Could someone provide a recommendation for a good "universal" player for redbook CD, DVD-A, and SACD under $1000? Taking into account video is not important...

Thanks in advance!

oppo 970hd 149.00

For around a hundred (plus twenty to thirty) - Pioneer 588A. For under a thousand? Just about any.

Think the audio is as good as denon 1920/2910 or pioneer 59AVi?

The 588A is fine for me. Really depends on how well you can tell the difference. The Denon's get great reviews & recommendations from others in the forum, priced higher though. Pioneer gets good reviews and recommendations.

Think the audio is as good as denon 1920/2910 or pioneer 59AVi?
did you even bother to look at the audio reviews on the oppo? might open your eyes and ears :rolleyes:

Monsteraudio, if you're talking Oppo 970, please point me in the direction of a great review. I've not seen one. Seems like the 971 is the better product, minus SACD.

Anyway, don't you have the Denon??

Check this out on the 2930:

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/08/denon_dvd2930ci.html

Could someone provide a recommendation for a good "universal" player for redbook CD, DVD-A, and SACD under $1000? Taking into account video is not important...

Thanks in advance!

Entry level player contain inferior parts, inferior design as well as inferior power supplie stage and in case of SACD lack a dedicated DSD chip. Spend more and get more. The main issue at lower price is SACD in particular lesser players dont offer either bass management on SACD or time delay.


You definitely should look at Denon 2910, 3910 both currently being phased out and the latter has full bass management for both SACD and DVD-A plus time delay so its worth the price over 2910. Top of the line MArantz is also good. Or you could get two players instead of one. For example I chose for SACD/CD the Sony NS999ES used for less than $500 cheap because it does not have HDMI (its a sonic deadringer to current 9100es retailing for $1300 with HDMI). Build quality on Sony is excellent as is SACD playback (Sony does SACD better than most if not all). All Sony ES models do SACD quite well so you could couple with another excellent DVD-A player in the Rotel RDV 1050 or 1060 for example for a killer combo.

http://www.audaud.com/article.php?ArticleID=1701,http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/OppoDV-970HDDVDp3.php, not saying its the best but for 149.00, hell I would have just sold you my 2910 it went for 415.00 on fleabay, soundwise I can't compare the 2(all different components now)there just never materialized the media I thought would come out on SACD, picture to me is better on the oppo to me, LISTEN TO APODACA he seems to be into the sacd"s more, sorry if I came off harsh

The Pioneer 59AVi gets my recommendation.

The Onkyo DV-SP1000 is a very good example of a player with high-quality audio in all of the supported formats (cd, dvd-audio, sacd). While it generally lists for more than your budgeted amount, you can sometimes find it for ~$1400 or so new.

I've got the Pioneer 79avi, and even though it's an awesome DVD player, I use it almost exclusively for DVD-A and SACD.

You can find it pretty cheap these days too, just look around the forums.

Just my 2 cents...

Entry level player contain inferior parts, inferior design as well as inferior power supplie stage and in case of SACD lack a dedicated DSD chip. Spend more and get more. The main issue at lower price is SACD in particular lesser players dont offer either bass management on SACD or time delay.


You definitely should look at Denon 2910, 3910 both currently being phased out and the latter has full bass management for both SACD and DVD-A plus time delay so its worth the price over 2910. Top of the line MArantz is also good. Or you could get two players instead of one. For example I chose for SACD/CD the Sony NS999ES used for less than $500 cheap because it does not have HDMI (its a sonic deadringer to current 9100es retailing for $1300 with HDMI). Build quality on Sony is excellent as is SACD playback (Sony does SACD better than most if not all). All Sony ES models do SACD quite well so you could couple with another excellent DVD-A player in the Rotel RDV 1050 or 1060 for example for a killer combo.


Do any of the above players do DSD bass management and time delay, without converting to PCM?

Thanks

Do any of the above players do DSD bass management and time delay, without converting to PCM?

Thanks


I know the Sony ES series players do for sure. You would need to check on the Denon 3910 player.

I don't know any player that do time aligment in DSD domain.I wonder if Sony ever presented a white paper on this.
The DEnon 3910 will convert to PCM if the BM and TA features are engaged, same goes for the 5900, 5910, 2910, 2930,3930.

I don't know any player that do time aligment in DSD domain.I wonder if Sony ever presented a white paper on this.
The DEnon 3910 will convert to PCM if the BM and TA features are engaged, same goes for the 5900, 5910, 2910, 2930,3930.


In the technical paper for the DVP-NC555ES which is one generation old DVD player it mentions a dedicated chip (CXD9722) 'a one bit digital signal processor LSI' - if its one bit it must be in the DSD domain.

ES tech paper (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/DVPNS999ES_TWP.pdf)

In the technical paper for the DVP-NC555ES which is one generation old DVD player it mentions a dedicated chip (CXD9722) 'a one bit digital signal processor LSI' - if its one bit it must be in the DSD domain.

ES tech paper (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/DVPNS999ES_TWP.pdf)

That's the same chip pretty much everyone uses, and certainly by Denon too, however it seems implementation varries on some users.
There is a mention of that chip on this page.
Look under " difficulties in processing".

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/sacd-dvd-a/index.html

That particular model is two generations old. In the 999ES which follows it there is time delay alongside bass management and again based on the technical paper it is clear they refer to the chip as a 1 bit DSP. At any rate, not many people do SACD like Sony and certainly not at their same price level.

All of their lesser player now offer bass management and time delay but they lack the 1 bit DSP chip as well the dedicated DSD decoding chip. It is these lesser players that convert the signal to PCM and then post process.

1,That's not a technical paper per se, but a "consumer brochure"
2,The plyer is unimportant, it uses the same chip you referenced.
3,All high end Denon, and Marantz players use that chip, which in many case called "second generation" by them. Sony simply haven't been interested on SACD for a while, but won't let anyone else have a patent either.
4, Denon use a separate DSP chip for BM and TA because it gives a much more flexibabilty, and versatile options, but it works in a much more DSP friendly PCM domain, so it will requires conversion.

Oppo? Pioneer 588?

You guys are deluded if you think that the analog output of either of those players is as good as the players in the $1k+ range....because it's not.

EVERY player that's not a Sony converts DSD to PCM for processing. I doubt the conversion in a decent player has much of an effect on sound quality....certainly less of an effect than not using delay or bass management!

By all accounts, the Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, and Pioneer players in that price range are all excellent sources for DVD-A/SACD. Hell, my 3-year old Denon 2900 has excellent sound and can be picked up for $400.

Oppo? Pioneer 588?

You guys are deluded if you think that the analog output of either of those players is as good as the players in the $1k+ range....because it's not.

EVERY player that's not a Sony converts DSD to PCM for processing. I doubt the conversion in a decent player has much of an effect on sound quality....certainly less of an effect than not using delay or bass management!

You are comparing $150.00 players to $1K players? For the difference in price, the $1K players better be much improved over the lower cost players.

As for DSD to PCM conversions, I've read that both Samsung and Toshiba are "true DSD" machines with no such conversion.

Cambridge Audio

You are comparing $150.00 players to $1K players? For the difference in price, the $1K players better be much improved over the lower cost players.

The OP asked for good players with a $1k budget. Several people jumped in with the Oppo and Pio 588 recommendations. I pointed out the silliness of those recommendations. Thanks for agreeing with me!


As for DSD to PCM conversions, I've read that both Samsung and Toshiba are "true DSD" machines with no such conversion.

Nope. They may output "true DSD", but once bass management is used, they convert it to PCM. Just like EVERY other non-Sony player.

Oppo? Pioneer 588?

You guys are deluded if you think that the analog output of either of those players is as good as the players in the $1k+ range....because it's not.



In reality, price is more a yardstick for determining value than quality. Consumers generally associate certain brands with quality and willingly play into the pricing order established by those brands. Luckily, there are testers out there who actually determine quality without prejudice to price or brand.

DVD Benchmark (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=200&deInt=0&mpeg=0)

Unless someone can prove these testers are fake or paid off, one has to conlcude that OPPO makes some fine DVD players and for very little money. Would I pay hundreds more just to get a name brand? Not likely.

I'm pretty happy with the Yamaha S657 I picked up yesterday. Seems like a solid, no-frills player. Haven't played many SACD's yet, but the two I played sounded really good to my ears.

In reality, price is more a yardstick for determining value than quality.

To some extent, yes. I am certainly not in the camp that believes "if it costs more, it must be better". However, it is not inexpensive to design a quality analog output and if you think the Oppo and Pio 588 players have as good an analog audio output section as the better players in the $1k range, well, you are deluded.


DVD Benchmark (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=0&maxprice=200&deInt=0&mpeg=0)

Unless someone can prove these testers are fake or paid off, one has to conlcude that OPPO makes some fine DVD players and for very little money. Would I pay hundreds more just to get a name brand? Not likely.

The DVD Benchmark is for VIDEO. What is this thread about? ANALOG AUDIO. Besides, Kris Deering never meant for the DVD Benchmark single number rating to encompass the entire performance of a player. Kris has repeatedly stated that the best images he has seen are from the Onkyo/Denon players at 2k+. Guess what Kris's reference player is? Hint, it's not an Oppo.

The Oppo is a fantastic VALUE, but there are better players and they do cost more.

Initially I thought the $1000 may have been a typo. Apparently not. Sorry I even brought up the 588A.

To some extent, yes. I am certainly not in the camp that believes "if it costs more, it must be better". However, it is not inexpensive to design a quality analog output and if you think the Oppo and Pio 588 players have as good an analog audio output section as the better players in the $1k range, well, you are deluded.While no one has claimed OPPO is better than more expensive players, reviews do suggest OPPO players might in fact be better than some. To me, that is very significant because the object of research like this is precisely to find the equipment with best performance/price ratio. OPPO costs around $150. Do I get a machine that is 6 times better by spending 6 times as much? I doubt that.The DVD Benchmark is for VIDEO. What is this thread about? ANALOG AUDIO. Besides, Kris Deering never meant for the DVDBenchmark single number rating to encompass the entire performance of a player. Kris has repeatedly stated that the best images he has seen are from the Onkyo/Denon players at 2k+. Guess what Kris's reference player is? Hint, it's not an Oppo.

The Oppo is a fantastic VALUE, but there are better players and they do cost more.
Maybe it's just me, but to think "ANALOG AUDIO" is the overriding factor in deciding on a DVD player is just outright silly. The rating for OPPO only suggests that it is a well-rounded player with few faults. If those $2k+ models were so good, why did they not have the same top ratings? And OPPO's rating also suggests its image is not 12 times worse than the expensive Onkyo/Denon players. One could say OPPO is close but no cigar. For $150, I'd have plenty leftover to buy me some real Cubans. :D

Oppo? Pioneer 588?

You guys are deluded if you think that the analog output of either of those players is as good as the players in the $1k+ range....because it's not.

EVERY player that's not a Sony converts DSD to PCM for processing. I doubt the conversion in a decent player has much of an effect on sound quality....certainly less of an effect than not using delay or bass management!

By all accounts, the Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, and Pioneer players in that price range are all excellent sources for DVD-A/SACD. Hell, my 3-year old Denon 2900 has excellent sound and can be picked up for $400.

My Oppo,970 sound very close if not identical to the Denon 2900, which I also own. The 2900 supposedly didn't convert DSD to PCM according to Denon at the time. Denon cost 6 times as much when it was new in 2003. Go figure!

Maybe it's just me, but to think "ANALOG AUDIO" is the overriding factor in deciding on a DVD player is just outright silly.

Gee, maybe you should reread the OP's first post....

Could someone provide a recommendation for a good "universal" player for redbook CD, DVD-A, and SACD under $1000? Taking into account video is not important...

My Oppo,970 sound very close if not identical to the Denon 2900, which I also own. The 2900 supposedly didn't convert DSD to PCM according to Denon at the time.

To each person's ears their own. The 2900 does convert to PCM if you engage the bass management, but otherwise no.

Could someone provide a recommendation for a good "universal" player for redbook CD, DVD-A, and SACD under $1000? Taking into account video is not important...

Thanks in advance!

The Pioneer Elite DV-79AVi. The Denons are good as well in that price range, in comparison. I don't think you're going to find a huge difference in the sound quality between any of the well known audio company's universal players in comparable price range. Comparing players of significantly different price ranges is another issue.

Could someone provide a recommendation for a good "universal" player for redbook CD, DVD-A, and SACD under $1000? Taking into account video is not important...Where's OP when we need him? Under $1000 includes $150 by any stretch of the imagination. Video is not important does not necessarily mean audio is overriding everything else. I would be flabbergasted to think someone would pay up to $1000 for a DVD player and don't care about video. That's NUTS! Sorry...

Where's OP when we need him? Under $1000 includes $150 by any stretch of the imagination. Video is not important does not necessarily mean audio is overriding everything else. I would be flabbergasted to think someone would pay up to $1000 for a DVD player and don't care about video. That's NUTS! Sorry...
Would you be "flabbergasted" to think that people pay $10K for speaker cables? $50K for amps? $100K for speakers? The OP is looking for the best " "universal" player for redbook CD, DVD-A, and SACD under $1000?"

It's not the Oppo...

John

Would you be "flabbergasted" to think that people pay $10K for speaker cables? $50K for amps? $100K for speakers? The OP is looking for the best " "universal" player for redbook CD, DVD-A, and SACD under $1000?"

It's not the Oppo...

JohnSky's the limit for those who have wads to burn. I wouldn't bet on a direct correlation between quality and price though. Do you think those outlandish gear would blow away audiophiles who have plenty good to say about your run-of-the-mill, low-priced (relatively speaking, of course), high-end paraphernalia? Highly unlikely. Lamborgini is a better bet if you are looking for the oohs and aahs.

I doubt anyone can name a consensus "best" of anything, let alone something as mundane as a universal player. BTW, the OP only asked for a GOOD player, not the BEST. The DVD review I've alluded to clearly suggests OPPO fits the bill. It's a GOOD player and undeniably one of the BEST among those reviewed.

To each person's ears their own. The 2900 does convert to PCM if you engage the bass management, but otherwise no.
True, but at least, I did compared the two, in my own set up, did you?
Denon maintains that there is no conversion in the 2900 even when the BM engagaed, however there were no TA for SACD and DTS applied. If you brave enough to search back 3 years you'll find "Denon Jeff's"[Jeff Talmadge] posts on this.

Maybe it's just me, but to think "ANALOG AUDIO" is the overriding factor in deciding on a DVD player is just outright silly.Maybe it's just me but I use universal DVD players in my audio-only system, so the "ANALOG AUDIO" outputs are of primary interest to me. :D

Kal

I doubt anyone can name a consensus "best" of anything, let alone something as mundane as a universal player. BTW, the OP only asked for a GOOD player, not the BEST. The DVD review I've alluded to clearly suggests OPPO fits the bill. It's a GOOD player and undeniably one of the BEST among those reviewed.

And I (and others) have recommended a range of good players to pick from. When someone says that they are looking for a good player at a certain price point, you should be recommending the best players up to that price point.

The DVD Benchmark you keep going on about is a deinterlacing/core video test. It has NOTHING to do with AUDIO! The OP is looking for a good AUDIO player, VIDEO is not important.

You seem to be placing your own priorities ahead of the OPs...he's the one looking for recommendations here. You also seem to mistake an incredible value for the best player in $1k and under class. They are not the same thing. Many of us are willing to pay more for incremental improvements.

True, but at least, I did compared the two, in my own set up, did you?
Denon maintains that there is no conversion in the 2900 even when the BM engagaed, however there were no TA for SACD and DTS applied. If you brave enough to search back 3 years you'll find "Denon Jeff's"[Jeff Talmadge] posts on this.

Nope, you've got me there. I have compared my Denon 1920 and my 2900. The 2900 sounds better to me (considering I bought the 2900 used for $400 and the 1920 brand new, not much of an expenditure bias there).

I'll have to go back and search for the posts you mentioned. I will certainly retract my comments on the PCM conversion if they are erroneous. Thanks for the info.

Maybe it's just me but I use universal DVD players in my audio-only system, so the "ANALOG AUDIO" outputs are of primary interest to me. :D

Kal

Same here. For my setup with the Denon DVD-5910, I'm using it exclusively for analog audio output ATM. So the analog audio is the most important interest for me on my Denon DVD-5910 DVD player, despite the fact that it has one of the better video processors for DVD on the market. I bought the player to act as my universal analog music source because the DACs are excellent, I didn't buy it to play movies and currently all I use it for is music...

Think the audio is as good as denon 1920/2910 or pioneer 59AVi?

BTW, FYI, the 59AVi was replaced by the 79AVi which is MSRP of $1000 or so.

Same here. For my setup with the Denon DVD-5910, I'm using it exclusively for analog audio output ATM. So the analog audio is the most important interest for me on my Denon DVD-5910 DVD player, despite the fact that it has one of the better video processors for DVD on the market. I bought the player to act as my universal analog music source because the DACs are excellent, I didn't buy it to play movies and currently all I use it for is music...This is most incredible for a newbie like me. Someone has to explain to me why a DVD player is supposed to provide functions that one would normally associate with an AVR. Am I missing something or you can't get the same excellent analog audio capability from a reasonably priced AVR? Maybe it's the DAC thing but a good AVR will give you that. For instance, say you hook up this Denon DVD player into a DAC capable AVR. You can't get the AVR to do the work for you?

This is most incredible for a newbie like me. Someone has to explain to me why a DVD player is supposed to provide functions that one would normally associate with an AVR. Am I missing something or you can't get the same excellent analog audio capability from a reasonably priced AVR? Maybe it's the DAC thing but a good AVR will give you that. For instance, say you hook up this Denon DVD player into a DAC capable AVR. You can't get the AVR to do the work for you?

NO you cant in most cases. Why? because SACD and DVD-A in multichannel are output via the multichannel analog outputs and most receivers do not offer neither bass management nor time delay settings on these inputs. Those that do, will digitize the multichannel input, apply BM and TD then convert back to analog. This often leads to an audible decrease in quality and or additional noise. Also the DACs in high end players are sometimes better in quality so even standard CDs in two channel will sound better thru the multichannel output. There are currently not many stand alone SACD players and zero DVD-A players so most get a universal player that plays everything.

One interesting thing I noticed on my Sony 999ES player is that the miltichannel outputs have higher quality caps and other parts vs the 2 channel out so naturaly I listen to CD via the multichannel output.

This is most incredible for a newbie like me. Someone has to explain to me why a DVD player is supposed to provide functions that one would normally associate with an AVR. Am I missing something or you can't get the same excellent analog audio capability from a reasonably priced AVR? Maybe it's the DAC thing but a good AVR will give you that. For instance, say you hook up this Denon DVD player into a DAC capable AVR. You can't get the AVR to do the work for you?

OK, here is an attempt at an explanation. First, the original poster is looking for a player that can decode the high-resolution, high-sampling-rate, uncompressed or lossless compressed, and (for many discs) 5.1 multichannel, AUDIO formats called "Super Audio CD" or SACD, and "DVD-Audio" or DVD-A. A standard CD player can't play these formats, most "run-of-the-mill" DVD players can't either, but some players called "universal" players can. Although you seem to have trouble believing it, the original poster suggests that his main purpose for getting a new player is to listen to those high quality AUDIO formats.

Explanation of SACD and DVD-Audio from Wikipedia.com (hope you enjoy reading Wikipedia articles, or maybe you should :D )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Audio

The next point is that, is that, even after you have a universal player, an AVR, and some SACD or DVD-Audio disks,

http://sa-cd.net/

and have hooked up your system, there is a problem with getting the high-resolution, and likely 5.1 channel, audio signal from the SACD or DVD-A disk, through the universal player, to the AVR. This signal cannot pass though a standard "coax" or "optical" digital connector, which is based on the Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format or S/PDIF standard, which was originally designed for transmission of CD audio data, which is lower bandwidth (fewer bits/second) than SACD or DVD-A. (More Wikipedia for your enjoyment)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S/PDIF

There are basically three (existing) methods to get the high-resolution audio from the SACD or DVD-A disk through the system (& ultimately out the speakers to your ears :) ):
(a) Do all of the decoding, processing, and D-to-A conversion of the audio signal in the player, and send to the receiver via a 5.1-channel analog connection (6 "RCA" cables).
(b) Digital alternative 1: get both a player and an AVR with an IEEE-1394 "firewire" digital interface, called Denon-link (by Denon) or I-link (by Pioneer), and transmit the high-res audio signal over the Denon-link / I-link. However, this probably requires buying BOTH a new player and new AVR, for a total price (for level of gear that includes the "firewire" interface) well over $1 K.
(c) Digital alternative 2: get both a player and an AVR with an HDMI interface, that can transmit the high-res audio signal over HDMI. However, there's a "catch" here: to transmit both DVD-Audio and SACD signals in their native digital formats (which differ from each other), you need a player and AVR with HDMI 1.2 or 1.3 interface (and need to check that HDMI transmission of the high-res audio is supported on the given component). I don't know of any player yet with HDMI 1.2 output (maybe someone else does). The just announced Marantz SR7001 and SR8001 receivers have HDMI 1.2, the SR7001 is $1400 MSRP.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/172.asp

So, to summarize, getting a universal player with better audio "chips" and better processing of the audio signal than found on an entry-level player, and using the 5.1 channel analog connection from new player to existing AVR, is probably the most cost-effective "path" to accomplish what the original poster wants (because options (b) or (c) that require a new AVR cost even more). So actually the original poster is being economical ;)

Denon link is not the same as I-link.Denon link is propreatery, I-Link is not[I.E. any manufactureres can use as long as they pay the licensing] I-link is the same as "firewire" or IEEE-1394.
Till recently Denon Link was unable to transmit SACD signals, the current 3rd generation can.

OK, here is an attempt at an explanation.Appreciate your patience in clarifying some difficult concepts here. :confused:
I don't know of any player yet with HDMI 1.2 output (maybe someone else does). The just announced Marantz SR7001 and SR8001 receivers have HDMI 1.2, the SR7001 is $1400 MSRP.Have you heard about Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi? I think model and another (82) have HDMI 1.2 output. MSRP is $1500 for 84 and $1200 for 82.
So, to summarize, getting a universal player with better audio "chips" and better processing of the audio signal than found on an entry-level player, and using the 5.1 channel analog connection from new player to existing AVR, is probably the most cost-effective "path" to accomplish what the original poster wants (because options (b) or (c) that require a new AVR cost even more). So actually the original poster is being economical ;)OK, I don't work for OPPO or even own one of their players, but what's wrong with their DV-970HD Universal DVD Player? In a different DVD Benchmark Review (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=130#Oppo%20DigitalDV-970HD%20(HDMI)) , Kris Deering talks at length about its support for SACD and DVD-A. Other than possible compatibility issues with some receivers, he thinks this is "icing on the cake." Why do you think the OP should outright discount it simply due to its humble price?

isomdh, for being a newbie who doesn't understand how DVD-A and SACD even work, you sure stormed in this thread with a bunch of strong (erroneous) statements. Perhaps next time, you'll lurk and learn instead of posting opionated statements based on no knowledge whatsoever.

isomdh, for being a newbie who doesn't understand how DVD-A and SACD even work, you sure stormed in this thread with a bunch of strong (erroneous) statements. Perhaps next time, you'll lurk and learn instead of posting opionated statements based on no knowledge whatsoever.Please point out the erroneous statements I have made. One thing I've noticed is that instead of responding to my questions, you've chosen to go on the bashing mode. Even if you were the sage, going on a holy crusade to wipe out newbies isn't going to win you any friends.

Please point out the erroneous statements I have made. One thing I've noticed is that instead of responding to my questions, you've chosen to go on the bashing mode. Even if you were the sage, going on a holy crusade to wipe out newbies isn't going to win you any friends.

You keep referring to a benchmark test that assesses deinterlacing and core video performance, not analog audio output. The bottom line is that you know nothing about SACD and DVD-A and came in here making a strong recommendation, based on you reading a VIDEO benchmark.

I'm not on a holy crusade against newbies.....YOU'RE the one who questioned my post! Coming in here with strong posts about topics you know nothing about isn't going to win you any friends either.

Enough of this crap though, we shouldn't be cluttering this thread with this....I suggest we use PMs for any further dialog...

Sorry for borrowing this post!

Can I connect for example a Oppo 970H with only Left and Right from the 5.1 analog out to my reciever?

My 5.1 analog on my reciever is already plugged to my HD-DVD player....

Can i Still play SACD´s and DVD-Audio? I am only interested in getting 2 channel output from the SACD´s...

Am I missing something?

Yes it should work, you can also select 2 ch at the "downmix" menu, in that case anything you play will be limited to 2 ch output[via analog].

I like the Marantz 7600 which will give you excellent video and audio. The 6600 is pretty good, but the audio section isn't as good as the 7600.

So, to summarize, getting a universal player with better audio "chips" and better processing of the audio signal than found on an entry-level player, and using the 5.1 channel analog connection from new player to existing AVR, is probably the most cost-effective "path"

I'm researching buying a new home theater system, and I've been struggling to understand the different options for connecting a universal player. This is the best post I've seen yet explaining the issue.

If I could ask a related follow-up, if purchasing a new system from the beginning is having a denon-link or i-link connection always preferable to the 5.1 analog connection?

The parts I'm looking at are a Rotel 1057 receiver and a Denon 2930CI. Would I be better off with a Denon receiver with denon-link? From everything I've read here and elsewhere the Rotel's are great but it doesn't have the Denon proprietary connection...

I'm researching buying a new home theater system, and I've been struggling to understand the different options for connecting a universal player. This is the best post I've seen yet explaining the issue.

If I could ask a related follow-up, if purchasing a new system from the beginning is having a denon-link or i-link connection always preferable to the 5.1 analog connection?

The parts I'm looking at are a Rotel 1057 receiver and a Denon 2930CI. Would I be better off with a Denon receiver with denon-link? From everything I've read here and elsewhere the Rotel's are great but it doesn't have the Denon proprietary connection...

No, ilink is not always better. This arguement applies to standard CD players with 2.0 output going thru coax/optical as well. Basically there are players be it stereo or multichannel that have a higher quality output thru the analog connection. They have higher quality capacitors, DACs and other parts of higher quality than cheap players. The best connection is staright/direct to the amplifier stage. If you have an older player or bottom of the line, then a digital connection will most often sound better plus with a digital connection you can engage your receiver DSP processing for simulated surround Pro Logic, DTS, Hall, Church etc. This all stays digital while if you do this with the 5.1 or 2.0 analog hookup you are converting to digital and analog in an extra step. Ilink connection may also convert SACD DSD to PCM potentially decreasing the quality but again you may have more options as far as post processing the digital signal thru your amplifier. I question the need for Ilink other than hookup convenience on high end players because you bypass the quality analog stages these players have and end up never using them. Now if Denon had an all digital receiver.......That is another story. If your prepro or receiver has Logic 7.....That is another story as well.

Bottom line decide by comparison with your ears.

Nope, you've got me there. I have compared my Denon 1920 and my 2900. The 2900 sounds better to me (considering I bought the 2900 used for $400 and the 1920 brand new, not much of an expenditure bias there).

I'll have to go back and search for the posts you mentioned. I will certainly retract my comments on the PCM conversion if they are erroneous. Thanks for the info.
I have compared the Denon 2200 to the Oppo universal player. I heard so many nice things about the Oppo, I was hoping it could replace my quirky Denon (not only can it not remember where I left off on a DVD, but it's scanning function while listening to audio is unacceptable).

For a $150, its a good value. However, it is inferior in both picture and audio to the Denon. Video was compared with component using a really nice LAT International cable. The Oppo makes things look harsh. For CDs, the Oppo has rolled off highs and what is there is harsh sounding. Its sound staging was poor compared to the Denon. SACD playback with the Oppo had a terrible sound stage.

If you are looking for a cheap universal player, the Oppo fits the bill. If you are looking for good sound and video on a $1k budget, look elsewhere. Try giving Marantz a spin, I no longer trust Denon for quality and reliability. I'm personally going to save up for the new Arcam DV137. It's $2k, but will be worth the wait.

I have compared the Denon 2200 to the Oppo universal player. I heard so many nice things about the Oppo, I was hoping it could replace my quirky Denon (not only can it not remember where I left off on a DVD, but it's scanning function while listening to audio is unacceptable).

For a $150, its a good value. However, it is inferior in both picture and audio to the Denon. Video was compared with component using a really nice LAT International cable. The Oppo makes things look harsh. For CDs, the Oppo has rolled off highs and what is there is harsh sounding. Its sound staging was poor compared to the Denon. SACD playback with the Oppo had a terrible sound stage.

If you are looking for a cheap universal player, the Oppo fits the bill. If you are looking for good sound and video on a $1k budget, look elsewhere. Try giving Marantz a spin, I no longer trust Denon for quality and reliability. I'm personally going to save up for the new Arcam DV137. It's $2k, but will be worth the wait.
I would agree regarding picture right out of the box, but the Oppo can and should be tweeked, with it's many controlls and using Avia, I achieved better picture then with my aging Denon 2900. For 2 ch CD and I agree it was no comparison, but MC stuff was extremelly close to me.For 1/4 of the price that was quiet an achievement from Oppo.

FOR the OP

The Denon 3910 can be had for <$1000 brand new at Vanns.com (authorized dealer)

Oppo? Pioneer 588?

You guys are deluded if you think that the analog output of either of those players is as good as the players in the $1k+ range....because it's not.

EVERY player that's not a Sony converts DSD to PCM for processing. I doubt the conversion in a decent player has much of an effect on sound quality....certainly less of an effect than not using delay or bass management!
There's evidence that shows SACD gets a sonic improvement by converting the DSD to PCM.

see: http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/sacd-dvd-a/index.html

Personally, I bought an Oppo 970HD for a universal player for SACD and DVD-A. I don't care much about using it for video. I plan on using the HDMI output so I can get 5.1 digital out and use the DACs and processing in the Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi that I'm getting soon. I couldn't justify spending ~$300 for a refurbished Yamaha S2500 to get iLink to use with the 84TXSi just for SACD and DVD-A playback, but $150 for the Oppo was much more reasonable.

I just bought an Oppo 970HD also for upstairs in the bedroom as a source for a headphone amp and headphones. I purchased the AKG K701s and the Musical Fidelity X-Can V3 headphone amplifiers at the same time for a complete headphone setup with the Oppo.

I was choosing between the Marantz DV 7600 (around $800 USD) and the Oppo and decided I didn't need another expensive player right now since I already have the Denon DVD-5910 and the Ayre C-5xe for universal playback. When I upgrade one of thoe other units I'll move the Denon up to the bedroom, but until then the Oppo should be fine. I don't know if anyone has compared the Marantz and the Oppo, if so, it would be nice to hear an opinion.

Ack. It doesn't appear that you can play SACD and DVD-A using two channel analog on the Oppo. It looks like I might have to switch my order to the Marantz. Oh well, this means no HDCD in the bedroom unless I use the Denon into the bedroom and switch the Marantz into my basement system...

Am I missing something.............
YES, you are.

You shouldn't really post about that which you apparently know nothing about.

Ack. It doesn't appear that you can play SACD and DVD-A using two channel analog on the Oppo. It looks like I might have to switch my order to the Marantz. Oh well, this means no HDCD in the bedroom unless I use the Denon into the bedroom and switch the Marantz into my basement system...
How do you figure that it can't do 2 channel analog?

I just bought an Oppo 970HD also for upstairs in the bedroom as a source for a headphone amp and headphones. I purchased the AKG K701s and the Musical Fidelity X-Can V3 headphone amplifiers at the same time for a complete headphone setup with the Oppo.

I was choosing between the Marantz DV 7600 (around $800 USD) and the Oppo and decided I didn't need another expensive player right now since I already have the Denon DVD-5910 and the Ayre C-5xe for universal playback. When I upgrade one of thoe other units I'll move the Denon up to the bedroom, but until then the Oppo should be fine. I don't know if anyone has compared the Marantz and the Oppo, if so, it would be nice to hear an opinion.

the NuForce website says the Oppo is nearly as good as the Marantz SA11S1.

and there should be a way to set the Oppo to output 2-channel SACD. i'm almost certain.

and there should be a way to set the Oppo to output 2-channel SACD. i'm almost certain.
You can set it to play back the 2 channel version from the SACD layer (assuming a hybrid), which is why I don't understand his comment. I believe it can also downmix a 5.1 DVD-A or SACD to 2 channels as well, but that isn't needed since they both have stereo on them.

This is why I don't understand his comment.

I think he uses the 2 ch analog output as oppose to the L and R of the MC outputs.

I think he uses the 2 ch analog output as oppose to the L and R of the MC outputs.
It doesn't matter though...

I just tried it on my 970HD. It will downmix the 5.1 mix from a SACD or DVD-A and pass them from both the stereo output and front left / front right (MC outputs) on the player. CD audio will also come from both.

It doesn't matter though...

I just tried it on my 970HD. It will downmix the 5.1 mix from a SACD or DVD-A and pass them from both the stereo output and front left / front right (MC outputs) on the player. CD audio will also come from both.

for what it's worth NuForce also says the front L/R MC outputs are better than the mixed L/R outputs on the 970.

for what it's worth NuForce also says the front L/R MC outputs are better than the mixed L/R outputs on the 970.
I'd bet they're wired together.

I checked with a multimeter and they are indeed connected together.

It doesn't matter though...

I just tried it on my 970HD. It will downmix the 5.1 mix from a SACD or DVD-A and pass them from both the stereo output and front left / front right (MC outputs) on the player. CD audio will also come from both.

I hear ya, I was posting the same thing earlier too, maybe he's got something set up incorrectly.

I checked with a multimeter and they are indeed connected together.

well that makes sense. that recommendation from NuForce is apparently hogwash.

Ack. It doesn't appear that you can play SACD and DVD-A using two channel analog on the Oppo.

Why not? Surely it has working 6-channel analog outputs?

[Edit: Sorry, I didn't notice the second page full of responses...]

So it will output stereo downmixes of DVD-A and SACD on the analog stereo outputs? I don't own the unit yet and was basing my comments on a review I read which implied that SACD and DVD-A were only outputted in 5.1. I cancelled my order and decided to use my Denon DVD-5910 temporarily since I am not currently using it in my HT, so it is not an issue anyway until next year.

So it will output stereo downmixes of DVD-A and SACD on the analog stereo outputs? I don't own the unit yet and was basing my comments on a review I read which implied that SACD and DVD-A were only outputted in 5.1. I cancelled my order and decided to use my Denon DVD-5910 temporarily since I am not currently using it in my HT, so it is not an issue anyway until next year.

I'm looking for a definitive answer to this question, too. I (mistakenly?) assumed that high-resolution audio could only be outputted via multichannel outputs, but that doesn't make sense as there are some two-channel only SACD players on the market. (Not many, but they're out there.)

My particular universal player (Cambridge Audio DVD87) screws up the bass management on stereo only DVD-A discs, so I hooked up the universal player's analog stereo outputs to my receiver's Vid 1 inputs in the hope that this will be a way I can enjoy proper bass management--via my AVR--on stereo only DVD-A discs.

I just want to be sure that the signal from the player's analog stereo outputs is the same high-resolution signal as the one from its multichannel outputs.

The answers to all your questions are already in this thread. I confirmed that it (Oppo 970HD) will play a 2 channel mixdown from 5.1 DVD-A or 5.1 SACD from the front left & front right outputs and the 2 channel (main) outputs. Furthermore, it doesn't matter because all DVD-As and SACDs have a 2 channel mix on them, so you don't need to mixdown to 2.0 from 5.1 because you can play 2.0 from the discs.

The analog stereo outputs appear to be wired directly to the front left / front right outputs. I checked with a multimeter and they measure out at 1 ohm.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter because all DVD-As and SACDs have a 2 channel mix on them, so you don't need to mixdown to 2.0 from 5.1 because you can play 2.0 from the discs.

According to sources such as Wikipedia, a 2 channel mix is required by the SACD standard (actually, only the 2 channel mix is required on SACD, the 5.1 or other multichannel is optional). But not by the DVD-Audio standard.

Question for those familiar with DVD-Audio: how common are releases without a 2-channel high-resolution mix? Maybe that is unusual even though technically allowed by the standard.

The answers to all your questions are already in this thread. I confirmed that it (Oppo 970HD) will play a 2 channel mixdown from 5.1 DVD-A or 5.1 SACD from the front left & front right outputs and the 2 channel (main) outputs. Furthermore, it doesn't matter because all DVD-As and SACDs have a 2 channel mix on them, so you don't need to mixdown to 2.0 from 5.1 because you can play 2.0 from the discs.

The analog stereo outputs appear to be wired directly to the front left / front right outputs. I checked with a multimeter and they measure out at 1 ohm.

So, are you saying that if I used my ext in on my Denon AVR to get to the L/R MC outputs and put my Denon in stereo mode, I would get stereo over those two channels? Or are you saying you would hook your 2 channel audio cables from those outputs into a 2 channel input on the receiver?

So, are you saying that if I used my ext in on my Denon AVR to get to the L/R MC outputs and put my Denon in stereo mode, I would get stereo over those two channels? Or are you saying you would hook your 2 channel audio cables from those outputs into a 2 channel input on the receiver?

(Excuse me for jumping in here.) Either one. I've tried playing 2ch sources (CD & SACD) through the 5.1 cables and through stereo cables. Some players, amps, and/or receivers might have better hardware in one or the other paths. I slightly prefer the sound through the stereo cables, but that could be my imagination.

Doug

(Excuse me for jumping in here.) Either one. I've tried playing 2ch sources (CD & SACD) through the 5.1 cables and through stereo cables. Some players, amps, and/or receivers might have better hardware in one or the other paths. I slightly prefer the sound through the stereo cables, but that could be my imagination.

Doug

Hi Doug,

No need to be excused, buddy. I appreciate the response! :) I was just confused by the statements in the thread and was asking for some clarification. Anyway, I have the Denon 4802 receiver and had never tried to listen to a CD through my 5.1 cables before. Will that work? And if so, I suppose what the prior posters were saying is that the sound was beter in the MC L/R channels than in the down-mixed stereo channels. Now my receiver has a Pure Direct mode that I use when I have it in stereo to listen to CDs, which shuts off all video circuitry. The Oppo 970 also has an "audio only" mode which shuts off all video circuitry in the player, too. Can the 4802, going through its "External In" mode for 5.1 analog sound be placed in Pure Direct mode as well?

Jack

Yes. By default, the only processing that occurs to the External in on Denons is channel balancing and the master volume control.

I listen to CDs, SACDs, and DVD-As using the 5.1 connection -- player does the channel level/delay and BM, Denon receiver only serves as volume control.

Yes. By default, the only processing that occurs to the External in on Denons is channel balancing and the master volume control.

I listen to CDs, SACDs, and DVD-As using the 5.1 connection -- player does the channel level/delay and BM, Denon receiver only serves as volume control.

Hey, thanks for responding, Rynberg. Hmm. So If I use the 5.1 connection for CDs, SACDs, and DVD-As, then I would need to set the channel level and delay for the player. Currently, for Dolby Digital and DTS, the delay is set in the player. Would these figures work as well for the CDs, etc.?

Also, in the player, should I set it for stereo whenever I play CDs or put it into an automatic mode (i.e. the player chooses the mode based on the software)?

Hi Doug,

No need to be excused, buddy. I appreciate the response! :) I was just confused by the statements in the thread and was asking for some clarification. Anyway, I have the Denon 4802 receiver and had never tried to listen to a CD through my 5.1 cables before. Will that work?
It sure will.
And if so, I suppose what the prior posters were saying is that the sound was beter in the MC L/R channels than in the down-mixed stereo channels.
It depends on the hardware and on your preferences. Compare the two and see which one you prefer. BTW, the stereo channels won't be downmixing anything if you use them for 2-channel sources (e.g. CD or the stereo layer of an SACD).
Now my receiver has a Pure Direct mode that I use when I have it in stereo to listen to CDs, which shuts off all video circuitry. The Oppo 970 also has an "audio only" mode which shuts off all video circuitry in the player, too. Can the 4802, going through its "External In" mode for 5.1 analog sound be placed in Pure Direct mode as well?

Jack

I don't know how that particular equipment works, but I use pure direct in my Pioneer 59AVi when playing music so it shuts off its video circuitry. My Marantz 7400 doesn't have that feature.

Doug

Hey, thanks for responding, Rynberg. Hmm. So If I use the 5.1 connection for CDs, SACDs, and DVD-As, then I would need to set the channel level and delay for the player. Currently, for Dolby Digital and DTS, the delay is set in the player. Would these figures work as well for the CDs, etc.?

Also, in the player, should I set it for stereo whenever I play CDs or put it into an automatic mode (i.e. the player chooses the mode based on the software)?

I use a digital connection for DD/DTS and let the receiver handle that. I do this partially so I can have separate subwoofer levels for music and movies.

The player recognizes the type of disc and adjusts accordingly. It will only send 2.0 or 2.1 through your 5.1 connection. I presume that your player will employ BM for stereo CD sources like my Denon 2900 does.

Maybe it's just me, but to think "ANALOG AUDIO" is the overriding factor in deciding on a DVD player is just outright silly.

The original poster stated he's looking for a universal player and video is not important. SACD is an analog format. I'd say analog audio is indeed going to be an overriding factor.

I have a 1.5 year old Marantz DV7600, and the sound quality is fabulous, especially SACD. If music is your passion, you'd do well to audition the Marantz line. Excellent video performance on my model is simply an added bonus.

SACD is an analog format.It is?

It is?

Uh, er - I guess that was not the right way of putting what I was thinking about, come to think of it. I know that SACD does not output a digital audio signal on my (and I'm guessing everyone's) universal player. But it does not follow that it is the result of SACD being an analog format.

I know that SACD does not output a digital audio signal on my (and I'm guessing everyone's) universal player. But it does not follow that it is the result of SACD being an analog format.

Actually, as I think was indicated elsewhere in this thread, SACD *can* be output digitally. Some players (such as the Oppo) can output a digital SACD signal over a HDMI connection. Others (like the higher end Sony players) can output SACD digitally over an iLink connection.

I use a digital connection for DD/DTS and let the receiver handle that. I do this partially so I can have separate subwoofer levels for music and movies.

The player recognizes the type of disc and adjusts accordingly. It will only send 2.0 or 2.1 through your 5.1 connection. I presume that your player will employ BM for stereo CD sources like my Denon 2900 does.

Cool! Thanks again for your quick response! :) Jack

Geez - maybe I should stick to other threads. :o

Absolutely correct. I should have added the caveat that as long as your version of HDMI is above 1.1 (I believe), the player will output the DSD information associated with SACD. My Marantz DV7600 has an earlier version of HDMI and will therefore not output digital audio at all. Discovered this yesterday when trying to connect the DV7600 with a new Marantz SR8001 AVR (HDMI 1.2). Has nothing to do with the receiver, but the version of HDMI in the player is key.

All of which is to say that analog audio output is REALLY important (to me, anyway)!!

Actually, as I think was indicated elsewhere in this thread, SACD *can* be output digitally. Some players (such as the Oppo) can output a digital SACD signal over a HDMI connection. Others (like the higher end Sony players) can output SACD digitally over an iLink connection.