As usualsuspects says, virtuall *all* display devices have incorrect primaries which means their entire colour gamut is wrong. CMS is highly desirable.

c722 - Lumagen will certainly view these as additions to their core product and will only work on them once the core functionality is there. We're just brainstorming here so that Jim and co are aware of our desires for our next Lumagen purchase :D

Tom, surely the maths (as we say in the UK) is a simple correction matrix? Once the user tells the Radiance what the primary errors are it can apply a correction matrix to all colour calculations from that point onwards?


Mark

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that attempting to compensate for incorrect primaries by "adding in other colours" is more complicated than it needs to be. Surely scaling back each primary in a linear manner is the simplest and most elegant solution?

I'm no expert, but it seems to me that attempting to compensate for incorrect primaries by "adding in other colours" is more complicated than it needs to be. Surely scaling back each primary in a linear manner is the simplest and most elegant solution?
Except there's really no way to "scale back" the primary without doing this. You can tweak how bright it is by editing the gamma LUTs, but not what the color itself is. The only way to change the color is to mix in other colors in a given proportion.

The correction matrix is relatively simple when finished, but the intervening steps are where the complexity lies, especially if you are going to correct luminance as well as location:
(before)

Red-In Green-In Blue-In
Red-Out | 1.000 0.000 0.000 |
Green-Out | 0.000 1.000 0.000 |
Blue-Out | 0.000 0.000 1.000 |

(after)

Red-In Green-In Blue-In
Red-Out | a.aaa b.bbb c.ccc |
Green-Out | d.ddd e.eee f.fff |
Blue-Out | g.ggg h.hhh i.iii |


As you can see, even the identity can break down on the diagonal when you are trying to compensate for brightness. Also, if the VP does the correction in component space, just change the labels on the matrix. The concept is the same.

Bill

Except there's really no way to "scale back" the primary without doing this.Doh! Yes I was thinking brightness, not saturation...

Doh! Yes I was thinking brightness, not saturation...
By the way, you edit the same matrix in a VP if you want to change the overall luminance levels:


Red-In Green-In Blue-In
Red-Out | <1.000 0.000 0.000 |
Green-Out | 0.000 <1.000 0.000 |
Blue-Out | 0.000 0.000 <1.000 |


This helps highlight the limitation of doing this externally. It can be done, but you lose bit depth with every type of correction. Thus, you want the deepest pipeline to make the smallest changes necessary and the fattest pipe to the display to ensure that those minimalist changes do not lead to unpleasant artifacts.

Bill

Note: if you wanted to edit gamma curves or do something similar to the parametric stuff that Lumagen currently does, the correction math would look different since it is not linear across all values.

Jim:

Any reconsideration on having an HD-SDI input available, perhaps a "pro version" ?

Yes.

I am now thinking our Radiance pofessional version will have HD-SDI in. We would trade off HDMI inputs for HD-SDI inputs. Not working on this yet, so patience will be needed.

Another voting opportunity: How many HD-SDI inputs are enough?

Jim,

You should make sure that 5pt calibration is also available. For PAL, it's quite difficult to get accurate 10 point DVDs (DVE only has 5 valid points).

I found that the 5 point calibration in HDP Pro is a bit limiting in how far it lets you move those 5 points (the 5 points should match the DVE ones, I don't think they do today).

Yes.

I am now thinking our Radiance pofessional version will have HD-SDI in. We would trade off HDMI inputs for HD-SDI inputs. Not working on this yet, so patience will be needed.

Another voting opportunity: How many HD-SDI inputs are enough?

I would be tickled pink with 2 HD-SDI inputs (Blu-ray & HD-DVD), could live with 1 and an external switcher (although current prices on HD-SDI external switcher are minimum $1500)

Yes.

I am now thinking our Radiance pofessional version will have HD-SDI in. We would trade off HDMI inputs for HD-SDI inputs. Not working on this yet, so patience will be needed.

Another voting opportunity: How many HD-SDI inputs are enough?

1 for me. Will it also be compatible with SDI?

- Rich

Yes.

I am now thinking our Radiance pofessional version will have HD-SDI in. We would trade off HDMI inputs for HD-SDI inputs. Not working on this yet, so patience will be needed.

Another voting opportunity: How many HD-SDI inputs are enough?

Fantastic News!

Jim, any idea of how long after the Radiance is released that you will be releasing this professional version?

I think 2 is the norm on most HD-SDI products I've come across.

Yes.

I am now thinking our Radiance pofessional version will have HD-SDI in. We would trade off HDMI inputs for HD-SDI inputs. Not working on this yet, so patience will be needed.

Another voting opportunity: How many HD-SDI inputs are enough?

I'd buy one in the blink of an eye. Agree with 2 inputs.

Martin

Jim,

I haven't seen this discussed yet but I was wondering if the Radiance will have an RS-232 interface and if so, how extensive the command set will be? Thank you for your dedication to this forum and it's users. Keep up the great work!

- Ron

"but I was wondering if the Radiance will have an RS-232 interface and if so, how extensive the command set will be?"

Yes, it has RS232. Check out the Vision series of processors to see what there command set is like.

Shawn

There seems to be enough interest in this now that I will do a test run. Getting an all-black front plate is not the issue as I mentioned earlier. I will have to see how much work we need to go through to get the laser-etch or silk-screen done on the curved surface for the front panel text.

I will post when I have more info.

Jim,

Remember when you go through your test run that I asked first! When my production number comes round can you put a black plate on it please?

Tim

For those worried about the two tone it really looks very good in person. The pictures don't capture the tone of the silver right, it is more of a titanium sort of shade.

Shawn

While I could just about live with it, I have 10 monolithic black slabs currently and it would just look odd to have 9 black and 1 silver. I'm sure it looks good, but it will stand out like a sore thumb.

I'm a current HDQ owner and have been really impressed with the improvements to it in the last year. I'm glad that Jim continues to listen to his customers' requirements and make changes accordingly.

Now all I need is for Panasonic to bring out a 65" panel that accepts 1080P at 50 and 60 Hz!

Tim

I don't care what it looks like on the oustide, it's what's on the inside that counts! :)

Mark

cardboard box for Mark :D

Yes.

I am now thinking our Radiance pofessional version will have HD-SDI in. We would trade off HDMI inputs for HD-SDI inputs. Not working on this yet, so patience will be needed.

Another voting opportunity: How many HD-SDI inputs are enough?
Woohoo!
Can't wait for this. :)

Since BD and HD-DVD players also output the DVD format, will an HD-SDI card be able to accept 480i from these players too?

Jim,

You should make sure that 5pt calibration is also available. For PAL, it's quite difficult to get accurate 10 point DVDs (DVE only has 5 valid points).

I found that the 5 point calibration in HDP Pro is a bit limiting in how far it lets you move those 5 points (the 5 points should match the DVE ones, I don't think they do today).

Ofer:
Good idea. I added it to the list.

Jim,

I haven't seen this discussed yet but I was wondering if the Radiance will have an RS-232 interface and if so, how extensive the command set will be? Thank you for your dedication to this forum and it's users. Keep up the great work!

- Ron

Ron:
Yes the RadianceXD has RS232 command port. This is also used for updates.

Initially the commands will be the same as the Vision series -- with a couple of addition for new features such as PiP.

We are also considering a new, more advanced protocol with header, tail and more commands to directly set parameters in the Lumagen. Currently the commands are the same as the IR remote commands. So, our user functions have direct commands, but setup commands are dependent on the current state.

The new protocol, should we actually implement it, would not only allow direct commands for setup parameters, but also allow the ability to read back the state of the RadianceXD settings such as selected input and input aspect, etc.

Thanks for the positive comments on a Pro version of the Radiance.

I had been thinking of 2 HD-SDI inputs which seems to match the consensus. So, that will be the working number at this point.

HD-SDI inputs would also take SD-SDI.

Thanks for the positive comments on a Pro version of the Radiance.

I had been thinking of 2 HD-SDI inputs which seems to match the consensus. So, that will be the working number at this point.

HD-SDI inputs would also take SD-SDI.


Jim,

Please don't forget about the SDI->HDMI dongle for those of us slumming it with the non-pro Radiance. ;)

Shawn

Jim,

Please don't forget about the SDI->HDMI dongle for those of us slumming it with the non-pro Radiance. ;)

Shawn

I would most likely do an HD-SDI to HDMI external box first to give us a chance to test the design, before doing the Pro design with HD-SDI.

"We are also considering a new, more advanced protocol with header, tail and more commands to directly set parameters in the Lumagen. Currently the commands are the same as the IR remote commands. So, are user functions have direct commands, but setup commands are dependent on the current state."

That would be good. Because of the lack of framing it was possible on the Vision to feed certain commands to fast and end up making all sorts of unintended changes to the unit.

For example sometimes if one sent a 'ZC' followed quickly by a 'ZT' command it could miss the ZT part of the next command and just start executing the various ascii codes within the ZT command as if they were separate commands. Leaving out the ZC avoided this but it sort of shows where framing characters would be helpful

Shawn

If anyone is interested in seeing the RadianceXD in person, we will be demoing at the Infocomm show at the Anaheim convention center this month from the 19th to the 21st.

We are in booth 1911.

Ron:


The new protocol, should we actually implement it, would not only allow direct commands for setup parameters, but also allow the ability to read back the state of the RadianceXD settings such as selected input and input aspect, etc.

This would really be nice.

The RadianceXD will not have an ethernet port. We are looking at doing a Pro version that does have ethernet on it. No schedule/price on that as we are concentrating on the RadianceXD.

The practical problem with this is that the serial port is used for firmware updates and there is no other way of updating the Radiance (correct?). But that means that the only way to control the Radiance, assuming you don't want to swap cables everytime you do an update, is via IR. Do most people here simply control their current Lumagen via IR?

Really, you should have an Ethernet port. Apart from local issues, it also allows remote Internet diagnosis and some config...

Why do people want HD-SDI inputs? SDI I can understand as you can get SDI modded DVD players. Can you also get HD-SDI modded blu-ray or HD-DVD players?

my XA1 is HD-SDI modded. You need to know where to look ;)

I should have looked myself first before asking. Pretty cool.

I'm with Gino in wanting & needing HD-SDI inputs.

Going to try in the near future to build/modify HD-sdi out media server.

The practical problem with this is that the serial port is used for firmware updates and there is no other way of updating the Radiance (correct?). But that means that the only way to control the Radiance, assuming you don't want to swap cables everytime you do an update, is via IR. Do most people here simply control their current Lumagen via IR?

Really, you should have an Ethernet port. Apart from local issues, it also allows remote Internet diagnosis and some config...

I think we have a good mix between RS232 and IR. I don't think most people mind swaping the update cable in and out to do updates. If it bothered you, you could get an RS232 2-to-1 switch to simplify the change over.

We are considering an ethernet port on the Radiance Pro model. Have not decided yet if we will add it though.

We are considering an ethernet port on the Radiance Pro model. Have not decided yet if we will add it though.

This Pro model just might turn out to be the mutts nuts :)

Martin

I think we have a good mix between RS232 and IR. I don't think most people mind swaping the update cable in and out to do updates. If it bothered you, you could get an RS232 2-to-1 switch to simplify the change over.

Never been a problem here, but on the other hand Lumagen are loved for their frequent firmware updates, which means frequent cable swapping :D

Mark

TCP/IP would be nice as the firmware updates could download from an internet gateway and use the onscreen menus to install the updates via service screen.

Another option might be a USB port and a flash drive. This works reasonably well on the CII, FWIW.

That said, an ethernet port that you can use for updates and for automation control would be nice.

Chris.

Since BD and HD-DVD players also output the DVD format, will an HD-SDI card be able to accept 480i from these players too?

HD-SDI chips accept both SD-SDI and HD-SDI.

It seems a lot of HD players get it wrong and only output SD DVDs as 1080i or 720p. With an HD-SDI output mod these would still, unfortunately, output the SD DVDs as HD.

If they do output 480i on the SDI for SD DVDs, we would be able to accept it.

My beta arrived today, I have an HD Fury, I bought a Radio Shack power supply for it because my HDMI cable is long, I have my HDMI to DVI-D adaptor to get the HDMI cable from the Radiance into the HD Fury, I have a VGA to 5 BNC to get from the HD Fury to my 9500LC ultra, but alas I am still awaiting a female to female VGA sex changer, my breakout is male and so is the VGA on the HD Fury. Hopefully the sex changer will get here tomorrow from Utah and I can hook things up. The Radiance sure looks nice though. Hopefully Moome's HDMI input card for my 9500LC ultra will get here soon too. Until then, the HD Fury will have to do. Moome's will make hook up a lot simpler. Plug it into the 9500LC ultra and hook an HDMI between it and the Radiance.

My wife asked why I am starring at the Radiance when it is not hooked up? I told her it goes back to that Roman and Greek stuff we studied in high school. You know, the Holy Grail. :)

Hi Jim,

I got one of the Beta models of the HDP Pro when they first came out so I've done a bazillion updates. I also use serial control instead of IR. I don't mind swapping cables so much but...............that darn power cable that plugs in right next to the serial connection. It has a big plastic box on the end of it. When you're reaching around unscrewing and screwing serial cables, that "box" was ALWAYS in the way.

Great product and customer support BTW.

Regards,
John

On my HD Pro, I purchased a serial cable and leave it plugged into the back panel 24/7. When I need to do an update, I simply connect the other end to my laptop.

We are considering an ethernet port on the Radiance Pro model. Have not decided yet if we will add it though.

wi-fi!

wi-fi!

No thanks.

[/QUOTE]My wife asked why I am starring at the Radiance when it is not hooked up? I told her it goes back to that Roman and Greek stuff we studied in high school. You know, the Holy Grail.[QUOTE]


Mark, You must have not good grades in history back in high school the holy grail was during the crusades not ancient greek and roman history ;)


Athanasios

My wife asked why I am starring at the Radiance when it is not hooked up? I told her it goes back to that Roman and Greek stuff we studied in high school. You know, the Holy Grail.


Mark, You must have not good grades in history back in high school the holy grail was during the crusades not ancient greek and roman history ;)


Athanasios

You are right about the Greeks, but I seem to recall a Roman or two involved in the first chapter of the Grail legend... ;) (Depending upon which version you go with...

Bill

It seems a lot of HD players get it wrong and only output SD DVDs as 1080i or 720p. With an HD-SDI output mod these would still, unfortunately, output the SD DVDs as HD.

JVB is, AFAIK, the only company doing commercial HD-SDI mods - their mods do infact ouput both 480i for SD, and 1080i for HD, irrespective of player.

JRP,

What are the odds of HDMI 1.3? I read your write up and thought it thoughtful.

I would like it for Bitstream and would like to know if the Radiance will ever be upgraded to 1.3? Or could be upgraded to 1.3..?

would there be much difference on outputting SD DVD through SDI or HDMI at 480i? Is it a "extra few %" debate or would it still make a huge improvement?

Jeff: Jim has said on this thread (I think) or perhaps others, that the Radiance is modular and that a 1.3 input/output card will become available at some point.

jsegrich: There is much debate about this. Implimented properly HDMI out of a device shouldn't be different to SDI in viewing. Some sources do not impliment their HDMI output 480i/576i as well as they could. Whether you can tell the difference on normal material at normal viewing distance is another thing altogether. I would say that invalidating your warranty and the rge cost involved in modding your sources would make it not particularily worthwhile unless you had a very high spec display and wanted the guaranteed best image possible.

Gordon

jsegrich: There is much debate about this. Implimented properly HDMI out of a device shouldn't be different to SDI in viewing. Some sources do not impliment their HDMI output 480i/576i as well as they could. Whether you can tell the difference on normal material at normal viewing distance is another thing altogether. I would say that invalidating your warranty and the rge cost involved in modding your sources would make it not particularily worthwhile unless you had a very high spec display and wanted the guaranteed best image possible.

Yes!

(Sits back and munches on pop corn waiting for the thread to turn into a flame fest.)

.
.
.

Ok, seriously. This has been the topic of countless threads, and the conclusion, usually, is that SDI has its fans (most notably the folks who sell the mod, go figure), but its usefulness re:PQ is, by and large, hotly contested.

Now, I'll give you my (totally unbiased, of course) opinion. I was originally excited to hear that Lumagen would be coming up with an external SDI to hdmi card, because damnit, I want nothing short of the best possible picture, and SDI cannot be anything other than the best possible picture, right? Right?

After reading said threads, though, I am wholly unconvinced that SDI, in this day and age, brings anything of value to the table over hdmi. Unless, of course, your hobby is to pause movies, get really close to the screen, and find tiny artifacts that you'd never have noticed in a million years unless you were actively looking for them. Oh, that or test patterns.


I won't be buying the SDI add-on. I'll just be enjoying my movies.

Mark,

I spoke with a tech at Lumagen a week ago and I got a less enthusiastic answer about 1.3 from him as Jim feels it a bit unnecessary. (I read his nice description on 1.3 earlier in this thread). For video he may be right but I am thinking audio.

I look at it as it is possible that when 1.3 processors come out, there may be an an advantage to send BITSTREAM that we now may be unaware of. For example, dialnorm cannot be processed by the processor with a LPCM signal. That is a nice feature.

I would like to be covered if at all possible.

I look at it as it is possible that when 1.3 processors come out, there may be an an advantage to send BITSTREAM that we now may be unaware of. For example, dialnorm cannot be processed by the processor with a LPCM signal. That is a nice feature.I got the following answer back from Bob Stuart at Meridian from his Q&A session with John Kotches at CES this year. My motivation in asking the question was more to do with the perils of LPCM audio jitter and I was wondering if decoding the bitstream would prove less hazardous.

Does Meridian consider an HDMI solution able to handle LPCM over HDMI adequate (distributed processing solution) or would the ability to decode bitstreams of the new "HD" formats also be required?

Bob Stuart answer:

As we have said before, new format players (HD or BD) must be able to decode in the player to take advantage of all features. If only bitstreams are transmitted then the experience may be different from the intended experience. However there will be circumstances where one or the other gives the better result.

Interpret that as you will!

The answer when translated, seems to say "Who knows? Maybe yes or maybe no!""

Why can't we get 1.3 now.Just stay ahead of the competition and keep every one happy.

Here's another question I got JK to ask Bob Stuart. Until I got Bob's answer, I could not commit to the Radiance.

If one feeds one's HDMI sources directly into a video processor (to enable input-specific calibration) and said video processor delays the audio to compensate for the video processing latency, what implication might his have for audio over HDMI and clock recovery? My point is: Does Meridian need to get at the HDMI stream before anyone else messes with it? This clearly has implications for third-party compatibility.

Bob Stuart answer:

This has no downsides so long as the metadata is correctly handled and passed by the video processor.

After reading said threads, though, I am wholly unconvinced that SDI, in this day and age, brings anything of value to the table over hdmi.

There seems to be a lot of CRT FP owners who are into SDI mods for the lack of copy protection. For most digital display owners, I suspect that this is is largely irrelevant.

There seems to be a lot of CRT FP owners who are into SDI mods for the lack of copy protection. For most digital display owners, I suspect that this is is largely irrelevant.
I'm an HDCP compliant digital user and SDI is just less of a problem, no hanshake issues, longer cable length and you can use highres audio with lowe display resolutions (HDMI has a nasty habit of forcing you to higher res upscales to enable high res audio).

The good people that edit, shoot & do special effects for the movies we all love to watch on our HD setups obviously have no issues with DRM or content protection.

One would think they strive for the best video performance possible. Explain to me again why they are not dying to give up SMPTE 292m or 424m (HD-SDI) to get to this wonderous HDMI connectivity??

Just because you end a sentence with a ? mark, yet alone two? marks, doesn't make a statement a question!

I'm an HDCP compliant digital user and SDI is just less of a problem, no hanshake issues, longer cable length and you can use highres audio with lowe display resolutions (HDMI has a nasty habit of forcing you to higher res upscales to enable high res audio).

Can someone please explain the advantages of SDI or refer me to an info source. I am missing the point of this discussion and I want to understand it.

Thx.

Stan

One other question. My setup will include both the RS-1 and a 37" LCD TV, along with a HDMI A/V receiver, and the XD. Since the XD has two HDMI outputs, I plan to use one for each display. What I am unsure about is whether I should split/switch one of the HDMI outputs to the HDMI A/V receiver I buy for HDMI audio only, or not split/switch, and just pass through the XD's output through the A/V receiver's HDMI port. Will the passthrough mode result in only the audio being processed in the A/V receiver? Does the passthrough mode insure that the XD's output is not modified? I am obviously concerned about the A/V affecting the output of the XD.

To those that don't see the point in SDI: Come on over and have a look at my Denon 2910 via hdmi and SDI... It's hard to miss the difference.

Sean

To those that don't see the point in SDI: Come on over and have a look at my Denon 2910 via hdmi and SDI... It's hard to miss the difference.I think this says more about the Denon's HDMI output than SDI. You can't generalize with a single player. There are players out there with superb interlaced SD HDMI outputs. The Denon would not have been top of my list for pure HDMI.

But this is getting very off topic.

Question:

I have Sony Qualia. It's native rate is 1080P24sF.

How artifact free will 1080P24 (from a BD disc or HD DVD) be scaled in the Radiance to 1080P24sF? Or is this a better route to feed the Radiance 1080i?

So what is the better feed from my BD player / HD DVD player to the Radiance? 1080P24 or 1080i considering the Radiance will convert to my PJ's native rate of 1080P24sF.

Thanks!!!

Until such time as we can comment in pbulic in a definative manner then I would say the following.

HD-DVD: Are there any that output 1080p24? I would send 1080i 60 to a Lumagen processor from that source

BD: It is my understanding that the 1080p24 from the players that can do it is a straight feed of what is on disc. If this is the case then sending that to the scaler to be turned in to 1080p24sF would seem to be the most likely solution for artefact free viewing. Having said that I suspect it will look identical to sending 1080i to the scaler and letting it do the de-interlacing and scaling to your 24sF output.

Gordon

Having said that I suspect it will look identical to sending 1080i to the scaler and letting it do the de-interlacing and scaling to your 24sF output.I suspect the only difference may be video latency.

Can anyone explain what exactly 1080 24sF is? The usual suspects (Google/Wikipedia) didn't yield anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_segmented_Frame

Thanks a bunch Mark.

Turns out it's a pretty simple concept. :)

JRP,

What are the odds of HDMI 1.3? I read your write up and thought it thoughtful.

I would like it for Bitstream and would like to know if the Radiance will ever be upgraded to 1.3? Or could be upgraded to 1.3..?

We will have a RadianceXD with HDMI 1.3. When complete the HDMI 1.3 main board would replace the main RadianceXD HDMI 1.1 board, with no other changes in the box. We plan an aggressively priced upgrade program.

For now we are concentrating on getting the HDMI 1.1 RadianceXD out and into production and then we will work on the HDMI 1.3 version. So, it will be some time yet before this is available.

BTW: We will be charging more for the HDMI 1.3 version of the RadianceXD.

would there be much difference on outputting SD DVD through SDI or HDMI at 480i? Is it a "extra few %" debate or would it still make a huge improvement?

It depends.

If the DVD player uses the MPEG decoder output to directly drive the HDMI in 4:2:2 mode at 480i/576i, than no, it will not make a difference. So, SDI and HDMI will be identical in this case (except of course HDMI will be encrypted).

However, most DVD player manufacturers can't resist mucking about with the output of the MPEG decoder to add their own de-hancements (please excuse me coining a new word to describe making the picture worse). The main advantage of an SDI mod is it can tap into the data stream before these de-hancements take place.

The question is, then, do these 'de-hancements' affect the picture in a significant way?

Jim, I think it would be interesting to know the equipment that Lumagen is using to test the Radiance. In particular, is there a 480i-hdmi DVD player you'd feel comfortable recommending?

Question:

I have Sony Qualia. It's native rate is 1080P24sF.

How artifact free will 1080P24 (from a BD disc or HD DVD) be scaled in the Radiance to 1080P24sF? Or is this a better route to feed the Radiance 1080i?

So what is the better feed from my BD player / HD DVD player to the Radiance? 1080P24 or 1080i considering the Radiance will convert to my PJ's native rate of 1080P24sF.

Thanks!!!

Let me second Gordons response and add a bit of info.

For HD movies, it appears that they are being encoded as 24p (as they should be). You can send us 24p for these, but there is no latency difference to sending us 1080i with the RadianceXD since the delay in the Gennum is so low for deinterlacing (1 field verses 3 to 7 for other brands), and there is no picture quality difference.

Now, however, drop in a 1080i HD video source (no good reason for these to even exist but they do), you are depending on the 1080i to 24p conversion in the player. However, if you are output at 1080i to the RadianceXD, we can continue processing it seamlessly.

If you are outputting from the RadianceXD at 60p, then no question go with 1080i from the HD source. If you are output from the RadianceXD at 24p/24sF, then by outputting at 1080i to the RadianceXD you allow us to do the frame conversion to 24p. Video does not look great at 24p in any case, but I believe we would do a better job than the player.

So, agreeing with Gordon's recommendation, use 1080i from the HD player in all cases when using a RadianceXD.

One other question. My setup will include both the RS-1 and a 37" LCD TV, along with a HDMI A/V receiver, and the XD. Since the XD has two HDMI outputs, I plan to use one for each display. What I am unsure about is whether I should split/switch one of the HDMI outputs to the HDMI A/V receiver I buy for HDMI audio only, or not split/switch, and just pass through the XD's output through the A/V receiver's HDMI port. Will the passthrough mode result in only the audio being processed in the A/V receiver? Does the passthrough mode insure that the XD's output is not modified? I am obviously concerned about the A/V affecting the output of the XD.

What resolution is your LCD? Do you plan to drive the RS-1 at 24p or 60p? Will your amp take HDMI at 1080p60? Do you want PiP functionality?

You could use the amp to switch HDMI and then send to the Lumagen, but you would lose PiP.

Assuming Radiance output 1 is driving the RS-1, output 2 could drive the amp and then the LCD display. If the LCD is 1080p60, and the amp takes HDMI at 1080p60, and you are driving the RS-1 at 1080p60, you could see the image on both the RS-1 and the LCD. If the LCD is not 1080p60 capable, you would have output 2 in "audio only" mode while watching the RS-1, and then you would change output 2 to active for video/audio and use an output configuration set to the LCD's native resolution.

The pass-through mode I agreed to earlier in this thread would pass through both audio and video. Video would not be deinterlaced or scaled. We may allow some calibration on the video, but we have not decided on this yet. Audio would be the same as on Output1. That is a copy of the input audio, which might be delayed if that feature is enabled.

JRP,

What are the odds of HDMI 1.3 in the future..? I don't know how important it will be but I'd like the Radiance to offer it... It is the audio part I am interested in rather than the video.

The question is, then, do these 'de-hancements' affect the picture in a significant way?

Jim, I think it would be interesting to know the equipment that Lumagen is using to test the Radiance. In particular, is there a 480i-hdmi DVD player you'd feel comfortable recommending?

For some players, as someone noted above, SDI is demostrably better.

I don't want to recommend one player over others - partly because I have not seen a lot of players personally. I can say that the Oppo DV-970HD running HDMI out at 480i looks pretty good here at Lumagen.

JRP,

What are the odds of HDMI 1.3 in the future..? I don't know how important it will be but I'd like the Radiance to offer it... It is the audio part I am interested in rather than the video.


See post 820 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10942516&&#post10942516)

- Rich

JRP,

What are the odds of HDMI 1.3 in the future? ...

Please see my post #820 above. If it's not clear this is planned as a board swap upgrade. You keep your unit, other than the one board is replaced.

This HDMI 1.3 upgrade path does include both audio and video enhancements.

Perfect!

Thanks, Jim.

What resolution is your LCD? Do you plan to drive the RS-1 at 24p or 60p? Will your amp take HDMI at 1080p60? Do you want PiP functionality?

You could use the amp to switch HDMI and then send to the Lumagen, but you would lose PiP.

Assuming Radiance output 1 is driving the RS-1, output 2 could drive the amp and then the LCD display. If the LCD is 1080p60, and the amp takes HDMI at 1080p60, and you are driving the RS-1 at 1080p60, you could see the image on both the RS-1 and the LCD. If the LCD is not 1080p60 capable, you would have output 2 in "audio only" mode while watching the RS-1, and then you would change output 2 to active for video/audio and use an output configuration set to the LCD's native resolution.

The pass-through mode I agreed to earlier in this thread would pass through both audio and video. Video would not be deinterlaced or scaled. We may allow some calibration on the video, but we have not decided on this yet. Audio would be the same as on Output1. That is a copy of the input audio, which might be delayed if that feature is enabled.

jrp,

Thanks for the response. It is exactly what I needed to plan my setup.

The LCD is not 1080p capable (768p). Since I definitely want to use PIP, I may have to go with your recommendation to switch the output 2 to active when using the LCD. However, since I will primarily be using the LCD for SD/HD cable with no HDCP sources, I may just use the component outs from the XD and SPDIF for audio on the LCD display. Will that work without having to make changes? Then I would use HDMI output 2 to the AV receiver for audio on the RS-1.

Jrp,

very nice design idea!

There had been some reports about Gennum not passing full resolution of some contents (originally, this was recognized through the HD HQV tests), have you seen any softness caused by this issue?

Also, how much of a performance enhancement can you see (I know you can't be subjective, but since everyone's under NDA except you...) between the HDQ and the Radiance unit on SD video mode?

There had been some reports about Gennum not passing full resolution of some contents (originally, this was recognized through the HD HQV tests), have you seen any softness caused by this issue?I've reproduced a response from Gennum on this issue which was posted on AVS here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10819148&&#post10819148).Thanks for bringing this issue to our attention. Conveniently, we have just received copies of the Silicon Optix HQV HD Benchmark disc and have been able to confirm your findings - i.e. VXP not locking to the 3:2 cadence demonstrated in the "Film Resolution Loss Test".

By the way I must add, and hope you agree, that VXP has no problem locking to the "Film Resolution Loss Test - Stadium" sequence. This leads to a point I would like to make which is when developing and optimising VXP we have focused on the use of "real" content rather than test patterns that may not necessarily be representative of the real world.

One can always create a test pattern or sequence which can be demonstrated to break someone else's processing!

Having said that, due to the power and flexibility (and feedback from users such as you!) we are able to further optimise VXP to ensure sequences such as this one can be correctly processed without compromise to any other processing.

I am happy to inform you that we have been able to do just that and have found more optimal default settings for our film cadence detection.

We will be making our customers aware of these new settings and also making these the default in future releases of VXP firmware.

Haflich,

You are to retired to still be editing the law review. This forum is for slackers.

jrp,

...I may just use the component outs from the XD and SPDIF for audio on the LCD display. Will that work without having to make changes? Then I would use HDMI output 2 to the AV receiver for audio on the RS-1. ...

The Radiance has two HDMI ouputs. However, it does not have any analog outputs.

There had been some reports about Gennum not passing full resolution of some contents (originally, this was recognized through the HD HQV tests), have you seen any softness caused by this issue?

Also, how much of a performance enhancement can you see (I know you can't be subjective, but since everyone's under NDA except you...) between the HDQ and the Radiance unit on SD video mode?

First let me say that, while test patterns like the one on this disc are interesting for the engineers to use to evaluate their algorithms, these patterns should definitely NOT be used to evaluate quality for real sources. I have not received my copy of this disc yet, but it sounds like this is a "every-other-line" pattern. No real image can have this pattern, especially one that behaves/moves as this pattern is reported to do. The closest thing I can think of is a "horizontal blind." For a real source, the blind would be filtered before encoding, and the digital compression algorithms would further reduce the resolution. So, this is just not a valid test --- unless you want to spend a lot of time watching the test pattern of course ;)

That said, we will be able to update the Gennum VXP software, along with our own software and hardware algorithms in our FPGA. The hardware path to the Gennum GF9450 is the same one we already use to control the mode of the Gennum GF9450. So, as Gennum updates their software to enhance this test, we will be able to update the GF9450 software to enhance everyone's test pattern viewing experience. Hmmm ... for political correctness, let me change that to ---- as Gennum enhances their GF9450 software, we can include those updates with our normal update process.

----

As to video deinterlacing: The RadianceXD is a major step up for SD and HD video deinterlacing verses our earlier Vision line of products.

I hadn't done a direct A-B comparison before, so I just hooked up both the VisionPro HDP and the RadianceXD to the HDMI inputs of my 1080p60 JVC 70" rear-screen TV. I am using a DirecTV H20 receiver with 480i out for SD channels. I tried a couple of SD channels but settled on HGTV since it is way overcompressed and has lots of slow, rotating, pans. These tend to show lots of stairstepping without diagonal filtering. There is a dramatic improvement on the edges, and I see more details in the image, using the RadianceXD. This is with the Gennum detail enhancement and noise reduction off, so there is further enhancement to be had with the RadianceXD. Also, both the VisionPro HDP and the RadianceXD are using the Lumagen no-ring scaling, which eliminates the additional edge artifacts created by other scaling technology.

I then went to an HD channel that happened to be showing "Beauty of Snakes" which showed as a 1080i video source (using the VisionPro HDP live flag mode). There were a number of scenes of a sidewinder on desert sand. The RadianceXD had more detail in the sand and the snake than the VisionPro HDP. Again this was with the Gennum detail enhancements off.

So, while the VisionPro HDP enhances the SD and HD video image, the RadianceXD is a significant improvement.

Jim:

Any guestimate when you might start shipping Radiance non Beta units?

Jim:

Any guestimate when you might start shipping Radiance non Beta units?


Someone with the company I'm sure will chime in. About a month ago, Sept. was the target for final production units. It can't come soon enough. ;)

rboster,

jrp is from Lumagen, he's chiming in regularly :)

Jim,

Thanks!

I know that the HQV test patterns are not real world, many of the DVD ones are useful to prove that HQV algorithms work and that's it. There are some useful ones there, though.

I haven't seen the HD version either. I was mostly interested if you noticed any softness that could be attributed to such an issue.

From your answer I understand the answer is a resounding no...

Jim:

Any guestimate when you might start shipping Radiance non Beta units?

We are still shooting for late September production release.

I would like to again point out that for Lumagen "Production Release" is just one point on a continuum of enhancements. As I hope most people are aware of we are pretty unique in that we treat our products as a living, growing, tool, and not a fixed function "that's all you get" product.

In September we will look at the features we have implemented at that time and decide if we should release as production. We will continue to add features after that point, so at "production release" some of the features we are talking about may not be in the software yet.

At this point we believe the software is already very robust and picture quality is already great (There are a number of missing features of course). I am hearing from the Beta users that they are very happy with what they have already. My point in mentioning this is that as we get closer to production, the difference between Beta and production blurs, and there would be very little reason to wait for an offical release.

I am planning to drop the Beta NDA restrictions on September 1st, so people will be able to publically talk about their experiences. We will also be building more Beta units and allowing dealers to sell them - as long as the customer is aware that there has not been an offical production release.

The first production release has been pretty much spoken for, but if I get more pre-orders it will help us build enough units to meet demand. Also, a sneaky way to get a unit sooner will be to order a Beta unit from your dealer, or us directly, as we currently plan to meet the Beta demand before releasing production units. Please note that we have initially limited the number of dealers selling Beta units and yours may not yet be on the list. We can easily add them to the dealer Beta list, but they have to ask.

... I was mostly interested if you noticed any softness that could be attributed to such an issue.

Restated, I think this question is "have we noticed the Gennum falling out of film lock?" as this would be the cause of loss of resolution for the film source I think this discussion is based on.

Answer: Not that I am aware of.

However, no deinterlacer is perfect. So, here is a request to our Beta sites: If any of you has seen the Gennum fall out of film lock on film based material, please email us with the specifics. We can't look at everything, and it's a great help when our users point out issues. If any such exist on real material we could confirm the issue here and then send the info on to Gennum.

We are still shooting for late September production release.

The first production release has been pretty much spoken for, but if I get more pre-orders it will help us build enough units to meet demand. Also, a sneaky way to get a unit sooner will be to order a Beta unit from your dealer, or us directly, as we currently plan to meet the Beta demand before releasing production units. Please note that we have initially limited the number of dealers selling Beta units and yours may not yet be on the list. We can easily add them to the dealer Beta list, but they have to ask.

Jim:

Cool, have a preorder with Jason, asked him to change to Preorder Beta unit, any estimate of the pro-order Beta units shipping?

Jim:

Cool, have a preorder with Jason, asked him to change to Preorder Beta unit, any estimate of the pro-order Beta units shipping?

Probably be a unit from the August build, but potentially one from the July build. Have Jason call me as I will talak with him on how they want to proceed.

Thanks Jim will speak with Jason

Let's see. JRP gets married and now he tests SD with HGTV. Any correlation there? :)

Damon. I have no idea what you mean by your post. Rarely does a post stump me. Congratulations!

I have had my beta Radiance for over a week. Couldn't get my HD Fury to work using my Direct TV DVR. Bad breakout cable. So no point in inserting the Radiance in the chain. Got a new cable but by then my HD Fury was burnt out by me plugging in an external power supply, I think. New HD Fury on its way. Hopefully, I'll be able to view the Radiance shortly, Moome's card once again delayed, now till the end of July. Really didn't want to buy another HD Fury. BWTF. It's only money.

Probably be a unit from the August build, but potentially one from the July build. Have Jason call me as I will talak with him on how they want to proceed.

I spoke with Jason this morning. He said the pre-buy discount would not apply to the beta units. If we wanted a beta unit, we needed to talk you to directly and the assumption being at full price. Is that your understanding also or did you have something else in mind?...since I assumed you hadn't spoken with Jason early this am.

Ron

I would also like clarification as Jason said talk directly with Jim/Lumagen for Beta unit and when I Pm'd Jim he said AVS should really put the order in as they are my dealer????

..... Really didn't want to buy another HD Fury. BWTF. It's only money.

Thanks Mark, I can always count on you to bring a smile to my face! :)

Jim

I spoke with Jason this morning. He said the pre-buy discount would not apply to the beta units. If we wanted a beta unit, we needed to talk you to directly and the assumption being at full price. Is that your understanding also or did you have something else in mind?...since I assumed you hadn't spoken with Jason early this am.

Ron

I just got off the phone with Jason Turk, and I believe we have this cleared up. AVScience had not originally planned to sell Beta units. However, you can now contact Jason at AVScience if you want a Beta RadianceXD.

We are in the process of getting the NDA done with AVScience. Beta purchasers will also need to sign the Radiance Beta NDA before completing the purchase.

We do have a few July build units set aside for AVS.

I just got off the phone with Jason Turk, and I believe we have this cleared up. AVScience had not originally planned to sell Beta units. However, you can now contact Jason at AVScience if you want a Beta RadianceXD.

We are in the process of getting the NDA done with AVScience. Beta purchasers will also need to sign the Radiance Beta NDA before completing the purchase.

We do have a few July build units set aside for AVS.

Thanks, I sent a PM to Jason concerning beta units.

Ron

Hi Ron,

Anyone who is ordering a RadianceXD beta unit through a Lumagen dealer is required to sign a NDA. In order to speed up your order you can contact us dirrectly for the NDA.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Has anyone of the beta-unit users tested if the Radiance can accept a 240p (15khz non interlaced) signal via Component and/or RGBs ?

I know it's a hardly used signal, but VCD players and older videogames (PS1 or even PS1 games on PS2) do output this signal and prior Gennum processors are known NOT to be able to handle this kind signal (Crystalio II, Optoma VXP).

It would be a shame if the Radiance failed as well on this one.

Tobias

Why would it be a shame if this is rarely used feature and has little or no future market potential?

We should accept a 240p input. It gets interpeted as 480i and will work fine. The same situation applies to a 540p input. It gets interpeted as 1080i.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Sounds good, though a "will" would be better than a "should". Maybe you could check it out before the retail units ship out. All it needs is a PS2 and a old PS1 game :)

Why would it be a shame if this is rarely used feature and has little or no future market potential?
because if I buy a $4000 processor like the Radiance I'd like to use it as a switch for all machines I use and don't like running into situations where I get no output signal.

The discussion came up only recently as the earlier Virtual Console games on the Wii output 240p via YUV only which caused a lot of trouble not only with some videoprocessors, but also with quite a lot of LCD and Plasma TVs which can't show the signal either. Nintendo has later on implemented a 240p/480i (288p/576i) switch, but hasn't updated the earlier ones.

Tobias

We should accept a 240p input. It gets interpeted as 480i and will work fine. The same situation applies to a 540p input. It gets interpeted as 1080i.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman
That is too bad (although better than not receiving the signal at all). The VP50 properly handles 240p on component inputs (scaling instead of deinterlacing), and sort of handles it on composite and S-video (the scaling algorithm is correct, but frames are skipped--not sure if it's a low-quality signal coming from the consoles which is the cause, or not).

However, you can find a used XRGB-2(+), which converts 240p to 480p, to place before any video processor to compensate for this missing feature.

I've also seen 240p on a VCR menu.

Hopefully, the Radiance input hardware can at least detect the difference between 240p and 480i, so when and if a deinterlacing upgrade card is made available, the new card can be told that the input is 240p and process it accordingly, if it has that capability.

Surely it would just be like recognizing 2:2 pulldown on PAL film material? And presumably you force that input to "film" mode deinterlacing.

Surely it would just be like recognizing 2:2 pulldown on PAL film material? And presumably you force that input to "film" mode deinterlacing.
No. 240p is 60 full images per second from different moments in time, whereas 2:2 pulldown material is 30 frames per second. With 240p, scanlines for adjacent "fields" (frames) are at the same horizontal position, whereas in 480i, they are up/down the width of one scanline. (In 240p, all scanlines are either even or odd, every frame.) If 240p is treated as 480i, there is a vertical "vibration". (Similarly as if 480i were treated as 240p.) "Deinterlacing" methods intended for 480i are never the optimum handling for 240p because of the different intended vertical position of the scanlines. On a native SD CRT TV, the scanlines don't flicker or bounce up and down when displaying a 240p signal.

Got it.

Hello guys,


I haven't heard much more about the outboard DAC ?

will it still happen ?


any news ?

Thanks

Michael

At this point I haven't seen enough interest to justify the effort and cost of the "smart DAC" design I talked about on the Radiance thread - at least at this point. So, it is looking like it will be a more traditional HDMI to analog DAC design. The analog output will be on BNC connectors for best performance though.

It will support 1080p at 72 hertz. However, it will be at a reduced horizontal resolution. So you would have to choose between 1920x1080@50/60, 1600x1080@72 Hertz or 1536x1080@75.

How many interested parties would you need to make this SmartDAC feasible?

Jim:

Maybe you could take non refundable deposits for the smartdac and if you reach enough in a certain time frame go forward if not return the deposits, I for one would put up a deposit

Maybe you could take non refundable deposits for the smartdac and if you reach enough in a certain time frame go forward if not return the deposits, I for one would put up a deposit
How would that make them non-refundable?

I think he means that "if" Jim gets enough "orders" to make the project financially viable, then Lumagen procedes, and at that point the money is non-refundable. If not enough interest, then those that paid get refunded.

Jim

Exactly

No. 240p is 60 full images per second from different moments in time, whereas 2:2 pulldown material is 30 frames per second. With 240p, scanlines for adjacent "fields" (frames) are at the same horizontal position, whereas in 480i, they are up/down the width of one scanline. (In 240p, all scanlines are either even or odd, every frame.) If 240p is treated as 480i, there is a vertical "vibration". (Similarly as if 480i were treated as 240p.) "Deinterlacing" methods intended for 480i are never the optimum handling for 240p because of the different intended vertical position of the scanlines. On a native SD CRT TV, the scanlines don't flicker or bounce up and down when displaying a 240p signal.

I'm guessing that no current lumagens recognize 240p as unique from 480i in this regard? I've got a huge collection of old games that I still wish to play. Was going to invest in an Onkyo 605 or 805 but learned they molest 240p.

I was hoping lumagen might have an existing solution to this, as I'd love to play older PS1 games through HDMI on my PS3 (or VC games on Wii through component) and don't want to run every old system to my display independently, assuming the display (yet to purchase) would actually, well, display it.

Can an HQV do this? Could it do it with a firmware update? I know this is fast becoming an issue for many home theatre enthusiasts who also game. With the introduction of easy ways to play old classics on new machines the need for proper handling of 240p becomes a dealbreaker for many, including myself. I've been eyeing up an HQV for some time, and proper 240p would probably seal the deal.

As to this specific Radiance thread, my point is that if no current lumagens currently do this, or could do it with an update the Radiance should certainly add this feature.

Don't discount gamers--especially ones with a healthy dose of nostalgia! Thanks!

Jim,

You have committed to making a DAC of some sort. I really wonder how many people who need a DAC would not prefer to spend the extra on a smart DAC? I would guess that if you made both types ($400 for the lower quality and $800 for the smart DAC was the scenario you quoted) you would sell very few of the cheaper ones. I think most people who will buy a DAC would much prefer the smart type.

Martin

Count me in. I like my blonds dumb and my DACs smart!

And my swissy's cute, just picked up my Swissy Sunday, 40 LBS with Paws that look like it belongs to a lion :)

Great. Did you get it from Dan's partner? In less than 4 weeks it will weigh 50 lbs. A little later you will not be able to pick it up. My girl is about 105 lbs now. She's laying at my feet while I post. She's snores rather loudly.

Yes, Dans partner very big puppy at 4 months...

One fiqures about 20 lbs at 2 months and 40lbs at 4 months. Thy grow about 2 lbs or more every week slowing down for a female at 85, then about 1 lb a week till 100 and slowly maturing to 115. The males follow except the slow down is a little higher, getting to 105 or so rather quickly and maturing to 140.

How many interested parties would you need to make this SmartDAC feasible?

Hard to say exactly. A lot more than I believe we would sell at this point, even when I multiply the vote count up to account for sales to people not voting.

The "smart DAC" approach would take a lot of engineering, since it has an FPGA, frame buffer, in addition to a microprocessor and software, to do frame based inverse-telecine. Not as hard as a video processor for sure but still it's not a quick project.

So, I have decided to do the more traditional DAC for now. It will provide excellent quality and will support 1920x1080@50/60 with 10-bit DACs and BNC output.

I will reconsider the smart-DAC in the future, but expect to reach the same conclusion.

I'm guessing that no current lumagens recognize 240p as unique from 480i in this regard? I've got a huge collection of old games that I still wish to play. Was going to invest in an Onkyo 605 or 805 but learned they molest 240p.

... As to this specific Radiance thread, my point is that if no current lumagens currently do this, or could do it with an update the Radiance should certainly add this feature.


You are correct that at this time we do treat 240p as 480i. This has not come up as an issue much at all in the past.

This could be added to the Vision or Radiance line with a field software update. I will add this to the "things to look at" list as a possible future enhancement. This is not a commitment to do it though.

If others really want this feature, please chime in, either here or by emailing support@lumagen.com.

I would for sure choose the Radiance over the CII as my next processor if 240p (via RGBS and Component) support for old videogame systems would be properly added.

Right now I'm using a Faroudja based processor (C1) and it handles 240p quite well already, but you can definitely see that it tries to do some deinterlacing as well, since it introduces a few jumping pixels here and there where absolutely no movement is present in the original 240p source.

An important thing to remember is to reduce lagging as far as possible. Unfortunately most processors need their usual 70ms for processing no matter if 240p or 480i is supplied, which is too much to play games which require precise timing...

Hard to say exactly. A lot more than I believe we would sell at this point, even when I multiply the vote count up to account for sales to people not voting.

The "smart DAC" approach would take a lot of engineering, since it has an FPGA, frame buffer, in addition to a microprocessor and software, to do frame based inverse-telecine. Not as hard as a video processor for sure but still it's not a quick project.

So, I have decided to do the more traditional DAC for now. It will provide excellent quality and will support 1920x1080@50/60 with 10-bit DACs and BNC output.

I will reconsider the smart-DAC in the future, but expect to reach the same conclusion.


Jim,

why do you need to do inverse telecine for 72/75 Hz when fed 24/25p ?


Michael

Connection questions (with apologies if this was covered elsewhere)...will the Radiance XD have the ability to recieve a DD 2.0, DD 5.1, DD 7.1, or dts 5.1 signal via HDMI AND:

1. Transmit the encoded audio signal via digital coax; and

2. Build in the exact/necassry lip sync delay.

TI.

"1. Transmit the encoded audio signak via digital coax; and"

S/PDIF doesn't have the bandwidth for more the 2 channels of LPCM audio.

Shawn

"1. Transmit the encoded audio signak via digital coax; and"

S/PDIF doesn't have the bandwidth for more the 2 channels of LPCM audio.

Shawn


sfogg, I must not be communicating very well as I now receive an encoded signal over digital coax from both my HDTV cable box and DVD player...

That it bitstream standard DD/DTS, not multichannel linear PCM.

The high resolution formats (in decoded multichannel LPCM or bitstream) are not available over S/PDIF. Not enough bandwidth (ex. Dolby THD) and/or simply not allowed (ex. DD+).

Shawn

You are correct that at this time we do treat 240p as 480i. This has not come up as an issue much at all in the past.

This could be added to the Vision or Radiance line with a field software update. I will add this to the "things to look at" list as a possible future enhancement. This is not a commitment to do it though.

If others really want this feature, please chime in, either here or by emailing support@lumagen.com.

I'll email you as well, but thought I'd put a vote in for a 240p update--with limited lag. I've learned the VP50 does it (unadvertised) and the VP30 and VP20 may as well. Honestly I'd prefer an HQV, and 240p would seal the deal for me. Radiance is out of my league for now, so an update to the vision line would do it for me.

Thanks!

That it bitstream standard DD/DTS, not multichannel linear PCM.

The high resolution formats (in decoded multichannel LPCM or bitstream) are not available over S/PDIF. Not enough bandwidth (ex. Dolby THD) and/or simply not allowed (ex. DD+).

Shawn

Shawn:

1. Then we are in agreement as I my original post was referring to the non-high resolution formats hence the use of DD as opposed to DD+.

2. Now that we are in agreement on that point...back to the oroganal question...does the Radiance strip out the DD 5.1 soundtrack that it receives via an HDMI input and transmit it over an S/PDIF output....AND does it build in the lipsync...

TIA

why do you need to do inverse telecine for 72/75 Hz when fed 24/25p ?


One thought I had was to take 1080p60 and extract the frames. This feature is not necessary if the DAC received 24p from a video processor. However, a frame buffer and a control chip (e.g. an FPGA or other controller) would still be required.

...will the Radiance XD have the ability to recieve a DD 2.0, DD 5.1, DD 7.1, or dts 5.1 signal via HDMI AND:

1. Transmit the encoded audio signal via digital coax; and

2. Build in the exact/necassry lip sync delay.


1. We are now planning on doing this, but as a feature for sometime after production release.

2. We have built in the hardware for this implemented as a second ,smaller, FPGA with its own DRAM. So we can do lip-sync delay. I would like to point out that the Radiance is much less in need of lip-sync delay than other processors which have anywhere from 4 to 8 fields of delay for their processing. The RadianceXD has from aproximately 1.25 (genlock on) to 2.25 fields of delay, which is much less of an issue. Because of this reduced need in the RadianceXD, lip-sync is a feature we might not implement until after production.

In fact the Radiance is so fast that there is perhaps a need for video delay... please keep that possibility in mind...

Mark

I'll email you as well, but thought I'd put a vote in for a 240p update--with limited lag. ...

This has certainly been raised up in visibility this past couple of weeks. I will add this to the todo list, but it's something we won't get to until after the first production software release.

1. We are now planning on doing this, but as a feature for sometime after production release.

2. We have built in the hardware for this implemented as a second ,smaller, FPGA with its own DRAM. So we can do lip-sync delay. I would like to point out that the Radiance is much less in need of lip-sync delay than other processors which have anywhere from 4 to 8 fields of delay for their processing. The RadianceXD has from aproximately 1.25 (genlock on) to 2.25 fields of delay, which is much less of an issue. Because of this reduced need in the RadianceXD, lip-sync is a feature we might not implement until after production.


Jim,
I might be a little confused, There is audio delay on the coaxial out audio, correct?

Lip sync delay is something else, correct?

You can set an audio delay for each audio output on the Lumagen, correct?

thanks

Jim,

I know you have indicated that the Radiance will eventually incorporate a CMS that should address the oversaturation issue that aflicts the RS1. Can you tell us if the implementation will avoid banding issues?

Mike

1. We are now planning on doing this, but as a feature for sometime after production release.

2. We have built in the hardware for this implemented as a second ,smaller, FPGA with its own DRAM. So we can do lip-sync delay. I would like to point out that the Radiance is much less in need of lip-sync delay than other processors which have anywhere from 4 to 8 fields of delay for their processing. The RadianceXD has from aproximately 1.25 (genlock on) to 2.25 fields of delay, which is much less of an issue. Because of this reduced need in the RadianceXD, lip-sync is a feature we might not implement until after production.

Jim:

1. I apprecaite your feedback on my query.

2. I am looking forward to BOTH receiving my RadianceXD unit -- should happen sometime next week -- as well as seeing its feature set grow.

One thought I had was to take 1080p60 and extract the frames. This feature is not necessary if the DAC received 24p from a video processor. However, a frame buffer and a control chip (e.g. an FPGA or other controller) would still be required.

Would this be a cheaper and easier alternative?

Jim,
I might be a little confused, There is audio delay on the coaxial out audio, correct?

Lip sync delay is something else, correct?

You can set an audio delay for each audio output on the Lumagen, correct?


Not quite.

The video from any input to video output is delayed by the video processing. For the Radiance this is in the range of 20mS to 37mS (in the U.S.) depending on genlock (unless you are in game mode where the delay can be reduced by one field time).

The audio from any of the audio inputs (HDMI, analog, COAX, Optical) is essentially passed through the Lumagen without delay to either the HDMI or COAX outputs, as appropriate (i.e. No difference in delay from any audio input to any audio output).

This creates the so-called "lip-sync" delay as audio comes out ahead of the video. That is unless we artificially delay the audio to match the delay of the video processing. In other words this is "lip-sync delay correction."

There is one audio delay circuit for the Radiance so, any audio coming out of the Lumagen is delayed by exactly the same amount. However, each input can have a preprogrammed delay that is independent for each one, and in fact can have four pre-programmed delays - one for each of the four input memory configurations.

This has certainly been raised up in visibility this past couple of weeks. I will add this to the todo list, but it's something we won't get to until after the first production software release.

Wow. Just...wow. A quick response (most companies don't respond at all!) and a willingness to incorporate customer suggestions / feedback. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but damn does Lumagen rock.

Now more than ever I look forward to joining the ranks of Lumagen owners! Excited as I am for the Radiance, truthfully the Vision line is enough for my needs ATM.

Jim,

I know you have indicated that the Radiance will eventually incorporate a CMS that should address the oversaturation issue that aflicts the RS1. Can you tell us if the implementation will avoid banding issues?


The primary correction block adds a fraction of the other two color primaries to the primary being corrected. We will do this without adding banding as the amount of the other colors is a small fraction of the primary being corrected, and is linearly related to the primary being corrected.

For example, for the green primary, as we increase green, we visually add a bit of red and/or blue. The resolution/banding of green is completely unaffected as the green level changes. The red and blue are increasing as a fractional precentage of green and so do not create any banding either.

Would this be a cheaper and easier alternative?

For reference this is referring to the difference between two HDMI to analog video convertor options:
- Inputting 24p and outputting 72p
- Inputting 60p, doing correlation to extract the 24p from the 60p, and then outputting 72p.

For us, there is really no manufacturing cost difference between these. There is a development cost difference as the software and Verilog is more work for the later option, but not that much.

In fact the Radiance is so fast that there is perhaps a need for video delay... please keep that possibility in mind...
Seconded...

Not quite.

The video from any input to video output is delayed by the video processing. For the Radiance this is in the range of 20mS to 37mS (in the U.S.) depending on genlock (unless you are in game mode where the delay can be reduced by one field time).

The audio from any of the audio inputs (HDMI, analog, COAX, Optical) is essentially passed through the Lumagen without delay to either the HDMI or COAX outputs, as appropriate (i.e. No difference in delay from any audio input to any audio output).

This creates the so-called "lip-sync" delay as audio comes out ahead of the video. That is unless we artificially delay the audio to match the delay of the video processing. In other words this is "lip-sync delay correction."

There is one audio delay circuit for the Radiance so, any audio coming out of the Lumagen is delayed by exactly the same amount. However, each input can have a preprogrammed delay that is independent for each one, and in fact can have four pre-programmed delays - one for each of the four input memory configurations.

The Radiance's audio delay can be set to "NO DELAY" such that audio is immediately passed through for processing by other equipment? My audio processor (Meridian) introduces it's own delays so I need the audio ASAP in order that it's delay is not compounded by any that the Radiance enforces...

Cheers,

Mark

The primary correction block adds a fraction of the other two color primaries to the primary being corrected. We will do this without adding banding as the amount of the other colors is a small fraction of the primary being corrected, and is linearly related to the primary being corrected.

For example, for the green primary, as we increase green, we visually add a bit of red and/or blue. The resolution/banding of green is completely unaffected as the green level changes. The red and blue are increasing as a fractional precentage of green and so do not create any banding either.I would think that this could, in fact, create banding.

As an example, consider the case where you have an 8-bit image with a 256-bit wide green ramp from nominal black to 'white', and where the required color correction adds in 1 bit of red and/or blue for every 4 bits of green (i.e., the red/blue correction factor is 1/16 of the green intensity). Since you have an 8-bit resolution per component you'll effectively have a blue/red ramp which spans just a 4-bit range overlaid on top of the green ramp. In this case the green component of ramp would be unaffected and indeed not have added banding. However, there could be red/blue banding added due to the 16-pixel wide areas of blue/red in the ramp. [Edit: Corrected poor wording relating to 4-bit blue/red ramp range.]

[Edit]Now, how visible this would be depends to a significant degree on the source image. For an artificially generated image such as an intensity ramp, the banding effect would likely be most visible. However, in the case of sampled natural image material, where there will be noise in the image and variations from frame to frame, the visible effects would be reduced, perhaps to the point of not being visible at all. Most images would likely be somewhere between these two extremes.

Of course if you have a higher output bit depth the effect would be reduced, assuming that the display would actually preserve and could resolve the full bit depth of the signal. I believe this is one of the few good rationales for HDMI v1.3 on the video side, as it supports up to 16 bits per component and should pretty much eliminate visible banding in cases like that described above (still assuming the display could handle the added resolution).

There are methods to mitigate this type of banding effect, which typically involve dithering or resampling the signal, although this does add in some small amount of noise. Again, the visibility of this noise should decrease with the bit depth of the signal itself.

- Dale Adams

I'd love to play older PS1 games through HDMI on my PS3 (or VC games on Wii through component) and don't want to run every old system to my display independently, assuming the display (yet to purchase) would actually, well, display it.
The PS3 probably properly handles the 240p when using HDMI and upscales it before output, so no need for the video processor or display to support it. Same for VC games on the Wii, if you are using progressive-scan output. I have not confirmed these, however, but it is very likely.

Can an HQV do this? Could it do it with a firmware update? I know this is fast becoming an issue for many home theatre enthusiasts who also game. With the introduction of easy ways to play old classics on new machines the need for proper handling of 240p becomes a dealbreaker for many, including myself. I've been eyeing up an HQV for some time, and proper 240p would probably seal the deal.
Some (most?) HQV devices have a long video delay, which may be a problem regardless of whether they handle 240p. My Toshiba ET20 projector with the HQV Realta displays 240p but treats it as 480i.

Right now I'm using a Faroudja based processor (C1) and it handles 240p quite well already, but you can definitely see that it tries to do some deinterlacing as well, since it introduces a few jumping pixels here and there where absolutely no movement is present in the original 240p source.
What's probably happening (if you've definitively determined that it is handling 240p as 240p, not 480i) is that it's using the diagonal interpolation algorithm to produce the "other" 240 lines. The reason the speckled pixels may be happening is that very slight noise in the signal that would otherwise not be seen is causing a threshold to be jumped in the diagonal interpolation algorithm and the angle of interpolation is changing, which causes a much different color to be displayed on that pixel. The VP50, with 240p inputs, does this too. It took me some time to satisfy myself that it was really handling 240p properly because of this pixel jumping, but it is--so it must just be a noise issue.

An important thing to remember is to reduce lagging as far as possible. Unfortunately most processors need their usual 70ms for processing no matter if 240p or 480i is supplied, which is too much to play games which require precise timing...
The VP50 only does 240p handling in "Game Mode 1", which has the ultra-low latency (less than one field). :)

Seconded...

VirusKiller, as a result of inserting the Radiance in "your chain" to require any lip sync correction with your G68...I am curious as my Radiance will arrive next week and I am hoping that it alone will allow me to remove the lip sync setting in my 861...

TIA

Dale and Jrp,

I think that any color correction in a processor MUST add banding to some degree. It might not be very visible (the more bits we add, the less visible it will become), but I'm not sure it can be eliminated altogether.

So, I guess that's the trade off. Personally, I think such processing is a good idea. I prefer to decide on my own which artifact I'd prefer (banding vs. incorrect color).

Indeed,
incorrect colour is a large artefact that is visible from a significant distance compared to the bulk of de-interlacing artefacts....

Gordon

VirusKiller, as a result of inserting the Radiance in "your chain" to require any lip sync correction with your G68...I am curious as my Radiance will arrive next week and I am hoping that it alone will allow me to remove the lip sync setting in my 861...

TIA

Joel:

I am particularly interested to hear about your experience with Radiance and 861. I also own an 861 and am seriously considering chucking my HDQ in favor of Radiance as it looks like a better fit with 861 - particularly if M actually come out with the mythical HDMi input/output board.

Simon

The PS3 probably properly handles the 240p when using HDMI and upscales it before output, so no need for the video processor or display to support it. Same for VC games on the Wii, if you are using progressive-scan output. I have not confirmed these, however, but it is very likely.
I haven't jumped into owning an HDTV yet so most of my info is gleaned from these forums. Multiple people have complained about their televisions "going blank" or being "completely distorted" when switching from PS3 to PS1 (via emulation). Same for Wii to VC. The explanation was the lack of proper handling of 240p. So in some cases it's not an issue of improper deinterlacing, it's that some sets refuse to display 240p. A VP in the chain should hopefully fix this problem.

This issue "popped up" (ha ha!) quite a bit in the threads about the new Onkyo receivers (of which I'm on the fence about).

Thanks for all your other info!

Will the SDI/HDMI adapter be available at broad Radiance launch?

Simon

Joel:

I am particularly interested to hear about your experience with Radiance and 861. I also own an 861 and am seriously considering chucking my HDQ in favor of Radiance as it looks like a better fit with 861 - particularly if M actually come out with the mythical HDMi input/output board.

Simon

I am also particularly interested to hear how the 861/Radiance combo works. I suspect the Radiance is so fast that the video will come before the sound and that we will need a video delay rather than an audio delay!

Mark

I am also particularly interested to hear how the 861/Radiance combo works. I suspect the Radiance is so fast that the video will come before the sound and that we will need a video delay rather than an audio delay!

Mark
Nice one :eek: :eek:

ca1ore and mark_h:

Although I would love to sahre my experience with you this will be impossible as I have signed a NDA unless (i) you too have signed a NDA and (ii) Lumagen gives me permission to discuss this with you...hopefull someone from Lumagen will chime in on this...

Joel's buying a chick magnet!

I really like my Radiance. Highly recommended.

Just to clarify: My video is going directly to the Radiance. My audio is going directly to my Meridian G68. I believe that the minimum audio latency introduced by my G68 *may* be greater than the video latency introduced by the Radiance. Hence the probable need for a video delay parameter.

With my current setup (Meridian 861/ProHDP) I use the following delays:

HD-DVD: 4ms
Blu-Ray: 3ms
DVD: 36ms

Jim has stated that the Radiance is much faster than the current range. This means that the delays for the HD software (and perhaps even SD) is very likely to drop below 0ms, ie video will arrive before audio. And this is with an audio processor which introduces significant delays due to processing -on lesser processors, with lesser audio delays, this problem will be more pronounced.

Of course, until I get my Radiance this is all speculation, but I am very concerned about this as I will not be able to live with such an issue - perhaps we are entering a new era where video processing is simply TOO fast! :eek:

Mark

Joel's buying a chick magnet!

Mark, exactly the reason for purchasing the RadianceXD...

With my current setup (Meridian 861/ProHDP) I use the following delays:

HD-DVD: 4ms
Blu-Ray: 3ms
DVD: 36ms

Jim has stated that the Radiance is much faster than the current range. This means that the delays for the HD software (and perhaps even SD) is very likely to drop below 0ms, ie video will arrive before audio. And this is with an audio processor which introduces significant delays due to processing -on lesser processors, with lesser audio delays, this problem will be more pronounced.

Of course, until I get my Radiance this is all speculation, but I am very concerned about this as I will not be able to live with such an issue - perhaps we are entering a new era where video processing is simply TOO fast! :eek:

Mark

This is obviously a serious problem and will, if not corrected, make the RadianceXD useless to me unless fixed...it is terribly annoying watching movies/sports/etc. with a lipsync issue...I do hope that Jim, Pat, etc. address this and do so shortly.

The one thing that I do not understand is your comment re: lesseer processors...I would of thought that lesser processor --> less processing --> audio arrives faster --> less of a problem keeping up with faster video (i.e. the opposite of what you have).

For all those that have signed an NDA I will post my finding of the Radiance/861 combination on Gordon's beta tester forum until we are allowed to cut loose here...

The one thing that I do not understand is your comment re: lesseer processors...I would of thought that lesser processor --> less processing --> audio arrives faster --> less of a problem keeping up with faster video (i.e. the opposite of what you have).

Good catch - I got that backwards - faster audio processors will of course have less of an issue.

Mark

ca1ore and mark_h:

Although I would love to sahre my experience with you this will be impossible as I have signed a NDA unless (i) you too have signed a NDA and (ii) Lumagen gives me permission to discuss this with you...hopefull someone from Lumagen will chime in on this...

Yes, good point - Mark Haflich pointed that out to me also!

I guess I will have to buy the Radiance/become a beta tester so that I can decide whether to buy the Radiance :rolleyes:

I do not find audio/video synch to be an issue with my HDQ (with no lip synch delay set on my 861) so am worried that if the Radiance is indeed faster than HDQ I will have a problem with video ahead of audio.

simon

One thing to keep in mind in the audio/video synch discussion is that you're much less likely to have a perceptual problem when the video leads the audio than vice versa. In the real world it's very often the case that the sound from a particular event lags your sight of that event due to the transmission speed differentials between sound and light. The reverse, however, virtually never happens.

Our brains have to adjust to the first case (sound after sight) all the time and do so quite well unless the sound lag becomes very large. They never have to deal with the second case, and so it's a very unnatural experience and therefore much more noticeable. You may well find that your brain just tunes out an audio lag less than a few tens of milliseconds.

Which brings up an interesting point. When events happen on screen which are in the viewing distance, our brains would expect that the sound from those events should be delayed and lag the video. I haven't personally noticed (one way or the other) that video or movie sound is mixed this way. Does anyone here know if this is done or not when, say, the sound track for a motion picture is created?

- Dale Adams

Jim, if it becomes necessary...is video delay even possilbe???

Dale, I can see 0.5ms delay problems because I'm used to my audio being synced precisely...

Mark

Dale, I can see 0.5ms delay problems because I'm used to my audio being synced precisely...Back when I was implementing the audio delay function for the iScan HD I used a number of different DVD players for testing. I found that all of them, to some degree at least, had a different A/V synch between different instances of playing the exact same video clip. This varied between players from a few milliseconds to nearly a whole frame. If you can perceive a half-millisecond difference, how do you deal with a situation like this?

- Dale Adams

I think you can buffer anything that you want. Assuming a digital output steam one could go into a buffer box and set the video delay to sync with the video. Whether it could be done with the stuff already in the Radiance, I haven't a clue and if I had a clue my NDA would prevent me from saying. MyDVR will delay video for an awfully long tome as well. :)

Back when I was implementing the audio delay function for the iScan HD I used a number of different DVD players for testing. I found that all of them, to some degree at least, had a different A/V synch between different instances of playing the exact same video clip. This varied between players from a few milliseconds to nearly a whole frame. If you can perceive a half-millisecond difference, how do you deal with a situation like this?

- Dale Adams

Dale, I have seen the same thing. Typically I will adjust the lipsync during the first moments of the film to get things dialled in. My Creston touchpanel has some hard buttons on it which are programmed to adjust lipsync on my Meridian 861 without needing the panel to light up (and disturbing other viewers). I find that *if* sync requires adjustment it's usually on one or two "clicks" either way unless a disc is particularly poorly mastered.

I wish I'd never spotted lip-sync delays - it's one thing that drives me nuts and as I said, once you have a calibrated system it's very easy to spot when sync is off by even a very small amount.

Mark

Dale, I have seen the same thing. Typically I will adjust the lipsync during the first moments of the film to get things dialled in. My Creston touchpanel has some hard buttons on it which are programmed to adjust lipsync on my Meridian 861 without needing the panel to light up (and disturbing other viewers). I find that *if* sync requires adjustment it's usually on one or two "clicks" either way unless a disc is particularly poorly mastered.Sounds like a good solution. I didn't realize you tweaked it for every film. Too bad the industry hasn't come up with some sort of calibration signal on a disc which would allow automatic alignment of audio and video.

I wish I'd never spotted lip-sync delays - it's one thing that drives me nuts and as I said, once you have a calibrated system it's very easy to spot when sync is off by even a very small amount.I've heard other forum members say much the same thing about video artifacts like CUE - i.e., they wish they'd never noticed the artifacts. I have a similar issue with combing, although in my case I'm sure it comes from having developed deinterlacing algorithms, chips and systems (so it's a feature, not a bug! :D ).

- Dale Adams

I think you can buffer anything that you want. Assuming a digital output steam one could go into a buffer box and set the video delay to sync with the video. Whether it could be done with the stuff already in the Radiance, I haven't a clue and if I had a clue my NDA would prevent me from saying.This would be relatively easy to do in whole-frame increments, provided that you have enough frame buffer memory available. The way DRAM chips are sized these days -- i.e., for computer main memory -- it's likely that there is plenty of memory available. Bandwidth is the more typical problem. Jim would have to tell us for sure, though.

- Dale Adams

I have a Lumagen Vision Pro HDP, a DVI display, and a Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1. I am experiencing a minor glitch while attempting to get the HD1 to send out YCbCr to the Lumagen.

Lumagen settings: I am using the "User" setting in the EDID menu. I have YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2 both set to "yes".

Pioneer settings: In the "HDMI Color" menu, I have the "YCbCr" selected.

The above combination of settings works, and I get a picture using either the YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2 settings on the DVI input of the Lumagen.

However, when I power the player off then on again, I get a greenish screen, and I have to go into the HD1's menu and re-select "YCbCr", even though it remains highlighted.

I was also wondering which setting on the Lumagen (YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2) would (or should) provide a better picture? I realize that YCbCr has to be transcoded to RGB before going to the display, but am thinking it is better to let the Lumagen make that conversion. Does that make sense?

Thanks for any input.

Mark

I didn't realize you tweaked it for every film.

7 times out of 10 I don't need to adjust at all and lip-sync is spot on, but there are occasions when I need to adjust and I can do it as previously described. The HD formats seem much more consistent than DVD in that respect, but you still get the odd disc, including high profile titles such as The Matrix, which have issues.

Cheers,

Mark

On Gamut correction and banding.

I have to disagree with Dale and Offer on this one. There is of course an intrinsic limit on color resolution using a 10-bit pipeline. However, I believe there really will not be any additional banding created by the color Gamut control. My reasoning is as follows:

Dale and I agree that the primary color being corrected is not affected, so the discussion becomes one about the other two primaries.

Again using Green correction as the example, the amount of, say, red (ignoring blue for the moment) added would be green*red_correction_value/1024. If the adder for red is 21 parts in 1024 (about 2%), then this implies red' = red + green * 21 / 1024 (since this is an integer pipeline the divide is really just a shift of the data right by 10 binary places). If green increased by 5 from say 500 to 505, then red is increased by 0.1 of a single bit change. In other words the slope of the red change is much less than the green change.

If we add this in and round to 10-bits, than the maximum error is 0.5 of the "least-significant-bit" (LSB) at 10-bit resolution. So, if you think 10-bit does not have visible banding, then there is no additional banding caused by this block of logic.

We might even dither the result back to 10-bits or leave it at 12-bit in this part of the piepline and then dither to 8, 10, or leave it at 12, just before output. We have not finalized implementation details yet though.

In any case the maximum quantization error for this function is 0.5 LSB of two of the three primaries, and no change for the third, so no banding.

On lip-sync delay:

I believe Mark is referencing to his CRT projector when he talkes about delaying video. These have no internal delay. Since most digital displays tend to have a frame buffer and therefore one, or more, frames of additional delay, the nominal case in the digital display world we find ourselves in is video lags audio after the video is processed (this applies even if the video is processed in the display with no external video processor present).

There is a chance we could add a single frame of optional extra video delay (16/20 mS), but we would need to work on this after production. No way to add more than this due to the amount of DRAM we have in the RadianceXD. I am willing to put this on the under consideration list, but we may not be adding this feature.

I have a Lumagen Vision Pro HDP, a DVI display, and a Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1. ...
when I power the player off then on again, I get a greenish screen, and I have to go into the HD1's menu and re-select "YCbCr", even though it remains highlighted. ...

I was also wondering which setting on the Lumagen (YCbCr 4:4:4 or YCbCr 4:2:2)

NOTE: This answer is for the Vision series and not the Radiance.

Sounds like the HD1 is not properly re-reading the EDID. Not much we can do if it doesn't do this correctly other than to suggest you stay with RGB.

Sending the Lumagen VisionPro HDP YCbCr as either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 , may be better than RGB, as the VisionPro HDP converts RGB inputs to 4:2:2 for processing. However, it depends on what the player does and the difference is small at most if the player does a good job converting from YCbCr to RGB. Sending 4:2:2 to the Lumagen means the player does not need to upsample forom 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 or RGB, which might be slightly better.

You might want to evaluate 4:2:2 verses RGB to the VisionPro HDP and see if you can see a difference, and then decide if the HD1's not recovering well is worth the effrort verses using RGB to the VisionPro HDP.

So, if you think 10-bit does not have visible banding, then there is no additional banding caused by this block of logic.I'm not sure Jim and I really differ on this all that much.

If the working premise is that 10-bit video does not show banding -- i.e., that a viewer cannot distinguish between two side-by-side regions which differ only by 1 LSB -- then by definition you won't have banding with a properly generated 10-bit resolution output. The only way this could happen is if the multiplication and rounding logic is implemented incorrectly, and I don't think there's much (if any) chance of that happening.

I'm not sure I completely buy into the basic premise. But regardless, in the case where the output is 4:4:4, the output is reduced to only 8-bit resolution as that's all the Radiance's HDMI output port supports for a 4:4:4 output (e.g., RGB).

I don't think anyone here would argue that an 8-bit video signal won't show a visible demarcation between large regions with a 1 LSB difference. And unless you dither the signal and/or add a noise component to it, the calculated red and blue signals will sometimes have a well-defined, visible 1 LSB change between adjacent regions. These regions will be substantially larger than green regions (which generate them) which differ by only 1 LSB due to the relatively small percentage of green which is added to the red and/or blue signals. So, even a green ramp which steps by 1 LSB per pixel location will show banding in red and/or blue as the red/blue regions which differ by only 1 LSB will be much broader than green regions.

With a 10-bit output I think it's arguable whether you would see this or not. It will depend on the source material and the display used. With a 12-bit output, this discussion is probably moot. However, with an 8-bit output, I think there's a very real chance of visible banding in the output unless care is taken in how that 8-bit output is generated (i.e., how the resampling from an internal 10-bit or 12-bit format to the 8-bit output is performed).

- Dale Adams

On lip-sync delay:

I believe Mark is referencing to his CRT projector when he talkes about delaying video.

Jim I moved on from my CRT last year. I am now running a digital projector (Projection Design Cineo 3+ 1080)...

Mark

I haven't jumped into owning an HDTV yet so most of my info is gleaned from these forums. Multiple people have complained about their televisions "going blank" or being "completely distorted" when switching from PS3 to PS1 (via emulation). Same for Wii to VC. The explanation was the lack of proper handling of 240p. So in some cases it's not an issue of improper deinterlacing, it's that some sets refuse to display 240p. A VP in the chain should hopefully fix this problem.
But did the problems still occur from the PS3 over HDMI, and from the Wii, when set to progressive-scan output? I agree they would occur from either system over component when set to 480i output (or otherwise, a mode in which the video switches to 240p).

and from the Wii, when set to progressive-scan output?
actually yes, since many of the VC games don't support progressive Scan YUV output. They automatically switch the Wii back to 480i/240p.

Nintendo implemented a 240p/480i switch in some downloads.

While awaiting the Lumagen Radiance I have question regarding HD-SDI output of my HD-DVD player, what would be the general consensus, which would produce the best results, HDMI out of the player into the Radiance HDMI input or Hd-SDI output of the HD DVD player converted to HDMI using a converter like this http://www.aja.com/pdf/support/AJA_manual_HI5.pdf

Thanks for looking

While awaiting the Lumagen Radiance I have question regarding HD-SDI output of my HD-DVD player, what would be the general consensus, which would produce the best results, HDMI out of the player into the Radiance HDMI input or Hd-SDI output of the HD DVD player converted to HDMI using a converter like this http://www.aja.com/pdf/support/AJA_manual_HI5.pdf

Why not get the Pro version which will have HD-SDI inputs?

Have it on order but in the interim before the pro is released

Dale, I can see 0.5ms delay problems because I'm used to my audio being synced precisely...

Mark

The speed of sound in air is 1128 feet/second, give or take. This means that if you moved your head more than 6.8" closer to or further from the screen, you would detect incorrect lipsync. There would only be one row in the cinema that provided you with correct lipsync (and you might have to sit on the backrest of a seat, or stand on the floor to get it). Moreover, if you were listening to someone talking, moving more than 6.8 inches closer or further away from the talker would cause you to perceive incorrect "lipsync" in this live situation. Your claim of sensitivity to 0.5 ms of lipsync strains credibility.

DOes this processor or (any other Lumagens) have the ability to move subtitles off of the black bars into the picture (as some PJs do) for CIH set ups???

No. This can only be done in the players?

Mark

But presumably it could be done in a VP...

Even if the VP could detect subtitles (should be possible with some clever software) how would it know what image detail was supposed to be behind them?

Mark

I'm making assumptions such as subtitles being on a black background below the main feature. I'm no expert, but presumably a VP could recognize this, adjust the background to true black, and superimpose the subtitles higher up.

Ah, now *that* should be very doable...

The long-term solution is for the players to either offer movable subtitles (and we are seeing some which can do that) or for the software providers to stop putting subtitles in the black bars altogether and put them in the film where they should be.

Mark

This isn't trivial to do. It would make a lot more sense to pester the maker of whatever player you're using to update their firwmare to support this - it should be easy for them.

I have no use for this feature that would take up a lot of Lumagen's time if they decided to implement it (I presume), and there are far more urgent functions that need to go up. Ex: separate DD/dts from hdmi stream to send it to coax/spdif output - we already know that crucial feature will only be implemented after production is released.

Now, if modern players send the subtitles in such a way that it can be easily fetched from the overall stream, that's a different story. Maybe Jim can chime in if it is ever done that way?

Ah, now *that* should be very doable...

The long-term solution is for the players to either offer movable subtitles (and we are seeing some which can do that) or for the software providers to stop putting subtitles in the black bars altogether and put them in the film where they should be.

Mark

No thanks! ;)

At least if it's in the black you *could* figure out a way to pull it out and put it somewhere else but if it's on the print you have no chance. It is the *player* that needs to adjust to user requirements but certainly should default to the bottom black (presuming it's not hard burnt into the original image).

Most of the world does not live with CIH at home. :)

If you want full control then use a PC for playback or pick a rare player that can do this, personally I'd rather not loose picture quality to some nasty font plastered all over the active image area. :)

When you play a 2.35 letterboxed movie a normal DVD player inserts the first line of the subtitle into the image and the second line of the subtitle into the black bar below the image. There is no way for the video processor to move the subtitle. You need to use one of the few DVD players that can position both lines of the subtitle inside the image. Or you can play the movie on a HTPC. Some common video players used on HTPC's allow you to change the position of the subtitle.

The other solution is to use the Lumagen Top Left and Bottom Right input size settings to display the image plus the second line of the subtitle. If you do this you might want to overscan the top of the image by 5% instead of the normal 1.5% to try to maintain the correct aspect ratio for the image.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

With a little help from my Chicago office there is now a Lumagen RadianceXD in Canada...jrp or patrick, am I the first Canadian to have one?...that said, getting the unit through customs was not a trivial task.

Very much looking forward to weekend when I will be able to hook it up and start playing a little...that said, quick question -- has the audio software been implemented yet or is this part of the future functionality that is yet to be implemented as this will impact my wiring...

And wow -- great package job...very well done!

Joel, I hear about Canadian customs all the time... what's the deal? Just curious.

Joel, I hear about Canadian customs all the time... what's the deal? Just curious.

It seems -- at least based on my experience -- that their mission is to make the importer's life as miserable as possible...case in point, I had to explain to them (and it toook two days to do so) that because the unit was manufactured in the USA that under NAFTA no duties were to be levied which amazed me because you would think that they would know this far better than me but evidently this is not the case...baffled is an understatement as to how I feel...anyways, I have the unit and and am thrilled and, knowing Jim, Patrick, et. al. it was well worth thetwo days of grief...

Hi Joel,

Congratulations on having the first Radiance in Canada.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

With a little help from my Chicago office there is now a Lumagen RadianceXD in Canada...jrp or patrick, am I the first Canadian to have one?...that said, getting the unit through customs was not a trivial task.

Very much looking forward to weekend when I will be able to hook it up and start playing a little...that said, quick question -- has the audio software been implemented yet or is this part of the future functionality that is yet to be implemented as this will impact my wiring...

And wow -- great package job...very well done!

Joel:
Our Canadian distributor, In Tandem Canada, has one, but is only demoing it, and is not selling Beta units yet (I believe anyway). So, as far as I know you are the first end-user with one.

The audio switching is not yet in the software. We are working on it as one of the top priorities though.

Thanks for the positive comment on the case design.

It's a very slick design, still pining for a black fascia though. Have you made any progress with your investigations Jim?

Tim

It's a very slick design, still pining for a black fascia though. Have you made any progress with your investigations Jim?

I have two boxes of front panels prepaired and sitting on the floor outside my office. I just need to find the time to get them to the anodizer. Then I need to get them out for laser etch.

It's a very slick design, still pining for a black fascia though. Have you made any progress with your investigations Jim?

Tim

+1
I've got everything else in black now. Will just have to live with the Radiance as is if not possible.

I have two boxes of front panels prepaired and sitting on the floor outside my office. I just need to find the time to get them to the anodizer. Then I need to get them out for laser etch.

That's great news. The silver panel appears to be silk screened, any particular reason why you're going to laser etch the black ones (not that I'm complaining, I think it will look great.)

Tim

That's great news. The silver panel appears to be silk screened, any particular reason why you're going to laser etch the black ones (not that I'm complaining, I think it will look great.)

We currently laser etch text for our black anodized units. So, mostly this is staying with what we have. We also silk-screen text on some units (e.g. VisionHDP), but I do like the laser etch look a bit better myself.

We currently laser etch text for our black anodized units. So, mostly this is staying with what we have. We also silk-screen text on some units (e.g. VisionHDP), but I do like the laser etch look a bit better myself.

I should say a big thanks for this - I've had the HDQ for a year and I've been really impressed with the fixes you've put in place, in many cases to sort out shortcomings in other peoples' products. It's great to come across a manufacturer that truly listens to its customers and gives them what they need in an industry where products have become commodities.

Tim

Jim:

Any update on when AVS pre-buys should expect delivery of their evaluation units?

Pre-buys won't get evaluation units, we'll get production units with non-beta software.

So the question is; is the September time frame for official release of the XD still realistic?

Not exaclty Dave, some have asked for evaluation units I know I have

I see but in that case you won't get the pre-buy price. As I understand it anyway :-)

NOTE: This answer is for the Vision series and not the Radiance.

Sounds like the HD1 is not properly re-reading the EDID. Not much we can do if it doesn't do this correctly other than to suggest you stay with RGB.

Sending the Lumagen VisionPro HDP YCbCr as either 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 , may be better than RGB, as the VisionPro HDP converts RGB inputs to 4:2:2 for processing. However, it depends on what the player does and the difference is small at most if the player does a good job converting from YCbCr to RGB. Sending 4:2:2 to the Lumagen means the player does not need to upsample forom 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 or RGB, which might be slightly better.

You might want to evaluate 4:2:2 verses RGB to the VisionPro HDP and see if you can see a difference, and then decide if the HD1's not recovering well is worth the effrort verses using RGB to the VisionPro HDP.

Jim, thanks for your reply to my issue with the Lumagen Vision Pro HDP, a DVI display, and a Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1. I have determined the BDP-HD1 will not send out YCbCr 4:2:2 correctly; the picture has a slight green hue. However, YCbCr 4:4:4 works correctly from the BDP-HD1

I didn't notice this before because I was viewing program material which I have never seen before. As soon as I saw the beginning of a movie I recognized, I realized something was wrong.

The funny thing is, my wife was telling me last week "It looks green, something is wrong", and I was like "Nah, that's the way this movie is". LOL I apologized to her tonight. By the way, the movie that was in when she said that was Blackhawk Down.

For reference:

Lumagen settings: I am using the "User" setting in the EDID menu. I have YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2 both set to "yes".

Pioneer settings: In the "HDMI Color" menu, I have the "YCbCr" selected.

Perhaps this might assist any of you that have a BDP-HD1.

Mark

Jim,

I have a few questions for you. I'm sorry of these have already been answered but this thread was getting so long I didn't know where to start looking.

I have an application coming up where we are going to be blending two 9" CRT's with a Analog Way blender which will split the video into two videos with an overlapping blend zone. On of the issues with this blender is one setup per input. What this means is one size, shift, resolution, blend area etc for a specific physical input .
The issue I am having with that is how to handle multiple aspect rations on a 2.35 screen. Obviously this will be a constant height setup with 2.35 filling the screen and 1.78 having black bars on either side.
So the thought was to set up user memories for a given source input. In these user memories we would adjust the size so that for a 2.35 input we would have 2.35 A/R out and for a 1.78 image on the same source we would output 1.78. So lets say for example I have a DTV receiver that is 1080i and I run HDMI into your box, deinterlace to 1080P and output HDMI. For user memory 1 I might set it up 2.35 which is then sent to the blender and outputs via two projectors to a 2.35 screen. Now I turn to a channel where the source is also 1080i, but 16:9. So I want to output to the blender 1080P via say user memory 2 with the same timing elements as I had for the 2.35 but with the appropriate black bars on either side of the picture so that displayed on the screen I have a 16:9 picture.
I think the key question I am trying to ask is will the timing elements (ie porches, active pixels, etc) be the same in both cases??

Thanks for your help.

Terry

Is there any news on when people are going to be released from the NDA?
How firm and when are the non beta units supposed to ship
I am on the list for one
thanks

Pre-buys won't get evaluation units, we'll get production units with non-beta software.

So the question is; is the September time frame for official release of the XD still realistic?

I think you can get a Beta through AVS for their pre-buy now. Originally they were only going to ship when we hit production, but recently we have shipped several Beta units to AVS customers. Please check with AVS on this.

I don't think we will quite make an offical release in September. We should be close, but we - as seems usual now - had a couple of chips not behave themselves as they were spec'd to do and had to find ways to get them to perform as spec'd. I think this is behind us, but we have a good size list of remaining work at this point.

I have an application coming up where we are going to be blending two 9" CRT's with a Analog Way blender ...

Terry:

Assuming I am getting your question and while I am not familiar with this blender:

You should be able to use one setup with the Radiance (or any Lumagen video processor). Set the output to 1080p59.94 (or 50) and the output aspect to 2.35. Then when you select the input aspect of 16:9, we put up the side bars. When you select 2.35 we fill the screen.

If this doesn't cover it, please email us at support@lumagen.com

Thank you Jim.....that's what I suspected and think I am looking for.

Terry

Question: will the Radiance keep all the HDMI inputs active at the same time?

That would be very useful to prevent the loss of HDCP handshaking that happens when you change source.

With most PJs or processors, it's impossible to compare HD-DVD and Blu-ray for example, switching makes the player stop playing.

Old question but the answer to this is yes. The Radiance has a HDMI receiving chip for each input so that it can keep all links up.

Shawn

Jim:

How does the Radiance handle a RGB HDMI input from Blu-Ray,would there be any conversion to YCbCr during processing, also would it output RGB HDMI or convert to YCbCr HDMI output?

I apologise if this has been covered before but I have 2 questions.

Will the Radiance accept a 1080p/24 signal, process it (aspect ratio etc) and again output a stable 1080p/24 signal?

Is it posssible (as does the VP50) to have user definable aspect ratios? I am particularly interested in 2.40:1 so I can fill my screen without small top and bottom bars. I use a Prismasonic 1500 lens in an anamorphic setup.

Yes, the Radiance is spec'ed to accept a 1080p/24 signal, process it (aspect ratio etc) and again output a stable 1080p/24 signal.

The user setting for output aspect ratio will accept entries from 1.10 to 2.50.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

I think you can get a Beta through AVS for their pre-buy now. Originally they were only going to ship when we hit production, but recently we have shipped several Beta units to AVS customers. Please check with AVS on this.

I don't think we will quite make an offical release in September. We should be close, but we - as seems usual now - had a couple of chips not behave themselves as they were spec'd to do and had to find ways to get them to perform as spec'd. I think this is behind us, but we have a good size list of remaining work at this point.Is there any upgrade program for an HDQ?

We plan to continue our trade in program for customers who want to upgrade to a new Lumagen video processor. The current plan is to offer a trade in value of 33% of the retail price of the HDQ when you purchase a new RadianceXD.

There has always been some market demand for used Lumagen's. You probably can easily sell your used HDQ to a private party.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Randy
How would you recommend I purchase one from Australia?

We plan to continue our trade in program for customers who want to upgrade to a new Lumagen video processor. The current plan is to offer a trade in value of 33% of the retail price of the HDQ when you purchase a new RadianceXD.
Do you offer trade-ins for processors from competing brands?

Hi, first post for me and I am completely new to VP and all the technical information involved with it. I am considering buying a VP and need some guidance from you knowledgeable people. I have a Hitachi VG825 series LCD rear projection TV with a native resolution of 720P but can also choose 1080I. I use a Dish Network VP622 HD receiver. I am looking to buy a new Pre/Pro receiver, likely an Integra DTC-9.8 with HDMI 1.3 and has an HQV video processor which I believe does not have user adjustability. I hope to be upgrading to a new Pioneer Elite Kuro Plasma in the next year. At some point in time (after the dust settles) I will be getting a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player. Because HD content is still very limited we watch a lot of “regular” TV through the Dish Receiver and OTA antenna. After reading this forum is seems that Lumagen makes a fine product and offers great service and updates.
Now the questions. Which product is right for me? How difficult is it for a beginner to grasp, understand, and properly setup one of these products. What can I truly expect to gain from this purchase now and with my future TV and Blu, / HD DVD upgrades? Please be gentle with technical terms because I do not understand most of it. Thanks in advance for you much needed assistance.
Mike

Do you offer trade-ins for processors from competing brands?
This VP50 owner also would like an answer to this Q.

Do you offer trade-ins for processors from competing brands?95% certain the answer is no. I think Jim stated so earlier in this thread.

Randy

I would like to be the (probably) first Radiance XD owner in Denmark :)

Is it possible to get a Beta unit in my country?

Would like to move on from my DVDO VP50 (not too fond of their lack of support).

PS. I have sent an E-mail to your support asking about this also.

Regards
Martin

Do you offer trade-ins for processors from competing brands?

This VP50 owner also would like an answer to this Q.

Me three, I'm beginning to feel like a drug addict WRT DVDO due to their tradein program. :D

Jim,

Aren't we all drug addicts with this hobby? I HAVE to have a new scaler..no honey, the old one isn't any good now :D

Jim,

Aren't we all drug addicts with this hobby? I HAVE to have a new scaler..no honey, the old one isn't any good now :D

Yep!! :D

Randy
How would you recommend I purchase one from Australia?

CraigN - you can contact Scott at Amber Technology on 02 9452 8600 . There is a beta unit in Australia at the moment.

Me three, I'm beginning to feel like a drug addict WRT DVDO due to their tradein program. :D

Me four....

I'm almost positive there is no trade in program for competitor's products. Since the trade in even for Lumagen products is 1/3 of MSRP, you are better off selling your unit.

It would appear that someone beat me to that…. Cal.... I was going to put mine up for sale with my SDI 981as a combo deal, and guess what I saw... you sneaky bugger. I wish you would have asked for more too. :D

Hello,

I too am considering making the change from DVDO.

I have a question about the Radiance that I was not able to find the answer to on the Lumagen site.

Will the Radiance auto-detect the inputs? So for example, my cable box is on all the time, but when I turn on my PS3, my VP30 automatically changes the active input to the PS3 because it is ranked higher priority in the "auto-input-sensing" list.

Will the Radiance do this?

Thanks

Hello,

I too am considering making the change from DVDO.

I have a question about the Radiance that I was not able to find the answer to on the Lumagen site.

Will the Radiance auto-detect the inputs? So for example, my cable box is on all the time, but when I turn on my PS3, my VP30 automatically changes the active input to the PS3 because it is ranked higher priority in the "auto-input-sensing" list.

Will the Radiance do this?

Thanks

There is no auto-detect

I notice that several people have asked questions about where to purchase a Lumagen product in other countries. Please direct these questions to sales@lumagen.com

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Jim:

How does the Radiance handle a RGB HDMI input from Blu-Ray,would there be any conversion to YCbCr during processing, also would it output RGB HDMI or convert to YCbCr HDMI output?

We process internally in YCbCr.

Unless you have a PC source, the source is encoded in YCbCb, so YCbCr will be the best way to send it to the RadianceXD. We have the YCbCr input formats in the Beta software at this point.

We also suggest the output use YCbCr 4:2:2 to drive an HDMI display/projector. This will allow up to 12-bits being sent to the display. We process at 10-bits, but will have 12-bits out of the palette that does grayscale and gamma. If gamma correction is being applied having the full 12-bits of the HDMI 4:2:2 format is nice to have whne uning gamma correction. We will also dither to 10-bit or even 8-bit with the 4:2:2 output format. The 4:2:2 output format is not in the Beta software yet.

Since it seems most (All?) current generation diplay and projectors have a color/hue even for RGB input mode, they need to conver the RGB to YCbCr internally to do this.. So, in this case, using 4:2:2 from the RadianceXD will eliminate a conversion inside the display.

Do you offer trade-ins for processors from competing brands?

We do not have an official program. However, I am happy to discuss specific cases if you give me a call (503-574-2211) or email me at support@lumagen.com

Hello,

I too am considering making the change from DVDO.

I have a question about the Radiance that I was not able to find the answer to on the Lumagen site.

Will the Radiance auto-detect the inputs? So for example, my cable box is on all the time, but when I turn on my PS3, my VP30 automatically changes the active input to the PS3 because it is ranked higher priority in the "auto-input-sensing" list.

Will the Radiance do this?

Thanks

As noted by cal87, there is no auto detect. It has come up in discussions recently, and we would like to hear how many people need this feature. We could add it to our list if there is a lot of interest.

Hi, first post for me and I am completely new to VP and all the technical information involved with it. I am considering buying a VP and need some guidance from you knowledgeable people. I have a Hitachi VG825 series LCD rear projection TV with a native resolution of 720P but can also choose 1080I. I use a Dish Network VP622 HD receiver. I am looking to buy a new Pre/Pro receiver, likely an Integra DTC-9.8 with HDMI 1.3 and has an HQV video processor which I believe does not have user adjustability. I hope to be upgrading to a new Pioneer Elite Kuro Plasma in the next year. At some point in time (after the dust settles) I will be getting a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player. Because HD content is still very limited we watch a lot of “regular” TV through the Dish Receiver and OTA antenna. After reading this forum is seems that Lumagen makes a fine product and offers great service and updates.
Now the questions. Which product is right for me? How difficult is it for a beginner to grasp, understand, and properly setup one of these products. What can I truly expect to gain from this purchase now and with my future TV and Blu, / HD DVD upgrades? Please be gentle with technical terms because I do not understand most of it. Thanks in advance for you much needed assistance.
Mike

Hi Mike:

Some of our Lumagen users may want to chime in, but I thought I would make a couple of points.

- Basic setup is not difficult to pick up and you can email or call our support line with questions.

- We offer a lot of calibration and setup features. Some of these are pretty easy to pick up on, but others require special training and equipment. So, we always recommend a professional calibration. A lot of people on this forum are technical enough that they do their own setup and calibration.

- Getting a calibration disc (e.g. AVIA or Digital Video Essentials), and watching the tutorial again and again until you are sick of it can help with the first step up on the learning curve.

- The Vision series is a great starting point. We believe our VisionHDP at $1199 (in USA) is still the least expensive video processor with both per-pixel video deinterlacing and inverse telecine for film for 1080i sources. Either the VisionHDP or VisionHDQ ($1999) can provide significant improvements for video. The RadianceXD is in Beta and is our top of the line product. It costs $3999 but provides improved processing, plus audio switching, verses the the Vision series. Please feel free to call (503-574-2211) or email (support@lumagen.com) our support line and we can talk about your specific needs.

I hope this helps.

In another thread the question was asked about what the RadianceXD is doing for Audio. I posted a fairly detailed description of what we plan on our Lumagen Beta forum. Some of the high points I include here:

- There are 18 audio inputs: 6 HDMI, 4 analog stereo, 2 optical, 6 COAX.

- We will support audio from any audio input (HDMI, analog, SPDIF) to one or both of the HDMI outputs, and/or the two COAX outputs --- with the appropriate limits on the output type. For example, the SPDIF COAX output will only carry 2-channel PCM, DD, and DTS.

- How we report audio EDID back to sources can change dynamically, as configured by the user, based on which HDMI output is active. That is, which audio EDID is used can be set to change depending on which output is setup by the user to have active video. A simple example is to report audio EDID from output 1's display (or amplifier) when it is active and report output 2's display (or amplifier) EDID when output 1 is not actively carrying video. Note that, as with the Vision series, the active output can be programmed to change with the selection of the active input memory.

- HDMI audio EDID reported by the RadianceXD to the HDMI sources can be passed-back from either of the two outputs, passed back from the common elements of the two outputs (i.e. only features supported by both outputs are passed back), or user defined.

- The default is the combination of the audio EDID from both outputs, if both support audio. If only one of the HDMI connected displays/amps support audio, that EDID is passed-back. If neither device on the RadianceXD's HDMI outputs supports audio, then we fall back to user defined.

- The default user-defined mode is 2-channel PCM (only). We are considering having Dolby-Digital as part of the default, but then a PCM audio only HDMI device (such as a HDTV) may output noise for DD sources. In any case, the user can change the user-default to include DD and DTS as desired, which is useful if the amp is connected by SPDIF to the RadianceXD

- The user may not want to use all of the programmability features if one of their source devices mis-behaves when we pull and re-assert the HDMI hotplug. That is if we request the source re-aquire EDID and it doesn't, it will be best to have a specific EDID setup in the Radiance and stick to it.

- Currently the audio setup is global. That is, it can change when the active output changes, but there is no input-specific memory as with video. We might change this if we find enough reason to go to a per-input setup.

this is hands down the nicest approach on audio handling in a videoprocessor to date. gratulations !

Is 1080P24sF enabled on the radiance?

Is the audio enabled on the Radiance?

As noted by cal87, there is no auto detect. It has come up in discussions recently, and we would like to hear how many people need this feature. We could add it to our list if there is a lot of interest.

As a prospective buyer of a new video processor, I would be very interested to see this feature in the Radiance in making my purchasing decision. This feature is available in competing products, and is valuable to me for similar reasons as explained by goatwuss in relation to always-on DVR devices.

AVFam

The RadianceXD is in Beta and is our top of the line product. It costs $3999 but provides improved processing, plus audio switching, verses the the Vision series.

Man, I really would like to try an RadianceXD and get rid of my VP50.
$4K vs. $1K (VP50PRO) is just too much to rationalize.:(

We process internally in YCbCr.


Jim someone from PMS mentioned the Gennum process internally as RGB, does this mean there will be a internal conversion while going through the 9450 ?

Jim Still wondering what your thoughts are on the blending feature. i had a poll awile back on the crt forum and there was a nice responce 49 people would like this feature. Since then TV-one has started to come out with lower priced options for blending scalers that are now in line with lumagen radiance price and actually lower. I would most definatly buy a radiance if this reature was included in a future software upgrade, but for now i still love my HDQ.

Athanasios

Does or will the Radiance provide a similar feature to PRep on the VP50 to interlace, de-interlace and reconstruct film mode sources?

- Rich