The VP11S1 retail price is $19,999.00 confirmed by Marantz
The map is $18,000.00
New throw distance and up dated Gennum chip :)

Glen

Design sucks!!!!
Bet the picture quality doesn't :)

Well isn't that an enlightning posts!!!!....How do you really feel???

$18,000.00 :eek:
I'm a total Marantz fan, yet even i had to gulp at that for a single chipper.
Before Tryg starts to get his teeth into this thread, i would say that is too much(IMHO) even if there wasn't a Ruby around.(The Ruby "streets" for around $11350 upwards in the uk :rolleyes: )
(i assume since the UK street is higher than the US MSRP this is OK to mention here?)
I understand that the chip has been upgraded to 1080p, but what other things have increased the price so much from an S4?

I can assure you that has totally finished any thoughts i had of getting one.(even though i have two spare bulbs that will fit it!)

I assume it will be stunning and class leading, but i think i may as well wait for 3 chip 1080 after all.
If i'm going to pay big(and 3 chip 1080 will be big), i may as well get the whole shooting match.

I better go tell the S3 i still love her...(for now! :D )

Hang on a moment though...
I've just checked the exchange rate, and it works out at £9500.
I didn't realise we are getting nearly two dollars to the pound at the moment.
I incorrectly assumed it would work out/convert to £11/12,000.

Still expensive, but i will have to see how much it streets for ;)

Seems very tough to pay $18000 MSRP when the Ruby is $10,000 MSRP, I think I read the Optoma too, and hopefully the Sharp as well. When you put on top of that the Cinetron will be $6k MSRP, seems too high for sure.

$18,000.00 :eek:
I'm a total Marantz fan, yet even i had to gulp at that for a single chipper.


Join the club. Marantz you can be serious? Dan Miller is the pricing correct?

Im sure they are serious. We will get the standard response too, optics, etc. I am tired of the pricing talk because anything can be justified.

Marantz has a somewhat different demographic than Infocus and BenQ. They will sell this projector in adequate numbers. Look at Runco...they've been selling at a premium for years.

TA

The VP11S1 retail price is $18,000.00 confirmed by Marantz
New throw distance and up dated Gennum chip :)

Glen

You received that info from Marantz? Last I heard MSRP on the VP11s1 was 20k.

Unless things have changed, it's going to be $18,500 or in marketing price, $18,499. Yeah, at that level the $1 difference is huge ;)

Best,

Marantz has a somewhat different demographic than Infocus and BenQ. They will sell this projector in adequate numbers. Look at Runco...they've been selling at a premium for years.

TA

I understood this when I bought and paid a premium for my VP-12S3 over the Sharp and Sim2. However when Sharp is releaseing their 1080P DLP projector at $10,000 I would of thought the premium would remain the same as they carried through to the new range of 1080P DLP's i.e RRP of $15,000 for the Marantz VP-11S1. $18,500 is more than I thought they would price it at and a lot harder to swallow. Looks like I will keep my S3 for a bit longer and have another look at the Sony Ruby.

Spizz,
I am seriously considering the Ruby again as well.
Edgeyboy had one for the weekend, and reported no/minimal convergence errors and the screen halo was gone.
He did say he could see slight corner brightness, but a lot less than when we first viewed at Christmas.
I sometimes think the S3 is just too damned good to even think of any upgrade except 3 chip 1080 DLP! ;)

I went from marantz VP12 S3 to Ruby. Huge upgrade guys.

Well, I'm not going to talk about price except to say that we are competitive. We will outperform every other 1080p projector on the market. The S4 at 720 beats a Ruby in every area except screen door if you are sitting close unless you count dynamic inaccuracies as being better. The VP-11S1 will be worth every penny and then some. And the MSRP is $19,999.

Flamesuit is on.

Hang on a moment though...
I've just checked the exchange rate, and it works out at £9500.
I didn't realise we are getting nearly two dollars to the pound at the moment.
I incorrectly assumed it would work out/convert to £11/12,000.

Still expensive, but i will have to see how much it streets for ;)


Its out on preoder in the UK for less than 9K (ok,by 5pence), and the S4 just had a 2k price drop as well.

Dan,

Is the throw ratio shorter than the S4? Are there going to be different lense options like on the S4?

regards

Yes and Yes

My dealer, who is a Marantz direct dealer, told me that MSRP is at $18,000. More info coming from Marantz in the next couple of weeks.

After reading Dan's post, I guess he was wrong .. or it is still in flux. He was looking at an official release/email from Marantz and reading it to me after I asked him about it.

...The S4 at 720 beats a Ruby in every area except screen door if you are sitting close unless you count dynamic inaccuracies as being better...
As far as Ruby "dynamic inaccuracies" are you talking about RBE, dithering, and false contours? :) :)

The S4 at 720 beats a Ruby in every area except screen door if you are sitting close unless you count dynamic inaccuracies as being better.

You left out picture quality, too. I have seen them both as well, and I didnt believe it was even close, and neither did my dealer who had an S4 up and took it down after he saw the Ruby. He is a direct dealer for both Marantz and Sony.

Spizz,
I am seriously considering the Ruby again as well.
Edgeyboy had one for the weekend, and reported no/minimal convergence errors and the screen halo was gone.
He did say he could see slight corner brightness, but a lot less than when we first viewed at Christmas.
I sometimes think the S3 is just too damned good to even think of any upgrade except 3 chip 1080 DLP! ;)

Indeed Paul's S3 looks absolutely stunning with HD material, and I can only begin to imagine what the VP11 S1 will look like with HD.

And the MSRP is $19,999.

:(

Dan is the throw longer than the S3? Will the different lens throw options add to the price?

I have the solution. The projector must be MSRP 17.995 + lens. I am sure the Marantz will be super performer. I think the biggest pressure will come from other 1080p dlps. Some company might just blow the whole pricing structure. Good for consumers in the short time frame but in the long run is it so?

Dan,

Price change again, eh?

Best,

So, it's 1 dollar short of being in the $20,000+ forum! :rolleyes:

I'm sure it will be great, but i have decided to give "upgrading" a miss this year.

Better remote though...
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060417/mar1_09.jpg

The VP11S1 MAP is at $18,000.00 and the retail price is at $20,000.00

Glen :)

The S4 at 720 beats a Ruby in every area except screen door if you are sitting close unless you count dynamic inaccuracies as being better. .

No it does not. Neither does it resolve the 1080p detail a Ruby resolves nor can it touch the lack of haze with some kinds of dark material (and there is dark material not affected by highlight compression artifacts, for the rest it's a matter of taste if you prefer haze over compression or compression over haze). (Not to mention rainbow artifacts, dithering noise and error diffusion artifacts the Ruby does not have).

I'm not going to argue. I'm not talking about taste. I'm talking about accuracy and it can be proven. Unless you are in the industry and get paid to spend the countless number of hours doing controlled tests in controlled environments, then it is just a judgement call. The Ruby is a good projector for 10k. It isn't a 20k projector that is losing money, or even a 15k projector for that matter. And when you create a test signal that has 1080p resolution, then yes, the Sony wins. Unfortunately, the best real world video material doesn't even begin to approach that level of detail. So when you level the field and turn off dynamic black(DBX for video?... It is easy to show test signals that demonstrate exactly how bad that circuit is as far as accuracy goes), there wasn't a person present (and I showed over 50) who didn't chose the S4 (without knowing what they were choosing too...)

Dan will the throw be longer than the S3? Will the different lens options for those that require the throw similar to that of the S4 be more for the VP-11S1?

Dan Miller
There is a reason why the vp-11s1 is coming to the market. 1080i to 1080p video processing is now reaching a new level and BD ROMs and HD-DVD will bring us 1080p. This will benefit both Ruby and Vp-11s1.

Mhafner´s point has merit in the all dark scene with small brightness variations. I am sure vp-12s4 is very competitive in content with even a small amount of really bright details.

Unless you are in the industry and get paid to spend the countless number of hours doing controlled tests in controlled environments, then it is just a judgement call.

This makes sense then, because those would probably be the only people who would buy the S4 over the Ruby. 8) (Specially since they get the Marantz discount because they work for them. 8))

Just kidding, Dan .. even though I am one of the countless non-industry insiders whose judgement severely leans on the Ruby versus the S4.

Dan,

Can the S4 do a multiple of 24Hz playback (like 48Hz) for film? How about the 11S1? If not with a 1080i60 or 1080p60 signal, can either one accept 1080p24 or 1080p48 from an external scaler and display at a multiple of 24Hz (while adjusting the colorwheel timing)?

--Darin

I don't own a Ruby or an S4 but I have been in places where they had both of these in the same room fed the exact same HD signal & I can EASILY tell you that the S4 destroys the Ruby in almost EVERY area.

PQ...the S4 is still the best PJ out there in the sub $15K.

I own an Optoma H79 but soon I will be upgrading to the very best & I'm sure it will be the VP-11S1.

I don't own a Ruby or an S4 but I have been in places where they had both of these in the same room fed the exact same HD signal & I can EASILY tell you that the S4 destroys the Ruby in almost EVERY area.

I dont own a Ruby or an S4, anymore, either.

What do you mean by "Destroys the Ruby in every area?" What every area? The only important thing is picture quality/appearance.

Even Dan Miller admits that 1080p content would look better on the Ruby and 1080i can be properly deinterlaced to full 1080p by the Ruby itself or a Vantage or Gennum processor. That makes a lot of HD content from various sources already look admittedly better on the Ruby.

I agree with Dan on that regard, but I disagree that other non-1080 content would look better on the S4. I owned a Sharp 12000 and there just was no contest and Ive seen the S4 at my local dealer's and even they profess that the Ruby blows it away.

My local dealer is a Marantz direct dealer and a Sony direct dealer and they had the S4 up for the longest time, until the Ruby came along. They have an optimal, pitch black, setup in their main media room.

Their GM says the exact opposite of what you say. He told me the only thing that he has seen that rivals the picture quality of the Ruby is the C3X, that he saw at a demo in CEDIA (period.)

PQ...the S4 is still the best PJ out there in the sub $15K.

The best one made by Marantz, yes.

Dan will the throw be longer than the S3? Will the different lens options for those that require the throw similar to that of the S4 be more for the VP-11S1?

For any given throw distance the screen will be larger than before, due to the larger chip.

We have increased slightly the range of zoom, so this generation we will accomplish with two lenses what previously took three.

i'm waiting to see an S4 that can beat a Ruby. Or even come close.

I'm not going to argue. I'm not talking about taste. I'm talking about accuracy and it can be proven. Unless you are in the industry and get paid to spend the countless number of hours doing controlled tests in controlled environments, then it is just a judgement call. The Ruby is a good projector for 10k. It isn't a 20k projector that is losing money, or even a 15k projector for that matter. And when you create a test signal that has 1080p resolution, then yes, the Sony wins. Unfortunately, the best real world video material doesn't even begin to approach that level of detail. So when you level the field and turn off dynamic black(DBX for video?... It is easy to show test signals that demonstrate exactly how bad that circuit is as far as accuracy goes), there wasn't a person present (and I showed over 50) who didn't chose the S4 (without knowing what they were choosing too...)


Too bad these people didn't was on your "shoot-out"

I went from marantz VP12 S3 to Ruby. Huge upgrade guys.


You left out picture quality, too. I have seen them both as well, and I didnt believe it was even close, and neither did my dealer who had an S4 up and took it down after he saw the Ruby. He is a direct dealer for both Marantz and Sony.

And the other guy that went from a S4 to a Ruby. But maybe they didn't liked rainbows and dithering noise as much as your guys ;)

Hello all,

I have been reading these forums for a long time, but this is my first post! My father recently bought the Marantz VP12S4 projector and had it set up. I want to get him a nice DVD player or another cool accessory to go with it for his upcomming birthday, so I would appreciate any input that could help me decide. I would like to spend under $200, and must spend under $350. He watches mostly DVDs, so I would rather not get him the new HD-DVD player unless it also does a great job with DVDs (I might justify paying more for the HD). Also, would one really notice the difference between a low end DVD player and a new upscaling one with HDMI? Do players in this price range offer a significant improvement over the internal scaling/deinterlacing of the projector? I am curious about the Oppo player I have heard about also. It got great scores on the "Secrets" benchmark review, but does passing thier tests translate to real world proformance? Sorry for all the questions and for posting a DVD question on this thread, but I really want to know from people who have a Marantz or similar projector.

Thanks in advance!

oh... this thread was about Marantz vp11s1. I think all are thankfull that Dan takes time to answer questions. Perhaps it would be fun to hear about the absolute performance of vp11s1 without reference to any other projector not to start a mud slinging debate.

When do the first customers have this new projector in their homes?

pistonsfan,

Try the DVD player forum.

"Also, would one really notice the difference between a low end DVD player and a new upscaling one with HDMI?"

You can get both within your desired price range.

Also, would one really notice the difference between a low end DVD player and a new upscaling one with HDMI? Do players in this price range offer a significant improvement over the internal scaling/deinterlacing of the projector?

Thanks in advance!

Even though this isn't the DVD forum, one of the biggest advantages of the S4 (and the VP-11S1) is the VXP processing by Gennum. If you can find a DVD player that can output 480i over the HDMI output, you will not see a better image from standard definition DVD.

I'm not going to argue. I'm not talking about taste. I'm talking about accuracy and it can be proven. Unless you are in the industry and get paid to spend the countless number of hours doing controlled tests in controlled environments, then it is just a judgement call. The Ruby is a good projector for 10k. It isn't a 20k projector that is losing money, or even a 15k projector for that matter. And when you create a test signal that has 1080p resolution, then yes, the Sony wins. Unfortunately, the best real world video material doesn't even begin to approach that level of detail. So when you level the field and turn off dynamic black(DBX for video?... It is easy to show test signals that demonstrate exactly how bad that circuit is as far as accuracy goes

Let's just agree that both projectors are not perfect and have their issues. As far as accuracy is concerned both as well. In the end you chose what is the lesser evil to you (rainbows, white compression, SDE, noise, haze whatever...) and affordable.

Dan,

Does the VP11S1 have an improved Gennum processor from the one in the S4, or the same one?

For any given throw distance the screen will be larger than before, due to the larger chip.

We have increased slightly the range of zoom, so this generation we will accomplish with two lenses what previously took three.

The second lense would be longer throw or shorter? would it have a special 2.35 vertical stretch mode? Even with hd content?

cheers

juan

For any given throw distance the screen will be larger than before, due to the larger chip.

We have increased slightly the range of zoom, so this generation we will accomplish with two lenses what previously took three.

That doesn't parse very well in casual reading...

For argument's sake, let's say I have a projector on my ceiling at 2.0 screen widths. I can replace that PJ directly with the VP11S1 and still hit my screen size with one of the two lenses, right?

As long as that's true, life is good.

Cheers,

Dan,

Does the VP11S1 have an improved Gennum processor from the one in the S4, or the same one?

Improved (twice as powerful).

The second lense would be longer throw or shorter? would it have a special 2.35 vertical stretch mode? Even with hd content?

cheers

juan

There will be two lenses: Standard and Long. The standard lens will be ~1.45 - 2.1 x width. The long lens will be ~2.1 - 3.2.

The scaler will do vertical stretch for use with an anamorphic lens. And yes with HD content.

That doesn't parse very well in casual reading...

For argument's sake, let's say I have a projector on my ceiling at 2.0 screen widths. I can replace that PJ directly with the VP11S1 and still hit my screen size with one of the two lenses, right?

As long as that's true, life is good.

Cheers,

See above.

:)

Dan,

I knew it was right, I was just baiting you to post the details on the throws for the two lenses :D

Dan,
Like in Indiana Jones, it looks like you chose wisely to go with the Gennum! Realta does have better marketing though.:)

Ericglo

Well, I'm not going to talk about price except to say that we are competitive. We will outperform every other 1080p projector on the market. The S4 at 720 beats a Ruby in every area except screen door if you are sitting close unless you count dynamic inaccuracies as being better. The VP-11S1 will be worth every penny and then some. And the MSRP is $19,999.

Flamesuit is on.

Cool, I look forward to seeing one.....

Dan how is the fan noise compared to the S3 and S4? Lastly when will the manual be up to download?

I hate to bring back the comparison discussion but I saw the Ruby and it seemed to be completely lacking any image processing circuitry to reduce de-interlacing jaggys even for SD material. It ended up introducing a lot of artifacts that drew me out of the movie that was playing. Something that was quite annoying. It may have been set up wrong. Not sure. Has anyone else noticed the same thing?

The S4 did a fantastic job on this, so I am assuming that 11S1 will do the same.

There will be two lenses: Standard and Long. The standard lens will be ~1.45 - 2.1 x width. The long lens will be ~2.1 - 3.2.

The scaler will do vertical stretch for use with an anamorphic lens. And yes with HD content.

Yahoooooo!!!

You know if would be real this?

http://www.cinenow.com/fr/news-2734.html

cheers

juan

The same in english

http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news-11589-Full+HD+video+projector+by+Marantz%2C+the+VP-11S1.html

cheers

juan

What an idiot.....I am....here I am reading this thread for a few days and all the while I thought we were talking about the VP10 S1...three chipper....when obviously this is something wayyyy different and pretty much looks like the the S2 I have now....LOL.......and it dies 1080P......THINGS JUST GOT WAYYYY INTERESTING !!!!!! Price does hurt a little though but man if this thing live up to its heritage and I don't see why not....

Dan can I literally drop the S2 and use this new baby with the same mouting bracket?....and keep the same throw distance?

That link is broken. For the correct page, click here (http://www.akihabaranews.com/news-11589-Full+HD+video+projector+by+Marantz%2C+the+VP-11S1.html)

What an idiot.....I am....here I am reading this thread for a few days and all the while I thought we were talking about the VP10 S1...three chipper....when obviously this is something wayyyy different and pretty much looks like the the S2 I have now....LOL.......and it dies 1080P......THINGS JUST GOT WAYYYY INTERESTING !!!!!! Price does hurt a little though but man if this thing live up to its heritage and I don't see why not....

Dan can I literally drop the S2 and use this new baby with the same mouting bracket?....and keep the same throw distance?

Throw distances have changed, but zoom has increased, so the chances are yes.

Dan :)

Can you give us some spec's on this 1080p projector?
brightness, contrast ratio, can this unit do 2:35 CH on SD and HD,
Color wheel type, type of bulb and any other info........


Aloha Glen

bump

not quite yet

When is the VP11 S1 being released ?

Price: $20K ($23K with optional long-throw lens)

Technology Highlights: 1920x1080 single-chip DLP, broadcast grade 10-bit video processing by Gennum (accepts native 1080p signals), dual HDMI and component inputs, vertical lens shift, fluid dynamic bearing for quiet color wheel operation, vertical stretch mode for anamorphic lens option, adjustable three-position iris, precision optics by Konica-Minolta.

Release date- June/July

Thanks Spizz. Will it be a Ruby or this ???

If this link has already been posted, I apologise:

http://www.marantz.jp/ce/products/hometheater/projectors/vp11s1/index.html

Thanks Spizz. Will it be a Ruby or this ???

Tom it depends on what the Aussie RRP ends up being. The US price is out of my league but the VP-11S1 RRP is being priced alot cheaper in Europe funnily enough (as it is usually the other way around) so it gives me hope. I am very happy with my S3 so would natually like to stick with Marantz. But the one thing that I love about the Ruby is it is whisper quiet. I couldn't even hear it as opposed to my S3.

The folks at Ultimate AV have one for review and will publish something soon....I wish I had more info on this thing.....

I wonder if it uses the same bulb as the S2 as I have a brand new spare bulb still in the box. Actually.... does it use the same mount if so then I'm ahead of the game....

Same mount, yes.

Same bulb, no. It uses the DC bulb of the S3 and S4.

Thanks Dan....by the way what is the projector's native rate?

I am sure the VP11S1 will be a VERY nice projector, but 20K (if that turns out to be correct) seems unrealistically high for a single chip 1080P projector with a colour wheel. If the VP11S1 used some new revolutionary technology such as a LED light source with enough lumens for a 10-12' wide screen, then maybe.

Hey Scott....I hear you..and yes its high....friggin high....!!!!

But I am not concerned with "what ifs"....I don't care what it does on on a 10/12 footer...I have a 96X54 and thats what I'm concerned about...so it has a color wheel......RBE has never been a problem for me or for anyone else thats watched a movie in my HT....these are all non issues for me....even the one chipper...

The picture is what does it for me and look at the heritage of Marantz PJs....

Anyway I'm in a research mode....I haven't bought anything yet..all PJs have good and bad points.

Keep them comments coming folks....Merci

Runco merging with Marantz?
Did I miss the Kool Aid Stand?
S4 better than Ruby?, I must of missed the Kool Aid stand.

20K for a single chip!!! Forgetaboutit. this is a joke right, are we being punked or is Marantz selling snake oil these days? Oh well just wait and see what the image actually looks like.

I am really looking forward to seeing the VP-11S1. The VP-12 series is one of the best looking 720p projectors and now that 1080 is on the horizon I expect the VP-11 to be one of the best looking 1080 projectors. All the information that has been posted on this thread makes the VP-11 look like a winner, can't wait to actually see one in action.

Oswald,

I have spent many hours viewing the images from an S4 and have recently been able to spend some time with a Ruby (allegedly calibrated). While the Ruby had more detail with 1080 sources I found the S4 to have more accurate colors. With non-native resolution sources I found the S4 processor to be sharper with fewer artifacts.

Doug

I've heard $18K with an image much better than the Ruby. Better video processing (2nd Gen Gennun) and much better lens. The big negative I've heard (besides the digit appearing before the 8) is only 700 ANSI Lumens.

Mark
I agree it would be nice to have more than 700 lumens but I do not see it as a big drawback, at least for me. 700 lumens should be enough for screens in the 100 inch range.

Rosano
Are you sure Ultimate AV received a production VP-11? If so that is good news as that means they are actually in production. When can we see the review?

Doug

If you go to the website on the home page...click on the buyers guide on the left and then look at "short takes"...the PJ is listed with a short blurb and it says a review is coming soon....Thats all I know....not sure what they are looking at if its a pre prod model or a production model....

Wait and see....

I like Marantz audio ( I own a flagship 9600 receiver ) wich I think is a good value at its price point but $18k for a 1 chipper these days seems way out of line even if it may be "better" in some ways than the Ruby. You can buy 2 1/2 Rubys for that price!. I can't imagine even a 3 chip 1080P dlp being 2 1/2 times "better" than a Ruby. Brighter, yes but 2 1/2 times better, no. If that price is correct the Ruby will remain the price/perfomance best buy and the Marantz will be relegated to boutique sales to the uninformed. I think marantz is making a mistake in its pricing.

Sandy

http://www.ippinkan.com/marantz_vp11s1.htm

Any news on the VP-11? Can't wait to demo it against a Ruby.
Doug

The VP11S1 will be released the end of June, very limited amount..
MAP $18,000.00 :)

Aloha Glen

:) :) When we introduced the VP-12S1 projector, critics were quick to scoff. After all, what did Marantz, perceived as an audio company of legendary stature, know about the world of big screen video? To understand the fallacy behind that thinking, all you really need to understand is the definition of the word “fidelity” According to Webster’s, “fi•del•i•ty, n, from Latin fidelitat-, fidelitas, from fidelis faithful: the quality or state of being faithful b : accuracy in details : EXACTNESS”. When Saul Marantz founded his company in 1951, color television hadn’t been invented yet. Yet somehow he knew to put an audio input for television on his first product. The idea of video fidelity is an easy one for Marantz to understand, and the VP-12S1 was designed with that in mind. Those critics were soon silenced. The VP-12 series has been accepted as state of the art in big screen front projection, and has been refined further over the course of several generations. About the only thing that was left to improve, was the limit of 1280 x 720 in displayed resolution, a limit that was one of existing technology—there wasn’t a DMD device from Texas Instruments developed that had that resolution.

That has changed.

We are proud to introduce the VP-11S1, the first and finest 1080p video projector on the planet. With performance high enough for professionals to use during as well as in post production, this projector doesn’t just raise the bar; it asks why we are jumping over the bar in the first place when we can fly. Let’s talk about some of the things that we are doing in this projector that makes it so good.

True HD DLP® chip for full support of HD sources
The VP-11S1 features Texas Instruments' first true 1080p HD chip. True HD chips offer more than double the pixels of 720p chips, over 2 million pixels.

Left: 720p chips measure 1280×720, or 921,600 pixels
Right: True HD chips measure 1920×1080, or 2,073,600 pixels

Even though there are more pixels, the micromirrors of this DLP® chip are now smaller, making the total area only approximately 1.4 times as large as a 720p chip. What's more, the mirrors are more reflective, because the central point of contact for the post is smaller, as is the gap between mirrors.

The chip is now controlled by dual drivers, TI's newly developed DDP3021. Used in parallel, the drivers provide precise control over the more numerous mirrors and enable 12-bit gamma processing. The move to 12-bit gamma processing from conventional 10-bit processing translates into the ability to express gradations four times richer. Combined with the greater pixel count of the chip, this makes truly high-definition images a reality. This allows the VP-11S1 to display an astounding 68+ billion colors on screen!

Native contrast of 6500:1
Another feature that works in concert with the VP-11S1's true HD chip is the electronically actuated iris in the projection lens. The iris can be switched between modes emphasizing either contrast (at F6.0) or brightness (at F3.0). The native contrast is 6500:1 at F6.0, so that even scenes including mixed bright and dark areas evoke a sense exceptional contrast. This performance, combined with fuller gradation, means that smooth gradation is possible over a wider range. In addition, this projector has one of the lowest absolute black levels in the industry, so that when a scene fades to black, it is truly black.

New-generation Gennum VXP™ image processor for full 10-bit processing

The image processor, the core component in the video circuitry, is the next generation version of the processor used in the VP-12S4—the Gennum GF9351. Manufacturing in a 0.13 µm process yields a faster, more energy-efficient component by an order of magnitude. Scaling performance has also been improved, as have the four aspects of VXP™ technology. The result: high-precision image processing to unleash the power of this tremendously more expressive true HD chip.

VXP™ technology
TruMotionHD™
Gennum's TruMotionHD™ de-interlacing algorithm is unique in its ability to perform pixel based motion adaptive de-interlacing with automatic 3:2 and 2:2 pull-down on both HDTV and SDTV formats. Gennum's TruMotionHD™ de-interlacing technology supports fully adaptive 1080i → 1080p de-interlacing to ensure optimal image quality in demanding applications.
FineEdge™
FineEdge™ advanced directional interpolation algorithm eliminates "jaggy" artefacts found in traditional de-interlacing solutions. FineEdge™ processing maintains overall image sharpness and detail. FineEdge™ processing is applied to both SDTV and HDTV sources for optimal image quality.
FidelityEngine™
Detail emphasis and noise reduction are both provided by this technology. Unlike typical noise reduction, which lowers the apparent image resolution at higher levels, this feature isolates noise to eliminate it effectively. For softer, lower-resolution images, FidelityEngine adds emphasis to details, making the images noticeably sharper.

RealityExpansion™
The GF9351 features fully 10-bit signal transmission. To produce high-precision 10-bit data, even higher-precision signal processing occurs internally. This approach to realistic imagery is called RealityExpansion™. 10-bit images offer superior gradation compared to typical 8-bit images, and the number of colors is more than an order of magnitude higher--more than a billion, instead of 16.77 million. RealityExpansion also upsamples video signals in which Y/Cb/Cr = 4:4:2, converting them to 4:4:4. In this way, the GF9351 performs ideal signal processing for images on the level of a broadcast master.

Outstanding high-performance lens
The VP-11S1 incorporates custom Konica Minolta optics with high-performance AD (anomalous dispersion) and aspherical lenses. All lenses are finished by multi-coating treatment to prevent excessive glare. The basic lens structure found in the VP-12S4 has been redesigned for even better peripheral focus and lower chromatic aberration. To guarantee exceptional reliability and long-term protection against dust, the optics are assembled in a clean room and completely sealed.

Up to 165% lens shift, 1.45× zoom
The projector's high performance is matched by its versatility. The VP-11S1 has the capability of mounting up to ~33% of the height of the screen above the viewable portion of the image. And the new extended range zoom lens allows for two lens options (standard and long—available later in the year) to cover as many possibilities as we could in the past with three.
Vertical Stretch Mode for use with Anamorphic Lensing
Many feature films are filmed utilizing a 2.35:1 aspect ratio. When viewed on a 16:9 screen, these movies will have reduced vertical height and black bars on the top and bottom. The VP-11S1 will offer the ability to stretch the image to fit the full resolution of the chip and when used with a CinemaScope aspect ratio screen and an optional anamorphic lens, will offer the movie lover an even greater cinematic experience.

Seven-segment color wheel with a new ND filter, spinning at 6×
A quiet fluid dynamic bearing motor (from computer hard drive technology) spins the large, 98 mm color wheel at 6x (10,800 rpm), reducing color separation. Previously we have used 5x. To counteract video noise, a seven-segment filter is incorporated, made up of two segments each of R(red), G(green), and B(blue), as well as a G(green) segment that includes the ND filter. This special green segment with the ND filter (G+ND) produces green in a dark range, capitalizing on the fact that people are generally much more sensitive to green than red or blue. Including this G+ND segment especially for the dark green spectrum and fine-tuning the processing enables more accurate reproduction of green hues while significantly reducing components perceived as video noise. R, G, and B filter characteristics have been thoroughly optimized, and the effect of the ORCA filter in the VP-12S4 has been successfully not only achieved but enhanced. Compared to the VP-12S4, the color gamut is now much wider, providing a broader palette suitable for HDTV images.

Dual HDMI, dual component input
Two HDMI input ports are available for users to take advantage of a digital AV interface that is surging in popularity. This enables switching between input from a DVD player, recorder, or digital tuner without changing the connection. But the projector's repertoire of source devices does not stop here. Dual analog interfaces are also provided, in the form of Y/Cb/Cr component input, to support a wide range of connections.

200W SHP lamp
Projection is powered by a 200-watt super high-pressure (SHP) mercury lamp. To compensate for the generally weaker red output in the spectral distribution of SHP mercury lamps, the VP-11S1 is designed so that the lamp drive current is momentarily raised when light passes through red segments of the color wheel, which boosts luminance by approximately 25%. The lamp also offers outstanding reliability from double-shielded joints on the tungsten electrodes and molybdenum foil. This lamp is also a DC type to reduce flickering, first used in the VP-12S3 and still an industry exclusive.

Designed for high reliability
The chassis is constructed of cast aluminum, as with VP-12 series projectors. A shielding material is applied to prevent electromagnetic leakage, and nickel plating on the outer chassis reduces radiated noise while serving as a strong defense against external noise. All measures have been taken to prevent light leakage, which would affect the viewing experience. The structure also accounts for heat dissipation, which otherwise makes concealed installations more difficult. Air flows through the projector by entering and exiting from the front instead of the front and back. Because the projector is designed to avoid heat dissipation in the back, which tends to be more enclosed, owners are assured of stable long-term use.

Plentiful gamma presets and user memory profiles
Each user memory profile offers Theater, Standard, and Dynamic modes with five gamma presets for a total of eight configurations, in which desired gamma curves can be set in combination with Picture Adjust and Fine Menu options. In user memory profiles, Theater, Standard, and Dynamic modes provide three memory profiles each. Combined with nine user modes, a generous 18 memory profiles are available in all. This way, preferred image characteristics customized for various sources can be instantly recalled. There will be software available on the Marantz website to help create custom gamma curves.

RS-232C terminal facilitates custom installation
With custom installation in mind, an RS-232C terminal is provided that supports controllers from Crestron and other manufacturers, such as touchpanel controllers. A trigger interface is also provided, as required for control of electronic screens or curtains.

New remote control with full backlighting of all buttons
The newly developed remote control can illuminate all buttons. This is an easy and convenient controller for home theater environments in dark settings. Dedicated buttons for main functions eliminate the need to navigate menus, affording instant access to needed controls.

New standby power supply; parts designed for environmental compliance
Reengineered electrical circuits enable the projector to use less than 1.0 W in standby mode. The VP-11S1 is remarkably energy-efficient for a commercial projector. All components are designed to be eco-friendly and easier to recycle or dispose of, in compliance with new European environmental regulations.

RECAP
The VP-11S1 is the first “professional” grade video projector that has been made available to consumers. Designed from the ground up with film reproduction as the primary use and fine tuned over the past four years, it has the unique ability to “disappear” as a product, leaving just the image to be enjoyed.

The VP series from Marantz was developed not with the usual attributes of high brightness and small size (as are most video projectors from less than stellar lineage), but instead the lowest absolute black level (so fades to black won’t be a constant reminder that you are watching a projected image), highest contrast ratio (so all of the tremendous dynamic range of film can be displayed), extremely accurate color palette (so all of the cinematographer’s intent is portrayed accurately), and sharpest optics (again, so as to allow as little distractions as possible) have been our goal, adhering to the core values set by Saul Marantz himself when he started the company in 1951.

With a resolution of 1920 x 1080 the VP-11S1 displays the same pixel count on screen as the majority of D-Cinema projectors, and the broadcast quality VXP® video processing from Gennum provides an artifact free picture that can display over one billion colors. The 14 element aspherical apochromatic all-glass optics are from Konica-Minolta, and there are two lens options to allow almost unlimited flexibility with regards to mounting distance and screen size. Finally, the fan is whisper quiet, so you’ll never even know it’s there.

Projectors in the past have alluded to bringing the Hollywood screening room to your home. The VP-11S1 not only makes it possible, but it makes it possible for those who really know what a Hollywood screening room looks like. We fully expect this projector to be used in production for the viewing of dailies as well as in post and anywhere a personal sized venue is desired.

Great write up. Still can't see how that can justify the $18k price.

Finally, the fan is whisper quiet, so you’ll never even know it’s there.

As whisper quiet as the Sony Ruby? Quieter than my S3? As after I have had it running in high lamp mode for a while as the picture was dimming and now just want something quieter.

The article states, "And the new extended range zoom lens allows for two lens options (standard and long—available later in the year) to cover as many possibilities as we could in the past with three."


Does this mean the new, standard 1.45× zoom lens of the VP-11S1, will allow for larger screen sizes than the VP-12S4 at the same distance from the screen?

Yes

What are the input/output specifications of the VP11S1?

In addition to a 1080i60 - 1080P60 signal, does the 2 digital HDMI inputs allow, 1080P24psf and/or 1080P/48 and/or 1080P/72? Is there a choice in the projected output?

Also, what is the gamut of modulation of the 2 analog component input frame rates?

Paul

:) Yes it is confirmed the VP11S1 will accept 1080 at 24/30/60 in HDMI :)

What is the native rate of the unit?

Hello Fellow Members

I might be off a little on target here with this comment.

I am sure the new Marantz will be a very fine projector. I have notice that this projector and its previous model is not that very bright. The price alone of these projectors would naturally have a target market of well above average income. I would naturally expect those people to have quite a large setup for HT and large screen. Why is this projector and some others in this league not that too bright?

I haven't seen any details on the new marantz light output.

:(
Ben

The price is very high for single chip DLP...

Unfortunately a marketing Guru at marantz has decided that since their projector "may" be better in some areas than the Ruby and the H81, they can charge twice as much for it. Only time will tell if they are right. I would not want to bet my career on that assumption though. My opinion is that the right competitive msrp for this projector is $12K with a street of under $9k. If their cost structure can't support that then they missed the boat on the sweet spot for price /perfomance.

Marantz prices are competitive in the audio area so I dont understand why they are not in the vidio area. maybe a different set of marketing folks for video vs audio?

Sandy

Marantz prices are competitive in the audio area so I dont understand why they are not in the vidio area. maybe a different set of marketing folks for video vs audio?

Sandy

It depends on your definition of "competitive". The same "features" in our $1100 AV receiver can be had in a Sony for $300. The difference is that there are at least four other brands in the "premium" category for AV receivers. So typically, people wouldn't compare our receivers to Sony's, they'd use Denon, or Elite or Integra, etc...

Our 10k 720p projector, the VP-12S4, in controlled tests, makes a sharper more accurate image than the Ruby in side by side tests. I've done the shootouts, and will do one anywhere, anytime. Our die-cast magnesium-aluminum alloy chassis alone is as expensive as anything in the Ruby. Our optics (and try pricing a lens for a still camera that boasts the kind of specs of ours) are the best in the industry.

I'm not down on the Ruby. It has a beautiful form factor and runs quieter than anything I have ever heard. It also set the bar for the pixel count/price ratio. But pixel count is only a small part of overall PQ. Sorry guys, but it's true.

Our projector is a premium product. It uses hand selected DMDs, that cost us considerably more than what the majority of the competition uses. Everything in the design was chosen with projected image performance in mind. We make no apologies for the price, because it's cheap. There will be no other single chip DLP that will outperform it at any price. And when three chip 1080p DLP arrives, unless the manufacturer pays similar attention to the things that we KNOW affects the subtleties of the image (the ones that most ignore- and the first ones that draw you out of the performance, reminding you that you are still watching a light bulb-- a bad thing), then I am confident that we will beat them too.

So Dan when will this thing come out....is it still targetted for end of June. And do you think my FireHawk will be a good match for it.

Well, the first handful just cleared customs last week, so technically... it is shipping.

Cool....

So will my Firehawk be a good match and what is the native rate of this PJ.

If you like or need what the Firehawk brings to the table, then yes. The black level doesn't need any help of its own, so if your room is DARK and doesn't have any ambient light issues (reflected or direct), then a white screen is my choice. But if you have light walls and/or ceilings or some light in the room, then the FH is a great screen.

The native rate is 1920 x 1080.

Dan I beg to differ with you.
I own a Marantz 9600 and a Ruby. I don't think I could find comparable audio perfomance for what I paid for the 9600 ( much less than msrp, in the range of mid priced receivers). Conversely there is no way in this earth that you could convince me that the vp11s1 will be 2 or more times better than the Ruby ( for wich I also paid much less than msrp). It is still a 1 chip dlp with inherent rainbows, dither, headaches, motion dither , low ire noise etc, etc. wich are inherent with 1 chip dlp. Sure your lens and processing are probably better than the Rubys but it is still a 1 chip dlp with inherent faults you cant fix. It is worth a small premium to the Ruby not 2.5 times. Now if you had a 3 chip 1080p dlp for 18K then you could brag. But not with an $18K 1 chip. My opinion is that few informed customers will believe it is worth so much more money than a Ruby or a H81. I also own Nikon slr cameras and the difference in good lenses vs adequate lenses is not $8,000 ( difference in msrp between Ruby and vp11s1)

I like Marantz and I think they produce excelent products . I just think you priced the vp11s1 too high and I'll bet that the price will be reduced before too long!

Are you in charge of audio marketing for Marantz as well as video? It seems like two different companies? Sandy

Wow. No doubt the new Marantz is a great PJ. I have been researching projectors for about 6 months. Initially I thought $3000 or so would get the quality hardware and picture that one wants. Then I bumped up to $6000 or so in considering BenQ or Samsung. Then came Ruby at $10K. Hard to swallow the $10K. But now they can be had considerably less (Won't break the rules and mention $$ but you all know). For me $10K was an absolute limit and I think there are many consumers in my boat. Now that the quality brought to market by Sony is even much less, anything over that $10K MSRP is not going to get a good look from those like me. $18K forget about it.

As I said, I'm sure the new Marantz will be great, but I don't have to spend anywhere near that amount to get great quality. Then there's the new batch of 1080P (Optoma, etc) coming out.... competition is going to be tough out there.

The S1, S2, S3, and S4 were all priced at the high end for their respective product categories. They all sold well. I'm sure the 11S1 will do quite nicely despite its high price tag. All the posts I'm seeing here are exactly what I've seen every time Marantz has announced its next projector.

That said, I doubt I'll be picking up an 11S1 unless it's on clearance at some no-name web shop in 2008 ;)

Dan, I've always been quite sensitive to the typical DLP artifacts. I see rainbows, pick up on low-level dithering quite readily, and panning problems (motion dithering) stick out like a sore thumb to me. I'm wondering how exactly you managed to minimize or eliminate these issues in the 11S1. These drawbacks seem inherent to the technology, and while I've seen several projectors that did a good job of minimizing these artifacts, I've never seen one that eliminated them.

technically... it is shipping.

Congrats Dan :)

Dan, I've always been quite sensitive to the typical DLP artifacts. I see rainbows, pick up on low-level dithering quite readily, and panning problems (motion dithering) stick out like a sore thumb to me. I'm wondering how exactly you managed to minimize or eliminate these issues in the 11S1. These drawbacks seem inherent to the technology, and while I've seen several projectors that did a good job of minimizing these artifacts, I've never seen one that eliminated them.

Most people have told me that the VP-12S4 compared to other 5x colorwheel products, exhibits much less artifacting. There is a reason. Extremely precise colorwheel/dmd/lamp pulse timing. This takes an extremely stable and rigid chassis and a highly controlled power supply. We also throw a little more light away, due to the chip shutting down well before the transition from one color to another.

With the VP-11S1 colorwheel spinning 20% faster, this should be minimized even more. Eliminated? To many yes, but to a small percentage, most likely never. But that's why there are other technologies.

:)

Congrats Dan :)


Thanks Alan,

First to market?

Dan when will the manual be online to download? And secondly what db is the noise of this unit rated at? Less than the S3 in both low and high lamp modes?

Thanks.
Spero

... the only thing that he has seen that rivals the picture quality of the Ruby is the C3X...

I can confirm that, I made this comparison myself for two days under perfect viewing conditions. No competition at all there, I'd choose the C3X any time over the Ruby and will most likely do the same for the new Marantz.

I will be very curious to see the performance of the new 1080p DLPs.

Congratulations Marantz!

I can confirm that, I made this comparison myself for two days under perfect viewing conditions. No competition at all there, I'd choose the C3X any time over the Ruby and will most likely do the same for the new Marantz.

No competition concerning what? The Ruby shows more detail with good 1080i/p and has more depth in critical dark scenes. The C3X has its strengths and so does the Ruby. Pick your poison.

If the S4 is anything to go by, I think the VP11S1 will be a storming projector.
Yes it may not be cheap given its single chip spec but Marantz projectors have always commanded what many feel to be a premium in terms of price. Though it goes without saying you always get what you pay for and IMHO the price Marantz are asking will probably be relevant to the overall quality and performance of their product. Lets face it, they would soon be out of business if it wasn't!

I also think a lot of folks underestimate the importance of high quality optics. You can cram as many chips and pixels into a chassis as you like, a projectors optics decide on the final picture quality. The S4 was already pin sharp and if, as Marantz has stated the optics on the VP11S1 has improved, overall image quality will only be better.

In my experience the S4 is one of the least problematic single chippers in terms of dither and rainbow, which as we all know are main Achilles heal with single chip DLP.

In fact the above problems are so minimal on the S4 that most owners (certainly the ones I've come across) consider the above a non issue.

While the Ruby does not suffer from the above problems, it is also far from perfect. Speaking from experience as a Ruby owner and an ISF calibrator I do feel corners have been cut. Let's face it, they had to be given the price! And in my view one of these corners happens to be the Rubys optics.

There is no argument that the Sony Ruby is a great projector for the money. It certainly ticks all the right spec boxes. Unfortunately (and I've worked on both machines), it doesn't hold a candle to the S4 in terms of overall sharpness. And yes whilst I'd agree that SXRD is inherently softer than DLP, I think in this case the overiding factor is more to do with big differences in optics quality than anything else.


Congrats to Dan and Marantz for what promises to be a superb projector!

I have to say, I saw the VP-11S1 last Thrursday night at a rep line-show; it was an impressive picture. The Gennum scaling inside was among the best I've seen in any projector ever- handily beating even some external scalers available today. I didn't notice dither with the source material used (Dan's Sencore HD drive- the Victoria's Secret show). Rainbows popped-up from time to time, but weren't terribly noticeable. Actually seeing the rainbows answered a question I had concerning the projector: it uses an RGB 7-segment wheel, not the "brilliant color" wheel that I saw at CEDIA in the TI booth- to me, it's much less visible with RGB as opposed to the "brilliant color".

In the TI booth, my eyes immediately picked-up the secondary colors in the rainbow, but not the primaries- I would figure that Red and Green would pop-out, but instead it was the yellow and magenta segments that caught my eyes.

I have to commend Marantz, several times I had to remind myself that I was watching a single-chip DLP instead of a Qualia (although the reds didn't have that depth that I'm used-to with the Qualia). I didn't ask any questions concerning the projector because the rep-fim hosting the show was obviously just regurgitating info that they'd received from Marantz, and didn't seem like they were able to answer any in-depth technical questions. I would have liked to have known about accuracy to the primaries, any ability to adjust primaries and/or secondaries, selectable color gamuts (NTSC/ATSC), abilities to adjust scaling parameters, etc. I just didn't have the confidence in their video expertise to delve into those topics- especially after a half-hour long argument regarding Screen Research vs. Stewart for screens (video, NOT audio)...where the rep was flat-out wrong (there is no such thing as a screen-for-all-situations/environments).

On the topic of optics: people compare the Ruby to the S4 and soon the S1, but that isn't a fair contest. The Ruby uses Sony lenses, whereas the S4 and S1 use lenses made by Minolta, we're talking Chevy vs Audi here- both make quality products, but one is surely in a different league. If you want to make a fair comparison; take the S1 vs the Qualia- there you have Minolta vs Zeiss: now we're looking at an Audi/BMW -level shootout.

I realize that the price/availability of these products differs, as well as the fact that the Qulia is almost (or is) 2 years-old now, but the optics and resolutions compare favorably between these- as does the picture quality. (based on my limited experience with the S1- although if Dan would like to bring an S1 to a Qualia venue, I'm sure I have a client that would be willing to be the guinnea-pig for that shootout).

In all but the 1-chip vs 3-chip issues, I have to say that the S1 is worthy of the price-point that it occupies- and it will be interesting to see how companies like Sim2, Runco, Samsung, and Sharp respond.

Dan

Does it come with a zero defective pixel guarantee? I hope so since we are talking about hand picked chips.

Interesting post Dan. Thanks for the update...keep those observations coming.

Dan good post. Could you tell how loud it was? i.e anywhere near Ruby Silent?

Does it come with a zero defective pixel guarantee? I hope so since we are talking about hand picked chips.

Charles, Marantz doesn't have a zero defect pixel guarantee.
But from my experience, this is just to cover themselves legally.
To hear of anybody having any type of pixel defect is a rarity in its self, and i have never heard of anybody being refused a replacement PJ/Panel when they do.

I had a horizontal line problem with my first S3, and although the tech couldn't see it himself Marantz shipped me a new unit.
I believe somebody else had this problem on a S1/S2, but it was the dealer and not Marantz who were being funny about a replacement/repair. (it was out of warranty etc)

Back to the subject of the S1 and pricing...

I'm a current S3 owner, and a very happy one at that!
So when the S4 came out, it should have been the natural upgrade path.
However, although better, i thought it wasn't a big enough improvement to justify upgrading.
Like most, i thought it best to skip a model change and see what the "S5" offered.
I guessed that single chip 720p had been done to death, so the S5 would be single chip 1080p.

Each model change had previously been met with a slight price rise as to not lose it's consumer base.
I imagine that a lot of people really had to stretch to afford the previous "S" range, but could at least justify it with the knowledge that they were getting quality and the best.
Loyal "S" customers expect a new model to be within their financial limits, but the new "S5" sorry the new VP11S1 has broken any natural upgrade path.
Once it was announced the price would be above $15000($18000+), i bet many started looking at other manufacturers to save some cash. Or have started thinking of going the other way and have the attitude of "hell i may as well add a few extra grand" and wait for 3 chip 1080 DLP.

I don't doubt for a minute that the Vp11S1 will nothing less than brilliant for a 1 chip 1080p DLP.
But that's the sticking point, it is still 1 chip DLP.
There is nothing Marantz or anybody else can do about the physical limitations of using a colour wheel.(come on lasers!)
I do suffer rainbows, and the Maranzt S3 was the first DLP where they were reduced so much that i could live with them.
At the time, there wasn't any practical alternative apart from CRT.(which i had)
Although i didn't like the limitations of single chippers, i felt at the time that they were a good compromise because the rest of the picture was so good.

But things have changed, with the C3X and the VW100HT now being available.
Both these alternatives have their drawbacks, but the VW100HT at least costs a substantial amount less.
I have seen the best and worse that the VW100HT offers, and i can assure you that when it is good, it is very very good.

Most people have to justify their purchases, but a price increase from $14500RRP to $18000RRP may just stretch too many people too far.
I bet a fare amount of "S" series owners have now been hanging around the "H81" thread!

Having a projector used to get you membership into a a fairly exclusive club.
Nowadays having a projector is no more exclusive than owning a bag of golf clubs.
Every other form of display device has fallen in price, and risen in quality.
It seems for Marantz with price at least, this rule doesn't apply!

I love Marantz and don't want to be negative, but the VP1S1 needs to be $15000 or less. (IMHO)
Marantz may argue that this is a new model range, hence the price increase.
But i cannot see any present 1 chip 720p owner wanting to buy another 1 chip 720p DLP.
I know they have done a few tweaks, but this new model is essentially a chip change.

I will personally wait for 3 chip 1080p DLP/SXRD that can light a large screen.
I am prepared to pay for quality when it is a real advancement in technology or technique.
But at least for now, i feel any advancement in 1 chip design is still polishing a turd! :)

No, I was unable to tell how loud/quiet the S1 was due to the insanely loud fan on the Sencore drive. I actually told the reps that they should use longer HDMI and coax digital cables with it, and put the thing in the hall- that way you could actually hear what was going on.

Dan

The Ruby uses Sony lenses, whereas the S4 and S1 use lenses made by Minolta, we're talking Chevy vs Audi here- both make quality products, but one is surely in a different league. If you want to make a fair comparison; take the S1 vs the Qualia- there you have Minolta vs Zeiss: now we're looking at an Audi/BMW -level shootout.

.

Dan

Coming from the SLR camera world, I think the lens comparison is rather generous. I would favor Minolta optics over Sony but not by as much as your comparison. I would take Canon, Nikon, or Zeiss any day over Minolta.

I don't think there is any comparison between Minolta & Zeiss- the two are in different leagues altogether. This to me is the Chevy-Audi.

I don't think there is any comparison between Minolta & Zeiss- the two are in different leagues altogether. This to me is the Chevy-Audi.

In the SLR world, I would have to agree.. However, Sony uses Zeiss for MANY of their cameras, including 200.00 Point and shoot cameras. Just because something has a name on it, dont be too quick to assume. Everything has to be made to a price point, and who knows what pricepoint any of the companies are allowing for the lenses.

Johnny

I don't think there is any comparison between Minolta & Zeiss- the two are in different leagues altogether. This to me is the Chevy-Audi.
Mark,
Agree with your comments providing they are indeed Carl Zeiss lenses. As I understand it from a pro sports photographer friend of mine, Zeiss have been licensing out their brand name to some real dross for some time now.

We seen the S3 and S4 in action, and these are rated one of the top single chip 720 DLP projector, has anyone seen the VP11S1, it should be out there in limited
supplies :)

Glen :)

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the great posts, they are certainly wetting the appetite of many people. While I understand that a WSR review is coming mid AUgust and I appreciate WSR's ability to provide in detailed measurements as such, I am anxious to hear the impressions of those who have had a chance to view this projector, with or without any sophisticated test gear. I know when I purchase my next projector it is going to be based mainly upon what my eyes tell me. Anyone seen this unit yet? - Doug

Give me another week or two ;)

Cheers,

Hi John,
I think you will like the VP-11S1. I found both the processing and light engine to be noticeably improved from the VP-12S4 which itself was a great projector.

I hope to see you and your wife again next year at CES.

Best regards,
Brian

Brian:

My wife is going to roam around LV with one of her girlfriends... The show floor wasn't her cup of tea.

Oh well, I'm still just a giant kid in a candy store there!

John,
Hopefully I will see you both again for dinner. Getting back on point for the thread, have you had an opportunity to view the VP-11S1? I found, and continue to find it to be quite impressive the more I watch it.

Has anyone else had any opportunity to spend time viewing the projector?

Brian

Brian.....stop teasing us and tell us more about your thoughts on this PJ....where are you seeing it....what screen....sources....etc....

Thanks

Brian:

Nope. I went out on a limb with this one. Based on previous experience with Marantz projectors I don't think it's a stretch to think that this will be one very high performing PJ.

Cheers,

Rosano,

Sorry that this note is so short, but I am at work at the moment. to briefly answer your questions, I have the VP-11S1 in my home theater, my sources include the Marantz DV-9600 and Toshiba HD-DVD, my screen is a 92" Stewart Greyhawk. John is right, the level of performance is very high, the picture is phenomenal. More to come soon.
Brian

Brian- How loud is it in the normal setting? As whisper quiet as the Ruby? The same as its predessor the S4? Keep the info coming :)

The first review of the new Marantz VP-11S1 is up. Was hoping it would be as quiet as the Ruby but so be it. Looks pretty good, as does the constant height addon for it coming out down the track.

http://www.avrev.com/equip/marantz_vp11s1_projector/

Kind of disappointed that he didn't include any measurements. The S4 is incredibly linear right out of the box and I would love to see the same with the S1. The custom gamma curve software sounds great!! Can't wait to see Greg's review!!

Kris:

AV Rev doesn't do any measurements on PJs.

Cheers,

First I'd heard of the 1080 chip having higher reflectivity and greater fill factor.

Makes the HD81 even sweeter :)

$19,999 MSRP.! Ouch! It better be much better than the RUBY and JVC 10K at that price. I have a hard time believing the greater fill factor part. Since pixels are much smaller ( than 720 chips) that means gap spacing must have been reduced by a factor of two or more for the fill factor to be better. I'll believe that the new chip has a smaller gap than the 720 chips but a not a larger fill factor.

Brian Kahn the reviewer quotes "Without question, it hangs with, if not on some levels out-performs, the likes of the Sony “Ruby” and the JVC HD10k."

Not surprised at all since the other 2 are based on the LCOS & SXRD panels therefore not having the depth of a 720P DLP let alone a 1080P.

Brian Kahn the reviewer quotes "Without question, it hangs with, if not on some levels out-performs, the likes of the Sony “Ruby” and the JVC HD10k."



At that price I would expect it to more than just hang with the Ruby and only outperform on "some level"...

Brian Kahn the reviewer quotes "Without question, it hangs with, if not on some levels out-performs, the likes of the Sony “Ruby” and the JVC HD10k."

Not surprised at all since the other 2 are based on the LCOS & SXRD panels therefore not having the depth of a 720P DLP let alone a 1080P.

Depth? Could you give a definition on how you are using the word and how does a 720x1280 single chip have more "depth" than 1080x1920 3 chips?

Depth? Could you give a definition on how you are using the word and how does a 720x1280 single chip have more "depth" than 1080x1920 3 chips?

You beat me to it...

Depth? Could you give a definition on how you are using the word and how does a 720x1280 single chip have more "depth" than 1080x1920 3 chips?

Very simple..It's in the eyes of the beholder & what they see not just the numbers. We've tried this before and 8 out of 10 people picked the 12S4 over the Ruby.

Go get yourself a Marantz 12S4 & a Ruby with abot 40 different people in the room. Cover the units so they don't see what they are..throw in a superbit of your choice & let them decide which picture is superior. It was actually 34 out of the 40 people in our tests that chose the 12S4 over the 1080P Ruby.

Now imagine this new 1080P Marantz...need I say more?

SXRD is just not as pleasing to the eye as is DLP...proven fact.

...throw in a superbit of your choice & let them decide which picture is superior.Why use inferior sources? Is that to try to skew the results?
SXRD is just not as pleasing to the eye as is DLP...proven fact.This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've read here.

How far back did you have people for your tests? Were the viewing ratios like average seats in movie theaters or like what is more common for TV viewing?

This 11S1 should look great, but that doesn't make those comments right.

--Darin

Why use inferior sources? Is that to try to skew the results?

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've read here.

How far back did you have people for your tests?

Were the viewing ratios like average seats in movie theaters or like what is more common for TV viewing?

--Darin

Why use inferior sources? Is that to try to skew the results?

Nope..at the time there were no Blu-ray or HD DVD players out yet but most importantly we also wanted the average viewer that does not have HD sources available to them to be able & see the difference off a DVD.

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've read here.
Not at all, I and many oters would agree that it is one of the better statements.

How far back did you have people for your tests?
About 17 feet projecting onto a 120" diagonal Da-Lite high gain screen.

Were the viewing ratios like average seats in movie theaters or like what is more common for TV viewing?
Like average seats in theaters.

Very simple..It's in the eyes of the beholder & what they see not just the numbers. We've tried this before and 8 out of 10 people picked the 12S4 over the Ruby.

And that is your definition of "depth"? Or is that more an excuse because you can't give us a definition of your earlier statement?




SXRD is just not as pleasing to the eye as is DLP...proven fact.

I'm with Darin on this. This is even more ridiculous than some statements from the die-hard Blu-Ray fanboys in the BD section. So if I put 50 people in a room and they all pick the Ruby over a S4, then your previous experiement has been proven wrong?

I wonder how many of your 40 people could actually see the artifacts from 1-chip DLPs that are present due to the physical limitations of the 1-chip technology.

And last but not least, why on earth would anyone use a DVD for such a comparison? DVD looks like crap when it comes to picture quality, I hardly watch it anymore because I can't stand watching it. I looks so bad, whenever I watch scenes from DVD, I wonder how good it would look in HD. I can't even sit through a two hour movie on DVD anymore, simply because it looks so bad. HD is a whole different story, very pleasing and I can easily watch two or three movies without a break.

Not the best reviewer in town, but we have to settle for this until a real PJ expert reads his review. HUrry up Greg!


A for effort!

"SXRD is just not as pleasing to the eye as is DLP...proven fact."

I agree that it's silly to mention facts in purely subjective matters, but I suspect by "depth" he meant the illusion of 3-D that DLP's can have due to their greater ANSI (simulataneous) CR.

Nope..at the time there were no Blu-ray or HD DVD players out yet but most importantly we also wanted the average viewer that does not have HD sources available to them to be able & see the difference off a DVD.So, in other words you used a 480 source with a 720 projector vs a 1080 projector and stated the results as a fact without regard to the source. Some of us have been watching way more HD than DVD for years, and that was before HD DVD and BluRay.
Not at all, I and many oters would agree that it is one of the better statements.Maybe those who don't comprehend what you did with the source and the viewing ratio.
About 17 feet projecting onto a 120" diagonal Da-Lite high gain screen.

Like average seats in theaters.You just contradicted yourself. Greater than 1.9x the screen width is not average for seats in theaters, unless your talking about pretty bad theaters. The THX minimum of 26 degrees for the worst case in the house (recommended is 36 degrees) puts the middle seat at around 1.2x the screen width for scope material. If theaters were built to THX recommendations the middle seats would be closer to .8x the screen width for scope material (less for 1.85:1 material in a constant height setup).
I agree that it's silly to mention facts in purely subjective matters, but I suspect by "depth" he meant the illusion of 3-D that DLP's can have due to their greater ANSI (simulataneous) CR.Just wanted to point out again that ANSI CR is just one example of simultaneous CR and the higher on/off CR projector will most likely have the higher simultaneous CR in many scenes. This is one reason the higher ANSI CR projector can have more depth in brighter mixed scenes and less in darker mixed scenes. People can pick their scenes to push people toward one projector or the other, just like they can pick 480 sources and have them sit far enough back to push them toward the lower resolution projector.

--Darin

and have them sit far enough back to push them toward the lower resolution projector.

--Darin

Maybe we are moving in the wrong direction after all.
Why not go back to 12x9P projectors. No convergence issues. no dead pixel policy a must, better brightness/color uniformity. Would only require a simple scaling engine with a jagged edge removal filter. That letter A would look like a escalator :)

Very simple..It's in the eyes of the beholder & what they see not just the numbers. We've tried this before and 8 out of 10 people picked the 12S4 over the Ruby.

Go get yourself a Marantz 12S4 & a Ruby with abot 40 different people in the room. Cover the units so they don't see what they are..throw in a superbit of your choice & let them decide which picture is superior. It was actually 34 out of the 40 people in our tests that chose the 12S4 over the 1080P Ruby.

Now imagine this new 1080P Marantz...need I say more?

SXRD is just not as pleasing to the eye as is DLP...proven fact.
Where and how does the HD10K fit intro your "proven fact"? :confused:

Where and how does the HD10K fit intro your "proven fact"? :confused:


The HD10K is Liquid Crystal on Silicone (LCoS) technology which has a few variances that are in the market place; JVC calls its version D-ILA, while Sony has named its version SXRD (Silicon X-tal Reflective Display, and X-tal stands for Crystal). Nonetheless, all versions work in pretty much the same manner.

The HD10K is Liquid Crystal on Silicone (LCoS) technology which has a few variances that are in the market place; JVC calls its version D-ILA, while Sony has named its version SXRD (Silicon X-tal Reflective Display, and X-tal stands for Crystal). Nonetheless, all versions work in pretty much the same manner.


I know what a HD10K is (I have one and it is my 2ed LCoS (DILA G11U)) but you are panting your so called facts with a very broad brush. I have seen a Ruby (not an A B or under the most ideal conditions) and the picture doesn't have the same look to me as the HD10K.

I sure the Marantz VP-11S1 is going to be a great projector and would love to see one with my HD10K. However you inflame passions by wrongly stating subjective option(s) as a "proven fact".

According to a pdf found at DP´s home page the 1080p dmd has a fill factor of 87 percent.

According to a pdf found at DP´s home page the 1080p dmd has a fill factor of 87 percent.
D-ILA is 93% (http://pro.jvc.com/pro/attributes/PRESENT/desc/structure.html)

I hope that you all get a chance to see this projector in person soon, it is quite remarkable. Oswald, sorry that that you didn't care much for the review, we try to do our best. If you have any specific questions feel free to let me know and I will try to answer them.
Brian

I hope that you all get a chance to see this projector in person soon, it is quite remarkable. Oswald, sorry that that you didn't care much for the review, we try to do our best. If you have any specific questions feel free to let me know and I will try to answer them.
Brian

Are you sensitive to rainbows and did you see any?

Brad,
I am not normally sensitive to rainbows but have seen them on some projectors in the past. I did not see any rainbows at all with the VP-11S1.
Brian

Lets not turn this into a my Ruby is better then DLP thread.

$20K for a Marantz single chip 1080 DLP (streetprice will be less) sounds high, but I actually expected this to land at the $25-30K mark, when looking at Marantz previous pricestrategy and buildquality. It won't matter for me since everything above $10K for a new projector will be unreasonable, given the money I'm willing to pour into upgrading my HT next year. :)

Has anyone heard any new info regarding lowerpriced singlechip 1080 DLP's at this point besides the H81? Anything from InFocus, Sharp or BenQ?

I hope that you all get a chance to see this projector in person soon, it is quite remarkable. Oswald, sorry that that you didn't care much for the review, we try to do our best. If you have any specific questions feel free to let me know and I will try to answer them.
Brian
We can be a tough crowd here Brian ;). At the end of your review you make a statement that I've often read at the end of reviews and that I always find a bit humours and a bit ingenuine. To quote:
Personally, I am going to put my money where my mouth is and buy the review unit.
Could you please tell us how much of your money you put where you mouth is :)? Because I have a feeling you might have gotten special pricing. Also, how does that work. Do you ask Marantz what your price would be before or after you gave them a copy of your review :D?

Lest you think I am a jealous consumer, I am in the business and can purchase anything I want at cost, which is why I find the "I'm putting my money where my mouth is" line from reviewers to be ingenuine. Because the truth of the matter is that those of us who can buy things at cost and then resell them before they lose too much value aren't "putting our money where our mouths are" in the way that the normal consumer is. Unless of course you paid full price ;).

Of course I gave Brian a good deal, as I would any reviewer. But that doesn't make the statement ingenuine (is that a word?). Here's why.

A reviewer can buy anything at good deals. Goes with the territory. So you have to remove relativity from the mix, because even though it might be better than the average customer, the playing field is still level. I bought my Dunlavy SC1AVs because a reviewer that I respected bought his review sample. He still has them by the way. Just because someone gets a good deal doesn't mean that they would be more or less inclined to replace the product. No one like to go through that hassle. No one would buy something that they truly don't want to own just because it's a good deal.

Why use inferior sources? Is that to try to skew the results?

Nope..at the time there were no Blu-ray or HD DVD players out yet but most importantly we also wanted the average viewer that does not have HD sources available to them to be able & see the difference off a DVD.

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've read here.
Not at all, I and many oters would agree that it is one of the better statements.

How far back did you have people for your tests?
About 17 feet projecting onto a 120" diagonal Da-Lite high gain screen.

Were the viewing ratios like average seats in movie theaters or like what is more common for TV viewing?
Like average seats in theaters.

At a viewing distance of ~2.0 x screen width??

Uh, OK... yeah, you've stated absolute fact that must hold under all circumstances. :rolleyes:

Greater than 1.9x the screen width is not average for seats in theaters, unless your talking about pretty bad theaters. The THX minimum of 26 degrees for the worst case in the house (recommended is 36 degrees) puts the middle seat at around 1.2x the screen width for scope material. If theaters were built to THX recommendations the middle seats would be closer to .8x the screen width for scope material (less for 1.85:1 material in a constant height setup)

Darin, I respect your opinion highly on most topics here, but you are manipulating numbers here.

The majority of people here will use a 16:9 screen. Not 2.35. These are 16:9 imagers.

Using the SMPTE spec of 30 degrees (fair? I think it is given that it falls right within the two THX numbers), we are talking about 1.56 widths. And whenever I do shows with empty hotel rooms (by empty I mean no chairs), people usually settle in at about 1.5 widths as well.

And using 1.5x as the 1/60 degree of arc visual acuity (granted these are generalizations), if we are at 1.56, then we are beyond the point where we can identify resolution for 1080p. Not much, but still a little beyond.

So at 1.9 I can totally get how the choice can be made. Chris' informal testing matched the results of mine. 60" wide image, 12 FtL from both, no dynamic anything.

And last week I did a press event at Dolby Labs screening facility in NYC. DVD was one of my sources. Anyone who says that DVD is a crappy source hasn't seen what good video processing can do. Because at one point after demo'ing SW3 at 480i through HDMI into a VP-11S1, one person asked me how I managed to get such a clean HD copy of it. Yes, good HD is wonderful, but how a display device does with DVD reflects what many many people will be watching.

Hi

Alan warned us of not transforming this in a SXRD/LCoS/DILA vs DLp... The truth of the matter rest on the pricing... The Marantz better be a stupendous PJ because it faces stiff competition form a few 3-chip DLP and the 3-chip LCoS players... Statements about the lack of depth of LCoS are just that statements... the poster did not explain what he meant by depth... my personal opinion is that for now the Sony Ruby redefines the landscape of front projector and their pricing... a $20 K PJ that is not as good or only marginally superior in "some " areas may have a hard time in the market. That the reviewer bought tis review sample is a nice testimony and QQQ has stated it well.... but is the marantz superior to the LCoS competition? We shall see. I do have my doubts for now...

[QUOTE=Dan Miller]
Using the SMPTE spec of 30 degrees (fair? I think it is given that it falls right within the two THX numbers), we are talking about 1.56 widths. And whenever I do shows with empty hotel rooms (by empty I mean no chairs), people usually settle in at about 1.5 widths as well.
[QUOTE]

This is still very subjective. Some will choose 1.5, some 2.0, and others 1.0 or less. I do realize that you have to design a product that will sell to the masses and can't taylor it to specific needs. However, I, and I'm assuming others, are moving seats closer as the sources improve.

[QUOTE=Dan Miller]
So at 1.9 I can totally get how the choice can be made. Chris' informal testing matched the results of mine. 60" wide image, 12 FtL from both, no dynamic anything.
[QUOTE]

Are you saying that you did testing of the Ruby v the S4? If so, it sounds as if you did not use the dynamic iris on the Ruby....effectively eliminating one of its primary advantages.

[QUOTE=Dan Miller]
Yes, good HD is wonderful, but how a display device does with DVD reflects what many many people will be watching.
[Quote]

I would have to respectufully disagree with this. It seems to me that anyone that will spend around $20K for the VP-11S1 will have better sources than dvd. I'm sure they are also buying HDDVD as well.

Thanks

Are you saying that you did testing of the Ruby v the S4? If so, it sounds as if you did not use the dynamic iris on the Ruby....effectively eliminating one of its primary advantages.

Not at all. Dynamic circuits are inaccurate. Always have been, always will be. When JK created A Video Standard he told us to turn off things like auto color, auto black, etc... The small portion of videophiles knew this, but it was nice to have things confirmed. There is no difference with auto iris. I know it makes a picture seem "better", but when compared to a standard, it is plain wrong. Some people like it, but Marantz has been a company dedicated to high fidelity and fidelity means "faithful". You won't find dynamic circuits being used in control rooms on Sony or Ikegami broadcast grade video monitors and that will be our video reference. Other manufacturers are free to have features that will appeal to certain customers and guarantee sales. That's not what we do, those aren't our customers and we will sell every one we build. But it was interesting that we were able to stand side by side last week with a D Cinema projector in every area except brightness (obviously) and we had more depth, due to the better CR.

Anyone who says that DVD is a crappy source hasn't seen what good video processing can do.

Oh come on Dan, what is good video processing? The big Teranex for over 5 times the price of the 11S1, a nice unit from Snell & Wilcox, a Vantage, Crystalio, Faroudja, Lumagen, ...? None of these solutions will make DVD look really good. Of course you'll always have people here and there who do not have much experience with video and they'll tell you it looks "almost as good as HD".

There are also projectors out there, that cover the flaws of a bad source, but they also cover things from excellent sources, which makes it look worse in the end.



Yes, good HD is wonderful, but how a display device does with DVD reflects what many many people will be watching.

And that's the problem, it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to display average sources resulting in average quality for the average user, then of course DVD may be your source of choice. For us videophiles who want the best possible, DVD is just not gonna cut it anymore. When I want to make jaws drop, I usually use high bitrate (40 to 50mbps) HD material or some uncompressed japanese stuff. Then there are always HD broadcast which can be around 25 to 30mbps. When you do a demo again, try to use some high quality HD and then use the DVD in comparison, I'd really like to know how many people think it looks like HD after that.


Anyway, since you're here reading this, can we expect a nice 3-chip 1080p DLP from Marantz soon? Bright enough for a 20' to 22' wide screen with a CR over 6000:1, which is also not to expensive? $50k to $60k would be okay.

Has the brightness (# of lumens, calibrated for HT) been reported?

There is no difference with auto iris. I know it makes a picture seem "better", but when compared to a standard, it is plain wrong. .
How exactly is it plain wrong when the scene in question does not exceed the native contrast of the projector (without DI)? We know that something has got to give when scene contrast > native contrast but that is really not always the case. And the Marantz is wrong as well. Any pojector that offers gray when black is needed is wrong by definition. Chose your poison.

How exactly is it plain wrong when the scene in question does not exceed the native contrast of the projector (without DI)? We know that something has got to give when scene contrast > native contrast but that is really not always the case. And the Marantz is wrong as well. Any pojector that offers gray when black is needed is wrong by definition. Chose your poison.

Then every projector of any technology (CRT/DLP/LCD/LCoS) is wrong by your definition. They all have a measurable, non-zero output. CRTs are extremely low but not zero at black. I suppose if you shut a CRT down completely you'd have zero output as limited by the background ambient light level but the PQ then is abyssmal.

There's really only one "true black", but you'd have to enter a black hole to experience it ;)

Why the apparent hostility?



Cheers,

Dan Miller
What is the relative brightness of lamp eco to lamp full with the latter as 100 percent?
What is the relative brightness of high contrast to high brigtness with the latter as 100 percent?

Not at all. Dynamic circuits are inaccurate. Always have been, always will be. When JK created A Video Standard he told us to turn off things like auto color, auto black, etc... The small portion of videophiles knew this, but it was nice to have things confirmed. There is no difference with auto iris. I know it makes a picture seem "better", but when compared to a standard, it is plain wrong. Some people like it, but Marantz has been a company dedicated to high fidelity and fidelity means "faithful". You won't find dynamic circuits being used in control rooms on Sony or Ikegami broadcast grade video monitors and that will be our video reference. Other manufacturers are free to have features that will appeal to certain customers and guarantee sales. That's not what we do, those aren't our customers and we will sell every one we build. But it was interesting that we were able to stand side by side last week with a D Cinema projector in every area except brightness (obviously) and we had more depth, due to the better CR.

I know this is probably a silly question after reading your reply..........but........will Marantz ever consider a dynamic iris implementation?

I understand your statement about image fidelity......but seems that Marantz could offer consumers the same option Sony has: iris on, iris off, and dynamic iris. Then the consumer could decide for himself.

In the end, everyone is happy. Consumer gets higher on/off w/ DI or unadulterated image fidelity w/o and Marantz gets more sales because of the improved marketability.

Thanks

Any manufacturer will consider any customer's recommendation. However, whether they should or would implement the suggestion is entirely another matter.

All this arguing the heck with all you guys. I only have one thing to say !!

Dan Im now doing reviews can you send me VP-11S1. Because Im just starting out my reviews are taking me a little longer so do not expect the unit back for a while :)

And that's the problem, it all depends on what you want to do. If you want to display average sources resulting in average quality for the average user, then of course DVD may be your source of choice. For us videophiles who want the best possible, DVD is just not gonna cut it anymore. When I want to make jaws drop, I usually use high bitrate (40 to 50mbps) HD material or some uncompressed japanese stuff. Then there are always HD broadcast which can be around 25 to 30mbps. When you do a demo again, try to use some high quality HD and then use the DVD in comparison, I'd really like to know how many people think it looks like HD after that.

Actually I was using 45 mbps HD first, followed up by the DVD. You would be surprised to see how good it looked when processed by the purpose-designed Gennum GF9351 solution. Even the people at the facility (I was using a room designed to academy standards) whose job it is to look at film and digital cinema all day long were impressed. As good as HD? Not by a long shot. Better than anyone in the room thought they ever could be? Hugely.

You guys know me. Before anything I'm a very picky videophile. Removing or minimizing distractions from projected video has been a hobby of mine since the whole thing started in the 70s. I have worked with the design team for this product since it was nothing more than a chip announcement. If I am offending any Ruby owners out here, then I'm sorry; that's not my intent. But this projector is in an entirely different league, as it should be.

Remember, a Holga camera and a Hasselblad both shoot on 120 format film. If all you are looking for is the resolution potential of medium format, then buy the Holga. You could use this analogy in many different things. We build premium products. We do not build to a price point; rather a quality level. These levels are demonstrable; if they don't matter to you, then that's your choice. But just because you can buy a projector that has the same resolution potential for less money is like saying that you can buy a car that has the same weight/horsepower ratio as a BMW M5 for less money too. That figure can equate to one measure of performance only. To some, that's all that matters. Not to me. I want the whole package, and if I can't afford it I wait until I can.

Finally, 25-30 mbps HD broadcasts? You guys over there are lucky. All we get here is 19.38.

All this arguing the heck with all you guys. I only have one thing to say !!

Dan Im now doing reviews can you send me VP-11S1. Because Im just starting out my reviews are taking me a little longer so do not expect the unit back for a while :)

ROFL!

As good as HD? Not by a long shot. Better than anyone in the room thought they ever could be? Hugely.

I'm not that easy to impress. :D



We do not build to a price point; rather a quality level.

That's how it should be. I want the best quality possible, then I worry about the price. That's why I have owned many projectors over the years, including units from $1k to those over $50k, that is also why I have no problem to buy speaker cables and power cords for thousands... all that matters is quality.

As soon as my dealer gets in the 11S1, I'll be sure to grab it and put it side by side to a Qualia 004, Ruby, JVC 10k, 9" CRT and maybe some 3-chips from Barco and Sim2.

Darin, I respect your opinion highly on most topics here, but you are manipulating numbers here.

The majority of people here will use a 16:9 screen. Not 2.35. These are 16:9 imagers.That doesn't matter. If they only limited themselves to 16:9 material it would make a difference, but even you mentioned a 2.35:1 source here and if you watch a 2.35:1 source from 1.9x the screen width on a 16:9 screen you are way beyond the average ratio for movie theaters for the same movie and are more like in the back seat of a THX theater built to their minimum requirements (not even their recommendation).
Using the SMPTE spec of 30 degrees (fair? I think it is given that it falls right within the two THX numbers), we are talking about 1.56 widths. The THX numbers are for the worst seat in the house, so that does not match up with average seats in theaters. For 2.35:1 material 30 degrees matches up with seats quite a ways beyond halfway back in the theater.

BTW: What was that SMPTE 30 degrees for? Was it for 1080p sources on 1080p projectors, film sources, or sources and displays that are less than what we can get now? As you know, if they decided 30 degrees because of inferior sources and displays then it really doesn't apply to those getting the best that is available today.
And whenever I do shows with empty hotel rooms (by empty I mean no chairs), people usually settle in at about 1.5 widths as well.

And using 1.5x as the 1/60 degree of arc visual acuity (granted these are generalizations), if we are at 1.56, then we are beyond the point where we can identify resolution for 1080p. Not much, but still a little beyond.By that math at 1.56 you are within the distance where 720p is a limitation. So, even if you don't give full credit to 1080p over 720p from there, you have to give the credit for the amount we can see beyond 720p.
So at 1.9 I can totally get how the choice can be made. Chris' informal testing matched the results of mine. 60" wide image, 12 FtL from both, no dynamic anything.Did you also limit sources to DVD like Chris did?
Anyone who says that DVD is a crappy source hasn't seen what good video processing can do.DVD is an inferior source, which doesn't mean it is crappy. The S4 does a very nice job with it, but pick any movie and DVD is inferior to an HD source of it (unless the HD source is messed up). Shrek 2 looked very good on DVD also, but not as good as an HD version.
Because at one point after demo'ing SW3 at 480i through HDMI into a VP-11S1, one person asked me how I managed to get such a clean HD copy of it. Yes, good HD is wonderful, but how a display device does with DVD reflects what many many people will be watching.SW3 is one of the best looking DVDs in existence. If you had seen an HD version at Definitive Audio a week or two ago with a 1080p projector I think you would have seen how much better an HD version of that same movie can look. And you could do the same thing with this 1080p 11S1 and an HD version of it from a good source (not DIRECTV). Yes, some HD is bad just as some masters of movies are bad and a different movie on DVD can look great or even better overall in comparison. But limiting the content to 480i (or 480p) to compare a 720p to a 1080p projector is definitely skewing the results. I didn't say that DVDs shouldn't be used, but I think anybody can see how excluding HD changes things.

How would you feel about people comparing a different model of 720p projector to the 11S1, using no HD, and having everybody at 1.9x the screen width to decide if the 11S1 was worth the premium?

--Darin

I know it makes a picture seem "better", but when compared to a standard, it is plain wrong.As mhafner pretty much pointed out, by sticking with lower on/off CR you are choosing to continue to be further from the standard for your absolute black level.
You won't find dynamic circuits being used in control rooms on Sony or Ikegami broadcast grade video monitors and that will be our video reference.They don't really need them in the same way because they already have high on/off CRs and if that is your video reference then your black level is still wrong. You have to pick your poison. The dynamic iris can make some things be different than the standards, just as your choice of no dynamic iris means your black level is higher than that video reference. Also, those reference monitors have gammas that I believe Marantz has purposely not matched because they feel that their gammas work better for their displays and I understand that logic.
... and we had more depth, due to the better CR.Yep. And you could have even more depth in some scenes with a dynamic iris because you would have even more CR in those scenes. But you have to choose your poison as the technology is not there to meet the standards in all areas as of today.
Then every projector of any technology (CRT/DLP/LCD/LCoS) is wrong by your definition. They all have a measurable, non-zero output. CRTs are extremely low but not zero at black. If you read the standards (every standard I've seen calls for zero light for video black) then they are. But, if you decide to use the broadcast monitors as the standard/reference then these others are all wrong in at least this way. The DLPs as of today are all definitely wrong for their absolute black levels compared to the broadcast monitors. They could choose to use dynamic irises to get closer to that reference in that way, but there are tradeoffs and it depends on how good the implementation is.

For those who say that a dynamic iris is wrong because things don't meet the standards I would ask the following. If somebody designed a system where every level other than video black stayed right where it was (the iris would only close down if it wouldn't move any of those levels) while video black went down (closer to the standard and to the reference) then would you have a problem with that system as far as its performance vs the standards? It would be closer to the standards, not further away from the standards, so what would the problem be?

None of this is to say that dynamic irises can't have weak implementations, they definitely can.

--Darin

Then every projector of any technology (CRT/DLP/LCD/LCoS) is wrong by your definition. They all have a measurable, non-zero output. CRTs are extremely low but not zero at black. I suppose if you shut a CRT down completely you'd have zero output as limited by the background ambient light level but the PQ then is abyssmal.


Cheers,

I am not sure if you are talking about shadow detail, but tse's gamma circuit was designed to give black and shadow detail together.



Actually I was using 45 mbps HD first, followed up by the DVD. You would be surprised to see how good it looked when processed by the purpose-designed Gennum GF9351 solution. Even the people at the facility (I was using a room designed to academy standards) whose job it is to look at film and digital cinema all day long were impressed. As good as HD? Not by a long shot. Better than anyone in the room thought they ever could be? Hugely.


I think your choice of Gennum speaks pretty loudly. It looks like it may be an easier solution to implement than the Realta. I would love to see how the Gennum chips compare to the new DVDO chips. Also while I think the Gennum is great for SD, I think a lot of people here use HD as their standard for comparison.

Dan,
Do you have any desire to implement the Dynamic Black option that TI was demonstrating at Infocomm?

Ohlson and William,
How are those fill factors measured? Do these numbers include a MTF number to go along with it?

Ericglo

If you read the standards (every standard I've seen calls for zero light for video black) then they are. But, if you decide to use the broadcast monitors as the standard/reference then these others are all wrong in at least this way. The DLPs as of today are all definitely wrong for their absolute black levels compared to the broadcast monitors. They could choose to use dynamic irises to get closer to that reference in that way, but there are tradeoffs and it depends on how good the implementation is.

So it's a matter of picking which "wrong" you want to live with. That's the damned real world for you! It's all tradeoffs in the end.

Cheers,

="ericglo"I am not sure if you are talking about shadow detail, but tse's gamma circuit was designed to give black and shadow detail together.

And CRT has issues with pixel bleed and ansi contrast compared to digitals. So then you have to ask yourself, how much is shadow detail; and how much is error due to ANSI limitations.

As darin says; pick your poison as nothing is perfect.

Cheers,

Actually I was using 45 mbps HD first, followed up by the DVD. You would be surprised to see how good it looked when processed by the purpose-designed Gennum GF9351 solution. Even the people at the facility (I was using a room designed to academy standards) whose job it is to look at film and digital cinema all day long were impressed. As good as HD? Not by a long shot. Better than anyone in the room thought they ever could be? Hugely.

Not to break up all the fun ( ;) ), but how close is your Gennum solution to that used in the Anthem statement D2? Are they identical?

I noticed on the website the S1 states "Newly udpated Gennum VXP processing" does that mean its using the smaller, lower power, chip or are there other image quality improvements as well?

All this arguing the heck with all you guys. I only have one thing to say !!

Dan Im now doing reviews can you send me VP-11S1. Because Im just starting out my reviews are taking me a little longer so do not expect the unit back for a while :)
Dan,

Don't listen to Alan. If you send me a VP-11S and go with my top review option I'll write a review 17.21x as positive as Alan. I use a sliding scale for my review plans so that manufacturers can choose the review plan that's best for them. Be forewarned, the top Platinum review plan is only available to one manufacturer of said type product per year, and once another manufacturer signs on you'll be limited to the Gold or Silver plans (or lower). With the Platinum plan I'll not only say the VP-11S is the best projector I've ever seen, I'll claim that women love it and that it cures cancer. As part of the Plantinum plan I also agree to keep the projector for one year and provide feedback for future models at no charge.

Thanks for the heads up Brian. Any more thoughts regarding the noise level of the projector?

Then every projector of any technology (CRT/DLP/LCD/LCoS) is wrong by your definition.

It is a soon as black does not look black. We all know that you can get away with gray for black in some situations since it looks the same as black due to brighter image parts dominating eye adaptation. The question is how often can you see it's wrong. I'd bet quite some more on the Marantz at 6000:1 than on the Ruby with DI which in turn looks wrong more often than a good CRT in this regard. The perfect projector we are all still waiting for and will so for quite some time.

There's really only one "true black", but you'd have to enter a black hole to experience it ;)

We want perceptional black or lack of apparent haze. 100% true measurable black is not required beyond very rare total blackouts for extended periods of time (pretty irrelevant in day to day movie watching).

Why the apparent hostility?

Unfair bashing of a product from the competition maybe?
I don't think anybody here doubts the Marantz will be a very nice projector with better performance (technically) than the Ruby in some areas, but not all. It's the claim of total superiority that is annoying since clearly any projector that has rainbows and other DLP artifacts (which are visible to people sensitive to them) and less On-Off contrast will perform worse than the Ruby to people for which these things matter a lot.

Dan Miller
Avsforum is a tough place. You are now releasing a projector that should be excellent but not godlike=perfect.
It would be interesting to hear more about the improved VXP as has been asked about by a poster above.
Do you have an answer to my relative brightness questions?

mhafner
Since it is public that Mitsubishi is productizing laser dlp I guess we should expect it from more manufacturers. That would allow perfect fade to total blacks and hopefully an easier implementation of a nice DynamicBlack implementation. However I see nothing now that is addressing point by point (pixel by pixel) brightness control. Do you have any reason to replace a crt?

Dan,

...

As part of the Plantinum plan I also agree to keep the projector for one year and provide feedback for future models at no charge.

The women, or the projectors? ;)

Wow..did this thread start running or what? lol

fwiw..in out test, people were NOT limited to 17ft. that is where we started watching the various superbits cause that's how far we had both PJ's. There were no seats there, people were free to walk around & stand wherever they liked & as close as they wanted to the screen (which many did) and then decide what they all prefered.

Btw, not even 1 person other than myself knew what type of PJ's we were going to use to prevent bias's.

For those that still continue to bring the topic of HD sources not used I am planning to re-run this test again in the near future here in Woodbridge Ontario with HD DVD & Blu-ray players present.

I own & run the "Best" DVD store in Canada according to some major newspapers that did reviews on us, and am happy to announce that we have many Denon & Marantz employees that are members here at DVD Mansion. I will try and convince them to lend me a Marantz VP-11S1 before I run my next test alongside a 12S4 & a Ruby.

Stay tuned...

And CRT has issues with pixel bleed and ansi contrast compared to digitals. So then you have to ask yourself, how much is shadow detail; and how much is error due to ANSI limitations.

As darin says; pick your poison as nothing is perfect.

Cheers,

I think pixel bleed needs to be measured with MTF. I would guess the MTF of CRT and LCOS to be roughly similar. The MTF of DLP is probably quite a bit higher, which may account for the sharper image. DLP's MTF may also be the reason it has a high ANSI contrast ratio. I would love to see some MTF numbers on LCOS, LCD and DLP.

I agree on pick your poison.

Ericglo

Don't listen to Alan. If you send me a VP-11S and go with my top review option I'll write a review 17.21x as positive as Alan. I use a sliding scale for my review plans so that manufacturers can choose the review plan that's best for them. Be forewarned, the top Platinum review plan is only available to one manufacturer of said type product per year, and once another manufacturer signs on you'll be limited to the Gold or Silver plans (or lower). With the Platinum plan I'll not only say the VP-11S is the best projector I've ever seen, I'll claim that women love it and that it cures cancer. As part of the Plantinum plan I also agree to keep the projector for one year and provide feedback for future models at no charge.

I actually pioneered the service you're offering (http://codebloat.com/template.cfm?ArticleNumber=8).

Do you have any reason to replace a crt?
I'll tell you when mine works again and I have looked at 1080p from HD-DVD in detail. :)

I actually pioneered the service you're offering (http://codebloat.com/template.cfm?ArticleNumber=8).
ROFL. I love it. There is a link in thirdkinds post worth reading for anyone that missed it.

Why would ANYONE use inferior source to compare two projectors? It's sounds if he/she didn't wanted the projector with higher resolution to have it's advantage.

SW3 are a really good DVD, but compare it to the HD version and it's downward FLAT and this would be a perfect example to use to see the difference between 720P and 1080P up close (not 1,8 away from the screen).

DVD SW3:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5285/dvd7rh.jpg

HD:
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7116/hd9wo.jpg

I'll tell you when mine works again and I have looked at 1080p from HD-DVD in detail. :)

Don't you have a Barco 909? How long has it been out of service?

Ericglo

Dan Miller, you are either a brave man or a masochist. I commend you for continuing to inform us about the new Marantz 1080p 1 chip projector. You are trying to do your job by "spinning" ( my projector is better than all others and price does not matter) in the "no spin zone" ( AVS forum populated by very technical A/V connoisseurs) Good luck! I believe price/perfomance is the most important perfomance parameter! I love Marantz but not at any price. Sandy

You are trying to do your job by "spinning" ( my projector is better than all others and price does not matter) in the "no spin zone" ( AVS forum populated by very technical A/V connoisseurs) Good luck! I believe price/perfomance is the most important perfomance parameter! I love Marantz but not at any price. Sandy
Spin comes in all forms Sandy. As a Ruby owner, and a quite vocal one at that, one could say you offer some spin yourself. Price is one parameter, performance is another. They are not the same in my book. Considered together, they help me to determine the value a product has to me, which is entirely relative, as it is with all of us :).

Don't you have a Barco 909? How long has it been out of service?

Ericglo

> 6 months. But I did not invest much time so far since I'm too busy with other things. :(

> 6 months. But I did not invest much time so far since I'm too busy with other things. :(

Sorry to hear that. :(

Send it to me.....I've got time :D

Why would ANYONE use inferior source to compare two projectors? It's sounds if he/she didn't wanted the projector with higher resolution to have it's advantage.

SW3 are a really good DVD, but compare it to the HD version and it's downward FLAT and this would be a perfect example to use to see the difference between 720P and 1080P up close (not 1,8 away from the screen).

DVD SW3:
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5285/dvd7rh.jpg

HD:
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7116/hd9wo.jpg

Thanks for the pics. Easily demonstrates the value of higher rez.

QQQ, I agree that we are all influenced by our likes and dislikes and everyone is different in that respect. The only thing I ever said about the Ruby is that it represents ( at this point in time) one of the best price / perfomance ratios in the front projector area taking all perfomance parameters and street price into consideration. I agree that many different projectors will out perform the Ruby in some specific area. Some people may rate one parameter higher in their priority list than another but I think that at this point in time, few would argue with my basic conclusion. Even though I do own a Ruby I believe better price perfomance ratio projectors will eventually arrive and then I'll say XYZ represents the best value at this point. I dont believe that the VP-11s1 is a better value. I am not preaching "Ruby is the best", I am preaching " best value" whatever it may be at the time.

My only point with Dan is that he would like us to focus on the VP-11s1 perfomance and ignore the price. For most of us price/perfomance is one of the most important parameters in choosing a projector. You quickly reach a point of diminishing returns where the cost goes up nonlinerly vs perfomance. The real trick is to hit the sweet spot with good enough perfomance in all areas at a low relative price. Few people would buy a projector based only on perfomance and not price. And those that do would be looking at 3 chippers not a 1 chip. I have yet to see Dan say that any projector does anything better than his Marantz ( That is spin which he is paid to do ) Nothing wrong with doing your job but spin is spin.

Sandy

I have yet to see Dan say that any projector does anything better than his Marantz

Sandy


On a 720P 1 chipper there isn't one. Hands down the S4 kills the competition and NO I do not own a Marantz or ever did, I have the H79.

On the 1080P side I don't know yet since I haven't seen the VP-11S1 but if I was a betting man I would bet that it would probably have the best pic out there we shall soon see.

Sandy,
If price/performance is such a big point for you and most people as you say, then why not choose a CRT. It will win the price/performance category. I think people will look at the manufacturer and picture to decide if it is worth the added expense. My guess is that Marantz doesn't sell a whole bunch of pjs, so they don't need to convince a large group of people.

Ericglo

Brian

Please post some pictures of the projector and some screen shots... :)

Aloha Glen

QQQ, I agree that we are all influenced by our likes and dislikes and everyone is different in that respect. The only thing I ever said about the Ruby is that it represents ( at this point in time) one of the best price / perfomance ratios in the front projector area taking all perfomance parameters and street price into consideration. I agree that many different projectors will out perform the Ruby in some specific area. Some people may rate one parameter higher in their priority list than another but I think that at this point in time, few would argue with my basic conclusion. Even though I do own a Ruby I believe better price perfomance ratio projectors will eventually arrive and then I'll say XYZ represents the best value at this point. I dont believe that the VP-11s1 is a better value. I am not preaching "Ruby is the best", I am preaching " best value" whatever it may be at the time.

My only point with Dan is that he would like us to focus on the VP-11s1 perfomance and ignore the price. For most of us price/perfomance is one of the most important parameters in choosing a projector. You quickly reach a point of diminishing returns where the cost goes up nonlinerly vs perfomance. The real trick is to hit the sweet spot with good enough perfomance in all areas at a low relative price. Few people would buy a projector based only on perfomance and not price. And those that do would be looking at 3 chippers not a 1 chip. I have yet to see Dan say that any projector does anything better than his Marantz ( That is spin which he is paid to do ) Nothing wrong with doing your job but spin is spin.

Sandy


Ditto. Very well stated. The price is no object crowd wears me out.

My only point with Dan is that he would like us to focus on the VP-11s1 perfomance and ignore the price. For most of us price/perfomance is one of the most important parameters in choosing a projector. You quickly reach a point of diminishing returns where the cost goes up nonlinerly vs perfomance.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but - I don't think the above statement is entirely accurate. From what I have read of Dan's posts, he never suggests "ignore the price", but rather explains why Marantz believes the price is appropriate. Better optics, fewer short-cuts, etc. He also adds that Marantz does not target the "value only" customer, but rather the quality build/components/performance customer. So your objections reside specifically outside their target market and attempt to apply their business model to an audience they don't entice. If they don't, why should you?

The real trick is to hit the sweet spot with good enough perfomance in all areas at a low relative price. Few people would buy a projector based only on perfomance and not price. And those that do would be looking at 3 chippers not a 1 chip.

Same answer. You are arbitrarily changing their market. I'm sure they could do what you say is "the real trick" if they desired. But, they obviously don't wish to. They prefer the "few people" you describe and they apparently don't suffer in finding them vis a vis their sales success.

]I have yet to see Dan say that any projector does anything better than his Marantz ( That is spin which he is paid to do ) Nothing wrong with doing your job but spin is spin.Sandy

This is also inaccurate. I recall Dan reporting on some comparisons wherein he (naturally) trumpeted his product's better perfomance over Rubies, et. al. However, he also mentioned an area or two where his product was less successful, such as light output against brighter competition (not the Ruby). Of course it's his job to sell/promote his product and I think he does it in a fair way with as little "spin" as possible. While I agree that Marantz misses the value/perf. Ruby-type crowd, which is fairly large - they still manage good sales to their intended market. While smaller, it is a market that exists and needs such a product, or the units would sit on shelves unsold.

We don't all want plain vanilla ice cream with no choices, improvements or flavors, simply because a certain vocal majority feel that only a mass-market, value oriented and, therefore, somewhat flawed item presently exists and is our personal "flavor of the month". I know I didn't. While I didn't buy Marantz (sorry Dan), I went against conventional logic as presented here for value/performance and bought the more expensive Sim2 C3X Lite. I spent more, but I am very happy with my product and don't for a minute have buyer's remorse - I believe I got what I paid for. This is the stance I think Marantz has taken. There's room for more than one level and one price point. Let the marketplace decide.

Ditto. Very well stated.

Flawed logic and inaccurate IMO. See response above.

The price is no object crowd wears me out.

Sorry to see you are so intolerant of those who do not share your views or financial means. There will always be these differences. I might wish to be in the "price is no object" crowd (since I am most decidely not), but knowing that just being in that position draws comments of "wears me out", ...well, intolerant is the best face I can put on it for now.

Sorry to see you are so intolerant of those who do not share your views or financial means. There will always be these differences. I might wish to be in the "price is no object" crowd (since I am most decidely not), but knowing that just being in that position draws comments of "wears me out", ...well, intolerant is the best face I can put on it for now.

Actually, if memory serves, Kraig had the $30K HD2K when it was one of the "must have" pj's and now has a ruby.

My point being, that even a guy who can and will spend $30k on a pj recognizes the value of spending less.......for a better performing one.

My point being, that even a guy who can and will spend $30k on a pj recognizes the value of spending less.......for a better performing one.

No argument from me on that, but my point was the apparent intolerance of the original statement for a specific group's opinion. Simultaneously being a part of that group doesn't change a thing.

In my opinion Marantz is going down the RUNCO path. This will be a slow fade away from most users here., They are obviously wanting to now cater to a different crowd.

I am guessing the value(price vs performance) of this new Marantz PJ is quickly going bye bye. 20K for a 1 chip DLP with the little spining color wheel is laughable. I know BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH, but bottom line it is still single chip with a spinning color wheel for 20K. If the one chip is so good, then why not make it a three chipper? Let me guess that will be a next years 55K PJ.

The S4 will be remembered as the best Value marantz has put out in a PJ, everything else is BLAH BLAH BLAH, however I am still waiting for gregs final word on the product myself, and my have to eat my own words(dont mind if I am wrong) but right now it looks like snake oil.

The S4 will be remembered as the best Value marantz has put out in a PJ, everything else is BLAH BLAH BLAH, however I am still waiting for gregs final word on the product myself, and my have to eat my own words(dont mind if I am wrong) but right now it looks like snake oil.

Interesting that you would say the S4. I would have said the S2. That was the true breakthrough with CR and the right feature set. Or maybe it was the S3 with 50% higher CR and included color analyzer and the industry's only DC Bulb. Or maybe it really is the S4 with its production quality video processing and the industry's only color corrrected light source.

The price went up with every version.

It just shows how your own perception can dictate what is "true". And your own preconceived notions.

You need to sit down and try to fathom what is really going on with the little spinning color wheel. Because calling it "laughable" is laughable. I don't enjoy using that term, but because there is a vauge resemblence to the original method for doing color, you throw it to the dogs? Ever wonder why you can see many more color breakup artifacts on some projectors vs others that have the same speed wheel? Hmmmm... Maybe there is something to a cast aluminum/magnesium chassis other than being able to say you have one.

Look at what is happening here. No one reading this besides Brian, who just reviewed it has seen it yet (with the exception of a few dealers who just took delivery probably today). Yet the very thought that it could be really really good causes so many people here to start slinging whatever they can find.

Imagine the extra precision involved with aligning three chips with over two million pixels at a pitch of 10 microns and you can start to see why there isn't any 3 chippers yet.

I'm not going to defend our position or our pricing any more. Like it or don't. I can sleep fine, and as long as my kids can eat, then I'm ok.

Dan-
I normally don't chime in on these discussions of price/performance because I understand everyone calculates them differently. That said...

What doesn't sit well with me is the way Marantz significantly increases their prices for all markets outside of Japan/HK. The laundry list of 'performance' components is a tough pill to swallow when the exact same unit sells for half as much in Japan. It reminds me a lot of Epson in the LCD space which, admittedly, uses better quality components than the Pannys/Sanyos of the world. They have a premium product which gets great reviews... as such they sell it for a few hundred more than their competition in Japan and Europe. However, when exported to the US, it all of a sudden got a >100% mark-up!

BTW, I do understand the concept of selling at a price the market will bear and respect the tactic. However, describing the 'premium features' in such a way that including them is what forced you to raise prices will ring hollow with many when Marantz is able to profit fine in other markets using the same components.

I do very much appreciate your presence here on the boards and don't mean this to be a personal attack. It is great to see manufacturers reaching out their customers. I am just a little dissapointed with the direction Marantz has taken in terms of price as of late.
-Matt

Matt, I think the reason for the price difference between Japan/HK and the US has to do with the sales channel. In the US Marantz sells through boutique dealers ( low volume / high margins ) with a pricing model similar to Runco. They have to inflate U.S. msrp to allow the dealer the large margins it takes to compete with Runco otherwise dealers will push Runcos if it makes them more money per sale.
Sandy

I think its poor form, at best, to put Dan on the spot to defend D&M's pricing structure on this forum. What exactly do you hope to gain with such a discussion? Do you expect him to agree and slander his employer? (which, incidentally, is not some rebranding chop shop for those who havent noticed)

Dan and other vendors add immeasureable value on these forums, period. They provide invaluable insights into optimal configurations, the reasons why design decisions were made, respond to issues, etc. They are an asset to this community. These kinds of discussions (i.e. the kind in THIS thread) do nothing but drive away the people we hope to attract to a community like this.

As far as I can tell, Dan hasnt said the S1 is the biggest bang for the buck for everyone, thats a personal decision. However, very often in this hobby people have been willing time and time again to pay 80% more money for 10% more performance, and 10% is on the BEST days. Marantz projectors strive for the highest quality (i owned an S2 and nothing since has come close in build quality or 'fit n finish) and have been an innovator as well so when they cost a bit more, its for the 10% most everyone in this hobby is looking for. If you disagree, buy something else; but don't come on the forum and decide whats a good value propostiion for everyone and then ask Dan to defend D&M's price when it doesnt match up.

What doesn't sit well with me is the way Marantz significantly increases their prices for all markets outside of Japan/HK. The laundry list of 'performance' components is a tough pill to swallow when the exact same unit sells for half as much in Japan. It reminds me a lot of Epson in the LCD space which, admittedly, uses better quality components than the Pannys/Sanyos of the world. They have a premium product which gets great reviews... as such they sell it for a few hundred more than their competition in Japan and Europe. However, when exported to the US, it all of a sudden got a >100% mark-up!
What do you base your statements on? I'm not saying they are incorrect, I don't follow the price of what it costs overseas. But I was under the impression that the only Marantz PJ that has the huge variance in price was the original S1 (or perhaps it ended with the S2).

What do you base your statements on? I'm not saying they are incorrect, I don't follow the price of what it costs overseas. But I was under the impression that the only Marantz PJ that has the huge variance in price was the original S1 (or perhaps it ended with the S2).
I did a quick search on a Japanese shopping site and found it selling for between $5-8.7K. I don't read Japanese and the translators didn't work so maybe they were used or something but I doubt it. I also can't comment on how reputable the dealers are but it's my understanding that internet dealers are authorized in Japan so warranties should apply.

Again, I understand how different sales channels work and why they are sometimes necessary (I used to work for Intel ;) ). I just wanted to point out that if a price is being justified by the quality of components, that it only works when they form the basis for the premium price. If prices are indeed much lower in Japan, it would run counter to that reasoning...

I'm not trying to scare Dan off. Frankly, I've read a lot worse on this forum which Dan has toughed his way through. I just trying to point out a reason why people might be frustrated with Marantz's increasing price structure on products which, from most manufacturers, drop in price/increase in features with each iteration. For all I know, TI may be jacking up prices for 1080p DMDs and Marantz is doing the best they can with the components they've selected. I guess when the Japanese prices on the S1 come out we'll know...
-Matt

I think its poor form, at best, to put Dan on the spot to defend D&M's pricing structure on this forum. What exactly do you hope to gain with such a discussion? Do you expect him to agree and slander his employer? (which, incidentally, is not some rebranding chop shop for those who havent noticed)

Dan and other vendors add immeasureable value on these forums, period. They provide invaluable insights into optimal configurations, the reasons why design decisions were made, respond to issues, etc. They are an asset to this community. These kinds of discussions (i.e. the kind in THIS thread) do nothing but drive away the people we hope to attract to a community like this.

As far as I can tell, Dan hasnt said the S1 is the biggest bang for the buck for everyone, thats a personal decision. However, very often in this hobby people have been willing time and time again to pay 80% more money for 10% more performance, and 10% is on the BEST days. Marantz projectors strive for the highest quality (i owned an S2 and nothing since has come close in build quality or 'fit n finish) and have been an innovator as well so when they cost a bit more, its for the 10% most everyone in this hobby is looking for. If you disagree, buy something else; but don't come on the forum and decide whats a good value propostiion for everyone and then ask Dan to defend D&M's price when it doesnt match up.
So you only want us to post if we are blowing sunshine up his butt? :D

I somehow don't think that would be a good use of Dan's time on this forum. He is here to be a voice for the company, to promote products, to solve problems and to collect feedback from existing and potential customers. Frankly, we'd be doing Dan a diservice if we DIDN'T give him our honest opinions... It's up to him to decide how much weight to put on them. It would only take Dan a quick click over to my profile to see that I use a 4 year old $2K LCD and that he shouldn't put much weight on mine. :)
-Matt

I'm not going to defend our position or our pricing any more. Like it or don't. I can sleep fine, and as long as my kids can eat, then I'm ok.
Well said!

So you only want us to post if we are blowing sunshine up his butt? :D

I somehow don't think that would be a good use of Dan's time on this forum. He is here to be a voice for the company, to promote products, to solve problems and to collect feedback from existing and potential customers. Frankly, we'd be doing Dan a diservice if we DIDN'T give him our honest opinions... -Matt

Not at all. Like i said in my post:

Dan and other vendors add immeasureable value on these forums, period. They provide invaluable insights into optimal configurations, the reasons why design decisions were made, respond to issues, etc.

I think youre right and could add "product suggestions" onto that list, that's not entirely whats going on here though and certainly not what I found objectionable (and i wasnt singling any one person out).

But Dan can defend himself and his kids appear to be eating so.... :D

Spizz, Eric, Glenn,
Sorry for the slow response, have been slammed at the office. The VP-11S1 noise level is very close to the VP-12S4. I think it is slightly quieter, my wife says it is the same. I will grab my wife's digital camera and take some photographs in the next day or so. I will photograph a paused HD Tivo image and a paused HD DVD image. I haven't tried taking many screen shots so if you have any suggestions, please let me know.
Brian

thirdkind,
That is some funny $#it!

He is here to be a voice for the company, to promote products, to solve problems and to collect feedback from existing and potential customers.

I wish that were true. Actually I am here purely out of my passion. The powers-that-be would rather have me swear never to look here again. I have put my foot in the company mouth more times than I can remember. I am constantly searching for ways to redeem you guys.
:)

Dan,

"Ever wonder why you can see many more color breakup artifacts on some projectors vs others that have the same speed wheel? Hmmmm... Maybe there is something to a cast aluminum/magnesium chassis other than being able to say you have one."

That's a head-scratcher. Are you saying the chassis has something to do with less RBE?

I'd have thought the increased CW speed would explain it.

I believe he is refering to the rigidity/stability of the chassis translating into stability of the picture.

I wish that were true. Actually I am here purely out of my passion. The powers-that-be would rather have me swear never to look here again. I have put my foot in the company mouth more times than I can remember. I am constantly searching for ways to redeem you guys.
:)
So does that mean you DO want us to blow sunshine up your butt or not? :D

BTW, after responding to your PM as to where I found the pricing, I realized there was an error on the search engine. I follwed the link to the low price S4 ($5K) and it actually redirected me to the next higher one ($8.7K). So it looks like $8.7K is the lowest I found (+ 5% to import)... I just wanted to correct that for everyone.
-Matt

Excellent stuff! Thanks Brian :)

Dan,
Regarding the quote below from Brian Kahn's review,

A new option will let the VP-11S1 take advantage of the current rage of constant height 2:35:1 capabilities. With this option, a special lens will slide into place and Vertical Stretch Mode will engage when 2:35:1 movies are played, which will give the projector the ability to stretch the image to use the full resolution of the chip on the actual image, rather than the black bars. This option is not yet available, but will feature an anamorphic lens that will slide into place when an extra-wide ratio image is being projected.

Can you give us more details about this option. Are Marantz using their own lens (Minolta-Konica?), or is the unit OEM from Isco? (as Runco and Sim are doing)

Brian talks of the lens "sliding into place". Will this be somehow attached to the the projector or on a separate assembly?

Sandy,
If price/performance is such a big point for you and most people as you say, then why not choose a CRT. It will win the price/performance category. I think people will look at the manufacturer and picture to decide if it is worth the added expense. My guess is that Marantz doesn't sell a whole bunch of pjs, so they don't need to convince a large group of people.

Ericglo

You are ignoring the spirit of his discussion of "value".

While not stricty a "performance" characteristic, there are logistical issues that also afftect value. A few off the top of my head w/ CRT include:


Cost of convergance/calibration
size
heat output
warm-up time
mounting/room concerns
supportability
etc...


So while I might get a technically superior picture out of a CRT, if it won't fit in my room, that "value" parameter just skewed the whole thing out of favor.

Taking your argument to it's logical conclusion: go see that thread by the guy with the ILA projector... beautiful picture from a machine that had to be delivered on a truck, requires 220V A/C power, and produces 16,000 btu's....

Dan,
Regarding the quote below from Brian Kahn's review,



Can you give us more details about this option. Are Marantz using their own lens (Minolta-Konica?), or is the unit OEM from Isco? (as Runco and Sim are doing)

Brian talks of the lens "sliding into place". Will this be somehow attached to the the projector or on a separate assembly?

We are evaluating several options. The goal is to have it be ordered from us even if OEM'd from somewhere else.

The important part was to make sure that the video processing was configured properly for it and that it would tie into a screen trigger to move a motorized mount into place. That is in place currently.

Spizz, Eric, Glenn,
Sorry for the slow response, have been slammed at the office. The VP-11S1 noise level is very close to the VP-12S4. I think it is slightly quieter, my wife says it is the same. I will grab my wife's digital camera and take some photographs in the next day or so. I will photograph a paused HD Tivo image and a paused HD DVD image. I haven't tried taking many screen shots so if you have any suggestions, please let me know.
Brian

Remember the Toshiba HD DVD player implements a "field pause". :(

I greatly appreciate Dan's candor on this website as well as other product reps like Tsung Li with Optoma. Wish others would join in.

I am not a stranger to audio/video or home theater, but I am looking to buy my first PJ. I want the newer technology not CRT. I'm sure the S1 is stunning. But in this day of better PJ's AND dropping prices it was disappionting for me to see this one go the opposite direction.

As stated by others, each has their own point of price/diminshing returns, and the S1 exceeds mine, as well as quite a few others. I don't think anyone is cracking on the S1 qualitiy, just expressing their disappointment that it exceeds their threshold of pocketbook pain for what it is.

Ever wonder why you can see many more color breakup artifacts on some projectors vs others that have the same speed wheel? Hmmmm... Maybe there is something to a cast aluminum/magnesium chassis other than being able to say you have one.

While that is true, it is also true that RBE can't be removed from 1-chip projectors completely. You can only reduce it by so much. The question is how easily the eye and brain of the viewer can be "fooled" not to see the artifacts.

I'm very sensitive to this stuff, but even I couldn't see it, my greatest fear would be to have 30 other people sitting in my HT and 5 of them walk out because they can see it.



Imagine the extra precision involved with aligning three chips with over two million pixels at a pitch of 10 microns and you can start to see why there isn't any 3 chippers yet.

You mean from Marantz? Because other manufacturers already have 1080p 3-chip DLPs and those units are not exactly new to the market.

My greatest disappointment with this pj is the lumen output reported in the review (see 1st post), only 600 or 700 lumens. Is nobody else concerned about this?

My greatest disappointment with this pj is the lumen output reported in the review (see 1st post), only 600 or 700 lumens. Is nobody else concerned about this?
That very much depends on what folks are using in terms of screen size/material and light control. I have a dark room (dark grey suede fabric covered walls) with complete light control and use a 110" wide 2.35-1 Screen reseach clearpix 2 material.

Already getting more than enough brightness from my Ruby which is now only around two thirds as bright as it was when new.

We are evaluating several options. The goal is to have it be ordered from us even if OEM'd from somewhere else.

The important part was to make sure that the video processing was configured properly for it and that it would tie into a screen trigger to move a motorized mount into place. That is in place currently.
Thanks Dan. Any timescale as to when this option will be available?
I've already ordered a projector for my dem room from Marantz UK who do not have any info regarding this option at this moment.

You mean from Marantz? Because other manufacturers already have 1080p 3-chip DLPs and those units are not exactly new to the market.

There are NO 3 chip 1080p .95" units on the market. TI has not even released development kits yet. There are D-Cinema pieces that use the 1.3" DC2K chip, but that's a completely different beast.

My greatest disappointment with this pj is the lumen output reported in the review (see 1st post), only 600 or 700 lumens. Is nobody else concerned about this?

This would be no different then all the Ruby owners who are content with its brightness in trade for the better contrast and black level.

While that is true, it is also true that RBE can't be removed from 1-chip projectors completely. You can only reduce it by so much. The question is how easily the eye and brain of the viewer can be "fooled" not to see the artifacts.

I'm very sensitive to this stuff, but even I couldn't see it, my greatest fear would be to have 30 other people sitting in my HT and 5 of them walk out because they can see it.

What you say is true in theory, although studies show that at 5x, less than 0.5% of the tested subjects noticed it. I can "show" anyone what it looks like, but in the almost 5 years since the original VP-12S1, I have shown my theater to over 500 people and not one person has complained, or even asked about it.

Now I mentioned before about the die cast chassis. In addition, we have gone through many different CW motors before choosing one stable enough in speed. That, combined with extremely precise lamp pulse/chip actuation timing is what results in extremely low RBE. Now this attribute comes at an expense, which is light output. Unlike others who value light output, we throw away light for CR and other PQ benefits.

When you take all of that and then increase the wheel speed to 6x which is what we did for the VP-11S1, it's tough. Last week at the press event, I watched people trying to see it and commenting that it was gone. Now granted, I didn't use test signals designed to show it, but we don't watch them in the real world.

You are ignoring the spirit of his discussion of "value".

While not stricty a "performance" characteristic, there are logistical issues that also afftect value. A few off the top of my head w/ CRT include:


Cost of convergance/calibration
size
heat output
warm-up time
mounting/room concerns
supportability
etc...


So while I might get a technically superior picture out of a CRT, if it won't fit in my room, that "value" parameter just skewed the whole thing out of favor.

Taking your argument to it's logical conclusion: go see that thread by the guy with the ILA projector... beautiful picture from a machine that had to be delivered on a truck, requires 220V A/C power, and produces 16,000 btu's....

He said price/performance. The performance means the image alone not the other parameters you brought up (as an aside the warm-up time is bs). I agree that the other parameters play a role in the decision, but he was making a point with the performance. In the digital realm, a Canon, Panny or any of the low cost DLPs would give you better price/performance. Just like in the computer world, a middle of the line CPU or graphics card will give you better price/performance than a top of the line product.

I just think everyone should see the pj first. If it does perform better than one can decide if the delta is great enough to justify the cost.

Ericglo
P.S. - I don't believe the Light Valves would be the logical conclusion. The contrast ratio isn't exactly great at less than 1k to 1. If I did own one, then I would have Scott(tse) help me with it. He was working on next generation LVs when work was halted. Maybe he could help increase the contrast ratio.

Dan,
Darin mentioned to me that the numbers for RPTV DLP returns is probably pretty low due to RBE. Do you have any numbers on this? I would guess there is a difference between noticing RBE and it having an adverse effect on a person. I am curious how many people that have never been on this forum and don't know about RBE have had problems with their FP DLPs. Kind of like Darin pointing out banding on LCDs.:) Also, I didn't notice any RBE on any of the pjs at Infocomm. I wasn't specifically looking for it, but I didn't notice it at the same time.

Ericglo

There are NO 3 chip 1080p .95" units on the market. TI has not even released development kits yet. There are D-Cinema pieces that use the 1.3" DC2K chip, but that's a completely different beast.

It doesn't matter. As already pointed out, some of us are interested about the performance, not technology, price or whatever behind it. The dealbreaker for me is cleary the poor CR of these units. They are not perfect, since there is no perfect projector, so again... pick your poison. With much more CR, I'd probably buy one... I'd have to do more testing to be sure though.



Now granted, I didn't use test signals designed to show it, but we don't watch them in the real world.

I'm not talking about test signals, but regular movies in HD. Unfortunatelly I have yet to see any 1-chip DLP where I can not see any artifacts. Some are better, some are worse. I've seen some where I had to leave the room right away as soon as I entered it and with others I can watch 10 to 15 minutes, but then I suffer eye strain and headaches. That does include the whole VP-12S series. Besides that, I think the S3 was a nice projector, just not for me and many others due to the artifacts.

The important part was to make sure that the video processing was configured properly for it and that it would tie into a screen trigger to move a motorized mount into place. That is in place currently.Thanks Dan. I just want to be clear that I'm reading this correctly. It sounds like the internal scaler already supports the stretching or compressing needed for a constant height setup. Is that right?
I'm very sensitive to this stuff, but even I couldn't see it, my greatest fear would be to have 30 other people sitting in my HT and 5 of them walk out because they can see it.If you invited over people from a support group for headache sufferers or people who have to turn CRT desktop monitors refresh rates way up maybe you would have something like that, but otherwise it isn't all that realistic (as Dan pointed out). There was thread here a couple of years ago with 2x and 3x machines asking how many guests had been shown the projector and how many had complained of color separation artifacts (rainbows). The percentages were very low even with those machines (1 or 2 percent if my memory is right). I've had people notice rainbows with 5x machines, but so far it is only people who knew about them ahead of time. At first when I had a 3x machine I used to ask people if they saw any issues they didn't expect. Out of probably more than 100 there was one guy who said he thought he saw a flash in the lower corner he didn't expect at one point during the movie, but that was it. So, I got tired of asking and stopped.

With 6x machines there will still be some people who see rainbows and people bothered by the colorwheel, but getting 5 out of 30 from a regular group who are bothered would probably be a little bit like picking lottery numbers. But then if you had a group who wanted to be bothered (like some CRT folks who want to dislike the digital) that might be a different matter.

--Darin

"There was thread here a couple of years ago with 2x and 3x machines asking how many guests had been shown the projector and how many had complained of color separation artifacts (rainbows)."

People say this kind of thing a lot. Two things:

1) Most guests won't point out the shortcomings in their host's offering

2) Even if they see it, it might "not compute". For years I had noticed crawling dots on TV's but had no concept of what could cause them and I never asked about them.

I can tell you for certain that we have never had a return or complaint because of it.

If people don't have a standard to compare, how would they ever point out RBE in a projected image?

Case in point, when I first saw a flat panel LCD computer monitor, I thought it was gorgeous and the motion video looked smooth. It wasn't until I compared it to my trusty CRT monitor that I noticed the horrible pixel response time.

I believe many more people would see RBE on a 1-chip DLP projector than anyone thinks. As Noah mentioned, they probably just aren't "aware" of what they're seeing.

People say this kind of thing a lot. Two things:

1) Most guests won't point out the shortcomings in their host's offering

2) Even if they see it, it might "not compute". For years I had noticed crawling dots on TV's but had no concept of what could cause them and I never asked about them.Would you have said anything if the host had asked you if you had seen anything that you didn't expect? As I mentioned, after a while I got tired of asking.
If people don't have a standard to compare, how would they ever point out RBE in a projected image?My first question wasn't whether people had seen rainbows, it was whether they had seen anything they didn't expect. Pretty much everybody who saw the 3x projector I'm referring to had seen TV and had seen projected images, because most people have been to commercial theaters.

If rainbows were as big a deal to the general population as some people want everybody to think then I think there would be a lot more people seeing them who don't know about them and a lot more returned units for that. There are of course people who see them, but I don't see evidence that consumers who buy units without knowing about them are running into issues at the rate some people like to think.

--Darin

kpup:

The color wheels are getting faster; which means the likelihood of seeing RBE is reduced. Not everyone has the attitude of "Oh my god, a rainbow -- this sucks big time!". I happen to fall in the category of not freaking out over them.

I see Darin beat me to the punch while I was selfishly on the phone and not hitting the "Post Reply" button.

I can tell you for certain that we have never had a return or complaint because of it.

Thanks Dan!



If rainbows were as big a deal to the general population as some people want everybody to think then I think there would be a lot more people seeing them who don't know about them and a lot more returned units for that. There are of course people who see them, but I don't see evidence that consumers who buy units without knowing about them are running into issues at the rate some people like to think.

--Darin

If it was a big problem, then there would be only 3 chips sold. In that case, the price of 3 chip would be astronomical from the low production volume. With that scenario, there would be no DLP sponsered NASCAR race car.:)

I still think one needs to differentiate between noticing RBE and RBE having a debilitating effect mentally. The former can be categorized as a minus for DLP along with all the other issues each technology has. This would be no different banding, pixel bleed, etc. So, even if they are aware of RBE it is a negative but not a problem. The latter is a more serious issue that seems to effect but a small portion of the population. Apparently, this has had little impact on DLP success.

Also, I wonder how many people on this forum have been told about RBE and its potential debilitating effects. They then suffer from the headaches and etc, because they knew about them up front. In other words, they psyche themselves out. Kind of like when you squat a couple of hundred pounds and you make the lift harder by thinking you can't do it or not talking to an attractive person because you think that person won't like you, etc.

Ericglo

Also, I wonder how many people on this forum have been told about RBE and its potential debilitating effects. They then suffer from the headaches and etc, because they knew about them up front. In other words, they psyche themselves out.My favorite are the people who jerk their heads left and right, up and down, etc. for 15+ minutes to see if they can detect rainbows and then complain that they got a headache. :)

--Darin

Can anyone explain why we cannot complain about projector pricing? :confused:
I thought this was a members forum, and it's up to the individual member if he feels a projectors is well priced or not.
It would be a boring place if we all agreed!

If people were just moaning about the price increase, then i could see how it wouldn't really be relevant. (and tiring)
But most people who are complaining/commenting about the price increase are saying it maybe is too much in relation to other projectors on the market, or the fact that most other manufacturers are dropping prices.
I do worry that Dan or any other manufacturers/retailers may take it personally.
But i'm sure nobody on here would want that. (I don't)

Plasmas for example, started out as a very expensive luxury item.
Now each new generation improves on the last and lowers in price.
Same with a lot of other projector manufacturers.

Consumers always demand lower prices, and better performance.
And retailers/manufacturers always defend any price rise by stating that quality costs etc.
But at the end of the day, people vote with their wallets.
If Marantz have got this right, they will sell every one. (and i hope they do)
If not, they will lower the price.
I'm one who will not pay the asking price, but there will be a lot who will.

I will wait for a 3 chip 1080 DLP, as i already have a fine 1 chip DLP on the ceiling.
Single chip projectors have their place, and can be very good indeed.
But as SIM has shown with the C3X, having 3 720p chips takes the picture to another level.
Although the SIM has some issues of it's own, just imagine what they and Marantz could do with a 1080p version!

Rainbows and other motion(bit depth) related artifacts are a fact related to the colour wheel.
Some artifacts don't even have to be seen to be sensed.
Flourescent lighting was reduced in the work place (in the UK with our 50hz supply) due to high levels of headache related sickness.
The people effected didn't see the flicker, but it had an effect.

As for the comments about "having a hundred people in a room and see if anybody comments on the rainbow effect", just doesn't cut it with me.
The first time i saw the rainbow effect was with a Davis One DLP.
It was a like a subliminal thing that occurred at the corner of my eye.
I didn't mention anything for fear of looking a fool.
The salesman asked me was i alright, as looked a little freaked out.
I told him i thought i might have a little sun stroke (which i have had before), as i kept seeing little colour flashes in the image.
He and my friend said it must be because they couldn't see anything wrong!

I went back to the demo room a few days later, as i really wanted to get the projector.
He put on "Bugs Life", and all was well until a contrasty but darker scene came on.
Straight away i could see the colour flashes.
I pointed them out again, but this time the salesman said he had seen the odd flash since my last visit. (my friend still couldn't see them)

In the end i bought a Toshiba MT1 LCD.
But i still demoed every DLP that came out, in the hope that the rainbow problem would be cracked.
In the mean time i swapped my MT1 for a Sony VW10HT and then a Barco CRT.
I was a little shocked to find a similar effect to rainbows on the CRT. (but that's another story!)

Finally the demo i had been waiting for happened.
It was the Marantz S3 720 DLP.
I thought the picture was stunning, and i was relieved to only see the odd rainbow flash.
(I believe the S3 runs at 6X CW speed with a 50hz PAL signal)
Although the S3 reduces them a lot, i can still demonstrate certain scenes to anybody and they will see them as well.(starting credits of "Spider Man" etc)
Even my friend mentions that he does see them, now i have pointed them out!
I had avoided mentioning any of this to my wife, as i didn't want to risk future upgrade plans!
However, i decided to ask her a few months a go.
As to not influence her in any way, i just asked was there anything strange with the Start of "Spider Man".
To my amazement (and horror), she mentioned "those strange colour flashes".
I asked her how long had she seen them, and her reply was "since you first got it"!
I asked her why hadn't she said something, and her reply was even worse.
Apparently, she said she just closed her eyes when ever she saw them because she thought they were due to the picture size.

Because they were rare, i didn't see them as a big problem.
But because of the wifes reaction for example, i would prefer if they were not there at all.
And it is not just rainbows that effect picture stability.
My time with the Ruby did show me how relaxing and stable 3 chippers are.
There is nothing i can put my finger on, but you just know etc.

I do intend to go see the S1, and you never know, i may just change my mind.
But unless Marantz has performed a 1 chip miracle, i don't think so.

In the meantime, i will enjoy all the rave reviews :)

As for the comments about "having a hundred people in a room and see if anybody comments on the rainbow effect", just doesn't cut it with me.
The first time i saw the rainbow effect was with a Davis One DLP.
It was a like a subliminal thing that occurred at the corner of my eye.
I didn't mention anything for fear of looking a fool.
The salesman asked me was i alright, as looked a little freaked out.
I told him i thought i might have a little sun stroke (which i have had before), as i kept seeing little colour flashes in the image.In other words, somebody asked, you told them you saw something, but somehow this contradicts my comments about having maybe a hundred people see the projector over a period of time, asking people if they saw anything and getting so many "No"s that I quit asking? Doesn't sound like your story contradicts what I said in any way, shape, or form.

--Darin

darin,
the quote wasn't aimed at you, as i've heard it many times before. (i didn't even realised you even mentioned a hundred people etc!)
The point is that some people will not comment even if they did see something for fear of looking foolish.
I blamed myself rather than the projector etc. (hence the sunstroke comment)
And the fact that the material shown and setup will also have an impact on the chances of the artifact being noticed in the first place etc.

I'm not anti 1 chip, but artifacts are artifacts and i expect better performance and tolerate less the more i spend etc.

Here is a very simple example of how reports of the rainbow effect on a forum such as AVS are an aberration:

http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/06/22/photobucket-vs-flickr-in-alexa-and-technorati/

Related to the above link, among the tech crowd, the most popular photo sharing service is Flickr. If you read the top tech blogs, you'd think Flickr dominated the market. In actuality, they have a 6% share compared to Photobucket's 46% share.

An excert from the article I linked to:
Here’s some imprecise but telling math: high-authority bloggers appear to write about Flickr about 3 times as often as they (we) write about Photobucket. The blogosphere as a whole uses the word Photobucket 3 or more times as often as we use the word Flickr. (TechCrunch has used the word Flickr 11 times more often than the word Photobucket.)
It's the same with RBE, but the difference is ever greater. I'd guess RBE is mentioned on AVS somewhere between 100-1000 times as much as it is in the "real world".

It's the same with RBE, but the difference is ever greater. I'd guess RBE is mentioned on AVS somewhere between 100-1000 times as much as it is in the "real world".

But what do you do if you are effected in the "real world"?
It can be eliminated with three chips, so that is what i will wait for.