Can anyone explain why we cannot complain about projector pricing? :confused:

Consumers always demand lower prices, and better performance.
Actually they don't. *Some* consumers don't demand lower prices. That's why there are companies names Mercedes and BMW and Ferrari and.....................

And it's why there will always be Toyota Camry's AND Lexus', and yes, God forbid, they might even be built on the same chassis.

As for your first sentence, you can complain all you want. For me *personally*, it's just gets really really tiring and pretty much degrades most of the threads here. Marantz has for years focused on creating premium projectors with premium prices. And for fricken 5 years now, every thread on a Marantz projector has a bunch of people that express shock and awe that Marantz dares to price their projectors as they do. "Oh my God, it's a single chip, are they nuts". "Oh my God, I can buy a Sony Ruby for 10K, are they nuts". "Oh my God I can buy an Optoma of the same resolution for xxx, are they nuts".

So far, it seems they are doing OK.

Fine, it is time to come clean. Darin had to call the paramedics at the PD demo at Infocomm. I then hired the paramedics to follow me to the Joe Kane demo, TI demo and any other 1 chip demo we viewed. It got so bad that all of the attendees ended up on the floor writhing in pain except Darin. Do to the physical impairment from 1 chip DLP, TI issued a press release stating they were halting production. Darin will be the only one able to obtain a 1 chip, since he is the lone person who is immune from its damaging effects.:)

I must confess that do to this forum I psyche myself out every time I view a 1 chip. In the back of my mind, I keep thinking that I am going to get a headache or something. Unfortunately, I never do.:)

Ericglo

But what do you do if you are effected in the "real world"?
It can be eliminated with three chips, so that is what i will wait for.
I'm not saying it's not an issue for some people. If it bothers you, by all means don't buy one.

It's the same with RBE, but the difference is ever greater. I'd guess RBE is mentioned on AVS somewhere between 100-1000 times as much as it is in the "real world".

We could probably cure everyone on this forum of this with a simple sugar pill.
I wonder what the Pharmaceutical company would call this pill ?

A large volume of people don't even set brightness/contrast or colour when they buy a new set.
They just plug them in and are very happy.
Most think the sharpness setting is actually a good thing.(and those who can be bothered set it to it's highest setting)

Just because they are not aware the things are wrong doesn't make the picture right.

I come to this forum to learn, and strive to have better images.
People here are better informed, and expect more.
They are not the average buyer.

I have watched all the battles between technologies.
I have seen new innovations come and go.
Wobbling 1080 chips reared their heads, but people here didn't want them in their projectors.
No, they wanted genuine 1080p.
Why?
Both would have measured 1080 in certain tests etc.

One speaker surround systems are popular at the moment, but are they as good as a genuine surround package?

I will say it one last time. (before the forums "premium" dealers start getting heavy)
1 chippers have their place and are very good indeed (i own one), but we should be striving for better.
And if that means 3 chippers, so be it.
If you are happy with a 1 chipper then fine, i'm glad you are not effected by any of the related artifacts.
But remember the colour wheel was a compromise to keep costs down, not as a performance enhancing choice.

However, i decided to ask her a few months a go.
As to not influence her in any way, i just asked was there anything strange with the Start of "Spider Man".
To my amazement (and horror), she mentioned "those strange colour flashes".
I asked her how long had she seen them, and her reply was "since you first got it"!
I asked her why hadn't she said something, and her reply was even worse.
Apparently, she said she just closed her eyes when ever she saw them because she thought they were due to the picture size.


Perfect example, consider yourself lucky if you just see them but they don't bother you. Unfortunatelly I can't watch it over a longer time, so 3-chip is really the only solution for me an others. There's also a guy on the forum who had a 1-chip and had to replace it because his wife suffered eyestrain. Alot of people mentioned they got used to it and just ignore it. Of course that's one way to do it, I wonder how many people would ignore dropouts when it comes to audio?

And speaking of demos and telling people about it. I was at an audio demo not too long ago which involved switching cables and so on. The guy who did the demo started a CD and obviously something was wrong, the people in the demo knew this since they were looking at each other probably thinking "WTF...". Then they were asked if there is something wrong and no one said a word, they just kept listening. It wasn't until the guy walked up to the rig and hooked up a cable that wasn't connected properly. They started the demo with only one speaker working. After the system worked properly, he asked if that isn't much better now and everybody went "ooohh..." and "yeah...". So much for asking people if something is wrong. Some will tell you, the majority however won't say a word.

Stephan
As mentioned, i can live with a 1 chipper.
Thankfully, for me i only see the odd colour flash. (on the S3)
But i have started to see other motion related artifacts (that i previously thought was in the source) that i don't see on 3 chippers.
It might be the case that my projector is so out dated that those artifacts have now been addressed by the newest 1 chippers.
I will view the S1 with an open mind, but just feel i may as well wait for a 3 chipper.
The only trouble is mentioning that fact here! :rolleyes:

If you are happy with a 1 chipper then fine, i'm glad you are not effected by any of the related artifacts. But remember the colour wheel was a compromise to keep costs down, not as a performance enhancing choice.
Just about everything is a compromise to keep costs down. You just happen to be focusing on the color wheel as the compromise that bothers you. CRTers focus on the black level. People who prefer DLP focus on the "soft" picture of LCOS. I do personally prefer a 3-chip DLP and as I've stated before, based on my personal preferences a 3-chip 1920 x 1080 DLP with the highest contrast possible is my personal preference.

Just about everything is a compromise to keep costs down. You just happen to be focusing on the color wheel as the compromise that bothers you.

But it doesn't bother me that much.
I would just prefer it not to even be an issue.
I am worried how much it bothers my wife, as shown she was too polite to say anything and spoil my hobby!

If RBE shouldn't be mentioned, Alan can just adjust the swear filter to automatically delete all mention of it. ;)

"Would you have said anything if the host had asked you if you had seen anything that you didn't expect? As I mentioned, after a while I got tired of asking."

Sorry, I missed that part.

And sorry to everyone for my contribution to veering this thread off track to a RBE debate.

QQQ, Your complaints about our complaints are getting pretty tiring. Let us complain in peace. Huh?. I think I'll go have a beer or I'll have to complain some more! :)

Sandy

I think my complaints represent better value.

QQQ, Even though your complaints may represent better value, we have chosen our complaints to reach a different market than your complaints. Our target complaint market is not value oriented. We are after the few that will listen to our inferior complaints but pay a lot more for them. Your complaints represent too low a price for the perfomance they offer. Based on the technical content they should sell for a lot more compared to our complaints. You should consider an alternative marketing channel ( a different thread) for your complaints as we have already locked up this channel because we want to sell very expensive complaints to this uneducated crowd and we don't want you to wake them up and show them better value complaints! :D ,Sandy.

Well, the 11S1 IS a 1-chip DLP so I think it's rather useless to debate the problems with that technology. What is more interesting is in what areas the Marantz will be better than the Ruby, and in what it will be worse. And, is the asking price really worth it?

I would think that if the 11S1 would have a dynamic iris like the Ruby, and more light output, it would be a winner and a lot of people here, that want the DLP's sharpness, ANSI CR and more light than the Ruby, would gladly pay 20 grand. But without it?

I would love to see it myself.


/Mattias

My favorite are the people who jerk their heads left and right, up and down, etc. for 15+ minutes to see if they can detect rainbows and then complain that they got a headache. :)

--Darin


That was me during the TI demo of the 6x darkchip. I am super sensitive to rainbows, I could not see one rainbow during that presentation. That issue will be no more, fixed :) IMO.

I think the more interesting comparisons will be with other 1080p single chippers that are coming out-some maybe even approaching 40-50% of the price of the Marantz. It reads as if some of these other single chippers will have a dynamic iris so that should will be a nice comparison to see.

I am curious to see what the light output and cr is going to be when calibrated. I have no doubt the color accuracy is going to be excellent. I am sure the video processing is one of the main strengths of this pj and that the cost of a comparable processor should be added to the cost of pjs that don't have similar processing (which will probably be almost all other pjs less costly).

I think mpjohnst's point (if true) that this same projector sells for half as much in Japan (and I assume they make money doing so) does put the argument that the high cost is due to all the higher performance features/parts in this pj in a different light. Again IF true, the higher cost is more due to the sales channel these pjs are distributed than higher parts/build cost. BTW, I don't have a problem with that at all and it seems they have found an excellent way to sell their pjs.

I would bet that this pj follows most everything sold in that the sellling price has very little to do with the total cost to build except that the selling price is greater :)....

[QUOTE=Dan Miller]Of course I gave Brian a good deal, as I would any reviewer. But that doesn't make the statement ingenuine (is that a word?).

I believe the word is "Disingenuous"...:D

Back to the Fray!

There's really only one "true black", but you'd have to enter a black hole to experience it ;)

Why the apparent hostility?

Hostility Level ratio = $$$'s spent/Annual Income*Brand

We support what we own. Our dollars and ego get invested in generally equal proportions. The challenge is when we don't acknowledge others opinions (Which will differ along with their personal tastes) or when the supporting person (Like Dan Miller or Denon Jeff) weigh in. We GREATLY appreciate their participation, but since they work for a company many AVS'ers will suspect their opinions will have some pro company bias.

BTW, loved your new DE built theater!..:D

[QUOTE=Dan Miller]Of course I gave Brian a good deal, as I would any reviewer. But that doesn't make the statement ingenuine (is that a word?).

I believe the word is "Disingenuous"...:D

Back to the Fray!
I was just testing everyone. I was not being genuous ;).

"I am sure the video processing is one of the main strengths of this pj and that the cost of a comparable processor should be added to the cost of pjs that don't have similar processing (which will probably be almost all other pjs less costly)."

From the first post in the HD81 thread:

"HD81 is a 2-piece architecture, MSRP $9999 comes with an external scalar box, powered by Gennum and a dedicated video enhancement chip. This dedicated video chip will allow users to enhance even more after Gennum does the 1080p conversion."

We could probably cure everyone on this forum of this with a simple sugar pill.
I wonder what the Pharmaceutical company would call this pill ?

"Obecalp" ??

Why use inferior sources? Is that to try to skew the results?
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've read here.


--Darin

and after the "depth" comment that's saying something!

The HD10K is Liquid Crystal on Silicone (LCoS) technology which has a few variances that are in the market place; JVC calls its version D-ILA, while Sony has named its version SXRD (Silicon X-tal Reflective Display, and X-tal stands for Crystal). Nonetheless, all versions work in pretty much the same manner.

liquid xtal on fake titties?

Raoul, using DVD as a source for the top of the line projectors, even when one is 1080P, is really trying to screw up the outcome. Everyone that have the Ruby know that DVD and HD are two very different things on this PJ.

While that is true, it is also true that RBE can't be removed from 1-chip projectors completely. You can only reduce it by so much. .

A solution with LEDs is rumored to eliminate RBE, no color wheel...

Its not the color wheel itself that causes the RBE. Its the "sequential display of colors"-process (R,G and B) that comes from the fact that you have just one image source, ie 1 dmd. The only difference between lamp+cw vs LED is that the latter allows speedier updates but the RBE is still there. Maybe some will still see them (or more likely, think they do..). If you are a fly on the other hand... :)

While that is true, it is also true that RBE can't be removed from 1-chip projectors completely. You can only reduce it by so much.By that logic you cannot completely remove it from 3-chip DLPs either. If that doesn't make sense at first, just think about how Pulse-Width-Modulation works. It all depends on whether you consider RBE removed for a person who cannot detect them in any way or whether you only consider what a scope could pick up (in which case 3-chip DLPs will always have color separations unless something else is modulated in the light paths or they make another drastic design change from the way DLP chips work now).

Would you consider RBE to be removed if the separations were fast enough that nobody could detect them (know whether they were there or not)?

--Darin

What a waste of high quality brain power!

Darin. Are you going to get one of these?

I think mpjohnst's point (if true) that this same projector sells for half as much in Japan (and I assume they make money doing so) does put the argument that the high cost is due to all the higher performance features/parts in this pj in a different light. Again IF true, the higher cost is more due to the sales channel these pjs are distributed than higher parts/build cost. BTW, I don't have a problem with that at all and it seems they have found an excellent way to sell their pjs.

His numbers were wrong. They were actually numbers for the VP-12S4, and that was before duty and shipping.

That was me during the TI demo of the 6x darkchip. I am super sensitive to rainbows, I could not see one rainbow during that presentation. That issue will be no more, fixed :) IMO.

I've heard thsi a million times. I'll believe it when I DONT see it ;)

By that logic you cannot completely remove it from 3-chip DLPs either. If that doesn't make sense at first, just think about how Pulse-Width-Modulation works.

PWM has its own issues, so I would not say that an artifact created by PWM is the same as RBE.


Would you consider RBE to be removed if the separations were fast enough that nobody could detect them (know whether they were there or not)?

That's a good question, but I don't think I would, because you can never tell that nobody will detect them.

He said price/performance. The performance means the image alone not the other parameters you brought up (as an aside the warm-up time is bs). I agree that the other parameters play a role in the decision, but he was making a point with the performance. In the digital realm, a Canon, Panny or any of the low cost DLPs would give you better price/performance. Just like in the computer world, a middle of the line CPU or graphics card will give you better price/performance than a top of the line product.

I just think everyone should see the pj first. If it does perform better than one can decide if the delta is great enough to justify the cost.

Ericglo
P.S. - I don't believe the Light Valves would be the logical conclusion. The contrast ratio isn't exactly great at less than 1k to 1. If I did own one, then I would have Scott(tse) help me with it. He was working on next generation LVs when work was halted. Maybe he could help increase the contrast ratio.

Again you ignore the spirit of the issue.

To say that physical/logistical considerations don't figure in to the bottom line of a value assessment is absurd.

PWM has its own issues, so I would not say that an artifact created by PWM is the same as RBE.With PWM there are colors put up on the screen that are meant to be mixed by your visual system, just like with single chip DLPs. The sizes of the gaps are just different. And those color separations are the whole reason for RBE. Just consider a yellow on a black background that is 75% green and 25% red vs 25% green and 75% red. One or both of those will have to have one of the primary colors up while the other isn't with a 3 chip DLP and thus color separation.

--Darin

His numbers were wrong. They were actually numbers for the VP-12S4, and that was before duty and shipping.
Well, actually I did state the quote was for the S4 and I corrected it to only the $8.7K figure. I fail to see how the numbers were wrong? Was the dealer selling used/grey market product? Would it not be warranted? I sent you the link when you requested it via PM...

Even with shipping and the 5% fee to import, I would imagine it is still considerably less than what it is sold for stateside. And actually, it seems reasonably priced in Japan based on your comments of performance and quality. $8.7K is more than pretty much every other 1-chip, 720p DLP sold today so it would justify the premium. Again, my issue is essentially the double counting of the premium components to justify higher prices than the S1/2/3... once in Japan and then again in the US.

I was ready to put this issue to bed if you hadn't issued a blanket statement that I was wrong with no detail to explain. :(
-Matt

This thread is about the VP-11. Your original post says nothing about the VP-12S4. You told me that in a PM. And after shipping, insurance and the fee, you are a couple of hundred below the VP-12S4 price, which is 10k. The implication of your post was 50% off. That's what got everyone started. I just needed to clear that up. I wasn't trying to re open anything here...

Poor Dan is scurrying around trying to put the genie back in the bottle that the vp-11 can be bought in Japan for less than half of US MSRP. I don't know if this is true but Matt seems to think so. This reinforces my theory that Marantz is just providing fat margins in the US for its dealers due to the sales channel they have chosen to use. This projector would be killer at 10K msrp like it likely is in Japan and Hong Kong. What a shame. Sandy

Poor Dan is scurrying around trying to put the genie back in the bottle that the vp-11 can be bought in Japan for less than half of US MSRP. I don't know if this is true but Matt seems to think so. This reinforces my theory that Marantz is just providing fat margins in the US for its dealers due to the sales channel they have chosen to use. This projector would be killer at 10K msrp like it likely is in Japan and Hong Kong. What a shame. SandyI think this is just a misunderstanding as the 11S1 isn't $10k MSRP anywhere, from what I've seen. Unfortunately, a lot of incorrect conclusions can be built on misunderstandings.

--Darin

Thanks Dan. Any timescale as to when this option will be available?
I've already ordered a projector for my dem room from Marantz UK who do not have any info regarding this option at this moment.

When is the actual projector being released in the UK Eric ?

With PWM there are colors put up on the screen that are meant to be mixed by your visual system, just like with single chip DLPs. The sizes of the gaps are just different. And those color separations are the whole reason for RBE. Just consider a yellow on a black background that is 75% green and 25% red vs 25% green and 75% red. One or both of those will have to have one of the primary colors up while the other isn't with a 3 chip DLP and thus color separation.

Again, artifacts created by a color wheel and artifacts created by PWM are two completely different things. On a 1-chip, you get RBE and the PWM artifacts. On 3-chip, you can only see PWM issues, which are far less annoying than RBE.

I know alot of people who can simply not watch a 1-chip, but they can live with a 3-chip, even if they can spot artifacts.

When is the actual projector being released in the UK Eric ?
Hi Tom,
Mine is part of the first shipment which is due to land in the UK at some point in September. Hopefully the first or second week.

Have they confimed the UK retail price Eric ?

Have they confimed the UK retail price Eric ?
Nothing 100% confirmed or set in stone as yet Tom but £9-£10K was mentioned by Marantz UK. Which I guess makes it approx the same as the USD equivalent.

Eric
Do you know what the UK warranty is on Marantz projectors?
The UK site is a little unclear, but i seem to think it says two years. (3 in US?)
And can it be extended officially with Marantz?
Thanks... :)

Tom
If you get one, you know my number! :D

This thread is about the VP-11. Your original post says nothing about the VP-12S4. You told me that in a PM. And after shipping, insurance and the fee, you are a couple of hundred below the VP-12S4 price, which is 10k. The implication of your post was 50% off. That's what got everyone started. I just needed to clear that up. I wasn't trying to re open anything here...
My bad, looks like I didn't clarify I was talking about the S4. I assumed that was understood seeing as how the S1 isn't for sale yet. That said, did the S4 get a price drop recently? I seem to remember it being like $13-14K... that is what I comparing with. So false alarm folks. Apologies to Dan.
-Matt

Eric
Do you know what the UK warranty is on Marantz projectors?
The UK site is a little unclear, but i seem to think it says two years. (3 in US?)
And can it be extended officially with Marantz?
Thanks... :)

Paul,
I'll ask Marantz UK for clarification on Monday.

Strangely enough it's the other way around with Velodyne. 2 Years in the US and 3 years in the UK.

You're welcome to pop over to my place to see the PJ by the way. Beers on me :)

Paul,
I'll ask Marantz UK for clarification on Monday.

Strangely enough it's the other way around with Velodyne. 2 Years in the US and 3 years in the UK.

You're welcome to pop over to my place to see the PJ by the way. Beers on me :)

Paul: I'll drive there, you drive back! :D

I've steared clear of one chip DLP due to the fact it was invented by Navin Johnson. His first invention, the Opti-Grab eyeglass holder, caused so many people to go cross-eyed that the ensuing class-action lawsuit nearly broke him. But you can't hold 'The Jerk' down and now he's screwing up our brains with RBE. It may be time to sue him again. ;)

Again, artifacts created by a color wheel and artifacts created by PWM are two completely different things. On a 1-chip, you get RBE and the PWM artifacts. On 3-chip, you can only see PWM issues, which are far less annoying than RBE.RBE is caused by color separations that are physically there. Both 1-chip and 3-chip have color separations.
I know alot of people who can simply not watch a 1-chip, but they can live with a 3-chip, even if they can spot artifacts.Only because the color separations are smaller amounts, so they get below a threshold for those people.

Your original claim was that RBE with single chippers can only be reduced, yet the amount of time that colors are separated could be reduced down to be equal or less than the amount of time that colors can also get separated with current 3-chip DLPs.

--Darin

Hello Brian

Any pictures, screen shots?
please let us know........... :)


Glen

I agree with one of the members before. It is disappointing that the Marantz is not a brighter machine. I think the industry still needs to learn that especially high-end-users as well go the extra mile in terms of screen size, especially as now software becomes available which makes real big screens with high quality possible. Otherwise the whole investment does not make to much sense. You can beat me now, but I saw at my dealer a 2000$ LCD-pj against the Ruby and on a fairly small screen (2m wide), the LCD was not worse. On my 4.3 meter screen at home though, the Ruby beats any LCD by a significant margin and with HD-material I don't know what I should ask for more ....besides a bit more brightness perhaps.

RBE is caused by color separations that are physically there. Both 1-chip and 3-chip have color separations.

A Toyota has 4 wheels, just like a Ferrari... yet, two completely different things.

The color "seperation" on a 3-chip works in a completely different way than 1-chip. The problem with the 1-chip is that the problem comes from a color wheel, filtering the light that hits only one DMD. That is not the case with a 3-chip design, therefore these color seperation artifacts are gone. What remains are the artifacts from adjusting the intensity of the light output for each color on the three DMDs.

Again, completely different way how things work.

I agree with one of the members before. It is disappointing that the Marantz is not a brighter machine.
You will continue to see a tradeoff, for a given pricepoint, between brightness vs contrast made by different companies. Traditionally Infocus has been at the brightness end of the spectrum, Sharp has been at the contrast end. Yamaha, and Marantz are also at the high contrast end. The "high-end" for pj continues to target the high contrast market.

I have tried a few screen shots with our point and shoot digital camera but none of them come close to capturing the screen image which is much more detailed and vibrant. They are too big to upload but I would be happy to email them to anyone who PMs me their email address. Any suggestions are more than welcome.
Brian

A Toyota has 4 wheels, just like a Ferrari... yet, two completely different things.

The color "seperation" on a 3-chip works in a completely different way than 1-chip. The problem with the 1-chip is that the problem comes from a color wheel, filtering the light that hits only one DMD. That is not the case with a 3-chip design, therefore these color seperation artifacts are gone. What remains are the artifacts from adjusting the intensity of the light output for each color on the three DMDs.

Again, completely different way how things work.I notice that you said, "these color separation artifacts are gone" and not, "color separation artifacts are gone" and assume you did that color separations are not gone. So, how do you define RBE? If you define it only as a person seeing the color separation then you would be wrong that there is no way to get rid of it with single chip DLPs because there is a threshold of speed where nobody could detect it. If you define it as rainbows or color separation that are physically there whether any person could see them or not, then I could show it to you on a scope with a 3-chip DLP.

Just to be clear since it seems to fit with what you've said, do you claim that 3-chip DLPs don't have RBE, but do have color separations? If so, on what basis?

--Darin

If a tree falls in the forrest and no one sees it, did it fall? Darin says yes, I say NO.

I am sorrry Darin but you and I see this video field from 2 different angles entirely, and your Objectivity is getting to me. As much as I appreciate your industriousness in taking on these Personal Videophile Missions you have volunteered on, I must say that your objectivity is literally clouding your vision.

There is no way that the organic image from a good 3 chip dlp in any way has the fatiguing effect of RBE.

I am serious, are you blind? Your priorities from what I gather you did at Infocomm certainly points at that. Because Infocomm was as clear as Black and White, there were a couple of truly outstanding images from 1080p and 2k 3 chip dlp and the rest were also rans. Can't your own two eyes tell you that? I suggest that you have much development to do as an expert watcher, and therefore suggest that you ponder on the danger your writing poses to the videophile community, I know you mean well but Jesus Christ you are sheperding the flock to the Abyss. Please restrain your instinct to put a scope on every piece of machinery that crosses your path and COMPARE THE IMAGE VISUALLY TO REALITY instead, that is the ultimate test.

Quite some time ago I do remember reading that some people reported seeing rainbows on the early three chippers, and this apparently was down to the way the chips were being modulated. I've no idea if that has since changed and if that can still be the case now though.

Gary

I disagree. I've had my share of 3 chip dlp watching (about 3,500+ hours), encompasing several xenon models from the first svga SONY to last years 2k, and the new 1080p's at Inf..

I have never seen said rainbows on a 3 chipper, in contrast I immediately pickup RBE, suffer from color wheel nausea and are bothered by the lack of single chip color depth (with the notable exception of the last 15 minute TI demo in June).

Imagine an analog driven one-chip LCOS projector with a standard (=5x, RGBRGB) colorwheel, I predict that it will produce RBE very similar to a one-chip DLP. Sure the DLP will have a more pronounced effect, but this, I would speculate, is because of PWM and higher ANSI contrast compared to the LCOS projector.

I think this was Stephan's point, what most people refer to as RBE is due to the colorwheel, not PWM.

I disagree. I've had my share of 3 chip dlp watching (about 3,500+ hours), encompasing several xenon models from the first svga SONY to last years 2k, and the new 1080p's at Inf..

I have never seen said rainbows on a 3 chipper, in contrast I immediately pickup RBE, suffer from color wheel nausea and are bothered by the lack of single chip color depth (with the notable exception of the last 15 minute TI demo in June).


I don't see rainbows at all, so maybe I should dissagree with those who say they do?? Just because we don't see them doesn't mean that everybody doesn't.

I'm just passing on some information, dissagreeing with it won't change it.

Gary

If a tree falls in the forrest and no one sees it, did it fall? Darin says yes, I say NO.

I am sorrry Darin but you and I see this video field from 2 different angles entirely, and your Objectivity is getting to me. As much as I appreciate your industriousness in taking on these Personal Videophile Missions you have volunteered on, I must say that your objectivity is literally clouding your vision.

There is no way that the organic image from a good 3 chip dlp in any way has the fatiguing effect of RBE.

I am serious, are you blind? Your priorities from what I gather you did at Infocomm certainly points at that. Because Infocomm was as clear as Black and White, there were a couple of truly outstanding images from 1080p and 2k 3 chip dlp and the rest were also rans. Can't your own two eyes tell you that? I suggest that you have much development to do as an expert watcher, and therefore suggest that you ponder on the danger your writing poses to the videophile community, I know you mean well but Jesus Christ you are sheperding the flock to the Abyss. Please restrain your instinct to put a scope on every piece of machinery that crosses your path and COMPARE THE IMAGE VISUALLY TO REALITY instead, that is the ultimate test.All pretty amusing. You might want to work on your comprehension skills. If people can't see RBE on current 3 chip DLPs, then if the single chippers get the color separations small enough then people won't see RBE with them. You either have to define RBE as what people can detect, in which case both single and 3 chippers have the capability to get rid of it, or you have to define it as actual separations whether people can detect them or not. Take your pick, but if you pick the first one (what people can detect) as you claim then you cannot agree with a statement that it is impossible to get rid of RBE with single chippers based on color separations being there (whether visible or not).

If you disagree, then back up your statement. And things like, "I see such-and-such with current single chippers" don't back up statements about what is possible or impossible with future improvements.

Excluding their black, single chip DLPs can put up one color at a time. Three chip DLPs can put up one of 7 colors at a time. This reduces the chances of a person detecting RBE significantly, as would 48x timing with single chip DLPs, but maybe they need to go even higher than 48x for some people (if they do it still doesn't support that it is impossible to make RBE invisible with single chippers).

And BTW: Looking at images with trade show setups is in no way a very definitive test as you really should know.

--Darin

Darin,

It's true that PWM is a series of time-sequential events, but the fact that it happens many orders of magnitude faster than 1-chip color events seems to make you're argument that it's the same as 1-chip RBE a bit of a stretch.

"Three chip DLPs can put up one of 7 colors at a time."

Also, 3-chips *can* put a mixed color from all 3 chips on the screen at the same time, depending on the synchronization (if any) of the 3 chips PWM.

Per the above, shouldn't that be one of 256 colors?

The source of confusion is the notion "at a time", for 1-chip this is clearly the duration of the passage of one colorwheel segment, while for 3-chip, I assume Darin means with "at a time" one mirror cycle, where the mirror of a color=chip can be either on or off.

So you have potentially:

1. R on
2. G on
3. B on
4. RG on
5. RB on
6. GB on
7. RGB on

To generate more colors at 'a time' you need several mirror cycles, to be able to weight the R, G and B parts.

Darin,

It's true that PWM is a series of time-sequential events, but the fact that it happens many orders of magnitude faster than 1-chip color events seems to make you're argument that it's the same as 1-chip RBE a bit of a stretch.

"Three chip DLPs can put up one of 7 colors at a time."

Also, 3-chips *can* put a mixed color from all 3 chips on the screen at the same time, depending on the synchronization (if any) of the 3 chips PWM.

Per the above, shouldn't that be one of 256 colors?

No, it's one of seven(not counting black). Each of the R,G,B pixels can only be in the on or off position. That gives you Black(or gray if you'd prefer), Red, Green, Blue, Magenta, Cyan, Yellow, and White. All other colors are created temporally similar to 1-chip DLP, through PDM.

It's true that PWM is a series of time-sequential events, but the fact that it happens many orders of magnitude faster than 1-chip color events seems to make you're argument that it's the same as 1-chip RBE a bit of a stretch.The original statement was that it is impossible to get rid of RBE for single chip projectors. Faster is definitely relevant and even if it is many orders of magnitude faster it doesn't mean single chippers cannot be designed to be faster and reach a level where people see as little RBE. Also, I'm not sure how fast you think the mirrors change with these, but I doubt it is as fast as you think. The granularity for on/off/on/off would be different than the granularity for leaving mirrors on a little more or less. Consider the case I mentioned earlier of "75% green and 25% red vs 25% green and 75% red." They could do some yellow, but at some point they need to do either green by itself or red by itself. They could do yellow/green/yellow/green/... for the first case as fast as the mirrors will go, but they still have a separation between those two.

Please remember that the original that I responded to was:
While that is true, it is also true that RBE can't be removed from 1-chip projectors completely. You can only reduce it by so much.Evidence that single chippers need to get quite a bit faster doesn't mean that RBE "can't be removed" if you define RBE as what people see and if you define it as what is actually there then emperical evidence that people don't see RBE with 3 chip DLPs means pretty much nothing (it only means something with the first definition).

--Darin

I would welcome receiving the screen shots of the Marantz. I own the S4 and am considering getting the 11S1 soon.

Thanks,

Marc

Sorry about that last post. I thought I was sending a PM to BrainHT

Marc

Quite some time ago I do remember reading that some people reported seeing rainbows on the early three chippers, and this apparently was down to the way the chips were being modulated. I've no idea if that has since changed and if that can still be the case now though.

Gary

Gary
I remember reading something about that as well.
From what i remember, it wasn't colour separations more of a black and white strobing effect.
It was believed to be from the timing of the mirror drivers, maybe switching at the same time.
Since i fancy waiting for a 3 chip 1080 DLP, i would really like to know if this has been sorted/addressed.

Thanks Paul. :)

I know I read it somwhere around 2002/3 but couldn't find it when I did a search, so thanks for the confirmation.

Gary

Supposedly Sim2 started shipping their 1080p last month. Has anyone seen it yet? Any reviews in the works? I'd be curious to know how it compares to the 11S1. They are both premium brands -- traditionally in the same league. But the Marantz is $4K more expensive than the Sim2. I wonder if this is attributable to differences in content or differences in marketing strategies.

I'm hoping to be seeing the Sim2 1080 model on Wednesday, but I won't be seeing the Marantz anytime soon so won't be able to do a comparison, except with other current (720)projectors.

Gary

Quite some time ago I do remember reading that some people reported seeing rainbows on the early three chippers, and this apparently was down to the way the chips were being modulated.
I not only saw them, but also photographed them. :)

pen3.jpg (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45267)

gray50.jpg (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50457)

OK, I get it now aout the one of seven colors, thanks.

"Please remember that the original that I responded to was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan
While that is true, it is also true that RBE can't be removed from 1-chip projectors completely. You can only reduce it by so much."

I agree completely that at some point 1-chips will be fast enough that virtually (leaving wiggle room for those who calim to see it w/3-chip) human will see RBE.

"I'm not sure how fast you think the mirrors change with these, but I doubt it is as fast as you think."

I thought the mirrors could flip every 15 (or was it 5?) microsec. Using 15, that's 67 kHz, 185X faster than a 6X CW, if I did it right (I assumed 1X CW is 60 Hz).

I thought the mirrors could flip every 15 (or was it 5?) microsec. Using 15, that's 67 kHz, 185X faster than a 6X CW, if I did it right (I assumed 1X CW is 60 Hz).You could be right. Not sure if that is their granularity, the fastest they can do full cycles of on and off or half of that, but I doubt they are actually doing that many cycles. I believe there are also some limitations in the control systems for 1 or 2 million pixels (times 3), but I'm not sure how much that varies by image makeup and things. I haven't put a 3 chipper on a scope to see if they would be turning the mirrors on and off at anything close to 67 times per millisecond for the green and red mixtures I mentioned, but I doubt it.

If I get a chance to test another 3 chip DLP I will take a look at the timings. With the single chippers I've looked at the mirrors don't do a lot of transitions within a single color segment. I don't recall if I've seen more than 3 or 4, but then there is less reason to try to do a whole bunch there. The main thing for RBE reduction with a single chipper and a fixed colorwheel speed is to have the mirrors go on at the start of the color segment and also be on near the end of the color segment, with off time put in between. That way the amount of time until that primary gets up again is minimized.

As far as the x factor, it depends on whether you use a single segment or three segments. With 6x colorwheels single segments get under 1ms, where the 3 primary segments combined go at 360Hz (for 60Hz playback).

--Darin

Eric
Do you know what the UK warranty is on Marantz projectors?
The UK site is a little unclear, but i seem to think it says two years. (3 in US?)
And can it be extended officially with Marantz?
Thanks... :)


Paul,
Marantz UK warranty for projectors is 2 years.
3 years for all other Marantz products. I'll know about possible extended warranties when my rep comes back from his holiday in a few weeks time.

I not only saw them, but also photographed them. :)

pen3.jpg (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45267)

gray50.jpg (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=50457)


Eric was this the original Christie svga? That set was not as good as the SONY, could be that you had processing issues. In any event these projectors are phenomenal nowdays, you wont be photographing rainbows anymore.

All of you guys should take a look at the image projected by the (95k) Barco FL HD 18/14, it's the finest 1080p projector presently. What is interesting how it totally creamed the Chritie 1080p which had ringing and apparently higher interpixel gaps in the image. The Barco is the first 1080p projector to hold it's own against it's 2k siblings, which is very encouraging for HT.

The next step is to recreate this PQ using a compact xenon on a smaller chassis. I know of one company working on just that with a maunual iris and optional pinhole light gate.

Paul,
Marantz UK warranty for projectors is 2 years.
3 years for all other Marantz products. I'll know about possible extended warranties when my rep comes back from his holiday in a few weeks time.

Thanks Eric
I have no doubts Marantz will release a 3 chip 1080 sometime next year, so i need to make sure i have a solid warranty in place for when i buy. I would like to extend it to five years if possible.
I really fancy going for a constant height setup, and greatly upping the screen size, so want the extra brightness.

I'll never say never, but i have pretty much made my mind up to wait for a brighter 3 chipper.
But if Toms serious about getting one, i wouldn't mind coming down with him to see it though!

Ps
Tom, i vote we fly down...drink and fly back! :D
(oh! and try and see the projector if we get time!)

Eric was this the original Christie svga?
It is the Vista Pro Plus, an SVGA made in 1997 by Electrohome's projector division, which is now Christie.
That set was not as good as the SONY, could be that you had processing issues.
I have not seen the Sony, or any other 3-chip DLP for that matter.
In any event these projectors are phenomenal nowdays, you wont be photographing rainbows anymore.
Have you tried waving a white pen in front of them? That would convince me. :)

but I installed the VP-11S1 last night and am selling my VP-12S3. The difference is equal to or greater than the magnitude of the S3 over the S1. The blacks are virtually the equal to my Marquee 9500 at 1080P using a black screen, and with the substantially higher white screen output, the CR looks great.

I believe the 11S1 is as noisy as the 12S3, maybe slightly more so.

I shook my head to see rainbows but couldn't induce them, but no, I don't seem to suffer from RBE in the first place.

Using a Marantz 9500 with HDMI connection, and setting the DVD to interlaced output, the picture isn't nearly as good as the 480i thru component out. There is noise in night sky of the DVE scenes of the city and the fountain and ringing on both vertical and horizontal surfaces. I wanted to avoid using the 9500 scaling, will have to experiment with other outputs over HDMI to see if there is a better output.

Cable, D-Theater and Satellite HD look great over RGB.

11S1 not as robust as the S3 when it comes to sub-optimum positioning.

Don't care for the green color decoding using DVE color test stripes. I was unable to get a green that matched the background looking thru the green filter. Red and Blue were very good.

rpcooper,
Interested to hear the outcome of your DVD connection trials, as the GXP9351 in the VP11-S1 should be top notch. I wonder about the source of the noise in the image you saw. Also, when will you have a chance to hook up an HD-DVD player to it? I would love to know how good it can look when fed great software.

rocooper
Try to get your hands on a DVD player that does 480i via HDMI. I am using the Marantz DV9600 and the 480i via HDMI is significantly better than through component.
Enjoy!!
Brian

It appears that several people are starting to receive the Marantz VP-11S1 so let me pass along this tip.

The Black Level control has settings of Normal and Expand for HDMI or DVI signals. Ordinarily any black setting should be the same for YCbCr signals (primarily used over HDMI) and digital RGB-video signals (DVI or HDMI with video levels 16-235 for black to reference white). Although the manual says nothing about the Normal and Expand levels, you would expect to use Normal for those signals, and then use Expand for DVI RGB-PC signals. However, there is bug in the firmware/levels so you must also use Expand with YCbCr signals.

i.e. (for Marantz VP-11S1 only)

Signal Type - Black Level Setting

RGB-video (16-235) levels - Normal
RGB-PC (0-255) levels - Expand
YCbCr - Expand

I also recommend using the Standard gamma curve, which is now corrected from the previous Marantz projectors that I have evaluated.

My experience mirrors gregs with respect to Video Levels...

In addition I'll add that it seems like the VXP does an awfully good job most of the time. I'm still trying to get a path for 1080p24 into the PJ; but nothing in the house can do that... yet!

Greg,

We were monkeying with the supplied gamma curves, and I thought there was one other gamma that was pretty good as well. I'll have to double check tomorrow.

I'll ping you in the AM on some other stuff.

Best,

but I installed the VP-11S1 last night and am selling my VP-12S3. The difference is equal to or greater than the magnitude of the S3 over the S1. The blacks are virtually the equal to my Marquee 9500 at 1080P using a black screen, and with the substantially higher white screen output, the CR looks great.

I believe the 11S1 is as noisy as the 12S3, maybe slightly more so.

I shook my head to see rainbows but couldn't induce them, but no, I don't seem to suffer from RBE in the first place.

Using a Marantz 9500 with HDMI connection, and setting the DVD to interlaced output, the picture isn't nearly as good as the 480i thru component out. There is noise in night sky of the DVE scenes of the city and the fountain and ringing on both vertical and horizontal surfaces. I wanted to avoid using the 9500 scaling, will have to experiment with other outputs over HDMI to see if there is a better output.

Cable, D-Theater and Satellite HD look great over RGB.

11S1 not as robust as the S3 when it comes to sub-optimum positioning.

Don't care for the green color decoding using DVE color test stripes. I was unable to get a green that matched the background looking thru the green filter. Red and Blue were very good.

Thanks for your thoughts. As an S3 owner looking at this projector I am interested in what you had to say. It is a shame the 11S1 is as loud as my S3. Was hoping for the Sony whisper quiet.

Also interested to see if you get your 480i HDMI issues resolved as that should look the best one would think with the 11S1 Gennum processing.

Keep your impressions coming. Lastly do you notice a big difference between HD on your S3 which looks great on mine to HD on the 11S1?

We were monkeying with the supplied gamma curves, and I thought there was one other gamma that was pretty good as well. I'll have to double check tomorrow.
The Dynamic gamma curve will probably be many people's first choice because it adds more "punch" to the picture. Gamma 'e' should also have "curb" appeal. I'll stick with the Standard gamma, which stays close to 2.2.

Hi rocooper

How big is your screen?

Rob

The Dynamic gamma curve will probably be many people's first choice because it adds more "punch" to the picture. Gamma 'e' should also have "curb" appeal. I'll stick with the Standard gamma, which stays close to 2.2.

It definitely wasn't Dynamic. Like I said I'll look today.

Cheers,

rpcooper,
Interested to hear the outcome of your DVD connection trials, as the GXP9351 in the VP11-S1 should be top notch. I wonder about the source of the noise in the image you saw. Also, when will you have a chance to hook up an HD-DVD player to it? I would love to know how good it can look when fed great software.

HiFiGuy,

I tried 1080i and 480p outputs from HDMI on the Marantz 9500 and have the same problem although it seems like 480p is the best of the 4 choices available. I used to set the output to 720p for the S3 and got very good results. Ringing is still there in the form of an "edge enhancement" effect even in 480p and so is the noise in the night sky. I'm wondering if the DVE transfer is the problem but it was sourced in 1080p and so it doesn't seem likely. The ringing is absent in the 480i output on component, the noise in the black sky is much less also although it could be that the componet cable path is as bad but is masked by lower detail.

I am very interested in a HD player but the reviews of the two Toshibas and the Samsung have left me cold. I need the higher priced Toshiba for the RS-232 connection since I run with an AMX controller. At the MSRP of $800, plus the programming for the unit, that seems like a lot for what will probably be a throw away in six to ten months.

rocooper
Try to get your hands on a DVD player that does 480i via HDMI. I am using the Marantz DV9600 and the 480i via HDMI is significantly better than through component.
Enjoy!!
Brian

I have a Lexicon RT-20, which I believe will output 480i thru HDMI, but I have it in the analog path (audio and video) and am reluctant to move it out. Just don't know if I want to spend the money on a cheap SD DVD outputing 480i over HDMI when I would have to give up so much on audio performance that I get from the Marantz 9500. And I definitely don't want to spend the money on an expensive unit like the 9600 when you have to figure a highend HD DVD or Blue Ray DVD with great SD output is around the corner.

If I do one or the other I'll report back.

Thanks for your thoughts. As an S3 owner looking at this projector I am interested in what you had to say. It is a shame the 11S1 is as loud as my S3. Was hoping for the Sony whisper quiet.

Also interested to see if you get your 480i HDMI issues resolved as that should look the best one would think with the 11S1 Gennum processing.

Keep your impressions coming. Lastly do you notice a big difference between HD on your S3 which looks great on mine to HD on the 11S1?

The 11S1 roars with fan noise at start-up then settles down to a comparable level with the S3. I am using the "normal" setting not economy. And I used the "high" setting on the S3 which was the comparable. The start-up takes longer also, seems like close to a minute before an image appears.

Because I'm not too keen on a lot of manual changing of my theater system I generally fed the S3 with a 1080i signal, not a 720p, out of my Comcast HD and Direct HD boxes and the D-Theater. These signals used to pass through a Runco 4404 Ultra (after transcoding on an Extron 200) and then split to my hot rod Marquee 9500 and the S3. The images were very good.

Recently I changed the path to the S3 and split the signal after the transcoder feeding the RGB to the S3 and a Key Digital Leeza processor that deinterlaces for the Marquee. In this configuration, HD on the S3 was not as good in 1080i. I started to get jaggies on horizontal motion on both HDTV sources. When I switched to 720p output on Directv (never tried it on Comcast), the problem was greatly reduced. So my reference point is that I was once very happy with HD on the S3 and then, most recently, less happy.

The 11S1 at 1080i from these sources is better; I haven't seen the jaggies but then I haven't spent very much time watching much broadcast content with motion either. But the depth of field and the black detail are better. I never did see this jaggie problem with 1080i D-Theater tapes over the same path with either projector. Of couse it might be related to the program source material. Really program good sources like HD Net, HD Net movies and Discovery HD usually doesn't have that much motion (because I don't watch the motocross and X-game content) so it is hard for me to compare on a casual basis. I haven't tried 720p on the 11S1 but then I don't know why that would be better.

The Dynamic gamma curve will probably be many people's first choice because it adds more "punch" to the picture. Gamma 'e' should also have "curb" appeal. I'll stick with the Standard gamma, which stays close to 2.2.

gregr,

I am setting up with the Theater gamma on SD DVD and Standard gamma on the HD inputs thru RGB. Do you know where the Theater Gamma tracks? Would you "recommend" Standard for all HD sources?

Once you set the gamma, the Marantz default settings seem really nasty although Standard gamma with HD sources require the least amount of "user" adjustment.

gregr,

I am setting up with the Theater gamma on SD DVD and Standard gamma on the HD inputs thru RGB. Do you know where the Theater Gamma tracks? Would you "recommend" Standard for all HD sources?
I have measured, plotted, and viewed all of the gamma curves, and calibrated grayscale, etc. separately for several potentially useable gamma choices. I'll publish all of the gamma curves in my review, as I always do. There is some subjective preference involved in choosing a gamma, so not everyone would agree with my choice. I don't want to provide exact numbers before the review is up on the WSR website, but I find the Theater gamma far too low. I am using the Standard gamma for all sources.

Hi rocooper

How big is your screen?

Rob

Rob,

Screen is a Stewart Studiotech 130, 8 feet wide, 4.5 feet tall.

gregr,

Thanks!

I wish that were true. Actually I am here purely out of my passion. The powers-that-be would rather have me swear never to look here again. I have put my foot in the company mouth more times than I can remember. I am constantly searching for ways to redeem you guys.
:)


I can vouch for Dan on this one. We have a cottage on the same lake as Marantz's National Sales Manager. One weekend we were discussing AVS, and the sales manager told me that Dan is always talking about how Marantz needs a presence at AVS.

So lay off Dan, he gets enough heat from his bosses'.

:D

Dan has been a significant factor contributing to my customer satisfaction level with my Marantz projectors. I have owned the S1, S2, S3 and S4 and may soon be the owner of an 11S1.

Marc

Dan does an excellent job of representing Marantz in this forum. His boss should be proud and give him a raise!. I have thrown some spears his way and he takes heat well. I wish more vendors would communicate with us ( Like TI and Sony!) as well as dan does. Sandy

hi
wow, helmet on.... (seems hotter here than in Beyrouth...)

is there already any value of brightness for this PJ ? i'm sure contrast will be very good already (3000-4000:1) but brightness? 1080pj allows for closer sitting but (!) audio becomes an issue (for instance that bass sweetpost, or stereo etc) also.
So, imho, 1080p pj ideally and in that price range ($15-20K) should provide 1000real ansi at 3-4K:1 contrast ratio (ideally 1500-2000ansi) so user can envisage 4-5meters (scope) screens. Since HD is here (dvds, sat).
I'm curious to see which pj with 1080p res will finally hit the market in this price range with 1500-2000ansi lumens.
other than that, 1080p res pj allows:
smoother image
no structure visibility
a lot less aliasing noise
1080p single chip ARE sharper than 3chip LCOS since there is no convergence issues AND give better "snap " (contrast -brilliance) thant LCOS (which people in general like... hence Chris Dallas's comments).
if money allows, i wouldnt mind owning both 1080p technology.
3DLP 1080p remaining the king i think.

Specs are 6500:1 on/off contrast and 600/700 Lumens. Marantz projectors are usually geared more towards contrast than brightness.

Just went out and bought the Toshiba XAI and did the connections, started the projector then the dvd and after an inital fan wind up the projector shut down. I've got a warning light with no other flashing lights. Manual says my bulb wore out. Had almost 8 hours on it. :(

Just went out and bought the Toshiba XAI and did the connections, started the projector then the dvd and after an inital fan wind up the projector shut down. I've got a warning light with no other flashing lights. Manual says my bulb wore out. Had almost 8 hours on it. :(
Have you:

1. Unplugged the projector for a few minutes and then plugged it back in?

2. Checked the panel on the lamp housing to make sure it is tightly closed? Owners of previous Marantz models sometimes found the PJ not turning on as a protection feature when the lamp housing was not fully closed, or even if it was, opening and reclosing it fixed the glitch.

QQQ,

Thanks for the tips. I did do those things and nothing happened on Saturday. But I did leave the projector unplugged for several hours after my initial reboot. Then replugged it Sunday

Was using my other projector Sunday afternoon and noticed Sunday evening that the Standby light was "green" rather than the warning light "yellow". Can not explain what happened. Projector started (as it had done before) and stayed on. Was able to set up my HD-DVD player and watch a movie.

Great fun. Ordering a spare bulb ASAP.

Quick update. My unit finally landed early last week. Don't know why but Marantz UK seems to be a fair bit behind the US in terms of shipping these units.

My unit seems to be at least 2dB quieter (from 1 meter) than my S4 which I still have here loaned to me by Marantz.

This seems to contradict what some folks have been saying so a bit strange really. The VP11S1 is also considerably brighter than the S4 but that's probably to be expected from this new unit as the S4 has had some 1200+ hours use.

Not had time to fully calibrate the unit yet as I've come across a major problem from the starting block. My ceiling projector mount is almost at the back of my room which meant that the S4 just about managed to squeeze itself into the screen height from my fairly long throw distance. Throw distance on the VP11 is unfortunately not the same. My image on the minimum zoom stop is some 4 inches taller than my screen.

Basically I need to move my ceiling mount/projector forward. For a multitude of reasons this is not going to be an easy job but it will happen in the next week or two (work allowing).

So far from my 10 or so hours of viewing, I have to say I've never come across any projector with the resolving power of this machine. I'm seeing things on familiar video material (which I've seen countless times) that I've never seen before. The unit produces the most razor sharp imaging I've ever seen from any display device.

I'll move the PJ soon and take some pics to post here.

Yeah eric the detail on this thing is incredible isn't it ? The throw was pretty close to what I had with my S2....I did not have to change anything mount wise....just lucky I guess.

Have you fed it a HD DVD signal...wait till you see what that looks like.

Yeah eric the detail on this thing is incredible isn't it ? The throw was pretty close to what I had with my S2....I did not have to change anything mount wise....just lucky I guess.

Have you fed it a HD DVD signal...wait till you see what that looks like.
Indeed I have. Absolutely stunning!

Looking forward to some pictures guys. It is indeed one sweet machine :)

Looking forward to some pictures guys. It is indeed one sweet machine :)
Just need to cut a new hole in the ceiling and patch the other one first (sounds more drastic than it is)

Have you had a chance to play with one yet?

Saw this one few days ago. I were going to saw it for 5mins but end up watching it more than 2 hours and want more!

Something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with this projector! There is ZERO 1-chip motion dithering artifact, either in low or high IRE! I think someone forgot to add this standard 1-chip DLP "feature"! :D

Last year I saw a 1-chip 1080p "prototype" unit which brand should remain nameless was like in a motion dithering city. So I've no hope for the product. But the Marantz 11S1 proved me completely wrong!

Contrast and color and others are all good but the bad news is the COMPLETE lack of motion dithering artifact. The good news is the unreachable high price tag for me. So I'm save now!

Those with $$$ burning in your pocket, go get this one! :)

regards,

Li On

PS: haven't check other 1-chip 1080p DLP yet, but even they all have no motion dithering artifact, the cheapest one is still way out of my reach so I'm saved again!

Originally Posted by QQQ
Have you:

1. Unplugged the projector for a few minutes and then plugged it back in?

2. Checked the panel on the lamp housing to make sure it is tightly closed? Owners of previous Marantz models sometimes found the PJ not turning on as a protection feature when the lamp housing was not fully closed, or even if it was, opening and reclosing it fixed the glitch.

Excellent advice as my Marantz VP12S1 still has this problem. Sometimes when powering up it wont come on then I have to unplug projector for a few seconds until warning light goes out and then plug back up. Most times it comes on after that. A little bit of a pain though.

Mike

Saw this one few days ago. I were going to saw it for 5mins but end up watching it more than 2 hours and want more!

Something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with this projector! There is ZERO 1-chip motion dithering artifact, either in low or high IRE! I think someone forgot to add this standard 1-chip DLP "feature"! :D

Last year I saw a 1-chip 1080p "prototype" unit which brand should remain nameless was like in a motion dithering city. So I've no hope for the product. But the Marantz 11S1 proved me completely wrong!

Contrast and color and others are all good but the bad news is the COMPLETE lack of motion dithering artifact. The good news is the unreachable high price tag for me. So I'm save now!

Those with $$$ burning in your pocket, go get this one! :)

regards,

Li On

PS: haven't check other 1-chip 1080p DLP yet, but even they all have no motion dithering artifact, the cheapest one is still way out of my reach so I'm saved again!

This was my biggest surprise too. Since the DC3 chips I've been able to enjoy DLP but the dithering in panning still bothered me. It is definitely my chief complaint with the Marantz VP12S4. The first thing I did when I put a 11S1 in my room was played a few scenes that I knew were really bad with most DLP's and there was NOTHING.

I've heard this has to do with the motors for the 1080P chips being 3x's faster than the 720P units so they can keep up with the fast motion. For the few days I had the 11S1 I couldn't find anything to complain about. Sure it could use a bit more On/Off contrast (what digital projector couldn't?) but the image it threw was amazing and I will be using it as my reference projector by month's end!!!

This was my biggest surprise too. Since the DC3 chips I've been able to enjoy DLP but the dithering in panning still bothered me. It is definitely my chief complaint with the Marantz VP12S4. The first thing I did when I put a 11S1 in my room was played a few scenes that I knew were really bad with most DLP's and there was NOTHING.

I've heard this has to do with the motors for the 1080P chips being 3x's faster than the 720P units so they can keep up with the fast motion. For the few days I had the 11S1 I couldn't find anything to complain about. Sure it could use a bit more On/Off contrast (what digital projector couldn't?) but the image it threw was amazing and I will be using it as my reference projector by month's end!!!

Kris

Have you seen/review another 1080p dlp yet? wondering also if it has something to do the 6x color wheel of the Marantz. I think the others still use 5x?

Seen a few 1080P RPTVs but projectors are a bit sparse right now, so no, haven't seen any others yet.

Saw this one few days ago. I were going to saw it for 5mins but end up watching it more than 2 hours and want more!

Something is SERIOUSLY WRONG with this projector! There is ZERO 1-chip motion dithering artifact, either in low or high IRE! I think someone forgot to add this standard 1-chip DLP "feature"! :D

That's exactly what I was thinking last night! :D

I'll move the PJ soon and take some pics to post here.

I'm looking forward to your pictures.

Bump..........

More pics (close up) tomorrow (GMT)

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/1241/batcave5ar6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Eric,

It's too bad you don't have the components in a seperate room. You have the heat and the lights to contend with :(

Other than that, very very nice :)

Best,

Great looking room Eric!
(and the equipment choice is stunning! :D )

Have you given up on the Auralex?
I assume those wall panels are sound deadening?
If so, i would love to try that look on my next cinema install. (next year etc)

If i was to stick with single chip, i would be all over this PJ.
But i fancy going very big, and very widescreen next time.(2.35-1 constant height setup etc)
So i will be looking for a brighter three chipper. (DLP or LCOS/SXRD)

But i have to admit that news that the single chip "motion bit reduction" problem has been removed (or reduced to the point it is undetectable), has surprised me.
If i end up going with a smaller screen, i will certainly give the VP-11S1 a demo!

Paul:)

Thanks guys.

John,
Sadly I don't have the facility to place my hardware in an adjoining room. I've completed many such installs even with projectors placed in adjoing rooms firing through optical glass. The total silence and lack of heat is class!

My air-con takes the sting out of the heat generated by the hardware and I have a light proof blind material that sits in front of the equipment rack covering LEDs and such during critical viewing. The Lex's display is set to the off position and remains on just for a few seconds if anything such as volume is adjusted during a movie.

Paul,
I'm firing onto a 2.35-1 aspect 106" wide screen research screen and am finding the image plenty bright enough. Providing you have total light control and non reflective walls the brightness on the VP11 is good enough (IMO) up to 112"-115"

Here's more pics of the Marantz

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/4368/l1000196ax8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/2383/l1000198dr5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And just for fun,


http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8233/roomfrontye1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Very nice more picture please.

I have change to play around a Sharp Z20000.

Sharp is quieter but not by much. I cannot get the 1080p24 to work on the sharp whether using HDMI or DVI. Marantz's bild quality is much superior, I was kind of suprise the sharp's quality's worst than the Benq 8720 consider the price point.

when the ISF came in and did the calibration on both, he said the Marantz is slightly sharper from his measurement but I cannot really tell when I watched movies on them. I like the colors better on the sharp though.

Motion seem a little bit smoother and Blacks seem to be a little deeper on the Marantz, overall I felt the Marantz has slightly more 3d to it.

Marantz's has less background noisy from the dark scenses but the sharp's cleaner overall.

My immpressions are from my from watching HD DVDs Batman Begins twice on each, Constantine and Charlie and the chocolate factory. I only used the high Contrast mode on both with my 137" highpower.

Mike

Eric,

My room isn't perfect either. I still have the PJ in the room. After the first of the year I'm looking into a Whisperflow hushbox.

That's the only visible piece of gear in the room so I'm living with it for now.

Best,

I have change to play around a Sharp Z20000.

Sharp is quieter but not by much. I cannot get the 1080p24 to work on the sharp whether using HDMI or DVI. Marantz's bild quality is much superior, I was kind of suprise the sharp's quality's worst than the Benq 8720 consider the price point.

when the ISF came in and did the calibration on both, he said the Marantz is slightly sharper from his measurement but I cannot really tell when I watched movies on them. I like the colors better on the sharp though.

Motion seem a little bit smoother and Blacks seem to be a little deeper on the Marantz, overall I felt the Marantz has slightly more 3d to it.

Marantz's has less background noisy from the dark scenses but the sharp's cleaner overall.

My immpressions are from my from watching HD DVDs Batman Begins twice on each, Constantine and Charlie and the chocolate factory. I only used the high Contrast mode on both with my 137" highpower.

Mike

Very good to have these comparative remarks. Any chance you could get a hold of a HD-81 to see how to compares to these two?

Very good to have these comparative remarks. Any chance you could get a hold of a HD-81 to see how to compares to these two?

That's quite unlikely, I returned the Sharp and is getting a Sony vw50 for my second system. I am sure the H81 is fantastic but I cannot use it with my setups.

I'm firing onto a 2.35-1 aspect 106" wide screen research screen and am finding the image plenty bright enough. Providing you have total light control and non reflective walls the brightness on the VP11 is good enough (IMO) up to 112"-115"

Eric

Are you using external video processor for the 2.35:1 setup? when I bought the Marantz, I was under the impression it can do vertical stretch for both HD and SD sources. But mine can only do with sd sources.

thanks
Mike

Eric

Are you using external video processor for the 2.35:1 setup? when I bought the Marantz, I was under the impression it can do vertical stretch for both HD and SD sources. But mine can only do with sd sources.

thanks
Mike
Mike,
Using a HTPC as my main source unit at the moment. Waiting for my Lumagen Radiance dem unit to arrive. Still no offical word from Marantz (UK) as to their anamorphic lens solution though I'm inclined to think it will probably be an Isco III unit.

I have change to play around a Sharp Z20000.

Sharp is quieter but not by much. I cannot get the 1080p24 to work on the sharp whether using HDMI or DVI. Mike

I did not try 24 with the Sharp but I did feed it 1080P 48 and it stutters. The pans were not very smooth. I think 60hz is the limit for that machine.

I did not try 24 with the Sharp but I did feed it 1080P 48 and it stutters. The pans were not very smooth. I think 60hz is the limit for that machine.

Alan how did you feel it compares to the Marantz VP-11S1?

Mike,
Using a HTPC as my main source unit at the moment. Waiting for my Lumagen Radiance dem unit to arrive. Still no offical word from Marantz (UK) as to their anamorphic lens solution though I'm inclined to think it will probably be an Isco III unit.


Eric, thanks for the response.
I just bought a Algolith Dragonfly for that.

Very nice setup you have by the way.

thanks
Mike

I did not try 24 with the Sharp but I did feed it 1080P 48 and it stutters. The pans were not very smooth. I think 60hz is the limit for that machine.

sounds like 24p is not an option on the Sharp, How do you like the Sharp so far.

Alan how did you feel it compares to the Marantz VP-11S1?

My time with the Marantz was very limited. Jason was off to install the machine and the customer was nice enough to grant me permission for a quick viewing right before its departure.
I hope to see another one soon and spend a few days with it. Everyone I have talked to who owns this projector are thrilled with it. When I say "those who own it" most are all industry insiders who have the technical knowledge what to look for in a projector. I have not heard of any complaints so Im guessing this projector delivers the goods.

Yesterday evening and this afternoon I watched Over the Hedge and Monster House.....yes animantion. .......they looked nothing short of astonishing on the Marantz. I had the nephews over and the parents...and when the parents went in to check on them....nobody came back out. These movies are gorgeous and the sound design especially on MH is very good.

I have had 3 PJs....a 10HT...an S2 and now the VP11....this thing is a quantum leap to anything I had in the past.....it has about 50+ hours on it and its now time for a full calibration....I can't believe the pic can get any better than it is now.

Rosano could please post some screen shot and your system? I have ordered mine but the hardest part is to wait for it to arrive! Thank in advance.

sounds like 24p is not an option on the Sharp, How do you like the Sharp so far.

Same question. How do you find the Sharp Alan?

Eric, thanks for the response.
I just bought a Algolith Dragonfly for that.

Very nice setup you have by the way.

thanks
Mike
Thanks Mike :)

Is this unit bright enough for 130" diagonal 1.3 gain screen once calibrated? Closest throw distance permissable. Light controlled room.

Is this unit bright enough for 130" diagonal 1.3 gain screen once calibrated? Closest throw distance permissable. Light controlled room.

No, you need something quite a bit brighter than the Marantz for that.

Eric

Are you using external video processor for the 2.35:1 setup? when I bought the Marantz, I was under the impression it can do vertical stretch for both HD and SD sources. But mine can only do with sd sources.

thanks
Mike

There is a firmware update for vertical stretch from HD sources. Get in touch with your dealer. It also updates the handling of 1080p/24 so that you can output 48 from it. The original (first month only) shipments will accept 1080p/24/30/48/60 and play them at 60 (except for 48 directly).

Mike,
Using a HTPC as my main source unit at the moment. Waiting for my Lumagen Radiance dem unit to arrive. Still no offical word from Marantz (UK) as to their anamorphic lens solution though I'm inclined to think it will probably be an Isco III unit.

See above. You should be able to do the vertical stretch from all sources.

No, you need something quite a bit brighter than the Marantz for that.

No, you don't.

If you believe completely in the SMPTE approach, then the light output might be a little low.

But...

CRT lovers have used large screens at well under 300 lumens (BEST case) for years.

When you have extremely high CR, and especially intra-frame (ANSI) CR, along with non-reflective walls and ceilings, you would be amazed how good things can look even at low outputs.

Last year we did a demonstration in Kansas City at an old renovated movie theater that is a conference center as well (very cool place (Screenland) (http://www.screenland.com)). For the demonstration we were using 3 projectors on 3 different Stewart screens. Looked great. During teardown, just for kicks, we hauled our three-chip VP-10S1 which calibrates to 900 real lumens up to the projection booth and opened the curtains to the whole 30 foot width of the main screen (filling the height). With a DVD playing and the lights off it was astonishing. Bright? Nope. But it felt almost as bright as the 35mm projector used, and easily as sharp with better black levels and snap. And absolutely watchable. Doing the math, and including for losses incurred with the perfs, we figured it was something like 2 FtL.

It is all about light control, especially reflected ambient lights. People always tell me they have perfect light control; that their rooms are pitch black. Here's a secret: All rooms are pitch black at midnight with the lights off (unless you live above the arctic circle in June). The measure of how dark a room is is how dark it is with the lights ON. If your room feels dark with the lights on, then you have a good room for HT. And the VP-11 filled a 120" WIDE screen at 2.35:1 aspect ratio really well in our theater at CEDIA.

Bottom line: No matter what size screen you are using, paint your walls and ceilings (particularly up close to the screen) as dark as your decorator will allow, and you can get away with almost any size screen you want. Remember, your eyes are very adaptable to the dark. As long as your ambient light level is low enough to allow you to see a complete gray scale (dynamic range) then you will see everything in the presentation.

There is a firmware update for vertical stretch from HD sources. Get in touch with your dealer. It also updates the handling of 1080p/24 so that you can output 48 from it. The original (first month only) shipments will accept 1080p/24/30/48/60 and play them at 60 (except for 48 directly).

Thanks for letting me know!! I don't really want to use a external scaler in the first place. I gave Jason a call, hopefully I can get the firmware soon.

Mike

Dan is there any way to check the firmware version of the unit. What is the old version # and what is the new #.

No matter what size screen you are using, paint your walls and ceilings (particularly up close to the screen) as dark as your decorator will allow, and you can get away with almost any size screen you want. Remember, your eyes are very adaptable to the dark. As long as your ambient light level is low enough to allow you to see a complete gray scale (dynamic range) then you will see everything in the presentation.
Whilst dark paint is obviously a better choice than lighter colors, I just want to point out that even matt black paint tends to reflect light to varying degrees.

I've always found dark fabrics to be the biggest ambient light killer in HT rooms. Especially those with texture tend to eat ambient light which as Dan pointed brings great rewards.

I'm currently using room treatments wrapped in a dark grey alcantara suede fabric. The ambient light killing properties of this solution is quite incredible!

Until my wife made me come back to earth, my walls and ceilings were covered in low nap black velveteen. Basically the same stuff that Stewart Filmscreen wraps their frames in. No matter how long you sat in there at night, your eyes would never adapt. Like the video equivalent of an anechoic chamber. But alas, like all good things it had to go...
:(

There is a firmware update for vertical stretch from HD sources. Get in touch with your dealer. It also updates the handling of 1080p/24 so that you can output 48 from it. The original (first month only) shipments will accept 1080p/24/30/48/60 and play them at 60 (except for 48 directly).

Dan,

Just want to thank you again for the firmware update. works great!

thanks
Mike

Until my wife made me come back to earth, my walls and ceilings were covered in low nap black velveteen. Basically the same stuff that Stewart Filmscreen wraps their frames in. No matter how long you sat in there at night, your eyes would never adapt. Like the video equivalent of an anechoic chamber. But alas, like all good things it had to go...
:(

Because wives matters...

Adrien, welcome to the madness that is AVS forum!

Don't worry Dan, I've my own messy forum in France too ;)
Thx for the welcome ;)
Hope to meet you soon !

Adrien, welcome to the madness that is AVS forum!

Dan

would there be another firmware update? the 1080p24 input is still not working probably.

thanks
Mike

Dan

would there be another firmware update? the 1080p24 input is still not working probably.

thanks
Mike

It should be...


You have a PM

Adrien, welcome to the madness that is AVS forum!

more like neurotic :)

What did you do with all that velvet?

What did you do with all that velvet?


It was adhesive backed and wasn't going anywhere. I actually had to cover over it with 3/8 drywall (not fun to work with at all) and create new walls and ceilings.

Live and learn.

Although due to the slightly decreased interior dimensions of the room the sonics have improved.

Does Marantz usually announce new projectors at Cedia or CES?

Something special you are looking for?

Dan Miller,
Yes please. :D

Dan: does Marantz offer any kind of trade-in program? I work for a vendor that offers such a program (different technology) and I am wondering if you all do. I have a Marantz VP12S3 that I love. I'm building a new house and am thinking of upgrading to the new 1080p Marantz. Three questions: 1) do you all offer a trade-in program? 2) what is the Marantz differentiator in 1080p vs a Pearl (for example, a different processor (like Faroudja)? 3) What are the reasons for the disparity in pricing?

Uh oh! It's gonna be Marantz France v. Marantz USA!!!

Who's takin' bets? :)

I'll let Dan answer...
I'm pretty sure he speaks english better that I do :)
(so I bet on Dan :D )

Heres a question? I understand that the Marantz VP-11S1 will do 24 hz over hdmi using hd dvd player and supported media however will you need to use a scaler such as a lumagen hdq which does 24hz in order to watch judderless standard dvd?

Heres a question? I understand that the Marantz VP-11S1 will do 24 hz over hdmi using hd dvd player and supported media however will you need to use a scaler such as a lumagen hdq which does 24hz in order to watch judderless standard dvd?

Yes. For now.

Thanks Dan,will the Marantz VP-11S1 have a solution for this or are you making a general technology statement? it would be great if the marantz could take the place of the processor in this aspect but im not sure how it could

It absolutely could. The Gennum processor inside the projector is the same as the one in the Crystalio II. The problem is getting the engineers to write new software. Their question to me is, "how many more units will we sell because of it?"

The problem is that writing soft/firm ware is much more expensive than hardware engineering, so usually unless there is a "problem", it doesn't happen. If I push HARD I can get it, but I have to answer the above question and if I commit to a certain number in order to get some really cool feature and it doesn't happen, then I lose credibility for the next time. You have to pick your battles.

Dan I definately understand where youre coming from, I think that if you gave people a choice they would love to have this option, the projector is undoubtedly one of the holy grails in its class, no one wants you to lose credibility, if you lose WE lose. With that said, if people can find the final reason (judderless for sd) to either get rid of or save money in not buying a processor with this projector I feel that would have an imapact on sales and would certainly I believe be a technological first, everyone wins :)

Sorry for the interruption, but anowner of a S4 would like to know which 1080p varieties would it accept through its hdmi input. It's working with the lastest (published) firmware.

cheers

juan

Dan.....how do you check the PJ to see what software it has.....and what is the latest version software.

Thanks

Sorry for the interruption, but anowner of a S4 would like to know which 1080p varieties would it accept through its hdmi input. It's working with the lastest (published) firmware.

cheers

juan

1080p/24

Dan.....how do you check the PJ to see what software it has.....and what is the latest version software.

Thanks

Easiest: If you can do vertical stretch from an HD source, then you have it.

Pardon my ignorance Dan....so how would I do that?......If i am display a 16x9 imagine on my screen.....what would function would I ask the PJ to do in its menus sustem....

Again.....Thanks

In the main picture adjust menu, at the bottom, you will see five picture modes. Normal, Full, Zoom, Through, and Vertical Stretch.

Excellent....thanks. And yes it is there.

Rosano:

Use a 2.35:1 HD source and make sure it really stretches :)

I recall that it was on the menu of the older firmware but not functional.

Best,

Will do.....thanks John.

1080p/24

Great info!! So we would be able to choose whether the hd-dvd/bd player or the pj would do the downresizing for 1080p/24 native material...

cheers

juan

I do have the V stretch option....

Dan,

I forgot to ask you what frequency is output 1080p/24 ¿48, 72, 96...?

cheers

juan

60

¿3-2-3-2-3-2...?

Dan
what hdmi version is on the current S1? If not 1.3, will there be a software/hardware upgrade made available? Dsschaefer

Dan
what hdmi version is on the current S1? If not 1.3, will there be a software/hardware upgrade made available? Dsschaefer

No there will not be. To upgrade would require hardware and that's alot to ask the engineers for the ability to do PS3 a tiny bit better than it looks now.

so Dan should I retire my lumagen HDQ ? :)

To get 24 Hz from SD Film, you will still need to use that. The 11 will play back multiples of 24 but will not generate 24 internally.

Thanks for reply, Im thinking of doing a 2:35 screen for the 11s1 what screen material and maxium diagonal size can you recommend? I would definately like to stay within or above the 12ft lamberts spec I know in the video shot at cedia you specified 130" screen while maintaining the recommended ft lamberts spec however what about those of us who want to go the 2:35 route, one of the reasons I didnt go that route with my previous pj was because as good as I felt the image was I was concerned that since the optical system in that projector was not given special attention in manufacturing I didnt want to make it worse by putting another lens in front of it, however with the marantz I have no such reservations I just need a maximum diagonal size and screen recommendation (studiotech 130?) or do I go the safe route and get another highpowerscreen but this time in a 2:35 format? another question that ive been trying to get an answer to was is there a rapid decline in brightness like the ruby that uses a xenon bulb or is it a more gradual decline?
Thanks for your help, not many posting about the 11s1 so resources seem to be limited at the moment

bump.

I love this PJ with the PC desktop and surfing the web with the family and friends.
Never seen better.

Make sure you turn the "cleartype" option off.

It ain't half-bad for HDTV sources, too. ;)

For anyone from Marantz who reviews this forum, I'm a VP12-S3L owner, and a happy one. But as much as I'd like to replace my two-year old unit with a new VP11 for our newly-built movie room, given current prices for used projectors that won't happen any time soon.

I don't regret spending over $20,000 on this, and I believe it's better than many 1080 units I've seen recently, but I won't spend that kind of money again without a program from Marantz that alleviates some of the depreciation pain.

If you're selling these like hotcakes, more power to you, but I have to believe that when sales slow down, offering something to loyal VP12 owners will help increase the numbers again. In the meantime, I'll wait a few more years to join the HD bandwagon. By then, I'm sure there will be a VP11S3 or S4.

In the AVS Club under Great Deals you can get a Refurbished VP-11S1 for an astoudingly low price from an authorized Marantz Dealer.

That is a great price.
I wonder which areas of those units needed attention.

They only have eight left.

I think it would depend on if you wanted brightness and black levels or the better colorwheel if you preferred the 15s1 or the 11s1, Robert. The 11s1 and the 15s1 both come with same lenss and chip, and obviously the dual iris and the color wheel, among other things, make the 15s1 somewhat better in those two areas but also make it somewhat worse in terms of color accuracy and dithering.

I had to pay more than that, by a bit, for my 15s1, hence the savings I think Dan was talking about, but I prefer the things that the 15s1 does better (blacks and extra brightness to get more blacks) and comes with a 3 year warranty.

The only thing I worry about is that I might really want the 11S2. Then Ill be in trouble.

I asked Dan about the refurbed 11 and the 15, and told him to assume they were the same price. His reply: "get the refurbed 11 and a Stewart StudioTek 130 G3 and you'l never look back." I went with Dan;s recommendation.

I pretty much summed up above what a bunch of Marantz Project Managers, from different countries, US, France, and a Marantz dealer in the UK stated about the 15s1 and 11s1, including Dan.

I saw what Dan said on the other thread, too. If you care more about the color wheel, slight better colors, and slightly less noticeable ditherng, in my opinion (ONLY) you did the smart thing, based on what they all said.

What size is your old screen? Is it a firehawk? I might be interested. 8)

I am also wrestling with this advice now....I have a 96x54 Firehawk and I'm seriously considering going to an SST 130....the VP11 doesn't really need the help of the Firehawk to bring out the blacks.My room is totally light controlled also with dark crimson walls and ceilings....its 13X24.

By the way has anyone done the switchover....going from a grey type screen to white screen.....what were the results like.

What Dan wrote me on FireHawk vs. StudioTek 130 G3 w/Marantz 11:
"Don't need FH because in dark room [bat cave]. ST130 has much more uniformity, more accurate colors, and all the brightness you'll need [100" diag]. Might feel at 1st that the ST130 doesn't have the pop of the FW, but that is an artificial feeling from the FH. The ST130 will be much more accurate."

First, on dithering, Kris Derring posted in AVS that there is absolutely no dithering with the TI 1080p chip, making it a non-issue.

Second, I do not want to put words in Dan's mouth, but I believe it is clear from what he emailed me that the fact I had a dark room, and a 100" diag. screen were important for him to conclude that I would get adequete brightness from the 11. What he emailed me would not neccessarily apply to other set ups.

First, on dithering, Kris Derring posted in AVS that there is absolutely no dithering with the TI 1080p chip, making it a non-issue.

That's not entirely true. The seven segment wheel has a LOT to do with lack of dithering.

Yes, I would think that all of the 11s1 at 400 plus lumens in its best contrast mode would light up the 100" quite nicely.

Personally, I have had a couple of matte white screens, the firehawk, and the Carada BW, and I liked the firehawk the best, by far. Color fidelity and uniformity on the firehawk is good enough for me/most, but I have heard that the Stewart Studiotek 130 and my Carada BW are about as good as you can get for colors and uniformity.

Im not putting words in anyone's mouths, just repeating what they all are saying in that other thread. Uncle Eric is the UK dealer, there is a French Marantz Product Manager, and there is our very own Dan Miller. I believe that I paraphrased what they were saying above.

Rosano,

In my opinion the Firehawk makes the blacks on even the Sharp 12k darker, and more believable. I owned the Sharp 12k for over 2 years and it is a beast in absolute black level, black floor, in its best contrast mode. I wouldnt be too quick to give it up, without at first seeing the other.

My old HT was completely light controlled with dark navy blue carpets, dark blue walls and ceiling, blacked out windows, and even filtered LED displays and the firehawk made the blacks more believable for me.

Kind of similarly to the impression that the ND filter has given for those who have tried it and posted on the ND filter/RS1 thread.

My only concern with the FH (I own one too-- a microperf) is the uniformity issue. The emulsion used is very high gain and if you put up the corsshatch and move to different seats, you can see different parts of the hatch get brighter and dimmer. This is alleviated somewhat in a long throw situation (mine again), but still exists. That, and being able to "see" the screen (those who do, know what I mean here; those who don't-- nevermind).

I guess Im one of the lucky ones. 8)

I didnt really notice the screen when an image was up, but as I recall the G1 firehawk that I had was noticeably "sparklie" from some angles, and up very close, when an image was not projected on it.

Its my understanding that the later generations (G2 and even more G3) are even less noticeable, although I dont believe I have seen one yet. The ones at some of the dealers I frequent are G1s, I think, which dont look bad to me at all.

I also recall that the Firehawk screen came with a minimum recommended throw ratio (dont remember what it was,) certainly for some of the reason that you describe, Dan.

Hello Dan I realize that you are in the business. I just wondered if you have had a chance to see the OPtoma HD80, and if so please tell me in what areas the Marantz would be better? I am curious as I thought the Optoma looked better than the Sim 3000 (brighter with better color saturation. It semms hard to justify a $18,000 price tag when this OPtoma is lurking around at an unthinkable price/performance. I wish I could do an a/b

Thanks Joey

I havent seen the HD80(, HD81-LV, or HD81,) but based on what I have read on its bigger brother, the HD81, I could think of a few. One HUGE one for certain would be brand/product reliability.

Optoma's recent (last several years) products havent been the best QCed, and I would wager most returned/exchanged on these forums. That could have changed with the HD80 and HD81-LV, however I believe that Jeff, or maybe it was Art, or both, had to have a 2nd unit already.

Personally, if I bought an Optoma projector (which at this point I would never do unless there were several months worth of problem free reports on the Optoma threads) it would be EXPECTING to have to deal with takedowns, returns and exchanges.

No there will not be. To upgrade would require hardware and that's alot to ask the engineers for the ability to do PS3 a tiny bit better than it looks now.
This is a little odd considering this press release sent out by Marantz in May:

MAHWAH, NJ, May 10, 2007 – Marantz America, a renowned manufacturer of advanced home entertainment solutions, today introduced an upgraded version of its groundbreaking VP-11S1 High-Definition DLP® front projector that features HDMI 1.3 inputs with Deep Color™ capability. With its HDMI 1.3 Deep Color™ capability and 12 bit color depth, the upgraded VP-11S1 is capable of displaying an astonishing 68 Billion colors! All VP-11S1 units now shipping to retailers will incorporate the upgrade, with no increase in the suggested retail price of $19,999. In addition, Marantz will be offering a service solution for units currently in the field which will allow all existing VP-11S1 owners to have their projectors upgraded to HDMI 1.3 with Deep Color (Pricing for the upgrade will be announced shortly.)

Yes, but Dan's answer was six months before the press release.

catdaddy I would venture over to the HD80 long and positive thread and ask a question of guitarman he seems to be the Dan Miller of Optoma. I have yet to hear of a problem with the unit and I have ran it at least 4 hours a day with absolulty no problems. If I would have known Optoma had many problems in the past maybe I would of also be en hesitant, but I didn't know of any . It just looked so good after viewing projectors at 5 times the price I had to jump on it. I mean this unit is under $3000.00 and has tremandous light output. a local dealer has this on a 200 inch grey screen and its looks bright enough. Good Luck on your adventure!
Joey

Hey Joey,

If they have turned it around, on QC/service issues, at $3k that looks like a light cannon for a great deal. I think if they hadnt had so many service issues on the 77/78/79 plus the 81 they definitely would have been one I would have looked at hard with their 81 or 81-LV.

And yes, I have followed Tom and the Optoma threads when I was considering the 81. Then, I ended up with an HD1 instead.

I had posted earlier that Kris Deering had said there was no dithering with 1080p DLP projectors. Dan replied that he disagreed and that a 6-segment color wheel had a lot to do with dithering.

Some research revealed there is no conflict between the two statements. All DLP 1080p DLP projs. to date, and thus, all the ones that Kris has seen, use a 7-segment color wheel (BenQ-8); hence, according to Dan, no dithering.

This, of course, highlights the difference between the 7-segment color wheel VP-11S1 and 6-segment color wheel VP-15S1.

The 11 has no dithering (and apparently more accurate colors). By going to a 6-segment wheel in the 15, you get increased brightness and contrast, but the potential for dithering (and apparenty less accurate colors.

The 11 has no dithering (and apparently more accurate colors). By going to a 6-segment wheel in the 15, you get increased brightness and contrast, but the potential for dithering (and apparenty less accurate colors.


Yes, thats exactly what I, and the Marantz guys, said that you seemed to be disagreeing with earlier. Thanks! 8)

Well, except for "no" dithering. A "little less dithering" would probably be better. Also, the dual iris along with the 6-segment color wheel add to the more contrast and brightness of the 15s1.

I hate to raise the dead but im looking to buy one of these. Does anyone know were the date of manufacture is on these units so i can tell the seller where to look? Also does anyone know the cut off date for the upgraded deep color hdmi in revision is?

PS: all revisions slow down the color wheel to 48hz for 24p input correct?

I'm not sure what you mean by the cutoff date, but the upgrades are firmware, hardware, or both.

You can tell if the hardware was done, because there will be deepcolor stuff in the menu.

The hardware mod can be done on any S1 that didn't receive it. It was always a "pay for" upgrade. It is also pretty meaningless, because there are no deepcolor sources.

Not all revisions will slow down the wheel though. And the first firmware update did it, but not correctly.

What you want is the latest firmware that was done at the same time as the deepcolor mod. It not only fixes the colorwheel properly, but applies Gennum interpolation to the repeated frame to smooth the judder even more.

the service manual is dated for (6/20/2006) and has the deep setting on page 17, but in the same breath they have hdmi listed as HDMI 1.1.

http://us.marantz.com/DFU_VP-11S1_Final_eng.pdf

I wonder if they just forgot to change the release date since the deep color fix was dated for (5/11/2007)

Im trying to find something i can tell the guy to look for to find out if it has the deep color mod.

Is it true that Marantz is getting out of HT business?...

Not anything I've heard...

Hello all,

I just picked one of these up and am looking for any tips/tricks on set up and calibration. I.e. which color temp is most accurate, what mode (standard, theater,etc) is best to use, advantages and disadvantages of economy vs. standard lamp mode, iris at 3 or 6, etc.

Room is darkened. Screen is studiotek 130, 1.78:1 and 97" diagonal, no perf. Walls are medium color palette with dark drapes in back and on back sides.

Any more info I'll happily supply to help.

Thanks!
Brian

PS When I received the projector the lamp was showing a problem and I found that the screw that secures it to the projector is missing (not the panel screw), but the one on the bottom corner. What size, threading is it so I can get a replacement.

Not anything I've heard...

But out of the DLP projector market as their have been no new releases?