I have now posted a .zip'd ISO of the 8/16/06 demo DVD. If you can download a 157MB file without too much grief, unzip it, and can burn a DVD from an .ISO file, you can have the entire DVD.

It's at http://www.penteosurround.com/ftp/PenteoDemo_8-16-2006.zip

It will unzip into an .ISO file, which can be burned to a DVD using any DVD-burning software that supports ISO burning, complete with color bars and menu structure, and Dolby Digital 5.1 surround audio.

The audio and music content on this DVD is owned by its original copyright owners and is provided for audio processing quality evaluation only.

How many tracks? Are they full length tracks?
At 157Mb, it's quite a tiny DVD. :)

There are 5 full-length tracks. First one to name them all wins the prize of being able to claim they were first. :)

The 157MB is the size of the zip file, which unzips to a 700MB ISO before burning to about a 750MB DVD fileset. (It's that small because the video is only color bars with burned in timecode.)

I could have left out the timecode and made it even smaller....

John,

Thanks for the download. I liked the beetles track, very cool as well as the 4th track. I noticed it was Dolby Digital not DVD A MLP, but it still sound pretty good. Interesting is how you were able to create a 5.1 out of the stereo tracks? Did you have access to the original recording?

Scooter

1. Beatles
2. CSN&Y
3. Doors
4. Peggy Lee
5. Not sure of this one, Joe Jackson?

All tracks sounded great except for the Beatles track. Not exactly sure why, just didn't feel right to me. Maybe I'm so used to hearing it one way. I really enjoyed the Peggy Lee and CSN&Y tracks. Way to go!

Interesting is how you were able to create a 5.1 out of the stereo tracks? Did you have access to the original recording?
No - these are from the original stereo mixes.. That's what Penteo is - it's my upmixing process that parses the stereo panorama into surround cleanly. What you're hearing is the original stereo panorama spread out cleanly amongst a surround panorama.

Look at your hand - take your fingers and spread them out as far as you can with the thumb and little finger at 90 degrees; --- that's the Stereo conversion to Penteo.

Thanks for your compliments.

5. Not sure of this one, Joe Jackson?

Okay, I snuck that one in. Actually, it's my current favorite band/singer, a guy named Jordon Zadorozny and his former band Blinker the Star. We correspond a lot. I'm sure he'll appreciate the association. He now records out of his parent's basement in Ontario, Canada and has a new band named Abbey.

All tracks sounded great except for the Beatles track. Not exactly sure why, just didn't feel right to me.
You're hearing Geoff Emerick's original mix (1969?). It wasn't recorded on a lot of tracks so it's pretty spread out when it's spread out. Also, the snare was panned hard right in the original stereo mix, so it winds up in the right rear !!!

Enjoyed the music also. Very impressed the way the surround channels were created from what was I guess two channel material.

I had no idea who artist 5. was either. I guess whatever prize you were offering, it would have been safe :)

Larry

You're hearing Geoff Emerick's original mix (1969?). It wasn't recorded on a lot of tracks so it's pretty spread out when it's spread out. Also, the snare was panned hard right in the original stereo mix, so it winds up in the right rear !!!
i only listen Golden Slumbers/Carry that Weight/The End.
(big Beatles fan here)

yes,"The End",don't need nothing more: it's wonderful :cool:

if you excuse me i want to ask: the sound is very clean,better than cd.
of course you did some to get this clean sound.
did you equalize or something like this?

best regards
;)

I had no idea who artist 5. was either. I guess whatever prize you were offering, it would have been safe :)


It's actually listed on the DVD Menu :)

if you excuse me i want to ask: the sound is very clean,better than cd.
of course you did some to get this clean sound.
did you equalize or something like this?

best regards
;)
It's part of the stereo preparation for surround parse-out: I do three things: absolute azimuth correction, absolute NAB EQ correction (L/R), digital noise elimination and automated digital EQ normalization at 1/3 octave intervals. It's the same kind of thing that I would do if I were remastering any CD for stereo. If you A/B the stereo original to the stereo prepped master, it sounds 20 years newer.

We can do a lot more now than we could back when these CDs were first mastered.

Thanks for the compliment.

John,
Very nice indeed. When the first track started I was busy shuffling discs and thought: hmm, 3 channel. After a bit it hit me. 5 channels! -well, could be 6, I didn't have the sub on. :)
Great voice-in-center, very discrete.
Do your methods carry well with all types of Rock music?
I certainly do not expect you to post any PFloyd, Hendrix, etc., but am very curious, as my conversions tend along those lines.
Thanks much!
I think you have a good thing going here. Hopefully one that will be equally profitable for music buyers as well as yourself.
regards,
boondocks

Do your methods carry well with all types of Rock music?

It depends entirely on how the original stereo mix was panned. All I'm doing is parsing the panorama. It's really just room-sized stereo.

We can do a lot more now than we could back when these CDs were first mastered.

Thanks for the compliment.

I played selection number one for my friend, an old hippy. He's very familiar with the whole Beatles catalog, but he had to ask me if this was a "cover" by another band. He'd never heard McCartney sound as up close and personal as on your demo disc. I liked it very much as well. Thanks for making it available and how soon before the next one's ready? :)

It's part of the stereo preparation for surround parse-out: I do three things: absolute azimuth correction, absolute NAB EQ correction (L/R), digital noise elimination and automated digital EQ normalization at 1/3 octave intervals. It's the same kind of thing that I would do if I were remastering any CD for stereo. If you A/B the stereo original to the stereo prepped master, it sounds 20 years newer.

We can do a lot more now than we could back when these CDs were first mastered.

Thanks for the compliment.

wonderful. :cool:
(was not needed any A/B test to hear the quality of the sample, is really better, no doubts)

i was reading the faqs in your site: "How do you intend to market Penteo?"...

then i ask you: how one "single home user" like me can get Penteo?

best regards John!
;)

ps: i forgot..."single home user" and poor like me...... :p any chance?

Looking Forward to my copy of the DVD demo, have good audio system, but older computer with no DVD burner. Was listening and watching The Beatles Antholgy Vol. 7 and 8. They did a very good job remixing many of the songs into 5.1 surround. Used a good sense of "envolpment" One thing which concerns me is that the only widespread media that can accomodate discrete 5 chanels is DVD Video using Dolby or DTS lossy algorthims. DVD-Audio and SACD being niche formats, CD and Vinyl being 2 channel only; and BluRay and HD-DVD still in infancy with sucess not asured yet.

ps: i forgot..."single home user" and poor like me...... :p any chance?
Hey JorgeLuiz: Penteo isn't a product for sale (like a box or a piece of software), it's a mastering service that I intended to market to record companies and online services like Rhapsody and iTunes. Unfortunately, surround music is now somewhat out of favor as a revenue source, so I'm still trying to find or put together an online service or a packager to market Penteo discs and/or downloads.

Hopefully we'll find a way, soon.

John, a use for Penteo might be for radio stations. WZLX in Boston , a CBS owned FM, is going to broadcast 5.1 surround of classic rock on its HD2 digital signal using the Neural 5.1 codec. The analog and HD1 signal is classic rock. They might want to remaster 60s ,70s and 80s rock tunes into surround using Penteo to increase their playlist for their HD2 channel. Looking forward to DVD demo, adress sent in private email-- mgpt6

It's actually listed on the DVD Menu :)

Well since my HT system has a projector has its display unit, I just popped the disc in and played it. I didn't bother to look at the video since as you noted, it was minimal.

Larry

I listened to the demo a few times over the weekend. All around, I liked it very much. It DID sound like a new Beatles recording. :)

Ok, so now get to writting a set of algorythms that will do this on the fly, and that will work with DSPs used AVRs, and we have a winner. Throw Dolby PLII out the window, and in with Penteo.

So can you be hired to remaster an individual CD collection? :)

Ruin

I listened to the demo a few times over the weekend. All around, I liked it very much. It DID sound like a new Beatles recording. :)
Wow, thanks. Unfortunately, it's not an automatic process; a lot of work is done by hand, so it takes 1-2 hours to process a single song, depending on how much damage has been done by time and mastering errors.

I'll keep working on a legitimate marketing plan. Thanks again.

John, a use for Penteo might be for radio stations. WZLX in Boston , a CBS owned FM, is going to broadcast 5.1 surround of classic rock on its HD2 digital signal using the Neural 5.1 codec. The analog and HD1 signal is classic rock. They might want to remaster 60s ,70s and 80s rock tunes into surround using Penteo to increase their playlist for their HD2 channel. Looking forward to DVD demo, adress sent in private email-- mgpt6

I actually dropped an email to their Program Director, who said "Telos is handling all that for us." I'm not quite sure what part of it is any surround upconversion.

Hey JorgeLuiz: Penteo isn't a product for sale (like a box or a piece of software), it's a mastering service that I intended to market to record companies and online services like Rhapsody and iTunes.
very clear John. :)
no matter where you will use your work the result is fantastic,i'm still impressed with Beatles sample. :cool:

(maybe) off topic
this take me to another conclusion for home users(or final users):
my expectation was ....how Penteo could sound in AC3?
as(or if) AC3 is lossy,with Penteo this lossy format sounds better than my original cd that is lossless.
and now? what the aac,flac,wav and other too big format lovers can say against AC3 if the quality(what you hear) is what really matter!...? :p
you can have lots of AC3 in one single CDR with "Penteo quality" .
(this theme deserve another thread? ...)

regards.

this take me to another conclusion for home users(or final users):
my expectation was ....how Penteo could sound in AC3?
as(or if) AC3 is lossy,with Penteo this lossy format sounds better than my original cd that is lossless.
and now? what the aac,flac,wav and other too big format lovers can say against AC3 if the quality(what you hear) is what really matter!...? :p
you can have lots of AC3 in one single CDR with "Penteo quality" .
regards.
As I said in an earlier thread, JorgeLuiz, the way it "sounds" usually has nothing to do with the format that it has been encoded in, it has to do with how well it was encoded. AC3 (and its forerunner AC2) is essentially transparent in its first generation, and professional listeners are hard-pressed (and usually can't tell which is which in controlled studies) to hear any difference between a master tape and the encoded output.

My demo uses no compression, -31db dialog normalization (which makes it as loud as any other format - not that low-level typical DD phenomenon) and no reduction or phase rotation in the rear channels, and no RF overmodulation protection. You have to go into the Dolby Digital encoding parameters very specifically to encode something that way, since it certainly isn't the "default" for Dolby Digital encoding. What I'm essentially using in is "raw" mode, since there's no compression or peak limiting in the software to prevent overload. You have to master it carefully, which is what audio mastering engineers are accustomed to. The audio peaks are actually at -.10 db (-1/10th of a db below all 1's).

Dolby Digital has a lot of built-in "protections" which work great on movies, but makes music encoding sound dull and less dynamic unless the normalization, compression, and protections are disabled. It's called "metadata hell". :) .

See http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/18_Metadata.Guide.pdf for an example of what I'm talking about.

...usually has nothing to do with the format that it has been encoded in..
sure, this is what i want to mean too. ;)

i don't like phase rotation too(it's only useful for downmix i think)


i "downmix" the Beatles songs in 5 waves to see the levels and the C channel have more volume than surrounds and (surrounds) more level than L/R(nothing is wrong here)
That demo uses no compression, -31db dialog normalization...You have to go into the Dolby Digital encoding parameters very specifically to encode something that way
(now i'm really scared if my next answer is off topic,please excuse me)
how can i find the level for each channel to apply the dialnorm when encoding AC3 if the new cds are inside the "loudness war" and sounds too loud?
do you have some hint for me?

regards and thanks John

edit: i read your post before you edit it.i know and have this pdf but for musics Dolby.inc parameters are confused. ( lol ) sad but true.
thanks.

As I said in an earlier thread, JorgeLuiz, the way it "sounds" usually has nothing to do with the format that it has been encoded in, it has to do with how well it was encoded. AC3 (and its forerunner AC2) is essentially transparent in its first generation, and professional listeners are hard-pressed (and usually can't tell which is which in controlled studies) to hear any difference between a master tape and the encoded output.
..

That's a pretty controversial statement :) Just witness the raging debate going in the HD DVD forum about the difference between regular DD (AC3) and DD+ at 640Kbs and DD+ at 1.5Kbs. Just to show my colours I am very happy with DD as it is presented on DVD now. I was happy with 384Kbs DD on laserdisc!

Out of interest I presume the DD was coded at 448Kbs as per the DVD spec? I had heard that you can get up to 640Kbs on DVD (as is done in the Pink Floyd Pulse DVD) but that is not strictly within the standards for DVD

Larry

hi Larry :)

yes,it's a controversial statement but read the cool post by sdurani http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8140547&&#post8140547

and later(with big patience) this article by Stuart M.Robinson : http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/hccarticles/techarticles/200105SoundWars/200105SoundWars.php

regards. ;)

Well, I gave it a try and found it quite entertaining. I wish you good fortune in your endeavor and look forward to more!

Thanks very much for posting a link to your endeavour.
I found it wonderfully crisp and clean, and very listenable.

I too wish you much success with this.

That's a pretty controversial statement :)

I agree that it's controversial, but I've been in control rooms in which the Dolby Digital was on one monitor-select button and the original was on the other, had the (world famous) engineer switch between the two, and have the (world famous) producer try to guess which was which. It was a tossup.

Out of interest I presume the DD was coded at 448Kbs as per the DVD spec? I had heard that you can get up to 640Kbs on DVD (as is done in the Pink Floyd Pulse DVD) but that is not strictly within the standards for DVD

I would love to be able to try 640k but all commercial DVD mastering platforms limit it to a 448kb rate, simply refusing to include any .AC3 that is higher than 448.

John, a use for Penteo might be for radio stations. WZLX in Boston , a CBS owned FM, is going to broadcast 5.1 surround of classic rock on its HD2 digital signal using the Neural 5.1 codec.

Thanks to that post, I'm now corresponding (hourly(!)) with Telos in helping them out on this stuff. They are doing it for WZLX turnkey. Thanks, mgpt6!

-John

SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC AND POSSIBLY BORING TO THOSE NOT CONCERNED:

i don't like phase rotation too(it's only useful for downmix i think)
It's used when you want to have an old-fashioned Dolby Matrix Surround decoder send the rears to the rear channels from a matrixed 2-channel medium, since the matrix decoder is looking for stuff that's rotated 90 degrees. I think there's also some thought that rotating the rears 90 degrees actually puts them "in phase" with the fronts since your ear is facing forward. But to my ears, in-phase is in-phase.

i "downmix" the Beatles songs in 5 waves to see the levels and the C channel have more volume than surrounds and (surrounds) more level than L/R(nothing is wrong here)
Ah - reverse enginering! Yes, that's correct. The LR, C, and RR are forming one properly downmixable set of channels and the FL and FR are another. They are two overlapping sets of stereo deriviatives, with the FL and the FR lower in level since they already have their material as a phantom from the LR/C/RR triangle and are just doing the positional support. The C is louder only because it was mixed that way. (And no, none of this is trade secret, its just one of many possible ways of collating the channels into 5.1.)

how can i find the level for each channel to apply the dialnorm when encoding AC3 if the new cds are inside the "loudness war" and sounds too loud?
do you have some hint for me?

DD encoders default to -27db dialnorm, which makes all DD sound 4db quieter (usually more) than normal PCM audio. That drives my housemates crazy since the DD channels off satellite are so much quieter than the PCM ones, and you have to crank up the volume. If it sounds a bit low, just assume that its using the -27db default. Otherwise, when encoding, use -31db and make sure you have no peaks above +32767. (1111111111111111).

SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC AND POSSIBLY BORING TO THOSE NOT CONCERNED:.

I'll unabashedly admit that I have no idea what you two are talking about, but I wouldn't call it boring. It's just a dialect of geek-speak that I'm not familiar with.

Always willing to learn, however, so yammer away!

:)

I'll unabashedly admit that I have no idea what you two are talking about, but I wouldn't call it boring. lol.
John posted magnific explanations.

thank you John.

regards for all

[QUOTE=PenteoSurround]As I said in an earlier thread, JorgeLuiz, the way it "sounds" usually has nothing to do with the format that it has been encoded in, it has to do with how well it was encoded. AC3 (and its forerunner AC2) is essentially transparent in its first generation, and professional listeners are hard-pressed (and usually can't tell which is which in controlled studies) to hear any difference between a master tape and the encoded output.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Realistially speaking, what's the probability that PenteoSurround will achieve any significant popularity with the public and/or recording studios?

Jim

Realistially speaking, what's the probability that PenteoSurround will achieve any significant popularity with the public and/or recording studios?

Jim
Well, it's still just a project in progress for me, but even so, you should be seeing a deployment in retail next year as a test with a major music repackager; I'm doing a couple feature films in which I'm upmixing classic mixes into 5.1, and I'm now working on this surround broadcast format for HD-Radio. Other than that, it's whatever doors open. It seems that when people actually hear it, they're blown away. Have you heard it?

I must be be sick, I listen to this disc all the time. Wish there was more material on it! I now even like the Beatles cut more than the original!

you're not alone cappra. :p i want to trash my collection.
please,"report" my post to George Martin. (lol)

Am I missremembering or did PenteoSurround say that it takes a couple of hours per song to work his magic? There goes the idea of kidnapping him for a week and forcing him to work on my CD collection. If I made him work 10 hours per day on it I would have to feed and house him for 6.5 years! AAAhhhahahahahaha


Ruin

I agree that it's controversial, but I've been in control rooms in which the Dolby Digital was on one monitor-select button and the original was on the other, had the (world famous) engineer switch between the two, and have the (world famous) producer try to guess which was which. It was a tossup.

I have been listening to only DD since I started with laserdiscs a few years ago. My 1G receiver doesn't have DTS and I have never felt like I was missing anything. My new receiver will have DTS of course as well as all the other 6.1 bells and whistles so that will be when I can have a chance to compare




I would love to be able to try 640k but all commercial DVD mastering platforms limit it to a 448kb rate, simply refusing to include any .AC3 that is higher than 448.

Then I wonder how the Pink Floyd Pulse DVD was created since I understand they encoded the DD at 640Kbs.

you're right lchiu7,PF pulse have 448(standard) and 640Kbps.
my 2 standalone players run without problems and i think that all new players can do the same.

:)

Then I wonder how the Pink Floyd Pulse DVD was created since I understand they encoded the DD at 640Kbs.
I'm sure if you have the right tools that you can circumvent the protections in the DVD Authoring programs and do whatever you want.

Am I missremembering or did PenteoSurround say that it takes a couple of hours per song to work his magic? There goes the idea of kidnapping him for a week and forcing him to work on my CD collection. If I made him work 10 hours per day on it I would have to feed and house him for 6.5 years! AAAhhhahahahahaha

It takes a couple hours, sometimes less, sometimes more, depending on how much mastering correction has to be done. Thanks for your kind words. I'm really working on several ways of getting this stuff out to the public, so your wish may come true!

Thanks again,

I hear of a lot of people using Adobe Audition 1.5 to upmix there music into 5.1 surround. Have you used this method? I take it the Penteo method is a lot more involved. I've also listened to the TOUP remixes of various artists. They also do a great job. How is the Penteo Surround different than these efforts?

BTW, I just burned the demo DVD last night for a listen on my main home theater set-up instead of the computer. Very nice! More!!!?

Adobe Audition is an approximation of what I'm doing at the transform/coorelation level - it does parse the pan-positions, but it has audible artifacts which are impossible to eliminate. I actually spend way more time on eliminating artifacts than I do in parsing out the pan positions. When you rip waveforms apart, it's very difficult to make them sound "natural" by making sure there aren't any intersecting parts missing -- and the ear is incredibly sensitive to that.

I haven't heard the TOUP mixes (actually I'd never even heard of them until this -- checking the web site they seem to be underground/grey market and ready for an FBI swoopdown!), but Penteo is entirely legitimate, working with the record companies and retailers to create new, sellable, legitimate product. I'll have to give theirs a listen, though, if I figure out what "trading circles" are.

(Hey, I'm completely clueless as far as the underground music scene, I've always worked in legitimate music/entertainment biz. -- Heck, I'm so scared of the Sony and EMI police swooping down on me I disclaim my disclaimers on my demos. I know those people at 550 Madison in NYC (I wired up the building for long-distance digital audio 10 years ago), and they are not nice. :) )

Is TOUP using Audition or do you know?

-John

I couldn't get this to play on my Denon 5900. It plays the first min. or so, then starts skipping worse and worse as it continues to play.

Played fine on my regular dvd player though.

Anyone else have this problem, any ideas?

I couldn't get this to play on my Denon 5900. It plays the first min. or so, then starts skipping worse and worse as it continues to play.

Played fine on my regular dvd player though.

Anyone else have this problem, any ideas?


If it plays fine on your regular DVD player then one can assume that the iso downloaded fine. In my experience not all players can play all writable formats/disk brands equally well. And some are quite sensitive to the rewriteable formats but handle the write once fine. I would try a different brand of DVD+R/-R and see how that goes

Thanks lchiu7, I tried a different brand, all I could find around the house was an old sony dvd+rw which played fine.

Between each sample, all my wife and I could say was "wow". We thought, how could the next sample top that one? They were all very impressive.

Thanks

Adobe Audition is an approximation of what I'm doing at the transform/coorelation level - it does parse the pan-positions, but it has audible artifacts which are impossible to eliminate. I actually spend way more time on eliminating artifacts than I do in parsing out the pan positions. When you rip waveforms apart, it's very difficult to make them sound "natural" by making sure there aren't any intersecting parts missing -- and the ear is incredibly sensitive to that.

I haven't heard the TOUP mixes (actually I'd never even heard of them until this -- checking the web site they seem to be underground/grey market and ready for an FBI swoopdown!), but Penteo is entirely legitimate, working with the record companies and retailers to create new, sellable, legitimate product. I'll have to give theirs a listen, though, if I figure out what "trading circles" are.

(Hey, I'm completely clueless as far as the underground music scene, I've always worked in legitimate music/entertainment biz. -- Heck, I'm so scared of the Sony and EMI police swooping down on me I disclaim my disclaimers on my demos. I know those people at 550 Madison in NYC (I wired up the building for long-distance digital audio 10 years ago), and they are not nice. :) )

Is TOUP using Audition or do you know?

-John
I don't know anything about TOUP, however if I understand this correctly, you're
saying that it is illegal for folks to convert stereo to multichannel?
Yet that is what you are doing. What makes you different/legal?
Bear in mind I am NOT talking about distribution, only the fact of doing
the conversions from commercially available media. (which would have to be
where you get your source or else you're using bootleg material).
regards,
boondocks

John, thanks for the disk, it was very enjoyable. I would have to say that if I saw a Penteo disk for sale I would pick it up.
The last song does sound a little Joe Jackson-ish. Its a pretty good song . They seem to be missing something though, that I cant put my finger on. I think if they find it, they could be extremely succsesful.


I mounted the .iso with daemon and sent it optically to my receiver via Win dvd and it played perfectly.

I don't know anything about TOUP, however if I understand this correctly, you're
saying that it is illegal for folks to convert stereo to multichannel?
Yet that is what you are doing. What makes you different/legal?
Bear in mind I am NOT talking about distribution, only the fact of doing
the conversions from commercially available media. (which would have to be
where you get your source or else you're using bootleg material).
regards,
boondocks

It's illegal to make ***copies*** of the recordings in any form, whether multichannel or not. By processing the recordings, and capturing the resulting output on another disc, I am technically making a copy.

My own demos are therefore, technically, illegal copies, -- I'm excruciatingly aware of that -- and that's why I make it very clear that they are not for mass distribution for entertainment, but rather only for demonstration of what I can do as a service -- that's why I've only publicly demo'd 5 cuts - each from a different album - and no more, and certainly would never ask for any money or even go so far as to "demo" an entire single album. I've processed hundreds of songs, but you'll never hear them unless a rights holder legally distributes them (or unless you come over to my house :) ).

My customers are the record companies themselves which already own the recordings and hopefully over the next few years will pay me to upconvert their stereo mixes into Penteo, so I certainly don't want to get on their bad side by knocking them out of potential income. :cool:

Make sense?

It's illegal to make ***copies*** of the recordings in any form, whether multichannel or not. By processing the recordings, and capturing the resulting output on another disc, I am technically making a copy.

My own demos are therefore, technically, illegal copies, -- I'm excruciatingly aware of that -- and that's why I make it very clear that they are not for mass distribution for entertainment, but rather only for demonstration of what I can do as a service -- that's why I've only publicly demo'd 5 cuts - each from a different album - and no more, and certainly would never ask for any money or even go so far as to "demo" an entire single album. I've processed hundreds of songs, but you'll never hear them unless a rights holder legally distributes them (or unless you come over to my house :) ).

My customers are the record companies themselves which already own the recordings and hopefully over the next few years will pay me to upconvert their stereo mixes into Penteo, so I certainly don't want to get on their bad side by knocking them out of potential income. :cool:
Make sense?

Okay. I'm not judging, just wanted to hear your take on it.
I certainly do not want to interfere in what you do, and I do not want the
RIAA barking at folks' door for what they do in private.
regards,
boondocks

Any chance someone would be willing to do a B & P, (Blanks & Postage) as I don't have a DVD-burner, so a mere mortal like myself could check out these songs? Would love to hear 'em in surround sound?

PM me if possible

Please & thanks!

Steve

the Penteo sample have round 650Mb then this is what you can do:
after download and extract,right click and extract again.
burn the video_ts folder as mini-dvd(in cdrw for example).

regards.

the Penteo sample have round 650Mb then this is what you can do:
after download and extract,right click and extract again.
burn the video_ts folder as mini-dvd(in cdrw for example).

regards.
Wow - I never knew you could do that. What do you use to burn the Mini-DVD? It's readable by what?

Do DVD players that see a CD that's a CD-ROM that has a VIDEO_TS folder automatically try to think of it as a DVD? I can see that it could be done, I just didn't know that it had been....

OH - never mind - JorgeLuis it doesn't look like that will play on American DVD players from this link: http://www.hamradio.si/~s51kq/V-DVD.HTM

Be nice if it had been built in though...

Wow - I never knew you could do that. What do you use to burn the Mini-DVD? It's readable by what?

Do DVD players that see a CD that's a CD-ROM that has a VIDEO_TS folder automatically try to think of it as a DVD? I can see that it could be done, I just didn't know that it had been....

OH - never mind - JorgeLuis it doesn't look like that will play on American DVD players from this link: http://www.hamradio.si/~s51kq/V-DVD.HTM

Be nice if it had been built in though...

Well it can be done using your PC which I am sure you would have. Check out

http://www.videohelp.com/minidvd.htm

Then if your DVD software on the PC can output 5.1 sound via S/PDIF via your sound card then you can play the samples and experience the 5.1 sound.

From a personal perspective, I really enjoyed the samples, especially the Beatles track. Though it would have been nice if the Left Channel, Right Channel intro could have been limited to the first track :( It became a bit tiresome after a while

Larry

@ Penteosurround

hi John. :)
Wow - I never knew you could do that. What do you use to burn the Mini-DVD? It's readable by what?
Do DVD players that see a CD that's a CD-ROM that has a VIDEO_TS folder automatically try to think of it as a DVD?YES!
work in all standalones players that i know(i'm technician),i have 2 and i only use mini-dvd with menus ... from 512 to 640Kbps-AC3-5.1! :cool:
no matter if you use 6 * RCA(if the standalone have DD 5.1 decoder built-in),coaxial or optical.
you can put lots in mini-dvds because AC3(as you know)have short size.

when i download your sample,i see that the menu have too big size,i do with few size and using the desired picture for each album,music and track name,album,compositor.
you did the menu too big. (lol) you can make it short.

OH - never mind - JorgeLuis it doesn't look like that will play on American DVD players from this link...have "something wrong" with the explanations in this link,trust me...is not outdated? (2001)
new players(2 years old or newer) can play easily.
burn one sample in mini-dvd with menu for test,i'm sure that will work in your standalone player or HT with decoder.
tell us the result!
;)

regards

edit:
i forgot: use nero to burn or any other with mini-dvd option!

From a personal perspective, I really enjoyed the samples, especially the Beatles track. Though it would have been nice if the Left Channel, Right Channel intro could have been limited to the first track :( It became a bit tiresome after a while

Larry

I don't want it to be too entertaining :) . It's supposed to be a technical demonstration only...!
Sorry for the, ahem, annoyance. :).

when i download your sample,i see that the menu have too big size,i do with few size and using the desired picture for each album,music and track name,album,compositor.
you did the menu too big. (lol) you can make it short.

Yeah, the menu is actually video encoded at a higher MPEG data rate than the program video! I could have left out the video except that I wanted to make it more of a 'normal' experience.

This has been a very informative thread, thanks guys.

Thanks for this. I am going to listen to it very carefully over the next week or so and post back. (Everyone say, "Okay who cares?").

I have listened to this selection of songs a few times now and like it a lot. Very nice job! I tried to burn it to a CD-R first since it is such a small file, but the result didn't play for me so I burned it to a DVD-R and it worked fine. Admittedly I haven't gotten a handle on recording music using a PC DVD/CD writer so I suspect writing to the cheaper media is possible, just that in my old age I don't have the patience apparently to get a handle on some things that don't just immediately work for me.

Chris

As far as the discussion about Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS compared to high resolution surround, count me in the group that believes the lossy formats can be close enough be virtually indistinguishable. I still buy high resolution when possible, just in case equipment upgrades in the future make the difference more important. I listen to DVD-A, SACD, and DVD-V without complaint when I like the music. Despite the floundering surround music market, I still find enough music that money is more of a problem than selection regarding my purchases.

Chris

@ Guy R
(Everyone say, "Okay who cares?").in one friendly forum everybody cares,go ahead and enjoy. :)

@ Chris Gerhard
I tried to burn it to a CD-R first since it is such a small file, but the result didn't play for mei burn the PenteoSurround samples as mini-dvd and i do lots of mini-dvds with AC3-5.1 (448K~640k).only few players don't work(rare cases).if your standalone is "not so old",try again and tell us.

As far as the discussion about Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS compared to high resolution surround, count me in the group that believes the lossy formats can be close enough be virtually indistinguishable.amazing description,i agree with you.the most important is the quality of the source and the dedication in the whole process. ;)
the treatment done in the Beatles music in the sample sounds better(even in stereo) than my cda,then i can say that lossy is one "state of mind" and depend of the general quality of the source and treatment done. (sorry to be redundant..).
i have only one DTS(Beatles-Revolver) and is fantastic...i can't call it lossy,because i know Beatles when i was young and when i hear this DTS i still stay "freezed...with hipnotic feelings" (lol) if you know what i mean.

ragards all
:)

Just a current status update: I've spent nearly two weeks developing a multiplexer for Penteo file distribution in the new Axia format for radio stations. Omnia/Telos/Axia is designing the radio station equipment of the future, which with HD radio, includes surround sound. The format which they have settled on is 48/24 PCM for internal storage. That's right, all audio in the radio station storage system they're designing will be hi-rez, at least inside the station. Right now the IBOC HD-Radio system doesn't have much bandwidth for digital surround, but apparently their system works quite well since in music there's so much channel redundancy most of the time.

See www.telos-systems.com and look under "Tech Talk" -> "Killer App".

Penteo,

Somewhere around here you asked what people wanted to hear in surround, and pondered wether or not people wanted to be surrounded.

I have done a fair amount of listening the last few weeks playing with stereo, direct stereo, Dolby PLII, and DTS Neo 6, as well as relistening to your demo disk.

I have to say that for music, and especially jazz and classical which in my head should match the live performances (since I have been to plenty of live jazz clubs and symphonies), I find myself prefering DTS Neo 6 for "upmixing"2 channel into surround. The DTS Neo 6 processing leaves the FL and FR untouched and uses the center and surrounds to add space. I have found the Dolby PLII tends to toss too much to the surrounds so that instruments that in my head should be in front of me end up behind me too much. I have yet to have that happen with Neo 6. The Neo 6 effect is much more subtle. It widens and deepens the front soundstage through use of the center channel, and adds subtle instrumental and atmosphere to the rears that to me could easily be natural reflections from a concert hall. It is really impressive. I was listening to some fine classical works last night with Itshak Pearlman and Yo Yo Ma and I was transported into the concert hall in a way that the straight 2 channel failed to do.

I don't know if you have listened to the DTS Neo 6 processing of 2 channel, but give it a listen and you will get a sense of what I like out of currently available surround systems.

I really do like your Pento stuff, but to me it still places a bit too much in the surround channels for my taste. I really liked it compared to Dolby PLII, but I had not really listened to the Neo 6 much at that time. Now that I have, the DTS Neo 6 is the winner for me.

Anyone else use Neo 6 and enjoy it?

Ruin

Just an update since this thread has kindof gone limp: I am in the middle of processing a large number of classic rock hits for the debut of WZLX in its prototype HDRadio Surround broadcast testing. This is entirely thanks to this very thread, and a message by mgpt6. Keep an eye on the www.wzlx.com website; there may be a surround stream on there at some point prior to there being actual surround HDRadio receivers. No, there aren't any yet!

Congrats Penteo. Good luck with it!

Ruin

Congrats Penteo. Good luck with it!

Ruin
the same here John and for your future projects too!
who hear Penteo can bet in you.
:)

John, any new word on the WZLX project? Any other new devlopments with Penteo?

I've completed the first 40 for WZLX. They are:


M0054 AC/DC You Shook Me All night Long
M0137 Allman Brothers Band Jessica
M0021 Beatles While my Guitar gently weeps
M0122 Boston Foreplay/Long Time
M0018 Eric Clapton Let it Rain
M0062 Doors Light my fire
M0053 J. Geils Must Have Got Lost (Live!)
M0241 Jimi Hendrix All Along the Watchtower
M0094 Led Zeppelin Kashmir
M0102 Led Zeppelin Whole lotta love
M0006 Lynyrd Skynyrd Free Bird
M0320 Tom Petty Free Falling
M0058 Pink Floyd Comfortably Numb
M0278 Pink Floyd Wish you were Here
M0039 Rolling Stones Gimmee Shelter
M0259 Rolling Stones Tumblin Dice
M0114 Bob Seger Against the Wind
M0095 Steppenwolf Born to Be Wire
M0075 U2 Where the Streets Have No Name
M0120 U2 New Years day
M0090 Van Halen Jump
M0436 Van Halen Panama
M0100 The Who Won't Get Fooled Again
M0040 Yes I've Seen all good people
M0255 Warren Zevon Werewolves of London
M0292 ZZ Top La Grange
M0121 Allman Bros. Ramblin man
M0081 Blue oyster Cult Don't fear the Reaper
M0211 Eric Clapton Cocaine
M0197 Doors Break on through
M0291 Fleetwood Mac Go your Own Way
M0031 Led Zeppelin Stairway to Heaven
M1105 The Who Who Are You
M0003 Boston Don't Look Back
M0064 Cars Just What I Needed
M1469 Pretenders Mystery Achievement
M0425 Peter Gabriel Sledgehammer
M0262 Bob Dylan Like A Rolling Stone
M0010 Beatles Hey Jude
M0082 The Who Baba O'Riley

The results are spectacular. I wish I could show them off to you all! I'd like to convince a record remarketer to release them as a K-Tel type product. Makes a great stocking stuffer!!

-John

When will WZLX get their surround music station airborn?

Chris

John, do you know if ZLX has archived stuff that has been released already in 5.1 like, Pink Floyd's "dark Side of the Moon, Bob Dylan's Blood on the Tracks, neil Young's Harvest or any other Classic Rock album that has been released on SACD or DVD-A over the last 5years?

John, do you know if ZLX has archived stuff that has been released already in 5.1 like, Pink Floyd's "dark Side of the Moon, Bob Dylan's Blood on the Tracks, neil Young's Harvest or any other Classic Rock album that has been released on SACD or DVD-A over the last 5years?

Yes, they have it all. That's why the list of the 40 that I have done should be called "the 40 biggest classic rock hits not yet released in surround."... :)

As far as when, I don't know. Of course there are no HDRadio Surround receivers yet, but I understand that streaming in aacPlus Surround may happen first. Stay tuned.

John: anything new on the Penteo front. Blog has been quiet.

I've completed the first 40 (okay 42) cuts. I had to do 42 because of a clerical error on their end. I truly wish I could send you all DVDs of the final product. I did make some, but for obvious reasons I can't send them out except to people in the business.

I've worked to essentially eliminate all artifacts. The cuts sound incredible. I just listened to several of them down at Magnolia HiFi in Emeryville on several high-end systems.

I don't yet know about the HDRadio Surround timeline; I wouldn't be surprised if it's something you might see NEXT Christmas, since these are the basis for the first on-air tests.

Stay Tuned.

-John

What a loss I'm at! I have tried from multiple computers and locations to access the zip file, but each time I've tried I recieved a 401 authorization error. Has the file been removed? I can not get enough of surround music and the idea of being able to download made my face go ' :eek: '. Another attempt another day...

I haven't seen anything new in a while from PenteoSurround and don't think any links to downloads are still valid. Has anybody heard anything new?

Chris

:)
hi John.
please,can you repost the same samples of the first thread again?
i lost mine samples....:mad:

regards.

:)
hi John.
please,can you repost the same samples of the first thread again?
i lost mine samples....:mad:

regards.

The current demos are online at www.penteosurround.com... I'm about to post a Sontrio (3-point for dance clubs) demo next week.

John,
I was wondering if Sirius or XM have the capability to broadcast in surround? Maybe their merger will free up bandwidth if that is part of the problem. I have burned some of your samples to DVD-A and they sound great in my wife's car.
Her 2008 Cadilac CTS has a surround system that sounds terrific playing DVD-A's. I sure wish there was a way to get broadcast surround.

XM does do some surround music on Fine Tuning and the Classics channel btw.

XM does do some surround music on Fine Tuning and the Classics channel btw.

We had some discussions about this. XM is using the Neural encoder, which actually broadcasts in highly compressed stereo, which is subsequently "decoded" back into surround.

AFAIK, XM nor Sirius has ever dedicated any bandwidth to more than two channels, highly compressed ones at that. Apparently they don't think the demand for high-quality surround is there yet.

We had some discussions about this. XM is using the Neural encoder, which actually broadcasts in highly compressed stereo, which is subsequently "decoded" back into surround.

AFAIK, XM nor Sirius has ever dedicated any bandwidth to more than two channels, highly compressed ones at that. Apparently they don't think the demand for high-quality surround is there yet.

My hope is that they might show an interest based on the following events:
1. Increasing availability of car audio surround sytems.
2. Increased bandwith available due to merger.
3. Availability of programming in surround based on Penteo technology.
4. Desire to meet competition from upcoming broadcast sources that will provide surround programing.
5. The sun, moon and stars will all perfectly align.:rolleyes:

I ran into this technology while I was reading about the Watchmen movie and wanted to check it out. It seems the links are dead, so I guess I'll have to go see the movie to hear what this can do :(

Hey Chris,

We pulled down the demos mostly because our technology is better now and they were using some of our older processing. I'm putting together some more stuff that should be up soon.

If you want to hear what Penteo can do, yeah, go see the movie, and especially listen to "Hallelujah", "Ride of the Valkyries" (the classical piece when Dr. Manhattan is in Vietnam), and Jimi Hendrix's "Watchtower".

We also did several other songs, including "Sounds of Silence". That one was somewhat different since we broke that out into components, and Chris essentially remixed it so that it was a bit more conventional.

Thanks for asking.

Ah, to have 5.0/5.1 in hi def broadcast!
One can wish. I remember the Tampa station that used to broadcast in SQ way back when. Little bright, but a beginning, I thought at the time.
I guess AAC would be as good as the currently (over) compressed BS on the radio now in my area.

Anyway, best to you John. I'm still turning out my conversions as well. :)

Ah, to have 5.0/5.1 in hi def broadcast!
One can wish. I remember the Tampa station that used to broadcast in SQ way back when. Little bright, but a beginning, I thought at the time.
I guess AAC would be as good as the currently (over) compressed BS on the radio now in my area.

Anyway, best to you John. I'm still turning out my conversions as well. :)

Thanks so much. I did repost a DVD demo of the material from the film at
http://www.penteosurround.com/Focused_Email.html

Thanks so much. I did repost a DVD demo of the material from the film at
http://www.penteosurround.com/Focused_Email.html

I'll have to check this one out. I still use that early demo of yours from time to time, the one with CSN&Y, Beatles, etc on it. When I change my analog cables between players I sometimes wonder if I hooked the cables up correct, so I stick it in because it has the channel assignments on the demo. Plus I get to listen to the tunes. I see the Watchman soundtrack for sale, any word if they'll do a dvd with the surround mixes?

listened to the film demo ===>> sounds great!

I see the Watchman soundtrack for sale, any word if they'll do a dvd with the surround mixes?

listened to the film demo ===>> sounds great!

My guess (and that's all it is) is that the DVD and BluRay will have the Penteo 5.1 versions as in the film.