well, i'm one step closer to getting this thing built now. changed my plans of building a sonotube enclosure, i'm too impatient and don't really have the time to put into it. i've had my sub sitting on my bar merely 10ft from my couch starring me down for about the past week or two and i can't take it anymore. i'm working too much right now to even go get the sonotube, let alone the mdf, cutting, painting, sanding ect, ect..... so, i went the lazier and faster route by means of the Dayton prebuilt box from PE. i'd like to have done the sono design for something a bit different, but i have no probs with a nice big cube sitting in the corner.

in any event, i think i will be quite happy with the finished product.

i ordered
-3cuft dayton enclosure
-2 bags of acousta-stuf polyfill
-set of dayton chrome spiked feet
-pair of dayton doubled ended spring loaded binding post

parts i've already got
-driver is a eclipse sw8200 http://www.eclipse-web.com/sw8000/sw8200.html
-amp is a crest cpx900

will keep you guys posted on progress, try to snap a couple pics of the install and of coarse give my impressions on the finished product. thanks a million to all you guys who've guided me thus far in terms of driver selection, enclosures, as well as invaluable knowledge. i wouldnt have made it this far without you and it's much appreciated!!!

That is the beauty of DIY, if at the end you are not 100% satisfied you can go back and try another option. Your Sub seems to be very good for both Car and HT application and at a good price for all its features.

Good luck and keep us posted.

I think it is recommended that you add a bit of bracing to the standard PE subwoofer enclosure to mak eit a bit more rigid.

Hey, looking good! I just read this on your driver http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4147 Seems like a winner ;) Although Kyle says there was a misallignment issue with the tested driver Bl still looks extremely linear.

thanks guys. steve, what extra bracing would be required and how in the heck would i go about getting it in there? do the PE enclosures dissasemble?

If the baffle doesn't come off, you're in trouble lol :p Yeah, the baffle should be removable, as you have to make your own driver cutout.

I don't believe the baffle is removeable..at least nothing suggests that it is.

I don't believe the baffle is removeable..at least nothing suggests that it is.
that was my take as well. i just figured you marked your hole, jigsawed it out, stuffed it, ect, ect. hooked it up. to my knowledge the baffle is not removable.

that was my take as well. i just figured you marked your hole, jigsawed it out, stuffed it, ect, ect. hooked it up. to my knowledge the baffle is not removable.

Yeah, thats what I have always thought.

It doesn't come apart. There is a thread somewhere with someone adding bracing, and they had to cut it just right to get it though the driver cut-out. It might have been at HTG. ?

well, good grief, that's a big part of why i bought the PE box. i figured it would be sufficiently braced.

You'll probably be fine without the added bracing however adding more wouldn't hurt. Make sure you have lots of acoustic stuffing, this thing needs as much Vb as possible.

i figured it would be sufficiently braced. There is no such thing in DIY. :D It isn't nessesary, but it couldn't hurt either.

i may try adding some bracing if i can do it without a lot of difficulty. as to the stuffing, i bought 2 lbs of the acoustastuff. that should be enough shouldn't it. i'm going for a volume of 3.6 cuft, which is what kyle (tcsounds) recommended to me. the acousta recommends .5lb per 1cuft.

alrighty, parts are suppose to be in tomorrow. i think i'll stop by the parental units abode and rob my dads cordless drill and his jigsaw. not sure i'll actually get started on it tomorrow night, but i very well may as i'm ready to see what that clips will do.

with that said, any installation advice from you gurus? any commonly overlooked details? anything i should do to make the enclosure airtight? as always, much appreciated fellas.

well, i got the sub all put together today. didn't take too long. as this is my first sealed sub i didn't know exactly what to expect. i might have been happier with a llt or regular vented enclosure as the output of this thing is not as much as i was hoping for. i was really dissapointed at first because the output was less than the 10" onkyo sub that came with the htib system. however, i don't have all the port noise that came with the onkyo.

i dunno, i threw a older 10 band eq in there and boosted the lower a bit which helped some. but still i was expecting a lot more. to achieve the levels i'm looking to get i'd prolly have to build 3 more.

also, i can't hardly even turn up the gain (bout 1/5) on the crest before auto clipping function kicks in. but even at that level i can notice the lights in the kitchen dimming a bit. from what i gather i shouldn't port this sub as it's not suited for it. any ideas guys? i'm either gonna have to build a few more of these, or build a massive critter like stevecallas' and some other members.

heres some pics i took today.
arrival
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211547_00091.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211549_00092.jpg
just unwrapped
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211552_00095.jpg
making a hole
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211614_00098.jpg
installing spikes
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211727_00100.jpg
installing binding post
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211655_00099.jpg
snugging her down
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211757_00104.jpg
finishing up
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211804_00105.jpg
clips sitting next to the onkyo
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/200608211807_00107.jpg

also, i can't hardly even turn up the gain (bout 1/5) on the crest before auto clipping function kicks in. but even at that level i can notice the lights in the kitchen dimming a bit. from what i gather i shouldn't port this sub as it's not suited for it.

Something isn't right. Are you sure your amp is in good condition and has zero problems? That driver should take a lot of power, and output fairly high levels, even in a sealed setup.

To clear things up, you are running the CPX900 in bridged mode, using the Channel A input, and the bridge outputs, right?

I don't think you have it wired properly. It should be putting out ~900W, and with that much power, the Eclipse should be moving pretty dang good.

yup, bridged. unless i have the driver hooked up incorrectly as the manual (what i thought was the manual) doesn't address the proper way to hook it up in bridged mode. i'm pretty sure the amp is in good condition. the GCL led comes on during bass heavy sceenes and the clips is huffing and puffing as if it's getting plenty of power. i've tried it with the GCL turned off, tried it in stereo mode utilizing only one channel. everything i can think of. it does ok, but not what i expected. perhaps i have something set wrong, but i can't imagine what.

(edit) - huh, well, i just actually found the owners manual in a pdf. all this time i must have been looking at the spec sheet pdf thinking it was the owners manual (i sure thought it was a piss poor owners manual, ha. instead, i'm just an idiot).

heres the link, i'm going to peruse it right now to make sure i have everything right.

http://www.crestaudio.com/media/pdf/CPX_manual.pdf

Yeah, I just downloaded it as well. What puzzles me, is that the manual tells you that for a bridged-sub setup, you should turn on the low cut filter for channel a, as well as the bridge-mode switch.

Eitherway...experiement, check out the manual, because there has to be something wrong. If the Eclipse had 900W of power running through it, "output" shouldn't be a problem. Extension, sure, but not output.

well, i just read it and it looks that i have it all hooked up right. i tried switching the phase, made no difference. i didn't turn on the low cut filter, sounds like that's for pro speakers. i dunno, i still have the gain set to approx 1/5 and the gcl light will still come on durring bass scenes. the eclipse is moving like crazy and the output isn't terrible, just less than i want. perhaps i'm just expecting more than it's capable of.

well, i just read it and it looks that i have it all hooked up right. i tried switching the phase, made no difference. i didn't turn on the low cut filter, sounds like that's for pro speakers. i dunno, i still have the gain set to approx 1/5 and the gcl light will still come on durring bass scenes. the eclipse is moving like crazy and the output isn't terrible, just less than i want. perhaps i'm just expecting more than it's capable of.

I went through the same thing, an SPL meter will measure what you need better than your ears can. It could be you are just used to distorted bass. Clean bass has alot less impact than you would expect.

i have a radioshack analog spl meter. what kind of spl do you get out of your subs? do i set it to A or C weighting? i through away the manual for it long ago when i bought it, not a wise move. i've always set it to C scale with calibrating the sub though.

What receiver are you using? Have you tried lowering the sub pre-out level?

At this stage you may not have it configured just right, but in the end, I think the results will still be similar if not the same. Not a whole lotta output and the amp will be clipping every now and then. You gotta give the horses a rest before climbing the hill ;)

You'll probably wanna try removing the ELF LT circuit first to see if the regular sealed output will be passable, though I think even that might be kinda weak.

If you can salvage some money from this project, I'd definitely go LLT - keep the amp. I bet the sound quality will be a lot better than what you are imagining too. What's your budget?

ht-r530. yeah, i've tried maximum gain on the crest and low output on the lfe of the reciever, visa versa and then a medium. it was set on +10db on the reciever and then the 1/5 on the crest. i just bumped the crest up to 1/2 and recalibrated the reciever which changed to -5db.

i kind of went through this a long time ago, around age 14 when i got my infinity bu-2 sub. at first i thought it sucked, cause i cranked it all the way up and it was distorted and what not. after i set it up a bit, it sounded a lot better.

however, i've grown a bit and didn't start maxed out. this sub is doing ok, but i want a whole lot more. i seriously would probably need 3 or 4 to get where i'm wanting. 2 might cut it, but i dunno. i may just need to start over with a 15" design.

You'll probably wanna try removing the ELF LT circuit first to see if the regular sealed output will be passable, though I think even that might be kinda weak.

If you can salvage some money from this project, I'd definitely go LLT - keep the amp. I bet the sound quality will be a lot better than what you are imagining too. What's your budget?
what's the ELF LT circuit?

budget wise, well, i have around $600 wrapped up into this. so somewhere around that total, provided i tackle a different design. one more identical sub powered by my current amp would run me around another $400.

Steve - He is using an ELF LT circuit? I thought it was a regular sealed sub. If he is using an LT circuit, then it makes more sense why his amp is clipping so much.

And, IIRC, it is better to keep the output on the receiver lower, but the amp gain higher.

Oops, my fault, I confused him for Habs4Life. So many new project threads that I am slipping a bit :D

Oops, my fault, I confused him for Habs4Life. So many new project threads that I am slipping a bit :D
pull it together man! :D

the driver moves like crazy, i can't imagine it not having greater output. i still have a half of a bag of acousta stuff, but i can't imagine tossing that in there helping much.

(edit) - i kicked the output on the reciever down to -7db and cut back the output on the crest to bout 1/3 cause the amp was shutting down in some bass heavy scenes in batman begins.

What kind of levels are you reading, using your SPL meter? To be honest, I think that your amp just isn't enough for that driver.

how do i need to check it? with just the sub running? scale set to C?

popped in the matrix. in the first scene where they are cuffing trinity, recievers main volume set to 70 (80 is the max), spl meter set to C scale and slow it ran up to around 106db.

Where is the sub located in your room? Sitting it away from any bounderies is a serious no-no here. You'll want to try and corner load this thing. If possible place it next to two strong walls along the front of your soundstage (sometimes the rear works better depending on the room). If its an option, tell us if there are any improvements ;)

already in the corner. thanks though.

D'oh! :(

Tha amp specs as:
180W 8 ohms stereo

300W 4 ohms stereo

450W 2 ohms stereo

600W 8 ohms bridged

900W 4 ohms bridged.

These numbers look a little to right. It sounds like the amp really doesn't like the 2ohm load.

The 12" driver is rated at 670W, so you should still be OK.

How far away were you measuring from? We need a number 2 inches from the driver and at your seat.

You might want to try removing a 1/2lb of stuffing just to make sure it isn't over
stuffed.

Have you tried turning the GCL off?

popped in the matrix. in the first scene where they are cuffing trinity, recievers main volume set to 70 (80 is the max), spl meter set to C scale and slow it ran up to around 106db.

That's great readings, try tunning some sweeps and make a FR graph.

Tha amp specs as:
180W 8 ohms stereo

300W 4 ohms stereo

450W 2 ohms stereo

600W 8 ohms bridged

900W 4 ohms bridged.

These numbers look a little to right. It sounds like the amp really doesn't like the 2ohm load.

The 12" driver is rated at 670W, so you should still be OK.

How far away were you measuring from? We need a number 2 inches from the driver and at your seat.

You might want to try removing a 1/2lb of stuffing just to make sure it isn't over
stuffed.

Have you tried turning the GCL off?

i was measuring from my seat approx 12ft away. what 2ohm load are you speaking of? the driver is rated at 4ohms. i have tried turning of the gcl a few times, no difference. i'll try to get you the 2inch reading later. i'm going to pull the driver, remove a 1/2lb of stuffing and then try to really "fluff" up the remaining stuffing.

That's great readings, try tunning some sweeps and make a FR graph.
so i'm getting good results, cause they sound okay, just not loud enough. where do i obtain the tuning sweeps?

i'd like to make a graph via roomeq wizard, but i keep getting an error message saying "your java vm needs to be upgraded before this program can be run." i've updated java with the link the error message supplied and still no go.

When bridged to a 4ohm driver each amp channel gets half the load, so each channel is ran at 2ohm.

so does the am essentially take the 450x2 @2ohms and put it in series to create a 900x1@4ohm? in any event, the amp is rated for 2ohms, but i suppose that doesnt mean that it would handle it well.

I'm assuming the 106db was the sub only without the mains.

so does the am essentially take the 450x2 @2ohms and put it in series to create a 900x1@4ohm? in any event, the amp is rated for 2ohms, but i suppose that doesnt mean that it would handle it well. Yeah, pretty much. I think I have two threads mixxed up though. I thought your amp was the one that shut off with Batman. I think you are fine bridged wise.

it did kick out the amp a few times in batman begins.

I'm assuming the 106db was the sub only without the mains.
no, mains too. that was i was wondering, if ya'll run your mains with it or not during testing. i'll unhook the mains and see what it does.

I'm just going to throw some stuff out there, it might be useful it might not.

With a single 12" driver you are usually limited to 110-113db max. With the speaker in the corner you should be able to get an extra 9-18db. At 12ft it should take about 800w to generate a 106db signal at your seat without room or boundary gain with a 89 db 1w/1m driver. The Inverse Square Law teaches us that for every doubling of the distance from the sound source in a free field situation, the sound intensity will diminish by 6 decibels.


Here is a tone generator, please use the sine waves only sine wave generator (http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/tnsetupOld.exe)

ok, retested. same scene of matrix. C weight, slow response on spl meter. sub only, main reciever volume at 63 (80max). ~104db at approx 12ft (couch) and 126+db (meter tached out) at the ~2-3inch position.

104dB from a single 12" sealed sub, from over 3.5 meters away is nothing to laugh at.

Try what soho suggested.

ok, got the generator. it works fine, pretty neat tool too. what do you want readings of?

also, i already pulled out the driver, and reapplied the stuffing as per the instructions (i really should read those things more often) stated to do. however, it's made no real difference. i think i may pull the driver again and remove a considerable amount of stuffing to see what effect it has.

ok, got the generator. it works fine, pretty neat tool too. what do you want readings of? 80hz, 60hz, 40hz, and 20hz from up close. Without the amp clipping. Remember to only play the tones in short bursts (few secs) at a time.

however, it's made no real difference. i think i may pull the driver again and remove a considerable amount of stuffing to see what effect it has. No need. If you didn't notice anything the first time it was fine to begin with.

ok, i'll get those readings here real quick. do you want the maximum that it will produce at each freq before audible distortion or keep the same volume setting for all different freqs.

and as for the stuffing, i didn't remove any the first time but rather rearranged it. originally it was all just kind of laying in there. i then read the magical instructions, happened to actually have some spray adhesive (not sure where that came from) and then applied it to all the walls except the front wall on which the driver mounts.

keep the same volume setting for all different freqs. Yes.

Also just pick a volume right before the amp clips at 40hz and use that volume for all measurements, or something similar.

-all reading taken approx 3-4 inches from driver
-signal was started and volume was slowly increased until meter would read no higher or distortion was heard.

-80hz-126+db (pushed the needle as far as it would go)
-60hz-same results as 80hz
-40hz-Same results as previous two
-20hz- ~124-126db 124db was pretty clean sounding, 126db showed some distortion

It looks like you are driving that 12" for all it's worth. :D

second set, same distance volume on reciever set to 61 (80 max), crest gain set to 1 notch below 1/2.

-80hz-124db
-60hz-126db+ (meter tached out)
-40hz-126db+ (meter tached out)
-20hz-118db

Can you do the second set again from your seat?

It looks like you are driving that 12" for all it's worth. :D
ha, i aint skeered.

readings from seat (front of sub cabinet to my head is approx 13ft)
reciever volume- 61 (80max)
crest volume- 1 notch below 1/2

-80hz- 96db
-60hz- 108db
-40hz- 99.5db
-20hz - 98db

That sounds like pretty impressive performance to me...honestly.

You should try room-eq and run a sweep to see what kind of FR you are getting.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Does the HTIB sub still work? If so hook it back up and run it thought the same test.

That sounds like pretty impressive performance to me...honestly.

You should try room-eq and run a sweep to see what kind of FR you are getting.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
i have roomeq downloaded and have installed java, but when i try to install roomeq i get this......

"Your Java VM needs to be upgraded before this program can run"
"Would you like detailed help"
i click yes, it takes me to a page, i downloaded java AGAIN, install it. same friggin thing. i can't get it to work and it's starting to make me teste. ha, i said teste.

Does the HTIB sub till work? If so hook it back up and run it thought the same test.
hahaha. well, i haven't run it throught the same test, but i did toy with it a moment and there is a big difference. the poor thing pretty much begins to dissapear at i think it was around 40hz. i'll run it though, just for poo's and giggles.

here we go......

onkyo piece-o-crap sub (doesn't contain original driver, swapped it out for a 10" street edge i believe it is, $50 car sub. still better than the original)

reciever volume at 53 (80max)
sub amp gain at 1/2
measurements taken from seating position approx 13ft away

80hz - 92db
60hz - 112db (considerable distortion)
40hz - 93db (lots of port noise)
20hz - 96db (port noise)

when i used this sub it was not uncommon at all to feel large gushes of air sweep over you from the port during heavy bass scenes.

Now the question is, "does the new sub sound better now?"

of coarse it is much better than the onkyo, which i now see and hear during a a/b comparison. but, it still isn't providing me with the punch in the face, knee to the nuts bass i'm wanting. i will have to build another and perhaps another after that to achieve the levels i want. i want theater levels, concert levels, really, really loud levels of bass.

i also intend to update the mains, but i want to get the bass where i want it for now. i'm still mulling over building mains or purchasing some. i may go buy some insignia's just to tide me over for a while until i build/buy the speakers i really want.

(edit)-also, i unistalled java, reinstalled and am now updating it fully. hopefully room-eq will install and i'll be able to turn out some graphs. they will be completely useless to me as i understand them as much as i do the chinese language. but, they look pretty and you guys can interpret them. :)

You just need to build a big LLT sub, dude. That amp puts out more than enough power for a 15" LLT...and it would provide some kickass output, even down to 15Hz.

But you might not have the space for it in your room.

You just need to build a big LLT sub, dude. That amp puts out more than enough power for a 15" LLT...and it would provide some kickass output, even down to 15Hz.

But you might not have the space for it in your room.
oh i have the space, and if i don't i'll knock out a wall to get it. :) seriously though, setup is in a 20x20 room and has a nice 4ftx4ft square of space in the front right corner for a sub.

plus, i don't know what in the heck i'd do with my sub now that it's built.

Doooooo it..dooooo it. That amp already puts out 900W into 4ohms, so just get a driver+build an enclosure, and you'll be set.

Just sell this sub, or use it in another setup like a bedroom system.

I never asked...but is the bass at least pretty musical/tight?

i want theater levels, concert levels, really, really loud levels of bass.Why didn't you say this 6 threads ago? That's going to take a few 12"s. You are only going to get 3-6db extra per additional driver.

it's hard to say for me. i'd have to sat down and listen some more. it is distortion free at pretty much everything except really loud levels of very bass heavy passages. and it may not even be the subs fault, but rather the amps inability to keep up. i can't say, perhaps it the fact that it's reproducing the music more accurately than the boomy onkyo and that fact coupled with this being my first sealed sub that i'm adjusting to. i just don't notice it's presence as much as i'd like to in the songs which again relates to it's low output (in my opinion).

Why didn't you say this 6 threads ago? That's going to take a few 12"s. You are only going to get 3-6db extra per additional driver.
my bad.


and on a slightly different note. does anyone know of a good fan to swap into the crest. when it kicks into "high" mode, the thing is louder than the fan/s on my jvc g1000 projector (which i'm sitting right beneath!!!)


(edit)- i'm sitting here listening to foo fighers double disc album, can't think of the name but it's the one that has "best of you" on it and one cd is acoustic. i'm listening to the acoustic disc and the sub sounds nice, not as loud as i want, but very nice. a few more might make their presence known enough that i'd start to grin. and i have to say, for htib speakers these little onkyo bookshelfs do pretty well. but i know there are much better ones out there. i havent ever heard any supurb quality speakers. only stuff like klipsch, infinity, yamaha etc. etc..... so that may also affect my opinion due to the lack of comparison.

boo ya!!! room-eq is working now, which does me no good because i haven't a clue how to use it.

my bad. Nah, you just would have been steered away from the 12" drivers 2 months ago. Steve tried to get you to do a 15" LLT way back when, remember. It really sucks that you still need more output. Now you have a tough decision to make. Can you lower the <25hz levels and boost the 60-80hz range with your EQ? That might help.

much as i'd like to in the songs which again relates to it's low output


But you have already posted quite a few measurements showing exactly the opposite. ~100dB at 13ft is not bad at all.

I think that:
i can't say, perhaps it the fact that it's reproducing the music more accurately than the boomy onkyo and that fact coupled with this being my first sealed sub that i'm adjusting to." is far more likely.

is far more likely.

Nah, you just would have been steered away from the 12" drivers 2 months ago. Steve tried to get you to do a 15" LLT way back when, remember. It really sucks that you still need more output. Now you have a tough decision to make. Can you lower the <25hz levels and boost the 60-80hz range with your EQ? That might help.
yeah, i know. i just wanted to try something other than a ported enclosure and since i had a 10" that was doing pretty decent i figured the 12" would rock out plenty. already used all the gain i have out of the eq.

But you have already posted quite a few measurements showing exactly the opposite. ~100dB at 13ft is not bad at all.

I think that:


is far more likely.
prolly right.

What are the bands on your EQ?

Do you usually listen at these kind of levels?

How do you calibrate the system? Level match the speakers I mean. Do you usually run the sub hot?

the only three that are usable are 125hz, ~63hz, ~31hz. i generally run the sub a bit hot. and yeah, when i watch a movie, i generally have it cranked up pretty good.

i am half way considering a crest cpx2600 to try on this thing. this amp kicks out when bridged at 4ohm. i was just listening to music at not very loud levels at all and the friggin amp would kick out. so i tried just going to one channel in stereo mode. it hasn't kicked out but it obviously takes more gain and the quality of sound seems to have suffered quite a bit. i just wonder what a 2200w@4ohm bridged cpx2600 would do with it.

Play with it for a week or so before you start thinking about changing things. It reads like you have a very impressive sub. ( not talking about the amp)

Unfortunately, you are a bass head, and no one realized it in time. I have two 15"s sitting in my floor right now,and am contemplating two more. I already have two 12"s per main, so I know the bass head pain. :D

I would also recommend against buying hold over main speakers. It never works out well.

i am half way considering a crest cpx2600 to try on this thing. this amp kicks out when bridged at 4ohm. i was just listening to music at not very loud levels at all and the friggin amp would kick out. so i tried just going to one channel in stereo mode. it hasn't kicked out but it obviously takes more gain and the quality of sound seems to have suffered quite a bit. i just wonder what a 2200w@4ohm bridged cpx2600 would do with it. I am going to have to suggest you bump up to a Crown, or QSC amp for reliability at these power levels.

this amp is really starting to piss me off more than anything. it wont even hold at 1/2 volume and the reciever only set to 45 while i listen to music. i put it back into bridged mode and killed the gcl. i dont think it's worth a crap for anything under a 8ohm load, and maybe not even that. either this driver really loves the juice, this amp sucks, or a combo of both.

yeah, but the insig's are so cheap that i wouldnt be out much, would likely get an improvement over my current onkyo's and then i could always use them elsewhere.

I am going to have to suggest you bump up to a Crown, or QSC amp for reliability at these power levels.
i concur!!!!! i am seriously beginning to believe the crest is the root of some/much of the problems. a better amp might really bring this sub to life.

any amp model recommendations? i just saw a crown powerbase pb3. rated at 1525x1@8ohms. i'm just wondering how it would do in 4ohm load.

Believe me, the way that Vc is designed, it can really chew up power like its candy!
Good amp suggestions above. The Behringer Ep1500 also looks good for this project. Bridged it puts out a theoretical max of 1400watts at 4 ohms. For $50 more you'll have even more headroom going with the Ep2500.

Believe me, the way that Vc is designed, it can really chew up power like its candy!
Good amp suggestions above. The Behringer Ep1500 also looks good for this project. Bridged it puts out a theoretical max of 1400watts at 4 ohms. For $50 more you'll have even more headroom going with the Ep2500.
yeah, i'm wanting headroom. i want to squeeze every drop out of this driver to see what it will do and so i'll know whether or not to keep it or look into a new project.

i want to squeeze every drop out of this driver to see what it will do and so i'll know whether or not to keep it or look into a new project.There isn't that much more to squeeze. You're getting pretty close to max driver levels up until the amp shuts down. Remember that the power to SPL level is logarithmic. The next notch up is a 1600w amp. That much power is crazy in this application. What you need is more surface area, I.E. drivers, and an amp that can handle your listening habits. ;)

"I" wouldn't run the Behringer amps bridged at these duty levels. (bridged into a 4ohm driver at +100db levels) Now if you are still planing on "dual somethings" the EP2500 will run at 4ohm a channel all day at 750w. I would decide what I was going to do before buying anymore equipment. That way you don't end up having to buy a third amp later on. :D

Check out this site for an SPL calculator, your driver is around 87-89db sensitive SPL Calc (http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/elect-pwr-req.htm)
It makes more sense to buy more drivers to get an extra ~3db per than to get +3000w amps to get the same output, if you have the room. Especially since the driver cannot handle those power levels anyway.

There is no replacement for displacement.

Two 12's with +700w a piece might get you there(~106db at your seat). I'm pretty sure three would(~109db). Four would have the beginnings of overkill(~112db), just the beginnings though. :D

i suppose your right, there is no replacement for displacement. i suppose i'm going to start looking for another driver. if anyone is looking for a new sub and cabinet i have one for sale. :)

Did you read the last part? Two 12's with +700w a piece might get you there(~106db at your seat). I'm pretty sure three would(~109db). Four would have the beginnings of overkill(~112db), just the beginnings though.

Don't give up on my account.

yeah, i just don't know. i pm'd kyle about the possibility of porting. i know that would give considerable output gain. but i imagine that the port would be so long that i prolly couldn't fit it in the enclosure.

You could have it sticking out of the top. Smoke stack style.

I have been playing with it in UniBox. I don't know if it's worth it, that box is pretty small. You will have to have a highpass though.

yeah, that was my other concern. grrrrr, decisions, decisions. i'm wondering if two would give me what i want. or if i should just get a couple of dayton 15's and stick em in a couple sonotube enclosures or big mdf enclosure. i was also looking at the tc sounds lms 4000 15", the tc2000 15", or the tc3000 15".

i'm just not sure which way to go here.

you said you wouldnt recommend the behringer, what amps do you know of that would handle the 4ohm load in bridged or stereo mode? how is the crown powerbase pb3?

I wouldn't recommend the behringer for 4ohm bridged connections, at +100db levels. It is great for 4ohm stereo use.

Never used a crown powerbase pb3.

well, in any event this crest is not up to the task at all. i'm sitting here listening to music and i have to turn the sub down to next to nothing do to the amp kicking out all the time. and i'm not even listening and super loud levels, just above average.

i'm sitting here listening to music and i have to turn the sub down to next to nothing do to the amp kicking out all the time Is this bridged or stereo?

the sub is sorta growing on me. still not the levels i want, but the bass is nice and clean. pondering hard on building a duplicate and ordering a ep2500. goodbye another $600.

it's in bridged mode. when i put it in stereo, the quality seems to suffer.

Give it a week, don't hurry yourself. ;)

i won't last a week. especially if the amp won't hold. i wont be able to watch or listen to anything.

Aye....I think you just need HQ amplification. That driver is quality, and like Exocer said earlier in this thread..."Believe me, the way that Vc is designed, it can really chew up power like its candy!"

Aye....I think you just need HQ amplification. That driver is quality, and like Exocer said earlier in this thread..."Believe me, the way that Vc is designed, it can really chew up power like its candy!"

yeah, i deffinately believe that. i notice quite a difference when i switch to stereo and hook it to one channel. i'd like to find a good amp that would handle this driver (or others should i change) in bridged mode and then be plenty powerful enough to run a second twin to this one (or others) should i decide to go that route. soho advises against the ep2500 for a 4ohm bridged load. but i was wondering that since it has all that headroom if running that amp at 1/2 or 3/4 it would maintain itself without kicking out. then, in the event i build a second sub, do you think 650x2@4ohm would be enough to handle whatever.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pro amps work best when the gains are wide open. I'm under the impression they aren't really gain circuits in the same sense as a volume control or gain on a plate amp, but more signal attenuators.

If my understanding is correct, you're kind of fighting yourself by limiting the "gain" setting on the Crown and then turning it to 11 on your receiver. For the sake of argument, trying recalibrating with the amp gains at max and then see what happens.

Then go build an 8 ft^3 box tuned to 15 hz and drop the Eclipse into that. WinISD says 111db @ 20hz with 900 watts vs. 104db for your sealed cabinet.

Riverwolf, that's how we used to run them. I have never actually owned the gear myself so I can't say for sure. But I believe you are exactly right.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pro amps work best when the gains are wide open. I'm under the impression they aren't really gain circuits in the same sense as a volume control or gain on a plate amp, but more signal attenuators. All amp "gains" work the same, they are attenuators. Say the amp wants a 1.23 volt 0db signal and it's getting a 1.5v 0 db signal, you have to engage the attenuator to lower the signal to 1.23v. If you don't the amp can be overdriven, and damaged by the hot signal. You only want to turn them wide open when the input signal is not high enough to drive the amp fully.

Soho,

Running a power amp less than wide open increases the chances of clipping, which is how most damage to speakers is done in the pro audio world. With those sorts of sources, you're probably not going to fry a voice coil by sending it too much current, but you may kill a tweeter by sending it a clipped signal. So generally, people there run the amps wide open. I understand your point; I'm just saying that's what the thinking is there.

Running a power amp less than wide open increases the chances of clipping It doesn't work that way. Full gain is 0 attenuation. Anything other than full is limiting the amp which further reduces the chances of the amp causing a clipped signal.

but you may kill a tweeter by sending it a clipped signal You have to overdrive an amp to get it to clip.

I'm just saying that's what the thinking is there It is incorrect.

It doesn't work that way. Full gain is 0 attenuation. Anything other than full is limiting the amp which further reduces the chances of the amp causing a clipped signal.

You have to overdrive an amp to get it to clip.

It is incorrect.

You forgot the human factor. If the amp is too low, everything before it gets pushed up. Thus clipping, earlier in the system. If the amp is wide open, you do risk sending too much current to the speakers, but this is the lesser of two evils.

I am always surprised when someone recommends an amp-limited system here, since in pro audio it's exactly the opposite. You tend to think that having a bit of extra power will preserve your system.

would that keep the amp from kicking out though? as it is kicking out at even less than half gain.

You forgot the human factor. That would be ignorance.

If the amp is too low, everything before it gets pushed up. Thus clipping. No, it's about balance.

If the amp is wide open, you do risk sending too much current to the speakers, but this is the lesser of two evils. This doesn't make sense.

would that keep the amp from kicking out though? as it is kicking out at even less than half gain. No. You have already tried this.
yeah, i've tried maximum gain on the crest and low output on the lfe of the reciever, visa versa and then a medium. it was set on +10db on the reciever and then the 1/5 on the crest. i just bumped the crest up to 1/2 and recalibrated the reciever which changed to -5db. The amp can't handle the strain the driver is putting on it.

No. You have already tried this.
The amp can't handle the strain the driver is putting on it.
thought so. so, do you guys have some recommendations of quality amps that will handle a 4ohm or lower load while bridged?

QSC RMX series or better
Crown XLS series or better.. umm K2

I have heard Carvin is good, ask SteveC.

The Behringer's will work, they are QSC RMX clones. Only with a smaller toroid. It will kill the amp you have now. It just works to hard with 2ohm loads for my tastes.

would that keep the amp from kicking out though? as it is kicking out at even less than half gain.

Most likely it's not the issue. I think you just need a more powerful amp.

That would be ignorance.

No, it's about balance.

This doesn't make sense.

I'm going to drop this, but you've clearly never run live sound.

I'm going to drop this, but you've clearly never run live sound. You are wrong on that account as well. +12 years.

Then why on earth are we disagreeing? This is just "err on the side of caution" stuff.

QSC RMX series or better
Crown XLS series or better.. umm K2

I have heard Carvin is good, as SteveC.

The Behringer's will work, they are QSC RMX clones. Only with a smaller toroid. It will kill the amp you have now. It just works to hard with 2ohm loads for my tastes.

But the amp wouldn't be seeing a 2ohm load, with this driver. Its DCR is 3ohms, correct?

But the amp wouldn't be seeing a 2ohm load, with this driver. Its DCR is 3ohms, correct? Bridged it would be seeing a 1.5ohm load on each channel. That is the problem.

Bridged it would be seeing a 1.5ohm load on each channel. That is the problem.

His driver has one voice coil. The amp would be seeing ~3ohms, bridged.

In bridged mode both channels are used in parallel. Each channel gets half the load. So if a 3 ohm speaker is connected channel 1 sees 1.5ohm and channel two also sees a 1.5ohm load.

EDIT: Technically the impedance isn't split. The current draw is just the same as it would be with stereo 1.5ohm speakers. Channel 1 delivers all the pos., and channel 2 delivers all the neg.

His driver has one voice coil. The amp would be seeing ~3ohms, bridged.
right, but soho mentioned eariler that when you bridge the amp, you are more or less runing each seperate channel in series. thus, the 3ohm load would be divided between each channel's amp giving you 1.5ohm on each channel. at least that's the way i understand it. i could very well be very wrong.

(edit)- i'm too slow. and i guess it's parallel rather than series. here's spec sheet on crowns cl1 amp. the chart on the bottom of the page supports this statement (at least it looks to, to me) as it shows the specs for a 2ohmx2 load as being the same as a 4ohmx1 load. http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/131515.pdf

I'll be honest, I've never heard of this phenomenon.

I pulled this from BCAE I=V/R I=20/2 I=10 amperes

If we take a single 4 ohm speaker and bridge it on that same amplifier, the amplifier will be able to apply twice the voltage across the speaker. This is because while one speaker terminal is being driven positive (towards the positive rail), the other terminal is being driven towards the negative rail. This will allow the entire power supply voltage to be applied to the speaker's voice coil. It will now be able to drive the 4 ohm speaker with 40 volts instead of 20 volts in the previous example. Back to Ohm's law...

I=V/R I=40/4 I=10 amperes

The same amount of current flows through the output transistors whether the amplifier is driving a 4 ohm mono load or 2 ohm stereo load. As far as the amplifier is concerned, they are the same load.

how would a crown xls802d suite my situation? rated at 1600watts x 1@8ohms?

however, for the price of this amp ($485 shipped) i could practically build another sub and get a ep2500.

Just get the ep2500, and build another sub. Then run each sub off one of the channels...afterall, it is rated for ~1200W per channel at 2ohms, and then if you consider the fact that your nominal impedance should be higher than the DCR,you should be a-ok.

Just get the ep2500, and build another sub. Then run each sub off one of the channels...afterall, it is rated for ~1200W per channel at 2ohms, and then if you consider the fact that your nominal impedance should be higher than the DCR,you should be a-ok.

roger that. i'm still keeping my options open. but so far that is the best bang for buck i've seen.


do you guys know of any CNC services. i'd like to build a sub enclosure that i could put 2 or 3 of these drivers in. but i'd like nice cuts and don't want to spend the time in the shop.

do you guys know of any CNC services. Elemental Designs (http://www.edesignaudio.com) will build anything you can come up with.

-Robert

thanks robert for the link, i'll give them a look.

i ended up going on and getting the behringer last night. got a tracking number today. i plan on either building another duplicate sub, or perhaps having a custom box built and have 2 or 3 of these drivers in it.

well, i've been coming home each evening after work and plopping down and listening to my system either in watching tv or popping in a cd whilest i'm surfing the net. the more i listen, the more i see how much the amp is truely hindering the sub. the crest just can't even come close to giving the sub the power it needs. when running the reciever at a volume setting of 50'ish (80 is full volume) and the crest at only 1/3 gain the GCL light on the crest is constantly on and then the amp kicks out a ridiculous amount of times. i think the crest would be a great amp for a set of mains at a 8ohm load and i will likely give it a go in that manner and then either keep it or ebay it. i am really pumped about getting the ep2500 and letting the sub finally stretch it's legs. i'm not necessarily expecting an added 5-6db or anything. but i do feel that it will have a noticable output increase, perhaps i'm wrong. it probably still won't be enough by itself and i figure i'll build a second one which i think will please me. the more i listen to it, even with the weak crest the more i like it. if i was stuck with the crest to power it i would still maintain my original opinion on it in terms of the combo, but i now see that it's not the fault of the sub. it's an excellent sub and i'd recommend it to anyone, same goes for the enclosure.

i'm now looking to upgrade my mains, looking into some tower speakers or large bookshelfs containing at least 8inchers in them. prolly just get a pair for now and then go from there, just depends on what kind of deals i can find.

thanks again guys for helping me out here and helping me find the flaws in the setup and offering suggestions to remedy them. i'm sure i'll be much happier than if i had purchased a retail sub.

once i get the ep2500 i'd like to try to figure out more about room-eq and make up some graphs (maybe even learn to interpret them!!!).

well, in any event this crest is not up to the task at all. i'm sitting here listening to music and i have to turn the sub down to next to nothing do to the amp kicking out all the time. and i'm not even listening and super loud levels, just above average.


Told you a while ago to return that amp. :o

yeah, yeah, rub it in.

quick question guys. what gets your vote as my next purchase?

-onix r-des system ~$300
-second identical sub~$400
-set of mains~$150-$400

(edit)- nevermind, after reading more about the r-des all it is, is a 5band p-eq with some graphing software for $400. i'll just learn how to use room-eq and get a decent behringer eq and do the same myself.

Good call, the Behringer BFD for $99 is a great value.

BTW, when do you get your EP2500?

suppose to be in this thurs. coming ups, blah. i wish they fedex'ed it.

computer was down last night due to the stupid power block frying on me (2nd one). so, today i went to RS and bought a new one, $90!!!!! WTF. that is ridiculous, and to top it off, it's not even stout enough to power the friggin 2-3yr old laptop. blah!!!

anyhow, ep2500 came in yesterday and i am very pleased with the amp, but still not pleased with the level of bass in my room. the amp has plenty of headroom and i only turned it to about half way and am still about -7 on the lfe out.

the sealed sub just aint gonna cut it for me. i end up pushing the sub too hard trying to achieve the levels i want and i know i'll end up tearing it up if i keep this setup. sooooo, here we go again. i think i'm going to buy a second sub (sw8200) here either tonight or in the next couple days. what size of vented enclosure should i use for the two subs (both subs in one enclosure)? i saw some 9cuft boxes at audiogon for a good price. from my understanding they are like that of the dayton i purchased. just need to cut my holes, and from the sound of it they are braced better than my current dayton as well. didn't know though if 9cuft would be big enough.

let me know your thoughts and thanks guys. i'm gonna get my living room rattling one way or the other.

(edit) - perhaps a llt enclosure? ha, i wonder how long it will take stevecallas to sense that llt has been typed in a thread. of coarse i welcome his recommendation as this is now on my plate in the pursuit of face melting bass.

So you aren't having any clipping issues?

I need to find the T/S parameters for the sw8200.

How come every time I plot the sub I get a peak at like 40hz regardless of tuning? Am I doing something wrong?

Here's the T/S:
Qts = 0.677 Total Q
Qes = 0.802 Electrical Q
Qms = 4.360 Mechanical Q
Fs = 20.510 Hertz, Free Air Resonance
Res = 2.82 Ohms, DC resistance
Ls = 1.286m H, series inductance
Lp = 3.057m H, lossy series inductance
Rp = 1.689 Ohms, loss across Lp
Dia = 250m meters, effective
(%shift) 28.8 %, resonance with mass
Vas = 92.15 litres, air volume equivalent
mms = 221.1 grams, effective mass
cms = 272.3u m/N, compliance
bl = 10.01 T*m, motor strength
n0 = 95.34m %, max efficiency
SplSens = 81.79 dBSPL max @1W absorbed

Derek - What driver are those T/S paramters of?

noremacyug - Using the t/s parameters you proved in one of your previous threads (and well, judging from what we know about the current LMS-type drivers), you would need a pretty big ass box in order to use these in a proper vented alignment, whether it be an LLT or a "regular" one.

Those are for the Eclipse SW8200

Those are for the Eclipse SW8200

Dang, I didn't see thos before. Where did you get them?

How come every time I plot the sub I get a peak at like 40hz regardless of tuning? Am I doing something wrong?

dear lord, i hope you aren't asking me. i understand what i see in winisd about like i understand wookie. raaarrgh, rrraaaaarrrrrr. :D

So you aren't having any clipping issues?

well, the clipping lights will come on at loud levels and i can easily overdrive the driver any time i please. but the amp stays on and hasn't even hinted at kicking out, it seems very solid/strong.

also, could one of you guys explain a bit more about clipping. when the light comes on, does it sense something in the driver itself or what. can the amp sense distortion occuring or what? exactly what is going on when it clips?

http://forum.sounddomain.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=085309

like half way down the page

Dang, I didn't see thos before. Where did you get them?
yeah, where did you get those. they don't all jive with the specs i have.

[edit] - ahh, yeah the first set is the ones i have and the ones that are in the manual.
l
l
l
\/

Fs 16hz
Qms 3.217
Vas 8.27 ft^3
Cms 565 u m/N compliance
Mms 192.7 grams
xmax 1.2"
Sd 256cm^2
Qes .484
Re 3.0 ohm
Bl 10.4 T*M
Qts .421
1watt spl 86 db

yeah, where did you get those. they don't all jive with the specs i have.

Yeah, they can't be correct. They don't match up in WinISD worth a damn, or even appear to be correct at first glance.

OH JUST KIDDING. The title of the thread said SW8200 but those are for the 10" version. Sorry!

well, heck then those specs may not be right either as i just copy/pasted the ones that looked like the ones i had listed. these are the right ones here, or at least the one's that i posted before.


Driver
-Eclipse SW8200 - http://www.eclipse-web.com/sw8000/sw8200.html
-Specs (called tech support and this is the specs they emailed me)
-Size - 12"
-Fs - 16Hz
-Qms - 3.017
-Vas - 8.27 Cuft
-XMax one way - 1.2" (website states the xmax to be 1.5", so not sure there)
-Sd - 256 cm2
-Qes - 3.0ohm
-Qts - 0.421
-Spl - 86dB
-DCR - 3.0ohm
-RMS - 670 Watts
-Peak - 2000 Watts

i believe there was still some discrepency about a few of the parameters listed. seems like i remember a couple members saying that a couple numbers didn't look right.

Basically, there aren't any truly correct T/S specs to use.

Eitherway, you'd need a mighty big enclosure to vent even one of these 8200s, especially in a LLT alignment.

the parameters should be very close to the 12" lms4000. at least i would think so.

http://www.tcsounds.com/lms4000.htm

could one of you guys explain a bit more about clipping. when the light comes on, does it sense something in the driver itself or what. can the amp sense distortion occuring or what? exactly what is going on when it clips?Let me plagurize here:When an amplifier is pushed to create a signal with more power than it can support, it will amplify the signal only up to its maximum capacity, at which point the signal will be amplified no further. As the signal simply "cuts" or "clips" at the maximum capacity of the amplifier, the signal is said to be "clipping." The extra signal which is beyond the capability of the amplifier is simply cut off, resulting in a distorted waveform. Because the clipped waveform has more area underneath it than the smaller unclipped waveform, the amplifier produces more power when it is clipping. This extra power can damage any part of the loudspeaker, including the woofer or the tweeter by causing an excursion of the cone or diaphragm from the voice coil. Let me add that most damage is caused from the extra heat build up in the coil, from the powerful clipped waves.

The light on the amp comes on when the amp senses clipping, not before. Clipping has already begun before the amp catches it. Also make sure you have the clipping limiter turned off on the amp, it just limits total power output and causes earlier clipping in most cases.

thanks, and speaking of those wonderfully confusing dip switches. do i recall correctly in hearing that they are labeled wrong or did i just make that up?

getting up to turn off the clip limiter.

If you are still using EQ to boost the low end? You might want to zero it out, to help with the clipping.

You knew it was going to take more than one. ;)

been there, done that. ha. hit the passthrough button on the eq and didn't like the results, so i kicked it back on.

You knew it was going to take more than one. ;)

yeah, but i'm starting to wonder how many!!!

thanks, and speaking of those wonderfully confusing dip switches. do i recall correctly in hearing that they are labeled wrong or did i just make that up?

This link has the amp set up in it. L and R are for right and left when looking at the "Back.gif"pic.

EP Dip Switches (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8101038&&#post8101038)

This is a pic from the manual. This shows the correct on and off placements.

Dip Switches (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=60998)

eh, ok. i already had it setup right.

so any more thoughts on the idea of two of the eclipses in a single large enclosure? think two in a sealed would be enough to make me happy or should i go ported or llt to be on the safe side?

These are the T/S numbers I found.
Fs 16
Re 3.0
Qms 3.02
Qes .50
Sd 500. cm2 est.
Vas 234 l
Xmax 38.
Le 3.0
Pe 670w

I pulled these from a car audio site were someone had done their own testing to get the true numbers. I can't remember where right now, it has been a few weeks and a few threads ago. :D

nice, thanks. i'll be copying those so i can have some true numbers.

(edit) - i shot the folks over at creative sound solutions a message earlier today about the possibility of modifying their shiva sonotube sub kit for me. got a response letting me know that they can't really change anything, but rather just sell it to me without the driver. i know i'd be paying more than it would cost to do it myself, but i'm willing to do that as right now i only have a few hours to myself a day, oh and i'm lazy. :) anyhow, could this enclosure be utilized to work with my eclipse? is there enough volume and room to properly port it?

looks like it would only have a volume of ~4.8 cuft raw.

i'll be copying those so i can have some true numbers. I don't know if they are correct. They are just what I found, and they work.

EDIT: They also jive with these numbers SW8200 (http://www.eclipse-web.com/sw8000/sw8200.html)

yeah, i'll still hang on to em though. good to have.

I don't know if they are correct. They are just what I found, and they work.

Yeah, those numbers work much better.

There isn't that much more to squeeze. You're getting pretty close to max driver levels up until the amp shuts down. Remember that the power to SPL level is logarithmic. The next notch up is a 1600w amp. That much power is crazy in this application. What you need is more surface area, I.E. drivers, and an amp that can handle your listening habits. ;)

"I" wouldn't run the Behringer amps bridged at these duty levels. (bridged into a 4ohm driver at +100db levels) Now if you are still planing on "dual somethings" the EP2500 will run at 4ohm a channel all day at 750w. I would decide what I was going to do before buying anymore equipment. That way you don't end up having to buy a third amp later on. :D

Check out this site for an SPL calculator, your driver is around 87-89db sensitive SPL Calc (http://www.crownaudio.com/apps_htm/designtools/elect-pwr-req.htm)
It makes more sense to buy more drivers to get an extra ~3db per than to get +3000w amps to get the same output, if you have the room. Especially since the driver cannot handle those power levels anyway.

There is no replacement for displacement.

Two 12's with +700w a piece might get you there(~106db at your seat). I'm pretty sure three would(~109db). Four would have the beginnings of overkill(~112db), just the beginnings though. :D

i seem to remember this driver having a sensitivity around 80-81 dB...i've never read of a LMT 12" driver having this high sensitivity, the sensitivity on the rls-12 was spec'd at 80.5 dB on the soundsplinter website...this could indeed be the problem with the amplifier...add to the fact that low inductance requires higher current flow, iirc, then this would explain the issues with clipping. The only way out of this situation is more drivers, if space permits...or moving up to 15"

i seem to remember this driver having a sensitivity around 80-81 dB That was what the numbers they were using at the time indicated. Using the number I use now jive with the 80-81db rating. :D

so, how large of an enclosure would i be looking at for two subs in it?

(edit) - i may have damaged the cone of the eclipse already. whilest sitting here in low light i saw the light reflecting off the driver and noticed some creases around the outter edge (near the surround). i'm not sure if those were always there and i'm just now seeing them, but i don't feel like they were as they seem pretty noticable. i dunno, it still seems to perform the same as always. but i've had a few good clunks do to some unexpected bass passages that snuck up on me. i'm just pushing this poor driver too hard. i've got to get it some help.

yeah, after checking some pics of the sub i took as well as a few others on the net, i've deffinately put some creases in the cone. must have done it when it bottomed out. i'm going to see about getting a replacement top for it, but i don't know if i'm going to fool with getting a second eclipse. i think a 15 or 18 is the way i should go. i'd likely get another eclipse and damage it too whilest trying to obtain levels out of it's reach. i don't know, its a hard choice as i like the eclipse's performance potential especially at it's price.

i don't know, its a hard choice as i like the eclipse's performance potential especially at it's price. What was the prices? I can't remember.

right now, price is $210 shipped to my door.

right now, price is $210 shipped to my door. So we are looking at two for $420, and 120db levels.

For +120db levels two Titanic 15"s should run around $415, four DVC 15"s would be around $490. Two RL-p15 would be around $570.

Four 12" drivers around $100 each with around 14mm Xmax will get you there too.

the 2 x 15's or 4 x 12's would likely be the better choice then to achieve the levels i want? will they extend as low as the eclipses, or perhaps lower? would the 4 x 12's do better than the 2 x 15's or visa versa?

the 2 x 15's or 4 x 12's would likely be the better choice then to achieve the levels i want? Without damage, yes.
will they extend as low as the eclipses, or perhaps lower? Yes and yes.
would the 4 x 12's do better than the 2 x 15's or visa versa? They are pretty equal. In general two normal 12" equal one 15".

alrighty, what about the quatro series 15" (at $80 a pop i could get 4 or 5 of them) or the classic series 15" (dcs380-4 which are ~$60 a pop and i could get 6 of them). with either of them i would have less xmax, but i didn't know if the sheer quanity of them would make up for it.

The 4 Quatro 15's would be fine, the Classics are out though.
EDIT: Checked it out forget the Quatros too.

I take that back screw the Quatros too.

haha. so, something in the hifi line or better?

You want 12's with at least 14mm of Xmax and 15"s with at least 15mm xmax.

(This is just a guide.)

hmm, i've never looked at it much but the dayton dvc 15" looks pretty decent, especially for the price.

sorry for all the questions guys. are there any 15" drivers that would work well in the PE 3cuft box that i already have. winisd showed 3.13cuft for a sealed enclosure for the titanic 15 incher. do you think a sealed 15" (or two) would be very likely to satify my bass needs, or should i just toss out a the idea of a sealed enclosure all together and stick with a convential ported design or llt?

The DVC are similar to the Tempest/Shiva drivers. You just need a large enclosure for them. Two 600l boxes with two DVC in series a piece tuned to 14-18hz looks nice. +124db levels easy, with only 200w per driver.

You need to deside how much you want to spend. How much output you want. Do you want high SPL from 20hz up, or give up a little SLP for more extention. How big an enclosure can you live with?

ok, first off, i'd like to say thanks again. i seriously hate being the village idiot constantly asking the questions. so i truely appreciate you're guy's patience with me and this project. that said.......

i'd be fine with spending around $400 for the drivers alone, but of coarse if it could be done for less than that great. or perhaps build one sub with one or two drivers now and then add a second identical one a few weeks down the road, that would be fine as well.

as for output, i want those concert levels, but also want the deep extension. so, whatever the happy medium is between the two.

i have an empty corner with a 4x4ft square that i can fill with a sub enclosure(s).

oh, and i'd rather utilize a prefabbed enclosure or someones services of building me an enclosure if possible. but i'm guessing that to do what i want, i'll be hitting the shop.

are there any 15" drivers that would work well in the PE 3cuft box that i already have. Well is a relative term.
winisd showed 3.13cuft for a sealed enclosure for the titanic 15 incher. That would be a pretty high Q box in a 3cu ft enclosure. You wouldn't like it. It would be peakier than the one you have now.
do you think a sealed 15" (or two) would be very likely to satify my bass needs Only if you got a really good 15" (read $)and added an LT.
or should i just toss out a the idea of a sealed enclosure all together and stick with a convential ported design or llt? That is up to you. I would for those kinds of output though.

well guys, all your time and input spent on me didn't go to waste. after a few months i finally got a replacement cone assembly for my eclipse sw8200 (Kyle at TC Sounds ROCKS!!!!). anyhow, i got the replacement in today, went and purchased some 20" sonotube and all the other stuff needed and built the sucker. started at around noon and just finished bout an hour ago (3 a.m.). i didn't take any breaks, cept a couple times to wizz and take in a little sweet tea.

anyhow, i ended up scratching the whole gi-nor-mous 32", three eclipse driver, sontoube monster because it would have been WAY too much trouble to move and it wouldn't have fit back out my door with out destroying it. so i just went with the single eclipse i already owned and stuffed it in a 300L, 14hz tuned LLT. i don't have it painted/clothed yet and i need to finish up the base for it. but it's currently standing in the corner working and ready for testing. i'll get some pics of it up here before too long.

just looking at my old results from the original sealed cabinet the eclipse was in, this one already looks to best it pretty well.

thanks to all you guys that helped inform me, put up with my looney ideas, and pointed me in the right direction. once i get this thing completely finished, i think i'll be very pleased.

Good to hear from you again.

You just disappeared on us. :D

Welcome back, and good luck.

thanks soho. i've been around, just haven't posted in the diy section.

so, i've got the sub all set up and i've run it through a few movie moments and pumped some frequencies through it via a freq generator. whilest it does well on the lower freqs it doesn't seem to be very loud in the upper freqs. and if i turn it up to get the higher volumes in the upper frequencies then i has too much output in the lower stuff and i'm afraid of damaging the driver again. do i need to get a good eq to balance it all out or is there some other way of protecting the driver. i'm wanting high output levels and i believe the sub is plenty capable, i just need some help getting it setup correctly.

here's a couple quick pics i snapped before the dig camera died on me. for now i just have some 3/4" dowl rods for the feet, but i'll likely remove them and do something different. i had originally planned on doing a big round base like most all the others, but i've pretty much decided to do something different. i also still have to paint it and make the cloth sock.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/102_1734.jpg

here's a pic of the damaged cone from my first go round.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/102_1735.jpg

i finally got around to taking some reading for a comparison of the new LLT design to the old sealed design. here are the old readings i got for the old design.

readings from seat (front of sub cabinet to my head is approx 13ft)
reciever volume- 61 (80max)
crest volume- 1 notch below 1/2

-80hz- 96db
-60hz- 108db
-40hz- 99.5db
-20hz - 98db


New readings
all reading taken from seat (distance to sub is approx 13ft.
behringer amp gain is set to max
receiver volume is set to 60 (max volume of 80)


-80hz- 98db
-60hz- 102db
-40hz- 74db
-20hz- 100db
-10hz- 84db


well........ looks like my much, much smaller sealed enclosure bested this giant LLT. any ideas? is 300l tuned to 14hz no good for this driver or what. suggestions are deffinately appreciated.

i retested with everything the same except that i tried out a max volume of 65 on the receiver and these are the results from that. what gives with the 40hz drop?

80hz - 102db
60hz- 106db
40hz- 84db
20hz- 101db (max volume attained was 61, 62 created distortion)

267.5 L

tuned to 15.35 Hz

6" round port x 29.17" long

is what i'm showing. but there really isn't much difference is there. i'm really tempted to use this subwoofer instead of going the SVS route. Cost would be similar to the 10" nsd with hopefully the performance of the 12" nsd or greater. Not sure which amp to go with though I know I wouldn't want to be spending more than 300$ on it. Another problem is Sonotube. The local UBC doesn't carry anything bigger than 16" and while hes got good prices on it, I don't know if he can get the bigger stuff nor whether he can order just one if thats all I want.

here's a pic of the damaged cone from my first go round.


OUCH the driver did reach some kind of limit! :eek: With sealed and no limiters and proper filters it is unfortunate but drivers can take a beating. Plus EQ boost often pushes the cone travel beyond its design limit...

I was wondering how a damaged looked,this will make me go mellow ....on my drivers.

I was wondering how a damaged looked,this will make me go mellow ....on my drivers.

Hey mon', you got the TC-3000 with Ti cone, no worries!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/wadeere/2661-Rasta-Makahna.jpg

yeah, the old driver took some abuse. i've managed to keep my current one in working order so far but would still like some info on getting the most output from it whilst still protecting the driver.

Willd,

No problem mon. Forgot about them titanium cones . ;)