HDMI not allowing Closed Captioning? [Text View]

sfhub

07-17-06, 02:49 PM

Going from memory here... CC is required by law on all 27 inch or bigger TVs made after 1992. From what I understand, these plasmas/LCD's are techincally TVs so they are not required to have CC. However, both of these models have it for watching regular TV which is nice.

I'll try calling up Sharp and/or Sceptre but corporations usually have an automated system that requires navigating through before getting to an actual customer rep - very difficult to do when you have to do it through a painfully slow relaying service (remember I'm deaf) - At the end of each menu option on the phone, they hang up, type out what was said, ask if I want to select any of the options, I tell them I want... for example number 3. They redial, go through the whole process again, press 3, then they get another menu to choose from... On and on... Good thing I have the day off from work today. ;)
AFAIK there is no standard to transmit CC information over 720p/1080i interconnects and that is why you are not seeing CC information.

The CC transmission AFAIK is just for NTSC compatible signals and is sent over line21 VBI vertical blanking interval. The equivalent for this doesn't exist for 720p/1080i interconnects.

By interconnect I mean the connection between your source (DVD player, HD tuner, STB, etc.) and your display. Interconnects are normally component or HDMI/DVI.

The solution for this for was to encode the CC information into the mpg stream itself but this has the side effect that only the device that decodes the mpg (in your case the DVD player or HD tuner) has access to the CC information. Once the mpg is decoded and then needs to be transmitted to the display using component or HDMI/DVI there is no way to transmit it (ie there is no standard for the CC transmission over component/HDMI/DVI) Thus if there is CC information the source device needs to overlay that CC info on the picture prior to transmitting to the display over the interconnect.

In the case of the upconverting DVD player, if the CC information exists, the DVD player will need to be responsible for overlaying the CC info if you want to set the output of the player to 720p/1080i.

If your TV has a builtin ATSC/QAM tuner, then it is the one doing the decoding of the mpg so it will have access to the CC info and should have the ability to display in that case.

In short, I don't think there is anything broken with your displays, they are functioning as designed. I can see how it would be inconvenient and hard to understand. There are so many moving parts with AV these days it takes a rocket scientist to understand why things don't work as expected.

Blesum

07-17-06, 02:56 PM

Godfreyb, I've got some bad news for ya... Yer screwed as well.

Both displays are going back.

Sceptre's customer service led to an answering machine saying to leave a number for them to call ya back at.

Sharp's was a bit better. Took only 10 minutes to get to a live person.

Here's what the rep said:

u are not going to be able to get the close captioning at 720p ga

Basically, I'm (we're) SOL.

When I pressed for more information:

just one moment pls i m gonna put u on hd thk u
(HOLDING) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd) (hd)
(hd) (hd) (hd)thk u for holding i m sorry about the
delay the only info regarding the close caption and
the 480 i signal for this television that i have is that
that s what it will display it doesn t do 720p or 1080i ga

Wait, are you saying that this TV won't display
720p or that it won't display captions at 720p q ga

it won t display captions at 720p from a dvd player
the only u can t upgrade the signal it s only going to
display the signal that is receiving from the dvd
player it won t upconvert it ga

why not, and how is sharp going to address this
shortcoming in the future q ga

i have no idea how sharp is planning on adjusting it
and the television is not made to upconvert ga

what do you suggest I do q ga

if you
re able to view it in the 480i format that s really the
only option that u have right now ga

even though I spent over two grand to have 720p
quality q ga

the tv won t display it from a dvd like that i m sorry it
s going to be an inconvenience for u but the tv won t
do what you re wanting it to do
i m sorry that that s we can t accommodate what
you re wanting the application that u want to have ga

I talked some more and asked if somebody at Sharp could contact me if they ever made a TV/DVD player set up that would allow for captions to come across. She instead suggested that I call back periodcally and check with them. I don't think I'm going to bother, but if anybody wants to pose as me, it'll go faster with my customer number - 3 1 3 4 5 1 5 so they can pull up the file about this and understand what you're trying to find out/ask.

Good riddance, future. Back to the stone age I go. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/images/icons/icon13.gif

-Blesum

Blesum

07-17-06, 03:04 PM

sfhub

07-17-06, 03:18 PM

Dear Rocket Scientist (Sfhub),

The Sceptre box has a ATSC port (screw-in, like with cable) in the back, so I assume it has this tuner. How do I get this TV to display 720p with captions from a DVD player? You make it sound like it's possible. Or is it just hopeless?
I probably could have been clearer then. I didn't intend to give the impression you could get your DVD player to output over the ATSC port and get CC in that way.

When I said ATSC/QAM tuner, I mean if your TV is tuning in OTA HDTV using ATSC tuner or if it was tuning in HD channels from your cable company using the QAM tuner, then your TV is the one decoding the mpg and thus has access to the CC info and can display it.

In the case of your DVD player, the DVD player decodes the mpg and at that point has access to the CC info (if present). If the DVD player does not do something with the CC info (as in overlay it on the picture it sends out) then the CC info is lost (assuming 720p/1080i output from the DVD player) because there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit that info to the TV so that it can display the CC info.

Basically I'm saying investigate whether the upconverting DVD player has the ability to display the CC info in the picture it sends out and if not complain to them. Any TV you buy will have the same problem of not being able to display CC info for 720p/1080i signals it receives over the component or HDMI input ports.

necrolop

07-17-06, 03:24 PM

Ok, I tested on my setup. Like he said Deinterlacing destroys the CC information. So far the best way seems to be outputting 480i from the DVD player to the LCD over Component, this works fine on my setup. This shouldnt be toob bad, you have an added conversion but the scaling should be okay. I cant test HDMI, but I am somewhat convinced that if you send 480i over HDMI that you will be able to keep the CC info, wether the TV sees it or not is up in the air, but could be worth a try. Or maybe someone in the forum with a player that has 480i over HDMI would be so kind as to test for you.

Blesum

07-17-06, 03:28 PM

Makes more sense to me. Thanks for dumbing it down for me. :D

Now I'm gonna call Sony...

ZZen

07-17-06, 03:31 PM

I remember that my previous Toshiba HDTV did display captions over the component inputs coming from an HD Set top box. It did this from SD channels and I think HD channels were hit and miss (sometimes garbled if at all). My current Dell HDTV (POS) doesn't show captions over the component inputs the when getting the same signal that the Toshiba did.

Another option at least for TV viewing over component or HDMI is setting the set top box to display captions. That way it overlays them onto the signal and will come through no matter what connection you use. This won't help for DVD's though. Hope you get something sorted out.

necrolop

07-17-06, 03:39 PM

There must be a DVD player that is able to put the captions on the video itself, without using the TV to do it. Seems odd to me. I know panasonics wont but maybe some others?

Blesum

07-17-06, 03:49 PM

Thanks Zzen and Necrolop. It's hopeless. Just finsihed up with Sony... Basically they said the DVD player didn't support captions and that they'd forward my complaint to the "concerned" department.

Paul > Hi Sagel... Let's see... I'm deaf so I rely heavily on captions I picked up a couple of high end LCD tvs recently and two of your HDMI dvd players and I cannot get captions to show up at all.

Paul > after discussing it at avs forums, it was concluded that with anything beyond 480i signals it is the DVD player that has to be the one to make sure the CC signal makes it to the TV and this doesn't seem to be happening with your dvd player

Paul > my old sony dvd player (480i) does it fine

Paul > what do I do?

Sagel_ > Does the DVD disc have the closed caption?

Paul > Yes it does. I also tried a number of other discs that were also captioned

Paul > My old sony dvd player works fine and is able to get CC to display on the TV with these discs at 480i

Sagel_ > Please let me know the model # of the TV.

Paul > that would be the sharp aquos 37 inch lcd... lc-40c37u ga and also the sceptre uh 42 inch....

Paul > x42gv-naga

Sagel_ > I'm sorry Paul, the DVD player does not have the closed caption feature.

Paul > I know

Sagel_ > You will not be able to view the closed caption.

Paul > obviously

Paul > that's why I'm talking with you guys

Paul > I need for Sony to start making sure that future DVD players will be able to send the CC information to the TV

Paul > like the old ones did

Paul > this is the problem here

Sagel_ > I'll forward this feedback to the concerned department.

Sagel_ > Customer input and response is invaluable in the continued support and development of our products.

Paul > please include this link: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8022316&posted=1#post8022316

Paul > Can somebody from sony let me know what Sony decided to do about this

Paul > I will have to return both TVs and both of your DVD players back to the store because of this

Paul > and I'm not happy about this

Sagel_ > I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Paul > So will somebody from Sony contact me?

Sagel_ > I suggest that you contact our Video hotline support team at 1-800-222-7669 for further assistance.

Sagel_ > Their hours of operation are: Mon-Fri 9:00AM-10:00PM / Sat-Sun 10:30AM-7:15PM EST.

Around and around we go... Wheeeee.

-Blesum -- Well, now that you guys know my real name, I might as well sign off as Paul instead. ;)

-Paul

Vashti

07-18-06, 12:12 AM

Hey Paul, take a look at this thread, posts #34 - 36:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=696821&page=2

Blesum

07-18-06, 01:11 AM

sfhub

07-18-06, 03:06 AM

Thanks Vashti!

I posted in that thread trying to get confirmation that it really is captioning and not subtitles (people sometimes think they're the same thing), and asked how it was turned on with these dvd players.

Good thing I didn't return everything tonight after all.
UPDATE: there now appears to be an upconverting Panasonic DMR-EZ47VK DVD player/recorder/VHS combo which has built-in CC decoder so it can decode line21 VBI CC and overlay on the video prior to sending over component or HDMI. See this post for more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12690647#post12690647

Well, I have the Oppo 970HD (the model referenced in that thread was the 971H)and I see no options to display CC. There is an option to display subtitle of course. It could be I'm just not looking hard enough.

Anyway, here is the manual for the 971H and I couldn't find any reference to CC or caption.
http://www.oppodigital.com/Download/OPDV971H_User_Manual.pdf

Here is the manual for the 970HD and also I couldn't find any reference to CC or caption.
http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd_manual.pdf

Here is HD-A1, also no reference to CC or caption.
http://tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-images/models/hd-a1/docs/hd-a1_om_e.pdf

BTW I think you are right in that most people think subtitles are the same as CC information. For the longest time I thought the same thing until someone pointed it out to me.

I think CC is just something that fell through the cracks. I don't think any DVD players have ever decoded CC information on line 21 VBI, as they expected all TVs would be able to decode line 21 VBI because it was mandated. In fact all TVs sold after the mandated date do decode CC on line 21 VBI.

However when we started moving to HD material, the line 21 VBI was no longer present on the HD 720p/1080i signals so the TVs were no longer getting the CC information. There was an attempt to solve this by encoding the CC information into the mpg stream and this partially resolves the situation for HD material but only if the device decoding the HD source material is able to read the CC and overlay it onto the picture.

However where CC fell through the cracks is with upconverting DVD players. These DVD players were never capable of reading the line 21 VBI CC information because they depended on the TV to decode it. This was fine when DVD players were sending 480i to the TV because line 21 VBR was passed.

The problem is when these players were converted to be upconverting players, they moved to component and HDMI/DVI interfaces and 720p/1080i over these interfaces did not have any equivalent of line 21 VBI so the CC information was just lost. It isn't being sent to the TV and even if the player wanted to, there would be no way (as in no standard) for the information to be transmitted over component/HDMI/DVI at 720p/1080i. This coupled with the fact that CC decoding has never traditionally been a function of the DVD player effectively means there is no way to display CC information.

From a design standpoint, since there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit the CC info over component/HDMI/DVI for 720p/1080i, it is impossible for a TV to decode CC for you, it never receives the info so it can never decode it.

The only way you are ever going to get the CC decoded and displayed on an upconverting DVD player connected to your TV using component/HDMI/DVI at 720p/1080i is if the DVD player is redesigned to decode CC and overlay it onto the output prior to sending it to the TV.

From a practical perspective, I don't see this is something you'd be able to convince the big conglomerates to do arguing as individuals. You'd most likely have to band together or create some noise to effect change. I don't really follow this stuff closely so I do not even know if it would be required for any manufacturer to support such decoding of CC. The requirement as far as I know was for the TVs to decode CC info on line 21 VBI, which they are all doing. The TVs cannot help they are not receiving any line 21 VBI info when you choose to upconvert your DVDs to 720p/1080i and use the component/HDMI/DVI interfaces.

The first counterargument would of course be that you could just use subtitles instead of CC. By doing so they would convert the issue into "quality" of subtitles vs CC which IMO weakens your argument that CC should work, at least in terms of public perception. You'd have a stronger argument if neither CC nor subtitled worked and as a hearing impaired person this is denying you ability to enjoy content.

The second counterargument would be you could just continue using your current 480i DVD player and not go with a fancy upconverting player.

----

Now the following is a separate test, unrelated to the upconverting DVD discussion above.

To test out my assertion that for HD material, the CC information is encoded in the mpg stream and the TV is able to decode CC for HD material that is received using the internal HDTV (QAM/ATSC) tuner I performed an experiment.

I have a Sharp Aquos LC-45GX6U HDTV. I tuned to local 1080i PBS channel (using cable TV and Sharp's QAM tuner) which I knew was transmitting CC encoded into the mpg stream. I enabled CC on the display. Sure enough the Close Caption information showed up on my display. I then switched to OTA (over-the-air) antenna and performed the same experiment using the ATSC tuner. Once again CC info was displayed.

So basically the Sharp LCD TV does in fact decode CC properly for HD signals when the information is made available to the TV. Obviously if the CC information is not made available to the TV, it will be impossible for it to decode and since there is no way (as in no standard) to transmit CC information over component/HDMI/DVI with 720p/1080i, with current infrastructure, it will never be able to receive CC info over those interconnects.

I also verified that my Motorola DCT-5100 cable Set Top Box has the ability to decode CC information located on the mpg stream and overlay onto the picture prior to sending to my Sharp display. It is located on a special setup menu where I can enable CC. It isn't on the standard config menu and it cannot be turned on using a button on the remote. I need to turn the unit off and go into the special setup menu.

So the bottom line is for HD material and for upconverted DVDs, the only device which can possibly decode CC and display it is the device which decodes the mpg stream. After the picture passes over component/HDMI/DVI the CC information is lost and cannot be recovered.

This is the way it will work for all TVs, so if you are returning the TVs because you think another TV will behave differently, don't bother, they will all behave this way. If however, you are returning the TV and are giving up on HD because the current situation is not acceptable, then that is a reasonable reason to return everything.

Your old Sony DVD player happens to "work" with CC not because the DVD is superior, but because it is connecting to your TV at 480i which has line 21 VBI information, thus CC is being passed to the TV so the TVs CC decoder can do its job. If you asked the Sony DVD player to decode CC internally and overlay onto the picture it won't be able to do that.

You could of course configure your upconverting DVD player to use 480i and then the CC information should pass to the TV and the TV should be able to decode it, but then what would be the point of getting your "upconverting" DVD player.

parki

07-18-06, 04:19 AM

A solution is to use a computer with DVI/HDMI output. Many software DVD players support closed captioning. Depending on the software & hardware involved, you may get OK to excellent picture quality out of this.

Blesum

07-18-06, 06:04 PM

Again, another amazing post, Sfhub. Thank you. :cool: No point in me having these high end TVs and DVD players then. I'll look for a replacement (and much cheaper) 480i TV and use my "old" 480i dvd player until something gets sorted out down the road, if ever.

Parki, I've used a few DVD playing softwares on my laptop - the ones I've used merely turn on subtitles and not CC. But that's an idea for down the road if nothing ever gets sorted out by the big companies.

-Paul

Blesum

11-25-06, 12:28 PM

Update: I am still trying to achieve 720p display with working captions. I recently called up Sony again and spoke with them about it. Their customer service rep said that there is indeed a Sony DVD player that will transmit the CC info over it's HDMI connection. The model is "DVP-NS90V".

I personally don't think they know what they're talking about but I hope they're right. I can't seem to find one to buy in any of the local BM retailers and I won't order it online because there's a 95% chance I will need to return it when I find that the close captioning still doesn't work...

Sucks. Off to try to find somebody with one and ask them if they can check...

-Blesum

sfhub

11-25-06, 02:53 PM

Update: I am still trying to achieve 720p display with working captions. I recently called up Sony again and spoke with them about it. Their customer service rep said that there is indeed a Sony DVD player that will transmit the CC info over it's HDMI connection. The model is "DVP-NS90V".

I personally don't think they know what they're talking about but I hope they're right.
I haven't reread the posts above yet (so I forgot our previous discussions), but it is certainly possible for the player to parse the CC info and overlay it onto the picture prior to transmitting to the TV over HDMI.

There is however no standard for the player to embed the data in the HDMI signal and have the TV's CC mechanism display the CC info.

Depending on how you like the CC data video overlay done by the player this may make anywhere from no difference to a world of difference to you.

PhilipsPhanatic

11-25-06, 05:26 PM

Subtitles are activated from the DVD menu itself if you're watching a DVD, or if you're watching a movie, they're already visible (like a silent movie or a foreign-language movie) -- right?

Is that what you mean by subtitles are not the same as CC? I've had subtitles activated on DVD's and sometimes you can duplicate it (almost word-for-word) by also activating CC.

Subtitles on a DVD would be useful if you're TV didn't do CC, that way you still get the benefits of a form of CC -- right?

Just trying to understand the differences. :)

rangeloner

11-25-06, 10:57 PM

My daughter is deaf and much prefers closed captioning to DVD subtitles. Subtitles are typically used only to display spoken dialogue whereas closed captions commonly include unspoken contextual information such as [Telephone ringing] or [Dog barking outside]. She also feels that CC text is more readable than subtitles (depends on font and color).

sfhub

11-26-06, 02:21 AM

Subtitles on a DVD would be useful if you're TV didn't do CC, that way you still get the benefits of a form of CC -- right?
Before I started conversing on this thread with OP I didn't even realize CC and Sub-titles had different information, but now I realize that most people who use this stuff prefer CC data and presentation over subtitle data and presentation.

I don't use this stuff so it isn't that important to me, but based on the description of how CC is superior, I understand why these folks prefer it over subtitles.

Blesum

12-30-06, 08:16 PM

mr2828

01-01-07, 08:58 PM

Hi, I ran into this problem today. I recently "upgraded" to a Sony PS3 to play my DVDs and Blu-ray discs, but when I tried an old Inspector Lynley SD DVD today it only has CC and no subtitles, and I couldn't figure out a way to get this to work via the HDMI connection to my Sony tv. The PS3 only appears to allow output at 480p or higher, and not 480i like my old dvd player could do in order for the CC to work. And of course the PS3 will not do the work itself of decoding and displaying the CC. Lame!

MadDad2

01-02-07, 12:18 AM

I am a bit hard of hearing and CC helps me a lot. I also was disappointed when I got a HDTV and couldn't get CC on TV channels. I found I have to turn it on in the HD Cable box. I have the Motorola 3416. To access the proper menu I have to have the TV and the 3416 on. Power off the 3416 and immediately hit the menu button. This will bring up a B&W screen. By arrowing down I can enable CC. under that are a lot of options you can set. I set the font size to small. the lettering to white with a black drop shadow, and a transparent background. It's great. Small, but readable text that is fairly non intrusive. Foe DVD's , yeah I have to use the subtitles. When the current DVD player dies I'll check around for one that hopefully does CC in hi def, but I won't buy anything Sony because of that root kit garbage they pulled with their music CD's.

al3925i

03-27-07, 03:58 PM

!@#$! I'm screwed! This thread confirms the CC problem especially with DVDs at 720/1080 whatever. I bought my first HDTV which is a 37" Sharp Aquos from Costco. The best it can do is to provide CC over component at 480i only. What's worse is that I ordered a bigger Samsung 4051 online and got it to replace the first before I realized all this.

No way will I settle for lowly DVD subtitles and almost useless HDTV. :(

avs2099

05-31-07, 01:45 PM

I was not aware of this thread and started another one in DVD players

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=846346

The results were similarly discouraging though.

I also pestered via phone/email number of DVD player manufactures [Toshiba/Samsung/Sony/RCA/Oppo/Kiss/Yamaha/Panasonic/Helios/I apologize if I missed anyone], FCC, TEITAC and NCI in order for the issue to gain more visibility.

Unfortunately no one seems to be able/willing to help. Short of asking everyone to start calling DVD manufactures I do not know what else can be done.

The email from NCI described the situation as "cruel":

"Note that the FCC mandate for captioning covers "broadcast only".
Thus, the decoders are built into the tuners of the TV receivers. All
other inputs on these sets and monitors alike bypass the tuner so they
do not fall under the FCC mandate. It is cruel and hopefully the
manufactures and Standards committees will do the right thing in the end
but that is how the law fits for now. "

At this point I am hoping that one of the engineers working for the software based players (KISS/Helios) will put support for closed captions as an easter egg, as the official path does not seem to lead anywhere.

mdeming22

06-29-07, 08:24 PM

tombaker

07-03-07, 12:38 AM

I am using an HDTV with my cable company's HD box. Closed captioning was not available via the TV menu, but I was able to activate it from the cable box's menu. It's a Motorola DCT6416III. The box's menu is accessed by pressing the "menu" button on the remote when the box is turned off.

Closed captioning is not just for the deaf....my old mom, can follow along the plots much more if she is reading the text vs only listening to it. And this is true not just for the British stuff. Supposedly reading along is keeping more neurons active too

On my Samsung I am surprised how often on HD the signal does not have the CC....it says NOT AVAILABLE, on content that normally would.

Yes my cable box has its own CC options....but this is a major failing of the new HD system....this CC was handled about 15 years ago....hard to believe they screwed it up.

wsfanatic

07-03-07, 02:09 AM

As you have probably found out by now, CC features are now almost exclusively designed for broadcast signals, not DVDs. While CC and subtitles are different, they are similar enough for 99% of consumers, therefore, I wouldn't expect much to change in the future. The DVPNS90V can be easily found online, however, very few B&Ms carry that model.

avs2099

07-04-07, 12:28 AM

As you have probably found out by now, CC features are now almost exclusively designed for broadcast signals, not DVDs.

Huh ?! What makes you say this ? Closed Captions on DVDs worked perfectly fine until we switched to digital connections.

The DVPNS90V can be easily found online, however, very few B&Ms carry that model.

DVPNS90V ? How is this model related to the problem discussed on this thread ?

wsfanatic

07-04-07, 10:54 AM

avs2099

07-04-07, 08:06 PM

avs2099, If you would you would so kindly read the entire thread rather than the last couple replies, my post would make perfect sense.

you want me to go back more than one page ? ;-)

Seriously though, DVPNS90V was a name sony support droll threw at blesum to get him off his back ..... It bears no connection to the problem at hand. Its manual does not even mention the term closed caption - http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=DVPNS90V&LOC=3

avs2099

08-27-07, 04:49 AM

Wikipedia entry for HDMI was updated in May'2007 to make a note of closed caption problems:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Multimedia_Interface#Closed_captioning_problems

The section ends with:

"Of course, it is possible that a future enhancement of the HDMI Specification may encompass closed caption transport."

Not holding my breath .....

N9JIG

11-17-07, 12:09 AM

My wife is deaf, and I have grown accustomed to watching TV with captions. We have entered the HDTV lifestyle and have had mixed results. Here is what we have discovered:

DVD's:
The Subtitles are usually preferable by us, except they usually do not display words to music, sound effects or incidental sounds. True CC usually does show words to music etc. I suspect this is most likely due to licensing requirements. For some reason the DVD Subtitles are occasionally unreadable on some DVD's, forcing us to use CC instead. We have actually connected the DVD player to the TV with both an "S" Video cable (for watching with CC) and HDMI (for watching with subtitles).

Cable Box:
We have found that the root level menus on typical Motorola Digital cable boxes do have a CC option that you can turn on and off. While this works on most channels, including digital channels, it is difficult to turn on and off so can be annoying even to my deaf wife when watching sports or other shows that captioning isn't desired. This does seem to be the only way to get CC on HDTV channels thru the box.

Basic Cable and Over The Air/Antenna (OTA):
Our HDTV's seem to work fine with CC over the air or with basic cable, even on digital channels. Digital channel CC seems to be delayed a second or 2 longer than analog for some reason. (Digital signals have a bit of latency anyway due to decoding issues.)

segarolow

11-18-07, 10:05 PM

segarolow

11-18-07, 10:23 PM

Well people the DVD player people have got it going at LAST! Yup! they got it finaly!
Yes Sir you can get a DVD player with a De-Coder in it now! And you can use the
Closed Caption with the HDMI cable....... About time!!!!!!!

reddscott22

11-23-07, 05:22 PM

sfhub

11-23-07, 06:29 PM

I just got an Olevia LCD and switched my Comcast box to an HD box [Comcast finally started giving HDMI cables with the box; last year they would not]. Using the HDMI we couldn't get cc. Thanks to this thread, I am using the cable box's cc. It seems to work ok, but some of the commercials aren't in cc. My fiance' is hearing impaired, but I havegrown acustomed to reading the cc as I watch. Though sometimes it does get in the way of some juicy scenes.
I'm glad you are seeing CC.

However I wouldn't describe it as CC "working" over HDMI.

Rather it is more accurate to say your source device has a builtin CC decoder and it is overlaying the CC text information on the picture prior to sending the picture to your display over HDMI.

The reason I make that distinction is because the earlier problem described had to do with the source device *not* having a CC decoder. With 480i it was able to work by using the TV's internal CC decoder (sending the CC info over the wire). Once the person switched to HDMI, then there was no way to send that CC information to the TV.

So the solution is to find source devices, STBs, DVDs, etc. that have CC decoders builtin. Actually I think all STBs from Motorola and SA have CC decoders builtin so I don't think it was really a problem before.

It was the DVD players that were the main issue because prior to HDMI, they just passed through the CC information to the TV over the interconnect and piggybacked on the TV's internal CC decoder.

avs2099

11-24-07, 01:16 PM

There are many new DVD players out now that have a De-Coder in them to De-code
the Closed Caption. Look good on the net.... Look under HDMI DVD players with
Closed Caption....You will find them for about $124.00 up.... I am still tryingto find one
that is a (5) disc DVD player that has a de-coder in it fortheclosed Caption...

Could you provide us with model numbers so we know what you are talking about ?
Based on my experience your post sounds too good to be true.

segarolow

11-25-07, 12:59 AM

Hello All,

I have Time WarnerCable... I have a DVR Box from them with a HDMI cable set up.
My HD TV has a HDMI set up also... So I set the HDMI cable up with my TV and all.
The Closed CAption comes out fine, but the TV Pitcher jumps about 6 Incher to the left
when I use the HDMI Cable. Ant one have this problem????
Thanks...
Dan

avs2099

11-25-07, 03:03 AM

gholmes1936

11-30-07, 08:49 PM

avs2099

12-04-07, 02:41 PM

I have a Toshiba 32 inch LCD HDTV a nd am using Time Warner with a HD cable box and connected with an HDMI cable and cannot get CC at all.

Please stay on topic. This thread is about the (im)possibility of getting Closed Captions from DVDs via HDMI. We do not care about cable boxen here.

Dixie Flatline

12-06-07, 01:37 PM

This is simply untrue. No product like this exists on the market today.

That's what I would have thought, but I did a little searching and turned up a surprise: the Yamaha DVD-S659 (http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=451768&CTID=5001800&ATRID=1020&DETYP=ATTRIBUTE). The product page doesn't say anything about CC, but looking at the manual (http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/av/english/dvd/DVD-S659_e.pdf) turns up a setting (on p.30, under "Video Settings") for "Closed caption" that can be set to on or off. The accompanying language is a little ambiguous, though:

"Before you select this function, please ensure that the disc contains closed caption information and your TV set also supports this function."

Read literally, that suggests that the TV is still required to decode (and therefore) receive the CC information in the video signal. However, if that's the case, why have a setting for it, since virtually all DVD players pass the line 21 CC's by default when outputting 480i? This seems to suggest that the player actually does have a CC decoder, and the bit I quoted above is a boilerplate warning that got cut-and-pasted in from somewhere else.

The DVD-S661 also offers the same option in its manual, and there may be other Yamaha players that do as well. Does anyone have one of these players and want to give it a try to see if it really can decode CC's and overlay them on an HDMI output signal?

PS: If you're looking for Yamaha manuals, the US site demands registration before you can view them. However, the global manual download page (http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/index.php) is much handier.

PPS: What the heck, I seem to be on a roll here. There's a discussion here (http://www.film-talk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43613) where somebody with another Yamaha model of DVD player did get CC's to appear in a similar situation when he turned on the option in the player. This looks promising.

avs2099

12-07-07, 02:26 PM

I had an email conversation with Yamaha back in May'07. They initially said all of their players will do CC over HDMI then they changed it to none. I think the wording in the manual is responsible for the confusion. The option in the DVD player menu is to enable/disable generation of line 21 captions via S-Video/composite output.

Here is the email from Yamaha support:

From supportreply@yamaha.com Fri Jun 1 08:50:50 2007
Return-Path: <supportreply@yamaha.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:49:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Yamaha Support <supportreply@yamaha.com>
Subject: RE: Re: Yamaha Electronics Support Case #00447930 [ [ ref:00D3F1z.50033E3Rc:ref ]

I have researched the problem and there are no closed caption spec's for HDMI. So none of the players will support HDMI closed caption.

--------------- Original Message ---------------
To: supportreply@yamaha.com
Subject: Re: Yamaha Electronics Support Case #00447930 [ ref:00D3F1z.50033E3Rc:ref ]

On Thu, May 31, 2007 at 01:54:59PM +0000, Yamaha Support wrote:
> All of our HDMI DVD players will show closed caption.

Could you double check ? I am talking about line 21 captions.
There is a difference between closed captions and subtitles.
Please check also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_captioning#DVD

>
>
> Best Regards,
> The Yamaha Customer Support Team
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> DVD, CD players [single and changers]
> Model:
> I am looking for a DVD player able to show closed captions when using HDMI to connect to the display.
>
--

Dixie Flatline

12-07-07, 06:43 PM

avs2099

12-07-07, 07:11 PM

PPS: What the heck, I seem to be on a roll here. There's a discussion here (http://www.film-talk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=43613) where somebody with another Yamaha model of DVD player did get CC's to appear in a similar situation when he turned on the option in the player. This looks promising.

The person reporting "success" is using HTR-6030 which has no HDMI connections:
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=552126
He must be passing S-Video or composite through the receiver (do not ask me why is he doing this)

avs2099

12-07-07, 10:26 PM

Well, shoot. What would they be generating the line 21 captions from? DVD subtitles are stored as bitmaps, not text, so there's really no source for the text to create the captions. All I can think is that it would determine whether to suppress the captions already embedded in the 480i video...

Line 21 captions are kept on DVDs in User Data fields in the mpeg stream.
The encoding is done according to EIA-608 standard ( almost the same as ASCII). The max speed of the CC stream is about 60 chars per sec. ( 1 per half frame displayed at 59.97Hz in NTSC)

What is baffling me is the inability of the DVD player makers to read that data and display it on the screen. They can generate characters on the screen. They also can read mpegs. What seems to be the problem ? :mad:

In the past someone tried to explain this to me in the Oppo thread, but I think he over engineered the process:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10509337&postcount=3298

brettcoon

12-16-07, 08:27 PM

What is baffling me is the inability of the DVD player makers to read that data and display it on the screen. They can generate characters on the screen. They also can read mpegs. What seems to be the problem ? :mad:

In the past someone tried to explain this to me in the Oppo thread, but I think he over engineered the process:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10509337&postcount=3298

I think the bottom line is that it shouldn't be hard for a DVD player to do this properly, but it's not free, either. I suspect it could actually be done with no extra hardware, since DVD players already must extract the CC info to properly encode it in the output video signal, and they have character generators and overlay capabilities for their on-screen menus. But it would require additional firmware, and all the costs that go along with that (debug, support, documentation). Given the paper-thin margins in the DVD player market, I'm not too surprised manufacturers haven't voluntarily taken on this extra complexity. They need to be convinced they'll sell more players if they do it.

brettcoon

12-16-07, 08:45 PM

Yeah, what Rangecloner said.

I've been a complete slacker and have not looked much further into the Sony NS90V. Instead I think I'm going to buy the Xbox HD-DVD player tomorrow, thinking that this will solve my problems. I mean, the information is transmitted to the TV via component (no hdmi) so the captioning information should remain intact, right?

I just upgraded my home theater to HD, and discovered to my horror that captions are no longer possible. My wife speaks English as a second language, so she finds the captions indispensable for TV shows, including TV-on-DVD such as the "Soprano's" episodes we've been watching.

After reading this thread and a couple others, I'm now thinking my best hope may lie in a Media PC. PC-based DVD software, e.g. WinDVD, can display closed captions as subtitles. So in the short term, I can just playback DVDs from my notebook PC to get captions displayed properly. Longer term, I'm looking into the so-called Media PCs, which are PCs with remote controls, mounted in horizontal cases that look like normal audio equipment. I believe many have graphics cards that can output hi-def over HDMI, and since they're designed to drive monitors, not tuners, they ought to have full caption support. Since Media PCs typically have DVR functionality, many should have video inputs, so I'm hoping I could also use a Media PC to extract and overlay captions from a non-DVD SD source, such as my Tivo.

We shall see. Anyone else have success on the captioning front with a PC?

-Brett

yelgrun

12-23-07, 04:17 PM

Recently, I got HDTV, figured out which signal inputs that closed caption will function in. When I connected with just a HDMI cable from HDTV to DVR, set HDTV's input to HDMI1, that input doesn't have closed caption function or feature, same for HDMI2 input using with just a HDMI cable from HDTV to DVD recorder/player. So, I hooked up DVR with tuner cable to HDTV, set input to cable, not air, bingo I get closed caption. The closed caption do work on DVD when it hooked up with component cables between DVD recorder/player to HDTV, with HDTV's input set to rear1 or video1. I believe closed caption will also work with S-Video input and cable too, but I was told component input/cables are better. Basically, HDMI doesn't have encoder or decoder to make closed caption to work through any HDMI inputs and HDMI cables doesn't have a line or wire that carries closed caption datas through yet, unless they already designed one recently, I don't know. When they designed HDMI, they were so focus on high quality picture and audio, but they didn't bother to consider about closed caption or people with hearing impaired for that matter either. Apparently, HDMI isn't for people who needing the closed caption, oh well talk about ignorants if they can be sued base on 1992's law.

Most, if not all DVD players/recorders doesn't have closed caption feature, but they do have subtitle feature. Closed captions and subtitles are not the same thing. Before they passed 1992 law, people with hearing impaired had to buy closed caption box and hook it up to their televisions. Subtitle functions are already encoded inside DVD players/recorders to read subtitle texts that are already on DVDs, but not all DVD movies have subtitles of course....Closed captions are basically for people with hearing impaired or hard hearing while subtitles were meant to translate languages into another. Now, more DVD movies do have English subtitles for hearing impaired, but most time, they didn't interpret music sounds, phone/doorbell ringing, footsteps, growling, etc into texts. We can read them on closed captions, even on live broadcast news, shows, etc while subtitle cannot. Also not all shows, stations, or news always have somebody there typing & interpreting every sounds into closed captions. At least, things are improving for hearing impaired, but they sure did a huge step back on HDMI for hearing impaired, unless they already devised one for both inputs and cables recently that I didn't know yet.

freddb

12-24-07, 09:44 PM

I just joined avs after googling why there was no cc using hdmi, from what I have read I am outraged to the point that veins are popping out of my neck.

I am by no means a techie person, I still view my 32" crt tv and of course know I will have to upgrade to all this lcd, hdtv using hdmi's etc. I do know a little about those things by reading mags or info on the net and of course talking to people in stores like best buy or circuitcity.

I have two deaf children, one is 21 and the other 20, after finding out my first was deaf my wife and I went out of our way to give them whatever capabilities they were lacking in hearing, and closed captions are one of the biggest if not the biggest, we bought cc boxes for every tv in the house, and they were not cheap but we didn't care, we wanted to give our kids every advantage and did, because of the cc boxes my kids were able to learn how to read very quickly, and what most hearing people don't know many deaf people do not write or sign exact english, hearing people many times mis-interpret a deaf persons writing as something wrong with them because they usually write as they sign in ASL, (American Sign Language), its an abbreviated language, most deaf people use ASL, and so do my kids, but because of closed captioning they also know how to sign and write in exact english like the hearing world does, so the importance of cc is a no brainier.

To clarify the difference between subtitles and cc, the only good thing I can say about subtitles is it beats a blank, if you had the option to chose you would never chose subtitles, of course with my 32" crt tv we always watched widescreen before it even became a fad, I even bought widescreen vhs tapes before dvd's came out, I always knew I loved to watch the movie as it was intended at the movies, watching movies on a full screen you lose at least 30% of the picture and no the black bars never bothered me, actually the black bars are nice because mostly cc lays on the bottom of the screen on the bottom black bar, very easy to read and the cc didn't interfere with the picture, not like subtitles, subtitles interfere with the picture all the time and like many said miss a lot like sounds etc. and more, and worse some subtitles are small and are not even readable, and if the movie display much lighted color the white titles can't even be illegible, they just disappear in the background which is so annoying, I have also noticed that many dvd's now are dropping cc and just carrying subtitles, maybe because of the hdtv, hdmi etc situation, who knows the real reason.

I helped my neighbor just last week in purchasing a samsung 32 lcd hdtv because he knew nothing of the new technology of today's tv, I know a little, he also bought a samsung dvd player with hdmi outputs, he also called verizon and purchased hd cable, yes the picture was gorgeous, everything was going just fine till we wanted to turn on cc, none, no cc with dvd's, and none watching broadcast tv, gone, zilch, I went nuts trying to figure it out, finally read in the samsung manual, cannot get cc using component or hdmi cables, it doesn't even work using the av mode, my friend was just as upset as I was, of course he doesn't need cc but knows I do because as I got older my hearing also went down hill, I love cc, we told the verizon people to get their butt down to us asap, they came, could not figure it out, knew nothing about it, the verizon guy called the main office and they knew nothing about it, that's par, of course if you are not deaf or have somebody in a family that is why care right. Well it seems the poor deaf community is getting shafted again, and I'll be dammed if I gonna stand by and do nothing, one complaint will not solve this, complaint in huge numbers will.

Does anybody remember how and why it became law, for any tv 13" or over came about? it was when Reagan himself started to lose his hearing when it became law, yeah right after a big time politician starts to lose his hearing things got done, he noticed real quick it was no fun missing words either in person or tv etc. turn of the sound on your tv and try watching a show and see how you like it.

How these big time tv, lcd, dvd, hdtv cable companies etc. are getting away with this I have no idea, I am always on top of things with the deaf community because of my children, I cannot believe this is the first time I am finding out about this, but I am not letting it go, my butt is gonna be at my senators office right after this holiday, and I will not be by myself, and I will be screaming.

mdmangus

12-27-07, 02:49 PM

I am with freddb and this is unbelievable.

My wife is deaf and needs CC to enjoy the content. We were happy on our Sony 32" Wega, but over the holidays we saw Best Buy have a special on a Panasonic Plasma 42" TV and decided to make the purchase. After the purchase we needed to get HD content and I installed an OTA antenna and dropped our Dish Network service. OTA in our area is crystal clear with CC on pretty much all the programs. I’ve noticed commercials do not have much CC. I’m talking about the High Definition channels that are broadcasted.

We loved the DVR service from the Dish service and so I had to have a way to record our shows. After much reviews I settled on the Phillips dvdr3575h that Walmart carries for $299. The DVD-R also has a built in hard drive that gives that pause / record live TV feel. The device will pass digital CC when watching live TV, but will only record analog CC from my experience so far. I have the DVD-R connected through Component cables versus HDMI. Using Progressive scan on the device will not output the analog CC from the recorded shows. It is extremely annoying and for me to view those recorded shows with closed caption I had to use S-Video out directly into another source on the TV. We use the S-Video when watching analog CC from our recorded shows. The only other option would be to turn of progressive which would down convert the content to 480i I guess. That is not to appealing. If you wanted to watch DVD’s that have CC result in the same as above and pretty much have to turn off progressive to get the closed caption or you will have to use subtitles. My wife prefers CC like others in this thread over using the subtitles in DVD’s.

Many devices like a stereo receiver will up convert your source to component or HDMI if you used that cable when connecting it to the TV. This will cause any analog CC to not show.

It is unbelievable and I’m currently stuck between analog and digital with our current path to High Definition.

I’m sure many more will get on this band wagon now that walmart and many retailers are pushing LCD or other High definition televisions at an affordable price. This issue will only get bigger and hopefully we will see change so everyone can enjoy the highest available format with closed captions.

Hopefully they will standardize on something soon. I agree with everyone else that this should have been looked at from the beginning. I don’t have HD DVD or Blu-ray, but hopefully they will improve on CC or subtitles for that content.

wyndsayl

12-30-07, 11:57 AM

I just found this out myself. It's unbelievable.

CC isn't only for DVD content which is what some people seem to think. I use CC all the time, and I can hear fine. I find sound quality to be lacking these days, special effects and ads get more sound, characters actually talking end up too quiet end and you can't hear them unless you turn the tv way up. I don't like the TV loud. I like CC on stuff I record as well. I have a panasonic hddr which records and encodes CC just fine. I like CC on stuff I watch. I just got an HDTV and a HD box from comcast hooked up with HDMI to find out CC is gone. I'll have to try other connections but it's ridiculous.

BBC America advertises the use of CC all the time because of the accents and that actually is how people in my family started using CC, watching all the British mysteries on PBS years ago. Between sound quality, slang and accents, it can be hard to understand at times.

I wouldn't want to leave it up to a device to display it on top of the picture because then recording from one device to another would have it permanently there. It should be something you can turn on and off. It should be part of the stream like it has always been.

Has anyone complained to the FCC? That is the only way anytihng will change. It has to be forced. There is no technological reason why the data stream can't be maintained regardless of upconverting or downconverting. And since they are so determined to switch people over it's something they should address. They have been dealing with all the other issues that have come up as companies have tried to do less than they used to, I don't see why this would be any different. I would think with all the disability acts it would be required anyways.

avs2099

12-30-07, 01:24 PM

I just found this out myself. It's unbelievable.

Has anyone complained to the FCC? That is the only way anytihng will change. It has to be forced. There is no technological reason why the data stream can't be maintained regardless of upconverting or downconverting. And since they are so determined to switch people over it's something they should address. They have been dealing with all the other issues that have come up as companies have tried to do less than they used to, I don't see why this would be any different. I would think with all the disability acts it would be required anyways.

I tried contacting FCC ( see post #39 in this thread ) in May'2007 but the answer was "The FCC does not regulate captioning of home videos, DVDs, or video games."

Here is a copy of the email I received:

From: FCCInfo@fcc.gov
Reply-To: FCCInfo@fcc.gov
Subject: CIMS00000386038 - Closed Captioning, DVDs and HDTV
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 16:27:37 -0400 (EDT)
Message-Id: <5120670.1179347257631.JavaMail.SYSTEM@P2PAPP02>
From FCCINFO@fcc.gov Wed May 16 15:50:19 2007

You are receiving this email in response to your inquiry to the FCC.

Thank you for contacting the FCC Consumer Center.

The FCC does not regulate captioning of home videos, DVDs, or video games.

Rep Number : TSR41
Mailout Attachment Name : FACTSHEET50.PDF (see attachment <FACTSHEET50.PDF>)

brettcoon

01-02-08, 08:52 PM

I was able to solve my CC problem by purchasing a Panasonic DMR-EZ47VK (http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Video/DVD-Recorders-Players/DVD-Recorders/model.DMR-EZ47VK) DVD recorder. This model has a built-in ATSC HDTV tuner, HDMI output, and 1080p upsampling support. It also happens to have a VCR built in, so if you don't need that particular feature you might prefer the similar (I think) DMR-EZ27K.

This DVD recorder has a built-in CC decoder, with support for controlling the size, font, color, and background of the displayed captions. It overlays the captions on the output image, so you can see the resulting captioned video on a display connected via either HDMI or component (I think the S-video and composite outputs would work, too).

The important thing for me is that this unit can not only display DVD captions, but it can also decode captions from an input analog video source and overlay the captions on the output video signal.

For my setup, I have an Onkyo TX-SR875 receiver driving a Panasonic commercial plasma screen. I connected the DMR-EZ47VK to the VCR input/output connections on the receiver. For the receiver-to-EZ47VK connections, I'm currently using S-video and analog stereo audio connections. The DMR-EZ47VK has both HDMI and analog video outputs. I have the HDMI output feeding back into the receiver (for both audio and video), while the component video output goes directly to my plasma screen. I'm pretty sure it would also work to connect the HDMI output of the DMR-EZ47VK to the second HDMI input on my plasma screen, rather than using component, but I haven't tried that yet.

If I want to watch a DVD with captions, I can just play the DVD from the DMR-EZ47VK through the receiver normally. The captions work fine.

If I want to watch TV with captions, things are a bit trickier. My TV tuner is actually a standard-definition DirecTV TiVo DVR with S-Video outputs. So I select the DVR on my receiver, causing the receiver to play the audio while sending the video signal out on both the HDMI cable to my plasma display and to the DMR-EZ47VK via the VCR out S-video connection. The DMR-EZ47VK then decodes the captions and outputs captioned video on its HDMI and component cables. To see the captions, I have to select the component video input on the plasma screen. My Onkyo receiver doesn't allow me to route one video source to the VCR while routing another source to the screen, which is why I have to select the DMR-EZ47VK directly via the plasma screen inputs. It's possible other receivers let you watch one source while recording another. One possible gotcha is that the DMR-EZ47VK didn't start passing video through until I put a recordable VHS tape into the VCR. I didn't have to actually record anything, but my guess is that the DMR-EZ47VK doesn't start looking at the input video ports until you put some sort of recordable media in. It's possible there's another way to get it into video pass-through mode, but this is what worked for me.

Ironically, the real urgency in finding this solution was my desire to finish "The Sopranos" DVDs, where my wife relies on captions (we're on season 4). The last episode we watched lacked subtitles but had captions. After getting captions working, I discovered that the current DVD actually has both captions and subtitles! It seems subtitles were added in season 4. Oh well, I needed to get captions working, anyway, and now I have an HDTV tuner, too.

Hope this helps bring captioning joy to other home theaters!

-Brett

Sam Ontario

01-04-08, 10:30 AM

You seem miss the point.

Now try this: Have a DVD movie played in your EZ47VK and connect your HDMI from your EZ47VK to your Panasonic HDMI input and see if you get the cc and let us know if you get cc, not subtitles, thanks.

avs2099

01-05-08, 01:43 AM

It looks like the quest for captions over HDMI is over thanks to brettcoon.

I just brought home EZ47VK from local BestBuy and can verify that brettcoon was right. I played "The Stunt Man" DVD which has only CC, no subtitles.
I was able to see CC in 1080p mode via HDMI.

I also called Panasonic two days ago to see if they can find a plain DVD player which has the same feature as EZ47VK ( I am not interested in DVD recording nor TV tuner), but they need to do some investigation and get back to me.

For the record two older Toshiba models SD-3950 and SD-3960 with 480p over component also had the ability to decode captions.
Not sure why Toshiba decided to drop this feature from newer models.

You seem miss the point.

Now try this: Have a DVD movie played in your EZ47VK and connect your HDMI from your EZ47VK to your Panasonic HDMI input and see if you get the cc and let us know if you get cc, not subtitles, thanks.

Sam Ontario

01-07-08, 07:08 AM

Thanks. Let us know what Panasonic DVD Player Models have the cc with HDMI, thanks.

afiggatt

01-07-08, 10:51 AM

I helped my neighbor just last week in purchasing a samsung 32 lcd hdtv because he knew nothing of the new technology of today's tv, I know a little, he also bought a samsung dvd player with hdmi outputs, he also called verizon and purchased hd cable, yes the picture was gorgeous, everything was going just fine till we wanted to turn on cc, none, no cc with dvd's, and none watching broadcast tv, gone, zilch, I went nuts trying to figure it out, finally read in the samsung manual, cannot get cc using component or hdmi cables, it doesn't even work using the av mode, my friend was just as upset as I was, of course he doesn't need cc but knows I do because as I got older my hearing also went down hill, I love cc, we told the verizon people to get their butt down to us asap, they came, could not figure it out, knew nothing about it,
I am sad, but not surprised about the total lack of understanding on Verizon's part about how to turn on cc for the digital era. There are many people who think that cc is always turned on in the TV and that is NO LONGER CORRECT! I have Verizon Fios TV and I get closed captions for the SD and almost all of the HD channels. The key is that in the digital setup with a STB or DVR, the STB or DVR generates the closed captions for the picture. The closed captioning must be turned on at the STB. If you have the Motorola 6416 DVR, you turn the DVR off, press menu to access the setup menu. If you have the new Fios IMG software, you press Select and then Menu to access the setup menu. To get consistent captioning, set the 4:3 override output to 480p.

The bottom line is for cable or satellite or Over The Air broadcast reception using a STB that the cc must be turned on at the STB. We need to tell people this every time they ask for help here in all the different forums.

Way too many people are totally confused or in the dark about how CC works for HDMI or component hook-ups for digital TVs. I agree the lack of cc support for most DVD players via HDMI or component output is a major problem that should be fixed. The only way I can see this happening is if the FCC requires it. They have regulatory authority over STBs, they should be able to require that DVD players support CC via HDMI. The only way the FCC would move on this is if they get political pressure from the appropriate public interest groups.

whad-ya-say?

01-07-08, 02:25 PM

Wow, sad to read all of this but glad i'm not the only one! Hard of hearing at 42, just got Sony 1080 46"tv, Comcast DVR, Sony DVD player. (I'm no techie so bear with me) Before home theater was set up, had DVR box connected direct to TV via the red/yellow/etc. cords (don't say i didn't warn you!). CC worked just fine. got home theater installed yesterday and NO CC. didn't know this was an issue so didn't think to check it before they left.

They did use HDMI cords, sounds like that is the problem....also sounds like step 1 for me should be checking my DVR box to see if there is menu option for CC? If that doesn't work......then what? back to the "old" cords straight to the tv? or what?

Sure thought we were making progress with the CC ruling of the past. I had NO IDEA this would not apply to HD tvs!!!!!!

Please give me any input you have. Many of you sure know a lot more about this than i do. I'm looking to learn or else I'm going to throw a rock through this nice new tv!!!!

Thanks!

avs2099

01-07-08, 02:49 PM

Shape

01-07-08, 04:17 PM

avs2099

01-07-08, 04:30 PM

I haven't read this entire thread just yet. But I believe that my Windows Media Center home theater PC can indeed output closed captions while playing a DVD in Media Center. I haven't tried it in a while, however.

It also has some of the nicest rendered closed captioning I have seen.

It is true that most software DVD players can render closed captions.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, they are severely lacking in the video processing department, so do not expect great picture quality when watching DVDs on your HTPC.
To see what I am taking about get the "Benchmark DVD" from HQV Silicon Optix and run some of their test. The results are pretty sad.
If you have a decent scaler in your TV, you are better off connecting your DVD player via composite/S-Video to get captions than using HTPC.

This thread has some more info : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=752093

Phil Tomaskovic

01-07-08, 04:53 PM

I know that on my Panasonic dvd-recorder that if I am playing back recorded tv shows, the tv will show closed captions if I use a composite or s-video connection from the dvd recorder to the tv, but if I use hdmi or component there is no CC.

avs2099

01-07-08, 05:08 PM

Shape

01-07-08, 06:05 PM

It is true that most software DVD players can render closed captions.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, they are severely lacking in the video processing department, so do not expect great picture quality when watching DVDs on your HTPC.

That's not true at all. Look up the ffdshow DirectShow filter for Windows. In fact, here is a fantastic thread on it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719041 Download the pictures in that thread.

FFDShow can provide upscaling that is far superior to any upscaling by a dedicated hardware upscaler in a standalone DVD player.

I don't worry much about HQV because I don't watch much material with bad cadence or screwed up fields. For that matter, I don't watch much interlaced material. That is when HQV matters.

However, NVidia's purevideo technology actually does a good job at the HQV test.

brettcoon

01-07-08, 10:27 PM

Panasonic just called me back and they told me none of their DVD players can show captions over HDMI. You have to buy a recorder (EZ47VK/EZ27K) if you want to see captions.

I asked them to attach a feature request for it to my support case - 24933614.
If someone would like to express their interest in CC over HDMI to Panasonic feel free to reference this number.

I'm really happy my DVD recorder discovery has been helpful to others. I did some more research on DVD recorders over the weekend, and I read that apparently all DVD recorders will be required to handle captions once analog TV broadcasts end. And given the lack of captioning support in HDMI, I believe the only way a DVD recorder can "handle" captions is by displaying them directly on the output video signal. So my impression is that soon most or all DVD recorders will have this capability. Panasonic seems to be the first with this feature, but it should be much more widespread later this year.

I also am a little less impressed with the EZ47VK now that I've used it more. First, the good news is that it does do a very nice job of decoding and displaying captions for both DVDs and standard-definition video from an external source (my receiver in this case). It has configuration settings for the captions, and I found that yellow text on a semi-transparent black background is very clear and readable for me. But the bad news is that the ATSC (hi-def) tuner it includes will only output 480p video. So it doesn't actually make a very good standalone HDTV tuner. I'm also a little frustrated by its slow startup times and awkward remote.

So anyone thinking of buying one of these recorders for captions should keep in mind that more models with this feature may be coming to the market soon. I may end up returning mine and waiting for one with full HDTV output, since my original motivation, captions for "The Sopranos", has been eliminated by the inclusion of subtitles in Season Four and (I think) onwards.

-Brett

afiggatt

01-08-08, 12:17 AM

Wow, sad to read all of this but glad i'm not the only one! Hard of hearing at 42, just got Sony 1080 46"tv, Comcast DVR, Sony DVD player. (I'm no techie so bear with me) Before home theater was set up, had DVR box connected direct to TV via the red/yellow/etc. cords (don't say i didn't warn you!). CC worked just fine. got home theater installed yesterday and NO CC. didn't know this was an issue so didn't think to check it before they left.

They did use HDMI cords, sounds like that is the problem....also sounds like step 1 for me should be checking my DVR box to see if there is menu option for CC? If that doesn't work......then what? back to the "old" cords straight to the tv? or what?
There is a CC option for the digital cable STB and DVR. No ifs, no buts. Depending on your Comcast franchise area, you will get either a Motorola or Scientific Atlanta STB or DVR. Scientific Atlanta boxes allow you to turn on or off the cc in normal operation. If you have a Motorola DVR, then check this webpage: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_use_a_Motorola_DVR/Setup. I have the Motorola QIP 6416 DVR with Verizon Fios and have the captions set to small text, red color, transparent background, user setting.

The amount of closed captioning has improved a great deal over the past several years for HD channels. However, cc is still hit or miss for UniversalHD and several other of the niche HD channels.

Docwiz

01-09-08, 04:31 AM

Makes more sense to me. Thanks for dumbing it down for me. :D

Now I'm gonna call Sony...

My wife is hearing impaired and with the DVD upscaling to 720p we lose the CC, however she does not mind it because you can just turn on the Titling on the DVD and that works better. :)

I don't see the problem.

Vaporware

01-09-08, 10:10 AM

Don't forget if you're using the Motorola (Comcast DVR and Cable box) when you set up the CC, make sure to switch to USER SETTINGS instead of DEFAULT. Otherwise it always showed up white text on black background instead of my choice of text size, color and transparency.

Johnny JPA

01-09-08, 04:45 PM

Here's what I've found in my research. It seems to me to be in the progressive scan rather than just the HDMI (perhaps HDMI does only progressive). I have a Philips 47" 1080p HDTV and Philips DVD player that upconverts to 1080p. The DVD player has HDMI and component outputs. If I use the component output cables and turn progressive scan off on the DVD player menu, I get normal CC on the TV, though I suppose I am sacrificing some picture quality for it. Using HDMI, I can't even get to the option to turn off progressive scan. And I have to unplug the HDMI cable from the player even if I am not using it.
This has me wondering if a true high def DVD player outputting 1080i (not p) via component cables could also get CC. This is very important to me as I am near to buying some kind of hi def DVD player.

I just discovered this thread. I've been very frustrated with my HDTV purchase for this reason. I love the picture but also love CC on DVDs. I can manage fine with subtitles but am finding several DVDs that have subtitles just for translating to foreign languages, and say CC available, meaning it has to be turned on at the TV. I'm not deaf but get frustrated at all the speaking that I just can't understand, either because of accents (British mostly) or just unclear speaking.

As far as TV CC, on my Comcast SA HD DVR, I can turn on CC but have to go through a couple menus so it's inconvenient to turn on and off quickly, like when I want to do a quick rewind and turn on CC for something I couldn't understand. Also the CC from the STB lags the video by quite a bit.

I can get HD TV CC bypassing the STB, using the QAM (if that's the right term) tuner, but can't get all channels that way and harder to find channels.

I'm getting close to buying a hi def DVD player. Anyone know of any of them that can handle CC?

Sam33

01-10-08, 01:32 PM

I have solved this problem for now by connecting our MacBook Pro to our new Samsung HDTV via a cable with DVI digital monitor output to HDMI input on the TV. This gives us full control of the closed captions via the default DVD player on the MacBook Pro which also comes with its own remote control.

whad-ya-say?

01-11-08, 01:08 PM

THANKS FOLKS! i have successfully turned on CC at the Comcast DVR machine. yes a pain to have to do it at the machine rather than 'On the fly" with a remote. nonetheless, i have CC for tv now! will try what you said about user settings tonight to play around with the formatting of it, sounds great!

i find it interesting my old-fashioned tv's do CC differently...example on the old tv's TBS has CC, ABC Family does NOT. on the new HD/Comcast setup, TBS has none, but the HD TBS channel DOES have them. ABC Family DOES have CC on the new HDTV/Comcast.

WEIRD. anybody know why the differences?

have not dealt with the dvd issue yet, that is coming next!

cardinalfanatic

01-11-08, 08:38 PM

A user at alldeaf.com forum posted that the Philips 5960 DVD player has a CC feature. I was wondering if someone can help me out with this.

I came across this website after buying my Samsung DVD upconverter for my new 32" Vizio HDTV and discovering there is no CC. I, too, am hard of hearing and rely heavily on CC for my TV viewing and I agree I prefer this over subtitles big time.

I wonder if after I return the Samsung for the Phillips, will I encounter a CC failure if it is set to 720p viewing? They could advertise the CC feature and just kindly not mention it only works in 480. So, just wondering if someone could tell me the upconverted pictures will still show CC with this model before I exchange for this particular model which also fits within my budget.

Thanks in advance and lets hope the FCC gets their stuff together and straighten this out!

avs2099

01-11-08, 09:27 PM

A user at alldeaf.com forum posted that the Philips 5960 DVD player has a CC feature. I was wondering if someone can help me out with this.

Hmmm, the same user was trolling both alldeaf and avsforum. Please see post #48 in this thread.

I do not really have anything to add to what was already written in post #69 which is:
if you want to get captions from an upscaling DVD player over HDMI,
you need one of the following Panasonic models - DMR-EZ47VK/DMR-EZ27K/DMR-EZ475V.

risesb

01-27-08, 04:01 PM

I'm new to this board but have been following threads here and elsewhere trying to figure out why CC isn't always easily activated on HD devices. Saw the title of this thread and have been reading it to see if there's truth to the theory that the HDMI connector can't carry the CC signal through to the TV. I can't claim to understand all the tech-speak I've seen - possible proof of which is that I still haven't figured out how to get the CC working on Comcast On-Demand, which is a whole 'nother story- but it's great to know there are DVD players that can get CC onto the TV, which I guess means the theory isn't exactly true?

I'd recently heard that Blu-ray and HD-DVD players don't support CC and was wondering if that would be an HDMI issue again. Has anyone tried either or both players and is this true?

Thanks.

YegorT

05-25-08, 08:32 AM

So what DVD players out there now that can decode Closed Captions over HDMI?

P.S. I am more interesting in a DVD player only (not a recorder) since they are less expensive. But if there are no players then recorders will do.

bicker1

05-25-08, 09:03 AM

So what DVD players out there now that can decode Closed Captions over HDMI?Uh, that question (specifically the phrase "over HDMI") doesn't really make sense. Decoding, specifically, converts signals into video overlay. The vast majority of DVD players can decode subtitle signals and transmit the result over HDMI. Nothing can decode "over HDMI", since decoding happens in a device, not "over" a transport stream.

Gary McCoy

05-25-08, 05:26 PM

I'm late to the discussion, but I can offer this much:

1) It only makes sense that the CC function be dependant upon the source component and not the display, since the CC text gets inserted into the video signal - be that signal HDMI or component video.

2) I have a Samsung LN-T4669FX 1080p display, vintage late 2007, which has a "Caption" button on the remote. However, this button effects only what you see when watching one of the two internal broadcast tuners on the HDTV - either the NTSC tuner or the ATSC tuner. NTSC has standard CC and the button cycles between the CC1, CC2, and OFF settings. When viewing the ATSC tuner, the button cycles between the settings DTVCC1, DTVCC2, and OFF. Note that when there is a standard definition 480i subchannel broadcast over ATSC, sometimes there are both CC and DTVCC options available - and sometimes of course, there is no captioning at all in some source material.

3) I have a Toshiba HD-A30 HD-DVD player attached to the HDMI1 input. This player will in fact output any CC signal present on the source disk, and the CC function is controlled by the disk menu and cursor buttons. I have confirmed the function for HD-DVD, but not standard DVD (I don't watch standard DVD on this unit).

4) I have a TiVo HD DVR connected via HDMI2, which is a quad tuner settop box (two NTSC and two ATSC tuners paired together). This is a Series 3 TiVo with both Component and HDMI outputs - but the HDMI cable is required to enable the HDCP function which allows you to download and view copy-protected HD video over the internet broadband connection.

With this settop box, there is an INFO key on the remote which will detail the available CC options for the material currently being viewed. The available options are CC1 and CC2 for NTSC, DTVCC1 and DTVCC2 for ATSC, and sometimes both CC and DTVCC options for standard def digital subchannels over ATSC.

5) I have a PlayStation 3 connected via HDMI3, and I use it to play both standard DVD and Blu-Ray disks. Once again I seem to have access to any CC options present in the menu of the disk.

6) I have my old Panasonic RP-62 standalone player connected via Component Video to the Samsung. I use this for playing Letterboxed conventional DVDs only, for reasons unrelated to the CC funtion. (The Letterboxed disks are not scaled to fullscreen over the HDMI connection - either from the HD-DVD or PS3 players. This may be a limitation of the Samsung display - but if you set the player for 480p output and use Component Video, you CAN zoom the image to fill the screen width.) The CC function works just as before - whatever caption options are in the disk menu can be viewed.

Hope this helps someone.

YegorT

05-26-08, 12:41 AM

There is a difference between "Closed Captions" and "Subtitles"

"Subtitles" are created in a DVD player – there is a button on a DVD player remote control which is called "Subtitles" with which you can command a DVD player to create Subtitles and insert them into images.

"Closed Captions" were transmitted to a TV in addition to video via Composite, S-Video and 480i Component (not 480p) and were decoded and shown by the TV – there is a button on a TV remote control which turns "Closed Captions" on and off.

About half of my DVDs do not have "Subtitles" but do have "Closed Captions" so I do need the ability to see "Closed Captions" on the screen.

Now we came to HDMI.

HDMI standard does not include ability to carry "Closed Captions" information to a TV in the same manner as it was with the old standards. So a TV can not decode and show "Closed Captions" because there is no this information in HDMI signal. That is it!!!

The only work around is for a DVD player to decode "Closed Captions" information from a DVD and then insert it right into images in the same way as it inserts "Subtitles" into images. Then image itself will contain "Closed Captions" text.

Well now most of DVD players in our days will not do it – they do not have ability to decode "Closed Captions" and insert them right into the image.

As reported in this thread several months ago some Panasonic DVD Recorders now started to do it.

I was wondering if some not so expansive DVD players could do it now?

Unfortunately my Sony DVP-NS78H DVD player does not do it so I do not have ability at all to see "Closed Captions" when I use HDMI to send signal.

YegorT

05-26-08, 03:39 PM

Please see post #48 in this thread.

I do not really have anything to add to what was already written in post #69 which is:
if you want to get captions from an upscaling DVD player over HDMI,
you need one of the following Panasonic models - DMR-EZ47VK/DMR-EZ27K/DMR-EZ475V.

I do not see DMR-EZ27K on Panasonic website.

It looks like it has been replaced by DMR-EZ28 (DVD Recorder).
Judging by the manual it looks like that DMR-EZ28 still supports Closed Captions over HDMI:
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/OperatingInstructions/dmrez28-oi-eng.pdf

MSRP Price is Can$249.99
http://www.panasonic.ca/english/audiovideo/dvdvcr/recorder/DMREZ28.asp

It looks like it is the least expensive solution. :(

It looks like Panasonic DVD Players still do not support Closed Captions over HDMI :(:
DVD-S53
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/OperatingInstructions/dvds53-oi-eng.pdf
DVD-S55
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/OperatingInstructions/dvds55-oi-eng.pdf
DVD-F87
http://www.panasonic.ca/PDP/OperatingInstructions/dvdf87-oi-eng.pdf

YegorT

05-26-08, 04:46 PM

A user at alldeaf.com forum posted that the Philips 5960 DVD player has a CC feature. I was wondering if someone can help me out with this.

I think that Philips 5960 does not support Closed Captions over HDMI.
I found its manual:
http://www.p4c.philips.com/files/d/dvp5960_37/dvp5960_37_dfu_aen.pdf

The manual says that TV has to support closed captions: "Before you select this function, please ensure that the disc contains closed captions information and your TV set also has this function."

So it means that Philips 5960 DVD player is probably just passing Closed Captions over composite, S-Video and 480i component connections for a TV to decode it.

howdyasay

05-28-08, 03:34 AM

HDMI standard does not include ability to carry "Closed Captions" information to a TV in the same manner as it was with the old standards. So a TV can not decode and show "Closed Captions" because there is no this information in HDMI signal. That is it!!!

The only work around...

This isn't useful to those who have a pile of existing NTSC DVDs, but I'd just like to point out that CC is an exclusively NTSC technology and therefore if you buy a European/Australian PAL DVD which has "English for the hard of hearing" subtitles (generally listed as a separate language from "English") you will see subtitles for dialogue in a roman font and the sound effects in italics. Such DVDs are easily obtained by mail order (but be careful! Plenty of DVDs have no EHoH). I understand finding a player in the US that will do PAL Region 2/4 is harder but possible.

Since CC is a hack on NTSC and not present in the PAL system used in most of the world, its omission from HDMI is not a defect in that standard and decoding the CC in the DVD player not a "workaround" but the right, proper and only thing to do.

You might also suggest to DVD publishers that they encode both CC and EHoH subtitles on all future NTSC releases. I would have thought that could be set up to happen automatically once and forever in their authoring systems.

YegorT

05-29-08, 12:20 AM

I bought Monster THX Component cable to be able to see Closed Captions at Component 480i.
Picture quality of upconverted DVDs at 1080p HDMI is significantly better than 480i Component.
I have Sony 40V3000 LCD TV and Sony DVP-NS78H upconverting 1080p DVD player.

tjw1973

06-02-08, 06:12 PM

I have searched for hours and purchase a couple of players that seemed promising only to have to return them, but thanks to earlier threads on this forum I was led to panasonic which, in dvd recorders at least, does support both analog and digital CC. I was alerted in a previous post to model DMREZ27K and checked Best Buy to find they had model DMREZ28 which I purchased and brought home to test out. I turned off CC on my tv and in the dvd recorder setup menu turned on analog and digital CC. Then I put in a dvd of Stargate Tv Series season 1 which has CC but no subtitles. The CC displayed perfectly on the tv. I am very happy with Panasonic even though I wish they had this feature in the Blu-ray and regulary dvd players at least their hd upconverting recorders have it and I am going to write them an email thanking them and asking them to broden their support of this feature.

avs2099

06-03-08, 08:37 AM

I am very happy with Panasonic even though I wish they had this feature in the Blu-ray and regulary dvd players at least their hd upconverting recorders have it and I am going to write them an email thanking them and asking them to broden their support of this feature.

If you are going through the trouble of writing someone please include CEA.
Here is some info from another thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10731790#post10731790

FCC does not regulate DVD content. It is CEA who should provide guidelines to equipment manufactures.
They provide nice documents, praising status quo, instead.

Reading their doc "Using Closed Captions in the Digital TV Age" it seems the problem does not exist. The doc is currently available from their "HDTV Press Kit"

http://www.ce.org/Press/3229.asp

The best part is at the end in section 4:

4. How do captions work with content other than TV content (e.g., packaged media)?

...in contrast to digital TV, there are no government mandates for packaged media to include captions, nor are there government mandates for media players to decode the captions....

then they suggest using composite connection to watch closed captioned media and also provide a diagram "How to connect a DVD player via composite connection to your HDTV". After a while they realize :

... [o]f course, consumers may not wish to connect their media player to their high-resolution
(Enhanced Definition or High Definition) display using a low-resolution analog connector,
because doing so sacrifices some of the video quality. Certain high-resolution connectors [certain? all of them!] do
not provide a way for closed caption data to be carried from a player to an attached TV.
Therefore, if the media player is connected to a TV with a high-resolution connector (e.g.,
HDMI), the TV may not receive any caption data from the media player and may not decode
any captions from the packaged media........

I think their attitude is to wait it over. After a while no one will be using DVDs and the problem will disappear. I wish someone from the press would start asking them questions ....

YegorT

06-03-08, 02:31 PM

bicker1

06-03-08, 03:06 PM

Uh, I think you misread that. I believe what tjw1973 confirmed was that the Panasonic DMREZ28 decodes closed captions and converts them to video overlay, so they can be transported along with the rest of the video via HDMI. Note how he says, explicitly, that he, "turned off CC on [his] tv".

It is great for a DVD player to decode closed captions, rather than just subtitles. I'll have to check into that, and pass the information along to the hearing impaired mailing lists I belong to, if folks having beaten me to it.

wigginender

06-09-08, 07:30 PM

I am glad I found this thread, I now better understand why I have been having so many problems with missing captions or subtitles. I just encountered this same problem with no CC visible from Supernatural Season 1 DVDs (Season 2 however does has English captions) on my new Blu-Ray player with an HDMI connection, so I switched back to using my regular DVD player and component cables, set the CC option on the HDTV and it works fine. And I knew I could not view CC when the DVD player was set to output progressive scan video but I never understood why...

hokiewolf

07-30-08, 10:08 AM

As an alternative, could I also hook up composite or s-video in addition to HDMI to my Philips 32" LCD HDTV? That way DVDs with subtitles could be watched via HDMI and the quality would be upconverted. DVDs with only closed captions could be watched over the composite connection with no upconversion. I've never hooked up multiple outputs on a DVD player and don't know if it is possible or recommended.

Thanks for any help on multiple output connections.

joeclark

09-06-08, 02:00 PM

There are about 20 different mistakes in this thread, but to address just the big ones:

HDMI blocks Line 21 captions, period. There is no workaround whatsoever.
The Americans with Disabilities Act has nothing to do with built-in caption decoders in the U.S.; the Television Decoder Circuitry Act does. All TV sets 13 diagonal inches or larger have been required to decode captions since mid-1993. Other devices that display television signals, including some computer display boards and every HDTV device with a tuner, must also display captioning.
I know what you’re all trying to say, but “closed captioning” just refers to any kind of optional captioning. DVD subpictures can be used for closed captioning; some DVDs come with real captioning using subpictures, but typical analogue DVDs in the United States use Line 21 captions only. (A class-action lawsuit was settled a couple of years ago requiring captioning on most DVDs from several studios.) So please don’t act like “closed captioning” is a ridiculously quaint technology that should have been long since left by the side of the road in our glorious DVD future; all DVDs can carry captions as subpictures and NTSC DVDs can also carry Line 21 captions.

That’s just for starters.

Baikonur

09-06-08, 09:57 PM

avs2099

09-07-08, 11:03 PM

From my experience is that the DVD players are the ones tha let CC out, most DVD players that do CC will have in the setup an option for CC out some new PHILPS do have a CC option in the setup and do have HDMI.

Please provide model numbers so other people can verify what you are referring to. Otherwise your post sounds at best as an idle speculation.

Baikonur

09-08-08, 12:23 PM

DVP3960/37
dvp3962/37
DVP3980/37
DVP5992/37
this are on the US philips website, you all can look at the owners manuals of other models to see if they have that feature.

chris98007

10-14-08, 11:39 AM

hey all.

Thought i would chime in on this. I have a TVIX media player that does 480 i/p, 720p, 1080 i/p. I have a panasonic plasma and a toshiba lcd. I had the TVIX connected via HDMI and found i could not get CC. I did some research and it seems that though the content is there, the technology was left out of the HDMI cable.

I switched to component cable and at 1080i i could still not get them. I tried 1080i because i read that progressive could not pass CC. I then went down to 720p, no go.
Then went down to 480p, no go.

Then went to 480i and the CC showed up. From what i understand the CC info has to do with your TV not the player. The player will pass along all the info on a disk but the TV has to decode the CC info.

What i find interesting is that this subject has been hidden in the HD market. If you cannot get CC from DVD or Blue-ray at 720p resolution and up, they are not telling us. Now do not confuse this with broadcast tv. HD TV can give you CC. This only deals with media.

Just thought you would like to know.

bicker1

10-14-08, 12:56 PM

From what i understand the CC info has to do with your TV not the player.If you're using your television's closed captioning decoder, then you need to pass your television a signal containing closed captioning data that it supports decoding of. If your player has its own closed captioning decoder, it probably will only pass closed captioning data on analog signals, i.e., 480i. For higher resolution and digital signals, you are probably expected to use the closed captioning decoder or subtitle capability in the player, itself.

If you cannot get CC from DVD or Blue-ray at 720p resolution and up, they are not telling us.Again, the intention is generally for you to use the disc's subtitle capability.

8traxrule

10-19-08, 08:58 AM

As far as I know Blu-Ray discs and HD-DVDs do not have any TV-decoded captions, only subtitles. Regular DVDs of course can have both.

vatkat234

01-20-09, 05:37 PM

avs2099

01-20-09, 06:41 PM

I just made a post on the Sony board asking them to support hard in encoding of Closed Caption for the PS3. Please make a post telling them you would like Closed Caption hard encoding please.

http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3updates&thread.id=44970

Thank you!!!

There is a much older thread - started in 2007:
http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=ps3&thread.id=1929162

So far SONY has not done anything.

vatkat234

01-20-09, 07:36 PM

Sony is a bunch or lazy pricks not to support Closed Caption.

Thanks avs2099 I would have never found that old post that was over a year ago and Sony still has not done crap to support Closed Caption.

Robstarusa

02-08-09, 07:43 PM

I have a philips 5992, as I though this would pass cc. Couldn't find this anywhere locally and ordered from amazon. I turned cc on and hooked up hdmi to my Samsung LN52A860 with no cc availble.

What does the "cc" option in this dvd player actually do ??? Every older dvd player I've ever used passes cc in the 480i signal. This does not work over hdmi in my phillips even with "cc" set to "on".

I only have 70% hearing since birth and I'd hate to have to yank out the player again & hook up the component cables.

Edit: I gave up getting this to work over HDMI. I setup the dvd player with component & hooked it directly into the component of the tv & unhooked the HDMI. I STILL CANT GET CC! If I hit the "cc" button on my tv remote while on the component input, I get "not support" on a popup/overlay on my Samsung. Is this a bug? I tried it with the dvd player set to both 480i & 480p with the same result.

Anyone seen this before?

I guess I _still_ can't get rid of my 2002 Sony KV30HS420 that DOES support cc in over component @ 480i.

avs2099

02-08-09, 09:25 PM

You should only believe reports from people who actually own the equipment.
There has been only one report like this so far in post #69 about Panasonic.

People posting about Philips are misinformed at best plus they do not own any of the players they write about.

SammyKay

02-08-09, 10:11 PM

Robstarusa

02-08-09, 10:34 PM

I also have a Panasonic DMR-EZ48V (DVD/VHS Recorder w/tuner) + Samsung LN46A630 (LCD Digital).

In general, when using an HDMI connector, the CC has to be displayed from the source unit transmitting the audio/video (e.g. cable box, DVD player, etc.). The TV will not be able to render CC text based on signal it receives through an HDMI cable

From HDMI.ORG (creators/developers of HDMI) - although HDMI transmits CC information across the cable, this is a known issue.

Is a problem, isn't a problem... yeah, it's a problem. :(

-www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx#117

Options are to use another type of connection:

Component
S-video
Audio/Video
RF cable

(in order of best to lesser quality)

From samsungs website:

For your current, HD capable Samsung TV to decode Closed Captions in a broadcast, the signal from that broadcast must pass through the TV's tuner. As a result, on most current Samsung TVs with integrated analog/digital tuners, you can get Closed Captions on the digital channels your TV receives from sources attached to the Antenna In or Cable In jacks. Signals from sources attached to these jacks pass through the tuner.

Digital signals that pass into your TV through the HDMI, DVI, or Component jacks do not pass through the tuner, consequently, your TV can not decode or provide Closed Captions from these signals. You may, however, still be able to get Closed Captions if the device (the set top box, for example) you have attached to your TV using the HDMI, DVI, or Component jacks, is capable of decoding Closed Captions. Note that if this is the case, you will use the menu of this device to access, set-up, and control the Closed Captions.

Is it just me or this retarded? I have exactly 1 s-video and 1 composite (I _THINK_).

Hdmi: No CC support (Tested)
Component: No CC support (Tested)
S-Video: No output on the DVD player (phillips 5992)
Composite: I have 1 on the dvd player (not hooked up) as well as 1 on the tv. From the above text I have no idea if cc is supported on that input, but I'm guessing not.

In any case, when will manufacturers learn that telling someone to hook their brand new 2008 model TV up to a brand new modern dvd player VIA COMPOSITE is totally unacceptable?

I think I'm going to sell my Band of Brothers DVD on ebay for whatever I can get for it and then decide if it's worth buying on Blu Ray or not. Supposedly the Blu Ray version has Subtitles on the disc itself.

bicker1

02-09-09, 05:02 AM

I think you misread what Samsung wrote:You may, however, still be able to get Closed Captions if the device (the set top box, for example) you have attached to your TV using the HDMI, DVI, or Component jacks, is capable of decoding Closed Captions. Note that if this is the case, you will use the menu of this device to access, set-up, and control the Closed Captions.
Closed caption decoding should take place at the tuner or playback device.

Robstarusa

02-09-09, 06:59 AM

So why should the DVD player do cc decoding when in the past it was done by the TV?

99% of dvd players DO NOT DO cc decoding. It's not a reasonable assumption to assume the playback device is going to do it for legacy material.

bicker1

02-09-09, 07:06 AM

So why should the DVD player do cc decoding when in the past it was done by the TV?Because outputs that support HD are not specified to carry closed captions. Instead closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device, and the result integrated into the video stream at that point, thereby traveling as open captions across the HD-compatible video connection.

99% of dvd players DO NOT DO cc decoding. It's not a reasonable assumption to assume the playback device is going to do it for legacy material.Playback devices that do not decode closed captions yet support HD-compatible outputs should be avoided, and replaced as needed.

avs2099

02-09-09, 01:52 PM

So why should the DVD player do cc decoding when in the past it was done by the TV?

"..the authors of the HDMI spec thought the DVD players would decode
captions - they even mistakenly believed that they were required to do so."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10568563&postcount=8

Robstarusa

02-09-09, 08:26 PM

Because outputs that support HD are not specified to carry closed captions. Instead closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device, and the result integrated into the video stream at that point, thereby traveling as open captions across the HD-compatible video connection.

Playback devices that do not decode closed captions yet support HD-compatible outputs should be avoided, and replaced as needed.

Bicker> Can't Component put out 480i? 480i!=HD. A tv SHOULD try to decode CC if I tell it to. That doesn't mean it will necessarily be successful. Is there any reason HDMI can't carry 480i? This I'm not sure about, but I figure that on my "av1" or "av2" input (s-video, composite) the tv should try at least to show cc since those signals are SURELY not HD. Also, Component supports HD as well as 480i, no? Shouldn't I have the option of trying to decode cc then?

bicker1

02-09-09, 08:51 PM

dmulvany

02-11-09, 02:29 PM

Edit: I gave up getting this to work over HDMI. I setup the dvd player with component & hooked it directly into the component of the tv & unhooked the HDMI. I STILL CANT GET CC! If I hit the "cc" button on my tv remote while on the component input, I get "not support" on a popup/overlay on my Samsung. Is this a bug? I tried it with the dvd player set to both 480i & 480p with the same result.

Anyone seen this before?

I guess I _still_ can't get rid of my 2002 Sony KV30HS420 that DOES support cc in over component @ 480i.

Unfortunately, some Samsung HDTVs do not route the analog inputs through the caption decoder. A friend of mine who works in the television repair industry got an advisory from Samsung about that.

I have a 2008 Samsung LN40A630M1F with both an analog and digital TV tuner which *does* decode captions through the analog inputs I've tested so far, but the 2009 models may not do that. (I haven't yet tested the component video inputs, but my HDTV can decode captions through the S-video and composite inputs.)

I haven't heard of other TV manufacturers creating such problems for people who need captions, but I would encourage everyone with a new TV to check out whether captions will be decoded through the analog inputs.

You may want to return your Samsung if you're still within the trial period of the purchase.

Dana

Fatal Wave

03-15-09, 02:26 AM

I just found this out the hard way. My mom recently got a new blu ray player and can't get the captions to work over HDMI. I'm not sure if all her old DVD's have their own subtitles either.

dmulvany

03-15-09, 03:47 AM

I think I understand that you wish things worked differently. What I explained was how things actually work, to help you understand how to gain access to closed captions. Again: Outputs that support HD are not specified to carry closed captions. Closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device. If closed captions are important to you, avoid video recorders and disc players that do not decode closed captions.

It's important for people to know that the FCC never ruled that outputs that support HD should not deliver closed caption data. Rather, the HDMI Coalition erred in not providing this capability, as has been pointed out above. Thus the fact that HD outputs don't support the transmission of caption data is an undesirable mistake rather than anything the FCC wanted to happen.

Avoiding "video recorders and disc players that do not decode closed captions" sound easy to do, but it's not. At this time, most video recorders and DVD players do not decode captions. A few combination devices that have a built-in ATSC tuner and NTSC tuner happen to decode Line 21 captions from the DVDs and videocassettes, like the Panasonic DMR-EZ48 devices. These cost over $240 compared to much less expensive DVD players that cost less than $50. It's not equitable for deaf and hard of hearing people to be forced by the HDMI coalition's failure to buy those expensive devices just to be able to decode captions and get HD quality at the same time. If HDMI cables had been designed long ago to pass through caption data to the HDTV's decoder, caption viewers would have been able to enjoy all upconverting DVD players and set top boxes equally and without hassle.

One important choice that caption viewers actually have now is to make sure that their HDTV has the ability to decode Line 21 (NTSC) captions on the component video inputs. (Many HDTVs still do have this capability, but Samsung is on record as saying that at least some of their HDTVs don't.) They should also check their DVD players to make sure that they will transmit CC data on the component video outputs after progressive scanning and upconversion has been turned off; only 480i will work for the captions to show up on the TV.

It's been learned that some set top boxes may not transmit caption data over component video outputs, perhaps because the resolution has been set to higher than 480i, so it the settings can't be adjusted, those set top boxes won't be able to transmit caption data in a way that can be decoded by the HDTV. That's probably yet another violation of the Television Decoder Circuitry Act as that law was supposed to ensure continued, equal access to captioning services and the television medium to the fullest extent made available by technology.

In the 2000 DTV captioning order, the FCC had actually written that it expected external devices to continue to pass through caption data to the TV's decoder. Bicker1 had written above: "Closed caption decoding is to take place at the tuner or playback device," but that statement is actually his personal opinion rather than anything that the FCC said, and is the result of the HDMI coalition failing to create an HDMI standard that would pass through caption data to the TV's decoder.

In my opinion, consumers whose TV equipment don't provide equal access to captioning services on all the video inputs should complain about this deficit to the FCC and point out that the FCC needs to strengthen its rules and regulations so that all new TVs will indeed provide equal access to the television medium to the "fullest extent made available by technology."

HDTVs that have both an NTSC and an ATSC tuner will be more likely to be able to support decoding of captions on the analog inputs. Some HDTVs on the market don't have an NTSC tuner and thus might not have the capability of decoding NTSC captions even through the RF input. That'll need to be doublechecked as soon as possible. In general, I'd recommend that caption users look for DTVs with both kinds of tuners to lock in the ability to decode both types of captions (unless one happens to know that an HDTV without an NTSC tuner will still be able to decode NTSC caption data).

bicker1

03-15-09, 05:11 AM

You're entitled to your opinion, Dana.

jwwhitaker

03-18-09, 04:45 PM

dmulvany

03-18-09, 05:28 PM

I own a Panasonic DMR-EZ485VK DVD Recorder / VHS combo. This unit is connected to my Magnavox LCD HDTV with HDMI cable. Panasonic DVD has CC with TV tuner built-in. I just enable CC in Panasonic. It will transmit DVD and VHS with (line-21 based) CC movies via HDMI cable.

HDMI itself will not recognize line-21 technology. So, Panasonic does the trick by opening captions and superimpose them on video before transmitting via HDMI. The video image on HDTV is excellent, preserving white text on black background CC format.

I believe that Panasonic's CC feature is done via software decoder instead of hardware. When I first bought it, it came with white texts without black background. I went to Panasonic's website to download the latest firmware version and flashed it on my DVD unit. CC came out with proper format. Yay!

We should start telling Sony and others that Panasonic has successfully made it through and they should follow Panasonic's model for PS3, DVD with upscaler feature and others.

--jeff

The main reason that Panasonic provides decoding of captions in this device is because it includes an ATSC tuner. In its 2000 DTV order, the FCC had ruled that stand-alone devices with ATSC tuners would be required to decode captions.

Panasonic makes other DVD players without tuners but doesn't provide decoding of captions, as far as I know, even though they could have done that on a voluntary basis.

Other manufacturers with DVD recorders and built-in ATSC tuners *should* also decode captions, but they may handle doing so quite differently.

I have the very similar DMR-EZ485V device, purchased from Costco, and you can change the appearance of the captions. One very interesting thing about this particular device is that the many of the digital caption settings affect the appearance of the analog captions. I have my Panasonic device set to display large yellow captions on a blue background. The analog captions will not show the font style that you choose, but it seems to show every other option. Thus, when I play a DVD, I can see large yellow captions on a blue background even though the captions are analog. As far as I know, Panasonic is the only manufacturer to apply digital caption settings to analog captions, which would be a good feature for people who have vision problems as well as hearing loss.

Some drawbacks about the Panasonic is that it doesn't have a caption button on the remote control and it doesn't have a caption preview. This occurs with the Panasonic HDTVs as well.

There is a separate thread about the Panasonic DMR-EZ48 devices that you might want to follow to pick up on different tips for your own device, like what DVDs to use. It's at:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014536
(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1014536)
Dana