Her state in S6 is of course in part a metaphor for the listless, depressed, confused stage many twentysomethings go through when school/college is over

The main storyline of S2 is a teen girl, falling in love for the first time, only to discover that the man she loves is a torturing, tormenting monster. She alone can save the world by killing him. As the final twist of the knife, we find out the killing isn't necessary. The monster can be redeemed. But the redemption comes a moment too late forcing Buffy to kill, not the monster who deserves it, but the innocent man she loves. Her reward for saving the world? The girl who has been abandoned by her father is now tossed out of the house by her mother, is wanted by the police for murder, and is set to wander the streets alone. That's dark.

The main storylines of S6? Twentysomething is bored and mopey because she has to get a job to pay the bills. She has sex with a boyfriend she doesn't love or even like. Her old boyfriend comes back with a really nice girlfriend. Another twentysomething has fears of commitment and treats his girlfriend poorly. A younger sister engages in minor shoplifting to get some attention. We have a few "very special episodes" were we learn that drugs are bad. These story lines may be realistic. They may be something you can relate to. But, I'm sorry; I don't see them as "darker, grittier, and more hopeless than any other". It's Sunnydale Creek.

EDIT - Well, those are my thoughts. It be interesting to see what the ME gang thought as well. I nver bought the S6 DVD's. Is there information in the commentaries on what they were trying to accomplish with S6? Would that make the set worthwhile, even if I'm not a fan of the episodes themselves?

I didn't really care for the last few seasons. I really did not like the Spike/boyfriend element. Another Vamp with a soul. Been there done that. Though I have to admit that season does have one of my favorite conversations.

Riley: "Boy do I have stories to tell you" Buffy: "Did you die?" Riley: "Umm no." Buffy: "Got ya beat."

There were some good elements in those last seasons. Just not up to the others levels.

Please add some comments about the DVD here and there. Technically this is a TV show and should be in another forum. Somebody is bound to complain and I'll have to move it. :)

larry

to me,Buffy really ended after season 5,6 and 7 were lousy,but with good Buffy-Spike moments here and there.Also way too much Dawn,Tara and Anya,those lousy characters pretty much ruined those seasons for me.

I really liked season 6, seasons 5 and 7 were the downpoints for me.

Seasons 6+7 can only be properly viewed on DVD I think. Nearly cancelled and only able to survive by moving to a new network, the show was recreated in its last two seasons. People were already watching the earlier seasons on DVD, a fact that the writers were fully aware of. Finding themselves on a network even smaller than the WB, and probably feeling like they were living on borrowed time, they pretty much gave up the concept of a weekly tv show and went for an overall story and mood that could only be realized by back to back viewing of episodes. The last two seasons were designed to be viewed on dvd as opposed to attracting a weekly audience with stand alone episodes. Joss mentions in his commentary for the first episode of S7 that he was carefully planting seeds to where the season was going, foreshadowing events. That same style is evident in S6-the season is intended to be viewed as a whole, in a much shorter time than a broadcast season allows. To even to begin to understand what they were trying to do requires viewing the seasons on dvd in their entirety...
There Larry, hows that? Justify it being on this forum? :)

What about PQ? I have the disc 1 of Season one at home now? Will I be disappointed?

larry

Both seasons 6 & 7 worked much better on dvd (especially season 6). They flowed better than they did on the air witih all of the breaks, IMO. I loved all of the seasons (just some more than others). Seasons 3, 5 & 2 were the best overall, but season 6 was deliciously dark and definitely had its moments.

How someone can not see season 6 as dark must have never really seen it. Warren kills an innocent girl after him and the rest of the trio were going to rape her. Willow's girlfriend was shot to death. Willow brutally tortured and skinned Warren alive and then incenerated him. That's as darks as it gets my friends. Willows addiction just about made her lose everything. Willow raised the dead. How is all of that not dark (I left out a lot too, obviously)? It was dark and gritty. I think you need another viewing. it seemed darker and grittier the second time around on dvd.

Season 2 had it's share of darkness sure, but the overall TONE of seaosn 6 was darker and for a longer period. Buffy killed Angel to save the world, but Willow tortured and killed Warren in a horribly brutal fashion simply to get revenge. That is darker.

What about PQ? I have the disc 1 of Season one at home now? Will I be disappointed?

larry


Well, it depends. It can look ok at times, but a little too dark at times. It's shot on Super 16mm and their budget was lower in season 1. I think they start shooting on Super 35mm by seasons 3 or 4. The quality greatly improves with each season until the point where it has a movie quality look most of the time.

I was not crazy about the last two seasons when I watched them but would probably have to watch them again to be sure. There were, however, fantastic individual shows, like Once More With Feeling, Selfless, Conversations With Dead People, Storyteller, and Lies Your Parents Told You (which is a great bookend with Fool for Love).

Mtyson,

You had I have a different view of the word "dark." The scenes you mention may be violent, but I wouldn't call them dark. I was just watching a movie today where a guy gets nail-gunned. It was a gruesome scene, but I don't think anyone would call the movie "dark".

Furthermore, these scenes you describe happen in S6, but they aren't what S6 "is all about." If you go back and read what you and others have written to describe S6, those aren't the core scenes. I think of S2 as being dark, not because of a few violent scenes, but because the fundamental theme of the entire season is "dark". (again, my opinion here).

As for the killings, having one of our heroes track and kill an evil murderer isn't dark. It's a scene of justice. It's one that people cheer. Having one of our heroes forced to track down and kill one of our heroes? Now that's dark.

The Willow thing could have been dark. The darkness wouldn't have been the murder itself, but the degeneration of sweet Willow Rosenberg into a power-mad witch. But we were robbed of that storyline by the whole crackmagik development. That isn't Willow doing the killing, but a possessed Willow under the influence of the evil crackmagik. No more "dark" than seeing the misdeeds of alternative universe vampWillow.

Oh - and just a minor technical point, S1 & S2 were filmed in Super 16mm. S3+ were filmed in "regular" 35mm.

Mtyson,

You had I have a different view of the word "dark." The scenes you mention may be violent, but I wouldn't call them dark. I was just watching a movie today where a guy gets nail-gunned. It was a gruesome scene, but I don't think anyone would call the movie "dark".

Furthermore, these scenes you describe happen in S6, but they aren't what S6 "is all about." If you go back and read what you and others have written to describe S6, those aren't the core scenes. I think of S2 as being dark, not because of a few violent scenes, but because the fundamental theme of the entire season is "dark". (again, my opinion here).

As for the killings, having one of our heroes track and kill an evil murderer isn't dark. It's a scene of justice. It's one that people cheer. Having one of our heroes forced to track down and kill one of our heroes? Now that's dark.

The Willow thing could have been dark. The darkness wouldn't have been the murder itself, but the degeneration of sweet Willow Rosenberg into a power-mad witch. But we were robbed of that storyline by the whole crackmagik development. That isn't Willow doing the killing, but a possessed Willow under the influence of the evil crackmagik. No more "dark" than seeing the misdeeds of alternative universe vampWillow.

Oh - and just a minor technical point, S1 & S2 were filmed in Super 16mm. S3+ were filmed in "regular" 35mm.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. :) Besides the things I pointed out were just parts of why it was dark. I could do the same thing you just did and say why season 2 wasn't dark. To me the overall tone of the season was just all around dark.

Dark:

6: Characterized by gloom.

Gloom:

2:

A: An atmosphere of melancholy or depression.
B: A state of melancholy or depression; despondency.

Melancholy:

Sadness or depression of the spirits; gloom

Dark:

13: Having richness or depth


Sounds like Season 6 to me. :D

The main storylines of S6? Twentysomething is bored and mopey because she has to get a job to pay the bills. She has sex with a boyfriend she doesn't love or even like. Her old boyfriend comes back with a really nice girlfriend. Another twentysomething has fears of commitment and treats his girlfriend poorly. A younger sister engages in minor shoplifting to get some attention. We have a few "very special episodes" were we learn that drugs are bad. These story lines may be realistic. They may be something you can relate to. But, I'm sorry; I don't see them as "darker, grittier, and more hopeless than any other". It's Sunnydale Creek.

[QUOTE]?
There is the little thing about being torn out of what seems like heaven and brought back to a world that now seems like Hell. Thats a little on the dark side.

I think the definitions I posted above pretty much proved the darkness of season 6. It can now no longer be disputed IMO. :D

Lets see if we can get back on track...
S2 is the only season that ends with no sense of affirmation of life, so in at least that sense it is the darkest. Buffy is definately lost in despair at the end, her "victory" made hollow by her seemingly having no choice in her actions. Even in S5 when she chooses death its at least a noble sacrifice and a choice she made to die nobly for the good of others. In 2 she saves the world but only by ridding it of the one person who made her life worthwhile. She seems trapped by fate with no say in the outcome despite her powers, and ends up running away. Plus, for me anyways, there were 3 deaths of characters that seemed to be an integral part of the show, their demise shockingly abrupt. Add in the torture scenes and Xander's betrayal at a crucial moment, and I have to agree its as low as out heroine gets.
It goes almost without saying I disagree with your reading of S6, NNG. But you do help me understand the objections some have to it. I can say at least: "Yeah, you could take it that way, BUT..." The but is of course crucial..

LONG time Buffy fan here. While I wouldn't say that S6 is the best season, it is my favorite.
I identified with the adult scooby gang issues much more than the high school years where every metaphor was COMPLETELY literal. And I still think that OMWF is one of the greatest hours of Televison ever produced.

Just me

[QUOTE=NewNameGuy]
There is the little thing about being torn out of what seems like heaven and brought back to a world that now seems like Hell. Thats a little on the dark side.

I was going to post about this very scene as the series' darkest moment. When I realized that the scoobies had pulled Buffy away from heaven it made me do a whole big "holy cr*p" moment.

Then when rewatching the few eps leading up to that scence, it was intersting to see that Willow's justification for the resurrection was based entirely on Buffy being in some tormented hell dimension. She never even considered that an afterlife could be better than life.

I thought seasons 6 and 7 were the best. Funny how I'm all alone in that mostly.

[QUOTE=Schwingding][QUOTE=lonwolf615]



Then when rewatching the few eps leading up to that scence, it was intersting to see that Willow's justification for the resurrection was based entirely on Buffy being in some tormented hell dimension. She never even considered that an afterlife could be better than life.

I thought seasons 6 and 7 were the best. Funny how I'm all alone in that mostly.

I haven't totally convinced myself yet, but I'm beginning to feel S7 might be the strongest season in both Buffy and Angel, so no you're not alone.:)
Interesting comment on Willow's motives. The question would be, was she being honest with herself? Was she really trying to bring Buffy bask for Buffy's sake, or for her own? I suspect her motives were selfish-she couldn't bear not having the slayer with her. But she couldn't admit it even to herself and had to persuade the other Scoobies it was to get Buffy out of hell. The fact she had to keep it secret from Giles, and even had to hide the full extent of what was involved from Xander and Tara indicates she knew she was going down the wrong path. The killing of an innocent(the fawn) could never be right, no matter what good might come from it. I think thats crucial in understanding the season- its not that Willow was seduced by magic later. She was already doomed once she killed the fawn. The only question was what form her damnation would take. The magic was more than just a metaphor for drugs, though it was that too.
Its telling how it played out-she was going to destroy the world for the sake of the world, to end its pain. Right up to the end she convinced herself she was doing it for others, not herself. Poor little Willow would never do anything for herself, her self esteem was so low she was sure her wants and needs didn't matter...come to think about it, that applies to everyone in this season, doesn't it? The lack of self-esteem, of loving oneself...everybody is running away from their own self image, unable to accept who they are. Pretty dark, huh?

Funny I should come across this thread after having just finished all seven seasons back-to-back over the last month.

Seasons 1-5 fly by, six kinda drags probably because I was just waiting to see "Evil Willow." Season 7 I find a slow journey to the end as was it on tv knowing that the show was not being picked up.

Season 6 is dark, come on, flayed alive and callous regard for friends. Even though I would also say it was selfish to bring Buffy back from the dead too and I really hated the Scooby gang for doing that.

Season 7 and Xander's eye being gouged out is pretty dark along with the mysoginistic preacher Caleb.

On the annoying side, Dawn is just so darn whiney and while her appearance in season 5 was a big WTF?! moment, it was great storytelling.

My favorite part I feel in the whole series was when "evil Willow" says "no one can stop her" and then she is blasted across the room and Giles apprears "I would like to test that theory." That was a rock on type of moment. Giles and Xander really showed that the support team sometimes has more power then the main characters have.

In summation, yes, the show is really a dvd back-to-back viewing exprience.

Now I am watching the Angel box set I picked up from the UK.

Great comments, Sean, and I agree on the Giles' moment during the Buffy-Willow fight. I don't know if its the emothional attachment to the characters or the music, or just great stuntwork, but I've always found some of the battle scenes in Buffy-Angel more impressive than those in big budget hollywood action films. Pretty amazing how much Joss could do with so little. I'd rate Buffy-Willow 3rd or 4th in the most epic battles on the show, depending on my mood. Buffy-Faith in S3 would be up there too, as well as the climatic fight at the end of S2. But you still have the best ones coming up imo-one in S5 of Angel, the other in S4. Enjoy!

Great comments, Sean, and I agree on the Giles' moment during the Buffy-Willow fight. I don't know if its the emothional attachment to the characters or the music, or just great stuntwork, but I've always found some of the battle scenes in Buffy-Angel more impressive than those in big budget hollywood action films. Pretty amazing how much Joss could do with so little. I'd rate Buffy-Willow 3rd or 4th in the most epic battles on the show, depending on my mood. Buffy-Faith in S3 would be up there too, as well as the climatic fight at the end of S2. But you still have the best ones coming up imo-one in S5 of Angel, the other in S4. Enjoy!

Angel vs. Faith was a knock down drag out fight. Definitely some great ones coming up in season 5 of Angel too.

The battles on these series can be very impressive and often times far more entertaining than the battles on a movie, partly because we've gotten attached to these characters and therefor care more about what happens. I demoed an Angel season 5 fight scene for someone the other day who had never seen a home theater front projector and he immediately sounded really interested and asked "Whoa. What's this?". He was surprised that he'd never heard of it before. Actually this happened twice when I demoed the same scene for another person. lol.

BTW LonWolf, have you seen Alias yet? The first two seasons were so addictive it was crazy and it had arguably the best pilot episode ever (blew away most big budget movies). It is definitely a great show for someone going through Buffy/Angel/Firefly (and now Veronica Mars) withdrawal. :D However, it's a show that should be watch in order from the very beginning. I'd be shocked if the pilot episode didn't hook you. Watching a random episodes of this series is a big no-no though. Must start from the beginning. :)

I looked back at some old posts and saw that that you got Freaks & Geeks? Did you ever finish it. If so, thoughts?

My wife and I started watching F+G. We watched the first disc and she was kinda lukewarm about it. I liked the concept, but apparently wasn't grabbed enough by it to keep going, at least so far. I guess I would say I liked it intellectually but so far at least it hasn't struck an emotional chord. I realize how high in esteem the show is held and really expected to like it a lot. And I did like it, but wasn't hooked. I'm sure I'll get back to it, and there were some storylines that seemed promising, so...
I've still got Wonderfalls too, and I really intend to get to that in the near future. But right now I'm working my way through Angel again. Been taking it slow, 2 or 3 ep. a week, so its taking a while...and darn if I'm not starting to get the itch to start over with Buffy! So it could be a while before I see the rest of F+G...

My wife and I started watching F+G. We watched the first disc and she was kinda lukewarm about it. I liked the concept, but apparently wasn't grabbed enough by it to keep going, at least so far. I guess I would say I liked it intellectually but so far at least it hasn't struck an emotional chord. I realize how high in esteem the show is held and really expected to like it a lot. And I did like it, but wasn't hooked. I'm sure I'll get back to it, and there were some storylines that seemed promising, so...
I've still got Wonderfalls too, and I really intend to get to that in the near future. But right now I'm working my way through Angel again. Been taking it slow, 2 or 3 ep. a week, so its taking a while...and darn if I'm not starting to get the itch to start over with Buffy! So it could be a while before I see the rest of F+G...


You really should try Alias. If that pilot didn't hook a person I'd be shocked. It's hooked 5/5 here. Better than most feature films and a totally original plot and setup that blew me away. The revelations made me say "No way." It sets up up the entire show in a big way. Freaks & Geeks is a great show, but it's not the frist show I'd reommend to a Buffy/Angel fan. For Buffy/Angel fans I'd recommend Alias as one of the first shows to check out after they are done (Veronica Mars being the other. I LOVE this show BTW. I'd recommend this one first simply because it has only 2 seasons right now). Much like with Veronica Mars I pretty much fell in love with the lead character, Sydney Bristow, on Alias. If anything one must at least check the series out to witness probably the single best smiles ever commited to celluloid. :D

If you got Netflix definitely check it out sometime. I'd be very curious to see what you think of the pilot and if it hooks you or not. So far I've yet to see a person that wasn't (as I said 5/5 over here that were hooked by the first episode. Angel didn't hook me as quickly, but of course it's the greater show in the long run).

I'd say Alias season 1 beats both Buffy & Angel season 1 as a whole (and at least provides stiff competition to the best season of any series as a whole). Alias season 2 is close to Buffy & Angel season 2 overall. Buffy & Angel season 3 both beat Alias season 3 (while this was step down from seasons 1 & 2 it was still very entertaining). Buffy & Angel season 4 both beat Alias season 4 (this was a bigger step down and had lots of stand alones) and Buffy/Angel season 5 both beat Alias season 5 (a step back up from season 4, but still no season 1 or 2. Great & fitting finale).

So it's about 4-1 for Buffy (obviously excluding the finale 2 seasons) or Angel over Alias or arguably 3-1-1. :)

BTW, I'm going through Buffy again. I'm on episode 4. :D

Okay, okay, I'll rent Alias! Geesh!!!!!!!
Only kidding, M...thanks for the reccomendation. I'll sneak the pilot in some time next week, see if I do get hooked. I have to admit though that I haven't been that impressed with JG in the little I've seen of her-KB or SMG are much better actresses imo.
The 2nd season of VM comes out in aug. on dvd, and if ever a show was meant to be watched in a marathan, this would be it. The season long riddle of the bus crash was one of the most intriging mysteries I've ever encountered, and I can't wait to see how it plays out in dvd, without the long breaks between episodes. Hopefully we get some commentaries this time-the first season was pretty bare on extras.
There's a show I'm looking forward to returning even more than VM, though. It started out so bad it was embarrasing but midway thru its first season suddenly stopped on a dime and reinvented itself. By the end there was multiple backstories and hints of future story arcs that had me intrigued. Plus the dialog was the cleverest this side of Joss...
And yeah, I'm talking about Bones..

Okay, okay, I'll rent Alias! Geesh!!!!!!!
Only kidding, M...thanks for the reccomendation. I'll sneak the pilot in some time next week, see if I do get hooked.

:D Despite how good the pilot is season 1 as a whole blows it away. Season 2 was just as good too, if not better.


The 2nd season of VM comes out in aug. on dvd, and if ever a show was meant to be watched in a marathan, this would be it.

Looking forward to that set.

I got both my cousin and my best friend also addicted to Veronica Mars (the previous addiction was Alias). My cousin actually stayed and watched for 7 hours straight one night during season 2 and was over at my house till about midnight on a night where he had to be up at 8:00AM. lol. He did something similar when we first went through Alias too (sometimes staying till 1 or 2 AM. lol. Though I don't think we ever watched for 7 hours straight before.).

After my best friend finished season 2 he thought it was amazing and almost getting up there to the Buffy, Angel, Firefly level for him. He was BIG into Alias when we first started to watch, but I think season 4 kind of made him forget how great the show was early on and how addicted he really was. He hasn't gone through much of season 5 yet though. Alias is a character show in a way, but not quite like Buffy, Angel or Veronica Mars. It's heavy on plots, twists and turns but with enough good character stuff to make it very compelling, IMO.

Neither my cousin nor my best friend were quite as addicted to Freaks & Geeks as I was though. They liked it though, but were both more hooked by Buffy, Angel, VM & Alias. Even Smallville too, despite its flaws. One of the really great things about early Alias is that almost every episodes leaves you with a cliff hanger that begs to be continued and it gets more addicting as you go along. So many twists and turns; It's crazy.

I have to admit though that I haven't been that impressed with JG in the little I've seen of her-KB or SMG are much better actresses imo.

If you haven't been impressed with JG you haven't seen enough of Alias, because she is amazing on the show. The best role she will ever have in her life. Her role is really really demanding. She actually does her own fight scenes and lots of stunts too, which is impressive. She has to speak with many different accents and languages too. Her role is just a daunting task to take on. Of course their characters (Buffy, VM compared to Sydney) are wildly different and require a different style of acting too.

I remember when my cousin would be watching and when he planned to go home so he could get to bed early for work and Alias would end with a big cliffhanger. He'd go "Damn it! Put in the next episode." and end up repeating 3 times. lol. Before I got my best friend hooked on the show my cousin would say to him "Have you seen Alias yet? It pisses me off.", but of course he clearly meant in a good away, except for the fact that it made him tired at work. lol.

The 2nd season of VM comes out in aug. on dvd, and if ever a show was meant to be watched in a marathan, this would be it. The season long riddle of the bus crash was one of the most intriging mysteries I've ever encountered, and I can't wait to see how it plays out in dvd, without the long breaks between episodes. Hopefully we get some commentaries this time-the first season was pretty bare on extras.

I watched it on Bit Torrent, but the effect is pretty much the same. It's perfect for a marathon viewing. The bus crash was definitely a very intriguing mystery.

There's a show I'm looking forward to returning even more than VM, though. It started out so bad it was embarrasing but midway thru its first season suddenly stopped on a dime and reinvented itself. By the end there was multiple backstories and hints of future story arcs that had me intrigued. Plus the dialog was the cleverest this side of Joss...
And yeah, I'm talking about Bones..

Haven't seen this yet. I'll have to check it out and see where it goes. Of course I don't see anything having better characters and dialogue that VM right now.

BTW, right now I'm showing my best friend 24 season 1. He's got 4 episodes left. TV on DVD rules on a 9' screen. :D It's a very entertaining show. I felt the first season while very entertaining fell short of Alias season 1 due to Alias having a far superior and more compelling cast and more original plot.

How can you not check out DB's new series? :)
I don't think there are any plans for a DVD release so far, which is kind of odd with all the stuff out there.now. And it did really start off bad-so bad that when it improved my jaw dropped watching it. But by the end of the season I was looking forward to it each week more than VM, which amazed me. And it ended with a cliffhanger worthy of Joss..

Alias, I agree is a back-to-back experience also. But the arcs just got more and more convoluted and unbelieveable. He is now continuing this type of storytelling in Lost, JJ Abrams I mean. However, the early years of Alias are thrilling and yes, the pilot episode coulda have been a movie. :)

Seriously thoguh, a huge ol' ball of red water above Russia; then of course Sloane being trapped immortal, yeah, believeable. :D

How can you not check out DB's new series? :)
I don't think there are any plans for a DVD release so far, which is kind of odd with all the stuff out there.now. And it did really start off bad-so bad that when it improved my jaw dropped watching it. But by the end of the season I was looking forward to it each week more than VM, which amazed me. And it ended with a cliffhanger worthy of Joss..


Honestly I wasn't too happy with his attitude of not wanting to continue Angel. Now that I've had to cool down I can check it out. Also, I usually download the episodes so I can watch in higher quality without commercials. I'll honestly be stunned if I look forward to it as much as Veronica Mars simply because it doesn't even look like my kind of show. I'm not usually a fan or crime drama shows. Maybe this one is different though.

VM addicted me about as much as Alias, but in a different way. I was addicted to VM more for the dialogue and great characters while I was addicted to Alias because of the grand premise, plot, twists & turns and good characters. It was like crack tv. Both of them are superb for marathon viewing and both of them had a very compelling leading lady.

Give Alias the same chance you did with Bones and you will be rewarded with one of the most compelling, addicting and unique TV seasons ever.

Alias, I agree is a back-to-back experience also. But the arcs just got more and more convoluted and unbelieveable. He is now continuing this type of storytelling in Lost, JJ Abrams I mean. However, the early years of Alias are thrilling and yes, the pilot episode coulda have been a movie. :)


Seriously though, a huge ol' ball of red water above Russia; then of course Sloane being trapped immortal, yeah, believeable. :D

That needs spoiler tags. The ending you mentioned though was very fitting. In the end it's fantasy and always had fantasy like aspects. What I liked about the finale is that both Syndey and Jack got to get revenge on Sloane and give him a fate worse than death.

I was trying to do spoiler tags, but honestly I could not figure out how, if you wouldn't mind PM'ing the details of the clever tool.

Since you metnion fantasy, I guess it was fitting; but the first couple seasons were in the realm of reality. :)

You got the secret of VM for me too, M. I hadn't really thought about it, but it is the characters and the dialog that makes the show. That and the season long mystery arc-some of the mysteries of the week are pretty lame..
Character wise, and sometimes dialog, the show can be almost as good as Buffy. But its no match for Joss's storytelling ability, or attention to detail. And I've heard next year they are dropping the season long story arc in favor of 3 or 4 shorter ones, so we will have to wait and see how that turns out.
BTW, I figured out who did it in S2 2 or 3 eps. before it was revealed. Talk about being a dork, and proud of it.:)
Bones is also more about the characters than the actual crime solving, which might be why it took a while to find its direction. I think you'll like it.

Okay, to get back to Buffy...I was wondering if anyone has definate highlights in the series? Or the moment when you realized you were not just watching another tv series, but something you'd never seen before? M, with all the folks you've got hooked on the show-were their common moments when they got hooked? This is a different question than choosing a favorite episode..its more the moment that kept you watching until it reached your favorites. I know when the change came for me. I had a gradual growing admiration of the series, but there was a definate moment where I had an epiphany and the way I veiwed it changed. How about everybody else? Was there a crucial scene that changed everything?

Okay, to get back to Buffy...I was wondering if anyone has definate highlights in the series? Or the moment when you realized you were not just watching another tv series, but something you'd never seen before? M, with all the folks you've got hooked on the show-were their common moments when they got hooked? This is a different question than choosing a favorite episode..its more the moment that kept you watching until it reached your favorites. I know when the change came for me. I had a gradual growing admiration of the series, but there was a definate moment where I had an epiphany and the way I veiwed it changed. How about everybody else? Was there a crucial scene that changed everything?

Hmmm, good question. I think there are several points when the show transcended just popcorn viewing. Xander and Willow's unacknowledged love seen through their dialogue. Angel and Buffy in season 1. Giles when we find out he was "Ripper."

What was great about the show was the different layers each character brought to the table. No episode was the same.

Okay, to get back to Buffy...I was wondering if anyone has definate highlights in the series? Or the moment when you realized you were not just watching another tv series, but something you'd never seen before? M, with all the folks you've got hooked on the show-were their common moments when they got hooked? This is a different question than choosing a favorite episode..its more the moment that kept you watching until it reached your favorites. I know when the change came for me. I had a gradual growing admiration of the series, but there was a definate moment where I had an epiphany and the way I veiwed it changed. How about everybody else? Was there a crucial scene that changed everything?


Man, I don't even know. It's been so long. I just remember watching and gradually being pulled more and more into the series and devouring episode after episode quickly before season 6 began to air (it was my first Buffy season that I watched on TV as they aired and I had never anticipated watching something so much before in my life. lol. Though Angel season 3 outshined Buffy this season as a whole which shocked me. Buffy did have a killer 3 part finale though).

My epiphany might have come when Angel turned evil and killed Jenny Calender or when Buffy killed Angel to save the world. I know by then it definitely dawned on me that I was watching something truly special.

I started my best friend on season 6 though since that's all I had and I thought its feature film like quality and improved special fx might get him to open up more to the "high school years", especially the first season which was good, but a bit rough in comparison He got hooked pretty quick on it and then watched from the very beginning after season 6. At first he thought he wouldn't like the high school years as much (he only caught bits and pieces here and there), but he loved seasons 2 & 3 a lot more than he expected too. I'd have to ask him if there was a certain moment when he realized he loved the show and see if he can remember.

I think he likes Angel more, but he has said before that Buffy is very slightly the greater series. Maybe because it started it all or because it lasted longer. I'm not sure. I was surprised that he loved Firefly about as much as Buffy or Angel. He definitely saw the potential the series had. I really didn't expect that from him though, but watching it on DVD again I came to the realization that Joss Whedon is beyond amazing (of course that was something I already knew). I just thought what are the odds that my best friend's top 3 favorite series of all time are all Joss Whedon series, after all of the shows he's now watched?

He's now watched the following on my 9' theater screen (definitely the way to experience great tv, btw):

Buffy seasons 1-7, Angel seasons 1-5, Dark Angel seasons 1 & 2, Alias Seasons 1-4 and a few from season 5 (we'll go back to that soon), Smallville Seasons 1-4 (and episode 1 of season 5), Veronica Mars Seasons 1 & 2, 24 season 1 (What he's on now. Only two episodes left to go), Xena Seasons 1-3 & Freaks & Geeks (a little over half).

He's enjoyed them all on some level, but Buffy, Angel & Firefly are his top 3 with Veronica Mars inching closer to joining them (he really dug it). I think Alias would've been up there as well had it not declined in quality dramatically in season 4. He really likes Smallville a lot, but clearly sees its huge flaws, so much like with me it's a bit more of a guilty pleasure show for him. We both recognize its flaws, but at times it can be great and has shown potential to be great, but the writers simply have no guts and must be limited by what they are allowed to do. It has its moments though. It has the best Lex Luthor ever by far and a great Clark Kent. BTW Lonwolf, Spike (James Marsters), was playing one of the main villains on Smallville this season. :)

I really really hope Whedon comes back to TV.

Okay, to get back to Buffy...I was wondering if anyone has definate highlights in the series? Angel (the episode). Cross burning scene.

Musical Buffy. It was such a departure, and yet SO cool. They did a spectacular job with it. Personally I was left dissatisfied with the final battle... it wasn't epic enough for my tastes. I was also fairly fond of the episode where we get to see the universe without Buffy in town :). Cool re-emergence of the Master vampire.

Oh, and how could anyone POSSIBLY not like the one where all the adults are being fed that stuff that makes them act like kids and Giles hooks up with Buffy's mom :)

Okay, to get back to Buffy...I was wondering if anyone has definate highlights in the series? Or the moment when you realized you were not just watching another tv series, but something you'd never seen before? M, with all the folks you've got hooked on the show-were their common moments when they got hooked? This is a different question than choosing a favorite episode..its more the moment that kept you watching until it reached your favorites. I know when the change came for me. I had a gradual growing admiration of the series, but there was a definate moment where I had an epiphany and the way I veiwed it changed. How about everybody else? Was there a crucial scene that changed everything?

I hadn't really watched it closely until Season two and the Angelus arc which led to the two part climax. I hadn't seen anything like that on television. The keys were definitely the characters and especially how they were all flawed. Many shows up til then usually had pretty black and white characters drawn or if a character had bad qualities, they usually turned out good. Here, you had all sorts of shades of grey with a character being brave one episode and shaking in their boots the next. Once the hook came in Season 2, Season 3 was perhaps the best overall season with some great episodes. Buffy always worked best at high school with the "school is hell" metaphor going. The other great thing was that Joss Whedan and the crew had a great eye for talent. When someone would come on the show and make a splash like Spike or Anya or even other smaller parts that got recycled, they would make the show include these characters.
I followed Angel as well and thought that was an excellent show with some really great stuff. That show got a running start as they didn't have to reinvent the "universe". It had some really strong shows the first season, especially the arc with Faith.

[QUOTE=NewNameGuy]Angel (the episode). Cross burning scene.

I hadn't thought of that, but that is definately the big one, isn't it? Everything that happens through the whole series can be traced back to that-plot, theme, mood, tone..I'm in awe, NNG.
Of course, by the time I watched I already knew who Angel was, so the shock value was lessened...its like what my wife said when we got to the climax of season two: I know Angel doesn't get killed because he got his own show."
All of us who came late can only envy the impact the show must have had for those who were watching when it first aired, without any idea where it was going to go. That brings up another question, to those who did watch when it was first broadcast,,,Was the Angel revelation a huge shock? Did most already suspect he was a vampire, or even "know" it? If it was a surprise, thats one experience the rest of us can never share..did I mention envy?

Great post, Daryl, btw...that pretty much describes what happened to me.

In the Serenity thread there is some talk about the characters and how they become like friends you sit around the kitchen table talking to. And thats exactly what happened to my wife, once she started watching. She was hooked by the 3rd or 4th ep. of S1, much faster than me. (offerring further proof she's much smarter than I am). She said something like "I don't know why I'm watching this, I hate this kind of stuff, its just silly. But I gotta see what happens to Xander and Willow". (her first favorites). She even said they were like friends, like actual people she knew.

In the Serenity thread there is some talk about the characters and how they become like friends you sit around the kitchen table talking to. And thats exactly what happened to my wife, once she started watching. She was hooked by the 3rd or 4th ep. of S1, much faster than me. (offerring further proof she's much smarter than I am). She said something like "I don't know why I'm watching this, I hate this kind of stuff, its just silly. But I gotta see what happens to Xander and Willow". (her first favorites). She even said they were like friends, like actual people she knew.

That's how it is for all Whedons series and what I absolutely LOVE about his shows. They completely draw you into his world. Of course I feel more that way about Buffy & Angel characters since I loved how epic they were in general. It almost made you wish that you could join them in their battles just to a part of it. Although I love Firefly I can't say I'd want to join them as often scrounging around to survive. I much prefer to be involved in epic battles against true evil. :D

BTW, you sneak that Alias pilot in yet?

Definitely post your opinion when you do. I think if you stuck with it like Bones you'd definitely highly enjoy it. I became more and more impressed with Jennifer Garner with each passing episode. I used to wonder what the big deal about her was, including her looks. Alias showed me why everyone was going ga-ga over her. She BECAME Sydney Bristow, a girl who is a genius, a brilliant spy/field agent, a girl who can kick the crap out of bad guys, a girl who can steal important things and also be the extremely cute and loveable girl next door when at home with her friends. That's part of what I loved about the show. Her new forming relationship with her father who was never there for her early on in her life is really compelling.

The Angel/Angelus S2 thing was an unbelieveable shock. Total Holy Shiet moment - and just about everything that happened for the rest of the season was an edge of your seat expereince, waiting to see what would happen next.

Unfortunately, the internet helped kill many of the shocks in later season. You had a huge fan community, and there was nothing you could do to stop the spoilers. Joss put out an ad casting for the part of Buffy's sister. So pretty much every serious fan knew Dawn was comming. It was still great to see how she arrived, but the bomb dropping impact wasn't there.

I've often wondered about that-the internet buzz was a two edged sword, wasn't it? On one hand it made it the cult show Joss had created it to be. On the other, it lessened the surprise and shock of some events. Plus, with the "inside" info that was posted I think it effected how some viewed the later seasons. Thats just a theory though.
Imagine if SW was just starting out now. Would there be any chance of anyone watching Empire without knowing you know who was Luke's father? That would have really lessened the impact that film would have had.

I'll sneak the pilot in some time next week, see if I do get hooked.

Not sure if you noticed my last post above since NewNameGuy posted not long after I did, but since you didn't reply I assume that you missed it.

So, did you sneak in the Alias pilot yet or what? :D If so, what did you think?

I've rented it, haven't watched yet. Entering the home stretch on Angel.:)
Its funny, but in 2 different commentaries in S5 they comment on how hard it was to keep anything secret. They were referring specifically to Christian Kane's return and how they tried to hide it by referring to him as Sean, and then Doyle, to prevent people realizing Lindsay was returning. But an extra spotted CK on set and leaked it to the internet before his 1st appearance. Ties in with what we were saying above.
Have you seen The Descent. btw, M? Not exactly reccomending it, though I loved it. But if you saw it I would be interested in what you thought.

I've rented it, haven't watched yet. Entering the home stretch on Angel.:)
Its funny, but in 2 different commentaries in S5 they comment on how hard it was to keep anything secret. They were referring specifically to Christian Kane's return and how they tried to hide it by referring to him as Sean, and then Doyle, to prevent people realizing Lindsay was returning. But an extra spotted CK on set and leaked it to the internet before his 1st appearance. Ties in with what we were saying above.
Have you seen The Descent. btw, M? Not exactly reccomending it, though I loved it. But if you saw it I would be interested in what you thought.


I REALLY want to see The Descent. Hopefully I'll get to see it soon and let you know what I think. I looks pretty good. Although I was annoyed when I saw some TV spots. One TV spot I believe showed what they were up against right after saying "mysterious creature" and I thought "well, not very mysterious now THANKS A LOT!". lol. I was hoping to at least see the film first before I saw the thing down there with them. lol.

I really need to start checking out these commentaries for Angel and Buffy. BTW, the Buffy Chosen Collection has a really cool extra disc that the other sets do not have. Great extras on it. Not sure if you have that set or not, but I'm glad I got it. One has Joss Whedon, some other writers, Charisma Carpenter, Nicholas Brenden & Emma Caufield sitting around chatting about their experiences and stuff on the show. That was fun to watch.

Report back when you watch the Alias pilot (Hopefully soon. :D Watch it with no distractions if possible). It's a feature film quality pilot if I ever saw one. The premise, story & characters blow most feature films out of the water (Lost's pilot was pretty amazing as well, but I'd say Alias' is the best pilot I've ever seen). I don't know if you'll feel the same way most did about it (which is being instantly hooked), but you should at least find it on another level than the Bones pilot, which gives me confidence that you could be hooked if you stuck with it like you did Bones, because the season as a whole is as great or greater than the pilot itself. The pilot merely brilliantly sets up the entire show's characters, premise and villains. The series also has some great extras on disc six, ones that earn Jennifer Garner great respect since she does her own fight scenes and some of her own stunts (jumping off of buildings and stuff).

Enjoy Angel (try to take an Alias break soon; It's worth it. :D)

Man, I posted an answer to you last night, M, but must have goofed somewheres-its gone. I guess you'll have to take my word that it was the greatest post of all time.:)
This is the first time I've listened to the commentaries-tried before, but I'd keep getting sucked in by the story and turn them off.:) Some are great, some are...not so..Joss's are always good(duh!). The one for the very 1st Angel had some great insights and led me to viewing Angel in a different light, so this time thru has been maybe the most enjoyable ever. The ones in S7 of Buffy add a lot too. Just watched "Damage" from Angel 5 last night, and that one is right up there with the best of both series. Man, they were on a roll that last year..BURN IN HELL, WB!!!!!

Man, I posted an answer to you last night, M, but must have goofed somewheres-its gone.

LOL. I've had that happen before (once on a REALLY long post. So frustrating. lol). I hope it wasn't your answer regarding Alias, because if so you'll have to repost. :D

I'm planning on seeing The Descent soon btw.

I don't know if you've seen it, but I really liked Dog Soldiers, and The Descent is from the same guy I believe. When I heard The Descent was even better I only got more interested. So, it's definitely one of the films I'm most looking forward to this year.

I rented Dog Solders at the same time I got Alias. Now if I can only get that damn vampire out of the dvd player...
Pretty much have had an epiphany watching the last season of Angel-I never realized how good the whole season was. There is a whole series of episodes that compare favorably to the best of Buffy. I mean I knew it was good, I just didn't realize how good.

I rented Dog Solders at the same time I got Alias. Now if I can only get that damn vampire out of the dvd player...
Pretty much have had an epiphany watching the last season of Angel-I never realized how good the whole season was. There is a whole series of episodes that compare favorably to the best of Buffy. I mean I knew it was good, I just didn't realize how good.


What have I tried to tell you?

Oink! You're full of surprises. You'll have to elaborate on that, I'm not sure what you mean. :)

Sorry, check post again.

Now if I can only get that damn vampire out of the dvd player...

The best way is to tell yourself "If I finish I'll be done again and that is bad." :D Watching something else, like say.......(cough) Alias...will allow you to drag out the viewing of the final season of Angel while also getting to watch the beginning of a great show with a beautiful and intelligent woman who kicks the daylights out of terrorists/government officials/criminals. :D

Think of it this way. I'm sure you already own Angel, therefor by not watching your rented DVDs you are getting less of a deal from Netflix (which what I assume you have, correct?) since you could potentially be sending them back for more at an earlier time. :)

BTW, is this viewing of Angel season 5 your second time through straight from the the beginning or did you just pop in season 5 and decide to watch it? How far along are you know?

I agree that Season 5 does hold up very well and seems to get better with age. I caught a few episodes on DVD and it seems even greater than I remember. If I watch it from beginning to end again I may have to move it up a spot on my rankings.

oink: I got what you meant, I just don't remember you telling me anything about Angel. Senility on my part I'm sure..refresh my memory. Really-I am very interested in anything you have to share on Buffy/Angel or comparisons there of.:)
M: Its my third time through from the beginning, after my 3rd time through Buffy, and boy, do I feel like a nerd.:) The thing is I'm getting a whole new vibe on the last season this time, which is making it hard to stop. Damage and Your Wecome,esp. I can't believe I missed so much the first 2 times thru.

M: Its my third time through from the beginning, after my 3rd time through Buffy, and boy, do I feel like a nerd.:) The thing is I'm getting a whole new vibe on the last season this time, which is making it hard to stop. Damage and Your Wecome,esp. I can't believe I missed so much the first 2 times thru.

You're making me want to go through the series again. I've seen Veronica Mars seasons 1 & 2 three times and Alias seasons 1-4 three times (season 1 four times. lol). Of course this is because I watch once by myself, then my best friend comes over and watches them, then my cousin and my Uncle also watched Alias season 1 with me. I've probably seen Buffy/Angel less ALL the way through oddly enough. Watching straight from beginning to end I think I've only seen Buffy and Angel that way twice (though I've seen several episodes multiple times). I have definitely seen Angel season 1 three times though.

I definitely get what you're saying. You see and feel new things with each viewing.

So, you've just finished "You're Welcome" or are you further along than that now?

The biggest revelation is that the Conner storyline was far from over...never cared much for that kid...what most say about Dawn is how I felt about Conner, and the convoluted storyline that 2 vampires had to have a baby so it could knock up Cordy and give birth to a higher power...seemed more trouble than it was worth. But Conner was a lot more than that, wasn't he? When Angel sold out to W+H to give Conner a new life, I thought it a clever way to get rid of him and didn't think much more about it. But what that did is set up a real conflict between paternal feelings and his desire to fight evil. Which is more important-the fight against evil, or to protect your offspring? Conner coopted Angel into accepting what he had always rejected, and it opens up all kinds of possibilities for future shows. One right off the bat: did the rest of the team join W+H out of their own free will? Or was their acceptance of the offer a result of the same spell that made them forget Conner? Is Angel responsible for what happened to Fred and Wesley and Gunn due to his selfish desire to protect his son? With the best intentions, did he become as evil with a soul as he was when he was without one? Now, thats dark...

The biggest revelation is that the Conner storyline was far from over...never cared much for that kid...what most say about Dawn is how I felt about Conner, and the convoluted storyline that 2 vampires had to have a baby so it could knock up Cordy and give birth to a higher power...seemed more trouble than it was worth. But Conner was a lot more than that, wasn't he? When Angel sold out to W+H to give Conner a new life, I thought it a clever way to get rid of him and didn't think much more about it. But what that did is set up a real conflict between paternal feelings and his desire to fight evil. Which is more important-the fight against evil, or to protect your offspring? Conner coopted Angel into accepting what he had always rejected, and it opens up all kinds of possibilities for future shows. One right off the bat: did the rest of the team join W+H out of their own free will? Or was their acceptance of the offer a result of the same spell that made them forget Conner? Is Angel responsible for what happened to Fred and Wesley and Gunn due to his selfish desire to protect his son? With the best intentions, did he become as evil with a soul as he was when he was without one? Now, thats dark...

You brought up some interesting questions and points there. :) I could only imagine what Joss had in store for us after season 5. I get the nagging feeling that it would've been even better (based on the ideas I've read). It could've possibly been the best season and the one that made Angel pass Buffy as the overall greater series. It's too bad we'll never know thanks to Jordan Levin.

I thought that alot of the Connor plotline owed to the fact that Charima Carpenter was pregnant. It was one of those adapt the storyline to the actors.

I recall that I really didn't like the whining Connor very much while I watched the series unfold. As I revisit the series on TNT, I appreciate it much more. Connor had a pretty screwed up life. Perhaps a flashback to the hell dimension he grew up in would have helped.

Angel seemed to be much stronger than other vampires and that really wasn't explained too much nor how strong they really are. Every once in a while, Angel would leap up about 30 feet and you seemed to wonder where that came from. Connor was the destroyer and killed everything in the hell dimension but was beaten pretty badly by both Angel and Faith. There seemed to be a lack of consistency.

Overall, I thought Whedan and the boys did a great job on the plotline. This arc started from Season 2 with Angel's great descent into blackness leading to his banging of Darla and then his epiphany that "If nothing matters then the only thing that matters is what you do." Continued on going to the test to save Darla's life creating a debt for a new life and then the Darla pregnancy, the return of Holtz and the changing of Darla with the soul insider her and her sacrifice of her life. The breakup of the group by the poisoning of Wesley's mind with the (false?) prophesy which actually forwarded the real prophesy. Wesley turning dark but still staying true to the mission. Holtz stealing Connor and poisoning him against his father and taking him to a hell dimension where he grows to be the "Destroyer". The return of Connor as a teenager and the ascenson of Cordelia to a demon and then a higher being. Connor's betrayal of Angel and the months at the bottom of the ocean. The return of Cordelia and the plot to create a new life that was only possible because of Connor's existance and using Carpenter's pregnancy. The new Jasmine who promised peace on earth at the cost of free will and a few thousand willing lives. Then the madness of Connor which sealed the deal for Angel to work at Wolfram & Hart. This was an amazing arc lasting over 4 or 5 seasons. I don't know if they did this by the seat of their pants or actually had guided it out but I can't remember any similar type long range story arc which drove the story as well.

MAN, I miss Buffy and Angel......

Connor was the destroyer and killed everything in the hell dimension but was beaten pretty badly by both Angel and Faith. There seemed to be a lack of consistency.


I think Connor was in a much different type of "hell dimension" than say the one Angel went to. He probably went to something more like Pylea, whereas Angel went to a hell dimension were he was tortured for possibly hundreds of years.

Connor just never fought anyone as bad as Angel or Faith. Angel is a hundreds of years old with tons of experience and Faith is a vampire/demon slayer with experience against fighting the best slayer ever as well as one of the top two vampire fighters ever (Angel). Angel also has experience fighting two great slayers as well as the Grusalug. Other vampires can jump high as can the slayer, but it's rarely used probably because of budget concerns.

Angel is one of the baddest vampires in part because of his age and experience, not to mention he was one of the worst if not the worst vampires to have ever existed. However, Spike is his equal or perhaps even better since he did beat Angel when it came down to their showdown and he has killed two slayers. I don't know if either of them are "stronger" than other vampires though (maybe most), but I think skill factor has the most to do with it. Angel trains to fight creatures whereas most vampires are used to feeding on weak human victims and therefore aren't equipped to deal with fighting Angel or Spike. Ha Ha. Boxing fan logic that. It makes sense though.

I'd have to say overall Spike is the greater vampire. He not only killed two slayers, but he got laid by one (:D), sought out and restored his soul, saved the world and returned from the dead. Even Angel can't top that. :D Spike would've whipped Connor as well.

MAN, I miss Buffy and Angel......

No kidding. It would be great if Joss revisits this verse in the future on TV. I don't care if it's completely unrelated to any of the characters. I just want SOMETHING in this verse. Fray would be awesome. These two are so unbelievably good it's sad that there may never be anything like them again.

I don't like rooting against Whedon, but selfishly I almost hope his movies will bomb just so he'll go back to tv, but at the same time I'm hoping a film of his will make $200+ million. Talk about conflicting feelings. :D

Daryl, great post. A few points, not to nitpick...First, a lot of time is spent showing Angel training, much like Buffy was shown doing it. One of the more amazing things one gets from watching Buffy as a whole is how careful they are to show her prowess increasing over the years. Part of that is bigger budgets, of course-they could do things later on in the series they could only dream about at the beginning. But part of it was planned I think, to show the value of Giles'training if nothing else. She definately grows stronger, and if you think of Angel, training over the course of a 100 years, its no wonder he's got more powers than other vampires who by nature seem to be on the lazy side.:) The other point would be that a vampire is part demon, and the demon part seems to be pretty much a crap shoot. Some are stronger than others, and Angel's appears to be one of the strongest, hence his importance to the Master way back in S1 of Buffy-remember the Master saying he always thought Angel would be by his side, 2nd in power only to him?
Now, about Conner...the storyline was started way before Charisma got pregnant, so they already had a purpose for him. I think they had to shift gears when she became unavailable-the original plan was for her to be The Big Bad, with no Jasmine at all. I think the original storyline, and W+H purpose in bringing Darla back, was to give Angel somone to care about more than his "mission". W+H couldn't kill Angel, he was too important in the coming apocalyse. But they couldn't have him running around like a loose cannon either. Conner was a way to control him through his son. And, for the show it opened up alll kind of possibilities: Should one sacrifice one's offspring for the greater good? Or vice versa? It also gave them a way to show how evil can be done with the best intentions, one of Joss's favorite themes..I've read of their plans for the 6th season, a Mad Max type world...but I can't help thinking Conner would have played an important part in it, to the point even of the "false" prophesy coming true..or even. if Angel continued to lose his way, of being reversed...
And yes, I am a nerd when it comes to the Jossverse..

Okay, M, your turn..I wouldn't be so quick to put Spike above Angel. At the time of the fight, Angel was heavily conflicted as to his role in the world, whereas Spike's motives were far purer. "He wanted it more" is what I think Angel says of Spike beating him, showing a moment of Angel's self doubt, that he might have lost his "mission" while Spike has found his. At a later time the fight might have ended differently-Angel does slam Spike around a few times in later episodes. And Angel did do the nasty with a slayer first, though it didn't turn out all that well.:)
I think you're underestimating Conner too, but who knows? Anyways, if there had been a 6th season I think someone else would have emerged as the most powerful, much like Willow did on Buffy...Wesley, of course..

MAN, I miss Buffy and Angel......


I'm STILL there...


MTyson,

As much as we might wish it, I don't think JW will revisit these series....unless he needs the $.

I believe he is very much focused on his MOVIE DIRECTOR ambition and likely doesn't want to "look back" (or to be perceived as having failed).

It would be great...but he probably couldn't get back the cast and crew that made it work.

Angel did do the nasty with a slayer first, though it didn't turn out all that well.:)



The Spike/Buffy meatings almost made me wish I was a bloodsucker... :D

Me and the gf LOVED the scene where Buffy and Spike are beating the crap out of each other in the house that's falling apart and then they switch to....


:)

] And Angel did do the nasty with a slayer first, though it didn't turn out all that well.:)


Yeah, but Spike didn't even need a SOUL to accomplish that goal. :D

but where oh where is the love for "Riley".
Poor guy doesn't even have an action figure does he?

;)

Funny you should mention him...I am the sole member of the Riley fan club...well, me and Dawn..

And he laid TWO slayers. Only one body, though...

:)

Speaking of hooking up, Xander did pretty well IMHO.
He never got Buffy but he macked Willow in one ep. Had secret tyrsts with Cordy! Scored with Faith (HUGE coup there) and was practically pushing away Anya's horny advances at times!!!!!

And he almost scored with a giant Praying Mantis!!!!

:)

Speaking of hooking up, Xander did pretty well IMHO.
He never got Buffy but he macked Willow in one ep. Had secret tyrsts with Cordy! Scored with Faith (HUGE coup there) and was practically pushing away Anya's horny advances at times!!!!!

And he almost scored with a giant Praying Mantis!!!!

:)


Xander was a stud-muffin...pure and simple.
But I don't know about the bug thing...don't think I could go there. :D

Speaking of hooking up, Xander did pretty well IMHO.
He never got Buffy but he macked Willow in one ep. Had secret tyrsts with Cordy! Scored with Faith (HUGE coup there) and was practically pushing away Anya's horny advances at times!!!!!
Xander was basically Joss' alter ego on the show. Joss sure let him have a lot of fun. Must be nice to have your own television show. And he almost scored with a giant Praying Mantis!!!!
Mmmm, Ms French www.imdb.com/name/nm0888727/

But remember,

Xander got the funny syphillis, got his eye poked out...
Was tired of being everybody's "butt monkey"....
Also Joss went to Wesleyan, I think he is alot smarter than Xander as a character was.

:)

But remember,

Xander got the funny syphillis, got his eye poked out...
Was tired of being everybody's "butt monkey"....
:)

LOL!

I had forgotten that he had said that...WAY TOO FUNNY!

Sigh... :o

Lonwolf, which episode of Angel are you currently on?

[QUOTE=MTyson]Lonwolf, which episode of Angel are you currently on?

Got 3 to go. Don't remember your rankings, and I've really never tried that myself with either series, until now. Its a funny thing to say about a show that had already been on 4 years, but I don't think Angel really hit its stride until S5. As much as Angel is considered the more "adult" of the 2 series, it didn't really equal Buffy on a week by week basis until this season. It had always had compelling story arcs, but the individual quality of each episode had never been this high, imo. Part of that is Joss's involvement-he seems to have had a hands on approach to every episode, now that it was his only show going. Even more, after 7 seasons of Buffy and 4 of Angel he had a stable of writers that's almost unbelievable. David Fury, Jeffrey Bell, Elizabeth Craft and Sarah Fain, Drew Goddard, Steven S. DeKnight, Ben Edlund...its a shame the WB didn't see fit to keep that team together.

[QUOTE]

Got 3 to go. Don't remember your rankings, and I've really never tried that myself with either series, until now. Its a funny thing to say about a show that had already been on 4 years, but I don't think Angel really hit its stride until S5. As much as Angel is considered the more "adult" of the 2 series, it didn't really equal Buffy on a week by week basis until this season. It had always had compelling story arcs, but the individual quality of each episode had never been this high, imo. Part of that is Joss's involvement-he seems to have had a hands on approach to every episode, now that it was his only show going. Even more, after 7 seasons of Buffy and 4 of Angel he had a stable of writers that's almost unbelievable. David Fury, Jeffrey Bell, Elizabeth Craft and Sarah Fain, Drew Goddard, Steven S. DeKnight, Ben Edlund...its a shame the WB didn't see fit to keep that team together.


My original rankings were:

Angel Season 3
Angel Season 4
Angel Season 2
Angel Season 5
Angel Season 1

Although it's possible season 5 might get moved up a spot. I'll have to rewatch it. Part of the reason why season 5 might have beaten Buffy on a week-by-week basis was because it wasn't up against any season of Buffy that year. :D

Seriously though, I thought Angel started beating Buffy on a week-by-week basis for the first time during Angel season 3 & Buffy Season 6. When Angel season 4 & Buffy season 7 started airing Angel, for the first time ever, was crushing Buffy on a week-by-week basis. Season 4 was the first time when I was actually looking past Buffy to the next Angel episode. I had to rewatch Buffy season 7 to appreciate it more. It simply wasn't flowing very well on TV like Angel season 4 was. It seemed really slow compared to the non stop rollercoaster ride that was Angel season 4. It didn't help that Angel always came on right afterwards. The commercials and breaks seemed to hurt Buffy season 7 much more than it did with Angel season 4, because everytime Angel ended during that season I felt like I couldn't wait a week to see what would happen next.

Half way through season 6 of Buffy & Angel season 3 was the first time when I realized I was looking forward to watching Angel more and it was the first season that beat a Buffy season in a head on comparison, but the next season of both wasn't even a competition while airing live for a majority of the seasons, IMO (Buffy season 7 vs Angel season 4). For the most part it was a wipe out, IMO. I was almost waiting for Buffy to end just so I could watch the next Angel episode. Regarding Buffy season 6, it actually ended as strong or stronger than Angel season 3, so I wasn't looking more forward to Angel towards the end of those two seasons; It was about equal then. As a whole though, between those two seasons, I think I'd have to give the nod to Angel season 3.

I find Buffy to be slightly the greater series as a whole though (I'd have no problem with it being a tie). One more season of Angel and it probably would've came out on top. My original problem with Angel season 5 compared to some other seasons was that there were a bit too many stand alones and it took too long to get to the arc. Though the invidual stand alone episodes were very good, but I definitely prefer longer story arcs. This was a demand made by the WB though.

Man, the last shot of ANGEL was simultaneously so great, so frustrating and so sad.

I miss those shows.....

S7 of Buffy is the most unified of any season of either show. Not so much in story, but in mood. But its an underlying mood, not readily apparent to casual viewing. I'd go as far as to say it would be impossible to catch what was really going on watching week by week, but I didn't do it so how do I know?:) But there's an ominous tone to every episode, something that isn't quite right no matter how light or triumphant the story may appear to be. The real conflict that season is internal, inside the characters, and the First serves as a metaphor for their own doubts and fears about who they are. Plus, until the end, each character is basically alone, struggling with their own sense of identity

S7 of Buffy is the most unified of any season of either show. Funny, I've always found S7 to be the most disjointed of seasons. First 9 episodes are some of the best Buffy every - the rest of the seaon, not so much.

Perhaps coincidently, S7 is the only season with a major change in creative staff. Marti (Noxon) returned from marternity leave to take back over show-runner duty just about the time of the change.

With respect to the strength of Angel, I really liked season 2 but the last 3 or 4 shows where they went to Pylea were really bad in my opinion. The other arc I really hated was the Angel falling in love with Cordelia. I loved her character because she was always so steadfastly shallow (remember the Buffy episod where Buffy could hear thoughts and Cordelia was the only one saying what she thought). My wife claims that the visions changed her but the change never made it for me. And Cordelia being the love of Angel's life didn't make it for me either. I always wanted to wretch. On the other hand, I really did like Wesley's change from head boy pounce to dark boss of his own investigation team. That seemed to make sense. The other changes I hated was Gunn and Fred's romance. That totally made Gunn seem out of character. However, the breakup and his anger at Wesley made more sense. Fred seemed to be too much of a love object as she was mostly annoying with her non-stop talking. The Gunn/Wesley dynamic worked well into the last season. The Spike/Angel dynamic worked well as Spike was always Angel's biotch and basically got Angel back but good being the one who was with Angel/Angelus. I wouldn't sell season 1 short either, there was some great shows there too.

NNG: I'm beginning to think you don't care too much for old Marti.:) You didn't like ShowTime, The Killer In Me, Lies My Parents Told Me, Storyteller, Dirty Girls, Empty Spaces? Chosen didn't bring a tear into your eye? Different strokes I guess..
Its not so much the story, but rather the tone of how the story is told that unifies S7 for me. While not as overtly dark as S2, a major theme is just how much its cost these characters to wage this 7 year fight. None of them escape unchanged, and some of the changes aren't for the good.

Lonwolf,


You're gonna force me to buy the Buffy/Angel sets...aren't you? :D

Lonwolf,


You are gonna force me to buy the Buffy/Angel sets...aren't you? :D

Anyone who calls theirself a fan should already own them. :D

Anyone who calls theirself a fan should already own them. :D


Watching again would depress me (being reminded they were cancelled and all). :(

Lonwolf,

Don't get me wrong. There was some good in the second half of S7. Storyteller is one of my all time favorite episodes. And I've got no problem with Chosen. But overall, I found much of the second half of S7 a waste. Which was a real shame after how strong the season started.

Within the cranky BtVS fan club, there's a segent that blames Marti for any problems the show ever had. I'm not that bad. Into the Woods (a *very* Marti episode) is a guilty pleasure of mine. But I do feel that the changes Marti made on the show (she more than anybody is responsible for changing the show from being about a hero into being about a young woman struggling with bad jobs and boyfriends) were the worse thing that ever happened to it. I know you guys don't agree.

I do feel that the changes Marti made on the show (she more than anybody is responsible for changing the show from being about a hero into being about a young woman struggling with bad jobs and boyfriends) were the worse thing that ever happened to it. I know you guys don't agree.


I have to respectfully disagree...those "changes" IMO gave Buffy its charm and uniqueness.

NewNameguy: Don't get me wrong- we disagree, but I don't think we're arguing..at least not yet.:) I don't know, maybe its because I came to the show so late, and watched so many episodes in a frenzied rush...but I always thought it was about a young girl struggling to find her place. She had been endowed with the attributes that should have given her lofty status in high school society, and led to a secure, if somewhat shallow, adult life. But there was something odd about her-she had been blessed(or cursed, you're never really sure which) with other attributes that made a normal life impossible. And that conflict is there from the pilot on. Just a couple of examples: 1st season -"Never kill a boy on the first date". 2nd season-School Hard, where Joyce finds out what her daughter is..Yeah, the theme grows stronger as the show goes on, but isn't that how real life is? We all start out in an artificial world provided by our parents and school, social structures that keep us isolated from the harshness of the real world. Its only as we grow up that we learn how much of our childhood world is fantasy, and the structure and success we knew doesn't transfer to adult life. Thats Buffy's conflict-she's always trying to fit in, to stress what she has in common with everybody else. But her differences keep getting in the way...isn't that what happens to all of us? And as we become who we will be those differences lead to choices that define who we are. "Ain't it funny how it feels when you're finding out its real", as Neil Young once said. In Buffy's case, that means being a cool superhero limits her options. She doesn't get to finish college or have a career, maybe never gets to be married...Thats what the later seasons bring to the table-the profound impact of what being who she is means. And thats why I think the 7th season might be the best, because its when she finally comes to terms with that and accepts her fate. And triumphs...
Sorry for running on, but thats what seperates Buffy from other superhero or mythic tales, at least for me. The way reality keeps sticking its ugly head in the middle of the fantasy, saying you might be a cool superhero and all, but you still got to make a living,..

Now don't frickin' tell me you like NY too!

You truly are powerful, as the emperor has foreseen. :eek:

Sorry for running on, but thats what seperates Buffy from other superhero or mythic tales, at least for me. The way reality keeps sticking its ugly head in the middle of the fantasy, saying you might be a cool superhero and all, but you still got to make a living,.. Hopefully I'll have the chance at a proper response soon, but as a quick answer, here goes...

I loved the part of Buffy where the hero struggles with real life. (Side note - I don't think this theme is unique to Buffy. Just about any classic Spiderman - or other Marvel - comic is built around the same premise.)

But I see a huge difference between how this was treated in the early years vs the later years. In NKABOTFD, Buffy has boyfriend problems *because* she is the slayer. In S6, she picks a bad boyfriend, not because she is a hero, but because that's what 20-something year old women do - they pick the wrong boyfriend.

On a similar note, in S6, Xander's problems in his romantic life have nothing to do with being a Scooby. His problem is that he's a guy, and guys are commitment-phobic jerks.

I actually liked Life Serial in S6. Again, it's about the problems of a superhero trying to get a job. But most of the job problems Buffy faces in S6 have nothing to do with being a superhero. Just normal problems 20-somethings go through when they realize that everybody needs a job to get money, and working at a job su*ks.

Valid points, NNG. I do think Buffy does a far better job than The Spiderman films at expressing the double edged sword being a superhero is. The comics are another story. But, I wouldn't argue Buffy was the first to express the idea, only that noone else has ever done it better. Buffy is mythic storytelling, and for me the most successful attempt at doing that-even better than a couple film trilogys I could mention.
But I do see where you're coming from, I just see it differently. It is the most valid criticism I've read about S6 and it does help me understand a little why some don't like it. I thank you for that. For me, the ultimate point of S6 would be: So you're a superhero(or a superhero's friend). Big deal-you still have to grow up.And being what you are ain't going to help, its just going to make it more complicated. But again, I respect your view too...got one more question though: Why does Marti get all the blame for it among so many fans? Ignoring Joss's own insistance that he was directly responsible for everything that was put on, and that never changed, it would seem if someone did take it down the road you say it went, Jane Espenson has as much to do with it as Marti.

Oh, and I'll confess something to my fellow Angel fans...the way a lot of folks feel about Marti? I feel the same way about Tim Minear..

[QUOTE=oink]Now don't frickin' tell me you like NY too!

You truly are powerful, as the emperor has foreseen. :eek:

Oh oink, I've been listening to NY since I was knee high to a grasshopper...course he was just one of the fellas in that funny named Buffalo Springfield group then, and I liked Ritchie and Steve too..a lot of sadness in the woofie household when that group broke up. At the time I wasn't even sure which of the group was my favorite...and then I heard Down By The River.. and then saw him live and he sang Sugar Mountain...I had to wonder what the guy was doing in my head...been listening ever since...the man speaks my thoughts before I even have them. Kinda creepy if you stop to think about it.:)
And yeah, you should buy Buffy. At the price The Chosen set is going for, there is no better bargain out there. And who knows, maybe Joss will use your money to pay for Serenity II...:)

[QUOTE]
And who knows, maybe Joss will use your money to pay for Serenity II...:)


That is the cruelest thing you have ever said to me. :p

Bring It On!!!

;)

Why does Marti get all the blame for it among so many fans? Ignoring Joss's own insistance that he was directly responsible for everything that was put on, and that never changed, Hmm, how to explain the Marti thing…

Through the first 5 years of the show, Marti's episodes were consistently the lowest rated of all the "big" writers within the online fan communities. Now, to be fair, things like this become a self-fulfilling prophesy. People probably rated episodes lower knowing they were Marti episodes, the same way they overrated JW episodes. This was especially true of her S4-5 episodes (IIRC -> Living Conditions, Wild at Heart, Doomed, Goodbye Iowa, New Moon Rising, Buffy v Dracula, Into the Woods, Forever - the last two she also directed).

Now the anti-Marti club has a bit of a problem when it comes to her earlier episodes. While some - e.g. Bad Eggs - are on many all-time worst episode lists, others - Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered for example - were fan favorites. The anti-Marti gang relies on the fact that Joss is known to have heavily ghost written many of the early episodes. They just assume that the good Marti episodes are really JW episodes in disguise.

Then S6 rolled around. Marti's role in the show had been growing as Joss spent less and less time on Buffy. By S6 she was made showrunner - basically given charge of all day-to-day aspects of the show. There was a crowd (not everybody of course, but a crowd) that felt S6 was a change in spirit - and NOT a change for the better. When people's least favorite writer/director is put in charge of the show, the show takes a turn for the worse - people blamed Marti.

As you point out, Joss has always taken full credit/blame for the show - and he did give final approval for everything that went out the door. But by most accounts, he had little involvement with S6 (his least involved of all seasons) and trusted Marti. While she wasn't loved by the fan community - she had the full faith and support of Joss.

In addition to the circumstantial evidence - show turned worse when Marti took over (again, this is in the mind of the anti-Marti club - I know you guys disagree) many of the specific criticisms of S6 were known to be Marti's doing. In particular, making the show more about "real life" (read Marti's life) and using painfully obvious metaphors.

Finally there was the thing that really pushed some fans over the edge. Now, within fan communities there are many "clubs." In addition to things like the "anti-Marti club" you had the "we love Spike" club. Some overlap between the groups, but certainly not all the same people. Until Marti had Spike try to rape Buffy (in Seeing Red).

In Marti's eyes, one of the major themes of S6 was that young women choose lousy boyfriends. Spike was supposed to be the embodiment of the ultimate bad choice. But something went wrong; fans didn't get the "right" message. They liked Spike - adored him. So Marti wrote the rape scene to get the point across that Spike is bad. As you might imagine, this didn't go over well with the Spike loving fans. So you pretty much had a perfect storm of anti-Martism at that point.

Of course, at the same time you had the death of Tara, which sent apoplectic shocks through the "we love Tara" club. But that was fully pined on Joss who was known to want to kill of a character from the credits (Seeing Red was the only episode in which Amber Benson appeared in the credits ).

So, that about covers the whole Marti-bashing. I haven't heard any of the S5-7 commentaries and would be interested to hear if any of this is covered. But I'll leave you with this one quote which I just saw on Marti's IMDB page when checking a few credits…

"Honestly, I identify the most with Buffy. Not because I can crush things with my hands, or I am super-strong. But because, like Buffy, my love life was a mess for years and years, and I just couldn't get it together. So I'm constantly identifying with her." (season 6 interview when asked which character she most identifies with.)

Thanks for the insights, NNG..Its interesting to hear fan's reactions who viewed it live because my own experience is so different. I came to the show late, with no preconceived notions other than it was highly regarded by some. And by viewing it in large chunks, watching in one evening what would probably amount to months of on air viewing, I naturally tried to see it as a whole, without breaking it down into who wrote what or how it may or may not have gone off course. I was watching it so fast that I had no time to create expectations of where the show should go and instead just let it wash over me, accepting what I saw as part of a unified plan. And all I can say is it worked for me..Even watching the second time, with the advantage of knowing how the characters would change and what happens to them, I was struck by the overall unity of the story. Part of that is the cleverness in the way they referenced earlier seasons, giving new meanings to events that might not have been originally intended.. Part of it is just following the natural flow of the story, with each new creative voice adding their own view of the mythos without taking anything away. I'd also have to give credit to SMG, her performance being the one constant in the show. Despite all the changes they subjected her to she made it a natural progression, where whatever Buffy thought or did seemed in character. She made the growth of Buffy seem real and not just the result of a new writer's take on where the character should go. And maybe thats key to the difference between how I view the show as opposed to so many others. To me it was never a show about a teenage girl superhero. It was a show about a teenage girl who happened to be a superhero. Subtle difference, but crucial in understanding how I viewed the later seasons.

You finished Angel season 5 yet LonWolf (I know that last group of episodes gets better and better)? That poor Alias disc must be collecting a pile of dust by now. :D

One thing I should mention about the pilot. As great as it was for the story and the complete setup of the show's premise it was made far greater as the show went along due to the great character development that came afterwards. So, after getting most of the way through season 1 the pilot is made even greater by the rest of the season. Thought I should mention that.

Looking forward to your impressions/review; Hopefully sometime this month. :D

Bump.

Ah, M... I have finished Angel(again!) and I did watch the Alias pilot and the next episode. Its quite a ride, I admit, but I didn't feel the urge to go on with it. The "why not" is hard to explain, and I don't want to offend those many who love the show. So this is not a review of the show, only my subjective reaction to it.
First and foremost, its just trying way too hard. All the plot twists and revelations about characters before one even has a sense of who they are just seemed manipulative to me. It all seemed designed to make the viewer go "WTF" but all I felt was "oh yeah, sure". Instead of sucking me into Sidney"s complex life it just made me never forget I was watching a tv show. A typical tv show, which means despite the intricate plotlines its dumbed down for the audience. It all kinda seemed connect the dots for me, with the characters having no real motivations but to get from plotline A to plotline B. The high tech stuff and the huge secret organization didn't help either. Again, more designed to wow the audience than tell a coherent story, with real characters. And Sidney...whats up with her? She goes from helpless female to kung fu master depending on what the particular scene requires..its like remaking Holloween with The Bride as Jamie Lee..hard to see her threatened by some big bad guy right after watching her kick some other big bad guy's butt.. and boy, is she lucky..there are some HUGE implausibilites in the way the villians act, not the least being their stupidity when the script calls for it. To me, it was like trying to combine a Connery Bond film with a Roger Moore one, having it both ways. Thoughtful character study and escapest fluff at the same time, and it just doesn't work at either, at least for me.
But again, its me...remember I warned you I don't watch much tv and I'm probably just not approaching this with the proper mindset. In trying to explain myself I've come off harsher than I really mean to and I hope you're not offended. Who knows, maybe at a later date I'll watch again and see it differently. The fact that you like it is a big plus for the show-I have the highest regard for your taste and opinions, which means I will probably try watching again.
And on a happier note, started watching Wonderfalls, and love it. Seems I'm going to have to rethink my opinion of Tim Minear, the show is amazing.

I did watch the Alias pilot and the next episode. Its quite a ride, I admit, but I didn't feel the urge to go on with it. The "why not" is hard to explain, and I don't want to offend those many who love the show. So this is not a review of the show, only my subjective reaction to it.
But again, its me...remember I warned you I don't watch much tv and I'm probably just not approaching this with the proper mindset.



That's confirmation...
YOU are my evil twin.

My take on Alias is exactly the same...kinda weird.
What is up with the music video vibe thrown into the show?
Any attempt at serious drama provokes giggles...

I realize Sidney is a hottie, but...

Maybe I'm just getting too old... ;)

Ah, M... I have finished Angel(again!) and I did watch the Alias pilot and the next episode. Its quite a ride, I admit, but I didn't feel the urge to go on with it. The "why not" is hard to explain, and I don't want to offend those many who love the show. So this is not a review of the show, only my subjective reaction to it.
First and foremost, its just trying way too hard. All the plot twists and revelations about characters before one even has a sense of who they are just seemed manipulative to me. It all seemed designed to make the viewer go "WTF" but all I felt was "oh yeah, sure". Instead of sucking me into Sidney"s complex life it just made me never forget I was watching a tv show. A typical tv show, which means despite the intricate plotlines its dumbed down for the audience. It all kinda seemed connect the dots for me, with the characters having no real motivations but to get from plotline A to plotline B. The high tech stuff and the huge secret organization didn't help either. Again, more designed to wow the audience than tell a coherent story, with real characters. And Sidney...whats up with her? She goes from helpless female to kung fu master depending on what the particular scene requires..its like remaking Holloween with The Bride as Jamie Lee..hard to see her threatened by some big bad guy right after watching her kick some other big bad guy's butt.. and boy, is she lucky..there are some HUGE implausibilites in the way the villians act, not the least being their stupidity when the script calls for it. To me, it was like trying to combine a Connery Bond film with a Roger Moore one, having it both ways. Thoughtful character study and escapest fluff at the same time, and it just doesn't work at either, at least for me.
But again, its me...remember I warned you I don't watch much tv and I'm probably just not approaching this with the proper mindset. In trying to explain myself I've come off harsher than I really mean to and I hope you're not offended. Who knows, maybe at a later date I'll watch again and see it differently. The fact that you like it is a big plus for the show-I have the highest regard for your taste and opinions, which means I will probably try watching again.
And on a happier note, started watching Wonderfalls, and love it. Seems I'm going to have to rethink my opinion of Tim Minear, the show is amazing.

The character development of Sydney and others pour on more and more as the season progresses. The beginning part is trying to hook the audience on an exciting premise and like you said, take them for a wild ride. While Alias is pretty much always a wild ride early on the character development continues and grows as the season progresses. One of the most intriguing parts is her building relationship with her father and that of course doesn't happen over the course of 2 episodes, obviously. It has some rough patches due to certain decision making.

Some SHOCKING stuff happens within the first 5 episodes due to the fact that she is unable to tell anyone who she works for even at times when she probably needs too (I'll just say it leads to certain deaths). This brings out the best of her character. Hopefully you'll get to see that eventually.

It's a much better start than the one Bones had (based on what I've heard) though, right? I'll just say it gets better and more compelling (the characters too) as it goes along, especially as the characters grow on you. One cool thing to look forward to in season 5 is Amy Acker playing one of the lead villains in season 5 and a couple of the Angel writers wrote several episodes in that season. :)

I think if you stuck with it you'll like Sydney a lot and her relationships with her friends and father (and her disgust towards SD-6 and of course, Sloane). :D The first few episodes or so were just crazy action and stuff though. It's setting up some pretty supernatural stuff too which is interesting for a show like this.

I can't remember seeing Sydney as helpless though. You'll have to refesh my memory on that. She's emotional sometimes, but helpless? Which scene was that?

Like I said though the caring about the characters happens, but it happens episode by episode as the season progresses (not too gradual though), not in two episodes.

I'd say if you're not compelled to go on after episode 5 then that is when you should probably stop completely (though it still gets better and grows on you more). Though it's hard for me to believe that it wouldn't compell someone to go on by then since it blows away 99% of everything coming out of Hollywood, including "The Descent". As much as I like it and think it's one of the best horror films in years it doesn't even hold a candle to Alias season 1 or two, IMO. Though they are very different and hard to compare, but if I had to choose which one of the two to have never had the pleasure of viewing I would drop The Descent in a heart beat without a second thought.

Obviously if I wanted to I could pick apart that film as much or moreso than Alias with implausibilities and flaws. It's easier to just over look them though and enjoy the ride though for what it is. :)

Just remember that if you don't love Alias season 1 if you should ever continue (hopefully you'll give it the same chance that you gave Bones, which had a bad start I hear.) that you can take pride in being one the very few who can say that. You'd be like the guy who doesn't think Michael Jordan is great. :D

If after episode 5 you don't think you will like it or aren't compelled to go to the next episode Alias is definitely not for you. Definitely consider going on to finish at least the first 5 episodes. You should almost certainly know by the end of the 5th episodes amazing cliffhanger if it's for you or not. If you do go on and finish the next three episodes to the end of episode 5 I'd be interested in your opinion of it be it negative or positive.

Though I along with many others though it was absolutely superb television that stands head and shoulders above 99% of tv and even most feature films. Like I said in an earlier post the pilot is made better by the great future episodes.

That's confirmation...
YOU are my evil twin.



You didn't like Firefly and judged the whole series and Serenity based on seeing hardly any of Firefly. Doesn't sound like LonWolf's evil twin to me. Sounds like someone who rushes too quickly to judgement. :D

Maybe YOU'RE HIS evil Twin. DUN DUN DUN DUN!!! :)

. And Sidney...whats up with her? She goes from helpless female to kung fu master depending on what the particular scene requires..its like remaking Holloween with The Bride as Jamie Lee..hard to see her threatened by some big bad guy right after watching her kick some other big bad guy's butt..

Just thought I'd reply to this part specifically.

1: Couldn't you say the same about Buffy? Isn't it hard to see her threatened by vampires and demons after she's killed so many vampires and demons (same for Angel)? Does the same not apply to these characters too? :)

2: I'm trying to recall a point in the first two episodes where Sydney was helpless (being at gunpoint shouldn't count, btw). It's been awhile so I'll need to be refreshed. She is a master fighter, but not every opponent is hard and not every opponent is easy.

3: By sticking with it you'd find out why she's so good at a later date.

You didn't like Firefly and judged the whole series and Serenity based on seeing hardly any of Firefly. Doesn't sound like LonWolf's evil twin to me. Sounds like someone who rushes too quickly to judgement. :D

Maybe YOU'RE HIS evil Twin. DUN DUN DUN DUN!!! :)


Emphasis on the EVIL, BTW. :D

With Age comes Experience.
With Experience comes Discrimination.
With Discrimination comes the Ability to Distinguish Shite from Shine-ola. :p :D
YMMV. :)

Buffy rocks...I love Spike and Faith...I could have done without Dawn...the suddenly appearing new teenage sister in the last couple of seasons...

but where oh where is the love for "Riley".
Poor guy doesn't even have an action figure does he?

;)


I barely remember him.

First M, I've gotta say you have a lot of class, and I'm serious about that. You tried to point me to a good show, something you love, and I repaid you by trashing it. That was uncalled for, and I regret doing it. And yet even after that you give a thoughtful answer, one that I probably didn't deserve. My hats off to you.
I can't give you a specific reply to the "helpless" part, I'd have to watch it again. But I did feel at times she played the damsel in distress, where she seemed full of fear and the audience was supposed to identify with that and be fearful too. And then of course she would kick butt and the audience can sigh with relief. Buffy or Angel never depended on their showing fear to signal the audience they were in danger-offhand I can think of very few conflicts they entered into without supreme confidence they were going to win. And when they were fearful-Buffy finding out she is going to die in S1, for example-its not brushed away with a few nifty moves or high tech tricks. Its a very big deal when either one of them is shaken enough to show fear. Besides, Buffy and Angel were never that much about the fear of losing. They dealt more with the emotional damage of winning-the inner conflicts they both fought against were far more dangerous than any external threat.

oink: I wanna be the evil one!!!!!!!

Maybe we can take turns...

oink: I wanna be the evil one!!!!!!!

Maybe we can take turns...



That's fair... :D

Anyhoot, now that I'm thinking about it...
Have I mentioned that recently I have found a semi-effective medication for PBAAAS?
AKA: Post Buffy & Angel Abandonment Anxiety Syndrome.

I have been following on the WB their new show Supernatural.
Check it out if you can...it is in re-run now...season 2 starts Sept. 28.
Looks great in HD, BTW.
Also, season 1 was just released on dvd. :)

It isn't a cure, but it soothes those nasty sores... :D

First M, I've gotta say you have a lot of class, and I'm serious about that. You tried to point me to a good show, something you love, and I repaid you by trashing it. That was uncalled for, and I regret doing it. And yet even after that you give a thoughtful answer, one that I probably didn't deserve. My hats off to you.
I can't give you a specific reply to the "helpless" part, I'd have to watch it again. But I did feel at times she played the damsel in distress, where she seemed full of fear and the audience was supposed to identify with that and be fearful too. And then of course she would kick butt and the audience can sigh with relief. Buffy or Angel never depended on their showing fear to signal the audience they were in danger-offhand I can think of very few conflicts they entered into without supreme confidence they were going to win. And when they were fearful-Buffy finding out she is going to die in S1, for example-its not brushed away with a few nifty moves or high tech tricks. Its a very big deal when either one of them is shaken enough to show fear. Besides, Buffy and Angel were never that much about the fear of losing. They dealt more with the emotional damage of winning-the inner conflicts they both fought against were far more dangerous than any external threat.

Thanks for the compliment. :)

Sydney lives to fight the bad people of the world. She's a patriot. After what happened to Danny and what she discovered in the first episode her life's entire goal is to bring down SD-6. It's what gets her up in the morning. Their world is a bit different than Buffy & Angel which has heaven and hell dimensions. The fight against evil in the Buffyverse seems to have a greater meaning. Alias is slightly more based in the real world with a bit of supernatural stuff (later on in the season). Sydney obviously fears getting a bullet pumped into her head. She also has great fear of having anyone close to her find out what she does due to what would happen to them (I'll just say this comes into play later in the season and it's fantastic). Right after the stunning episode 5 cliffhanger you get to see how much this job affects her emotionally and how good of a person she is.

There's so much that happens just in season 1 it's just insane (the last time I saw a season this insane from start to finish was Angel season 4. :)). After seeing the entire first season I look back on it and think how orignal and fantastic it was. I really cared for Sydney Bristow too, more than I expected to (this of course happens over the course over several episodes, not in just two episodes). One more thing, I'll just say that Will is too nosey for his own good and it leads to some serious problems later down the road

Alias, due to its serialized nature, works great in mini marathons. The character development hasn't really even begun much by episode 2. It's ok that you kind of trashed it. You're the first I've heard trash the pilot. :) Maybe you are suffering from Buffy/Angel withdrawal in a different way than I did. :D

I'll be checking out Bones in the near future (whenever I'm able too) and I'll definitey stick with it for awhile to see if it'll grow on me. Hopefully you'll come back to Alias soon (it was just about to start getting going real good at a nonstop rapid pace for a little while). It's definitely not something I could imagine anyone regret watching even if they didn't absolutely adore it. You haven't gotten to find out how much of a badass her father is yet either. The guy can be straight up cold. Near or at the finale shows how cold he can be. The first two season finales are among the highest rated (out of 10) I've seen on TV.com too. They rank 9.7 and 9.8. Among the highest scores I've seen so far for finales. Though Veronica Mars is right there too.

Again though. Episode 5. By the end of that if you don't a least kind of want to see what happens after that shocking ending I don't even know what to say except, just stop right there. :eek: The character development does get better though as it goes a long, LOTS of great stuff happens afterward and it does start to slow down a bit after that. Hell, actually maybe you might actually prefer it after episode 5; I'm not sure. :) I just know it gets pretty wild for the first 5 episodes or more before it slows down a bit and that episode 5 has a "Holy crap! I can't believe that just happened!" ending which is caused by Sydney not being able to come clean and it's something she'll regret for the rest of her life. Just when they make you think they were gonna end it nice and tidy "BAM! You thought wrong!" :D

PS: Marshall cracks me up. :D He too grows on you.

I see your points, M. And its not that I didn't like the pilot, only that it didn't do what it was supposed to..I felt no urge to go on watching. Remember a old show called Secret Agent, or the early Avengers when Steed's only weapon was his wits? I think I'd have liked Alias more if it had been more like that-a darker, grittier tone that was more rooted in reality. I mean even cancerman and X on the X-Files seemed more real to me than this super high tech CIA populated by super agents..and this secret covert anit-CIA she works for just seems a plot device..It might seem funny for a Buffy lover to complain about the lack of reality in this show, I know. But as I said long ago in my original post about Buffy, once you accept the basic premise Buffy is rooted in everyday human emotions and relationships. And the characters were allowed to develop before being turned on their heads and having their world torn apart. Joss trusted his characters and storytelling ability to get you hooked before he tried to lead you anywheres. Alias seems to throw everything at you from the get go, as if not trusting its audience's attention span. There's a good premise in their somewheres but I found all the gadgets and superspy stuff more distracting than anything. Sorta a "Bad Boys" with angst... But I have enough respect for your opinion that I'll watch the next 3 episodes. And I'm a big enough man to admit I was wrong if I get hooked..fair enough? And if I still don't like it, I'll concede that me and my good twin are in the minority.:) I do want to like it enough to get to Amy...
Yeah, I can see Sidney's dad is bad, but thats what I mean about it moving too fast, using a plot twist to set up the show instead of as a major revelation. Its like on VM, if Keith had been revealed as Lily's murderer in the first episode. It would have been a surprise but would have had little impact because you had no prior impression of the character.
But yes, I'll admit Alias starts off a lot better then Bones. So be kind if you start watching-its around the Christmas ep. it finally takes off. Before that, amuse yourself with all the Angel references in the show. We can compare notes.

I see your points, M. And its not that I didn't like the pilot, only that it didn't do what it was supposed to..I felt no urge to go on watching. Remember a old show called Secret Agent, or the early Avengers when Steed's only weapon was his wits? I think I'd have liked Alias more if it had been more like that-a darker, grittier tone that was more rooted in reality. I mean even cancerman and X on the X-Files seemed more real to me than this super high tech CIA populated by super agents..and this secret covert anit-CIA she works for just seems a plot device..It might seem funny for a Buffy lover to complain about the lack of reality in this show, I know. But as I said long ago in my original post about Buffy, once you accept the basic premise Buffy is rooted in everyday human emotions and relationships. And the characters were allowed to develop before being turned on their heads and having their world torn apart. Joss trusted his characters and storytelling ability to get you hooked before he tried to lead you anywheres. Alias seems to throw everything at you from the get go, as if not trusting its audience's attention span. There's a good premise in their somewheres but I found all the gadgets and superspy stuff more distracting than anything. Sorta a "Bad Boys" with angst... But I have enough respect for your opinion that I'll watch the next 3 episodes. And I'm a big enough man to admit I was wrong if I get hooked..fair enough? And if I still don't like it, I'll concede that me and my good twin are in the minority.:) I do want to like it enough to get to Amy...
Yeah, I can see Sidney's dad is bad, but thats what I mean about it moving too fast, using a plot twist to set up the show instead of as a major revelation. Its like on VM, if Keith had been revealed as Lily's murderer in the first episode. It would have been a surprise but would have had little impact because you had no prior impression of the character.
But yes, I'll admit Alias starts off a lot better then Bones. So be kind if you start watching-its around the Christmas ep. it finally takes off. Before that, amuse yourself with all the Angel references in the show. We can compare notes.


Well, I'm looking forward to your impressions by the end of episode 5, but I'm kind of thinking that it's possisble you might actually prefer the second half of the season over the first half. Afterall, you did like the later seasons of Buffy the best. So, I'm not really sure with you. :) However, go on with the next three I suppose. The second half actually starts off with a Tarantino starring 2 parter. :)

The first 5 episdoes pretty much all end with cliffhangers that make you want to see what happens next. It slows down a bit afteward and gets into some really interesting dark & compelling stuff, especially later on because of Will being nosey trying to find all the details on Danny's death. I'll just say he gets lots of great info and that is both good and really really bad for him. :) One of the really cool two part episodes starred Quentin Tarrantino (mentioned above) as the lead bad guy. That was pretty cool. That was in episodes 12 & 13. Shortly after episode 5 Sydney is thought to be a mole and you know what the means at SD-6. It was very interesting to watch how that played out. It leads to your first real glimpse at Jack "THE MAN" Bristow and how far he's willing to go.

One of the best villans on the series (He's like this show's Spike and yes he has a british accent) doesn't even get introduced until late in the season. Julian Sark. Part of what makes him great is his quick willingness to swtich sides in an instant, especially after being caught. lol. One of his famous lines I love was: "My loyalties are flexible.". One has to actually see and hear it to find it funny though.

Something else I love about a series like this is that one of the most interesting parts, like most secret identity super hero shows, is it leaves you wondering when & how one of Syd's best friends will discover her identity and how that will change things.

I don't think the twists in the pilot were anything remotely like if Keith Mars had been revealed as Lilly's killer in the pilot though. lol. IMO, that would've been the most retarded thing ever put on tv if they had done that. :D That kind of twist would not have worked, because it would serve no puprose for the series other than just being shocking and really stupid.

The twist in the Alias pilot regarding her work was to setup the premise for the show. IMO, one of the best twists I've ever seen. Even better than the Sixth Sense which when you really analyze this film it actually makes no sense (now THIS is what you call manipulative). :D Without that main twist she doesn't have a larger more compelling villain to bring down or the interesting dynamic and premise that she works for the enemy while simulatenously working for the CIA to bring down the enemy. This leads to not always good things happening.

The twist about her father explains why he is kind of a cold and emotionally distant person (but very interesting badass. lol. You'll see more later) and why he hasn't been apart of her life growing up and doesn't know how to be a father really anymore. It sets up a new and building relationship between the two. Without that twist her father serves no real purpose on the show? It would then be missing one of the best character dynamics on the series. There are some big revelations down the road as well. Not everything is as it seems on Alias either.

It was also kind of foreshadowed that her father was not an airplane parts seller by the way he spoke to Danny when Danny called for his approval on marrying Syd. I thought right then there was something up with him and that it would later be revealed. So, for me it didn't come completely out of left field.

The Pilot = Setup of the characters and premise. What they do, who they really are and what the show is really about

BTW, when did Bones hook you?

"Afterall, you did like the later seasons of Buffy the best."

Hoo, boy, does that ever open a can of worms. I have to say thats not true, M. Buffy reached perfection somewheres in the second season and never looked back. And actually, one could argue it was perfect even earlier than that-offhand I can think of 5 episodes in the first season that are as good as it gets. I just don't think the quality ever fell off in the later years. S6 +S7 are more challenging to get into, but are worth the effort, and I will stand by my comment that S7 might be the best ever. But I say that at least partly to try to shake up a lot of preconceived notions on what is good and bad about the show. The same goes for S4-I do find that one of the most interesting and rewatchable seasons of all, although I know I'm pretty much alone on that. But liking one period more than another? If I was tortured I might pick one season as the best, but I'd probably add instantly "no, wait.." Its like trying to pick a favorite character. They're all part of a whole, and the total is greater than the sum of the parts imo, so its foolish trying to seperate any of it. (and yes, I guess you could take that as saying I like the later seasons better, the same way one would "like" the end of a novel better than the buildup to it.)

Oh, the VM reference...I got the feeling it was supposed to be a shocking moment when we find out Sidney's father was in the same career she was. And then they twist that also: he's bad,,,no, wait, he's good..no bad...my point was they were giving you all these revelations about him before one had really formed an impression of him in the first place. But maybe I'm reading that wrong. And you are a persuasive guy-your descriptions of what comes later does make me want to see more. But the thing is, to keep watching I have to care what happens to the characters, and so far I haven't made that connection. I find it hard to care what happens to Sidney because I haven't had a sense of her as a real person yet, but merely as a figure to build the plot around. Maybe I just don't like JG, I dunno. But all the superspy stuff and intricate plot moves do nothing for me if I don't believe in the characters, and in the episodes I watched that hasn't happened.

Okay, about Bones..I've been trying to think when the change came, and I can't pin it down. Part of that is I had pretty much given up on it, so that it was like I was watching in a drugged stupor, it was so bad. But then it changed so drasticallly I was looking for Joss's name in the credits, it got so good so fast.. It seems like it was a couple episodes before the christmas one, but thats the one I can clearly remember laughing with glee at, it was so good. And I was amazed, nerer expecting it would get that good...so maybe there's hope for Alias after all..have your "I told you so" ready...:)

Riley was in one of the classic Buffys, HUSH and one of my faves, Restless.
I wss being a bit sarcastic actually though. I'm not sure if Riley was purposefully created to show that Buffy could never have a relationship with a normal, (non vamp) guy. Or, just that the fans weren't loving him so they wrote him off. (He wasn't the greatest actor either...)
I actually liked when Riley got a bit darker and had vamp women feeding off of him to see the what the darker side was like though. Interesting plot twist IMHO.

:)

Okay, about Bones..I've been trying to think when the change came, and I can't pin it down. Part of that is I had pretty much given up on it, so that it was like I was watching in a drugged stupor, it was so bad. But then it changed so drasticallly I was looking for Joss's name in the credits, it got so good so fast.. It seems like it was a couple episodes before the christmas one, but thats the one I can clearly remember laughing with glee at, it was so good. And I was amazed, nerer expecting it would get that good...so maybe there's hope for Alias after all..have your "I told you so" ready...:)

Well, Alias stared out way better than Bones so there should be some hope. :) I'm trying to remember when I really began caring for Sydney. I don't remember if it was the first 5 episodes or a few episodes afterward (I think it was the latter). I know her reaction to what happened at the end of episode 5 (the one I told you to watch until) played a big part in how I felt about her character and that happened in the next episode I believe.

There's so much great stuff that happens beyond episode 5 that I actually hesitated to suggest stopping after episode 5. I was gonna say episode 13, but I figured you'd probably be more willing to check out three more. :) When looking at the episode guide I'll see something great and think "If I tell he should stop after episode 5 he'll miss ________ in episode ___)". So, it was a tough decision, but I figured there might a be chance that if the "Holy crap" ending of episode 5 didn't do it then one should probably stop if not being at least a little entertained. However, if it's at least a little entertaining, fun or whatever I think one should march on, because there is lots more to come later (some great character moments too). I feel the "real person" stuff you're referring to may come a little after episode 5, but it's been awhile. Hopefully there will be enough by episode 5 to make you want to continue. The show i heavily plot oriented, but I felt they mixed the character development very well into a show so focused on the plot. Of course the character stuff improves. As bad things happen you get to know Syndey more and who she really is.

Usually I end up hooked fairly quickly with most of my new favorite series (Alias, Lost, Veronica Mars). With those the pilot did it for me. Though the caring about the characters comes with time as you get to know them better.

The latest show to hook me happened last night. Battlestar Galactica. I usually don't watch space sci-fi shows besides Firefly, but based on the rave reviews I decided to give this one a chance, especially since it involved robots instead of humanoid aliens.

I watched the 3 hour minis series. It was ok, nothing great thoughl. I could've stopped there if i wanted to, but decided to go to the series itself which was supposed to be much better. I watched the first three episodes in a row. I could see why people liked it, but I wasn't hooked or compelled to go oe. The next night I watched the 4th episode. This one almost had me hooked, yet the next day I didn't feel compelled to go on and I stopped watching for over 2 months. Last night I got bored and decided to watch again. I watched 4 episodes in a row and I guess I'm now hooked. :)

So, I realize not every show will hook everyone as quickly as a Veronica Mars, Lost or Alias (for most people). This is why I will give just about any show with rave reviews at least a 5 episode audition unless it's so bad that I want to vomit (and in those cases if the fans themselves admit to the badness I might continue if they say there is a change).

BTW, Lonwolf. Have you seen the Pilot for Lost? It's the series made by the Alias creator. I'm sure you already knew that though. I've only see the first season so far, but it's a great character study. The whole thing is mostly all about the characters, so it's much slower paced than Alias, but very good. Great cast of interesting characters and weird mysteries. My one problem is I wonder if there is a real plan for where it's all going. I hope so, because it's pretty damn good so far.

I like that you mentioned that I'm a persuasive guy, because something funny happened at DVDTalk. Someone made a Veronica Mars thread and some guy asked if it was Sci-Fi and he was told no but it was a great show. He then basically said "Thank, but I have no interest in watching it then.". I then looked at his post history to see what shows he liked and it included Buffy, Angel, Freaks & Geeks and some others. I immediately knew he was a prime candidate to be a Veronica Mars fan and I wrote a few paragraphs to convince him to give it a shot and brought up the fact that he was a Buffy, Angel fan. He told me I was very convincing and that he would give it a shot asap. He then watched it quickly afterwards, came back and said he was hooked with the pilot. :D He was so close to missing out on a great show though.

...He told me I was very convincing......we...are...in...your...power... :eek:

M: You're a class act. Sincerely. I want to like Alias just to make you happy.:) Never watched Lost, for the very reason you mentioned. I've gone down that road before, notably The X-Files and Twin Peaks. Where there is an underlying mystery with all kinds of obscure clues that I'm not quite smart enough to figure out, so I keep watching....only to find out in the end those making the show don't have a clue either and just keep adding more mysteries to disguise the fact they have no idea where they're going. I mean, as much as I liked both those shows the way they turned out left a sour taste in my mouth. Its one of the things I like about VM. One can become obsessed with the mystery knowing that it will be eventually be solved. Joss never leaves us hanging either.

[QUOTE=Dave Mack]Riley was in one of the classic Buffys, HUSH and one of my faves, Restless.
I wss being a bit sarcastic actually though. I'm not sure if Riley was purposefully created to show that Buffy could never have a relationship with a normal, (non vamp) guy. Or, just that the fans weren't loving him so they wrote him off. (He wasn't the greatest actor either...)
I actually liked when Riley got a bit darker and had vamp women feeding off of him to see the what the darker side was like though. Interesting plot twist IMHO.

:)

Ah, man...FINALLY, someone else has something good to say about S4!

I can't pick a favorite episode. there are too many. But those two are as good as any in the series, imo.

M: You're a class act. Sincerely. I want to like Alias just to make you happy.:) Never watched Lost, for the very reason you mentioned. I've gone down that road before, notably The X-Files and Twin Peaks. Where there is an underlying mystery with all kinds of obscure clues that I'm not quite smart enough to figure out, so I keep watching....only to find out in the end those making the show don't have a clue either and just keep adding more mysteries to disguise the fact they have no idea where they're going. I mean, as much as I liked both those shows the way they turned out left a sour taste in my mouth. Its one of the things I like about VM. One can become obsessed with the mystery knowing that it will be eventually be solved. Joss never leaves us hanging either.


Yeah, I see what you mean & The X-Files is a great example. However, should Lost go dramatically downhill I don't think I'd regret watching iut, because the first season is still great and it's mostly because of the characters (and of course its premise). It's pretty much completely character driven. I'd think "That's too bad.", but I wouldn't regret it. I can always pretend certain things never happened if I want to and enjoy what came before. :D Obviously I hope that's not the case though. I'm hoping it'll stay great for at least two seasons.

I do love the fact that you will have a resolved story from Joss and Veronica Mars even if it takes two seasons.

BTW, I just finished 5 more episodes of Battlestar Galactica season 1 in a row which finished out the season. It had a great finale. I'm going to have to get season 2 asap now. I watched 9 episodes in the last two days after I took over a two month break from watching. Didn't see that happening. It started to get kind of addictive though.

BTW, I also dug Buffy season 4. :D I loved Hush, Restless and several others. I loved the one where Giles turned into a demon. That was comedy gold, especially when he was tearing up things on accident, scaring Xander when he wasn't really speaking english and of course getting out of the car with Spike to scare the woman he hated, Professor Walsh. :D

Regarding Alias. Did you rent it from Netflix? If so, did you send the disc back after watching the second episode or did you keep it around? :)

Nope, rented it from Hollywood...never joined Netflix for some reason. Like holding the box in my grubby little hands before committing myself I guess...though I buy a lot of dvds and cds on line when I can't find them locally. Why?

Nope, rented it from Hollywood...never joined Netflix for some reason. Like holding the box in my grubby little hands before committing myself I guess...though I buy a lot of dvds and cds on line when I can't find them locally. Why?

I can't even remember the last time I've been in a video store thanks to Netflix. :D

I just signed up again for Netflix monday morning after finishing Battlestar Galactica season 1. The next day (today) I now have 6 dvds. :D

Battlestar Galactica season 2 and the first three discs of The Shield season 1. So, I got some watching to do. It's definitely a plus not having to worry about late fees.

Whenever you get to finish episode 5 of Alias resurrect this thread. I'll be curious to read your views. Though I already will admit the first 5 are the most fast paced episodes before it begins to slow down for a little bit. So, it has crossed my mind that it's very possible you may actually like it more later on and may even appreciate the earlier episodes more later, which were ground work for what is to come.

Despite that I'll be interested in your opinions after episode 5's big cliffhanger, but just thought I'd remind you that it does slow down a bit afterwards and the end of episode 5 does lead to caring about Sydney a lot more as a character, so keep that in mind I guess. :) So, depending on when you plan on watching the next three episodes this thread may be buried somewhere on page 2 or 3. Don't hesitate to find it and resurrect it though. :cool:

That's fair... :D

Anyhoot, now that I'm thinking about it...
Have I mentioned that recently I have found a semi-effective medication for PBAAAS?
AKA: Post Buffy & Angel Abandonment Anxiety Syndrome.

I have been following on the WB their new show Supernatural.
Check it out if you can...it is in re-run now...season 2 starts Sept. 28.
Looks great in HD, BTW.
Also, season 1 was just released on dvd. :)

It isn't a cure, but it soothes those nasty sores... :D


Lonwolf and MTyson,

Mark it on your calendar, you can thank me later. :) :cool:

M: Its interesting you brought up the Shield. Way back when I mentioned I only follow one show on tv at a time, and for the last 5 yrs. thats been the one. Its a totally new thing for me to be following 3 series like I do now(VM + Bones + The Shield), but The Shield is by far my #1. Imagine my surprise when I started watching A2 and saw Ryan's name as producer..I take it you're just starting with it then? All I can tell you is watch ep.1 carefully because its going to be very important in S5, and onwards. And by 5 Craft and Fain are maybe as much in control as Ryan, adding to the Buffy-Angel connection...sometimes watching last season I said to my wife "this is as good as Buffy"...when I stopped to think about it I had to say "nah..", but its about the only show or film that the question even comes up. And like Buffy + Angel it deals with the conflict between personal ethics and what is genelally considered the right thing to do. Good and evil are in the eye of the beholder, so to speak. Enjoy...
And boy, do I ever like Wonderfalls...

Lonwolf and MTyson,

Mark it on your calendar, you can thank me later. :) :cool:


Thanks. I've already seen all of Supernatural and have them all on my PC from Bit Torrent (high quality) since I don't watch my favorite shows on actual tv anymore. I've grown sick of commericals and poor quality in comparison so I download everything I watch the day after it airs. I may have to get that DVD set, but there are a few others to buy ahead of it. Veronica Mars season 2 and Lost Season 2.

Oh, and I'm now 5 episodes into season 2 of Battlestar Galactica, so I didn't get to start on The Shield yet. So far it's better than the first so far easily. Will most likely start watching The Shield very soon though.

The other day my best friend returned my Firefly set he borrowed and I watched "Our Mrs. Reynolds" (what a fantasic episode this was btw) and after it ended I could fill my veins fill with anger. :D

I wish Oink would watch this episode. He may have a totally different out look ont he series afterwards. :)

after it ended I could fill my veins fill with anger. :D



Why?

Hmm, I'm curious too, unless its the fact that a very interesting storyline never got a chance to develop? BIHF, you know..but I'm feeling kind of charitable to those poor guys that don't have a clue. Bones started its second season tonight and promptly went to a whole new level. THIS is how to do a story arc...its becoming a great show.

Hmm, I'm curious too, unless its the fact that a very interesting storyline never got a chance to develop? BIHF, you know..but I'm feeling kind of charitable to those poor guys that don't have a clue. Bones started its second season tonight and promptly went to a whole new level. THIS is how to do a story arc...its becoming a great show.

Nice to see that someone else likes Bones. I disagree about the taking it to a new level. I thought last night's show was one of those: "just a bunch of things that happen" shows. I like it a bit more as a mystery and certainly the relation/repartee between Bones and Booth is pretty good.

Why?

Because it was one of the best stand alone episodes of a tv show I've ever seen and I know there will never be another great Firefly episode made ever again. Very funny, smart and original episode (written by Whedon) with a great ending.

Watch it and you'll see why too (of course that will require you to take off your Firefly hating goggles first. ;) ).

Then you can come back here and admit that you might've been wrong about the series afterall. :D Of course I have have you pegged as the stubborn type that would never admit to being wrong (especially after all you've said) and not the type who would easily admit to being wrong about something. I'm basing that on your post history regarding the subject, of course.

Somewhere in the world there is a potential Buffy fan who probably had the luck of seeing "Beer Bad" as his/her first Buffy episode and then never pursued watching the rest from the beginning because of it.

I challenge you to watch that episode and post an opinion. I doubt you will though, because you'd have a real hard time trying to come up with a negative review of it. :D

Battlestar Galactica took one 3 hour mini series and 5 episodes before I was hooked. After episode 4 I stopped watching for over 2 months and began to think maybe it wasn't my cup of tea. Not because I thought it was bad. It just didn't hook me; We didn't quite click. I decided to go on one day after getting bored and then finished the remainder of the season in the next two days. 4 days later I got season 2 and am now 8 episodes into it.







BTW Lonwolf. I started on The Shield. Great show. I watched 8 episodes in a row. If it maintains this level upto to right now it's in my current top 5 show on tv which now consists of (new and updated list in no particular order):

Veronica Mars
24
Lost
Battlestar Galactica
The Shield

Runners Up: Family Guy, My Name is Earl & Supernatural. I also follow Smallville which has its ups and downs, but I like the characters. Supernatural is one of the few shows where the stand alones are better than the story arc.

I actually like S4 of Buffy alot, Lonwolf. The whole throwing the Scoobies out of their natural comfort area was great. Buff and Willow and Oz in college, Xander wandering around, Giles being an unemployed bachelor who has a TV!!! I also LOVE the Halloween epsiode, Anya as a giant bunny. "Superstar" with Johnathan, Faith waking up and the crossover to Angel, Neutered Spike.... I could go on and on...

;)

Nice to see that someone else likes Bones. I disagree about the taking it to a new level. I thought last night's show was one of those: "just a bunch of things that happen" shows. I like it a bit more as a mystery and certainly the relation/repartee between Bones and Booth is pretty good.

Well, yes and no. The changes were subtle and I might be imagining things. But it seemed to me the dialog went up a notch and there was a lot of humor in offhand remarks, almost like someone else we know.:) Plus the actors seem more comfortable, as if they have come to terms with who the characters they play are. The way the characters behave sets up the story, instead of the story dictating how the characters behave. Like I said subtle. Plus the story arc-again its not solving the mystery of Brennen's father that grabs you. Its how solving it is going to effect her. Again, like someone else we know..
M, I think you're wrong about oink. This is one little piggy who's a big enough man to admit when he's wrong. Course I might be biased since were related..and hey, Beer Bad ain't that bad. And about The Shield. In some ways the 1st season is the weakest of the bunch. So if you can get by the profanity and violence and general pessimistic tone(which you must be able to, if you're that far along) you have some great viewing ahead of you. The 5th season is undenaibly the best, but its not going to mean as much without following it all the way through, so don't cheat!:)
Dave: I never cared as much for Spike as lapdog than I did as villian, but they eventually made it work. And that, along with the other things you mentioned, is why I find S4 so interesting. And a very good insight about taking the characters out of their comfort zone and putting them in a new environment. So many seem to think they just substituted college for high school and that leads to their dissatisfaction with the season. But its really a much more profound change than that and its this season when the story really becomes epic for me. And its also when Buffy begins to see that her dream of seperating her "mission" from her normal life is just not going to work. Thats what Riley represents for me. He's the guy her "normal" self considers ideal, but her slayer self just can't accept as an equal. Even more, she learns even the most normal individual is going to be changed by contact with her world.
Hmm, I think I can address the original topic of darkness in Buffy now. Season 2 is dark because she sacrifices her love for her duty. From season 4 on she sacrifices, in one way or another, her life. Everything she tries to cling to that preseved her illusion of being normal she eventually loses, or willingly gives up, to fulfill her destiny. AND, thats dark...

.

Watch it and you'll see why too (of course that will require you to take off your Firefly hating goggles first. ;) ).

Then you can come back here and admit that you might've been wrong about the series afterall. :D Of course I have have you pegged as the stubborn type that would never admit to being wrong (especially after all you've said) and not the type who would easily admit to being wrong about something. I'm basing that on your post history regarding the subject, of course.

Somewhere in the world there is a potential Buffy fan who probably had the luck of seeing "Beer Bad" as his/her first Buffy episode and then never pursued watching the rest from the beginning because of it.

I challenge you to watch that episode and post an opinion. I doubt you will though, because you'd have a real hard time trying to come up with a negative review of it. :D


I have decided to watch Serenity someday...
But I draw the line at Firefly...I cannot accept the premise. ;)

But you have no problem with a vampire slaying valley girl? Do you have any idea how silly that sounds?:)

...I draw the line at Firefly...I cannot accept the premise. ;)That's exactly what kept me away from Buffy. All I can say is that I'm sure glad I was talked into giving it a chance!

But you have no problem with a vampire slaying valley girl? Do you have any idea how silly that sounds?:)


Are you implying that valley girls SHOULDN'T become slayers? :D

I have decided to watch Serenity someday...
But I draw the line at Firefly...I cannot accept the premise. ;)

Yeah, that's believeable, especially since it's coming from a Buffy The Vampire Slayer fan. :D

So you can accept the premise of Serenity even though it's basically the Firefly finale with less character development and a bigger budget? That makes no sense. Just know that there are episodes of Firefly which rank ahead of it.

It is not the premise that makes any show great or bad. It's the characters, the writing and the directing. Buffy is my all time favorite show, but its premise sounds just as ridiculous (if not moreso) as Firefly's.

Tell me this Oink. Do you like Buffy because it's about a young female vampire slayer or do you like it because it has great characters, writing and directing? If your answer is the former then you should definitely avoid Firefly.

You know, you should just begin to accept the possibility that you might have been wrong all along just so you can make yourself take the "Our Mrs. Reynolds" challenge without bias and report back with your positive review. That will make it far easier to admit to being wrong. :D We promise not to gloat afterwards about how we were right all along. :)

BTW, you don't even know the "premise" as well as you think you do. If you stuck with it you'd soon discover how little the premise matters at all on the series. Whedon shows aren't about premises; They're about great characters. If you think all the episodes are like The Train Job you'd be wrong.

I'll tell ya what...

Whenever Firefly comes up in reruns, I'll try to watch...
But only in the correct episode sequence... ;)

I'll tell ya what...

Whenever Firefly comes up in reruns, I'll try to watch...
But only in the correct episode sequence... ;)

It's always good to keep an open mind. :D Though I wonder what all they cut out in reruns. I remember watching a great Buffy episode rerun once and the cut out one of the funniest lines in the episode and I couldn't believe it. Which is why I'll never watch reruns of a show I haven't seen.

Once it gets to "Our Mrs. Reynolds" (some will say Jaynestown) it's pretty much all gold from there on out and you'll see how little the "premise" matters. To me it's simply about a great cast of characters trying to survive. There is one SUPERB episode where they're on the ship running out of oxygen. You can't really define that with a premise. It's simply a great episode about great characters.

The reason why I suggested Our Mrs. Reynolds is because it's a near perfect stand alone episode that you don't need to see in order and it would most likely get you more interested in starting from the beginning, but by all means start from the begining. Just know that it gets better as it goes along. The original pilot is definitely better than The Train Job though.

Oink: If you watch all the episodes of Firefly and still say its trash, I promise to watch all 5 seasons of Alias.(There are only 5 seasons, right? Please say there are only 5 seasons:))
Gotta deal?

Oink: If you watch all the episodes of Firefly and still say its trash, I promise to watch all 5 seasons of Alias.(There are only 5 seasons, right? Please say there are only 5 seasons:))
Gotta deal?

4 full seasons and 1 shortened 17 episode season. So, yes, 5 seasons. 2 Superb ones. One very good one. One weak-mediocre one and one pretty decent one (all in that order).

Sounds like a good deal to me (though you should still watch the first 5 on your own without the deal. :) ), but it's hard to imagine that someone could possibly "hate" Firefly after having seen them all, especially someone who is a Buffy/Whedon fan.

Oink: If you watch all the episodes of Firefly and still say its trash, I promise to watch all 5 seasons of Alias.(There are only 5 seasons, right? Please say there are only 5 seasons:))
Gotta deal?


Huh?? :confused:

I never said Alias was good...
In fact, I thought Alias was a silly MTV-influenced POS.

I wouldn't wish Alias on anybody...except maybe my ol' buddy Sanjay. :D

Huh?? :confused:

I never said Alias was good...
In fact, I thought Alias was a silly MTV-influenced POS.

I wouldn't wish Alias on anybody...except maybe my ol' buddy Sanjay. :D


You have a really bad habit of premature judgement. Not a good quality man. Not a good quality at all. Let me guess you saw one or two episodes? You're opinion would be taken more seriously had you not ragged on Firefly endlessly like you had viewed the entire series and knew it like the back of your hand when in fact you had only viewed one episode out of order and not even one of the better ones.

All I can say is you're gonna miss out on a lot of great shows due to your premature judgement and lack of patience. That's fine though. My open mind and patience has paid off several times with series I thought I couldn't like, therefor I no longer rush to early judgement like I used to when I was younger.

If I had only seen one or two Buffy episodes I wouldn't be the fan I am today. Perhaps I would be on here saying it was a POS teen series if I lacked the patience to stick with it and let it grow on me. Who knows. All I knowfor certain is that I definitely would not be calling it the greatest show ever having seen very very little of it, because I'd have no way to forsee that I would end up liking it that much.

You're in the minority BIG time when it comes to Firefly & Alias and I bet it's almost 100% because of closed mindedness and premature judgement of an entire series. Not for any other reason at all.

I guess Buffy is darn lucky that you didn't catch one of worst episode first or you'd be here right now stating what a POS sereis was from beginning to end. :D

Okay, calm down everyone...:) oink: I got what you thought of Alias, and you and I seem
pretty much in agreement on that. Thats the basis of the wager. I thought if you were willing to sit down and watch 12 episodes of something you were sure you wouldn't like, the least I could do is watch 110 episodes of Alias...hmm, that might not have been the smartest bet I've ever made, now that I think about it...but hey, I'm game if you are, Stop and think about it for a second-you and I seem to agree on nearly everything except for this one little show. Our tastes are so similiar in fact that I'm almost positive that after watching it you and I discussed it, one of us could persuade the other he's right. At the very least it would be interesting.

You have a really bad habit of premature judgement.


Well, duh...I'm male...that's what males do... :p

Whether I'm premature, or not, isn't a subject for public forum... :D

Buffy is waaaay too perfect for my tastes.

She is the Bionic woman, but intrinsically more beautiful; she has personality, and a focused mission, and she has soul, and she is a troubled teen, and she can overcome her prejudices enough to date a vampire, and she is oh-so-young; and ... excuse me while I puke.


:)

Well, duh...I'm male...that's what males do... :p

Whether I'm premature, or not, isn't a subject for public forum... :D


Nice. :)

I just thought that the MTV-influence comment was a bit weak, IMO. You saw what? One episode? I assume it was the pilot, which many out there believe to be arguably the best pilot epsidoe for any series. During that pilot they told a great story and setup a great premise for a series. It was feature film quality, but with a better story than most feature films. In that double lengthed pilot episode they played a few songs, big deal. One was a short scene with Jen strutting her stuff with red hair in the airport that lasted how many seconds?

Most of them fit the episode perfectly (even if one didn't it's not like it lasted long) and in no way degraded the story and the setup of the characters & premise of the series. I think they often choose the music quite well for the series and it does no distract me from the pure entertainment that Alias is.

BTW, if it truly was so "MTV influenced" it would have to turn into a reality show. :D

Buffy is waaaay too perfect for my tastes.

She is the Bionic woman, but intrinsically more beautiful; she has personality, and a focused mission, and she has soul, and she is a troubled teen, and she can overcome her prejudices enough to date a vampire, and she is oh-so-young; and ... excuse me while I puke.


:)


Thread, meet fart. Fart, meet thread.


So let me get this straight... you don't like Buffy yet you bother to post a thread-fart in a Buffy thread.

And today's award for the AVS member with no life goes to....

= It was feature film quality, but with a better story than most feature films.

OK...I respect your opinion.

My opinion is different from yours.

Isn't it great to live in this country? ;)

UM, if the pilot was so great, then why do I have to watch more to decide I don't like it? And there are really many who think its better than the pilot for Twin Peaks? That is feature film quality, Alias doesn't fare too well compared to that. Just my opinion, and yes it is great to live in this country...

So let me get this straight... you don't like Buffy yet you bother to post a thread-
..

LOL you can look at it that way if you want; its a free forum. but I was actually looking for someone to debate whether Buffy is indeed too perfect - or if she has some flaws that make her realistic.

Instead I found someone who wants to talk about farts, just my luck :D

What you did is basically considered thread crapping and is frowned upon here.

UM, if the pilot was so great, then why do I have to watch more to decide I don't like it? And there are really many who think its better than the pilot for Twin Peaks? That is feature film quality, Alias doesn't fare too well compared to that.

I was going to say that...but, I decided to be sweet... :D

John: Your post wasn't exactly worded to provoke calm, reasoned discusion, was it? You're looking to debate by telling us of your need to vomit? Well, I guess we all have our unique ways to express our intellect...
See, read that paragraph I just wrote...does that put you in the mood for a friendly chat? And I bent over backwards to keep it nice. And the thing is you're smart enough to know exactly the kind of response your post would provoke, right? Its some sort of giggle at us Buffy fans, to show your superiority? Why bother?
Now, your 2nd post, I can relate to that. I'm kinda stunned that you thought Buffy was perfect, but I assume you've only sampled a few episodes? I can only say what hooked me, and of course I could be completely wrong, but..the thing that got me from the beginning was just how fragile this superhero was. She's dying for approval and seems ready for a nervous breakdown at any moment. Blames herself for her parent's divorce, is very aware she isn't living up to her mother's expectations, doesn't know who she is or how she fits in...Part of her is dying to be the bubble headed blonde cheerleader she used to be but she's no longer good at it. So she naturally drifts to the outcasts of her school and strives for their approval. And the more she succeeds at slaying the more her "Normal" life suffers. And it doesn't get any better as the seasons go on. The girl is a mess, and its only in her "mission" she finds any self worth. Compared to her Peter Parker comes off as a childish whiner(talking the film versions of PP)

[QUOTE=oink]I was going to say that...but, I decided to be sweet... :D

Yeah, its not my finest moment thats for sure. I mean its what I think and all but the tone was uncalled for. Came home tonight meaning to delete it, but now you quoted me, damn...but really, the pilot just didn't do it for me, sorry M. I'll still watch more out of respect for your opinion, which, if you stop and think about it, shows just how high a regard I have for your taste... Now, oink-you taking the bet or not?

Yeah, its not my finest moment thats for sure. I mean its what I think and all but the tone was uncalled for. Came home tonight meaning to delete it, but now you quoted me, damn...but really, the pilot just didn't do it for me, sorry M. I'll still watch more out of respect for your opinion, which, if you stop and think about it, shows just how high a regard I have for your taste... Now, oink-you taking the bet or not?


What are you talking about?
You're apologizing for NOT liking a show that M likes??

Hmmmm....we need to go get a beer.... :D

There isn't a minimum/maximum number of series' episodes one must watch in order to determine whether a show worth following.
After all, life is short. ;)

What you did is basically considered thread crapping and is frowned upon here.

Oh my, frowned upon? That would be horrible for ... an ant.

So true, my words were unnecessarily inciteful. I've only watched the second season, and its pretty good, for a TV show. Firefly its not, IMHO.

John: Your post wasn't exactly worded to provoke calm, reasoned discusion, was it? You're looking to debate by telling us of your need to vomit? Well, I guess we all have our unique ways to express our intellect...
See, read that paragraph I just wrote...does that put you in the mood for a friendly chat? And I bent over backwards to keep it nice. And the thing is you're smart enough to know exactly the kind of response your post would provoke, right? Its some sort of giggle at us Buffy fans, to show your superiority? Why bother?
Now, your 2nd post, I can relate to that. I'm kinda stunned that you thought Buffy was perfect, but I assume you've only sampled a few episodes? I can only say what hooked me, and of course I could be completely wrong, but..the thing that got me from the beginning was just how fragile this superhero was. She's dying for approval and seems ready for a nervous breakdown at any moment. Blames herself for her parent's divorce, is very aware she isn't living up to her mother's expectations, doesn't know who she is or how she fits in...Part of her is dying to be the bubble headed blonde cheerleader she used to be but she's no longer good at it. So she naturally drifts to the outcasts of her school and strives for their approval. And the more she succeeds at slaying the more her "Normal" life suffers. And it doesn't get any better as the seasons go on. The girl is a mess, and its only in her "mission" she finds any self worth. Compared to her Peter Parker comes off as a childish whiner(talking the film versions of PP)

UM, if the pilot was so great, then why do I have to watch more to decide I don't like it? And there are really many who think its better than the pilot for Twin Peaks? That is feature film quality, Alias doesn't fare too well compared to that. Just my opinion, and yes it is great to live in this country...


Because most that saw the pilot saw the rest of the season which makes the pilot greater in the long run. :) Which are your favorite pilots btw?

BTW, yes there are plenty of people who think it had a better pilot than Twin Peaks. There was a thread somewhere for the best pilot and Alias was mentioned more times than most other series. Of course about 100% of them had gone on to view the rest of the season too. :) Alias and The Shield seemed to have the highest number of votes. Oddly enough the thread was started because of someone's love for the Twin Peak's pilot. :)

I can't give an opinion personally since I have never seen Twin Peaks. I've only seen previews. Though based on that alone it looked dated and overhyped, but I'll check it out. I just know that of all the pilots I have seen (I've seen a lot) Alias is the one I consider to be the best, even better than the pilot for Lost, which is one of the best ones ever also. Of course I went on to view the rest and maybe that altered my perception of the pilot. Maybe not. I ended up too addicted to really think about it right after viewing it. I had time think about it after I was done with the season though. :D

What are you talking about?
You're apologizing for NOT liking a show that M likes??

Hmmmm....we need to go get a beer.... :D

There isn't a minimum/maximum number of series' episodes one must watch in order to determine whether a show worth following.
After all, life is short. ;)

He's keeping an open mind which is a good thing. He thought Bones started off terribly and look what happened when he stuck with it (for longer than 5 episodes). He got hooked and now he loves it. He could've just give up on it and would've continued hating it, but he didn't and it paid off. NOt every show will pay off in this way, but some will.

It's still very possible that he may give up on Alias should he decide not to go on after the episode 5 cliffhanger (thought he will have been the first I have known to do so), but even that doesnt mean he couldn't be hooked by going a bit further. From what I've heard it took a lot longer for him to like Bones. You can't always predict when a show will hook you. This is why I search out very highly reviewed shows. Usually I am hooked quickly by the ones with rave reviews. If not, I stick with it for a bit to see if it grows on me or if there is a point where suddenly things just click. To keep myself going though I try to focus on the good things. If you focus too much on negative aspects (especially minor ones) it just makes it easier to give up.


There will be some of us who stick with a show for a little bit longer based on all of the high reviews (and respect for certain posters' opinions) and those who will come to premature judgement and think their opinion should be taken as gospel. I respect the opinon of those who give a series a decent chance before giving up, especially if they are the type who feel the need to express their negative opinions often. :)

It's fine if he never connects with Alias, but it deserves a decent chance. We can't all like every single one of the same shows to the same degree anyway. 5 episodes isn't much and it too longer for Bones to hook him. The only reason why he gave Bones that chance was because Buffy & Angel existed. :)

So true, my words were unnecessarily inciteful. I've only watched the second season, and its pretty good, for a TV show. Firefly its not, IMHO.


You should watch the third season. Those who didn't love season 2 will find it to be a big step up overall. The more epic story arcs though seem to happen by season 3 and later. Hell, several of the best characters aren't even regulars or haven't even been introduced yet. It's definitely worth it to go on. Every person I know of personally who has stuck with Buffy ended up watching all of Angel and Firefly and absolutely loved all three of them. Plus, while the majority of Buffy fans find seasons 2 & 3 to be the best there are still very many who found some of the laters seasons to be better. It's very subjective.

Season 3 is great though. My all time favorites are seasons 3 & 5.

Every person I know of personally who has stuck with Buffy ended up watching all of Angel and Firefly and absolutely loved all three of them. Well, you know one now. I'm as big a Buffy fan as you'll meet,. While I watched and enjoyed Angel when broadcast, I never loved the show and have no desire to watch the episodes again. I own none of the DVD's. And while I like and respect Firefly, my judgement is far from "absolute love."

If you'd ever hung out on an Buffy fan board, you'd have seen tons of people who weren't into Angel, Firefly or both when broadcast.

Well, you know one now. I'm as big a Buffy fan as you'll meet,. While I watched and enjoyed Angel when broadcast, I never loved the show and have no desire to watch the episodes again. I own none of the DVD's. And while I like and respect Firefly, my judgement is far from "absolute love."

If you'd ever hung out on an Buffy fan board, you'd have seen tons of people who weren't into Angel, Firefly or both when broadcast.

I have before and those tons are still in the minority big time no matter how you slice it. There are some of those who loved Angel and not Buffy too, but that's not usually the case. Generally a big Buffy fan is also a big Angel fan and plenty of times also a Firefly fan too.

Firefly I didn't love until a second viewing. Well, techinically not a second. I had watched about 8 episodes in a row on TV and thought it was "pretty good". I finally got around to viewing the DVD set years later (earlier this year I believe) in order in an optimal home theater setting (which is where all of my serious viewing takes place) and after the second viewing I loved it. I don't know how to explain the difference in how I saw the series.

Like Firefly I liked Angel much better my second time through. The show is also much better for DVD viewing than watching on broadcast. It just flows better.

If you'd ever hung out on an Buffy fan board, you'd have seen tons of people who weren't into Angel, Firefly or both when broadcast.

I bet you are right! However, I bet you would find that many of the original fans of Buffy (while Angel was part of the show) transferred their interest to Angel when he left. Angel presented itself as a darker and more adult show.

BTW I am not deriding Buffy or her fans, just noting a common opinion. :D

Now to the point. Of all those fans of Buffy who actually preferred Angel, I bet NEARLY ALL OF THEM LOVED FIREFLY (an extremely dark and adult show).

Chris.

I have to say I'm kinda glad I discovered Buffy-Angel late, and never read any of the fan stuff until I had formed my own opinion of the show. By doing it that way I strived to make the whole series fit together, and succeeded at that to my own satisfaction. For me, it is a coherent whole, a genuine myth that all ties together. Admittingly, there are some jarring moments in the later seasons, a few WTF moments on the first viewing. But I loved it enough to watch a 2nd time and found it all fitted together surprisingly well...and the 3rd time through, to my amazement, the season I had previously thought the weakest now seemed as good as any, and maybe my favorite overall.(S7,btw). Its all a matter of perceptions really, what we bring to the table when we watch. If its been planted in your head that there is a real difference in quality because Joss wasn't as involved, or that Marti ruined the series, or that S7 is disjointed, then one can find plenty in the episodes to support that. And that could be a sign of the dangers of too much "insider" info-it distorts how you view the show. Plus it gets a little silly-so much of what people "know" contradicts what Jpss himself has said, so you almost have to conclude he's lying, or didn't know as much about his own show as some of the websites. Anywho, I'm living proof that it can work, that the whole series can be viewed as an unquailified success. And if I'm the only one that does see it that way, I feel pretty lucky: Joss + company made 144 episodes, over 7 years, just for me! And if that makes me dumber, or less a "real" fan, than those who fault how the show turned out, I can live with it. Seems to me I'm having the richer experience.

Hey, John out in LA-I'm humbled by how classy a guy you are. I'd agree you should continue on, but if you can watch S2 without feeling a desperate need for more, than maybe not. S2 is where I started too, btw., and I thought it ended so perfectly there was no way they could go on with the show without going downhill. For me anyways, I was wrong, and S3 is when the show "grows up". Its still set in high school, but they are sneaking in more universal themes that apply to more than just the teen years. Lovers Walk and Amends would be examples of what I mean, as well as the whole Faith storyline. You owe it to yourself to at least meet Faith, if only to see a slayer as slut.(there, that should whet your interest!) And Wesley too...its worth watching the whole series and Angel too just for the amazing transformation of that character.
Chris, I'm intigued by what you think makes Firefly darker and more adult than Buffy-Angel. Please esplain..

And that could be a sign of the dangers of too much "insider" info-it distorts how you view the show. Plus it gets a little silly-so much of what people "know" contradicts what Jpss himself has said, so you almost have to conclude he's lying, or didn't know as much about his own show as some of the websites. If you really want to have fun with this, start thinking about the third slayer (the one called when Buffy died in The Gift). Many hard core fans (including myself) will be happy to explain why she most likely exists, despite claims to the contrary from Joss and the good folks at ME. What do those idiots know about the Buffyverse :D

Note - if you think "Deckard was/wasn't a replicant" arguments are geeky, you haven't seen anything till you've seen the horror of third slayer debates.

LOL...good post NNG.

Oh my, frowned upon? That would be horrible for ... an ant.

Ok, now you're just be a trolling a... Go annoy people in other threads.
Let's get this straight, you don't like the main character in a show enough to bother to come into a thread about the show just to say you want to vomit. Why are you bothering to even read this thread, let alone post in it? Wish I had all that free time...

[QUOTE=NewNameGuy]If you really want to have fun with this, start thinking about the third slayer (the one called when Buffy died in The Gift). Many hard core fans (including myself) will be happy to explain why she most likely exists, despite claims to the contrary from Joss and the good folks at ME. What do those idiots know about the Buffyverse :D

Note - if you think "Deckard was/wasn't a replicant" arguments are geeky, you haven't seen anything till you've seen the horror of third slayer debates.

But...god I shouldn't be saying this, I've been warned... oh, the heck with it.
It doesn't matter if Buffy dies again, she's already out of the loop as far as a new slayer being formed. Kendra replaced her, and when she died slayerhood didn't go back to Buffy-a new one was created. Faith is the "official" slayer and not until she dies would a new one come into existance. At least thats how Andrew explained it to me in this dream I had..

Lonwolf,

We have never had a spat.
But please tell me that Buffy Rules...my heart couldn't take the shock otherwise... ;)

It doesn't matter if Buffy dies again, she's already out of the loop as far as a new slayer being formed. Kendra replaced her, and when she died slayerhood didn't go back to Buffy-a new one was created. Faith is the "official" slayer and not until she dies would a new one come into existance. At least thats how Andrew explained it to me in this dream I had..It's a nice theory - one many people, including ME staffers, have. There's just one problem with it - nothing within the show supports it. Within the show, Buffy continues to be "The Slayer" (or, "Slayer comma The") and Faith is "a slayer". The consequences of Buffy's death - post Kendra - are discussed by multiple characters on multiple occasions and in each case the person talking - everyone from The Mayor to Buffy herself - believe Buffy's death would call a new slayer. The slayer calling mechanism is consistently described throughout the show as "a slayer dies, another is called." Buffy died at the end of The Gift. Based on everything presented within the show, we should assume another slayer was called.

If Joss says otherwise, he's either lying or doesn't understand the Buffyverse as well as internet geeks (you knew that argument was coming). And if anyone thinks it silly to doubt the all-powerful-Joss, keep in mind this is the same guy that insisted there would be so slayer called when Kendra died.

Joss, keep in mind this is the same guy that insisted there would be so slayer called when Kendra died.

He lied so the element of surprised would not be ruined. It's called not giving spoilers for your own show. :)

He lied so the element of surprised would not be ruined. It's called not giving spoilers for your own show. :)

Nah, NNG is right-Joss had no clue about his own creation. :)

Actually, he did. Its explained in S7.

Nah, NNG is right-Joss had no clue about his own creation. :)

Actually, he did. Its explained in S7.

That's probably why they ended of the show the way they did. To end the argument and to shut everyone up. As if.

NewNameGuy: If I haven't said it lately, a sincere thanks for all your insights. For one, your posts are always civil, even when I'm gushing like a fan boy geek. Plus you explain yourself so well-so much of the other comments by those who grew disillusioned with the later seasons are simply "it sucks", or "its a mess" which really isn't too enlightening. You always explain your problems with the direction of the show, and even concede there are other ways of looking at it, which is refreshing. And you make me think...ultimately I don't agtee, of course, but often I still feel like Cane(sp?) at the feet of a zen master-I half expect you to call me grasshopper.:)
I discovered this show late, and started posting about it while I watched. And there were so many with helpful, kind comments to this johnny come lately. But three stood out, and I'll always be indebted to them for their guidance. I'm still firm in my belief that Buffy is the most enriching viewing experience I've ever had, and the three of you will always have my gratitude and respect for helping me along. Just wanted to say that, as sappy as it sounds. Thanks.( and you too, M and sergie..)

Thanks. ( and you too, M and sergie..)

No problem. :) I'm flying through The Shield btw. I'm already on episode 7 of season 2. :)

Have been following the new Blade series on SpikeTV.
Not bad...it gets better with each viewing.
The characters are becoming interesting.
IF you need a Bite Fix, give it a try. :)

This Sat. they are running a marathon to give newcomers a chance to get caught up.

I happened to catch a few minutes of Blade last night. Did think of Buffy, but it wasn't a flattering comparison for Blade...but I really didn't watch enough to form an impression.
Whats everybody think of Wonderfalls? Just finished it and think its amazing it ever got on tv. I loved it, but its hard imagining any network exec having a clue about the show.:) Talk about quirky..

Tucson has an independent theater that shows Once More With Feeling as a singalong. Went to a showing last night. Pretty much fun. Some costumes and they showed the unaired pilot. Shorter than the aired pilot with a dumpier actress for Willow (which probably was the initial idea). It was funnier than the aired pilot and pretty good.

BTW, I am rewatching the last season of Buffy for the first time since the final season and am liking more than I did when it aired. I think I got caught up in the websites/speculations/spoilers when I watched it which ruined it a bit. Now I can just sit back and enjoy.

I happened to catch a few minutes of Blade last night. Did think of Buffy, but it wasn't a flattering comparison for Blade...but I really didn't watch enough to form an impression.

Blade is NOT in the same league as Buffy/Angel.
NOT even close.

However, it is in the same genre and, for me, it is better than nothing.
I'll drop it like a hot potatoe if it becomes ignorant. ;)

Tucson has an independent theater that shows Once More With Feeling as a singalong. Went to a showing last night. Pretty much fun. Some costumes and they showed the unaired pilot. Shorter than the aired pilot with a dumpier actress for Willow (which probably was the initial idea). It was funnier than the aired pilot and pretty good.

BTW, I am rewatching the last season of Buffy for the first time since the final season and am liking more than I did when it aired. I think I got caught up in the websites/speculations/spoilers when I watched it which ruined it a bit. Now I can just sit back and enjoy.

I heard Boston does that every year? If only someone would do that a little closer to me...
Great comment on how some let their opinions be shaped by outside influences and not whats onscreen.:) I've just started S7 again too-1st time I've watched it without going through all the other seasons first. My opinion of it keeps growing..

We were all set to do a Boston one a few years back and it got cancelled. Fox came down upon them I believe...

and S7 is MUCH better the 2nd time around. Uneven sure, but even less than perfect Buffy is better than about anything else on TV IMHO. This is what I wrote on amazon for S7...

" "Jazz" version of Buffy...., May 16, 2005
I missed a couple when broadcast, (was busy...)
and now watching these back to back without a week or sometimes several in between, I've gotta say that like S6, I'm much more into them the 2nd time around. Since I know where it's going and all of the major twists, I'm just appreciating the execution and not stressing on where I would have wanted the story, characters to go. Just enjoying the ride. Basically my take is it's the jazz version of Buffy. They have changed up the rythyms, and the structure that we have been accustomed to. Whether 1 likes it or not, it IS something a bit different. So far I'm liking it. And it is VERY unpredictable IMHO. And several eps. are downright eerie. Except for "Hush", Buffy never really gave me the Willies (save for a well placed jolt here and there) but some of these eps. like "conversations" are genuinely freaky. The fact that everyone is a bit different character-wise adds to this. 7 seasons of the same characters acting the exact same can get kinda dull. Like David Lynch got his hands on a Buffy treatment. And there is actually a sense of danger. Like ALL of the Scoobies can get their asses handed to them and even die. The fact that the First can mess with your head so much and you never know if a character is REAL or not is a bit unnerving IMHO. Spike is pretty menacing in these first few, like he can actually do some damage again. The scene where he grabs Anya's arm while she's going through his clothes is great, but then plays out TOTALLY differently than you'd think. Now I do seem to recall by the last 2 eps. it's kinda back to normal, saddle up, face off, Faith back but SMG in charge again... and that's all good, like the end of S5, But for the 1st 1/2, I'm into the fact that it's out there. I know there's a dull, talky patch ahead prior to the last few, but with these actors now as good as they are, SMG simply a marvel to behold and Marsters doing exemplary work, I think I can handle it. And I have missed a few, so there will be a few surprises in store..... I personally find the "dark, broody" Buffy eps. far more interesting than the peppy, goofy all is good by the end types that dominated S1 and part of S2.... Now, I'm not saying it's the best, (either S3 or S5 is IMHO... S2 I've always felt was a bit overrated...) but it's certainly the weirdest and in many ways perhaps the most intruiging Season.

So, let the arrows fly, I know I'm in the minority.
But if one can watch these like I'm doing back to back, it might be better or more interesting than the way we were forced to by the broadcast year. Certainly was revelatory to me...

All this is of course, just my opinion....


D "

Dave: I sincerely and earnestly say this: I wish I'd wrote that. I've read quite a few books on Buffy by now and that is as good a take on the show as any I've ever read. Course it helps that I agree with every word...Great, great post-you've got sentences in there that could be developed into full essays, almost too many ideas in there to get in one reading.
Or to put it simply: I like your post.:)

Wow! Thanks man! I do appreciate that!
I guess Buffy just gets me going. I often wind up defending the show or explaining why I think it's so great to the uninitiated because I named my dog Buffy. People always say, "Awww! Cute! Wait.... She's not named after Buffy the Vampire Slayer, is she?"
I can get very animated about it. I went through a very, very rough patch in my life during Season 6 and really bonded with the show then. The Musical episode especially for me was like therapy or medicine. "The hardest thing in this world, is to live in it..."

btw, here's my Buffy

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/844/buffysmilingupst5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Also the guy who played "manny the manager" in "Doublemeat Palace is in a show at the theater Me and my gf work at. We were all psyched and my gf metioned to him in a staff email how she was a huge Buffy junkie and thought he was great in the episode and he never responded. Doesn't seem like the friendliest guy...

but...

I actually screamed out loud at work at the end of the Season 5 finale while at work back in NYC. I worked at a B'way theater backstage and every tuesday nite had Buffy on during the show, "The Dinner Party" which had John Ritter in it. He guested (awesomely too) in the S2 ep. "Tim" and he told me that he loved being on Buffy and loved the show. Always said, "cool. Buffy's on..." on tuesday nites when he'd walk past me to go onstage... Good memories. He was a great guy and is very missed.

I was being honest so no thanks needed-I really liked your post. What have we got there? The head and hair looks border collie, but it seems too thin in the picture... and I can't even imagine the hassle having a BC would be in NYC. Got an english shepard myself and the dog is smarter than I am. Named after my favorite ballplayer-wasn't yet into Buffy in those days. Funny you should mention defensive about Buffy. I tend to get insufferably smug when someone attacks the show-enough so that my wife has chided me about it. I just smile..
I'm up through Conversations with Dead people on this go around on B7(4th time) and what is really hitting me(besides the overall creepiness you mention) is just how good Marsters is in this season. A lot of the stuff they made him do and say just shouldn't have worked, but he makes it seem natural and totally in character. I never really gave much thought to his acting ability until you mentioned it, but now that you pointed it out it seems obvious. SMG I've always thought was amazing..her performance really did hold the show together, and I've always found an implied fragile, hanging on by a thread desperation in the way she played buffy.

She's a long haired dachsund. Full 100% wiener dog!
And yes, Marsters is pretty amazing.

:)

Just about to watch Dirty Girls, and I'm keeping a close eye for the drastic change of direction that all the "insider" fans cite..Gotta say that Storyteller and Lies my Parents Told Me are as good back to back episodes as any in the series. In fact, adding in The Killer In Me and Get it Done, you have a run of episodes as good or better than any in the 2nd or 3rd seasons...outside of Joss, David Fury might be my favorite interperter of the Buffy-Angel mythos, and the darkness he brings enhances Joss's slightly lighter tone. The two compliment each other perfectly. Just my opinion, of course.:)

I just finished watching the final series again. I once again think that the individual shows shine but that the whole arc was not very good. The series finale disappoints me again. Angel's last year was much better.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4239/tabularasa353qf3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8044/tabularasa354ge6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:)

Nice...whats that from?

tabula rasa (one of my faves) when they open the door and see the vamps...

"I feel like a Joan..."

Ah...I was trying to remember Aly dressed like that...wouldn't have thought I'd forget that.:)
Man, Dave, Tabula Rasa is one of my favorite episodes too. In some ways I like it even more than the episode right before it...I'm beginning to think there is someone else who sees this show the way I do. Comforting thought.

Yup!
Me and my gf feel the same way. We LOVE S6 which is blasphemy to some.

:)

Well, I'm going out on a limb here...but starting with S4 I think the show grew more challenging and some just weren't able to accept that. They thought they had the show all figured out and couldn't handle how it played with its own concepts, turning them upside down in a lot of cases.

EXACTLY! As uneven as S4 might have been, I loved it because it was so different. College, Giles as a batchelor, Anya joining the fray, Willow and her new leanings, Spike chipped which I thought was brilliant. Yep. I love S4 on.
S1-S3 was a great self contained chunk of Buffy where they did some amazing work but the show had to evolve whether fans liked it or not. What were they supposed to do, have everyone be left back and still hanging out in the library?

:)

Yup!
Me and my gf feel the same way. We LOVE S6 which is blasphemy to some.

:)

Season 6 is dark and I believe shows the reality of dealing with evil, it may send you to the dark side as well.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4239/tabularasa353qf3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/8044/tabularasa354ge6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

:)

Spike is Rupert's son, muwhaha, good epsiode.

Randy Giles?!?!? Why not just call me horny Giles or desperate for a shag Giles??!?
I knew there was a reason I hated you.

:)

Well, I'm going out on a limb here...but starting with S4 I think the show grew more challenging and some just weren't able to accept that. Define "challenging"

Side note - as much as I enjoy Tabula Rasa, it leaves me a bit sad. It introduced my favorite storyline that never happened - Ganya (Aniles?). Those two would have been great together.

You even see a hint of it when Giles comes back towards the end of S6. But the show went, as they say, in another direction.

EXACTLY! As uneven as S4 might have been, I loved it because it was so different. College, Giles as a batchelor, Anya joining the fray, Willow and her new leanings, Spike chipped which I thought was brilliant. Yep. I love S4 on.
S1-S3 was a great self contained chunk of Buffy where they did some amazing work but the show had to evolve whether fans liked it or not. What were they supposed to do, have everyone be left back and still hanging out in the library?

:)

Well, Dave, we seem to have some sort of mind meld going on here. Agree with every word.

Define "challenging"

.

In this context, altering the comfortable view the fans had of the series. I don't think any of the themes from S4 on were new-they were all there from even the first season. But a lot of folks didn't get it, so from S4 on they started spelling it out. And some were uncomfortable with having their view of the show as just another slice of teenage-high school life shaken. Look at that essay you posted long ago, where the writer insisted the central metaphor of the show was "high school is hell." Well, yeah, thats part of it, even Joss has said so...but there is so much more. If you view the show as Happy Days with vampires, of course you're going to be disappointed in the direction it took. BUT...if you see the show as about the human condition, and not just one phase in it, then where the show went makes perfect sense. I'm not saying the later seasons are the best-2 +3 are about as perfect as storytelling gets. But the final 4 seasons enhances the power of 2+3 as well as making the whole thing an unified creation that, if anything, is greater than the sum of its parts. Its been said many times, but its true-Buffy is like a very long novel(or epic poem, which may be more accurate). If one looks at the direction it took as exactly where Joss wanted it to go the experience can be rewarding. If however, one finds the later seasons difficult to get into and then start trying to seperate it into different segments ("this is Joss', this is Marti, etc.), then one's going to miss the whole point. Thats the challenge.

. And some were uncomfortable with having their view of the show as just another slice of teenage-high school life shaken. Alright, enough with the niceties. I've tried to be patient, but enough is enough.

You are wrong. You are rude. You are condescending and disingenuous. I don't know why you simply cannot accept the fact that other people don't like the same shows you love. Why must insult, belittle and find flaws in people who don't agree with you?

It has been explained to you many times why many people don't like the later seasons of BtVS, but you simply won't accept what you are hearing. It has nothing to do with the latter seasons being dark. It has nothing to do with them being different. It has nothing to do with them being channeling. And it absolutely, positively is not because people wanted the show to be just another slice of teenage life.

You've offered insulting reason after insulting reasons to explain why people don't agree with you, but this one is the most absurd. You even had to most the good/bad demarcation line back to S3/S4 in order to make it. Ridiculous.

I suggest you give up trying to find flaws in those people who disagree with you. Stop putting words in their mouths and thoughts in their heads. Simply accept the fact that reasonable people disagree. If you must find reasons why they disagree, listen to what they actually say rather than make something up for them.

Alright, enough with the niceties. I've tried to be patient, but enough is enough.

You are wrong. You are rude. You are condescending and disingenuous. I don't know why you simply cannot accept the fact that other people don't like the same shows you love. Why must insult, belittle and find flaws in people who don't agree with you?

It has been explained to you many times why many people don't like the later seasons of BtVS, but you simply won't accept what you are hearing. It has nothing to do with the latter seasons being dark. It has nothing to do with them being different. It has nothing to do with them being channeling. And it absolutely, positively is not because people wanted the show to be just another slice of teenage life.

You've offered insulting reason after insulting reasons to explain why people don't agree with you, but this one is the most absurd. You even had to most the good/bad demarcation line back to S3/S4 in order to make it. Ridiculous.

I suggest you give up trying to find flaws in those people who disagree with you. Stop putting words in their mouths and thoughts in their heads. Simply accept the fact that reasonable people disagree. If you must find reasons why they disagree, listen to what they actually say rather than make something up for them.


Dude, take a chill pill. :) Read over that quote again and you will notice a keyword in there, namely, the word "SOME" which was used instead of the words "all" or "most". :D I think you're misinterpreting Lonwolf's intent.

Dude, take a chill pill. :) Read over that quote again and you will notice a keyword in there, namely, the word SOME which was used instead of the words "all" or "most". :D I think you're misinterpreting Lonwolf's intent.


You are quite right MT.





NNG,

Unlike me, Lonwolf doesn't bitch-slap posters he may disagree with... ;)

Well, I'll go on record as stating that if we have a choice, me and the gf usually will watch a random epsiode from S4-S6 rather than S1-S3. We love the early seasons too but for some reason we just identify more with the post high-school phase of Buffy.
And I personally really dig S6. I went through a very dark nite of the soul a few years back and watching the Scoobies deal with some really heavy stuff actually helped me...

Just my 2 cents....

You are quite right MT.





NNG,

Unlike me, Lonwolf doesn't bitch-slap posters he may disagree with... ;)

I don't know about that oink, but in this case I'm going to try to take the high road. Or maybe not-I'll have to wait to NNG explains my intent to me.:)
I've reread my post and I do see two areas where I regret a little what I said-one is NNG"s quote. But most of the post is my own feelings about the later seasons. I had stated I thought starting in S4 the show was more challenging, and NNG asked me to define the term. And instead I tried to explain why I found the later seasons added to my appreaciation of what came before. I don't see where I insist my view is the only possible one and I really don't get how its so important to me "that everybody like what I love". (and yeah, NNG, I'm paraphrasing you there ). I said why I liked the later seasons, in response to a question. Its MY feelings, MY way of looking at it, and thats all it is. Its just ME, stating MY feelings, and MY belief that the series has to be taken as a whole...And yeah, I admit there are a few things in there to try to provoke a response that could have been left out, but my motive was to try to stimulate a discussion. I was naive enough to think that we could discuss different views of Buffy without resorting to personal attacks. Obviously, I was wrong. Shrug.
NewNameGuy, I've said several times I respect you and your opinion. Got quite mushy about it once, in fact. Still feel the same, at least about your opinions. But you don't know me. (and clearly don't care to, I can live with that.) I wasn't trying to offend or insult you or anyone else. If I did I'm sorry. Truthfully. You're right, I do love this show, and it seems I can't learn enough about it. Thats where I'm coming from here. Peace.

And now for something completely different...anybody else as excited about the comic as I am? The eighth season of Buffy,,. the very idea of it has got me drooling..and yes, I am a geek..

Lonwolf,

I've really enjoyed reading your posts when you stick to expressing your opinions on the show. But you have repeatedly made up reasons and motivations for people who don't agree with you. It seems like you don't even realize you are doing it or how insulting your explanations have been.

Enjoy the comic,
NNG

The mention of the comic was an attempt to move on.

The mention of the comic was an attempt to move on. As was my hope that you enjoy it.

Comic?!?!?!?

:0

Yep. Joss is writing it, in fact apparently has finished the first issue and is working on the 2nd. He's stated several times that it will basically be the 8th season of Buffy, using ideas he originally planned for a trilogy of movies, one each focusing on Faith, Willow, and Spike. The bad news is that he has apparently given up hope of ever making the films. The not quite so bad news is that the first issue has been pushed back till next march. Joss has also said he's planning to bring in others from the series to do some issues, and is planning a 20 issue run, which I guess would be roughly equal to a 22 ep. season?
Thats about all I know. Oh wait, the guy doing the artwork for the first issue has said there will be twists and surprises a plenty, and noone is going to be able to guess where Joss is taking the saga. There, thats everything. If you already knew any or all of this I hope you're not insulted by my summary. Its MY summary, based on MY reading...oh, wait, I already did that, sorry. :)

Thanks lonwolf! I actually hadn't heard about that at all!
All I can say is it makes me go...

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/737/angelanddavecf3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Just read Nathan Fillion has signed on to Lost...I guess that makes up for what happens to Charisma on VM...
Its funny-before my wife succumbed to the Buffy spell, she asked "if the actors are so good why haven't they done anything else? Now they're everywheres...
And speaking of everywheres, I'll fess up-I will be getting the Nov. Playboy. For purely intellectual curiosity reasons, of course.

There were some extraordinary actors on both buffy and angel and now they're all over the place. Except for poor Nick Brendon. We tried to watch his show last year, (The restaurant) and just didn't dig it.

:)

Just read Nathan Fillion has signed on to Lost.

That's great news. I hope he has a big part. The Lost season 3 premiere was great.

Speaking of Lost. My best friend came over and finished season 1 last night. I didn't have season 2, but he was addicted enough to agree to pay of half of season 2 to go down the street to Wal-Mart and buy season 2 immediately o we could continue :D When I handed the guy Lost season 2 at the checkout counter he said "You're not the only one addicted to this movie.". :)

I can't find where I read it now, but it sounded like a fairly major role...I haven't watched Lost up to this point, but I think thats my next project. I think I know the answer already, but while I try to catch up would you reccomend following the current season at the same time? Or if I start watching now would I be, um, lost?

I can't find where I read it now, but it sounded like a fairly major role...I haven't watched Lost up to this point, but I think thats my next project. I think I know the answer already, but while I try to catch up would you reccomend following the current season at the same time? Or if I start watching now would I be, um, lost?


You should not watch a single minute of Lost if it's not starting with the two episode Pilot (which is one of the best pilots ever). You absolutely will be lost. :)Hell, those of us who followed from the beginning are a little Lost. So, they have the right name. :D

You think you know the "answer"? You know the answers to a million questions? :D It's called "Lost" for a reason, not just because the characters are lost. :)

The show isn't what you expect at all. There is lots and lots of great character development from a large cast; Backstories, etc.. That's really my favorite aspect about the series. There is lots of mysteries and questions too. Usually the answers they end up giving add some more questions. Very interesting show. The characters are my favorite part though and they spend plenty of time developing these characters.

So, check it out, but only from the very beginning. I know of two people who saw a random episodes of Lost and didn't get the fascination with it. One of those two I had watch Lost from the pilot and hook, line and sinker. You know the story. :)

I'd say one should watch any seriazlied (partially or otherwise) series from the beginning in order to fully appreciate it, but with Lost it is a requirement.

If they keep up the amount of commercials as they did from the first episode last week, I may just wait for the DVD. It was almost too much to endure FF'ing past them recorded on my DVR. :)

larry

We started LOST 3 weeks ago and tore through Season one and now almost finished season two on DVD. We will be in real time starting this week, (DVR'd last week's ep....) I agree, start from the beginning.


:)

If they keep up the amount of commercials as they did from the first episode last week, I may just wait for the DVD. It was almost too much to endure FF'ing past them recorded on my DVR. :)

larry


This is why I TorrentSpy/BitLord EVERYTHING that I watch now. They're usually up within 12 hours. No commericals and higher quality than regular cable (most are made from HD feeds). Tivo is a good choice too, but I'm too cheap for Tivo. :D

Watched the first 4 ep. of Lost last night. My wife was hesitant, and during the 2nd one said she didn't like it-the idea of a "monster" didn't appeal to her. As I've said before any hint of fantasy or supernatural events sets a red flag off in her. She'll still watch, but has a tendency to think of it as silly. But by the third or fourth ep. she was hooked. As for me...
they had me with the polar bear
I was very impressed with the sound-the lfe channel especially. Better 5.1 use than a lot of movies, and it really added to the overall mood. Throw in David Fury having a role in it.(Walkabout was my favorite of the first 4, though they were all good) and the question becomes how quickly can I catch up...

Watched the first 4 ep. of Lost last night. My wife was hesitant, and during the 2nd one said she didn't like it-the idea of a "monster" didn't appeal to her. As I've said before any hint of fantasy or supernatural events sets a red flag off in her. She'll still watch, but has a tendency to think of it as silly. But by the third or fourth ep. she was hooked. As for me...
they had me with the polar bear
I was very impressed with the sound-the lfe channel especially. Better 5.1 use than a lot of movies, and it really added to the overall mood. Throw in David Fury having a role in it.(Walkabout was my favorite of the first 4, though they were all good) and the question becomes how quickly can I catch up...

Well it's a good thing the "monster" didn't put her off completely, because she would've been making a big mistake since the viewers nor the characters actually know what it is and that is part of the fun.

Walkabout was great. John Locke is one of the best characters on the show. He was from Alias and I liked him on that, but he really gets to shine on Lost.

Lost is one of my top 5 favorite shows on TV. In no particular order:

Veronica Mars
Lost
Battlestar Galactica
The Shield
24

Other favorites: My Name is Earl, Family Guy, Supernatural, Smallville (became more of a guilty pleasure. This season only has two episodes, but it's off to a very good start), South Park & Heroes.

Heroes is a fun new show. It's kind of trying to be the next Lost. It has some flaws, but it's just getting started and it's pretty fun so far. I have more great stuff to watch this season than I can remember ever having.

Tried Lost's first 2 or 3 shows and lost interest.

Agree with you on Supernatural...edgier and without the humor of Buffy/Angel.
In addition to that, I watch on a regular basic The Simpsons, The Daily Show, Colbert Report, and Countdown with Keith Olbermann.

I find that serialized tv is much easier to follow on DVD rather than having to wait a week per episode. Lost can probably seem a bit too slow having to wait a week or more between episodes, but it's great for DVD marathons and I find that it hold one's interest a lot more than a 7 day wait between episodes. Pretty much every show in my top 5 is crushing 99% of feature films being released, IMO.

Regarding Supernatural, I don't know exactly what makes it "edgier", but it's definitely less humorous than Buffy or Angel, besides the occasional Dean Wisecrack. I'd say Buffy and Angel are both edgier than Supernatural. Supernatural is serious more often, but that's about it.

I could name a large list of reasons why I think Buffy and Angel are edgier, but I won't go into that now. I guess it's subjective though. Supernatural is darker than Buffy most of the time and it is a very good horror monster of the week series though. It needs more depth though, which is why it hasn't cracked my top 5. The characters, even though they're quite good, pale in comparison to the cast of Veronica Mars & Lost. I think one thing really holding this show back is not having a great ensemble cast like most or all of my top 5 series right now. Two pretty good characters on a show this serious just doesn't quite cut it, especially since the stand alones are better than the long arcs, IMO. Again, very good horror show though. It does horror better than most horror films.

I still watch The Simpsons too, but it's not that great. Good for passing time though and an occassional laugh. Family Guy is much funnier and edgier.

The rest of the shows on your list I don't watch. Personally, as someone involved in filmmaking, I prefer watching a good/great cast of characters on a good/great scripted series telling stories. I actually don't even watch tv anymore. I haven't turned on my tv or cable in months. I now download all the series I follow with Bit Torrent.

Too bad you stopped before episode 4. Great episode with a nice twist. That episode alone would've sold me if I hadn't been hooked by the pilot. :D

Plus ep.4 is Fury, maybe the #2 writer from the Whedonverse...okay, I don't want to go there, there were many great writers on B+A, but DF is one of my favorites. He can take someone else's concept and twist it into his own creation while remaining true to the original idea. Walkabout is the perfect example of what I mean. It offers the first glint of what might be going on plus having its share of wtf moments...plus the possibility that its leading you the wrong way...its not his show, after all.
I have to admit to being confused by what is meant by some of the terms we're using here..."darker", "edgier"...it reminds me of the audio forums when someone calls one speaker "warmer" than another-what exactly does that mean? As far as Buffy and Angel go, I don't know if one can seperate the dark from the light. Some of the funniest moments have an underlying darkness, a laughing in the graveyard kind of mojo...

Doh! :eek:
Sorry, the word "edgier" isn't what I was trying to imply...
Your words, "darker, serious," are more descriptive of what I meant. :o

And yes, B/A is "edgier." ;)

Plus ep.4 is Fury...

Holy crap! :eek: I don't know how, but I had no idea David Fury wrote Walkabout. I hadn't checked to see if they used any Buffy/Angel writers. No wonder it was so good. :D I checked IMDB and he wrote like 4 for the first seasons. A couple of pretty important episodes too that added mysteries. Wow. Very cool.

And Drew Goddard cowrote the most recent(10/11/06) episode.

the guy doing the art for the Buffy comics (Georges Jeanty) isn't particularly talented,here's a page that has a quick sketch of SMG.http://chippedham.blogspot.com/2006/07/heroes-convention-2006-report.html
also,since IDW has the rights to Angel and it's supporting characters,that means no Spike,either.

Well, I won't be buying it for the artwork...

My gf noticed the same thing. I have "The Death of Buffy" which is a decent graphic novel depicting the post S5-pre S6 time and my gf basically said, "You know these drawings don't really look like the actors..." I wonder if there are any rights issues..?

After one week we've watched 16 episodes of Lost..DG wrote the most recent one we watched, its probably a bias on my part but the show seems to go up a notch when a former BA writer is involved. Beginning to get hooked here, the characters are haunting me and it really doesn't bother me not having a clue whats going on, which is surprising.

After one week we've watched 16 episodes of Lost..DG wrote the most recent one we watched, its probably a bias on my part but the show seems to go up a notch when a former BA writer is involved. Beginning to get hooked here, the characters are haunting, and I'm beginning to get an inkling to what's going on. I don't mean the plot, I have no idea where thats going.:) I mean what the show is about, which to me is the characters. As fantastic as the storyline is, its not what happens thats the main focus. Its how what happens affects the people involved..Redemption seems a major theme, as well as coming to grips with who you are and accepting yourself, warts and all...


If you're talking about the episode "Numbers" it's not bias, because I also thought it went up a notch and didn't know who wrote it until after you mentioned a Buffy writer writing Walkabout.

If you're talking about the episode "Numbers" it's not bias, because I also thought it went up a notch and didn't know who wrote it until after you mentioned a Buffy writer writing Walkabout.

Actually I was refering to "Outlaws", Drew Goddard's first writing credit. But we watched Numbers last night and...wow. So far, I've been watching this without getting too caught up in the mystery. Not that I'm not curious about whats going on, just that trying to figure it out seems kind of futile. And the characters are so rich and complex, with such compelling storylines, that I didn't need to know what really was going on. I mean every episode so far plays like a really good short story, so that the overall story arc was just icing on the cake. But if the other episodes were a slow descent down the rabbit hole, Numbers to me was a headfirst plunge off a cliff. Its not just the story, but the way they tell it, that has got me rethinking everything I've seen so far. Damn it, I think I'm hooked...

ah, the joys of renting...
Been watching discs from hollywood, which have been in usual rental shape..like somebody has been using them to spread jam. Cleaned them up and they played fine..but disc 6 of Lost looked like it had been used to play frisbee with a dog. Despite all the scratches watched it last night and it played fine until the final episode...the baby had been kidnapped, Locke, etc. were about to reach the hatch with the dynamite, the raft had lost its rudder, and...the disc froze! So after 221/2 episodes I'm left in limbo...sigh. And whats funny is everytime I rent at Hollywood they try to sell some kind of insurance to cover the cost if I should damage a disc...like they would know. I think I could bust a disc in 1/2 and they would put it back on the shelf to rent. I asked them if they ever look at the discs when they're returned and they just laughed...sigh. So I'm going to raising a little heck tonight there, just had to rant a little first so I don't completely lose it when I complain.
And hey, I'm sure nothing important happens at the end of the season, right?:)

If you complain enough, maybe they will give you a free rental. ;)

ah, the joys of renting...
Been watching discs from hollywood, which have been in usual rental shape..like somebody has been using them to spread jam. Cleaned them up and they played fine..but disc 6 of Lost looked like it had been used to play frisbee with a dog. Despite all the scratches watched it last night and it played fine until the final episode...the baby had been kidnapped, Locke, etc. were about to reach the hatch with the dynamite, the raft had lost its rudder, and...the disc froze! So after 221/2 episodes I'm left in limbo...sigh. And whats funny is everytime I rent at Hollywood they try to sell some kind of insurance to cover the cost if I should damage a disc...like they would know. I think I could bust a disc in 1/2 and they would put it back on the shelf to rent. I asked them if they ever look at the discs when they're returned and they just laughed...sigh. So I'm going to raising a little heck tonight there, just had to rant a little first so I don't completely lose it when I complain.
And hey, I'm sure nothing important happens at the end of the season, right?:)

Ouch man! You missed some crazy stuff at the end. This is why I use Netflix. They have a replacement ready to send if you mark yours as defective. Do they not have another disc? You gotta get that disc man. :D

a look at the artwork to expect from the season 8 comics,it looks like amatuerish fan art.
http://www.whedon.info/article.php3?id_article=18757

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/7503/buffyseason8comicsheadssw0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

wow, not to be all critical but that is pretty lame. SMG looks like she has a nose ring! And what's with the "Village of the Damned" looking eyes? And that's Dawn?!?!? I thought it was Cordelia! I'm sure I'll get it as Joss wrote it but this is the best they could do?!?!?! oof

I thought I saw some shots from the 1st issue that weren't as bad, but I can't find them now...have to admit those are terrible, kinda makes me wonder whats going on, esp. when Joss supposedly "handpicked" the artist...

Ouch man! You missed some crazy stuff at the end. This is why I use Netflix. They have a replacement ready to send if you mark yours as defective. Do they not have another disc? You gotta get that disc man. :D

I got it. We'll finish S2 tonight...soon I'll be frustrated as everybody else, waiting week by week for a clue whats going on.:)
Mal makes his appearance on Nov.8th and I wanted to see that one in real time. But then the show takes a 12 week hiatus and I still have to get my hands on the 3rd season premere so maybe I'll try to take it slow.
One thing I've realized though as we near the end of S2-this show could go on forever. They've taken so much time to establish the characters, giving them such compelling backstories and inner conflicts, that the mystery of the island almost takes a backseat to their ongoing development. How they resolve their inner turmoil and come to terms with each other is the really addictive part of this story for me. The island is almost what Hitchcock called the McGuffin-vastly important to the characters involved but not that significant to the audience. Almost, but not quite...one can't help wondering what the heck is going on...but the real appeal is how the characters are all deeply flawed and yet somehow noble. And how my evaluation of them keeps changing with each new revelation, so that one is never sure who the good or bad guys are.
I thought I was already hooked, but Two For The Road took it to a new level for me. I had an emotional response to that episode that came out of left field, and had almost nothing to do with what I was consciously thinking. And thats my favorite type of art-when it bypasses the mind and speaks directly to the gut. And even after watching I can't explain or defend my response, and my wife was shocked when I told her....
My gut reaction then?
I want to see Michael dead. He deserves to die, no matter how noble his motives were.
And yes, I'm surprised I feel that way. At the start he was one I felt the most sympathy for, and I don't usually wish that on anybody. But I can't deny I would be grimly satisfied if it happens. And the fact that I feel that way shows just how good Lost is...

Lonwolf,


Where have you been hiding??

Are stuck in TV-land?? :D

oink: I've been around, its just that my viewing has been kind of "Lost" for the last couple of weeks. Have I ever thanked you, btw? If not, let me say it now-thanks. (you too, M...and I'm waiting for your richly deserved "I told you so...":)

Lonwolf, I got my 1/4 scale slayer statue!

http://www.sideshowcollectors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10693&page=34

Whoa,,,knew nothing about that. or that site. To be honest, I was mildly curious and a little amused at first...and then I saw that picture...nice. 1/4 scale huh? So its what, 15-16 inches tall? Hmm...

21" on her base It's awesome! Like having a mini-slayer in the house! The better 1/2 wasn't TOO bad. It came today, the one day she's home during the day. So I was busted...
We have our own little slayer/watcher on the way now so she has yelled at me about spending $$.

:)