Thanks Keenan. That's exactly what I was looking for! With Comcast, did you just ask them for CableCards and they came to your house to install them, or did you have to fight with them to get the CableCards without a digital package?
IIRC, I had Standard Cable plus Digital Classic and their DVR. When I got the S3 up and running with the CCs - when I ordered the CCs they were fully aware they were for a S3 - I then took the Comcast DVR back and un-subscribed from Expanded Basic and Digital Classic. I got lucky with a good CSR and between us we got the billing squared away - Limited Basic + $1.50 total for both CCs.

It may be a little different from what you're trying to do, but the end result will be the same, you can have just Limited Basic and the CCs and get the local HD and correct channel mapping.

P.S. They came to the house to install, but all the tech did was talk to the mothership repeating the numbers I gave him - I did the install myself.

P.S. They came to the house to install, but all the tech did was talk to the mothership repeating the numbers I gave him - I did the install myself.

Any more information on where these numbers and instructions were gleaned from would be of great help.

Boy, I'd like to know where that is. We're now paying nearly $20/mo for basic.

Ouch. I'm in Colorado with Comcast. Sounds like when everything's done, the monthly cost will be around $30 for a dual-tuner HD-DVR for local channels. It's a big step up from the cost of my Sony HDD, but at least I get dual tuners, full Tivo functionality, and I don't have to worry about the analog shutoff (or other Sony idiosyncrasies).

Dumb question probably answered on page 1 - the S3 does not support On Demand correct? is it the cable card that does not support or the S3?
FREAK!

Dumb question probably answered on page 1 - the S3 does not support On Demand correct? is it the cable card that does not support or the S3?
FREAK!

Actually it's the hardware of the S3 that doesn't support On Demand. Also the same reason that the S3 cannot support SDV.

However there is talk that the cable companies may try to work with TiVo to find a work around for this. It's been suggested that possibly sending a signal using a wireless network and the internet may be a way to make it work.

IIRC, I had Standard Cable plus Digital Classic and their DVR. When I got the S3 up and running with the CCs - when I ordered the CCs they were fully aware they were for a S3 - I then took the Comcast DVR back and un-subscribed from Expanded Basic and Digital Classic. I got lucky with a good CSR and between us we got the billing squared away - Limited Basic + $1.50 total for both CCs.



That's why I recommended he talk to the cable company. I know it will work because during the fiasco I had last Sunday and Monday (see Cleveland local thread) with TW I actually had all HD channels and no digital channels. So it's absolutely possible, it just depends on whether or not the cable company will allow it. And that varies even within cable companies. :eek:

Any more information on where these numbers and instructions were gleaned from would be of great help.



Ouch. I'm in Colorado with Comcast. Sounds like when everything's done, the monthly cost will be around $30 for a dual-tuner HD-DVR for local channels. It's a big step up from the cost of my Sony HDD, but at least I get dual tuners, full Tivo functionality, and I don't have to worry about the analog shutoff (or other Sony idiosyncrasies).
The numbers are on the CC install menu, the host number, etc. There's an instruction sheet that comes with the S3 that has the details.

That's why I recommended he talk to the cable company. I know it will work because during the fiasco I had last Sunday and Monday (see Cleveland local thread) with TW I actually had all HD channels and no digital channels. So it's absolutely possible, it just depends on whether or not the cable company will allow it. And that varies even within cable companies. :eek:
I'm pretty sure the cablecos have to provide CCs when asked for regardless of subscription level. If they're to be used on another device, like a TV, that's in addition to the primary outlet(say a cable STB) then you'll get charged an additional outlet fee, but if all you have is the S3, both cards are for the one device so there should not be any additional outlet fee. That's the way Comcast in the SF bay area works anyhow.

This is a common enough failure that it warrants an immediate return and replacement. Good thing you found it early enough for a quick return. - Many people blame the cablecards (if used), when it's really the tuner going out. When that happens, the tuner isn't able to get and pass the cable authorization data to the card, so they keep switching cards until the tuner "resets" enough to pass some data, but then they lose it again at some later time when trying to update the cards. A good working tuner is required to get get the authorization and setup data, but as the tuner starts to fail, it either records nothing, cuts programs short, or shows a gray screen.

vegggas

I purchased an S3 last week and after the Comcast weekend contractor was there for over 4 hours we ended up with 1 working cablecard and the other with the "waitng for EMMs" powerkey status.

Comcast is coming back tonight to replace the second cablecard. Is there a way I can tell if the problem is the cablecard or if the problem is the second tuner of the Tivo?

Thanks

I purchased an S3 last week and after the Comcast weekend contractor was there for over 4 hours we ended up with 1 working cablecard and the other with the "waitng for EMMs" powerkey status.

Comcast is coming back tonight to replace the second cablecard. Is there a way I can tell if the problem is the cablecard or if the problem is the second tuner of the Tivo?

Thanks


More then likely the problem is one of two. Either the person he read the numbers to over the phone made an error (it happens a great deal) or the cable cards he used are two different versions. In anycase I would mention to him to please ask the person he reads the numbers to over the phone to repeat them back to him. He can't be certain that the other person is doing their job unless this happens.

I purchased an S3 last week and after the Comcast weekend contractor was there for over 4 hours we ended up with 1 working cablecard and the other with the "waitng for EMMs" powerkey status.

Comcast is coming back tonight to replace the second cablecard. Is there a way I can tell if the problem is the cablecard or if the problem is the second tuner of the Tivo?

Thanks

Call Comcast tech support and tell them one cablecard is not working. They should be able to activate it (assuming the numbers were keyed correctly). I had a similar problem with a cablecard activation.

Are Tivo users going to be able to record HBO and Cinemax in the near future when they switch over to Mpeg4?
Will Tivo have to rely on cable companies to re-encode the main channel to Mpeg2 to be able to view and record that channel, or can Tivo natively handle Mpeg4 from HBO and Cinemax?
Just curious.

vegggas

Are Tivo users going to be able to record HBO and Cinemax in the near future when they switch over to Mpeg4?
Will Tivo have to rely on cable companies to re-encode the main channel to Mpeg2 to be able to view and record that channel, or can Tivo natively handle Mpeg4 from HBO and Cinemax?
Just curious.

vegggas

I thought HBO was going MPEG-4 to deliver to the head-ends, where it would be re-encoded to MPEG-2 for delivery out to the cable subs ?

In any event, the S3 is MPEG-4 capable.

From the FAQ's at the TiVo Forum, Series 3:

Does the S3 support new video formats?
The decoder used in the S3 supports MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC/H.264, and VC-1/WMV9. However, at this time there is not yet a way to load video on the S3, and both ATSC and digital cable are MPEG-2.

If I read the above FAQ statement correctly, it says that it can do Mpeg4. It seems a bit vague about supporting mpeg4 over the coax input (since no mpeg4 over coax existed when the FAQ was written) compared to via ethernet, but seems assured that it should work if the signals were available.

vegggas

If I read the above FAQ statement correctly, it says that it can do Mpeg4. It seems a bit vague about supporting mpeg4 over the coax input (since no mpeg4 over coax existed when the FAQ was written) compared to via ethernet, but seems assured that it should work if the signals were available.

vegggas

Does the transport method even make a difference? Digital is digital...it's all 1's and 0's as far as the pipe is concerned. It's what happens to those 1's and 0's in the end is what matters. Right?

If I read the above FAQ statement correctly, it says that it can do Mpeg4. It seems a bit vague about supporting mpeg4 over the coax input (since no mpeg4 over coax existed when the FAQ was written) compared to via ethernet, but seems assured that it should work if the signals were available.

vegggas


Bottom line is it will work just fine. :)

After two months with Time Warner's Motoral DVR,
I came running back to Tivo.

I had the cable cards installed yesterday, and despite TW's
usual horrible customer service/missed appointments/hours of complaining,
my Tivo is finally up and running.

All is good so far, but I notice the search function, when spelling out show titles, is extremely slow. It takes long pauses after each letter is entered, as well as long wait times when scrolling the titles on the right.

Is this the normal operation for search now, or am I experiencing a slow down while Tivo
downloads and digests the program guide data for the first time?

thanks,

FCD

After two months with Time Warner's Motoral DVR,
I came running back to Tivo.

I had the cable cards installed yesterday, and despite TW's
usual horrible customer service/missed appointments/hours of complaining,
my Tivo is finally up and running.

All is good so far, but I notice the search function, when spelling out show titles, is extremely slow. It takes long pauses after each letter is entered, as well as long wait times when scrolling the titles on the right.

Is this the normal operation for search now, or am I experiencing a slow down while Tivo
downloads and digests the program guide data for the first time?

thanks,

FCD

It picks up quite a bit by the time you get version 8.3. If you're not running 8.3 yet, it may be a bit slow.

thanks, hook.

I'm not sure what version I'm running, but if I'm not at 8.3 is it an easy procedure
to upgrade?


FCD

You should be automatically upgraded within several days. It only took me two days to receive the upgrade.

thanks, hook.

I'm not sure what version I'm running, but if I'm not at 8.3 is it an easy procedure
to upgrade?

FCD

They should be through the "gradual roll-out" phase of the 8.3 distribution, so you should be able to force a network connection and receive the update. The TiVo will "phone home" and should pull down the 8.3 update automatically. When that's done, the S3 will reboot and be running the new software.

FYI, the "search by title" definitely became more responsive in the 8.3 version. However, should you choose to modify the search, such as choosing "HD" before entering the title, the search speed is still quite slow.

As far as I could tell, the 8.3 update did not come down with any of the first three or four connections I made to the TiVo service manually. I would hope that update distributions are always sensitive to the current load of their servers, and deferred to overnight when servers are otherwise busy. Otherwise, TCO could suffer.

As far as I could tell, the 8.3 update did not come down with any of the first three or four connections I made to the TiVo service manually. I would hope that update distributions are always sensitive to the current load of their servers, and deferred to overnight when servers are otherwise busy. Otherwise, TCO could suffer.

No they arn't. Most of my updates I did by "forcing" the update by have the S3 call in. Then I did the reboot myself for the install.

Fred, if you want to see what version you are using go to TiVo Central/Messages & Settings/System Information. When you get there you can scroll down and see what system you are using and what happened during your last call in. If it says "successful" then there is no update pending. If it says "pending" then you can reboot your S3 and it will install the next update (also located in "Messages and Settings/Settings.) You can also have your S3 call in to see if an update is available. Usually if you are not up to date it will install until you are.

Perhaps it has changed, since I didn't have that happen for me last week.

I got a new S3 2 weeks ago and it download/installed 8.3 within a day.

I got a new S3 2 weeks ago and it download/installed 8.3 within a day.Same here. Mine's connected by ethernet. Connection setup takes far longer than any actual downloads through my cable modem. Filtering searches for HD programs does take unnaturally long, but given what it's doing, it's understandable. They could pre-index for HD programs in the background though.

- Mike

The upgrade came through last night,
and the search function is definitely faster.

Although I did notice that they've added the option to play a commericial when you delete a program,which is only a minor annoyance.

I'm definitely glad to be back with the Tivo interface after spending time with TW's Motorola box, although I appreciated that the Moto box retained picture and sound when searching, or accessing menus.

FCD

The upgrade came through last night,
and the search function is definitely faster.

Although I did notice that they've added the option to play a commericial when you delete a program,which is only a minor annoyance.

I'm definitely glad to be back with the Tivo interface after spending time with TW's Motorola box, although I appreciated that the Moto box retained picture and sound when searching, or accessing menus.

FCD

Those "commercials" arn't there all the time. They pop up for a bit then go away. :)

The upgrade came through last nightSo it took two days; that was my experience as well.

Keep in mind that when you first set up the TiVo it's doing a lot of background indexing for 8-12 hours, which will make it seem slow when you're setting up your first season passes and whatnot.

I set up a wish list early this year when I purchased MLB Extra Innings. I had the wish list as Sports/Baseball, & Dodgers. Then I look at the wish list, see what games I want to record and select.

This week however the Dodgers are playing the Atlanta Braves. So my wish list showed 2 of the games on TBS and 2 on MLB Extra Inniings. I selected accordingly but then decided to double check with the internet.

From In Demands site it showed that the game on Wednesday is also being shown on MLB. Now no offense to Atlanta's broadcast team but if I have a choice between them and Vin Scully, I'm taking Scully and a digital picture over anolog. But the wish list didn't even offer me a choice on this.

I would have thought the wish list should have shown both listings allowing me to make a choice. Seems to me that the TiVo wish list still needs some improvement.

I set up a wish list early this year when I purchased MLB Extra Innings. I had the wish list as Sports/Baseball, & Dodgers. Then I look at the wish list, see what games I want to record and select.

This week however the Dodgers are playing the Atlanta Braves. So my wish list showed 2 of the games on TBS and 2 on MLB Extra Inniings. I selected accordingly but then decided to double check with the internet.

From In Demands site it showed that the game on Wednesday is also being shown on MLB. Now no offense to Atlanta's broadcast team but if I have a choice between them and Vin Scully, I'm taking Scully and a digital picture over anolog. But the wish list didn't even offer me a choice on this.

I would have thought the wish list should have shown both listings allowing me to make a choice. Seems to me that the TiVo wish list still needs some improvement.

Yeah, that's one of the slight quirks of using a WishList. If a WishList matches a program which is being shown on multiple channels, it'll show/record the one on the lowest channel number. What channel the WishList ends up recording is almost at the mercy of your cable provider, and how they choose to number their channels.

I hit this in a different fashion. An ARWL I had set up to record a show on a local broadcast channel was always picking the SD version of the program, rather than the HD version of the program. It got to be frustrating, so I did some searching on TCF and found the answer (WishLists, given identical program info, prefer low channel numbers). The answer was to remove the SD version of the local broadcast channels from my channel list, since the HD versions made those channels completely redundant. (BTW, this is no longer an issue since 8.3 was rolled out and you can now specify "HD" as a WishList parameter.)

I hit this in a different fashion. An ARWL I had set up to record a show on a local broadcast channel was always picking the SD version of the program, rather than the HD version of the program. It got to be frustrating, so I did some searching on TCF and found the answer (WishLists, given identical program info, prefer low channel numbers). The answer was to remove the SD version of the local broadcast channels from my channel list, since the HD versions made those channels completely redundant. (BTW, this is no longer an issue since 8.3 was rolled out and you can now specify "HD" as a WishList parameter.)

I'm happy of course that they added the HD category, but before they added that it wasn't something you couldn't easily get around on. For example, you set up Heroes and it shows it available on your SD station. You would click "view other episodes of this program" and then you would see it in HD as well.

Not so with the MLB thing. You click "view other episodes" and it shows you everything having to do with MLB. Not an easy work around like the HD thing was.

It doesn't happen very often, and it wasn't that hard for me to get the right channel recorded. I just felt it can be done a bit better. I guess I'll live with it. :)

Yeah, that's one of the slight quirks of using a WishList. If a WishList matches a program which is being shown on multiple channels, it'll show/record the one on the lowest channel number.

The answer was to remove the SD version of the local broadcast channels from my channel list, since the HD versions made those channels completely redundant. (BTW, this is no longer an issue since 8.3 was rolled out and you can now specify "HD" as a WishList parameter.)

ahh, thanks for clarifying on this. I've had some situations where I've had the CBS SD channel version of Letterman record as a result of a Wishlist item. Being that I receive my CBS HD via OTA, there are times when this station doesn't come in too well, so I've kept my analog version of CBS in my channel list. Not being able to figure out how to eliminate the default "record to lowest # channel (which is my SD CBS channel)", I ended up deleting the SD/analog CBS channel from my channel list when I really didn't want to have to resort to that.

I cannot find a way to configure for "HD" channel recording. There is a 'Category Only' option wishlist, which will allow you to specify for "HD", as in a general HD programming request, but as far as I have been able to figure, you cannot add the "HD" specification to any other type of wishlist.

If so, that's pretty much useless. I must be missing something, as I cannot fathom how creating an all-encompassing "HD" wishlist does anyone any good at all (i.e., here are your dozens upon dozens upon dozens of upcoming HD programs! gee thanks, Tivo. NOT!).

In other words, can I add an "HD" requirement to one of my actor/keyword/title wishlists? Doesn't seem like there is a way to accomplish this.

Here's an example: You want to add a show that currently isn't playing at all, let's say "Heroes". But you want it recorded in HD, not SD. So you set up your wish list by category, HD, then just "Heroes."

Or suppose you want football but only in HD. You set up a wishlist first HD, then Sports, then Football. You will then get a list of all football games available in HD.

Does that help?

Hmm. Let me try it out and see if this will work for the way I do things, i.e., most of my wishlists are for specific actors or recording artists who I want to record, should they pop up on any talk shows and such. My initial reading of the method you've described here seems to suggest that it will work this way, however, assuming that it does work, then I've got the daunting task of re-doing about 60 wishlists! :eek:

Hmm. Let me try it out and see if this will work for the way I do things, i.e., most of my wishlists are for specific actors or recording artists who I want to record, should they pop up on any talk shows and such. My initial reading of the method you've described here seems to suggest that it will work this way, however, assuming that it does work, then I've got the daunting task of re-doing about 60 wishlists! :eek:


Holy Wishlists! Well, it will keep you out of trouble for a bit. :)
By the way - major kudos on your sig. It would suite me perfectly. :D

Tivo called me today to follow up on Comcast cablecard problems I had reported: I longer receive ch 212 YES, all other channels work OK

Tivo says they have 200-300 similar Comcast complaints and they are trying to get Comcast to fix the issue

it was nice they called : hope it helps

Here's an example: You want to add a show that currently isn't playing at all, let's say "Heroes". But you want it recorded in HD, not SD. So you set up your wish list by category, HD, then just "Heroes."

Or suppose you want football but only in HD. You set up a wishlist first HD, then Sports, then Football. You will then get a list of all football games available in HD.

Does that help?

After playing around in the Wishlists setup, the latter is doable, though not really specific enough for my purposes. The former cannot be done at all. Once you choose 'category only wishlist', you can only add a subcategory after the main category ("HD", in this case). There is no way to enter a specific title, like "Heroes".

Holy Wishlists! Well, it will keep you out of trouble for a bit. :)
By the way - major kudos on your sig. It would suite me perfectly. :D

heh, thanks. I have many delusions of self-regarding splendor. yes, I kinda get that vibe about you too. ;)

btw, I counted. it's actually 78 wishlists. :o

After playing around in the Wishlists setup, the latter is doable, though not really specific enough for my purposes. The former cannot be done at all. Once you choose 'category only wishlist', you can only add a subcategory after the main category ("HD", in this case). There is no way to enter a specific title, like "Heroes".


OK, but you can still do it with wishlist by or actor then HD then whatever subcategories you want. I just double checked to see how mine were set up.

Ummm...I've got like 4 wishlists. :p

The bulk of my wishlists are for musicians, most of whom aren't so very popular that they would trigger bunches of weekly Tivo recordings. Maybe a couple a week, if that. It's just great to know that they'll be recorded should they ever "pop up" somewhere around the television dial, without me having to manually check listings on a regular basis (my old, haphazard method of doing things).

Yes, it's true that you can include "HD" as a required subcategory, however, I'm afraid any non-HD appearance will be passed over. If so, then that would require a second wishlist which doesn't specify "HD", to ensure that any SD-only channel appearances get recorded. And with my number of wishlists, well, you do the math. :D

I will be moving to a new location where TWC is available. I am considering purchasing an S3.

I have been using the DTV HR10-250 for the past 3 years, so I am familiar with the TIVO interface and I have been very happy with it.

At my new location, I will have all of the networks available via digital OTA with an indoor antenna which is what I have currently. There are only about 4 or 5 cable channels that I watch regularly, otherwise, I really don't need a 200 channel lineup.

I am considering just ordering the expanded basic cable from TWC for use with the S3. I have a few questions.

Should I order two cable cards from TWC when I activate the expanded basic cable, or should I use the S3 without the cards? With analog basic cable, is there any benefit to using the cards?

Also, is there a significant difference in picture quality between analog cable and digital cable?

I don't care about the HD cable channels, as I can get all of the HD that I want via OTA.

I want the reduced cost of the analog cable, but not at the expense of significant picture quality.

Thanks for the help.

Pilot

The cards are going to make the TiVo behave like a TiVo, guide related options like Season Passes, Wishlists, etc..

I will be moving to a new location where TWC is available. I am considering purchasing an S3.

I have been using the DTV HR10-250 for the past 3 years, so I am familiar with the TIVO interface and I have been very happy with it.

At my new location, I will have all of the networks available via digital OTA with an indoor antenna which is what I have currently. There are only about 4 or 5 cable channels that I watch regularly, otherwise, I really don't need a 200 channel lineup.

I am considering just ordering the expanded basic cable from TWC for use with the S3. I have a few questions.

Should I order two cable cards from TWC when I activate the expanded basic cable, or should I use the S3 without the cards? With analog basic cable, is there any benefit to using the cards?

Also, is there a significant difference in picture quality between analog cable and digital cable?

I don't care about the HD cable channels, as I can get all of the HD that I want via OTA.

I want the reduced cost of the analog cable, but not at the expense of significant picture quality.

Thanks for the help.

PilotNo analog reception is possible after 2/2009, another thing to consider is the S3 w/one-way cablecards cannot record any channel that Time Warner moves over to SDV. The migration of most of Time Warner's programming onto SDV will occur sooner than later.

No analog reception is possible after 2/2009, another thing to consider is the S3 w/one-way cablecards cannot record any channel that Time Warner moves over to SDV. The migration of most of Time Warner's programming onto SDV will occur sooner than later.No analog over-the-air broadcasting is possible after that date. I'm fairly certain that the FCC is counting on the cable providers to continue analog transmission on their systems for a while thereafter; if they don't, hundreds of millions of televisions will spontaneously become useless.

Heck, the cable providers will probably pick up a bunch of core-basic customers who are currently satisfied with analog OTA reception.

I'm fairly certain that the FCC is counting on the cable providers to continue analog transmission on their systems for a while thereafter; if they don't, hundreds of millions of televisions will spontaneously become useless.Last Friday night, the FCC made it very clear which way they are heading: They provided substantial incentives to MSOs to switch from analog and analog/digital hybrid systems to all-digital systems.

Proposals floated earlier this year regarding requiring cable systems to continue providing analog service were unsuccessful.

Get used to the idea: NTSC is an endangered species.

If NTSC is endangered, what do you call the digital broadcast format for SD channels on cable? Will it just be called 480i? Not all will be going HD, at least not for a while.

SD channels on all-digital cable are transmitted via digital QAM.

Last Friday night, the FCC made it very clear which way they are heading: They provided substantial incentives to MSOs to switch from analog and analog/digital hybrid systems to all-digital systems.Do you have a pointer to some documentation of this?

It's expected that they will go to all-digital systems eventually, but the assertion was that they would do it by the 2009 over-the-air analog broadcast cut-off which isn't true. One of the prime enablers of the digital transition is that only about 10% of all television watching households in this country receive it over-the-air. Over 60% get it from cable and 20-some-odd percent get it from satellite. (Cable's share is likely to erode with broadband services from the telcos like Verizon's FiOS and AT&T's U-Verse).

Do you have a pointer to some documentation of this?

It's expected that they will go to all-digital systems eventually, but the assertion was that they would do it by the 2009 over-the-air analog broadcast cut-off which isn't true. One of the prime enablers of the digital transition is that only about 10% of all television watching households in this country receive it over-the-air. Over 60% get it from cable and 20-some-odd percent get it from satellite. (Cable's share is likely to erode with broadband services from the telcos like Verizon's FiOS and AT&T's U-Verse).


My understanding was that all OTA is digital and cable can continue to broadcast in analog.

Many people do not have cable boxes and only use basic cable. They do not want a digital box or the cost associated with it.

While it is true that some areas in the country have gone to all digital we don't know for sure if that will happen here. Matter of fact prior TW (Adelphia) was clearly experimenting with digital channels in the 900's for all of the 2-85 channels. You could see these channels in the channel guide, although they were not available. They then took it down so we couldn't see what was going on but that doesn't mean they haven't continued testing. I think they will broadcast on digital for these channels for those of us who have a digital box and analog for those who don't.

Do you have a pointer to some documentation of this?Yup... here you go: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6456714.html?industryid=47194

It's expected that they will go to all-digital systems eventually, but the assertion was that they would do it by the 2009 over-the-air analog broadcast cut-off which isn't true.The deadline imposed by the FCC to qualify for the offered waiver is December 31, 2009. Cable systems, including Verizon FIOS, have until then to go all-digital.

The conditions of these waivers, combined with the fact that a proposal earlier this year to require cable systems to retain analog service beyond 2009 died on the vine, indicates the path the FCC apparently plans to take in this regard.

Yup... here you go: http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6456714.html?industryid=47194




I hate it when he's right. ;)

Well, bye bye analog on cable. That pretty well sums it up.

Good article, it also mentions that it wants cable operators to find a way to make two way communication possible for vendors who have only one way boxes. Thanks bicker1.

My pleasure.

I hate it when he's right. ;)Which he normally is. :)

I have to shake my head with dis-belief when I read some of these arguments:

"The FCC also swatted down the NCTA’s assertion that CableCARD-based set-tops would only end up costing consumers more, and that the cable industry should be allowed to wait until less-expensive downloadable security technologies are commercially available.

“We do not believe … that the NCTA should be able to shield itself from the clear directives in the commission’s rules …by continuing to assert that a better approach is on the ever-expanding horizon"

I assume that as long as the FCC allows the Cable MSOs to prolong the inevitable, which is the conversion to an all digital Open Cable environment; Time Warner, Comcast, etc., will be glad to continue their status quo & rent us the ~$20 per month SA8300 DVR To Infinity... and Beyond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_Lightyear).

I assume that as long as the FCC allows the Cable MSOs to prolong the inevitable, which is the conversion to an all digital Open Cable environment; Time Warner, Comcast, etc., will be glad to continue their status quo & rent us the ~$20 per month SA8300 DVR To Infinity... and Beyond (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzz_Lightyear).
I have a TiVo S3 and love it. Nevertheless, the SA 8300HD DVRs, which Cox OKC rents out for less that ten bucks a month, not twenty, make vastly more economic sense than does buying a very expensive S3 and subscribing to the equally expensive TiVo service.

The 8300HD isn’t very sophisticated but it works and it’s cheap. In fact, if the deal TiVo and Cox have made to put TiVo software on Cox’s rental boxes had been further advanced than it is, buying an S3 instead of renting a Cox box would have made even less sense than it does now. The S3 is a very expensive niche product which appeals to few other than those of us who have owned a TiVo in the past, are hard core HT buffs, and are therefore willing to pay much, much more than it would have cost to rent a cable company owned HD DVR

I haven’t been crazy about the cable companies’ foot dragging on getting CableCARD technology rolled out, either, but the worst seems to be over. For example, Cox OKC has already rolled out an HD CableCARD box and I would guess that it won’t be long before they introduce a CableCARD enabled HD DVR. I am also anxiously looking forward to the day when TiVo software is available on Cox OKC’s DVRs but, alas, that day seems still to be a long way off.

I don’t seen any conspiracy on the part of cable companies. Instead, I see them trying to make a profit by reacting to the uneven spurts of growth and shifting competitive situations that occur in any business that relies on cutting edge, constantly evolving technology. Government incursion designed to maintain a level playing field in the marketplace just adds to that complexity.

I have a TiVo S3 and love it. Nevertheless, the SA 8300HD DVRs, which Cox OKC rents out for less that ten bucks a month, not twenty, make vastly more economic sense than does buying a very expensive S3 and subscribing to the equally expensive TiVo service.

The 8300HD isn’t very sophisticated but it works and it’s cheap. In fact, if the deal TiVo and Cox have made to put TiVo software on Cox’s rental boxes had been further advanced than it is, buying an S3 instead of renting a Cox box would have made even less sense than it does now. The S3 is a very expensive niche product which appeals to few other than those of us who have owned a TiVo in the past, are hard core HT buffs, and are therefore willing to pay much, much more than it would have cost to rent a cable company owned HD DVR

I haven’t been crazy about the cable companies’ foot dragging on getting CableCARD technology rolled out, either, but the worst seems to be over. For example, Cox OKC has already rolled out an HD CableCARD box and I would guess that it won’t be long before they introduce a CableCARD enabled HD DVR. I am also anxiously looking forward to the day when TiVo software is available on Cox OKC’s DVRs but, alas, that day seems still to be a long way off.

I don’t seen any conspiracy on the part of cable companies. Instead, I see them trying to make a profit by reacting to the uneven spurts of growth and shifting competitive situations that occur in any business that relies on cutting edge, constantly evolving technology. Government incursion designed to maintain a level playing field in the marketplace just adds to that complexity.

I think the fact that availability in my area for HD equipment also points to cable companies coming around to the idea of making cable card boxes available. I think there is a supply and demand problem going on right now. I think that Scientific Atlanta has stopped producing the SA 8300 and othe non cable card boxes but they haven't quite been able to meet orders for the new DVR's and HD boxes. That is why when people are ordering in my area they are getting a "three week waiting period." :eek:

Now can you imagine you get a brand new HD set, you set up your HD services and you have nothing to work with (unless your set takes cable cards). That would get me looking at the S3 very quickly, specially since the price has come down.

Anybody with even the slightest knowledge of how cable companies work would certainly be nervous about a "3 week waiting period." (4, 5, 6 weeks????)

I haven't heard of anyone getting the SA 9000 yet in my area, matter of fact I'm not sure SA has even released them yet.

What is the "SA 9000"? A Google search for that term and for "Scientific Atlanta 9000" didn't turn up any useful hits. I couldn’t find anything on the Scientific Atlanta Web site, either. So far, Cox OKC's only HD DVR is the 8300HD and they seem to be as plentiful as they are cheap.

What is the "SA 9000"? A Google search for that term and for "Scientific Atlanta 9000" didn't turn up any useful hits. I couldn’t find anything on the Scientific Atlanta Web site, either. So far, Cox OKC's only HD DVR is the 8300HD and they seem to be as plentiful as they are cheap.

My understanding is it's the cable card replacement for the SA 8300, with technology designed for SDV. I've only read about it on other threads.

There is definitely a shortage in my area of HD boxes and DVR's both.

Yes, but it does not use a Cablecard as we know it:

it uses a proprietary card for security purposes from what I was told: my contact told me otherwise it is still basically the same old Comcast DVR

My understanding is it's the cable card replacement for the SA 8300, with technology designed for SDV. I've only read about it on other threads.

There is definitely a shortage in my area of HD boxes and DVR's both.

The cablecard version of the 8300 is the 8300CHD

http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf

Wow, and the choice of software for that was SARA? :rolleyes:

Comes with a larger hard drive but still not as large as the S3.

Wow, and the choice of software for that was SARA? :rolleyes:

Comes with a larger hard drive but still not as large as the S3.

Heh... You'd think that with all of the lead time they had for the July 1, 2007 deadline, they'd do a little bit more to improve on their product. But hey, that would require an effort on their part to provide a product that the end-user would actually want. Instead, they just slapped in a CableCARD slot and called it a day.

The cablecard version of the 8300 is the 8300CHD

http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdfThanks for that link. ;) I wonder if Time Warner needs beta testers? :)

Since I am stuck with an 8300HD on my other HDTV, I would take the 8300CD as a replacement with a smile on my face – especially if the monthly rental remained at less than ten bucks a month. But those of us stuck with 8300HDs running SARA software have learned to have modest expectations. :)

I just got off the phone with my local cable provider and they inform me the 8300HDC should be available next month. :)

I just got off the phone with my local cable provider and they inform me the 8300HDC should be available next month. :)

Your not telling me that you actually believe this, do you?

I can honestly say that anything I've ever heard about future availability from a cable rep has never came true.

I'll also say the same about TiVo reps. Their standard reply is "2-3 weeks". :)

The 8240HDC is the exact same STB as the 8300HD (except no analog tuner), but the decryption is done with a cablecard. In this specific case, a multistream card to decrypt more than one stream at a time for dual tuners and PIP. They both have the same 160GB hard drive, processors, and current OS, etc. They also do VOD, PPV, interactive program guides and interactive programming selections requiring two way services.
I've been the 8240HDC for several weeks and it has performed exactly like my current 8300HD that I've been using for years.
The current "shortage" of HD STB's is for the following reasons.
Cable co's didn't want to purchase new STB's without seperable security (cable card) and get stuck with them on July 1st when they would no longer be able to deploy them as new units. Since nobody wanted the older STB's there is a supply shortage as everyone has a waiting order to be filled and production is ramped up. Add to that the seeming sudden increase in HD subscribers this past quarter and and the estimates for cable co "on hand" quantities were way off.

vegggas

I don't think we can say that the estimates were "way off". From everything I've read, the best/worst I believe we can say is that the forecasts were incredibly close to the mark, though not a "bull's eye". There are some places where it was reported that HD DVRs were unavailable for a few weeks, and there are many places where they were still available right up until the deadline. Also, there are places where the CableCard boxes are already being distributed. When you throw a dart at a dart board from 25,000 feet away, hitting anywhere close to the target is pretty good. And that's pretty-much analogous to the challenge the folks involved in this government-mandated conversion faced. It seems to me, given the realities of manufacturing a new product line, and then coordinating with customers (the cable companies) to get shipments to their service locations, things went pretty-much close to plan, despite stronger demand than one would have reasonably expected.

The current "shortage" of HD STB's is for the following reasons.
Cable co's didn't want to purchase new STB's without seperable security (cable card) and get stuck with them on July 1st when they would no longer be able to deploy them as new units. Since nobody wanted the older STB's there is a supply shortage as everyone has a waiting order to be filled and production is ramped up. Add to that the seeming sudden increase in HD subscribers this past quarter and and the estimates for cable co "on hand" quantities were way off.

vegggasPretty soon the cable companies will run out of spare parts & then it will be bye-bye for the SA8300. :cool:

If the Cable MSOs want to be out of the STB business... then I say "good luck" & let the OPPO Digital Inc.'s of this world fill that void. ;)

Hopefully the next generation of STB DVRs will have more features than the SA8300. How about an HD DVR w/M-Card & IEEE 1394 out to support archiving programs to an HD DVD recorder? :)

I don't think we can say that the estimates were "way off". From everything I've read, the best/worst I believe we can say is that the forecasts were incredibly close to the mark, though not a "bull's eye". There are some places where it was reported that HD DVRs were unavailable for a few weeks, and there are many places where they were still available right up until the deadline. Also, there are places where the CableCard boxes are already being distributed. When you throw a dart at a dart board from 25,000 feet away, hitting anywhere close to the target is pretty good. And that's pretty-much analogous to the challenge the folks involved in this government-mandated conversion faced. It seems to me, given the realities of manufacturing a new product line, and then coordinating with customers (the cable companies) to get shipments to their service locations, things went pretty-much close to plan, despite stronger demand than one would have reasonably expected.

I dpn't believe it's the deadline that has caused the delay, I believe it's exactly like Vegggas says: Cable companies didn't want to make a move on buying new boxes because of the card issue. Also I don't believe that SA has been making the SA 8300 for some time now in order to ramp up for their new boxes. So the "2 to 3 week" estimate I'm hearing in my area may in fact continue for sometime unless SA does a huge shipment of boxes that are cable card ready in the form that the FCC demands. I'm a bit unclear from what Vegggas said whether or not that type of box is now available since the assumption seem to be it was the SA8300HDC and he is talking about a different unit.

Pretty soon the cable companies will run out of spare parts & then it will be bye-bye for the SA8300. :cool:

If the Cable MSOs want to be out of the STB business... then I say "good luck" & let the OPPO Digital Inc.'s of this world fill that void. ;)

Hopefully the next generation of STB DVRs will have more features than the SA8300. How about an HD DVR w/M-Card & IEEE 1394 out to support archiving programs to an HD DVD recorder? :)
My current generation (and last) STB DVR has M-card & IEEE 1394 output that supports archiving to HD recorders such as D-VHS - Now, show me that HD-DVD recorder with 1394 inputs that supports HDCP and we're in business.
The SA MCP-100 multiroom DVR with DVD recorder hit the market a year ago last January, but sales fell flat because of the multi-room feature requirements and the HD content was protected and restricted to that unit. Now that seperable security is mandataory, SA is hoping they can sell them to the direct market in the near future. The MCP-100 is going through a revampng process and will be re-introduced again this year.
http://reviews.cnet.com/Scientific_Atlanta_MCP_100/4660-6474_7-6413252.html?tag=vid
http://www.sciatl.com/customers/Source/7007081.pdf

vegggas

<snip> I'm a bit unclear from what Vegggas said whether or not that type of box is now available since the assumption seem to be it was the SA8300HDC and he is talking about a different unit.
No, the new units are the 8300HDC (which I already have). The 8300 comes in two series in both SD and HD versions. The 8240 versions without an analog tuner (all digital) and the 8300 versions with an analog tuner. The new versions with cable card have a "C" designator at the end, and are the same STB's as before, but with cablecard support wired in. The consumer only sees the "8300" across the front, but the back panel designates the actual model number.

vegggas

Cable companies didn't want to make a move on buying new boxes because of the card issue.I remember hearing Comcast placed a humongous order back in March.

My current generation (and last) STB DVR has M-card & IEEE 1394 output that supports archiving to HD recorders such as D-VHS - Now, show me that HD-DVD recorder with 1394 inputs that supports HDCP and we're in business. Is there any possibility if making the 8300HDCs firewire port talk to a laptop using video capture software?

Is there any possibility if making the 8300HDCs firewire port talk to a laptop using video capture software?

I gotta think that's going to go the same way as the S3 and will be dictated by cablelabs. It's only fair, why whould one box be allowed and another not?

I gotta think that's going to go the same way as the S3 and will be dictated by cablelabs. It's only fair, why whould one box be allowed and another not?I attempted to connect my HP Vista laptop computer to one of the 8300HDC's 1394 interfaces. The OS recognized the STB tuner/sound devices but could not find any drivers. Does anyone have Windows Vista device drivers for an 8300HDC?

I gotta think that's going to go the same way as the S3 and will be dictated by cablelabs. It's only fair, why whould one box be allowed and another not?I'm not sure about this, but I think the cable company provided boxes are required to provide FireWire output. That federal mandated requirement trumps the whole CableLabs stuff.

For those that are intersted in not having an $800 doorstop . . .

The CEA has a proposal before the FCC that would limit the use of SDV until two-way consumer cablecard devices have hit the market.


I quote at length:


"The issue of “switched digital” service deserves particular attention. First, for the sake of simplicity only, the Proposal classifies switched digital content as “interactive,” even though consumers observe no interaction with the cable network when accessing it. Indeed, to clarify, switched digital content might properly be classified as “bi-directional,” but it is plainly not interactive.
Further, as the record shows, cable operators are migrating channels of video programming to a switched digital delivery scheme. See Letter from Steven N. Teplitz, Time Warner Cable, Inc., to Marlene H. Dortch, Secretary, Federal Communications Commission, (May 11, 2006). If cable had not implemented switched digital in a manner that disenfranchised consumers from the programming they had reasonably expected to receive with their UDCPs, we would, of course, support this and all such efforts by cable to increase the efficiency of their networks.

Present unidirectional digital cable ready (“UDCR”) devices, however, cannot receive services with an interactive component, like switched digital, and consumers cannot know upon purchase of a UDCR that some linear programming may become unavailable in the future. If cable operators continue to migrate channels to switched digital, UDCR customers will continue to lose programming or be forced to switch to a leased set-top box, which ultimately will discourage consumers from purchasing devices at retail, as they can no longer expect to receive all the programming that they receive on the day they bring the device home. Switched digital thus directly undermines CE efforts and Commission action. We recognize that it is not possible to fix UDCRs that are already in consumer homes and that it may not be an effective allocation of cable or CE resources to spend significant time addressing the UDCR/switched digital issue. Instead, the Commission should limit MSOs’ ability to migrate programming to switched digital until CE manufacturers have the capability to build and sell devices that can handle switched digital. This is the only fair result for consumers, and will encourage cable to move quickly on two-way."

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publ...CC-07-120A3.pdf

I suggest people write in to the FCC to support the CEA's proposal limiting the adoption of SDV.

Well, unfortunately, that's just a plea, not an Order. It holds slightly more weight than online postings, but not much. :)

Well, unfortunately, that's just a plea, not an Order. It holds slightly more weight than online postings, but not much. :)

Agreed, but what bothers me about dc10forlife's post is this rather ridiculous term that the S3 will become a "800.00 door stop" with SDV.

Let's say SDV does go full blown. All you have to do is take a look at the areas that are in fact using it right now and there are two of them theat I know of, Austin Texas and Rochester New York. Even in those areas there are still plenty of digitatl and HD content available that is not SDV.

Second, if you're still paying 800.00 for the S3 you've got to get your head examined or better yet, pay me 800.00 and I promise I will forward your S3 in about two weeks, no charge for shipping. :rolleyes:

I know I'm a big TiVo Fan Boy but I just don't believe that TiVo is going to leave us out in the cold on this. Even cable companies say they want to work with TiVo to get this working for all of us. I have faith in the end it's all going to work out.

what bothers me about dc10forlife's post is this rather ridiculous term that the S3 will become a "800.00 door stop" with SDV.

Let's say SDV does go full blown. All you have to do is take a look at the areas that are in fact using it right now and there are two of them theat I know of, Austin Texas and Rochester New York. Even in those areas there are still plenty of digitatl and HD content available that is not SDV.What happens if your "favorite" show is on a SDV channel? Will you be happy if you want to, but cannot, record it? The million $ (?) is... why anyone would knowingly buy an S3 that uses one-way CableCARDs?

What happens if your "favorite" show is on a SDV channel? Will you be happy if you want to, but cannot, record it? The million $ (?) is... why anyone would knowingly buy an S3 that uses one-way CableCARDs?

The simple answer to your million $ question is I wanted a DVR that would record HD and actually work. It doesn't matter if HD is on SDV or not if you're pos DVR, in my case the SA 8300, cannot reliably record a show and record it without having major sound drop offs and pixelation that makes a picture unwatchable.

Also in regard to SDV my research indicates in my area it will not happen at the very least until next year. I've got pretty good contacts at TW and they have their hands full of other issues.

Oh and fow what it's worth I saw the main contact I have at TW on "Ask Time Warner" the other day. So I have faith in what she tells me.

And as you know cable has already said they are willing to work with TiVo on a solution. Many feel that this will be done via internet, so if you still live in the stone age with a phone you may be sol.

What happens if your "favorite" show is on a SDV channel? Will you be happy if you want to, but cannot, record it? The million $ (?) is... why anyone would knowingly buy an S3 that uses one-way CableCARDs?

If CableLabs, CEA and TiVo haven't sorted out the unidirectional CableCARD mess by then, I'd have to resort to less scrupulous means to watch that favorite show of mine.

So, despite being dragged kicking and screaming into supporting CableCARDs to provide viable competition in the set top box market, CableLabs still has managed to circumvent the intentions of the CableCARD agreements, and found a way to screw customers into using only cableco provided boxes for fear of not being able to watch the programming that THEY'RE PAYING FOR.

Why did I buy my S3 ? Because it's far better than the dreck the cableco's push on their users, for starters. It just works, without needing to babysit it like the other cableco DVRs I've had in the past.

Aside from that, dc10forlife's post doesn't really bring anything new to the table. The CEA and Cable consortium have been having their back-n-forth pissing match for a few years now. They'll each issue press releases decrying how the other side is out of their minds, and they're the ones who are right. I'm more inclined to side with CEA, since they tend to favor consumer-friendly solutions to the problem, whereas the cablecos tend to favor the profit-friendly solutions.

What happens if your "favorite" show is on a SDV channel? Will you be happy if you want to, but cannot, record it? The million $ (?) is... why anyone would knowingly buy an S3 that uses one-way CableCARDs?

Then I will rent a cableco POS for the SDV channel and keep the S3 for everything else.

If CableLabs, CEA and TiVo haven't sorted out the unidirectional CableCARD mess by then, I'd have to resort to less scrupulous means to watch that favorite show of mine.

...

Aside from that, dc10forlife's post doesn't really bring anything new to the table. The CEA and Cable consortium have been having their back-n-forth pissing match for a few years now. They'll each issue press releases decrying how the other side is out of their minds, and they're the ones who are right. I'm more inclined to side with CEA, since they tend to favor consumer-friendly solutions to the problem, whereas the cablecos tend to favor the profit-friendly solutions.

Perhaps the FCC will do something, pehaps it will not. But the FCC has sought comment from the public (on 6/29/07) on whether to adopt the CEA's proposal, which includes the section quoted above. These comments are due within the coming month. This is probably the last good chance we have to object to SDV and having to go back to renting a STB to get HDTV programming.

The CEA's proposal is fairly limited. SDV isn't allowed until consumers are given the opportunity to receive SDV programming without having to rent a STB from the cable company. Its a good proposal for a number of reasons, including (1) it helps ensure that those who purchased "digital cable ready" devices that they will continue to receive programming until new consumer devices are available, (2) it provides an incentive for the cable companies to actually work with the industry to get the new "two-way" standard finalized, (3) it provides some level of comfort to future "two-way" "digital cable ready" consumers who might otherwise be worried about becoming disenfranchised from future programming if the cable company suddenly decides on a new standard (like SDV2-MPEG4), (4) it furthers the purpose of the original congressional intent of the integration ban by continuing to give consumers a choice other than renting a STB from the cable company

The simple answer to your million $ question is I wanted a DVR that would record HD and actually work. It doesn't matter if HD is on SDV or not if you're pos DVR, in my case the SA 8300, cannot reliably record a show and record it without having major sound drop offs and pixelation that makes a picture unwatchable.

Also in regard to SDV my research indicates in my area it will not happen at the very least until next year. I've got pretty good contacts at TW and they have their hands full of other issues.

Oh and fow what it's worth I saw the main contact I have at TW on "Ask Time Warner" the other day. So I have faith in what she tells me.

And as you know cable has already said they are willing to work with TiVo on a solution. Many feel that this will be done via internet, so if you still live in the stone age with a phone you may be sol.Most individuals can't afford to buy a new $799 TiVo + subscription costs every other year. The FCC mandate on July 1st that all new Cable Provider STBs support M-Card (http://broadband.motorola.com/business/digitalvideo/product_mcard.asp) connectivity to their networks will spur the development for the next generation TiVo S4s, which will be a DCR, two-way device w/M-Card slot & fully compatible with Cable SDV TV. I believe you are fooling yourself if you think there will be any reverse engineering of SDV support for the TiVo S3.

During the interim, until DCR devices with M-Card slots start showing up on the display shelves of my local Best Buy, I plan on renting an 8300HDC from Time Warner Cable:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/8300hdc-front.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/8300hdc.JPG

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/8300hdc-rear.JPG


(for the same price you pay to lease an aging SA8300) and is the first of a new generation of STB DVRs since Scientific Atlanta became a Cisco Systems owned company.

Optivity:

Do you read the post that are written or do you just ramble on with your own thoughts?

First you thinking I'm "fooling myself" doesn't line up with the facts, and the facts are that cable companies have said they want to work with TiVo to make the S3 be able to accept a two way signal. But even if they don't, I still wouldn't want that pos SA 8300 because it f#$king doesn't work. What part of that do you not understand?

Second, again it does not cost 799.00 to purchase an S3. You can get them as cheap as 400.00 is you shop around. And if "most people" can't afford it then too bad, I can.

Fact is the SA 8300 doesn't work, I've tried 3 of them and they are an unreliable piece of crap. If it doesn't work I don't care how cheap it is, it's useless.

SA 8300...the true door stop.

Optivity:

Do you read the post that are written or do you just ramble on with your own thoughts?

First you thinking I'm "fooling myself" doesn't line up with the facts, and the facts are that cable companies have said they want to work with TiVo to make the S3 be able to accept a two way signal. I hope that for all of the TiVo S3 owners this is true, but I'm not optimistic it will happen.But even if they don't, I still wouldn't want that pos SA 8300 because it f#$king doesn't work. What part of that do you not understand?I agree the SA8300HD is a pos, that's why I stopped renting one. But you should give the 8300HDC a try before rendering your opinion, not only is it new but it's made by Cisco Systems Inc. ;)

Second, again it does not cost 799.00 to purchase an S3. You can get them as cheap as 400.00 is you shop around. And if "most people" can't afford it then too bad, I can. Per the terms of our AVS Forum membership I quoted the MSRP (http://dynamic.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series3HDDVR) for the TiVo S3 as my link to their web-site proves. I chose not to use a made up price being displayed at some no-name Internet seller’s web site and I'm confident the initial pricing for the upcoming TiVo S4 will be $799.99 or higher.

MSRP (http://dynamic.tivo.com/2.0.boxdetails.asp?box=series3HDDVR) for the TiVo S3 as my link to their web-site proves. I chose not to use a made up price being displayed at some no-name Internet seller’s web site and I'm confident the initial pricing for the upcoming TiVo S4 will be $799.99 or higher.

That's another thing. I've never heard of the S4. I've not seen anything about it's development in either this forum or more importantly in the TiVo forum. The only thing I've seen concerning any new hardware is the development of a "less expensive" version of the S3. The assumption is that it will not be as full featured as the current S3. Do you have a link you can produce which talks directly about the development of the "S4"?

As far as giving the "new" SA 8300 a chance why should I? I tried the SA 8000, pos, SA 8300, pos. I have no doubt in my mind that this new version will be just like the last two.

Agreed, but what bothers me about dc10forlife's post is this rather ridiculous term that the S3 will become a "800.00 door stop" with SDV.Well, since I paid $406 for the one I kept, it doesn't apply at face-value. However, with regard to it becoming a $406 door-stop, there is some relevant to that, for many people, if you consider it hyperbole. There's often a lot of that sort of thing in online discussions, and I don't see dc10forlife's statement as any more grievous offense than the others.

Let's say SDV does go full blown. All you have to do is take a look at the areas that are in fact using it right now and there are two of them theat I know of, Austin Texas and Rochester New York. Even in those areas there are still plenty of digitatl and HD content available that is not SDV.Well, that's not full-blown, then, eh?

Second, if you're still paying 800.00 for the S3 you've got to get your head examined or better yet, pay me 800.00 and I promise I will forward your S3 in about two weeks, no charge for shipping. :rolleyes: Correct, and if you did buy it at $800, you must factor in depreciation, which is specifically the value you have derived from using it for however-many-months.

I know I'm a big TiVo Fan Boy but I just don't believe that TiVo is going to leave us out in the cold on this.I'm sorry, but I think you're glazing over reality there. I bought the S3 fully aware that if the worst-case scenario occurs, i.e., SDV comes to Burlington, then TiVo won't necessarily do anything for us, unless there is a software solution, short of giving us a discount on the S4.

What happens if your "favorite" show is on a SDV channel?Is that the only show you watch? :confused:

Will you be happy if you want to, but cannot, record it?Will being unable to watch one show make the difference between happiness and unhappiness -- if so, then the S3 wasn't worth purchasing in the first place.

The million $ (?) is... why anyone would knowingly buy an S3 that uses one-way CableCARDs?There is no such thing as "one-way CableCARDs". The issue is that the S3 doesn't have the ability to send messages back up to the cable system head-end. The CableCARDs it uses are just fine for what they're needed for.

The simple answer to your million $ question is I wanted a DVR that would record HD and actually work. It doesn't matter if HD is on SDV or not if you're pos DVR, in my case the SA 8300, cannot reliably record a show and record it without having major sound drop offs and pixelation that makes a picture unwatchable.Well, as much as I agree that optivity and dc10forlife are going off the deep end "that" way, I think you're going off the deep end "the other" way. I think the vast majority of people are between those two extremes. Personally, the Motorola DVR we have here is better than missing a whole bunch of favorite shows, but if I'd only be missing one or two favorite shows, the S3 would be better.

Then I will rent a cableco POS for the SDV channel and keep the S3 for everything else.This is really the correct answer, though some will resent paying twice. We are having to do this because there is a problem with the TiVo S3 right now: Mid-way through most SD programs on cable networks, the S3 loses Closed Captions. So in order for my wife, who is hearing-impaired, to get any enjoyment out of those shows, we have to watch them on the Motorola DVR, until TiVo decides that supporting the handicapped is worth spending development time on. :p Do I "blame" TiVo for, effectively, making us pay twice for DVR service? Maybe a little, but I think that should help put some of this "my favorite" stuff into perspective -- this isn't a matter of favorites -- it is a matter of a disability, something my wife didn't choose.

Perhaps the FCC will do something, pehaps it will not. But the FCC has sought comment from the public (on 6/29/07) on whether to adopt the CEA's proposal, which includes the section quoted above. Uh, they also sought comment from the public on whether to adopt the cable industry's proposal.

... cable companies have said they want to work with TiVo to make the S3 be able to accept a two way signal.More than one? I have only read about Comcast stating that... which other?

Either someone show me a link indicating from a reliable source that TiVo is working on the S4. Otherwise my speculation that TiVo will help those of us who have S3's is just as solid as a speculation about the S4.

I agree -- I suspect neither speculation is solid. :D

Could someone give me a couple of suggestions where to buy a Tivo Series3 at less than full retail, ie Circuit City and Best Buy.

Costco

thanks for the suggestion. is there anyway to transfer a lifetime subscription from a series2 to a series3?

Could someone give me a couple of suggestions where to buy a Tivo Series3 at less than full retail, ie Circuit City and Best Buy.

The TiVo Community Store HERE (http://store.tivocommunity.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=EA&Product_Code=2777&Category_Code=S3TIVO)

That's another thing. I've never heard of the S4. I've not seen anything about it's development in either this forum or more importantly in the TiVo forum. The only thing I've seen concerning any new hardware is the development of a "less expensive" version of the S3. The assumption is that it will not be as full featured as the current S3. Do you have a link you can produce which talks directly about the development of the "S4"?

As far as giving the "new" SA 8300 a chance why should I? I tried the SA 8000, pos, SA 8300, pos. I have no doubt in my mind that this new version will be just like the last two.TWs program guide looks basically the same but the firmware is updated to support two-way OCAP communications and most likely during the past three years refinements have been made to the 8300 series DVR HDD, tuner & MPEG decoder chipsets.

The TiVo S4, or whatever else TiVo names it, is likely to be a rebadged TiVo S3 with an M-CARD slot.

TWs program guide looks basically the same but the firmware is updated to support two-way OCAP communications and most likely during the past three years refinements have been made to the 8300 series DVR HDD, tuner & MPEG decoder chipsets.

The TiVo S4, or whatever else TiVo names it, is likely to be a rebadged TiVo S3 with an M-CARD slot.

Not in my area. They have attempted to update the firmware 3 times in the past year and a half, going back to when Adelphia owned it and after a short time returned to 1.87.xx.x.

If anything the SA 8300 HDC is more likely just to have the cable card slot put in it and they expanded the hard drive a bit.

And once again everything else you have said about the non existant S4 is speculation. Many also speculate that two way communication can exist through the internet. Again just speculation. I've yet to see where SA has done anything to it's box itself to improve it other than adding the HDMI on the SA 8300. They also failed to ever activate the DVI on the SA 8000.

In my area the program guide doesn't even show if it is first run or repeat, and I know the SA 8300 can be set for that IF the guide is available.

everything else you have said about the non existant S4 is speculation.Speculative indeed, but probably not too far off the mark. We'll know next year.Many also speculate that two way communication can exist through the internet. Again just speculation.Standards have to be established before any equipment is manufactured. Effective July 1, 2007 the mechanism for DRM authorization is through an M-Card. The FCC chose to implement this next step towards DCAS in order to persuade the Cable MSOs to halt their never ending stalling tactics to open their cable systems.

Hey all- I am getting this message that there if a firmware upgrade for over 24 hours now- I called Comcast atnd they have sent a signal twice- I have also unplugged the TiVo and nothing seems to work. I saw on the troubleshooting thing on the TiVo to remove any signal splitters- could this really be the problem? I did reinstall a splitter a couple of days befor the firmware upgrade msg came up- I like having access to basic cable in case there is a problem like this- please let me know if anyone has any insights. If they have to come replace the cable cards this will be the 4th time. Thanks.

The TiVo S4, or whatever else TiVo names it, is likely to be a rebadged TiVo S3 with an M-CARD slot.

Well, since the S3 already has an M-CARD slot (slot 0), the S4 will have to have more ... :)

People keep talking about "S4", when there's only been a single model of Series 3. One model does not a Series make.

True, but by the same token, Series is a matter of basic architecture. There is no requirement to release a number of models with a single series.

Having said that, the new box coming up this Fall will almost surely be another model in the S3 series.

Naw, I say give it a whole new name. How about TiVo HD Cheapo. Or maybe keep the S3 and call it S3 Basic.

I'm really interested to see it when it gets here, specailly if MRV becomes availavable. I'd love to record my shows that conflict on an TiVo instead of recording from my HD Box to DVD.

Well, since the S3 already has an M-CARD slot (slot 0), the S4 will have to have more ... :)While the S3 is compatible with M-Cards it is a unidirectional device:

"Some cable operators are deploying M-Cards™ (multi-stream CableCARDs) into the field. An M-Card is a CableCARD that is capable of running in either single-stream mode (supports one tuner) or multi-stream mode (single card can support multiple tuners). We are exploring support of M-Cards in multi-stream mode (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=bb83ae57-ea46-4162-ab65-4bfde6a851e4)."

While the S3 is compatible with M-Cards it is a unidirectional device:

"Some cable operators are deploying M-Cards™ (multi-stream CableCARDs) into the field. An M-Card is a CableCARD that is capable of running in either single-stream mode (supports one tuner) or multi-stream mode (single card can support multiple tuners). We are exploring support of M-Cards in multi-stream mode (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=bb83ae57-ea46-4162-ab65-4bfde6a851e4)."

True, the S3 hardware itself is not capable of multidirectional activity. That is why some have suggested the internet may be where the solution lies in trying to work it out with cable companies.

True, the S3 hardware itself is not capable of multidirectional activity. That is why some have suggested the internet may be where the solution lies in trying to work it out with cable companies.Next year TiVo should release an HD DVR with an M-Card slot. Unfortunately, my assumption is there will be little, if no, reverse engineering for the S3s. Having used a 50PX50U with a one-way CableCARD slot & TW since 2005 I knew the SDV handwriting was on the wall when the S3s came out, which is the main reason why I decided not to purchase one.

Hopefully during 2008 we will see many different DCR devices with M-Card slots. For now, I'm just waiting until two-way/interactive digital video equipment becomes available before I start spending an additional $$,$$$. :eek: dollars more for another TV, DVR, Blu Ray player, receiver, etc.

. Having used a 50PX50U with a one-way CableCARD slot & TW since 2005 I knew the SDV handwriting was on the wall when the S3s came out, which is the main reason why I decided not to purchase one.




I can only take so much of this. Do you think you're the only one who knew about SDV before purchasing the S3? Do you think that everyone who bought the S3 are people who just didn't know any better?

I'm sorry but that's just not true. Many of us were well aware of SDV before purchasing the S3. I certainly took it into consideration but I know for a fact in my area SDV is a long long way off. Also when I have a DVR that doesn't do what it's suppose to do, that is record shows when I want it to, what other choice did I have?

You're constant insistance the the S3 is going to become obsolete is not only irritating, it's totally untrue. I don't know how many other ways we need to explain it to you. I personally trust TiVo will come up with a solution long before SDV gets to my area, in the mean time I'm going to rest assured that when I program my DVR it is going to record at the time I want and the show I want and recognize conflicts with out me babysitting the damn thing.

You're pontificating about how smart you are on not making a purchase of the S3 is no longer necessary. You've said it many times and we all understand how you feel.

I can only take so much of this. Do you think you're the only one who knew about SDV before purchasing the S3? Do you think that everyone who bought the S3 are people who just didn't know any better?

I'm sorry but that's just not true. Many of us were well aware of SDV before purchasing the S3. I certainly took it into consideration but I know for a fact in my area SDV is a long long way off. Also when I have a DVR that doesn't do what it's suppose to do, that is record shows when I want it to, what other choice did I have?

You're constant insistance the the S3 is going to become obsolete is not only irritating, it's totally untrue. I don't know how many other ways we need to explain it to you. I personally trust TiVo will come up with a solution long before SDV gets to my area, in the mean time I'm going to rest assured that when I program my DVR it is going to record at the time I want and the show I want and recognize conflicts with out me babysitting the damn thing.

You're pontificating about how smart you are on not making a purchase of the S3 is no longer necessary. You've said it many times and we all understand how you feel.Sorry dude... don't get all lathered up over some future/theoretical pseudo m-card like feature being "researched" for your TiVo S3.

I hope for your sake they can kludge something up for you. :D


As far as I'm concerned it's also a matter of economics and good-will points with the WAF. I can't afford to buy a new $799.99 TiVo every other year, so if I happen to purchase one some day I hope it will last for a very long time.

No offense intended but the TiVo S3 was obsolete as soon as it was announced during CES 2006 and anyone who was using a DCR with a one-way CableCARD slot/connection since 2005 already knew that.

If you can afford to buy all the TiVo’s you want more power to you, but I have made the mistake of buying a TV with a one way CableCARD slot and I don't intend to do that again.

Many of us were well aware of SDV before purchasing the S3.Indeed. It was surely a consideration. I suspect that the local broadcast HDs are probably going to be among the last channels Comcast puts on to SDV anyway. Really, we have many options (including using the S3 for OTA while subscribing to DirecTV).

I personally trust TiVo will come up with a solution long before SDV gets to my areaI don't, at least not without requiring a substantial additional outlay for adjunct hardware. I think folks considering the S3 really should figure that SDV will be a brick wall... that's the safest assumption to make right now.

Next year TiVo should release an HD DVR with an M-Card slot. Unfortunately, my assumption is there will be little, if no, reverse engineering for the S3s. Having used a 50PX50U with a one-way CableCARD slot & TW since 2005 I knew the SDV handwriting was on the wall when the S3s came out, which is the main reason why I decided not to purchase one.

Hopefully during 2008 we will see many different DCR devices with M-Card slots. For now, I'm just waiting until two-way/interactive digital video equipment becomes available before I start spending an additional $$,$$$. :eek: dollars more for another TV, DVR, Blu Ray player, receiver, etc.

Man, you have got to get your facts straight. There are a lot of folks out there that have an HD DVR with an M-Card slot. It's called the TiVo Series 3. The hardware is in place, and all TiVo has to do is roll out a software update to turn it on. Simple.

Man, you have got to get your facts straight. There are a lot of folks out there that have an HD DVR with an M-Card slot. It's called the TiVo Series 3. The hardware is in place, and all TiVo has to do is roll out a software update to turn it on. Simple.Are you sure about that or just being hopeful?

Are you sure about that or just being hopeful?

TiVo has from Day 1 said that the Series3 was M-Card capable. They've said it all along, from the CES shows until today. No doubt about it.

Until very recently, TiVo could not have properly released an M-Card hardware or software platform.

Two things have changed recently to remove this blockage from TiVo's plans. 1) CableLabs has released a certification process to allow devices to become certified for use with M-Cards, and 2) there are finally M-Cards rolling off the assembly lines now.

Kind of hard to release a licensed product without the licensor's consent, and without a key piece of hardware to enable said product.

I agree with Paul that the chances are very high that TiVo will someday release the SW update necessary to enable M-Card functionality on the S3. But my question to optivity is: why do you care so much about M-Card functionality? Is it really so awful to have to rent 2 CableCARDs instead of one? I just don't understand statements like "Hopefully during 2008 we will see many different DCR devices with M-Card slots." Why do you hope for this?

Seems to me if anything you should be hoping for DCAS solutions (if they ever license it without OCAP). Now that should be a real cost-savings.

Edit: I now understand that optivity mistakenly thought M-Cards implied 2-way communication. This is not true, however. They are unrelated.

But my question to optivity is: why do you care so much about M-Card functionality?"Currently, the Series3 HD DVR will support M-Cards in single-stream mode (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=bb83ae57-ea46-4162-ab65-4bfde6a851e4)"

I am interested in A/V equipment with M-Card slot(s) because they enable a multi-stream DCR device to directly receive/decrypt the digital signal sent from a CATV provider and M-Cards will support two-way services.

I agree with Paul that the chances are very high that TiVo will someday release the SW update necessary to enable M-Card functionality on the S3.

Sorry, it's not going to work that way. The hardware on the S3 simply is not capable of two way transmission so there can be no SW update possible.

That's why I keep saying it's got to be done somehow via internet.

"Currently, the Series3 HD DVR will support M-Cards in single-stream mode (http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=bb83ae57-ea46-4162-ab65-4bfde6a851e4)"

I am interested in A/V equipment with M-Card slot(s) because they enable a multi-stream DCR device to directly receive/decrypt the digital signal sent from a CATV provider and M-Cards will support two-way services.

S Cards also support two way services in hosts designed to enable two way.

From http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

CableCARD 1.0
The early cable removable security cards were called Point-of-Deployment (POD) modules. CableLabs later coined the term CableCARD™ and began describing the removable security devices as CableCARD security modules. The SCTE standards (ANSI/SCTE-28 and ANSI/SCTE-41) still use the term POD module. These are two names for the same thing.

From the very early specifications and draft standards, the CableCARD module has been a two-way device. That is, it included the functionality to enable two-way communication on the cable plant. This two-way communication is necessary for a variety of advanced cable services including video on demand (VOD), switched digital video (SDV), interactive services and applications.

The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices1. This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability. However the manufacturers of digital TVs requested that a host standard be developed that only had one-way capability. This one-way cable-ready receiver was defined by the FCC's Plug & Play order and by the Joint Test Suite (JTS). It is the definition of this one-way receiver that lacks the ability for two-way functionality, not the CableCARD module. While the FCC defined the elements of the one-way cable-ready receiver, CableLabs continued to define specifications for two-way receivers.

When a CableCARD 1.0 module is used with a two-way receiver (e.g., Samsung HLR5067C) that card supports all the necessary two-way functionality for VOD, SDV, and other interactive services.

Sorry, it's not going to work that way. The hardware on the S3 simply is not capable of two way transmission so there can be no SW update possible.

That's why I keep saying it's got to be done somehow via internet.

There's really two facets that M-Cards can bring to the table, and the S3 can only take advantage of one of them.

The first capability is being able to support up to six tuners. TiVo has said from Day 1 that the S3 was designed to support the M-Card tuning 2 channels, so that is what I expect TiVo to deliver sometime in the future. It's very likely that the "cost reduced" Series3 unit that TiVo intends to ship this fall/winter will only have a single M-Card slot, in order to save money on the cost of fabbing the unit.

The second capability is bidirectional communications with the head-end, for use with SDV, PPV or VOD. Unfortunately, the S3 can't take advantage of this since TiVo couldn't include the necessary xmit hardware support to make use of it. They're constrained by the unidirectional license and certification that CableLabs gave them.

The two likely bidirectional workarounds for TiVo would be a USB dongle to offload the , or an out-of-band internet-based back-channel connection between the S3 and the cable provider. The internet based approach would probably incur a latency of a few seconds between operations, which may or may not may the concept unfeasible.

S Cards also support two way services in hosts designed to enable two way.

From http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html

CableCARD 1.0
The early cable removable security cards were called Point-of-Deployment (POD) modules. CableLabs later coined the term CableCARD™ and began describing the removable security devices as CableCARD security modules. The SCTE standards (ANSI/SCTE-28 and ANSI/SCTE-41) still use the term POD module. These are two names for the same thing.

From the very early specifications and draft standards, the CableCARD module has been a two-way device. That is, it included the functionality to enable two-way communication on the cable plant. This two-way communication is necessary for a variety of advanced cable services including video on demand (VOD), switched digital video (SDV), interactive services and applications.

The media has frequently reported that first-generation CableCARD 1.0 modules are one-way devices1. This is simply not true. CableLabs had always intended to develop the CableCARD module and host receiver standards with two-way capability. However the manufacturers of digital TVs requested that a host standard be developed that only had one-way capability. This one-way cable-ready receiver was defined by the FCC's Plug & Play order and by the Joint Test Suite (JTS). It is the definition of this one-way receiver that lacks the ability for two-way functionality, not the CableCARD module. While the FCC defined the elements of the one-way cable-ready receiver, CableLabs continued to define specifications for two-way receivers.

When a CableCARD 1.0 module is used with a two-way receiver (e.g., Samsung HLR5067C) that card supports all the necessary two-way functionality for VOD, SDV, and other interactive services.


Ahh... yes. There's nothing like the smell of stale BS to wake up to in the morning. I have a very hard time taking anything coming out of the NCTA or CableLabs at face value, especially since the vast majority of their PR/news-wire stuff skew the facts in such an amazing way as to make them comical. Such as the $600 million dollar cost to consumers for the roll-out of CableCARDs. No scare tactics, there, eh ? :(

The nugget of truth in this quote is that the physical CC 1.0 card does support bi-directional support. All of the new CableCARD boxes that are rolling out in support of the 7/01/07 FCC mandate will indeed function as such.

The deception in this quote is that CableLabs is only willing to certify 3rd party boxes as OCUR devices (read : OpenCable UNIDIRECTIONAL Receiver). That's right, 3rd party vendors were unable to get a bidirectional license from CableLabs, so they had to remain unidirectional. Nothing like crippling your competition's box out of the gate.

NCTA's foot-dragging, whining and complaining about CableCARD is nauseating.

There's really two facets that M-Cards can bring to the table, and the S3 can only take advantage of one of them.

The first capability is being able to support up to six tuners. TiVo has said from Day 1 that the S3 was designed to support the M-Card tuning 2 channels, so that is what I expect TiVo to deliver sometime in the future. It's very likely that the "cost reduced" Series3 unit that TiVo intends to ship this fall/winter will only have a single M-Card slot, in order to save money on the cost of fabbing the unit.Tivo beta testers were asked to obtain MCARDs (to replace their older CableCards) a few months ago, if that is any hint.

You can expect the new unit to have two slots in front, but MCARD multi-tuner support will be there from day one. This capability should also launch for the existing Series3 within the next few months.

As noted there will be no two-way support because Cable Labs does not allow that in a box like the Tivo which has its own interface. Only OCAP devices which use the cable company interface are permitted to use two-way services.

Tivo beta testers were asked to obtain MCARDs (to replace their older CableCards) a few months ago, if that is any hint.
Since TiVo beta testers agree to a strict nondisclosure agreement, which prohibits them from telling anybody anything at any time about what they learn from being beta testers, or even that they are beta testers, it appears that somebody who signed TiVo’s NDA violated its terms. Think about it.

Since TiVo beta testers agree to a strict nondisclosure agreement, which prohibits them from telling anybody anything at any time about what they learn from being beta testers, or even that they are beta testers, it appears that somebody who signed TiVo’s NDA violated its terms. Think about it.Of course, you're ignoring the possibility that Tivo informed the cable companies of what they were doing without a non-disclosure agreement. I know that is true in at least one case.

Tivo beta testers were asked to obtain MCARDs (to replace their older CableCards) a few months ago, if that is any hint.

You can expect the new unit to have two slots in front, but MCARD multi-tuner support will be there from day one. This capability should also launch for the existing Series3 within the next few months.

As noted there will be no two-way support because Cable Labs does not allow that in a box like the Tivo which has its own interface. Only OCAP devices which use the cable company interface are permitted to use two-way services.

I've seen the "spy photos" just like everyone else. I don't doubt they're authentic, but I have my doubts about whether a simple re-spin of the same exact S3 hardware platform can achieve the kind of cost reductions that TiVo's looking for in the next S3. My guess is that they simply took the existing S3 CableCARD mount and slapped it in the front of that frankenstein unit in the photos, whereas the final product will probably only have the single M-Card slot as a cost reduction.

Also, as gwsat points out, TiVo beta testers are bound by an NDA which strictly forbids them from disclosing anything about what they're testing, or that they're even involved in testing.

Of course, you're ignoring the possibility that Tivo informed the cable companies of what they were doing without a non-disclosure agreement. I know that is true in at least one case.

The only case I can think of was the "self-certification" process of the S3 rev. B, which became apparent in the pdf's that dt_dc loves to post on the TCF. What else was there ? PM if necessary.

I've seen the "spy photos" just like everyone else. I don't doubt they're authentic, but I have my doubts about whether a simple re-spin of the same exact S3 hardware platform can achieve the kind of cost reductions that TiVo's looking for in the next S3. My guess is that they simply took the existing S3 CableCARD mount and slapped it in the front of that frankenstein unit in the photos, whereas the final product will probably only have the single M-Card slot as a cost reduction.It's definitely not the same hardware platform.

Tivo Series3 Specifications (TCD648250B)
- BCM7038 DVR CPU with MPEG-2 decoder
- BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder
- 2x BCM7042 MPEG-2 encoders
- 2x Samsung S5H1409-based tuners (analog/QAM/8VSB)
- 128Mb SDRAM (plus SDRAM for BCM7042s)
- 250Gb SATA HD
- relatively large, 4-layer PCB (?)
- THX certification
- Front panel OLED display
- Glossy, backlit learning remote
- Made in Mexico
- $799 MSRP

Unconfirmed Series3 "Lite" Specifications (TCD652160)
- Broadcom BCM740x DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
- 1x dual MPEG-2 encoder (BCM7041 or possibly an encoder from LSI)
- 2x Samsung S5H1411 (http://www.koreanewswire.co.kr/en_read.php?id=249158&no=0&nmode=&ca=&ca1=English-&ca2=&sf=&st=&of=&nwof=&conttype=&tm=1&type=&hotissue=&sdate=&eflag=&emonth=&spno=&exid=&rg1=&rg2=&rg3=&tt=/)-based tuners (analog/QAM/8VSB)
- 128Mb DDR SDRAM
- 160Gb SATA HD
- Smaller, lower-cost PCB
- Cheaper power supply
- No THX certification
- No OLED display
- Standard Tivo remote
- $299 MSRP

Official TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
- Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
- 2x ATI Theater 314 based tuners
- 2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL encoders, each with 16MB RAM (2x NT5DS8M16FS-5T)
- VIXS XCode 2115 IC (CableCard interface + MPEG-2/MPEG-4 SD->SD and HD->SD transcoders)
- 256Mb DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
- 160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive
- Xilinx Spartan-? FPGA
- Lower-cost PCB (no PCI slots)
- Cheaper power supply
- No THX certification
- No OLED display
- Standard Tivo remote
- $299 MSRP


http://www.filenanny.com/files/44f7b9c9f14e0/31GajnR8QbL.jpg

Google "TCD652160" and you might get a few hits, although you'll have to look at the cached results since Tivo has had most of the offending pages removed. Even Amazon has pictures of the TCD652160 on their site...

To clarify, I am not under NDA with Tivo.

It's definitely not the same hardware platform.

Tivo Series3 Specifications (TCD648250B)
- BCM7038 DVR CPU with MPEG-2 decoder
- BCM7411 MPEG-4 decoder
- 2x BCM7042 MPEG-2 encoders
- 2x Samsung S5H1409-based tuners (analog/QAM/8VSB)
- 128Mb SDRAM (plus SDRAM for BCM7042s)
- 250Gb SATA HD
- relatively large, 4-layer PCB (?)
- THX certification
- Front panel OLED display
- Glossy, backlit learning remote
- Made in Mexico
- $799 MSRP

Unconfirmed Series3 "Lite" Specifications (TCD652160)
- BCM740x DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
- 1x dual MPEG-2 encoder (BCM7041 or possibly an encoder from LSI)
- 2x Samsung S5H1411 (http://www.koreanewswire.co.kr/en_read.php?id=249158&no=0&nmode=&ca=&ca1=English-&ca2=&sf=&st=&of=&nwof=&conttype=&tm=1&type=&hotissue=&sdate=&eflag=&emonth=&spno=&exid=&rg1=&rg2=&rg3=&tt=/)-based tuners (analog/QAM/8VSB)
- 128Mb DDR SDRAM
- 160Gb SATA HD
- Smaller, lower-cost PCB
- Cheaper power supply
- No THX certification
- No OLED display
- Standard Tivo remote
- $299 MSRP

Google "TCD652160" and you might get a few hits, although you'll have to look at the cached results since Tivo has had most of the offending pages removed.

To clarify, I am not under NDA with Tivo.


First I've seen those. Thanks.

Nothing surprising, when you see the actual chipsets being talked about. Replacing older standalone chips with newer, integrated chips, with the eye of getting you to a smaller overall board is SOP. Also, a few of the more obvious choices (no THX, no OLED, smaller drive, vanilla remote) are here as well. Still, given all of that, that's apretty aggressive cost reduction goal to get the MSRP down that much. Perhaps Chinese manufacture as well ?

Of course, you're ignoring the possibility that Tivo informed the cable companies of what they were doing without a non-disclosure agreement. I know that is true in at least one case.
I hope that's what happened, as I would hate to think ill of anyone. :)

EDIT: Typo corrected

Another picture someone on TivoCommunity found via Google...

http://www.filenanny.com/files/44f7b9c9f14e0/31GajnR8QbL.jpg

Still, given all of that, that's apretty aggressive cost reduction goal to get the MSRP down that much. Perhaps Chinese manufacture as well ?I don't know, but the price would certainly suggest that.

That's an amazing reduction in price not reflected in changes in the BOM. If they bring that to market at that price, I'd expect a significant concurrent reduction in the price of the S3 $500 for 100GB of storage, a second MPEG encoder, THX certification, OLED display and a beefier power supply would be a huge rip-off.

I am interested in A/V equipment with M-Card slot(s) because [...] M-Cards will support two-way services.
Sorry, it's not going to work that way. The hardware on the S3 simply is not capable of two way transmission so there can be no SW update possible.Both of these statements show a fundamental lack of understanding about M-Cards. I can't really blame you...there is so much confusion out there about M-Cards, CableCARD 2.0 and OCAP that you're definitely not alone in this. But at least I understand now where optivity's (misdirected) enthusiasm for M-Cards came from.

To be clear: There is no relationship between M-Cards and 2-way services!

Also, just to be really clear: There is no such thing as a "future version of CableCARD that will enable support for 2-way services." All CableCARDS, be they S-Cards or M-Cards, support 2-way services! It is the design of the HOST DEVICE, not the CableCARD, that needs to change to support 2-way services.

Both of these statements show a fundamental lack of understanding about M-Cards. I can't really blame you...there is so much confusion out there about M-Cards, CableCARD 2.0 and OCAP that you're definitely not alone in this. But at least I understand now where optivity's (misdirected) enthusiasm for M-Cards came from.

To be clear: There is no relationship between M-Cards and 2-way services!

Also, just to be really clear: There is no such thing as a "future version of CableCARD that will enable support for 2-way services." All CableCARDS, be they S-Cards or M-Cards, support 2-way services! It is the design of the HOST DEVICE, not the CableCARD, that needs to change to support 2-way services.

How in the world is my statement a fundemental misunderstaning about cable cards? I stated that the S3 hardware is not capable of two way communication no matter what card you put in there. And hey, I'm willing to admit that I don't have the best understanding about cable cards but I know when in the S3 FAQ'S it states that the S3 is not capable of two way communcation because of hardware, that's simply a fact. So much so that it agrees with everything you say.

You beat me to it. Your earlier post wasn't inconsistent with the notion that CableCARDs are capable of two way service. The point is that the S3 is incapable of two-way service, even with a two-way card, which is just what you said.

Hookbill, you responded to my comment:

the chances are very high that TiVo will someday release the SW update necessary to enable M-Card functionality on the S3.with this comment:

Sorry, it's not going to work that way. The hardware on the S3 simply is not capable of two way transmission Maybe you misread my post above, but your response was a mischaracterization of M-Card functionality, which is all I was talking about.

No I didn't miss your post. And I'm still at a loss as to why my response misrepresented cable cards. Let's just say we agree on the concept that the S3 isn't capable of two way communication due to hardware and call it a day. ;)

You beat me to it. Your earlier post wasn't inconsistent with the notion that CableCARDs are capable of two way service. The point is that the S3 is incapable of two-way service, even with a two-way card, which is just what you said.Brian Miller's point is that there are no unidirectional or bidirectional cards, only unidirectional and bidirectional host interfaces. CableCARDs do not provide communication services, just a way of authenticating that the host that they're installed in is authorized to receive various conditional access service streams and a means for decrypting the content of those streams. Your CableCARD-enabled device (STB--like TiVo--or television) tunes the frequency of the QAM carrier containing the service that you want to access, and gives the stream to the CableCARD to decode. The CableCARD uses some proprietary method of decoding the stream (Motorola's DigiCipher, SA's PowerKey, etc), then re-encrypts it and returns it to the host (STB or television) using the DFAST standard.

S Cards also support two way services in hosts designed to enable two way.The Cable TV providers and A/V Equipment Manufacturers are more interested in selling new products & services rather than spend their shareholders money on reverse engineering an obsolete technology.

The Cable TV providers and A/V Equipment Manufacturers are more interested in selling new products & services rather than spend their shareholders money on reverse engineering an obsolete technology.

That statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The point is that both S Cards and M Cards support bidirectional communications. Neither is 'obsolete'.

Brian Miller's point is that there are no unidirectional or bidirectional cards, only unidirectional and bidirectional host interfaces. CableCARDs do not provide communication services
This isn't true either. It depends on the design of the system.

Some CableCARD (POD) operating scenarios have the POD providing a full-duplex QPSK modem for the benefit of itself as well as the host. Using this feature the POD can perform Conditional Access and PPV reportback functions without flows travelling across the HOST/POD interface. This is a specific example from ANSISCTE282004 section 5.2.

There is also another design where the Host provides a high speed modem and is set up in DSG mode. In this case CA and RPT functions have data flowing across the HOST/POD interface and the host's high speed modem does the communication.

No I didn't miss your post. And I'm still at a loss as to why my response misrepresented cable cards. Let's just say we agree on the concept that the S3 isn't capable of two way communication due to hardware and call it a day. ;)
It wasn't necessarily the text of your reply that misrepresented CableCARDs. What you said was consistent.

The inconsistency was the comment on the quote from Brian Miller you attached to your reply.


the chances are very high that TiVo will someday release the SW update necessary to enable M-Card functionality on the S3.
Basically what he said was TiVo will likely release a SW update to enable M-mode operation so the S3 could use a single M-Card to handle multiple streams.

To this you replied

Sorry, it's not going to work that way. The hardware on the S3 simply is not capable of two way transmission
Brian wasn't saying anything about releasing a SW update to support 2-way on S3 so it didn't really make sense to quote his post in your reply.

I think you both know what is going on, but possibly each thought *at the time of the replies* the *other* person felt M-Card implied 2-way host support.

From both of your later comments it is clear neither of you feel that M-Card implies 2-way host support, which it doesn't.

This isn't true either. It depends on the design of the system.

Some CableCARD (POD) operating scenarios have the POD providing a full-duplex QPSK modem for the benefit of itself as well as the host. Using this feature the POD can perform Conditional Access and PPV reportback functions without flows travelling across the HOST/POD interface. This is a specific example from ANSISCTE282004 section 5.2.

There is also another design where the Host provides a high speed modem and is set up in DSG mode. In this case CA and RPT functions have data flowing across the HOST/POD interface and the host's high speed modem does the communication.I misspoke--sorry. I meant that there is no hardware in the POD for direct communication across the wire. It does provide communication services on a software level, since anything that the network has to say to the host out-of-band (or that the host has to say back in a bidirectional system) is going to be couched in some transport at the lowest level as it moves over the broadband network (which I'd guess to typically be proprietary). The actual QPSK transmitter and receiver hardware elements are implemented in the host interface. If there is no 00B transmitter om the host device, there is no backchannel, no matter what the POD provides.

Yes, I believe we are now both on the same page.

Just so there is no confusion I'll post what the specs say (which is consistent with our understanding)
The Host-POD Interface will operate in one of two modes, a mode using SCTE 55-1
or SCTE 55-2 OOB channels (the OOB mode), or a mode that uses the DOCSIS Settop
Gateway (DSG) for the forward OOB messaging and the normal DOCSIS IP
channel for return traffic (the DSG mode).

In the first mode of operation, the signaling functions are split between the Host and
the POD Module such that only the RF processing and QPSK demodulation and
modulation are done in the Host. The Advanced Host will operate in either of these
two modes, OOB or DSG, based on network configurations. All other Hosts will
operate in the OOB mode.

The remainder of the processing, including all of the Data-link and MAC protocols, is
implemented in the POD Module. This split was chosen for the following reasons:
- SCTE 55-1 and SCTE 55-2 use common modulation (QPSK), but in all other
respects are quite different. Only the parts of the protocol stack common to
both OOB schemes are included in the Host.
- Future development of OOB protocols should not be precluded. By placing
the majority of the OOB processing in the POD Module, the OOB can be
renewed at a future time by replacement of the POD Module.
- It is important to the cable operator that the reverse (upstream) transmissions
from any device are correctly controlled, because a single uncontrolled device
can impair a significant portion of the shared access network. By
implementing the media access control processing in the POD Module, the
cable operator can maintain the integrity of the access network.
- All processing of conditional access messages is done in the POD Module.
This approach is taken to protect from theft-of-service attacks.

...


A.2. OOB TX Channel Available
When the Host includes POD TX support, it includes the RF circuitry that enables the
POD Module to control the out-of-band. The POD Module demultiplexes from the
OOB stream the Host’s application messages and the POD Module’s application
messages and transmit the Host’s application messages through the Extended
Channel, and keeps its own application messages for its own use. On the return path,
the POD Module multiplexes the Host’s application messages with its own messaging
and transmits them to the Cable System.

Both of these statements show a fundamental lack of understanding about M-Cards. I can't really blame you...there is so much confusion out there about M-Cards, CableCARD 2.0 and OCAP that you're definitely not alone in this. But at least I understand now where optivity's (misdirected) enthusiasm for M-Cards came from.

To be clear: There is no relationship between M-Cards and 2-way services!

Also, just to be really clear: There is no such thing as a "future version of CableCARD that will enable support for 2-way services." All CableCARDS, be they S-Cards or M-Cards, support 2-way services! It is the design of the HOST DEVICE, not the CableCARD, that needs to change to support 2-way services.That statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

The point is that both S Cards and M Cards support bidirectional communications. Neither is 'obsolete'.M-Cards are a significant step forward towards an open cable environment because A/V equipment manufacturers & consumers are assured the next generation of DCR devices will support SDV & interactive services.

Regardless of the technical nuances pertaining to one-way or M-Card CableCARDs, one way devices (e.g. PX50U, S3) shall remain one-way which means an HD TiVo will not be able to record any channel that is moved to SDV and my 50PX50U will never be able to bring up TWs program guide or take advantage of TWs PPV or on-Demand services, unless these unidirectional products are front-ended by something like a standard STB.

If the consumer wants a device that can accept a direct digital signal and provide support for their cable TV providers SDV/two-way services, beginning in 2008 they will have to obtain a DCR platform with an M-Card slot or some future incarnation of DCR components that support DCAS.

If the consumer wants a device that can accept a direct digital signal and provide support for their cable TV providers SDV/two-way services, beginning in 2008 they will have to obtain a DCR platform with an M-Card slot or some future incarnation of DCR components that support DCAS.

Great. I can't wait until that happens. In 2012.

My problem with this whole process is that it's a never chase for a moving target, on the part of CableLabs and the NCTA. CableCARD was supposed to remedy much of the current ills related to interoperability in cable systems. But the NCTA railed against it, and continues to drag its feet to this day concerning this technology, despite the fact that they drew up the plans for it. Their proposed solution, OCAP, is both CEA and consumer unfriendly, but they still are trying to plow it through. And just in case OCAP doesn't work, we've got DCAS coming down the pipe in a few years to further muddy the waters.

My fear is that we'll never reach a destination that makes everyone happy. That there will always be another solution to the problem in the pipe that will be ready in 3-5 years. That will cause enough confusion in the marketplace because of this never-ending procession of NCTA-foised standards to prevent effective products from hitting the market from 3rd party manufacturers.

And I still contend that the problem is allowing government to interfere so much. The simple, enforcible, and productive regulation would have read:

1) All occupied buildings within a service area must be able to receive viewable broadcasts for all local broadcast channels, either via analog signals or via a STB provided by the cable system (their choice), at a reasonable fee as determined by a state review board. Cable systems have the right to downconvert any local broadcasts to ensure compliance with this regulation, regardless of other regulations that may indicate the contrary.

(No requirement for HD -- just "viewable".)

2) Any suitably-capitalized company wishing to lay cable necessary to support terrestrial subscription television service must be granted reasonable accommodations in doing so, by all municipalities.

Period. That's it. The marketplace should have determined the rest.

M-Cards are a significant step forward towards an open cable environment because A/V equipment manufacturers & consumers are assured the next generation of DCR devices will support SDV & interactive services.
The whole point of the last couple of pages was detailing reasons why M-Cards, by themselves, assure one of no such thing. If the *host* device supports SDV and interactive services, it will support them via M-Card and S-Card. The CableCARD being M-Card or S-Card is not the limiting (or enabling) factor for those functions/services.
Regardless of the technical nuances pertaining to one-way or M-Card CableCARDs, one way devices (e.g. PX50U, S3) shall remain one-way which means an HD TiVo will not be able to record any channel that is moved to SDV and my 50PX50U will never be able to bring up TWs program guide or take advantage of TWs PPV or on-Demand services, unless these unidirectional products are front-ended by something like a standard STB.
I would say one-way host devices (which truly are one-way, ie they don't include QPSK RF circuitry and don't include Docsis modem, vs ones that have included them but have chosen not to enable them) which have no means of expansion nor do they have any way other way of 2-way communication (for example TCP/IP) will never have a chance of being updated. TiVo S3 has other mechanisms for 2-way communication so if the parties wanted to cooperate, they could come up with a workaround for lack of 2-way in the traditional paths specified in the specs.

If the consumer wants a device that can [...] provide support for their cable TV providers SDV/two-way services, beginning in 2008 they will have to obtain a DCR platform with an M-Card slotBut this is untrue, for 2 reasons:

1) An S-Card slot containing an S-Card CableCARD would work perfectly fine with 2-way services (if the host device supported 2-way services, of course).
2) An M-Card slot in no way implies that the device supports 2-way services.

Do you agree with the above?

I think you both know what is going on, but possibly each thought *at the time of the replies* the *other* person felt M-Card implied 2-way host support.Yeah, maybe you're right! Just a misunderstanding. :)

Hookbill, do you see any reason why TiVo would not release a SW update to enable M-Card functionality (not interactivity) on the S3?

Yeah, maybe you're right! Just a misunderstanding. :)

Hookbill, do you see any reason why TiVo would not release a SW update to enable M-Card functionality (not interactivity) on the S3?


There wouldn't be any reason not to. In fact, TiVo was already verified as an M-Card device by the NCTA in March 2007. LINK (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=5274094&&#post5274094). All that would remain would be a software update from TiVo to enable this functionality. That much is fairly certain.

What is less certain are reports that TiVo's already had some beta testers trying to test M-Cards with the S3. Take that for what you will...

Yeah, maybe you're right! Just a misunderstanding. :)

Hookbill, do you see any reason why TiVo would not release a SW update to enable M-Card functionality (not interactivity) on the S3?


From the TiVo Forum S3 FAQ:

Can I use one Mutli-Stream CableCARD, or M-Card?

No. While the Viewer's Guide has the following on page 102: "Note: A single multi-stream CableCARD decoder installed in the bottom slot on the back of the DVR enables dual tuner functionality.", this is incorrect! I spoke with Bob Poniatowski (aka TiVoPony) of TiVo by phone on Thursday, September 21st and he clarified that. He also later made a post at TiVoCommunity.com which contained the following:

Quote:
There is currently no certification process for multi-stream cards (MCARD) in uni-directional devices such as the Series3. We are tracking the creation of the certification for this very closely and will work with CableLabs as this certification is finalized and becomes available. In the mean time, you will need two cable cards in your Series3 to enable dual tuner functionality (MCARDs in a uni-directional device act as SCARDs).

If I'm reading the above correctly, the last line from TiVoPony indicates that you can use an MCARD now....but it will only work in one direction just like an SCARD.

If I'm reading the above correctly, the last line from TiVoPony indicates that you can use an MCARD now....but it will only work in one direction just like an SCARD.
It will only work in S-Mode single stream mode. Working in M-Mode multi-stream mode will require an update from TiVo.

We've already established and are in agreement that working in one direction is not a function of the components in the S-Card or M-Card, rather is dependent on the mechanisms provided by the S3 to the S-Card or M-Card.

BTW the rumor is the 2nd CableLabs verification for the S3 here:
http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf

is for M-Card.

From the TiVo Forum S3 FAQ:

Can I use one Mutli-Stream CableCARD, or M-Card?

No. While the Viewer's Guide has the following on page 102: "Note: A single multi-stream CableCARD decoder installed in the bottom slot on the back of the DVR enables dual tuner functionality.", this is incorrect! I spoke with Bob Poniatowski (aka TiVoPony) of TiVo by phone on Thursday, September 21st and he clarified that. He also later made a post at TiVoCommunity.com which contained the following:

Quote:
There is currently no certification process for multi-stream cards (MCARD) in uni-directional devices such as the Series3. We are tracking the creation of the certification for this very closely and will work with CableLabs as this certification is finalized and becomes available. In the mean time, you will need two cable cards in your Series3 to enable dual tuner functionality (MCARDs in a uni-directional device act as SCARDs).

If I'm reading the above correctly, the last line from TiVoPony indicates that you can use an MCARD now....but it will only work in one direction just like an SCARD.

I believe that's correct.

However, let's put TiVoPony's quote into a bit more context. It was at the S3 launch (Sept 2006), which was prior to the M-Card verification process being created by the NCTA/CableLabs (late 2006), and TiVo having the S3 "verified" to work with M-Cards (March 2007).

Bottom line : much has changed concerning TiVo and M-Cards since that quote.

We get a lot of power glitches here in South Florida, and I was thinking of putting our Series 3 on a UPS.

Does anyone here know the unit's power requirements in watts?

Thanks,

Dawn

We get a lot of power glitches here in South Florida, and I was thinking of putting our Series 3 on a UPS.

Does anyone here know the unit's power requirements in watts?

Thanks,

Dawn

Excellent decision.

From what I've read on line, the S3 draws 34 watts.

Another good reason to use a UPS is to avoid a power surge as well. Nothing worst then getting your hard disk fried.

I have a natural gas powered generator in case of power outages but I still use a UPS for my S3, that way if it's recording there is no loss of any recording. My recommendation is the APC X1500 X5. Some may think that's a bit much but if you do use a power generator it is adjustable so you can compensate for any kind of power difference created by the generator. It will keep it from going on, going off intermittently if a generator is being used.

Excellent decision.

From what I've read on line, the S3 draws 34 watts.
When I measured my S3 with Seagate 750GB DB35 it was 39watts. This was using kill-a-watt. It was 13watts less with the drive disconnected.

Thanks guys!

hey- does using a signal splitter have anything to do with cable cards going bad? I have a message that cable card 1 is receiving a firmware upgrade- this has been going on for nine days. Comcast is allegedly coming sometime (I hate those people but that's another story). I saw on the TiVo troubleshooting page that you should not split the signal. Is this really a problem?

hey- does using a signal splitter have anything to do with cable cards going bad? I have a message that cable card 1 is receiving a firmware upgrade- this has been going on for nine days. Comcast is allegedly coming sometime (I hate those people but that's another story). I saw on the TiVo troubleshooting page that you should not split the signal. Is this really a problem?

Could be. If your signal level is already low in coming from the pole, a splitter will only serve to further diminish your signal quality. If your signal is of poor enough quality, it will really screw with your picture quality and communications to/from the head end.

If you can, put the S3 as close to the original feed coming from the street/pole and see if that clears things up. I also believe you can inspect the signal quality in the Diagnostics menu of the TiVo menus, and possibly even the CableCARD screens.

Could be. If your signal level is already low in coming from the pole, a splitter will only serve to further diminish your signal quality. If your signal is of poor enough quality, it will really screw with your picture quality and communications to/from the head end.

If you can, put the S3 as close to the original feed coming from the street/pole and see if that clears things up. I also believe you can inspect the signal quality in the Diagnostics menu of the TiVo menus, and possibly even the CableCARD screens.


I agree with Paul but I think Comcrap should come out and do a signal check on all your connections, where you have splitters all the way out to the box. If they are not getting the proper signal they have boosters that they will supply at no charge to you to make sure you are getting a proper signal.

I agree with Paul but I think Comcrap should come out and do a signal check on all your connections, where you have splitters all the way out to the box. If they are not getting the proper signal they have boosters that they will supply at no charge to you to make sure you are getting a proper signal.

Yup. From the sounds of it, he's already got a sketchy signal. He'll definitely wanna have a tech come out and scope it out. If there's something wrong, the tech (or another one in a future visit) can swap out the offending line, splitter, box, etc to make things right.

Boosters aren't always a panacea, though. Keep in mind that they're amplifying the crap on the line as well as the signal. YMMV.

Thanks to all. I took the cable cards out and reformatted the TiVo to receive analog channels so at least I can use it and it appears I cant check the signal strength since I'm not getting any digital channels. I'll get the cable guy to check it if he ever comes (Comcast is the antichrist).

Thanks to all. I took the cable cards out and reformatted the TiVo to receive analog channels so at least I can use it and it appears I cant check the signal strength since I'm not getting any digital channels. I'll get the cable guy to check it if he ever comes (Comcast is the antichrist).

Don't rely on what TiVo tells you are the signal strengths. Comcast techs have the equipment to see what's really going on. Have them check it for you. Insist upon it. :)

Comcast, nor any other cable company is the anti christ. They are a group of terrorist cells. If you give in, the terrorist win.

Will do- thanks.

Comcast, nor any other cable company is the anti christ. They are a group of terrorist cells. If you give in, the terrorist win. :confused:

:confused:


It's a joke. Not to be taken seriously. ;)

It's a joke. Not to be taken seriously. ;)It wasn't funny.

It wasn't funny.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah, it was.


Thanks Paul. Look optivity just because I got a little hot about one of your post doesn't mean that I want to have a fight with you. If anything I want to get along with you, I think you are a pretty knowledgeable person. I said what I said and you responded. Let it go, I did.

Or do you work for the cable company.. :D :D :D (that's a joke too).

To be fair, you didn't include a smiley on the line of your message where you discussed terrorism. Joking about terrorism is hazardous to start with, but not clearly labeling a joke about terrorism as a joke -- well I can sympathize with anyone who got upset about it.

I think equating a cable company as a terrorist organization is generally understood as a joke. No emoticon necassary.

Thanks Paul. Look optivity just because I got a little hot about one of your post doesn't mean that I want to have a fight with you. If anything I want to get along with you, I think you are a pretty knowledgeable person. I said what I said and you responded. Let it go, I did.

Or do you work for the cable company.. :D :D :D (that's a joke too).No, but I have two cousins who do and they appear to make a pretty good living. :rolleyes:

I grew up in a very different America then what it is like here today :( so I take the threat of terrorism more seriously than most other people I know and you managed to hit a nerve.

After all, how much does it cost to add an emoticon? Are we running out of them? :D

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzequg9f/emoticon.jpg

After all, how much does it cost to add an emoticon? Are we running out of them? :D

I am from the planet Vulcan. I have no emotions.



Well, actually I'm half human and it's a constant battle. I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Hey, I just bought a Tivo Series 3 even though it was way more than I needed to spend on yet another piece of AV equipment.

I was tired of not being able to view HD without jumping through hoops, and my old series 2 simply can't do HD.

I have a question on channel scan. Tivo thinks I get Denver stations...I don't (CO Springs is over 60 miles away from Denver.) I thought Channel Scan would resolve the disrepency, but that did not seem to work. Why would channel scan not delete channels with no signal strength?

(I did manually remove them in the channel list, but I was expecting channel scan to do the work for me.)

That's OK... I live in the Denver area and my S3 thinks I can pick up Colorado Springs channels. :)

Seriously, just delete the stations you don't receive from the list and it's the last time you'll have to deal with it.

Hey, I just bought a Tivo Series 3 even though it was way more than I needed to spend on yet another piece of AV equipment.

I was tired of not being able to view HD without jumping through hoops, and my old series 2 simply can't do HD.

I have a question on channel scan. Tivo thinks I get Denver stations...I don't (CO Springs is over 60 miles away from Denver.) I thought Channel Scan would resolve the disrepency, but that did not seem to work. Why would channel scan not delete channels with no signal strength?

(I did manually remove them in the channel list, but I was expecting channel scan to do the work for me.)This is a common "problem" with the S3. It lists a LOT of channels I cannot pickup. But I'd rather have it err that way than the other (not listing channels I DO pick up).

..........
(I did manually remove them in the channel list, but I was expecting channel scan to do the work for me.)
After the scan is complete the Tivo should place an asterisk next to any channel it can't find.

That's OK... I live in the Denver area and my S3 thinks I can pick up Colorado Springs channels. :)

Seriously, just delete the stations you don't receive from the list and it's the last time you'll have to deal with it.

I live in Salt Lake City, and my S3 thinks I can get Grand Junction CO channels.
As well as some Idaho Falls channels and somewhere in Wyoming (I forget exactly where)

I remove them from the list, and as soon as my S3 tunes to that channel it adds it back in.

For Instance:
TiVo says I have 2 channel 4's. KTVX the local ABC affiliate, and KFQX, a FOX affiliate in Colorado Springs.
I removed the Colorado channel from channels I receive.
As soon as a Season Pass tunes to my channel 4 to record something, TiVo puts the other channel 4 back into the list.

This is repeated for channels 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13 and 14 etc, all the way through 68.
Duplicate channels with different network or syndicated programming.
As far as TiVo is concerned, pretty much all my channel numbers are in use and have programming.
I am only hooked to a rooftop antenna, and TiVo knows this.

This made for some interesting crapshoot Suggestions recordings until I turned Suggestions off.

I've been too quick on the trigger setting up Season Passes as well, and ended up picking the wrong channel and missing shows.

TiVo needs to understand that it is physically impossible to receive 2 different channel 4's from an antenna, let alone from over 500 miles away.

I've tried submitting channel lineups, but I guess it flies right over their heads.


Jerry

I live in Salt Lake City, and my S3 thinks I can get Grand Junction CO channels.
As well as some Idaho Falls channels and somewhere in Wyoming (I forget exactly where)

I remove them from the list, and as soon as my S3 tunes to that channel it adds it back in.

For Instance:
TiVo says I have 2 channel 4's. KTVX the local ABC affiliate, and KFQX, a FOX affiliate in Colorado Springs.
I removed the Colorado channel from channels I receive.
As soon as a Season Pass tunes to my channel 4 to record something, TiVo puts the other channel 4 back into the list.

This is repeated for channels 3, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13 and 14 etc, all the way through 68.
Duplicate channels with different network or syndicated programming.
As far as TiVo is concerned, pretty much all my channel numbers are in use and have programming.
I am only hooked to a rooftop antenna, and TiVo knows this.

This made for some interesting crapshoot Suggestions recordings until I turned Suggestions off.

I've been too quick on the trigger setting up Season Passes as well, and ended up picking the wrong channel and missing shows.

TiVo needs to understand that it is physically impossible to receive 2 different channel 4's from an antenna, let alone from over 500 miles away.

I've tried submitting channel lineups, but I guess it flies right over their heads.


Jerry


Since I don't use OTA I can't claim to having the problems you and others have experienced, but I see where in your case it would be particularly annoying.

When you submit a line up problem to TiVo you should get an email with a case number. I've had a couple of things happen with my line up and at first I felt ignored but pursued it. In both cases TiVo fixed the problem.

Now maybe you have pursued it and nothing happened. I say to you don't give up stay on them no matter how time consuming and aggrivating it is. They should be able to get your information correctly, I don't know how it works with OTA but I know that Tribune Media holds the channel line up in their hands. I assume they do for OTA as well. Keep on them until they fix your problem. And good luck.

TiVo "Lite" coming soon? (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tivo-hd-dvr-is-the-newest-series3-tivotogo-coming-back/)....more info-possibly tomorrow-here. (http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/07/23/whats-happening-11/)

TiVo "Lite" coming soon? (http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/23/tivo-hd-dvr-is-the-newest-series3-tivotogo-coming-back/)....more info-possibly tomorrow-here. (http://hdtivo.wordpress.com/2007/07/23/whats-happening-11/)

Maybe I misread the Engadget article but when they were talking about eSATA were they referring to the New HD TiVo or to the S3? I've already got eSATA on my S3.

Maybe I misread the Engadget article but when they were talking about eSATA were they referring to the New HD TiVo or to the S3? I've already got eSATA on my S3.Yeah, I was confused about that too. Then, an AP tech writer (http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6443985) said that eSata "would come later"....same crap TiVo's been dishing out since the S3 was released.

I wonder what he meant in the article when he said lower quality audio and video, not THX certified(?) or real visual and audio differences than the S3?

Never mind, lost the end of the sentence on the word wrap-no THX certification.

Yeah, I was confused about that too. Then, an AP tech writer (http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6443985) said that eSata "would come later"....same crap TiVo's been dishing out since the S3 was released.

That article seems to indicate it's related to the new HD TiVo.

I wonder what he meant in the article when he said lower quality audio and video, not THX certified(?) or real visual and audio differences than the S3?

Never mind, lost the end of the sentence on the word wrap-no THX certification.


I'm sure that's a topic that will be well debated. Let's just put it this way. The THX Certification isn't just a piece of paper that TiVo payed to get permission to use. To get the certification the DVR has to meet certain required specifications. Now what exactly those certifications are, I do not have a clue. But I can state, and others have debated this as well, that I see a clear and definite difference in pq qualilty, not so much in HD but definitely in SD and digital recordings then I had with the SA 8300.

Of course the SA 8300 had that peculiar notion of not wanting to record HD recordings, or only give me partials but I doubt THX certification had anything to do with that. :D

Yeah, I was confused about that too. Then, an AP tech writer (http://www.elpasotimes.com/entertainment/ci_6443985) said that eSata "would come later"....same crap TiVo's been dishing out since the S3 was released.

I'm not going to give an unknown "AP tech writer" all that much credit concerning all things TiVo. He was probably spoon-fed a PR one-sheet with a few factoids and told to whip up an article on the release of the "TiVo HD".

You'd have to assume that both the S3 and TiVoHD share the same code base, at 8.3.1 or perhaps something a little further along. They're nearly identical from a hardware perspective. I'd have to believe that once eSATA got turned up for one, the other one would get it as well.

What was more intriguing for me was the mention of TiVo To Go coming very shortly. This might get me one of my most wanted features, TiVo To Come Back, so I could stream video from my PC to my S3. Very exciting stuff...

How's TTG and gonna work? Moving anything marked Copy One Generation off the unit is a violation of the DFAST license. Of course, nothing in core basic cable may be transmitted as anything other than Copy Freely, so all of that should be transferrable, which all by itself would have considerable value.

What's your source for this information, bfdtv?

michael,

Official details @ Tivo.com and Engadget.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/24/qanda-with-tivos-jim-denney-about-tivo-hd/

As before, look for some of the missing features in a Fall 2007 update.

Unlike the Series3, the HD will have out of the box M-Card (multi-stream CableCARD) compatibility. ;)
eSATA will launch deactivated. "We hope to activate it some time later," but when he would not say. Same with the external drive TiVo's obviously going to sell for the thing. :rolleyes:
TiVoToGo and multi-room viewing "will not be released with the HD," but TiVo is actively working on restoring functionality, which will come to the Series3 shortly before HD. :rolleyes:
TiVo is also working to ensure TiVoToGo will not be resolution-restricted, only copy-flag restricted. (Read: TiVoToGo will work for SD and HD content.) :)

;)
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:)

A little comment besides just an emotion would make your post a bit easier to understand.

Unlike the Series3, the HD will have out of the box M-Card (multi-stream CableCARD) compatibility.

eSATA will launch deactivated. "We hope to activate it some time later," but when he would not say. Same with the external drive TiVo's obviously going to sell for the thing.

TiVoToGo and multi-room viewing "will not be released with the HD," but TiVo is actively working on restoring functionality, which will come to the Series3 shortly before HD.

TiVo is also working to ensure TiVoToGo will not be resolution-restricted, only copy-flag restricted. (Read: TiVoToGo will work for SD and HD content.)
)


Since the TiVoHD is running version 8.1.7 of the TiVo software, you can only assume that the Series3 will become M-Card capable once the TiVoHD's firmware is merged back into the current TiVo software (which now sits at 8.3.1).

eSATA is confirmed to be enabled in this year's Autumn software update by TiVo.

TTG/MRV are also confirmed to be coming later this year. Details concerning exactly how these features will be altered in light of CableLabs restrictions remains to be seen.


On the whole, I see this as VERY positive for TiVo. The lower price point will certainly entice more buyers than the big-ticket Series3 did. M-Card support is here, and eSATA and TTG/TTCB/MRV are on the way.

Since the TiVoHD is running version 8.1.7 of the TiVo software, you can only assume that the Series3 will become M-Card capable once the TiVoHD's firmware is merged back into the current TiVo software (which now sits at 8.3.1).It not might be quite that simple.

In the TivoHD, Tivo is using entirely new tuners and an entirely new CableCard interface. It sounds like that cut their costs, but it will also creates some support differences between the two platforms. The driver / software to support MCARD on the TivoHD differs from what the Series3 will require.

I would think if the new interfaces are cheaper than they probably can't do as much as the more expensive ones in the S3. If the cheap ones are capable of X then I'd guess that the better ones will eventually be able to do the same job with the proper SW update.

I would think if the new interfaces are cheaper than they probably can't do as much as the more expensive ones in the S3. If the cheap ones are capable of X then I'd guess that the better ones will eventually be able to do the same job with the proper SW update.

It's kind of like speculating what a new car that GM or Ford is coming out with. While we have some basic facts the true results won't be known until you get in that baby and take it for a test ride.

I would like to agree with the above, I would sure hate to think my S3 is going to be in anyway inferior to the low budget model. I guess we will find out soon. Meanwhile, please continue with the speculation.

It not might be quite that simple.

In the TivoHD, Tivo is using entirely new tuners and an entirely new CableCard interface. It sounds like that cut their costs, but it will also creates some support differences between the two platforms. The driver / software to support MCARD on the TivoHD differs from what the Series3 will require.


Yeah, you're right. I posted that before everyone figured out that the VIXS chip was handling the CableCARD duties, which differs from the S3 platform. The new chip will certainly require different drivers, so it won't be a cut-n-paste merge from the TiVoHD codebase to the S3 codebase.

...I would sure hate to think my S3 is going to be in anyway inferior to the low budget model. I guess we will find out soon. ...I'd say that's not gonna happen. It will simply be an older, more feature-laden model. Older in some technological ways, but still more features that TiVo Lite.

I updated the post above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11109089&&#post11109089) with TivoHD advantages and disadvantages relative to the Series3.

Since the TiVoHD is running version 8.1.7 of the TiVo software, you can only assume that the Series3 will become M-Card capable once the TiVoHD's firmware is merged back into the current TiVo software (which now sits at 8.3.1)."Since the TiVoHD is running version 8.1.7 of the TiVo software, you can only hope that the Series3 will become M-Card capable once the TiVoHD's firmware is merged back into the current TiVo software (which now sits at 8.3.1)." ;)

I updated the post above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11109089&&#post11109089) with TivoHD advantages and disadvantages relative to the Series3.

Thanks. Now I'm suffering from buyers remorse. :o

Truthfully even if I had known that such an animal would exist in about 9 months from when I bought my S3, I still would have done it. I had a whole season of not worrying about missed recordings, partials, etc.

But I do find myself a bit envious.

One question and this is to anyone who wants to answer. I still don't get the deal of the M card. What difference does it make since the S3 only does one way communication? And I thought I already pointed out that the FAQ's says the M card will work currently.

I still don't get the deal of the M card.
I think the M-Card would enable the DVR to record two shows simultaneously, where otherwise you would need two cablecards installed in the S3 for this to be possible.

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference with the MCard is multistream support. It can decode more than one video stream at a time (not sure of how many, although in this case only two are needed), making only one cable card device necessary instead of two.

Randy

One question and this is to anyone who wants to answer. I still don't get the deal of the M card. What difference does it make since the S3 only does one way communication? And I thought I already pointed out that the FAQ's says the M card will work currently.The Tivo Series3 already works with MCARDs, but it treats them as standard CableCards. It doesn't support the main 'feature' of MCARDS -- multistream.

The TivoHD does support MCARD's multistream from release. That eliminates the need for a second CableCard. You only need one MCARD to support both tuners. You may not care if you get both CableCards for free, but if you are paying extra for the second one, MCARD support would save you money (provided you can get one from your cable company).

Motorola no longer manufacturers or ships the older CableCards. All new card shipments since April are of MCARDs. Even if your cable provider doesn't have MCARD stock now, they will at some point as they order more units.

Tivo had been silent on MCARD support for the Series3 for quite some time. However, they've told TivoHD testers in the past week that the Series3 would get an update with MCARD support later this year. Hence, that TivoHD "advantage" should only last a few months.

Note the MCARD support in the TivoHD isn't directly portable to the Series3, because those products use completely different OpenCable interface chips. The MCARD "driver" for the TivoHD is not compatible with the Series3.

The TivoHD and Series3 HD do use nearly identical MIPS CPUs from Broadcom, so most code should be portable. The main software differences will be in the drivers for the OpenCable interface, MPEG encoders, etc.

Thanks. Now I'm suffering from buyers remorse. :o

Truthfully even if I had known that such an animal would exist in about 9 months from when I bought my S3, I still would have done it. I had a whole season of not worrying about missed recordings, partials, etc.

But I do find myself a bit envious.

One question and this is to anyone who wants to answer. I still don't get the deal of the M card. What difference does it make since the S3 only does one way communication? And I thought I already pointed out that the FAQ's says the M card will work currently.The M-Card is backward compatible with the TiVo S3, which has two one-way CableCARD slots that were never intended to support two-way OCAP communications protocol for digital video/audio content authorization and because of a:

“mandate from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) that will ban MSOs from buying and deploying set-tops with integrated security. That ban comes into effect July 1, 2007 ( http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=124953).”

begat ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/begat) a TiVo HD DVR ( http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=608554) for $299.99 :eek:

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference with the MCard is multistream support. It can decode more than one video stream at a time (not sure of how many, although in this case only two are needed), making only one cable card device necessary instead of two.

Randy

That's my understanding as well.

I called Comcast today and asked if I bought a TiVo HD, would I be able to still view On Demand and PPV, and the CSR said he received an email recently that said they have a new cablecard that TiVo started testing within the last week, that he believes will enable OD and PPV (but was careful to say he wasn't sure).

Then I called TiVo and the CSR (who honestly seemed clueless, but could be correct), said the new TiVo HD will not be capable of viewing OD or PPV on Comcast.

The Tivo Series3 already works with MCARDs, but it treats them as standard CableCards. It doesn't support the main 'feature' of MCARDS -- multistream.

The TivoHD does support MCARD from release. that eliminates the need for a second CableCard. You only need one MCARD to support both tuners. You may not care if you get both CableCards for free, but if you are paying extra for the second one, MCARD support would save you money (provided you can get one from your cable company).

Motorola no longer manufacturers or ships the older CableCards. All new card shipments since April are of MCARDs. Even if your cable provider doesn't have MCARD stock now, they will at some point as they order more units.

Tivo had been silent on MCARD support for the Series3 for quite some time. However, they've told TivoHD testers in the past week that the Series3 would get an update with MCARD support later this year. Hence, that TivoHD "advantage" should only last a few months.

Note the MCARD support in the TivoHD isn't directly portable to the Series3, because those products use completely different OpenCable interface chips. The MCARD "driver" for the TivoHD is not compatible with the Series3.

The TivoHD and Series3 HD do use nearly identical MIPS CPUs from Broadcom, so most code should be portable. The main software differences will be in the drivers for the OpenCable interface, MPEG encoders, etc.

I got it. Thanks for the clear explanation. But knowing TW wouldn't they just double the price? ;)

I got it. Thanks for the clear explanation. indeed bfdtv ;)

That's my understanding as well.

I called Comcast today and asked if I bought a TiVo HD, would I be able to still view On Demand and PPV, and the CSR said he received an email recently that said they have a new cablecard that TiVo started testing within the last week, that he believes will enable OD and PPV (but was careful to say he wasn't sure).

Then I called TiVo and the CSR (who honestly seemed clueless, but could be correct), said the new TiVo HD will not be capable of viewing OD or PPV on Comcast.

A cable CSR having information on something that hasn't been released yet? Impossible. It usually takes at least 3 months after the release. ;)

The TiVo CSR doesn't know what he/she is talking about either. Now they could probably tell you what day it is, what time they get off work, they might even remember there address but I think that's the limit on TiVo CSR's level one knowledge.

Once I called and asked about what kind of wireless adapter I could use with the S3 (shortly after release). I was told that there wasn't any available yet. :p

The M-Card is backward compatible with the TiVo S3, which has two one-way CableCARD slots that were never intended to support two-way OCAP communications protocol for digital video/audio content authorization and because of a:

“mandate from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) that will ban MSOs from buying and deploying set-tops with integrated security. That ban comes into effect July 1, 2007 ( http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=124953).”

begat ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/begat) a TiVo HD DVR ( http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=608554) for $299.99 :eek:

You gotta stop dropping the acid before you post, dude... You're becoming incoherent.

TiVo is precluded from providing two-way support with the CableCARDs. The only option available to them, via their CableLabs licensing agreement, is unidirectional access. Which, by definition, precludes VOD and PPV.

The TiVo S3 currently supports the M-Card as a single tuner module, with promises of enabling dual-tuner functionality by end of year 2007. The TiVoHD is shipping with dual-tuner M-Card support out of the gate. Neither can support bi-directional access (PPV and VOD) per their agreements with CableLabs.

Please, try to understand this before posting more incoherent mumblings...

Okay, I know that I should know the answer to this, but if you buy either of these boxes to use for OTA only, you can record two OTA HD streams at once, correct? I feel pretty sure that is the case, but I remember something about only having one cablecard installed disables a tuner, etc., and I just want to make sure I'm clear on it. I'm considering dumping cable and going satellite so I can diplex the signals down my existing coax so I can mount an antenna in the attic for OTA. I'd get a satellite DVR and the TiVo...combine that with a direct OTA feed into the TV and I think that would be a pretty flexible setup...and probably not much more, if any, than I'm paying for cable now, even with a fairly hefty discount. Then I wouldn't have to worry whether or not the whole SDV thing is going to rear its ugly head...

I did a search but after wading through several potential answers I decided it was worth taking my beating to just ask the question.... :p

Thanks,
Randy

Okay, I know that I should know the answer to this, but if you buy either of these boxes to use for OTA only, you can record two OTA HD streams at once, correct?That's correct.

lmao I got my S3 little under a month from now.... wonder what I should do....

That's correct.
In fact, I have no cable service at all, I use my S3 only for OTA HD recording.

Being able to record two channels at once comes in very handy at many points during the TV season. :D

Somebody correct me if I am wrong, but the only real difference with the MCard is multistream support. It can decode more than one video stream at a time (not sure of how many, although in this case only two are needed), making only one cable card device necessary instead of two.

RandyAbsolutely correct.

"you can only hope that the Series3 will become M-Card capableWho cares? Is saving the rental cost of one CableCARD really such a big deal to you?

I still don't get the deal of the M card. What difference does it make since the S3 only does one way communication?I thought we straightened all this out a few pages back when you assured me you understood this, and that you and I just had a communication problem. For crying out loud...M-Cards have nothing to do with 2-way communication. How much plainer can we make this, folks? The "difference it makes" is you only have to rent 1 from the cable company instead of 2. Period.

The M-Card is backward compatible with the TiVo S3, which has two one-way CableCARD slots that were never intended to support two-way OCAP communications protocol for digital video/audio content authorization and because of a:

“mandate from the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) that will ban MSOs from buying and deploying set-tops with integrated security. That ban comes into effect July 1, 2007 ( http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=124953).”

begat ( http://www.thefreedictionary.com/begat) a TiVo HD DVR ( http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=608554) for $299.99 :eek:I can no longer even follow optivity's posts or understand his points. Is he being purposefully obtuse? Spreading FUD? Does he work for a cable company? :)

This post strings together several completely unrelated things, in an attempt to make a point I can't fathom. It makes no sense.

I thought we straightened all this out a few pages back when you assured me you understood this, and that you and I just had a communication problem. For crying out loud...M-Cards have nothing to do with 2-way communication. How much plainer can we make this, folks? The "difference it makes" is you only have to rent 1 from the cable company instead of 2. Period.

Did I also read somewhere that they weren't even making S-Cards any more ? Might have been only one of the manufacturers (Moto or SA), but I remember reading something about that somewhere...

It would be kind of important to support M-Cards if that was the only flavor that was available.

I got the TiVo monthly newsletter this morning for those of you who didn't you can click here and get a list of FAQ'S (http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/faqs/index.html#17) that will answer or confirm many of the things we have discussed. It seems to indicate that the new HD TiVo will not offer two way communication and even though they say "yet" IMHO I doubt it will. No mention about the M card.

I thought we straightened all this out a few pages back when you assured me you understood this, and that you and I just had a communication problem. For crying out loud...M-Cards have nothing to do with 2-way communication. How much plainer can we make this, folks? The "difference it makes" is you only have to rent 1 from the cable company instead of 2. Period.


Hey. I get confused easily. Lighten up, I'm not the brightest bulb in the closet on the card matters. :o

Did you not see the post where I said "I get it"? That was just a few posts back.

I can no longer even follow optivity's posts or understand his points. Is he being purposefully obtuse? Spreading FUD? Does he work for a cable company? :)

This post strings together several completely unrelated things, in an attempt to make a point I can't fathom. It makes no sense.I'll try & get straight to the point...

The million $ (?) is:

Will the S3 be able to receive cable tv programming being distributed using SDV networking?

The million $ answer is:

UNKNOWN.

The hardware is not setup for 2-way communication, however some have speculated that a workaround may be developed using the internet via the boxes ethernet port. Whether that will actually work is anyone's guess.

Time to start the same 3 or 4 arguements over again for another 10 pages!

Thanks for the confirmation on the OTA recording, all. I felt sure that was the case, but wanted to be sure before getting too optimistic about possibly having come up with the right combination for my situation.

Randy

The million $ answer is:

UNKNOWN.

The hardware is not setup for 2-way communication, however some have speculated that a workaround may be developed using the internet via the boxes ethernet port. Whether that will actually work is anyone's guess.Knowing how quickly HDTV delivery standards (e.g. SDV) & consumer electronic equipment connections/features change is what drove my decision to pass on the opportunity to purchase a $799.99 300-hour TiVo® Series3™ HD DVR (https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do), and now that TiVo has announced they are releasing a HD DVR for $299.99 (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=608554), :eek: I'm glad I did.

Knowing how quickly HDTV delivery standards (e.g. SDV) & consumer electronic equipment connections/features change is what drove my decision to pass on the opportunity to purchase a $799.99 300-hour TiVo® Series3™ HD DVR (https://www3.tivo.com/store/boxes.do), and now that TiVo has announced they are releasing a HD DVR for $299.99 (http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=608554), :eek: I'm glad I did.


Once again pointing out to us just how much smarter you are then the rest of us peasants. :rolleyes:

I removed the TivoHD specifications from the previous page. Updated version below:

Official TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160) Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS SATA hard drive
2x ATI Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators (for tuners)
2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs
1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T) CableCard interface
MP@ML encoders
MPEG-2 HD->MPEG-2 SD and MPEG-2 SD->MPEG-2 SD transcoders
MPEG-2 HD->MPEG-4 SD and MPEG-2 SD->MPEG-4 SD transcoders
Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller
Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA
Smaller, lower-cost PCB (no PCI slots)
Cheaper power supply
No THX certification
No OLED display
Standard Tivo remote
$299 MSRP

TivoHD Advantages MSRP is $500 less ($299 vs $799)
TivoHD has ~7% faster CPU (450 MIPS vs 420 MIPS)
TivoHD has twice the system memory (256MB vs 128MB)
Supports MCARDs out of the box (eliminates need for second CableCard to support dual-tuners with digital cable).
Newer QAM/VSB demodulation chips for potentially improved OTA reception.
New, dedicated hardware for MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 SD->SD and HD->SD transcoding Could allow HD->SD MRV with older Series2 Tivos
Could allow TivoToGo and MRV to support content flagged as "copy one generation" (via downres)
Could allow Tivo to use TivoToGo and MRV to record and stream content for which they cannot obtain Cable Labs approval to pass (via down-res)
Could allow place-shifting like Slingbox (thanks megazone)
Real-time transcoding could eliminate the need to do it in software, reducing the licensing fees for the Tivo Desktop software.
Consumes less power.

TivoHD Disadvantages No lifetime transfers.
Smaller hard drive (160GB vs 250GB).
eSATA expansion is not yet functional (Kickstart 62 method does not work). Functional eSATA is coming "late 2007." (http://www.tivo.com/whatistivo/tivohd/productspecifications/index.html)
No THX certification.
No piano black enclosure with OLED display.
No slick, learning remote (sold separately for $50).
No bundled HDMI cable.
Drivers for new components potentially less mature / optimized.
Potentially slower disk I/O, which may hurt responsiveness.
The Broadcom BCM7401 in the TivoHD has a single 1.5Gbps SATA channel that is "split" for the internal SATA and eSATA connections using the Silicon Image SiI5723. In contrast, the BCM7038 in the Series3 had a dual-channel SATA controller, so no "splitting" was required. This may negatively impact disk I/O when both internal and eSATA drives are used, and Tivo responsiveness is highly dependent on disk I/O. The SiI5723 does support several RAID modes that could potentially improve random I/O.

Who cares? Is saving the rental cost of one CableCARD really such a big deal to you?

It would be a big deal for me. My cable company does not rent cable cards, they charge $150 a piece for them. Luckily I have the OTA option.
My luck they would probably charge $300 for one M-card! :)

I would be a big deal for me. My cable company does not rent cable cards, they charge $150 a piece for them. Luckily I have the OTA option.
My luck they would probably charge $300 for one M-card! :)
That’s horrible! I had never before heard of a cable company doing that. Most of them charge an extortionate installation fee for CableCARDs but that’s usually no more that $50. My installation fee from Cox OKC was $35 and I pay only $3.98 a month for the cards. By substituting the two cards for the SA8300HD DVR that I had been renting from Cox my cable bill went down $10 a month.

Sure it wasn't $1.50, which you misread/misheard as being $150? Just asking.. $1.50 is a not uncommon amount I've seen discussed before, in terms of rental charges for cable cards for some cable companies/areas of the country.

Sure it wasn't $1.50, which you misread/misheard as being $150? Just asking.. $1.50 is a not uncommon amount I've seen discussed before, in terms of rental charges for cable cards for some cable companies/areas of the country.

I was told over the phone that they DO NOT rent cable cards. They do offer them, but I would need to purchase them at $150 each. They would be mine to own. :eek:
This was 5-6 months ago, so maybe they have changed their policy since then. I'll have to check back. They are a smaller cable company and are usually behind in their offerings compared to the big guys like Comcast. On the flip side they are cheaper than Comcast on most of their services and have local CSRs who are usually pleasant and very willing to help their customers)!

Who cares? Is saving the rental cost of one CableCARD really such a big deal to you?

I have to say, it is for me. It kind of makes me mad that Tivo released TivoHD with M-Card support without including it in an update for the S3. So now, not only is does the S3 have a higher price tag but it costs more to own. For me, the extra CC rental is 5.99 per month (plus tax) and the installation fee is $19.99 (plus tax). In other words, the MSRP for a S3 is $500 more than the TivoHD plus another $100 in the first year in operating costs! :mad:

I was told over the phone that they DO NOT rent cable cards. They do offer them, but I would need to purchase them at $150 each. They would be mine to own. :eek:
This was 5-6 months ago, so maybe they have changed their policy since then. I'll have to check back. They are a smaller cable company and are usually behind in their offerings compared to the big guys like Comcast. On the flip side they are cheaper than Comcast on most of their services and have local CSRs who are usually pleasant and very willing to help their customers)!


If you were told this by a CSR and you never called back again I'd call again. I've never seen anyone talk about purchasing a cable card.

BTW, I'm curious. What cable company is this?

I've heard of some smaller companies selling the CC instead of renting it, and I think they are fully within the regs to do so depending on size, competition, etc.

Hey. I get confused easily. Lighten up, I'm not the brightest bulb in the closet on the card matters. :o

Did you not see the post where I said "I get it"? That was just a few posts back.Sorry...it just gets frustrating to continue seeing M-Cards and 2-Way Communication in the same sentence. :) I'll try to be less grouchy about it. :)

I have to say, it is for me. It kind of makes me mad that Tivo released TivoHD with M-Card support without including it in an update for the S3. So now, not only is does the S3 have a higher price tag but it costs more to own. For me, the extra CC rental is 5.99 per month (plus tax) and the installation fee is $19.99 (plus tax). In other words, the MSRP for a S3 is $500 more than the TivoHD plus another $100 in the first year in operating costs! :mad:Fair enough! And if I was getting charged $150 like dwis67, it would probably be a big deal for me, too. However, I don't think optivity's desire for M-Card support was solely to save the rental cost of one card...to be honest I still don't understand his interest in M-Cards...

It would be kind of important to support M-Cards if that was the only flavor that was available.M-Cards will always revert back to legacy S-Card mode when inserted into a host device that only supports S-Cards. So in effect, every host device ever made "supports" M-Cards...but only newer hosts can make use of the full M-Card functionality.

Once again pointing out to us just how much smarter you are then the rest of us peasants. :rolleyes:Your spin not mine. I made a $5400 investment into one-way CableCARD technology. Generally people learn from their mistakes.

I called Comcast today and asked if I bought a TiVo HD, would I be able to still view On Demand and PPV, and the CSR said he received an email recently that said they have a new cablecard that TiVo started testing within the last week, that he believes will enable OD and PPV (but was careful to say he wasn't sure).


I'd guess the Comcast CSR was confusing the TiVo HD with the project to provide TiVo software on Comcast DVRs (which will provide OD and PPV) and then misinterpreting an email regarding cablecards.

If you were told this by a CSR and you never called back again I'd call again. I've never seen anyone talk about purchasing a cable card.

BTW, I'm curious. What cable company is this?

It's Service Electric based out of Allentown, PA. I'm with one of their smaller offices in Birdsboro, PA. They always seem to lag behind in their service offerings compared to Allentown. The company's main web does show that you can buy the card for $125 or rent it for $2.95/month. My local office's website has no mention of cable card at all and Allentown has services that we don't have yet (such as telephone).
I'll have to call them again to see if they changed their policy since I talked to them last.

It's Service Electric based out of Allentown, PA. I'm with one of their smaller offices in Birdsboro, PA. They always seem to lag behind in their service offerings compared to Allentown. The company's main web does show that you can buy the card for $125 or rent it for $2.95/month. My local office's website has no mention of cable card at all and Allentown has services that we don't have yet (such as telephone).
I'll have to call them again to see if they changed their policy since I talked to them last.

Well, if it says so on the company web page and they still say no tell them to go the there computer and type www.etc.

They do have internet at the cable company don't they? :)

...The company's main web does show that you can buy the card for $125 or rent it for $2.95/month...Amidst all the wailing and gnashing of teeth here about this company's charging to buy a cablecard, it seems to me that, if the technology is stable, purchasing might not be a bad way to go. Kinda like TiVo's lifetime. At the rate quoted, it would break even at 42 months. I fully understand, however, that technology changes almost daily.

So now, not only is does the S3 have a higher price tag but it costs more to own. For me, the extra CC rental is 5.99 per month (plus tax) and the installation fee is $19.99 (plus tax). In other words, the MSRP for a S3 is $500 more than the TivoHD plus another $100 in the first year in operating costs! :mad:
I ran my numbers and they came out about the same as the foregoing but I bought an S3 anyway. If you already subscribe to a cable company’s HD services, including renting one of their HD DVRs, an S3 makes NO economic sense. Still, it’s a great product and I’m glad I bought mine, despite its extraordinarily high price.

By the time I added the cost of the S3, the cost to transfer an existing lifetime subscription to it, and the installation charge for the CableCARDs, I had spent a little more than $900. That’s not so bad, though, because buying an S3 caused my cable bill to come down $10 a month as a result of substituting two CableCARDs for the HD DVR I had been renting from Cox OKC. Thus, the cost of my TiVo and its attendant expenses will amortize in only 7.5 years. :)

Why is everyone on this thread complaining about money? This is a piece of high end electronics. Guess what? That costs money! You can always rent your cable company's POS STB and forget all about the benefits of TiVo.

Why is everyone on this thread complaining about money? This is a piece of high end electronics. Guess what? That costs money! You can always rent your cable company's POS STB and forget all about the benefits of TiVo.


There are certain people in this forum who really dislike the S3, probably truthfully because they are jealous that many of us have them so they try on a constant basis to speculate on what will happen in the S3's future, how dumb those of us who bought one are, and pat themselves on the back for being just so smart.

Yes the S3 is expensive, yes the new HD TiVo won't be as expensive, but I still don't regret spending the money on it. I would have liked to have gotten at a cheaper price but it was either spend the money or keep using illegal methods to download shows because the SA 8300 was so unreliable.

Why is everyone on this thread complaining about money? This is a piece of high end electronics. Guess what? That costs money! You can always rent your cable company's POS STB and forget all about the benefits of TiVo.I'm really getting tired of the moaning and groaning especially since the HD TiVo came out. And, if you think it's bad here, you should go over the TiVoCommunity fora. Sheesh. Whine, whine, whine. When I knew the S3 was in the works, I began saving my money. On Sept. 12, I ordered mine and paid with cash on the barrel head. Period. I pay $12.95/month, so I can't afford health care and will probably end up at the county hospital or nursing home. And, I don't use cablecards, but, if I ever do, I guess I'll have to eat peanut butter for the rest of my life to afford them :rolleyes: