The unit will have to be charged import duty and vat total 20% irrespective of where and how the unit is delivered

Yes, but the salient point is who pays the VAT? The above two examples cite history whereby the end-user didn't directly pay VAT, they only paid the USD price and the distributor supplied the unit. Rather than a direct supply from DVDO in which case VAT would be paid by the end-user in addition to the USD purchase price. Someone obviously paid VAT, either the importer or the shipper, but it wasn't the end user. But obviously they did pay indirectly, because VAT was built into the USD purchase price.

This will be an important consideration for many sitting on the fence, whether to upgrade or not. Having to pay VAT in addition to the USD price might sway the balance against taking up the upgrade offer. If I might hazard a guess, based on what Josh has said, is that you are going to have to cough up more money to get your VP50 landed in the UK.

Let us know how you get on come the time.

The unit will have to be charged import duty and vat total 20% irrespective of where and how the unit is delivered

Maybe you should just not talk about it.. its a upgrade... :)

Daniel.

[QUOTE=danielo]Maybe you should just not talk about it.. its a upgrade... :)

Daniel.[/QUOTE
Not for everybody,Daniel,with some its a first time buy,and its as well they realise that they have to find another wad of cash before they get delivery.

[QUOTE=danielo]Maybe you should just not talk about it.. its a upgrade... :)

Daniel.[/QUOTE
Not for everybody,Daniel,with some its a first time buy,and its as well they realise that they have to find another wad of cash before they get delivery.

Ok sorry didn't mean to make fun of the question but for people upgrading i would not ask too many questions its done in a way that seems to be a win-win for all involved.

Daniel.

Hmmm - this is a little wierd. The units are shipped to us from the local disti - not directly from DVDO, so we don't pay the VAT on import - that would be paid as part of the import process by the disti. When I upgraded last time (Ultra to VP30) I ended up paying the amount charged by DVDO and that was all. I didn't pay anything else - however, of course, this could have been an oversight and I could have got a lucky break last time around. I'll get in touch with our local disti, and check in with Baptiste at DVDO, who's the international guy there.


Hi PeteS,
What have you found out? I am in a similar situation as I bought the HD+ from the UK. So would be very interested to have a low-down on the UK VAT situation on this before I make up my mind to upgrade to the HD+.

THANKS!

Hi PeteS,
What have you found out? I am in a similar situation as I bought the HD+ from the UK. So would be very interested to have a low-down on the UK VAT situation on this before I make up my mind to upgrade to the HD+.

THANKS!

Nothing new as yet - I'll let everyone know.

Yes, but the salient point is who pays the VAT? The above two examples cite history whereby the end-user didn't directly pay VAT, they only paid the USD price and the distributor supplied the unit. Rather than a direct supply from DVDO in which case VAT would be paid by the end-user in addition to the USD purchase price. Someone obviously paid VAT, either the importer or the shipper, but it wasn't the end user. But obviously they did pay indirectly, because VAT was built into the USD purchase price.

This will be an important consideration for many sitting on the fence, whether to upgrade or not. Having to pay VAT in addition to the USD price might sway the balance against taking up the upgrade offer. If I might hazard a guess, based on what Josh has said, is that you are going to have to cough up more money to get your VP50 landed in the UK.

Let us know how you get on come the time.

Isn't that a problem with the government of that country charging the taxes? Wouldn't you need to take that issue up with the respective government?

Why? It still does edge detection.

That is still interpolated.

A film is split into two fields. If you weave those fields together, you have a complete frame. If you only use one of those fields and interpolate, you don't have the full vertical resolution of the source displayed at one time.

If you want to see what happens, use the VRS disc and play back the film detail clip. First play it in auto and then switch to game mode. You will see what happens.

Every progressive display on the market today has video latency. This includes Plasma, LCD and DLP. Most of them are using products like the FLI23xx, which has more latency than the ABT102.

Yes, but the salient point is who pays the VAT? The above two examples cite history whereby the end-user didn't directly pay VAT, they only paid the USD price and the distributor supplied the unit. Rather than a direct supply from DVDO in which case VAT would be paid by the end-user in addition to the USD purchase price. Someone obviously paid VAT, either the importer or the shipper, but it wasn't the end user. But obviously they did pay indirectly, because VAT was built into the USD purchase price.

This will be an important consideration for many sitting on the fence, whether to upgrade or not. Having to pay VAT in addition to the USD price might sway the balance against taking up the upgrade offer. If I might hazard a guess, based on what Josh has said, is that you are going to have to cough up more money to get your VP50 landed in the UK.

Let us know how you get on come the time.
Josh has already said DVDO DONT PAY YOUR VAT so who do you does pay it?

Josh has already said DVDO DONT PAY YOUR VAT so who do you does pay it?

Just ask your local dealer if he will send you a extra bill if he states no why don't you just feel happy.

Daniel.

That is still interpolated.

A film is split into two fields. If you weave those fields together, you have a complete frame. If you only use one of those fields and interpolate, you don't have the full vertical resolution of the source displayed at one time.

If you want to see what happens, use the VRS disc and play back the film detail clip. First play it in auto and then switch to game mode. You will see what happens.

Every progressive display on the market today has video latency. This includes Plasma, LCD and DLP. Most of them are using products like the FLI23xx, which has more latency than the ABT102.
yeah I know.

So are you basically saying that the game mode won't do a weave? I guess that makes sense since the assumption would be that a console is generating video-style interlaced images.

Cool. But I wouldn't say you're losing half the vertical resolution quite as much as you are with 1080i on the vp30.

Josh has already said DVDO DONT PAY YOUR VAT so who do you does pay it?
What danielo said ;) My head's going firmly in the sand at this point.

What danielo said ;) My head's going firmly in the sand at this point.

Yep - call me Ostrich

aaronwt
Do you still have a Samaung HLR TV? If so, what improvements are you looking for with the 1080i inputs, and most improvements seem to be for 1080p inputs. I really hope you can convince me of the worth. Thanks ;)

Input from anyone would be appreciated, as I need to make this decision before Monday

DVDO needs to update their advertising banner. ;)

So it won't be coming Sept. 6th?

My guess would be Monday, Oct 2nd.

That does sound a lot more realistic...

aaronwt
Do you still have a Samaung HLR TV? If so, what improvements are you looking for with the 1080i inputs, and most improvements seem to be for 1080p inputs. I really hope you can convince me of the worth. Thanks ;)

Input from anyone would be appreciated, as I need to make this decision before Monday

I really don't expect any improvements except maybe noise reduction down the road. I knew this would happen but with the generous upgrade trade in from DVDO plus with the AVS discount I need to upgrade now or later on there won't be an AVS discount and the trade in for the VP30 won't be as good. I am perfectly happy with my VP30. It is my fifth scaler in 4 years(H3D1, H3D2, HD, HD+, and VP30) so there is no need to stop now especially with the excellent price. If the price wasn't good I wouldn't even think about it. But the VP50 also has the ability to add elements later on by reprogramming the chip which isn't possible with the VP30. And who knows I might get a 1080P set that accepts 1080P on the HDMI instead of just the VGA input. Not likely for at least a year but you never know. I just can't pass up the excellent deal. DVDO really knows how to get repeat business. Their generous upgrade reputation was one of the main reasons I initially dumped my Holo3Dgraph2 for the iscanHD. The DVDO products have defintely been worth it.

>>> Who pays the VAT?

Say you live in Massachusetts and order a VP50 for USD $3000. (round numbers). It is shipped to you from California and no Mass. sales tax of $150. is collected. So far nobody has paid the sales tax.

Legally you must file a separate return and pay a use tax of $150 to Massachusetts. (Same number of dollars as the sales tax is or was, generally with a credit if you paid sales tax to another state when purchasing in a store)

You do not owe or pay California sales tax because you don't live in California and did not take possession of the item in California.

There must be a similar process for residents of countries with VAT to pay the VAT on their own, when they order stuff from overseas and no VAT was collected by the vendor or by the shipper or by customs.

And we all pay our state taxes for online sales, don't we? :D

.

And we all pay our state taxes for online sales, don't we? :D

.

Sure we do....... ;)

Will there be any issues with the above combination? It is my understanding that the new Optima includes a scaler/deinterlacer.

Will there be any issues with the above combination? It is my understanding that the new Optima includes a scaler/deinterlacer.

Well both are not shipping yet so you are way too early with the question. My guess is the biggest issue is that the H81 comes with a (gennum) scaler so if you already own a vp50 you will now have 2 highend scalers. So alot of people are hoping optoma will release a scaler less version. I own a optoma projector but my biggest concern with optoma is software updates they have alot to prove to me they can indeed release good software updates like what is needed in the highend scaler markt.

Daniel.

aaronwt
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I know about the urge not to pass up a good deal. Maybe if I close my eyes until Monday it will go away. :p

Our competitive upgrade page has been updated:
http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_comp_upg.php

These can be combined with the AVS Forum discount mentioned here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=714646

So Josh, any new time frame when it will be available (VP50)?

And we all pay our state taxes for online sales, don't we? :D

.

For those of us in CA there's no choice. It's assessed at checkout. Of course since DVDO is just down the street UPS ground is effectively overnight. One can think of tax as very expensive overnight shipping.

- Collin

Josh...on the DVDO web site when ordering stuff or looking at trade in programs to you folks consider Canada as International or is it treated as US..


Thanks

Canada is considered to be International.

The VP50 will be shown at CEDIA and will be shipping in September. As soon as we have a specific date, I will update everyone here.

Great! Thanks Josh. We will look forward to it mid or end September. :)

For those of us in CA there's no choice. It's assessed at checkout. Of course since DVDO is just down the street UPS ground is effectively overnight. One can think of tax as very expensive overnight shipping.

- Collin
At $188.43 sales tax it ought to be same day delivery. :p

NR conundrum: should I buy a Mosquito or wait for my VP50?? :confused:

For those of us in CA there's no choice. It's assessed at checkout. Of course since DVDO is just down the street UPS ground is effectively overnight. One can think of tax as very expensive overnight shipping.

- Collin

For Los Angeles it's very expensive 2 day shipping :(, but still not the week or more it can take to go across country by ground shipping.

The VP50 doc states that 1080p/24 genlocked output is only supported for SD.

Is this true, or is it a typo?

Is this what you are referring to:

Locked mode (2:2 or 3:3): For standard definition interlaced sources the iScan can detect 2:2 and 3:2 pulldown cadences and convert these to either a 2:2 or 3:3 frame repetition rate.

This is a typo and should read:

Locked mode (2:2 or 3:3): For all interlaced and progressive sources, except 1080p, the iScan can detect 2:2 and 3:2 pulldown cadences and convert these to either a 2:2 or 3:3 frame repetition rate.

Is this what you are referring to:

Locked mode (2:2 or 3:3): For standard definition interlaced sources the iScan can detect 2:2 and 3:2 pulldown cadences and convert these to either a 2:2 or 3:3 frame repetition rate.

This is a typo and should read:

Locked mode (2:2 or 3:3): For all interlaced and progressive sources, except 1080p, the iScan can detect 2:2 and 3:2 pulldown cadences and convert these to either a 2:2 or 3:3 frame repetition rate.

Yes, thanks, that's what I meant. It looked like a serious shortcoming, I'm glad it's just a typo.

Another question: I have many Japanese 2.35 recordings, where the active video area is near the top of the screen, and Japanese subtitles are mainly in the bottom.

I'd like to be able to move down the image to center the 2.35 part, and blank the subtitles.

Blanking is not a problem according to the manual, but moving might be since the manual implies that this can only be done when zooming.

Is this correct?

NR conundrum: should I buy a Mosquito or wait for my VP50?? :confused:

You could use both :) The VP50 won't include BAR and some of the other nice NR algorithms on the Mosquito.

If the output of the VP50 (or VP30 for that matter) is hooked to a DVI display, will the VP50 tell source devices hooked to its HDMI inputs that the display is DVI or HDMI?

The reason I ask is MANY devices make BAD assumptions when they are told the display they are connected to is a DVI device. Does a source DVD, Blue-Ray or HD-DVD player hooked via HDMI to a VP50 ALWAYS see it as an HDMI device, even if the output of the VP50 is hooked to a DVI display?

To which competitive product on the market the VP50 is comparable?

If the output of the VP50 (or VP30 for that matter) is hooked to a DVI display, will the VP50 tell source devices hooked to its HDMI inputs that the display is DVI or HDMI?

The VP20, VP30 and VP50 are HDMI Repeaters and that is what is reported to the source.

The reason I ask is MANY devices make BAD assumptions when they are told the display they are connected to is a DVI device. Does a source DVD, Blue-Ray or HD-DVD player hooked via HDMI to a VP50 ALWAYS see it as an HDMI device, even if the output of the VP50 is hooked to a DVI display?

Yes

@JOSH

Everyone who purchased the VP30 abroad from the US paid more than $1999. All in all, converted from Euros into US-Dollars I paid more than $3000 for my VP30 incl. ABT 102 at my local dealer in Germany.

Question: Is it possible to consider this in Trade-in program?
Because otherwise it is everything but profitable!

Best regards,
jenZ

To which competitive product on the market the VP50 is comparable?LumagenHDQ, Calibre Vantage HD, Optoma HD3000, Agolith Dragonfly, Key Digital iSync HD

Josh:So whether or not the output of the VP50 is hooked to a DVI display or an HDMI display, the source device can't tell, it only sees HDMI repeater on the other end. You don't relay any information about the final display device to the source, so the source device will only see HDMI. Is this correct?

Josh:So whether or not the output of the VP50 is hooked to a DVI display or an HDMI display, the source device can't tell, it only sees HDMI repeater on the other end. You don't relay any information about the final display device to the source, so the source device will only see HDMI. Is this correct?

Yes, this is correct.

Uzun I use a DVI CRT PJ device and all my sources are HDMI(except SDI DVD), what you are wondering works just like what Josh said

the VP30/50 in this regard takes care of the proper conversion to RGB from HDMI so you never have to worry about any of those issues ;)

-Gary

@JOSH

Everyone who purchased the VP30 abroad from the US paid more than $1999. All in all, converted from Euros into US-Dollars I paid more than $3000 for my VP30 incl. ABT 102 at my local dealer in Germany.

Question: Is it possible to consider this in Trade-in program?
Because otherwise it is everything but profitable!

Best regards,
jenZ
Seriously, how likely do you think that is? ;)

On the VP50 if one were to want a couple of output resolutions say 1080p/60 and 1080p/48, how is switching back and forth between those two output resolutions accomplished? Can you press a single button to change between selected output resolutions? Are there A and B memories for things like this?
Or you do have to go into the output menu, then reset a bunch of options to get 2:2 48hz output when you are in 60hz mode, and again to go back to 60hz when you are in 48hz mode?

I should have been more clear, VAT is not covered by DVDO. You need to check with your local distributor to find out specifics in your country.
Josh, a guy on the UK av forum is saying that he has been told by DVDO I nternational sales,that vat is included in the $250 and that uk customers will not have to pay any further taxes. Is this correct?

I have a sim c3x. the machine is a 3 chip dlp 720p machine.

I have found so far that the image produced by the toshiba hd dvd player ( prior to the new update fw 2.0) was somewhat better than most sd dvd's. The difference was not huge. This was the case wether the hd dvd player was set to 1080i or 720p.

I suspect that this might be the case because if the sim would down scale to 540p on the way to 720p.

Does any one know if the DVDO VP 50 would make a big difference in my set up.

In the alternative, maybe the sim did a fantistic job scaling SD material.

I am really trying to decide if I should get in on the power buy.

Josh, a guy on the UK av forum is saying that he has been told by DVDO I nternational sales,that vat is included in the $250 and that uk customers will not have to pay any further taxes. Is this correct?
No, he didn't say that VAT was included. He only said there'd be no additional VAT to pay for UK customers.

The DVDO order page says....

International customers: an international upgrade processing and handling fee of $250 will be added to your order. This fee will also cover shipping, customs duties and taxes for your new iScan.

I take it taxes does mean import tax.

OK...just got in on the AVS sponsored trade-in deal for the VP50. The trade-in on my HD+ is almost as much as I paid for it 1.5 years ago which is simply awesome. DVDO is doing an incredible job of building and maintaining loyal customers which drives continued repeat business with offers like this. Now it's time to sit back and relax until it ships. :)

On the VP50 if one were to want a couple of output resolutions say 1080p/60 and 1080p/48, how is switching back and forth between those two output resolutions accomplished? Can you press a single button to change between selected output resolutions?

on the VP30, one it takes a couple of button pushs - get to output setup, go to display profile, and chose the one you want. Not quite one push, but pretty transparent. I do that, switching between 720p and 1080i. One would have to assume the VP50 has the same functionality.

I have a sim c3x. the machine is a 3 chip dlp 720p machine.

I have found so far that the image produced by the toshiba hd dvd player ( prior to the new update fw 2.0) was somewhat better than most sd dvd's. The difference was not huge. This was the case wether the hd dvd player was set to 1080i or 720p.There is something very wrong here. I have a 720p projector (Optoma H79) and HD DVD looks substantially better than even the best DVDs. Yes, you should try an external processor that performs inverse telecine deinterlacing for 1080i sources.

Any one have problems ordering the VP50 upgrade via the AVS link here in the sticky?

I tried yesterday to take advantage of the $400 special before it expires today, along with trading in my VP30/ABT102.

I correctly entered my info and after submitting the order, got an error that my Mastercard has an expiration date problem (I had entered it correctly and my card is just fine, which I also later verified). I went back to the form, rechecked everything and then resubmitted. Then I got a duplicate transaction error message.

Not sure where I stand. Sent an e-mail to sales @dvdo.com but don't expect a response before Monday. Hope they still honor the $400 special.

Ahh the joys of online ordering . . .

Gerry you got the order in and should be taken care of I would guess, I have been in those exact situations before, deals coming like this, the last day and BAM a issue like this :mad:

-Gary

I have a sim c3x. the machine is a 3 chip dlp 720p machine.
I have found so far that the image produced by the toshiba hd dvd player ( prior to the new update fw 2.0) was somewhat better than most sd dvd's. The difference was not huge. This was the case wether the hd dvd player was set to 1080i or 720p.


I have the same PJ but haven't yet bought into HD-DVD (waiting for 2nd gen and my VP50). However, one source of your problem is probably in the Toshiba when you set it to output 720p. I believe the unit is known to have poor scaling performance when it scales from 1080 to 720 and needs to remain at 1080i for best output. That would seem to require a good external (or in-projector) scaler to get a good 720p output. I'm hopeful that a VP50 will provide excellent scaling of 1080i down to the required 720p of my C3X and, therefore, a very nice HD-DVD image.

I have a sim c3x. the machine is a 3 chip dlp 720p machine.

I have found so far that the image produced by the toshiba hd dvd player ( prior to the new update fw 2.0) was somewhat better than most sd dvd's. The difference was not huge. This was the case wether the hd dvd player was set to 1080i or 720p.

I suspect that this might be the case because if the sim would down scale to 540p on the way to 720p.

Does any one know if the DVDO VP 50 would make a big difference in my set up.

In the alternative, maybe the sim did a fantistic job scaling SD material.

I am really trying to decide if I should get in on the power buy.
I have the C3X also, and I have a similar experience with HD-DVD. In my case the PQ from HD-DVD is clearly superior to any SD DVD, but not as good as HDTV from my Dish 622. The PQ appears to be slightly improved with the 2.0 firmware, but still not as good as HDTV, with HD-DVD set at either 1080i or 720p. For me, although 720p is much improved with the new firmware, 1080i is still visably better.

I believe the issue is the deinterlacing going on in our C3X's. 1080i from my Dish 622 is great, but 1080i from the HD-DVD is not as good. It should be the other way around according to what others are seeing. I also believe the DVDO VP50 will fix this issue, and at this point I think I'm also going to get in on the power buy.

Is there any possibility that the VP50/VP30 could be updated to provide 2 output settings that you create via the user interface, and then use a single button to switch between them? For people who want a quick way to switch between output resolutions without having to navigate a menu.

i tired running the Toshiba HD player at 1080i and at 720p. I did not see any noticable difference.

I would say that the best from SD is as good as the worst I have seen from HD.

The differences however are not as starting etc. as most here have observed.


Now that I have 2.0 loaded I do not know how much different 1080i will be from 720p.

The Toshiba is my only HD source at the moment.

Does anyone really know how the new VP 50 will scale to 720p. Will it do it properly?

Warren

Is there any possibility that the VP50/VP30 could be updated to provide 2 output settings that you create via the user interface, and then use a single button to switch between them? For people who want a quick way to switch between output resolutions without having to navigate a menu.

This exactly what "Display Profiles" are used for. There is also a "Display Profiles" button on the remote control that allows you to recall these.

i tired running the Toshiba HD player at 1080i and at 720p. I did not see any noticable difference.

Does anyone really know how the new VP 50 will scale to 720p. Will it do it properly?


The VP50 deinterlaces 1080i to 1080p, and then scales 1080p to 720p.

I correctly entered my info and after submitting the order, got an error that my Mastercard has an expiration date problem (I had entered it correctly and my card is just fine, which I also later verified). I went back to the form, rechecked everything and then resubmitted. Then I got a duplicate transaction error message.

Not sure where I stand. Sent an e-mail to sales @dvdo.com but don't expect a response before Monday. Hope they still honor the $400 special.

Ahh the joys of online ordering . . .

Relax and enjoy your weekend. We will take care of this...

Josh,

to take advantage of the special avs offer, do I have to order through your web site or can I order direct through Jason Turk.

I have been trying to reach Jason since Thursday to discuss ordering the unit.

We have not connected thus far.

Warren

We are offering 2 options. First, straight purchase. For those who don't have any trade ins, you may preorder this piece between now, 8/23/06 and the final Sunday of Cedia, 9/17/06. The straight purchase price is $2599 including shipping during this promotion. After the ending date, the price jumps to $2999. For these orders, please feel free to contact us and get in line! Obviously no money will be charged until the product is ready to ship. NOTE: These purchases need to be ordered directly through A/V Science, Inc.


It looks like you need to contact AV Science directly.

Josh,

to take advantage of the special avs offer, do I have to order through your web site or can I order direct through Jason Turk.

I have been trying to reach Jason since Thursday to discuss ordering the unit.

We have not connected thus far.

Warren
Jason has been on the road as of Friday. If you've emailed him with your request for order I'm sure AV Science will honor the best price.

BTW, are you PM'ing him or emailing? You'll have better luck with email-- jason@avscience.com

Wow so much info maybe I over looked it, does the VP50 do 1080i to 1080p properly now? Or does it still go to 540 and scale to 1080p?

VRS Precision Deinterlacing™ technology by ABT – 480i/576i/1080i 10-bit Motion, Edge & Source Adaptive Deinterlacer
o Five-field motion adaptive deinterlacing
o Edge adaptive processing to produce smooth diagonal edges
o Three frame video processing delay (Max)
o Game Modes with very low latency (sub-1 frame delay/2 frame delay with Edge adaptive processing)
• Arbitrary cadence detection (any:any) to detect non-standard cadences in input signals.
o Reliable 2:2 pull-down detection for 50Hz countries
o Detection of 2:2 to/from 3:2 crossfades and out of phase 3:2 crossfades
o Detection of multiple source types within a frame for example video titles over film
o Bad edit detection and compensation to minimize artifacts caused by sequence breaks in film content

Relax and enjoy your weekend. We will take care of this...

Thanks, Josh! You, too. As always, appreciate the first-rate customer service and support.

All the best.

- Gerry

Is there any possibility that the VP50/VP30 could be updated to provide 2 output settings that you create via the user interface, and then use a single button to switch between them? For people who want a quick way to switch between output resolutions without having to navigate a menu.
What I would really like is output dependent on primary detected cadence - so if it has decided it's a movie (bad edits etc ignored), then it does (say) 48Hz, if it's decided it's video it outputs locked 50/60. Don't even know if that's feasible.

What I would really like is output dependent on primary detected cadence - so if it has decided it's a movie (bad edits etc ignored), then it does (say) 48Hz, if it's decided it's video it outputs locked 50/60. Don't even know if that's feasible.
AFAIK the iScans can already auto switch between 50Hz and 60Hz output. But I think a multiply-of-24 output is not yet supported for auto switching (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). It would make a lot of sense, though, IMHO. I'd really like to have this feature.

There's one complication, though: If the iScan switches back and forth between video and movie mode very often, the output refresh rate would change everytime. That could result in the display having to resync everytime. But I think that could be "solved" by switching to another refresh rate only when either video or movie mode has been active for at least 10 seconds without interruption or something like that.

: If the iScan switches back and forth between video and movie mode very often, the output refresh rate would change everytime. .
This should never happen. The video frame last constructed can be repeated (or a frame can be omitted) to maintain a constant output refresh rate if the next frame that needs to be constructed is not finished when needed for the switch from video to movie or vice versa.
.

Any one have problems ordering the VP50 upgrade via the AVS link here in the sticky?

I tried yesterday to take advantage of the $400 special before it expires today, along with trading in my VP30/ABT102.

I correctly entered my info and after submitting the order, got an error that my Mastercard has an expiration date problem (I had entered it correctly and my card is just fine, which I also later verified). I went back to the form, rechecked everything and then resubmitted. Then I got a duplicate transaction error message.

Not sure where I stand. Sent an e-mail to sales @dvdo.com but don't expect a response before Monday. Hope they still honor the $400 special.

Ahh the joys of online ordering . . .

Gerry, I tried twice to use my Discover Card yesterday to order, but couldn't get it to go through (despite my limit being way over the cost of the VP50) and finally had to use my MasterCard to order, and 10 minutes later MasterCard was on the phone calling be to say my credit card had been charged already (they were suspicious because I had also just ordered 2 DVDs from Great Britain). The DVDO website says credit cards won't be charged until the VP50 ships, so I shot off an e-mail to DVDO as well. Want to bet they'll be swamped with e-mails on Monday. But I'm not worried, as Josh says, they'll take care of it--they always have in the past.

I also ran into an error trying to use my CC. If I go back and retry, it comes up with a "duplicate order" error. ...

Did we ever get a clarificaiton publicized on de-interlacing of analog 1080i by the VP50?

According to the feature comparison chart on the website, only scaling to 1080p is done. Hope this is a typo.

This should never happen. The video frame last constructed can be repeated (or a frame can be omitted) to maintain a constant output refresh rate if the next frame that needs to be constructed is not finished when needed for the switch from video to movie or vice versa.
.
Allan, I think you misunderstood me. Today, if you switch the iScan to 60Hz output, there's no change in refresh rate if the iScan switches between video and movie mode.

BUT - look at what choddo2006 suggested. I was talking about how the iScan would behave if choddo2006's wish was implemented.

Did we ever get a clarificaiton publicized on de-interlacing of analog 1080i by the VP50?

According to the feature comparison chart on the website, only scaling to 1080p is done. Hope this is a typo.
Josh already confirmed that it's a simple typo.

Wow so much info maybe I over looked it, does the VP50 do 1080i to 1080p properly now? Or does it still go to 540 and scale to 1080p?

The VP30 never dropped down to 540p. That's a misunderstanding of its field scaling process. With the VP30, each 1920x540 interlaced field is interpolated to 1920x1080, with a vertical offset to account for the position shift between even fields and odd fields. Therefore, no resolution is lost. All of the original 1920x1080 pixels are present in their previous interlaced pattern. It's just that now each field has an additional 540 interporlated lines added to it. This is much better than scaling down to 540p and back up, but not quite as good as reverse pulldown, which fully assembles the two fields into one whole frame without interpolation.

The VP50 does proper reverse pulldown on 1080i. The difference will be noticeable on 1080p displays, but the VP30's field-scaling also does a very good job and can often fool the eye.

Gerry, I tried twice to use my Discover Card yesterday to order, but couldn't get it to go through (despite my limit being way over the cost of the VP50) and finally had to use my MasterCard to order, and 10 minutes later MasterCard was on the phone calling be to say my credit card had been charged already (they were suspicious because I had also just ordered 2 DVDs from Great Britain). The DVDO website says credit cards won't be charged until the VP50 ships, so I shot off an e-mail to DVDO as well. Want to bet they'll be swamped with e-mails on Monday. But I'm not worried, as Josh says, they'll take care of it--they always have in the past.

I got one of those messages from my CC company that it was "charged" immediately. But I seem to recall that alot of the time it's more like a "reserve" - kind of like the car rental companies sometimes do. So I called the CC and they confirmed that it was not "really" charged - yet. :)

Mike

I also ran into an error trying to use my CC. If I go back and retry, it comes up with a "duplicate order" error. ...

same here - you need to do the order, empty your cart. close out, leave, then come back and start over. After doing that, things worked fine.

as far as credit card declines, my cc company declined it cuz the purchase did not "fit my profile." if there is further trouble, call your cc company, they will probably have to unblock your account. Not DVDO's fault (except for the price. ;) - if the VP50 was 200 bucks, I'm sure you would have no problem.)

Does the VP50 do split screen for A/B comparision (left side original / right side processed)?

I glanced at the VP50 manual, and I must say on paper at least this device is VERY impressive. About the only thing that gives me any pause is the lack of 1080/24PsF output, which I need, but other than that the user interface and abilities seem superb, at least from what I can read and discern from others reports. The price point is excellent as well.

If I was certain of 1080/24PsF output support I would be VERY tempted to order one now. I'm still wondering how the deinterlacing will hold up to Realta's but from reports on the ABT102 card it seems its very competitive, better in some ways perhaps a bit worse in a few others but clearly competitive. This really seems to be a top notch video processor at a very very attractive price.

AFAIK the iScans can already auto switch between 50Hz and 60Hz output. But I think a multiply-of-24 output is not yet supported for auto switching (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). It would make a lot of sense, though, IMHO. I'd really like to have this feature.

There's one complication, though: If the iScan switches back and forth between video and movie mode very often, the output refresh rate would change everytime. That could result in the display having to resync everytime. But I think that could be "solved" by switching to another refresh rate only when either video or movie mode has been active for at least 10 seconds without interruption or something like that.

There is not a mode like this currently implemented on the iScans. I was using an Optoma H79 for a little while and I know that it would always need to re-sync when I change the frame rate between 48Hz and 60Hz. One potential issue, I can see with this being done automatically, is that you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. Although, I think this would make sense if the output frame rate was switched to a "multiple-of-24" when the user selects "Film Bias" mode for deinterlacing.

Does the VP50 do split screen for A/B comparision (left side original / right side processed)?

Nope. The sort of processing the VP50 does is not really amenable to this sort of comparison. Note that there's no image processing / noise reduction engine. Besides gamma and basic picture controls the main thing this device does is deinterlace and scale. For instance you can't send a 480i signal to one half a display and a 1080p signal to the other half.

- Collin

Josh (of DVDO),
I think there is a typo is the comparison chart. It lists the VP50 as having 2 analog pair of inputs, but a picture of the back panel shows (alas) only the one L/R pair.

escon - You are correct. This will be corrected tomorrow.

There is not a mode like this currently implemented on the iScans. I was using an Optoma H79 for a little while and I know that it would always need to re-sync when I change the frame rate between 48Hz and 60Hz. One potential issue, I can see with this being done automatically, is that you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. Although, I think this would make sense if the output frame rate was switched to a "multiple-of-24" when the user selects "Film Bias" mode for deinterlacing.
You're right, I didn't think of commercials. Good thought. Hmmmmm... Also: What output refresh rate should the iScan use if there are video mode overlays over the movie?

My pay TV channels don't have any commercials in the midst of the movie, though, and no video mode overlays, either. So for my pay TV channels having an automatic "multiple-of-24" switching mode would be nice. For HD-DVD and BluRay it might be nice, too, although I'm not sure whether there'll be much video content on HD-DVD and BluRay. So maybe setting it to forced 24fps output would work, too.

P.S: I've another idea how the 10 second delay could be solved: When the iScan detects a change between video and film mode, it could change output refresh rate at once. But in this moment the iScan could set an internal flag. As long as this flag is set, the iScan should not change output refresh rate, anymore, no matter what video/film mode detection sais. The flag should be cleared when there's 10 second straight of either film or video mode. This should get rid of unnessecary delays. Additionally, it would be nice if the iScan noticed itself if it's constantly switching between video/film mode for a longer time. In that case it should switch into 60fps output, cause in such a situation 60fps should be the better fit. <sigh> Complicated...

VP50 with UK Sky
I currently have an Iscan HD+ and I know that you can't really use the 'film' mode with sky because the mpeg 2 compression that sky uses merges frames together.

my query is: Will the VP50 handle this mpeg compression better than my HD+ ? i.e. will I see an improvement with film mode when watching a film on sky?

p.s I think it was someone from DVDO who came to the conclusion about the compression issue last year when analysising a Coronation Street (corrie) clip they were sent.

There is not a mode like this currently implemented on the iScans. I was using an Optoma H79 for a little while and I know that it would always need to re-sync when I change the frame rate between 48Hz and 60Hz. One potential issue, I can see with this being done automatically, is that you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. Although, I think this would make sense if the output frame rate was switched to a "multiple-of-24" when the user selects "Film Bias" mode for deinterlacing.
I guess that's already feasible for we 50Hz bods, as "Film Bias" and a Display Profile are both tied to an input res, and 60Hz R1 DVDs are nearly always film, while most video stuff we'd pick up is 50Hz. Probly.

VP50 with UK Sky
I currently have an Iscan HD+ and I know that you can't really use the 'film' mode with sky because the mpeg 2 compression that sky uses merges frames together.

my query is: Will the VP50 handle this mpeg compression better than my HD+ ? i.e. will I see an improvement with film mode when watching a film on sky?

p.s I think it was someone from DVDO who came to the conclusion about the compression issue last year when analysising a Coronation Street (corrie) clip they were sent.
Isn't Corrie video though? And how did they get sent the clip in native format? It's encrypted?

yes Corrie is video, but it still goes throught the same mpeg encoder, that messed up the frames.

I don't know how the source file was created, I would think it was sourced from RGBs back then

The VP30 never dropped down to 540p. That's a misunderstanding of its field scaling process. With the VP30, each 1920x540 interlaced field is interpolated to 1920x1080, with a vertical offset to account for the position shift between even fields and odd fields. Therefore, no resolution is lost. All of the original 1920x1080 pixels are present in their previous interlaced pattern. .
The real importance is the offset aka stagger. Without the offset the original scan lines always land ini the odd rows and the interpolated scan lines always land in the even rows and the resolution of 1080i source material will then never be more than 540 vertically. Without the offset, 1080i is being treated as if it were 540p.

I always thought that "the" "bob" method of "de-interlacing" included the offset. Much of the time (see below for the exception) all of the picture detail will be distinguishable although softened.

All bob methods will fail the alternating black and white scan line de-interlacing test which by definition is constructed from alternating solid black and solid white fields. Two field bob with or without offset will show a solid flickering gray while one field bob (really throwing away half the resolution) will show either solid black or solid white.
you may be watching commercials and a movie trailer kicks the iScan into "multiple-of-24" mode and then the commercial is finished and it takes 10 seconds for the iScan to switch back, and you have judder for 10 seconds plus the amount of time it may take for the display to re-sync. .
Do many (or any) displays resync. to a changed frame rate suddenly coming from the video processor without a noticeable stutter at the moment of switching?

Is judder from 60 fps video converted to 72 or 48 fps enough of a non-problem so that output frame rate from the VP50 can remain as a manual selection to be done once before the movie starts?

yes Corrie is video, but it still goes throught the same mpeg encoder, that messed up the frames.

I don't know how the source file was created, I would think it was sourced from RGBs back then
Chris5, you are talking rubbish mate. The MPEG-2 of Sky SD and MPEG-4 of Sky HD doesn't mess up frames at all. It carries video sources (50 fields per second) and film sources (25 frames per second) perfectly well, and can be deinterlaced by anything; it's worked perfectly fine for me with iScan Pro, Ultra, HD, VP30, Lumagen, etc.

StooMonster

Chris5, you are talking rubbish mate. The MPEG-2 of Sky SD and MPEG-4 of Sky HD doesn't mess up frames at all. It carries video sources (50 fields per second) and film sources (25 frames per second) perfectly well, and can be deinterlaced by anything; it's worked perfectly fine for me with iScan Pro, Ultra, HD, VP30, Lumagen, etc.r
Sourcing from RGsB, RGBS, etc. won't hurt. What counts is whether noise in any analog portion of the processing or the MPEG encoding and decoding causes paired fields and also the first and third fields in 3-2 pulldown threesomes to not have enough sameness which in turns causes the processor to go to video mode.

VP50 with UK Sky
I currently have an Iscan HD+ and I know that you can't really use the 'film' mode with sky because the mpeg 2 compression that sky uses merges frames together.
Reading your original post here, the reason you can't use FILM mode on Sky is because the broadcast channels are a mix of VIDEO and FILM. e.g. movies are FILM, studio based programmes and sport are VIDEO, American dramas are FILM, channel idents are FILM as are most adverts, or FILM with VIDEO overlayed.

This is why iScans have 'AUTO' mode, this uses cadence detection to switch the iScan from processing FILM or VIDEO which require different techniques to deinterlace.

StooMonster

Sourcing from RGsB, RGBS, etc. won't hurt. What counts is whether noise in any analog portion of the processing or the MPEG encoding and decoding causes paired fields and also the first and third fields in 3-2 pulldown threesomes to not have enough sameness which in turns causes the processor to go to video mode.
There is no 3:2 pulldown and pairing of first and third fields in UK, it's 50Hz and 2:2 pulldown.

StooMonster

I had problems getting my order in over the weekend for the $400 avs special, but I called today and over the phone got the order taken care of. Even a somewhat vague hint that "a lot of interest" has been expressed from both consumer/pro camps for the hd/sdi. Kewl.

Now just wait, watch with the vp30, and then play with the 50 when it comes. Must say very impressed with ABT/DVDO.

You're right, I didn't think of commercials. Good thought. Hmmmmm...
In UK almost all commercials are 25 frames per second FILM sourced, or at least video that has had 'film effect' filter applied in post-production. :) So works okay for us! :D

StooMonster

Stoo
Ignoring your dismissive comment, I remember Dale saying it was something to do with the material in the foreground changing/moving (as it should) but due to mpeg compression the background did not change, fooling the the HD+ to do a 2:2 pulldown when it should not. something like that anyway.

I've searched for the original link, but can't find it, presumably it was so long ago

Stoo
Ignoring your dismissive comment, I remember Dale saying it was something to do with the material in the foreground changing/moving (as it should) but due to mpeg compression the background did not change, fooling the the HD+ to do a 2:2 pulldown when it should not. something like that anyway.

I've searched for the original link, but can't find it, presumably it was so long ago
To be fair, you'd expect little else from ITV ;)

anyway....
going back to my original query. will film mode on the VP50 be any more usable when watching a film on sky than the HD+, or not?

Wasn't supposed to be flippant mate, I find film on Sky looks absolutely great on the vp30 if that's any help.

Since the abt102 (and presumably the equivalent on the vp50) can mix modes in a single frame, I can't see the situation you described causing problems.

I just don't think using video Corrie capped however it's capped to be a useful point of reference.

uzun,

24fps output is not that great. If there's any cadence loss you get judder. I seem to remember seeing a 24fps genlock option on a VP50 demo. I might be wrong.

Stoo,

I've seen some really strange behavior on encoders. Encoders that don't pay attention to cadence can definitely cause interlacing issues where part of the image is one cadence whereas the other is another cadence. I'm not sure if that is what you were talking about, but it's an issue that has gotten worse as encoders got smarter. Soccer matches are where you see this behavior - different areas of the grass are changing cadence, not because they were filmed that way but because the encoder is wreaking havoc.

24fps works quite well on the Lumagen, its true you get a momentary cadence loss every once in a while, but most HDTV movies and almost all newer DVD's have no such loss. If the material is problematic I switch back to 60hz.

But for the most part, using 1080/24PsF on the Lumagen to my Qualia 004, I dont get any loss of cadence during the film. When it does occur it generally corrects quickly, within one second.

I can't speak for the DVDO product but I suspect it operates in a similar manner in 24hz mode. If the source stream is clean its great, but even when it loses cadence it probably gets it back pretty quick.

Any one have problems ordering the VP50 upgrade via the AVS link here in the sticky?

I tried yesterday to take advantage of the $400 special before it expires today, along with trading in my VP30/ABT102.

I correctly entered my info and after submitting the order, got an error that my Mastercard has an expiration date problem (I had entered it correctly and my card is just fine, which I also later verified). I went back to the form, rechecked everything and then resubmitted. Then I got a duplicate transaction error message.

Not sure where I stand. Sent an e-mail to sales @dvdo.com but don't expect a response before Monday. Hope they still honor the $400 special.

Ahh the joys of online ordering . . .

Update--turns out my credit card company denied the charge during the online processing of my upgrade order for the VP50. I called them (the credit card company) about something else today and up popped a message about a denied charge, which I told them to let go through. They said DVDO should just re-submit or I should re-order.

I contacted DVDO with a follow-up e-mail explaining what had happened and if they should re-submit or I should re-order.

Got a quick note back from DVDO saying they'll re-submit manually so I could get the $400 discount, which had expired last night.

As usual, great service from DVDO for their customers. THANKS!

- Gerry

dvdo is a class act.

I had problems ordering online last night too with the cc thing.

dvdo took care of me today. vp50 ordered via phone.

way to go dvdo!

thanks to dvdo and Jason for working out the discount too.

"Update--turns out my credit card company denied the charge during the online processing of my upgrade order for the VP50. I called them (the credit card company) about something else today and up popped a message about a denied charge, which I told them to let go through. They said DVDO should just re-submit or I should re-order."


As info Chase Bank denied my credit card transaction on Thursday the 24th. They stopped all transactions on my card at that time. I found out about it when I went to dinner Sunday night and my card was rejected. I had to leave the restaurant and go to an ATM to get money. When I called Chase today they said they telephoned me on the 24th. I did not get a call. This is also why on Friday April at Anchorbaytech said she didn't have my order. It is also why I could not do an order on Saturday the 26th. I cancelled my card of 8 years today.

Hai,

Amazing how many problems with cc cards, The way this is handled is not that speciial
is it ? I can't see how dvdo created a stress test for them :) weird.

Daniel.

my transaction went through fine. but the cc company did call me to verify that I did actually make the purchase online.

That's a good company then. ;)

It's actually the security features I get from the level of cc I have with the company. In fact, if I claim that a purchase wasn't mine regardless of amount, they will recredit my cc instantly, then investigate. But this is way off topic....

So any idea when a realistic time frame may be of when we will be getting our hands on the VP50?

Last word from Josh on availability was mid to end of September. Unless that has changed since the weekend. Anyone?

It will be when it is and there is no point in discussing it. Some here, however, have rescheduled vacation plans and other plans based on a mid to late September delivery date. Personally, I would not plan on traveling away from your HT from September 20th til about Nov 15 th. Then you can be assured of not having anything interfer with your taking a quick view and getting your "I am in love with it" impressions up on this forum. :)

Great! I agree. I will stay in my cave (theater) until Thanksgiving time. :D

Is there a upgrade path from a VP 30 to a VP50 planned ? I mean a hardware upgrade, like changing a board ...

Serge.

I think abolutely not. Everything is new. As you know there is an xtremely generous trade in.

The SDI module will be a swap from the VP30 to the VP50, not quite what synerg was asking I suppose, but should be noted nevertheless.

"Update--turns out my credit card company denied the charge during the online processing of my upgrade order for the VP50. I called them (the credit card company) about something else today and up popped a message about a denied charge, which I told them to let go through. They said DVDO should just re-submit or I should re-order."


As info Chase Bank denied my credit card transaction on Thursday the 24th. They stopped all transactions on my card at that time. I found out about it when I went to dinner Sunday night and my card was rejected. I had to leave the restaurant and go to an ATM to get money. When I called Chase today they said they telephoned me on the 24th. I did not get a call. This is also why on Friday April at Anchorbaytech said she didn't have my order. It is also why I could not do an order on Saturday the 26th. I cancelled my card of 8 years today.

Chase did the same thing to me. No call. I happened to notice the card was not available on my accounts on the Chase website a couple of days later. There was a footnote to call Chase. If I hadn't seen the note my account would still be locked out although I'm still not able to see the account online.

Chase did the same thing to me. No call. I happened to notice the card was not available on my accounts on the Chase website a couple of days later. There was a footnote to call Chase. If I hadn't seen the note my account would still be locked out although I'm still not able to see the account online.

Chase does it to everybody.

That is why I cut my Chase card into many pieces 6 months ago.

Seems kind of over the top since DVCO was not charging your CC but just getting an approval.

Seems kind of over the top since DVCO was not charging your CC but just getting an approval.

well, as was explained to me, since purchase was "outside my normal profile," they put the block on the account. Once I got over being p@@@@d at them, I took a deep breath and decided it wasn't altogether bad. Course, had I not called them as soon as I had trouble ordering online, and instead been embarrassed at a fancy restaurant, that would be something else. As long as they remember to do that when someone does steal my card, I can live with it. :)

and of course, once it was straightened out, my order with DVDO went thru smooth as silk. :D 4-6 weeks delivery. From last Thursday. Gives me plenty of time to tweak my setup in preparation.

:( Any one have problems ordering the VP50 upgrade via the AVS link here in the sticky?

I tried yesterday to take advantage of the $400 special before it expires today, along with trading in my VP30/ABT102.

I correctly entered my info and after submitting the order, got an error that my Mastercard has an expiration date problem (I had entered it correctly and my card is just fine, which I also later verified). I went back to the form, rechecked everything and then resubmitted. Then I got a duplicate transaction error message.

Not sure where I stand. Sent an e-mail to sales @dvdo.com but don't expect a response before Monday. Hope they still honor the $400 special.

Ahh the joys of online ordering . . .


I had a similiar experience on Friday...hope it went thru... :(

seems like Chase is losing customers all over the place. Good time to sell Chase Manhatten stock shares, methinks...

Re the VP50. I think this is a realistic schedule.

Josh PMed me to say that I would be taken care of...
Classy customer relations... :)

Chase does it to everybody.

That is why I cut my Chase card into many pieces 6 months ago.

Yeah, my denial was by Chase, too. It's an epidemic . . . :eek:

- Gerry

I closed my Chase card over 10 Years ago, AMEX all the way.

seems like Chase is losing customers all over the place. Good time to sell Chase Manhatten stock shares, methinks...

Re the VP50. I think this is a realistic schedule.

I allready send a message to the wall street journal, 'vp50 wannehaves upset over Chase' So they can turn it into a strong sell :).

Daniel.

Is there a upgrade path from a VP 30 to a VP50 planned ? I mean a hardware upgrade, like changing a board ...


Josh, any comments ?

Serge.

Josh, any comments ?

Serge.Serge, I think you have the answer already. As we know, the VP50 is essentially housed in exactly the same casing as the VP30. The only difference mechanically is the addition of a temperature controlled fan. So, the upgrade pricing is essentially covering a changeover of the innards or the two PCBs that are inside the VP30/50. Instead of the end user doing the swapping over, DVDO are doing it. Not that it's much of a job - it takes all of about 1/2 hr to complete even for the first time - I've done it on an HD+.

The only difference now though, is that a hole and fan have to be added which makes the job no longer a simple swap over of PCBs. It's also possible that the ventilation holes have changed in size and location now that a fan has been added, thus making a simple PCB swap over using the VP30 casing no longer possible.

Where is this extra hole and fan? It's definitely not on the back and top. From the pictures if there is an extra vent it would have to be on the sides or bottom since the back, front and top look the same as the vp30 in the pictures.

Is there a upgrade path from a VP 30 to a VP50 planned ? I mean a hardware upgrade, like changing a board ...

We have no plans for a board-level upgrade from VP30 to VP50.

Where is this extra hole and fan?

There are no extra holes in the chassis of the VP50 (relative to the VP30). The fan is mounted directly on top of the heatsink which is on top of one of the FPGAs. This fan maxes out at 14dB. It never gets to full power and it only comes on when it is needed. Fan noise is not an issue.

There are no extra holes in the chassis of the VP50 (relative to the VP30). The fan is mounted directly on top of the heatsink which is on top of one of the FPGAs. This fan maxes out at 14dB. It never gets to full power and it only comes on when it is needed. Fan noise is not an issue.

That's excellent news.
_____
Axel

Fan noise is not an issue.

of course, what Josh has failed to mention, is that when the fan does activate, then a siren sounds, iron bars drop down the windows, and armed guards appear and surround your VP50. ;) :cool:

was it William that was asking me about audio delay and HD-DVD analog 6 channel output when using the VP50?

well I have some good news on my side, I have always preclaimed how high-end and sweet the analog 8 ch input was on my Sherwood P-965 pre-amp, it applys full bass management, distance delay and db adjustments to that input along with any other adjustments in the setup, well anyway, today I discovered that it also has a lip sync delay setting :) oh joy!!, I can now correct the audio delay from the VP50 deinterlacing the 1080i

I listened to Training Day in 5.1 TrueHD last night and I messed my shorts it was so good :eek:

what audio setup do you use William?

-Gary

Josh,
Not wishing to labor the point,that it is very important to us in the uk to have support for editable edid info in order to use hdmi with sat (bbc itv and sky) with 576i in order to bennifit from the vp50.

Hi Gang,

Much noise is being made about the overscanning performed by the new 1080p LCDs from Samsung and Sony, especially from the HTPC crowd who demand 1:1 mapping.

People are saying that even Blu-Ray and HD DVD at 1080p are going through a scaler, and it's a high crime.

Is that all correct?

Does the VP50 change this? .... generating the 1:1 mapping, and bypass the overscanning?

Thanks, Le n00b. :)

Le yes you should be able to work that out dude, not 100% positive as I don't know the specifics of the TV's but yes you should be able to work that out with all the goodies on the scaler :)

-Gary

Thank Gary.

no problem

-Gary

Josh,
Not wishing to labour the point,that it is very important to us in the uk to have support for editable edid info in order to use hdmi with sat (bbc itv and sky) with 576i in order to bennifit from the vp50.
This is a point that should be laboured, or indeed labored, though.

Please please please have this feature available on release.

Much noise is being made about the overscanning performed by the new 1080p LCDs from Samsung and Sony, especially from the HTPC crowd who demand 1:1 mapping.

I've noticed this confusion of overscan and 1:1 pixel mapping lately. They are two different but related concepts. Overscan is quite simply the cropping of the edges of the image. Traditional SD broadcasts rely on overscan so it is intentionally designed into a set. The confusion lies in the fact that for some completely inexplicable reason Sony and Samsung find it desirable to create even more overscan than is inherent in the physical design of their sets. They do this by scaling the signal. Depending on the set there may or may not be an option in the service menu to disable this extra scaling. The option is often called Overscan on/off though it really means "needless scaling on/off". Depending on your set this option may or may not need to be tweaked every time you turn your set on. When the "extra overscan" is disabled you will still have overscan, but no scaling. This is a lesser crime than needlessly scaling sources that could otherwise be pixel mapped. There's nothing an external device can do to get back the slight PQ loss by this extra step. The best an external scalar can do is apply a bit of scaling in the opposite direction to get you a bit more of your visible image area back.

People are saying that even Blu-Ray and HD DVD at 1080p are going through a scaler, and it's a high crime.

This silly scaling going on in these sets is a high crime. To nitpick there are no 1080p DVD players currently. They're all 1080i or worse. That Samsung atrocity is actually a 1080i decoder with a crappy, misconfigured 1080p deinterlacer bolted on inside the box. It's actually worse than not supporting 1080p at all.

Does the VP50 change this? .... generating the 1:1 mapping, and bypass the overscanning?

Not really. In fact it's probably even more important for a scalar. A scalar can help in cases where the set can do 1:1 pixel mapping but only at strange resolutions (many Plasmas are not exactly 1080p for instance). It can help get more of the image back if too much is cropped. It can do a whole slew of picture tweaking and source conversion things. But 1:1 pixel mapping is something that only a set can allow or not.

- Collin

Interesting post collinp - I didn't know that about the Samsung BD player - so the source disks are only 1080i for now and it deinterlaces them internally? Presumably you can turn that off? Is this why so many reviews are slating the image quality of the early releases? Are they all running 1080p out of the box? I know they're still on mpeg2 but at high enough bitrates, I can't believe that's the sole cause.

I assume 1080p disks will be availalbe at some point?

I've always found it quite hard to locate a definitive answer on what's stored on a SD DVD, oddly, although I'm certain it's 480i/576i.

yes none of the current players will output 1080p and it doesn't really matter, use the HDMI output of the BR/HD players into a good scaler like this VP50 and you have a 1080p image that will be identical to the original 1080p image stored on the disc which we can't get from the player

this whole 1080p output thing is dumb, the % of people that need it is so so very small that it's no wonder the players don't do it either at all(Toshiba) or incorrectly(Samsung)

-Gary

Oh. So the stream off the disk is full frame, but the Samsung interlaces it ... and then deinterlaces it badly??

Oh. So the stream off the disk is full frame, but the Samsung interlaces it ... and then deinterlaces it badly??

Bingo. 1080p on disk to a decoder which can only output 1080i to a Genesis deinterlacer which is misconfigured to 1080p HDMI out. They bolted the deinterlacer on at the last minute so they could claim they had a 1080p output therefore be perceived as "better" than the Toshiba.

How many missteps can we have in this transition to an HD disc?

Gary is right, 1080i to a VP50 is going to be the way to go for a while. In the long run it's still going to be better to not have to have an external box hunt for cadence since the stream is progressive on disc.

- Collin

I've always found it quite hard to locate a definitive answer on what's stored on a SD DVD, oddly, although I'm certain it's 480i/576i.

Definitely 480i/576i YUV 4:2:0 MPEG2.

- Collin

speaking of BR, I think the upcoming Panasonic BR player is the one to get, I am partial to Panny though ;)

-Gary

Ignoring your dismissive comment, I remember Dale saying it was something to do with the material in the foreground changing/moving (as it should) but due to mpeg compression the background did not change, fooling the the HD+ to do a 2:2 pulldown when it should not. something like that anyway.
Sorry to be so dismissive, but it's not Sky messing up the fields. The SiI504 in iScan Pro/Ultra/HD/HD+/VP30/VP20 isn't perfect, and it occationally gets the cadence detection wrong and produces false positives on 2:2 pulldown and combs (can produce a strange slow down effect).

My point was, (and where I said you were talking rubbish) is this is not caused by Sky which is what your posts were suggesting. This problem was caused by SiI504!

The ABT102 and presumably it's big brother HD-DL have much better cadence detection for 50Hz sources and rarely have the artefact problems that SiI504 had.

StooMonster

Josh,

Is there any difference in lipsync delay between VP30 and VP50?

What are typical video delays added by VP50 for 1080i60 and 1080i50 (and their SDTV equivalents, if there's a difference there)?

Ofer the VP50 has a smidge over 3 frames delay, I think that is the same for SD and HD as long as deinterlacing is involved and not 1080i in and 1080 out or etc.

would 3 frames be correct for 480i/576i/1080i inputs Josh ?

-Gary

We have no plans for a board-level upgrade from VP30 to VP50.

Thanks Josh.
A friend with a VP30 tells me that someone, here, was claiming he was going to the US to see this board...
I wasn't believing that ;)

Serge.

I have always preclaimed how high-end and sweet the analog 8 ch input was on my Sherwood P-965 pre-amp ...... today I discovered that it also has a lip sync delay setting

Gary - how does your pre/pro do this? do you enter a specific value to be delayed? at what range does it offer delays? 0-0.5sec for example... and at what increments? reason I ask is someone is custom building my pre/pro and I want this feature to be included

the Sherwood Newcastle P-965 has a lip sync delay adjustment in the menu, it goes from 0 frames to 6 frames in 1 frame increments, your pre-amp must be able to digitize the incoming 8 ch input to apply full distance adjustment delays, db levels and bass management along with the lip sync delay

the sound from HD-DVD is the best to ever hit the HT world ;) and to be able to sync that up with the VP50's processing will be invaluable :)

-Gary

This is a point that should be laboured, or indeed labored, though.

Please please please have this feature available on release.Hands Up!

Second that motion!

That would make a really big difference in Europe, and help with a lot of DVD players as well.

Nick

Quickie on 1080p versus 1080i hidef DVD's:
The disks are all one of 1080i@30 or 1080p@24 or 1080p@30. The 1080p@24 may or may not be stored in a manner similar to psf24. All players possess 1080i outputs and it is a no-brainer to re-interlace the 1080p@24 and 1080p@30 and impart 3-2 pulldown to what was the 1080p@24.

When the player has a 1080p (not psf24) output or a 720p output it is a no-brainer to convert 1080p@24 or 1080p@30 to 1080p@60 or 720p@60. But the built in de-interlacer for the 1080i@30 material probably is far inferior to the VP50.

From what I gather, 1080p@60 disks will not be available in the foreseeable future.

Like 1080i broadcasts, 1080i material from hidef DVD's run through a VP50 can look very close to 1080p@60 had the latter been available.

Regular (SD) DVD's may also be either 480i@30/576i@25 or 480p/576p@24/25/30 but all current DVD players initially deliver interlaced output from the MPEG decoder. This goes directly to the player output or is to be de-interlaced in the player.

I would not be surprised if there are some hi-def DVD players that decode everything as interlaced and have a "bolted on de-interlacer inside" that may or may not do a good job of creating or recreating 1080p. We're back to an age old discussion from the early SD DVD era, are there flags that tell which fields of originally 1080p (@24/30) material should be woven together, or must the de-interlacer take hints from the video pixels.

/me doffs cap.

Thanks for the clarification.

Question on audio, brought up by WelwynNick actually.

I thought I read somewhere (but can't find it) that the vp50 could now output compatible digital audio over optical, that had come in over HDMI w/HDCP ?

Looking for where I read this, the FAQ on dvdo.com question6 (http://www.dvdo.com/faq/faq_isvp50.php#faq6) states;
"The HDMI inputs will also accept audio, given that the video signal is on the same input. If the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP, then the iScan VP50 can not output this audio using the optical or coaxial digital outputs, only the HDMI output."

Am I going mad?

edit No, I knew I'd read it, it's in Josh's first posting in this very thread.


Q: If I connect an HDMI (audio/video) source to the iScan VP50 will I be able to get audio out via the optical/coaxial digital outputs?
A: In most cases the audio that is available on the HDMI connection will be available on the optical/coaxial audio outputs. Exceptions include MLP (DVD-Audio) and DSD (SACD) which SPDIF connections are incapable of carrying due to bandwidth limitations.


So the website must be wrong? Or Josh's post is only applicable where HDCP is off?

Interesting post collinp - I didn't know that about the Samsung BD player - so the source disks are only 1080i for now and it deinterlaces them internally?

The Blu-ray discs themselves are encoded as 1080p, but the Broadcom decoder in the player is limited to 1080i output. From there it goes to a Faroudja deinterlacer chip to convert back to 1080p.

The Faroudja chip itself isn't "crappy" as collinp calls it. In fact, there isn't actually a problem with the deinterlacing. The problem is that Samsung has turned the chip's Noise Reduction filtering feature to "High" and there's no way to manually adjust it or turn it off. As a result, the discs look softer and less detailed than they could.

On the other side of this coin, the Blu-ray software so far has been noisy as hell due to their serious MPEG2 compression issues. I think turning off the Noise Reduction would make most of them look even worse than they currently do.

the Broadcom decoder in the player is limited to 1080i output.
That's not true. The Broadcom decoder can output 1080p24, as was confirmed by a Broadcom guy in the "Industry Insiders" thread. The Samsung just doesn't ask it to.

That's not true. The Broadcom decoder can output 1080p24, as was confirmed by a Broadcom guy in the "Industry Insiders" thread. The Samsung just doesn't ask it to.

Unfortunately, neither does the Toshiba :(

- Rich

Depending on the set there may or may not be an option in the service menu to disable this extra scaling. The option is often called Overscan on/off though it really means "needless scaling on/off". - Collin

Gack.

I got through to level 2 support at Samsung, and there's no way to turn off Overscan on their new line of 1080p sets.

You can turn off the DNIE processing, and the DNR processing, but not overscan.

*me kicks soup can*

Unfortunately, neither does the Toshiba :(
True, sadly.

Gack.

I got through to level 2 support at Samsung, and there's no way to turn off Overscan on their new line of 1080p sets.

You can turn off the DNIE processing, and the DNR processing, but not overscan.

*me kicks soup can*

They're not going to tell you because if it exists its in the service menu. These forums are a better bet for information. Check over in the RPTV forum. Most of the Samsung sets have had a way to disable the extra digital overscan. Unfortunately most of the recent Samsung sets will not remember the setting across power cycles, so perhaps what they said is true "from a certain point of view" Also if you've got a Samsung DLP absolutely get it calibrated. They can look phenomenal once tuned by someone who knows what they're doing. This might more than make up for the slight PQ loss from extra scaling.

- Collin

The Faroudja chip itself isn't "crappy" as collinp calls it.

Okay "crappy" is a bit harsh. I'm just bitter about this train wreck of a transition to a next generation DVD. The underlying silicon isn't that bad and Samsung claims they can make things better in a firmware upgrade, but the current progressive image is pretty bad.

- Collin

They're not going to tell you because if it exists its in the service menu. These forums are a better bet for information. Check over in the RPTV forum. Most of the Samsung sets have had a way to disable the extra digital overscan. Unfortunately most of the recent Samsung sets will not remember the setting across power cycles, so perhaps what they said is true "from a certain point of view" Also if you've got a Samsung DLP absolutely get it calibrated. They can look phenomenal once tuned by someone who knows what they're doing. This might more than make up for the slight PQ loss from extra scaling.

- Collin

I look for the RPTV forum.

I have a Samsung 1080p LCD. I live in NYC. How would i go about finding a professional calibrator? Thanks.

They're not going to tell you because if it exists its in the service menu.
- Collin

Got you.

I'm not steeped enough to deal with the service menu, but i'd sure like to know how to kill overscan when watching HD.

I look for the RPTV forum.

I have a Samsung 1080p LCD. I live in NYC. How would i go about finding a professional calibrator? Thanks.

www.imagingscience.com

www.imagingscience.com

Thanks, I'm learning.

I'm going to get my feet wet and buy SpyderTV. :)

Now if only someone could tell me how to turn off overscan in the service menu for the Samsung 4095D. :D

The Faroudja chip itself isn't "crappy" as collinp calls it. In fact, there isn't actually a problem with the deinterlacing. The problem is that Samsung has turned the chip's Noise Reduction filtering feature to "High" and there's no way to manually adjust it or turn it off. As a result, the discs look softer and less detailed than they could.

Unfortunately, turning off the DNR doesn't solve the softness problem. I would guess many people will not even see the difference.

I was looking to get the new VP50 until I ran accross this on their website FAQ

"17. Will the iScan VP50 improve the picture quality of standard definition channels from my satellite system (DSS)?


Picture improvement of standard definition satellite channels is often very subjective, and depends to a great deal on exactly which aspects of the image are objectionable.

If you have a standard definition satellite feed which is loaded with compression artifacts or is blurry because of bandwidth limitations, then the iScan VP50 (or most other video processors, for that matter) may not bring much improvement to the picture."

Can anyone confirm this is the case?

that is the case, garbage in garbage out is a old saying and is very very true

you can't shine turds is another ;)

-Gary

That's not true. The Broadcom decoder can output 1080p24, as was confirmed by a Broadcom guy in the "Industry Insiders" thread. The Samsung just doesn't ask it to.

If that's true, why would Samsung go to the extra trouble and expense of adding a separate Faroudja deinterlacer when it could have just output 1080p directly from the decoder? Everything I'd previously heard indicated that the Broadcom chip didn't have the bandwidth to output 1080p, and thus the current Toshiba HD DVD players cannot be firmware upgraded for 1080p.

Okay "crappy" is a bit harsh. I'm just bitter about this train wreck of a transition to a next generation DVD. The underlying silicon isn't that bad and Samsung claims they can make things better in a firmware upgrade, but the current progressive image is pretty bad.

The Samsung player has its problems, to be sure, but most of Blu-ray's troubles are in the software. It has nothing to do with 1080i deinterlacing. You'll never get a disc as bad as RoboCop to look decent no matter the player. Garbage in, garbage out.

So when HD DVD players come out with native output of 1080P24, how well will the VP50 interlace it to 1080i for people who have 1080P sets that only accept 1080i over HDMI like me?

I was looking to get the new VP50 until I ran accross this on their website FAQ

"17. Will the iScan VP50 improve the picture quality of standard definition channels from my satellite system (DSS)?


Picture improvement of standard definition satellite channels is often very subjective, and depends to a great deal on exactly which aspects of the image are objectionable.

If you have a standard definition satellite feed which is loaded with compression artifacts or is blurry because of bandwidth limitations, then the iScan VP50 (or most other video processors, for that matter) may not bring much improvement to the picture."

Can anyone confirm this is the case?
It doesn't make crap signals better, what it does a very good job of is stopping your wrong res, progressive TV make them even worse. It also does other stuff, but that's the main benefit. DVDs for example, look awesome. good quality digital TV looks great, poor quality digital TV looks watchable.

So when HD DVD players come out with native output of 1080P24, how well will the VP50 interlace it to 1080i for people who have 1080P sets that only accept 1080i over HDMI like me?
Why wouldn't you just get the player to carry on outputting 1080i, they can do a good job of that, it's easy.

If that's true, why would Samsung go to the extra trouble and expense of adding a separate Faroudja deinterlacer when it could have just output 1080p directly from the decoder?
That's a question you should ask Samsung.

Everything I'd previously heard indicated that the Broadcom chip didn't have the bandwidth to output 1080p
That doesn't make any sense, since 1080p24 needs less bandwidth than 1080i60!

Note that I said that the Broadcom can output 1080p24. I wasn't speaking of 1080p60.

"17. Will the iScan VP50 improve the picture quality of standard definition channels from my satellite system (DSS)?


Picture improvement of standard definition satellite channels is often very subjective, and depends to a great deal on exactly which aspects of the image are objectionable.

If you have a standard definition satellite feed which is loaded with compression artifacts or is blurry because of bandwidth limitations, then the iScan VP50 (or most other video processors, for that matter) may not bring much improvement to the picture."



Yes it is the case. But you need to read it more carefully - they are trying to prevent unwarranted expectations. Using the VP30 with the ABT102 card, I can take a GOOD sd signal and make it look as good as a poorly mastered dvd. But otoh, as DVDO states, if the incoming signal is NOT good, the DVDO doesn't help much - I can get a smoother, soft picture, but it is by no stretch great looking.

def. Good signal - full bandwidth HBO and ESPN.
Not good signal - anything on WB or UPN in my area. Comcast sports, local Fox network sports.

Yes it is the case. But you need to read it more carefully - they are trying to prevent unwarranted expectations. Using the VP30 with the ABT102 card, I can take a GOOD sd signal and make it look as good as a poorly mastered dvd. But otoh, as DVDO states, if the incoming signal is NOT good, the DVDO doesn't help much - I can get a smoother, soft picture, but it is by no stretch great looking.

def. Good signal - full bandwidth HBO and ESPN.
Not good signal - anything on WB or UPN in my area. Comcast sports, local Fox network sports.

Anybody using it on the Directv H20 receiver? What are the results?

Directv and Dish are unrecoverable, trying to get good pix from those sources is a nightmare, they are destroyed in every sense of the word

that these providers are so praised should indicate to everyone who believes people care about picture quality, that they are wrong in thinking that people do

-Gary

I'm hoping someone can help me understand the audio limitation in using HDMI.

As I understand it, in order to get the best video quality I should try to use HDMI (versus YPbPr) from my DVD -> V50 -> Plasma monitor.

The problem I'm having trouble with is that when HDCP is active, the only sound that will come out of the VP50 (as I understand it) will be through the single HDMI output which is going directly to my plasma monitor.

What do I do to get the digital audio to my surround processor? If I route a separate digital connection directly from the DVD to the surround processor, the VP50's automatic lip-sync delay functionality cannot be used. Is that the only solution?

Thanks in advance,
Tom

If I understand correctly, the sound coming into an iScan through HDMI with HDCP cannot be split off, but that doesn't prevent you from ignoring the HDMI audio and just using S/PDIF instead, assuming your source will simultaneously output audio over both connectors. Just run both to your iScan, use the HDMI for video, and use the S/PDIF audio.

I'm hoping someone can help me understand the audio limitation in using HDMI.

As I understand it, in order to get the best video quality I should try to use HDMI (versus YPbPr) from my DVD -> V50 -> Plasma monitor.

The problem I'm having trouble with is that when HDCP is active, the only sound that will come out of the VP50 (as I understand it) will be through the single HDMI output which is going directly to my plasma monitor.

What do I do to get the digital audio to my surround processor? If I route a separate digital connection directly from the DVD to the surround processor, the VP50's automatic lip-sync delay functionality cannot be used. Is that the only solution?

Thanks in advance,
Tom


that's not quite correct ... if you use HDMI from your DVD player to the VP50, you will be able to get the sound from the VP50 to your amp via coax or SPDIF ... HDCP or not ... not a problem here.

ie: I'm using my Oppo 970 via HDMI (HDCP ON) to the VP30, and sending the audio via coax from the VP30 to my amp .... no worries

the only exceptions is if you are playing a SACD or DVD AUDIO on your DVD player - because of bandwidth limitations of coax/spdif they can't carry the sound, in this instance, you would have to use the 6 analogue cables out to your amp or HDMI to amp first, vp50 afterwards .... if you have a denon DVD/AMP with Denon Link, you can use that instead to carry the sound with a single cable between the DVD and Amp

Directv and Dish are unrecoverable, trying to get good pix from those sources is a nightmare, they are destroyed in every sense of the word


In my experience, a good video processor can make an appreciable and useful difference with DirecTV. Does it look "good" afterwards? No, not really. But, it looks less "bad". :)

The video processor still gets rid of deinterlacing problems and can smooth jaggies.

/jab

Unfortunately, neither does the Toshiba :(

- Rich

Oh, but the HD-SDI modded Toshiba with a firmware patch will (fingers crossed)

Totally agree. BUT jaggies are a deinterlacing artifact. No deinterlacing, no jaggies. :)

The bigger the picture, the more important becomes reducing deinterlacing artifacts.

There is a hugh constituency of HT sports nuts.

I am included.

DTV video. 480i and 1080i. You can't make it approach HD film or even 480i film, but you can indeed make it a lot better.

If you can only eat tofu, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make it taste better.

If you can only eat tofu, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to make it taste better.

:D :D :D :D

that's not quite correct ... if you use HDMI from your DVD player to the VP50, you will be able to get the sound from the VP50 to your amp via coax or SPDIF ... HDCP or not ... not a problem here.
I think the confusion stemmed from two statements in the VP50 FAQ on the DVDO site that seem to conflict with each other:
From Question #6
The HDMI inputs will also accept audio, given that the video signal is on the same input. If the incoming HDMI signal has HDCP, then the iScan VP50 can not output this audio using the optical or coaxial digital outputs, only the HDMI output.
and from Question #7
Most sources that have an HDMI output also carry HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection). If this is the case, the analog outputs on the iScan VP50 must be turned off. This is a legal constraint.

:confused:

Isn't it a constraint imposed as a licensing restriction? Hardly a legal constraint.

I sent an email to Josh today regarding hdmi and the optical and coax audio outputs in the context of the vp50 and my Bryston sp2.

Here is his response


"Hello Warren,



Dolby TrueHD and Dolby Digital + streams can not be transported over coaxial or optical digital audio (S/PDIF) connections. This signal can only be carried over HDMI or, if decoded by the player, 6 analog audio connections. The Bryston SP1, SP1.7, and SP2 all have 6 channel analog connections. The problem with this is that the iScan will not be able to add the audio delay to the signal so that the processed video and audio are perfectly in sync. A standard digital connection will allow you to this feature."

I believe that his response certainly supports hdmi to the vp50, lip sinc process etc, then standard digital connections to the audio system.

In my experience, a good video processor can make an appreciable and useful difference with DirecTV. Does it look "good" afterwards? No, not really. But, it looks less "bad". :)


I agree, the VP30 can make DirecTV/Dish's SD channels look "less bad" than they are already, but, I would certainly not purchase the VP30/50 with that as the primary reason. As noted, you can only do some much with garbage and it should not be seen as a failing of the VP30/50. Because the VP30/50 is capable of doing what it does with that material, I have it do it, but it was probably the last thing on mind when I purchased the unit.

I hardly ever watch anything other than over the air or DTV SD and HD video. I would and have purchased a high quality motion adaptive deinterlacer/scaler and high quality mpeq and other video noise reducer for no other reason. I just purchased a VP50 for that reason and will use it with my Algolith Mosquito.

For 480i film, my older Sil504 based processor does fine. I wouldn't buy a new processo if 480i film (DVD) was what I primarily watched. 1080i film different story, old processor won't handle that.

I'll be getting a Radiance later too. BUT, the NFL season is looming. Of course, the season will arrive before my VP50.

the VP50 would improve various things with the picture, a couple being the CUE filter and Y/C delay, every darn Dish/Directv receiver I have seen has horrid CUE bug and a even worse y/c delay

the y/c delay needs to be -23 to correct one of my Dish SD PVR's :(

things can improve slightly but in regard to it looking better in a sense of perceived resolution, detail and etc. it ain't gonna happen, SD from Dish/Directv has been totally run under a bus before it gets to us:

horrid and I mean horrid posterization, combing artifacts, mpeg artifacts, cue bugs, y/c delays, reduced video resolution and even further reduced chroma resolution to save bandwidth= totally trash

the VP30/50 can correct some of this of course but the image ain't gonna look like upscaled SDI DVD or even in the same league, it has been long ruined before the VP30/50 even gets a crack at it

-Gary

the VP50 would improve various things with the picture, a couple being the CUE filter and Y/C delay, every darn Dish/Directv receiver I have seen has horrid CUE bug and a even worse y/c delay

the y/c delay needs to be -23 to correct one of my Dish SD PVR's :(

things can improve slightly but in regard to it looking better in a sense of perceived resolution, detail and etc. it ain't gonna happen, SD from Dish/Directv has been totally run under a bus before it gets to us:

horrid and I mean horrid posterization, combing artifacts, mpeg artifacts, cue bugs, y/c delays, reduced video resolution and even further reduced chroma resolution to save bandwidth= totally trash

the VP30/50 can correct some of this of course but the image ain't gonna look like upscaled SDI DVD or even in the same league, it has been long ruined before the VP30/50 even gets a crack at it

-Gary

Gary,

Well I hope I can see an apprieciable difference in the SD Output from my SA 4200HD Cablebox... I am so happy with my new 7th gen Pioneer 5070 Plasma... But when I watch the SD channels including my favorite SPEED channel... It's so disapointing. I was going to get the VP-30 but I figured I might as well wait for the 50 being I was going to get the 102 card anyway...

Tell me It will make Speed Better.... Please! LOL!

How about anything else to help... What about the Misquito I see people writing about here...

Thanks, Royd

I agree, the VP30 can make DirecTV/Dish's SD channels look "less bad" than they are already, but, I would certainly not purchase the VP30/50 with that as the primary reason. As noted, you can only do some much with garbage and it should not be seen as a failing of the VP30/50...

Say it right. 100% digital garbage :p
BTW, where was there ever a signal that was 50% digital. You gotta love advertizing. :rolleyes:

- Rich

You can't make it look like a HD film source or even as good as deinterlaced and scaled 480i film. But you can make it significantly better.

RoydRage,

My experience is that SD cable is much better than SD Satellite. I think you will see a much better improvement with a VP50 having cable as the source as opposed to Satellite.

I have Comcast and my cable does not look that bad when run through the VP30 on a 92" screen. At 50", you should be satisfied - but it will never be HD. It will be watchable.

As an aside.

I had a friend get both D*and Comcast Cable at the same time and compared the picture before making the HD commitment. All I can say is that it was NO comparision. When I saw the difference, I told him there must be something wrong with the setup. So, he called D* and had a tech come out. While I was there, he switched between the two pictures telling him that there must be something wrong. THe tech checked everything out and replied, Nope, everything is fine. Needless to say, 15 minutes later, the tech was leaving with the D* equipment in his truck.

The best part was when we asked the tech which picture he preferred. His reply was, "no comment!"

The best part was

Thanks Guys...

I'm looking looking for HD... But If it cleans it up, and makes it a little sharper I'd be happy... I'm just nervous cause there's a guy that posted on the vP30 forum that said he had the 102 card, and the SD signal from cable looked like Crap!

Now just to wait for the 50... I wonder how long.... Ho Hum.

Ohh my 971 with SDI should be arriving today! so when the 50 does come I'll be ready there....

Thanks, Royd

BTW... Fios will be availible in my area soon... I wonder how that will look...

Ohh my 971 with SDI should be arriving today! so when the 50 does come I'll be ready there....

Presuming you ordered the SDI input card for the VP50 too (these can be found much cheaper from dealers/second hand). ;)

Over the air HD is the best. Big beam, rotate it towards DC or Baltimore for me. Very directional. just one or two clicks on the rotor control can make a big difference.

Looking at the VP50 manual, I only see Saturation and Hue controls for Blue. Do the VP30 and/or VP50 allow the user to adjust the red, green and blue Saturation and hue for a given input individually via some advanced menu? Or are you limited to only changing the blue hue/saturation of a given input?

Over the last couple of pages or so, I really appreciated the very down to Earth, basic, laymen's spelling out of what people can and can't expect if they buy a VP. :)

Do the VP30 and/or VP50 allow the user to adjust the red, green and blue Saturation and hue for a given input individually via some advanced menu?You'll need a Lumagen or the Optoma HD3000 for this.

I think the confusion stemmed from two statements in the VP50 FAQ on the DVDO site that seem to conflict with each other:
From Question #6

and from Question #7


:confused:
Yeah, this is basically the question I raised in #409 I think in this thread. I've had it confirmed elsewhere (as it was in response to your first posting) that actually the FAQ is out of date and wrong and that compatible audio does get diverted/duplicated from HDMI/HDCP to optical & coax on the vp30 already and presumably on the vp50.

VP50 : VRS Precision Video Scaling II™ technology by ABT - 10-bit Scaling with Enhanced Sharpness Control. Is the 10-bit enhanced sharpness control something new for the VP50,or is it the same scaling/sharpness function in the VP30 ?

The VP30 description reads the same.

Just for my interest:

How many FPGAs/chips are in the VP50? I guess the scaling has its own chip and probably the deinterlacing has its own FPGA. And the fan is sitting on the deinterlacing FPGA, right? Where do algorithms like gamma correction, FRC, CUE filtering etc run? Or is there only one very big FPGA which is doing ALL the work including scaling etc?

Thanks!

I reckon the scaling is a fixed function chip.

madshi,

What's the difference? The separation is purely physical, not logical - there's virtually no difference (other than cost & design) if it's on one big FPGA or 2 (or more) smaller ones.

What's the difference? The separation is purely physical, not logical - there's virtually no difference (other than cost & design) if it's on one big FPGA or 2 (or more) smaller ones.
True. it's not really that important. I just find it interesting. Josh said that "all" algorithms in the VP50 are upgradable through firmware. As far as I understand that, this includes the scaling algorithm. I always thought the scaling was done by a fixed function chip in VP30 and older VPs (though I'm not sure). If the scaling was really fixed function in older VPs and is FPGA in the VP50, that may give us some things to think about.

True. it's not really that important. I just find it interesting. Josh said that "all" algorithms in the VP50 are upgradable through firmware. As far as I understand that, this includes the scaling algorithm. I always thought the scaling was done by a fixed function chip in VP30 and older VPs (though I'm not sure). If the scaling was really fixed function in older VPs and is FPGA in the VP50, that may give us some things to think about.

I'm pretty certain the scaling engine is on an FPGA. For instance, they updated the VP30 to add non-linear scaling. And there was talk by Dale (or possibly Josh) about not having enough space on the HD+ FPGA to add non-linear scaling, but they did on the VP30 (sorry, no reference handy). Looking at the board on a VP30 you can see the various IO chips, the Sil504, a Xilinx Spartan (FPGA), and something (in a BGA package IIRC) under a heat sink. I'm guessing the scaling engine is an FPGA under the heat sink, that the non-heat sinked Spartan FPGA contains the OS/UI, and we all know the 504 is the deinterlacer. On the VP50 I'd assume they'd evolve their previous multi-chip design, but replace the deinterlacer with an FPGA. So perhaps they'll be using a 3 FPGA design? Josh or Dale would know for certain, else we'll probably be able to figure it out once the VP50's in our hands.

I posted some HD+ & VP30 internals photos a year or so back on the VP30 thread. The resolution isn't quite high enough to read chip id's, but you may still find the general board layout interesting. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6735988&&#post6735988

- Collin

I dug up an old close up of the VP30's core digital engine. The two Silicon Image chips at the top are the PanelLink HDMI interface chips. The large Silicon Image chip in the lower right is the Sil504. The connector above the 504 is the expansion port for the ABT102 daughter card. To the left of the expansion port is a Xilinix Spartan FPGA (OS/UI??). Below the Spartan is some Samsung RAM. Continuing left is something under a heat sink (scaling engine?? FPGA??) and some more Samsung RAM.

- Collin

So perhaps they'll be using a 3 FPGA design? Josh or Dale would know for certain, else we'll probably be able to figure it out once the VP50's in our hands.
- Collin

One of the reasons they probably don't want to talk about it just yet is because there might be a 4e fpga for noise reduction and mpeg cleanup. For the rest i also think it makes sense they evolved the vp30 design of sepr. fpga's for functions one for gui/control, one for deinterlacing (like the 102d) one for scaling and maybe one for dnr/mpeg makes alot of sense to me. This would mean less heat from 1 part of the unit and expains why Josh talks about a temp. controlled fan in the box not on one of the chips (if i remember correctly). Also lumagen when asked a while back on their new box commented it would have 4 fpga's aside from the realta so its not that weird.

Daniel.

That's interesting, thanks Collin!

just a quick correction, the ABT102 can be upgraded too (it is also using an FPGA), the problem is that the VP30 was not designed to reprogram the ABT102, so that's why the algorithms on it are "fixed". Theoretically, at least, ABT102 can be upgraded using "other" techniques.

There is a 1 1/2 hour dealer training at Cedia for the VP30/VP50. Josh is teaching the course. I think we will find out a lot more during that and I know DVDO will be announcing some as yet unannounced things about the VP50 (software upgrades under development and to be available shortly after initial release). The class is only 11 days away.

Lumagen will have some surprises about the Radiance too but it definately will not be shown.

All in all, very good news for processor buffs.

Questions about handling of 1080p inputs: Is the strictly pass-through only with no "touching of the signal" or can it do some processing? Most important can the VP50 take 1080p 24fps and convert to 1080p 48Hz or 60Hz? Also does it do picture processing of color, black level, hue, and contrast?

just a quick correction, the ABT102 can be upgraded too (it is also using an FPGA), the problem is that the VP30 was not designed to reprogram the ABT102, so that's why the algorithms on it are "fixed". Theoretically, at least, ABT102 can be upgraded using "other" techniques.

Infact you as a beta tester for the 102d can confirm the board had several new (software) releases in the form of the softfware it loaded right (even if you had to swap boards)?

Daniel.

With the annoucement of HD-DVD players supporting HDMI 1.3 to be available by this X'mas, will VP50 (or a subsequent upgrade) be HDMI 1.3 compatible? At least in the way that it can "talk" to both HDMI 1.3 source and receiver without any compromises..

There is a 1 1/2 hour dealer training at Cedia for the VP30/VP50. Josh is teaching the course. I think we will find out a lot more during that and I know DVDO will be announcing some as yet unannounced things about the VP50 (software upgrades under development and to be available shortly after initial release). The class is only 11 days away.

Lumagen will have some surprises about the Radiance too but it definately will not be shown.

All in all, very good news for processor buffs.
Good info, thanks. I hope you'll write a nice little report for those of us who can't visit Cedia?

I sure will.

With the annoucement of HD-DVD players supporting HDMI 1.3 to be available by this X'mas, will VP50 (or a subsequent upgrade) be HDMI 1.3 compatible? At least in the way that it can "talk" to both HDMI 1.3 source and receiver without any compromises..
hdmi 1.3 is compatible with 1.1

True. it's not really that important. I just find it interesting. Josh said that "all" algorithms in the VP50 are upgradable through firmware. As far as I understand that, this includes the scaling algorithm. I always thought the scaling was done by a fixed function chip in VP30 and older VPs (though I'm not sure). If the scaling was really fixed function in older VPs and is FPGA in the VP50, that may give us some things to think about.

A little follow up. The scaling engine is definitely an FPGA on the VP30. Direct confirmation from Dale Adams of DVDO is here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7346066&highlight=FPGA#post7346066

- Collin

I had a friend get both D*and Comcast Cable at the same time and compared the picture before making the HD commitment. All I can say is that it was NO comparision. When I saw the difference, I told him there must be something wrong with the setup. So, he called D* and had a tech come out. While I was there, he switched between the two pictures telling him that there must be something wrong. THe tech checked everything out and replied, Nope, everything is fine. Needless to say, 15 minutes later, the tech was leaving with the D* equipment in his truck.

The best part was when we asked the tech which picture he preferred. His reply was, "no comment!"

I just got the new Dish HD box and hardisk recorder. It uses MPEG4 compression algorithm and a signal off a different satillite than the old legacy HD boxes and I noticed right away that both the SD and HD were significantly better due to the newer compression algorithms being employed. In fact, I had one friend comment " What are all the stations in high def now?" and he was right- the SD picture of the new Dish equipment looks great without any post-processing. I do think there is a market (at what price I don't know what it should be) for high-end motion-adaptive deinterlacing for HD sports to properly deinterlace 1080i and quality upconvertion of 720p so the amount of blurr in fast motion and horizontal panning is kept to a minimum with the large fixed pixel displays that everyone has now. Since the opportunity cost of owning is relative (my display is just a Sony 60" A2000), then for me, I'd need to be able to get one of these bad boys in a deal (30 day money back gaurante?) that would allow me to return it if after A/B testing it didn't deliver spectacular results. As far as the Dish/Direct TV issue you described, this is just one guys opinion, but if you had the old legacy MPEG2 HD system, you did not see the best HD picture that Dish has to offer,

hdmi 1.3 is compatible with 1.1

Thanks Choddo. Compatibility in this sense is one thing.. but I have the impression that once a HDMI 1.1 device is introduced into the AV chain, only those data that are within the specs of HDMI 1.1 will be transmitted.

Can you kindly verify on that? TIA.

I just got the new Dish HD box and hardisk recorder. It uses MPEG4 compression algorithm and a signal off a different satillite than the old legacy HD boxes and I noticed right away that both the SD and HD were significantly better due to the newer compression algorithms being employed.

but if you had the old legacy MPEG2 HD system, you did not see the best HD picture that Dish has to offer,


Sorry dude, but the mpeg-4 HD is actually worse than their mpeg2 stuff. So you might try a 942 instead as it had better quality than your 622 currently does. Maybe in the future the 622 will surpase the 942, but that is not the case today. :)

A little follow up. The scaling engine is definitely an FPGA on the VP30. Direct confirmation from Dale Adams of DVDO is here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7346066&highlight=FPGA#post7346066
Ouch. Thanks. I had even asked it myself back then. I guess I need to run a scandisk and defrag on my brain's harddisk.

I would also like to know what impact, if any, the lack of HDMI 1.3 will have in the future. Up to 48-bit colors may not be important for a while, because displays with that kind of capability won't be made any time soon(?). But what about support for the new HD audio formats? Is it likely to be a problem? I'd like the receiver to do the decoding, not the source.

Ouch. Thanks. I had even asked it myself back then. I guess I need to run a scandisk and defrag on my brain's harddisk.

Ha! I didn't realize it was you asking the question when I found this reference. Very amusing.

- Collin

Ha! I didn't realize it was you asking the question when I found this reference. Very amusing.
:o

Thanks Choddo. Compatibility in this sense is one thing.. but I have the impression that once a HDMI 1.1 device is introduced into the AV chain, only those data that are within the specs of HDMI 1.1 will be transmitted.

Can you kindly verify on that? TIA.
Correct.

I would also like to know what impact, if any, the lack of HDMI 1.3 will have in the future. Up to 48-bit colors may not be important for a while, because displays with that kind of capability won't be made any time soon(?). But what about support for the new HD audio formats? Is it likely to be a problem? I'd like the receiver to do the decoding, not the source.
To the best of my knowledge, all of the hirez optical disc players that are out now and those that have been announced all decode the audio in the player, and in fact, how the discs themselves are created is what determines if the audio can be passed to an outboard decoder and so far, every one that's been released is in what's called Advanced which means the audio is decoded in the player.

By the time HDMI 1.3 is the norm, and there are players that actually pass the hirez bitstream, and there are displays that can actually make use of the higher bit color-depth, DVDO will probably have a new product that will incorporate those abilities.

In other words, in my opinion, HDMI 1.3 is not needed, and won't be needed for quite some time. I'm guessing that it will be at least 2 years before the specs of HDMI 1.3 will be a "needed" aspect when purchasing equipment.

Check out www.dvdtown.com
HD-DVD players that will be released in Europe very shortly will have HDMI 1.3 plus 1080P output.
These players will also come to the U.S.A. shortly after the European release.
In short, 1.3 will be here before you know it!

1.3 will be here when a signicant % of devices including displays, deceivers, satallite and cable boxes, and dvd players have it.

Keenen is right-it will be several years

And 18 months from now HDMI 2.0 will be announced, and that one compared to 1.3 will be a biggie. No. I can't say more.

And won't it be backward compatible with HDMI 1.3, 1.2a, 1.2, 1.1, and 1.0? Like 1.3 is backward compatible?

And 18 months from now HDMI 2.0 will be announced, and that one compared to 1.3 will be a biggie. No. I can't say more.

I groaned out loud when I read that.

To the best of my knowledge, all of the hirez optical disc players that are out now and those that have been announced all decode the audio in the player, and in fact, how the discs themselves are created is what determines if the audio can be passed to an outboard decoder and so far, every one that's been released is in what's called Advanced which means the audio is decoded in the player.

By the time HDMI 1.3 is the norm, and there are players that actually pass the hirez bitstream, and there are displays that can actually make use of the higher bit color-depth, DVDO will probably have a new product that will incorporate those abilities.

In other words, in my opinion, HDMI 1.3 is not needed, and won't be needed for quite some time. I'm guessing that it will be at least 2 years before the specs of HDMI 1.3 will be a "needed" aspect when purchasing equipment.


Great post...agree with your analysis. :)

I'm guessing that it will be at least 2 years before the specs of HDMI 1.3 will be a "needed" aspect when purchasing equipment.
Yep. It's really starting to feel like trying to future-proof your AV investment is a fool's errand.

My philosophy is "get what works now & live with it as long as you can". And DON'T burn extra cash on the latest & greatest as it won't be in 6 months.

Is there any possibility that separate controls for Saturation and Hue of Green, Red and Blue will be added to the VP50 input controls at some time?

Check out www.dvdtown.com
HD-DVD players that will be released in Europe very shortly will have HDMI 1.3 plus 1080P output.
These players will also come to the U.S.A. shortly after the European release.
In short, 1.3 will be here before you know it!
Unless the players will pass un-decoded Hirez audio, and the disc itself is authored that way, HDMI 1.1 is still sufficient as it will handle 1080p. No doubt HDMI 1.3 will be available in components late this year and more likely early next year, but practically speaking, I really don't see any advantage to it.

Of course, there will always be those that insist on being on the bleeding edge, for me, the question is, does it offer me any practical, useful benefit. OTOH, the way DVDO releases hardware, and given their to date generous upgrade policy, chances are the first 1.3 device I own will be a new-future VP, even though I don't foresee any near-term need for the 1.3 aspect of it.

HOORAY!!!!! It's September 6th!!!

anyone have a long memory? Say, 3 weeks worth? ;)

Why the secrecy/lack of reply in regards to noise reduction? I mean - I guess it's a good thing that DVDO can play Santa Claus from time to time and pull surprise 'gifts' from their bag (of tricks), but for what I imagine must be a lot of customers, noise reduction of various varieties can be a deciding factor when they plan on buying a video processor.

Like for instance at another forum I'm at, there's a thread detailing the capabilities of the various video processors out there, and all(?) the others have some sort of noise reduction, while the VP50 is listed as not having any at all. I'm then thinking that a lot of people may then decide on buying one of those others processors instead of the VP50. Especially when some of them cost less than the VP50 will do when released. For me to then say "well, perhaps the VP50 will have NR someday too, y'know" doesn't really cut it.

Sept 6th? What is significant about it? Wasn't the VP50 pushed back until the end of this month?

HOORAY!!!!! It's September 6th!!!

anyone have a long memory? Say, 3 weeks worth? ;)


OK...so my memory isn't as good as it once was..

Make with the goods, big guy. :)

Why the secrecy/lack of reply in regards to noise reduction? I mean - I guess it's a good thing that DVDO can play Santa Claus from time to time and pull surprise 'gifts' from their bag (of tricks), but for what I imagine must be a lot of customers, noise reduction of various varieties can be a deciding factor when they plan on buying a video processor.

Like for instance at another forum I'm at, there's a thread detailing the capabilities of the various video processors out there, and all(?) the others have some sort of noise reduction, while the VP50 is listed as not having any at all. I'm then thinking that a lot of people may then decide on buying one of those others processors instead of the VP50. Especially when some of them cost less than the VP50 will do when released. For me to then say "well, perhaps the VP50 will have NR someday too, y'know" doesn't really cut it.
Maybe they don't know if it will make the cut yet and don't want to commit to something that persuades people to buy and then fail to deliver

If they are releasing this unit in 2 to 3 of weeks then someone has to know by now.

Hmm, not necessarily as it's software, especially if the delay is down to trying to fit features like this in?

Plus, another thought, at CEDIA they will want to have something new to announce just on the basis that standing up & saying the same things everyone already knows doesn't make for an exciting pres.

Well hope all you want but chances are if it is not announced yet then they probably won't have NR. Do you think they will be able to squeeze it in then package all the units (I am sure there are a lot of pre orders alone) and have them out in 2 to 3 weeks?