Lumagen RadianceXD - featuring Gennum VXP (!!) [Text View] - Page 5

VirusKiller

08-30-07, 03:47 AM

Looks like I'm in first :)

I'm using a Radiance with a JVC HD1 (RS1). Sources are Oppo HD970 (DVD), Toshiba HD-XA1 (HD DVD), Sony PS3 (Blu-Ray), and a SkyHD satellite receiver (here in the UK). All connections are via HDMI.

The deinterlacing from the latest Gennum chip is pretty much beyond reproach. My comment covers deinterlacing of 480i60 film, 576i50 video and film, 1080i60 film, and 1080i50 video.

Lumagen's NoRing scaling is quite exceptional. I haven't seen it in the Vision series, but one other Radiance Beta user privately commented to me early on that the Radiance's scaling is "at least as good" as his HDQ. No doubt it will get even better as the algorithms are refined.

In short, the image from vanilla DVD is the best I have seen, bar none. To put this into context, I have previously seen Faroudja 2310 (Philips 963SA SDI --> Crystalio I --> Panasonic AE900), Gennum 9351 (Oppo HD970 and Meridian G98 480/576p HDMI --> JVC HD1), and Meridian (G98 --> JVC HD1 and 800 --> DVP1080 --> MF1) scaling solutions. Take a good disc such as Star Wars Ep. IV and it really "approaches" HD. Certainly, it is exceptionally filmic with minimal artifacting. In fact, almost all artifacting I've seen is due to excessive edge-enhancement in the source material.

Obviously, the Radiance has much less to do with full HD signals. Nevertheless, images from HD DVD, Blu-Ray, and HD satellite look appropriately stunning. HD sport is quite wonderful on the big screen – recent football (soccer!) matches on the BBC, for instance. Planet Earth in HD on Sky is quite breathtaking.

Scaling of SD satellite is better than my old SDI-modded sat receiver into the Crystalio. Bit-rate is most definitely a significant factor in the final image quality. For reasons I cannot comment on at this time, I expect the quality of OTA broadcasts to improve considerably before the production release.

The Radiance is a lot more usable than I thought it would be. It's a very fast machine and very pleasant to use. The menus take a little getting used to if you are new to Lumagen, but quite logical IMO.

I have to comment about the whole Beta process. Quite simply, it's been a pleasure. Jim and his team are very open about things and very quick to respond to issues. As it should be IMO. I purchased a Beta unit very early on. I wanted the best quality, a certain minimum feature set, excellent customer service, and a large degree of future-proofing. I have not been disappointed so far.

Negatives? In terms of video quality and Beta customer experience, erm, none. In terms of things I can't comment on, nothing of significance. Really.

Eitzel

08-30-07, 04:30 AM

Looks like I'm in first :)
I have to comment about the whole Beta process. Quite simply, it's been a pleasure. Jim and his team are very open about things and very quick to respond to issues. As it should be IMO. I purchased a Beta unit very early on. I wanted the best quality, a certain minimum feature set, excellent customer service, and a large degree of future-proofing. I have not been disappointed so far.

Negatives? In terms of video quality and Beta customer experience, erm, none. In terms of things I can't comment on, nothing of significance. Really.

I have to whole-heartedly agree with the above and the images from the Radiance are awesome.:D

mhafner

08-30-07, 06:49 AM

Looks like I'm in first :)
I'm using a Radiance with a JVC HD1 (RS1).
What does the Radiance bring to the table for HD-DVD and BR compared to the HD1's internal processing (from HD-DVD's 1080i60 and PS3's 1080p24)? (Gamut control not counting since not available so far).

VirusKiller

08-30-07, 07:17 AM

In terms of purely displaying the 1920x1080 pixels on a 16:9 screen, I would say not much for 1080p24 source inputs. If all you are interested in is film, then a 1080p24 HD DVD player and a 1080p24 Blu-Ray player should work very well with the HD1. This will be true for most people.

However, 24fps genlock for 1080i60 film sources is an important feature that is not in the HD1.

You might say that future HD DVD players will output 1080p24, but if you're a purist it's a little more subtle than that. For video material on HD DVD or Blu-Ray you would want to set the player's output to 1080i60 rather than 1080p24 so that proper video deinterlacing can be performed. If the player does not allow conditional output (i.e. 1080i60 for video and 1080p24 for film) then you would need to use 1080i60 all of the time and genlock would be important.

Other features (apart from the CMS) would be vertical stretch for CIH systems, not to mention sophisticated independent display and source calibration, and A/V switching and transcoding.

VirusKiller

08-30-07, 08:51 AM

The 980 has a modified-for-Oppo decoder. They have improved on a few of the problems with the 970.I see that 480i 4:2:2 is now supported. Nice!

Brucemck2

08-30-07, 11:06 AM

Can anyone comment on the noise reduction for SD sources?

I'm currently using a Mosquito in front of my scaler for SD (entirely DirertTV) sources, which makes them passable. Wondering if I could remove the Mosquito from the chain and move it into another room.

tryingtimes

08-30-07, 11:10 AM

I don't think any of the Gennum enhancements have been implemented yet Bruce.

ccotenj

08-30-07, 03:36 PM

dsinger

08-30-07, 04:44 PM

sfogg

08-30-07, 08:38 PM

As said the deinterlacing of the Radiance appears to be top notch. No worries about jaggies or anything like that with video material.

The newer menu structure of the Radiance is nice as it keeps the same efficient tree design of the earlier units but is easier to understand for someone new to the Lumagen as it doesn't have all the abbreviations.

The new input memory design of the Radiance is very very nice. This lets you really tweak sources that output multiple resolutions such as the PS3 and so on so that you can fix framing, output different resolutions or refresh rates automatically based on input resolution/rate and so on. Also handy for dealing with the weird levels of the PS3 for example by setting 1080i/p24/60 inputs for Video Levels with 720p for PC. Can of course do things like that with the A/B/C/D input memories as well.

One feature I'm surprised more haven't made comment on is that all the HDMI inputs on the Radiance are active at all times. It keeps HDCP connections up even when an input is not the selected input. This will make things like BR/HD-DVD comparisons much easier as the players won't stop when you change inputs.

Shawn

Joelc

08-30-07, 09:36 PM

Shawn, can you please expand on/explain the new memory design...TIA.

sfogg

08-30-07, 09:56 PM

Joel,

In the earlier Lumagen's I think it basically had the four A/B/C/D memory locations for each input. In each one of them you had the input sizing, color controls, black/contrast levels, deinterlacing mode, output config (resolution, frame rate, output AR) ...etc...etc...etc. These were more or less global for any and all input resolutions.

In the Radiance you have all that but they are independent for the various input resolutions. In other words you have memory A/B/C/D for 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p24 and 1080p60. Each input resolution has its own A/B/C/D input memories and all that goes with it.

A simple example of why this is nice.

For 1080p60 you could set its input memory A to use Output Config 1 which is 1080p60 output.
For 1080p24 you could set its input memory A to use Output Config 2 which is 1080p24 output.

Now the Radiance would automatically change its output frame rate to avoid judder when you have a 1080p24 input. Note: It can't currently do this as 1080p24 output isn't in there yet but you get the idea.

The multiple A/B/C/D inputs memories can be great for dealing with moveable lenses in CIH setups and in lots of other things. You could set memory A for Output Config 1 which is set to Output AR 2.35 and Output Config 2 which is set for Output AR 1.78 for example.

Lots and lots of flexibility with the new memory setup and it lets you get very tricky easily.

Shawn

dsinger

08-30-07, 10:32 PM

can anyone comment as to whether a first time scalar user would be able to use this? i/we are quite handy with the avia disk, so we are comfortable with "amateur" calibration... we are also both "techies"...

If I can learn to use a VP almost anyone can. I started with the Lumagen Vision, traded that in for an HDP when they came out and recently traded the HDP for the Radiance beta.

For a novice, the Radiance beta which does not have many of it's features fully implemented at this time, may be the easiest to learn. The basic video features are in place and this results in excellant PQ right out of the box. As other featured are turned on/added the pace of change has been fairly fast but IMO should make it easier for a first time VP user to learn how to get the most from the unit. You do not have to learn everything at once. Also, the Lumagen forum available from their website is a good place to ask specific questions and get useful answers.

Ayla

08-31-07, 05:48 AM

Joelc

08-31-07, 05:53 AM

c722

08-31-07, 06:46 AM

Is image shift already implemented ?

sfogg

08-31-07, 08:19 AM

Joel,

"I am not quite sure that I follow your explaination or, to that end, agree/think that there is a difference."

See Jim's post here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=10619541&postcount=669

Shawn

ccotenj

08-31-07, 08:31 AM

If I can learn to use a VP almost anyone can. I started with the Lumagen Vision, traded that in for an HDP when they came out and recently traded the HDP for the Radiance beta.

For a novice, the Radiance beta which does not have many of it's features fully implemented at this time, may be the easiest to learn. The basic video features are in place and this results in excellant PQ right out of the box. As other featured are turned on/added the pace of change has been fairly fast but IMO should make it easier for a first time VP user to learn how to get the most from the unit. You do not have to learn everything at once. Also, the Lumagen forum available from their website is a good place to ask specific questions and get useful answers.

thanks! i'm on the list... :D

timmorris

08-31-07, 09:42 AM

Shawn:

I am not quite sure that I follow your explaination or, to that end, agree/think that there is a difference. The reason being, for example, in my VisionHDP when using Input 1 Memory A for my cable box I almost all of the variable were independent for each INPUT RESOLUTION . In other words, I could separately set the parameters, ALL WITHIN MEMORY A, for a 480i, 720p and 1080i sources....how is what you are explaining different?

Apologies ina dvance for being slow -- but it is 5:30 AM!

Joel,

We share the same interests - I've got a BMW M6 convertible!

There is a difference in the way the memories work with the Radiance, but it is probably more a difference for those of us who use PAL and NTSC. With the Vision yuou have auto independent mode where two memories are linked to 50Hz and two to 60Hz so in effect you only have two memories per resolution. With the Radiance mode you can configure seperate output configs for say 1080@50Hz and 1080@60Hz and the same for all the resolutions whether interlaced or progressive inputs, and have four memories for each resolution and refresh rate combination. That makes a big difference for me as I have two displays with different native resolutions. With auto independent mode on the Vision series I could only set up a single calibration memory for each panel at 50 and 60Hz. With the Radiance because there are four memories for each resolution and refresh rate combination I can calibrate for day and night mode for two output resolutions so for say a 1080i50Hz input menu A is 1366x768@50 day mode, menu B is 1366x768@50 night mode, menu C is 1280x720@60 day mode and menu D is 1280x720@60 night mode. I can do exactly the same for a set of inputs @60Hz.

It is more difficult to explain than it is to do! As I mentioned it is really significant for those of use that use multiple refresh rates, probably less so for those in the US who only view 60Hz source material.

I bet I've left you more confused than when you started!

Tim

Joelc

08-31-07, 10:41 AM

Joelc

08-31-07, 10:45 AM

Joel,

We share the same interests - I've got a BMW M6 convertible!

There is a difference in the way the memories work with the Radiance, but it is probably more a difference for those of us who use PAL and NTSC. With the Vision yuou have auto independent mode where two memories are linked to 50Hz and two to 60Hz so in effect you only have two memories per resolution. With the Radiance mode you can configure seperate output configs for say 1080@50Hz and 1080@60Hz and the same for all the resolutions whether interlaced or progressive inputs, and have four memories for each resolution and refresh rate combination. That makes a big difference for me as I have two displays with different native resolutions. With auto independent mode on the Vision series I could only set up a single calibration memory for each panel at 50 and 60Hz. With the Radiance because there are four memories for each resolution and refresh rate combination I can calibrate for day and night mode for two output resolutions so for say a 1080i50Hz input menu A is 1366x768@50 day mode, menu B is 1366x768@50 night mode, menu C is 1280x720@60 day mode and menu D is 1280x720@60 night mode. I can do exactly the same for a set of inputs @60Hz.

It is more difficult to explain than it is to do! As I mentioned it is really significant for those of use that use multiple refresh rates, probably less so for those in the US who only view 60Hz source material.

I bet I've left you more confused than when you started!

Tim

Tim, let's see whether we can go three for three...I have three hobbies/interest which in decreasing order of money/time are my HT, my car and my watches...do you match up on the third...by the way, M6 convertible nice ride, am looking forward to seeing the restyled 6 series with the retractable roof...

As far as confusing me...a little but my personaility will helo get me through it and undersatnd it...that and shawn's link and the manual...

have a good one..

timmorris

08-31-07, 10:48 AM

I've got a Stainless Steel Rolex submariner and a steel/gold Breitling Chronomat. Do they count?

Tim

VirusKiller

08-31-07, 10:52 AM

Geez... :D

Joelc

08-31-07, 11:42 AM

Tim, yes those count....

Shawn, Tim and Others...my Radiance is in my rack, image/picture is on my screen...as such, now time to tweak unit...as always, a question...I have been reading the manual and the diagram on page 9 which describes/shows that EACH INPUT HAS FOR MEMORIES (i.e. A/B/C/D) and that EACH MEMORY HAS 8 SUB-MEMORIES (i.e. 480/576/720p60/1080i50/1080i60/1080p24/1080p60/OTHER)...all of this is NOW crustal clear to me....what IS NOT clear to me is the OUTPUT CONFIGURATIONS...can someone please explain these..sorry for the simplicty of my question but I want to make sure I understand as much as possible before tweaking the unit...TIA..

RandyFreeman

08-31-07, 04:03 PM

The Vision series has "Independent output mode" which, when selected, allowed different input resolutions to select different output configuration memories. There were four input sub-resolution memories on HD capable inputs for 480/576, 720p, 1080i and other. There is also an "auto independent output mode" which automatically selects MemA/MemC or MemB/MemD if the input is 60Hz/50Hz.

On the Radiance we decided to simplify the output modes by only having the "Independent output mode" and doubling the number of input sub-resolution memories. There are eight input sub-resolution memories on the HD capable inputs for 480, 576, 720p, 1080i50, 1080i60, 1080p24, 1080p60 and other. We believe this will be easier for customers to use.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Joelc

08-31-07, 10:19 PM

Bear5k

09-01-07, 04:34 PM

Randy, thanks for the response but I must be think as I still don't get it (or it is late at night after a long)...perhaps an exmaple of how one would use them would be great, noting that I undersatnd MEM A and all of its sub-memories, it is just the use of the configurations that I do not get!

TIA.
Hopefully this falls within the amended NDA....

Joel - Are you using a digital display or an analog? If you are using a digital display, then what Lumagen had implemented previously was overkill. Generally, you want you have the Radiance output at your display's native resolution (assuming it takes it). If you are driving more than one display, and they have different native resolutions, then you want to set-up profiles for each (e.g., a 1080p front projector and a 768p plasma for "everyday use").

If you have a CRT FP, and you wanted to have the CRT display the native signal (within the boundaries of having too big of a gap between scan lines), then the old way was great. For example, you may have had 1080i output at 1080i, 720p output at 720p, but you had DVD output at 960p since an analog CRT FP is an inherently multi-resolution machine. Getting away from this need to flexibly map inputs to outputs should (hopefully) mean that digital owners have more memory to play with, while CRT owners, who also seem to be converging on 1080p-capable machines (or beyond) don't get left behind. After all, I doubt that too many people outside the 8"/9" LC crowd are in the target market for a Radiance (hence all the calls for blending functionality).

Bill

Mark_H

09-02-07, 04:55 AM

Hopefully this falls within the amended NDA....

Joel - Are you using a digital display or an analog? If you are using a digital display, then what Lumagen had implemented previously was overkill. Generally, you want you have the Radiance output at your display's native resolution (assuming it takes it). If you are driving more than one display, and they have different native resolutions, then you want to set-up profiles for each (e.g., a 1080p front projector and a 768p plasma for "everyday use").

Not quite. I use digital and have the following output configurations setup on my ProHDP:

US films - 1080 @ 48Hz
US video - 1080 @ 60Hz
Euro sources - 1080 @ 50Hz

Digital does not necessarily mean one output configuration only.

Cheers,

Mark

Ayla

09-02-07, 08:09 AM

Hi

Anyone who can answer my questions please?

Thanks

Hi

Thanks for all the info from Lumagen and the Beta testers :)

A couple of questions:

1. I'm switching from a DVDO VP50 to the Radiance XD.

Is there anything the VP50 can do that I'm going to miss in the Radiance XD (I don't use PreP)?

2. Is the deinterlacing in the new Radiance XD as good as the VP50's "famous" deinterlacing?

3. Will the Noise Reduction in the Radiance XD give me a significant improvement when watching SD sports?

I watch that a lot! - And on my VP50 I have, for example, a lot of mosquitoes around players in soccer matches.

Hope you can help :)
Martin

Bear5k

09-02-07, 10:32 AM

Not quite. I use digital and have the following output configurations setup on my ProHDP:

US films - 1080 @ 48Hz
US video - 1080 @ 60Hz
Euro sources - 1080 @ 50Hz

Digital does not necessarily mean one output configuration only.

Cheers,

Mark

True enough. I had left out the time domain issues. Come to think of it, this would be nice to set a flag for film-based sources to be output at a multiple of the film frame rate, and then have native output for video, without having to use a profile.

Bill

Joelc

09-02-07, 12:03 PM

Bear5K and Randy:

Much thanks...I sat down with some "quiet time" yesterday and figured it all out -- that is, with the held of Mark_H and a few others...very smart what they did once one figures it out...once again, thanks!

Joelc

09-02-07, 12:04 PM

Ayla, I have not spent enough time with a VP50 to comment...

escon

09-02-07, 07:02 PM

Hi

Thanks for all the info from Lumagen and the Beta testers :)

A couple of questions:

1. I'm switching from a DVDO VP50 to the Radiance XD.

Is there anything the VP50 can do that I'm going to miss in the Radiance XD (I don't use PreP)?

2. Is the deinterlacing in the new Radiance XD as good as the VP50's "famous" deinterlacing?

3. Will the Noise Reduction in the Radiance XD give me a significant improvement when watching SD sports?

I watch that a lot! - And on my VP50 I have, for example, a lot of mosquitoes around players in soccer matches.

Hope you can help :)
Martin
Hi All, new to this thread. Yes, I'd very like to know the answers to these questions too!. Still sitting on the fence.

To CII or to XD - that is the question :confused: (from a VP50 - upgrade to the Pro not worthwhile IMO).

Lack of Multichannel LPCM and inability to have different output resolutions on both outputs I can see go against the CII. I note too that the specs on the XD say that it has Mosquito/BAR NR - the CII "just" has NR. Can anyone comment on the noise reduction performance and de-interlacing in real life between the two units, particularly on SD? Will the XD have as many CMS controls on a per input basis as the CII? The XD specs just mention Hue - not sure if per input also allows RGB gain, offset and gamma.

cal87

09-03-07, 12:25 AM

escon

09-03-07, 01:10 AM

I have made the switch from VP50 to the Radiance, so I will try to answer some of these questions.

The main additions on the VP50 (Pro in particular) are PReP, HD-SDI, and HDMI 1.3 as far as I can tell. I have no use for PReP, and don't currently see the need for the other 2.

I would say the de-interlacing is at least as good, if not better on the Radiance. Scaling is definitely better.

Not much else is enabled right now, including noise reduction. The Radiance should have just about everything and more than the other processors in time. There have been mentions of a pro version with HD-SDI and an upgrade path to HDMI 1.3 for those who are interested.
Thanks Cal87. Interesting that there may be a Pro version of the XD in the future - I was wondering in fact whether the external SD to HDMI converter for the XD was HD or SD SDI - you are suggesting that it is SD only. Are any of the CMS controls implemented on the XD yet?

Has anyone owned a CII and then switched to the Radiance XD (or still have both:)). Comments on the difference in performance - scaling/de-interlacing? I'm sitting on the fence between the CII and XD.

Ayla

09-03-07, 08:01 AM

I have made the switch from VP50 to the Radiance, so I will try to answer some of these questions.

The main additions on the VP50 (Pro in particular) are PReP, HD-SDI, and HDMI 1.3 as far as I can tell. I have no use for PReP, and don't currently see the need for the other 2.

I would say the de-interlacing is at least as good, if not better on the Radiance. Scaling is definitely better.

Not much else is enabled right now, including noise reduction. The Radiance should have just about everything and more than the other processors in time. There have been mentions of a pro version with HD-SDI and an upgrade path to HDMI 1.3 for those who are interested.

Thanks for the reply.

I have no use for PreP or HD-SDI. HDMI 1.3 I will need at some point but the Radiance will be upgradable to HDMI 1.3.

So NO Noise Reduction features are enabled in the Radiance XD at this time?

What is the approximate timeline on NR features and will they be comparable to an Algolith Mosquito in terms of quality?

This is the main reason I'll be getting the Radiance, that and better support/updates than DVDO.

VirusKiller

09-03-07, 08:15 AM

What is the approximate timeline on NR features and will they be comparable to an Algolith Mosquito in terms of quality?As you know, all beta users are under NDA and we are prohibited from discussing the feature list and timescales. However, it's public knowledge that the RadianceXD uses the Gennum VXP 9450 chip. If noise reduction is very important to you, I would focus your attention on understanding the capabilities of this chip.

I do know that the Mosquito is advertised as using proprietry 3D noise reduction algorithms; one of the significant features of the VXP 9450 is that it has 3D NR which is an improvement vs. the previous generation 9351 which only had 2D NR.

RichB

09-03-07, 08:18 AM

Thanks for the reply.

I have no use for PreP or HD-SDI. HDMI 1.3 I will need at some point but the Radiance will be upgradable to HDMI 1.3.

So NO Noise Reduction features are enabled in the Radiance XD at this time?

What is the approximate timeline on NR features and will they be comparable to an Algolith Mosquito in terms of quality?

This is the main reason I'll be getting the Radiance, that and better support/updates than DVDO.

I agree. I plan on ordering one this month, but I would really like to try the NR. I do not need the sound features yet since I am coming from a HDQ and have a 4 year old preamp, a dinasour ;)

- Rich

cal87

09-03-07, 10:40 AM

A couple of more comments.

As far as SDI is concerned, right now you will need a third party device. The one most talked about is from AJA, which I believe does both SD and HD SDI. Lumagen has stated that they are going to have their own converter, but exact details have not been released.

As far as comparison with the CII, I don't have personal info. The Radiance uses Lumagen's scaling, which has been generally considered the best. As VirusKiller stated, the Radiance uses the newer Gennum chip versus the CII, so you can probably expect some improvements there.

For those that are interested, the firmware updates that have been released and a brief description is on the Lumagen site on a public page.

Ayla

09-03-07, 10:44 AM

As you know, all beta users are under NDA and we are prohibited from discussing the feature list and timescales. However, it's public knowledge that the RadianceXD uses the Gennum VXP 9450 chip. If noise reduction is very important to you, I would focus your attention on understanding the capabilities of this chip.

I do know that the Mosquito is advertised as using proprietry 3D noise reduction algorithms; one of the significant features of the VXP 9450 is that it has 3D NR which is an improvement vs. the previous generation 9351 which only had 2D NR.

Yes and I respect that VirusKiller, maybe I will soon be under the NDA myself, hope so, cause that means I got my Radiance :)

But, maybe someone from Lumagen can give a little more info on the NR questions then?

jacovn

09-03-07, 04:07 PM

I owned a C2 and ordered a Radiance.
I had a number of problems with the C2 (most of which were fixed by dealer or PMS) but the reason i sold it was the lack of good audio support via HDMI and the not ok working 1080i60 to 1080p24 mode

When the C2 worked, i liked the PQ very much i must say. I hope the Radiance can improve upon that.

On the new gennum chip and the filtering possibilities you might want to take a look at a product PMS announced (but has not yet in production i think)
http://www.pixelmagicsystems.com/images/new/Pixel_Magic_Elixio_brochure.pdf
i suspect this is using the 9450 chip as well.

Zoom in on the pictures and you can see an example of the processing.

escon

09-03-07, 06:36 PM

......
Zoom in on the pictures and you can see an example of the processing.
Yes, I had a look at that. Most impressed with the Mosquito and Per Pixel Detail Enhancement. Not sure I could detect much difference in the Block Artifact Removal and Motion Adaptive Noise filtering though. I zoomed the pictures right up to almost fill my 19in screen. The resolution in the brochure is fine, so that did not create any problems in itself.

Like many feel I guess, the CII lacks IMO the most fundamental and 2 most usefull noise reductions/functions - Mosquito NR and Edge Enhancement. It does have Detail Enhancement, but I suspect of a lower proficiency than that of its competitors. Perhaps DVDO got it right with their VP50 Pro - they added the 2 functions which I would say make the most difference to overall PQ enhancement. The CII cannot have Mosquito NR added to it's firmware - the NR and Detail Enhancement it offers is that of the 2 VP chips and is cast in stone.

The CII's twin outputs are nice to have (although limited as both have the same Resolution at the one time), but then, thinking about the use of these down the track, I guess most devices will probably be 1080p, so a simple HDMI splitter would be all you need. And yes it's lack of Multichannel Linear PCM is also a drawback.

The XD's lack of SDI is a bit of a bummer, but yes, you can get it by adding a SD/HD SDI to HDMI converter.

Overall then, it seems to have boiled down to either upgrading to the VP50 Pro or wait and go for the Radiance XD. Somehow, in spite of all the wealth of adjustments and build quality, the CII may be falling of the list after all.

So, what's missing on the VP50 Pro for me? A second output and better CMS - everything else is fine. But I've just argued that a second HDMI output port is probably not going to be that important and can be added externally. That leaves just better/more comprehensive Colour Management on a per input basis.

What's missing on the CII for me? MLPCM and Mosquito NR and perhaps new generation Edge/Detail Enhancement and lastly HD-SDI, all of which the VP50 Pro has.

What's missing on the XD for me? Only SD SDI. But this can be added later. So, it looks like the XD might be the winner for me by a small margin - until I think of something else:). Paralysis by analysis :confused:. But then of course, the XD is as yet a totally unproven beast - here I go again ;).

jacovn

09-03-07, 11:48 PM

What's missing on the CII for me? MLPCM and Mosquito NR and perhaps new generation Edge/Detail Enhancement and lastly HD-SDI, all of which the VP50 Pro has.

The C2-3800 has HD-SDI

escon

09-04-07, 12:07 AM

The C2-3800 has HD-SDI
Thanks, yes, forgot to mention that I've looked at the 3800. What's your opinion on the Media Player in it - I read in one post by PM, that they have stopped developing it any further and that's it's not up to the HD Media Player yet (or ever likely to be).

jacovn

09-04-07, 12:24 AM

Phil, for MPEG-2 playback i found it the best hardware solution i ever had. It could playback every framerate i tried, so also 23,98 files.
But.. the world is changing, and other codecs become more popular, at least here in Europe we see a lot of H.264
So the Mediaplayer is nice, but looses his value.
If it would have been modular, they could have changed it, but i think it is intergrated with the rest of the scaler, also to make it possible to pplayback different frame rates.

sidb

09-04-07, 02:45 AM

Does anyone know if the Radiance has a fast enough output clock to drive a display at 1920x1200 resolution @ 60 fps -- nearly the same as 1080p60, but 120 pixels taller? That's the upper limit of single-link DVI, so a lot of big computer displays use it (they sometimes call it WUXGA). I know that it's a little too much for a VP50 to handle, but even cheap computer graphics cards all support it these days. Still, I thought I'd ask before assuming a Radiance can do it. Can it? Can it accept it as input, too, at least for passthrough?

escon

09-04-07, 02:52 AM

According to the available specs I have, it's limited to 1920 x 1080p @ 60Hz for both input and output. The CII does go to 1920 x 1200 on its output:eek:.

nashou66

09-04-07, 09:31 AM

TomHuffman

09-04-07, 11:30 AM

Will the XD have as many CMS controls on a per input basis as the CII?In time the Radiance promises to have a more sophisticated CMS than the CII, which offers only adjustment of RGB hue and grayscale. The RGB saturation doesn't work. The Radiance promises to include all that the CII has, and adding RG color decoding controls and a functioning RGB saturation control. Of course, we'll have to wait to see if the implementation justifies the promise.

sidb

09-04-07, 01:05 PM

According to the available specs I have, it's limited to 1920 x 1080p @ 60Hz for both input and output. The CII does go to 1920 x 1200 on its output:eek:.
Thanks. That was implied in the online manual for the HDQ, but published specs (especially for a different model!) aren't always a reliable guide for this sort of thing. I guess it's too early to expect documentation on a product that isn't shipping yet. I'll assume your specs are more accurate than what I could find.

That's interesting about the CII, though. Sigh. You just can't get a single box that covers everything.

RandyFreeman

09-04-07, 06:22 PM

At this point we don't have any plans to add a 1920x1200p60 mode to the Radiance. How many people would like to use this mode?

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

RandyFreeman

09-04-07, 06:31 PM

If the blending feature is implimented in a future upgrade will each output be used or will there be a need for two Radiances? that is, will one output show the left side and the other output the right side? or will two Units be needed for this?

We have the blended output on the list of possible features for the Radiance. I believe it would output something like 60% of the image from each output with something like 20% of the image being gradiated for blending purposes. Don't quote me on these percentages. Due to hardware requirements this might end up being a separate model of the Radiance. The engineering hasn't been started yet and the details haven't been decided. I just want you to know that it is on our list.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

escon

09-04-07, 07:05 PM

Hi Randy. I'm new to this thread and I find it heartening to see such active participation by Lumagen staff on this forum.

Just a quick question on the SD-SDI to HDMI converter for the XD. Would you have a rough delivery date and price on this item?

TIA.

escon

09-04-07, 07:15 PM

... I'll assume your specs are more accurate than what I could find
Yes, I certainly hope so!. Have a look here:

http://www.progressive-av.com/accessories/lumagen_radiance_xg_gennum-vxp-powered.htm

escon

09-04-07, 07:21 PM

In time the Radiance promises to have a more sophisticated CMS than the CII, which offers only adjustment of RGB hue and grayscale. The RGB saturation doesn't work. The Radiance promises to include all that the CII has, and adding RG color decoding controls and a functioning RGB saturation control. Of course, we'll have to wait to see if the implementation justifies the promise.
Thanks for this info. I like the Dorothy Dix quote:D.

sidb

09-04-07, 08:27 PM

At this point we don't have any plans to add a 1920x1200p60 mode to the Radiance. How many people would like to use this mode?

Best regards,
Randy Freeman
Unfortunately for my cause here, that resolution is more a computer thing, and I suspect most people here want to hook a Radiance primarily to HT gear. Still, I figure that's why it has two outputs, right? One for the HT projector, one for the big monitor on the desk, which to be honest, I end up using a lot more unless I have guests and it's dark. I have a comfy desk chair and no desire to dominate the room with a giant fixed display, yet I want good PQ and optimum settings for all my (numerous) devices. And for computer usage, that little bit of extra screen height comes in handy. I think that makes me a niche within a niche, though.

I can kind of hack acceptable output for my display by having my current VP scale to my display's 16:10 aspect ratio, vertically squeeze that content into a 16:9 1080p video frame (so it throws away some vertical resolution and letterboxes 16:9 content, while still being able to present 4:3 material at full height with narrower pillarboxing than traditional), then having the display's inferior scaler vertically re-inflate the signal, but that's hardly ideal.

So yeah, that's one vote for a scaler that can actually handle my native resolution. I am actually a little surprised that a Radiance would 1) have a high enough hardware output bit clock to support the resolution and frame rate, but 2) not allow it to be set in software. I've been told that my current scaler's HDMI transmitter chip causes its limitations. 1920x1200 is DVI's max resolution, but HDMI is usually only used up to 1080p -- since Lumagen is presumably moving from DVI to HDMI-specific chips with the Radiance, would that be an issue?

Alternately, could I at least 1) output 1920x1200 @ 30 or 24 frames/sec for content that isn't 60 fps, or 2) pass through the signal from my computer, even though the processor can't understand it? Or maybe I'm the only one who even needs any of this. ::shrug::

Cameron

09-04-07, 09:12 PM

Another vote for 1920 x1200 as I would be using it with a similar display on occasion also.

nashou66

09-04-07, 10:50 PM

We have the blended output on the list of possible features for the Radiance. I believe it would output something like 60% of the image from each output with something like 20% of the image being gradiated for blending purposes. Don't quote me on these percentages. Due to hardware requirements this might end up being a separate model of the Radiance. The engineering hasn't been started yet and the details haven't been decided. I just want you to know that it is on our list.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Thanks randy for the promissing info, i am definatly in the market for a blending scaler and was going to soon get a tv-one but now i think i'll wait since i love the 11 pt gamma correction on Lumagens.Would this be implimented on each output also?. I just Love my HDQ, or maybe you could add blending to the firmware updates to your other scalers and two could be used!!!!This way you would sell more lower end scalers and still sell many of the radiance for those who dont want an extra box in their rack. I only wish you kept sdi input on the Radiance. Maybe if the seperate RadianceXDB (B for blend;) ) Is made that could have the sdi inputs since it seems the crt guys love sdi. Also another feature that would be nice if its possible would be left to right keystone feature for those who wish to stack side by side crt's like the electrohome which right now is almost impossible to do, not enough correction or none at all from what i'm told.Also when or if the blend feature is added i'd like to be a beta blender.

nashou66

09-04-07, 10:52 PM

Another vote for 1920x1200 . the 1200 vertical is great for blending on crt's!

Athanasios

mhafner

09-05-07, 05:33 AM

Is the Radiance upgradeable to support 4K in the future or does that require a new box from scratch?

RandyFreeman

09-05-07, 04:45 PM

We would need to see if it's technically feasible to program the output of the Radiance to 1920x1200. Right now the answer is no. In the future, with some engineering work, the answer is maybe. I'm adding this request to the list of possible features. There are other features that are much higher priority and we would need to see if it's even possible.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

sidb

09-05-07, 05:57 PM

the answer is maybe. I'm adding this request to the list of possible features.
That's all I had hoped for. If I end up getting a Radiance (of which the chances are looking good), it will be, in large part, because its creators seem so seriously motivated and responsive about making the product do what customers need as frequently as they are able.

EDIT, 48 hours and 1 total post later: Gah, I killed the thread! Too positive, maybe? I was just trying to spread some love. Normally, I'm a mean bastard, I promise! :mad:

nashou66

09-05-07, 06:34 PM

That's all I had hoped for. If I end up getting a Radiance (of which the chances are looking good), it will be, in large part, because its creators seem so seriously motivated and responsive about making the product do what customers need as frequently as they are able.

I concur !!! :D

Athanasios

ccotenj

09-07-07, 10:05 PM

nashou66

09-07-07, 11:48 PM

More chatter going on in the CRT forum about blending!!! the other companies are making headway lets up our beloved lumagen does the same! we need to get MadMrH on this! he,s been helping out the TVone guys lets get him onthe lumagen blend team too!

Vote for blending here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11558546&posted=1#post11558546

Athanasios

Joelc

09-08-07, 12:16 PM

c'mon, some of the beta testers throw some of us who are waiting for production a bone... more comments! :D

is anyone using their beta unit with a 720p plasma? if so, can they (under the terms of the nda) make some comments?

I am using mine with both a 720p projector and a 768p plasma...the image, at least to me, is noticeably better than it was with my VisionHDP. What specifically would you like to know?

RichB

09-08-07, 01:40 PM

I am using mine with both a 720p projector and a 768p plasma...the image, at least to me, is noticeably better than it was with my VisionHDP. What specifically would you like to know?

I am in the same position, what would you say are the improvements?
Inquiring minds want to know ;)

- Rich

Joelc

09-08-07, 01:56 PM

I am in the same position, what would you say are the improvements?
Inquiring minds want to know ;)

- Rich

I would say that the colors for some reason look better, the scaling of 480i/1080i sources (with similar settings on both the VisionHDP and RadianceXD) is better and fast motion/sports seems to have less motion artifacts...

RichB

09-08-07, 02:27 PM

I would say that the colors for some reason look better, the scaling of 480i/1080i sources (with similar settings on both the VisionHDP and RadianceXD) is better and fast motion/sports seems to have less motion artifacts...

Excellent! That is about what I expected.

Thanks,

Rich

ccotenj

09-08-07, 03:49 PM

yes, 768p plasma, sorry (brain warp, i've been spending WAY too much time researching lately :p )...

that's what i'm looking for as well... when you say "less motion artifacts" on fast moving sports, are they "close to eliminated"? or still pretty significant?

colors better? meaning deeper? vibrant? more "true to llfe"?

had you not been using the hdp before, what would you say the degree of improvement on a 480i dvd source is (assuming a decent disk to start with).

what are you using for "regular tv" input (i.e. cable box and setup)?

thanks!

Joelc

09-08-07, 05:08 PM

yes, 768p plasma, sorry (brain warp, i've been spending WAY too much time researching lately :p )... No problem

that's what i'm looking for as well... when you say "less motion artifacts" on fast moving sports, are they "close to eliminated"? or still pretty significant? I would say close to eliminated...not perfect but very good/excellent!

colors better? meaning deeper? vibrant? more "true to llfe"? Not more vibrant but more true to life and this without having done a full/proper grayscale adjustment

had you not been using the hdp before, what would you say the degree of improvement on a 480i dvd source is (assuming a decent disk to start with). I can not answer this as I have only ever used the HDP or Radiance but, that said, at one point I must have concluded the HDP was in itself a beneficial improvement otehrwise I would not have purcahsed it!

what are you using for "regular tv" input (i.e. cable box and setup)? Scientific Atlantic SA 8300 HD PVR

thanks!

See the above answers in red...

ccotenj

09-08-07, 05:14 PM

thanks joel... that helps...

whets the appetite, for sure... :D

escon

09-08-07, 08:25 PM

Thanks for the feedback so far Joel.

Is there anyone out there at this stage that could make a comparison between the DVDO VP50 and the XD - along the same lines as the comparisons between the previous Lumagen VP. It's one thing to match a set of features and specifications - it's quite another to actually see the difference(s) between the PQs. I know, I know, that would require a beta tester to have a VP50 as well...but you never know.:D.

cal87

09-08-07, 11:41 PM

Is there anyone out there at this stage that could make a comparison between the DVDO VP50 and the XD - along the same lines as the comparisons between the previous Lumagen VP. It's one thing to match a set of features and specifications - it's quite another to actually see the difference(s) between the PQs. I know, I know, that would require a beta tester to have a VP50 as well...but you never know.:D.

Here is a little comparison.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11473155#post11473155

escon

09-09-07, 01:35 AM

Here is a little comparison.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11473155#post11473155
Very interesting!. I've posted my comments/questions in that thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11566634#post11566634), but, as I said there, if you're perfectly happy that you've done all the right things in your testing procedure, you should copy that post here. And, add the VP50Pro results when you get your hands on one of them.

And hey, to make it all worthwhile, put the Crystalio CII through the same paces as well :D. That should test/compare the new Gennum GF 9450 chip in the XD to the earlier Gennum chip that the CII uses.

jacovn

09-10-07, 09:27 AM

Yes, I had a look at that. Most impressed with the Mosquito and Per Pixel Detail Enhancement. Not sure I could detect much difference in the Block Artifact Removal and Motion Adaptive Noise filtering though. I zoomed the pictures right up to almost fill my 19in screen. The resolution in the brochure is fine, so that did not create any problems in itself.

Today i visited the IBC exhibition, and went by the Gennum booth.
I got a very good demo from one of the people there and he recognised the Lumagen name.
The demo showed the Picture in Picture, and picture next to Picture.
I also saw the Mosquito and Block Artifact removal in work. It looked impressive i must say. Bad Mosquito noise almost all disapeared, and the BAR also worked quite good. It were pretty bad video recordings in SD and there was HD video coming out of it, and it worked better than i had expected.

escon

09-10-07, 10:48 AM

Thanks for that feedback Jacovn. Looks like we can look forward to some pretty good performance out of the XD.

slackmack

09-11-07, 12:09 PM

rboster

09-11-07, 12:18 PM

What's the latest on the XD production model availability, and what features will be included in the GA release? When will the manual be available for download so that those of us on the pre-buy can get a head start on reviewing the info?

For what it worth. I placed an order about two weeks ago for a beta unit. They should have additional beta's available by next week....so I would assume end of Sept for production units has been pushed back....again that is an assumption on my part based only on my beta order.

Ron

Dave G

09-11-07, 01:31 PM

D_B_0673

09-11-07, 04:07 PM

I also am on the pre-order for a production unit...

RandyFreeman

09-12-07, 04:07 PM

At this time we haven't set an exact date for RadianceXD production release. There was a slight delay because HDMI audio took longer to implement than was anticipated. But I can assure you that we are working on getting the Radiance to production. We are as anxious as you to see the Radiance in production.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

ccotenj

09-12-07, 04:55 PM

well...
i'm sure you are just as anxious as us... after all, you want that cash register to start ringing! :D

that being said, it doesn't appear as if the timetables that were set were very realistic...

it's understandable that you cannot set an "exact" date... but does october look doable?

i don't want this post to sound cranky, but if beta units are still waiting to ship, it doesn't give a warm fuzzy that production units are going to ship anytime soon... we know you are doing your best... and i'm sure we all want bug-free (or at least close to bug-free) units... but a realistic timeframe (not based upon everything going exactly right) would be nice...

Dave G

09-12-07, 05:06 PM

rboster

09-12-07, 05:52 PM

Dave G

09-12-07, 07:01 PM

I can update my situation. My beta unit has shipped (a week plus early) and will arrive tomorrow. Originally, I was looking at 3rd week to last week in Sept....so less than Mid-Month is a positive sign.

Ron
That's great but a realistic timeframe for those of us who don't want beta units would still be nice.

nashou66

09-12-07, 07:17 PM

And if they add blending in the future that be a nice time frame i'd like to know also, i'd buy one when it comes out if i new that blending will definitely be a feature in the near future. So it might be the TVone scalers for me :o

Athansios
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=851150

sfogg

09-12-07, 07:30 PM

"but if beta units are still waiting to ship"

They aren't waiting to ship they have been shipping for months.

Shawn

Dave G

09-12-07, 07:35 PM

"but if beta units are still waiting to ship"

They aren't waiting to ship they have been shipping for months.

Shawn

He was referring to this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11588580#post11588580):For what it worth. I placed an order about two weeks ago for a beta unit. They should have additional beta's available by next week....so I would assume end of Sept for production units has been pushed back....again that is an assumption on my part based only on my beta order.

sfogg

09-12-07, 08:08 PM

That is simply just another run of units. Radiances have been shipping for months. I've had mine since early in June.

The post I quoted:

"i don't want this post to sound cranky, but if beta units are still waiting to ship, it doesn't give a warm fuzzy that production units are going to ship anytime soon..."

Makes it sound like Lumagen hasn't shipped any beta units yet. That is not the case.

Shawn

Dave G

09-12-07, 08:35 PM

ccotenj

09-12-07, 09:50 PM

yes... dave understood what i meant...

it's pretty obvious from reading the thread that some people have beta units in their hands (they'd have a hard time being "beta testers" without them :p )... my point was is that if they are still shipping beta units (and still have people waiting to receive beta units), it doesn't give me a lot of confidence that a production version is right around the corner...

sfogg

09-12-07, 10:02 PM

"my point was is that if they are still shipping beta units (and still have people waiting to receive beta units), it doesn't give me a lot of confidence that a production version is right around the corner..."

The only difference between a 'beta' unit and a 'production' unit is the software loaded in it. When Lumagen releases their 'production' software we all load it into our 'beta' units and poof... they are production units.

Its just what Lumagen is calling the software, nothing more.

Shawn

ccotenj

09-12-07, 10:20 PM

well... like i said in my first post, i don't want to come off as cranky, and i'm definitely not looking to start an argument... and if i didn't believe they weren't going to put out a superior product, i wouldn't be on the pre-order list... so there's no need to "defend" the good folks at lumagen...

but, having done software development for 25 years now, generally speaking, you aren't issuing units with beta software right before you say "it's production, it's ready to go"...

hey, they may have a different philosophy on the software development lifecycle at lumagen... i'm just saying that it's not giving ME personally a warm fuzzy that we're going to see a production version in the next few weeks... i hope i'm wrong...

geez. i didn't mean to ruffle people's feathers. all i'm (and i'm probably not alone in this) asking for is some type of "good faith" estimate of when it's going to be ready...

Perfectionist2

09-12-07, 10:25 PM

I am expecting my beta unit in the next 2 weeks.

I was told last spring that the only difference between the production units and the beta units will be software. Once the beta units are updated with the production software, all units will be identical.

Since we are still receiving beta units, I would guess (no factual knowledge) that productions units are likely a few months away from distribution.

oink

09-12-07, 11:56 PM

Has Lumagen set the Radiance features officially in stone yet?
I wonder if, by the time the Radiance officially ships, it will be the premier VP out there?

c722

09-13-07, 01:30 AM

generally speaking, you aren't issuing units with beta software right before you say "it's production, it's ready to go"...

yea that's true.

I just hope Lumagen didn't seriously under-estimate the work involved in audio. If I'm not wrong, this is the 1st time Lumagen has ever to deal with audio. And to top it off, HDMI audio. In the DVDO case, everything audio wise was smooth until the VP30 when they started HDMI. All of sudden you see tons of complaints of audio dropouts, cracking sounds, no audios, wrong channels, delays, etc. We already see so many tricks on EDID for video resolutions. For audio there are also EDIDs to play too.

RichB

09-13-07, 12:33 PM

ccotenj

09-13-07, 12:50 PM

method 4:
everything to the lumagen. one hdmi out to the display and one to the receiver...

run a composite cable from receiver to display for when you need receiver osd...

Gordon Fraser

09-13-07, 02:03 PM

Can you not send the osd from the amp to another input on the Radiance then use PIP to view it when you actually need to see the OSD.

Gordon

edit: Dont know why but the post above this only appeared to me once i posted this reply......

RandyFreeman

09-13-07, 03:33 PM

As was mentioned in several posts, we are shipping production hardware for the RadianceXD. The software is still in Beta and new software will need to be loaded into the Radiance when we post the final production software.

We continue to add features and post new versions of the software for beta customers to load into their Radiance. We still need to implement a few more important features in the software before the Radiance will officially be in production. Sorry that I don't have an exact date for production, but it's not too far away.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

dsinger

09-13-07, 03:57 PM

I have an Onkyo Pro 885 HDMI capable preamp on order and I am about to order a Radiance.

Method1 : Source->Lumagen->Preamp->Display
I am uncertain how to handle the HDMI connections. It would seem to make sense to connect all HDMI sources to the Lumagen first so that I can get the benefit of separate settings then pass the signal on to the Preamp for audio processing with the Preamp Connected to the Display. Since my display is 1366x768 this may prove interesting. The Preamp must have a mode to just leave that alone. If it does, I guess I am OK except the OSD from the Preamp is unlikely to work.

Method2: Source->Preamp->Lumagen->Display
This method is not as good since I will use only one input to the Lumagen so unless the resolutions can sort it out, I have to use memories to sort it all out. How well would that work?

Method3: Source->Splitter->Preamp & Lumagen->Display (Via Lumagen)
This would work fine but again I lose the Preamp Video display. It would be expensive if an active splitter is required (which is my guess).

I was wondering if someone has done this and has some experience?

- Rich

I have a Yamaha RXV 2700 and Radiance beta. With these, your methods 1 and 2 as well a Gordon's method would work. The 2700 has a pass thru HDMI setting so the 1366/768 would go thru unmolested to the Radiance. The OSD from the Yamaha via HDMI works with perhaps a slightly longer delay. Per Gordon's method, a composite cable fed to input 15 also works. I would think the Onkyo would be as sophisticated as the Yamaha in these matters. If you can download a copy of the Onkyo manual, it should tell you.

RichB

09-13-07, 04:11 PM

method 4:
everything to the lumagen. one hdmi out to the display and one to the receiver...

run a composite cable from receiver to display for when you need receiver osd...

Can you not send the osd from the amp to another input on the Radiance then use PIP to view it when you actually need to see the OSD.

Gordon

edit: Don't know why but the post above this only appeared to me once i posted this reply......

Brilliant. That sounds like it will work very well. Is the audio pass-through working in the current beta?

Thanks,

Rich

RichB

09-13-07, 04:22 PM

I have a Yamaha RXV 2700 and Radiance beta. With these, your methods 1 and 2 as well a Gordon's method would work. The 2700 has a pass thru HDMI setting so the 1366/768 would go thru unmolested to the Radiance. The OSD from the Yamaha via HDMI works with perhaps a slightly longer delay. Per Gordon's method, a composite cable fed to input 15 also works. I would think the Onkyo would be as sophisticated as the Yamaha in these matters. If you can download a copy of the Onkyo manual, it should tell you.

I think that Gordon's method was best, although, I would be surprised if the OSD was available with pass-through mode. Unmolested means no OSD, I think because how would it be able to add it to a signal that it does not comprehend.

I guess I will have to wait and see.

- Rich

ccotenj

09-13-07, 04:49 PM

RichB

09-13-07, 05:44 PM

if you don't go to the radiance before going to the receiver, you won't be able to take advantage of the audio-sync feature...

i was told that the audio-sync would work... i don't know if those who are under the nda can comment on that...

One way or another during normal operation it has to go to the Lumagen first and Lumagen to the display makes the most sense. Then send one output to the screen and the other to the Preamp.

The Preamp could loop back to the Lumagen on another input. Then for OSD, I would just have to have a setting for the Lumagen to output 720P for the OSD to work. Anyway, it should be doable.

- Rich

dsinger

09-13-07, 07:09 PM

I think that Gordon's method was best, although, I would be surprised if the OSD was available with pass-through mode. Unmolested means no OSD, I think because how would it be able to add it to a signal that it does not comprehend.

I guess I will have to wait and see.

- Rich

Rich: I am currently using method 2. All 3 inputs; STB, Pioneer HD1 and PS3 go directly by HDMI to the RXV-2700. From there by HDMI to the Radiance input 1. Each input is calabrated differently and those settings are in memories A, B and C. (respectively) for the Radiance input 1. Instead of changing Radiance inputs as in method 1, I change the memory that is used. Regarding OSD, after your comments I verified mine. The input was the STB and the OSD appeared when selected using the Yamaha remote. The STB input resolution was 1080i. The OSD resolution is listed as 480p by the Radiance.

escon

09-13-07, 07:41 PM

One way or another during normal operation it has to go to the Lumagen first and Lumagen to the display makes the most sense. Then send one output to the screen and the other to the Preamp.

The Preamp could loop back to the Lumagen on another input. Then for OSD, I would just have to have a setting for the Lumagen to output 720P for the OSD to work. Anyway, it should be doable.

- Rich
Am I right in thinking that the only thing you would loose by connecting the audio output of the XD to your amp/receiver via S/PDIF (Coax or Opto) would be Multichannel Linear PCM? This how I currently have my DVDO VP50 connected for audio. All sources first go to the VP inputs to ensure proper audio lip sync. HDMI Video directly out to the display and audio to the amp via S/PDIF.

vigga

09-13-07, 08:04 PM

I have decided to use either the Lumagen's dual outputs, or going all sources to the lumagen first, then to the receiver, then to the display.
My rationale is that many receivers (and mine in particular) tends to muck up HDMI information being sent back to the sources. It is capable of passing all types of signals - just sometimes I can't get the sources to send what I want when the receiver is the in the way of my VP. I use a Denon 3806 - but many receivers have these problems. To bypass this all of my sources will be directly connected to the Lumagen. From there i'll either run the signal through the Denon to the display, or use the dual HDMI outputs. I'm still not sure - I have wiring in place for both.

RichB

09-13-07, 08:45 PM

Am I right in thinking that the only thing you would loose by connecting the audio output of the XD to your amp/receiver via S/PDIF (Coax or Opto) would be Multichannel Linear PCM? This how I currently have my DVDO VP50 connected for audio. All sources first go to the VP inputs to ensure proper audio lip sync. HDMI Video directly out to the display and audio to the amp via S/PDIF.

Actually, I think LPCM will work but raw DTS_HD, DD+, and Dolby TrueHD will not work until the XD has HDMI 1.3. The current players do not pass it anyway.

- Rich

thebland

09-13-07, 09:23 PM

Does each input on the Radiance have its own lipsync preset?

sfogg

09-13-07, 09:25 PM

"Actually, I think LPCM will work but raw DTS_HD, DD+, and Dolby TrueHD will not work until the XD has HDMI 1.3. The current players do not pass it anyway."

At best you could get two channels of LPCM over S/PDIF but not the 6 or 8 that HDMI is capable of.

Shawn

RichB

09-13-07, 09:39 PM

sfogg

09-13-07, 09:50 PM

Rich,

The post you quoted is talking about HDMI in and S/PDIF output.

Shawn

RichB

09-13-07, 09:55 PM

Rich,

The post you quoted is talking about HDMI in and S/PDIF output.

Shawn

OK. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I think I found a small reason why HDMI 1.3 could be useful down the line.

- Rich

ripclawsa

09-14-07, 02:18 AM

As far as video outputs go, the Radiance only offers 2 HDMI outputs, correct? What happens if I screw up some settings in the Radiance and I don't get a picture out of it? How do I then go back into the Radiance to change the screwed up setting to the correct value? Or do I have to reset the Radiance?

VirusKiller

09-14-07, 03:16 AM

A quick reminder that, if you use the Radiance genlock feature, the video clock is subtly varied to maintain the correct output refresh rate. This is not a good thing for audio jitter. The second HDMI output has an independent clock and should be used for audio in this case (either 720p with blanked video or a direct copy of the source).

Actually, unless you *require* lipsync in the Radiance, I think using the direct copy of the source to the second HDMI output is the better option for all HDMI audio.

escon

09-14-07, 04:56 AM

A quick reminder that, if you use the Radiance genlock feature, the video clock is subtly varied to maintain the correct output refresh rate. This is not a good thing for audio jitter. The second HDMI output has an independent clock and should be used for audio in this case (either 720p with blanked video or a direct copy of the source).
Interesting point. Does the XD have a "pass-through" lock facility like the DVDO VPXX series, i.e. where the output is locked to the input?

VirusKiller

09-14-07, 05:18 AM

Phil - Take a look at this post from earlier in the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10600888#post10600888

Gordon Fraser

09-14-07, 06:02 AM

ripclawsa.

On Lumagens, when altering video timings when you select "ok" to make the changes it does them, then, if you don't press OK again to say they worked it rolls back to previous setting and the image will re-appear.

If you make some other change that somehow loses your image you can turn the scaler off and on and it goes back to its last saved state automatically.

Gordon
Gordon

escon

09-14-07, 06:25 AM

Phil - Take a look at this post from earlier in the thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10600888#post10600888
Thanks. Whilst I did scan read this thread a couple of weeks ago, I certainly haven't remembered it all ;). Not sure that I have understood completely what Jim said though. I think I'm misunderstanding the meaning of "genlock" here. What I'm after is to have the scaled/de-interlaced output of the VP remain locked to the input frame rate so that we don't get the occassional dropped frame. Has that topic been covered/canvased?

sfogg

09-14-07, 08:53 AM

"think I'm misunderstanding the meaning of "genlock" here. What I'm after is to have the scaled/de-interlaced output of the VP remain locked to the input frame rate so that we don't get the occassional dropped frame."

That is what Genlock is. See Lumagen's explanation here:

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=faq_vis

Shawn

escon

09-14-07, 09:08 AM

Thanks Shawn. I'm reading through it now. So, genlock does what I thought it did/meant. Why were some posters then suggesting that some frames may be dropped/doubled? That would only happen if you were running in "unlock" mode and you had the output frame rate set to the nominal frame rate of your input source. I know it was in relation to the audio jitter, but if the VP's clock in kept in sync with the incoming frame clock, there should not be any clock speed adjustments - exactly what you want to avoid jitter. So the best option should be to make the second HDMI output an exact copy of the incoming signal, which suggests that you should avoid frame rate conversion and only use genlock. Locking to an exact multiple of the incoming frame rate should be OK too. Am I missing something here?

mlang46

09-15-07, 12:04 PM

Well, you'll have to wait at least 4 months for the RadianceXG. Even if Lumagen is able to deliver on the target release date (Q1 2007), it could be as much as 6 months. Are you willing to wait that long? Personally, I've ordered the VP50. Thanks to the great international upgrade program it was no difficult decision. If the Lumagen is as good as it sounds, I can still sell the VP50 next year and buy the Lumagen instead.

I want to buy a JVC Rs2 . will this processor give me complete color correction from your description it looks like it will

also I have a stereo system with analog Accuphase electronics. does this system have an analog stereo output

escon

09-15-07, 09:01 PM

I want to buy a JVC Rs2 . will this processor give me complete color correction from your description it looks like it will

also I have a stereo system with analog Accuphase electronics. does this system have an analog stereo output
Not according to their brochure. (http://www.lumagen.com/docs/RadianceBrochure051607_hires.pdf)

VirusKiller

09-16-07, 03:58 AM

A full colour management system (correction of a display's primaries) is a published feature thought it is not in the brochure.

No analog outs though.

escon

09-16-07, 04:15 AM

A full colour management system (correction of a display's primaries) is a published feature thought it is not in the brochure.

No analog outs though.
That's interesting Viruskiller. Do you happen to know for certain if the CMS adjustments are available on a per input basis? I'm thinking here of RGB gain and offset and perhaps gamma as well?

VirusKiller

09-16-07, 04:48 AM

That's interesting Viruskiller. Do you happen to know for certain if the CMS adjustments are available on a per input basis? I'm thinking here of RGB gain and offset and perhaps gamma as well?Phil, that's a big yes. In fact, apart from the superb NoRing scaling, this is IMO the main reason for buying a Lumagen.

With Lumagens, the inputs are calibrated separately to the display. With the Vision series you have the full calibration apparatus available on a per-memory basis (inputs and outputs). From the HDQ manual:
Black-level, contrast, calibration per memory
Color, red-color-offset, green-color-offset calibration per memory
Hue, red-Hue-offset, green-Hue-offset calibration per memory
Y/C delay calibration with independent CB and CR delayPlus gamma adjustments.

With the Radiance, you'll get all of this plus adjustment of primaries for calibrating the displays with overly large gamuts, and maybe more.

escon

09-16-07, 06:18 AM

Thanks for your full reply VirusKiller. I'd like to read up more on the Vision products, but I could not find any links for on-line manuals for any of the models. Do you know of any? TIA.

Gordon Fraser

09-16-07, 06:55 AM

Mamuals and technical tips
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals

escon

09-16-07, 07:14 AM

Mamuals and technical tips
http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=manuals
Doh, how did I miss that?? Thanks.

oferlaor

09-16-07, 09:19 AM

about the beta status, it's a question of terminology. I had the HDP Pro since it was early beta and the progress made in terms of featureset and picture quality are truly astounding.

However, if Lumagen had waited until they had even 50% of the features in place the product would already be extinct.

BTW, can anyone confirm if the unit can take in HDMI inputs and decode the audio into SPDIF output for an A/V receiver?

rrg

09-16-07, 12:15 PM

BTW, can anyone confirm if the unit can take in HDMI inputs and decode the audio into SPDIF output for an A/V receiver?Yes, it will be able to do this for Dolby Digital and DTS, but not for the higher-resolution audio codecs (DD+, Dolby True HD, etc.) which can't be transported over SPDIF.

ptrubey

09-16-07, 11:20 PM

My receiver does not have HDMI inputs, so I am using analog outputs from my blu-ray player to the pre-amp. Video goes from the Blu-ray to my current VisionHDP to my display.

With the new RadianceXD, if I were to continue doing this (and I don't see an alternative if I want the best high resolution sound), I would miss out on the audio sync capabilities.

My question is how important is audio sync in the RadianceXD? I haven't seen a need for it in my current VisionHDP setup, will the RadianceXD add noticible video processing delay?

Note that I can have the pre-amp add in delay for audio...

Frank D

09-17-07, 12:21 AM

ripclawsa

09-17-07, 01:56 AM

dsinger

09-17-07, 08:27 AM

thebland

09-17-07, 09:28 AM

Does the Radiance have individual, per input sync delay controls?

escon

09-17-07, 07:53 PM

Does the Radiance have individual, per input sync delay controls?
I can't find the wording in the specs I've read that says that explicitly, but if it's like other VPs that have sound routing included, it would have to, as the delay is dependant on the video processing time which in turn depnds on the mode it's in (SD or HD) and what other processes it's doing at the time (like de-interlacing and NRs for example). The DVDO VPs and Crystalio CII's certainly do.

Usually, it automatically sets the correct delay for each chosen configuration (and therefore input) and then allow the user to add or subtract from that.

Run for your health! Detroit Marathon Oct 21 2007. Goal time: 3:50:00. If you look down from your keyboard and see your gut and not your belt buckle, time to get out there!!

P.S. I need to go for another run now :D.

ptrubey

09-18-07, 12:44 AM

Has Lumagen set a price/availability for the HDMI to analog converter box?

escon

09-18-07, 03:56 AM

Has Lumagen set a price/availability for the HDMI to analog converter box?
Not that I am aware off. I'd also like to know if the SDI to HDMI converter has been finalised yet and its price.

Dave G

09-18-07, 07:26 AM

This is the Lumagen RadianceXD FAQ. It contains general questions about the XD. Specific usage/tips/topical articles will be posted in a different thread.

Who's Lumagen?
From their website:
Lumagen (http://www.lumagen.com) is a privately held video systems product company that was founded in September of 2001. We are headquartered in Beaverton, Oregon where we beaver away at equipping home theaters with the technology to make movies jump off the screen. Lumagen provides solutions for video switching, calibration, plus deinterlacing and scaling. Together these allow knowledgeable integrators and enthusiasts to provide the best quality and most accurate video images for their home theater installations.

What's the RadianceXD?
The new video processor from Lumagen. No space, it's a single word: "RadianceXD". Yes, there's a typo in the the thread title! X stands for eXtreme video (performance wise) and D stands for Dual hdmi outputs.

What's a video processor, and why do I need one?
The same way a receiver or preamplifier is dedicated to handling the sound of your home theater setup, a video processor handles all that is picture related: deinterlacing, scaling, picture enhancements, color correction, and much more. Although modern displays and receivers offer some of these functions, most simply lack the sophistication and functionality of a dedicated video processor (vp). That said, regardless of their limitations, the functions in your display or receiver might very well be sufficient for your needs. Read on to figure out if the RadianceXD might suit your home theater needs.

Can you describe the basic capabilities of the XD?
The XD offers many video and sound inputs and outputs. As such it will act not only as a vp, but also as switcher/hub in your setup.
Video inputs:

6 hdmi
4 component
4 s-video
4 composite

Audio inputs:

6 hdmi
4 analog stereo
8 spdif (6 coax, 2 optical)

Outputs:

2 hdmi (video + sound)
2 spdif (coax)

Any combination of video and audio input can be used, so you can for example get your video from an hdmi input and the sound from one of the spdif inputs. The sound, regardless of its input of origin, can then be redirected to one or both of the hdmi outputs and/or to the spdif outputs (keeping in mind the spdif outputs can carry at most 2 channels of PCM sound).
The video can be output to either or both of the hdmi outputs. The XD uses the Sigma Designs (formerly Gennnum) VXP 9450 chip for deinterlacing and picture enhancements, and its own algorithms for everything else (scaling, color correction).
Functionality:

advanced per pixel SD/HD deinterlacing
Lumagen proprietary "no ring" scaling (considered the best in the industry)
Color Management System (CMS) for complete display and source calibration: independent gamut correction of primaries and secondaries, full range (11 point) grayscale and gamma parametric correction
per input/per resolution picture enhancement: sharpness, noise reduction (2D/3D noise, mosquito noise, block artifact), adaptive contrast
per input/per resolution size control: cropping, masking, vertical shift, non linear stretch
always active hdmi inputs (i.e. the hdcp chain is not broken when you switch to another input)
4 memories per input (A, B, C, D), and for each of these 8 subresolution memories, allow extreme flexibility and customization
8 output configuration memories
down to the pixel customizable output resolutions
support for anamorphic lens
RS232 control for automation

This list is of course far from exhaustive. The features that give the XD the edge over the competition are, in no particular order: its sheer performance (in terms of deinterlacing, scaling, fast switching, etc), its CMS, and its extreme flexibility in terms of customization and setup. This is a double edged sword: as a result of this flexibility, the XD is far from a plug-and-play toy. Its target market is first and foremost the custom installers, and then the 'serious' HT diyer. That said - I'm no Einstein, and I figured it all out, including the use of the CMS. So surely, you can too. Just be aware that there's a learning curve.

What is the price, and where can I find it?
MSRP is $4495. It used to be $3999, and preorder price (before the beta testing period ended) was even lower. Lumagen has formed a "strategic" partnership with Sencore (http://www.sencore.com/), the terms of which are unclear, but result in distribution rights for Sencore. The XD cannot be bought from Lumagen directly anymore. I'm not sure AVS still sell it. So - to answer the question; if you want to buy local and get the support that goes with it, check with an installer in your area. Even if you're the DIY type, don't think you'll find it cheaper online: Lumagen prevents sales at lower than MSRP. That doesn't mean deals can't be had however. Check out curtpalme.com (http://www.curtpalme.com) for a nice bundle with the i1 pro spectroradiometer and a Calman software license, both of which you'll need to take full advantage of the XD's calibration features. (And when I say "nice", that's the understatement of the century - go check it out for yourself.)

What version are the hdmi inputs and outputs?
1.1, although a new model (the RadianceXE) is planned with 1.3, and there will be an upgrade path for existing owners who have bought the XD before June 30th 2008 (or maybe anyone - I've read contradictory statements from Lumagen on this topic). The RadianceXE will be priced at $4995, and the cost of the upgrade will be $1000.

I really need hdmi 1.3! When is the XE coming out?
Do you, really? The one and only usable feature that 1.3 offers over 1.1 is advanced codecs bitstream ("deep color" is useless, since no source offers it - and no source will anytime soon). If your HD device can decode those codecs on board, then it's pretty pointless to want to send bitstream anyway. Even if it can't, all is not lost! You can place you hdmi 1.3 receiver between the device and the XD - problem solved! Unless, of course, your receiver messes with the video signal along the way. Some receivers, for example, do not pass blacker-than-black or whiter-than-white signal. But if that's the case, you should lobby the manufacturer for a firmware fix, or get a different receiver. See - you just think you need hdmi 1.3 :). In any case, the latest from Lumagen on the topic is that beta 1.3 boards will be available by the end of October 08, and the XE will ship Q1 09. In view of the XD's considerable delays, I wouldn't hold my breath. Lumagen's delays are not a bad thing, because they try to get things out the door right as opposed to early. Just be prepared to wait on the XE is all I'm saying. And remember, the XD is available now, and the XE will NOT bring any performance improvement whatsoever over the XD. None.

You say the XD is “extremely flexible” – what makes it so?
A seemingly endless number of settings for one, and a healthy supply of configuration memories to let you apply those settings any which way you want. Let’s dive in.

First, any given setting typically resides in one of three categories: global, output configuration or input configuration.

There is only one global memory - i.e., one set of global settings. Global settings behave like you’d expect them to; you set them, and the XD happily complies. Global settings govern the overall behavior of the XD, and are not directly related to picture processing. For example: menu mode (user vs. service), front LED behavior (dark or lit). The audio setup is also a global setting, but can be built to depend on your currently active input/output configuration.

Output configurations contain settings directly related to your display, such as: resolution and frequency, aspect ratio, zoom, gamut correction, grayscale and gamma, contrast/brightness, hdmi output format, etc. There are 8 output configuration memories, named Config0 to Config7. Why so many? First, the XD allows you to drive two different displays (two hdmi outputs), so that’s two memories right there. Second, even if you are always sending the same resolution signal to your display (say 1080p) you might want to vary the frequency, say 1080p24 for movies and 1080p60 for tv; add 1080p50 in PAL territories - each of these require separate output configs. Eight configurations might seem like a lot but some people (particularly in non-NTSC territories) have actually asked Lumagen to double that number. Unfortunately this doesn’t look likely to happen.

Input configurations contain settings directly related to the source devices plugged into the XD, such as: input color format, audio input used, contrast/brightness, color and hue correction, YC delay, cropping, masking, picture enhancements (sharpness, noise reduction, adaptive contrast), etc. All these are controls that will most of the time have different values across different source devices. For example, you will apply a different YC delay correction to your DVD player than you will your cable box. Knowing this, you probably expect 18 input configuration memories (the XD has 18 physical video inputs; 6 hdmi, 4 component, 4 s-video, 4 composite). In fact, there are 4 input memories per physical input (A, B, C, and D). So you can set up and apply 4 different configurations per input. Why would you want to do this? A typical application would be ISF day/night settings, where a different setup is used depending on ambient light (i.e. depending on the time of the day). Or, a setup with an anamorphic lens is used with a projector to allow for constant height projection. Different settings will apply depending on the aspect ratio of the source material, i.e., depending on whether the lens is in the light path or not…

… but the truth is, there is more than 18 input configuration memories! Way more. Each input memory (hdmi 1A, hdmi 1B, … all the way to composite 4D) has multiple resolution submemories. Eight of them for HD inputs (hdmi, component), two of them for SD inputs (composite, s-video). What does this mean? Well, the submemory that will be active (and whose settings will be used) depends on the signal feeding that input. For example, a cable box may send a 480i signal (SD channels), or a 1080i signal (HD channels). On my XD, the cable box is plugged into input 7 (component). So the XD will be using the 7A-480i, or 7A-1080i memory, depending on the program I am watching. This is useful because SD and HD are generally different types of signals, compressed differently, using different color spaces, etc – with all of their potential issues being addressable individually. The eight standard resolution submemories for HD inputs are: 480(i/p), 576(i/p), 720p, 1080i50, 1080i60, 1080p24, 1080p60 and Other. The ‘Other’ submemory is a catch all that gets used if none of the other resolutions are a match for the input signal. Each of the submemory resolutions (except for Other) can be customized, so you can replace say 1080i50 with 720p24 (an AppleTV format) if you want to. SD inputs have only two resolution submemories: 480(i/p) and 576(i/p).

The most important setting within an input configuration memory is… which output configuration will be used. A configuration output (ConfigX) can be assigned to each and every one of the input submemories in the XD. A simple setup, in NTSC-only land, will probably use the same output configuration set to 1080p60 for all inputs (in fact for all input submemories). If the display accepts 24Hz, then a 1080p24 output configuration should be used to pass that signal when appropriate. If you live in PAL territory, add a 1080p50 config to the mix. If your XD is driving a second display (mine is), then you will want to use another batch of input memories (MEMB) to assign a second set of output configurations. Remember, you can’t use the same output configurations for two different displays, even if they have the same native resolution, because they have different needs in terms of color/grayscale calibration.

And there you have it. See - I wasn’t lying when I said that the XD is not exactly plug’n’play. However if you can wrap your head around this then you know almost all there is to know about setting up the XD.

---

(This is the revised edition of the FAQ. The "preproduction" version of it can be found here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14630298#post14630298).)

nashou66

09-18-07, 09:59 AM

Nice write up! I still am pushing for a blending feature!!! I wonder how serious they really are about it. On my poll over in the crt forum there are over 50 people who want this feature and at least 40 of them will only buy it if it does have it! Hopefully they'll do it in a future firmware or maybe with the pro model that "might" come out. Even a stand alone blend unit that works along side existing lumagen scalers would be acceptable!

Athanasios

RichB

09-18-07, 04:13 PM

I just orderd my Radiance!!

I cannot wait to try it out and not tell anyone about it :p

My Lumagen HDQ is up for sale in the Market place is anyone is interested.

- Rich

Dave G

09-18-07, 04:53 PM

Thanks Nashou. I'll update tonight with an 'existing/promised features' section and a 'wanted/possible features' section. The blending goes into the latter for now.

slackmack

09-19-07, 12:33 AM

Since some members on the XD pre-buy list will be upgrading to the JVC RS-2, which is HDMI 1.3 compatible, does this present any issues for the initial production version of the XD?

Dave G

09-19-07, 12:53 AM

Since some members on the XD pre-buy list will be upgrading to the JVC RS-2, which is HDMI 1.3 compatible, does this present any issues for the initial production version of the XD?What issues are you thinking about? 1.3 is backward compatible with 1.1.

Dave G

09-19-07, 01:14 AM

Added info about HDMI version/upgradeability, trade-in program, and discussed features.

VirusKiller

09-19-07, 03:16 AM

What issues are you thinking about? 1.3 is backward compatible with 1.1.I'm not sure what the internal processor is in the RS2, but I imagine it has a 10-bit pipeline. You'll be able to feed it either a 10-bit or 12-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr signal. It's not DeepColor per se, but it will be perfectly adequate.

THE_COW_IS_OK

09-19-07, 09:22 AM

Will the radiance ever support HDMI 1.3?

jigesh

09-19-07, 09:34 AM

Will the radiance ever support HDMI 1.3?

As per these Radiance FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909924):

Does it have HDMI 1.3?

No, "only" 1.1, but the inputs and outputs are upgradeable. Timeframe and price not known at this point.

VirusKiller

09-19-07, 09:38 AM

Will the radiance ever support HDMI 1.3?Lumagen has said that it intends to provide an upgrade path. However, it has also said that there is little reason for HDMI 1.3 from a video perspective at this point.

The 10-bit or 12-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr signals supported by HDMI v1.2 (and earlier) should be perfectly adequate as most display devices competently upsample chroma from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. Most display devices' internal processing is limited to 10 bits anyway so the 16-bit capability provided by v1.3 is simply that - a capability. There won't be devices that use the 16-bit Deep Color mode (in any meaningful sense) for some time, and 10 or 12 output bits are adequate when performing video processing on 8-bit inputs without causing banding.

If you wish to pass the new HD audio bitstreams then you have a problem, but most players decode these bitstreams internally anyway.

jamesmil

09-19-07, 02:22 PM

jrp

09-19-07, 03:21 PM

Just back from CEDIA and other biz activities. Thought I would confirm a couple of things.

- The RadianceXD has between 20 mS (genlock) and 38mS (non-genlock) in the USA. This is much less than most other processors, including our Vision series. So, audio delay is much less of an issue, and we have had several Beta users say they have now set their audio delay to 0.

- Audio delay will be on a per-input-memory basis.

- We plan to have a way to quickly change the audio delay in case a programming change affects the preset.

- Audio delay will be in a release shortly after the first production software release. We lowered it's priority since it is much less of an issue now.

- HDMI 1.1 in the RadianceXD support 8-channel PCM. At this point all the information I have says source devices are not even allowed to output the uncomproessed formats as bit-stream. So the HDMI 1.3 bit-stream support is moot. Even if sources were allowed to output bit-stream there is no advantage to do so -- these are uncompressed streams so the resulting data is the same independent of where they are decoded. So, there is no reason to need HDMI 1.3 for these audio formats. Perhaps sometime in the future this might change if a new format is introduced, but for the current uncompressed formats HDMI 1.1 works fine.

- For video, since the sources are 8-bit compressed to less than 8-bit signal-to-noise, the current 12-bit 4:2:2 video format of HDMI 1.1 is more than is needed.

Bear5k

09-19-07, 03:22 PM

I might have missed this point in the thread...

Can the inputs of the RadienceXD be pointed at the two ouputs independantly? (ie. can you send Input 1 to Output 1 while also routing Input 2 to Output 2 at the same time?) If so, are there any processing limitations to doing this (no PiP, limted deinterlacing, etc)?
This may be a feature for a higher-end unit, but the XD's outputs are basically like a smart splitter (see above for audio discussion).

Bill

jrp

09-19-07, 03:24 PM

Can the inputs of the RadienceXD be pointed at the two ouputs independantly?

The RadianceXD outputs one selected input to one or both outputs. You can't select two inputs and send each to a different output.

jrp

09-19-07, 04:16 PM

RichB

09-19-07, 07:49 PM

As I upgrade my components all of them are turning black.
Is there a possibility for an optional black faceplate?

Thanks,

Rich

Dave G

09-19-07, 07:58 PM

Today's (big) update:
- link to a post and quote from jrp about the usefulness of HDMI 1.3 vs 1.1
- confirmation of audio delay per input support
- name for the 'XD Pro' (the XS), and a few more details (sort of)
- question about upgradeability
- question about multiple output
- minor corrections (typos etc)

Next I will zero in on the posts that explain input (sub)memories and try to summarize this feature. I'm sure it's less complicated than it sounds in writing... But it *does* sound complicated. :)

jrp

09-20-07, 01:16 AM

As I upgrade my components all of them are turning black.
Is there a possibility for an optional black faceplate?

We do have an optional black facia. The first batch is actually at laser-etch this week. So, we should be able to ship them next week.

We are charging a $200 premium for the black facia option since it is extra work verses the standard facia.

escon

09-20-07, 01:47 AM

On Lumagen's Color Management System (CMS):

We are adding primary gamut control to the Radiance series. This will be a big help for displays/projectors such as the JVC RS1 which have primary colors outside the Rec 709 triangle. In addition we are changing how some of the CMS is configured.

Gamut, grayscale and gamma will be part of output configurations. In the Vision series grayscale/gamma were part of input memories, but we felt that they should now be associated with a particular output configuration since they are calibrations intended to correct for display/projector anomallies.

You can still select different output configurations on a per-input-memory basis by pointing each memory to a specific output configuration. There are 8 output configurations, so if you wanted you could, say, have two output configurations for a JVC RS1: one for Rec 709 color, and one for an extended color gamut. You would just use two different output configurations and select them by setting up, say, input memory "A" to select one and input memory "B" to select the other.

Color, Hue and Color/Hue offsets, are still part of the input memory. These are normally used to correct for color decoder errors in a display. However, we have seen sources - especially analog component inputs - where the input needs to be adjusted as well as the display. By putting it with the input memory one control serves both functions.

Black and contrast are part of the input-memory "resolution sub-memories," so differences between inputs, and between SD and HD source levels from satellite and cable providers, can be corrected. Note there are eight input resolution/vertical-rate submemories in the RadianceXD. Seven of these are user selectable for input resolution and vertical-rate and provide for independent calibration of each input resolution. The eighth sub-memory is a catch all "other."
Hi Jim,

I'm new to this thread. I currently have a DVDO VP50 and I'm thinking about "upgrading" to the Radiance XD.

One of the reasons for jumping ship so to speak to the XD, is that if offers more CMS control than the upcoming VP50Pro. I find that some of my digital sources need colour correction with a greater degree of precision than that offered by the VP50Pro.

From the latest info you've just posted above, it looks like you're thinking of rearanging some of the Colour Management controls.

So that I fully understand the new implementation, could I ask if you wouldn't mind giving a full description of the various terminologies you use - I'm fairly new to all of this, so I may not fully understand all of it.

On a per-input basis, including HDMI and Analog inputs, which colour control parameters can be set?

For example, you mention Color, Hue and Color/Hue offsets. Does color mean here individual RGB gain control? Does Hue mean interdependant Red and Green gain control ala tint control, or R/G offset (black level) control? Color offset would mean individual RGB black level control?

Under the output CMS control you list gamut, grayscale and gamma. Could you spell out exactly what you include under gamut - does it include contrast and brightness for example?

TIA.

madshi

09-20-07, 03:30 AM

- HDMI 1.1 in the RadianceXD support 8-channel PCM. At this point all the information I have says source devices are not even allowed to output the uncomproessed formats as bit-stream. So the HDMI 1.3 bit-stream support is moot. Even if sources were allowed to output bit-stream there is no advantage to do so -- these are uncompressed streams so the resulting data is the same independent of where they are decoded. So, there is no reason to need HDMI 1.3 for these audio formats. Perhaps sometime in the future this might change if a new format is introduced, but for the current uncompressed formats HDMI 1.1 works fine.
First let me say that I agree that HDMI 1.3 bitstream support is not that important. I could well live without it. But I have some information which contradicts yours: Amir (MS) has clearly stated that bitstream output is allowed for HD DVD players and the XA2 is supposed to get bitstream output with a firmware update this year. Furthermore one of the Sony Blu-Ray players just got a firmware update which did enable bitstream output. So it's very clear that bitstream output *is* allowed. I see 3 advantages to bitstream:

(1) According to Amir audio jitter may behave a bit better when using bitstream instead of PCM.

(2) Currently no source device supports decoding of DTS-HD Master Audio. There are some receivers which do. So in those situations having bitstream support would be the only way to get the full Master Audio information decoded. But this is only a short time problem. In the longer run probably all good HD DVD and Blu-Ray players will have all decoders built in, I think.

(3) I'm rather guessing but I'm not sure if every device is equally good at applying Dialog Normalization. It's a "feature" forced upon us by the Dolby licensing requirements. When using PCM transport the source device has to apply dialnorm. When using bitstream the receiver applies dialnorm. I could imagine that the receiver may have a better way to do that. E.g. the receiver could apply dialnorm in the analog stage instead of in the digital stage. But the experts don't really agree on whether doing dialnorm in the digital stage harms the audio quality or not. Some people say yes, others say there's no audible damage. At least bitdepth is reduced a bit.

mikela

09-20-07, 09:50 AM

- For video, since the sources are 8-bit compressed to less than 8-bit signal-to-noise, the current 12-bit 4:2:2 video format of HDMI 1.1 is more than is needed.

Hi Jim,

Just to be clear, will the XD be transmitting a 10 bit signal over HDMI to the RS1 to reduce the possibility of banding?

Mike

VirusKiller

09-20-07, 10:47 AM

From earlier in this thread:

We process internally in YCbCr.

Unless you have a PC source, the source is encoded in YCbCb, so YCbCr will be the best way to send it to the RadianceXD. We have the YCbCr input formats in the Beta software at this point.

We also suggest the output use YCbCr 4:2:2 to drive an HDMI display/projector. This will allow up to 12-bits being sent to the display. We process at 10-bits, but will have 12-bits out of the palette that does grayscale and gamma. If gamma correction is being applied having the full 12-bits of the HDMI 4:2:2 format is nice to have whne uning gamma correction. We will also dither to 10-bit or even 8-bit with the 4:2:2 output format. The 4:2:2 output format is not in the Beta software yet.

Since it seems most (All?) current generation diplay and projectors have a color/hue even for RGB input mode, they need to conver the RGB to YCbCr internally to do this.. So, in this case, using 4:2:2 from the RadianceXD will eliminate a conversion inside the display.

Kris Deering

09-20-07, 12:21 PM

Hi Jim,

Just to be clear, will the XD be transmitting a 10 bit signal over HDMI to the RS1 to reduce the possibility of banding?

Mike

It should reduce the chances of banding but the RS1 does a LOT of color conversions internally so the XD is the least of your worries.

mikela8

09-20-07, 12:32 PM

From earlier in this thread:

:D

mikela8

09-20-07, 12:37 PM

It should reduce the chances of banding but the RS1 does a LOT of color conversions internally so the XD is the least of your worries.

Please elaborate. I was under the impression that, with the exception of the saturation issue, the RS1 was did a relatively good job at color decoding, gamma, etc.

Mike

VirusKiller

09-20-07, 04:44 PM

Color conversions in the RS1 are minimized if you feed it a 1080p YCbCr signal. The only conversion required is the YCbCr --> RGB in order to drive the D-ILA panels.

TomHuffman

09-20-07, 04:57 PM

Please elaborate. I was under the impression that, with the exception of the saturation issue, the RS1 was did a relatively good job at color decoding, gamma, etc.I think what Kris refers to has nothing to do with color decoding or gamma. It has to do with the RS1 performing proper color space mapping. For example, early versions had a bug whereby a 480i YCbCr 4:2:2 input rendered the wrong colors. This may or may not have been fixed.

mikela8

09-20-07, 07:18 PM

I think what Kris refers to has nothing to do with color decoding or gamma. It has to do with the RS1 performing proper color space mapping. For example, early versions had a bug whereby a 480i YCbCr 4:2:2 input rendered the wrong colors. This may or may not have been fixed.

Aaah yes...I believe those issues were addressed by the recent firmware releases. Though I don't recall seeing any test data that validates this.

slackmack

09-20-07, 07:19 PM

We process internally in YCbCr.

Unless you have a PC source, the source is encoded in YCbCb, so YCbCr will be the best way to send it to the RadianceXD. We have the YCbCr input formats in the Beta software at this point.

We also suggest the output use YCbCr 4:2:2 to drive an HDMI display/projector. This will allow up to 12-bits being sent to the display. We process at 10-bits, but will have 12-bits out of the palette that does grayscale and gamma. If gamma correction is being applied having the full 12-bits of the HDMI 4:2:2 format is nice to have whne uning gamma correction. We will also dither to 10-bit or even 8-bit with the 4:2:2 output format. The 4:2:2 output format is not in the Beta software yet.

Since it seems most (All?) current generation diplay and projectors have a color/hue even for RGB input mode, they need to conver the RGB to YCbCr internally to do this.. So, in this case, using 4:2:2 from the RadianceXD will eliminate a conversion inside the display.

As I read these posts regarding the XD, I am getting concerned that setting this unit up properly is complex, with all the alphabet soup you experts keep referencing. I set up my own HT with the RS-1, Carada 128" screen, Prismasonic FE1500R (awaiting the XD for vertical stretch), Onkyo 805, Blu-ray player, etc., but without seeing the actual user's guide, I am wondering if I will be in over my head trying to get the proper settings for my 2.35 theater. Is it really this complex?

Frank D

09-20-07, 08:33 PM

As I read these posts regarding the XD, I am getting concerned that setting this unit up properly is complex, with all the alphabet soup you experts keep referencing. I set up my own HT with the RS-1, Carada 128" screen, Prismasonic FE1500R (awaiting the XD for vertical stretch), Onkyo 805, Blu-ray player, etc., but without seeing the actual user's guide, I am wondering if I will be in over my head trying to get the proper settings for my 2.35 theater. Is it really this complex?

No, it is not as complex as you are gathering from reading the various posts. It is meant to be a flexible product especially if you have more than one source, which most of us usually do. If you set up your own HT you should not have any issues using the Radiance.

Joelc

09-20-07, 09:26 PM

No, it is not as complex as you are gathering from reading the various posts. It is meant to be a flexible product especially if you have more than one source, which most of us usually do. If you set up your own HT you should not have any issues using the Radiance.

I will expand on this a bit...it is relativekly easy to get 80% out of the unit...the additional does, based on my experience, require some degree of knowledge and expertise.

Gordon Fraser

09-21-07, 03:19 AM

I think it's fair to say that to paraphrase Spiderman's Uncle....
"with great power comes great configureability" hahaha....

Anyway, the thing about powerful devices like the Lumagens is that they have extra capabilities that you may or may not use. Alot of what is talked about here are the extra capabilities over and above a "normal" video processor. Currently for the Vision range there are tech tip document on the Lumagen website and there are downloadable basic set up guides and advanced calibration guides on the support forum. I would imagine that the same sorts of documents will be created for the Radiance when its firmware is production level. With these documents anyone should be able to do a pretty good configuration and set up themself and if you can't then there are plenty of folk who will be willing to step in and help you.

Gordon

Dave G

09-21-07, 10:37 PM

Added link to the Radiance FAQ - I was poking around Lumagen's site when I found it. I don't remember seeing a link for it in the main XD thread (I may have missed it.) In any case, in the FAQ it goes. As a result, also updated the answer about the no-ring scaling.

Dave G

09-21-07, 10:57 PM

Added more info about the video delay feature.

Dave G

09-22-07, 12:34 AM

I finally figured out the input/output memory configuration thingy. I think. Let me know if you think I goofed. :o

Dave G

09-22-07, 12:41 AM

Guys,

I have added an explanation of the XD's output configuration memories to the XD FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909924). I'd really appreciate feedback on it if my assumptions are incorrect. After reading and re-reading the posts in this thread on the topic, I finally wrapped my head around it - I think! It's one of those concepts that's more difficult to explain than its actual complexity calls for...

D_B_0673

09-22-07, 05:53 AM

dsinger

09-22-07, 09:14 AM

Jim and Company, (or anyone else who knows)
I just ordered my beta unit and should get in in a week or so.
Since I don't have a HDMI receiver and will be using Coax for audio into and out of the Radiance, is the audio delay features functioning for Coax. I understand you are still working on HDMI audio

Thanks

The audio delay currently does not work for coax. Use the delay in you receiver etc. Note the comments above about the amount of delay to use.

Dave G

09-22-07, 10:38 AM

Changed the wording a bit on the output configuration explanation.

Dave G

09-22-07, 08:34 PM

Added info about the external hdmi-rgbvh box.

Dave G

09-22-07, 10:28 PM

Still working my way (again) through the XD thread - the updates will be less frequent once I'm done :)

In any case;
- added a bit of info about the external SDI box
- added question about the CMS

slackmack

09-22-07, 11:38 PM

Dave G

09-22-07, 11:40 PM

Updated/corrected info re: competitive trade-in program.

D_B_0673

09-23-07, 04:51 PM

Can you keep us updated on the audio delay, both on HDMI and Coax (which I will use)
Thanks

Dave G

09-24-07, 12:10 AM

Can you keep us updated on the audio delay, both on HDMI and Coax (which I will use)
Thanks

Ask and you shall receive! Or something.

Anyhow - added more specifics about the audio delay feature (or lack thereof at this moment, as it were). I also PM'd Jim with a specific question about it, I'll post the answer here - if he responds that is. :)
Also new; more info about the CMS, though I must admit I have hard time wrapping my head around the concepts involved, PLUS it meshes with this whole memory configuration thing.

Finally; you don't even need to read my update posts anymore, you can just zero in on what's new (see top of the first post).

Oh, and thanks to whoever made this a sticky! :)

escon

09-24-07, 12:28 AM

Dave G

09-24-07, 12:37 AM

Thanks Dave for doing all of this - invaluable IMO.

I like everything I've read so far about the XD, but ouch, $200 for a black faceplate - let's hope that by the time the XD is finally released, black will be the only colour in fashion. Yes, I know, a lot of units have already been produced, but just hoping ;).
You're welcome!

I would have preferred black as well, but I don't think this is going to happen, and I am NOT springing two benjamins for this :). I'm guessing at some point maybe they could switch to the black plate as a standard, but it's probably pretty expensive to make this kind of production switch, especially that early in the cycle. We'll see.

jrp

09-24-07, 03:36 AM

...One of the reasons for jumping ship so to speak to the XD, is that if offers more CMS control than the upcoming VP50Pro. I find that some of my digital sources need colour correction with a greater degree of precision than that offered by the VP50Pro.

... could I ask if you wouldn't mind giving a full description of the various terminologies you use

...On a per-input basis, including HDMI and Analog inputs, which colour control parameters can be set?

For example, you mention Color, Hue and Color/Hue offsets. Does color mean here individual RGB gain control? Does Hue mean interdependant Red and Green gain control ala tint control, or R/G offset (black level) control? Color offset would mean individual RGB black level control?

Under the output CMS control you list gamut, grayscale and gamma. Could you spell out exactly what you include under gamut - does it include contrast and brightness for example?

I will try to give you some additional info.

It seems most people are using "Color Management System" (CMS) to describe the complete set of controls related to Chroma (color) and Luma (intensity). This includes "Color Gamut," gray-scale ("Color of gray"), gamma (the input to output Luma response curve), black level ("Brightness"), white level ("Contrast"). However, I have talked with some who seem to limit CMS to color-gamut.

"Color Gamut" describes how large the maximum color range is based on the "color primary points." Current displays use red, green and blue primaries. Upcoming displays may use more primaries for an extended color gamut. The color gamut on the JVC RS1 is larger than the standard specification (Rec 709). Gamut control allows the Radiance to correct this. Color gamut control is done in the RGB color space. Few video processors have this capability (I only know of the Lumagen Radiance at this point, but others may).

Color, Hue (also called Tint), and Color/Hue offsets are controls that work in the YCbCr color space (rather than RGB color space). Few video processors or displays have Color/Hue offsets (Lumagen video processor do), which are necessary to correct the red-push and green-push common in most displays and projectors sold.

Since color gamut controls the maximum color range and color/hue and their offsets control color saturation and phase for a given input, they are related, but unique, controls. For example, changing color-gamut affects Color and Hue, but changing Color or Hue does not appreciably affect color-gamut.

Note that color, and luminance can be described in either the RGB, or YCbCr color space (or a bunch of others, but we stick to these two). Both RGB and YCbCr can describe the same color/luminance value, although typically RGB is limited to the range of 0 to 1, and so cannot describe every color/luminance value that YCbCr can. Conceptually we do work in one of these color spaces or the other as appropriate for the given calculation. Color/Hue are done in the YCbCr color space. Gamma, gray-scale, color-gamut, black and white level are done in the RGB color space. If you remember your geometry, these are like the difference between Cartesian and Polar coordinates. They both can describe a point in space, but you would use one or the other depending on the problem you are trying to solve.

"Brightness" affects the black level of the image. In my opinion, black level is the most important calibration and can be done on any display/television - even without a video processor. If black level is too high, the image will look soft and/or washed-out. If black-level is too low, you will lose black detail ("black crush").

"Contrast" affects white level. It is also important and if not adjusted correctly can cause "white crush."

"Gray-scale" (also called "color-of-gray") specifies the "color-temperature" of the color "gray" from black to white. For color this is defined as "D65," a specific point on the CIE chromaticity diagram. Note "D65" has a color temperature of 6500K, but 6500K is not necessarily D65.

"Gamma" is the luminance response curve of the display. For historical reasons the display gamma is typically set to 2.2, but many professional calibrators prefer 2.4 or 2.5.

Radiance CMS controls:

Since grayscale, Gamma, and color Gamut are specific to the display, and not the sources, we have put these in the output configuration memory for Radiance. However, since we have 8 output configurations, and each input-sub-resolution-memory can point to a different output-configuration, inputs can have different color gamut, grayscale, or gamma calibrations. One reason you might want to do this is for the difference between watching color movies, which should have a grayscale of D65, and old black-and-white movies which should have a grayscale of D55.

Other CMS controls are on a per-input-sub-resolution (eight per input memory for Radiance) for each input-memory (four per input).

Hope this is helpful.

jrp

09-24-07, 04:17 AM

(0)...Amir (MS) has clearly stated that bitstream output is allowed for HD DVD players and the XA2 is supposed to get bitstream output with a firmware update this year. Furthermore one of the Sony Blu-Ray players just got a firmware update which did enable bitstream output. So it's very clear that bitstream output *is* allowed. I see 3 advantages to bitstream:

(1) According to Amir audio jitter may behave a bit better when using bitstream instead of PCM.

(2) Currently no source device supports decoding of DTS-HD Master Audio. There are some receivers which do. So in those situations having bitstream support would be the only way to get the full Master Audio information decoded. But this is only a short time problem. In the longer run probably all good HD DVD and Blu-Ray players will have all decoders built in, I think.

(3) I'm rather guessing but I'm not sure if every device is equally good at applying Dialog Normalization. It's a "feature" forced upon us by the Dolby licensing requirements. When using PCM transport the source device has to apply dialnorm. When using bitstream the receiver applies dialnorm. I could imagine that the receiver may have a better way to do that. E.g. the receiver could apply dialnorm in the analog stage instead of in the digital stage. But the experts don't really agree on whether doing dialnorm in the digital stage harms the audio quality or not. Some people say yes, others say there's no audible damage. At least bitdepth is reduced a bit.

(0) Well, my info is not first hand. So, this may be true. The issue as I understood it was one of license rights and not technical capability though.

(1) Technically, I don’t see how this can be true. The same clock extraction and generation circuitry is used for both. HDMI does not carry an audio clock. It is regenerated at the HDMI receiver chip using the ratio between the video and audio clock. I believe the quality of the clock de-jitter in the amp completely overshadows this in any case.

(2) Wasn’t aware of this. Of course this presumes point (0) is correct and the author of the source material allows the player to output the bitstream.

(3) Not sure I understand all the nuances of dialnorm, but I believe this can be corrected in the amp using a PCM input. Don’t see why not anyway. If analog is better to correct dialnorm, then the point is moot since the analog stage is last in either case and can’t care where the lossless decompression comes in the pipeline.