I am sure some you have experimented with both SDI & 480i over HDMI feeding your standalone VPs.

Does an SDI mod'd DVD player still offer some real picture quality advantage ?

..... just trying to figure out what route to take next !

- Andy

Andy SDI is much better than HDMI, here are the reasons:

-technically more pure, doesn't have HDCP or audio added in the chain
-SDI is directly and I mean directly from the mpeg chip
-using SDI allows analog output from scalers etc.(a must for CRT projector users)
-SDI signals can be sent much further than HDMI and are more robust
-BNC connection is more stable and secure than HDMI :(
-no HDMI 480i players can come close to the SDI mods on the best mpeg decoders ever, the Panasonics from a few years back

nothing beats a SDI modified Panny RP91/RP82 and their clones ;)

-Gary

-technically more pure, doesn't have HDCP or audio added in the chain

SDI can have 4 embedded audio channels, as well as abundant ancillary data.

SDI is directly and I mean directly from the mpeg chip


Only if the MPEG decoder has an SDI output...which they don't. Otherwise, the data has to be serialised, just like HDMI.

There is no image quality difference between SDI and HDMI.

There is no image quality difference between SDI and HDMI.

not true, the fact that HDCP has been added to HDMI would give SDI the upper hand in a purity stand point

also the fact the no players with mpeg decoders as good as the Panasonics have HDMI output, so SDI is better than HDMI in every way because of the quality of mpeg decoders in the units we are comparing ;)

-Gary

not true,

...the stuff you've posted as fact, is, in fact, not true.

Your lack of technical knowledge is frightening, please look this stuff up before posting.

HDCP should not change the video data in any way once properly decoded. Yes, it is extra baggage to carry alomg but it's not going to affect image quality. Now 480i HDMI technically should not contain HDCP because it's under the maximum unprotected resolution limit. However I do agree many manufactures will not think this out and will just apply HDCP to anothing leaving the HDMI port.

As stated SDI can (and does in many professional installations) carry 4 full bandwidth (48khz) AES channels. HDSDI can actually carry 16!

What leaves the MPEG decoder chip in "modifiable" players is either a Bt656 or Bt601 8 bit parallel stream with a clock line. A Bt656 stream can simply be serialized with a single chip. A Bt601 stream must pass through some logic to add the EAV/SAV words which imply H&V sync. Generally an FPGA but I remember the days in the early 1990s when this was a PC board area the size of a business evenlope to do this with TTL chips and some crude programmable logic!

SDI is a true unbalanced serial interface needing only a sigle wire and a return wire - coax. Twisted pair is entirely possible but no standard exists for it's use. I have seen a demonstration by Belden carrying SDI over a single CAT5 pair.

HDMI is not fully serial inthe same sense. While the individule data channels, Y,pB,pR rae serial streams, there are three of them along with a clock. These four signals are balanced LVDS signals. So HDMI is also a PARALLEL interface in a sense. The problem is data skew. On a long cable it's not possible to make the fuor pairs exactly the same physical legnth. At some point this delay causes data skew. At worst case a data pair may actualyy be delayed into the next clock pulse resulting in visual chaos.

SDI is far more robust than HDMI. It can travel much greater distances over inexpensive cable.

Targus,

IMHO, Andy and Gary are talking about commercial DVD's, Movies and Television programs.
SDI can have 4 embedded audio channels, as well as abundant ancillary data.....
If this is true, common sense and logic would dictate that "4 embedded audio channels" and/or "abundant ancillary data" would not be put on media entertainment DVD's, as any extra information that would take up needed space would affect the overall PQ. If this extra information is not on the disc, then the SDI signal would be superior to the HDMI counterpart.

Paul

Targus,

IMHO, Andy and Gary are talking about commercial DVD's, Movies and Television programs.

If this is true, common sense and logic would dictate that "4 embedded audio channels" and/or "abundant ancillary data" would not be put on media entertainment DVD's, as any extra information that would take up needed space would affect the overall PQ. If this extra information is not on the disc, then the SDI signal would be superior to the HDMI counterpart.

Paul

The SDI standard (SMPTE 259) does have the ability to carry four audio channels as well as some other ancillery data. However that is not encoded in the DVD image that way. The DVD audio is where the DVD format specifies it. SDI is merely a transmission specification. In fact a DVD contains at least 6 channels of audio considering 5.1, plus more with alternate laguanges. Some DVD encoders are fed audio via SDI but it's stripped and encoded seperatly. In most authroing scenerios, audio is handled from a seperate pass from a dedicated digital audio tape, typically a Teac DA98 format. Reason - no SD digital VTR has more than 4 audio channels. That;s two short for full 5.1. (HD VTRs have 8 or 12 channels).

The addition of audio data in the video stream in either SDI or HDMI has no ill effects on video quality or bandwidth. The space is allocated for it. If you don't use it, then that space is empty. But the space reserved for video data transmission remains the same.

Adding audio to SDI or HDMI does not compromise the video data payload in any way. Now the more audio channles on the disk, the less room for video, but that's a different issue altogether.

:cool:

So when it is said that a DTS track wasn't put on a DVD because it would take up too much valuable space, compressing the video portion further - would not be an accurate statement?

Thanks for the tech info.

But what will my eyes see using an SDI player mated with the likes of a Lumagen/DVDO/Crystallio2, as compared to a 480I HDMI player ?

I happen to have a Panasonic XP50 with SDi from my Immersive Holo3D-2-Aux days, and am not sure if I should keep it for future use, or sell it off. But Methinks I should keep it in my closet of treasures, considering it might only fetch < $300 at the buy & sell sites.

- Andy

nothing beats a SDI modified Panny RP91/RP82 and their clones ;)
I wouldn't trade my 963SA for one.

...the stuff you've posted as fact, is, in fact, not true.

Your lack of technical knowledge is frightening, please look this stuff up before posting.

I never said they were facts did I ? your blind comments(like about Monster) are what is frightening

who cares if SDI can carry audio?, that doesn't apply to our situation in anyway shape or form, there have been face offs comparing HDMI to SDI on the same player, take a guess which one won? :rolleyes:

SDI can travel longer, doesn't have HDCP which leads to analog output problems, uses a much better BNC connector in 99% of cases and is actually better in picture quality, sorry it has been proven

Andy you have the best there is, the XP50 is at the top of the heap, no need for anything else, the XP50 also doesn't have a spindle motor defect either, Do Not get rid of it

Carl I have yet to have a Philips on my bench, I tend to avoid the 601 players with the 2 extra channels as the SDI products are much more expensive

-Gary

I tend to avoid the 601 players with the 2 extra channels as the SDI products are much more expensive
Understandable, although "much" is probably overstating the case slightly.

:cool:

So when it is said that a DTS track wasn't put on a DVD because it would take up too much valuable space, compressing the video portion further - would not be an accurate statement?

It is entirely accurate. The disk only has so many gig's of capacity. But we are talking about the interface here, not the disk capacity. Both interface standards have reserved capacity for digital audio. Adding it or not does not change the allotted video banswidth.

There is no image quality difference between SDI and HDMI.
That's very blanket statement and not really true.

Yes, an optimal HDMI implementation *can* theoretically be identical to SDI. However, in most cases SDI still looks better in real life. Why? Because most DVD players do harm to the video stream before outputting it over HDMI.

E.g. I've been told by UK custom installers that an SDI modded Arcam DVD player still looks ever so slightly sharper than the HDMI output of the very same player. The difference is very small with Arcam, though, and only visible on very large displays. However, Arcam are known for a very good HDMI output. Most other DVD players do worse than that. E.g. most HDMI players don't even support 480i output. And YCbCr output is also not available in every HDMI DVD player.

That's very blanket statement and not really true.

Yes, an optimal HDMI implementation *can* theoretically be identical to SDI. However, in most cases SDI still looks better in real life. Why? Because most DVD players do harm to the video stream before outputting it over HDMI.

E.g. I've been told by UK custom installers that an SDI modded Arcam DVD player still looks ever so slightly sharper than the HDMI output of the very same player. The difference is very small with Arcam, though, and only visible on very large displays. However, Arcam are known for a very good HDMI output. Most other DVD players do worse than that. E.g. most HDMI players don't even support 480i output. And YCbCr output is also not available in every HDMI DVD player.

I think the way it was presented was to harsh coming from a real fan of sdi :). With you most of us would have the view that sdi and hdmi can be the same in PQ but it seems most are not when doing real testing. We all asume this is because 'stuff is done to the signal' before it reaches the output. Now the question is have we looked at examples of what is done ? I myself use SDI since it seems to be a sure bet compared to using hdmi out at this stage but i would love to know what kinda of 'things' are done to the signal to create this difference in real world tests.

Or could it be that somehow the chips in the chain itself (when using hdmi) that give the difference in results i mean they sofar all use the same chips from SI no?

Also i would like to add one more (small) reason to use SDI for dvd, if your scaler has a SDI in it means you will keep 1 extra hdmi free. Like alot of things with scalers small things add up for me its the points Gary pointed out plus this.


Daniel.

Now the question is have we looked at examples of what is done ? I myself use SDI since it seems to be a sure bet compared to using hdmi out at this stage but i would love to know what kinda of 'things' are done to the signal to create this difference in real world tests.
Good question and I would like to know that, too. Possible things a DVD player could do to the video stream are:

(1) Color space conversion.
(2) Clipping of BTB/WTW.
(3) Deinterlacing.
(4) Noise reduction.
(5) Filtering (e.g. CUE filtering or vertical filtering).
(6) Color "correction".
(7) Overscan.

Some of these are not necessarily bad in itself - but bad if you use an external video processor which most probably can do all these things better.

But as you said, maybe there are more things than that going on behind the scenes, which we don't know of.

DVD players sometimes scale the image, too. I know mine scales VCDs for no obvious reason.

(4) Noise reduction.

Some of these are not necessarily bad in itself - but bad if you use an external video processor which most probably can do all these things better.

:) well let's just say for argument sake, for this the additional processing could actually be gd, if the HDMI is done properly and the external video processor is deficient in NR. A prime example will be the upcoming Denon 3930, if the 480i output (it supports) can have HQV NR applied first (this part is unknown yet), then a VP30+ABT102 will benefit greatly from this output.

In all honesty I think both depend on how well it is done. A SDI mod can probably also be done poorly that introduces unwanted "jitters" (is there such thing in video?) Since all these mods are after-market, at least for the connector part the builtin "path" can be better. So ideally they all should have no difference, just that in reality the HDMI implementation so far is pretty poor.

Danielo and Madshi have pretty much said it all, I rest my case ;)

-Gary

:) well let's just say for argument sake, for this the additional processing could actually be gd, if the HDMI is done properly and the external video processor is deficient in NR. A prime example will be the upcoming Denon 3930, if the 480i output (it supports) can have HQV NR applied first (this part is unknown yet), then a VP30+ABT102 will benefit greatly from this output.
You could, theoretically, put the SDI in after the realta in such a case, assuming that it puts out normal bt.601/656 in YCbCr 4:2:2 16-235. Even if it doesn't, you could go really whacked out and connect a i2c terminal up to it, and reprogramme it to do so.

In all honesty I think both depend on how well it is done. A SDI mod can probably also be done poorly that introduces unwanted "jitters" (is there such thing in video?)
HDMI has no less jitter than SDI does.

Since all these mods are after-market, at least for the connector part the builtin "path" can be better.
I've never seen a case where that has happened in practice.

That's very blanket statement and not really true.

This is a perfect example:



Yes, an optimal HDMI implementation *can* theoretically be identical to SDI. However, in most cases SDI still looks better in real life. Why? Because most DVD players do harm to the video stream before outputting it over HDMI.

A "blanket" statement, with very little basis in reality....like most of the other posts by the SDI experts in this thread.

A "blanket" statement, with very little basis in reality....like most of the other posts by the SDI experts in this thread.
Quite the contrary. What I posted is confirmed in numerous threads by almost all people who have real life experience with SDI vs. HDMI.

Now 480i HDMI technically should not contain HDCP because it's under the maximum unprotected resolution limit. However I do agree many manufactures will not think this out and will just apply HDCP to anothing leaving the HDMI port.
I am under the impression that the CSS spec/license forces manufacturers of DVD players to apply HDCP to all resolutions, including 480i.

I think I’m following all this……I think. Pretty much over my head, as with 90% of the posts on this board. But I keep reading and trying to learn anyway. Advil helps........

Where would the Oppo 970HD fall into this discussion? Didn’t they target VP owners with this machine? Have they done something different with the data stream that would make the machine comparable to a SDI modified player?

Quite the contrary. What I posted is confirmed in numerous threads by almost all people who have real life experience with SDI vs. HDMI.
I have a Pioneer AVi59 modded by Patrick of Lumagen for SDI output. It's mated to the Lumagen HDPro. I have run numerous tests, both using DVE and films, to see if there is a difference between HDMI and SDI.

Guess what - there is a measurable difference. The HDMI has noticable ringing on the DVE resolution test pattrern - there is none via SDI. Also, and I admit this may be subjective, viewing a movie via SDI seems more fluid with marginally better blacks and colors.

Frankly, I don't care why there is a difference, but I'd tell anyone to consider an SDI mod if they use a video processor that accepts SDI input.

PS: folks here don't take likely to 'blanket statements' - much better to share your personal experience. YMMV.

@J.Mike - thanks!

You could, theoretically, put the SDI in after the realta in such a case, assuming that it puts out normal bt.601/656 in YCbCr 4:2:2 16-235. Even if it doesn't, you could go really whacked out and connect a i2c terminal up to it, and reprogramme it to do so.

but isn't doing this a bit out of the way ? guys I'm not disagreeing SDI is superior at the moment. My point is, ideally both should be the same. Just at the moment no HDMI transport is done properly yet. It doesn't mean this cannot be done. Unless someone can tell me it's technically impossible to achieve the same in HDMI. (I'm having high hopes on the Denons)


I've never seen a case where that has happened in practice


I'm referring strictly to the mod. I've not done a SDI mod myself, but I have done audio mod before (simple changing of capacitors/clock chip). The skill makes some difference. The connections done at an aftermarket mod, IMHO, usually does not match the clean connection in an integrated PCB. Especially when you tap a chip via its pin out. The current drain and DC grounding itself is already an issue (well at least for audio we have to try to see). SDI in commercial environment is different.

I have a Pioneer AVi59 modded by Patrick of Lumagen for SDI output. It's mated to the Lumagen HDPro. I have run numerous tests, both using DVE and films, to see if there is a difference between HDMI and SDI.

Guess what - there is a measurable difference. The HDMI has noticable ringing on the DVE resolution test pattrern - there is none via SDI. Also, and I admit this may be subjective, viewing a movie via SDI seems more fluid with marginally better blacks and colors.


J. Mike, I have a DV-59Avi also and have been thinking about SDI modding it. One thing that bugs me is that the "direct" mode on the 59 will not pass BTB. A person has to enable additional processing to get it to pass BTB which may be one reason why SDI is better than HDMI on that particular player. But before I speculate, can you tell me if in fact you get BTB/WTW via SDI?

I was thinking the same thing Mark. If you use the "DIRECT" mode out of the 59AVi then it "should', you would think, be pretty much the same as SDI:rolleyes: Although I have found the same thing you mention to be true with mine also.

My take on it is if you feel that the small amount of image quality is worth the added expense of going SDI, then just do it.

There are so many variables that can creep into each one that I think personal experimentation is definitely in order to see which combo works best and/or makes it worth the money.

I have a Pioneer AVi59 modded by Patrick of Lumagen for SDI output. It's mated to the Lumagen HDPro. I have run numerous tests, both using DVE and films, to see if there is a difference between HDMI and SDI.

Guess what - there is a measurable difference. The HDMI has noticable ringing on the DVE resolution test pattrern - there is none via SDI. Also, and I admit this may be subjective, viewing a movie via SDI seems more fluid with marginally better blacks and colors.

Frankly, I don't care why there is a difference, but I'd tell anyone to consider an SDI mod if they use a video processor that accepts SDI input.

PS: folks here don't take likely to 'blanket statements' - much better to share your personal experience. YMMV.

thanks Mike, do we need anymore evidence?, like I and others in this thread have said, SDI has proven better than HDMI time and time again, even on the same players and this is on a pure picture quality level, not considering all the other benefits

-Gary

If you look in the 59avi owners thread in the DVD forum (May-ish 2006?) you will see discussion that even with proper player settings the 480i from HDMI is not "correct" - what is on the DVD. There's a couple aberrations when moving up through the grayscale. Plus I can't recall if the 59avi outputs YCbCr. If you are picky, SDI is the best way.

larry

I agree Larry. It is a mystery why that is the case and why Pioneer did it this way.

Dave,
Carl did all his testing with Avia Pro test patterns and a Lumagen HDP (some function in it can display a value that can be converted to black level). Don't you have access to these? It would be cool if somebody could do a similar evaluation of the 970HD. Hint, hint. :)

larry

The 59AVi has one of the very best HDMI interfaces. It's one of few players that can actually output native digital interlaced component video over HDMI. The Pio and Arcam DV-79s go one better and can output YCbCr 4:2:2 video - supposedly just the same as SDI. But people invariably say an SDI interfce is better still. I've never heard anyone say there is no difference.

Nick

I own 3 or 4 HDMI players that are SDI'ed. SDI is better in each case, sometimes a small margin, other times it is larger.

The Oppo 970 is a lovely cheap transport though.

I think we all now agree SDI in practice is better, question is why or better can we expect a perfect HDMI player. The reason for asking is simple we need these kinds of tests in the new secrets tests for example. First there was a demand for 480i over hdmi now that we have a good load of them (about 10?) its time to have ways to compare them to SDI (as we all agree that is the accepted reference).

I really hope we are moving that way since who of us would not love a 'perfect' hdmi in the form of a cheap $150 player if only as a extra or to help out friends who are not willing to go the sdi route (and its costs and troubles).

Daniel.

A bit off topic but I'd love to hear SD-SDI/DVD comparison with HD-DVD. And will we be seeing HD-SDI modded players and VP's? Has anyone seen HD-SDI?

I wish santa could give me a HD-SDI modified HD-DVD and Blueray player 4 christmas. i`ve been realy good this year. ;)

Dave,
Carl did all his testing with Avia Pro test patterns and a Lumagen HDP (some function in it can display a value that can be converted to black level). Don't you have access to these? It would be cool if somebody could do a similar evaluation of the 970HD. Hint, hint. :)

larry

Larry,

I don't have access to the Oppo 970, but if you want to buy me one I'll gladly take it. I can probably get manufacturer accommodation pricing too;)

I also don't have a Lumagen anymore, so if you want to ship that along with the Oppo you're more than welcome to:D!!!

but isn't doing this a bit out of the way ? guys I'm not disagreeing SDI is superior at the moment. My point is, ideally both should be the same.
Well ideally no one should live in poverty in first world countries. Alas, the reality of situations is not always so rosey.

The moment you do one thing to the video between the MPEG decoder and the HDMI board, the picture stops being the identical.

Unless someone can tell me it's technically impossible to achieve the same in HDMI. (I'm having high hopes on the Denons)
Well Denon doesn't have the greatest history of doing things "right", so I wouldn't pin too much hope on them.

It's certainly not impossible to have a bit identical HDMI out, but by the time the money men have picked over the machine, and any design failings have been factored in, the DIY approach will usually make more sense.

I'm referring strictly to the mod. I've not done a SDI mod myself, but I have done audio mod before (simple changing of capacitors/clock chip). The skill makes some difference.
Being the addition of a digital interface, it's different from a parts upgrade. The audio analogue of SDI is I2S, something I'm intending to add to my DVD player sometime when I find the time. The same rules apply with I2S (and unlike SDI and HDMI, I2S is genuinely and demonstratably much superior to SPDIF).

The connections done at an aftermarket mod, IMHO, usually does not match the clean connection in an integrated PCB.
Point to point wiring can in fact be superior to a PCB.

Especially when you tap a chip via its pin out. The current drain and DC grounding itself is already an issue (well at least for audio we have to try to see).
SDI is connected up by paralleled single ended cabling, so grounding isn't an issue assuming it's soldered properly, and I've yet to see a player without sufficient internal current headroom to support the mod.

will we be seeing HD-SDI modded players and VP's? Has anyone seen HD-SDI?
The more expensive version of the Crystalio II comes with 2 HD-SDI inputs. The Vantage-HD has an optional dual HD-SDI input expansion board.

Reports say that both Toshiba's and Samsung's HDVD players have already been successfully HD-SDI modded.

The more expensive version of the Crystalio II comes with 2 HD-SDI inputs. The Vantage-HD has an optional dual HD-SDI input expansion board.

Reports say that both Toshiba's and Samsung's HDVD players have already been successfully HD-SDI modded.


Very damn cool. I can't wait to see this.

Question - With the path of HD-SDI being:

HD-SDI Source -> HD-SDI Video Processor -> HDMI Display (1080p)

Will HDMI negatively impact the signal?

Question - With the path of HD-SDI being:

HD-SDI Source -> HD-SDI Video Processor -> HDMI Display (1080p)

Will HDMI negatively impact the signal?
With HDMI 1.0 - 1.2 yes! Why? Because a good VP internally calculates in 10bit 4:4:4 and HDMI 1.0 - 1.2 can not transport that. So the VP has to dither the video data down to a format HDMI 1.0 - 1.2 can understand/transport. HDMI 1.3 with its DeepColor feature should be able to transport the video data in the same format the VP is ending up with, so there should be no loss in image quality (provided there are no transmission problems like jitter, dropouts or whatever).

However, the big question is whether there's a *noticable* impact with HDMI 1.0 - 1.2. Maybe yes, maybe no. I can't really answer that question.

J. Mike, I have a DV-59Avi also and have been thinking about SDI modding it. One thing that bugs me is that the "direct" mode on the 59 will not pass BTB. A person has to enable additional processing to get it to pass BTB which may be one reason why SDI is better than HDMI on that particular player. But before I speculate, can you tell me if in fact you get BTB/WTW via SDI?
Mark,
I have both AVIA and DVE, and for both patterns, the SDI interface does pass BTB. ;)

BTW, just watched UltraViolet last night via the DV-59AVi. The story natch, sucked big time, and after the 1st 40 minutes or so, I started to lose interest. But the movie is serious eye-candy, and is about the best mastered SD title to date. Compared to my Toshiba HD-DVD, the only major issue is the lack of resolution, otherwise, the colors and contrast are very close to HD-DVD standards. There is still a lot of life in SD-DVD, which still makes my investment in SDI a good choice that will serve for some time to come.

A bit off topic but I'd love to hear SD-SDI/DVD comparison with HD-DVD. And will we be seeing HD-SDI modded players and VP's? Has anyone seen HD-SDI?

This is highly unlikely if the HD players are built to HDCP licensing requirements. Those requirements state that no unencrypted video data buss can be exposed. That means either the unencrypted video must remain inside a chip or must be routed on internal layers of the PC board using blind vias. In layman's terms that says there is no place to solder to.

This is highly unlikely if the HD players are built to HDCP licensing requirements. Those requirements state that no unencrypted video data buss can be exposed. That means either the unencrypted video must remain inside a chip or must be routed on internal layers of the PC board using blind vias. In layman's terms that says there is no place to solder to.
Glimmie, but DVD players also have to implement HDCP. And lots of them are SDI moddable. Why should things change with HDVD?

Glimmie, but DVD players also have to implement HDCP. And lots of them are SDI moddable. Why should things change with HDVD?

In theory the HD players aren't supposed to exposed the signals requied to hook up the HD-SDI interface, however I think the early kit has been shown to expose the signals required, but its not gauranteed in the future.

John.

I was thinking the same thing Mark. If you use the "DIRECT" mode out of the 59AVi then it "should', you would think, be pretty much the same as SDI:rolleyes: Although I have found the same thing you mention to be true with mine also.

My take on it is if you feel that the small amount of image quality is worth the added expense of going SDI, then just do it.

There are so many variables that can creep into each one that I think personal experimentation is definitely in order to see which combo works best and/or makes it worth the money.

From reading the mega DV-59 owners thread on the DVD forum it sounds like most of the gurus that did a lot of testing there don't use "direct" mode and enable some processing to get around the BTB problems and get a better picture. This has basically convinced me to SDI mod the 59. I'd like to have at least one pure source to feed into a quality scaler and then let the scaler do it's thing.

Has any one use the Marantz DV9600 as a digital transport and compare the SDI vs HDMI?

Glimmie, but DVD players also have to implement HDCP. And lots of them are SDI moddable. Why should things change with HDVD?

I wasn't aware that HDCP requirements extended to SD DVD. The do have CSS and Macrovision on the NTSC & Y/C outputs. I have even seen some with Macrovision on the Y component output. But even so, the players that have been modified are all older models where HDCP was not required even if it is now. HDCP implementation is rather new even though it has been discussed for the past three years.

There is however the issue of manufacturing cost. If you look through the "Poor Man's SDI" thread, you will see there are a few new players that have combined MPEG decoder chips which include the analog DACS and NTSC encoder. Here, the digital video buss is not accessable. This is simply a result of large mass production where the engineering costs of a model specific single ASIC pay off. You can't sell DVD players at Wall-Mart for $39.99 with third party chip sets and multilayer PC boards to interconnect them. Be assured this will happen to HD DVD palyers as well.

I wasn't aware that HDCP requirements extended to SD DVD.
FWIW, all HDMI equipped DVD players have HDCP activated. Doesn't that mean that the HDCP requirements do apply to SD DVD players? Why else should they activate HDCP on the HDMI output? They could differentiate themselves from each other if they did NOT activate HDCP. But still every DVD player has HDCP activated, and I believe to have read multiple times that this is legally a must.

But even so, the players that have been modified are all older models where HDCP was not required even if it is now.
That's not true. There are several HDMI equipped DVD players (all of which have HDCP activated on the HDMI output) which have been successfully SDI modded. E.g. Pioneer's flagship player, all the Arcam DVD players and also an Oppo, just to name a few examples.

There is however the issue of manufacturing cost. If you look through the "Poor Man's SDI" thread, you will see there are a few new players that have combined MPEG decoder chips which include the analog DACS and NTSC encoder. Here, the digital video buss is not accessable. This is simply a result of large mass production where the engineering costs of a model specific single ASIC pay off. You can't sell DVD players at Wall-Mart for $39.99 with third party chip sets and multilayer PC boards to interconnect them. Be assured this will happen to HD DVD palyers as well.
That's quite possible/probable. But still only some DVD players are built this way, not all. And it's only done to reduce cost and not to make SDI mods impossible.

the only players without HDCP are those that somehow bypassed the test by avoiding having to sign the HDMI/HDCP/DVD license agreements (E.g. Oppo, Bravo).

are there any HDMI(not DVI) based DVD players that don't have HDCP?

-Gary

are there any HDMI(not DVI) based DVD players that don't have HDCP?

-Gary


Not that I have come across but you 'can get' some discs where HDCP isn't applied as no copy protection is needed and the HDMI output does not have HDCP. Superbits are lovely :)

The easy way around HDCP is to have a DVI out player and them HDCP is not mandatory, as others have hinted at already.

Has any one use the Marantz DV9600 as a digital transport and compare the SDI vs HDMI?

I've used one for a while running 480I 4:2:2 10bit to a Pioneer XDI Plasma. Picture was excellent, I might be able to borrow the player to compare my SDI modded DV-868 if anyone is interested.

Right now I'm more interested in a HD player with I-Link for Audio, all these players with one HDMI output cause problems for poeple like myself who use an audio only preamp with a video processor.

Gary,

HDMI implies HDCP

From reading the mega DV-59 owners thread on the DVD forum it sounds like most of the gurus that did a lot of testing there don't use "direct" mode and enable some processing to get around the BTB problems and get a better picture. This has basically convinced me to SDI mod the 59. I'd like to have at least one pure source to feed into a quality scaler and then let the scaler do it's thing.

Yes, I know that direct mode shouldn't be used, for that very reason. That was the point of the comment I made about it and why I said should when talking about direct mode output. You'd think that since they called it DIRECT, that it would be just that without clipping of the head and toe room:rolleyes:

Wanting SDI and also wanting a media server ..... makes everything a huge pain in the butt !

Anyone using the XCARD with the SDI-out option from Pixel Magic ?
Is there any othe way to get SDI out of an HTPC/MediaServer ?

- Andy

Wanting SDI and also wanting a media server ..... makes everything a huge pain in the butt !

Anyone using the XCARD with the SDI-out option from Pixel Magic ?
Is there any othe way to get SDI out of an HTPC/MediaServer ?

- Andy
I wonder if it's possible. The Sigma chip in it has the scaler intergrated into it, which would suggest it's not possible, but the Crystalio II uses one, which would suggest it is.

Have you tried asking over at Pixel Magic's forum? Good luck, I'd like to know the results, too.

Has any one use the Marantz DV9600 as a digital transport and compare the SDI vs HDMI?

Yes,I have compared sending Marantz DV-9600 SDI output to external scaler DVDO VP30 that comes with built in SDI/ABT102 cards vs sending it via HDMI output.
The result is that SDI output gives slightly better performance compare to 480i HDMI output.
Does any one know if Toshiba XA-1HD DVD player can be modified with HD SDI output ?

Kartono

whereas the virtues of SDI modded players are usually trumpeted, comparisons among sdi modded players are not always easily available. can anyone say for example, what the differences between the SDI modded panasonics rp-56, -52,-91 might be?

tnx.

The differences between SDI players are down to the quality of their MPEG decoders. In the Panny case my 82 is better than my 62 as it has a better MPEG decoder chip. The other big difference is in the audio quality.

Where do you get the players modified?

TWD,

PM Gary Murrell, he did my Denon 2900, which has a fantastic picture - as close to HD as I could hope for from SD DVD.

I feed my SDI 2900 in to a VP30 with ABT102 on to a 92" Firehawk. It does provide an incredible picture.

Steve

My 2 cents worth here if I may. I modded my OPPO 971H with the PM BT656 module. I posted the results in the OPPO modded SDI thread several weeks ago. But essentially, when comparing the OPPO's DVI output (at the same resolution, i.e 576p) with the Pixel Magic's SDI board (at 576i of course), and feeding both through the VP30, SDI wins out in resolution (sharpness) and noise. I make this statement objectively - using both DVE and AVIA test DVDs. The vertical and horizontal high frequency banding artifacts that are evident when viewing the DVI output, are completely absent on the SDI output. What really surprised me too, was the total absence of noise on SDI. You can clearly see this on a static, but repeating pattern, such as the "missing pixel" test on the ABT102 test DVD.

SDI and DVI are both available at the same time and the output resolution on the DVI port can be set to any of the 3 res, viz 480/576p, 720p and 1080i, without of course affecting the SDI output. A very neat setup to compare the OPPO's de-interlacing and scaling capabilities to those of the VP30/ABT102!!

The one caveat with the OPPO and PM SDI card, is that you will need the ABT102 with the VP30 to get a picture out on PAL. Without the ABT102, you will only get NTSC. The other thing to note is that the first 3 top lines are cropped when running PAL. I discovered this when I ran the ABT102 test disc. Otherwise, as I said, the picture is brilliant - the closest I have seen to HD.

Addendum:

To be able to see some of the differences between the 2 output sources, you will need a display that does NOT do any internal scaling, as this could mask some of the gains that SDI offers (at least in my setup). My display is a Professional Samsung 403T 40in LCD panel with native 1280 x 768 resolution and native 50 and 60 Hz Frame Rate support. The VP30 is pixel to pixel and FR matched to the display.

My 2 cents worth here if I may. I modded my OPPO 971H with the PM BT656 module. I posted the results in the OPPO modded SDI thread several weeks ago. But essentially, when comparing the OPPO's DVI output (at the same resolution, i.e 576p) with the Pixel Magic's SDI board (at 576i of course), and feeding both through the VP30, SDI wins out in resolution (sharpness) and noise. I make this statement objectively - using both DVE and AVIA test DVDs. The vertical and horizontal high frequency banding artifacts that are evident when viewing the DVI output, are completely absent on the SDI output. What really surprised me too, was the total absence of noise on SDI. You can clearly see this on a static, but repeating pattern, such as the "missing pixel" test on the ABT102 test DVD.

SDI and DVI are both available at the same time and the output resolution on the DVI port can be set to any of the 3 res, viz 480/576p, 720p and 1080i, without of course affecting the SDI output. A very neat setup to compare the OPPO's de-interlacing and scaling capabilities to those of the VP30/ABT102!!

The one caveat with the OPPO and PM SDI card, is that you will need the ABT102 with the VP30 to get a picture out on PAL. Without the ABT102, you will only get NTSC. The other thing to note is that the first 3 top lines are cropped when running PAL. I discovered this when I ran the ABT102 test disc. Otherwise, as I said, the picture is brilliant - the closest I have seen to HD.


At this point we come back to the point already posted in this thread some feel its the same (or should be) others tested and found its not. At times its clear to all of us that dvi/hdmi is easer to add to a system than sdi so lets found out why. I mean i for one can't see why the dvi/hdmi should have noise .. it just doesn't make sense. Since you have a oppo and they are more open then most could you ask them why ?

Again i think we should try to find out what these players are doing to the dvi signal and start putting presure on them to atleast make these 'actions' selectable (because they don't have to be bad). If its the result of conversion parts that are bad we should pressure them to fix it. lets not forget the lessons Stacy/Dale and others have learned when they first encountered the CUE problems.

FYI, i also use a denon 2900vM (alot of changed) with a pms sdi mod for a few years now but would not mind to add a cheap dvi 480i model that would to the same.

Daniel.

I mean i for one can't see why the dvi/hdmi should have noise .. it just doesn't make sense.
There are actually processing chips in DVI/HDMI transmitters. It's not a simply the case of what goes in comes out. Now ideally the processing should be completely transparent and have no effect on picture quality, but I'll leave you to decide for yourself how ideal things really are...

I modded my OPPO 971H with the PM BT656 module. I posted the results in the OPPO modded SDI thread several weeks ago. But essentially, when comparing the OPPO's DVI output (at the same resolution, i.e 576p) with the Pixel Magic's SDI board (at 576i of course), and feeding both through the VP30, SDI wins out in resolution (sharpness) and noise.....

Déjà vu – I did the same thing – Oppo 971H + BT656PRO mod into a Lumagen HDQ. Got the same results – SDI wins by a large margin on image quality – sharper with less noise. I compared Oppo 480p DVI and Toshiba HD-A1 480p HDMI vs Oppo SDI – it is not subtle, it is significantly better via Oppo 480i SDI. I have the same top lines pixel cropping problem (non-issue for me – 99% of my disks are not 4:3 – so the missing pixels are part of the top black bar).

To be fair, this does not answer the question: Can 480i HDMI/DVI be the equal of 480i SDI? I see no reason that they can’t have equal image quality, it just takes someone doing it correctly. Something is being done incorrectly with HDMI/DVI outputs on DVD players, I don’t know what exactly is happening, but the image from HDMI/DVI is clearly inferior to SDI. The sad part is that it should be easy for a manufacturer to find out exactly what is going on. They should have all the diagnostic and analysis tools that they need to track this down, if they didn’t have those tools, they could not have built the players. Apparently they just don’t care – I don’t see any other explanation for why they are all still broken – lack of market pressure is my theory about why this is.

My 2 cents worth here if I may. I modded my OPPO 971H with the PM BT656 module. I posted the results in the OPPO modded SDI thread several weeks ago. But essentially, when comparing the OPPO's DVI output (at the same resolution, i.e 576p) with the Pixel Magic's SDI board (at 576i of course), and feeding both through the VP30, SDI wins out in resolution (sharpness) and noise. I make this statement objectively - using both DVE and AVIA test DVDs. The vertical and horizontal high frequency banding artifacts that are evident when viewing the DVI output, are completely absent on the SDI output. What really surprised me too, was the total absence of noise on SDI. You can clearly see this on a static, but repeating pattern, such as the "missing pixel" test on the ABT102 test DVD.

This is not a fair comparisson as you're using DVI's at 576p to SDI's 576i.

This is not a fair comparisson as you're using DVI's at 576p to SDI's 576i.
Same problem with usualsuspects' comparison - You need to compare 480i to 480i, not 480i to 480p.

The only way it could be done with an Oppo is to use the 970H, not the 971H. The 970H outputs 480i over HDMI and the 971H does not. So to do a fair comparison, one would need to SDI mod a 970H and then compare the SDI at 480i to the HDMI at 480i of the same player. In the 971H, I would certainly hope that the SDI output would beat out HDMI outputting 480p, as the deinterlacing is being done in the player.

One thing no one has mentioned up to this point and it really is surprising - The quality of the scaling/deinterlacing after the 480i out is far more important than whether the 480i is coming from HDMI or SDI. I mean, if you take the SDI 480i output of a player and then feed it into a video processor that is poorer in quality than the one built into the player, then what's the point?

Same problem with usualsuspects' comparison - You need to compare 480i to 480i, not 480i to 480p.

I realize that, I tried to separate my comments into two sections. One was an agreement with a previous poster about Oppo 971H SDI output quality. The other was a general comment that HDMI/DVI outputs are broken. I realize that you need to compare 480i to 480i for a valid experiment. It is interesting to me that two very different players (HD-A1 and Oppo 971H) put out nearly identical 480p outputs that show the same flaws vs SDI. Again I realize that we are comparing apples to oranges, but it tends to point me in the direction of something happening to the data after it has been de-interlaced and not the de-interlacers as the problem. De-interlacing film with a good cadence is very easy.

To echo your comments Usualsuspects, you may have noticed that in my appraisal of SDI vs HDMI on my SDI modded OPPO, I did not comment on the difference between the two de-interlacing platforms. As you say, film material on PAL is a straight 2:2 cadence as it is played back at 25 frames/sec. So, as the cadence workload is minimal and the fact that the Faroudja Chipset is pretty good at adaptive deinterlacing of film anyway, I could not detect much/any difference between the SDI and DVI outputs wrt de-interlacing in the comparison tests that I did. Regardless, I only highlighted those differences that were not affected by de-interlacing.

My report was not so much to prove or disprove the differences between SDIi and HDMIi, as to confirm the reports that many have made that SDI appears to win out over the current implementations of 480/576i HDMI on most (or all so far?) players when outputting 480/576i.

BTW, I should correct an error I made earlier. The PM board crops the top 3 lines ONLY on NTSC, NOT PAL. I was using the ABT102 test disk when reporting this - but this disk is in 480i format. Using my DVE PAL test disc shows no cropping and indeed all PAL movies show none either. So, for once us PAL guys are out on top. :)

I didn't have time to do a full blown test, but SDI output of an RP56 had better PQ, IMHO than the OPPO 970H, but the difference was fairly marginal - not cardinal.

I agree that until an Oppo 970 (or other 480i capable player) SDI vs HDMI be available for observation, it would be just speculation at this point.

I agree that until an Oppo 970 (or other 480i capable player) SDI vs HDMI be available for observation, it would be just speculation at this point.
I own a 970H and would be willing to SDI mod mine...Does anyone know where I can get a DIY kit to do a SDI mod on the 970H? I am certainly more than capable to do the soldering, but I would need a schematic or better yet a diagram mapping out the connect points.

I have a SDI modded Panny RP-82, but we are still in the same position of not being able to compare apples to apples.

Bob, here's a couple from Digital Connections:

https://www.digitalconnection.com/store/product_images/st2_bt601pk.jpg
https://www.digitalconnection.com/store/product_images/st2_bt656pk.jpg

Thanks, Dave, but where do I get the pinouts? Like I said, I am a very capable solderer, but I don't have a clue where to connect what pin...:p

If you follow the links I believe it has some hyperlinks to that info for you.

Ooops, sent the wrong links, here ya go:\

http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/bt601pk.asp
http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/sdikitp.asp

Ok, thanks, Dave...That might just be enough for me to figure it out! :)

I think I'll open up the 970H first and check things out to assess the work involved. Twelve wires might not be too bad at all depending on how everything is laid out in the 970H.

Ok, thanks, Dave...That might just be enough for me to figure it out! :)

I think I'll open up the 970H first and check things out to assess the work involved. Twelve wires might not be too bad at all depending on how everything is laid out in the 970H.

I offer some tips after doing my SDI mod to the 971H:

I apologize in advance if you are the master of soldering, I thought I was pretty good at soldering, but the small scale of the wires and pads threw me a little.

0) decide where to mount the SDI board and make sure that the wires will reach. In my opinion, the lock-nut on the BNC connector is sufficient as a mounting device – drill a hole in the player just large enough for the BCN connector to fit through. Watch those metal shavings! If you can use a punch to make the hole – that is much better.

1) Magnification and good lighting are needed – very small wires

2) My tack soldering technique: 15w iron max. Use the smallest point tip you can find for the iron and tin it. Strip about 1/32” of insulation off each wire end. Twist and tin each wire end just enough – no extra solder. Put a very small amount of solder on the end of the iron tip. Press the pre-tinned wire end to the post or pad you want it connected to. Press the iron tip with the small amount of solder onto both the post/pad and the wire end until the solder flows. Pull the iron tip away, but keep holding the wire in place until the solder solidifies.

3) When you are done – check with a magnifying glass! It is easy for stray wire strands to bridge pads. No need to re-assemble the player yet – plug it in and turn it on – if the LED on the SDI board does not come on – something is wrong – check everything.

FWIW: I have both the Oppo 970 (480i HDMI) and the 971 (480i sdi modded) feeding a VP30 with SDI/ABT102 but unfortunately to get close to 1:1 pixel matching (1366x768) I have to go analog to my display and HDCP makes that impossible.

FWIW: I have both the Oppo 970 (480i HDMI) and the 971 (480i sdi modded) feeding a VP30 with SDI/ABT102 but unfortunately to get close to 1:1 pixel matching (1366x768) I have to go analog to my display and HDCP makes that impossible.

Try it at non 1:1 pixel mapped then (for both SDI and HDMI), its still an interresting comparison and probably wouldn't mask as much as you'd think.

Cheers,
John.

...
My report was not so much to prove or disprove the differences between SDIi and HDMIi, as to confirm the reports that many have made that SDI appears to win out over the current implementations of 480/576i HDMI on most (or all so far?) players when outputting 480/576i.


Maybe I'm mis-reading what you're saying, but you didn't compare 480/576i HDMI/DVI to 480/576i SDI, you compared the SDI feed to a 480/576p feed on HDMI/DVI. As Bob and others already pointed out this isn't a useful comparison as you have invoked the players deinterlacing and processing for the HDMI feed...

John.

FWIW: I have both the Oppo 970 (480i HDMI) and the 971 (480i sdi modded) feeding a VP30 with SDI/ABT102 but unfortunately to get close to 1:1 pixel matching (1366x768) I have to go analog to my display and HDCP makes that impossible.

Talman, is that b/c your display is analog, or for another reason?

Talman, is that b/c your display is analog, or for another reason?

My display's native resolution is 1366x768 but will only accept 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i over the HDMI port. So the closest I can get is 720p.

Try it at non 1:1 pixel mapped then (for both SDI and HDMI), its still an interresting comparison and probably wouldn't mask as much as you'd think.

Wow--just made me think of something I hadn't before. I have compared 480i SDI into RGBHV @ 1360x768 and 480i HDMI to HDMI @ 720p but I haven't compared 480i SDI into HDMI @ 720p. I'll have to do that tonight and report back.

FWIW: In the comparison I did do above (analog @ 1:1 vs HDMI at 720p) 480i SDI was easily the better picture. I won't say it completely smoked it but the difference was considerable.

Thanks, usualsuspects! It never hurts to be reminded of good technique...:) One other tip I'll add to your already excellent list is to wear a grounding strap when working on digital ICs and do the work in a non static electricity environment. You never know when even a small static charge will take out a valuable IC and ruin your new SDI modification board or possibly even damage your player.

Thanks, usualsuspects! It never hurts to be reminded of good technique...:) One other tip I'll add to your already excellent list is to wear a grounding strap when working on digital ICs and do the work in a non static electricity environment. You never know when even a small static charge will take out a valuable IC and ruin your new SDI modification board or possibly even damage your player.

Forgot about ESD! Good point. One other thing - I put about 3 turns per inch of twist on the clock and ground wires (separated them first). This has been recommended by some.

Maybe I'm mis-reading what you're saying, but you didn't compare 480/576i HDMI/DVI to 480/576i SDI, you compared the SDI feed to a 480/576p feed on HDMI/DVI. As Bob and others already pointed out this isn't a useful comparison as you have invoked the players deinterlacing and processing for the HDMI feed...

John.John, see my edited posts above.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8062922&&#post8062922
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8070076&&#post8070076

I completely agree that you can only do a true comparison when BOTH SDI and HDMI 480/576 streams have NO processing involved in their output stream once the signal leaves the decoder. We know SDI is clean, it's just that so far we haven't seen a better or identical performance from HDMI at 480/576i. So we are all assuming (hoping?) that that is due to the fact that players tested so far all somehow process the 480/576i stream (beyond just adding HDCP) before it gets to the HDMI connector. We all agree (I think) that in theory there ought to be zero difference between the two.

So, I guess this debate can be viewed from 2 angles. One is more focused on what players we can buy off the shelf that have equal (or even better?) performance on HDMI 480/576i than that SAME player (or one which has the same decoder chip) fitted with SDI. This I think might rule out the OPPO 970H with HDMI vs the 971H with SDI, comparison.

The other is whether SDI is inherently better than the equivalent HDMI (with same colour space and bits of resolution) and if so, why the hell, as we can't see any reason why it should be!! This really requires say an OPPO 970H to be modded with SDI - nowhere near as simple as modding a 971H the Oppo people say. The connection points are all over the place and may in some cases only be available from a via, or worse still, from a buried via.

To cap off this discussion, say you did prove that one or the other was better on this particular player, a brand with a better decoder could usurp the results on either or both output formats. Don't forget too, that the differences may only be evident on some displays. The more scaling the display does, the more likely it is that the results will be masked by scaling artifacts.

In my comparison between the 971H DVI and SDI output, I got as close as I could to get the 2 equal, bar de-interlacing. I set the DVI res to match the SDI output, so no scaling should in theory be taking place inside the Faroudja. All other enhancements were set to OFF or ZERO, so again, no processing should be taking place.
But, isn't this exactly what we're on about here? We are assuming that no processing is taking place either inside the Faroudja OR the HDMIi garnering of the signal from the decoder to the DVI/HDMI connectors. It ain't going to be easy to find the perfect platform to do a just/scientific comparsion.

Ok, thanks, Dave...That might just be enough for me to figure it out! :)

I think I'll open up the 970H first and check things out to assess the work involved. Twelve wires might not be too bad at all depending on how everything is laid out in the 970H.

Thanks for the work Bob, It will be interesting to find out if we as a group stay on the line 'sdi is best' or that we can point to a few hdmi 480i players and say that is just as good. I mean even the biggest fans of sdi would feel a $150 hdmi player would be easer :).

Daniel.

Thanks for the work Bob, It will be interesting to find out if we as a group stay on the line 'sdi is best' or that we can point to a few hdmi 480i players and say that is just as good. I mean even the biggest fans of sdi would feel a $150 hdmi player would be easer :).

Daniel.
That's the idea. SDI is, even when you use a cheaper player as a transport, a rather expensive thing. There will certainly be a financial tipping point where the gains to be had aren't worth the money required.

Ok, I am going to provide a rather meaningless report to you people, but it is good enough to satisfy me. Last night, since I have both an Oppo 970H and a SDI modded Panny RP-82, I decided to do a little a little comparison even though I know full well that it is not in any way fair. I only used one test DVD The Fifth Element Superbit, as I know every little nuance about this particular title (or at least the parts that I watch over and over again).

Also let me preface it by saying that I ran both units through a Crystalio 2 using Gennum processing and fed as 1080p to my Sony Ruby's DVI input on a 114" High Power screen. The 970H was outputting 480i over HDMI and the RP-82 was outputting SDI that was performed by Immersive back when they were selling SDI cards for PCs (the Holograph 3D).

At first I preferred the Panny by a small margin...It was more detailed, yet smoother overall with better color saturation and a slightly more 3D look to it. But then I thought to myself that maybe I could make the 970H look just as good if I worked on the PQ via the C2's excellent set of tools. Well, what do you know...the biggest difference between these two could be chalked up to calibration!! By using the GetGray calibration disc I tweaked up the Y/C delay (one was off by 0.25 pixel and the other by 0.5 pixel) so that they were both perfect. I adjusted the color saturation and hue to make them as identical as possible, as well as performing a careful job adjusting black and white levels so that they were as identical as possible.

Once I adjusted the calibration on the 970H to look like the Panny as much as possible, I could not reliably tell which was which any more...They looked, to my untrained eyes, virtually identical, enough so that I am convinced that the 970H can be every bit as good as the SDI modded RP-82, orr at least so close that I really don't care which one I watch. If I were to really scrutinize for differences, the RP-82 might still be a hair more detailed and transparent than the 970H, but I really don't know if it is just because I convinced myself that it should be, or if it actually is.

A few caveats here:

1. I only used one test source, and maybe differences will show up using different material.
2. I am not the eagle-eyed viewer that some of you are. Though I think my ability to evaluate PQ is fairly good, I am sure that there are the "golden eyed" among us that will be able to see things that I can't.
3. The Crystalio 2 is an EXCELLENT processor and can bring out the best in any source. People with no external processor or a lesser processor might not be able to attain the same results.
4. Maybe I am just plain nuts! :)

The thing that I came away with after my little experiment was that even though there were visual differences between the two when simply plugged into the same processor/display, those differences could be wiped out through careful calibration. After matching the two sources as well as I could, I saw no reason to prefer the picture of one over the picture of the other - both of them looked absolutely incredible! If there are any differences, they are so small as to be meaningless to someone like myself. I also proved to myself just how important good processing is - I could have never equalized the two pictures if I didn't have a phenomenal processor to help me out, and in that case I would have definitely preferred the SDI, though still not by a HUGE margin.

Oh, so I have decided not to bother SDI modding my 970H...It simply is money and labor not well spent in my case.

You're preaching to the choir Bob. That's why they make isf guys like me;):p:D!!! I thought you had a VHD scaler?

.... Once I adjusted the calibration on the 970H to look like the Panny as much as possible, I could not reliably tell which was which any more...They looked, to my untrained eyes, virtually identical, enough so that I am convinced that the 970H can be every bit as good as the SDI modded RP-82, orr at least so close that I really don't care which one I watch. If I were to really scrutinize for differences, the RP-82 might still be a hair more detailed and transparent than the 970H, but I really don't know if it is just because I convinced myself that it should be, or if it actually is......

That is very good news Bob. It does not surprise me that Oppo would get it right. It may seem like I am a SDI “fanboy”, but I am not, I am interested in the best picture I can get – I don’t care if is via SDI, HDMI, or carrier pigeon. So far SDI inputs are not available on the upcoming Lumagen Radiance scalers, so I was hoping this mess would get straightened out before then. Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I would like to see a little more scientific comparison of SDI vs HDMI before I call it a closed case. I think the ultimate test is to record the raw data streams from SDI and HDMI and compare them. I know you can do this with SDI capture cards on a computer, but the HDCP paranoia police would make this difficult for HDMI. Looks like we are kind of stuck with subjective opinions of image quality, and I can accept that.

I thought you had a VHD scaler?
Yes, I do, but it has been moved to system #2. My primary VP is now the Crystalio 2...:)
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I would like to see a little more scientific comparison of SDI vs HDMI before I call it a closed case. I think the ultimate test is to record the raw data streams from SDI and HDMI and compare them.
Absolutely! My little experiment was anything but scientific and not meant to be anything more than a casual observation. When I ran my tests, I did so with the simple intention of deciding what was right FOR ME, and I simply posted my results to share my experience. Since I already owned both players, no investment in either time or money was necessary, and I really didn't care what was the outcome, as I already own and can use either player any time I want.

I just wanted to know for my own sake, and I recommend that each person perform the experiment for himself if he can get the opportunity. In my system, I plan on leaving the Panny connected so that I can perform more comparisons in the future, but my primary player will be the Oppo for a number of reasons unrelated to PQ:

1. It plays both SACD and DVDA discs and I have a fair collection of both. This saves me from keeping another dedicated player in my system just for audio purposes.
2. It plays back other video and audio formats that I may or may not have use for in the future, but since it is already there, I will always have the option.
3. Oppo has a very good track record of providing updated firmware, so I feel confident that this player will only get better with time.
4. It has less wear on it than my Panny.
5. Since the drive mechanism is newer, it reads a considerably larger portion of my home made DVD-Rs - the compatibility is higher.

Please do not take my report for anything more than it is meant to be - a casual observation. I'll leave the high tech comparisons to the people who are qualified to make them.

Absolutely! My little experiment was anything but scientific and not meant to be anything more than a casual observation.

I knew that my post would come across with a different tone than I intended. :(

Your post was clear that it was your observations and not a scientific experiment.
I greatly appreciate you sharing your observations with everyone. This is the kind of information that is very useful to me (and others I am sure). Thank you! :)

usualsuspects, I fully understood your tone and was not put off by it in the least. My constant reminders of my unscientific approach are due to comments I have received in a lot of other threads in the past, not this one. Sometimes people expect more from me than my limited knowledge and experience allows, so I've learned to constantly remind people of my lack of qualifications...:)

I have compared the Pioneer 868 SI and the Arcam 29 with interlaced HDMI and SDI. SDI wins. I also have the Oppo 970 and rather like it.

I have compared the Pioneer 868 SI and the Arcam 29 with interlaced HDMI and SDI. SDI wins. I also have the Oppo 970 and rather like it.
Could you please be more specific about what you like about Oppo 970? thanks.

Bob,
Great job. You have a combined knowledge that is more than most of us, coupled with the equipment and excellent callibration skills - I trust your report. The tendency to justify the cost of SDI mod can sometimes make us see what is not there and I'm glad you can see thru that.

Great to hear!

Did you have a chance to run the resolution patterns on Avia or DVE?

Did you have a chance to run the resolution patterns on Avia or DVE?
No, but I'll be glad to check them out for you. Since I have only looked at resolution patterns in passing in the past and really don't know what to look for when examining them, could you tell me how to evaluate resolution performance properly?

No, but I'll be glad to check them out for you. Since I have only looked at resolution patterns in passing in the past and really don't know what to look for when examining them, could you tell me how to evaluate resolution performance properly?
Basically, if the point at which you can still make out discrete lines on the resolution bars, rather than just a blurry fuzz, is the resolution of your display. The more the better, naturally.

Of course, remember that it's measuring the res of your entire system, not just the DVD player, so things are going to seem worse than they actually are.

The 970 isn't as good as the bst SDI players out there (Arcams, Onkyos, Philips etc) but it will happily take on the more basic SDI modded player and beat them, like the Pioneers and latest Denons. I don't think this is all down to the SDI / HDMI interfaces but allot has to do with the quality of the MPEG decoder used, and the Oppo one is very good. Think of it as a the good value end with top performance. tbh I prefer it most things I have seen outside the top SDI mods. It does have HDCP however :(

I believe the Mediatek MPEG decoder in the 970H is generally regarded to be as good or better than what's in the other players you mention - unless you can be more specific.

larry

No that is pretty much it, the mk is a good chip, some in other players are less good. The 970 won't satisfy the 963SDI crowd but for many others it will be more than fit for purpose.

No that is pretty much it, the mk is a good chip, some in other players are less good. The 970 won't satisfy the 963SDI crowd but for many others it will be more than fit for purpose.
The Mediatek would probably be my third of fourth choice when it comes to MPEG decoders (behind ST, old Matsushita, and possibly Mitsubishi). It's a good chip, very user friendly too, it just lacks that last 5% of perfection. It'd definately take one over an ESS or an LSI.

The Mediatek would probably be my third of fourth choice when it comes to MPEG decoders (behind ST, old Matsushita, and possibly Mitsubishi). It's a good chip, very user friendly too, it just lacks that last 5% of perfection. It'd definately take one over an ESS or an LSI.
Where would you rate the Sigma Design and Broadcom decoders? Thanks!

Where would you rate the Sigma Design and Broadcom decoders? Thanks!
I didn't think the Sigma's were modable (don't they have a non-defeatable deinterlacer built in?), and I'm not familiar with the latter.

PMS hinted a while ago that the HD MediaBox is SDI modable, but it's gone quiet since.
That features the Sigma MPEG decoder.

The Broadcom is the ones that Casper has modified on the Toshiba HD-DVD player and the SKY HD box.

Now that is interesting about the PMS HD Mediabox perhaps being SDI modable !
I will post over at the PixelMagicForum to inquire further.

My current thinking was to get the XCARD with SDI output and see how that goes into the likes of a Lumagen.
But methinks I would prefer the likes of the Mediabox with SDI.

- Andy

It's also got an auto-EDID function so I wonder if the Lumagen can get 480/576i out of the HDMI socket a la stoomonster's technique.

PMS hinted a while ago that the HD MediaBox is SDI modable, but it's gone quiet since.
That features the Sigma MPEG decoder.

The Broadcom is the ones that Casper has modified on the Toshiba HD-DVD player and the SKY HD box.

Well, it should have come with SDI already coming from a scaler company......

Well, it should have come with SDI already coming from a scaler company......

It has a HDMI output on it, I think the HDCP police don't like it if you have an un-encrypted digital output. Apparently (for now) you can have an un-encrypted digital input, but not an output. I have never seen a consumer electronics device that came from the factory with a SDI output. Professional stuff - yes - consumer - no.

It has a HDMI output on it, I think the HDCP police don't like it if you have an un-encrypted digital output. Apparently (for now) you can have an un-encrypted digital input, but not an output. I have never seen a consumer electronics device that came from the factory with a SDI output. Professional stuff - yes - consumer - no.

Interesting! Then it should have sdi input so we can record 480i SD or HD ;)

Interesting! Then it should have sdi input so we can record 480i SD or HD ;)

I don't see a problem with that, HD-SDI input would be fine. :)

The 970 isn't as good as the bst SDI players out there (Arcams, Onkyos, Philips etc) but it will happily take on the more basic SDI modded player and beat them, like the Pioneers and latest Denons. I don't think this is all down to the SDI / HDMI interfaces but allot has to do with the quality of the MPEG decoder used, and the Oppo one is very good. Think of it as a the good value end with top performance. tbh I prefer it most things I have seen outside the top SDI mods. It does have HDCP however :(


What about the older Denons like the 2900 which I have SDI modded? I did a short comparision just a week ago using my VP30. Note that i have calibrated my PQ with the Pio player, greyscale and all but just did some basic brightness contrast calibration for the Denon.

On my SDI Denon 2900 out to the VP30, the initial impression was that it had almost no EE and was less noisy. But it defintely did seem softer then the Pio. I could increase the sharpness using the VP30 to almost equal Pio but then it would introduce too much EE that defeated the purpose. Perhaps a better sharpness control or the Edge Enhancement feature in the Vantage would do much better. The picture overall had that smoother film look.

On my Pio DV79 480i out via HDMi to the VP30, it did seem that the picture was more 3D and sharper. But EE was there even at minimum sharpness. I was using a set memory mode that already decreased the chroma enhancement but 2 steps. I find that anything more and EE is even more obvious. This 3D pop sharpness did seem to come with more noise in the areas with flat colours. Picture did at times seem very videoish..

So now I am deciding between keeping the Denon 2900 or selling it off and just keeping the Pio. But I still love the speed and layer switching of the Denon. It just beats the Pio hands down in usability.

Oliver

It has a HDMI output on it, I think the HDCP police don't like it if you have an un-encrypted digital output. Apparently (for now) you can have an un-encrypted digital input, but not an output. I have never seen a consumer electronics device that came from the factory with a SDI output. Professional stuff - yes - consumer - no.
The HDMI output on HDMB doesn't have HDCP. For you to get anything onto a harddrive, you would have had to have stripped it anyway.

What about the older Denons like the 2900 which I have SDI modded? I did a short comparision just a week ago using my VP30. Note that i have calibrated my PQ with the Pio player, greyscale and all but just did some basic brightness contrast calibration for the Denon.

On my SDI Denon 2900 out to the VP30, the initial impression was that it had almost no EE and was less noisy. But it defintely did seem softer then the Pio. I could increase the sharpness using the VP30 to almost equal Pio but then it would introduce too much EE that defeated the purpose. Perhaps a better sharpness control or the Edge Enhancement feature in the Vantage would do much better. The picture overall had that smoother film look.

On my Pio DV79 480i out via HDMi to the VP30, it did seem that the picture was more 3D and sharper. But EE was there even at minimum sharpness. I was using a set memory mode that already decreased the chroma enhancement but 2 steps. I find that anything more and EE is even more obvious. This 3D pop sharpness did seem to come with more noise in the areas with flat colours. Picture did at times seem very videoish..

So now I am deciding between keeping the Denon 2900 or selling it off and just keeping the Pio. But I still love the speed and layer switching of the Denon. It just beats the Pio hands down in usability.

Oliver
The 2900 is different from the majority of Denons in that it uses a Mitsubishi chip rather than an ESS one. IMHO the Mitsubishi is the better chip.

Which modifiable DVD player has the best overall SDI video performance, regardless of cost.

Ok, I checked out some resolution patterns on 3 different players - the Toshiba HD-A1 upscaled 1080i HDMI, the Oppo 970H 480i HDMI, and the Panasonic RP-82 480i SDI using test patterns from Avia and GetGray calibration discs.

I used GetGray first as I know the author went to painstaking lengths to insure the utmost in accuracy and checked carefully to make sure that the MPEG encoding did not affect levels or have other detrimental effects to the patterns. The first pattern is a group of 16 blocks of frequency bursts (sine) which range from 0.5 mhz to 6.0 mhz in 0.5 mhz increments. All three players produced crisp, clear lines with no signs of blurriness or bleeding between the lines. Then I switched to the second pattern which had 4 square wave bursts at 1.6875, 2.25, 3.375, and 6.75 mhz and once again all three players produced very crisp, sharp patterns at all frequencies.

Then I switched to the Avia disc, which is already known to have issues with its MPEG encoding, though I don't know if and to what extent the issues extend to the resolution patterns. On the TVL wedge roll patterns both the HD-A1 and the RP-82 looked great, but the 970H showed a bit of "distortion" in the area where the non parallel lines are closest together. The 4 circles in the corners looked great on all players. The sweeps also looked fine on all 3 players. Then came the multi bursts - Once again the HD-A1 and RP-82 were crisp and clear at all frequencies, but the 970H had some graying and/or blurring in the middle of the 5.0 mhz bursts.

Now maybe I just don't know what to look for, but from what I saw, my conclusion was that the HD-A1 and RP-82 passed the resolution tests with ease, while the 970H seemed to have a problem above 5.0 mhz, but since it showed up only on the Avia disc and not the GetGray, I have to question where the problem really lies - in the disc or in the player.

All three players showed EE on the sharpness pattern and I could not get rid of it regardless of any settings in the players, video processor, or projector.

Hopefully some of you with more experience can shed some light on my findings, as well as explain to me how these "failures" would manifest themselves in actual picture quality. The most distressing thing to me was the fact that I could not get rid of the EE despite my best efforts...:(

All three players showed EE on the sharpness pattern and I could not get rid of it regardless of any settings in the players, video processor, or projector.


I am surprised by that. Have you tried a player directly connected to your projector?

Have you tried a player directly connected to your projector?
No, but I will. I can connect either the HD-A1 or 970H direct via HDMI, but the RP-82's only digital output is SDI and my Ruby has no SDI input. BTW, I also have sharpness set to minimum on the players, in the VP, and in the PJ.

John, see my edited posts above.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8062922&&#post8062922
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8070076&&#post8070076

I completely agree that you can only do a true comparison when BOTH SDI and HDMI 480/576 streams have NO processing involved in their output stream once the signal leaves the decoder. We know SDI is clean, it's just that so far we haven't seen a better or identical performance from HDMI at 480/576i. So we are all assuming (hoping?) that that is due to the fact that players tested so far all somehow process the 480/576i stream (beyond just adding HDCP) before it gets to the HDMI connector. We all agree (I think) that in theory there ought to be zero difference between the two.

So, I guess this debate can be viewed from 2 angles. One is more focused on what players we can buy off the shelf that have equal (or even better?) performance on HDMI 480/576i than that SAME player (or one which has the same decoder chip) fitted with SDI. This I think might rule out the OPPO 970H with HDMI vs the 971H with SDI, comparison.

The other is whether SDI is inherently better than the equivalent HDMI (with same colour space and bits of resolution) and if so, why the hell, as we can't see any reason why it should be!! This really requires say an OPPO 970H to be modded with SDI - nowhere near as simple as modding a 971H the Oppo people say. The connection points are all over the place and may in some cases only be available from a via, or worse still, from a buried via.

To cap off this discussion, say you did prove that one or the other was better on this particular player, a brand with a better decoder could usurp the results on either or both output formats. Don't forget too, that the differences may only be evident on some displays. The more scaling the display does, the more likely it is that the results will be masked by scaling artifacts.

In my comparison between the 971H DVI and SDI output, I got as close as I could to get the 2 equal, bar de-interlacing. I set the DVI res to match the SDI output, so no scaling should in theory be taking place inside the Faroudja. All other enhancements were set to OFF or ZERO, so again, no processing should be taking place.
But, isn't this exactly what we're on about here? We are assuming that no processing is taking place either inside the Faroudja OR the HDMIi garnering of the signal from the decoder to the DVI/HDMI connectors. It ain't going to be easy to find the perfect platform to do a just/scientific comparsion.

Hi Phil,

I agree with absolutley everything up until the last paragraph! The key thing being the "bar de-interlacing" statement, this is actually a major peice of processing that if not done well can introduce all the artifacts you described as differences.

Anyway, Bobs comparison is damn helpful, woudl be interresting to find out if the Oppo 970 res issues described don't occur with an SDI modded player of the same type, or if it is just an avia encode problem. The the problems doesn't exist in SDI mode then, wow, someoen has really screwed up their HDMI implementation! Which I guess isn't a surprise given how many other seeem to have.

John.

The 2900 is different from the majority of Denons in that it uses a Mitsubishi chip rather than an ESS one. IMHO the Mitsubishi is the better chip.

Its also the one where denon did there best to convince mitsubushi to fix most of the CUE problems. The result is a 'ok' chip with a superfast menu/layer system. I use a 2900vM+sdi myself only problem is the transport is failure happy at times :(.

Daniel.

Which modifiable DVD player has the best overall SDI video performance, regardless of cost.Most people reckon the Philips DV963 SDI is the player to beat, better than all the Pioneers and Panasonics. Those who have ALSO tried the Arcam DV-79, or especially DV-29, say they edge it, and have better audio. I clearly recall that Gordon Fraser at Convergent-AV said the best picture he had seen via SDI was from a Linn Unidisc. I don't recall which version, but they are all superb, and expensive. I haven't seen one, but recommendations don't come any more reliable.
I completely agree that you can only do a true comparison when BOTH SDI and HDMI 480/576 streams have NO processing involved in their output stream once the signal leaves the decoder. We know SDI is clean, it's just that so far we haven't seen a better or identical performance from HDMI at 480/576i. So we are all assuming (hoping?) that that is due to the fact that players tested so far all somehow process the 480/576i stream (beyond just adding HDCP) before it gets to the HDMI connector. We all agree (I think) that in theory there ought to be zero difference between the twoI might be preaching to the converted, but there are several reasons why an interlaced HDMI output may be worse than SDI. The MPEG decoder output is interlaced component video, and it is often transcoded to RGB for HDMI transmission. I think there are also lots of hue, saturation, contrast, gamma and sharpness "enhancements" that are applied before output, and they always degrade the pi=cture in this context. (Of course, if these aberations are encoded on the disc, there is nothing SDI can do to avoid them, bar making it any worse).

The decoder output is also partially chroma down-sampled (4:2:2), and up-sampling to 4:4:4 is often performed before HDMI output. This is not always the case, and the best Arcam, Marantz and Pioneer machines have options to avoid at least some of these processes. Ironic that the more you pay, the less (processing) you can get.

What would be really interesting to find out is whether video processors that can configure the HDMI EDID data to force the player to output say 480i instead of 480p over HDMI, even where there is not user option, can get a bit more performance from players that were previously considered unsuitable for processors.

Nick

The 2900 is a nice player, it went down hill after that for these mid priced Denons, I would not change it. A good player is a good player no matter it's age as long as it still works and plays discs (Tag owners please note!!).

I agree about the 2900 - they were selling cheap at the end too - the XX10 range simply weren't as good although people were clammering for them.
I don't think it's considered the best PQ though - the Arcam DV29 is the best I've seen, but I never got long enough with it to see how it was in other areas. I haven't seen the Linn.

A Unidisc would be about the only thing I'd trade my 963 for, but boy are those things expensive.

Ok, I checked out some resolution patterns on 3 different players - the Toshiba HD-A1 upscaled 1080i HDMI, the Oppo 970H 480i HDMI, and the Panasonic RP-82 480i SDI using test patterns from Avia and GetGray calibration discs. (

Bob... Your observations echo those I had back when I was comparing various setups thru an Iscan HD. I found it nearly impossible to get rid of some amount of EE, especially the line echo to the left side of dark elements on a bright back ground.

The OPPO 971H, while a can of worms in it's own right, seemed to eliminate most EE when choosing the LOW or OFF sharpness setting. However, the OPPO did come with a seperate list of issues.

In the general area of EE management, I am still impressed with the edge and sharpness controls on the Panny RP-91 under 480p. Of course the deinterlacing of video material is not benchmark, but over all image quality tweaking is very good.

Unfortunately, none of these excellent controls were available vias a SDI hack, and the RP-91/SDI showed similar levels of EE as other SDI equipped players I have tried.

I never tried a Denon 5900/SDI, but I understand it is very clean according to Kris.

I would love to see a SDI device designed to tweak horizontal and vertical detail as well as low, mid and high frequency sharpness. Hey, throw in some noise reduction capability and it would be an awesome box. certainly something like that for HDMI would also be wonderful.

I am confused about EE. Are we talking about EE on some disks, or general EE that won’t go away and is present on all sources? I don’t see any EE on Avia. Some DVD producers are very good about not adding any EE (Blue Underground for example), and some are random - never know what kind of transfer you will get (MGM for example).

I'm talking more about the inherent EE associated with NTSC video, although you're right about some titles, which because of poor mastering have additional EE challanges.

I'm talking more about the inherent EE associated with NTSC video, although you're right about some titles, which because of poor mastering have additional EE challanges.

Is this related to Y/C delay or is it a separate issue? I have not heard talk of inherent EE on NTSC video before. Do you have a link you could point me at for further study? Thanks!

The Linn Unidisc SDI very well ;)

The Linn Unidisc SDI very well ;)
Is that to say you've got one?

The artifacts inherent in NTSC video are not really EE. I mistakenly lump them into that category, which should be reserved for true edge enhancement problems as a result of a production choice or as a video display artifact.

Y/C lumanance/color sync error, is something different and not something I have noticed on an SDI signal path.

I'll see what links I can find which will better explain the NTSC artifacts.

Is this related to Y/C delay or is it a separate issue? I have not heard talk of inherent EE on NTSC video before. Do you have a link you could point me at for further study? Thanks!

Most people reckon the Philips DV963 SDI is the player to beat, better than all the Pioneers and Panasonics. Those who have ALSO tried the Arcam DV-79, or especially DV-29, say they edge it, and have better audio.
I've been told the 963 beats the Arcams by a very small margin in image quality. However, it clearly gets its butt beaten in audio.

However, it clearly gets its butt beaten in audio.
Not that there's a single 963SA owner in the world who hasn't set theirs off to someone in Asia to tweak. In fact, I hear not modifying it is illegal in some juristictions.

Nice design, terrible parts.

Not that there's a single 963SA owner in the world who hasn't set theirs off to someone in Asia to tweak.
Blimey - It looks like I have some reading to do!

Blimey - It looks like I have some reading to do!
They really sound pretty average without a few tweaks.

The story is that the design team made this really impressive but expensive to manufacture player, but their bosses went "oi! too expensive", so rather than just toning it down, they kept the design and used cheaper parts with mind to the fact that people can just take out a soldering iron and replace things. Even just replacing the AD1895A with an AD1896 makes a big difference. I really wish they hadn't used those horrible AD1955 DACs though...

I don't mean to sound critical here, guys, but this thread is sounding very much like one of those "Kimber Kable's Super Silver Premium Speaker Connects have a more detailed midrange silkiness, while Sunny Cable's Time Aligned Supreme Edition Platinum Series Connects provide a much wider, lush bass response with just a hint of delicious sarcasm in the upper mid frequencies" kind of thread. I personally prefer to use coat hangers strung together with duct tape and alligator clips, so I guess I won't be able to contribute much to these types of conversations. Anyway, you boys have fun! :p

Hey Bob - if you can tell the difference between yout VHD and C2, I'm sure you'd be able to tell the difference between MPEG decoders on SDI players. It's not subtle in some cases.

I don't mean to sound critical here, guys, but this thread is sounding very much like one of those "Kimber Kable's Super Silver Premium Speaker Connects have a more detailed midrange silkiness, while Sunny Cable's Time Aligned Supreme Edition Platinum Series Connects provide a much wider, lush bass response with just a hint of delicious sarcasm in the upper mid frequencies" kind of thread. I personally prefer to use coat hangers strung together with duct tape and alligator clips, so I guess I won't be able to contribute much to these types of conversations. Anyway, you boys have fun! :p
When you're looking for the last 5% of performance you start looking in the more obscure places. If you're just after the main 95%, you don't need to.

You may find though, that searching for the extra 5% is heaps of fun even if nothing else.

Is that to say you've got one?

Too rich for me (young twins) but a friend did one. It was excellent.

Where could I get my hands on a Philips DV963?

I am confused about EE. Are we talking about EE on some disks, or general EE that won’t go away and is present on all sources? I don’t see any EE on Avia. Some DVD producers are very good about not adding any EE (Blue Underground for example), and some are random - never know what kind of transfer you will get (MGM for example).

FYI.....
Please don't confuse "EE" (Edge Enhancement) with "Ringing". EE is usually intentional in nature when the producer of the DVD, etc. decides to add it to make the image appear to be sharper on those 32" NTSC TVs. Clearly he's not in the 21st Century yet with HDTVs and lack of need for EE.

Ringing is usually caused by something in the equipment chain like cables, bad connections, not enough bandwidth to pass the intended signal, etc.

They can look the same when viewing some test patterns, but don't automatically think it's one or the other without ruling each of them out in your system.

FYI.....
Please don't confuse "EE" (Edge Enhancement) with "Ringing". EE is usually intentional in nature when the producer of the DVD, etc. decides to add it to make the image appear to be sharper on those 32" NTSC TVs. Clearly he's not in the 21st Century yet with HDTVs and lack of need for EE.

Ringing is usually caused by something in the equipment chain like cables, bad connections, not enough bandwidth to pass the intended signal, etc.

They can look the same when viewing some test patterns, but don't automatically think it's one or the other without ruling each of them out in your system.

Ahhh... That makes sense. I had never heard of EE as a "natural phenomena”, always as an intended artifact by DVD producers. Perhaps what some of the previous posters are talking about IS ringing (or perhaps not, maybe they mean something else entirely). Thanks for the clarification.

No problem. I think this link gives a good idea of what can cause ringing: http://extron.com/technology/archive.asp?id=cableselect

Where could I get my hands on a Philips DV963?
Ebay/audiogon. Philips replaced it with an inferior machine.

When you're looking for the last 5% of performance you start looking in the more obscure places. If you're just after the main 95%, you don't need to.

You may find though, that searching for the extra 5% is heaps of fun even if nothing else.

You mean heaps of $$ instead of fun don't you :), Who of you dares to tell 'friends' they use a dvd-chain thats over 5k without being called a weirdo.

Daniel.

You mean heaps of $$ instead of fun don't you :), Who of you dares to tell 'friends' they use a dvd-chain thats over 5k without being called a weirdo.
I've bought my Philips 963 used from Ebay and installed the PixelMagic SDI mod myself. This was overall noticably cheaper compared to buying a top of the line DVD player.

Madshi - had you soldered before? I keep wodering about doing it myself but the last time I soldered anything was about 20 years ago.

It was my first soldering job ever. However, I had asked my dad to do it before (he is learned electrician) and he didn't want to do it. He said he was afraid of destroying the DVD player, because the soldering points were too small. I think it's not easy to do, but possible, if you have calm hands.

I guess it depends on the price I get the 693 for :)

You mean heaps of $$ instead of fun don't you :), Who of you dares to tell 'friends' they use a dvd-chain thats over 5k without being called a weirdo.

Daniel.
Come on; who doesn't think sanding down the sides of one's DVD collection and colouring them in with a green magic marker, and paying $500+ for the tools to do it, is a great idea? That's right, no one!

I've bought my Philips 963 used from Ebay and installed the PixelMagic SDI mod myself. This was overall noticably cheaper compared to buying a top of the line DVD player.
You soldered it yourself? You mean onto the ribbon cable bridge for the deinterlacer board? My god.

I failed miserably when I tried to do mine.

You soldered it yourself? You mean onto the ribbon cable bridge for the deinterlacer board? My god.

I failed miserably when I tried to do mine.
Yep, I did that successfully myself, as my first soldering job ever. <proud> :)

It doesn't look very nice/professional - but it works just beautifully.

Way to go Madshi:)!!!

http://madshi.net/icon_crazy.gif

What the heck is That???:p

(That's me being tickled by my girl friend...)

TMI, TMI, TMI....................

I noticed a discussion in this thread related to mediatek's mpeg decoder. I am not familiar with mediatek. I found out a mediatek video processor is the internal processor on a LCD I am looking at. I know about genesis, realta, and pixelworks but have not heard of mediatek. I am assuming that the media tek video processing capabilities is far below the premium chips mentioned above. Does anyone have experince with mediatek who could shed some light for me. I am curious about deinterlacing(bob vs weave), diagonal filtering, and noise reduction.

Thanks for the info.

Check out www.hometheaterhifi.com . Do a search for that. I think there are some nice reviews, etc of products with the Mediatek. Also check the DVD Benchmark.

I noticed a discussion in this thread related to mediatek's mpeg decoder. I am not familiar with mediatek. I found out a mediatek video processor is the internal processor on a LCD I am looking at. I know about genesis, realta, and pixelworks but have not heard of mediatek. I am assuming that the media tek video processing capabilities is far below the premium chips mentioned above. Does anyone have experince with mediatek who could shed some light for me. I am curious about deinterlacing(bob vs weave), diagonal filtering, and noise reduction.

Thanks for the info.
We've been talking about the Mediatek MT1389 series, used for its primary purpose of MPEG decoding. The chip does indeed have a deinterlacer (and scaler?) built in, but it's not on the same level as the Realta, VXP, ABT, National AVC2510, Faroudja 23x0, SiI504, and so forth. As far as imbedded deinterlacers in SoC processors go, it's one of the better ones, but you can still do much better if you're willing to pay for it.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Is there a website that provides detial on what internal precessors are in what sets/manafactures/models?

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Is there a website that provides detial on what internal precessors are in what sets/manafactures/models?
None complete or recent enought to be of any value, I'm afraid.

not true, the fact that HDCP has been added to HDMI would give SDI the upper hand in a purity stand point

Don't worry Gary, Targus is notorious from taking book theory and creating firm assertions from it, having never looked at the results first hand. How many SDI mods have you performed? Right. Good enough for me.

also the fact the no players with mpeg decoders as good as the Panasonics have HDMI output, so SDI is better than HDMI in every way because of the quality of mpeg decoders in the units we are comparing ;)

-Gary

But see that's experience talking, so it's over his head...

A "blanket" statement, with very little basis in reality....like most of the other posts by the SDI experts in this thread.

You really need to offer something other than insults directed at people with real-world experience to gain traction. Because, right now, you're the engineer-troll that lives under the bridge.

Because, right now, you're the engineer-troll that lives under the bridge.


You're responding to a post I made in July of last year...and you're calling me a troll?

What did you bring to this thread?

You're obviously angry that you've had your ass handed to you in other threads.

Get over it, and stop trolling.

Who of you dares to tell 'friends' they use a dvd-chain thats over 5k without being called a weirdo.

:cool: Only if asked.

You're responding to a post I made in July of last year...and you're calling me a troll?

Does that mean you didn't say it? Is there a statute of limitations?

What did you bring to this thread?

I'd rather become more educated and observe instead of bringing constant arrogant negativity to every discussion I participate in, which is your MO.

You're obviously angry that you've had your ass handed to you in other threads.

Get over it, and stop trolling.

There's no link you can provide that substantiates that claim, although I'm sure it helps your self-esteem in some odd way. :confused:

I'd rather become more educated and observe instead of bringing constant arrogant negativity to every discussion I participate in,

Then why do you act like an arrogant troll?

There's no link you can provide that substantiates that claim

There's a link under your name, that will provide much entertainment for anyone who clicks on it.

An SDI modded RP-82 into a Lumagen HDQ is a wonderful thing.
To those who think that 480i HDMI has the same PQ as SDI are ....well...just wrong.
Simple as that

shame on you guys!

Closing this thread.