The AQ is impressive, a few dB down, but easily corrected by turning the MV up on your receiver or pre/pro. The may be the most impressive HD DVD released thus far in terms of AQ. Plenty of deep bass, clear and balanced dialog, realistic panning side to side and front to rear. The surround effects vary from being directional when necessary, to atmospheric. There are some battle scenes where the bullets whizzing by are remeniscent of Saving Private Ryan, albiet maybe slighty less intense but still emmersive.

The PQ isn't as sharp as Chronicles of Riddick, not many are, but it's clear, detailed, and not artifacts. Some scenes start off a little soft, but you can tell see detect the cameraman adjusting the focus and it gets sharper. It looks like high quality film with very fine grain.

I don't have any complaints and it makes a nice addition to my HD DVD collection, I think I'm over 40 disks now, but due to the drap colors, dark scenes, vintage footage, and slightly soft picture, I doubt I'll be unseating the top HD DVD's in terms of eye candy.

The AQ is impressive, a few dB down, but easily corrected by turning the MV up on your receiver or pre/pro. Plenty of deep bass, clear and balanced dialog, realistic panning side to side and front to rear. The surround effects vary from being directional when necessary, to atmospheric. There are some battle scenes where the bullets whizzing by are remeniscent of Saving Private Ryan, albiet maybe slighty less intense but still emmersive.

The PQ isn't as sharp as Chronicles of Riddick, not many are, but it's clear, detailed, and not artifacts. Some scenes start off a little soft, but you can tell see detect the cameraman adjusting the focus and it gets sharper. It looks like high quality film with very fine grain.

I don't have any complaints and it makes a nice addition to my HD DVD collection, I think I'm over 40 disks now, but due to the drap colors, dark scenes, vintage footage, and slightly soft picture, I doubt I'll be unseating the top HD DVD's in terms of eye candy.

Monty.. if you are basing the level of the mix based on the dialog, know that we mixed the movie this way, ie the dialog was lower than we would normally mix... partially for dynamics, mainly for dramatic impact.

Also of note, this was the first motion picture that was completly done with a Digital Intermediate.. O Brother used the DI process for a majority of the film, but WWS was the first head to tail Film>DI>Film motion picture... I saw origianl negative prints, and they were a little fuzy back then... the scanning tech has improved immensly over the years..

I wasn't complaining, I love what you did with it and as an ex-military officer I really love the movie. Thanks for the interesting commentary, I'm always amazed at who some of the other forum members are.

The thing this movie really captures is the peace and calmness soldiers feel before they go into combat. I think the soundtrack goes a long ways towards capturing and enchancing that feeling.

I wasn't complaining, I love what you did with it and as an ex-military officer I really love the movie. Thanks for the interesting commentary, I'm always amazed at who some of the other forum members are.

I never took it as a complaint :) And the movie also holds a special place in my heart too....

Also of note, this was the first motion picture that was completly done with a Digital Intermediate.. O Brother used the DI process for a majority of the film, but WWS was the first head to tail Film>DI>Film motion picture... I saw origianl negative prints, and they were a little fuzy back then... the scanning tech has improved immensly over the years..

FilmMixer,

I second Monty's comment: very cool that you're a member and responding. :)

If you don't mind, could you explain to me what a Digital Intermediate is? I noticed on my copy of Black Hawk Down, on the back of the dvd case, it says, "Mastered in Hi Def" - does this mean they used a DI? Would love to learn more about this stuff. Thanks!

The AQ is impressive, a few dB down, but easily corrected by turning the MV up on your receiver or pre/pro. The may be the most impressive HD DVD released thus far in terms of AQ. Plenty of deep bass, clear and balanced dialog, realistic panning side to side and front to rear. The surround effects vary from being directional when necessary, to atmospheric. There are some battle scenes where the bullets whizzing by are remeniscent of Saving Private Ryan, albiet maybe slighty less intense but still emmersive.

The PQ isn't as sharp as Chronicles of Riddick, not many are, but it's clear, detailed, and not artifacts. Some scenes start off a little soft, but you can tell see detect the cameraman adjusting the focus and it gets sharper. It looks like high quality film with very fine grain.

I don't have any complaints and it makes a nice addition to my HD DVD collection, I think I'm over 40 disks now, but due to the drap colors, dark scenes, vintage footage, and slightly soft picture, I doubt I'll be unseating the top HD DVD's in terms of eye candy.

I am glad to hear that its good. Most might not consider it up there with other War movies but for me it sits behind Glory and SPR as my personal favorites, maybe it had something to do with Mel Gibson being one of my favorite actors. But yeah I love this movie and while I am purchasing half of Paramounts first wave this one was the one that i went OMG I can't believe its coming to HD-DVD this soon. For me it Will be whether it has the greatest PQ the prize of my pack so far. Now if only Universal could sneak Jurassic Park past Mr. Spielberg.

FilmMixer,

I second Monty's comment: very cool that you're a member and responding. :)

If you don't mind, could you explain to me what a Digital Intermediate is? I noticed on my copy of Black Hawk Down, on the back of the dvd case, it says, "Mastered in Hi Def" - does this mean they used a DI? Would love to learn more about this stuff. Thanks!

Traditionally, they use a film negative and run it though a series of timing lights to make an interpositive negative with the color timing changes 'shot' into this new negative. Then the interpositive (IP) is used to make internegatives (IN's) which are then used to make release pringt.. as you can see you are 4 steps away from the original negative by the time it gets to the theater.

On a related note, the IP is what is used to master the video, and it is one step away from the original negative in a traditional film finish.

The DI process scans the orginal negative and converts it into a digitial file that can then be timed (make color corrections) with much finer scope and choices... one specific example of something in WWS that wouldn't have been possible otherwise is the scene where the soldiers are laying in the grass and then pop up to surprise the enemy... they used the DI process to time down everything else and pop out the whites of the eyes..... Impossible to do with traditional methods... The other benefit of the DI process is that the computer files are then used to make new IN's off of which release prints are struck, so in this cas the theaters get prints which are one generation away from the digital master... the other benefit of the DI is that you can use the digital files to make the video masters without having to telecine (scan the film print to a videotape)...

This process adds some expense to the post process, and I would guess that 60-70% of all major releases now go the DI route.. I may be way off on that number, but that seems close to what the ratio of films I work on is...

Long answer to your question... the short answer is, in regards to BHD, that no, the Mastered in Hi Def just means the DVD was authored and compressed off of an HD video master, and that has been the case for most films for the past 6-7 years....

I really need to do some more comparing of this title with a version from Showtime HD on DishNetwork that is about 13GB total. From the little bit I looked at, they looked pretty similar on my 10' wide screen with 1080p projector, although it looked like the HD DVD version might have had noise reduction applied in spots.

--Darin

I really need to do some more comparing of this title with a version from Showtime HD on DishNetwork that is about 13GB total. From the little bit I looked at, they looked pretty similar on my 10' wide screen with 1080p projector, although it looked like the HD DVD version might have had noise reduction applied in spots.
--Darin

Oh. Good thing I still have my Showtime tape...

FilmMixer, what were the "marching orders" if you will given to you for mixing this film; specifically, were there any requirements/constraints placed on you that were peculiar to HD DVD and/or VC-1? Do you do the digitalization/compression as well or is that some other entity/person. Are you happy with the compressed version vs. what you mixed?

FilmMixer, what were the "marching orders" if you will given to you for mixing this film; specifically, were there any requirements/constraints placed on you that were peculiar to HD DVD and/or VC-1? Do you do the digitalization/compression as well or is that some other entity/person. Are you happy with the compressed version vs. what you mixed?

Paramount is not in the habit of remastering audio for home video on their newer releases... I know for a fact that the original SD DVD came directly from the 6.1 channel theatrical printmaster hard drive.. I assume that this transfer came from the same element.. I can let you know when I get my disc in a couple of days...

It is rare that I do a home video mix on the films I do... occasionally, but that is the exception. I usually will ok and review the remasters done at Mi Casa for the Lions Gate or New Line films that I do, but they are doing less work on the newer releases.. (ie the DVD of "Crash," not the directors cut, came straight from the theatrical printmaster..)

Traditionally, they use a film negative and run it though a series of timing lights to make an interpositive negative...

Thanks for the detailed explanation. :)

FilmMixer, is it true that WWS had some kind of experimental height channel mixed into the DD master? If so can you tell us about it?

FilmMixer, is it true that WWS had some kind of experimental height channel mixed into the DD master? If so can you tell us about it?


There was a special printmaster made for this... this one off printmaster was only used to make the Dolby MO for the one theater run.. it has never appeared anywhere else, despite some discussion to the contrary.

I was discussing this in another thread.. here's what I wrote there:

I was only speaking of a one off theatrical presentaion we did, in Sept of 2002... But FYI, Dolby made a modified matrix encoder/decoder which used the last remainging channel in the surround matrix for the overhead... The surround EX decoder is like a PLII decoder... it decodes a SL, SB. SR from matrixed surround SLt and SRt.... To get the overhead, we used what would be the fourth channel in a PLII matrix (think LCRS) that wasn't being used.... however, the EX matrix decoders are amazing, as anything that is discrete SL and SR still stay L and R and don't bunch up in the center as it would do in a regular 4-2-4 decode... These Dolby guys are sharp!!!!

Here's a link to the Dolby Press release about it:

Dolby Sonic Whole Overhead Presentation of We Were Soldiers (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/press_releases/673_mp_pr_0209_Soundelux.pdf)

There was a special printmaster made for this... this one off printmaster was only used to make the Dolby MO for the one theater run.. it has never appeared anywhere else, despite some discussion to the contrary.

I was discussing this in another thread.. here's what I wrote there:



Here's a link to the Dolby Press release about it:

Dolby Sonic Whole Overhead Presentation of We Were Soldiers (http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/press_releases/673_mp_pr_0209_Soundelux.pdf)

Thanks for the information, pretty interesting but it looks as if it never caught on, did you ever get a chance to see (and hear) this presentation?

It also seems that DD EX never has caught on as much as I thought also, since SWEI was released in 1999 there haven't been many movies mixed with EX, looks like maybe 80 or so since then.

Thanks for the information, pretty interesting but it looks as if it never caught on, did you ever get a chance to see (and hear) this presentation?

It also seems that DD EX never has caught on as much as I thought also, since SWEI was released in 1999 there haven't been many movies mixed with EX, looks like maybe 80 or so since then.

I was supposed to mix it, but at the time I was going through an appendicitis :( They can still play it in the Dolby offices in LA, but I haven't heard it yet.... EX hasn't caught on in a big way, and WWS is the only film I have mixed in the format.

Just got done with this film, and wow, what a movie. I do not have the audio setup to apreciate the AQ side of things, but I think the complains of PQ are absolutly absurd. The amount of detail present in absolutly everything onscreen is amazing, and all environments just have so much depth and detail. There are even some scenes in that movie that I would say are some of the most detailed I have ever seen, I greatly apreciate what was done and think highly of this film overall. Also note I don't own the DVD so this was a great purchase for me aswell.

Got this one yesterday and I am seriously comtemplating moving the A1 into my HT, which has the "good" speakers and receiver (the A1 plays on the bedroom HDTV) to fully appreciate the sound of this movie. I have the SD edition in there already and it is an audio experience that had me smiling when I learned WWS was coming to HD DVD.

I watched this HD-DVD last night. I love the movie and have already seen it at least 5 or 6 times all the way through. The extra bits make the this movie (as well as others) shine. No longer do you have murky, MPEG compression impacted, dark scenes void of detail. The audio is some of the most realistic I've heard wrt the various weapons firing. Crank it up! :)

"If any of you sonsabitches calls me grandpa, I'll kill ya".

larry

[QUOTE=I Superman }....but I think the complains of PQ are absolutly absurd. The amount of detail present in absolutly everything onscreen is amazing.....[/QUOTE]

Agreed! It's the visable grain they see that're whining about surely? It looks like the film is shot on some kind of filmstock that shows a bit more grain than average. Plus, folks aren't used to a format that so clearly shows film-grain. That'll change.....

Watched it yesterday and was amazed by AQ. In my bedroom setup, I heard sidewall imaging I usually only hear in my HT, the side areas filled with various small explosions and gunfire, especially during the night scenes. Nice! Very, very nice!

Filmmixer -- this disc just replaced Bourne Supremacy as the best sounding thing I've ever heard on my home theater. :=) I loved how the sound really opened up and came alive during the battle scenes. The in-chopper use of surrounds was just awesome.

Fan mail aside, thank you for your participation here.

Filmmixer -- this disc just replaced Bourne Supremacy as the best sounding thing I've ever heard on my home theater. :=) I loved how the sound really opened up and came alive during the battle scenes. The in-chopper use of surrounds was just awesome.

Fan mail aside, thank you for your participation here.

Thank you so much for the kind words.. I am very proud of this film, and I was very excited to see it relased on HD DVD...... I love this forum, and I learn so much here, and I think it makes me a much better mixer...

You are very welcome.... and I always have a standing invitiation when fellow forum members are in LA to come and visit at my studio... come on people, take me up on the offer :)

Why the hell does amazon still not even have this movie listed as released let alone an option to purchase it?

Please let this thread not turn into another "Film grain is evil!" one!

I thought the small object detail was really amazing. Nice, sharp picture. I saw this movie a long time ago and remembered thinking it was ok, but wow, in HD it was a great movie experience!

Please let this thread not turn into another "Film grain is evil!" one!

On the contrary I noticed the heavy grain (it was hard not to) but it didn't degrade the picture at all, just added a "documentary" feel that I'm sure Wallace was going for.

Just wanted to join the bandwagon on the great presentation of this film in HD DVD. Much improved detail and contrast over the SD DVD with zero artifacting on my 50" SXRD. As mentioned, the DD EX+ is awesome. As a long time fan of this movie and book I couldn't be happier.

Darn.. as an audio engineering enthusiast I wish I lived in L.A.....

what is the best way to listen to the DD-EX+ track? 5.1 passthrough or analog 6 redigitized?

i got to watch it this past week and was pleasantly surprised by the transfer, it was nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be. the whole excessive grain complaints I think might be overblown. I was able to notice the peach fuzz on peoples faces. So its a pretty good looking hd dvd. the quality however seems to be random, some scenes look excellent, while others look softer. It would jump back and forth.

Off topic comments removed.

I just got done watching this. I really enoyed the film and thought the PQ and SQ were top notch. The grain just added to the experience for me. It looked like I was projecting film in my home.

I wonder if most of the complaints of grain in HD-DVDs is coming from non front projector owners . I will tell you this much: The non-removal of grain makes my digital projector (Sanyo Z3) look "less digital".

On a different note: When did Madeleine Stowe start to look like Mrs. Potato head? Jesus, those lips are ATROCIOUS. Seeing her on the heals of just seeing Priscilla Presley (looks like The Joker) on television makes me deeply sad. Why can't our beautiful women just grow older with grace and dignity?

When did Madeleine Stowe start to look like Mrs. Potato head? LOL! Good one. I agree. :)

larry

On a different note: When did Madeleine Stowe start to look like Mrs. Potato head? Jesus, those lips are ATROCIOUS. Seeing her on the heals of just seeing Priscilla Presley (looks like The Joker) on television makes me deeply sad. Why can't our beautiful women just grow older with grace and dignity?

Gah, I couldn't agree more. The lips obscure her otherwise distractingly pretty face. She was much better of without the odd lip enhancement, which is only magnified by HD.

I just bought 3 titles at Walmart this morning, and after reading the a/v comments, I may have to go back there and get WWS. I enjoyed this one.

On the contrary I noticed the heavy grain (it was hard not to) but it didn't degrade the picture at all, just added a "documentary" feel that I'm sure Wallace was going for.


First let me start by saying I watched this last night, being one of my favorites, and fealt as though I was watching it for the first time...seeing/noticing things I hadn't before.

Second, I did something I don't normally do and that is watch the extras and deleted scenes. Some of the deleted scenes were quite long which suprised me; some I understood why they were deleted, others I fealt that could have been left in and would have added to the presentation (maybe not in their entirety). Anyhow, in the "getting it right" extra, they specifically talk about how the film was shot and that every frame was purposely "dirty" (smoke and dirt flying around) and that they wanted the "documentary feel."

In a word, awesome!

Off topic comments removed.


No offense to the posters involved, but thanks. We shouldn't hold a certain individuals indescretions and controversies against this move and disc, and certainly not against the fine audio work of one of our very own forum members.

I just bought this one at WM the other day: great film, great sound, great transfer. Ironically, there's a scene where he gives a speech, saying: "Black, White, Asian, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, we're all equal now." :D

Had a couple friends over last night to watch this. FilmMixer - kudos! The sound was amazing!

Had a couple friends over last night to watch this. FilmMixer - kudos! The sound was amazing!


I agree, used surround mode effectively. This disk is a definite keeper.

Agreed! It's the visable grain they see that're whining about surely? It looks like the film is shot on some kind of filmstock that shows a bit more grain than average. Plus, folks aren't used to a format that so clearly shows film-grain. That'll change.....

I hope my mindset does change.I watched this tonight and was totally distracted by the grain and low level dialogue, i wish i had seen this thread before hand for heads up on 'FilmMixer's' audio mix.Being here in HK in summer means air-con and sadly noise (low hum), so i was messing constantly with sound. The grain (noise?)obviously is far less visible in 480P, i kept thinking i had brightness to high or some power cables were on the HDMI cable (stupid yes i know !) or something, but no its just 1080/720 is far less forgiving.Once this film gets to Vietnam there are some truly gorgeous moments, from the first foot on the field to the close-up of that little lizard.

I hope my mindset does change.I watched this tonight and was totally distracted by the grain and low level dialogue, i wish i had seen this thread before hand for heads up on 'FilmMixer's' audio mix.Being here in HK in summer means air-con and sadly noise (low hum), so i was messing constantly with sound. The grain (noise?)obviously is far less visible in 480P, i kept thinking i had brightness to high or some power cables were on the HDMI cable (stupid yes i know !) or something, but no its just 1080/720 is far less forgiving.Once this film gets to Vietnam there are some truly gorgeous moments, from the first foot on the field to the close-up of that little lizard.

Don't think of it as low dialog level. Think of it as loud gunfire; aka high dynamic range.

I watched it by turning it up until the dialog level was natural, then watched the movie like that. Once in Vietnam is was quite loud, and I ended up dropping it -2 dB, but it was still somewhat above my normal listening level. It was very engaging like that, and my ears weren't ringing afterwards. :=)

I hope my mindset does change.I watched this tonight and was totally distracted by the grain and low level dialogue.....

Unless they remove it we're gonna see plenty of grain with HD formats. I've become accustomed to it, I suppose, I've collected way over 100 HD films already. Sage reports turning the dialog up 2 db for this film. I keep my centre channel at +2 db unless a movie warrants turning it down, rare. The way films are mixed these days, I find that jacking the centre channel 2 db saves me alot of grief when I'm trying to hear the dialog over the helicopters and other noise makers. These days it seems film mixers, not one in particular.... :) , are just in love with all effects sounds but helicopters in particular. Helicopters have to be the most bodacious surround effects going, inside of outer space, of course.

I watch alot of very old films and sometimes I love the escape to quieter films. To anybody who's putting on WWS for the first time, I'd say, first turn your centre channel up a notch or two for this one if you're into talk talk. :)

Wont turning your center channel up collapse the soundstage to the middle? I think that would be worse.

Wont turning your center channel up collapse the soundstage to the middle? I think that would be worse.

It doesn't bother me. It may mean an effect originating in the centre channel might be too loud sometimes. I sometimes stop a film and go down to +1 or 0. I hear the dialog better in modern, noisey films better with a little boost and this works for me. I went to +4 on Any Given Sunday DVD in a vain attempt. I hate to say anything too bad about it's soundtrack, but it gave me a headache both times I saw it. ;)

I hear ya. I do things that are not by the book so to speak because I like them that way as well. That is what is so nice about HT is tailoring how you want it. I look forward to hearing this soundtrack and seeing this movie.

I just saw We Were Soldiers, and its audio mix assaulted my sub more violently than O.J. Simpson... uh, never mind. Its LFE output wasn't as thunderous as Serenity's, but it was close. There's nothing better than head-popping LFE. :)

Filmmixer, love to have you at the insider thread, your answers and input would be appreciated!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=697036

Another review of We were soldiers here (http://www.hd-world.net/reviewSOLDIERSdvd.html)

Still trying to get my hands on it jsut for the audio :)

Just watched WWS HD-DVD this morning, what's with all the video noise???

This was my 12th HD-DVD screening and on-average the worst, even '12 Monkeys' was consistently better looking.

Almost every shot that held a lighter background was swarming with video noise, didn't look like grain to me...

The pre-war/'back home' sections of the movie are almost unwatchable due to swarming electronic noise.

Good movie, good audio, poor video. What a damn shame.


From dvdtalk.com:

"I'm torn in my feelings about the grain. I don't have any issues with real film grain, and I know that this movie is meant to have a lot of it, but in more scenes than not it comes across with a very noisy, electronic appearance that's unnatural and ugly. As spectacular as the High Definition video formats can be even at these early stages of their development, I believe that the area where we'll see the greatest improvement over time will be in the rendering of film grain. Some discs released now handle it very well, but in this case I don't think the grain is digitized or compressed as well as it should have been, and it mars an otherwise faithful transfer."

Just watched WWS HD-DVD this morning, what's with all the video noise???
It isn't noise, it is intentional grain.

It isn't noise, it is intentional grain.

Yep. Having said that, the HD DVD is superior in every way to the sd version. Those night shots have spectacular shadow delineation which on sd become a jumble of shadows and undelineated dark areas.

It isn't noise, it is intentional grain.

It's poorly-digitized grain made ugly by too much artificial sharpening.

It isn't noise, it is intentional grain.

Agreed. I thought the image matched the film's intent. Looked good on a 92 inch projector.

I was supposed to mix it, but at the time I was going through an appendicitis :( They can still play it in the Dolby offices in LA, but I haven't heard it yet.... EX hasn't caught on in a big way, and WWS is the only film I have mixed in the format.

Dolby SA-10 has fourth channel that is, the common surround channel that is used on the matrix rear of the modified Dolby CP-45. I find a good plenty of well mixed stereo surrounds works well by extracting the phantom mono signal from left and right, on most films long before Dolby EX, EX was nothing more than a product to put more bums on seats, for the sakes of Star Wars episode 1 The Phantom Menace.

The evolution of the Dolby CP-45 transformed into what is now called the Dolby SA-10, with a different makeover in cosmetic appearance.

http://cinematex.ru/dolby/cp45.jpg

http://www.iceco.com/images/SA10front.jpg


http://www.kinoteam.de/kt/image/big/dol_sa10_panel.jpg

Note: the extra channel that on the Dolby SA-10 this is the common matrix rear that would be used with regular Dolby optical encoded A and SR type, soundtracks. I guess no was thinking at the time, to matrix an extra channel for the use and extraction in the cinema around 1999. I wonder if that’s why Dolby missed out the extra matrix channel for all the early Dolby-EX decoders. It would have been simpler to make a product that was for consumer use, or just use a Dolby Pro-Logic decoder, for the stereo surrounds, instead of beating around the bush.

Almost 60 HD DVD's and this one is still hands down my favorite!! Nice review..

Had to bring this thread back to life if only briefly as I just watched/listened to this movie last night for the first time. The SQ/mix blew me away! I believe FilmMixer did this soundtrack and I just have to say VERY NICE JOB!:) I felt like I was right there with these guys. It was one of the most immersive mixes I have heard and the LFE and bass were perfect!;) Amazing HT experience, and fantastic blind buy for the AQ alone, but I also thought the movie was awesome.

I used this film to set up my back surround speaker (6.1 system) and agree it has great sound.

I used this film to set up my back surround speaker (6.1 system) and agree it has great sound.

This would be a good one to do it. I was convinced at 2 points in the film that the helicopter was right over my head! The sound of the chopper was hovering right over me and there were no speakers there. Just fantastic stuff.

So my receiver can produce 5.1 dolby digital and DTS. The sound options for "We Were Soldiers" is Dolby Digital Plus 5.1, and DTS 6.1 . Which should I choose? What happens when you feed a 6.1 signal into a 5.1 system?

thanks

Its not a big deal with you feed 6.1 into a 5.1 system as far as I know. You will just be missing the extra channel, but that movie has AMAZING sound in the war parts.

I am shocked at how full all 5.1 channels are.

Here is an existing thread all about the sound design of "...Soldiers"

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704580