New DVDO iScan VP50 [Text View] - Page 13

GerryWaz

01-15-07, 04:49 AM

Notice how DVDO doesn't post here anymore.
Hmm, this is not a knock (all my experiences with them have been very positive :) ) but the change is puzzling.

When I was first looking for a VP, their presence here was one deciding factor in going with DVDO. For me, "service after the sale" is a big factor in choosing a company's product. And a healthy online presence--including direct communication with customers--is one aspect of that "service after the sale" for me. And since DVDO doesn't maintain an official forum for customers, this seemed the place to be--along with the many great users here helping each other out (which, fortunately, has not changed).

Now that DVDO's presence here seems mainly gone, I'm left to wonder "why?". What changed? Are they too busy? Did we drive them out with our questions and expectations? (And will the Bears win the Super Bowl :D ?)

- Gerry

Johnla

01-15-07, 05:44 AM

(And will the Bears win the Super Bowl :D ?)

I sure hope not! In fact, I just today became a Saints fan.......
Now of course that's easy to do when you are allready a, whoever it is, that plays the Bears fan..... ;)

Dale Adams

01-15-07, 06:01 AM

I hope the new scaling algs will also be available for free download. To me, the scaling is the weakest point of an otherwise fine product.
Which new scaling alrgorithms are you referring to? Was this mentioned by ABT somewhere?

- Dale Adams

Likvid

01-15-07, 06:04 AM

Will be a real shame if they don't offer the noise reduction feature for the VP50 as firmware upgrade.

That will be the last time i ever buy a product from DVDO if they decide to release a VP60 to get those features they promised ages ago, that's the reason i bought the VP50 so they could add features and make the product better.

Not ripping the customer by telling, by our new latest VP60 or whatever they will call it.

I emailed customer support twice, no one replied to the bug that the VP50 cuts three pixel rows at the left side when you input 1080i on YUV.

It comes a time when enough is enough.

barrygordon

01-15-07, 10:34 AM

goatwuss

01-15-07, 11:20 AM

the whole situation is just really lame. I emailed DVDO about the audio bug, and they said it would be fixed last november. Granted, they neglected to mention that it was only for the VP50, and that it was only a beta patch that also introduced new bugs.... If they don't patch the VP30 soon (a month or so), i'm dumping mine and getting a C2.

Another solid company bites the dust...

Mike N Ike

01-15-07, 11:52 AM

I would venture to guess that the change in attitude of DVDO re its customers and its commitments to customers is a direct result in the change in management. new CEO. He then brings in his buddy from the last company they both worked at to - "get it sold and make a nice profit"? New management generally means new philosophies. The only commitments that must be honored are contractual.

I hope this is not the case, but sadly I have worked at too many companies where this has happened. In one case they took the company public, then private, then public again. Felt like we were on a roller coaster to hell and I eventually left in disgust. But not before seeing management extract every available dollar for themselves and move off to very early retirements.

oferlaor

01-15-07, 12:07 PM

goodolddog,

I don't understand, you're doing Frame rate conversion from 50->60Hz because the display doesn't support 50hz?

but you're only seeing the problem with 50hz sources?

is the problem in the source or in the display?

there's a definite problem with overscan on iScans with PAL, it usually needs some overscan (within the VP50) to compensate.

Also, make sure the problem is not with timing like using different output profiles automatically based on PAL/NTSC

if I misunderstood and you're not doing FRC, output timing could be an issue (i.e., the display requiring slightly different timing when using 50hz vs. 60hz )

AndyN

01-15-07, 12:09 PM

I've never had a problem with DVDO's customer service. Been fortunate, perharps, or just being close helped. I've picked up new units at DVDO and traded in units at DVDO. I've gotten quick email responses from them as well. When I did have a problem with the unit Josh even called me back after hours to appologize and to arrange for an exchange. Now I don't think I can expect this service everytime or for everyone but I've always had good luck. I don't mention this to refute anyones problems with DVDO. It's unfortunate that so many have been ignored and that Josh no longer posts here. But if things have changed it must be with the higher ups because the front line folks I've met don't seem like folks who would find the new strategy palatable.

And since everyone is speculating; I just don't think VP owners are DVDO's primary focus anymore. Maybe Denon, JVC, and the other big boys buying the abt chips are the income producers. If in fact DVDO is heading down this path its seems a bit ironic. I believe, this is similar to the story Dale once told about the original DVDO. Succesful, bought up, then course changed for "bigger and better things". Then the repurchase of the DVDO name by some of the original founders (please correct me if I'm wrong Dale) and the introduction the iScan line that made DVDO in the first place. Is DVDO heading for "bigger and better things" again? Just hope they take us there with them (continue to for me).

mark haflich

01-15-07, 12:25 PM

Dale. Sorry. I misread the press release, no new scaling. Too bad for us.

My guess is that their board of directors is on them big time to finish the chip, sell chips and get acquired. No one wants to buy a processor company. No one wants to seriously invest in a processor company.

Its ABT which has the potential for a big financial coup. The ABT chip is reportedly far less exspensive than some of their competitors and requires less peipheral memory. Look for them to make some real in roads here especially in lower priced Asian manufactured products. For this price point, the chip doesn't have to do everything the best, just be reasonably close and cheap. From what I hear, they just received another round of venture financing so their cash is good.

What I think is happening is that the new management is directing almost all resources to the chip efforts. DVDO is presently a cash cow that they just want to milk and not feed. Notice all those marketing ads? Notice how few updates, fixes, blah, blah. Its a great way to kill the cow. They killed it once before years ago by selling the company, brought it back to capture the majority of the box processor market.

Management at DVDO is not listening to us. We are not so stupid as to be sucked in by marketing again (proven to ring scaling) or by someone like Josh ( a very nice and highly intelligent guy) reappearing next fall to shill the new VP60.

Where are the updates and fixes now? Where are the VP30 fixes? What no one is actually working on them anymore? Eh? They are all working on the chip?

melechmet

01-15-07, 01:51 PM

Are you using the current beta firmware? My audio dropouts completely went away after upgrading to 1.01.

yes I'm on fw 1.01, and it has been a little less frequent, I still get it once every few days though.

my HDMI sources are a motorola DVR, Pixelmagic HD200 streaming box, and a Sony DVD.

goodolddog

01-15-07, 01:58 PM

Ofer, the Pana DVI blade only accepts NR @60Hz (sadly, well known issue). Output is configured at 59.94 unlocked for 50Hz input. The problem is definitely in the VP50 and it wasn't there with the VP30/ABT-102D (same config, just VP30 instead of VP50). The problem, as I said, is overscan independent (overscan in the VP50 being done close to source image space).

Complete description of behavior is in post #2993 in this thread, I just added that it doesn't happen with 60Hz input.

I then meant to say that overscanning my display (from display controls) makes pixelmapping more tricky - that is assuming the DVI blade accepts it I have to define a slightly higher resolution from the timings on the VP50 in order to keep the actual correspondence with display pixels after I overscan in the display. Any way, as I said, it is maskable using borders (it does not affect borders or test signals generated internally by the VP50).

And I just received an e-mail (that was fast!) from tech support at ABT telling me they are working on it and it will be fixed in a future release. Until then, I will mask with thin borders.

Best regards,
Dorian

barrygordon

01-15-07, 03:30 PM

I am sitting with a VP30 and my system runs on a VP50. I got the VP30 from a third party dealer and had the same audio problem as everyone else. If I had bought the VP30 direct from DVDO, and even since I had not, I am contemplating the following:

Sending back the unit and requesting a full refund. It is in pristine condition. I do not care what the warranty says. The unit was defective from day one. I do not distinguish when discussing defects between software, hardware or firmware. They are simply a change in medium used to implement the desired algorithms to give the manufacturer a more cost effective product. IF DVDO tells me the warranty has expired then the recourse is court. It will be interesting to see how a court would see the preponderance of evidence (this forum et al) showing that DVDO acknowledged the defect and promised to fix it. That is the reason the majority of its customers kept the unit beyond the warranty period. A reasonable time has passed and no fix has been forthcoming. The unit is not usable in the condition it is by a significant portion of the audience that DVDO was targeting the product for. I believe a court of law might side with the consumer on this matter, and I bet there is a lawyer out there that would make this a class action.

Having said the above, will I do it? I just don't know. I am not really pissed off at DVDO, if I was I would do what I outlined because when I am mad I get irrational. The irrationality being that it would cost me more than it is worth. It might be interesting just to ship the unit back with a request for full refund and a nice letter citing the problem and the lack of a repair in a reasonable time (A Toaster shall make toast ... all the time).

Regarding the VP50. I am running with firmware 1.01. First let me say that upgrading firmware is a no brainer. It is easy and just takes a bit of time. Have lunch. The only problem is if you have a USB to RS232 adapter that does not work or you are MAC based; and you get partially done and the loading fails. You are then stuck until you can get a valid load performed using a buddy's laptop with a real serial port. If the load won't start then no issue, the firmware is still there from before.

I am currently bypassing the VP50 audio for my two SA8300HD DVR's which run on HDMI connections. All other audio streams (DVD changers, Roku Photobridge, PS2) seem to have no problem going through the VP50 with component video. The problem I see is what I can only call a hiccup. A drop/distortion/glich in the audio stream that lasts a very very brief time (milliseconds). It occurs randomly but several times an hour. I have not tried to see if it is a transmission problem by replaying a recorded segment, I am too tired. With regard to major audio drops, they only occur when it is a transmission problem and often are accompanied by severe pixelation. Replaying the same recorded segment is an iffy trial. If it reproduces the problem every time, then either it was recorded that way, or the VP50 is making the same error on a digital stream every time as I would hope it would. If it plays differently on playback, then the VP50 has a really hairy problem as it does not seem to be running a purely algorithmic process which would produce the same result from identical input, or the process has a bug. Remember, it is the digital world I am talking about, HDMI input.

I have no other problems with the VP50 in my installation. To be fair I do not use the IR remote but rather control the unit through the RS232 interface. I have perfect output mapping to the PJ at 1280x720px60hz and feed the VP50 with 720p and 480i on Component and 480i, 720p, 1080i and 1024x768 (PC Output) on HDMI. I would like the audio glitch resolved (VP30 and VP50 so I can sell my VP30 with a clear conscience)

Reminds me of a joke. When Bill Clinton was president, the family was at sunday worship. Hillary silently asked the lord if her Health Care plan would ever see the light of day. There was a loud peal of thunder and the front of the church was ablaze in a white glow. A booming voice was heard that said: "Hillary Clinton; Your health care plan will see the light of day, But not in my lifetime!"

So seems to go the Audio fix.

Tom in OH

01-15-07, 03:38 PM

the whole situation is just really lame.

Another solid company bites the dust...

Maybe we should all chip in and buy the VP divison of ABT and hire
Dale & Barry as engineer/product managers,
ArronWt & flyingvee in charge of testing(among others),
Gary Murrell in charge of PR,
Mark Haflich as marketing manager,
Ofer - international relations,
and Josh can come over to our side for trade shows...
- everyone else will be official beta testers... :)

mark haflich

01-15-07, 04:26 PM

Sorry. I could not accept the job. I am a retired engineer and lawyer and an active retailer. Among other aspects of Ht, I am a consumer.

barrygordon

01-15-07, 05:28 PM

I am available as a retired ex Engineer/manager/excutive; but am only available for CEO positions.

drhankz

01-15-07, 05:43 PM

I am available as a retired ex Engineer/manager/excutive; but am only available for CEO positions.

SAME HERE - but I'm not MOVING [GRIN]!

AndyN

01-15-07, 06:02 PM

SAME HERE - but I'm not MOVING [GRIN]!

All fair. But how about the higher up you are the more capital you put in. :) As a beta tester I'd have a few bucks to put in. :)

drhankz

01-15-07, 06:06 PM

All fair. But how about the higher up you are the more capital you put in. :) As a beta tester I'd have a few bucks to put in. :)

There are only three reasons INVESTORS bring in NEW MANAGEMENT.

1) The Previous ones were incompetent.

2) New Management is a good sign to attract NEW Investors for NEW Money

3) Agents to dress up and SELL the Company.

I have been through all THREE.

aaronwt

01-15-07, 07:35 PM

Who owns DVDO or is it a publicly traded company?

drhankz

01-15-07, 07:52 PM

Who owns DVDO or is it a publicly traded company?

JUST VCs - Known as Venture Capitalist.

They are usually listed on their website.

In this case - SEE ---

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/company/investors.html

mark haflich

01-15-07, 08:36 PM

We need a 4th for bridge.

Josh. You still awake? :)

collinp

01-15-07, 09:13 PM

Do you absolutely need to use a USB-serial adapter with the FTDI chipset when upgrading the firmware?

I got some USB adapter but it doesn't have the FTDI chipset.

Yes. The update is very finicky. You must use the FTDI chipset and the older driver that DVDO has on their website.

- Collin

mark haflich

01-16-07, 03:09 AM

DVDO isn't going down.

I would guess that Anchor Bay just doesn't have a plethora of programmers and that no one presently is working on solving DVDO issues. I suspect this will change in the future as chip work finishes and minimal resources shifting back to DVDO fixes. The fact that Josh is no longer posting would be explained by all this. What's the man supposed to do? Be here and acknowledge the things that need to be fixed or added knowing hat no one is available to do it and that no one has been doing it for some time? At least he's not here promising something knowing it won't be accomplished promptly or perhaps at all.

What do you want DVDO to say? We are working on it. Its our top priority. Yea right. Sure. Fixing the VP30? What's he supposed to say. We are not going to do it because ABT management has higher priorities and they aren't fixing the VP30 and 50.

Do you think fixing takes years for a team? Do you think fixing things takes years by one person? Somethings can be easily fixed with a minimum of programming resources but obviously aren't. The financial resources are probably there but the man power resources aren't. Look at all those expensive back cover adds ABT pays for shilling the DVDO product. Look at the press release in WSR this month. Management is doing its marketing both for its chip business and for DVDO. Its just screwing us and Josh probably doesn't have the power to do anything about it.

Why did Dale leave? I don't know But I could guess based on reading between the lines of several of his posts. Did Dale leave in large part because DVDO has become a neglected step child, at least for the present and for some time in the past and because VP30 owners have been hung out to dry and that the VP50 had the same audio problems as the 30?

Once again, I'm guessing about all this. But I would bet that my hammer is pretty much hitting the nails almost squarely on the head. This is not brain surgery. Any one have some better theories?

oferlaor

01-16-07, 04:54 AM

Guys, lets calm down...

I'm sure Josh will be back once he has some time to spare.

I hope the new ABT management follows through with previous commitments and keeps the ABT momentum going.

And, if anyone is interested, I'm open to relocation for the right $$ price :)

DCulver

01-16-07, 06:55 AM

To be fair I do not use the IR remote but rather control the unit through the RS232 interface.

Barry,

How are you interfacing with the unit through RS232? I'm having some problems getting commands through using Girder software on a PC.

barrygordon

01-16-07, 08:15 AM

I wrote my own software for interfacing to the VPxx. It is just another module in my overall Crestron like control system that runs my whole HT. I was under the impression that Girder was an IR based solution, but that shows how little I know.

I have an RS232 Test/Demo program for the VPxx line. You are welcome to it. Send me a PM. Whenever I get a new piece of HT gear the first thing I do is (1) write the RS232 driver if it has that capability or (2) write the TCP/UDP/Telnet driver if that capability is there, or (3) reverse engineer the IR codes so I can generate them algorithmically on the PC. I do not generally release the source code for what I write (Old school programmer) but have been known to do so when asked by a fellow programmer, and then only under a strict non distribution agreement.

rwhitacre

01-16-07, 02:34 PM

Hi,

Have had my VP50 for 3 months and it is working fine for me. Very happy

Quick question for those with more experience. I have the HR20-700 HDVR from DirecTV driving the VP50 which drives my old Mits HD1080 projection TV at 1080i. I have the HR20 set to "native".

What are the best settings for both the HR20 (like pillar vs stretch vs crop and others) and for the VP50 to get the most from this config. I am basically happy with whatever defaults I have, but wondering if there is an optimal set of tweaks to get the most out of it

Thanks in advance!
Rick

Likvid

01-16-07, 05:09 PM

B2KjenZ

01-16-07, 06:34 PM

Hi,

my VP50 is also working very fine. No problems yet.

Ich have a LCD TV and I use my VP50 for improving SD-TV and my Xbox360. Both is now running out with 720p through my VP50. It is a real benefit in both cases...

flyingvee

01-16-07, 08:47 PM

Hmmm....the source of my colorspace problems comes from my VP50.

Tried one Pioneer DVD player and my Sony BDP-S1 Blu-ray player, same colorspace problems.

I am inputing the old Pioneer with S-video and the Sony with YUV and outputs to my plasma with RGBHV from the VP50, even tried YUV to the plasma and still the same problem.

Anyone else noticed this? it seems everyone only use HDMI in this thread.

no - haven't seen anything like that; very early in the VP30, seems like there was a bug - but I think it was an HD colorspace problem. I've fed everything from composite, S-vid, and componet, both sd and hd, into my 50 without any problems. Viewing both via hdmi and analog - bnc output. But have always used RGB for color space.

sidb

01-16-07, 10:05 PM

I agree that several serious complaints about the current firmware could probably be fixed in a day if someone at DVDO would just do it. For example, if they'd just add a menu option to turn of progressive-scan cadence detection, the VP50 would be usable with games again. Several others of these bugs sound like one person-week bugs at most. They don't have to hold any release until everything is perfect first, not that I think they're even working on it. If they are, they are unbelievably bad at showing it.

mcnisiv

01-16-07, 10:16 PM

I just purchased a new plasma monitor: NEC 50XR6 and am trying to get native rate working with the VP50. I began by selecting an output format which matched my display and chose 1365x768. This seemed to work and I verified it via Display Info which showed that the input format was indeed 1365x768. However, when I went into the test patterns I noticed that the Frame Geometry and the Vertical Lines test patterns did not display correctly. The Frame Geometry pattern showed the border but on the right edge it was discolored and showed up in magenta color. The Vertical Lines screen showed up as completely green.

So, I tried changing the Horizontal Size to fix the Frame Geometry and decreased it from 1365 to 1364 and that fixed the Frame Geometry but now when I checked the Checkerboard pattern, that was now green. The Vertical and Horizontal Size patterns seemed fine.

Another issue I noticed is that when displaying a non-HD source that was being carried on an HD channel (i.e. non-HD commercials on NBC-HD, ABC-HD, etc.) I see flashing lines along the top that seem to be a couple of pixels wide.

Can anyone help?

Thank you for any and all help.

Regards,
Nisi

Dale Adams

01-16-07, 10:18 PM

I agree that several serious complaints about the current firmware could probably be fixed in a day if someone at DVDO would just do it. For example, if they'd just add a menu option to turn of progressive-scan cadence detection, the VP50 would be usable with games againAnd you would know this how? Please tell us exactly what it would take to add a menu item, reprogram the hardware as necessary, and do all the testing needed to verify that the change works as intended and doesn't introduce any unintended side effects. And please be specific so that we have some verification that you have even a minimal clue what you're talking about.

- Dale Adams

barrygordon

01-17-07, 12:09 AM

Spoken like a true engineering manager!

Respectfully, The Product Manager

sidb

01-17-07, 01:22 AM

And you would know this how? Please tell us exactly what it would take to add a menu item, reprogram the hardware as necessary, and do all the testing needed to verify that the change works as intended and doesn't introduce any unintended side effects. And please be specific so that we have some verification that you have even a minimal clue what you're talking about.As you read the following, assume I have a very level, not angry tone of voice:

I've never programmed an iScan, and even if given full access to everything, I wouldn't know where to look, because I'm not familiar with the particular systems. But I did program interactive software for dedicated hardware devices for a living (now I do software for computers, not dedicated hardware). I'm not totally clueless. I guess I'd clarify by stating that
1) On the systems I programmed, I think I could make a change like that in a day with time left over, and
2) I was frequently asked to do things just like that, and then the changes were actually pushed out to customers within days.

So I just wish DVDO would give me the same service that I used to have to give our customers. It may be much harder than I think; that's why I said "probably" in my first sentence of the previous post. I should perhaps have qualified it even more. But I would have been fired if I released nothing and let our customers think nothing was happening for months. Even if their particular request was low priority, they could see we were working. I think it's forgivable of me to assume that DVDO/ABT's resources are focused on something other than VP50/VP30 updates.

I don't want to have a fight about it, though. I picked a tone that I hoped would have some Hail Mary chance of lighting a fire somewhere without crossing into being offensive. I may have failed at that; I'm sorry.

Gary Murrell

01-17-07, 08:16 AM

Maybe we should all chip in and buy the VP divison of ABT and hire
Dale & Barry as engineer/product managers,
ArronWt & flyingvee in charge of testing(among others),
Gary Murrell in charge of PR,
Mark Haflich as marketing manager,
Ofer - international relations,
and Josh can come over to our side for trade shows...
- everyone else will be official beta testers... :)

I'm game :D

seriously though I think people are seriously overreacting about the DVDO area of ABT, thousands upon thousands of folks have VP30's and VP50's that are running 100% perfect to a T, of course with any product there is a percentage that has issues, I could write a book on examples

combined with that, this item is swimming thru HDMI issues that are not to blame on any particular item, but a combonation of products resulting in bugs and glitches

take the Toshiba HD-DVD players for example, 98% of people have them working perfect, but what about the other 2% that their displays won't sync with correctly due to HDMI/DVI issues?, or what about people that get black/white crushing?, or people that the component output is just slightly off sync wise, so that their display has issues?, or their receiver cannot accept the DTS remuxed optical/coaxial output?, what about a Infocus projector that can't talk to the Toshiba via HDMI?

should Toshiba come out and declare the product a failure and spend untold amounts of money to correct a situation that the HT gods have declared impossible with certain combinations of gear?, no because for a vast high percentage the product works perfect

anyone ever get a piece of software that wouldn't play on their system? I remember the Limited Edition release of Akira on DVD, I drove 2 hours to get it, came home slapped it in my at the time "da bomb" pioneer elite DVD player, glitch city, come to find out some Pioneer players wouldn't play this title correctly, I was one of them :mad: , should Pioneer Elite work to correct a problem that afflicts 1 out of 100 people?, should the studio work and recall the disc for 1 out of 100 people?, no! because that isn't how things work

this applys to any scaler times 50, you are dealing with so many combos of gear and setup variations that problems WILL happen and they can be guaranteed for a small percentage of systems, this does not mean that DVDO won't try their best to fix issues, but if anyone out there thinks that DVDO can get their scaler working 100% perfect in every system on the planet then you are living in a dream world, there are gonna be folks that have issues, EVERY piece of HT gear is this way

so what do you do when you are the 1 or 2 out of 100 that gets a item that doesn't like your setup or etc.? you move on to something else, this has happened to me a few times, heartbreakingly so with some, but you move on, sell the item to someone (who will say it works perfect) ;) and get another alternative

-Gary

flyingvee

01-17-07, 10:08 AM

I'm game :D

seriously though I think people are seriously overreacting about the DVDO area of ABT, thousands upon thousands of folks have VP30's and VP50's that are running 100% perfect to a T, of course with any product there is a percentage that has issues, I could write a book on examples

and I think you'd be great as a publicist :p Just as a quick one tho, I'll still look askance at your "thousands upons thousands" statement. I queried you upon this last time you used the same phrase (which is why you are the natural choice for the PR division) - unless one defines thousands upon thousands as one thousand plus a second thousand, I seriously doubt if that many have even been produced, let alone produced and working flawlessly.

Does anyone have any valid insight to add, regarding the overall squirrliness of the VPs? And please, don't go into HDMI, etc. I understand that. I also have my programming degree, obviously without an emphasis in video scaling hardware. ;) But why is it that when they introduced the beta, with audio fixes, (that seem to have worked, at least for me - thanks) they also introduced the menu bugs - which I haven't experienced, and the 1080p bugs, which I also haven't experienced?

I really don't see how random menu funkiness can be tied to my input or output devices; and beyond that, how on earth can it occur in some scalers, but not others? Any ideas, engineers? Not trying to stir up anything (really, Gary) - but as a programmer, I really can't see how software can run in one unit, and not in the second. And aren't menues just software? Or have I just not hit the exact combo of keystrokes that induces the bizarre locking behaviour? In which case, I must disqualify myself as a beta tester :).As I was trained, software validation always took longer than the writing of the original code. Either there is wierd stuff going on - which was my original question - or, at least with the reported menu problems, there must be a bad loop or call with faulty addressing, somewhere - and that problem, at least, should be repeatable on every machine made and shipped. But why? surely the menu module is separate from the audio. From what others have posted, I would think that resources aren't so tight that one operation has to borrow from another. ?

so sidb, yes, if the menu problem can be duplicated on every machine the same way, every time, yup - that could be fixable. But unless and until they can find exactly what causes the menues to lock, gonna be kinda tough.

Dale Adams

01-17-07, 10:20 AM

I think people are seriously overreacting about the DVDO area of ABT, thousands upon thousands of folks have VP30's and VP50's that are running 100% perfect to a TEven if everything you say above is true (although I'd really like to see a pointer to the database that backs up your claim of thousands upon thousands of VPxx owners not having any problems at all) it ignores a number of other issues such as promised, but as yet unimplemented, features, as well as features which either don't work as advertised or have bugs significant enough to make the feature useless. Case in point: passthrough has been missing from the VP30 since its introduction. Josh (finally) posted last summer that an update to provide this would be available in a "couple of months", but there's been no indication of any updates at all to the VP30 for over 5 months now.

- Dale Adams

goodolddog

01-17-07, 10:40 AM

Dale, I am afraid to read between the lines. What you say is somewaht scary.

Dale Adams

01-17-07, 10:53 AM

Dale, I am afraid to read between the lines. What you say is somewaht scary.I should note here that I am not posting based on inside information, but rather just on observations of external events which can be verified by reviewing DVDO-related threads on this forum as well as information publicly available on DVDO's website. I don't know what ABT's plans or intentions actually are as I am no longer privy to this information (and haven't been for several months). That doesn't keep me from observing both the company's behavior and the problem reports from many of the company's customers.

- Dale Adams

big_marcelo

01-17-07, 12:48 PM

sidb

01-17-07, 12:51 PM

so sidb, yes, if the menu problem can be duplicated on every machine the same way, every time, yup - that could be fixable.Oops. I should clarify that, through a couple of quoted replies, it apparently got lost that the example I had given of a fixable bug was progressive cadence detection and a menu option to turn it off. The general menu flakiness to which you refer is more of an open-ended bug, not a presumably simple feature toggle. DVDO has plenty of things to fix (or delilver as promised) that are hard; I was trying to use an easier fix as an example of something they could do now while we wait.

Pharados

01-17-07, 01:12 PM

I have the XR5 panel -

make sure you turn the orbiter off on the NEC and put all the alignments to 0.

that said, I still have vertical green lines instead of white on the test patterns ... I never noticed the green on real life material, only on test patterns .....

could it be tht the resolution should be 1360 the 50xm6 work with this resolution.

is the nec working with this resolution and hdcp `? or did your source is hdcp free ?

mark haflich

01-17-07, 03:57 PM

flint350

01-17-07, 04:17 PM

As I said before, I doubt anyone has been working on fixes, especially to the VP30, for quite some time. I suspect the investors have charged the new management to develop the chip and get acquired. Making old things better, despite past promises, is not consistent with their charge...

If that and much of the other things being said by supposedly knowing/competent people here are correct, then I would certainly hope DVDO does not have the temerity to magically return to these forums simply to shill the next upgrade (cash producing) unit in this line, complete with permanently installed bugs and unfulfilled promises. Fool me once (ok, twice)....

flyingvee

01-17-07, 04:39 PM

Fool me once (ok, twice)....

yup, but at least in my case, I fooled myself the second time - figured it was nearly a sure thing the 30 wouldn't get fixed, I needed audio bug fixed, so only had to pay a grand to get it fixed- along with the 50. Not such a bad deal, is it? :rolleyes:

mark haflich

01-17-07, 06:09 PM

Ray. I don't have inside info. I'm mostly guessing. But one can fit a theory to some body of facts and action results and the theory seems to fit the facts and the results.

Gary Murrell

01-17-07, 06:20 PM

Dale of course what I was speaking of wasn't including promised features ;)
that obviously doesn't fall under my ramblings

I have no idea of the number of scalers sold in the VP series, but if Blu-Ray sold 25,000 standalone players last year then there are at least a few thousand VP scalers on the market, I don't see how there couldn't be

-Gary

mcnisiv

01-17-07, 06:59 PM

vfrjim

01-17-07, 07:21 PM

I solved most of my audio issues for the time being (regarding HDMI audio from my Sony DVR), I no longer use it, but now I have to use a SPDIF switcher in combination with the VP50 since I ran out of inputs...... Thanks DVDO for not helping out :(

Axel

01-17-07, 07:34 PM

This is just what I expected.
In fact, after trying out the new beta firmware with prep for my VP50 i went back to the original firmware in order to get a better picture.
I would bet that Dale was not fully involved in the beta 1.2 implimentation.

steviec;
Is this a typo or is there really a 1.2 beta firmware (which however has not been made available to the public yet)? All I am aware is the 1.02 beta from last Nov. This would actually mean that DVDO is further developing the firmware.
Thanks!
____
Axel

aaronwt

01-17-07, 07:46 PM

The Beta is version 1.01 according to the website. There are definitely some problems with it. For me the main thing is loss of resolution with 1080i output. It seems like it's dropping half the fields so everything is all jagged. I'm just running the VP50 output at 720P for now until the next firmware version comes out and hopefully it's fixed. Plus the beta won't accept 1080P from the PS3 in my setup like v1.00 does for me.

mz4

01-17-07, 08:07 PM

I have a question regarding ps3 and vp50.

I am having a problem with ps3 feeding 1080p to vp50 when playing bluray movies. Basically, the picture is fine but when ps3 changes its resolution to 1080i (during the studio disclaimer scene) and comes back to 1080p, I lose the picture.

I have no picture and the vp50 loses connection with the TV. But upon briefly changing the input to a different source and coming back, the vp50 shows a picture again. So it seems like my vp50 is having problems when ps3 goes into 1080i mode and switches back to 1080p.

I contacted dvdo regarding this but they could not solve the issue nor test it out since they do not have ps3. However, they did tell me to disable 1080i option on ps3 and see if that solves the issue. Well..It sort of does. Instead of doing 1080p->1080i->1080p, it now does 1080p->480p->1080p. And resolution switching from 480p to 1080p does not induce vp50 to lose picture and sync with the tv.

So I am just wondering if other vp50 owners have experienced similar problems.

P.S
Another problem I have with vp50 is that the unit hangs (wont respond to anything). If I unplug the power cable and plug it back in, 9 out of 10 times the unit will power on, but remain unresponsive. Every button (standby, menu, exit etc) won't work. After unplugging and replugging the ac cable several times, the unit functions normally.

Are these problems I am experiencing indicate that I ineed have a defective vp50? If so, will dvdo replace the unit or I have to send it in repair?

Thank you in advance

sspears

01-17-07, 08:48 PM

mz4,

Yes, several of us can repro the PS3 issue. The work around is to change sources. ie switch to another input and back again and it will show video again.

aaronwt

01-17-07, 09:01 PM

Hey! Thanks. that fixes my 1080P PS3 problem with the Beta firmware. I just needed to change inputs and go back and it will take the 1080P from the PS3. I don't know what the difference is though between the two firmwares since the first one didn't have this issue for me.

mz4

01-17-07, 09:07 PM

Thanks for the reply

So is the problem with vp50 or ps3?

Also, I'm just wondering what is the best output from ps3. Do other vp50 & ps3 users set the ps3 output to 1080i or 1080p? I asked dvdo about this and they said I should use 1080i instead of 1080p. But I would like to ask the opinions of experts here on avsforum. Reality is, I am not sure how the ps3 handles 1080p bluray content whether it interlaces then deinterlaces back or direct 1080p/24 -> 1080p/60 conversion. I have tried searching the forum, but I could not find any info on this.

Thanks

mz4

01-17-07, 09:15 PM

aaronwt,

I realized that another solution instead of switching inputs is to just uncheck 1080i option in the ps3. Although this will make ps3 to display those disclaimer scenes in 480p, it eliminates the need to switch the inputs on vp50. Apparently, vp50 seems to handle 1080p->480p->1080p fine.

flyingvee

01-17-07, 09:41 PM

mz4 - I run my PS3 with all outputs checked - on the theory that the VP50 will handle any of the resolutions - with the intention that the PS3 can then output at whatever is native to the media. (No idea if the PS3 is that smart or not.) But using it that way, I have yet to experience the problems of aaron, or others.

Still wonder if the beta firmware is just tightening up the VP50, to more accurately meet the hdcp specs - in that the device my VP50 is sending to has an EDID of 1080p - if I was trying to feed a 720p device, perhaps I too would have problems. (?)

thoth

01-17-07, 10:12 PM

So is the problem with vp50 or ps3?
FWIW, the 1080i/p switching works fine with PS3 connected to my Crystalio II.

mz4

01-17-07, 10:37 PM

Listening to the posts above, it sounds like vp50 is the problem. But seeing flyingvee's post, it sounds like this problem occurs only if the vp50's output is set to something else than 1080p. Perhaps it's a scaling issue?

As for me, I have vp50 hooked up to a 720p set (vp50 outputs 720p). For those who reported to have the same problem, are you guys using non-1080p set as well?

The reason why I think it is a scaling issue on vp50 is that when I switched the maximum resolution from 1080i to 1080p on the ps3, vp50 acted irratically. While it did show a picture, it only showed 1/4 of the image on the TV (as if the unit did not scale the 1080p image to 720p, thus displaying only a quater of the 1080p image)

Thanks for your help

snooktarpon

01-17-07, 11:22 PM

I'm sorry I don't have the time to read over 3000 posts on the VP50. Can someone be so kind to summarize all the current issues VP50 users are experiencing?

Sincerely,
snooktarpon

flyingvee

01-17-07, 11:24 PM

Just to clarify - PS3 works fine with my VP50 - at any output from VP50, at any input, upto and including 1080p. Only time I saw 1/4 of a screen, was when I was trying to feed my CRT at an output res of 1080p24. Normally, I run the PS3 at 1080p, with the VP feeding my fpcrt at 720p.

But as I understand hdcp (which is probably open to correction ;)) your display device tells the source unit what it's maximum display capability is. With the VP50 in the chain, afaik, it simply relays the display's info to the source. I am only postulating that the new firmware does a better job of reporting that info to the source component. Obviously, owners of scalers would be better off if the scaler told the source that it was a 1080p device. I do not think that is legal/correct to do so - but if Dale, Josh, or anyone else can confirm or correct my assumptions, it would be appreciated - tia.

Pharados

01-18-07, 12:18 AM

I'm seeing the flashing white lines across the top of my new display (NEC 50XR6A) when outputting native rate from my VP50. Like everyone else, I tried to use overscan to fix the problem but it did not work. Does anyone have fix for this?

Also, when is DVDO going to address all these issues that people have been reporting? If this lack of response keeps up, I may do what Barry suggest and return my VP50 and ask for a full refund. I've come to expect better from DVDO.

Regards,
Nisi

you can fix the whtie line if you shift you pictuere 1 pixel up in the output settings.

the white line is not coming from you source. or you put a border on the top with 1 pixel, you will not miss the pixel.

aaronwt

01-18-07, 12:44 AM

ailean

01-18-07, 02:47 AM

Out of interest when doing this 1080p->1080i->1080p thing vs 1080p->480p-1080p do you have PReP enabled on that input?

Just wondering if the VP50 is getting confused with the switching from a PRePable res to a non-PRePable res back to a PRePable one...

That would explain it working okay with 1.00.

I'm sure the PS3 isn't doing everything HDMI wise perfectly either, although you'd think with the year+ delay they would have had time to iron out most bugs but the firmware update available on release day kind of killed that idea. ;)

mz4

01-18-07, 04:43 AM

You raise a good point ailean

However,I am not using PReP function. And you are absolutely right that PS3 is still buggy with hdmi. It is unfortunate that ps3 does not have a deinterlacer to perform 1080i to 1080p and it seems like the current best solution is to just disable 1080i output from ps3. (or is it better to disable 1080p and output 1080i from ps3 to let vp50 doing deinterlace?)

Hopefully, either Sony's or Dvdo's firmware update will solve the problem

goodolddog

01-18-07, 07:22 AM

you can fix the whtie line if you shift you pictuere 1 pixel up in the output settings.

the white line is not coming from you source. or you put a border on the top with 1 pixel, you will not miss the pixel.

Tha t is correct, but I would say masking is better than shifting up if your usual overscan is small, since quite a few titlles exhibit grabbled lines at the bottom on overscan=0.
I have found that a border of 2 pixels is better, sometimes the flashing stripe also affects the second line, albeit noy completely (which leads me to think the artifact is possibly generated before scaling from SD).

Cheers,
Dorian

stepmback

01-18-07, 08:50 AM

This unit is not 1.3 HDMI capable is it? Any timeframe on when a unit will be availalbe that will?

aaronwt

01-18-07, 09:00 AM

Likvid

01-18-07, 11:17 AM

I am sorry to might having introduced some confusion about my colorspace problems.

I used the supplied calibration disc from DVDO and never actually realized i could not use it for color adjustments as the disc is for SD and not HD.

When i changed the resolution from 1080i to 480i on my Sony BDP-S1 the colors were perfectly aligned and no colorspace problems.

A little odd that DVDO couldn't have supplied both SD and HD versions of this calibration disc.

However, there is still a problem with the VP50 that it cuts about three pixels rows at the left side of the picture and i know this is a VP50 problem as i connected the Sony player directly to my plasma to confirm the problem wasn't with the Sony player.

flyingvee

01-18-07, 11:22 AM

I have a 1080P set that only accepts 1080i over HDMI. If the PS3 is connected straight to the TV and you have it automatically get the display info it will set 1080i as the max resolution. When the VP50 is in the chain the PS3 sets it to 1080P max which is what you want with the scaler so then the VP50 can scale to the resolution you want which should be better.

ok - but that is with the original VP firmware, right? I thought you were having problems getting the PS3 to output 1080p with the new firmware version on the VP? That was my speculation - that DVDO had tightened things up. As you say, the way it is currently working for you is the way you and I want it to work.

mcnisiv

01-18-07, 11:30 AM

Tha t is correct, but I would say masking is better than shifting up if your usual overscan is small, since quite a few titlles exhibit grabbled lines at the bottom on overscan=0.
I have found that a border of 2 pixels is better, sometimes the flashing stripe also affects the second line, albeit noy completely (which leads me to think the artifact is possibly generated before scaling from SD).

Cheers,
Dorian

Dorian,

Can you explain exactly how to do this via the VP50. Thank you.

goodolddog

01-18-07, 12:32 PM

It's simple. First set up image aspect and settings as you like them, ignoring the stripe. Then go to the "Input Adjust" menu and select "Borders". You get to choose beween defining Horizontal and Vertical borders. You need to select Vertical (which actually defines simmetric horzontal bands starting at the top and bottom of the screen) and specify 2 pixels thickness. Those will mask the artifact (and also the top&bottom 2 rows of pixels - this is not a tragedy, and if you are watching 16:9 FAR movies with greater than 1.78 AAR - such as 1.85 or 2.35 you will lose nothing useful).

You can also define the shade of the borders from the "Output Setup" menu -> select the "Border Level" option (0 is black, 100 is white). You might find that you prefer black, or maybe some darker shade of grey - this will also help achieve more uniform surface usage of your panel - as does using a predefined input aspect ratio (please note that manually selecting FAR 16:9, AAR 2.35 - as an example - will add borders but will also relocate the stripe at the top of the AAR!!!! - meaning this time the borders will eat into the active image! ; this is why I said you should use 16:9 fulscreen preset or FAR 16:9/AAR 1.78, and add borders to taste, even if the encoding is actually FAR 16:9/AAR 1.85 or bigger).

I don't remember from the top of the hat if you need your advanced user mode on, but just in case you might want to enable this first:
Select the "Config" menu, then "User Mode" and set to Advanced.
Hope this helps. It works with my unit. A little tinkering before watching, bu then the stripe is gone. For most movies you don't lose a thing. I should note that using the above setup you can even use 0 overscan most of the time and see ALL the encoded stuff on the disc, skipping grabbled top or bottom lines and eventually masking (but only if needed) a vertical line or two.

I still hope they can fix this in firmware, though. :)
Note: all my examples assumed a 16:9 frame - it works the same on 4:3 frame material by selecting the appropriate preset.

goodolddog

01-18-07, 12:45 PM

A separate obesrvation related to VP border implementation would be that, as it seems, defined borders (using the Border Hor/Ver menu item) will always eat into the active area of the image. That is, if you use a preset aspect ratio (say you set manually, from the "Input Adjust" menu FAR=16:9, AAR=2.35, you will get what looks exactly like borders (top & bottom) onscreen, but the active area will start immediately below these and that's where the stripe will move. If you now add vertical borders (which ... aaaargh .... are horizontal bands) they will start eating into the active area.

With the same source, if you select the full 16:9 preset or alternatively FAR=16.9/AAR=1.78, the VP will treat the whole screen as an active area and the stripe will appear at the top of the screen, away from the useful image. Thus, you can apply borders and lose nothing for any material that is encoded in a 16:9 frame with an AAR>1,78. The same works for Letterbox. In full 4:3 format, one loses four display pixel rows max.

Josh Z

01-18-07, 02:48 PM

You can also define the shade of the borders from the "Output Setup" menu -> select the "Border Level" option (0 is black, 100 is white).

IIRC, 0 is gray and -16 is black.

aaronwt

01-18-07, 03:15 PM

ok - but that is with the original VP firmware, right? I thought you were having problems getting the PS3 to output 1080p with the new firmware version on the VP? That was my speculation - that DVDO had tightened things up. As you say, the way it is currently working for you is the way you and I want it to work.
Not anymore. Someone posted about changing inputs on the VP50 then back to the PS# input. When I first turn on the PS3 I get a black screen. then I just need to change to another VP50 input then back to the PS3 input on the VP50 and I have a picture. and as long as I don't have 1080i checked in the PS3 I don't have any problems using the picture again. The PS3 still defaults to all resolutions on the automatic setting with the VP50 and up to 1080i connected straight to the TV.
Apparently with the Beta firmware it has always defaulted to 1080P with the VP50 but I just didn't get a picture until I changed inputs which I have never needed to do before on the VP50 to get a picture, but it works. the Beta still has issues with 1080i though. very reminiscent of the first VP30 firmware.

Dale Adams

01-18-07, 03:25 PM

IIRC, 0 is gray and -16 is black.Interesting. On the iScan HD and HD+ a setting of 0 was below black and 16 was black. This allowed you to set the borders to be blacker than black (BTB), which was useful for masking purposes on letterboxed or pillarboxed images. Did they change this on the VP50 so that you can't get BTB anymore?

- Dale Adams

sidb

01-18-07, 04:12 PM

I have found that a border of 2 pixels is better, sometimes the flashing stripe also affects the second line, albeit not completely (which leads me to think the artifact is possibly generated before scaling from SD).The white line artifact definitely seems to be generated before scaling to the output resolution. When it happens with an SD source on a 1080p display, the white line is clearly taller than one row of HD pixels.

goodolddog

01-18-07, 04:44 PM

I have a VP50 still running 1.00. Border levels definitely 0 to 100, with 0 the "blackest" - and it definitely is black. Will check the BTB stuff Dale mentioned against the test patterns, I seem to remember at least one test patterns has BTB for contrast adjustment.

Gary Murrell

01-18-07, 04:46 PM

Interesting. On the iScan HD and HD+ a setting of 0 was below black and 16 was black. This allowed you to set the borders to be blacker than black (BTB), which was useful for masking purposes on letterboxed or pillarboxed images. Did they change this on the VP50 so that you can't get BTB anymore?

- Dale Adams

Dale, 0 is black and -16 is blacker than black on the VP50

-Gary

goodolddog

01-18-07, 04:55 PM

OK. Just checked. On a static signal I first defined 100 pixels wide horizontal borders (Input Aspect Ratio -> Borders -> Horizontal -> 100) - actually these are two vertical bands. I then changed the Border level (Output Setup -> Border level -> 0 to 100) from 0 to 100.
0 is Black (can't really tell if it's BTB, couldn't remember what to compare with, but it's the same as the black backgound from test pattern no 2). 100 really is light gray (not white as I wrote before).

Gary, my rig is running right now. I am looking at my Border Level option in the menu : (Output Setup -> Border Level) - slider goes from 0 to 100 !!!
Firmware is still 1.0 (I did not load 1.01b yet).

Where do you get -16 to 0 ?

goodolddog

01-18-07, 05:14 PM

:) Check this:

My output level is usually set to PC. On this level, Border ranges from 0=bottom black PC level to 100

I now changed just to test the output level to Video. Now Border level slider ranges from -16!!! which now is obviously BTB to 100, with 0 being Video Black level.

So, slider range for Border Level is correlated with Output Level selection (as it should, I should have thought of that earlier).

Anyway, it's either 0 to 100 or -16 to 100 depending on your use of PC or Video for output level.

Gary Murrell

01-18-07, 06:47 PM

Anyway, it's either 0 to 100 or -16 to 100 depending on your use of PC or Video for output level.

that is correct Dog ;)

-Gary

Dale Adams

01-18-07, 07:08 PM

Thanks for checking on this guys. I have to admit I like the old way better - i.e., where a level setting of 0 always results in a numeric output value of 0 (for the DVI/HDMI output, at least). But then I'm a 1's and 0's kind of guy, so I like my 0's to be 0's. :D

- Dale Adams

AndyN

01-18-07, 08:00 PM

Tom in OH

01-18-07, 09:09 PM

I seem to remember at least one test patterns has BTB for contrast adjustment.

or even better, for Brightness adjustment... ^_^

TallCoolOne

01-19-07, 02:34 AM

Ps3 folks do you prefer to output 1080p from the PS3 and let the Vp50 do only scaling and framerate conversion or do you output 1080i and let the vp50 do it all. I tried both and 1080p out w/ framerate conversion causes severe stuttering (judder). When I let the vp50 take 1080i and do it all everything is fine. One reason why I ask was the Samsung blu ray 1080p issue which was just deinterlaced 1080i within the player. Does the ps3 output clean 1080p? If so any ideas why I get stuttering when I take 1080p out of the ps3 and into the Vp50 and output 1080p/48?

On a side note what does it take to get PCM from the Vp50/ps3 combo. I only get stereo w/ the automatic setting for audio. Once I changed it to bitstream I get DD. Any thoughts. This new HDMI thing has gotten me all confused.

i am curious about this too, i have actually tried both 1080i and 1080p from the PS3 with bluray and can't say i saw much of a diff, but it was just a quick comparison, i didn't have time to look up close for differences in judder etc (i was pissing off the people waiting to watch the movie). Isn't the PS3 always outputting 1080p/60 when in 1080p mode? i thought i read somewhere that was the case.

goodolddog

01-19-07, 02:58 AM

right Tom, brightness would be the one to adjust there.

Gary Murrell

01-19-07, 07:42 AM

I recently compared on my setup the Sony BR via HDMI with 24p direct mode into the VP50 vs the VP50 with 1080i from the Sony BR, I could not tell 1% of a difference, they were identical, the VP50's 1080i deinterlacing is that good ;) there was not one shred of difference

the Sony BR player is nice, a real treat to see a HD image without the chroma bug ;)

-Gary

aaronwt

01-19-07, 09:04 AM

Josh Z

01-19-07, 10:19 AM

Dale, 0 is black and -16 is blacker than black on the VP50

Gary's right. I was misremembering. It's been a while since I touched that setting.

dstroot

01-19-07, 05:48 PM

RichB

01-19-07, 05:57 PM

Sometimes I just like to stir things up...

If you go to ABT's website http://www.anchorbaytech.com/ what do see highlighted on the front page? Their latest and greatest Video Processors from DVDO? Of course not, you see two pieces of third party HW that are using ABT technology.

The future of this company is in selling chips and algo's, not VPs. Unfortunately that kind of sucks for us VP owners, but probably good overall as this technology filters down to the "masses".

Maybe I can bait Josh into posted here again. ;)

Looks that way. Interesting the products show there use their Precision Scaling, which is reported to not have changed in a while and is not up to the state of the art.

Friendly advice: DVDO, you really should respond here...

- Rich

keenan

01-19-07, 08:07 PM

Because that's not the DVDO site, the below link is.

http://www.dvdo.com/index.php
dvdo ~ powered by ABT

Steve Zodiac

01-19-07, 08:21 PM

....Friendly advice: DVDO, you really should respond here....
Wise words.

A brief one-off response for the moment would make many loyal customers feel a little more at ease.

mark haflich

01-19-07, 08:46 PM

Their chip, compared to the others, is cheap. Make it cheap enougfh and so what if say the scaling is say only 90% as good as some other. Perfect for the many consumer boxes.

Josh impresses me as a person who speaks truthfully. I think rather than coming here to validate what we are, I think, very accurately supposing, he is better off remaining silent and being agod soldier in management's eyes. Now news is better than bad news. Then existing customers can think, no, it isn't true, its just that all those many many people at DVDO and ABT just can't get it done. They are working night and day to fix the VP30 and get the software better for the VP50. Sure they are.

Let me guess. Why did Dale bail? Did he want his name sallied by the abandonment of promises to DVDO consumers? The pulling of fix and make it better resources. Maybe Dale contractually can't say certain things. But what do you guys think?

GerryWaz

01-19-07, 09:47 PM

Put Sam and Max on the case of the Missing DVDO'ers to deal out a little Freelance Police justice . . . :D

AndyN

01-19-07, 09:52 PM

IN my setup the picture seesm the same between 1080i and 1080P from the PS3 but when there is any panning of the camera that's when I see a big difference and why I want to avoid 1080i output from the PS3. I don't see those problems with 1080i from the A2.

hmmm... comletely opposite of what I get. If the VP50 does the work my pans at 48Hz are smooth. 1080p out of the ps3 and framrate converted judders for me. Picture quality is pretty similar though.

aaronwt

01-19-07, 10:16 PM

hmmm... comletely opposite of what I get. If the VP50 does the work my pans at 48Hz are smooth. 1080p out of the ps3 and framrate converted judders for me. Picture quality is pretty similar though.

My TV only takes 1080i max on the HDMI input.

flyingvee

01-19-07, 11:56 PM

Well aaron - karma bit my a$$ back - tonite, fired up PS3 to watch my new BDs from BB; wife comfy on couch, lites down,....no picture. Couldn't get 1080p to work until I turned VP50 off and on again - then PS3 went to 1080p automatically. (had to redo this, since I had kicked it down to 1080i for my lcd panel - and then switched back to crt and VP50.) Really wish this pupply would work in a consistent fashion.

Are they trying to do too much with not enough? Or are they just trying to do too much too soon, way before its ready? (Could there be a reason why the Radiance still isn't out???)

Josh Z

01-20-07, 12:48 AM

Josh doesn't impress me a being someone who doesn't speak the truth. I think rather than coming here to validate what we are I think very accurately supposing, he is better off not appearing. Now news is better than bad news. Then existing customers can think, no, it isn't true, its just that all those many many people at DVDO and ABT just can't get it done. They are working night and day to fix the VP30 and get the software better for the VP50. Sure they are.

Enough with the paranoid conspiracy theories. You people are really just too much. If I worked at DVDO, I certainly wouldn't want to post here anymore. The forum has been overrun by crybaby whiners looking for something to complain about.

This thread had about 100 pages of bitching about how the audio dropouts would never get fixed and that DVDO is a lousy company that hates its customers. Then what happened? Oh, that's right, the 1.01 firmware came out and fixed the audio dropouts. How many messages were posted thanking DVDO for fixing the problem? 1? 2? Any at all? I think I missed them. The subject immediately shifted to the next thing people could accuse DVDO of screwing them over with.

Why should they post here anymore? Anything they could possibly say is going to get ripped apart, misinterpreted, and used against them. What company needs that?

You people have done yourselves in. We had a good thing going with open communication to the company, and you went out of your way to ruin it. Thanks for nothing.

mark haflich

01-20-07, 01:15 AM

Joshua. WE didn't ruin anything. The company got new management and changed direction. You don't need to thank a company for doing what it should do. And customers need to bitch when a company doesn't do what it is supposed to do.

In this case, bitching will not accomplish anything. Personally, the only DVDO I own is a VP50 and I don't send audio to it. But I love the way the menu always open in a specific submenu even though I do not want to go there and I love the white line which with a little playing I can hide. I don't need the prep now that my Direct TV DVR has NR out so I won't upgrade the software until it is out of beta, assuming it ever is. Hard to get it out if no one is working on getting it out. I am pretty sure someone will get back to it once the chip push is over. But, the VP50 has been out for four months!

How long do you thing a processor company such as Lumagen vs a chip company like ABT would take to fix little problems. Instead of criticizing us, do a little investigative reporting.

dlm10541

01-20-07, 05:46 AM

danielo

01-20-07, 07:19 AM

I have to agree with Joshua. There is a reason that most manufacturers do not post on forums and you are seeing it in spades here. This thread has lost much of its original usefulness. It is a no win situation for DVDO.

Point is we have seen this all before with dvdo, some of us have been with them since the HD or before. Its never been a easy ride if you ask me. We have seen promises broken before what is new is no feedback anymore. If i see people post that have been buying their products for a number of years in the way they do its a loss for dvdo period.

Most of us can even see/understand the move they are making to a chips only and hoping for a buyout. But what will happen in the next few months if they don't react to this thread is that loyal supporters will advice new people to skip dvdo as a possible option. If thats what they want fine i wish them the best of luck as a chipmaker but if that is NOT their aim they better react soon consumer trust is not easy to win back and dvdo got alot of sales as a result of active users helping new people to their products.

I have owned a hd/hd+/vp30 and now vp50 but with the loss of Dale and the no news is bad news silence won't advice anyone to get a vp50 at this point just because i don't want to talk someone in getting a end of life product.

Daniel.

mark haflich

01-20-07, 09:12 AM

Josh disappeared. His explanation was that he went on a vacation to China and when he got back and caught up on what was going on, he would be back here posting. That (posting here) never happened.

My guess is that something happened at ABT and resources normally directed at DVDO were directed elsewhere. In a corporate management structure, parts of an entity are always seeking resources (they want a piece of the resource pie, enogh to make them prosper). Its competitive and a fine line has to be walked. You have a management brought in to accomplish an objective and the well being of a particular part and its customers is not part of that objective. So the management of the resource starved part needs to fight hard for resources and yet not be eliminated because their not team players. A young guy really has to be careful here, Management will can him if he becomes a loose canon. A guy like Dale, with special ndustry skills can just say fornicate it. I'm leaving.

Gary Murrell

01-20-07, 09:35 AM

Enough with the paranoid conspiracy theories. You people are really just too much. If I worked at DVDO, I certainly wouldn't want to post here anymore. The forum has been overrun by crybaby whiners looking for something to complain about.

This thread had about 100 pages of bitching about how the audio dropouts would never get fixed and that DVDO is a lousy company that hates its customers. Then what happened? Oh, that's right, the 1.01 firmware came out and fixed the audio dropouts. How many messages were posted thanking DVDO for fixing the problem? 1? 2? Any at all? I think I missed them. The subject immediately shifted to the next thing people could accuse DVDO of screwing them over with.

Why should they post here anymore? Anything they could possibly say is going to get ripped apart, misinterpreted, and used against them. What company needs that?

You people have done yourselves in. We had a good thing going with open communication to the company, and you went out of your way to ruin it. Thanks for nothing.

pretty much agreed dude, I have been waiting for it to happen for months and it finally did :(

-Gary

Gary J

01-20-07, 09:36 AM

You people are starting to scare me. I am looking to add HD to my FP CRT and consider the VP-50 as a viable option. I have not really perused other threads on other options but am wondering now if I should. Aside from the current concerns about the level of support is DVDO at or near the state-of-the-art in scaling for the HT? If it is far and away the best it may help mitigate other factors in the decision making process.

Gary Murrell

01-20-07, 09:42 AM

GerryWaz

01-20-07, 09:43 AM

Hmmm . . . this is starting to sound like a messy divorce where there are no good guys in white and no bad guys in black--only shades of gray all around. And both sides have legitimate hurts and grievances.

The bad thing about customers is that we can be demanding SOB's sometimes. and often for good reasons--we pay good money for what is advertised and get dissapointed when it does not deliver--especially when it's something in one of main interests, job, or hobbies and the price was high.

On the other hand, dealing with complex technologies out there can be daunting. There are days I'm surprised anything works together anymore. I don't envy technology companies in any field one bit.

The bad thing about lack of communication to customers (especially your lead customers--assuming a few of you here can be considered lead customers) is that (1) you lose the chance to control expectations and (2) people will start to either make things up or draw conclusions based on what facts are available or their interpretations of facts. I've seen this all the time in our business . . .

I still enjoy my VP50 for what's it primarily supposed to do--the video. I keep things simple. With the audio, I've been blessed not to experience major problems. I don't run my HD cable TV audio through the VP50 because I sometimes watch late night TV and I don't have a sound-insulated home theater room. I don't want to wake the wife up if she goes to bed early. So I use the TV's speakers for HD cable. For me, not a big loss yet.

When I do run the audio through the VP50 for DVD movies, I've experienced a few momentary audio dropouts--at the most maybe 1-2 per movie for about half a second. I can live with that since I'm still on the 1.0 software. I prefer not to install beta software and be on the bleeding edge for this.

So, right now, I'm not sure whether to be patient with DVDO a little longer, shrug it all off, get a little impatient, or get upset. I would like to get all that I've paid but, on the other hand, all my dealings with DVDO have been very positive and professional so I also want to give them the benefit of the doubt and time to deliver.

On the other hand, the long time for the first production software version since 1.0 leaves me concerned, and management changes always leave me antsy. They can take the company anywhere they want to go--they have that right.

Maybe I need to stop hanging out here daily and mainly lurking. Not good for the ol' blood pressure.

On a personal note, I just miss Josh's occasional posts. It was reassuring that DVDO was out there listening. I can deal with any message, good or bad--I just miss the presence.

Maybe I'll just blame the whole thing on the universal whipping boy--Microsoft :D --and how they've changed the technology business and customer expectations ("Did we say it would work and be in this release. Naw, that's in the next release and you'll love it when it comers out." Six months later: "Due to customer needs, we've dropped your product for this new wunderkid product . . .").

- Bemused in Woodbury

Johnla

01-20-07, 09:51 AM

pretty much agreed dude, I have been waiting for it to happen for months and it finally did :(

Yeah well whatever it was/is that really happened with DVDO and their support or lack of it, it was certainly not because of the posts made here. But it's nice of you to try and blame it on the consumers, instead of the source of the issues. But you've done stuff like that before, even going so far as telling people they should buy a new pre-pro or a receiver to correct a audio problem that was caused by the VP.

mark haflich

01-20-07, 10:18 AM

To clarify a bit, the deinterlacing in the VP50 is state of the consumer art.

It would appear that DVDO has good financial resources. They advertise like crazy, have sales people, have customer support people who answer the phone and help solve user problems and if it can't be solved, say we are aware of it and are working on it. It would perhaps be more accurate to say we probably will work on it someday. Of course, they can't say that.

When I talk about resources, its the fight for scarce human resources. Exactly how many software writers with the right skill set does a small company like ABT have. Two, Three, Four? That's it. These people are the only ones that can fix things. And my guess is that these people have been given other priorities. When those priorities are achieved, one would expect at least some of their efforts to be directed at DVDO. DVDO would appear to be a good revenue stream, its just not capable of the near term bonanza pay off sought by investors. If a manager is hired to do something, he better do it. Other things just don't count.

Dale Adams

01-20-07, 10:24 AM

the theories in this thread are total BS and FUD, they are nothing but paranoid guesses about the VP series and they are 100% WRONG, that I know for a fact and is all I will sayIt's easy to make a statement like that as you don't have to back it up with anything resembling hard data. It's a lot like your previous statement about there being thousands upon thousands of VPxx owners who have zero problems. It's easy to say, and it may even be true, but you have nothing concrete to back it up with (that you'll share, anyway). Now the curious thing is, I know for a fact that at least some (but not all) of the things being said are true. I can't tell you which ones due to confidentiality agreements with ABT. So there you have two conflicting stories, neither one of which has any facts presented as proof. :rolleyes:

I suspect (don't know, but suspect) that one of the reasons Josh doesn't post here any more is simply that he does not have control over many of the things folks here want to know. Josh doesn't control who works on what, what features get implemented (although he does have influence here), when new releases happen, etc. That puts him in the undesirable position of taking all the flak for things that don't work out as promised, even when he has no control as to why those promises didn't get fulfilled. That's one of the main reasons I quit posting about this type of thing a couple of years ago. It gets very, very old very quickly. Believe me, I know.

I also know that every company I have ever worked for (even large ones like Apple) has had resource conflicts. There are always more projects than there are people to complete them - in a timely manner, at least. Consequently, something always ends up getting the short end of the stick. (In the very worst case, everything does.) ABT is like any other company in this respect. I'm no longer an employee of ABT so I can't tell you what resources are working on what, or what projects or product lines are adequately staffed or understaffed. But I'd be amazed if ABT didn't currently have resource conflicts like every other company does.

- Dale Adams

studlygoorite

01-20-07, 11:03 AM

Well I came to this thread to get some info. on the VP50. I just ordered mine and it will be here on Monday. It is SAD to see that a thread like this can turn out to be just like the threads on the Xbox forums where a whole bunch of 10 year olds crap on everything and it comes to the point where you don't want to read it anymore. Thanks to the DVDO people for even getting on here and answering some questions. That said, I appreciate those of you that debate some of the flaws but it looks like it has gone too far. My 2 cents. :)

mark haflich

01-20-07, 11:49 AM

It is a great deinterlacer, thanks to Dale, and for me that is reason enough to buy it. If I don't need to deinterlace, i.e., 720p to 1080p, I use something else.

Josh is a great guy, bright, energetic, honest. But he is not in a position to change things That said, if I were a processor company, I would hire him in a shot. He is good stuff and a team guy.

John P.

01-20-07, 12:06 PM

The reason the thread changed was that, before, we had DVDO representatives replying to posts here on a regular basis. Sometimes to announce news etc. Sometimes even just to help out people asking for help, like the 'regular people' here do.
We also had quite regular firmware updates, and inbetween firmware updates we had the representatives here asking about the problems, and assuring us that the problems reported were being worked on and would be fixed in an upcoming firmware.

To put it short, we were 'spoiled' and had a good thing going.

Then the infamous Audio Bug™ came around, and changed everything. Not at first, because as with all other bugs, DVDO were here asking questions about the bug, giving reports about what they were doing about it, and assuring us that it was a 'top priority'. This was before the VP50 IIRC.

The VP50 got it's firmware update finally (although beta, and reportedly not fixing it completely for all), but the VP30 didn't, and hasn't had one for almost six months (audio bug has been there from the start). And in addition to that, the usual questions about bugs etc. from our resident DVDO representative seized, and likewise the assurances that problems were being worked on.

So... because of this, people get restless, and ask themselves why we no longer have representatives here, and why we don't get firmware updates (I think some in this thread also post on behalf of the VP30's problems, even if it has it's own thread).

I agree that we should show the DVDO folks some respect, but on the other hand, people have payed good money for a product already, with such-and-such announced features, and I don't think people should be afraid of airing their frustrations out of fear that the company would then withdraw it's grace from them, leaving them in the cold shadows...

Having said all this, I personally don't have any problems with my VP30 (I route the sound through my receiver via SPDIF anyway). I'm just trying to describe what is happening the way I see it. That said - if I were to sell my VP30, I'd rather not have to tell the buyer that he'd have to route the sound around the VP30 because it doesn't work properly in that aspect.

Gary Murrell

01-20-07, 12:16 PM

Yeah well whatever it was/is that really happened with DVDO and their support or lack of it, it was certainly not because of the posts made here. But it's nice of you to try and blame it on the consumers, instead of the source of the issues. But you've done stuff like that before, even going so far as telling people they should buy a new pre-pro or a receiver to correct a audio problem that was caused by the VP.

I didn't blame anything on consumers, people here bit the hand that fed them, how many companys have reps on here posting everyday about their products, I know of many that have quit(here and HT Forum) because of the exact kind of stuff me and Josh were speaking of

Yes I did(concerning suggesting replacement pre-amps) because some gear is always gonna have dropouts, before this was FIXED on the VP50(notice I said FIXED), my POS 200$ RCA receiver had no dropouts, my separates setup(Sherwood) had dropouts, go figure :(

ask folks that have B&K gear how much trouble they have with dropouts, it will never be fixed on the current REF50 because it is compatibility issues with various gear

if the people on AVS that have trouble with a VPxx (a niche HT website BTW) think that this represents the entire market( a lemon product ), then they are sadly mistaken, maybe I am more understanding being I have done business for 8 or 9 years, who knows, but why people can't understand that a scaler is leaning on compatibility at the utmost level is beyond me, DVDO nor any other scaler company will ever get their scalers to work 100% perfect on all systems

and concerning the VP30, I have no idea why the audio fix isn't implemented yet, I am not using that model anymore so I am not up to speed on it, nor could I give any idea about it

-Gary

Likvid

01-20-07, 12:17 PM

Is there some reason "Last activity" is not shown for Josh in his profile?

It seems all other members have the "Last Activity" shown in their profile.

Gary Murrell

01-20-07, 12:20 PM

It's easy to make a statement like that as you don't have to back it up with anything resembling hard data. It's a lot like your previous statement about there being thousands upon thousands of VPxx owners who have zero problems. It's easy to say, and it may even be true, but you have nothing concrete to back it up with (that you'll share, anyway). Now the curious thing is, I know for a fact that at least some (but not all) of the things being said are true. I can't tell you which ones due to confidentiality agreements with ABT. So there you have two conflicting stories, neither one of which has any facts presented as proof. :rolleyes:

- Dale Adams

Dale neither can I speak on them, I can say simply that folks here are saying all kinds of stupid **** like DVDO isn't even working on these scalers anymore and other various comments like that :rolleyes: , which are so stupid and the complete opposite of the thruth that I shouldn't even dignify them :(

-Gary

Likvid

01-20-07, 12:20 PM

I didn't blame anything on consumers, people here bit the hand that fed them,
-Gary

You got it totally wrong, without all the consumers DVDO would never have existed, we have paid for their survival.

Correct sentence should be:

I didn't blame anything on consumers, DVDO bit the hand that fed them.

Gary Murrell

01-20-07, 12:26 PM

Johnla

01-20-07, 12:31 PM

I didn't blame anything on consumers,
Actually you did, and you have also done so in the past.

Likvid

01-20-07, 12:33 PM

no that is not the case, no company promises that when you buy a product they will provide a representative at your favorite forum, Josh on here was special and that was pissed away

if you want to claim that DVDO bit their hand that fed them(customer base) over a random audio dropout issue then, go ahead

these are 2 different things we are talking about here

-Gary

The VP50 got the hardware but the support lacks totally.

I have owned the Lumagen and their support was excellent, if i had a problem they would even customize and email me a new firmware just for me.

That's what i call customer service, in 2007 most companies don't know what customers relations even means.

Reason i choose the VP50 was because the of superior hardware, but i wouldn't guessed the support was this bad, it's been 4 months since it was released and nearly nothing has happened.

Dale Adams

01-20-07, 12:41 PM

Dale neither can I speak on them, I can say simply that folks here are saying all kinds of stupid **** like DVDO isn't even working on these scalers anymoreAnd you're absolutely correct - that's certainly not the case. I think the question that many have is how much effort is being spent on fixing the problems with the VPxx processors, as well as what priority is being put on those fixes. I think only ABT can tell us that, but that's not the kind of information a company usually makes available. Consequently, you get a lot of speculation from frustrated owners. Sometimes it's accurate, sometimes it's not . . .

- Dale Adams

mark haflich

01-20-07, 01:06 PM

Gary. Thanks for the kind words. :)

No one is saying they are not working on alg development, for example, improving their scaling. Apparently, they just are not presently working on fixing bugs in their processor boxes.

As a retailer, to me that is not appropriate customer service. Coming out with a beta fix and then stoping, knowing that the beta fix introduces other problems is not acceptable to me. It's been four months. It, without the beta fix, works good enough for me, but it still isn't acceptable conduct. It's a management decision and it may be the best thing for the investors, but it is a big customer screw job.

You may feel otherwise. And you are a good guy and a very positive contributor to the AVS forum. You have helped me when I needed some help. So I forgive you for the kind words. :) But I doubt I am wrong.

Axatax

01-20-07, 02:32 PM

I didn't blame anything on consumers, DVDO bit the hand that fed them.

I remember when I was called a CUSTOMER.

Guess I'm just old fashioned.

flint350

01-20-07, 03:08 PM

It seems to me there is a disconnect here between two very different and separate issues being confused as one, as addressed heatedly (overly so) in rant #3110 by Josh Z and some others.

One is apparent dissatisfaction with Josh/DVDO having left the forum, which is seen as loss of support here. The flaw is that this is NOT a support venue for DVDO, except for the posts made long ago by Josh requesting input on bugs. We have no right to expect DVDO to provide support (official or casual) in these forums. It was their choice to do so occasionally and got valuable feedback on problems. Still, they are under no obligation to provide support here and/or get a beating, deserved or not. However, the notion that posts here virtually chased them off though, incurring some special loss to us, is nonsense. They are no longer here for the obvious reasons Dale has amply explained. Posts like #3110 outlining our various 'sins' and ruining a good thing are, IMO, off the mark and the logic is flawed. What did we lose, really? Just some occasional inside input on promised fixes/features (often undelivered) and some sales efforts. We didn't lose - and certainly shouldn't have lost - any expected correction of problems in their expensive product. While this is not a support forum for DVDO, and we have no right to expect that; alternatively DVDO likewise has no right to expect it to be a source of sales and free marketing forum that they often made it to be.

Second is product performance/issues. This is a distinctly different issue. Those ardently defending DVDO (Josh Z, Gary and some others) make vacuous and unsupportable claims (again explained by Dale) while the reported bugs go on. When I read many posts that say in effect: "hey, mine works OK, I just bypass the audio or don't use feature X, since it doesn't work", that is telling. This expensive product boldly advertises to be a one stop solution for video and audio processing. It simply doesn't perform as advertised and hasn't for some (long) time. Knowing that performing to 100% in such a complex field is difficult is not really relevant (there are competitors, marketing promises, etc). The list of features that are either: missing, promised and not delivered, don't work at all, don't work as intended, etc is too long and on-going to ignore. DVDO is not obligated to come here and listen and the theories about their current priorities are just that...theories. BUT, DVDO should be obligated to deliver a $3K product that functions well and lives up to its many claims in very large measure, not just a single area (de-interlacing) or two.

If they are apt to agree with those saying it's difficult to do right, then they should adjust their marketing to reflect that and advocates here should stop making excuses using "work-arounds". DVDO should stop saying, for example : The VP50 serves as your complete A/V hub, providing audio/video switching that simultaneously eliminates A/V lipsync and allows a one wire connection to display for all of your video needs. NO IT DOESN'T, and hasn't for two iterations now. Why do so many have to bypass it? And it does at least appear that it is not their current focus to address it expeditiously, despite some of these issues existing for a long time over two versions. That does not garner good word of mouth or additional sales. Not to me anyway. I will likely exit this up-trading train as soon as a good AVR with built-in scaling appears. And I think this near-certain event is what is driving DVDO's current philosophical shift in business and slowness in fixing problems. Along with giving current owners little hope of much improvement anytime soon, if at all.

Philip Tan

01-20-07, 03:52 PM

Beta v1.01 gave me a garbled picture with vertical black and purple fuzzy lines each time I on the unit on a switched outlet on my power conditioner. A hard reset fixes it and a work around was to hook it to an unswitched outlet, but then the power supply and vp50 stays hot all the time. :eek:

After 4 weeks of doing it last month, I had enough and reloaded v1.0 and the problem is gone. Vp50 works fine in the switched. Anyone know what causes this bug in the v1.01 but not in v1.0? DVDO said this maybe a bug, looks obviously in my case, but no word from them yet.

Gary Murrell

01-20-07, 04:02 PM

Mark I appreciate your comments towards me, I do love to help folks

please explain to me how you know they are not working on bugs? I know for a FACT this is not true in anyway shape or form

I just have no idea how this thread moved over to mass paranoia all of a sudden "DVDO sucks" "DVDO is not fixing bugs anymore" "DVDO hates us now" "DVDO screwed us" "blah blah blah"

being that the latest Beta is still up and hasn't went final yet should be enough evidence for folks to realize the current situation

I give up on this, it's going nowhere and I am just gonna get into with someone :(

Philip I would not suggest having the VP50 on a switched outlet, it is not anything close to being hot like the VP30, huge difference, something is wrong with your unit for sure, the power supply will always be warm though, but not the unit istelf

-Gary

Axatax

01-20-07, 04:17 PM

I know for a FACT this is not true in anyway shape or form

And how do you know this for a FACT?

donjulio

01-20-07, 07:21 PM

What has happened to this thread? Forgive for writting this, but the topic was the VP50. If someone wants to start a "DVDO What has happened to you, guesses and theories" thread that would be good and then allow this thread to go back on topic. I am not saying that the comments made here are not valid, because I have no evidence either way, but a thread addressing these concerns would be a better place for these inklings.

As for the VP50, I have no problems with mine, no audio or video, but I am not using HDMI for audio, I am using SPDIF to a Denon AVR3803.

As for the times when the video stops working between switching inputs, I have noticed this, and I think some of the VP50's switching confusion lies in the Auto Input Priority settings coupled with the display device one is using. I know if I switch from my Xbox360 (component) to my cable box (HDMI1) too soon I have to turn off my front projector and then turn it back on to reestablish the HDCP handshake.

Just my thoughts.

Dale Adams

01-20-07, 07:22 PM

And how do you know this for a FACT?I think a good guess would be that Gary is a beta tester of the VP50 and has seen later firmware releases than what's been posted on the DVDO website.

- Dale Adams

barrygordon

01-20-07, 08:45 PM

VP50 - I agree with DonJulio on both issues. First of all as humans we love to conjectrure/pontificate, but if that is what we want to do, lets start a conjecture thread.

My only problem as I doumented, is the little hiccup in the audio stream when using HDMI, It does not matter if the audio is on the HDMI cable or coming in on Toslink or Coax, the disturbance is there. A hiccup every tens of minutes or so. It is not there on component input when I route the audio through the VP50. So I have routed the audio from the HDMI devices out of their Toslink outputs and directly ito my audio processor. I am happy, but would be happier with adaptive lip sync instead of fixed lip sync delay that my audio processor supplies.

My annoyance is with the amount of time it takes the combination of the VP50 and the STB to resync the HDMI video when changing between the two HDMI DVR's. Big blue screen, but it never fails. Just takes a few seconds. I am learning to be patient. With the VP50 and my setup (the specific components I have) I never have to get up and touch it, reboot it, reset it, etc. It just works. It is constantly powered on (and through a small UPS in fact) and does not get overly warm, that is the finish is not blistering. I am told it has a fan, I have never opened it.

If I had bought my VP30 from DVDO (I bought it on the Internet, and I do not know if it was from an authorized dealer) I would return it to DVDO and tell them I want my money back. It does not work to a reasonable degree, let alone work to specification. I believe I would prevail in Court, especially with all of the promises and innuendo. I would not care about the warranty.

I guess DVDO is like democracy, it is a lousy system, but probably the best one around.

c722

01-20-07, 10:46 PM

We have no right to expect DVDO to provide support (official or casual) in these forums. It was their choice to do so occasionally and got valuable feedback on problems. Still, they are under no obligation to provide support here and/or get a beating, deserved or not.

I completely agree with you. We've already lost DenonJeff, William of Infocus, ChrisW of Pioneer (and maybe some others). It's a previlege to have these ppl onboard, not a right.

Larry J

01-21-07, 03:39 AM

I didn't blame anything on consumers, people here bit the hand that fed them, how many companys have reps on here posting everyday about their products, I know of many that have quit(here and HT Forum) because of the exact kind of stuff me and Josh were speaking of

Yes I did(concerning suggesting replacement pre-amps) because some gear is always gonna have dropouts, before this was FIXED on the VP50(notice I said FIXED), my POS 200$ RCA receiver had no dropouts, my separates setup(Sherwood) had dropouts, go figure :(

ask folks that have B&K gear how much trouble they have with dropouts, it will never be fixed on the current REF50 because it is compatibility issues with various gear

if the people on AVS that have trouble with a VPxx (a niche HT website BTW) think that this represents the entire market( a lemon product ), then they are sadly mistaken, maybe I am more understanding being I have done business for 8 or 9 years, who knows, but why people can't understand that a scaler is leaning on compatibility at the utmost level is beyond me, DVDO nor any other scaler company will ever get their scalers to work 100% perfect on all systems

and concerning the VP30, I have no idea why the audio fix isn't implemented yet, I am not using that model anymore so I am not up to speed on it, nor could I give any idea about it

-Gary

The audio dropouts aren't FIXED. Yes I'm aware for some it was apparently fixed, but not for all. The beta software made mine unusable for audio, dropping almost constantly. But I used PREP so I bypass the vp50 for audio and it never drops at all.

Also I thought Josh said normally they don't change the beta software when its final, it just saids final after another release.

Whether DVDO posts on here or not don't mean much too me, except to make it more interesting sometimes to read. Like others have said, he never really said much anyway. If Josh did stop just because of the remarks then its best for him to just stay away, if he can't take anymore than whats been said.

I'm more than aware that its hard to get everything compatible with HDMI problems ect. but I would expect the audio to work. But not doing anything for the VP30 looks bad no matter how you twist it.

I've read some of your posts in the past about Directv and find it kind of hard to pay much attention to what you say after some of that mess.

Also, in truth most of the companies that had someone here at AVS to post are just promoting their new products. Most likely someone will appear when the next processor comes out, just like William at Infocus will when they have something new. Actually that's what he normally does.

Anyway, I think they will continue to have software updates, even if they are slow in coming. The video works fine, so while I'm not happy about the audio and some other things, I can deal with it.

I really haven't said much about about the screwed up audio mess, even with the VP30, but I've never had DVDO to answer a email either. I assume its because they don't have a answer for what I ask, which kind of sad but whatever.

goodolddog

01-21-07, 04:49 AM

I think it is a good thing (my personal opinion) to have an opportunity to read here what Josh@dvdo has to say on certain issues, as much as his position with DVDO would allow him to say. The contributions of people from DVDO (well, I will include Dale here, even if ... things have changed ...) made valuable additions to these threads. I also think that dicussing DVDO as a company would normally belong to another thread, non-processor specific.

I must be just a tad luckyer, my e-mails concerning specific issues to helpatdvdodotcom got answered the next day. Nothing spectacular, just diplomacy (they know the issues, they are working on it), but they have shown the courtesy to answer quickly (as should be the case).

I rather enjoy reading the information you all provide here, some of it is really interesting and helpful with more than just DVDO products. It's a shame to allow the thread to go astray, even if there are issues with the product at the moment.

Regards,
Dorian

mark haflich

01-21-07, 10:09 AM

OK. Let's help our moderator out before he has to step in.

If you disagree with someone's post(s), let's not name attack. Debate the merits,don't attack the messenger. It's against the rules. Not so easy to do because a post that says, for example, there really is no tooth fairy, it was a parent that put that $10,000 bill under your pillow, might go to the very heart of your belief system. I purchased a great product from a great company, because I purchased it. Or I am a beta tester for them. Whatever, let's just debate the merits.

Treat a poster like a food or music critic. You can just ignore their opinion if you want. Some critics, such as Dale and WM, I give a lot more weight too.

Now nothing in this long thread that touches on the VP50 is really off topic. It's a very general VP50 thread even though separate threads on separate topics would make info retrieval a lot easier.

What can one conclude about all this so far?

The VP30 has an audio design bug that has never been fixed, the VP50 has a number of bugs, a programming update fixes some of them but introduces others, further fixes have not as yet been forthcoming, Dale has left the company under a nondisclosure agreement that covers more than just technical product matters. and Josh has ceased posting here.

None of this makes anyone here happy and a variety of reasons have been postulated for why these things have happened. Some people postulate reasons based on what they rightly or wrongly consider facts, assumptions, claimed inside info, etc etc.

History will ultimately show a lot of what has been said here about all this to be correct and a lot of it to be wrong. One can hope that posts here can cause change, making the world, whoops :), the product better for those who purchased it in a quicker time frame than might otherwise happen. Personally, I doubt this will happen. DVDO is a tightly run company. There aren't leaks. New management is driven to accomplish investor objectives. That's why they are there. They will do whatever is necessary to get the job done. All this is pretty obvious. I doubt anything we say here will change anything. One has to remember that we are not dealing with a small processor company whose existence is very much dependent on a great product with high customer satisfaction. That would be nice and I am sure everyone at ABT and DVDO would like that to be the case, but other things are much more important and that is pretty obvious.

Vinylvision

01-21-07, 11:33 AM

OK... What can one conclude about all this so far?

The VP30 has an audio design bug that has never been fixed, the VP50 has a number of bugs, a programming update fixes some of them but introduces others, further fixes have not as yet been forthcoming,..
I am looking for a processor to purchase for use with my JVC DLA-RS1 preorder. But after scanning this thread, I will research buying a DVDO alternative instead. The apparent fact that a longterm problem has not been fixed with the VP30 together with on-going problems plaguing the VP50 alarms me. I am grateful that this thread alerted me to these DVDO on-going problems.

Larry J

01-21-07, 12:57 PM

I would prefer Josh would post but if he don't then I'm not going to cry. Dale is the one that's actually given information that was very useful, in DVDO threads. Yes he is more technical, but some of the stuff he's posted was good information.

DVDO's way of software updates are kind of weird IMO. There are some bugs that were introduced way back with the vp30, and never changed even with the vp50. One is using shift and saving it to a profile. It really won't save correctly, so one has to create two profiles and go through both before the picture will move. So why do they continue to ignore such things and not correct them ?

I don't what that beta update did to my vp50 making the audio so screwed up, especially with others saying it made things better. I had always just got a few dropouts until that update and that includes the vp30. I reloaded it several times and thought it had corrected the audio, but after a short while, the audio started breaking up bad again. Yeah, its kind of random but once it starts, nothing I do will stop it.

But I bought it for video not audio, if not for that then I'd have to sent it back, even though I'm not sure what would happen if I did. I assume whatever that beta software changed it don't like my equipment.

It is true they never answered my emails, and what I said was always nice, just asking a few questions. But like I said, I guess they didn't have any answer's so maybe they just kind of pick certain mail to answer.

flyingvee

01-21-07, 01:00 PM

Just a quick heads-up, Vinyl - are you going to use the VP to switch audio? If not, it is still a valid choice, particularly if you are going to use it for DLing SD video. - But can't you get buy with the VP20, and the ABT 102 dl card? Only asking, cuz I wouldn't have the 50 if I didn't need the analog transcoding (and wanted the audio fixed, from VP30 incarnation.)

If I was feeding an hdcp capable device with HDMI inputs, I'd just grab the 20 combo, and save the extra money until something really cool comes out. Unless money is no object for you, in which case, there are other alternatives - they just cost twice the money.

disclaimer - I am probably one of Josh Z's whiners, tho I have acknowledged that the beta version has probably fixed my audio bug. Thanks. Do I have to start a new ThankYou thread Josh? I have said it fixed it, I think there is a thanks in there - but I'm not going to buy beer and skittles for the entire DVDO staff, just because they fixed a problem that present from the first iteration of the VP30, well over a year ago. When Toyata had a proactive recall on my Tundra, fixing a problem that didn't exist, I didn't send a thank-you letter to their CEO. Probably should have - they fixed something I didn't even know was an issue, actually calling me to set up a time to do the fix (read, UPGRADE.) They didn't just send me parts in a box, and say "Here is how to install the upgrade."

Sorry - As Mark implies, this is a topic that can excite way too many emotions, which really aren't the issue here. NFI why that is so, but it is. Even when I simply post facts, I do them in an emotionaly charged state. SORRY.

Vinyl - if you don't need audio, buy a VP. Mine looks very nice, on a 10' wide 16x9 screen. Unless you are going larger, I would think it'd do as well as anything else you will get for the money. And the DVDO warranty dept is excellent - they will replace a bad unit. They do answer phone calls/ email is more problematic, but they answer the phone, with local tech support. Which you can't say about, say, Dell.

jbergdoc@yahoo.c

01-21-07, 05:21 PM

Not to change the subject, but I am a novice and need advice from those that are knowledgable on setting up the VP 50 and understand signal inputs and outputs. I live in the US.

I have purchased a VP 50 and a Pioneer elite ProFHD1 plasma TV and am trying to get the best match of VP 50 HDMI video signal output to the Pioneer HDMI video signal input at 1080p.

The pioneer HDMI accepts 1080p at: 1920x1080p at 24 hz; 1920x1080p at 50 hz; and 1920x1080p at 59.94/60 hz.

From what I understand about the VP 50, the 1080p 50 hz signals include locked settings at 25 hz, 50 hz and 75 hz; as well as an unlocked setting. The VP 50 1080p 60 hz settings include locked settings at 24hz, 48 hz, 60 hz and 72 hz as well as an unlocked setting.

I'd appreciate advice on what's the best input and output matches (and why) for the following questions:

1. What signal matches would be best for SD and HD viewing from my direct TV HR20 satellite receiver?

2. What signal matches would be best for my Denon 1930CI DVD player for DVD viewing?

3. What signal matches would be best for my future purchase of either a HD-DVD or blu-ray player? (when the war is over)

4. Should I bypass the VP 50 audio due to the dropout issue and additionally run digital optical cables to my AV receiver directly from my satellite receiver and DVD player? Will I then have A/V sync problems?

thanks for your help

TallCoolOne

01-21-07, 06:01 PM

4. Should I bypass the VP 50 audio due to the dropout issue and additionally run digital optical cables to my AV receiver directly from my satellite receiver and DVD player? Will I then have A/V sync problems?
thanks for your help

i'll let the more experienced pros answer your other questions regarding video signals, but for this one I would say deifnitely try HDMI audio through the VP50 first since not everyone has problems. There's been a lot of negative posts lately so new/potential VP50 owners may be scared away, so i just want to say personally I have no audio dropout problems since the 1.01 beta firmware...I am running HDMI from 4 sources (DirecTV HD Tivo, Oppo DVD, PS3, Bell Expressvu HD receiver) to VP50, coax optical out from VP50 to a Denon A/V receiver, and have no audio issues from any source. If you have audio issues after trying hdmi then you can always switch to optical cables direct, it's possible you may have a slight sync issue if your a/v receiver doesn't have a delay feature...

barrygordon

01-21-07, 06:09 PM

(1) I would start at the VP50 output menus and attempt to get a digital match at the native rate (lets say 1920x1080 at 59.94 hz since that is generally the US standard). Once I achieved that I would check to see if the native rate pixel mapping stayed consistent if you changed the output to 24 hz and 50 hz at the 1920x1280 resolution. Once I got that I would leave the output settings of the VP50 alone except for maybe holding a different display profile at 24h and 50 hz if they gave a native rate match in addition to the 59.94 (60 hz). Check using the test patterns. With the VP50 and the Pioneer native rate matched, the pioneer should be doing no scaling. The different vertical frequencies might be useful for film based sources which are geneally at 24 fps

(2) Let the HR20 produce all resolutions, 480i, 720p, 1080i (Passthrough) and any others so it does no scaling Let the VP50 figure out what it sees and scale it to the defined output.

(3) When the HD/BR war is over trade in the VP50 for a VPXX which should be HDMI1.3 by that time and have all of the 1080p issues resolved.. In the mean time let the HD/BR dvd system if you have one just feed the VP50 and let it do the work to rescale if it accepts 1080p (as I do not remember). If the vP50 does not accept 1080p then set the dvd players to produce 1080i if that is possible. If you have a current dvd player see if you can set it to produce 480i since that is what is recorded and perhaps you do not want it to do any scaling either.

All of the above assumes that the VP50 scvles better than any other device in the chain. If that is not the case then there is a purchasing decision that might need to be reviewed.

On Audio try it on the HDMI cable. No drop outs be happy. Remember a Sat/cable rcvr will have audio drops itself, but generally accompanied by video pixelation or dropout. If there are audio problems with the VP50, route the audio directly to your receiver from the source components digital audio out (Toslink or coaxial). Hopefully your receiver can provide a fixed audio delay, if so adjust it; if not see how much it bothers you.

Remember you can always return the VP50 and buy something else.

Hope the above helps

Pharados

01-22-07, 12:10 AM

what could i aspect from this dealer www.inetdistributors.com ?
they sell the SDi Mod. Board for about 169 USD. are they a DVDo dealer ? does anyone have tested them ?

goodolddog

01-22-07, 02:47 AM

addendum to barygordon's post

You might also want to try setting the "dot by dot" aspect mode on the Pio to make sure internal processing stays at a minimum (under the same assumption as above).

jbergdoc@yahoo.c

01-22-07, 08:10 AM

thanks to those that answered my post.

A couple of more questions:

Regarding DVDs, blu ray discs and HD-DVDs in the US. Is the native output of the discs themselves at 60 hz or is it instead at 24 hz and then moved up to 60 hz by the dvd, blu-ray, or HD-DVD player? If that is true, the VP HDMI input is compatible at 60 hz and then could be outputted at 1080p at 24 hz to the pioneer since it has a 1080p 24 hz input. Is that a correct or incorrect way to go for standard or high def discs? If not correct, when would I ever know based on the disc whether I need to use 50 hz for PAL or 24 hz for film based material on my VP output and pioneer input?
Lastly, is there an advantage on the various colorspace choices. RGB vs YPbPr at 444 or 422? the pioneer accepts them all

thanks for educating me

cat6man

01-22-07, 03:41 PM

what could i aspect from this dealer www.inetdistributors.com ?
they sell the SDi Mod. Board for about 169 USD. are they a DVDo dealer ? does anyone have tested them ?

i'm also interested in the answer to this.
anyone familiar with them?

thanks

barrygordon

01-22-07, 06:02 PM

I am no expert on the new BD and HD formats but what I understand is that all major titles (not the auxiliary stuff) are being mastered at 1080p. Now is that 24 fps, 30 fps or 60fps? I do not know. I have a hunch we may see all three!. I am also told that the ICT flag is not being used at this time (that is the flag that says to downgrade resolution if no HDCP present) by any major content provider which seems to imply that HDMI without HDCP should be workable. I refuse to get a BD/HD disc (ergo a player) until (1) the war is settled and there is a victor, (2) someone puts out a player that plays either one (3) Someone puts out a megachanger that either plays disks of the winner or of either type interchangably with no adjustments . What I really want is (3)

flyingvee

01-22-07, 06:14 PM

I am also told that the ICT flag is not being used at this time (that is the flag that says to downgrade resolution if no HDCP present) by any major content provider which seems to imply that HDMI without HDCP should be workable.

purely anecdotal, Barry, but fwiw, with my PS3 and vp50, when connecting via hdmi and outputting via the BNC/analog outs, the curtains closed, and there was no output (actually, I could see the PS3s output for half a second, while the curtain was closing.) You are correct, in that I could see 1080i via the component cables - perhaps it is just a PS3 choice. Its the only HD device I own, so I can't say. But once I connected the VP to an HDCP enabled device on the HDMI output, the curtains opened, and the PS3 would happily output any res, up to and including 1080p.

With some other source device, ymmv. In my case, with my PS3, an HDCP output device must be present.

LonelyDodger

01-22-07, 06:47 PM

Jeez - I went to CES and got a new job and look what I missed (I didn't even get to throw any of the punches! :))

I saw the noise reduction demo at their booth - looked pretty good. I'd love to see that in one of my iScans (either one actually).

Cheers!

-LD:cool:

drhankz

01-22-07, 06:49 PM

(2) someone puts out a player that plays either one

It was announced two weeks ago at CES ---

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9384193&&#post9384193

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9359063&&#post9359063

And you can BUY IT ALREADY.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9544996&&#post9544996

Let us know how you like it Barry!

Gary Murrell

01-22-07, 06:51 PM

Barry, both formats use 1080p/24 for films, the Sony BR player has a direct 1080p/24 output and it is said to be coming to the Toshiba XA2 soon

your missing out on some good watchin' bud ;)

-Gary

LonelyDodger

01-22-07, 08:06 PM

...with my PS3 and vp50, when connecting via hdmi and outputting via the BNC/analog outs, the curtains closed, and there was no output...

...and the PS3 would happily output any res, up to and including 1080p. With some other source device, ymmv. In my case, with my PS3, an HDCP output device must be present...

Flyingvee - note that the curtain function is a result of the iScan, not the PS3. The iScan has a routine programmed into it to determine if you should be getting the content on th eoutput side based on the status of the encryption on the input. This controls the curtain. Try plugging the PS3 into your non-HDCP display directly to see if the PS3 has some form of down res function.

I imagine that DVDO (ABT - or is it "Anchor Bay" now?) could chose to program a lock-down to 480p/576p if the input was encrypted and the output was not (either through authentication failure or by using the BNC outputs). But then how would they lock down SD content if it could strip HDCP and be output to another iScan (maybe screw up the video by cranking the sharpness or removing the color from an image)? This would probably be a significant effort as the iScan would have to manipulate the output format menu structure, and I think Dale commented earlier (or maybe I just read between the lines - and I may need a better perscription on my glasses) that menu modifications are not trivial...

The unfortunate rule of thumb that's been accepted in the Video industry is that once HDCP is put on a signal it can't be removed - thus either don't use an HDCP source (so HDCP never touches your content) or make sure everything in your system is HDCP compliant.

Cheers!

-LD :cool:

flyingvee

01-22-07, 11:30 PM

Flyingvee - note that the curtain function is a result of the iScan, not the PS3. The iScan has a routine programmed into it to determine if you should be getting the content on th eoutput side based on the status of the encryption on the input. This controls the curtain. Try plugging the PS3 into your non-HDCP display directly to see if the PS3 has some form of down res function.

Isn't that what I was saying? that based upon the behavior of the VP, I was jumping to the conclusion that there was encryption, or whatever on the HDMI source material, coming from the PS3. Even tho there is no content flag set (afaik) - the HDMI out from the PS3, the VP is seeing (sensing?) encryption.

Or maybe I'm totally confused - but I have connected other HDMI devices to the VP, had a non compliant output device, and not had the curtains close. So hdcp does not appear to be on all hdmi. Just on my PS3. - and PS3 blu ray discs.

I can't plug directly into my non-hdcp device - it is a crt pj with RGBHV inputs.

barrygordon

01-22-07, 11:44 PM

Well that (multi disc player) is interesting. Can the changer be far behind? I will spend the bucks for the changer but not 1200 for a single disc player. I am really spoiled and so is my SO.

In my thetaer there are two 300 Disc DVD changers that will even turn a disk over. At last count there were 393 discs stored in the two changers with a full librarian. The librarian is linked to DVD profiler so when I buy a DVD I just enter the UPC code and all of the data about the disk (and its content) is brought into the library with two clicks. If you select the DVD system in the Theater's universal remote, a listing of the library comes up on the big screen at 50 titles per page. A title may either be played or all info about the DVD and its content can be displayed. Nothing physical (DVD's) gets touched. The list may be sorted reverse chrono (newest disk on top) or alphabetically.

It is just too convenient compared to having to store disks, remembering what is where etc. The changers put out 480i and the VP50 does an excellent job with thier signals on Component. When the HD/BD changers come out, and they will, I will buy one and begin buying HD/BD discs. Until then I guess I will just wait.

barrygordon

01-23-07, 12:17 AM

The PS3 behavior is interesting. Sony is one of the firms that is paranoid about Digital Media rights. They (SONY BMG) caused a big stir in the Audio CD world when they did some nasty stuff like loading "kernel" code when you tried to play one of their "Protected" CD's. They got their hands smacked big time. Not only were they doing something they were not entitled to do without my permission (It is my equipment), but the code they loaded was flawed and provided a security issue

My understanding on the ICT flag is that it just controls auto down rez for people who do not have HDCP compliant systems. I guess some mfg are demanding that there be content protection (HDCP) even if the content provider does not require it. Bummer.

IMHO the issue of content protection should be under the control of the content owner/provider and not the mfg of the components in the playback chain. If the Content owner does not want their content protected, then it should not be. The equipment should absolutely enforce DRM and content protection If AND ONLY IF the content provider wants that done.

Gino AUS

01-23-07, 02:18 AM

which dvd disc changer are you using Barry?

bejoro

01-23-07, 03:24 AM

drhankz

01-23-07, 07:56 AM

Well that (multi disc player) is interesting. Can the changer be far behind? I will spend the bucks for the changer but not 1200 for a single disc player. I am really spoiled and so is my SO..

If you really want to SPOIL your SO - You would get her a High-Def DVD.

What's the Difference between a Player and a Changer?

When you get a NEW MOVIE - you have to load it into BOTH units?

If it is a rental Movie you have to take it out of BOTH units.

Therefore as an Engineer - you know the amount of work [Energy]
used in BOTH cases is the same [GRIN]!

mark haflich

01-23-07, 08:20 AM

Barry? Aren't political discussions off limit here. :)

Josh Z

01-23-07, 09:37 AM

My understanding on the ICT flag is that it just controls auto down rez for people who do not have HDCP compliant systems. I guess some mfg are demanding that there be content protection (HDCP) even if the content provider does not require it. Bummer.

ICT and HDCP are two separate copy protection measures, the former for Component Video and the latter for HDMI. ICT causes the Component Video output to be downscaled to 480p or 540p. HDCP will prevent any video output over HDMI at all unless the proper handshake is achieved on both ends of the signal chain.

Currently, there are no discs flagged with ICT, but every HD DVD and Blu-ray is encrypted with HDCP.

flyingvee

01-23-07, 10:02 AM

Thanks for the clarification, Josh. That explains what I'm seeing. My PS3 does output up to 1080i over component, so there is no ICT. (So I'm guessing it is Sony's own idea to only output 1080p over HDMI.)

So there is HDCP, even without the ICT flag. When I first read that BD and HD-DVD would have no ICT flag, I incorrectly assumed that meant no HDCP over HDMI. My bad - which I discovered when I first hooked up the PS3.

On the plus side, I discovered that my devices do work, so sometimes it is good to be proactive. :)

barrygordon

01-23-07, 10:49 AM

Mark, What political statement are you referring to? Use of content protection? That is not political it is commercial. I assume you were just pulling my chain.

Now for those who asked about the changers. They are Sony CX-875 300 disc megachangers. The difference between a player and a changer is the capacity of disks it holds. Most "Players" hold 1-6 discs, "changers" hold up to 400 as far as I have seen. They are independent units each having a special slot for "Rental DVD's". In todays market they generally can be found for under $500. My software treats the library as containing N DVD's divided among K changers. In the library (An XML file) each entry contains all the information about the DVD and the slot number where it is stored. Slots 1-300 are in changer 1, slots 301 to 600 are in changer 2. The XML file is built by DVD profiler when I give it the UPC number of the disc I bought. When I finally get a HD/BD changer it will be slots 601-900 or whatever. A DVD is placed into one changer and one changer only. I generally only store the Main DVD and do not store the "Bonus stuff" All of the Bonus stuff plus the jewel cases are in the attic. I also keep a 3up hard copy of the library with cover art for those who like to "Paper Browse"

I chose the 875 because of its ability to play either side of a disc, handle all DVD audio and allow selection of progressive vs interlaced. The only negative, which I overcame by software, is that when they start up they immediately begin playing the last disc played. Sony claimed this feature was for large stores so that when the powered up the units they would all be playing. Toro PooPoo I say. Disc load time is about 30 seconds.

Just to keep this thread "proper", I have no issues with the DVD changers running through the VP50. They are switched by a KDS component switcher and fed into one component input of the VP50 (I have 4 component devices)

mark haflich

01-23-07, 12:18 PM

Of course, Barry. See the smiley?

barrygordon

01-23-07, 12:30 PM

Yeah, But I smile when I am being nasty!

PS (I knew you were just pulling the chain)

mark haflich

01-23-07, 01:21 PM

So you must not smile a lot.

LonelyDodger

01-23-07, 08:18 PM

Isn't that what I was saying? that based upon the behavior of the VP, I was jumping to the conclusion that there was encryption, or whatever on the HDMI source material, coming from the PS3. Even tho there is no content flag set (afaik) - the HDMI out from the PS3, the VP is seeing (sensing?) encryption.

Or maybe I'm totally confused - but I have connected other HDMI devices to the VP, had a non compliant output device, and not had the curtains close. So hdcp does not appear to be on all hdmi. Just on my PS3. - and PS3 blu ray discs.

I can't plug directly into my non-hdcp device - it is a crt pj with RGBHV inputs.

You can press the info button on your VP50 remote to see if the input says "(HDCP)" next to the HDMI input.

You can also try turning off the HDCP compatibility on the HDMI input side of the VP50 - some sources will try to authenticate with a downstream device and then quit trying and output video anyway when it doesn't succeed (the DirecTV HR10-250 did this).

I'd be suprised to hear that Sony didn't have HDCP on their PS3 output - it seems that the HDCP specification, as clear as it is - is still confusing to some manufacturers. They leave HDCP on all the time and don't offer a way to down-res the signal to ensure customers aren't blocked from their legally acquired content (that should be a class action suit against the CEA in itself in my opinion - my DVD never came with a note saying: "this content MUST be played only with an HDCP compliant presentation system" - it only said it couldn't be used for public presentation and/or profit). In fact I don't remember ever seeing that on any game or movie...

Maybe if a few tens of thousands of us sued the movie studios (for the dollar ammount of every DVD ever sold) and the CEA (for the dollar ammount of every tv or intermediate device that is not 100% reliable with the new HDMI interface) for prohibiting us from displaying content we legally acquired at an authorized retail establishment, it would convince them that they are still catering to consumers (not sheep). That would be a few billion I'm sure.

But that would never happen - would it :).

Cheers!

-LD :cool:

P.S. Long live hypocrisy! :D

flyingvee

01-23-07, 09:03 PM

You can press the info button on your VP50 remote to see if the input says "(HDCP)" next to the HDMI input.

I'll try that next time I fire up the system. Thanks.

jeff_tyrrill

01-23-07, 09:52 PM

Maybe if a few tens of thousands of us sued the movie studios (for the dollar ammount of every DVD ever sold) and the CEA (for the dollar ammount of every tv or intermediate device that is not 100% reliable with the new HDMI interface) for prohibiting us from displaying content we legally acquired at an authorized retail establishment, it would convince them that they are still catering to consumers (not sheep). That would be a few billion I'm sure.

But that would never happen - would it :).
What might actually happen because of HDCP is the failure of the HD DVD and/or BD formats (or the PS3), or at least their relegation to an obscure niche.

The studios won't learn anything from it, though.

docrog

01-23-07, 09:53 PM

ailean

01-24-07, 06:35 AM

I've just begin hooking up my new HT, making a dry run with a Denon DVD player running HDMI v.1.1 into a Sony VPL-VW50 ("Pearl") prior to bringing the VP50 into the equation. I was unable to get the Sony to recognize the Denon, as the Sony is listed at HDMI v1.2. The Denon did play flawlessly on the Sony via component cabling at 480p/480i. I had thought that there was full backwards compatibility of HDMI. My question is whether the VP50 is at HDMI v1.1 or 1.2? Does anyone on this thread have experience with the "Pearl" and the VP50 and knows if I should expect a problem in the handshake? The only other possibility may be that there is a defect in the my particular Sony unit's ability to lock on ANY HDMI, which would require service/replacement. Any thoughts would be most helpful!

In theory 1.2 is compatible with 1.1 sources but the implementation of HDMI by many manufactures is not 100% to standard (and the standard isn't that well defined to start with hence we are on version 1.3 now).

The VP range I think are all 1.1 HDMI and I have my VP50 connected to a Pearl at the moment without any major issues. I have 1.1 and 1.2 sources feeding the VP50 too and they seem to work okay.

If the Denon is giving you problems direct you may actually discover that placing the VP50 in between the two will actually help (my previous TV doesn't work with my HD Sat box but going via the VP50/VP30 it worked fine ;) ).

docrog

01-24-07, 07:34 AM

Ailean, thanks for your reply. I know that the Denon DVD player had successfully output HDMI to my Infocus DLP monitor at 480p. I'm pretty sure that I cycled through all the Denon's choices of resolution (480i/480p/1080i) before giving up on the HDMI interface for either of the 2 HDMI inputs on the Pearl. As I previously posted, I wonder if there is a flaw in the HDMI sensing/switching circuitry on the specific Pearl that I purchased, rather than incompatibility between the Denon and Pearl. Perhaps trying another DVD player with HDMI out could verify?? It will be later this week that I'll be inserting my new (and previously unconfigured) VP50 into the system, as audio set-up and fine tuning of the Pearl (with on-board patterns) will happen first. I had hooked up the video from the Denon to try to use DVD test patterns, then found the problem. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the VP50 may be the saviour, rather than having to send the Pearl back for repair/replacement!

bejoro

01-24-07, 08:01 AM

I have a problem with PAL 576i YPbPr input to the VP-50.

If I feed the COMP2 input of my VP-50 (FW 1.01) with a YPbPr PAL interlaced (576i) signal I get completely crushed blacks. No "Blacker than Black" any more, crushed blacks below 30IRE. I had to change the IRE setting of my DVD player from 0IRE to 7.5IRE to get the blacks back (this is only a workaround), because PAL needs 0IRE.

If I connect the player directly to the display device, everything is fine.
If I use a RGBS signal (576i) everything is fine.

At present I am using the analog YPbPr output of the VP-50.
So 576i PAL50 interlaced YPbPr in to 576p@50 YPbPr out => blacks are totally crushed

If I switch my DVD player to 576p then everyting is all right, no crushed blacks at 0IRE.

Please, could anyone confirm that or did I make a mistake?

oferlaor

01-24-07, 09:20 AM

Just to clear up the point from 2 pages ago re: the VP30.

AFAIK, they are fixing the audio issues first on the VP50 and those will subsequently find their way to the VP30.

With the shift inside ABT (I'm still not getting any responses from Josh either) I hope that's still the plan - that's how it was last time I spoke with him.

mark haflich

01-24-07, 10:32 AM

Whew. Just keep hanging on, another 6 months and happiness, eh? :) How long has it been already?

Abbas

01-24-07, 12:16 PM

purely anecdotal, Barry, but fwiw, with my PS3 and vp50, when connecting via hdmi and outputting via the BNC/analog outs, the curtains closed, and there was no output (actually, I could see the PS3s output for half a second, while the curtain was closing.) You are correct, in that I could see 1080i via the component cables - perhaps it is just a PS3 choice. Its the only HD device I own, so I can't say. But once I connected the VP to an HDCP enabled device on the HDMI output, the curtains opened, and the PS3 would happily output any res, up to and including 1080p.

With some other source device, ymmv. In my case, with my PS3, an HDCP output device must be present.

I have the VP50 connected to a HDCP device but I get the curtains to close on PS3 via HDMI. I get to see the picture for a fraction of second before it closes. I have written to DVDO about this and they cant figure it out either.

flyingvee

01-24-07, 01:16 PM

Gary Murrell

01-24-07, 02:21 PM

I have the VP50 connected to a HDCP device but I get the curtains to close on PS3 via HDMI. I get to see the picture for a fraction of second before it closes. I have written to DVDO about this and they cant figure it out either.

make sure that under your output setup on the VP50 that HDCP is being output/enabled and then under input adjust for the PS3 HDMI input make sure that HDCP is enabled under the HDMI settings

-Gary

Abbas

01-24-07, 02:31 PM

Are you sure the device is hdcp compliant? i.e., have you tried just connecting the PS3 direct? If that works, then it is the VP50s problem - but as well as mine worked, once I got the right devices, I would suspect your pj is at fault. Unless you have hdcp set to "OFF" in the VP menu, and I doubt if that is the case. That fraction is exactly what I had, until I connected via hdmi out from the VP.

make sure that under your output setup on the VP50 that HDCP is being output/enabled and then under input adjust for the PS3 HDMI input make sure that HDCP is enabled under the HDMI settings

Yes, the panel is HDCP compliant. I have never had any problems in the past using the Iscan HD+. Unfortunetly, the panel accepts only 1080p so there is no way for me to set the PS3 at 1080p output via HDMI in the blind and then hook it up. I didnt have any problems with the PS3, Calibre Vantage HD and the panel. HDCP is set to 'ON' in the VP. I checked both. In fact I have even exchanged my VP50 unit and it still does not work.

TallCoolOne

01-24-07, 02:52 PM

Yes, the panel is HDCP compliant. I have never had any problems in the past using the Iscan HD+. Unfortunetly, the panel accepts only 1080p so there is no way for me to set the PS3 at 1080p output via HDMI in the blind and then hook it up. I didnt have any problems with the PS3, Calibre Vantage HD and the panel. HDCP is set to 'ON' in the VP. I checked both. In fact I have even exchanged my VP50 unit and it still does not work.

mine does this too, except if i turn the VP50 off and on again it fixes it. There is definitely some weird behavior going on with the PS3 and VP50 though. Mine will have the HDCP error every now and then when switching from a BD/DVD to PS3 menu (or vice-versa) or even sometimes just when switching from BD disc playback to the disc's root menu. I turn the VP50 off and on again and it always fixes it.

flyingvee

01-24-07, 05:34 PM

Yes, the panel is HDCP compliant. I have never had any problems in the past using the Iscan HD+. Unfortunetly, the panel accepts only 1080p so there is no way for me to set the PS3 at 1080p output via HDMI in the blind and then hook it up.

Not sure if that is entirely true - once I got hmdi properly connected, the PS3 found it all by itself. (as far as detecting the HDMI cable, and setting a viable res.) Did you try the PS3 trick, where you turn it off, then turn it on with the button on the PS3 (not the remote), holding the button for 5 seconds, forcing a reset in the PS3? I had to do that once - but that is because I'm switching between component out for my panel, and hdmi out for my crt. I had to do that to force it into detecting the hdmi, so I could have the display to work with. Much like your Catch-22.

Abbas

01-25-07, 01:29 AM

Not sure if that is entirely true - once I got hmdi properly connected, the PS3 found it all by itself. (as far as detecting the HDMI cable, and setting a viable res.) Did you try the PS3 trick, where you turn it off, then turn it on with the button on the PS3 (not the remote), holding the button for 5 seconds, forcing a reset in the PS3? I had to do that once - but that is because I'm switching between component out for my panel, and hdmi out for my crt. I had to do that to force it into detecting the hdmi, so I could have the display to work with. Much like your Catch-22.

Yes, I did the trick too and it still doesnt work. I was told by Aaron at DVDO to just use a component cable at 1080i until they can figure out the problem.

aaronwt

01-25-07, 05:33 AM

I had the same problem until I switched inputs and then switched back to the PS3 input. The picture came right up after doing that.

oferlaor

01-25-07, 05:52 AM

Mark Haflich,

what other choice is there...

I agree that firmware updating companies should be applauded and companies that neglect to update buggy products should be unexalted.

bejoro

01-25-07, 07:50 AM

NORLL

01-25-07, 12:56 PM

This is a massive thread, but I cannot seem to find what I'm looking for. Therefor I will ask. Please forgive me if this has been answered earlier...

Does the VP-50 do the following;

1. HDMI 1080p24/25 input (film-based material) -> vertical stretch for anamorphic lens -> HDMI 1080p24/25 output

2. HDMI 1080i60/50 input (film-based material) -> vertial stretch for anamorphic lens -> HDMI 1080p24/25 output

3. HDMI 720p60/50 input (film-based material) -> vertical stretch for anamorphic lens -> HDMI 1080p24/25 output

I want to use the VP-50 with a Sony VPL-VW50 projector and would like like to have the above mentioned features. I live in Europe, so 24/25/50/60Hz is important.

studlygoorite

01-25-07, 01:01 PM

I have two questions about the VP 50. I have it hooked up to my Mits HC5000 and I cannot get a signal on the BNC input, I have RCA to BNC adapters and a component plugged into the red, green blue but no signal, anyone know why? Second question is some of my inputs are RGB color space and some are YPbPr will I have to switch the output color space to match everytime I switch inputs? Or can I somehow change all inputs to the same color space?
Thanks in advance, John

donjulio

01-25-07, 02:54 PM

Not sure if this has been asked and answered yet, if it has, then I am apologize for asking it again, but I could not find an answer using the search, so here it goes.

Can the VP50 passthrough LPCM or PCM via HDMI? For those of you who are using HD-DVD player or BD player, can you use HDMI for audio when sending multi-channel LPCM to the VP50 and then from the VP50 to your pre/pro or rcvr?

Thanks.

flyingvee

01-25-07, 03:17 PM

jschefdog

01-25-07, 03:37 PM

Can the VP50 passthrough LPCM or PCM via HDMI? For those of you who are using HD-DVD player or BD player, can you use HDMI for audio when sending multi-channel LPCM to the VP50 and then from the VP50 to your pre/pro or rcvr?
With the current beta firmware the VP50 will pass 5.1 channel PCM from a source to a receiver over HDMI. However, on my setup it sometimes doesn't work after startup. At first I only get 2 channel PCM to the receiver. I have to switch the VP50 to a different input, then switch back to the HDMI input with the 5.1 PCM to make it work. After that it is fine, although occasionally I lose audio completely after an operation such as FF or menu. Switching the VP50 input restores it. I am using a Toshiba HD-A1 and Yamaha HTR-5990 receiver, but other equipment may behave differently.

flint350

01-25-07, 04:39 PM

With the current beta firmware the VP50 will pass 5.1 channel PCM from a source to a receiver over HDMI. However, on my setup it sometimes doesn't work after startup. At first I only get 2 channel PCM to the receiver. I have to switch the VP50 to a different input, then switch back to the HDMI input with the 5.1 PCM to make it work. After that it is fine, although occasionally I lose audio completely after an operation such as FF or menu. Switching the VP50 input restores it. I am using a Toshiba HD-A1 and Yamaha HTR-5990 receiver, but other equipment may behave differently.

I have basically the same issue. Yet another on-going audio problem with this series scaler - unless this can be more correctly attributed to the sticky nature of all HDMI handshakes and other issues and not simply a scaler problem.

studlygoorite

01-25-07, 05:50 PM

studly - BNC input only accepts a few res - some computer res, plus (maybe) 720p and or 1080i. If I remember correctly, it will not accept 480i - so if that is what you're feeding it, that's why you can't see it.

Thanks flyingvee, you are correct, I took one of my satellite dishes out and put the Xbox 360 into the BNC, it did not work on 1080i but it did on 720p. I don't want to keep the 360 on 720p though so the VP 50 can deinterlace at 1080i so I guess I won't be using that input.

mz4

01-25-07, 06:22 PM

Hi.

For setting the framerate output for 60 Hz materials, would you select 59.94 Hz or 60.00 Hz? I am having some judder issues and I was thinking that this might be the problem.

Thanks

aaronwt

01-25-07, 06:34 PM

With the current beta firmware the VP50 will pass 5.1 channel PCM from a source to a receiver over HDMI. However, on my setup it sometimes doesn't work after startup. At first I only get 2 channel PCM to the receiver. I have to switch the VP50 to a different input, then switch back to the HDMI input with the 5.1 PCM to make it work. After that it is fine, although occasionally I lose audio completely after an operation such as FF or menu. Switching the VP50 input restores it. I am using a Toshiba HD-A1 and Yamaha HTR-5990 receiver, but other equipment may behave differently.

I hope they fix this. I just ordered a 1x2 HDMI HDCP compliant splitter so I can split the output of the VP50 and have one signal go to the TV and another go to the receiver for audio. That way I can connect my A2 and PS3 directly to the VP50without going to the receiver first. Between that 1x2 HDMI splitter, a 5 way HDMI switch, and the FLEA I'm getting for broadcast sources that are connected to the 5 way HDMI switch before going to the VP50 it's going to be an HDMi cabling nightmare going to all the different boxes.

Dale Adams

01-25-07, 06:57 PM

For setting the framerate output for 60 Hz materials, would you select 59.94 Hz or 60.00 Hz? I am having some judder issues and I was thinking that this might be the problem.Neither - you want to use the 60 Hz Locked option. If you're manually setting the output framerate with the unlocked option you will always see some judder as there will be dropped or repeated frames regardless of what you set the framerate to be. The locked option ensures that there will be exactly 1 output frame for every input frame/field. (See the DVDO website VP50 FAQ for a more detailed explanation.)

- Dale Adams

flyingvee

01-25-07, 09:40 PM

I hope they fix this. I just ordered a 1x2 HDMI HDCP compliant splitter so I can split the output of the VP50 and have one signal go to the TV and another go to the receiver for audio.

Let us know how this works, aaron. If it does, maybe it'll work for me - I'd like to split the hdmi out of my PS3 into both the VP and into my lcd panel. :)

mz4

01-25-07, 10:04 PM

Thanks for the clarification on 60 hz setting

docrog

01-26-07, 01:44 AM

MikeAlletto

01-26-07, 03:26 PM

Does anyone have a link that contains images of before and after pics of the processing that these video processors do to an image? Preferably dvd samples and hd samples?

I know that every display device and source is different but I'm trying to get an idea of general effectiveness.

Axel

01-26-07, 04:51 PM

Does anyone have a link that contains images of before and after pics of the processing that these video processors do to an image? .....

That would actually be pretty easy to do, if DVDO had delivered the promised pass-through feature already. Thus far, one needs to unplug/plug devices around, potentially rebooting one or more of them, etc....

I know, this is not really helpful, but I am getting a bit frustrated about the lack of response from DVDO as of late.... [/rant] :mad:
____
Axel

jschefdog

01-26-07, 06:46 PM

While I was setting up my new HT this evening, I experienced a glitch that I can't remember being described here. With an HDMI cable connecting my PS3 to the VP50 I lost the center channel for both Blu-Ray and SD DVDs. The R & L mains and all surrounds remained active. Playing the same SD DVD in another player (linked to the VP50 by a digital audio cable) the center channel was rock solid. Nothing was different in the output of the VP50 to a Meridian 861 controller (digital coaxial) for any of these discs. Any thoughts or fixes would be greatly appreciated!
Try switching the VP50 to a different input (doesn't matter which one) then switching back. As described a few posts back, this can restore 5.1 channel PCM output from the VP50. I see the same thing with my HD-A1 after startup, I only get 2 channel PCM. It is not 5.1 channels remixed to 2 channels, it is only the left and right channel of the 5.1 channels, no sound from the center or surrounds. It's pretty interesting when you realize that you aren't getting any dialog, just music or sound effects.

keenan

01-26-07, 07:16 PM

barrygordon

01-26-07, 08:57 PM

I have been puzzeling over something. The 5.1 audio streams that accompany many HD transmissions are encoded. It is my understanding that the VP50 does not decode these audio streams but just passes them on. Is this correct?

If that is the case than if suddenly the center channel disappears then how is the VP50 doing that? It has got to be the source deciding that the sink can no longer take a full encoded 5.1 signal. But even then wouldn't one expect that if the source was doing that because the sink can not process encoded 5.1 that it would not just drop the center but rather produce a reasonable two channel signal?

It seems to me that there must be something else going on, not just the VP50 screwing up. Remember in the HDMI/HDCP world, there are many ways to cause a reinitialization/resynchronization of the HDCP handshake, but that does not imply that the item that is forcing the reset of the handshake is the one at fault.

Just my 2 cents..

aaronwt

01-26-07, 09:02 PM

I've never had just the center channel drop. I've only had it pass 2 channel pcm and everything else produce no sound. But a quick change of inputs corrects this. Forytunately it is very rare.

flyingvee

01-26-07, 09:06 PM

While I was setting up my new HT this evening, I experienced a glitch that I can't remember being described here. With an HDMI cable connecting my PS3 to the VP50 I lost the center channel for both Blu-Ray and SD DVDs. The R & L mains and all surrounds remained active. Playing the same SD DVD in another player (linked to the VP50 by a digital audio cable) the center channel was rock solid. Nothing was different in the output of the VP50 to a Meridian 861 controller (digital coaxial) for any of these discs. Any thoughts or fixes would be greatly appreciated!

I'd be suspecting the PS3, not the VP in this case. The audio output section of the PS3 is poorly documented at best; I've experienced some problems, and I'm just trying to get the audio via toslink. The fact that the center channel was "rock solid" with a different player would only tend to confirm the PS3 as the likely source of problems.

One thing you may want to try is connecting via toslink (I know, you want the lossless sound, but you can still try it, just for the sake of narrowing things down.)

Uh, I just reread your post. HDMI sound in, toslink sound out, I'd be very suspicious. Since you are limited to toslink audio anyway, just run one out of the PS3, check all of the sound options in the PS3 menu, and you may well be good.

Gary Murrell

01-26-07, 09:40 PM

all you need to split HDMI outputs is this cable ;)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000FMJLQC.01-A3COPTWNSDH5J3._AA280_SCLZZZZZZZ_V51609429_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/HDMI-Splitter-Premium-Cable/dp/B000FMJLQC

when I can get a HDMI pre-amp, I plan to do exactly what Aaron and others are doing, one of these babies for each of my HDMI sources, or the VP50 ;)

-Gary

flyingvee

01-26-07, 09:58 PM

Gary - have you tried one, and if so, how well do they work? As funky as the VP (and anything else) is with hdmi, it seems as if there may be problems if one doesn't use an active splitter. Not arguing - jus wondrin. Such a simple (and Inexpensive) solution seems contrary to our little addiction (oops, I meant hobby.) But if it works, I'm sure game. ;)

Paul H

01-26-07, 11:20 PM

I hope they fix this. I just ordered a 1x2 HDMI HDCP compliant splitter so I can split the output of the VP50 and have one signal go to the TV and another go to the receiver for audio. That way I can connect my A2 and PS3 directly to the VP50without going to the receiver first. Between that 1x2 HDMI splitter, a 5 way HDMI switch, and the FLEA I'm getting for broadcast sources that are connected to the 5 way HDMI switch before going to the VP50 it's going to be an HDMi cabling nightmare going to all the different boxes.
Didn't work for me! :mad: Posted a thread on the SMR forum on January 23, 2007 about it: Splitter for HDMI 1080P bypass of MC12HD? (http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=283)

all you need to split HDMI outputs is this cable ;)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000FMJLQC.01-A3COPTWNSDH5J3._AA280_SCLZZZZZZZ_V51609429_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/HDMI-Splitter-Premium-Cable/dp/B000FMJLQC

when I can get a HDMI pre-amp, I plan to do exactly what Aaron and others are doing, one of these babies for each of my HDMI sources, or the VP50 ;)

-Gary
Be careful what you recommend. :rolleyes: The above splitter is not HDCP compliant. See January 10, 2007 thread: 1080p HDMI audio/video IN -> 1080i HDMI audio/video OUT??? Post #10 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9425023&&#post9425023)

Paul

flint350

01-27-07, 12:49 AM

Those type of inexpensive splitter solutions always look so tempting to me, but I thought the audio had to be stripped out of the signal (HDMI) and not just split. Plus, my cable box freaks out whenever it even thinks it's going to a repeater, causing even more complication. Yeah, this great HDMI "one wire" solution sure is the answer. (sarcasm on/off).

aaronwt

01-27-07, 01:38 AM

So far HDMI has been excellent for me. One cable for audio and video. Especially from the PS3 and SACDs. I can get the multichannel audio over HDMI instead of having 6 analog cables. Hopefully the HDCP compliant splitter from ConnectGear I ordered will work. It's supposed to ship out next week so hopefully I'll have it within a week of that.

Gary Murrell

01-27-07, 02:30 AM

Didn't work for me! :mad: Posted a thread on the SMR forum on January 23, 2007 about it: Splitter for HDMI 1080P bypass of MC12HD? (http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=283)

Be careful what you recommend. :rolleyes: The above splitter is not HDCP compliant. See January 10, 2007 thread: 1080p HDMI audio/video IN -> 1080i HDMI audio/video OUT??? Post #10 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9425023&&#post9425023)

Paul

the people quoted from monoprice feedback in your link are stupid, they are saying it sucks because it won't let them connect 2 devices to one input on their TV :rolleyes: , it is not a switcher which these folks cannot understand

this is a simple cable, so HDCP is not valid here, this merely doubles the output of a HDMI device, be it HDCP or or not, DVI or etc., said device ideally needs a really hot HDMI output, the VP50 fits that bill :)

Jon I will have one soon to play with ;)

-Gary

Axatax

01-27-07, 03:54 AM

this is a simple cable, so HDCP is not valid here, this merely doubles the output of a HDMI device, be it HDCP or or not, DVI or etc., said device ideally needs a really hot HDMI output, the VP50 fits that bill

I'd be interested in hearing your results when you get some time with this splitter.

What I don't understand is how the source device deals with the bi-directional nature of EDID data when connected to two different devices. AFAIK, even if the second output is only connected to a pre/pro, EDID is still an issue as it's used to present available audio fomats to the source device.

All of the HDMI "splitter" type devices by Geffen et al are active devices which utilize Si sender/receivers, which takes the EDID issues into account.

keenan

01-27-07, 04:46 AM

What I don't understand is how the source device deals with the bi-directional nature of EDID data when connected to two different devices.
That's what I was wondering as well.

docrog

01-27-07, 05:17 AM

For those who responded to my question regarding loss of the center channel when playing DVDs from the PS3 to the VP50, I discovered that it was necesary to do a CUSTOM audio setting in the PS3, forcing 5.1 output. I find it surprising that the PS3 AUTO audio configuration for HDMI defaulted to 2 channel (L & R), without center OR surrounds (I had been mistaken in originally thinking that the surrounds were in the mix). Therefore, NO apparent VP50 culpability here!

fvale

01-27-07, 07:55 AM

Hello. I have a friend of mine with who isn't able to get 1:1 mapping on his Samsung le-40m61b lcd panel. It should have a 1360x768 resolution but when he tries one of the two default saved same res. settings on the vp50 panel says "not accepted" or something like that. He also tested 1366x768.
Connections is through HDMI, he's only able to see an image with resolutions of 480i/p or 576i/p, VGA, 720i/p or 1080i.

Any idea it these Samsung panels aren't able to accept 1:1 pixel mapping through HDMI?

Thank you!

GerryWaz

01-27-07, 09:16 AM

Something I've noticed with the VP50 is that it seems to get "lazy" after awhile. By that I mean it will work fine for days/week and then have problems that a power pull always fixes. I notice this with the TiVo S3 utilizing the native output. The VP50 will lose the ability to lock onto the resolution changes, pulling the power fixes it and it's good to go for another week or so.

I have no idea if there is a logical, or technical reason for the behavior, it's just something I've noticed.
I may have something similar. Quite a few pages back, I mentioned getting "Serious Error 12" every so often. I was still getting this from time to time. This usually seem to happen sometimes after watching HD cable for a while and then switching to a DVD movie, watching that, and then using my Harmony 880 to turn everything off (except the VP50, which I left on--the LED being red).

When I got the "Serious Error 12", unplugging the unit for some time seemed to "get rid" of the error. (If I unplugged the unit and then re-plugged it back in immediately, the "Serious Error 12" remained.)

After doing this, the picture and video processing seemed as good as ever. Not sure how long the unit has to be unplugged to "clear" the error message.

So what I have started to do, is first put the VP50 in standby mode using the remote and then using the Harmony to turn everything else off. (I suppose I could program this into the Harmony but I haven't pursued that yet.)

Since doing this for the past four weeks I have not seen the Serious Error 12 return (with fingers crossed). I was getting the error every 1-3 weeks.

Aaron at DVDO was very helpful back when I first reported this. He suggested sending the unit back to him. I may do this soon--but only after the Stupor Bowl.

aaronwt

01-27-07, 09:26 AM

I've never seen that error but I also always put the VP50 in standby with the Harmony remote when I hit the Harmony Off button.

GerryWaz

01-27-07, 09:59 AM

I've never seen that error but I also always put the VP50 in standby with the Harmony remote when I hit the Harmony Off button.
Do you remember if that was easy to do and can you order the commands so the standby command to the VP50 is executed first?

Thanks!

aaronwt

01-27-07, 12:42 PM

Do you remember if that was easy to do and can you order the commands so the standby command to the VP50 is executed first?

Thanks!
I just set it up so when I hit the off button it issues the standby command. I don't remember if I had to teach the HArmony the standby command from the DVD remote of if it was already in the database. I never played around with the order that the command is sent when I hit the off button.

jeff_tyrrill

01-27-07, 02:00 PM

I'd be interested in hearing your results when you get some time with this splitter.

What I don't understand is how the source device deals with the bi-directional nature of EDID data when connected to two different devices. AFAIK, even if the second output is only connected to a pre/pro, EDID is still an issue as it's used to present available audio fomats to the source device.

All of the HDMI "splitter" type devices by Geffen et al are active devices which utilize Si sender/receivers, which takes the EDID issues into account.
Maybe the pins used to transmit EDID aren't connected?

According to the Wikipedia article on DDC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_data_channel) (Display Data Channel, used to transmit EDID):
The DDC link is carried on three pins – data, clock and ground – in a 15-pin VGA connector, a DVI connector or an HDMI connector.
So it might be possible to just disconnect those pins.

keenan

01-27-07, 02:31 PM

If they weren't connected then the devices wouldn't handshake would they? If so, then the equipment wouldn't work together.

I'm very curious to see Gary's report on using that cable.

I get the sense that it will work fine for non-HDCP compliant devices, but how many of those are around?

Axatax

01-27-07, 04:44 PM

So it might be possible to just disconnect those pins.

I'm pretty sure the HDCP handshake requires EDID to be connected.

escon

01-27-07, 05:20 PM

Do you remember if that was easy to do and can you order the commands so the standby command to the VP50 is executed first?

Thanks!I too use my Harmony to put the VP50 into standby and I too don't suffer from what some report as a slow deterioration of the VP50 over time. There's nothing to specifically do with the Harmony - I just used the normal setup program without modification. Is there any special reason though why you would want to have the VP50 put into standby in a particular order?

GerryWaz

01-27-07, 05:42 PM

I too use my Harmony to put the VP50 into standby and I too don't suffer from what some report as a slow deterioration of the VP50 over time. There's nothing to specifically do with the Harmony - I just used the normal setup program without modification. Is there any special reason though why you would want to have the VP50 put into standby in a particular order?

Just in case it was not the VP50 causing the problem, like something happening with the STB or the TV to the VP50 or the Harmony commands being transmitted.

Probably doesn't make sense but what do expect from a noob (me) to all this. :D

flyingvee

01-27-07, 08:10 PM

Jon I will have one soon to play with ;)

-Gary

Cool - will be waiting for a thumbs up (or down.) I'll predict down; I'll hope that I'm wrong, and it is aces for you. (and us.) :cool:

mz4

01-27-07, 08:55 PM

escon

01-27-07, 10:23 PM

I am in a dilemma as to how to set the video paths to and from VP50. In my case, I have a display that can only take rgb (vga) input. If this is the case, is it better to

Scenario 1:

Tosh HD-a1 (hdmi) -> VP50 -> dvi/vga converter -> display

Scenario 2:

Tosh HD-a1 (component) -> VP50 (rgbhv) -> display

Of these 2 methods, which would result in a better picture? Does vp50 perform a/d conversion on component inputs even if the output is set to rgbhv?

ThanksFrom what I've seen of the Tosh's component output PQ, I would go for scenario 1. A friend of mine brought his Tosh-a1 over a little while ago to see how it would look on my setup (thru the VP50 and out as DVI over the HDMI output into professional 40in LCD panel). Initially I thought that we wouldn't be able to get anything above 480/576i over component, but to our surprise, the DVD he brougt along obviously allowed up scaling to 1080i over component.

Anyways, the PQ was mediocre at best compared to a true 1920 x 1080p 15Mb/s video clip that I ran of my Snazio Media player on its own internal DVD drive (or over the network), and barely better than my SDI'd OPPO 970H. Of course, the source (his DVD) may not have been mastered of a good quality print to begin with, so you always have to keep that in mind when making PQ judgements.

As my display doesn't support HDCP, we couldn't evaluate the HDMI output. As you are in a similar boat, no HDCP on your display, I would go for option 1, provided that your DVI->VGA box has HDCP decoding built in. Some, but not all, do from what I've read. This would ensure that you can always see the DVD at its highest resolution (not scaled down due to lack of HDCP authentication) and on the assumption that the HDMI output is or gives better PQ than the component output.

In regard to your question whether the VP50 performs A to D and D to A internally when going from component input to RGBHV out, it would have to as it allows the full gamut of picture and resolution adjustments to the incoming signal.

Gary J

01-27-07, 10:54 PM

the DVD he brougt along obviously allowed up scaling to 1080i over component.

Are you talking about a SD-DVD? I think he means HD-DVD. Anyway wouldn't the DSC in the Toshiba likely be better than the DAC in a dvi/vga converter?

escon

01-27-07, 11:23 PM

Are you talking about a SD-DVD? I think he means HD-DVD. Anyway wouldn't the DSC in the Toshiba likely be better than the DAC in a dvi/vga converter?
No, no, no, I was talking about HD-DVD!! This is the point I was trying to make. The component output of the Toshy playing a HD-DVD was barely better than playing a good quality SD DVD thru my SDI'd Oppo.

This was the whole disappointing thing. We had both expected better than that. We didn't do a comparative test by running the same SD DVD through both players as we focused on seeing how well HD DVD came through, when compared to a quaility 1920 x 1080p 15Mb/s clip - the sort of quality that we are supposed to be getting from HD DVDs.

But, as I said, we only looked at one title. My friend did comment though that he thought it looked a lot better on his plasma when he viewed it through the HDMI port of the Toshy on his system - hence my recommendation to use the HDMI port (apart from not being guaranteed up-scaling through the component port)

Yes, the DAC in the Toshy may well be better than the one in the dvi/vga converter, but if the Toshy doesn't allow anything higher than 480/576i to be outputed when playing HD or SD DVDs, then he may be better off taking his chances with the dvi/vga converter.

Gary J

01-27-07, 11:36 PM

All HD-DVD players output 720p/1080i over component.

escon

01-27-07, 11:43 PM

All HD-DVD players output 720p/1080i over component.Only so far on HD DVDs I'm told. That may change in the future. I've read - and please check this out - that SD DVDs are NOT scaled over component (or HDMI) without HDCP.

Josh Z

01-27-07, 11:43 PM

Tosh HD-a1 (hdmi) -> VP50 -> dvi/vga converter -> display

This won't work due to HDCP encryption. Converting the signal to VGA breaks the HDCP handshake and you'll get no picture.

As you are in a similar boat, no HDCP on your display, I would go for option 1, provided that your DVI->VGA box has HDCP decoding built in. Some, but not all, do from what I've read.

I have one of the original DC-DA1 boxes that was able to decode HDCP. I used it with my last projector, which only had a VGA input, and at the time it worked when pairing an HDMI DVD player and cable box to the projector. However, I recently dug it out for a test, connecting an HD DVD player to a VGA monitor and it failed to produce a picture. I think the recent HDCP protocols are designed to foil such devices.

If you don't have an HDMI display, you're forced to use the player's component video outputs. Fortunately, at this time no HD DVD or Blu-ray discs are coded with an ICT flag that would force a resolution reduction over component. You'll get full 1080i from that output.

escon

01-27-07, 11:51 PM

Thanks for the replies

Escon, following your advice I have set according to scenario 1 and I have to say this does seem to result in a much sharper picture. Perhaps since there is only one d/a conversion involved?Well, I was about to reply to Josh's post, and say "what a bummer". BUt, it seems you already have the dvi-vga converter AND you've got it to work. Well done!!.

mz4

01-27-07, 11:51 PM

So it sounds like component is the best option for me.

Thanks for the replies

escon

01-27-07, 11:56 PM

So it sounds like component is the best option for me.

Thanks for the repliesEh...I'm a little confused now :confused: .Were you doing the comparison with an HDCP compliant display? If so, you've confirmed that the HDMI output of the Toshy IS a lot sharper/has better definition than the component output.

escon

01-28-07, 12:04 AM

If you don't have an HDMI display, you're forced to use the player's component video outputs. Fortunately, at this time no HD DVD or Blu-ray discs are coded with an ICT flag that would force a resolution reduction over component. You'll get full 1080i from that output.I think this isn't going to last forever! It's obviously done to entice the public to accept/evaluate HD DVD, but I'll bet that within 6 months, or at the very latest when the BR vs HD war is settled, the honymoon will be over. :eek: . I think that if you haven't got a compliant HDCP display device, you are going to get caught between a rock and a very hard place.

I'm looking at HD-SDI for that very reason- no HDCP to worry about!!. One company is apparently offering such an upgrade already for the Toshy. Now all we need is for DVDO to deliver an HD-SDI module to go into the VP50. Hey, that finally brings us back on topic. I guess a lot of this stuff has already been covered in the HD DVD thread(s).

danielo

01-28-07, 03:01 AM

I'm looking at HD-SDI for that very reason- no HDCP to worry about!!. One company is apparently offering such an upgrade already for the Toshy. Now all we need is for DVDO to deliver an HD-SDI module to go into the VP50. Hey, that finally brings us back on topic. I guess a lot of this stuff has already been covered in the HD DVD thread(s).

Last time i talked to someone who should know he told me that the HDSDI card for the vp50 was about to be released this was about 6 weeks ago so that also looks delayed (my guess).

Greetings,

Daniel.

oferlaor

01-28-07, 07:13 AM

Daniel,

I had not heard any official word on HD-SDI for VP50.

Gino AUS

01-28-07, 07:18 AM

Nope... only unofficial :)

I hope it comes soon though, as I'm growing tired of waiting for it, I'll give it another 2-3 months, then I'll probably upgrade to the Crystallio II or perhaps the Radiance

Warren460

01-28-07, 07:46 AM

I just tried my second blue ray disk playing from my ps3 to my vp50.

I would estimate that we had over 100 audio drops that lasted a fraction of a second.

Ps3 is feeding the vp50 via hdmi and using either fibre optic or cable connection to bryston sp2.

Any thoughts.

When feeding the vp50 from my Toshiba HD A1, we have similar problems to other posters. Ie. very occassional audio drops that are difficult to recover from. The other exception is King Kong. Somehow my VP50 detected/decided that the audio format changes after a chapter jump and switches from bitstream to pcm and a terrible noise comes from my system.

Thanks

Josh Z

01-28-07, 09:52 AM

I think this isn't going to last forever! It's obviously done to entice the public to accept/evaluate HD DVD, but I'll bet that within 6 months, or at the very latest when the BR vs HD war is settled, the honymoon will be over. :eek: .

Rumor is that all of the studios have an unofficial agreement to hold off on implementing ICT until at least 2010, possibly 2012. This should give the majority of interested High Definition consumers enough time to upgrade to an HDMI display.

flyingvee

01-28-07, 12:31 PM

This won't work due to HDCP encryption. Converting the signal to VGA breaks the HDCP handshake and you'll get no picture.

I have one of the original DC-DA1 boxes that was able to decode HDCP. I used it with my last projector, which only had a VGA input, and at the time it worked when pairing an HDMI DVD player and cable box to the projector. However, I recently dug it out for a test, connecting an HD DVD player to a VGA monitor and it failed to produce a picture. I think the recent HDCP protocols are designed to foil such devices.

True in your case, with your device, I won't dispute that - you are too distinguished a contributor. However, I do know, from my own experience, that the PS3 will output hdmi bd disks, and it works thru both of my convertors. So all you have really confirmed is that your DC-DA-1 no longer works. :(

OTOH, there is still an inexpensive one that does work for the PS3 - no idea if it works for your HD-DVD, don't have one. So easy on the blanket statements, scaring folks. There are still options that don't involve vaporware HD-SDI solutions.