and so on, and there are now -- I know I heard several of you discussing string theory in the corridors earlier."

One of the last critics left conscious asked: "If you could have finished ['Deadwood'] with a 12-episode fourth season, would that have been your . . . first choice?"

Milch: "You know, the big thing to keep in mind when you hear those sort of statements, that I had planned on a fourth season on this -- I'm a sociopath."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/13/AR2007011301124_pf.html

Jeez, Milch and HBO, wtf were you thinking? Probably about saving $2-3 million per episode in costumes, sets and salaries

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=24&entry_id=17216
"Deadwood" fans, your heads are about to explode.

I've had the "John From Cincinnati" DVD for a while now. The first three episodes. But you know me, I'm never in a rush to watch something if I've got other things going on. You know, like life. And something inside - some inner warning system - indicated it might be a better idea to put off watching these episodes as long as possible. After all, I'm a huge "Deadwood" fan and the abrupt ending to that series still leaves me peeved. What if I watched and "John From Cincinnati" was bad?

If you don't know what's coming next, you don't watch enough television: "John From Cincinnati" is bad. I love David Milch and he's definitely a misunderstood visionary and a real character in the TV business. But this show is a total mess.

My full review doesn't run until June 10 - it's the cover of the Sunday Pink section. But I figured you might want to get a head start on the anger and mourning and those thoughts of retribution. You know, have your gods ready for blood and all that. No sane person can pretend to know what Milch was thinking. It's his right as an artist and, as I've noted, a misunderstood visionary, to do as he wishes. But HBO? A total blunder. You don't let one of the great series on all of television fizzle out for...uh, for what? And even if those two two-hour movies do get made, they can't make up for the truncated legacy of "Deadwood."

Sad. Really sad.

------
Just to be clear here - I watched the first THREE episodes. Not just the first hour. Mrs. CrankyPants was bored out of her mind and never made it to No. 3. She thought the acting was really, really bad. I think the acting is spotty - some of the smaller roles are really good. That's where some of the Milch writing really shines. But overall it makes almost no sense and the "John" in the title is clownishly annoying. And it was hard - really, really, hard - to see Dayton Callie - Charlie Utter! - reduced to a tatoo-laden drug dealer. It just makes you want "Deadwood" all the more. On the other hand, at least Garret Dillahunt, who plays a doctor (probably only in a couple of episodes) shows you he can be a good guy. I really wanted this to be a cool new series. I'll probably watch a few more later to see what the hell John is all about as a character. But at this point, not only will "Deadwood" fans be apoplectic, but "Carnivale" fans now have another complaint. "John" is not nearly as good.

Tim Goodman is the Television Critic for the San Francisco Chronicle. In addition to criticism, he covers the industry and writes trend and analysis pieces, mostly about failure.

Reading this just makes me sad.

All the more reason I'm glad BSG and Lost have definite endings scheduled. I don't hold out much hope for the Deadwood movies.

I dropped HBO over the loss of Deadwood and Rome. I've switched to Showtime and now enjoy The Tudors, which is not as good as the other two, but still is a pretty good drama in its own right.

However, people really should give Milch's show a chance. From what I've read, it wasn't he who wanted to end Deadwood prematurely; it was HBO.

Sad though it is to contemplate the end of the late lamented Deadwood, there is a ray of sunshine: The DVD set of Season Three ships on June 12. I ordered mine from Amazon yesterday. Now that I have a TiVo Series3 I have a LOT of stuff to watch. Nevertheless, I can guarantee that most if not all of what I record will go unwatched for awhile after I get these last Deadwood DVDs.

The advance word on John From Cincinnati is disappointing. I had hoped it might be good but the signs are not encouraging.