The official AVS Guide to HD DVD Authoring. [Text View] - Page 4

Chris Campbell

11-15-06, 07:59 PM

I finally got it to work, thanks to everyone here - especially pteittinen.

For whatever reason the OTA broadcast that I recorded reported at 65Mbps bit rate, so changing this to 20000000 in HDPatch fixed the problem and MF5 then showed the proper size for the file to be saved on disc. The odd thing is that I couldn't preview the video at every step through the MF5 process...I wonder why. And I know it didn't need to reencode since it started at 99% when I hit burn - it only had to do the video/audio demuxing.

My file was also amazingly small - only about 3.6GB for 42mins (and change) of 720p with AC3 DD5.1 audio. This was the last episode of LOST.

Thanks again.

David Scott

11-15-06, 09:48 PM

You could mask it an editing program like Premiere or, maybe, Ulead Studio. It'll take longer.
I'm trying out Avidemux to edit out the logo. I'll have to see if there's any quality loss.

d-v-c

11-16-06, 02:38 AM

OK, I couldn't wait. MF5 5.3.0.0 indeed does support 720p without conversion. Please note that HDPatch is still needed for other functions -- 1088 support, bitrate conversion. I'm making a guide change.

1) There are two types of 720p -- 29.97fps and 59.94fps. All have the same data rate, but have different GOP lengths: HDV is 29.97fps with a GOP of 6 frames. ProHD is 59.94fps with a GOP of 12. ATSC 720p is also 59.94fps, but has a GOP of 15. It seems everyone is talking only about ATSC.

2) So when you say the MF5P 5.3 supports 720p -- the statement may be misleading to many.

3) The HDPATCH tool doesn't reflect these differences. For example it lists "29.97 (1080i)" when if fact both 720p and 1080i that have 29.97fps.

4) It's not clear why HDPATCH still reports the wrong data rate. If it doesn't report correctly, why have it?

5) It's not clear why Nero is part of the Guide when MF5P does the burning.

6) 5.1 works fine "through" MF5P if the AC3 and M2V files have been muxed to PS in MPEGstreamclip prior to import into MF5P.

7) The Ulead BD 2.5 burner is available. It imports PS 1080i. Don't know if supports 720p of any type.

Bottom line, besides ATSC HD there are three types of HDV -- and it would be nice if the Guide writers kept this in mind.

Joseph Clark

11-16-06, 03:05 AM

1) There are two types of 720p -- 29.97fps and 59.94fps. All have the same data rate, but have different GOP lengths: HDV is 29.97fps with a GOP of 6 frames. ProHD is 59.94fps with a GOP of 12. ATSC 720p is also 59.94fps, but has a GOP of 15. It seems everyone is talking only about ATSC.

2) So when you say the MF5P 5.3 supports 720p -- the statement may be misleading to many.

3) The HDPATCH tool doesn't reflect these differences. For example it lists "29.97 (1080i)" when if fact both 720p and 1080i that have 29.97fps.

4) It's not clear why HDPATCH still reports the wrong data rate. If it doesn't report correctly, why have it?

5) It's not clear why Nero is part of the Guide when MF5P does the burning.

6) 5.1 works fine "through" MF5P if the AC3 and M2V files have been muxed to PS in MPEGstreamclip prior to import into MF5P.

7) The Ulead BD 2.5 burner is available. It imports PS 1080i. Don't know if supports 720p of any type.

Bottom line, besides ATSC HD there are three types of HDV -- and it would be nice if the Guide writers kept this in mind.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying about 720p support. Are you saying that HDV at 29.97 is not supported? I have a Sony 1080i camcorder, so no access to 720p 29.97fps footage. Also, last time I checked MF5 still doesn't support burning the HD DVD to disc, so Nero (or some app) is still necessary. For most versions of MF5, 5.1 audio is maintained if the video clip doesn't re-encode, with Womble or VideoRedo MPEG conversions. I'll ask texmex to respond about the data rate. His utility has proved useful for a lot of posters here, so that's reason enough to include it.

Bottom line, exactly what are you saying you would like to see changed in the guide?

Joseph Clark

11-16-06, 03:12 AM

I was having a lot of trouble getting an HD DVD of "Hitch." My first capture failed half way through with an error message. The second recording insisted on re-encoding. I used HDPatch to reduce the MPEG's reported 65 Mbps to 20 Mbps and presto, no more problems. Thanks for the tip. i don't know why some files with the same reported data rate cause problems and others don't, but what works, works.

pteittinen

11-16-06, 03:34 AM

For whatever reason the OTA broadcast that I recorded reported at 65Mbps bit rate, so changing this to 20000000 in HDPatch fixed the problem and MF5 then showed the proper size for the file to be saved on disc.
D'oh, didn't think of that possibility. FYI, you can change header's bitrate info in VRD as well.

pteittinen

11-16-06, 03:37 AM

1) It seems everyone is talking only about ATSC.
I guess that's what most of us are trying to convert into HD DVD.

5) It's not clear why Nero is part of the Guide when MF5P does the burning.
That's because initially quite a few users had MF5's burning option greyed out, and another solution had to be found.

d-v-c

11-16-06, 04:23 AM

I'm not quite sure what you are saying about 720p support. Are you saying that HDV at 29.97 is not supported? I have a Sony 1080i camcorder, so no access to 720p 29.97fps footage. Also, last time I checked MF5 still doesn't support burning the HD DVD to disc, so Nero (or some app) is still necessary.

1) It would be nice to split the Capture ATSC from the HD DVD Creation process. Those working with HDV are using Apple, Avid, Adobe NLEs so the whole discussion of all the tools to work with ATSC is confusing. In fact, the whole ATSC stuff really isn't part of "creating an HD DVD."

2) 720p30 was rejected when I tried today. HDPATCH fixed it. I'm only recommending that the Guide recognize there are differences between HDV, ProHD, and ATSC 720p. I'll try to post some feedback on 720 HDV next week.

3) I think you are right about MF5P not burning. I've been writing to hard disk to avoid wasting DVDs. But, what's the point of MF5P creating an "HD DVD" disk if it won't burn it to either a 4.7GB or DL red-laser disk? What are they thinking you'll do if you can't burn it? Only one Toshiba laptop has an HD DVD burner.

4) Another issue -- NLE's can choose between CBR and VBR. What does NF5P check to determine the max. data rate? We should be using VBR because it allows more on a DL disc.

5) Has anybody bought the $750 Sony BD burner? For another $50 it can be put in a USB box.

d-v-c

11-16-06, 04:26 AM

I used HDPatch to reduce the MPEG's reported 65 Mbps to 20 Mbps and presto, no more problems. I don't know why some files with the same reported data rate cause problems and others don't, but what works, works.

Why are these bizarre data rates being reported? Where do these numbers come from in the file?

WiFi-Spy

11-16-06, 07:13 AM

Why are these bizarre data rates being reported? Where do these numbers come from in the file?

Mpeg header info (my local comcast sets it to 38Mb/s) but the real rate is about 14Mb/s (Cinemax)

the_tom

11-16-06, 10:21 AM

...
I have also burned a small HD test pattern that was less than 650MB on a CD and that worked on my Xbox 360 as well.

Test pattern? Was it a static display? I just burned 2 minutes of 720p/DD5.1, that works in the 360 on a DVD5, onto a CD, and... it plays, sort of - the audio is pretty clean, the video has some stretches of 5 to 10 seconds where it plays clean, but is mostly long pauses on one frame with occasional updates to a later one. Seems to me the drive doesn't/can't spin the CD fast enough to sustain the data rate, at least not in near the hub.

I'm having difficulty getting 1080i from the Sony HDR-HC1 (1440x1080i, MPEG Layer 2 audio) to play in the 360; I guess CDs work well enough for throwaway tests to see if [whatever I try next] is going to work, which is handy because I've used up all my memex coaster-grade DVD5s :D

Joseph I see you have a Sony HD cam, are you able to get your footage to play on HD DVD?

Clarence

11-16-06, 12:36 PM

the_tom

11-16-06, 01:56 PM

The XBox seems to get tripped up easily on these homemade HDDVD's.

I have a test pattern disc that plays fine in the HD-A1, but the same disc won't do anything at all in the X360's HDDVD drive.

- the X360 locks up easily when clicking Next Chapter... have to eject the disc to restart

- the X360 won't auto repeat... have to eject the disc to restart

- Previous Chapter doesn't work between clips (neither the HD-A1 nor the X360)

- While I'm compiling a list of issues, I'll include my inability to adjust audio level, even though that feature is in VideoRedo

Has anybody found similar issues?

Better yet, has anyone found any workarounds in MF5?

A list seems like a good idea; FWIW, I have seen & mentioned earlier auto repeat and previous chapter between clips not working issues, but I have not seen any lockup on next chapter, which I have hit a few tens of times on these homemade red HDDVDs on the 360 addon.

Although I agree that auto repeat does not work, I find that it is not actually necessary to eject the disc to restart it after reaching the end. Usually hitting the Play button on the remote works for me, and when not, can go back to the Xbox dashboard (hit the big silver button with the funny green X, then hit the yellow Y button) then use the arrow buttons to move the dashboard focus down to the bottom half of the tray icon, whereupon it says "Play HD DVD", then click OK, and it does that.

MattDJ

11-16-06, 02:09 PM

the_tom

11-16-06, 02:11 PM

It seems that through this process, if the program contains MPEG Layer 2 audio, it will not play in the 360. I have tried this first with material from a Sony HDRHC1 cam, which is 1440x1080i@29.97 25Mbit CBR with MPEG layer 2 stereo audio (which is why I wished this worked) and although VideoRedo plays the EVO file perfectly the disc just does nothing on the 360 player, whereas if I let MF5 convert the file and tell it I want LPCM audio, the disc plays (with video pauses, so far, still working on that :confused: ). As another test I also tried having MF5 convert a clip that works if unconverted, and convert the audio to MPEG Layer 2 in the process, and the result was the same (EVO plays in VRD, disc does nothing in the player).

Does anyone else have any observations about MPEG Layer 2 audio, through this process and/or on these players in general?

thanks,

-tom-

pteittinen

11-16-06, 02:13 PM

Hello again!

I have an Mpeg file which is 1920 by 1080 which ive opened with HDPatch because it takes forever to load in MF5. The frame rate is 23.976 - which i believe is why MF5 doesnt like it. I have changed it to 29.97 but now i get a stutter in playback... Any ideas?

Thanks!
You changed the framerate back to 23.976 before burning the authored data on disc, right?

the_tom

11-16-06, 02:14 PM

Hello again!

I have an Mpeg file which is 1920 by 1080 which ive opened with HDPatch because it takes forever to load in MF5. The frame rate is 23.976 - which i believe is why MF5 doesnt like it. I have changed it to 29.97 but now i get a stutter in playback... Any ideas?

Thanks!

Sounds like it (MF5) is computing the program time stamps "wrong" to leave room for the extra 6fps that you lied to it about; you might try changing the headers in the EVO file back to 24fps before you burn, but I doubt that will work.

MattDJ

11-16-06, 02:15 PM

No. So change the mpeg file to 29.97 then change the (which?) evo. file to 23.976?

Thanks!

the_tom

11-16-06, 02:20 PM

No. So change the mpeg file to 29.97 then change the (which?) evo. file to 23.976?

Thanks!

Well, you would start with the HV001T01.EVO file in the HVDVD_TS directory that got created by MF5 when it "burned". Longer programs will have more evo files, but why bother with that unless you see it work on a short one?

pteittinen

11-16-06, 02:21 PM

In theory: you change the fps of source before you hand it to MF5, fooling it into accepting the source data, and then you change the fps back to original before burning it on disc. But yeah, it might not work, like the_tom said.

MattDJ

11-16-06, 02:22 PM

I havent got any short ones (its 3.3gb) - i'll give it a try. Thanks :)

MattDJ

11-16-06, 02:51 PM

I processed all headers in all evo movie files... Weird... It has zoomed in on the picture, the top left of the screen!

the_tom

11-16-06, 03:07 PM

I processed all headers in all evo movie files... Weird... It has zoomed in on the picture, the top left of the screen!

"Other than that" :D , how does it play? Good audio? Smooth video? (Admittedly just curious; I have no idea what to do about that...)

Joseph Clark

11-16-06, 03:09 PM

Test pattern? Was it a static display? I just burned 2 minutes of 720p/DD5.1, that works in the 360 on a DVD5, onto a CD, and... it plays, sort of - the audio is pretty clean, the video has some stretches of 5 to 10 seconds where it plays clean, but is mostly long pauses on one frame with occasional updates to a later one. Seems to me the drive doesn't/can't spin the CD fast enough to sustain the data rate, at least not in near the hub.

I'm having difficulty getting 1080i from the Sony HDR-HC1 (1440x1080i, MPEG Layer 2 audio) to play in the 360; I guess CDs work well enough for throwaway tests to see if [whatever I try next] is going to work, which is handy because I've used up all my memex coaster-grade DVD5s :D

Joseph I see you have a Sony HD cam, are you able to get your footage to play on HD DVD?

I can get my footage to play in the Toshiba, but I edit it in Adobe Premiere and convert the MPEG audio to Dolby Digital during that process. I've had trouble getting the original camcorder audio to play on the Toshiba. (Seem to remember some people get it to play from the analog 2-channel outputs? Never tried that.)

A long time ago I was able to get my HC1 footage to play directly in MyHD 130 with audio. I could just capture .m2t files directly from the camcorder and play audio/video flawlessly from the hard drive. One of my MyHD's would play HDV MPEG audio just fine, the other wouldn't. I upgraded some software and then neither would play the audio. I prefer working in Premiere anyway, so I kinda forgot to go back and solve the basic problem. Had I solved that, I'd probably have a handle on the current issue.

As far as test patterns are concerned, I have an HD DVD that contains the HDNet and InHD test patterns. I recorded the HDNet patterns from E* and downloaded the InHD patterns from somewhere. There are other patterns that someone has created that have a full range IRE steps, etc. I ran across that last night and will be downloading it. It's here on the Forum (can't remember where - I was bleary eyed and just went to bed).

MattDJ

11-16-06, 03:15 PM

No still stutters... even tried just doing the patch on the first header of each evo. Now i will try, just the very first evo...

the_tom

11-16-06, 03:16 PM

... tho I'll guess you probly changed the hsize or vsize when you went back into hdpatch to change the evos.

MattDJ

11-16-06, 03:31 PM

They were already 1920 by 1080... i didnt touch em.

the_tom

11-16-06, 05:13 PM

Working with HDV footage from a Sony HC1, which is 1440x1080i 29.97fps 25M bits per second constant data rate.

I was using a short one-minute clip to try to get through audio problems. But the video playback was poor too. I suspected this might be due to the relatively high data rate, about double that of the HDTV streams that we are all mostly working with. So I tried a longer, nine-minute clip. I had to let MF5 convert it to convert the audio from MPEG Layer 2 (which does not play) to LPCM (which does), but I had it "convert" the video to the exact same specs as it comes off the camera (see above). The "burned" output grows a bit less than 5% compared to the input, and there is little damage to the PQ when I do this, tho it takes too long.

So I take this 9 minute long, 1440x1080i 29.97fps 25M bits per second constant data rate video with 48kHz, 384k/s stereo LPCM audio on a DVD5 to the XBox 360 addon drive, and play it all the way thru. Here's what I see:

In the beginning it is all choppy, stuttering, jumpy video and gaps in the audio
At about one minute into the program, the audio becomes continuous
From that point, the video slowly improves with longer sequences of continuous motion, but still very jumpy, until it fairly suddenly becomes mostly continuous and pretty watchable at about 1:32 - 1:35
By about 2:00 there is little or no remaining appearance of stuttering or gaps in either audio or video, and it is just a clean HD program from there through the end.

I think the explanation for this must be that the 360 drive does not spin fast enough to deliver the data for CBR 25M bits per second from the region near the hub with red laser media , but as the read head progresses farther out on the disc, where it spins faster {in the sense of linear velocity under the read head}, it is fast enough.

So it looks like I need about 370 Mb of blank/junk video to fill the early part of the disc if I want to put this stuff on red laser media ...

pteittinen

11-16-06, 06:39 PM

the_tom, the HD DVD spec requires the drive to be able to read ~38mbit/s. Your theory does sound plausible, however.

WiFi-Spy

11-16-06, 07:14 PM

More HD DVD coverart was added:

http://www.wifi-spy.org/coverart

the_tom

11-16-06, 07:37 PM

the_tom, the HD DVD spec requires the drive to be able to read ~38mbit/s. Your theory does sound plausible, however.

But that's for the much denser blue laser media, isn't it? A blue disc should deliver something around 1.8x the data rate of a red laser disc spinning at the same speed? I would be shocked if it couldn't meet the full requirement from actual HDDVD media, I was thinking this was an artifact of the lower linear data density of the red laser media... it might have clearer if I said what I meant ;) that is something more like "the drive doesn't spin fast enough to sustain the 25Mb/s data rate from the region near the hub from red laser media".

David Scott

11-17-06, 12:03 AM

leonowski

11-17-06, 01:51 AM

Test pattern? Was it a static display?

Yes. They were static test patterns like SMPTE color bars.

d-v-c

11-17-06, 02:30 AM

720p30 is rejected by the MF5P "DVD Engine." If is is changed to:

* 720p60

* 720 at 29.97fps (59.94 fields/second) -- Upper field

then it encodes fine. So the claim MF5P now works with 720p is not valid. It only works with 720p60.

It seems to make no difference between if it's VBR or CBR.

Without being able to test the output, I have no idea what simply setting 720p30 to 60p will look like when played back. The goal is to have each frame played twice.

It may make no difference if the 30p frames are treated as 60i. What's interesting is it seems that even the though the resolution is wrong for 30i -- MF5P doesn't care.

I'm still not clear how the Header gets set to such a wrong value. Is it really the Header or is HDPATCH simply reporting incorrectly.

---------------------

I think that perhaps only the full-sized HD DVD players will play red laser disks fast enough for HD. The X-box HD DVD and BD players seem to be unable to spin red laser discs fast enough for HD. So, all this work with MF5P may have limited value unless real BD or HD DVD blue-laser burners are used.

Joseph Clark

11-17-06, 02:44 AM

I burned a dual layer Verbatim +R HD disc using the guide. Worked perfectly in the Toshiba. The movie I have will take up 4 DL discs though, so 3 more to go. Thanks to the "guide" it was really easy....easier than it looks if you're looking at the instructions for the first time and thinking "man, that looks like a lot."
Next up a 25fps file that I see others are trying to get to work.

Good observation about the length of the instructions - very intimidating. This process if far from rocket science, but a lot of people will never know because of the perceived complexity. When Ulead supports .ts files and burning the HD DVD directly from within Movie Factory, it'll simplify everything so much. Hopefully, that isn't that far off.

Our thread is like Nicorette - it helps people through a rough time until its not needed anymore.

pteittinen

11-17-06, 03:11 AM

But that's for the much denser blue laser media, isn't it?
Oh right, indeed. Good point. I'll blame the flu for not thinking things through properly :)

MattDJ

11-17-06, 06:39 AM

Manage to sort out the frame rate difference and stutter... When the file is a TS change it in HD Patch then use Video Redo to make it an mpeg. Seems to have worked for me.

the_tom

11-17-06, 11:52 AM

Working with 2 clips derived from HDTV, three minutes long, 1080i with DD5.1 audio. The first starts out as 12.4Mb/s, I set the MF5 project to convert it to 25M constant, and the output EVO is actually 20.4M (remux the evo with VideoRedo and read the rate off the Finished message box). The second starts out as 17.0 Mb/s, I tell MF5 I want 25M, and the output EVO is actually 27.1Mb/s. Burn to DVD5 and test play in the XBox 360 addon HDDVD drive:

The 20.4Mbps program plays fine from beginning to end, no audio or video stuttering
The 27.1Mbps program plays poorly at the beginning, similar to but not as bad as the HDV program I reported earlier

Initially the audio is almost OK with occasional pops and dropouts, while the video is stutter-vision, a few fames of motion, then still, then jump forward
After about 0:20 there seem to be no more audio problems
The video slowly improves with longer stretches of motion and fewer jumps, seeming normal after about 1:28, and playing OK to the end from there

I think this reinforces the working conclusion that there is a performance problem with the 360 addon with higher date rate material on red laser media and that it is at least in part spin-rate related. And suggests that the audio codec is also contributing to the problem, as this is a major difference from these clips and the HDV-derived one, and the DD5.1 seems a good deal better than the LPCM.

Since US HDTV tops out at 19.8Mbps I don't think we US users should have any (spin/performance related) playback problems with the 360 when we are "timeshifting" HD TV programming onto red laser discs.

For HDV, if we want it to play in the 360 we will apparently need to downsample it from 25M to something more like 20M, or find a way to not use the inner 350-400 MB of the disc.

the_tom

11-17-06, 12:03 PM

I think that perhaps only the full-sized HD DVD players will play red laser disks fast enough for HD. The X-box HD DVD and BD players seem to be unable to spin red laser discs fast enough for HD. So, all this work with MF5P may have limited value unless real BD or HD DVD blue-laser burners are used.

I would not say that, and I do not agree. I think a more nuanced conclusion is appropriate. My testing indicates there should be no playback performance problems in the 360 addon drive at the data rates to be found for US HDTV-derived material; but that there are problems that appear to be spin-rate related with higher data rate material such as HDV recordings, which disc authors may be able work around (not that they should have to!).

d-v-c

11-17-06, 01:33 PM

My testing indicates there should be no playback performance problems in the 360 add-on drive at the data rates to be found for US HDTV-derived material; but that there are problems that appear to be spin-rate related with higher data rate material such as HDV recordings, which disc authors may be able work around (not that they should have to!).

The first starts out as 12.4Mb/s, I set the MF5 project to convert it to 25M constant, and the output EVO is actually 20.4M (remux the evo with VideoRedo and read the rate off the Finished message box).

The 20.4Mbps program plays fine from beginning to end, no audio or video stuttering.

1) Where did you get 1080i60 video at only 12.4Mb/s?

2) If you "converted" it to CBR 25Mb/w then how does it wind-up at only 20.4Mb/s?

3) Why are you "remuxing" the output from MT5P?

I agree wih your conclusion, but the steps seem unclear and the numbers don't make sense.

--------------

Why don't you just output from your NLE an 18.5Mb/s .m2v file and PCM stereo at 48kHz as a .wav file. Then MUX it using MPEGstreamclip and it should be about 20Mb/s. MT5P will accept this.

Or, simply change your NLE's 1080i60 "HDV output PRESET" to 20Mb/s. Now you have a TS file. Then use MPEGstreamclip to convert TS to PS. MT5P will accept this.

Or, output a PS file from your NLE with PCM audio and MPEG-2 video that has a total bit rate of about 20Mb/s.

These all seem simpler ways to get HDV to MT5P. Then MT5P to Nero 7 for burning.

By the way, BD also may be limited to about 20Mb/s from red laser discs.

the_tom

11-17-06, 05:06 PM

1) Where did you get 1080i60 video at only 12.4Mb/s?

Firewire capture from a Moto 6200 cable box. 1080i that I capture that way generally ranges from around 11 Mb/s to around 17 Mb/s.

2) If you "converted" it to CBR 25Mb/w then how does it wind-up at only 20.4Mb/s?

Because, apparently, ULead's encoder considers the parameters you give it to be merely suggestions. This is consistent with the behavior of other ULead apps I have tried. I suppose it would have been clearer if I more elaborately said: "I set the output parameters in the MF5 project to 1920x1080 constant bitrate 25000000 and audio DD 384k, but what it actually output was apparently not exactly that, based on the stats obtained by remuxing the file with VideoRedo, for the sole purpose of getting said stats, it seems the output file has a video data rate of 20.4Mb/s", but really, I did say "I set the MF5 project to convert it to 25M" (emphasis added) then immediately said that the actual output was different from that setting... "assuming" that folks familiar with ULead products would not have too much trouble realizing how that could happen :D

3) Why are you "remuxing" the output from MT5P?
Just as a quick, easy way to get the actual video data rate using a tool that is right at hand and already running on my desktop as I am working on this. When you open a file in VRD and save as, it remuxes the entire file and gives stats when done. File is small enough that it's quick. And I'm already opening the EVO with VRD to eyeball it before I burn.

Why don't you just...

I agree there are lots of ways to get the HDV material re-encoded to fit within 20 Mb/s, given commitment of enough compute time. Here I was concentrating on exploring some behavior of the drive that seems to be relevant for folks trying to do HD DVD authoring on red laser media.

DouglasCleary

11-19-06, 10:50 AM

I got a DVD-R DL disc to play just fine. Actually, the movie may have had some audio problems unrelated to the medium or process. I got a steady machine-gun sound coming over the audio about half way through the film. I'm not sure what would cause that and I may run the AC3 file throught some audion software to see what comes up.

casandra9

11-20-06, 03:36 PM

(...)I think this reinforces the working conclusion that there is a performance problem with the 360 addon with higher date rate material on red laser media and that it is at least in part spin-rate related. And suggests that the audio codec is also contributing to the problem, as this is a major difference from these clips and the HDV-derived one, and the DD5.1 seems a good deal better than the LPCM.

Since US HDTV tops out at 19.8Mbps I don't think we US users should have any (spin/performance related) playback problems with the 360 when we are "timeshifting" HD TV programming onto red laser discs.

For HDV, if we want it to play in the 360 we will apparently need to downsample it from 25M to something more like 20M, or find a way to not use the inner 350-400 MB of the disc.

Hi,
I don't agree with you conclusion. Why, well, the HD DVD specs upto 1080p, 30.24Mbps see below.HD-DVD
Video codecs MPEG2
AVC/H264 - MPEG-4 AVC
VC-1
Video frame size

High Definition Video
1920x1080x59.94i, 50i (16:9)
1920x1080x24p, 23.976p (16:9)
1280x720x59.94p, 50p (16:9)
1280x720x24p, 23.976p (16:9)
Standard Definition Video
720x480x59.94i (4:3/16:9)
720x576x50i (4:3/16:9)
Max video bitrate 29.4 Mbits
Audio codecs Dolby Digital up to 5.1 channels
Dolby Digital Plus up to 7.1 channels
Dolby Lossless up to 9 channels
DTS up to 5.1 channels
DTS HD up to 9 channels
Linear PCM up to 9 channels
Mpeg Audio
Subtitles Image bitmap subtitles
Other Features iHD
iHD allows interactivity to be authored into a data format using XML and ECMAScript (standardized JavaScript) as its interpreted scripting engine. In contrast, the competing Blu-ray Disc high definition video discs will use either HDMV or BD-J for authoring interactive features.
Maximum total bitrate 30.24 Mbits
Maximum data transfer rate 36.55 Mbits
More information dvdforum/The xBox is not able to play 1080p for processing power, 1080i max. This means your HC1/3 footage needs to be handled interlaced which needs plenty of processing power (de-interlacing is a killer). Although HD DVD supports this 1080i the 360 is at its edge to deliver. I will proof this as soon as I have a Software HD DVD player for my desktop PC where the 360 HD DVD drive reads the 27.4 GIG of the King Kong HD DVD off the drive in ~30mins this is plenty of speed, remember the movie is about 2 hrs. Well sure it starts out slower but still be ready at this speed in ~1hr. I can not check the BR of King Kong because of it's AACS but it is 1080p so plenty of BR foresure. It's possible that the burned DVD's, especially the DL are less reflective which is a challenge for the drive.

BTW. 720p @ 30 (29.97) fps is NO HD DVD standard, that's why it is not read by MF5 and not played back by the 360. They are just following the specs accurately.
MEPG Layer 2 isn't either, better to transvert to DD AC3 2.0 224kbps (use AC3Machine and remux w/ MPEG2VCR or VideoRedo (if possible).

My conclusion, I'll get a SR-1 with AVC, which is efficient in BR consumption. Ulead, Sony will bring authoringsoft soon. My reco for you guys, re-compress to 720p @ 59.94fps (60p). This involves de-interlacing as well, but can be done high quality on the PC. There are several possibilities, I would prefer AviSynth (if you interested I'll outline a workflow). Disadvantage: well, it takes ages depending on the encoder. VC-1 is a overkill, AVC no compliant soft encoder available (only the hardware codec in the UX/SR-1 is) and MPEG-2 is wasting space...

sandra

pteittinen

11-20-06, 06:05 PM

I don't agree with you conclusion. Why, well, the HD DVD specs upto 1080p, 30.24Mbps see below.
As was discussed earlier, that applied to blue laser HD DVD. It might not (and probably doesn't) apply to red laser DVD.

The xBox is not able to play 1080p for processing power, 1080i max.
Nonsense. First off, HD playback capability depends a lot more on the codec used than the resolution. Secondly, Microsoft wouldn't have enabled 1080p output unless they were sure of X360 handling it just fine.

I will proof this as soon as I have a Software HD DVD player for my desktop PC where the 360 HD DVD drive reads the 27.4 GIG of the King Kong HD DVD off the drive in ~30mins this is plenty of speed, remember the movie is about 2 hrs. Well sure it starts out slower but still be ready at this speed in ~1hr.
What the hell are you talking about? Yeah, I can view a 2hr movie on my Toshiba HD DVD player in less than a minute, simply by hammering the next chapter button on the remote.

I can not check the BR of King Kong because of it's AACS but it is 1080p so plenty of BR foresure.
No, and no. AACS does not prohibit bitrate checking, and KK is encoded at a surprisingly low average bitrate due to its length.

Joseph Clark

11-20-06, 08:52 PM

Joseph Clark

11-21-06, 03:01 AM

I almost never use Womble MPEG2VCR anymore after the most recent beta of VideoRedo solved the problems I was having. As a matter of fact, I've taken to running files I edited in MPEG2VCR back through VideoRedo, because MPEG's from VideoRedo play back so much more smoothly in software players than they do from Womble. (There seems to be no difference in how MF5 handles the respective MPEG's, and the HD DVD's play the same on the A1, but I'm saving the original MPEG's.)

Long and short of it, I think it would be worthwhile to change the guide to use VideoRedo as the primary MPEG conversion software, and move Womble to the alternate software section. I'd also make a notation about using HDPatch to change the bitrate number. Even after processing through VideoRedo, I've had to change a couple of headers to get MF5 to accept a file without re-encoding.

The only time I've had to use Womble was when the PID information on a .ts file was somehow screwed up. VideoRedo choked on the file, but Womble had no issue processing it.

I think VideoRedo should move to the head of the class, since more people probably will have an easier time with it than MPEG2VCR, and it now works better.

Anyone have an objection or think this is a bad idea?

David Scott

11-21-06, 03:36 AM

pteittinen

11-21-06, 03:38 AM

A source indicates that an impending update for the X-Box HD DVD add-on drive will fix most issues people are having with HD DVD material on red laser media. Please be a little patient and don't stress too much about it. We should hear something very soon.
I hope they do something about the RGsB issue as well. I'm about to buy a couple of Sony SXRD RPTVs, and at the moment Xbox 360 1080p VGA is useless on them, because Sony tellys don't accept Sync on Green.

WiFi-Spy

11-21-06, 06:12 AM

Joseph Clark

11-21-06, 11:03 AM

I'll give VideoRedo a try. I haven't had any problems yet with MPEG2VCR. When you talk about using HDPatch to change the bitrate number are you referring to using it to take 25fps files and making them appear as 29.97 fps? I've been trying to figure out how to get a 25fps file to work, any tutorial/guide would be great :) .

I was referring to having to lower the reported bitrate from, say, 65 Mbps to 20 Mbps to get MF5 to recognize the file as compliant and not re-encode. I had to do that with a couple of videos almost immediately after it came up here as an issue. I used HDPatch to lower the bitrate number reported in the header and MF5 was happy as a clam. I wasn't referring to any frame rate change. I haven't run into that problem yet.

I have been able to get a few videos to process with VideoRedo that I had given up on - namely, the HD Getaway series from Discovery HD Theater. Bora Bora is one of my favorite pieces to show off the projector, but I couldn't burn it to HD DVD in the past, no matter which tools I tried. I've had a lot of success lately with the VideoRedo beta.

the_tom

11-22-06, 09:39 AM

I don't agree with you conclusion. Why, well, the HD DVD specs upto 1080p, 30.24Mbps see below.
Huh. I published my actual test results and the conclusion they compel, and you quotes specs as if that were some kind of counter-evidence? Makes no sense to me. Your argument in normal form is:
1.) A HDDVD player is supposed to be able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps
2.) XBox 360 addon is an HDDVD player
3.) Therefore XBox 360 addon is able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps.
That is not valid, you have made an obvious and basic error in logic. A correctly reasoned conclusion would be
3.) Therefore XBox 360 addon is supposed to be able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps.
And, if premise 1 is true, then in addition to being correctly reasoned, this conclusion would also be true.

Perhaps you are also missing the point that the blue laser disc is the same diameter but has much greater linear data density than red laser media - on the order of double - and so will deliver that much more data at the same spin rate. Which makes it possible for the device to perform properly on commercial blue laser HDDVDs but have a problem at the margin on red laser media.

Right now this problem only manifests on the highest bitrate material I have and only for a small part of the disc. I'm pleased to see the note from Joseph about an upcoming patch, and I consider this issue something to be aware of rather than some kind of fatal flaw.

As for re-encoding everything in 720p60 - I'll get right on that when I have a spare 6 years of compute time to commit. :rolleyes:

the_tom

11-22-06, 11:13 AM

I have been able to get a few videos to process with VideoRedo that I had given up on - namely, the HD Getaway series from Discovery HD Theater. Bora Bora is one of my favorite pieces to show off the projector, but I couldn't burn it to HD DVD in the past, no matter which tools I tried. I've had a lot of success lately with the VideoRedo beta.
Hi Joseph,

I'm envious - DHD is 5C on my cable system, I'm pretty much stuck with SD DVD via DVD recorder if I want to hang on to any of it - enjoy it while it lasts! (OK I could use DVHS, but have issues with cost, storage space, and durability of format.)

-----

Making VRD the mainline of the guide works for me, and I think it makes sense in general.

-----

I was going to say something like "I'm putting a note in my own process to be sure to keep the data rate under 20M on the first 350MB of red laser disc, and you might consider a mention of this in the guide". But I see you post about an upcoming patch - looking forward to it!

-tom-

paxi

11-22-06, 11:30 AM

Joseph Clark

11-22-06, 12:34 PM

Hi Joseph,

I'm envious - DHD is 5C on my cable system, I'm pretty much stuck with SD DVD via DVD recorder if I want to hang on to any of it - enjoy it while it lasts! (OK I could use DVHS, but have issues with cost, storage space, and durability of format.)

-tom-

I have the Nextcom R5000 mod to a Dish 211 receiver, so I should never have to worry about the issue until they change the technology again. Eventually they will, but as you suggest, I'm enjoying it while I can.

WiFi-Spy

11-22-06, 05:54 PM

Huh. I published my actual test results and the conclusion they compel, and you quotes specs as if that were some kind of counter-evidence? Makes no sense to me. Your argument in normal form is:
1.) A HDDVD player is supposed to be able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps
2.) XBox 360 addon is an HDDVD player
3.) Therefore XBox 360 addon is able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps.
That is not valid, you have made an obvious and basic error in logic. A correctly reasoned conclusion would be
3.) Therefore XBox 360 addon is supposed to be able to play up to 1080p, 30.24Mbps.
And, if premise 1 is true, then in addition to being correctly reasoned, this conclusion would also be true.

Perhaps you are also missing the point that the blue laser disc is the same diameter but has much greater linear data density than red laser media - on the order of double - and so will deliver that much more data at the same spin rate. Which makes it possible for the device to perform properly on commercial blue laser HDDVDs but have a problem at the margin on red laser media.

Right now this problem only manifests on the highest bitrate material I have and only for a small part of the disc. I'm pleased to see the note from Joseph about an upcoming patch, and I consider this issue something to be aware of rather than some kind of fatal flaw.

As for re-encoding everything in 720p60 - I'll get right on that when I have a spare 6 years of compute time to commit. :rolleyes:

Red laser HD DVDs are spun at 3x speed, which could be the main issue here since both HD DVDs (ROM) and DVDs spin at 1x.

Clarence

11-22-06, 10:08 PM

I have seen a few posts suggesting that this process can now be done with just one software package - Pinnacle 10.7? Can anyone out there confirm this? If it is true, are there any thoughts about adding this option to the official guide?Sounds promising...
http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Home+Video/Studio+Family/Studio10_7.htmHD DVD Authoring Pack – burn HD DVD-format on standard DVD media discs using standard DVD burners. Play in new HD DVD players (purchase required to activate this feature)

Joseph Clark

11-22-06, 10:12 PM

Sounds promising...
http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Home+Video/Studio+Family/Studio10_7.htm

Pretty sure this is for HDV primarily, not ATSC video.

dsss12

11-23-06, 09:37 AM

Hi, I've been following tihs thread on and off for a while so forgive me if this was already covered. Are they are options, either current or on the horizon for commercial level H263 to Mpeg2 conversion OR burning support for us to use H264 files with the Toshiba? I checked and it looked like the last answer was "no" not for a while but figured it couldn't hurt to ask since more and more this codec is being used these days. Thanks!

texmex

11-23-06, 05:59 PM

Sounds promising...
http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Home+Video/Studio+Family/Studio10_7.htm

Might as well try it out; it's free after rebate at outpost.com at the moment:

Pinnacle Studio 10 FAR (http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4824510)

efranzen

11-24-06, 12:54 PM

I picked up Pinnacle Studio 10 for free from Fry's today. If I get a chance this weekend I'll try it out to see if it works.

And if it doesn't, I also picked up Nero 7 Ultra for free. Heh, gotta love Black Friday.

RADIatiON

11-24-06, 01:00 PM

Thanks much to all for the guide and the discussion. I'm glad to have a way to save up my PBS shows and such.

The process has been working well for me as far as a process goes. I've been using the VideoReDo trial and found that much easier to deal with than MPEG-VCR.

I am having trouble on the xbox-360 HD-DVD when playing higher bitrate stuff. This one seems to work fine.
File Size Processed: 5.66 GB, Play Time: 00h:53m:47s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps, 19.40 Mbps (14.23 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 57.96 KB/Frame, 0.23 Bits/Pixel.But ones similar to this don't:File Size Processed: 3.12 GB, Play Time: 00h:37m:18s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.51 fps Telecine), 38.81 Mbps (11.28 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 56.16 KB/Frame, 0.22 Bits/Pixel.I get scenes every now and then where there is a slight stutter, then everything goes in "fast motion" for a second. It seems to only happen on fast moving scenes or scenes where there is a bunch of detail and movement which leads me to believe it is a high bitrate issue that the xbox add-on can't handle.

Should I be looking at the average or the max and does the Telecine make a difference?

I've tried a couple where I set the max value in the output of VideoReDo but that doesn't seem to affect it at all.

A source indicates that an impending update for the X-Box HD DVD add-on drive will fix most issues people are having with HD DVD material on red laser media. Please be a little patient and don't stress too much about it. We should hear something very soon.Hey Joe,

Is this in reference to the udate that came out on Nov 22. or is there another in the works? Cause I'm hoping there is one coming that will "magically" fix my issues :D

the_tom

11-24-06, 03:55 PM

I am having trouble on the xbox-360 HD-DVD when playing higher bitrate stuff. This one seems to work fine.
But ones similar to this don't:I get scenes every now and then where there is a slight stutter, then everything goes in "fast motion" for a second.

That sounds like the kind of problem folks have when there are gaps in the timecode, which has been discussed some earlier in the thread, including as I recall some suggestions for trying to find and fix.

RADIatiON

11-24-06, 04:31 PM

That sounds like the kind of problem folks have when there are gaps in the timecode, which has been discussed some earlier in the thread, including as I recall some suggestions for trying to find and fix.
Hey the_tom,
thanks for the input, but yes.. I've been through this thread a couple times already. I used MPEG2Repair to check the files first and none reported problems with gaps.
To add to the description, the video can play fine for long stretches when there is no heavy movement scenes. Then it immediately cleans up when back to low movement scenes.

texmex

11-24-06, 05:11 PM

File Size Processed: 3.12 GB, Play Time: 00h:37m:18s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.51 fps Telecine), 38.81 Mbps (11.28 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 56.16 KB/Frame, 0.22 Bits/Pixel.

The peak bitrate is too high (38.81Mbps). HD-DVD specs max at ~30Mbps. Technically, any stream with a peak bitrate (audio + video) over ~30Mbps is out of spec and will [probably] not play on any HD-DVD player. If you want to get this stream onto an HD-DVD disc, you'll need to re-encode (ugh).

texmex

11-24-06, 05:14 PM

RADIatiON

11-24-06, 06:37 PM

What is the source of the higher bitrate stuff? I just can't imagine a program from any distributor (OTA, cable, sat) having a peak bitrate that high (38Mbps).The source for this is found in all the usual locations. When I started reading this thread and experimenting I got some clips of various different things, tv shows mostly. I actually see a lot of stuff (mainly TV shows) with these numbersFile Size Processed: 2.92 GB, Play Time: 00h:22m:03s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps (24.84 fps Telecine), 65.00 Mbps (18.08 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 88.84 KB/Frame, 0.35 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 3/2 Channels (L, C, R, SL, SR) + LFE, 48.0 kHz, 384 kbps.Which brought up my question about which number to be looking at.. the 65.00 Mbps or the 18.08 Mbps Average.
I see that some have patched the header of files with a 65 listed down to something else and it has worked, but I think that's on stand-alone boxes, not the xbox add-on.

I actually have a file that is an HD demo that has these stats :eek: File Size Processed: 2.61 GB, Play Time: 00h:09m:05s
1920 x 1080, 29.97 fps, 65.00 Mbps (38.16 Mbps Average).
Average Video Quality: 155.40 KB/Frame, 0.61 Bits/Pixel.
AC3 Audio: 2/0 Channels (L, R), 48.0 kHz, 448 kbps.

WiFi-Spy

11-24-06, 07:43 PM

What is the source of the higher bitrate stuff? I just can't imagine a program from any distributor (OTA, cable, sat) having a peak bitrate that high (38Mbps).

I would guess its a Demo loop for a TV manufacturer....

WiFi-Spy

11-24-06, 07:46 PM

Might as well try it out; it's free after rebate at outpost.com at the moment:

Pinnacle Studio 10 FAR (http://shop4.outpost.com/product/4824510)

cool,

BTW is it possible for you to add audio patching in HD-Patch ? I reall want to use some 640Kbs DD tracks without having ulead re encode the audio to 448kbs.

efranzen

11-25-06, 12:17 AM

Looks like HD support requires Pinnacle Studio Plus v10.7 which is an additional $30. I did not upgrade to the plus version to test it out.

Joseph Clark

11-25-06, 01:50 AM

Looks like HD support requires Pinnacle Studio Plus v10.7 which is an additional $30. I did not upgrade to the plus version to test it out.

I'm fuzzy on it, but I think we talked about this before. I don't believe this Pinnacle software works well or at all with regular ATSC files, just HDV. Someone started a thread on it earlier.

the_tom

11-25-06, 11:42 AM

...Hey Joe,

Is this in reference to the udate that came out on Nov 22. or is there another in the works? Cause I'm hoping there is one coming that will "magically" fix my issues :D
I hope its another patch in the works, because I just applied the Nov 20 patch, and I see no improvement in the near-the-hub-high-bitrate-playback-problems I have reported previously.

paxi

11-26-06, 10:14 AM

I'm fuzzy on it, but I think we talked about this before. I don't believe this Pinnacle software works well or at all with regular ATSC files, just HDV. Someone started a thread on it earlier.

Sorry, Joseph, but I am new at this. You say that Pinnacle may not work well with ATSC but just HDV. Does this mean that Pinnacle may be fine for personal home video but not good enough for use with recording TV shows/movies, etc.

Joseph Clark

11-26-06, 03:20 PM

Sorry, Joseph, but I am new at this. You say that Pinnacle may not work well with ATSC but just HDV. Does this mean that Pinnacle may be fine for personal home video but not good enough for use with recording TV shows/movies, etc.

I think that was the problem. Apparently, the Pinnacle software doesn't like video captured from sources like OTA and satellite/cable. I was excited when I read the other thread, but IIRC that's why we're not talking more about it.

mtallent

11-26-06, 03:50 PM

What is the source of the higher bitrate stuff? I just can't imagine a program from any distributor (OTA, cable, sat) having a peak bitrate that high (38Mbps).

This is bogus header info. The max bitrate for a sat transponder is around 40 Mbps using 8psk and 30 mbps using QPSK, and there are usually 3 HD channels per transponder. A QAM256 cable channel is also around 40 mbps and a QAM64 is around 28 mbps. The header info on Showtime HD here is 80mbps and the HDNet headers report 65mbps, don't know why they do this but Movie Factory is fooled by it.

Mike T

RADIatiON

11-26-06, 04:40 PM

This is bogus header info. The max bitrate for a sat transponder is around 40 Mbps using 8psk and 30 mbps using QPSK, and there are usually 3 HD channels per transponder. A QAM256 cable channel is also around 40 mbps and a QAM64 is around 28 mbps. The header info on Showtime HD here is 80mbps and the HDNet headers report 65mbps, don't know why they do this but Movie Factory is fooled by it.

Mike TSo does that mean we should be "patching" all headers in these files or is there not a way to correct it? And if we can patch the headers how do we find out what the actual peak bitrate is seeing as MPEG2Repair is reporting this bogus header info? and... who invented liquid soap and why? (sorry :rolleyes: )

As I am doing some more files I've come across some files that I have to cut up (DL's are expensive), has anyone come up with a nice way to "fade-out/fade-in"? Do the out and in clips need to match the bitrate/size of the file in question? And can VideoRedo handle it or is it something else entirely?

mtallent

11-26-06, 05:38 PM

MPEG2Repair will report the correct average bitrate. Just patch the bitrate in HDpatch to 25 or 30 mbps as you will not get any programming in North America from any broadcaster with a true peak bitrate higher than that. The highest bitrate I measure off the C-Band source feeds was 15-16 mbps and it is usually much lower than that. Dish was sending the HDNet channels with their full rate of around 18 mbps, but several months ago they added another feed to the transponder and now the bitrate is in the 12-14 mbps range or less.

I don't think that VideoRedo can do fades. When I was recording HDTV from cable, sometimes I would make several recordings of the same program, then use M2R to find the glitches and then use VideoRedo to cut out the good parts and re-assemble the program using the join menu in VideoRedo and then re-scanned with M2R and would have zero errors. I saved all files as .ts as i used D-VHS on some of them and VideoRedo was the ONLY program that I found that would write a correct transport stream, Womble would create thousands of errors when I tried it to edit transport streams.

I also made a HD demo file by taking about 35 clips from many sources with different bitrates and then joined them with VideoRedo and they played fine, they should all be the same resolution or you will get problems trying to play files with 1080i and 720P mixed together.

Mike T

RADIatiON

11-26-06, 06:33 PM

DigitalfreakNYC

11-26-06, 07:17 PM

I know this has probably been answered but I haven't been reading lately. Any way to burn MPEG4 discs yet? :)

mtallent

11-26-06, 09:24 PM

Thanks for that info mtallent. You also reminded me of something I noticed while playing around that I want to mention.

I had found that importing a bunch of files (001.ts, 002.ts, etc.) into VideoRedo using the Joiner feature resulted for me with glitches where the files were joined together. Almost like there was dropped frams where each was joined with the next. So now I end up joining all the files together manually first using the DOS copy command.

It might have been a problem with the files themselves, I don't know, but I wanted to mention it in case anyone else has experienced something similar.

All my HD archives are segmented .ts files, so I do a lot of joining. VideoRedo works fine for joining segmented files, just highlight all the files and choose the "combine" option when loading into VideoRedo, not the join option. This will create a .VLST file which allows VR to process it as if it were just one big file. You can also combine them with HDTV2MPEG.

Mike T

Joseph Clark

11-26-06, 09:38 PM

I know this has probably been answered but I haven't been reading lately. Any way to burn MPEG4 discs yet? :)

Not yet. Everyone wants this. Maybe in the next release.

Joseph Clark

11-26-06, 09:42 PM

All my HD archives are segmented .ts files, so I do a lot of joining. VideoRedo works fine for joining segmented files, just highlight all the files and choose the "combine" option when loading into VideoRedo, not the join option. This will create a .VLST file which allows VR to process it as if it were just one big file. You can also combine them with HDTV2MPEG.

Mike T

Ditto. Don't know why they chose "join" and "combine" for options that work in such different ways. No chance for confusion, is there?

RADIatiON

11-26-06, 10:23 PM

Ditto. Don't know why they chose "join" and "combine" for options that work in such different ways. No chance for confusion, is there?
Ahhh.. well that explains it then. Silly me I was "joining" when I should of been "combining" :D

Thanks for all your help guys.

Clarence

11-27-06, 10:37 AM

Looks like HD support requires Pinnacle Studio Plus v10.7 which is an additional $30. I did not upgrade to the plus version to test it out.Not only do you need Pinnacle Studio Plus, but you also need the "Pinnacle HD DVD Authoring Pack" which costs an extra $50...
http://pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer+Products/Home+Video/Studio+Family/HD+DVD+Authoring+pack.htm
HD DVD Authoring pack Overview

The Pinnacle HD DVD Authoring Pack lets you make HD DVD format movie discs with Pinnacle Studio Plus...

Use a standard DVD burner to burn HD DVD format discs straight to standard +/- R and RW DVD media...

How it works
The Pinnacle HD DVD Authoring Pack is a locked feature that comes with the latest Pinnacle Studio Plus downloadable update and this feature can then be activated for $49.99 via an online transaction.
I already owned all of the products used here (videoredo and nero, and I bought MF5) and the discs work great... after you follow the steps documented here and make your first disc, it becomes quick and easy. So I don't think I'll spend another $80+ to try pinnacle.

I'm still having issues with the player locking up when skipping between clips, so I'm going to try "combining" my demo clips into one stream and then add chapter marks.

arfster

11-27-06, 11:22 AM

This is bogus header info.

Nah, the 38mbit will be the Samsung demo reel, which is CBR mpeg2. It runs off PCs in showrooms, so no broadcast restrictions, and looks fantastic.

Hyrax

11-27-06, 09:52 PM

I just created a disk that will not play. It is recognized as a HD DVD, but almost instantly after it starts playing a code of I:+*0I. This code is replaced the word ERROR if I try to FF. Does anyone know what the code means?

I tried calling Toshiba, but it is after hours for their support center.

Edit:I spoke to Toshiba this morning and they don't know what the error code means either.

mike_orst

11-29-06, 09:14 AM

Anyone tried this yet?
http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/About+Us/Public+Relations/News.htm?view=news?subPage=%2fPublicSite%2fus%2fAbout%2bUs%2 fHome%2bPage%2bPress%2bReleases%2fPress%2bReleases%2fHD%2bDV D%2bPack%2bNov%2b28%2b06.htm

EDIT: Oops I now see some other people have already started discussing this.

rexjamo

11-29-06, 09:44 PM

Anyone tried this yet?

I just tried Studio 10.7 with HD DVD authoring. It burned the disc ok but I won't play in my 360 HD DVD drive. I get an error code - C667000A. Anyone know what that means?

the_tom

12-01-06, 10:43 AM

I just tried Studio 10.7 with HD DVD authoring. It burned the disc ok but I won't play in my 360 HD DVD drive. I get an error code - C667000A. Anyone know what that means?
I never saw an error code on my discs that won't play - just blank silence, or the X logo frozen in place. Do you have to do anything special to see the error code?

Eugene157

12-03-06, 01:39 PM

I have buned over 20 HD DVDs that play well in my A1 using S10+.Not a single dud.

Recent upgrade to V10.7 much improves performance and fixed a lot of bugs.

Source material was HC1 camcorder and unprotected video from JVC DVHS

Main problem is lack of chapters unless a menu is used.

Picture quality, even with re encoding is outstanding.
Gene

d-v-c

12-03-06, 11:08 PM

3. HDTV files in 720p format also will need to be processed with texmex's HDPatch utility, if you are using a version of Ulead Movie Factory 5 before version 5.3.0.0. Versions after this appear to have full support for 720p built in. (Thanks Leonowski.)

SHOULD READ:

3. HDTV files in 720p format also will need to be processed with texmex's HDPatch utility, if you are using a version of Ulead Movie Factory 5 before version 5.3.0.0. Versions after this appear to have full support for 720p60 built in. (Thanks Leonowski.) HDV 720p30 files, however, still need to be patched. (Thanks d-v-c.)

Joseph Clark

12-04-06, 01:46 AM

Joseph Clark

12-04-06, 03:44 AM

Guide Update Alert!!!

I just changed the guide to use VideoRedo as the main MPEG editing software for the process, and I moved MPEG2VCR to the alternate software section. I also added notes about using VideoRedo and HDPatch to fix high bitrate header information so Movie Factory 5 doesn't re-encode. Also corrected a few typos and probably created a few more. Let me know if I did anything egregious.

Guide Update Alert!!!

d-v-c

12-04-06, 06:17 AM

Although we are working with red-laser media, some may want to experiment with BD-R and BD-RE. From the reviews of the new Sony BD player, it does noy yet support anying but BD-ROM!

Support for BD-R and BD-RE to come "later."

If this is true then it's likely true of all other BD players, except perhaps the PS3. Which means even if you buy a BD burner that's writes BD-R and BD-RE you can't play them.

Since there are no HD DVD burners, except in the Toshiba laptop, it seems the only HD media at this point is red-laser.

Which means it would be great if folks were to create some red-laser discs and try on ALL the new new BD players including the PS3.

If none can work above 20Mbps, then HD DVD is a the only path that provides better than ATSC HD. Which is too bad because it looks like BD players installed base will increase from this point onwards.

It also looks like the XA1 offers no difference than the A1, but it would be nice to have folks try red-laser discs at higher rates in the XA1.

In short, now that the Guide provides the way to create these discs, the questions shift to compatibility. A sticky on compatibility might be nice -- or an additional section to the Guide.

Lastly, those able to create tue 24p Timelines -- what happens if these are directly burned to disc. What do the various BD and HD DVD players do with 24p. Broadcast movies, I easonably sure, use 2:3 pulldown for both 720p60 and 1080i60. The ability to encode only 24p would be a huge advantage, especially if BD playerback is limited to 20Mbps.

macca68

12-04-06, 09:13 AM

I have not been able to get MF5 to accept any pal hidef .mpgs without 'converting'(using VRD and/or MPEG2VCR)...also the projected disk size is considerably larger with pal material.I have tried Cyberlinks PowerProducer 4 and this seems to accept the pal mpegs no problem.25-30 mins later i have a HVDVD_TS folder that burns and plays(using the same Nero 6 procedure i.e.empty VIDEO_TS folder) perfectly fine in my Xbox 360 HD-DVD player.Surely in that short space of time it hasnt reencoded?Looks good

pteittinen

12-04-06, 10:33 AM

Which means it would be great if folks were to create some red-laser discs and try on ALL the new new BD players including the PS3.
Well, I can tell you that PS3 won't even try to play a red laser BD. It lists the disc as a data disc and lets you browse its contents, but there's no way ýou can make PS3 play anything on the disc.

macca68

12-04-06, 04:29 PM

..so has anyone had any luck with pal material..ive tried Sin City 1080i 25fps and Fifth Element 1080p 25fps..neither has been accepted without the dreaded 'converting' warning; though as ive said previously,i tried Cyberlink PowerProducer4 and this seems to work flawlessly though im not entirely sure if some encoding has gone(it takes approx 30mins for 4.25gb dvdr)
Also,and i apologise in advance if this seems a simplistically stupid question,but when ive converted ntsc material and try to play it on my Pal LCD using Xbox 360 HD-DVD i get some some stuttering...is this the age-old issue of ntsc vs.pal differing frame rates and hence stuttering?can i do anything to make it a smoother playback experience.Thanks!

pteittinen

12-04-06, 05:15 PM

pteittinen

12-04-06, 06:21 PM

OK, update. Blue laser HD DVDs are no-go with the new WinDVD. It won't even try to start playback. Red laser discs however seem to work very well, clearly better than on Xbox 360.

rexjamo

12-04-06, 07:06 PM

I never saw an error code on my discs that won't play - just blank silence, or the X logo frozen in place. Do you have to do anything special to see the error code?

No, the error code pops up in a blade from the right of screen after it has tried to read the disc. I've tried making 4 discs all with slightly different settings. None will play on the 360 HD-DVD and all give the same error code. I'm using a Sony HC3 video camera.

I've just found a thread on the Pinnacle Studio 10 forums. Apparently they know that the Studio burned discs won't work in the 360 but they're working on a fix. Hopefully soon.

Joseph Clark

12-04-06, 10:44 PM

Regarding red laser HD DVDs on a Xbox 360 HD DVD drive. I tested a disc on Xbox 360, and playback was very choppy. Audio popped and snapped also. I'm right now viewing the same disc on a PC, using the same HD DVD drive - and playback's flawless at 1920x1080. So it's not the drive, it's the software.

Mind you, get your hands on WinDVD 8 Platinum v8.0.6.101, released December 3rd. It adds HD DVD support and works very nicely, at least with red laser HD DVDs.

The XBox 360 drive plugs into the PC's standard USB port, doesn't it? (I don't have a 360.) And WinDVD has the drivers necessary to support it? If I burn a lot of discs at night, I hesitate to fire up the projector just to test the burns. It'd be nice just to pop it into the XBox drive to see if it was successful. The drive would connected to a USB2 hub that's linked to a computer just below me in the basement.

pteittinen

12-05-06, 03:40 AM

The XBox 360 drive plugs into the PC's standard USB port, doesn't it? (I don't have a 360.) And WinDVD has the drivers necessary to support it?
Yup, plugs into the standard USB. WinDVD has the necessary UDF 2.5 drivers built-in, you don't need any additional drivers for movie playback. You do need drivers, if you want to browse disc contents, but lack of drivers won't stop movie playback. When you connect the drive, Windows will ask for drivers, though. You can skip/cancel both driver requests, however.

pteittinen

12-05-06, 05:30 AM

Something that didn't occur to me, until someone on the Finnish forum asked about it. You can use a regular DVD-drive to play red laser HD DVDs with this new WinDVD. That's nice, wouldn't you say?

Blasst

12-05-06, 09:22 AM

Joseph Clark

12-05-06, 11:55 AM

Joe, your work on this thread is greatly appreciated!

Thanks. It's been the most fun I've had at a computer for a long time. One of the best parts of it is the opportunity to get to correspond with some very interesting, skilled people - from all over the world. What could be better than that?

ecrabb

12-05-06, 12:39 PM

Sorry if this has been asked already, but after reading the entire thread over the last few weeks, I haven't found the answer... or I'm just being stupid and I don't get something.

Everything I've extracted so far from my DirecTV HD-Tivo is 1280x1088. I understand patching from 1088 to 1080 and have done so. Predictably (to me, I guess) though, MF5 wants to reencode the 1280x1080 file because it isn't 1920 or 1440 wide. I tried to patching it to 1920 or 1440 and I think I got black/no video in MF5, then. What am I doing wrong?

I have successfully used the process to burn a disc with a 1080i OTA recording from a MyHD card, and the disc (with chapter stops!) plays beautifully on both a Toshiba A1 and on the 360. I burned the dual-layer UDF disc in Toast on the Mac since I have a faster burner on that machine. When I saw it playing on the projector in the A1, I was so excited I was practically giggling like a schoolgirl. Thanks to everyone for all their hard work on this. When I can figure out the DirecTivo thing, I'll be happy as a pig in...

SC

Joseph Clark

12-05-06, 12:55 PM

ecrabb

12-05-06, 09:42 PM

OK, I feel stupid - the problem had nothing to do with the stream being 1280 pixels wide.

I went back and started looking everything over again looked at Bikini Destinations file in HDPatch and noticed the the bitrate was 65000000. Then I went and clicked the 'i' (info) button in DVD Movie Factory and noticed the "max bitrate" was 14mbps. Duh. OK, I AM just stupid. Patched it to 14mbps, imported the file into DVD MF again and it immediately took off muxing. Sorry for the confusion. Nothing to see here... as you were.

It's worth noting that that very issue is mentioned several times in this thread but for some reason I got hung up on it having something to do with the frame size and completely overlooked the bitrate issue.

I'll be purchasing VideoReDo and DVD MovieFactory right away!

Thanks again to all involved for all the hard work on this thread. I'm still giddy that I can burn these discs and play them back without a computer. Woo hoo!

Now, if we just didn't have to string them across several discs.

SC

MattDJ

12-06-06, 02:56 PM

Hi Joseph... How about a guide to convert H264 to Mpeg2 so we can play some of those other HD files???
Thanks! :-)

Joseph Clark

12-06-06, 05:57 PM

Hi Joseph... How about a guide to convert H264 to Mpeg2 so we can play some of those other HD files???
Thanks! :-)

That's a great idea, and I'd be happy to include it, but you're asking the wrong guy for the how-to. As soon as we can get that info, it'll be in the guide.

MattDJ

12-06-06, 06:24 PM

Make it happen! Thank Yooouu.

cmltek

12-06-06, 06:30 PM

I have a video shot with an hd cam that I edited in premeire pro 2. all footage is hd and I want to export this movie in a way to be able to burn it in hd and watch on my A1. should i export as a mpg and start the steps from there or some other way is better? thanks

ecrabb

12-07-06, 01:35 AM

Hi Joseph... How about a guide to convert H264 to Mpeg2 so we can play some of those other HD files???

Even better, instead of re-enconding the files to MPEG2, figure out how to author the HD-DVD to play the h.264 files as-is... AVC is part of the HD-DVD spec along with VC1 and MPEG2!

Man, wish I had more time!!!

SC

ecrabb

12-07-06, 01:38 AM

should i export as a mpg and start the steps from there or some other way is better? thanks

No, that should pretty much do it! As long as you were editing native HDV (1440x1080i or 1280x720p), you should be able to follow the guide as-is.

SC

starwarp

12-07-06, 07:07 AM

Thank You alls from Germany for this great Guide

I have 1 Problem with MF5

I have looked for a good HD Sample File from an DVD-ROM
There was a File with 1920x1080 25fps on it wit 20mbit

I Have take this file to correct it with Videoredo for the Gops and import it to MF5

But when i authored it without a Menu in PAL Mode 1920x1080/25fps MF5 will reencode it

What can i do ???

P.S.

1.In the Log of Redo where are the Area i can see for Errors
2.Can i put some Different files with different Resolutions to Authoring one DVD?
cu

DigitalfreakNYC

12-07-06, 10:19 AM

Even better, instead of re-enconding the files to MPEG2, figure out how to author the HD-DVD to play the h.264 files as-is... AVC is part of the HD-DVD spec along with VC1 and MPEG2!

Man, wish I had more time!!!

SC

This is what we're all waiting for.

DrCrawn

12-07-06, 02:30 PM

Caffespresso

12-07-06, 03:26 PM

I followed the instructions religiously until the Nero burning part. I am using Nero 6 OEM, and the menu options arent' exactly the same. Choosing "data DVD," I added the HD DVD folder, then dragged and dropped the "Video_TS.vob" ontop of that folder. I got a warning message, ignored, and burned. The disc played flawlessly on the 360, but no go on the Toshiba. Any ideas?

From the 1st post on this subject:

a. Launch Nero Burning ROM and select "DVD-ROM (UDF)" on the left side of the screen (you may need to scroll down).
b. Under the "Multisession" tab, select the "No Multisession" radio button.
b. Click on the "UDF" tab.
c. In the "Options" pull-down (or the checkbox under "Advanced," depending on your version of Nero), select "Enable Xbox (TM) compatibility mode."
d. Disregard any warnings and continue.

Nero 6 seems more problematic than Nero 7 too.

Good luck.

DrCrawn

12-07-06, 03:52 PM

From the 1st post on this subject:

a. Launch Nero Burning ROM and select "DVD-ROM (UDF)" on the left side of the screen (you may need to scroll down).
b. Under the "Multisession" tab, select the "No Multisession" radio button.
b. Click on the "UDF" tab.
c. In the "Options" pull-down (or the checkbox under "Advanced," depending on your version of Nero), select "Enable Xbox (TM) compatibility mode."
d. Disregard any warnings and continue.

Nero 6 seems more problematic than Nero 7 too.

Good luck.

Yep, don't have any of those options in my version, which is Nero 6 Express OEM.

Thanks anyway, I will play around with different Nero versions.

tscotsman

12-07-06, 04:47 PM

anyone having problem with audio sync with videoredo? strange that some seem to be slightly out and others are fine and im using the same method all the time. could it be the video bitrate? Im just in the process of knocking it down from the default 25000 to 20000.

Joseph Clark

12-07-06, 06:21 PM

Just authored my first HD DVD and it plays fine on the 360 add on drive (dashboard recognizes it as "hd dvd") but when I insert it into my Tosh A1, it tries to read it, then just blinks "no play" over and over.

I followed the instructions religiously until the Nero burning part. I am using Nero 6 OEM, and the menu options arent' exactly the same. Choosing "data DVD," I added the HD DVD folder, then dragged and dropped the "Video_TS.vob" ontop of that folder. I got a warning message, ignored, and burned. The disc played flawlessly on the 360, but no go on the Toshiba. Any ideas?

Should I get a newer version of Nero and try again?

BTW, the disc looks spectacular and the 5.1 sound remained intact. Oh I should also mention that I used a dual layer disc...anyone having problems with the Tosh reading dual layer? Thanks all.

Yes, it could be the double layer burner you're using. I had several failures on double layer until I started burning with my Plextor and NEC burners. My Pioneers and an older Toshiba failed on DL burns on a regular basis. Try a search on DL DVD burners or double layer DVD burners on this thread. Some model numbers should pop up. We really need to get a list of burners that work (I've been meaning to do that forever). I believe the NEC 2550 or 3550 work well and are cheap, but make sure you do a search before buying. Try NewEgg.

RADIatiON

12-07-06, 06:48 PM

Hey DrCrawn,

I'm using Nero 6 also (not the OEM though) and DL+DVD's and have had no problems. I don't have a STB though... so mine may not work in them at all, but I noticed a couple of things from your description.

...Choosing "data DVD," I added the HD DVD folder, then dragged and dropped the "Video_TS.vob" ontop of that folder.You need to select DVD-Video. I get to mine from File -> New... which opens up another window with icons down the left side. There is an icon 3rd from the top that says exactly "DVD-Video".

This creates two folders automatically, an AUDIO_TS folder and a VIDEO_TS folder. You need to drag and drop the VIDEO_TS.VOB file into the VIDEO_TS folder... not the HD-DVD folder. The file VIDEO_TS.VOB should also be all in caps... although when dragging and dropping Nero shows it in "proper case", but on the disc it will be all in caps if you created it that way.

So you should end up with three folders at the root level of the disc... AUDIO_TS, VIDEO_TS, and the folder that MF created.

I got a warning message, ignored, and burned.I get that message also... two of them actually. First one says something about this "not being a compliant DVD" and then the second one is a confirmation that "yes.. I want to burn it anyway" type button... that if you leave long enough without clicking yes will cancel the whole job for you.

If you like I can PM you some screenshots if that will help.

Hope that helps.

Joseph Clark

12-07-06, 07:50 PM

Good point. That's the problem. I missed it.

Caffespresso

12-07-06, 08:07 PM

I had some problems with DVD+R-DL too (Fujifilm and Verbatim). So I slowed my burning speed to 2.4x. Since then, no more problems in my HD-A1.

Regards.

pteittinen

12-08-06, 05:33 AM

I had some problems with DVD+R-DL too (Fujifilm and Verbatim). So I slowed my burning speed to 2.4x. Since then, no more problems in my HD-A1.
Let me guess: the discs were specced for 2.4x and you were burning them at higher speeds?

Btw, Nec 35xx burners are good, but my favourite now has to be the Pioneer 111.

Caffespresso

12-08-06, 09:26 AM

Let me guess: the discs were specced for 2.4x and you were burning them at higher speeds?

In fact, I don't have Fujifilm DVD's anymore so I can't tell if they were 4x or 2.4x, but Verbatim are 4x.
Sony DRU-800A is my burner.

There's so many burners in the market, burning so many brands of medias with so many computers configurations (hardware/software). Issues are normal. Everybody had their own experiences, trying to find solutions for their problems...

And, sometimes, helping others in this forum...

Cheers!

DrCrawn

12-08-06, 03:44 PM

Success! Sweet sweet success!

Note: do not use Nero 6 Express OEM (if anyone has this version)!

I used the trial version of Nero 7 and used the 1st method (DVD-ROM UDF) and my disc plays fine on both the Toshiba and 360.

Thx to Caffespresso, Joseph Clark, and RADIatiON for your help!

BTW, I am using +R DL from Memorex @2.4x speeds, no issues.

Burner is Pioneer DVR 110D.

WiFi-Spy

12-08-06, 04:05 PM

more covers added

http://www.wifi-spy.org/coverart

DrCrawn

12-08-06, 04:27 PM

more covers added

http://www.wifi-spy.org/coverart

holy crap that is awesome work !

Joseph Clark

12-08-06, 08:56 PM

Joseph Clark

12-08-06, 08:59 PM

Anyone try these discs out yet with the Toshiba A2? I have the X-Box 360 add-on drive, but haven't had a chance to download WinDVD 8 yet. I'm probably one of just a few people on the planet who bought this drive and don't have an X-Box.

DrCrawn

12-08-06, 10:51 PM

Odd. I have a Pioneer 110 and it won't give me good DL burns.

Hmm....110, or 110D?

Which firmware version are you running, bc the early ones for the 110D were pretty spotty. I think 1.41 is the latest.

Joseph Clark

12-09-06, 01:54 AM

Regarding red laser HD DVDs on a Xbox 360 HD DVD drive. I tested a disc on Xbox 360, and playback was very choppy. Audio popped and snapped also. I'm right now viewing the same disc on a PC, using the same HD DVD drive - and playback's flawless at 1920x1080. So it's not the drive, it's the software.

Mind you, get your hands on WinDVD 8 Platinum v8.0.6.101, released December 3rd. It adds HD DVD support and works very nicely, at least with red laser HD DVDs.

I just downloaded the WinDVD 8 trial version and the add-on drive isn't playing HD DVD discs. I can't seem to locate the version number of the trial. It's not in any of the usual places.

Joseph Clark

12-09-06, 01:56 AM

Hmm....110, or 110D?

Which firmware version are you running, bc the early ones for the 110D were pretty spotty. I think 1.41 is the latest.

I've had trouble updating because the drive is in a USB enclosure and the software doesn't want to see it. I'm going to have to install it internally.

pteittinen

12-09-06, 05:06 AM

Forget 110, it's not very good. I've been using 111D with firmware 1.29 very successfully, and can recommend it very highly.

pteittinen

12-09-06, 05:10 AM

I just downloaded the WinDVD 8 trial version and the add-on drive isn't playing HD DVD discs. I can't seem to locate the version number of the trial. It's not in any of the usual places.
Joseph, it won't play commercial blue laser HD DVDs at all. I guess Intervideo is up to their usual tricks with AACS there.

You can find the version number in Setup > Information, second item from the top.

mrwilson

12-09-06, 09:39 AM

Joseph Clark

12-09-06, 11:10 AM

Joseph, it won't play commercial blue laser HD DVDs at all. I guess Intervideo is up to their usual tricks with AACS there.

You can find the version number in Setup > Information, second item from the top.

I didn't even try a blue laser disc. I couldn't get it to read the red laser ones. Is that a feature that's only enabled when you buy the full version? (Mine reads version 8.0 B06.101.)

Joseph Clark

12-09-06, 11:13 AM

I have a 108, 110 and 111. Something is wrong with the 110 models. Burned DLs fine for a few months and then started choking on them. It was cheaper to dump it and get a 111 than to keep making coasters. The 111 is solid.

I have Pioneer the 108, 109 and 110 and none will burn DL properly. My Plextor 750's have no problem, nor does the Mad Dog 6-in-1 (which pteittenen tells me is a rebadged NEC).

Hyrax

12-09-06, 11:44 AM

I searched the thread but cannot find the solution to my problem, even though I know it was discussed.

The basic issue is that I cannot find the XBox compatibility UDF option in Nero 6.6. I just bought a new computer from Gateway and installed Nero on it. I used to see the Xbox option on my old computer, but do not on my new one. Is the problem the DVD drive? I don't know the make, but its hardware ID is HL-DT-ST DVD-RW GSA-H11N.

What exactly is XBox compatibility mode? Can I manually set UDF options to do the same thing?

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Joseph Clark

12-09-06, 11:47 AM

Hyrax

12-09-06, 07:02 PM

Do you have "No Multisession" selected?
Joe-
<sheepish look on face> That was it - thanks!

Brajesh

12-09-06, 08:21 PM

Anyone try these discs out yet with the Toshiba A2?
Just got my HD-A2 & the first thing I did was try my homebrew HD DVDs. Bad news :(! They play, but stutter significantly. I have over 150 homebrews & don't know what to do now. Guess I need to also keep my A1. Now I wish I'd saved my original TS files, but of course I made them into HD DVDs cuz I was running out of space.

Joseph Clark

12-09-06, 10:11 PM

I did not notice any stutter on my discs I checked - what type of discs? If it is the media you can copy the files off and reburn on media that works. If I get time tomorrow I'll check the various discs I have and see what works and what doesn't.

Thanks. That'll help a lot. Anyone else with anything to report?

Joseph Clark

12-09-06, 10:52 PM

I did not notice any stutter on my discs I checked - what type of discs? If it is the media you can copy the files off and reburn on media that works. If I get time tomorrow I'll check the various discs I have and see what works and what doesn't.

Let us know if you're using +R or -R. The A2 still doesn't officially list support for +R, but that's all I've ever used. Hope it's not true now.

Brajesh

12-10-06, 09:16 AM

Mine were Memorex and Verbatim DL DVD+Rs. They all play very smoothly on my A1. I'll try my SL DVD+R and -R discs later today, then report back.

The stutter I saw seemed like the drive not being able to spin fast enough. The A1 behaves more like a computer than the A2, so maybe it has a better buffering capability.

pteittinen

12-10-06, 12:21 PM

I didn't even try a blue laser disc. I couldn't get it to read the red laser ones. Is that a feature that's only enabled when you buy the full version? (Mine reads version 8.0 B06.101.)
Do you see a HD DVD tab in the Setup menu? The tab didn't appear for me until I rebooted and re-attached the drive a couple of times so Windows reported finding a Xbox 360 drive.

Brajesh

12-10-06, 02:16 PM

Previously I had only tried my camcorder footage HD DVDs, but I did some more testing of several different homemade HD DVDs on the HD-A2...

All my OTA, cable & satellite TS files converted to HD DVD work fine. They're all between 9-18 mbps, the latter bitrate from the good old days before HD-Lite. The few I've created menus for, the navigation is sluggish. I've found no difference between SL, DL, or -R/+R discs. Some discs, the playback stutters, but if I jump one chapter back or forward, the playback becomes normal again. Skipping around or FF/REW can cause the stutter again.

Michael, I agree w/you though. The Memorex 2.4x DL seem to be more problematic. However, my Fuji 2.4x DLs all play smoothly.

My Sony HC3 camcorder footage HD DVDs stutter no matter what. I only have DL discs of those at this point, so don't know if SL would play smoothly. The problem I think is that the HC3 footage is 25 mbps/sec. I'm guessing the A2 can't handle this on DVD media. Hope someone else can test this.

Audio is finnicky. Some DD5.1 tracks don't lock on my Onkyo SR604 receiver via HDMI. So, I'm using an optical connection as well & that has been fine so far.

Joseph Clark

12-10-06, 05:31 PM

Caffespresso

12-10-06, 08:40 PM

Caffespresso

12-10-06, 08:42 PM

I think is that the HC3 footage is 25 mbps/sec

My HC1 footage is 25 mbps/sec, 1440x1080i, 29.97 fps.

Regards.

bobkart

12-10-06, 09:10 PM

Yes, that is one of two possible HDV specifications, the other being 720p:

http://www.geocities.com/mammacow3/HDVSpec.htm

Brajesh

12-10-06, 10:01 PM

I tested some 30mbps content sent to me by Grandmaster and it played OK on the A1 (red laser, of course). I'm assuming your playback on the A2 is, indeed, more iffy than it is on the A1, right? The A1 had no trouble skipping with those same discs?
Right. My A1 has had no trouble playing the 25 mbps HC3 footage. I hope someone else w/high bitrate MPGs, 25 mpbs or greater, can test their HD DVDs in the A2 & report back.

At this point, as I really like the A2 better than the clunky A1 as my HD DVD player, I'm looking for cheap or free software to re-encode my 25mbps TS/MPG files to around 18 mbps.

Joseph Clark

12-10-06, 10:35 PM

Right. My A1 has had no trouble playing the 25 mbps HC3 footage. I hope someone else w/high bitrate MPGs, 25 mpbs or greater, can test their HD DVDs in the A2 & report back.

At this point, as I really like the A2 better than the clunky A1 as my HD DVD player, I'm looking for cheap or free software to re-encode my 25mbps TS/MPG files to around 18 mbps.

I was ready to test today, but my local Best Buy didn't get the A2 in. Supposed to be tomorrow. Of course, testing is on a 30" LCD right now. My projector is down - 1080p replacement is coming Tuesday.

d-v-c

12-11-06, 03:14 AM

Right. My A1 has had no trouble playing the 25 mbps HC3 footage. I'm looking for cheap or free software to re-encode my 25mbps TS/MPG files to around 18 mbps.

In many NLE software apps you can simply CHANGE the data-rate ENCODING value to 18Mbps.

Then it will export 1080i at about 20Mbps. There is no need to re-encode!

You can then push the 18Mbps up by 0.5Mbps until it breaks on the A2. You might get to 19Mbps.

Brajesh

12-11-06, 10:14 AM

Does "NLE" stand for "non-linear editing"? I have Womble MPEG-VCR & Video Re-do. Can I change the bitrate to 18mbps using either? Would I go into 'properties' or something to do this?

Is what you're suggesting simply tricking the A2 into thinking it's getting 18mbps or really getting 18mbps? The other thing I need to try is a SL DVD blank & see if the A2 can handle 25mbps.

GodobeHD

12-11-06, 12:41 PM

Did someone have heard of coming software (Premiere Pro, Vegas etc.) that will be able to work with VC1 encoded files for HD-DVD? Any date?

Can we tweak MF5 to accept those files (with HDpatch etc.)?

I know I'm not alone dreaming of 90 minutes HD movie on a single DVD DL...

Cheers.
Most of the HD movies I recorded off the ABC & Fox (720p) fit on one memerox DL DVD. At 12mb/sec one DL DVD holds about 90min HD DVD.

wittangamo

12-11-06, 01:45 PM

Just wanted to take a moment to thank everyone contributing to this thread. Had my first success today burning an HD DVD copy of "Frosty the Snowman" recorded OTA in 1080i on my homebuilt Media Center PC.

Followed the directions using VideoReDo, MovieFactory 5 and Nero 7. Worked like a charm and plays fine in my Xbox 360 add-on. Much crisper than the SD DVD I made last year from the same source.

I've got the last six episodes of Heroes ready to burn. If I can just find uncompressed copies of the first six I'll have a complete set.

Never could have done it on my own. Much appreciated.

talbain

12-11-06, 02:11 PM

The source for this is found in all the usual locations. When I started reading this thread and experimenting I got some clips of various different things, tv shows mostly. I actually see a lot of stuff (mainly TV shows) with these numbersWhich brought up my question about which number to be looking at.. the 65.00 Mbps or the 18.08 Mbps Average.
I see that some have patched the header of files with a 65 listed down to something else and it has worked, but I think that's on stand-alone boxes, not the xbox add-on.

I actually have a file that is an HD demo that has these stats :eek:

Nah, the 38mbit will be the Samsung demo reel, which is CBR mpeg2. It runs off PCs in showrooms, so no broadcast restrictions, and looks fantastic.

has anyone been able to successfully burn this demo reel or any max bit rate video to disc and have it play properly on the 360 hd dvd add on (or any hd dvd drive for that matter)?

as mentioned, it's a 38mbps file. i run it through videoredo and there are no errors or problems. if i then leave it alone movie factory tries to recode it. i patched the header down to 25 using hd patch and movie factory recognizes it and doesn't recode it. it burns fine with nero, but when i go to play it, it starts up fine but the video stutters like crazy throughout. audio plays fine. any ideas?

on a related note, many of the clips (mostly demo loops) i run through videoredo give me errors such as:

PTS underflow
input sequence error
audio frame, video resync error

these clips seem to then play fine on the pc, but when they're burned to disc they lock up the player hard...

davidcw8

12-11-06, 09:21 PM

Will VS10+ create the correct folders to burn a HD-DVD i.e. HVDVD_TS etc. like MF5?
Although I select HD-1440 in the "Disc Template Manager" the "Project Settings" will only show 720 x 480 and only the standard DVD folders are created.

davidcw8 :confused:

chap

12-11-06, 10:35 PM

I'm having a problem I can't figure out. I have done multiple tests on my 360 and I have had no sucess. I have a 2 minute 1440x1080i file that I recorded with a sony z1u camcorder. I followed the directions to a Tee, but when I play the DVD+R in my 360 all it does is go to a black screen and hang.

Is there something wrong with the instructions when it comes to a 360?

One last thing of note, I'm using Memorex blank DVD+R's. I connected my 360 drive up to my pc and it can read normal HD-DVD's, but not read that disks I am burning. Perhaps its the type of blanks I'm using.

Are there specific types of blanks anyone else is using that works? Has anyone burned with memorex's and gotten them to work?

Thanx.

WiFi-Spy

12-12-06, 07:22 AM

has anyone been able to successfully burn this demo reel or any max bit rate video to disc and have it play properly on the 360 hd dvd add on (or any hd dvd drive for that matter)?

as mentioned, it's a 38mbps file. if i leave it alone movie factory tries to recode it. i patched the header down to 25 using hd patch and movie factory recognizes it and doesn't recode it. it burns fine with nero, but when i go to play it, it starts up fine but the video stutters like crazy throughout. audio plays fine. any ideas?

30Mb/s is the Peak MUX rate for HD DVD including Audio/Video/subs/HDi/ect.....

captain_video

12-12-06, 09:22 AM

I just placed an order for a Toshiba HD-A2 after seeing this thread. The prospect of being able to record HD content to standard DVD-Rs without expensive DVD burners or HD media has knocked me off the HD DVD format fence. I've been extracting and burning DVDs from material recorded on standard definition DirecTivos for about six years now so the process outlined here looks quite familiar, but I've got a couple of questions. I've tried the search function but got too many hits to wade through.

I installed VideoReDo on my PC quite a while ago and have kept up with the latest updates. I know there is an option to select when using Ulead products but since I wasn't using any at the time I left it deselected. Is it necessary to have this set up to work with DMF5? If so, is there an option somewhere in the menus that it can be selected after it has already been set up?

I've used DVDPatcher in the past so I'm somewhat familiar with the process of patching headers. I seem to get the sense that it is preferable to patch all of the headers in the mpeg file rather than just the first one. I used to patch just the first header when importing my 480x480 mpeg files from a SD DTivo into SpruceUp. This was used just to fool SpruceUp into believing it was working with DVD-compliant resolutions, much the same as it is being done with DMF5. The thing is, we always patched the first VOB back to 480x480 when we were finished since that's the actual resolution of the files and leaving just the first header patched tended to make the DVD unplayable.

I guess the actual question here is whether or not the Toshiba HD-A2, and other HD-DVD players as well, will play 1280x1088 files. If so, then I would see the need to patch the first EVO file back to 1280x1088 rather than leave it at 1080. Obviously, many of you aren't seeing a problem with leaving the headers patched and, since the change in resolution is relatively minor (if not altogether insiginificant) it may be a moot point. I'm wondering if anyone has actually tried patching the first header to 1080 and then patching it back to 1088. I couldn't help but notice that HDPatcher only appears to patch it in one direction.

I also didn't see a definitive answer to the question of tagging just the first header vs. the entire mpeg file. If you are only tagging the first header to allow the mpeg file to be imported into DMF5 or VS10, then you need to patch it back. Otherwise, you'd probably need to patch the entire file. All headers within the same mpeg file should be at the same resolution or it could cause problems during playback. The DVD player will be expecting to see all headers at the same resolution as the first one it sees on that group of VOBs or EVOs. Since the two resolutions are so close it may not cause any problems but since I havn't received my HD-A2 yet this is purely speculation on my part. I will definitely be doing some experimentation once I receive my player to see if there are any discernible differences.

talbain

12-12-06, 11:06 AM

30Mb/s is the Peak MUX rate for HD DVD including Audio/Video/subs/HDi/ect.....

ok then, i understand why that one wouldn't work. what about these errors that are reported in videoredo? it seems that every time there's the slightest problem with the file, it will render the disc unplayable. even files that i've had to patch with hd patcher because they are 1088 instead of 1080 refuse to work

Alan Gouger

12-12-06, 11:23 AM

I have not kept up with this thread in a while. Has anything improved with the process from early on. Any new programs to simplify the process sense the first few pages. Thanks!

chap

12-12-06, 11:39 AM

I have not kept up with this thread in a while. Has anything improved with the process from early on. Any new programs to simplify the process sense the first few pages. Thanks!

Alan I believe the front page process gets updated with any new process. The only other app available thats not mentioned is the Pinnacle plugin that burns HD-DVD to DVD, but that seems to have problems working on 360's.

chap

12-12-06, 11:40 AM

I got my DVD burns to work on my 360 with capped tv shows, but not with footage I captured on my camcorder. Anyone have any idea's about what might be wrong with the footage?

Joseph Clark

12-12-06, 12:01 PM

I have not kept up with this thread in a while. Has anything improved with the process from early on. Any new programs to simplify the process sense the first few pages. Thanks!

The biggest single thing that's new and simplifies the process is that the latest version of Movie Factory 5+ now supports native 720p broadcasts (OTA and satellite, but not HDV). So, you don't have to go through the process of fooling MF5 into thinking a 720 is a 1080. The other big thing is that the latest VideoRedo is much more likely to create files that won't choke MF5 when you try to load them. You activate that feature with a secret button press (it's in the guide). I moved VideoRedo to the head of the class because of that alone.

If you have a printout of the guide, it did undergo its biggest single overhaul recently. It wasn't huge, but it did contain a fair amount of new information. There is also a change in the FAQ section about using HDPatch to change high bitrate headers so MF5 doesn't re-encode.

Joseph Clark

12-12-06, 12:06 PM

Joseph Clark

12-12-06, 12:07 PM

I got my DVD burns to work on my 360 with capped tv shows, but not with footage I captured on my camcorder. Anyone have any idea's about what might be wrong with the footage?

The word I got recently was that a firmware update was coming soon that would fix a lot of the 360 issues people have been talking about. We haven't heard yet.

Alan Gouger

12-12-06, 12:09 PM

Thanks all:)

Kelendral

12-12-06, 12:38 PM

Ok, I tried search in thread and didn't see this. Last night I burned a disc with a show from my firewire capture. The show is 1920x1080i. I had no problems in VideoRedo and Ulead MF5. Burned the disc with Nero 6 (getting 7 today).

Now here is the issue. I put the disc in the player and it recognized the disc and said HD-DVD on the LCD. It then went to Play, and after a few moments without any on-screen messaging the LCD front panel of the HD-XA1 shows "HDMI Error 1". I find this really strange as all of my HD-DVDs play fine and even if I eject my homemade disc and put a store bought disc in it works and plays fine. The TV recognizes the 1080i input and plays fine.

talbain

12-12-06, 12:45 PM

I have not kept up with this thread in a while. Has anything improved with the process from early on. Any new programs to simplify the process sense the first few pages. Thanks!

no, the process is ridiculous. the faq here does a great job of explaining how it's done, but when you need to use 3 to 6 separate programs to author a simple clip disc and STILL have a very real possibility of burning a coaster, the process is not quite ready for primetime :mad:

in the past 2 days i'm ashamed to say i have burned 2 successful discs and 14 coasters that are unplayable on the 360 hd dvd drive...when i hit 20 i'll just give up :(

jjoboh

12-12-06, 12:55 PM

i have burnt 48 dual layer and 32 single layer and not a single coaster yet :)

Joseph Clark

12-12-06, 01:01 PM

no, the process is ridiculous. the faq here does a great job of explaining how it's done, but when you need to use 3 to 6 separate programs to author a simple clip disc and STILL have a very real possibility of burning a coaster, the process is not quite ready for primetime :mad:

in the past 2 days i'm ashamed to say i have burned 2 successful discs and 14 coasters that are unplayable on the 360 hd dvd drive...when i hit 20 i'll just give up :(

A lot of people are having issues with the 360 drive. The regular Toshiba drive will give much better results. Sorry you're having such problems. (We're still waiting for more info on the A2. I will probably have information on that today, if I can get hold of one.)

It may not make you feel any better, but I had a lot of problems in the beginning and most of them have just gone away. I almost never get a coaster (unless it's Nero's fault) and almost everything works well now.

chap

12-12-06, 01:15 PM

The word I got recently was that a firmware update was coming soon that would fix a lot of the 360 issues people have been talking about. We haven't heard yet.

So its a 360 issue?

talbain

12-12-06, 01:28 PM

So its a 360 issue?

i'm sure it's not helping. i'm curious to see if any a2 owners have problems, since the 360 hddvd add on shares the same drive with the a2. i'm thinking half of my problems are gen 2 related issues, and the other half are just bad source files (i was describing the various errors a few posts earlier). so far, other than 1 hd test pattern disc that works great, everything else i've tried to burn has been those hd demo loops the ce manufacturers release. those results have been mostly horrendous...

the fact that i did successfully burn 2 discs gives me confidence that the process works, so it has to be either the source files or the new hardware introducing trouble.

wittangamo

12-12-06, 01:53 PM

No complaints about the Xbox 360 add-on here.

Not a single coaster using VideoReDo Plus 2.5.3.501, Ulead DVD MovieFactory 5.0 and Nero 7 Ultra 7.5.9.0. with either TDK DVD-R or Memorex DVD+R DL media.

The half-dozen burns so far play without a hiccup. If I make a substantial number of commercial cuts I may see a tiny bit of lip-synch delay, but I can smooth that out in VRD.

Source material has all been 1080i shows recorded OTA in XP Media Center with an ATI HDTV Wonder.

I do have one question for the guys with more MF5 experience.

Mine is not the plus version, it is a recent install of version 5.0. Auto updates don't seem to work, but I do see downloadable updates on the Web site. The text here
http://www.ulead.com/tech/dmf/dmf_ftp.htm
suggests they would eliminate the 720p patch requirement, enable direct burns and add BD compatibility just like the Plus version.

Has anyone tried these patches to verify?

captain_video

12-12-06, 01:57 PM

The MF5 question about Ulead, as far as I know, doesn't get asked anymore. Take a look at the guide in the VideoRedo section and you'll see the secret key press that makes life so much easier. I'll leave the 1088 questions to the D* folks.
I assume you're refering to the guide at the beginning of this thread since there doesn't seem to be one specifically for VideoReDo that I could find. I also assume you're talking about holding down the Shift key while selecting the Options menu so that one may select "Add GOP Timecode to all GOPs." I was already aware of this but it didn't answer my question. I guess I'll just uninstall VideoReDo and select the Ulead option when I reinstall it.

Alan Gouger

12-12-06, 03:01 PM

I am using the A2. Hopefully someone can post the A2 works as good as the A1.

Someone mentioned duel layer. Are you able to fit a typical full feature on one duel layer. Thanks!!!

bobkart

12-12-06, 03:22 PM

On a dual-layer DVD (8.5GB) at 25Mb/s (HDV bitrate) you'd get as much as 45 minutes of material. Maybe slightly less due to authoring and multiplexing overhead.

So to get 90 minutes on a dual-layer DVD you'd need to drop down to 12.5Mb/s. For 2 hours it'd be 9.375Mb/s, no better than Standard Definition DVD bitrates.

DaveKennett

12-12-06, 03:56 PM

Now here is the issue. I put the disc in the player and it recognized the disc and said HD-DVD on the LCD. It then went to Play, and after a few moments without any on-screen messaging the LCD front panel of the HD-XA1 shows "HDMI Error 1". I find this really strange as all of my HD-DVDs play fine and even if I eject my homemade disc and put a store bought disc in it works and plays fine. The TV recognizes the 1080i input and plays fine.

I'm still using FW 1.4 on the A1 (afraid to change it), and I have had a similar problem.. It does not happen with commercial HD DVDs or homemade discs with no menus. To play a homemade disc with menus, I can switch output to component (even though not hooked up) until after the disc starts playing (or menu comes up), THEN switch back to HDMI. Then everything works until I remove the disc. I use HDMI to DVI cable to older Samsung DLP.

Dave

DaveKennett

12-12-06, 04:08 PM

I am using the A2. Hopefully someone can post the A2 works as good as the A1.

Someone mentioned duel layer. Are you able to fit a typical full feature on one duel layer. Thanks!!!

I'd like to know more about the A2's ability to play homebrews as well.

I have been able to get over two hours on a DL from our local Fox station. most stations use a higher bit rate. Most times I can put a one and a half hour movie (sans commercials) one one SL and one DL.

Dave

captain_video

12-12-06, 04:29 PM

I'd like to know more about the A2's ability to play homebrews as well.

I have been able to get over two hours on a DL from our local Fox station. most stations use a higher bit rate. Most times I can put a one and a half hour movie (sans commercials) one one SL and one DL.

Dave
Check the resolution of the videos. Fox tends to broadcast in 720p as opposed to 1080i like most of the other networks.

bobkart

12-12-06, 04:35 PM

I'd like to know more about the A2's ability to play homebrews as well.
Before I got my A1 I burned some sample/test DVDs and went into a nearby Best Buy and asked if I could try my discs on their A1 demonstrator. They worked, which helped me decide to get the A1.

Clarence

12-12-06, 04:36 PM

I am using the A2. Hopefully someone can post the A2 works as good as the A1.

Someone mentioned duel layer. Are you able to fit a typical full feature on one duel layer. Thanks!!!Alan, PM me an address and I'll send you some clips to test on the A2.

I'd say less than 20% of HD movies are less than 8.5Gb, so the large majority would require multiple DVDs.

-Clarence

captain_video

12-12-06, 07:02 PM

From the test discs I've made using mpegs culled from a HDTivo, I can get about 40-45 minutes on a single layer DVD-5 DVD-R disc. A 2-hour movie would require three discs.

Joseph Clark

12-12-06, 07:44 PM

I am using the A2. Hopefully someone can post the A2 works as good as the A1.

Someone mentioned duel layer. Are you able to fit a typical full feature on one duel layer. Thanks!!!

I picked up an A2 today and will be testing it tonight with some of the red laser HD DVD's I've created. I'll let you know how this works out. As for the movies, 20% sounds about right for entire movies that will fit on one disc, maybe a little lower. Animation features have a pretty good shot at fitting on one DL disc. Of course, 720p compresses better than 1080i and more fits on a disc in general. A lot of stuff I capture (Battlestar Galactica from Universal HD) looks pretty decent with some fairly low bitrates. I can easily get an entire episode of BG on one single layer (with about a gig left over). Low bitrates, of course, are almost certain to give you blocking artifacts with fast motion, but I still prefer it to standard DVD.

Kelendral

12-13-06, 02:04 AM

Just a reply to my own post. My problem stemmed from the fact that for some reason I must not have checked the Xbox compatibility in Nero when burning the UDF DVD. Strange that it would throw and HDMI error for a problem that was clearly not related to HDMI. Further evidence it was not an HDMI error was after I copied all the files from the first DVD to my HD, and then reburned them with the correct XBox compliant setting and the XA1 played the new disc fine.

Thank you all for the good guide and the contributions to it.

Joseph Clark

12-13-06, 03:16 AM

It's late. I just finished watching lots of red laser HD DVD's on the Toshiba A2. Thought I'd do a quick report before going to bed.

1. Happy to report that the A2 seems to have no more problem playing homemade HD DVD's than the A1. I must have tried 30-40 discs and they played just fine. I did have a couple that stuttered, but I'm virtually certain that they were either bad source or bad burn. (I also watched several discs all the way through. Part of that was to test long playback, the other just to enjoy some material in 1080p.)

2. Going through chapter stops seems a little slower.

3. The A2 is a dream compared to the A1: looks, feels and performs pretty much like a regular DVD player. Not much different in speed than my Oppo starting up, shutting down, playing and changing discs. This is reason enough to buy the A2; the A1 is a turtle.

4. The A2 runs very cool. No blisters from touching it while its running. No vents on top, just a few on the sides.

5. 720p HD playback is good and clean, without having to switch manually to 720p mode.

Based on tonight, I don't have a reservation saying the A2 is going to be a great machine for playback of red laser HD DVD's.

bobkart

12-13-06, 03:18 AM

That's great news, thanks for the report JC!

Brajesh

12-13-06, 09:37 AM

Joe, did you have any high bitrate HD DVDs you tested, say 18-25+ mbps? I may have to re-author some discs I'm getting stutter with on the A2 but not the A1. Wish I'd saved all my original TS files.

Joseph Clark

12-13-06, 09:49 AM

Joe, did you have any high bitrate HD DVDs you tested, say 18-25+ mbps? I may have to re-author some discs I'm getting stutter with on the A2 but not the A1. Wish I'd saved all my original TS files.

My HDV footage played back smoothly (25mbps), except for an interlacing problem (field jitter). No dropped frames or skipping audio. I'll address the field jitter problem when I get all the gear hooked back up to the new 1080p projector.

R_Willis

12-13-06, 10:11 AM

Could someone that is pretty well versed in this HD DVD authoring contact me via personal message.

It involves a 720p program, if that matters.

I have a favor to ask. Thanks! :)

ecrabb

12-13-06, 10:43 AM

Wow, I'm amazed anybody is having so much trouble. I've made a dozen or so discs from OTA (MyHD) and HD DirecTivo. I haven't made a single coaster and all have worked perfectly in both an A1 and a 360 add-on drive.

Some are single-layer, some double-layer, some edited with VideoReDo and some not. I've done everything as in the guide, but am burning the DVDs on Roxio Toast Mac (I don't have a dual-layer burner or burner software for Windows right now.)

As for the size of the movies... I can comment on DirecTV stuff. A lot of 1-hr long HDNet-type stuff (Bikini Destinations for instance) is just over the size of a single-layer DVD-R (of course :rolleyes: ). Batman Begins on the other hand was about 12 gigs so would take a couple of dual-layers. But, shorter movies like Madagascar and Red Eye are both a little smaller than a dual-layer disc (say, 6 or 6.5 gigs). So, there is a benefit of DirecTV's lower bitrate! ;)

SC

talbain

12-13-06, 12:33 PM

ok based on the feedback i'd say my problems are definitely with the source material then. does anyone have any experience burning the demo loops from pioneer, panasonic, sony, jvc, philips, samsung, etc? i can list the specific titles if you'd like, but the problems videoredo reports for just about all of them are:

pts underflows
input sequence errors
audio frame, video resync
audio resync frames removed

if any one of these problems pop up, the disc will be toast when burned. any way to fix any of these? what do they mean?

also, some of the demos are 1088. i run them through hd patch using the Fix 1088 preset, but movie factory still insists on trying to convert the file, which i haven't let it do yet.

i have 13 demo loops (not counting the 38 mbps one), and out of the 13, 3 report no errors and are tagged properly as 1080. these three will burn and play flawlessly. the other 10 files either have one or more of the videoredo errors above or have the 1088 problem, either of which means another coaster added to the pile.

replayrob

12-13-06, 01:26 PM

I'll throw my hat in the ring....
My setup:
Toshiba HD-A2
Win XP-Pro
VideoRedo- current version w/GOP...=true option set
DVD Movie Factory 5 TBYB downloaded this week
Nero 6 full (not oem) current version w/updates
Verbatim brand 16X DVD's & Verbatim 4X DL DVD+R

720p content- needed to patch with HDpatch to prevent DVDMF5 from re-encoding. Burned (at 8X) to single layer Verbatim DVD+R... with Nero6- noticed some early stuttering within the first 5 min of the program. A quick hit on the A2's pause button, then resume fixed the problem. No issues after the first 5 min of the program.
Burned the same program (actually just saved the original rendered files to the hard drive) again using Nero6, but this time used Verbatim DVD-R.... (burned at 8X) now no stuttering at all. Looks like the A2 likes the Verbatim -R's better than +R's. Also recorded Polar Express last week on ABC-HD @ 720p- burned (at 4X speed) it to a Verbatim DVD+R DL 8.5 GB disc and playback was fine.

1080i content- I had a longer program (Rudolph from CBS-HD last Friday), so I used the Verbatim DVD+R DL 8.5 GB discs again (burned @ 4X speed). Same hardware/software as above, didn't need to patch the file. Unfortunately... lots of stuttering upon playback in the A2. Disc is pretty much unwatchable :(

Has anyone tried playing back a raw mpeg 2 HD file just burned to a UDF structure DVD on the A2?

Kelendral

12-13-06, 05:26 PM

texmex

12-13-06, 06:25 PM

I was wondering if anyone had any more success using the methods outlined here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146&page=12&pp=60&highlight=wmv ) for playing wmv, vc1, mp4, or other format files. It was like a hot topic for a few minutes and then died. It'd be sweet to fit some better compressed stuff instead of Mpeg2 on SD discs in HD quality.

I spent some time playing around with that method but wasn't able to author a working disc. I'm planning to revisit this in the near future - just too busy working on other projects at the moment. FYI - the key to this method is the "packaging" of the video. Technically, I think we need "elementary streams" to make it work, and there isn't an encoder that outputs elementary streams at the moment (VC1 or AVC).

WiFi-Spy

12-13-06, 06:43 PM

I spent some time playing around with that method but wasn't able to author a working disc. I'm planning to revisit this in the near future - just too busy working on other projects at the moment. FYI - the key to this method is the "packaging" of the video. Technically, I think we need "elementary streams" to make it work, and there isn't an encoder that outputs elementary streams at the moment (VC1 or AVC).

cant we demux the program stream?

paintit77

12-13-06, 09:15 PM

[QUOTE=Joseph Clark] This is reason enough to buy the A2; the A1 is a turtle.

QUOTE]

LOL!!!! :D

paintit77

12-13-06, 09:19 PM

I am still laughing! :D

Brajesh

12-13-06, 09:34 PM

WiFi-Spy

12-14-06, 06:16 AM

Maybe so, but I never had any issues w/any of my homemade HD DVDs on the A1. I've tested two dozen or so of my discs in the last few days & I'm definitely getting stuttering picture/audio in movies w/bitrates of 17-18mbps or higher. My A2 is the December 2006 build. Guess I should pick up another unit at Best Buy & see what happens. All the newer hi-def captures I have are 14mbps or lower, which play fine.

could this be why the xbox360 drive is also having the same issues? maybe its the drive itself. Since red laser HD DVDs have to spin @ 3x the speed of regular DVDs and Blue laser HD DVDs maybe thats the issue?

pteittinen

12-14-06, 06:20 AM

could this be why the xbox360 drive is also having the same issues? maybe its the drive itself. Since red laser HD DVDs have to spin @ 3x the speed of regular DVDs and Blue laser HD DVDs maybe thats the issue?
No. I debunked that already; it's not the drive. It works perfectly on a PC, and reads red laser HD DVDs without any stuttering. Same red laser discs stutter when the drive is connected to Xbox 360. It's not the drive, it's the software.

Brajesh

12-14-06, 10:07 AM

chap

12-14-06, 11:52 AM

I came to the bitrate conclusion myself and I'm testing the theory as I write this. It didnt' make sense to me that I could get stuff recorded from tv to work, but stuff I shot myself I couldn't. Till I looked at the stuff that was recorded from tv and realzied the bitrate was only around 13mbs and the stuff I shot was at 25.

Just tested it and so far no dice. I lowered my bitrate down to an average of 15mbs with a max of 18.9. It did the same thing it did before. Black screen.

Edit: I changed the audio to AC3 instead of MPG audio or PCM and it worked. Apparently the xbox has an issue with the other 2 audio formats.

replayrob

12-14-06, 01:08 PM

replayrob

12-14-06, 01:20 PM

I'm going to give this tool (http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=231) a try to lower the bitrate & see if that does the trick. I still find it hard to understand how you can lower the bitrate w/o re-encoding though.
It looks like restream is only patching the values- like HDpatch.
In addition- from "Hints & Restrictions" portion of the readme: - This program only works with MPEG2 elementary video-streams. If you've got a system-stream (e.g. a multiplexed file) demultiplex first."
So anything with audio has to be demux'd, patched, then remux'd.

ReStream v0.9.0
Info:
======
With this tool you can change many options of a MPEG2 Elementary Stream
without re-encoding. You can change options like the Sequence Header,
matrices, tff-flags, User Data, GOP-flags, pan-scan-info ...

Intention:
===========
- change/insert/strip/save manual matrices. This is to fix faulty streams
wich lack of the correct matrices. (e.g. from bad demultiplexors or from
a patched CCEv2.50)
- correct top-field-first flags
- change aspect-ratio or framerate
- change the nominal bitrate (needed for some authoring-programs)
- disguise a stream to improve compatibility with some authoring-programs
- add/change/user User Data from the stream
- remove sequence-end-codes from the stream
- add/change/remove Sequence Display Extensions (e.g. for pan-scan info)
- correct/change GOP-info, like the GOP-timecode
- correct some other parts of a stream
- cut a stream at a specific sequence header

Hints & Restrictions:
======================
- This program only works with MPEG2 elementary video-streams. If you've got
a system-stream (e.g. a multiplexed file) demultiplex first.
- The program only rewrites values you change.
- If you want to add/change matrices, you should have also encoded your file
with the specific matrices. If you don't, you'll most likely destroy proper
decoding of your video-file.

Brajesh

12-14-06, 01:42 PM

It also explains why 2.4x DVD DL stutter whereas 8x Verbatims DLs seem to work flawlessly.
My 2.4x Verbatims do stutter w/high bitrate material. The 2.4x Verbatims burn at 8x on my NEC DVD writer, but I guess you mean true 8x certified Verbatims. These are write rates though, but perhaps the 2.4x DLs can't spin as fast as the 8x when being read.

replayrob

12-14-06, 02:08 PM

My 2.4x Verbatims do stutter w/high bitrate material.
Mine too.
Mine say 2.4X- up to 8X on the wrapper. I've even tried burning them @ 2.4X in case it was a burner issue... but still stuttering problems near the root with 1080i high bitrate content.
http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/7642/7642562_sa.jpg

Brajesh

12-14-06, 02:46 PM

pteittinen

12-14-06, 02:48 PM

These are write rates though, but perhaps the 2.4x DLs can't spin as fast as the 8x when being read.
Specced write speed has nothing to do with the read speed. You can read a 2.4x disc at very high speeds (such as 12-16x), provided the burn was good quality (i.e. low amount of errors) and the reading drive has good error correction. Use a lousy burner, bad media and/or burn at overspeed, and you get a bad burn with plenty of errors.

replayrob

12-14-06, 04:58 PM

I'll pick the 8-10x certified Verbatim & another HD-A2 player on my way home tonight. Will try the discs first, then the player if necessary. Gotta get to the root of this issue :)

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US/images/products/8007/8007015_sa.jpg
I haven't seen these yet at my local retailers. They only have the 2.4X-8X DL's on the shelf.
I'd love to hear your results with the newer media...

RTK

12-14-06, 07:20 PM

bullgates

12-14-06, 07:30 PM

RTK

12-14-06, 07:53 PM

Yes. I'll have to check on the amount of minutes but I think it is ~30mins per SL DVD.

Thanks. With null packets stripped I would think a SL-DVD would hold more than 30min but I'd defer to your real world experience. FWIW, I have a ~98min null packet stripped recording that is ~7.6GB. I was thinking this would mean it could be converted to files appropriate for an HD-DVD recording although I didn't know if HD-DVD discs could be authored with a null packet stripped tranport stream files(s) as the source.

bullgates

12-14-06, 08:05 PM

The file I just checked has a avg bitrate of 25 Mbps (according to VideoRedo and Ulead5) and it is 34 minutes. I'm sure lower bit rates will allow more minutes.

I guess I should mention that I have also read about people putting an entire hr long episode per disc. Commericals removed. So that should be around 42-44 minutes.

captain_video

12-14-06, 08:38 PM

You can change the bitrates by running them through VideoReDo and remuxing them. When you select the Save As option, the window that opens up has an Options button. Selecting the Options will open another window where you can specify the bitrate. Set it to what you want and it will become the default setting.

bullgates

12-14-06, 09:12 PM

Good info. I'm fine with bit rates where they are though. Does that take time to encode when you decrease the bit rate?

Joseph Clark

12-15-06, 03:13 AM

can an HD-DVD be created using null packet stripped transport stream files? If so, about how many minutes of a 1080i recording are you able to record to a DVD-DL disc? From what I can guess, it should be ~ 100 minutes.

That's exactly what VideoRedo and MPEG2VCR do - if the .ts files have nulls, the programs strip them when they convert the video to mpeg. When broadcast HD comes over the air, it doesn't have nulls typically. Hardware like MyHD and the R5000 mod add nulls (if you tell them to) in order to make the .ts files more compatible with certain hardware and software players. The number of minutes you can fit on a disc is dependent on the bitrate. That's why some feature films can be put on one DL disc.

replayrob

12-15-06, 10:03 AM

In the case of the A2, it maybe it's a combination of high bitrate material and DVD media type causing stutter issues.

Did some more testing last night with my A2....

720p bitrate material @ 10Mbps or lower:
720p material from Fox and ABC played back fine on DVD-r's
720p material from Fox and ABC had stuttering playback near media root on DVD+r's

1080i bitrate material 17 @ Mbps or higher:
1080i material from CBS had stuttering playback on DVD+r's untill about 1/3 into disc, playback good after that.
Haven't tried 1080i on DVD-r yet due to busy schedule, but will test tonight.

Did some follow up trials last night with 1080i on DVD-r media:
Burned 35 min of 1080i (average bitrate reported by VideoRedo and MPEG2VCR = 17.5 Mbps) content from CBS’s recent HD airing of “Rudolph” to a Verbatim 16X DVD-r, resulting DVD played back perfectly on the A2- no stuttering issues at all- 100% perfect playback.
This exact same 1080i content sample when burned to a Verbatim 16X DVD+r results in stuttering through at least the first one third of the DVD.

Conclusion: Burn only to DVD-r rather than DVD+r for flawless playback on the HD A2 of 720p and 1080i content captured form network TV with highest tested bitrate of 18.5 Mbps . I’m going to avoid burning to +r DVD’s because even 9.7 Mbps bitrate 720p content had some minor stuttering issues near the disc root hub area.
The jury’s still out on the Verbatim 8X-10X DL DVD+r’s until more results are in. But it’s clear the old stock 2.4X-8X Verbatim DL DVD+r disc’s are not suited to 720p or 1080i content playback on the HD A2.

I’m going to use my remaining stash of 2.4X 8.5GB DL DVD+r’s to archive off Mpeg2 HD content from my HTPC’s hard drive that won’t fit onto a single layer DVD-r till real 15/30GB HD-DVD-r is available.

mrwilson

12-15-06, 10:11 AM

I've never seen stuttering with Verbatim DVD+R DL. But I'm only burning at 4x, on purpose, and playing on an A1.

bullgates

12-15-06, 10:59 AM

I burn at 4x also and never have seen any stuttering.

replayrob

12-15-06, 11:36 AM

My posts are regarding the HD A2 and stuttering issues, from what I've read- the A1 doesn't really have these problems.
Don't know if it's a issue with the media code table in the A2's HD-DVD drive or it's based on the reflectivity difference between -r and +r DVD's that's causing the stuttering problem.. or it's the player's firmware?
In any case, lets hope a firmware update is in the works that will address this issue. We know Toshiba has the ability to update not only the player's firmware, but the actual HD-DVD drive's firmware too. :D

Brajesh

12-15-06, 11:55 AM

The jury’s still out on the Verbatim 8X-10X DL DVD+r’s until more results are in. But it’s clear the old stock 2.4X-8X Verbatim DL DVD+r disc’s are not suited to 720p or 1080i content playback on the HD A2.
I made a copy of an 18mbps Verbatim 2.4x DL +R onto a true 8x Verbatim DL +R. Stuttering remains. My NEC 3550 burner allows me to burn Verbatim 2.4x DL +R at upto 8x, but I've always done it at 4x or even 2.4x. Stuttering is still there. I'll try SL -Rs as replayrob suggests & see if the A2 can play high bitrate stuff smoothly. Hard to find -R DLs though.

My local Best Buy didn't have any A2's, so I couldn't verify if this issue varies between units. I'm guessing not. Now I wish I had not sold my A1. I'm conviced the issues some of us are having is definitely bitrate related & the fact that the A1, turtle or not, behaves more like a computer, which is a good thing for officially unsupported red-laser HD DVDs.

replayrob

12-15-06, 04:55 PM

Hard to find -R DLs though.
I don't think there are any.
That's why I'm just going to burn my large (over 4.3GB) HD files to the +r DL disks as plain Mpeg2 data and keep em in a safe place till true HD-DVD burning becomes a reality. I've wasted too many $$ on the DL discs already.

Thanks for your research Brajesh :D

Brajesh

12-15-06, 04:56 PM

Did another test. Took a 19+ and a 25 mbps file, changed the bitrate headers to 18mbps for each, burned separate DL DVD+Rs. No dice. Stuttering remains. I see only two options for me: Get a decent MPG re-encoding software. Can anyone suggest a good one? ...or, re-buy an A1 or XA1. Third option may be to forget authoring HD DVDs until real HD DVD burners & media arrive, instead saving TS files on DVD blanks & use a Snazio or similar DVD player to watch them.

chap

12-15-06, 05:17 PM

Ollie W. Holmes

12-16-06, 01:35 AM

I just tried Studio 10.7 with HD DVD authoring. It burned the disc ok but I won't play in my 360 HD DVD drive. I get an error code - C667000A. Anyone know what that means?

Not really, but I get the same thing. I encoded the video at the highest bit rate, burned to dvd+r, and used dolby 2.0 audio encoding.

Apparently, Microsoft and/or Pinnacle are working on the problem. See webboard.pinnaclesys.com and go through the Studio 10 forum. Ulead does not have the same problem, supposedly, so once someone does a hex dump analysis of the differences between the two approaches, we'll have a solution.

Joseph Clark

12-16-06, 02:41 AM

I think the only way to eliminate the stutering is going ot be padding the inner ring for the first few hundred megs. Maybe doing a multisession disk instead of a single session? I'm going to play with that later.

In Nero 7, for this to work, you have to check "No Multisession."

I have to retract a little on the stuttering issue. My subsequent attempts to play a one or two of the same discs yielded some stuttering where there was none that first day I got the A2. Still not having the level of problems some are, but it does appear to be an issue for me. These discs never stuttered at all on the A1.

chap

12-16-06, 07:32 AM

In Nero 7, for this to work, you have to check "No Multisession."

I have to retract a little on the stuttering issue. My subsequent attempts to play a one or two of the same discs yielded some stuttering where there was none that first day I got the A2. Still not having the level of problems some are, but it does appear to be an issue for me. These discs never stuttered at all on the A1.

Yeah I played with that and failed. Padding will defintiely solve it, but its a matter of somehow getting it to burn a large file before it burns the HDDVD_TS folder. Perhaps just putting in a large 200-400 mb file in the root directory with an _ in front of it might help. I dont' know how Nero chooses its files it burns to disk. I'm going to try to research that today.

Brajesh

12-16-06, 08:15 AM

All this is making me long for real HD DVD burners & media. Blu-ray is ahead of the game here. Hopefully, we'll see some burning options within 1st QTR of '07.

chap

12-16-06, 11:56 AM

All this is making me long for real HD DVD burners & media. Blu-ray is ahead of the game here. Hopefully, we'll see some burning options within 1st QTR of '07.

True, but you would have to pay 700 for a burner and 20 for a disk, where chances are you already have a dvd burner and around a quarter a disk. its just a matter of figuring it out.

curtis104

12-16-06, 01:56 PM

I just wanted to report my first shot at creating a HD DVD and playing it on my Xbox 360 addon was successful. I d/l Batman.Begins_h264-mp2_1080p_dd5.1_448K (I don't know if it is okay to say that, but just being honest :D ) and burned the first 35 minutes to a DVD-R (HP disc 16x). Auto created 11 chapters at 3 minute interval. The disc played very well w/out any stuttering or lip sync issues. The only problem I seen was at the beginning of some chapters I would get some weird pixelation for a few seconds and then would play perfect again.

Just thrilled to know I have a better way of archiving my HD shows. In the past I would burn 40 to 45 .ts files on a DVD-R. Although it is a process to do this, it really was not that painful.

chap

12-16-06, 11:34 PM

I just did a test by trying to pad a disk with 400 megs and it seemed to help quite a bit. There was a little jitter for the first second or 2, but after that it was perfect. Perhaps tomorrow I will try 5-600 megs adn see if that works better.

captain_video

12-16-06, 11:42 PM

I just received my Toshiba HD-A2 yesterday and tried my first couple of discs created using this giude and they all worked perfectly. I tried shows recorded from TNT-HD and HBO-HD initially that were recorded on my HDTivo. I transferred them to my PC and then muxed them to mpeg2 files, edited them with VideoReDo, patched them with HDPatcher and authored them in DVD Movie Factory 5. The whole process is simple and painless, although the time to extract the files, mux them, and then edit and remux tends to be somewhat time consuming. It's also a good thing that I have tones of available hard drive space because it will eat it up in a hurry.

Carlton Bale

12-18-06, 09:40 AM

It looks like some people are having troubles with high bit-rates and/or large files sizes. I've seen no details on re-compressing the files to solve this. What codec is being used for most of these DVDs? Is it standard MPEG -2 or does one of the programs re-compress it to something else?

I'm wondering if the software and the Toshiba drive can handle files re-compressed to x264. It will take time to re-encode, but the results should look identical (if re-compressed correctly) and the files and bit-rates will both be lower. I'd like to archive to my media server and save the files as x264; thought it might be useful for those saving to DVD as well.

chap

12-18-06, 10:24 AM

currently it has to be mpeg 2 because the only software that we have that makes HD-DVD only supports mpeg2. Its not liek we are just putting a file on the disk as a .mpg. Its similar to the difference between .vob and .mpg. They are almost interchangable but not quite.

Edit: actually thats not completely true. Scenarist should support it, but its a very expensive product.

replayrob

12-18-06, 11:17 AM

FYI: Both Best Buy and Office Max have the 50 sleeve of the 4.7GB Verbatim DVD-r (which are good for short content 720P & 1080i burns on the A2) for $12.99 this week. Just picked up two sleeves on the way in to work this morning :D

erg0010

12-18-06, 11:08 PM

Well, I thought I did everything right. I bought a new HDR-HC3 for our Thailand vacation and while there took about 4 hours' video. I bought Nero 7 thinking I could transfer the HD video tape to DVD to view on our new Toshiba HD-A2. Didn't get to first base. My PC will not see the HC3 no matter what I do. I tried two different firewire cards, and two different cables with the same result. XP sees the card, just not the camera connected to it. It isn't the camera or the cable, because my laptop sees the HC3 when I plug into it. The laptop doesn't have the horsepower to capture smoothly.

Any ideas on how to make my desktop find my HC3?? Thanks for any help.
Gene

Joseph Clark

12-18-06, 11:25 PM

RTK

12-19-06, 12:54 AM

Brajesh

12-19-06, 04:07 PM

I get both via Dish. TNT's bitrate is usually a little better than HBO's. I can fit 1:15 to 1:25 of TNT on a DL disc & 1:20-1:40 of HBO on a DL disc.

lazyn00b

12-19-06, 07:07 PM

Yesterday I installed both these Cyberlink softwares to see if I could author a compliant HD DVD. Big mistake! One or both of these programs totally hosed my HTPC. My SPDIF output ceased to function until I reinstalled the sound drivers, and VMR9 video rendering from WMP 11 has totally screwy colors until I reinstalled the Nvidia video drivers. It's going to be a while before I am brave enough to install any Cyberlink software again. :(

On the plus side, PowerProducer 4 was able to author an HD DVD from some MPEG-2 content... and it did not appear to be re-encoding! My only proof, however, is that the process only took about a minute for 3 minutes of video, so I guess it could still be a recode if their MPEG-2 encoder is really, really fast. I must say I thought that the interface was very clean and intuitive, a bit better than Ulead's Movie Factory.

More bad news, though: the BD authoring functionality in PowerProducer 4 was totally, uh, non-functional.