Samsung Blu-ray BDP-1000 - First End User Reports - OWNERS ONLY! [Text View]

BigMikeATL

06-16-06, 02:02 PM

I was tempted to order one from CircuitCity.com last night since I had a 10% off coupon, though I decided not go go through with it due to the fact that I have no idea when the thing will actually ship.

During lunch I decided to stop at a metro-Atlanta big box retailer (who will remain nameless) and what do you know? They have one Samsung Blu-ray player sitting on a high shelf (about 9 feet off the ground) above their TV's.

I paced around wondering if I should ask one of the sales guys to get it down for me, though I was concerned that they would say "We can't sell that until such-and-such-a-date"

So, I waited until the 3 sales guys were out of sight, boosted myself up using the base that the TV's were displayed on, and just BARELY slid the player down. Fortunately, I was nimble enough not to drop the thing or fall on my face.

Concerned that a manager or rep would notice the player and stop me, I held it on the side so the plain white bottom faced outward. I made a quick lap around the dvd players and movies hoping to find ANY Blu-ray title, though there weren't any out. I quickly proceeded to the front only to find 1 line open and a half-dozen people in line. I set the player down as not to reveal what it was (white bottom facing out, top facing the cash registers), waited an agonizing 5 minutes (thankfully they opened two more lines), paid, and walked to my car quickly but calmly.

I checked over my shoulder to make sure no one was chasing me... fortunately, they weren't. The player now sits in the trunk of my car and I have another 4 agonizing hours of work, then 40minutes of traffic, before I can hook it up.

Since I have a HD-A1, I am thinking about posting a quick video review/comparison on YouTube. Anyone interested?

cityscapex5

06-16-06, 02:06 PM

"....During lunch I decided to stop at a metro-Atlanta big box retailer (who will remain nameless) ... I quickly proceeded to the front only to find 1 line open and a half-dozen people in line..."

Best Buy?

rfgmdporsc

06-16-06, 02:24 PM

OK, so should I use the Sammy or the Toshiba to upconvert my regular DVDs.

Rafael

RoboDad

06-16-06, 02:25 PM

Not my personal end-user review (yet!), but here's two from the wolly world of blogs:
Well, I don't know if I would consider that gizmodo blog an actual "review," considering this quote:

We’ll be getting a player next week, but until then...

plazman

06-16-06, 02:26 PM

OK, so should I use the Sammy or the Toshiba to upconvert my regular DVDs.

Rafael

If you have both. try them and see which you prefer....

Likvid

06-16-06, 02:30 PM

Since I have a HD-A1, I am thinking about posting a quick video review/comparison on YouTube. Anyone interested?

Very much appreciated ;)

fire407

06-16-06, 02:31 PM

To the owners:
Does it do variable speed (slo-mo) playback on the HD disks, and how about frame by frame advance? Does it skip to chapters flawlessly? I just want to know how basic DVD functions work other than just "play."

markrubin

06-16-06, 02:36 PM

Moderator

STOP

before you post: are you providing Sammy BD user reports or directly related issues?

if no, do not post here

NemoZorro

06-16-06, 03:03 PM

Any lockups or sound drops? Also, is there a way to check for firmware version?

DaViD Boulet

06-16-06, 04:40 PM

Here are some important things I'd like to learn about the Sammy:

* Can it output a proper 1080p signal with real frame information from 1080p24 film-based encodings? (ie, no bobbing to "fake" 1080p???) Can this be set to 1080p24 in addition to 1080i60 and 1080p60?

* How does it's upconversion for SD material compare?

* Audio performance? Codec support?

cucumbersmell

06-16-06, 04:45 PM

Can the blue lights on the front panel be turned off?

BigMikeATL

06-16-06, 04:47 PM

Neuromancer

06-16-06, 04:48 PM

Couple observations based off of a brief session with SD playback:

HDMI Disconnect:
Unlike the Toshiba HD-A1, disconnecting the HDMI cable will not cause the unit to stop playback.

Parental Control:*
Everytime that I turned Off the BDP-1000 with Invader Zim in the unit, my Parental Control would kick in, asking me for a password. If I failed the password (three times) then tried playback again, it worked without the Parental Control kicking in. If I turned Off the playe without the disc in, then put it into the unit after booting, no Parental Control Error.

Subtitles:*
The unit is always display subtitles, despite me not altering the "Automatic" setting on the unit. I have to cycle through the Subtitles each time I play a disc to get rid of them. Setting the unit to English Subtitles also did not help.

DVD+R DL Media:
Sevral discs would not load the Menu's correctly. Press Disc Menu would show "Menu" on the front LCD, but the video was frozen on the last image. However, the unit is not frozen. Simply press "Forward" and you will get to the proper menu. Rinse and repeat until you get into the actual film.

DVD MP3 Media:
- Navigationaly it is annoying. Unless I am missing something, there is no way to do a Page Up and Page Down through the window. This can make navigating a pain in the ass.
- However, they do allow you to make Playlists (which is nice).

*Added 4:32 PM

barhoram,

I can't see anywhere to turn off the lights. You can only Dim the LCD.

NemoZorro,

I did not see an option. Likely the codes which worked for the other Samsung units will work on the BDP-1000.

Neuromancer

06-16-06, 04:53 PM

* How does it's upconversion for SD material compare?

I have not run a full test on the upscaling capability, but it is on par with the Toshiba HD-A1 with my Incredibles tests (Chapter 2 has some nice stained glass which causes video errors in many DVD units, including the OPDV971H - my main machine).

I have note done a re-calibration of the display (Panasonic TH-42PX50U) to account for the Samsung yet, so I won't be making any formal posts about its upscaling capabilities until later (and most likely when I have it set up on the Optoma H78 projector).

EDIT for clarification.

HDAlien

06-16-06, 05:04 PM

Just received my Samsung. I have only played one SD disc so far (don't have any BD discs). My inital impression is good, the upconversion is excellent from what I've seen so far. I tested boot time by pressing the 'Open' button on the front with the player powered off and timed how long it took for the drawer to open (27 seconds), I then time from pushing the 'Close' button to when the first video began to play (25 seconds). This is not bad at all compared to my Tosh. A1 (open to drawer out time of 44 seconds).

For comparisons sake, my SD DVD player is a Krell Showcase which is a SUPERB DVD player, and at 480P it still beats the A1 upconverting, but my initial impression is the Sammy is slightly better than the Krell. Of course all of this is pretty much meaningless until I can get a BD disc in there.

Charles

DaViD Boulet

06-16-06, 05:18 PM

Amir's impressions (as reported) were that the upscaling of SD material was visibly softer than the Tosh unit. It would be great if someone could directly compare!

kanefsky

06-16-06, 05:24 PM

I have not run a full test on the upscaling capability, but it is on par with the Toshiba HD-A1, as it uses the same Broadcam 7411 chipset for MPEG Decoding. Will try do some more formal testing this weekend if I have the time.

Why would the MPEG decoder chip tell you anything about the upscaling capability?

--
Steve

Neuromancer

06-16-06, 05:29 PM

Why would the MPEG decoder chip tell you anything about the upscaling capability?

--
Steve

Sorry, for some reason I posted the wrong information to my reply (what I posted was an entirely different conversation all together). Damned tabbed browsing. Edited post.

PeterS

06-16-06, 06:14 PM

lymzy

06-16-06, 06:20 PM

It is my understanding that the Samsung player is based on the Sony Reference design and will be quite similar an offering to what Sony has coming out later in the year. Has anyone else heard this?

Sony is using Pio's reference design,last time I heard. Samsung uses their own OPU and Broadcom 7411. Sony uses Sigma Design SoC and an OPU which doesn't support CD?

brez

06-16-06, 10:45 PM

I watched about 30 minutes of a SD DVD (no BDs to try), compared to the Toshiba the picture was a disappointment. I guess it's possible that the TV needs to be calibrated for the Samsung but I did not recalibrate it for the Toshiba either.

The Samsung picture was not as sharp/detailed and the colors seemed off. It's hard to describe. With the Toshiba the picture seemed very natural, I remember thinking it was like watching a film. With the Samsung the picture seemed forced.

I'm sorry if this does not make sense. I will likely watch some more tomorrow and see if I can explain the differences better.

alfbinet

06-16-06, 11:10 PM

It sits in the trunk of my car at the moment. Need to either convince the wife to let me open it, or back it goes...

It is my understanding that the Samsung player is based on the Sony Reference design and will be quite similar an offering to what Sony has coming out later in the year. Has anyone else heard this?

Gosh, I am glad I am not married. You work hard, you should have your toys. One guy on the forum made the comment to the effect she doesn't complain about the number of my toys, and I don't complain about the number of her shoes, new furniture purchase, new car she bought on impluse, etc.

alfbinet

06-16-06, 11:11 PM

And I am 50 and loving it.

DVDO+WESTY=1080p

06-17-06, 12:13 AM

You guys are lucky. Best Buy In Manassas VA had two Samsung's BDP-1000 and they screwed me over by not letting me purchase one. One of their employees got the player for me and I took it to the register. As the cashier was about to scan it a Manager came and said sorry we can't sell this to you we do not have them in the system. I told him that BB in Tysons and Sterling VA are selling them and he said well those stores are going to get sued by Samsung for selling them too early and he took the player (BDP-1000) back to the top of the shelf.. What a bunch of BS if the stuff is out there I should have every right to buy it. BB just lost a 1000 dollar sale over some BS! They said that can sell them on Tues 6/20. I said how do I know you will even have any on Tuesday and he said that they will have plenty, so I just left the store after that and said f this snit@!

Mr Ian B

06-17-06, 12:50 AM

dialog_gvf

06-17-06, 02:12 AM

Amir's impressions (as reported) were that the upscaling of SD material was visibly softer than the Tosh unit. It would be great if someone could directly compare!

Amir DID directly compare, didn't he?

About a decade ago, when ISF calibration started to become available, the big name calibratators were saying that people perceived a properly calibrated set as "soft", when it fact it was showing more detail that was lost due to the torch settings, SVM, etc.

So, when people use the term "soft" I get suspicious. Film is supposed to look soft. The dreaded EE is artificial sharpness.

Gary

Kampfer

06-17-06, 02:14 AM

Neuromancer

06-17-06, 05:03 AM

I have the video hooked up hdmi from player to hdmi on tv. I have audio coaxial from dvd player to harman kardon avr310. Dvd audio set-up to bitstream.

When I hit play, I get a block message on my screen for about 10 seconds indicating the tv does not support multi-audio signal.

I still get 5.1 from my avr 310.

Any other set-up changes I need to do? Could not find any on the manual.

Thanks,

Ian B

The reason why you are getting that messsage is because your television does not support Dolby Digital or DTS decoding. For this reason, the Samsung is telling you that you can't use bitstream for the HDMI (as the television won't decode the audio signal). Your receiver, on the other hand will, so it is not an issue.

The UI on the Samsung is just not well designed. They should have really seperated the HDMI and the digital audio connections in terms of settings, rather than having one master setting (which causes confusion).

Neuromancer

06-17-06, 05:05 AM

And anyone have HDCP issues? The BDP-1000 workes fine on the TH-42PX50U I have, but once I connect it to my Optoma H78, I can't resolve an image at all. The projector just says:

DVI RGB
Searching

and never progresses. If I plug the cable back into the cable box, OPDV971H, Toshiba HD-A1, it works without issue. But the BDP-1000 just won't resolve a picture.

The resolution is set to 720p, and I am using HDMI, as indicated by the light on the front panel.

am1001

06-17-06, 08:50 AM

Hi folks

A big question from the europeans - will the samsung play PAL sd dvds. Because hd-dvd can't.

It would be superb if it could.

thanks!

BenDover

06-17-06, 09:18 AM

The reason why you are getting that messsage is because your television does not support Dolby Digital or DTS decoding. For this reason, the Samsung is telling you that you can't use bitstream for the HDMI (as the television won't decode the audio signal). Your receiver, on the other hand will, so it is not an issue.

The UI on the Samsung is just not well designed. They should have really seperated the HDMI and the digital audio connections in terms of settings, rather than having one master setting (which causes confusion).

your post made me remember that i am going to have an issue with the samsung player, i.e., i don't have hdmi inputs on my receiver so the only way i can get to the LPCM lossless audio is using the analog outputs.

i know people have torn these players apart, how are the DACs on this Samsung unit?

plazman

06-17-06, 09:41 AM

I had posted this on another thread, but believe it belongs here...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been putting my Samsung through the paces as well with an intention of putting out a review after I have seen a few more BD films. Lucily I was able to get both 5th Element and Terminator for a first glance.

Since the questions on start-up times have been addressed (on another thread). Here are some other observations I have made so far:

1. I have now connected using both HDMI and Component. There were no errors when connecting via HDMI but using component on my Panny 50 inch plasma the colors were off. The exact same component connection with same cables work perfectly with the XA-1, but the reds are completely off on my Sammy. So all my tests so far have been using HDMI.

2. I used three different SD DVDs, Mask of Zorro, Lawrence of Arabia and Das Boot. Output at 480p was very good and (unlike others who have reported that the Sammy is softer than their Tosh) I thought perhaps a tad sharper than my XA-1.

3. Upconversion to 1080i was also very good. I tried to switch back and forth between my XA-1 and the Samsung to compare, but I have to declare this department a tie. I was very impressed with the Samsung, moreso because in the past I have bought some of the worst DVD players (inlcluding one upconverting one) from Samsung. The performance of the Samsung (IMHO) was as good as anything.

4. The digital audio is the same for both (I could not tell any difference on DTS and DD disks), although I did feel that the Sammy was a little softer. The analog 5.1 on the XA-1 definitely sounds better. I am not an audiophile (an audio pile as my wife says) so I can't explain this.

So, if I had to choose between the XA-1 and the Samsung as the primary device for SD DVD, I believe the slight edge would go to the Samsung because of the faster load times and slightly sharper 480p performance (JMHO). On the other hand, if you are willing to sacrifice some video performance for better audio then the Tosh may be your choice. In general, I found both products to have very good performance but I was surprised that the Tosh analog 5.1 sounded the best (especially since I have read several complaints about the Tosh audio on this forum).

Now, I have not seen enough BD movies to determine how the players compare. I'll wait for more disks. But so far my quick observations are:

1. The BD 5th Element as has been pointed out numerous times is only slightly better than an upconverted DVD disk. Sounds crazy, but true!

2. The Terminator is very good. I believe not as spectacular for PQ as COR or Serenity, but still awesome. The audio track on this sounds great. IMHO the PQ was very close to the best HD DVD I have seen. However, based on the two disks I have reviewed so far, HD DVD seems to have more colors or there is some processing that makes it have more of a 3-D effect. Again I am not a videophile, but a video pile so I'll look for more technical expertise elsewhere. OTOH, the more subdued colors make Terminator look more 'film-like' than even Serenity.

3. So far, my first impressions (which validates what I had assumed) are that HD DVD looks more refined in general. I am not sure if the color issue is player or format related. The same applies to audio. Since digital co-ax sounds the same for both formats, I am not sure if the analog difference is format or player related.

I did not find any major problems or gliches with the Samsung (apart from component not working for me) and the overall performance so far has been excellent.

The other question that is often raised in about build quality. Here is one area where there is no contest. The Toshiba XA-1 wins hands-down. This is like comparing the body and chassis of a BMW with a Honda Civic. I can see some preferring the slimmer and lighter Samsung over the XA-1, but the materials and the feel of the XA-1 (IMHO) is spectacular.

So, do I think the Samsung is worth it? My answer is that if your purpose is to expand your HD viewing options, absolutely! However, if you want the best HD viewing experience that you can get today, then the XA-1 is still the way to go. You get better performance (so far based on only 2 movies and therefore likely to change when the better BD movies becomes available) because of the format (HD DVD v. BD). However, if you are a BD fan and want to support only that format, the Samsung is a very good product. Much better than any Samsung I have ever owned. However, if you want only one player then waiting for the Sony or Pioneer could be a valid option. Since I have an XA-1 I was looking for a cost effective way to add BD to the mix.

I am looking forward to seeing more BD movies and then updating this observation. I felt the Samsung was a much better upconverting DVD player than I had initially expected. So it could be the same for BD....

plazman

06-17-06, 09:54 AM

Amir's impressions (as reported) were that the upscaling of SD material was visibly softer than the Tosh unit. It would be great if someone could directly compare!

Dave, see my first impressions post. In my direct comparison I felt both the XA-1 and Samsung performed at the same level for upscaling. No noticeable difference on my display at least.

Issac Hunt

06-17-06, 11:09 AM

Thanks to the consumers posting reviews of their players in this thread - faults, issues, performance, the whole caboodle. When you guys get hold of some BD discs please be sure to report your impressions.

amirm

06-17-06, 11:19 AM

A few comments about my upconversion test of Sammy against Toshiba.

The difference between these two sets is not great enough to easily tell from memory. Playing a movie on one and then the other will be challenging as far as telling which is better. After all, both are working from pretty low-res SD sources, upsampling nearly 6X.

I did not have enough time to do full tests. Sspears is doing that (and so far, based on his early tests, he is less happy with the Sammy than I was!). Anyway, pausing does not work because of field vs frame freeze. So we did a simple test. We put in a DVD that had fine text/graphics as its start-up menu. We then let both players get to that point and sit there (we had two of the same title). We then compared the two units using two HDMI inputs on the Sony Qualia 1080 LCD. The Sammy was softer but we noticed that the Sony LCD has different set up for each HDMI input as the colors were not the same. If sharpness was set up different for the two inputs, that would nullify the test. This being a Japanese set, with Japanese menus, it is a pain to navigate the menus. So fixing the setup was not a practical option.

So we did the test the old fashion way. We got someone to sit behind the sets and switch from one player to the other on the same HDMI input on the Sony. Here, it was clear that the Sammy's interpolator is softer. The Toshiba was sharper, without a hint of ringing or over-sharpening. It simply had a cleaner, more defined look.

Mind you, we are still talking about rather horrible pictures compared to HD (those who think SD and HD should come and see this demo :)). Both sets were soft, very soft in grand scheme of things on above material (i.e. text and graphics). But relative to each other, the Sammy, in 1080i upsampling mode, loses to Toshiba.

Plazman, do you happen to have two of the same SD DVD? If not, it would be great to go and buy one with the above characteristics and give it a try. Also let us know the resolution of your display. Ours was 1920x1080 so it could resolve everything that could be there.

And per my hint above, sspears is doing more scientific testing and I am sure will report back soon…

plazman

06-17-06, 11:37 AM

Earz

06-17-06, 12:06 PM

Mr Ian B

06-17-06, 01:30 PM

The reason why you are getting that messsage is because your television does not support Dolby Digital or DTS decoding. For this reason, the Samsung is telling you that you can't use bitstream for the HDMI (as the television won't decode the audio signal). Your receiver, on the other hand will, so it is not an issue.

The UI on the Samsung is just not well designed. They should have really seperated the HDMI and the digital audio connections in terms of settings, rather than having one master setting (which causes confusion).

Thanks for the info. The block message displays for about 5-10 seconds and then it disappears and the receiver takes over and decodes the 5.1 audio. So far, I have watched most of Batman Begins and it looks good at times, not during the initial scenes. I am about to watch the movie on my Toshiba HD-A1 to compare and then post some results.

Ian B

Larry Sutliff

06-17-06, 01:57 PM

Received my Samsung via Fedex this morning! :)

First impressions:
The Samsung is a beautiful piece. I love the piano black look, combined with the silver.
Don't have any BD's to play yet, so I popped in my SD DVD of SUPERMAN, a transfer I'm familiar with. I'm using component for the time being, so no upconversion, but this is the best 480p picture I've probably ever seen on my television. Very crisp, very nice black levels, saturated color. Sound is very nice and suitably bombastic when it needs to be the through coax digital. The remote is much more responsive than the Toshiba, and the load time seemed a lot faster to me, as well.
Can't wait to get some BD's to play on this baby!

golem

06-17-06, 02:07 PM

his criticisms are with the player

Larry Sutliff

06-17-06, 02:13 PM

Kevin, Amir is just giving his impressions of the Samsung. Just as with the Toshiba thread, all opinions should be allowed, even from insiders.

plazman

06-17-06, 02:21 PM

Larry Sutliff

06-17-06, 02:27 PM

I just like that black laquered look for some reason! The main thing is performance, of course.

MrBigglesworth

06-17-06, 02:58 PM

So does BB even have a display up yet or is it just the boxes on the shelf?

I am curious to see how they display BR as compared to HD DVD.

Neuromancer

06-17-06, 03:20 PM

Try 1080i...or better yet 1080p....which the Optoma h-78/79 accept via digital connection from a PC.

I blindly changed the video resolutions, and each resolution (480p->1080i) would not resolve a picture. I tried DVI YCbCr as well just in case there was some crazy synching error, but that did not help.

I will be spending the day moving the unit back and forth between the Panasonic and Optoma to see what the error could be (and it is times like this that I wish the power cord was detachable).

Kampfer

06-17-06, 03:48 PM

Blu-Ray displays are suppose to be up starting on sunday in BB. It is suppose to be on an end-cap for the home theater department.

A couple questions, since blu-ray uses mpeg2 and hd-dvd uses mpeg4, the same movie would take up less space on the hd-dvd instead? Also how are both formats recorded? I been getting conflicting information, I thought blu-ray are all encoded in 1080p while hd-dvd is encoded in 1080i and later units could output 1080p be de-interlacing.

Also, could everyone post what display they're using for the new Blu-Ray. I wonder if that makes a difference as plasmas are not 1080p yet, but some DLP are 1080p and can accept 1080p.

Robert D

06-17-06, 03:53 PM

DVDO+WESTY=1080p

06-17-06, 05:20 PM

There is an official release date. Best Buy is suppose to display it starting on 6/18, this Sunday, and start selling on 6/25, the official street date. They won't get sued, but it was in the employee memo not to sell it until 6/25. Learn the facts before you call B.S., thank you.
How were others including in this forum were able to purchase their blu-ray players before the street date and why did the best buy manager tell me that I could buy it on Tuesday 6/20 which is also before the street date?

Those are two facts to think about...

rfgmdporsc

06-17-06, 05:25 PM

Larry Sutliff

06-17-06, 05:42 PM

One more observation:

The Samsung doesn't pass BTB via component on my display when using DIGITAL VIDEO ESSENTIALS. I would be curious to see what others say about this.

plazman

06-17-06, 06:00 PM

How were others including in this forum were able to purchase their blu-ray players before the street date and why did the best buy manager tell me that I could buy it on Tuesday 6/20 which is also before the street date?

Those are two facts to think about...

Obviously wasn't being enforced very well :D

Neuromancer

06-17-06, 06:28 PM

Neuromancer

06-17-06, 06:46 PM

So I finally got the H78 and the BDP-1000 working together. What I need to do is turn on the projector, start the DVI RGB synch search, then turn on the BDP-1000. If I disconnect the HDMI cable, or change HDMI resolutions, I have to power cycle the BDP-1000 in order to re-sync.

Seems like there is a hot swap problem between my projector and the BDP-1000, as the Panasonic 42PX50U does not have the same problem.

EDIT: Retraction.

Seems that after 15 seconds of boot (ie. I can see the Samsung Logo) the DVD unit will then slip into 1080i. This change causes a re-synch, which causes the projector to loose the image. I am now using component without issue, but would like to get the HDMI working.

Earz

06-17-06, 07:00 PM

Obviously wasn't being enforced very well :D

The no BD movie sales is being enforced locally until tuesday....but I found six Samsungs at one BB..and two others that also had six players for sale...all of which were put on the shelf just today.

CC also had movies ...but will not sell until tuesday.

HTPCDev

06-17-06, 07:10 PM

Good to see some reviews beside the \'sexy package box\'.

plazman,
You are talking about X1 that is priced at $800.
This can be misleading as for some this may look like you are comparing $800 X1 to $999 Samsung.
It is important to note that Toshiba HD-A1 ($500) and HD-X1 are same beside the motorized door and remote - for sure differences that are not important for most people.

Mr Ian B

06-17-06, 08:20 PM

Thanks for the info. The block message displays for about 5-10 seconds and then it disappears and the receiver takes over and decodes the 5.1 audio. So far, I have watched most of Batman Begins and it looks good at times, not during the initial scenes. I am about to watch the movie on my Toshiba HD-A1 to compare and then post some results.

Ian B

After watching Batman Begins on the Samsung and Toshiba I found the picture a bit softer on the outdoor scenes on the Samsung. The dark black scenes and close-up shots looked almost identical in depth, detail and texture. All in all I am pleased with the Samsung for sd dvd just as much as the Toshiba A-1. I really don't care which format wins, It's a win-win for me as I want as much HD movies as possible.

Also, if you pause the sd dvd movie, after 5 minutes the Samsung screensaver will come on. Just hit play and the movies picks up where you left off.

Question for those who have played a BD movie already. How does the stop/resume function work? Does it pick up where you left off or, does it start from the beginning like the HD-DVDs?

Thanks,

Ian B

Mr Ian B

06-17-06, 08:26 PM

I have my Samsung but cannot get it to output digital coax while hooked up with the HDMI cable to my TV. What gives? Does the HDMI output disable the regular digital coax DD and DTS bitstream output? Help!

Rafael

Go into the player's menu and audio set-up. Change it from pcm to bitsream and you should get DD and DTS outputted from your receiver. You will get a message on your tv screen stating that it does not support this audio but, after 5-10 seconds it will go away.

Ian B

Alan Sh

06-17-06, 11:10 PM

One more observation:

The Samsung doesn't pass BTB via component on my display when using DIGITAL VIDEO ESSENTIALS. I would be curious to see what others say about this.

In 12-1 on Digital Video Essentials I can see the third outer black bar under component but not under HDMI to DVI.

On Avia Pro Monoticity steps I can see 1-15 under component but not under HDMI to DVI.

Star56

06-18-06, 01:59 AM

Can you turn the blue lights off during play?
This is a dealbreaker for me. I don't want to get this player and have to look at the blue lights.

This is a joke right??

Tango22

06-18-06, 02:10 AM

3. Upconversion to 1080i was also very good. I tried to switch back and forth between my XA-1 and the Samsung to compare, but I have to declare this department a tie. I was very impressed with the Samsung, moreso because in the past I have bought some of the worst DVD players (inlcluding one upconverting one) from Samsung. The performance of the Samsung (IMHO) was as good as anything.

Excellent all round performance so far with SD DVD content - whether at 480p or upconverted to 1080i.

My display is 1365 X 768 (Panasonic 8UK plasma).

Huh? You've been giving us comparisons based on a display that can't even SEE 1080i?

trgraphics

06-18-06, 03:09 AM

I'm with Tango22, you giving HD picture quality reviews with that set is rediculious, stick with standard dvd.

I'm not saying the Panasonic is a terrible set. I'm sure it's nice. But, how on earth can you comment on 1080i quality when you can't even see it. Wow!

Plazman, go buy a set than can at least display 1080i and then maybe you will be taken seriously when you comment on 1080i quality. Just a thought....

Kampfer

06-18-06, 03:27 AM

Well, I saw the blu-ray player for the first time today displayed and played a blu-ray movie on it. The movie was 5th Element and it didn't seem any better than the hd-dvd. Both units were tested on the Samsung LNS4692 lcd. (720p display unfortunately.) I'm not videophile, and I didn't really have much time to look. I wanted to test Terminator, and House of Flying Daggers, but we have a limit how many copies we can store use.

Blu-ray is a bit faster, to start up compared to hd-dvd. It does add extra loading time here and there though. For example when watching "The Last Samurai" in hd-dvd, one can press menu and it'll have a menu pop up at the bottom while pausing the movie. Blu-Ray on the other hand will have a windows hourglass come up to load for about 10 seconds, then switch to a complete new screen of the menu of the blu-ray dvd.

Also if someone accidently press the wrong player menu language such as French of Spanish when it first turns on, just soft reset it and change it back to English. Unplugging it didn't work.

replying to the angry guy that can't get his blu-ray, well, it's just some people enforce the street date, some people don't. 6/20 is the official release date of blu-ray movies, most BB's already have them, they're just in boxes in the back. I guess that manager just assumed they start selling together.

just my quick 2 cents

Neuromancer

06-18-06, 03:41 AM

Neuromancer

06-18-06, 03:45 AM

Blu-ray is a bit faster, to start up compared to hd-dvd. It does add extra loading time here and there though. For example when watching "The Last Samurai" in hd-dvd, one can press menu and it'll have a menu pop up at the bottom while pausing the movie. Blu-Ray on the other hand will have a windows hourglass come up to load for about 10 seconds, then switch to a complete new screen of the menu of the blu-ray dvd.

Press the "Pop Up Menu" button instead of the "Disc Menu". The "Pop Up Menu" brings up a blade, which is designed much like that of HD-DVD titles.

Also if someone accidently press the wrong player menu language such as French of Spanish when it first turns on, just soft reset it and change it back to English. Unplugging it didn't work.

This is listed in the manual several times. One thing you have to remember is that if you do a reset, all of your settings will be reverted to factory default.

fire407

06-18-06, 03:58 AM

Perhaps this isn't the right thread for my question, but repeating an earlier post, how does the Samsung handle slo-mo and frame by frame playback on HD disks? I would certainly expect any machine to just "play" a disk, but I want to know how the other features are relative to what we're used to with DVD.

trgraphics

06-18-06, 04:06 AM

Tango22 and trgraphics,

One of the reasons why you may want to feed your television a 1080i signal rather than its more native resolution (in this case 720p) is due to the internal design of the scaler. For example, my Panasonic TH-42PX50U produces a much sharper image when using 1080i, as opposed to 720p (its native).

I'm, sure your right. The better the source the better the picture. But, you wouldn't make statements about the quality or lack thereof of 1080i when you set is not capable of displaying it, would you?

Like I said, I'm sure it looks good.But it is not displaying the capabilities of the players. How can you say 1080i looks good or bad when all your seeing is 1365 x768p not 1920x1080? That is a fairly big difference in resolution. At least to my eyes.

Neuromancer

06-18-06, 04:44 AM

I'm, sure your right. The better the source the better the picture. But, you wouldn't make statements about the quality or lack thereof of 1080i when you set is not capable of displaying it, would you?

plazman may have his reasons to do so, and he is more than capable of defending his results.

What is most important to me is that you run the same tests on the same test bed (television) under the same conditions (cable, resolution, disc, calibration, and so forth). As long as there is no gross neglagence in terms of testing, I frankly don't care what conclusions are derives.

Like I said, I'm sure it looks good.But it is not displaying the capabilities of the players. How can you say 1080i looks good or bad when all your seeing is 1365 x768p not 1920x1080? That is a fairly big difference in resolution. At least to my eyes.

Yes, there is a huge difference in raw pixels, but the contention is not really 1080i as 1080i, but rather 1080i as a means of transporting the video. The comparions were made in the same configurations, which to me is the most important aspect.

Should he run the tests again at 720p, yes. The more data you have, the more information you have to pool together to make a more informed decision.

However, one thing we have to remember, is that not every user will have a 1080i/1080p display. As such, it is important to test the abilities of these units in all aspects, and not just the "optimal".

plazman

06-18-06, 07:15 AM

Huh? You've been giving us comparisons based on a display that can't even SEE 1080i?

That's funny! Why do you suppose I cannot even SEE 1080i?

I try not to be a fanboy and report as I see it as a regular 'non-technical' consumer. I will be the first to admit I don't know how to spot a chroma bug or bad edit or other such things while watching a movie. My observations are based on a decently well calibrated top tier (IMHO) 50 inch plasma. If your set-up is different then it may not apply to you.

If your question is (based on the portions of my review you pulled out) do I believe the Samsung is a better overall player than the XA-1? I'd say no! Not based on what I have seen so far. Not even if they both cost the same.

The Tosh XA-1 is not a better option compared to the Samsung because it is cheaper. It is better period (even when I consider the additional load times)!

Last night while watching Memoirs of a Geisha the Samsung froze at the menu screen and had to be unplugged from the power supply to stop, eject, clean and replay. So freezing it appears is not a Tosh speciality and the Samsung is not immune from it either! FWIW I have never had a freeze that required a hard reset on my XA-1.

kevivoe

06-18-06, 09:14 AM

How does the stop/resume function work? Does it pick up where you left off or, does it start from the beginning like the HD-DVDs?

Thanks,

Ian B

You should try pause/return instead of stop/resume, pause/return are the functions on the Toshibas you want.

k

HorrorScope

06-18-06, 11:45 AM

Like I said, I'm sure it looks good.But it is not displaying the capabilities of the players. How can you say 1080i looks good or bad when all your seeing is 1365 x768p not 1920x1080? That is a fairly big difference in resolution. At least to my eyes.

Are you expecting different results say Riddick vs 5th Element if the reviewer had a native 1080P unit? IMO what you are suggesting here is borderline crazy. There is a very very very strong chance the results will remain the same on a 1080P unit as they are on a 720P or 768P unit and we won't even get into which fixed format dominates the landscape. I can only assume I'm missing the point on this one.

trgraphics

06-18-06, 12:42 PM

Of course I expect different results from a 720p display versus a 1080p display. I guess maybe I am crazy.:)

HorrorScope

06-18-06, 12:58 PM

But to the point results flip-flop based on display panel resolution? (which is what I'm alluding to as well as yourself, content on the same panel either 7xxP or 1080P then compared between HD DVD vs BR, not 720P HD DVD vs 1080P BR, that is just silly) I haven't seen anyone state this yet, where they are seeing different results on one fixed panel standard versus another.

For example HD DVD is sharper with 7xxP units over BR where BR looks sharper on 1080P units then does HD DVD. I haven't heard anything like this yet, yes it still is early, but I'm getting a feeling someone has done this already and their review was basically the same we've all been seeing so far and if no one has done this yet then my gut say that will be the case, it scales...

The only thing I recall in this area and really it's not too related at all, is that a 1080i feed looks as good on a 1080P display as a 1080P feed does on a 1080P display and it's one of those over-hyped situations.

GregLee

06-18-06, 06:40 PM

That's funny! Why do you suppose I cannot even SEE 1080i?
Because you said your TV has 768 lines of vertical resolution, 1080i has 1080 lines of vertical resolution, and 768 is less than 1080.

RayPaganJr

06-18-06, 07:17 PM

I got all excited to hear that the Samsung BD player was out that I rushed to my local BB to check it out. Well, it was there all right. The only problem was they were setting it up to a 32" LCD, can't remember which model, with no 1080P input. I said I would wait anyway to see what the deal was, they replied with, but we have no blu-ray disc to play. Jeez, you figure Samsung would have at least a demo disc to show off their player. Watta bummer. We the wait continues.

kemical_head

06-18-06, 08:39 PM

Just a reminder for the 1080p advocates. A lot of the 1080p sets only upconvert to 1080p and will not except a 1080p signal. Yes, there are a few units out there that do, but I would venture to guess that it is less than 5% of the HD sets in households currently. So, in reality, someone giving a review of BD vs. HD on a 720p set or 1080i set will probably be more useful than speaking about the theoretical PQ of a 1080p set. And also, maybe I missed the release, but the 1080p DLP sets are not true 1080p chips unless you count "wobbling" as true 1080p. And finally, PQ is subjective in the first place at this level, some will see a difference that blows them away while others may or may not see a slight difference. Also, until we have a disc from both sides recorded with the same specs, it will be hard to make a valid comparison except when using specialized testing equipment like Sspears uses.

Kemical

kemical_head

06-18-06, 08:43 PM

On a different subject, has anyone found if BD does the same with audio as HD does on the optical or coax output? HD was redoing the DD audio as DTS to output it through the optical or coaxial out and i was wondering if the Samsung did this also.

Thanks,
Kemical

Earz

06-18-06, 09:04 PM

Not sure I qualify as a user just yet.
I do like the looks of the player better than the HD-A1...although that players not bad looking either.
I do think this player is more responsive, faster loading ect....but the d*mm player refuses to sync with my Optoma h-78 via hdmi/dvi at any resolution for more than a few seconds of the start up screen :(

I will wait a day or two, and see what Samsung has to say about this before bringing it back as yet another not ready for prime time HD player.

One thing I will not do is apologize or make excuses for either formats player flaws. ;)

rfgmdporsc

06-18-06, 09:32 PM

OK, sorry to bring this up again but I still cannot get the digital output on the Samsung to work if I use the HDMI output. Since my TV is a TV and not a monitor, the HDMI setting will not let me pick monitor so it trys to send the audio out to the HDMI but can't. Anyway, sorry to be a pain but I need someone else to try the digital output. I gave up and just hooked up the analog 5.1 since I am only using the BD player for BD and am using the Tosh for SD and HD-DVD.

Rafael

paintit77

06-18-06, 11:57 PM

I just returned mine. The reason? or reasons I should say?

Poor HD video quality compared to Toshiba HD-DVD (which I sold to a friend) for $500.00 more.
Poor SD Upconversion than HD-DVD for $500.00 more
Poor remote response and $500.00 more than the Toshiba HD-DVD player.
Noisy CD playback which is just as bad as the Toshiba HD-DVD player. Again, costs $500.00 more for the same skill at playing CDs.

What I did like about the Sammy: It booted up faster, about 19 seconds faster. Other than that, nothing.
Please bring on the second generation DUAL FORMAT disk players. If LG can pull it off, I am in. I would be willing to pay $2000.00 for it as long as it has the following:

Fast Boot Up Time: 10 Seconds
Extremely responsive remote
HDMI that works flawlessly: Version 1.3 that has been tested and certified
BR that has dual layers
BR with Dolby True HD and DTS-HD in 7.1 lossless
HD-DVD with Dolby True HD and DTS-HD in 7.1 lossless
BR Disks that use VC-1
Oh and the most important thing we need, CONTENT. Good CONTENT
BSG, Bond, Star Wars, LOTRs, Star Trek, and so on.

HorrorScope

06-19-06, 12:02 AM

^ I see you'll be out for good while then and LG the monster they are really has their work cut out for themselves. But you've done it you have bought and returned a product before it's actual street date! I'm in no way disagreeing with your conclusion.

BigMikeATL

06-19-06, 12:09 AM

Timbelmont

06-19-06, 12:27 AM

Earz

06-19-06, 12:29 AM

hunger

06-19-06, 04:15 AM

I am watching the Blu-Ray Fifth Element on my Samsung BD-P1000 and my Sony KE-50XBR900 50" plasma (which is native 720) using HDMI->DVI and it looks fabulous. Noticeably much finer detail than the DVD version.

Has anyone figured out the discrete IR on/off codes yet? I am going nuts trying to program my Pronto.

ryoohki

06-19-06, 05:50 AM

I think reaction to the Samsung blu-ray player release is unfortunate. I will consider Sony's player (to be introduced in August) the "real" blu-ray introduction. If Sony can't improve on the Samsung's reported shortcomings, there may be a real shift in sentiment to HD-DVD. Remember, so far only us Geeks are buying this stuff.

TA

Well the sony will the not fix the fact that some of the first transfered movies are poorer you'll still get them. The sony actually use Linux too so it got an OS and the same protection scheme so expect same time. Most feature of the sony is the same Profile 1 as the samsung..

DrJRapp

06-19-06, 07:56 AM

Remember, so far only us Geeks are buying this stuff.

TA

That is very, very true! I've spoken to most of my "civilian" friends and NONE are aware of the fact that HD DVD and BD even exist. When told about the players, their reaction is almost universal....I'll wait till the price comes down. Most of them are expecting to see $100 machines based on what has happened to DVD player prices. They don't understand the complexities of HD over SD.

Only about 50% of my friends even own an HDTV. Of the 50% that don't most say that they will wait till the prices come down (more) on HDTV sets.

One can't help notice how often people mention price coming down. Therefore, one may conclude that the Toshiba may have an advantage with the general population.

I was at my local BB yesterday. They just substituted the Sammy for the Toshiba in the display. The Sammy was still surrounded by HD DVD movies and was playing thru the same Westinghouse display that was playing HD DVDs on Thursday when I was there. . My salesman indicated I was the only one all day who even looked at the machine. This was at about 3:30 pm. He said he couldn't sell one till the 25th, but they had a 6-8 of them in the back.

Alan Sh

06-19-06, 12:45 PM

Since I have no Blu Ray movies yet, the first disc that I put into the Samsung player was the Firewall HD DVD disc. I put the SD only version of Firewall in the Toshiba and played the first ten minutes on two displays.

My first impression was that there wasn't any difference between the SD pictures on the two displays. When I started to look more closely I did see differences, one of which I took some pictures of.

The locator frame below is at 3:23 and is the first frame where the televison set appears. The other jpg shows the extreme lower left of the television. The top is the Samsung, the middle is the Toshiba SD and the bottom is the Toshiba HD DVD.

The television set is slightly curved so the grating at the edge is closer together. The Samsung seems to be unable to resolve this entirely. The Toshiba(this frame looks like by Denon 2200) is able to partially resolve it. The HD DVD looks very different.

ndjr

06-19-06, 02:14 PM

CPanther95

06-19-06, 02:17 PM

Based on those screen shots, Tosh is the winner of SD upconversion only. I think we all expected the HD-DVD to beat SD via Blu-ray - just like a Blu-ray movie will blow away an SD movie via HD-DVD.

angelo913

06-19-06, 02:44 PM

thats it then! tosh is the winner!!!
:D :D :D

...Angelo

Neuromancer

06-19-06, 03:04 PM

So, is this thread still about BD-P1000 user reports, or has this become just another standard thread about Blu-ray/HD-DVD?

Earz,

I contacted Samsung, and they did not have a good response as to why I may be having this error. I inquired about locking the resolution (as the problem only manifests itself when the DVD player, in all of its wisdom, decides that 1080i is the better resolution), but there is no such system in place, and they are not aware of any firmware which will address this.

Likely, we will both have to return the Samsung and wait for the Sony or other BD models, and only hope that their HDMI outputs are not as flawed.

Chris Beveridge

06-19-06, 05:38 PM

And lo, the Toshiba was unplugged and swapped out for the Samsung in my rack.

I picked it up earlier this afternoon, finally had a chance to swap them out. First impressions:

Remote is a grade better than the Toshiba, but when that gets an F, a D isn't much better. But honestly, around here, don't most of us have universals that we plug it all into anyway? My MX-500 will be updated in a day or two and it's a non-issue.

Connected via HDMI and optical. Plug and play essentially.

Fast load-up. This was very noticeable and will be something that will vary by person; while the unit was sitting on my Toshiba, I had to press the Toshiba's eject button to get the Pokemon disc out that my daughter was watching. The wait, two months after buying the player, still drives me ****ing nuts. Once the players were swapped and we hit the power button, bam, it's on. Same for eject.

Even better, when it's in the midst of doing things, *it doesn't drop the signal*. I hated that with the Toshiba. The Toshiba and HD DVD logo are rarely on the screen and the TV goes back to its default resolution. When the disc would load in the Tosh, it would go through it's flicker as it acquired the newly sent signal and go to that resolution and then show the visuals. But it'd often have a few seconds where you had no picture. None of that with the Samsung unless you're actively changing resolutions via the player. This is minor, but like the load times, it drove me ****ing nuts.

I don't like swearing on forums. I consider it crude. But the Toshiba's really ticked me off with it because it was stuff that I never had happen in nine years of owning DVD players. It simply should not have happened and feels incredibly lazy and half-assed. It's the kind of thing, as we've seen, shows up in every single "mainstream" review as a knock against the player.

The only disc I have is Underworld: Evolutions and I popped that in after going through the basic setup procedure (Default language, Japanese!). Quick load though I think they really need to change that hourglass load icon to something else less... insulting. I skimmed through the movie in English PCM 5.1 and it looked and sounded gorgeous. So many deep blacks and blues and shades inbetween.

I gave the player a whirl with some 4:3 material in DVD form via Princess Tutu Vol. #5. I understand the stink about the lack of windowboxing but it doesn't bother me much since I watch 4:3 TV material on cable in stretch form and it's barely noticeable, even to my wife which tells me a lot. Princess Tutu looked gorgeous here upconverted with smooth colors and no real issues. It picked up my language defaults perfectly as well which is something a lot of players don't seem to be able to handle right; the Toshiba didn't always get it right. So far so good here.

I am fully aware I am nowhere near as critical of picture quality as some others. I've had access to a lot of HD material in the last two years, from *really solid* material via Comcast here where the bitrate is high and the selection is strong, to watching many of the HD DVD releases in the last couple of months. Again, I only have U:E which is the newest of the new and I don't have things like T5E or XXX, etc. But so far I like what I see, it looks just as strong as a very similar movie in color palette, Doom, and I'm excited to see how things go in the next year.

My Netflix preferences are Blu-ray, HD DVD and then DVD. So I'll be seeing plenty of each, especially since the cost of entry to both formats is too high at the moment for smaller publishers like those I deal with. The player will still see far more DVD playing on it than anything else, much like the Toshiba. Hell, it'll be playing hours more of just Pokemon than it will anything HD for awhile!

InYourEyes

06-19-06, 07:03 PM

Anybody open up their's.

Neuromancer

06-19-06, 07:23 PM

Anybody open up their's.

Yes, and you can also look at pictures on the First Review (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7771703&&#post7771703) forum.

DaViD Boulet

06-19-06, 07:54 PM

I'll post my full review tonight/tomorrow but we compared the Sammy's upscaling to the Toshiba HD player using the SB fifth Element DVD and while the Sammy was hardly a "bad" upscaling DVD player, the Tosh definitely seemed to edge above it in absolute resolution and naturalness for the upscaled image.

That's not a BD versus HD DVD thing. It's a player to player thing. I hope everyone realizes that there will be "average", "good", and "outstanding" upscaling players on all sides of the format fence!

-dave

william06

06-19-06, 07:58 PM

I received the BDP-1000 Friday from CC, Got 4 Movies today FE, Flying Daggers, XXX, and Hitch. Hooked up player with HDMI, and Opt audio will set up Analog tonight. I have the HD A1 also. I played flying daggers this afternoon. I did not get quite the WoW factor as I do from the tosh. I have a Panny 900, projector, and HCCV screen. The Sammy has a bit of a brighter picture, but softer less detailed in background even after some adjustments. I really think it is the software. More grain and not quite as sharp, color is great. I might play a bit more and return it and get the sony. I have 30 days. Never considered returning the Tosh. I was hopping for more and hope for improvements with software.

Earz

06-19-06, 10:18 PM

shamus

06-20-06, 02:25 AM

i thought i was on top of all the new sound formats.....dolby plus, dolby true hd, and dts hd......what the hell is pcm 5.1????????????

Neuromancer

06-20-06, 03:13 AM

Earz,

The problem is I can only get the video to sync when the I set the H78 to synch DVI RGB and then turn on the Samsung BD-P1000. As soon as the unit switches over to 1080i, I lose the sync again.

If the disc starts to play, there is no re-sync. And because I require the BD-P1000 to be shut off then turned back on again for a sync, it does not matter if I am running the disc or not, since it will need to load the disc again, thereby switching resolutions without my consent.

I will try switching to 720p, playing a Blu-ray disc, and then turn on the projector tomorrow (as I will be getting Underworld) for further diagnostic testing. Hopefully I will find a solution to this problem.

It is times like this that I hate having a projector, because you don't want to bother turning it back on and off again because of the slow cool down and startup (4 minute process). This greatly reduces my diagnostic abilities.

rlsmith

06-20-06, 03:26 AM

BigMikeATL

06-20-06, 07:28 AM

i thought i was on top of all the new sound formats.....dolby plus, dolby true hd, and dts hd......what the hell is pcm 5.1????????????
Uncompressed 5.1 channel audio. PCM Stereo is the audio format for every CD. That that and apply it to 5.1 channels using a slightly higher sampling rate.

It's superior to DTS and Dolby Digital Plus (ever so slightly), though it eats up a lot more space due to the lack of compression. True HD and DTS HD are superior to PCM 5.1.

bferr1

06-20-06, 09:20 AM

The non-pillarboxing of 4:3 content, even with HD material, irks the sh*t out of me. Who the hell wants to watch older movies and TV shows in stretch-o-vision??? Unless there is a firmware fix for this, the player goes back.

Chris Beveridge

06-20-06, 10:12 AM

Since a lot of 4:3 material doesn't really benefit from upconversion, setting the player to 480p via HDMI at least unlocks the TV so you can change it back to normal mode, at least on my set. I'm still not a fan of upconversion in general, particularly for anime since it's not authored for more than 480p viewing, so while I understand that it is a make or break issue for people it's not so much for me.

bferr1

06-20-06, 11:22 AM

I'm thinking ahead to classics like Casablanca on BD, where the 4:3 image would be stretched out. I noticed the featurettes on Terminator and U:E were stretched out, so I'd have to conclude that movies would be stretched out, too. And if the workaround is to drop the resolution to 480p so I can watch the movie the way it was shot, then that's not a workaround I'm too interested in. Therefore, barring any firmware upgrades that would at least allow manual pillarboxing, if not outright automatic 4:3 detection, then the player is going back and I will wait for the Sony, which is sure to pillarbox 4:3 based on their previous DVD players.

But, hey, that's the good thing about multiple vendors, right? If you don't like one company's model, try another.

DaViD Boulet

06-20-06, 11:32 AM

True HD and DTS HD are superior to PCM 5.1.

Actually, they are equal.

Though DTS-HD and True HD might be "superior" in terms of "features" like instructions for downmixing to 2.0 etc. that 5.1 LPCM lack because there's no meta-data associated with it.

rlindo

06-20-06, 11:52 AM

Hmm so it is super quick compared to the Toshiba yet the times are 45 seconds to 62 seconds based on a user of each. Yeah those 17 seconds are incredible and I understand someone getting so pissed at the toshiba times when they save a whopping 17 seconds with the samsung!

Are people really this impatient? Incredible.

Too bad you cant turn the blue lighting off because it would annoy me. Wonder if the other bluray players will have that.

bferr1

06-20-06, 11:58 AM

Too bad you cant turn the blue lighting off because it would annoy me. Wonder if the other bluray players will have that.
Probably not. Blue lights are exclusive to Samsung... and K-Mart. :D

Neuromancer

06-20-06, 01:03 PM

Hmm so it is super quick compared to the Toshiba yet the times are 45 seconds to 62 seconds based on a user of each. Yeah those 17 seconds are incredible and I understand someone getting so pissed at the toshiba times when they save a whopping 17 seconds with the samsung!

What's more important is the initial bootup of the players. The Toshiba can take up to 2 minutes just to get the coils hot. At least with the Samsung you can turn it on, place in your disc, go to the bathroom and return to a movie ready to be played.

Both are still rediculously slow compared to current generation DVD players.

shamus

06-20-06, 01:05 PM

Actually, they are equal.

Though DTS-HD and True HD might be "superior" in terms of "features" like instructions for downmixing to 2.0 etc. that 5.1 LPCM lack because there's no meta-data associated with it.

so if pcm is the same quality as a music cd.... and pcm is equal to dolby tru hd.... then what about the other formats that were suppose to be better than cds??? like sacd ect. i thought dolby true hd was suppose to be the best??????

DaViD Boulet

06-20-06, 01:36 PM

All Dolby True HD and DTS-HD lossless do is "pack" LPCM in lossless (zipped) form to save space.

LPCM is the standard format for digital audio that most products (other than Sony's SACD) use. All compressed digital audio signals start out as PCM before compression and get extrapolated back to PCM before d/a conversion.

what makes LPCM better or worse is the *resolution* you choose.

CDs use LPCM at 16 bits (amplitude accuracy) at 44.1 kHz (sampling rate).
So far the LPCM on BD and the Dolby Digital +/True HD on HD DVD are only using 16 bits at 48 kHz... so that's barely better than CD.

However, the LPCM and DTS-HD etc. on the new HD formats allow for much higher resolution digital sound... up to 24 bits and (I think) up to 96 or 192 kHz sampling.

That's when it will sound better than CD.

Does this make sense? It's not "PCM" that's CD quality... it's "16/44.1 PCM" that's CD quality.

Neuromancer

06-20-06, 02:30 PM

Good explination David. I was just about to reply when you stepped in. Saves many a finger presses.

Codger

06-20-06, 02:48 PM

Unless you have a Sony SXRD HDTV (as I do) which takes that long for the startup green blob to fade.... Works out perfect for my HD-A1!

What's more important is the initial bootup of the players. The Toshiba can take up to 2 minutes just to get the coils hot. At least with the Samsung you can turn it on, place in your disc, go to the bathroom and return to a movie ready to be played.

Both are still rediculously slow compared to current generation DVD players.

shamus

06-20-06, 03:07 PM

thanks david.... one more question..... what will i need to decode that????? coax? hdmi 1.1? hdmi1.3? or analog out????

DaViD Boulet

06-20-06, 04:49 PM

To pass *multichannel* LPCM from your player to your receiver you'd need HDMI (1.1 will work). Or you could decode to analog in a player with 5.1 analog outputs and if the DACs in the player sound decent that might be good enough if your receiver has multi-channel in for analog.

Players may also downmix to 2.0 LPCM for the usual "coax/optical" digital output but that's a player thing. The standard coax-digital-out isn't designed to go past 2 channels of LPCM which is why you need to go HDMI to get the full 5.1.

shamus

06-20-06, 05:18 PM

thanks again dave..... does lpcm have the capability of 7.1??

Larry Sutliff

06-20-06, 06:52 PM

Ok, I had my first round with a real BD movie on the Samsung. I watched about the first 25 minutes of XXX. First, I'll say the picture was pleasing, definitely better than SD DVD and most of the High Def movies I've seen on cable. The color was nice and there was some depth in the image. However, there are some caveats. The picture had a very "digital" look to it. It didn't have the filmlook of the best HD DVD's, and there was some artifacting on the trees on the road when Vin Deisel was stealing the Senator's car. The party sequence had only ok shadow detail, and the reds were a bit smearier than what I expected on this scene. The diner sequence looked pretty good.
There's no getting around the fact that, at this time, BD is not as good as HD DVD. HD DVD at its best has a gorgeous, tranquil filmlike picture that puts everything else I've ever seen on my television to shame. The BD still has a pretty good picture, but at the moment BD is definitely behind HD DVD in the picture quality department. Soundwise, both are great and I couldn't tell the difference.
Will I be keeping the Samsung? More than likely yes, as I think these problems are mostly software dependent and good releases from Warners and Fox could change everything. Plus, the Samsung is a good player with better ergonomics than the Toshiba(except for that damn hourglass!).

sdavid21

06-20-06, 07:14 PM

I have both HD DVD and BD players and I am not an expert. Today got two BR movies Terminator and House of Flying Daggers. I watched 10 minutes of each,fast forwarding to various chapters. There are places in both the movies the picture is spectacular in other chapters it does look soft. I am assuming it is the software rather than the application(BR) itself. Hope sony comes out with good transfer films. Some one said the 50 First dates was a goofd movie. I will try that tomorrow. I think I will keep the player for the time being. By the way my tv is mits 65 inch RP crt with component only input. I was sitting about 6 feet from the screen. Also my set is not callibrated by an expert.

Also I watched Spiderman superbit version on both Toshiba and Samsung players. I didn't see any difference (480 P).

Earz

06-20-06, 07:15 PM

digital_dilemma

06-20-06, 10:54 PM

suffolk112000

06-20-06, 11:33 PM

Neuromancer

06-20-06, 11:42 PM

You mean HD-DVD wins hand down, not Blu-ray.

mmonks123

06-21-06, 01:21 AM

I have used the new player with the samsung 40" 1080P lcd with the BRD House of Flying Daggers and the picture quality seems grainy, anyone else experience this problem?

originalprime

06-21-06, 01:53 AM

It is important to note that Toshiba HD-A1 ($500) and HD-X1 are same beside the motorized door and remote - for sure differences that are not important for most people.

Incorrect. The X1 also has rs232 for control system communication.

originalprime

06-21-06, 02:47 AM

thanks again dave..... does lpcm have the capability of 7.1??

I'm not Dave, but I'll take a crack anyway... Yes, the "capability" of 7.1 is there. Very much like current generation DVDs, a soundtrack has to include the material. Most discs do not carry 7.1 channel audio, but rather 6.1. It is your receiver which decodes the seventh channel, for most applications.

HDMI has room to grow. Current Digital Cinema specs call for 16 discreet channels of sound (local megaplex specifiactions...), so you can expect to see the number for home theatre grow.

The Sammy BD-P1000, as discussed in this forum, is probably capable of passing whatever "Dolby Digital" or "DTS" bitstream is on a disc, at least via HDMI.

Earz

06-21-06, 06:59 AM

nightfly13

06-21-06, 07:02 AM

I got to thinking, how much power do these two units consume when idling? What about just never turning them off, like a PC downloading torrents 24/7, and then you aren't annoyed by the boot times? Anyone have a kill-a-watt to test?

plazman

06-21-06, 07:40 AM

Positives from the Sammy are.

It always remembers were you left off in the movie after stopping the sd dvd or BD.
It takes 9-10 seconds to start a movie...once loaded.
I think the PCM 5.1 track is slightly better sounding than DD+
The player responds to commands faster than the HD-A1...play, chapter advance, Menu ect.
I think the player is better looking than the HD-A1...and despite it weighing less...when you factor in looks, its build quality seems just fine.

The biggest thing so far has been no player lock up.....or that ridiculous re-syncing of your display when stop, menu ect are used , like on the HD-A1.

Zero fan noise,no static popping noises when certain buttons on the remote are used...and no ground loop hum....like on my HD-A1.

This player imo, is getting trashed by far too many who have not even taken one home and tried one...and is an overall better player than the HD-A1....hands down.

I think Underworld Evolution is real close to TLS PQ via component 1080i as compared to hdmi 1080i from the TLS playback......but can't fairly judge this with the player and my pj....not playing well together.

The only real negative so far is the not syncing with hdmi....which seems to be only on my particular display.

It may not be worth double the subsidized HD-A1 price....but I feel it is worth at least 200.00 more to not have to put up with all the problems I had with the HD-A1.

Having said all of this, I will probably not be keeping the player..unless theres a fix for my display with hdmi....so I will probably just wait for a different brand player...for both formats.

Earz, I agree with you in that the Sammy is being unfairly trashed. In my reviews so far I believe PQ-wise it is very close to my XA-1 (as long as the content is good), the start up times are better and I have not had any display errors since I got it. However, in my case except for perhaps Terminator and Evolution (that I watched last night) the BD movies appear to have much more grain than HD DVD and hence not as satisfying to watch (JMHO). The differences are usually in facial details and in action or fast sequences. As a standalone player for HD content I feel it is very good, however, IF one were looking for just one player for HD content HD DVD (and thus the Toshiba) are IMHO a (much) better alternative right now.

Also, looks like your Samsung performance seems to be better than mine and your A-1 worse than my XA-1. For instance starting a movie takes around 20 seconds on the Samsung for me. Also, I get the hour glass on any selection from the display menu. Changing chapters is fast on both my Sammy and Tosh. However, the ability to stop and start a BD movie from any point is a great feature on the Sammy.

I am basing my decision on watching 4 BD movies so far. So far based on player performance (overall) and HD content I would have paid more for the XA-1.

My 2cents...

suffolk112000

06-21-06, 07:48 AM

You mean HD-DVD wins hand down, not Blu-ray.

Oooppps!! Corrected. :)

Craig

Earz

06-21-06, 07:58 AM

Earz, I agree with you in that the Sammy is being unfairly trashed. In my reviews so far I believe PQ-wise it is very close to my XA-1 (as long as the content is good), the start up times are better and I have not had any display errors since I got it. However, in my case except for perhaps Terminator and Evolution (that I watched last night) the BD movies appear to have much more grain than HD DVD and hence not as satisfying to watch (JMHO). The differences are usually in facial details and in action or fast sequences. As a standalone player for HD content I feel it is very good, however, IF one were looking for just one player for HD content HD DVD (and thus the Toshiba) are IMHO a (much) better alternative right now.

Also, looks like your Samsung performance seems to be better than mine and your A-1 worse than my XA-1. For instance starting a movie takes around 20 seconds on the Samsung for me. Also, I get the hour glass on any selection from the display menu. Changing chapters is fast on both my Sammy and Tosh. However, the ability to stop and start a BD movie from any point is a great feature on the Sammy.

I am basing my decision on watching 4 BD movies so far. So far based on player performance (overall) and HD content I would have paid more for the XA-1.

My 2cents...

Yep...The longest the hour glass has been on screen so far is 6-7 seconds during two movies....add in the fact that my pj would re-sync every time menu..stop ect were used with the HD-A1....and this adds to my wait time more than others.

The hd-a1 was the only source that ever did this on my pj...so if you add on re-syncing in your comparison...you can see were it seemed like an eternity waiting for a movie to play on the HD-A1 in my case.

Hopefully when my new 1080p pj gets released around August.....there will be players from both formats that function properly.
The only positive, is that its summertime, were I have more patience for all of this....and lots to do besides watch movies.

If I compare either players sd dvd playback or functionality to a great sd dvd player like the Onkyo sp 1000.....there both severely lacking in every category.

If it were winter....I would be chomping at the bit or something. :)

suffolk112000

06-21-06, 07:58 AM

However, in my case except for perhaps Terminator and Evolution (that I watched last night) the BD movies appear to have much more grain than HD DVD and hence not as satisfying to watch (JMHO). The differences are usually in facial details and in action or fast sequences. As a standalone player for HD content I feel it is very good, however, IF one were looking for just one player for HD content HD DVD (and thus the Toshiba) are IMHO a (much) better alternative right now.

I am basing my decision on watching 4 BD movies so far. So far based on player performance (overall) and HD content I would have paid more for the XA-1.

My 2cents...

I am glad others are seeing the grain as well. I was just blown away at the poor picture quality the player produced. I just kept gawking at the screen for about 5 minutes before I finally started realizing what I was seeing. After hearing all of the hype of BD, I was expecting more and came away very disappointed. :(
Having said this, I don't think anyone is un-fairly bashing this unit. For $1000 it puts out a crappy picture.

Craig

Earz

06-21-06, 08:10 AM

I am glad others are seeing the grain as well. I was just blown away at the poor picture quality the player produced. I just kept gawking at the screen for about 5 minutes before I finally started realizing what I was seeing. After hearing all of the hype of BD, I was expecting more and came away very disappointed. :(
Having said this, I don't think anyone is un-fairly bashing this unit. For $1000 it puts out a crappy picture.

Craig

This is the end users thread....not the looked at it at the crappy BB display thread....and was not impressed thread.
Nothing personal....but you are a perfect example of the unfair bashing....and either need to take one home.....or stay out of this thread. ;)

Its always been this way for sd dvd players and all other sources.....so just because theres a so called format war (at leat on the net) does not mean non owners opinions are some how considered valid.

plazman

06-21-06, 08:23 AM

If I compare either players sd dvd playback or functionality to a great sd dvd player like the Onkyo sp 1000.....there both severely lacking in every category.

Based on my experience the XA-1 (and the Samsung HD P100) are very good as an SD DVD players (with slight edge to the XA-1) - certainly up to par with my Denon 1910 and Oppo 971H that had previously. I am not sure how these compare to the Onkyo. However, another close friend of mine feels that his A-1 is comparable to his Denon 3910 as well (he was initially skeptical of HD DVD but is now singing it's praises).

Earz

06-21-06, 08:31 AM

Based on my experience the XA-1 (and the Samsung HD P100) are very good as an SD DVD players (with slight edge to the XA-1) - certainly up to par with my Denon 1910 and Oppo 971H that had previously. I am not sure how these compare to the Onkyo. However, another close friend of mine feels that his A-1 is comparable to his Denon 3910 as well (he was initially skeptical of HD DVD but is now singing it's praises).

I have an OPPO...had two 3910's....the Onkyo is a better player in every category including PQ.

Its also twice as fast as the 3910 for functions....which makes these HD players seem all that much slower yet. ;)

The HD-a1...is a very good sd dvd player based on PQ....just not Onkyo sp 1000 caliber in any way, shape or form.

plazman

06-21-06, 08:37 AM

I have an OPPO...had two 3910's....the Onkyo is a better player in every category including PQ.

Its also twice as fast as the 3910 for functions....which makes these HD players seem all that much slower yet. ;)

The HD-a1...is a very good sd dvd player based on PQ....just not Onkyo sp 1000 caliber in any way, shape or form.

That's good to hear. Since Onkyo is in the HD DVD group (I believe) let's hope they put out a player at some point :D

DaViD Boulet

06-21-06, 09:50 AM

I have used the new player with the samsung 40" 1080P lcd with the BRD House of Flying Daggers and the picture quality seems grainy, anyone else experience this problem?

Have you read *any* of the dozens of reviews of this by members at AVS?

:D

Mr Ian B

06-21-06, 10:37 AM

First of all, I am pro both formats. I don't care who wins, just give me all the HD movies that I can buy. With that said, I am seriously contemplating taking this unit back for the following reasons:

1-I am by no means an expert but, after looking at XXX last night in blu-ray, I was very disappointed. Colors and picture seemed soft and at times not crisp. I watched 3 SD dvds on both the HD-A1 and Samsung units. Close up shots were very similar and great in details but, long shots and scenery shots were soft with the Samsung. I watched on the HD-A1 my XXX Superbit and it definitely looked much better in colors and details.

2-I have a read most of the posts regarding picture quality on the other 6 BD releases and the word is not very good. I have Underworld Evolution but, won't open it as I won't be able to return it.

3-The stop and resume function worked on SD and BD dvds as long as the unit was on, if you power it off and turn it back on, it does not remember where you were in the movie and starts from the beginning.

4-My setup is through HDMI on a 65" Mitsubishi DLP rear projection tv. At this time, I will not justify the 1k price for the poor picture quality. I will sit this one out and see how the Sony and other BP players perform and get another BP player at a later date.

Ian B

BenDover

06-21-06, 11:07 AM

...

4-My setup is through HDMI on a 65" Mitsubishi DLP rear projection tv. At this time, I will not justify the 1k price for the poor picture quality. I will sit this one out and see how the Sony and other BP players perform and get another BP player at a later date.

Ian B

I offer this only as an observation since unless you are thinking about replacing your TV, you are likely making the right choice. That said, I have an HD DVD player streaming to my Qualia 006 and it looks great with HD DVD material. I own Apollo 13 on HD DVD and have watched it many, many times already; it looks great on my setup. I was in a Magnolia section of a local BB this past weekend and saw the Tosh XA1 connected to a 73" 1080p Mits; the disc in the player happened to be Apollo 13 (not sure why, maybe has to do with what they can publicly display with little kiddies likely roaming around :)). Anyhow, it looked awful; very noisy picture...seemed like pixelization all over the screen.

In fact, now after I've seen the Sammy BD player playing Flying Daggers on a Samsung DLP, I would say it is possibly the same noisy picture. I wonder if Flying Daggers playing through a Sammy to my Qualia would look fine?

demo77

06-21-06, 12:07 PM

Probably, I'm a 006 owner and the 3 movies I played thru the Sammy are quite nice. Maybe it's the tv but so far I am happy.

Andrew P

06-21-06, 12:27 PM

In fact, now after I've seen the Sammy BD player playing Flying Daggers on a Samsung DLP, I would say it is possibly the same noisy picture. I wonder if Flying Daggers playing through a Sammy to my Qualia would look fine?

Nope. Ive got the Sony Ruby and the picture quality is still not there, but I havent seen how good/bad it was on the Samsung.

amirm

06-21-06, 01:46 PM

I drove the Ruby with Samsung at 1080p. It was the best picture it has produced but of course, still a big step down from HD DVD :).

I also drove the Sony Qualia 1080 LCD with it. Here, the samsung produced the worst picture I have seen. No fault of the display though. I could stand 1 foot from it and see every flaw. This LCD is ruthless in how it shows every detail (contrast is not great but detail is amazing).

Neuromancer

06-21-06, 02:41 PM

Here, the samsung produced the worst picture I have seen.

Compared to what? HD-DVD, SD DVD, Cable Box, PC?

BenDover

06-21-06, 03:06 PM

Compared to what? HD-DVD, SD DVD, Cable Box, PC?

I read what he posted as the worst he has seen coming from the Sammy on that particular display, as compared to the sammy outputting to various other displays.

amirm

06-21-06, 03:20 PM

Compared to what? HD-DVD, SD DVD, Cable Box, PC?
At multiple levels :):

1. It was the worst of the three displays we tried it on. We had a new 46" LCD from NEC (industrial units) with 720p/760p resolution. 1080i looked bad on this, really bad but I blame that on the scalar in the display. 720p was decent because it filtered out some of the artifacts. The Qualia 005 LCD though, was ruthless in 1080i mode. Fifth Element simply was not watchable. We had people scream about how bad it was as soon as they walked in. Mind you, this is a 46" LCD so it is easy to stand right next to it and criticize the picture. But on the same set, HD DVD does superbly and outdistanced the Penny HD plasma for the most part.

2. Compared to any other HD source. I wrote a review of the Sony LCD with HD cable, D-VHS, etc. a while back in the flat panel forum. I have never seen such bad HD video come out of LCD until I played the BD movies on it. Yes, I am biased. But this goes well beyond that. The images just don’t look natural beyond being full of artifacts. We did a side by side of Fifth element superbit and the images just look more “normal” in superbit. Yes, there are moments of high-res imagery in BD discs but they quickly vanish and one is facing pretty bad looking stuff on this display. I suspect the Sony MPEG-2 encoder is doing temporal filtering, causing the image quality to vary and become artificial at times.

So net, net, I recommend if you are a BD fan, use a 720p. That filters out some of the artifacts and makes the picture somewhat more pleasing. Don’t plug it into a 1080 LCD or you will be disappointed. The Rruby is a bit of an exception in that at 10 feet, the image was pleasing. But closer examination showed all the problems above, but not as clearly.

Neuromancer

06-21-06, 04:20 PM

There we go, I new you could do it!

And still no update on my Optoma synch problem. I am almost tempted to drive to Optoma's building in the East Bay and hand them the Samsung BD-P1000 and see what they can't get out of it.

Or, I use my VP30 as a transport, but I don't trust it with HD material.

DaViD Boulet

06-21-06, 04:27 PM

Amir,

to be fair,

you're not seeing how bad *BD* is... you're seeing how bad Sony's use of MPEG2 compression (and general mastering) in a 25 gig space is!

Let's get VC1 on BD and soon...

:D

ccool96

06-21-06, 04:50 PM

Ok, so this is my first post ever, normally I just read the post, but this is to exciting to sit on the sidelines. I am the owner of a Custom A/V store in panama city, fl. I got a Samsung Blu-ray player last night. I also have the Toshiba HD-DVD player. I had to purchase the Blu-ray player from Best buy because Samsung is only releasing product to the national retailers. Even as much as it pained me to pay retail for this product I just couldnt wait!!!

I havnt had to much time to compare the 2 products, more to come on that hopefully tomorrow, but I can say that the picture quality, at first glance at least, is what I hoped it would be. My display device is the Sony VPL-VW100 projector on a 135" screen. I have almost all the HD-DVD movies that have already been released. As for Blu-ray I picked up 5th element, XXX, and Underworld Evolution.

So since i havnt had enought time to really comment spicifically on picture quality, it is very easy to say that the Samsung player is much faster and more responsive than the Toshiba.

More to come and ill try to get some pictures of image quality tonight!!!

Andrew P

06-21-06, 05:05 PM

Amir,

to be fair,

you're not seeing how bad *BD* is... you're seeing how bad Sony's use of MPEG2 compression (and general mastering) in a 25 gig space is!

Let's get VC1 on BD and soon...

:D

This is what Sony gave us. I think complaining is fair. Actually it is an embarrasment. Can you imagine if there wasnt a format war?

I do think picture quality will improve over time (it cant get worse...), and probably equal HD DVD. It could be a moot point because how many people are going to give BD a second chance as long as there is such a significant price premium?

Andrew P

06-21-06, 05:07 PM

plazman

06-21-06, 05:10 PM

Neuromancer

06-21-06, 05:13 PM

It could be a moot point because how many people are going to give BD a second chance as long as there is such a significant price premium?

Because prices will go down while content will go up. As long as Blu-ray has titles which can't be watched on HD-DVD, there will be a market.

The damaging part is that DVD is still a viable alternative, so if your Sony/MGM films remain exclusive to Blu-ray, you can just watch the DVDs and upscale them on the HD-DVD player.

BenDover

06-21-06, 05:16 PM

Because prices will go down while content will go up. As long as Blu-ray has titles which can't be watched on HD-DVD, there will be a market.

The damaging part is that DVD is still a viable alternative, so if your Sony/MGM films remain exclusive to Blu-ray, you can just watch the DVDs and upscale them on the HD-DVD player.

I don't know if Toshiba/DVD Forum was smart enough to actually do this intentionally, but the fact that the Tosh is one hell of an upconverting player really hammers this point home and takes the wind out of the sails of the "content" argument...BUT, no matter how good it looks upconverted, I would still prefer getting a true HD version :(

BenDover

06-21-06, 05:19 PM

Is BD25 part of BD the format?

Is MPEG2 part of the BD format?

Are titles released for the OFFICIAL BD launch not MPEG2 encoded titles on BD25 media?

Why all this back-pedaling and making convenient excuses for Sony/BDA, nail these guys to the wall on this...they need to get this message loud and clear!

Andrew P

06-21-06, 05:21 PM

Because prices will go down while content will go up. As long as Blu-ray has titles which can't be watched on HD-DVD, there will be a market.

The damaging part is that DVD is still a viable alternative, so if your Sony/MGM films remain exclusive to Blu-ray, you can just watch the DVDs and upscale them on the HD-DVD player.

Prices will go down for both formats. Once again, which studios have announced release dates for BD?? Let me know when there is an offical release from Fox or Disney.

Until then, this is another Sony promise. How many chances do you give them?

Neuromancer

06-21-06, 05:34 PM

BUT, no matter how good it looks upconverted, I would still prefer getting a true HD version :(

Which brings me to point 2: encoding maturity.

Right now, we only have films from Sony to judge the quality of Blu-ray technology, and their encodes are highly suspect. There is a review from Crash (Lion's Gate) which illustrates the same errors of the current releases.

However, what remains to be seen, or known at least, is how the Blu-ray encodes will look 6 months or 12 months from now. The issues which are plaguing the launch may be a moot point by then, or may still be a problem due to defective designs built into Blu-ray.

I personally can wait several years for the tides to subside, revealing the true next generation format of choice.

b2bonez

06-21-06, 05:40 PM

Neuromancer

06-21-06, 05:41 PM

Prices will go down for both formats.

Never contended. As prices fall for both formats, the gap between their price points will deminish to the point where there is a bluring between price and performance.

Once again, which studios have announced release dates for BD?? Let me know when there is an offical release from Fox or Disney.

While I am at it, I'll go see when the next releases are for Sony/MGM HD-DVD titles. This is a juvenile stab that is completely unwarrented, as no claims were made by me in terms of who and what is coming to Blu-ray.

On paper, studios are supporting Sony largely, but have not wrote off HD-DVD. We are not chrystal balls, so we can't determine which format will become the true content king. Right now we are hedging Blu-ray, but that doesn't mean it will be so in the future.

Until then, this is another Sony promise. How many chances do you give them?

Am I allowed only one? Why can't I look for competition? Just because we (notice WE) are disappointed in the format, does not mean we can't will it to become better than it is. In one situation you kill the lame (a horse) and in others you try to save it (a human). Who are we to determine what Sony is?

Competition is always a good thing, as it instills the inspiration to be better than the rest.

amirm

06-21-06, 05:48 PM

Amir,

to be fair,

you're not seeing how bad *BD* is... you're seeing how bad Sony's use of MPEG2 compression (and general mastering) in a 25 gig space is!
Actually, Sony has been working on this MPEG-2 encoder for almost two years. The claimed to have some secret sauce on it that made MPEG-2 almost as good as new codecs.

What's more, about 3 months ago they got a bunch of reporters to a theater and supposedly showed them encodings of VC-1 against MPEG-2, proving that their encoder was even better than VC-1! They issued press releases to that effect and as late as last month, their executives in an LA DVD retailing conference that I gave the keynote at, claimed that MPEG-2 produces the best picture quality period. Never mind that they had never contacted us to encode VC-1 for them, nor do they have access to our professional tools. It is a clear case of drinking too much of your own Kool-Aid as we call it.

If they quietly done this work, not pumped their chest and gone against a decade of compression advancement, it would be one thing. But they knew this day would come so they would have to defend their MPEG-2 choice so they went on an offensive. Only now, it is backfiring on them.

Mind you, I think they made more mistakes than picking the wrong codec starting with absolutely horrible quality control. It is hard to imagine but some of their folks don't seem to understand what good picture is. Their first test this, Charlie's Angles that came out 9 months ago was full of compression artifacts. Other studios told them that their encodes were not acceptable below 25 Mbit/sec but they didn’t believe it and called 18 Mbit/sec MPEG-2 transparent.

So I think it is fair. If not for Sony’s sake, for the sake of hundreds of arguments I have had with people in this forum over MPEG-2 versus VC-1. :)

Larry Sutliff

06-21-06, 05:51 PM

I watched UNDERWORLD: EVOLUTION this afternoon, and I thought the transfer was very comparable to HD DVD. There was lots of sharpness, great color, no artifacts, definitely a huge improvement over the parts of XXX I watched yesterday. It's encouraging to know that at least this title looks good, hopefully there will be more titles like this and less like XXX in the weeks and months ahead.

DaViD Boulet

06-21-06, 06:01 PM

Amir,

so, you're agreeing that the problem you're seeing is MPEG2 related and not "BD" per-se?

I share your frustration with Sony's arrogance. Though other BD titles (Terminator) seem to look more like HD DVD using VC1 than Sony's own BD titles!

Is BD25 part of BD the format?

Is MPEG2 part of the BD format?

Is single-layer 15 gig part of the HD DVD format?
Is MPEG2 part of the HD DVD format?

Yes and Yes.

Are titles released for the OFFICIAL BD launch not MPEG2 encoded titles on BD25 media?

Yes.

Why all this back-pedaling and making convenient excuses for Sony/BDA, nail these guys to the wall on this...they need to get this message loud and clear!

Agreed.

I'm just pointing out the difference between a "format" and the implimentation on a format.

If someone released the 5th Element on HD DVD 15 gig single-layer using MPEG2, it would look even worse. But it wouldn't say a thing about HD DVD's potential or its quality... just a lowsy use of it.

Video Engineer

06-21-06, 06:08 PM

I have both the Toshiba HD DVD and Samsung players and I like them both. At least on my 50 inch Panasonic Plasma 500U I cannot really say the Toshiba is better than the Blu ray. Even the worst Blu Ray disk I have (Fifth Element) looks fairly good and I dont see any major type of video noise on it . I have to hold my head one foot from the Plasma to see the noise. On that title mainly what I see is occasional film grain irregularities that are on the original master transfer. A truly high definition player will of course make these irregularities even more prominent than on a standard def one.

I don't mean this as a troll but as someone with over 30 years experience as an engineer working in video I wonder whether some of the HD DVD folks have actually compared the players side by side in valid AB comparisons or they just come on here to bash blu-ray without ever really testing it. The only things Toshiba have going for it is a very SLIGHT improvement in up converted SD performance and several hundred dollars cheaper. I expect Blu Ray will end up dominating the format wars after Sony puts out 10 million Playstation 3s within the next few months so we had all better start getting used to it.

Andrew P

06-21-06, 06:12 PM

If someone released the 5th Element on HD DVD 15 gig single-layer using MPEG2, it would look even worse. But it wouldn't say a thing about HD DVD's potential or its quality... just a lowsy use of it.

They didnt do this though. They made the right decisions. They let the product speak for itself versus hype, marketing, etc.

Like I said im sure BD will look better because it cant get worse. The problem is that im tired of Sony's empty promises. Why should we believe the now? I think its a fair question.

DaViD Boulet

06-21-06, 06:33 PM

Sure. If it was up to me Sony would have waited until fall and released BD fully realized.

Toshiba had their format out sooner so Sony made a marketing decision to try to get their out to close the gap. They should have either waited or been wiser with their title/mastering choices to debut Blu-ray.

However, HD DVDs limitation of 30 gigs is here to stay.

Sony's limitations of 25 gigs and MPEG2 will be rectified soon. If not, we'll all head over to HD DVD and learn to live with movies spread over 2 discs for our epic special editions.

Why should we believe the now? I think its a fair question.

Other studios have managed to put out some BDs using MPEG2 and 25 gigs (Lions Gate for instance, check out Bill Hunts reviews) that look great. Screw Sony. They will bring VC1 and 50 gig to market not to make you and me happy that they deliver on their promises... they'll do that because they HAVE to in order to have Fox, Disney, and the other major studios even bother with their format at all. There's no ambiguity about this, and Sony is working overtime to bring those promises to market with or without AVS enthusiasts taking action.

BenDover

06-21-06, 06:35 PM

...

Is single-layer 15 gig part of the HD DVD format?
Is MPEG2 part of the HD DVD format?

Yes and Yes.

...

I'm just pointing out the difference between a "format" and the implimentation on a format.

If someone released the 5th Element on HD DVD 15 gig single-layer using MPEG2, it would look even worse. But it wouldn't say a thing about HD DVD's potential or its quality... just a lowsy use of it.

my post wasn't meant as a flame or anything; yes of course hd dvd supports mpeg2 and single layer hd dvd, but that wasn't my point.

this is the official launch...while the deficiencies are being acknowledged, even by the staunchest of bd supporters, it also seems like everyone is once again making excuses or saying, but wait and see...

i personally haven't bought a single title released with single layer hd dvd (i.e., the hybrids) but nor have i personally viewed any; by end user accounts and professional reviews it seems that their pq is still up to snuff (i'm just taking a stance again 15gb sl :))

but before this the mpeg2 v. vc-1 debate was very heated with bd supporters staunchly stating that mpeg2 was just fine...ah, but at a high enough bit rate, which then dictates the use of 50gb discs, which really is just a self-justifying attribute of bd. but until now no one would hear of people bemoaning bd's choice to go with mpeg2.

we don't really know when we are going to see bd50 discs and we don't really know when sony will give up on mpeg2 in favor of the advanced codecs...by all public accounts, even very recently in the launch articles, sony has basically stated that mpeg2 is what they will be using.

i just think we are being too soft on sony ...

also, i would imagine we'll be right back where we started from since i'm sure bda will eventually figure out how to fabricate bd50 with sufficient yields (boy if they don't it would be the screw-up of the century) and then everyone will once again be happy with mpeg2 b/c there is room to do a high bitrate encode...but then you effectively lose the space advantage again.

they either have to quickly get bd50 out or quickly switch to vc-1/avc, but the problem is they may not be able to do either of those quickly.

i will have to try to somehow see underworld and/or terminator...if these looked as good as hd dvd, then that is different story, but from what i saw of flying daggers, it was bad...

DaViD Boulet

06-21-06, 06:38 PM

i will have to try to somehow see underworld and/or terminator...if these looked as good as hd dvd, then that is different story, but from what i saw of flying daggers, it was bad...

By all accounts, the two Sony titles are the WORST looking HD period.

Whereas Terminator and Underworld... and the two Lionsgate films (Crash and that other one) look excellent. Check out Bill Hunt's reviews over at the digital bits.

MPEG2 isn't ideal and VC1 is needed BADLY, but it seems that Sony may have also just plain botched their BD titles for whatever reason... MPEG2 or not.

BenDover

06-21-06, 06:39 PM

...

If someone released the 5th Element on HD DVD 15 gig single-layer using MPEG2, it would look even worse. But it wouldn't say a thing about HD DVD's potential or its quality... just a lowsy use of it.

to be honest, i'm not sure this would be the case...5th element, vc-1 encoded on a single layer hd dvd might look spectacular...i wish we could actually get this for comparison.

and one other thing, regarding condemning a format for a bad implementation, while you are absolutely correct that that shouldn't happen, it is very hard for people not to do just that given all the hype that sony (i'm not going to say bda here since it really has been sony) pumped out there only to LAUNCH in this manner...

b2bonez

06-21-06, 06:52 PM

I offer this only as an observation since unless you are thinking about replacing your TV, you are likely making the right choice. That said, I have an HD DVD player streaming to my Qualia 006 and it looks great with HD DVD material. I own Apollo 13 on HD DVD and have watched it many, many times already; it looks great on my setup. I was in a Magnolia section of a local BB this past weekend and saw the Tosh XA1 connected to a 73" 1080p Mits; the disc in the player happened to be Apollo 13 (not sure why, maybe has to do with what they can publicly display with little kiddies likely roaming around :)). Anyhow, it looked awful; very noisy picture...seemed like pixelization all over the screen.

In fact, now after I've seen the Sammy BD player playing Flying Daggers on a Samsung DLP, I would say it is possibly the same noisy picture. I wonder if Flying Daggers playing through a Sammy to my Qualia would look fine?

That is what I saw with the A1 connected to a Sammy ($9000) at my local BB/Magnolia playing Serenity. Noisy pixels dancing everywhere. I went back a second time with the spouse and even she said it looked like crap. :confused: I got the rep to bring out the remote and it was 1080, not 720 and I watched for about 15 mins.

Haven't been back to check out the Sammy BD players, once I realized that without a decent display, HD is not what's in the cards right now...

b2b

Andrew P

06-21-06, 07:02 PM

Sure. If it was up to me Sony would have waited until fall and released BD fully realized.

Toshiba had their format out sooner so Sony made a marketing decision to try to get their out to close the gap. They should have either waited or been wiser with their title/mastering choices to debut Blu-ray.

However, HD DVDs limitation of 30 gigs is here to stay.

Sony's limitations of 25 gigs and MPEG2 will be rectified soon. If not, we'll all head over to HD DVD and learn to live with movies spread over 2 discs for our epic special editions.

Other studios have managed to put out some BDs using MPEG2 and 25 gigs (Lions Gate for instance, check out Bill Hunts reviews) that look great. Screw Sony. They will bring VC1 and 50 gig to market not to make you and me happy that they deliver on their promises... they'll do that because they HAVE to in order to have Fox, Disney, and the other major studios even bother with their format at all. There's no ambiguity about this, and Sony is working overtime to bring those promises to market with or without AVS enthusiasts taking action.

Our biggest difference is that I dont believe 30gb is a limitation. Bill really didnt review the movies, he gave two quick blurbs and no disrespect to Bill, but his movie reviews are not the most technical.

BigMikeATL

06-21-06, 07:18 PM

to be honest, i'm not sure this would be the case...5th element, vc-1 encoded on a single layer hd dvd might look spectacular...i wish we could actually get this for comparison.

and one other thing, regarding condemning a format for a bad implementation, while you are absolutely correct that that shouldn't happen, it is very hard for people not to do just that given all the hype that sony (i'm not going to say bda here since it really has been sony) pumped out there only to LAUNCH in this manner...
Serenity is not the best example. Some scenes look amazing, while others are quite grainy.

The grain you are seeing is in the film itself... not because of the compression.

A couple of the early Blu-ray titles have the same problem (i.e. Fifth Element). House of Flying Daggers and xXx are solid prints, ruined by the compression.

DavidHir

06-21-06, 07:24 PM

Amir,

so, you're agreeing that the problem you're seeing is MPEG2 related and not "BD" per-se?

I share your frustration with Sony's arrogance. Though other BD titles (Terminator) seem to look more like HD DVD using VC1 than Sony's own BD titles!

Is single-layer 15 gig part of the HD DVD format?
Is MPEG2 part of the HD DVD format?

Yes and Yes.

Yes.

Agreed.

I'm just pointing out the difference between a "format" and the implimentation on a format.

If someone released the 5th Element on HD DVD 15 gig single-layer using MPEG2, it would look even worse. But it wouldn't say a thing about HD DVD's potential or its quality... just a lowsy use of it.

David,

Actually, there are 15 gig with VC-1 HD DVDs which look excellent. Check out Kris Deering's reviews of the HD DVD combos (15 gig). I know you were referring to MPEG2 with 15 gig, but just thought you'd like to read this if you haven't already.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/mrg-135-june-2006.html#Firewall

BenDover

06-21-06, 07:27 PM

That is what I saw with the A1 connected to a Sammy ($9000) at my local BB/Magnolia playing Serenity. Noisy pixels dancing everywhere. I went back a second time with the spouse and even she said it looked like crap. :confused: I got the rep to bring out the remote and it was 1080, not 720 and I watched for about 15 mins.

Haven't been back to check out the Sammy BD players, once I realized that without a decent display, HD is not what's in the cards right now...

b2b

it may be a dlp issue...is the 1080p mits a "wobulator"?

BenDover

06-21-06, 07:30 PM

David,

Actually, there are 15 gig with VC-1 HD DVDs which look excellent. Check out Kris Deering's reviews of the HD DVD combos (15 gig). I know you were referring to MPEG2 with 15 gig, but just thought you'd like to read this if you haven't already.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/mrg-135-june-2006.html#Firewall

yeah, i've been seriously rethinking my decision not to buy the hybrids as recently as yesterday when i had KKBB in my hands and was going to take it to the counter and say screw it...but then i saw the price :eek:

oh, and i didn't catch that david b. was talking about an hd dvd release on sl disc using mpeg2...that just doesn't happen on hd dvd ... ;)

suffolk112000

06-21-06, 09:24 PM

This is the end users thread....not the looked at it at the crappy BB display thread....and was not impressed thread.
Nothing personal....but you are a perfect example of the unfair bashing....and either need to take one home.....or stay out of this thread. ;)

Its always been this way for sd dvd players and all other sources.....so just because theres a so called format war (at leat on the net) does not mean non owners opinions are some how considered valid.

Really... what is the difference.
I ended up working with the staff to make sure it was set up properly. I had full autonomy with the unit for as long as I wanted. Sorry but I feel what I have to report is just as worth while as the next guy. Actually, how many of the "End Users" had access to 1080p tvs?
I am not bashing BD one way or the other. I have nothing at stake here as I own neither BD or HD-DVD.

Craig

ccool96

06-21-06, 10:35 PM

Finally got to spend some time comparing picture quality between Blu-ray and HD-DVD..... results.... no comparison... not even remotely close... HD-DVD walks all over every Blu-ray movie i tried!!

I went bact to BB and picked up Terminator, what a total waste of money... picture quaity is nothing short of a total disappointment. While I was at BB i also picked up VanHelsing on HD-DVD, now that is what I always hoped Blu-ray would look like. I have been a huge Blu-ray supporter, and totally against HD-DVD... Well I was wrong...Sony has made me a fool, spending twice as much on a player for half the quality!!!

As for will I be keeping the Samsung player, yes I will, im in high hopes good things are still to come for Blu-ray, but I hopes its soon.

Actually I find it funny, I have a Sony VW100 and it takes a Toshiba HD-DVD player to really give me the picture quality i want!!! At least the Samsung player looks cool and works well, cause thats all it has going for itself right now!!!

SonyHD

06-21-06, 11:02 PM

Andrew P

06-21-06, 11:23 PM

Just a quick question guys, but do the problems on the Blu-ray side have to do more with the actual software as opposed to the actual hardware (player)? I was thinking of getting either a Sony or Samsung Blu-ray player but I won't if its that bad. Of course if its just a problem on the software end, I'll know in the future that it'll eventually get fixed.

Most likely software. The problem is that Sony praises MPEG2, only has 25gb discs available (you will hear that 50gb are coming), but we do not know when. The discs also have virtually zero extras which was a big premise for BD. The price is also 2x as high.

Will the quality improve? Of course, because when you set the bar this low you can only improve.

SonyHD

06-21-06, 11:31 PM

When does Sony plan on actually releasing their own Blu-Ray player, since they're already selling Blu-ray disks?

Andrew P

06-21-06, 11:33 PM

When does Sony plan on actually releasing their own Blu-Ray player, since they're already selling Blu-ray disks?

The latest info is October 2006.

Asab

06-22-06, 12:06 AM

My very good friend works for sony and he is high up in the chain of command there ...He got his hands on a Sony BSP-S1 today and I was down in NC Monday and picked up the Samsung and all movies for it ....

All I can say is the movies on my 65 inch HP are ok to very good Underworld is the best transfer and I think XXX and house of flying is crap !!!

For all of you guys saying the Sony is going to be better sorry there was NO DIFFERENCE in picture with the two units on my 65 ....And Sony has no plans to change a thing with the unit before launch.....

So I knew there would be people saying my HP is not real 1080 HP so we also tried it on a dell 30 inch 2500 X 1600 Rez Mon with a dvi to hdmi cable and guess what people No dam DIFFERENCE !!!! Then one step further we went down to my buddy at Best Buy and waited for them to close and put it on the new Samsung 4095 LCD and again no diffrance...We had to wait because my friend is nervous about letting people see it lol I told him no one would know a dam thing anyway lol....O well we waited.....

I have HD DVD and even my little Sony friend says it looks very good but also his next breath is the software was rushed out with Blu Ray lol... Sony is waiting because they want and need more DVD Blu Ray drives for Playstation 3 I heard it from the horse's mouth.....Also the content will be bigger and much better then...

I also was told by my buddy that 1.3 hdmi will look much better on Blu Ray ( he sure is a sales man lol ) the XBR 70 inch might have a shot at getting it as my buddy says there is a chance there going to delay them till Oct or Nov Launch !!!

Anyway I like the samsung for what it is and from what I see its the movies not the player as far as HD stuff go's. Upconverting is another story and I could care less since I have a very good normal DVD player.......

On my Hp 65 I really like how it looks, the good movies look great the bad ones look like crap end of story lol...............I think if ya got the cash and the right set go for it...Remember we are the true early adopters no one normal cares right now soon they will but its US who are gonna tell them Right ? ............................Asab.................

juras

06-22-06, 04:41 AM

Hi

I've read nearly all about the 2 HD formats and its clearly obvious

Not the Players are crap - the source is the limiting factor.

Put the same encode in the HD-DVD and BD Player and there will be no (at most a very small) difference in PQ (even if they use all the same decoder).

BenDover

06-22-06, 08:11 AM

jwv651

06-22-06, 10:57 AM

Thanks to everyone on this thread you helped me make my decision...HD-DVD is in my sights...after all this time reading all the specs on these two formats I thought for sure it was a no brainier BD was the one to beat. HD-DVD gets my cash. ;)

suffolk112000

06-22-06, 12:30 PM

the thing i don't get and i have to throw the bs flag on sony is that the official launch of the software was supposed to happen MAY 23rd...this 'we had to rush the software out' crap seems like damage control and spin.

they should have never launched this way, even with the competition already out, since the first impression should be your best impression and since 'content is king' they have no excuse for not getting the content right.

i am excited to hear that the new sony xbrs may get hdmi 1.3, but it is probably another empty promise.

i am waiting to pick up one of their new 1080p lcd flat panels this winter...any word on them having hdmi 1.3?

Exactly...
Does it really matter if it is the hardware or the software. The bottom line is there is a weak link in the chain for BD right now. I hope BD gets it together soon. I am actually one who believes a short lived format war is a good thing for us as consumers. It should eventually make the product better and drive down prices. My guess is, if the war continues on into next year, we will see titles released that we would have had to wait for years to see because of the drive to be on top when a winner is eventually crowned.

Craig

Kolosos

06-22-06, 12:56 PM

MPEG2 isn't ideal and VC-1 is needed BADLY, but it seems that Sony may have also just plain botched their BD titles for whatever reason... MPEG2 or not.

yeah sure typical American Patriotism, but it's fact that Sony still has the option to bring out Movies made with AVC HP as they did for HD-DVD (Biohazard), don't forget they already support AVC in Devices like the PSP and PS3 and soon in the Broadcast area. There is no need to use Microsofts Video Compression (of wich most algorithms are adapted from H.264) even if Sony's Mpeg-2 fails the quality compare, they gonna adapt fast over to AVC (it's just switching the encoder)
And you will see how even low production values like Resident Evil encoded with AVC HP Level 4.1 and FGM are gona hit Microsoft and most Hollywood VC-1 HD-DVD's done with VC-1 AP hard in direct Quality compares ;)
Microsoft can be happy that Sony didn't gone this way on Release yet :D (and decided for Mpeg-2), but im sure they gona change that in the Future and most European and Asian Blue-Ray releases will be in AVC HP for sure, at least the ones from Sony by then and till then the prices will drop :)
Everyone that knows Sony's History also knows that their stuff was allways expensive but allways also High-Tech for the Time it was released (Walkman,Betamax,CD,PS,PSP,PS3,Blue-Ray) but somehow this changed with Blue-Ray and the discission for Mpeg-2 (whyever) Sony's R&D is still as big as Microsofts when not even bigger, especially in the Hardware area (and of the same potential Brain wise).
And you will decide wich of them is gonna Win and get into our Daily lives in the End the Battle that is fought here is not really about the Format itself it's more about the Video Codec and it's Quality (and who owns our homes for the next decade) but it's sadly also a War between Asia and the American Empire :rolleyes:

CPanther95

06-22-06, 02:57 PM

Ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Most of us want quality regardless of the source nation. If we agreed with you that Sony was waging an anti-American economic war, you'd see BD support dry up overnight.

G. L. Dybwad

06-22-06, 04:19 PM

...it's more about the Video Codec and it's Quality (and who owns our homes for the next decade) but it's sadly also a War between Asia and the American Empire :rolleyes:

There is another element to this debate: content security. The program owners, who rely on SD DVD for 60% or so of revenue, are loosing big time from increased pirating and need to transition to a new security format, aka high-def DVDs. The makers of the players on both sides have spent at least as much time devising improved content protection as devising codecs. The program owners want (need) one or both of the formats and players to "win" so that everyone can move on; I believe there is a thread in this section on DVD security. We the consumers will win in the end but we would best practice the Asian virtue of patience. [As a Corvette owner, I adhere to the old user adage "never buy the first year of a new design model."] G.L.D., ABQ, NM

SonyHD

06-23-06, 12:18 AM

Had a question about the compression technologies that are used in these disks. If say Warner Bros. used VC-1 on one of their disks, would Sony's machine be able to play the disk? I noticed that Sony's BD player is compatible with MPEG 2 and MPEG 4, while Samsung uses MPEG 2 and VC-1. I would hope if I bought either the Samsung unit or Sony's that either one wouldn't become obsolete in the future.

aviators99

06-23-06, 12:33 AM

Because you said your TV has 768 lines of vertical resolution, 1080i has 1080 lines of vertical resolution, and 768 is less than 1080.

1080i has 540 lines of vertical resolution. 768p has 768 lines of verticle resolution. 768 is greater than 540.

amirm

06-23-06, 12:34 AM

it's fact that Sony still has the option to bring out Movies made with AVC HP as they did for HD-DVD (Biohazard)
Given the fact that Biohazard doesn't look that great compared to VC-1 HD DVDs, I am not sure that is saying much. But then again, Biohazard does look better than BD titles....

don't forget they already support AVC in Devices like the PSP and PS3 and soon in the Broadcast area.
And PSP supports Microsoft's Windows Media Audio (WMA) codec ;).

There is no need to use Microsofts Video Compression (of wich most algorithms are adapted from H.264)
Microsoft has patent and IP position in H.264. Microsoft also chaired the committee that created H.264 :).

if Sony's Mpeg-2 fails the quality compare, they gonna adapt fast over to AVC (it's just switching the encoder)
“if”? I think they have already failed. But since they have announced that they want to stay with MPEG-2 for the foreseeable future, they would have to first admit to being wrong before switching.

Microsoft can be happy that Sony didn't gone this way on Release yet :D (and decided for Mpeg-2), but im sure they gona change that in the Future and most European and Asian Blue-Ray releases will be in AVC HP for sure, at least the ones from Sony by then and till then the prices will drop :)
Yup, we are happy :).

As for Europe, Studio Canal is encoding HD DVD movies in VC-1.

Everyone that knows Sony's History also knows that their stuff was allways expensive but allways also High-Tech for the Time it was released
That was the days I worked there. But they have lost their touch.

Sony's R&D is still as big as Microsofts when not even bigger, especially in the Hardware area (and of the same potential Brain wise).
We don’t claim to be smarter than Sony people. We simply believe in executing well and following through with our promises. Per above, I worked for Sony for years and at a number of companies making broadcast video equipment. I have top people on my team that really know video, and compression. We combined that with expertise in major post houses and studios and produced the quality that you see on HD DVD titles using VC-1.

but it's sadly also a War between Asia and the American Empire :rolleyes:
This doesn’t make any sense. Our partner in HD DVD is Toshiba….

amirm

06-23-06, 12:48 AM

1080i has 540 lines of vertical resolution.
Actually, 1080i can have anywhere between 1080 and 540 lines of vertical resolution. On a fully static picture (on a digital display at least), you get 1080 lines. On a fully moving image, when recorded at 1080i, then you have 540. For progressively encoded material such as HD DVD, the resolution is always 1080.

Kolosos

06-23-06, 07:05 AM

Given the fact that Biohazard doesn't look that great compared to VC-1 HD DVDs, I am not sure that is saying much. But then again, Biohazard does look better than BD titles....

Agreed Biohazard didn't show the full capacity of AVC that's true, and also sad @ the same time.

And PSP supports Microsoft's Windows Media Audio (WMA) codec ;).

Yes, but you first need to activate it Online, urgh sorry but no thx. :P
Also why should i use Microsofts proprietary WMA that's closely tied to Windows if i can use a superior format like AAC that can be played on every Platform and Device and is backed up by the whole industry and developed by the greatest it and math brains on our World ?

Microsoft has patent and IP position in H.264. Microsoft also chaired the committee that created H.264 :).

Sure they have but only a small amount or do you want to say Microsoft developed H.264 alone, but yeah that's typical MS behavior (without us and our Money it would have never been possible bla bla)

If you could say something like this "wich you can't, because it was a international effort" you should replace Microsoft with Fraunhofer instead

“if”? I think they have already failed. But since they have announced that they want to stay with MPEG-2 for the foreseeable future, they would have to first admit to being wrong before switching.

And i hope they do or at least bring out better mastered Blue-Rays i don't understand that many people here say that Sonys Mpeg-2 Encoder Quality is bad i saw Sony Samples made with it and they where superior for the Bitrate like "Faszination Natur" or "A Place in the Sun" it doesn't fit what people are telling here about the Quality.

Yup, we are happy :).

As for Europe, Studio Canal is encoding HD DVD movies in VC-1.

That says nothing it's about Money Money Money... and surely you want to make me belive that Hollywood's discission for VC-1 is based on it's superior Quality :rolleyes:

That was the days I worked there. But they have lost their touch.

See see a traitor :rolleyes:

Lost their touch nah im not sure about that they have stuff in the Labs that Microsoft Research still dreams off for sure :p

We don’t claim to be smarter than Sony people. We simply believe in executing well and following through with our promises. Per above, I worked for Sony for years and at a number of companies making broadcast video equipment. I have top people on my team that really know video, and compression. We combined that with expertise in major post houses and studios and produced the quality that you see on HD DVD titles using VC-1.

Ok but this still is no evidence that VC-1 is technologically more advanced then AVC :P and the same problems as with WMA it doesn't work on every Platform and MS want's to kill everything that does, see the TPM industry problematic and Open Source, i still wonder why your Platform Manager left but seems he woke up ;)

This doesn’t make any sense. Our partner in HD DVD is Toshiba….

Ok, and where's the Problem "Your best friend is your worst enemy" you know, it always was in history like that and it always will be like that. JVT was your friend too and you stabbed it in the Back (metaphorically speaking), so why shouldn't Toshiba stab you in the back in the Future, the whole industry likes to stab someone in the back. It became like a Sport in the Industry.

CPanther95

06-23-06, 07:19 AM

Please stay on topic - end user reports of the Sammy.

If you want to discuss broader issues, start a new thread.

Cocteau

06-23-06, 07:46 AM

Ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Most of us want quality regardless of the source nation. If we agreed with you that Sony was waging an anti-American economic war, you'd see BD support dry up overnight.

LOL, I agree.

Help me out here please.....

What percentage of movies will Sony have an exclusive on? I'm tring to remember all the merger and acquisitions over the years.

What I'm getting at is if you say something like 15% or even 25%, what's the point of going with Blu-Ray given the poor reviews?

Thanks.

SonyHD

06-23-06, 11:45 AM

I was checking the codec specs on the Samsung and Sony players. Can they read and detect all the different codecs? I noticed on Samsung's website that it mentions MPEG 2 and VC1. I believe Sony's is MEPG2, MPEG4 AVC, VC1. Are all these just the Blu-ray specs or are they directly tied to each player? I wouldn't want to get one of these players if later on one would become obsolete.

user7800

06-23-06, 11:58 AM

?why not just waiy for PS3 that has BD.I have the sony up-convert and it does almost as well
as stuff on Xbox360s HDD at 1080I,and cost like 120.PS3=600

nilsp

06-23-06, 12:51 PM

Sony HD, all Blu-ray players are required to play back all three video codecs. Advanced audio codecs are optional.

SonyHD

06-23-06, 02:34 PM

nilsp, thanks for the reply...

aviators99

06-23-06, 06:16 PM

Actually, 1080i can have anywhere between 1080 and 540 lines of vertical resolution. On a fully static picture (on a digital display at least), you get 1080 lines. On a fully moving image, when recorded at 1080i, then you have 540. For progressively encoded material such as HD DVD, the resolution is always 1080.

Then it's not 1080i on the HD DVD, right?

rfgmdporsc

06-23-06, 06:26 PM

HD-DVD is 1080p on the disc.

Rafael

talbain

06-24-06, 02:02 AM

I said I would wait anyway to see what the deal was, they replied with, but we have no blu-ray disc to play. Jeez, you figure Samsung would have at least a demo disc to show off their player. Watta bummer. We the wait continues.

this is what i was thinking as well. you would think that for spending $1000 on a player they'd at the very least package some sort of demo disc to help you justify your purchase and test the damn thing out...

DrJRapp

06-24-06, 07:57 AM

Sony and the Blu-ray group may have shot themselves in the foot with the poor PQ of the initial releases. Strong rumors leaking out of Disney Studios in Orlando indicate as a result of the PQ issue, Disney, under pressure from Pixtar has chosen to release it's movies on HD DVD. This is a big blow to the BR camp when it comes to studio support, and helps equalize HD DVDs weak point.

The Blu-ray group could have done better. I own both the Toshiba XA1 and the Samsung BDP1000. The direct comparison of the images can best be made with the FBI logo and warning screens. Thaty's as near as anyone can come to identical material so far. The Blu-ray image is every bit as sharp and detailed as the HDDVD...it's just the movie choices are so poor and poorly transferred to digital that Blu-ray seems so weak by comparison.

BenDover

06-24-06, 08:10 AM

...

Strong rumors leaking out of Disney Studios in Orlando indicate as a result of the PQ issue, Disney, under pressure from Pixtar has chosen to release it's movies on HD DVD. This is a big blow to the BR camp when it comes to studio support, and helps equalize HD DVDs weak point.

...

can you provide a little more info on the source of these rumors; i.e., not necessarily naming names, but an indication of where these "rumors" emanate from?

longshot

06-24-06, 10:44 AM

can you provide a little more info on the source of these rumors; i.e., not necessarily naming names, but an indication of where these "rumors" emanate from?

Not necessary. If this is true we will know sooner rather than later.

sfhub

06-24-06, 10:54 AM

The Blu-ray group could have done better. I own both the Toshiba XA1 and the Samsung BDP1000. The direct comparison of the images can best be made with the FBI logo and warning screens. Thaty's as near as anyone can come to identical material so far. The Blu-ray image is every bit as sharp and detailed as the HDDVD...it's just the movie choices are so poor and poorly transferred to digital that Blu-ray seems so weak by comparison.
I was going to post about the FBI logo too, but then I noticed the speckled background of the FBI logo frame seems to be shifting or pulsating on the BluRay version where it doesn't do that on the HD-DVD version. I'm using the logo from Terminator as a comparison point. The logo itself is every bit as sharp as HD-DVD.

The SWAT preview is a much better indication of what BD can do. You get the 3d-look and sharpness of HD-DVD but there are still some slight artifacts but no so much as to be objectionable like on HOFD and 5E.

My 4MP digicam shots don't look as good as on my 1920x1200 laptop monitor, but they look better than the BD releases so far, even though they appear to be downsampled by the player. This is on a 1920x1080 display.