Well, fellow 42HDS69 owners, I have some good news and some bad news regarding our “flicker” issue…and I won’t even call it dark or black flicker anymore, because I have now identified the issue during “light” or normal lighting scenes as well. As previously reported, I had just started really watching programming on my set after 100 hours of nothing but break-in DVD; I watched some Finding Nemo last night, looking diligently for any sign of flicker and detected none. Then some of Jackie Brown Collectors Edition and I started to see some evidence of what everyone has been talking about. Tonight…and here is the “good” news: for those of you who have tried to demonstrate this issue to a technician and failed, I think I have the demo disc for you…I watched Disc 1, Side A, of Season 1 of The West Wing and there were these, what I can only describe as shifts of contrast, all over the place. If you’re not familiar with the show, I think it really exploits this issue because as characters move around inside the White House, the subtleties of light change quickly and all you need to do is look at colors on the walls to see that the set is struggling to decide which picture to display. I know that sounds confusing, so let me see if I can explain it this way: imagine you have say 4 stills of a scene and each still has a different contrast setting and that may, in turn, effect hues and colors in the still. It seems that as a character moves into a different room or light, the set is throwing up 1 still, with 1 setting and then deciding “no, maybe this is the proper way to display the picture” and the still changes and I have seen examples where, within like 1 seconds time, if you just look at the color of a wall, the picture contrast, hue, color, seem to change 4 times or so before it settles down. I don’t know the way some of the technical aspects work, but does this sound like a problem with the sets de-interlacer? Like I said, the only good news I can think of is I am SURE I can demonstrate the issue on my set to a Hitachi technician and maybe we can get some kind of answer on the problem. If it can’t be fixed, my set will be going back; whether my issue is more severe than some, or if certain types of programming just bring it out more than others, I cannot say, but I can’t live with the picture anomaly.

I started this thread because it has previously been mixed in with the general Hitachi postings, good and bad, but I think those of us trying to decide how to resolve this issue or return these sets, should be able to follow a thread specifically dedicated to this very troubling issue.

CD

as long as the situation has been around, and still no cure, you'd think there isnt one. I was into the hitachi as a future purchase, but that might change now. Another poster commented in another thread that alis panels are garbage. I wouldnt go as far to say its garbage, but this model seems to have a huge drawback to the extra resoution with interlaced flicker. Im holding out to see if there are any reports of flicker on the 42hdt79 and x99 sets, then ill decide to go another way or not.

if thats the Flicker porblem I saw it at the store. Thre was a blue grdiant background in a seen with some color banding. The color banding was in th source cause all displays showed it. However some handld it better then others, the hitatchi would shift very noticably where the disting jump in the color banding was, while the other displays didn't seem to do this. Is this what you are seeing?

as long as the situation has been around, and still no cure, you'd think there isnt one. I was into the hitachi as a future purchase, but that might change now. Another poster commented in another thread that alis panels are garbage. I wouldnt go as far to say its garbage, but this model seems to have a huge drawback to the extra resoution with interlaced flicker. Im holding out to see if there are any reports of flicker on the 42hdt79 and x99 sets, then ill decide to go another way or not.

Sounds like you're looking for something you will absolutely not find in a flat panel tv. Perfection. Perhaps you might be better off purchasing a Sony CRT? Plasma technology has a little longer to go before all of the kinks are worked out. BTW, as stated on another thread I have the 55" Fujitsu based on the Hitachi e-alis panel - no flicker. Blacks can be weak sometimes but that's it.

I looked at our display 42" hitachi today and im sure i see what you guys are talking about. Instead of a rather stable black image or shadows, it 'flickers' with other colors in a dark shade. At viewing distance i dont think this is noticeable as i dont see it on the 55" but its visible up close. Understandably, nobody wants to pay thousands of dollars for a plasma that wont perform the way it should given their 16 bit, 281 trillion color boasts. I guess thats where the rest of the colors are coming from. :D

No flicker with my Hitachi 42".

What I do notice sometimes is the auto contrast adjustment tacking place in some dark scenes but that is a feature of the TV.

I have a two year old Hitachi edtv and had the "auto contrast" happening. It might be a feature of the tv, but it is ugly and distracting. I was ready to take the set back until I discovered it only happened if I left it on the "daytime" setting. There's no problem at all if I leave the tv to the more natural "night" setting.

It is my understanding you all are getting this issue when you take it out of the daytime setting?

Sounds like you're looking for something you will absolutely not find in a flat panel tv. Perfection. Perhaps you might be better off purchasing a Sony CRT? Plasma technology has a little longer to go before all of the kinks are worked out. BTW, as stated on another thread I have the 55" Fujitsu based on the Hitachi e-alis panel - no flicker. Blacks can be weak sometimes but that's it.


you ever layed thousands of dollars down on something you didnt expect to be near perfection? otherwise you wouldnt be purchasing the set. Im not asking for perfection. Im simply stating that annoying flicker is something i would warrant a no purchase on. Am i supposed to find perfection within lcd, dlp, or crt? Crt too small, dlp is blah to me and i already have an lcd. So where do i find this so called "perfection"?

you ever layed thousands of dollars down on something you didnt expect to be near perfection? Im not asking for perfection. Im simply stating that annoying flicker is something i would warrant a no purchase on.

I've posted a few times in your thread you started and I'm not be critical of your decisions, so take this for what its worth. But what I've experienced from my first plasma choice to my current Sharp LCD. I believe your looking for greener pastures and boy are you in for a suprise. I've read where your disappointed with your Sharp but also have posted you loved it. My experience was frustration (plasma) and I'm sure you haven't had to adjust your Sharp much, but with a plasma let the adjusting begin. And between plasma and LCD, like Optivity said "Pick your Poison".

No flicker with my Hitachi 42".

What I do notice sometimes is the auto contrast adjustment tacking place in some dark scenes but that is a feature of the TV.
I would almost buy this explanation (and at this point I am looking for an answer, rather than an excuse to send it back) as it sounds exactly as I explained it; at the time I thought maybe it was the most asinine description, but I said in my post earlier "it was almost as if the set were displaying different screens, trying to decide which one looked best". Well, that certainly sounds like this Auto Contrast adjustment that you describe. The reason I can't accept this completely is I have seen instances where a scene looked light, like the contrast was washing the picture out, so it quickly switched to where the image looked darker, with more contrast...and better, so maybe the set should have stopped "adjusting" right there...but then it would quickly switch lighter, and then maybe darker again; hence the "flicker"...4 or so contrast changes within a second. If this is the way the set auto contrasts, it's a good idea with bad implementation, because it is annoying as hell. I may have a particularly bad set, because like I said, I even see this transition taking place in regular lighting scenes.

I need to watch more before I give up completely. For instance, I've only hooked my 1080i HD cable box up a few times, but I never noticed this issue with that source. Is it because that's mostly highly-hit information or is it maybe the source? My thinking may be way off here, but my DVD player is outputting 480p right now (haven't purchased a HDMI cable to upconvert to 1080i); could the issue be in how the set is converting 480p to 1080i? Others posting to this thread, I'm curious how many sources you see this issue with. One more so than another?

I have a two year old Hitachi edtv and had the "auto contrast" happening. It might be a feature of the tv, but it is ugly and distracting. I was ready to take the set back until I discovered it only happened if I left it on the "daytime" setting. There's no problem at all if I leave the tv to the more natural "night" setting.

It is my understanding you all are getting this issue when you take it out of the daytime setting?
RC, I have watched my set exclusively in NightTime mode, so unfortunately it is not that simple in this set.

I've posted a few times in your thread you started and I'm not be critical of your decisions, so take this for what its worth. But what I've experienced from my first plasma choice to my current Sharp LCD. I believe your looking for greener pastures and boy are you in for a suprise. I've read where your disappointed with your Sharp but also have posted you loved it. My experience was frustartion (plasma) and I'm sure you haven't had to adjust your Sharp much, but with a plasma let the adjusting begin. Like Optivity said "Pick your Poison".
Yeah, unfortunately, some of these flat-panel "veterans" may be right. I guess we first time buyers come looking for real improvements over our CRT or bulky RPTVs (I had a Pioneer Elite HD RPTV), but I guess the reality is you have to trade some kind of picture quirk or degradation for the convenience of flat-panel? I say this after looking through my Hitachi manual for any kind of answer to this flicker or Auto-Contrast feature. Didn't find anything, but I did come across these interesting tidbits (these are all under the Troubleshooting section):
-a buzzing sound from the Plasma display panel...is NOT a malfunction
-issues with lip-sync (which I have occasionally noticed)...is NOT a defect in the television
-and our favorite...bright and dark spots and I quote "...there may be points that do not illuminate, points that are too bright, and points with color different with that of the periphery. Please note that this is NOT a malfunction". WTF?

Yeah, it sounds like even the manufacturer is trying to warn us not to expect "perfection". But I'm with the newbies; it may sound naive, but is this what I drop $2,000+ of my hard-earned bucks on?

CD

That's a shame, CDLehner. Have you tried adjusting the picture (to your liking) from the daytime setting and seeing if it still flickers that way? It's worth a try.

-and our favorite...bright and dark spots and I quote "...there may be points that do not illuminate, points that are too bright, and points with color different with that of the periphery. Please note that this is NOT a malfunction". WTF?


Well IMO this a definition of "false contour" and I've been through the same thing your going through now. But I've also learned from folks here that "ALL" don't experience this.

But I ended up with an LCD and I don't have to adjust it. Now some will argue that PQ is better on plamsa and I would agree, and I think thats what attracts you to it. But for me something I didn't need to adjust all the time, was worth choosing a TV that might not have better PQ.

But to me "flicker" is too much and LCD's don't do it. And the trade off was worth it. Just my opinions.

Here's the latest on my 42HDS69 saga: about 2 days before I got through break-in and really started watching my set, my boss informed me that he could have gotten me a HELLUVA price on the TV. You see, I just started working for him about 4 months ago and lo and behold, in addition to owning the company I work for, he's living every A/V nut's dream: he's an enthusiast who has also started small-time distributing on the side. He's really got connections on just about everything, including beautiful high-end stuff (it's going to get me in major trouble), and the price he is offering me is COST; in fact, it's DISCOUNTED COST (more on that in a minute). When I was looking to buy my set, I didn't want to hit him up for a price...plus I was worried about a delivery...and after he offered, I wasn't going screw the retailer I bought from and jump for the much lower price. However, since my set has now started having this damn flicker issue, it gives me a perfectly legitimate reason to return it and take advantage of the offer.

So I was explaining the issue to him today and I said normally I would exhaust tying to fix the issue on my current set before giving up on it and opting for something else; you know, firmware update, technician visit, etc. But since he was offering the set at a better price, I would just return this one, pray to the Lord that I just got a bad one, and see how his did. However, if the new set also exhibited this flickering, I would, at that point, try the firmware upgrade, technician visit, etc...but if it persisted, that would convince me the issue was inherent to the model and I would not want to keep it. Well, there's always a rub and there it is; as a distributor, he can't just return it, he has to find a different way to move it and isn't interested in taking the loss since he doesn't really deal in Plasma TVs normally and wouldn't be interested in trying to move it if it didn't work out for me.

So...I've got to see if this one can be corrected, so I can determine if this is a model worth getting again at the lower price, or if I have to just ditch Hitachi and start my search, limited to Panny, Pio, Samsung this time, all over again. Ugh!!

Now, here's what I find interesting about this set: IMO, Hitachi has made an effort to really aim the 42HDS69 at the masses; to maybe make THIS set the one that will breakthrough so that everyone thinks "hey, I gotta get a plasma...and wow, look, they're kind of affordable". I mean, I can't recall a TV and magazine campaign around a single model the way I have for the 42HDS69. Now, the prices are dropping through the floor. I know we can't discuss price here, but I will say that in my area, CC has dropped the price $270 since I bought the set 2 weeks ago!! And the distributor that my boss got his price from has dropped the cost about the same. So is Hitachi trying to price this thing to really break out, or do they realize they have a dog on their hands? I'm also wondering, as I hear others talking about waiting for the HDT or HDX series, aren't they likely to use the same panels, and therefore inherit the same flicker issue, as the HDS? Plus, I see that motorized stand as a waste of money for anyone who plans to wall-mount their set anyway.

Chris

Well, fellow 42HDS69 owners, I have some good news and some bad news regarding our “flicker” issue…and I won’t even call it dark or black flicker anymore, because I have now identified the issue during “light” or normal lighting scenes as well. As previously reported, I had just started really watching programming on my set after 100 hours of nothing but break-in DVD; I watched some Finding Nemo last night, looking diligently for any sign of flicker and detected none. Then some of Jackie Brown Collectors Edition and I started to see some evidence of what everyone has been talking about. Tonight…and here is the “good” news: for those of you who have tried to demonstrate this issue to a technician and failed, I think I have the demo disc for you…I watched Disc 1, Side A, of Season 1 of The West Wing and there were these, what I can only describe as shifts of contrast, all over the place. If you’re not familiar with the show, I think it really exploits this issue because as characters move around inside the White House, the subtleties of light change quickly and all you need to do is look at colors on the walls to see that the set is struggling to decide which picture to display. I know that sounds confusing, so let me see if I can explain it this way: imagine you have say 4 stills of a scene and each still has a different contrast setting and that may, in turn, effect hues and colors in the still. It seems that as a character moves into a different room or light, the set is throwing up 1 still, with 1 setting and then deciding “no, maybe this is the proper way to display the picture” and the still changes and I have seen examples where, within like 1 seconds time, if you just look at the color of a wall, the picture contrast, hue, color, seem to change 4 times or so before it settles down. I don’t know the way some of the technical aspects work, but does this sound like a problem with the sets de-interlacer? Like I said, the only good news I can think of is I am SURE I can demonstrate the issue on my set to a Hitachi technician and maybe we can get some kind of answer on the problem. If it can’t be fixed, my set will be going back; whether my issue is more severe than some, or if certain types of programming just bring it out more than others, I cannot say, but I can’t live with the picture anomaly.

I started this thread because it has previously been mixed in with the general Hitachi postings, good and bad, but I think those of us trying to decide how to resolve this issue or return these sets, should be able to follow a thread specifically dedicated to this very troubling issue.

CD
Hello,

I saw this thread and had to chime in. I currently own a 42HDT51 from a couple model years ago that exhibits this very problem. It drove me nuts to say the least. Shortly after I got the panel I started to research the flicker issue. It turns out that the issue is an apparent flaw in all ALIS panels and thus can't be fixed. The only option would be to return it and invest in a non ALIS panel. The flicker annoyed me so much that I haven't even used the panel sinch March of this year. If you are sensitive to this flicker issue return the set immedietly and go for something different. If you are to late to return like I was, better luck with future purchases. :rolleyes:

Did i miss pictures of the Flicker in one of these threads? can someone "catch" a few flicker pics and share?

how disheartening..

So, given this flicker issue, should one steer clear of this model?
As a first time HDTV buyer, I have this set at the top of my list. But, since reading the forums, the flicker issue seems to be a show stopper.

So...I settled in for some hard, critical viewing tonight, forced to make a decision about whether to keep my 42HDS69 or not. I started off with my HD STB, as I wanted to test a theory; most of my viewing up until this point had been done with a new DVD player (a Denon 1730, I bought for upconverting on this set, but up until this point I have only been running component output at 480p)...maybe my issue was being caused by the player? Or was exaggerated by the set having to convert 480p to its native 1080i? My Comcast HD STB looked GREAT...and whereas I couldn't stop seeing the "flicker" or contrast shifts from the DVDs, the picture...contrast, color, definition...was sharp and steady from the cable feed. The STB was using the same input and cables that I used for the DVD, so I eliminated them as suspects. So I was convinced that the issue could not be with the "panels", as I have heard someone else suggest, as a panel defect or tendency would happen no matter what the source. Long-story-short: I started monkeying with the settings and for some reason, my problem is DEFINITELY being caused by the Contrast setting being too low. I was still dialed way down from my break-in and I found the picture to be acceptable (other than the "flicker" of course) at about 30%, so that's where I've been watching material the past few days. BEHOLD...bounce it up to 40% and the shadowy, contrast-shifts, flicker-whatevers are GONE!! I went back and watched scenes that were torture the day before: West Wing, Jackie Brown, Armageddon Criterion; did I mention that the flicker was GONE!? I even had my wife lend a second set of eyes, just to make sure I wasn't new-plasma-owner-joins-avsforum-and-starts-seeing-things-that-aren't-really-there guy; but after training her as to what the hell i was talking about, she noticed it every where I did, which was EVERYWHERE, too. But then she also agreed that this Contrast increase eliminated it.

I saw elsewhere, after my discovery, that someone else thinks Color Temp and Noise Reduction settings may be the key in eliminating their flicker issue. But I also noticed his Contrast setting was 56, way above the threshold I discovered. So I think the bottom line is, as one Plasma veteran mentioned, that tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, is really essential in Plasma; you can't just expect these sets to look very good right out of the box.

I will say this: I was still able to re-create this flicker issue with one particularly torturous scene in Jackie Brown. The scene is essential in a dark room, with bodies illuminated as silhouettes from window light at night. I believe this somewhat lighter and somewhat darker holding of black backgrounds is the normal, all plasmas do it, false-contouring that I have heard about. In any case, whatever it is, I can live with it and am ecstactic about being able to tweak the set now for best, most vibrant picture, and not just to make it acceptable to view.

I suggest anyone still having this issue, try checking your Contrast. Too low like mine, or is this a case of different strokes for different folks? I'm really hoping others find some success and welcome reading the posts.

Chris

I have the 55HDT79, one of the first to come out.

My firmware release is 0109.0001 on this TV. I have be told that the first sets that came out, were releaseed with last years software. They "say" they have a fix and that it is a firmware update. I will let all you know how it turns out...... :eek:

Damn! I'm so happy you found a solution, CDLehner. After reading your post, I checked the contrast while my tv was at the daytime setting and it was negative thirty-one while my nighttime setting was negative thirteen. It seems you may have solved the problem. I must say, it took at least two weeks of tweaking before I was happy with my Hitachi, but I couldn't be more pleased now.

BRAC, (this seems like an afterthought now)I had the same issue with my ED Hitachi and it's not an ALIS panel.

Hi all, thought I chip in on this issue since I own the 55HDS52 and have experienced the flicker problem. Was told by Hitachi that my firmware was old and is sending out an upgrade card but might not receive it for awhile because they only have a few and have to wait for customers to return it before they can mail it to me. Did anyone who did the upgrade have this issue resolved by it? My plasma is wall mounted and I have to take it down which is no easy task to perform this upgrade and want to know if I should even bother if it doesn't fix it. They also told me to turn off the Black Enhancment feature, this did greatly improve the problem but it is still there but not nearly as noticable. Anyone who has not tried this should do so because it did help quite a bit. They also told me the engineers in Japan are hard at work on this issue which leads me to believe they have not figured out a permanent solution to this and I didn't have a good feeling after that but I'm pinning my hopes on the upgrade because I really do love the picture on this set and would like to keep it.

I will say this: I was still able to re-create this flicker issue with one particularly torturous scene in Jackie Brown. The scene is essential in a dark room, with bodies illuminated as silhouettes from window light at night. I believe this somewhat lighter and somewhat darker holding of black backgrounds is the normal, all plasmas do it, false-contouring that I have heard about. In any case, whatever it is, I can live with it and am ecstactic about being able to tweak the set now for best, most vibrant picture, and not just to make it acceptable to view.

I suggest anyone still having this issue, try checking your Contrast. Too low like mine, or is this a case of different strokes for different folks? I'm really hoping others find some success and welcome reading the posts.

Chris

Was the Jackie Brown on the comcast box or the DVD?

Was the Jackie Brown on the comcast box or the DVD?

Collectors Edition DVD.

Hi all, thought I chip in on this issue since I own the 55HDS52 and have experienced the flicker problem. Was told by Hitachi that my firmware was old and is sending out an upgrade card but might not receive it for awhile because they only have a few and have to wait for customers to return it before they can mail it to me. Did anyone who did the upgrade have this issue resolved by it? My plasma is wall mounted and I have to take it down which is no easy task to perform this upgrade and want to know if I should even bother if it doesn't fix it. They also told me to turn off the Black Enhancment feature, this did greatly improve the problem but it is still there but not nearly as noticable. Anyone who has not tried this should do so because it did help quite a bit. They also told me the engineers in Japan are hard at work on this issue which leads me to believe they have not figured out a permanent solution to this and I didn't have a good feeling after that but I'm pinning my hopes on the upgrade because I really do love the picture on this set and would like to keep it.

Lodef, stay optimistic, but I have heard 42HDS69 owners say the firmware upgrade did not resolve their problem. I haven't rushed right out to get it for that reason. There is more information on the Hitachi flciker in the OFFICIAL thread.

FLICKER NEWS

Ok, sp the salesman came over with an update, I had v0109.0001. I showed him a scene on "The Grudge", pause it and a flicker fest was going on. Perfect, now at least he sees what I am talking about. That I am not crazy.

I should ge the camera and tape a videp of it. I am sure i can replicate the problem. So guys, all you have to do is put a DVD on pause in a dark scene and you can probably demo the flicker.

Anyway, he had update v0110.0001 with him. I was sceptical as I saw someone on here with update v0115.0001.

We loaded it, and the Flicker was still there
I watched "Friday Night Lights" (good movie BTW) and "memoirs of a Geisha and saw tonnes of flicker. Beautiful movies to watch as colour was excellent.

The Hitachi rep lives in Town, not far from me, so I hear. So I am awaiting to see where we go next now.

I am not a real fan of what you guys are doing to cure the flicker issue by manipulating a bunch of settings. That is only a bandade cuire. I do not want to have a certain set of settings just to mask a problem.

If the tV was meant to have a flicker, then the manual would of said "to cure any flicker, please use these settings...". I am not sure how many hours I have logged (is there a counter?), maybe 60-70 hours so far. Not sure if this is a burn in issue.....which would be stupid too.

I am not doubting that v115.0001 will be this salespersons next move...and reading above posts, I am skeptical that will do anything.

:( :mad:

So...I settled in for some hard, critical viewing tonight, forced to make a decision about whether to keep my 42HDS69 or not. I started off with my HD STB, as I wanted to test a theory; most of my viewing up until this point had been done with a new DVD player (a Denon 1730, I bought for upconverting on this set, but up until this point I have only been running component output at 480p)...maybe my issue was being caused by the player? Or was exaggerated by the set having to convert 480p to its native 1080i? My Comcast HD STB looked GREAT...and whereas I couldn't stop seeing the "flicker" or contrast shifts from the DVDs, the picture...contrast, color, definition...was sharp and steady from the cable feed. The STB was using the same input and cables that I used for the DVD, so I eliminated them as suspects. So I was convinced that the issue could not be with the "panels", as I have heard someone else suggest, as a panel defect or tendency would happen no matter what the source. Long-story-short: I started monkeying with the settings and for some reason, my problem is DEFINITELY being caused by the Contrast setting being too low. I was still dialed way down from my break-in and I found the picture to be acceptable (other than the "flicker" of course) at about 30%, so that's where I've been watching material the past few days. BEHOLD...bounce it up to 40% and the shadowy, contrast-shifts, flicker-whatevers are GONE!! I went back and watched scenes that were torture the day before: West Wing, Jackie Brown, Armageddon Criterion; did I mention that the flicker was GONE!? I even had my wife lend a second set of eyes, just to make sure I wasn't new-plasma-owner-joins-avsforum-and-starts-seeing-things-that-aren't-really-there guy; but after training her as to what the hell i was talking about, she noticed it every where I did, which was EVERYWHERE, too. But then she also agreed that this Contrast increase eliminated it.

I saw elsewhere, after my discovery, that someone else thinks Color Temp and Noise Reduction settings may be the key in eliminating their flicker issue. But I also noticed his Contrast setting was 56, way above the threshold I discovered. So I think the bottom line is, as one Plasma veteran mentioned, that tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, is really essential in Plasma; you can't just expect these sets to look very good right out of the box.

I will say this: I was still able to re-create this flicker issue with one particularly torturous scene in Jackie Brown. The scene is essential in a dark room, with bodies illuminated as silhouettes from window light at night. I believe this somewhat lighter and somewhat darker holding of black backgrounds is the normal, all plasmas do it, false-contouring that I have heard about. In any case, whatever it is, I can live with it and am ecstactic about being able to tweak the set now for best, most vibrant picture, and not just to make it acceptable to view.

I suggest anyone still having this issue, try checking your Contrast. Too low like mine, or is this a case of different strokes for different folks? I'm really hoping others find some success and welcome reading the posts.

Chris


I had all my settings at :( 50%, no change in flicker at all. I tried every combo of settings. the only other thing is maybe burn time, I dunno.

I only have about 8 hrs on my set, but decided to try out a DVD just to see if I noticed any flicker. I put in Band of Brothers the 2nd episode. There is a very dark scene at the beginning when they are jumping into Normandy. I didn't notice any flicker, but then again I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for (maybe thats a good thing :D ). My contrast and brightness are set at 30%. Blacks seemed to be done really well.

FLICKER NEWS

I am not a real fan of what you guys are doing to cure the flicker issue by manipulating a bunch of settings. That is only a bandade cuire. I do not want to have a certain set of settings just to mask a problem.

Puchall, I agree with you that it is unacceptable to simply change settings to mask a possible defect or tendency with a particular set. In my case, the only reason I might be able to live with it is that the issue is Contrast being at 30% or lower, which is not really where I'd have the set after dialing it in anyway. In other words, not only does it help with my flicker, but the picture looks BETTER too; I was only that low to begin with because of break-in concerns.

I started this thread because I think we all need to share info to find a possible remedy; that includes any and all feedback from Hitachi, reps, techs, etc. I need the firmware upgrade, but don't expect that to help much. Yes, I am still noticing some flicker, although it is no where near as bad as it was with the Contrast way down. I have mentioned this before and no one really bit, but could it have something to do with the set's processor and the way it handles conversion?? I say this because I only ever see the issue with my DVD player, which is currently outputting at 480p, and I NEVER see it with my STB, which is 1080i...the native resolution for this set. Now, granted, up to this point I am usually watching sports or some other hi-def programming on the STB, and it wouldn't highlight black issues like a movie would, but I think I'm going to make a point of watching some Deadwood or something tonight and see what happens. For me, if this is at least part of the issue, then getting an HDMI cable (which I'm planning to do anyway) and having my player upconvert to 1080i, might greatly help the issue.

CD

I started this thread because I think we all need to share info to find a possible remedy; that includes any and all feedback from Hitachi, reps, techs, etc. I need the firmware upgrade, but don't expect that to help much. Yes, I am still noticing some flicker, although it is no where near as bad as it was with the Contrast way down. I have mentioned this before and no one really bit, but could it have something to do with the set's processor and the way it handles conversion?? I say this because I only ever see the issue with my DVD player, which is currently outputting at 480p, and I NEVER see it with my STB, which is 1080i...the native resolution for this set. Now, granted, up to this point I am usually watching sports or some other hi-def programming on the STB, and it wouldn't highlight black issues like a movie would, but I think I'm going to make a point of watching some Deadwood or something tonight and see what happens. For me, if this is at least part of the issue, then getting an HDMI cable (which I'm planning to do anyway) and having my player upconvert to 1080i, might greatly help the issue.

CD[/QUOTE]

Ya, this whole thing is disheartening to me. I am going to take this right to the end, until I am satisfied. The store I bought from, opens Tues AM, I will be on the cell calling the sales rep and seeing whats next.

I see the flicker on HD, my PVR, DVD, all inputs. I watch the HD movie channel that has deadwood, and that flickers too.

Who out there knows something? Is this hardware or software.......Hitachi rep chime in, I know your reading these......
:eek:

So...I settled in for some hard, critical viewing tonight, forced to make a decision about whether to keep my 42HDS69 or not. I started off with my HD STB, as I wanted to test a theory; most of my viewing up until this point had been done with a new DVD player (a Denon 1730, I bought for upconverting on this set, but up until this point I have only been running component output at 480p)...maybe my issue was being caused by the player? Or was exaggerated by the set having to convert 480p to its native 1080i? My Comcast HD STB looked GREAT...and whereas I couldn't stop seeing the "flicker" or contrast shifts from the DVDs, the picture...contrast, color, definition...was sharp and steady from the cable feed. The STB was using the same input and cables that I used for the DVD, so I eliminated them as suspects. So I was convinced that the issue could not be with the "panels", as I have heard someone else suggest, as a panel defect or tendency would happen no matter what the source. Long-story-short: I started monkeying with the settings and for some reason, my problem is DEFINITELY being caused by the Contrast setting being too low. I was still dialed way down from my break-in and I found the picture to be acceptable (other than the "flicker" of course) at about 30%, so that's where I've been watching material the past few days. BEHOLD...bounce it up to 40% and the shadowy, contrast-shifts, flicker-whatevers are GONE!! I went back and watched scenes that were torture the day before: West Wing, Jackie Brown, Armageddon Criterion; did I mention that the flicker was GONE!? I even had my wife lend a second set of eyes, just to make sure I wasn't new-plasma-owner-joins-avsforum-and-starts-seeing-things-that-aren't-really-there guy; but after training her as to what the hell i was talking about, she noticed it every where I did, which was EVERYWHERE, too. But then she also agreed that this Contrast increase eliminated it.

I saw elsewhere, after my discovery, that someone else thinks Color Temp and Noise Reduction settings may be the key in eliminating their flicker issue. But I also noticed his Contrast setting was 56, way above the threshold I discovered. So I think the bottom line is, as one Plasma veteran mentioned, that tweaking, tweaking, tweaking, is really essential in Plasma; you can't just expect these sets to look very good right out of the box.

I will say this: I was still able to re-create this flicker issue with one particularly torturous scene in Jackie Brown. The scene is essential in a dark room, with bodies illuminated as silhouettes from window light at night. I believe this somewhat lighter and somewhat darker holding of black backgrounds is the normal, all plasmas do it, false-contouring that I have heard about. In any case, whatever it is, I can live with it and am ecstactic about being able to tweak the set now for best, most vibrant picture, and not just to make it acceptable to view.

I suggest anyone still having this issue, try checking your Contrast. Too low like mine, or is this a case of different strokes for different folks? I'm really hoping others find some success and welcome reading the posts.

Chris
Sincerely, I hope you fixed the problem... Trust me!!! I thought I had the flicker problem fixed many times on my plasma only to have it come and go with no pattern what so ever. The flicker for me was worse with HDMI connections on my set but I could still see it to a slightly lesser extent on the component inputs. For me, the flicker was worse on cable. DVD was actually much better... Hope this helps. :)

How widespread is this issue really? I'm curious. How many own this set and have absolutely no problems whatsoever, but never visit chat boards and state so.

Most of the time you hear more of the problems rather than the good. Most defect rates on electronics are 3 - 5 %. Is it "possible" you guys are falling into that percent rather than it being an epidemic? If it was an epidemic, wouldn't there be an official statement/recall/fix out there?

I'm also going based on recent complaints about the Xbox 360 and how its "defective", yet I've had one since launch with no problems as like 95-97% of the other owners.

Comments?

How widespread is this issue really? I'm curious. How many own this set and have absolutely no problems whatsoever, but never visit chat boards and state so.

Most of the time you hear more of the problems rather than the good. Most defect rates on electronics are 3 - 5 %. Is it "possible" you guys are falling into that percent rather than it being an epidemic? If it was an epidemic, wouldn't there be an official statement/recall/fix out there?

I'm also going based on recent complaints about the Xbox 360 and how its "defective", yet I've had one since launch with no problems as like 95-97% of the other owners.

Comments?
I think someone (who is experiencing flicker) should create a poll to see how many readers here have no flicker(or not anymore after contrast adjustment).

I have had absolutely no problems with my 42HDX62A after 60 hours of watching. It is a beautiful set and am 99% keeping it after the 30 days expire. These flicker stories do not bother me. I think all plasmas have their "flicker" issue albeit in a different way shape or form. Plus get this...the flicker happens only in certani scenes so i dunno what this brouhaha is all about.

How widespread is this issue really? I'm curious. How many own this set and have absolutely no problems whatsoever, but never visit chat boards and state so.

Most of the time you hear more of the problems rather than the good. Most defect rates on electronics are 3 - 5 %. Is it "possible" you guys are falling into that percent rather than it being an epidemic? If it was an epidemic, wouldn't there be an official statement/recall/fix out there?

I'm also going based on recent complaints about the Xbox 360 and how its "defective", yet I've had one since launch with no problems as like 95-97% of the other owners.

Comments?
Well, this might be the rub: maybe guys who don't visit boards, in other words perhaps casual viewers as opposed to hobbyist or enthusiasts, don't really care that much about a slight, perceived flicker. Hard to say I guess. Trust me, I come from the audiophile world where enthusiasts will fight to the death over perceived differences in how cables sound, so...I think people, for the most part, in a forum like this, are just more demanding of their equipment.

CD

Well, this might be the rub: maybe guys who don't visit boards, in other words perhaps casual viewers as opposed to hobbyist or enthusiasts, don't really care that much about a slight, perceived flicker. Hard to say I guess. Trust me, I come from the audiophile world where enthusiasts will fight to the death over perceived differences in how cables sound, so...I think people, for the most part, in a forum like this, are just more demanding of their equipment.

CD'

I am more demanding on equipment when i spend 5k on a TV. 6 months ago I didnt know what HDMI was. Now I am totally caught up on all that stuff, but dont consider myself hardcore......(or....with 4 TVs in the house, maybe I am?). I just want what anyone wants, a flicker free tv.

Remeber, this is a model that just came out in the last couple months - I got mine 3 weeks ago & it was the first the store got. So with time, they may hear more....

I too thought the flicker was just on the 69 series, but I have the 79 and I have it too.


What I did this afternoon with my settings that did seem to almost shutdown the flicker all together. Its still there, but not as obvious, in case I have an Audiophile visit today :D

contrast - 51%
colour - 53%
brightness - 59%

dark enhancement - low (to compensate for the higher brightness)

I am thinking more brightness, than contrast affects (?).

'

I am more demanding on equipment when i spend 5k on a TV
That's kind of where I am on my 42HDS69 right now. It's in the Living Room, up above the fireplace; the flicker is much more noticeable on DVD than STB. In a year, this set will only be used for STB and maybe the most casual DVD viewing, as my wife and I plan to construct a dedicated HT (I was hoping to do it for this Fall, but we just made the decision it would either cost us a ton of money to get it up in a hurry, or we could take a year and try to do as much DIY as we can). For the 2k I spent on this set, and the general state of flat panels these days (I'm convinced you have to give up SOMETHING for the convenience of hanging the thing on the wall...lol), I think I'm willing to hold on to this set. Now, when I have to pick out a 10k projector, that's when the real hand-wringing starts.

CD

Now that i better understand this flicker you are referring to, i dont think we have this on either of our display sets. I would have noticed it by now. One is playing a dvd and the other is getting a satelite hd feed.

Now that i better understand this flicker you are referring to, i dont think we have this on either of our display sets. I would have noticed it by now. One is playing a dvd and the other is getting a satelite hd feed.

I hope I'm in the same boat. I played some Dark scenes just to see and didn't notice anything unusual.

Now that i better understand this flicker you are referring to, i dont think we have this on either of our display sets. I would have noticed it by now. One is playing a dvd and the other is getting a satelite hd feed.


Just curious..... what TV? What firmware version.....how many hours are on those TV's?

What are your settings? These TVs are programmed in Torch mode, meaning the contrast is set to 100% out of the box. Most people will cut that in half to stop burnin.

Also, lets put these showroom TVs out of the bright lights......into a dark basement like mine, I bet you'll see different.

Also, thats another thing people wonder, does it go away with time? We wonder :confused:

Also, thats another thing people wonder, does it go away with time? We wonder :confused:

Thats what I don't understand , people who have had last years models must have experienced the flicker issue but don't leave any feedback as to what happened after time, did it go away? did it go away and come back? or did it just fade where it's almost not noticable anymore? did they do something to fix this or are they just living with it. Answers to these question would be very helpful to a lot of people yet none are fothcoming. :confused:

Based on CDLehner's problem, its a drastically noticeable flicker. I go back to work on wednesday and i will turn down the sets contrast and stare at it for a while. They are in torch mode but i have turned down the contrast pretty low, however only briefly and noticed nothing. The original 'flicker' i thought was associated with our display is not the problem you guys are having. I notice up close that the pixels dont stay dark or black but rather shift between colors in a dark shade. Not something i see from viewing distance but its not visible on the other brands like on this hitachi.

Our 55" HDS has the lights above it turned off and we're going to do a similar setup throughout the rest of our displays, hopefully enogh to make a difference.

What is latest firmware version ?

I have 55hdt79 with v110.0001 loaded.

I have tech coming tommorow to check this out......

Guys, I know this thread is going on ad nauseam and has become somewhat of an AVS joke, but I will continue to post to the thread if I think I have any information that can help others. That being said, I did my first calibration last night; I always start with Avia, as I find DVE to be more thorough, but also more daunting. Worked at night, with very little to no ambient light, setting up my Night mode levels. I'll post them in a minute, but first let me share a few observations:

- The first thing I couldn't help but notice, and it wasn't the first time, but on my set, flicker absolutely does not occur when the picture is paused; the image is steady, even on test patterns that displayed the blackest blacks. Now, what I did notice...entirely by accident...is this: on my DVD player, if you press pause, a white pause symbol comes up on the screen and then goes away after about 5 seconds. OK...so I had a completely black screen, I pressed pause, which put the WHITE pause symbol in the image, and then, when it passed, you could see the still dark image, steadily, shift degrees of darkness. Let me elaborate:

The image was entirely black, I pressed pause...which created an image of all black, with a white pause symbol in the upper right-hand corner of the panel. When the pause went away, and the white was eliminated from the image, the panel, UNIFORMLY, shifted its Contrast down; the whole panel went dark, darker, darker still, like 4 Contrast level shifts down , to account for the absence of the white in the image. IMO this has got to be by design, as it was too uniform to be a defect, and it makes sense as either an Auto Contrast feature, which I have heard this set may have, or as an inherent function of the ALiS panels (Alternate Lighting of Surfaces).

In any case, after basic calibration, here are the settings I settled on for the moment:

(I was actually NEVER able to make the white bars disappear in the Avia Contrast test, even maxed out at 100%, so Contrast was set at my discretion and I settled at)
Contrast 50%
Brightness 53%
Color 29%
Tint 2 steps down towards red
Sharpness 30%
Color Temp STD
Black Enhancement Low
Contrast Mode Normal (has anyone found any situation where Dynamic looks good?)
Noise Reduction Off (I can see no noticeable difference in any mode other than High, and that seems to soften the picture a bit to me)

After dialing in, my wife and I watched a smattering of movies: Fifth Element, Seven, Forrest Gump, West Wing; the PQ ranged from very good to great, depending on the title and pressing. Early on I had some of the most pronounced flicker, with Contrast set too low, but since I've dialed the set in, with Contrast and Brightness at a more reasonable setting for normal viewing, the set has looked nothing short of amazing and I can only notice a slight "flicker" or wavering of blacks in the toughest of scenes (saw just a little waver during certain dark scenes in Seven, of which there are many; my wife, who could always see them before, when it was really pronounced, cannot even see the small ones now). And I've always had more trouble seeing the issue on my STB, which is native 1080i, which means it looks even better to me than my 480p DVD.

I'm going to register the issue with Hitachi, just in case I ever need to remedy it in the future. I'll upgrade my firmware, just for good measure (I'm currently at v0110.001), but I think I'm done solving this mystery. Please, feel free to e-mail me and I'll offer my help in any way I can.

CD

Using the quick calibration DVD from CC, my settings are very similar:
Contrast 56
Brightness 58
Sharpness 30
Color 30
Tint 2 Steps up
Color Temp Normal
Black Enhancement Low
Contrast Mode Normal

I'm not noticing any flicker now.

Using the quick calibration DVD from CC, my settings are very similar:
Contrast 56
Brightness 58
Sharpness 30
Color 30
Tint 2 Steps up
Color Temp Normal
Black Enhancement Low
Contrast Mode Normal

I'm not noticing any flicker now.

I had my settings like this, it was better for flicker issue........but again all these settings (especially low black enhancemnt) are just masking the problem. I saw flicker on Bourne Supremecy no problems.......I have a tech coming tommorrow, I see what he says....

:( :mad:

Damn, I think they think I am nuts. I showed LOTHR, The Grudge, King Kong, Friday Night Lights.....

Maybe this is a breakin thing, they said they see it, but it wasnt doing the same amount as when I had the saleman over.

One tech mentioned its probably the lamp (?) in the back or something.

They also said they havent had any complaints ...... ?

Anyway, they said they will contact Hitachi etc. I am sure they got in the van and just laughed like Monkeys.

I think I am going to check myself into the nut- house.

:(

I had my settings like this, it was better for flicker issue........but again all these settings (especially low black enhancemnt) are just masking the problem. I saw flicker on Bourne Supremecy no problems.......I have a tech coming tommorrow, I see what he says....

So when you saw flicker while watching Bourne Supremecy, you had the settings about what I stated above?

If so, then sounds like a problem. Star Wars Ep. III Mustafar looked awesome with no flicker. That was pretty dark along with bright spots.

How widespread is this issue really? I'm curious. How many own this set and have absolutely no problems whatsoever, but never visit chat boards and state so.

Most of the time you hear more of the problems rather than the good. Most defect rates on electronics are 3 - 5 %. Is it "possible" you guys are falling into that percent rather than it being an epidemic? If it was an epidemic, wouldn't there be an official statement/recall/fix out there?

I'm also going based on recent complaints about the Xbox 360 and how its "defective", yet I've had one since launch with no problems as like 95-97% of the other owners.

Comments?

Your assuming that its a defect? What I know from reading this board for quite awhile, its a feature what some members say. Some call it the "Dynamic Contrast Feature". Thats why this will effect more than your 3-5 percent. Also CD wrote from your owners manual about bright spots I suggest you look at your manual. Also what I've read from here that the effect will be more or less pronounced from panel to panel. If you dig in the archives its all here to find out all about it. Of course these are my opinions, and trying to fiqure this out like the rest of you.

Now I will be like Kramer and shut-up starting "NOW".

Anyone else have any more flicker news? upgrades, setup fixes etc?

My 2c on the subject fwiw (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8352042&&#post8352042)

One tech mentioned its probably the lamp (?) in the back or something.If he was referring to a lamp, as in room-lighting lamps (plasmas have no backlight like LCDs), then this may not be as far-fetched as it sounds.

If you're using fluorescent lighting or dimmers in your viewing area, that could be contributing to your sensation of flicker or general difficulty or eye fatigue in watching the picture.

The flicker on current fluorescent bulbs is supposed to be of such high frequency that the human eye shouldn't be able to detect it. But I still find it more fatiguing to my own eyes than incandescent lighting. Wish there were some other options for 6500k background lighting that had no flicker at all.

Dimmers also work by rapidly cycling a light on and off (at 60Hz?). So I wouldn't recommend using them for TV viewing either.

You really need some sort of ambient or background lighting though, both to reduce eye strain and help with the sense of depth on the display. Natural daylight works well of course. In terms of artificial lighting, incandescents (sans dimmers) are probably gonna be among the easiest on the eyes flicker-wise, but they may negatively effect your perception of the color on the display to a degree.

"Reveal" bulbs and others like them (ie the incandescent bulbs that look sort of blue) will give you slightly whiter lighting than regular incandescents, but they seem to burn much hotter than regular incandescents and fluorescents, so I wouldn't advise sticking one behind a plasma (or near any flammable objects or curtains), because of the additional heat it would generate, not to mention the increased fire hazard.

Might see if anyone else has other ideas on this subject in the Bias Lighting thread.

My 2c on the subject fwiw (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8352042&&#post8352042)

So what in a nutshell are you saying, crank the contrast for the flicker? What are your easy suggestions......for tweaking. Is this flicker here to stay?

Hitachi 55hdt79 BTw.

:confused:

If he was referring to a lamp, as in room-lighting lamps (plasmas have no backlight like LCDs), then this may not be as far-fetched as it sounds.

If you're using fluorescent lighting or dimmers in your viewing area, that could be contributing to your sensation of flicker or general difficulty or eye fatigue in watching the picture.

The flicker on current fluorescent bulbs is supposed to be of such high frequency that the human eye shouldn't be able to detect it. But I still find it more fatiguing to my own eyes than incandescent lighting. Wish there were some other options for 6500k background lighting that had no flicker at all.

Dimmers also work by rapidly cycling a light on and off (at 60Hz?). So I wouldn't recommend using them for TV viewing either.

You really need some sort of ambient or background lighting though, both to reduce eye strain and help with the sense of depth on the display. Natural daylight works well of course. In terms of artificial lighting, incandescents (sans dimmers) are probably gonna be among the easiest on the eyes flicker-wise, but they may negatively effect your perception of the color on the display to a degree.

"Reveal" bulbs and others like them (ie the incandescent bulbs that look sort of blue) will give you slightly whiter lighting than regular incandescents, but they seem to burn much hotter than regular incandescents and fluorescents, so I wouldn't advise sticking one behind a plasma (or near any flammable objects or curtains), because of the additional heat it would generate, not to mention the increased fire hazard.

Might see if anyone else has other ideas on this subject in the Bias Lighting thread.
I've read your posts and I couldn't even come close talking technical with you. But I have some questions for you. I had a plasma for three months and had issues of floating blacks or false contour. My plasma was a two piece with a media center. When at the service center, I had to show them what was going on they had the same tv in their showroom. We tested a total of three media centers on there display. Two of them had the "floating blacks and third did not. This tells me the problem is in the electronics. What gives, do you have an idea? Also what do you do, you seem to have alot of knowledge. And you seem very reasonable.

Also is "flicker" different than "floating blacks" or "false contour". And what about Dynamic contrast? Any ideas?

So what in a nutshell are you saying, crank the contrast for the flicker? What are your easy suggestions......for tweaking. Is this flicker here to stay?

Hitachi 55hdt79 BTw.

:confused:Based on your other posts I'm assuming you're referring to the fluctuating or floating blacks. I think CDLehner's probably pretty close to the mark in his last post.The image was entirely black, I pressed pause...which created an image of all black, with a white pause symbol in the upper right-hand corner of the panel. When the pause went away, and the white was eliminated from the image, the panel, UNIFORMLY, shifted its Contrast down; the whole panel went dark, darker, darker still, like 4 Contrast level shifts down , to account for the absence of the white in the image. IMO this has got to be by design, as it was too uniform to be a defect, and it makes sense as either an Auto Contrast feature, which I have heard this set may have, or as an inherent function of the ALiS panels (Alternate Lighting of Surfaces).The contrast fluctuations are the most pronounced by far on my 42HDS69 with the Dynamic Contrast Mode. So first thing I'd do is set that to Normal (if it isn't already). With the Normal Contrast Mode setting I get only minor changes in the black levels, and can only see them with relatively low or no ambient light. Being sort of new to the plasma game, I can't really be certain if these minor fluctuations are by design or not, but as CD mentions, they seem to act is if they are. It looks like they may be intended to elevate the blacks slightly as the average picture level goes up to make shadow detail more discernible, sort of mimicking the behavior of a CRT.

The problem I think many users are having, is that they're trying to watch their displays in ambient surroundings that are too dark. With a decent amount of background illumination, the fluctuations become all but invisible on my 42HDS69, and probably work more as they were intended. So my first couple of recommendations are:

1. SET THE CONTRAST MODE TO NORMAL RATHER THAN DYNAMIC.
2. INCREASE YOUR BACKGROUND ILLUMINATION.

(Try to keep as much ambient or direct light from hitting the screen as possible though, because that will just wash out the contrast.)

My guess is that doing those two things will cure the problem for most people, and it will also improve the sense of depth in the picture.

In terms of Contrast, I'd say just set that to a level that's comfortable for your eyes, given the ambient light in your particular viewing environment.

I'd probably turn off the Black Enhancement, on the outside chance that may contribute to the problem on some displays as well. All those settings really seem to do on the 42HDS69 is crush the black detail. And you can probably get about the same effect by simply lowering Brightness, if you want a little more color depth. (I've been tending to run it a little below THX Optimizer/DVE spec. But not too much.)

That leaves the Day/Night settings. On the 42HDS69, the Day-Normal and Night settings appear to be almost identical (if the other controls are set the same). The Day-Normal setting seems to have a little more edge-enhancement, but that's about it. The Day-Dynamic setting has more enhanced contrast, and it also seems to have the deepest black level, so black level fluctuations may be more noticeable in this mode than the other two. I think the Day-Dynamic setting was intended primarily for Showroom use. It's contrast enhancement may help on some darker scenes though, so it may be worth trying once your background lighting is set to a reasonable level. YMMV.

The only display I can really speak for is the HDS69 btw. So it's quite possible some of this may work differently on the HDT79.

Final note: Don't get the Contrast Modes and Day/Night modes above confused, since they use similar terms (Dynamic and Normal). The Day-Dynamic setting is possibly worth considering, but I would avoid the Dynamic Contrast Mode (which is lower down in the video settings menu). I haven't noticed any pronounced fluctuations in contrast, just some minor "CRT-like" flotation of the blacks since turning the Dynamic Contrast Mode off (ie setting Contrast Mode to Normal), and increasing background lighting. Hopefully that's clear.

Final note: Don't get the Contrast Modes and Day/Night modes above confused, since they use similar terms (Dynamic and Normal). The Day-Dynamic setting is worth considering IMO, but I would avoid the Dynamic Contrast Mode (which is lower down in the video settings menu). I haven't noticed any flickering in the blacks, just minor CRT-like flotation since turning the Dynamic Contrast Mode off (ie setting Contrast Mode to Normal). Hopefully that's clear.

Adu by default the settings for Day/Dynamic has dynamic contrast enabled, although you can change the settings for all three modes to customize however you like.

Good informative posts by the way.

Adu by default the settings for Day/Dynamic has dynamic contrast enabled, although you can change the settings for all three modes to customize however you like.

That's what I was going to say. If you check your settings after changing the tv to "day" mode, the dynamic contrast will be on and your contrast setting will probably be significantly lower than night setting. I have a two year old Hitachi EDTV (not an ALIS panel) which does the same thing as your panels, but the problem was eliminated early on by just changing the tv from "day" to "night" setting.

I've notice "flicker" when I had Dynamic Contrast enabled. When i say flicker, I mean distorted pixelation thats bad. When I have DC set to normal, the only thing I notice sometimes is a slight shift in contrast. Such as a real dark scene starts out black, but if a little light is added to the scene, the contrast appears to automatically adjust, which seems odd, but might be a feature. :confused:

I've notice "flicker" when I had Dynamic Contrast enabled. When i say flicker, I mean distorted pixelation thats bad. When I have DC set to normal, the only thing I notice sometimes is a slight shift in contrast. Such as a real dark scene starts out black, but if a little light is added to the scene, the contrast appears to automatically adjust, which seems odd, but might be a feature. :confused:


That change of contrast or brightness in dark scenes is the flicker everyone keeps mentioning. Sometimes it is rapid as if it can't make up it's mind or in a scene that is constantly changing brigtness levels. I'm seeing it or noticing it more and more and I'm not liking it. I may be calling Hitachi soon to see if a firmware update will eventually take care of that.

So, I have my 42HDT79 sitting in my room (still in the box) because i'm away until tomorrow but I decided to email Hitachi anyways to let them know about the flickering issue everyone has been complaining about. I provided them with both this threaded discussion about the flickering and the official thread. Hopefully, they'll read what everyone has to say about this and try to fix the issue. Since my set was delivered while I was away, I haven't had the chance to test the flickering issue but I think they should still start working on a fix for the customers who have complained so far.

I also think it will be more effective if everyone with this issue emailed them, it is one thing to call and have them tell you to turn off your contrast and black level but it's another to bombard them with emails about this issue. Eventually, they will forward it to the appropriate people and including this forum will help speed up their responds time (i'm sure they don't want the bad publicity.

So everyone email them (even if you don't see the flickering).

I'll probably email them tonight. Its not deal breaking, but if they can fix it, then this TV would be absolutely perfect.

So, I have my 42HDT79 sitting in my room (still in the box) because i'm away until tomorrow but I decided to email Hitachi anyways to let them know about the flickering issue everyone has been complaining about. I provided them with both this threaded discussion about the flickering and the official thread. Hopefully, they'll read what everyone has to say about this and try to fix the issue. Since my set was delivered while I was away, I haven't had the chance to test the flickering issue but I think they should still start working on a fix for the customers who have complained so far.

I also think it will be more effective if everyone with this issue emailed them, it is one thing to call and have them tell you to turn off your contrast and black level but it's another to bombard them with emails about this issue. Eventually, they will forward it to the appropriate people and including this forum will help speed up their responds time (i'm sure they don't want the bad publicity.

So everyone email them (even if you don't see the flickering).

Just thought I'd chime in on this one too. I have a 55HDT79 with about 60-70 hours on it. Like most others, I see the flicker. Spiking up the contrast to 50+ does make a huge improvement. I can still see it on dark films like V for Vendetta, but my wife no longer notices it on regular TV viewing at night. I sent an email off to Hitachi about it and got the standard response about firmware version and dynamic contrast. I wrote back to them again asking for additional fix options, and got what seemed to be a form letter saying my issue was very complicated and could have many potential fixes, so please call them directly. Will get to that next week probably to see what they have to say.

BTW- I work at a company that makes front projectors. Our control systems guy assures me that the flicker is clearly a software issue. The gamma is being stepped up or down based on the brightness of the scene. It is a way of cheating and getting greater bit-depth and deeper blacks. Most (all?) panels do it, but obviously some do it better than others. Hitachi should be able to address this with a firmware update. I'm sure some of us would be okay with slightly less inky blacks in exchange for a stable picture. Just my two cents.

That change of contrast or brightness in dark scenes is the flicker everyone keeps mentioning. Sometimes it is rapid as if it can't make up it's mind or in a scene that is constantly changing brigtness levels. I'm seeing it or noticing it more and more and I'm not liking it. I may be calling Hitachi soon to see if a firmware update will eventually take care of that.


Thats actually a good description of the flicker I see too.

LET HITACHI KNOW ABOUT THE FLICKER. :eek:

I'll probably email them tonight. Its not deal breaking, but if they can fix it, then this TV would be absolutely perfect.

+1, I agree.

I like to watch alot of horror movies and this is like watching a strobe light.

:eek:

That change of contrast or brightness in dark scenes is the flicker everyone keeps mentioning. Sometimes it is rapid as if it can't make up it's mind or in a scene that is constantly changing brigtness levels. I'm seeing it or noticing it more and more and I'm not liking it. I may be calling Hitachi soon to see if a firmware update will eventually take care of that.


It's been a while since I weighed in, so I thought I would post. I've been trying to stay away from the boards and actually watch my set, but I've seen a couple of members post findings similar to the one I quoted above. As I've described before, IMO, this "flicker" is the Contrast automatically adjusting to changes in the image; when there is more "white" in the image, the Contrast...or lets say level of black...lightens, and when there is less white, the image darkens to try and "correct" it. In my set, I can recreate this 100% of the time by doing this (if you have a current gen Denon player, I would think you could do this too...and maybe other players are similar):

take a DVD and pause it at a black part...not a dark scene, as there is still shifting light, but a BLACK scene, like before the movie starts. I then press pause, which on my player puts a WHITE pause symbol on the image and freezes it. The image maintains rock-steady black or Contrast levels during pause, which tells me the issue is not a "flicker" or problem holding blacks. THEN, when the white pause goes away, and now the scene should just be all black again, the WHOLE SCREEN, as opposed to just parts or sections...the WHOLE SCREEN systematically shifts down Contrast to make the blacks "blacker". And the way it does it is like it goes from the "light black", from when the white pause button was in the image, to darker, darker still, darker yet, OK this is the dark I will settle on. It does it quickly of course, but not nearly so quick it can't be detected by the human eye. Now, imagine you're trying to find this during a normal movie scene; it's not likely to happen during a normal, bright scene...the set will see lots of light in the image and maintain a Contrast or black level. And during a dark scene, the subtleties of light coming in and out of the image cause the set to shift up, shift down...maybe shift 2 levels down in one scene, real quick shift a level up...then 3 levels up, 2 levels down, etc. Sounds like a "flicker" doesn't it? Try recreating the test I describe above and I believe you too will be convinced the set is "supposed" to do this. What I mean by supposed is it's a feature or flaw of the panel or whatever, but I do not believe it is a "defect". (The only exception would be one poster, who I believe said his set flickers when he has a DVD paused...mine NEVER has).

Now the question is do all the sets do this? If I can describe it to Hitachi this way, can they confirm that "feature" and think of a way to defeat it...or release firmware to defeat it? Some might argue that it is a "benefit"...I mean, after all, what I am describing is that the set will automatically adjust the Contrast or black level based upon the amount of light it detects in the image; got more white, I need to lighten real quick...oh, now I'm darker, quick, black, black, blacken. Wait, there's some light, oops, now it's dark again. Just like Delphi and others have said, it is like the set has trouble "making up its mind" which Contrast level is best during dark, light-shifting scenes. I say some, including Hitachi, may consider it a good feature, but of course it is distracting as hell and I, for one, cannot live with it. Tomorrow marks 30 days with my set and I am returning it for another 42HDS69. That'll start the clock running on that set, but from the start I will looking for the issue and if it crops up on 2 samples in a row, I will contact Hitachi and see if anything can be done. If not...and I haven't heard a lot of satisfaction from others who have gone this route...I will, unfortunately, be looking for a new model; probably shell out a few extra bucks and get a Pioneer. Like I said earlier, I feel like if I could describe the problem, as I see it, to an Engineer or the like, they'd know exactly what I was talking about and be like "oh, that's the such and such and here's maybe how to fix it" or "sure, that's the such and such...it doesn't go away, it's supposed to do that". But who will I end up talking to, those who've been through it already...some minimum-wage telemarketer taking notes on set complaints and passing them along to their pencil-pushing Supervisors?

CD

Since your back is up against the wall, I'd say either return it or ask the dealer to give you some more time to consider what to do.

Getting another 42HDS69 might be worth a try, but my guess is it'll work pretty much the same way. You may find another brand or possibly the HDX99's (if you've got the extra bread for one of those) more to your liking however, so keeping your options open sounds like a good idea for the time being.

It's been a while since I weighed in, so I thought I would post. I've been trying to stay away from the boards and actually watch my set, but I've seen a couple of members post findings similar to the one I quoted above. As I've described before, IMO, this "flicker" is the Contrast automatically adjusting to changes in the image; when there is more "white" in the image, the Contrast...or lets say level of black...lightens, and when there is less white, the image darkens to try and "correct" it. In my set, I can recreate this 100% of the time by doing this (if you have a current gen Denon player, I would think you could do this too...and maybe other players are similar):

take a DVD and pause it at a black part...not a dark scene, as there is still shifting light, but a BLACK scene, like before the movie starts. I then press pause, which on my player puts a WHITE pause symbol on the image and freezes it. The image maintains rock-steady black or Contrast levels during pause, which tells me the issue is not a "flicker" or problem holding blacks. THEN, when the white pause goes away, and now the scene should just be all black again, the WHOLE SCREEN, as opposed to just parts or sections...the WHOLE SCREEN systematically shifts down Contrast to make the blacks "blacker". And the way it does it is like it goes from the "light black", from when the white pause button was in the image, to darker, darker still, darker yet, OK this is the dark I will settle on. It does it quickly of course, but not nearly so quick it can't be detected by the human eye. Now, imagine you're trying to find this during a normal movie scene; it's not likely to happen during a normal, bright scene...the set will see lots of light in the image and maintain a Contrast or black level. And during a dark scene, the subtleties of light coming in and out of the image cause the set to shift up, shift down...maybe shift 2 levels down in one scene, real quick shift a level up...then 3 levels up, 2 levels down, etc. Sounds like a "flicker" doesn't it? Try recreating the test I describe above and I believe you too will be convinced the set is "supposed" to do this. What I mean by supposed is it's a feature or flaw of the panel or whatever, but I do not believe it is a "defect". (The only exception would be one poster, who I believe said his set flickers when he has a DVD paused...mine NEVER has).

Now the question is do all the sets do this? If I can describe it to Hitachi this way, can they confirm that "feature" and think of a way to defeat it...or release firmware to defeat it? Some might argue that it is a "benefit"...I mean, after all, what I am describing is that the set will automatically adjust the Contrast or black level based upon the amount of light it detects in the image; got more white, I need to lighten real quick...oh, now I'm darker, quick, black, black, blacken. Wait, there's some light, oops, now it's dark again. Just like Delphi and others have said, it is like the set has trouble "making up its mind" which Contrast level is best during dark, light-shifting scenes. I say some, including Hitachi, may consider it a good feature, but of course it is distracting as hell and I, for one, cannot live with it. Tomorrow marks 30 days with my set and I am returning it for another 42HDS69. That'll start the clock running on that set, but from the start I will looking for the issue and if it crops up on 2 samples in a row, I will contact Hitachi and see if anything can be done. If not...and I haven't heard a lot of satisfaction from others who have gone this route...I will, unfortunately, be looking for a new model; probably shell out a few extra bucks and get a Pioneer. Like I said earlier, I feel like if I could describe the problem, as I see it, to an Engineer or the like, they'd know exactly what I was talking about and be like "oh, that's the such and such and here's maybe how to fix it" or "sure, that's the such and such...it doesn't go away, it's supposed to do that". But who will I end up talking to, those who've been through it already...some minimum-wage telemarketer taking notes on set complaints and passing them along to their pencil-pushing Supervisors?

CD


I said I wasn't going to try looking for the flicker on my set but I did after reading your post...Still nothing. Fiance can't see it either so I give up. I however think you should contact Hitachi with your findings...perhaps email them and wait for a reply?

The main issue for me on the 42HDS69 is not the floating blacks, but simply the overall brightness of the display (including the blacks) in general. It just seems to be designed for brighter ambient lighting conditions than I'm used to.

With the right lighting conditions the picture looks very good. However, in darker ambient lighting, the limited depth of the blacks (and slight flotation of the black levels) starts to become more noticeable. And as you reduce contrast to compensate for the dimmer surroundings, you begin to get a bit more noticeable dithering/less smooth gradations in the color. So the PQ starts to degrade in several ways.

Problem is that I prefer to do most of my viewing in more subdued lighting. So that's got me thinking about other alternatives, such as adding a piece of sightly tinted glass in front of the display (which has safety/workability issues), or trying to finagle a deal on a 42HDX99 (which I haven't seen yet, and may not be able to afford), or moving to a different brand with better depth. Or just adapting to viewing in brighter lighting (which seems to be difficult at night, as well as a bit wasteful in electricity).

Not sure which way I'll go on this yet, but I guess the first step is probably to check out the HDX99, to see if that's more what I'm after.

Another factor that may or may not be worth considering is that the panel will gradually begin to get dimmer over time as the phosphors age.

The main issue for me on the 42HDS69 is not the floating blacks, but simply the overall brightness of the display (including the blacks) in general. It just seems to be designed for brighter ambient lighting conditions than I'm used to.

With the right lighting conditions the picture looks very good. However, in darker ambient lighting, the limited depth of the blacks (and slight flotation of the black levels) starts to become more noticeable. And as you reduce contrast to compensate for the dimmer surroundings, you begin to get a bit more noticeable dithering/less smooth gradations in the color. So the PQ starts to degrade in several ways.

Problem is that I prefer to do most of my viewing in more subdued lighting. So that's got me thinking about other alternatives, such as adding a piece of sightly tinted glass in front of the display (which has safety/workability issues), or trying to finagle a deal on a 42HDX99 (which I haven't seen yet, and may not be able to afford), or moving to a different brand with better depth. Or just adapting to viewing in brighter lighting (which seems to be difficult at night, as well as a bit wasteful in electricity).

Not sure which way I'll go on this yet, but I guess the first step is probably to check out the HDX99, to see if that's more what I'm after.


Have you considered back lighting the display?

I hear you on the blacks as I wish they were as dark as the Panasonic but I just love the extra resolution, which is certainly quite noticeable.

I think the Hitachi 42HDS69 looks great for most scenes , even dark scenes, so long as there are bright enough image elements to offset a dark expanse. For example, I watched a documentary recently on Mars on PBS and the outer space scenes (think Star Trek) looked fanatstic with the stars and planets offsetting the darkness. I was very impressed. It really pooped off the display.

I think it's a case where you simply have to give up something with either display.

.... As I've described before, IMO, this "flicker" is the Contrast automatically adjusting to changes in the image; when there is more "white" in the image, the Contrast...or lets say level of black...lightens, and when there is less white, the image darkens to try and "correct" it. In my set, I can recreate this 100% of the time by doing this (if you have a current gen Denon player, I would think you could do this too...and maybe other players are similar):

take a DVD and pause it at a black part...not a dark scene, as there is still shifting light, but a BLACK scene, like before the movie starts. I then press pause, which on my player puts a WHITE pause symbol on the image and freezes it. The image maintains rock-steady black or Contrast levels during pause, which tells me the issue is not a "flicker" or problem holding blacks. THEN, when the white pause goes away, and now the scene should just be all black again, the WHOLE SCREEN, as opposed to just parts or sections...the WHOLE SCREEN systematically shifts down Contrast to make the blacks "blacker". And the way it does it is like it goes from the "light black", from when the white pause button was in the image, to darker, darker still, darker yet, OK this is the dark I will settle on....
CD

I just purchased a 42HDS69 last weekend (f/w v110...) and I also replicated the contrast shift last night, but with a different technique. I have my set connected to cable, but I do not have a CableCard. When I tune to a digital channel that I do not have access to, all I get is a black screen. The channel number displays (in white) on the screen for ~5-10 seconds. When the channel number goes away, I also see the screen get blacker, in what looks like 3-4 steps, over about 5 seconds (or less) total.

I think I was using Day mode with factory defaults except for contrast, which I had set to 30%. (So I think that means dynamic contrast on, and black enhance off.) I can double check my settings and try changing dynamic contrast and black enhance. (Edit: This effect was more noticible to me with dynamic contrast on, but I could stlll see it with dynamic contrast off.)

You probably could also reproduce this by selecting an input that is not connected. When the input menu goes away, I bet the panel will shift black levels.

Hey folks, Newbie here.
I'm planning on purchasing my first plasma and the Hitachi 42HDS69 is one of my options.
I came accross this in my research note the Slight flicker issue and the explanation given.

From Consumer Reports:
"Slight flicker. Unlike most other plasma TVs, the Hitachi does not display 1080i HD programming, which is interlaced, as progressive content. As a result, you might see a subtle flickering effect on the edges of highly detailed images. You might not notice it watching TV programming from a normal viewing distance, but it might be noticeable in very close viewing or if you use the display as a computer monitor running at 1080i."

Is this the problem being discussed? Should I drop Hitachi as an option?
At any rate these forums have been a huge resource for me. Thanks.

Hey folks, Newbie here.
I'm planning on purchasing my first plasma and the Hitachi 42HDS69 is one of my options.
I came accross this in my research note the Slight flicker issue and the explanation given.

From Consumer Reports:
"Slight flicker. Unlike most other plasma TVs, the Hitachi does not display 1080i HD programming, which is interlaced, as progressive content. As a result, you might see a subtle flickering effect on the edges of highly detailed images. You might not notice it watching TV programming from a normal viewing distance, but it might be noticeable in very close viewing or if you use the display as a computer monitor running at 1080i."

Is this the problem being discussed? Should I drop Hitachi as an option?
At any rate these forums have been a huge resource for me. Thanks.

I think the issue being discussed is best described as a "Contrast" shift/adjustment rather than flicker (even I use the term flicker), which can be best described as noticing a change(rapid at some times) in the level of contrast during dark/night scenes in movies or tv.

Some movies are not as bad as others, and by increasing the brightness of the TV, it lowers the effect. Most consider it a bandaid. Hopefully it will corrected via firmware update. Otherwise this is a great TV for the price.

I think the issue being discussed is best described as a "Contrast" shift/adjustment rather than flicker (even I use the term flicker), which can be best described as noticing a change(rapid at some times) in the level of contrast during dark/night scenes in movies or tv.

Some movies are not as bad as others, and by increasing the brightness of the TV, it lowers the effect. Most consider it a bandaid. Hopefully it will corrected via firmware update. Otherwise this is a great TV for the price.

Cheers, Thanks for the clarification and recommendation.

I think the issue being discussed is best described as a "Contrast" shift/adjustment rather than flicker (even I use the term flicker), which can be best described as noticing a change(rapid at some times) in the level of contrast during dark/night scenes in movies or tv.

Some movies are not as bad as others, and by increasing the brightness of the TV, it lowers the effect. Most consider it a bandaid. Hopefully it will corrected via firmware update. Otherwise this is a great TV for the price.
Agreed JR...the flicker issue is different than the one CR describes. This effects the whole panels black level, not just edges of displayed images. It is a great looking set at the price, but I, for one, cannot live with the Contrast shifts; I am returning it to make sure it doesn't just manifest itself in a few bad samples, but that it is inherent to the model itself and if so, I will opt for another TV.

CD

Agreed JR...the flicker issue is different than the one CR describes. This effects the whole panels black level, not just edges of displayed images. It is a great looking set at the price, but I, for one, cannot live with the Contrast shifts; I am returning it to make sure it doesn't just manifest itself in a few bad samples, but that it is inherent to the model itself and if so, I will opt for another TV.

CD

Thanks for the input.
Didn't think buying a TV would ever be this frustrating.
If you don't mind me asking what would you trade it in for?
My other option would be a Panasonic or possibly an LG.

I feel yer pain, jr. And I'll be curious to here what CD has to say on other panels as well, if he decides to return the Hitachi. FWIW, I've been shoppin for an FPD (and waitin for their prices to drop) fairly seriously for probably more than year now, and still haven't made up my mind. So my advice (FWTW) is to keep areadin' and keep alookin' (and keep adjustin') till you find somethin that really floats yer boat.I came accross this in my research note the Slight flicker issue and the explanation given.

From Consumer Reports:
"Slight flicker. Unlike most other plasma TVs, the Hitachi does not display 1080i HD programming, which is interlaced, as progressive content. As a result, you might see a subtle flickering effect on the edges of highly detailed images. You might not notice it watching TV programming from a normal viewing distance, but it might be noticeable in very close viewing or if you use the display as a computer monitor running at 1080i."As others have said, the flicker being referred to by CR is probably the "twitter" which is normal with certain types of content on interlaced displays. Even that can be reduced though via some adjustment to NR and Sharpness on the display, if it becomes particularly bothersome. (See the remarks on interlacing issues here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8352042&&#post8352042) for more on this.) I've been watching interlaced TVs all my life though (both HD and SD) so it doesn't seem to bother me. YMMV though. Alot of other folks prefer the progressive displays because they have a little more "stable" or "cinematic" feel. There can be pros and cons on both sides though.

If you've got a link to the CR article btw, I'd be curious to hear what else they say about the HDS69.

As far as the fluctuating contrast/blacks are concerned, there actually seem to be three dfferent "dynamic effects" at work. The three effects are: 1) floating black levels, 2) contrast/gamma correction or palette optimization, and 3) contrast clamping.

1. FLOATING BLACK LEVELS

The floating black levels are most noticeable when trying to watch the display with very low or no surrounding illumination. So first rule is to use adequate background illumination when watching the display particularly at night.

The flotation of the blacks is a little more pronounced in the Day-Dynamic mode than in the Day-Normal and Night modes. However, you may find the add'l contrast enhancement of the Day-Dynamic mode beneficial when trying to view darker films, because it will elevate shadow information so it's easier to see and looks more dynamic. So I wouldn't necessarily rule it out. Just be aware if you're seeing a noticeable drop in the black levels when the screen goes completely or nearly all black with the Day-Dynamic mode, that that can probably be made less dramatic/noticeable by going to either the Day-Normal or Night modes.

2. CONTRAST/GAMMA CORRECTION OR PALETTE OPTIMIZATION

I'm being deliberately vague about exactly what to call this effect to cover my ass, since I'm not sure exactly what the correct term for this is.

This effect is much more noticeable when using the Dynamic Contrast Mode (which is a different setting btw than the Day-Dynamic Day/Night mode, and located further down in the video menu). So first rule is set the Contrast Mode to Normal rather than Dynamic. Do this for all three Day/Night modes, to insure that it doesn't accidentally creep back on, when switching between them, as delphi96 and remotecontrolled mentioned several posts ago.

Rule #2 for this effect is to avoid contrast/palette correction hot spots in the Contrast control. As mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8406287&&#post8406287) and elsewhere by others, there seem to be "hot spots" in the Contrast adjustment, where the display is particularly prone to making noticeable contrast/gamma corrections.

On my 42HDS69, those "hot zones" appear to be at ~33% Contrast for the Day-Normal and Night modes, and at ~19% and ~60% in the Day-Dynamic mode (for my component 480p input). It may vary depending on the display, input or content though. So don't just go by my numbers, check it out on your own display.

An easy way to find these hot spots is to pause on a frame that has a fair amount of dark detail, and then step the Contrast up and down until you find the setting (or settings) where the darker tones in the picture make an abrupt change in brightness. Setting Contrast at that level or very close to it seems to create much more noticeable contrast fluctuations in the picture.

If you obey the two rules above (ie set the Contrast Mode to Normal rather than Dynamic, and avoid hot spots in the Contrast control), I think there should be little or no contrast correction visible with normal viewing. (I see none on my TV.)

3. CONTRAST CLAMPING

As mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8352042&&#post8352042), the 42HDS69 also has a contrast clamping feature, which is designed to keep scenes with a high average picture level (APL) from becoming too overpowering to your eyes. This can be a useful feature to have on some displays with less than perfect contrast ratios and black levels (if you don't abuse it), because it can permit you to set contrast a little bit higher than perhaps you normally would to improve the look of darker scenes, and the display will automatically "clamp down" on brighter scenes so they're not as stressful on your eyes. (I still would not advise setting contrast any higher than what's comfortable for your eyes given the surrounding illumination in your viewing area though.)

This feature should operate more or less transparently, so you generally shouldn't notice the clamping effects in normal viewing. However, just so you know (and might guess from above), the clamping is "weakest" at low contrast settings, and "strongest" at high contrast settings. What I mean by strong and weak is that the clamping will go into effect on darker and darker images the higher Contrast is set. To give an idea what I mean, here are the clamp points for DVE patterns of varying brightness (APL) using the Night mode on my own TV with a component DVD player (with a 0 IRE black level).

40% APL clamped at ~60% Contrast (DVE Chapter 14, Title 3)
60% APL clamped at ~20% Contrast (DVE Chapter 14, Title 4)
80% APL clamped at ~9% Contrast (DVE Chapter 14, Title 5)
100% APL clamped at ~9% Contrast (DVE Chapter 14, Title 6)


This is with the Brightness control adjusted close to DVE spec. Since the clamping is dependent on APL, the clamp points will likely change depending on how other controls (e.g. Brightness, Black Enhancement, Day/Night and Contrast Mode) are set on the display, and depending on the black level of and possibly other characteristics of the source. (See this subsequent post #206 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8483638&&#post8483638) for more.)

The only time I notice the changes in picture intensity due to the clamping on the 42HDS69 is when looking at stills and other patterns on my PC, and patterns in DVE. The clamping is so quick in normal video viewing, that it just seems to come and go more or less invisibly.

If for some strange reason you do begin to notice the clamping at higher Contrast settings, then you might try reducing Contrast (and possibly also your surrounding illumination a little) to see if that helps. Or possibly change to a different Day/Night mode. Generally speaking though I'd say this is a feature which can simply be ignored and left to go about it's business as usual.

Contrast/white level clamping is different than "crushed" or "clipped" whites btw. There appears to be no crushing or clipping of whites on the TV.

SUMMARIZING...

If I discover any more tricks on this stuff, I'll be sure to pass them along (and hope others will continue to as well), however, since implementing the above, I've seen virtually no perceptible flickering, or fluctuations of contrast in the picture on my TV during normal viewing.

The only effect that's occasionally noticeable to me is the floating of blacks (primarily with the Day-Dynamic mode) when the screen goes nearly or completely dark.

My main beef with the 42HDS69 is that it seems to be suited for use with brighter surroundings than I prefer for my usual nighttime viewing. The black levels are generally too high and the range of contrast adjustment seems a bit higher than I need. That's why I'm thinkin that maybe a different brand or model might perhaps be a better a fit for me. I know that the phosphors will gradually begin to fade over time as well though, so that's another thing I'm trying to factor in too.

This is the first plasma I've tried however. And there are alot of things I like about this TV, so whichever way I go, I suspect I'll probably always have a little soft spot for the ALiS 42HDS69's.

Have you considered back lighting the display?Absolutely. I've experimented with various lighting and background lighting arrangements. And it definitely helps, and although I'm not a fan of the fluorescents, I'd recommend using some type of background lighting (maybe some track lighting or whatever) to pretty much all plasma users in general.

The level of background lighting needed for this display is considerably higher than I'm used to for CRT viewing at night though. And just a little overpowering when you're trying to wind down at the end of the day. During the day it's less of a problem.I hear you on the blacks as I wish they were as dark as the Panasonic but I just love the extra resolution, which is certainly quite noticeable.Me too. I'm not sure whether it's the 1080p processing or the ALiS technology or what, but the level of detail this TV seems to pull from DVDs continues to amaze me. And I think you're probably right that there are other TVs (including maybe the Hitachi HDX99's) which can probably go visibly deeper in the blacks.I think the Hitachi 42HDS69 looks great for most scenes , even dark scenes, so long as there are bright enough image elements to offset a dark expanse. For example, I watched a documentary recently on Mars on PBS and the outer space scenes (think Star Trek) looked fanatstic with the stars and planets offsetting the darkness. I was very impressed. It really pooped off the display.

I think it's a case where you simply have to give up something with either display.I read you on all of the above, and also find myself being sucked into the picture as well (in spite of the less than perfect blacks), once all settings on the TV are tweaked just right.

Bottom line: there are alot of things I like about the picture on the Hitachi, so it's proving to be a tough call which way to go.

I think the issue being discussed is best described as a "Contrast" shift/adjustment rather than flicker (even I use the term flicker), which can be best described as noticing a change(rapid at some times) in the level of contrast during dark/night scenes in movies or tv.

Some movies are not as bad as others, and by increasing the brightness of the TV, it lowers the effect. Most consider it a bandaid. Hopefully it will corrected via firmware update. Otherwise this is a great TV for the price.Interesting suggestion, metalsaber. I'm a little reluctant to raise Brightness above spec, because the blacks already look elevated enough as it is. Maybe keeping a little background noise going in the image (by elevating Brightness) will reduce some more of the "float" in the black levels though?

Thanks for the input.
Didn't think buying a TV would ever be this frustrating.
If you don't mind me asking what would you trade it in for?
My other option would be a Panasonic or possibly an LG.
Well, my credit would be with CC, so that leaves the Panny 60u and Sammy 4253 at 42". I have to admit, the 4253 looked pretty good the other day when I took my first 42hds69 back. It was right above the Hitachi on display and from just some quick playing around, it looked better. Between the Panny and Sammy I would probably take the Sammy, unless I hear it is just awful once you get it home (please, I am inviting feedback). If that was the case, then I would probably opt to just take the refund and shell out a few extra buck$ for a Pioneer...either a 4270 or do I dare dream, Pro940.

CD

Thanks for the advice ADU.
I've only been at it for about 6 months but patience is not one of my virtues. But more research is part and questions are part of the plan.

They won't let put a link until I have 5 posts under my belt. Spam reasons. If you google : Hitachi + Flicker it's about 5 links down.

Well, my credit would be with CC, so that leaves the Panny 60u and Sammy 4253 at 42". I have to admit, the 4253 looked pretty good the other day when I took my first 42hds69 back. It was right above the Hitachi on display and from just some quick playing around, it looked better. Between the Panny and Sammy I would probably take the Sammy, unless I hear it is just awful once you get it home (please, I am inviting feedback). If that was the case, then I would probably opt to just take the refund and shell out a few extra buck$ for a Pioneer...either a 4270 or do I dare dream, Pro940.

CD

Interesting. I had not even considered the Sammy. I always think LCD when I think of Samsung. Effective advertising I suppose.

Thanks for adding one more to the list. :D

And that should be 5 posts.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/news-electronics-computers/hitachi-42hds69-1080i-1024x1080-plasma-hdtv-6-06/overview/0606_hitachi-42hds69-1080i-1024x1080-plasma-hdtv_ov.htm

Dupilcate post

Absolutely. I've experimented with various lighting and background lighting arrangements. And it definitely helps, and although I'm not a fan of the fluorescents, I'd recommend using some type of background lighting (maybe some track lighting or whatever) to pretty much all plasma users in general.

The level of background lighting needed for this display is considerably higher than I'm used to for CRT viewing at night though. And just a little overpowering when you're trying to wind down at the end of the day. During the day it's less of a problem. Elevation may be driving the black levels up a little more on my display as well.Me too. I'm not sure whether it's the 1080p processing or the ALiS technology or what, but the level of detail this TV seems to pull from even SD sources (DVDs in my case) compared to many other flat panels continues to amaze me. And I think you're probably right that there are other TVs (including possibly the Hitachi HDX99's) which can probably go visibly deeper in the blacks. I think the HDX99's are supposed to cut the black level in foot-lamberts approximately in half compared to the HDS69 and HDT79 (from about .05 to about .03-.025, so I've been told), so I'm anxious to check the 99's out for myself to see what that looks like. I think they're achieving the deeper blacks via a more darkly tinted front pane on the panel, so that'll probably bring down the peak white levels as well fwtw. That might be less desireable during the day, but it might help to reduce the impression of dithering further on the display at night as well. This is all just guesswork and speculation though until I can see the real McCoy.I read you on all of the above, and also find myself being sucked into the picture as well (in spite of the less than perfect blacks), once all settings on the TV are tweaked just right.

Bottom line: there are alot of things I like about the picture on the Hitachi, so it's proving to be a tough call which way to go.

ADU your posts are interesting and a pleasure to read. Thank you for sharing your input and experience.

I'll be honest, I started debating whether to return the 42hds69
, in regards to the blacks not being as black as I would've liked but, but I think one can become quite obsessed over image quality particulars, especially after reading this forum, and when it comes to technology that is still young and imperfect, to the extent that they will never be statisfied.

I'm passed my 30 days for a return and I'm pretty much decided on simply enjoying the display and letting go of some things that are not perfect. Life's too short. :)

I also think that, simply, the 50% higher resolution of the Hitachi is what is responsible for the greater visible resolution and detail you see and not any kind of special processing. It is a significant difference that I notice quite easily over the fine Panasonics.

Well I upgraded my Firmware to the latest 115 (I believe). This had no change in the issue being discussed regarding the Contrast shifting.

Here are a few things I've noticed:

1.) As suggested above, if you add some light to your viewing area, the contrast shift is not as noticeable. However again, this is just a band-aid to the problem. I should be able to watch in a fairly dark room.

2.) Latest firmware does not correct this issue (115 I believe).

3.) I'm using a 56 contrast and 58-61 brightness with Black Enhancement set to Low.
Gives a nice bright scene picture and dark viewing with "some to minimal" contrast shifting. I watched a bit of Sin City in this mode and the Contrast Shift is pretty minimal or non-existant. However throwing in Tears of the Sun and watching the first night scene, the contrast shifting was more noticeable than Sin City.

My one questions to Hitachi and other 42HDS69 owners is what is the concensus to what the "Dynamic Contrast" setting is in the video menu?
What I mean is that you have the option between Normal Contrast or Dynamic Contrast? What exactly does that mean?

My uneducated opinion leads me to:
1.) Normal Contrast - "Should" work as any normal tv would and that whatever the contrast level you set is what you get. Period.
2.) Dynamic Contrast - This makes me think that by using this setting, the TV determines based on your current Contrast setting would look best given the current scene being depicted on the screen. Thus making the Contrast Dynamic and not fixed.

So what I'm getting at is if my "theory" would be correct, then does anyone else think that maybe the "Normal Contrast" mode is actually BROKEN? In that it's ACTUALLY using the Dynamic Setting?

Just a theory, but what I see appears to be "DYNAMIC" contrast adjustments even though I'm telling it to use a "NORMAL" contrast mode.

Is there anyone experiencing flickering on the HDX99 directors series? We just got it in at bestbuy magnolia and havent been able to put it out on display yet.

I am buying it this weekend HDS69 or HDX99, I dont care about the other features of the HDX99 besides it being black.

BUT ill pay more for the HDX99 if there is no flicker issues. So has anyone had problems at all with the HDX99? Even a few experiences of flicker on the HDX will get me to try out the HDS instead before forking out more money.

Well I upgraded my Firmware to the latest 115 (I believe). This had no change in the issue being discussed regarding the Contrast shifting.

Here are a few things I've noticed:

1.) As suggested above, if you add some light to your viewing area, the contrast shift is not as noticeable. However again, this is just a band-aid to the problem. I should be able to watch in a fairly dark room.

2.) Latest firmware does not correct this issue (115 I believe).

3.) I'm using a 56 contrast and 58-61 brightness with Black Enhancement set to Low.
Gives a nice bright scene picture and dark viewing with "some to minimal" contrast shifting. I watched a bit of Sin City in this mode and the Contrast Shift is pretty minimal or non-existant. However throwing in Tears of the Sun and watching the first night scene, the contrast shifting was more noticeable than Sin City.

My one questions to Hitachi and other 42HDS69 owners is what is the concensus to what the "Dynamic Contrast" setting is in the video menu?
What I mean is that you have the option between Normal Contrast or Dynamic Contrast? What exactly does that mean?

My uneducated opinion leads me to:
1.) Normal Contrast - "Should" work as any normal tv would and that whatever the contrast level you set is what you get. Period.
2.) Dynamic Contrast - This makes me think that by using this setting, the TV determines based on your current Contrast setting would look best given the current scene being depicted on the screen. Thus making the Contrast Dynamic and not fixed.

So what I'm getting at is if my "theory" would be correct, then does anyone else think that maybe the "Normal Contrast" mode is actually BROKEN? In that it's ACTUALLY using the Dynamic Setting?

Just a theory, but what I see appears to be "DYNAMIC" contrast adjustments even though I'm telling it to use a "NORMAL" contrast mode.


Interesting theory, too bad hitachi doesn't read this forum to answer your question...If your theory is right, then this should be a fairly simple fix.

I am yet to see this flicker, i've been watching dvd movies, hd and regular tv and still nothing...I actually gave up on looking. I believe i have about 60 hours (in about 5 days) on my set already and everything seems okay to me but then again, I could be blind.

Well, my credit would be with CC, so that leaves the Panny 60u and Sammy 4253 at 42". I have to admit, the 4253 looked pretty good the other day when I took my first 42hds69 back. It was right above the Hitachi on display and from just some quick playing around, it looked better. Between the Panny and Sammy I would probably take the Sammy, unless I hear it is just awful once you get it home (please, I am inviting feedback). If that was the case, then I would probably opt to just take the refund and shell out a few extra buck$ for a Pioneer...either a 4270 or do I dare dream, Pro940.

CD

FWIW CD, when I first started looking at Plasma's I was in a local high end store and was talking with the salesman and he said they had recently replaced carrying Samsung's with Hitachi's. That's kinda what turned me onto Hitachi and led to my 55 hdt79 purchase. He wasn't real specific, but said they were having a lot of "picture issues". They chose Hitachi because they also carry Fujitsu, which both companies have a dual plant together, make their own panels, and share technology. Also, from my understanding, videophiles think Fujitsu is the shiznit for Plasma's. Again, not to diss Samsung as I like their TV's, but that's what he said.

As for my hdt79, I haven't watched it but for 5 minutes of Gladiator to tell if it flicker's or not. I'm running the "break-in" cd/dvd for the first 100 hours and then can find out if I have issues like other's do. In the brief 5 minutes of Gladiator the picture was amazing but a little washed out, but I had all settings down from the break-in running.

puchall, The v110.0001 is the latest version of firmware for the hdt79 model and I think the hdt firmware # is different than the hds firmware # (hds model) v115 or such.

Glad this thread was started too, because I will be posting like crazy and probably have a restraining order against me from Hitachi, if I have a bad flicker problem. The way I purchased my hdt79 does not allow for me to return it, but it can allow for an exchange after the first year depending on certain things....and the flicker would be one of them. :)

FWIW CD, when I first started looking at Plasma's I was in a local high end store and was talking with the salesman and he said they had recently replaced carrying Samsung's with Hitachi's. That's kinda what turned me onto Hitachi and led to my 55 hdt79 purchase. He wasn't real specific, but said they were having a lot of "picture issues". They chose Hitachi because they also carry Fujitsu, which both companies have a dual plant together, make their own panels, and share technology. Also, from my understanding, videophiles think Fujitsu is the shiznit for Plasma's. Again, not to diss Samsung as I like their TV's, but that's what he said.
Well, in this forum, you don't hear much good about the Sammy's, but then again you don't hear much good about anything other than Panny or Pioneer either. I often wonder if the Panny-heads just flock here and create a bit of a bias; like on some other board they just love NEC or whatever and that's what everyone there takes as gospel. I admit, I shied away from even auditioning the Sammy because I read here about "reliability" issues. I've been lazy and haven't even picked up my new 42HDS69 yet. It's such a pain, because as far as I'm concerned you can't tell much in a store; the lighting is all high, you can't trust the source, and you have maybe, what, at most 3 sets you might be considering that you can compare side-by-side. I think you need to get it home to really figure out what's going on with a set, but then if it's not to your liking, you have to pull it down off the wall (in my case), pack it back up, schlep it back to the store, and go through the hell of deciding on a new set all over again. So I really need to get this figured out...I mean it's FOOTBALL season for god's sake!! I'll probably try one more sample of the Hitachi, pray like hell I get lucky and find a set with no flicker, if not...pound the hell out of Hitachi for a fix, and then just bite the bullet and go for a Pioneer; everyone seems to be happy with their Pioneer. I guess that would put me out of this thread, but it's not a good club to belong to.

CD

I called Hitachi about my flicker issue on my 55HDS52 and they told me I had an old firmware version and needed to upgrade to solve this problem. So about 2 wks ago I received the upgrade card in the mail and installed version V0102.0001 on to my set. Well since then I have not noticed any more flicker and waited this long to post to be sure of what I was seeing and now feel confident that this issue is now behind me and I can go on enjoying this beautiful set. Is there anyone else with this firmware version out there that has the flicker issue? If not then I am convinced that this is the fix some of us have been looking for but don't know if this will be the answer for all.

I called Hitachi about my flicker issue on my 55HDS52 and they told me I had an old firmware version and needed to upgrade to solve this problem. So about 2 wks ago I received the upgrade card in the mail and installed version V0102.0001 on to my set. Well since then I have not noticed any more flicker and waited this long to post to be sure of what I was seeing and now feel confident that this issue is now behind me and I can go on enjoying this beautiful set. Is there anyone else with this firmware version out there that has the flicker issue? If not then I am convinced that this is the fix some of us have been looking for but don't know if this will be the answer for all.
Lodef, great news for you! I, for one, will remain cautiously optimistic that a firmware upgrade is the fix (at least for 42HDS69 sets) as a) some other members have tried it, to no avail and b) I think that what some define as "flicker" is not the issue all of us are dealing with. Enjoy the set.

CD

I called Hitachi about my flicker issue on my 55HDS52 and they told me I had an old firmware version and needed to upgrade to solve this problem. So about 2 wks ago I received the upgrade card in the mail and installed version V0102.0001 on to my set. Well since then I have not noticed any more flicker and waited this long to post to be sure of what I was seeing and now feel confident that this issue is now behind me and I can go on enjoying this beautiful set. Is there anyone else with this firmware version out there that has the flicker issue? If not then I am convinced that this is the fix some of us have been looking for but don't know if this will be the answer for all.


I think you're the second person to report this findings...I remember someone posted receiving a fm upgrade that took care of their flicker, I also beleive that they had the same set (55HDs52).

Can someone else with this set confirm this?...it might at least give hope to the guys with the newer sets.

Im going to work tomorrow and I am going to test the flicker on the HDX99 series. What dvds are very prominent and easy to reproduce the flicker? And what contrast level is the settings at usually? Will sin city flicker? Maybe Blade? Im just going to bring a dvd to work and try it.

Ill post my findings to see if I can reproduce the problem on the hdx99.

Im going to work tomorrow and I am going to test the flicker on the HDX99 series. What dvds are very prominent and easy to reproduce the flicker? And what contrast level is the settings at usually? Will sin city flicker? Maybe Blade? Im just going to bring a dvd to work and try it.

Ill post my findings to see if I can reproduce the problem on the hdx99.

I don't know exactly what settings you should try, but you'll need to use dvd's that have a lot of dark scenes. Sin City is supposedly a good one. Also, some have stated that it is only/more noticeable in little to no lighting. Not sure if you can do that at work, but would be helpful in a darker environment.

On another note, I watched Black Hawk Down on my 55 hdt79 last night for about half an hour (tired of waiting for break-in to finish - at 50 hours now) and I thought the picture was great. I didn't notice any "flicker", but I'm not sure what it exactly looks like anyway. I also didn't dim the lighting, so not sure if that would have brought it out or not. If I do end up having it, I hope it is purely a software issue....that typically can be fixed.

If you've got The Incredibles, try Chapter 6 on that. The dark scenes where Incredible, Frozone, and Mirage are talking in their cars are prone to the floating/fluctuating black levels on my TV. It's usually easiest for me to see on very dark scenes with a 2.35AR, due to the black bars on top and bottom. And as ck1372 mentioned it's most visible in darker room lighting. Reducing Contrast on the TV may help make it more visible as well. My guess is you'll have a harder time seeing it on the HDX99 because of the darker tint, unless you can get light levels very low in your store.

I've been contacting the Magnolias near me every couple days,and none have the HDX99's yet (though I keep hearing it'll be any day now). Prices I've been quoted so far on the 42HDX99 make it seem rather unlikley one of these would be part of my purchasing plans for the near future, but I'd still like to get a look at one for comparison.

I just put it up...stayed there for an hour after closing to have it on display. So

FIRST IMPRESSIONS: (Only 10 mins of use max) because the doors were getting shut

Unfortunately all I had was a dvd to play and that was Phantom of the Opera.
I went to a few dark scenes and saw no shift in contrast. There was however, during the flashback, they cut to a black and white scene and that fluctated pretty annoyingly on the contrast but I cannot guarantee that, that was the tv or the dvd because the director might have intended for something like that as a style.

THERES A LOT OF SETTINGS ON THIS TV! Well more than I know how to calibrate.

The contrast settings have been seperated to Black level and White level
There is color management and color decoder settings too. The dvd was not impressive to watch but we were using a Denon DVD-1920 on component at 480p. I have to see what HD programming looks like as well as SD.

Black bezel is similiar to the old one but it looks really nice. Motorized base is pretty cool feature. Ill give a much more thorough review tomorrow when I actually play with it more.

PS: Couldnt see the "flicker" on the hds69 model either tho, only a few dark scenes on the hdd but it didnt flicker during those times.

Unfortunately all I had was a dvd to play and that was Phantom of the Opera. I went to a few dark scenes and saw no shift in contrast. There was however, during the flashback, they cut to a black and white scene and that fluctated pretty annoyingly on the contrast but I cannot guarantee that, that was the tv or the dvd because the director might have intended for something like that as a style.
Actually Ritchie, I'd be willing to bet that was the "flicker" issue, as you describe a scene that is exactly what these sets seem to have trouble handling. As I have described previously, the issue, as it presents itself with my set (and I have heard others agree), is when the set has white or bright light introduced to an otherwise dark scene, the set will adjust its Contrast to look for the best black level, given the new amount of white or bright light introduced to the image. It shifts black levels to find the new, best black it can display given the newly introduced white or bright light...and then sometimes does just the opposite, which is it darkens down when there is less white or bright light in the image, which is what causes this "flickering" effect; the set looking for the best Contrast or black level it can display, given the amount of white or bright light in the picture at any given time. This scene you talk about in Phantom..."black and white scene that fluctuated pretty badly"...sounds exactly like the issue at hand.

CD

And I was hoping that the HDX99 wouldnt have those problems. :(

Maybe ill just get suckered into the panny tv :(...i really hate that bezel.

I had a Hitachi 42HDT52 that was exhibiting this problem. Kill Bill Vol 2(the scene where they are at the graveyard and burying Uma) brought out the flicker on my tv(among other movies). It is an annoying problem and should be resolved by Hitachi instead of just releasing more models with the defect. I ended up returning the Hitachi for a Pioneer 4360.

Actually Ritchie, I'd be willing to bet that was the "flicker" issue, as you describe a scene that is exactly what these sets seem to have trouble handling. As I have described previously, the issue, as it presents itself with my set (and I have heard others agree), is when the set has white or bright light introduced to an otherwise dark scene, the set will adjust its Contrast to look for the best black level, given the new amount of white or bright light introduced to the image. It shifts black levels to find the new, best black it can display given the newly introduced white or bright light...and then sometimes does just the opposite, which is it darkens down when there is less white or bright light in the image, which is what causes this "flickering" effect; the set looking for the best Contrast or black level it can display, given the amount of white or bright light in the picture at any given time. This scene you talk about in Phantom..."black and white scene that fluctuated pretty badly"...sounds exactly like the issue at hand.

CD

If that's what the "flicker" is then I have it. I was thinking the "flicker" was more of a flash of white light or white dot on a part of the screen during a dark scene, but if you are saying the "flicker" is the whole screen adjusts to a lighter contrast when a lighter
source is introduced to a black background, then again, I have it. It wasn't what I expected and honestly it wasn't that bad. Also, it definitely is done on purpose.

I was watching Behind Enemy Lines and there were a couple scenes I saw it happen with. I had dimmed the lights in the room, but not completely off. One, was when Owen Wilson was talking with Gene Hackman in Hackman's quarters and there was dark background and lite scenes interspersed. The whole screen would subtly adjust at times when a lighter person/object/etc. came into the dark picture. It was more obvious in the scenes where you had the "bad guys" talking in their foreign language and the DVD would automatically put the translation in white on the screen. Again, a dark scene, then white translation, and boom, the whole screen would adjust it's black/white level.

Again, I didn't think it was that bad and I kind of understand what they are trying to do with the adjustment...I think. Maybe a firmware upgrade will "fix" it.

If that's what the "flicker" is then I have it. I was thinking the "flicker" was more of a flash of white light or white dot on a part of the screen during a dark scene, but if you are saying the "flicker" is the whole screen adjusts to a lighter contrast when a lighter
source is introduced to a black background, then again, I have it. It wasn't what I expected and honestly it wasn't that bad. Also, it definitely is done on purpose.

I was watching Behind Enemy Lines and there were a couple scenes I saw it happen with. I had dimmed the lights in the room, but not completely off. One, was when Owen Wilson was talking with Gene Hackman in Hackman's quarters and there was dark background and lite scenes interspersed. The whole screen would subtly adjust at times when a lighter person/object/etc. came into the dark picture. It was more obvious in the scenes where you had the "bad guys" talking in their foreign language and the DVD would automatically put the translation in white on the screen. Again, a dark scene, then white translation, and boom, the whole screen would adjust it's black/white level.

Again, I didn't think it was that bad and I kind of understand what they are trying to do with the adjustment...I think. Maybe a firmware upgrade will "fix" it.

I think its actually the worst mistake they made with such a great tv. You would think they would do focus group studies on this. Telling them, "Do you prefer this screen...(demonstrate a night scene with no auto contrast adjustment) or do you prefer this...and demonstrate a auto contrasting picture.

If anything I wish it was a feature you could turn off or on. Personally I'd prefer it off. There is a reason its dark...its a night scene. :mad:

I think its actually the worst mistake they made with such a great tv. You would think they would do focus group studies on this. Telling them, "Do you prefer this screen...(demonstrate a night scene with no auto contrast adjustment) or do you prefer this...and demonstrate a auto contrasting picture.

If anything I wish it was a feature you could turn off or on. Personally I'd prefer it off. There is a reason its dark...its a night scene. :mad:

Well, I NOW agree with you. Just watched a few minutes of Inside Man with all the lights turned off and it's absolutely noticeable and annoying as hell. I don't know how anyone could NOT notice this even if you are not a "videopile", which I am not. I didn't really calibrate my tv yet and most settings are between 30 to 50 (contrast, sharpness, etc). Brightness is close to 60-ish. BUT, it should definitely NOT be this noticeable.

Don't know if Hitachi Customer Service is open on weekends, but I'll be calling as soon as they are to raise hell. There is absolutely no way they couldn't see this "flicker" action during development. I just hope it's actually a firmware issue they can fix, otherwise I'll have to wait a year and go "lemon" with my extended warranty.

Damn.... :mad:

If that's what the "flicker" is then I have it. I was thinking the "flicker" was more of a flash of white light or white dot on a part of the screen during a dark scene, but if you are saying the "flicker" is the whole screen adjusts to a lighter contrast when a lighter
source is introduced to a black background, then again, I have it. It wasn't what I expected and honestly it wasn't that bad. Also, it definitely is done on purpose.

I was watching Behind Enemy Lines and there were a couple scenes I saw it happen with. I had dimmed the lights in the room, but not completely off. One, was when Owen Wilson was talking with Gene Hackman in Hackman's quarters and there was dark background and lite scenes interspersed. The whole screen would subtly adjust at times when a lighter person/object/etc. came into the dark picture. It was more obvious in the scenes where you had the "bad guys" talking in their foreign language and the DVD would automatically put the translation in white on the screen. Again, a dark scene, then white translation, and boom, the whole screen would adjust it's black/white level.

Again, I didn't think it was that bad and I kind of understand what they are trying to do with the adjustment...I think. Maybe a firmware upgrade will "fix" it.
Wow, CK, thank god someone has finally said "oh that...yeah, I have that". That's why I have described the issue like 3 or 4 times in this thread, to make sure as many people as possible see it and maybe recognize the issue in their own set. I mean, I'm not happy you have it...or even that I pointed it out to you, if you were blissfully unaware before...but I do feel a certain sort of vindication. I agree that if it is by design from Hitachi, and even remarked in one of my posts that on paper it sounds like a "feature" (Auto Contrast Adjustment) and those who can tolerate it might even consider it to be a good thing, but I find it horribly distracting. Like someone else has said, at the very least it should be defeatable; there is a reason the scene is dark and holding blacks is a virtue in any good playback system. So why would Hitachi go messing with that? FWIW, I picked up my replacement 42HDS69 tonight. I haven't got the heart to dive right in, so I'll probably run the break-in DVD all night and check for the issue some time tomorrow. Of course, I will keep you posted...after all, this is my thread :(

CD

I think its actually the worst mistake they made with such a great tv...If anything I wish it was a feature you could turn off or on. Personally I'd prefer it off. There is a reason its dark...its a night scene. :mad:
AMEN

CD

Well, I NOW agree with you. Just watched a few minutes of Inside Man with all the lights turned off and it's absolutely noticeable and annoying as hell. I don't know how anyone could NOT notice this even if you are not a "videopile", which I am not. I didn't really calibrate my tv yet and most settings are between 30 to 50 (contrast, sharpness, etc). Brightness is close to 60-ish. BUT, it should definitely NOT be this noticeable.

Don't know if Hitachi Customer Service is open on weekends, but I'll be calling as soon as they are to raise hell. There is absolutely no way they couldn't see this "flicker" action during development. I just hope it's actually a firmware issue they can fix, otherwise I'll have to wait a year and go "lemon" with my extended warranty.

Damn.... :mad:
Wow, I have ruined it for you, haven't I CK? But you're right, once you know, IMO, it's practically unwatchable. I will tell you that I noticed it MUCH worse when my set was still dialed way down from break-in. I had Contrast down around 30% and it looked fine, especially with DVDs, so I left it there for a while when I actually started watching content and this "flickering" thing (I've actually started calling it Contrast Adjustment since I really figured out what it was) was just so apparent. I did find that I could ALMOST eliminate it by bringing Contrast up; not to an unacceptable amount, as to wash out the picture, but actually to a more normal 50-55%. You mentioned your settings are still way down, so this might help you as well, but even though it was less-noticeable, I could still see it and it just didn't sit well with me. I'm on my second set, just to make sure it's not a small, bad sample, but if I find the same issue with this one, I'll almost certainly opt for another brand. Pioneer I think; Panny is ugly, Sammy is unreliable...evidently Hitachi has this issue (I think it stems from the ALiS panels...think of it, Alternate Lighting of Surfaces...doesn't that sound like this issue we're describing?), and the worse thing anyone can say about the Pioneer's is they're expensive. It's a shame too, because the picture on the 42HDS69, aside from this issue, has GOT to be the best bang-for-the-buck out there. I mean the price has just dropped through the floor and the 1080i native picture looks just stunning with 1080i HD Cable. I watched US Open tennis coverage on Universal HD and I have NEVER seen a crisper, sharper..."realer" image. But I'd rather shell out a few extra buck$ than sit and watch that "adjustment" and know I settled.

CD

Wow, I have ruined it for you, haven't I CK? But you're right, once you know, IMO, it's practically unwatchable. I will tell you that I noticed it MUCH worse when my set was still dialed way down from break-in. I had Contrast down around 30% and it looked fine, especially with DVDs, so I left it there for a while when I actually started watching content and this "flickering" thing (I've actually started calling it Contrast Adjustment since I really figured out what it was) was just so apparent. I did find that I could ALMOST eliminate it by bringing Contrast up; not to an unacceptable amount, as to wash out the picture, but actually to a more normal 50-55%. You mentioned your settings are still way down, so this might help you as well, but even though it was less-noticeable, I could still see it and it just didn't sit well with me. I'm on my second set, just to make sure it's not a small, bad sample, but if I find the same issue with this one, I'll almost certainly opt for another brand. Pioneer I think; Panny is ugly, Sammy is unreliable...evidently Hitachi has this issue (I think it stems from the ALiS panels...think of it, Alternate Lighting of Surfaces...doesn't that sound like this issue we're describing?), and the worse thing anyone can say about the Pioneer's is they're expensive. It's a shame too, because the picture on the 42HDS69, aside from this issue, has GOT to be the best bang-for-the-buck out there. I mean the price has just dropped through the floor and the 1080i native picture looks just stunning with 1080i HD Cable. I watched US Open tennis coverage on Universal HD and I have NEVER seen a crisper, sharper..."realer" image. But I'd rather shell out a few extra buck$ than sit and watch that "adjustment" and know I settled.

CD

No way CD would I or anyone not notice this. Even if I never read this board, I can't imagine I wouldn't have seen this, especially with the lights off. Unfortunately, the way I purchased the TV, I can't return it, but sure as hell will be all over Hitachi for the next year. After that it's all over my extended warranty company for 3 visits of the same issue and then hopefully a replacement model with a permanent fix to the problem. That is, if a firmware update doesn't fix it in the meantime.

It also makes sense what you say about the ALiS panel, but I think it also has to do with the HD PictureMaster III video processing of Hitachi's. At least I hope so, because that can probably be software updateable.

I did a web search on ALiS and found a "white paper" from what I think are the developers of the technology for Fujitsu. I only scanned over it because it looked very detailed and probably a little over my head (yeah, I admit it). One thing that caught my eye was the constant mention of HDTV, however. I don't have those feeds yet and ran the DVD's at 480p, so I'm wondering if I upgraded my sources would this not happen. The "white paper" is from 1999 and, again, there is no way this technology has been out for 7 years and no one has seen or brought the attention of this issue to the makers...UNLESS it is a new issue for the US market. We are a little bit behind the "8 ball" with respect to HD technology/spectrum in the US compared to the Japanese from what I understand.

Oh well, I will now be a thorn in Hitachi's side until I get satisfactory answers. Of course I will post any news on the forum. I didn't pay a nice chunk of change for a tv to look like this, but with my luck I should have expected it.

Wow, I have ruined it for you, haven't I CK? But you're right, once you know, IMO, it's practically unwatchable. I will tell you that I noticed it MUCH worse when my set was still dialed way down from break-in. I had Contrast down around 30% and it looked fine, especially with DVDs, so I left it there for a while when I actually started watching content and this "flickering" thing (I've actually started calling it Contrast Adjustment since I really figured out what it was) was just so apparent. I did find that I could ALMOST eliminate it by bringing Contrast up; not to an unacceptable amount, as to wash out the picture, but actually to a more normal 50-55%. You mentioned your settings are still way down, so this might help you as well, but even though it was less-noticeable, I could still see it and it just didn't sit well with me. I'm on my second set, just to make sure it's not a small, bad sample, but if I find the same issue with this one, I'll almost certainly opt for another brand. Pioneer I think; Panny is ugly, Sammy is unreliable...evidently Hitachi has this issue (I think it stems from the ALiS panels...think of it, Alternate Lighting of Surfaces...doesn't that sound like this issue we're describing?), and the worse thing anyone can say about the Pioneer's is they're expensive. It's a shame too, because the picture on the 42HDS69, aside from this issue, has GOT to be the best bang-for-the-buck out there. I mean the price has just dropped through the floor and the 1080i native picture looks just stunning with 1080i HD Cable. I watched US Open tennis coverage on Universal HD and I have NEVER seen a crisper, sharper..."realer" image. But I'd rather shell out a few extra buck$ than sit and watch that "adjustment" and know I settled.

CD

I sent them an email beginning of this week with no response. Kinda ticks me off. I'll end up calling them on this.

Here is what I want to know definitively and what you should ask them as well:
1.) Is the Auto Contrast Adjustment a feature to this TV?
2.) Is the Auto Contrast Adjustment a flaw or bad batch in some of the TVs?

If yes to #1, then:
1.) How did you decide that this was somehow an acceptable feature for a TV?
2.) Did you not have anyone that said this feature is quite annoying to the point of not being able to watch movies with dark scenes?
3.) Do you plan on: a.) Disabling the feature via firmware or b.) Adding an option via the setup menu or maintenance section to enable/disable this feature?

If yes to #2, then:
1.) Will be TV be replaced by a newer model that does not have this issue?


I would have to believe this would be a feature that could be toggled on or off. If not, I'm just not sure exactly what they were thinking when adding this "feature".

CD, please test immediately if possible. If this is somehow a isolated problem to a small batch of the 42HDS69, then I'll be taking mine back and asking for a newer one.

BTW what was the manufacture date on your guy's TVs?

Mine is May.

I sent them an email beginning of this week with no response. Kinda ticks me off. I'll end up calling them on this.

Here is what I want to know definitively and what you should ask them as well:
1.) Is the Auto Contrast Adjustment a feature to this TV?
2.) Is the Auto Contrast Adjustment a flaw or bad batch in some of the TVs?

If yes to #1, then:
1.) How did you decide that this was somehow an acceptable feature for a TV?
2.) Did you not have anyone that said this feature is quite annoying to the point of not being able to watch movies with dark scenes?
3.) Do you plan on: a.) Disabling the feature via firmware or b.) Adding an option via the setup menu or maintenance section to enable/disable this feature?

If yes to #2, then:
1.) Will be TV be replaced by a newer model that does not have this issue?


I would have to believe this would be a feature that could be toggled on or off. If not, I'm just not sure exactly what they were thinking when adding this "feature".

CD, please test immediately if possible. If this is somehow a isolated problem to a small batch of the 42HDS69, then I'll be taking mine back and asking for a newer one.

BTW what was the manufacture date on your guy's TVs?

Mine is May.

Not suprised on the non-email response. Most companies, even if they do respond to a customer email, will give you a "canned" answer anyway, so it probably wouldn't have helped in this situation, metal. I know in my industry we don't want to be on the hook for anything that is said in an email...can you say lawsuit. HA

Anyway, great questions. I will use if you don't mind, when I call them.

Also, I just went back downstairs and watched the rest of Behind Enemy Lines in the dark, BUT I adjusted the settings to what Cnet.com said to do for the HDS69 in their recent review. It helped dramatically, but I could still see it a little bit in some scenes. Man, I guess I didn't realize you'll have to play with these plasma's alot more than my Sony LCD. I haven't touched a thing on that except for a little reduction in brightness/color/etc.

As for my Hitachi, I have the 55" HDT79 model and it was manufactured in August 06 with the most recent software version Hitachi has for it.

The saga continues....

I sent them an email beginning of this week with no response. Kinda ticks me off. I'll end up calling them on this.

Here is what I want to know definitively and what you should ask them as well:
1.) Is the Auto Contrast Adjustment a feature to this TV?
2.) Is the Auto Contrast Adjustment a flaw or bad batch in some of the TVs?

If yes to #1, then:
1.) How did you decide that this was somehow an acceptable feature for a TV?
2.) Did you not have anyone that said this feature is quite annoying to the point of not being able to watch movies with dark scenes?
3.) Do you plan on: a.) Disabling the feature via firmware or b.) Adding an option via the setup menu or maintenance section to enable/disable this feature?

If yes to #2, then:
1.) Will be TV be replaced by a newer model that does not have this issue?


I would have to believe this would be a feature that could be toggled on or off. If not, I'm just not sure exactly what they were thinking when adding this "feature".

CD, please test immediately if possible. If this is somehow a isolated problem to a small batch of the 42HDS69, then I'll be taking mine back and asking for a newer one.

BTW what was the manufacture date on your guy's TVs?

Mine is May.

I think the first two questions will get them off the hook...I mean if ck plans on raising hell and asks those two qustions, the customer service guy/gal will say "yes, it's a feature" to get off the hook. Instead tell them you believe your tv is broken and explain your findings. Make sure you get a reasonable answer before hanging up (ask for the president if you have to...lol). I called Hitachi before I bought my set and ask them if they were still having flickering issues with their 06 models and the lady said "no, that was last years model, no one has complained about this years models". Had I asked if there was a fix for this years model, she might have admitted there was a problem by saying "no, just turn off your black level enhancement" She told me that was the cause for last years flicker.

I still haven't seen this beast yet on my T79, neither can my wifey...but I still want them to fix it in case i finally see it on mine.

I tried using compent output with my Sammy HD-860.
The contrast Adjusting was still there.

I went back to HDMI and tried it in 480p, 720p, and 1080i and still the same issue.

So at least it doesn't appear to be specific input problem.

I tried using compent output with my Sammy HD-860.
The contrast Adjusting was still there.

I went back to HDMI and tried it in 480p, 720p, and 1080i and still the same issue.

So at least it doesn't appear to be specific input problem.
Damn, I was hoping you might be on to something there, because I was also running my upconverting DVD player at 480p, through component output, because I hadn't sprung for an HDMI cable yet. If upconverting to 720p or 1080i, which I was going to do anyway, would have fixed the issue, it would have been a no-brainer.

CD

I've had my 55HD69 for one week. It's great for sports, but I do have the flicker problem. I was able to fix it for cable viewing by adjusting up the contrast and brightness settings into the 50s. But that fix hasn't work for DVD. I have an Oppo 971 at 720p over HDMI.

I adjusted the settings to what Cnet.com said to do for the HDS69 in their recent review. ..

Do you have a link to these settings?

Thanks

Do you have a link to these settings?

Thanks


http://reviews.cnet.com/Hitachi_42HDS69/9603-6482_7-31864384.html?tag=tip-2507206&messageID=2507206

Thanks for the link. These settings have largely resolved my flicker. I get an occassional single flick within a scene as the TV makes a quick change (correction?) It's a lot better than the constant flicker-flicker-flicker that I used to get in dark scenes. However, now I see why this TV gets bad reviews for black levels. My blacks aren't very deep/black now.

They way I had it set up before, I had pretty good blacks - but constant flicker.

I can't say I'm thrilled about this, but I can live with it. Returning/exchanging it just isn't an option. I love the size of the screen and it's fantastic for sports. The black/flicker trade off is just going to be the one thing that keeps this from being a perfect set.

It's been said, but I honestly believe that the flicker issue is caused by Hitachi's "contrast mode." Even when you set it to "normal" instead of "dynamic" it's still not completely defeated. They need to release a firmwire version that allows us to set this to "off." I'll bet my left nut that this completely solves all flicker problems.

I recently changed settings for my DVD source through component and I'm not seeing any flicker in the past few days.

42HDS69

Settings are:

77 Contrast
61 Brightness
24 Color
40 Sharpness
Color Temp. High
Black Enhancement Low
Contrast Mode Normal

Three changed settings were Contrast (increased), Brightness (increased), and Black Enhancement (from off to low)

Two test DVDs were Saving Private Ryan (night scene in church), where I saw flicker before, and a rented War of the Worlds. Especially with the later, with so many night scenes, I expected to see it and I didn't noticed it once. The night scenes also looked suprisingly awesome with nice blacks for most scenes. Interestingly, it appears Steven Spielberg used the same kind of contrast effect for both films.

I viewed them in a mostly dark room.

I recently changed settings for my DVD source through component and I'm not seeing any flicker in the past few days.

42HDS69

Settings are:

77 Contrast
61 Brightness
24 Color
40 Sharpness
Color Temp. High
Black Enhancement Low
Contrast Mode Normal

Three changed settings were Contrast (increased), Brightness (increased), and Black Enhancement (from off to low)

Two test DVDs were Saving Private Ryan (night scene in church), where I saw flicker before, and a rented War of the Worlds. Especially with the later, with so many night scenes, I expected to see it and I didn't noticed it once. The night scenes also looked suprisingly awesome with nice blacks for most scenes. Interestingly, it appears Steven Spielberg used the same kind of contrast effect for both films.

I viewed them in a mostly dark room.
Wow Delphi, that's pretty hot isn't it? This set has already got some Black Level issues; aren't you completely washed out at Contrast 77% and Brightness 61%? Is that too high a price to pay to get rid of this "defect"?

Guys, you'll see my new post, which is also posted in the Official Hitachi thread, but I'm not feeling good about all things Hitachi these days.

CD

Guys, let me weigh in here. First, as you might have gathered from my heading, yes, my new 42HDS69 does exactly the same thing as my last one. If anything, it is even worse, although I suspect that has something to do with the fact that with the last set, I watched a few things right away (blissfully unaware of any issue), just to play with my new toy and then really didn't do any critical viewing until I had 100 hours of break-in DVD under my belt; this time, since I knew what I was looking for, I just dialed everything down to 20% and started viewing. Before I even fired up a movie, I did my standard "torture" test...you know, black panel, white pause button, etc...and my heart was instantly broken. I then watched The Doors, which I only picked up because I'm a big Oliver Stone fan and had never seen this particular flick (and it was only $6.50 at Target), but it turned out to be a pretty good pic to test the set. It's got a LOT of dark material and on the new 42HDS60 it was really an unwatchable mess. I mean granted, I'm sure this wasn't the best transfer in the world and all, but still...it was horrible. BTW, FWIW, if anyone is really still thinking that tracking manufacturing and firmware is of any significance, my new set was just manufactured, August 06, and the firmware is v115.001, which I assume must be the most recent.

So now I'm torn. With the first set, I didn't even bother contacting Hitachi or looking for a firmware solution, because of the few people who tried it in this forum, it didn't seem to help, plus I knew I was going to return that set and try another sample of the model anyway, so I figured why beat that one to death. I had all intentions of doing everything I could to fix the "issue", if possible, with this one but at this point I am pretty down on Hitachi. I am firmly convinced this is inherent to the ALiS panel and that, at the very least, ALL 42HDS69 must do it (haven't people reported it on the HDT as well?). I consider there to be 2 kinds of 42HDS69 owners in the World; those who see this Auto Contrast Adjustment and those who just don't know what they're looking for.

And if I can say so guys, god bless you for it, but I think this "where did you see it" thing is a bit of a waste of time. IT IS EVERYWHERE, IN EVERYTHING! Titles you don't see it in, are just movies that have a lot of brightly lit scenes (for example, you're hard pressed to find it in your usual Pixar titles: Ice Age, Nemo, etc. Why? BRIGHT SCENES). As I'm sure you can tell, I am pretty definitive about feeling like I have a handle on this issue...EXCEPT, as someone else has pointed out, how in the Hell could a set like this make it to market in the first place!? And if the issue is inherent to the ALiS panel, aren't there a lot of other sets that use it, including the mega-buck$ Fujitsu's!? And this set has been reviewed...how did it make it passed the reviewers!?

Man, I know this is going to sound like I am really reaching...and please keep in mind that I am an Audiophile and IT guy and whenever we can't explain things, power is always the first thing we blame...lol...but is it possible that the sets with "flicker" have issues with a power supply, that maybe has trouble holding blacks as white light is introduced to the picture?? Nah...I could almost buy that if it didn't seem so "uniform" as it does it (don't mind me as I supply both point and counterpoint in this argument...lol). I tell ya, I'm at a loss. Well, I'm going to keep the set for 30 days, while I start shopping a price for a Pioneer. So of course I'll stay tuned and spearhead any efforts to resolve this thing. I do plan to call Hitachi and give 'em hell, but I'm sure I'll just be shouting at some poor 19 year-old kid who doesn't have any idea what I'm talking about. Stay tuned for the fun.

CD

I am firmly convinced this is inherent to the ALiS panel and that, at the very least,

At the very least, yes, as I have stated numerous times, my Hitachi 42edt41 enhanced definition NON-ALIS panel has/had the same issue.

Unfortunately all I had was a dvd to play and that was Phantom of the Opera.
I went to a few dark scenes and saw no shift in contrast. There was however, during the flashback, they cut to a black and white scene and that fluctated pretty annoyingly on the contrast but I cannot guarantee that, that was the tv or the dvd because the director might have intended for something like that as a style.
FWIW, I have the HD DVD version of POTO and it does the exact same "flickering" during the b&w flashback (flashforward, actually) scenes. This is just the style chosen by the director to give it an "old-time feel". Now if the ENTIRE screen flickers including the top & bottom black bars, then that would indicate the true "flickering issue" that's being reported by unhappy Hitachi owners.

BTW, my 42HDT52A/V0102.0001/874 hours has the flickering issue while playing HD DVDs with dark scenes. I have not noticed it while watching my Comcast HD digital cable. Both are hooked up via HDMI with Blue Jeans Cables.

I will try to see if my standard DVD player (Yamaha DVD-CX1) connected via component will also create the same flicker. I can also try the HD DVD player (Tosh HD-XA1) via component to see if that helps, though another poster reported this did not make any difference.

...but not tonight - it's already late and I have a long day tomorrow... :(

Wow Delphi, that's pretty hot isn't it? This set has already got some Black Level issues; aren't you completely washed out at Contrast 77% and Brightness 61%? Is that too high a price to pay to get rid of this "defect"?

Guys, you'll see my new post, which is also posted in the Official Hitachi thread, but I'm not feeling good about all things Hitachi these days.

CD

My background, from a serious hobbyist point of view, is still photography and not video, so when I view the picture quality what I am looking for is for the picture to "pop" from having a sufficient level of contrast, which I'm sure is what most of us are looking for too. To that end, as with photography, I am willing to give up some highlight and shadow detail in a situation where I can not dodge and burn my image to near perfection, as I, of course :) , can not do with the image I get on my plasma display.

While this tv does not have as deep a black as say the Panasonic, the blacks do well with these settings so long as the black enhancement setting is set to "low." With it set to off it certainly becomes washed out; the blacks, that is.

Highlight detail is actually not nearly as affected as what I expected and that goes for even at 100% :eek: (yep, you read that right). In fact, for the relatively little detail that gets blown or crushed away it is well worth it for the overall "pop" the picture gains to use higher contrast settings.

I have no burn in issues, by the way. :D

Watched War of the Worlds again and in most of the night scenes the blacks, and overall contrast, looked really good and I again didn't notice the contrast and brightness flickering.

Unrelated notes:

Isn't it funny how with an HDTV display you can now see those dust specks on the the DVDs as if you were in the theatre again. :)

I also noticed that the first fighter flying into the battle was an F-22; that's for the aviation and movie geeks.

This movie should look great in HD!

I am having the flicker as well. I have all my settings dialed down for the break in period. When I adjust the settings to some of the ones here and the one on CNET, the flicker is drastically reduced. I can only see it once in a great while. Problem is, the set is very bright. I think I am so use to the "break in" settings, when I change them, its like my eyes are burning. Also, I do see what everyone is saying about the blacks, when I adjust the settings to say the CNET settings, the blacks are greatly lightened.

FWIW, the one thing I did noticed after I installed my firmware upgrade was that it completely disables the Black Enhancement feature. However this does result in lightening of black levels and there is no longer any adjustment to get deep rich blacks which you could when this feature was active. But this is something I can live with, the flicker problem which this upgrade resolved, I could not. So this has been a small tradeoff for me but I can say without any hesitation that it still has one of the most beautiful pictures of any plasma tv out there especially with HD. So I am now satisfied overall with the purchase of my Hitachi but feel for those who are not because I was also one of you and hope with some hard work from Hitachi that you can achieve the same result that I eventually did and finally enjoy your sets.

I am having the flicker as well. I have all my settings dialed down for the break in period. When I adjust the settings to some of the ones here and the one on CNET, the flicker is drastically reduced. I can only see it once in a great while. Problem is, the set is very bright. I think I am so use to the "break in" settings, when I change them, its like my eyes are burning. Also, I do see what everyone is saying about the blacks, when I adjust the settings to say the CNET settings, the blacks are greatly lightened.

I had my settings dialed down for around the first 50 hours or so then said the heck with it and went into my current contrastier and brighter settings with black enhancement activated at the low setting. My eyes adjusted rather quickly to the more vivid image, which I prefer. I'm not seeing the flicker but I'm also not really looking for it anymore.

FWIW, the one thing I did noticed after I installed my firmware upgrade was that it completely disables the Black Enhancement feature. However this does result in lightening of black levels and there is no longer any adjustment to get deep rich blacks which you could when this feature was active. But this is something I can live with, the flicker problem which this upgrade resolved, I could not. So this has been a small tradeoff for me but I can say without any hesitation that it still has one of the most beautiful pictures of any plasma tv out there especially with HD. So I am now satisfied overall with the purchase of my Hitachi but feel for those who are not because I was also one of you and hope with some hard work from Hitachi that you can achieve the same result that I eventually did and finally enjoy your sets.

We need more info. Are you saying that you installed an upgrade firmware and that completely solved your flickering? Which set? What upgrade?

FWIW, the one thing I did noticed after I installed my firmware upgrade was that it completely disables the Black Enhancement feature. .

Why not just completey defeat the auto contrast setting (contrast mode) instead? Geesh.

I don't think the flicker issue is related to ALiS technology. There are reports that flicker is also seen on 55" models, which are not ALiS panels.

Also, I don't think the flicker is limited to dark scenes, I think it's just more noticeable.

I was watching a movie (480i sat) and three or four times, the whole panel shifted brightness during bright scenes. When I saw this my heart sank. I even tried the other modes (day,night.) The flicker was apparent in both, but my settings are all very close to each other during break in. The funny thing is though, I haven't noticed any flicker in any other content, even though I've watched stuff with dark scenes.

We need more info. Are you saying that you installed an upgrade firmware and that completely solved your flickering? Which set? What upgrade?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8424662&&#post8424662

Well as I stated in the other thread, this is either:

1.) A feature.....some feature huh? :rolleyes:
2.) A glitch in the Contrast Settings. Specifically the Dynamic Vs Normal Contrast.
Its still possible the Dynamic Contrast is supposed to do this, while the normal isn't and that somehow the Dynamic Contrast is always being used no matter which one you select.

I know I'm grasping at straws here.

Why not just completey defeat the auto contrast setting (contrast mode) instead? Geesh.

Maybe you should ask Hitachi or one of their engineers :confused:

the Dynamic Contrast is supposed to do this, while the normal isn't and that somehow the Dynamic Contrast is always being used no matter which one you select.



This is my opinion - 100%. I think to them "normal" means that it adjusts the contrast less than using the dynamic mode, but does not turn it off.

I will certainly tell Hitachi they should release a firmware patch to completely defeat the auto contrast.

Does anybody have any contact info for them? (Other than the 800 #s on the website.)

This is my opinion - 100%. I think to them "normal" means that it adjusts the contrast less than using the dynamic mode, but does not turn it off.

I will certainly tell Hitachi they should release a firmware patch to completely defeat the auto contrast.

Does anybody have any contact info for them? (Other than the 800 #s on the website.)
Well fellas, you know what they say: when in doubt, try actually reading the manual...lol. Here are a couple of interesting tidbits I picked up: I have NEVER thought to do any viewing or testing with the Contrast Mode set to Dynamic, because it looked so garish, but I suppose, if it helped with this issue at all, you might be able to compensate for it. The operating manual does say this: Set the Dynamic for darker images, more in the level of Black, set to Normal for a balanced White to Black level. BALANCED? That sounds like what I've contended all along the set is doing; shifting Black levels as it tries to compensate...or balance...out White levels. I'm getting ready to head to Dallas for a few days, and wife is just going to be running break-in DVD for me, but can anybody do a "torture test" on this, at night, dark room, etc. and report? I do find this interesting: Plasmas do some things great, but what's supposed to be their biggest shortcoming? It's Black levels, isn't it? So what in the world is Hitachi thinking by coming up with a mode that's, you know, if you want things to be "more in the level of Black"? Who doesn't want things to be more in the level of Black!? FWIW, I also found this in the manual; all along I think we've been wondering silently, if this is really a "feature"...if it was really meant to do this by design...then where is it listed or mentioned. Well, in the guide, under Features and Specifications, in the Features subsection, there is something listed as Picture Enhancement (that's it, no elaboration on how it is achieved or what in the picture is enhanced...god bless the Japanese). Digging a little further, here is a blurb from the 42HDS69 literature, describing the PictureMaster HD III video processor: "ensures a sharp, smooth and seamless image every time by analyzing and optimizing each frame"...and "an ultra-fast computer that predicts the motion of on-screen images for improved picture performance". I don't know about you guys, but this is starting to sound like our culprit. Adjusting each frame for "optimal performance" or whatever, is exactly what the set is doing as it searches for that right Black level as the scene introduces more and less White levels. I think this processor, or Picture Enhancement, especially when combined with the set not in Dynamic mode (you know, to get more in the level of Black) is where we need to start looking. And we need to ask Hitachi: what is Picture Enhancement? What exactly is getting enhanced? How does the PM HD III optimize each image, as it "predicts the motion of on-screen images"? Damn, this has become more work than my job!!

CD

Well fellas, you know what they say: when in doubt, try actually reading the manual...lol. Here are a couple of interesting tidbits I picked up: I have NEVER thought to do any viewing or testing with the Contrast Mode set to Dynamic, because it looked so garish, but I suppose, if it helped with this issue at all, you might be able to compensate for it. The operating manual does say this: Set the Dynamic for darker images, more in the level of Black, set to Normal for a balanced White to Black level. BALANCED? That sounds like what I've contended all along the set is doing; shifting Black levels as it tries to compensate...or balance...out White levels.


RTFM? Why would I want to do that? Hahaha.

Interestingly, I was having some of the same thoughts this morning. I realized that I had never put it in dynamic mode, and honestly didn't 100% know what it did.

I will try the dynamic mode test tonight and report back.

I stopped into a Boscov's during a road trip and they had the Hitachi 55HDT79. I was looking hard for the screen flicker you all have been talking about, but I was unable to see it on this model. I'm waiting for a HDX99 to play with for longer periods of time. Since I was on a road trip I couldn't just stand there and watch it for hours...well yes I could (It was beautiful). I didn't expect to stop there or see that tv so I didn't bring any of those "dark" DVDs with me.

I'll be following this closely as I want one of these TVs, but if its as bad as people say I might just have to go back to wanting an SXRD...blah.. ;)

I'll give it a shot tonight as well.

my software is the 115 version which i dont see any flicker at all

my software is the 115 version which i dont see any flicker at all

That is what my version is and I see it.

my software is the 115 version which i dont see any flicker at all

What are your settings and sources (eg HD cable, d*, DVD, etc.)

How does one check the software version?

What are your settings and sources (eg HD cable, d*, DVD, etc.)

How does one check the software version?

GO to the Setup menu then I think its Upgrade or Maintenance.

Ok fellas. I actually got through and had a nice chat with the Engineer working on this issue at the service center in San Diego. He told me that he is commited to figuring out this problem and he asked me to get some information from everyone of my customers that has issues. Well as of now, all of you are my customers :-) as far as Hitachi knows. He said thier main problem is that they are having trouble with repeatability. So we have a voice now with Hitachi. Here is the info I need from anyone who wants to get this problem solved. Please email me (jbm@jbmaudio.com) the info with in the next couple of days so I can get it out to him ASAP. In the subject please put Hitachi Flicker so I can filter all of your messages into one folder. This is the info that Hitachi needs.

Model #
Serial #
S/W Version (if you know how to find that)
Sources that can be repeated to show this issue. DVD chapters, TV shows, anything that you are able to show this issue. Make sure to include if the shows are HD or SD. This is needed so they can verify the problem we are talking about.

^ Jason, you rock. I'll email my info by Wed 9/20...

I emailed you my information.

I called Hitachi as well. They aren't not aware of an issue like this. :rolleyes:

She gave me 3 authorized repair centers close to me. I'll probably call them as well to see if they have experienced anything like this. Keep us posted Jason.

Just got off the "horn" with a nice lady at Hitachi Service Center. She said they ARE aware of the problem, but her only suggestions were to mess with Black Enhancement, Dynamic Modes, and Contrast. I specifically asked her what her "higher-ups" or technicians were telling the phone reps to say or how to resolve and she repeated the Video Settings mantra. I didn't push too hard because she really didn't have anything else other than local repair info. and I have had a position like her's before and those people have very little info/power/control. I did ask her nicely to put on my file that I thought it was a weak resolution for people that just dropped many thousands of dollars on a TV to tell us to just play with the settings. If Hitachi is like any other company they eventually look into call trends and customer comments about their product...especially one with many complaints.

Anyway, hopefully the more complaints, the more quickly they try and resolve as this could really hurt Hitachi. Other than this major flaw, I do like the plasma. Hopefully a software fix can work. Also, I had the latest software v0110.0001 for the HDT79.

Jason - Great work again !!! Just emailed you my info.

If they found a fix I would buy a Hitachi-I will buy in the next month or so. If they dont-I will buy a Panasonic.

Anyway, hopefully the more complaints, the more quickly they try and resolve as this could really hurt Hitachi. Other than this major flaw, I do like the plasma. Hopefully a software fix can work. the HDT79.



I agree. More people need to complain about this issue. I would hope the software route is the option. Last thing I want is some guy poking around inside my TV when they aren't sure what is wrong.

And as you said, this TV is perfect otherwise.

I don't think the flicker issue is related to ALiS technology. There are reports that flicker is also seen on 55" models, which are not ALiS panels.

Also, I don't think the flicker is limited to dark scenes, I think it's just more noticeable.

I was watching a movie (480i sat) and three or four times, the whole panel shifted brightness during bright scenes. When I saw this my heart sank. I even tried the other modes (day,night.) The flicker was apparent in both, but my settings are all very close to each other during break in. The funny thing is though, I haven't noticed any flicker in any other content, even though I've watched stuff with dark scenes.


I notice this too, I think we really see it bad on dark scenes, but I too notice it in light scenes. I saw this watching NFL games lately....

I agree. More people need to complain about this issue. I would hope the software route is the option. Last thing I want is some guy poking around inside my TV when they aren't sure what is wrong.

And as you said, this TV is perfect otherwise.

I feel the exact same. :eek:

I have NEVER thought to do any viewing or testing with the Contrast Mode set to Dynamic, because it looked so garish, but I suppose, if it helped with this issue at all, you might be able to compensate for it. The operating manual does say this: Set the Dynamic for darker images, more in the level of Black,

Bad news - doesn't help anything. I started with the cnet settings (as they have largely helped my flicker) and changed it dynamic contrast mode. This simply made the picture darker, almost like enabling black enhancement. Because the picture is darker, it brings out the flicker.

I spent an hour playing with the settings - contrast, brightness, black enhancement, contrast mode. My problem with the cnet settings is that the black is not deep enough and the picture looks washed out. I was trying to find some combo of settings that gave a satisfactory black level without the flicker. I evem tried pushing the black enhancement up to medium, and then pushing up the contrast and brightness into the 70s, but I still had flicker.

I did learn that brightness seems to be the real key. With all other cnet settings in place, I played with contrast. I can hardly see a difference in the picture when I move the contrast between 40 and 60. But, with all cnet settings in place, if you start dialing down the brightness setting the black returns - as does the flicker. I was able to move the brightness down to 54 without bringing back the flicker. So I got some black back.

All of this playing was done in a completely black room with a 55hds69. I watched The Incredibles, Chapter 6 on an Oppo 971H over DVI at 720p.

I have s/w V00100.0001

These are the "cnet settings"
Picture Mode: Night
Color Temperature: Standard
Contrast: 50
Brightness: 58
Color: 32
Tint: 4 clicks left of center
Sharpness: 0
Black Enhance: Off
Auto Movie Mode: On

For those that are not sure of what the "flicker" or "Contrast Adjustment" is, here is what I was able to capture with my Digital Camera. Don't hate, it doesn't do video great, but you can definately see where the contrast adjustment happens.

Flicker 640 size .mov (http://www.metalsaber.com/video/DSCN0332.MOV) - 7megs

It should be fairly easy to tell.

This was done on Tears of the Sun, which to me is the worse contrast adjustment I'm seen so far. If someone has better video recording, they could post a better example.

Model #
Serial #
S/W Version (if you know how to find that)
Sources that can be repeated to show this issue. DVD chapters, TV shows, anything that you are able to show this issue. Make sure to include if the shows are HD or SD. This is needed so they can verify the problem we are talking about.

Thanks Jason!! I just emailed you. Man it's hard to read the serial # when the thing is still mounted on the wall. I was barely able to peer back there with a flashlight and read it.

Just got off the "horn" with a nice lady at Hitachi Service Center. She said they ARE aware of the problem.

What # did you call? I'm calling them tomorrow.

Ok fellas. I actually got through and had a nice chat with the Engineer working on this issue at the service center in San Diego. He told me that he is commited to figuring out this problem and he asked me to get some information from everyone of my customers that has issues. Well as of now, all of you are my customers :-) as far as Hitachi knows. He said thier main problem is that they are having trouble with repeatability. .

Good job Jason but my suggestion would be for them to tweak the auto contrast/brightness at the least and at the most, and best, to have an option to turn it off.

Jason - just emailed my info to you...thanks again!

Bad news - doesn't help anything. I started with the cnet settings (as they have largely helped my flicker) and changed it dynamic contrast mode. This simply made the picture darker, almost like enabling black enhancement. Because the picture is darker, it brings out the flicker.

I spent an hour playing with the settings - contrast, brightness, black enhancement, contrast mode. My problem with the cnet settings is that the black is not deep enough and the picture looks washed out. I was trying to find some combo of settings that gave a satisfactory black level without the flicker. I evem tried pushing the black enhancement up to medium, and then pushing up the contrast and brightness into the 70s, but I still had flicker.

I did learn that brightness seems to be the real key. With all other cnet settings in place, I played with contrast. I can hardly see a difference in the picture when I move the contrast between 40 and 60. But, with all cnet settings in place, if you start dialing down the brightness setting the black returns - as does the flicker. I was able to move the brightness down to 54 without bringing back the flicker. So I got some black back.

All of this playing was done in a completely black room with a 55hds69. I watched The Incredibles, Chapter 6 on an Oppo 971H over DVI at 720p.Not to be defeatist, but adjusting the problem away for one particular scene, such as the one in The Incredibles, doesn't necessarily mean the issue's been solved. I've been able to tweak the settings on my TV to stop the black level fluctuations in Chapter 6 as well, and still have the behavior reappear elsewhere. The dark scenes in the Incredibles were just one example of the type of scene where I've noticed the issue on my TV. I don't think you can use one scene as a gauge for whether it's been eliminated altogether though.

Switching the Contrast Mode from Normal to Dynamic doesn't eliminate the floating blacks either. That was one of the first things I tried. In addition to the Video menu options, I've also tried tweaking things like the power saving modes and pixel shifter, and those have no effect on the issue either. Raising Brightness and/or Contrast may hide the issue by lifting more of the picture information out of the range of darkness where the black level fluctuations are most noticeable. But even those adjustments don't really "cure" it (as others have pointed out).

As CD's mentioned, the black levels will change if you simply invoke or exit the TV's user menus on a black screen, which seems to indicate that the behavior is embedded more deeply in the electronics than just a simple video processing effect. The display seems to react to any change in brightness on the screen, and not just changes in the video content itself.

If Hitachi can fix the issue, that'd be great. I rarely notice it in normal viewing myself though (as long there's ample background illumination in the viewing area), so if I return the TV, it would probably be for other reasons, such as the higher level of blacks and dithering in general compared to the CRTs I'm used to. This being my first plasma, I wasn't quite sure what to expect from the technology in these areas. And it seems as if a little more research may be in order before I decide what to do re a new display. Plasma does seem easier on my eyes than LCD or my Sony CRT though.

And that should be 5 posts.
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/news-electronics-computers/hitachi-42hds69-1080i-1024x1080-plasma-hdtv-6-06/overview/0606_hitachi-42hds69-1080i-1024x1080-plasma-hdtv_ov.htmTks for the link jr.

There are reports that flicker is also seen on 55" models, which are not ALiS panels.....

Is it a confirmed fact that the 55" does not use ALiS?

Is it a confirmed fact that the 55" does not use ALiS?


My user manual talks about it on the features page in the back.

I have a 55HDS69

Is it a confirmed fact that the 55" does not use ALiS?
That maybe However I can report Annoying flicker on this model 55hdt79.. The Panel is apparently not repsonsible for flicker...called Hitachi to report this issue..I will call again as numbers of callers will force the issue..hopefully..and thanks to jason for his efforts....Hey Hitachi I am still within my 30 days..Think about it..If everyone who within 30 day returns...I don't think Hitachi would think this is good..don't get me wrong I love this set..however the flicker is a real and degrading issue to this set!

Tom D.

My user manual talks about it on the features page in the back.

I have a 55HDS69

Isn't the manual for both the 42" and 55"? But I do see that ALiS is not specifically called out only on the 42". I've looked at the brocheures and spec sheets for all the panels (HDS/T/X, even 42HDF39 and 50HDA39.) Only the 42" pages called out ALiS. ALiS is not called out on any 50" spec sheet.

Has anyone seen the service manual for the 55"? We might be able to tell if the 55" is ALiS from that. I saw the 42" service manual and it shows two sets of horizontal drivers. I'm guessing that these two sets of drivers do the alternate lighting, and I'm also guessing that a non-ALiS panel would only have one horizontal driver.

What # did you call? I'm calling them tomorrow.

It was the 800 number in the back of my owners manual for the technical service or something like that. It indicates you should write to them with any customer service issues, but screw that, so I called the 800 number and she was well aware of what I was talking about. The word must be going around at Hitachi and I would make a large bet that someone at Hitachi is reviewing these posts.

Also, on the right side of your plasma you should be able to get the Serial #, so if yours is on the wall, that is a blessing.

As CD's mentioned, the black levels will change if you simply invoke or exit the TV's user menus on a black screen, which seems to indicate that the behavior is embedded more deeply in the electronics than just a simple video processing effect.
I'm beginning to agree ADU. I think our first hope was that this "issue" was a defect, that cold be resolved by returning the offending set or a firmware upgrade. But the more I come to realize what the set is actually doing, and seeing others report the same, the more I feel that it is supposed to be doing this...by Hitachi design...like you said, deep within the architecture of the set. IMO, if that is the case, it is unlikely that Hitachi will "fix" it; I mean, they'd be undoing what they intentionally set out to accomplish.

Someone talked about a board swap; that's a big change! So who's to say, if the swap out the processor board, whether the good things we like about the set to begin with, will even remian intact?

I think we Hitachi owners are trying for nirvana; keep everything we like about the set, high resolution, great PQ, etc., but get rid of what we don't like, i.e. this Contrast Adjustment.

Bottom line, I just don't think it'll happen.

CD

I think we Hitachi owners are trying for nirvana; keep everything we like about the set, high resolution, great PQ, etc., but get rid of what we don't like, i.e. this Contrast Adjustment.

Bottom line, I just don't think it'll happen.

CD
CD, I personally think that some shortcomings can be accepted, such as "not the blackest blacks" or "greens don't look 100% true". Issues like this are usually a function of the proprietary video processor (such as Hitachi's Hitachi PictureMaster™ HD III) used by each manufacturer. That's why we spend so much time researching the different brands trying to get as close to nirvana as possible.

However, the sometimes "discoteqhe-like" flickering is truly unacceptable - it takes away from the pleasure of watching a movie on this set. If I was aware of this issue, I would have made damn sure that before I bought my HDT from VO that I would be given a full cash refund if I had to return it due to flickering.

I never noticed flickering on any other plasmas I was considering - Toshiba, Samsung, Panasonic, Phillips/Magnavox, etc. I would have to play a dark-scened DVD on them to see if they suffered the same woes.

I truly hope that Hitachi gets this issue resolved - and soon.

Bottom line, I just don't think it'll happen.If it is by design (which seems at least a possibility) then FWIW I'd think there'd be a somewhat better chance of it being fixable than if it was a defect or inherent to the technology. I wouldn't bet the cost of a 42" - 55" display on it though. And any speculation re the ease/difficulty or likelihood of it being corrected would be total folly on my part, and not worth the parchment it was written on given what little I know about plasma technology.

Well CD, I see what you are saying, but I hope you are wrong, otherwise I could see someone trying to do a class action for this. It doesn't state anywhere in the manual that you might experience this or that the technology does this...at least that I could find in my hdt79 manual. Yeah, it talks about contrast and picture adjustments, but doesn't go into any details. I too, think I understand what they are TRYING to do, but the execution is awful. I would think it is an algorithm in the processor that could be re-programmed, but I'm no expert in that area.

Another thing, has anyone confirmed whether or not this "flicker" happens in the Director Series (HDX models)? How about the Fujitsu models? I've heard nothing but great things about those models and at least the HDX is based on the same processor. My understanding is the Fujitsu uses similar architecture as the Hitachi, but I've read nothing but kudos on those sets.

Damn, I think I should have just bought an LCD. My Sony XBR 40' LCD has been nothing but a few adjustments and all set. The HDT is giving me an ulcer. :)

Another thing, has anyone confirmed whether or not this "flicker" happens in the Director Series (HDX models)?

My 42HDX99 shows the same flicker issue.

This sounds to me more and more like it is an intended design feature.

If not, they it should be limited to a specific model right?

If not, they it should be limited to a specific model right?
Possibly an entire series of models, such as the HDT52/HDX62 era and the more recent HDS69/HDT79/HDX99 models.

Would it be worth starting a poll to see how many of which model we AVS'ers know to have this issue? Maybe Hitachi might take note if there are a lot of flawed units reported...

Possibly an entire series of models, such as the HDT52/HDX62 era and the more recent HDS69/HDT79/HDX99 models.

Would it be worth starting a poll to see how many of which model we AVS'ers know to have this issue? Maybe Hitachi might take note if there are a lot of flawed units reported...

Well buy my point was when you see it through different series as you stated, then it become more of likely a feature rather than a flaw.

CD, I personally think that some shortcomings can be accepted, such as "not the blackest blacks" or "greens don't look 100% true". Issues like this are usually a function of the proprietary video processor (such as Hitachi's Hitachi PictureMaster™ HD III) used by each manufacturer. That's why we spend so much time researching the different brands trying to get as close to nirvana as possible.

However, the sometimes "discoteqhe-like" flickering is truly unacceptable - it takes away from the pleasure of watching a movie on this set. If I was aware of this issue, I would have made damn sure that before I bought my HDT from VO that I would be given a full cash refund if I had to return it due to flickering.

I never noticed flickering on any other plasmas I was considering - Toshiba, Samsung, Panasonic, Phillips/Magnavox, etc. I would have to play a dark-scened DVD on them to see if they suffered the same woes.

I truly hope that Hitachi gets this issue resolved - and soon.
I knew I was going to take a hit on this...I wasn't trying to say we're asking for too much. Of course I agree this issue is unacceptable. But what I'm realistically starting to think is this: we all agree this set has got a great PQ, and it's one of the very few sets that's 1080i v. 720p; now it's starting to become one of the least expensive sets on the market. Can we really expect to have gotten it all? I mean, if that were the case, who in their right mind wouldn't buy the Hitachi. And yet most people, overwhelmingly, are pro Panny, Pio...hell, even Sammy gets more pub I bet than Hitachi. I'm just wondering if this is the trade off; why Hitachi has, to this point, not been very highly thought of.

CD

I knew I was going to take a hit on this...I wasn't trying to say we're asking for too much. Of course I agree this issue is unacceptable. But what I'm realistically starting to think is this: we all agree this set has got a great PQ, and it's one of the very few sets that's 1080i v. 720p; now it's starting to become one of the least expensive sets on the market. Can we really expect to have gotten it all? I mean, if that were the case, who in their right mind wouldn't buy the Hitachi. And yet most people, overwhelmingly, are pro Panny, Pio...hell, even Sammy gets more pub I bet than Hitachi. I'm just wondering if this is the trade off; why Hitachi has, to this point, not been very highly thought of.

CD

Well, I think for the most part the others stand out because they advertise. I think I MAYBE have seen one Hitachi commercial, but Panny, Pio, Samsung are all over the place, so people will naturally migrate to those brands. To break that "tri-opoly" Hitachi would have to do something...PQ, lower price, or something else. I don't think we are asking too much, especially since similar models/prices of those other manufacturer's don't have this flaw/feature. Heck, I was in a local high end store and they decided to get rid of Samsung and go with Hitachi, so there must be something to the Hitachi. Plus, their relationship with Fujitsu, which is supposedly one of the best pictures out there...besides Pio Elite. Again, I don't think we are expecting too much.

Anyway, I guess I am just baffled as to how these Hitachi sets were released from R&D IF this was an intended feature. I can't believe that someone would actually think that the "flicker" we are seeing on the whole screen would be anywhere near enjoyable to view. Especially, since most of the plus of plasma's compared to LCD is that you get better blacks and are great for movies. Last time I checked, most people watch a movie in the dark and this "feature" sticks out like a sore thumb.

Hitachi, if you are viewing, please come up with a firmware upgrade to turn off this feature if it is intended, otherwise, find a fix soon.

Hitachi, if you are viewing, please come up with a firmware upgrade to turn off this feature if it is intended, otherwise, find a fix soon.

If any of you call Hitachi, ask for the email of the person you are talking to and send them a link to this thread. Also, ask the person for the email address of the highest ranking Hitachi employee that they will give you (VP of customer service, etc.) and send him a link also.

I knew I was going to take a hit on this...I wasn't trying to say we're asking for too much. Of course I agree this issue is unacceptable. But what I'm realistically starting to think is this: we all agree this set has got a great PQ, and it's one of the very few sets that's 1080i v. 720p; now it's starting to become one of the least expensive sets on the market. Can we really expect to have gotten it all? I mean, if that were the case, who in their right mind wouldn't buy the Hitachi. And yet most people, overwhelmingly, are pro Panny, Pio...hell, even Sammy gets more pub I bet than Hitachi. I'm just wondering if this is the trade off; why Hitachi has, to this point, not been very highly thought of.

CD

Hey CD, dont lie down on this issue. We all paid serious coin for these things and dont believe its right. :eek:

Someone should take this to the next level and build a website devoted to this. That way, when people research these TVs, they'll see this in the search criteria.

I don't think CD or myself are going to lay down on this issue. I have direct contact with the Engineer working on the problem. Keep emailing me your info and I will forward it to him....and keep you posted on what I find out

Glad to hear. I'm not going to be satisfied until this issue is resolved. As stated, I paid good money for this....hard earned money mind you. I want this issue taken seriously by them.

I don't think CD or myself are going to lay down on this issue. I have direct contact with the Engineer working on the problem. Keep emailing me your info and I will forward it to him....and keep you posted on what I find out

Right on man. :cool:

Jason I will provide info on my 42HDS69 as soon as I can. I haven't noticed any flickering recently at my higher contrast settings, though that could be due to my not having enough time to thoroughly test it with different sources. I certainly noticed it previously.

Thing is, it bothers me even when I don't notice it because it often ruins the picture quality based on particular scenes. White bright scenes that should be white and bright, and stay that way, all of a sudden become quite flat in contrast.

It's a really stupid design Hitachi!

For those that are not getting help from Hitachi and are within their 30 day return period I would recommend returning the TV and letting Hitachi know. Such service is unacceptable for such an expensive purchase!

I don't think CD or myself are going to lay down on this issue. I have direct contact with the Engineer working on the problem. Keep emailing me your info and I will forward it to him....and keep you posted on what I find out
No, I don't intend to lay down (not much to report right now in the way of hell-raising because I'm away on business, but as soon as I get back...). I just have to say...and maybe I'm the first in this thread to do so...that it is much more disheartening since I've gotten my second set; it just sort of wipes away any hope, in my mind, that this is a "defect"...I mean, what would be the odds (2 different sets, manufactured at 2 different times, with 2 different versions of firmware...gotten from 2 different CCs)?

So, I'm going to call CC, going to call Hitachi, going to provide info to Jason...of course closely monitor the board and see what others have done. I'm just waiting for the first one to come forward and say "I FIXED IT"!! To this point I see owners who say either they never had it (to which, I apologize for saying, but I simply assume they don't really know what to look for) or owners who have said they have it and NOTHING has fixed it yet. I am not even optimistic about talk of replacing a processor board, as in my opinion, its such a big change you might have to trade other points about the set that we like (PQ possibly) in order to lose the "flicker" (and imagine trying to prove that to Hitachi..."it doesn't look as good as before")

No, I'll fight the good fight. I have just accepted, for myself, that you can't make a square peg fit in a round hole. So to me, that means if I can't make this set look the way I want, I'll be buying a new peg (likely Pioneer).

Oh BTW, FWIW, I just browsed the thread about 42HDS69 v. Panny 60u, and when the dreaded "flicker" issue was mentioned in regards to the Hitachi, someone said they used to have the same thing happen on a Maxent set they tried. That's the first time I've ever heard it mentioned in regard to another brand.

CD

I just noticed it on my old Daewoo last night while watching Lost Season 2.

I knew I was going to take a hit on this...I wasn't trying to say we're asking for too much. Of course I agree this issue is unacceptable.
CD
CD, I hope I didn't come across too strongly in my initial reply. I had to assume you felt like I did, somewhere on the same page. And your other points in your reply were right on the money - great PQ, great price, etc. If the flicker issue can be fixed, I have no doubt that the Hitachis are one of the best plasma deals ever...and will be for the near future.

I'm recommending 95% the Hitachi brand to a brother who will likely buy a 55" model, and will up that recommendation to 100%+ when the flicker issue is resolved.

C'mon, Hitachi - you have future sales riding on this!

White bright scenes that should be white and bright, and stay that way, all of a sudden become quite flat in contrast.FWIW, that sounds more like the contrast clamping (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8415324&&#post8415324), which is probably a seperate issue from the floating blacks.

I should run some more tests to see if the clamping is different in the Day and Night modes.

Hello all:

I have been reading the Hitachi flicker threads, and thought I would contribute.

I have the 55HDT79 at home and it has the flicker. I have done a fair bit of experimentation, and have been in contact with Hitachi Canada on the issue. They are aware of it.

- I see the flicker all the time, from various sources, and with a wide range of video settings. I have tried all the settings posted in this thread, and still see it. My wife sees it too. It is not subtle.

- To demonstrate flicker I use "The Matrix", in particular, the scene where Morpheus offers the blue and red pills to Neo. That scene, with the 2 of them in that dark room, flickers terribly for me. More than on the video posted by Metalsaber.

- I have tried various sources into the 55HDT79, including a Pioneer DV-490V up converting DVD player via HDMI (at various resolutions); a Sony DVD in progressive mode via component video; and a laptop via DVI -> HDMI cable (at various resolutions), and a Motorola DCT6416 set top box via HDMI. In all cases the flicker is present.

- I have tried different cables (HDMI and component) from different manufacturers (Monster, Energy, for example). The flicker is still present.

- I received a ROM upgrade from Hitachi Canada and installed it. My firmware went from V0109.0001 to V0110.0001. The flicker is still present.

- I tested a second 55HDT79 at my local retailer (Visons NW in Calgary AB) where I purchased my set. I played the blue pill/red pill scene from "The Matrix" on their unit and got the assistant manager watch. To be fair, I stayed silent while he watched this scene. He saw the flicker right away, and agrees that the TV should not be doing this. He was also concerned, because he says they sell a lot of those units.

- Together, the assistant manager and I upgraded the ROM on the demo 55HDT79 in the shop. The flicker was still present.

- I decided to test the 55HDX99 Director Series unit, as a possible replacement/upgrade to solve the flicker problem. I went to a second retail outlet (Visions NE in Calgary AB) where they had just installed a brand new, just received, 55HDX99 Director Series unit. I can confirm that the 55HDX99 also has the flicker issue.

- I played the blue pill/red pill scene for a different salesperson, and stayed silent again. This salesperson also immediately saw the flicker. He too expressed concern, because they sell a lot of these. He also stated, without being prompted by me, that there is something wrong with these sets, and that they should definitely not be doing this.

- Hitachi Canada wants to try "one more thing" but I have not heard from them in several days. I will try to contact them one more time, but it is extremely likely that I will be asking for a full refund on this set, and putting that towards a Pioneer of Panasonic unit.

Sincerely

rmitch

Hello all:

I have been reading the Hitachi flicker threads, and thought I would contribute.

I have the 55HDT79 at home and it has the flicker. I have done a fair bit of experimentation, and have been in contact with Hitachi Canada on the issue. They are aware of it.

- I see the flicker all the time, from various sources, and with a wide range of video settings. I have tried all the settings posted in this thread, and still see it. My wife sees it too. It is not subtle.

- To demonstrate flicker I use "The Matrix", in particular, the scene where Morpheus offers the blue and red pills to Neo. That scene, with the 2 of them in that dark room, flickers terribly for me. More than on the video posted by Metalsaber.

- I have tried various sources into the 55HDT79, including a Pioneer DV-490V up converting DVD player via HDMI (at various resolutions); a Sony DVD in progressive mode via component video; and a laptop via DVI -> HDMI cable (at various resolutions), and a Motorola DCT6416 set top box via HDMI. In all cases the flicker is present.

- I have tried different cables (HDMI and component) from different manufacturers (Monster, Energy, for example). The flicker is still present.

- I received a ROM upgrade from Hitachi Canada and installed it. My firmware went from V0109.0001 to V0110.0001. The flicker is still present.

- I tested a second 55HDT79 at my local retailer (Visons NW in Calgary AB) where I purchased my set. I played the blue pill/red pill scene from "The Matrix" on their unit and got the assistant manager watch. To be fair, I stayed silent while he watched this scene. He saw the flicker right away, and agrees that the TV should not be doing this. He was also concerned, because he says they sell a lot of those units.

- Together, the assistant manager and I upgraded the ROM on the demo 55HDT79 in the shop. The flicker was still present.

- I decided to test the 55HDX99 Director Series unit, as a possible replacement/upgrade to solve the flicker problem. I went to a second retail outlet (Visions NE in Calgary AB) where they had just installed a brand new, just received, 55HDX99 Director Series unit. I can confirm that the 55HDX99 also has the flicker issue.

- I played the blue pill/red pill scene for a different salesperson, and stayed silent again. This salesperson also immediately saw the flicker. He too expressed concern, because they sell a lot of these. He also stated, without being prompted by me, that there is something wrong with these sets, and that they should definitely not be doing this.

- Hitachi Canada wants to try "one more thing" but I have not heard from them in several days. I will try to contact them one more time, but it is extremely likely that I will be asking for a full refund on this set, and putting that towards a Pioneer of Panasonic unit.

Sincerely

rmitch
rmitch, Thanks for a very detailed post. Make sure you email that to Jason as well. I'm sorry to say guys, but this sounds almost like the intended design from Hitachi. If only 1 model was having this issue, that would be one thing, but they all seem to have it.

I'm hoping they can fix this design flaw.

*Edit*

As to the video I posted, that was to show how dramatic of a shift in the contrast/brightness of the picture. While I have noticed a more subtle flicker occur more frequently it was harder to pick up with my crapy digital camera.

Hello all:

I have been reading the Hitachi flicker threads, and thought I would contribute.

I have the 55HDT79 at home and it has the flicker. I have done a fair bit of experimentation, and have been in contact with Hitachi Canada on the issue. They are aware of it.

- I see the flicker all the time, from various sources, and with a wide range of video settings. I have tried all the settings posted in this thread, and still see it. My wife sees it too. It is not subtle.

- To demonstrate flicker I use "The Matrix", in particular, the scene where Morpheus offers the blue and red pills to Neo. That scene, with the 2 of them in that dark room, flickers terribly for me. More than on the video posted by Metalsaber.

- I have tried various sources into the 55HDT79, including a Pioneer DV-490V up converting DVD player via HDMI (at various resolutions); a Sony DVD in progressive mode via component video; and a laptop via DVI -> HDMI cable (at various resolutions), and a Motorola DCT6416 set top box via HDMI. In all cases the flicker is present.

- I have tried different cables (HDMI and component) from different manufacturers (Monster, Energy, for example). The flicker is still present.

- I received a ROM upgrade from Hitachi Canada and installed it. My firmware went from V0109.0001 to V0110.0001. The flicker is still present.

- I tested a second 55HDT79 at my local retailer (Visons NW in Calgary AB) where I purchased my set. I played the blue pill/red pill scene from "The Matrix" on their unit and got the assistant manager watch. To be fair, I stayed silent while he watched this scene. He saw the flicker right away, and agrees that the TV should not be doing this. He was also concerned, because he says they sell a lot of those units.

- Together, the assistant manager and I upgraded the ROM on the demo 55HDT79 in the shop. The flicker was still present.

- I decided to test the 55HDX99 Director Series unit, as a possible replacement/upgrade to solve the flicker problem. I went to a second retail outlet (Visions NE in Calgary AB) where they had just installed a brand new, just received, 55HDX99 Director Series unit. I can confirm that the 55HDX99 also has the flicker issue.

- I played the blue pill/red pill scene for a different salesperson, and stayed silent again. This salesperson also immediately saw the flicker. He too expressed concern, because they sell a lot of these. He also stated, without being prompted by me, that there is something wrong with these sets, and that they should definitely not be doing this.

- Hitachi Canada wants to try "one more thing" but I have not heard from them in several days. I will try to contact them one more time, but it is extremely likely that I will be asking for a full refund on this set, and putting that towards a Pioneer of Panasonic unit.

Sincerely

rmitch
RMitch, thanks for the post. I have done similar testing, and unlike some people in this thread, am able to recreate the issue on command. I think that's why some people are having a hard time believing it is inherent to the architecture of the set, because maybe they only see it with this source, or this material; I agree with you: it is always there, it is on every set, it is just less noticeable with some material. In fact, I am one of the few to have actually had 2 samples in his home, and of course, I still have it. And if it is by design, I really can't see Hitachi going "well, this is the way we wanted it, but you...you 50 guys don't like it, so let us send you a fix that undoes all our engineering right away".

Guys, don't hate; you know I'm on your side, and I'm not going to "cave", but when it's done (and no, it's not quite there yet...stay tuned) it'll be time to move on, get a different set (or keep this one if the trade-off is tolerable for you) and start enjoying the tv, not tweaking it.

With RMitch's report, and Jason, and others (because you know we can never trust our own experiences when it comes to this kind of stuff...we must be crazy, until someone else sees it too), I'm about ready to just move on. EXCEPT, if this is really so universally accepted, how did it get pass the Press and Reviewers? Do we need to start a Hitachi conspiracy thread.

CD

Hi:

I forgot to add, all of my home theatre components, including the 55HDT79, DVDs and set top box, get their power through a Monster home theatre powerbar. This powerbar has LED displays showing current and voltage. When everything is on, and the TV is flickering, the current and voltage remain steady, and in normal ranges.

Sincerely,

rmitch

I assume that running the Hitachi through a power conditioner/surge protector would have nothing to do with the flickering issue. Mine is plugged into a Panamax 5100.

I do have to bypass the Panamax with the HD coax cable as I was getting intermittent problems of not receiving certain HD channels. This was recommended by the Comcast rep and I've had no problems since. For the record, this problem occured long before the Hitachi was bought.

Does anyone have their Hitachi plugged straight into the wall socket?

Please don't laugh at this idea, it's just one more item we can eliminate from possible causes... :o

Hi:

Yes, I have tried my configuration with the 55HDT79 plugged directly into a wall socket. The flicker is still present.

Sincerely,

rmitch

Been there, done that too mak99. Plugging directly into wall socket versus surge protector made no difference on my 42HDS69 either.

For me, this issue is very difficult. I definately did notice it watching Inside Job. Its a very dark movie and I saw the flicker in a few scenes. That was with the settings dialed down during the break in.
I have since adjusted the settings and have still seen it, just less frequently.
95% of things I watch are uneffected.
The picture is just stunning. Almost perfect, except for the occasional flicker. I am going to play some more movies this weekend to see how bad it is.
My wife was watching Dancing with the Stars last night. I walked into the room and my jaw almost dropped. Absolutely amazing picture.

It's funny how easily I can recreate this on my older Hitachi panel, just hit the day and night button and the difference is, literally, day and night. I was watching the credits roll at the end of a movie, white letters on a black background, on the day setting, the entire black background would brighten every time the credits changed (making the blacks look almost grey) and then immediately adjust back to black again. If I hit the night button, this effect is entirely gone, blacks stay completely steady and dark, not even a slight hint of "flicker". This makes me think Hitachi must have made it undefeatable on the newer panels, but that there has to be a fix since it's so easy to resolve on mine.

Hopefully you're correct remotecontrolled. FWIW, it's most noticeable in the Day-Dynamic mode on the 42HDS69, but still visible to a lesser degree in both the Day-Normal and Night modes. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think last year's only had the two options: Day or Night).

Not sure if any more progress has been made for you Hitachi owners, but Sound And Vision Magazine found the problem, too when evaluating the 42HDS69. (Sorry if it's been covered). Just wanted to give you guys more recourse! I'm experiencing a similar problem with my new Maxent and I'm just going to take it back and buy a Panasonic 60u.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/equipment/1745/hitachi-42hds69-42-inch-plasma-hdtv-page3.html

Justin

Sound and Vision Quote:

Unfortunately, this scene also exposed a strange picture flaw. As Ford crosses the lab after talking to Betty (Candus Churchill), the entire scene abruptly got darker for about half a second before returning to normal. It appeared to be caused by a quick change in the scene's overall brightness — as the camera follows Ford, a bright lamp exits the shot — and was distracting enough that I thought it must be a mistake on the disc. But after looking at the same scene on another HDTV and not seeing this effect, I had to chalk it up to the Hitachi. I didn't see this fluctuation again despite watching about half of the film, although it also cropped up in test patterns.

See fellas, it ain't just us.....

Hello all:

I have been reading the Hitachi flicker threads, and thought I would contribute.

I have the 55HDT79 at home and it has the flicker. I have done a fair bit of experimentation, and have been in contact with Hitachi Canada on the issue. They are aware of it.

- I see the flicker all the time, from various sources, and with a wide range of video settings. I have tried all the settings posted in this thread, and still see it. My wife sees it too. It is not subtle.

- To demonstrate flicker I use "The Matrix", in particular, the scene where Morpheus offers the blue and red pills to Neo. That scene, with the 2 of them in that dark room, flickers terribly for me. More than on the video posted by Metalsaber.

- I have tried various sources into the 55HDT79, including a Pioneer DV-490V up converting DVD player via HDMI (at various resolutions); a Sony DVD in progressive mode via component video; and a laptop via DVI -> HDMI cable (at various resolutions), and a Motorola DCT6416 set top box via HDMI. In all cases the flicker is present.

- I have tried different cables (HDMI and component) from different manufacturers (Monster, Energy, for example). The flicker is still present.

- I received a ROM upgrade from Hitachi Canada and installed it. My firmware went from V0109.0001 to V0110.0001. The flicker is still present.

- I tested a second 55HDT79 at my local retailer (Visons NW in Calgary AB) where I purchased my set. I played the blue pill/red pill scene from "The Matrix" on their unit and got the assistant manager watch. To be fair, I stayed silent while he watched this scene. He saw the flicker right away, and agrees that the TV should not be doing this. He was also concerned, because he says they sell a lot of those units.

- Together, the assistant manager and I upgraded the ROM on the demo 55HDT79 in the shop. The flicker was still present.

- I decided to test the 55HDX99 Director Series unit, as a possible replacement/upgrade to solve the flicker problem. I went to a second retail outlet (Visions NE in Calgary AB) where they had just installed a brand new, just received, 55HDX99 Director Series unit. I can confirm that the 55HDX99 also has the flicker issue.

- I played the blue pill/red pill scene for a different salesperson, and stayed silent again. This salesperson also immediately saw the flicker. He too expressed concern, because they sell a lot of these. He also stated, without being prompted by me, that there is something wrong with these sets, and that they should definitely not be doing this.

- Hitachi Canada wants to try "one more thing" but I have not heard from them in several days. I will try to contact them one more time, but it is extremely likely that I will be asking for a full refund on this set, and putting that towards a Pioneer of Panasonic unit.



Sincerely

rmitch
Hi Mitch, I am happy that another Canadian has chimed in......I have the exact dilemma as you, however Hitachi didnt admit to me (though I didnt ask) they heard others. I will call them again tommorrow.

damn, I forgot all about the Matrix, I wiish I had thought of that when the techs came in. I have to watch that one now.....

Can you email me who you talked to at Hitachi Canada? :confused:

Not sure if any more progress has been made for you Hitachi owners, but Sound And Vision Magazine found the problem, too when evaluating the 42HDS69. (Sorry if it's been covered). Just wanted to give you guys more recourse! I'm experiencing a similar problem with my new Maxent and I'm just going to take it back and buy a Panasonic 60u.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/equipment/1745/hitachi-42hds69-42-inch-plasma-hdtv-page3.html

Justin

Glad to see this...... ;) .......

...

Does anyone have their Hitachi plugged straight into the wall socket?

Please don't laugh at this idea, it's just one more item we can eliminate from possible causes... :o

Yeah mak99, just went and did that. I have the Panamax too, but bypassed everything and took cable line directly to the plasma from the cable outlet in the wall. Couldn't find a lot of dark stuff on tv right now (just have basic cable), but I caught a quick glimpse of some movie on Sci-Fi with dark scenes and saw the flicker. It was minor and not as noticeable as a DVD, but still there.

Unfortunately, once you've seen the "flicker" there ain't a chance in hell you won't recognize it if it happens again. :(

FWIW, that sounds more like the contrast clamping (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8415324&&#post8415324), which is probably a seperate issue from the floating blacks.

I should run some more tests to see if the clamping is different in the Day and Night modes.

The flickering is simply the contrast, and possibly brightness, being readjusted for differing light conditions but in a more rapid fashion. It is the same thing. When it flickers its as if it is having trouble with a scene or if the scene lighting is changing too quick for it to adjust.

The flickering is simply the contrast, and possibly brightness, being readjusted for differing light conditions but in a more rapid fashion. It is the same thing. When it flickers its as if it is having trouble with a scene or if the scene lighting is changing too quick for it to adjust.

Then is should be easy to avoid this problem - simply don't try to adjust the damn brightness/contrast for every frame. Simply leave is the f*cking level I set it at - just like every television ever made before this one!!!!

Then is should be easy to avoid this problem - simply don't try to adjust the damn brightness/contrast for every frame. Simply leave is the f*cking level I set it at - just like every television ever made before this one!!!!

Ding Ding DingDing Ding Ding!!!!! We have a winner.

Why give us settings for us to control if the TV is going to make adjustments for us?

Then is should be easy to avoid this problem - simply don't try to adjust the damn brightness/contrast for every frame. Simply leave is the f*cking level I set it at - just like every television ever made before this one!!!!
Wow, looks like someone finally went off the deep end... :eek:

...though it pretty much sums up where I'm headed with my frustration and disappointment. I just didn't have the 'nads to say it! :D

Uni, stick with us - we need you!

When the flicker issue is resolved, I will absolutely own the perfect plasma tv...

Its seems that once this is resolved, the hitachi would be a hard tv to pass up for sure. I still can't see the flicker on my 42hdt79 but i have seen it on a hds model and a 55 hdt model. That makes me think it eithor must be my settings or I'm so intent on not seeing it that i won't let myself :) I've put on every dark movie I can find but I just cannot see any flicker on my set, I guess thats lucky for me but who knows once i get it calibrated by a pro I'm scared that it will rear its ugly head and bite me in the ass lol.

Wow, looks like someone finally went off the deep end... :eek:

Uni, stick with us - we need you!



I posted this before my morning coffee...hehehe. But that sums it up. It really is that simple.

Don't worry - I'm with you guys. I'm not giving up hope. I'll call, write, email, stalk, harass anyone I need to!

looks like sound and vision saw the same thing
"Unfortunately, this scene also exposed a strange picture flaw. As Ford crosses the lab after talking to Betty (Candus Churchill), the entire scene abruptly got darker for about half a second before returning to normal. It appeared to be caused by a quick change in the scene's overall brightness — as the camera follows Ford, a bright lamp exits the shot — and was distracting enough that I thought it must be a mistake on the disc. But after looking at the same scene on another HDTV and not seeing this effect, I had to chalk it up to the Hitachi. I didn't see this fluctuation again despite watching about half of the film, although it also cropped up in test patterns."

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/equipment/1745/hitachi-42hds69-42-inch-plasma-hdtv.html

Yo, Steve - please read the thread to see if you're about to post old news! The exact same info was posted just above you, #191 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8477272&&#post8477272) and #192 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8477491&&#post8477491) on this very page...

Thanks, though!

FWIW, it's most noticeable in the Day-Dynamic mode on the 42HDS69, but still visible to a lesser degree in both the Day-Normal and Night modes. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think last year's only had the two options: Day or Night).


My Hitachi is two years old, so I can't tell you about last year's model, but mine only has day and night settings. Day setting automatically lowers my contrast completely and puts my set in "dynamic" mode.

ETA, changed night to day in that second sentence. Sorry.

Interesting.

The flickering is simply the contrast, and possibly brightness, being readjusted for differing light conditions but in a more rapid fashion. It is the same thing. When it flickers its as if it is having trouble with a scene or if the scene lighting is changing too quick for it to adjust.I haven't noticed any fickering as a consequence of the contrast clamping though. As mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8415324&&#post8415324), there seem to be three different dynamic behaviors: the floating/fluctuating black levels, gamma-contrast correction/palette optimization, and contrast clamping. The first two behaviors can be easily confused because they can produce similar-looking fluctuations in some darker scenes. However, the gamma-contrast correction/palette optimization behavior (#2) appears to be an "image processing effect" applied only to the video data, whereas the floating black levels appear to be more "voltage-related".

As mentioned in the other post, the gamma-contrast correction/palette optimization behavior can be defeated for all intensive purposes by using the Normal Contrast Mode and avoiding contrast/gamma correction hotspots in the Contrast control.

The first behavior, ie the floating blacks, cannot be defeated on the 42HDS69 as far as I can tell (via the normal User menus, that is), except perhaps by raising Brightness to what I would consider unacceptably high levels. It's appearance can be reduced though by using brighter background illumination and increasing Contrast on the display to compensate, and using the Day-Normal or Night modes rather than Day-Dynamic. The background or bias illumination reduces the dilation of your pupils so your eyes are less sensitive to changes in darker colors. Higher Contrast on the display helps with this as well, and may also help to lift some darker scenes out of the range of brightness where the black level fluctuations are more likely to occur.

The contrast clamping (ie the third behavior), which also seems distinct from the other two, is designed to keep brighter scenes on the display from becoming too overpowering to your eyes at high Contrast settings. In the 3+ weeks I've had the 42HDS69, I've looked at probably 2 or 3 dozen DVDs with both bright and dark scenes and FWIW I've yet to see any flickering as a consequence of the contrast clamping. The clamping occurs so quickly I don't even notice it.

I did some more thorough tests of the contrast clamping btw, and here are the results.

----------------------------------------

CONTRAST CLAMPING RESULTS:

-----Contrast Clamp Point-----
APL Day-Dynamic Day-Normal Night

20% 100% 77% 77%
40% 100% 70% 70%
60% 59% 54% 59%
80% 33% 29% 32%
100% 20% 17% 19%


DVD PLAYER SETTINGS
Input: HDMI
Resolutions: 480p, 720p & 1080i (no visible difference between them)
Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4
Color Palette: 16-235 unexpanded

DISPLAY SETTINGS
Brightness: 59%
Color Temp: Medium (differences in clamping between the temps are minor)
Black Enhancement: Off
Contrast Mode: Normal
Image Power: Max
MMC Software: V0110.0001

----------------------------------------

The clamping appears to be slightly more aggressive on bright scenes in the Day-Normal mode than in Night mode. The biggest difference though is that the Day-Dynamic mode appears to have little or no clamping whatsoever on scenes with an average picture level (APL) of ~40% or less.

There's some additional rise in the brightness of the screen in each mode as you approach 100% Contrast as well. However, setting Contrast to 100% does not disable the contrast clamping in any way, and it may possibly introduce some other unusual gamma/contrast correction behaviors as well. (YMMV on that.)

If you're running Contrast at around 70% in the Day-Normal or Night modes, the above results may explain why the clamping is starting to become more apparent and bright scenes are appearing more "flat". Scenes with even fairly subdued brightness (~20% APL) will start to be clamped at 77% Contrast in those two modes. If you reduce Contrast to about 50% (and your background lighting a little), the clamping should be less noticeable because it will only effect scenes with an APL of about 70% or greater (IOW, very bright scenes).

Every display (not just the Hitachi) has limitations, and getting Contrast and background lighting right is one of the keys to getting the best results within those limitations. Unfortunately the content will vary as well, so that makes it a little more difficult to stay with just one group of settings for every situation. Some people will be bothered by one facet of display's limitations more than others as well. Aiming for something perhaps in the 40-50% Contrast range with the Day-Normal and Night modes, and using ample background illumination so that level of Contrast is not stressful on your eyes may not be a bad place to start though.

If you don't completely trust your eyes, and need a reference to help get background illumination more in the ballpark, there are ambient reference patterns on calibration discs like DVE. DVE recommends using background levels of ~35% or less (35% in nonlinear luminosity levels, or 10% in linear light) for the best results. So something in the 20%-30% range may not be a bad target for these particular displays. In addition to the ambient reference pattern (which is about 35% luminosity) at Title 12, Chapter 16, there's also a 20% luminosity Flat Field at Title 14, Chapter 2 that may be useful. You may wnat to experiment with background levels around this range to see what looks best to your eyes.

If you don't have DVE, The THX Optimizer which can be found in the setup options on any THX-mastered DVD (eg Star Wars, The Incredibles, etc.) has a pattern of grey swatches that might help get you in the ballpark as well. The THX Brightness/Black Level pattern has 4 grey swatches on both the left and right side of the THX logo. The luminosity of those squares are ~14%, ~26%, ~61% and ~99%. Background levels which are close the 2nd darkest square (~26%) on either side of the THX logo should put you within DVE's recommended levels.

With a normal CRT, I would probably aim for a little darker background illumination, perhaps closer to a 15% luminosity pattern on the screen. I'm suggesting higher levels for these Hitachi plasmas though to help counteract the floating blacks and weaker black levels.

Note also that you can bring the background lighting into range by either changing the lighting itself, or by readjusting Contrast on the display. The lower you set Contrast on the display though, the more apparent any weaknesses in the black levels will become. And at the upper end of Contrast, you may start to notice the clamping (in the Day-Normal and Night modes anyway). So the trick is probably to find the sweet spot for Contrast, where the display's limitations are least apparent, and then ideally adjust the background illumination to suit that Contrast level, rather than vice-versa. There may be a little give or take on both sides of the equation though.

Also, as mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8355828&&#post8355828), I wouldn't really advise using dimmers for your lighting adjustment, because they may flicker and contribute to eye fatigue and the sense of flicker on the display as well. If you aren't bothered by the much higher frequency flicker of fluorescent bulbs, you can pick up some 6500K screw-in fluorescents from Walmart cheap. They carry 10W 6500K GE bulbs and 15W, 20W an 25W 6500K "Flourex" bulbs made by Lights of America. (Look for "6500K" on the labels.)

You don't necessarily have to go the 6500K route though. Track lighting, lamps or whatever you have handy will work as well. The colors just won't look quite as vibrant or distinct as with 6500K lights. Use whatever's most comfortable for your eyes though. Personally the fluorescents are a little fatiguing to mine. You could also try a mixture of incandescent and flourescents... maybe a dim fluorescent behind the display and then some track lighting or incandescents to fill the rest of the area around the display.

A couple more notes...

There were no signs of "crushed" whites in any of the Day/Night modes (including Day-Dynamic).

The reason the clamping levels above are different than the results I posted earlier (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8415324&&#post8415324) is probably due to differences in the color palettes/blacklevels, ie the unexpanded 16-235 palette on the HDMI player, versus the expanded 0-255 palette on the progressive component player.

Also, in the firmware/software notes Jason posted in the main HDS69 thread. there was mention of a correction to clamping in one of the revisions. So different revs may clamp the contrast differently.

A reminder also that the contrast clamp points are effected by other controls, such as Brightness, Black Enhancement and Contrast Mode (which is why I listed the settings used for those above).

I don't necessarily advocate using 59% Brightness either. I chose that level for the tests simply because it produced the most shadow information, but without producing any background noise for my particular player (and it also happened to be very close to the THX/DVE black level spec for my player/display.)

I haven't noticed any fickering as a consequence of the contrast clamping though. As mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8415324&&#post8415324), there seem to be three different dynamic behaviors: the floating/fluctuating black levels, gamma-contrast correction/palette optimization, and contrast clamping. The first two behaviors can be easily confused because they can produce similar-looking fluctuations in some darker scenes. However, the gamma-contrast correction/palette optimization behavior (#2) appears to be an "image processing effect" applied only to the video data, whereas the floating black levels appear to be more "voltage-related".

As mentioned in the other post, the gamma-contrast correction/palette optimization behavior can be defeated for all intensive purposes by using the Normal Contrast Mode and avoiding contrast/gamma correction hotspots in the Contrast control.

The first behavior, ie the floating blacks, cannot be defeated as far as I can tell, accept perhaps by raising Brightness to what I would consider unacceptably high levels. It's appearance can be noticeably reduced though by using brighter background illumination and increasing Contrast on the display to compensate, and using the Day-Normal or Night modes rather than Day-Dynamic. The background or bias illumination reduces the dilation of your pupils so your eyes are less sensitive to changes in darker colors. Increasing Contrast on the display helps with this as well, and may also help to lift some darker scenes out of the range of brightness where the black level fluctuations are more likely to occur.

The contrast clamping (ie the third behavior), which also seems distinct from the other two, is designed to keep brighter scenes on the display from becoming too overpowering to your eyes at high Contrast settings. In the 3+ weeks I've had the 42HDS69, I've looked at probably 2 or 3 dozen DVDs with both bright and dark scenes and FWIW I've yet to see any flickering as a consequence of the contrast clamping. The clamping occurs so quickly I don't even notice it.

I did some more thorough tests of the contrast clamping btw, and here are the results.

----------------------------------------

CONTRAST CLAMPING RESULTS:

-----Contrast Clamp Point-----
APL Day-Dynamic Day-Normal Night

20% 100% 77% 77%
40% 100% 70% 70%
60% 59% 54% 59%
80% 33% 29% 32%
100% 20% 17% 19%


DVD PLAYER SETTINGS
Input: HDMI
Resolutions: 480p, 720p & 1080i (no visible difference between them)
Color Space: YCbCr 4:4:4
Color Palette: 16-235 unexpanded

DISPLAY SETTINGS
Brightness: 59%
Color Temp: Medium (differences between the temps are minor)
Black Enhancement: Off
Contrast Mode: Normal
Image Power: Max
MMC Software: V0110.0001

----------------------------------------

The clamping appears to be slightly more aggressive on bright scenes in the Day-Normal mode than in Night mode.

The biggest difference though is that the Day-Dynamic mode appears to have little or no clamping whatsoever on scenes with an average picture level of ~40% or less, which is one reason why darker scenes appear so much more bright/dynamic in that mode at the higher contrast settings. (The Day-Dynamic mode appears to have brighter gamma than the others as well).

There's some additional rise in the brightness of the screen in each mode as you approach 100% Contrast as well. However, setting Contrast to 100% does not reduce or disable the contrast clamping in any way, and it may possibly introduce some other unusual gamma/contrast correction behaviors, perhaps particularly in the Day-Normal and Night modes.

If you're running contrast in the 70% range in the Day-Normal or Night modes, the above results may explain why the clamping is starting to become more apparent and bright scenes are appearing more "flat". Scenes with even fairly subdued brightness (~20% APL) will start to be clamped at 77% Contrast in those two modes. If you reduce Contrast to about 50% (and your background lighting a little), the clamping should be less noticeable because it will only effect scenes with an APL of about 70% or greater (IOW, very bright scenes).

Every display (not just the Hitachi) has limitations, and getting Contrast and background lighting right is one of the keys to getting the best results within those limitations. Unfortunately the content will vary as well, so that makes it a little more difficult to stay with just one group of settings for every situation. Some people will be bothered by one facet of display's limitations more than others as well. Aiming for something perhaps in the 50% Contrast range with the Day-Normal and Night modes, and using ample background illumination so that level of Contrast is not stressful on your eyes may not be a bad place to start though.

If you don't completely trust your eyes, and need a reference to help get background illumination more in the ballpark, there are ambient reference patterns on calibration discs like DVE. DVE recommends using background illumination of ~35% or less of the max screen brightness for the best results. So something in the 25%-35% brightness range may not be a bad target. If you don't have DVE, The THX Optimizer which can be found in the setup options on any THX-mastered DVD (eg Star Wars, The Incredibles, etc.) has a pattern of grey swatches that might help get you in the ballpark as well. The THX Brightness/Black Level pattern has 4 grey swatches on both the left and right side of the THX logo. The brightness of those squares are ~14%, ~26%, ~61% and ~99%. Background lighting which is close to or slightly above the 2nd darkest square (~26%) on either side of the THX logo should put you within DVE's recommended levels.

Note that you can bring the background lighting into range by either changing the lighting itself, or by readusting Contrast on the display. The lower you set Contrast on the display though, the more apparent any weaknesses in the black levels will become. And at the upper end of Contrast, you may start to notice the clamping (in the Day-Normal and Night modes anyway). So the trick is probably to find the sweet spot for Contrast, where the display's limitations are least apparent, and then ideally adjust the background illumination to match that Contrast level, rather than vice-versa. There may be a little give or take on both sides of the equation though.

Also, as mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8355828&&#post8355828), I wouldn't really advise using dimmers for your lighting adjustment, because they may flicker and contribute to eye fatigue and the sense of flicker on the display as well. If you aren't bothered by the much higher frequency flicker of fluorescent bulbs, you can pick up some 6500K screw-in fluorescents from Walmart cheap. They carry 10W 6500K GE bulbs and 15W, 20W an 25W 6500K "Flourex" bulbs made by Lights of America.

You don't necessarily have to go the 6500K route though. Track lighting, lamps or whatever you have handy will work as well. The colors just won't look quite as vibrant or distinct as with 6500K lights. Use whatever's most comfortable for your eyes though. Personally the fluorescents are little fatiguing to mine. You could also try a mixture of incandescent and flourescents... maybe a dim fluorescent behind the display and then some track lighting or incandescents to fill the rest of the around the display.

A couple more notes...

There were no signs of "crushed" whites in any of the Day/Night modes (including Day-Dynamic).

The reason the clamping levels above are different than the results I posted earlier is probably due to differences in the color palettes, ie the unexpanded 16-235 palette on the HDMI player, versus the expanded 0-255 palette on the progressive component player.

Also, in the firmware/software notes Jason posted in the main HDS69 thread. there was mention of a correction to clamping in one of the revisions. So different revs may clamp the contrast differently.

A reminder also that the contrast clamp points are effected by other controls, such as Brightness, Black Enhancement and Contrast Mode (which is why I listed the settings used for those above).

I don't necessarily recommend using 59% Brightness either. I chose that level for the tests simply because it produced the most shadow information, but without producing any background noise (and it also happened to be very close to the THX/DVE black level spec for my player/display.)

Great info, thanks for your time...however...that was the most confusing thing I ever read. Could you boil it down into something smaller? Are you saying you don't see the flicker as a result of having lights on in the room? What settings are you using?

Are you saying you don't see the flicker as a result of having lights on in the room?More or less, yes... provided the lighting is arranged more to fill the background behind the display, rather than washing out the contrast by shining directly or indirectly at the screen.What settings are you using?These are for an HDMI player with an unexpanded 16-235 palette.

VIDEO MENU SETTINGS

PICTURE MODE: NIGHT on most content, DAY-DYNAMIC if I want more contrast/punch on darker films.

CONTRAST: Variable, but generally 35-75%.
I don't always have the luxury of doing my viewing in totally controlled lighting so I've been adjusting to compensate for different background lighting conditions, differences in video content, and whether I'm using the Night or Day-Dynamic mode, while also trying to avoid spots on the Contrast "dial" that are more prone to contrast fluctuations. (The hot spots are different in the Day-Dynamic mode than in the Night mode btw.)

If you don't really have control over the lighting in your viewing area, then you can reverse the process in the last post and use the ambient reference patterns in the THX Optimizer or DVE as a guide for setting the Contrast level on the display to an appropriate level for your lighting conditions...If you don't completely trust your eyes, and need a reference to help get background illumination more in the ballpark, there are ambient reference patterns on calibration discs like DVE. DVE recommends using background levels of ~35% or less (35% in nonlinear luminosity levels, or 10% in linear light) for the best results. So something in the 20%-30% range may not be a bad target for these particular displays. In addition to the ambient reference pattern (which is about 35% luminosity) at Title 12, Chapter 16, there's also a 20% luminosity Flat Field at Title 14, Chapter 2 that may be useful. You may wnat to experiment with background levels around this range to see what looks best to your eyes.

If you don't have DVE, The THX Optimizer which can be found in the setup options on any THX-mastered DVD (eg Star Wars, The Incredibles, etc.) has a pattern of grey swatches that might help get you in the ballpark as well. The THX Brightness/Black Level pattern has 4 grey swatches on both the left and right side of the THX logo. The luminosity of those squares are ~14%, ~26%, ~61% and ~99%. Background levels which are close the 2nd darkest square (~26%) on either side of the THX logo should put you within DVE's recommended levels.

With a normal CRT, I would probably aim for a little darker background illumination, perhaps even as low as a 10% to 15% luminosity pattern on the screen. I'm suggesting higher levels for these Hitachi plasmas though to help counteract the floating blacks and much weaker black levels.

Note that you can bring the background lighting into range by either changing the lighting itself, or by readjusting Contrast on the display. The lower you set Contrast on the display though, the more apparent any weaknesses in the black levels will become. And at the upper end of Contrast, you may start to notice the clamping (in the Day-Normal and Night modes anyway). So the trick is probably to find the sweet spot for Contrast, where the display's limitations are least apparent, and then ideally adjust the background illumination to match that Contrast level, rather than vice-versa. There may be a little give or take on both sides of the equation though.If you've got enough background illumination to comfortably watch the display at 40-50% Contrast or above, then you're probably doing pretty well in terms of diminishing the visibility of the floating blacks. I don't recommend running Contrast any higher than is comfortable to your eyes simply to help diminish this problem though. If you want the Contrast higher, then my advice is to increase the background lighting as well till the contrast on the display is comfortable to you eyes.

Whether you're more sensitive to black or white level issues may also influence how you adjust this control. If you're more sensitive to the contrast clamping than the floating blacks, then you may prefer Contrast set a little lower.

BRIGHTNESS: 53-56%
Brightness is source-dependent. DVE and THX return a value of about 58-59% for my HDMI DVD player. I've been tending to run Brightness a little lower though to make up for the less than perfect black levels on the TV. And sometimes to make up for elevated blacks or brighter gamma in the video content.

How low you run Brightness depends on how much shadow detail you're willing to sacrifice in favor of more color depth. If you're using a DVD player, DVE and the THX Optimizer will put you at "standard CRT operating levels" for that input device, but they will not add any compensation for the less the ideal black levels of a particular display (ie plasma/LCD). There are a couple things you can do to compensate for the less than ideal black levels, and achieve better color depth on the display: cheat the Brightness setting a bit lower than the THX/DVE spec, or add some Black Enhancement. Both should give you about the same result, ie more color depth, but at the expense of somewhat crushed black detail.

As mentioned above, my HDMI DVD player specs to about 58-59%. Any higher and the black levels start to elevate due to background noise in the image. To give the picture adequate color depth, I can either leave the black level at about 59% and change Black Enhancement from Off to Low. Or I can simply lower Brightness a few notches to the lower 50's. My personal preference has been to use the second approach since it gives more discrete control. So far I've yet to find a situation in my personal uses of the TV where the Black Enhancement was preferable, but I wouldn't discount that as a possibility. You may want to try both and see which works better for you.

COLOR: 32%
Straight spec on this. Running color slightly higher than spec is another common thing to do to make up for weak black levels though.

TINT: MIDDLE

SHARPNESS: 11-30%
Depends on content, and resolution.

COLOR TEMPERATURE: MEDIUM
STANDARD looks too yellow to my eye. Medium seems to give the most distinct colors and neutral-looking greys on my display.

BLACK ENHANCEMENT: OFF

CONTRAST MODE: NORMAL

NOISE REDUCTION: HIGH.
Content, input, resolution, and perhaps also viewing-distance dependent. HIGH produces the least edge-enhancement/ringing. SD sources and/or analog inputs may need a little more help in the sharpness dept. however, so on those I have sometimes used MEDIUM.

AUTO MOVIE MODE: ON
This enables cadence-based reverse telecine deinterlacing on film-based 480i sources, and possibly on "zoomed" 1080i sources (ie 1080i with Aspect modes other than STANDARD2). In general, I try to avoid using either of these, so the display isn't forced into performing the deinterlacing.

BLACK SIDE PANEL: OFF
To prevent pillarbox burn-in.

ASPECT: STANDARD2 for 720p/1080i, STANDARD for 480p (for normal 16x9 anamorphic content).

SCREEN SAVER SETTINGS

MAIN PICTURE MOVING: OPTION 1
Pixel shifting is probably more important if there are static elements on the screen (tickers, HUDs, etc.). OPTION 1 is supposed to perform the most frequent moves, so it's probably the best setting to reduce the impression of burnin and IR on static screen elements.

IMAGE POWER: MAX
I see no difference in PQ with the other settings. And if you're concerned about power consumption, I think you can get the same savings by simply lowering contrast. The other settings may be useful in protecting against burn-in (ie during breakin or when you're not around), by reducing the maximum Contrast level of the display.

AUTOMATIC POWER SAVING: YES
FWIW, changing this also had no noticeable effect on the floating blacks.

Got done talking with a respected company that has postings here and they are aware of this issue as well. While it doesn't make me feel better, at least it seems to be getting some attention.

Email has been sent to the engineer. I told him that I would send him more serial #'s as they came in. So if for some reason you haven't sent me your info, please do so. The more info he has, the more he will be able to help us....

Jason,

What do you expect the likelyhood of something being done?
The reason I ask is that the 28th of this month is the last date I can return my TV to CC with no questions asked.

If I knew there was a possible solution in the near future, like a month or 2. Otherwise, I'm without a TV for movies and there currently is nothing in my area that are 1080i or higher in a plasma TV that I can afford.

:(

Regrettably, I've decided to return my (purchased as an open item) 42HDS69. Not really because of the floating blacks, but because the effective operating range (specifically the black levels) simply seems brighter than I'm what looking for. The HDX's sound like they could be a little better fit for my needs, but I don't think I can afford one of those right now. So I may stick just with CRTs awhile longer.

These seem like fantastic displays in many respects though (inputs, pixel response, level of detail, screen resolution, XGA support via HDMI...). So I'll be sad to see this display go. If I can figure out a more effective way of dealing with or cutting down the brightness and black levels, then I might revisit these again. I think I need to do a little more investigating of what else is out there before going down that path though.

Ok I just got off the phone with Oscar. He said the info that we gave him is exactly what he was looking for. He also wanted me to let you guys know that Hitachi WILL TAKE CARE OF THIS PROBLEM. He actually promised me that all of our sets would be fixed. I told him that some of us have 30 days to return our sets and asked if it would be fixed with in a month. He could not say, but he did say that if need be, Hitachi would extend all of our warranties until a fix was found. He is going to contact me by email when he gets any info for us. I told him I would call him in a week to check in and see what is going on.

The good news, it looks like Hitachi is going to take care of this problem.
The bad news, we have to live with it until they do.

If you have not sent me your info, please do, the more info he has, the better.

Hang in there guys... More to come.

This sounds very promising. My 30 day return is next Thursday. I did get the 3yr warranty from them, so I'm covered regardless.

Did Oscar give you any indication whether this could be resolved via. firmware update or was this something an official technician would have to fix?

I guess I'll probably hang on to this set especially if they intend to fix the set.

Ok I just got off the phone with Oscar. He said the info that we gave him is exactly what he was looking for. He also wanted me to let you guys know that Hitachi WILL TAKE CARE OF THIS PROBLEM. He actually promised me that all of our sets would be fixed. I told him that some of us have 30 days to return our sets and asked if it would be fixed with in a month. He could not say, but he did say that if need be, Hitachi would extend all of our warranties until a fix was found. He is going to contact me by email when he gets any info for us. I told him I would call him in a week to check in and see what is going on.

The good news, it looks like Hitachi is going to take care of this problem.
The bad news, we have to live with it until they do.

If you have not sent me your info, please do, the more info he has, the better.

Hang in there guys... More to come.


He did not. My gut tells me it is a software issure. But when I know more, you will know more...

Jason, you are truly the proverbial needle in the haystack! Your efforts are very much appreciated by me, and I'm sure by all others that have both posted here and quietly lurked from the sidelines.

Keep us in the loop, and I foresee "Paypal pints" in your future... :D

He did not. My gut tells me it is a software issure. But when I know more, you will know more...

Thats great Jason. A big thanks for all your help.
I sent all my info to you, and I hope more people do as well to help the cause.

Well, I'm now a litte more encouraged after hearing/seeing your post, Jason. Thanks a million...again. I would urge everyone to thank Jason the best way we can and look at the link in his signature (JBM Audio). I know I will certainly be looking to show my support when I need something for my A/V gear.

Went into CC today to check out their display model. It did not show the flicker. I did not look at the manufacture date, but it's firmware version was 110 which is like early production.

I'm not sure if they did any calibration on the TV, but even when I set the set to Night mode, the contrast was still at like 80. I'm not sure if that was factory settings or not.

*Edit* I noticed it had 300+ hours on the set.

Anyone here over 300hrs and still experience this issue?

Went into CC today to check out their display model. It did not show the flicker. I did not look at the manufacture date, but it's firmware version was 110 which is like early production.

I'm not sure if they did any calibration on the TV, but even when I set the set to Night mode, the contrast was still at like 80. I'm not sure if that was factory settings or not.

*Edit* I noticed it had 300+ hours on the set.

Anyone here over 300hrs and still experience this issue?

How do you check the hours?

80 contrast is still very high. The flicker in noticed when the the contrast and brightness are down in the 40s or lower.

All sets in the stores have the brightness/contrast set wwaaaaaaaaaayyy to high.

How do you check the hours?

80 contrast is still very high. The flicker in noticed when the the contrast and brightness are down in the 40s or lower.

All sets in the stores have the brightness/contrast set wwaaaaaaaaaayyy to high.

For the 42HDS69 its "Menu, Menu, 8, Select". Repeat until the service menu appears then scroll down to the second screen and you will see the hours.

OK, I wasn't sure I saw the flicker before, but now I am. I also believe that it is not only present in very dark scenes. (42HDS69, v0110.0001.)

I saw it twice this weekend. Once while watching a DVD, and once while watching ABC-HD.

Here are my settings for the DVD:
* Mode-day(dynamic), Contrast-40, Brightness-50, Color-62, Sharpness-50, Color Temp-high, Black Enhance-off, Contrast Mode-dynamic, Noise Reduction-low
* Panasonic (older model) non-progressive player, component input
* saw flicker during last few seconds of Hostel chap 19, when screen goes completely dark (the actor is in a room, and all the lights in the room go out.)
* ambient lighting: indirect from one 60w lamp.

The letterbox bars were also changing brightness, as noted in other posts. Even though the scene was completely dark, you could tell the difference between the letterbox bars (completely black) and the image frame (grayish black, and noisy.) I think the noise in the image frame was what was causing the contrast algorithm to adjust.

Here are the Cable settings:
* Mode-day(dynamic), Contrast-50, Brightness-50, Color-62, Sharpness-50, Color Temp-high, Black Enhance-off, Contrast Mode-dynamic, Noise Reduction-low
* QAM tuner, Time-Warner Cable
* Saw flicker during Brothers & Sisters, scene in hotel room, not particularly dark
* ambient lighting: direct from one 100W lamp and indirect from one 60w lamp

During this scene the screen was really pulsing like a strobe light. It wasn't a particularly dark scene. I think the characters were in the hotel room, and there was bright light coming from a window. The bright window light was I think causing some deep shadows.

Has anyone else seen this on brighter scenes?

OK, I wasn't sure I saw the flicker before, but now I am. I also believe that it is not only present in very dark scenes. (42HDS69, v0110.0001.)

I saw it twice this weekend. Once while watching a DVD, and once while watching ABC-HD.

Here are my settings for the DVD:
* Mode-day(dynamic), Contrast-40, Brightness-50, Color-62, Sharpness-50, Color Temp-high, Black Enhance-off, Contrast Mode-dynamic, Noise Reduction-low
* Panasonic (older model) non-progressive player, component input
* saw flicker during last few seconds of Hostel chap 19, when screen goes completely dark (the actor is in a room, and all the lights in the room go out.)
* ambient lighting: indirect from one 60w lamp.

The letterbox bars were also changing brightness, as noted in other posts. Even though the scene was completely dark, you could tell the difference between the letterbox bars (completely black) and the image frame (grayish black, and noisy.) I think the noise in the image frame was what was causing the contrast algorithm to adjust.

Here are the Cable settings:
* Mode-day(dynamic), Contrast-50, Brightness-50, Color-62, Sharpness-50, Color Temp-high, Black Enhance-off, Contrast Mode-dynamic, Noise Reduction-low
* QAM tuner, Time-Warner Cable
* Saw flicker during Brothers & Sisters, scene in hotel room, not particularly dark
* ambient lighting: direct from one 100W lamp and indirect from one 60w lamp

During this scene the screen was really pulsing like a strobe light. It wasn't a particularly dark scene. I think the characters were in the hotel room, and there was bright light coming from a window. The bright window light was I think causing some deep shadows.

Has anyone else seen this on brighter scenes?

Yup, I see it in bright scenes too. Email your stuff to Jason on this thread......serial# etc and he will send that to Hitachi.

Yup, I see it in bright scenes too. Email your stuff to Jason on this thread......serial# etc and he will send that to Hitachi.

Thanks for the confirmation. I have sent my settings and content info.

Fluctuations in brighter scenes may be the result of using the Dynamic Contrast Mode. See some of my previous posts regarding Contrast hot spots as well, and how to find/avoid them.

CD, delphi96, et al...

Are the floating blacks present in all three Day/Night modes with the Standard Temp?

This is probably a long shot, but I was reading how floating blacks were resolved/reduced on another brand of plasma by using a certain temperature with a specific display mode. My 42HDS69 is gone now, and I can't remember if I tried all possible combinations of Day/Night and Temp modes. Most of my tests were done using the Medium and High temps though. So maybe using the Standard Temp with a certain Day/Night mode (especially Night or Day/Normal?) might be worth a try.

For the 42HDS69 its "Menu, Menu, 8, Select". Repeat until the service menu appears then scroll down to the second screen and you will see the hours.


This works on the 55hdt79 as well, I just tried it.

I have 273 hours (?), wow, is that right? I bought TV at end of july......hmm.

This works on the 55hdt79 as well, I just tried it.

I have 273 hours (?), wow, is that right? I bought TV at end of july......hmm.

Well its hard to say. When I got mine, it had 0 hrs on it. So unless you checked when you first got it, its hard to say. I got mine end of last month and have been running the break in DVD for about 5hrs a day on the weekdays and about 10-12 on the weekend.

Last night I just broke 200hrs. So its possible since you got yours in July.

Well its hard to say. When I got mine, it had 0 hrs on it. So unless you checked when you first got it, its hard to say. I got mine end of last month and have been running the break in DVD for about 5hrs a day on the weekdays and about 10-12 on the weekend.

Last night I just broke 200hrs. So its possible since you got yours in July.

Ya, either that or my wife leaves the TV on all day when I am away on business :eek:

I guess mine is broken in already then.

Fluctuations in brighter scenes may be the result of using the Dynamic Contrast Mode. See some of my previous posts regarding Contrast hot spots as well, and how to find/avoid them.

Thanks for the info. I haven't optimized my settings yet, and I figure the Hitachi engineers can use all the data points they can get.

Can't quite agree on this (though the Day-Normal and Night modes appear almost identical when all other settings are put the same). FWIW, these are a few of the differences I noted on the 42HDS69 I tested (with V0110 software).

- Day-Dynamic and Day-Normal modes have slightly more edge-enhancement than Night mode.

- Day-Dynamic mode clamps contrast differently at higher Contrast settings than the other modes.

- Black level fluctuations are more pronounced in the Day-Dynamic mode.

- Day-Dynamic mode also appears to have a different gamma or contrast response which enhances contrast in darker content.

YMMV of course.
ADU, based on my 2nd sample, I'm going to have to say that I stand corrected and that I agree with you. With my first set, I tested whether there was any difference other than just saving the settings, and I have to say things looked identical when settings were the same.

I finally spent some good time with the set last night...well, let me back up a sec; first, I watched the games yesterday. Set is only at about 60 hours on the second break-in, but we had company and everyone wanted to watch the new plasma. Now, we were primarily watching the Ravens game, which (CBS bastards) was not in HD. But, to show the set off a little bit, we did put the Seattle v. NY game (FoxHD) on during commercial breaks and...now mind you, this is not broken-in, not properly set-up or calibrated...just everything set to 50% (except I think Color was in the 40s)...and the picture looked AMAZING!! And whereas I usually have a harder time seeing the Contrast issue with my HD STB, but can still see it, yesterday I really could not.

So last night I spent some time with the DVD player and I am completely exasperated!! Here's what I found: performing my usual "white pause on black background" torture test, I had a harder time reproducing the "adjustment"; I saw it, but it wasn't as pronounced. On one of the Modes, and this is where I now agree with ADU, that these settings must offer some enhancement in addition to their user settings, I could see the Contrast steps down darker, darker, darker, as the white pause left the black background, but instead of stepping like 5 noticeable steps, like my last set, it only stepped like one...which I could totally live with; it was like there was one black level with the white pause on the black background and when it went away, it stepped down once to a darker black. Great, hope sprung eternal.

So I switched Modes (and guys, let me warn you right now...I don't remember which one did which and I didn't take notes, like I usually do, and by the end of this post I think you'll see why) and tinkered with the settings a bit, and tried my test again. This time it was more like I remembered: stepped down like 4 or 5 distinguishable levels of black as the white pause went away. So I figured it must be that these settings, in this Mode, were making the issue worse than the settings I was using in the other Mode, so I set them the same...and it did like one step down in one Mode and more like 4 or 5 noticeable steps in the other, even with ALL the settings the same!!

So then I got out of my pause test and decided to actually watch something. Platinum Edition of Seven is a good test; lots of dark scenes, shifting light, Contrast, etc., and I always had an easy time identifying the adjustment issue using this title before. So, with the DVD, same thing, in the one Mode, as I put the white pause over the picture and dark, letterbox bands, I could see the letterbox bands shift down one step of black, but in the other Mode more like 4 or 5. But beyond that, when I took a look at the picture, this sample seems to REALLY be exhibiting the horrible Green balance reviewers have pointed out; Black looked Greenish-Grey, Grey looked Green. I mean maybe the Tint needs some dialing in, because like I said, the settings were pretty straightforward, but I'm really starting to get down on this set.

I mean, if it turns out the Day-Dynamic, Day-Normal, and Night modes do things other than hold my user settings, why aren't they identified in the Owner's Manual? The Color Decoding is a bit of a mess, and of course most of us have this "flicker" issue we can't get a handle on (Oh, ALMOST FORGOT...with my first sample, my "flicker" was only ever caused when the picture was actually in motion, or like the white pause was dropping off of the black background; in other words, it NEVER did it with an image from a DVD paused. Now I have heard others say their sets "flickered" or "strobed" while paused, even to the extent that they were able to have a technician look at a paused image and identify the issue. Well now, with my second sample, I saw my set "flicker", or more like a "strobe", while paused. Again, only in one Mode and not the other...and I could recreate it every time).

It's true, this set can look AMAZING, and every time I am absolutely ready to give up on it, it knocks my socks off again. But it's really all over the place so far, and it's not like I haven't tried giving it my time and attention. My wife is ready to divorce me and throw the set out the window (not sure which one would come first) as a result of all the tweaking and posting. I think I've got about 20 days left on my second 30, but I'm not sure I can even hang in there. I'm going to try and ride it out, and who wouldn't want to end up with the best set at the best price, but if I find the right deal on a PDP-4270, I might just be a bad memory (long-ass posts) of the Hitachi thread.

Of course, FWIW, I just saw a new thread from a guy who is having a similar problem with a TH50PHD9UK. Go figure.

CD

Ok, let me say some things here:

1) If you want a perfect set, buy a CRT. The technology for DLP, Plasma, and LCD are still way too new. There will be bugs. If you want to keep up with Jone's, you have to be able to wait out a couple of fixes.

2) This set is a great set. Football in HD and HD content in general is awesome. If you haven't yet, check on the tonight show in HD. It is jaw dropping. And Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, forget about it. Crazy Cool! The only thing I can complain about is this contrast shift thing. I have talked to the lead engineer at Hitachi personally. He promised that this would be problem would be taken care. And when it is, good luck finding a better set for the money. Hell right now, with the problem, good luck finding a better set for the money.

3) Here is a response from the engineer. He wants to make sure that everyone has the lastest firmware. So if you haven't had the upgrade, please get it.

Jason,

Please make sure to have customers call and get the LATEST software available and have them install it asap. Or, if YOU can go ahead and install
in their TV sets the latest Software Upgrade. We have had some positive results from some customers after the LATEST upgrade was done.

Just go ahead and try it anyhow...That way, we will have the latest SV available installed in all of them...and THAT is also very important to do as well.

As of now, numerous of these reported issues are still on previous versions (or original). Not all of them have the latest...and maybe some of them will be better after
the latest SV is applied.

As I mentioned to you, there are two options: Have them call 800 Hitachi (this may take a long time) or you could go and install the upgrades.

We are working on a C/M as we speak and as soon as I can get my hands on it..I will ask YOU to go ahead and try it in your set at home and possible few of your customers and see what the results are.

Regards,

OR


They are working on it. They will fix it. Just try to be patient. I think if you are, you will be very happy with your decision. Remember, I am in the same boat as you guys. I own the 42HDS69. I am going to wait it out because I think the positives FAR out way the neg on this set.

Hang in there guys.....Help is coming.

Jason - thanks again. We can't say it enough times.

What is the version # for the lastest firmware? Is it the same for 42 and 55" sets?

Jason - thanks again. We can't say it enough times.

What is the version # for the lastest firmware? Is it the same for 42 and 55" sets?

Here is the file with the latest firmware again

Thanks again Jason. It does sound like they are going to work on it. I certainly hope they can reproduce the problem in their test environment. If they do, it just makes it easier for them to fix. If they can't, it probably is going to take a lot longer.

OK Guys, you have convinced me to fight for this set (42HDS69). I'm off today "sick", so I'm going to spend LOTS of time with the set, take some notes, and then report my findings to Hitachi. I'll let you know what comes of it and my methodology, but I think I'll do it in a new thread, so stay tuned.

CD

I'll let you know what comes of it and my methodology, but I think I'll do it in a new thread, so stay tuned.

CD
Please, keep the findings here. I already go back and forth between the "New Hitachi" thread and this one...

Ok, I just got off the phone with Hitachi and they said that the flicker is NOT a known issue and he was not aware if they're developing a software upgrade. I can't seem to get the same answer twice. The service center ordered new parts for my set but I don't know if I want it gutted only to find out it was a software issue.

Is there a better number to call then 1-800-Hitachi, or should we ask to speak to someone specifically?

Ok, I just got off the phone with Hitachi and they said that the flicker is NOT a known issue and he was not aware if they're developing a software upgrade. I can't seem to get the same answer twice. The service center ordered new parts for my set but I don't know if I want it gutted only to find out it was a software issue.

Is there a better number to call then 1-800-Hitachi, or should we ask to speak to someone specifically?

I'm with you. I called before the rush of said calls and was told that they were unaware of this problem. :rolleyes:

Then lots of others then said they called and were told they were aware of the problem. What good is a tech support/center if they don't keep a record of issues in which to look up?

Please, keep the findings here. I already go back and forth between the "New Hitachi" thread and this one...

They are aware. Your CSR might not be. But the engineers are. I have talked to one personally. They are aware and are working it.

Please, keep the findings here. I already go back and forth between the "New Hitachi" thread and this one...

+1, i agree, keep it in 1 of the 2 threads at least.

I flip between both too.

WHen I talked to Hitachi canada, they had no idea of the problem, but then again the call taker, didnt know squat about TVs anyway.

:rolleyes:

+1, i agree, keep it in 1 of the 2 threads at least.

I flip between both too.

WHen I talked to Hitachi canada, they had no idea of the problem, but then again the call taker, didnt know squat about TVs anyway.

:rolleyes:

Which makes me wonder if they actually record our complaints. Else, they would have seen in their computer numerous complaints about contrast shifting or flickering.

Which makes me wonder if they actually record our complaints. Else, they would have seen in their computer numerous complaints about contrast shifting or flickering.


An easy to way to get to someone who knows what they are talking about is ask your CSR if he knows what ISF is. If he says no, ask "Imaging Science Foundation." Still no, nicely ask to speak to some one who does. That will filter out all the low level CSRs.

Just something you can try to get someone who knows what they are doing.

OK Guys, as promised, I put my set through its paces tonight (not so much today, during my "sick" day, as there was too much ambient light) and I have 8 pages of notes. Too late to post my findings right now, but it should be up by tomorrow. Sneak peak: some good, some bad, some still a mystery, FWIW. MUCH more later.

CD

OK Guys, as promised, I put my set through its paces tonight (not so much today, during my "sick" day, as there was too much ambient light) and I have 8 pages of notes. Too late to post my findings right now, but it should be up by tomorrow. Sneak peak: some good, some bad, some still a mystery, FWIW. MUCH more later.

CD

Ohh boy, I am in suspense. Cant wait. I still think a website should be created. ;)

Which makes me wonder if they actually record our complaints. Else, they would have seen in their computer numerous complaints about contrast shifting or flickering.

Have you called multiple times and given your info. (TV model, serial #, name, etc.)?? Typically these centers only see something pertinent to you and would only know about other numerous complaints from co-workers getting the same and talking, or a memo.

Anyway, I must have gotten real lucky then because my first call (about 2-3 weeks ago to 800-HITACHI) the lady knew exactly what I was talking about with the "flicker". She wasn't that versed or tech savvy either, according to HER. If you have called more than once and the CSR asks for your info, flat out ask them what they show under your prior calls on their computer. If nothing, you know they screwed up and didn't put it in, and I would ask for a supervisor.

If as many of us have been calling as we state, I can't imagine the whole CS dept. NOT knowing about this. Having previously worked in such a place, word usually travels quite fast if their are constant issues of the same nature happening. If Hitachi has multiple call centers, I could maybe understand, but it looks like they only have one in Chula Vista, CA from what I can tell.

Also, like Jason stated, you can bet engineering isn't talking with the CS dept. or vice versa...yet. This is where we come in. I'll call CS again tomorrow to see what's up and as Jason has done, he can continue on the engineering side. Let's not let up on this thing. :)

Very good information. I'll definately remember that next time.

Last night I was able to reproduce the flicker on a still frame from the movie War of the Worlds, which I found bizarre as the lighting was obviously constant. Sure enough it would flicker quickly up and down in contrast and/or brightness endlessly for as long as I kept that frame paused. This was a very useful discovery as it allowed me to play with the settings to see if any of them would affect it, or better yet eliminate it.

It didn't take too long to find the cure for the flicker. Yep, there is a cure, though most will probably not like it. The only setting that eliminated the flicker is contrast at 100%. No other setting had any affect at all beyond slightly masking it as you could get by adjusting contrast and brightness. The flicker itself, the rate and intensity, is unchanged. Only 100% contrast cures this problem on the 42HDS69!

Last night I was able to reproduce the flicker on a still frame from the movie War of the Worlds, which I found bizarre as the lighting was obviously constant. Sure enough it would flicker quickly up and down in contrast and/or brightness endlessly for as long as I kept that frame paused. This was a very useful discovery as it allowed me to play with the settings to see if any of them would affect it, or better yet eliminate it.

It didn't take too long to find the cure for the flicker. Yep, there is a cure, though most will probably not like it. The only setting that eliminated the flicker is contrast at 100%. No other setting had any affect at all beyond slightly masking it as you could get by adjusting contrast and brightness. The flicker itself, the rate and intensity, is unchanged. Only 100% contrast cures this problem on the 42HDS69!

:confused: I assume the pricture looks pretty horrible at that point?

Ohh boy, I am in suspense. Cant wait. I still think a website should be created. ;)
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm Puchall? Well, sincere or not, here it comes! :D

CD