Thanks everyone here on helping me earlier on in almost building dual sonotub subs. I know it would have rocked but Im going with an IB design.

I have been on the "IB Cult" forum and Thomas there is incredible for helping people but I still like this forum better because of the "traffic" it gets and Im a paying member :D.

First project, Im going to be installing a IB into my ceiling in my family room....12 foot ceiling, the Sub will be 2 feet off the left wall placed center over the TV (and center channel)

I have not decided on 4 15" TC2000s ( I own 2 already) or 4 Mach5 18" (I own those too).

Here are some pics to start....


House plans......

http://www.penngray.com/house/house.gif


Design choices from other IB DIY projects......

Cube....4 woofers.

http://www.penngray.com/house/4speakercub.jpg


Rectangle...4 woofers.

http://www.penngray.com/house/4speakerrectangle.jpg

Pictures of the family room will come later, I need to resize them first.

Im building the box tomorrow so I need to decide which is better to build.

The Cube?? or the Rectangle?

The room (as per the house plan) is around 21x36x12 with an opening to the dining room and enterance. Its big but I dont need a monster system.

I will have a HT room for the best sound.

This is the cover for it....

aluminum 36x24 wall vent, that will be mounted in the ceiling.

http://www.penngray.com/house/ceilinggrill.gif

I don't know that much about it, but I would think that 1. The cube would be better (since you're not overlapping the rear wave...though I don't know how much that really matters) and 2. That you'd be better off with a different cover...something with some sort of fabric wrapped around a frame and installed over the gap. I'm not sure if the metal grate would affect the sound...but it might start making some of its own (rattling, etc.) when you turn up the juice.

Hopefully people who have done IBs before can chime in, though.

WAF is very important and tHe aluminum vent seem to please her the most. Yes, I must make sure it wont rattle.

I could not find a big enough grill. I would love to have a BIG in-ceiling/in-wall speaker grill but no luck.

The cube would be better (since you're not overlapping the rear wave...though I don't know how much that really matters)

I dont think rear waves matter at all in IB...People build arrays 6 Woofers long and place them vertical in walls


The opening needs to be a certain size and the rectangle gives me that while the cube doesnt. How much difference though is something I dont understand at all because I dont understand "bandpass" stuff at all. The cube on the other hand gives the best WAF so if the trade off isnt much then I would build the cube (its more compacted and easier).

I thought I had read that somewhere...but you're probably right about the rear waves...I just wanted someone to chime in on it so you didn't feel like you were talking to yourself ;)

As for speaker grille...that should be easy to make. Simple wooden frame with some grille material wrapped and attached. That should be the easiest part of the project, I would think.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-334

there's some white grille material.

Go with a rectangle that has the mouth outlet area at least equal to the combined Sd of the drivers...that way there will be no compromises as to the manifold's sound quality.

I don't have time to calculate that right now as I need to get my a** out of the house and to a job, but I don't think the cube quite gets you there.

Aaron thanks!

No the cube doesnt get me there but it does have a better WAF ;)

I just dont know how much of a difference there is.....Been researching a third mounting option now!! I can never make up my mind..Im worse then my wife on this damn DIY project. :eek: This one seems to be the easiest build yet....no box :D

Like this one but instead of 2 it will be four woofers across.
http://www.penngray.com/house/subarray.jpg



This grill over each with cloth on it.

http://www.penngray.com/house/metalgrills.jpg

Here is the location where Im going to install the IB array....

http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_LOCATION1.JPG

Here is the 78x22 1 1/2" thick MDF board, Its a total of 4 48x24 MDF boards...cut and glued to specs.


http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_MDF_GLUED2.JPG

Here is the starting of the holes and my home made circle Jig.....

http://www.penngray.com/house/ROUTER_HOLES.JPG

Finished Array ready to be installed.

I just moved the IB array to the house this morning, will find out if it fits tonight. I mounted 2x4s to each side of it for more strength and so I can then screw the 2x4s into my ceiling trusses spreading the load of it accross all 80". My builder and I think we will also build some other supports into it when its in the attic.

http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_array_in_garage.JPG

Here is the family room ceiling where the 4 speaker array will be blasting through before I cut it all up :D

http://www.penngray.com/house/family_room_ceiling.JPG

The ceiling would look much better with those subs in there... ;)

Keep the pictures coming...

Best,
Mark

Looks AWESOME. Same idea I am planning on for my HT with the Mach 5 drivers.

Mark, thanks again for the incredible value you got on the 18" drivers.

I gotta tip my hat to you guys for being able to GET AWAY with something like this. No matter what was said, I just couldn't convince the wife this was the way to go.

*BUT*

I did talk her into a line array using 12 MAW-12's for the livingroom... :D

Best,
Mark

I gotta tip my hat to you guys for being able to GET AWAY with something like this. No matter what was said, I just couldn't convince the wife this was the way to go.

*BUT*

I did talk her into a line array using 12 MAW-12's for the livingroom... :D

Best,
Mark

The conversation went something like this: "The boys get the theater and garage, you can get all the other rooms in the house."

The conversation went something like this: "The boys get the theater and garage, you can get all the other rooms in the house."

Penngray, great pics.

My deal was to redo the kitchen with granite countertops and tile floors, and update the bathrooms. The wife had little to say when the HT started taking over the family room. :rolleyes:

Ha! You guys obviously aren't married to the 'Big M'.

The WAF thing was a big issue actually but I convinced her so far that it would look just like a big vent :D If it looks like crap to her, its gone but I get a chance to prove it works. The best thing going for me right now is that the house is not finished yet so I have options.


The real HT room will be designed in December.

Same idea I am planning on for my HT with the Mach 5 drivers.

Mark, thanks again for the incredible value you got on the 18" drivers.


I just posted in your thread, I am using the MJ18s unless they suck then its on to Q18s :D I had them shipped to my canadian address and my parents are coming to visit in two weeks, good thing they have a minivan.

My HT room will have 2 or 4 15" TC2000s

I just posted in your thread, I am using the MJ18s unless they suck then its on to Q18s :D I had them shipped to my canadian address and my parents are coming to visit in two weeks, good thing they have a minivan.

My HT room will have 2 or 4 15" TC2000s

4x 15" TC-2000s......mmmmmmmm. :D

4 only if I go with an IB solution for the HT room. I love the look of just two but four in an array along the bottom of my 105" screen would be pretty sweeeeeet :D

Where did you find those cool looking grill covers at?

Which ones? Which post?

This one:

http://www.penngray.com/house/metalgrills.jpg

raxxess speaker grill 18 inch, you can just google it.

That was an option for me but now Im going with a custom wood frame built into the ceiling and speaker cloth.

No pictures and no picnic today.......

moving an 90+ lbs or what ever 4 MDF 3/4" 48x24 boards weight in an attic is a pain the ass. Heck getting it up into my attic was hard enough (needed help there) but since a person can stand only on the 2x4 trusses in the attic its a one man job once in the attic. Small people need not apply here ;)

I will have to do more tomorrow really early, I didnt get it in the place I want so I can cut the ceiling holes, the heat in the attic during the day in Florida is pretty incredible.

I just posted in your thread, I am using the MJ18s unless they suck then its on to Q18s :D I had them shipped to my canadian address and my parents are coming to visit in two weeks, good thing they have a minivan.

My HT room will have 2 or 4 15" TC2000s


Well, they aren't TC's but they aren't sucky either.. :o

I go on spending sprees, just to keep up with the wife :D The MJ18s are a huge value so if they sound even remotely good they are worth it but I can not get past the 6.8 Liters of displacement of the Q18s vs 2.46 Liters for the MJ18s!!! thats 27.2 vs 9.8 liters of displacement.

Displacement is one of those values I can understand and therefore it becomes important to me ;) Something about wanting to shake my house always pops into my head :eek:

I waited for some sunlight this morning and went back over to the new house to fit that IB array board into the trusses.

After cutting off the ends of those 2x4s which I dont know why I left them long!! :( and ripping out 5 staples for a electrical cord I was able to shimmy and fit that board into the trusses!! :D :D Man its not a one man job.

Sadly, I have to take it back down and finish off routing it so I can recess the drivers. First I will mark where the holes will be and cut them this weekend. Messy, Messy crap!!



Here are some pics.......
http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_array_snug_fit2.JPG

http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_array_snug_fit1.JPG

btw, its not that light up there (light from flash). Its actually pretty dark so it was harder to see what things blocked me all the time.

Spent the last day design and testing my IB array ceiling cover frame theories.

Sorry no pics yet....

I have built two 3/4" thick wood frames 38x24 each that I will try and stretch white speaker material over tightly to make speaker grill that I will mount into the ceiling.

This is trial and error because I dont know what its going to really look like in the end.

I need to iron the speaker cloth first because its wrinkled right now then I need to make sure I can wrap it tightly. Never done that before so who knows.

I will post pictures later

Spent the last day design and testing my IB array ceiling cover frame theories.

Sorry no pics yet....

I have built two 3/4" thick wood frames 38x24 each that I will try and stretch white speaker material over tightly to make speaker grill that I will mount into the ceiling.

This is trial and error because I dont know what its going to really look like in the end.

I need to iron the speaker cloth first because its wrinkled right now then I need to make sure I can wrap it tightly. Never done that before so who knows.

I will post pictures later

You might want to get some velcro to attach the frame to the IB face.

Also, how do the 18"s handle during high excursion?

I can not get past the 6.8 Liters of displacement of the Q18s vs 2.46 Liters for the MJ18s!!! thats 27.2 vs 9.8 liters of displacement.
Buy more MJ's then... Duh... :p

My builder and I think we will also build some other supports into it when its in the attic. I agree. The main reason people use manifolds is for mechanical force cancellation. That many drivers all pointing the same direction will really want to shake your ceiling. You got several pounds moving a couple of inches. That's bad for the sound - the ceiling doesn't move much but the radiating area is huge. It's also bad for the structure of the house - it will want to shake the drywall off the ceiling. So, have the builder beef up the structure around the IB so it doesn't move much when you walk/jump on it.

This is my biggest fear so I will be re-inforcing them. lol, shaking the whole house sounds cool :D but I know its bad :(

Also, how do the 18"s handle during high excursion?

I wont know that for probably two weeks still.

You might want to get some velcro to attach the frame to the IB face.


Thanks for the idea, I used speaker pegs so far but they didnt work out to well today. I will next go with velcro. Once the speaker grills are in place Im going to have the builder get trim professional done around them to make them look like part of the room.

Left the Camera at the house so no pictures. Tomorrow Im cutting the ceiling holes.

So, have the builder beef up the structure around the IB so it doesn't move much when you walk/jump on it.


Im 240 lbs, I dont know if jump around anything is a good idea :D

I just posted in your thread, I am using the MJ18s unless they suck then its on to Q18s :D I had them shipped to my canadian address and my parents are coming to visit in two weeks, good thing they have a minivan.

My HT room will have 2 or 4 15" TC2000s
Is there an existing thread telling of where these wonderful drivers can be purchased?

www.mach5audio.com

The are currently sold out though....http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=display&thread=1158882405

Dexx, You can buy mine and I will just upgrade immediately to the Q18s :D

penn...keep those pics coming!! ;)

this is exciting. :)

will do......

hehe, I was up there is morning. I go early mornings when its not 120 degrees up there. Im 6' 3" so its not the easiest place to work for me but my ceiling is huge (could fit another floor easily) so I can stand up everywhere excepts for when I have to crawl under vents. I was able to cut all 4 holes pretty easy. Now its time to decide how to cover the holes. 4 individual speaker grills or 2 38" long rectangular speaker frames with speaker cloth. I should know tonight...Wife will decide

I did some non-scientific structural testing, I was bouncing pretty hard up and down on the trusses where the IB will sit. Im 240 so when I bounce things should start shaking.....well nothing really shook at all, very surprising but it shouldnt be because I think the trusses are engineered to try and withstand hurricane force winds here in florida.

I will still reinforce the trusses some more once the IB is installed.

will do......

hehe, I was up there is morning. I go early mornings when its not 120 degrees up there. Im 6' 3" so its not the easiest place to work for me but my ceiling is huge (could fit another floor easily) so I can stand up everywhere excepts for when I have to crawl under vents. I was able to cut all 4 holes pretty easy. Now its time to decide how to cover the holes. 4 individual speaker grills or 2 38" long rectangular speaker frames with speaker cloth. I should know tonight...Wife will decide

I did some non-scientific structural testing, I was bouncing pretty hard up and down on the trusses where the IB will sit. Im 240 so when I bounce things should start shaking.....well nothing really shook at all, very surprising but it shouldnt be because I think the trusses are engineered to try and withstand hurricane force winds here in florida.

I will still reinforce the trusses some more once the IB is installed.

Oh man, I never knew you were in Florida! Please tell me you are in South Florida cause there is like no IB installs in South Florida to listen to.

Oh man, I never knew you were in Florida! Please tell me you are in South Florida cause there is like no IB installs in South Florida to listen to.
my thoughts exactly!!! :eek:

party at Penn's house!! http://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_rock_band.gif http://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_party.gif http://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_banana.gif

Sorry Northern Florida, Gainesville!

But still there is a party at my new house when its finished :D Its only 5+ hours away from you ;)

btw, I think Frapper shows a IB in Orlando (maybe?)

Progress report.....

4 holes cut out this morning....

http://www.penngray.com/house/speakerholesinceiling.JPG



The framed speaker cover plan wasnt succesful. It just looked to crappy. I didnt even take a picture of the speaker cloth pulled over the frame because I was too disappointed. It was tightly pulled over and fit nicely but the overall look of it in the ceiling was ugly.

Here are the frames I attempted.....
http://www.penngray.com/house/speakercoverframes.JPG

Switching gears, I decided to paint the 18" speaker grills white and mount them to each hole separately. Maybe that will look good..

Speaker grills painted white....
http://www.penngray.com/house/paintedGrills.JPG


Speaker grill in ceiling.....

http://www.penngray.com/house/SpeakerGrillinCeiling.JPG

The black rubber band around it could be painted white too but I think it looks good. My wife will look at it tonight and give the approval.

I'd paint the band, for sure.

Edit: Still looks good though. Man, what a sweet setup that'll be for the living room.

Those grills are no good... You should have gotten these grills. :D

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=263-166&dotd=092506

lmao!!

Can I get an 18" one :D

Up in Canada on a Business trip...its killing me not being able to work on this little project :(

But I did get to look at my 4 MJ18s to make sure all is good with them.....they definitely are very plain and boring looking, nothing like my TC2000s.

I will be able to mount and wire them next week so the first test will happen then. It will sound probably crappy since I have concrete floors until the hardwood is laid in late October.

To drive them I have an EP2500 I just won off of ebay....1200W per channel for 2 ohms is good enough :D I just need to figure out how Im going to wire the 4 MJ18s....Im sure I will wire 2 of them per channel. Expert advice here is always welcome! :D

To drive them I have an EP2500 I just won off of ebay....1200W per channel for 2 ohms is good enough :D I just need to figure out how Im going to wire the 4 MJ18s....Im sure I will wire 2 of them per channel. Expert advice here is always welcome! :D

You got the wiring right. There was a link from one of those car audio sites that gives wiring diagrams.

It would be 4ohms for each channel (Since the MJ18's are 8ohms each)

Wow, that first pic you posted looks familiar, wait that’s my IB!

Anyway I know its to late but for any others wanting to know I thought I would say that the cube vs. the rectangle is a utility issue not a sound quality thing. If you have 24” spacing on the ceiling joists like I have then you can do the cube with large drivers, if you have the standard 16” spacing you have no choice but to do the rectangle as you wont have enough room to do a cube. I like the cube idea because I could make the manifold as small as possible with the biggest opening, which is what you want. Line arrays are said to be a slight bit better SQ because of more radiating surface area but as mentioned the mechanical vibration can be a problem depending on how and where you mount them. Personally I cant imagine anything sounding or performing better then the 4-18 Avalanche array I have in a manifold and even with 1400 watts pumping into them the amp will run out of gas before the drivers even strain at all, I think they have more in them yet.

Good luck with your project, I know you will be pleased.

Yes, thanks for contributing your picks! :D

I cant imagine anything sounding or performing better then the 4-18 Avalanche array I have in a manifold

Oh, I believe that! They must be awesome. I think the whole SQ issue between Array and manifold is more theory then anything else. For me SQ is completely subjective anyways. We all hear different things, Im sure the difference isnt all that much BUT the difference between my IB and anything any friend of mine has will be INCREDIBLE. The other choice now for the Array design is that I love seeing 4 18" drivers up there :D

Those grills are no good... You should have gotten these grills. :D

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=263-166&dotd=092506

LOL, don't forget the neon. :)

Just curious, why did the grills you tried to make look bad? How did the wife like the waffle grills? Another thought would be to completely remove all the drywall where the wholes are as one big complete rectangle, trim the edges, and build a frame like you built before but out of relatively thin material (roughly the same thickness as the drywall, and same dimensions as the rectangle you removed), cover it with grill cloth, then attach the completed rectangular grill where the removed drywall was, such that the grill is flush with the drywall. That would probably produce the least obtrusive look.

Penngray are you the same guy as over at 123 running Rocket 760s? It will be very interesting to hear how your IB marries up with your Rockets. I have a set of 750s. We might be designing and building a new home also and am thinking about IB. Is it true that an IB will produce the best sq. Also isnt 4 drivers overkill, as I was thinking maybe 2 RLPs or 2000s. I currently have an RLP-15 sono which I love but waf is not helping me.
I was thinking about a great room wall backed up to a walkin closet. Could I turn a walkin closet into an IB. Does one have to figure volume and such of the closet and how would the sound in the closet and master be? Not deafing I hope. Anyway just a few questions didnt mean to hijack thread. Thanks Keith

Nick - From everything I have heard, IB definitely produces excellent SQ. I believe IB owners would argue that it is the best, but I am not sure.

This is what the CIB FAQ says:

4) How many drivers should I use?

This is a difficult question to answer accurately given the variables involved. To error on the side of safety, we recommend using at least double or more the Sd of that needed by a box sub used in the same room. In a small room 2-15"s should be adequate. For larger spaces or for high output, multiple 12"s, 15"s or even 18"s are desirable. People should understand the IB bass is much different than the bass from a standard 'box/tube' sub. Because of that, we recommend use of more drivers than one would normally associate with a 'normal' box sub. Please note, the primary function of using significantly more drivers is to maintain extremely low distortion and protect the drivers, not to create insanely high SPLs.

Willd thanks. Great info and why sq could be enhanced by maintaining low distortion which was what I was thinking. Looks like I would need to consider 4 drivers also. Does closet volume get weighed into the design?

You cant do an IB in a closet, thats just a large sealed enclosure, an IB needs 10 times the total Vas of the drivers, no closet is that big.

You cant do an IB in a closet, thats just a large sealed enclosure, an IB needs 10 times the total Vas of the drivers, no closet is that big.
Ohhhhhhhhhh well thanks. Seemed like such a good idea, maybe I will have to stick to the concept of a large built in dual ported sub.

Can your closet vent into your attic or something like that? Mike Knapp over a Hometheatertalk did that and it worked out good for him. Just thought I would bring it up. :)

EDIT: I shouldnt use the word vent. What he did was cut the ceiling out of his closet. :D

Can your closet vent into your attic or something like that? Mike Knapp over a Hometheatertalk did that and it worked out good for him. Just thought I would bring it up. :)

EDIT: I shouldnt use the word vent. What he did was cut the ceiling out of his closet. :D
Thanks good option. I am still looking at the closet IB since it will be a large walk in closet and an open door to master. Would the open door concept work as well?

Penngray are you the same guy as over at 123 running Rocket 760s? It will be very interesting to hear how your IB marries up with your Rockets. I have a set of 750s. We might be designing and building a new home also and am thinking about IB. Is it true that an IB will produce the best sq. Also isnt 4 drivers overkill, as I was thinking maybe 2 RLPs or 2000s. I currently have an RLP-15 sono which I love but waf is not helping me.
I was thinking about a great room wall backed up to a walkin closet. Could I turn a walkin closet into an IB. Does one have to figure volume and such of the closet and how would the sound in the closet and master be? Not deafing I hope. Anyway just a few questions didnt mean to hijack thread. Thanks Keith

Nick, I do have the 760s but they are for my HT room to be done after I move in. I have 2 TC-2000s just sitting in boxes waiting for that room, might get two more and build a 2nd IB for that room. IMO I believe that any good sub will match any good speakers.

This IB project is for the family room. I do have a cheap (HT-100) sub for the family room with okay Klipsch RB81s. I didnt really care about that room to tell you the truth but I was inspired by IB designs. I will upgrade the bookshelf speakers next.
Go here for the best IB info IB Forum (http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi)



Just curious, why did the grills you tried to make look bad? How did the wife like the waffle grills? Another thought would be to completely remove all the drywall where the wholes are as one big complete rectangle, trim the edges, and build a frame like you built before but out of relatively thin material (roughly the same thickness as the drywall, and same dimensions as the rectangle you removed), cover it with grill cloth, then attach the completed rectangular grill where the removed drywall was, such that the grill is flush with the drywall. That would probably produce the least obtrusive look.

The speaker cloth, wooden frame and everything just didnt look clean and professional enough. I was design what you explained too but one of the problem is that it does stick out more. The measurements for the rectangular grill would be 78" by 22", its very long and the grill cloth looked completely out of place in the ceiling.

I'm back from my business trips, the 4 MJ18s will be here tomorrow and I will be installing the 4 grills and painting them.

More pics coming tomorrow night.

I have delayed this project for a couple of weeks so I can deal with all the other very important DIY stuff before my house is finished.

I should get back to installing my 18s by next week. They are sitting at the house and I need to make sure they fit. I have to make sure the surround doesnt hit the wood...its going to be close.

looking good..can't wait to see it done..

I built a grill myself that turned out pretty darn good.. I just cut a frame out of mdf, then mitered 3/4 inch 1/4 round on top..

I have delayed this project for a couple of weeks so I can deal with all the other very important DIY stuff before my house is finished.

I should get back to installing my 18s by next week. They are sitting at the house and I need to make sure they fit. I have to make sure the surround doesnt hit the wood...its going to be close.

You are going to be amazed at the way it energizes the room. Project looks good.Can't wait to hear your review of how it sounds.

I know it will be awesome...even more so for me since I never have had a great Sub period. The BIC H100 is my point of reference :D

I just wish I could get working on it again...they have been painting again at the house so I cant do anything this week. I did place one of the 18" on the IB array board and it fit so nicely, that was a huge accomplishment. The surround on the driver is not touching the routed hole so no interference will happen. More pics soon....

Next week, I have to finish off mounting the board to the trusses with many, many wood screws. Im going to also brace the trusses by running 3 10 foot 2x4s perpendicular so that any vibration will be spread across 8 trusses.

So, you'll be going from a single 12" to four 18's. That will be a change.

I finished off screwing in the IB board to the trusses and I also added the extra braces that run perpendicular to the trusses...

Here are the pics...

http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_braces3.JPG

http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_braces2.JPG

http://www.penngray.com/house/IB_braces1.JPG

Here are 2 of the 4 q18s....

http://www.penngray.com/house/WALL_UNIT_WITH_2_Q18S.JPG

here is the painted Wall Unit because its such a cool part of the room!! No one will ever notice the 4 IBs in the ceiling above it when they see the that and a 60" sony A2000 ;)

http://www.penngray.com/house/HUGE_WALLUNIT_PAINTED.JPG

I will try and get all 4 18s mounted and screwed in tonight or tomorrow and then get the grills back on so I can see the finished product finally.

Those Q18s look like solid drivers, penngray. You made a good choice.

Penn, I am envious of your room. I wish I had that kind of ceiling height to work with!

Good god man how high is your celing? The guys in the picture look like midgets & that is one massive wall unit.

12 foot ceilings in that room....the wall unit is 18x10.

12 foot ceilings in that room....the wall unit is 18x10.

No wonder, man thats big. Lookin good though :cool:

So, you'll be going from a single 12" to four 18's. That will be a change.

Yep, both me and penn are coming from a single 12" woofer.

Of course he has TONS more displacement compared to my puny 4 x MJ18 IB. Of course, four eighteen inch drivers may not sound puny to you, everything is relative! :p

Penn, I can't wait to see some numbers from REW!

Yep, both me and penn are coming from a single 12" woofer.

Of course he has TONS more displacement compared to my puny 4 x MJ18 IB. Of course, four eighteen inch drivers may not sound puny to you, everything is relative! :p

Penn, I can't wait to see some numbers from REW!


Whats the X-Max on those MJ18's?

Xmax: 27mm

my Q18 specs are

Re 2.8 Ohms
Fs 22.0 Hz
Qms 5.44
Qes .56
Qts .51
Mms 345
Cms 1.52X10^-4 m/N
Vas 310.2 l
SD 1210 cm^2
Bl 15.41
SPL 89.6 1W/1m


and displacement per driver is 0.24 cuft or I think 6.8 Liters

everything is relative!

Cracky, you are so right...I had those 18s you have (obviously) but I "found" an extra $1000 to upgrade even before I tried the MJ18s.

We both will be very happy, you for just over $300 and me for around $1100 :D (not including amps)

Xmax: 27mm

my Q18 specs are

Re 2.8 Ohms
Fs 22.0 Hz
Qms 5.44
Qes .56
Qts .51
Mms 345
Cms 1.52X10^-4 m/N
Vas 310.2 l
SD 1210 cm^2
Bl 15.41
SPL 89.6 1W/1m


and displacement per driver is 0.24 cuft or I think 6.8 Liters


That’s incredible close to the Avalanche drivers, only the Q is a bit lower on the Avalanche though. I wonder if these are knock-offs?

Where do you get these drivers from and how much are they?

ficaraudio.com Q18s

That’s incredible close to the Avalanche drivers, only the Q is a bit lower on the Avalanche though. I wonder if these are knock-offs?

Where do you get these drivers from and how much are they?

No, they are not "knock-offs". The similarity in T/S parameters is coincidence. The Avalanches use a different motor tech too. (XBL^2).

www.ficaraudio.com

The Q18s are $309 shipped.

only the Q is a bit lower on the Avalanche though.

Yeah, Scott from ficaraudio lowered the Q on my set for me. The company and their products are actually designed for car audio but with a few mods they should be good for HT.

Yeah, Scott from ficaraudio lowered the Q on my set for me. The company and their products are actually designed for car audio but with a few mods they should be good for HT.


Smart move lowering the Q, they should do well in an IB.

nice! those Q's look pretty decent for the price!! Avalanche 18" knockoffs FTW!!

i'm still drooling over that LMS5400 18" though :o

since the Re is 2.8 Ohms,

how do I wire these 4 into my EP2500 amp?

each pair wired in parallel is 1.4 Ohms, can I connect each pair to a channel (1200w@2 Ohms). Is 1.4 Ohms too low?

since the Re is 2.8 Ohms,

how do I wire these 4 into my EP2500 amp?

each pair wired in parallel is 1.4 Ohms, can I connect each pair to a channel (1200w@2 Ohms). Is 1.4 Ohms too low?

Re is not the nominal impedance of the speaker, it's the DC resistance of the coil, Re is lower than Z...according to the specs you posted, you ordered the dual 2ohm versions. So i would wire the VC's on each speaker in series to give 4ohm (2+2), and the wire each pair of speakers in series to get 8ohm per channel(4+4).

lol, I did have that question for scott at ficaraudio. I was waiting for an answer on it but got impatient.

Thanks

you ordered the dual 2ohm versions.

Actually, I now remember they are custom and they are single coil 4 ohms. I was waiting for confirmation but in my excitement this early morning I saw the Ohms number and convinced myself that was the number :D

Try doing a series parallel configuration as well and do a listening test, I think you find that the lower resistance might match the gain of your mains better. I did it both ways on my Avalanche quad and the difference was night and day, the 2 ohm config was a far better match then any other config I tried. In the 8 ohm config I couldn’t get near enough gain to the subs to match the mains.

Thanks, I think my original goal when I ordered everything was to get 2 Ohms per pair. Im still waiting for confirmation on what the driver ohms are just to be sure.

Im wired up now....its been pretty busy with everything else so I finall found time to finish the wiring. Scott from ficaraudio.com gave me the wiring schema so that I could have a total of 4 ohms going into my 2400W bridged EP2500 amp.

http://www.penngray.com/house/4%20IB%20subs%20mono%20amp%20setup%204%20Ohm%20load.JPG


How does it sound..........

I turned it on for the first time this afternoon and I kept it low for a bit to make sure the subs all work, I wanted to also loosen them up a bit before I cranked it even so they sounded awesome. Low tight bass!!!

I havent EQed anything, the floors are concrete still and the room is pretty empty so obviously I wasnt expecting much just yet. I did crank it a little bit and all the sub contractors at house were amazed by it, gotta love the expression on their faces :D

I had to leave it alone the rest of the afternoon since I have too much work at home. :(

Cant wait to make it better because even now it sounds pretty incredible.

Excellent, post your impressions once you get a chance to do a extended listening test.

Ah yes, it's always good fun when a new IB builder has their first "holy crap!" experience...... ;)

Thomas, you have been a great help. Thanks for answering my really dumb questions!!

I need to now solve what Im covering the holes with or maybe just frame around them. The metal speaker grills are still an option but Im still in DIY mode and I might use a Router next weekend to get round frames frames built. Definitely need a circle jig for that....hmmm.....I wonder if I can get one in 3 days.

also, once I move in (2 or 3 weeks from now). I will need to learn how to use a SPL and the BFD to tweak everything.

anyone want to fly into Gainesville? Catch a Gator game, play some golf and setup my system ;)

Thomas, you have been a great help. Thanks for answering my really dumb questions!! Just wait till you get the bill...... :eek:

BTW, I can walk you through setting up and using the BFD in a very short time. It's not nearly as complicated as some would have you believe.... ;)

It's not nearly as complicated as some would have you believe

lol, nothing is really complicated I just make everything complicated ;)

Thanks, I wont be doing anything again for the next 2 1/2 weeks since I have a home automation system to now get working. When I move in to the new house I get back to working on the perfect IB!

Wow, its been awhile for me!

New house was a complete pain in the ass to finish and with work, travel and oh yeah....adopting a beautiful baby girl I never got back to getting my final results.

but now I have been playing around the last couple of days. Things have been wired for weeks but I never tweeked anything.

My biggest problem is the hum in my subs :( I dont remember hearing this when I first connected them but its there and its there if I connect directly from the pre-sub out to the EP2500.

I have connected through the BFD DSP1124P, the hum still exists. I dont have a clue how to use the BFD so not sure if it can even remove the hum.

I do have a ART Clean Box that I used also and that simply increases the loudness of the hum so it leads me to believe that the hum is from my receiver.

I moved all power cables as much as I can away from speaker wires/cables etc.

I dont know what to do next.

(posted on IB forum, I know Thomas will respond there but I like to have lots of suggestions).

That sounds like a ground loop hum. I believe that one fix (besides removing the ground on your amp, which is not recommended) is to run a wire from the chassis of your EP2500 to your receiver chassis.

Just an idea.

wire as in lamp cord? or anything similar.

wire as in lamp cord? or anything similar.

Yeah.

Thomas over at IB Cult suggested a cheater plug and it solved the problem.

I cant believe a $.69 plug from Home Depot solved my hum.

Thomas over at IB Cult suggested a cheater plug and it solved the problem.

I cant believe a $.69 plug from Home Depot solved my hum.

Yep, removing the ground works as well.

My 2500 did the same thing. Same fix.

New Years Eve was a great success with the IB-array...minus the fact that my EP2500 amp would trip my UPS or any power strip I had. I had to plug it into the wall.

It was simply awesome and chest thumping.....

here are some more pics

final Speaker grill solution
http://www.penngray.com/house/AV%20project/speaker_grill.JPG


http://www.penngray.com/house/AV%20project/speaker_grill_1.JPG

SPeaker Grill trim

http://www.penngray.com/house/AV%20project/speaker_grill_trim.JPG

Speaker grill in ceiling

http://www.penngray.com/house/AV%20project/speaker_grill_2.JPG





First DIY Sub project is deemed a success!!!!!

Finished IB array

http://www.penngray.com/house/AV%20project/completed_IB_Array2.JPG


Family Room AV, amp for sub is in the bottom cabinet on the left, power and wires are run to it behind the unit)

http://www.penngray.com/house/AV%20project/finished_wallunit_2.JPG

Total project cost, wood and everything was I think around $1600.

4 x 18" Fi Car Audio Qs
EP2500 amp
MDF/2x4s/sheets of plywood/Flex-mound for trim around the speaker grills/Grill cloth.

Fantastic!

Total project cost, wood and everything was I think around $1600.

4 x 18" Fi Car Audio Qs
EP2500 amp
MDF/2x4s/sheets of plywood/Flex-mound for trim around the speaker grills/Grill cloth.

Where did you get the "Flex-mound"? That looks like a good way to hide the edges of a grill, any grill.

Chuck

Nice neat looking install.The word stealth comes to mind, you can't see but its lethal.

I found several different types of flex mold. You can order most through home depot but the one I liked the most was from trimster.com. They will create any sort of custom "flex mold". It was pricy though, it ended up being $6/ft. In the end it was the best solution for me because it just finishes it up very nicely.

Stealth is true....Lots of people from the New Years eve party didnt notice them at all until I bragged and pointed them out. Its nice that we have 12 ft ceilings in that room.

I found several different types of flex mold. You can order most through home depot but the one I liked the most was from trimster.com. They will create any sort of custom "flex mold". It was pricy though, it ended up being $6/ft. In the end it was the best solution for me because it just finishes it up very nicely.

Stealth is true....Lots of people from the New Years eve party didnt notice them at all until I bragged and pointed them out. Its nice that we have 12 ft ceilings in that room.

Damn, you shouldn't have told them anything... next time just have some really low frequency <30hz pink noise playing at reference level and tell your guests your house is possessed.

Very nice installation. Congratulations.

I will be doing something similar with 2 Ficar Audio Q 18's. I have been going back and forth between the array and the manifold. I like the array config best because it would be easier to build, has a coolness factor, and you dont need to worry about the manifold gasket opening size. I also hear its slightly more efficient.

My installation would span the engineered trusses in the opposite direction as yours instead of fitting between them. I am thinking that i could span 3 of the 24" trusses with the wooden Arrary for strenght and put the 2 18's in between them without using any type of additional bracing. I would make the array out of 2 3/4" pieces of plywood and bolt to the ceiling.

http://webpages.charter.net/jackson.ronnie/avs/speakers/IB.jpg

The question I have for you is have you noticed any flexing of the ceiling, nail pops, etc? Do you think there is really that much to worry about the non cancelling affects of a line array, or is that just overkill?


Ronnie

The question I have for you is have you noticed any flexing of the ceiling, nail pops, etc? Do you think there is really that much to worry about the non cancelling affects of a line array, or is that just overkill?

Sorry for not replying, I dont check the boards too much these days.

I havent seen anything in my attic although its hard to tell since there is insulation everywhere now.

Also, I have only had it really thumping about 4 times and only once for a long period of time (New Years Eve) so I havent really stressed the structure for a long period of time.

I did run several 6x2s perpendicular on each side of those trusses to reinforce them and to also dissipate the vibration across my attic.

In the end Im more worried about Glass and Dish rattling then I am with any structure issues.

Like you I was going back and forth between Manifold and Array, the opening size for the Manifold and how to cover it was my biggest problem. Covering 4 18" holes is a pain too but I think it worked out great.


Next Project......Finishing off my very, very cool home automation and then starting on my REAL Home Theatre room.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y290/cecaa850/BracingWiringandInsulation.bmp

Ronnie, arrays can be braced so there is no movement whatsoever. I have 4 18's in a wall with no signs of paint or sheetrock distress. If I were building a downfiring array in a ceiling, I would run 2x4 braces perpindicular from the ceiling joists up to the roof trusses.

Sorry for not replying, I dont check the boards too much these days.

I havent seen anything in my attic although its hard to tell since there is insulation everywhere now.

Also, I have only had it really thumping about 4 times and only once for a long period of time (New Years Eve) so I havent really stressed the structure for a long period of time.

I did run several 6x2s perpendicular on each side of those trusses to reinforce them and to also dissipate the vibration across my attic.

In the end Im more worried about Glass and Dish rattling then I am with any structure issues.

Like you I was going back and forth between Manifold and Array, the opening size for the Manifold and how to cover it was my biggest problem. Covering 4 18" holes is a pain too but I think it worked out great.


Next Project......Finishing off my very, very cool home automation and then starting on my REAL Home Theatre room.

I hope you are putting an IB in your real home theater also.

Good read Penn! You now have me thinking I should learn about IB systems for my living room... I have another story above this room and I'm not crazy about cutting a big hole in the floor, but I do have a 54 cf closet in the LR. It doesn't sound like this is enough volume for an IB, but I guess I could vent the closet floor into the basement to make the closet 'bigger'. :hmm:

How many drivers are really needed and how do these systems compare to std commercial box subs?



BTW, you never really did give detailed SQ impressions, and comparisons to the Bic. :p

Good read Penn! You now have me thinking I should learn about IB systems for my living room... I have another story above this room and I'm not crazy about cutting a big hole in the floor, but I do have a 54 cf closet in the LR. It doesn't sound like this is enough volume for an IB, but I guess I could vent the closet floor into the basement to make the closet 'bigger'. :hmm:

How many drivers are really needed and how do these systems compare to std commercial box subs?



BTW, you never really did give detailed SQ impressions, and comparisons to the Bic. :p

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi

Just start reading.

I'm already there and reading away! :D

BTW, you never really did give detailed SQ impressions, and comparisons to the Bic.

lmao..I use to love the cheap BIC until I heard something real ;)

How many drivers are really needed and how do these systems compare to std commercial box subs?

IMO (kind of dumb one at that ;) )

4 drivers (15 or 18") are needed for IB and a 2400 Watt amp! But Thomas from the IB Cult website will tell you the truth. The more the better they say.

My core IB array cost was I think under $1500 plus lots of DIY fun. I can not even come close with a $1500 sub, its incredible how much better my IB sounds.

I have not even calibrated mine because it already sounds good enough to me. I should at some point calibrate my setup and get some graphs but I have other projects now and a new baby so zero time for perfection.

Nice Job!

When you have your system cranking how much bass is heard in other rooms (baby!)?
Do you have problems with resonating items in the attic, like vents or framing members, wallboard,ect?

TIA

Nice Job!

When you have your system cranking how much bass is heard in other rooms (baby!)?
Do you have problems with resonating items in the attic, like vents or framing members, wallboard,ect?

TIA

Hahaha, yeah he experiences slight movements here and there.

My quad sealed sub uses 4 MJ18 woofers and pumping it out with a few watts I can bring in-room to 125db. It's enough to make the 4" concrete decking of the second floor tremble. It vibrates the hell out of any drywall.

Suffice to say, penn has about 3 times more output capability than my cheap-o setup. He has the ability to cause some damage to his house if he really wanted to.

Thomas over at IB Cult suggested a cheater plug and it solved the problem.

I cant believe a $.69 plug from Home Depot solved my hum.

NOT a good idea guys. Lifting the ground on any grounded product is just not safe.
Check to see if the ground hum goes away if you unplug your cable TV from the system. If it does, a cable ground lifter is the way to go. If not, look for an Ebtech HumX which lifts the power ground safely.

Also, on the Cleanbox...do you have a Cleanbox 1 or Cleanbox II? If you have the Cleanbox 1 (RCA inputs, XLR outputs) it should have solved the issue. If you have a Cleanbox II...I've run into the issue using TRS before when a client used mono plugs instead of balanced TRS cords.

NOT a good idea guys. Lifting the ground on any grounded product is just not safe.Take that up with the companies that make the cheaters, the companies that sell the cheaters, the equipment companies that put ground lift switches on their gear, companies like PS Audio that have removable ground pins on their AC cables, and on and on....

Suffice to say, penn has about 3 times more output capability than my cheap-o setup. He has the ability to cause some damage to his house if he really wanted to.


I have to say that I have maybe only went 50% so far....I have not had a moment alone in the house. With Baby and family always around I can get a chance. "Turn it down" is the phrase I hear the most :D

Even at my New Years eve party it wasnt really cranked but it was still awesome

Someday, I will truelly find out :D

When you have your system cranking how much bass is heard in other rooms (baby!)?

You can hear it everywhere in the house because the family room is the center of the house and is so huge, its something like 20X30X12.

Mackenzie is 9 weeks now and she is used to "noise" :D
but Mommy isnt and never liked things loud :(

LOL.....l know what you mean, l had some ''free" time yesterday ( home alone ) and gave my system a bit of a workout on wotw ( 4x18" ava ib vented outdoors). we live on 5acres and our nearest neighbor is 400metres away, he turned up afterwards complaining about loud "thunder" noises and said another neighbor who lives even futher away had a go at him thinking he was doing it, l honestly didnt think bass would travel that loudly that far so l might have to rethink my instal and do somthing different as their is no way to muffle it :confused:

You mean add more power/speakers? Thats funny stuff! What kind of SPL where you getting inside?

kesa, that is way too cool!!! :D

The house next door must have an incredible custom system because I hear it more then mine :( I havent been in his house though, he is older, snobby and pissed I built beside him (His house is 1 Million, mines not) ;)

l going to go take some spl measurements at the neighbors when l get a chance, l'll get a family member to crank it up and see how loud it is while l'm down there , then l'll know if it really is a problem or not

cheers ken

Okay, the wife is away on business, the inlaws are gone....THE house is mine. YAHOO!!!

Need to get my measurements finally done...Hehe....Anyone have a link on how to do it right? And what software and hardware I need.

Im also going to start designing my HT room with the TC-2000s, I have 2 and I might get 2 more and put another IB array IN...This time I will not cover the TC-2000s because they are too cool to look at and I want to see them move :D

you have a sickness....a very SERIOUS sickness. I suggest you get yourself checked and go into rehab immediately!

:eek: :p:

ps- download REW, soundcard and other HW (mic, etc), and then we talk

Can I use a REW, Notebook and a Mic?

LOL.....l know what you mean, l had some ''free" time yesterday ( home alone ) and gave my system a bit of a workout on wotw ( 4x18" ava ib vented outdoors). we live on 5acres and our nearest neighbor is 400metres away, he turned up afterwards complaining about loud "thunder" noises and said another neighbor who lives even futher away had a go at him thinking he was doing it, l honestly didnt think bass would travel that loudly that far so l might have to rethink my instal and do somthing different as their is no way to muffle it :confused:Sound attenuates -6dB for every doubling of distance from the source.

I'll let you do the math for what the output level had do be at the source for it to be audible 400m away.

Can I use a REW, Notebook and a Mic?
yes....you need a notebook, a sound card with phantom power for the mic (or a separate power source for the mic, like a mixer), a mic like an emc8000, and cords.