New DVDO iScan VP50 [Text View] - Page 23

javry

10-13-07, 09:42 AM

To be honest, I haven't listened to any of the new HD audio formats for movies (THD or DTSMA), so I can't say one way or the other. Since I keep my stuff for a long time, I might as well get a 1.3 AVR and use as a Pre/Pro. I am looking for some more juice than my Pioneer Elite (110w) provides so and external amp is desired. My digital inputs are non-functioning. I can only get sound through my analog multi-channel inputs, so I need a new unit, but I am looking for something with good S/N ratio. They typical AVR is lacking in this performance area.

Found an intersting thread about this issue. It sure cleared up alot for me about the differnces between bitstream and PCM.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11081096#post11081096

Axel

10-13-07, 05:08 PM

I have been unsuccessfully trying to install the 1.05 f/w. I am using the TeraTerm loader with a direct serial connection. After getting about 3/4 through the upload, the connection times out and I have to reset the VP50 to be able to restart the process. I wanted to download the 1.05 again from the DVDO website again to ensure that my file is not corrupted, but I can no longer find it. Has it been pulled?

In the interim I will try to load 1.04 (that's still on the website) to get the unit working again - right now it's pretty much dead (after resetting the unit the display informs me about a corrupt firmware - not surprising since the installation did not work...)

Any help would be very much appreciated.
TIA!
____
Axel

-Hitman-

10-13-07, 05:42 PM

Axel,

try Barry Gordons superb DVDO loading utility program...

Here..

http://www.the-gordons.net/homepage/DownLoad.html

Never had any issues with it myself!

Many thanks to Barry.

Axel

10-13-07, 05:57 PM

JUST GREAT! Now I have gotten the same SW checksum/timeout error also with 1.04 and I have officially bricked my unit.

Any idea how to proceed from here?

TIA!
____
Axel

Axel

10-13-07, 05:59 PM

Axel,

try Barry Gordons superb DVDO loading utility program...

Here..

http://www.the-gordons.net/homepage/DownLoad.html

Never had any issues with it myself!

Many thanks to Barry.

I had not mentioned it, but I already tried it to no avail. today. I actually used it a while back when 1.04 beta initially came up. I agree Barry did a very nice job with his utility.
____
Axel

Axel

10-13-07, 07:08 PM

Axel

10-13-07, 08:23 PM

I finally made some progress. I was able to load 1.04 and the unit is up and running again (apart from the fact that I lost all my settings). All I did was using the Term loader again. (I have heard once of definition of insanity if someone does the very same thing over and over again and expects a different outcome? Well this happened here and eventually worked :D).

So, back to my initial attempt to update to 1.05 BETA....

Has anybody else had some issue with this update?
Any idea to why is it no longer available on the DVDO website?
_____
Axel

Axel

10-13-07, 08:44 PM

Oh, maybe while the DVDO download is not available - my guess at least till Mon, could anyone please email me the 1.05 f/w file? I am still a bit worried that the file I downloaded a few days ago is corrupted. Please pm me for my email address.

Thanks!
____
Axel

CraigN

10-13-07, 10:51 PM

No problem downloading the firmware right now.

7,468,833 bytes

CraigN

10-14-07, 12:23 AM

With 1.04 firmware, I was able to output a 23.98 (locked) signal but only using framerate conversion from a 1080p/60 signal. This was for the most part OK, but approximately 3-4 times in a movie there were "microstutters" and less frequently a narrow band (approx 2% only) of image tearing at the bottom of the screen. These problems were markedly better than 1.03 firmware.

So far after about one hour with 3 different Blu Rays (1080p/24 into and out of the VP50), all is well. Time will tell if this is the final fix.

You saw those problems because that configuration was actually running in unlocked mode, even though the VP50 told you it was running in locked mode. That's one of the bugs that got fixed.

- Dale Adams

Thanks Dale.

My first quote above refers to improvements in image stability with 1.05 already installed.

So does this mean that, with 1.05 firmware, with a 1080i/60 or 1080p/60 input and framerate conversion to 1080p/24 that image stability will now be just as good as 24p in 24p out?

I am asking this to determine whether it is better to have a 1080p/24 capable HD DVD player. I already have the Pioneer for Blu Ray discs.

Dale Adams

10-14-07, 05:37 AM

So does this mean that, with 1.05 firmware, with a 1080i/60 or 1080p/60 input and framerate conversion to 1080p/24 that image stability will now be just as good as 24p in 24p out?Well, it definitely means that you won't be seeing stuttering due to the output not being locked to the input. There are other possible sources of problems, though.

Conversion from a 60 Hz 3:2 pulldown signal to 24 Hz will always depend on the quality of both the source and the deinterlacing. With a perfect source (i.e., no bad edits or breaks in the 3:2 cadence) and using the forced 3:2 mode in the VP50, then you should get a perfect conversion to a 24p output. As I understand it, most HD DVDs are mastered at 24p, so with a 1080i60 output and using the forced 3:2 deinterlacing mode you should get very good results.

There might be very occasional problems with other deinterlacing modes such as 'auto' and 'film bias'. Nothing that does adaptive cadence detection is perfect, and there will be times when the deinterlacer drops out of lock. This primarily happens when there's little or no motion in the signal, but fortunately that's when you won't notice any image stutter either.

With a 1080p60 source the VP50 is currently hardwired to 'film bias' mode for cadence detection. It would be nice to have the option to select the forced 3:2 mode, and I've mentioned this to ABT, but that's not currently an option in the v1.05 release.

One caveat on this: Still on my 'to do' list is to take a look at the extraction of a 24p signal from a 3:2 60Hz source to be sure that it's working correctly. I need a special version of one of the VP50 FPGAs to do this and I'm waiting for ABT to supply this to me. Once I have that I can verify whether or not the VP50 is performing as expected. Right now I think it is, but I can't swear to it.

See what happens when you ask an engineer a yes or no question? :D

- Dale Adams

CraigN

10-14-07, 05:52 AM

Many thanks for this very clear and detailed answer Dale.

It should be very helpful for many here.

Axel

10-14-07, 06:48 AM

No problem downloading the firmware right now.

7,468,833 bytes

I am still having problems; after filling out the Software/Beta Agreement form and and clicking 'I Agree', I always end up on the Anchorbaytech main site.
I tried IE and FF, purged browser history and cookies, and even tried a different computer - no dice. On the bright side the file I initially downloaded is the same size as yours.
____
Axel

VikingBoy

10-14-07, 02:31 PM

hey guys - anyone having trouble with upgrading via USB RS232 make sure you check you are using the right version of the FTDI driver. All my issus were due to something having upgraded the driver the the latest version without my knowing it had happened. The instructions are on the dvdo web site

got 1.05 up and running now

Axel

10-14-07, 03:04 PM

VikingBoy

10-14-07, 03:06 PM

vanilla rs232 should be fine then.

yes, downloaded v1.5 this evening abt 2 hours ago

Axel

10-14-07, 03:12 PM

vanilla rs232 should be fine then.

yes, downloaded v1.5 this evening abt 2 hours ago

I finally got it to download. I had to disable ZoneAlarm. This is/was not necessary for 1.04 :confused: :confused::confused:.

Anyway, I'll give installing 1.05 another shot. Wish me luck!
____
Axel

flyingvee

10-14-07, 05:47 PM

I finally got it to download. I had to disable ZoneAlarm. This is/was not necessary for 1.04 :confused: :confused::confused:.

Axel

fwiw, all my boxes are running ZA Pro, and have had no problems downloading 1.05 (or anything else) from ABT. Maybe new settings after a ZA upgrade?

ailean

10-15-07, 06:29 AM

Having been using 1.05 beta over the weekend I have to say all is looking good. 1080i50 from Sky HD (UK sat) looked better, again :), and 1080p60 and 1080p24 from PS3 worked great. I'm now back down to 3 display profiles again and have 1080p24 -> 1080p24 (to Sony Pearl) working! :D

Only things I didn't manage to test were SDI DVD and HDDVD 1080i60 but will take a look this week.

Didn't even have to redo my settings from 1.04. I'm in two minds about the progressive cadence detection switch off, at least while it's there I can blame my poor PS3 game performance on the VP50! :rolleyes:

vinodk

10-15-07, 10:32 AM

Loaded 1.05 successfully but in the output setup the 1080p24 is grayed out. Do I need to go in & change the frame rate to make that option available to me?
Thanks,

Dale Adams

10-15-07, 10:52 AM

Loaded 1.05 successfully but in the output setup the 1080p24 is grayed out. Do I need to go in & change the frame rate to make that option available to me?Most likely. I would guess that you're running at 60 Hz now. The pixel clock rate for the 1080p24 format with a 60 Hz frame rate is still way over the new clock frequency maximum of 165 MHz. Lowering the frame rate first will reduce the required pixel clock frequency, making the 1080p24 format available.

- Dale Adams

ailean

10-15-07, 11:05 AM

Loaded 1.05 successfully but in the output setup the 1080p24 is grayed out. Do I need to go in & change the frame rate to make that option available to me?
Thanks,

Yes, there is a good description of how to do this in the Vp50 Pro thread here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11902825#post11902825)

Although depending on you display you may only need to change the frame rate in your normal 1080p60 output setting to 24.

It's certainly something that DVDO need to make more user friendly, I thought it was a bodge when added to the VP50 but they seem to have kept it the same on the Pro which gives the impression it's a 'design feature'. :)

flyingvee

10-15-07, 11:40 AM

It's certainly something that DVDO need to make more user friendly, I thought it was a bodge when added to the VP50 but they seem to have kept it the same on the Pro which gives the impression it's a 'design feature'. :)

I'll agree; that said, you can do a search for Dale's explanation of why it is done that way - while I agree that it should have been set up more intuitively, once you read and understand the reason for it, it does make sense to do it the way they have.

Axel

10-16-07, 03:39 PM

I finally got it to download. I had to disable ZoneAlarm. This is/was not necessary for 1.04 :confused: :confused::confused:.

Anyway, I'll give installing 1.05 another shot. Wish me luck!
____
Axel

I finally was able to install 1.05. This time the process went through without any issues. :)
This time it also kept the settings, which I had lost in an earlier attempt and in the meantime had partially re-dialed in again. So, all is back to normal again, just need to finish setting up a few more profiles :). (It would be nice if one could download/upload those on a PC for back up purposes... and even nicer if one could configure the unit through a PC interface, e.g. through Barry's utility.)
____
Axel

ailean

10-17-07, 05:57 AM

I finally was able to install 1.05. This time the process went through without any issues. :)
This time it also kept the settings, which I had lost in an earlier attempt and in the meantime had partially re-dialed in again. So, all is back to normal again, just need to finish setting up a few more profiles :). (It would be nice if one could download/upload those on a PC for back up purposes... and even nicer if one could configure the unit through a PC interface, e.g. through Barry's utility.)
____
Axel

Some versions of Barry's tool have been able to configure some features as well as download/upload some settings. I *think* the output settings/profiles were doable but the input ones were not as the values changed depending on the input socket selected and the input res/framerate (you might be able to access these features with the current one by changing something in the config file).

I seem to remember him poking DVDO several times to implement some commands that could read all the values so he could fully implement backup/restore features... alas this hasn't happened yet. :(

At least most of the firmwares now no longer reset all the values when flashed but there's no guarantee that this will always be the case.

jowicrt

10-17-07, 05:34 PM

Last couple of day's i've noticed some strange things. I'm not sure if this is caused by the VP50 or by my setup, but i think i'll mention it here just to be sure.

At this moment i've got my Denon 3910 DVD player, my HDTV settopbox and my HTPC connected through HDMI to the VP50. Thing is, when i switch on the HTPC (Windows XP with Media Center) after a few seconds the screen is gone and the VP50 shows a lot of snow. If i disconnect the HDMI output and put it back in, the picture is reappearing, but after a few seconds it is gone again and i'm looking at snow... after a couple of times things seem to be ok and it doesn't happen again 'till the next day i turn on the PC etc etc. I've never had this when my PC was directly connected to my display.

This happens only with the PC as far as i can tell. The PC is connected to the VP50 with a budget 5ft DVI to HDMI cable. The VP50 (and before that, the PC) is connected to my display using a 50ft Gefen optical DVI cable. I've never had issues with the Gefen optical cable, so i think the 'el cheapo' hdmi/dvi cable which connects the pc to the VP50 is the culprit but i'm not sure...

Also, i did not notice this before with the 1.04 firmware... so there could be a relation with the 150mhz limit? My PC is the only component which utilizes >150Mhz.

Any idea's?

gmanhdtv

10-22-07, 05:03 PM

So whats the verdict on 1.05 beta??? Wait for official release or no reasons not to just update with 1.05??

ailean

10-22-07, 07:18 PM

So whats the verdict on 1.05 beta??? Wait for official release or no reasons not to just update with 1.05??

If you have PAL/EURO HD sources, definatly worth it.

If you need 1080p24 in with 1080p24 out, again definatly worth it.

I think the new feature (>150Mhz) is mostly working but not tried it, as it's only just been added I believe a bugett has been found already.

Other then that I've not seen any differance compared to 1.04, it's likely a 1.06 beta will appear before a production release, that may have progressive candance switch off.

Rich51567

10-22-07, 07:57 PM

I tried the to load 1.05 with the Tera Term loader once again. (Barry's utility no longer connects to the VP50). I was able to download the whole file. However at the end I got this error message again:

Failure
Timeout Error. No data send by PC.
Press front panel button to restart.

Hard resets (unplugging/pressing the top two buttons) only give me on the VP50 display:
External SRAM....OK
SW Checksum...
and then
Please load the .abt file now...

Any suggestions?
____
Axel

I also had the same issues loading 1.05 to my VP50. I found that unplugging the unit for a small amount of time then going through the update process with TeraTerm seems to solve most of these issues. Took three times for it to load. Seems like it gets stuck at around 995,XXX bytes. If you get past that it seems as though it will finish.

gmanhdtv

10-22-07, 10:14 PM

If you have PAL/EURO HD sources, definatly worth it.

If you need 1080p24 in with 1080p24 out, again definatly worth it.

I think the new feature (>150Mhz) is mostly working but not tried it, as it's only just been added I believe a bugett has been found already.

Other then that I've not seen any differance compared to 1.04, it's likely a 1.06 beta will appear before a production release, that may have progressive candance switch off.

I will resist temptation and wait for a production release. Good to see DVDO still working on these issues.;)

CraigN

10-23-07, 01:46 AM

big_marcelo

10-23-07, 03:17 AM

An update of my experience with 1.05 beta firmware.

The issues I had with the VP50 have now been resolved.

ie, 1080p/24 in and out (with intervening aspect ratio manipulation for my constant image height setup) works well and is stable. Frame rate conversion from 1080i/60 to 1080p/24 works well also. (I have both a Pioneer Blu Ray player that outputs 1080p/24 and a Toshiba HD DVD player that outputs 1080i/60) .

I have no need to upgrade to a VP50Pro (and no need to upgrade to a 1080p/24 capable HD DVD player).

Hi Craig,

did you notice any improvement in deinterlacing of 1080i HD TV or SD DVDs?

apparently the 1.05 should improve the above...

my DVDO is packaged and shipping to singapore, since I'm moving there.... when I get into my new place I intend to upgrade to 1.05.... i'm trying as hard as I can not to upgrade to the VP50 pro.....

all I wanted was a bit of 'noise reduction' for SD sources... since the VP50 will not do that, I'm upgrading my amp to see if it will improve SD sources (Reon equiped, Onkyo 905) ..... I don't want to spend US$1,500 for noise reduction alone ...

cheers,

marcelo

CraigN

10-23-07, 06:27 AM

Hi Craig,

did you notice any improvement in deinterlacing of 1080i HD TV or SD DVDs?

apparently the 1.05 should improve the above...

my DVDO is packaged and shipping to singapore, since I'm moving there.... when I get into my new place I intend to upgrade to 1.05.... i'm trying as hard as I can not to upgrade to the VP50 pro.....

all I wanted was a bit of 'noise reduction' for SD sources... since the VP50 will not do that, I'm upgrading my amp to see if it will improve SD sources (Reon equiped, Onkyo 905) ..... I don't want to spend US$1,500 for noise reduction alone ...
marcelo

Hi. I have really been concentrating on HD sources and 1080p/24 issues.

I did look at what the VP50 does for 576i sources last night and the results (upscaled to 1080p/50) looked very good. Whether 1.05 is better than 1.04 in this regard, I cannot comment.
cheers,

avrtRick

10-23-07, 06:47 AM

Hi.

I just qant to share some of my stupidity in regards to the new update.

Well today I got into the DVDO website and noticed the update for the VP50 and was delighted.
So, in my haste to do these,off I went on the journey to complete the downloading and all the proceeds that needed to be done,finally I had finished doing what I had to do, then I looked for the serial port on my laptop and much to my dismay it doesnt have one...LOL.

So next Tuesday, my AVspecialist will do this for me

CraigN

10-24-07, 02:36 AM

It's very quiet on this thread right now. Is there anybody else out there with experience with the new 1.05 beta firmware that they would like to share?

jowicrt

10-25-07, 08:16 AM

Everybody is playing with their new toy ;)

flyingvee

10-25-07, 08:43 AM

I'm trying to get my new pjs setup before I even think of wrasslin' with a new firmware. V1.04 has been very good to me, so I'm gonna get the other end of the chain working before I mess with a good thing. :)

mike_orst

10-25-07, 06:31 PM

I haven't upgraded yet. If I had the ability to disable the Progressive Cadence Detection I would have installed it ASAP, but since I was able to support 24p->48p with my projector it wasn't a huge benefit getting 24p->24p support.

Also the talk about passthru support won't really help me either as when I watch 16:9 content I'm using the VP50 to scale down the image to fit in my 2:35 screen. (Don't currently have a anamorphic lens and the loss of brightness / resolution doesn't outway the convience of not having to re-zoom and focus the projector when switching between 16:9 and 2.35 content). So i always need the scaling, just don't always want cadence detection.

Mike

TallCoolOne

10-25-07, 10:47 PM

hey all,
I upgraded my old Denon receiver to a new Onkyo TX-SR805 which supports all the new fancy audio formats. But I seem to be having a problem with sync issues when watching sources from any of my satellite receivers (Bell Expressvu 6100, DirecTV HR-20 and HD Tivo HR10-250). The problem is that the video is far ahead of the audio for some reason, and I have to crank the VP50's a/v sync as far negative as it can go and the Onkyo doesn't have a reverse sync, only one that makes it worse. With this setting it is close but still off enough to be annoying. If the VP50 could go do a slight more delay it would be fine. But I am wondering why I have this issue all of a sudden. I am always outputting 1080p60 from the VP50 so theoretically the Onkyo should not be doing any video processing. My PS3 and DVD player do not have this issue. All sources are using HDMI for audio and video (except the Bell 6100 which uses toslink for audio output via HDMI with the VP50). The HR-20 is using Native output so the VP50 does all the work to 1080p60.
Any suggestions?
thanks!

hey all, i posted this a while ago and didn't see any responses...is nobody else having a/v sync issues that the VP50 can't fix? I can't watch tv with it being off anymore, it's driving me nuts! It seems to be all fine if I don't go through the VP50..

vfrjim

10-26-07, 06:56 PM

I have not updated because my problem with the VP50 will never be addressed from my conversations with DVDO, so unless I purchase something new that the firmware addresses , 1.04 is fine with me.

wixx

10-27-07, 08:14 AM

Hello !

I went on updating both my XE1 and VP50 to the latest FW,
am running this on a 508XD Kuro, and I can't manage to have the XE1 outputing 1080/24 properly through the VP50, I get image flashes and the scaler wont lock on the res...

I was wondering if anyone had also that problem?

Thanks for your help!

Paul R M

10-28-07, 12:05 PM

Dale Adams

10-28-07, 03:39 PM

Hi,
does anyone know if the vp50can take 1080 at 24p from blu ray and convert it to 1080 at 48i or 72i.

sky hd at 1080 50i looks terrific on my sony g70 crt projector in th uk.

I've read that the g70 will run 1080p but the scan lines will overlap due to spot size so creating a softer picture and that 1080i looks much sharper,hence the reason for wanting the interlaced output.I don't have a Blu-ray player, but using another 1080p24 source I can get the VP50 to produce a 1080i 72Hz output. If you use the 24Hz-to-72Hz locked option for the output frame rate, then each incoming 1080p24 frame will be converted to 3 fields at the output of the VP50. 48 Hz output should work as well, but my display isn't happy with a 48 Hz input so I can't verify this. With a 48 Hz output the VP50 should show each 1080p24 input frame as 2 output fields.

Note that you'll need to use the latest) firmware version for the VP50 (beta v1.05) to ensure that the output is actually frame-locked to the input. Otherwise it will be unlocked (even though it says it's locked) so you'll get occasional stutters.

- Dale Adams

mdrew

10-28-07, 06:19 PM

I've been using a 1080P/24 and 1080i/60 input with a 1080P/48 output to my projector for several months. Have not tried 1080P/72 with the 1080i input.

flyingvee

10-28-07, 06:32 PM

Note that you'll need to use the latest) firmware version for the VP50 (beta v1.05) to ensure that the output is actually frame-locked to the input. Otherwise it will be unlocked (even though it says it's locked) so you'll get occasional stutters.

- Dale Adams

thanks Dale - now you've given me a reason to get off my tail and install the update. I've been running 1080i 72 on my Runco anyway, and I've been feeding it 1080p 24 from my PS3 - I'll have to install and try those settings.

CraigN

10-28-07, 08:44 PM

wixx

10-29-07, 02:15 PM

Hi Dale,

Now that the VP50 is producing a nice stable 1080p24 output from both 1080p24 and 1080i60 inputs -

Is there any PQ advantage to be gained from upgrading from an 1080i60 capable HDDVD player to one with 1080p24 output?

Check my post, It doesn't work properly when outputing at 1080P/24 from the EX1...

doesnt come either from the player nor the plasma, direct connexion works properly between those 2.

Dale Adams

10-29-07, 03:28 PM

Now that the VP50 is producing a nice stable 1080p24 output from both 1080p24 and 1080i60 inputs -

Is there any PQ advantage to be gained from upgrading from an 1080i60 capable HDDVD player to one with 1080p24 output?All else being equal, with a typical HD-DVD movie disc there shouldn't be any difference as long as you run the VP50 in forced 3:2 deinterlacing mode. This assumes that there are no other processing steps occurring inside the player for either output format, and that the player does all format conversions (e.g., 1080p24 from the disc to the 1080i60 output) correctly.

- Dale Adams

Dale Adams

10-29-07, 03:38 PM

Check my post, It doesn't work properly when outputing at 1080P/24 from the EX1...

doesnt come either from the player nor the plasma, direct connexion works properly between those 2.It doesn't necessarily follow that the player and display are bug-free just because they work with each other. There are known cases of problems with a source device, for instance, which don't show up when connected to most displays but do show up when connected to a video processor.

That's not to say that the VP50 isn't the problem, though. However, as I don't have either the player or display that you have there's no way I can determine what the problem is.

One possibility is that the player is not producing a 1080p24 output with standard timing. If that's the case, then there could be a problem with the VP50 in the chain as it really wants to see a 1080p24 signal which meets the timing specs for that format. It may be that the display is less picky than the VP50. That's all just speculation, though.

- Dale Adams

CraigN

10-29-07, 10:38 PM

All else being equal, with a typical HD-DVD movie disc there shouldn't be any difference as long as you run the VP50 in forced 3:2 deinterlacing mode. This assumes that there are no other processing steps occurring inside the player for either output format, and that the player does all format conversions (e.g., 1080p24 from the disc to the 1080i60 output) correctly.

- Dale Adams

Thanks Dale

One thing I noticed last night unrelated to PQ

-with 1080i/60 output from my Toshiba HDDVD converted to 1080p/24 by the VP50 - immediately after chapter skip, there is a small judder (approx 1 sec) which then settles to a stable picture. Presumably this is due to the VP50 locking on to the cadence.

This does not happen with a 1080p/24 input.

A minor but interesting issue.

Dale Adams

10-30-07, 05:42 AM

One thing I noticed last night unrelated to PQ

-with 1080i/60 output from my Toshiba HDDVD converted to 1080p/24 by the VP50 - immediately after chapter skip, there is a small judder (approx 1 sec) which then settles to a stable picture. Presumably this is due to the VP50 locking on to the cadence.

This does not happen with a 1080p/24 input.What deinterlacing mode are you running in when this happens? The 'auto' and 'film bias' modes will occasionally drop out of lock, typically when there's little or no motion in the image or around certain scene changes. This will sometimes, but not always, cause a short period of motion stutter as the VP50 re-locks to the cadence.

If the source is perfect 3:2 pulldown with no cadence breaks, which is the case with many HD-DVD titles, then this should not happen. Let me know if it does and which titles you see it on and perhaps I can figure out a fix.

- Dale Adams

CraigN

10-30-07, 07:37 AM

What deinterlacing mode are you running in when this happens? The 'auto' and 'film bias' modes will occasionally drop out of lock, typically when there's little or no motion in the image or around certain scene changes. This will sometimes, but not always, cause a short period of motion stutter as the VP50 re-locks to the cadence.

If the source is perfect 3:2 pulldown with no cadence breaks, which is the case with many HD-DVD titles, then this should not happen. Let me know if it does and which titles you see it on and perhaps I can figure out a fix.

- Dale Adams

By chapter skip I meant the jump forward or back by using the >I and I< buttons. The judder does not happen at any other time. ie skipping deliberately to the next or previous scene. I am using forced 3:2 deinterlacing.

Dale Adams

10-30-07, 09:05 AM

By chapter skip I meant the jump forward or back by using the >I and I< buttons. The judder does not happen at any other time. ie skipping deliberately to the next or previous scene. I am using forced 3:2 deinterlacing.Thanks for the clarification. When you manually skip forward or back you are breaking the 3:2 cadence. The VP50 then has to re-lock -- the forced 3:2 mode is slower to re-lock than the automatic modes, and this is what is causing the judder. The advantage of the forced 3:2 mode is that once it acquires lock, if the 3:2 sequence is never broken then the VP50 will not lose lock.

- Dale Adams

d.j.

10-30-07, 10:07 AM

Hi Dale

I have to say, that I like to have you back on the sideline ( for now anyway ) and wants to thank you for a lot off god information in the last many year´s.

I started with a Iscan Pro and then discoveret that one for the company was writting in here ( you - later Josh come by too ) Sins then, I have read your post with big interrest and you where a little part off why I later did buy a Iscan HD, I have been very happy with it by the way.
For short time ago I jump to the VP50 ( waited for the bugs to be solved first ) and are very pleaset to see you involvet in this too now - because I have good trust in you :-)

Enough off the praise, I do have one question:

when you go into the format and pick ex. 1366 x 768 and then change the front/back poch or H-shift,H-sync etc. is it important that you change them equal ? ( ex. if I change the front poch with + 30 I then have to change the back poch with -30 or dosn´t that matter
I do seems to remember, that you have talk about that the pixel timing ? clock ? has to be correct? ex. has 1366 x 768P 50hz to have one exact Mhz number ? ( in the HD it was the total pixel count, if I remember correct ) or has I gotten something completly turned around ?

Sorry for my not so perfect/ good spelling ( you should see my danish :-)) , but I do hope it make sense.

dj

-Hitman-

10-30-07, 10:50 AM

Dale Adams

10-30-07, 04:41 PM

when you go into the format and pick ex. 1366 x 768 and then change the front/back poch or H-shift,H-sync etc. is it important that you change them equal ? ( ex. if I change the front poch with + 30 I then have to change the back poch with -30 or dosn´t that matter
I do seems to remember, that you have talk about that the pixel timing ? clock ? has to be correct? ex. has 1366 x 768P 50hz to have one exact Mhz number ? ( in the HD it was the total pixel count, if I remember correct ) or has I gotten something completly turned around ?Changing the number of pixel clocks in a line will affect the pixel clock rate and the total number of pixel clocks in a frame. If you change the width of just the horizontal front or back porch by itself, then the number of pixel clocks in a line has changed. If you change one to compensate for a change in the other, then there's no resulting change in the number of clocks per line, per frame, or the pixel clock rate. The horizontal 'shift' control maintains the number of clocks in a line by automatically incrementing the front porch and decrementing the back porch (or vice versa) by the same amount. In general, the same applies to changing the vertical parameters (with the exception that the line timing stays the same).

Now, whether this matters or not will depend on your display and what specific timing it's happy with. Many displays are tolerant of at least small changes in these values, while a few really do want to see one specific timing. Most displays I've seen will work fine with changes of a few clocks or lines in either direction (i.e., added or subtracted). There are a few, though, which will not. Also note that there are timing specifications for the standard formats such as 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p, including different timings for different frame rates - i.e., there are different numbers of pixel clocks per line for 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p50 and 1080p60. Again, most displays are somewhat tolerant of variations for these standard formats.

So in the end, all that really matters is whether the timing you're sending to the display is something it's happy with. The biggest problem most people have to deal with is that the display manufacturers do not specify exactly what timings and formats their displays will work with. In the end, it often comes down to trial and error on the user's part.

- Dale Adams

Dale Adams

10-30-07, 05:03 PM

Note that you'll need to use the latest) firmware version for the VP50 (beta v1.05) to ensure that the output is actually frame-locked to the input. Otherwise it will be unlocked (even though it says it's locked) so you'll get occasional stutters.
Dale,

Can you explain why this happens as a few of us seem to get a better lock with displays when choosing unlocked rather than locked, even though it should be locked if locked is selected.

Is this some kind of a bug?Actually, there are at least 3 bugs in versions prior to 1.05 which affect the operation in locked mode. Beta firmware v1.05 fixes these bugs.

One of those bugs in is in the FPGA code. It effectively disables locked mode operation for everything but 1:1 operation (i.e., where the input and output frame rates are the same). When operating in locked mode, what is supposed to happen is that the pixel clock rate is very slightly varied (and I do mean very slightly) once per output frame period to keep the input and output frame periods the same. Because of the bug what actually happens is that the pixel clock rate is set once and then never changed, so you're essentially operating in unlocked mode. It's often not quite as bad as normal unlocked mode as the pixel clock rate is set to be very close to the nominal value. The hardware has the ability to adjust the pixel clock rate in finer increments than the user gets via the frame rate control menu, and in some cases I've seen this be so close to the 'correct' value as to cause a repeated or dropped frame only once every 10 or 20 minutes. It's still unlocked, though.

A second bug is that the deinterlacer's output timing is not programmed correctly for some types of signals. This has a number of detrimental results. The worst of these is that cadence detection on 1080i50 and 1080p50 sources is effectively completely broken, including the forced 2:2 mode (but not the 2:2 even or 2:2 odd). Another problem is that the deinterlacer's output timing is unstable with a 1080p24 or 1080p25 source. This instability is translated to the output when operating in 1:1 locked mode, since the locking mechanism varies the output timing to match the output frame period with the input frame period. Some displays are not happy with this unstable frame period and refuse to lock to the signal.

Yet a third bug resulted in a very unstable pixel clock on some VP50s when both the input and output were 1080p24. The instability was not there in unlocked mode, only in the 1:1 locked mode.

Again, all of these were fixed in v1.05.

- Dale Adams

-Hitman-

10-30-07, 07:39 PM

Thanks dale for the excellent explanation, as always:)

d.j.

10-30-07, 09:16 PM

Changing the number of pixel clocks in a line will affect the pixel clock rate and the total number of pixel clocks in a frame. If you change the width of just the horizontal front or back porch by itself, then the number of pixel clocks in a line has changed. If you change one to compensate for a change in the other, then there's no resulting change in the number of clocks per line, per frame, or the pixel clock rate. The horizontal 'shift' control maintains the number of clocks in a line by automatically incrementing the front porch and decrementing the back porch (or vice versa) by the same amount. In general, the same applies to changing the vertical parameters (with the exception that the line timing stays the same).

Now, whether this matters or not will depend on your display and what specific timing it's happy with. Many displays are tolerant of at least small changes in these values, while a few really do want to see one specific timing. Most displays I've seen will work fine with changes of a few clocks or lines in either direction (i.e., added or subtracted). There are a few, though, which will not. Also note that there are timing specifications for the standard formats such as 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p, including different timings for different frame rates - i.e., there are different numbers of pixel clocks per line for 1080p24, 1080p25, 1080p50 and 1080p60. Again, most displays are somewhat tolerant of variations for these standard formats.

So in the end, all that really matters is whether the timing you're sending to the display is something it's happy with. The biggest problem most people have to deal with is that the display manufacturers do not specify exactly what timings and formats their displays will work with. In the end, it often comes down to trial and error on the user's part.

- Dale Adams

Thank you mr. Adams
It was exactly that kind off answer, I was looking for :) ( I allmost understand the hole thing :D ).

My display is a 8" CRT projector ( Marquee 8000 ) and I think that it is very forgiven with the timings and pixel clocks, because I have changed the front and back poch a lot ( to get the picture to fit perfect with the help off the internal test-picture and DVE, so there is no overscan, allmost no pixelcrop and the picture fits to the screen ) and still the picture are stabil and looking good.
If I change the timing specifications and the pixel clocks for the standard formats such as 480/576p ( Im in PAL country ), 720p, 1080i and 1080p with the front/back poch, sync etc. is there any problem with that ( do I loose any picture Quality or anything else ? ) so long that the projector can accept it and give a stabil picture ?
I have adjusted my projector to a output from the VP50 at 1366 x 768P at 48 hz ( BR and NTSC DVD) and 50 hz ( PAL DVD, PAL TV ) it seems to be the resolution that work best. I have tried with 720P, 1080i, 1080P and 1440 x 960 output too and I needed to change the Front/back poch,sync,shifts and so on, for them all, to get them to fit accurate on the screen without changing anything on the projectors adjustment. By doing that, have I then ruined my "objektive" test off the different resolutions on my projector ?
The pictures at all resolutions where stabil and did look "correct"

Thank you very much for good and informative answers - I appreciate you help :)

Greeting

DJ

avrtRick

10-31-07, 03:31 AM

Dale,
As I have been reading and have seen the mention of bugs in the VP50 leeds me to ask this question that I think that you might be able to answer without hesitation

Is there any reason to update to the latest firmware at the moment?

The other day when talking about this with my AVspecialist,he said that I should wait until the the firmware is "production firmware 1.05" rather than Beta firmware.
should I wait or should I go with whats out now?
thanks for your reply in advance

avrtRick

10-31-07, 03:50 AM

Another for you Dale,

I also have been wondering about the same thing that D.J has questioned.
Is there some way that you could give me a sheet of information that thouroghly explains how to use these settings of the VP50.
My display is a KDS60R2000(SXRD)
Are you able to specify the way to set these parameters of the VP50 for the best results on this display
I have looked at this menu time and time again and did not know where to start,or what to do, as I dont even know what they are for (amature here)but would very much like to know how to use everything inside the VP and actually understand what Im doing

Thanks once again,and anyone that can enlighten me, are very welcome

Dale Adams

10-31-07, 10:04 AM

My display is a 8" CRT projector ( Marquee 8000 ) and I think that it is very forgiven with the timings and pixel clocks, because I have changed the front and back poch a lot ( to get the picture to fit perfect with the help off the internal test-picture and DVE, so there is no overscan, allmost no pixelcrop and the picture fits to the screen ) and still the picture are stabil and looking good.Ah, you have a CRT projector -- that changes things a bit. My comments regarding standard formats and timings were largely meant for digital displays which have fixed pixel counts and digital interfaces such as DVI or HDMI. I have also seen a few early rear-projection CRT displays with DVI inputs which were very picky about formats and timings, but that doesn't apply to you.

Most CRT projectors are much more flexible devices and can be configured to accept a wide range of scan rates, although they're often set up to one particular 'sweet spot' which is optimum for the particular projector and the intended use. It appears that you've already done that for your projector and that you're happy with the results. I don't think you need to worry at all about deviating from standard timings in your situation.

- Dale Adams

Dale Adams

10-31-07, 10:14 AM

Is there any reason to update to the latest firmware at the moment?The main reasons to update would be if:

1) You're using a 1080p24 input.
2) You're using a 1080i50 or 1080p50 input.
3) You're using one of the non-1:1 locked frame rate modes such as 60 Hz in to 48 Hz out.
4) You want an output format with a pixel clock rate higher than 150 MHz (up to 165 MHz).

The other day when talking about this with my AVspecialist,he said that I should wait until the the firmware is "production firmware 1.05" rather than Beta firmware.
should I wait or should I go with whats out now?I would say that if any of the above situations apply to you, then try v1.05. Yes, there might be other bugs, although I have a hard time believing they might be more serious than the ones that are already there and are fixed in v1.05. If you do find a problem you can't live with, then you can always revert to the version you're running with now. However, if none of the above situations apply to you, then you might as well wait until the next production version (assuming another beta doesn't come out before then with some good stuff in it :D ).

- Dale Adams

Dale Adams

10-31-07, 10:33 AM

I also have been wondering about the same thing that D.J has questioned.
Is there some way that you could give me a sheet of information that thouroghly explains how to use these settings of the VP50.
My display is a KDS60R2000(SXRD)
Are you able to specify the way to set these parameters of the VP50 for the best results on this displayThere is no single way to set or to go about setting the various video timing parameters for every display or situation. In general, unless you have a good reason to change them you probably shouldn't be mucking about with them. That being said, there are plenty of good reasons to adjust the timing parameters. The most common is probably to achieve 1:1 pixel mapping. What's needed to do that can vary wildly depending on your display.

I'm not familiar with your particular display, so I can't really recommend anything. Is there something specific which is a problem or which you'd like to fix or change?

- Dale Adams

Fudoh

10-31-07, 02:38 PM

A quick question on the VP50's output format setup:

Why are there dedicated 1080p-50/60/24 settings in the first place ? At the moment I'm still driving a WXGA LCD plus a 720p beamer, but I try to understand the proper setup for my coming 1080p display.

Currently I use the 1366x768 setting and the output framerate is set in the framerate menu where I use 50->50Hz locked and 60->48Hz locked right now.

So, what's the point in the different 1080p format settings and what does the appendix (-50-/-60/-24) tell me ? Do those settings override the framerate setting ? I live in a PAL country, so I have to switch between 50/60/24p inputs constantly.

I would say it's a bit confusing to see the refresh rate settings twice (in the format menu on the 1080p-xx options and in the framerate menu)....

Any hints would be highly appreciated !
Thanks,
Tobias

Josh@dvdo

10-31-07, 03:06 PM

A quick question on the VP50's output format setup:

Why are there dedicated 1080p-50/60/24 settings in the first place ? At the moment I'm still driving a WXGA LCD plus a 720p beamer, but I try to understand the proper setup for my coming 1080p display.

Currently I use the 1366x768 setting and the output framerate is set in the framerate menu where I use 50->50Hz locked and 60->48Hz locked right now.

So, what's the point in the different 1080p format settings and what does the appendix (-50-/-60/-24) tell me ? Do those settings override the framerate setting ? I live in a PAL country, so I have to switch between 50/60/24p inputs constantly.

I would say it's a bit confusing to see the refresh rate settings twice (in the format menu on the 1080p-xx options and in the framerate menu)....

The reason that there are adjustments for frame rate (for 1080p output at least) in both the Format selection and in the Frame Rate selection is that there are CEA timings for 1080p at different frame rates (1080p-24, 1080p-25, 1080p-50, 1080p-60) but other output resolutions, like 1366x768, can also be output with a "non-standard" frame rate but they are not defined formats.

d.j.

10-31-07, 03:45 PM

Ah, you have a CRT projector -- that changes things a bit. My comments regarding standard formats and timings were largely meant for digital displays which have fixed pixel counts and digital interfaces such as DVI or HDMI. I have also seen a few early rear-projection CRT displays with DVI inputs which were very picky about formats and timings, but that doesn't apply to you.

Most CRT projectors are much more flexible devices and can be configured to accept a wide range of scan rates, although they're often set up to one particular 'sweet spot' which is optimum for the particular projector and the intended use. It appears that you've already done that for your projector and that you're happy with the results. I don't think you need to worry at all about deviating from standard timings in your situation.

- Dale Adams

Dale
Thank you again, that was what I was thinking, but I admit, Im a tweaker-nerd :o and always think I just can get 1% more out off it, then I spend 10 hour´s more adjusting and end at the same result :D

DJ

baddgsx

10-31-07, 05:13 PM

hi , i interested in getting the VP50 for my home theater setup. How big of a difference will i see in picture quality? My main concern is seeing the quality from the PS3 1080P (bluray) to dvdo and out 1080i (TV converts to 1080p). Will it be a noticable difference there. Bluray already looks amazing on my jvc hd 70fh96 dila display. Will it look even better? Thanx Chris

Fudoh

10-31-07, 06:25 PM

avrtRick

11-01-07, 01:52 AM

Thanks Dale,

I might wait a while.
I'm gonna buy a VP50pro anyhow, the pro can manage the things that is required in my HT setup

avrtRick

11-01-07, 02:02 AM

bigbrother52

11-01-07, 03:30 AM

I'm using the USB to SERIAL adapter I bought from DVDO to load software.
I think the cable is working, with the proper FTDI USB-to-serial driver (1.0.2176.0) installed because I can occasionally get it to download about 1/3 of the program.

It gets to about 1,005,xxx then tells me the file is corrupt.
I download that file (1.05) all over again so I'm thinkin it's not really corrupt at all and repeat the process but to no avail.

Anybody have an idea if this is the problem that DVDO mentions on the download site if the wrong drivers are used for the install with the
USB to SERIAL adapter?

THANKS

avrtRick

11-01-07, 04:30 AM

Dale,Josh.

What should the info screen of the VP50 show when a dolby digital is being passed through,it says 48khz.
Is this right?
before I changed my display(the banished was an 2005 LG the new is a 2006 Sony KDS60R2000) I would not get audio through the old tv but theres audio on the Sony.
the info display on my DVR says dolby.
the interconnects are HDMI
I did not think that the display im using could accept the dolby signal(I will post this question in another thread)
Are you able to give me some insight?
woulb be very helpful

ailean

11-01-07, 05:33 AM

Thanks Josh !

So what basically happens if I choose for example 1080p60 output in the format menu and then input a 50Hz signal with the framerate menu set to 50->50Hz locked ?

What's the recommended handling of this for multinorm countries ? Shall I use different output profiles to "hard" switch between 1080p50/60/24/48 or can I rely on the framerate menu ??

Thanks
Tobias

It depends on your display. My sharp LCD won't work with 1080p60 @ 50Hz so I have to have a 1080p60 profile with every framerate set to 60Hz and a 1080p50 profile with every framerate set to 50Hz.

Where as my sony PJ can handle 1080p60 @ 60,50,48 & 24, and with the fixes in 1.05 I only need one profile for the PJ.

Then use my pronto remote to switch profiles based on display in use and source in use.

Pharados

11-01-07, 02:56 PM

ailean

11-01-07, 05:58 PM

i need a solution how to connect 4 display to the vp50 and VP50pro.
i tried now two splitter both will not work.
cyp or altona 1:4 splitter has the problem that vhs, svhs and not connected inputs will not work and produce no picture.
digitus splitter will only work with identical displays.

both where very cheap.

is there a working solution may be not splitting but switching ? if possible with remote controlled selection. ?

Yes switching maybe best for displays that can't handle identical video formats. When I looked for one I found the Octava 3:2 good for my needs as I could put a PC on one of the inputs to bypass the VP.

I think the other one I spotted was a Gefen 1:4 DVI switch (so long as you don't need audio that should be okay).

There maybe other devices around by now but most I saw were splitters rather then a real switch.

NORLL

11-01-07, 06:46 PM

I flashed my VP50 a few days ago (to firmware 1.05). I tried the 3:2 pulldown reversal (1080i60 input -> 1080p24 output). I worked much better than before. I was unable to se any framedrops or stutters. There is still a tearing issue on the bottom of the screen. The lowest 20-25 pixelrows seem to be out of sync with the rest of the picture. This can easily be masked, but it would be better if this issue could be resolved by DVDO also. The tearing is visible with the following; 720p60 input -> 1080p24 output, 1080i60 input -> 1080p24 output, 1080p60 input -> 1080p24 output. I have not tested with 480i\p60 input as I live in a PAL country.

I have now sent in my VP50 for trade-in so I will not be able to try anything new on my unit. I have not tested if the VP50 Pro has the same issues yet...

avrtRick

11-01-07, 07:56 PM

gmanhdtv

11-01-07, 10:38 PM

Josh@dvdo

11-06-07, 01:45 PM

We have a new Beta version of software available:

iScan VP50 1.06 Beta Software (November 6, 2007)
Thank you for your interest in the iScan VP50 1.06 beta software. This software applies to iScan VP50 models only, and must not be loaded into HD, HD+, VP20 or VP30 units.

This pre-release Beta version of our software contains the following new features:

Horizontal and Vertical Shift available on all Component video inputs.

This pre-release Beta version of our software also addresses the following bugs:

1080p-24 Input to 1080p-24 Output
1080i-50 "Auto" Deinterlacing Mode Improved
Fixed problem with 48 Flashing Pixels at top of the image
In Advanced Mode, limit on scaler is now limited to 170MHz (previously 150MHz).
Discrete IR/Serial Commands for Deinterlacing Modes “Auto” and “Forced 3:2” correctly functioning
Corrected Audio Delay for 1080p-24/25/50Hz Input Signals

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/support/software_downloads/update/vp50.beta_agreement.1.06.php

gmanhdtv

11-06-07, 04:00 PM

Dale Adams

11-06-07, 04:05 PM

There is still a tearing issue on the bottom of the screen. The lowest 20-25 pixelrows seem to be out of sync with the rest of the picture. This can easily be masked, but it would be better if this issue could be resolved by DVDO also. The tearing is visible with the following; 720p60 input -> 1080p24 output, 1080i60 input -> 1080p24 output, 1080p60 input -> 1080p24 output.I am trying to reproduce this but am unable to so far. Could you provide more detailed information about your specific configurations, including input source, output format, frame rates (locked, unlocked), aspect ratios, etc.? If I can duplicate your setup I should be able to see the same thing you do. I can't fix it if I can't replicate the problem, though.

Thanks,

- Dale Adams

NORLL

11-06-07, 04:21 PM

I am trying to reproduce this but am unable to so far. Could you provide more detailed information about your specific configurations, including input source, output format, frame rates (locked, unlocked), aspect ratios, etc.? If I can duplicate your setup I should be able to see the same thing you do. I can't fix it if I can't replicate the problem, though.

Thanks,

- Dale Adams

No problem.

Input:
Sony BDP-S1E Blu-ray player running 1080p60 (HDMI)
Toshiba HD-E1 HD-DVD player running 1080i60 (HDMI)

Input source: HDMI 1-4

Output format: 1080p24 and 1080p60 (but 24p locked below) Both provide 1080p24 output.

Frame rates: 24 locked

I use a combination of input active aspect ratio and the output is set to 2,37:1 (i use a anamorphic setup with external lens). The problem might be something that is introduced in the aspect ratio conversion.

The signal also runs by a receiver. I have tried with both the Sony STR-DA5200ES and the Sony STR-DA5300ES. The projector is a Sony VPL-VW50. I do not have the same problems if I bypass the VP50 and run 1080p24 directly to the projector.

I have switched to the VP50 Pro, so I do not have the VP50 anymore. That is why I cannot check all the settings. I have not spotted the same problem on the VP50 Pro, but I will keep looking. I have not used it much yet.

Edit: I just found another thread about this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12147272#post12147272 I guess I have to recheck the system running 1080p24 directly to the projector.

Gino AUS

11-07-07, 12:22 AM

We have a new Beta version of software available:

iScan VP50 1.06 Beta Software (November 6, 2007)
...
In Advanced Mode, limit on scaler is now limited to 170MHz (previously 150MHz)
Does this fix that problem from 1.05 Beta where the frame rate locked modes don't support the higher pixel clocks?

docrog

11-07-07, 06:02 AM

adrogoin

11-07-07, 08:42 AM

Does this fix that problem from 1.05 Beta where the frame rate locked modes don't support the higher pixel clocks?

Yes, this has been fixed. I already tested it...

flyingvee

11-07-07, 08:55 AM

Josh,Dale

Today I made purchase of my DVR and after connecting and going through the channels I noticed a difference in timing(for the picture to appear on screen)than my HD STB and I am assuming that this is because the DVR puts out a native signal and it takes the VP50 two seconds to notice the signal has changed and for the VP50 to apply the appropriate processing and get a lock-on.

Thanks

essentially, yes. Same thing occurs with my stb (LG4200a, outputting NATIVE.) Whenever going from one channel @, say, 720p, to one at 1080i or 480i, yes, the VP50 needs a couple seconds to resynch. Nothing wrong, just a touch bothersome - especially for me - my crt pj really doesn't like this behavior.

Which brings me to this - Dale/Josh - is there anyway for the VP50 to keep some kind of constant default output, even a blue screen, while the VP50 is resynching? On my 980 Ultra, the picture sucks down to black, and there is an audible noise from my pj as the VP relocks (?) and sends out the new signal.

Gary Murrell

11-07-07, 09:32 AM

Which brings me to this - Dale/Josh - is there anyway for the VP50 to keep some kind of constant default output, even a blue screen, while the VP50 is resynching? On my 980 Ultra, the picture sucks down to black, and there is an audible noise from my pj as the VP relocks (?) and sends out the new signal.

the only way that is possible is to unlock the framerate output, this puts out a solid stable output, where as 60hz locked output resyncs when sources changed etc.

as a owner of a NEC projector I am bothered by the resyncs as well, click, black, click then image, however this is a small price for a 100% perfect framerate output, where as the 59.94 unlocked output may miss a frame here and there

-Gary

mdrew

11-07-07, 12:24 PM

After reading an earlier post by mdrew I have been very happily running film content from SD DVDs (1080i/60 in) to my Sony "Pearl" at 1080p/48. I would like to know if sending 1080p/72 to the PJ would add even further impact to the image. In fact, I can't seem to find out if the "Pearl" will accept that resolution; can anyone help me with this? Lastly, if I should be successfully able to send Blu-Ray at 1080p/24 in from my PS3 & out with the newest VP50 v1.06, is there any reason to send EITHER 48 or 72 out to the PJ when using Blu-Ray content??? Thanks!

Glad the 48 output worked for you….

Your best bet is to simply try 1080P/48 to your projector and see if you like it. I have both my PS3 and A35 set to input 1080P/24 to my VP50 with the output set to 1080P/48. The image is beautiful, smooth, stutter free and never drops frames. Out of curiosity, I experimented a little with the A35 yesterday because I’ve been toying with the idea of getting rid of the VP and just running the BR / HD machines to my display. I ran the A35 directly to my projector (pany 1000U) with a 1080P/24 output and then later through the VP50 with a 1080P/48 output. As hard as I wanted to convince myself that there was no difference and that I should get rid of the VP (and get just a little further out of CC debt), the image from the VP was better. Enough for me to keep it.

If DVDO would just fix the damn audio problem (will not lock onto different audio formats as they change), they’d have quite a product on their hands. It’s really quite irritating to have to switch inputs back and forth to get the VP to lock onto the new format.

ailean

11-07-07, 02:04 PM

After reading an earlier post by mdrew I have been very happily running film content from SD DVDs (1080i/60 in) to my Sony "Pearl" at 1080p/48. I would like to know if sending 1080p/72 to the PJ would add even further impact to the image. In fact, I can't seem to find out if the "Pearl" will accept that resolution; can anyone help me with this? Lastly, if I should be successfully able to send Blu-Ray at 1080p/24 in from my PS3 & out with the newest VP50 v1.06, is there any reason to send EITHER 48 or 72 out to the PJ when using Blu-Ray content??? Thanks!

With 1.05 (and 1.06 I hope ;) ) you can use 1080i60/1080p24 into the VP50 and 1080p24 out to the pearl. This works perfectly on mine now, previously I had to use the p48 trick to get it to work but that bug is now fixed.

You shouldn't see anything different now between 24/48/72 as the pearl is a digital projector (you get flicker with CRT pjs so 72hz is better). In fact I believe the pearl is meant to internally convert 24p input into 96Hz for projection but again being digital it shouldn't make a differance (displays which insert black frames or blend to create new frames will make a differance above 24hz but the pearl doesn't do either).

jowicrt

11-07-07, 02:44 PM

-Hitman-

11-07-07, 04:31 PM

Axel

11-07-07, 04:33 PM

Just installed 1.06, and the first thing i noticed was that all my settings were gone. Not a big problem for me, but you are warned :) After the update, my VP50 was in standard user mode, so you might have to set it up from scratch.

Hmm, from which version did you upgrade from? I thought this loosing setting issue was fixed in an earlier rev. already.
_____
Axel

jowicrt

11-07-07, 05:05 PM

Upgraded from 1.05 beta 2 release... ;)

Dale Adams

11-07-07, 05:25 PM

Edit: I just found another thread about this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12147272#post12147272 I guess I have to recheck the system running 1080p24 directly to the projector.I'm still unable to duplicate the tearing problem you're seeing, even when using the output aspect ratio you are and with a variety of input aspect ratios. I don't have the exact 1080p24 sources you do, though, although I wouldn't think that's the problem. Have you had a chance to recheck things with your projector?

- Dale Adams

oink

11-08-07, 01:34 AM

Upgraded to 1.06....no problem.
Lost previous settings, not a big deal.

Many have complained about DVDO FW downloaded via the serial port, but it is painless IMO (admittedly the USB bus is much larger).

Gino AUS

11-08-07, 01:47 AM

Yes, this has been fixed. I already tested it...

Awesome... thanks for that. Looks like I'm upgrading tonight then :)

mdrew

11-08-07, 02:23 PM

Josh@dvdo

11-08-07, 02:27 PM

Dale, (or anyone who can answer)

I’ve been messing around with output settings again….

I’m using a PS3 for B/R and a Toshiba A35 for HD and have both set up to output 1080P/24. I was under the impression that both of these machines were pulling the native 1080P/24 video data of the disks, but am beginning to wonder if that is true or not. For one, if it is a native progressive output, then why can I enable the Prep function?? Secondly, why is the color space for the A35 4:2:2 and the color space for the PS3 4:4:4?? My Oppo 981 with SDI (via Gary) outputs a 4:2:2 color space.

PReP should not be allowed with a 1080p-24 input signal. This is a bug that will be resolved in a forthcoming release. Color space is a different thing and this depends on the source. With the Oppo 970 (over HDMI) for example you can select in the menu whether or not you would like RGB 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:4:4. It seems like the PS3 prefers YCbCr 4:4:4 to YCbCr 4:2:2...

mdrew

11-08-07, 03:34 PM

Thanks Josh.

ailean

11-08-07, 07:39 PM

PReP should not be allowed with a 1080p-24 input signal. This is a bug that will be resolved in a forthcoming release. Color space is a different thing and this depends on the source. With the Oppo 970 (over HDMI) for example you can select in the menu whether or not you would like RGB 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:4:4. It seems like the PS3 prefers YCbCr 4:4:4 to YCbCr 4:2:2...

There's also the chance that the player is internally converting 1080i60 from the decoder into 1080p24 rather then reading direct. I think most of the early mpeg4 decoder chips used in players/dvrs could only output 1080i so a 2nd scaler chip had to be added to convert that to 1080p so they could add the 1080p sticker to the box. :)

I've not seen a definate list of which players do which but chances are as the PS3 is mostly software it maybe 1080p24 direct but with colour space conversion (just no deinterlacing/reinterlacing or scaling) :confused:

avrtRick

11-08-07, 09:44 PM

Josh,(or anyone)

Last night Iwas going through the settings of my VP50 and in doing so I found some things that I really dont understand and was wondering if this is the reason that I have an underscan value of 27.

the settings are as follows
H-shift@147
H-size@1920
H-front@529
H-sync@44
H-back@147
V-shift@36
V-size@1080
V-front@4
V-sync@5
V-back@36

Now,I will say that I know what some of these do,but should they be this erratic.
And is this why I had to put the underscan value at 27 to fit the screen.?
Can anyone tell me what to do about this,any help appreciated
Or should I do a hard reset(will that help)

Dale Adams

11-08-07, 10:04 PM

Last night Iwas going through the settings of my VP50 and in doing so I found some things that I really dont understand and was wondering if this is the reason that I have an underscan value of 27.

the settings are as follows
H-shift@147
H-size@1920
H-front@529
H-sync@44
H-back@147
V-shift@36
V-size@1080
V-front@4
V-sync@5
V-back@36

Now,I will say that I know what some of these do,but should they be this erratic.
And is this why I had to put the underscan value at 27 to fit the screen.?
Can anyone tell me what to do about this,any help appreciatedI don't know what you mean by "erratic". What were you expecting?

The timing numbers you give above are almost exactly the standard 1080p50 format values. The only difference is that the horizontal front porch is 1 clock too wide and the horizontal back porch is 1 clock too narrow. (You may have done this by using the horizontal shift control.) That's so close to the standard timing that I wouldn't think many displays would even know the difference. (Also note that I'm assuming here that you're aiming for a 1080p50 output.)

If you're seeing a lot of overscan that requires the VP50's underscan control to be set fairly high, then it's most likely a matter of your display overscanning by a lot. Unfortunately, it's not that unusual to see overscan in most displays, and that's one reason why the VP50's underscan control is there in the first place - i.e., to correct for this. If the underscan fixes the display's overscanning, then I don't think it's a problem. The biggest issue I can see is that a 1080p or 1080i source will be down-scaled to fit the active image size, so you may lose just a bit of resolution. That wouldn't be a problem for an SD or 720p resolution source, though.

- Dale Adams

avrtRick

11-08-07, 10:28 PM

Thanks for the info Dale,

just wanted to know if the settings were supposed to be that way.
Its great to have you(Dale&Josh) advice on such things
lucky for me I didnt hard reset
And to be honest,the only thing I expected, was to have a great picture(and I do,and very happy)
Thanks again Dale

TrevorS

11-09-07, 02:24 AM

Hi,

I plan to use a VP50 to receive 1080i60 HDMI from both BD and HD DVD, and have the VP50 deliver 1080p60 or 1080p24 HDMI (automatic IVTC of the p24 from film sourced BD and HD DVD) with either a Sanyo PLV-Z2000 or a Panasonic PT-AE2000U projector (still trying to decide which projector to go with :confused:.)

Does this mode of VP50 operation work correctly with these two projectors?

Thanks -- Trevor

avrtRick

11-09-07, 03:20 AM

Another question that might seem trivial(but I have to ask)

where should the calibrating process if everything is connected to the VP50?
I have tried to calibrate my display(sony KDS60R2000)using the VP's brightness/contrast test pattern,but cannot get it right.
should I be using the displays controls(as I have been)or the VP's controls?
And how do I calibrate my DVR?
Should I record the early morning test pattern(Ive seen someone post something like that)to do this.
I would get my Avspecialist to do this but I would like to save that $600 if I can
(also,I have to move first and that wont be for at least six months,and I dont want to wait that long)
Also, I live in a pal country so the "HUE"control does not apply

Im sorry for what may seem a stupid set of questions but I find the calibration issue by far the hardest and most complex task

any help would be most appreciated
Thanks in advance

Gino AUS

11-09-07, 07:30 AM

I've updated to 1.06 but pixel clock still seems limited to 165Mhz?? Was the 170Mhz a typo?

baddgsx

11-09-07, 11:29 AM

For the VP50 , how do I find out what FTDI USB-to-serial driver I have installed already. I want to do the software install when mine comes in.

Note: this only applies to adapters with the FTDI chip-set. Can someone help me understand this better. Ive done firmware upgrades but this seems alittle trickier. Thanx Chris

Pharados

11-09-07, 12:03 PM

how the image shift for components works ? is not selectable at my vp50 ?

where are the codes for the fixed deinterlacing modes ? are the already in the gorden tool ?

avrtRick

11-09-07, 11:34 PM

Just updated to v1.06:D
Found it less painless that I thought it would be.(not to good on a pc)
It worried the hell out of me but thankfully it went without a problem

avrtRick

11-09-07, 11:59 PM

How do you get access to the "image shift"controls

cinema mad

11-10-07, 01:53 AM

I've updated to 1.06 but pixel clock still seems limited to 165Mhz?? Was the 170Mhz a typo?Gino, according to DVDO's web site, The VP50 must be put into advanced mode in the configuration menu, under (user mode) to activate the 170MHZ mode....

Stevie C

11-10-07, 07:37 AM

Gino AUS

11-10-07, 07:49 AM

Gino, according to DVDO's web site, The VP50 must be put into advanced mode in the configuration menu, under (user mode) to activate the 170MHZ mode....
I always use advanced mode ;)

Seriously though, adjusting the porches and frame rates etc will only allow me to go to 165Mhz but no higher.

Dale Adams

11-10-07, 09:20 AM

Do you have to register to get the 1.06 beta? I have left my email, but cannot seem to find the link to download? Am I just blind or do I need to register or is the Download only for a selected few?I just went to the ABT website and it was right there:

http://www.anchorbaytech.com/support/software_downloads/vp.php

I believe you do have to give them some very brief information to download a beta (name, email address, country, display type), but that's about it.

- Dale Adams

Pharados

11-10-07, 10:05 AM

where are the discrete codes for the deinterlaced fix ?
and how is the imiga shift accessible for component?

edfowler

11-10-07, 01:44 PM

I wonder if anyone else has experienced this with the update..

It looks like I've lost a ton of resolution with the new update. I've gone through and reset all of the values to what I had before but it looks horrible.

24hz is smoooth now, but I may go back if I cannot get it to look better.

ed

Dale Adams

11-10-07, 02:50 PM

It looks like I've lost a ton of resolution with the new update. I've gone through and reset all of the values to what I had before but it looks horrible.Can you provide a specific case where you notice a problem? If so, I'll try and take a look at it to see if I can see anything wrong.

- Dale Adams

edfowler

11-10-07, 03:55 PM

I appreciate your response alot Dale, I don't have a specific case. In general it all looks like I went from 720p to 480i (kind of a drastic overstatement).
Instead of everything looking smooth and detailed, it looks crushed and grainy.

Usually, the picture looks much better after a firmware update. Not this time.

I know it is hard to diagnose and troubleshoot what seems to be an emotional reaction rather than a measurable observation.

I thought that maybe I reset my gamma incorrectly, but none of the gamma settings I input look quite right.

thanks

ed

AndyN

11-10-07, 04:04 PM

I lost all settings with 1.06 also, went from 1.0. No big deal. But to all having troubles, no offense intended, but just make sure you check on all the prior settings. Mine factory defaulted to non-advanced mode. My aspect ratio stuff along with sharpness, etc were also all reset so this MAY have some impact on the piture you're getting.

flyingvee

11-10-07, 04:14 PM

Yikes - that losing settings alone seems like a step backwards; I was quite happy when ABT finally figured out a way to maintain all settings during an upgrade. Keep us updated, Ed - I was looking forward to the upgrade, but not if it's a step backwards...mine's still working nicely, I can wait for Beta.c

edfowler

11-10-07, 04:44 PM

I wrote down all my settings except for the gamma which I was certain was only 1.1.

I suspect that the thing that changed is that it is recognizing the source as 1080p24 correctly. but it still doesn't make sense cause my directv looks worse too, and it is 1080i60.

I'll post what I find out. It would be rude to just drop in and say the update nuked my system and never report back.

It does do 1080p24 better. The dropped frames are gone and it is a lot smoother.

flyingvee, I've seen you here before but never mentioned that I'm from Springville, IA.

avrtRick

11-10-07, 06:08 PM

edfowler

11-10-07, 06:28 PM

Its still like that.

In a way its good to know that it is happening to others, maybe it is something that dvdo can fix

Rick, did you go back to 1.04 then?

avrtRick

11-10-07, 06:46 PM

Not at the moment.
Today the PQ seems to be better than yesterday(I watched "A bugs life and it looked fantastic)
But as soon as I done the update, the picture went really blocky and unwatchable(SD&HD was so bad I thought what did I do wrong)

avrtRick

11-10-07, 07:02 PM

I going to wait maybe a couple of days to see what happens(doing the update made me feel sick with worry)

edfowler

11-10-07, 07:44 PM

I'm going to go back. The picture was beautiful before.

It is a beta update after all. If DVDO can make the picture look as good as it did before with the smooth 24hz thing it will be excellent.

edfowler

11-10-07, 07:46 PM

Its just SUCH a PITA disconnecting my VP-50 and carrying it downstairs to the XP machine with the antique serial port.

I wonder if DVDO will ever have a decent reliable usb update thing

edfowler

11-10-07, 07:49 PM

that can be used with Vista that is

avrtRick

11-10-07, 08:11 PM

Im a little scepticle at this point,
Some things seem better,and some worse.(hard to specify)
But in saying that,Im not that experienced as 99% of the people that own the VP50.
Also,my display needs calibrating,so that could also be a part of the problem.
SD tv looks better today though

avrtRick

11-10-07, 08:13 PM

Can you tell me what actually happened to your PQ
Did it go blocky and did it loose its snap(crisp clean look)

avrtRick

11-10-07, 08:20 PM

that can be used with Vista that is

That would be easier:)

avrtRick

11-10-07, 08:25 PM

I've seen a couple of posts regarding access to the image shift controls.
no light on this yet

edfowler

11-10-07, 08:45 PM

Can you tell me what actually happened to your PQ
Did it go blocky and did it loose its snap(crisp clean look)

that would be a fairly accurate description.

I've had my display calibrated by the very best. I would say it is like the difference between that and the first set up job I did when I got my first crt:D

I would say it was like:

-resolution was cut in half
-all blacks got crushed
-lost 90% of the detail I enjoyed before
-picture became very soft

other than that it was good:rolleyes:

avrtRick

11-10-07, 09:15 PM

When you go back to v1.04 can you post your findings(if its the same as it was,with v1.04)
Plus(A little off topic)Ive been quoted $600 for calibration,would that be well spent?
(Ive tried so many times to do this but no success)

edfowler

11-10-07, 09:54 PM

Wow, 1.04 looks incredible.

DVDO please email me when you get 1.06 fixed.

1.04 looks sharper and crisper now. It always seems to be a lot better after a firmware change. Its like a bunch of extra crap gets washed away leaving a fresh clean picture.

ed

avrtRick

11-10-07, 10:16 PM

I might have to change back myself(when I work up the courage)

Interesting to see if anyone else has these issues with that F/W
Can you please post if you do!!

avrtRick

11-10-07, 10:24 PM

Gino,

Hi,

Can you tell me what your picture quality is like after the v1.06F/W

Dale,
Any reason to why this has happened

avrtRick

11-10-07, 10:31 PM

Do you have to have a certain signal presant for the "image shift" controls to become usable(maybe 720 or higher)

Rich51567

11-11-07, 07:45 AM

Gino,

Hi,

Can you tell me what your picture quality is like after the v1.06F/W

Before May 07 this box needed work. After the May 07 update (1.04?) My entire setup was good. 1.05 was difficult to update (kept getting errors for some reason) by PQ was still good. 1.06 went off with no worries and all is still good. If I remember correctly, I had to input all my settings after most of these updates. Not too bad really. I only have a PS3, H20-100 Directv box and a combo DVD player in my main theater going to a Sony Pearl VPL-VW50 through the VP-50 and audio to a complete Citation 5.0 audio processor. In all honesty, I'm not really asking alot of the VP-50.....less than most people seem to be....perhaps that is the key...don't ask this thing to give over the top results from older source equipment or to an older PJ???

edfowler

11-11-07, 09:28 AM

...so expecting a firmware update to actually improve performance instead of degrade it is asking too much?

flyingvee

11-11-07, 12:45 PM

...so expecting a firmware update to actually improve performance instead of degrade it is asking too much?

not to sound like an ABT cheerleader (I've been accused of the opposite in several other threads,:p) but in this case, it is a beta, and at least for DVDO, an amazingly rapid beta release.

Personally, I'm glad you volunteered to be a guinea pig for it;;) - you have saved me a bunch of time - my box is next to my antique computer with serial port, so it isn't a huge deal to upgrade, but I too have had mine lock on upgrade enough times to make it a traumatizing experience.

But in this case, it looks like DVDO can't really win - in the past, updates have been few and far between; but in every case I can recall, the beta was usually rolled into production without changes. But many have been bemoaning the fact that another VP manufacturer releases a beta every week, while DVDO only does it occasionally. I think we, the consumer/owner of the VP50s, need to decide which we want. -- at least if I worked out there, that is the mantra I'd be repeating.

Dale Adams

11-11-07, 01:04 PM

flyingvee

11-11-07, 02:04 PM

Thank-you Dale. If no one else has told you today, you're a godsend. Really. :)

mlaurance

11-11-07, 02:24 PM

I'm new to this forum and have a question to see if anyone else has experienced what I am seeing after upgrading my FW from V1.00 to V1.04. After upgrading I occasionally get a blocking = unwatchable video when turning the power on. The fix is to reset to the factory default and after doing so the processor performs normally. This is intermittent and doesn't happen consistently. However, its a pain to have to go through and setup all of the settings everytime this happens. Thanks, Mark

Dale Adams

11-11-07, 03:03 PM

I'm new to this forum and have a question to see if anyone else has experienced what I am seeing after upgrading my FW from V1.00 to V1.04. After upgrading I occasionally get a blocking = unwatchable video when turning the power on.By "blocking" do you mean the video signal itself is blocked somehow and doesn't appear, or that the video is visible but appears blocky? Also, is there some specific case where this happens (e.g., only 480i or 1080i, or only HDMI but not analog inputs) or is it random and unpredictable? The more information you can provide with respect to what happens and under what circumstances it happens, the sooner the problem can be replicated and fixed.

- Dale Adams

mlaurance

11-11-07, 03:33 PM

Hi Dale,
Thanks for the quick reply. I'll try to describe the "blocking" in more detail. The video appears and looks "blocky". It looks like large square digital artifacts that for lack of a better description look like pixelation where the pixels and other higher frequency digital artifacts are grouped in. It occurs on all of the inputs I am using, HDMI1 (1080i), COMP1 (480P), COMP2 (480P). I have PReP implemented on COMP1 and COMP2. My output is set to 1080P running to a JVC-RS1. The occurrence is random and happens when I start up the projector and scalar. The VP50 can go for several days between occurrences or sometimes it occurs on consecutive days. I've tried successive power cycles and the problem did not occur. I checked all of the input/output settings and they appear to be preserved. Please let me know if you need more detailed information and I can get into the menus and retrieve any settings that you feel important.
Thanks,
Mark

edfowler

11-11-07, 06:32 PM

thanks for checking Dale.

I experienced the problems I had on every hdmi input.
One input was 1080i60 and the other was 1080p24.
Thing was that, even though it was outputting 720p72, it looked more like it was outputting 480i

thanks

ed

Slonk

11-11-07, 07:50 PM

avrtRick

11-11-07, 07:53 PM

Thanks Dale,

I didnt think I was seeing things:D

avrtRick

11-11-07, 08:06 PM

It happens on the following(in my setup)

576p hdmi
720p hdmi
1080i hdmi
output set to 1080p
DVD via component looks great still(I know you said problem may be HDMI receiver chip)

avrtRick

11-11-07, 09:34 PM

Dale,

Also,on four seperate occasions I have noticed "sparkles"after the v1.06 f/w which I have not seen before(dont really know how to elaborate,but sparkles is exactly what they look like.

oink

11-12-07, 01:22 AM

Installed 1.06, no problems with HDMI inputs so far.
Panny BD10 Blu-Ray player outputting 1080i.
Dish Network VIP211 HD outputting 1080i.
VP50 scaling to 720p@60.
Looks terrific.

avrtRick

11-12-07, 04:24 AM

Oink,

do you know how to access "image shift" controls(im consistant):D

avrtRick

11-12-07, 05:28 AM

Dale,
I cannot get 60hz sync with my display with 1.06.:confused:
Nor can I select "unlock 59.96"
My tv is a Sony KDS60R2000
I cant get it to go past 52.7hz
Why is this happening?:mad:
And for anyone that wants to know(just in case) "image shift"is availible with 1080i signal:D

Dale,

I really need to be able to output 60hz to my display(I could before) can you help me with this please.

avrtRick

11-12-07, 05:32 AM

Another,

I could not adjust past 55.56hz(it just would not go any higher)

avrtRick

11-12-07, 08:15 AM

Another,

I could not adjust past 55.56hz(it just would not go any higher)

The VP

-Hitman-

11-12-07, 08:21 AM

Dale,

Also,on four seperate occasions I have noticed "sparkles"after the v1.06 f/w which I have not seen before(dont really know how to elaborate,but sparkles is exactly what they look like.

This is not 1.06 dependant as i have seen the white sparklies problem with 1.01 - 1.06 firmwares.

They also seem to be mainly on light colours (EG. ginger hair) and on edges (of peoples faces)

I have found that they can deminish after time but can occasionally re-appear and seems to be caused by HDMI video/handshake comms from the VP to the display, also evident using HDMI-DVI, analogue-non present.

Removing the HDMI feed and reconnecting + reboot can also help remove them.

Dale,

Can you explain why this happens also and any idea's on permanent removal?

TIA

Dale Adams

11-12-07, 09:54 AM

I cannot get 60hz sync with my display with 1.06.:confused:
Nor can I select "unlock 59.96"
My tv is a Sony KDS60R2000
I cant get it to go past 52.7hz
Why is this happening?Let me guess - you have the 1080p50 output format selected, right? The pixel clock rate required for that format to go to 60 Hz exceeds the VP50's capabilities. If you want to run 1080p at 60 Hz, use the 1080p60 format as it has fewer clocks per line.

A suggestion: In the future when you post a question, note that it helps to provide a little context. The more information you provide, the less guessing I or someone else has to do and the more likely you are to get an answer.

- Dale Adams

DonoMan

11-12-07, 09:58 AM

Hey guys, what's the easiest way for me to stretch letterbox to 16:9 on this thing? I was doing it by hitting aspect on the remote and changing both of the aspect ratio options (frame and the other one). Then I found that I can hit the display profiles button (I think that's what it is) on the remote and select the relevant line. Can I do it discretely?

Dale Adams

11-12-07, 10:02 AM

This is not 1.06 dependant as i have seen the white sparklies problem with 1.01 - 1.06 firmwares.

They also seem to be mainly on light colours (EG. ginger hair) and on edges (of peoples faces)

I have found that they can deminish after time but can occasionally re-appear and seems to be caused by HDMI video/handshake comms from the VP to the display, also evident using HDMI-DVI, analogue-non present.I have not observed this myself on any of those specific releases. What you describe sounds like problems I've seen in the past with poor DVI or HDMI connections or cables. If you've seen this problem on a number of firmware versions then the problem may well be an HDMI cable. If you see it on all sources, then it would be the cable connected to the VP50's output. If it's just on one source then it's most likely that particular cable.

One way to determine if this is the problem is to lower the resolution of the video signal. For instance, if the problem is thought to be the on the VP50 output and you're sending the display a 1080p signal, try lowering that to something like 1080i or 720p as a test. If the sparkles go away then you likely have a cable problem. If possible, try a different cable and see if the problem is fixed. You may also want to just try unplugging and re-plugging the connectors (or even wiggling them a bit) to see if that affects the problem.

While it's possible that the problem is in the VP50, it's more likely to be a cable/connection problem.

- Dale Adams

Dale Adams

11-12-07, 10:11 AM

I'll try to describe the "blocking" in more detail. The video appears and looks "blocky". It looks like large square digital artifacts that for lack of a better description look like pixelation where the pixels and other higher frequency digital artifacts are grouped in. It occurs on all of the inputs I am using, HDMI1 (1080i), COMP1 (480P), COMP2 (480P). I have PReP implemented on COMP1 and COMP2. My output is set to 1080P running to a JVC-RS1. The occurrence is random and happens when I start up the projector and scalar.I've never seen this type of artifact myself outside of the 'normal' sources like MPEG compression artifacts. One possibility is that you have the VP50's settings such that this type of compression artifact is exaggerated. The sharpness control in particular might do this. What are your picture control settings on the inputs where you see the problem? Also, what about your display's settings?

However, if your settings are all at or close to the nominal values then that probably isn't the cause. The fact that you're seeing it on multiple sources, multiple input formats, and with PReP on and off suggests that it could be a VP50 problem such as an intermittent hardware fault of some type. You might want to try contacting DVDO tech support and see if they can help.

- Dale Adams

Gary J

11-12-07, 10:50 AM

A suggestion: In the future when you post a question, note that it helps to provide a little context. The more information you provide, the less guessing I or someone else has to do and the more likely you are to get an answer.

- Dale Adams

And it beats a post blitz. ;)

-Hitman-

11-12-07, 10:56 AM

I have not observed this myself on any of those specific releases. What you describe sounds like problems I've seen in the past with poor DVI or HDMI connections or cables. If you've seen this problem on a number of firmware versions then the problem may well be an HDMI cable. If you see it on all sources, then it would be the cable connected to the VP50's output. If it's just on one source then it's most likely that particular cable.

One way to determine if this is the problem is to lower the resolution of the video signal. For instance, if the problem is thought to be the on the VP50 output and you're sending the display a 1080p signal, try lowering that to something like 1080i or 720p as a test. If the sparkles go away then you likely have a cable problem. If possible, try a different cable and see if the problem is fixed. You may also want to just try unplugging and re-plugging the connectors (or even wiggling them a bit) to see if that affects the problem.

While it's possible that the problem is in the VP50, it's more likely to be a cable/connection problem.

- Dale Adams

Thanks for the response Dale, input appreciated as always,

The output was at 1366x768 mapped to a Panasonic 50PHD8 via DVI input, cable used - monster dvi400 but an unknown make HDMI-DVI dongle (used at the VP output).

All source inputs are connected HDMI with Mark Grant G1080 (1080P rated) HDMI-HDMI cables, sparklies seen with all source inputs.

So it could suggest the problem is with the dongle used or the dvi400 but i wanted to be sure as i was running at much less than 1080P output.

I have now sold my PHD8 display due to currently about to move house, new house - fixer upper and so won't have a new display for around 2 months but as the Sparklies problem i'd seen was mentioned, thought i should bring up my experience of this problem to see if at all it could be the VP.

What do you think could it still be a cable problem even though the output is not high?

Thanks!

Dale Adams

11-12-07, 11:14 AM

What do you think could it still be a cable problem even though the output is not high?This sort of problem is more likely the higher the output pixel clock rate. 1080p is typically the worst, but I've seen it on formats with lower clock rates as well (even 720p and 1080i). Try dropping the output resolution to 480p and see if it goes away. Yes, I know it will look like crap. But it's just an experiment after all. And think how big those sparkles will be! :D

- Dale Adams

-Hitman-

11-12-07, 03:52 PM

This sort of problem is more likely the higher the output pixel clock rate. 1080p is typically the worst, but I've seen it on formats with lower clock rates as well (even 720p and 1080i). Try dropping the output resolution to 480p and see if it goes away. Yes, I know it will look like crap. But it's just an experiment after all. And think how big those sparkles will be! :D

- Dale Adams

Cheers Dale:)

I've unfortunately had to sell my display (as above), so will have to put it on hold, so at the moment i'm downgraded to a 32" CRT but i see what you mean by 480 looking crap:D

Abbas

11-12-07, 04:08 PM

mlaurance

11-12-07, 04:09 PM

I've never seen this type of artifact myself outside of the 'normal' sources like MPEG compression artifacts. One possibility is that you have the VP50's settings such that this type of compression artifact is exaggerated. The sharpness control in particular might do this. What are your picture control settings on the inputs where you see the problem? Also, what about your display's settings?

However, if your settings are all at or close to the nominal values then that probably isn't the cause. The fact that you're seeing it on multiple sources, multiple input formats, and with PReP on and off suggests that it could be a VP50 problem such as an intermittent hardware fault of some type. You might want to try contacting DVDO tech support and see if they can help.

- Dale Adams
Thanks for the input. I checked my Picture Control settings and they are all nominal. I tend to agree that there may be an intermittent HW problem. The next time this occurs I will get a acreen shot and contact Tech Support. Thanks again for your help and suggestions.

-Mark Laurance

choddo2006

11-17-07, 06:39 PM

Can the VP50 actually degrade the picture quality?

I took my VP50 over to my brother-in-law's house. He had just bought a 52" Shard LCD that accepts 1080p input. I connected the VP50 in between the TV and the Comcast cable box. I set the output on the VP50 to 1080p60 out.

Both SD and HD were severely degraded. I was really taken back on the results. Any ideas?

It certainly can if it's not configured right. What was the output from the comcast box? And was the Sharp accepting native resolution or was it rescaling everything again?

AndyN

11-17-07, 07:55 PM

I also have a couple of Sharp LCD's adn one thing to consider is the way it displays the picture. My VP50 is connected to my PJ but I'd be shocked that it would degrade the picture to the Sharp. Make sure the Sharp is not resizing. Make sure it's set to Dot by Dot. Just a thought.

Abbas

11-17-07, 08:08 PM

It certainly can if it's not configured right. What was the output from the comcast box? And was the Sharp accepting native resolution or was it rescaling everything again?

You cant set the output the Comcast so I assume everything is internally set to native. The sharp was setup for dot to dot. I checked everything over at least twice over a 2 day period.

baddgsx

11-18-07, 09:27 AM

I received it the other day and did the new firmware 1.06.

My setup is
display---jvc hd70fh96---takes in 1080i max through hdmi(outputs 1080p)
ps3---for dvds /bluray/games
xbox 360---games
comcast DVR----1080i
denon 4306 reciever

I dont get sound out through hdmi to the reciever! Is there a setting i have to do on the DVDO to allow sound to pass to the reciever?

big_marcelo

11-18-07, 10:10 AM

baddgsx

11-18-07, 11:59 AM

Nice, i havent tried that yet. Thanx for the info.

editman

11-19-07, 08:12 AM

I'm starting to use Display profiles to change aspect ratios which is so nice once you've set all the profiles up.

I would hate to loose every setting if moving on to the 1.06. I currently have the 1.05 and all is fine except one thing. But this was in the 1.04 and might be my plasma telly.

To get a smooth look on 60hz movies I have the output set to 720p60 and framerate set to 60hz->lock->72hz. I've tried 24 and 48hz but the same result. The image is fine except it twitches now and then. Mostly when the camera is tilting/paning but not all times. What could it be? It's hard to tell but it seams only be part of the image that twitches.

Axel

11-19-07, 03:32 PM

mskreis

11-19-07, 08:31 PM

With the most recent 2.7 f/w release the XA2 now allows to output bitstream/High Bit Rate audio via HDMI so a receiver can do the audio processing. I was wondering if this still works with a VP50 tied into the signal chain, e.g. in my case: XA2=>VP50=>Denon 4308=>Ruby.

TIA!
____
Axel

That scheme won't work since the VP50 is not an HDMI 1.3 device. My current scheme is: XA2 ->Denon 4308 ->RS1. I've only got 2 devices connected to my VP50 (HR20-700 and Xbox 360) and it is now connected to one of the HDMI inputs on my 4308.

Axel

11-19-07, 10:18 PM

That scheme won't work since the VP50 is not an HDMI 1.3 device. My current scheme is: XA2 ->Denon 4308 ->RS1. I've only got 2 devices connected to my VP50 (HR20-700 and Xbox 360) and it is now connected to one of the HDMI inputs on my 4308.

Thanks mskreis, that's what I thought....
____
Axel

aaronwt

11-19-07, 11:46 PM

That scheme won't work since the VP50 is not an HDMI 1.3 device. My current scheme is: XA2 ->Denon 4308 ->RS1. I've only got 2 devices connected to my VP50 (HR20-700 and Xbox 360) and it is now connected to one of the HDMI inputs on my 4308.

It sounds like a VP50 pro would be a worthwhile upgrade for you.

Axel

11-20-07, 07:46 AM

It sounds like a VP50 pro would be a worthwhile upgrade for you.

...either that or I simply switch the signal chain around: 1. Denon, 2. VP50. Downside is that I can no longer use the VP50's Auto Priority function for the inputs - my favorite :(.

Axel

gmanhdtv

11-20-07, 08:22 AM

...either that or I simply switch the signal chain around: 1. Denon, 2. VP50. Downside is that I can no longer use the VP50's Auto Priority function for the inputs - my favorite :(.

Axel

Can't you use a HDMI spliiter for the connected component? Yes adds expense but send one HDMI to the receiver and one to the VP50 for video.

flyingvee

11-20-07, 08:43 AM

It sounds like a VP50 pro would be a worthwhile upgrade for you.

Worth $1500? :eek: Maybe - depends on how much one is willing to pay for simplicity in connections. I can do a lot of workarounds for that kind of money.

Axel

11-20-07, 10:27 AM

Can't you use a HDMI spliiter for the connected component? Yes adds expense but send one HDMI to the receiver and one to the VP50 for video.

I am not clear what I would gain from this setup.
On the downside, I would need a splitter for each component (e.g. Blu-Ray player) and I could still not use the Auto Priority function.
____
Axel

Axel

11-20-07, 10:29 AM

Worth $1500? :eek: Maybe - depends on how much one is willing to pay for simplicity in connections. I can do a lot of workarounds for that kind of money.

Same thinking here.... Too little added value for too much extra $$$.

______
Axel

TrevorS

11-20-07, 05:40 PM

Can't you use a HDMI spliiter for the connected component? Yes adds expense but send one HDMI to the receiver and one to the VP50 for video.

As long as the splitter passes on the multichannel audio and bitstream. I bought a Gefen 1x2 splitter a year plus ago and tried that configuration, but the audio was blocked. It turns out the splitter peels off the audio and kicks it out a Toslink port (:eek:!). Moving the splitter to the receiver output solved the problem!

Gard

11-21-07, 01:53 AM

My solution is to route the HD-sound formats to the receiver and set the receiver to passthrought. Can't see any PQ loss. Using 1080i, you shouldn't get any lipsync problems.

TrevorS

11-21-07, 01:21 PM

Having just installed an iScan VP50, I've spent the last couple evenings completing installation and calibration. Ran into something last night that I'm not sure how to interpret. (Firmware 1.04.)

The VP50 receives three inputs, 480i component direct from the player, 480i SVideo frrom the output of my receiver, and HDMI that can be either 1080i/60 or 480i (also from the output of the receiver.) The VP50 output is 1080i/60.

The receiver (Pioneer VSX-82TXS) includes processing for both upscaling and conversion of other video formats (composite, etc) to HDMI. When I select the HDMI output to be a conversion from 480i SVideo (SVideo being the only other video signal the receiver sees), the VP50 generally fails to lock to the HDMI signal (no picture), be it 1080i or 480i. As long as the HDMI signal is sourced from an HDMI source, there is no problem.

Any idea what might be going on here? Any suggested fixes? (The identical HDMI output is accepted without issues by my Sony XBR800 HDTV -- fed by a Gefen splitter that drives both.)

Thanks -- Trevor

baddgsx

11-21-07, 02:30 PM

TrevorS

11-21-07, 09:55 PM

The way i read ur post is that u have it connected this way.
Source(480i)--> Reciever ---> VP50 (1080i 60) ---> display Is this how u have it connected?

or do u have it like this?
Source(480i)---> VP50-----> Reciever---> display

Configuration one! 480i SVideo source to receiver (which converts to either 480i HDMI or 1080i HDMI) to HDMI splitter to VP50 (which then outputs 1080i.) In this scenario, the VP50 generally fails to produce a picture regardless of the HDMI resolution.

baddgsx

11-22-07, 07:12 AM

Configuration one! 480i SVideo source to receiver (which converts to either 480i HDMI or 1080i HDMI) to HDMI splitter to VP50 (which then outputs 1080i.) In this scenario, the VP50 generally fails to produce a picture regardless of the HDMI resolution.

Why not connect the source (480i) Svideo directly to the VP50 and output (HDMI) to receiver and reciever pass through (HDMI) to display. Try that.

I think ull get better performance out of the VP50 that way.

If you dont want to go that route and stick with the way you have it now , try a different HDMI cable. I had a problem with my setup last week with HDMI. I installed the VP50 and i wasnt getting a picture from my ps3 , but i was getting a picture from the xbox 360. I changed the HDMI cable from the PS3 to the VP50 and it worked. It was a HDMI cable i bought from bestbuy specifically saying it was 1.3 compliant , blah,blah ,blah..... Yeah ok , it is junk if it doesnt work. Im actually gonna call the company for a refund.
I have RAM electronics HDMI cables and i have no problems with any connections. These cables WORK.

-Hitman-

11-22-07, 02:34 PM

TrevorS

11-22-07, 03:36 PM

Thanks for your input :)!

Why not connect the source (480i) SVideo directly to the VP50 and output (HDMI) to receiver and reciever pass through (HDMI) to display. Try that.
I have four SVideo sources and so the receiver performs the necessary function of simultaneously selecting both the audio and the video. The 480i component is already direct to the VP50 so it would be fine, and there are clearly enough HDMI inputs on the VP50 to cover my two HDMI sources -- but are there zero issues with the VP50 delivering multi-channel high definition HDMI audio streams? (I do use pass through on the receiver for the HDMI inputs.)

I think ull get better performance out of the VP50 that way.
In what sense better performance out of the VP50? That is to say, I'm not clear where you are coming from with this input.

If you dont want to go that route and stick with the way you have it now , try a different HDMI cable. I had a problem with my setup last week with HDMI. I installed the VP50 and i wasnt getting a picture from my ps3 , but i was getting a picture from the xbox 360. I changed the HDMI cable from the PS3 to the VP50 and it worked. It was a HDMI cable i bought from bestbuy specifically saying it was 1.3 compliant , blah,blah ,blah..... Yeah ok , it is junk if it doesnt work. Im actually gonna call the company for a refund.
I have RAM electronics HDMI cables and i have no problems with any connections. These cables WORK.
The cables I'm using are BlueJeansCable Series II (excellent quality) and Gefen (also excellent), so I doubt it's a manufacturer issue, especially at just 6ft lengths.

I had to deal with an intermittent cable once before and it took me months to ultimately nail the exact source. But this isn't either dead or intermittent. There is never so much as a hiccup when the sources are HDMI, only with the converted signals, and then only with the VP50 -- the XBR800 with DVI-D input is just fine.

This leads me to be suspicious of the VP50 specifically, and perhaps a configuration issue. (My specific test source was LD, I'll try an SVideo DVD source as well.)

TrevorS

11-24-07, 02:36 PM

To follow up!

After spending some time with an SD DVD 480i SVideo source, I've refined the issue a little (no indication of it being specific to a particular analog source.) The behavior does seem to be related to how the VP50 qualifies the HDMI signals. Basically, there appear to be three cases from a user point of view:

1) If the HDMI signal originates from an HDMI source (though delivered via receiver -- Pioneer VSX-82TXS in my case), then the VP50 will lock on when its input is switched to that signal.

2) If the HDMI signal originates from the receiver as an analog conversion with a receiver selected output resolution, then the VP50 will lock on, but ONLY if the appropriate VP50 input is ALREADY selected, and the receiver input is THEN switched to the desired analog input. If that sequence is not followed, then the result is no picture from the VP50.

After the signal has been locked, the selected resolution can be changed at the receiver and the signal/picture will not be lost, however, if the resolution selection is defaulted to the input signal itself, then the signal/picture is lost.

3) If the HDMI signal originates from the receiver as an analog conversion preserving the analog signal resolution (480i in my case), then the VP50 will not lock onto the resulting HDMI signal, regardless of switching order. The result is no picture from the VP50.

Note that in all the above cases, the DVI-D HDTV (XBR800 in my case) correctly displays the identical signal fed to the VP50.

flyingvee

11-26-07, 06:24 PM

Going out on a limb here, but I would guess that your receiver's converted HDMI output doesn't have the required HDCP information to generate a handshake.

as to baddgsx's suggestion, one would have to at least assume that the VP50 will do a better conversion job of a 480i signal than your receiver - if that isn't the case, you really don't need the VP50. Your VP50 should smoke your receiver, and you'll get a better picture. (minor caveat - I have no idea what is in your Pioneer - but again, if its better than the VP50, you don't really need a VP50.)

TrevorS

11-26-07, 08:05 PM

Going out on a limb here, but I would guess that your receiver's converted HDMI output doesn't have the required HDCP information to generate a handshake.
I agree it's probably associated with the HDCP handshake, but given the HDCP supporting DVI-D CRT has no apparent complaints, that suggests to me the VP50 is the likely culprit.

as to baddgsx's suggestion, one would have to at least assume that the VP50 will do a better conversion job of a 480i signal than your receiver - if that isn't the case, you really don't need the VP50. Your VP50 should smoke your receiver, and you'll get a better picture. (minor caveat - I have no idea what is in your Pioneer - but again, if its better than the VP50, you don't really need a VP50.)
I've no doubt the VP50 upscaling is superior to the receiver's Faroudja (that function being half the reason I purchased it), and I suppose that could easily extend to the conversion as well, so if that's where he's coming from, I see the point.

However, since I need the receiver to perform input selection, the receiver being second isn't an option. Though I really wouldn't want to do that anyway since the input requirements for the CRT display and the projector are expected to differ. The reason for the VP50 is optimal upscaling and optimal signal for the projector.

Since the DVE picture values for the HDMI sources and the converted analog sources are different, there's a problem with that approach anyway, unless a splitter is used to pipe the conversion HDMI to a different VP50 input for access to a separate set of picture "controls". However, my point was simply that the VP50 HDMI responds in a "quirky" way to receiving the converted HDMI input. I would expect the Anchor Bay DVDO representatives to have at least SOME interest in that.

Gary Murrell

11-26-07, 08:21 PM

flyingvee

11-26-07, 09:33 PM

However, my point was simply that the VP50 HDMI responds in a "quirky" way to receiving the converted HDMI input. I would expect the Anchor Bay DVDO representatives to have at least SOME interest in that.

And they likely do; otoh, given the allegedly quirky behavior of your receiver (as described in the Audioholics review) and the inclusion of a switcher, I'd probably lean hard toward at least trying a different setup. After all - you've been here longer than I; by now the fact that there are HDMI handshake problems with virtually everything isn't a secret; I'd expect that converted HDMI outputs would be even more problematic, with new variables introduced by every brand of prepro on the market.

What if you let the VP50 handle all the switching, then send HDMI to your Pioneer? You can still switch between display devices after the Pio, you can let the VP do the heavy lifting, and if you're lucky, the Pio will just pass thru the processed video signal untouched. ( I know you have 4 S-vid sources, but you should be able to put a cheap switcher ahead of the VP50 to handle that. Less elegant, but if it gives you a better, stable display, its at least an option.)

Dale Adams

11-27-07, 10:57 AM

I tried out the 1.06 beta and found a bug that may be causing the problem some people are seeing.

When I reset to factory defaults (which is the state immediately after you load the new firmware) I found that high frequencies were severely attenuated on a 480i input on HDMI. (I did not test other configurations as no one has bothered to report detailed information on specific problem configs.) I think the problem has to do with the programming of the HDMI receiver chip, but I have not confirmed that. I did find that by switching between inputs I could cause the problem to go away and reappear, but I did not find a 100% reliable method of making it always disappear.

I've reported the bug to ABT along with enough information for them to reproduce it (I hope), so we'll see what they say.As it turns out, the problem I saw above with the 1.06 beta is almost certainly not what others have reported seeing. It turns out to have been a very minor bug in the VP50 (which is in all versions) coupled with a much bigger problem in the 480i HDMI source device I was using. Since this problem would only affect interlaced SD signals over HDMI, and since several VP50 users have reported problems with a variety of input formats, this can't be the cause of those reported problems.

I have been unable to duplicate on my VP50 setup what others are reporting. It would help very much if those who noted image quality problems with the 1.06 beta could provide specific information regarding the conditions under which they saw the problem. In particular, it would be useful to know the source device and program material being used, the output format of that source, the output format of the VP50, and the display device being used. The more detailed the information we can get, the more likely it is that we'll be able to track down and fix the problem quickly.

Thanks in advance for your help,

- Dale Adams

TrevorS

11-27-07, 03:41 PM

And they likely do; otoh, given the allegedly quirky behavior of your receiver (as described in the Audioholics review) and the inclusion of a switcher, I'd probably lean hard toward at least trying a different setup. After all - you've been here longer than I; by now the fact that there are HDMI handshake problems with virtually everything isn't a secret; I'd expect that converted HDMI outputs would be even more problematic, with new variables introduced by every brand of prepro on the market.

What if you let the VP50 handle all the switching, then send HDMI to your Pioneer? You can still switch between display devices after the Pio, you can let the VP do the heavy lifting, and if you're lucky, the Pio will just pass thru the processed video signal untouched. (I know you have 4 S-vid sources, but you should be able to put a cheap switcher ahead of the VP50 to handle that. Less elegant, but if it gives you a better, stable display, its at least an option.)

I read that review while researching the receiver before purchase, and I'm aware of flaws relative to upscaling behavior (my use of 480i SVideo inputs avoids that pitfall), but not regarding HDMI specifically. What HDMI quirks are you referring to? (Again noting the XBR800 has no problems with the converted HDMI signal from the receiver.)

As described above, the VP50 is already doing the "heavy lifting" (unless you feel the receiver is dubious for video switching.) Perhaps you're unaware, but a "cheap" SVideo switch will not necessarily preserve SVideo signal quality (will most likely cost bandwidth.) I use a dedicated external comb filter to achieve reasonably high quality SVideo from my component sources, and I've found the reciever switching preserves it very well. I wouldn't want to lose ground there and a cheap switcher would almost certainly do exactly that (would likely impact switched audio quality as well.)

As the configuration stands, I get an excellent quality picture via the VP50 from all its inputs. The only problem being the HDMI "quirk" I described above. I and my application will survive said quirk, but I still have no reason to presume the VP50 is not at fault. (The workarounds being not to feed analog defined resolutions via conversion to the VP50 HDMI, and to always switch to the desired receiver analog source AFTER selecting the HDMI input on the VP50. Or, of course, not use converted analog at all.)

PS. Also as mentioned above, the optimal signal needs of the HDTV are not expected to be the same as those of the projector, plus it's not clear the receiver is able to pass, for example, 1080p24. Also, there was no response to my question regarding the VP50 being able to successfully merge and pass all audio streams, regardless of CODEC. Using the PV50 as a front end to the receiver simply doesn't make much sense to me given my needs.

Dale Adams

11-27-07, 04:31 PM

Very interesting. Could this be similar to the "loss of resolution" (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=8421491&postcount=5559) bug on the VP30? This was posted a little over a year ago. I did not receive a response from DVDO, after mailing this issue with a more detailed reproduction than was posted. (I must confess reproducing this is a little complicated...) The current VP30 firmware still has this issue.Now that we've finally identified the root cause(s) of the problem I was seeing on the VP50 I can tell you that this is exactly the problem you were seeing on the VP30. Here's what's going on:

1) SD interlaced signals over HDMI use a pixel-doubled method to get around a low frequency limitation on the pixel clock for SD interlaced signals. Each pixel is sent twice (i.e., the same pixel data is sent back-to-back) so that the too-low pixel clock rate is effectively doubled.

2) There's a minor bug in the VP50 (and apparently the VP30 as well) which causes the VP50 to sometimes select the first instance of the duplicated pixel and sometimes to select the second instance. Since both instances are supposed to be the same, I hesitate to even call this a bug. (Note that this does not occur with the VP50Pro.)

3) The Oppo 970 does something very odd when it sends out an SD interlaced signal over its HDMI port. Instead of double-clocking each of the 720 pixels in a line, it instead scales the line to 1440 pixels and then sends that out. Consequently, one of the 'duplicated' pixels is the original and the other is actually an interpolated value at a position halfway between two of the original pixels. I believe this is a violation of the spec, as each individual source pixel is supposed to be double-clocked.

4) Because of the problem described in #2 above, the VP50 will sometimes use the even instance of the (supposedly) double-clocked pixels and will sometimes use the odd instance. When the VP50 selects the even instance of the 'duplicated' pixel, you get the original signal and life is good. When the VP50 selects the odd instance you get a version which has the high frequencies rolled off due to the filtering inherent in the scaling process.

I believe someone at ABT is looking at fixing the irregularity of the VP50 in selecting the even or odd 'duplicate' pixel. This should fix the problem when using an Oppo 970 DVD player. I have no idea, however, when such a fix might become available. I also have no idea if any other source devices might do something similar. Has anyone experienced anything like this when using an SD interlaced input over HDMI to a VPxx?

- Dale Adams

Slonk

11-28-07, 12:16 PM

When the VP50 selects the even instance of the 'duplicated' pixel, you get the original signal and life is good. When the selects the odd instance you get a version which has the high frequencies rolled off due to the filtering inherent in the scaling process.
Impressive analysis. This means that we happy viewers when using HDMI/SD/Oppo 970 often hardly or not notice this high frequency roll-off despite our so-called critical eyes :rolleyes:

Is is possible to calculate/quantify/estimate this roll-off in terms of MHz and dB's? (I believe the 6.75?MHz vertical line pattern is lost.)

Or does the Oppo scaling process, combined with this issue, simply mean that in the worst case we effectively have reduced our vertical resolution to a minute 360 pixels (720/2)?

mgavsf

11-28-07, 03:57 PM

Has anyone used a VP50 with the new Pioneer KURO 1080P plasmas and compared the processing?

1 guy over on AV forums (UK) said he sent his VP50 back as there wasn't much difference in PQ for SD or HD feeds.

TIA

I have had a VP50 which was connected to a Panasonic 50HD5UY since Jan 07. The difference was stunning and the VP50 purchase was a no brainer. Two weeks ago, we bought a Pioneer Elite 50 inch 110FD for the bedroom and 60 inch 150FD to replace the Panasonic. Up until that time I was actually thinking of buying another VP50 for the bedroom. However, after we setup the 110FD in the bedroom the picture blew us away (out of the box!). It looked better than in the store. There is no way I can justify a processor now. The 150FD has the VP50 connected. I must state that I have not really tweaked the VP50 much. I can hardly tell the difference between the non-VP50 and VP50 displays. They are not side by side but my opinion is that as much as I liked the VP50, if I had bought the 150FD first, I most likely would not have kept the VP50. However, the VP50 does have a lot of aspect/etc. adjustments which I use so I am happy with it. My big problem now is that I was considering a VP50PRO upgrade which I will likely put off until a VP60. I don't have experience with the other non-Elite models. But for Elite/VP50 combos, I guess the bottom line is if the cost of the VP50 improvement for an Elite is worth it to you. For any other displays, IMHO the VP50 provides a huge improvement. One more thing.. The VP50 did a fantastic job with SD on SVIDEO and we were stunned at the improvement on a DirectTV HDVR2, but... the Elites handle SD just as good which also stunned us. Hope this helps.

oink

11-28-07, 04:29 PM

This means that we happy viewers when using HDMI/SD/Oppo 970 often hardly or not notice this high frequency roll-off despite our so-called critical eyes :rolleyes:

Is is possible to calculate/quantify/estimate this roll-off in terms of MHz and dB's? (I believe the 6.75?MHz vertical line pattern is lost.)

Or does the Oppo scaling process, combined with this issue, simply mean that in the worst case we effectively have reduced our vertical resolution to a minute 360 pixels (720/2)?
Should we alert Oppo to this and ask for new FW?
Dale?

Dale Adams

11-28-07, 06:59 PM

Is is possible to calculate/quantify/estimate this roll-off in terms of MHz and dB's? (I believe the 6.75?MHz vertical line pattern is lost.)

Or does the Oppo scaling process, combined with this issue, simply mean that in the worst case we effectively have reduced our vertical resolution to a minute 360 pixels (720/2)?Using the 0.5 MHz to 5.75 MHz luminance sweep on DVE, I see a fairly sharp drop-off at what looks to be about 5.6 MHz. Below that it looks pretty good.

You're right about the 6.75 MHz band - it's just a solid gray bar. But then that's exactly what I'd expect if the Oppo is scaling the original 720 pixels to 1440.

- Dale Adams

Dale Adams

11-28-07, 07:04 PM

Should we alert Oppo to this and ask for new FW?That's up to you, of course. It certainly couldn't hurt. They may not be able to do anything about this, as it's likely a hardware limitation (which is why they're using the scaling method in the first place). That's a question for them to answer, though.

This problem won't even show up in many systems. The VP50Pro, for instance, always selects the even numbered pixels and so processes the non-filtered original data. It's only because of the issue with the VP50 (and VP30) that the problem even becomes visible. And hopefully ABT can fix this on the VP50 so that it becomes a non-issue.

- Dale Adams

mskreis

11-28-07, 10:07 PM

So, were the early reports of problems with 1.06 incorrect? Can we now safely upgrade to this version?

oink

11-29-07, 01:37 AM

And hopefully ABT can fix this on the VP50 so that it becomes a non-issue
That would be great.
And thanx for the explanation.:)

Neuromancer

11-29-07, 02:03 PM

The Oppo 970 does something very odd when it sends out an SD interlaced signal over its HDMI port. Instead of double-clocking each of the 720 pixels in a line, it instead scales the line to 1440 pixels and then sends that out.

This is speculation. In my conversations with OPPO about this error, there has been no verifiable proof that the MTK solution is "cheating" by scaling to 1440, rather than pixel-doubling 720. I know that both OPPO and ABT are working on this error (ABT and OPPO have been business partners for a while, and it is in both of their interests to resolve this error).

Rich51567

11-29-07, 03:39 PM

So, were the early reports of problems with 1.06 incorrect? Can we now safely upgrade to this version?

Every update since 1.04 has been good for me...1.06 has been working since I installed it and it installed on the 1st try, unlike 1.05 which took 3 or 4 tries. Keep in mind, though, I'm, not asking alot of the VP-50 as I have a PS3, a HD Directv box and a high end newer DVD player all using HDMI. Outputting to a Sony Pearl as my display.

Neuromancer

11-29-07, 04:30 PM

So, were the early reports of problems with 1.06 incorrect? Can we now safely upgrade to this version?

I've been using 1.06 for a while and have had no real complaints.

AndyN

11-29-07, 04:55 PM

Only thing about 1.6 was that it reset ALL of the settings. So prepare ahead of time. I went from 1.0 to 1.6 and have not had any problems.

Dale Adams

11-29-07, 06:32 PM

This is speculation. In my conversations with OPPO about this error, there has been no verifiable proof that the MTK solution is "cheating" by scaling to 1440, rather than pixel-doubling 720.No, it's not speculation. We digitally captured the the 1440 pixel/line output of the Oppo 970 using a DVI capture card on a PC. It's easy to see that:

1) The even and odd numbered pixels are not same.

2) One of the sets (the even one) is the original image.

3) The other set (the odd one) is clearly not the original.

4) The image with just the odd pixels is offset 1/2 pixel to the right from the image with just the even pixels.

5) The non-original set shows all the signs you'd expect from a set of scaled pixels, including a uniform gray where the image was a 6.75 MHz set of alternating black and white vertical lines, most pixel values being between the neighboring (even) ones (except for those that undershoot or overshoot), and even ringing around sharp transitions in the horizontal direction. I can even determine the rough order of the FIR filters used in the scaler based on the number of symmetrical under- and over-shoots around vertically oriented features.

Outside of Oppo saying "yes, we're scaling the image" that's about as conclusive as you can get in my book.

- Dale Adams

Gino AUS

11-29-07, 10:40 PM

Dale - given the above mentioned problems with the Oppo, would you recommend outputting 480i over HDMI, or 480p instead and using Prep?

alex_t

11-30-07, 03:00 AM

No, it's not speculation. We digitally captured the the 1440 pixel/line output of the Oppo 970 using a DVI capture card on a PC. It's easy to see that:

1) The even and odd numbered pixels are not same.

2) One of the sets (the even one) is the original image.

3) The other set (the odd one) is clearly not the original.

4) The non-original set shows all the signs you'd expect from a set of scaled pixels, including a uniform gray where the image was a 6.75 MHz set of alternating black and white vertical lines, most pixel values being between the neighboring (even) ones (except for those that undershoot or overshoot), and even ringing around sharp transitions in the horizontal direction. I can even determine the rough order of the FIR filters used in the scaler based on the number of symmetrical under- and over-shoots around vertically oriented features.

Outside of Oppo saying "yes, we're scaling the image" that's about as conclusive as you can get in my book.

- Dale Adams

Hello.

I have en oppo 970 and a vantage HD video processor. I have an issue when I use 480i or 576i with HDMI (very bad picture, a lot of noise) [ 480p , 576p, 720p and 1080i work very well ]

Is this issue can be fixed by a firmware upgrade of the oppo 970 ? ( oppo digital is aware regarding my issue and vantage HD works well with my toshiba hd-e1 in 576i hdmi )

Thank you.

Regards
alex_t

Dale Adams

11-30-07, 10:43 AM

Dale - given the above mentioned problems with the Oppo, would you recommend outputting 480i over HDMI, or 480p instead and using Prep?If you're willing to play a bit with the VP50/0ppo combination, then using 480i should work. You just have to switch back and forth between the HDMI input the Oppo 970 is feeding and other inputs a few times until you get the correct set of pixels. One potential issue here is that it may not be obvious which is correct depending on the source material you're using at the time. It is obvious with the right test patterns (i.e., resolution tests).

480p and PReP should work fine, though. I haven't looked at this lately, but I did do a lot of testing with this Oppo player back when I was doing the PReP development, and this combination appeared to work with no problems.

- Dale Adams

Dale Adams

11-30-07, 10:47 AM

I have en oppo 970 and a vantage HD video processor. I have an issue when I use 480i or 576i with HDMI (very bad picture, a lot of noise) [ 480p , 576p, 720p and 1080i work very well ]I don't see any reason why you would get extra noise in the image due to this particular issue with the Oppo 970. Loss of resolution, yes, but not noise.

Is this issue can be fixed by a firmware upgrade of the oppo 970 ?That's something someone from Oppo or Calibre would have to comment on.

- Dale Adams

choddo

12-01-07, 03:55 AM

oink

12-02-07, 06:38 PM

OK, looks like I need to turn PREP on.
And here I thought I wouldn't have a need for it....;)

jello2594

12-05-07, 04:56 AM

Hey everyone. I searched for this, so hopefully I'm not repeating a known issue. I just upgraded my VP50 to 1.06b. I've got 2 inputs that are HDMI with optical audio. The audio coming through on these inputs was heavily distorted, and resetting didn't seem to help. This didnt happen if I set the audio to HDMI or use the coax inputs. I reverted back to 1.04 - anyone else with this problem?

flamingoboo

12-05-07, 03:29 PM

Hi there, hopefully somebody can help me.

I have a vp50 with a dvd player and a ps3 connected through hdmi to a optoma h79 projector. All was working well. I then did a hotswap of the hdmi cables when I was trying to connect something else.

After this the dvd player works fine, but the ps3 player when connected will not show on the projector, the light on the vp50 is blue, so as I understand it the vp50 is seeing the ps3 and also handskaking with the h79, all the h79 shows is "searching" i have checked all the cables accoss different inputs and the dvd player works on all hdmi inputs with all the cables correctly. The h79 also shows the ps3 when connected directly without the vp50.

please help me. Have I done something wrong with the hotswap?

Bhusan.

Rich51567

12-05-07, 03:39 PM

TSHA222

12-05-07, 11:13 PM

EricBergan

12-06-07, 03:29 AM

I hope I haven't missed this somewhere already. I did a search for all the terms I could think of to describe my issue. I have a Panasonic BD outputting 1080i HDMI, Tosh HDDVD outputting 1080i HDMI, Oppo 870 outputting 480i HDMI, Escient DVD controller outputting 480i over component and Laserdisc via s-video. I have an issue where the picture flashes between clear and "snow" until I unplug the power from my VP50, then things are fine. Is anyone else experiencing this?

I just got a Panny BD30 and Tosh A35, both feeding the VP50 at 1080p/24, and also the BD30 doing SD DVDs at 480i over component. Haven't seen the problems you are describing, at worst, my preamp gets confused about audio occasionally. I'm still on 1.04 firmware on the VP50.

Marc Shaw

12-10-07, 04:30 PM

AndyN

12-10-07, 07:24 PM

I just got a Panny BD30 and Tosh A35, both feeding the VP50 at 1080p/24, and also the BD30 doing SD DVDs at 480i over component. Haven't seen the problems you are describing, at worst, my preamp gets confused about audio occasionally. I'm still on 1.04 firmware on the VP50.

I'm also running a Tosh A35 and a PS3 at 1080p/24 to the VP50 and framerate coverting to 48Hz without any problems. Firmware 1.06 is great. I used to get minor stutter with framerate conversion but 1.06 cleared it up (coming from 1.00).

Andy

ailean

12-10-07, 07:35 PM

Hey Guys,

Well it took me a few days but I slogged through this entire thread but could not find my answer so I thought I'd post the question. :)

I have HD Bell ExpressVu (Canadian EchoStar) feeding into a HDMI Flea then to a VP50 (v1.04) which then outputs 1080p to a Sony KDL40W3000 (via HDMI also). An Oppo 981H also sends 480i (via HDMI) directly to the VP50 and an older Sony VCR runs to the VP50 via composite cables (kept for a few legacy cartoons of my son's). All sound runs from the VP50 via TosLink to a Yahama receiver (I forget the model number).

My question is: with this set up, what is the best resolution to set the HD-Sat box to output to the Flea? The HD-Sat box only gives the options to 480i/720p/1080i, no native resolution.

I am thinking that 1080i might be the best resolution but I'd like to hear what the experts think.

Thanks - Marc.

From what I hear of the Flea it needs the native res to do all it's NR magic so if you feed it something else you'll loose something there, the same goes for the VP50 deinterlacing/scaling. So if your box doesn't have an auto setting then I'd say set it to which ever format you watch/care the most of.

So if you watch mostly news/soaps/talk shows that are 480i but don't care about the best video from them then go with what ever format is used for the most common watched stuff that you do care about (say movies/sports).

Or if possible try to make a remote macro to change the output so you can easily select the right one.

baddgsx

12-11-07, 04:30 PM

Marc Shaw

12-11-07, 08:17 PM

From what I hear of the Flea it needs the native res to do all it's NR magic so if you feed it something else you'll loose something there, the same goes for the VP50 deinterlacing/scaling. So if your box doesn't have an auto setting then I'd say set it to which ever format you watch/care the most of....

Thanks. I guess most of the Bell HD is 1080i so I'll stick with that.

Marc

bobloblaw

12-11-07, 09:54 PM

This is speculation. In my conversations with OPPO about this error, there has been no verifiable proof that the MTK solution is "cheating" by scaling to 1440, rather than pixel-doubling 720. I know that both OPPO and ABT are working on this error (ABT and OPPO have been business partners for a while, and it is in both of their interests to resolve this error).

No, it's not speculation. We digitally captured the the 1440 pixel/line output of the Oppo 970 using a DVI capture card on a PC. It's easy to see that:

1) The even and odd numbered pixels are not same.

2) One of the sets (the even one) is the original image.

3) The other set (the odd one) is clearly not the original.

4) The image with just the odd pixels is offset 1/2 pixel to the right from the image with just the even pixels.

5) The non-original set shows all the signs you'd expect from a set of scaled pixels, including a uniform gray where the image was a 6.75 MHz set of alternating black and white vertical lines, most pixel values being between the neighboring (even) ones (except for those that undershoot or overshoot), and even ringing around sharp transitions in the horizontal direction. I can even determine the rough order of the FIR filters used in the scaler based on the number of symmetrical under- and over-shoots around vertically oriented features.

Outside of Oppo saying "yes, we're scaling the image" that's about as conclusive as you can get in my book.

- Dale Adams

This is definitely very interesting stuff. Dale, in your original post on this issue back on Nov 27th, you mentioned that you were unaware of other players that have this issue. I'm curious if your knowledge has changed since then. In particular, I'm interested to know if this issue exists in OPPO's 980H player. As Neuromancer indicated, OPPO and ABT are close business partners, and considering the MTK chip in the 980H is a special version for OPPO (my understanding anyway), I'm hopefully this issue has been worked out.

I'm considering the purchase of a 980H to pair with my VP30/ABT102. If the issue does exist in 980H, it would be great if OPPO provided a firmware update to solve the problem, ABT has already indicated that it will not be releasing any new firmware for the VP30.

Thanks.

Dale Adams

12-12-07, 05:18 AM

Dale, in your original post on this issue back on Nov 27th, you mentioned that you were unaware of other players that have this issue. I'm curious if your knowledge has changed since then. In particular, I'm interested to know if this issue exists in OPPO's 980H player.I still don't know of any other players that do this. That doesn't necessarily mean there aren't any, though. I don't have a 980 or any test data on that player.

- Dale Adams

oink

12-12-07, 06:04 PM

I still don't know of any other players that do this.

I turned on 480p on my 970 and activated PREP.
I guess this will work until/if there is future FW.

victor04

12-12-07, 06:41 PM

hi , does anyone have their vp50 connected to their pc? If so , do u see any difference or have any problems. Im thinking of doing it for the benefit of all my old emulator games. On my 70inch , all the old games look so pixelly. I wonder if that will fix that , thanx Chris
Hi Chris. I am not able to run my pc through the VP50 ( black screen ) and I am obliged to go directly to my plasma ( i don't know why ) .
My system :
- Skybox/Humax 2000 > VP50 > DVI output > DVI input 1 Panasonic TH-65PF9EK
- PC > DVI output > DVI input 2 TH-65PF9EK
Bye
Victor
Italy

flamingoboo

12-15-07, 07:45 AM

baddgsx

12-15-07, 09:13 AM

Thanx Victor ,

yea , im gonna just skip the VP50 and go into my JVC-70FH96 ,
thatll free up one input on the vp50 for something else that might come along.

GinSonic

12-15-07, 11:42 AM

@flamingoboo:

This is VERY strange, because I have the same troubles since a few days. Everything was working flawlessly, but on the next day suddenly my VP50 stoppped working with exactly the same behavoiur than Yours. Steady blue light but no more output signal. The only difference is the devices (e.g. no PS3, JVC HD1).

Has anyone an idea, what this could be ? An error in FW 1.06 ? I also tried different older firmware versions without success.
But the strangest thing is, that the VP50 seems to work on my computer TFT (HDCP capable Samsung 223BW).
I tried different output devices like my plasma TV and my HD1, but only on the TFT there is 100% correct output with OSD working !