forgive me for asking what are probably repeat questions:

I am looking at the Tivo series 3 to replace my Comcast 8300 box (which I hate)

however I heard the Tivo 3 was slow changing channels as opposed to the 8300

any comments on this? are most folks happy with the Tivo?

[I don't buy On Demand movies and will install 2 cablecards which are free from Comcast]

I use HR10 Tivos and love them

Once you go TIVO S3 you wont look back.
Bottom line. Picture quality is so much better on the TiVO box.
Channel changing seems fine to me

forgive me for asking what are probably repeat questions:

I am looking at the Tivo series 3 to replace my Comcast 8300 box (which I hate)

however I heard the Tivo 3 was slow changing channels as opposed to the 8300

any comments on this? are most folks happy with the Tivo?

[I don't buy On Demand movies and will install 2 cablecards which are free from Comcast]

I use HR10 Tivos and love them


Channel changes are relatively slow on the S3. I had the 8300 for a year before getting my S3, and I'd say that they were fairly close in channel change times with a slight edge to the 8300. But then again, why would channel change times matter with the TiVo ? You're likely to be watching stuff from Now Playing anyways, rather than channel surfing...

The S3 is light years ahead of the 8300 in terms of usability and recording reliability. Season Passes and Wishlists alone make the S3 a vastly superior product to the steaming pile that is the 8300. Once you add in HME apps (Galleon, UnboxOnDemand, AudioFaucet, etc), TiVoCast and other niceties you'll get with the S3, it's simply no contest.

Channel change speed on the S3 might be a bit slower than a cable DVR, but having the S3 since they first came out, I don't even notice it anymore, IOW, it's never been an issue for me, I don't even think about it.

Thanks

my Tivo arrives tomorrow from Amazon and Comcast brings cablecards on Friday :)

Channel change speed on the S3 might be a bit slower than a cable DVR, but having the S3 since they first came out, I don't even notice it anymore, IOW, it's never been an issue for me, I don't even think about it.

I havent watched a live show or changed live channels in a looooong time. Too much in Now Playing to bother surfing. I am very very happy with my S3.

I havent watched a live show or changed live channels in a looooong time. Too much in Now Playing to bother surfing. I am very very happy with my S3.
True, about the only time I surf is on Sundays between sports events, like football, NASCAR, etc.

forgive me for asking what are probably repeat questions:

I am looking at the Tivo series 3 to replace my Comcast 8300 box (which I hate)

however I heard the Tivo 3 was slow changing channels as opposed to the 8300

any comments on this? are most folks happy with the Tivo?

[I don't buy On Demand movies and will install 2 cablecards which are free from Comcast]

I use HR10 Tivos and love them


Hi Mark,

I love the Series 3 HD TiVo. I will not watch TV without it!

My S3 provides virtually trouble free operation. In my experience, the S3 functions as it should, it provides a far better picture and more a pleasurable viewing experience, versus any DVR from the cable company. To me, it's well worth the premium price.

I think your cable provider will ultimately determine whether you love your S3 TiVo or not. If your cable provider screws up your cable cards, you may experience issues. If they get right (like Comcast New Haven) you'll love it.

As for slow channel changes, it doesn't seem any slower than the four Scientific Atlanta 3250 HD HD Cable boxes I have in my house.

Cheers!

Anthony Ciaburri
Audio Dynamics Div.

I think your cable provider will ultimately determine whether you love your S3 TiVo or not. If your cable provider screws up your cable cards, you may experience issues. If they get right (like Comcast New Haven) you'll love it.



I will watch Comcast very closely: I have 4 cablecards now and went through a lot of grief getting Comcast headend to figure out how to make them work (they work fine now)

Today the lady who took my order could not comprehend how one stb could use 2 cards

we shall see...

what are galleon and audiofaucet? and do they work on the S3? pardon my ignorance!

I've got two shows programmed to record from 7-8pm tonight, then two others from 8-9pm. House & American Idol are the only two of the four programs which will be recorded on the same channel. Yet, because I set my other 7-8pm program on an altogether different chanel to record a minute longer, my Tivo informs me that House is going to be clipped at the beginning because of this.

Doofus Tivo, if you would be logical enough to program yourself to stay on the same channel for the recording of the two consecutive same channel shows, House and A. Idol, then the fourth program on an altogether different channel would be the one getting clipped in it's first minute, which was my assumption when I made 'my extend one, clip the other' programming adjustment. I would have been perfectly fine with that minute-long clipping arrangement for that fourth show.

But NOOOOO!.. Tivo's got to do some unnecessarily convoluted extra channel switching tonight for it's recording sequence. :rolleyes:


Ok, I still love my Tivo3, but sometimes, just sometimes, I'd like to give it a swift kick in the arse!

I've got two shows programmed to record from 7-8pm tonight, then two others from 8-9pm. House & American Idol are the only two of the four programs which will be recorded on the same channel. Yet, because I set my other 7-8pm program on an altogether different chanel to record a minute longer, my Tivo informs me that House is going to be clipped at the beginning because of this.

Doofus Tivo, if you would be logical enough to program yourself to stay on the same channel for the recording of the two consecutive same channel shows, House and A. Idol, then the fourth program on an altogether different channel would be the one getting clipped in it's first minute, which was my assumption when I made 'my extend one, clip the other' programming adjustment. I would have been perfectly fine with that minute-long clipping arrangement for that fourth show.

But NOOOOO!.. Tivo's got to do some unnecessarily convoluted extra channel switching tonight for it's recording sequence. :rolleyes:


Ok, I still love my Tivo3, but sometimes, just sometimes, I'd like to give it a swift kick in the arse!
What about just setting the FOX shows to record as one block, set the first show to record an hour overtime?

It should only do that if the SP for House has a priority setting below that of the other program, IIRC.

good thoughts guys. I'll see if the priority thing is the reason for this, and/or, do the keenan workaround.

what are galleon and audiofaucet? and do they work on the S3? pardon my ignorance!

Galleon is an app which runs on your computer, which allows you to run many applets on your TiVo (including the S3). View your photos, play your MP3s, read your email, get your local weather, etc. Lots of stuff.

Audio Faucet is a slick app which runs on your computer which allows you to play your MP3s and/or iTunes library contents on your TiVo.

forgive me for asking what are probably repeat questions:

I am looking at the Tivo series 3 to replace my Comcast 8300 box (which I hate)

however I heard the Tivo 3 was slow changing channels as opposed to the 8300

any comments on this? are most folks happy with the Tivo?

[I don't buy On Demand movies and will install 2 cablecards which are free from Comcast]

I use HR10 Tivos and love them

Generally speaking, cablecards are slower than STBs with the OS built in when it comes to changing and displaying a channel, which is probably what is being referred to.

However, I'd be much more concerned that now the S3 Tivo is out, only 10,000 Total Subscription Net Additions were made in their busy quarter - which ended January 31st compared to 356,000 Total Subscription Net Additions in the same quarter last year when the S3 was NOT available - which was in their 10-K filed on Monday with the SEC.

Whoa! Really? That's pretty shocking. I had a feeling that the S3 wasn't doing well, but had no idea it was that bad. :eek:

Galleon is an app which runs on your computer, which allows you to run many applets on your TiVo (including the S3). View your photos, play your MP3s, read your email, get your local weather, etc. Lots of stuff.

Audio Faucet is a slick app which runs on your computer which allows you to play your MP3s and/or iTunes library contents on your TiVo.


When you put photos on the TiVo S3 with Galleon, do they play back in HD quality through the Component output, like the Roku, for example?

Dawn

When you put photos on the TiVo S3 with Galleon, do they play back in HD quality through the Component output, like the Roku, for example?

Dawn

You're not actually putting the photos on the S3, as in storing them there, per se. The app running on the TiVo instructs the app running on the PC (where the photos are stored) to stream it to the S3 for viewing.

Galleon's been out of development for almost a year, so I don't think it's been updated to handle the HD capabilities of the S3.

The new TiVo Desktop (2.4?) can show your photos on the S3 in HD at 720p, over either component or HDMI.

When you put photos on the TiVo S3 with Galleon, do they play back in HD quality through the Component output, like the Roku, for example?

Dawn

Photos do not display very well on the Tivo S3, as compared with Roku or other network players. It's no where close to HD quality.

my Tivo arrives tomorrow from Amazon and Comcast brings cablecards on Friday :)
You are going to love it. I got mine in early January. I had a TiVo S1 from 2000 to 2004 but stopped using it when Cox OKC made the SA HD DVRs available. Getting my S3 reminded me of just how wonderful the TiVo software is and how horribly inadequate SA’s SARA software is. If others use their S3s like I use mine, channel changing speed is not a practical problem. I find that I spend 99% of the time on my S3 in either watching recorded content or searching for something new to record. Thus, channel surfing is largely a thing of the past.

Generally speaking, cablecards are slower than STBs with the OS built in when it comes to changing and displaying a channel, which is probably what is being referred to.

However, I'd be much more concerned that now the S3 Tivo is out, only 10,000 Total Subscription Net Additions were made in their busy quarter - which ended January 31st compared to 356,000 Total Subscription Net Additions in the same quarter last year when the S3 was NOT available - which was in their 10-K filed on Monday with the SEC.
I’m sorry to hear that TiVo’s numbers are so bad but it’s not surprising that the S3 has not added to their bottom line. It’s simply too expensive to be much of a money maker for them. That’s too bad, too, because, despite it’s shockingly high price, I never bought a piece of HT gear before or since I got my S3 that did as much to enhance my viewing pleasure.

I’m sorry to hear that TiVo’s numbers are so bad but it’s not surprising that the S3 has not added to their bottom line. It’s simply too expensive to be much of a money maker for them. That’s too bad, too, because, despite it’s shockingly high price, I never bought a piece of HT gear before or since I got my S3 that did as much to enhance my viewing pleasure.


http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/552/tivozj8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

However, I'd be much more concerned that now the S3 Tivo is out, only 10,000 Total Subscription Net Additions were madeTo be clear, although the S3 subscription numbers have been just "ok", the low net sub growth for the quarter is less a failing of the S3 and more a result of churn from other products. TiVo added 163,000 new subs in the quarter. The problem is, they also lost 153,000 subs (the majority of which were DirectTV subs who net TiVo a very small profit anyway). The S3 contributed to the growth number but contributed nothing to the loss number...so you could say, that the S3 is really helping prop up the numbers.

What about just setting the FOX shows to record as one block, set the first show to record an hour overtime?


It should only do that if the SP for House has a priority setting below that of the other program, IIRC.

I was lazy, and didn't make any adjustments or look at the Season Pass prioritizations.

BUT.. for whatever reason, my S3 Tivo didn't do as it instructed me that it would, i.e., changing tuners for recording instead of doing the more logical thing of staying put on the same tuner for the consecutive recordings of content on the same channel. In other words, it kept American Idol and House one the same tuner afterall, despite informing me to the contrary earlier. Strange.

Based on Brian Miller's post, and my own noggin', I see that chart as a positive trend :)

To be clear, although the S3 subscription numbers have been just "ok", the low net sub growth for the quarter is less a failing of the S3 and more a result of churn from other products. TiVo added 163,000 new subs in the quarter. The problem is, they also lost 153,000 subs (the majority of which were DirectTV subs who net TiVo a very small profit anyway). The S3 contributed to the growth number but contributed nothing to the loss number...so you could say, that the S3 is really helping prop up the numbers.

why the significant loss of DirecTV subs?

DirecTV is no longer offering new TiVo units - just their cruddy HR10 and HR20. TiVo subs drop as units/hard drives die, or as folks who upgrade to HD realize
a. The ridiculous comparative 'quality' of DTV's "HD"
b. The lack of availability of TiVo unit for HD via DirecTV.

why the significant loss of DirecTV subs?

Rupert Murdoch, who had been the owner of DirecTV for a few years, decided he'd rather another one of his own companies (NDS) make the DVR box for DirecTV, rather than TiVo. NDS bit off more than they could chew, IMHO, and have produced two mediocre boxes to replace the truly marvelous DirecTiVo. DirecTV currently has grandfathered existing DirecTiVo's in service, but any new DVR turn-ups for DirecTV must be one of these new "home grown" bug-infested crap-boxes. As the DirecTiVo's die out, or their users make the switch to HD, TiVo's DirecTV subscription numbers will dwindle.

I was lazy, and didn't make any adjustments or look at the Season Pass prioritizations.

BUT.. for whatever reason, my S3 Tivo didn't do as it instructed me that it would, i.e., changing tuners for recording instead of doing the more logical thing of staying put on the same tuner for the consecutive recordings of content on the same channel. In other words, it kept American Idol and House one the same tuner afterall, despite informing me to the contrary earlier. Strange.

Where does the S3 show you what tuner it will utilize to record a show?

DirecTV is no longer offering new TiVo units - just their cruddy HR10 and HR20. TiVo subs drop as units/hard drives die, or as folks who upgrade to HD realize
a. The ridiculous comparative 'quality' of DTV's "HD"
b. The lack of availability of TiVo unit for HD via DirecTV.

HR10 is a TiVo, perhaps you meant R15 and HR20?


Jerry

HR10 is a TiVo, perhaps you meant R15 and HR20?


Jerry

Whoops - yeah :)
The " cruddy NDS/DTV's own SD and HD DVRs that aren't TiVo's " to alleviate all ambiguity :)

I am new to both tivo and cablecards. Today, Comcast Atlanta came out to install my two cablecards in my S3 and the 161-4 message kept coming up over and over. My installer pretty much gave up and left. I deleted everything from the S3 and re-initialized it to see if that would help. Well, of course it did not, so I put a call into my local Comcast's phone support.

The guy I spoke to was actually an internet guy and he conferenced with the cablecard "subject matter expert" and came back saying that there are two flavors of cablecards-- one for everything except S3 tivos, and one for HD tivos only. The installer brought out two cards that are designed for tivos. This is the first I've heard of this, and I'm honestly scratching my head at this comment. Is there truth to this?

For what it's worth, the installer called in and activated the cablecards before installing them in the unit and I read online that this is a no-no. In all honestly, he was more interested in my 4-port ethernet switch ("I've never heard of something like this before!") than working on the problem. :/

To be clear, although the S3 subscription numbers have been just "ok", the low net sub growth for the quarter is less a failing of the S3 and more a result of churn from other products. TiVo added 163,000 new subs in the quarter. The problem is, they also lost 153,000 subs (the majority of which were DirectTV subs who net TiVo a very small profit anyway). The S3 contributed to the growth number but contributed nothing to the loss number...so you could say, that the S3 is really helping prop up the numbers.

TIVO owned Subscription Gross Add Ons 163,000
TIVO owned Subscription Net Add Ons... 101,000

so TIVO owned Subscriptions Loss ==== 62,000

Cumulative Subscriptions Tivo Owned = 1,726,000
Loss of Tivo owned Subscriptions - Churn 3.5% :eek:

TIVO owned Subscriptions Gross Add Ons 1/31/2006 221,000 (Pre S3)
TIVO owned Subscriptions Gross Add Ons 1/31/2007 163,000 (with S3)

And that is their BIG Quarter.

Even taking out Directv, there isn't any good news there.

I am new to both tivo and cablecards. Today, Comcast Atlanta came out to install my two cablecards in my S3 and the 161-4 message kept coming up over and over. My installer pretty much gave up and left. I deleted everything from the S3 and re-initialized it to see if that would help. Well, of course it did not, so I put a call into my local Comcast's phone support.

The guy I spoke to was actually an internet guy and he conferenced with the cablecard "subject matter expert" and came back saying that there are two flavors of cablecards-- one for everything except S3 tivos, and one for HD tivos only. The installer brought out two cards that are designed for tivos. This is the first I've heard of this, and I'm honestly scratching my head at this comment. Is there truth to this?

According to TiVo's S3 knowledge base entry HERE (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=b03267a0-be94-4f14-8e2c-8ae7b4eb5249) , the 161-4 error is one that can be ignored.

If you see error 161-4 during installation, you can ignore it. If you see Error 161-2, it means that the card is damaged and needs to be replaced.

Depending upon how far along you and the installer got in the install process, you may want to contact Comcast again (CSR roulette, yahoo!) and have them potentially complete the CableCARD mating process, or even re-hit your cards. Sometimes the CC's do take a little while to show results (5-10 minutes), so be patient.

You see the 161-4 if the card is paired but not authorized. All they needed to do was send a cold hit, initialization, or whatever they call it to get it going, in all probability.

They tried a cold hit several times while I was on the phone.

I neglected to mention this, but I also can't ignore the error as it comes up every two seconds. I know a few other posters have mentioned this issue in the past.

I'm *still* waiting on my callback that was promised before EOB.

6h10pm edit: Apparently, Comcast did bring out the wrong cards. I'm still scratching my head at this. They brought out two Motorola MediaCipher CableCARDs, this afternoon and apparently, these don't work with S3 TiVos. I dunno. They're coming out again on Saturday, so at least I don't have to miss another half-day of work.

TIVO owned Subscription Gross Add Ons 163,000
TIVO owned Subscription Net Add Ons... 101,000

so TIVO owned Subscriptions Loss ==== 62,000

Cumulative Subscriptions Tivo Owned = 1,726,000
Loss of Tivo owned Subscriptions - Churn 3.5% :eek:

TIVO owned Subscriptions Gross Add Ons 1/31/2006 221,000 (Pre S3)
TIVO owned Subscriptions Gross Add Ons 1/31/2007 163,000 (with S3)

And that is their BIG Quarter.

Even taking out Directv, there isn't any good news there.Yes yes, this backs up what I said...low net sub growth, S3 sub growth just "OK", high churn from non-S3 products (majority from DirectTV), etc. The point is, the problem isn't the S3, which was never meant to be a high-volume product. The problem is non-S3 churn, and non-S3 saturation. Financial foundation of TiVo in the near future will rely on new high-volume, low-cost HD product, as well as hosting TiVo on MSO-leased equipment. Beyond that...who knows...industry is in such dishevel with integration ban and OCAP...

I believe TiVo has enough brand strength and differentiation to navigate these waters, but who knows...buy their products, but don't invest in them. :)

Yes yes, this backs up what I said... high churn from non-S3 products (majority from DirectTV), etc.

No, as I broke it out, there is high churn EXCLUDING DIRECTV.


The problem is non-S3 churn, and non-S3 saturation.


well, duh....

hard to churn S3 units considering as long as they have been out

Where does the S3 show you what tuner it will utilize to record a show?

On my tv screen, though, there is no standard procedure by which the user can find such info, if that's what you really want to know. The only reason I became aware of how my s3 was planning to utilize each tuner for recording was as a result of a programming change (adding a minute at the end of a program) I made just prior to the message popping up on my tv screen, which let me know that one of the following hour to-be-recorded programs, House, would be clipped in it's first minute as a result of my change.

No, as I broke it out, there is high churn EXCLUDING DIRECTV.No disagreement here; not sure what you are arguing about. Nonetheless, what I said was correct: majority of churn is from DirectTV.
I'd be much more concerned that now the S3 Tivo is out, only 10,000 Total Subscription Net Additions were madeYour implication that the S3 is failing somehow is not correct. Again, the S3 was never positioned as a high volume product. It cannot make up for DirectTV and S1/S2 sub losses and was never intended to. TiVo will continue to have weak (or negative) subscriber growth until they get their low cost HD product out, and/or they get their UI hosted on MSO-leased equipment. The S3 is a great product and is meeting appropriately low expectations for volume. I don't see the point of all your doom-and-gloom financial news.

I think you're putting a lot of faith in low expectations. For a company that is losing money, so much and for so long, for investors to be satisfied with low expectations, itself, is really weird. I bet they're not satisfied. Put on top of that that no new competitors are entering the stand-alone equipment sector of this market, and that almost all the competitors that there were have left the market voluntarily, I cannot find any reason to view the financial news as anything other than negative. TiVo will live or die based on the MSO contracts. The S3 was and is, at best, a diversion (not just for its buyers, but for the company itself).

If anyone thinks that Tivo will exist in their present form 5 years from now, they are diluding theirselves. Well think about it. They're bleeding money they don't have and once credit is cut off, how are they going to fund operations?

Let just hope that if they're bought up ( cable companies are considered a likely candidate ) that the new owners will continue service to our S3s.

If the satellite companies were required to allow 3rd party tuners, that might breath a bit more life into Tivo.

One thing with Tivo is that HD hardware really screwed them over because they were not able to take the high component costs and eat the losses like cable co's did. Now that HD hardware is becoming more of a commodity, Tivo will be able to sell a cheaper box that does HD in the near future, the CEO claims by the end of the year.

Between that and them being able to sell their premium patent protected software to cable co's and hopefully be able to push that software to boxes, no visit needed, and collect off of that I think they'll be in fine shape.

Also, as for Tivo getting bought out, they do have a poison pill that prevents a hostile takeover. The provision is basically that if Tivo doesn't 100% agree and agree to remove the poison pill clause, the minimum buyout price is $90 a share.

...snip...
Also, as for Tivo getting bought out, they do have a poison pill that prevents a hostile takeover. The provision is basically that if Tivo doesn't 100% agree and agree to remove the poison pill clause, the minimum buyout price is $90 a share.

If that's not an argument for independant board members, I don't know what is. :rolleyes:

For a company that is losing money, so much and for so long, for investors to be satisfied with low expectations, itself, is really weird. I bet they're not satisfied.I'm sure you are right; investors are not satisfied. But this is a Series 3 forum, not a TiVo investor's forum. There were implications going around that somehow the S3 was failing to live up to expectations and not delivering the subscriber growth needed to save the company. I just wanted to point out that is an unrealistic expectation from the S3 and a role it was never intended to fill. TiVo is not going under any time soon, for a variety of reasons, so folks can buy an S3 with confidence that it will be serviced for a long, long time. For an S3 forum, that seems to be the only pertinent point.

yes- let's get back to the S3

I got my unit yesterday and have it working, but less Cablecards until Comcast comes tomorrow

Are you satisfied with the channel switching speed? It is a little slow on the S3(CableCARDs or not) but you can probably speed it up by using a fixed output format rather than native. Native (or hybrid) mode might give you better picture quality, but your display's resync to different resolutions and formats usually slows down the channel switching time. If you do decide to use native or hybrid mode (for PQ reasons), try connecting over component instead of HDMI. Most displays resync faster over component. On my setup, I use native output mode over component connections. It's the best tradeoff for me.

I'm sure you are right; investors are not satisfied. But this is a Series 3 forumTo discuss the good and bad, and help folks understand the context within which they can make an informed decision about purchasing the Series 3 or not.

The S3 was and is, at best, a diversion (not just for its buyers, but for the company itself).
I disagree, but only because their customers were getting antsy, and wondering why there was nothing new coming out of Alviso for so long. If anything, it was a make work project designed to break even while they were negotiating with the cable companies and letting some of the dust settle regarding the future of HD and digital programming.

It also did a good job of keeping their name out there as being at the top of the game, or at least near the top.

Lastly, it allowed them to gain invaluable experience with a real world CableCARD product, experience that could only be gained through building a product and taking it to market. If anything, the high price and limited adoption among people who aren't TiVo or HD fanatics and early adopters already used to products having initial bugs helped prevent their name from being tarnished by association with the incredibly awful CableCARD situation.

Had it been widely deployed, TiVo would never have lived it down.

Besides, at least now we know why it took so long to get the S3 out the door after the HR10-250 D* HD receiver made it out the door.

The only thing they could have done better, IMO, is to have a plan for 2 way communication with the S3 box. It would have made the people who spent $800 on what may soon be a doorstop in many Time Warner markets feel better about that purchase, and saved TiVo some future manufacturing costs. It's not like they make much, if any, money on the boxes, save perhaps a full price S3 directly from their own online store.

What surprises me is that they're selling them for $499 with a free wireless adapter now to people who can find the "special" URL and don't mind either prepaying or not getting the multi-service discount (presuming they already have a TiVo).

Edited to add: Oh, and given that Comcast is apparently footing the bill for the port of the TiVo software ($16 million so far) to their boxes, I doubt TiVo is going anywhere in the next few years.

Oh, and they've had poison pills in place since their IPO, so it's not as if any investor has room to claim that the whole independence to the end thing has been foisted upon them without their knowledge.

No disagreement here; not sure what you are arguing about. Nonetheless, what I said was correct: majority of churn is from DirectTV.


I love how you keep trying to focus back on Directv when we have already agreed that is not the issue.



Your implication that the S3 is failing somehow is not correct.



I never infered that. What I am pointing out is TIVO is failing with ALL their equipment, of which the S3 is a part.


Again, the S3 was never positioned as a high volume product. It cannot make up for DirectTV and S1/S2 sub losses and was never intended to.


There's that D* word you love to go back to.


TiVo will continue to have weak (or negative) subscriber growth until they get their low cost HD product out, and/or they get their UI hosted on MSO-leased equipment. The S3 is a great product and is meeting appropriately low expectations for volume. I don't see the point of all your doom-and-gloom financial news.

Hmmmm. I guess it comes down to knowing what kind of financial state a company is in when investing (and yes it is an investment) buying their equipment. If you don't believe so, I can give you a long list of great electronics equipment that has lost its functionality because the company is out of business or other company reasons.

Bottom line, TIVO will be out of Tivo owned business in 5 years and they will make it or fail on the basis of their MSO leased equipment.

If anything, the high price and limited adoption among people who aren't TiVo or HD fanatics and early adopters already used to products having initial bugs helped prevent their name from being tarnished by association with the incredibly awful CableCARD situation. Had it been widely deployed, TiVo would never have lived it down.Ouch. Quite an impressive spell of damning with faint praise, there.

The only thing they could have done better, IMO, is to have a plan for 2 way communication with the S3 box. It would have made the people who spent $800 on what may soon be a doorstop in many Time Warner markets feel better about that purchase, and saved TiVo some future manufacturing costs.To be fair, it wouldn't have been $800 in that case -- but perhaps more like $1100, right?

OK now enough:

this is an official thread for the S3: it is about technical stuff folks

keep it technical or move on please

OK now enough:

this is an official thread for the S3: it is about technical stuff folks

keep it technical or move on please
I must respectfully disagree. Because this is the S3 “’Official’ Thread” it is the place for AVS members to come to help them make informed decisions about whether to buy an S3. It seems to me that knowledge of the financial condition and future of TiVo is a vital component in making that decision. Thus, analysis of TiVo’s FTC filings, especially its subscription numbers, strikes me as an appropriate area of discussion.

That said, the position posited by some that the sky is falling and nobody should buy an S3 because the company may soon fail strikes me as hysterical nonsense. Indeed, I bought an S3 in January because I was convinced that, one way or another, the wonderful TiVo service will survive.

I must respectfully disagree. Because this is the S3 “’Official’ Thread” it is the place for AVS members to come to help them make informed decisions about whether to buy an S3. It seems to me that knowledge of the financial condition and future of TiVo is a vital component in making that decision. Thus, analysis of TiVo’s FTC filings, especially its subscription numbers, strikes me as an appropriate area of discussion.


-1
I'm with Mark on this one. This isn't a general TiVo thread, or a stock talk thread. It's specific to the S3. The petty back-n-forth over TiVo's place in the marketplace is barely relevant to the particular topic of this thread at best.


That said, the position posited by some that the sky is falling and nobody should buy an S3 because the company may soon fail strikes me as hysterical nonsense. Indeed, I bought an S3 in January because I was convinced that, one way or another, the wonderful TiVo service will survive.

+1
The TiVo doomsayers have been around since Day-1, and they're still wrong to this day. The anti-TiVo blather will likely be around forever, for a reason I can not understand. I also bought an S3 in January, with full knowledge of all the related CableCARD, SDV and competitive information out there at the time. I'm still 100% happy I did so.

-1
I'm with Mark on this one. This isn't a general TiVo thread, or a stock talk thread. It's specific to the S3. The petty back-n-forth over TiVo's place in the marketplace is barely relevant to the particular topic of this thread at best.
What can I say, other than that without differences of opinion there would be no AVS Forum. :)

+1
The TiVo doomsayers have been around since Day-1, and they're still wrong to this day. The anti-TiVo blather will likely be around forever, for a reason I can not understand. I also bought an S3 in January, with full knowledge of all the related CableCARD, SDV and competitive information out there at the time. I'm still 100% happy I did so.
Yeah, most of the agginners here seem to use the specious argument that TiVo is on the brink of failure as an excuse not to invest in the wonderful S3. It’s their loss. Despite its admittedly excessive price, I have never been more happy with a piece of HT gear than I am with my S3. With the exception of having been victimized by a few of the well known CableCARD bugs, I could not be happier. Even with the S3’s CableCARD bugs, compared to using the horrible SA 8300HD that mine replaced, it was like being let out of jail.

Ouch. Quite an impressive spell of damning with faint praise, there.

To be fair, it wouldn't have been $800 in that case -- but perhaps more like $1100, right?
No, I have no praise for CableCARDs, faint or otherwise. I happened to get lucky, and it all worked within a few hours. Between two cards broken from the get-go and account balancing issues, it was much harder than it should have been.

As far as increased cost for two way communication, I meant it would be better if it had the possibility for future expansion, as in some way to add the hardware needed to do two way communication. As it is, even though a USB device is theoretically possible, I don't think it will happen. TiVo is almost certainly focusing on whatever their future "mainstream" HD PVR will be.

Either way, it's a wonderful box and it beats the pants off the 3416 running Passport Echo, if nothing else, in disk expandability, but in lots of other ways, too. If people had to pay the real cost of the cable DVR, I doubt they would consider the S3 such a bad deal. The two advantages the Motorola has over the TiVo are twice the live TV buffer and the ability to view VOD content, not that I ever use it, since Cox has no HD VOD content at all.

Comcast cards install took 15 minutes: tech knew his stuff :)

So, is there such a thing as TiVo-specific cableCARDs (at least for Comcast) like in the situation I attempted to describe on the 18th?

The two advantages the Motorola has over the TiVo are twice the live TV buffer and the ability to view VOD content, not that I ever use it, since Cox has no HD VOD content at all.
I wasn’t concerned about giving up video on demand when I got my S3, either, because Cox OKC doesn’t offer VOD in HD. If and when it does become available, then I might worry but not now.

So, is there such a thing as TiVo-specific cableCARDs (at least for Comcast) like in the situation I attempted to describe on the 18th?

no tivo specific card: most likely a headend issue

no tivo specific card: most likely a headend issue

Anakin, you're breaking my heart.

Nuts, well, I guess we'll see what happens next Wednesday during TiVo Install II: Install Harder.

Anakin, you're breaking my heart.

Nuts, well, I guess we'll see what happens next Wednesday during TiVo Install II: Install Harder.
CableCARD technology is still quite creaky, despite its apologists claims to the contrary. It is so bad that some manufactures have stopped offering their new HDTVs with CableCARD slots. When Cox OKC installed the cards in my S3 in January, one of them would not work and the tech had to get another from a co-worker. Fortunately that one worked. Even now, the cards are occasionally unable to find a channel and neither has ever been able to find Channel 170, the Soap Network. Fortunately that does not represent a loss for me, but the problem does illustrate the continuing problems that exist with CableCARDs and their implementation.

I don’t want to overstate the problem, though. I love my S3 and the way it has performed, CableCARD glitches and all. Compared to the old SA 8300HD that I used to use my S3 has been nothing short of thrilling.

check out this thread/post : the title of the thread is CableCards: We should NOT give up

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10350027&&#post10350027

I have struggled with Comcast for a couple of years with Cablecards but with the new FCC mandate for 1 July, cablecards will become much more popular: my dual cablecard install for the S3 was quick and no issues: so it can be done properly

In nearly every instance issues are caused by improper headend settings, and it takes some perserverance to get the cableco to correct it

btw: I was also an early adopter of the Sony HDG500 stb: the card worked fine but I could never get the guide to work... the S3 seems to have gotten it right

ps:just removed my 8300 from the rack to return it to Comcast

check out this thread/post : the title of the thread is CableCards: We should NOT give up

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10350027&&#post10350027

I have struggled with Comcast for a couple of years with Cablecards but with the new FCC mandate for 1 July, cablecards will become much more popular: my dual cablecard install for the S3 was quick and no issues: so it can be done properly

In nearly every instance issues are caused by improper headend settings, and it takes some perserverance to get the cableco to correct it

btw: I was also an early adopter of the Sony HDG500 stb: the card worked fine but I could never get the guide to work... the S3 seems to have gotten it right

ps:just removed my 8300 from the rack to return it to Comcast
I don’t necessarily disagree that the CableCARDs themselves are all right and that most of the problems are caused by the people at the cable companies’ head ends. Nevertheless, the fact remains that there are many problems, which some CableCARD users failed to get fixed, despite a lot of effort. Thank God, I was lucky and my remaining CableCARD glitches have been few and minor. I, too, am hopeful that the problems will stop once CableCARDs become the norm instead of the oddity they are now.

As I noted in my earlier post, my occasional CableCARD problems have been a small price to pay to be able to get rid of one of my execrable SA 8300HDs.

I don’t necessarily disagree that the CableCARDs themselves are all right and that most of the problems are caused by the people at the cable companies’ head ends. Nevertheless, the fact remains that there are many problems, which some CableCARD users failed to get fixed, despite a lot of effort. Thank God, I was lucky and my remaining CableCARD glitches have been few and minor. I, too, am hopeful that the problems will stop once CableCARDs become the norm instead of the oddity they are now.

Don't forget the cableco's kicking and screaming about the whole integration ban, and resultant CableCARD implementation. They've done everything in their power to see that CableCARD fails up to this point, and I wouldn't put it past them to take additional measures to ensure it fails so they can say "I told you so" to the FCC. This could include spotty information to head end and installation employees. Conspiracy theory ? Perhaps, but not out of the realm of possibility.

As far as I've seen, the gear holds up well, when installed by capable and knowledgable service people. It's when you have people who have no idea what they're doing when you run into problems.



As I noted in my earlier post, my occasional CableCARD problems have been a small price to pay to be able to get rid of one of my execrable SA 8300HDs.

+8300

Execrable, indeed. :)

In addition to it being a revenue issue, I believe it is also a cost issue. The separation incumbent in a CableCard implementation is necessarily more complex than an integrated implementation (such as cable companies implement in proprietary STBs, like the Motorola DCT-series), so cable companies will have to incur more expenses to achieve merely the same level of quality as before. The only rational way to expect wholesale embracing of CableCard by a service provider is if the service provider is a public or non-profit entity. The service provider doesn't benefit one bit from the integration ban.

+8300

Execrable, indeed. :)
Yeah, when I gave up my old TiVo S1, which I had used for nearly four years, and replaced it with the 8300’s predecessor, the SA 8000HD, I was appalled by how much utility the exchange made me give up in order to get an HD DVR. After seeing how woeful the SARA software was I thought, “My God, what have I got myself into!” The 8300 is just as bad, of course. It is simply horrible but before the advent of the S3, whichever HD DVR Cox OKC’s deigned to make available to me was the only game in town.

In addition to it being a revenue issue, I believe it is also a cost issue. The separation incumbent in a CableCard implementation is necessarily more complex than an integrated implementation (such as cable companies implement in proprietary STBs, like the Motorola DCT-series), so cable companies will have to incur more expenses to achieve merely the same level of quality as before. The only rational way to expect wholesale embracing of CableCard by a service provider is if the service provider is a public or non-profit entity. The service provider doesn't benefit one bit from the integration ban.
It won't really cost them much extra, in reality, at least not Cox. Cox has long ordered their Motorola boxes (at least, I don't know about SA areas) with smartcard slots. I seriously doubt a PC Card slot is any more expensive than an ISO card slot. Of course, they'll have to buy the CableCARD, but they can't cost that much, they're renting them for $1.25 a month, so at least for future boxes that don't have the encryption processors built in, they should only be paying a few dollars a box more.

Of course, there are other providers who order boxes without ISO slots, either, and Cox has recently deployed a bunch of DCT-700s, but in general, they've been ordering the decked out boxes, rather than the stripped down ones that some other cable companies order.

I wish I knew who to thank for them at least getting decent software in Tulsa, although I doubt any of the Motorola options are as bad as what people say SARA is. :p

It won't really cost them much extra, in realityBut it will cost them some, and gain them nothing they didn't have before. It's a loss, for them, all-around.

I seriously doubt a PC Card slot is any more expensive than an ISO card slot.Based on my experiences with getting CableCards to work, I believe there is a significant difference -- not necessarily in equipment costs, but rather in labor costs. Also, DCT-6412/6III and DCT-3412/6I which make up much of this local area's cable boxes don't have a PC Card slot.

I wish I knew who to thank for them at least getting decent software in Tulsa, although I doubt any of the Motorola options are as bad as what people say SARA is. :p
Cox uses SA boxes and SARA software here in OKC and it is, indeed, awful. I wonder if Cox will roll out the TiVo software in those markets in which they use Motorola boxes? Apparently TiVo has not yet even started developing a version of its software for the SA boxes. They had better hurry. I am convinced that TiVo’s last best hope for survival is the licensing of its software to cable companies.

But it will cost them some, and gain them nothing they didn't have before. It's a loss, for them, all-around.

Based on my experiences with getting CableCards to work, I believe there is a significant difference -- not necessarily in equipment costs, but rather in labor costs. Also, DCT-6412/6III and DCT-3412/6I which make up much of this local area's cable boxes don't have a PC Card slot.
I think that current CableCARD problems are mostly caused by their newness and the attendant ignorance of cable companies’ technical people. It seems to me that as the technology matures and becomes a standard, rather than an oddity, new cable company DVRs with CableCARDs will become as stable and reliable as cable company owned DVRs are now. Thus, I can’t see much basis for the claim that CableCARDs are going to be any more expensive for the cable companies to use and maintain than cable boxes with onboard decryption.

I believe separating access authentication from the box is inherently more complicated than having them integrated together. It's basic principles; an integrated device is simpler than components that have to communicate with each other using a specified protocol.

Congress has passed legislation that requires that third-party cable boxes be made commercially viable. How can they effectively compete if the MSO boxes have a built-in cost advantage in the form of integrated security? Witness the expensive S3 box compared to the cheap boxes coming from the MSOs...

Third party boxes cannot compete effectively while MSO boxes have such an inherent cost, complexity & support advantage. To achieve the commercial viability required by Congress, everybody must be forced to play on the same cost structure field. Ditching separable security might be workable, but all the MSOs would have to standardize on one technology/protocol for integrated security, and CableLabs would have to license said technology to all parties on a RAND basis...which is along the lines of what DCAS is attempting to do.

At any rate, this discussion is moot. Integration ban is real and coming fast.

How can they effectively compete if the MSO boxes have a built-in cost advantage in the form of integrated security?That wasn't the issue. What I said was that it will cost the MSOs some, and gain them nothing they didn't have before. It's a loss, for them, all-around.

Witness the expensive S3 box compared to the cheap boxes coming from the MSOs...The S3 is overpriced, IMHO. That's probably because there isn't a large enough market for what they're selling, so overhead is a much larger contributor to cost, and so the price of the device itself becomes cost-driven instead of just value-driven.

At any rate, this discussion is moot. Integration ban is real and coming fast.Indeed, and folks should keep in mind that the MSOs will invariably look at it as "nothing in it for them" so providing separable access authentication therefore must be a value-add for the consumer, thereby justifying another price increase. I sure hope all those folks in favor of the integration ban remember that when the price increases come, and check their complaints.

After using the S3 for a few days now, I can tell you it was worth the price of admission (about $620.00 from Amazon):

channel changing speeds are about the same as a DSS box, slightly faster than a Sharp LCD with a Cablecard, so no issues there: really no issues at all

Very happy with the S3: the Tivo interface is far and away the best I have seen :)

I sure hope all those folks in favor of the integration ban remember that when the price increases come, and check their complaints.
The price would have gone up anyway. It always does. :p As I mentioned before, it's really just an excuse, as the labor costs are higher because they fail to train their installers on CableCARDS (although it's getting better), and many MSOs are already buying STBs with separable security, even if they don't use it (although some have been using it for quite some time, but again, with ISO smart cards, not PC Cards)

What's more, any complaints they have about the system is a direct result of their own actions. They, in the form of Cable Labs made all this crap up, so any shortcomings can only be blamed on them. The only thing we or the FCC did was force them to use what they've claimed all along was good enough for the rest of us.

markrubin, I'm glad to hear you like it, I've been a TiVo lover for quite some time now, and the S3 only reinforces that. ;)

After using the S3 for a few days now, I can tell you it was worth the price of admission (about $620.00 from Amazon):

channel changing speeds are about the same as a DSS box, slightly faster than a Sharp LCD with a Cablecard, so no issues there: really no issues at all

Very happy with the S3: the Tivo interface is far and away the best I have seen :)

It's nice to have a box do what you want, when you want, and be intuitive to use, isn't it ? It's so far superior to the POS 8300 it's not even funny.

What flavor of CableCARDs did they bring : S-Cards or M-Cards ?

It's nice to have a box do what you want, when you want, and be intuitive to use, isn't it ? It's so far superior to the POS 8300 it's not even funny.

What flavor of CableCARDs did they bring : S-Cards or M-Cards ?

it was a S/A Power key card

btw: cableguy told me they are working on a two way system that would allow for VOD and all the features: he said all the hardware already supports it and it is just a matter of new cards and firmware (not sure this is true, but it would be nice)

btw: cableguy told me they are working on a two way system that would allow for VOD and all the features: he said all thew hardware already supports it and it is just a matter of new cards and firmware (not sure this is true, but it would be nice)
I lack the background to assess how accurate the “cableguy” may have been, but I sure hope that he is not talking through his hat. My concern is the many posts I have read here and over at the TiVo Community Forum, which have represented that the S3’s hardware is incompatible with two-way cards. I have also read that current HDTVs that are equipped with CableCARD slots have the same limitation. It remains to be seen, I guess.

I lack the background to assess how accurate the “cableguy” may have been, but I sure hope that he is not talking through his hat. My concern is the many posts I have read here and over at the TiVo Community Forum, which have represented that the S3’s hardware is incompatible with two-way cards. I have also read that current HDTVs that are equipped with CableCARD slots have the same limitation. It remains to be seen, I guess.

Cablecards are not 'one way devices'. Its the using device (eg Tivo) implementation that is one way. Today's S-Cards support two way communication IF the hardware they are plugged into are designed for it.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

Quote:
The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices1. This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability. However the manufacturers of digital TVs requested that a host standard be developed that only had one-way capability. This one-way cable-ready receiver was defined by the FCC's Plug & Play order and by the Joint Test Suite (JTS). It is the definition of this one-way receiver that lacks the ability for two-way functionality, not the CableCARD module. While the FCC defined the elements of the one-way cable-ready receiver, CableLabs continued to define specifications for two-way receivers.

Cablecards are not 'one way devices'. Its the using device (eg Tivo) implementation that is one way. Today's S-Cards support two way communication IF the hardware they are plugged into are designed for it.

http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

Quote:
The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices1. This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability. However the manufacturers of digital TVs requested that a host standard be developed that only had one-way capability. This one-way cable-ready receiver was defined by the FCC's Plug & Play order and by the Joint Test Suite (JTS). It is the definition of this one-way receiver that lacks the ability for two-way functionality, not the CableCARD module. While the FCC defined the elements of the one-way cable-ready receiver, CableLabs continued to define specifications for two-way receivers.
Interesting. Does this mean that the S3 can be given two-way capability through an upgrade in software or firmware? If that’s possible, it’s really good news but it’s contrary to everything I had read before today.

Interesting. Does this mean that the S3 can be given two-way capability through an upgrade in software or firmware? If that’s possible, it’s really good news but it’s contrary to everything I had read before today.Unfortunately, no.

Two-way access and security (decryption) are really 2 different issues, although they usually get all mixed up and confused with each other. CableCARDs support decryption. They don't care if it's a 1-way or 2-way system. The things you need for a 2-way system are basically a modulator (transmitter) to physically be able to send stuff back up the cable wire, knowledge of the protocol to use for the upstream path, and a license for that protocol which includes agreement with the MSO that you have a right to be part of their network.

The S3 lacks the modulator HW, so we are dead right there. There is the possibility that TiVo could release some sort of dongle that would attach via USB and provide the missing modulator, but that is pure speculation.

But there are other problems. The cable industry hasn't standardized on just 1 protocol for the upstream path, which is a real problem for a universal device like a TiVo. And there is no way for a TiVo-like company to license any of the upstream protocols, because CableLabs and the MSOs simply won't do this. So there are multiple problems to solve here. I'd say it's very unlikely the S3 will ever be able to support 2-way communication.

It's nice to have a box do what you want, when you want, and be intuitive to use, isn't it ? It's so far superior to the POS 8300 it's not even funny.Well maybe it's just because i have the Passport software, but aside from the Tivo's superior search functions, my 8300HD is easier to use than my Tivo S3 and is much much faster as well as being just as reliable. My S3 menus and guide are frustratingly slow compared to my 8300HD, and when i have the S3 in 1080i Hybrid mode, switching from an SD channel to an HD channel takes 17-20 seconds compared to 2 seconds for my 8300HD. And i can access all menus on my 8300HD without getting kicked back to live TV where on the 8300HD whatever i'm watching continues to play. And my S3 takes a LOT more button presses to accomplish basically the same functions. I love my S3, but it's like driving an SUV compared to a Corvette :p

Just to add to 2-way discussion: The cable and CE industries are currently engaged in a bitter fight to define a new, common protocol for the upstream path. Cable is pushing OCAP, which basically means the cable company pushes their entire user interface down to the CE equipment, and it looks & operates however the cable company decides it should. This would give you SDV, PPV, VOD, a channel guide, etc. The CE industry hates this because they have to cede control of the user interface for their own products, yet still provide the expensive horsepower to run this Java-based OCAP beast. Instead, they want to open up a common low-level interface that would allow them to do simple things like change a SDV channel, without being forced to support the full OCAP model. All this is still being fought, but if the CE side wins, TiVo could license, and the S3 could be updated to support, this new, universal upstream protocol. TiVo would still have to solve the missing modulator problem, however...

switching from an SD channel to an HD channel takes 17-20 secondsOuch! Something is seriously wrong there. I'm guessing you are using HDMI to connect the S3, and component to connect the 8300HD. Your display must have a problem resyncing on HDMI. I wouldn't blame that on the S3, however. Try using component to connect the S3.

Ouch! Something is seriously wrong there. I'm guessing you are using HDMI to connect the S3, and component to connect the 8300HD. Your display must have a problem resyncing on HDMI. I wouldn't blame that on the S3, however. Try using component to connect the S3.
I second the motion. My S3 is not a bit slower than my old 8300HD was and the S3’s ease of use and flexibility are better by several orders of magnitude than the 8300HD’s were.

AIUI, the S3 is capable of using an M-Card, which would decrypt two channels through one card, eliminating the need to use 2 CableCARDS.

I don't really see much value in that though unless your cable company is charging an arm and a leg for the cards. Here in SF we get 2 cards for $1.50 total cost.

when i have the S3 in 1080i Hybrid mode, switching from an SD channel to an HD channel takes 17-20 seconds compared to 2 seconds for my 8300HD.


Blame your TV. My TV resynchs over HDMI with my S3 in hybrid 1080i mode, as well as fixed 1080i, within a second or two. panasonics (and other brands - primarily Samsung, Hitachi) have been widely reported as being incredibly finicky about HDMI renogiations and lacking a robust HDMI implementation.


I love my S3, but it's like driving an SUV compared to a Corvette :p

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But that one is definitely fitting of what they say about opinions :p

Ouch! Something is seriously wrong there. I'm guessing you are using HDMI to connect the S3, and component to connect the 8300HD. Your display must have a problem resyncing on HDMI. I wouldn't blame that on the S3, however. Try using component to connect the S3.It's definitely a problem with the S3, not my TVs. I have both of my TVs connected to both my S3 and my 8300HD through a Gefen 2x2 HDMI switcher/splitter. When the S3 is the source, HD to SD channel changes take 20 seconds before the TVs display a picture, but when the source is the 8300HD i get a picture within a few seconds.

When i take the switcher out of the loop and connect the S3 directly to my Plasma or my LCD TV it still takes 20 seconds for a picture to come up. When i connect my 8300HD directly to my Plasma or my LCD TV via HDMI the same HD>SD or SD>HD channel change takes only a few seconds. I've tried all different scenarios and the S3 is the cause of the problem. Another problem with using 1080i Hybrid or 720p Hybrid is when i'm watching an SD channel and bring up my Now Playing List etc, i get a black screen for 20 seconds before the menu comes up on my display since the menus are 720p. This happens on both TVs, with or without the HDMI splitter and only with the S3. My workaround is to just leave it on 1080i fixed but then my TVs won't stretch the SD channels.


I have not tried connecting it via Component because that isn't an option with my setup, but i might try it so see if it speeds things up.


http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/156/1002171vo5.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1002171vo5.jpg)

No, it's a problem with your equipment and how it interacts with the S3. My set changes video modes on HDMI within 2 or 3 seconds at most. Well, I suppose it's possible you just have a broken S3, but it's certainly not that way for most people.

Edited to add: If I had to wait 15-20 seconds every time the S3 changed video modes, I would hate it, too.

Edited to add: If I had to wait 15-20 seconds every time the S3 changed video modes, I would hate it, too.Yes, I empathize with Randy's frustration as well...20 seconds would be unbearable! Using HDMI between my S3 and my Pioneer plasma, channel resyncs are a little slower than over component, but along the lines of 2-3 seconds like wierdo. Randy you must either have some odd incompatibility between the S3 and your particular display model, or HDMI is broken on your S3. Hopefully component can be made to work for you...

....and when i have the S3 in 1080i Hybrid mode, switching from an SD channel to an HD channel takes 17-20 seconds compared to 2 seconds for my 8300HD.....No, it's a problem with your equipment and how it interacts with the S3. My set changes video modes on HDMI within 2 or 3 seconds at most. Well, I suppose it's possible you just have a broken S3, but it's certainly not that way for most people.

Edited to add: If I had to wait 15-20 seconds every time the S3 changed video modes, I would hate it, too.Yes, I empathize with Randy's frustration as well...20 seconds would be unbearable! Using HDMI between my S3 and my Pioneer plasma, channel resyncs are a little slower than over component, but along the lines of 2-3 seconds like wierdo. Randy you must either have some odd incompatibility between the S3 and your particular display model, or HDMI is broken on your S3. Hopefully component can be made to work for you...I agree with Brian...I don't use cablecards, and I am connected via component cables, but, when I have it set in ANY video mode, it never takes more than a few seconds. And I've NEVER read of anyone having that kind of delay over in the TiVo forum. There's gotta be something else going on there for that kind of delay...

Randy - exchange your S3, it could be faulty. (I still blame your TVs)

And stop drinking the SA KoolAid - that thing is quite the turd, I've used it! You're projecting your HDMI delay disappointment to unrelated aspects of TiVo S3 usage!

AIUI, the S3 is capable of using an M-Card, which would decrypt two channels through one card, eliminating the need to use 2 CableCARDS.

I don't really see much value in that though unless your cable company is charging an arm and a leg for the cards. Here in SF we get 2 cards for $1.50 total cost.

One huge potential positive is that it gives the cable companies 50% less chance to screw things up on the CableCARD install. Only one thing to possibly screw up, rather than two. :)

One huge potential positive is that it gives the cable companies 50% less chance to screw things up on the CableCARD install. Only one thing to possibly screw up, rather than two. :)
Indeed, that would be a major positive aspect. :D

The price would have gone up anyway. It always does. :p For sure, but that's just the "cost of living increase" -- this will warrant an additional "merit increase" as well. :)

As I mentioned before, it's really just an excuse, as the labor costs are higher because they fail to train their installers on CableCARDSYou've misunderstood. Because CC is so complicated, the additional training IS (part of) the additional cost. Regardless, the CC is also the additional value that substantiates the "merit increase".

What's more, any complaints they have about the system is a direct result of their own actions.That's a rather convenient statement. Untrue, in this case. They had nothing to do with the requirement for separable authentication. You cannot pin that on THEM at all. Everything they do with regard to accomplishing separable authentication is the fault of those who lobbied for that legislation (not the MSOs), and everything that stems from it is simply COST to them -- as I've said several times already, they benefit from it NOT AT ALL.

is there any way to rearrange/reorder channels for those like me not using cablecards???

Not at this time, and there has been no official notification that they're planning on adding that capability.

For sure, but that's just the "cost of living increase" -- this will warrant an additional "merit increase" as well. :)

You've misunderstood. Because CC is so complicated, the additional training IS (part of) the additional cost. Regardless, the CC is also the additional value that substantiates the "merit increase".

That's a rather convenient statement. Untrue, in this case. They had nothing to do with the requirement for separable authentication. You cannot pin that on THEM at all. Everything they do with regard to accomplishing separable authentication is the fault of those who lobbied for that legislation (not the MSOs), and everything that stems from it is simply COST to them -- as I've said several times already, they benefit from it NOT AT ALL.
No, you misunderstood. The majority of the extra labor cost is tied up in the horror stories of 6 hour installs or installs that take 4 truck rolls. They're obviously not doing any training at all. If they were, the installers would have a clue about it before they'd actually done a CableCARD install in a customer's house.

You are correct that they did not have anything to do with making separable security a requirement, but it was their own consortium that came up with CableCARDs. Not the FCC, not any CE companies, the cable companies themselves. They wrote the spec, and now they're being forced to lie in the bed they made. I have no sympathy for them for that reason, if no other.

You're trying to excuse them from that because when they came up with the CableCARD they didn't know they'd be required to use them for their own boxes, which is just an utterly ridiculous position to take.

No, you misunderstood. The majority of the extra labor cost is tied up in the horror stories of 6 hour installs or installs that take 4 truck rolls. They're obviously not doing any training at all. If they were, the installers would have a clue about it before they'd actually done a CableCARD install in a customer's house.

You are correct that they did not have anything to do with making separable security a requirement, but it was their own consortium that came up with CableCARDs. Not the FCC, not any CE companies, the cable companies themselves. They wrote the spec, and now they're being forced to lie in the bed they made. I have no sympathy for them for that reason, if no other.

You're trying to excuse them from that because when they came up with the CableCARD they didn't know they'd be required to use them for their own boxes, which is just an utterly ridiculous position to take.

Of course, you know that, and I know that, and hell even bicker1 probably knows that but he'll never admit it. Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, you're engaged in a pointless pursuit in discussing this topic with Mr. Comcast. He only puts down the pom-poms to post more pro-Comcast stuff, and then gets back to his cheerleading activities.

is there any way to rearrange/reorder channels for those like me not using cablecards???

Not exactly. You can add/delete channels from your "channels you receive" list, which affects the guide and any SeasonPass and WishList recordings. You can also make a list of favorites, I believe, which can be shown in the guide view. Either way, though, the ordering will always remain numerically sequential by channel number.

You are correct that they did not have anything to do with making separable security a requirement, but it was their own consortium that came up with CableCARDs.My point was that they gain NOTHING from having separable security. Nothing. Everything from there on, including coming up with a solution, like CableCard, was cost for them -- money they expended that served their owners not-one-bit. The government should never have placed such a requirement on them, but having done so, it should have footed the bill of the cost of the research to find a technical solution that would cost the businesses the least amount to implement (perhaps in the form of tax credits), rather than making it an unfunded mandate. However, our government is all about unfunded mandates eh? Sure, we don't need to pay for what we want. We'll just pass the buck down the line.

Just in case you haven't figured it out yet, you're engaged in a pointless pursuit in discussing this topic with Mr. Comcast. He only puts down the pom-poms to post more pro-Comcast stuff, and then gets back to his cheerleading activities.It's called honesty and reality, instead of the fantasy some folks peddle. I couldn't care less about Comcast, specifically -- they're just the company that you're casting reckless aspersions on today. Tomorrow you could be posting ridiculously biased things against some other company. I say the same sort of things about American Airlines, Walt Disney World, Nationwide Insurance, Ralston-Purina, Shaw's, etc., and that was just in the last week. Wherever folks are myopically putting their own personal interest over the principles of capitalism, I provide the same type of balance.

I'm considering buying s3.
Just wondering how happy generally people are with the unit???

I'm considering buying s3.
Just wondering how happy generally people are with the unit???

Very happy. Once the CableCARD installation was straightened out by Adelphia/Comcast, things have been running very smoothly. It's nice to be able to use a reliable, easy to use DVR, rather than the crappy 8300 w/ SARA that I was saddled with previously.

Wherever folks are ... , I provide ...

Is it a bird ... Is it a Plane .... No! It's Capitalism-man :)

I'm considering buying s3.
Just wondering how happy generally people are with the unit???

A lot of it has to do with your individual situation with your cable company.

My personal experience was that the local cable company had something screwed up for several months where I had trouble tuning a couple of the HD locals. Eventually they fixed whatever the problem was and everything is smooth sailing. Plus I can tune the Fox HD channel over the air which the local cable company doesn't offer.

I kept the Motorola DVR as sometimes I want to record 3 or 4 shows at the same time. My cable provider changed software from the Pioneer Passport to something else which has had one problem after another. I'm tempted to get a second S3 if I could get a deal on the monthly service and ditch the Motorola all together.

I'm considering buying s3.
Just wondering how happy generally people are with the unit???

I use mine for OTA only, i.e., no cablecards. I've been using it for about 5 months, and before the S3, a regular Tivo for about 8 months.

I don't rave about the S3 like many others do, but that might be because I've so quickly grown accustomed to it's conveniences that I suppose it doesn't impress me all that much because I take it so much for granted now. It's not that big of a deal to me. However, when I reeeally stop and think about my previous recording alternatives and my previous ways of skipping around recordings (FF, slowmo, rewinding, etc), well, that's when I realize just how much I've come to depend on the Tivo and if forced to go back to my former methods and options for dealing with these issues, they would quickly exasperate me now. Having had no experience with cable/satellite dvr options, I cannot compare the respective user experiences against the Tivo S3.

And while I don't utilize Tivo Suggestions, I do have a ton of Tivo Wishlist entries, which conveniently & automatically record any of my Wishlist interests should they ever pop up in the programming schedule. Enter in the name or title info once, and it's there for as long as you keep it in your Wishlist. I've got tons of musical artists as well as some previously-aired programming that I hope get repeated somewhere down the line. I love that this system allows me to have my interests auto-recorded without me having to study the tv guides to see what's coming up each and every week. :rolleyes:

That being said, there are a few irritating things I wish that I could change, or, random headscratchers that throw me for the occasional loop. For example, their was an 'American Idol' episode last week which stopped recording 20 minutes into the program. I cannot figure out why. It just stopped.. no other program conflicts or disruptions that I could figure out. very strange. :confused: This is not a common occurence though.

Also, 'Lost' failed to record last week. I have this series on a Season Pass to record only first run episodes. ('Lost' will sometimes take a first run episode, then the very next week, repeat that same episode just prior to airing that weeks new 'Lost ' episode, which is apparently causing the Tivo software problems/conflict). The Tivo cancelled the recording because of some rule about "this program episode appears more than once within 28 days", which makes no sense to me. If the episode/show is designated as a first airing, just record it, even if is being represented to Tivo as a first airing more than once within that 28 day schedule! If the same episode is represented the second time as being a rerun, revert back to the original rule.. don't record that repeat airing! :rolleyes: The only alternative or workaround Tivo offers is for you to change the Season Pass to "record all showings", which would necessitate frequent deletions from the "now playing" list.

On balance, unless you are a computer stud who can tweak and assemble some killer media pc solution without spending countless hours on the project, the average joe/jane would be hard pressed to find a more convenient, flexible HD/SD dual-tuner recording system than the S3. I only which it had a triple tuner, instead of just a dual. :D

I use mine for OTA only, i.e., no cablecards. I've been using it for about 5 months, and before the S3, a regular Tivo for about 8 months.



I have a Sony DVR which I absolutely love and its all free, guide and all (montly fees that is). How much does your TIVO cost every month? The Sony is discontinued and I'm looking into getting another DVR. I don't like the idea of paying every month for a TV Guide when I can get it free. I'm strictly OTA. Does TIVO charge a monthly fee just to get the guide?

Thanks
Marshall

CruelInventions - the failed Lost recording can be attributed to flawed guide data (provided by your local stations or their national counterp[arts to Tribune, from whome TiVo gets it).

As for AI - maybe your S3 was just doing you a favor and saving brain cells and irrecoverable moments of a life you're trying to waste? :) Or perhaps Sanjaya had been voted out already? :)

In all seriousness, I know you're on TiVoCommunity as well, so check the Now Playing or TV Show talk sections tos ee if these problems were commonly observed among the TiVo populace. My S2 picked up Lost and I don't watch AI.

My point was that they gain NOTHING from having separable security. Nothing. Everything from there on, including coming up with a solution, like CableCard, was cost for them -- money they expended that served their owners not-one-bit. The government should never have placed such a requirement on them, but having done so, it should have footed the bill of the cost of the research to find a technical solution that would cost the businesses the least amount to implement (perhaps in the form of tax credits), rather than making it an unfunded mandate. However, our government is all about unfunded mandates eh? Sure, we don't need to pay for what we want. We'll just pass the buck down the line.
Uh, didn't the cable companies get the mandate to come up with CableCARD because they asked for it? I somehow doubt they would have been happy had the FCC tasked the CEA or even IEEE to come up with a standard access device. Also, their coming up with CableCARD most certainly benefited them, just as telephone companies unbundling local loops benefited them. Now they can compete in other markets and have a more lax regulatory regime.

I suppose the government should have paid for telephone companies to come up with a standard electrical interface. :rolleyes:

Lay down the Rand, you've obviously been reading too much of it. Just like a monopoly on video services isn't cool, a monopoly on devices to access that video service is not cool, but you seem the type to think that if the market makes the monopoly, that's OK. Good for you, but realize that you're way out of the mainstream on that. Capitalism is not a religion, it's a means to an end, one that history demonstrates must be tempered by regulation to avoid nasty byproducts.

By the way, if they gain nothing from separable security, why is it that until the DCT-700 came along, why were almost all cable companies buying boxes with ISO slots for separable security? Perhaps because they gain something?

Also, 'Lost' failed to record last week. I have this series on a Season Pass to record only first run episodes. ('Lost' will sometimes take a first run episode, then the very next week, repeat that same episode just prior to airing that weeks new 'Lost ' episode, which is apparently causing the Tivo software problems/conflict). The Tivo cancelled the recording because of some rule about "this program episode appears more than once within 28 days", which makes no sense to me. If the episode/show is designated as a first airing, just record it, even if is being represented to Tivo as a first airing more than once within that 28 day schedule! If the same episode is represented the second time as being a rerun, revert back to the original rule.. don't record that repeat airing! :rolleyes: The only alternative or workaround Tivo offers is for you to change the Season Pass to "record all showings", which would necessitate frequent deletions from the "now playing" list.

"First Run" does not mean "the first time the program is ever shown," it is considered first run for a while (a week or two from the original air date, IIRC), in case, for example, the real first run is pre-empted by a higher priority season pass. The 28 day rule prevents it from recording the episode repeatedly while it is still considered first run, and more importantly, prevents the thing from doing what every other DVR seems to do, which is record the same episode of a series repeatedly in a short span of time.

One of my biggest problems with the Motorola 3416 running Passport is that it will repeatedly record the same episodes of cable shows over and over again.

The only thing TiVo could do better, IMO, is handle news shows that don't have episode information without recording them on every showing, but I can't even think of a good way to do that, so I don't blame them for not handling that case.

Since I don't watch Lost, I don't know for sure, but it seems probable that the TiVo thought it got that episode last week when it was, in reality, pre-empted by coverage of the VT shooting. I would have missed Boston Legal this week but for my being familiar with TiVo's behavior regarding the 28 day rule. The nice thing about the 28 day rule is that normally, in your example of Lost, you'll only get the new episode that airs each week, even if you set it to take repeats, since it will have already recorded one of them within the last 28 days. The 28 day rule is designed for just such a thing.

I have a Sony DVR which I absolutely love and its all free, guide and all (montly fees that is). How much does your TIVO cost every month? The Sony is discontinued and I'm looking into getting another DVR. I don't like the idea of paying every month for a TV Guide when I can get it free. I'm strictly OTA. Does TIVO charge a monthly fee just to get the guide?

Thanks
Marshall



I got in just before Tivo ended their pre-pay, lifetime membership deal, so I don't pay anything monthly. Bit the $$ bullet upfront and *finger crossed* this unit will remain viable for years, amortized more cheaply the longer it, and Tivo the company itself w/their software/guide, hang around.

I wouldn't have taken the plunge otherwise, as I am allergic to paying ongoing monthly fees for entertainment purposes. But that's my personal foible.

You have to purchase one of their machines in order to rent their programming guide/software. You cannot purchase just their guide/software to use in conjunction with some other dvr equipment, if that's one of your questions. Of course, there are those people who find a secondhand Tivo with lifetime subscription and transfer it into their name. That would be your only workaround to getting use of their software/guide without having to go the monthly fee route.

CruelInventions - the failed Lost recording can be attributed to flawed guide data (provided by your local stations or their national counterp[arts to Tribune, from whome TiVo gets it).

As for AI - maybe your S3 was just doing you a favor and saving brain cells and irrecoverable moments of a life you're trying to waste? :) Or perhaps Sanjaya had been voted out already? :)

In all seriousness, I know you're on TiVoCommunity as well, so check the Now Playing or TV Show talk sections tos ee if these problems were commonly observed among the TiVo populace. My S2 picked up Lost and I don't watch AI.

lol, I knew I would take crap for the AI viewership. I like to watch the show, though I doubt I would ever buy an album by any of the contestants, whether it be this year or anytime previous. I just like the circus of it all, I suppose. I usually fast forward through a good chunk of it, even skimming (or especially skimming) through the vocal performances, unless one grabs me pretty quickly.

Good idea about going to the Tivo forums.. I don't spend enough time there. So many internet distractions, so little time!

More on Lost later (still working through weirdo's post on this subject).

I have a Sony DVR which I absolutely love and its all free, guide and all (montly fees that is). How much does your TIVO cost every month? The Sony is discontinued and I'm looking into getting another DVR. I don't like the idea of paying every month for a TV Guide when I can get it free. I'm strictly OTA. Does TIVO charge a monthly fee just to get the guide?

Thanks
MarshallI'm sure I'll be labeled a TiVo fanboy (and probably rightly so!), but you're paying for much more than just a guide. There are Season Passes, Wishlists, it properly records first-run episodes, etc, etc. Now I had the Sony DVR, so I know the difference -- and it's monumental. I had many problems with several of the Sony DHG units, but, when they worked, they were fine. They just don't have the bells and whistles the S3 has. Plus the TiVo program guide is light years ahead of TVGOS. I pay $12.95 per month, basically less than 50 cents per day, and I have no problem at all doing it. That's much less than a cup of coffee per day.

every room in my house would be tivo-wired if there's no monthly fee. ;)

Well, I'm looking at my third cableCARD installation for my single S3 this evening. I'm really thinking of selling my TiVo outright at this point. I've wasted many, many hours on this installation over the past week already. It's not the TiVo's fault, but this is becoming a nightmare.

Well, I'm looking at my third cableCARD installation for my single S3 this evening. I'm really thinking of selling my TiVo outright at this point. I've wasted many, many hours on this installation over the past week already. It's not the TiVo's fault, but this is becoming a nightmare.
I feel your pain but I would recommend patience here. I have been reading everything I could find about the S3, both here and over at the TiVo Community Forum, since last summer and I am convinced that those who keep pinging on both TiVo and their local cable company until the job is done will be glad they did. I was lucky because my only glitch was a CableCARD that was DOA. Even then, I did all right because the other one worked out of the box and my tech was able to get a replacement for the dead one from a co-worker who was working nearby.

The Dirty Little Secret is that CableCARD technology in its present iteration is not ready for prime time. Nevertheless, the cards can be made to work and usually will work – after awhile. It might not be the cards, though, so you might want to consider getting TiVo to replace your S3, just to make sure that the box isn’t your problem. A fellow here in OKC bought one around the first of the year and had to get TiVo to replace it before he could get it working. Both the new box and the CableCARDs for it proved to be perfect.

I feel your pain but I would recommend patience here. I have been reading everything I could find about the S3, both here and over at the TiVo Community Forum, since last summer and I am convinced that those who keep pinging on both TiVo and their local cable company until the job is done will be glad they did. I was lucky because my only glitch was a CableCARD that was DOA. Even then, I did all right because the other one worked out of the box and my tech was able to get a replacement for the dead one from a co-worker who was working nearby.

The Dirty Little Secret is that CableCARD technology in its present iteration is not ready for prime time. Nevertheless, the cards can be made to work and usually will work – after awhile. It might not be the cards, though, so you might want to consider getting TiVo to replace your S3, just to make sure that the box isn’t your problem. A fellow here in OKC bought one around the first of the year and had to get TiVo to replace it before he could get it working. Both the new box and the CableCARDs for it proved to be perfect.

Yup. I had to have the Comcast guys over 3 times, and had to make a few phone calls before my S3 was completely up and running. It was simply a matter of getting our hands on some functional cards (inventory was tight a little while back), and getting the installers to hook up with people who knew what they were doing over the phone at Comcast. No TiVo-specific issues at all. It took about a month, all told from start to finish. In the end, it's definitely worth it, and I have no regrets at all.

My cablecards work, but the installer had to bring 3 to get two working ones (motorola, thru Comcast). Two times in fourmonths, I had to call Comcast to re-hit the cards over the phone, following the order on the install sheet. They have worked well for the last two months.

I hope that there can be some sort of converter box that can allow the cards to handle switched video in the future. I like the S3, but I want at least 4-5 years from it for the price I paid.

For those who don't follow TivoCommunity, Tivo just released the v8.3 software for the Series3.

Summary of Changes (preliminary) When viewing the program screen for any recording, you'll now notice a "More Options" menu item. From here you'll be able to schedule additional recordings including the option "Get a Season Pass".


New HDTV option added for searches and wishlists, so you can now choose to find and auto-record only high-definition programs that meet your search criteria. Note the guide data for this feature was just added today, so you won't see this new option until your box has downloaded and indexed that information. According to TivoPony, that may take ~24 hours.


Responsiveness of "Search by Title" and "Grid Guide" is improved, particularly if you've removed a lot of channels from your lineup. Previously, the Series3 would index and process all data for every channel in the entire cable co lineup, regardless of how many channels you actually receive. With this update, channels you've removed from the lineup with the "Do not receive" screen are no longer indexed or processed, thereby improving responsiveness for "Search by Title" and "Grid Guide" display.


If you have folders enabled, the software update also moves the HDTV Recordings folder to the bottom with the other folders (rather than the top).


Should fix REW and FFW "jumping" that users saw with certain providers (FiOS).

I'm sure I'll be labeled a TiVo fanboy (and probably rightly so!), but you're paying for much more than just a guide. There are Season Passes, Wishlists, it properly records first-run episodes, etc, etc. Now I had the Sony DVR, so I know the difference -- and it's monumental. I had many problems with several of the Sony DHG units, but, when they worked, they were fine. They just don't have the bells and whistles the S3 has. Plus the TiVo program guide is light years ahead of TVGOS. I pay $12.95 per month, basically less than 50 cents per day, and I have no problem at all doing it. That's much less than a cup of coffee per day.

I have a Sony DHG unit and its never given me any problems. All the bells and whistles you mentioned don't mean anything to me. I just was to record a program in HD. TVGOS seems ok, I don't know what more you could want. It gives you the schedule with detailed information about the programs and you can search for programs a lot of different ways. What more could you want and use on a daily basis? I also have a MDP-130 card for my computer that records in HD and uses Titan TV to schedule recording from the internet. Again ALL FREE. My only point is TV Guides are available all over the place, (newpaper, Internet, etc., etc. ) and their all free just as my OTA signals are. I don't mind paying $800 for the DVR but for me isn't that enough? Do I have to pay $13 a month for the rest of my life to get something that I can get else where for free?

Marshall

I have a Sony DHG unit and its never given me any problems. All the bells and whistles you mentioned don't mean anything to me. I just was to record a program in HD. TVGOS seems ok, I don't know what more you could want. It gives you the schedule with detailed information about the programs and you can search for programs a lot of different ways. What more could you want and use on a daily basis? I also have a MDP-130 card for my computer that records in HD and uses Titan TV to schedule recording from the internet. Again ALL FREE. My only point is TV Guides are available all over the place, (newpaper, Internet, etc., etc. ) and their all free just as my OTA signals are. I don't mind paying $800 for the DVR but for me isn't that enough? Do I have to pay $13 a month for the rest of my life to get something that I can get else where for free?

Marshall
That’s fair. The S3, plus a programming guide subscription adds up to a lot of money. Thus, for those folks who want a simple time shifting HD DVR and don’t mind limited search functions, the S3 makes no sense. But for those of us who have been spoiled by TiVo’s matchless software, the S3 is worth every penny of its price.

Do I have to pay $13 a month for the rest of my life to get something that I can get else where for free?

Marshall

TiVo service gets you MUCH more than just the guide. Read the thread. and the TiVo forums. And decide for yourself whether 800 (which now includes 3 years of service and a wireless adapter, and free shipping!) is worth it. To me it was - that's all there is to it!

Well, I'm looking at my third cableCARD installation for my single S3 this evening. I'm really thinking of selling my TiVo outright at this point. I've wasted many, many hours on this installation over the past week already. It's not the TiVo's fault, but this is becoming a nightmare.


Have you participated in the various threads on the TiVoCommunity forums? Someone may have been through the same issues in your area, with your provider, and may provide a concrete answer about a fix 9or lack thereof) as well as connect you to the RIGHT installer to get things going!

I have a Sony DHG unit and its never given me any problems. All the bells and whistles you mentioned don't mean anything to me. I just was to record a program in HD. TVGOS seems ok, I don't know what more you could want. It gives you the schedule with detailed information about the programs and you can search for programs a lot of different ways. What more could you want and use on a daily basis? I also have a MDP-130 card for my computer that records in HD and uses Titan TV to schedule recording from the internet. Again ALL FREE. My only point is TV Guides are available all over the place, (newpaper, Internet, etc., etc. ) and their all free just as my OTA signals are. I don't mind paying $800 for the DVR but for me isn't that enough? Do I have to pay $13 a month for the rest of my life to get something that I can get else where for free?

MarshallHave you ever used a TiVo?

I'm considering picking up a S3 from Tivo.com for 499+ service. Just wondering if anyone heard anything about the price drop (supposedly taking place May 1) being lower than or equal to 499. If so, I'd prefer to wait so I can get the multi discount from another retailer.

Anyone know anything?

Thanks,

/m/

No one ever hears anything about these kinds of things. Like I've said before (in the other thread) - if the feature set/service charge/price equation is satisfactory to you NOW, buy it :)

No one ever hears anything about these kinds of things. Like I've said before (in the other thread) - if the feature set/service charge/price equation is satisfactory to you NOW, buy it :)


I appreciate your point of view; however, I am looking for another point of view, should someone wish to voice one. I am familiar with the process of how to make a decision to purchase something; I just want to see if waiting a day or two would benefit me. I apologize if you thought I was addressing my question to you personally.

You're right, no one on this message board may know about anything specific, but it's worth asking, as I'm sure there is someone somewhere who knows. Being that Tivo promised a lower priced series 3, I don't think my question is without merit.


Thanks again for your point of view.


/m/

Have you tried the Tivo community forum?

I appreciate your point of view; however, I am looking for another point of view, should someone wish to voice one. I am familiar with the process of how to make a decision to purchase something; I just want to see if waiting a day or two would benefit me. I apologize if you thought I was addressing my question to you personally.

You're right, no one on this message board may know about anything specific, but it's worth asking, as I'm sure there is someone somewhere who knows. Being that Tivo promised a lower priced series 3, I don't think my question is without merit.


Thanks again for your point of view.


/m/
It seems to me that ashu was suggesting that if one uses the rationale that the price of an S3 or any other HT product may come down or might be replaced by a new model with more and better features as a reason not to buy now, he might never buy because the price of HT gear always comes down over time and is always replaced by newer gear. Thus, it probably makes sense to look at what you would have to pay for the gear right now and decide if you want to buy it at that price. That's a sensible analysis, it seems to me.

The TiVo Community Forum is a good place to start to look for all things TiVo, including current pricing:

http://www.tivocommunity.com

It seems to me that ashu was suggesting that if one uses the rationale that the price of an S3 or any other HT product may come down or might be replaced by a new model with more and better features as a reason not to buy now, he might never buy because the price of HT gear always comes down over time and is always replaced by newer gear. Thus, it probably makes sense to look at what you would have to pay for the gear right now and decide if you want to buy it at that price. That's a sensible analysis, it seems to me.

The TiVo Community Forum is a good place to start to look for all things TiVo, including current pricing:

http://www.tivocommunity.com


I understand his, as well as your point. I think that we could all agree that if one could wait a day or two and save some money, it's usually worth it to do so. Herein lies my question. I have been reading up on tivocommunity, and I appreciate the referral to that site.

For anyone also in my position, I'm thinking that it is probably worth it to buy the S3 from tivo.com, then use the 30 day return policy as insurance. If it drops to 499 or lower after 4/30, I can return it, and buy it somewhere else to get the MSD.


I appreciate the constructive comments.

Thanks,

/m/

I understand his, as well as your point. I think that we could all agree that if one could wait a day or two and save some money, it's usually worth it to do so. Herein lies my question. I have been reading up on tivocommunity, and I appreciate the referral to that site.

For anyone also in my position, I'm thinking that it is probably worth it to buy the S3 from tivo.com, then use the 30 day return policy as insurance. If it drops to 499 or lower after 4/30, I can return it, and buy it somewhere else to get the MSD.


I appreciate the constructive comments.

Thanks,

/m/
That sounds like a sensible plan to me. That way, you protect yourself if the price comes down substanitally during the 30 day window you would have to return your S3.

I ordered my S3 from a no-name Web outfit in late December because I foolishly believed their representation that they had S3s in stock. They didn’t but they immediately charged my credit card and didn’t issue a credit memo until nearly 30 days later. Sleazy bunch. After I learned that the no-name bunch didn’t really have an S3 in stock, I ordered it through Amazon. It cost me $80 more than I had thought I was going to have to pay but I had it within two days because it shipped from Edmond, OK, an OKC suburb. I have never looked back. It was cheap at the price.

I understand his, as well as your point. I think that we could all agree that if one could wait a day or two and save some money, it's usually worth it to do so. Herein lies my question. I have been reading up on tivocommunity, and I appreciate the referral to that site.



You're my kind of fella. Heck, I'd wait months to save a few bucks. Must be my self-denying Roman Catholic upbringing, imparted by my stay-at-home mom who was super shopping thrifty. Utilizing sales and coupons, she'd get genuinely excited if she was able to find a grocery item she wanted for ten cents cheaper. :o

Most people buy today at what they consider to be a reasonable price, only denying themselves the purchase if they are reasonably sure that it will be substantially cheaper within what they consider to be a reasonable amount of time. If no clear-cut answers come from your research over at the Tivo forums, I say wait it out a few more days. You seem like the type more likely to kick yourself if you miss out on whatever the savings turn out to be, if anything does indeed change on May 1st. Good luck.

You're my kind of fella. Heck, I'd wait months to save a few bucks. Must be my self-denying Roman Catholic upbringing, imparted by my stay-at-home mom who was super shopping thrifty. Utilizing sales and coupons, she'd get genuinely excited if she was able to find a grocery item she wanted for ten cents cheaper. :o

Most people buy today at what they consider to be a reasonable price, only denying themselves the purchase if they are reasonably sure that it will be substantially cheaper within what they consider to be a reasonable amount of time. If no clear-cut answers come from your research over at the Tivo forums, I say wait it out a few more days. You seem like the type more likely to kick yourself if you miss out on whatever the savings turn out to be, if anything does indeed change on May 1st. Good luck.


Thanks, yeah, you pegged me. Heck, if I order it today, I probably wouldnt have it until after May 1 anyway (no Costco card here). I guess I'll wait and see...

Thanks again!

/m/

I'm a high end A/V dealer and I personally paid $800.00 (including Lifetime Transfer Fee) for my S3 because I wanted it ASAP.

In a few months when the S3 is selling for half what I paid, I'll probably question why I rushed in and paid so much. In the meantime, I'm enjoying it's unparalleled performance and features. I'm remorse free and am very happy I made the leap.

At this point, my other two TiVo's have the duty of keeping the wife and kids happy while I hoard the S3's hard drive for myself and all the HD material I stuff into it.

There are rumors that TiVo is working on another HD unit to be released later this year that would cost less than the S3. Probably fewer bells and whistles.

There are rumors that TiVo is working on another HD unit to be released later this year that would cost less than the S3. Probably fewer bells and whistles.I doubt the software functionality will be any different, but they'll probably drop the display on the front, and possibly the SATA connector if they haven't had any luck with Cable Labs. They'll also eliminate the second CableCard slot, which is no longer needed to support multi-tuner with CableCard 2.0 (MCards).

The current Tivo Series3 is based on hardware that Broadcom released back in 2005. Broadcom has since released several solutions at equal or lower cost with substantially greater performance.

Tivo Series3
BCM7038 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7038-PB01-R.pdf) (130nm, 420 DMIPS) + BCM7411 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7411-PB07-R.pdf)

Newer Broadcom solutions
BCM7400D (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7400-PB05-R.pdf) (65nm (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=970100), 1000 DMIPS, SATA2 3.0Gbps disk interface, faster bus, DDR2 memory controller, HDMI 1.3 MAC/PHY, on-chip MCARD support)
BCM7401 (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB03-R.pdf) (130nm, 450 DMIPs, integrates BCM7038 and BCM7411 onto a single chip)If they want to offer a "Deluxe" edition with high-quality 1080p output -- great for picture quality and marketing -- they could add a $15 Silicon Optix ReonVX VX-50 (http://www.siliconoptix.com/contentEngine/dspDocumentDownload.cfm?PCVID=2d4893ca-f663-2e08-c62e-314dbfaf0518).

Woot! Just ordered my Series 3. For MattyX, I paid $499 at Tivo.com BUT it was a promotion for previous Tivo owners, sort of a "please come back" promotion that expires on 4-30. $499 included the wifi adapter & free shipping. The timing couldn't be better, I can't wait to ditch my 8300HD and get S3 + Unbox

I've got two Tivo Series 2 systems ... with lifetime subscriptions. Would jump at a Series 3 for $499 ... wonder if it was only for monthly or discontinued subscriptions ... darn !


Edit: Found the link in the Comcast-Tivo thread. Seriously thinking of ordering one today. I'm assuming a newer model will come out before the end of the year, but the current one should do what I want just fine.

bfdtv - darn you.

You've officially made me crave an S3.1 with those specs now, to supplement my S3 :)

If they want to offer a "Deluxe" edition with high-quality 1080p output -- great for picture quality and marketing -- they could add a $15 Silicon Optix ReonVX VX-50 (http://www.siliconoptix.com/contentEngine/dspDocumentDownload.cfm?PCVID=2d4893ca-f663-2e08-c62e-314dbfaf0518).

Hardware has always been relatively cheap. Paying 3-4 engineers a salary of $60,000-$100,000 while working on these products is the expensive part.

Anyone know where and if I can still get the $499 S3 with the free wireless adapter? Thanks.

Anyone know where and if I can still get the $499 S3 with the free wireless adapter? Thanks.Unfortunately, that deal expired 4 days ago. For now, it is back to $599 (Costco).

Underground figured it out

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=350491

Underground figured it out

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=350491Engadget posted an article on enabling eSATA expansion on the Series3 as well:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/04/how-to-use-your-tivo-series3-esata-port-to-add-an-external-driv/

Oh yes very sweet, I can confirm the additional drive works, just tagged a 300 gig drive on to mine. ~80 HRS of HD now.
SWEET.

Underground figured it out

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=350491
I picked up a Seagate 500GB External Drive eSATA 3.0. Model No. ST3500601XS-RK

http://www.compusa.com/products/pro...00GB_Hard_Drive
CompUSA.com: Seagate eSATA 500GB Hard Drive - ST3500601XS-RK - Computer Upgrades » Hard Drives

It was $162 out the door, there was some sort of $20 discount program, plus it comes with a 6' eSATA cable.

Works perfect! :)

Used with 8.3.1

I picked up a Seagate 500GB External Drive eSATA 3.0. Model No. ST3500601XS-RK

http://www.compusa.com/products/pro...00GB_Hard_Drive
CompUSA.com: Seagate eSATA 500GB Hard Drive - ST3500601XS-RK - Computer Upgrades » Hard Drives

It was $162 out the door, there was some sort of $20 discount program, plus it comes with a 6' eSATA cable.

Works perfect! :)

Used with 8.3.1Link dead.

Try this one.

http://www.compusa.com/products/product_info.asp?pfp=SEARCH&Ntt=eSATA&N=0&Dx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&D=eSATA&Ntk=All&product_code=341441&Pn=eSATA_500GB_Hard_Drive
CompUSA.com: Seagate eSATA 500GB Hard Drive - ST3500601XS-RK - Computer Upgrades » Hard Drives

keenan

is the drive quiet?

keenan

is the drive quiet?
It's about as loud as the S3 fan itself, at about 8' away I can't hear either one. It's about the size of a hardback book, so with 6' of cable it can be hidden away pretty effectively. The HDD in my main computer is noisier and that's inside a computer case.

If there's any audio being played, watching TV etc, I can't hear it at all.

I couldn't find any noise specs at the Seagate site.

Anyone used one of these drives before: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148248

Looks like a decent buy for a 750gb 5year warranty drive.

Repost...

Tivo Series3 Drive Expansion: Frequently Asked Questions
How do I enable eSATA drive expansion on the Tivo Series3?

Instructions @ Engadget with screenshots (http://www.engadget.com/2007/05/04/how-to-use-your-tivo-series3-esata-port-to-add-an-external-driv/)
Instructions @ TivoCommunity's Upgrade Center (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=350491)



Is it easy to do? Yes, it is simple and fast.


Is eSATA expansion officially supported by Tivo? Not yet. But it works very well.


Is this expansion sanctioned by CableLabs? Will they make Tivo disable it?

On April 20, CableLabs updated their DFAST licensing agreement to allow Tivo (and others) to support eSATA and other forms of drive expansion without explicit CableLabs approval or certification. Further information is available in this post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5116249&&#post5116249) by dt_dc.



I previously upgraded the internal drive in my Series3. Can I still use eSATA expansion?

No, this method will not work if you previously upgraded your internal drive. An alternative method is in the works to support expansion on upgraded units. More details coming soon.



How reliable is eSATA drive expansion on the Series3? Are there bugs?

The Series3 supports multiple drives the same way the Series2 has done internally for years. The only significant difference is that the Series3 automates the drive "marriage" process, whereas a PC was required to "marry" a second drive to the Series2. The eSATA interface on the Tivo Series3 is very stable and reliable if you use the appropriate hardware. When users do experience problems, a poor eSATA cable is almost always to blame.



Does this work on 8.1.x and 8.3.x? Yes, it also works on the 8.0.1b (factory) software.


What is the maximum capacity supported?

The Series3 currently supports a maximum of 2TB total storage (binary). Indications are that each drive is limited to a maximum of 1TB, but that is not yet confirmed. With the current method -- described in #1 -- you can use a 1TB eSATA drive in addition to the internal 250GB drive, for a total of 1.25TB storage. A future method should allow use of 1TB internal and 1TB eSATA drives.

Note for marketing purposes, most drive manufacturers use the decimal definitions for megabyte and terabyte. For example, the one terabyte drive sold by Hitachi is actually 1,000,000,000,000 bytes, but industry standards define 1TB as 1,099,511,627,776 bytes. Hence, the Series3 actually supports about 10% more capacity than you get with the 1TB eSATA drives now sold at retail.



How much high-definition recording time do I get with a 500GB eSATA drive? With a 750GB? With 1TB?

High-definition programming consumes up to 8.6Gb per hour, but most high-definition programming requires less. With a 500GB eSATA drive, your Tivo Series3 will store a minimum of 81 hours. With a 750GB eSATA drive, you'll get a minimum of 108 hours. With a 1TB eSATA drive, you'll get a minimum of 135 hours. In actual practice, usable storage will be anywhere from 1.3x to 2.0x that amount, depending on what channels you record.

The Tivo System Information screen reports expected capacity during typical use as follows:Tivo System Information: Variable Recording Capacity, Hours

eSATA HD SD
None 32 303
120GB 47 445
250GB 65 ?
300GB 71 673
500GB 98 927
750GB 131 1244
800Gb 138 ?
1 TB 165 1561 Is there any disk preparation required? No.


Do I need to format the drive?

No. There is no disk preparation required of any kind. The Tivo Series3 will automatically repartition and format the drive.



When you add the external drive, are the programs already recorded on the internal disk lost? No.


Will programs recorded before I added the external drive be affected if I remove it? No.


What happens when I disconnect the eSATA drive?

If the eSATA drive is off or disconnected when you power up the Series3, the Tivo will give you two options. You can 1) reboot and reattach the drive or 2) switch the Series3 back to "single-drive mode" which deletes any recordings on that eSATA drive.

If you decide to switch to single-drive mode -- by pressing Thumbs Down three times --- the Series3 may delete some or all of the recordings made since the drive was connected. All recordings on the eSATA drive are deleted. Recordings made before the drive was connected are not affected.

When you disconnect or power off the eSATA drive while the Series3 is on, the Tivo will reboot and ask you to re-connect (or divorce) the drive.



If I want to replace my current eSATA drive, can I just "divorce" it and then "marry" it to another?

Yes, you can repeatedly "divorce" and "marry" the Series3 to as many different eSATA drives as you want, but you'll permanently lose all existing recordings on every drive you divorce. Whenever you "divorce" an eSATA drive, you lose access to its recordings forever. You do not lose recordings made before the drive was added.



Why do I still get the message, "this recording may be deleted {within a day}" when using half my total available space?

The Tivo Series3 always says that when you've used half your space. You can ignore that warning, because the Tivo won't delete any programming until all space is used.



Can I view the recordings on the eSATA drive with my PC?

No. All recordings are encrypted, as required by the CableLabs' licensing agreement (http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdf) (page 30).



My eSATA drive also has a USB port. Can I share it between the Tivo and my PC?

No. The Tivo deletes any existing computer data and creates its own MFS partition. If you are not careful, using the eSATA drive with a PC or MAC could also corrupt the Tivo partition table, causing you to lose all recordings made since you connected the drive.



Can I swap between multiple eSATA drives to multiply my capacity?

No. When you connect an eSATA drive to the Series3, that drive is "married" to the internal hard drive. Only one eSATA drive can be "married" to the Tivo's internal hard drive at any given time. You can "divorce" (remove) an eSATA drive to replace it with another, as per the instructions in #14, but then you lose access to the recordings made on that drive.



I have three Tivo Series3 DVRs, can I move my eSATA drive between them without losing my recordings?

No. The eSATA drive is married to a specific Tivo Series3, and cannot be used with more than one Tivo at a time. Recordings are not viewable on another unit. You can move an eSATA drive from one Tivo to another, but doing so will divorce it from the original and delete any recordings stored on that drive.



Can I backup the recordings on my eSATA drive?

No. Once you seperate a drive from the S3 it "divorces" and any programming recorded on that drive is deleted. You can use a multi-disk RAID1 setup to provide some protection against eSATA drive failure, but you must do so from the beginning.



Can I use a multi-disk eSATA enclosure with RAID?

Yes. However, the Series3 is only confirmed to support external drive capacity up to 1TB.



Are USB drives supported? No, only eSATA.


How important is eSATA drive performance?

Virtually all new 7200rpm SATA drives should provide sufficient throughput to handle three different HDTV streams (two recording, one playback) simultaneously. Tivo guide, indexing, and buffer information is still stored on the internal drive, so external eSATA drive performance shouldn't have any impact on the responsiveness of the program guide or searches.



What features should I look for in a drive or an enclosure?

Any new 7200rpm drive should provide the necessary performance.

As the eSATA drive runs full time with the Tivo Series3, we recommend members select drives certified by the manufacturer for 24/7 operation. Standard desktop drives work just as well in many cases, but buying a drive certified for 24/7 operation provides more assurance of long-term reliability. Ultimately, one must decide whether they are willing to pay a premium for extra 'peace of mind.'

Some drives are specifically marketed for DVR use. These drives are certified for 24/7 operation, but also feature modified firmware to reduce seek noise at the expense of some performance. Performance is very important in a desktop drive for a PC, but less so for eSATA expansion on the Series3, which still uses the internal drive for all guide and index information. You won't notice 20% less performance with an eSATA drive, but you may notice 20% less noise. Examples of drives marketed for DVR use include the Seagate DB35 and Hitachi Cinemastar series.

To best ensure long-term reliability, it is also a good idea to buy a drive or enclosure with a quiet fan. Enclosures without fans can cause some drives to overheat with continuous operation, especially if they are stored in closed cabinets with poor ventilation. Buying a drive or enclosure without a fan for use in an closed cabinet area is just asking for trouble. If you purchase a drive or enclosure without a fan, be absolutely sure it has adequate ventilation.

Another important feature to have in a drive or enclosure is the ability to automatically turn itself back on following a power outage. Many external drives and enclosures use soft power switches that revert back to the 'off' state whenever there is a loss in power, requiring a manual push of the button to turn them back on. In the event of a brief power loss, these soft switch drives are 'off' when the Series3 boots up, and the error screen (described in #14) will result, which asks you to reconnect the drive and reboot the Tivo. Any time your Tivo is stuck on that 'reconnect the drive' screen, it won't record programs you have previously scheduled.

Some enclosures feature a hard switch that will automatically turn the drive back on after a loss in power, so you never have to worry about coming home to a 'reconnect your drive' screen. Products with a hard switch typically have a dedicated on/off toggle at the rear that can be physically moved to the 'on' position and will remain there until you move it back to the 'off' position.



I don't understand why it is important to have a hard power switch. Could you explain some more?

If the eSATA drive isn't 'on' during Tivo startup, the Series3 will sit at the 'reconnect the drive' screen until you physically turn it on, which means any programs you have scheduled do not get recorded. That's why it is important to have an eSATA drive/enclosure with a hard switch that will automatically power back up after brief power outage. The obvious alternative is a UPS; if your drive never loses power, it doesn't matter what kind of power switch it has.



I just bought a new eSATA drive but it didn't include a cable. What kind of cable do I need?

You want an "eSATA II" cable. The Tivo Series3 expects the longer connector found on eSATA II cables. The "eSATA I" cables feature a shorter connector which will not create a reliable connection with the Series3. Both types of cables are sold at Microcenter and Fry's. If your local retailer doesn't label their eSATA cables, then look for one with a longer connector, as pictured in this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=351824).

Cables with a [too] short connector are the #1 cause of problems with eSATA expansion on the Series3.



Where can I order an eSATA cable online?

The Tripp-Lite P950 eSATA cable is confirmed to work well with the Tivo Series3. You can order one from ProVantage.com (http://www.provantage.com/tripp-lite-p950-36i~7TRPA1HW.htm) for about $5. It's also available from Buy.com (http://www.buy.com/prod/Tripp_Lite_eSATA_SATA_II_Signal_Cable_3ft_1_x_eSATA_1_x_eSAT A_eSATA/q/loc/33410/203001124.html) and TheNerds.net (http://www.thenerds.net/index.php?page=productpage&pn=P95018I).

The SIIG CB-SA0111-S1 (1m) and CB-SA0211-S1 (2m) is another eSATA cable that works well -- it is available from Provantage.com (1m (http://www.provantage.com/siig-cb-sa0111-s1~7SISE00F.htm), 2m (http://www.provantage.com/siig-cb-sa0211-s1~7SISE00H.htm)), Buy.com (1m (http://www.buy.com/prod/siig-esata-to-esata-sata-ii-cable-3-28ft-1-x-esata-1-x-esata-cable/q/loc/101/202321891.html), 2m (http://www.buy.com/prod/siig-esata-to-esata-sata-ii-cable-6-56ft-1-x-esata-1-x-esata-cable/q/loc/101/202321862.html)), Amazon.com (1m (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BRQU0Q******nosim/?tag=pricegrabbercpc16-20&creative=380333&creativeASIN=B000BRQU0Q&linkCode=asn), 2m (http://www.amazon.com/SIIG-Serial-ATA-external-cable/dp/B000BRQU10******sr_1_1/103-1675603-7970210?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1181145613&sr=1-1)), and TheNerds.net (1m (http://www.thenerds.net/SIIG_INC_ESATA_TO_ESATA_CABLE_1M_SATA_II_ESATA_TO_ESATA_1M_C ABLE.CBSA0111S1.html), 2m (http://www.thenerds.net/SIIG_INC_SATA_II_2m_cable.CBSA0211S1.html)).



What are recommended drives to use with an eSATA enclosure?

Members concerned about long-term reliability should choose a drive certified for 24/7 operation.
Make Model Size Part # Intended for DVRs Cert. for 24/7 Use
Hitachi Cinemastar 750Gb HCS721075KLA330 Yes Yes
Hitachi Cinemastar 1000Gb HCS721010KLA330 Yes Yes
Seagate DB35 250Gb ST3250820SCE Yes Yes
Seagate DB35 300Gb ST3300820SCE Yes Yes
Seagate DB35 320Gb ST3320820SCE Yes Yes
Seagate DB35 400Gb ST3400820SCE Yes Yes
Seagate DB35 500Gb ST3500830SCE Yes Yes
Seagate DB35 750Gb ST3750640SCE Yes Yes
Seagate DB35 750Gb ST3750840SCE Yes Yes
Seagate Baracuda ES 250Gb ST3250620NS No Yes
Seagate Baracuda ES 400Gb ST3400620NS No Yes
Seagate Baracuda ES 500Gb ST3500630NS No Yes
Seagate Baracuda ES 750Gb ST3750640NS No Yes
WD AV 250Gb WD2500AVJS Yes Yes
WD AV 320Gb WD3200AVJS Yes Yes
WD AV 500Gb WD5000AVJS Yes Yes


Note all of the above models require an eSATA enclosure (FAQ #30). What eSATA enclosures are confirmed to work with a user-supplied SATA drive?
Make Model Fan? Bridge chip? eSATA cable? On/Off switch?
Adaptec ACS-300 No Yes ? Hard
Antec MX-1 Yes Yes Yes Hard
Apricorn EZ Bus DTS Yes Yes Yes Hard
AZiO ENC311SU31 No Yes ? Hard
AZiO ENC311SU41 No Yes ? Hard
Bytecc ME-747 Yes Yes ? Hard
CoolGear SataVault Yes Yes ? Hard
Icy Dock MB559 No Yes ? Hard
Kingwin JT-35EU Yes Yes ? Soft
Sans Digital MS2UT Yes Yes ? Hard
Thecus N2050 Yes Yes ? Soft
Ultra ULT33053 Yes Yes ? Hard
Vantec NexStar3 No Yes ? Hard
WiebeTech TTE0 No No ? Hard


Most other enclosures should work too, they're just not confirmed here
yet. If you've upgraded your Series3, and what you used isn't listed
here, please post or pm what you used.
What eSATA drives with their own enclosure are confirmed to work? Make Model Capacity Fan? eSATA Cable? On/Off switch?
Apricorn EZ Bus DTS 250-750Gb Yes Yes Hard
Apricorn DVR Xpander 250-750Gb Yes Yes Hard
Seagate ST3500601XS-RK 500Gb No No Soft
Seagate Free Agent 250-500Gb No No Soft*1
Seagate Free Agent Pro 320-750Gb No No Soft*1
Western Digital WD5000F032 500GB Yes ? Soft
Western Digital WDG1SU5000N 500Gb No ? Soft*1

*1 These drives do not have a "hard" power switch but they do turn on automatically,
when the device they are connected to is supplied with power.

Aside from the DVR Xpander, these drives are not certified for 24/7 operation,
so their long-term reliability as a DVR drive is unknown. If you want more
assurance of long-term reliability, then you should use a drive certified
24/7 operation with a fan-cooled enclosure (FAQ #29, #30).

If you've upgraded your Series3, and what you used isn't listed here, please
post or pm what you used. Are there any drives or enclosures I should avoid?

A number of members have reported problems with Cavalry CAUE37500 500Gb drives. Initially, most Cavalry drives work just fine, but some develop problems (such as reboots) after several days. The source of the problem isn't known, but the Cavalry CAUE enclosure doesn't include a fan, so it's possible that it lacks sufficient cooling for 24/7 operation. If you buy one of these drives, make sure it is stored in a well-ventilated area.

With regard to external enclosures, units with fans are greatly preferable if you intend to use it in an enclosed space (such as a cabinet) with limited ventilation.



Too much information! Please just tell me what to buy!

The Seagate DB35 and the Antec MX-1 enclosure are a popular combination.



What about the Seagate Free Agent Pro 750Gb? It's on sale for $199.

Many forum members are using the Free Agent Pro 750Gb with their Tivo Series3 with success. It includes an enclosure. It does not include an eSATA cable, so you will need to purchase one (see #27 and #28).

Be aware the Seagate Free Agent Pro isn't certified for 24/7 operation, so its long-term reliability as a DVR drive is unknown. It may work fine for many years or it may die on you in six weeks. That said, Seagate does provide a five-year warranty on this product.

If you buy the Seagate Free Agent Pro, make sure you store it in an area with good ventilation, as its enclosure does not feature a built-in fan. It should not be placed in a closed cabinet with limited or no ventilation.

If possible -- before you install the drive -- connect the Free Agent Pro 750 to a Windows PC via USB. The FAP750 includes a software diagnostic utility you can run to disable spin-down mode in the drive's firmware, as you do not want the drive to spin-down while it is attached to the Series3. If you no longer have the original software and want to download the diagnostics utility separately, you can do so here (http://www.seagate.com/ww/v/index.jsp?locale=en-US&name=fa_desktop&vgnextoid=bcd8d59424b8e010VgnVCM100000dd04090aRCRD). This isn't an absolute requirement, as many are using the FAP750 as it comes out of the box.

May 31 Update: A Word of Caution

After using the FAP750 with the Series3 for a few days, some members reported reliability issues, namely rebooting. As far as we know, these troubles relate to eSATA cabling and drive overheating. Some cables that are confirmed to work with other enclosures do not actually work with the FAP750, since its eSATA connector is a bit larger than normal, which makes for a loose fit with some cables. A loose cable fit can result in corrupted data, and corrupted data causes reboots. The cables listed in FAQ #28 work with the FAP750.

Another serious issue with the Free Agent Pro appears to be overheating. The enclosure does not have a fan and is prone to overheat in enclosed spaces, or rooms with high ambient temperatures. If that sounds like your situation, you may want to avoid the FAP750, return the FAP750 if you've already bought one, or replace its external enclosure with another fan-cooled unit, like the Antex MX-1. Note, however, that if you replace the FAP750's enclosure, you void the warranty, and may no longer be able to return the drive for repair / replacement.




Who figured this all out? Who do I thank?

Others discovered references to the kickstart code in the past, but forum member spike2k5 was the first to actually confirm that eSATA support was functional. He was also the first to publish instructions on the procedure. You may want to check his web site, MFSLive (http://www.mfslive.org/).


Troubleshooting
I can't get my drive to work, what do I do?

The first step is to check your cables. Member kdmorse discovered that the connectors on many eSATA cables sold by major retailers are not sufficiently long to create a reliable connection with the Tivo Series3. Some retailers sell "eSATA I" and "eSATA II" cables. You want the "eSATA II" cable with the longer connector.

If your local retailer doesn't label their eSATA cables, then look for one with a longer connector, as pictured in this thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=351824). Alternatively, you can order the right cable online (see FAQ #28).



I am having trouble applying the code sequence to enable eSATA.

Some devices -- such as microwaves, plasmas, and certain forms of lighting-- can interfere with the Tivo's IR signals, so you may wish to turn those off while applying the key sequence to enable eSATA. It should not matter what remote code you use, but some members have had better success with the Tivo Series3 set to use remote code 0.

Make sure the drive is connected and powered on. Make sure the eSATA cable is seated properly -- some cables "snap" in.

When using the kickstart 62 code sequence to activate eSATA expansion, be sure to hold down the pause key until only the orange LED is lit. This can take up to three minutes. Once the orange LED is lit, release the pause button and then punch 62 on the remote. After you hit 62, the LED will go off and the Series3 will reboot about 30 seconds later, and then you will see a screen that says the second drive is activated.



Help, my Series3 keeps rebooting since I added the eSATA drive!

Reboots are not normal. Most users have not experienced a single reboot since they installed an eSATA drive in their Series3. The Series3 supports multiple drives in the same way as the Series2 (internally), the only significant difference is that the Series3 automates the process and uses the eSATA interface. The eSATA functionality on the Tivo Series3 is very stable if you use the appropriate drive and cable.

Reboots are caused by

poor quality eSATA cable connections (most common);


out-of-spec eSATA implementations (some ultra-cheap enclosures); or


faulty or overheating hard drives.


Recommendations for reliable, trouble-free operation


Use a new, quality eSATA cable with an appropriate connector, like that mentioned in FAQ #28.

Make sure the eSATA cable is seated properly in both the Series3 and the enclosure. Some eSATA cables "snap" in.


Use an eSATA enclosure with a quiet fan and on/off toggle switch like the Antec MX-1 or Apricorn EZ Bus DTS. Both include the appropriate eSATA cable.


Use a newer 7200rpm drive that is rated for 24/7 operation, like the Seagate DB35. See FAQ #31.

I am loving my new S3: should have bought it sooner

I ran into an unusual problem integrating it into my system which made me think I had a defective cablecard or S3:

when using my remote control (RTI T4 with S3 codes learned via IR Pro) I saw several lockups and error messages that one of the cablecards lost its authorization:

turns out I had a corrupted code for number 6: so each time I entered a channel macro with a 6 in it, the S3 gave me a blank screen: relearning the code fixed the issue

Now time to add an external drive :)

Excellent post. I will report back with drive information and external bay.

I'm looking at the ICY DOCK MB559 Series MB559US-1S external drive enclosure HERE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16817198003) , and filling it with a Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB SATA drive HERE (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?item=N82E16822148140) , rather than going with an all-in-one external drive solution. Leaves me with more options should I want to shake things up in the future.

The enclosure gets good marks, is both eSATA and USB2.0. The drive can be cut over to internal PC use in the future should I need to expand my TiVo storage.

so if I'm gettin' this right.. when your eSATA drive dies at some point further down the road, everything you've recorded and saved from the time you first attached your separate eSATA drive will be lost to you, which will be problematic for anyone who likes to store programs for longer term. bummer.

Then again, if your internal Tivo drive dies, you would lose all those programs too, just like you would experience with an eSATA drive malfunction. Only with the eSATA, the pain would be much greater, the larger your chosen eSATA drive capacity.

It'd be cool if there was a way to piggyback on second drive to your eSATA drive for backup purposes, or at least, duplicate your most important recordings to both the internal and the attached eSATA drive.

eater, the larger your chosen eSATA drive capacity.

It'd be cool if there was a way to piggyback on second drive to your eSATA drive for backup purposes, or at least, duplicate your most important recordings to both the internal and the attached eSATA drive.


I *imagine* you could seamlessly use a RAID-1 solution instead of a single external drive - by using a RAID-1 capable external box (by Thecus, Irfant etc) - the S3 wouldn't know better, and I *guess* you'd transparently increase redundancy (for at least the addon drive; if the 250 inside the s3 DIEd, you'd still be SOL).

This is speculation - I'm in the process of reading the TCF thread now, as a prelude to deciding whether to do this NOW or wait until 'official' documentation is released by TiVo!

keenan

is the drive quiet?
I checked the drive today, and it's actually super quiet, it seems to be much quieter today than when I first hooked it up. I may have actually been hearing another piece of equipment when I responded to your original post.

I put my ear right up against the case today, I can barely hear the drive spinning, the S3 itself makes more noise. At 1' distance, I can't hear it at all.

thanks, ashutoshsm. I'll wait for you to come back and dumb-it-down for us here. :D

even if it were possible, I've been balking at the Infrant prices for a couple years now, hoping to eventually purchase one for music/movie file backup/streaming. The idea of adding a second one dedicated to Tivo would be a painful pocketbook proposition. :(

Ordered my Series 3 last week on the last day of the $499 special ... it arrived within 3 days. Comcast came today and installed the cablecards ... it took less than 30 minutes and all seems to be working. Also got the 3 yr subscription plan ... I'm willing to take a chance service will be available for that long. If not, I'll worry about it at that time.

Thanks to AVS, I found out about the special deal, and I'm happy to be able to record HD with my new Tivo!

I *imagine* you could seamlessly use a RAID-1 solution instead of a single external drive - by using a RAID-1 capable external box (by Thecus, Irfant etc) - the S3 wouldn't know better, and I *guess* you'd transparently increase redundancy (for at least the addon drive; if the 250 inside the s3 DIEd, you'd still be SOL).

This is speculation - I'm in the process of reading the TCF thread now, as a prelude to deciding whether to do this NOW or wait until 'official' documentation is released by TiVo!

Sounds do-able. In fact, you should be able to hook up any external drive device that is eSATA capable, such that it provides no more than 1TB of storage. That could be a 2-drive enclosure with 2x1TB running RAID-1, or a 3-drive enclosure with 3x500GB running RAID-5. Lots of different ways to skin that cat.

Of course, it doesn't matter how fault tolerant your external drive is when your internal drive is just as likely to go. That's the bummer of the RAID-0 they're forced to use : when one drive goes, all of the content goes.

Of course, it doesn't matter how fault tolerant your external drive is when your internal drive is just as likely to go. That's the bummer of the RAID-0 they're forced to use : when one drive goes, all of the content goes.

Terrific point - which makes any external RAID implementation overkill.

Terrific point - which makes any external RAID implementation overkill.

Perhaps not. This just occurred to me : what if the internal drive was sufficiently small such that all of the show recordings were forced to the external drive. Swap out the internal 250GB disk for a really small one, say 5-10GB. Since you'd run out of room really quickly on the internal drive, that may force the S3 to push all of the newer recordings to the external set up.

Since we really don't know how this mechanism works yet, this is all speculation. We have no idea how the file striping works when the internal drive fills up (external drive is bigger than the internal), when the external drive fills up (the internal drive is bigger than the external), and so on.

Just a thought...

Can anyone comment on the amount of heat the Tivo S3 boxes put out?

I have a 8300 box supplied by my local cable company and I could use it as a space heater in the winter time. The amount of heat it puts out is becoming an issue in my equipment rack. And I would love to replace it with a box that doesn't put out so much heat.

I looked at a friends Direct TV HR20 HD DVR and it ran just about as hot as the SA 8300.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated...

B

Man, I'm so upset I missed out on that $499 deal...will it probably be a few more months before we see the price drop that low again? Costco's price is still decent, but it's about $100 more at this point.

I just bought a new plasma, and the old dual-tuner S2 is not going over well with the wife, given the amazing picture quality coming through on Discovery HD through the functional, yet really poorly designed Motorola DVR from Cox.

Can anyone comment on the amount of heat the Tivo S3 boxes put out?

I have a 8300 box supplied by my local cable company and I could use it as a space heater in the winter time. The amount of heat it puts out is becoming an issue in my equipment rack. And I would love to replace it with a box that doesn't put out so much heat.

I looked at a friends Direct TV HR20 HD DVR and it ran just about as hot as the SA 8300.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated...

B

Not much heat at all from my 3 series 3 boxes in comparison to my Motorola box I use for On Demand.

S3s generate very little heat. Even with the set of rabbit ears I keep on top of my S3, its case is always cool to the touch.

Perhaps not. This just occurred to me : what if the internal drive was sufficiently small such that all of the show recordings were forced to the external drive. Swap out the internal 250GB disk for a really small one, say 5-10GB. Since you'd run out of room really quickly on the internal drive, that may force the S3 to push all of the newer recordings to the external set up.

Since we really don't know how this mechanism works yet, this is all speculation. We have no idea how the file striping works when the internal drive fills up (external drive is bigger than the internal), when the external drive fills up (the internal drive is bigger than the external), and so on.

Just a thought...

Unlikely. In the past, with S1/S2 and DTiVos - MFSTools only allows/supports EXPANSION. In fact, I've personally observed that an 80GB S2 image cannot be used on another 40/60/80 (different manufacturer, a few less bytes) drive and plunked into the S2/S1 device.

And if you hunt down the OTHER other fora, very little of this is really 'speculative' - there is certainly extensive (and often illegal) hacking underway. It just isn't worth my time/effort/peace of mind :)

RE: heat

same as the others who've responded here.. very little heat generated from mine, and that's with 2"-ish clearance all around with an open back cabinet.

Unlikely. In the past, with S1/S2 and DTiVos - MFSTools only allows/supports EXPANSION. In fact, I've personally observed that an 80GB S2 image cannot be used on another 40/60/80 (different manufacturer, a few less bytes) drive and plunked into the S2/S1 device.

And if you hunt down the OTHER other fora, very little of this is really 'speculative' - there is certainly extensive (and often illegal) hacking underway. It just isn't worth my time/effort/peace of mind :)

Sounds like a definite no-go then.

So, we're left with the option of fault-tolerant external storage, which remains at the peril of the health of the (fault-intolerant) internal drive. Not an ideal situation , by any stretch. The benefits (upgrade without cracking the case and voiding your warranty) may not be worth the risk of losing GB's on content on a faulty internal drive.

So, is there any way to swap out the internal SATA drive for an external fault-tolerant drive array ? Aren't SATA and eSATA nearly identical electrically ? That's the only way I can see beefing up the storage capacity in a safe manner.

This guy did it:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5128250&&#post5128250

"Right now I'm running a 1TB ext raid array attached to the sata plug on the motherboard."

and this guy:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=4482352&&#post4482352

LOL i guess there is some sort of redundancy if your drives fail with RAID-1.. I think it still is a little over cautious.

LOL i guess there is some sort of redundancy if your drives fail with RAID-1.. I think it still is a little over cautious.

Good God man, think about what you are saying!!! We are talking about recorded TV shows here!!!!

;) ;) :D :D

Randy

Good God man, think about what you are saying!!! We are talking about recorded TV shows here!!!!

;) ;) :D :D

Randy


THANKYOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:)

Good God man, think about what you are saying!!! We are talking about recorded TV shows here!!!!

;) ;) :D :D

Randy

Maybe we should all buy HD DVD recorders - if we could figure out which technology is here to stay. <g>

CB

RE: heat

same as the others who've responded here.. very little heat generated from mine, and that's with 2"-ish clearance all around with an open back cabinet.

Don't forget that the Mototola boxes don't have fans and many open grill slots on the top for the heat to rise. The TiVo boxes have nice (quiet) fans at the rear...

1. I have one channel that I cannot receive (channel #137 - Hallmark). It comes up with a black screen. While I rarely watch it, my parents do when they are over visiting (they loves them some Matlock!). What causes this? Is it a bad cable card? I tried both tuners and neither can receive it. All the channels around #137 come in just fine, and as far as I can tell this is the only channel which doesn't work on my TiVO.

2. On a different note, Comcast has really annoyed me recently. I tried to get the PPV fight last Saturday, and based on everything I researched it should have worked, but it didn't. The details of the incident are long and boring, but ultimately their CSR was extremely rude and I no longer want to pay them $125 month for rude service and hearing "Oh, you have a Cable Card... *sigh*" every time I call.

So... I'm looking at Dish Network. They have lots of HD, and from what I've read their DVR is very good. I've prepaid for a few years of TiVO service, so if I cancel, will TiVO give me a prorated refund?

Thanks,

Jeff

P.S. - If it turns out I can get Dish, I'll probably have an S3 for sale cheap... :)

Anyone else receive a service update today?

Anyone else receive a service update today?

Looks that way - my status in Network Settings reads "Pending restart."

Mine just downloaded something needing a restart too.

I got a service update 2 days ago...not sure if it's the same one mentioned here...

Just got the update, too.

Yeah got the 8.3 release... happy to say the esata external still running strong.

Hi. I am considering switching to Tivo from my current SA8300HD setup. I am sold on Tivo, if not quite the price. One question I had. If I have multiple Tivos, do I pay one price for the service, or do I pay per unit? When I had Tivos with DirecTV, I paid one fee for as many Tivos as I could fit in my house. From what I can tell, this is not the case with non-satelltite Tivos.

Thanks,
Ted

You will pay for each unit but there is a Multi-Service Discount for up to five boxes. You can find the details here.
http://www.tivo.com/1.6.2.asp#MSD

You will pay for each unit but there is a Multi-Service Discount for up to five boxes. You can find the details here.
http://www.tivo.com/1.6.2.asp#MSD

Cool. Thanks.

Ted

I paid for 3 years upfront for my first box for $299 which averages out to $8.30 a month. Then my other two boxes I signed up for 3 years with the monthly service so with the multi unit discount it's $6.95 a month for each of those.

FYI:

TiVo Introduces 'Swivel Search' Feature
May 15, 2007, 5:03 PM

TiVo on Tuesday unveiled a new feature to help customers navigate through the hundreds of channels they receive and find programming that actually interests them. Named "Swivel Search," the new option will begin rolling out to Series2 and Series3 TiVo users Tuesday.

Dubbed the first "TV-centric on-screen search tool," Swivel Search (view a demo) http://www.tivo.com/swivel_demo/moreOptions.html starts on a program itself rather than requiring the user to type in keywords or titles. TiVo customers can select "More options" on a program to access the feature, which pulls up detailed information on the show or movie.


Swivel Search displays upcoming showings and programs the viewer might also enjoy. In addition, a list of the program's cast are displayed, enabling the user to see what else each actor or actress has starred in. TiVo has also included tags for each program, which enables users to find other programs with the same topics or terms.

"We know that as broadband video continues its rapid growth, and broadcast and cable programming continue to proliferate, consumers are finding it more and more difficult to find the content they want, when they want it. Now there is a fun and easy new way for TiVo subscribers to explore the few degrees of separation connecting content that they enjoy," remarked TiVo CEO Tom Rogers.

Swivel Search is also compatible with TiVoCast programming, as well as titles from Amazon's Unbox service, which lets TiVo customers download movies and other content over the Internet directly to their DVR.

TiVo subscribers can sign up at www.tivo.com/priority to ensure Swivel Search is delivered to their set-top boxes as soon as possible.

I noticed it only has 32 hours of HD storage and no mention of any ability to add additional hard drives. Plus it says the eSata port is "reserved for future use".

What's the chance of TIVO offering larger internal hard drive sizes in the near future?

If I buy it now and they later enable either the eSata or USB ports for expanding storage, will that be a software upgrade that I can download (or that gets automatically pushed to the box) or will I need to replace the whole box?

The eSATA port on the back can now be enabled via a short process. It works on both 8.1 and 8.3 apparently, so as long as you have at least the 8.1 software version, it works. I have a Cavalry 500 GB drive hooked up to it now, and the unit reports 98 HD hours, 927 SD hours.

You can upgrade the internal drive, too, but that is a more expensive (and time-consuming) task, it seems.

Yup, just bought a 500GB Seagate drive and it literally took 5 minutes to install/activate it. Works like a charm.

...You can upgrade the internal drive, too, but that is a more expensive (and time-consuming) task, it seems.Not time consuming at all, if you buy a preformatted drive. I was up and running within a half hour with a Seagate 750GB DB35 from WeaKnees. But, yes, it is a bit more expensive though prices seem to be coming down.

Does anyone out there know if the TiVo wireless G adapter supports WPA encryption? I moved my S2 to the bedroom, but had to go back to the phone connection. I would like to put a wireless G adapter in there, but my network uses WPA rather than WEP. I don't want to go back to WEP just for TiVo.

I use WPA in my home network, and my TIVO wireless G adapter works fine with it.

Has anyone bought a TiVo Series 3 to replace a SA8300HD-DVR from their CATV provider? How does the quality of recorded content compare between these two units? Is there a noticeable difference in picture that can be attributed to the respective tuners/MPEG decoders? Are the input signals w/CableCARD selectable (e.g. 480p & 1080i)? My 50PX50U will support only native incoming signals 480i/720p/1080i w/CableCARD installed and IMO... 480i up converted to 480p & 720p up converted to 1080i seem to look best on this TV.

I did just this two months ago. The quality is better in all respects, to my untrained eyes and ears. Yes, you can choose between several input signals. I leave mine at 1080i fixed and it seems to look fabulous. But you can choose Native, 720p, etc. if you so choose.

The main thing, though, is that it is a TIVO. I owned a DirecTIVO for four years, and an SA8300HD for two years, and now back to TIVO (Series 3). I paid $650 for the box and $299 for three years of subscription. It's definitely like driving a Lexus after driving a Yugo for a few years. And now that the eSata port is active, I have almost 100 HD hours available. And fantastic search capabilities. And Wishlists. And it's a photo and music server. And the remote control is a work of art. I could go on and on...

Yep External ESATA drive and WPA working

The interface is all I hear about with this unit. I'm not implying that everyone is just trying to find reasons for justifying the purchase of the box; however, I can't imagine that an interface is worth $800.


The interface IS much better. So is everything else.

1) Season Passes. The 8300 HD of course lets you set recurring recordings, but you can't prioritize them like you can with TIVO. With TIVO, your higher preference recordings will get recorded in the case of conflicts.

2) Wishlists. TIVO will let you set Wishlists, like "Sitcoms" or "Scarlett Johansson", or "Atlanta Braves", and then you can peruse these as you like to see upcoming programs. You can even set Auto-Recording Wishlists, and your Wishlist items will record automatically. For example, I love poker, so I set up a Wishlist for "Poker", and TIVO will record any program it finds with poker somewhere in the description. Try THAT with the SA8300HD.

3) TIVO suggestions. TIVO will eventually catch on to the kind of stuff you like and start recording stuff for you. I love coming home and finding stuff TIVO has recorded for me. Sometimes I discover great shows this way. TIVO handles these shows intelligently (they never bump recordings you have setup, and get deleted if the drive gets full). Nothing even remotely like this on the 8300HD.

4) Recently Deleted Folder. This is entirely missing from the SA8300HD, if I recall. If you delete something and later wish you had not, you can retrieve your show. These shows get permantly deleted first, when the hard drive gets full.

5) 30 second skip. I love this button. Not officially supported, but works great. Not available on the SA8300HD.

6) Better video and audio quality.

7) It is a music and photo media server, meaning I can listen to my computer's MP3's and look at my photos using the TIVO. The 8300HD? Nope.

8) Podcasts. I can subscribe to any Podcast I choose using the TIVO and listen to them at my leisure. You guessed it - not available on the 8300HD.

9) TIVO remembers where I was when I stop watching a show. In fact, I can have multiple shows already started watching, and TIVO remembers where I left off with each of them. Like bookmarks, really. The 8300HD cannot do this.

10) Universal Swivel Search. This is very new, but I love it already. It lets you easily find shows similar to the one you are studying, and lets you link easily to other shows your favorite actors are in. I'm not doing this feature justice. You really have to see it in action. It's like having a direct link to an Imdb-type database.

11) The peanut remote is a thing of beauty. The keys are nicely backlit, with the words on the keys. There is a nice ribbing on the bottom so you easily tell which way is up in the dark. There is an aspect ration button. And most importantly, it is a learning remote, which means you can control your other devices. In fact, you can teach it some functions from the TIVO menu. Doing this alone I was able to control my TV's on/off, my stereo's volume, and the TIVO, of course.

12) Weather and traffic updates. No such thing on the SA8300HD.

13) TIVOcasts, which are video podcasts. Not a lot of content yet, but I love CNET and The Onion. They keep adding new TIVOcasts. MIA on the 8300HD.

14) Search by Title is MUCH better on the TIVO. IIRC, on the 8300HD you could only search by title on one specific day at a time. The TIVO will let you search your entire lineup for the next two weeks. Also, you can filter your search, or your guides, for that matter, by HD shows only.

15) Two weeks of guide data instead of one.

16) My 8300HD occassionally would not record something. When it did this, it would offer no explanation. TIVO has a handy recording history that explains why a certain show may not have recorded.

17) Show padding. TIVO will prompt you to pad live shows by minutes or even hours so you don't miss that last hour of the Academy Awards.

18) Intelligent conflict resolution. If, because of show overruns, a conflict occurs, TIVO will shave a few minutes off your lower priority show. Example (Dual Tuners assumed): Show A runs from 8:00-9:00. Shows B and C run from 9:00 to 10:00. If Show A ends up running until 9:02, most DVR's (including the TIVO of yore), will actually not record either show B or C in their entirety. The new TIVO will make a decision based on your shows' priorities, and will shave minutes off the lowest priority show. For example, if Show A is the lowest priority, it will cut off the last two minutes, and record B & C in their entirety. If Show B is the lowest priority, it will clip the first two minutes of it to catch all of Shows A and C. But you'll still get 58 minutes of Show B.

Whew! Sorry to get so long-winded. As you can tell, I'm a bit of a Tivangelist. But having had both TIVO and SA8300HD for years, I'm in a position to have studied both pretty in-depth.

So, I hope I have shown that TIVO is not just "a prettier interface".

AMEN!

Also, I'm somewhat unclear on whether the Tivo can search for programs that are only in high definition.

Yes, it can with the new 8.3 software.

This was the one feature of my TiVo that I absolutely hated. It kept trying to record stuff that I had no interest in based on what it thought were my viewing habits. Wasted space for things I would never watch. I disabled the feature.

If you'll give it time, and religously give thumbs-up or thumbs-down to programming, you'll find it gets better and better at guessing your interests. I usually go into my suggestions list and spend a few minutes every day giving the thumbs.

TIVO suggestions only record when you have spare space, they never bump recordings you setup, and they get deleted first whenever you start running out of space. So you can't really say that they "waste space". They're handled intelligently.

OUCH! Not what I wanted to hear. I just got my S3 for FIOS and I've loved the very quick channel changes of the Motorola FIOS box. If this thing is that slow, I'm sending it back. Quick channel changes really make the viewing experience much more fun. I don't have the cable cards yet, so I can't say from my own experience.

I pretty much never "channel surf" anymore. That is so 90's. ;)

Really, though, TIVO has changed my habits so much I RARELY watch live TV. If I want to watch something, there is always something waiting for me in my Now Playing List or TIVO Suggestions. And if not, I search for something via my Wishlists or do a Search by Title for something specific. If I do watch live TV (rare), I pull up the Guide (TIVO Guide, not Grid Guide), and I can see what's on about ten channels at once, and what's on for the next eight to twelve hours on any specific channel.

While it may not make sense to you, for me, after shelling out $800 for the unit it doesn't make sense to me to have to pay another $13/mth just for the privilege of being able to use that unit that I paid $800 for. To each their own and to me that means no TIVO.

Which is a shame, since they seem to be really nice units....

I got mine for about $650, and I paid for three years upfront for $299, which is $8.31/month. After having a POS SA8300HD for two years, I'm loving this TIVO S3.

Also very happy with my Tivo Series 3 -

A question on the e-Sata drive ... how does this work with the Tivo software? Does the Tivo just recognize the extra HD space, and it's thus transparent to the user?

Instructions can be found at TivoCommunity forum
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5124019&&#post5124019

It's not plug and play but, it is simple. You can also find a list of what drives and enclosures are working in that first post.

The interface IS much better. So is everything else.

5) 30 second skip. I love this button. Not officially supported, but works great. Not available on the SA8300HD.

So, I hope I have shown that TIVO is not just "a prettier interface".

How do you do a 30 second skip?

Thenks, CB

How do you do a 30 second skip?

Thenks, CB

select, play, select, 3, 0, select

It's just one of many "SPS" codes that the TiVo recognizes. HERE (http://tivo.drosoph.com/) is a list of those codes. I use the shortcuts (TiVo + number) all of time (TiVo+1 = Season Pass Manager, TiVo+2=ToDo List, etc).

Be careful though, some of more arcane codes them can mess up your unit.

CableCard 2 has died. In CableCard menu where it should show Host ID, I get a message:

"There was a technical problem during the authorization of this device, Please contact retailer."

Yesterday both cards worked fine.

Is this a Time Warner or TiVo problem?

Thanks, CB

Also very happy with my Tivo Series 3 -

A question on the e-Sata drive ... how does this work with the Tivo software? Does the Tivo just recognize the extra HD space, and it's thus transparent to the user?
It's simple. You turn off the S3, hook up and power up the eSATA drive, turn on the TiVo holding the pause button, wait for a light change, hit 62, and it will reboot and recognize the new drive.

When TiVo reboots, it says, "Additional Hard Drive Recognized" on the startup screen and finishes. And from there it's totally transparent to you.

Hmmm....."monthly ransom" = $12.95 per month....I guess your definition of a "monthly ransom" is a lot different than mine. That's about two lunches eating out per month :rolleyes:

Exactly. I paid an average of $8.31/month (paying $299 for three years). We pay $477 a month for health insurance for the wifey and myself, and that is cheap compared to what some families pay. That's a monthly ransom!

Actual experiences are all over the map... from absolutely simple 15 minute job to total failure after multiple visits. I believe the total failures are very much a minority (but that doenst make those in that group feel any better). It really depends on the cableco and what tech they send. Mine took several hours but was successful on the first visit. YMMV. Youre gonna love the S3! It does have a few bugs they are working on though... such is life for early adopters.

Good Luck!
Don

My install was not without problems, either. But a determined installer, a few calls, a few "hits", and a few guided setups later (total of about three hours in the house), saw my TIVO S3 working perfectly. It really is an amazing unit, truly the Cadillac of DVR's.

My install was not without problems, either. But a determined installer, a few calls, a few "hits", and a few guided setups later (total of about three hours in the house), saw my TIVO S3 working perfectly. It really is an amazing unit, truly the Cadillac of DVR's.

I totally agree. Even within the same area you can have different experiences. My initial install went fine, I had a supervisor and a lead tech come out to do the install. The supervisor even left his card for me if I had any problems. About a month later I noticed I was having problems receiving certain channels. With the takeover from Adelphia I was moved from Macedonia to Concord office. Tech came out with a whole different attitude (negative) and when I called the supervisor he apologized and explained he couldn't help me. He did however contact someone in head end who called me and helped me with my problem.

I disagree though about "Cadillac" it's more of a Rolls Royce IMHO. :)

Exactly. I paid an average of $8.31/month (paying $299 for three years). We pay $477 a month for health insurance for the wifey and myself, and that is cheap compared to what some families pay. That's a monthly ransom!Agreed. The monthly fee for Tivo pales in comparison to other common monthly expenses (mortgage, health insurance, car insurance, electricity, gas, etc).

By the same token, those are essential expenses, while TiVo is a discretionary expense.

I had not visited this thread for awhile so let me address several topics that have been discussed lately:

1. The S3 is dramatically superior to the SA 8300HD in every way but price. The 8300HD provides a reliable, albeit basic, HD DVR for a fraction of what an S3 costs. Thus, if price is your most important consideration, stick with the 8300HD. Despite its high price, I bit the bullet the first of the year and bought an S3 to replace my old 8300HD from Cox OKC. The delivered price for the S3 was $680 from Amazon. I had a TiVo S1 with a lifetime subscription and I transferred it to my S3 for a one-time payment of $199. It’s the best money I have ever spent on a piece of HT gear, in a class with my HDTV and 5.1 receiver. If your cable company’s charges are anything like Cox OKC’s, replacing your old 8300HD with an S3 should reduce your cable bill by about $10 a month.

2. The S3’s capabilities and flexibility put it in a class by itself. No other HD DVR comes close. I hated, hated, hated the 8300Hds inability to allow you to go back to the place where you had quit watching a recorded program, even after you had started watching another. My S3 has shown virtually no limitations on this score, even if I have been going back and forth between 5 or 6 recordings. I could go on but others have already provided useful summaries of the superiority of the S3’s software.

3. If you decide to buy an S3, be prepared for some frustration before your CableCARDs are satisfactorily configured. Cable companies have been very slow to provide adequate support for CableCARDs, so it may take you awhile for them to get yours right. At least 90% of CableCARD problems are not hardware related but are configuration problems. The good news is that virtually every new S3 owner who has been reasonably patient has managed to get it satisfactorily configured. Any hassles will be worth it. Trust me on this.

4. Having to program the 30 second skip feature can be a bit of a hassle. The S3 is notoriously finicky about accepting the code. Be patient. It will eventually work. For example, last night after a reboot, I had to try the program 5 or 6 times before I got it right but I did and I wasn’t very concerned because I knew it would work eventually. The elimination of the need to have to use a code and the addition of a dedicated 30 second skip button on the remote would be number one on my wish list for new features, though.

would someone provide a link for the 30 second skip for the S3?

Thanks

would someone provide a link for the 30 second skip for the S3?

Thanks
[Select - Play - Select - 3 - 0 - Select] and I think it has to be done while watching a recorded program.

gwsat, I've noticed the same thing, sometimes I have to use the above command 2 or 3 times before the S3 will take it.

I had not visited this thread for awhile so let me address several topics that have been discussed lately:

1. The S3 is dramatically superior to the SA 8300HD in every way but price. The 8300HD provides a reliable, albeit basic, HD DVR for a fraction of what an S3 costs. Thus, if price is your most important consideration, stick with the 8300HD. Despite its high price, I bit the bullet the first of the year and bought an S3 to replace my old 8300HD from Cox OKC. The delivered price for the S3 was $680 from Amazon. I had a TiVo S1 with a lifetime subscription and I transferred it to my S3 for a one-time payment of $199. It’s the best money I have ever spent on a piece of HT gear, in a class with my HDTV and 5.1 receiver. If your cable company’s charges are anything like Cox OKC’s, replacing your old 8300HD with an S3 should reduce your cable bill by about $10 a month.

2. The S3’s capabilities and flexibility put it in a class by itself. No other HD DVR comes close. I hated, hated, hated the 8300Hds inability to allow you to go back to the place where you had quit watching a recorded program, even after you had started watching another. My S3 has shown virtually no limitations on this score, even if I have been going back and forth between 5 or 6 recordings. I could go on but others have already provided useful summaries of the superiority of the S3’s software.

3. If you decide to buy an S3, be prepared for some frustration before your CableCARDs are satisfactorily configured. Cable companies have been very slow to provide adequate support for CableCARDs, so it may take you awhile for them to get yours right. At least 90% of CableCARD problems are not hardware related but are configuration problems. The good news is that virtually every new S3 owner who has been reasonably patient has managed to get it satisfactorily configured. Any hassles will be worth it. Trust me on this.

4. Having to program the 30 second skip feature can be a bit of a hassle. The S3 is notoriously finicky about accepting the code. Be patient. It will eventually work. For example, last night after a reboot, I had to try the program 5 or 6 times before I got it right but I did and I wasn’t very concerned because I knew it would work eventually. The elimination of the need to have to use a code and the addition of a dedicated 30 second skip button on the remote would be number one on my wish list for new features, though.

Well, Hello counselor it is good to see you again. Fortunately I can still post around here, however I must be careful as I'm probably watched like a hawk around here.

1. Again I have to point out that the reliability factor of the SA 8300 is something that YOU have experienced but myself and many others have not. As you are aware I was getting as many as 4 partial recoridngs per week. Matter of fact it was the reliability factor that made me dump that pos. Plus it's inability to resolve unseen conflicts, not able to not record a single show when you had all shows recording....I could go on and on.

2. Agree with you 100%

3. While cable card install is certainly something that cab be a pia, I believe the majority of people at this stage of the game have a great deal less problems. From what I saw before I was so unfairly banned from the TiVo forum, complaints have gone down. Not that I can visit the TiVo Forum. I am banned. So I couldn't possibly even look. ;) Oh and really I wasn't banned I told them to boot me because they were gunning for me. They more then happily obliged. :D

4. Totally disagree. The 30 second skip and tick is very easy to do, even with my harmony remote. Most people screw it up because they don't have it on an analog program so they can't hear the sounds or they don't realize it's a toggle switch and they often turn it on, don't hear sounds then turn it off - and then they are off to the races. :)

Anyway IMHO the SA 8300 can't even lick the S3's foot pads. The only thing that the SA 8300 did that the S3 didn't was eSATA, and in my case that made my SA 8300 even more unreliable in missing recordings so I had to disconnect that. Now that you can use eSATA on the S3 that's one other thing that makes it better. Oh, and it hasn't caused me to miss any recordings.

Good to see you again. Let eveyone know at TiVo Forum I said hi. :)

Well, Hello counselor it is good to see you again. Fortunately I can still post around here, however I must be careful as I'm probably watched like a hawk around here.

. . .

3. While cable card install is certainly something that cab be a pia, I believe the majority of people at this stage of the game have a great deal less problems. From what I saw before I was so unfairly banned from the TiVo forum, complaints have gone down. Not that I can visit the TiVo Forum. I am banned. So I couldn't possibly even look. ;) Oh and really I wasn't banned I told them to boot me because they were gunning for me. They more then happily obliged. :D

. . .

Good to see you again. Let eveyone know at TiVo Forum I said hi. :)
Good to hear from you again, too. You were banished from the TiVo Community Forum (sort of)? Goodness, I didn’t even know that the moderators over there ware Amish. :)

[Select - Play - Select - 3 - 0 - Select] and I think it has to be done while watching a recorded program.



Thanks

do you have to enter those codes each time you want the skip?

Thanks

do you have to enter those codes each time you want the skip?

Nope. That enables the 30-sec skip behavior. To actually skip the 30-seconds, you hit the skip-to-tick button ( -->| ) while you're watching something.

The only gotcha is that this "setting" doesn't persist across reboots, so you've got to re-enable it at those times.

By the same token, those are essential expenses, while TiVo is a discretionary expense.

BLASPHEMY!!! :D

Shocker, I know. :) However, even subscription television expenses themselves, beyond lifeline service, are indeed discretionary.

I thought I would pass some information for S3 users that they may be interested in. Star Wars is going to be broadcast on Cinemax on May 25 and on HBO on June 1. All 6 episodes, in "order".

Now here's the deal. If you use Cinemax you won't be able to group them in a folder as they use the original titles without "Star Wars" ("Return of the Jedi" for example). If you set up a search on "HD & Star Wars" on HBO however it will record all 6 episodes in one folder because it titles them as Star Wars Episode 1 thru 6.

For those of you with expanded hard drives either internal or external, this may be a keeper. ;)

I thought I would pass some information for S3 users that they may be interested in. Star Wars is going to be broadcast on Cinemax on May 25 and on HBO on June 1. All 6 episodes, in "order".

Now here's the deal. If you use Cinemax you won't be able to group them in a folder as they use the original titles without "Star Wars" ("Return of the Jedi" for example). If you set up a search on "HD & Star Wars" on HBO however it will record all 6 episodes in one folder because it titles them as Star Wars Episode 1 thru 6.

For those of you with expanded hard drives either internal or external, this may be a keeper. ;)
I found them yesterday while I was browsing HD movies, thanks to 8.3’s ability to restrict searches to HD programs only. I don’t subscribe to Cinemax but I found the HD versions on HBO all listed together as, “Star Wars Episode I,” “Star Wars Episode II,” etc., and set up all six to record. I am pleased that HBO did it that way, because I probably would not have bothered to record any of them if I had not immediately seen that all six episodes were to be shown consecutively in the chronological order of the story line. I think that will be a pretty neat way to watch them.

...Let eveyone know at TiVo Forum I said hi. :)
Hook! Good to see (hear) (read) you again...the TCFs haven't been the same without you. No one can fill your shoes!

Hook! Good to see (hear) (read) you again...the TCFs haven't been the same without you. No one can fill your shoes!

I usually just post in the local thread. I'll try and get over here every now and then. Thanks for your kind words. :)

NICE!


I found them yesterday while I was browsing HD movies, thanks to 8.3’s ability to restrict searches to HD programs only. I don’t subscribe to Cinemax but I found the HD versions on HBO all listed together as, “Star Wars Episode I,” “Star Wars Episode II,” etc., and set up all six to record. I am pleased that HBO did it that way, because I probably would not have bothered to record any of them if I had not immediately seen that all six episodes were to be shown consecutively in the chronological order of the story line. I think that will be a pretty neat way to watch them.

The interface IS much better. So is everything else.

1) Season Passes. The 8300 HD of course lets you set recurring recordings, but you can't prioritize them like you can with TIVO. With TIVO, your higher preference ...........
So, I hope I have shown that TIVO is not just "a prettier interface".


AWESOME POST.
Thankyou for compiling this information. People often ask me why I got a TIVO.
This is a perfect response.

I added a Seagate 500gb eSata external drive: worked first time

Thanks to all for the detailed instructions :)

The only downside is Comcast is now charging me for Cablecards ( have 6 cards)

It is not my intent to be a SA8300HD apologist. In fact, I am reading this forum to help me decide if the S3 is worth the money. I had 2 DirecTivos and loved them.

The 5 assertions quoted below may be true for SARA, but those of us lucky enough to get Passport do have these features or some form of them, so it isn't always quite as bad as all that. #18 is somewhat inconsistent on my SA8300, but the others are there more or less.

Now I just need to convince myself (and my wife) that the S3 is worth it, although, to be honest, if DirecTV does manage to roll out all those new HD channels, even HD Lite which I am getting in many cases from TWC anyway, I may have to seriously consider going back to satellite.

1) Season Passes. The 8300 HD of course lets you set recurring recordings, but you can't prioritize them like you can with TIVO. With TIVO, your higher preference recordings will get recorded in the case of conflicts.

9) TIVO remembers where I was when I stop watching a show. In fact, I can have multiple shows already started watching, and TIVO remembers where I left off with each of them. Like bookmarks, really. The 8300HD cannot do this.

14) Search by Title is MUCH better on the TIVO. IIRC, on the 8300HD you could only search by title on one specific day at a time.

17) Show padding. TIVO will prompt you to pad live shows by minutes or even hours so you don't miss that last hour of the Academy Awards.

18) Intelligent conflict resolution. If, because of show overruns, a conflict occurs, TIVO will shave a few minutes off your lower priority show. Example (Dual Tuners assumed): Show A runs from 8:00-9:00. Shows B and C run from 9:00 to 10:00. If Show A ends up running until 9:02, most DVR's (including the TIVO of yore), will actually not record either show B or C in their entirety. The new TIVO will make a decision based on your shows' priorities, and will shave minutes off the lowest priority show. For example, if Show A is the lowest priority, it will cut off the last two minutes, and record B & C in their entirety. If Show B is the lowest priority, it will clip the first two minutes of it to catch all of Shows A and C. But you'll still get 58 minutes of Show B.

Now I just need to convince myself (and my wife) that the S3 is worth it, although, to be honest, if DirecTV does manage to roll out all those new HD channels, even HD Lite which I am getting in many cases from TWC anyway, I may have to seriously consider going back to satellite.
I replaced an SA 8300HD running SARA software with an S3 in early January. I love my S3 and do not regret having paid the price for the box, $680, and for the right to transfer my lifetime subscription from an old S1 to it, $199. Nevertheless, even running the execrable SARA software, I am convinced that there is no economic justification for the S3. On a dollars and cents basis its price plus that of a TiVo subscription are exponentially higher than the rental price of an 8300HD, which is usually less than $10 a month.

I bit the bullet and decided to buy an S3 despite its high price because if I didn’t buy while I could still transfer the lifetime subscription from my old S1 to an S3, I would probably never do so. As noted above, I am very pleased with my decision, despite the high price I paid.

I have never seriously considered D*, for the same reason I resisted buying an S3 for as long as I did: the cost of subscribing to D*’s service plus having to pay several hundred dollars for a compatible DVR looks way too high to me when compared to the less than $10 a month rental price of an 8300HD. My decision to buy an S3 was made easier because Cox OKC also provides my high speed Internet and telephone service, for which I receive a single monthly bill. Also, cable, Internet, and telephone are cheaper that way than they would be if I subscribed to only one or two of them.

My bottom line is this: if you can afford an S3 and won’t be bothered by the economic irrationality of buying one, do it. If you are anything like me, you will be glad you did.

The 5 assertions quoted below may be true for SARA, but those of us lucky enough to get Passport do have these features or some form of them, so it isn't always quite as bad as all that.
Hi Ted, I'm in Greensboro. You do know that PASSPORT is soon to be gone, right? Everyone is getting replaced with the Navigator which is much more like SARA than PASSPORT. I don't know when the Triangle area will get it, but it's coming. Ultimately, you're the only one who can decide if the S3 is worth it. For me, with SARA, it was a no brainer. But that also depends on your money situation and your definition of "value" and "worth it". To me, it is, to others, it may not be.

Hi Ted, I'm in Greensboro. You do know that PASSPORT is soon to be gone, right? Everyone is getting replaced with the Navigator which is much more like SARA than PASSPORT. I don't know when the Triangle area will get it, but it's coming. Ultimately, you're the only one who can decide if the S3 is worth it. For me, with SARA, it was a no brainer. But that also depends on your money situation and your definition of "value" and "worth it". To me, it is, to others, it may not be.

Yeah, that is one reason we are looking at the S3. I am afraid Navigator will kill my eSATA port, dropping me from 60 hours of HD recording to 20. It seems they are having lots of trouble with Navigator, so I am dreading the day.

I think the big decision for me will end up being cable with S3 or D* with HR20. D* has been trying to get me back with offers of free HS20s, so it may be worth it. I wish I could try one out first though. I have played around with the S3 and had Tivos previously, so it is a known quantity. Reviews of the HR20 are all over the place.

Ted

Yeah, that is one reason we are looking at the S3. I am afraid Navigator will kill my eSATA port, dropping me from 60 hours of HD recording to 20. It seems they are having lots of trouble with Navigator, so I am dreading the day.
Well, now with the S3 eSATA active, adding tons of room is EASY. I added the 500GB Seagate drive in 5 mins.

Well, now with the S3 eSATA active, adding tons of room is EASY. I added the 500GB Seagate drive in 5 mins.
I haven’t quite worked up the nerve to add an eSATA drive to my S3 but I am getting closer and closer to making a move. When and where did you get your Seagate drive and eSATA cable and, if I may be so bold, what did you pay?

No need to work up any nerve, it's easy! Here's what and where I got it:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202636811&loc=101&pageFormat=20&rs=1&#cReviews
Simple as unplugging your S3, connecting and turning on the new drive, plugging in your S3 holding down the pause button on the remote until the lights go off, then hitting 62, and letting it reboot. That's it. The S3 will recognize the new drive automatically and it's transparent from there. Now I have like 98 hours of HD room and something like 900+ hours of SD room!

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to answer your whole question. It comes with the eSATA cable you need. And it's an external drive. So you don't need to mess with any enclosures. Just plug and play!

No need to work up any nerve, it's easy! Here's what and where I got it:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202636811&loc=101&pageFormat=20&rs=1&#cReviews
Simple as unplugging your S3, connecting and turning on the new drive, plugging in your S3 holding down the pause button on the remote until the lights go off, then hitting 62, and letting it reboot. That's it. The S3 will recognize the new drive automatically and it's transparent from there. Now I have like 98 hours of HD room and something like 900+ hours of SD room!

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to answer your whole question. It comes with the eSATA cable you need. And it's an external drive. So you don't need to mess with any enclosures. Just plug and play!

Yup. Just make sure you use an eSATA II cable, and not just any old eSATA cable. Apparently, they're physically different enough where the "bad" cables don't seat properly and lead to failure to activate or flaky behavior.

No need to work up any nerve, it's easy! Here's what and where I got it:
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=202636811&loc=101&pageFormat=20&rs=1&#cReviews
Simple as unplugging your S3, connecting and turning on the new drive, plugging in your S3 holding down the pause button on the remote until the lights go off, then hitting 62, and letting it reboot. That's it. The S3 will recognize the new drive automatically and it's transparent from there. Now I have like 98 hours of HD room and something like 900+ hours of SD room!

Edit: Sorry, I forgot to answer your whole question. It comes with the eSATA cable you need. And it's an external drive. So you don't need to mess with any enclosures. Just plug and play!
It really is very simple, but be aware, that drive you've linked to does not power back up after a power loss, it has what I guess is called a "soft" button for power. I ended up going with an Antec MX-1 case which has a hard on/off button and it powers back up after a power loss.

It really is very simple, but be aware, that drive you've linked to does not power back up after a power loss, it has what I guess is called a "soft" button for power. I ended up going with an Antec MX-1 case which has a hard on/off button and it powers back up after a power loss.
Thanks! That's helpful to know. My cable boxes in other rooms don't power back up, so I'll remember to double check this drive if we have an outage.

I just installed a Seagate DB35 500GB using the Antec MX-1 enclosure. Newegg and excaliberpc both have the enclosure but only excaliberpc has the DB35 drives.

Enclosure: http://www.excaliberpc.com/Antec_Veris_Media_MX-1_Actively/MX-1/partinfo-id-575347.html

500GB DB35: http://www.excaliberpc.com/Seagate_DB35_7200.3_Hard_drive/ST3500830SCE/partinfo-id-574241.html

750GB DB35: http://www.excaliberpc.com/Seagate_DB35_7200.3_Hard_drive/ST3750840SCE/partinfo-id-574243.html

Process was painless.

would someone provide a link for the 30 second skip for the S3?
Here's the full list.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=122090

Suggest programming the ones you use often into macro on remote.

what about this current deal??:

Western Digital 'My Book' 500GB eSATA @Best Buy - $139.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8188052&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat107700050005&id=1164155963918)

if you have one of those 10% coupons for this weekend, it will be that much cheaper. Any downside to something like this?

what about this current deal??:

Western Digital 'My Book' 500GB eSATA @Best Buy - $139.99 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8188052&type=product&productCategoryId=pcmcat107700050005&id=1164155963918)

if you have one of those 10% coupons for this weekend, it will be that much cheaper. Any downside to something like this?

I didn't see anything about an eSATA cable, only USB. If it doesn't take an eSATAII cable, then you would have to buy an adapter eSATAII to USB. I'd lookd for something else.

Thanks to those of you who provided the info I had asked for concerning adding an eSATA drive. I would not have to worry about whether any drive I bought powered back on automatically after a power outage as I have a battery backup for my S3 and HDTV, which I would also be able to use for an eSATA drive should I add one.

I bought a battery backup because my 2003 model RCA DLP HDTV automatically powers on when power is restored after a power outage. That’s not good if the TV is off and you are not home when the power fails and then is restored. I was able to find a perfectly satisfactory battery backup unit at CompUSA for $40. I have liked it so well I bought a second one for my desktop computer, network printer, and cable modem yesterday. This time it was on sale for $35. Highly recommended. These units will not supply power via their batteries for very long but 99% of power failures don’t last longer than a few minutes anyway.

Highly recommended. These units will not supply power via their batteries for very long but 99% of power failures don’t last longer than a few minutes anyway.

Maybe where you live that is true, but where I live when the power goes it could be minutes or days before it's restored. So I to use UPS on all my electrical equipment but the one that does my entertainment center is a good one and it's not cheap. I have a gas powered generator and when that clicks on some of my UPS's can't decide to power down or power on so they click on and off. Eventually that brings the battery down and I have to move these units to different power outlets. But the one where my TiVo is can be "adjusted" so that it can accept a bit of a power change so there is no need to unplug anything and everything eSATA, TV, etc just keeps working like nothing is happening.

Mine's an APC, as are all my UPS but this is the one I use for my entertainment center. http://www.apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BX1500

Although power outages in my neighborhood are not infrequent, they rarely last long. I seem to have few if any low voltage conditions, at least brownouts are a rare phenomenon. Thus, when I found a cheap battery backup unit I bought it. It’s been perfect so far, which is why I bought a second one for my computer, printer, and cable modem.

My bottom line is this: if you can afford an S3 and won’t be bothered by the economic irrationality of buying one, do it. If you are anything like me, you will be glad you did.

I certainly understand your point of view, but let me offer a different point of view (for those who are on the fence about the S3). Starting 5/27, TIVO S3 is offering a $200 rebate. If you shop around on the internet, this means you can get an S3 for $400. If you buy 3 years of service upfront for $299, that averages $8.31/month for the service. If your S3 lasts for six years (very possible), and you get another 3 years for $299, that means over six years you have paid about $1000. That works out to $13.89/month.

But wait! If you have been renting a cable DVR, you won't need that anymore. I was paying $11/month for that. Now, my cable co. charges me $1.50/month for each of my CableCards for the S3, but my net savings from not having the cable DVR is $8/month.

So, combine those two: $13.89 minus $8.00 = $5.89/month.

Roughly $6/month for HD TIVO goodness!

I have a question about TiVo's Multi-Service Discount.

If I have already prepaid 3 years worth of subscription when I purchased the original S3, how much more per month will the second S3 be?

I have a question about TiVo's Multi-Service Discount.

If I have already prepaid 3 years worth of subscription when I purchased the original S3, how much more per month will the second S3 be?
The first unit would serve as your "qualifying" unit.

The additional unit would be $6 less than whatever n-year commitment you chose. If you chose 3yr monthly commitment, it would be $12.95 - $6 = $6.95/mo

For those who missed it, the Tivo Series3 eSATA Drive Expansion FAQ can be found back on page 56 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10478746&&#post10478746) or at TivoCommunity (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=350510).

The first unit would serve as your "qualifying" unit.

The additional unit would be $6 less than whatever n-year commitment you chose. If you chose 3yr monthly commitment, it would be $12.95 - $6 = $6.95/mo
Okay, that's seems reasonable, now if I can get the extra 2 cards without having to pay an Additional Outlet fee(since I don't have any digital subscriptions) it would be a pretty good deal.

So, combine those two: $13.89 minus $8.00 = $5.89/month. Roughly $6/month for HD TIVO goodness!You mean $6 extra. I've always said that at $400 the S3 is worth it, but your calculations are making me think that it needs to be $350 instead. The reason is that your computations are off-target in a few ways.

First of all, over six years, it is very possible that you'll experience a serious problem with the device. After the 90 day warranty period, some problems could cost hundreds of dollars to fix and others could render the device totally useless. Indeed, you may not have a problem, so assigning a cost to the potential is complicated... I'd figure $150 is a good guess. So add that to your total cost.

Also, six years is a bit too long to figure. I have had three TiVos (four including the Series 3 that I sent back because TiVo wouldn't help me get Comcast to get it working). I put my Series 1 into service in 2001. It became nothing more than a back-up after I put my first Series 2 into service in November 2003. By June 2006 even my first Series 2 became a backup for Comcast's Motorola DVR. So these things seem to have a significant-use lifespan of about two or three years.

So let's do your math again:

$406 - purchase price after rebate
$299 - service for three years
$79 - extended warranty (better than paying $150 for repairs)
$108 - CableCard rental for three years
-------
$892

minus $11 per month for the cable company DVR
= $13.78 extra per month

Gosh -- not sure even TiVo is worth that, especially given how much hassle people STILL have getting CableCards to work with it.