title mostly says it. i originally tried the sealed enclosure route as i had never owned one. whilest it does ok, it's not going to accomplish what i want unless i have about 3-7 more of them in my living room. original sub contained a single 12" eclipse sw8200 which i ended up damaging the cone from pushing it too hard :( , my own stupidity there. sub still performs fine, just has some creases in the cone which i am going to see about replacing.

anyhow, since sealed doesnt seem to cut it in my situation a nice behemoth of an LLT seems to be a good choice. i'm looking for the concert level bass, but still want it to be able to hit the low, lows and remain clean. i'm looking at 15" and 12" drivers. i'd really like to try to keep it to one enclosure, two at most for right now. i'm thinking about going with a sonotube design (but not dead set on it) as i like the looks and would like to keep the woodworking to a minimum. also, when it comes time to move the sub(s) i'm sure i'll be thankful for the relative light weight.

the living room is 20ft x 20ft x 8ft and i already own a behringer ep2500 amp.

i'd like to keep the price of the drivers to ~$400. the price of the enclosure is irrelavent to me as i will purchase and build it as i have a few extra bucks and time.

i'd like to go with two to four 15" drivers, but that would involve multiple sonotube enclosures. what i was considering was getting some 32" diameter sonotube and placing three 12" drivers on the bottom cap as illistrated in the very rough paint shop pic below. 32" sonotube is about the biggest that i can fit through my door. this is merely an idea in attempt to have multiple drivers and keep them all contained in a single enclosure so feel free to offer other suggestions. if i have to i will find a place to put multiple enclosures if it will give me the best results.
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/untitled.jpg

i was looking at perhaps fixing my current eclipse and then getting two more (should i go with the 32" sonotube design). i was also looking into the dayton dvc series in both the 12" and 15" flavors and the same goes for the titanic series. your other suggestions are also very welcomed here.

so what do you think guys? shoot me your ideas as to what you think would work best to get that kick in the chest, make your heart skip a beat bass.

thanks
guy

Here's what I got for two Eclipse SW8200s in a 500L enclosure tuned to 14hz with an 8.15" port 32.5" long (400w per driver):

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d43/derekbannatyne/3Sw8200.gif

For three of them it would be 750L (or a 32" sonotube 21" high) with a 10" port 32.5" long. That would give you about 120db at 15hz before room gain. How does this look? oops disregard the title of the driver, I forgot to change the name to SW8200.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=681797&highlight=another+rlp

Same thing happened to me! Good luck.

i dunno. it looks good to me, but i'm still super green at this and don't interpret the graphs as well as you guys. basically, i should look at the SPLtot line graphed? all the other lines are what add up to make the SPLtot, right?

i thought the one eclipse would satisfy me and it didn't. so, i'm going to rely more on you guys this time around. would three 12's (of any brand) be enough to fill 3200cuft of space with very loud, clean bass? or should i rule them out and look at only 15's. what program are you using to make your graphs derek?

I plotted those using Unibox

Personally, I'd go with a single 15" (like the Rl-p 15", check out Nick53s thread) instead of multiple SW2800s.

id rather have two to four 15's than one, i don't think a single 15 would suffice either.

OK, at 20hz you got 98db at your seat, with the AVR at 61 and amp 1/2. So..
1 12" 98db
2 12" 104db
3 12" 107db
4 12" 110db

At 3-4" you got 118db at 20, with the same settings. Unfortunately we do not know how much boundary enforcement you are getting. You have it in a corner so it is somewhere between 9-18db. This was also not at full power so it's all guess work. You did warp the cone though, so it is safe to say you pushed past the limits. ;)
Between these numbers and my sims I would say you were getting 110db max from the driver.

Check out this site I just heard about. Fi Audio (http://www.ficaraudio.com) Look at the Q and SSD 18"s. 120db or 118db from a single driver. (If the specs are correct.)

look nice and at a very reasonable price. i would be willing to guinea pig them. i'd love to have a couple 18's pounding away.

The thing is one 18"er in a tube would give you the levels you are after. If my numbers are even a little off we are still talking about 116-9db at your seat with one 18" in your room. :D

At the SSD's price I'm tempted to sell my 15"s!

yeah, but the ssd's are cheap enough, plus i'll have to buy 12' of sonotube anyhow so why not build two. one to start with and go on and build the second enclosure then slap another sub in there a little later. if ones good, then two is better. :)

(edit) - wow, the prices are shipping included. even better. i will deffinately give these a go unless someone knows something better.

This is a good driver if you plan on EQ'ing the hell out of it and you can easily buy many of them for cheap. They are what I plan on doing my IB out of.

http://www.mach5audio.com/product_info.php?products_id=38&osCsid=b8bd9efa23e882df144cef24ecde3160

those deffinately are cheap. i could get 4 of them for the price of one fi. but, how would they compare?

It would probably have comparable output with 4 of those mach5 woofers or 2 of the Fi audio woofers with 21mm Xmax. The prices are pretty much identical too once you factor in shipping.

i could get 4 of them for the price of one fi. Don't forget the shipping cost from Canada.

Four MJ-18's in a sealed 600l enclosure will be about the same as one Q 18" in a vented 600l enclosure after you EQ the MJ-18's flat. You have to waste 10db of output above 40hz, to EQ them flat.

id rather have two to four 15's than one, i don't think a single 15 would suffice either.

I think you are underestimating what a good vented 15" sub is capable of. ;)

Two would be great though, of course.

Also, maybe I have completely forgotten how to model drivers, but the SSD18 doesn't model well at all.

Why not just get two Rl-p 15s ($250 each if you get two) and build a pair using those? The design is established and the performance is well known.

Also, maybe I have completely forgotten how to model drivers, but the SSD18 doesn't model well at all. And the RL-p15 does? It isn't that bad.

And the RL-p15 does? It isn't that bad.

Perhaps I am using incorrect parameters?

What enclosure size/tuning frequency do you believe is "optimal" for the SSD18?

It would probably have comparable output with 4 of those mach5 woofers or 2 of the Fi audio woofers with 21mm Xmax. The prices are pretty much identical too once you factor in shipping.
by "it" are you referring to the 3 eclipse? also, when i used the sonocalculator and plugged in what you mentioned, it showed me needing 62" long piece of 32" diameter sonotube. perhaps i did something wrong.


keep the recommendations coming guys. some excellent options are being presented.

willd, do you have a link for the rlp15?

willd, do you have a link for the rlp15?

Here. (http://www.soundsplinter.com/rlp_premium_series_12_and_15_inch_subwoofer.html)

RLp15 LLT is an established design. How loud you want to go will tell you how many you need. With one, it's pretty safe to say in room, from tuning till 80hz, you can get up to 113db peaks, with two 119db, with four, 125db. I wouldn't be surprised to see you get more than that, but I'm using fairly conservative estimates to get started with. Better to overshoot than undershoot.

If you aren't too concerned with low end extension or squeezing out as much sound quality as you can, I can design a more King Kong output orientated sub. If you want the extension and sq, I'd stick with the RLp15 LLT.

i want the loud output, but i think i'd be willing to sacrifice some of it for the deeper extension. that's why i went sealed originally, because i've always heard that sealed enclosure gives the most accurate bass reproduction. and whilest the sub does great, i'm just asking too much of it for it's size to fill my room with the bass levels i seek. 3 more of the eclipses would likely sound unbelievable, but also becomes somewhat expensive if i were to buy 3 more dayton enclosures and then a second amp to power them with.

(edit) - steve, you dont think the fi 18's would perform as good or better than the rpl? also, i like the idea of 125db, just depends on how much it cost to get there. :)

RL-p15's run about $270-285. I gave you the prices in the other thread. ;)

yeah, i knew that. i got it mixed up with another driver. simple brain fart.

simple brain fart. Yeah, that happens a lot. With so much going on it's hard to keep everything straight. You wanted the 8" bandpass sub, right? :D

Where can I find the parameters and pricing of the Fi 18" drivers?

http://www.ficaraudio.com/

ssd and q series are the ones that were recommended

Four MJ-18's in a sealed 600l enclosure will be about the same as one Q 18" in a vented 600l enclosure after you EQ the MJ-18's flat. You have to waste 10db of output above 40hz, to EQ them flat.

Here is a projection for my upcoming project using four of the MJ-18's (4 ohm):

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a339/asmithski/VBResponseMach5Audio18-4ohm.gif

1700 liters, 16 Hz tune, 1200 watts. This system is in a family/rec room, which serves as a billiards music system and secondary home theater -- I'm not shooting for the depths of hell with regards to output but it looks pretty dang flat to about 15 Hz. Room gain and perhaps some eq will flatten out the 20-40 Hz area nicely.

Obviously 425 liters x 4 is not for everybody, but I have a unique opportunity to blend the enclosures into cabinetry alongside and behind my RPTV, so they will not stand out as massive speaker boxes in the room.

Not too shabby output for about $300 shipped in drivers! These provide about 10 liters of Vd.

Those MJ 18's sure do look like a real bargain. :)

ssd and q series are the ones that were recommended
Hmm, parameters look pretty good, but it doesn't make mention of any special motor technology being used. With up to 28mm excursion, I'd think you'd want something other than just shorting rings - anybody know if they are using any low distortion motor technology?

anybody know if they are using any low distortion motor technology? Check Thomas' Cult forum. I found 'em there.

I can't get there from my work system.

i'm looking for the concert level bass

Are you sure? :D

i'm looking for the concert level bass

Are you sure?

My concert level bass plans are;

Eight 15" woofers playing from ~ 35hz to ~ 300hz driven by 20,000/30,000 watt proamps. {woofer array tuned high for a nice chest pounding kick}.

Then augment this array with an ordinary HT subwoofer - for HT use. lol

For concert level bass and SPL, you need to expliot the upper frequency range
if you want to play *music* cleanly and quantity + power gives you the concert level SPL
to crush human bodies.

Anything less is . weak .
i think most everyone understands what i meant. i want the loud bass, but also want the low infrasonic freqs. most, if not all, subs can play the 35hz and up range. i want the low lows too. to me, anything not able to play the low freqs is weak.

Check Thomas' Cult forum. I found 'em there.

I can't get there from my work system.
got a link for the forum?

got a link for the forum?Ask and ye shall re... well you know how it goes. IB Cult (http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi)

what about elemental designs' drivers? $250 for their 18" model. of coarse, i'm not set on 18" or 15" or any specific size driver. just whatever will give me the best bass for my ~$400 driver budget.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/index.php?cPath=21

The ED 190v.2 ?D2? in a 520l enclosure models just like the RL-p15 D2 driver in 260l, only a few db higher. As for how it compares SQ wise who knows, my guess is a notch lower.

Both at 700w. The 18" could handle several hundred more.

Again, when you start getting into excursion ranges higher than about 12mm, you're going to want a low distortion motor technology. It doesn't appear the ED uses one either. Always fun to try something new, but seeing as you're already coming off a somewhat disappointing project, I'd stick to the tried and true. Just my two cents.

how would the soundsplinter do in my current sealed enclosure? i see that they have some graphs for a 3.55cuft sealed enclosure on their site. i know i said i'd like an llt, but might be very happy with a sealed 15". just curious of your thoughts on that. or, if not the SS, perhaps a different 15". just a thought.

(edit) - nevermind, screw that. if i can get more performance out of the driver with a little more effort and money i'd rather do that.

so, any other driver recommendations other than the rlp-15, which is the winner thus far.

tc2000 15" ? it's close in price.

I'm kinda stuck b/w those drivers too. I' really like to do sealed boxes though =/,

The ED 190v.2 ?D2? in a 520l enclosure models just like the RL-p15 D2 driver in 260l, only a few db higher. As for how it compares SQ wise who knows, my guess is a notch lower.

Both at 700w. The 18" could handle several hundred more.

Hopefully when you get a chance to demo the speaker we can change that perception.

We discontinued using TC Sounds motors years ago and moved to developing our own. We used to use variations of them all in product 2+ years ago. The performance hasn't gotten worse.

Just becuase TC didn't standard a 2.5" coil motor doesn't mean it can't be done well :)

TC 2000 will give you about 1db more headroom and about 1hz extra extension in a larger enclosure - I don't know if that is worth the extra cost. As for any sound quality or distortion differences between the two units, I don't know. Nobody has done any comparisons yet.

i've probably beaten this horse to death, sorry. but how would 3 of the eclipse's compare to the rlp-15/tc sounds 15" ? i swear, i'll try to make this the last time i ask about the eclipses, but i'm impressed with this one's extension, musicality and performance (given that it's filling my 3200cuft room with respectable bass in a sealed enclosure). i feel like a broken record and i'm by no means dismissing your input and suggestions, it's just one of those things i can't get out of my mind.

It's modeling very well actually, but again, I have to ask, does it use any low distortion motor technology? Cause you'd be getting into the low 30mm excursion range with this thing. Also, how much does it cost?

It's modeling very well actually, but again, I have to ask, does it use any low distortion motor technology? Cause you'd be getting into the low 30mm excursion range with this thing. Also, how much does it cost?

Are you asking about the Eclipse SW8200 that he currently has, or one of the big 18" drivers like the Elemental Design 19Ov2.

The Eclipse uses TC Sounds' LMS technology, so it certainly has "low distortion motor tech".

Alright, thanks. norem - how much can you get two more Eclipses for?

Are you asking about the Eclipse SW8200 that he currently has, or one of the big 18" drivers like the Elemental Design 19Ov2.

The Eclipse uses TC Sounds' LMS technology, so it certainly has "low distortion motor tech".
yeah, willd beat me to it. lms technology. i can get it shipped to my door for $210 a piece. i currently have the one which i've screwed up the cone on and am in the process of seeing about replacing it or repairing it. in the end, i would have three of them.

ok, i was playing around some more with the sub last night and noticed that in the low low scenes it was continually bottoming out, even when i reduced the gain significantly. in the end, i realized that my inexperience with eq's was the culprit as to the cone damage and the continued bottoming out. i had the 31hz band set way, way to high (ummmm, maxed out). no wonder the poor thing got creases in it. pure ignorance/idiocy on my part. lesson learned though. i started playing with the eq some more and began smoothing things out. still not the spl i'm wanting, but it sounds a lot better now. especially since i don't have a super loud clank during bass scenes.

also, i'm working at learning to use roomeq to get a good flat response with this sub and future subs. i'm good all the way up to where i connect the line out to the line in on my laptop and do the "measure soundcard's response". the graphed response is nothing like it should be. around 50hz or so rather than beginning to roll off, it sky rockets upward until its literally off the chart. after reading a bit in the help files, i think it may be due to feedback. i'm using an older hp ze5170 laptop with the built in, i'm sure it's integrated and crappy, "soundcard". anyone had this same graphed result and know a fix for it.

Alright, thanks. norem - how much can you get two more Eclipses for?

Sorry I forgot to include the price. They are available for $210/each, including shipping.

Noremay - What kind of EQ device are you using? You are using a RS SPL meter too, right?

it's an older rca dimensia series 10 band graphic eq. nothing fancy by any means and i can only really use the last 3 bands (provided i set my x-over to 150hz). and yup, i have an older analog rs spl meter. (cat# 33-2050)

Three Eclipse LLTs, each in ~280 liters with a 6" diameter port that is 30" long and being powered by 500 watts looks real nice.

kaosmoon, not trying to knock'em. Just a guess based on the price difference.

noremacyug, you're running in circles again. :D i'm using an older hp ze5170 laptop with the built in, i'm sure it's integrated and crappy, "soundcard"You need a sound card with line level in and outs. Not the headphone and mic jacks. Get a SB MP3+ USB soundcard or better yet the M-Audio one with the phantom power.

noremacyug, you're running in circles again. :D
You need a sound card with line level in and outs. Not the headphone and mic jacks. Get a SB MP3+ USB soundcard or better yet the M-Audio one with the phantom power.
tell me bout it. i'm like my dog chasing her tail.

i'll look into a external soundcard then.

noremacy... was the box completely sealed when the sub was bottoming out?

i suppose, i mean it was secured into my sealed enclosure and i detected no leaks around the enclosure anywhere.

Three Eclipse LLTs, each in ~280 liters with a 6" diameter port that is 30" long and being powered by 500 watts looks real nice.
what about sticking them all in the same enclosure? i suppose it would be ~840 liters with what size port? approx 10-14"? and is the 500watts to drive all 3 drivers or is it 500watts/driver, which is what i'm guessing. i was thinking about using some 32" diameter sonotube for the enclosure, but i may build one out of mdf.

(edit) - just watched a movie and sub still bottomed out a few times. i killed the eq and just ran the sub straight off the lfe out with no altering while watching the movie. i had the sub calibrated to the rest of my speakers and wasn't running hot. there were a few deep bass scenes in the movie "eight below" (not the greatest movie, just watched it cause i'm a husky owner). what i'm getting at here is, how exactly do you guys calibrate your sub. i don't want to end up damaging the next sub i build. should i consider a rumble filter, should eq'ing it correctly elimate the problem, or do you think that the output of the next setup will be so much greater that i'll likely underdrive the sub(s).

another question popped into my head as i'm still mulling over the project in terms of driver selection. what are the requirements of a driver to delve deep in the the low's (below 20hz)? is xmax a main concern, or sheer displacement, or is it a mixture of the two? i.e.- would a high excursion 12" have pretty much the same performance as a lower excursion 15"?

In terms of SPL, the more Vd you have, the more overall SPL you can have. Vd is Xmax multiplied by Sd. And I think that the ability to go low is determined by alot of things, such as Fs, Vas, Qtc, etc.

alrighty, i've ruled out the eclipses guys. simply because i can get two 15's or two 18's for close to the same price. i'm gonna go on and go huge. so, i suppose it's down to the soundsplinter rlp-15 (two of them, likely one now and then one a few weeks later), a single soundsplinter rls-15 (prolly just one of these in which would be purchase later), two fi ssd18's, two fi q18's or one fi btl18 with all options added.

cast your vote :)

(two of them, likely one now and then one a few weeks later)

But then you wouldn't get the discount, right? I think you want that.

true, but i'd like to get one and get it built. it may surprise me and i may disregard the second one all together. i can live with losing $60, i've lost more on far more stupid things.

Word.

And yeah, you're right. A single Rl-p or TC-2000 may be [enough for you. They are proven performers.

How about let's just cross things off the list. Like these...
-one fi btl18
-single soundsplinter rls-15
-two fi ssd18's

So, now you pick.
+soundsplinter rlp-15 (two of them, likely one now and then one a few weeks later)
+two fi q18's

Word.

And yeah, you're right. A single Rl-p or TC-2000 may be [enough for you. They are proven performers.
then i suppose your vote is still for the ss or the comparible tc sounds, good deal.

How about let's just cross things off the list. Like these...
-one fi btl18
-single soundsplinter rls-15
-two fi ssd18's

So, now you pick.
+soundsplinter rlp-15 (two of them, likely one now and then one a few weeks later)
+two fi q18's
ok, good deal. the cheaper the better and personally i like the idea of two 18" fi's since they are larger and cheaper. however the expressed concerns of there sound quality at higher xmax is the only thing keeping me from snagging them up.

then i suppose your vote is still for the ss or the comparible tc sounds, good deal.


Yeah, I guess. I've heard good things about the Fi though (in terms of their owner and manufacturing techniques). I guess it depends on whether you want to try something different, or go with a proven design/driver.

Yeah, I guess. I've heard good things about the Fi though (in terms of their owner and manufacturing techniques). I guess it depends on whether you want to try something different, or go with a proven design/driver.

fantastic, i hadn't heard any kind of feedback on the fi's and that was my only major concern with them. i have no probs with trying something different and actually prefer it. i know that it's good to go with proven idea's, but i like having something other than what everyone else has.

fantastic, i hadn't heard any kind of feedback on the fi's and that was my only major concern with them. i have no probs with trying something different and actually prefer it. i know that it's good to go with proven idea's, but i like having something other than what everyone else has.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/11295-post6.html

The 18"s will required twice the space as the 15"s in an LLT. Something to think about.

Quick draw beat me to the Thomas quote.

The 18"s will required twice the space as the 15"s in an LLT. Something to think about.

Indeed.

The 18"s will required twice the space as the 15"s in an LLT. Something to think about.
yeeeeaaaahhhh................. i don't care. ha :D . the bigger the better. what diameter sonotube should i use so i can make two sub's out of one 12' piece of sonotube. i think i'm going to get just one fi, get it built and see how i like it. will i need an eq to flatten out the response of the sub like i do with my sealed?

The RL-p15 looks good with 260l per, at 14-15hz. 700w.
The Q 18" looks good with 650-700l per, at 12.5-13. 700w. (still preliminary)

will i need an eq to flatten out the response of the sub like i do with my sealed? No. It could be used to correct for room anomalies though.

will i need an eq to flatten out the response of the sub like i do with my sealed?

Not really...although you may have a few peaks/nulls, but the sub should have a fairly flat in-room FR. At least a lot of the LLTs I have heard of do.

So is it using any low distortion motor technology?

ok, i'll stick to just building one and use the money i would have used on the second sub and purchase a external sound card so i can utilize roomeq and get a behringer eq.

(edit) - or should i hold off on the eq and just build the second sub.

The purpose of the LLT is to get a flat in room FR into sub-sonic levels, without extra EQ.

The purpose of the LLT is to get a flat in room FR into sub-sonic levels, without extra EQ.
roger that, money will go towards a second sub then.

fixing to place an order unless any concerns are expressed. just getting one for now.

So is it using any low distortion motor technology?No, XBl for sure. Per the Cult anyway. Just whatever voodoo Scott can impart, this seems to be it. Details are still rolling out.

Can someone link me to these FI drivers? Are they the same as the Elemental Design drivers?

Can someone link me to these FI drivers? Fi Audio (http://www.ficaraudio.com/)
Are they the same as the Elemental Design drivers? No, different group. These are from an old RE guy who has stared up a new company. He was part of the old BluePrints run.

No, XBl for sure. Per the Cult anyway. Just whatever voodoo Scott can impart, this seems to be it. Detail are still rolling out.
is this a bad thing?

is this a bad thing? How to answer? Um... it is a plus the RL-p15 has and the Q18 D2 doesn't. Until someone pulls some measurements on a Fi we will not know the extent of the plus the SS has. There are good drivers without exotic motor designs. I'm banking on Scott's rep.

This driver is still an unknown really.

what motor structure does the titanic utilize? i know it's a recommended 15" with ~20mm xmax, it's nothing exotic is it? just using it as an example. i'll give the fi's a go and then hopefully i can provide some valuable input on them.

what brand of routers/jigs are you guys using? i can rob my dad's and use it, but i'd rather just buy one myself since, as any tool is, it's always something handy to have. also, what setup is best to create perfect circles, for both the base, caps, and the cutouts for the driver?

I wouldn't doubt the quality of the new Fi drivers. Scott and I have exchanged a few e-mails with eachother...he explained a few things about methods of decreasing distortion in drivers and Le (inductance) that were most interesting. This guy clearly knows what he is doing. If only he published inductance ratings for his drivers we'd be able to model them as accurately as possible.

It would be awesome if you did try one of these drivers, its getting boring seeing everyone use the same few drivers over and over again :p

The BTL's with the addition of the aluminum heatsink/aka shorting ring utilizes a method of inductance reduction

good deal, your wish will be answered as i am going to order one. should i get the optional flatwind coil? what is that and what will it add?

I honestly don't know. You should really e-mail scott first and ask what he recommends (if noone else replies here first) before placing your order. He responds in a timely manner ;)

These Fi drivers sure do look like my Ava 15.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a79/Amigo207/DSCN1411.jpg

ok, this is what i got in winisd with a 650l enclosure, 12.5 tuning, and 12" port at 75.94" long. does this look anywhere near correct?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/ampload.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/transferfunctionmagnitude.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/spl.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/portturbulence.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/phase.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/maximumpower.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/maxspl.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/delay.jpg
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/coneexcursion.jpg

You don't need a 12" port. An 8" is enough.

an 8" will be sufficient to keep me from hearing any, i mean zero, zilch, nada, none what-so-ever port noise? the only reason i chose a 12" was i recalled reading in the help files for winisd something about trying to keep the results on the graph below ~17 (whatever unit of meaure it is) on the port air velocity chart to keep the port noise inaudible. perhaps i misunderstood something.

do the results look correct though?

Well, to put it simply:

SteveC has a mere 8" port in his 18" Avalanche sonosub. http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=229007&postcount=2

You should not hear any port noise with yours. Also, the 17 m/s suggested limit is a tiny bit extreme.

ok, fair enough. 8" it is then. this things enclosure is going to be stupid huge. looks like with 26" diameter sono, its going to be at around 7.5ft tall. and i only have 8ft ceilings. how much distance do i need to have between the ceiling and the port? i may have to end up getting 30" diameter sono which i called and got a quote on today at around $190 i think it was.

one more thing. as i sit here looking at my eclipse's enclosure which is about a 19" cube, i'm just imagining having a driver approx that size. i'm seriously thinking that one 18"er will be enough to fill my bass needs. so, with that said, do you think i should maybe spring for the q series drivers to get a little extra xmax and power capabilities?

The options I gave were for the Q18 D2. The SSD models different. 12hz might be a bit much for it. Go with the 8" port for tuning this low, the port resonance is right on the line. A 10" will work with a higher Fb. A moderately higher port speed at sub-sonic levels is not the same as one at 22hz. With 8 foot ceilings a 6' section is the biggest I would go with. A 30" tube is really big, you might want to check one out in person first before committing. You can still get a good 550l with the 24", the tuning would go up though say 14hz.

hi Guys
I went with 2 x 18" beymer drivers for my subs.
I first used 35mm thick pinewood for the box.I went with the port size recomended.The bass was sloppy and I didnt like it.I researched and found a company called bagend.They make good subwoofers.I followed their way of thinking.Alot of car subs are similar.The box is basically square and just fits the 18" driver in and is sealed.I used 25mm thick MDF to make the 2 boxes.I brased and glued and srewed the box together.I then sprayed car sound deadoner throughout the inside of the boxes.The boxes dont reasonate like the pinewood did.I use a 2 x 250w into 8ohms NAD to power them.I used to use a DBX subharmonic bass enhancer but found using a everyday equalizer better.I got one that gave me 3-4 sliders in the range I wanted---14 band.I turned fully down all above xover.The result has been remarkable.The bass is very tight at hi levels for 18" drivers and very low where you feel the bass.I put ball castors under the boxes.The ball is hard rubber which decouples the speaker from the floor.I use proffessional 12"speakers all round with horns,So the bass has to work hard to keep up.I am extremely happy how the subs turned out now.

The options I gave were for the Q18 D2. The SSD models different. 12hz might be a bit much for it. Go with the 8" port for tuning this low, the port resonance is right on the line. A 10" will work with a higher Fb. A moderately higher port speed at sub-sonic levels is not the same as one at 22hz. With 8 foot ceilings a 6' section is the biggest I would go with. A 30" tube is really big, you might want to check one out in person first before committing. You can still get a good 550l with the 24", the tuning would go up though say 14hz.
ahhh, yeah my bad on that one. when you did the ruling out process i thought your ruled out the q series rather than the ssd. i just didn't catch that. we're on the same page now. the q looked to model a little better. i don't care about the size of the tube, so long as i can afford it and can fit it through the door. and when you say that the tuning would up 14hz, do you mean "up to" 14hz or literally rise 14hz as in 12.5hz+14hz? i suppose the former as the latter would no longer make this an llt design since it would exceed the <17hz tuning requirement.


hi Guys
I went with 2 x 18" beymer drivers for my subs.
I first used 35mm thick pinewood for the box.I went with the port size recomended.The bass was sloppy and I didnt like it.I researched and found a company called bagend.They make good subwoofers.I followed their way of thinking.Alot of car subs are similar.The box is basically square and just fits the 18" driver in and is sealed.I used 25mm thick MDF to make the .........
ummmm, when i put "so please chime in" in my thread title, i didn't mean about anything that pops in your head. i see no relavence to this thread, but i'm glad you are happy with your sub.

and when you say that the tuning would up 14hz, do you mean "up to" 14hz or literally rise 14hz as in 12.5hz+14hz? I meant a tuning of 14hz instead of 12.5hz.

The SSD looses 2db to the Q, and has a slight hump before it rolls off to the the bass shelf. The SSD will work in a smaller enclosure. You seemed to have dropped the ~$400 bit. That is why I crossed off the SSD. :D

As someone who has rippled a high excursion 12" TCish driver I believe it is going to take a lot to satisfy you.

Don't get in a hurry this time. Wait for a few more people to chime in. What's another week or two? ;)

i figured you meant 14hz rather than 26.5hz as that would knock it out of being an llt design. as for getting in a hurry, i'm not entirely in a hurry but i happen to have some time to myself here for a bit and would like to make some headway on this project before i get back to working and not having much time. i think one of the q18's will meet my bass demands so that will keep me under the $400 budget, but if it doesnt then of coarse a second one will push me over, but no biggie there.

well, i went out and bought a 12' section of 30" sonotube today. i think i'm going to go for the 700l enclosure and should still have enough left over to build a second if i want. talk about a bear to get in the door. phew!!!, i had to wrestle this thing in by myself, it was rough but i ended up winning. :)

so i was wondering, whats the best method to mark/cut the sonotube to make a good, square cut. i think i'll be able to use one end as it looks like it was cut good but i'll have to double check it. i plan on simply spraying the sonotube with the bedliner stuff as i think it'll and some extra rigidity to it and make it more durable when it comes time to squeeze it back out the door when i move.

also, what methods are you guys using to make perfect circles for the caps and base? router with a jig or what?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/sonotube.jpg

Cool Husky.

I had one when I was younger, but he died of kidney failure at a young age (5 years old). :(


Not sure about cutting the sonosub. Usually it is done at the place where you bought it from. They have a machine/tool for making precise cuts with it.

thanks, yeah she'll be a year old on 9/11.

i asked them about cutting it and they said they didn't have anything to cut it. i'm thinking a jigsaw. but i still am trying to think of a good way to mark it and get it good and square.

lay out a chalk line on the ground exactly 90 degrees from the tube then roll teh tube over it while the line stays taught and true

lay out a chalk line on the ground exactly 90 degrees from the tube then roll teh tube over it while the line stays taught and true
that sounds like that would be a pain in the arse to due. especially to keep the tube rolling straight and true.

i was thinking of simply measuring up from the end xx" in a bunch of spots all the way around the tube and then going back to "connect the dots" to create a line around the tube. i was just hoping that a more tried and true method had been discovered.

i was thinking of simply measuring up from the end xx" in a bunch of spots all the way around the tube and then going back to "connect the dots" to create a line around the tube. i was just hoping that a more tried and true method had been discovered.
That's how I did mines. I connected the dots with paper scotch tape. It requires a lil sanding after the cut. Sound like a fun project for you. Hope everything goes smooth.

Al,

i plan on simply spraying the sonotube with the bedliner stuff
I don't think it's a good idea to spray paint it since it's basically paper. I use speaker carpet on mines. It looks pretty good.

Al,

Take a long piece of paper that's maybe 2" thick and wrap it around the tube - line the two flat ends of the paper up perfectly and you'll know it is level. Then just trace the paper. I would recommend not using spray liner either, a fabric sock is much easier and you won't risk weakening the tube.

What final design have you decided on going with?

good deal, thanks. unless someone mentions a better method i suppose that will be the way i go.

hmmm. ok, i'll give the paper idea a go. gotta find some long paper first though. a sock huh, alrighty, that's fine with me. where did you get your sock at? i'm gonna guinea pig the fi audio Q18 driver. just try out one and see what it does and then go back for seconds if i need more output.

a 650l-700l enclosure tuned to 12.5hz was recommended. a 8" port was also recommended. whats your thoughts on this steve? do you have any port noise at all with your sub? you use an 8" port, correct?

a 650l-700l enclosure tuned to 12.5hz was recommended. That was not finalized. Just a preliminary run. It needs to be gone over a little better.

You can completely ignore this post, but I like ~660 effective liters, tuned to 13.5Hz, with a 8" port, ~25.9" long.

I used the Dual 2 Q18 T/S parameters, and assumed you would be running it off a single channel on your EP2500.

So that would be roughly a ~62" piece of your sonotube.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c199/wadeere/q18.gif

ok, i'll model some of these recommendations myself and see if i can make any sense of them.

so do dvd's only contain freq's down to 10hz and nothing below?

I like Willd's enclosure. Here are two to choose from. Maybe Steve will pop in.
The key
speaker- size- Fb- power Xmax over Fb-Xmax at 10hz Port res.
I used 700w because he already has the EP2500.
One gives you 1db more SPL at 15hz, the other more lowend protection.
Steve where are ya?

(the black should be pink, oops)

so do dvd's only contain freq's down to 10hz and nothing below? They can contain content all the way to 1hz. 3hz seems to be as low as most go though.

I'm here :)

If you're set on this driver, I'd take a look at 600 effective liters with an 8" diameter port that is 28" long and 750 watts (one EP2500 channel). Again though, I'd personally be a bit hesitant with 27mm and no mention of a low distortion motor technology. I'd almost have to think that with that much excursion it HAS to be using one, but then again, at the same time, if they were using one, you'd think they'd be more than happy to mention it several times on their site. I dunno. If it does use one, this driver looks to be a great deal.

One thing to keep in mind when modeling with REALLY low tunes is that the real world tune will almost always come in a bit lower than what the simulations predict. So like with a modeled 12.5hz tune, it may very come out to be 11hz.

Here is the new gif with Steve's added.

EDIT: Added 11hz for giggles.

ok, thanks guys. i'll plug these in and check them out. i want the added spl in the lower extensions.

so do i need some sort of protection for the driver to keep it from getting damaged in the low scenes? i don't wanna rip it to shreds.

(edit) - steve, i just emailed fi audio and asked about the use of a low distortion motor.

so do i need some sort of protection for the driver to keep it from getting damaged in the low scenes? i don't wanna rip it to shreds
Using two of these, unless you purposefully set out with the goal of trying to damage the sub - single digit sine waves, volume levels above reference with single digit material, etc. - I wouldn't worry about it. You should be capable of 119db peaks with solid extension down to 11hz in room, potentially lower.

Looking at your picture, your speakers will give up and and say uncle well before these kinds of levels anyway (not a knock on your speakers), and you probably won't come close to taxing this pair of subs at any point in time.

well i'm only building one sub, so should i protect it somehow since it won't have reinforcement of a second. i may end up building a second, i'm waiting to see what this one will do.

and as for my mains, they are to be the next upgrade on my list. looking at jbl's northridge e series.

Here are a couple of graphs that show simulated excurtion and SPL at different power levels. Using Steve's enclosure. This should show you that over-excursion will not be a problem at except at extremely insane levels at realy low freq., in a very smal freq. range. This is a model of only one sub, so add 6db to everything for two. ;)

The last graph is your Eclipse sub for reference. :D Remember all graphs are for only one speaker.

Even with one, you will be fine. I figured since you were willing to build three Eclipse subs you were gonna build two of these, but it doesn't matter.

yeah initially i was. but after looking at my current 19" cube enclosure and then realizing that i'd be using a driver almost as big as the front of my enclosure, reality set in. i figured i'd try one and see what i got.

Here are a couple of graphs that show simulated excurtion and SPL at different power levels. Using Steve's enclosure. This should show you that over-excursion will not be a problem at except at extremely insane levels at realy low freq., in a very smal freq. range. This is a model of only one sub, so add 6db to everything for two. ;)

The last graph is your Eclipse sub for reference. :D Remember all graphs are for only one speaker.
ha, yeah i was comparing my eclipse to the q18 myself. HUGE difference :D . personally i like the idea of the 700l enclosure and even the 11hz tuning which looked to have an approx +10db@10hz over the other designs. i'm willing to give a little to get a little more down low.

(edit) - my graphs don't look exactly like yours. this is what i got for three different setups.

The 11hz bit was for $h!t$ and giggles. You don't want to use it. This is a MONSTER at 13.5hzhave an approx +10db@10hz over the other designs Try 2db, and it isn't worth it. Nothing but pressure that low, and if you are good to 15hz you are still going to get the pressure. Now if you want to make a switchable top with 11hz and 13.5hz options go right ahead. Just let us know which was better. :D

Since you are forging ahead with this, here is a pretty good Tube Sub calculator. SonoSub Calc (http://www.quux.net/roo/diy/sonosub/sonocalc.html)

hmm, i don't know what i'm doing wrong then. i input all the t/s parameters as the winisd help file recommended doing. so you like steves 600l enclosure idea then?

thanks for the calc, i already have that one bookmarked.

i very well may make a top with swapable inserts to try out different ports. just depends on how creative i am when the time comes.

i also contacted elemental designs about cnc'ing out my caps for me. they responded saying that they would do it and i'm currently waiting on a quote. depending on how $$$ it is i may have them make some perfect circles for me.

hmm, i don't know what i'm doing wrong then. i input all the t/s parameters as the winisd help file recommended doing. so you like steves 600l enclosure idea then? Here is a pic of my parameters in WinISD. This driver also has a high Le so there will be a 1-2db peak at 50hz that these graphs will not show, just so you know. 80hz crossover tops. ;)

It's Steve's baby. If you look at the graph I posted earlier again you will see there is a very small difference between the two. Steve also said the sims are a little off at these huge sizes so you will probably end up at a real 12.5hz with the 13.5hz tuning.

I haven't finished mine yet, so I have zero real world experience at these extremes. Other than IB anyway. ;) Though I am working on remedying this shortcoming.

EDIT: Don't use the Max SPL graph, use SPL in WinISD.

heck, i dunno. i put the parameters in like winisd said to but i had a few variances from what you had.

anyhow, it doesn't entirely matter except for my wanting to know how to use the program properly.

looks like the tube will be cut to approx 56".

looks like the tube will be cut to approx 56". That looks about right for 600l net, in Steve's design. :)

Two layer .75" top
Three layer .75" bottom
Driver recessed a full .75"
???

What are you going to line the inside of the tube with?

i didn't bother with the driver recess option. whats the purpose of that? the rest is correct though, just some .75" mdf for everything. also, i just estimated the driver volume at 400 which may be too much. it was just a guess.

The driver displacement is 414 cu in. Good guess.

The recess option is used for when use want the driver to be flush with the top of the wood. You put two .75" plugs in the bottom, and use a third with a 18.5" hole to surround the driver. Or measure the frame of the driver and route out the third piece by that much. Like the pic next to the calc, only with two layers in the tube.

wow, i was actually close on the driver volume. self high five. :)

i have no need or desire to have it recessed unless there is some particular advantage to doing so, just looks like more un-needed wood/work to me.

It's just cosmetic. You're good.

Two layers of 3/4" MDF will cut it for 20" and 22" diameter sonosubs, but for 30", I would HIGHLY recommend you use (at least) three layers for both the bottom and top caps. Sonosubs don't need bracing like boxes, but they still need to maintain a rigid cylindrical shape, and the only thing that allows them to do that is the end caps, so don't skimp.

I thought he was using three? I read wrong.
I had three on the brain. :D
Three definitely, the MDF will sag over time. :(

ok, point taken. three it shall be. ok, upon measuring the i.d. of the sonotube in order to give e-designs the requirements i have two different diameters. 776mm and then 756mm perpendicular to that. would not the medium (or perhaps the mean, i can't remember the correct term) of the two be the actual diameter. 766mm being the actual diameter?

better method of finding a perfect diameter? or should it be a perfect 30". 766mm is a tad over 30".

wow, got a timely response from fi audio. here's the reply in it's entirity. what do you decipher from it, should i still proceed with a q18?

Guy,

Thanks for the product inquiry.
We do not use any low distortion motor technology in any of our Q series
drivers (or other subwoofers for that matter). I am very well versed in
several of the motor and coil designs and have used them in a variety of OEM
as well as personally owned company applications. While they do have
several advantages, they also have their disadvantages as well.
The Q series has 26mm of Xmax with a fairly mellow parabolic curve to it.
While not ruler flat like some of the other technologies, the Q does still
have motor control after its 26mm of Xmax, where several of the other
designs simply stop having control after they have reached their limits. We
also do not employ the use of any inductance shorting rings either. It
would take a 4+mm thick piece of copper or 6+mm thick piece of aluminum to
even begin to attack inductance at any frequencies that you would use a
subwoofer in (and neither would fit inbetween the magnet and coil inside the
motor). Simply sticking a thin sleeve into the motor does nothing at
useable frequencies, although it does make a strong marketing point. We
have simply trimmed as much fat off both the subs and company so that we can
offer quality custom handbuilt drivers at great shipped prices.

Please let me know if I can answer anything else.

Thanks and have a good weekend,
Scott
Fi Car Audio

Scott has been doing this for awhile now. I trust his work. Is the Q18 as good at 20mm as the RL-p15? Who knows. I do know that you can get 110db levels from the Q18 with under 12mm of xmax. You should only be able to notice the difference at +113db levels. Did you notice how awful the eclipse was sounding as you were deforming the cone on it?

If you are having doubts, now would be the time to change gears.

nah, i don't have any real doubts. simply because in my case ignorance is bliss and i get to have a big honkin 18" driver. ha. i'll give it a go.

as to the eclipse, dear good grief did it ever sound like it was gonna explode when it bottomed out. it literally clanks, sounded like metal on metal, very unpleasant. i'll have to try to take a pic of the cone so you guys can see just how bad it looks. i've put some horrible creases in it. if i can't get it replaced, i'll either leave it as is and use it in my much, much smaller, second "game room" with the crest to power it. or i'll get a dayton dvc 15 or something and still use it in the second system.

so, should my sonotube have an exact i.d. of 30"? also, should i oversize the plugs, by say a 1/32", to get a good airtight fit?

lastly, steve (or anyone else who knows) where did you get your sonotube sock from. have to sew it up yourself?

as to the eclipse, dear good grief did it ever sound like it was gonna explode when it bottomed out. LOL

I meant right before it bottomed. :D It would have been distorting like crazy. You know, right before you bumped the volume up the last time.

About the i.d., it will be around 30". Can you cut a piece off, and give that to ED?

The sock is all on you. ;)

well, when it bottomed out on me it was always in a movie and snuck up on me. no chance for me to hear the distortion, just CLANK CLANK CLANK!!! and me hitting the volume button as fast as my fingers would go. but when i was testing it to post up some results i did hear it slightly begin to distort then as i pushed it further and further. i suppose i could cut off a piece, but then i'd have to ship them that piece. i just told them a plug diameter of 30 1/32". if it's too big i'll sand it down as needed.

hmmm, i could have my mom do some sewing for me as she's an interior decorator. but i may give the spray on bedliner a try. steve was worried about it weakening the sonotube. so i could try it out on a practice piece before spraying it all to see what the results were. i dunno, i'll cross that bridge when i get there i suppose.

well, when it bottomed out on me it was always in a movie and snuck up on me. no chance for me to hear the distortion, just CLANK CLANK CLANK!!! and me hitting the volume button as fast as my fingers would go. Been there. :rolleyes: i suppose i could cut off a piece, but then i'd have to ship them that piece. I thought they might be local.

oh no, i was referring to elemental designs. http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/index.php

I don't see how the spray-on bedliner could weaken the tube...

i think he was afraid of the moisture from it breaking down the cardboard, thus weakening it. i suppose it's possible, if you absolutely soaked it. but even then doesnt that bedliner turn pretty hard when it dries. i was thinking that it would likely help to make the tube even more rigid.

I thought that Sonotube had a wax coating of some sort. Eitherway, Sonotube claims that their forms are rain resistant. A thin coating of bed-liner would dry fairly quickly, hardly exposing the sonosub to much moisture.

only wax coated on the inside, where the concrete comes in contact with the form. plus, this is not sonotube brand. it is kolumn form (created by caraustar) and i imagine that most concrete suppliers don't carry sonotube but rather a different brand. i don't know how well this particular brand i have will deal with moisture. i asked the guys i purchased it from about it getting wet and they said i should keep it dry.

If you have the good stuff it has a moisture barrier on the inside and outside.

If you do try the bedliner you will want to spray paint it black first. It doesn't coat like a paint. As it dries it contracts a little, and spots will show through everywhere. You can't spot coat either and get a consistent texture, when it dries you can tell where you had to recoat. There will be different texture, which shows up worse than you think. I have some pics somewhere that show this if you want to see them. You have to cover everything again. With a surface area that big trust me, spray it black first then add the liner.

i may just look at doing a sock. i'll likely have to disassemble the sub anyhow in the event i move it. so then i could easily slide the sock off it.

We do not use any low distortion motor technology in any of our Q series
drivers (or other subwoofers for that matter). I am very well versed in
several of the motor and coil designs and have used them in a variety of OEM
as well as personally owned company applications. While they do have
several advantages, they also have their disadvantages as well.
The Q series has 26mm of Xmax with a fairly mellow parabolic curve to it.
While not ruler flat like some of the other technologies, the Q does still
have motor control after its 26mm of Xmax, where several of the other
designs simply stop having control after they have reached their limits. We
also do not employ the use of any inductance shorting rings either

Ehh, I dunno man, I'm sure Scott knows his stuff, but this is kinda like a red warning flag to me. Without any low distortion motor technology or even shorting rings, based on all the data I have been exposed to over the past couple of years, I'd imagine pretty high distortion levels above ~12mm cone movement.

Again, with you coming off a disappointment, I'd stick to a tried and true design as opposed to being the first person to try something new.

any other quality 18" subs that i could consider?

Until the 18" Rl-p from SS or the 18" TC-2000 from TC Sounds comes out (which wont be anytime soon, afaik), not that I know of.

Hey Noremcyus did you order the Q18? I just order the Q15 Friday. Scott is doing a custom dual 4Ohm for me. I have 2 sonotube kicker comp15 in a 8.2cu.ft. tuned to 15hz.....but they bottom out to fast. I was going to get a TC 2000 15" but didn't like the 3Ohm and i was going to get a Rl-p 15 but everyone have it. I want something different.

The 3ohm would be pretty close to 4ohm when you hook it up to an amp. FYI

Hey Noremcyus did you order the Q18? I just order the Q15 Friday. Scott is doing a custom dual 4Ohm for me. I have 2 sonotube kicker comp15 in a 8.2cu.ft. tuned to 15hz.....but they bottom out to fast. I was going to get a TC 2000 15" but didn't like the 3Ohm and i was going to get a Rl-p 15 but everyone have it. I want something different.
nah, i haven't ordered it just yet. i want to try something different myself and really would like to go the 18" route, but i'm worried about it distorting.

ok guys, don't laugh me out of the forums here, this is just another silly idea that i thought i'd at least mention.

due to the concern on the q18 and my looking for an alternative i came up with another cornball idea. :) i have 30" sonotube and i want to make the most of it. i am only going to have room in my living room for one super large sub. i don't really have a place for a second one. so, i want to stuff that enclosure with as much bass as i can. the options i have in terms of fitting drivers on the 30" plugs are...

-one 18" driver - 254.34 sq inches
-three 12" drivers - 339.12 sq inches
-four 10" drivers - 314 sq inches
seven 8" drivers - 351.68 sq inches

now, i didn't take into account the actual cone surface, i just used simple numbers like 18, 12, 10 and 8 which would include the surrounds, but you get the idea. anyhow, the seven 8 inch drivers look to make the most of the alloted area of the 30" plug. the seven 8" drivers have almost the same area as two 15" drivers (two 15" = 353.25 sq inches).

sooo, i just thought i'd mention this idea as it has considerably more area than a single 18", however i know that the xmax will likely be less which i assume equates to less air that is able to be moved. these are the only 8" drivers (which have 12mm xmax) that caught my interest if i was to take this approach. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-833&scqty=7 seven of them is $328+shipping.

just another looney idea guys. proceed to put this newb in his place. :)

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n7/noremacyug/seveneights.jpg

Wow....you're really getting out there now :eek:

How about one 15" driver and one 6" port on each baffle?

Wow....you're really getting out there now :eek:

How about one 15" driver and one 6" port on each baffle?
haha, i thought about that too. but i dont like the idea of a driver on top exposed to whatever may decide to fall onto it. likely nothing would ever happen, but i like having the driver(s) on the bottom where they are a bit more protected.

would the eights not be effective? they make the most effective use (in terms of filling the space) of the available 706.5 sq inches of the bottom plug.

also, heres a more complete spec sheet for the tb. http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w8-1363sa.htm

(edit) - on second thought steve, i could live with a 15" on top. heck, my 12" eclipse is far more susceptable to damage sitting where it is. so, lets say two 15's or two 18's. your thoughts on two of the mach5 18's as they are very cheap in terms of price.

Yeah but the 8" drivers only have 12mm of Xmax, so it would be even less output than the single 18" driver

haha, i thought about that too. but i dont like the idea of a driver on top exposed to whatever may decide to fall onto it. likely nothing would ever happen, but i like having the driver(s) on the bottom where they are a bit more protected.
I have to ask, why were you so quick to buy 30" tube then? :o

Yeah but the 8" drivers only have 12mm of Xmax, so it would be even less output than the single 18" driver
that's what i was thinking/wondering about, but wasn't for sure. didn't know how many it would take to catch back up to the single 18". so sheer area doesn't necessary equal better. i figured it was a silly idea.

there are no stupid questions, only stupid people. ha :o

I have to ask, why were you so quick to buy 30" tube then? :o
plans were/are for the 18" (or a 15"). i want to keep height down as i only have 8ft ceilings. i'm happy with the tube and want to go big. i've reconsidered the idea of driver(s) on top since i realized that my current eclipse is far more susceptable to damage sitting where it is. especially being front firing and all, it just begs to accidently be kicked in or damaged by my dog or small child, or even me tripping and hitting it somehow. so a driver on the top is completely acceptable.

Hey Noremcyus did you order the Q18? I just order the Q15 Friday. Scott is doing a custom dual 4Ohm for me. I have 2 sonotube kicker comp15 in a 8.2cu.ft. tuned to 15hz.....but they bottom out to fast. I was going to get a TC 2000 15" but didn't like the 3Ohm and i was going to get a Rl-p 15 but everyone have it. I want something different.
please let me know your thoughts on the q15. i'm going to place my driver selection on hold until i find out more about fi's drivers. building the enclosure is the hard and time consuming part, slapping a driver in is nothing. i can see about getting the pluggs and caps built and then cut the sonotube and driver holes later.

I order it Friday morning...it takes 2-3 days to build it. It might not ship till Wednesday. I'm in Texas and he in Las Vegas, Nevada.....it want be here till next Tuesday. It takes 4 days to ship to Texas. As soon as I get it. I will pop it in and see what it will do and post back here.

much appreciated sir. do you have the ability to take some pics of it as well?

No problem. I might build a bigger sonotube from 8.2 cu.ft to 10 cu.ft.. Right now i'll be pushing 280w rms on it. It will be sometime in January befor I can buy a real amp to really push it.

noremacyug. It looks like I will have to Q15 tomorrow after work. I email Scott to see how it was going and he reply with..... (The sub was actually sent out to you on Friday of last week (We got it done the same day). So I will have pic's tomorrow for you....and hopefully hook it up and do some testing. Right on time for the weekend. :D

good deal man. i hope ya like it and it does well. lemme know and thanks.

Well it just got here. Here some pic's.

http://home.austin.rr.com/soloxp/images/pic/IMG_5667.jpg

http://home.austin.rr.com/soloxp/images/pic/IMG_5668.jpg

http://home.austin.rr.com/soloxp/images/pic/IMG_5669.jpg

http://home.austin.rr.com/soloxp/images/pic/IMG_5670.jpg

http://home.austin.rr.com/soloxp/images/pic/IMG_5671.jpg

http://home.austin.rr.com/soloxp/images/pic/IMG_5672.jpg

looks like it's built well. now get that sucker hooked up and let us know how it sounds! :)

All I can say is WOW. The deep bass is very clean....and most of all, it didn't bottom out at all. I should have got the Q18. This Q15 is ALSOME. Don't forget I got a custom dual 4Ohm. I want to build a new sonotube with 24" diameter...right now it's 18"diameter. I thinking about 24x48=355.839 liters tuned it to 14hz.

good deal, glad you are liking the results. got a few Q's though.

-what's the volume of your room?
-what's the distance to your listening position?
-are you corner loading the sub?
-do you have a spl meter to take some db readings?
-what kind of media have you run through the sub?

can't think of any others right now.

All I can say is WOW. The deep bass is very clean....and most of all, it didn't bottom out at all. I should have got the Q18. This Q15 is ALSOME. Don't forget I got a custom dual 4Ohm. I want to build a new sonotube with 24" diameter...right now it's 18"diameter. I thinking about 24x48=355.839 liters tuned it to 14hz.

What customizations were done to your driver? Looks awesome.

nor, have you finalized your design plans yet? Sticking with that 3ft^3 box?

3cuft enclosure? i am looking to replace the driver in my current enclosure so i can use it in a second system. i think kyle is going to cover that for me though which is awesome. but aside from that, i'm going with an llt. i have a 12' section of 30" sonotube sittin in my living room right now. :)

i haven't chosen the driver yet. it's a running between the Q18, rlp-15, or a tc2000 15". and i'm even considering putting back a smidge more money and just getting two of whichever driver i choose to make sure that i have more than enough bass to fill my room and future rooms. put a driver on top and one on bottom of the enclosure as steve c suggested.

i contacted elemental designs and they have quoted me a price of around $325 shipped for cnc'ing out my top and bottom plugs and caps and the base. i'm not sure i'f i'm going to go through with that yet or not as that's a chunk of change for some very simple cutting which does not include rounded off edges on anything, no cut out for the port or the drivers. only reason i was looking at it is because it's less work on me and it would be able to provide a airtight seal. if i could find a jig that is capable of a 30" cut, then i would likely go that route and do it myself for a lot less plus i would get some new tools!! :)

for $325 you could buy a nice router, and enough extra MDF (for when you screw up, if you screw up) to end caps/plugs, and still have $$$ left over.

noremacyug
1.Living room is open to the dinning room and part of the kitchen. It's BIG.
2.About 11ft.
3.yes about 1ft from the wall.
4.No. I don't cure about spl. I just like low clean bass that you can feel.
5.The Incredibles,Star Wars #1,Titan A.E.,Final Destination 2 and did some 12-25hz test tunes.

Exocer

1.Instead of dual 1ohm or 2ohm, I have dual 4ohm
2.No. I'm thinking about doing a 24x48 sonotube at 14hz...but right now it's 8.2cu.ft.

for $325 you could buy a nice router, and enough extra MDF (for when you screw up, if you screw up) to end caps/plugs, and still have $$$ left over.
yeah, i figured i could spend that money a little better if i put out a bit more effort. any jigs you know of that would cut up to 30" or over a bit. i plan on buying the jasper set from PE which iirc only goes up to 18" diameter.

any router recommendations, i'm not looking for the best but i dont want a piece of crap either.

soloxp- thanks for the replies/pics. i still dunno. i suppose i could try out the fi's and then if they don't work out i could yank the plugs/caps out of the tube. then make some new plugs/caps and drop in a couple tc's or SS and go the proven route.

For the larger diameter stuff, just make your own jig. There are plenty of tutorials for such a thing (they don't look that difficult).

Check this thread for a router recommendation:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=667720

yeah, i skimmed through that thread a few mins ago. i just thought i'd see if you had a good recomendation off the top of your head.

(edit)- found a woodhaven 3260 circle jig on amazon for $109. cuts 2"-45" diameter circles. looks nice, i'd say i'll drop the jasper jigs and just purchase this (unless i find something better) when the time comes.

soloxp- thanks for the replies/pics. i still dunno. i suppose i could try out the fi's and then if they don't work out i could yank the plugs/caps out of the tube. then make some new plugs/caps and drop in a couple tc's or SS and go the proven route.[/QUOTE]

I never heard the TC's or the SS....but I can tell you, you will be happy with the Q18. I have a PE plate amp on the Q15 right now thats 280w at 4ohm and 180w at 8ohm. My sub been dual 4ohm I have to run it at 8ohm to the amp cause i was going to get 2 of them. 1 later and run them 4ohm. but 1 put out a lost of low bass for me. So each 4ohm is just getting about 90w right now and it still sound d@mn good. No distortion.

I never heard the TC's or the SS....but I can tell you, you will be happy with the Q18. I have a PE plate amp on the Q15 right now thats 280w at 4ohm and 180w at 8ohm. My sub been dual 4ohm I have to run it at 8ohm to the amp cause i was going to get 2 of them. 1 later and run them 4ohm. but 1 put out a lost of low bass for me. So each 4ohm is just getting about 90w right now and it still sound d@mn good. No distortion.

soloxp, I'm in the order the driver stage right this minute. I've got 24" x 78" sonotube sitting in the corner of the room reserving it's spot (we've be redecorating the room lately). SteveC & WillyD have helped me a bunch to come up with a 24"x48" with a TC-2000SVC tuned to 14Hz. From everything I've learned lately, that is a safe formula for a really good sonosub.

But I'm intrigued by the Q18, although, SteveC has a little "reservation recommending that driver due to possible excursion-related distortion". I think you have just put me in a holding pattern, until I see more info coming back from you early adopters.

Kevin

soloxp, I'm in the order the driver stage right this minute. I've got 24" x 78" sonotube sitting in the corner of the room reserving it's spot (we've be redecorating the room lately). SteveC & WillyD have helped me a bunch to come up with a 24"x48" with a TC-2000SVC tuned to 14Hz. From everything I've learned lately, that is a safe formula for a really good sonosub.

But I'm intrigued by the Q18, although, SteveC has a little "reservation recommending that driver due to possible excursion-related distortion". I think you have just put me in a holding pattern, until I see more info coming back from you early adopters.

Kevin

That would be closer to 15Hz on the tc2k tuning, but yeah. :)

ok guys, here's an update on the project as well as which direction i think i'm going to head.

my current dead eclipse is going to be resurected thanks to kyle. he's hooking me up with a new upper assembly, so this driver will be like brand spankin new. he's also offered me a competetively priced deal on two more of the eclipses which i seriously think i am going to take. i can snag two more eclipses for less than two q18's, rlp-15's, or tc2000 15's and i feel like the three elipses would rival any two of the afformentioned drivers. anyhow, i think this is the route i will go since i know that the driver is well built, they have ridiculously GREAT customer service (via tcsounds, eclipses customer service sucked), and the price is good imo. any expressed concerns on persuing this route?

what is your volume and tuning recommendations? i want to try to see if i can fit all three drivers as well as three 6" ports on the bottom so that i can make the overall enclosure taller, thus allowing more volume. i roughed it out at a ~900l enclosure w/ ~12hz tuning. but in order to obtain 900l that will make my tube around 7ft long, i think it was. by the time i add another 6"-8" on there for the caps, base and height of legs i'll be very close to my 8ft ceiling. so, that's why i was wanting to place everything on bottom if possible. that is, unless porting it on top, which would have it very close to the ceiling, would yeild no negative effects. i suppose it would be about the same difference as if it were only 4"-5" away from the bottom base.

anyhow, please shoot me your recommendations/concerns as i think this is the way i'll be going.

I wouldn't say three 12"s could best those two 15"s or 18"s, but they will be very nice. :D

I would see if you could get the exact T/S specs from TCS, that way you will know that the sims are dead on. You want accurate numbers when dealing with a ported enclosure. ;)

That would be my first step anyway. :p

Yeah, what Soho said.

Actually those three Eclipse's will move 11.4 liters of air compared to 8.1l of the dual RL-p15s

Just thinking aloud here...

Ep2500- bridged with three drivers in series, lets say 250-300w tops a piece.
The sweep area is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1 to 1 with the dual RL-p15s when amp limited in this way.
A 12hz tuning is a bit low, try 14-15hz
700l is a big as I would go. A 65" long tube. Plenty of room up top, and down below.

:rolleyes: :D
EDIT: For clarity.

I knew I had mentioned an Eclipse LLT somewhere - thought I was going nuts :)

Three Eclipse LLTs, each in ~280 liters with a 6" diameter port that is 30" long and being powered by 500 watts looks real nice.

is there no alternatives to wiring them in series? would wiring two in parrallel and one in series after the two work or would that feed defferent amounts of power to the drivers? it just seems that out of 2400watts i should be able to push more than 250-300/driver. even if i wired two in parallel on one channel and then the third on the other channel by itself.


steves recommendation was pretty close to what i had modeled. if i'm understanding winisd right, the three eclipses didn't beat out the two Q18's but they looked to be close enough. i can't remember the exact results compared to the other driver pairs except that they were close as well.

here's the specs kyle gave me.....

Qts 0.6
Fs 17
Res 2.82 ohms
Le ~1
Cms 460
Mms 220g
Bl 10.1
Spl 81.8

would wiring two in parrallel and one in series after the two work or would that feed defferent amounts of power to the drivers? The drivers would see different power levels.

Remember you are still getting 120db levels with 300w/per. ;)
Also the Re you just posted is lower than what I was using lets say a nominal 280-330w using it. This is only an estimate.

update on the project guys. i just purchased a dewalt dw625 router and a circle jig for it that is capable of ~50" circles. also, i have decided to go with the 3 eclipses and will also be purchasing a second ep2500 so that all three drivers can have ~1200watts delivered to them rather than say ~300-400.

so, should i go with steve's enclosure rcommendations or does any fine tuning need to be done? just wanting to know as i plan on cutting the sonotube here before too long and once i do there's no going back.

(edit) - also, could someone recommend some quality router bits. thanks.

anyone?

Oh ye of little faith. If you're planning on using all three in one sub, first off, good luck (840 effective liters), and second, better make that baffle extremely thick.

well, i would do two of the 18's, but a singular enclosure would have to be too big. i know you've probably told me before, but what would be the approx volume required for two tc 2000's 15's or rlp's in one enclosure?

(edit) - whats the downside in the 3 eclipse design?

I wouldn't really call it a downside, but your construction is just gonna be difficult. 840 effective liters means at least 900 raw liters. Your top cap should be four layers thick (one outside) and your bottom cap maybe five. Each TC 2000 would want ~320 effective liters and a 6" diameter port.

would performance be pretty close with one another? i get the 3 eclipses nudging out the tc's and providing a more linear response in winisd, that is unless i'm doing something wrong.

I agree with SteveC, construction is gonna be a PITA. Stick with the three 12"s though, no sense changing again.

With a tube of that diameter, do not use MDF around the drivers. Make the baffle at least 1.5" thick, then cut rings of MDF for the plug area. I would say at least three deep on the bottom and two on the top, with a few pushed into the middle so when an idiot friend tries to prop up on it it will not immediately cave in. ;) There will be a lot of mass up top remember.

Two 6" ports ~20" long for 14hz or ~30" for 12.5hz. (In the 900l gross enclosure)

and will also be purchasing a second ep2500 so that all three drivers can have ~1200watts delivered to them rather than say ~300-400. Trust me, try it out with one amp first. Check the excursion graph at 300w and then at 1200w. If SPL is all you're after shrink it down tune to 18hz and build a 3rd order highpass at 19hz. :D

I agree with Soho concerning the amp.

You will most likely get all of the output you need with the one amp you already have.

So you are looking at a 30"x78" tube for 900l.
You have an 8' ceiling, so 96" minus 78" equals 18". Now lets say you use 1.5" top cap and bottom plates, and a 6" driver gap. That puts us at a hight of 88.5". That leaves 7.5" for a port exhaust up top, plenty of room. :)

The question now becomes whether you can erect this monster with only 7.5" to spare? Who's going to do the math to see how much clearance a 30" dia cylinder needs in order to be tipped over? ;) :D

How's it coming, man?

So you are looking at a 30"x78" tube for 900l.
You have an 8' ceiling, so 96" minus 78" equals 18". Now lets say you use 1.5" top cap and bottom plates, and a 6" driver gap. That puts us at a hight of 88.5". That leaves 7.5" for a port exhaust up top, plenty of room. :)

The question now becomes whether you can erect this monster with only 7.5" to spare? Who's going to do the math to see how much clearance a 30" dia cylinder needs in order to be tipped over? ;) :D
Yeah, I've been reading this entire thread waiting for that shoe to drop...

Without any overhang, and taking into account the ~3/8 wall thickness of HD sonotube, we have:

96^2 = (30-3/4)^2 + X^2

where the X is the maximum height tube that can be stood up in a 96" room. So, this works out to:

9216 = 945.5 + X^2
X^2 = 9216 - 945.5 = 8270.5
X = 90.9" = Maximum overall height

Of course, any overhang of top/bottom plates is going to make this worse.

That's taller than I was guestimating... :cool:

Has this project went forward or has it been canceled or changed?

-Tom A.