http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/6248/hc5000if5.png

Panels: 3x 0.7" LCD (inorganic D6 C2Fine)
Resolution: 1920x1080
Brightness: 1,000 (standard) / 750 (low mode)
Contrast: 10,000 :1 (using dynamic iris)
Noise 19db
Lens: focal length: 24 - 38 mm; 17 glass elements; powered zoom, focus and lens shift
Lens shift: Vertical 75%, horizontal 5%

http://global.mitsubishielectric.com/bu/projectors/products/homeuse/images/hc5000_3.gif

http://global.mitsubishielectric.com/bu/projectors/products/homeuse/images/hc5000_4.gif

Video processing: Silicon Optix Reon-VX (http://www.siliconoptix.com/chipProducts/ReonVX.cfm?CFID=5631997&CFTOKEN=45a785d345a9a074-07D7E1DD-7E90-E2A3-B7DD1F7830340D87)

Video signals: NTSC / NTSC 4.43 / PAL (including PAL-M, N) / SECAM / PAL-60
480i/p(525i/p), 576i/p(625i/p), 720p(750p 50/60Hz), 1080i(1125i 50/60Hz),
1080p(1125p 24/50/60Hz), (1080i(1250i 50Hz) is not available); SCART (RGB + 1V sync)

Video inputs: 1 x HDMI (HDCP), 1 x DVI-D, component, D-Sub 15, S-Video, composite
Lamp life: 5,000 hours (eco mode)
Dimensions (w x h x d): 334 x 125 x 352 mm (approx. 13" x 5" x 14")
Weight: 5.6 kg (approx 11 lb)

List price in Europe: €3,990
Availability: October 2006

Images:

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4216/mitsubishihc5000girc3.jpg
European model in white (black reserved for the US)

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2136/mitsubishihc5000gi4jb2.jpg
Remote

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/1680/mitsubishihc5000gi2ld3.jpg
Control panel on top of projector

Official site (http://global.mitsubishielectric.com/bu/projectors/products/homeuse/hc5000/index_b.html)

Product sheet (http://www.mitsubishi-evs.de/download/produktinformation/200681640_hc5000_engl.pdf)

CEDIA press release:

MITSUBISHI ANNOUNCES 1080p PROJECTOR FEATURING REON-VX HQV VIDEO PROCESSING


San Jose, CA—(Sept. 13, 2006)—Mitsubishi Digital Electronics America, Inc. has raised the bar once again for price/performance with the introduction of their new HC5000BL 1080p projector, featuring the latest LCD technology and integrated Reon-VX HQV® video processing from Silicon Optix for $4495 (MSRP).

"After months of careful evaluation, we chose HQV processing for our new 1080p projector because it brings out amazing detail and clarity of high-definition (HD) material, from strands of hair to freckles on faces," said James Chan, director, product marketing, Mitsubishi Digital Electronics, America's Presentation Products Division. "For regular DVDs and standard-definition (SD) material, HQV processing does an incredible job of making SD material approach HD quality."

Mitsubishi's HC5000BL has integrated Reon-VX HQV processing, which provides true HQV four-field, motion-adaptive, per-pixel, HD deinterlacing to deliver the sharpest, most detailed HD images possible. The HQV multi-directional diagonal filter removes any "jaggies" and/or stair-step artifacts from deinterlaced video sources without blurring the image, while sophisticated HQV noise-reduction technology removes the noise and artifacts caused by compression.

The HC5000BL is designed with new inorganic LCD panels that are more durable and provide a more color-consistent, even-toned image than previous generation LCD panels. The LCD optical engine is enclosed to prevent dust from entering it, which decreases the number of particles landing on the LCD panels and keeps the image cleaner.
Using Mitsubishi's exclusive algorithms to control its dynamic iris, the HC5000BL also boasts one of the highest contrast ratios available today, achieving an unprecedented 10,000:1 for the most exacting features in dark areas of an images. These new algorithms detect and maximize color information as well as luminance, creating realistic detail in film noir and action flicks.

With up to 5000 hours of lamp-life (in Low mode), HC5000BL owners won't have to change lamps often. But when that's necessary, the new projector's design makes lamp replacement quick and easy. Through an easily accessed lamp housing, users simply switch lamps without having to take the mounting structure apart or physically handle the projector.

The HC5000BL provides HDMI and DVI connectors, allowing for a true digital-to-digital link between the projector and its image sources. Available in standard black or optional white, the 1000-ANSI-lumens projector offers powered lens shift and powered zoom for easy installation and setup, making it perfect for home theater environments.

"We are thrilled to be working with one of the true experts in projection," said Ney Christensen, VP of Sales, Silicon Optix. "Mitsubishi is breaking new ground in delivering 1080p projection along with HQV processing at this amazing price."

Price, Availability, Warranty
The suggested retail price of Mitsubishi's new HC5000BL is $4495. It will be available in October 2006 through authorized Mitsubishi dealers. The projector comes with Mitsubishi's two-year limited warranty on parts and labor, plus a 90-day warranty on the lamp.

For more information on HQV processing, please go to http://www.HQV.com.

I hope skogan and other mates from the hidef disc forums will get the 'probably' joke. ;)

It looks like my shoes box!

The conversion price brings it to around $5000. That may not be what they price it for in the U.S. though. We now know of a Mits and a Panny. Cedia should be interesting.

Ericglo

A small feature, but I do like the fact that it's got a DVI-D input. Far more sturdy than HDMI.

This looks very promissing! I really wish that they would publish a native non-IRIS enhanced CR too.

I think this will have to come in less than $4K street to sell state side...If this was C2Fine then we may be willing to pay more but as many have predicted I don't think we will see C2Fine until next year.

A small feature, but I do like the fact that it's got a DVI-D input. Far more sturdy than HDMI.If it doesn't take component digital video signals that are common to HDMI (YCbCr), but only RGB then I consider that a fairly big negative. Source devices seem to have a lot more issues going to DVI inputs with RGB than to HDMI inputs with YCbCr. The 5U D-Theater box clips BTB and WTW to DVI inputs and has never been fixed, the current HD DVD player has color conversion problems to standard DVI ports and not standard HDMI ports, and I believe the Samsung BluRay player clips to standard DVI and not to standard HDMI, for instance.

--Darin

"...If this was C2Fine then we may be willing to pay more but as many have predicted I don't think we will see C2Fine until next year. "

The other thread on this said this was using D6 panels. C2Fine (as I understand it) was based on D5. So maybe Epson is jumping over C2Fine and moving straight to D6?

Shawn

Kinda disappointing that it's not bright like the WD-2000. Does the prefix 'HC' signify something different than 'WD'?

PS I was hoping for a 1080p version of the WD2000.

EDIT: Ah, I didn't catch that this was an LCD rather than a DLP. Need to read the title of the thread more closely!

Does anyone market snap on pj covers like those they make for mobile phones?
Gosh that's ugly. :)

ted

If it doesn't take component digital video signals that are common to HDMI (YCbCr), but only RGB then I consider that a fairly big negative. Source devices seem to have a lot more issues going to DVI inputs with RGB than to HDMI inputs with YCbCr. The 5U D-Theater box clips BTB and WTW to DVI inputs and has never been fixed, the current HD DVD player has color conversion problems to standard DVI ports and not standard HDMI ports, and I believe the Samsung BluRay player clips to standard DVI and not to standard HDMI, for instance.
For those without an HDMI video processor, I wholeheartedly agree. The Broadcom chip(?) that clips the head and toe room should die a violent, fast death. However, we're stuck with it in several source units that are de rigeur for videophiles (being generous to the Samsung here). For those with an HDMI video processor, you actually get to be more worried about bypassing the projector's internal processor.

I personally prefer the ProjectionDesign idea of using the DVI form factor with HDMI electronics, but so far, few seem to be using that trick.

Later,
Bill

As Mitsubishi can now make a 3000 lumen single chip dlp projector with a 2000 to 1 contrast ratio, why can't they turn this new machine into a 3000 lumen LCD projector with a 5000 to 1 contrast ratio? 1000 lumens won't do it for me no matter how good the contrast.

Scotty, we need more power!

IB

Just to let you know, cine4home has posted a preview on the Mitsubishi HC5000.

It is written in german, but babelfish might help you there. ;)

cine4home HC5000 preview (http://www.cine4home.de/news/HC5000/HC5000news.htm)

Just to let you know, cine4home has posted a preview on the Mitsubishi HC5000.cine4home HC5000 preview (http://www.cine4home.de/news/HC5000/HC5000news.htm)

And they claim the unit will have D6 panels with C2Fine!

Thanks dstoe.

Also, powered focus, zoom and lens shift (vertical 75%, horizontal 5%)
Throw distance 1.55x - 2.45x if my calculations are correct.
Video processor is not actually Realta, but rather Silicon Optix Reon VX.

Contrary to what I posted elsewhere, it will have D6 inorganic panels.

And the price is not set in stone yet.

PLEASE, please, please, may there be NO vertical banding (nor brightness/color uniformity) problem...

regards,

Li On

well it's an lcd so there will be those issues :)
and a 720p DLP could still look sharper :D :D

anyway, this fall WILL be a killer fall with all those 1080p machines..... wooh wooh :D

well it's an lcd so there will be those issues :)
and a 720p DLP could still look sharper :D :D

anyway, this fall WILL be a killer fall with all those 1080p machines..... wooh wooh :D



Vertical Banding was mainly due to the organic panels, the new ones are vertically aligned / anorganic.. like SXRD / D-ILA... so no big problems to expect anymore ;-)

Looking pretty good for an LCD. Any idea when we can expect to have first demo units for review?

Also, powered focus, zoom and lens shift (vertical 75%, horizontal 5%)
Powered zoom, focus and lens shift would be a great set of features for the constant height crowd, assuming Grubert's zoom calculations are correct. It would be even better if one could store these settings in memory locations for quick access.

Since this one is real, and the Panasonic is still only rumored, this is my new front runner for a replacement projector.

Oh, yeah, with 10,000:1 CR, I'm assuming a dynamic iris is used, but saw no mention of it in the Babelfish translation. Is one used?

Later,
Bill

WOW. Looks like I might be pulled back into the LCD fold.

Looking pretty good for an LCD. Any idea when we can expect to have first demo units for review?

I guess at IFA (Berlin, 1-6 September)

Just to let you know, cine4home has posted a preview on the Mitsubishi HC5000.

It is written in german, but babelfish might help you there. ;)

cine4home HC5000 preview (http://www.cine4home.de/news/HC5000/HC5000news.htm)


Babelfish?... LOL... the translation results often leave me more confused... :rolleyes:

Babelfish?... LOL... the translation results often leave me more confused... :rolleyes:

I thought I was the only one.:D Cine, are you going to do an English translation?

Ericglo

Vertical Banding was mainly due to the organic panels, the new ones are vertically aligned / anorganic.. like SXRD / D-ILA... so no big problems to expect anymore ;-)
IIRC the major reason for VB is the analog nature of the panel driver system. Inorganic based VAN system, like SxRD will help with CR and durability issues.

Sony talked about a new panel drive system, along with VAN, when they announced Bi:NA6, their competitor to C2Fine.

Bi:NA6 in a HS70 package would be dynamite!

IIRC the major reason for VB is the analog nature of the panel driver system. Inorganic based VAN system, like SxRD will help with CR and durability issues.

Sony talked about a new panel drive system, along with VAN, when they announced Bi:NA6, their competitor to C2Fine.

Bi:NA6 in a HS70 package would be dynamite!




C2Fine has a new driving system (D6 hybrid driving) as well as less Vertical noise due to inorganic oriented film. Durability is another positive side effect...

This sounds like a really nice machine, except perhaps for the smallish 160 W lamp. Is C2Fine supposed to be more light eifficient?

Ekkehart, when will you get to see it in action?

It looks like my shoes box!
:D
Ok I redesigned so you can now use it as a coffee table center piece.

Vertical Banding was mainly due to the organic panels, the new ones are vertically aligned / anorganic.. like SXRD / D-ILA... so no big problems to expect anymore ;-)

Cine4home,

Earlier reports of C2Fine claimed a different drive scheme that likely would have addressed issues like VB and scanline artifacting. Can you comment on whether these new panels incorporate said drive scheme?

EDIT: HoustonHoyaFan,
I see you beat me to it. :)

EDIT Too:
..and I see my question has been answered.

It moves to the top for my upgrade should it come. Now if only I can get those case replacements I was curious about. ;)

ted

An claim of C2Fine was its ability to turn off the pixels. I am curious if this is indeed true and what the resultant black level is - talking about light leak from the housing, optics, etc.

Anyone ever painted a pj case - white is just so 70's. :)

ted

An claim of C2Fine was its ability to turn off the pixels. I am curious if this is indeed true and what the resultant black level is - talking about light leak from the housing, optics, etc.

ted


It is all in the article: The panels are "black" when no voltags is applied. The crystals are vertical aligned. When you turn them on, they get gray to white. ;)

It is all in the article: The panels are "black" when no voltags is applied. The crystals are vertical aligned. When you turn them on, they get gray to white. ;)

Smartypants. :)

So when the pj is turned on, can 0 voltage be applied to the panel (hence no transmission) with the new drive sheme or is there always a bias? Just trying to get a sense of where they get the better panel CR from.

Do you know if the 10K is DI derived and is it aggessive?

ted.

"Just trying to get a sense of where they get the better panel CR from."

They're implying that the liquid crystals are completely opaque when in the off state, which is far different (obviously) than current panels.

Perhaps that CR spec is actually without DI. If it's anywhere close, I wouldn't blame them for leaving it out to hit a price point.

"Just trying to get a sense of where they get the better panel CR from."

They're implying that the liquid crystals are completely opaque when in the off state, which is far different (obviously) than current panels.We should know that light is getting through the panels even at their darkest or they could get a whole lot more than 10k:1 on/off CR out of a system. Especially with transmissive where they could block a huge percentage of the light from every path that doesn't include going through a panel.

--Darin

"Just trying to get a sense of where they get the better panel CR from."

They're implying that the liquid crystals are completely opaque when in the off state, which is far different (obviously) than current panels.

Perhaps that CR spec is actually without DI. If it's anywhere close, I wouldn't blame them for leaving it out to hit a price point.

Noah,

That is why I asked Eikhart whether the panels were indeed capable of shutting off the light transmission (as early press reports suggested) because as Darinp2 says it should be getting more than 10K if they can indeed cut light transmission, so there would have to be light leak from somewhere.

He didn't really give a clear answer (not for me anyway), hence my "Smartypants comment and then trying to get him to answer whether they can indeed cut light transmission or if the panels are biased on - which doesn't make sense.

Darin's comment clarifies what I was trying to get at in my muddled manner.

ted

"We should know that light is getting through the panels even at their darkest or they could get a whole lot more than 10k:1 on/off CR out of a system. Especially with transmissive where they could block a huge percentage of the light from every path that doesn't include going through a panel."

That makes sense.

So the question remains, are they "off" enough to get 10k:1 w/o DI?

I must say every time I've read that they turn off, I've thought to myself, "Don't they know there's no such thing as 'off' in engineering?"

Even if there was, it can only be determined to within the limits of what it's measured with.

Great news. This is exactly what I've been waiting for. I'll definitely be upgrading to one of the new 1080p C2Fine models.

I must say every time I've read that they turn off, I've thought to myself, "Don't they know there's no such thing as 'off' in engineering?"Yep. It's that little trick of rounding 99.99% to 100% or .01% to 0%. Doesn't turn out to be reality with the incredible range of our vision when it comes to how much light they can block or how much light is let through.

I also would like to know whether the 10k:1 is with a dynamic iris. Originally I figured 10k:1 would be reasonable with C2Fine and a dynamic iris, but somebody else was making claims of a huge jump in CR over previous LCD chips like it would get us to those numbers without a DI. Heck, Sony already claims 10k:1 with the HS51A (with a DI) and that is without C2Fine or whatever Sony's big jump was supposed to be (Ba:NA6 or something like that)?

--Darin

If this C2Fine produces a native 10000:1 on/off CR, shows less pixel structure, no vertical banding, and overcomes the organic againg and reliability issues, then DLP will be in a world of hurt.

Sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

Sony already claims 10k:1 with the HS51A (with a DI) and that is without C2Fine or whatever Sony's big jump was supposed to be (Ba:NA6 or something like that)?
--Darin

Darin -

My old Proxima/Sanyo commercial grade LCD projector had organic panels and they flat out degraded over time. I had them replaced twice in the two to three year period I owned the unit. When Sony made the announcement about inorganic panels I thought there might be hope for LCD units once those came out (where are they?).

But LCD panel degrading wasn't the only problem I had with that LCD projector. There was also a degradation of the polarizers over time too and yes I did keep my filters clean. I cleaned them nearly every week on the advice of the tech support folks after the first panel and polarizer failures. Both times the entire LCD panel assembly with polarizers had to be changed. In talking with the tech folks they told me polarizer failures are very common in LCD projectors - especially the blue polarizer. That was the one that failed first in my unit. It has something to do with the dyes uses in the polarizer.

Thus the question becomes - even if Sony, Epson or somebody comes up with inorganic LCD panels that last and last - what about the polarizers? Have any advancements been made in the last couple of years to improve their lifespan? If not then all this excitement about great new LCD projectors is an exercise in futility. When the blue panel fails you get either annoying blue edges or a big dark smudge over the center of the image. Sometimes the smudge goes away as the set warms up but over time it gets worse until it does not go away and the unit becomes unusable.

Icon Master

Both Bi:NA 6 and Crystal clear fine (C2 fine) is said to improve the contrast five times over. D5 from Epson is specified at 750:1. Simple math gives us 3750:1. It is not unrealistic then to achieve 10000:1 with a not super aggressive auto-iris.

With lcos contrast is dependent upon illumination angle and the pre tilt of the liquid crystals. One difficulty with lcos is to use a low pre tilt angle and handle linearity and uniformity issues.

I imagine the C2 fine can use a lower "pre tilt" angle than lcos but that lcos has no light leak since it is reflective.

Darin -


Thus the question becomes - even if Sony, Epson or somebody comes up with inorganic LCD panels that last and last - what about the polarizers? Have any advancements been made in the last couple of years to improve their lifespan? If not then all this excitement about great new LCD projectors is an exercise in futility. When the blue panel fails you get either annoying blue edges or a big dark smudge over the center of the image. Sometimes the smudge goes away as the set warms up but over time it gets worse until it does not go away and the unit becomes unusable.

Icon Master

It's hardly an exercise in futility since the polarizers are relatively easy and inexpensive to replace.

If this C2Fine produces a native 10000:1 on/off CR, shows less pixel structure, no vertical banding, and overcomes the organic againg and reliability issues, then DLP will be in a world of hurt.
Boy, you said it... And I was assuming my next PJ would be LCoS.

Has anybody seen a spec for the throw on this unit?

Has anybody seen a spec for the throw on this unit?

Not specifically, but we can find it going from published specs:

Panel diagonal is 0.7" = 17.78 mm
Min focal length is 24 mm
Max focal length is 38 mm

Going from the formula (http://htrgroup.com/?tab=projector-docs&section=all):

throw ratio = 1.15 * focal length / panel diagonal

Tr (min) = 1.15 * 24 / 17.78 = 1.5523
Tr (max) = 1.15 * 38 / 17.78 = 2.4578

[Note for any engineers out there: actually I think the multiplier shouldn't be 1.15 but rather sec (arc tan (9/16))= 1.1473474844178637061557324699192] ;)

Darin -

My old Proxima/Sanyo commercial grade LCD projector had organic panels and they flat out degraded over time. I had them replaced twice in the two to three year period I owned the unit. When Sony made the announcement about inorganic panels I thought there might be hope for LCD units once those came out (where are they?).

But LCD panel degrading wasn't the only problem I had with that LCD projector. There was also a degradation of the polarizers over time too and yes I did keep my filters clean. I cleaned them nearly every week on the advice of the tech support folks after the first panel and polarizer failures. Both times the entire LCD panel assembly with polarizers had to be changed. In talking with the tech folks they told me polarizer failures are very common in LCD projectors - especially the blue polarizer. That was the one that failed first in my unit. It has something to do with the dyes uses in the polarizer.

Thus the question becomes - even if Sony, Epson or somebody comes up with inorganic LCD panels that last and last - what about the polarizers? Have any advancements been made in the last couple of years to improve their lifespan? If not then all this excitement about great new LCD projectors is an exercise in futility. When the blue panel fails you get either annoying blue edges or a big dark smudge over the center of the image. Sometimes the smudge goes away as the set warms up but over time it gets worse until it does not go away and the unit becomes unusable.

Icon Master

Your experience with LCDs is not typical. The general perception that LCD panels and polarizers are prone to failure is based on a study commissioned by Texas Instruments in which cherry picked portable LCD projectors were run 24/7 under unusual conditions. Under those circumstances, some of the LCDs experienced failures as early as about 1,500 hours. The dlps did not similarly fail.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp_test.htm

The study stands for no more than that portable projectors should not be run under those extremes.

Still, certain models could be prone to heat-related issues if they do not properly circulate air. I am the owner of a Hitachi 50V500 LCD projection TV that has a notorious problem causing heat-related picture degradation requiring light engine replacement. The replacement light engines have improved cooling in them.

There are reasons not to choose a LCD. In my opinion, this is not one of them.

Sweet!

I was ready to get the Benq 8720 to replace my Epson 500 but since my HT room wont be done for another month or so I will just wait for Cedia and see how these new LCDs will perform. Glad they will have C2Fine.:)

The cine4home HC5000 preview seems to have been pulled. :eek:

The cine4home HC5000 preview seems to have been pulled. :eek:

:eek: indeed

Just a few hours ago, I got a PM from Ekkehart asking me to remove the pictures taken from his site. I complied at once, of course.

Are we now going to get the visit of the Men in Black to wipe our memories? ;)

Hmmm...sounds like someone jumped the gun a little bit and Mitsubishi are not too pleased ;)

too late cats out of the bag lol Im looking forward to panny's 1080p lcd.... c2fine is icing on the cake! jeffro

Anyone get a cache of the review before it got pulled?

"c2fine is icing on the cake"

If you ask me, it *is* the cake

too late cats out of the bag lol Im looking forward to panny's 1080p lcd.... c2fine is icing on the cake! jeffro

Knowing Panasonic's track record with optics I'd be wary of them, unless they redesign their lenses.

The 1080p resolution demands very sharp optics for the resolution to show onscreen. That's precisely the reason why the horizontal lens shift of the Mits is only 5% (that's a mere 4" left or right for a 100"-diagonal screen - barely enough to fine-tune the position of the image in your screen).

Your experience with LCDs is not typical.

His experience is not typical for an HT type user. While I would be (and have been) one of the first to say the TI study was an exaggerated load of crap, the basic premise is absolutely not. And the concern about LCD degradation definitely pre-dates that study, very few people took that seriously.

We install a lot of projectors. We run them up to 18 hours a day, every day, always. Up until a few years ago, we used a lot of LCDs, along with DILA and DLP. We have basically stopped using them as quite nearly every single LCD model was subject to this type of deterioration at some point, ranging from as little as 6000 hours up to 10,000 or so. Medium level high lumen models were some of the worst (<$10K 3000-4000L).

This was in spite of scheduled maintenance and filter cleaning. We now typically use DLP, 3 chip where we can justify the cost, DILA where higher lumens aren't required, but often 1 chip in spite of my basic objection to it due to color fringing (we typicaly require pretty significant brightness, and the viewers are often in motion, so it is apparent in a lot of these installations).

So this is a very valid reason to not consider LCD, unless you are pretty sure you are not going to put more than 3000-5000 hours on your projector in its lifetime. The day some decent high brightness models of C2Fine and Bi:Na come out un the sub $10K price range, I will be ecstatic.

BB

Knowing Panasonic's track record with optics I'd be wary of them, unless they redesign their lenses.

The 1080p resolution demands very sharp optics for the resolution to show onscreen. That's precisely the reason why the horizontal lens shift of the Mits is only 5% (that's a mere 4" left or right for a 100"-diagonal screen - barely enough to fine-tune the position of the image in your screen).


Grubert your original post of the spec says "Lens shift: horizontal 75%, vertical 5%" and now this post says 5% horizontal do you know which one it is? This could be a deal breaker for me based on my room setup

Not specifically, but we can find it going from published specs:



Excellent, Thanks!

The min is pretty close to what I've set up for my room, anticipating the Ruby...

Grubert your original post of the spec says "Lens shift: horizontal 75%, vertical 5%" and now this post says 5% horizontal do you know which one it is? This could be a deal breaker for me based on my room setup

Sorry for the confusion. It is vertical 75%, horizontal 5%. Not sure if that is good or bad news for you.

Presumably C2Fine is a development for all of the members of the 3LCD consortium, so we can look forward to something interesting from Sanyo, Panasonic and Hitachi as well (and something overpriced from Epson, of course.)

The speculated 3750:1 native contrast number (i.e. pre-iris / pre-optical engine tweaks) would be very, very impressive, because that's higher than the native contrast of Darkchip3 and some LCOS implementations. Sure, we're used to seeing numbers like 5000:1 and 10000:1 but those are certainly not native panel numbers, so I imagine real numbers from a tweaked projector design would be higher, but more importantly, the actual image from such a projector would have massive punch compared to the old overinflated numbers. I'm not holding my breath for a real native contrast of close to 4000:1, though, I think a ~2500:1 native panel number for the first generation would still be a big breakthrough, compared to the D5s (AE900/Z4/etc) 750:1.

" The speculated 3750:1 native contrast number (i.e. pre-iris / pre-optical engine tweaks) would be very, very impressive, because that's higher than the native contrast of Darkchip3 and some LCOS implementations. "

If you look back a few months a projector tech (can't recall his user name) was saying C2 Fine panels for rear projection were hitting 9k-11k *native* CR. Then consider that with a DI system on top.

Shawn

Did a quick search for the posts.

Two pieces of important info in the posts D6 = D5 + C2Fine
D6 9k-12k CR in RP panels.

See:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6871741&&#post6871741
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6984266&&#post6984266

Shawn

We install a lot of projectors. We run them up to 18 hours a day, every day, always.

BB


I don't know how the projectors you were using were rated but my Hitachi's manual says that it is not designed to be used more than six hours every day, whether continuously or not.

This is not a problem for me and I don't expect that it would be for most people, who probably would never sit and watch four 90 minute movies in a row.

If you were using projectors that were rated for 18 hours a day and they failed in the manner that you describe, it seems like you should have taken it up with the manufacturer.

"The speculated 3750:1 native contrast number (i.e. pre-iris / pre-optical engine tweaks) would be very, very impressive, because that's higher than the native contrast of Darkchip3"

DC3's have been measured at 4000:1, i.e., Yamaha DPX1300 in WSR, and that accounts for the entire optical path, so the chip CR must be higher than that.

As for the 750:1 CR being mentioned, we don't know what that means; Epson was quoting 500:1 for their chips when the'r pj's were measuring 1000:1.

Actually, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, the native panel contrast is lower than the actual CR achieved by projectors. Even a non DI projector can get higher contrast than the native CR of the panel, with some tweaks. For example, some DC3 projectors get > 5000:1 contrast without using DI, but that is higher than the native contrast of Darkchip3. Fixed iris(es) is / are the primary non-DI method of increasing contrast, I'm not sure what else (if anything) is done to increase CR. Maybe someone else can correct me if I'm wrong.

Actually, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, the native panel contrast is lower than the actual CR achieved by projectors. Even a non DI projector can get higher contrast than the native CR of the panel, with some tweaks.I would say that this is only by defining "native" as some focal stop factor that is different than being used. So, kind of arbitrary IMO.

--Darin

I don't know how the projectors you were using were rated but my Hitachi's manual says that it is not designed to be used more than six hours every day, whether continuously or not.

This is not a problem for me and I don't expect that it would be for most people, who probably would never sit and watch four 90 minute movies in a row.

If you were using projectors that were rated for 18 hours a day and they failed in the manner that you describe, it seems like you should have taken it up with the manufacturer.

Many different models. Some are installation class projectors, some are cheap presentation projectors. I noted that this does not apply to HT users in particular.

But that is beside the point. Your claim the this is a phenomenon made up by TI is false. This occurs in the real world in nearly all LCD units at some point in their lives, no matter what "level" of build they are. The manufacturers honor the warranty, but that doesn't help us with downtime issues. So we don't use them any more unless unavoidable.

BB

Wait... what kind of projector do you have BB? And how long have you had it? ;)

Wait... what kind of projector do you have BB? And how long have you had it? ;)
...and why do I have "It's a small world" suddenly running through my head?!?! :eek: :D

Brandon B,

I never suggested that TI's claims were false. There is no question but that LCD projectors can fail if they are used in a way that they were not designed to be used and that dlps will not fail if used in that same way.

The real question is whether this is an issue that should concern home theater projector buyers. You concede that it is not, but then go on to claim that even those buyers should not expect more than 5,000 hours out of their projector and state that it will happen to all LCD projectors at some point in their lives. So, do you really think that HT buyers should be concered about this or not?

Presumably C2Fine is a development for all of the members of the 3LCD consortium, so we can look forward to something interesting from Sanyo, Panasonic and Hitachi as well (and something overpriced from Epson, of course.)

I know why you made the Epson comment (the Cinema 800) but I wouldn't imply Epson's are overpriced even if that one may seem to be. Having owned PJs from all 3 companies (and tested the Z4) I can tell you Epson has the best build quality, best case design, and they actually ship their pjs pretty much dead bang calibrated, at least from my experience with my Cinema 500.

I do hope Epson releases their next model at a decent price because given the choice, I'd take it over the Panny/Sanyo model any day of the week as I am pretty sure the Epson will come better out of the box and offer better performance. However, if the next Epson is like double the Sanyo/Panny price (so say an 8k msrp assuming the other companies come in at 4k msrp) then I don't see myself getting it because that price would be up there...but if the Epson model was say 1-1.5k or so more then I would get it and be happy with the hours I'd save not having to try and eek out some quality performance out of it like I had to with the Z4 I tested and also be happy knowing its specs are far more accurate than the other models whose specs will probably be overstated big time.

The real question is whether this is an issue that should concern home theater projector buyers. You concede that it is not, but then go on to claim that even those buyers should not expect more than 5,000 hours out of their projector and state that it will happen to all LCD projectors at some point in their lives. So, do you really think that HT buyers should be concered about this or not?

My HS10 lasted 7500 until the blue polarizer plate went (though I'm still using it on a daily basis). I think if I hadn't gotten lazy cleaning or replacing the filter (probably haven't done either for the last 3K hours), the plates would still be working fine.

As it is, it's about a $400 repair from Sony to have all the polarizer plates repaired. After all the heavy use from this projector is this $400 repair I ended up with a reason that I never should have purchased it in the first place? Hardly. If you save a few thousand by getting a 1080 LCD instead of DLP going in, possible (and relatively inexpensive) repairs way down the road shouldn't be a huge concern.

My HS10 lasted 7500 until the blue polarizer plate went (though I'm still using it on a daily basis). I think if I hadn't gotten lazy cleaning or replacing the filter (probably haven't done either for the last 3K hours), the plates would still be working fine.

As it is, it's about a $400 repair from Sony to have all the polarizer plates repaired. After all the heavy use from this projector is this $400 repair I ended up with a reason that I never should have purchased it in the first place? Hardly. If you save a few thousand by getting a 1080 LCD instead of DLP going in, possible (and relatively inexpensive) repairs way down the road shouldn't be a huge concern.

I agree - it wouldn't come down to price of replacement polarizers and stuff, as to which technology you choose in the end but completly different parameters.

A bit off-topic, but I've still got my HS10 as well and enjoy it tremendosly, even though I know there are much better projectors available today at lower prices. But I've been saving my bucks for the right 1080 machine and I feel that an upgrade is getting closer and closer. I was prepared to take the dive into SXRD next year with the new models coming later this fall, but with the reports of the performance of these new D6 panels, I might wanna check it out.

How about the smoothness of D6/Bi:Na LCD 1080 panels - will it resemble the CRT-like smothness of SXRD or will there be a easy-to-spot difference between the two? Anyone?

Any new hard info with regards to Sony's Bi:Na panels making it to a FP?

Does anyone have info or links to sites that explain D6/Bi:Na in more detail? - I'm intruiged by their ability to block light amongst other stuff and would like to read more.

Thx :)

Given that sony seems to be going whole-hog into SXRD, including a new, lower price/performance FP model, I cannot imagine a 1080p LCD will be forthcoming from them soon. The HS-51A/60 could prpbably survive another year on specs alone at a lower price point.

Given that sony seems to be going whole-hog into SXRD, including a new, lower price/performance FP model, I cannot imagine a 1080p LCD will be forthcoming from them soon. The HS-51A/60 could prpbably survive another year on specs alone at a lower price point.I could see them doing both if they are different divisions responsible for them. It was interesting to me how the dynamic iris went into the LCD product first, then when it was introduced into the SXRD line (with the Ruby), much of the software from that LCD projector was used. I'm not really sure where they draw their lines within Sony in relation to these.

--Darin

DeaconFrost - These HS10's turned out to be quite the workhorses despite the early issues/fears. I'm also ready to upgrade to HD and believe there will be as good another price barrier breakthrough this year for 1080 as there was for WXGA when we bought our HS10's.

And it goes to show that if you hold out for state of the art resolution at your price point that you get the extra mileage out of them. No offense to AE300 users (that came out when the HS10 did), but I can tell you that I wouldn't have lasted this long if I purchased a 480i PJ at the time.

I also hope they come out with a new lower end SXRD machine, but my best guess is that the next reasonably affordable 1080 PJ will be LCD. But given the improvements in LCD technology in the last few years, I'll happily shell out for a 1080 LCD is that's what's available in the $3500 and less category. And I have no doubt one will be at least announced at CEDIA, but more likely 3 or 4.

No offense to AE300 users (that came out when the HS10 did), but I can tell you that I wouldn't have lasted this long if I purchased a 480i PJ at the time.
Hey, my AE300 is 540p!!!! Get it straight bub. :D :p

In all seriousness, I'm still using mine and it has over 3000 hours on it. Last time I opened it up (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=572889) you could see a faint discolorization on the blue polarizer. Being that it is a slow degredation it has not been noticable on the projected image but I'm sure it slightly affects brightness/contrast/etc...

I hope the new D6 fix the LCD problems but I would buy again even they had very slight VB/FPN like the current models. I'm rainbow sensitive so DLP is out and I'm price sensitive so LCOS is too! The first 1080p projector with lens shift and >2500:1 CR for under $2500 has my money... my guess is on Sanyo/Panny with none of the fancy motorized zoom/focus of the Mits from this thread.
-Matt

P.S. Remember the AE300 cost almost half as much as the HS10... it was never a 1:1 comparison. And today, the resale values are probably the same (i.e. crap).

Given that sony seems to be going whole-hog into SXRD, including a new, lower price/performance FP model, I cannot imagine a 1080p LCD will be forthcoming from them soon. The HS-51A/60 could prpbably survive another year on specs alone at a lower price point.

Well, the succesor to the Ruby is rumored to arrive somewhere in the $7K region, so that would imo still leave room for LCD 1080 projectors in the sub $4-5K catagory. The HS50/51 was a succesful product even though other LCD fp manufacturers had cheaper and in many ways similar products to display. So I guess that there's a lot of happy Sony fp owners out there, who would like to see what Sony comes up with next - and I'm actually one of them. I think that the HS50/51 sales will drop like a stone in water when 1080 LCD's are announced from Panny and Sanyo, because then people will know when, where and probably how much. :)

DeaconFrost - These HS10's turned out to be quite the workhorses despite the early issues/fears.

Oh yes. It's still looking great for it's time. ;)

But given the improvements in LCD technology in the last few years, I'll happily shell out for a 1080 LCD is that's what's available in the $3500 and less category. And I have no doubt one will be at least announced at CEDIA, but more likely 3 or 4.

Well, we know about the Mits, and where there's a Panny, there's also a Sanyo if history is to be repreated. Perhaps Hitachi, or Epson as well? I guess that a Sony Bi:Na machine would come a bit later with slightly better specs and a bit more expensive.

It's funny - when I chose the HS10 over the AE300, that was a tough call but today I'm glad I did. :)

All information on the HC5000 has been pulled from cine4home, pipro.de and hifissimo.com

This could be a good sign (the projector is really launching, but Mitsubishi is trying to keep it under wraps and imposing an embargo on information) or a bad sign (the projector is not launching anytime soon and those sites jumped the gun).

What do you think?

This could be a good sign (the projector is really launching, but Mitsubishi is trying to keep it under wraps and imposing an embargo on information) or a bad sign (the projector is not launching anytime soon and those sites jumped the gun).

What do you think?To me it's very obviously the former: cine4home can't have stolen the machine and information, but they got it from some lower ranked Mitsubishi management which thought the early information would generate a lead in the market (which it can indeed). Then higher ranked management intervened for getting the launch process back under full control. This type of effect can be combined with some delay in introduction/production, but not likely much.

Purely speculative, I admit, but I've run through this type of processes myself various times.

The whole thing, I have to say, looks extremely encouraging. Apparently we are within 6..12 months of abundant choices for cheap 1080 projectors. The breed of HD81 appears not to stay an early expception, but something very soon under heaviest competition. This will bring us lens shifts and brightness choices, all for a bargain.

For quite some while a have waited now (in-voluntarily) for settling with a high end 3DLP 1080 machine. As it looks, at the same time I will get commodity machines at a fraction of the cost, with only little penalty in PQ. And then I can follow the early 1080 learning curve by buying and selling and buying again, with still spending much less than with a 3DLP :)

All information on the HC5000 has been pulled from cine4home, pipro.de and hifissimo.com

This could be a good sign (the projector is really launching, but Mitsubishi is trying to keep it under wraps and imposing an embargo on information) or a bad sign (the projector is not launching anytime soon and those sites jumped the gun).

What do you think?

Well, there's been substantial info about the Panny AE1100 arriving this fall and if this is an indication that the Epson D6 1080 panels are ready to go, then every other LCD pj manufacturer shouldn't be far behind including Mits. I certainly hope that a problem hasn't arisen with these panels. I don't mind if the Mits will debute a bit later than projected.

But of course no one confirmed that the 1100 will use D6 panels - I just sort of took that for granted. :rolleyes:

For quite some while a have waited now (in-voluntarily) for settling with a high end 3DLP 1080 machine.
I decided not to wait for 1080 anymore and bought the Kodak 333. Glad I did...it's fantastic. (shipping to europe was no problem and the only thing you need to change is the power cord, which is standard computer-type)

Life is short and so on...better to really enjoy 720 now I thought.

Life is short and so on...better to really enjoy 720 now I thought.Probably right and more reasonable than what I do...
But I know myself: if I would now buy a higher end 720, then I would only enjoy it 6..12 months, and would then sell again at a substantial loss. So after having waited so long, I decided to continue waiting another 6 or so months. And by chance this is supported by a move to another country, which has set my HT out of operation anyway for some time :(

Well, there's been substantial info about the Panny AE1100 arriving this fall and if this is an indication that the Epson D6 1080 panels are ready to go, then every other LCD pj manufacturer shouldn't be far behind including Mits. I certainly hope that a problem hasn't arisen with these panels. I don't mind if the Mits will debute a bit later than projected.

But of course no one confirmed that the 1100 will use D6 panels - I just sort of took that for granted. :rolleyes:

If there IS a 1080P Panasonic unit there will probably be a Sony for a bit more money too. I'll probably stay with Sony if possible. I was going to upgrade to DLP this time around, but now the resolution bump will probably keep me back in LCD land. That is unless...unless... Sony releases a sub $3500 SXRD?

I guess we can dream.

It will be interesting to see if they can get a good deal of light through the new D6 panels without dropping CR too much.

I believe C2Fine has a much greater aperature than earlier D5 panels, and therefore, should be more light efficient.

Ah, but the beauty of the Mitsubishi HC5000 is that its designers were smart enough to include a top notch, albeit inexpensive if purchased in large quantities, video processing chip in the form of the Silicon Optix Reon VX, a chip that i for one hadn't even heard about (it appears to be a lower cost version of the Realta HQV chip)....And that, my friends, is something I doubt very much neither Sony nor Panasonic would include in their upcoming 1080P front projectors as both companies seem to prefer using their own "in-house" solution for video processing, which is a huge mistake, IMHO....

Ah, but the beauty of the Mitsubishi HC5000 is that its designers were smart enough to include a top notch, albeit inexpensive if purchased in large quantities, video processing chip...
Absolutely and this will have a significant influence on my 1080p purchase. I already have a Crystalio (I) which will deinterlace and scale my SDI SD sources (with nice Faroudja processing of video). Not having to buy another scaler to handle 1080i deinterlacing would be great.

All information on the HC5000 has been pulled from cine4home, pipro.de and hifissimo.com

This could be a good sign (the projector is really launching, but Mitsubishi is trying to keep it under wraps and imposing an embargo on information) or a bad sign (the projector is not launching anytime soon and those sites jumped the gun).

What do you think?

It was at French dealer who had gotten his hand on some information from Mitsubishi, and copied it to the Net. When Mitsubishi found out, the pulled the plug.

This PJ is scheduled to be introduced at IFA in Berlin in September, and my guess is that it will be in sale in oktober here in Europe.

No new speculations or theories on this PJ?

Here's some info concerning the Mitsubishi HC5000 that was posted and then deleted from Cine4Home's website :
Native 1920x1080 pixels LCD panels, apparently manufactured by Epson, model "D6 C2Fine Hybrid Driving Technology", which implies that they use an inorganic layer (for much improved lifespan and no vertical banding), vertically aligned "untwisted" LCD crystals (which naturally display black instead of white, for much improved contrast and shadow detail), flat analog driver cable in direct proximity to the LCD panel for faster triggering...0.7" diagonal panel size...
160 watts lamp rated at 5.000 hours in "eco" mode and 3.000 hours in "normal" mode.
Luminance : 1.000 lumens /// Contrast ratio : 10.000:1 (no dynamic iris).
Vertical lens shift : 75% /// Horizontal lens shift : 5% (only; due to the nature of the high quality glass optics : any higher and it could suffer loss of sharpness)...
Motorized lens shift + zoom + focus....
Video processing chip by Silicon Optix, model "Reon VX", which offers four field by field SD/HD deinterlacing, SD/HD film cadence processing for 3:2 and 2:2 cadences, SD/HD multi-directional diagonal filter (MDDF), enhanced SD/HD detail, color spectrum control, full 10Bit 4:4:4 scaling....
Weight of projector : 5 kilos or about 11 lbs...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I wonder what is the response time of these new Epson panels, or, more to the point, how fast is it compared to Sony's SXRD response time of less than 3 milliseconds and whether or not these panels have better "fill factor" than the average of 50% ~55% that is the standard for LCD panels....

I wonder what is the response time of these new Epson panels, or, more to the point, how fast is it compared to Sony's SXRD response time of less than 3 milliseconds and whether or not these panels have better "fill factor" than the average of 50% ~55% that is the standard for LCD panels....

The rumor is/was that C2Fine and Bi:Na has slightly better fill ratio than D5 panels - perhaps somewhere between 60-70%. That's nice, but offcourse it can't match DLP or SXRD, but with 1080 native resolution - will you able to detect any screendoor from say - 1,5X sitting distance?

Thx for the Cine4home info btw. :)

The rumor is/was that C2Fine and Bi:Na has slightly better fill ratio than D5 panels - perhaps somewhere between 60-70%. That's nice, but offcourse it can't match DLP or SXRD, but with 1080 native resolution - will you able to detect any screendoor from say - 1,5X sitting distance?

Thx for the Cine4home info btw. :)


Exactly, I am hoping for about 70% fill factor. Why? I feel the SXRD picture is two soft, because of its fill factor being so high its edges are lost decreasing the sharpness. With the 1080P LCD panels you shouldn't have a problem with screen door. With 70% fill you should get a really sharp picture without the SDE. I am predicting if the contrast ratio is accurate, high quality optics, and realta processing. This thing should throw a picture better than the RUBY. The EPSON RP they showed at CES with C2 Fine was considered the best pic in Rear Projection by many who atteneded includiing myself.

Exactly, I am hoping for about 70% fill factor. Why? I feel the SXRD picture is two soft, because of its fill factor being so high its edges are lost decreasing the sharpness. With the 1080P LCD panels you shouldn't have a problem with screen door. With 70% fill you should get a really sharp picture without the SDE. I am predicting if the contrast ratio is accurate, high quality optics, and realta processing. This thing should throw a picture better than the RUBY. The EPSON RP they showed at CES with C2 Fine was considered the best pic in Rear Projection by many who atteneded includiing myself.

Just to point it out, I believe that the relativly 'soft' image of the Ruby is not caused by the use of SXRD panels, but rather the optics. The Qualia004 has a sharper image and it is also a SXRD machine.

But the apparent better sharpness of 1080 DLP versus 1080 SXRD might have something to do with the mechanics of each technology. Some prefer the ultrasharp DLP image and some prefer the softer more filmlike SXRD image. None of them are 'more correct' than the other representing the original source.

BTW if my memory serves me correct, I seem to remember newsblogs of the official websites from Epson and Sony stating, that C2Fine and/or Bi:Na had better fillratio than previous panels. The number of a 10% improvement seems to come back to me... :)

Edit: found the original newsposts here (no mention of fillratio - I got the 10% from the higher transmittance rate of Bi:Na panels) :

Sony 25/2 2005 (http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200502/05-007E/index.html)

Epson 24/5 2005 (http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/2005/news_2005_05_24.htm)

Exactly, I am hoping for about 70% fill factor. Why? I feel the SXRD picture is two soft, because of its fill factor being so high its edges are lost decreasing the sharpness. With the 1080P LCD panels you shouldn't have a problem with screen door. With 70% fill you should get a really sharp picture without the SDE. I am predicting if the contrast ratio is accurate, high quality optics, and realta processing. This thing should throw a picture better than the RUBY. The EPSON RP they showed at CES with C2 Fine was considered the best pic in Rear Projection by many who atteneded includiing myself.

While you may find it pleasing, perceived sharpness due to screen door is not accurate.

The samples in a digital capture are meant to be reconstructed in to a continuous image.

The higher transmittance ratio is likely the direct result of a higher fill factor.

"I believe that the relativly 'soft' image of the Ruby is not caused by the use of SXRD panels, but rather the optics."

LCOS also some bleed between pixels because the LC is continuous.

"The higher transmittance ratio is likely the direct result of a higher fill factor."

Also possibly the different nature of LC.

From CEPro (http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/14282.html):

Mitsubishi offers a small teaser on a projector debuting at the CEDIA Expo. The new HC5000U is a 1080p projector "aimed at high-end early adapters [sic]," according to the manufacturer.

The unit uses "new LCD panels that boast a 10,000:1 contrast ratio, with our own exclusive algorithm to control the dynamic iris for super dark detail." It boasts a 5,000-hour lamp, which is side-accessible for relatively painless replacement.

Yep, DI it is. I wonder what the native CR is.

Yep, DI it is. I wonder what the native CR is.
See post #41 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7893779&&#post7893779) of this thread (if you haven't seen it already).

From another forum, Mitsubishi is showing this projector at CEDIA in Australia. Initial impressions are very good. I'm looking forward to seeing it at CEDIA in Denver in a few weeks.

So, for those of you with a crystal ball, how soon after CEDIA would you expect to see this available?

i hear after ifa show in berlin.
so i think late sep.to late oct.

From another forum, Mitsubishi is showing this projector at CEDIA in Australia. Initial impressions are very good. I'm looking forward to seeing it at CEDIA in Denver in a few weeks.Any link to this another forum? :) PM me if you can't post it here.

According to a photo I got from a trade show in Japan, the D5 0.9" 1080p panel has aperture ratio 51% and target contrast of 600:1, compared to 1.3" 1080p D4 panel of 58% and 500:1 contrast. FYI

Probably due to the panel size shrunk, the aperture ratio is down from D4, though the contrast ratio is improved. One may wonder what is the size of D6 panel? 0.7" or still 0.9"?

TzungILin
0.7 inch 1080p D6
http://www.hcinema.de/pro/anzeigen.php?angabe=mitsubishihc5000

I so hope that this is going to live up to expectations... Incidentally, is that an 8% verdict on the brightness or a mistake?

It doesn't mention 1080p as an input, only 1080i. That's a waste if true.

here are some news: http://www.cine4home.de/indexmain.htm

here are the highlights:

-c2fine panels
-inorganic layer
-no vertical banding
-hqv
-1000 ansi
-5000:1 cr
-3990 euro i guess the same in $

Cool. The pre-review is back on the cine4home site. Looks like it's official now.

It doesn't mention 1080p as an input, only 1080i. That's a waste if true.

The updated preview on cine4home.de shows 1080p 50Hz/60Hz as an input option. True 48Hz or 72Hz would be nice though.

Can someone explain the 50/60hz to me? What exactly is this, and why would 48 or 72 be better?

5000:1 contrast WITH a dynamic iris?Well now it's starting to make more sense as to how these 1080p LCD units could sell for half the price of single-chip 1080p DLP or LCoS/SXRD units without completely taking over the market! :p

That spec is a bit disappointing and now I really wonder what sort of contrast the C2Fine panels have without the dynamic iris involved. Given that the Sanyo Z4 was claiming higher contrast than that (7000:1 wasn't it?) using the old 700:1 contrast LCD panels, it throws a lot of stuff into question!

My hope was for 2000:1 panel contrast from the C2Fine panels. Some of the early news made it seem hopeful that this contrast number would actually be surpassed at that 4000:1 was really possible from the LCD panel itself! But if 5000:1 WITH a dynamic iris is the best that C2Fine can do? Did it merely stay the same, or is this dynamic iris really really subtle?

Jon

24/25/30/48/50/60p is a must for new high end projectors
when soon bd and hd dvd will output such format.

Translation of Press Release (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Fnews%2FHC5000%2F HC5000news.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8)

It takes a little while to load...
-Matt

Can someone explain the 50/60hz to me? What exactly is this, and why would 48 or 72 be better?
It's important for NTSC film material originally recorded at 24fps. Quite simply, 60Hz is not divisible by 24, so if you attempt to display a 24fps source at 60Hz you can get visible judder - some frames have to be repeated but not all.

The only way to get judder-free NTSC film on a 60Hz display is to perform time-interpolation of frames and that is the realm of very expensive broadcast equipment...

However, any display capable of natively displaying at a frequency multiple of 24Hz (i.e. 24Hz, 48Hz, 72Hz) will allow a judder free picture.

Mitsubishi must be aiming for a very artifact free image since they seem to implement a DI to be subtle. We are probably looking at 2500:1 native and 5000:1 with DI. The increase of native contrast from 700:1 will make a big difference for LCD.

Mitsubishi must be aiming for a very artifact free image since they seem to implement a DI to be subtle.Have to say, I like the sound of that!

anyone know the response time for cfine lcd panels?

"My hope was for 2000:1 panel contrast from the C2Fine panels...But if 5000:1 WITH a dynamic iris is the best that C2Fine can do?"

2.5X CR increase from the DI sounds like a reasonable implementation to me.

But if 5000:1 WITH a dynamic iris is the best that C2Fine can do?
Jon

What if this were a D65 5000:1?

Does anyone know how well Mitsubishi's specs meet calibrated specs out of the box?

It will be interesting to see how this streets in relation to the rumoured PEARL.

ted

That spec is a bit disappointing and now I really wonder what sort of contrast the C2Fine panels have without the dynamic iris involved. Given that the Sanyo Z4 was claiming higher contrast than that (7000:1 wasn't it?) using the old 700:1 contrast LCD panels, it throws a lot of stuff into question!

Jon

Well.... :rolleyes:

Correctly callibrated to D65-standard the Z4 is WAY OFF 7000:1. What we can hpoe for is that Mitsubushi is a little more "in the real world" regarding how they list their CR.....

Yes, the big question is, how is the stated 5000:1 contrast calculated and under what circumstances? It's interesting that the previously leaked info had a stated 10,000:1 contrast and now, the seemingly official information is 5000:1.

In any case, my only point was that the contrast spec has become all but useless if we don't know how it is measured. This was always the case, I suppose, but at least before you could kind of count on manufacturers just stating the highest number possible! :p

In any case, the dynamic iris seems to be for certain now and clearly the C2Fine panels do not have native 10,000:1 contrast as had been speculated at one point. Like I said though, anything over 2000:1 native contrast in anything other than a total bat cave is going to look just about as good as anything of higher contrast anyway! So here's hoping that we'll see that kind of improvement. Exciting stuff no matter what! :D

Jon

Did we really expect anything other than a dynamic iris for 4000 Euros? I agree though that we need to know the true native calibrated CR and how aggressive the iris is (or how much it can be controlled).

cine4home has posted some updated specs:
10,000:1 contrast ratio with Iris. Hopefully this means that the previously mentioned 5,000:1 can be achieved without Iris????

They also posted the noise level at 19dB which would make it just about silent.

Horst

A bird told med that it will be Sony panels.... Interesting rumour, but then probably NOT without Iris...

A bird told med that it will be Sony panels.... Interesting rumour, but then probably NOT without Iris...

Bi:NA6 panels then? If the HC5000 REALLY has Sony panels I'd be very suprised. (If so, it's an all new tactic from Sony)

All the released specs so far say D6 C2Fine panels. Epson...

the bird was drunk probably..... :) jeff

It seems it was their new business series ;)

All my sources now also point to C2fine, and 19dB fan noise :)

So when is this expected to be available?

Early Nov.

regards,

Li On

InFocus vs. Benq 8720 Comparisons w/120" screen-17' throw

I have read really good things about the Benq 8720 and have seen several very good deals on line. I talked to an installer yesterday who said if that is what I wanted he could get one as an authorized dealer but advised against it. He didn't give me specifices but I suspect it is the old "bulb" problem.

I have also read a lot, including the review by AVS forum, about the InFocus
IN76. Best Buy has the IN72 but told me they aren't authorized to sell the IN76. I have also seen a couple of sites that are selling the IN76 for just over $2000 (under $2050) which I feel is a good deal.

Has anyone seen both of the projectors in operation under "proper" conditions.

I'm trying to get a 120" diagonal picture with the projector located 17' from the screen.

If anyone has any knowledge, thoughts, or information as to how either of these pojectors work out w/a 17' throw to get (if possible) a great 120" picture would be very much appreciated. This will be my entry level projector until I can afford (if ever) a 1080p single Dark Chip 3 DLP.
Thanks again for your input.

I'm very impressed with the IN76: very bright, and good black level. It doesn't have lens shift, though, so you need to be sure that it can be set up for your situation. According to projectorcentral, a 17 ft throw is right at the maximum for a 120" diag screen. I'm presently using a In76 on a 120" Graywolf II screen, and it looks very impressive.

Also heard from a very reliable source that the H5000 was to be released in the US before Nov 2006. Some word may be given at Cedia this Sep 13-17.

In Sweden HC5000 will be out for demo at dealers in october and delivery to end users early november.

My throw is ~14 ft and the pj is on a 24" H table between our two main seats; this is certainly not ideal but the simplest arrangement to get started. I'm having to use keystone to square the pic, not ideal. If I keep this pj, I will mount it on the ceiling (inverted) and probably a bit further back. Not sure about keeping the screen; it is better than I had thought it would be.

The IN76 doesn't even belong in this forum (should be in <$3.5k), let alone this thread. Lets try to stay on track here...

The IN76 doesn't even belong in this forum (should be in <$3.5k), let alone this thread. Lets try to stay on track here...

Thank you!

Some interesting information and pictures on the Mitsubishi Japan site (http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/index.html).

The panels are indeed 0.74" c2fine.

http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/images/lens.jpg
All-glass lens with three ED elements

http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/images/oputical_engine.jpg
Optical engine

http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/images/iris_01.jpg http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/images/iris_02.jpghttp://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/images/iris_03.jpg
Dynamic iris

http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/images/size01.gif
Vertical lens shift

http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/images/size02.gif
Horizontal lens shift

Top, bottom, side, front and back views (http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/products/lvp_hc5000/gaikei.html)

The low dispersion elements in the glass lens should keep CA to a minimum. Along with the c2fine panels, this is looking like a very nice projector for the money.

Also a nice article (in Japanese) on Impress Watch (http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060822/mitsu1.htm)

Native contrast is 2,000:1.
Recommended price is 450,000 yen (just under $3,900).

The article said the 450,000 yen is street price. The Sony Pearl should be around 1.2k more. Maybe we need a poll for which "cheap" 1080p to get this fall! :D

regards,

Li On

The article said the 450,000 yen is street price. The Sony Pearl should be around 1.2k more. Maybe we need a poll for which "cheap" 1080p to get this fall! :D

regards,

Li On

Going by expected US MSRP, it's $3,999 vs $5,499.

What does c2fine give you over the hc3000.This looks like it could be one heck of a FP/with vertical and horz lens shift.I wanted the hc3000 but without lens shift it would not work in my set up.This could be killer.BUDDA

I did not see fill factor mentioned. Is it 50,60 or 70 percent?
Native 2000:1 is improvement for sure but I had hoped for 3000:1. However the improved native contrast will mean alot for 3LCD. Let us also hope the simultaneous contrast will be improved by D6.

As for new generation liquid crystalC 2FINE TM, the inorganic orientation membrane/no marry black*element life rapid by the fact that 1 is adopted improvement. High picture quality was maintained even in use of long haul, high contrast was actualized. In addition, real it is possible with the Kousei small panel of the 1920×1080 dot which is resolution of full HD, to reproduce hi-vision image.
Liquid crystal panel C2 FINETM


* 1 When applying voltage, because the liquid crystal molecule it lines up vertically vis-a-vis the glass baseplate, until recently like liquid crystal type, black is beautifully reproduced without light leaking.



Being expensive in order to show the resolution of full HD in perfection in comparison with the glass lens, the high performance the ED lens (ultralow dispersion) 3 it loads 14 group 17 constitution lenses which are included, chromatic aberration, has improved peripheral focusing substantially.
ED (ultralow dispersion) glass lens





As seen on the large picture which is force even at the small room, loading 1.6 time electromotive zoom/focusing. 100 inches (16: 9) The time projection distance was designated as 3.1m. In addition, putting in the various places of the room, in order to be able to adjust the picture, also up and down left and right lens shift made electromotion, improved installation characteristic substantially.
New optical engine



The hi-vision source the interlace signal of 1080i is the majority, but when it starts projecting to the liquid crystal projector, converting to 1080p being to start projecting picture quality changes largely (the fixed pixel element), with this IP conversion. In the knitting machine being loaded by the high ended AV equipment, between the specialist it loaded the up-to-date tip/chip ReonVX of the American シリコンオプティックス corporation make which has established reputation. In addition, also pixel conversion processing high accuracy has loaded the filter at the time of DVD playing back, the HQV noise reduction which assures the decrease of mosquito block noise is loaded and Takasina rank playback is actualized.
ReonVX



Actualizing the wonderful quiet sound characteristic, 19db the second look at cooling structure and with the adoption of the noise fan low.


Loading the automatic iris by Mitsubishi individual contraction form. It can reproduce vividly without lust information with the dark scene being buried by the individual algorithm which also detection of lust information makes possible in addition to the detection from former brightness information.


Automatic iris



With the optimum design, and Mitsubishi individual illumination timing of temperature control of the new color illuminant lamp, illuminant lamp period of use maximum of 5000 hours were actualized.
Long-life lamp

* The lamp it is low at the time of mode with maximum of 5000 hours standard mode maximum of 3000 hours.
* Until lamp life brightness reduces by half, it is mean time, it is not something which all lamp lives preservation is proven.
* Lamp life there are times when it fluctuates largely use environment, with the execution presence of maintenance such as condition, and presence of cleaning.



In order to prevent the adhesion of the dust to the liquid crystal panel, we load the dustproof measure cover onto liquid crystal block.
Dustproof measure cover


-C 2FINE TM is registered trade mark of the SEIKO Epson corporation. To top of this page -

translated but pics didnt come through. looks good -- now lets see what panny and sanyo can do--- P.S. When street price hits you guys may have to join us in the lowly under 3500 heck in a couple of years maybe we wont need the over 3500 forum--- :) nice jeff

How reliable is this site for early information like this?

If this is all accurate, I am going to start getting my hopes up for this one.

How reliable is this site for early information like this?


This site is very reliable for coming out with information like this... some of it may even be true! :p

Your experience with LCDs is not typical. The general perception that LCD panels and polarizers are prone to failure is based on a study commissioned by Texas Instruments in which cherry picked portable LCD projectors were run 24/7 under unusual conditions. Under those circumstances, some of the LCDs experienced failures as early as about 1,500 hours. The dlps did not similarly fail.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/lcd_dlp_test.htm

The study stands for no more than that portable projectors should not be run under those extremes.

Still, certain models could be prone to heat-related issues if they do not properly circulate air. I am the owner of a Hitachi 50V500 LCD projection TV that has a notorious problem causing heat-related picture degradation requiring light engine replacement. The replacement light engines have improved cooling in them.

There are reasons not to choose a LCD. In my opinion, this is not one of them.

I think you are leaving the wrong impression. I have seen LCD projectors that were only used once a week in a church, with only 400 hours total usage, with severe degradation. Over the years on this forum people have reported severe yellowing in as few as 800 hours.

"
I think you are leaving the wrong impression. I have seen LCD projectors that were only used once a week in a church, with only 400 hours total usage, with severe degradation. Over the years on this forum people have reported severe yellowing in as few as 800 hours. "

wrong thread but supposedly c2fine panels are more "robust" because of the inorganic layer versus the older style organic layer used in d5 and d6 and are much much less prone to failure from over exposure to heat and light. someone chime in and correct me if im wrong?? plus a church projector or something used in that size forum must have a very bright light source. One which would probably spend up the time of panel failure. Were really arent using these kinds of pj in our den (or at least im not) they just dont have to be "as" bright-- jeff

Anyone notice here

http://www.hcinema.de/pro/anzeigen.php?angabe=mitsubishihc5000

That it only accepts 1080i not 1080p (if that matters...Ive heard arguments both ways).

Detail as to which signals are accepted are not always correct or complete. I still think it will accept 1080p but it might not.

Anyone notice here

http://www.hcinema.de/pro/anzeigen.php?angabe=mitsubishihc5000

That it only accepts 1080i not 1080p (if that matters...Ive heard arguments both ways).

Only a 160 watt lamp? They should have used a 250 to 300 watt lamp. Lumen output is disappointing. :(

IB

Brightness (lm) * 2 = 1000
Electric power consumption = (W) 250 (when waiting 7W)
Zoom/focusing operation = 1.6 time zoom electromotion
Lens shift = electromotive top and bottom 75% left and right 5%

Video = NTSC, NTSC4.43 and PAL (PAL-M and N it includes), SECAM, PAL-60 and HDTV (480i/p, 576i/ p, 1080i/ p and 720p)



http://www.mitsubishielectric.co.jp/projector/home/index.html

I didn't see it posted yet, but this (http://global.mitsubishielectric.com/bu/projectors/products/homeuse/hc5000/index_b.html) all looks pretty darned official to me! :D

Jon

That looks pretty official to me to...guess this is one to seek out at CEDIA! If the price is as rumored...Panasonic and Sanyo will have to come out with something pretty exciting to compete. This is going to be a great fall :)

It's interesting that several folks (frank, I think?) had said that there was no way we were getting C2Fine this year. Looks like that was wrong. I wonder if this lends any hope that Panasonic could have a 1080p C2fine as well? Surely they didn't let Mits beat them to the punch.

Wow, I'm liking the specs! Can somebody post a link or info about what the greatness is about the C2Fine? I know it's supposed to keep the blacks blacker (contrast), but does somebody have some specs or a real-world comparison?

This projector's definitely on the very short list of 1080P to replace my PLV-Z3, the specs are very very close, so replacement won't be a hassle as far as positioning/etc.

Mitsubishi is getting C2Fine ahead of the competition. Do not expect others with C2Fine this year. That is what I have read.

Mitsubishi is getting C2Fine ahead of the competition. Do not expect others with C2Fine this year. That is what I have read.
Alright, I'm not a fanboy of any company, whoever brings the goods gets my $$.

From that link, if I'm reading the calculators correctly, it looks like for my 106" screen, I can put that pj anywhere from 10.8'-17' from the screen, and that I can have it mounted up to 13 inches above the screen (which I only need a couple).

Can anyone tell where the intake/exhaust vents are on that thing? And will we have to flip it upside down to mount above the screen or can I put it on a shelf right side up?

I think this will be my next pj. Who's gonna sell it?

Definitely left side (looking from back, the lense-side) entry, due to the filter that's in place on that large grill. Nothing to mention on the back except for a very small exit, so you're looking at a right-side exit, or maybe a bottom exit, which is doubtful. Perfect for rear shelf and ceiling mount.

Will C2fine completely eliminate VB?

Alright, I'm not a fanboy of any company, whoever brings the goods gets my $$.

From that link, if I'm reading the calculators correctly, it looks like for my 106" screen, I can put that pj anywhere from 10.8'-17' from the screen, and that I can have it mounted up to 13 inches above the screen (which I only need a couple).

Can anyone tell where the intake/exhaust vents are on that thing? And will we have to flip it upside down to mount above the screen or can I put it on a shelf right side up?

I think this will be my next pj. Who's gonna sell it?
This might be my next projector too. Unless something comparable shows at CEDIA. Looks promising. Haven't owned a Mitsubishi big screen since the early days (1980's) of rear projection T.V.

I've always heard good things about Mits displays, just never had a chance to own one (not a fan of gigantic RPTVs). Unless Panny/Sanny come out with a 1080p lcd this year, I'll buy this one. Pearl will be too big, too awkward for my setup, plus I can save a little money.

So who sells Mits pj's? AVS? Any sponsors?

My local high end dealer will be able to get them. He mentioned to me Saturday that Mits has been a pleasure to deal with - much better for him that Sanyo which I had inquired about him getting last year. Hopefully the availability on this unit will be good.

Jason was able to get another Mitsubishi to review this summer, one of the brighter DLP's, so I have to imagine that if this unit is the major player we think it'll be AVS will carry them.

For what its worth I am also hearing that the Mitsubishi will be the only one with the C2F system this year...I find it surprising though that Epson won't have an offering...it is their technology afterall. CEDIA will tell us...1 month :)

I've always heard good things about Mits displays

My "other" HDTV is a 5 year old CRT-based RPTV, and that thing is a tank! it's just plugged into a surge protector, and it's lived through our weird weather down on the gulf coast and several hurricanes, and we've been very pleased with it's performance. It's OLD now tho, the thing only have one set of components that do 1080i, the other sets only do 480p :)

I'd certainly be happy to own another Mitsubishi.

I find it surprising though that Epson won't have an offering...it is their technology afterall.

Not really. They usually let their 'clients' (Panasonic, Sanyo, Hitachi) market projectors using Epson panels months before they launch their own (and usually more expensive) models.

Dust protection for the LCD panel
To prevent dust from adhering to the LCD panel, the LCD block is equipped with a dust protection cover.

Aah. Music to a PLV70 owner's ears.

So it's only 1000 lumens?

BB

Aah. Music to a PLV70 owner's ears.

So it's only 1000 lumens?

BB

I must say, I do like how they explicitly post that 1000 is the marketing spec. They're refreshingly candid about that:

Brightness: 1000 lumens (Marketing Spec) Min : 700lm 750 lumens (Low Mode)

I hope that means that calibrated for best CR, it has 700lm on a new bulb.

They jumped right in last year with the new D5 panels so I thought maybe...

5000 hour lamp sounds good, too.

Unless the HC5000 somehow throws a crap image compared to the HD81 and "Pearl" it looks to me like Mitsubishi has hit the ball out of the park with this one! I mean sure, native 2000:1 panel contrast isn't as high as either DLP DC3 or SXRD and the inter-pixel gap is sure to still be larger with LCD and response time won't be as fast as SXRD either, but just look at the quality of something like the Sony HS-51A using "old" LCD technology! Now improve every aspect of that picture: resolution, contrast, fill-ractor and response time. Sure it may still not fully spec up to the DLP DC3 and SXRD units, but it's a heck of a lot closer than the gap between LCD and DLP/SXRD used to be!

So now the gap in specs is much smaller, but LCD retains all of its other benefits: vertical and horizontal lens shift, longer zoom range, lower price. Throw in what seems to be a highly competent video processor in the HQV Reon VX along with top quality optics and Mitsubishi's very good reputation for dealer and customer service alike, then add on top of that a 3000-5000 lamp life, the lowest fan noise ever and a reputation for reliability and good warranty service to boot? And all in a 6 kg handy little package with power controls for lens shift, zoom and focus.

I'm drooling....I just don't see anything not to like!

Jon

The only other thing I would like (for my set-up) would be a 2X Zoom lens (eg: Panny 700, 900). But I can live w/ 1.6; just have to move the projector forward approx. 3 feet. Which would then put it directly over my head. I still prefer it slightly behind me.

"Will C2fine completely eliminate VB?"

No, nor even improve it AFAIK.

I have to echo Jon's sentiment...given that family members are extremly sensitive to rainbows, even if its an incremental improvement in performance over this years LCD's + resolution, this is one exciting projector. Now we just need a US MSRP.

"Will C2fine completely eliminate VB?"

No, nor even improve it AFAIK.

Cine4home's Ekkehart said on post #18 of this thread:

Vertical Banding was mainly due to the organic panels, the new ones are vertically aligned / anorganic.. like SXRD / D-ILA... so no big problems to expect anymore ;-)

I have to echo Jon's sentiment...given that family members are extremly sensitive to rainbows, even if its an incremental improvement in performance over this years LCD's + resolution, this is one exciting projector. Now we just need a US MSRP.

Ditto.

It's like Mitsubishi stole my wishlist.
The two things I really like is the quality optical path and the HQV processing. The later being VERY significant for me. I was considering getting an outboard processor and I much prefer not having to do so. It certainly increase the "value" factor as far as I'm concerned. It's also nice to hear they're a good company to deal with.

I am curious, has anyone seen this Reon in action? It is a lower cost and performance chip compared to the Realta.

I wonder if the Mitsubishi will be that much better than the Panny 1100.

Ericglo

Well,

This puppy is for real.

After thinking about it for about five seconds. I decided I would go ahead and pre-order one of these units. I contacted the guy I bought my first projector from, and subsequent other items, because he's a Mitsubishi dealer up here in Canada. (Great guy to deal with.)
The unit is for real and should be in available Canada around November. He took my pre-order so I should be close to first in line.
He's not sure what the price is going to be yet, but he thinks the rumored pricing is in the ballpark. I'll just send him a whack of money each pay-day until the unit arrives, it'll lessen the hurt a little at impact. (I'll be eating at home a bit more over the next few months!!!)

Can't wait for November now!!!

I am curious, has anyone seen this Reon in action? It is a lower cost and performance chip compared to the Realta.

I wonder if the Mitsubishi will be that much better than the Panny 1100.

Ericglo

If it's like Ohlson suggests and Mits is the only one with the C2fine for this cycle then probably not, on top of that if Panny continues to use the smooth-screen technology, I would think the Mits with it's higher quality lenses would have a much sharper image without visible SDE from a reasonable viewing distance.

If it's like Ohlson suggests and Mits is the only one with the C2fine for this cycle then probably not, on top of that if Panny continues to use the smooth-screen technology, I would think the Mits with it's higher quality lenses would have a much sharper image without visible SDE from a reasonable viewing distance.


The thing is no one knows the whole story till Cedia. Hence my often refrain -"Wait till Cedia". You have no idea of everything that will be there. What if the Pearl comes in at a street of $4k? What if the Cinetron comes in at $4k from Pearl pressure? The Cinetron is LCOS and has a Realta (Reon's big brother). What if someone shows up with a 1080p DLP that streets at under $5k? My point is that people should get excited before Cedia, but temper that excitement till after Cedia. You never know when some manufacturer comes out of left field to surprise you.:)

Ericglo

Anyone know if the REON allows for aspect control?
ted want vertical stretch. Go CH 2.35 or go home. :p

ted

The thing is no one knows the whole story till Cedia. Hence my often refrain -"Wait till Cedia". You have no idea of everything that will be there. What if the Pearl comes in at a street of $4k? What if the Cinetron comes in at $4k from Pearl pressure? The Cinetron is LCOS and has a Realta (Reon's big brother). What if someone shows up with a 1080p DLP that streets at under $5k? My point is that people should get excited before Cedia, but temper that excitement till after Cedia. You never know when some manufacturer comes out of left field to surprise you.:)

Ericglo

I hear you, but I'm not a "videophile" and like I said in an earlier post this unit hits all my buttons and if someone comes out with a better product I will still be very satisfied with the Mits - unless of course there's a better product that comes out for much cheaper which I doubt in the under $5k range - at least for a while.

It does almost seem too good to be true - C2Fine - HQV - quality optics - dynamic iris - and 19db!!! But my guy says it's the real deal so I'm willing to be a guinny pig. I'll find out if it's a bad choice when it gets here in November I guess.

I am curious, has anyone seen this Reon in action? It is a lower cost and performance chip compared to the Realta.

I wonder if the Mitsubishi will be that much better than the Panny 1100.

Ericglo
If the Panny is still using the D5 panels, then the Mits certainly should be significantly better. Else we've all been waiting for C2F for no reason.

Anyone know if the REON allows for aspect control?
ted want vertical stretch. Go CH 2.35 or go home. :p I've read that it surely is capable of doing this, but it's a different story if Mitsubishi guys decided to use this feature. And if they use vertical stretching, which resolutions does it work with? Like, can 1080p displayed only 1:1, or can it be also stretched.

If the Panny is still using the D5 panels, then the Mits certainly should be significantly better. Else we've all been waiting for C2F for no reason.

Did I miss something? Are there two different 1080p LCD panels coming out? I was guessing that the 1080p LCDs from Panasonic, Sanyo, and Mitsubishi were going to be the same.

Ericglo

I thought the same thing as well, but unless he's yanking our chain, "Ohlson" said that the Mits is going to be the only one to come out with the C2fine panels this cycle & that's not the first time I read it.
I've got no idea what 1080p from D5 panels will look like, but my main beef with my LCD is SDE and it's supposed to be virtually eliminated with the C2 fine. I've got a slight problem with seeing RBE and I'm not comfortable with the concept of a mechanical spinning wheel as part of the image creating path so DLP wasn't high on my list. As soon as I found out this PJ was indeed what they said it was, it became a no-brainer for me to pre-order it.

Found this (http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/08/mitsubishi_hc50.html#more) site with a guy claiming a MSRP of $4495 directly from Mitsubishi reps. With a MSRP like that, the street price will probably not be much lower than $4000. It also makes the price high enough that direct comparisons to the "Pearl" or even HD81 may be in order.

So a little higher than anticipated, but still, if $4495 is the real MSRP that's still a 1080p front projector that is clearly going to sell for under $5000 by the end of 2006! I really wasn't expecting any MSRP's on 1080p front projectors to be under $7000 until about this time in 2007! So I'm personally still happy, although it casts a little more doubt for me as my budget is comfortable at $3500, but starts to really get stretched when I go over that by too much :(

So personally I'll wait to hear just how good the picture is and how much it'll street for. Otherwise a high quality 720p unit like the BenQ 8720 may still be the better choice for me.

Jon

"Cine4home's Ekkehart said on post #18 of this thread:

Vertical Banding was mainly due to the organic panels, the new ones are vertically aligned / anorganic.. like SXRD / D-ILA... so no big problems to expect anymore ;-)"

My mistake, for some reason I read VB as SD.

"my main beef with my LCD is SDE and it's supposed to be virtually eliminated with the C2 fine."

Thanks for making my mistaken assertion relevant :)

I thought the same thing as well, but unless he's yanking our chain, "Ohlson" said that the Mits is going to be the only one to come out with the C2fine panels this cycle & that's not the first time I read it.
I've got no idea what 1080p from D5 panels will look like, but my main beef with my LCD is SDE and it's supposed to be virtually eliminated with the C2 fine. I've got a slight problem with seeing RBE and I'm not comfortable with the concept of a mechanical spinning wheel as part of the image creating path so DLP wasn't high on my list. As soon as I found out this PJ was indeed what they said it was, it became a no-brainer for me to pre-order it.

The Cine4home site also has some write up about the upcoming Sanyo Z5 which still remains as a 720p projector. Hence, this may be further proof that Mits may have undertaken an exclusive allocation of the D6 panels from Epson at least until next year.

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/SanyoZ5Preview/Z5Preview.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMItsubishi%2BLVP-HC5000%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26newwindow%3D1%26sa%3DG

Found this (http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/08/mitsubishi_hc50.html#more) site with a guy claiming a MSRP of $4495 directly from Mitsubishi reps. With a MSRP like that, the street price will probably not be much lower than $4000. It also makes the price high enough that direct comparisons to the "Pearl" or even HD81 may be in order.

So a little higher than anticipated, but still, if $4495 is the real MSRP that's still a 1080p front projector that is clearly going to sell for under $5000 by the end of 2006! I really wasn't expecting any MSRP's on 1080p front projectors to be under $7000 until about this time in 2007! So I'm personally still happy, although it casts a little more doubt for me as my budget is comfortable at $3500, but starts to really get stretched when I go over that by too much :(

So personally I'll wait to hear just how good the picture is and how much it'll street for. Otherwise a high quality 720p unit like the BenQ 8720 may still be the better choice for me.

Jon

I think you're right on the money with the $4K + street price. But you're sure getting a lot for that dough including a 5000hr bulb which increases the value IMO.
They really did their homework on this unit so I can't see them missing the boat on the most important thing, namely picture quality.

My mistake, for some reason I read VB as SD.

"my main beef with my LCD is SDE and it's supposed to be virtually eliminated with the C2 fine."

Thanks for making my mistaken assertion relevant :)

You're welcome....I think.... ;)

Like I said I'm no videophile. But am I not correct in the assumption that the increased fill factor of the C2 Fine panels will result in taking the SDE out of the equation from inside 1.25 X screen width or less? (Which I think very few people would be inside of in most cases.)

ok

I'm not sure if this is here yet, but HomeTheaterBlog is reporting MSRP of: $4495
http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/08/mitsubishi_hc50.html#more

Is it not wierd that Mit is coming out with a LCD.I allways thought most companies either did lcd or dlp.Not both.I think Mit watch panny and sanyo sell so many more LCD'S than their DLP that they wanted onboard.I think mit lossed alot of sells with their hc3000 due to it not having len shift.I know the guys at BB said many people wanted the hc3000 but brought them back due to lack of lens shift.BUDDA

The Cine4home site also has some write up about the upcoming Sanyo Z5 which still remains as a 720p projector. Hence, this may be further proof that Mits may have undertaken an exclusive allocation of the D6 panels from Epson at least until next year.

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/SanyoZ5Preview/Z5Preview.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMItsubishi%2BLVP-HC5000%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26newwindow%3D1%26sa%3DG
Re: Sanyo Z5. Why would anyone even consider a 720P projector at this time w/ all the 1080 HD-DVD and Blu-Ray media out and arriving daily? I know cost is the main factor - but seems like they would never be happy knowing from the get go that they are compromising their image quality on every title they watch (like I am w/ my Panny 900). Everytime I watch a movie I wonder how much better it would be in 1080.

Re: Sanyo Z5. Why would anyone even consider a 720P projector at this time w/ all the 1080 HD-DVD and Blu-Ray media out and arriving daily? I know cost is the main factor - but seems like they would never be happy knowing from the get go that they are compromising their image quality on every title they watch (like I am w/ my Panny 900). Everytime I watch a movie I wonder how much better it would be in 1080.

Ditto. I have my name on the waiting list for the Mitsubishi 5000 at the same store in Akihabara that I bought my Sanyo Z2. The upgrade bug has been gnawing at me for a while now, but I've been holding out for a reasonably priced (under $4,000) 1080p projector. This Mitsubishi seems to have everything I've been looking for in the way of features at a price that's actually quite a bit lower than I was prepared to spend. Having lived with the Z2 for almost 3 years, I can't imagine not having lens shift, so the Mits works out fine. The timing is perfect too. At 3,000 hours+, my Z2 is starting to show signs of the dreaded "blue polarizer" problem. I can ignore it for the next two months until the 5000 is available. Although I may actually have to wait longer than that depending on where I am on the waiting list. Initially, I was reluctant to go the LCD route again because of my recent experience with the Z2, but if the C2Fine panels are as robust as they're advertising, I'm willing to give LCD another try. I was also concerned that the throw would be too long for my needs since I'm moving to a slightly smaller apartment soon. But the promotional material here just confirmed that it can handle a 100" screen in a 6-mat room, so it should be a perfect fit. I can't wait to see what HD-DVD or Blu-ray looks like on this thing. It's going to be an exciting holiday season indeed.

Is it not wierd that Mit is coming out with a LCD.I allways thought most companies either did lcd or dlp.Not both.I think Mit watch panny and sanyo sell so many more LCD'S than their DLP that they wanted onboard.I think mit lossed alot of sells with their hc3000 due to it not having len shift.I know the guys at BB said many people wanted the hc3000 but brought them back due to lack of lens shift.BUDDA

Personally I'm happy no matter what their reasoning is. I was aksing the guy I ordered my HC5000 from about the Benq 8720 and the Epson Cinema 800 a few months back and he tried to steer me towards the HC3000 saying it was one of the best PJ's he's seen and that it was very close to the 8720 in PQ but almost half the price. The the lack of lens-shift took it out of the equation for me though, so I'm one of those guys too. (Turns out that was a good thing- a couple more months and I'll have exactly what I want from a PJ.)
The other reason might simply be that with the C2 Fine panels they can get close to DLP black levels and CR and still provide some of the best features like motorized lens shift in this magical price-point, which they might not be able to do with a DLP based unit with a 1080p resolution.

"But am I not correct in the assumption that the increased fill factor of the C2 Fine panels will result in taking the SDE out of the equation from inside 1.25 X screen width or less?"

Increased compared to what is the question. IIRC 720P C2Fine was going to have about 10% higher fill factor (55% vs 50%) than D5, but 1080P was going to be less than D5.

In any case, IMO the increased pixel count is a much more important factor.

"Why would anyone even consider a 720P projector at this time w/ all the 1080 HD-DVD and Blu-Ray media out and arriving daily?"

As you said, cost, and unless they're going to sit closer than 1.7 SW, they'll likely not even see the increased res.

I think you're right on the money with the $4K + street price. But you're sure getting a lot for that dough including a 5000hr bulb which increases the value IMO.
They really did their homework on this unit so I can't see them missing the boat on the most important thing, namely picture quality.

We all know those bulb ratings can not be trusted. Only experience will tell us how long the bulb will really last.

As you said, cost, and unless they're going to sit closer than 1.7 SW, they'll likely not even see the increased res.

I don't know. I sit at about 1.7 and I can occasionally see SDE with my 720p H78. When i use my H600 lens and expand to 2.35:1 (about 1.4x width then) I can certainly notice SDE then. So if I can sometimes make out SDE at that distance I think I would certainly notice the difference in resolution. My guess is that up to about 2.5x width you would be able to see the increased resolution even if you can't make out the screen door. IMHO of course.

I'm at 1.7 as well and with my Cinema 500 SDE is definately in play. I most likely would see an improvement even going to the D5 panels, but in Epsons' own words the C2 Fine will also add;

"Key points of improved picture quality with inorganic alignment technology
1. Vastly improved contrast (several times existing levels);
2. Superb alignment;
3. Enhanced reproduction of dark colours (capable of reproducing jet black)"

"We all know those bulb ratings can not be trusted. Only experience will tell us how long the bulb will really last"

You mean they would actually fudge the numbers??? THOSE BAS---DS!!! ;)

But really I doubt that Mits would risk putting out numbers that high and not at least be in the ballpark. That would make them look like fools IMO.

Found this (http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/08/mitsubishi_hc50.html#more) site with ...
That site mentions 3LCD technology and links to 3LCD.com, but that just sounds like regular old 3 panel LCD technology, no mention of C2Fine. I'm not saying it's not there, but weird that the article didn't mention the feature that's probably just as important as 1080p.

It will also be interesting to see how the HC5000 vs. Pearl fight works out.
$4495 MSRP vs. $5499 MSRP ($4999 MAP).

Personally, I'm speculating that the images will be very comparable and the Mits will be much more flexible for setup and potentially less costly to maintain if the bulb life is accurate. I've heard reports of $500 bulbs for the Pearl.

I was all set to buy the Pearl until I realized it would entail completly re-mounting a pj and moving it out into my room to get the best image. But I can set the HC5000 right on my shelf in place of my Panny 500.

I can't wait to find out what kind of image the HC5000 throws.

That site mentions 3LCD technology and links to 3LCD.com, but that just sounds like regular old 3 panel LCD technology, no mention of C2Fine. I'm not saying it's not there, but weird that the article didn't mention the feature that's probably just as important as 1080p.

.

The Mit's (http://global.mitsubishielectric.com/bu/projectors/products/homeuse/hc5000/index_b.html) website indicates C2 Fine.

Does anyone know if a shelf mount requires this pj to be upside down, or can it stay in normal orientation on its feet.

Does anyone know if a shelf mount requires this pj to be upside down, or can it stay in normal orientation on its feet.

cine4home indicates 25% up or down.

Actually this is backed up on the Mitsubshi site.

Hmm, this projector uses a long throw lens unlike the previous crop of D5 projectors. :eek:

But I suppose it'll make a fine replacement for my Epson TW600.

Are we finally going to see real blacks on LCD projectors? ;)

The Mit's (http://global.mitsubishielectric.com/bu/projectors/products/homeuse/hc5000/index_b.html) website indicates C2 Fine.
I know. Just weird that the guy omitted such a huge detail.

Anybody have a guess as to how D6 C2Fine will compare with SXRD?

Personally I'm happy no matter what their reasoning is. I was aksing the guy I ordered my HC5000 from about the Benq 8720 and the Epson Cinema 800 a few months back and he tried to steer me towards the HC3000 saying it was one of the best PJ's he's seen and that it was very close to the 8720 in PQ but almost half the price. The the lack of lens-shift took it out of the equation for me though, so I'm one of those guys too. (Turns out that was a good thing- a couple more months and I'll have exactly what I want from a PJ.)
The other reason might simply be that with the C2 Fine panels they can get close to DLP black levels and CR and still provide some of the best features like motorized lens shift in this magical price-point, which they might not be able to do with a DLP based unit with a 1080p resolution.

Good points.This mit hc5000 has moved to the front of my list for 1080p FP.I am glad it has some throw and len shift.Can't wait for some real reviews of it.Wish i could fly to Denver for the show'but will to busy at work.Have to make some cash to pay for these new toys.I wonder if BB will carry it since they carried the hc3000.Might be to highend for them.BUDDA :)

Will the HQV Reon chip be able to scale DVD's to 1080p just like the Denon 5910 and the upcoming Denon 3930 and 2930? The latter has the same chip built-in for scaling?

That would be a huge gain, to avoid buying a new dvd player, regarding upscaling of old dvds!

Will the HQV Reon chip be able to scale DVD's to 1080p just like the Denon 5910 and the upcoming Denon 3930 and 2930? The latter has the same chip built-in for scaling?

That would be a huge gain, to avoid buying a new dvd player, regarding upscaling of old dvds!

Go here, post #25;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=714828

I hope Mitsubishi has this projector displayed in a nice set up at Cedia, because I really want to see this pj in action. The more I read about the HC5000, the more interested I get.

Will the HQV Reon chip be able to scale DVD's to 1080p just like the Denon 5910 and the upcoming Denon 3930 and 2930? The latter has the same chip built-in for scaling?

That would be a huge gain, to avoid buying a new dvd player, regarding upscaling of old dvds!

Any 1080p PJ should be able to scale all progressive sources to 1080p decently well. It's the deinterlacing thats hard. For film based DVD any good progressive scan DVD player with 3:2 pulldown and a digital output should do fine. The state of the art video processors add value in two areas:

1) Motion adaptive deinterlacing of video based sources including 1080i video.

2) Inverse telecine (3:2 pulldown) of 1080i film based sources like HD-DVD.

Number two will become much less important once we have proper progressive scan HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players.

Any 1080p PJ should be able to scale all progressive sources to 1080p decently well. It's the deinterlacing thats hard. For film based DVD any good progressive scan DVD player with 3:2 pulldown and a digital output should do fine. The state of the art video processors add value in two areas:

1) Motion adaptive deinterlacing of video based sources including 1080i video.

2) Inverse telecine (3:2 pulldown) of 1080i film based sources like HD-DVD.

Number two will become much less important once we have proper progressive scan HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players.

Adding to that last comment: #2 only becomes less important IF the progessive scan player actually has a good output path for video -- I think that's what you mean by 'proper'. For example, the samsung BD player is progressive scan, but it apears to do this by decoding to 1080i60, then de-interlacing to 1080p60, without doing an inverse telecine operation.

Will the hc 5000 be able to do all the streching or zoom in all modes for CH 2.35 setup's THANKS BUDDA

Unless the HC5000 somehow throws a crap image compared to the HD81 and "Pearl" it looks to me like Mitsubishi has hit the ball out of the park with this one! I mean sure, native 2000:1 panel contrast isn't as high as either DLP DC3 or SXRD and the inter-pixel gap is sure to still be larger with LCD and response time won't be as fast as SXRD either, but just look at the quality of something like the Sony HS-51A using "old" LCD technology! Now improve every aspect of that picture: resolution, contrast, fill-ractor and response time. Sure it may still not fully spec up to the DLP DC3 and SXRD units, but it's a heck of a lot closer than the gap between LCD and DLP/SXRD used to be!

So now the gap in specs is much smaller, but LCD retains all of its other benefits: vertical and horizontal lens shift, longer zoom range, lower price. Throw in what seems to be a highly competent video processor in the HQV Reon VX along with top quality optics and Mitsubishi's very good reputation for dealer and customer service alike, then add on top of that a 3000-5000 lamp life, the lowest fan noise ever and a reputation for reliability and good warranty service to boot? And all in a 6 kg handy little package with power controls for lens shift, zoom and focus.

I'm drooling....I just don't see anything not to like!

JonI agree. The horizontal lens shift is only 5%, but that's fine. I'm currently using a Mits HC3 as my backup PJ (dead lamp in my MT700) and it throws a nice picture (after calibration, it's still too bright on my 106" Da-Lite HP screen - I'm using a ND2 filter to cut the lumens). Even with only an advertized 800:1 CR, it has a decent PQ. I would love to get their HC3100, but the offset just kills it for me. I just hope the HC5000 has a reasonable MSRP & street price (I'm a <$3500 guy, but followed a link to this thread).

Using a Silicon Optix HQV processing chip will really help getting a good 1080p conversion for older DVD sources (as well as with the new HD-DVD/Blu-ray players).

Did a quick scan here and I didn't see my question answered already

http://global.mitsubishielectric.com/bu/projectors/products/homeuse/hc5000/spec_b.html

The element life of the next-generation C2 Fine™ LCD panel has been markedly extended by using an inorganic alignment layer/ normally black mode*. Even after long hours of use, high picture quality is maintained with high contrast. This 1920 x 1080 dot full-HD resolution LCD panel can reproduce images of true high-definition quality.
C2 FINE™ LCD panel Now if I remember the pitch I got in Jan during CES, isn't normally black mode supposed to be the super duper thing for LCD that improves on the interpixel spaces and really improves the black levels?

How much is this "normally black mode" a really big deal for LCD and can someone explain the significance to me?
* 1 When applying voltage, because the liquid crystal molecule it lines up vertically vis-a-vis the glass baseplate, until recently like liquid crystal type, black is beautifully reproduced without light leaking. http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060822/mitsu1m1.jpg

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060822/mitsu1m5.jpg

My local dealer high end installer/dealer is going to Cedia with me.

He plans to stock this beast immediately with availability late September early October!

Kosty-
Are those images are supposed to represent a single pixel with C2Fine? If so, it sounds like the LCDs might also be improved in an area we haven't discussed yet... ansi contrast.

If there is better single pixel black control, that should theoretically result in better ansi contrast. That would be a huge gain as low ansi is probably one of the major factors for the "wash out" look LCDs can have. When Epson was originally talking about CR being boosted by a factor of 10 with C2Fine, maybe they were talking about ansi? 2000:1 on/off CR and 500:1 ansi CR would put them on equal footing with DLPs!

Just a theory...
-Matt

Kosty-
Are those images are supposed to represent a single pixel with C2Fine? If so, it sounds like the LCDs might also be improved in an area we haven't discussed yet... ansi contrast.

If there is better single pixel black control, that should theoretically result in better ansi contrast. That would be a huge gain as low ansi is probably one of the major factors for the "wash out" look LCDs can have. When Epson was originally talking about CR being boosted by a factor of 10 with C2Fine, maybe they were talking about ansi? 2000:1 on/off CR and 500:1 ansi CR would put them on equal footing with DLPs!

Just a theory...
-Matt

Well now that's an interesting thought, and would make this projector even more appealing.

Kosty-
Are those images are supposed to represent a single pixel with C2Fine? If so, it sounds like the LCDs might also be improved in an area we haven't discussed yet... ansi contrast.Just a theory...
-Matt
C2Fine and Bi:NA6 (Sony's version) appear to be implementations of VAN (vertically aligned nematic) LCD technology already used in SXRD ,DILA, and other LCOS technologies. We have not seen 500:1 ANSI CR from LCOS implementations so it is unlikely we will see that based solely on just VAN.

My local dealer high end installer/dealer is going to Cedia with me.

He plans to stock this beast immediately with availability late September early October!

This thing is going to sell huge. The guy I ordered it form said he's getting a whack of them also.

I'm not familiar with what ansi contrast is as opposed to native contrast, or how it relates to the final image, maybe someone can enlighten me.

This thing is going to sell huge. The guy I ordered it form said he's getting a whack of them also.

I'm not familiar with what ansi contrast is as opposed to native contrast, or how it relates to the final image, maybe someone can enlighten me.

I'll take a shot at this, and if anything I say is incorrect one of our more knowledgeable posters can correct me.

ANSI contrast is the difference between the whitest white and the blackest black that can exist on the screen at the same time.

on/off contrast is the difference between the whitest white and the blackest black that the display device is capable of producing.

Can anyone comment on whether or not C2Fine will indeed improve the ANSI contrast of LCD? Not necessarily to DLP levels, but some sort of improvement? The flat, 2 dimensional look of LCD has always been one of the things that has turned me off to this technology, althoug I suspect this is related to on/off contrast as much as anything.

C2Fine and Bi:NA6 (Sony's version) appear to be implementations of VAN (vertically aligned nematic) LCD technology already used in SXRD ,DILA, and other LCOS technologies. We have not seen 500:1 ANSI CR from LCOS implementations so it is unlikely we will see that based solely on just VAN.
True, but those are reflective technologies instead of transmissive... that might lead to a difference in results at the screen. Then again it could be better or it could be worse. ;)

What is the ansi CR for the ruby? I seem to remember something like 250:1 or so? With the older LCDs and LCOS being about 100:1? That is totally from memory so I'm sure I'm wrong...
-Matt


=================EDIT==================

Nevermind, I just saw this post you made in another thread. Regardlesss, it will be interesting to see how C2Fine affects ansi CR in LCDs...

ANSI CR is much more sensitive to the room than On/Off. A light controlled room will get you the speced on/off, walls and ceilings can wreck havoc on ANSI CR. IIRC a reviewer on this forum measured a Sony HS51 LCD and a Sharp 2000 DLP and got an identical 102:1 ANSI in his light controlled room!

If you want the highest ANSI CR get a plasma or LCD flat panel, they can be > 900:1 ANSI

Most good DLPs are > 500:1 ANSI CR

SXRDs are between 200 and 300:1 ANSI CR

LCDs are > 200:1

The best LC CRTs are ~ 120:1 ANSI CR

gregr of WSR measured the JVC HD2k LCOS at only 60:1

Non LC CRTS can be < 50:1 ANSI CR

This thing is going to sell huge. The guy I ordered it form said he's getting a whack of them also.

I'm not familiar with what ansi contrast is as opposed to native contrast, or how it relates to the final image, maybe someone can enlighten me.

Wait, you are saying that this is a great pj, but you don't understand what ANSI is. Read Displaymate Shootout (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1752639,00.asp) followed by Darinp2's contrast article at Secrets (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/feature-article-contrast-ratio-5-2006-part-1.html).

Ericglo

Guys,

I know that this is asking someone to answer by pure speculation alone, however until the PJ actually comes out, and hands on reviews are in, I guess it is all speculation based on released info so here goes.

I have been considering the Epson 550 for quite a while and even possibly the 800 since prices for 720p projectors are starting to fall how do you think this PJ (the Mits) would stack up to the two Epsons? I know that 1080p brings a lot to the table and is a big step up but what else would make the Mits head and shoulders above the 550 and 800?

I am actually glad that I have had to delay my basement HT now for about 5 months. Has put me in a position to wait until after CEDIA to see what hits the market. I was very sure that I was going to get one of the two Epson but since this Mits has cropped up I may very well change my short list to this PJ.

What do you all think?

Regards,

RTROSE

The HC5000 will cost considerably more than the current generation of 720p PJs, but it does have a number of things in its favour:

1) Hugely improved native contrast.
2) No more vertical banding.
3) No fading/discolouring of the panels over time.
4) Will accept 1080p - hopefully meaning that could be your last upgrade for some time.
5) Reon VX based HD processing, so hopefully no outboard video processor needed (at least not in the short term).

Wait, you are saying that this is a great pj, but you don't understand what ANSI is. Read Displaymate Shootout (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,1752639,00.asp) followed by Darinp2's contrast article at Secrets (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/feature-article-contrast-ratio-5-2006-part-1.html).

Ericglo

Thanks for the link.

And for the record, I never said it was a "great PJ" in comparison to others, how would I know whithout having seen it?

To paraphrase; I said it meets all my needs & wants and will be a HUGE improvement over my current PJ at a price that's in my wheelhouse. This is an absolute no-brainer for me unless it turns out to be a total lemon, but Mits doesn't have any history that I'm aware of for putting out crap.

Kosty-
Are those images are supposed to represent a single pixel with C2Fine? If so, it sounds like the LCDs might also be improved in an area we haven't discussed yet... ansi contrast.

If there is better single pixel black control, that should theoretically result in better ansi contrast. That would be a huge gain as low ansi is probably one of the major factors for the "wash out" look LCDs can have. When Epson was originally talking about CR being boosted by a factor of 10 with C2Fine, maybe they were talking about ansi? 2000:1 on/off CR and 500:1 ansi CR would put them on equal footing with DLPs!

Just a theory...
-MattI don't know, but that's what I thought as well. That's why I posted it! :D

My understanding is that all previously LCOS or LCD technology didn't have this 'normally black mode" so there was some inter-pixel light leakage or some seapage actually through or reflected off the pixel itself.

The "normally black mode" does something to the crystal structure so that it aligns against the light path and blocks the light completely instead of partially.

That allows the pixels (or spaces) to be completely black instead of dark grey.

My understanding may be totally inaccurate. Maybe someone else can describe what it does, how it does it and has it been used before. I've been much more a DLP guy before.

At least some of the interpixel leakage of LCOS is because the LC film is continuous, but that probably doesn't extend far enough to affect ANSI contrast, where the squares are hundreds of pixels.

Why would Mitsubishi be the only ones getting C2Fine? Sanyo and Panny sold way more LCD projectors last year, so you would think they would get priority from Epson vs Epson trying to piss off they main customers.

jcg

Mitsubishi is getting C2Fine ahead of the competition. Do not expect others with C2Fine this year. That is what I have read.

Why would Mitsubishi be the only ones getting C2Fine? Sanyo and Panny sold way more LCD projectors last year, so you would think they would get priority from Epson vs Epson trying to piss off they main customers.

jcg
I agree, there is no reason why epson wouldn't at least put the technology in their own projectors to start off. I'm not understanding the marketing technics if what ohlson is sayings true, but then again we won't find out for sure until 9-14-06. :confused:

They did it last time with the D5 panels. Don't know why, but the 900 and Z4 came out way before the 550 and the 800.

if and only if mits is the only ones getting c2fine this round, im sure they paid a big chunk of money. maybe epson only has a limited amount of panels at this time and offered them to the highest bidder? sanyo and panny are about delivering a great pj for around 2000-3000 msrp and maybe they both didnt see it possible until the c2fine panel price goes down alittle bit?? who knows maybe panny is laughing reading these threads with a 2500$ 1080p c2fine pj in their warehouse and their waiting to drop the bomb..... i guess will find out whats "under the christmas tree" at cedia... cant wait!!!!! jeff

Help me out here guys. Does the diagram for vertical lens shift really indicate that there's no offset, meaning the projector has to be placed in the middle of the screen when lens shift is in neutral position? This would actually be a pretty good feature for my purpose.

At least some of the interpixel leakage of LCOS is because the LC film is continuous, but that probably doesn't extend far enough to affect ANSI contrast, where the squares are hundreds of pixels.

Think diffraction.

Mitsubishi has had exclusive rights on things before. Like the 1280x768 DLP chip, they had exclusive right for that one for 6 months before the competition could use it.

Mitsubishi being one of the biggest and baddest wolfes in Japan and when they want exclusives they often get them. That said I dont really know if they have exclusive or not on C2 Fine, but it certenly look that way. Epsons own TW1000 wont come out until Januari and I have heard the same rumors for Panasonic, Sanyo and Hitachi. The only rumor out there on an other C2 Fine panel projector is BenQ, but I havent any real information on that.

*edit due too a misstake in information*

Hi,

Why would Mitsubishi be the only ones getting C2Fine? Sanyo and Panny sold way more LCD projectors last year, so you would think they would get priority from Epson vs Epson trying to piss off they main customers.

jcg

The actual Sanyo's / Panny's "silence" is very strange. Could this simply mean that for 1080p, one or both of them will be going the LCoS way instead of the C2Fine? Remember the Cinetron (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_1/show-report-ces-2006-page-43.html)?

BTW this is simply a question of mine, not a rumor! ;)

Hugo

Mitsubishi is part of matsushita
Matsushita owns JVC/Victor, but not Mitsubishi. Truth be told, Mitsubishi Corp. is probably a bigger company than Matsushita, even if their automoble and electronics divisions are going through hard times.

Hi,

The actual Sanyo's / Panny's "silence" is very strange.

With MRSP's in the 5K region for the Pearl (LCOS) and the Mitsubishi, the issue for Sanyo and Panasonic becomes pricing. They are dominant in the <3.5K area for their LCD's. For 1080 designs, I doubt their lens design is acceptable, so new optics plus processing is going to hit their bottom line. I would think they would want to capitalize on the first generation of 1080p pj's but competition from manufacturers who have a better quality rep might undermine their plans.

Is it possible that the are keeping their devices under wraps since perhaps they read the market entrails correctly and are wondering where to position their devices?

ted

"Think diffraction."

Could you be more specific? Diffraction in general would affect all microdisplays.

Man, this is killing me. Should I wait or should I pull the trigger on a AE900U for $1300 and get a 1080P next year for half the cost?

Actually there's no such mother-of-all giant called Mitsubishi. All those companies you see with red three-diamond logo are not legally related nowadays, they merely share the same ancestor.

Mitsubishi Electric, which makes the projectors, is way smaller than Matsushita.

Matsushita owns JVC/Victor, but not Mitsubishi. Truth be told, Mitsubishi Corp. is probably a bigger company than Matsushita, even if their automoble and electronics divisions are going through hard times.

Man, this is killing me. Should I wait or should I pull the trigger on a AE900U for $1300 and get a 1080P next year for half the cost?

And wonder what you're missing every time you fire up the AE900? Not to mention your wife or SO might not be very excited about your wanting to upgrade in a year losing money on your original projector and spending more for the new one.

Life's short, if you can afford it, get the box that will thrill you every time you turn it on. If you can't afford it, go with the machine you can. That's my approach anyway. Going through that fight once a year isn't worth it to me.

And wonder what you're missing every time you fire up the AE900? Not to mention your wife or SO might not be very excited about your wanting to upgrade in a year losing money on your original projector and spending more for the new one.

Life's short, if you can afford it, get the box that will thrill you every time you turn it on. If you can't afford it, go with the machine you can. That's my approach anyway. Going through that fight once a year isn't worth it to me.

Yep, I think EA's have more fun. ;)

This is pure speculation on my part, but I don't see the price of the 1080p units dropping like previous PJ's. Especially the HC5000 which is coming in at such a value right off the bat IMO.
I keep grinning everytime I go over what you get for your buck; 1080p, C2Fine, dynamic iris, HQV Reon processing, MLA, mechanical lens shift & zoom, two digital inputs, 5000hr bulb & 19db for $4k US? Holy smokes!!! I can't wait for this thing to show up on my doorstep. I'll be too busy watching it to worry about what else is out there or how much less I could get it for a year from now.

Hello together!

Greetings from my hotelroom in Berlin :D

We just put a first HC5000-preview online on our webpage, we could get a first personal demonstration yesterday, before the IFA started.

Result: Impressive!!!

Have fun! :)

Regards,
Ekkehart, www.cine4home.de

Thanks Ekkehart. I've just been reading a babelfish translation.

No screendoor at 1.5x viewing distance. That is great news! Likewise the apparently excellent implementation of the Reon XV chip. Looks like I'll be able to make do with my existing SD video processor and use the Mits when I go HD.

Mind you, in the words of babelfish:

We can summarize our first meeting with the HC5000 with a word: Leg-printing! :D

Nice one Ekkehart! Can you give any general indication of how the new panels compare to newer DLP models?

Ekkehart! The BIG question: now that you have tested a Sony Pearl and seen the HC5000, how do the two compare? Assuming the $1000-ish price difference remains (be it MSRP, MAP or dealer pricing) do you think the Sony Pearl's picture justifies the higher price? Is the HC5000 a "step down" in any way so that the lower price is necessary in order to compete? Or do we simply have a case where there are two better-than-expected 1080p options for less than $5000?

:D

Jon

Thanks a lot Ekkehart!

Main points:

The demo setup was first-rate: totally black room, 3.6m-wide 2.35:1 screen, and the sources were a Sharp Blu-ray Recorder, a Toshiba HD-XA-1 and the Toshiba RD-A1 (hidden from the public!).

Because of the big screen, the iris was off, so the projector was at native contrast. Nonetheless, the result was good, even twilight scenes were very immersive.

No colour weakness was noticed.

No screendoor at 1.5x.

No VB or uniformity problems.

That's the gist of it.

Hmm - what about screendoor at 1.0-1.3x distance?
I'm plannin to have 3m wide screen seats at 4m from it.