I understand that we live in a free enterprise society, and that competition is a virtue for consumers to have the opportunity in finding the right product for the right price. I also understand that over the past fifty years our economy has moved from a closed to an open system that focuses on the consumer moreso than the strict needs of the manufacturer as it did in the past. Sometimes this change in focus may drive the bottom line down, but supply/demand has proven time and time again that a company's survival is based on what the consumer wants.

This leads me to the point of this thread. Over the past thirty years, Sony has attempted time and time again to penetrate the market with a new, often proprietary device, only to end up failing miserably. To back up my claim, I have listed ten formats that have caused quite the controversy and criticism over the years.

1. Beta vs. VHS: The grand daddy of all format wars. This one lasted over 10 years before Sony conceded defeat in 1988 and began manufacturing VHS players. To my knowledge, Sony never attempted to license the technology out to other manufacturers

2. Minidisc vs. casette tape: This time Sony decided to wise up and license the technology out to several other manufacturers in an attempt to take over the audio recording market. The technology met with limited success after its sudden introduction in 1991, and was eventually drowned out by cheaper formats such as CD-R and, later, mp3s.

3. Digital 8 vs. Mini-DV: While boasting identical quality, the Digital 8 format was originally pushed to be a professional grade medium for storing DV footage. Lack of interest and compatibility with professional equipment pushed the format to eventually appeal to only the consumer market.

4. MMCD vs. SD: In the early 1990s, two high density optical storage formats were being developed. Super Density disc (SD) was backed by Toshiba, Time-Warner, Matsushita Electric, Hitachi, Mitsubishi Electric, Pioneer, Thomson, and JVC. MultiMedia Compact Disc (MMCD) was back by Phillips and non other than.....Sony! If it weren't for IBM president Lou Gerstner uniting the two formats and allowing Sony and Phillips to implement some proprietary specs, we would have probably seen a format war that would have surpassed that of Beta and VHS. This format was eventually changed to 'DVD' and led to the formation of the DVD Forum.

5. Memory Stick vs. SanDisk & Lexar: Despite developing the Memory Stick, Memory Stick Pro, Memory Stick Duo, and Memory Stick Micro, Sony once again failed with the formats proprietary nature, as the majority of devices that support it are only from Sony. SanDisck and Lexar, however enjoy significant third party licensees that have led to industry support in both consumer and professional devices.

6. DVD+R vs. DVD-R: Here's an interesting one. After the DVD Forum was created to represent the DVD format and ensure its success, Sony decides to develop DVD+R for the DVD Alliance outside the Forum. Pioneer developed the DVD-R for the DVD Forum. What followed was a massivly confused consumer market over the next several years. Incompatible players, incompatible recorders, and DVDs recorded in the wrong format led to headaches for most buyers. This problem still continues today, although many manufacturers have decided to develop players/recorders that support both formats.

7. MicroMV vs. MiniDV: As if MiniDV wasn't small enough for storage, Sony decides to develop a casette medium 70% smaller that it hoped would appeal to the masses. It didn't. Sony was the only manufacturer to sell camcorders supporting this format, and as of January 2006 it stopped manufacturing any new models.

8. UMD vs. Ipod Video: The biggest problem with Sony's Universal Media Disc, besides its defunct sales, is that the disc is hardly 'Universal'. Developed for use with the PSP, the format has been criticized for its proprietary nature along with the unavialibility of writers and blank media. Because of security reasons and to protect DVD sales, Sony announced no plans for UMD playback on normal televisions. I wouldn't worry about cannabilism because UMDs average around $30 while their DVD counterparts range from about $10 to $25. As for security, the format was cracked soon after it was released. By March 2006 Paramount, Warner, and Sony announced they were cutting back releases while Universal and Image Entertainment ceased development outright.

9. SACD vs. DVD-Audio: This war was doomed from the beginning. Despite being a huge fan of high-res multichannel audio, I (along with most of you) am only one of a small niche of consumers interested in a format better than CD audio. While many format wars had its share of consumer backers to drive revenue, this one never made it to that point. Sony and Phillips backed SACD. The DVD Forum backed DVD-Audio. While the Forum had been established to advance the progression of DVD, Sony must have decided that it would be able to take the market share and break away from the standard. This was not the case; neither format became successful.

10. Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD: So here we are, nine failed formats later. The new format war is at hand that could potentially dethrone the Beta/VHS war. The interesting fact is that this format war, like many others, could have been avoided all together. On November 19, 2003 the DVD Forum declared in an overwhelming majority vote that HD-DVD would be the successor to DVD. All of the home theater enthusiasts across the world had something to look forward to, and the reaction was one of anticipation and excitement. But alas, Newton's Third Law kicked in and showed that every action is followed with an equal and opposite reaction. That opposite reaction was Sony's disapproval of the format and its announcement of the Blu-Ray format it was going to develop outside the consideration of the DVD Forum. The format was boasted superior to HD-DVD in all ways - better picture, better sound, higher storage capacity, more support. Yes, it was going to be twice the price, but you pay for what you get, correct? Now, as we all know, many of these promises have come up short. Granted, the format war is in its infancy, but as history has shown, Sony could potentially shoot themselves in the foot once again and produce another failure, costing millions of dollars and leaving another bad taste in the mouths of consumers across the globe.

I cannot mention the failures of Sony without mentioning its successes. Granted, the company has created several products that spawned worldwide attention, including the Playstations, the new SXRD televisions, and the ever popular 'Ruby'. I just wish the company would find some kind of middle ground that wasn't constantly pleasing, pissing off, pleasing, and then pissing off customers again. The purpose of this thread is for each of you to share your thoughts on what you think of Sony in general, and how you think the company's past will influence its push for Blu-Ray to become the successor to DVD. You may agree with what I say, or you may disagree with me and attempt to tear this post apart, which is fine with me. Either way, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

As regards to #1 - I had a Toshiba Beta machine in 1984.

If history is any indication, it will repeat itself once again.

This is your first post ever? Gentlemen I do apologize for being cynical, however I am very suspicious of this post being an instance of 'viral marketing'.

Interesting thread - I had forgotten some of those formats already! Here's my take. I agree that the BD vs. HD-DVD bears much similarity to many of the previous wars, but I think that Sony has learned a bit from the past. They succeeded in securing CE and studio support - which would be critical for the format to live.

However, so far they haven't succeeded in execution. Granted, it is early, but if the Sony player had been first and good, and the first titles would have had DL to pick from, I think folks would have been far more satisfied with the results.

I think Sony and the BD Forum in general had/has a good gameplan - I think they just have failed on execution to this point.

My biggest fear is that both formats will die.

Over the past thirty years, Sony has attempted time and time again to penetrate the market with a new, often proprietary device, only to end up failing miserably.
Just as well that's not what's happening this time then isn't it. With Matsushita, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, Hitachi, et al in addition to Sony, only the most myopic of Sony haters could claim this was a proprietary Sony format.

As regards to #1 - I had a Toshiba Beta machine in 1984.
Further to that I believe that Toshiba's first video players were in fact Betamax. It wasn't until later that they started producing VHS decks.

The HD-A1 would look right at home among these players! (http://www.palsite.com/gtoshibavideos.html)

I also had a Sanyo Beta machine as well as Sony. So #1 is not true.

Guys, thanks for the correction on #1. I wasn't sure, so that's why I said "to my knowledge."
This is your first post ever? Gentlemen I do apologize for being cynical, however I am very suspicious of this post being an instance of 'viral marketing'.
The post was not intended to be viral marketing. I just want to see what people have to say about Blu-Ray based off of Sony's past products. As far as this being my first post, I understand that many of you will judge me and assume I have no right to say some of the things I have. Just remember that you were probably judged the same way when you made your first post.
Just as well that's not what's happening this time then isn't it. With Matsushita, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, Hitachi, et al in addition to Sony, only the most myopic of Sony haters could claim this was a proprietary Sony format.

I am not a myopic Sony hater. In fact, I think that some of their products, especially their SXRD models, are some of the best looking TV's available for under $5000. The post was not a means of bashing Sony, but rather a look at the format wars its participated in over the years and how that will affect Blu-Ray.

I realized I didn't word the last sentence in #1 correctly. Sony did license the technology out to other manufacturers, but it was JVC that decided to use open sharing of its VHS technology, a decision that hurt profit for the company but ultimately tipped the format war in favor of VHS. By 1984, forty companies backed VHS compared to only 12 for Beta.

Looks like its already starting: PC World, in their "100 Best Products of the Year"

just rated Sony as "Worst Company of the Year" and rated HD-A1 the #14 best product of the year!

It is being discussed in this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...117#post7957117

The actual article can be found here: http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/arti...,125706,00.asp#




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2. Minidisc vs. casette tape: This time Sony decided to wise up and license the technology out to several other manufacturers in an attempt to take over the audio recording market. The technology met with limited success after its sudden introduction in 1991, and was eventually drowned out by cheaper formats such as CD-R and, later, mp3s.

Hmmm... wrong anology. It was MD VS DCC or Digital Compact Cassette. And both companies (Sony and Philips) licensed their technology out. It failed simply because people were pleased with their tapes. The new formats had copyright protection that was draconian (for those days). And people were too scared to spend $$$ only to end up with an expensive paperweight. The DCC went the way of the dodo and the MD, well, Sony and (was it Sharp?) hung on with it, but it never succeeded in replacing the CD or the CC.

What about the CD (Compact Disc)? I think Sony did ok on that one

Hmmm... wrong anology. It was MD VS DCC or Digital Compact Cassette. And both companies (Sony and Philips) licensed their technology out. It failed simply because people were pleased with their tapes. The new formats had copyright protection that was draconian (for those days). And people were too scared to spend $$$ only to end up with an expensive paperweight. The DCC went the way of the dodo and the MD, well, Sony and (was it Sharp?) hung on with it, but it never succeeded in replacing the CD or the CC.

I'd thought about using DCC instead of casette tapes, but since the two shared the same form factor and that DCC's were backwards compatible with analog casette tapes, I decided not to go that route.

I like products from many manufaturers including Sony. There are also products that I dislike from many manufacturers.

I love Sony TVs. It's my opinion that they make some of the best sets in the world.

When the cd player was in vogue, they made some superb ES machines that are still highly sought after today.

Their high end DVD players are very nice machines.

I shy away from their receivers (buy Denon), but I'm sure their ES receivers are also very nice.

I own a PSP which is a little marvel of engineering.

I think Sony is a good company that is always on the cutting edge, however they make folks angry because they are always trying to one up their competition by producing proprietary products to not only make a profit for the company, but a name for themselves also. Kind of like Apple Computer.

In the business world you are always looking for that "edge".

I can complain about individual products that have failed me in the past from various companies, but I really can't hate any of these companies.....I'm glad they are all there to give us more choice.

I only wish that both camps had produced a unified product such as the CD or the DVD......there would be less stress!

What about the CD (Compact Disc)? I think Sony did ok on that one

Sony released one of the first CD players, but didn't invent the technology. Philips could technically be considered the father of CD technology, not Sony. They started experiments with audio-only optical discs during the 1970s. Sony and several other companies ended up working on the format together. Even Philips themselves claim there is no 'father of the CD'.

I had a MiniDisc player, I dug the technology but I could NEVER again add or subtract music because Sony made you use their software, Once I redid my harddrive and lost the software I had a paperweight... Screw Blu-ray I hope it dies fast... Painlessly mind you I am not cynical or anything but I was in college and that MiniDisc player was a lot of money, GONE!

I agree with posters who've mentioned that cassette, DCC, MD and CD-R all sort of collided with CD-R (and later MP3 players) eventually coming through on top.

I own a lot of these somewhat proprietary formats. I have a Phillips DCC900 player, and I've got a Sony TRV820 Digital8 player. I also had until recently a Hi8 deck... another format that wasn't mentioned here. And let's not forget SVHS!

I figure that the stars only line up as they did for CD and DVD once every decade or two, and the HD discs just don't provide a huge leap up from CD/DVD that CD/DVD did from cassette/vhs that would force all companies to band together or get left off the bandwagon. If the replacement for DVD were a holographic storage medium inside a 30mmx30mmx3mm plastic shell that held 100GB, then we'd probably have one format because it'd be clear as day that such a device would be a quantum leap beyond DVD. As it is, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray... well, heck, the discs themselves look exactly the same as DVD. It's an evolutionary upgrade, and everyone has their own spin on how to do an evolutionary upgrade.

Sony could learn a lot from modern IBM on how to corral R&D resources and leverage them to a competitive advantage. Sony reminds me a lot of IBM in its Micro-channel days and they don't seem to have learned whereas IBM did.

I am not a myopic Sony hater. In fact, I think that some of their products, especially their SXRD models, are some of the best looking TV's available for under $5000. The post was not a means of bashing Sony, but rather a look at the format wars its participated in over the years and how that will affect Blu-Ray.
There are some pretty obvious omissions from your list if you really did want to look at the format wars Sony has been involved in over the years. Playstation for one.

You might want to also take a second look at your title: "Sony's reputation, and 10 reasons why they could fail". Why Sony could fail at what? Unless you're misatributing the BD format only to Sony then your sentence makes no sense. I'm assuming you'll also be providing similar breakdowns of the performance of Panasonic, Philips, Toshiba, Pioneer, Microsoft, etc, in other threads?

I don't see how Memorystick was a failure (its still sold daily) as is Digital 8, yes they probably don't share the success of SD or DV, but it works and its supported.

UMD, well i for one like the option of buying a movie for the little marvel which is PSP. Although i currently only have 5 flicks for my psp, let me have to take a flight im sure i'd snatch up 3 or 4 more.

I'd hardly call these "failures" especially when they have no sign of dissapearing any time soon.

I tend to avoid "Sony only" proprietary products.
I do think sonys products are of a high quality standard, but with a higher price tag to go with it.
At the end of the day i ended doing what Joe 6 pack would do, and go for the best bang for the buck.

Hmmm... wrong anology. It was MD VS DCC or Digital Compact Cassette. And both companies (Sony and Philips) licensed their technology out. It failed simply because people were pleased with their tapes. The new formats had copyright protection that was draconian (for those days). And people were too scared to spend $$$ only to end up with an expensive paperweight. The DCC went the way of the dodo and the MD, well, Sony and (was it Sharp?) hung on with it, but it never succeeded in replacing the CD or the CC.

IIRC it was DAT vs. DCC. DAT wasn't a mass market success but it was far from a failure.

I don't see how Memorystick was a failure (its still sold daily) as is Digital 8, yes they probably don't share the success of SD or DV, but it works and its supported.

UMD, well i for one like the option of buying a movie for the little marvel which is PSP. Although i currently only have 5 flicks for my psp, let me have to take a flight im sure i'd snatch up 3 or 4 more.

I'd hardly call these "failures" especially when they have no sign of dissapearing any time soon.

Try shopping for a memory stick. Sure , you can buy them, but you're going to pay top dollar.
Back in the day, I paid premium for Sony TV's, Camcorders, digital cameras, receivers, etc... But in time, the CCD's on the cameras failed, the tv became obsolete (not Sony's fault, I admit) and the memory sticks I needed became a rip off compared to similar SD cards.
I'm not on the HD-DVD bandwagon yet, but I know for sure I'll pass on the BD player. I think it won'd be long before movie titles are available in both formats. And when it does happen, I'll grab a HD-DVD player then.

IIRC it was DAT vs. DCC. DAT wasn't a mass market success but it was far from a failure.

No, it wasn't DAT VS DCC. Check this out: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.02/streetcred.html?pg=20

It was DCC VS MiniDisc. DCC came out at the time of MiniDisc and both used compression (PASC on DAT and ATRAC on MD) whereas DAT did not. DAT came out earlier and sort of survived in semi-professional and professional audio circles but it was a failure as a consumer format because of the copy protection built into it.

UMD, well i for one like the option of buying a movie for the little marvel which is PSP. Although i currently only have 5 flicks for my psp, let me have to take a flight im sure i'd snatch up 3 or 4 more.

I'd hardly call these "failures" especially when they have no sign of dissapearing any time soon.
I'm glad you had a good experience with your little marvel PSP but my experience was nothing even close to marvelous. I hated that Sony released more UMD movies then games for the PSP. I bought mine to be a portable game system not a portable movie player. Not-to-mention the fact that UMD movies cost $5-$15 more then there DVD counterpart and for that reason I never bought one. If I wanted a portable movie player I would have spent far less money on a portable DVD player and would be able to use my current DVD collection (not having to re-buy movies in the expensive UMD format). I would consider UMD a failed format because most studios are cutting back or going to stop releasing movies on the format. I see signs of movies disappearing on UMDs real soon.

My disappointment with the PSP reach a boiling point a few weeks ago and I traded it in for a DS Lite (a much better portable gaming system with plenty of fun games out IMO).

I don't see how Memorystick was a failure (its still sold daily) as is Digital 8, yes they probably don't share the success of SD or DV, but it works and its supported.

UMD, well i for one like the option of buying a movie for the little marvel which is PSP. Although i currently only have 5 flicks for my psp, let me have to take a flight im sure i'd snatch up 3 or 4 more.

I'd hardly call these "failures" especially when they have no sign of dissapearing any time soon.

I believe Digital8 has been put out to pasture by the only company that made D8 products... yes, Sony.

They are useful for converting those Sony Hi8 tapes to DV-AVI however. I'm real surprised that Digital8 used a semi-standard format for delivering digital AV.

Just out of curiousity (b/c I was too young to really care) who was involved in the DCC (digital compact cassette) vs. DAT (digital audio tape) war about the same time as MiniDisc came out? I remember that I really like the DCC b/c the player played cassettes also. But being in junior high of course, I couldn't convince my parents to buy me a $900 player for no reason except it was cool. I never saw the DAT players, but I remember them being big in the radio industry for data storage and song archives, etc. I was just curious. Thanks in advance. If it matters I think the DCC player was a Pioneer (or one of its of shoots at Radio Shack)

1. Beta vs. VHS: The grand daddy of all format wars. This one lasted over 10 years before Sony conceded defeat in 1988 and began manufacturing VHS players. To my knowledge, Sony never attempted to license the technology out to other manufacturers


Sony tried very aggressively to license it to other companies. They had Sanyo, Toshiba, Zenith and NEC at one point. JVC ended up winning for a number of reasons (mainly the longer recording time in my opinion).

The early Betas recorded and played only in what was later called BI. This only gave one hour per tape. They quickly added BII and BIII which extended this to 2 and 3 hours, but these tapes wouldn't play on the older VCRs. The BII/BIII VCRs couldn't even record in BI. Most of the new VCRs couldn't play the old BI tapes either. This basically turned all the first generation Beta VCRs into junk over night since they were completely incompatible with all other Beta VCRs and pre-recorded tapes. This eliminated all their advantage from being on the market before VHS. I'm sure they lost a lot of customers who were not happy to see their several thousand $ (in 2006$) VCR become almost useless after only a couple of years.

No, it wasn't DAT VS DCC. Check this out: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.02/streetcred.html?pg=20

It was DCC VS MiniDisc. DCC came out at the time of MiniDisc and both used compression (PASC on DAT and ATRAC on MD) whereas DAT did not. DAT came out earlier and sort of survived in semi-professional and professional audio circles but it was a failure as a consumer format because of the copy protection built into it.

I stand corrected... :)

I just remember seeing DAT vs. DCC shootouts in AUDIO magazine, etc.

Either way, I'd like to hear your thoughts.Your post has a number of factual errors. The idea itself is flawed because the number of failed proprietary formats does not predict how Blu-ray will fare, in light of the number of successful proprietary formats Sony has introduced. Having said that, I don't think either number matters too much at this point. There are a number of other, much more important issues at hand.

3. Digital 8 vs. Mini-DV: While boasting identical quality, the Digital 8 format was originally pushed to be a professional grade medium for storing DV footage. Lack of interest and compatibility with professional equipment pushed the format to eventually appeal to only the consumer market.

Uh, Digital 8 was never pushed as a professional grade medium for storing DV footage. Digital 8 was Sony's way of extending life to their 8mm video products, and introducing consumers to higher quality digital video. I've never seen a high end or prosumer version of Digital 8, and never recall seeing it marketed as such.

Plus it was backwards compatible in most cases with consumers who already had 8mm products.

Lastly, I seem to recall Sony was part of the miniDV consortium as well, far from a failure (much like you attribute Blu-Ray will go).




8. UMD vs. Ipod Video:

UMDs don't average $30, they average $20-$25, just like their DVD new release counterparts. Many can be found new at $19MSRP.

Ipod video didn't kill UMD sales. It didn't even have an effect on it. Cost of UMDs killed UMDs. Why spend $60 for 2-3 UMDs when you can buy a 1GB memory stick and rip 2-4 movies to the stick, erase it and put 2-4 new movie content on the stick? UMDs would be a raging success (I think) if they were $5-$7, whether sold separately or as a premium to a DVD pack in. But $15-$25 for a low res movie? Hell no...


I cannot mention the failures of Sony without mentioning its successes. Granted, the company has created several products that spawned worldwide attention, including the Playstations, the new SXRD televisions, and the ever popular 'Ruby'.

It's done more than create a few product success stories.... Walkman? Trinitron? that damn robot Aibo, Vaio PC/laptops, the professional market like Betacam SP/MX/Digital, DVCAM, and a whole lot more.

Every consumer electronics company has had successes. But you can view them as failures too. Just because a product isn't adopted by every consumer electronics company doesn't mean the product, technology, or company for that matter is a failure. If that's the case, there's plenty of them including Toshiba, Panasonic, NEC, Sanyo, the list goes on...

Finally, I could care less if a product is a success or failure - if it serves my purpose as a consumer, it's a success in my book.

I for one hope that Sony continues being imaginative, arrogant and bullheaded in their product development. In my opinion, they did some of their best work when Akio Morita was in charge...perhaps some future visionary will come along who can drive the company to the heights of excellence again. Too many CE manufacturers these days are content with just copying what the market leader is doing instead of developing new, innovative, advanced technologies. It is unfortunate that the two camps couldn't come to some sort of compromise...the resulting product might've been phenomenal.

Ken, I think Sony's history most certainly has an impact on how well Blu-ray will fare. Sony IS the backbone of Blu-Ray. Believe it if you want to, but Sony's reputation for proprietory formats DEFINITELY influences certain people's decisions and you can put me into that category. I want choice and based on my experiences, Sony products pigeonhole you into buying their unique formats.... and at a premium.
Sony could win me back if they produced a player that played both formats.... but somehow, I really doubt that will happen anytime soon.

Try shopping for a memory stick. Sure , you can buy them, but you're going to pay top dollar.


you mean like this?

In this case the sony card is cheaper by more than half:
Sandisk 512mb Secure Digital $44.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5886366&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1060002782027)
San Disk Memory stick 512mb $19.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5928623&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1060605892903)


Hey look these are the same price:
Sandisk 1gb SD $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6730264&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1083716072950)
Sony 1gb pro duo $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7130963&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1110263398002)

wheres the premium?

there sure is alot of monkey poo (anti sony sentiment) flung around this board. I'm all for opinion and putting IMO after a statement. But don't try and pass your opinion off as fact.

Thanks,

It's done more than create a few product success stories.... Walkman? Trinitron? that damn robot Aibo, Vaio PC/laptops, the professional market like Betacam SP/MX/Digital, DVCAM, and a whole lot more

lets not forget, first to market with a consumer, (not professional or prosumer) HD-Camcorder (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=HDRHC3&Dept=cameras&CategoryName=dcc_DICamcorders_HighDefinitionVideo) <--I own this and it rocks!

turansformer, there is one MAJOR blunder from SONY you did not mention, the ELCASET (1976).:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcaset

;)

turansformer, there is one MAJOR blunder from SONY you did not mention, the ELCASET (1976).:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcaset

;)
Oh no. I bought one of those things. Man do I feel old and.... :)

Wow, I had no idea Sony has created so many formats! They must have hundreds of engineers doing nothing but thinking up new ways to record stuff. I get the feeling that as long as Sony is around, we will always have 2 versions of every format.

So many people keep comparing the current format war to Beta vs VHS.

Now if I remember correctly, Beta came out first, yes? Beta also had a better PQ, yes?

Currently, HD-DVD came out first, yes? HD-DVD has better PQ right now yes?

So if we follow the dumb analogy that history will repeat itself, then won't Blu-Ray ultimately win the format war? STOP comparing HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray to Beta vs VHS. Its not the same thing

And lastly, if I remember correctly, Sony actually ended up making a good sum of money on Beta because studios and production facilities wanted better PQ. Sony bailed out of the consumer market and probably ended up making more money with Beta rather than compete with a million other companies trying to sell you the same format.

Anywayz, off to bed.

Wow, I had no idea Sony has created so many formats! They must have hundreds of engineers doing nothing but thinking up new ways to record stuff. I get the feeling that as long as Sony is around, we will always have 2 versions of every format.

Perhaps only in the US and Canada. Sony markets worldwide....US sales account for just a portion global revenues. In fact, long after Beta went pro only in the US, not only did broadcasters continue using it, but so did many other countries around the world. The only problem I have with Sony is that you no longer are guaranteed to get what you pay for. When all of their manufacturing was done in Japan, it was rare (for me, anyway) to ever have to use the warranty on a product.

Jeff Minter: Sony 'Arrogant' Concerning The PS3 (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9997)

In reports originally printed by UK game magazine Edge and relayed by BBC News, seminal British programmer and game designer Jeff Minter (Tempest 2000) has voiced his opinion of Sony's PlayStation 3 console following its E3 launch, going so far as to call the company "incredibly arrogant".

Minter's thoughts on the PlayStation 3, which were published in his regular column in the UK video game magazine Edge, included his feeling that Sony seems “absolutely certain that even when they say it's going to be considerably more expensive than existing consoles... nevertheless us eager customers will rush out in droves to buy it because it's, hey, a new PlayStation.”

Veteran coder Minter is the founder of development house Llamasoft, which has produced cult titles such as Attack of the Mutant Camels for the Commodore 64 and Atari 8-bit computers, as well as Gridrunner and Sheep in Space. Minter also produced the 1994 remake of Dave Theurer's 1981 classic Tempest for the Atari Jaguar with Tempest 2000.

His most recent work includes an unfortunately cancelled GameCube title in conjunction with Lionhead Studios named Unity, the sound-to-light synthesizer called Neon which is built in to all Xbox 360 consoles, and Minter is currently listed as an Xbox Live Arcade developer, though he has not explicitly revealed what title he is working on for the system.

Interestingly, Minter is not alone in questioning the price, as a recent survey of Japanese developers by Japanese magazine Ge-Maga found that an overwhelming 90.29 percent of those participants feel that PlayStation 3 is priced too high.

thats a great review of what you wrote man....

Wow, I had no idea Sony has created so many formats! They must have hundreds of engineers doing nothing but thinking up new ways to record stuff. I get the feeling that as long as Sony is around, we will always have 2 versions of every format.

They must feel that for every proprietary win that must be worth a bunch of proprietary losses. I give it to them, they do try new things and they try the same things but executed differently. That isn't all bad all of the time.

Also to OP, I enjoyed the refresher course.

Jeff Minter: Sony 'Arrogant' Concerning The PS3 (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9997)
hey if in that column it said the 90% of the japanese folks think the PS3 its too expensive then for sure its too expensive since PS in general has a foot hold in the japanese market and hardly no american format survives their, but now if the japan folks think its too expensive well then sony might be in trouble.

So many people keep comparing the current format war to Beta vs VHS.

Now if I remember correctly, Beta came out first, yes? Beta also had a better PQ, yes?

Currently, HD-DVD came out first, yes? HD-DVD has better PQ right now yes?

So if we follow the dumb analogy that history will repeat itself, then won't Blu-Ray ultimately win the format war? STOP comparing HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray to Beta vs VHS. Its not the same thing


I think when people use the comparison (I do feel it fair to an extent if one of these become dominant) they don't mean every step along the way is an exact mimic of the other war. The finer details will vary but the general scope of the situation is very similar. This is a big war and now the internet is here ready to call it blow by blow, something that is different when the Beta vs VHS thing went down.

Who pioneered those Movie Albums in a plastic sleeve (during beta/vhs and right before LD). CED's I believe? Just wondering... RCA?

Who pioneered those Movie Albums in a plastic sleeve (during beta/vhs and right before LD). CED's I believe? Just wondering... RCA?

Yes, that was RCA Selectavision. They stopped making them about 1986 and started using the Selectavision name for their VHS VCRs. I met a guy a few years back who still had the player and dozens of movies. They still worked!

BTW, Laserdisc actually has been around since the late '70s, when it was called "Discovision"! :D

you mean like this?

In this case the sony card is cheaper by more than half:
Sandisk 512mb Secure Digital $44.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5886366&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1060002782027)
San Disk Memory stick 512mb $19.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5928623&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1060605892903)


Hey look these are the same price:
Sandisk 1gb SD $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6730264&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1083716072950)
Sony 1gb pro duo $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7130963&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1110263398002)

wheres the premium?

there sure is alot of monkey poo (anti sony sentiment) flung around this board. I'm all for opinion and putting IMO after a statement. But don't try and pass your opinion off as fact.

Thanks,
your also not point out fact brian your comparing the new SD technology to sonys old MS technology of course one technology is gonna be more expensive than the older one....try looking up the new MS pro duo thats the same comparison as the SD card. that MS you just showed is huge man thats old stuff the pro duos are in the same leaguq as the SD card you just showed. Overall if you compare apples to apples both are almost the same price sony might be more expensive by only 5 bucks. My costco has the pro duo and the newer SD technology both at 1gigs both made my Scandisk and both are 54.99....only becuase there is no sony there only Scandisck stuff....here you go brian here are the facts:
sonys MS pro duo (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7130963&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1110263398002)

SD card (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6730264&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1083716072950)

you mean like this?

In this case the sony card is cheaper by more than half:
Sandisk 512mb Secure Digital $44.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5886366&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1060002782027)
San Disk Memory stick 512mb $19.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5928623&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1060605892903)


Hey look these are the same price:
Sandisk 1gb SD $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6730264&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1083716072950)
Sony 1gb pro duo $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7130963&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1110263398002)

wheres the premium?

there sure is alot of monkey poo (anti sony sentiment) flung around this board. I'm all for opinion and putting IMO after a statement. But don't try and pass your opinion off as fact.

Thanks,

For starters that's one store not the entire market. The first two are hardly comparable since Sandisk is charging extra for the "digital secure" feature. What is the cost of their most basic 512mb since that is the most basic memory stick pro you chose to compare it to. The pro duo would have been a closer match and it costs around $60 (69 in your example). That doesn't even take into account the "Ultra" line SKUs. That's a premium. I also find it comical that in order to prove Sony doesn't charge a premium for their product you sighted two Sandisk products that aren't even equivalent. Apples to Oranges. Check features and price when drawing these comparisons.

So many people keep comparing the current format war to Beta vs VHS.

Now if I remember correctly, Beta came out first, yes? Beta also had a better PQ, yes?

Currently, HD-DVD came out first, yes? HD-DVD has better PQ right now yes?

So if we follow the dumb analogy that history will repeat itself, then won't Blu-Ray ultimately win the format war? STOP comparing HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray to Beta vs VHS. Its not the same thing

And lastly, if I remember correctly, Sony actually ended up making a good sum of money on Beta because studios and production facilities wanted better PQ. Sony bailed out of the consumer market and probably ended up making more money with Beta rather than compete with a million other companies trying to sell you the same format.

Anywayz, off to bed.
if you can come out with a better PQ than current HD-DVD then im fine I dont care if you call it, "blu ray dvd quosmos super high defintion cd" name what you will and what you want, but as long as my eyes can see superb PQ im in.

Yes, that was RCA Selectavision. They stopped making them about 1986 and started using the Selectavision name for their VHS VCRs. I met a guy a few years back who still had the player and dozens of movies. They still worked!

BTW, Laserdisc actually has been around since the late '70s, when it was called "Discovision"! :D

I have a unit and disks out in my dad's barn in Ohio for about 15 years now. Has to be ruined by now. Hmm... I remember renting those at a Goodrich/RCA store for years, took a stab at RCA.

Wow, I created this post just yesterday afternoon, and I'm already learning about formats I wasn't even aware of. Thanks for the corrections, complaints, compliments, and feedback in general.

I hate to be stubborn, but history NEVER repeats itself. I don't think Betamax and VHS are going to go to war again :) Sorry, had to be cleared up. I hate all those people that say history repeats itself when it would never be possible at all (without a time machine and a lot of meddling that is)

anyway, I thought I'd ask again since nobody answered. Who was behind DCC and who was behind DAT? They were actually at war to see who would replace cassette tapes (MD would not be a tape medium if memory serves). MD did come out at the same time, but just another format trying to come out (and probably trying to replace CD b/c smaller) not at war with DCC and DAT.

I hate to be stubborn, but history NEVER repeats itself. I don't think Betamax and VHS are going to go to war again :) Sorry, had to be cleared up. I hate all those people that say history repeats itself when it would never be possible at all (without a time machine and a lot of meddling that is)

Ummm, hate to burst your bubble, but everybody here already knows that. :P The history that repeats itself is Sony's inability to win a 'format war'.

Even Philips themselves claim there is no 'father of the CD'.

So CD does not count in your view because it was not Sony only, it was Sony/Philips. So why should BD count when BD is not a Sony only format. The format was started by 9companies that banded together to make the BDA

So why should BD count when BD is not a Sony only format. The format was started by 9companies that banded together to make the BDA
The physical format for BD was designed by three companies: Sony, Matsushita and Philips with the two former having a much larger role. The rest of the companies joined the bandwagon after the fact. Indeed, these companies are consider the "core BDA" members.

could have sworn it was 9, but not importnat the point still remains that this whole thread is someone trying to make the facts fit a conclusion that is useless. He does not allow CD and any other techs that Sony was one of the prime creators because It was not Sony alne and then states that it is proof of BD that is not a Sony only tech.

Agreed that Sony did succeed nicely with the CD in their collaboration with Philips. And it is also true that BD is not closed technology of one company.

On the other side of the coin, .1mm recording was a research project at Sony. Their researchers came to Matsushita, asking if they would want to go to market with it and they said yes and here we are. They have let other companies join them and share the specifications with them. And let them add things to it.

I think that after the first Blu-Ray launch fiasco it might be time for Sony and Toshiba to get together and try to work things out. 50% is better than nothing at all and both sides have too much to loose. Toshiba has proven that their players work and Sony has proved to us so far that there are problems producing dual layer disks. Who knows what meetings are taking place behind the scenes but one can be sure that that Sony has been watching the Samsung launch and cannot be happy with the results. Toshiba has its own problems in getting the studios onboard. This just might be the time to reach an agreement for one format.

You think HD-DVD will talk one format now? That's ridiculus! They have 2nd gen players coming out in Europe (and the US) in the late fall/early winter (check the HD-DVD forum) All bugs fixed, both HD audio codecs at full 7.1, 1080p over HDMI, and oh yeah, they have gotten the 45g discs to actually work (as opposed to vaporware dual-layer BD). A truly refined product over the 1st gens, which by the way already shames what BD has shown thus far. BD is truly 6 months behind every step of the way. Why would HD-DVD concede now that it has a 75% chance of winning at this point? Let the holiday shoppers decide whether to spend $500 or AT LEAST $1000. It seems every new BR player announced costs more (maybe b/c they will actually play CDs too, ohh, ahh). They STILL use Mpeg2, no hi-rez audio codecs, etc. The same problems are still there for BD and Tosh is fixing all of their nuisances. Add to that, the studios aren't stupid. They know they can sell more movies purely b/c more people will buy a $500 player over a $1000 player (especially since the BD player is getting more bad press than anything I can think of recently). So more movies now AND in the future than BD....so yeah, lets call a truce (b/c SONY know its losing!)

Some people need to realize that when it comes to the format war it is not between Samsung and Toshiba or BluRay players and HD DVD players, it is Playstation 3 vs XBOX 360. Both will sell enough that neither format is going anywhere, deal with it.

I don´t believe that the Playstation 3 will win the war for Sony.
One thing about it is comforting though: Even if Blu-Ray should fail, say, three years from now, you´ll still be able to by Blu-Ray Players and PS3s for a LONG time. And if Sony sticks to it´s backwards compatibility policy, the PS4 will probably also play Blu-Rays.

My greatest fear is to build a library of titles, which I won´t be able to buy a replacement player for in 20 years. That I´m stuck with discs, I won´t have the technology to watch any more. I´m planning far ahead on this :) .
Can you buy betamax players today? :confused:

But is that actually a danger with any one of the two formats?
Probably hybrid players will solve this. I´m being too negative. :o

Maybe in 5 years, nobody will care because the two formats cost and look the same. You´ll have a hybrid player and buy the movie you want not the format. And this format war will be forgotten.

Matsushita, asking if they would want to go to market with it and they said yes and here we are. They have let other companies join them and share the specifications with them. And let them add things to it.

But Sony was not the only one experimenting with .1, I thought even Toshiba did so

but 360 is not HD DVD

Although HD-DVD may not win the war, it certainly appears they won't lose it. Currently, the main reason for buying a BD player is the titles. Presently, that's more than enough reason for both formats to exist.
But as many have posted, there are many dollars to be made by the entertainment industry. And if it costs less to produce and play (players) HD-DVD movies, and therefore more profitable, it would be a very bad business move to stick with one format. This is why I believe studios will eventually produce movies on both formats.

However on the professional video side Sony has ruled the market where Panasonic & JVC failed.

BETACAM vs M1: Sony took the market.

BETACAM-SP vs M2: Once again Betacam ruled. Only NBC used M2 so it died.

BETA_SX vs JVC Digital S: BETA_SX was very popular in news. JVC Digital S had one customer - Fox netowrk, then it had none!

Sony & Ampex D2 vs Panasonic D3. D2 was the industry format for composite digital. D3 although a better format received little attention. USA Network was the only significant customer of D3.

Sony D1 vs Panasonic D5 (sd version): D1 was the component mastering format of the studios for 10 years. D5 was superior but never used that much.

Sony Digital Betacam vs Ampex DCT: DCT was very rare only adopted in number by three Hollywood facilities as an internal format. Digital Betacam remains an industry workhorse since 1994.

Sony HDCAM vs Panasonic HDD5: Here finally Panasonic made some headway. HDCAM is the format of choice for broadcast TV but HDD5 was / is the HD mastering format of choice. This time the quality advantages of the Panasonic format were enough to push Sony aside on the high end.

HDCAM-SR vs? Once again in 2003 Sony has taken the title of the highest quality HD recorder. Panasonic still holds onto HDD5. But as the studio libraries are HDD5, will HDCAM-SR take it's place?

BTW - who was the El-cassette? Sony or Panasonic? Remember that 1/4 inch tape oversized cassette that ran at 3&3/4 ips? No, I'm not talking about 8-track, that was yet another consumer audio format which was far too popular. :(

if sony ships PS3 on time, before xmas 2006, BD will take off like a rocket...

if they screw it up, sir howard stringer is going to be in the hot seat... IMO, consumerwise, PS3 is it...

microsoft keeps waiting and waiting with their HD DVD for the xbox 360... will they ship by xmas?

if sony ships PS3 on time, before xmas 2006, BD will take off like a rocket...

if they screw it up, sir howard stringer is going to be in the hot seat... IMO, consumerwise, PS3 is it...

microsoft keeps waiting and waiting with their HD DVD for the xbox 360... will they ship by xmas?
heh hate to ruin your party, but BD has already taken off like a rocket... ;)

Ummm, I think most of the people that are BD supporters would have to agree that BD has NOT taken off like a rocket, more like the rocket the North Korea launched last week...a 6 second flight and then malfunction.

I think people expect WAY too much out of PS3. It costs too much, a minimal percentage will care that its a BD player in the grand scheme of things, and if they buy the cheaper version, there is NO REASON to buy BD...get the same performance out of a cheaper DVD. Remember its a GAMING CONSOLE...that what 95% of people will use it for.

360 HD-DVD drives will offset people using PS3 for BD...basically 0 effect on the format war. You just need to deal with that. SONY can't rely on PS3 to win it for them...maybe keep them afloat (and that's a long shot judging from first looks its getting in gaming mags). Even ones dedicated to PS are lackluster due to price! That's not good!

Main reason Sony can fail is simply because they are arrogant/cocky, greedy and somehow think they own the industry. Sony acts like everyone is an idiot and that everyone will buy what they try and shove down peoples' throats.

History has shown throughout the world that arrogance/cockiness and greed eventually ends in failure and this could be Sony's big failure that may actually humble them. Who knows though. Time will tell.

For starters that's one store not the entire market. The first two are hardly comparable since Sandisk is charging extra for the "digital secure" feature.
The memory sticks have the lock out feature too. so whats your point here?

The pro duo would have been a closer match and it costs around $60 (69 in your example).

they are the same price as shown in the ^above replies.



That doesn't even take into account the "Ultra" line SKUs. That's a premium. I also find it comical that in order to prove Sony doesn't charge a premium for their product you sighted two Sandisk products that aren't even equivalent. Apples to Oranges. Check features and price when drawing these comparisons.

ok, well most would conscider SanDisk at the top of the totem pole in memory, but if you want to look up toshiba SD or Panasonic branded SD i'm sure you won't like those prices as they are more than San Disk or Sony branded cards..
Also, Ultra2 cards would be compared with "Highspeed" duo cards in which you would then have to either compare Sandisks prices of both to make it fair...or try and find some OEM that makes Higspeed SD.

Point was made...there is NOT a signifigant "premium" anymore between memory types. that was a for several months, a few months back...but now it's a level playing field. I swear some people come on here to argue for the sake of argument and they have no proof to back their point of view...interesting.

11. The Incessant Chatter of the FanBoys of BLU-RAY For the past year or more, BluRay Fanboys never did shut up. With the release of blu-ray products that aren't vaporware, the fanboys, who raised the hype meter, were instantly shut up looking for excuses to the poor picture quality of BluRay movies. What followed was another Sony format that went down the drain.

Some people need to realize that when it comes to the format war it is not between Samsung and Toshiba or BluRay players and HD DVD players, it is Playstation 3 vs XBOX 360. Both will sell enough that neither format is going anywhere, deal with it.

Hmmm, I don't see that at all. XBox 360 does not have a built in HDDVD player.

So I don't see any comparison what so ever.

My greatest fear is to build a library of titles, which I won´t be able to buy a replacement player for in 20 years.


Another reason to vote for on-demand, digital content.

Thank you very much.

Another reason to vote for on-demand, digital content.

Thank you very much.Which is why Microsoft started HD-DVD. To create the format war and attempt to torpedo the industry-agreed upon Blu-Ray format. By killing the customer-owned physical HD media industry, Microsoft can then promote their licenced download service w/ their proprietary VC-1 codec. The beauty of this is they can stall/kill MPEG-4 and double-dip on their licensing fees.

Again, it's Microsoft's right to attempt this business strategy, but I can't help but get a chuckle when people express a hatred for the format war yet have a thing against Blu-Ray.

- Hadji

"There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone."
-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Toshiba's HD DVD is out of the gate, early, and despite its clunky-ness and minor short comings, is a hit. That's because it hits a price point, delivers the goods picture-wise, and compliments the HDTV's so many people now own (timing).

Blu-Ray needed to get something, anything out there and they did. The Samsug player and titles that were rushed to market. Few people seem pleased with the hardware or software in terms of quality or price.

Sony, Panasonic, and the others are holding out with their machines while the Samsung product provides excellent feedback on what works and doesn't.

I predict, this fall, when the other players are released, they will be vastly improved. One should expect dramatic performance improvements in user interface, load times, killer titles that ~are~ done right and perhaps extra features HD DVD can't touch. Let's hope the HD DVD camp isn't kicking back too much.

All remains to be seen. The stakes are high. High Definition DVD is the next big thing and will be as huge as the original DVD, CD, Walkman or iPOD. A vast fortune is out there to be made. Neither side is down for the count.....yet. It will be an interesting war and we'll see it all on television.

MS did not start HD-DVD.

The Back HD-DVD, only to give Sony a hard time.

Industry agreed upon BluRay? Never heard that one before.

Which is why Microsoft started HD-DVD. To create the format war and attempt to torpedo the industry-agreed upon Blu-Ray format. By killing the customer-owned physical HD media industry, Microsoft can then promote their licenced download service w/ their proprietary VC-1 codec. The beauty of this is they can stall/kill MPEG-4 and double-dip on their licensing fees.

Again, it's Microsoft's right to attempt this business strategy, but I can't help but get a chuckle when people express a hatred for the format war yet have a thing against Blu-Ray.

- Hadji

"There's an old story about the person who wished his computer were as easy to use as his telephone. That wish has come true, since I no longer know how to use my telephone."
-- Bjarne Stroustrup

How is this any different than Sony pushing to use Mpeg2 for all Blu Ray content so they get royalties off every single BR disc produced?

And while MS' intentions are to benefit themselves as is with all corporations, there is an obvious advantage to the consumer. The VC1 codec is clearly superior. Since it's submitted to Mpeg-la, they cannot modify it at will, and most importantly, HD DVD is forcing BR to remain honest and deliver on promises.

If HD DVD didn't exist or had folded, you'd see 25GB SL disc using Mpeg2 being pushed off as "Beyond High Definition" and we wouldn't know any better. Thankfully, we do and we demand that promises be full filled before we hand over our cash.

I don't care which company gets my money but I do care what it is that I'm getting for my money.

How is this any different than Sony pushing to use Mpeg2 for all Blu Ray content so they get royalties off every single BR disc produced?Obviously it's not, just providing some balance to the "Sony is evil for wanted royalties on MPEG2", yet Microsoft gets a pass for collecting royalties on every HD-DVD disc sold.

And while MS' intentions are to benefit themselves as is with all corporations, there is an obvious advantage to the consumer. The VC1 codec is clearly superior. Since it's submitted to Mpeg-la, they cannot modify it at will, and most importantly, HD DVD is forcing BR to remain honest and deliver on promises.Also no disagreement here - in fact I'd go so far to say that VC-1 has added the much-needed push for the completion and adoption of MPEG4.

If HD DVD didn't exist or had folded, you'd see 25GB SL disc using Mpeg2 being pushed off as "Beyond High Definition" and we wouldn't know any better.Aren't we getting that now anyway? :) I'd argue that consumer push for refinements would occur without a format war just as it did for DVD. I'm still amazed how much of the general public complains about bad transfers and problem encoding for releases in that format, and the resultant improvements over the years for DVD is one that is going to repeated for either HD format.

I don't care which company gets my money but I do care what it is that I'm getting for my money.I think most sensible people would agree, but I also don't want to be lamenting in a year or two "what might have been" when a format that's technically better on paper died because of short-term losses (or let's face it, politics) to a competing format. DVD and DBS especially might not have survived such a scenario considering their newness and the capital investments required.

- Hadji

"We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization."
- Petronius Arbiter, 210 BC

Obviously it's not, just providing some balance to the "Sony is evil for wanted royalties on MPEG2", yet Microsoft gets a pass for collecting royalties on every HD-DVD disc sold.

... - Hadji

[....[/SIZE]

The difference is that M$ hires people like Amir and Stacey Spears to make sure HD-DVD is all it can be and a good deal for us consumers.

I'm willing to trade my $$$ for what I want, and M$ is delivering the goods. Sony is not.

Ken

The difference is that M$ hires people like Amir and Stacey Spears to make sure HD-DVD is all it can be and a good deal for us consumers.


Ken

Yeah, and they use Sony equipment to make sure HD DVD is all it can be, go figure... :)

BTW - who was the El-cassette? Sony or Panasonic? Remember that 1/4 inch tape oversized cassette that ran at 3&3/4 ips? No, I'm not talking about 8-track, that was yet another consumer audio format which was far too popular. :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcaset

My friend has one of these manufactured by TEAC. It still works flawlessly and has always sounded very impressive but of course it never saw a lot of use.

Yeah, and they use Sony equipment to make sure HD DVD is all it can be, go figure... :)

And why not? As Glimmie points out Sony rules in the Pro world. If only they could figure out us lowly non-pro consumers want good stuff too.

Ken

And why not? As Glimmie points out Sony rules in the Pro world. If only they could figure out us lowly non-pro consumers want good stuff too.

Ken

I don't consider the XBR960, Q005, or the Ruby Pro equipment. I do however, consider their MPEG-2 encoder Pro quality, but it appears that it isn't holding up to the level that their other industrial stuff does, like I said, go figure...

If HD DVD didn't exist or had folded, you'd see 25GB SL disc using Mpeg2 being pushed off as "Beyond High Definition" and we wouldn't know any better. Thankfully, we do and we demand that promises be full filled before we hand over our cash.



I really don't agree that nobody would have noticed BR's poor quality without HD DVD. Certainly anyone with D-Theater surely would have noticed and anyone with a good cable HD feed would also have noticed since it appears the BR titles don't even match up to good cable HD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcaset

My friend has one of these manufactured by TEAC. It still works flawlessly and has always sounded very impressive but of course it never saw a lot of use.

I think I'm going to get one of those next time a unit shows up on Ebay. Just a neat thing to have in a collection. People don't beleive it until they see it.

Which is why Microsoft started HD-DVD. To create the format war and attempt to torpedo the industry-agreed upon Blu-Ray format.

Get your facts right. HD-DVD was agreed upon by the DVD Forum as the official successor to DVD. It was Sony who decided that this wasn't good enough and had do its own thing.

Get your facts right. HD-DVD was agreed upon by the DVD Forum as the official successor to DVD. It was Sony who decided that this wasn't good enough and had do its own thing.

EXACTLY!

As regards to #1 - I had a Toshiba Beta machine in 1984.

I still have a Sanyo Beta player, with the Los Angeles olympics sticker still on it.

I don't consider the XBR960, Q005, or the Ruby Pro equipment. I do however, consider their MPEG-2 encoder Pro quality, but it appears that it isn't holding up to the level that their other industrial stuff does, like I said, go figure...

The bottom line is that Blu-ray is not getting the type of attention it needs to be an excellent choice for its intended audience. Many years have passed and it is still not ready.

Maybe we could understand this situation better if we knew what division or group is responsible for Blu-Ray's implementation?

Seems like its a joint effort of the PR and Accounting Groups.

Ken

What will get me and others to jump in sooner rather than later is a dual player, and knowledge that the cost of making such a player is so little extra versus a single format player, that we can be sure dual players will become the norm. The dual pickup announced from Ricoh gives hope to that happening quickly. If I know both formats will be supported by players well into the future, I'll be in as soon as dual players cost around $500.

Angry sony fanboy rant.

http://angrysonyfanboy.ytmnd.com/

Angry sony fanboy rant.

http://angrysonyfanboy.ytmnd.com/

ok that was beautiful :)

I think this is a very well written and informative thread by namechamps. It sheads light on why and where this format war developed and where it is headed:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...434#post7991434


Was the DVD-Forum right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way back in 2003 the 60 member DVD Forum created a HD-DVD steering commitee. Sony and all 10 backers of the BlueRay platform were a part of this program. As were Toshiba and NEC who worked together on AOC (advanced optical disk). The commitee's purpose was to determine the merits, costs, and complications of both technologies to determine the best format to replace DVD and thus inherit the name HD-DVD. Contrary to popular opinion Toshiba did not invent HD-DVD. Toshiba/NEC created AOC and it was chosen by the DVD-Forum (of which SOny was a member) to use the name HD-DVD.

Even in 2003 the 2 format had a lot in common:
Both used 405 nanometer blue-violet lasers to increase capacity.
Both used a 12cm disk to maintain same form factor.
Both used conventional rotational optical technology.
Both used dual layers to increase capacity.

The also had some major differences.
The BD had higher capacity.
The BD had higher transfer rate.
The BD was designed to work with current mpeg2 encoding.
The BD used a newer 0.1mm top layer
The BD used an optical lense with a higher numerical apeture (0.85)

The AOC had lower capacity
the AOC had lower transfer rate.
The AOC promoted the use of newer codec to make up for lower capacity.
The AOC used a 0.6mm top layer to make it compatible with current DVD production lines.
The AOC used an optical lense with same numerical apeture as DVD (0.60)

Even in the begining there was no question that the BD format was superior. It had higher capacity, and higher transfer rate. Also BD recorders were already in production for Japan. However the AOC camp stated that those advances came as a high cost. The question was not which format was better in terms of specs but which made better sense (economically, time to market, and produce a high quality imagine) to replace HD-DVD.

Pickup Assembly:
Part of the higher capacity with BD is that it uses a new apeture for it's pickup assembly. This results in a tighter beam and allows data to be packed closer together boosting both capacity & transfer rates. DVD pickup assemblies had fallen to commodity prices. The AOC pickup was exactly the same as DVD except it used a 405nm diode instead of a red diode. This would allow cheap pickups that contain 3 diodes (infared, red, and blue violet). There was some concern the BD would require a glass lense rather than the current plastic lense used in DVD players.

Top Layer:
The data layer in a DVD and AOC is 0.6mm thick. This would allow AOC to be produced using existing DVD production lines. NEC demonstrated that existing DVD lines could be upgraded cheap;y (about $150K-$250K per line). BlueRay required new production lines due to it's thinner top layer (0.1) at a projected cost of around $1million - $2million per line. Considering there are about 500 DVD production lines in the world that would be a industry wide cost of up to a $1Billion. The thinner top layer was required to use the higher apeture. Without the higher apeture / thinner top layer BD would have the same capacity as AOC.

Codec:
Sony argued that the mpeg2 codec was mature and switching codec would not be required. Since HD-DVD would have about 5-6 times the pixels as a DVD it would require an increase in capacity to about 50-55GB. The BD provided such capacity and would allow movies to be encoded with current software. AOC with it's lower capacity would not be able to use mpeg2 and maintain a high PQ, however Toshiba argued that newer codec like H.264 were about 2X as efficent and combining a higher capacity disk with H.264 would allow for a high resolution image.


Summary:
Toshiba's concept was that the next format should be6 evolutionary. AOC essentially is a DVD with higher data density from changing to a smaller wavelength laser. That aproach worked with the change from CD to DVD which went from infared to red laser resulting in a density increase of about 6x (DVD ended up needing more capacity and hence the dual layer DVD9).

Sony's concept was to make a clean break. They argued that the DVD format had reached the limit of technical advancement. BD allowed a substantial increase in capacity. Sony agreed that it would have an initial higher cost but DVD had a high transistion cost from VHS.

The DVD Forum aproved the AOC format to be the replacement for DVD, and inherit the name HD-DVD. The major factors in that decision were:
* AOC could use existing DVD lines and DVD forum believed that would result in more capacity, lower cost, and faster transistion.
* AOC was a simpler technology and could reach market sooner (AOC claimed late 2004, BD claimed mid 2005 - oops to both sides).
* AOC had lower capacity but 30GB seemed sufficent to hold a 2.5 hour movie (which is about 85% of all content).

BR was determined to be higher tech but too disruptive and costly to produce. There was some question if BR would be ready for mass production by end of 2005. So the "lower tech version" won out. There never was really any chance of a compramise. A BR disk with same apeture/top layer as AOC would have the same capacity. So it really came down to size vs cost.

I remember seeing the headlines on a tech website in late 2003 and was stunned. I thought it was the worst decision ever. AOC was a cheap upgrade from DVD and would require more compression (H.264). BD was the vastly superior format on paper. I was actually glad when the BlueRay Group decided to break off and create a competing standard. Then both formats disapeared for about 2 years. Prior to the release of HD I was still a suporter of BD. I figured when HD-DVD came to market with an improved picture but BD came out with an amazing out of the world experience HD-DVD would die a quick death.

HD-DVD came out and the picture was stunning. In the last 2 years advanced codecs became much better and even the BlueRay format was upgraded to include support for them even though Sony stupidly refuses to admit they are better. I began to see that maybe the DVD Forum was right. I mean HD-DVD sold for as little as $19.95 on Amazon, and with similar production it shouldn't be long before they are at price parity with DVDs. Still I believed the PQ would be better on BD and that would kill HD-DVD. Then the delays came. Not one or two but a new delay announced about every week. Players, titles, and PS3 were all delayed more than once. The last straw was the horrible PQ on the BR disks. The best disks had similar reviews to the average HD-DVD disks. The best HD-DVD have not been matched by BR.

So 3 years later
* The "high tecn" BR format is more expensive.
* Sony is having yield issues with BD production.
* Sony is using mpeg2 despite the obvious issues it has.
* HD-DVD has less capacity but as predicted by Toshiba higher efficency codecs have made that a non issue.
* HD-DVD was first to market and should be able to grow disc production faster and cheaper than BR.


Now some people still say dual layer will bring 50GB however I dont think that will be enough.
I did the math and considering Dobly TrueHD & VC1 use about half the bits for similar quality over mpeg2 & uncompressed PCM it would take a 60GB disk to equal the quality of HD-DVD. Even then is equal quality worth it? The BR group worked with the DVD forum until they lost and then decided to release a competing product (just like Sony did with DVD+R and SACD). This did nothing but add confusion to the marketplace and hasn't resulted in any value to consumers.

BD50 disk will come out soon but HD-DVD disks will get cheaper to produce over time also and 30GB has been shown to be very good when combined with DD+, TrueHD, and VC-1. If the best BD can produce is similar quality at higher prices (both in players & disks) is it really worth it?

HD-DVD will be my only choice (however I will wait for generation 2 players, I doubt Sony will ever allow combo drives. Now Sony may end up winning this war as they have the best marketing department in world, they also have studio support, and the ability to produce a large # of products (both stand alone & PS3). If Sony wins I think we will be stuck with a higher priced product that at best is similar in quality to HD-DVD.

So do you think the DVD-Forum was right?

^^^ Best summary of the battle I have seen so far

Sony is pushing potential future needs.
Sony is pushing currently unneeded capacity.
Sony wants royalties from MPEG2 and Blu-Ray patents.
Sony wants PS3 penetration into the home for future revenues.

Can't blame them for that, the issue is why pay more for BR when HD DVD delivers what is needed right now for less cost.

My observation is that Joe six-pack is not willing to pay more for merely a better picture. DVD enticed with a whole lot more than a better picture. It was revolutionary. Is Joe ready for another revolution. I don't think so.

That being the case the strategy to entice Joe would be to make an evolutionary move. Joe is more willing to buy that initial player (and pay that small cost increase) if the media for it is about the same price he is now paying and if the initial cost is not too far out. Also, throw in that he can still play his revolutionary DVDs on it too and he/she is more likely to take the plunge. HD-DVD has taken that path, whereas Blu-ray is calling for another revolution. I just think it is too early to have another revolution.

Sorry, but I believe that HD-DVD will be the populist choice and ultimately mine too.

:) Guys check out this thread by Michael Mullis, it states that

"British gaming legend accuses Sony of arrogance." :rolleyes:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=698437

It reads:

Well, more people are weighing in on the PS3. This time it's Jeff Minter, who some of you older gamer might remember from Commodore 64 and Atari computer days, and the guy behind Tempest 2000 for the Atari Jaguar (still one of my favorite arcade-style games).

"We need games, not smugness" - Minter
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18199

British games industry veteran Jeff Minter has accused Sony of adopting an "incredibly arrogant" attitude with regard to the PlayStation 3's high price point, warning: "Nobody likes smug."

Writing in the new issue of Edge magazine, Minter said that Sony seems "absolutely certain that even when they say that it's going to be considerably more expensive than existing consoles, and that maybe there won't be that many titles actually available at launch, nonetheless us eager customers will rush out in droves to buy it because, hey, it's a new PlayStation."

But this approach is misguided, according to Minter: "Just making the shiniest, most expensive harware doesn't cut it these days."

"Sure the PSP was beautiful, shining, pretty and posh, whereas the DS was definitely the ugly sister. But hey, the ugly sister is better in the sack."
The answer to Sony's problems, Minter believes, lies in the software that will be available for the PS3. "We need games, not smugness, games that will make me want to get hold of the PS3 rather than a bunch of stuff either identical or broadly similar to what I'll be playing on my 360," he wrote.

"I want sweet Feisar temptation, not a bit of snotty attitude."

Minter concluded by warning Sony: "Yeah, you've got the lion's share of the current market, but don't get smug... Nobody likes smug, and it's not an attitude that has served companies well in the videogames industry."

Minter has developed games for more than two decades, and his most famous titles include Llamatron and Gridrunner. He established his own company, Llamasoft, in 1982.



Whether you think the price of the system is justified or not, I think we all can agree Sony needs to get some PR in check soon. Having Midway back you up is a big plus. But more bad news is coming out than good. It needs to get under control and soon.

Get your facts right. HD-DVD was agreed upon by the DVD Forum as the official successor to DVD. It was Sony who decided that this wasn't good enough and had do its own thing.


The BDA (then called Blu Ray Founders) was formed before the DVD forum decided on HD DVD. They did not go to submit the new disk format to the DVD forum because according to the DVD forums charter it is about DVD and blu laser disks are something new.

:) Guys check out this thread by Michael Mullis, it states that

"British gaming legend accuses Sony of arrogance." :rolleyes:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=698437

It reads:

Well, more people are weighing in on the PS3. This time it's Jeff Minter, who some of you older gamer might remember from Commodore 64 and Atari computer days, and the guy behind Tempest 2000 for the Atari Jaguar (still one of my favorite arcade-style games).

"We need games, not smugness" - Minter
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=18199

British games industry veteran Jeff Minter has accused Sony of adopting an "incredibly arrogant" attitude with regard to the PlayStation 3's high price point, warning: "Nobody likes smug."

Writing in the new issue of Edge magazine, Minter said that Sony seems "absolutely certain that even when they say that it's going to be considerably more expensive than existing consoles, and that maybe there won't be that many titles actually available at launch, nonetheless us eager customers will rush out in droves to buy it because, hey, it's a new PlayStation."

But this approach is misguided, according to Minter: "Just making the shiniest, most expensive harware doesn't cut it these days."

"Sure the PSP was beautiful, shining, pretty and posh, whereas the DS was definitely the ugly sister. But hey, the ugly sister is better in the sack."
The answer to Sony's problems, Minter believes, lies in the software that will be available for the PS3. "We need games, not smugness, games that will make me want to get hold of the PS3 rather than a bunch of stuff either identical or broadly similar to what I'll be playing on my 360," he wrote.

"I want sweet Feisar temptation, not a bit of snotty attitude."

Minter concluded by warning Sony: "Yeah, you've got the lion's share of the current market, but don't get smug... Nobody likes smug, and it's not an attitude that has served companies well in the videogames industry."

Minter has developed games for more than two decades, and his most famous titles include Llamatron and Gridrunner. He established his own company, Llamasoft, in 1982.



Whether you think the price of the system is justified or not, I think we all can agree Sony needs to get some PR in check soon. Having Midway back you up is a big plus. But more bad news is coming out than good. It needs to get under control and soon.

Nintendo got smug in the mid 90's and look what happened. They thought the brand alone would keep carrying them. They havent recovered since then, but it appears the Wii is going to be a hit. The PS3 is priced to expensive for the average consumer.

They did not go to submit the new disk format to the DVD forum because according to the DVD forums charter it is about DVD and blu laser disks are something new.

That makes no sense ... given HD DVD was approved by DVD forum. And before that DVD-Audio was approved by it.

The BDA (then called Blu Ray Founders) was formed before the DVD forum decided on HD DVD. They did not go to submit the new disk format to the DVD forum because according to the DVD forums charter it is about DVD and blu laser disks are something new.

C'mon, you don't really believe that, do you? I think the BDA didn't feel that they had the votes to win; and I'm not sure that they thought that they needed the DVD Forum, anyway. IMO, they thought that their product/strategy was so much better that they didn't need them; and I assume by following the "go it alone" path that the member companies could make more money (no patent or royalty sharing with other DVD Forum companies for the use of the DVD name, for example).

It seemed very political to me, with BDA companies blocking the approval of AOD to allow BDA to be un-opposed by a DVD-named successor; then other non-BDA members arranged to re-adjust the steering commitee; got MS and Disney (I think) onboard, to get the votes they needed to get AOD approved (once they had added the blue laser).

The original plans by both camps were not very good, IMO: BD guys wanted only MPEG2 approved, with no alternative, but promises of 50g discs; while AOD guys wanted advanced codecs with red laser. Both camps got better due to the "pre-war".

But to believe that BD wasn't submitted because it "wasn't DVD" seems a bit far-fetched.

DVD Forum was right. Hindsight is 20/20.

The topic creator of this forum failed miserably. I suggest he goes back to school and lay off the long island ice teas.

The topic creator of this forum failed miserably. I suggest he goes back to school and lay off the long island ice teas.

After reading through all the replies, I'd like to remind you...

1. Yes, there were mistakes in my post. But, there is also quite a bit of factual information.

2. The majority of replies to this topic generally share the same views as myself.

3. Most attacks toward my topic have been blatant without anything to back them up. There are exceptions, such as the one from Glimmie stating the success Sony has had in the pro industry. I have the upmost respect for that kind of reply, and absolutely no respect for yours.

4. My whole point of the article was that history repeats itself, and that Sony has showed from many other failed formats in the past that it could possibly happen again.

5. Finally, how can I fail when I simply ask for the opinions of everyone on this forum? I guess I could follow the current trend and say something to the effect of "Blu-Ray sucks! HD-DVD rules!" and not give any explanation behind my opinion, but I prefer to let people know why I think the way I do.

6. I graduated college.

7. I prefer Vodka Tonics

p.s. If you had read the forum rules, you should know that if you're going to 'attack' a post, attack the information, not the poster. I gladly welcome you to give a thorough and educational reply as to why I failed miserably.

7. I prefer Vodka Tonics




mmmmmm vodka tonics :)

Who was behind DCC and who was behind DAT?
EDIT: I love talking about old formats (current own many of them) and memory could be fuzzy, and might have some things wrong but...

DAT was much older. Sony and Philips. I know I saw some DAT prototypes in about 1984 or so, but came to market many years later. RIAA had lots of problems with initial format and wanted all the copy protection on it. MD was all sony, since the failure of DAT for consumers, Sony wanted a better system. MD had many companies backing it. Sharp, Pioneer, Kenwood, Sanyo, Victor JVC, Fisher, Denon, Casio, Goodmans, Onkyo, Yamaha, TEAC, TASCAM. They added the same copy protection that was on DAT because they were in awe of the RIAA:)jk. Royal Philips went in their own way with DCC splitting with Sony on MD. Partnering with Panasonic. Marantz, LG (GoldStar) and Tandy Radio Shack made decks. I think it Marantz who went with DCC because it was a better sounding compression wise compared to the initial ATRAC.

I think the main failure with MD is the US market where CD are generally cheap and MD was initially marketed as a CD replacement. Japan have more expensive CD's 3,000yen (at least $10 more than US CDs) average. So many Japanese people rented CD and copied to MD.

I'm glad you had a good experience with your little marvel PSP but my experience was nothing even close to marvelous. I hated that Sony released more UMD movies then games for the PSP. I bought mine to be a portable game system not a portable movie player. Not-to-mention the fact that UMD movies cost $5-$15 more then there DVD counterpart and for that reason I never bought one. If I wanted a portable movie player I would have spent far less money on a portable DVD player and would be able to use my current DVD collection (not having to re-buy movies in the expensive UMD format). I would consider UMD a failed format because most studios are cutting back or going to stop releasing movies on the format. I see signs of movies disappearing on UMDs real soon.

My disappointment with the PSP reach a boiling point a few weeks ago and I traded it in for a DS Lite (a much better portable gaming system with plenty of fun games out IMO).

The problem with the BD player is the same as the UMD on a PSP, first sony invented the UMD disk so it would have a viable media for a small form factor portable game player (which is great in my opinion). However sony execs try to take it to the next step in greed, and make it more than what it really is, a new DVD player, but becomes so greedy in their quest thinking they know what the consumer need's and tries to sell UMD movies at a premium, instead of at a cut rate. Come on I would buy UMD's if they were a quarter of the price of a DVD, not more expensive. Sony is stupid in this regards they need to keep an eye on thier target market and not get caught up in we know what is best for the consumer so we will charge more for a product that has less value. Sony does try to have excelent technoligy, however it isn't becuse it benifits the consumer it is becuse it benifits sony. Untill they learn how to leverage their technoligy to benifit the consumer they will always lose the format wars, and produce red herrings that nobody wants. Yes thier formats look great on paper but in reality they are crap that nobody wants. I don't want a format war, they are holding me up on purchasing a HD player which they could have re sold me content I have already purchased from them. Instead they want to control the specifications for the next generation of HD players so they can charge a premium. This is not in my best intrest, and I will boycot sony BD disks till the day I die. How is this good for sony? How is this good for the next gen market. As always this will be a debacle for sony, and it's investors, I figured these japenze fools would learn by now.

BETACAM vs M1:
BETACAM-SP vs M2:

It's M not M1! It's MII not M2!:D
They should have called it M-atic, maybe the U-matic guys would have come along!jk

a previous M user!

After reading through all the replies, I'd like to remind you...

1. Yes, there were mistakes in my post. But, there is also quite a bit of factual information.

2. The majority of replies to this topic generally share the same views as myself.

3. Most attacks toward my topic have been blatant without anything to back them up. There are exceptions, such as the one from Glimmie stating the success Sony has had in the pro industry. I have the upmost respect for that kind of reply, and absolutely no respect for yours.

4. My whole point of the article was that history repeats itself, and that Sony has showed from many other failed formats in the past that it could possibly happen again.

5. Finally, how can I fail when I simply ask for the opinions of everyone on this forum? I guess I could follow the current trend and say something to the effect of "Blu-Ray sucks! HD-DVD rules!" and not give any explanation behind my opinion, but I prefer to let people know why I think the way I do.

6. I graduated college.

7. I prefer Vodka Tonics

p.s. If you had read the forum rules, you should know that if you're going to 'attack' a post, attack the information, not the poster. I gladly welcome you to give a thorough and educational reply as to why I failed miserably.

Your in the right sir this is a very valid question/point that has repeated itself many times over. However sony thought this time would be different becuse it owned enough content to force BlueRay down Joe sixpacks throught oh how wrong they are becuse Joe Sixpack doesn't by the premium beer he buys the cheap beer, however in this case (no pun intended) his cheap beer tastes better than the premium swill sony is serving. ( I don't hate sony I just hate them sometimes when they impead progress).

The topic creator of this forum failed miserably. I suggest he goes back to school and lay off the long island ice teas.

I suggest you learn to contruct a logical argument in support of your case rather than type a line to prove your general coolness :rolleyes:

I think this is a very well written and informative thread by namechamps. It sheads light on why and where this format war developed and where it is headed:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...434#post7991434


Was the DVD-Forum right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Way back in 2003 the 60 member DVD Forum created a HD-DVD steering commitee. Sony and all 10 backers of the BlueRay platform were a part of this program. As were Toshiba and NEC who worked together on AOC (advanced optical disk). The commitee's purpose was to determine the merits, costs, and complications of both technologies to determine the best format to replace DVD and thus inherit the name HD-DVD. Contrary to popular opinion Toshiba did not invent HD-DVD. Toshiba/NEC created AOC and it was chosen by the DVD-Forum (of which SOny was a member) to use the name HD-DVD.

Even in 2003 the 2 format had a lot in common:
Both used 405 nanometer blue-violet lasers to increase capacity.
Both used a 12cm disk to maintain same form factor.
Both used conventional rotational optical technology.
Both used dual layers to increase capacity.

The also had some major differences.
The BD had higher capacity.
The BD had higher transfer rate.
The BD was designed to work with current mpeg2 encoding.
The BD used a newer 0.1mm top layer
The BD used an optical lense with a higher numerical apeture (0.85)

The AOC had lower capacity
the AOC had lower transfer rate.
The AOC promoted the use of newer codec to make up for lower capacity.
The AOC used a 0.6mm top layer to make it compatible with current DVD production lines.
The AOC used an optical lense with same numerical apeture as DVD (0.60)

Even in the begining there was no question that the BD format was superior. It had higher capacity, and higher transfer rate. Also BD recorders were already in production for Japan. However the AOC camp stated that those advances came as a high cost. The question was not which format was better in terms of specs but which made better sense (economically, time to market, and produce a high quality imagine) to replace HD-DVD.

Pickup Assembly:
Part of the higher capacity with BD is that it uses a new apeture for it's pickup assembly. This results in a tighter beam and allows data to be packed closer together boosting both capacity & transfer rates. DVD pickup assemblies had fallen to commodity prices. The AOC pickup was exactly the same as DVD except it used a 405nm diode instead of a red diode. This would allow cheap pickups that contain 3 diodes (infared, red, and blue violet). There was some concern the BD would require a glass lense rather than the current plastic lense used in DVD players.

Top Layer:
The data layer in a DVD and AOC is 0.6mm thick. This would allow AOC to be produced using existing DVD production lines. NEC demonstrated that existing DVD lines could be upgraded cheap;y (about $150K-$250K per line). BlueRay required new production lines due to it's thinner top layer (0.1) at a projected cost of around $1million - $2million per line. Considering there are about 500 DVD production lines in the world that would be a industry wide cost of up to a $1Billion. The thinner top layer was required to use the higher apeture. Without the higher apeture / thinner top layer BD would have the same capacity as AOC.

Codec:
Sony argued that the mpeg2 codec was mature and switching codec would not be required. Since HD-DVD would have about 5-6 times the pixels as a DVD it would require an increase in capacity to about 50-55GB. The BD provided such capacity and would allow movies to be encoded with current software. AOC with it's lower capacity would not be able to use mpeg2 and maintain a high PQ, however Toshiba argued that newer codec like H.264 were about 2X as efficent and combining a higher capacity disk with H.264 would allow for a high resolution image.


Summary:
Toshiba's concept was that the next format should be6 evolutionary. AOC essentially is a DVD with higher data density from changing to a smaller wavelength laser. That aproach worked with the change from CD to DVD which went from infared to red laser resulting in a density increase of about 6x (DVD ended up needing more capacity and hence the dual layer DVD9).

Sony's concept was to make a clean break. They argued that the DVD format had reached the limit of technical advancement. BD allowed a substantial increase in capacity. Sony agreed that it would have an initial higher cost but DVD had a high transistion cost from VHS.

The DVD Forum aproved the AOC format to be the replacement for DVD, and inherit the name HD-DVD. The major factors in that decision were:
* AOC could use existing DVD lines and DVD forum believed that would result in more capacity, lower cost, and faster transistion.
* AOC was a simpler technology and could reach market sooner (AOC claimed late 2004, BD claimed mid 2005 - oops to both sides).
* AOC had lower capacity but 30GB seemed sufficent to hold a 2.5 hour movie (which is about 85% of all content).

BR was determined to be higher tech but too disruptive and costly to produce. There was some question if BR would be ready for mass production by end of 2005. So the "lower tech version" won out. There never was really any chance of a compramise. A BR disk with same apeture/top layer as AOC would have the same capacity. So it really came down to size vs cost.

I remember seeing the headlines on a tech website in late 2003 and was stunned. I thought it was the worst decision ever. AOC was a cheap upgrade from DVD and would require more compression (H.264). BD was the vastly superior format on paper. I was actually glad when the BlueRay Group decided to break off and create a competing standard. Then both formats disapeared for about 2 years. Prior to the release of HD I was still a suporter of BD. I figured when HD-DVD came to market with an improved picture but BD came out with an amazing out of the world experience HD-DVD would die a quick death.

HD-DVD came out and the picture was stunning. In the last 2 years advanced codecs became much better and even the BlueRay format was upgraded to include support for them even though Sony stupidly refuses to admit they are better. I began to see that maybe the DVD Forum was right. I mean HD-DVD sold for as little as $19.95 on Amazon, and with similar production it shouldn't be long before they are at price parity with DVDs. Still I believed the PQ would be better on BD and that would kill HD-DVD. Then the delays came. Not one or two but a new delay announced about every week. Players, titles, and PS3 were all delayed more than once. The last straw was the horrible PQ on the BR disks. The best disks had similar reviews to the average HD-DVD disks. The best HD-DVD have not been matched by BR.

So 3 years later
* The "high tecn" BR format is more expensive.
* Sony is having yield issues with BD production.
* Sony is using mpeg2 despite the obvious issues it has.
* HD-DVD has less capacity but as predicted by Toshiba higher efficency codecs have made that a non issue.
* HD-DVD was first to market and should be able to grow disc production faster and cheaper than BR.


Now some people still say dual layer will bring 50GB however I dont think that will be enough.
I did the math and considering Dobly TrueHD & VC1 use about half the bits for similar quality over mpeg2 & uncompressed PCM it would take a 60GB disk to equal the quality of HD-DVD. Even then is equal quality worth it? The BR group worked with the DVD forum until they lost and then decided to release a competing product (just like Sony did with DVD+R and SACD). This did nothing but add confusion to the marketplace and hasn't resulted in any value to consumers.

BD50 disk will come out soon but HD-DVD disks will get cheaper to produce over time also and 30GB has been shown to be very good when combined with DD+, TrueHD, and VC-1. If the best BD can produce is similar quality at higher prices (both in players & disks) is it really worth it?

HD-DVD will be my only choice (however I will wait for generation 2 players, I doubt Sony will ever allow combo drives. Now Sony may end up winning this war as they have the best marketing department in world, they also have studio support, and the ability to produce a large # of products (both stand alone & PS3). If Sony wins I think we will be stuck with a higher priced product that at best is similar in quality to HD-DVD.

So do you think the DVD-Forum was right?

I AGREE 100% However it is cheaper to replace software than hardware. Hence the revolution the computer has had over the whole entire world. Instead of retooling everything just upgrade the software and whala, we have better capacity. Is blue ray more advanced (Yes it is) However is blue ray more econmicaly efficent no it is not. I would rather spend 100,000 dollars any day then 1,000,000 to upgrade my factory. Sony is stupid for this one mistake, they should have known better however sony at heart is a hardware company, that promotes ass backwards ideas of hardware solutions, instead of software solutions.

Oh another Sony war I forgot about...

Video8(8mm, hi-8) vrs VHS-C (S-VHS-C)

Sony

:) Hey guys check out this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...61&page=1&pp=30

PROJECTOR CENTRAL IS PREDICTING THE EARLY DEMISE OF BLU-RAY!

THis is the article: http://www.projectorcentral.com/blu-ray_2.htm

It looks like Target will stop selling UMD movies. Rumor has it that BB and Wal-Mart are next.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/07/12/target-discontinues-umd-movies/

Also, Sony will start selling movies on Memory Stick.

http://www.realtechnews.com/posts/3266

:) Guys take a look at this thread about Joe Kane of JKP giving his opinion about Sony as a company and Blu-ray:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=699338

:D Here's a direct link to the video interview:

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-320.html

" My whole point of the article was that history repeats itself,"

Not really. For instance Persia hasn't invaded Greece lately.

Similar (not the same) things may happen given the enormous potential of various human behaviors but there is no law that says history must repeat itself. Nor are you giving credit for people and organizations to learn, that does happen you know.

Also, Sony will start selling movies on Memory Stick.
Another really stupid idea brought to you by Sony. A 1GB Memory stick cost about $40-50 so what are they going to charge for a movie on one. This will fail faster then UMD. I don't own one thing that supports Sony's memory stick products. Sony just doesn't get it, they are out of touch with what consumers want. Movies on memory stick seems like a waste of company resources to me.

Enigma: I agree with you. Why did what I say automatically means that I disagree? The OP said that HD DVD was first that the DVD forum made a comparison and picked what they did because they thought it was better. The comparison never happened. The people working on a .1mm blue laser decided to work on it outside the DVD forum. Why could they do that? simply because the DVD forum is not a standards comity but an organization created to manage the tech known as DVD. If I create a new codec and I want to be a Videoconferencing standard I don't have the choice but to submit it to the ITU and get an ITU ID like H.264 (it also has it's own name AVC and an MPEG ID MPEG-4 and why it ended up with three names). The DVD forum is not a movie distribution standards comity, so they did not need to submit, and like you mentioned there are many benefits into not submitting and creating a new independent organization to manage the new format.

Another really stupid idea brought to you by Sony. A 1GB Memory stick cost about $40-50 so what are they going to charge for a movie on one. This will fail faster then UMD. I don't own one thing that supports Sony's memory stick products. Sony just doesn't get it, they are out of touch with what consumers want. Movies on memory stick seems like a waste of company resources to me.

Not to me.

This is a far better solution to either HiDef DVD format to me.

Whether they plan to do this with the Sony Memory stick or a USB device is the key here.

If it's a USB device, than it has instant universal ability for whatever movie is on it to be played anywhere. Use of the Sony Brand Memory stick does indeed limit playback, which in turns limit sales. But nothing is stopping other companies from putting movies on USB devices.

Movies on USB devices, more applicable at this time than HDVDD or BluRay.

I don't see how Memorystick was a failure (its still sold daily) as is Digital 8, yes they probably don't share the success of SD or DV, but it works and its supported.

UMD, well i for one like the option of buying a movie for the little marvel which is PSP. Although i currently only have 5 flicks for my psp, let me have to take a flight im sure i'd snatch up 3 or 4 more.

I'd hardly call these "failures" especially when they have no sign of dissapearing any time soon.

people say the UMD failed or is failing because it is losing studio support. from the reports, studios are starting to distance themselves from the UMD format because it is simply not making money. sure, you may buy UMD movies, and support the format, but the majority of PSP owners aren't.

the main issue is cost. why would someone buy a $25-30 UMD movie when the DVD is around $10-15? sure, it's portable, but so is a portable DVD player. also, DVD's can be played on any DVD player (duh), whereas UMD's can only be played on the PSP...

Mini-disc was a major success in Japan. You can still buy Japanese cars with mini-disc support standard. And if it weren't for widespread music piracy online, Minidisc probably would have carried the day over MP3 players.

And Memory sticks have seen support from a wide variety of electronics, not only Sony. I personally have a JVC video camera that accepts memory sticks for taking pictures.

And anyone saying that PS3 is a wash for Blu-ray because of the Xbox360's addon drive is just being ridiciulous. Every PS3 has the drive built in, so there's no additional cost to try it out, where as a 360 owner has to invest about $200 to give it a shot. Given the horrendous history of console addons, I don't think that the HD-DVD drive will be much of a factor. IMO, the PS3 will be the driving engine of blu-ray. By the end of 4th quarter, there will probably be about 8 times as many PS3's shipped as HD-DVD players. . .

IMO, the PS3 will be the driving engine of blu-ray. By the end of 4th quarter, there will probably be about 8 times as many PS3's shipped as HD-DVD players. . .

While true, it does not mean that those PS3s will automatically sell BluRay Movies.

UMD on the PSP. At least a few million PSPs have sold in the USA, but that did not help the UMD movies sell. Even with the potential PSP userbase growing on a daily basis.

But in all likely hood, I don't see Sony shipping anyting over 1 million units to North America by the end of the year. Thus giving HD-DVD even more time to get a foothold.

While true, it does not mean that those PS3s will automatically sell BluRay Movies.

UMD on the PSP. At least a few million PSPs have sold in the USA, but that did not help the UMD movies sell. Even with the potential PSP userbase growing on a daily basis.

But in all likely hood, I don't see Sony shipping anyting over 1 million units to North America by the end of the year. Thus giving HD-DVD even more time to get a foothold.

True, but there is a difference between home theater and portable theater. If one has a PSP and a DVD player, then they have to choose buying the movie to watch on the go, or at home. If you have a PS3 and a DVD player, then you choose watching the Hi-def movie at home or the SD movie at home. I see this as fundementally different, since we're talking about a choice regarding movie quality, not the location of movie viewing.


Re: sales, they're expecting 4 million world wide by the end of the fourth quarter, I believe. I don't see why focusing on the US exclusively makes sense. But even so, that's 2 million for the US. I'd be amazed if any non gaming piece of consumer hardware sold anywhere near that number. I think selling 250k would be an amazing number for HD-DVD, and that's 8 times less than what the PS3 is projected to do in North America alone.

True, but there is a difference between home theater and portable theater. If one has a PSP and a DVD player, then they have to choose buying the movie to watch on the go, or at home. If you have a PS3 and a DVD player, then you choose watching the Hi-def movie at home or the SD movie at home. I see this as fundementally different, since we're talking about a choice regarding movie quality, not the location of movie viewing.


Re: sales, they're expecting 4 million world wide by the end of the fourth quarter, I believe. I don't see why focusing on the US exclusively makes sense. But even so, that's 2 million for the US. I'd be amazed if any non gaming piece of consumer hardware sold anywhere near that number. I think selling 250k would be an amazing number for HD-DVD, and that's 8 times less than what the PS3 is projected to do in North America alone.

IF Sony's expectations were a better reflection of reality their stock price wouldn't be tanking the way it is! Here is a company that seems to have lost their connection with their customer base....at least in the US (or so it appears).

IF Sony's expectations were a better reflection of reality their stock price wouldn't be tanking the way it is! Here is a company that seems to have lost their connection with their customer base....at least in the US (or so it appears).

The company is in trouble. There's no doubt about that. But they've always met and exceeded expectations in the games unit (including the PSP, which is a monster success in the US, even though it has no games). But I think that the stock price is hurting from their failure to compete with the ipod, and the huge R&D expenses associated with Blu-Ray and Cell, more so than fear that the PS3 won't sell. Also, let's not forget that it's VERY recent that Sony has regained it's stature in the LCD TV field, with the Bravia line.

Re: sales, they're expecting 4 million world wide by the end of the fourth quarter, I believe. .

They can expect anything they want, reality usually hits Sony pretty hard when the time comes.

The PS2 was to ship 1 million to North America on Launch, it shipped 500K.

And it wasn't till March of the next year when PS2 were more available.

Sony expectations are usually Sony lies.

And with the CELL yeilds like this, Sony will have a lot of work to do to meet it's said goals.

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365

Electronic News: What’s the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?

Reeves:

Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It’s a great strategy, and I’m not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though.

They can expect anything they want, reality usually hits Sony pretty hard when the time comes.

The PS2 was to ship 1 million to North America on Launch, it shipped 500K.

And it wasn't till March of the next year when PS2 were more available.

Sony expectations are usually Sony lies.

And with the CELL yeilds like this, Sony will have a lot of work to do to meet it's said goals.

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365

Electronic News: What’s the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?

Reeves:

Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It’s a great strategy, and I’m not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though.

And they are using logic redundany. That's the whole point of the 7 SPE cell vs the 8 SPE cell. And the failed chips will still be used in other electronics, like Sony and Toshiba TVs, DVD players, and quite possibly, stand alone HD-DVD and Blu-ray players. IBM is also using the better 8 SPE chips for server applications. Since the word on the street is that SOny is hoarding Diodes for the PS3 launch, I suspect that they're stock piling the resources they need. Even at 20-40% yields (remember, we have logic redundancy) Sony and IBM should be making a lot of chips with the huge number of fabs they have combined. Toshiba may be making them too (I'm not sure if they own any fabs or not.)

Agreed that Sony did succeed nicely with the CD in their collaboration with Philips. And it is also true that BD is not closed technology of one company.

On the other side of the coin, .1mm recording was a research project at Sony. Their researchers came to Matsushita, asking if they would want to go to market with it and they said yes and here we are. They have let other companies join them and share the specifications with them. And let them add things to it.


Reply: If Sony was a little less arrogant with Matsushita in the very beginning, Beta just might have won the marketing battle. But they rubbed people the wrong way and unwittingly opened a door for JVC (JVC invented VHS).

Who is worrying about Sony, they make enough of our money.

Your post has a number of factual errors. The idea itself is flawed because the number of failed proprietary formats does not predict how Blu-ray will fare, in light of the number of successful proprietary formats Sony has introduced. Having said that, I don't think either number matters too much at this point. There are a number of other, much more important issues at hand.
This is an awesome thread with the exception of a few posts.
Thanks!:)

I'm stuck with a $1200 microMV camcorder. Time for Goodwill donation...

you mean like this?

In this case the sony card is cheaper by more than half:
Sandisk 512mb Secure Digital $44.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5886366&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1060002782027)
San Disk Memory stick 512mb $19.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=5928623&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1060605892903)


Hey look these are the same price:
Sandisk 1gb SD $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6730264&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04007&id=1083716072950)
Sony 1gb pro duo $69.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7130963&type=product&productCategoryId=cat04006&id=1110263398002)

wheres the premium?

there sure is alot of monkey poo (anti sony sentiment) flung around this board. I'm all for opinion and putting IMO after a statement. But don't try and pass your opinion off as fact.

Thanks,


Are you known to be a little slow? Don't try to make a point with BS information:

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=1358809/search=sd+512

http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=5743664/promo_id=27/clt_id=69/search=sd+1gb

http://www.pricegrabber.com/p__Kingston_2GB_Secure_Digital_Card,__17132540/search=sd+2gb

They can expect anything they want, reality usually hits Sony pretty hard when the time comes.

The PS2 was to ship 1 million to North America on Launch, it shipped 500K.

And it wasn't till March of the next year when PS2 were more available.

Sony expectations are usually Sony lies.

And with the CELL yeilds like this, Sony will have a lot of work to do to meet it's said goals.

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6350202.html?industryid=21365

Electronic News: What’s the defining factor that makes some chips better than others?

Reeves:

Defects. It becomes a bigger problem the bigger the chip is. With chips that are one-by-one and silicon germanium, we can get yields of 95 percent. With a chip like the Cell processor, you’re lucky to get 10 or 20 percent. If you put logic redundancy on it, you can double that. It’s a great strategy, and I’m not sure anyone other than IBM is doing that with logic. Everybody does it with DRAM. There are always extra bits in there for memory. People have not yet moved to logic block redundancy, though.


Yeah everyone got their "Toy Story quality graphics" sure enough. Speaking of waiting until March for a PS2, it wasn't until later that year that the system even had a single game to surpass 1998 Dreamcast Soul Calibur graphics. It's all hype with these people.


Anyhow, with regard to Blu-Ray, I will make the admission that when Sony and Matsushita back a format together, it is very very unlikely to fail. I may hate Sony overall, but I do respect certain pieces from them like the SCD-1 and DVP-S7000 (both of which I own), and believe that Blu-Ray is the way forward since it offers so much more expandability for the future.

Yeah everyone got their "Toy Story quality graphics" sure enough. Speaking of waiting until March for a PS2, it wasn't until later that year that the system even had a single game to surpass 1998 Dreamcast Soul Calibur graphics. It's all hype with these people.


Anyhow, with regard to Blu-Ray, I will make the admission that when Sony and Matsushita back a format together, it is very very unlikely to fail. I may hate Sony overall, but I do respect certain pieces from them like the SCD-1 and DVP-S7000 (both of which I own), and believe that Blu-Ray is the way forward since it offers so much more expandability for the future.

yup, maybe this time MS will meet there promises on the Toy Story graphics! lol, its a lot of hype with MS, Sony executives.. Regardless I've more than received my moneys worth from their systems :D

Soul Calibur on DC is sweet. I like them all actually from the PS1 version (Soul Blade/Edge).

Who's the Best Brand in Town? (http://hometheatermag.com/news/071206harris/)

This marks the seventh consecutive year that Sony has made it to the top spot...
1. Sony
2. Dell
3. Coca-Cola
4. Toyota
5. Ford
6. Honda
7. Hewlett Packard
8. General Electric
9. Kraft Foods
10. Apple

Who's the Best Brand in Town? (http://hometheatermag.com/news/071206harris/)


1. Sony
2. Dell
3. Coca-Cola
4. Toyota
5. Ford
6. Honda
7. Hewlett Packard
8. General Electric
9. Kraft Foods
10. Apple

"Interestingly, HD DVD-backer Toshiba is nowhere to be found in the Harris Poll's top-10 list. Could this be the extra edge Blu-ray needs to crush HD DVD, or will the results be just another plaque on the walls at Sony USA's headquarters? Will more Blu-ray Disc players be delayed? Will Toshiba decide to lose even more money on HD DVD? Do any of the people who participated in this survey care? "

interesting

I don't see that list as being accurate. It's entirely my opinion, but I think Coke and Apple would be higher than Sony. I've yet to meet a mac or Ipod owner who is unhappy with Apple.

I don't see that list as being accurate. It's entirely my opinion, but I think Coke and Apple would be higher than Sony. I've yet to meet a mac or Ipod owner who is unhappy with Apple.

I like my Ipod Mini that my work bought me but I've read complaints. As well as I know older models had battery problems that were well documented.

I don't see that list as being accurate. It's entirely my opinion, but I think Coke and Apple would be higher than Sony. I've yet to meet a mac or Ipod owner who is unhappy with Apple.

I know so many people that only buy Sony. I'm not surprised by that result at all. What does surprise me is seeing Ford up there, because I think we all know about American car reliability. . .

Sony was strongly selected as the number 1 response, since 2000.

Ahh But the survey methodogy may have a number of issues:

It was an online poll. It may not be representative of USA as a whole. It was corrected for demographics, but the online sample size always skews toward white male upscale well educated nerds.

Self selection bias may apply, what motivated repondents to complete the survey.

The poll was of unaided recognition and the users had to name names. Short names have an advantage and advertising levels effect the outcome. Sony is a simple name, and respondents were asked to provide 3 names.

Sony has an advantage as a CE name, because a lot of people don't know the name of the Wal-Mart CE boxes they buy.

Brand recognition may not transfer into another brand extention, and Sony is not co branding with Blu-Ray as much as it is co-branding with Playstation.

All in all though, Sony's name recognition is a high one and it is an advantage for the Blu-Ray format.

"It was an online poll. Not representative of USA as a whole."

which is true of pretty much any poll. :cool: Polls are just that samplings.. Same as polls here at AVS, they are hardly representative of anything more than that. ;)

Some polls can be extremely accurate when a large enough random sample is used.

Online polls have a unusual bias as they are not random samples, but self selected.

Polls here on AVS are highly accurate, more so than most online polls, if you realize that the online polls here are getting the opinion of highly motivated early adopter obsessive fanatical purist obsessive audio video freaks and geeks, who salesmen don't like, which is a very small subset of the whole population. ;)

Some polls can be extremely accurate when a large enough random sample is used.

Online polls have a unusual bias as they are not random samples, but self selected.

Polls here on AVS are highly accurate, more so than most online polls, if you realize that the online polls here are getting the opinion of highly motivated early adopter obsessive fanatical purist obsessive audio video freaks and geeks, who salesmen don't like, which is a very small subset of the whole population. ;)


Some can be, true. Honestly though AVS polls aren't of a large enough sample, I don't think they are highly accurate by any means unless you meant within the AVS population alone which is insignificant when it comes to consumers in general.

Some polls can be extremely accurate when a large enough random sample is used.

Online polls have a unusual bias as they are not random samples, but self selected.

Polls here on AVS are highly accurate, more so than most online polls, if you realize that the online polls here are getting the opinion of highly motivated early adopter obsessive fanatical purist obsessive audio video freaks and geeks, who salesmen don't like, which is a very small subset of the whole population. ;)


Polls here are only accurate if you intend to look at a subgroup of people (i.e. AV geeks who spend a lot of time on this particular internet forum), who also do not in any way represent the general population. Hence, they by no means reflect the opinion of the mass. One easy example is the Sony brand, hated by half of the people here while quite popular among average consumers.

Polls here are only accurate if you intend to look at a subgroup of people (i.e. AV geeks who spend a lot of time on this particular internet forum), who also do not in any way represent the general population. Hence, they by no means reflect the opinion of the mass. One easy example is the Sony brand, hated by half of the people here while quite popular among average consumers.


Who are you referring to by AV geeks with too much time on the internet forum? Those with less or more than 500 posts :D

Polls are just that samplings..

May I remind you that the whole basis of digital audio and video is sampling :D

May I remind you that the whole basis of digital audio and video is sampling :D

:o

I would never purchase a Sony product. I found them in the past to be completely unreliable and prone to breaking down far too often to ever go and purchase their electronics again.

Perhaps things have changed, but people seem to buy the PS2 over and over again cause they break.

I would never purchase a Sony product. I found them in the past to be completely unreliable and prone to breaking down far too often to ever go and purchase their electronics again.

Perhaps things have changed, but people seem to buy the PS2 over and over again cause they break.

I can only speak from my experience, but I've been happy with every Sony purchase I've ever made (and I've made a lot. . .) And my PS2 is still going strong and I got it the March after release. I also never had to replace my PSone.

I can only speak from my experience, but I've been happy with every Sony purchase I've ever made (and I've made a lot. . .) And my PS2 is still going strong and I got it the March after release. I also never had to replace my PSone.

yup, my launch PS2 never had issues either. Of course when you have over 100 million units out there there will be some defects, true of any electronics. Moreso you'll hear complaints about it more than a product that only has 1/4 of that, doesn't mean the % is any more. There is something to be said that people want to replace broken products to continue enjoying great content.

I can only speak from my experience, but I've been happy with every Sony purchase I've ever made (and I've made a lot. . .) And my PS2 is still going strong and I got it the March after release. I also never had to replace my PSone.

Mind if I ask how often you play? I'm just wondering because I' ve gone through 3 PS2s. I've had to adjust the laser pickup on them at least a couple times each to keep it reading discs. I'm trying to figure out if it's my usage or I'm just getting lame ones.

Mind if I ask how often you play? I'm just wondering because I' ve gone through 3 PS2s. I've had to adjust the laser pickup on them at least a couple times each to keep it reading discs. I'm trying to figure out if it's my usage or I'm just getting lame ones.

I know you didn't ask me. But I played mine very heavily (spent a lot more time playing games than I do now) Here are some of the longer ones, a lot of others as well but shorter games.

Tekken Tag absorded tons of time as well as 4 and 5.
NHL Hockey 2001 -playing through a season, tons of 4 player games, sometimes 8 players at once as well :D
Oni- played quite a lot (one of the few peolpe who actuall liked the game and its FPS style dual analog controls) Load times are insane on this game.
NBA 2k2 - similar to NHL, lots of time in the league, making players, etc.
TimeSplitters 2, doing challenges making custom levels, etc.
Winning Eleven 6 (spent the most on 6), 7, 9(played more than any other version) - going through the master league for quite a few seasons. If anybody has played a WE game you know the dedication it takes to become even decent in it.
Maximo: Ghosts to Glory - very challenging games, took me quite a long time to master it.
GTA III - playing through the entire game takes a LONG time.
Midnight Club II, never beat it but got pretty far. Made quite a bit of custom maps as well.

Mind if I ask how often you play? I'm just wondering because I' ve gone through 3 PS2s. I've had to adjust the laser pickup on them at least a couple times each to keep it reading discs. I'm trying to figure out if it's my usage or I'm just getting lame ones.

I was a VERY heavy user before starting law school. In undergrad, and in the year off that I had, I used it extensively. I mostly play JRPG's, so that should give you an idea of the hours logged ;) I also used it as my dvd player in undergrad, and have played a lot of PSone games on it. A friend of mine is about an equally heavy user, but doesn't use it for dvd playback, and his is going. I actually think it might come down to keeping the dust away from the vents more than anything, because I always kept the system in an entertainment unit behind a glass door when it wasn't in use.

Sony, Panasonic Expand HD Camcorder Format
TWICE, 7/13/2006

Following an announcement in May, Sony and Panasonic announced today that the jointly developed AVCHD format for recording HD video to traditional DVD discs will be expanded to include flash-memory cards and hard-disk drives.

The AVCHD format uses the MPEG-4 AVC/H.264 codec to record 1,080i and 720p high-definition video to standard 8cm DVD discs. Panasonic had initially announced, separately, that it was working on a variant of the codec for recording HD video to flash-memory cards.

According to a joint statement, both companies are “extensively” promoting the new format throughout the industry and have won support from Canon, Pioneer, Samsung, Sharp, Cyberlink, InterVideo, Nero AG, Sonic Solutions and Ulead Systems.

In an effort to expand the environment in which AVCHD content can be played, Sony and Panasonic have developed licensing programs for playback appliances and PC software."

Add another proprietary Sony format to the list - AVCHD

I was a VERY heavy user before starting law school. In undergrad, and in the year off that I had, I used it extensively. I mostly play JRPG's, so that should give you an idea of the hours logged ;) I also used it as my dvd player in undergrad, and have played a lot of PSone games on it. A friend of mine is about an equally heavy user, but doesn't use it for dvd playback, and his is going. I actually think it might come down to keeping the dust away from the vents more than anything, because I always kept the system in an entertainment unit behind a glass door when it wasn't in use.

I was thinking it could be dust. I live in the desert and dust gets anywhere and everywhere. Oh well, by the time I need another they will be dirt cheap (ps3 launch). Thanks for the response and good luck with law school. It was a PIA but sooooooo worth it.

I was thinking it could be dust. I live in the desert and dust gets anywhere and everywhere. Oh well, by the time I need another they will be dirt cheap (ps3 launch). Thanks for the response and good luck with law school. It was a PIA but sooooooo worth it.

Thanks. Interview week is coming up, so that should be interesting. . . What school did you go to, and what area did you go into, if you don't mind my asking?

I know this was a hot topic some for a few days in July and has since died out. But I've just spent an hour reading it all and feel I've come to know you all ;-) and I should add my own comments.

Firstly, if you want to know about Top Global Brands, check this out;
[search Google for top brands and look for the "finfacts.ie" website]
See how far you need to scroll to find Sony.

Picture this if you will:
My nice new LCD TV; underneath this I have;
a DVD player/recorder (I went with DVD-R),
a VHS player,
a 5.1 home theatre type thing,
oh and my cable box.

Yep, four plastic boxes balanced on top of one another sucking up all that electrical juice and overloading my extension sockets. Imagine if, along the way I'd also stacked up an MD player and other "failed"* products. My living room just isn't big enough, let alone my bank balance, to fork out for a multitude of multi media players like HD-DVD or Blue ray players. Not to mention the variey of media libraries I'd need. Can you? Especially if you know they may become obsolete in a matter of months.

LET THE CONSUMERS DECIDE
I understand progression of technology but proprietary (AND expensive) technology shows a complete lack of respect for consumers. I love the fact that ingenious people are pushing the envelope of innovation. But what is really important to the companies (especially Sony); the consumer or the big fat dollar?

The Memory duo in my mobile phone is useless if I want to share anything onto my friends PC. Yes I know 74 in 1 card readers are available, but that's not the point. Especially if Sony release a "Memory duo Mk2 Ultra"** the following day.

Imagine a world where every PC company had their own proprietary version of a USB flash disk. Forget about portable media.

You may find my thoughts irrelevant to this thread, but what are threads if not an interwoven, interlinking myriad of fibres.

*IMO, if it's superceded and considered defunct by the masses in a relatively short time, it's a failure.

**I made this up (obviously!), but you do get my point, don't you?

Blaze666, exactly. Standards are the way, and Blu-ray is the standard with the overwhelming studio and consumer electronics support. HD DVD's presence has done nothing but to hurt the consumer and the industry in the long-run, and it was perpetuated by Toshiba and Universal alone. When nearly everyone else in the industry is behind a certain format, and you go against it, that's just plain stubborn.

I understand that you were trying to point out BD as a 'proprietary' format of Sony's Blaze, but their 'lone gun' attitude simply isn't the case this time, whereas their competition is taking exactly that route.

As to the thread topic: Next year is set to be one of Sony's most profitable years in like a decade; I think we can all agree Sony is in no danger of failing, and their brand image is back on the rise with being the #1 brand in the US for HDTV sales this past year.

PS - This topic's from July, let's lock it on up.

Oh, you guys disagree?

Then I'll be interested to hear your points.

By the way Lagosian I think you post more in the BD section than you do in the HD DVD section. There's something very sad about that, especially since any post of yours here is invariably trolling.

yeah seriously, xbdestroya hits the nail on the head.

then two people respond with "lol thats hilarious" or "you are crazy"

responses like that show that the argument was spot on, you both know it, but you don't like it. the truth can hurt.

I had a feeling this thread would be revisited around this time.....

I believe Digital8 has been put out to pasture by the only company that made D8 products... yes, Sony.

D8 is not killed yet. There is still one new D8 camcorder model available from Sony.

To me, D8 is a logical move from Video8 to Hi8 to D8. Using the same form factor, I only need one player to play all my family video tapes. Besides, D8 is about 9 years old now, so I find it to be a normal life cycle (8 to 10 years per format).

Furthermore, Betamax is not a failure in many Asian countries and in the Middle East. I owned many iterations of Betamax from the original version to Beta Hi-Fi, to Super Beta Hi-Fi, to ED-Beta which was the same resolution as LaserDisc.

I do hope, however, for BD to fail just due to its high cost players and inconsistencies of PQ.

I do hope, however, for BD to fail just due to its high cost players and inconsistencies of PQ.I understand that a lot of people did go with HD DVD because of lower player cost but honestly speaking it is somewhat obvious that the players were subsidized. As such it is not an issue of Blu-ray companies trying to overcharge consumers so much as Toshiba taking a rather extraordinary measure to try to win this format war. Not a bad idea but it has created a myth about Blu-ray companies that isn't really fair. As for PQ issues there certainly was a problem for Blu-ray at launch but if you look at the last few months worth of reviews the two HD formats as about equal. You can find both great and poor discs on both of the HD formats now.

hits the nail on the head. Thread will be nailed shut if it doesn't get back on topic.

I understand that a lot of people did go with HD DVD because of lower player cost but honestly speaking it is somewhat obvious that the players were subsidized. As such it is not an issue of Blu-ray companies trying to overcharge consumers so much as Toshiba taking a rather extraordinary measure to try to win this format war. Not a bad idea but it has created a myth about Blu-ray companies that isn't really fair. As for PQ issues there certainly was a problem for Blu-ray at launch but if you look at the last few months worth of reviews the two HD formats as about equal. You can find both great and poor discs on both of the HD formats now.

Although it's true that the first gen were subsidized, the 2nd gen are not. Still they are hundreds of dollars cheapers than their BD counterpart.

Secondly, although the PQ of BD is getting consistently better, some of them are unfortunately still in MPEG2 (and no indication on the case at all). Furthermore, although I still see blocking in VC1, I see it more clearly in MPEG2.

Now if within the next 3 months BD can release a player that retails in Canada for US$450 (none of those online sales because they are not covered by Canadian warranty) and ALL BD have been properly encoded using VC1 or AVC, then I'll start buying BD titles. At this current state, I only borrow or rent BD movies. :)

Thread will be nailed shut if it doesn't get back on topic.

Why wait?


Secondly, although the PQ of BD is getting consistently better, some of them are unfortunately still in MPEG2 (and no indication on the case at all). Furthermore, although I still see blocking in VC1, I see it more clearly in MPEG2.

Now.. are you talking about PQ improvements.... or MPEG-2?

They're not mutually exclusive you know. ;) Some the best BD titles are MPEG-2.

I agree that the best titles on BD are MPEG2. However, when the scenes fade-in or fade-out, I can detect the blocks and that annoys the bejesus out of me :p Thus ruin the entire movie for me. Hence, thus far, I haven't bought anymore BD movies. :)

I agree that the best titles on BD are MPEG2. However, when the scenes fade-in or fade-out, I can detect the blocks and that annoys the bejesus out of me :p Thus ruin the entire movie for me. Hence, thus far, I haven't bought anymore BD movies. :) I guess your favorite movies have a lot of fade-ins and fade-outs then, something like 1 per minute? ;)

Most of the movies I watch, personal favorite or not, don't have that much. So I'm happy. Find your happiness I say!


fuad

Thread will be nailed shut if it doesn't get back on topic.Okay, the original poster besides being wrong about several of the things he posted was overlooking many issues of far greater importance (CE support, studio support, etc...). About the same thing that Ken said back on page 1 of this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7962958&&#post7962958).


Although it's true that the first gen were subsidized, the 2nd gen are not. Still they are hundreds of dollars cheapers than their BD counterpart.That though is based on the belief that the second generation players are not being subsidized. Also how many CE companies other than Toshiba are making and selling HD DVD players for less than a $1000?


I agree that the best titles on BD are MPEG2. However, when the scenes fade-in or fade-out, I can detect the blocks and that annoys the bejesus out of me :p Thus ruin the entire movie for me. Hence, thus far, I haven't bought anymore BD movies. :)Are you sure this is a problem with the Blu-ray movies you are watching or could it be the display you are using? No offense but I have seen you mention this before for some of the best looking Blu-ray discs out there that professional reviewers said had no compression artifacts. Just saying that sometimes people overlook obvious possibilities and end up blaming something which isn't actually the problem.

The Memory duo in my mobile phone is useless if I want to share anything onto my friends PC. Yes I know 74 in 1 card readers are available, but that's not the point. Especially if Sony release a "Memory duo Mk2 Ultra"** the following day.


The MS Pro Duo stick I bought to use with my camcorder came with a USB adaptor.

I'm not crazy about the proliferation of incompatible flash memory formats, but moving data around is so trivial anymore. Your phone and computer don't talk via bluetooth, or you don't have a USB-phone cord?

My printer also has all of these slots for memory, and I've printed from dozens of cameras with no issues.

Thanks for resurrecting the thread though, it was amusing to be reminded of the sony FUD from 6 months ago.

Although it's true that the first gen were subsidized, the 2nd gen are not. Still they are hundreds of dollars cheapers than their BD counterpart.
What 'truth' are you basing the first generation subsidies on? I have yet to see any reliable information that either confirms or refutes the issue of Toshiba's purported subsidization of the first generation of players.

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Are you sure this is a problem with the Blu-ray movies you are watching or could it be the display you are using? No offense but I have seen you mention this before for some of the best looking Blu-ray discs out there that professional reviewers said had no compression artifacts. Just saying that sometimes people overlook obvious possibilities and end up blaming something which isn't actually the problem.

There is another thread on the HD DVD forum comparing VC1/AVC vs MPEG2. A couple of people have the exact same finding.

I'm not discounting that it may be my player (Samsung) or my TV (Sony CRT RPTV, ISF calibrated annually). However, although I see the blocking on VC1 encodes, I see it more clearly on the MPEG2 encodes.

That doesn't mean I refuse to watch MPEG2 encodes, I just refuse to buy MPEG2 encodes. Thus I have about 40 HD DVD and only 3 BD movies.

I guess your favorite movies have a lot of fade-ins and fade-outs then, something like 1 per minute? ;)

Most of the movies I watch, personal favorite or not, don't have that much. So I'm happy. Find your happiness I say!


fuad

well, just like some people are annoyed because the utensils on their dinner set up have a tiny scratch, I'm annoyed with the fade ins and out. That doesn't mean those people don't use their utensils just like it doesn't mean I don't watch BD movies. Those people don't buy scratched utensils, I don't buy BD movies (yet) :p

Anyone remember the EL-Cassette from Sony back in the 70's? I think it was to replace the reel-to-reel back then.

Is it already old news in this section that Sony had announced at the CES 2007 that two new upcoming movie releases will be encoded in MPEG 4 AVC/H.264?

One place I've read said that Sony will now be ending use of MPEG 2 encoding, while another place says that this is just a test trial for Sony.

David Bishop, Sony Pres of Home Entertainment was the one who supposedly made the announcement at CES.


nx211

There is another thread on the HD DVD forum comparing VC1/AVC vs MPEG2. A couple of people have the exact same finding.

I'm not discounting that it may be my player (Samsung) or my TV (Sony CRT RPTV, ISF calibrated annually). However, although I see the blocking on VC1 encodes, I see it more clearly on the MPEG2 encodes.

That doesn't mean I refuse to watch MPEG2 encodes, I just refuse to buy MPEG2 encodes. Thus I have about 40 HD DVD and only 3 BD movies.

I have 20 Dtheatre movies, all Mpeg2. I have 12 BDs, some Mpeg2. I've never seen any blocking whatsoever on any of those titles. But then again, I don't have any pixels in my display...I use CRT (rear and front projection) and component connection exclusively.

I have 20 Dtheatre movies, all Mpeg2. I have 12 BDs, some Mpeg2. I've never seen any blocking whatsoever on any of those titles. But then again, I don't have any pixels in my display...I use CRT (rear and front projection) and component connection exclusively.

Me too. I have over 90 Dtheater movies, about 15 BDs and over 30 HD-DVDs. I have watched them on several fullHD 1080p projector both crt and digitals. Never seen any such problem with MPEG2 on Dtheater or BD compared to VC1 encodings.

Me too. I have over 90 Dtheater movies, about 15 BDs and over 30 HD-DVDs. I have watched them on several fullHD 1080p projector both crt and digitals. Never seen any such problem with MPEG2 on Dtheater or BD compared to VC1 encodings.

Well, almost nobody have ever seen blocking on VC1 either, but I still do. Unfortunately.

oh nice Mark0 is in here spewing his FUD again. Too many trolls like him coming to both forums with nothing informative to say are ruining AVS.

For starters that's one store not the entire market. The first two are hardly comparable since Sandisk is charging extra for the "digital secure" feature. What is the cost of their most basic 512mb since that is the most basic memory stick pro you chose to compare it to. The pro duo would have been a closer match and it costs around $60 (69 in your example). That doesn't even take into account the "Ultra" line SKUs. That's a premium. I also find it comical that in order to prove Sony doesn't charge a premium for their product you sighted two Sandisk products that aren't even equivalent. Apples to Oranges. Check features and price when drawing these comparisons.

"Secure Digital" or SD is the name of the format, not a feature...

well sony is in big trouble and with the ps3
check this out
http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=20745&hed=PS3+Sales+Could+Fall+Short

I do hope, however, for BD to fail just due to its high cost players and inconsistencies of PQ.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, because first generation DVD players were so cheap; because first generation laserdisc players were so cheap; because first generation D-VHS decks were so cheap;

Every new technology comes at a cost - and that cost is higher the more innovative it is. And invariably, that cost drops as production increases and time goes on.

And before you roll out the first gen Toshiba HD-DVD player being cheap ($500) - I spent $99 more and got a BD player and a free game machine too.

David - are you one of those people that act as if the 20GB PS3 doesn't exist?

My first DVD player on the first day of release in March 1997 (Panasonic DVD-A300) was purchased for a mere US$500. My first LD player bought in 1983 was about US$500 (admittedly not first gen but still one of the first).

PS: I bought the first gen Toshiba on its first day of release in Canada for a mere US$400. Only AFTER more than 6 month LATER, I can get PS3 for US$600. So to me, I will still have to pay 50% more for something that at best equals HD DVD. That US$200 difference equals to another 10 movies for me to enjoy... and I can enjoy them 6 months earlier. :p

You see, this is the uneducated FUD that I hate which rapes my eyes on both forums. You found a cheap HD-DVD player for well below MSRP, good for you. If you can't be unbiased then don't be so obvious in a BD forum.

Your post is basically a mishmash of irrelevant anecdotes. I don't think anyone cares what DVD players you bought x years ago. Really. You pretend that you are an early adopter and then you bash whatever you didn't adopt. So, if you hate the PS3 the HDDVD forum is the other way. If you actually have something insightful or constructive to say then by all means tell us.

David - are you one of those people that act as if the 20GB PS3 doesn't exist?

Kindly read my post CAREFULLY:

"... and I can enjoy them 6 months earlier."

When I talk about being an early adopter, I'm REALLY talking about early adopter such as "get it on the first day it's available" kind of early.

PS: 20 Gb PS3 does NOT exist anywhere in my area. There are quite a number of 60 Gb available, but not the 20 Gb. So the choice for people like me is to spend (right here, right now, right this moment) US$400 for an HDA2 or US$600 for the 60 Gb PS3 or US$900 for ye' olde Samsung or the new Philips standalone.

PPS: let's not talk about internet pricing because being in Canada, that means no support, no warranty, sometimes even no service whatsoever will be given (in the case of Nikon cameras, etc).

So... what it seems is that to me, the player you wanted has demand that outstrips supplies. ;) Ironically... it's the PS3!

You're falling into the same old PS3-bashing trap of early December: PS3 doesn't even count because it has too few supplies, you can't find them. (So, in essence you don't believe the 20GB PS3 'exists')

But, when they do exist, and are available... these things are "selling terribly," and "nobody wants them." Does that about sum it up? PS3's not in stores = irrelevent. PS3's in stores = failure.

You see, this is the uneducated FUD that I hate which rapes my eyes on both forums. You found a cheap HD-DVD player for well below MSRP, good for you. If you can't be unbiased then don't be so obvious in a BD forum.

Your post is basically a mishmash of irrelevant anecdotes. I don't think anyone cares what DVD players you bought x years ago. Really. You pretend that you are an early adopter and then you bash whatever you didn't adopt. So, if you hate the PS3 the HDDVD forum is the other way. If you actually have something insightful or constructive to say then by all means tell us.

I'm buying HD DVD player and PS3 for me, not for anybody else from this forum. I can get (actually most people can too) get HD-A2 for US$400 but I can NOT get a 60 Gb PS3 for less than US$600 (if I want proper Canadian warranty and support).

I'm quoting and making my decisions based on the best price I can get within my requirement set (ie. carries Canadian warranty and support).

PS: You think you're so insightful you know the content of my house? :rolleyes: Who says I didn't adopt BD? Kindly come to my house right now to see my Samsung BD player (bought on the first day of release in Canada) and my 60 Gb PS3 (pre-ordered and received on the first day of release in Canada too... unfortunately for my daughter to play DDR) :rolleyes:

how is the pq the same when the br's currently output 1080p and the hd-dvd's dont?

or do the standalone ones output 1080p native now? i'm pretty sure the hd-dvd addon for the xbox doesn't

do we always have to go back with the explanation that none of the BD player do 1080p straight through output but instead they're internally outputting 1080i and then de-interlaced by the player itself? There is no difference in PQ until the player itself do a 1080p straight-through output.

do we always have to go back with the explanation that none of the BD player do 1080p straight through output but instead they're internally outputting 1080i and then de-interlaced by the player itself? There is no difference in PQ until the player itself do a 1080p straight-through output.

The Sony and Elite have source mode, i.e. they read and output whatever is on the disc.

The context of my post is comparisons of all the players I have. I don't know about Sony pricing in Canada, but Elite pricing is about US$450 higher than HD-XA2 which also does 1080p PLUS SD DVD upconversion using Raeon chip.