Get FIOS. No restrictions yet there. I can freely record any HD programming from FIOS and transfer it, while over 75% of the same content from Comcast can't.
Comcast around here is too strict while FIOS is too lax.

That's my understanding on it as well.

I used CBS because there have been times where the cableco has thrown the flag and a call to the station succeeded it getting it removed.

I guess the point is, you don't really know who made the decision to apply the flag, only anecdotal evidence for the same channel on the same cableco in another part of the country has shown that the flag should not be applied.

As far as I can tell, Comcast here in the SF bay area is doing it all correctly, but as I noted, in some parts of the country the cableco is a bit heavy-handed with it.

I don't recall, but is hookbill talking about a specific channel? A call to the channel/content provider themselves might result in getting better info than through the cable company.

No, I'm talking about all digital channels that are not either a. ppv, b. premium, or c. HD that you can copy freely from analog and finally d. Channels like the biography channel, ESPN classic, digital channels that you use to be able to copy freely but can't anymore.

When I first got my TiVo HD not all digital channels were copy protected. Then one day they were. How come?

When you say "provider", do you mean the cable company, or the content provider themselves(ie CBS, HBO, etc)?

Is there a specific channel you're having issues with?

Provider = cable company.

No, I'm talking about all digital channels that are not either a. ppv, b. premium, or c. HD that you can copy freely from analog and finally d. Channels like the biography channel, ESPN classic, digital channels that you use to be able to copy freely but can't anymore.

When I first got my TiVo HD not all digital channels were copy protected. Then one day they were. How come?

Is this universal across all TW systems? Or just yours? If it's universal then I'd say you got a real problem, but if it's just local, then you may have some recourse - it would be a matter of finding the right people in the right dept. From what I've read so far, your method seems to be a bit unfocused - have you checked with your local forum for contact info, someone who might be involved in the setting of the flags?

Get FIOS. No restrictions yet there. I can freely record any HD programming from FIOS and transfer it, while over 75% of the same content from Comcast can't.
Comcast around here is too strict while FIOS is too lax.

We can only dream about that out here in AT&T country...:(

It's my understanding that that flag is set at the content provider's discretion, in some cases though, cable companies have gone ahead and set it themselves for what ever reason. It's those cases where one should lobby the cableco to to remove the flag, and in fact, talking to the content provider themselves might even work - tell CBS you can't watch their programs because your cableco is blocking the ability to record them for example.The content providers are not regulated by the FCC--only the cable companies are and the FCC hasn't granted the content providers discretion. Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, §76.1904 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=f965310e0934940a37f9f98f7f0459d1&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.23.3.4&idno=47), "Encoding rules for defined business models" spells out exactly how the cable providers can use the copy protection codes on digital content. (Terms in it, such as "unencrypted broadcast television", "pay television transmission", etc, are defined in CFR 47, §76.1902 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=f965310e0934940a37f9f98f7f0459d1&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.23.3.2&idno=47)). To paraphrase, nothing that they're required to carry in the clear (i.e., the core basic cable tier, often called "lifeline basic") can be marked with anything other than "Copy Freely"; anything else can be marked "Copy One Generation" and only Pay-Per-View or Video On Demand (the pay-per-viewing-period variety) can be marked "Copy Never". Finally, though no permanent copy of a transmission marked "Copy Never" may be created, up to the past 90 minutes of it may be recorded ephemerally in a trick-play buffer.

The FCC doesn't require the use of these protections, they just limit the ways in which they can be applied. Within those limits, it's all at the cable service providers' discretion. The content providers (NBC Universal, HBO/Cinemax, etc) are free to make application of these codes part of their carriage agreements (I believe that HBO/Cinemax explicitly requires them--they do require analog protections be applied to analog output of their stuff--see this (http://www.hbo.com/corpinfo/cgmsafaq.shtml)). I'm sure that if one of the content providers was displeased that a service provider was applying "Copy One Generation" protection to their stuff and called them up and told them, the cable provider would remove it, but that would be a matter of maintaining good business relations.

Thanks for the clarification, it should answer hookbill's questions. :)

Thanks for the clarification, it should answer hookbill's questions. :)

I understand all the rules and regulations. I know that TW is within their right to do what they want as Michael points out within the scope of the FCC regulations.

But as he also points out they don't have to make all digital broadcast with a copy once flag. It's the companies decision. And I have a problem with this decision. As a customer I am entitled to speak up on it.

I did get a call back from Time Warner, but basically it was just a representative calling to see what I was complaining about. He listened carefully as I explained my point of view. He said he will look into it and call me tomorrow.

Now do I expect him to call be back and say, "hook, you were right and we will change those flags?" Of course not. My point is that I'm a loan voice in the crowd. If enough people do call however I believe they could make a change in their policy.

I don't think TW is saying "let's screw the TiVo people." I think someone within the company decided this would be the policy they would take. And to answer your other question, no, I'm not sure that all TW does this. I just don't think they understand that it limits TiVo owners in what we are capable of doing. I even complimented TW and other cable companies for what I see as their willingness to work with TiVo, like in coming up with the digital converter.

But I don't think they care enough to have "looked before they leaped" into this decision. And my complaint to others in this forum is to call the executive number and keep complaining. The squeaky wheel gets greased.

Again the number is 1.203.351.2221

Get FIOS. No restrictions yet there. I can freely record any HD programming from FIOS and transfer it, while over 75% of the same content from Comcast can't.
Comcast around here is too strict while FIOS is too lax.

There is no FIOS in my area. I certainly would give it a try if I could.

How are they "screwing the TiVo people", hook? The people using their leased boxes and just about any of other DVRs on the market can't copy stuff off of them at all. The expectation that you should be able to do this is all on you.

If you think that it's unreasonable, you should identify your local government's cable franchising agency and complain to them about it as well (that's one of the things that the guy at TCF who claims to have changed Comcast's policy says that he did). If they agree with you, they can exert pressure on your cable provider that's a lot stronger than yours.

How are they "screwing the TiVo people", hook? The people using their leased boxes and just about any of other DVRs on the market can't copy stuff off of them at all. The expectation that you should be able to do this is all on you.



I think you need to read my post more carefully. I did not say that.

I think you need to read my post more carefully. I did not say that.I'm responding to:
I don't think TW is saying "let's screw the TiVo people." I think someone within the company decided this would be the policy they would take. And to answer your other question, no, I'm not sure that all TW does this. I just don't think they understand that it limits TiVo owners in what we are capable of doing. I even complimented TW and other cable companies for what I see as their willingness to work with TiVo, like in coming up with the digital converter.I'm taking it from that first sentence that "screwing the TiVo people" is what you think they're doing.

BTW, the whole Tuning Adapter thing was motivated purely by self-interest. A group of CE OEMs complained that <tru2way> was far too expensive to be the sole method by which they could acheive interactive-cable-compatible products and asked the FCC to make cable come up with a cheaper to implement alternative (which they called "Digital Cable Ready Plus"). Cable came back and estimated that DCR+ would cost "hundreds of millions" out of their pockets and that the only alternative to <tru2way> that was really necessary was for SDV tuning, for which they offered the Tuning Adapter. They hope to make the Tuning Adapter a fait accompli before the FCC gets around to ruling on the issue. If the TA is deemed sufficient, it will save them a hugely over the effort of fully specifying and implementing DCR+. They don't give a damn about CableCARD TiVo users, who number far less than 1% of their subscribership nationwide.

Maybe the SDV adapters could come out in September to November. However, this could take until 2009.

I am hoping at least by November if not sooner.

I'm responding to:
I'm taking it from that first sentence that "screwing the TiVo people" is what you think they're doing.



michaelscott, I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill but that is not what I said!

My first sentence was: "I don't think TW is saying "let's screw the TiVo people." Clearly I said that I did not think that! Go back to the post and look.

And when you do, now an apology is in order.

michaelscott, I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill but that is not what I said!

My first sentence was: "I don't think TW is saying "let's screw the TiVo people." Clearly I said that I did not think that! Go back to the post and look.

And when you do, now an apology is in order.First off, if you want an apology, fine--I apologize if I've somehow offended you. I didn't intend to.

Maybe you didn't mean to imply it, but the words "screw the TiVo people" are in your post, implying, to me, that you think that that's what they're doing. I get that you were saying that you don't think that it's their intention to "screw the TiVo people", but if you didn't think that's what they're doing, why would you use those words? No big deal--just semantics. Let's just forget it and move on.

First off, if you want an apology, fine--I apologize if I've somehow offended you. I didn't intend to.

Maybe you didn't mean to imply it, but the words "screw the TiVo people" are in your post, implying, to me, that you think that that's what they're doing. I get that you were saying that you don't think that it's their intention to "screw the TiVo people", but if you didn't think that's what they're doing, why would you use those words? No big deal--just semantics. Let's just forget it and move on.

Fine. I just don't see how you came up with that I was saying that I even thought that.

Let's move on. It's only words that apparently were misinterpreted.

I don't mean to crap on the thread here but I have a question about a Series 3 using a M-card or S-card.

The change in topic is a welcome one, IMHO.


I had people tell me that a series 3 TiVo will work as a duel tuner using 1 M-card. Is this true or would you need 2 M-cards?

Series3 only supports S-Cards, or M-Cards acting in single tuner mode. The S3 doesn't have the requisite firmware to support M-Cards acting in support of multiple tuners. The TiVoHD does support M-Cards operating in multiple tuner mode.

So, to enable both tuners of an S3, you can either have 2 x S-Cards, or 2 x M-Cards. Nothing else.

Also whats the diff from M to S?

S-Cards only support decrypt functions for a single tuner.
M-Cards support decrypt functions for 1-6 tuners.

This has been discussed endlessly on TCF (where, as I know, you're not welcome :rolleyes:). Someone said that he persistently complained to Comcast (and his local franchising agency) about it so much that he finally got to a high level manager who changed their national policy such that they don't apply digital copy protection codes to anything unless explicitly requested by the content provider. If it bothers you enough, maybe you can get your cable provider to adopt a similar policy.
Certainly seems to be true on Comcast in the ATL, where I could freely record all of the digital channels over Firewire to my Myth box before I got the TivoHD. If CCI had been applied, nothing would record on a channel.

But as always with this stuff, it's totally dependent on your local cableCo's policy, and they often get it wrong. Just like the way they deal with Cablecard provisioning for the Tivos. Face it, they're never going to be our friends with DVR's that ain't theirs. You have to beat them into submission, just as hookbill is trying to do. Good job man, and good luck!

Series3 only supports S-Cards, or M-Cards acting in single tuner mode. The S3 doesn't have the requisite firmware to support M-Cards acting in support of multiple tuners. The TiVoHD does support M-Cards operating in multiple tuner mode.

So, to enable both tuners of an S3, you can either have 2 x S-Cards, or 2 x M-Cards. Nothing else.
Paul -

On one of TiVo's support pages, it indicates you can have one M and one S card, and it will still work in an S3 - http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/technicalsupport/hdandcablecards/Troubleshooting_CableCARD_Activation_and_Channel_Issues.html #Step1InstallingthecorrectnumberofCableCARDSFordualtuneroper ation

"Series3 HD DVRs run all CableCARDs in single stream mode, so this model DVR always requires 2 CableCARDS, which can be M-Cards, S-Cards, or a combination of the two."

Now, I just had two CableCARDS installed in my S3 Friday (one M and one S). We ran guided setup and all seemed well. But after the techs left, I was randomly losing channels, whether they were HD or my lower tier (2-78...I have Mediacom). On Saturday, I called Mediacom's CS and, after much cajoling, got them to re-initialize my cards. Everything seemed fine since then, but tonight, I noticed that USA HD disappeared. I have all my other channels. Do you think it's because of the mix of the M and S cards?

John

EDIT: Just spent some time with Mediacom CS on the phone. He said that, from what he saw, my cards were "unresponsive". I asked what that meant, and he said they were dead. I said, no they're not...I'm getting all the channels I'm supposed to get except USA HD. He said that, as far as he knew, USA HD was fine on their system. He supposedly sent hits to both cards after I pulled them and reinstalled, but that made no difference. Tech is supposed to bring two new cards on Tuesday.

Oh, now I see why you quoted my post. Yeah, with the S3, it's OK to run with 2xS, 2xM, or 1S+1M. I forgot to mention that last one...

It's probably not directly related to mixing the card types. Especially since TiVo says it's fine, and there's likely lots of folks out there who are running with a similar set up.

My guess is that it's a screw up in the back office account stuff from your provider, or you got a bad card. I'd probably try to swap one or both cards out, and see if that clears up the problem. If not, you'll likely have to work your way up your provider's phone tree to get to Tier2 support, which is where they keep the people who know what they're doing.

edit : Wow, when did I go over 1000 posts ?

Oh, now I see why you quoted my post. Yeah, with the S3, it's OK to run with 2xS, 2xM, or 1S+1M. I forgot to mention that last one...

It's probably not directly related to mixing the card types. Especially since TiVo says it's fine, and there's likely lots of folks out there who are running with a similar set up.

My guess is that it's a screw up in the back office account stuff from your provider, or you got a bad card. I'd probably try to swap one or both cards out, and see if that clears up the problem. If not, you'll likely have to work your way up your provider's phone tree to get to Tier2 support, which is where they keep the people who know what they're doing.

edit : Wow, when did I go over 1000 posts ?
Thanks....can you explain what you mean exactly by "...a screw up in the back office account stuff from your provider..."? Do you mean they might have the wrong serial number from one/both cards?

EDIT: I doublechecked the serial #s with the CS, and they have them correct.

Thanks....can you explain what you mean exactly by "...a screw up in the back office account stuff from your provider..."? Do you mean they might have the wrong serial number from one/both cards?

EDIT: I doublechecked the serial #s with the CS, and they have them correct.

It seems there's some black magic involved in the account maintenance for cableco's when CableCARDs are involved. It goes beyond correctly entering the ID numbers into the system. I can't tell you exactly what those things are, since I don't work for a cableco, and it's likely to vary from provider to provider.

However, since it seems you were able to tune to most, if not all, of the channels you are subscribed to at one point in time, it may not be an accounting issue with your provider. You may just have a bad card. You can try and figure out which one it is by selecting the channel number of the problem channel, and then going into the CableCARD Diagnostic menu. There's LOTS of information there for both tuners. Try this for a few problem channels, and if you see it reoccurring on the same card, you've identified which card is the problem one.

EDIT: Just spent some time with Mediacom CS on the phone. He said that, from what he saw, my cards were "unresponsive". I asked what that meant, and he said they were dead.

A good clue that the CS doesn't know what he is doing. Of course they appear dead, the TiVo is a one way system. It doesn't transmit back to the headend.
He probably configured them the way the ones in the cable company box get configured. Cable company boxes are two way devices. TiVos won't be two way until the long awaited tuning resolver is deployed. Even then they won't work with On Demand.

A good clue that the CS doesn't know what he is doing. Of course they appear dead, the TiVo is a one way system. It doesn't transmit back to the headend.
He probably configured them the way the ones in the cable company box get configured. Cable company boxes are two way devices. TiVos won't be two way until the long awaited tuning resolver is deployed. Even then they won't work with On Demand.
I figured as much....the interesting thing is that I have USA HD back today. So my guess is the card(s) is/are flaky. I'm having the tech come tomorrow with two more CableCARDS to check things out. When it works, it's great. But I can't have these random disappearing channel issues.

Here's my ritual 6-month check-in to see if rumor control has any glimmer of HD Tivo becoming available for DirecTv users? These H20s are a poor second best to my SD Tivo unit now relegated to the bedroom...

No.

New S3 owner here,:)

I have some what of a technical question regarding the S3 antenna channel scan recognition ability.

I am currently using OTA antenna only (no cable) and I am wondering if I "mixed" my C-band satellite signal via an RF frequency agile modulator into the antenna system, would the S3 recognize this as a "valid" channel and allow me to record it or does the Tivo system require some sort of data stream channel ID before a channel is recognized as "valid".

I realize in this method there would be no guide information, but just curious as to this possibility, and if not is there any way to add a source component other than broadcast and cable TV sources to the Tivo system?

My guess is that the Tivo requires some sort of data stream before a channel frequency is recognized as "valid".:(

Anyway just looking for some input to this question.

Thanks.

New S3 owner here,:)

I have some what of a technical question regarding the S3 antenna channel scan recognition ability.

I am currently using OTA antenna only (no cable) and I am wondering if I "mixed" my C-band satellite signal via an RF frequency agile modulator into the antenna system, would the S3 recognize this as a "valid" channel and allow me to record it or does the Tivo system require some sort of data stream channel ID before a channel is recognized as "valid".

I realize in this method there would be no guide information, but just curious as to this possibility, and if not is there any way to add a source component other than broadcast and cable TV sources to the Tivo system?

My guess is that the Tivo requires some sort of data stream before a channel frequency is recognized as "valid".:(

Anyway just looking for some input to this question.

Thanks.

I'll be honest. What you say sounds possible but I'm not that high tech of a guy to say "yes." I do have enough experience to know that I have never heard of anyone who has in any way, shape, or form make the S3 work with a satellite box.

It's interesting how badly people who use satellite want TiVo but I don't see it happening, at least for years. TiVo committed itself to cable when D* dropped them. You can thank Frank Murdock for that. And even though D* has said that they may "open" that door again that doesn't mean much. TiVo's contracts with cable companies are probably exclusive so that satellite companies can't use their software. Further, they would have to design a new system specially with mpeg4 use on D*

However, if it isn't to expensive you certainly can try. If you are able please let us know, you'd be the first!

TiVo's contracts with cable companies are probably exclusive so that satellite companies can't use their software.That is not the case. The problem works the other way: TiVo is not permitted to use the satellite companies' software.

That is not the case. The problem works the other way: TiVo is not permitted to use the satellite companies' software.

That's because the satellite companies' won't let them. D* did use TiVo, you know that. They are the one's who decided to boot TiVo.

Absolutely.

New S3 owner here,:)

I have some what of a technical question regarding the S3 antenna channel scan recognition ability.

I am currently using OTA antenna only (no cable) and I am wondering if I "mixed" my C-band satellite signal via an RF frequency agile modulator into the antenna system, would the S3 recognize this as a "valid" channel and allow me to record it or does the Tivo system require some sort of data stream channel ID before a channel is recognized as "valid".

I realize in this method there would be no guide information, but just curious as to this possibility, and if not is there any way to add a source component other than broadcast and cable TV sources to the Tivo system?

My guess is that the Tivo requires some sort of data stream before a channel frequency is recognized as "valid".:(

Anyway just looking for some input to this question.

Thanks.

I got my hands on an RF frequency-agile modulator and I could not get the S3 to recognize a channel (ch.16) frequency.:(

So I can only conclude (at this time) that before the S3 will recognize a channel frequency as being "valid" is that there likely must be some sort of ID information within each channel frequency for the S3 to "validate" the frequency as a legitimate RF broadcast channel.

Again if anyone is able to shed any light on this subject or if my assumption is incorrect, I would appreciate your comments.

Thanks

Try running guided setup again and tell the S3 that you have cable and an antenna. I think the channel frequencies above 14 are different between cable and OTA. Or, if you can set your modulator to a channel below 14 scan and see if it then picks it up.

Try running guided setup again and tell the S3 that you have cable and an antenna. I think the channel frequencies above 14 are different between cable and OTA. Or, if you can set your modulator to a channel below 14 scan and see if it then picks it up.

Hey Moxie

Thanks for your suggestion, I will give it a try. :)

BTW if IIRC this RF frequency-agile modulator I have (Channel Plus a2v) does the UHF band only, from 14-68. I am hoping the cable input will pickup a frequency band within this range and be able to tune it.

Again thanks for your suggestion, and I will post the outcome soon.

Carl

Last night I noticed that both my TiVo HD and S3 lost connection with my computer, not my network.

The day before I had installed a new version of Zone Alarm and set it to a "clean" mode because of all the extra crap that was in it. However there was no interruption of service. I was playing music from my computer through my S3 in the morning.

It was in the evening when I went to transfer a show that I noticed the problem. I instructed ZA to give full permission to pyTiVo and to Python. Still no connection. I rebooted my computer. Didn't work.

So I went upstairs and rebooted my TiVo HD. After reboot it recognized my computer. I finished watching a recorded show and was prepared to reboot the S3 when I double checked and I'll be darn if the S3 didn't see the computer as well.

Did TiVo HD say, "Hey buddy, we got this too?"

Last night I noticed that both my TiVo HD and S3 lost connection with my computer, not my network.

The day before I had installed a new version of Zone Alarm and set it to a "clean" mode because of all the extra crap that was in it. However there was no interruption of service. I was playing music from my computer through my S3 in the morning.

It was in the evening when I went to transfer a show that I noticed the problem. I instructed ZA to give full permission to pyTiVo and to Python. Still no connection. I rebooted my computer. Didn't work.

So I went upstairs and rebooted my TiVo HD. After reboot it recognized my computer. I finished watching a recorded show and was prepared to reboot the S3 when I double checked and I'll be darn if the S3 didn't see the computer as well.

Did TiVo HD say, "Hey buddy, we got this too?"

I too have issues with the TiVo's losing the server... but... I believe its a different problem. All is well for me unless I have an 'auto transfer' with TiVo Desktop set up. There appears to be a memory leak in TiVo Server with auto transfers enabled. You can watch the memory consumption climb to over a gigabyte. Soon thereafter, server disappears from the TiVo menu. Kill the server and restart it and the process starts over. Turn off the auto transfer... problem disappears.

I too have issues with the TiVo's losing the server... but... I believe its a different problem. All is well for me unless I have an 'auto transfer' with TiVo Desktop set up. There appears to be a memory leak in TiVo Server with auto transfers enabled. You can watch the memory consumption climb to over a gigabyte. Soon thereafter, server disappears from the TiVo menu. Kill the server and restart it and the process starts over. Turn off the auto transfer... problem disappears.

Yep, that's why I got rid of TiVo Server and went with pyTiVo. I was just curious if the two TiVo's were capable of that type of communication. Notice I said once I restarted the TiVo HD it could see my computer. Then, without me doing anything the S3 saw it as well.

I've never had a problem with mine, but i have a VISTA PC dedicated to TiVo Desktop and it has 4GB of memory. I have around 20 auto transfers setup.
I don't think my TiVos have ever lost connection to the server.

I've never had a problem with mine, but i have a VISTA PC dedicated to TiVo Desktop and it has 4GB of memory. I have around 20 auto transfers setup.
I don't think my TiVos have ever lost connection to the server.

I don't know if anyone is getting the point of my question. I believe I know why it lost connection, that's not what I am asking. I think the new install of Zone Alarm was probably the reason why.

I made sure at that point that pyTiVo had full rights to communication. When I rebooted my TiVo HD connection was restored. Connection was also restored to my S3.

My question was how did this communicated? Did the TiVo HD tell the S3 that there was another connection after the reboot? Or was it just a coincicidence, maybe a "checking in" that made the S3 aware of the PC after I made sure ZA was giving free communication?

I've never had a problem with mine, but i have a VISTA PC dedicated to TiVo Desktop and it has 4GB of memory. I have around 20 auto transfers setup.
I don't think my TiVos have ever lost connection to the server.

Interesting... My server is dedicated too. I believe it has 2G and is running Windows Server 2003 Standard Edition. I have only two auto transfers set up and they kill it every time. To test this a bit further, I also set up TiVo server on my XP desktop system. Exact same failure... same error messages... same everything. Turn off the auto transfers and everything works great. Turn 'em on... t minus about 12 hours and down she goes.

I don't know if anyone is getting the point of my question. I believe I know why it lost connection, that's not what I am asking. I think the new install of Zone Alarm was probably the reason why.

I made sure at that point that pyTiVo had full rights to communication. When I rebooted my TiVo HD connection was restored. Connection was also restored to my S3.

My question was how did this communicated? Did the TiVo HD tell the S3 that there was another connection after the reboot? Or was it just a coincicidence, maybe a "checking in" that made the S3 aware of the PC after I made sure ZA was giving free communication?


I believe each of the TiVo's have a Beacon service just like TiVo Desktop/Server. This lets them all find each other. I doubt that one TiVo would relay information about the server to another one. They probably both lost contact and removed the server from its list of present devices.

After the latest service update, my S3 locked up and required a hard reboot. It wouldn't respond to any remote commands...not a huge deal, but a friend wanted a demo of how good TiVo looked at 88 inches!

After the latest service update, my S3 locked up and required a hard reboot. It wouldn't respond to any remote commands...not a huge deal, but a friend wanted a demo of how good TiVo looked at 88 inches!

Yeah, that can be a bit embarrasing, but it doesn't take that long to reboot. Were you able to demo?

We didn't bother...we were on a time crunch...I did demo HP5 on Blu-ray though at reference level....they were pretty impressed. It was "Better than the theater," they said.

...I made sure at that point that pyTiVo had full rights to communication. When I rebooted my TiVo HD connection was restored. Connection was also restored to my S3. My question was how did this communicated?

If, in Zone Alarm, you gave pyTiVo permission to use the network, then (unless you worked really hard on advanced options) it would be able to communicate with any and all devices on your LAN. Hence both TiVos should start working. It probably took a TiVo reboot to get them to try to connect to pyTiVo again.

If, in Zone Alarm, you gave pyTiVo permission to use the network, then (unless you worked really hard on advanced options) it would be able to communicate with any and all devices on your LAN. Hence both TiVos should start working. It probably took a TiVo reboot to get them to try to connect to pyTiVo again.

No doubt. What was interesting to me was I only rebooted 1 TiVo, yet the other got connected as well.

Now the next day I noticed that the S3 had lost communication with TiVo HD. I went upstairs and TiVo HD could see the S3. I clicked on the S3, brought up it's now playing list and went downstairs and of course the TiVo HD was there again.

My theory on that was the connection may have been temporarily lost while using the microwave. It really seems to upset the wireless network.

I believe the TiVo's use a multicast beacon to announce themselves on the network. That way, it only needs to send one message and everyone will get it, rather than having to send an individual packet to each listener/TiVo/PC. When you rebooted the TiVo, you likely forced it to re-announce itself, and that lead to things clearing themselves up.

I usually have ZoneAlarm give permissions to all of the TiVo apps (beacon, etc), and also put the TiVo IP addresses in the trusted network as well. I'venever had a problem with pyTivo, or any other traffic directed at them (i.e. www NowPlaying access).

If your microwave is messing with your wireless, you've got bigger problems. Try shifting your wireless to a different channel, or better yet, get a microwave that doesn't emit that much RF junk. Who knows, you could be cooking yourself in addition to your food. :)

I believe the TiVo's use a multicast beacon to announce themselves on the network. That way, it only needs to send one message and everyone will get it, rather than having to send an individual packet to each listener/TiVo/PC. When you rebooted the TiVo, you likely forced it to re-announce itself, and that lead to things clearing themselves up.

I usually have ZoneAlarm give permissions to all of the TiVo apps (beacon, etc), and also put the TiVo IP addresses in the trusted network as well. I'venever had a problem with pyTivo, or any other traffic directed at them (i.e. www NowPlaying access).

If your microwave is messing with your wireless, you've got bigger problems. Try shifting your wireless to a different channel, or better yet, get a microwave that doesn't emit that much RF junk. Who knows, you could be cooking yourself in addition to your food. :)


Actually this is the second microwave I've had in this house and they both cause the same problem, i.e. playing music will get interrupted and TiVo will say it can't find the network until the microwave goes off.

I did take your advise and since I use wifi protection on it changes the ip addresses from time to time but only within a specific range. I added all of those addresses to make sure there were no more problems.

New S3 owner here,:)

I have some what of a technical question regarding the S3 antenna channel scan recognition ability.

I am currently using OTA antenna only (no cable) and I am wondering if I "mixed" my C-band satellite signal via an RF frequency-agile modulator into the antenna system, would the S3 recognize this as a "valid" channel and allow me to record it?

I realize in this method there would be no guide information, but just curious as to this possibility, and if not is there any way to add a source component other than broadcast and cable TV sources to the Tivo system?


Just to follow up to my earlier post, I have successfully integrated my C-Band satellite system using a frequency-agile modulator into the S3 antenna input.

Using the S3 channel scan function it successfully picked up UHF frequency channel 59 and allowed me to receive and record C-Band satellite.

I used an A2V Channel Plus modulator and input the analog audio and video signals via the RCA input on the modulator, where it then modulated the signal to an open unused UHF frequency, it then mixes that signal into the RF loop-through signal of local broadcast signals onto the S3 antenna input. The channel shows up in the channel list as channel 59.

Again this is not hi-def video or audio, and there is no Tivo guide but it does work and will allow something other than broadcast signal to viewed and recorded.

I doubt any members here are interested in this low-tech setup, but just posting that it has successfully been done and works fine.

Anyway back to your regularly scheduled program. :D

Just to follow up to my earlier post, I have successfully integrated my C-Band satellite system using a frequency-agile modulator into the S3 antenna input.

Using the S3 channel scan function it successfully picked up UHF frequency channel 59 and allowed me to receive and record C-Band satellite.

I used an A2V Channel Plus modulator and input the analog audio and video signals via the RCA input on the modulator, where it then modulated the signal to an open unused UHF frequency, it then mixes that signal into the RF loop-through signal of local broadcast signals onto the S3 antenna input. The channel shows up in the channel list as channel 59.

Again this is not hi-def video or audio, and there is no Tivo guide but it does work and will allow something other than broadcast signal to viewed and recorded.

I doubt any members here are interested in this low-tech setup, but just posting that it has successfully been done and works fine.

Anyway back to your regularly scheduled program. :D

Well, a lot of what you said went over my head but I do know one thing. Once you hook up the S3 you have 7 days to sign up for service. After that you will simply get a message saying you need to activate service for your S3.

I guess your point is you've managed to successfully take a satellite signal and get the S3 to record it. While that is kind of interesting, it sure seems like a real pain just for one channel.

However let us know if you are still receiving a signal in 7 days, or if you've already had it hooked up beyond the 7 days.

Hey Hook,

Thanks for responding to my posts, I've had Tivo service activated for a couple weeks now, but I was just posting that I was able to integrate an additional component other than local broadcast antenna into the mix, which I don't think has been done to my knowledge.
Other than that, thats all I was saying.
Appreciate your participation here and enjoy reading you posts.

I'm thinking about getting a Series 3 Tivo. However, I want to stay away from getting a CableCard.

Without getting a CableCard, will I be able to remap the local HD Qam channels to their SD counterparts to get the guide info? I know this was a problem in the past with this model. I am wondering if this has been corrected.

Thanks

I'm thinking about getting a Series 3 Tivo. However, I want to stay away from getting a CableCard.

Without getting a CableCard, will I be able to remap the local HD Qam channels to their SD counterparts to get the guide info? I know this was a problem in the past with this model. I am wondering if this has been corrected.

Thanks

It works like this. You get the S3 or TiVo HD, they both work the same. During guided set up you select Antenna Only. It will then ask you for your zip code.

At that time it will give you the channels that are available that Tribune Media, which is their outsource for guide information has listed in your area.

If you want to see exactly what those channels will be go to www.zap2it.com and select over the air and use your zip code.

If you are in an area where it may be possible to get more channels you can change the zip code to any you want to use.

But it doesn't find channels that arn't being used. It doesn't work like a QAM Tuner and you can't map it.

The reason I went through the trouble of explaining this to you before the above paragraph was you described this as a "problem." It is not a "problem" it is how the S3 and TiVo HD are designed to work.

I'm thinking about getting a Series 3 Tivo. However, I want to stay away from getting a CableCard.

Without getting a CableCard, will I be able to remap the local HD Qam channels to their SD counterparts to get the guide info? I know this was a problem in the past with this model. I am wondering if this has been corrected.

Thanks

You dont get guide data for QAM channels without a cablecard. TiVo does not support any manual 'remapping' of channels. However, as Hook pointed out, you can use an antenna and get your local OTA ATSC HD (or otherwise) channels which will have guide data. You would be running the TiVo in Antenna + Cable mode. You basic analog cable would come from the cableco and you local HD's from the antenna.

You dont get guide data for QAM channels without a cablecard. TiVo does not support any manual 'remapping' of channels. However, as Hook pointed out, you can use an antenna and get your local OTA ATSC HD (or otherwise) channels which will have guide data. You would be running the TiVo in Antenna + Cable mode. You basic analog cable would come from the cableco and you local HD's from the antenna.

Thanks for covering me there buddy, I should have known though if he he said QAM he meant cable. Per usual as I often admit my knowledge of QAM is non existant, so much so that somehow I translated what he was asking to an OTA question.

I suppose the part of "mapping qam channels" is what confused me. It's often discussed in my local forum and they talk about channels moving around, etc. I think basically it's some form of getting digital and HD channels with just basic service.

And to further add on to what I just said if he was thinking about that he should be advised that TiVo charges for services, cable card or no cable card.

Hi,

I'm new to the TiVo world and have a couple simple questions that I could not find when using the forum's limited search capabilities...

I will be using my analog cable connection (all SD with some QAM HD), along with a rooftop OTA antenna.

I get more HD from my antenna than QAM, so I'm not super-concerned if I don't get the QAM HD via the TiVo.

Will I be able to use the 60-70 SD analog cable channels and the OTA digital channels...all in the same channel guide?

Also, which should I get, the S3 or the HD? If they are exactly the same right now, will one likely get more upgrades and fixes?

Thanks,
Tim (not currently) in Hollywood

I suppose the part of "mapping qam channels" is what confused me. It's often discussed in my local forum and they talk about channels moving around, etc. I think basically it's some form of getting digital and HD channels with just basic service.There's a sort of "physical" mapping of QAM channels that all devices with clear QAM tuning support, including, I believe, TiVo. The channel number is based on the actual frequency where the QAM carrier is broadcast, run through a simple arithmetic forumula (which I don't know offhand), plus a subchannel number identifying which program in the MPEG Transport Stream in the QAM carrier at that frequency is desired. At one point, while waiting for CableCARD installation, I was able to tune local channel rebroadcasts using numbers like "74-3" (where the "-" is entered with the TiVo "->|" button--on my remote it has a dash in parenthesis above it). I was even able to set up manual recordings of the channels. The cable companies move the channels around as they please, which is why TiVo doesn't support them in their guide data.

Hi,

I'm new to the TiVo world and have a couple simple questions that I could not find when using the forum's limited search capabilities...

I will be using my analog cable connection (all SD with some QAM HD), along with a rooftop OTA antenna.

I get more HD from my antenna than QAM, so I'm not super-concerned if I don't get the QAM HD via the TiVo.

Will I be able to use the 60-70 SD analog cable channels and the OTA digital channels...all in the same channel guide?

Also, which should I get, the S3 or the HD? If they are exactly the same right now, will one likely get more upgrades and fixes?

Thanks,
Tim (not currently) in Hollywood

Yes. TiVo without cablecard will get all the analog cable stuff (just like a TV would) and with the antenna enabled all your locals will work. They will all be in the same guide. You can pick and choose what you want to be in that guide by checking and unchecking stuff in the 'channels I receive' menu.

Hi,

I'm new to the TiVo world and have a couple simple questions that I could not find when using the forum's limited search capabilities...

I will be using my analog cable connection (all SD with some QAM HD), along with a rooftop OTA antenna.

I get more HD from my antenna than QAM, so I'm not super-concerned if I don't get the QAM HD via the TiVo.

Will I be able to use the 60-70 SD analog cable channels and the OTA digital channels...all in the same channel guide?

Also, which should I get, the S3 or the HD? If they are exactly the same right now, will one likely get more upgrades and fixes?

Thanks,
Tim (not currently) in Hollywood

S3 Pros: Larger Hard Drive, Not restricted to "TiVo Approved" eSATA (you can get more then 500gb), much more attractive, has a display with the titles of shows it is recording, and is THX Certified.

S3 Cons: Needs two cards even if it's M cards, that display while attractive is a bit hard to read, and the cable cards load in the back. I don't know if they have fixed it but mine are hard as heck to get out, I have to use pliars.

TiVo HD Pros: Cheaper, Cards are right up front easy to get to and I'll bet it's just as capable of being THX certified but it isn't. You can use one M card to receive two different feeds from your cable company.

TiVo HD Cons: I really think it looks cheap, I hate not knowing what it's recording. But the biggest thing is the restricted eSATA hard drive. You can only use TiVo Approved My DVR Expander, 500gb.

Thanks for covering me there buddy, I should have known though if he he said QAM he meant cable. Per usual as I often admit my knowledge of QAM is non existant, so much so that somehow I translated what he was asking to an OTA question.

I suppose the part of "mapping qam channels" is what confused me. It's often discussed in my local forum and they talk about channels moving around, etc. I think basically it's some form of getting digital and HD channels with just basic service.

And to further add on to what I just said if he was thinking about that he should be advised that TiVo charges for services, cable card or no cable card.

No problem bud... What folks would like to do is be able to tell the TiVo that a particular clear QAM channel say 76.1 should be treated as channel xxx and use its guide data. That would let a TiVo without a cablecard know where it can tune to get the actual programming associated with the channel in the guide. This function is normally handled by the Cablecard. The trouble is... as michaelscott points out... is that the cableco can move those channels at will. A cablecard would know immedietly when this happens, while a person who manually maps wouldlt know until their favorite program turned out to be a shopping channel or some other crap... and of course blame TiVo .

I don't know if they have fixed it but mine are hard as heck to get out, I have to use pliars.

To the right of each cablecard is a black square button. Push and then release it. The button will pop out. Push the button the whole way in and it will pop the cablecard part of the way out of the slot. No tools required.

You dont get guide data for QAM channels without a cablecard. TiVo does not support any manual 'remapping' of channels. However, as Hook pointed out, you can use an antenna and get your local OTA ATSC HD (or otherwise) channels which will have guide data. You would be running the TiVo in Antenna + Cable mode. You basic analog cable would come from the cableco and you local HD's from the antenna.
That's right. The TiVo guide shows the channels as the cable company lists them, not by their QAM frequency numbers. For example, the OKC CBS affiliate is shown on the TiVo guide as channel 709, but its real QAM frequency is 106.009. I have to use the second number to tune to this channel with my TV's QAM tuner, because it isn't connected to a cable box, so it receives only basic cable. TiVo works great with OTA channels. They are listed in the same program guide as cable channels. For example, the local CBS channel's digital OTA feed is on channel 9-1, which shows up on the cable guide right after cable channel 9 and before cable channel 10.

To the right of each cablecard is a black square button. Push and then release it. The button will pop out. Push the button the whole way in and it will pop the cablecard part of the way out of the slot. No tools required.

Did you notice the part of my post that said, "I don't know if they have fixed it but mine are hard as heck to get out, I have to use pliars.

Now do you seriously think I didn't see the buttons and just yanked the cards out? I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm not that dumb.:D

I had one of the first S3's and at that time, as I stated, the cards were difficult to pull out. Yes, the buttons did push them out a bit but not enough for you to physically grab them and pull them out. This was talked about a great deal in the TiVo Forum at that time, so it wasn't just mine. Heck if you didn't push the buttons you probably would break the mechanisim that holds the cards in place.

The only cable cards I needed pliers for with 3 boxes were dented cable cards. The new cable cards with no dents go right in and out of my S3 boxes.

Does the Tivo let you delete the channels in the guide that you don't get? IOW, can I have the default guide show me only the channels I'm subscribed to?

Does the Tivo let you delete the channels in the guide that you don't get? IOW, can I have the default guide show me only the channels I'm subscribed to?

The guide can show all channels you receive (you tell it this in the channel settings menu item), or you can have it show your "favorite" channels (which are also set up in the channel settings menu).

There's a sort of "physical" mapping of QAM channels that all devices with clear QAM tuning support, including, I believe, TiVo. The channel number is based on the actual frequency where the QAM carrier is broadcast, run through a simple arithmetic forumula (which I don't know offhand), plus a subchannel number identifying which program in the MPEG Transport Stream in the QAM carrier at that frequency is desired. At one point, while waiting for CableCARD installation, I was able to tune local channel rebroadcasts using numbers like "74-3" (where the "-" is entered with the TiVo "->|" button--on my remote it has a dash in parenthesis above it). I was even able to set up manual recordings of the channels. The cable companies move the channels around as they please, which is why TiVo doesn't support them in their guide data.TiVo falls back to the QAM channel numbering you describe, but it also supports decoding of PSIP data in the channel stream which, if present, causes that channel to get mapped to wherever PSIP tells it to (generally the OTA channel number). So, if proper PSIP data is present, all clear QAM channels show up at the same channel numbers as they would if received by antenna. Note: TiVo still doesn't provide guide data, even in this case.

The trouble is... as michaelscott points out... is that the cableco can move those channels at will. A cablecard would know immedietly when this happens, while a person who manually maps wouldlt know until their favorite program turned out to be a shopping channel or some other crap... and of course blame TiVo .Keep in mind that the currently-supported method of manually recording clear QAM channels is just as susceptible to cableco remapping. Providing guide data, or not, doesn't change that situation.

If TiVo were that concerned about the effect of cableco remapping on scheduled recordings, they would have removed support for even manually recording them. Indeed, one would expect complaints to TiVo to decrease, not increase, if they completed their half-hearted support for clear QAM recording.

The guide can show all channels you receive (you tell it this in the channel settings menu item), or you can have it show your "favorite" channels (which are also set up in the channel settings menu).

TiVo has both. You can select the channels you want to see in the settings/channels mode by removing the check next to unwanted channels, and it also allows you to set up favorites. You can do this by bringing up the channel guide and pressing the info key.

Keep in mind that the currently-supported method of manually recording clear QAM channels is just as susceptible to cableco remapping. Providing guide data, or not, doesn't change that situation.

If TiVo were that concerned about the effect of cableco remapping on scheduled recordings, they would have removed support for even manually recording them. Indeed, one would expect complaints to TiVo to decrease, not increase, if they completed their half-assed support of clear QAM recording.

Scsiraid is exactly correct, to do it they way you describe would cause complete confusion and the only reason you or anyone would want this is to obtain digital and HD television without paying the extra price. Thank God that will never happen.

Scsiraid is exactly correct, to do it they way you describe would cause complete confusion and the only reason you or anyone would want this is to obtain digital and HD television without paying the extra price. Thank God that will never happen.

The local HD channels are included with any cable package. Right now I'm picking up mine through a QAM tuner with a basic cable package. I can't pick up the locals in HD off an antenna since I don't get good reception where I live. I don't care about any other HD channels except for the locals. I'm looking at getting an HD TiVo to record them. However, it looks like I may have to get some CableCards if I go this route.

It's unfortunate, because I just want to record my local HD channels and some SD cable channels. I have a feeling if I request CableCards, I'm going to be required to subscribe to a digital package of some sort and I don't want to do this.

Scsiraid is exactly correct, to do it they way you describe would cause complete confusion and the only reason you or anyone would want this is to obtain digital and HD television without paying the extra price. Thank God that will never happen.You do realize that local HD programming cannot, by law, require anything more than the most basic tier of service? Nobody is trying to record anything they aren't paying for and legally entitled to.

I can't pick up the locals in HD off an antenna since I don't get good reception where I live.You are not alone; it's estimated that 36% of households in the U.S. cannot get good OTA reception for at least one local network provider. That's around 50 million households; a huge group that TiVo could market to if only TiVo would fully support clear QAM recording (they already support clear QAM recording in the form of manual recordings; the only thing missing is the guide data).

The trouble is... as michaelscott points out... is that the cableco can move those channels at will. A cablecard would know immedietly when this happens, while a person who manually maps wouldlt know until their favorite program turned out to be a shopping channel or some other crap... and of course blame TiVo .

Quoted for truth.

Sorry, Brian Miller, but all you've done is bring the needless griping and hand-wringing that occurs regularly on TCF over here. Simply not a productive avenue to take...

The fact is completely summed up in the quote above. TiVo (and Tribune, BTW) gets little to no notification from the cableco's when they decide to remap channels/frequencies. How in the world is TiVo (and Tribune) supposed to map guide data to a possibly moving target ?

Please don't say "well, ummm, the users could do it!". TiVo's motto has always been one of simplicity of design and function. They will always strive to implement functions that make things EASIER for a user, not require them to jump through multiple hoops (CableCARD interactions with the cableco notwithstanding).

Same reasoning goes behind the decision to not include a Free Space Indicator (try telling your parents or grandparents about the fun of variable bitrate recordings).

Same reasoning goes behind their decision to take their time in getting advanced wishlists implemented (try telling your parents or grandparents about the fun of boolean logic).

Another factor is that I'll wager that TiVo has figured out that there simply aren't enough folks who'd want that feature to even warrant putting any engineering/test time against it. They only have so many engineers to go around, and in this case, it's not worth their while.

reports on dbstalk of Tivo and Directv getting back together for a new Directv Tivo powered HD DVR second half of 2009.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138443

TiVo has figured out that there simply aren't enough folks who'd want that feature to even warrant putting any engineering/test time against it.Thanks for the constructive dialog Paul, and I respect your opinion. Not everyone will agree that this is a useful feature to them. But please do consider these facts:

The current method of manually recording clear QAM channels is just as susceptible to cableco remapping (and subsequent bad recordings). Providing guide data has no effect on the impact of cableco remapping.
There are ways the TiVo could detect and automatically account for cableco remapping, but that is a separate issue.
The market of people who only want to record local HD was large enough for TiVo to include support for OTA recording (ATSC tuners) and appropriate guide data.
Of the people in #3, 36% cannot use antennas to pick up all their local HD channels. Thus, TiVo addressed 64% of that group with OTA recording. TiVo left 36% on the table. If the 64% segment was large enough to justify TiVo including support for OTA recording, then the 36% segment is certainly large enough to justify TiVo providing guide data for clear QAM recording.
Anything that increases the TiVo subscriber base benefits all TiVo users; it contributes to a financially stable company. TiVo is bleeding subscribers badly and is heading into another quarter with an expected loss (a bad one). TiVo needs every sub they can get.

The notion that TiVo's failure to include QAM channels in its cable guide is contributing to TiVo's financial problems , although the upper tier version of those channels are listed, is, to put it gently, unconvincing. Anybody who takes that kind of thing seriously enough to worry about it needs to replace their TiVo with a cable company owned DVR and let us know how that works out for them.

reports on dbstalk of Tivo and Directv getting back together for a new Directv Tivo powered HD DVR second half of 2009.
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138443

Wow. I was hoping that the departure of Uncle Rupert from DirecTV would allow TiVo and DirecTV to get back into bed, and it's finally come to fruition. Congrats to both of them. If they can recapture the same magic that the DirecTiVo had, they'll have a winner on their hands, to the benefit of both companies.

Anybody who takes that kind of thing seriously enough to worry about it needs to replace their TiVo with a cable company owned DVRA great idea, but of course no cable company makes a DVR available for clear QAM recording. The only solutions that support clear-QAM recording (sans CableCARDs) are TiVo, the old Sony DVRs, and Microsoft Media Center Edition. The latter two both support guide data on clear QAM channels (TiVo is alone in lacking this feature), but the Sony models are discontinued and MCE isn't for everybody. TiVo could practically own this market, but they've chosen to provide only very weak support for it.
The notion that TiVo's failure to include QAM channels in its cable guide is contributing to TiVo's financial problems [...] is unconvincing.Do you think that OTA-only customers benefit TiVo financially? (Hint: TiVo must think so.) If so, then why wouldn't a group that is half as large (http://www.dmwmedia.com/news/2004/09/21/report-digital-tv-transition-has-long-way-to-go)?

A great idea, but of course no cable company makes a DVR available for clear QAM recording. The only solutions that support clear-QAM recording (sans CableCARDs) are TiVo, the old Sony DVRs, and Microsoft Media Center Edition. The latter two both support guide data on clear QAM channels (TiVo is alone in lacking this feature), but the Sony models are discontinued and MCE isn't for everybody. TiVo could practically own this market, but they've chosen to provide only very weak support for it.
Do you think that OTA-only customers benefit TiVo financially? (Hint: TiVo must think so.) If so, then why wouldn't a group that is half as large?

The cableco's DVR does record clear and encrypted QAM.

The bottom line of this contretemps to me is that the TiVo software is so superior to that used by any cable company that it laps the field. Thus, quibbling over something as trivial as the absence of QAM mapping from the TiVo software and blaming TiVo's financial problems on it simply makes no sense to me. If the TiVo software is widely deployed on cable company owned boxes and works anywhere nearly as well as it does on TiVo's own boxes, I am convinced that the company's financial condition will improve markedly -- even if the software doesn't map QAM channels. :)

Originally Posted by paule123
DIRECTV and TiVo to Launch New HD DIRECTV DVR with TiVo Service
Wednesday September 3, 7:00 am ET

EL SEGUNDO and ALVISO, Calif., Sept. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- DIRECTV, Inc. (Nasdaq: DTV - News), the nation's leading satellite television service provider, and TiVo Inc. (Nasdaq: TIVO - News), the creator of and a leader in television services for digital video recorders (DVR), announced today that they have extended their current agreement, which includes the development, marketing and distribution of a new HD DIRECTV DVR featuring the TiVo® service, as well as the extension of mutual intellectual property arrangements.


http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=138443

Wow. I was hoping that the departure of Uncle Rupert from DirecTV would allow TiVo and DirecTV to get back into bed, and it's finally come to fruition. Congrats to both of them. If they can recapture the same magic that the DirecTiVo had, they'll have a winner on their hands, to the benefit of both companies.
It's great news, and like you, it's something that I always thought would happen after Liberty took control of D*, it just made too much sense not to, Liberty has a win-win with this one, and so does D*'s customers.

Discussion of the clear QAM support issue is pretty much useless venting. TiVo listens at TCF and has heard endless arguments in favor of it. They've weighed the issues and decided not to provide that support, particularly since people interested only in the clear QAM channels can get TiVo guide data by merely leasing a CableCARD. Even if they couldn't, it doesn't matter--TiVo has decided what they're going to do for that tiny market segment and at this point they're unlikely to change their minds.

Discussion of the clear QAM support issue is pretty much useless venting. TiVo listens at TCF and has heard endless arguments in favor of it. They've weighed the issues and decided not to provide that support, particularly since people interested only in the clear QAM channels can get TiVo guide data by merely leasing a CableCARD. Even if they couldn't, it doesn't matter--TiVo has decided what they're going to do for that tiny market segment and at this point they're unlikely to change their minds.

Paul hit the nail on the head. Keep it simple. I know don't know anything about QAM. Heck if it wasn't for Paul I'd still be stuck with TiVo Desktop.

By the way I did another clean install of Zone Alarm today and Windows Firewall rudely activated itself. I spent an hour and a half trying to figure out what was wrong then I restarted pyTiVo and WINDOWS Firewall came up and said, "Do you want this to be used?"

The nerve of Microsoft. I never told Windows to use their stupid firewall.

And as far as that argument about HD is free for everybody, that's for everybody who PAYS for digital service. HD is digital. It's not mandated to be free for people who have basic cable. It's free over the air. And the reason they keep moving the channels around is because they don't want people with QAM getting a digital signal and not paying for it.

Paul hit the nail on the head. Keep it simple. I know don't know anything about QAM. Heck if it wasn't for Paul I'd still be stuck with TiVo Desktop.

What am I, the pyTivo Pied Piper ? :)


And as far as that argument about HD is free for everybody, that's for everybody who PAYS for digital service. HD is digital. It's not mandated to be free for people who have basic cable. It's free over the air. And the reason they keep moving the channels around is because they don't want people with QAM getting a digital signal and not paying for it.

Actually, I believe that the cableco's are obligated (or mandated) by law (or regulation) to carry any channels that are available OTA, and that you should not be charged additionally to receive them. Not 100% sure, but I believe that to be true.

I also don't believe that they maliciously re-map the QAM assignments out of spite for the "freeloaders". They may have a dynamic allocation system in place, or may be re-organizing things to make more effective use of the available bandwidth they have on hand at the time. To think otherwise it a likely attempt at painting the cableco's (who I really don't have a great deal of love for, BTW) with too broad an evil-colored brush.

In my case, I'm about 40 miles from the two main Boston towersm, which shouldn't pose too many problems for OTA reception. However, the geography between them and my home is somewhat bumpy and hilly, so OTA reception is non-trivial to out of the question (depending upon the weather and other factors). Add in the enormous trees that grow around my house, preventing satellite reception, and you'll quickly see that I'm effectively locked into cable service.

A great idea, but of course no cable company makes a DVR available for clear QAM recording. The only solutions that support clear-QAM recording (sans CableCARDs) are TiVo, the old Sony DVRs, and Microsoft Media Center Edition.There are plenty of HTPC solutions that support clear QAM recording, either with internal tuner cards or the HD Homerun. Myth, Sage, BeyondTV, and GBPVR all come to mind, and all allow you to map the channels to the actual ones in the guide.

Tivo doesn't want to support clear QAM mapping because it's too complicated for the average user. Hell I have a hard enough time figuring out what frequency Comcast occasionally moves them to with my Myth box. That wouldn't be the case if the cableCo's passed through the PIDs from the OTA channels in the streams so your TV or Tivo could see that QAM channel 102.84 is really CBS channel 5-1. For some reason the FCC has never beaten them up about this even though I think they're not allowed to strip the PIDs.

What am I, the pyTivo Pied Piper ? :)




Actually, I believe that the cableco's are obligated (or mandated) by law (or regulation) to carry any channels that are available OTA, and that you should not be charged additionally to receive them. Not 100% sure, but I believe that to be true.



Let's just say you call TW on the phone. Hello, I just got an HD television set. I have lifeline basic and my televison has qam modulation. I want to receive the HD channels that I'm entitled to.

Sir, here (http://www.twclineup.com/lineups0208/TWNEO5935SuburbanCleveland3MigrationLU022008.pdf) is our list of channels we provide. As you can see by the Adobe Listings that are on page two you get these channels for your basic line up. If you wish to you can purchase our expanded basic which includes Big 10 Network.

However if you will notice Sir, High Definition is under the banner of Digital Service. Not Basic Service. Not Expanded. You will need to purchase digital service.

Now before any of you start pointing out the color codes to me and the duplicate channels on the digital tier, they are analog mirrors. You will also notice that the only HD channels that are not colored are the ones that are on the expanded HD. So you should get ESPN HD free too? I don't think so.

I don't believe that the cable companies are required by law to give local HD without digital service. They are required to have these channels be copied freely 0x00. But that's it.

And yes, you are my pyTiVo guru. Thank you. But you just happen to be wrong about HD locals.

I don't believe that the cable companies are required by law to give local HD without digital service. They are required to have these channels be copied freely 0x00. But that's it.Wrong, Hook. The cable providers are required by Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, §76.901 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a41a2c13d19b01ef58d1a4c1ef2feb8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.14.3.1&idno=47)(a) to carry any rebroadcast of a local transmission as part of the basic services tier:
(a) Basic service. The basic service tier shall, at a minimum, include all signals of domestic television broadcast stations provided to any subscriber (except a signal secondarily transmitted by satellite carrier beyond the local service area of such station, regardless of how such signal is ultimately received by the cable system) any public, educational, and governmental programming required by the franchise to be carried on the basic tier, and any additional video programming signals a service added to the basic tier by the cable operator.CFR Title 47, §76.630 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a41a2c13d19b01ef58d1a4c1ef2feb8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.11.3.14&idno=47)(a) requires that everything in the basic tier be carried in the clear:
§76.630 Compatibility with consumer electronics equipment.
(a) Cable system operators shall not scramble or otherwise encrypt signals carried on the basic service tier.(It goes on to explain how to apply for a waiver if you can prove substantial incidence of theft of basic cable service, but I don't think that anyone's ever been granted one--probably no one has applied since addressable switches for turning basic on and off came into common use).

CFR Title 47, §76.640 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a41a2c13d19b01ef58d1a4c1ef2feb8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.11.3.15&idno=47)(b)(1)(iv) requires that they put proper PSIP loops in transport streams which contain digital channels carried in the clear. This is a requirement that's so technical that it gets frequently violated, because to enforce it would require complaint from somebody technically astute enough to know that it's being violated.

People in AVS Forum have been using these regulations to force providers to unencrypt local broadcasts and provide them as part of basic service for several years now. It's been years since I've seen someone start a thread to complain that their provider is not broadcasting their local digital channels in the clear, though.

The cable providers are not required by law to carry both the digital and analog transmissions of any local broadcaster, but if they choose to carry any part of the digital transmission, it must be provided as part of the basic services tier (the lowest cost package, which everyone must buy to get any service) and nothing in the basic services tier may be encrypted. Regulations also require that they mark streams with clear digital channels with proper PSIP, but they too often fail to do this correctly.

Wrong, Hook. The cable providers are required by Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, §76.901 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a41a2c13d19b01ef58d1a4c1ef2feb8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.14.3.1&idno=47)(a) to carry any rebroadcast of a local transmission as part of the basic services tier:
CFR Title 47, §76.630 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a41a2c13d19b01ef58d1a4c1ef2feb8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.11.3.14&idno=47)(a) requires that everything in the basic tier be carried in the clear:
(It goes on to explain how to apply for a waiver if you can prove substantial incidence of theft of basic cable service, but I don't think that anyone's ever been granted one--probably no one has applied since addressable switches for turning basic on and off came into common use).

CFR Title 47, §76.640 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=2a41a2c13d19b01ef58d1a4c1ef2feb8&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.11.3.15&idno=47)(b)(1)(iv) requires that they put proper PSIP loops in transport streams which contain digital channels carried in the clear. This is a requirement that's so technical that it gets frequently violated, because to enforce it would require complaint from somebody technically astute enough to know that it's being violated.

People in AVS Forum have been using these regulations to force providers to unencrypt local broadcasts and provide them as part of basic service for several years now. It's been years since I've seen someone start a thread to complain that their provider is not broadcasting their local digital channels in the clear, though.

The cable providers are not required by law to carry both the digital and analog transmissions of any local broadcaster, but if they choose to carry any part of the digital transmission, it must be provided as part of the basic services tier (the lowest cost package, which everyone must buy to get any service) and nothing in the basic services tier may be encrypted. Regulations also require that they mark streams with clear digital channels with proper PSIP, but they too often fail to do this correctly.

I'm not wrong. And your interpretation of the law as I see it doesn't say anything more to me then what I have already said: local channels must be carried in the clear, which to me means no copy restricition., My chart shows absolute proof that my cable company does not offer HD channels without digital service.

My point isn't arguing the law. And the basic lowest price for carrying digital channels unencrypted is 5.00 above the price for basic plus.

Now is my cable company breaking the law? According to your interpretation they are. By mine, not at all.

Yes, if indeed your cable company is encrypting a rebroadcast of a local channel, and/or not providing it with basic service, whether it be digital or analog, they are in violation of FCC regulations. Any such rebroadcast must be part of the basic services tier and nothing in the basic services tier may be encrypted. If you were to make a complaint (to your cable company, by snail-mail, in writing, sending a copy to the FCC), the FCC would force your provider to give you rebroadcasts of local DTV in the clear as part of basic cable. I've watched and cheered this process on 3 or 4 times here in AVS Forum and every last such complaint was successful. Here in San Diego, Cox was initially encrypting their local rebroadcast and requiring "digital service" to receive them and backed down from that practice after subscriber complaints were lodged with officials (TWC always provided rebroadcast local DTV in the clear as part of basic cable, from the beginning).

The principle at work here is that the cable providers are not allowed to charge you extra for local free-to-air content, period. If you buy any cable service at all, you're supposed to receive any such content that they carry. They can charge you for equipment to tune it if you don't own a clear QAM tuner, but they can't charge you extra for access to the channels.

Though they occasionally move the stuff around, if they follow the requirement that they put PSIP loops in streams with clear digital channels, most equipment should detect that information and be able to keep track of where those channels are. Again, that requirement is so technically esoteric that it's hard to enforce.

Right now, I'm in a TWC system in north central San Diego (a neighborhood called Clairemont)--the clear QAM tuner in my television can tune all of the locals by virtual channels which match their OTA PSIP: 6-1 XETV (the CW), 69-1 KSWB (Fox), 39-1 KSND (NBC), 8-1 KFMB (CBS), 10-1 KETV (ABC), 15-1 KPBS (PBS) and 15-2 KPBS (V-Me). (I just checked all of those--most are broadcasting HD coverage of the RNC. I think there's a couple of other local independents that I don't know or care abut). They could move them to streams in other frequencies and as long as they kept those PSIP loops correct, those channel numbers should still work. I could tune all of the same stations on Cox when I lived up in Oceanside last year.

I don't believe that the cable companies are required by law to give local HD without digital service.Hook, that's completely and 100% wrong. Please, let's keep AVS clear and factual and not confuse people. You are getting confused by the fact that your cable company doesn't advertise these basic service tier HD channels, and that they may show up at different channel numbers than if you paid for digital service. Neither of which mean anything to this conversation.

FCC Sec. 76.901
The basic service tier shall, at a minimum, include all signals of domestic television broadcast stations provided to any subscriber ...

FCC Sec. 76.630
Cable system operators shall not scramble or otherwise encrypt signals carried on the basic service tier.

There are plenty of HTPC solutions that support clear QAM recording, either with internal tuner cards or the HD Homerun. Myth, Sage, BeyondTV, and GBPVR all come to mind, and all allow you to map the channels to the actual ones in the guide.Thanks for the additional options! I'd forgotten about those. But, this just shows that even more of TiVo's competition supports guide data for clear QAM channels...

And yes, I hear all of you about the fact that TiVo knows all of this and yet hasn't decided to add this feature, and it is thus unlikely to ever happen. I still hold out hope, however, that they will change their minds. I know they'd sell more boxes, and I know it would make a number of people happy. Those aren't bad things.

I also feel that in a world gone mad with DRM, clear QAM cable service is an important legal right that keeps a certain level of broadcast service available to even the poorer among us, as long as one can afford the (generally regulated) price of basic cable. I think it's important to fight cable's attempts to obfuscate and complicate this right, and TiVo support would go a long way toward encouraging the use of clear QAM cable.

Anything that increases the TiVo subscriber base benefits all TiVo users; it contributes to a financially stable company. Not necessarily. Whether it does or not depends substantially on the cost necessary to bring about that increase, including many costs that aren't obvious to those not intimately knowledgeable about the specific circumstances within the development organization.

HD is digital. It's not mandated to be free for people who have basic cable.Until February 2009. Simplifying this greatly: The mandate is to carry the analog channel, unless the broadcaster (broadcaster) is all-digital, in which case the mandate is to carry the digital channel. In February 2009, the vast majority of broadcasters will go from analog-digital to all-digital.

There is a separate requirement that requires carriage of the digital signal to subscribers of a (specifically) digital package. That, of course, becomes moot in February 2009. HD packages are real, and legal, otherwise the FCC wouldn't actually discuss them ("... in addition to the requirement that the cable operator pass through the HD signal to cable subscribers of an HD package ...").

Some people are choosing to read more into the mandates than is there -- reading some things more literally when that serves their interest, and less literally when that serves their interest.

And the reason they keep moving the channels around is because they don't want people with QAM getting a digital signal and not paying for it.There is no evidence of that.

Hook, that's completely and 100% wrong. Please, let's keep AVS clear and factual and not confuse people. You are getting confused by the fact that your cable company doesn't advertise these basic service tier HD channels, and that they may show up at different channel numbers than if you paid for digital service. Neither of which mean anything to this conversation.

I stated my interpretation of the law. For you to say "Please, let's keep AVS clear and factual etc." was not my intent. I didn't tell any lies or distortions.

The only thing I can see that I'm wrong about is what Bicker1 points out about moving QAM, that's pure speculation on my part so I could very well be wrong on that. And then there is the following:

Yes, if indeed your cable company is encrypting a rebroadcast of a local channel, and/or not providing it with basic service, whether it be digital or analog, they are in violation of FCC regulations. Any such rebroadcast must be part of the basic services tier and nothing in the basic services tier may be encrypted. If you were to make a complaint (to your cable company, by snail-mail, in writing, sending a copy to the FCC), the FCC would force your provider to give you rebroadcasts of local DTV in the clear as part of basic cable. I've watched and cheered this process on 3 or 4 times here in AVS Forum and every last such complaint was successful. Here in San Diego, Cox was initially encrypting their local rebroadcast and requiring "digital service" to receive them and backed down from that practice after subscriber complaints were lodged with officials (TWC always provided rebroadcast local DTV in the clear as part of basic cable, from the beginning).

This comes from my ignorance of QAM equipment, and I'm not sure who it was but I think someone the other day pointed out that new televisions do not have cable card slots anymore but are QAM equip. I believe that my cable company does not encode the signal because when I first got my S3 I was able to receive it without a guide or cable cards. So I get your point now.

So I would suppose that if you have a QAM television you would simply tell it to go to 8.1 for FOX in my area? I really need more education on that. The key to what you are telling me is my misunderstanding is encryption. I've got it now.

And my cable company, unfortunately, is not breaking the law. Yet.;) They have in the area before expansion gone to full digital with analog downgrade. In my area it's analog on local channels upgraded to digital. Looks terrible.

As you can see and slowbiscuit points out with all the stuff beyond TiVo I'm not one of the people who would want QAM. TiVo to me is complicated enough, I don't want it to be more complicated.

I didn't tell any lies or distortions.You've said, repeatedly, that cable companies are not required to provide local HD channels with basic cable service. That is wrong and really confuses people who come to AVS to learn.

Let me try to simplify it. "QAM" only refers to the format of all digital cable signals. Anything that can receive digital cable signals is a QAM tuner, including TiVo, cable company set top boxes, all new TVs, etc. You use QAM every day, whenever you tune to any digital cable channel on your TiVo.

A digital cable channel can be "hidden" from a cable customer by encrypting it. It can also be "hidden" by filtering out the frequency it is transmitted on. If it is encrypted, then the customer needs special hardware (like a CableCARD) to decrypt it. That hardware can be programmed by the cable company to only decrypt and make available certain channels, corresponding to the level of service being paid for.

The law states that if local HD channels are carried on cable, they cannot be "hidden" in any way. They must be available on the most basic tier of cable service. This is what is meant by the term "clear QAM". The channel number used to tune them can vary, and the TV or other equipment must scan for them to find them. But they must be there.

Usually, once you scan for them, they will show up at their over-the-air channel numbers (8.1 for Fox in your market). This is not always the case however. This ambiguity in the channel numbering, and the fact that the channel numbering can change over time (potentially requiring a rescan), is what is keeping TiVo from automatically providing guide data for them.

Note that the only thing CableCARDs do for these clear QAM channels is to provide consistent channel numbers for them. That is why TiVo currently requires CableCARDs in order to provide guide data for clear QAM channels.

You've said, repeatedly, that cable companies are not required to provide local HD channels with basic cable service. That is wrong and really confuses people who come to AVS to learn.Brian: It isn't wrong. There is a legitimate disagreement among reasonable people about it. And the fact is that some people, "who come to AVS to learn", encounter something other than what you feel is required, and get the mistaken impression from what you post that they're being swindled. Let's just agree to say that there is disagreement about this, and that if someone "who comes to AVS to learn" is confused about this, then they're not alone, and they shouldn't feel bad about being confused.

The law states that if local HD channels are carried on cable, they cannot be "hidden" in any way.No the law doesn't say that. You're simplifying, and leaving out important nuances to the law.

I can't wait until February, when this confusion should go away.

Brian: It isn't wrong. There is a legitimate disagreement among reasonable people about it. And the fact is that some people, "who come to AVS to learn", encounter something other than what you feel is required, and get the mistaken impression from what you post that they're being swindled. Let's just agree to say that there is disagreement about this, and that if someone "who comes to AVS to learn" is confused about this, then they're not alone, and they shouldn't feel bad about being confused.

No the law doesn't say that. You're simplifying, and leaving out important nuances to the law.

I can't wait until February, when this confusion should go away.

Thanks Bicker. And Brian, I think I'll just ignore you. I don't like your tone.

Thanks Bicker. And Brian, I think I'll just ignore you. I don't like your tone.Sorry you feel that way. I'm only presenting the exact text of FCC regulations, backed up by specific industry citations. I also note that there are proven instances where these laws have been used to sway large cable corporations to make local HD cable channels available on the basic service tier; in fact I don't know of a single cable market left where this isn't the case (please cite one if you can).

I'm sure both you and Bicker can present equally compelling citations from goverment and industry groups to back up your assertions that these laws are not clear and definitive. I was not aware that there was any goverment or corporate disagreement over their meaning anymore, and we look forward to seeing your references so we can have a scientific discussion.

Here is some of my data.

Law #1 (FCC Sec. 76.901 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr76.901.htm)):
The basic service tier shall, at a minimum, include all signals of domestic television broadcast stations provided to any subscriber.
Law #2 (FCC Sec. 76.630 (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/47cfr76.630.htm)):
Cable system operators shall not scramble or otherwise encrypt signals carried on the basic service tier.
FCC reaffirms the above regulations in the Broadcast Flag ruling (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-273A1.pdf):
"Section 76.630 of the Commission’s rules generally prohibits cable operators from “scrambl[ing] or encrypt[ing] signals carried on the basic service tier” without distinguishing between analog and digital service."
FCC reaffirms the above regulations in the Plug and Play ruling (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-225A1.pdf):
"Section 76.630 generally prohibits encryption of the basic tier"
EFF comments to the FCC (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-273A1.pdf):
"Based on our reading of the Commission’s rules, it appears that all basic tier services (whether analog or digital, and including all retransmitted over-the-air broadcasts) must remain unencrypted (i.e. “unscrambled”). The Commission has previously ruled that, at least in the must carry context, both digital and analog broadcast signals must be available in a single, unitary basic tier. The Commission’s rules further provide that all basic tier services must be unencrypted."

You misquoted Law #1. There is no period at the end. The sentence continues.

"The basic service tier shall, at a minimum, include all signals of domestic television broadcast stations provided to any subscriber ..."

That's not significant to this issue, but it just goes to show how much people may need to take what they read online with a grain of salt.

Beyond that, that statement is intended to require carriage of several channels when a broadcaster provides several channels. It is not intended to require duplicates of the same channel. In New Jersey, the public television system broadcast the same programming on a number of channels (all within the same DMA, the demarcation used, for good or ill, by the FCC to establish what must be carried and what need not be), but this statement only requires provision of one "copy".

And again, remember that there are regulations that explicitly talk about providing these HD channels for all subscribers of a "HD tier". Again, the FCC wouldn't require provision of these channels for subscribers of the "HD tier" unless they were NOT required as part of the basic tier.

A pedantically literal, and consumerist-biased interpretation, does not reflect the reality of the regulation. As with many things, context and what is logical, according to the standards of the industry, prevails, and beyond that, with this administration, such interpretations, the effective reality of what is and is not the regulation, is interpreted if not absolutely neutral, then surely in the pro-business direction. And with regard to the EFF's comment: You can be sure that it is almost always not what is required, but rather what they want. That's the EFF's purpose. They are a consumerist entity. Your mixing of their statements up with the text of the regulations is really part of the problem.

I do agree that they cannot encrypt anything on the basic tier. Too bad that the regulation doesn't require that these specific channels be on the basic tier.

Thanks for the rational discussion bicker1.

Here is the complete text from 76.901. It is the first section, under "Definitions", and as such does not appear to have any "context" that you say I am omitting.

Basic service. The basic service tier shall, at a minimum, include all signals of domestic television broadcast stations provided to any subscriber (except a signal secondarily transmitted by satellite carrier beyond the local service area of such station, regardless of how such signal is ultimately received by the cable system), any public, educational, and governmental programming required by the franchise to be carried on the basic tier, and any additional video programming signals a service added to the basic tier by the cable operator.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that there are those who claim that the term "signals" above only refers to either an analog SD channel or a digital/HD channel, but not both (where both are provided)? I'd like to know where specifically you have heard this interpretation...was it from armchair bloggers, or from an industry/government/legal organization? Can you please provide your reference to who is making this interpretation?

I didn't understand your New Jersey example. Are you saying that in that market, there are PBS channel(s) where the analog SD version is available in the basic cable tier, but the digital/HD version of the same is encrypted? Who is the specific MSO in this case?

And again, remember that there are regulations that explicitly talk about providing these HD channels for all subscribers of a "HD tier".
That's interesting, but I'll be darned if I can find it. Can you please cite the specific regulation?

Also, just to point out: this discussion of FCC regulations is interesting, but ultimately moot: whatever their state, they have been enough to force pretty much every MSO to put local HD channels on the basic service tier. I don't know of a single market where that isn't the case, but there might be some small municipal or rural MSO somewhere that isn't doing this. Certainly, the Big 5 (Cablevision, Charter, Comcast, Cox and Time Warner) who together serve 80% of the cable subscribers have all converged on the same interpretation and make local HD available on the basic service tier.

The big problem to solve now is PSIP over cable. It is inconsistent and sometimes manipulated by the MSO in odd ways. It's unfortunate that the FCC didn't mandate clearer PSIP regulations from the get-go, but last year I heard they were considering clarifying PSIP requirements over cable. Anybody heard any status on this? If PSIP over cable were made mandatory and consistent, it would be trivial for Tivo or Tribune Media Services to provide guide data for them.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that there are those who claim that the term "signals" above only refers to either an analog SD channel or a digital/HD channel, but not both (where both are provided)?Unique signals, i.e., signals that provide unique programming. I think you need to focus on the regulations that specifically require provision of HD channels for subscribers of specific HD tiers. Those regulations imply definitively the acceptability of charging extra for these HD channels.

I didn't understand your New Jersey example.In New Jersey, the same programming is broadcast on channels 50 and 58, in the New York DMA, and on channels 52 and 23, in the Philadelphia DMA. Cable systems are only required to carry one of the four channels, because all four carry the same programming.

I'd love to provide a direct citation, but I'm too busy.

And again, remember that there are regulations that explicitly talk about providing these HD channels for all subscribers of a "HD tier". Again, the FCC wouldn't require provision of these channels for subscribers of the "HD tier" unless they were NOT required as part of the basic tier.I'm sorry, but could you quote that regulation and find a pointer to the text of it online? I cannot find it and I'm certain that it's not part of Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, Part 76 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1004a91b9b661d9b2423428961efa8f2&rgn=div5&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4&idno=47) the FCC's regulations for "MULTICHANNEL VIDEO AND CABLE TELEVISION SERVICE". A cursory search of that reveals that "HD" occurs exactly 8 times, all in the same contiguous six paragraphs under CFR Title 47, §76.66 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1004a91b9b661d9b2423428961efa8f2&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.4.3.13&idno=47)(k), a section on satellite carriage of broadcast channels. The phrase "high definition" occurs exactly four times, once in the aforementioned satellite section, and three times as part of "high definition set-top box", in CFR Title 47, §76.640 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=1004a91b9b661d9b2423428961efa8f2&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.11.3.15&idno=47).

bicker, years ago a string of people came to these forums complaining that they'd bought clear QAM tuning televisions and STBs, but that their local cable provider was encrypting their rebroadcast of their local DTV channels. We counceled all of them to register complaints based on those regulations, in paper mail to the FCC, sending a copy to their cable providers' management and optionally one to their local cable franchising agency. In each and every case, the cable providers placed their local DTV rebroadcasts in the basic tier in the clear. It happened locally in San Diego with Cox--they originally placed their local DTV rebroadcasts in their "digital cable" tier, encrypting them such that you'd have to lease one of their boxes (a few years pre-CableCARD) and pay a "digital cable" fee to receive them. After complaints were lodged, they moved them. I can personally attest that they're all in the clear with basic service now--I tuned them with my television's tuner with a basic account with no "digital service".

The fact is that the digital transmissions are not "duplicates" of the analogs, even when the programming is the same. Look at the two signals on a scope and that much is abundantly clear. (One of my local DTV stations, KPBS, one of the first DTV broadcasters, has never carried a duplication of their analog station on their digital one, inasmuch as more than half of what they broadcast on the analog is unavailable in high definition, and they've always broadcast 24 hours of high definition on the DTV channel). Again, the FCC doesn't require the carriage of both the analog and digital signals, but if either or both is carried, they must be provided as part of the basic tier. (The notion of "dual must carry" was processed at length by the FCC, but they decided that it was a punitive demand on the cable providers' resources--they also declined to force cable to carry DTV subchannels. Forcing them to carry both is a different matter than the manner of carriage when they choose to carry both).

The EFF's reading of the regulations is correct (and agrees with me :))--note that the EFF, though it has a strong and very public agenda, is using actual lawyers to make that reading, not Internet forum yahoos like you and me.

This is a goofy argument based on hookbill's assumption that he can't tune his local DTV stations on his cable system, which I doubt is actually true. hookbill himself admits that QAM tuning mystifies him and I doubt that he's tried it. I haven't seen any provider advertise that you can tune their local DTV rebroadcasts with over-the-counter equipment and I feel certain that none of them has trained their phone service reps to help customers do it. They aren't required to do that and they don't have any business motive for it. If a customer thinks that he has to have a leased box or CableCARD to get local DTV rebroadcasts, it's in their best interest to let him keep thinking that. Customers who try to tune those channels with their own equipment who then contact them for help when they have problems are just a high-priced maintenance hassle--if I were a cable provider, I'd have my reps just say that they don't know anything about that and advise the customer to lease a digital STB.

I'm sorry, but could you quote that regulation and find a pointer to the text of it online?I'll try to, when I have time. I did have it bookmarked a while back. I'm really busy these days. I've had a death in the family this week, and I'm executor. That's why I'm reticent to commit to finding it anytime soon.

We counceled all of them to register complaints based on those regulations, in paper mail to the FCC, sending a copy to their cable providers' management and optionally one to their local cable franchising agency.And bad PR forces MSOs to do things much more so than regulations do, sometimes.

The opinionis that the digital transmissions are not "duplicates" of the analogsFixed your post. It isn't a fact. It is an opinion -- that's the point.

The EFF's reading of the regulations is correct (and agrees with me :))--note that the EFF, though it has a strong and very public agenda, is using actual lawyers to make that reading, not Internet forum yahoos like you and me.The EFF is little better than Consumerist. It is a wholly biased entity. It exists to push a specific political agenda. Its opinions hold no more significance than anyone else's.

This is a goofy argument based on hookbill's assumption that he can't tune his local DTV stations on his cable system, which I doubt is actually true.Regardless of hook's situation, there are places where you must subscribe to the HD tier to get the HD locals.

Again, bicker, where's your mythical regulation about the "HD tier"? I'm fairly certain that it doesn't exist. Please, prove me wrong. (EDIT: Sorry--I missed that you promised to find it in your previous post).

As for the existence of places where they're withholding DTV rebroadcasts from basic cable subscribers, while I'm willing to believe that that's true, I also believe that those places are in violation of FCC regulations and could be forced to change, if any subscriber cared enough to try.

Maybe we can have a "Regulations of the FCC" thread so we can get this one back to the TiVo STB?!

Again, bicker, where's your mythical regulation about the "HD tier"? I'm fairly certain that it doesn't exist. Please, prove me wrong.

As for the existence of places where they're withholding DTV rebroadcasts from basic cable subscribers, while I'm willing to believe that that's true, I also believe that those places are in violation of FCC regulations and could be forced to change, if any subscriber cared enough to try.

Ask CPanther95, moderator here at AVS, I'm almost certain that his cable company DOES NOT provide local HD in the clear, it requires an extra package/tier beyond a limited basic sub to view those channels.

Ask CPanther95, moderator here at AVS, I'm almost certain that his cable company DOES NOT provide local HD in the clear, it requires an extra package/tier beyond a limited basic sub to view those channels.

See that's my point. I'm not saying as michaelscott, whom I have the utmost of respect for, seems to think I'm saying that you CAN'T get it via QAM. I even asked him if you have a HDTV with QAM and basic cable, could you tune it in but punching in the correct channel, like around here FOX 8 is on 8.1 OTA. Still waiting for a response on that.

Speaking of FOX 8, when I first set up my S3 that is one local HD station that did not come in without the cable card. I couldn't find it anywhere.

And as my channel chart clearly shows HD is listed in the digital section. And I'm not trying to get into the thing of what's legal or not, I'm saying my cable company says you are suppose to have a package as keenan says that goes beyond basic and basic plus.

See that's my point. I'm not saying as michaelscott, whom I have the utmost of respect for, seems to think I'm saying that you CAN'T get it via QAM. I even asked him if you have a HDTV with QAM and basic cable, could you tune it in but punching in the correct channel, like around here FOX 8 is on 8.1 OTA. Still waiting for a response on that.Sorry--I somehow thought that I'd answered that. If your cable company does have its DTV rebroadcasts in the clear, and they set up PSIP loops in the MPEG transport streams on the QAM carriers where those channels live (as they're clearly required to do by the recently added plug-and-play regulations, but sometimes don't), they should be tunable using the same virtual channel number that you can use to tune them on the air. If they don't have those PSIP loops set up correctly, you would still be able to get to them if you knew where they were on channels based on the frequency of the QAM carrier and the program number of the channel in the stream (typically numbers like "73-4"); a digital tuner scan should find them (as well as all of the encrypted digital cable)--you could pick them out by tuning those channels one by one and seeing which were in the clear. Here, clear QAM tuner users keep lists of them on hdtv.forsandiego.com, though both Cox and Time Warner (my current provider) keep them properly labelled in PSIP.

PSIP loops are a series of repeated (looped) messages mixed in with the video and audio encodings in an MPEG Transport Stream. They contain information about the multiple programs in the stream--sort of a table of contents. PSIP stands for "Program and System Information Protocol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSIP)"-- you can read a Wikipedia article on the topic at that link.

As for CPanther95's cable provider being one who charges for rebroadcast local DTV, I don't doubt that that may be true. Many if not most providers chose to do it that way initially. The question is whether any of their subs challenged that practice with the proper authorities. They can break FCC regulations all they want and the FCC won't take action until someone complains (or they themselves notice, but this isn't something that they'd monitor). Most people technical enough to understand the use of clear QAM tuners are also people who'd be subscribed to digital cable for the increase in choice. I have to think that the group of people to whom this really matters is tiny, which is one reason why TiVo doesn't choose to support them.

In New Jersey, the same programming is broadcast on channels 50 and 58, in the New York DMA, and on channels 52 and 23, in the Philadelphia DMA. Cable systems are only required to carry one of the four channels, because all four carry the same programming.Then that's a must-carry issue, and has nothing to do with encrypted vs unencrypted transmission. Nobody is saying cable companies must carry anything, including HD/digital locals. But if they choose to, they must be unencrypted. Let's not put up straw-man arguments.

Sorry--I somehow thought that I'd answered that. If your cable company does have its DTV rebroadcasts in the clear, and they set up PSIP loops in the MPEG transport streams on the QAM carriers where those channels live (as they're clearly required to do by the recently added plug-and-play regulations, but sometimes don't), they should be tunable using the same virtual channel number that you can use to tune them on the air. If they don't have those PSIP loops set up correctly, you would still be able to get to them if you knew where they were on channels based on the frequency of the QAM carrier and the program number of the channel in the stream (typically numbers like "73-4"); a digital tuner scan should find them (as well as all of the encrypted digital cable)--you could pick them out by tuning those channels one by one and seeing which were in the clear. Here, clear QAM tuner users keep lists of them on hdtv.forsandiego.com, though both Cox and Time Warner (my current provider) keep them properly labelled in PSIP.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I wonder how come I couldn't get 8.1 on my S3 without cable cards? That was the only channel. I did ask QAM people where it was but I didn't see it on the location (s) they gave me when I looked.

As for CPanther95's cable provider being one who charges for rebroadcast local DTV, I don't doubt that that may be true. Many if not most providers chose to do it that way initially. The question is whether any of their subs challenged that practice with the proper authorities. They can break FCC regulations all they want and the FCC won't take action until someone complains (or they themselves notice, but this isn't something that they'd monitor).

I don't suspect that the FCC is going to do much about anything. They did slap Hawaii on the wrist recently, and then there is this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6639895#post6639895) from that other forum. Yes, different subject but still I think it shows the attitude of the FCC.

Most people technical enough to understand the use of clear QAM tuners are also people who'd be subscribed to digital cable for the increase in choice. I have to think that the group of people to whom this really matters is tiny, which is one reason why TiVo doesn't choose to support them.

OK put me int the category of "not understanding" for the purpose of my response even though I do understand better now. I subscribe to digital cable for one reason only: So that I can have more HD Channels. For the most part I don't even look at any of the stuff digital channels offer with the exception of "Skins" on BBC America. Everything else I watch is in HD.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I wonder how come I couldn't get 8.1 on my S3 without cable cards? That was the only channel. I did ask QAM people where it was but I didn't see it on the location (s) they gave me when I looked..

Did you do a 'channel scan' before you tried 8.1? The tuner has to find the physical channel and interpret the PSIP data to know that 8.1 exists.

Maybe we can have a "Regulations of the FCC" thread so we can get this one back to the TiVo STB?!
Amen....this is ridiculous.

I don't suspect that the FCC is going to do much about anything. They did slap Hawaii on the wrist recently, and then there is this (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6639895#post6639895) from that other forum. Yes, different subject but still I think it shows the attitude of the FCC.As you say, different subject, totally different. The effect of SDV on Unidirectional Digital Cable Ready products is lamentable, but it's very difficult to argue that cable has much choice--they have to add HD content to remain competitive. And, in truth, there's nothing in the regulations that would prohibit the use of SDV.

The issue of placing all rebroadcasts of over-the-air television in the basic tier is something else altogether and much closer to the core of FCC concerns. If the cable providers fail to comply with the things that they've put in place to ensure the smooth transition to digital television (near-and-dear to the hearts of Congress, who expect it to reap billions from the auction of the freed spectrum) they will swiftly act to put things right, and have done so in the past. As I stated in previous posts, when DTV first started to be rebroadcast on cable, several people came here when they couldn't tune their locals with the clear QAM tuners they'd purchased and we directed them to make complaints to the FCC. I recall that at least some of them reported receiving letters of support from the FCC before the matter was resolved.

Of course, that was years back and they may have changed their stance since then--they do that sometimes :rolleyes:. However, I haven't heard any report online of people complaining that they were locked out of tuning rebroadcast DTV on clear QAM tuning equipment who complained to the authorities who didn't get a satisfactory result. If anyone knows of someplace where this happened, I'd love to hear about it.

hookbill--you said that you received information from people in your system as to the location of the DTV rebroadcasts. Does this mean that you know people in your system who have tuned the rebroadcasts with clear QAM tuners?

Did you do a 'channel scan' before you tried 8.1? The tuner has to find the physical channel and interpret the PSIP data to know that 8.1 exists.

bierboy we are on topic now. Yes, I did do the scan first. I don't know why my S3 didn't pick it up.

I don't recall if I did that with TiVo HD. I had cards installed rather quickly after shooting off a letter complaining to Steve Fry who is President of TW NEO.

hookbill--you said that you received information from people in your system as to the location of the DTV rebroadcasts. Does this mean that you know people in your system who have tuned the rebroadcasts with clear QAM tuners?

I think you are confusing what I said. I gave a link showing that Direct TV is once again going to start using TiVo Software with full TiVo capabilities.

And yes, I know people in my area who have clear QAM tuners. They often talk about where stations have moved to, and they have attempted to educate me a bit about QAM.

Once again staying on topic I just would prefer TiVo the way it is without QAM, but I suppose I can see where some of you guys might prefer it. I know sometimes they find things that are being tested or getting ready to introduce.

And to the guys who are complaining about this discussion, sorry, but the reality of it is we started talking about TiVo and QAM. This led into the technical discussion of QAM then we got off topic on the HD thing. I apologize for heading in that direction.

I got this a few days ago but I don't believe I've seen any discussion.

And now there is this (https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxdetails.do?boxName=tivohdxl&boxsku=R65800):

The ultimate HD cable DVR with extra large recording capacity.

THX® certified for premium audio and video quality

Save up to 150 hours of HD programming at a time.

Control cable TV with pause, rewind, fast-forward, and slow-motion.

Record two shows at once in HD.

Replace your cable box using one or more CableCard™ decoders available from your cable company.

Works with digital and analog cable; digital and analog antenna.

Satellite NOT supported.Digital Transition ready.Product details

Product features:

Automatically record every episode of your favorite shows.

Search for shows and schedule recordings from tivo.com.

Download thousands of new release movies.

Search for HD shows by keyword, actor, title, or sports team.

Transfer recorded shows to your computer or portable media player with TiVo Desktop software. (I use pyTiVo)

Play music from your computer or the Internet.

Display only the programs and channels that you pre-approve for your kids with TiVo KidZone.

Phone line: Connects to an existing home phone line, unless you connect an Ethernet cable to (G) or the TiVo wireless adapter to (H).

Digital audio: Connects to your home theater system for digital sound using an optical digital audio cable. (Sold separately)

S-Video out: Connects to a TV for a high-quality standard definition picture. It does not support high definition. Requires connecting a separate cable for audio.

Component video out: Connects to a TV for a high definition picture. Requires connecting a separate cable for audio.

Composite video and stereo out: Connects to a TV for a standard definition picture. Use only the white and red cables if all you need is audio for a different video source, like S-Video or Component video.

HDMI out: Connects to a TV, A/V receiver, or home theater system for a pure digital connection that provides HD video and digital audio all in one cable.

Ethernet: Connects to an Ethernet cable to allow your DVR to access your home network and your broadband Internet connection.

2 USB ports: Connects to the TiVo wireless adapter if you want to wirelessly connect to your home network and broadband internet connection.

E-SATA: Connects to the My DVR Expander to increase recording capacity.

Cable In: Connects to the coaxial cable in your wall that provides your cable TV programming.Antenna in:

Connects to the coaxial cable from a TV antenna in order to receive analog and digital broadcasts (including HD programming) over the air.

So, the TiVoHD XL is essentially the existing TiVoHD with a 1TB hard drive, a Glo remote, and is now THX certified. Kind of a steep price, considering that the sum of the wholesale costs of the newer components (hard drive @ $100, Glo remote at $30) don't really equate to such a large price increase.

IMHO anyone would be somewhat foolish to get one of these at this cost. You can buy your own remote and internal hard drive for much less.

As crazy as I have always been about my TiVos, going back to 2000, I am underwhelmed by the TiVoHD XL, particularly its extortionate price. The box itself is $600, which seems VERY excessive by modern standards but the $400 price for a lifetime subscription made my hair stand on end. At a monthly cost of $40 that would take 33.33 years to amortize itself. What's wrong with this picture?

I keep hoping and praying that the Cox-TiVo deal finally gets implemented and I can get TiVo software on one of Cox's boxes. That looks like the only way TiVo will be able to keep me. In the meantime, I'll be all right as long as my 2 year old S3 holds out. If the new DirecTV-TiVo deal gets done that may be what it takes for D* to finally get me.

So, the TiVoHD XL is essentially the existing TiVoHD with a 1TB hard drive, a Glo remote, and is now THX certified. Kind of a steep price, considering that the sum of the wholesale costs of the newer components (hard drive @ $100, Glo remote at $30) don't really equate to such a large price increase.

IMHO anyone would be somewhat foolish to get one of these at this cost. You can buy your own remote and internal hard drive for much less.

YOU certainly can.:) There are others in this world who may not feel so comfortable about doing that. Like me.:o

As you said recently Paul TiVo is keeping it simple. Expensive? Well, I paid 900.00 for my S3 and another 150.00 for my 500 gb eSATA. Comparing what I paid then as to now, this to me is a bargain.

Do I feel foolish for spending all that money? Absolutely not. I paid it gladly to get rid of that piece of crap that was sitting in my living room.

As crazy as I have always been about my TiVos, going back to 2000, I am underwhelmed by the TiVoHD XL, particularly its extortionate price. The box itself is $600, which seems VERY excessive by modern standards but the $400 price for a lifetime subscription made my hair stand on end. At a monthly cost of $40 that would take 33.33 years to amortize itself. What's wrong with this picture?

I keep hoping and praying that the Cox-TiVo deal finally gets implemented and I can get TiVo software on one of Cox's boxes. That looks like the only way TiVo will be able to keep me. In the meantime, I'll be all right as long as my 2 year old S3 holds out. If the new DirecTV-TiVo deal gets done that may be what it takes for D* to finally get me.

I loved my Direct-TiVo. Back then it had dual recording when regular TiVo's didn't and it was only 4.95 a month for service.

But with my line of site situation, that won't happen.

I am a bit surprised though counselor about the fact that you are lamenting the price. Think back to what we use to have. Is it THAT bad of a deal?

I loved my Direct-TiVo. Back then it had dual recording when regular TiVo's didn't and it was only 4.95 a month for service.

But with my line of site situation, that won't happen.

I am a bit surprised though counselor about the fact that you are lamenting the price. Think back to what we use to have. Is it THAT bad of a deal?

Hook - I paid full retail for the S3 the day it came out, and I don't regret it one bit. It's been wonderful. Upgraded with a WeaKnees 750 internal and just recently added CableCARDS. I don't think the TiVo HD XL...whatever...is tremendously overpriced....I do think it's a bit high. But it'll come down soon....patience for anyone considering it.

Kind of a steep price, considering that the sum of the wholesale costs of the newer components ... don't really equate to such a large price increase. Basing prices on cost is a losers' proposition. It is like a 30 year old putting 100% of retirement savings into Money Market savings.

IMHO anyone would be somewhat foolish to get one of these at this cost. You can buy your own remote and internal hard drive for much less.You cannot just plop a new internal hard drive in though, and even if you could, you still need to do that hardware work. There is a value to having it delivered to you all upgraded. Of course, people who are good at that sort of thing can make a business out of getting the parts at just about wholesale and doing all the upgrade work themselves -- they can even charge others a premium for the service, and they'll probably be a bit less expensive than TiVo's packaged solution. And indeed, there are such services available.

At a monthly cost of $40 that would take 33.33 years to amortize itself. Uh, could you please post your math?

I loved my Direct-TiVo. Back then it had dual recording when regular TiVo's didn't and it was only 4.95 a month for service.

But with my line of site situation, that won't happen.

I am a bit surprised though counselor about the fact that you are lamenting the price. Think back to what we use to have. Is it THAT bad of a deal?
You will recall that nobody thinks more highly of TiVo's software than I do. It is in a class by itself, period. Nevertheless, CableCARD technology, or at least its implementation by Cox OKC, remains bug filled. Worse is the news that the new device to allow the S3s and HDs to decode SDV won’t allow them to receive PPV. That’s why I am so anxious for the Cox-TiVo deal to bear fruit. Unfortunately the bad experience with the TiVo software many of Comcast’s New England customers have had raises a lot of questions in my mind

You may have a point about prices, though. When the DirecTiVo was introduced it cost $1,000. Despite its extortionate price, I bought one for my son, which he loved and continues to use in conjunction with on of D*’s MP4 boxes. Later, I did pay a total of about $700 for my S3 and the right to transfer my S1’s lifetime subscription to it. That’s a lot less than $1,000, though.

I don’t know what I’ll do about TiVo once the time comes that my S3 isn’t as practical and useful as it is most of the time now. Still, I stand by my earlier comment that $400 for a lifetime subscription for the new HD XL is outrageous.

I don’t know what I’ll do about TiVo once the time comes that my S3 isn’t as practical and useful as it is most of the time now. Still, I stand by my earlier comment that $400 for a lifetime subscription for the new HD XL is outrageous.

First, sorry to hear about this problem with Cox and cable cards. But I think you may be wrong about the 400.00 for lifetime. I just recently looked and I can get a lifetime for 299.00.

I'm on a 3 year plan with the S3 which also has a 3 year warranty. I'm tempted to go lifetime but I worry about transfer on the lifetime should my TiVo die.

Then again since I bought it at Circuit City I'll probably have an opportunity to renew my protection.

The box itself is $600, which seems VERY excessive by modern standards but the $400 price for a lifetime subscription made my hair stand on end. At a monthly cost of $40 that would take 33.33 years to amortize itself. What's wrong with this picture?Um... your math. Try two years. ($1000 / $40/mo. = 25 mos. = 2 years, 1 mo.)

Um... your math. Try two years. ($1000 / $40/mo. = 25 mos. = 2 years, 1 mo.)

gwsat is a good guy give him a break. If you notice I refer to him as counselor because he's an attorney. I think he's retired.

Now I want to make an attorney joke but I'm not coming up with anything without being to offensive, so lets just say he knows how to make money, he may have a little trouble with budgeting. Perhaps he has an accountant.:)

Do you guys know if TiVo has ever make a box with RS-232 support? And if not, any thoughts on whether they might ever include it on a future TOTL STB?

I ask because many manufacturers are making more gear for home theater, custom-installation setups. Pioneer, for example, is offering new Kuros now that don't even include tuners. I'd like to see somebody, preferably TiVo, make a unit that is meant to be a high-end, robust tuner solution for integration into these kinds of setups. CableCard or Tru2way (or whatever the standard will be) and the stability and flexibility of serial control would be important parts of that recipe....

What am I missing here? I thought the cost of Tivo service was $12.95 per month. Where is this $40 figure coming from? Is this including the cost of the box somehow?

Do you guys know if TiVo has ever make a box with RS-232 support? And if not, any thoughts on whether they might ever include it on a future TOTL STB?

I ask because many manufacturers are making more gear for home theater, custom-installation setups. Pioneer, for example, is offering new Kuros now that don't even include tuners. I'd like to see somebody, preferably TiVo, make a unit that is meant to be a high-end, robust tuner solution for integration into these kinds of setups. CableCard or Tru2way (or whatever the standard will be) and the stability and flexibility of serial control would be important parts of that recipe....


High end wouldn't be RS232, you should be controlling everything from the home network in the 21st century.

High end wouldn't be RS232, you should be controlling everything from the home network in the 21st century.


Do you control your TV, receiver, disc spinners, etc., from your network? That's great. Tell me what remote system you're using when you watch TV, and I'll look into it. I get that you don't like my characterization, but do you have any response to my actual question? I'm just going by the protocols that most "high-end" control systems are using today. I didn't choose them. When there's another standard actually in use, I'll be there. :)

Do you control your TV, receiver, disc spinners, etc., from your network? That's great. Tell me what remote system you're using when you watch TV, and I'll look into it. I get that you don't like my characterization, but do you have any response to my actual question? I'm just going by the protocols that most "high-end" control systems are using today. I didn't choose them. When there's another standard actually in use, I'll be there. :)

It seems like all the automation equipment we install at work is now network controlled and I thought the ultra high end consumer equipment is too. Anyway that should be the future if commercial products are any indication.

It seems like all the automation equipment we install at work is now network controlled and I thought the ultra high end consumer equipment is too. Anyway that should be the future if commercial products are any indication.

I completely agree. I put everything I can on my home network! But consumer electronics appear to be far behind in this regard, and will probably continue to use dedicated remotes for quite some time. The best systems currently available still use RS-232 connections to actually interface with the equipment. Granted, it's an archaic connection, but I do find it to be far more reliable, stable, and flexible (i.e., better command sets) than comparable IR options. I'd love it if I could control my S3 this way.

I completely agree. I put everything I can on my home network! But consumer electronics appear to be far behind in this regard, and will probably continue to use dedicated remotes for quite some time. The best systems currently available still use RS-232 connections to actually interface with the equipment. Granted, it's an archaic connection, but I do find it to be far more reliable, stable, and flexible (i.e., better command sets) than comparable IR options. I'd love it if I could control my S3 this way.

TiVo doesn't support serial control (which I agree is an artifact of the 90's), but rather supports telnet control in the 9.3 and above releases. It completely replicates the IR control set, and was furnished as part of a Crestron/TiVo partnership that was reached last year sometime. wmcbrine has even written python modules and applications around this very feature, which is kind of slick. Some folks have even taken this feature and implemented it on the iPhone, so you can drive your TiVo with your iPhone, which I find extremely cool...

TiVo doesn't support serial control (which I agree is an artifact of the 90's), but rather supports telnet control in the 9.3 and above releases. It completely replicates the IR control set, and was furnished as part of a Crestron/TiVo partnership that was reached last year sometime. wmcbrine has even written python modules and applications around this very feature, which is kind of slick. Some folks have even taken this feature and implemented it on the iPhone, so you can drive your TiVo with your iPhone, which I find extremely cool...

This sounds intriguing (aside from the fact that my remote doesn't support telnet control as is :rolleyes:). Do you know where I can get more info about it? When I first read about it, it sounded like an exclusive protocol for Crestron systems. But if there's any chance to expand that to other setups, I'd like to pursue it.

I'm assuming that the ethernet port becomes the control connection. Do you have any idea how that co-exists with the TiVo's internet connection?

This sounds intriguing (aside from the fact that my remote doesn't support telnet control as is :rolleyes:). Do you know where I can get more info about it? When I first read about it, it sounded like an exclusive protocol for Crestron systems. But if there's any chance to expand that to other setups, I'd like to pursue it.

I'm assuming that the ethernet port becomes the control connection. Do you have any idea how that co-exists with the TiVo's internet connection?

I'll assume that your remote doesn't handle RS-232, so I don't see why this is more cumbersome than that rickety old control scheme.

All of the details are contained in this thread on TCF : TiVo control over telnet (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=392385)

You're right, it was developed as an integration effort with Crestron, but it's usable by anyone. Essentially, it opens up port 31339 for telnet access. Every control that's available via the remote is duplicated with telnet. It's really neat, except that you don't get enough information back from the TiVo to make it REALLY useful. For example, you can get into Now Playing, but you can "see" the contents of Now Playing to begin playback of a particular program.

I'll assume that your remote doesn't handle RS-232, so I don't see why this is more cumbersome than that rickety old control scheme.

All of the details are contained in this thread on TCF : TiVo control over telnet (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=392385)

You're right, it was developed as an integration effort with Crestron, but it's usable by anyone. Essentially, it opens up port 31339 for telnet access. Every control that's available via the remote is duplicated with telnet. It's really neat, except that you don't get enough information back from the TiVo to make it REALLY useful. For example, you can get into Now Playing, but you can "see" the contents of Now Playing to begin playback of a particular program.

Yeah, my remote does handle RS-232. This is why I was asking my original question about it. Thanks much for the info and links. I'll go research it some more. :)

Um... your math. Try two years. ($1000 / $40/mo. = 25 mos. = 2 years, 1 mo.)
I'm guilty, sorry about that. $400 for a lifetime subscription at $40 a month would actually amortize in 10 months, not 100. Decimals have never been my strong suit. :)

I'll assume that your remote doesn't handle RS-232, so I don't see why this is more cumbersome than that rickety old control scheme.

All of the details are contained in this thread on TCF : TiVo control over telnet (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=392385)

You're right, it was developed as an integration effort with Crestron, but it's usable by anyone. Essentially, it opens up port 31339 for telnet access. Every control that's available via the remote is duplicated with telnet. It's really neat, except that you don't get enough information back from the TiVo to make it REALLY useful. For example, you can get into Now Playing, but you can "see" the contents of Now Playing to begin playback of a particular program.

Well, I read about this a lot last night, and even played with it a bit. While it's kind of cool that you can make a TiVo interface for your iPhone, for example, those sorts of interfaces don't really have much application, since we already have a good standalone remote. I don't see how it can be readily integrated into existing universal remote systems though, since they don't use or even have telnet terminal functions.

Pioneer, for example, is offering new Kuros now that don't even include tuners. ....

woa, they've finally introduced their professional/industrial monitor line?!?! 'Bout time! :eek:

woa, they've finally introduced their professional/industrial monitor line?!?! 'Bout time! :eek:

I think the Signature series are meant for the custom-installation crowd. No tuner, no speakers, no stand; remote adjustment over network connection.

I think the Signature series are meant for the custom-installation crowd. No tuner, no speakers, no stand; remote adjustment over network connection.

I don't have any idea about what you are talking about or what the heck this has to do with TiVo. I don't own an iPhone, and I deliberately left my iPod in a hotel room in California.

I understand this is all got to do with one connection for all electronics because Paul said something about that a while back but I still prefer to use my TiVo to program.

Signature series? What the heck is it? No tuner, no speakers? Does it have a picture?

I'm getting to old to keep up with all this garbage. I want things simple.

I don't have any idea about what you are talking about or what the heck this has to do with TiVo. I don't own an iPhone, and I deliberately left my iPod in a hotel room in California.

I understand this is all got to do with one connection for all electronics because Paul said something about that a while back but I still prefer to use my TiVo to program.

Signature series? What the heck is it? No tuner, no speakers? Does it have a picture?

I'm getting to old to keep up with all this garbage. I want things simple.

:D Me too! It actually does have something to do with TiVo in that manufacturers are starting to recognize the reality that fewer and fewer of us use the internal tuners they build into their TVs. (Not by choice so much as by the muscle of cable & satellite companies.) They acknowledge with TVs like these Pioneers that we consumers are just going to select out own TV tuners, whether that's whatever the cable company gives us or something like TiVo for the more discerning crowd. ;)

Since there is a growing trend in this direction, my original question reflected my hope that TiVo recognizes this and tries to move into the opening that's emerging for a tuner/DVR for these custom installation setups. Right now, I think TiVo still markets all their products as cute, so-easy-anybody-can-use-them devices, and doesn't try to appeal to that high-end crowd. I'd love to see a "pro-level" TiVo; I think there's a growing market for something like that.

I thought that Crestron (http://www.crestron.com/features/applications/home/) was an industry leader in the fancy custom-installed, home automation field. The Telnet interface was part of TiVo integration with their system (see this (http://www.crestron.com/tools_and_resources/programming_and_integration_resources/integrated_partner_modules/default.asp?manufacturer_id=217)).

They can't integrate with every home automation system on the market. It wouldn't generate enough additional sales to pay for the work to create the integration or to maintain it.

I thought that Crestron (http://www.crestron.com/features/applications/home/) was an industry leader in the fancy custom-installed, home automation field. The Telnet interface was part of TiVo integration with their system (see this (http://www.crestron.com/tools_and_resources/programming_and_integration_resources/integrated_partner_modules/default.asp?manufacturer_id=217)).

They can't integrate with every home automation system on the market. It wouldn't generate enough additional sales to pay for the work to create the integration or to maintain it.

Agreed. But Crestron is actually a very narrow part of the custom market, and is a closed, proprietary system. Most users with custom remote systems are using something like Universal Remote, Philips Pronto, RTI, Nevo, and so on. All these systems use the same model: a remote communicates with an extender, which then interfaces with the individual components. The vast majority of these interfaces are RS-232 or hard-wired IR. (In fact, I don't know of any of them using Telnet over ethernet...) Using that interface would open the TiVo box to nice integration with any of these systems, rather than just the niche Crestron market.

Besides, the Crestron implementation is pretty hideous, IMHO. Very...1980s! :rolleyes:

http://www.crestron.com/downloads/integrated_partner_modules/sample_screens/541/tivo_series_3_hd_screen_01.jpg

I'm curious how widespread the use of SDV is right now, and specifically with Comcast systems? Are there any good resources on this, or can anyone give me an idea how much Comcast uses this technology right now?

I'm curious how widespread the use of SDV is right now, and specifically with Comcast systems? Are there any good resources on this, or can anyone give me an idea how much Comcast uses this technology right now?

To the best of my knowledge, Comcast has SDV in a few select test cities. I believe the number of cities is less than 5, but could be mistaken. They haven't really put out strong signals that it's an avenue that they're going to pursue agressively, but that is always subject to change.

Comcast has made a LOT more noise about their roll out of DTA's (digital terminal adapter) to aid in their analog reclamation scheme. Essentially, under their current plan, most of the analog channels go away and are replaced with digital versions. Folks who want to receive those channels in an analog fashion will be provided a low-cost ($25-50) no frills device that converts those digitals back to analog for use with older TV's, VCR's, etc.

This should allow them to reclaim 40-50 channels worth of analogs across the board for relatively short money. They reclaim the bandwidth without having to spend for SDV equipment, and also avoid any interoperability issues with older and/or CableCARD enabled devices. A win-win, in my book.

Agreed. But Crestron is actually a very narrow part of the custom market, and is a closed, proprietary system. Most users with custom remote systems are using something like Universal Remote, Philips Pronto, RTI, Nevo, and so on. All these systems use the same model: a remote communicates with an extender, which then interfaces with the individual components. The vast majority of these interfaces are RS-232 or hard-wired IR. (In fact, I don't know of any of them using Telnet over ethernet...) Using that interface would open the TiVo box to nice integration with any of these systems, rather than just the niche Crestron market.

You can take my Prontos when you pry them from my cold dead fingers! :)

Between the Prontos, my IR-enabled dimmer switches, and my Xantech IR distribution system, I'm set for system control. No need for fancy-pants, big-bucks Crestron systems. While those systems are nice, they're really a remnant of the early to mid 90's system integration, and vastly overpriced.


Besides, the Crestron implementation is pretty hideous, IMHO. Very...1980s! :rolleyes:

Stop! Stop! My eyes are burning! :) :) :)

Agreed. But Crestron is actually a very narrow part of the custom market, and is a closed, proprietary system. Most users with custom remote systems are using something like Universal Remote, Philips Pronto, RTI, Nevo, and so on. All these systems use the same model: a remote communicates with an extender, which then interfaces with the individual components. The vast majority of these interfaces are RS-232 or hard-wired IR. (In fact, I don't know of any of them using Telnet over ethernet...) Using that interface would open the TiVo box to nice integration with any of these systems, rather than just the niche Crestron market.The entire high-end home automation market is a niche--I'd guess that it must be far less than 1% of the potential TiVo product market. If you feel strongly about it, log a suggestion on TiVo's suggestion page (http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/). I can't believe that it'll land very far from the bottom of their list of potential new features, though.

I'm curious how widespread the use of SDV is right now, and specifically with Comcast systems? Are there any good resources on this, or can anyone give me an idea how much Comcast uses this technology right now?

To followup on what Paul just said, TW is the most aggresive however their rather lofty goal of having SDV everywhere by the end of 2008 now seems impossible.

To the best of my knowledge there are only 3 areas with "full blown" SDV. Hawaii, which just recently got a fine from the FCC for their implementation, Austin, and I've seen their channel list, I could live there with what they have with an S3 (that's me YMMV) and Buffalo, NY or somewhere in that area.

They have recently started some use in Columbus Ohio.

Here's the thing: Everybody has a bit of a misconception about how cable is using SDV. First, not every channel goes on SDV, i.e. in Austin Showtime HD is not on the list. Some are SDV/combo. Then there are just SDV channels.

Generally speaking channels that are just SDV are channels that are not watched a great deal. Hence the decision to conserve bandwith and make it SDV.

From what I know and my taste in television even without a tuner resolver I could live with their selections. Eventually the tuner resolver will become available. And from what I am understanding there will be no charge for the tuner resolver, at least from TW.

Now durig the "GREAT SDV SCARE" of 2007 everyone was saying all channels would be SDV. Simply not true.

So in summary if SDV is keeping you from buying a TiVo, don't let it.:)

Hook and Paul, thanks for the SDV info. Sounds like a non-issue for the most part.

Hook and Paul, thanks for the SDV info. Sounds like a non-issue for the most part.

Well, it is a non-issue, unless you're in an area that's had SDV rolled out in it.

Even then, TiVo and the cableco's have whipped up a solution to the problem (the "dongle" or tuning adapter) that should see the light of day very shortly. It's already passed CableLabs certifications, and the current TiVo software supports it. We're just waiting on the manufacturers (Cisco and Motorola) to make them available.

Well, it is a non-issue, unless you're in an area that's had SDV rolled out in it.

Even then, TiVo and the cableco's have whipped up a solution to the problem (the "dongle" or tuning adapter) that should see the light of day very shortly. It's already passed CableLabs certifications, and the current TiVo software supports it. We're just waiting on the manufacturers (Cisco and Motorola) to make them available.

What Paul says is correct but once again it kind of depends on what you want. Like I said even without the tuning adapter I think I could live with it. Here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316313&highlight=austin&page=101) is a list of what is available in Austin. Check it out and then you decide.

The entire high-end home automation market is a niche--I'd guess that it must be far less than 1% of the potential TiVo product market. If you feel strongly about it, log a suggestion on http://www.tkqlhce.com/image-3136390-10404294TiVo's suggestion page (http://www.tkqlhce.com/click-3136390-10404294?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fresearch.tivo.com%2Fsuggestions%2F ). I can't believe that it'll land very far from the bottom of their list of potential new features, though.

You think it's a non-issue and want me to drop it. Point taken.

But just to clarify, I never mentioned "home-automation," which is still in its infancy and doesn't interest me much either. I only spoke of the better, programmable remotes that many people use for their AV equipment. This is actually a significant chunk of TiVo's potential market, or could be.

Hi all,

I'm new to the TiVo world and have a couple more questions for you. (Thanks for the answers to my basic questions last week!)

Rather than get the XL, I'll probably get an S3 or HD version, then upgrade the drive to 750GB or 1TB.

I'm partial to getting the lifetime subscription, too...but am concerned that if the unit dies, I'll be out all of the $$$ for a lifetime subscription. Is this true?

When clicking around tivo.com, I noticed that (if I already have a TiVo) I can sign in to see if I qualify for a discount. What are the discounts?

My friend (has no account and doesn't use his TiVo anymore) has an old Series 2. He'll probably sell it to me for $10-20 if I want it. Would it be beneficial to buy it from him for the potential discount on the unit and the subscription? Is there any way to learn the discount that is offered?

Thanks,
Tim (not currently) in Hollywood

Hi all,

I'm new to the TiVo world and have a couple more questions for you. (Thanks for the answers to my basic questions last week!)

Rather than get the XL, I'll probably get an S3 or HD version, then upgrade the drive to 750GB or 1TB.

I'm partial to getting the lifetime subscription, too...but am concerned that if the unit dies, I'll be out all of the $$$ for a lifetime subscription. Is this true?

When clicking around tivo.com, I noticed that (if I already have a TiVo) I can sign in to see if I qualify for a discount. What are the discounts?

My friend (has no account and doesn't use his TiVo anymore) has an old Series 2. He'll probably sell it to me for $10-20 if I want it. Would it be beneficial to buy it from him for the potential discount on the unit and the subscription? Is there any way to learn the discount that is offered?

Thanks,
Tim (not currently) in Hollywood

From TiVo.com:

You can transfer any TiVo Service Payment Plan except Product Lifetime Service to another TiVo DVR at any time.



Want to transfer your Product Lifetime Service?

You can use Manage My Account to transfer Product Lifetime Service to another DVR only if:



You activated the DVR with Product Lifetime Service less than 30 days ago.The DVR was exchanged under warranty, either through the retailer or the manufacturer.The DVR

http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/customerservice/activateortransferservice/How_Do_I_Transfer_My_TiVo_Service_to_a_New_DVR_.html

Now having said that TiVo seems to change the rules when they introduce a new product. Many people with lifetime Direct TiVo service were able to transfer their subscription with a purchase of the S3.

Many people with lifetime Direct TiVo service were able to transfer their subscription with a purchase of the S3.Uh, if my memory serves me, the DirecTiVo lifetime subscribers were the only lifetime subscribers who were not able to transfer lifetime service to an S3.

You think it's a non-issue and want me to drop it. Point taken.

But just to clarify, I never mentioned "home-automation," which is still in its infancy and doesn't interest me much either. I only spoke of the better, programmable remotes that many people use for their AV equipment. This is actually a significant chunk of TiVo's potential market, or could be.I've dropped something between one and two thousand dollars on universal remotes over the years (Pronto, URC, Home Theater Master, Harmony, etc); wireless IR and/or RF remotes. I used to read the reviews at remotecentral.com to keep track of what's happening in that space. I have no idea what RS-232 (an ancient wired computer comm standard) has to do with remote controls, so the market for it's application in that space can't be too god awfully big.

Uh, if my memory serves me, the DirecTiVo lifetime subscribers were the only lifetime subscribers who were not able to transfer lifetime service to an S3.

That's my recollection as well.

That's my recollection as well.

Sorry then. I thought they allowed it.

But still the point is they do make exceptions to the rules.

I've dropped something between one and two thousand dollars on universal remotes over the years (Pronto, URC, Home Theater Master, Harmony, etc); wireless IR and/or RF remotes. I used to read the reviews at remotecentral.com to keep track of what's happening in that space. I have no idea what RS-232 (an ancient wired computer comm standard) has to do with remote controls, so the market for it's application in that space can't be too god awfully big.

You seem to want to argue a point, but I don't really get what it is. In any event, I'm not interested.

I was just asking TiVo users whether anyone has seen, or expects to see, any units with the typical CI control features. I didn't design these features or their implementation in AV gear- they are what they are. If you're not familiar with them, I'll take that as a "no." Thanks for your input.

I don't have any idea about what you are talking about or what the heck this has to do with TiVo. I don't own an iPhone, and I deliberately left my iPod in a hotel room in California.

I understand this is all got to do with one connection for all electronics because Paul said something about that a while back but I still prefer to use my TiVo to program.

Signature series? What the heck is it? No tuner, no speakers? Does it have a picture?....

Pioneer just released a new model line, the Elite Signature Series, which is a monitor only version of their Kuro Elite 50"/60" plasmas. no ntsc/atsc/qam internal tuners, no speakers, no stand included. Does have added picture control settings and allows over the net calibrations.

But still the point is they do make acceptions to the rules.They make exceptions too. ;)

The exceptions generally are things like "for TiVo subscriptions started prior to (some date in 2001), where the subscriber has never taken advantage of this type of offer before" and such, though.

They do, as a matter of course, offer a discount to subscribers (again, excluding DirecTiVo subscribers) for new lifetime subscriptions... but that's something else.

I was just asking TiVo users whether anyone has seen, or expects to see, any units with the typical CI control features. I didn't design these features or their implementation in AV gear- they are what they are. If you're not familiar with them, I'll take that as a "no." I think you're confusing the features with their implementation.

They make exceptions too. ;)



I actually do know how to speak and spell. Sometimes when I get in a hurry I make embarrasing mistakes like this.:o

A few quick questions:


** If I buy the HD version, then upgrade the drive to 750GB or 1TB, (which apparently voids the warranty) will TiVo know that I have opened the unit to install the larger drive?

** I'm partial to getting the lifetime subscription, but am concerned that if the unit dies, I'll be out all of the $$$ for a lifetime subscription. Is this true? I don't want to void the warranty by upgrading the drive...then have the entire unit die...which would leave me $500-800 down (and without anything to show for it). Do I lose everything in this scenario?

** When clicking around tivo.com, I noticed that (if I already have a TiVo) I can sign in to see if I qualify for a discount. What are the discounts? Anything other than $300 for lifetime, instead of $400?

** My friend (has no online account and doesn't use his TiVo anymore) has an old Series 2. He'll probably sell it to me for $10-20 if I want it. Would it be beneficial to buy it from him for the potential discount on the unit and the subscription? Is there any way to learn the discount that is offered?

Thanks again for all of your help!

I think you're confusing the features with their implementation.

Could be- wouldn't be the first time I'm confused! ;) But I don't understand what you mean in this case.

** If I buy the HD version, then upgrade the drive to 750GB or 1TB, (which apparently voids the warranty) will TiVo know that I have opened the unit to install the larger drive?

Yep, but some folks at tivocommunity say they'll look the other way if you have a warranty issue, as long as you restore it back to factory before you send it back.

** I'm partial to getting the lifetime subscription, but am concerned that if the unit dies, I'll be out all of the $$$ for a lifetime subscription. Is this true? I don't want to void the warranty by upgrading the drive...then have the entire unit die...which would leave me $500-800 down (and without anything to show for it). Do I lose everything in this scenario?

Yep, but the most likely probs you'll have are with the drive and power supply, both of which are easy fixes. I upgraded mine to 500GB immediately after I activated it and haven't worried about it.

** When clicking around tivo.com, I noticed that (if I already have a TiVo) I can sign in to see if I qualify for a discount. What are the discounts? Anything other than $300 for lifetime, instead of $400?

No discount for the first unit, subsequent units are $299 for lifetime.

** My friend (has no online account and doesn't use his TiVo anymore) has an old Series 2. He'll probably sell it to me for $10-20 if I want it. Would it be beneficial to buy it from him for the potential discount on the unit and the subscription? Is there any way to learn the discount that is offered?

Yep, I think you could create an account with the S2 as a monthly sub, then activate your S3 with lifetime and save $100. Then cancel the S2 within 30 days and get your money back on it.

Thanks again for all of your help!

You're welcome.

If I buy the HD version, then upgrade the drive to 750GB or 1TB, (which apparently voids the warranty) [B]will TiVo know that I have opened the unit to install the larger drive?I doubt they have something that detects and reports it in real time. With regard to the warranty, if you seek service under the warranty, the physical evidence of opening the unit would be sufficient to void the warranty.

I'm partial to getting the lifetime subscription, but am concerned that if the unit dies, I'll be out all of the $$$ for a lifetime subscription. Is this true?Not in the medium-term. First, if the unit dies in the first 90 days, it is under warranty, and they subscription will transfer without question. Beyond that, you can have the unit "fixed" by TiVo, or replaced if they so determine, for a price, and then the subscription will also transfer (without additional fee). Where it gets dodgy is when your unit get to the point where its lifetime is essentially over, i.e., about four years after manufacture, give or take. Somewhere around that time, they'll no longer allow for such free transfers of the lifetime subscription.

I don't want to void the warranty by upgrading the drive...then have the entire unit die...which would leave me $500-800 down (and without anything to show for it). Do I lose everything in this scenario?The warranty is only for 90 days. Do keep that in mind. Of course, things could change, but the repair/replacement costs for an out-of-warranty, but less-than-four-year-old unit, has been in the $150 range, I think... do not quote me on that... going strictly by memory... but you wouldn't be out $800, for sure.

Anything other than $300 for lifetime, instead of $400?Not that I know of.

But I don't understand what you mean in this case.The features you're talking about are available. They're needed to support high-end automation systems. However, the way they're implemented is perhaps different from how you'd like them to be implemented.

The features you're talking about are available. They're needed to support high-end automation systems. However, the way they're implemented is perhaps different from how you'd like them to be implemented.

In TiVo, you mean? Oh, the Crestron arrangement not being my preference? Okay, I get that. You're right then. I do wish they'd chosen something more standard & open, less proprietary. :( (Again, I don't mean fancy high-end home automation systems here. Just the better programmable remotes, like my Nevo, or Paul Simoneau's Pronto.)

I doubt they have something that detects and reports it in real time. With regard to the warranty, if you seek service under the warranty, the physical evidence of opening the unit would be sufficient to void the warranty.


I thought there was no way they could tell with the new units that they were opened. I could have sworn I had a discussion about this because I didn't want to open my S3 to blow it out in fear of losing my extended warranty.

Or is that like my D-TiVo lifetime thing?:o

Could be. I've not really kept up with it, because it is a pretty insignificant concern, given that the warranty period is so short.

For clarification, you have 90 days parts and labor and 1 year on parts. From Tivos website.

What is the hardware warranty?
45-16-25 Search Reference Number

TiVo Series2, Series2 DT, Series3 HD, and TiVo HD DVRs have a 90-day warranty on labor and a one-year warranty on parts. To see our warranty, see the TiVo DVR Limited Warranty.


http://www.tivo.com/setupandsupport/customerservice/ordersandreturns/What_Is_the_Hardware_Warranty_.html

He asked whether they would know if you've opened it to install a larger drive, and they would if the unit reports available drive space. And from reports on tivocommunity, it does - some folks have said that CSRs have denied warranty service when an RMA is requested for a bad unit that's been upgraded.

The point is he was told that the warranty was only 90 days and therefore it would be no big deal to crack open the case and install the larger drive. Fact is, the warranty on parts is for a year. So it may be more of a big deal to install an internal drive. For me, I would use an external drive until the parts warranty expires and then upgrade the internal.

......Where it gets dodgy is when your unit get to the point where its lifetime is essentially over, i.e., about four years after manufacture, give or take. Somewhere around that time, they'll no longer allow for such free transfers of the lifetime subscription....



Maybe I'm being dodgy, but I'm counting on a good 8-10 years of service from my S3. :p

I guess I'm hoping or anticipating that any equipment failure that crops up can be repaired via a salvage from some other S3 I can scoop up from the used market, assuming it's something beyond a mere hard drive failure. For the latter, the ideal repair, as it's an easy fix.

If I am watching a 1080i broadcast out the component outputs at 1080i on my hdtv does the S3 simaltanously downrez the 1080i output to 480iout the svideo for display on a non-hdtvs?

My plan is to have the s3 connected to my hdtv and the svideo output connected to a modulator so any tv in the house can access the S3s content.

Maybe I'm being dodgy, but I'm counting on a good 8-10 years of service from my S3. :pDon't undersell yourself: Lots of folks set themselves up for disappointment. To be fair, I've been using my S1 for six or seven years, but note that its utility is extremely limited as time has passed. And I've been lucky.

I guess I'm hoping or anticipating that any equipment failure that crops up can be repaired via a salvage from some other S3 I can scoop up from the used market, assuming it's something beyond a mere hard drive failure. For the latter, the ideal repair, as it's an easy fix.We can always hope. Again, the point though was that this hope for a long-term utility for our lifetime subscription is a risk we're taking onto ourselves, rather than something that we would expect TiVo to accommodate, beyond a certain point (determined by them).

If I am watching a 1080i broadcast out the component outputs at 1080i on my hdtv does the S3 simaltanously downrez the 1080i output to 480iout the svideo for display on a non-hdtvs?All outputs are active simultaneously.

Usually when I go to sleep I will turn on a court show on my TiVo HD or something from History Channel I have recorded. Many times I fall asleep in the middle of watching (how this happens when I have Judge Judy on is beyond me!:))

So as a result my remote is often in bed with me, my wife, the cats.

So as I get up this morning I notice a recording at the bottom of my Now Playing List off the regular Discovery Channel "World Telenet Paid Recording."

OK, so maybe I somehow rolled over and punched in the channels and the record button? 29 minutes. Or the cats did it? Wife didn't, she's on the other side of the remote.

I delete it and for the purpose of writing this I look in the trash. Not in there. I check To Do List. Not listed as "someone deleted." I make sure auto record is off. It is.

I come downstairs and check the S3. There it is as well! Still is, I haven't touched it.

Is TiVo sending us recordings that we don't request? I've never seen this happen in all the years I've had TiVo.

Usually when I go to sleep I will turn on a court show on my TiVo HD or something from History Channel I have recorded. Many times I fall asleep in the middle of watching (how this happens when I have Judge Judy on is beyond me!:))

So as a result my remote is often in bed with me, my wife, the cats.

So as I get up this morning I notice a recording at the bottom of my Now Playing List off the regular Discovery Channel "World Telenet Paid Recording."

OK, so maybe I somehow rolled over and punched in the channels and the record button? 29 minutes. Or the cats did it? Wife didn't, she's on the other side of the remote.

I delete it and for the purpose of writing this I look in the trash. Not in there. I check To Do List. Not listed as "someone deleted." I make sure auto record is off. It is.

I come downstairs and check the S3. There it is as well! Still is, I haven't touched it.

Is TiVo sending us recordings that we don't request? I've never seen this happen in all the years I've had TiVo.

Hook, I had that recording on my S3 this morning, too, when I checked it. I just deleted it without even checking it out. I think that's the first time that's happened in four years of having a TiVo.

Hook, I had that recording on my S3 this morning, too, when I checked it. I just deleted it without even checking it out. I think that's the first time that's happened in four years of having a TiVo.

And what makes it strange is it disappears once deleted, not in the deleted files, just gone. Like it never happened.

So i'm about to disconnect comcast and buy a TIVO and an ANTENNA.

I'm a bit confused about the S3 compared to the new TIVO HD I see on tivos site. Anybody know of any links or FAQs that compare the features of the S3 to the new TIVO HD and HD XL units?

I'm pretty handy so if the best value is to buy a TIVO with a small drive and upgrade it to a 1TB using software tools. just as long as I am not missing any major features or limitations in the value editions.

I'd also like to purchase a lifetime subscription with the unit I buy if possible.

So i'm about to disconnect comcast and buy a TIVO and an ANTENNA.

I'm a bit confused about the S3 compared to the new TIVO HD I see on tivos site. Anybody know of any links or FAQs that compare the features of the S3 to the new TIVO HD and HD XL units?

I'm pretty handy so if the best value is to buy a TIVO with a small drive and upgrade it to a 1TB using software tools. just as long as I am not missing any major features or limitations in the value editions.

I'd also like to purchase a lifetime subscription with the unit I buy if possible.


There are lots of posts with this topic over at tivocommunity.com.
As a matter of fact, i just posted one asking about some of the differences that i have not been able to find out about. i am not considering the TivoXL but am trying to decide between the S3 and THD. I am also handy, but really dont want to mod with risk to my lifetime service....
i am really one the fence here. Its funny, because i want a tivo to replace my Sony HDD250 that i payed top dollar for when it was released, and its only been 3 years or so.

.......Again, the point though was that this hope for a long-term utility for our lifetime subscription is a risk we're taking onto ourselves, rather than something that we would expect TiVo to accommodate, beyond a certain point (determined by them).

ok, I get where you're coming from. Perfectly reasonable viewpoint or expectation.

So as I get up this morning I notice a recording at the bottom of my Now Playing List off the regular Discovery Channel "World Telenet Paid Recording."

.......

Is TiVo sending us recordings that we don't request? I've never seen this happen in all the years I've had TiVo.

I'm usually up pretty late and very frequently when I'm around one of my S3s at 12-2am, I see that message show on the display. On the Tivo that only has one CableCard, I'll usually get a pop-up window, while watching TV late at night, warning that the box is about to change channels to record something. I have to manually cancel it to be able to keep watching my program. I don't know what all that stuff is that it's recording, but it's pretty annoying that it interrupts like that. Does it nearly every night. :mad:

Usually when I go to sleep I will turn on a court show on my TiVo HD or something from History Channel I have recorded. Many times I fall asleep in the middle of watching (how this happens when I have Judge Judy on is beyond me!:))

So as a result my remote is often in bed with me, my wife, the cats.

So as I get up this morning I notice a recording at the bottom of my Now Playing List off the regular Discovery Channel "World Telenet Paid Recording."I'm thinkin' that was probably "Teleworld Paid Program". "Teleworld, Inc" was the original name of TiVo, Inc., when the company was founded in 1997. This was before they decided to make an HDD television recording device (they'd originally intended to make some kind of home networking appliance).

"Teleworld Paid Program" is where TiVo gets those video clips that it uses in ads that show up at the bottom of TiVo Central and in the various entries under "Showcases". I've awakened in the middle of the night and noticed TiVo recording it from time to time. Usually, TiVo tucks it away and you never see it on Now Playing, but apparently something went wrong last night for some of us (I've got it on Now Playing as well).

I skimmed through to see what was in this one. It starts with a notice that "the following program is produced exclusively for subscribers of the TiVo personal television service", followed by: A bunch of little features (interviews, preview clip, etc) around the upcoming premiere of the the CW's 90210
an ad for "PedEgg"
an ad for "GoDuster
a pitch for donations to the "Balkan Aid Relief Foundation" (BARF--an unfortunate choice of title :D)
a very long ad for LandRover, showing the historical use of LandRover vehicles in exploration :rolleyes:
a series of little features on the new FX series Sons of Anarchy
a special offer for the TiVo wireless networking adapter, explaining some of the many things you can do with itExcept for the Sons of Anarchy features and the wireless networking adapter infomercial, all of that stuff seems to already have been on the TiVo in Showcases (and continue to be there after I delete the recording)--it's probably more or less the same every night, with old things being removed and new ones being added over time.

There's a thread on this at TCF (here (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=404863)), with TiVo's Bob Poniatowski (aka, "TiVoPony") popping in to explain that the appearance of the program in Now Playing was a "one time glitch" that they're working on a fix for.

I'm a bit confused about the S3 compared to the new TIVO HD I see on tivos site. Anybody know of any links or FAQs that compare the features of the S3 to the new TIVO HD and HD XL units?


Proud try this: http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/23/tivo-hd-vs-series3/

The TiVoHD is not new. I prchased my first one back in July or August 2007(whenever they were first released) I now have four of them. Although I still prefer my three Series 3 boxes from 2006. But for the price, the TiVoHD is a better deal.

Proud try this: http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/10/23/tivo-hd-vs-series3/
Despite its age, almost a year, the piece is very informative. I found the following particularly interesting:

Side note: We believe that TiVo has discontinued production of the Series3 and is simply waiting for them to sell-out before releasing the another version of the TiVo HD with the same premium options as the Series3. Let use know if you have a Series3 with a manufacturer date later than July 2007.

Indeed, the new TiVo HD XL appears to be exactly what the article predicted TiVo's new DVR would be. It has THX certification and a 1 TB drive. I would bet that it also comes with the premium remote that ships with the S3.

Indeed, the new TiVo HD XL appears to be exactly what the article predicted TiVo's new DVR would be. It has THX certification and a 1 TB drive. I would bet that it also comes with the premium remote that ships with the S3.

It still has no aesthetic appeal, and it has the same crummy display.

I like the 1TB hard drive however.;)

Yes. It also comes with the Glo remote that the Series 3 boxes have. A much better remote.

Despite its age, almost a year, the piece is very informative. I found the following particularly interesting:



Indeed, the new TiVo HD XL appears to be exactly what the article predicted TiVo's new DVR would be. It has THX certification and a 1 TB drive. I would bet that it also comes with the premium remote that ships with the S3.

If you don't give a fig for THX, have no use for the Tivo remote (i.e. you're using a universal remote), and don't mind upgrading a box, an equivalent Tivo HDXL can be had for approx. $300 (HD refurb from tivo.com + 1TB drive upgrade).

If you don't give a fig for THX, have no use for the Tivo remote (i.e. you're using a universal remote), and don't mind upgrading a box, an equivalent Tivo HDXL can be had for approx. $300 (HD refurb from tivo.com + 1TB drive upgrade).
Are you saying that TiVo is selling refurbished TiVo HDs that have a 1 GB hard drive for $300? If so, that's the deal of the century. What I think you meant, however, is that you can buy a refurbished HD and then add your own 1 TB drive at a total cost of about $300. One serious problem I see with going that route is that it would void your warranty, which would make me nervous.

Pretty sure he is talking about upgrading yourself starting with a refurb Tivo HD.

Pretty sure he is talking about upgrading yourself starting with a refurb Tivo HD.
I thought so, too, but thought that it wouldn't hurt to make sure. :)

...One serious problem I see with going that route is that it would void your warranty, which would make me nervous.

Just wait 90 days....that's what I did with my S3. Been humming along nicely now since Dec. 2006 with a 750GB internal drive from WeaKnees.

Anyone in the TW West Valley area having a problem with their cable cards on a Series 3?

I'm suddenly not getting lots of channels on both cable cards. Some are basic network channels = 3,8,12. I get a message "Channel not available. You may need cablecard decoders..." and a grey screen.

Re-ran guided setup = no change. Any ideas?? I don't know whether to call TiVo or TW.

Thanks, CB

Anyone in the TW West Valley area having a problem with their cable cards on a Series 3?

I'm suddenly not getting lots of channels on both cable cards. Some are basic network channels = 3,8,12. I get a message "Channel not available. You may need cablecard decoders..." and a grey screen.

Re-ran guided setup = no change. Any ideas?? I don't know whether to call TiVo or TW.

Thanks, CB

Sorry, but I started laughing about your misfortune. On my local thread there is some discussion about this very same thing. And it's on the West Side. Of Cleveland.:)

However I'm from L.A. and I know where you're at. What cable company did you have before the TW takeover? It appears that as they merge systems now cable cards that were installed previously may not work, i.e. in our area a fellow has Motorola Cards and they did a truck roll and installed SA cards, which his system is still not ready for and they don't have anymore Motorola cards.

Call the cable company and make sure they bring out the correct cards. Sounds like they are not decoding, they may have switched to a different software now.

Sorry, but I started laughing about your misfortune. On my local thread there is some discussion about this very same thing. And it's on the West Side. Of Cleveland.:)

However I'm from L.A. and I know where you're at. What cable company did you have before the TW takeover? It appears that as they merge systems now cable cards that were installed previously may not work, i.e. in our area a fellow has Motorola Cards and they did a truck roll and installed SA cards, which his system is still not ready for and they don't have anymore Motorola cards.

Call the cable company and make sure they bring out the correct cards. Sounds like they are not decoding, they may have switched to a different software now.

Hook - Thanks for your reply.

I wasn't involved with the takeover. I've always been TW. Everything worked fine until Friday night. I had a strange problem the 4 mornings before that. Every morning all my TW boxes were OFF. I have an 8300 as well as TiVo 2 and 3.Then Friday morning they were ON - as they are supposed to be. They are working fine. So maybe there was a software update that isn't working right for the cablecards.

Will call TW tomorrow. CB

Anyone in the TW West Valley area having a problem with their cable cards on a Series 3?

I'm suddenly not getting lots of channels on both cable cards. Some are basic network channels = 3,8,12. I get a message "Channel not available. You may need cablecard decoders..." and a grey screen.

Re-ran guided setup = no change. Any ideas?? I don't know whether to call TiVo or TW.

Thanks, CB


They may have reshuffled the channels on their QAMs and not updated the Cable Card Mapping. It's been known to happen in the past.

Of course, they may have done this at the same time they are rolling out SDV on some HD Channels (probably not the basic HD Channels listed) which will present its own set of issues for the time being.

I wasn't involved with the takeover. I've always been TW. Everything worked fine until Friday night. I had a strange problem the 4 mornings before that. Every morning all my TW boxes were OFF. I have an 8300 as well as TiVo 2 and 3.Then Friday morning they were ON - as they are supposed to be. They are working fine. So maybe there was a software update that isn't working right for the cablecards.
Yeah, that sounds like a head end problem to me, too. Every problem I have had with my S3 was CableCARD related and my 8300 continued to work.

Just signed up for Fios...installation in a week.My current setup (Comcast with a multi-channel cable card) works very nicely.I've read that Tivo HD can have problems with a Fios signal....because the signal is too "hot" (strong).Is this true and,if so,what do I and/or the installer need to do to prevent/cure this? Any other comments/advice anyone might have regardinging Fios and Tivo HD would be greatly appreciated.

Just signed up for Fios...installation in a week.My current setup (Comcast with a multi-channel cable card) works very nicely.I've read that Tivo HD can have problems with a Fios signal....because the signal is too "hot" (strong).Is this true and,if so,what do I and/or the installer need to do to prevent/cure this? Any other comments/advice anyone might have regardinging Fios and Tivo HD would be greatly appreciated.


I had problems with one of my TiVoHD boxes on Comcast, it needed an attenuator. When I switched that box to FIOS it was fine and didn't need the attenuator on the line. My other three HDTiVos on FIOS also don't have any problems.

Just a quick question for all you owners out there...
Can you Record a OTA HD Channel and watch a different OTA HD channel at the same time? Or record 2 OTA HD Channels and watch something else that has been recorded?

This would only be used as a OTA HD DVR...

Thanks for all the imput AVS Community!!!

Just a quick question for all you owners out there...
Can you Record a OTA HD Channel and watch a different OTA HD channel at the same time? Or record 2 OTA HD Channels and watch something else that has been recorded?

This would only be used as a OTA HD DVR...


Yup. Should work exactly as you've described.

Just a quick question for all you owners out there...
Can you Record a OTA HD Channel and watch a different OTA HD channel at the same time? Or record 2 OTA HD Channels and watch something else that has been recorded?

This would only be used as a OTA HD DVR...

Thanks for all the imput AVS Community!!!


Yes you can, I do this often with OTA.

Originally Posted by JediMaster109
Just a quick question for all you owners out there...
Can you Record a OTA HD Channel and watch a different OTA HD channel at the same time? Or record 2 OTA HD Channels and watch something else that has been recorded?

This would only be used as a OTA HD DVR...

Thanks for all the imput AVS Community!!!

Yes you can, I do this often with OTA.

Correct. One important reason I bought my S3 nearly 2 years ago was its ability to seamlessly handle both OTA and cable channels. The OTA channels show up in the program guide in the same lineup as the cable channels and in appropriate numerical order. The OTA channels can be used in exactly the same way as cable channels.

If I may ask two other questions:

1. Can you schedule "manual" recordings, or does Tivo require all recordings via the EPG?

2. For OTA and the guide, how does one specify that you want the digital HD channel, and not the (currently) analog?

I'm looking at the Tivo as an upgrade from my Sony.

Thanks

If I may ask two other questions:

1. Can you schedule "manual" recordings, or does Tivo require all recordings via the EPG?

2. For OTA and the guide, how does one specify that you want the digital HD channel, and not the (currently) analog?

I'm looking at the Tivo as an upgrade from my Sony.

Thanks

1) Yes

2) If you mean how do you specify the digital channel listing rather than analog, you can choose that in the TiVo's program guide settings. If you mean how to do it using the remote, you punch the channel number then, the -->| button (for the dash or period) then the 1, 2 or 3 (usually 1). For example, for digital channel 26-1, you would punch "2", "6", "-->|", "1".

If I may ask two other questions:

1. Can you schedule "manual" recordings, or does Tivo require all recordings via the EPG?

2. For OTA and the guide, how does one specify that you want the digital HD channel, and not the (currently) analog?

I'm looking at the Tivo as an upgrade from my Sony.

Thanks

I don't know if you're aware of this or not but you will still have to sign up for the TiVo Service. The reason I mention this is because there is a guide that provides recordings for OTA and there really isn't too many reasons to set up manual recordings, unless it's something like the news 5 days a week.

If you just purchase the TiVo without the service after 7 days after you first plug it in it will just sit there and tell you to order service.

If you are doing a Wishlist you would have "HD" as one of the settings on your wishlist.

Even the news 5 days a week is scheduled through the guide data, not a manual recording. IN the last 7 years I've only had to schedule a manual recording a handful of times, and that was when something, like a presidential address was scheduled at the last minute and pushed the programs back. And since it was last minute the guide data didn't reflect it so I had to schedule a manual recording to get my programming. This is very rare.

Even the news 5 days a week is scheduled through the guide data, not a manual recording. IN the last 7 years I've only had to schedule a manual recording a handful of times, and that was when something, like a presidential address was scheduled at the last minute and pushed the programs back. And since it was last minute the guide data didn't reflect it so I had to schedule a manual recording to get my programming. This is very rare.

If you know something I don't do you mind sharing it? Just saying "it can be done" without explaining how to do it isn't much of an answer.

I see where I can set up a season pass for what I was looking for which is FOX 8 NEWS at 6:00 pm. But I don't see a way to not have it record on Saturday or Sundays.

Besides that issue the news for whatever reason actually starts at 5:58 and since you can't start a program early, manual record.

Kindly share your knowledge on this matter.

Thanks for the answers- wasn't looking to bypass the Tivo subscriptions, just trying to get info about some items so that I'm prepared if I move over to a Tivo.

What problems if any are people seeing with the Seagate FreeAgent Pro?

I had a 750G that worked fantastic until it fell during cleaning one time.

Then Tivo sent out an email not use this brand due to reported errors.

The Western Digital 500G is too small for the money.

I just bought a new Seagate FreeAgent Pro 1T for $149 and it failed to connect for more than a day. I would get home and the error "add on drive removed" would be on the Tivo. I am replacing it with another 1t Pro. If that doesn't work I am going back to the 750 G Pro that I know does work.

Any advice?

Good or bad experiance's with different add on Brands or sizes? Is there a max size?

Thanks!

If you know something I don't do you mind sharing it? Just saying "it can be done" without explaining how to do it isn't much of an answer.

I see where I can set up a season pass for what I was looking for which is FOX 8 NEWS at 6:00 pm. But I don't see a way to not have it record on Saturday or Sundays.

Besides that issue the news for whatever reason actually starts at 5:58 and since you can't start a program early, manual record.

Kindly share your knowledge on this matter.

If it starts at 5:58 and it's in the guide data then it will start at that time. Otherwise in the Season pass you can have it start a few minutes early, this is nothing new(I set most of my Season passes to start one or two minutes early and end one or two minutes later). So you set it up and if it normally starts at six you have it start two or three minutes early. You can also have it end later as well.
The news programs I record usually have a different name on weekends than the weekday so it's not recording 7 days a week. They have something like weekend edition so a Season pass only records Saturday and Sunday. And I would have to set up a Separate SP for the weekday edition.

I see where I can set up a season pass for what I was looking for which is FOX 8 NEWS at 6:00 pm. But I don't see a way to not have it record on Saturday or Sundays.

Another option on the Season Pass is how many old episodes to keep. Our 'NBC Evening News' pass only keeps the latest episode, so I don't care if it records on Saturdays or not.

What problems if any are people seeing with the Seagate FreeAgent Pro?

I had a 750G that worked fantastic until it fell during cleaning one time.

Then Tivo sent out an email not use this brand due to reported errors.

The Western Digital 500G is too small for the money.

I just bought a new Seagate FreeAgent Pro 1T for $149 and it failed to connect for more than a day. I would get home and the error "add on drive removed" would be on the Tivo. I am replacing it with another 1t Pro. If that doesn't work I am going back to the 750 G Pro that I know does work.

Any advice?

Good or bad experiance's with different add on Brands or sizes? Is there a max size?

Thanks!

Bad. TiVo has had problems with the FAP drives (I believe it was slow powerups), and they've recommended against their use.

I'd stay away from the FAP's and look for a different drive.

If it starts at 5:58 and it's in the guide data then it will start at that time.

You're right, it's that you can't start it late, not early.

Just got it mixed up.:confused:

Guys,

Back in the day... you could use your replayTV or original Tivo without guide data and schedule manual recordings.

Is the challenge here around recording OTA without paying a fee for service? I am only asking because any wired provider will charge you a fee for their recorder so the tivo service expense is not uncommon.

Lastly, if you really want to stick it to the man go HD VCR. Then you can schedule all the manual recordings you want.

http://www.amazon.com/JVC-HMDH5U-Digital-High-Definition-Recorder/dp/B0002J6LA2

Enjoy!

BG

Guys,

Back in the day... you could use your replayTV or original Tivo without guide data and schedule manual recordings.

Is the challenge here around recording OTA without paying a fee for service? I am only asking because any wired provider will charge you a fee for their recorder so the tivo service expense is not uncommon.

Lastly, if you really want to stick it to the man go HD VCR. Then you can schedule all the manual recordings you want.

http://www.amazon.com/JVC-HMDH5U-Digital-High-Definition-Recorder/dp/B0002J6LA2

Enjoy!

BG

Thanks for the laugh.:) I don't think that was what anyone was implying, I simply mentioned it just in case they were thinking about it.

As far as your link, quantity is 1 available and it's a refurb. So while that may be a temporary solution that thing is definitely going to dinosaur territory faster then regular VCR's.;)

Guys,

Back in the day... you could use your replayTV or original Tivo without guide data and schedule manual recordings.

Is the challenge here around recording OTA without paying a fee for service? I am only asking because any wired provider will charge you a fee for their recorder so the tivo service expense is not uncommon.

Lastly, if you really want to stick it to the man go HD VCR. Then you can schedule all the manual recordings you want.

http://www.amazon.com/JVC-HMDH5U-Digital-High-Definition-Recorder/dp/B0002J6LA2

Enjoy!

BG

I did manual HD recordings in 2001 with my HiPix cards. I would never want to go back to that. Recording by the guide data is so much easier.

And I certainly would not want to record HD with a linear recording format. I decided in the early 2000's that I was done with linear recordings so I didn't touch anything with DVHS, and I had already gotten away from linear recordings with audio in the mid 90's with minidisc.

What problems if any are people seeing with the Seagate FreeAgent Pro?

I had a 750G that worked fantastic until it fell during cleaning one time.

Then Tivo sent out an email not use this brand due to reported errors.

The Western Digital 500G is too small for the money.

I just bought a new Seagate FreeAgent Pro 1T for $149 and it failed to connect for more than a day. I would get home and the error "add on drive removed" would be on the Tivo. I am replacing it with another 1t Pro. If that doesn't work I am going back to the 750 G Pro that I know does work.

Any advice?

Good or bad experiance's with different add on Brands or sizes? Is there a max size?

Thanks!You might want to take a look at the "Official eSATA Drive Expansion in 9.2: FAQ + Discussion (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=370784)" thread at TiVo Community Forum. The FAQ in the top post contains tables of drives and enclosures that people have had a lot of success with (near the end).

Sorry, but I started laughing about your misfortune. On my local thread there is some discussion about this very same thing. And it's on the West Side. Of Cleveland.:)

However I'm from L.A. and I know where you're at. What cable company did you have before the TW takeover? It appears that as they merge systems now cable cards that were installed previously may not work, i.e. in our area a fellow has Motorola Cards and they did a truck roll and installed SA cards, which his system is still not ready for and they don't have anymore Motorola cards.

Call the cable company and make sure they bring out the correct cards. Sounds like they are not decoding, they may have switched to a different software now.

An update: It looks like TW here is having software problems. Some mornings the boxes are all turned off. Some days the CableCards in my S-3 are messed up. Some days their 8300 boxes won't record - they seem to think their clock is incorrect, etc, etc. I'm just going to wait a while. I hate to be the first one to report a problem - they always want to roll a truck in a couple of weeks. CB

An update: It looks like TW here is having software problems. Some mornings the boxes are all turned off. Some days the CableCards in my S-3 are messed up. Some days their 8300 boxes won't record - they seem to think their clock is incorrect, etc, etc. I'm just going to wait a while. I hate to be the first one to report a problem - they always want to roll a truck in a couple of weeks. CB

Here's what I suggest you do. If you can find out who is the President of TW in your area. I can't remember how I found out but once I got his email, it was all over and everytime I have an issue I write him first. I get a response either by end of business day or by the first day of the week from a manager of their tech team and not one of the one's that they hire on who really arn't worth diddly, you know what. If you find out his name it will be first name.lastname@twcable.com.

Good luck.

On my S3 I had Terminator and Heroes at 8:00 pm, Heroes and Prison Break at 9:00 pm, and CSI: Miami at 10:00 pm.

I noticed that for some reason Boston Legal was on the "Will Not Record" part of the To Do List because "Another program with higher priority is set at the same time (CSI:Miami)

Turns out the "problem" is Heroes over extended. However TiVo wantd to clip 3 minutes from CSI: Miami.

Huh? It knocks a whole show off and wants to clip one of my other shows? There is nothing else recording, why not just clip Boston Legal?

So I pull the SP on Heroes on the S3 and put it on my TiVo HD. I'm thinking it will straighten everything out. I wait an hour and nothing changes. It still wanted to clip the 3 minutes on CSI: Miami and it did not add Boston Legal.

So I told it to not clip and record Boston Legal. No problem it sets it right up.

This is the first time I have ever seen TiVo potentially mess up recordings. I understand the priority thing and all that but even after I removed Heroes an hour later it still wasn't showing Boston Legal?

Very strange.

Heroes is 2 hours tomorrow night. The 8pm showing is a recap show and the 9pm showing is the 2 hour season premier. So the TiVo is working exactly as it should. The is one reason I have multiple HDTiVos. I sometimes run into conflicts even with several TiVos since many times I have over half a dozen HD shows on at one time recording.

The same recordings set up on my Brothers Comcast HD DVR would have probably resulted in several shows not getting recorded. He's had that problem in the past. Sometimes when three shows are set to record in a time slot it decides not to record any of them. He says he will get the TiVo software when Comcast rolls it out but he won't get a stand alone HDTiVo for some reason.

On my S3 I had Terminator and Heroes at 8:00 pm, Heroes and Prison Break at 9:00 pm, and CSI: Miami at 10:00 pm.

I noticed that for some reason Boston Legal was on the "Will Not Record" part of the To Do List because "Another program with higher priority is set at the same time (CSI:Miami)

Turns out the "problem" is Heroes over extended. However TiVo wantd to clip 3 minutes from CSI: Miami.

Huh? It knocks a whole show off and wants to clip one of my other shows? There is nothing else recording, why not just clip Boston Legal?

So I pull the SP on Heroes on the S3 and put it on my TiVo HD. I'm thinking it will straighten everything out. I wait an hour and nothing changes. It still wanted to clip the 3 minutes on CSI: Miami and it did not add Boston Legal.

So I told it to not clip and record Boston Legal. No problem it sets it right up.

This is the first time I have ever seen TiVo potentially mess up recordings. I understand the priority thing and all that but even after I removed Heroes an hour later it still wasn't showing Boston Legal?

Very strange.

Heroes is 2 hours tomorrow night. The 8pm showing is a recap show and the 9pm showing is the 2 hour season premier. So the TiVo is working exactly as it should. The is one reason I have multiple HDTiVos. I sometimes run into conflicts even with several TiVos since many times I have over half a dozen HD shows on at one time recording.

The same recordings set up on my Brothers Comcast HD DVR would have probably resulted in several shows not getting recorded. He's had that problem in the past. Sometimes when three shows are set to record in a time slot it decides not to record any of them. He says he will get the TiVo software when Comcast rolls it out but he won't get a stand alone HDTiVo for some reason.

Well I'll be a monkeys uncle! No wonder, I didn't realize that the 9:00 show was two hours. What a dunderhead I am!:o

But thankfully I also have two TiVo's and moved Heros to my HD TiVo. That also explains why it wasn't going to record Raising the Bar! And that I have to use the S3 for because of copy protection.

Thanks for explaining. I've never known TiVo to act like an SA 8300.;)

But thankfully I also have two TiVo's and moved Heros to my HD TiVo. That also explains why it wasn't going to record Raising the Bar! And that I have to use the S3 for because of copy protection.

Thanks for explaining. I've never known TiVo to act like an SA 8300.;)
Speaking of multiple DVRs and the awful 8300, I have an 8300 in my great room, which I use as a backup to my S3. Lately I have been recording a lot of football and golf on the 8300 and have had my recollection refreshed as to why I hate the SARA software. I won't go into detail here but things that are easy with the TiVo software, such as the 30 second skip ahead feature and the ability to add more time to a recording that is ongoing, are impossible with the SARA software. To add insult to injury, when I checked out the recording I had made of the Saturday Ryder cup matches, I discovered that the first 2 hours had failed to record. The 8300 and SARA software truly, truly suck.

Speaking of multiple DVRs and the awful 8300, I have an 8300 in my great room, which I use as a backup to my S3. Lately I have been recording a lot of football and golf on the 8300 and have had my recollection refreshed as to why I hate the SARA software. I won't go into detail here but things that are easy with the TiVo software, such as the 30 second skip ahead feature and the ability to add more time to a recording that is ongoing, are impossible with the SARA software. To add insult to injury, when I checked out the recording I had made of the Saturday Ryder cup matches, I discovered that the first 2 hours had failed to record. The 8300 and SARA software truly, truly suck.

Just FYI, I never had a problem extending the time on something that was recording with SARA on the 8300. I can't do it on the FIOS box. The 8300 does just about everything better than the FIOS DVR, and that's just sad.

Just FYI, I never had a problem extending the time on something that was recording with SARA on the 8300. I can't do it on the FIOS box. The 8300 does just about everything better than the FIOS DVR, and that's just sad.
In stark contrast to the TiVo software, which I have been using since 2000 and can make whistle Dixie, my frustration with the obtuseness of the SARA software has discouraged me from learning all I might about its features. Anyway, I can't contemplate the notion that the FIOS box's software is even worse than SARA, for this way lies madness. :)

And this is one of the reasons I roll my eyes when folks complain about the Motorola DVRs running iGuide. Sure, they're not TiVos, but they're far better than the 8300 running SARA... heck, the Motorola DVRs are closer to TiVos in quality than they are to the 8300 running SARA. I've played with the 8300 a couple of times, and manoman... whoo... >shudder<

Both still suck balls compared to a Tivo. OnDemand is the only reason people should want to stick with this junk, because cost-wise there's not much diff.

Both still suck balls compared to a Tivo. OnDemand is the only reason people should want to stick with this junk, because cost-wise there's not much diff.

I agree with you, but my argument is if you have a TiVo, or any DVR why do you need On Demand?

Personally I have so much stuff with my two TiVo's I wouldn't have time for anything On Demand.

I agree with you, but my argument is if you have a TiVo, or any DVR why do you need On Demand?

Personally I have so much stuff with my two TiVo's I wouldn't have time for anything On Demand.


For content you can't get on TiVo. For instance I watched the first episode of Knight Rider in HD last Thursday from my FIOS box in HD from the VOD offerings. It doesn't air until this Wednesday on NBC.
I've also been watching this Gemini Division show, with Rosario Dawson, in HD which is normally available online.

I can also watch other NBC shows or CBS shows in HD if my TiVo recording is messed up for some reason. And there are many free movies. I watched Donnie Darko in HD for free from the HD VOD on FIOS this weekend.
There are many titles available from the VOD which is why I pay the $10 a month rental fee for the HD STB. I only use the box for HD VOD.
And it is also an option for rental HD movies too. Although I look on VUDU, XBL and PSN first and if they don't have the movie in HD then I check on FIOS, and several times they have been the only one that had a specific title available in HD to rent on VOD.

For content you can't get on TiVo. For instance I watched the first episode of Knight Rider in HD last Thursday from my FIOS box in HD from the VOD offerings. It doesn't air until this Wednesday on NBC.
I've also been watching this Gemini Division show, with Rosario Dawson, in HD which is normally available online.

I can also watch other NBC shows or CBS shows in HD if my TiVo recording is messed up for some reason. And there are many free movies. I watched Donnie Darko in HD for free from the HD VOD on FIOS this weekend.
There are many titles available from the VOD which is why I pay the $10 a month rental fee for the HD STB. I only use the box for HD VOD.
And it is also an option for rental HD movies too. Although I look on VUDU, XBL and PSN first and if they don't have the movie in HD then I check on FIOS, and several times they have been the only one that had a specific title available in HD to rent on VOD.

I guess what I was trying to say that for myself, VOD is not something I use and I don't see myself ever using. YMMV.:)

I have two TiVos and throughout the Summer with downloading WEEDS 3 seasons, Dexter (I'm just starting season 2 and Season 3 starts soon), The Tutors, Brotherhood And the usual Summer shows I have enough stuff that I don't need it. Now true I would like to have seen these shows in HD but having On Demand doesn't give you access to all shows.

And this is one of the reasons I roll my eyes when folks complain about the Motorola DVRs running iGuide. Sure, they're not TiVos, but they're far better than the 8300 running SARA... heck, the Motorola DVRs are closer to TiVos in quality than they are to the 8300 running SARA. I've played with the 8300 a couple of times, and manoman... whoo... >shudder<
The 8300's hardware and SARA software have always worked reliably for me. Nevertheless, the SARA software is so primitive and limited I hate it, despite its reliability.

I agree with you, but my argument is if you have a TiVo, or any DVR why do you need On Demand?
I am living proof of that. I have an 8300 connected to the same HDTV as my S3 but almost never use its on Demand feature. It's handy for the odd PPV football game, which the S3's CableCARDs can't deal with, but that's about it.

I discovered a revolting development from last night a short time ago. This season's opening episode of Boston Legal did not record because two other programs that stood higher in my Season Pass list were also scheduled. Nevertheless, I got no notice of the conflict and only learned what had happened by reviewing the shows in the Not Recorded menu. This is particularly frustrating because I have an SA 8300HD box connected to the same HDTV as my S3 uses but didn't discover the problem until it was too late to do anything about it.

Does anyone know of anything I might do to prevent another nasty surprise of this sort? I have reordered my Season Pass priorities so that this particular problem doesn't happen again but I have a bunch of Season Passes and continue to add more, so I feel as if I am sitting on a time bomb.

TiVo doesn't actually have any provision to provide a warning when Season Passes conflict like that. It is only when you're setting up the Season Pass, or a manual recording, when it has the applicable program guide data available, that it checks that program guide data (and ONLY that program guide data -- it cannot access program guide data months into the future, of course), to warn you about potential conflicts.

What you could do to prevent this problem is regularly review the log -- I can't remember what it is actually called -- it is the first item in the To Do List. It lists every program guide data item that matches any of your Season Passes or Wish Lists, that isn't currently in the To Do List or Now Playing. You can review each one labeled "Will Not Record" in turn and check out the reason for each.

What I do, quite frankly, is double-check the To Do List. I use the My Listings feature on thefutoncritic.com, and every few days I match the next seven days up against the To Do List. (What I do is actually more intricate than that, but it is a reflection of some solitaire-type activity that I engage in, that happens to make doing the double-check a little easier -- no reasonable person would engage in what I do, just for the purpose of making the double-check a little easier.)

I discovered a revolting development from last night a short time ago. This season's opening episode of Boston Legal did not record because two other programs that stood higher in my Season Pass list were also scheduled. Nevertheless, I got no notice of the conflict and only learned what had happened by reviewing the shows in the Not Recorded menu. This is particularly frustrating because I have an SA 8300HD box connected to the same HDTV as my S3 uses but didn't discover the problem until it was too late to do anything about it.

Does anyone know of anything I might do to prevent another nasty surprise of this sort? I have reordered my Season Pass priorities so that this particular problem doesn't happen again but I have a bunch of Season Passes and continue to add more, so I feel as if I am sitting on a time bomb.

This is the same thing I was talking about earlier. Here's what happened to me.

I had Heroes scheduled along with CSI: Miami and Boston Legal on my S3. Now as was pointed out to me later Heroes was scheduled for two hours, so I moved it to my TiVo HD.

Now I only had the following shows scheduled on the S3: Terminator at 8, Prison Break at 9 and CSI: NY and Boston Legal at 10:00. But BL would not show up on the To Do List! When I checked the reason it gave was the 28 day rule!

But this was the first recording of this show and nothing overlapped and I had by taking Heroes off that just meant I was using one of my tuners, the other was free. I had to use "Record this episode also" to make it work.

I've never seen this happen before, and I just happened to double check everything. When I first wrote about it I thought the explantion made sense but the fact that BL did not show up meant something went wrong.

This would be typical of my SA 8300, not TiVo. Very disappointing!

Absolutely, I double-check the TDL every night about 6-7pm to make sure things are as they should be.

I still say, and will continue to say, that having a record icon in the guide(like every other DVR on the planet) would be really nice - it's my No.1 complaint about the TiVo - actually, probably my only complaint. :)

TiVo doesn't actually have any provision to provide a warning when Season Passes conflict like that. It is only when you're setting up the Season Pass, or a manual recording, when it has the applicable program guide data available, that it checks that program guide data (and ONLY that program guide data -- it cannot access program guide data months into the future, of course), to warn you about potential conflicts.

What you could do to prevent this problem is regularly review the log -- I can't remember what it is actually called -- it is the first item in the To Do List. It lists every program guide data item that matches any of your Season Passes or Wish Lists, that isn't currently in the To Do List or Now Playing. You can review each one labeled "Will Not Record" in turn and check out the reason for each.

What I do, quite frankly, is double-check the To Do List. I use the My Listings feature on thefutoncritic.com, and every few days I match the next seven days up against the To Do List. (What I do is actually more intricate than that, but it is a reflection of some solitaire-type activity that I engage in, that happens to make doing the double-check a little easier -- no reasonable person would engage in what I do, just for the purpose of making the double-check a little easier.)

That's what I did, TiVo should have recorded BL after I pulled Heroes off the SP and move it to the TiVo HD but it didn't. So TiVo screwed up, I had to tell it to record BL. There was no 28 day rule for this show.

I am "hearing" that over in the TiVo Forum people are saying that many of their SP's are not showing up from last year. There is a suggestion that you redo all your SP's because of some type of code issue.

Well, that still doesn't explain Boston Legal because I had it on a wish list and changed it to a SP when it didn't show up on the To Do List.

We did have a channel line up change in my area.

I guess I'll start checking, maybe redo the old HD channels to the new ones.

Edit: I sat down with the intention of changing all my SP HD channels to the new line up. What do I see? No reason to do it. TiVo did it for me.

Now I knew that TiVo could find the programs via the codes when the line up change occurred last May but I did not notice until tonight that it had actually gone into the SP and corrected all the channels.

It may have screwed up with Boston Legal, but once again I say "simply amazing." :)

Despite my disappointment at missing Boston Legal's season inaugural, If that's the worst I have to put up with from the TiVo software, I won't have much to complain about. Having to use the awful SARA software as an alternative to TiVo's has made me realize just how wonderful the TiVo software really is. It's like the old joke, when one guy asks another, "How's your wife?", the other guy replies, "Compared to what?" :)

Absolutely, I double-check the TDL every night about 6-7pm to make sure things are as they should be....

As do I...especially this time of the year when the late run of summer shows overlaps with the fall premieres. This is the busiest time of the year for my old S3.

I still say, and will continue to say, that having a record icon in the guide(like every other DVR on the planet) would be really nice - it's my No.1 complaint about the TiVo - actually, probably my only complaint. :)
Hear hear, mine too. Replays will show one dot for a single record, two for a series and the Tivo should have this too. The silly part is that a currently recording show HAS the record icon in the guide, so it's not like they don't already show it. And a show will have the thumbs up or down status in the guide for any time you select it.

I think this is another deal where they don't want you to schedule from the guide (or see what's going on) because it's not the Tivo way.