As long as the source types are not hard-coded (ie. I might not be using DVD, Blu-Ray, or broadcast TV).
That's what the menu items "rename this profile", "delete this profile" and "create new profile" were meant for... :)

Jim,

One other request... please keep the feature like the 'ZT' command in the current boxes to print messages On Screen using the OSD of the Lumagen. From what I have seen only Lumagen has a feature like that.

I use that in my scaler integration boxes to basically create an On Screen Display for Lexicon pre-pros that don't even have video passing through them.

You can see that in action here:

http://switch-box.com/iweb/Movie%202.html

Thanks,

Shawn

jim:

Any chance of being able to do multi picture in picture in the future?

Jim,

I love your products, but...I've been writing device drivers and embedded software for over 20 years and I must say I find the documentation to be inscrutable w.r.t. these settings. The addition to the documentation of some common examples with diagrams would be a big help: steps performed and their effects in firmware. Doesn't have to be anything fancy; boxes and arrows would probably do it. Also, as mentioned by another poster, documenting whether a setting has global or local scope would be a big help.

Certainly we could add more details to the manual, but we think the key information is there. The indipendent output mode is perhaps the most complicated feature at least in part due to how flexible it is. We have been looking at adding a few drawing for better clarity, but I'm not sure when this would happen.

The global/local scope of settings is another area we should document better. I will see if we can get some of these documented over the next couple of weeks.

I understand your concern. But I think much depends on how intuitive things are to use. If things are hard to grasp without reading the manual, users will not understand the concept. But if you can manage to make things intuitive/self-explaining, I think users will understand such a concept with ease...


Thanks for your well considered ideas. Need a programming job? :)

I will take your ideas into consideration. We want to improve the Radiance user interface. It will have a better OSD and will allow for more information to be displayed on screen. I'm not sure we will change our user interface to profiles from our current memory structure, but it would certainly be a good choice to do so.

In part at least keeping close to what we have is due to limited resources. I think we need to take smaller steps in improving our user interface. We will be trying to make our user interface more visual, and I think your idea of being able to see and modify settings not currently active is possible as well. We also will have more extensive context sensitive on-screen help available via our new HELP button on the Radiance remote.

Thanks for the good ideas. We really do appreciate this kind of feedback and I will think about how much we can incorporate into the Radiance.

Jim,

One other request... please keep the feature like the 'ZT' command in the current boxes to print messages On Screen using the OSD of the Lumagen. From what I have seen only Lumagen has a feature like that.

We will be keeping this feature, as well as other installer friendly features such as RS232 command output strings on Lumagen power-up and standby.

jim:

Any chance of being able to do multi picture in picture in the future?

Sorry. No plans for this.

Thanks for your well considered ideas. Need a programming job? :)
Heh - thanks! But I already have a nice programming job... :)

I will take your ideas into consideration. We want to improve the Radiance user interface. It will have a better OSD and will allow for more information to be displayed on screen. I'm not sure we will change our user interface to profiles from our current memory structure, but it would certainly be a good choice to do so.

In part at least keeping close to what we have is due to limited resources. I think we need to take smaller steps in improving our user interface.
Thank you. That sounds reasonable. With almost any other company I'd be worried. But since your company has shown in the past that you're serious with constantly improving the firmware, your approach of making smaller steps sounds fine to me.

We also will have more extensive context sensitive on-screen help available via our new HELP button on the Radiance remote.
Cool - that's nice! :)

Is this the new HD 20 (might have the model number off a bit) HD TiVO recoder from Direct TV?

If so we should be able to get one for our testing. If not, please let me know the specifics of this HD TiVo as to make and model.

BTW: We have an FPGA that can process the video before and after it runs through the Gennum. This, I believe, is a huge advantage for us not shared by the competition. We develop our own algorithms on top of the video chip we use and so can fix problems, and add value in other ways. It remains to be seen what this problem is caused by, whether the GF9450 fixes the issue verses the GF9350, or if it is not a Gennum issue at all.

Jim -- this is the standalone HD TIVO recorder (Series 3) that works with 2 cable cards-- I have two COMCAST cards in mine right now to record and play HD programming.

Jim-- take a look at the typical image corruption that the CII has with TIVO S3. I posted it here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9312105&&#post9312105

Just to state my position.

I am in the AV business and get to play with all the toys. Little in the AV world excites me anymore.

BUT. The Radiance excites me. I want one in my system and it will stay there for a long time. It is the right piece, at the right price, by the right company. And in processor land, the company is the most important part. I have been waiting a long time for this piece. Delivery to me is probably quite away off, but I remain excited and want one badly. The great thing is that if bugs are discovered, they are quickly fixed, or additional features needed, they appear, without cost. JRP's continued presence here and open mindedness just reaffirm my decision.

Yes - now all they need is a competitive upgrade program, so I can get rid of my VP50 :D

Yes - now all they need is a competitive upgrade program, so I can get rid of my VP50 :D
I think that thought may cross the minds of quite a few VP50 owners.

Yes - now all they need is a competitive upgrade program, so I can get rid of my VP50 :D

Agreed. ;)

I thought I may add my 2 cents.
Lumagen has so far shown that they really understand what they are doing, and that they care about their customers. So I would say that I hardly understand the fuzz about new companies entering the processing market and expecting them to launch anything that even comes close to what Lumagen does. The only company that ever did that - was Lumagen. When I had their first Vision and tested it I could hardly believe that a new company could create such a perfect product for the HT market. However the reason for this was the know how of Jim Peterson collected druing his life as an enigineer and his understanding of his hobby - home theater.
Just like if a new company launches a car and says it will beat Porsche by any means. Bull*hit you cannot - this is the bottom line. So I would say with the Radiance I am pretty sure we will see a processor that will set the mark for many years, there is simply not much space up there. And who else than Lumagen will get the trust that the new 4000 bucks box is not just another video processor but the climax of adding Gennums technology with Lumagens propriety scaling and gamma correction. Prove me wrong I buy you one. :)

Quick question - will the "beta" version of the Radiance support 1080p/24sf output in its initial state, or will this be done in an update to the firmware?

Quick question - will the "beta" version of the Radiance support 1080p/24sf output in its initial state, or will this be done in an update to the firmware?

You getting one?

I do not think JRP knows exactly what will be in the first beta. Really doesn't matter. Like a good tomato sauce. It will be in there before the sauce is very far along.

Evaluating it for a new business venture at this point. Looking at it and a couple of others as well. 1080p/24sf is a personal need (as you know) and would like to be able to evaluate it here in my theater as opposed to one in the demo theater.

Yes - now all they need is a competitive upgrade program, so I can get rid of my VP50 :D

Hmmm. I was thinking of getting a VP50. (I downloaded the VP50 thread in RTF format . It's currently 1121 pages, so pardon me if my answer is in there somewhere.)

Anyway, I have an RP82-based DVD player with an SDI output. My projector has no digital input. I would need the two dongles for the XD to work in my existing environment. (Future plans call for a new PJ, but I'll keep the DVD player. I also understand that I'd have to get the SDI card for the VP50.)

What makes you existing VP50 owners want to trade in for the Lumagen? Thanks.

^^^^Agreed. I've had a VP50 from the beginning with zero problems. While I haven't read this entire thread yet I can't see anything that would make one want to dump the VP50 quickly for this unit.

Quick question - will the "beta" version of the Radiance support 1080p/24sf output in its initial state, or will this be done in an update to the firmware?

Uncertain at this point.

We will be using the Gennum's inverse telecine. It can output 24p. If this works as we expect it to, generating 24sF will not be hard. Still I cannot be sure when 24sF will be completed.

I am looking for 24sf as well. Thanks!

I suggest that one of the moderators change the title of this thread to refer to the RadianceXD (since the XG nomenclature no longer applies to the product).

What is the latest information regarding when this product will be released?

What's the time-frame for the SDI>HDMI convertors?

StooMonster

thread title was changed as requested.

Over and over. JRP has stated that the product will be released in non disclosure very limited quantity beta at first and then everything flows from what problems etc are discovered and the time needed to fix them. I think by Cedia we might see non beta sales.

Over and over. JRP has stated that the product will be released in non disclosure very limited quantity beta at first and then everything flows from what problems etc are discovered and the time needed to fix them. I think by Cedia we might see non beta sales.

CEDIA?

Damn. It was supposed to be Q1 originally. Then changed to Q2. Now you are saying Q3? :(

I've spoken with Jim about things and there were things out of their control which delayed beta greatly. In defense of them, they lost a lot of time which was not their fault. In addition, they are working to make sure this product is extremely good. In fact it should be one of the best, if not the best scaler out there.

Hang in there!

Richard

I've spoken with Jim about things and there were things out of their control which delayed beta greatly. In defense of them, they lost a lot of time which was not their fault. In addition, they are working to make sure this product is extremely good. In fact it should be one of the best, if not the best scaler out there.

Hang in there!

Richard

Thanks Richard.

I have a new JVC RS1 coming from AVS in the next 2-4 weeks, so I hope I can be patient enough and wait for the Radiance.

In addition, they are working to make sure this product is extremely good. In fact it should be one of the best, if not the best scaler out there.
Richard
After my positive experience with the HDQ I have no doubt the Radiance will be terrific. Only problem is, my HDQ performs so well I don't see a reason why I would upgrade to the Radiance. However, upgraditis will eventually set in - especially if spurred on by a generous trade-in program. :rolleyes:

We also are looking at a lower priced unit with fewer IO, and maybe not including audio (except HDMI would still pass audio of course). Since the video processing delay is much shorter than other video-processor units on the market, it is not really needed for the Raidnace. Also, most people using this level of processor have audio delay in their audio processor. No schedule/price/feature-list at this point as we are concentrating on the RadianceXD.

I, for one, would welcome this option. I only have 3 sources and no need for audio in a video processor.

I understand your concern. But I think much depends on how intuitive things are to use. If things are hard to grasp without reading the manual, users will not understand the concept. But if you can manage to make things intuitive/self-explaining, I think users will understand such a concept with ease.

E.g. here's how I could imagine how you could setup the factory default:

Input ->
- ...
- Image Adjustment Profile ->
- SD broadcasting
- SD DVDs
- HD broadcasting
- HD DVDs / Blu-Rays
- ...
Output ->
- ...
Image Adjustment Profiles ->
- create new profile
- Profiles ->
- SD broadcasting ->
- SD DVDs ->
- analog noise reduction -> 2 (0..10)
- mosquito noise reduction -> 2 (0..10)
- block noise reduction -> 2 (0..10)
- texture enhancement -> 0 (0..10)
- edge enhancement -> 0 (0..10)
--------
- rename this profile
- delete this profile
- copy/duplicate this profile
- HD broadcasting ->
- HD DVDs / Blu-Rays ->

Additionally there should be a context help on "Input -> Image Adjustment Profile" which explains that the user can setup/add/rename/change/delete profiles in the menu root under "Image Adjustments Profiles". I think with such a menu structure most if not all people would understand the concept. Important factors for me are that profiles can be named and that all profiles can be seen/changed without having to activate them first.

I'd welcome if you could extend output profiles to work in a similar way. That is: Allow people to give them names. Don't use a fixed number of profiles, but let users add/delete/copy/rename output profiles. And make all existing profiles available for browsing and editing in the menu structure, without having to activate them first. No "hidden" profiles, anymore, please, which are visible only if certain circumstances are met first. IMHO these changes would help a lot to make the OSD more user friendly.

Just my thoughts, though.

P.S: If all profiles (even the ones which are not currently active) are listed in the menu structure, there should be some indication which profile is the currently active one. E.g. you could add "(active)" to the profile name. Or you could change the front style/color.

Great post madshi. I am happy to hear that Lumagen (Jim) is listening and will take advice like this into consideration! :cool:

Only problem is, my HDQ performs so well I don't see a reason why I would upgrade to the Radiance.I've taken a long hard look at the differences. I would say that valid reasons for upgrading would be:

1) State-of-the-art SD video processing (in the UK, this is still really important) including diagonal edge processing.
2) HDMI-based (including audio handling).
3) Two digital (HDMI) outputs.
4) Low processing latency.
5) Ability to accept 1080p50 and 1080p60 inputs.
6) Mosquito, BAR, and temporal noise reduction algorithms.
7) Longevity of support vs. HDQ.
8) Future features of mystery!

All or none may be important to you.

Will this unit make a big difference with the JVC RS-1 or would I just be wasting my money?

Will this unit make a big difference with the JVC RS-1 or would I just be wasting my money?Well, I'm getting one to partner my HD1 (RS1). I had come to the conclusion that the days of the mega-buck external video processor were numbered, but I've changed my mind. I was going to see if I could live with the Gennum processing in the HD1, but for a couple of reasons - mainly incompatibility with my Oppo 970 and overscan of SD material - I've decided to go the external VP route (again).

In the context of my system, an external VP is important for:

1) Display calibration.
2) Source calibration (on an individual source basis).
3) 1080p24 from 480i60 and 1080i60 24fps film material.
4) Having no overscan with SD material (the HD1 overscans 480i/p by 2.5% all round).
5) Getting interlaced SD channels over HDMI from my SkyHD (satellite) box (via EDID table control).
6) Independent and per-source/input control of various forms of noise reduction (mosquito, BAR, temporal).
7) Upgradability (processor, HDMI 1.3, firmware fixes and new features).
8) HDMI switching.
9) Second HDMI output.

Whether or not a Radiance is right for you depends on your sources and priorities.

I was going to see if I could live with the Gennum processing in the HD1, but for a couple of reasons - mainly incompatibility with my Oppo 970 and overscan of SD material - I've decided to go the external VP route (again).What's the compatibility issue with the Oppo 970?

Well, I'm getting one to partner my HD1 (RS1). I had come to the conclusion that the days of the mega-buck external video processor were numbered, but I've changed my mind. I was going to see if I could live with the Gennum processing in the HD1, but for a couple of reasons - mainly incompatibility with my Oppo 970 and overscan of SD material - I've decided to go the external VP route (again).

In the context of my system, an external VP is important for:

1) Display calibration.
2) Source calibration (on an individual source basis).
3) 1080p24 from 480i60 and 1080i60 24fps film material.
4) Having no overscan with SD material (the HD1 overscans 480i/p by 2.5% all round).
5) Getting interlaced SD channels over HDMI from my SkyHD (satellite) box (via EDID table control).
6) Independent and per-source/input control of various forms of noise reduction (mosquito, BAR, temporal).
7) Upgradability (processor, HDMI 1.3, firmware fixes and new features).
8) HDMI switching.
9) Second HDMI output.

Whether or not a Radiance is right for you depends on your sources and priorities.Virus have you seen an improvement to the pic with a processor in your HD-1.I ask because I know that the jvc has the gennum chip

Hard to wait for the Radiance. With a JVC RS1 on the way and doing CIH I went for the Vision HDQ. Since the Radiance will be a lot more expensive the HDQ should be able to sell slightly used and not take too much of a hit.

Like everything else. If we waited for the latest and greatest we would never buy anything.

Virus have you seen an improvement to the pic with a processor in your HD-1.I ask because I know that the jvc has the gennum chipDue to the chroma upsampling problem in the HD1, I can't really say that I've been able to do lots of testing. However, I would say that, chroma bug and overscan aside, the cadence detection is excellent (which bodes well for the Radiance). Scaling of 480/576p RGB signal is excellent too.

What chroma upsampling problem could there be? First of all, there's no chroma upsampling going on at all with RGB and 4:4:4 YCbCr signals (unless you count scaling to 1080p as the 'upsampling' - if that's true then the whole scaling process is in question in the HD1). With a 4:2:2 input the chroma needs to be upsampled horizontally. This is different than the traditional CUE type of problem which is a vertical upsampling done by the MPEG decoder and should yield a very different type of artifact than a CUE problem which yields interlace-like problems. I could, perhaps, understand some bandwidth issues with the chroma filters when 4:2:2 is converted to 4:4:4, but this wouldn't look at all like a CUE problem. What type of artifacts are you seeing?

- Dale Adams

Sorry. CUE is the wrong term in the strictest sense (I knew what I meant!). It does look, though, as if it is a horizontal chroma upsampling problem.

Bizarrely, there is definite aliasing in the vertical plane with interlaced SD 4:4:4 sampled colorspaces. See the vertical banding in the following pic:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=48143

Clearly something funny is going on. It's almost as if the projector treats interlaced 4:4:4 signals as 4:2:2, and then screws up when it upsamples again... Incidentally, I'm using an Oppo 970HD which does not suffer from the classic chroma problems.

A similar issue is seen with 480/576p with 4:2:2, but not 4:4:4 (YCbCr or RGB). This issue was confirmed by Ekkehart at cine4home in his HD1 review. Apparently, he has informed JVC and they are working on a fix. At least that's what I think the Google translation of the German said!

@Dale, check out the HD1 review here:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/JVC-HD1/HD1Test.htm

Here are pictures of the problem they reported:

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/JVC-HD1/Bild68.jpg
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/JVC-HD1/Bild69.jpg
http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/JVC-HD1/Bild70.jpg

Yikes! :eek:

Well, that's pretty nasty. They seem to have invented an entirely new kind of chroma artifact. It does look a little like CUE in the horizontal direction. It's almost as if there's some kind of low-resolution artifact that's been imposed on the chroma (which is kind of what CUE is), perhaps with some Y/C alignment problems and filter ringing mixed in.

- Dale Adams

That does look plain broken.
While they're fixing the firmware - put on more pressure to add the vertical stretch :D, remove the mandatory overscan and erm anything else you can think of.

They seem to have invented an entirely new kind of chroma artifact. It does look a little like CUE in the horizontal direction. It's almost as if there's some kind of low-resolution artifact that's been imposed on the chroma (which is kind of what CUE is), perhaps with some Y/C alignment problems and filter ringing mixed in.LOL! (at least I can laugh about it!). Latest forensics from cine4home is that there are two issues. The horizontal chroma upsampling issue with 480/576p 4:2:2, and a whacky scaling issue with all 480/576i colorspaces.

Bit embarassing really. :o

What chroma upsampling problem could there be?

Don't worry Dale, it's NOT a chroma upsampling issue. The new JVC can NOT handle a normal 480i/576i HDMI signal with the standard "pixel replication" format. Hence a ugly pixelized/blocky image as the projector actually trying to display the full 1440 horizontal incoming pixels!

Now working in a video processor company, this is a common issue of video processing.

regards,

Li On
www.pixelmagicsystems.com

Don't worry Dale, it's NOT a chroma upsampling issue. The new JVC can NOT handle a normal 480i/576i HDMI signal with the standard "pixel replication" format. Hence a ugly pixelized/blocky image as the projector actually trying to display the full 1440 horizontal incoming pixels!

Now working in a video processor company, this is a common issue of video processing.

regards,

Li On
www.pixelmagicsystems.com

Why do you think this is the case, considering the RS1 uses the Gennum VXP chip (I am completely ignorant on this issue)?

Seriously I don't see the point of your question! Are you trying to say as the JVC uses the Gennum chip it must automatically give a perfect picture in all cases?

I actually saw the JVC with the ugly 480i picture and posted in the projector forum long ago. According to my experience, that's my conulsion.

regards,

Li On
www.pixelmagicsystems.com

The new JVC can NOT handle a normal 480i/576i HDMI signal with the standard "pixel replication" format. Hence a ugly pixelized/blocky image as the projector actually trying to display the full 1440 horizontal incoming pixelsI guess that makes sense for interlaced signals (but there is also a genuine chroma issue with 480/576p YCbCr 4:2:2).

Given that 480/576i is in the published spec, I guess they'd better fix it!

The new JVC can NOT handle a normal 480i/576i HDMI signal with the standard "pixel replication" format. Hence a ugly pixelized/blocky image as the projector actually trying to display the full 1440 horizontal incoming pixels!Odd. All the HDMI receiver chips I've seen provide this function - i.e., conversion of double-clocked SD interlaced inputs to single-clocked versions. Did JVC just program it incorrectly or are they using some cheaper device which does not do this?

- Dale Adams

fellas, I thought this was a thread about RadianceXD.

There are threads about RS1 that might work. You can also open a new thread titled "new scaling artifact - JVC RS1...".

Sorry. Hadn't intended to hijack it with my original post. As JVC Japan are now aware of the issue, I consider the matter in hand.

I guess it's relevant in that the Radiance is going to solve all of my problems! ;)

I had Jason Turk on the phone to be placed on the preorder list. As far as he knows, shipping is still expected 'Q1' so sometime in April. It would be nice to have Jim confirm or deny this :) (I'm not asking for a firm date of course).

Lumagen's own site is saying Q2 2007 for the Radiance. It would also be nice to know what, if anything, will be missing from the Radiance at its release.

Shawn

I am wanting a processor for several reasons for my upcoming JVC RS-1. I have somewhat narrowed it down to the Crystalio II or the Lumagen Radiance. I did sign up for the AVS prebuy. I know the radiance will be using a newer Gennum chip, which should have better noise reduction, but I am not sure what other benefits the Radiance has over the CII. It is a hard decision, because the Crystalio is a bit more mature and stable and there probably be a while before the Radiance stabilizes.

Cameron, I'm facing the same issue as you. I'm leaning towards purchasing the Crystalio II from AVS, since the price is right, and you're probably right in that it will be more stable than the new Radiance. Who knows when the Radiance will emerge, and when it does, it's bound to be buggy. And if you wait until the bugs are worked out on the Radiance, I'm sure the Crystalio III will be just around the corner! :).

Are there any Lumagen owners here who can speak to that company's customer support with respect to firmware updates for other Lumagen products, upgrade paths for older products, etc?

Thanks, all!

... Are there any Lumagen owners here who can speak to that company's customer support with respect to firmware updates for other Lumagen products, upgrade paths for older products, etc? Thanks, all!
I suggest you look at the various processor threads on this forum to see what users think about specific processors they use, then decide. This is what I did before my recent Lumagen HDQ purchase. Several months ago I asked Jason at AVS to be placed on a purchase list for the Lumagen Radiance which will replace my HDQ. The Radiance architecture will be capable of meeting my needs for the foreseeable future. BTW, Lumagen support has been outstanding. Good luck with your decision.

Although I am biased as I own a Lumagen I can say that the support that they offer is the very best that I have ever received...and yes, I am putting my money where my mouth is in that I have ordered a RadianceXD directly from Lumagen.

Any chance the Radiance will have an ethernet port? I have an HDQ now, and it's been great - but the updates are not exactly convenient to apply. My main concern is that there will be frequent software updates to the Radiance (especially early on), and I don't want to pull out my equipment rack, unplug my control system, and plug in a laptop to the serial port every time there's a software update. It would be really, really nice if I could just attach it to my network and apply software updates from there... If this is not part of the initial release, can/will it be added in the future (modular platform/daughter card)?

If it is that big of a problem pick up something like:

http://www.serial-to-ethernet.com/net232.html?source=goog&kw=serial+ethernet+rs232&gclid=CLPCo5_Og4sCFQGNQAodal-FFQ

Shawn

Any chance the Radiance will have an ethernet port?

The RadianceXD will not have an ethernet port. We are looking at doing a Pro version that does have ethernet on it. No schedule/price on that as we are concentrating on the RadianceXD.

If it is that big of a problem pick up something like:

http://www.serial-to-ethernet.com/net232.html?source=goog&kw=serial+ethernet+rs232&gclid=CLPCo5_Og4sCFQGNQAodal-FFQ

Shawn

Very cool/device option...that said, and I apologize for my naivety, but how would the Lumagen appear on the network (i.e. would it appear as an IP address) and would the update program automatically know to send the files to that ip address/port?

TIA.

Read about how the serial tunneling mode would work. Basically you install a driver in Windows that appears to any comm program as a virtual com port. You would configure that driver for the IP address of the serial/ethernet box.

Then basically when any program accesses that com port the driver redirects the data to/from the serial/ethernet box. The Lumagen update utility would have no idea it was working over the network, it would think it was just talking to a com port on the computer.

Shawn

Shawn, thanks...this is very cool and I may have to try this myself...one follow up, is it correct to assume that the unit come with the necessary driver?

Joel,

"is it correct to assume that the unit come with the necessary driver?"

The web page says it does. I have never used that device so I can't say how well it works or not.

Shawn

Will this unit have HDMI 1.3 or an upgrade path to 1.3?

Will this unit have HDMI 1.3 or an upgrade path to 1.3?It will ship with 1.2b (presumably). Jim Peterson has stated on many occasions that an upgrade to 1.3 will be offered at some point.

I think I will stick with my Crystalio II...

Please note that primaries can only be corrected to the extent they are outside the primary color triangle. In other words if the display/projector has a color space that is larger than the standard, it can be corrected.
Do any of Lumagen's other VP's have this capability?

The RadianceXD will not have an ethernet port. We are looking at doing a Pro version that does have ethernet on it. No schedule/price on that as we are concentrating on the RadianceXD.

Jim - what extras would be in the Pro version? I am currently on the XD beta list but would very possibly want to hold off for the Pro if it offered significant extras...

Thanks,

Mark

Jim - what extras would be in the Pro version? I am currently on the XD beta list but would very possibly want to hold off for the Pro if it offered significant extras...

I have the same decision to make and would like to know the answer to this. Also, when is the ETA and will it have 1.3 from the start?

Martin

Jim has already said there is no ETA on the pro version since they are working on finishing the XD first. Like, on this page. :rolleyes:

Ok, I tried playing some multiburst patterns on 4 DVD player setups:

2. the Oppo 970 HD (at 480i over HDMI - Crystalio 2 does the scaling) - FAIL

Three of the four players came out clean as a whistle, while the fourth player (the 970HD) was the only player did that not display the higher frequency bursts (above 6.0 mhz) cleanly.

Hmm, interesting. I am having some problems in this regard feeding a VP30 with 970HD/HDMI 480i input. Never assumed the problem could be the Oppo. Do you happen to have tested one or more of the following?:

* the Oppo 970 HD (at 480i over Component - Crystalio 2 does the scaling)
* the Oppo 970 HD (at 480i over HDMI, NO scaler, directly to display
* the Oppo 970 HD (at 480i over Component, NO scaler, directly to display

This would show if the problem is restricted to HDMI (first option) and/or would show us if there is some problem in the combination of the 970HD and the C2. Please note that a poster reminded that the Oppo must in in WIDE not WIDE/SQL mode. (Some mental lapse made me post this in another thread, but it was ment to be in this one.)

Slonk,

No discussions of Oppo on this thread please.

Are there any Lumagen owners here who can speak to that company's customer support with respect to firmware updates for other Lumagen products, upgrade paths for older products, etc?

Thanks, all!

is this some kind of sick joke? :(

-Gary

Gary. Come on. The poster is a newbie to AVS. I have no question that his question was made in good faith. All that have been around awhile of course know about Lumagen's superlative history of frequent software updates and great customer service. Of course a little forum research by the poster would have disclosed this BUT many many many posters ask questions often answered earlier in the same thread! Newbies need to be cut some slack by the golden oldies. :)

Alternatively a quick look at Lumagen's website would show dozens of updates, clearly describing problems resolved, and new features added.

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates_latest

StooMonster

Will 8 channel PCM over HDMI be supported ?
I own a C2 and that does not work.
Also 1080i60 to 1080p24 does not work yet on a C2...

Will 8 channel PCM over HDMI be supported ?
I own a C2 and that does not work.
Also 1080i60 to 1080p24 does not work yet on a C2...Why shouldn't it? It's part of the HDMI v1.1 standard IIRC. Now whether or not it is implemented correctly...

Why shouldn't it? It's part of the HDMI v1.1 standard IIRC. Now whether or not it is implemented correctly...
Than i guess PMS has not implemented it right or they cannot becuase some chips do not support it. But one hardly gets answers from PMS on such questions..

Good to read here Lumagen is better in that department.

Having owned a Crystalio VPS-2300 (a mistake for a number of reasons with hindsight), I dismissed the Crystalio II out-of-hand. It seems to me that Lumagen products are simply architected for future-proofing better than the competition. I would have felt pretty chuffed if I had been an early purchaser of an HDP and gotten a free HD processor into the bargain...

It's quite obvious to me that PMS and DVDO are bigger companies with other things on their managers' minds than customer updates which do not generate short-term dollars. Also, with Dale Adams "parting company" with DVDO, I wouldn't touch that company's products with the proverbial.

Lumagen does not fall into that category yet, thank goodness! Keep up the good work Jim and Co. Looking forward to my Radiance!

The new Widescreen Review Ad inscludes the Radiance ;)

Must be getting closer...

- Rich

Other key features include user-adjustable image enhancement, four configuration memories for each input, a programmable output resolution from 480p to 1080p, plus 1080i; the ability to zoom in on any source by up to 33 percent; selectable aspect ratios of 4:3, 4:3 NLS, 16:9, 1.85, and 2.35. The 4:3 NLS uses Lumagen’s Preciseview™ user programmable non-linear-stretch mode to allow the user to program exactly how 4:3 sources fill a 16:9 display. For film sources 2:2, 3:2 and 3:3 pull-down detection is supported (along with other less common cadences) to allow for correct cadence output at 24, 48, 60 and 72 Hertz for 24 fps film sources, plus 50 and 75 Hertz for 25 fps film source.

How are those 4 configuration memories setup ?

With a C2 you have dynamicvp where you can specify things like:
-when input is 1080i60 film, than output 1080p24
-when input is 1080i50 then output 1080p50
-when input is 480i then output 1080p60
- else output 1080p60

This works very nice, and is much better than having to select a preset yourself.
How is this done on a Lumagen ?

In current Lumagens you can do all that except the option based on film detection....and you could do that with them over two years ago......Who knows whether they impliment video/film source output profile detection in Radiance.....

Who knows whether they impliment video/film source output profile detection in Radiance.....That would be nice, even though I don't have much 480/1080i60 video material.

In current Lumagens you can do all that except the option based on film detection....and you could do that with them over two years ago......Who knows whether they impliment video/film source output profile detection in Radiance.....
Nice, but knowing if it is video or film is quite important deciding how to process or better said, to output it at what refresh rate.

The XD news page on Lumagen's site specifies 18 video inputs. But the first post in this thread says 12 - which is it? One of the reasons that I want an XD (and am on the preorder list) is to use it as a switcher. Two component inputs won't do it.

If I wanted to use HD-SDI with the Radiance with both input and output, what would my options be?

What new scalers available now offer HD-SDI connections?

The XD news page on Lumagen's site specifies 18 video inputs. But the first post in this thread says 12 - which is it? One of the reasons that I want an XD (and am on the preorder list) is to use it as a switcher. Two component inputs won't do it.I'm 99.9% sure that the info on the Lumagen site is correct. This thread has been going for a while and the XD has morphed from XD --> XG --> XD whilst Lumagen figured out its final spec and moniker.

So it's 6 HDMI, 4 component, 4 s-video, and 4 composite (which can be used with the component inputs for RGBcvS). :)

Great! :)
I'm 99.9% sure that the info on the Lumagen site is correct. This thread has been going for a while and the XD has morphed from XD --> XG --> XD whilst Lumagen figured out its final spec and moniker.

So it's 6 HDMI, 4 component, 4 s-video, and 4 composite (which can be used with the component inputs for RGBcvS). :)

They need to update their site; It says coming Q107 ;)

- Rich

Somebody somewhere probably has one ;)

Somebody somewhere probably has one ;)Beta testers for sure. It's currently slated for Summer. Which actually is a good time frame for me. :D

I hope to see my beta in May. Of course, like other betas, I'll be under a nondisclosure and won't be able to discuss it.. By then I'll have my HDMI in Moome card for my Electrohome 9500LC CRT projector. Now if I can only talk JRP into providing an SDI in.

I kinda wonder about how long the beta will be prior to release?

I hope to see my beta in May. Of course, like other betas, I'll be under a nondisclosure and won't be able to discuss it.. By then I'll have my HDMI in Moome card for my Electrohome 9500LC CRT projector. Now if I can only talk JRP into providing an SDI in.

I have never owned a Lumagen, but I can agree with your last statement there, I think it is vital for the Lumagen to have a SDI input, not even HD, just SD-SDI, this crowd demands top video performance and no HDCP for analog displays, that is delivered with and only with SDI

-Gary

I think it is time to post my thoughts on SDI and HD-SDI and why Jim was wise enough not to put HD-SDI in the current version of the RADIANCE.

1. With BluRay and HDDVD there will be many users not using their DVD Player any longer for DVD Playback.
2. HD-SDI is quite expensive but there are good cheap solution for HD-SDI to DVI if somebody really needs it. Much better than have customers paying for the expensive HD-SDI chipset and never use it.
3. SDI and HD-SDI are similar signals but the benefit of SDI was bypassing DA converters and linedoubler chips in DVD Players. This is no longer true for HDDVD and BluRay.
4. WHY ?
5. I have not seen all BluRay and HDDVD players inside but I am pretty sure they more or less are based on PC hardware or multiple chip designs as there is no integrated solution available yet (this would bring down the price too)
As it is mandatory to use HDMI to get the HD signal, most if not all users will have to use the HDMI connection. If they want to use HD-SDI they will end up with a solution that is following:
6. HDMI chips are more or less nothing but a parallel to serial High speed drivers with HDCP encryption. Their input is most likely a digital YPrPB/RGB signal in 4:4:4 with 8-12 Bits per color coming directly out of the decoder/scaling part of the player.
HD-SDI transmitter chipsets would have to be hooked to the same signals just serializing the datastream in not only 4 wire pairs but into one coaxial wire.
This benefit can be neglected as long you do not want to run very long cables, Now ask yourself what kind of advantage besides the removal of HDCP HD-SDI can offer.
All the scaling and deinterlacing that is offered by the HD players is done before HD-SDI and HDMI so both signals would be coming from the same source. That is a MAJOR difference to DVD Players with seperate upconversion chips.

Jim is a very clever engineer and this is probably the reason why you cannot find a HD-SDI input on the RADIANCE. He might add this in the future on a more sophisticated model but we will see.

If you are using an analog display and one of the magic devices you should be a lot more concerned about the final digital to analog converter. I have noticed this to have the major impact on picture quality. 1080p at 48 or 72 like the Lumagen analog outputs can offer require high bandwith capability of the chips used.
Lumagen however is the only company on the market that can offer 1080p@72 Hz only at the BNC output which is the only way to get a flicker free image without motion judder from 1080i@60Hz sources like HDDVD and BluRay.

Guys. Jim has committed to producing a "low-cost" (SD) SDI --> HDMI converter box and, coming from Lumagen, this is likely to be simple and transparent. This is a non-issue.

HD-SDI may not be needed by most, but there are those of us that would pay to have an optional input module.

All the scaling and deinterlacing that is offered by the HD players is done before HD-SDI and HDMI so both signals would be coming from the same source. That is a MAJOR difference to DVD Players with seperate upconversion chips.I believe the HD-SDI mods to the Samsung BD player took the signal before any scaling or deinterlacing took place, and thus improved 1080p output from this player. Not sure how the modding works on other players though.

Lumagen however is the only company on the market that can offer 1080p@72 Hz only at the BNC output which is the only way to get a flicker free image without motion judder from 1080i@60Hz sources like HDDVD and BluRay. Are the digital outputs restricted to 1080p60? When using the BNC outputs to get 1080p72, is this true 1920x1080, or have they had to reduce timings somewhere?

All the scaling and deinterlacing that is offered by the HD players is done before HD-SDI and HDMI so both signals would be coming from the same source.
That is not true. You need to differ between what the decoder chip is doing and what additional chips like the Realta/Reon are doing. Generally the decoder is not deinterlacing HD cause HD DVD and Blu-Ray are encoded progressively in the first place. However, the decoder will interlace, if the player asks it to. Deinterlacing is done in all players by additional chips. Scaling could be done by the decoder or by additional chips. I believe usually it's done by the additional chips. So the HD-SDI mod would be after interlacing but still usually before deinterlacing and scaling and also before noise reduction etc. HDMI is after everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spatz
All the scaling and deinterlacing that is offered by the HD players is done before HD-SDI and HDMI so both signals would be coming from the same source.

Actually I meant interlacing and not deinterlacing, that was wrong, sorry. The HD-SDI would have to go after the Decoder, as HD SDI is not supporting 1080p@60p.
The maximum for HD-SDI is 1080@30p.
In this case HDMI and HD-SDI carry the same signal, in 1080i mode, the deinterlacing hardware would be bypassed if there is any.
As 1080i is fully specified standard for HDMI I cannot see any benefit for HD-SDI no matter how the manfucturer implement it.

Generally the decoder is not deinterlacing HD cause HD DVD and Blu-Ray are encoded progressively in the first place.
That statement is quite interesting and has been claimed for DVD as well, but funny enough I could never find anybody in the last ten years that could actually explain me this. I only know that MPEG is based on a GOP with I-Frames and B-Frames. If the MPEG decoder chip internally creates the interlaced signal out of a progressive signal is beyond my knowledge but I doubt, because otherwise we would have seen cheap progressive DVD hardware much earlier than coming with external connected Faroudja and DVDO chips. It would have been much simpler to output progressive if it is true what you are saying.
As I would call myself a veteran in the industry introducing the first SDI DVD Players as VIGATEC units including the first scaler with SDI input (also VIGATEC) besides the very expenive broadcast piece from SNELL WILCOX I wonder if I can find a real expert in HDDVD and BluRay decoding hardware that can answer this question without repeating what he heard or read somewhere.
As explainded installing SDI in a DVD is a different story than installing HD-SDI in a
HDMI capable HD device as long the path between decoder and HDMI output is untouched by a scaler.
The big advantage of SDI was being a digital signal when there was only analog and later bypassing badly implemented HDMI or DVI ouput deinterlacers.

In this case HDMI and HD-SDI carry the same signal, in 1080i mode, the deinterlacing hardware would be bypassed if there is any.
As 1080i is fully specified standard for HDMI I cannot see any benefit for HD-SDI no matter how the manfucturer implement it.
What about color correction, noise reduction, detail enhancement? What about color space conversion (YCbCr -> RGB)? What about cutted head/toe room (BTB/WTW)? All these things could still affect the HDMI output but will normally not affect the HD-SDI output.

That statement is quite interesting and has been claimed for DVD as well, but funny enough I could never find anybody in the last ten years that could actually explain me this.
Then you've asked the wrong persons... :)

DVDs are encoded in 480i/576i. The MPEG2 stream can contain flags about whether the original master was progressive or interlaced. If it was progressive, the MPEG2 stream can contain flags which fields belong together. If the flags are perfectly correct, you don't really need to "deinterlace" the DVD MPEG2 stream, but you just need to weave the correct fields together to restore the original progressive frame. Unfortunately many DVDs contain incorrect flags. So a good DVD player ignores the flags and tries to detect the cadence by analyzing the actual video content. Encoding DVDs progressively is technically impossible, the DVD spec simply doesn't allow it. The max you can do is encode interlaced but set progressive flags. But even in that case the encoder still encodes one interlaced field after the other.

Things are totally different in Blu-Ray and HD DVD land. Blu-Ray movies are encoded in 1080p24. You can do interlaced encoding in Blu-Ray, too, but it's optional and only used for native interlaced content (such as music concerts). HD DVDs movies are encoded in 1080p24, too, but in addition to the progressive stream there are added flags in a HD DVD movie which tell the decoder how to create a good 1080i60 signal. If you strip these flags you have a true 1080p24 progressive encoding. Warner usually uses only one encoding for both VC-1 and Blu-Ray. They simply strip the flags from the HD DVD encoding which gives them a legit Blu-Ray VC-1 stream.

Spatz. From what I understand, the Radiance will not have analog outs Zip. Nada. JRP will someday make an outboard d to a video converter but not now. Thus, CRT guys like me will need a DVI or HDMI input card for our projectors. Fortunately, Moome's new card for Marquees will be ready in April and including shipping will cost only $215. New cards are available for most projectors now or very soon.

I too wish that some accommodation had been made for SDI in the Radiance. Even a dual use of a input so that a connector would not be required.

I have about 200 DVDs and perhaps 50 that I like enough to buy again in HD DVD or BD. That means Max of about $1k in repurchase. After upgrading my HTPC for BD and HD DVD playback, I find that I skew my viewing habits toward HD titles. So every day DVD is less important to me. For new releases, I intend to wait for the HD version anyway.

The most used device in my home is the HD TiVo and for that, the Radiance would be a welcome addition. I see a big improvement with the HDQ over the Panasonic 657UK’s internal processing.

Perhaps they made the right choice after all. On the other hand if you are to sell a $4k processor for a 1080P projector or display, you really need to cater to the esoteric consumer.

- Rich

Perhaps they made the right choice after all. On the other hand if you are to sell a $4k processor for a 1080P projector or display, you really need to cater to the esoteric consumer.True, but if everything had been added, perhaps it would have been more like a $5-6k processor.

All is not lost. Maybe the "pro" version that Jim is thinking of will cater for EVERYONE! :p

madshi,

Believe me, Spatz knows this very well :)

fact is, Stacey Spears continually proved that almost no DVDs in the world maintain a correct flag based lock throughout an entire film, some go as far as completely flopping it all (I believed Disney were mentioned as a major culprit).

BD will be much better as it internally allows for 24fps, which means straight 24fps progressive direct from the source.

About SDI,

I own an SDI player and have had one for... years and years (I don't even remember when I got it). It was a pain to get (a cheasy RP56 that had to be modded once for SDI and modded a second time for multizone and PAL/NTSC compliance). The mods cost more than the DVD itself.

I love that player, but given that you can get a great HDMI or DVI enabled DVD for peanuts now (e.g., OPPO 970/971/981) I don't think SDI has any relevance in this day & age. Instead of buying an SDI->HDMI converter, just get an oppo 971 with DVI out and get the data into the processor.

Sure, SDI cable is better (longer, no problems with sync, resolutions, etc.), no encryption (DVI coming from the oppo doesn't have it either) and there are no color transcoding, but I dare say that show me the man who thinks he can see a difference between SDI and DVI and I'll show you an outright ...exagerator...

I certainly can't tell the difference and I've tried. The oppo coming into the VP50 or HDP Pro looks exactly the same as my RP56 through SDI.

It's heart breaking to see a good format go to waste, I know, but the bad guys have won and we find ourselves dragging ourselves unwillingly into the sad HDMI domains...

I think Jim made a good business and technical decision. Not all of us like it (I certainly hate losing my lovely RP56, which is probably the longest lasting device in my HT), but such is life.

I'd love to see you chime in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828704). :cool:

Sure, SDI cable is better (longer, no problems with sync, resolutions, etc.), no encryption (DVI coming from the oppo doesn't have it either) and there are no color transcoding, but I dare say that show me the man who thinks he can see a difference between SDI and DVI and I'll show you an outright ...exagerator...

SDI has one major advantage for me (and other CRT pjers). NO HDCP!

SDI has one major advantage for me (and other CRT pjers). NO HDCP!

we have a winner :)

-Gary

Ofer there are many of us that claim to see differences between DVI/HDMI and SDI, the main problems I think are the fact that DVI would be converted to RGB, & HDMI 480i is always 4:4:4

native DVD is component 4:2:2, the only way to get that is SDI, nothing else, add to that the HDCP issues, benefits such as cable concerns etc. and SDI is easily the winner ;)

it wins everything except cost

-Gary

Does hdcp modify the signal in any way?

I mean it's an encryption scheme right? And receivers decode the signal they get from an hdmi input. So if the signal is originally ABCDEF, it's encrypted into whatever, and then decrypted back to ABCDEF. Since we were always in the digital domain, there's no loss/change of information there. So besides hand-shake issues, can hdcp (BY ITSELF, setting aside hdmi conversion to 4:4:4 in the case of dvd) be accused of tampering with picture quality? Am I missing something?

No - you're right that HDCP doesn't cause image-loss.
But it does restrict what you can do with the signal - in our case - Video Processors aren't allowed to output over analog :(

This really isn't an issue - you can find hdmi cards even for CRT projectors these days.No - you're right that HDCP doesn't cause image-loss.
But it does restrict what you can do with the signal - in our case - Video Processors aren't allowed to output over analog :(

Ofer there are many of us that claim to see differences between DVI/HDMI and SDI, the main problems I think are the fact that DVI would be converted to RGB, & HDMI 480i is always 4:4:4It's certainly true that there can be differences between a good-quality SDI signal and a 480i HDMI signal. It depends to a large extent on what processing is done to the video signal prior to being sent out over the HDMI interface. HDMI does not have to be different than SDI, but it often is different.

Also note that HDMI can indeed carry a 480i YCbCr 4:2:2 signal (with a resolution of up to 12 bits per component), and that there are DVD players that will output such a signal. It does not have to be 4:4:4. However, this does not necessarily mean that that signal has not been modified in some way. The problem is that you don't know whether or not it has been. It's very possible to have an HDMI signal which is the equal of an SDI signal. Whether such a thing exists or not is another matter.

- Dale Adams

It's very possible to have an HDMI signal which is the equal of an SDI signal. Whether such a thing exists or not is another matter.

- Dale Adams

Do you believe it exists? If so, who makes it? ;)

Do you believe it exists? If so, who makes it? ;) I do not know with 100% certainty of a player which does output a completely unmodified 480i 4:2:2 signal over HDMI. However, I don't know what every player in the world does, so I can't tell you if such a thing exists or not. But there's no reason why it couldn't.

Even if it does, how would you prove it? There could well be a player which does this, but outside of doing a direct, bit-for-bit comparison of the two signals, or having the player manufacturer confirm it, I don't know how you could tell for certain. That's generally not a problem with SDI as the player has to be modified to support it, which may be why it's the preferred solution for purists - i.e., they know exactly what they're getting.

- Dale Adams

Dale, I am glad there are more people contributing to this matter who know what they are talking about.
In fact I was confirming already that SDI being an interlaced signal only, will bypass DVD players internal deinterlacer and DA converters, that can have an impact on the signal as proven by many users of Lumagen and DVDO scalers that did comparisons between SDI and DVI/HDMI (upconverted) or SDI and YPrPb.
BTW I think ARCAM has a 480i/576i DVI/HDMI DVD player.
My original point was that I said I see very little space for improvement of HD-SDI compared to HDMI. Both formats can be "native" 1080i with no processing being virtually the same signal coming from the same signal source, just the form of transport of the data is different.
Considering the cost for HD-SDI Out and HD-SDI In just for a connection of 2m seems an expensive solution.
Anyway I will not miss it, the HDMI of the original Toshiba HD DVD player and the PS3 I currently have for testing is not compromised with problems that I know from DVD players with internal deinterlacing and HDMI outputs.
Just for the record.
I have one cheap Samsung DVD here that I bought for the mere of HDMI audio testing and the signal out of the HDMI output is awful. The deinterlacing is very bad, it is clipping whites and sucking 0-15 IRE in the black hell but IT IS HDMI !!!!
So if I would modify this player with SDI I would see a major difference. But who wants to this with a piece of junk like this.

The main issues with regard to this thread are:
1) Does SDI look better than HDMI for SD?
2) Does HD-SDI look better than HDMI for HD?
3) Will the Lumagen add-ons alter this situation (i.e. will any advantage be lost)?

There's a lot of speculation about numbers 2 and 3 but the simple fact of the matter is that we don't know yet.

There are HD-SDI players out there and Crystalio II has the HD-SDI inputs, but we've yet to see a side-by-side test. The only thing I've heard is directly from the JVB mod guy who says there is an improvement with HD-SDI - but that's it.

The Lumagen product could theoretically be lossless, so lets just wait and see if it is or not before we start saying that the lack of SDI is an issue on the Radiance.

The only one we know for sure is number 1 - SD SDI is superior to HDMI 480/576i in all the tests that have ever been done by anyone who cares to do them when comparing a good SDI player to a good HDMI player. I've seen it with my own eyes when comparing the 480i output of an Arcam to it's SDI output. And I've compared the Oppo 970 HDMI to it's SDI'd version.
Are the differences small? In some cases yes, but certainly worth the $3-400 they cost to modify when used in partnership with a $4000 scaler like we're talking about here. Especially if, like me, SD DVD is still 90% of your film viewing. YMMV

Gary,

I respect your position on PQ (more on that in a second), but if HDCP is the prime concern, there are plenty of DVI players that don't do HDCP (Oppo 971 is just one). The problem with the OPPO is that it already deinterlaces, which means that unless Lumagen adds a PReP like feature, we're already past the point of no PQ degredation due to deinterlacing.

My main question now is, what is the significance of DVDs in this day & age? Given that we have significantly better PQ products out there either based on streaming, optical media (BLURAY/HD-DVD), network, OTA, cable or satellite. Practically anyone in the world who wants HD today can "find a way" to get it HDCP-less...

I for one, am no longer interested in squeezing 2% more out of DVDs when I can squeeze 20% more out of HD content, or 10% more of the SD programming that I get via satellite. i.e., if there's a new SDI-less product that improves my SD programming by 10%, I will go for it.

I don't know about you, but I rarely watch DVDs anymore. Most DVD content that I watch is the kind that I have no choice (the wife brought the disk in or the kids did). If I had my way, DVDs would be all but extinct.

I think PQ admirers want the best out of all worlds, but if I had to choose, SDI would sadly be the first one to go...

I don't know about you, but I rarely watch DVDs anymore. Most DVD content that I watch is the kind that I have no choice (the wife brought the disk in or the kids did). If I had my way, DVDs would be all but extinct.
Have to agree here. I'm planning to sell my SDI modded Philips 963 and my VP50 because I've not watched a DVD for months. HD all the way!

Gary,
I don't know about you, but I rarely watch DVDs anymore. Most DVD content that I watch is the kind that I have no choice (the wife brought the disk in or the kids did). If I had my way, DVDs would be all but extinct.


Totally agree. I haven't watched a DVD in almost a year now and have more HD-DVD and Blu-Ray discs than I can keep up with. My only interest is optimising my HD playback chain. The only place SD PQ still gets attention from me is on TV broadcasts.

Mark

Wow - I'm amazed. There's just so little HD content. I've just had a Spike Lee season - 9 or 10 films. I have no idea how many are on HD, but I'd be surprised if it was more than a couple.
Before that I had an Pedro Almodóvar season - again about 8 films.
So it will be a while before I ditch DVD for sure (maybe never).

I watch DVD content due to the poor audio quality available from DirecTV. The HD picture may be great but movies without top notch audio are disappointing. If only there were more HD-DVD titles...

Wow - I'm amazed. There's just so little HD content.

Yeah, only a couple a hundred titles so far, and another 300+ slated for this year :p

But yes, I accept that not every single title will be wanted by every viewer and that it will be a while before we start seeing "worthy" films from the likes of Spike Lee, etc, appearing. So if you must see a specific title it may only be available on DVD.

Mark

Okay so lets see though, why is everyone going to get the Radiance then? I plan on getting it because I want an outboard processor who's only mision critical function is video processing. I plan on using separates for my theater on the audio side. As for scaling DVD players or Blu-ray/HD-DVD players I'd rather process through the Radiance.

Richard

What you said.

Mark

I watch DVD content due to the poor audio quality available from DirecTV. The HD picture may be great....Wow. You may actually be the first person I've ever heard that said D*'s HD looked "great".

I'm almost tempted to question your standards ;).

Okay so lets see though, why is everyone going to get the Radiance then? I plan on getting it because I want an outboard processor who's only mision critical function is video processing.Whilst some just use their big screens for movies, I use mine for a lot of video too.
I need at least five HDMI inputs for future-proofing (DVD, HDDVD, Blu-Ray, Satellite, HD Media player).
I want a single video switching hub.
I will need a second HDMI output for audio.
I need SD and HD video processing.
I need reliable 2:2 PAL cadence detection.
I need 480i60 --> 1080p24 and 1080i60 --> 1080p24 processing.
I need display calibration and the future primary correction feature.
I need per-source calibration.
I need EDID control for tricking the Broadcom chipset in UK SkyHD boxes to output SD interlaced over HDMI.
I need ring-free scaling.
I need all of the above to be state-of-the-art.
I need Lumagen's track record of updates and service.

That's about it I think! :D

This really isn't an issue - you can find hdmi cards even for CRT projectors these days.
HDCP also causes a lot of handshaking issues. Especially when VPs are involved as they sit in the middle of what is often a poorly implemented HDCP chain. Many times the sources really don't like being connected to something other than a display. Then on top of that you get dropouts, time-outs, required startup sequences, etc.
It's a mess and HD-SDI completely removes all that.

show me the man who thinks he can see a difference between SDI and DVI and I'll show you an outright ...exagerator...


DVI output on Oppo 971 has a greenish cast (out of the box). Modded SDI outoput does not.

Of course, after a proper video processor this becomes a moot point as the cast is fixable.

Okay so lets see though, why is everyone going to get the Radiance then? I plan on getting it because I want an outboard processor who's only mision critical function is video processing. I plan on using separates for my theater on the audio side. As for scaling DVD players or Blu-ray/HD-DVD players I'd rather process through the Radiance.

Richard

So how long are we gonna have to wait for this thing? Anyone else getting a little tired of the waiting?

Do you want it now and buggy or later and stable? :rolleyes:

So how long are we gonna have to wait for this thing? Anyone else getting a little tired of the waiting?

So how long are we gonna have to wait for this thing? Anyone else getting a little tired of the waiting?

Not in the least. While I wait for Jim and Co to nail this sucker I continue to enjoy the stellar performance of their current models. I'd rather they take the time to get things right than rush something to market which then has issues.

Mark

Not in the least. While I wait for Jim and Co to nail this sucker I continue to enjoy the stellar performance of their current models. I'd rather they take the time to get things right than rush something to market which then has issues.
Indeed. I've had quite enough of issues caused by rushing to market with my Crystalio II. I'm aiming to replace it with RadianceXD.

It should be interesting. If I remember correctly, the alpha and beta testers are under NDA. One thing is for sure, Jim and co are very dedicated to making this a one-of-a-kind unit with unparalleled performance.

If you aren't already, find somewhere to get on a pre-order list because these will be hot when they're finallyt released.

Richard

If you aren't already, find somewhere to get on a pre-order list because these will be hot when they're finallyt released.

Richard
Wasn't AVS going to do a Power Buy on these? What happened?

I don't know about a power buy, but the preorder price is quite attractive.

Wasn't AVS going to do a Power Buy on these? What happened?

I don't know about a power buy, but the preorder price is quite attractive.
Thanks. I guess the preorder is already over as I can't seem to find it.

You can always try to contact Jason Turk - nothing to lose by doing that :)

Thanks. I guess the preorder is already over as I can't seem to find it.

Yeah, your local dealer, Jason or any one of us. First come first serve.

Richard

Yeah, your local dealer, Jason or any one of us. First come first serve.

Richard

Are you guys still taking preorders? I learned about the preorders by a sticky at the top of this forum, but it's not there anymore. I don't care one way or the other since I've got my foot in the door, just curious. :D

There was a bad board that had to be remade. It wasn't a bug issue.

Do you want it now and buggy or later and stable? :rolleyes:

Just impatient I guess. It sure seems like HQV and Gennum based processors have been out a while and we're still waiting for Lumagen. The whole switch from HQV to VXP I'm sure slowed things down some.

Not in the least. While I wait for Jim and Co to nail this sucker I continue to enjoy the stellar performance of their current models. I'd rather they take the time to get things right than rush something to market which then has issues.

Mark

While I agree that Lumagen has customer support that can't be beat, the current SD/HD video deinterlacing is decent, not stellar.

For those that have used Lumagen products in the past, do they offer a trade-in program like DVDO (with trading in their products or competitors)?



Thanks
Ron

Yes. The last I heard you can get a percentage of the list price of your current model applied towards a Radiance if you trade it in. I think it's around 50 percent but it may vary depending on which model you have.

I've not heard of any credit given for a non-Lumagen piece.

To my knowledge, it has to be a Lumagen piece. Its a reward for previous owners and their loyalty. Lumagen has a history of upgrades to existing units at no cost. At some point, new architecture is needed. An older unit simply could not be upgraded to reach the performance of a Radiance. So Lumagen makes the exchange as financially painless as possible to existing owners and yet make a few sheckles.

So, I'm intrigued by this upcoming Meridian DVP-6080 processor that purports to interpolate new frames from a 1080p24 input to output 1080p48 or 1080p72. With new interpolated frames, it supposedly makes motion silky smooth. Note this is new frame creation, not simply copying frames. Since Lumagen always seems to have some potential software updates for their processors, I was wondering if anyone knows if Lumagen is thinking of adding this capability to the Radiance processors somewhere down the line.

Dear Ptrubey,

this is phlipps technology and they called it "digital natural motion". It makes film look like video. I personally do not like it but the process is highly complicated and it works pretty nice. You would however need to use 48p or higher. With 24p there would be no space in the cadence of adding new frames.With 48p however the second frame could be a synthesized frame out of the first and third (belonging to the next field).
It is available from Philipps for several years and yet has not been picked up by a scaler manufacturer. I personally think that there is few home theater fans that would like the appearance of LTR to be like the one of a daily soap.
To my knowledge they yet have no silicon that does this for HD.

I tried DNM with a software player (WinDVD I think) and it was smooth but very disconcerting. It was a disaster with fast motion films like Miracle. The hockey scenes were a mess.

- Rich

"I think it's around 50 percent but it may vary depending on which model you have. ""

I think it was 33% of MSRP of the unit traded in in credit toward the Radiance. In most cases one could probably do better off just selling their old unit outright.

Shawn

I think it was 33% of MSRP of the unit traded in in credit toward the Radiance. In most cases one could probably do better off just selling their old unit outright.

Shawn

In that case, wanna buy my HDP? :) ;)

Nahh, but can I interest you in a HDP Pro? ;)

Shawn

When the Realta comes out I'll be looking for a HDQ or HDP Pro for the bedroom... The LCD in there will take 1080p, dot by dot and the internal scaler is horrible compared to the HDQ/Mitsubishi setup in the family room...

Sean

I still think a blending option for this would be great software addition. i've been looking into the TVones C2-7100. come on Jim, go for it!

Athanasios

With all these projectors out there with non standard primaries there is demand for properly done color gamut correction. Will the Radiance support this?

With all these projectors out there with non standard primaries there is demand for properly done color gamut correction. Will the Radiance support this?Primary correction for over-saturated primaries is slated as a post-release functional addition. It's mentioned earlier in this thread.

Yeah, this is a much wanted piece of functionality and one the Lumagen have promised, but they have stated that it only works with over-saturated primaries. However, I do wonder whether there is also room to improve undersaturated primaries also by moving them to the points on the gamut triangle whereby at least all colors within the smaller triangle are then correct and those outside are correct but undersaturated... What would be ideal is that Lumagen allows us to move primaries to presets, eg Rec. 709 *and* user specified co-ordinates.

Mark

Agreed Mark (though it's not an issue for me with my HD1). I suggested this a few pages back! :D

Yeah, this is a much wanted piece of functionality and one the Lumagen have promised, but they have stated that it only works with over-saturated primaries. However, I do wonder whether there is also room to improve undersaturated primaries also by moving them to the points on the gamut triangle whereby at least all colors within the smaller triangle are then correct and those outside are correct but undersaturated... What would be ideal is that Lumagen allows us to move primaries to presets, eg Rec. 709 *and* user specified co-ordinates.The mathematical manipulations of the RGB signals required to correct for an oversaturation problem should also let you perform the type of other corrections you're asking for. There's no way the Lumagen can have a predefined preset for 709 colors, though, at least not without some sort of automated measurement system. It can't know exactly what the coordinates of your display's primaries are without measuring them, and it can't correct without knowing the xy coordinates.

- Dale Adams

The mathematical manipulations of the RGB signals required to correct for an oversaturation problem should also let you perform the type of other corrections you're asking for. There's no way the Lumagen can have a predefined preset for 709 colors, though, at least not without some sort of automated measurement system. It can't know exactly what the coordinates of your display's primaries are without measuring them, and it can't correct without knowing the xy coordinates.

- Dale Adams

If a display is inaccurate in the first place, couldn't this adversely affect other colors and also reduce the accuracy of the overall display there are only so many bits to work with?

- Rich

Wow.

I have NO clue what you guys are talking about. I just hope the XD will be able to perform comb-less SD and HD video deinterlacing, output 24Hz for film based material, and scale my DVDs without this nasty ringing effect. Also, switch easily between my PS3/XBox/DVD player etc...

Anyhow. Carry on. :D

If a display is inaccurate in the first place, couldn't this adversely affect other colors and also reduce the accuracy of the overall display there are only so many bits to work with?

- Rich

If a display is inaccurate in the first place, couldn't this adversely affect other colors and also reduce the accuracy of the overall display there are only so many bits to work with?It will depend to some extent on what type of inaccuracies there are. If it's just the primary xy coordinates that are off, then you should be able to correct for that (although with some potential undersaturation issues). There are any number of other possible problems you can run into, though, such as incorrect secondaries, inaccurate color decoding, etc. Some of these require more sophisticated correction than what's needed to just move the primaries.

One related problem, though, is the one you mention - i.e., a limited number of bits of resolution. If you only have 8 bits of resolution to work with, then adjusting the primaries will reduce the effective bit depth available, and will also potentially cause visible banding issues. If you're working at bit depths of 10 or 12 bits, the banding problems should pretty much be a non-issue. That higher bit depth has to be present through the entire signal path from the Lumagen to the display's imaging element itself, though, or you're likely to just re-introduce the problem at a later stage.

- Dale Adams

One related problem, though, is the one you mention - i.e., a limited number of bits of resolution. If you only have 8 bits of resolution to work with, then adjusting the primaries will reduce the effective bit depth available, and will also potentially cause visible banding issues. If you're working at bit depths of 10 or 12 bits, the banding problems should pretty much be a non-issue. That higher bit depth has to be present through the entire signal path from the Lumagen to the display's imaging element itself, though, or you're likely to just re-introduce the problem at a later stage.So, assuming that the display performs reasonable horizontal chroma upsampling, would outputting 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr be preferable to 8-bit 4:4:4?

The mathematical manipulations of the RGB signals required to correct for an oversaturation problem should also let you perform the type of other corrections you're asking for. There's no way the Lumagen can have a predefined preset for 709 colors, though, at least not without some sort of automated measurement system. It can't know exactly what the coordinates of your display's primaries are without measuring them, and it can't correct without knowing the xy coordinates.

- Dale Adams

My assumption is the user would measure their primary coordinates, tell the Lumagen what they were and the Lumy would map to presets, eg Rec.709

Mark

I am very interested in the Radiance and this was extracted from the first post in this thread. Can anyone confirm if this is still true

"An external universal power supply enhances the processor’s reliability, placement options, and it allows for quiet – no fan - operation."

This would be a great feature, that I originally missed in reading all the other great features :p

Thanks

Uncertain at this point.

We will be using the Gennum's inverse telecine. It can output 24p. If this works as we expect it to, generating 24sF will not be hard. Still I cannot be sure when 24sF will be completed.
Jim,

Can you confirm the 24p output from the Gennum works ok in the version of the chip you use ?

I currently own a C2, and i still can't get decent 1080i60 to 1080p24 from it. After some time it looses cadance and it starts to look as 10fps or something like that.
PMS is aware of this problem, and is awaiting firmware update from Gennum, but since they are waiting already for months i get the feeling someing is flawed there (Gennum side).
I would really like to have a good working 1080i60 to 1080p24, but not want 2 expensive scalers that cannot do it.

I want to use the Radiance to process video for two different HDMI video displays: JVC DLA-RS1 and Samsung HL-S6767W. My Radiance video inputs will be various HDMI, component and S-Video sources. Since the Radiance has two HDMI outputs and two coax audio outputs, for maximum audio capabilities am I correct that one Radiance HDMI output will be needed for audio input to the Denon and that the other Radiance HDMI output will be needed for video input to a video switcher such as the Geffen 2x2 HDMI switcher (EXT-HDMI-242) which itself has two HDMI outputs that would be switched to handle the Radiance processed video to either the JVC or the Samsung displays? Thanks

I want to use the Radiance to process video for two different HDMI video displays: JVC DLA-RS1 and Samsung HL-S6767W. My Radiance video inputs will be various HDMI, component and S-Video sources. Since the Radiance has two HDMI outputs and two coax audio outputs, for maximum audio capabilities am I correct that one Radiance HDMI output will be needed for audio input to the Denon and that the other Radiance HDMI output will be needed for video input to a video switcher such as the Geffen 2x2 HDMI switcher (EXT-HDMI-242) which itself has two HDMI outputs that would be switched to handle the Radiance processed video to either the JVC or the Samsung displays? Thanks

That is my understanding...

The alternative is VP->AVR->Display 1 on one output, and VP->Display 2 on the other output.

That routing is dangerous as you are assuming that the AVR can pass the video signal with no degradation of further processing...

I do want the best video AND audio possible, but I do not believe the Denon AVR has a pass through processing free HDMI/HDCP capability. That is why I added the Geffen switcher to the video path and avoided the using the Denon for video. I do believe that a third HDMI output dedicated to audio for two video display configurations would be a worthwhile addition to the Radiance.

I do want the best video AND audio possible, but I do not believe the Denon AVR has a video pass through processing free HDMI/HDCP capability. That is why I added the Geffen switcher to the video path and avoided the using the Denon for video. I do believe that a third HDMI output dedicated to audio for two video display configurations would be a worthwhile addition to the Radiance.

What leads you to conclude that the Denon AVR won't pass through HDMI video?

I hope that isn't true. I own the AVR-4306, and as far as I can tell it doesn't do anything to the video of an HDMI input source except switch it onto its own HDMI output. It's also 1080p-capable.

It does upconvert analog signals to HDMI, but I think that's defeatable (and probably irrelevant here).

Yes, I would think that the Denons pass through the video properly without any processing. You could argue that the splitter may be affecting the video in some way as well. I think that the intended purpose of the dual outputs is for either those with receivers that cannot handle 1080p, or for driving dual displays.

I am contemplating the Radiance for my dual display setup. When running just my LCD, I use the LCD's speakers. My RS1 and main speakers are oriented in a different direction. That's why I suggested the connection above.

In reality, I don't think either the AVR or the splitter are harming the signal in any way.

The alternative is VP->AVR->Display 1 on one output, and VP->Display 2 on the other output.My understanding is that the Radiance won't have dual display capability, at least not from the start.

From the press release:

The second HDMI output can be a copy of the first output, or it can be used as an audio only output to send audio to receivers that do not support full 1080p60 for their HDMI inputs.

This isn't going to cut it for two simultaneous handshakes from different display devices.

My understanding is that the Radiance won't have dual display capability, at least not from the start.

From the press release:

The second HDMI output can be a copy of the first output, or it can be used as an audio only output to send audio to receivers that do not support full 1080p60 for their HDMI inputs.

This isn't going to cut it for two simultaneous handshakes from different display devices.

Viruskiller, nice seeing you on my side of the pond...as far as simultaneous handshakes are concerned, my Gefen 2x2 with IR/RS-232 control does allow for this...

Viruskiller, nice seeing you on my side of the pond...Here, Hitchers, everywhere... ;)

as far as simultaneous handshakes are concerned, my Gefen 2x2 with IR/RS-232 control does allow for this...Of course. My point was simply that you won't be able to do it (at least on release) with a Radiance and Denon AV amp as was suggested in the post I quoted.

My understanding is that the Radiance won't have dual display capability, at least not from the start.

From the press release:

The second HDMI output can be a copy of the first output, or it can be used as an audio only output to send audio to receivers that do not support full 1080p60 for their HDMI inputs.

This isn't going to cut it for two simultaneous handshakes from different display devices.

In the first option, what is the purpose of the second output then, if not for a second display? How do splitters work then - they are also exact copies of the same output.

Splitters can be copies, but in the case of the latest Gefens, they actually negotiate the handshake with each device separately. In other words, some HDMI processing takes place within the splitter.

However, now that I've thought on this a little more, I think it's almost certain that the Radiance will handle dual handshakes. As with splitters, you'll need two displays that can handle the same output from the Radiance in terms of resolution, frame-rate, and colour-space.

So an external splitter probably isn't needed! None of them change any of the output parameters I've mentioned above...

How about this; if you use the hdmi into the radiance to transport video plus DD or dts, can the audio bitstream then be redirected to the optical or coaxial outputs?

This isn't going to cut it for two simultaneous handshakes from different display devices.Having re-read my post, what I really meant was that the initial Radiance release isn't going to cut it for two displays with different input requirements (resolution, frame rate, colour-space).

Sorry for any confusion. :rolleyes:

You can drive 2 displays at the same output resolutions. An unit having two independent output would require two scaling engines, quite expensive and probably the ultimate way. However the future will be 1080p displays everywhere, so there might be no need for an unit like this. The only thing would be aspect ratio as this is part of the scaling engine. If you want however watch different sources on the 2 outputs the internal architecture of the Radiance requires virutally 2 radiances and then the price might be very close to buying 2 units.
We will see what Lumagen will come up with.

Two outputs is a great idea and since downscaling is a "less lossy" procedure than upscaling, it's quite likely PQ will not suffer in the process and a 1080P projector + HD plasma will probably look great as a result.

The question is whether or not HDMI handshaking will work on both devices. I don't think there is any other choice but to do this handshaking since it is probably needed even if it's an audio only connection.

I guess we'll have to wait & hear from Lumagen on the subject. In either case, I don't think this should be a deal breaker for anyone.

Is there a current ETA of the Radiance?

"I don't think there is any other choice but to do this handshaking since it is probably needed even if it's an audio only connection."

There is no such thing as an audio only connection over HDMI. The audio data is passed in the VBI of the video signal. Only way to pass audio over HDMI is interleaved in the video.

Notice that the 'audio' output of the Radiance is specified as being a blank 720p signal, this is why.

Shawn

Is there a current ETA of the Radiance?


As has been previously reported, Lumagen is hard at work making the Radiance as good as it can be OOTB. To accomplish this, they are committed to extensive beta testing, which should begin soon (read as within a month or two). Depending upon beta results, you could begin seeing units for sale sometime between July and CEDIA.

Point is, they really want to "get it right," and it will be ready when it's ready. :)

Jim

I wonder if there's a chance the first production models will feature HDMI 1.3, with the timeframe moved somewhat forward as it is, would this be practical? Given the modular design perhaps just availability of parts was preventing it, and by the time they are produced such parts should be more available.

uzun,

I do not believe the first units will offer 1.3

There are very, very limited beta units out but everyone is under NDA so cannot discuss the device. Jim has said that there will be an upgrade programme for 1.3 for those folk who want it when the parts are eventually available.

Gordon

uzun,

I do not believe the first units will offer 1.3

There are very, very limited beta units out but everyone is under NDA so cannot discuss the device. Jim has said that there will be an upgrade programme for 1.3 for those folk who want it when the parts are eventually available.

Gordon

That means at some time, these units will probably offer 1.3 ;)

- Rich

Hi, fellows
This is my first post. I'm very interested in the Radiance XD but it puzzles me that it appears as not being possible to use the vp for two displays with different resolutions and not simultaneously.
Is there any way of doing this on the basis of the current information? The description of the Radiance doesn't include programmable ouputs set up.

To the best of my knowledge, you are correct, it won't be possible.

Thank you, Mark

I'm very interested in the Radiance XD but it puzzles me that it appears as not being possible to use the vp for two displays with different resolutions and not simultaneously.
Is there any way of doing this on the basis of the current information? The description of the Radiance doesn't include programmable ouputs set up.I've been giving this some more thought and, based on the publically available info, I don't think it will be possible (but I may well be wrong). The Gennum chip in the Radiance is dual channel, but Lumagen does the scaling with their own proprietry algorithm. In other words, the entire Radiance architecture would have to be dual channel to accommodate two different output resolutions. I simply don't know if this is the case, but I would doubt it at the price.

Pardon me if this has been asked before, but is it possible for a video processor to control positioning of captions/subtitles to move them out of the black bars on 2.35 material? If it is possible, could this be an added feature for the Radiance? I would buy a product in a hearbeat if it would allow repositioning of captions on HD-DVD's in particular.

Do the other Lumagens have caption/subtitle positioning?

Do the other Lumagens have caption/subtitle positioning?

I do not think that is possible in any VP. It needs to be done in the dvd/HD-player, because the subtitles a mixed into the video? I do not think it is possible for the VP to extract that information from the picture and then reposition it...

Yeah I guess you are right. I have an Immersive Simmetry, and you can select where the subtitles would go, but that is a combined DVD player and video processor.

I'm sure that Lumagen could do something clever if there was enough demand... :)

Joel, fwiw I would prfer to see them focus on the ability to get the OSD from our Meridian and other pre/pros to be superimposed....for example, when one changes the volume the volume level weould appear...also, sfogg has built such a device for his Lexicom MC-12B.

Joel, fwiw I would prfer to see them focus on the ability to get the OSD from our Meridian and other pre/pros to be superimposed....for example, when one changes the volume the volume level weould appear...That would be nice, particularly as I operate DSP33s at the front with no volume indicator!

As I said above, it's a question of demand. I'm not screaming for a subtitle solution as I don't have a 2.35:1 set-up.

Will the Radiance be able to compensate for the chroma bug with HD material?

That would be very useful when using a MyHD as HD source.

The Anthem D2 is supposed to do it.

Will the Radiance be able to compensate for the chroma bug with HD material?I'd be astonished if it doesn't. With the current Lumagen processors you can choose whether or not to correct for the CUE on a per input memory basis. CUE correction is a fairly simple filtering job, so something like the Radiance shouldn't have a problem with HD material.

I'd be astonished if it doesn't. With the current Lumagen processors you can choose whether or not to correct for the CUE on a per input memory basis. CUE correction is a fairly simple filtering job, so something like the Radiance shouldn't have a problem with HD material.

Thanks for the answer.

Questions!

1. Anyone know if the new Lumagen will be able to output a similtaneous 480i composite output when using HDMI. I ask because my D-VHS deck (HDMI) does not nor does my HD XA2 HD DVD player..I need this send a signal to the video screen on my surround processor

2. Does this units strip off audio (PCM, bitstream)? Is an audio delay built into the Lumagen?

3. Can the two HDMI outputs have different resolutions to run to two different displays? I know the source HDMI output has to be the same.

4. Is HDMI 1.3 a future option or will it ship with 1.3? Will their be a cost to upgrade as a Beta user?

5. Anyone have an idea on initial stability?

6. Working RS-232 control protocol.....Has the Vision series implemented a fully functional RS-232 control?

1) I thought the only outputs are HDMI, though an s-vid or composite monitor would be nice.
2) There is audio delay. I don't think it can strip for HDMI copy protection reasons.
3) No.
4) Yes. Future upgrade option.
5) Who can say.
6) Yes.

Doesn't an audio delay necessitate stripping?

Nobody answered a question I asked above; can you redirect a DD or dts stream coming in via hdmi, to an optical output? I love my (old) Outlaw 950 and don't want to upgrade - yet. I guess I can always run the optical from whatever transport I'll be using to the Lumagen as well, but fewer cables is a good thing in my books.

I think the audio delay may handled by metadata in the HDMI stream, but I may be talking bull. I'm pretty certain there is delay for DD/DTS/PCM input via the optical or coax inputs...

It is my understanding that any audio coming in over HDMI has to go out over HDMI and cannot be transcoded to optical or spdif rca. This is a requirement of the HDMI licence. Anyone not doing this is risking litigation I believe.

Gordon

It is my understanding that any audio coming in over HDMI has to go out over HDMI and cannot be transcoded to optical or spdif rca. This is a requirement of the HDMI licence. Anyone not doing this is risking litigation I believe.

Gordon

More cables it is then :)

It is my understanding that any audio coming in over HDMI has to go out over HDMI and cannot be transcoded to optical or spdif rca. This is a requirement of the HDMI licence. Anyone not doing this is risking litigation I believe.

Gordon

If that's the case, then ABT/DVDO have a problem. I know that you are able to do this with the VP50. That's the way I had things hooked up before I got my HDMI receiver - audio in via HDMI for all sources for simplicity, audio out via coax - worked fine for DD and DTS. Of course, I set the audio to bitstream for all of my sources. Are the license problems related to converting PCM to bitstream?

Boy I think my Halcro SSP can transcode it (but have to down res it to bitstream)...I'll have to check.


Does this unit have a simlpe composite video out and and it output 480i during HDMi output?

Jeff; Radiance has only HDMI video outputs.

Re HDMI audio transcoding. It's to do with copy protection I think. I guess if there is no copy protection on the source then transcoding could be allowed. Jim from Lumagen will have to state what their position on this is as he's the man.....

Gordon

Anyone not doing this is risking litigation I believe.

Isn't ABT (DVDO) owned by Silicon Image (makers of the HDMI chipsets)? If anyone is breaking a rule I doubt it is them!

If that's the case, then ABT/DVDO have a problem. I know that you are able to do this with the VP50.
And with the Crystalio II.

One more question.

As a Qualia owner, my max res is 1080p24sf.

Currently, I feed my projector 1080i - it cannot handle 1080P60 or 1080P24.

If I get a Radiance, feed it a 1080P60 OR 1080p24 source and it converts it to 1080P24sF, would there be a significant increase in PQ?

I think that is unanswerable until someone who is not under NDA and who has a Radiance and a QUALIA can do the comparison.

Gordon

It is my understanding that any audio coming in over HDMI has to go out over HDMI and cannot be transcoded to optical or spdif rca. This is a requirement of the HDMI licence. Anyone not doing this is risking litigation I believe.

Gordon

This was also the understanding of VantageHD initially. However very quickly they changed their statement and said yea they could do it legally. As of now, DVDO/PMS/VHD are all doing this. So I dun see why the Lumagen won't do it.

btw does anyone know the Radiance's power supply is inbuilt or a separate laptop style box ?

From the press release:

An external universal power supply enhances reliability, placement options, and allows for quiet – no fan – operation.

:)

One more question.

As a Qualia owner, my max res is 1080p24sf.

Currently, I feed my projector 1080i - it cannot handle 1080P60 or 1080P24.

If I get a Radiance, feed it a 1080P60 OR 1080p24 source and it converts it to 1080P24sF, would there be a significant increase in PQ?
YOU HAVEN'T GOT THE 1080P UPGRADE YET, ALONG WITH THE IMPROVED GAMMA TABLES???

Oh the shame! :p
In all seriousness, the ability to use my current Lumagen to do all the processing and send a 1080p signal to the 004 has led to another level of performance. :D

Everyone who has one or will get one in the near future will be under an NDA. Best to ask Lumagen directly and see if they chose to answer, thus putting the answer in the public domain.

YOU HAVEN'T GOT THE 1080P UPGRADE YET, ALONG WITH THE IMPROVED GAMMA TABLES???

Oh the shame! :p
In all seriousness, the ability to use my current Lumagen to do all the processing and send a 1080p signal to the 004 has led to another level of performance. :D

Mike,

I don't use my theater for live TV or many video games, so 1080P 60 does little for me..

I'm a movie guy and even with the DVI 1080P upgrade, you still can't do 1080P24..not to mention the HDMI to DVI issues with HD DVD.

With the Lumagen, I can take a 1080P24 signal atraight from my Blu Ray & HD DVD players and have it converted) it to 1080P24sF without the the need for the upgrade with no artifacts (all at the price of the Qualia upgrade)!!! :D

Mike,

I don't use my theater for live TV or many video games, so 1080P 60 does little for me..
You mean you don't watch the Superbowl in your theater? Man, I sure am loving all the great 1080 HD source from off-air and Dish. 1080 HD is what the 004 was built for!

I'm a movie guy and even with the DVI 1080P upgrade, you still can't do 1080P24..not to mention the HDMI to DVI issues with HD DVD.The HD-DVD HDMI->DVI has been addressed with v2.2 firmware. Ther Lumagen rocks in its ability to output 444 colorspace.

With the Lumagen, I can take a 1080P24 signal atraight from my Blu Ray & HD DVD players and have it converted) it to 1080P24sF without the the need for the upgrade with no artifacts (all at the price of the Qualia upgrade)!!! :D Yes, you are right, but my setup is multipurpose. BTW, I'm still holding out on BluRay although I wish Toshiba would get on the ball and have HD-DVD output 1080p24.

Question: will the Radiance keep all the HDMI inputs active at the same time?

That would be very useful to prevent the loss of HDCP handshaking that happens when you change source.

With most PJs or processors, it's impossible to compare HD-DVD and Blu-ray for example, switching makes the player stop playing.

I have a Toshiba HD-A2 and with the latest firmware it still seems to force RGB output when hooked to a DVI display. Is it perhaps the Denon 3806 forcing the issue? Or does the A2 not allow YCbCr with DVI devices still, while the A1 does?

476 posts about a product that doesn't even exist yet has got to be a new record, even for AVS.

476 posts about a product that doesn't even exist yet has got to be a new record, even for AVS.I think the RS1 is going to take some beating...

uzen,

It is the Denon. If my 4806 manual, it states that if it see's a DVI device, it will force RGB, regardless of what is selected in the user menu.

David

476 posts about a product that doesn't even exist yet has got to be a new record, even for AVS.

Not even close. Check out the thread on the newPioneer 8G Plasma displays (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10498299#post10498299) 2500 and climing :D

- Rich

Rich,

I think you quoted the wrong post!

Best,

And Radiance does exist.......

Gordon

Rich,

I think you quoted the wrong post!

Best,

Oops, Thanks, I fixed it :o

- Rich

And Radiance does exist.......Perhaps in some existential sense it exists. But as a commercial product that people can actually buy, it is still a ghost.

It is my understanding that any audio coming in over HDMI has to go out over HDMI and cannot be transcoded to optical or spdif rca. This is a requirement of the HDMI licence. Anyone not doing this is risking litigation I believe.

Not to my knowlege.

As I understood it, you can output SPDIF audio that has been embedded on HDMI but the display that is connected must transmit HDMI EDID with AUDIO otherwise the source will not output any audio over HDMI. If you connect a Display with DVI that support HDCP the audio is usually disabled at the source because of missing HDMI AUDIO EDID. However picture should work.
The higher quality copy protected audio schemes would not be a standard for SPDIF anyway and so the question about these audio streams is to my opinion moot.

Spatz: Jim has looked in to what is and isn't allowed on audio front. I expect he'll post here at some point as to what Radiance will or will not be able to do. It all sounds good to me though.

Here is Lumagen's response to the SPDIF output audio when coming in from HDMI:

The license agreement for HDMI prohibits outputting an audio signal which
comes into our box in an encrypted form as an unencrypted signal. So audio
that comes in on the HDMI connector won't be available on the SPDIF
connector.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

So audio that comes in on the HDMI connector won't be available on the SPDIF connector.If it was encrypted... This seems to me a pretty moot question given that hi-res audio *will* be encrypted 99% of the time and regular S/PDIF capable signals can be connected to the VP via, erm, S/PDIF...

"If you connect a Display with DVI that support HDCP the audio is usually disabled at the source because of missing HDMI AUDIO EDID."

This can be worked around.

For example I have my ProHDP (DVI) plugged into the output of my Lexicon MC-12HD. The Lexicon is HDMI. The 'display' that the Lexicon is connected to (Lumagen) is DVI but the Lexicon modified the EDID to include the audio modes the Lexicon itself supports. This lets me get multichannel high resolution over HDMI to the Lexicon and run DVI out of the Lexicon to the Lumagen.

With the Radiance if one is using the second HDMI output for Audio Lumagen might consider using the second devices audio EDID for what it gives to the source.

Shawn

"This seems to me a pretty moot question given that hi-res audio *will* be encrypted 99% of the time and regular S/PDIF capable signals can be connected to the VP via, erm, S/PDIF..."

It is very moot since S/PDIF does not have the bandwidth to pass uncompressed multi-channel high resolution audio that HDMI has. At best you could strip L/R off the HDMI and pass it over S/PDIF... but why bother?

Shawn

Here is Lumagen's response to the SPDIF output audio when coming in from HDMI:

The license agreement for HDMI prohibits outputting an audio signal which comes into our box in an encrypted form as an unencrypted signal. So audio that comes in on the HDMI connector won't be available on the SPDIF connector.This is puzzling. I have two Gefen products (their 6x2 HDMI switcher and their 1x2 HDMI splitter) that extract digital audio from HDMI sources and make it available over an optical (TOSLink) connector. This works quite well and in fact this feature was the main reason I chose these products in the first place.

This claim of Lumagen's implies that Gefen is flouting the HDMI license agreement, which seems implausible for a company that has staked so much on its HDMI products and on their compliant implementations of HDMI (unless HDMI audio is usually unencrypted).

It is very moot since S/PDIF does not have the bandwidth to pass uncompressed multi-channel high resolution audio that HDMI has. At best you could strip L/R off the HDMI and pass it over S/PDIF... but why bother?It's not moot because there are still many HDMI sources that include DD 5.1 or DTS audio rather than multi-channel PCM.

Plus some HDMI sources capable of producing multichannel LPCM can be configured to produce something of lower bandwidth. The Toshiba HD-XA1 HD-DVD player (for example) will transcode high-bandwidth audio codecs to DTS, if configured to do so.

This is puzzling. I have two Gefen products (their 6x2 HDMI switcher and their 1x2 HDMI splitter) that extract digital audio from HDMI sources and make it available over an optical (TOSLink) connector. This works quite well and in fact this feature was the main reason I chose these products in the first place.

This claim of Lumagen's implies that Gefen is flouting the HDMI license agreement, which seems implausible for a company that has staked so much on its HDMI products and on their compliant implementations of HDMI (unless HDMI audio is usually unencrypted).

I went and read the license agreement more thouroughly. And I had missed the exception in the license agreement for PCM, DTS, and DD. It allows these to be output as SPDIF from HDMI encrypted sources.

So, we can output SPDIF from HDMI sources for these formats. We will be working on adding this feature.

"It's not moot because there are still many HDMI sources that include DD 5.1 or DTS audio rather than multi-channel PCM."

It is moot because DD5.1 and DTS bitstream audio is available from the source via toslink or Coax S/PDIF.

"Plus some HDMI sources capable of producing multichannel LPCM can be configured to produce something of lower bandwidth. The Toshiba HD-XA1 HD-DVD player (for example) will transcode high-bandwidth audio codecs to DTS, if configured to do so."

And it spits that out over S/PDIF.

If all one is looking for is DD/DTS bitstream I think most are going to find they prefer getting that from their source over S/PDIF connections. Esp. for things like satelite dishes or HD tuners and such as compared to via HDMI. Reason being the resync time on audio format changes is slower on HDMI then S/PDIF because of the handshaking. So when you watch a program on OTA HD for example the program itself may be DD/DTS but the commercials will be in 2 channel audio. You get a longer audio silence as the format changes when using HDMI then when using S/PDIF. On my Sony OTA HD DVR I went back to S/PDIF for audio instead of using audio over HDMI for this very reason.

The real advantage to HDMI for audio is for the high resolution formats. Those can't be fully passed over S/PDIF as the bandwidth simply isn't there. So wether or not something can spit that out to S/PDIF is not much of a big deal since the formats that are only available on HDMI can't be passed over S/PDIF at all anyway.

Shawn

It is moot because DD5.1 and DTS bitstream audio is available from the source via toslink or Coax S/PDIF. It's not moot because I don't want to get digital audio via a separate connection if it's available via the single-wire HDMI connection.

A requirement to use SPDIF needlessly complicates switching arrangements (such as mine) that involve multiple HMDI sources and sinks, with cable runs to displays in other rooms.

In any case, from Jim Petersen's post above, it sounds like Lumagen will be able to provide this feature after all.

If all one is looking for is DD/DTS bitstream I think most are going to find they prefer getting that from their source over S/PDIF connections. Esp. for things like satelite dishes or HD tuners and such as compared to via HDMI. Reason being the resync time on audio format changes is slower on HDMI then S/PDIF because of the handshaking. So when you watch a program on OTA HD for example the program itself may be DD/DTS but the commercials will be in 2 channel audio. You get a longer audio silence as the format changes when using HDMI then when using S/PDIF. On my Sony OTA HD DVR I went back to S/PDIF for audio instead of using audio over HDMI for this very reason.That would certainly be a reason to prefer a separate connection. I can only say that I have a variety of HD DVRs and I haven't experienced this problem on OTA HD since I started using the HDMI connection exclusively for audio as well as video (when I finally got an HDMI-capable A/V receiver about six months ago).

A requirement to use SPDIF needlessly complicates switching arrangements (such as mine) that involve multiple HMDI sources and sinks, with cable runs to displays in other rooms.To clarify: an HDMI-only cable run to a remote location is preferable, but I still need to extract digital audio at the other end if the A/V receiver at that location is not HDMI-capable.

A near-future upgrade will actually make this moot for me, but not necessarily for others.

"To clarify: an HDMI-only cable run to a remote location is preferable, but I still need to extract digital audio at the other end if the A/V receiver at that location is not HDMI-capable."

OK, that makes sense. I was just pointing out that the ability to extract audio from HDMI to S/PDIF does not really give one access to any more formats then what they would have had just from the S/PDIF output of the source itself. From a distribution standpoint running one cable is easier then running two but then of course you need a box to extract the audio from HDMI for the locations that can't accept audio over HDMI directly.

Shawn

It's worth pointing out that there are potentially serious jitter problems with audio over HDMI which Meridian (for one) has pointed out. I'm sure that other (high-end) audio manufacturers are also concerned about this. HDMI simply wasn't designed as a low jitter carrier. It might not be a big deal with vanilla DD and DTS bitstreams, but I'd be concerned if PCM was extracted. Consequently I will continue to use the S/PDIF outputs from my various sources straight into my G68 processor, until Meridian (eventually) comes out with its HDMI solution for encrypted audio.

Jim - if possible I would very much like the ability to copy the active HDMI input direct to the second HDMI output without any modification at all. With the best will in the world, VP manufacturers are not high-end audio experts (and vice versa). The Radiance will be my HDMI switching hub for per-input calibration reasons, but I would like my audio processor to be able to get at the original HDMI sources as it is likely to do a better job at audio clock recovery.

I went and read the license agreement more thouroughly. And I had missed the exception in the license agreement for PCM, DTS, and DD. It allows these to be output as SPDIF from HDMI encrypted sources.

So, we can output SPDIF from HDMI sources for these formats. We will be working on adding this feature.

It is too bad SPDIF can only handle up to 2 ch PCM...