The new Titan 1080p-500 (http://www.digitalprojection.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=54&Itemid=57) seems to be interesting if you need a high lumens projector.

It offers 6000 lumens, but the CR is only 2000:1.

2000:1 CR seems to be the norm with current high brightness projectors, like the Christie HD5K and the Sony 4K.

The Titan uses UHP lamps, although DPI claims a Xenon mode for them that makes it very close to real Xenon lamp.

I wonder if anybody knows if this claim is true, and what will be the pricing?

I just wish we could see say 1000- 2000 lumens and 5000:1 to 10,000:1. I may end up retubing my CRTs which I never thought would happen.

I wonder if someone like Darin could custom modify one of these to get better sequential CR ?

Art

I just wish we could see say 1000- 2000 lumens and 5000:1 to 10,000:1. I may end up retubing my CRTs which I never thought would happen.

I wonder if someone like Darin could custom modify one of these to get better sequential CR ?


The 1080p-250 offers 2000 Lumens and 5000:1 CR. That seems close to what you need.

This projector was not portraying anything close to 2k-1 cr in it's debut, sure the light levels in the room were elevated, but the projector clearly needed work.

I have more expectations for the single bulb unit, and the eventual introduction of a single lamp xenon 1-000-1500 watt cermax. These later units will have brightness in spades to modify. In fact they will build this to spec.

Part of the problem with the dual lamp units is that the physical gap necessary for the two intersecting light paths to traverse, cannot be effectively clamped down for high contrast mod. (where you throw away 2/3d's of the light).SEE PIC.

In the picture you will see what separates the digital projection UHP bulb from the rest of the pack (SIM/Panny), these filters clip off the excess blue and green peaks to help emulate xenon, when calibrated.

You have to be careful with the CR specs. It’s usually at native and not D65. If it’s 2000:1 at native, it’s usually 1500:1 at D65.

WHile I agree with the CR specs, DPI has been very honest with their quotes as it relates to their Mercury line, which has now been moved into the Titan chassis. For example, they rate their Mercury/Titan HD as 1500 lumens or more with 4,000:1 or greater while calibrated to D6500K, (+/-500K). All those numbers are minimums and are generally exceeded by a decent margin.

Yes DPI comes closer than chirstie or barco to d65 out of the box.

i talk with dpi today and they told me that
the first units will be out late september or beginning october.

also i ask them if they can may tune the bright one to have a better cr. and
they told me that because they know me (i have a 1280x1024 3 chip dlp from them)
they will do it and guess that this unit may will have 3500:1 cr. and 3500 ansi.

this in not a officially product but if more people like it it will be helpful.

i think the difference from the possible 4500-5000:1 to "only" 3500:1 is not as big
as more light at the screen.
so if i will replace my qualia thats may a good compromise "if"
the false contour bug from dlp is not to bad.

i talk with dpi today and they told me that
the first units will be out late september or beginning october.

also i ask them if they can may tune the bright one to have a better cr. and
they told me that because they know me (i have a 1280x1024 3 chip dlp from them)
they will do it and guess that this unit may will have 3500:1 cr. and 3500 ansi.

this in not a officially product but if more people like it it will be helpful.

i think the difference from the possible 4500-5000:1 to "only" 3500:1 is not as big
as more light at the screen.
so if i will replace my qualia thats may a good compromise "if"
the false contour bug from dlp is not to bad.

So I wonder if they could mod it to do 7500:1 sequential CR and 1000 ANSI lumens.Wolfgang since you are pulling strings could you ask them for me ?

Art

Not without an autoiris. Remember that the initial plate iris can only be so small because of the dual lamps (picture above).

I agree with wolfgang that 3500>1 contrast is good enough for calibrated 3200 lumens, I just think it's going to be difficult to attain due to the complex light path.

Darin Perrigo did some custom mods on digitals obtaining 10,000:1 without a DI. It resulted in only 4 fL but he started out with only about 1000 lumens or less to work with.

Art

art

yes i will ask but i think cineramax say it right.
i don't think that is a big step in picture quality.

one good thing is that dpi are very reliable on spec.numbers.
when i got my blacklight from them few years ago all the numbers. cr. and light out are
a lot more(cr. if i remember it right was 10% more and light out was 25% more)
than the spec. say.
but we have to find out as odysee say if the no. are at d65.

Well having sat and looked critically at several digital PJs with sequential CR around 2000:1 , I'd personally like a lot more if it is feasable. If I can throw 10 to 16fL and the highest seqential possible that would be my personal goal. My screen would be no more than 15' wide.

Art

Well having sat and looked critically at several digital PJs with sequential CR around 2000:1 , I'd personally like a lot more if it is feasable. If I can throw 10 to 16fL and the highest seqential possible that would be my personal goal. My screen would be no more than 15' wide.

Art


As robena suggested, you should get detailed information about the 1080p250. If the 5000:1 CR spec is at D65, and very tightly D65 and not 6500 CCT +/- 500, you are close to what you are looking for. You should also think higher than 10fL for the low end of your luminance range, and for the entire life of the lamp. The current DCI spec for digital cinema white is 14fL.

Yes, certainly 5000:1 is a relatively nice number. I'm hoping DPI will have decent demo set ups this year at CEDIA if not perhaps I could arrange a demo here.

Art

I am sure the titan hd 250 will be smokin at cedia.

3000 - 5000 to 1? Ummm, I sincerely disagree. If you tell me the TI demo at Infocomm was 5000 to 1, then I would change my mind. Since they were claiming 20k to 1, I considered that in the range of acceptable.

Ericglo

That was a hyped 20k to 1. More like 13k>1. And there were breathing artifacts and restricted 16m color colorimetry, not so with 3 chippers.

Are we still a way out gentlemen ? I watched Aeon Flux tonight on HDDVD. There were some night scenes which will now be part of my demo series at my meet next weekend.

By the way this is now my top shelf HD. :)

Art

Art S.
Either you get DPI TITAN 1080p-250 and you get the lumen but not the contrast or you get Zorro but not the lumen.
http://www.seos.com/Black

Since Zorro is too few lumen I guess you have to look into future 3DLP projectors with an auto-iris. Before the chorus complainng about auto-iris start to sing I would like to say that you can turn it off.

Will we see high contrast 3DLP with auto-iris implementations? I do not count Panasonic´s offering due to the low native contrast.

the new sharp will be may the first dlp with di.

to get the 12000:1 there is no other way at the moment.

Wolfgang,
Really, you have a unique problem on this forum with your very nice screen size. With me I'd need a lot less light so letting go of more than half of the lumens might be an option. Anyway ,it looks like the next year will be fun. :)

Peter,
I don't doubt they will have a display but, if it's anything like they did last year, it would be useless for knowing much about the devices capabilities.

Art

These DPI models have HD-SDI input capability and that’s important. They have DVI and not HDMI inputs and that almost always causes problems with incorrect colorspace, forced RGB instead of YCbCr, etc. HD-SDI gets around all of that and many consumer HD sources can be modified for HD-SDI output, including the HD satellite receivers launched in Europe.

Has anyone modified the A1 for HDSDI yet ?

Art

Ask LJG.

Has anyone modded the Dish 622 for the hd-sdi?

Art,

To have a chance of approaching your CR goal and use of a 15’ wide screen, you will need a single lamp design with at least 4000:1 CR at D65 and at least 6000 lumens.

You should also be aware that the low end gamma processing is very important in how low APL images look and an optimized curve will make many previously unacceptable images look good. Also, it’s unlikely that the manufacturer will demonstrate a unit using such a curve. I am still working on this, using mostly other people’s work, and can’t tell you yet what the best curve is. So far, I like S shaped curves best, but there are a lot of possible curves to look at with 4096 points available. The gamma processing is also at 12 bits, which is one of the reasons why my projector, as most current high end DLP designs, don’t have Wolfgang’s DLP “bugs.”

Art S.
Either you get DPI TITAN 1080p-250 and you get the lumen but not the contrast or you get Zorro but not the lumen.
http://www.seos.com/Black

Since Zorro is too few lumen I guess you have to look into future 3DLP projectors with an auto-iris. Before the chorus complainng about auto-iris start to sing I would like to say that you can turn it off.

Will we see high contrast 3DLP with auto-iris implementations? I do not count Panasonic´s offering due to the low native contrast.


Yeah the Zorro is M Haffners PJ alright.

Before you start calling the critics "the chorus" you need to phisically see and experience the breathing artifacts. No matter how you slice it, DI is a gimmick that calls attention to itelf as frequent (or more) than the problem it is trying to solve.

The image brightness was being randomly suffocated in the Superman clip segment of the last TI Dynamic Black demo. The crushed dynamics reduced the already meager 16 million color pallete in the same way a cheap movie theater does when they are stretching the last hour of the lamp. This severely restricted my enjoyment of this otherwise near-perfect single chip presentation.

3dlp with autoiris IS COMING, no doubt, but only after Dynamic black has been succesfully launched on single chippers so you are looking at 2008.

Really, you have a unique problem on this forum with your very nice screen size.

no art i have no problem with it i enjoy it :) :) :)

all pr. so far you have to make a compromise.

its all about how important several things are like cr. color light out and..........

people rate it different.
i was fine till today with my qualia. i like more cr. yes no question
i like more light no questions but i like also my very large screen and i can not found a replacement for the qualia so far as you have not found a new pr.

may that change with the upcoming 3 chip dlps.
lets see i will get one of the very early ones for a test as also a other 3 chip dlp.

Wolfgang:

Sell all of your projectors and buy an Flm hd 14 (http://www.barco.com/projection_systems/downloads/DS_FLM_HD_series_june06+.pdf). You will be smiling and crying as to how beautiful the image is. That is the perfect 1080p projector right now.

It comes with stock 2,300>1 contrast (irised lens), then you change the projector plate and you should be over 3,600 scr/3,600 al @ d-65. The lens is superb. This thing KILLED THE CHRISTIE 1080p (sheissen).

Otherwise wait for the Titan with single high power bulb, Next Summer.

If your screen is 21 feet wide, that is 188 square feet 57.3 square meters.

3600 al /188=19 Foot Lamberts. You should want to have 20-21 FL as a goal, you can lower the lamp intensity to 16-14 if you want to.

Art,

To have a chance of approaching your CR goal and use of a 15’ wide screen, you will need a single lamp design with at least 4000:1 CR at D65 and at least 6000 lumens.

You should also be aware that the low end gamma processing is very important in how low APL images look and an optimized curve will make many previously unacceptable images look good. Also, it’s unlikely that the manufacturer will demonstrate a unit using such a curve. I am still working on this, using mostly other people’s work, and can’t tell you yet what the best curve is. So far, I like S shaped curves best, but there are a lot of possible curves to look at with 4096 points available. The gamma processing is also at 12 bits, which is one of the reasons why my projector, as most current high end DLP designs, don’t have Wolfgang’s DLP “bugs.”
odyssey, what is your projector?

odyssey, what is your projector?

It's a Barco DP100.

Thanks.

cineramax

i think the unit have no hdcp or?

You are correct, but because it has input card modularity... that situation is solvable.

Christie, DPI, have hdcp in that projector range, Barco has to be competitive. Talk to them, it's not like this is a Digital Cinema piece, it doesn't have same colorspace, this is a high end comercial piece hdcp is expected in that market. But the image looks nearly identical to Odissey's PJ.

I can't think of anything better (as much as I love DPI) for your room, it is cutting edge technology.

I have the DP100 because that and the Christie version were the only choices for 2K 3 DMD DLP 2½ years ago. Although it has great features and performance, there is nothing in the DP100 that would yield meaningfully better results with 8 bit/4:2:0/limited color gamut consumer video compared to the new high end 3 1920x1080 DMD based designs.

HDCP is a good thing to have, but I would not reject a projector only because it lacks it. There are so many ways around HDCP now, and some of them are very robust. I stopped worrying about it.

i am still worry about hdcp.
you can not be 100% sure about it.

if i can get a hd dvd player a bd player and a set top box all modify. with hd sdi out i am
fine and will not think to much about hd cp anymore.

but then i may still prefer the sony 4k because i use my pr. many times
as a side pr. and show home pictures with it.
the 4 times more resolution is there the big plus.
with the new dvi inputcards and the convergenzsoftware the sony 4 k is better than ever.

lets see i will first try the new 1920x1080 dlp pr. and compare ti to my qualia and then
i will also try again the sony 4k.
then i will make a decision if i purchase a new pr. or not.

the hunt for the best picture will be never over. :) :) :)

if i can get a hd dvd player a bd player and a set top box all modify. with hd sdi out i am

The problem with this is while this can be done for the current first generation units, it's likely not possible for the Pioneer and Sony BD and second generation HD-DVD. The benefits of HDMI 1.3 audio may not be available, although p24 output looks possible.

but then i may still prefer the sony 4k because i use my pr. many times
as a side pr. and show home pictures with it.


I did see great white field uniformity and excellent convergence in the last srx-r110 presentation. My problem is twofold:

A) There is much lower MTF on this projector than the 3dlp, making for a soft looking high resolution image.

B) The color gets out of whack, it turns light greens in images like this:

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/Entomology/ythfacts/resourc/weebst/wb10/mantid2.jpg
... into these colors:

http://www.davidyoon.com/blog/photodiary/04-09-2004/PICT0002.JPG

http://www.roadtech.com/img/vest_OK_LV.jpg

My eye rejects this very violently. I am sure the projector has been calibrated to the hilt and still exibits this problem.

the 4k sony i had for a test one week have the best color i ever saw.

the guy from cine4home was one day there and he not do anything because
the color was so good.

the green picture you post seams that something was wrong with the pr.
thats not what i saw during the week i had the sony 4k.

but in general the dlp system "can" have better color than lcos.


The problem with this is while this can be done for the current first generation units, it's likely not possible for the Pioneer and Sony BD and second generation HD-DVD. The benefits of HDMI 1.3 audio may not be available, although p24 output looks possible.

yes thats true.
as i post its a risk purchasing a pr. without hdcp.
but at least for high color band width the sony 4k is prepared.

There should be no inherent color accuracy or gamut difference between DLP and LCOS (SXRD). It’s a function of the filters, conversion matrixes, gamma curves, calibration system, etc. Three chip DLP color has been better because these factors have been better implemented.

odyssey, you are right of course, but good luck convincing Cineramax of that :)

I did see great white field uniformity and excellent convergence in the last srx-r110 presentation. My problem is twofold:

A) There is much lower MTF on this projector than the 3dlp, making for a soft looking high resolution image.



I have been beating this to death lately. I think the MTF of LCOS and CRT are roughly equal. I know a VDC Marquee 9500 has a MTF of 35 with a res of 2048x1536@60. I would love to see what the figure is for LCOS and DLP. I am almost positive that DLP is much higher than both DLP and LCOS.

Ericglo

I have been beating this to death lately. I think the MTF of LCOS and CRT are roughly equal. I know a VDC Marquee 9500 has a MTF of 35 with a res of 2048x1536@60. I would love to see what the figure is for LCOS and DLP. I am almost positive that DLP is much higher than both DLP and LCOS.

Ericglo
According to JVC, no contest! JVC published .9 (90%) for their QX1 panel!
http://www.jvcdig.com/papers/qxga2.pdf

Check ou slide 9 for their MTF comparison to CRT!

Although the link won't work for me , I believe that the depth of modulation must be significantly better on LCOS than CRTs.

Art

Although the link won't work for me , I believe that the depth of modulation must be significantly better on LCOS than CRTs.

Art


Why?

If this figure is correct for LCOS, then it would be ultra sharp. Of course, I could be confused on MTF. Instead of getting to absolute black, maybe they are measuring to one pixel on white and on pixel off grey with a 1k to 1 cr. I just can't see this though, since the ANSI cr isn't better on LCOS. VDC rebadges some of the JVC pjs, so maybe Scott has some insight.

Ericglo

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price of the 1080 250 ?
3500:1 with 2000ansi would be magnificient indeed.

price of the 1080 250 ?
3500:1 with 2000ansi would be magnificient indeed.
for small screen , say 100 inch diag. what ansi would be needed in a dark room? If it is less than these multithousand ansi, then can the CR be increased??

price of the 1080 250 ?
3500:1 with 2000ansi would be magnificient indeed.

Low Thirties I think.

I don't know exactly what Darin did when he modded the panny 3chip but I am sure he ran into Vignetting if he choked the light path too much. The safe thing to expect is 3500:1 & 2000 al, Higher contrast ratio at d65 is a pipe dream, without DI.

CINERMAX
How many lumen do you expect 1080p-250 to deliver at D65 and close to the specs of 5000:1? The Mercury HD delivers up to specification. Why wouldn´t this projector?

I don't know exactly what Darin did when he modded the panny 3chip but I am sure he ran into Vignetting if he choked the light path too much. The safe thing to expect is 3500:1 & 2000 al, Higher contrast ratio at d65 is a pipe dream, without DI.

My understanding was it was a double cats eye.

Art

My understanding was it was a double cats eye.

Art

Then at those extreme numbers he HAD TO BE OVER-VIGNETTING. You have to do the cats eye in the lens and a reducer plate right after the engine.

CINERMAX
How many lumen do you expect 1080p-250 to deliver at D65 and close to the specs of 5000:1? The Mercury HD delivers up to specification. Why wouldn´t this projector?

85% of what you are saying would be closer. The Color filters in the xenon mode suck up some light to start with. That's why I am being conservative.

Peter,
I don't actually remember where the custom irides were located only that Darin would not have accepted vignetting at all.

Darin worked with the Eclipse device for a while. My guess is that all of this is doable but there isn't either enough demand enough money or both.


Art

Darin actually used 4 irises. 2 clear and 2 red.
See: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=678034

EDIT: I see low thirties $$$ for the Titan 1080-250. That's not too bad for what you get. Remind me again why anyone would buy a VP11-S1 with an HD81 below it and a Titan above it?

Darin actually used 4 irises. 2 clear and 2 red.
See: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=678034



Thanks for the link ! All I know is that at least in my book Darin has a handle on optimizing contrst from digitals as well as anyone.

Art

There is really not that much to the modifications for higher CR. The lens is fairly easy to do. You have to take it apart and replace the aperture with a smaller one, using the same shape and orientation. The aperture can be fabricated by most machine or sheet metal shops. Even easier is to have a large format camera repair shop do it. A good starting point is a smaller aperture with about 50% of the area of the original.

The illumination system aperture may be harder to do because of access. If it is easily accessible, it’s easier to do than the lens. Again, same shape and orientation, but smaller, matching the area reduction of the lens aperture.

To complete the process, although it is an option, is to do a precise optical alignment after the mods. This can be done only at the factory.

I just realised that the irises are not perfectly circular. On Darin's DIY project the iris was ellipsoidal (football shaped). Was that the case on your Barco too ? (that is why you mention the shape and orintation?).

I just realised that the irises are not perfectly circular. On Darin's DIY project the iris was ellipsoidal (football shaped). Was that the case on your Barco too ? (that is why you mention the shape and orintation?).

Yes, the optimal shape is that of a cat's eye and the orientation is very important. The parts for both apertures can be made for about $100 in single quantity.

You're invited to see "Superman Returns™"
screened on a DLP Cinema® system
during CEDIA 2006!
www.dlp.com
I have seen it on a Christie 2K DLP and the night scenes were crap. Poor shadow detail and very hazy. With 2000:1 contrast you are not going anywhere with dark material but wash out land.

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VIP 2000 To Be Introduced At CEDIA 2006



Digital Projection International (DPI), an Emmy® Award-winning manufacturer of high-performance projection systems, announced their newest video image processor and source switcher, the VIP 2000. The new image processor is compatible with Digital Projection's complete line of single-chip and three-chip DLP projectors, and is specifically engineered for both home cinema and commercial use.

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Mike Levi, President of Digital Projection, commented, "The exceptional video scaling and processing delivered by DP's original VIP 1000 received tremendous support – especially from our elite CEDIA integrators. We knew it was important to extend our VIP lineup to include models that, while still benefiting from Silicon Optix' Realta chip processing, could also serve the systems applications our Commercial AV dealers create. The VIP 2000 is the first of these cross-over products – unsurpassed image processing packaged in a rugged enclosure, equipped with extensive input and scaling capabilities, all accessed via an easy to view and navigate user interface."

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August 22, 2006
DPI Launches New Flagship Projector - HIGHlite Reference 1080p - For Exclusive Home Cinema


Digital Projection International (DPI), an Emmy® Award-winning manufacturer of high-performance projection systems, officially introduced its latest 3-chip DLP™ projector with 2048 x 1080 native resolution, the HIGHlite Reference 1080p. The projector represents the most sophisticated projection product specifically tailored for exclusive home cinema.

The HIGHlite Reference 1080p is built on the world's lightest and smallest 2K x 1K, 3-chip DLP™ platform, and strikes an impressive balance of custom lumen output – from 5,000 up to 14,000 ANSI lumens - and incredibly rich contrast greater than 2000:1. By using 3 x 1.26" DMD's, the projector is capable of displaying video at a resolution of 1920 x 1080, or the even higher 2K digital cinema standard of 2048 x 1080. Equipped with liquid cooling - for the quietest operation in its class - the HIGHlite Reference 1080p can be installed in medium-to-very large home cinema or media environment, for the precisely calibrated display of any video, HD or computer source.

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A wide selection of high quality optics, all with extensive lens shift capability, provides the flexibility to configure the HIGHlite Reference 1080p for use in nearly any home cinema venue. Furthermore, DPI recently introduced the TheaterScope Premier system for projectors with 1080p resolution. The TheaterScope Premier system includes a high quality 1.33 anamorphic lens and a precision engineered motorized lens sled. When equipped with the TheaterScope Premier, the Reference 1080p projector displays 1.77:1, 1.85:1 and cinematic 2.35:1 content at a constant screen height, maximizing on-screen resolution and brightness, and eliminating the horizontal black bars normally associated with "letterbox" DVD and HD formats. The optional TheaterScope Premier system will be available for the HIGHlite Reference 1080p in the coming months.

The HIGHlite Reference 1080p will begin shipping in October 2006. DPI will show the projector in booth #558 at CEDIA in Denver, Colorado, September 14-17. The projector has a list price of $105,995 and includes a standard 1.8-2.4:1 lens.

About Digital Projection International
Founded in 1989, Digital Projection International (DPI) has been instrumental in the development and application of Digital Light Processing™ technology by Texas Instruments for projection systems. DPI introduced the world's first 3-chip DLP™ projector in 1997, and has since delivered expert system engineering and world-class customer services, thus maintaining its position as a digital imaging pioneer.

DPI's groundbreaking projection research and development has garnered the admiration of industry professionals around the world. This has included many awards, including two Emmy® Awards for Outstanding Achievement in Engineering Development by the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. DPI remains the first and only projector manufacturer to win the coveted award.

Today, DPI manufactures and distributes an extensive line of ultra high-performance 3-chip and single-chip DLP™ projection systems. These projectors are the reference standard for demanding applications such as large-venue, live-event staging, Fortune 5000, Homeland Security, education, medical and scientific research, command and control, commercial entertainment, Worship and elite home cinema.

Digital Projection International Introduces First 3-Chip Native 1080p Home Cinema Projector

Digital Projection International (DPI), an Emmy® Award-winning manufacturer of high-performance projection systems, recently unveiled its newest native 1080p 3-chip DLP projector – the TITAN 1080p-250. Employing the latest in Texas Instruments’ dark metal DLP technology, the robustly designed TITAN 1080p-250 marks the company’s first native 1920 x 1080 resolution 3-chip DLP display exclusively created for home cinemas.

Weighing only 59.5 pounds with an operating noise level of less than 35dBa, the compact TITAN 1080p-250 is DPI’s smallest Professional Series projector, and provides extensive imaging capability and mechanical flexibility for any home cinema installation. Delivering up to 2,000 ANSI lumens and 5000:1 contrast, the new projector is equipped with the same core features as DP’s TITAN 1080p-500 released earlier this year at infoComm. Powered by a long-life 250-watt lamp, the versatile TITAN 1080p-250 offers users control over black level and lamp brightness, to perfectly optimize the display for home cinema applications with screens from 6’ to 16’ wide.

The 1080p-250 also features enhanced seven-point color correction, producing the widest color space of any projection system available to the Home Cinema market. User-selectable Xenon Color Mode, and super-accurate user control over the projector’s colorimetry, assures accurate white point definition with extensive control over gamma, color and grayscale tracking. All TITAN projectors also benefit from DPI’s next generation signal processing electronics, which deliver best-in-class de-interlacing and motion adaptive interpolation for all video and HD sources.

Constant-height screen applications are enabled through DPI’s optional TheaterScope Premier System, which further extends the entertainment experience delivered by the TITAN 1080p-250. The new TheaterScope Premier incorporates a precision anamorphic lens and motorized lens sled. When source content changes from 16 x 9 to a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, the TheaterScope Premier System is triggered via contact closure or RS 232 control, to accurately slide the anamorphic lens into the projector’s light path. As the constant-height screen expands from a 16 x 9 to a 2.35:1 aspect ratio, the TheaterScope Premier System optically stretches the projected image to fill the full width of the 2.35 screen surface.

“The release of the TITAN 1080p-250 is an exciting development for the home cinema marketplace,” said George Walter, Home Cinema Market Manager for Digital Projection. “For the past ten years, the Digital Projection Professional Series has consistently been employed for the world’s most dramatic applications such as the Academy Awards, the Grammy Awards, the Sundance Film Festival, and the Tribeca Film Festival. The introduction of the TITAN Pro HD-250 and 1080p-250 projectors signifies the convergence of pro-level performance and affordable price, specifically designed for the most elite home cinemas,” Walter noted.

DPI will demonstrate the new TITAN 1080p-250 at CEDIA, September 14-17 (Booth # 558) in Denver, Colorado.

Key features of the TITAN Professional Series displays include:

Rugged, lightweight and mechanically adaptable all-alloy cabinet construction
Up to seven user-selectable inputs, including HDCP compliant DVI and HD/SD-SDI
Enhanced seven-point color correction for expanded color space and super-accurate end-user color alignment
Xenon Color Mode - User selectable notch filter and xenon-color mode processing, enable TITAN projectors to closely replicate the spectral performance of xenon lamp-based products, without the high power consumption and increased thermal and audible output that is typical of xenon-based systems.
DPI’s Next Generation electronics featuring class leading de-interlacing and motion adaptive interpolation. SD and HD sources are processed using auto 3:2 and 2:2 extraction
Minimal video delay from input to screen – as low as 1 frame, depending on source
Sealed optics to protect DMD’s and other focal plane components from airborne contaminants
.98” 1080p DMD’sTM which incorporate Texas Instruments’ Fast Transition Pixel (FTP) technology, for smooth grey scale and improved contrast
Low cost, High Intensity Discharge lamp system with precision optics, provide a typical life of 1500 hours per lamp
Extensive range of lenses, providing throw ratio’s from .67:1 up to 7.0:1, all with motorized vertical and horizontal lens shift capability
Full projector maintenance access using only one tool
LED illuminated input panel and user keypad
Proprietary cooling system offering liquid cooled performance without the weight or complexity

Digital Projection International Introduces First 3-Chip Native 1080p Home Cinema Projector
Delivering up to 2,000 ANSI lumens and 5000:1 contrast...

That's the best they can do? I'm not impressed at all. Add a DI, folks!

Please do not add a DI folks! That is the surest way of compressing 10 bit video back to sub 8 bit video.

These projectors are in the low forties.

Please do not add a DI folks!,

peter i think it will be good to have a di.
its like the ruby.
if you not like it don't use it. so you have choices but if the pr. not have it you
have no choice.

i know a lot of people include me that have a ruby and
i don't know any that not use the di.
there is much talking about pro and con here at avs but in the real world everybody use it
and most not complain.

Well I was thinking of changing my mind and going for the Highlite 2048 x 1080 but looking at the specs I think I will stick with the Titan 250. I see they have added some new features. Fast Transition Pixel (FTP) technology, for smooth grey scale, expanded color space , Enhanced seven-point color correction. Im very interested in seeing these features in action. More toys to keep us busy.

I know Mayer cant wait for a fix for the contour bug he sees in DLP. DLP has the light output he needs for his large screen. I know he will get a Sony 4k in the future but when will we see DLP meet his demands so he can add a DLP to his collection :)

Please do not add a DI folks! That is the surest way of compressing 10 bit video back to sub 8 bit video.
Why? Anyway, as long as you can turn it off no harm done for those that don't like it. And your sources are 8 bit anyway for now. No 10 bit available.

Well I was thinking of changing my mind and going for the Highlite 2048 x 1080 but looking at the specs I think I will stick with the Titan 250. I see they have added some new features. Fast Transition Pixel (FTP) technology, for smooth grey scale, expanded color space ,)
What's that? A new way of driving the chip to minimize errror diffusion issues?

Why? Anyway, as long as you can turn it off no harm done for those that don't like it. And your sources are 8 bit anyway for now. No 10 bit available.

I think Peter sees the evil of it as most do but if it can be turned off then little or no harm. Of course ,who wouldn't want to see better native sequential CR than that.

We will have TI dynamic Black coming to 3 dlp in a year and a half. Let TI figure out the best way of accomplishing this. In 3dlp the higher MTF will make the breathing artifacts more noticeable than the analog like image of LCOS. I am saying that the fact that the Dyn. iris seems to work with the ruby, does not automaticaly guarantee that it will not be more noticeable under the clinical portrayal of the higher MTF 3dlp medium.

I have seen the Dynamic Black on the TI 1 chipper and the breathing was noticeable as well as a crushing of the pallette.

Although our sources are 8 bit video the pipeline for oversampling and gamut expansion is 12 bit video with HDMI 1.3, for a high quality upsampled 10 bit video effect, the TITAN will also be doing that, Dynamic Iris takes that gamut and destroys it where it looks like 6 bit video. Much like running a movie theater bulb for 9,000 hours does.

Peter ,you cut and paste with the best of them ! ;) Do you know if DPI will have a nice room with light control like two years ago or something like last year. Last years demo room looked like it took a ton of work for them to set up but was all but worthless since there was very little light control.

Art

Mike Levi LOVES the display of many screens.

I think they probably are going to be more careful this time about light control.

Mike Levi LOVES the display of many screens.

Two years ago they had a great room that displayed things well even with many screens.

Art

Although our sources are 8 bit video the pipeline for oversampling and gamut expansion is 12 bit video with HDMI 1.3, for a high quality upsampled 10 bit video effect, the TITAN will also be doing that, Dynamic Iris takes that gamut and destroys it where it looks like 6 bit video.

Then it is not well implemented. Cases where the contrast in the picture is not bigger than the native contrast should show no artifacts at all. The others will have some kind of compression and lose some resolution. But 2 bits is too crass.

Wolfgang:

Sell all of your projectors and buy an Flm hd 14 (http://www.barco.com/projection_systems/downloads/DS_FLM_HD_series_june06+.pdf). You will be smiling and crying as to how beautiful the image is. That is the perfect 1080p projector right now.

It comes with stock 2,300>1 contrast (irised lens), then you change the projector plate and you should be over 3,600 scr/3,600 al @ d-65. The lens is superb. This thing KILLED THE CHRISTIE 1080p (sheissen).

Otherwise wait for the Titan with single high power bulb, Next Summer.

If your screen is 21 feet wide, that is 188 square feet 57.3 square meters.

3600 al /188=19 Foot Lamberts. You should want to have 20-21 FL as a goal, you can lower the lamp intensity to 16-14 if you want to.Well, I cancelled my order for a Christie HD8Kc with Dual SD/HD-SDI input module, DVI input module and an (HD): 1.28-1.84:1 short throw lens about 3 weeks ago after seeing a private demo of the Barco Flm hd 14. It makes every other 1080p machine out there at any price point NOT look HD. This thing is simply stunning! Colors, CR... evenm fill rate, though we all know that's the same as everyone's PJ using the same DMDs. Its just amzing. Now, I haven't seen the new Titans of course but I don't have my hopes very high and unless something new and unexpected blows me away at Cedia, this is my PJ and I have it on order for delivery soon.

I am doing work with a Panavision Genesis that uses a single 12.4 megapixel CCD chip with the same width (but not the same height) as a standard 35mm film frame (it is native 16:9 aspect ratio) outputing real-world 6 Megapixels total -2M each of red, green and blue, theoretically giving the same approximate resolution as "2K-scanned" film and I cannot wait to see how that footage in my HT via the Barco will look like!

Cannot wait :)

Hi,

# Didn't the fan noise disturbe you?

BARCO FLM HD 14 = 56..58 dBA
TITAN 1080p-500 = 42 dBA (I guess the 250 with 1 lamp = <42 dBA)

CRT... my BARCO Cine9 = <32 dBA... (24 dBA less than FLM HD 14 !!!)

# What is US$ MSRP (ex tax) for BARCO FLM HD 14 ?

Regards, Rene-LOh yes, its loud, but I will have the PJ installed on a PJ booth so, noise to me is not an issue. The PJ's MSRP I have no clue, I can tell you how much I paid for it... PM me.

Well, I cancelled my order for a Christie HD8Kc with Dual SD/HD-SDI input module, DVI input module and an (HD): 1.28-1.84:1 short throw lens about 3 weeks ago after seeing a private demo of the Barco Flm hd 14. It makes every other 1080p machine out there at any price point NOT look HD. This thing is simply stunning! Colors, CR... evenm fill rate, though we all know that's the same as everyone's PJ using the same DMDs. Its just amzing. Now, I haven't seen the new Titans of course but I don't have my hopes very high and unless something new and unexpected blows me away at Cedia, this is my PJ and I have it on order for delivery soon.

I am doing work with a Panavision Genesis that uses a single 12.4 megapixel CCD chip with the same width (but not the same height) as a standard 35mm film frame (it is native 16:9 aspect ratio) outputing real-world 6 Megapixels total -2M each of red, green and blue, theoretically giving the same approximate resolution as "2K-scanned" film and I cannot wait to see how that footage in my HT via the Barco will look like!

Cannot wait :)

How cool is that! My most earnest congratulations. And you saw the fill rate differential too? The new Titan HD-250 will definetely not look like Barco FLM HD 14. It should look colder because of the uhp, the definition and fill rate should be very close, the lenses perhaps not, so it will not have the same POP and TRANSPARENCY.

You have a huge lamphouse differential, and everything in the Barco is top class. BTW I did not find this PJ so loud. The SONY SRX that's LOUD.

DPI will be countering the FLM HD 14 challenge with the TITAN HD -800? (ansi 8000 Lmns). But that remains to be designed (maybe it has already) and built.

The HD-800 is what is needed for HT. I am counting on being able to have an upgrade path from the HD-250 to the NEW one late next year. I would love if it delivers anywhere close to your Barco.

Still they have their work cut out, this Barco is a miracle. Are you going to modify yours Liebkid? Contact Odyssey for details. You should be able to get an extra 1:000 in on/off cr.

I propose a toast... To the finest PJ in a home :D

I cancelled my order for a Christie HD8K

Gentlemen,

This is most likely the chassis in which Runco is going to be basing some of their new High end models. There is a possibility (somewhat remote because It's like polishing a turd) that Runco can correct all of the deficiencies inherent in the native chassis implementation, in that case it COULD compete PQ wise with the TITAN HD-250, it does have a xenon advantage but appears to have a contrast ratio limitation, and if the image is like anything on Infocomm it could display an artificially augmented apparent interpixel gap, through sheer engineering incompetence at the signal path.

Well, I cancelled my order for a Christie HD8Kc with Dual SD/HD-SDI input module, DVI input module and an (HD): 1.28-1.84:1 short throw lens about 3 weeks ago after seeing a private demo of the Barco Flm hd 14. It makes every other 1080p machine out there at any price point NOT look HD. This thing is simply stunning! Colors, CR...

It's a light cannon with 2000:1 On-Off. Where is the contrast beef?

No it's not! it's 2:300 on /off pre mod, probably close to 3:700 post mod, and it is the most beautiful image ever projected electronically. Alan Gouger told you to stop whining the other day. You are NEUROTIC about this, KEEP IT TO YOURSELF and stop watching Vampire Movies all day long.

It's a light cannon with 2000:1 On-Off. Where is the contrast beef?

This isn't whinning it is stating the reality limitation of that device.Sequential CR is the beef of average to low APL viewing quality and there is a ton of it in films. Accepting less is simply accepting image quality mediocrity.

Art

This isn't whinning it is stating the reality limitation of that device.Sequential CR is the beef of average to low APL viewing quality and there is a ton of it in films. Accepting less is simply accepting image quality mediocrity.

Art


How they say it in Cuban:

"Mucho Blah Blah Blah sin haber visto un Carajo!"

Much talk whithout having seen the Sh_t. See it, then talk.

By talking without seeing you are embarrasing yourself to Odyssey's, Liebkid's, and my eyes.

...this Barco is a miracle. Are you going to modify yours Liebkid? Contact Odyssey for details. You should be able to get an extra 1:000 in on/off cr...Peter, you'll be at the AVS' Cedia party, right? Let's talk when we meet there... a have a couple ideas on possible mods on this machine that might be worth exploring... I would like brainstorming with Darin also...
This isn't whinning it is stating the reality limitation of that device.Sequential CR is the beef of average to low APL viewing quality and there is a ton of it in films. Accepting less is simply accepting image quality mediocrity.ArtArt, I know you've been (endlessly) waiting to replace your G90s with something you'll like... let me tell you, the Barco is the PJ for you. You'll need to cut down a lot of the light it shoots out for the size of your screen but, you will NOT believe your eyes. This is machine provides the picture quality that I think will be worth the upgrade to your beloved Sonys... and don't worry about SDE or black levels... this projector is not about specs on paper... its about seeing the image it actually delivers on screen!

There should be no inherent color accuracy or gamut difference between DLP and LCOS (SXRD). It’s a function of the filters, conversion matrixes, gamma curves, calibration system, etc. Three chip DLP color has been better because these factors have been better implemented.

I missed that post weeks ago.

With the exception of the QX1 a where I did not see Peter Max colors, I always see the Coast Guard-approved slime-green tint depicted on supposedly light green hues of the SRX-r110 demos, always, always , always.

And that Barco CREAMS the 4k in terms of MTF, that Barco has to have the highest measurable MTF guestimatable that I have seen.

Peter, you'll be at the AVS' Cedia party, right? Let's talk when we meet there... a have a couple ideas on possible mods on this machine that might be worth exploring... I would like brainstorming with Darin also...
Art, I know you've been (endlessly) waiting to replace your G90s with something you'll like... let me tell you, the Barco is the PJ for you. You'll need to cut down a lot of the light it shoots out for the size of your screen but, you will NOT believe your eyes. This is machine provides the picture quality that I think will be worth the upgrade to your beloved Sonys... and don't worry about SDE or black levels... this projector is not about specs on paper... its about seeing the image it actually delivers on screen!
Watch the scene in Castaway where everything goes to pitch black. It won't be pitch black with that PJ.

I agree BTW that it's an excellent PJ and am hot to get a 1920 x 1080 3-chip DLP myself. I just don't think it's what Art's looking for.

It won't be pitch black with anything that does not have 20:000>1 cr. Prepare to wait 2.5 years for that to happen in 3dlp, and it will still not be as good as that Barco, because it will be made for consumers.

It is an extraordinary price to pay for not getting this eye-candy. I say mod it to 3700:1 and enjoy.

The ansi contrast is extraordinary on this set, so you will not have many a chance to nitpick.

Yes Liebkid I'll see you there I'll PM you my cell number in case the party is too crowded.

It is refreshing to see someone else besides Odyssey that has their priorities straight in this forum.

It is refreshing to see someone else besides Odyssey that has their priorities straight in this forum.
lol.

Peter, I just noticed that liebkid's name is also Peter. This is not another case of you agreeing with yourself, is it?

liebkid, I took a quick look at your profile and 90% of your posts are on the Mitsubishi 4K (or whatever it is) WD2000U PJ. So what possessed you to move from a 4K PJ to a 100K PJ?

How they say it in Cuban:

"Mucho Blah Blah Blah sin haber visto un Carajo!"

Much talk whithout having seen the Sh_t. See it, then talk.

By talking without seeing you are embarrasing yourself to Odyssey's, Liebkid's, and my eyes.

So which side of your mouth are you talking out of now Peter. I'm not embarassing myself I'm holding this stuff to a higher standard. Two years ago everyone was sayning 2000:1 sequential CR was enough, you know better, I know better. If the device peters out at that number black is gray simple as that. I respect Odyssey , his knowledge base and his rationality.............you on the other hand. I'm looking foward to standing next to you at one of these demos at CEDIA.

Art

lol.

Peter, I just noticed that liebkid's name is also Peter. This is not another case of you agreeing with yourself, is it?

liebkid, I took a quick look at your profile and 90% of your posts are on the Mitsubishi 4K (or whatever it is) WD2000U PJ. So what possessed you to move from a 4K PJ to a 100K PJ?

This also bothers me... I somtimes wonder if Peter has another AKA again. :(

Art

Watch the scene in Castaway where everything goes to pitch black. It won't be pitch black with that PJ...OK, if I go search for specific scenes in every movie that can uncover flaws, the Barco, another PJ tomorrow or 1000 PJs in 50 years from now, there will ALWAYS be a flaw on them to be pointed out. Even film sucks if you want to analyze it as the perfect medium. This said, since Castaway SUCKS, I'll just stay away from it so it will not ruin my "uneducated" wrong perception of the Barco, that, and you are probably right, is a horrible PJ. Fortunately from me, since I don't know any better and have no good taste for true blacks, I'll live with it!

PS - Will one day these creative discussions about display devices go any further than comments on blacks?... this is getting so old...

Peter, I just noticed that liebkid's name is also Peter. This is not another case of you agreeing with yourself, is it?
Excuse me???liebkid, I took a quick look at your profile and 90% of your posts are on the Mitsubishi 4K (or whatever it is) WD2000U PJ. So what possessed you to move from a 4K PJ to a 100K PJ?If you took a quick look at my profile you made a mistake that 90% of my posts are on the Mitsubishi 4K. They are on the WD2000U PJ. I was the one that first spotted that projector and started the thread. I have 1 for my living room at home and 2 in screening rooms at my Production Co. I believe its the best price/performance 720p single-chip PJ ever made. What possessed me to buy (not a 100K PJ, but quite less than that) is a PJ for my main screening room that currently still has no projector. That is, unless you have a problem with that.

Then you'll have bury your head from Butch Cassidy and the Sun Dance Kid, The Incredibles, Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow,Serenity,Chronicles of Riddick, XMen, Aeon Flux, Road to Perdition, Pitch Black, Daredevil. Fight Club, Master and Commander ................ :o

Art

Well Cineramax may not be Liebkid today but at least he isn't P. Caufield I think it was right now.

Art

Lighten up liebkid. That was a joke directed at Cineramax. As for my question to you (4K was the rough price BTW, I listed the model # clearly), it was a perfectly fair question I think. It's unusual that someone start a thread on a 4K PJ in which they post about 100 times on it and then be purchasing a 100K PJ. Not I said it is unusual, I didn't say there was anything wrong with it.

As for what Art or I or anyone else prefers, I think that people have a right to prefer what they prefer, even if it is "getting old" to you. I've read the type of raves your posting on the Barco many many times from various people about various projectors, but in the end I've found that the specs don't lie. 2000:1 contrast is just what it says, 2000:1 contrast. However, there are some things on 3-chip high brightness DLP that can make a 2000:1 machine look pretty spectacular and contrast can also appear higher on some scenes. Gamma seetings as well as high brightness can assist in those areas. But for someone like Art that cares a great deal about black level it's still not going to be adequate.

You can placate your fears about my omnipresence in the forum now, be assured that I have not been travelling incognito, same old "Eagle-Eye" CINERAMAX. :)

Peter,

You don't really think that angry response as liebkid tricked me, do you :D.

I know a lot of these films you mentioned are good demo material, but most of those movies are Turkeys from a plot and replayability standpoint. There is only a handful of those really worth keeping IMO.

On the subject of Master and Comander you need a projector capable of black levels but you also need a projector with maximum MTF for the least amount of haze on the battle scenes, this Barco would be ideal in that regard, presenting the smoke in those scenes as floating in real space instead of casting a veil to the action. This Barco's extreme MTF would also be wonderful for the Incredibles and Aeon flux's surrealism.

No one is saying that in 2008 we shouldn't demand that Dynamic Black be perfected by TI for 3dlp. We are saying that 3,700:1 is perfectly liveable if every other image parameter is OFF THE CHARTS, that is the state of the art right now, and nothing should be done about it until TI get's-r-done. It's TI's business and TI's business alone.

http://i23.ebayimg.com/04/i/07/fc/64/ff_1.JPG

So let's settle this Light Cannon comment once and for all, to call this projector a Light Cannon is like calling Marilyn Monroe a Blonde with Big Boobs. A very Gross understatement. Capiche?

OK, so you don't care for any of those, one problem though, these are with little exception some of the best film based HD ever made, period. I could name ten more if you like but dismissing simply because you don't like them is way too easy. Certainly some great films if nothing else from shear entertainment value or perhaps AFI top one hundred films of all time isn't good enough for you either. :o

Three chip DLP is a great technology but simply because it has many strengths doesn't in and of itself negate it's weaknesses.

I want good light output ,appoximately12fL or better, but I want the very best sequential CR I can get. Go ahead settle but you are doing a service for no one.

You may have your reasons but don't feign lack of interest in the subject now, after many months of preaching otherwise when discussing screen technololgies.

Art

You may have your reasons but don't feign lack of interest in the subject now, after many months of preaching otherwise when discussing screen technololgies.

Art

The screen technologies researched ad naseum were for the purpose of enhancement to digital cinema pj's. At 2,300:1 with the high contrast screen it was very , very close to blackout in total darkness. At 3,700:1 it should be fine based on those experiments. For the next couple of years.

Well then check out the new JVC and Faroudja I suppose, it has 800 lumens 10,000:1. I don't know your square area but it may hit 12 ftlmts.

Can anybody give it a try to reply on my POST #86, see above.
Would be appreciated!


What is the screen size that you are thinking about? It seems that it’s quite large and any Xenon illuminated projector for a very large screen will have noise and heat issues if placed in the room.

In general, I would avoid sitting as close as 1x screen width. Artifacts in lower quality sources will be very visible. I would not go below 1.25x.

Does the Barco FLM HD 14 have HDCP compliance? It seems less of a problem than before, but some people will not take the risk for a purchase this large. Also, anyone thinking about this projector should also look at the Barco DP90P, especially for a constant height 2.35 installation.

The flm hd 14 has input card slots, where a dvi hdcp card could be custom made. Barco should be able to provide one since it is an Industrial piece and not a Digital Cinema piece.
They have hdcp in their lower end PJ's.

What advantage do you see to the DP90P over the flm hd 14 for 2.35?

The DP90P would require a more expensive 1.25 x isco anamorphic adapter, the FLM being a 1920 x 1080p will work with an Isco 3.

Peter,

Just because it’s technically feasible does not mean that Barco will provide an HDCP compliant DVI card. It’s entirely dependent on demand. In any case, I don’t consider it a deal breaker, but most would.

The DP90P is a digital cinema model. It has exactly the same head as the DP100 and a smaller lamp power supply unit. It also has the same motorized anamorphic lens turret and lens as the DP100, so there is no need for anything else. The P designation is for “post production” and means optimized CR, with the spec at 2500:1, probably at digital cinema white. The lamps are interchangeable, with up to 4kW possible, so there is room left for additional CR, but the limit is still around 3000:1 at nearly perfect D65.

The big potential advantage of an actual digital cinema model is if the content becomes available. The full digital cinema security will be needed and only these models have it. This is still a long shot but is a realistic possibility from smaller providers like Marc Cuban’s production company. They also have extensive 3D capability already built in. There are also a lot of other advanced features, like the TI P7 calibration system.

Rene,

Those are very large sceen sizes. Engineering a hush box would be difficult for the Barco models and a separate projector booth is better. The DP90P has an 8” diameter exhaust at the top that’s usually vented to the outside with ducting. This venting is not needed if there is enough cooling and the requirement is about 25,000 BTU/hr for a 3kW lamp.

The visibility of artifacts obviously increases the closer you are to the screen. The tolerance for this is dependent on how sensitive you are to these. I would not want to be closer than 1.25x screen width. As you noted, there are also audio issues and I don’t know what the ideal numbers are for these.

Rene,

I have looked at the Screen Research material only briefly. I am using the Stewart 1.3 gain microperf and there will be no moiré with either Barco model at your screen size range.

The worst condition for moiré is when the spatial frequencies of the screen perfs and the projector pixels are the same. For the 2K DLPs this is at about 12’ wide for the Stewart microperf, but the moiré should be very minimal and not visible because of the fill factor and pattern rotation. The 2048x1080 DLP will not visibly moiré at any screen size and the 1920x1080 DLP should be similar. I am using the 1.3 gain only because I don’t have black sidewalls and want some directionality to keep reflections low. Also, all my seating is close to being on axis, so I don’t have to worry about seating off to the side.

Again, I would avoid sitting closer than 1.25X screen width. Depending on your seating, a compromise is to sit closer for high quality material (1X) and further back for sources with more artifacts.

I don't know enough about the audio angles to offer an opinion.

Well no matter how you cut it, looking at the CEDIA offerings, the 9' wide screen guys will walk all over the larger screens in performance. There are a slew of sub $10,000 offerings in every technology touting 10,000:1 sequential CR and 1080p but with generally less than 800 lumens.



Art

The problem will still be MTF and could still be colorimetry, because of unfiltered UHP and LCOS non linearities, plus SDE on lcd..

Well no matter how you cut it, looking at the CEDIA offerings, the 9' wide screen guys will walk all over the larger screens in performance. There are a slew of sub $10,000 offerings in every technology touting 10,000:1 sequential CR and 1080p but with generally less than 800 lumens.
Art


This is true if you look at sequential CR only. If you look at the total performance, the top end 3 chip 2K DLPs are better.

Rene,

I have a 4.5m widescreen, and sit at 7m from it. That's about perfect for my taste, closer becomes uncomfortable.

If you watch mainly alone, I strongly suggest to run in phantom mode without a center channel, using a non-perf screen.

A center channel is useful for people sitting off-axis, but it compromise severely the imaging when you're sitting in the sweet spot.

It sounds much better to have a natural stereo image for dialogs rather than a sound coming from a central box.

The left and right speakers must be set up wider than the screen, and maybe 2m before the screen, not beyond as it's usual when you use a perf screen.

That's a true audiophile setting that gives depth to the audio imaging.

Rene,

Don’t worry about having too much light output. After calibration to D65, modification to increase CR, and initial aging you will barely have enough. In any case, it’s very easy to shed any excess by turning down the lamp current and defocusing the lamp.

I am using a center speaker and I feel that the analog EQ that’s supplied with the microperf causes more problems than benefit. I am also using a Meridian 861 and I wish they would implement center speaker correction. My speakers do have adjustment to slightly tilt high frequencies, but it’s not a good enough match for the roll off.

This is new for me, you tell me NO MOIRE problems if SW>12ft with MicroPerf, good!

Another so far not mentioned Stewart MicroPerf problem for me as an audiophile is the EQ fixed in the Center channel chain, or even in front L/R chains as well.
No correction device = No degradation of an audio signal.

With these high ANSI lumens DLPs the gain for my screen could go down easy I guess for the benifit of black/contrast experience. I'm even afraid for that high power. Look i.e. (200"x85") :

(14000 AL x 70% nett) x (0.8 screen gain) / 118 ft2 screen = 66.4 ftL ????....!!!!

It would be extremely surprising Rene, if you are doing a top notch room that some EQ in the chain wouldn't be required to get the most flat response anyway even if you aren't placing the mains behind the screen.

Art

Hi, as far as I understood MicroPerf need an EQ for boosting specific freqs for speakers behind the screen to have them 'in line' with others.

With ScreenResearch the freqs have an near perfect flat performance but need an overall 1.5-2 dB volume increase for only the speakers standing behind that screen. A German test showed that in an article they say (I hope it's true!). That equal/channel volume boost is quit easy to do without any additional device in the audio chain, so audiophile the better one of the two IMO.

Rene,
I'm not questioning that I'm just saying that you will likely need EQ for various room corrections. I needed it for my subs which aren'y behind the screen material. I just thought that you were thinking that EQ wouldn't be needed at all if you went with SR.

Art

Imagine a circle of 12m with 5 speakers on 0-30-110 degrees. So all at egual distance to centerpoint, the listening (=therefor also viewing) hotspot. So no delay and without screen IMO no other corrections like +/-dB needed. If I have the room's acoustic treatments OK, than I think I don't need any EQ at all !!!
Only the negative influence of a screen should be corrected in a way I described. This is what I have in mind and I truly hope I correct this time. :rolleyes:

I wish you all the luck. :)

Art

Yeah thanks,
but when I see that :) at the end of your sentence I start to get really afraid...

No need to fear I meant it honestly.

Art

Rene,

Am I understanding this correctly. Are you planning a room that can contain a 12 meter diameter circle?

Rene,
You did say that you will be using this as a theater ?

Art

this projector is not about specs on paper... its about seeing the image it actually delivers on screen!

It's always about seeing the image on the screen. But if the specs are rooted in reality and the numbers are sound there is no physical way in this galaxy that this projector with an On-Off of < 4000:1 is anywhere close to G90 black level. Nor does it render dark material without haze. That's ok if someone likes it like that. We all have our preferences. But the contrast is not stunning with material that reveals this limitation. It's at best adequate for someone not asking for more. I have seen stunning contrast. It's called SED. The number is 100000:1, not 3000:1 or 4000:1. The difference is a factor of > 10. Nuff said.

The screen technologies researched ad naseum were for the purpose of enhancement to digital cinema pj's. At 2,300:1 with the high contrast screen it was very , very close to blackout in total darkness. At 3,700:1 it should be fine based on those experiments. For the next couple of years..

So what are you saying here? There are now screen materials that take incoming light from the projector and linearly subtract the gray which represents the black level and project only the light back which is above that level? Thereby achieving real blacks and all correct shadow detail and reducing peak white by a minimal amount?

I am saying that although black was not totally blackout scenes the dark screen technology somehow made it darker, and dynamic scenes more punchy, with little apparent peak white reduction. The ansi ratio was insane.

I am saying that although black was not totally blackout scenes the dark screen technology somehow made it darker, and dynamic scenes more punchy, with little apparent peak white reduction. The ansi ratio was insane.

Uh oh, that pesky thing called physics got you confused again Peter ? Oh yea sequential contrast is the number you are quoting not ANSI . :D

Art

What i find funny here is the proposal to take a 100K (or so) projector, modify it (which to the best of my knowledge nobody had ACTUALLY done) and in doing so completely invalidate any manufacturers warranty.

Not that warranty is a huge aspect in what we are talking about. It just seems a very flippant proposal to just casually throw out "modify it" as if it is the panacea to make things "optimal"

Uh oh, that pesky thing called physics got you confused again Peter ? Oh yea sequential contrast is the number you are quoting not ANSI . :D

Art

We know that the sequential gets untouched by the screen.The floor is just reduced by the tint on the screen. The image inprovements are in the ansi.

Keep your head firmly inserted on that "Law of Physics' burrow". Ignore all psychovisual and psychoacoustic phenomenae as non existent. Boy they surely got you by the balls of mediocricy.

Reality is perception not some textbook dissertation.

What i find funny here is the proposal to take a 100K (or so) projector, modify it (which to the best of my knowledge nobody had ACTUALLY done) and in doing so completely invalidate any manufacturers warranty.

Not that warranty is a huge aspect in what we are talking about. It just seems a very flippant proposal to just casually throw out "modify it" as if it is the panacea to make things "optimal"

Oddyssey has hot rodded his Barco dp100. It involves a replacement (removable) 5 x 7 metal plate and a lens mod, no circuitry is affected.

These very simple modifications are now available from both Barco and DPI. Barco seems to have liked the results and introduced the P version of the DP90 that uses them. And no, I did not have any warranty issues with Barco. I routinely do service level electronic and mechanical adjustments and that's not a problem either.

Reality is perception not some textbook dissertation.

The texts will define delusion just this way.............I'll go with the text books over some of the "my reality is reality" absurdities you regurgitate daily here.

Sequential contrast is the number you repeat over and over ragarding projector performance but then you sight ANSI parameters and effects to support your assertions. It doesn't work that way even in your wonderland.

Art

Actually, one of the biggest causes of ignorance (on several levels) for all of us as human beings is the inability to discern that our perception is NOT reality. But I digress...:)

The texts will define delusion just this way.............I'll go with the text books over some of the "my reality is reality" absurdities you regurgitate daily here.

Sequential contrast is the number you repeat over and over ragarding projector performance but then you sight ANSI parameters and effects to support your assertions. It doesn't work that way even in your wonderland.

Art


That $175,000 video wonderland while short lived looked fantastic although only 2,200 :1.

You are the one trying to twist my words to get into an argument to undermine 3dlp cinema stuff.

Quote me a sentence I have written this year where it refers to ansi cr. as sequential. That "going in" I had not realised the relevance of on/off contast greater than 2,000:1 , when I did my experiments with the high contrast screen, I grant you that, but once I saw what you, Darin, Michael,and Michel were quabling about I agreed with you that it was noticeable but very briefly, and certainly not as annoying as you make it sound, because of the rear screen and other image niceties.

Meanwhile look at what you are watching with limited MTF, annalog non linearities, not being able to increase the contrast to compensate for programme content.

Stop bitching please and stay out of the dlp threads until dynamic black comes out.

Actually, one of the biggest causes of ignorance (on several levels) for all of us as human beings is the inability to discern that our perception is NOT reality. But I digress...:)
Indeed it is the Celebrities perception that should be accepted prima-facie, right Q?

You are the one trying to twist my words to get into an argument to undermine 3dlp cinema stuff.

.

Peter,
I'm hoping that 3 chip DLP gets where I want this was never my argument in this it's just if it hangs at 2000:1 for the foreseeable future it will not look as good overall to some of the lower priced stuff coming up.....sad ,real sad.

Art

We will see. I'll opine after CEDIA.

Indeed it is the Celebrities perception that should be accepted prima-facie, right Q?
I can't imagine a more unintentionally fitting response to my post. Your response is a result of your perception, a perception that you have evidently projected onto me, but I submit it is not remotely related to reality, i.e. anything I have ever suggested. That is my perception ;).

How perceptive of you,Q.

For the Titan chassis to perform anywhere near like that Barco is going to need a1,500 watt cermax xenon bulb, or a new High Power UHP,the target is 8,000 lumens with regular contrast (with a hot rodded option for us) that would put this new Titan -800? in the 65 to 70k range with lenses.

Phone today:

BARCO MSRP (excl 21% Belgium sales tax for Belgian market = 0% for export)

FLM HD 14... 76 000 EUR x approx 1.25 USD/EUR = 95 000 USD
Lense... 6 750 EUR x approx 1.25 USD = 8 440 USD

Compared to DPI TITAN 1080p 250/500: MSRP "in low thirties" USD [=1/3 BARCO] :o

Speaking strictly of 1080p machines and not 2k:

Rene, if you are trying to justify the purchase of the Barco you should compare it instead to the new Runco which is going to be 115K. We will see it next week, but do not have high hopes because it is based on a Christie with less power and contrast. However we have to go in open minded about it.

Unless you could modify the digital cinema units for better contrast why would one want an 8000 lumen projector for for a home ( besides daytime viewing of a football game for instance) ?

Art

Because there is the old firehose and nozzle analogy. They will do the Odyssey mod in the Titan chassis when the high power lamps get put in. It keeps the cost down of having to go to a larger box chassis. I negotiated this PJ with the top guy himself for my 2007 jobs. That is how they are going to counter Barco's 1080p's offensive.

Since they can already get to 5,000:1 contrast ratio on the Titan with the small bulb, by putting a bigger lamp in and throwing away 2/3 of the light, you end up with 2,300 calibrated ansi lumen and maybe upwards of 6,000 maybe even close to 7,000 to 1, NATIVE O/O CR. That is what i am shooting for. The cool thing is that because of the chip and light engine remain the same, the next gen Titan would be interchangeable with a HD-250. This enables me to start off with a higher gain screen fabric (in my case for the Torus), but deploy the second lower gain skin afterwards.

Take a look at a sample intended application:

So which projector has 8000 lumens and 5000:1 native CR ?

Art

The FLM HD 14 is not a digital cinema model, but it doesn’t really matter because its performance is good enough for the highest end HT use, with the exception of sequential CR for some of us. Also, although the 8000 lumen spec may seem high, it has about the right amount of light output needed to get the CR to about 3000:1 at D65.

I don’t know all the differences between the 2048x1080 and 1920x1080 DMDs, but the 2048x1080 is probably better. Again, it should not be significant for HT use.

Regarding pricing, the FLM HD 14 is priced at the right level considering what’s in it. The digital cinema models like the DP100 and DP90 are still under priced. The price commercial theaters are willing to pay is limited and the volume, although at a good level now, is still not enough to justify the price. This is also one of the reasons why it may be difficult to buy one of these now for home use.

Set aside all your Torus prejudices for one moment. That design when completed will be the shrpest most well foccused ISCO 3 image on the planet. Glenn Berggren won an Oscar (he won five technical Oscars) for the design of the "Isco Ultrastar-plus", the father of the ISCO 3. At around the same time 1990's he was co-owner of Sigma the Torus screen originators, Gerald Nash his partner explained how these two technologies were intertwined by design.

The razor sharp corner focus (achieved by coupling the dome shapes of the lense and the screen) enhances the virtual reality aspect, the light rejection of the peripheral kickback light contributes further shooting ANSI cr, and potentialy the venue compensated o/o floor. But perhaps the largest psychovisual contributor is the white field uniformity, this imparts a plasma like color saturation of the image that seldom is seen. This will come in handy when we get into deep color 12 bit oversampled video. Theoretically (and I will ask Don Stewart this) a Torus screen can compensate for the native light cone fall off of the PJ, by reverse hotspotting
compensation thuse being able to achieve close to 100% perfect scren efficiency.

As to the sound of the Torus room design above, I predict that it will be Studio Quality, for 2 reasons, I have retained the acoustical techniques learnt in the fabulous sounding Rococo style room (affectionately referred to as the Polish whorehouse in the theater designer thread), but with a vast trump card to boot.The screen is now much more elongated and shorter, where the acoustical hot spot is beamed above the audience into an absorber. Also because the screen is now ANISOTROPIC , it's much shallower largely eliminating the acoustical focus intensity.

Hence it's my intended design for the worlds ultimate HT, in an average sized ht footprint.

The FLM HD 14 is not a digital cinema model, but it doesn’t really matter because its performance is good enough for the highest end HT use, with the exception of sequential CR for some of us. Also, although the 8000 lumen spec may seem high, it has about the right amount of light output needed to get the CR to about 3000:1 at D65.

I don’t know all the differences between the 2048x1080 and 1920x1080 DMDs, but the 2048x1080 is probably better.

The FLM 18's "Standup ovation" by those that voted it best PJ at Infocomm was proof conclusive that a 1080p can look identical or possibly better to a 2k chip, as they were projecting side by side, and the FLM seemed to have better contrast ratio. The "gennum"video processing is impeccably implemented giving the appearance of nearly identical fill factor to the 2k but with a transparency of the image that it is moving to see.

None of the expected entendue, fill factor, lack of focus etc problems, some of which plagued the Christie 1080p largest chassis offering were exibited by the FLM.

Overall I am more comfortable with the 1080p chip as a platform, and think it will integrate better with our brave new 12 bit HDMI 1080p universe of signals, processors, and sources.

DPI is very confident that they will be able to squeeze that level of performance, scaled to the 8k class, in a compact package, with Odyssey's mod for HT version nicknamed the TITAN CINERAMAX.:)

HT version nicknamed the TITAN CINERAMAX.:)

Did you miss Runco's names for their new high power 2.35:1 line ? They are called the Cineramax series. They have that little "R" thing with a circle around it at the end.

Art

Holy cow Art, they really do.

this should make things interesting...

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Looks like you lost your name peter. (i will have to thank sam)

Great! I'll be the new owner of Runco then, I'll return the Vidikron brand to Giovanni Cozzi (http://www.emergingpictures.com/giovanni_cozzi.htm) first, get rid of that Christie crap second, and change the name entirely to one of my own choosing.

Ahh the old Vidikron crew. Good to see Giovanni is still around. I meet him at the Vidikron head courters for training back in early 90s.
I was surprised how small the place was at the time with only 10 projectors on the shelf for all the States.

By the way I hate elevators. Did I say I hate elevators. Not going up but coming down. Id white knuckle it all the way :) Every training course I ever attended "there were many" in NYC were always at the top floor of a skyscraper. 40 to 80 floors up. Never failed. Im guessing the higher up you go the cheaper the space. Brings back memories.

Great! I'll be the new owner of Runco then

I guess they didn't notice that you had a trademark on that too. Pretty catchy name I think.... congrats Sam ! Had anyone heard who the OEM is of these projectors ?

Art

I assume your question is in jest Art but will still answer. Everyone *claims* the 3-chip models are sourced from Christie. I've heard varying claims on the 1-chips and I think there are several OEM's not just one. I really don't pay too much attention any more as I think Runco is adding real value to their units (or at least the vast majority of them) these days Runco haters notwithstanding, regardless of whether they are the OEM. I think they have truly become a market leader/innovator by providing a packaged constant height solution with their Cinewide offereings. Again, the Runco bashers will yell foul and point out how DIY's can create a constant height offering for much less but that's hardly the point...IMO.

I wish Runco all the success in the world adding value to the christie 1080p platform. With the sandard set by the FLM, it is a real challenge. If they succeed I will be the very first to state it here.

Ahh the old Vidikron crew. Good to see Giovanni is still around. I meet him at the Vidikron head courters for training back in early 90s.
I was surprised how small the place was at the time with only 10 projectors on the shelf for all the States.

By the way I hate elevators. Did I say I hate elevators. Not going up but coming down. Id white knuckle it all the way :) Every training course I ever attended "there were many" in NYC were always at the top floor of a skyscraper. 40 to 80 floors up. Never failed. Im guessing the higher up you go the cheaper the space. Brings back memories.

Alan,

Giovanni had the very first store filled with front projectors on a second floor 1 block south of bloomingdales' Main west entrance. At that time the guy was far ahead of the game he had only a couple of brands Kloss being the big one, but he had every size curved and flat screen on display, floor and ceiling. It was really cool. He jump started Home Theater in 1979 (certainly one of the Fathers).

He was the reason I opened Fermont Home Theater back then building my own PJ's.

I assume your question is in jest Art but will still answer. Everyone *claims* the 3-chip models are sourced from Christie. I've heard varying claims on the 1-chips and I think there are several OEM's not just one. I really don't pay too much attention any more as I think Runco is adding real value to their units (or at least the vast majority of them) these days Runco haters notwithstanding, regardless of whether they are the OEM. I think they have truly become a market leader/innovator by providing a packaged constant height solution with their Cinewide offereings. Again, the Runco bashers will yell foul and point out how DIY's can create a constant height offering for much less but that's hardly the point...IMO.

QQQ,
You never hear me bash Runco. As you said there is value added in their products and they supply a segment. An example is me and cars. I love the look and comfort and the joy relatively speaking of driving nice cars but that's it. I simply don't care about much else. Even as hobbyist I appreciate what Runco provides for those who want a great product with great support but would have no desire to hang around a place like this for example.

Art

QQQ,
You never hear me bash Runco.
I know :-). I was being proactive in anticipation of the inevitable Runco hater who pops into any thread where some dares to mention Runco to point out how Runco is the devil, trying to screw "the man" (DIY) by stealing his hard eared dollars. Of course the Runco basher also always has to add some condescending comment to make himself feel smart such as "Runco is for people who need handholding and have more money than brains". So I was just being proactive in anticipation of Tryg etc. showing up ;) :D.

This is killing me just the small hint with the new series name, that they are three chip DLP 1080x1920 and integrated scope devices. Does anyone know more yet ?

Art

Are they showing it at the Cedia? any update? Has been waiting for a while

did they not show the pr. or did no one
see the units?

i am surprised that till today no one post about it.

I PMed Art and he saw it. I think he'll be posting when he gets a chance.

I saw the Titan 250, it looked spectacular IMO. I will try to be more complete when I get back to Michigan. We are at Angela's father's house in Fort Collins CO with four of our children. We will be going to the airport shortly.I will also say that the Digital Projection guys are some of the coolest people I've met, tough not to like them.


Art

Looking forward to more details, Art! I am trying to get a demo of some of their kit but they are booked solid here in the UK and getting an extended demo is proving tricky :(

Mark

For what its worth......I don't post much so hopefully I don't sound like a complete idiot.

I think DPI has one the coolest setups at the show. 5 projectors / 5 screens in a large dark room with a friendly sales staff ready to answer questions. The Titan 250 1080p looked no different than the 720p model. Maybe they needed to project the Titan 1080 on a larger screen (>100'') or maybe the 1080p proto is not ready for prime time yet. I did noticed the two projectors were calibrated differently. I felt the 720p model was warmer/brighter?. Both the 1080/720 Titan's showed the same smoothiness @ > 1.5x. The DPI sales rep stated they struggled to calibrate the 1080p model. The Titan 250 output was stunning but very source dependent. Some Clips were outstanding but others were okay. I reconmended to the DPI sales rep to go see if Algolith will lend them a mosquito to help clean up the noise on their source material :) I spent 45mins with Mike (DPI) and without a doubt DPI is passionate about their product. I paid the $60 EXPO Fee just to see this projector. I currently own a c3x lite. I am seroiusly considering upgrading my c3x to the Titan 250. I believe the Titan 250 is based on the Mercury HD optics with updated electronics from Silicon.

Dwight

Art

When you have the time Id be curious to hear your opinion how the Titan compared to other 3 chip DLPs at the show and how it stacked up to the Lcos ( sony, cinetron etc ) in perceived black level contrast etc.

Thanks!!

For what its worth......I don't post much so hopefully I don't sound like a complete idiot.

I think DPI has one the coolest setups at the show. 5 projectors / 5 screens in a large dark room with a friendly sales staff ready to answer questions. The Titan 250 1080p looked no different than the 720p model. Maybe they needed to project the Titan 1080 on a larger screen (>100'') or maybe the 1080p proto is not ready for prime time yet. I did noticed the two projectors were calibrated differently. I felt the 720p model was warmer/brighter?. Both the 1080/720 Titan's showed the same smoothness @ > 1.5x. The DPI sales rep stated they struggled to calibrate the 1080p model. The Titan 250 output was stunning but very source dependent. Some Clips were outstanding but others were okay. I reconmended to the DPI sales rep to go see if Algolith will lend them a mosquito to help clean up the noise on their source material :) I spent 45mins with Mike (DPI) and without a doubt DPI is passionate about their product. I paid the $60 EXPO Fee just to see this projector. I currently own a c3x lite. I am seroiusly considering upgrading my c3x to the Titan 250. I believed the Titan 250 is based on the Mercury HD optics with updated electronics from Silicon.

Dwight

Hi Dwight

I think you are correct the Titan 1080 at the show is proto. When I had the 720 Mercury HD I have t say I miss it. I was running it with its saturation filter engaged but you had to enter the machine in analog mode other wise this filter was not available. It was the best thing I have seen even to this day. Im curious if this filter is still avail on the Titan and if it has been added to the digital input. Using this filter greatly increased black level to the point it looked as good the Ruby but with the additional brightness and punch at the upper end.
I have found all 3 chip DLPs bring out any weakness in the source such as compression artifacts because they are so bright. The use of a ND filter helps. Thats the nature of using a light canon. Our source are still not what they could be but with HD DVD and BD we are a step closer. I have one of these on order and was told it will ship before years end. I cant wait. Enjoyed your input.

I have found all 3 chip DLPs bring out any weakness in the source such as compression artifacts because they are so bright. The use of a ND filter helps.

yes alan
i remember the day i had the double stack sony g90.
a very knowledge dealer inform me that a new dvd is out and have
reference picture with"almost no noise at all"

few days later i got this disc and i told him a have noise visible.
he visit me some days later and i show him first one g 90.
he see some noise because my g 90 was far more bright than his sony g50.
all that change when i use the double stack.
the double brightness increase the noise a lot.

so too much much ansi is may not helpful in every case :)

It seems Motion Picture Theatre Projectors insist on using the larger physycal size/ area 2048x1080 DMDs, while consumer/professional/large venue, are setting on the (cheaper) and smaller 1920x1080 counter parts.

Could someone shade some light on what the advantage is of the DLP projectors using the larger 2048x1080 DMDs versus the smaller 1920x1080 DMDs? Also, since its fair to assume that the actual horizontal resolution on both size DMDs is the same (1080), where is the detail advantage from the larger DMDs?

2048x1080 does not cover the 2.35 aspect ratio natively (2048 is just barely wider than 1920) so you'd still need an anamorphic adapter to get true 2.35.

Besides as all 1080p content is 1920x1080, I am assuming those projectors will always simply display black vertical bars on both sides and not make any use of the extra pixels. I was just in Japan for a few days and saw an impressive demo of the NEC NC800 fed an with an HD-DVD. Stunning overall image quality. However from the 1.78 aspect ratio of the film, it was of course cropping both sides with the extra 128 pixels not used...

http://www.nec-pj.com/products/dlpcinema/800/

This machine is very similar to the DPIs TITAN 1080p-500 (even light output and CR specs are the same), but it uses the larger DMDs.

Art

When you have the time Id be curious to hear your opinion how the Titan compared to other 3 chip DLPs at the show and how it stacked up to the Lcos ( sony, cinetron etc ) in perceived black level contrast etc.

Thanks!!

Alan,
I saw the Titan 250 a lot. In fact, the great guys at DPI allowed Ken Whitcomb,Darin Perrigo, Angela and me to stay after the floor closed to see some of our own material over HDDVD.
http://www.geminiangelart.com/images/cedia008.jpg



Lots of light and color that exceeded real life and any other projected images I'd ever seen in my life. It certainly hammered the digital cinema presentation that TI sponsored on Thurday night at the Pavillion Cinemas up the street from the convention center not only in color but sharpness.We asked the presentor what projector was being used at the Superman demo and he simply said it had the same guts as the Barco( light engine). The Superman showing was on a single dimension curved sreen in a small theater with less than two hundred seats . I'm guessing the screen was about 40' wide I sat one screen width back.The Digital Cinema unit looked like it had no better than 1/2 to 1/3 the sequential contrast compared to the Titan unit perhaps worse. All of the three chips I saw had better color,contrast and sharpness relative to this presentation.

My opinion of the Titan after also seeing several one chip 1080p DLPs and LCoS projectors was that it looked spectacular! I saw the SIM2 three chip three times, twice sitting through the TI demo at diffrent times then once at the off site room at the Adams Mark hotel. SIM had it set up with a larger screen there. Ken and Angela were with me there. For me the best thing at the show was I Robot in DTheater on the 12' wide screen with the SIM2 1080p PJ.

http://www.geminiangelart.com/images/cedia022.jpg

http://www.geminiangelart.com/images/cedia021.jpg


I was very familiar with the tape since I'd seen it many times on my system. This thing had to be outputting close to 35fL on that screen and it was simply mezmerizing ! :cool: Even when there was low APL material in that film it looked good. Ken got into the menu at the SIM room and noted that the lamp was at 50%. Here I was able to walk up to the screen stand less than 1x width back etc .....big fun ! :D

Overall I think that PQ on the Titan compared to the SIM were very very similar. I believe that the SIM would be better able to handle screens in excess of 12' and sustain it ( even loaf). The SIM unit exteriorly looked nicer for sure but with me this is of no consequence. Likely, based on the conversations I had there, you will be able to get the Titan with lens for $10,000- $15,000 less at MSRP than the SIM.

More later ! :)

Art

Art,

If the Superman showing was with a Barco unit, it had to be either a DP100 or a DP90. I don’t think that the DP90P, which has increased sequential CR, could handle a 40’ wide screen. The DP90 is limited to a 4kW lamp, and it probably can’t do it either.

The sequential CR of the standard DP100 and DP90 is about 2000:1 at digital cinema white and 1500:1 at D65. Superman had to be with digital cinema colorimetry, so it should have been 2000:1. Did DPI clarify the 5000:1 spec of the Titan? Is it native or D65?

Regarding color accuracy and sharpness, the digital cinema models should outperform the Titan if the setup is done right, but only by a modest amount for consumer content. In any case, they should not be worse, since the lenses are better and the color gamut much larger with a system for adjusting primaries. For digital cinema content like Superman, color accuracy should have been much better because of the 50% larger gamut and either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 sampling.

Can you clarify your comment that the Titan colors exceeded real life?

Did Sim2 comment on a possible 1080p follow up to their success C3X?

Comment ? They had one of the best looking big screen demos I saw.

Here it is in their off site room at the Adam Mark with my wife.They said shipping in December 50,000 USD without lens.

http://www.geminiangelart.com/images/cedia022.jpg

Art

Art,

Was anyone able to find out if Sim is using the light engine they custom developed for the CX3 that supposedly results in better contrast (i.e. the light engine is optimzed for contrast, Not brightness)? The word here had been they would be unable to incorporate that in the 1080 model (at least in the first one). Do you know what the contrast spec was for the Sim you liked so much?

Did DPI clarify the 5000:1 spec of the Titan? Is it native or D65?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can you clarify your comment that the Titan colors exceeded real life?


Hello O: got back home with a 24 hour delay at Ohare, so can't delve too deep.

The Titan specs are at D65 calibrated with a very high quality spectrum radiometer. The colors were dead on and having the combination of contrast and brightness just portrayed a very rich pallette. Seems like 5:000 contrast ratio works well without the need of auto irises. I don't see using the 500 for the home after experiencing 5:000>1. When comparing to the SIM the Titan will always be a little dimmer because of the lamp filtering which is part of their xenon mode thing.

Got to Party with Art, Angela and all the guys, we had a blast at the AVS party.

Sam Runco very graciously and affectionately arranged for me a VIP tour of their exclusive dealer presentation where they unrolled a massive lineup with at least 4 dozen different displays, scalers, lenses, parts, and trademarked acronyms. It's good they didn't Quiz you at the end because it was funny to see 60-70 dealers trying to absorb all this data verborheum during the lively presentation with masking panels popping and lenses sliding all over the ballroom. The Tiki Tiki room of CEDIA.

I saw some very impressive PJ's in the Runco room, and yes one can make a Christie Chassis look great. I will explain in detail my interpretation of their approach to the mods and power vs gain sizing strategies for the 3 dlp's, which assures a good QC of the final implementation at the customers home. Runco is about to gobble up a huge chunk of the market from Japanese Projectors Inc., good show ol boy, Ben Hur never looked so good.

I wish Runco all the success in the world adding value to the christie 1080p platform. With the sandard set by the FLM, it is a real challenge. If they succeed I will be the very first to state it here.

While I am not necessarily saying it is as good, it was quite good and a different aspect ratio entirely.They Succeeded.

While I am not necessarily saying it is as good, it was quite good and a different aspect ratio entirely.They Succeeded.

I'm glad to hear that Runco is up there. :)

P.S. CEDIA seems to have been an overall breath-taking show for 1080p display devices.

Art,

Was anyone able to find out if Sim is using the light engine they custom developed for the CX3 that supposedly results in better contrast (i.e. the light engine is optimzed for contrast, Not brightness)? The word here had been they would be unable to incorporate that in the 1080 model (at least in the first one). Do you know what the contrast spec was for the Sim you liked so much?

I did not ask about the light engine design but in their room they said it was 5000:1 at 2200 lumens.

Art

So Art... how much longer do you think you'll be hanging onto the G90's?

Well, Angela and I sat down to watch a movie last night and we both just smiled.Pretty tough to beat the overall picture I have on my screen size. The only seductive thing I saw at CEDIA were the 1080p three chips from DPI and SIM. If at some later date I go to a 14' wide 2.35:1 though I see some nice options that could have more acceptable CR compared to the < 2000:1 we have been expected to accept.

After spending two days looking at essentially everything of note there I'm excited at what we are getting but actually more excited at what I have. :)

Art

The G90 in my small video room is definitely going. The main thing that kept it there this long is that the screen is only 67” wide. No doubt that the sequential CR of the Titan 250 is lower, but everything else is better, especially color accuracy, MTF at higher frequencies, ANSI CR, uniformity, and an all digital path. With a very small screen, I am still considering single chip DLP, and the new JVC technology looks very attractive, but the SD and HD-SDI inputs without going through a processor for conversion to DVI/HDMI is a plus for the Titan.

The G90 in my small video room is definitely going. The main thing that kept it there this long is that the screen is only 67” wide. No doubt that the sequential CR of the Titan 250 is lower, but everything else is better, especially color accuracy, MTF at higher frequencies, ANSI CR, uniformity, and an all digital path. With a very small screen, I am still considering single chip DLP, and the new JVC technology looks very attractive, but the SD and HD-SDI inputs without going through a processor for conversion to DVI/HDMI is a plus for the Titan.

We will not be on the same side of the fence on this but we have talked about this for years you and me. :) I simply feel that the ability to render black is extremely important to top to bottom image depth. The digitals are getting much much better but at least on my screen size you'd never get me to trade what I have for any of the devices on display at CEDIA. The good news is they are getting better. I will also say that seeing I Robot on a 12' wide screen that sharp and clear with something like 35fL was very, very seductive! :eek: :cool: I feel that at some point here I could trade as long as I get a nice 14' wide screen as one of the trades.

Just my take. :)

Art

Art,

If the Superman showing was with a Barco unit, it had to be either a DP100 or a DP90. I don’t think that the DP90P, which has increased sequential CR, could handle a 40’ wide screen. The DP90 is limited to a 4kW lamp, and it probably can’t do it either.

The sequential CR of the standard DP100 and DP90 is about 2000:1 at digital cinema white and 1500:1 at D65. Superman had to be with digital cinema colorimetry, so it should have been 2000:1. Did DPI clarify the 5000:1 spec of the Titan? Is it native or D65?

Regarding color accuracy and sharpness, the digital cinema models should outperform the Titan if the setup is done right, but only by a modest amount for consumer content. In any case, they should not be worse, since the lenses are better and the color gamut much larger with a system for adjusting primaries. For digital cinema content like Superman, color accuracy should have been much better because of the 50% larger gamut and either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 sampling.

Can you clarify your comment that the Titan colors exceeded real life?

I agree it's just that it was not sharp .I looked at the demo stuff of the Titan and after floor closing saw some of my own HDDVD software that I'm extremely familiar with. I got up closer than IX width at the DPI booth to the Titan presentation and it was quite sharp unlike the TI digital cinema Superman showing. It appeared to me that the cinema showing had poor focus across the screen since it appeared to be less sharp in certain areas of the screen. No question the sequential CR was poor even compared to the IMAX film presentation I saw of Superman a few weeks ago.

The colors on three chip DLP is so saturated that honestly ,I just don't see that in the outside world. And not for a minute would I want anyone to change the DLP !!!!

The colors on three chip DLP is so saturated that honestly ,I just don't see that in the outside world. And not for a minute would I want anyone to change the DLP !!!!

My reference for ultimate picture quality in Reality is an afternoon during September in Magens Bay U.S.V.I. where the rapid cloud movement above the rich coral islands and tropical vegetation will display 1 billion colors just like those shown by the 3dlp.
http://clubecruzeiros.pt/02/images/destinos/Caraibas/St.%20Thomas%20Magens%20Bay.jpg

My reference for ultimate picture quality in Reality is an afternoon during September in Magens Bay U.S.V.I. where the rapid cloud movement above the rich coral islands and tropical vegetation will display 1 billion colors just like those shown by the 3dlp.
http://clubecruzeiros.pt/02/images/destinos/Caraibas/St.%20Thomas%20Magens%20Bay.jpg

Looks like a nice reality !

Cineramax at the AVS party:

http://www.geminiangelart.com/images/cedia038.jpg

We will not be on the same side of the fence on this but we have talked about this for years you and me. :) I simply feel that the ability to render black is extremely important to top to bottom image depth. The digitals are getting much much better but at least on my screen size you'd never get me to trade what I have for any of the devices on display at CEDIA. The good news is they are getting better. I will also say that seeing I Robot on a 12' wide screen that sharp and clear with something like 35fL was very, very seductive! :eek: :cool: I feel that at some point here I could trade as long as I get a nice 14' wide screen as one of the trades.

Just my take. :)

ArtArt, first of all thank you very much for all your feedback on what you saw. Alsom Runco released a plethora on new PJs. What PJ model was the one you saw I Robot from? Did they give you a demo of the mechanical Autoscope/ Cinewide mechanism working? I think for your screen size the pic quality of your G90 ill prevail still for a long time. I'd say at least a other 2/3 years till a true around 20.000:1 can give you the blacks your accustomed at. One more question; do you know (just as on some hang-end theatre 2K 3 chip DLP PJs and some new consumer machines like the new D-ILA for JVC) if either the SIM2 or the Runcos, have a user adjustable convergence fine-tune alignment option?

Thanks again for your write ups.

Honestly , I went to CEDIA with my primary goal to view devices in action and with my own or familiar software when possible. I Robot was on the new SIM2 three chip unit. I didn't ask about user convergence but probably this info could be obtained with a phone call.

The mechanical anamorphic lens I saw at DPI on the Titan although SIM has one of their own it was not in use in the SIM demo room.

Art

After spending two days looking at essentially everything of note there I'm excited at what we are getting but actually more excited at what I have. :)

Art

:D :D :D :D

Yep, I sure am glad!

Thanks big dog.

Cliff

Art thanks for the follow up on the 3 chip DLPs. These were due to ship by years end but I just found out we are looking at end of 1st qtr or later for some of these. What a tease :)

Art thanks for the follow up on the 3 chip DLPs. These were due to ship by years end but I just found out we are looking at end of 1st qtr or later for some of these. What a tease :)

Yes !! Alan I really loved the look of some of these no doubt. And no doubt they have image capability that is incredibly better than a couple of years ago. Then ,leaving some lights on in the room was common to aid the percption, not any more, great great stuff.


Cliff,
Best of luck with you acquisition. :)

Art

After spending two days looking at essentially everything of note there I'm excited at what we are getting but actually more excited at what I have. :)


Sounds good Art, so do you think it would be silly for me to spend some $$$ retubing my CRTs now?

The G90 in my small video room is definitely going.

How are you Ivan? Need a buyer :) Will you be upgrading your main projector also?

Gino,

My G90 has a lot of hours, but has been used on a small 67” wide 1.3 gain screen, almost entirely in 4:3, using absolutely the full phosphor area. It’s in excellent shape. It will be available as soon as I can get delivery of its replacement.

I have 3000:1 sequential CR with my large projector with perfect D65 tracking. These new units seem to go to about 5000:1, which is a significant improvement. There are other differences though that are important to me, especially full compatibility with digital cinema content. Although I have not been able to obtain full length content, I have not given up, and the possibility from smaller providers seems feasible, although the cost may be high. The limitations are now in the source and the quality jump from HD-DVD and BD to digital cinema with the right projector is large. I had access to a lot of clips that show dazzling image quality, especially on a screen much smaller than commercial size.

I had access to a lot of clips that show dazzling image quality, especially on a screen much smaller than commercial size.

They showed Sam Runco's personal projector and screen at the show with a digital cinema clip of King Kong that was breathtaking on a 16 foot wide image.

So yeah digital cinema content would be good.

Sounds good Art, so do you think it would be silly for me to spend some $$$ retubing my CRTs now?



I'd say on a screen about the size of mine that a stacked or blended G90 set up is argueably the best there is. My opinion after the show was that I could live with the couple of fine three chip DLPs I saw based on their advantages in color,light output,and uniformity especialy if a larger screen was in the mix. Yes giving up that much depth at the low end would be a disappointment but they are very very nice images. For now I'm very very happy to see how well my set up holds it's own so I'm in no rush. But for me the hobby is movies,friends,and equipment so I'll plan and research as I always have.

So the short answer right now 11' wide screen retube ,12' plus SIM2. :D

Art

Personally I am looking forward to next years stretch version of the Titan 1080p HD series. It will use the same lenses and overall chassis width and height but with added 6" in length to accomodate the compact xenon 1?,1.2?,1.5?KW. If they can clamp it down further we could get 3000 ansi & 6-7k:1 plus real xenon to boot.

That will be the ultimate compact PJ. And no it will not be called the Titan Cineramax despite rumours.;) For Ohlson that had been taking about the CPL lamp from phillips, they had this UHP lamp with enhanced reds ready to go into production at DPI when Phillips decided to pull it out. For reasons unknown.

They showed Sam Runco's personal projector and screen at the show with a digital cinema clip of King Kong that was breathtaking on a 16 foot wide image.
So yeah digital cinema content would be good.

Runco should be packaging a digital cinema content subscription package with the $250,000 projector. If they can make a deal with at least one of the studios, even a small one, this projector would sell well enough to make it worthwhile. Even one digital cinema movie per month would be enough to generate a lot of interest. I should probably call Sam to discuss this. I don’t know him, but he did call me once to try to convince me to purchase the Hughes JVC ILA projector through Runco.

Runco should be packaging a digital cinema content subscription package with the $250,000 projector. If they can make a deal with at least one of the studios, even a small one, this projector would sell well enough to make it worthwhile. Even one digital cinema movie per month would be enough to generate a lot of interest. I should probably call Sam to discuss this. I don’t know him, but he did call me once to try to convince me to purchase the Hughes JVC ILA projector through Runco.

Id bite. Someone really needs to do this. Sam already bumps heads with producers etc so who better to approach about this then Sam. He probably already has some of this stuff sitting on his private self anyway. Time to share some of that content :)

Lack of security with the current Runco model would be a problem. It’s not a digital cinema model and TI might not allow one of the DC licensees to supply Runco.

One of the compact NEC models would be perfect for this and Runco has a longstanding relationship with NEC. It’s irrational for TI to object to a hundred or so residential installations to have limited digital cinema access, but they seem to have a problem with even one digital cinema projector in home use. They don’t seem to recognize the intangible benefits of exposing influential people to the technology.

Haha... sounds like my plan... when I build a new house, I'll be factoring in a 14' screen and by that stage, I bet there will be even further improvements in digital, but since that is at least another 2-3 years away, I think I might retube (Looking at P19LUG09's)

Runco should be packaging a digital cinema content subscription package with the $250,000 projector. If they can make a deal with at least one of the studios, even a small one, this projector would sell well enough to make it worthwhile. Even one digital cinema movie per month would be enough to generate a lot of interest. I should probably call Sam to discuss this. I don’t know him, but he did call me once to try to convince me to purchase the Hughes JVC ILA projector through Runco.

Given that DPI is selling several hundred Mercury projectors to India, why do movie houses need the $250,000 and up Christie and Runco projectors.?? Compatibility with source material perhaps? A 5,000 lumen projector 2000:1 contrast on a 15 ft wide screen (126 sq ft) puts 35 fL on the screen and in a dark room with only 8 fL on the screen, that makes a contrast ratio of over 5.. And the spec is 12-14 fL for digital cinema

For home use, a Titan 1080p-500 derated to 3000 lumens (dual lamp typical movie scene) with 15 fL ambient will throw 60fL on a 107 wide screen at a 5.1 cr At night with all lights off (8 fL ambient), and only one lamp at half power, its 30 fL on the screen at 4.8 contrast ratio.

In both cases,15ft and just under 9 feet wide,the image is SPECTACULAR!!

The DPI screen brightness calculator says that projector contrast ratio really doesn't matter about 2000:1 Double to 4000:1 and nothing changes in screen brightness calcs. The difference will be in the details visible in low light movie scenes.6:000:1 will have better detail than a 2000:1 projector.

The difference will be in the details visible in low light movie scenes.6:000:1 will have better detail than a 2000:1 projector.

Personally I've never seen enough difference in display of shadow detail between something like the Qualia at 1950:1 and a one chip DLP at 5000:1 but instead in the rendering of black as black rather than gray.

Art

For their two 1080p high end xenon based units Runco is using the projectors internal autostability lamp algorythms, this after settting Total black to 1/8th of a footlambert.

While they do add modified Irises in their light path and lens (Jim Burns explained how they very carefully had to pay attention to materials that don't warp under extreme heat - I guess aluminium is out of the question) they are not as aggressive as Odyssey is. When I mentioned in front of my client's technical lieutenant that I wanted to throw away 2/3's of the light to maximise the contrast Jim's eyes opened up and gave me a look like if I was insane, yet this is precisely the approach that has given Odyssey some record levels in class readings. Ruco does not publish cr specs. I would guestimate that due to the use of a compact xenon in their two top 1080p xenon projectors that they are reducing the light path aperture by say 1/3, that allows them to increase the contrast while allowing for a decent image on screen over an extended period of time at the customer's home, which is what they need to keep the customers happy. Now Runco (neither Sam nor the company) have any problem at giving the customer 35 foot lamberts on very big screens 14-21 as long as they can bring o ire to 1/8th of a footlambert. I personally find that an excellent idea.

Given that DPI is selling several hundred Mercury projectors to India, why do movie houses need the $250,000 and up Christie and Runco projectors.?? Compatibility with source material perhaps? A 5,000 lumen projector 2000:1 contrast on a 15 ft wide screen (126 sq ft) puts 35 fL on the screen and in a dark room with only 8 fL on the screen, that makes a contrast ratio of over 5.. And the spec is 12-14 fL for digital cinema

For home use, a Titan 1080p-500 derated to 3000 lumens (dual lamp typical movie scene) with 15 fL ambient will throw 60fL on a 107 wide screen at a 5.1 cr At night with all lights off (8 fL ambient), and only one lamp at half power, its 30 fL on the screen at 4.8 contrast ratio.

In both cases,15ft and just under 9 feet wide,the image is SPECTACULAR!!

The DPI screen brightness calculator says that projector contrast ratio really doesn't matter about 2000:1 Double to 4000:1 and nothing changes in screen brightness calcs. The difference will be in the details visible in low light movie scenes.6:000:1 will have better detail than a 2000:1 projector.

The India Mercuries are 720P, and your assumptions about Indias measurements being verifiable under our methodologies are suspect. In my first viewing of the Titan 1080p 500 it's contrast ratio was way lower than 2:000 1, by contrast and you can ask Art that saw it, the contrast ratio of the Titan 1080p 250 was clearly OFF the charts well into 5:000-1 territory.

For their two 1080p high end xenon based units Runco is using the projectors internal autostability lamp algorythms, this after settting Total black to 1/8th of a footlambert.
...
Now Runco (neither Sam nor the company) have any problem at giving the customer 35 foot lamberts on very big screens 14-21 as long as they can bring o ire to 1/8th of a footlambert. I personally find that an excellent idea.That would be horrible CR. Not even up to many digitals of 5 years ago. 21 ft-lamberts for white and 1/8th of a ft-lambert for total black would be a CR of 168:1.

--Darin

21 was in feet (screen width), they were talking about 35 to 50 foot lamberts output, but the 8th of the footlambert for the total black I remember (it could be that Jim said lumen instead of foot lamberts, but that sounded far fetched). Their high end PJ's did look fantastic.

Please don't try to take my comments and apply math to them as I am sure I may be missing other parameters, and it is not fair to R.

21 was in feet (screen width), they were talking about 35 to 50 foot lamberts output, but the 8th of the footlambert for the total black I remember (it could be that Jim said said lumen instaed of foot lamberts but that sounded far fetched). Their high end PJ's did look fantastic.

Please don't try to take my comments and apply math to them as I am sure I may be missing other parameters, and it is not fair to R.Okay. It is possible that Jim thinks that ANSI CR is how you measure total black and on/off CR is irrelevant. :)

--Darin

Mercury 5000 HDI for India theaters has specs so very very close to Titan 1080p-500, its almost like they took out the 720p light engine and dropped in the 1080p light engine. Brightness and contrast specs are identical. I had a DPI factory rep tell me that their target for these theaters was 14-16 ft lamberts, and that the spec for Digital Cinema was 12 fL. Motion picture projectors used by the various big box cinemas are reported by the same DPI source to deliver about 12-14 fL open gate (no film in the projector). But remember, movie theaters are VERY dark compared to most home, even most home theaters.

Turn off one lamp and contrast ratio should improve (but not double)?

Was the SIM2 1080p 3 chip at CEDIA a single or dual lamp model?

My vendor will be ordering a Titan 1080p-500 for me next week. They have 2 or 3 on backorder now waiting for shipments to start next month.

The difference will be in the details visible in low light movie scenes.6:000:1 will have better detail than a 2000:1 projector.

Is that necessarily so? And what does better detail mean? I'm not talking about absence of haze, depth perception or correct color saturation (which all improve with higher On-Off CR) but detail.

But remember, movie theaters are VERY dark compared to most home, even most home theaters.

Is that a joke? That reminds me I need some track lighting and an exit sign.:)

Ericglo

My vendor will be ordering a Titan 1080p-500 for me next week. They have 2 or 3 on backorder now waiting for shipments to start next month.

Any new orders as far back as month or two will be waiting into next year. Im lucky enough to have ordered very early.

The Sim was much brighter at the show using one bulb. Im guessing they do not use an iris in the same manor as DP at the expense of some brightness.

Turn off one lamp and contrast ratio should improve (but not double)?Unless one lamp is giving higher CR than the other, the CR shouldn't change when turning off one lamp. Designing for one lamp vs two lamps might be a different story though just because of some of the design decisions that can be made.

--Darin

darinp2
CINERMAX can tell you a little about 1 vs 2 lamps. He wrote about it earlier.

CINERMAX
Have got any more news on CPL? Try to find out why they are waiting with CPL.

CPL? It is temporarily dead in the water.

The reason for the sim higher brightness is the lack of lamp filtering and possibly a less aggressive path reduction. The titan set a new benchmark for 3dlp blacks.

Perhaps but if the claims are true they have similar sequential contrast. The SIM was much brighter IMO. Of course, the calibrated outcome may be different. This is a time when we need someone with experience and the proper equipment to review.

Art

Art:

I don't recall but what is the current width of your screen presently.

For anyone else:

At what screen width does 3 chip 1080P DLP come into play vs Sxrd and Dila, I assume 3 chip sxrd or Dila are relevant up to a certain screen width?

Thanks

CPL? It is temporarily dead in the water.


"temporarily dead", this is good news for CPL
Then CPL is like Jesus and he is good :)

I interpret this as Philips is not ready to ship CPL just yet but are working hard to develop a new technology.

Perhaps but if the claims are true they have similar sequential contrast. The SIM was much brighter IMO. Of course, the calibrated outcome may be different. This is a time when we need someone with experience and the proper equipment to review.

Art

I went to the Sim facility when the 720p 3 chipper came out and I found that the projectors in the same room were calibrated all over the place. I know that DPI used a spectrum radiometer to calibrate the unit at CEDIA to D65. Odyssey has explained that there is a significant drop in brightness on digital cinema pieces to achieve D65. If they are the same type bulbs (dpi/sim) how else would you account for the difference? The "Xenon mode" lamp filters (that clip green and blue) have always made a difference with DPI being less bright than SIM but better color (IMO), I know that is a factor, could the calibration be another factor?

Oh Art, :) did you know how the folks at DPI affectionately refer to you?
"THE Doctor", intoned with every bit of ominosity as when "Large Marge" was threatened with a visit from "THE Doctor" (Detroit).

I went to the Sim facility when the 720p 3 chipper came out and I found that the projectors in the same room were calibrated all over the place. I know that DPI used a spectrum radiometer to calibrate the unit at CEDIA to D65. Odyssey has explained that there is a significant drop in brightness on digital cinema pieces to achieve D65. If they are the same type bulbs (dpi/sim) how else would you account for the difference? The "Xenon mode" lamp filters (that clip green and blue) have always made a difference with DPI being less bright than SIM but better color (IMO), I know that is a factor, could the calibration be another factor?

Oh Art, :) did you know how the folks at DPI affectionately refer to you?
"THE Doctor", intoned with every bit of ominosity as when "Large Marge" was threatened with a visit from "THE Doctor" (Detroit).

Trust me Peter I think a lot of those guys. :)

Art

Like I stated in another thread...

The TITAN was TOPS at CEDIA!

Help me out here:

I did not have time to make it to the show so I am counting on you guys for guidance.

Assuming price is not a consideration, which would you choose, the Sim, the Titan HD-250, or the Titan HD-500, under the following conditions:

A theater with a 13 to 14 foot wide screen?
A theater with a 9 foot wide screen?

Which would be best half way through the bulb life?
Can the 500 be properly reduced in brightness to produce a higher C/R?

Are there other mod/tweaks that should be considered with these projectors?

Regards,

Assuming price is not a consideration, which would you choose, the Sim, the Titan HD-250, or the Titan HD-500, under the following conditions:

A theater with a 13 to 14 foot wide screen?
Probably a modified Titan 500.

I haven't seen the Titan nor the Sim yet, but I saw other Sims and did not like their color output. The Titan Xenon mode should be much better.

A theater with a 9 foot wide screen?
The Titan 250.

Can the 500 be properly reduced in brightness to produce a higher C/R?
Wolfgang has been told by DPI that the Titan 500 can be modified to support the yellow notch Xenon mode filter, and should achieve 3500 Lumens and 3500:1 CR.

Sore Eyes
If you can afford a TITAN 1080p-250 you can also afford to change the bulb for a couple of hundred dollars if you think the projector has lost too much brightness. I will vote for TITAN 1080p-250 with frequent bulb changes.

250,250,250,250. Never ever the 500.

All I know is for what will likely be $60,000 just for the projector and lens I'd want to demo the device ,with known software, in an environment very close to that of the proposed theater.

The 250 throws a fantastic picture, no doubt, but I have to wonder about a screen over say 10' to 12' being appropriate.

Art

These comments are helpful, and yes Art, the projectors will have to be demoed. However, I prefer to know what is possible before I “fall in love”.

I have three projects coming up; one with a 14ft screen, one with a 12ft, and one with an 8 to 9ft screen. All of these are ‘upper end’ theaters and cause me to have the following concerns: is the 250 too much for the smaller screen, and is it not quite enough for the larger screens. If the 500 can ACTUALLY be knocked back so as to produce a less bright picture along with improvements which begin to match the image of 250 then the decision for the larger screens gets easier. Or is changing the bulb more frequently on the 250 the only way to maximize the film experience?

Wolfgang, can you tell me whom you spoke to at DPI about the 500 mod?

w

Well sore eyes you are grappling with a problem that is the same one I'm on. At my screen size I have no reason to move, IMO there is no upgrade from here right now. On a 14' wide CH set up that picture changes( excuse the pun :o ) but there appear to be very very few options.

The light output on the 250 seems to be a problem, the 500 doesn't have the better sequential CR. The HT 5000 gets more light and the same CR as the 250 but perhaps sacrificing color.

Art

I would not be concerned about the 250 being too much for a smaller screen, especially if the panel registration is very good…taking away the only performance advantage of a single chip design. It’s possible that the CR can be increased further by reducing the aperture sizes and a very low gain screen can be used to maintain dynamic CR in less than ideal rooms. I am planning to use it on a 67” wide screen, although I am still looking at alternatives, including single chip designs.

The light output on the 250 seems to be a problem, the 500 doesn't have the better sequential CR. The HT 5000 gets more light and the same CR as the 250 but perhaps sacrificing color.

Art

Art, what does "sacrifice color" actually mean? If both devices can deliver the full HDTV gamut, with correct primaries, then they should have the same color?

Cheers,

Mark

Art, what does "sacrifice color" actually mean? If both devices can deliver the full HDTV gamut, with correct primaries, then they should have the same color?

Cheers,

Mark

Mark,
Right now I'm in the dark. I don't know how SIM is getting more light. We checked the projector and it had the lamp at 50% and had to be getting 35 fL on a 1.3 Stewart 12' wide 16x9 screen. My comment was perhaps based on simple lack of facts and my attempt to fill in the blanks. I thought the SIM PJ had the best in show based on my limited look. This was in part on the fact that I got to look at both the 250 and the SIM with software I'm very familiar with.If I was looking at two projectors both with 5,000:1 sequential contrast and the DPI was dimmer I'm assuming that color calibration could account for the light output disparity .



Art

I would not be concerned about the 250 being too much for a smaller screen, especially if the panel registration is very good…taking away the only performance advantage of a single chip design. It’s possible that the CR can be increased further by reducing the aperture sizes and a very low gain screen can be used to maintain dynamic CR in less than ideal rooms. I am planning to use it on a 67” wide screen, although I am still looking at alternatives, including single chip designs.

I think a better question would be could you mod a 500 to get 5,000:1 or more and have 2000 lumens.

Art

I think a better question would be could you mod a 500 to get 5,000:1 or more and have 2000 lumens.


Since the 250 already offers 5000:1 and 2000 lumens, that would have no use at all.

The better question is about having more lumens than the 250.

3500 and 3500:1 looks like a good compromise.

CINERMAX
Since it will be some time before the 1080p-250 will chip perhaps you can influence DPI to make the projector into a 1080p-300?
I think that would make sense feeling what the demographic here has concerns about.

Art, the one thing that differentiates our problems is that you are dealing with, ‘do I, or do I not upgrade’, while I have to choose because these are new installations.

I do think the sweet spot is 5000:1CR and 3000 lumens. So the question is can either the 500 or the 250 be coaxed towards that result?

Robena; the one reason the 500 brought down to 2000 lumens may work is if it could be made to hold the full 2000 lumens through much more of the bulbs life, (kind of extra reserve to be called on as needed over time; not sure if this is possible).

Since the 250 already offers 5000:1 and 2000 lumens, that would have no use at all.

The better question is about having more lumens than the 250.

3500 and 3500:1 looks like a good compromise.

Well If the 250 and SIM 2 have the same lumens , at least in the demos I saw, then I'm Joe Kane .

Art

Art, the one thing that differentiates our problems is that you are dealing with, ‘do I, or do I not upgrade’, while I have to choose because these are new installations.

I do think the sweet spot is 5000:1CR and 3000 lumens. So the question is can either the 500 or the 250 be coaxed towards that result?

Robena; the one reason the 500 brought down to 2000 lumens may work is if it could be made to hold the full 2000 lumens through much more of the bulbs life, (kind of extra reserve to be called on as needed over time; not sure if this is possible).

I understand. I just think that if you are doing an install and you are pushing the limit on screen size it would be a mistake to use ther 250. This same conversation came up when people thought the Qualia was good for giant screen sizes when really 9' probably would have been more appropriate.


As far as sequential CR, I think the elephant is standing in the middle of the room. I think those who says that they really don't care about it are being disingenuous. If we could have 50,000:1 devices and 2000 lumens I really ,really doubt that there would be a lack of takers and folks saying that, oh no, 3000:1 is all I want it looks as good as an average film presentation.

Art

CINERMAX
Since it will be some time before the 1080p-250 will chip perhaps you can influence DPI to make the projector into a 1080p-300?
I think that would make sense feeling what the demographic here has concerns about.

Been there done that, the unit is identical to the Titan but 6" longer. It is based on the next gen Titan 1080p 8000 lumen xenon based commercial model. If I have jobs where the Titan 1080p 250 initially has to go in (but is too small for the screen) I will get the client the upward path migration to the 800 (with Odyssey mods). Although that projector could well be around 70K.

Make sure ifyou want this type of performance from a Titan Chassis that you allow the extra 6" like in my sketch.

Hi Art - I'm looking to replace my HD2K and I'm moving to a 14 or 15 foot screen.

The discussion about the SIM and the Titan units is fascinating - since these are potentially the sorts of units I will have to look at.

This is a new game for me, since the HD2K was only on a 10 foot screen. Since you have experience with stacking PJs, could you tell me whether I could acheive my goal by stacking 2 or three hi-contrast units to get the light I need?

For instance, there are Lcos units with 6,000 native CR but only 1000 lumens (which I'm guessing would turn into 750 lumens pretty quick when calibrated)

Could stacking allow me to obtain the highest CR?

Hi Art - I'm looking to replace my HD2K and I'm moving to a 14 or 15 foot screen.

The discussion about the SIM and the Titan units is fascinating - since these are potentially the sorts of units I will have to look at.

This is a new game for me, since the HD2K was only on a 10 foot screen. Since you have experience with stacking PJs, could you tell me whether I could acheive my goal by stacking 2 or three hi-contrast units to get the light I need?

For instance, there are Lcos units with 6,000 native CR but only 1000 lumens (which I'm guessing would turn into 750 lumens pretty quick when calibrated)

Could stacking allow me to obtain the highest CR?

Well theoretically, yes, but you mentioned two that could get the screen size with one projector. Additionally , CH would be unrealistic without one lens.

Just my take, but after CEDIA, I'd look long at the big three chip DLP units as your first choice. The SIM was on a 12' wide 1.3 gain screen in their off site room and I bet it had 30 to 35fL at 5000:1. Enough for a 14' wide screen IMO or at least close.

Art

Thank you very much for the help!

Just my take, but after CEDIA, I'd look long at the big three chip DLP units as your first choice. The SIM was on a 12' wide 1.3 gain screen in their off site room and I bet it had 30 to 35fL at 5000:1. Enough for a 14' wide screen IMO or at least close.

That puts the Sim in the 2000 lumens range.

I use a 1500 lumens Qualia on a 15' wide screen. It's bright enough with a new lamp, but that does not last long!

My guess would be that the Sim would be adequate too initially, but become frustrating when the lamp ages. A modified DPI 500 should be more satisfactory in the long term for a 14' wide screen.

That puts the Sim in the 2000 lumens range.

I use a 1500 lumens Qualia on a 15' wide screen. It's bright enough with a new lamp, but that does not last long!

My guess would be that the Sim would be adequate too initially, but become frustrating when the lamp ages. A modified DPI 500 should be more satisfactory in the long term for a 14' wide screen.

I think this is the problem. The mod to get reasonable sequential CR would be a must.

Art

What the Hell Happened at Cedia

All the pre-Cedia talk was the excitement centering on the new three chippers. Now what do we have in the way of conversation; one guy, Art, (who has done a nice job of sharing his opinions of these upper-end machines), and a few others who are aggressively in the market for these projectors, but have not seen the machines.

Where are all the others who saw these in action? Where are the comparative reviews? We can’t even get a reasonable answer to where the ‘extra’ light came from in the Sim machine. No one seems to know if the DPI 500 can be throttled back to produce better C/R. How come we can’t get a manufacturer to weigh in on this?

And Art, when are you going to get off the fence and say, without going back and forth, if you had to buy a DPI or a Sim machine for a large but not huge screen, say 13ft, what would you pick?

And to repeat, where are all the others with golden eyes who saw these beasts and why aren’t they talking? (Or was Cedia another fraud like when we supposedly sent a man to the moon, when in fact it was filmed with just a few people in a theater built by Art?

Some units will ship before q1.

And Art, when are you going to get off the fence and say, without going back and forth, if you had to buy a DPI or a Sim machine for a large but not huge screen, say 13ft, what would you pick?




Based on what I saw at CEDIA , the SIM HT5000 but I still wonder if the performance differences of these two is set up and calibration dependent or due to design.

PS I believe they went to the moon ! That thing in my theater was for the movie Capricorn One. :D


Art

Hi Art,

What would be your 3DLP choice for 200"x85" acoustical transparent screen?

# SIM # TITAN250 # TITAN500 # ...?

Regards, Rene

It would not be the HT 5000 or Titan 250. Since I'm not researching that , I have little to go on. For me 14' wide would likely be the largest screen I'd want to use.

Art

Richard Hill from DPI told me that I should be able to get a review sample for a couple weeks by Dec. since they're still ironing-out the bugs in the scaling software for the Titan 1080P-250.

I saw the DPI, not the Runcos, and not the SIM- and since the DPI wasn't as calibrated as it no doubt has the potential for, I choose to stay quiet about the issue. I would've liked to have seen the Runco offsite, but couldn't locate an "in". I didn't even know about the SIM offsite- but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't payed enough attention to SIM since the HT-200 DM was released (yeah, goes back a ways- I know.)

Once I have hte ability to spend real time with the TITAN- critically, then I'll be more vocal about what I see and how I feel it compares to what I've used as my reference to date for 3-chip displays (Qualia 004). I'm quite confident that DPI has a winner on their hands in the Titan 1080P-250, the question is: does Runco take the advantage when it comes to larger screens? (14' wide+ scope)

Then of course, there's always the question of what follows the Qualia 004 from Sony? We know that something's coming (probably shown to a select group at CES)... then how far off is it, and how much will it be?

Peter, as time goes on- I find myself agreeing with more and more of what you've been saying for a couple years now......and it scares the hell out of me! :D :D

Dan

What would be the range of ideal viewing distance to screen width for the new crop of 3 chip Dlp's, would it be 1 - 1.5 viewing distance to screen width?

save your $40,000.00 with dynamic black being rumored right around the corner. Then you will have a real machine worth keeping. You may not be able to give the Sim and Titan away this time next year.


Your rumours are full of poppycock, you will not see dynamic black for 2 years after it arrives to 1 chip dlp.

Rene stop wasting your time with the 500. Get a 250 with a negotiated upgrade path to future 800 model.

Dan,

The story of my life, :) let's see when we see more Torus Talk around here, it's the better way of doing constant height.

:D Lucky me, time is at no charge for me, it's a hobby only.

You're convinced the 250 is adequate for a 200"x85" screen? See this:

# Screen Research (SR)? Measured gain = 0.8 (not 0.95 as they say)

2000 ANSI x 70% nett x 0.8 gain = 9.5 ftL
(200"x85") / 144

# With Stewart I can use MicroPerf screens with different gains:
1.3 (=11.9ftL), 1.5 (=17.8ftL), 1.8 (21.4ftL), 2.0 (=23.8ftL) in same formula.

I prefer SR above MicroPerf because of none EQ is needed. But than it's only 9.5ftL...

Still saying the TITAN 250 is right for me? :confused:

You mentioned a upgrade path to future models, you say 800. This is what DPI can offer? Is their design really that modular?

Regards, Rene
Rene ,
You are running the right numbers and then factor calibration , and even a small amount of lamp aging into that and something has to give.

Art

Just throwing in my 2 cents, I am not as knowledgeable as Peter when it comes to the mods etc but I have tried several 2 bulb projectors and I would never pass up the 5k:1 contrast machine over a 2k:1 machine. The two bulb units are built for light output to be used in pour light controlled environments. In a light controlled room for HT use they are indeed bright but they look generations old in the contrast department. From what I have experienced I would stay away from them.
I had plenty of brightness on a 10 foot wide image from last years Mercury HD. Im convinced the brighter Titan 250 HD will do well at 15 feet on a solid screen or a MP but with a fabric AT screen it may lose some of its punch. Im not into negative gain screens even with a light canon. Theres something missing but in some cases you have no choice leaving -AT materials a viable option. A 15 foot wide screen leaves plenty of room for separating the L/R speakers enough to warrant putting the speakers behind the screen.