My boat has the Panny in it too! Especially after the glowing reviews of the AX100 from PJC.

Heh - I know the feeling. My "short" list now includes AX100, AX1000, HC5000, and Pearl. Further muddying the water is the possibility to finally take the HD plunge in the living room with a plasma or XBR2, and leave the basement PJ upgrade for another year...

It's getting hard not to be excited about this little steal.

Pertaining to the post on the powerbuy...no can do. Mitsu is very protective of this piece. In fact, there are already some places posting extremely low pricing. Rest assured they will NOT be getting any units at that price and likely will be losing the line. It's a very protected piece.

I apologize Jason, I misunderstood your statement yesterday.

I look forward to your thoughts on the 5000. Any chance of getting a demo of that bad-boy? :D I'd love to see how it handles SD and HD DirecTV signals as well as HD DVD before I make my decision. :cool:

Yes once it arrives I will be happy to demo it. :)

Pertaining to the post on the powerbuy...no can do. Mitsu is very protective of this piece. In fact, there are already some places posting extremely low pricing. Rest assured they will NOT be getting any units at that price and likely will be losing the line. It's a very protected piece.

I see my $3K dreams going up in smoke... :(

I see my $3K dreams going up in smoke... :(
You should be able to get the Panny for $3k, if that's any consolation.

Anyone notice the HC5000 screenshots have disappeared from the cine4home website, I wonder whats going on there?

new ones to come that look better with a working DI would be my guess

Does anyone know if this will offer vertical stretching (or whatever it's called, exactly), so that it can be used with an anamorphic lens for those of us with 2.35:1 setups? I currently am using a VP30 in my theater and wouldn't mind moving it to my TV projector if the HC5000 has good enough processing and can handle the required stretching.

The HC5000 is now for preorder and will be available by the end of next week. Appantly the place that I ordered from is only getting the black (BL) model...that could be the "case" everywhere in the US for about a month. I for one like the idea of getting a black pj. My last three have been fairly white.

Check with Jason here at AVS - he gave me an excellent price. That combined with AVS's 30 day satisfaction policy makes them very hard to beat - especially when you're ordering before much is known about the projector.

I'll be waiting for Jasons review later this week or early next week before deciding between the Pearl or the HC5000. And yeah, I'll definitely go black if they got em.

Check with Jason here at AVS - he gave me an excellent price. That combined with AVS's 30 day satisfaction policy makes them very hard to beat - especially when you're ordering before much is known about the projector.

I'll be waiting for Jasons review later this week or early next week before deciding between the Pearl or the HC5000. And yeah, I'll definitely go black if they got em.

Where can I read about the 30 day 'satisfaction policy'? Tx, Bill

Where can I read about the 30 day 'satisfaction policy'? Tx, Bill

Go here: return policy (http://www.avscience.com/warranty_returns.htm)

Go here: return policy (http://www.avscience.com/warranty_returns.htm)

Thanks much.

My dealings with AVS have always been positive. I was not even aware that they had such a policy. Would this cover the exchange of a projector that, for example, has faulty pixels or bad colour uniformity?

Our return policy covers satisfaction yes. Generally defects are depending on the manufacturers specs. So, in other words, if you get one that you aren't happy with you can send it back. If it is within spec, I will exchange it once. If the next one is not acceptable, but within spec, you can return it for a refund. The simple fact with LCD's is that they may have a dead pixel here and there. We take it on a case by case basis, but obviously we cannot send 10 units to each person until they get one that is "perfect" in their eyes.
I can tell you this is the best policy you will find on one of these.
Of course, if there are problems that are blatently wrong, then we will continue to work until we get it right.

I should also mention this rarely happens (usually they are perfect out of the box).

Jason-
Who could ask for anything more?

Do you resell the ones that are returned in spec at a lower price? what about the projectors you have to buy to review? (some might even be willing to pay more since it's precalibrated =P)

If the Pearl is a better projector than the Mits, I want someone to prove it. Even at even money, I have people telling me that they prefer the sharper Mits optics over the Pearl. I haven't seen either one yet, so I'm not in a positition to make a call, (and maybe these guys were trying to sell me a projector.) But I don't yet accept the proposition that the Mits is a cheaper, but a little lower quality, Pearl alternative. We need some reviews to see just how these two stack up.

I cant wait for some head to head comparisons between these 2 units.

If the Pearl is a better projector than the Mits, I want someone to prove it. Even at even money, I have people telling me that they prefer the sharper Mits optics over the Pearl. I haven't seen either one yet, so I'm not in a positition to make a call, (and maybe these guys were trying to sell me a projector.) But I don't yet accept the proposition that the Mits is a cheaper, but a little lower quality, Pearl alternative. We need some reviews to see just how these two stack up.


I've always found that Sony products are usually overpriced. Of course most of their products are excellent but one can usually find alternate products which cost less and provide equally excellent results.

The Mits also has a much easier install range and doesn't require the projector to turn turtle if shelf mounted. I am very interested in hearing more about this pj.

The HC5000 is now for preorder and will be available by the end of next week.

Looks like we will be getting some reviews here pretty quick. Right now, it's between the Mits and Pearl for me.

I will have my review up with the Pearl likely next week.Very much looking forward to this Jason. You'll probably do this anyway, but please would you mention how good the panel convergence is?

Thanks,
Joel

I wonder how the HC5000 will beat the Pearl. Say from HDDVD 1080i/p source:

The LCD and SXRD technology is almost the same when speaking of RGB colors. So color depth may be similar. But the Pearl has its reflective SXRD-panel and thus better blacklevel and shadowdetail. I also think colors will be better in dark areas on the Pearl due to the SXRD-technology.

The fillrate is also better than the D6-panel and the Pearl should have much better 3D effect. I think that the HC5000 may "seem" sharper due to more screendoor, but I would be very surprised if the Pearl shows less detail than of the HC5000...

But it will be very a exciting shootout :rolleyes:

I wonder how the HC5000 will beat the Pearl. Say from HDDVD 1080i/p source:

The LCD and SXRD technology is almost the same when speaking of RGB colors. So color depth may be similar. But the Pearl has its reflective SXRD-panel and thus better blacklevel and shadowdetail. I also think colors will be better in dark areas on the Pearl due to the SXRD-technology.

The fillrate is also better than the D6-panel and the Pearl should have much better 3D effect. I think that the HC5000 may "seem" sharper due to more screendoor, but I would be very surprised if the Pearl shows less detail than of the HC5000...

But it will be very a exciting shootout :rolleyes:
Not sure why you'd come to a Mitsubishi thread to make inflammatory comments, but to each his own.

You're talking a lot of theory and specs. And yes, they *should* translate into the Pearl being a bit better. But specs and *shoulds* don't always pan out the way you predict. So yes, we think it might be an "exciting" shootout.

I don't think screendoor is going to come into this (but I may be wrong). The sharpness is going to be down to the quality of the lens and optical paths and, critically, panel convergence. At least one forum member has reported a one pixel panel misalignment in a Pearl which can't help sharpness. Can the Mits do better (consistently)?

The Pearl will have better contrast - I think that's a given. What intrigues me is how the black levels will compare. Will the light leakage through "off" D6 pixels compare with what is reflected from "off" SXRD pixels?

I wonder how the HC5000 will beat the Pearl. Say from HDDVD 1080i/p source:

The LCD and SXRD technology is almost the same when speaking of RGB colors. So color depth may be similar. But the Pearl has its reflective SXRD-panel and thus better blacklevel and shadowdetail. I also think colors will be better in dark areas on the Pearl due to the SXRD-technology.

The fillrate is also better than the D6-panel and the Pearl should have much better 3D effect. I think that the HC5000 may "seem" sharper due to more screendoor, but I would be very surprised if the Pearl shows less detail than of the HC5000...

But it will be very a exciting shootout :rolleyes:

Because the Mits is alleged to be using a better lens system, it is supposed to be a sharper image. From your post, it's not clear how much you value lens quality, but I personally believe it's a significant factor in overall picture quality, particularly when we talk about "sharpness".

The Mits is supposed to have a better scaler and be brighter as well, but I'm mostly interested in the lens quality of the Mit's. I want to see how much of an advantage that is.

The Pearl will have better contrast - I think that's a given.

Why do you believe this is a given? C2Fine D6 panels were reported to have something llike 5 times the contrast of the D5 panels. I for one would not be surprised if the Mitsubishi has a native contrast (DI disabled) that is at least equivalent to the Pearl.

I have yet to be overally impressed with a LCD display. The HS51 was acceptable, but the shortcomings of LCD (banding, fixed panel noise, horrible ANSI levels, non film-like picture) were always dealbreakers.

I hope the Mits makes some improvements in these areas, but my preference is LCOS or even DLP before I look at LCD. Hoepfully this will change with the Mits, but my expectations are pretty low.

Why do you believe this is a given? C2Fine D6 panels were reported to have something llike 5 times the contrast of the D5 panels. I for one would not be surprised if the Mitsubishi has a native contrast (DI disabled) that is at least equivalent to the Pearl.

I would be very (pleasantly) surprised by this.

Why do you believe this is a given? C2Fine D6 panels were reported to have something llike 5 times the contrast of the D5 panels. I for one would not be surprised if the Mitsubishi has a native contrast (DI disabled) that is at least equivalent to the Pearl.
According to cine4home.de it's 1500:1 which is << 5000:1 from the Pearl. ??

I think that the Pearl has better contrast. But it will be interesting to see if the Mits has a better optics system, processing, and is a bit brighter, and to see how this effects the big picture.

The cine4home.de pre-review was on a prototype - if I recall the review was yanked. 1500:1 native is surprisingly low, however, I believe Jason measured the native contrast of the Pearl at not much higher.

I wonder how the HC5000 will beat the Pearl. Say from HDDVD 1080i/p source:

The LCD and SXRD technology is almost the same when speaking of RGB colors. So color depth may be similar. But the Pearl has its reflective SXRD-panel and thus better blacklevel and shadowdetail. I also think colors will be better in dark areas on the Pearl due to the SXRD-technology.

The fillrate is also better than the D6-panel and the Pearl should have much better 3D effect. I think that the HC5000 may "seem" sharper due to more screendoor, but I would be very surprised if the Pearl shows less detail than of the HC5000...

But it will be very a exciting shootout :rolleyes:

From what I've read, it sounds like the video processor in the Mits is quite a bit better than the one in the Pearl, and when one gets to the quality level of both of these products, it seem that video processing is what separates the final PQ that is delivered. That's why so many people see a pronounced improvement when a VP is used with the Ruby.

The HC5000 is going to be an exciting LCD pj and with CR up to 1500:1 we can finally have an alternative to DLP. But to think it will have the CR of the Pearl :eek: ... no way possible with LCD-panels. Remember that the D5 had CR of 700-900:1...

So when the press start testing these two wonders, I will make my choise.

One thing IS clear. The HC5000 will knock out plenty of 720p DLPs, I think. And because of the Pearl/ HC5000 aggressive pricing - all DLPs will have to follow :)

FYI...my stock order is enroute. I will have my review up with the Pearl likely next week.
Whoo hoo!

Is it next week yet? ;)

I've got checkbook in hand! :D

I am probably going to buy either the HC5000 or the Sony Pearl just like just about everyone else here. Either way I have a question. I have a B&K AVR which doesn't have HDMI capability, only component. Obviously if and when I get into BluRay or HD DVD, the player will have HDMI outputs. I really do not want to replace my B&K, in fact B&K doesn't offer HDMI on their latest amplifiers. How can I manage this apparent problem and how much of a sacrifice will I be making by not having a continuous HDMI path from player to PJ? I am not what you would call a power user of video so be gentle. Thx. in advance.

The HC5000 is going to be an exciting LCD pj and with CR up to 1500:1 we can finally have an alternative to DLP. But to think it will have the CR of the Pearl :eek: ... no way possible with LCD-panels. Remember that the D5 had CR of 700-900:1..

D5 projectors have native contrast ratios in the 500-1000:1 range without a DI. D6 panels are reported to have a native contrast 5 times higher. Now add a DI and you can see that it is very reasonable to expect D6 projectors to have the potential for CRs comparable to the Pearl or Ruby. The overall projector design will dictate the final CR.

I have a B&K AVR which doesn't have HDMI capability, only component. Obviously if and when I get into BluRay or HD DVD, the player will have HDMI outputs. I really do not want to replace my B&K, in fact B&K doesn't offer HDMI on their latest amplifiers. How can I manage this apparent problem and how much of a sacrifice will I be making by not having a continuous HDMI path from player to PJ? I am not what you would call a power user of video so be gentle.

To use your B&K, just go component out of your HD DVD and/or BluRay player, into your receiver, and then component from the receiver to your projector. The other option is to go straight HDMI from your player to the projector. There are pluses and minuses to each approach.

Biggest thing you will lose by going component, is that you will lose the upconversion ability built into the player (at least current players). I dunno how the scaling built into the Mitsu compares to that of the current HD/BR players though.

I would, or atleast for me, run all my video STRAIGHT to the projector. If you have too many HDMI's then get a switcher....IMHO

And for all you who are bashing this pj solely based on specs and the past, I think we will have a pleasant suprise with the 5000. All I've had were LCD's and with this "evolutionary" jump in performance, it will give the pearl a run for it's money. .02 cents

I am probably going to buy either the HC5000 or the Sony Pearl just like just about everyone else here. Either way I have a question. I have a B&K AVR which doesn't have HDMI capability, only component. Obviously if and when I get into BluRay or HD DVD, the player will have HDMI outputs. I really do not want to replace my B&K, in fact B&K doesn't offer HDMI on their latest amplifiers. How can I manage this apparent problem and how much of a sacrifice will I be making by not having a continuous HDMI path from player to PJ? I am not what you would call a power user of video so be gentle. Thx. in advance.

My AVR doesn't have HDMI switching capability either, I'm simply planning on running an HDMI cable from the projector to an HDMI switch, they can be had fairly inexpensive from many places, including forum sponsor Monoprice (http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&style=). Then simply run your audio from the player through the AVR and voila! :cool:

Sounds like LCD on a whole new level. I bet this thing does indeed look very good. Cant wait to see one. Ive never been an LCD supporter but my Panasonic AE700 turned me around.

D5 projectors have native contrast ratios in the 500-1000:1 range without a DI. D6 panels are reported to have a native contrast 5 times higher. Now add a DI and you can see that it is very reasonable to expect D6 projectors to have the potential for CRs comparable to the Pearl or Ruby. The overall projector design will dictate the final CR.
From the Epson site; The D5 panel CR was 450:1, the D6 is 1,500:1 that is the native CR

http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/2006/news_20060914.htm

The SXRD panels in the Pearl have a panel CR of 5,000:1

I don't think screendoor is going to come into this (but I may be wrong). The sharpness is going to be down to the quality of the lens and optical paths and, critically, panel convergence. At least one forum member has reported a one pixel panel misalignment in a Pearl which can't help sharpness. Can the Mits do better (consistently)?

The Pearl will have better contrast - I think that's a given. What intrigues me is how the black levels will compare. Will the light leakage through "off" D6 pixels compare with what is reflected from "off" SXRD pixels?

In their own words about the C2 Fine panels;

"When voltage is not being applied, the liquid crystal molecules are aligned vertically against the glass substrate, so there is no leakage of light as with conventional LCD systems, ensuring more beautiful reproduction of black."

Oh sure, spoil my fantasy world. Actually, I don't think it is clear how Epson specs their panel CR. Some D5 projectors are capable of far greater than 450:1 on-off with the DI disabled. Heck the 2 year old Epson Cinema 500 had about 1000:1 contrast with D5 (or was it D4?) panels. Until we see real-world measurements of the Mitsubishi and upcoming Panasonic D6 projectors, and the Pearl (didn't Jason measure about 1600:1 with the Pearl with the DI turned off?), I would not put much stock in the numbers you posted.

Can't wait to see these D6 LCD's against the Pearl and perhaps the latest JVC Dila. I think the ultimate useful comparison would be a shootout between the Sony Pearl, JVC's latest D-ILA and the Panny AE 1080 and Mitsubishi HC 5000BL. I think the latest LCD projectors have a decent chance against the LCOS stuff. Myself and others are already happy with our Hitachi TX200, Panny AE 700/900's etc. I know the blacks are actually grey, but I started with the AE100 and going up to the TX200 made a very noticable improvement that makes movies very enjoyable. Of course I want better, we all do. So if the LCD's are at least comparable to the Sony and JVC LCOS tech, then depending on price, they may be killer products :)

It is kind of cool that the Mitsubishi has both DVI and HDMI inputs.

EDIT. I see that they will be available in Canada, but I don't know for how much yet. I am going to guess almost as much as the Pearl. We need a shootout!

Oh sure, spoil my fantasy world...
I would not put much stock in the numbers you posted.
Not to spoil your fanstasy, but the numbers posted are the manufacturer's panel CR specification.

Product on/off CR can be higher than panel CR for LCD products. The panel CR must be achieved under simultaneous CR conditions (conceptual checkerboard). In an on/off, all black then all white, the panels typically have more range, thus higher numbers.

Bottom line;
D6 panels are 1,500:1 CR
SXRD panels are 5,000:1 CR

Bottom line;
D6 panels are 1,500:1 CR
SXRD panels are 5,000:1 CR

Problem with that is real world numbers without DI probably are lot more comparable even if manufacter reported panel CR might not be. If its like D5 then its 3330:1 without DI for D6.

Anyways.. mitsubishi should include more horizontal lens shift..only 5%.

Problem with that is real world numbers without DI probably are lot more comparable even if manufacter reported panel CR might not be. If its like D5 then its 3330:1 without DI for D6.
DLP vendors will have a hard time if LCD D6 1080p pjs are 3,300:1 native! :)

A D65 cal. LCD with CR of 3000:1? I will not belive that before an official test is made. But 1500:1 is more realistic.

Cine4home test showed:

Pearl measured (without D65 standard)
Iris Closed: 6000:1
DI: 20000:1

With D65:
Iris closed: 4000:1
DI: 16000:1

But if the HC5000 measures 1500:1 D65 and 10000:1 DI with supersharp lens, that would be fantastic.

But we should not be so concerned with numbers, it is the real (HD)-picture that counts. The HC5000 will probably be tough to beat by any pj in that pricerange.

I think we will have two pj with different pic.philosophy, and maybe impossible to say which one is the best. I think it will come down to "which is more pleasing to my eyes" ;)

"Not to spoil your fanstasy, but the numbers posted are the manufacturer's panel CR specification.

Product on/off CR can be higher than panel CR for LCD products. The panel CR must be achieved under simultaneous CR conditions (conceptual checkerboard). In an on/off, all black then all white, the panels typically have more range, thus higher numbers.

Bottom line;
D6 panels are 1,500:1 CR
SXRD panels are 5,000:1 CR"

You left out that the D5 panels are 450:1, presumably by the same measure (Epson's) as the D6's.

I believe the Epson 500 achieved 1100:1 with its "450:1" panels, so using the same scaling factor, a D6 pj would have 3700:1 native on/off CR.

I can tell you by having two test units that the contrast is a lot better than on D5-panels. I would actually prefere it to a D5 with iris, with iris off on the mits. But thats because im not overy fond of how the iris is implemented on most D5 projectors.

Its however not in the range of 3000-4000 native, but with the iris in the closed possition it is pretty good, like a good DC2 DLP. I have measured it but cannot put out numbers based on our test examples.

Street prices for the Mitsubishi and Pearl seem very close to me, less than $1000 USD apart. I think it is a close contest and if the Pearl is still better, than it may be worth it. If, on the other hand, the Mits is better (fairly unlikely I know, but I believe anything is possible at this point)...or if the Mits is at least very close, then the Mits is a clear winner, if not more of a bargain than the Pearl. Comparing the Mits 5000, Panny 1000 and Pearl is the ultimate test. I am also curious what street price the latest JVC D-ILA will be and how that will compare.

The upcoming JVC sure sounds nice with JVC's spec of 8,000-10,000:1 native. Hopefully it will be price competitive with the Pearl, however, I think it will be more expensive given JVC's history, especially if it is a much better performer.

Havocsi, when you say the HC5000 is like a good darkchip2 DLP, are we talking sim2 domino D35 good? Or Optoma HD72 good?

Another thing not mention thus far is D6 panel noise. I've just bought a "cheap" AE900 as a stop gap until the Mits is available and has dropped in price a bit. It's a nice PJ, but the D5 panel noise is awful...

... no way possible with LCD-panels. Remember that the D5 had CR of 700-900:1...

Can you please explain why?

D5 panel noise is worse than D4 panel noise. That I agree. With my TX200 its not horrible, but its disappointing. Things don't look quite as crisp all the time. It's mostly only visible in the less sharp, less detailed areas of the picture in some dvd scenes. When things are sharp and detailed, they look fine, and the better contrast and blacks with the D5 lcd projectors and DI make it all worth while. I agree though, hopefully the lcd panel noise on the D6 is lower than the D5. If the panel noise is back down to D4 levels, I think we'll be ok. And of course there is always the issues of colour uniformity and vertical banding. One never knows how these will be until the results are in, and sometimes when you get a projector that tested well, your sample isn't the best example either. Lets hope quality control and consistency are high with all of these new generation pj's including the Sony and JVC.

...You left out that the D5 panels are 450:1, presumably by the same measure (Epson's) as the D6's.

I believe the Epson 500 achieved 1100:1 with its "450:1" panels, so using the same scaling factor, a D6 pj would have 3700:1 native on/off CR.
I noted the D5 450:1 in my first set of Epson numbers!

Well we now have votes of 3,330:1 and 3,700:1 native for D6.

My vote is 1,500 to 2,000:1 native CR!

What is "Native" On / Off CR? CR with DI disabled? Or is it CR with the iris in the open position? If it is the latter, my vote would be <= 1500:1.

So Jason.. have you gotten one set up yet? I'm really looking forward to your impressions given AVS's excellent pricing (pitch pitch). I can't take my burnt polarizers for another week!! :eek:

"I noted the D5 450:1 in my first set of Epson numbers!"

Yes, but you yourself said it was a simultaneous CR measurement, and you compared it with SXRD on/off - not valid.

Was a spec for throw ratio range ever released? I searched the thread, and all I found was a calculation.

Thanks

My vote is 1,500 to 2,000:1 native CR!

You would be right this is from an article on cine4home.de website and the CR for D6 is 1,500:1.

Technology
D5
D6

Effective pixels
1280 x 720 (720p)
1920 x 1080 (1080p)

0.7 inch (1.8 cm)
0.7 inch (1.9 cm)

Pixel pitch
12 µm
8.5 µm

Aperture ratio
59%
43%

Contrast
450:1
1500:1

Was a spec for throw ratio range ever released? I searched the thread, and all I found was a calculation.

Thanks

1.52 - 2.46 or 1.6:1

Specs (http://www.mitsubishi-presentations.com/products/projectors/HC5000BL.html)

ted

So...has anyone seen one of these yet? Like everyone else, I'm very anxious to hear some first hand reports, preferably including a direct comparison between the HC5000 and the Pearl.

That is exactly what I want to see. I am curious about the JVC and Panny, but my main interest in how the Mits and Pearl compare.

"I noted the D5 450:1 in my first set of Epson numbers!"

Yes, but you yourself said it was a simultaneous CR measurement, and you compared it with SXRD on/off - not valid.
They are both panel CR specs which are typically the same as simultaneous. How did you come to the conclusion that the SXRD numbers were on/off?

Ted,

"1.52 - 2.46 or 1.6:1"

Fantastic, thanks! It'll just work for me.

I did a search and came across a link to spec's, but it was dead.

"How did you come to the conclusion that the SXRD numbers were on/off?"

Because simultaneous is almost never used by mfgr's.

How did you come to the conclusion that the SXRD numbers are simulataneous?

Manufacturer quoted CR is not simultaneous CR. I don't think there is a single DLP / LCD / LCOS projector that can get a checkerboard / ANSI CR of 1500:1. D5 projectors can't get a 450:1 ANSI / simultaneous contrast either. How exactly Epson came up with the oft-quoted 450:1 CR for D5 is not known, but the higher non-DI CRs are achieved with the help of a closed iris and light scatter absorbing techniques. A D5 projector without any kind of iris (not even a fixed internal one) probably wouldn't get close to 1200:1 on / off CR, especially not at D65 with a UHP. Cine4home measured 950:1 at 6500K on the Hitachi TX200 (D5 LCD) with its dual irises clamped down and DI off.

The Pearl was measured at 6000:1 "static" on / off CR with the iris closed, and its native color temp (cine4home) and there was a ">4000:1" number posted for the 6500K on / off CR with DI off, which is why I was asking how exactly "native" CR is determined, as I see all kinds of contrast number bandied about with the term native thrown in.

When can we expect a review of the Mitsubishi? When will it reach the hands of consumers?

by this next Friday or sooner

by this next Friday or sooner

Eagerly awaiting Jason's review. :cool:

Manufacturer quoted CR is not simultaneous CR. I don't think there is a single DLP / LCD / LCOS projector that can get a checkerboard / ANSI CR of 1500:1. D5 projectors can't get a 450:1 ANSI / simultaneous contrast either..

You guys are confusing panel CR vs. device CR vs. ANSI CR vs. simultaneous CR. :)

We had this discussion > 1 year ago IIRC.
Panel CR is speced under per pixel (simultaneous) conditions. A panel spec of 450:1 meens that if an alternating on/off per pixel drive were applied, the output level between on and off would be 450:1. As I have stated before LCD/LCOS may have even higher full on/full off CR than their panel CR because of relaxed driving restrictions.

Note while the panel may be capable of such high simultaneous contrast, other devices in the light path ( polarizers, prisms, optical systems, ...) may limit the amount of simultaneous contrast when a panel is packaged into a projector.

ANSI CR is a specific simultaneous test involving a 4x4 checkboard which is typically not used to test panel level microdisplays. Note that flat panel LCDs have measuring > 900:1 ANSI CR, becaues they do not have any other devices in the light path which limits their simultaneous CR capabilities.

An exciting development which may apply to both LCOS and VAN LCD (C2Fine) is the new wire grid polarizers which could give a 10 fold increase in CR over the prior designs. JVC is using this in their prototype shown at CEDIA, which got rave reviews! Using the new polarizers you may see LCOS with native pj CR > 10,000:1, and > 500:1 ANSI CR!

Interesting, thanks for the explanation.

What, then, is device contrast? Which measurement corresponds to on/off CR?

Thanks

I just got an email from one of the forum sponsors saying the Mit's has been delayed to late November sometime. :( Can anyone confirm...he also stated the Panasonic will also be out in November.

I just got an email from one of the forum sponsors saying the Mit's has been delayed to late November sometime. :( Can anyone confirm...he also stated the Panasonic will also be out in November.


Ugh! They may have just lost my business to Sony...

From what I am hearing Epson will not release 1080P C2Fine panels for production runs until they have there’s out first. It is their technology I guess you can't blame them. I would look for Mits and Pano to come out in Jan 07.

Dale

Yeah...If this is true, the one good thing is I can order the Pearl tom :) I am not waiting till the end of Nov.


Just read the above post...Jan 07? I hope we can find out for sure if this is true soon.

Toe hopefully they will be out earlier. But I would bet Jan is a good date to be able to get one without waiting. With the Pearl out I am sure it is lighting a fire under Epson's a$$ to get something out very quick.

Dale

I thought Jason had his shipment on the way? I am sure he will let us know for sure if this is the case. Where you at Jason :)

I just got an email from one of the forum sponsors saying the Mit's has been delayed to late November sometime. :( Can anyone confirm...he also stated the Panasonic will also be out in November.

I was under the impression that Jason was getting one to test early this week and that they would be available for sale shortly.

The unit is being released in Japan on Oct 12th so his shipment can't be on its way. He must of been given bad info from his vendor.

Jason said "should come in the next couple of weeks". Don't hold your breath, but keep optimistic too;)

I will be setting up a HC5000 for demo today. It has a working IRIS. I will bring my color-analyzer to checkout how it looks.

cine4home will test the HC5000BL soon.

:)

cine4home will test the HC5000BL soon.

:)
I doubt it will be the HC5000BL... :(

I will be setting up a HC5000 for demo today. It has a working IRIS. I will bring my color-analyzer to checkout how it looks.

Per, looking forward to it! Can you please measure the max. lightout @ D65?

I will be setting up a HC5000 for demo today. It has a working IRIS. I will bring my color-analyzer to checkout how it looks.

I look forward to reading about it, and would second the request to see how many D65 lumens it produces.

BTW, when measuring the maximum lumens, could you ensure that the projector is set up with maximum zoom (as close to the screen as possible). Thanks.

Oh the humanity...So when should we be able to purchase the 5000 here stateside? Beginning, middle or near the end of November? I don't know about some of the other people in this thread, but being able to strike quickly whilst having a momentary lapse of fiscal responsibility is paramount when spending this much on a "toy". :D

I am with you BOSS10L. I would like to know as well, because if it will be a while I am going to grab the Pearl.

All the email said was late November for the Mits and just November sometime for the Panny.

I'm like all you guys...I'm wanting to make a move now...not in another one and half months. The end of Nov. puts it squarely in the christmas shopping season when the ole' checkbook will already be taking a beating. :p

Could just be the timeframe that your particular retailer could get his hands on stock and he made it sound like a global slip...

My mother asked me to help her buy a new TV set yesterday. We went to Fry's in San Diego expecting to buy an SXRD 55" display for $2200. When we got there, the picture on the SXRD was nothing special and its off axis performance was terrible. We gravitated over to the Mitsubishis and a 1080P DLP 65" in their Diamond line looked fantastic. The bright vivid, punchy image was head and shoulders over anything else in the store - especially the SXRD's.

We ended up purchasing the 65" Mitsubishi and she got a same as cash deal until 2008. My thoughts were:

1) Mitsubishi sure is putting out nice displays these days - I'll bet the HC5000 is going to be a nice projector;

2) The extra brightness sure makes a big difference;

3) I wish they were also putting out a projector version of the DLP 65" TV we bought; and

4) Damn, that Mitsubishi financing sure is impressive - I wonder if we'll find vendors will offer that on the projector.

I am with you BOSS10L. I would like to know as well, because if it will be a while I am going to grab the Pearl.


All the email said was late November for the Mits and just November sometime for the Panny.

I'm like all you guys...I'm wanting to make a move now...not in another one and half months. The end of Nov. puts it squarely in the christmas shopping season when the ole' checkbook will already be taking a beating. :p

Same here. It's looking like it will be either a Pearl or an inexpensive 720p until next year and then move up to 1080p. Truth be told, the Pearl was more than I was willing to spend. I was firmly planted in the 720p camp until I found out how reasonable the pricing on the Mitsu 5000 was going to be.

The wife and I leave for vacation in 2 weeks. Once we get back, we'll be in the Christmas mode, and any "fun money" will be re-appropriated. Damn.

Decisions, decisions....

Wow - it looks like my target of $3K for the 5000 could happen soon. A popular site in Japan (that most of us know about) was quoting $3700 for pre-order just last week. Today I checked and pre-order price is now down to $2983. Granted that's to order a projector from Japan, but it bodes very well for being able to buy one here for the same price.

If the reviews hold up and can be had for $3K or better - this is starting to look like my next projector.

Could just be the timeframe that your particular retailer could get his hands on stock and he made it sound like a global slip...

Man I hope your right but his wording was "Mits delayed..." so who knows. :confused: By the way...they are a "m.o.d." so they should be relatively "in the know". But again...I hope your right VK.

Wow - it looks like my target of $3K for the 5000 could happen soon. A popular site in Japan (that most of us know about) was quoting $3700 for pre-order just last week. Today I checked and pre-order price is now down to $2983. Granted that's to order a projector from Japan, but it bodes very well for being able to buy one here for the same price.

If the reviews hold up and can be had for $3K or better - this is starting to look like my next projector.
Anyone know if Mits has an international warranty? What about an english OSD? I know Panny took the english option off their overseas PJs...

You must be looking at the videogon ad;)

I doubt it will be the HC5000BL... :(

I asked cine4home via email and they responded that they will be testing the Mitsubishi soon...

As far as prices goes, well, I won't go there ;) No specific prices. And you can check out the retailers your selves. I found out pricing via at least one Canadian retailer, and it was ... well, meh.. Could be worse, but compared to my usual route of importing, it still seems quite high. I guess I will wait and see. I see Pearl and Mitsubishi on eBay for cheap, but that's not my prefered route of PJ buying :p

The official Japanese site said it's delayed to mid Nov.

http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/index_b.html

looks like everything is scheduled to release around 18 Nov :cool: (PS3, new BluRay player, HD-E1, etc)

Hello, back from taking a look at HC5000. Had just a couple of hours together with it, which included setup of pj and hd-dvd player. It looks very promising, very good optics and a stellar video-chip (Reon-VX). Out of the the color-temperature was almost dead-on (6600K). Hadnt to much time to experiment with the Iris, so I left it in Auto2 (it had Auto1, Auto2 and Auto3). It has a very good depth and dynamic picture, with good black-level and very detailed and sharp-looking picture.

I will take a further look at it tomorrow. It will be shown at electronic-show here in Norway this week, so expect more consumer-feedback on it. It is shown in a light.controlled room. The screen is grey, which I dont like it, a whithe screen would be better.

I have just seen the 'Pearl' and I thought the HC5000 looked much more promising, especially considering the Reon-VX chip, but this may just be my personal-taste, so yo-all check it out for yourself, and dont take my word for it.

I have just seen the 'Pearl' and I thought the HC5000 looked much more promising...

The official Japanese site said it's delayed to mid Nov.


Arrrghhh!

Arrrghhh indeed. Very glad I bought my AE900 stop-gap now...

Hello, back from taking a look at HC5000. Had just a couple of hours together with it, which included setup of pj and hd-dvd player. It looks very promising, very good optics and a stellar video-chip (Reon-VX). Out of the the color-temperature was almost dead-on (6600K). Hadnt to much time to experiment with the Iris, so I left it in Auto2 (it had Auto1, Auto2 and Auto3). It has a very good depth and dynamic picture, with good black-level and very detailed and sharp-looking picture.

I will take a further look at it tomorrow. It will be shown at electronic-show here in Norway this week, so expect more consumer-feedback on it. It is shown in a light.controlled room. The screen is grey, which I dont like it, a whithe screen would be better.

I have just seen the 'Pearl' and I thought the HC5000 looked much more promising, especially considering the Reon-VX chip, but this may just be my personal-taste, so yo-all check it out for yourself, and dont take my word for it.


Thank you very much for sharing, Per!

Please comment about panel noise with the HC5000 - I heard alot of people complaining about that after seeing this projector during the IFA - especially compared to the very "clean" look of SXRD and the new 1080p DLPs.

How would you rate (perceived) image sharpness against a good 720p/1080p 1-chip DLP?

Art ("presenter" on AVS) of projectorreviews.com has received a unit but the review is not likely to be posted "before 10/19 or 10/20".

http://www.projectorreviews.com/projectornews/MitsubishiHC5000BL_10092006.asp

It's too bad Art couldn't get all these projectors (Panny, Mitsu, Sony 1080p) at the same time. It would be informative to determine benefits and detriments of all three at the same time. As it is, he'll be working from memory for any comparisons, which isn't ideal.

I asked cine4home via email and they responded that they will be testing the Mitsubishi soon...



We had another pre-production sample here last week. This one was with a 90% finished adaptive iris.

:-)

Regards,
Ekkehart

Ekkehart,
When will you be reviewing the production HC5000 with the finalized dynamic iris? Also, can you be sure to check the maximum lumens at D65 with the projector set for maximum zoom (positioned as close as possible to the screen).

Ekkehart

Can we expect a posting of your findings from the past week on your website?

I've been keeping my handing german to english dictionary by my computer for such an event :)

We had another pre-production sample here last week. This one was with a 90% finished adaptive iris.

:-)

Regards,
Ekkehart

Ekkehart,

any preview comments/thoughts you care to share with us?

Thanks und liebe Grüsse

Yeah...looking forward to the cine4home review of the HC5000!

I hope:

1) The panel noise is down on the Mitsubishi vs the D5 pj's
2) There is good colour uniformity and/or adjustments to tame non-uniformity
3) no vb or other older lcd probs
4) Blacks and contrast are a great deal better than the D5 lcd pj's
5) The Mitsubishi is tunable and calibrates well
6) It has a good dust filter and the dust filter is easy to clean

I like that the fact that the bulb isn't super high wattage, and therefore, it uses less power, creates less heat, and also appears to have good potential for long life. I also like the fact that it sports both DVI and HDMI inputs. Technically you could consider them both essentially similar digi inputs, or maybe owners will prefer one over the other. At least you have the choice. Too bad its being delayed further. That could mean a longer wait before the price drops down from the initial release pricing.

The delay is sad but I'd rather them take the extra time to make sure the DI is up to snuff.

The delay is sad but I'd rather them take the extra time to make sure the DI is up to snuff.


A popular exporter site says the Mit is shipping tomorrow.

The units are shipping by months end according to my Mitsubishi rep. Just an FYI.

The units are shipping by months end according to my Mitsubishi rep. Just an FYI.

Jason, so you didn't get your expected shipment of late last week? Today was supposed to be the introduction date in Japan anyway. I guess they weren't able to stick to that either. Bum deal.

Nope. They were, well, overanxious in their estimate. Some bad information got passed down to my rep and thus to me. :( Oh well, hopefully I will indeed have them by the end of the month as planned.

I've been waiting to replace my HT for a few years whats another month. I think I will buy this site unseen.

The units are shipping by months end according to my Mitsubishi rep. Just an FYI.Week 43 is also the time a Finnish importer should get their first batch, so I'm really hoping this holds.

It's nice to see that Mitsubishi seems to have enough units to spare also for us in smaller coutries. It's probably Christmas until we get Pearls in here, such as with Ruby last year.

I have found a review on a french site. I didn't have the time yet to translate it but it seems to be a sample model that has been reviewed. There are a lot of screenshots from the projector and the menu and there are also calibration results!

http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29831360

Thanks for the link, interesting stuff!

Here's a link to the translated (~well!) French review, via Google Translate:

Page 1:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homecinema-fr.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D29831360&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Just hit "Page 2 (following)" at the bottom right to keep on reading...

I infer that the dynamic iris also was not engaged on this (preproduction) model, either...or at least not fully implemented, although the reviewer apparently is not worried that the final shipping version will be less than terrific, regarding black level...

WOW, convergence looks good (one pixel's worth of blue fringe, vertically to the left)...um...among other things! Reds look very nice, detail is superb...from what one can tell translated through a camera (still, a nice job with the screenshots). The reviewer only had an hour or so with it...so little time to tweak it and evaluate it. Looks quite promsing! The respondents on the forum are clamoring for a Ruby/5000 shootout...go figure! :)

Will

The official Japanese site said it's delayed to mid Nov.

http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/index_b.html

looks like everything is scheduled to release around 18 Nov :cool: (PS3, new BluRay player, HD-E1, etc)


I exchanged emails with the infamous japanese exporter today. They said the HC5000 would be released in Japan between Nov 13-15th. I'm sure the 18th date is probably more likely. However, they said the revised date is iffy. They also went on to say product would be thin in the Japan market for several weeks after its release due to demand and thin supply. Price point looks great by the way.

WOW, convergence looks good (one pixel's worth of blue fringe, vertically to the left)I'd infer the opposite. One whole pixel of misconvergence is simply unacceptable to me. I may have to wait for a while until production tolerances are tighter...

Are there any front projectors with perfect convergence? (And I'm asking because I don't know.)

I'd infer the opposite. One whole pixel of misconvergence is simply unacceptable to me. I may have to wait for a while until production tolerances are tighter...

Agreed, at this price, convergence shouldn't be an issue.

Are there any front projectors with perfect convergence? (And I'm asking because I don't know.)

I think some of the 3 panels (JVC?) have digital convergence fixing, which limits convergence offset to 0.5 pixels in the worst case. There are commercial projectors with physical panel alignment, but that's clearly not going to happen in this price range anytime soon. Finally, DLP one panels are a trivial case of perfect alignment.

Since I use a HTPC as a primary source, I'm looking into HTPC driven digital convergence fixing - it's not difficult to do conceptually using a software filter on a HTPC. If one doesn't exist I may have to write one. Of course this wouldnt help those not planning on going the HTPC route.

I too was a stickler for "perfect convergence" until I saw what the effect of 1-pixel misconvergence is like in real life viewing conditions. On my Pearl, convergence is perfect in the upper left quadrant of the screen. The worst part of the screen is the lower right, where red, blue and green are separated by one pixel each. And the rest of the screen is somewhere inbetween.

The effect of this is totally invisible from a distance of 1.3xScreen-Width. As you step back from the screen, your eye converges the panels for you. I have no doubt that there is some loss in sharpness as a result of this, but it's nothing that I can discern clearly with my naked eye, and I have tried. Anyone who hasn't experienced the auto-convergence feature built into their eyes really should check it out -- it's a pretty neat effect to experience, even if it is elementary.

As I mentioned in another thread, I've even tried comparing objects in the perfectly converged portion of the screen with objects elsewhere, and I just cannot make out a clear difference from normal viewing distances.

The only evidence of misconvergence visible from normal viewing distances is a very faint (VERY faint) red outline on rolling credits.

And before anyone asks, my corrected eyesight (yes, I wear glasses) is 20/20.

"Are there any front projectors with perfect convergence?"

There's no such thing as "perfect" in engineering and mfg, either for products or measuring devices.

There's only "good enough", a hard reality for perfectionists.

gremmy,

Thanks for the post, that puts a comforting real-world perspective on the issue.

"Are there any front projectors with perfect convergence?"

There's no such thing as "perfect" in engineering and mfg, either for products or measuring devices.

There's only "good enough", a hard reality for perfectionists.

gremmy,

Thanks for the post, that puts a comforting real-world perspective on the issue.

I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or take away anyone's right to express their viewpoint regarding convergence, but I think maybe some people forget that even directView CRTs suffer from misconvergence, and sometimes it is much worse than what is being reported on these LCD and LCOS projectors. I have a Trinitron in my basement that has a wicked case of misconvergence in one corner (+/- 3 pixels and more in some places), but I do understand that the larger screen of Front Projection makes the problem more obvious and therefore more problematic.

Before seeing the effect of 1 pixel misconvergence on my Pearl with my own eyes, I would have sworn off such a thing as video projection heresy.

For those who have indeed seen the effect and found it troubling, I respect that. But for those who haven't, I strongly encourage a personal audition before deciding that perfect convergence is an absolute necessity, since this requirement drastically limits one's options.

Before seeing the effect of 1 pixel misconvergence on my Pearl with my own eyes, I would have sworn off such a thing as video projection heresy.

For those who have indeed seen the effect and found it troubling, I respect that. But for those who haven't, I strongly encourage a personal audition before deciding that perfect convergence is an absolute necessity, since this requirement drastically limits one's options.

I've personally never seen misconvergence of any kind. Like you, it may be a non-issue for me, but it is one of those things that is just a mental annoyance. Unlike some (or maybe even most) here, purchasing a projector of this price is a big undertaking. It'd be akin to going out and purchasing a brand-new BMW M3 and having a barely perceptible rattle develop within the first 3,000 miles. You may not be able to hear it under normal driving, but yet you still know it is there.

It'd be akin to going out and purchasing a brand-new BMW M3 and having a barely perceptible rattle develop within the first 3,000 miles. You may not be able to hear it under normal driving, but yet you still know it is there.

I suggest you not purchase a BMW. :D

Seriously though, my question for you is whether or not you would have ever noticed the rattle if you hadn't been spending hours browsing the Luxury Cars forum and reading all the posts.

Again, I'm not trying to minimize convergence issues for those who are truly distracted at normal viewing distances (either because of very bad convergence or keen eyesight), I'm just saying that at some point we picky A/V guys are forced to pick our poison. There is no perfect projector, so we have to decide what problems are most bothersome to us under our normal viewing conditions.

In other words, check it out for yourself. That's all I'm saying. You might find that there are 100 other projector artifacts and/or defects (like RBE, dithering, high-frequency roll-off, color discontinuity, crushed blacks, panel noise, etc.) that bother you more than 1 pixel misconvergence. This will help you pick the projector that is truly right for you based on your own tolerance, not based on someone else's post.

I agree with gremmy and Noah (no big surprise, as my comment on the "good" convergence apparently generated this little sub-topic):

There is no such thing as "perfect," guaranteed convergence with multiple-chip devices (and even DLPs can have lens/prism issues that affect chromatic aberration), at realistic pricepoints; the engineering and QC would be astronomically expensive. The manufacturing tolerances, especially at 1920 X 1080--remember, you're talking about more than double the pixel count from 1280 X 720) are simply too tight at competitive pricepoints. No way they can afford to throw out, say, 2/3 of the optical blocks!

From what I've read about forum members' experiences, Sony now has spec'd the Ruby's permissible quality tolerances as +/- 2 pixels (although I think they started out at +/- 1 at their repair facility, when the Ruby first came out...+/- 2 seems a little high). Surely, the Pearl will be no better in terms of spec'd "within the norms" repair tolerances (although hopefully better at de facto tolerances--they should be tightening their processes continuously...CPI and TQM and all that).

To have only one color one pixel off in only one dimension (especially blue), I find quite acceptible. (And, we don't know whether the convergence WAS perfect, elsewhere on the screen...perhaps they were concentrating on worst-case!)

Lastly, notice I originally said "good" convergence, not perfect... :)

My 4 cents...


Will

Could someone tell me how exactly to check for misconvergence? Also how do you know if it is 1 pixel off, 1.5 pixels off, etc...Is there some sort of pattern on the Avia disc and then do you measure it some how? I have no experience in this obvioulsly :o and would appreciate some help.

Sure, there are test patterns on the various test discs, and many projectors have internal patterns, too. If you look at the french review's screen shots, you can tell in some of the extreme closeups, where the pixels clearly are visible on the test patterns, that there is a one-pixel-wide blue line, along the vertical axis--exactly one pixel off (i.e. exactly adjacent to the white line)...this should be "converged" to make the white line, but is off by a pixel...sometimes you will see just a hint of fringing, not quite a whole pixel off (yep, this would be a half-pixsel off, or thereabouts). You just judge it by eye. Note, however, that this will NOT be noticible at anything resembling normal viewing distances, as others have stated above!

Test patterns can show convergence at multiple points on the screen, barrel/ pincushion distortion, and lots of other things...it'll bring out the anal-retentive "tweak" inya, careful! :D

Seriously: don't sweat the small stuff! :)

So if it is one pixel off, it will be the same width as the white line just a different color such as blue and right next to the white line, and if it is .5 pixel off it will be approx .5 the width of the white line, etc....?

Thanks for the info ;)

I depends on the width of the white line.

If you'll look on the French site, as I mentioned, all will be obvious.

I suggest you not purchase a BMW. :D

Seriously though, my question for you is whether or not you would have ever noticed the rattle if you hadn't been spending hours browsing the Luxury Cars forum and reading all the posts.

Again, I'm not trying to minimize convergence issues for those who are truly distracted at normal viewing distances (either because of very bad convergence or keen eyesight), I'm just saying that at some point we picky A/V guys are forced to pick our poison. There is no perfect projector, so we have to decide what problems are most bothersome to us under our normal viewing conditions.

In other words, check it out for yourself. That's all I'm saying. You might find that there are 100 other projector artifacts and/or defects (like RBE, dithering, high-frequency roll-off, color discontinuity, crushed blacks, panel noise, etc.) that bother you more than 1 pixel misconvergence. This will help you pick the projector that is truly right for you based on your own tolerance, not based on someone else's post.

Well, if it'll help you sleep at night, I drive a Ford Escort. Once upon a time it was Mustangs, and I'm not sure I could ever bring myself to own a BMW, it just isn't my style.

Like I said, I probably will never see misconvergence. Same as I probably will never be bothered by RBE. It's not that actual problem that bothers me, it is that ever so slight fraction of a percentage that tells me that the PJ that I just dropped a buttload of money on may have an issue. Would it be any less annoying if the PJ was MSRP'ed at $499? No, but at nearly 10 times the cost it tends to "zing" a bit more.

I'm just speculating on silicon dust anyway, this PJ is vaporware as far as I am concerned until I can place an order and have one in my home in the next day or two after that.

I agree that a 1 pixel convergence (especially for only 1 color such as red, in 1 direction) is not bad at all, even at 720p and even less so at 1080p from many viewing distances.
People have been posting screenshots of 3 and 4 pixel misconvergences in multiple colors in both H and V directions, and that would be noticeable, at least to me. One of the reasons people are getting 1080p is to be able to sit closer to the screen, and with LCOS (Pearl) and other low screendoor pjs you're tempted to sit very close to the screen because of the smoothness, and multi-pixel misconvergences are noticeable in some situations.

I would agree with the general consensus that 1 pixel is hardly noticeable under most conditions and not worth worrying about. In fact I'd only measure and test for misconvergence if I could see it under normal viewing. Otherwise, I don't want to know :)

Depends on tolerances. I had a TX 200 that had what I thought was bad convergence, and it was green pixels out 1 pixel to the left and red pixels out 1 pixel to the right. This was extreme because in reality, the green and red pixels end up being 2 pixels away from one another and movies were noticabley very soft. I warranteed the TX200 and thankfully my replacement was very very good. Within 0.5 pixels over most of the screen, maybe a pixel at the edges. The images are noticabley sharper now. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we will see good sharpness/convergence with the Mitsubishi :)

Depends on tolerances. I had a TX 200 that had what I thought was bad convergence, and it was green pixels out 1 pixel to the left and red pixels out 1 pixel to the right. This was extreme and although you couldn't see anything severely bad during movies, they were noticabley soft. I warranteed the TX200 and thankfully my replacement was very very good. Within 0.5 pixels over most of the screen, maybe a pixel at the edges. The images are noticabley sharper now. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we will see good sharpness/convergence with the Mitsubishi :)


Hear, hear!!! :)


Edit: BTW, the reason I mentioned that it was perhaps prefereable having the blue out of convergence, rather than red or green (or, both :( ) was that it probably would not impact the perceived sharpness as much)...

Ok, saw the Mit last night. I like it!

Source:
- Marantz 7600 DVD player SDI out, 480i
- Mediabox (HD media player playing 1080i transport stream clip) HDMI out, 1080i
- Crystalio II video processor HDMI out, 1080p60

DVI Input is used on the Mit. I've been told the HDMI Input give the same picture. Screen is a Stewart StudioTek 1.3 gain 92" diag. Projector placement is around 11' away on a coffee table. The room has total light control. The picture is bright but not too bright. I hope it can work on bigger screen as my target setup will be quite a bit larger.

I use a new video memory on the Mit and reset all control to default. Mit. Sharpness at 0 (-10 to +10). Lamp at Standard (high). The Mit match very well with the video chain. Only minor brightness/contrast/color adjust on the video processor is needed. We tested a few scenes and settle on Auto Iris mode 2.

At first I thought the picture is not in 108p 1:1 mapping mode. The 1 pixel on/off vertical line pattern has a heavy "blue" tint and the horizontal on/off pattern has a "green" tint!Then I found the problem is caused by panel mis-convergence. Though the convergence error is not noticable from normal viewing distance.

The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast. Though better than the last year 720p LCD models, is still can't match the Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP I saw few days ago. Anyway, it's good enough for me compared to my 2 years old LCD projector!

After a few clips of DVD, we switch to HDTV viewing. WOW! The color is GREAT! The resolution is GREAT! Excellent picture dynamic! Tons of WOW factor! I can't stop playing more HD clips!

Before we finished someone suggest compare to a Mit HC3100 (1280x768) DLP mounted on the ceiling. The first thing I saw is SCREENDOOR! It was a huge difference compare to the 1080p! Viewing the same 1080i HD clips (also drive by the Crystalio II video processor now in 720p output), the resolution disappear a lot. It's kind of like comparing SD to HD! Not to mention the weak and dull color on the DLP! There is NO comparison at all!

The Mit 1080p has NO traditional LCD "vertical banding" artifact on all 3 panels. The image is totally smooth. There is still some minor color uniformity in low IRE field but not really noticable in normal viewing.

The bad news is the product release date is delay it seems. My dealer think it may be as late as early Dec. In the meanwhile I'll try to have a good look of the Sony Preal.

regards,

Li On

Nice report Li On, thanks! Keep the impressions coming :)

Ok, saw the Mit last night. I like it!

I use a new video memory on the Mit and reset all control to default.


Hey Li On, as far as the video memory settings, do they keep the zoom and/or lens shift information? i.e. could you have memory 1 set to full zoom and memory 2 set to no zoom? I doubt the memory settings save this information but that would make a constant height setup super easy.

The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast. Though better than the last year 720p LCD models, is still can't match the Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP I saw few days ago.
Li On
Concerning what? ANSI contrast?

LI ON - lots of us have been debating how much better the new LCD panels are. When you look at the image of the 5000 is it still obvious to you that you're looking at an LCD image?

When you mention the Marantz being obviously better is it because of the traditional improvement of DLP over LCD or are there other factors? I was looking to get away from LCD on my next projector, but was wondering how really improved it is these days. Two artifact in particular I can't stand are LCD Haze in mixed brightness scenes and the dirty panel look (my Sony doesn't have VB).

I too was a stickler for "perfect convergence" until I saw what the effect of 1-pixel misconvergence is like in real life viewing conditions. On my Pearl, convergence is perfect in the upper left quadrant of the screen. The worst part of the screen is the lower right, where red, blue and green are separated by one pixel each. And the rest of the screen is somewhere inbetween.

The effect of this is totally invisible from a distance of 1.3xScreen-Width. As you step back from the screen, your eye converges the panels for you. I have no doubt that there is some loss in sharpness as a result of this, but it's nothing that I can discern clearly with my naked eye, and I have tried. Anyone who hasn't experienced the auto-convergence feature built into their eyes really should check it out -- it's a pretty neat effect to experience, even if it is elementary.

The only evidence of misconvergence visible from normal viewing distances is a very faint (VERY faint) red outline on rolling credits.

And before anyone asks, my corrected eyesight (yes, I wear glasses) is 20/20.
Try displaying AVS forum with any projector set to 1920*1080p and see if you can tell the difference. Rather than some new dubious claim of "eye auto-convergence" all I get is a headache:)

In other words you guys are going off on a tangent because you have not seen better. Close to perfect convergence is a major reason why the 1080p Marantz DLP is superior.

Depends on tolerances. I had a TX 200 that had what I thought was bad convergence, and it was green pixels out 1 pixel to the left and red pixels out 1 pixel to the right. This was extreme because in reality, the green and red pixels end up being 2 pixels away from one another and movies were noticabley very soft. I warranteed the TX200 and thankfully my replacement was very very good. Within 0.5 pixels over most of the screen, maybe a pixel at the edges. The images are noticabley sharper now. Whatever the case may be, hopefully we will see good sharpness/convergence with the Mitsubishi :)
Good post.
Here is what excellent convergence in a quality product looks like:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8634891&&#post8634891

Scroll down a bit to the white checkered pattern.

In other words you guys are going off on a tangent because you have not seen better.

I just suggested that people look at it for themselves. And I have seen better, thank you.

Good post.
Here is what excellent convergence in a quality product looks like:

Scroll down a bit to the white checkered pattern.

:confused:

Sorry, but the Sharp xv-z20000 (in europa z21000) is a single-chip dlp. Ther will never be a convergence. :D

Concerning what? ANSI contrast?

Mostly ANSI contrast (mixed scene). The On/Off feels very close (Marantz in open iris, Mit in Auto iris 2) with the Marantz has a little edge on black level.

I mentioned the Marantz as I just saw it a few days ago. And because there is something very SPECIAL about the projector. Check my post in the Marantz thread.

Anyway, I like the powerful color rendering on the Mit though.

The Mit still gives a typical LCD projector characters IMO, though without MOST of LCD typical artifacts in the past generations. No vertical banding or panel noise and almost no color uniformity. The picture is very SOLID, meaning not as super smooth as a LCOS/SXRD, or means feel sharper than LCOS/SXRD. The color is very punch and saturated, unless the more "laid-back" tone from a 1-chip DLP. And the mixed scene (ANSI contrast) is still no match to a latest 1-chip DLP, though it's quite good already.

Overall, the picture sure feel like a LCD, though a excellent presentation without any major issue.

Btw, today I tried a Marantz 9600 DVD player for 480i/576i HDMI to the Mit to test it's HQV deinterlacing performance. But the picture has a heavy pixelization look as if there is a mis-match locking on the source. I hope the issue will be resolved in the final product.

regards,

Li On

huh, I was hoping that the Mits had that "film look" that the Pearl gives. It's just that the pearl isn't bright enough for me because I'm going for a bigger screen. I guess by the time I'm ready to buy (in a few months) I should have a better idea of what I'm getting into. Li On, whats your impression on the Pearl? I saw it on a stewart firehawk and thought that is was a little dull. IMO I think you need a studiotek 130 or another white material with a higher gain, especailly on bigger screens.

Lion, can you tell us anything about detail in dark scenes?

Try displaying AVS forum with any projector set to 1920*1080p and see if you can tell the difference. Rather than some new dubious claim of "eye auto-convergence" all I get is a headache:)

In other words you guys are going off on a tangent because you have not seen better. Close to perfect convergence is a major reason why the 1080p Marantz DLP is superior.

And not operating at anywhere near the pricepoint that we're talking about.

Overall, the picture sure feel like a LCD, though a excellent presentation without any major issue.


That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.

That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.

I expected similar results from the LCD. That is disappointing though, but for those people who are used to LCD it probably is a deal that cannot be beat.

The Pearl is not that dim, but what are your other options? 1080p DLP's are dimmer than the Pearl with the exception of the H81. So you either need to accept your budget, spend more for the H81, or sit out on the sidelines.

I suggest trying to make the Pearl or H81 (if it can fit your room) work. Good luck!

huh, I was hoping that the Mits had that "film look" that the Pearl gives. It's just that the pearl isn't bright enough for me because I'm going for a bigger screen. I guess by the time I'm ready to buy (in a few months) I should have a better idea of what I'm getting into. Li On, whats your impression on the Pearl? I saw it on a stewart firehawk and thought that is was a little dull. IMO I think you need a studiotek 130 or another white material with a higher gain, especailly on bigger screens.

I am using the Pearl on a 96" Firehawk and it is plenty. It should work well up to 106" and after that it depends on what your expectations are. The Firehawk is not the best screen to use with the Pearl if you are going >120".

That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.

I'd take one persons' opinion with a grain of salt. Based on the cumulative reviews of pre-production units that I've read so far the Mits certainly is going to be closer to DLP / SXRD performance than any other LCD to date.
Li On is the only one so far to report a "typical LCD" look, but I am more concerned with his description of the 480i conversion via HDMI, I would have thought this should be flawless. I'd like to read some follow up on that.

And like Andrew P suggests if you're coming from an LCD already the difference should be significant, and might not leave you wanting...

That's a bit disappointing but what I expected. I really wanted to step up from LCD this time around, but like others I'm backing away from the dimmness of the Pearl - and the Optoma's out of my price range. Looks like some compromises ahead for me.

After years of reading Li-On's opinion on various projectors I would be very excited about his comments. The fact that he started his post with the words "I like it!" says a lot about this projector. Add to that his numerous comments such as "The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast." plus "...After a few clips of DVD, we switch to HDTV viewing. WOW! The color is GREAT! The resolution is GREAT! Excellent picture dynamic! Tons of WOW factor! I can't stop playing more HD clips!"

The opinion that it can't match the Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP comes as no surprise. We are comparing a $20K DLP projector with a $4.5K one. The Mitsubishi has been sighted in Japan for less than $3K street.

I have seen a pre-production sample with a 90% (according to mitsu) working Iris, and I wouldn't say it looks like a typical LCD..... The colours looks excellent. Absolute blacklevel is also good, but it lacks details. The iris is in my opinion not good enough in any of the auto modes. One can easily se the stepping. I'm really hoping the production unit will have a smooth-moving iris, not stepping.

After years of reading Li-On's opinion on various projectors I would be very excited about his comments. The fact that he started his post with the words "I like it!" says a lot about this projector. Add to that his numerous comments such as "The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast." plus "...After a few clips of DVD, we switch to HDTV viewing. WOW! The color is GREAT! The resolution is GREAT! Excellent picture dynamic! Tons of WOW factor! I can't stop playing more HD clips!"

The opinion that it can't match the Marantz 11S1 1080p DLP comes as no surprise. We are comparing a $20K DLP projector with a $4.5K one. The Mitsubishi has been sighted in Japan for less than $3K street.

I agree. One of the reasons (and there are many) that I long have appreciated Li On's balanced reviews is that he does NOT engage in hyperbole. He tells it as it is. If it is "good" then it IS good. If he uses the word "WOW!," then...WOW!

I appreciate folks who speak exactly what they mean; it makes for the easiest communication and understanding. That being said, I very much am looking forward to seeing this PJ. :)

Li On's reviews and feedback are useful. Read what he says and don't let one comment overshadow the overall message. He is just being honest in my view, but I cannot say how accurate his comments of the Mits are. What he says sounds pretty realistic so far. Don't expect it to not look like an LCD projector. I don't mind the overall look and feel of lcd projector images. If it looks like an LCD projector, but has better blacks, better contrast, no vertical banding, good colour uniformity and good colour, then what the heck? That sounds good to me. I believe he also mentioned that the Mitsubishi has much less panel noise. I mean, its all right here:

The Mit still gives a typical LCD projector characters IMO, though without MOST of LCD typical artifacts in the past generations. No vertical banding or panel noise and almost no color uniformity. The picture is very SOLID, meaning not as super smooth as a LCOS/SXRD, or means feel sharper than LCOS/SXRD. The color is very punch and saturated, unless the more "laid-back" tone from a 1-chip DLP. And the mixed scene (ANSI contrast) is still no match to a latest 1-chip DLP, though it's quite good already.

Overall, the picture sure feel like a LCD, though a excellent presentation without any major issue.

Bolds are mine to stress the more important parts of his message, in my view.

Sounds good to me. I really want to see this puppy in action along with the Sony Pearl!

The picture is GREAT, especially with high quality HD source. The punch and yet accurate color rendering simply kills the "typical" 1-chip DLP color from the Marantz 11S1. I even offer the Mit rep to buy the unit on spot but were rejected as the sample is not for sell!

All being equal, color rendering is the most important factor IMO as a better color reproduction really give more "life" to a image. On/Off and ANSI contrast is very important too but color come first.

Another point is the (lack of) screendoor effect. Up close 6 inchs from the screen, the screendoor indeed looks like a typical LCD structure with a clean grid around the pixel. But all screendoor effect totally disappear a few feets further. In fact the ceiling mounted Mit HC3100 (1280x768 1-chip DLP) gave way much screendoor effect in direct comparison on the same screen from viewing distance.

Also I'm not sure I should share this... I was told the panel in the demo unit is NOT yet the real C2Fine inorganic version. Mit rep said Epson is holding up the panel hence the release date delay. Though maybe these are just some mis-understanding!

Anyway, the Mit met my expectation though I'd love to be over impressed! :D

Last weekend I watched a great concert in 1080i HDTV on a friend's Sony G70. Now that's some GREAT contrast and color. Digital projection still has a long way to go to match ALL the great aspects of a great CRT projection.

regards,

Li On

wow looks good and not even final panel? awsome hoepfully di will be implemented well =)

Lion, are dark scenes and shadow detail handled well?

Sound interesting...Hmmm, the comment regarding the panels sounds weird, but your general comments do sound very promising. Let's hope Epson and/or Mitsubishi are going to really iron out the kinks :)

So how much better would you say the Mitsubishi looked overall vs the current crop of 720p D5 projectors? Better? Just a little better? Alot better? It's all about the upgrade comparison. Most of us 720p owners need to know how the Mitsubishi will compare :)

I just want that "film look" with brightness to spare....is that too much to ask:)

Black level and shadow detail are all good. Black level can be deduce from lumen and contrast ratio. Shadow detail is kind of depends on image tunning. The default "cinema" gamma gives good shadow detail with a very 3D image depth.

So how much better would you say the Mitsubishi looked overall vs the current crop of 720p D5 projectors?

Depends on which "generation" of those 720p LCDs! I skip the whole last year generation as they all look very "noisy" with all the other artifacts (VB, color uniformity etc).

I think... for those that think last generation 720p LCD already looks great, the new 1080p should look better, but the different may not be so much night and day. For those thinking last year models all suck (me!), this 1080p is a whole new game!

Sadly the price is also MUCH higher than last year 720p. Ok, so it's still the cheapest 1080p! :)

regards,

Li On

Thank you Li on your advice is always greatly appreciated.

hoepfully di will be implemented well =)

Iris settings are Open, Auto 1,2,3. Auto 1 seems very aggressive and the iris close down too "deep" and often hence noticable in some scene. Auto 2 sensitivity seems somewhere in the middle and the iris action is mostly not noticable in viewing. Auto 3 is the least sensible which seems only operate in the middle range of the full iris range. We setle on Auto 2 for the viewing.

regards,

Li On

Li On, have you seen the Pearl yet, and if so how do you feel it compares to the 5000 from what you have seen?

Li On,

"The punch and yet accurate color rendering simply kills the "typical" 1-chip DLP color from the Marantz 11S1...All being equal, color rendering is the most important factor IMO as a better color reproduction really give more "life" to a image."

Both of these impressions could be (but I hope not) due simply to the Mits being brighter; what do you think?

I think the overall brightness are quite close with Marantz in high lamp and open iris (F3.0), meaning the Mit is not really that bright. IMO the Mit color simply has more "pop" and feel with a heavier "texture", being a 3 chip unit. The Marantz has great color among 1-chip DLP but I still like the Mit's persentation better.

regards,

Li On

How do the blacks compare? Do you still feel like you are looking at a grey colour projected instead of black?

Ok, please stop asking black level, it's gray, ok? :D No bulb projector can do real black, they are all gray. Ok, ok, I think the black level is a bit higher than the Marantz 11S1 in high lamp open iris. Anyway, it's black (gray) enough for me.

regards,

Li On

I was told the panel in the demo unit is NOT yet the real C2Fine inorganic version. Mit rep said Epson is holding up the panel hence the release date delay.

I guess this explains why none of the 1080p LCD PJ's are available yet. :rolleyes: If this is true, it also renders most of the observations of the Mts (and others) that have been shared thus far moot. If the shipping panels will be different, it changes everything. Hopefully for the better, but it could go either way.

Regarding the D6 panels, I'm assuming that these are basically pre-production panels rather than non-inorganic (i.e. organic) panels.

All of the benefits of D6 seem to have been reported in pro-production models (blacks, contrast, no VB, less panel noise, etc.).

I do not believe that the HC5000 samples are using D5 instead of D6.. The sample model I saw had very good contrast, way beyond current 720P D5 based projectors.

I do not believe that the HC5000 samples are using D5 instead of D6.. The sample model I saw had very good contrast, way beyond current 720P D5 based projectors.

Yeah the panels are most likely beta testing units or protypes, like the PJ itself, it just wouldn't make sense not to have the D6 in the demos they released.

Well black levels are one of the bigger concerns. As long as it looks alot better than the current D5 projectors, then that tells us something.

so there is no manual iris setting on this mits?

After years of reading Li-On's opinion on various projectors I would be very excited about his comments. The fact that he started his post with the words "I like it!" says a lot about this projector. Add to that his numerous comments such as "The picture looks very solid and clean. Very good on/off contrast and decent ansi contrast." plus "...After a few clips of DVD, we switch to HDTV viewing. WOW! The color is GREAT! The resolution is GREAT! Excellent picture dynamic! Tons of WOW factor! I can't stop playing more HD clips!"



I certainly agree with this statement. I have never found Li On to be over the top
with his praise (except possibly for the AE 200).

I certainly agree with this statement. I have never found Li On to be over the top
with his praise (except possibly for the AE 200).

I guess you haven't been a member of this forum long enough to read his post on the AE100. :)

I think he knows his stuff but he can get very carried away sometime! I like reading his comments anyway! It gets me excited! :D



Bruno

I have seen a pre-production sample with a 90% (according to mitsu) working Iris, and I wouldn't say it looks like a typical LCD..... The colours looks excellent. Absolute blacklevel is also good, but it lacks details. The iris is in my opinion not good enough in any of the auto modes. One can easily se the stepping. I'm really hoping the production unit will have a smooth-moving iris, not stepping.

So you're saying that shadow detail wasn't great? That sounds VERY LCD like. Maybe the Iris would fix this, but I think most of it is probably just an inherent issue with LCD technology. Was the unit you saw utilizing the new LCD panels or using the older organic ones that Li On commented on?

Sounds like D6 doesn't do much for ANSI, which is why the absolute black is good, but the shadow detail is poor. Bummer. It's the ANSI contrast which really kills LCDs (washed out look). At least there's a decent improvement in on/off, though.

Projector reviews have just reviewed the Samsung 710 but there are a few comparison shots to the Mits 5000. Shadow detail is indeed lacking

projectorreviews also had this comment

"it was immediately noticeable that the PT-AE1000U produced a sharper image. At the same time black levels and shadow detail were definitely improved, and the overall images had more depth. "

Just using the ae1000u as reference since it uses d6 panels as well


also

"After a while, I switched over to my BenQ PE-8720, just to confirm. Sure enough, the blacks on the BenQ were blacker in the letterbox area, and in the dark scenes. The shadow detail, however definitely exceeded my PE-8720's. Later I did some side by sides with the new Mitsubishi HC5000BL a brand new 1080p LCD projector with a claimed 10,000:1 contrast ratio, (like the BenQ) and again, the Samsung SP-H710AE reviewed more details in the shadows."


so its not a lcd thing.


Couldnt you just elevate the blacks on any other projector and get the same results?

"Almost immediately I discovered something I wasn't happy with. In the letter box areas, the blacks were definitely not very black, rather typical of Darkchip2 DLP projectors. I'm used to the blacker blacks of my own Darkchip3 BenQ. "

projectorreviews also had this comment

"it was immediately noticeable that the PT-AE1000U produced a sharper image. At the same time black levels and shadow detail were definitely improved, and the overall images had more depth. "
On the last part, does he mean the image was sharper on the AE1000 over the Mits 5000, but black levels and shadow detail were better on the Mits, or on some other pj?

the comment was about the ae1000 compared to the 900. it was an observation about the technology thats why i posted it. not a comparision between ae1000 and mits.

You guys should really watch your interpretation of things.

In the Projector Review article, he didn't say the shadow detail of the Mits is "lacking" or "poor"; if the Samsung is one of the best that he's seen in that regard, the correct way to put it is the Samsung has a "slight" advantage.

In the summary he states the following;

"Depending on the image (bright or dark), the black levels (looking in the letterbox area) of the Mitsubishi are anywhere from slightly blacker, to dramatically blacker than the Samsung (see examples in the image quality section). Tthe Mitsubishi, like other projectors is more contrasty, losing a small amount of shadow detail that the SP-H710AE delivers. Highlight details were very close between the two with the Samsung having an only slightly detectable advantage in side by side comparison. The much smaller pixels of the Mitsubishi, and higher resolution definitely provide a sharper overall image, that will be favored by those with large screens, and those who like to sit close. Overall, the Mitsubishi HC5000BL is a projector that will perform better for those with a wide range of viewing content. Again, the Samsung is for the movie purist."

And let's not forget that we're talking about an "LCD" PJ being compared to what many say are probably two of the best sub $5K DLP's in terms of PQ.

I don't know. I looked at the comparison pictures, and to me the Samsung 710 had much better shadow detail. So much better that I'm considering the Samsung.

This actually got me excited for the 5000. Did you see how much better the black level was in the first comparison shot to the 710 :eek: The 710 is known to be a shadow detail beast, so the fact that the 5000 is not as good here is no surprise, and even the mighty 8720 was not as good as the 710 with shadow detail and seemed to be more in line with the 5000. I for one cant wait for the 5000 review now from projectorreviews! I love Art's reviews, and how he does comparisons to other units. I hope he does some good comparisons between the Pearl and 5000 when he gets the Pearl in!

I don't know. I looked at the comparison pictures, and to me the Samsung 710 had much better shadow detail. So much better that I'm considering the Samsung.
Well, if you like DLP, why even mess around with LCD?

but if you elevated the blacks to grey cant you increase shadow detail on any projector? maybe not as much as the 710 but wouldnt it be a better comparison if you elevated the blacks?

Its not like the 710 has a deep black and shadow detail.

I don't know. I looked at the comparison pictures, and to me the Samsung 710 had much better shadow detail. So much better that I'm considering the Samsung.

Good on you.
That's the whole idea afterall isn't it - please yourself.

But, I don't know how much stock you can take in screen shots viewed on your computer. (He did verbally say that the difference was "small" having seen the real screen.)

None the less, I find it very encouraging that he would consider the HC5000 to be a better "overall" projector. Which is certainly my intended use - I watch just about everything on mine - not just movies.

Well, if you like DLP, why even mess around with LCD?

Excellent point. I imagine the majority of the people interested in this machine are people coming from 720p LCD projectors or on a tight budget.

Once I saw DLP and LCOS I can honestly say LCD would have to really wow me with superior performance at a super low price for me to even think about going back (and that might not be enough.)

Remember, Comparison photo's aren't much use since you are viewing them on your own display!

and your display is more then likely lcd! =P

So you're saying that shadow detail wasn't great? That sounds VERY LCD like. Maybe the Iris would fix this, but I think most of it is probably just an inherent issue with LCD technology. Was the unit you saw utilizing the new LCD panels or using the older organic ones that Li On commented on?

The shadow detail wasn't great, unfortunately. Since the iris was less than 100% finished, it might have contributed to some sort of compression in the blacks...

The unit I saw was definately utilizing the new D6 panels...

but if you elevated the blacks to grey cant you increase shadow detail on any projector? maybe not as much as the 710 but wouldnt it be a better comparison if you elevated the blacks?

Its not like the 710 has a deep black and shadow detail.
Good point, it is my understanding that the 710 is tuned to have a super smooth grey scale ramp, which would sacrifice a bit of black level to make sure it doesn't crush low level detail.
-Matt

People have been discussing this, so here are clickable links to the shots being discussed.

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/5061/samsungsph710aevshc5000blacklevels1odesseyas3.th.jpg (http://img65.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsungsph710aevshc5000blacklevels1odesseyas3.j pg)

There is some low level image crush at whatever setting were used here, as you can see by looking at the shadow details:

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6136/samsungsph710aevshc5000theaterlargenx4.th.jpg (http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=samsungsph710aevshc5000theaterlargenx4.jpg)

I wouldnt take too much away from this, the final review will clarify the situation, but the gamma looks a little off here, which is the sort of thing that should be fixable through calibration.

Today or tomorrow the "Projector Reviews dot com" review may get posted if things go according to schedule. I expect it will be delayed, but we always live in hope :)

Today or tomorrow the "Projector Reviews dot com" review may get posted if things go according to schedule. I expect it will be delayed, but we always live in hope :)

I always look forward to Art's reviews and to me they are"on the money" pointing out strengths and weaknesses, however I am also looking forward to having this pj released and the teaming masses getting their paws on it so we can get some first hand "real world" opinions.

I have once again had to delay my dedicated basement HT :( so it will be a while before I'm in a position to buy a pj, but I think this has worked in my favor. I had the Epson 550 on my short list and now it has been replaced by the Mits. My only concern is brightness. I will be in the neighborhood of 106-110 inch screen with a totally light controlled room, but don't necessarily want to do all of my pj watching in a cave. I will be doing a lot of general TV type watching and would like to watch with some ambient light sometime so I am hoping that the Mits will be bright enough to do that.

Regards,

RTROSE

Tthe Mitsubishi, like other projectors is more contrasty, losing a small amount of shadow detail that the SP-H710AE delivers.

Since you can't have everything, I would be willing to give up a small amount of shadow detail to get greater contrast and better blacks.

Review from HDTVexpert.com: http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/hc5000.html

I run my H710 on a grey goo screen I made for an older projector - theZ3 which had poor black levels. The black levels on the 710 are quite nice this way and there is still excellent shadow detail. (however there is some color shift - as I imagine would happen on any grey screen) The images (links) posted above seem to show the 5000 really crushes the blacks. I think this is one of the few things that screen shots can show that are at all meaningful. Is the display device throwing away information at any end of the scale.

As long as my 710 actually continues to work, I think I'll have to wait (quite some time) for a reasonbly priced 1080P DLP alternative.

Review from HDTVexpert.com: http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/hc5000.html
Overall very positive, but I don't think any individual reviews are going to help this time around. It's all going to come down to side-by-side shootout comparisons between the Mits, Pearl, and Panasonic.

Overall very positive, but I don't think any individual reviews are going to help this time around. It's all going to come down to side-by-side shootout comparisons between the Mits, Pearl, and Panasonic.

This probably means that they will be more similar than different. Either way, any one of those models (and the upcoming Epson 1080p) will make most owners more than happy :)

The lumen output is dissapointing. I have a large low gain screen that requires a projector with substantial lumens. I will not be upgrading to a 1080P projector until there is one that can output 1000 lumens at D65 at <5K (single chip DLP need not apply).

The lumen output is dissapointing. I have a large low gain screen that requires a projector with substantial lumens. I will not be upgrading to a 1080P projector until there is one that can output 1000 lumens at D65 at <5K (single chip DLP need not apply).

I didn't even notice the lumens until you mentioned it. Then I went back and looked and found this :eek:


How about contrast and brightness? In CINEMA mode with the iris open, I measured 340 ANSI lumens. Contrast clocked in at 276:1 ANSI and 486: 1 peak, using the 16-box checkerboard pattern. Highest contrast readings using a small white window pattern with an adjacent black area were 1875:1, 1050:1, and 1880: 1 using AUTO IRIS 1, 2, AND 3 settings, respectively. Brightness uniformity across the 16:9 image averaged 73%.

With my grayscale settings, brightness reached as high as 400 ANSI lumens in SPORTS mode. That’s not a significant step up from CINEMA mode, but you will see a change in gamma and highlights start to wash out. The 340 lumens CINEMA reading is more than enough to produce a bright, contrasty image off my 82-inch Stewart matte screen with a projection throw of 14 feet.



My observations:

1) ANSI contrast looks very good.
2) Hard to comment on on/off contrast w/DI
3) Iris seems to be what you'd expect from a first gen. product -- unfortunately, you can see it working
4) Even with the iris open, calibrated lumens are very low. Unless I'm reading that wrong, it's only half as bright as the Pearl. Someone correct me if this is wrong. The Pearl measures in at 700-800 lumens when calibrated at min throw, max bulb. I didn't see any mention of the throw distance (or of whether or not it would matter with the HC5000's lens) in the HC5000 review, so I'm not sure we're comparing apples to apples. But regardless of the throw, this seems dim.

Review from HDTVexpert.com: http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/hc5000.html

Interesting review. Just exciting enough to keep my interest up while Mitsubishi get's their act together. Still, I'd like to know more about how this compares with DLP. One thing I love about DLP is the clean look that you don't seem to get with LCD. Maybe that's what they refer to as "dirty panel" look with LCD. My other big gripe is LCD haze in mixed brightness scenes. I wonder if the iris helps with this?

This hurry up and wait thing is killing me!

Evan Powell from projector central sure seems to like this projector:

"In addition to the superb image quality, the HC5000 has a number of other noteworthy attributes. Fan noise is extremely low. A 1.6x powered zoom and focus lens with extensive lens shift capability will make it easy to install in a wide variety of viewing spaces. Lamp life in low power mode is 5000 hours. And most remarkably, all of this is delivered for a price of just $4,495, which is the lowest price for 1080p resolution on the market today. We were expecting Mitsubishi to have cut some corners in getting 1080p to this price point, but we are having trouble finding anything to highlight as a fault or shortcoming."

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_news102006.htm

Wow - how about THIS preview from Projector Central: PJC review (http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_news102006.htm)

"In short, the Mitsubishi HC5000 is one of those dynamite, groundbreaking products that will elevate the already well-respected Mitsubishi brand to a new level in the world of home theater projectors. In our opinion it is without a doubt the best projector they've ever made. And not just because it is 1080p resolution. That is certainly its most obvious feature, but beyond its 1080p format Mitsubishi has pulled out all the stops on this one. Color is extremely accurate, and about as good as it gets in digital projectors. Deinterlacing of standard definition signals is virtually flawless--quite literally the best we've ever seen in any product under $10,000. And the picture has a beautifully natural quality to it, which is an elusive attribute that digital projectors continue to get better at but so often fall just a bit short of."

Gentlemen, start your engines. :cool:

400 lumens in calibrated high output mode? That's truly horrendous. Let's hope that Evan Powell's measurements aren't the same.

400 lumens in calibrated high output mode? That's truly horrendous. Let's hope that Evan Powell's measurements aren't the same.

I can't imagine him saying that he can't find fault with the projector if he found it all dim. Let's hope.

I can't imagine him saying that he can't find fault with the projector if he found it all dim. Let's hope.

My personal take is that 400 lumens can be enough if you have good contrast, and can look quite good in the right room. But I presume that this is 400 lumens on a new bulb. Once the bulb has aged, you're down in the realm of CRT brightness with nowhere near the CRT contrast or color accuracy. Let's hope these brightness measurements are an abnormality, a mistake, or a misunderstanding. Because if they're not, this is going to be one dim projector once the bulb has settled.

For reference, if we assume a 1.3 gain 110 inch screen and 400 lumens, we've got:

1) 14 ft. lamberts on day one
2) Somewhere between 7 and 10 ft. lamberts after 200 hours.

Considering that 23 ft. L is generally the goal for day one (due to color fidelity), with a floor of no lower than 12 (my arbitrary cut-off number based loosely on professional cinemas), this projector doesn't have the lumens to support a 110 inch screen unless you can go high gain.

On a 96 inch 1.3 gain screen we get:

1) 20.8 on day one (bright enough, in my opinion).
2) Somewhere between 10 and 15 after the bulb has aged (could be okay, but likely will lack pop.)

If these lumen figures are accurate, I wouldn't go any bigger than 96 inches, unlesss you can pair it with a high gain screen. I personally wouldn't go any bigger than 92. Just my two cents.

I got a good look at the HC5000 last night and I tend to agree with the superlatives. Image sharpness and color rendition are exceptional. I didn't measure the output, but from past experience, 400 lumens is probably pretty close. This is not a bright projector, especially in low lamp mode. Even with the high lamp setting and total light control, you're maxing out with a 110" screen, so it's not for everyone. Personally, I have good light control and a 92" screen, for which it would be perfect. Just wish I could see it alongside a Pearl. :D

I am curioius to hear more about shadow detail on this unit, and how it compares to the Pearl. Sounds like the Pearl should be better in this area, no?

I got a good look at the HC5000 last night and I tend to agree with the superlatives. Image sharpness and color rendition are exceptional. I didn't measure the output, but from past experience, 400 lumens is probably pretty close. This is not a bright projector, especially in low lamp mode. Even with the high lamp setting and total light control, you're maxing out with a 110" screen, so it's not for everyone. Personally, I have good light control and a 92" screen, for which it would be perfect. Just wish I could see it alongside a Pearl.

How's the DI?

Any comments on how the panel convergence looks?

I didn't measure the output, but from past experience, 400 lumens is probably pretty close.

I was hoping for a bit more lumens from this projector. This sounds like it will be on par (in regards to brightness) to my Optoma H77, which I think is a little dim.

I really want to step up to a brighter projector, so I think I will wait a little longer to see how the new Epson and Panosonic 1080p projectors do in the lumens department.

How do the lumens performance compare to the Hitachi TX200?

Here's a link to the translated (~well!) French review, via Google Translate:

Page 1:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.homecinema-fr.com%2Fforum%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ft%3D29831360&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

Just hit "Page 2 (following)" at the bottom right to keep on reading...

I infer that the dynamic iris also was not engaged on this (preproduction) model, either...or at least not fully implemented, although the reviewer apparently is not worried that the final shipping version will be less than terrific, regarding black level...

WOW, convergence looks good (one pixel's worth of blue fringe, vertically to the left)...um...among other things! Reds look very nice, detail is superb...from what one can tell translated through a camera (still, a nice job with the screenshots). The reviewer only had an hour or so with it...so little time to tweak it and evaluate it. Looks quite promsing! The respondents on the forum are clamoring for a Ruby/5000 shootout...go figure! :)

Will
He said it ain't as good as my Ruby.

Pearl vs HC5000.

Evan Powell from projector central sure seems to like this projector:

"In addition to the superb image quality, the HC5000 has a number of other noteworthy attributes. Fan noise is extremely low. A 1.6x powered zoom and focus lens with extensive lens shift capability will make it easy to install in a wide variety of viewing spaces. Lamp life in low power mode is 5000 hours. And most remarkably, all of this is delivered for a price of just $4,495, which is the lowest price for 1080p resolution on the market today. We were expecting Mitsubishi to have cut some corners in getting 1080p to this price point, but we are having trouble finding anything to highlight as a fault or shortcoming."

http://www.projectorcentral.com/projector_news102006.htm

I feel like he loves all LCD projectors... In fact, I cannot remember the last negative review of any projector although im sure there have been 1 or 2.

How's the DI?

Seems about the same as other projectors with DIs. You can trip it up with the right scene but most of the time it's unnoticeable, at least to me.

Any comments on how the panel convergence looks?

Looked very good in the sample, but who knows what the QC will be like on production models.

Regarding the lumen output, I would say it's about the same as my calibrated AE900 w/filter. It's truly a home theater projector, not for the family room.

is the 400 lumens calibrated for high or low lamp mode?

It seems to me one of the major selling points is the long lamp life which is only seen at low lamp mode. Drops to 2k hours at high doesnt it? so hopefully its at low lamp mode, 400 at low lamp isnt bad at all.


aslo for family rooms theres a high lumen output isnt there? sure its not calibrated but if your watching it with lots of ambient light what diference does that make?

If it really does have 400 lumens in high power mode, that eliminates this projector as an option for me, as it either means a small screen or high gain screen. (And, that's in HIGH power mode; in low power mode, it's unworkably dim.) I want a larger (106-110 inch), lower gain (audio transparent) screen. I guess it's back to the new Panny 100 720p, for a few years until they come out with some brighter 1080p projectors.

Well at least I now know how the Optoma HD81 is going to compete! It's got the higher price, no lens shift, a small zoom range and a ridiculously large lens offset, but it's bright - and that's something it seems no other reasonably priced 1080p projector can say! We'll have to see how the BenQ W10000, Panny AE-1000 and Epson TW1000 stack up, but all indications are that they won't be a heck of a lot brighter than the Pearl or HC5000. At least with the Pearl and HC5000 they are super duper quiet. So they may not put out all that much light, but you can put them right above your head and still not hear them! Yay.

Jon

Review from HDTVexpert.com: http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/hc5000.html


Now, am i (noobie PLV-Z3 owner)glad that i steadied my nerves and resisted the PlV-Z5 and Pearl tremors (i have horror stories on Sony service).

I will get one of these in Spring for $2500 i'm sure. Panny 1000 maibe, but their QC, although better than Sony's, still leaves some in the dust, as many have commented here.

Now, am i (noobie PLV-Z3 owner)glad that i steadied my nerves and resisted the PlV-Z5 and Pearl tremors (i have horror stories on Sony service).

I will get one of these in Spring for $2500 i'm sure. Panny 1000 maibe, but their QC, although better than Sony's, still leaves some in the dust, as many have commented here.

Nice review. To bad he didn't have an HD-DVD player to view some material through the Mits.

Does anybody know when this bad boy is shipping? :)

Glen

I've heard rumors of mid Nov.

tick tock tick tock

just waiting for some more reviews lol. Projectorreviews Projectorcentral and Cine4home come on already!

Only 400 lumens in sports mode? The AX100 is becoming more and more tempting every time measured lumens figures are released for each of the new 1080p's.

Thats why im waiting for some more reviews! 400 lumens low mode i can live with. 400 lumens high mode i will probably have to pass.

What would be a good amount of lumens to have for watching sports w/ a bit of light on?

What would be a good amount of lumens to have for watching sports w/ a bit of light on?

Depends on screen size and gain (at least).

also depends on what you find is acceptable lol.

some people light a lot more ftl then others.

it was mentioned there was a setting for high lumens. destroyed color accuracy but if your fighting ambient light might not mater much. need a more in depth review.

I haven't settled on size yet, but was thinking a Carada BW somewhere around 102-106in diag. Trying to determine if I can go with this unit or the Pearl... or if I should start looking at 720p DLPs again :-(

i think that would work fine with a pearl if you mount it close.

also if the mits isnt bright enough we still have the pany and epson to look foward too. i wouldnt give up just yet =)

Nice review. To bad he didn't have an HD-DVD player to view some material through the Mits.

The two HD DVDs (POTO and Serenity) I saw with the HC5000 looked great. Though still not up to the better DLPs, the black levels set a new standard for LCD.

Thats why im waiting for some more reviews! 400 lumens low mode i can live with. 400 lumens high mode i will probably have to pass.

My guess is that it was high lamp. That compares with an AE900 that I measured a little over 300 lumens in low lamp mode.

mikesrc

=( might have to hold out to see how panny and epson do regarding lumens.

Have you seen a ruby or pearl? if so how would you say it compares (disregarding lumens ofcourse)?

Thanks =)

Called PJPeople today. ETA mid November. Me want it, me need it, PLV-Z3 is getting boring but not enough to buy the misconverged, color variegated and edge spilling jewel namesake alternative available now :)

Still waiting for reviews from Projector review and cine4home to make the decision on the battle between the Pearl and the Mits. I've had the pearl in my thearter. Very impressive (espesually the shadow detail), but I personally love the LCD video look. Waiting to see what comes out of the Mits. So far looks promising.

....but I personally love the LCD video look. .......

Yeah me too, a lot of people overrate the "filmlike" look IMO.
I for one like the perceived sharpness LCD brings to the table. Remove the SDE and I'll be one happy camper.

Remove the SDE and I'll be one happy camper.

Only problem is, there is a relationship between the two. SDE is like adding high frequncy content (edge enhancement) to an image which is where the fine details (and sense of sharpness) reside. Many consider the "look" of video to be "sharper" than film. It is not. Frame capture rate is one reason for this as there is less motion blur. Another, I venture, is the fixed raster/pixel nature of video displays.

ted

So far, SDE dos'nt seem to be an issue. Check out this review.


http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/hc5000.html


"The Discovery shark footage also featured lots of deep blues from underwater shoots, plus subtle shades of pastel colors. All came through just fine. For Law and Order: SVU, I sat about six feet from the screen to see how much of the LCD pixel structure I’d notice (answer: basically, none)."

Have you seen a ruby or pearl? if so how would you say it compares (disregarding lumens ofcourse)?

Thanks =)

I've seen both, but in completely different environments than the HC5000. You'd really need to see them all side-by-side, calibrated and with the same source to really make a fair comparison. They all look good. I was interested in the Mits because of it's potential street price (based on the dealer price). Won't be long before we're talking about 1080p projectors in the other forum. :D

Regarding SDE, it's not an issue with the Mits unless you're talking about sitting very close to a very big screen.