Is the XBOX 360 HD-DVD add on drive going to be compatible with Dolby True HD and DTS-HD?

I doubt it. Again the 360 system doesn't even support it.

I doubt it

Why?

the new codecs are for HDMI 1.3.....no HDMI output from the player

Also, The answer to your question was actually given to you when the 360 was released. The audio specs for 360 don't include Dolby True HD and DTS-HD.

Also, The answer to your question was actually given to you when the 360 was released. The audio specs for 360 don't include Dolby True HD and DTS-HD.

You have a valid point, but don't forget that HD-DVD support was also not in the specs when the 360 was released... isn't it at least possible that Dolby True HD and DTS-HD will be supported with the HD-DVD add on? Does anybody have any concrete proof?

You have a valid point, but don't forget that HD-DVD support was also not in the specs when the 360 was released... isn't it at least possible that Dolby True HD and DTS-HD will be supported with the HD-DVD add on? Does anybody have any concrete proof?

Nope and no one will officially know until about a month from now. When MS does the official product roll out and Amirm gets to do the PR tour, we will find out all about the 360 + addon capabilities. Until then its all speculation....

More than likely it won't support it. It will probably only support regular DTS and regular DD.

According to Amir, Microsoft VP over the division which is making the Xbox 360 addon player (not the drive, the actual player, which is a software player) it will support all the audio codecs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8207376&&#post8207376) in the hd-dvd spec, including the advanced Codecs:

Yes, it will be compliant with the peak rate of all codecs, including 60i decode which requires even more CPU cycles than 24p. There are no dedicated hardware for this functionality. We use the main processing cores plus the GPU as appropriate (you may have seen or press release with ATI on the latter).

We will also have the full compliment of audio codecs per spec. And of course, support things like PiP and high performance iHD rendering.

unfortunately he is still a bit tight lipped on some specs. His answers seem a bit vague. I guess we'll know soon enough

I am sorry but I can't talk about the connectivity on 360. What I can say is that we will decode TrueHD.

As to your last comment, there will clearly be people who will be more satisfied with a stand-alone player than a game console of either type. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. If all you want is HD playback, a stand-alone product will be a more optimal solution.

This is not a reflection of the core A/V capabilities of the 360 which may even exceed what a stand-alone player can do....

My own personal solution is a stand-alone player in our dedicated theater and family room and the 360 for kids in their room.

According to Amir, Microsoft VP over the division which is making the Xbox 360 addon player (not the drive, the actual player, which is a software player) it will support all the audio codecs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8207376&&#post8207376) in the hd-dvd spec, including the advanced Codecs:

Good information! So... does this tell us that it is POSSIBLE that Dolby True HD and DTS-HD will work off of the HD-DVD drive, but to take advantage of it we will need a new receiver that has Dolby True HD and DTS-HD on it?

that's what I'm curious about as well. Can those work over optical? Or do they get decoded then scale down in a way to go over optical.. Of course if it has HDMI then I'm sure that will be fine, but if it doens't?

The new codecs would have to be down-sampled when played via optical or coaxial SPDIF.

The new codecs would have to be down-sampled over optical and coaxial SPDIF.

I see, thanks. Hopefully HDMI happens then. Though I'm not sure I still wouldn't buy it if it didn't. Price is a big factor.

You can play Dolby TrueHD over HDMI 1.1 or later version or over analog outputs which the Toshiba player has. Your surround sound receiver needs to have analog inputs or HDMI input though. Luckily my reciever does have analog inputs, but the question is whether the 360 add-on will have analog outputs. DD+ can be played over optical at the intended kbps but Dolby TrueHD would be downsampled as the poster above mentioned. Click on the Dolby TrueHD link at the top of the page where the sponsors are to read about TrueHD.

I wonder why they wouldn't just send the signal via optical? It seems like it should be able to handle the signal.

About a year or so back Microsoft stated that the 360 would have HDMI "when the time is right"...What better than time than now w/ the HD-DVD...Unless they mean when it gets repackaged years downs the line.

About a year or so back Microsoft stated that the 360 would have HDMI "when the time is right"...What better than time than now w/ the HD-DVD...Unless they mean when it gets repackaged years downs the line.

I agree the time is right, though I have yet to hear anything recent with all the HD-DVD add-on talks to suggest that they will have it. During the recent Major Nelson podcast interview discussing the HD-DVD add-on they pretty much danced around it saying something along the lines:

-it doesn't really matter what connection you use
- of all tv's have component but not all have HDMI/DVI, it d
-HDMI is just another port, it's another way to plug video in your TV, instead of 3 cable there's just 1 square-rectangle cable
-

This is from June 05:

Todd Holmdahl: Xbox 360 will support HD component video output, which is compatible with nearly every HD-ready TV on the market today. We’re poised to hit the sweet spot of the HD market at launch and as the market matures, and we will provide an HDMI for our customers when it makes sense. The reality is, you don’t need HDMI for HD gaming.

http://interviews.teamxbox.com/xbox/1190/Xbox-360-Interview-Todd-Holmdahl/p1/

-HDMI is just another port, it's another way to plug video in your TV, instead of 3 cable there's just 1 square-rectangle cable


haha :D I can't believe they said something so crazy, wow!

haha :D I can't believe they said something so crazy, wow!

I can, though I would more expect it from somebody like Peter Moore, lol

Will the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add on drive be able to up-convert normal DVD's like the stand alone Toshiba HD-DVD drive does?

DD+ can be played over optical at the intended kbps

Not with currently available HD DVD players you can't. To get even DD+ working you need to use 5.1 analog outputs or HDMI.

Optical out does not support the new audio codecs.

Not with currently available HD DVD players you can't. To get even DD+ working you need to use 5.1 analog outputs or HDMI.

Optical out does not support the new audio codecs.

Yeah, I read Dolby's site wrong. My bad.

Does anyone have a picture of this thing because they just demostrated the player a couple of days ago I believe. I still don't get why their is all this talk about HDMI possibly being added. I ain't happening. Microsoft made that statement before and after the launch about the reasons why they didn't see the need for HDMI. No HDMI port is on the back of the HD-DVD and whats next someone thinks they are going to make a USB-HDMI cable next? I guess we will hear when they make the announcement but if this thing is coming in by USB and we already know it doesn't have analog outputs on it(everyone keeps forgetting it is only connecting by usb to the 360) then why do we see it possible to get DD+ if it is being stated you can't even get it through fiberoptic which is going to be your connection for Digital surround. I will ask this, is it possible to update the sound board for the 360 to allow DD+ since it has never been announce the capablity was their before? If not then why do we see it magically happening with the HD-DVD drive that is connecting by USB to the 360?

Will the Xbox 360 HD-DVD add on drive be able to up-convert normal DVD's like the stand alone Toshiba HD-DVD drive does?

This is asked quite frequently. The answer is no. The DVD consortium does not permit DVDs to be upsampled over a component connection. I've read on this forum that the 360 upconverts over VGA, but I can't vouch for it.

This is asked quite frequently. The answer is no. The DVD consortium does not permit DVDs to be upsampled over a component connection. I've read on this forum that the 360 upconverts over VGA, but I can't vouch for it.

It does upconvert over VGA (it does a pretty decent job at it too, but the noise of the unit is pretty distracting during playback).

IIRC the 360 HD drive will perform the same as the 360 in this regard. Also, the Toshiba will not upconvert SD DVD over component, but will via HDMI (I'll throw in this has never made sense to me since full-rez 1080i via component from HD DVD disks is OK, but that's life with the way DVD is right now).

I'm glad they will internally decode the advanced audio codecs, but how they will get that out of the box remains to be seen. Mix and transcode (downsample) to DTS/DD is one option (what the toshiba does today if you use spdif). Decode + HDMI to get PCM and output that to a AVR that will take HDMI PCM (requires HDMI outs from the 360- likely not going to happen). HDMI 1.3 straight out with no decode in the 360 (needs HDMI 1.3, not likely). Finally a 5.1 analog breakout cable could do the trick to (internal decode at the mercy of the DACs used, likely not high quality as this is a low-cost game console option).

If I had to guess, I'd guess they will release a 5.1 analog break-out cable, and they will transcode to spdif out with the regular A/V out dongles currently available for the unit.

The most shocking thing to me at this point would be the release of a HDMI output on the 360. I'd be floored. If they could do it, it would have already been announced IMO.

This is asked quite frequently. The answer is no. The DVD consortium does not permit DVDs to be upsampled over a component connection. I've read on this forum that the 360 upconverts over VGA, but I can't vouch for it.

Over VGA, yup. Also over a network if you stream.

How much will this drvie cost?

How much will this drvie cost?

The rumored price of the drvie is $199.

Over VGA, yup. Also over a network if you stream.Are you saying that they won't allow upconverted DVD over component but will allow it over VGA? If so, why would they do that? VGA is just analog RGBHV wrapped up with some discrete control signals. It has no protection and would be as easy to record as analog component video (which isn't very easy to record); chances are any such recording would be superior to a recording of component video.

The reason why they've restricted it to DVI-or-HDMI/HDCP is HDCP; the video over those connections is a digital bitstream which is encrypted and will not be sent to any device that can't authenticate itself as being a licensed HDCP sink.

Are you saying that they won't allow upconverted DVD over component but will allow it over VGA? If so, why would they do that? VGA is just analog RGBHV wrapped up with some discrete control signals. It has no protection and would be as easy to record as analog component video (which isn't very easy to record); chances are any such recording would be superior to a recording of component video.

The reason why they've restricted it to DVI-or-HDMI/HDCP is HDCP; the video over those connections is a digital bitstream which is encrypted and will not be sent to any device that can't authenticate itself as being a licensed HDCP sink.
After an update, the 360 has allowed flagged SD DVDs to be upconverted via VGA, but not component.

Also, on the PC, flagged SD DVDs are allowed to be upconverted via VGA, but not component.

This has been explained in a way that VGA is a computer-based connection that follows computer standards, while component video is more of a "video-based" connection that follows "video" standards. In a sense, VGA has gotten a pass when it comes to upconverting flagged SD DVDs.

Are you saying that they won't allow upconverted DVD over component but will allow it over VGA? If so, why would they do that? VGA is just analog RGBHV wrapped up with some discrete control signals. It has no protection and would be as easy to record as analog component video (which isn't very easy to record); chances are any such recording would be superior to a recording of component video.

The reason why they've restricted it to DVI-or-HDMI/HDCP is HDCP; the video over those connections is a digital bitstream which is encrypted and will not be sent to any device that can't authenticate itself as being a licensed HDCP sink.

It's entirely a licensing issue. I don't spend time searching thru license agreements (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/seminar/internet-client/readings/week2/02-08CSS.pdf) but thankfully in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7813602&&#post7813602) a few avsers did cite the actual relavent passages from the DVD license

(2) Higher Resolution Outputs. Absent an amendment to these CSS
Procedural Specifications, DVD Player analog outputs with higher
resolution than standard definition are not authorized to be used for CSS
Video Data, except to the extent that the content encrypted using CSS that
is contained on a particular DVD Disc is itself recorded on that DVD Disc
in a higher resolution and the copy protection information in the data
recorded onto the disc (in the form of CGMS information or information
to trigger the use of the Automatic Gain Control copy protection
technology) affirmatively indicates that no analog copy protection is
intended to be invoked by the content provider, in which case outputs with
resolution equivalent to that recorded onto the DVD Disc are authorized
for such content.

Licensee should be aware that copy protection
technologies and related requirements for higher resolution outputs may
be adopted in the future. At that time, appropriate requirements will be
added to these CSS Procedural Specifications.

The point is that VGA connections are grandfathered due to usage in the PC world:

Section 6.2.8.2(2)(c) covers this, with the following


Quote:
No provision of this Section 6.2 shall be interpreted
to limit the ability of Integrated Products to be connected,
through analog interfaces, with computer monitor display
devices, for example, using RGB, SVGA, VGA, or similar
proprietary video signals, or the ability of Integrated Products
that are in compliance with this Agreement to display on
such monitor display devices content originally encrypted
using CSS.

The point is that VGA connections are grandfathered due to usage in the PC world:"Grandfathered in"? Is this ban on upconversion over YPrPb a revision of the original CSS license? Whatever. To disallow upconverted video to flow over one unprotected analog output and to permit it to flow over another is profoundly useless. They might as well remove the restriction on output through YPrPb, since its purpose is completely circumvented.

And they used to worry about the "analog hole"; this VGA loophole is the Grand Canyon in comparison. (Not that I ever understood their concern over the "theft" of upconverted standard-definition content).

you are preaching to the choir, but that's the lay of the land.

as further proof of the retarded nature of this agreement I give you full res HD via component (and VGA)...

I've looked on the Dolby website, and I haven't found an answer to this question....

What's the difference between Dolby Digital Plus & Dolby TrueHD ?

I have the Toshiba HDDVD player currently, and the peak audio you can get over optical/coax digital out is 1.5mbps DTS, digital can't go any faster than that. For TrueHD or dolby digital+ you need Analog 6 channel out (what I use) or HDMI 1.3 (even the current toshiba doesn't have this), xbox 360 definetly doesn't support HDMI 1.3, so I'm guessing all HDDVD sound will be downsampled to 1.5mbps DTS (it's what the toshiba does when using digital out).

This really shouldn't be that big of a deal, 1.5 DTS still sounds amazing, and if you want all the features HDDVD has to offer you'd be best buying the stand alone player and not an add on. The stand alone player can be had for 400$ currently. It's an amazing buy.

What's the difference between Dolby Digital Plus & Dolby TrueHD ?

TrueHD is a lossless compression codec which will be identical to the studio master, it runs about 3-4mbps, dolby digital+ is slightly lossy, which runs above 1.5mbps to about 3mbps peak.

This doesn't make sense. How can the X360 not upconvert DVD's over component, yet it would show up to 1080i HDDVD's over component. What gives?

Also, is it known whether or not the PS3 will have HDMI or not?

This doesn't make sense. How can the X360 not upconvert DVD's over component, yet it would show up to 1080i HDDVD's over component. What gives?

Also, is it known whether or not the PS3 will have HDMI or not?

Upconverting DVDs over component could be done but will not be possible if the designers choose not to allow it. There are still gray areas about upconverting DVDs over component to this day. HD-DVD 1080i over component will currently and in the near future be allowed until restricted some time in the future.

The PS3 (pricer version) will have HDMI 1.3 for sure. There is talk of a lower priced version without it. Unlike the Xbox 360 core system however, this lower priced PS3 would not be upgradeable in a way to make it just like the higher priced version.

Dolby TrueHD, dts-HD, 1080p, internet, java, etc. are just some of the reasons I will be going entirely against what I have done in the past and told friends and family not to do: I will be getting gaming consoles to watch movies.

New HD-DVD players with HDMI 1.3, 1080p, TrueHD and dts-HD support will soon be released in Europe - making their current US counterparts poor cousins indeed. Developments like this and others have made my mind up to get into each format cheaply and start enjoying them sooner than later. Then, down the road purchase a dedicated player.

Another thing I will be doing differently from the past is renting movies on disc instead of buying them. I have a large DVD collection and like collecting in general but see HD-DVD and Blu-ray problematic at best especially with some studios releasing titles in both formats.

So basically, I will be "waiting and seeing" with both formats but still enjoying them both even if in a lesser form on game consoles.

Upconverting DVDs over component could be done but will not be possible if the designers choose not to allow it. There are still gray areas about upconverting DVDs over component to this day. HD-DVD 1080i over component will currently and in the near future be allowed until restricted some time in the future.

There's not really a grey area. Dahlsim posted a link to an old post of mine where I found the relevant sections of the DVD CCA Procedural License which specifically disallows upconversion over component (but allows it over VGA, the hypocrisy of which has already been pointed out). The only reason people are confused is because there are players that do not adhere to the licensing, but with CSS there isn't much the DVD CCA can do except sue the manufacturer. We won't see this sort of behavior with HD-DVD or Blu-Ray (i.e., not respecting the ICT), because the CCA there has the ability to blacklist the player or even the manufacturer.

New HD-DVD players with HDMI 1.3, 1080p, TrueHD and dts-HD support will soon be released in Europe - making their current US counterparts poor cousins indeed.

HDMI 1.3 isn't an essential, unless you have a reciever that decodes TrueHD via HDMI (those are pretty much unicorns right now).

1080p, also not a big deal, if your 1080p display can properly de-interlace 1080i (most can't, which is why I don't own one yet) you will get full 1080p from the toshiba, since all HDDVDs are 1080p. If you don't own a 1080p set, this feature is useless.

TrueHD and DTS-HD are already supported on the current toshiba, I watched Constantine in trueHD last night. The spec for DTS-HD was just finalized, no movies available and no movies slated for release are even using it yet.

Poor cousin? hardly, the build quality and versatility on the current players will be better than any of the G2 players coming out, especially features like analog 6 channel which are axed from the G2 players, which will force you to buy an HDMI capable receiver to even get trueHD.

The 360 add on wasn't even an option for me, it will cost too much (unless it's 150 or less), the 360's sound limitations will hinder it, why watch HD movies without the sound to match? the real deal will only cost around 200 dollars more.

However if MSFT can price it at 149 or less, they could sell a bunch of the things to joe six pack movie watchers for sure. If it costs too much I doubt it will sell, the current toshibas are only 399 online and will dwarf the 360 drive in features and versatility.

HDMI 1.3 isn't an essential, unless you have a reciever that decodes TrueHD via HDMI (those are pretty much unicorns right now).

1080p, also not a big deal, if your 1080p display can properly de-interlace 1080i (most can't, which is why I don't own one yet) you will get full 1080p from the toshiba, since all HDDVDs are 1080p. If you don't own a 1080p set, this feature is useless.

TrueHD and DTS-HD are already supported on the current toshiba, I watched Constantine in trueHD last night. The spec for DTS-HD was just finalized, no movies available and no movies slated for release are even using it yet.

Poor cousin? hardly, the build quality and versatility on the current players will be better than any of the G2 players coming out, especially features like analog 6 channel which are axed from the G2 players, which will force you to buy an HDMI capable receiver to even get trueHD.

The 360 add on wasn't even an option for me, it will cost too much (unless it's 150 or less), the 360's sound limitations will hinder it, why watch HD movies without the sound to match? the real deal will only cost around 200 dollars more.

However if MSFT can price it at 149 or less, they could sell a bunch of the things to joe six pack movie watchers for sure. If it costs too much I doubt it will sell, the current toshibas are only 399 online and will dwarf the 360 drive in features and versatility.


Thanks for the TrueHD and dts-HD info on the HD-DVD players here in the US, I didn't know that.

As for the current versions though, having TrueHD and dts-HD and 1080p over HDMI is prefered by me. I have a good 1080p display (not HDMI 1.3 deep color but still quite good, especially at 1080i-to-1080p, etc.). Also, I will be upgrading to a HDMI 1.3 A/V Receiver anyway. Until then, my point is that I will 'rough it' (i.e. inferior sound, etc.) with cheaper game console players until HD-DVD and Blu-ray players are released with the features I WANT (i.e. 1080p, TrueHD, dts-HD, etc. over HDMI). So HDMI 1.3 will be essential TO ME.

P.S. They gray area of DVD upconversion is gray because of what manufacturers do and not black and white like the rules set out about it are. :)

As to the TrueHD sound quality, are we realy talking about a difference to the average home theatre setup or is the difference going to be heard in actual dedicated rooms? For instance, When I went from watching DVD's to HD DVD's the difference was VERY obvious to me. Will it be the same going from Dolby Digital to TrueHD?

It depends on how well you can hear. In my right ear I can hear up to 18.5Khz but only up to 14.5KHz in my left ear. I can easily hear a difference in from right ear but it is harder to detect with my left ear.

It depends on how well you can hear. In my right ear I can hear up to 18.5Khz but only up to 14.5KHz in my left ear. I can easily hear a difference from right ear but it is harder to detect with my left ear.