What does everyone think? Would you prefer the HDMI 1.3 in the Pro model at a significant step-up in retail (we would continue selling the RadianceXD as HDMI 1.1 in this case) or a new RadianceXD version and just change to HDMI 1.3 at a more modest retail increase?

Keeping the XD at 1.1 makes perfect sense. It keeps the product line clean and people know what comes with each model. Assuming you can cut a deal with existing beta users who bought the XD with the 1.3 upgrade in mind, of course. :-)

In my naive opinion, I think a killer app right now would be a little box with HDMI 1.3 in, that could decode the hi-def codecs, and output PCM. Stick that between your player and your Radiance.


Call me naive also ;), but that's what I was thinking also.

Keeping the XD at 1.1 makes perfect sense. It keeps the product line clean and people know what comes with each model. Assuming you can cut a deal with existing beta users who bought the XD with the 1.3 upgrade in mind, of course. :-)

You win the nonsensical post of the day. :confused:

How would an 1.3 XD be less 'clean' or more confusing to customers?

What does everyone think? Would you prefer the HDMI 1.3 in the Pro model at a significant step-up in retail (we would continue selling the RadianceXD as HDMI 1.1 in this case) or a new RadianceXD version and just change to HDMI 1.3 at a more modest retail increase?

Why not both? :p

I for one have been waiting for you to announce the Pro Model with HD-SDI inputs, and it would be icing on the cake if it came with HDMI 1.3 also. Can I get on a preorder/beta test for this version when it becomes available?

Jim, the VP50's latest beta firmware supports "In Advanced Mode, limit on scaler is now limited to 170MHz (previously 150MHz)". Will the Radiance support a 170MHz pixel clock? This would support 1080p72 with reduced blankings

You win the nonsensical post of the day. :confused:

How would an 1.3 XD be less 'clean' or more confusing to customers?
Thank you, I'm flattered.

As a reseller of the Lumagen line, I need to tell my clients what each version offers in a way they can understand. Upgrade options muddies the waters and makes things more complicated.

The demand for 1.3 is still small, and I've yet to get any requests for it. Once HD players improve in their decoding logic, demand may shrink even further. If you really need 1.3, you should expect to pay a premium. This is what DVDO is doing with their line-up, and it makes is easy to contrast the Lumagen offering with theirs.

If I understand correctly, the XD 1.3 "upgrade" is not an upgrade at all, but a completely new mainboard. I would prefer if time was spent of getting the Pro and lower-end versions out the door instead of working on customized mainboards for current beta XD users. I think it makes financial sense for Lumagen as well.

Thank you, I'm flattered.

As a reseller of the Lumagen line, I need to tell my clients what each version offers in a way they can understand. Upgrade options muddies the waters and makes things more complicated.

The demand for 1.3 is still small, and I've yet to get any requests for it. Once HD players improve in their decoding logic, demand may shrink even further. If you really need 1.3, you should expect to pay a premium. This is what DVDO is doing with their line-up, and it makes is easy to contrast the Lumagen offering with theirs.

If I understand correctly, the XD 1.3 "upgrade" is not an upgrade at all, but a completely new mainboard. I would prefer if time was spent of getting the Pro and lower-end versions out the door instead of working on customized mainboards for current beta XD users. I think it makes financial sense for Lumagen as well.


If you watch what is happening in the Pre/Pro/Receiver world demand for HDMI 1.3 is increasing. It is similar to 1080P displays. Not everyone needs one but that is the market, ignore it at your peril.

It would be a huge error on Lumagen's part to not offer upgrade existing XD even if it is a mainboard. That is what was promised and so it should be delivered. Personally, I think they should do both the respin of the XD and a downstream only unit with no audio switching.

Finish the current product while working on the XD3 (1.3) version, then at one point just start shipping new ones with 1.3. Certianly, do not introduce any new products that are not 1.3a.

- Rich

(I have a beta XD unit on the way - not sure on the status of it, but obviously that tints my view of things)...

I would be interested in the HDMI 1.3 upgrade to the XD as well as the Pro (depending on functionality), but I can see where it may make more sense from a business perspective to make it available through the Pro. Having both options would be great and then you can let the buyer decide which option makes more sense.


I'm trying to decide if 1.3 is a big deal. There are two benefits - audio and video (duh).

Audio is a pain right how due to DRM and the hardware to some extent. The high def formats are basically requiring upgrades (I have an overpriced ($3K-$4k) pre-high definition audio format receiver) and while there are inexpensive options out there, they don't put me in the same category of component as I have today. As a result, I am looking for a player that decodes the formats and outputs a 7.1 analog (such as the Samsung BD-UP5000). It's still far from ideal, but it is what it is. That removes any need for 1.3 from an audio perspective if I ignore the audio potential on other input devices.

From the video side, the HDMI 1.3 spec offers higher bandwidth which means higher potential pixelclocks (resolutions/refresh rates) and higher color depth support. That has a lot more value to me for the future, but I suspect the rest of the XD pipeline can't really push the 1.3 spec anyway. Is that an accurate statement?

I don't think we can expect an HDMI 1.3 upgrade for $200 (someone mentioned that number before). I suspect the volumes are low enough that the cost of the fabrication makes it a difficult situation for them. It may be hard to offer an upgrade and not lose money or anger customers that have unrealistic expectations. They can tie the design and development work to the Pro, so that helps the situation somewhat.

Despite a little thing like an HDMI 1.3 upgrade path, I'm very excited about receiving my beta unit.

There is something else to consider. Lumagen will need beta testers for both the implementation of v1.3 and for the additional features offered by the Pro which, without wishing to cause offense, will be meeting the needs of a shrinking market. Surely it's going to be much easier to beta test v1.3 on the XD and then do the Pro?

I wonder how many of the current all-digital beta testers will be persuaded to move to the Pro? On the other hand, how many of the Pro customers (particularly those using non-HDCP-compliant displays) are going to have HDMI 1.3 devices?

Finish the current product while working on the XD3 (1.3) version, then at one point just start shipping new ones with 1.3. Certianly, do not introduce any new products that are not 1.3a.
- Rich
You're right. This is what I would like to see:

1. Finish XD software, start shipping.
2. Build Pro with everything+HDMI 1.3+kitchen sink, start shipping.
3. Build low-end (XS), start shipping.

Now we have presence across the entire market, from low to high-end, and Lumagen is making money.

4. Build XDE (Enthusiast)/XD3 version that XD+HDMI 1.3. Offer upgrade program for existing XD owners at a reasonable price. Price this product somewhere between XD and Pro.

If and when 1.3 becomes mainstream, people will gravitate toward the XDE and Pro models, and a price-drop of the XDE could be used to gain market share. Now Lumagen has two 1.3 models, compared to DVDOs one.

5. Special-models, calibration only, digital only, behind the PrePro etc to capture niche markets.

I guess my point is that we need to start getting products out the door.

You're right. This is what I would like to see:

1. Finish XD software, start shipping.
2. Build Pro with everything+HDMI 1.3+kitchen sink, start shipping.
3. Build low-end (XS), start shipping.

Now we have presence across the entire market, from low to high-end, and Lumagen is making money.

4. Build XDE (Enthusiast)/XD3 version that XD+HDMI 1.3. Offer upgrade program for existing XD owners at a reasonable price. Price this product somewhere between XD and Pro.

If and when 1.3 becomes mainstream, people will gravitate toward the XDE and Pro models, and a price-drop of the XDE could be used to gain market share. Now Lumagen has two 1.3 models, compared to DVDOs one.

5. Special-models, calibration only, digital only, behind the PrePro etc to capture niche markets.

I guess my point is that we need to start getting products out the door.
I especially agree with #4. I think it would be a huge mistake to deadend beta testers like me who have no interest in the additional features in the Pro model. I only want HDMI 1.3 to retain the value of my current XD unit. If there is no path to 1.3 except for trading in for the Pro version, I will be hugely disappointed in Lumagen for doing that to their current beta testers.

Bob

Why not both? :p

I for one have been waiting for you to announce the Pro Model with HD-SDI inputs, and it would be icing on the cake if it came with HDMI 1.3 also. Can I get on a preorder/beta test for this version when it becomes available?

Yeah ! Really wish to know if or when it will be available to order ?? :o
I'll wait till the end of January ( for a PRO Hd-SDI and hdmi 1.3 ) then if it will be still beta or not finished and realized must choose for another .. maybe VPS 3800 Pro... hope to get a Radiance !!

I especially agree with #4. I think it would be a huge mistake to deadend beta testers like me who have no interest in the additional features in the Pro model. I only want HDMI 1.3 to retain the value of my current XD unit. If there is no path to 1.3 except for trading in for the Pro version, I will be hugely disappointed in Lumagen for doing that to their current beta testers.I agree with one exception: From an audiophile perspective, it is quite possible that decoding the bitsteam in a receiver/processor will yield better results than decoding in the player. Why? Bitstreams are packet based and much more robust from jitter than PCM. HDMI has the unlaudable property of preserving the jitter introduced by the player, so unless the player is doing an exemplary job of minimizing jitter after decoding and prior to HDMI then jitter is going affect the audio.

I use a Meridian G68 which does not have an HDMI solution yet, but there have been reports of bitstreams sounding pretty good in "lesser" receivers.

So, for me, HDMI 1.3 is important but only for audio.

Bitstreams are packet based and much more robust from jitter than PCM. HDMI has the unlaudable property of preserving the jitter introduced by the player, so unless the player is doing an exemplary job of minimizing jitter after decoding and prior to HDMI then jitter is going affect the audio.


Pretty sure everything over HDMI is packet based anyway because it is all HDCP encrypted. In the case of bitstream that bitstream packet is just encapsulated in the HDCP encrypted packets. The transport of PCM over HDMI is very different then PCM over SPDIF.

Shawn

Pretty sure everything over HDMI is packet based anyway because it is all HDCP encrypted. In the case of bitstream that bitstream packet is just encapsulated in the HDCP encrypted packets.My understanding is that HDMI preserves the jittered timing so if it's jittered prior to the encoder ... it will be jittered when the HDMI stream is decoded.

Thank you, I'm flattered. He he - I wasn't trying to be mean, but it really didn't make sense to me. Sorry if I offended, that wasn't the intent. :)

As a reseller of the Lumagen line, I need to tell my clients what each version offers in a way they can understand. Upgrade options muddies the waters and makes things more complicated. Ok - this makes more sense. For you though, not for Lumagen whose reputation would take a hit if they went back on a promised feature that encouraged many to choose their product in the first place.

The demand for 1.3 is still small, and I've yet to get any requests for it. Once HD players improve in their decoding logic, demand may shrink even further.That may be true if HT enthusiasts were a reasonable bunch, but go the audio section and you'll find it full of idiots who think they hear a night and day difference when their receiver does the decoding instead of the player. So I wouldn't count on that demand shrinking a bit.

If you really need 1.3, you should expect to pay a premium. This is what DVDO is doing with their line-up, and it makes is easy to contrast the Lumagen offering with theirs.Hmmm, not sure what to say to that. That's your opinion as an installer, but me as a hobbyist that's not really what I looked at when I compared my options. Customer service reputation and kept promises was the deciding factor. And why should you have to "pay a premium" for 1.3 anyway? Electronics prices don't exactly appreciate over time - the other way around.

If I understand correctly, the XD 1.3 "upgrade" is not an upgrade at all, but a completely new mainboard. I would prefer if time was spent of getting the Pro and lower-end versions out the door instead of working on customized mainboards for current beta XD users. I think it makes financial sense for Lumagen as well.I agree on that, but that's not really the issue here. The issue is that the XD was sold as an upgradable vp, and it may turn out not to be.

That may be true if HT enthusiasts were a reasonable bunch, but go the audio section and you'll find it full of idiots who think they hear a night and day difference when their receiver does the decoding instead of the player. So I wouldn't count on that demand shrinking a bit.Dave, please see my last two posts above yours. These "idiots" may actually be simply hearing the audio without the effects of the jitter introduced in the player. Yes, really. I don't claim to be an expert, but I've read the opinions and deductions of some who are and there are real issues with audio surrounding HDMI.

Pretty sure everything over HDMI is packet based anyway because it is all HDCP encrypted. In the case of bitstream that bitstream packet is just encapsulated in the HDCP encrypted packets. The transport of PCM over HDMI is very different then PCM over SPDIF.

Shawn

This is my experience as well. My Oppo 980H sounds noticeably better with the HDMI connection for CD audio than with the COAX connection to the Onkyo Pro 885 Preamp. I never expected this since both are digital but I have both connected and it is a simple A/B comparison that with out a doubt favors HDMI.

- Rich

The VisionHDP Pro can do 1080p72, but it does so at a reduced horizontal resolution. This is more applicable to CRT projectors.

The Radiance should be able to do 1080p72 at a reduced horizontal resolution when we get the pixel level timing functions completed. I am not sure how much this feature will get used though, except when using an external DAC to drive a CRT projector.

don't forget Moome's HDMI 1.3 card for Sony,Marquee & Nec's.

they will accept 1080P 72/75 Hz

so the path would be there.


Michael

Dave, please see my last two posts above yours. These "idiots" may actually be simply hearing the audio without the effects of the jitter introduced in the player. Yes, really. I don't claim to be an expert, but I've read the opinions and deductions of some who are and there are real issues with audio surrounding HDMI.

Trust your own ears then, not that of the so-called experts. The day PCM vs bitstream can be picked apart consistently by participants in a double blind test, I'll be happy to eat humble pie. Until then, I'll stick with common sense.

There are any number of plausible explanations for why a receiver might sound better being feed a bitstream vs the player decoding and sending PCM. HD-DVD players have a mixer in them to add in alternate audio streams. It would not surprise me if the mixer logic in the Toshiba players is less than ideal, it is the kind of thing that is easy to get wrong. I don't think people who question the manta of "PCM = bitstream" are idiots at all. There is theory (PCM should equal bitstream) then there is reality (equipment issues, interaction issues, implementation issues, etc..)

There are any number of plausible explanations for why a receiver might sound better being feed a bitstream vs the player decoding and sending PCM. HD-DVD players have a mixer in them to add in alternate audio streams.And when that happens, you don't have a choice between PCM and bitstream, as the mixer will not translate back the sound to bitstream for sending out. It will send PCM. So that point is moot, since you wouldn't even be able to compare the two even if you wanted to.

It would not surprise me if the mixer logic in the Toshiba players is less than ideal, it is the kind of thing that is easy to get wrong. I don't think people who question the manta of "PCM = bitstream" are idiots at all. There is theory (PCM should equal bitstream) then there is reality (equipment issues, interaction issues, implementation issues, etc..)If reality supported that idea, it would be easily demonstrated. It hasn't been.

Anyhoo - back on topic, sorry I provoked that digression. The topic is not whether or not the XD should evolve to 1.3. It should, the market pretty much dictates that, and I think Jim has come to that conclusion as well in an earlier post. The question is how this will be achieved.

I will not make any more posts about bitstream vs PCM in this thread because it is going off-topic. Just one last reply.

And when that happens, you don't have a choice between PCM and bitstream, as the mixer will not translate back the sound to bitstream for sending out. It will send PCM. So that point is moot, since you wouldn't even be able to compare the two even if you wanted to.

That is the point - if the mixer is "bad" then bitstream is the only fix. Sure you can compare them under that scenario - one is mangled and one is not.

If reality supported that idea, it would be easily demonstrated. It hasn't been.

Give it time, we shall see.

That is the point - if the mixer is "bad" then bitstream is the only fix. Sure you can compare them under that scenario - one is mangled and one is not.I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think that when the mixer is in use you CANNOT send out bitstream. The player can only mix PCM (since you can't do mixing on encoded data), and it won't re-encode it before sending it out. Hence when mixing, only PCM comes out, not bitstream.

Trust your own ears then, not that of the so-called experts. The day PCM vs bitstream can be picked apart consistently by participants in a double blind test, I'll be happy to eat humble pie. Until then, I'll stick with common sense.

My wife had no problem with COAX verses HDMI. This may be equipment related so YMMV. If you lived near Boston, I might ask you to come over and bring your pie :p

Concerning 1.3. In the near term, I will probably run the XD downstream when virtual inputs become available. That buys time. Even if I never changed my mind about that, I would still upgrade the unit to 1.3 to have the option and for resale. Now, that we have Ebay, I consider all purchases rentals ;)

- Rich

Can I just comment that Lumagen haven't let anyone down in the past when it has come to keeping their promises, quite the opposite in fact. I find it hard to believe that Jim will not provide an affordable solution for those with XD's who want to end up with 1.3 hdmi compatible units, be it board swaps or unit swaps(upgades). It seems to me that Jim's open discourse on his thoughts have unwittingly caused a panic amongst us all. Panic which I think will prove to be unfounded.

Can I just comment that Lumagen haven't let anyone down in the past when it has come to keeping their promises, quite the opposite in fact. I find it hard to believe that Jim will not provide an affordable solution for those with XD's who want to end up with 1.3 hdmi compatible units, be it board swaps or unit swaps(upgades). It seems to me that Jim's open discourse on his thoughts have unwittingly caused a panic amongst us all. Panic which I think will prove to be unfounded.

I suppose some have panicked when the phrase "Trade-in" was used.
Historically, Lumagen trade-ins were less cost effective than selling the unit and buying a new one. I am sure Jim did not mean that. Personally, I would swap the board.

In my book, Lumagen has the very best customer support and integrity.

- Rich

I agree with Gordon. I find Lumagen unsurpassed in customer service and ability to listen to its customers. I'm sure we will all be happy down the line.

Those long time customers should know that there are those of us that are new customers of Lumagen. We don't have a history with them....but one of the reasons in switching from their competitor (DVDO) was the level of customer care that many had spoken about. As a former DVDO customer, my spidey senses go into overdrive when there is talk about having to buy a whole new product vs the upgradable model I bought into to....when you combine that with talk about having a good used market out there or trade in (judging from past trade in values at Lumagen)....I start to get a little on edge.

understood rboster. I'm confident that "it'll all be ok in the end"

HDMI 1.3 is becoming more important. The new Panasonic BD30 BR player will pass all new codecs via bitstream but it will not decode all of these internally. It is receiving high praise as a BR player, although it was just released. This player necessitates having an AVR with 1.3.

I almost purchased the XD but wanted to see how the upgrade would be handled. I'm glad I waited and look forward to more detail about the 1.3 upgrade option.

In my naive opinion, I think a killer app right now would be a little box with HDMI 1.3 in, that could decode the hi-def codecs, and output PCM. Stick that between your player and your Radiance.

I don't know how long that little box would be marketable though, especially if new players start coming out that can do the decoding. But if the manufacturers start relying on HDMI 1.3 and Bitstream out to AVRs that can decode, then I'd buy one in a heartbeat. I'd sure hate to have to go buy another AVR that is trying to be a jack of all trades...

Can you explain this a little more. By outputting PCM does that input into the radiance via HDMI. Would the audio still be the High Def codec?
Then does it go out of the Radiance via HDMI again to receiver. I guess at some point I will have to update my receiver as it is only Coax in and 6 cable analog. I wish the radiance had the 6 cable audio out to receiver

Can you explain this a little more. By outputting PCM does that input into the radiance via HDMI. Would the audio still be the High Def codec?
Then does it go out of the Radiance via HDMI again to receiver. I guess at some point I will have to update my receiver as it is only Coax in and 6 cable analog. I wish the radiance had the 6 cable audio out to receiver

I hate to drag this thread much more off topic than we already have, but...

In short, you can either decode the HD codecs in the player, which will convert to multichannel PCM and send over HDMI, or have the player send bitstream over HDMI 1.3 and have some other device do the decoding. They both in theory should sound the same (I haven't researched the whole jitter thing). You might want to read the first post in the "Official" Why you don't need HDMI 1.3 thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994) for further insight.

What I was suggesting was for Lumagen to build a box that accepted 1.3 inputs (or perhaps just a single input) decode the hi-def codecs, and output the PCM and untouched video over a HDMI 1.1 or above connection into the Radiance. The Radiance performs its video magic, and then forwards the PCM on to your AVR over HDMI.

But again, if players would start doing the decoding like a bunch of us were led to believe they would, then none of this would be necessary.

Personally, I think this whole HDMI 1.3 thing is overblown at this time. Sonically and visually, you gain nothing..... yet it costs more. No high end surround processors have HDMI 1.3 nor any high end projectors that I am aware of. Moreover, the studios are not encoding in a manner to utilize its improved, theoretical video improvments...Certainly HDMI 1.3 may provide some value some day, but none today or in the near future thatI can see. THe HDMI 1.3 option should way little relative to a scaler purchase in my opinion.

I hate to drag this thread much more off topic than we already have, but...

In short, you can either decode the HD codecs in the player, which will convert to multichannel PCM and send over HDMI, or have the player send bitstream over HDMI 1.3 and have some other device do the decoding. They both in theory should sound the same (I haven't researched the whole jitter thing). You might want to read the first post in the "Official" Why you don't need HDMI 1.3 thread for further insight (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789994).

What I was suggesting was for Lumagen to build a box that accepted 1.3 inputs (or perhaps just a single input) decode the hi-def codecs, and output the PCM and untouched video over a HDMI 1.1 or above connection into the Radiance. The Radiance performs its video magic, and then forwards the PCM on to your AVR over HDMI.

But again, if players would start doing the decoding like a bunch of us were led to believe they would, then none of this would be necessary.

Thanks

Personally, I think this whole HDMI 1.3 thing is overblown at this time. Sonically and visually, you gain nothing..... yet it costs more. No high end surround processors have HDMI 1.3 nor any high end projectors that I am aware of. Moreover, the studios are not encoding in a manner to utilize its improved, theoretical video improvments...Certainly HDMI 1.3 may provide some value some day, but none today or in the near future thatI can see. THe HDMI 1.3 option should way little relative to a scaler purchase in my opinion.

The high-end is behind as advanced technology makes it to less expensive products. Receivers with with 1.3a start at $360. Preamps start at $1400 and "high end" preamp is coming from Denon for $7K. We can argue what is high enough end or not, but 1.3a is the standard. There will not be any new models introduced with HDMI that are not 1.3. Like I said before, ignoring the common place is very foolish marketing. Technically, HDMI 1.3a may have other advantages in handshaking and compatibility. It is not as if this stuff is just plug and play.

- Rich

...... Technically, HDMI 1.3a may have other advantages in handshaking and compatibility. It is not as if this stuff is just plug and play.

- Rich
And therein lies one of the almost overlooked aspects of this discussion.....As time goes by, less and less attention will be paid by manufacturers to make their equipment truly backward compatible with 1.1.

Those long time customers should know that there are those of us that are new customers of Lumagen. We don't have a history with them....but one of the reasons in switching from their competitor (DVDO) was the level of customer care that many had spoken about. As a former DVDO customer, my spidey senses go into overdrive when there is talk about having to buy a whole new product vs the upgradable model I bought into to....when you combine that with talk about having a good used market out there or trade in (judging from past trade in values at Lumagen)....I start to get a little on edge.

As a DVDO deserter myself, I feel the same way. One thing I can say for Lumagen though, is that at least when the fires at the forum starts burning somebody is there to calm down the flames. As far as DVDO is concerned, there is usually a deafening silence in the forums until the fires die down by themselves. IMHO, I just think a reasonable cost effective path (whichever that may be) to a RadianceXD w/1.3a should be offered to those of us beta testers.

And therein lies one of the almost overlooked aspects of this discussion.....As time goes by, less and less attention will be paid by manufacturers to make their equipment truly backward compatible with 1.1.
Backwards compatibility is required for 1.3 certification. See here for more info:

http://www.abccables.com/info-hdmi-compatible.html

It's not like composite video is not working any longer. Support for older versions and interfaces is important, and I doubt any manufacturer will choose to ignore that fact.

Backwards compatibility is required for 1.3 certification. See here for more info:

http://www.abccables.com/info-hdmi-compatible.html

It's not like composite video is not working any longer. Support for older versions and interfaces is important, and I doubt any manufacturer will choose to ignore that fact.True, in theory at least. It's just that we are still seeing plenty of handshake issues - after some 2+ years of HDMI/HDCP. The onus on getting it right or solving the problem(s) usually get pushed right back onto the 1.1 guys (particularly the "meat in the sandwich" repeater guys) who then have to scratch their head until it's bald to find a workaround to the issues.

P.S. Reading through the HDMI article and reading somewhat between the lines, I guess Lumagen is faced with the problem that if HDMI 1.3a is offered, it also has to satisfy the 1.3a video specs which perhaps the main board does not fully support at the moment. That's maybe why there is talk of having to change the MB. Perhaps Jim could shed some light on this assumption.

I haven't seen the inside of an XD as I'm still waiting on that Black faceplate to materialise before mine can be shipped off, but could one of you that have one, put up some pictures of the internals of it? The NDA has been withdrawn, so this shouldn't create any problems I hope. Just very curious, as an engineer always is about the hardware, what it looks like.

Yeah ! Really wish to know if or when it will be available to order ?? :o
I'll wait till the end of January ( for a PRO Hd-SDI and hdmi 1.3 ) then if it will be still beta or not finished and realized must choose for another .. maybe VPS 3800 Pro... hope to get a Radiance !!In the context of HDMI 1.3a, don't forget that the PM machine's HDMI 1.1 doesn't do multichannel PCM. At least the XD's 1.1 does.

I vote for the XD HDMI 1.1 to XD HDMI 1.3 "reasonable" trade-in option vs upgrading to the PRO. I have no need for the SDI features of the PRO, but since I plan on keeping the XD for several years, and my AVR is 1.3 capable, I want to be able to pass 1.3 bitstream through the XD audio ports so I can switch everything through the XD and just use the 2nd HDMI out port for audio to the AVR.

I vote for the XD HDMI 1.1 to XD HDMI 1.3 "reasonable" trade-in option vs upgrading to the PRO. I have no need for the SDI features of the PRO, but since I plan on keeping the XD for several years, and my AVR is 1.3 capable, I want to be able to pass 1.3 bitstream through the XD audio ports so I can switch everything through the XD and just use the 2nd HDMI out port for audio to the AVR.
I was in the middle of writing something very similar to your post when yours popped up and I agree. I no longer need SDI or RGBHV analog out and I also have a 1.3a AVR (Onkyo 605).

So, an end user board swap as an added option to the upgrade path to help keep freight and import costs down would be my vote. As I mentioned before, if loading the MB with just the components needed for 1.3a (i.e don't load the SDI and RGBHV analog components) is an option, it would also help in keeping the upgrade's cost down.

To keep downtime to a minimum, I suggest as others have, that a charge be made against your CC when the new "replacement" board is sent, and this be reversed when Lumagen receive the old "faulty" board. Sending a board across in this manner I have found avoids any duties and taxes that may otherwise be payable for us OS guys. Shipping a board rather than the whole unit is also a lot cheaper - last time I did this with DVDO it cost just US$20 each way AFAIR via the postal service. In fact, better than that, I only had to pay one way :).

Would you prefer the HDMI 1.3 in the Pro model at a significant step-up in retail (we would continue selling the RadianceXD as HDMI 1.1 in this case) or a new RadianceXD version and just change to HDMI 1.3 at a more modest retail increase?

Jim,

Put me down, emphatically, for RadianceXD upgrade to HDMI 1.3.

I am fully satisfied with the functionality of the XD (current and promised), and do not need ASI or other interfaces. My sole issue with the XD to date is the lack of 1.3 audio switching and my need to hack around the XD as a result. Please don't force me into a major model upgrade just to get HBR audio switching function integrated with video switching.

I won't say I bought the XD with a promise of HDMI 1.3 upgrade, but the early discussions from this board and Lumagen sure set an expectation that it would be forthcoming. There is no question that this expectation helped me decide on taking the risk of a beta unit. The implicit expectation of the upgrade was "at reasonable cost" not "by buying a more expensive product".

I personally see no market differentiation opportunity between HDMI 1.1 and 1.3, in the sense that I cannot see any benefit in selling HDMI 1.1 product at lower cost seperate from HDMI 1.3 product at higher cost. Look at the AVR & SSP market: HDMI 1.1 is being pushed aside for 1.3 at nearly no incremental cost. There is not a "HDMI 1.1 AVR" being sold differentially from the "HDMI 1.3 AVR" in most manufacturers product line. The 1.1 AVRs are simply removed from the product line and 1.3 replaces it. This shows it is being replaced, not differentiated.

Personally I liked the "charge CC for upgrade, send the new unit, reserve against the credit card the balance awaiting return and return old unit" proposal you made.

Thanks for listening,

Eric

PS: See the threads AVRs supporting HDMI MPCM & HBR (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=943558) and SSPs supporting HDMI MPCM & HBR (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940065) for current vendor status.

Jim,
Personally I liked the "charge CC for upgrade, send the new unit, reserve against the credit card the balance awaiting return and return old unit" proposal you made.

Eric

PS: See the threads AVRs supporting HDMI MPCM & HBR (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=943558) and SSPs supporting HDMI MPCM & HBR (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940065) for current vendor status.

Eric, the problem withyour suggestion is that you -- like me -- will still have to pay 14% tax on the unit when it enters Canada and then -- get this -- apply to CRA (i.e. IRS equivalent) for a tax refund...good luck!!! This is one headsache I will NOT touch.

Joelc,

My experience is that if it is marked "unit returned for repair" or "repaired unit" then it does not get hit.

Possibly the Canadian distributor will agree to add some value in this process. One can hope.

Correct...but a new/replacement unit is NOT a unit that is being returned under "warranty repair"...as an aside, I also doubt that Lumagen would agree to this...

Jim,

One further comment.

IMHO..
Regarding AVRs with HDMI 1.3, today virtually every AVR selling for $799 & higher includes HDMI 1.3, and within the next 6 months all of the AVRs selling from $499 and up will be HDMI 1.3 including the on-board HD audio codecs.

So going forward HDMI 1.3 will be the rule not the exception, also another plus is that the later AVRs, displays and source products with HDMI are significantly more compatible and robust compared to earlier generations.


This insightful comment from M Code bears on our discussion and is supported by the evidence of the threads I added in my previous message postscript.

As a thought experiment, imagine six months from now, and contemplate for a moment the scenario of HDMI 1.3 in the Pro product only while the AVR/SSP market has converted totally to HDMI 1.3.

Now imagine what happens when AVR/SSP comes together with separate Video Processor that doesn't support HDMI 1.3. Won't this cause massive confusion? Won't this cause customers to question the validity of a separate video processor? And won't the consumer wonder why they have to go to the top of the Lumagen product line to get something that the lowest level of AVR supports?

Won't this lack of 1.3 support make your sales effort harder, considering those AVRs have some level of (we all agree) inferior video processing? Will that last X% of improvement be worth the hacking around required to any but the most ardent earlier adopter?

Now counter that by imagining the scenario where all the Lumagen product line supports HDMI 1.3 with the SSPs and AVRs. Its a non-issue all around from a marketing perspective.

Just a thought for you to consider.

Eric Carroll

Correct...but a new/replacement unit is NOT a unit that is being returned under "warranty repair"...as an aside, I also doubt that Lumagen would agree to this...Which is why I keep mentioning the board replacement option, unless of course you really do want a Pro (with more connectors on back panel). All you should need is a Philips head screwdriver and a bit of patience;). 15-20 min at most is my guess going on past experience in doing this sort of thing on other VPs - a lot less if you've done it just once before as you then already know your way around.

Hmm....All this discussion is leading me to the inevitable conclusion that the XD production units should be HDMI 1.3a from day 1. IMHO, customers will put off buying an XD until it has 1.3. Are we going around in circles here? Have we said it all before? Yep, I think so. I think we're all trying to see it another way, but really, there's no escaping the finality of market push - the old marketing adage of "perception is reality" still holds today, sound technical arguments notwithstanding. I'd love to be proven wrong though :D.

Considering that the 1.3 chips are more expensive than the current 1.2 will sure lead to a Radiance that will cost more. I personally have to deal professionally with the 1.3 hype that has been initiated by Silicon Image and his associates for the pure sake of making more money. Sadly enough many people are following their guidelines without activating the brain. The next generation 1.3 distribution amplifiers that I will have to launch will be more expensive and I am eager to see if my customers pay the extra for no benefit in the real world. check out my site to see what SPATZ is offering.
http://www.spatz-tech.com
Same for the RADIANCE I am pretty sure that there is a good market for the old 1.2 versions especially at B-stock pricing that might be 40% to 50% less than the 1.3 version at that time.
I already wrote Jim an email with my thoughts on this (I am the distributor for the german speaking countries) and according to his posts he is on the same path trading in the complete unit. However he would still be able to offer the board swap which I think will be not as attractive.
What is he going to do with the old board ? Ask yourself that question.
I personally will never upgrade to 1.3 unless there is content that is supporting the higher bit depth (which I doubt will ever happen ) and for the audio I have all the time before JBL Synthesis or Lexicon is launching a new processor that will replace my current SDP-5. I can tell you that the new SDEC 3000 is making a big difference and I have never had a better sound on my ATLAS system before. Probably much bigger difference than from Dolby Digital to Dolby HD.
Still I think it would be a good idea to announce a future 1.3 upgrade programm and its terms to give potential customers an outlook what will happen if they jump on the purchase of the current unit now.

...snip...Same for the RADIANCE I am pretty sure that there is a good market for the old 1.2 versions especially at B-stock pricing that might be 40% to 50% less than the 1.3 version at that time.
I already wrote Jim an email with my thoughts on this (I am the distributor for the german speaking countries) and according to his posts he is on the same path trading in the complete unit. However he would still be able to offer the board swap which I think will be not as attractive.
What is he going to do with the old board ? Ask yourself that question.
The old (current) version is HDMI 1.1 - I know, barely a difference in spec between 1.1 and 1.2, but you know what sales hype will do...

With regard to the old boards, if B stock of the XD with HDMI 1.1 is contemplated, just put a new case around it :).

Jim, the VP50's latest beta firmware supports "In Advanced Mode, limit on scaler is now limited to 170MHz (previously 150MHz)". Will the Radiance support a 170MHz pixel clock? This would support 1080p72 with reduced blankings

It would be a major redesign of the FPGA, so no plans for this at this time.

Jim, get some sleep, you are up way too late :) I am getting up at 04:12 AM on the East coast

Jim, get some sleep, you are up way too late :) I am getting up at 04:12 AM on the East coast

Good advice. :)

One comment on bitstream verses PCM jitter before I get some sleep:

Both are source-synchronous clocks. So both have clock jitter, and both have the extra jitter introduced by the audio being encoded into the video stream of HDMI. How would one expect this to be any different??? I really can't see the amount of jitter induced error in the output being different. It really comes down to the quality of the de-jitter circuit in the amp.

Lossless compression means it can't make a difference where the data is decoded. The player or amp will produce the same data at the decoder output. Of course other factors could come into play. One device might choose to do stupid things to the audio after the decoder. However, that just means we need to show care in choosing our equipment. No change there. The new uncompressed formats can and should sound the same whether decoded in the amp or the player if the appropriate choices are made in the source player purchasing decision.

Off to sleep now...

It would be a major redesign of the FPGA, so no plans for this at this time.
What is the HDMI output spec'd at? 150Mhz? 165Mhz?

I like the idea of having an upgrade if I ever 'need' it.... I would guess 1-2 years, if ever...But I certainly wouldn't ask Lumagen to put this on the front burner... So much more to do. Lumagen says they will do it, so why all the talk?

I like the idea of having an upgrade if I ever 'need' it.... I would guess 1-2 years, if ever...But I certainly wouldn't ask Lumagen to put this on the front burner... So much more to do. Lumagen says they will do it, so why all the talk?

I agree. I have replaced everything in my AV system over the last 12 months other than the front speakers. Before buying a new AVR and both BD and HD-DVD players, I read numerous posts here regarding HDMI 1.1 vs. 1.3 and concluded that for this generation of source material 1.3 provided little if any gain. I expect my current setup to be near "leading edge" for the next 4-5 years. Having said that, however, having an upgrade path for my Radiance was a definite consideration in deciding to purchase a beta unit. I view it as an insurance policy just in case some major benefit of 1.3 should materialize.

The major reason for buying a beta unit was the wonderful customer service and unit performance I had with my 2 previous Lumagen VPs along with Jim and company's keeping of all their promises. Based upon the Radiance's performance to date I have not been disappointed.

I am pretty sure that there is a good market for the old 1.2 versions especially at B-stock pricing that might be 40% to 50% less than the 1.3 version at that time.
I already wrote Jim an email with my thoughts on this (I am the distributor for the german speaking countries) and according to his posts he is on the same path trading in the complete unit. However he would still be able to offer the board swap which I think will be not as attractive.

To be clear, I am supportive of an XD box swap for HDMI 1.3 if done on the basis previously described (send out new unit in advance). I am not supportive of a trade-up to a more expensive PRO just to get HDMI 1.3.

There may be an after-market for HDMI 1.1 video processor at seriously reduced pricing. In support of this, there is a good used market for SSPs that don't have HBR codecs. But the data is crystal clear on where all the AVR market and SSP market is going in the last six months and next six months in terms of new product and product tiering.

The major reason for buying a beta unit was the wonderful customer service and unit performance I had with my 2 previous Lumagen VPs along with Jim and company's keeping of all their promises. Based upon the Radiance's performance to date I have not been disappointed.

I agree. I have been exceptionally impressed by the way the beta effort has been managed. A clear feature roadmap, regular releases, and good communication on what is coming, and when. It has set a benchmark in my mind for how to do this well.

I look forward to a similar handling of the HDMI 1.3 issue. I think it is amazing that Jim asks this forum and listens to the input. It is a great lesson on how to use these kinds of tools well.

I appreciate all the feedback on the upgrade path to HDMI 1.3.

I would like to say again the the RadianceXD field upgrade was originally intended only for the video deinterlacer daughter card. The main board was specifically not part of any plans for field upgrade. The reasons are exactly what we have been discussing here. There is just too much cost, and value, in the main board to just throw it away. After comments on this forum I did decide to do the field upgrade on the main board, but have always said it would not be cheap.

I believe a special deal trade-in with resale of the "pre-owned" unit will be in the benefit for both the customer and Lumagen. In some remote locations (i.e. those without a country specific distributor) we could do a board swap.

Again, I am planning that this will be a special trade-in program, and NOT our normal trade-in value where we are currently giving 1/3 of the old unit toward the Radiance upgrade. However, we must make money on the upgrade path. I am willing to make less than normal margins on this particular upgrade.

I am not ready to decide exactly how the upgrade plan will work. It will be good. It will cause me financial pain. New technology costs money. Video Processors are a niche product for those who truely care about video quality. So, costs cannot be compared with your run-of-the-mill receiver.

If you need to wait on your RadianceXD purchase because I'm not ready to talk about details on the HDMI 1.3 upgrade, so be it. However, I think this is kind of like waiting for the next generation computer before you buy a PC: You may always be waiting, because just about the time you are ready to buy, the vendors will announce the next improvement that you can't buy yet.

Sorry, some of my frustration with all this is showing. I'll be quiet now.

Sorry, some of my frustration with all this is showing. I'll be quiet now.I empathize. Presumably, the primary reason people buy an expensive video processor is that they want to improve the quality of their image. Isn't that what it's all about? Since 1.3 HDMI has exactly ZERO effect on this I am a little puzzled why people have decided to obsess on this relatively trivial issue.

This is a perfect example of why manufacturers often find themselves in the position of having to offer what amounts to deceptive advertising (e.g., Deep Color) because they feel an understandable need to respond to consumers' often irrational preferences.

My preference would be that you spend as little time on this as you can and focus your efforts where it will have the biggest payoff: squashing important bugs and finishing the VXP enhancements and color management implementation. But that's just me.

Jim:

I can not and will not speak for others but on the basis of the relationship that I have had with Lumagen over the past 4+ years I ahve no doubt that I will be treated in a fair manner which, at the end of theday, is all I or anyone else can either ask for or expect...

I've had my XD since early October. A few weeks in the picture went awry, unwatchable. I got prompt email response and sent them pics of the problem. Long story short Lumagen had the unit picked up fixed and returned within a week. The XD is my first Lumagen product and so far all the reason why I bought Lumagen (top notch engineering and customer service) are proving true. I have no doubt Jim and Co. will make the 1.3 upgrade/swap as painless and fair as possible.

I agree with you but it's not that simple for everyone. The XD, like it or not, is also a sound switcher. As it is, it cannot pass the advanced lossless codecs. It is not a guarantee that players, even high-end ones, will ever be able to decode those, and the trend seems to go toward passing the bitstream and leaving that job to a receiver or preamp.

Hopefully HD-DVD and BRD player manufacturers will issue firmware updates to have their players decode those formats internally, but that hasn't happened so far.

I empathize. Presumably, the primary reason people buy an expensive video processor is that they want to improve the quality of their image. Isn't that what it's all about? Since 1.3 HDMI has exactly ZERO effect on this I am a little puzzled why people have decided to obsess on this relatively trivial issue.

This is a perfect example of why manufacturers often find themselves in the position of having to offer what amounts to deceptive advertising (e.g., Deep Color) because they feel an understandable need to respond to consumers' often irrational preferences.

My preference would be that you spend as little time on this as you can and focus your efforts where it will have the biggest payoff: squashing important bugs and finishing the VXP enhancements and color management implementation. But that's just me.

I think you need to introduce the XDPro with HDMI 1.3 and upgrade/trade-in the regular XD to HDMI 1.3.

I would have bought the Pro instead of the XD, but am too impatient and needed a VP now. If offerred, I would upgrade/trade-in my regular XD with HDMI 1.1 for a Pro with HDMI 1.3.

I share this opinion:
XDPro with SD/HDSDI and BNC RGBHV analog output HDMI 1.3
XD "classic" with HDMI 1.3 update (if possible done by ourselves).

Regards, LennyF

I share this opinion:
XDPro with SD/HDSDI and BNC RGBHV analog output HDMI 1.3
XD "classic" with HDMI 1.3 update (if possible done by ourselves).

Regards, LennyF

Quote you, man ! ;)
I repeat this several times ! ;)

The reason I switched from DVDO (VP50), was the great track record of Lumagen customer service AND the fact that the RadianceXD could be easily upgraded (new processor in the future) and daughterboard with HDMI 1.3.

I have experienced the great customer service from Lumagen and I'm glad I switched.

But I must say, that the talk of great resale value on the RadianceXD, meaning that I should sell that unit and buy a new one with HDMI 1.3 is making me nervous.

I am the very first RadianceXD owner in my country and there is a very small VP market here. It would be almost impossible for me to sell the RadianceXD here (I can't even sell my VP50).

I hope Lumagen delivers a cheap and easy way for us early RadianceXD supporters to upgrade to HDMI 1.3 (no matter what country you're in).

The reason I switched from DVDO (VP50), was the great track record of Lumagen customer service AND the fact that the RadianceXD could be easily upgraded (new processor in the future) and daughterboard with HDMI 1.3.To be fair to Lumagen, it was only the Gennum processor that was described as being on a replaceable daughter-board. An upgrade to HDMI 1.3 was promised, but the form of this upgrade was not specified. I amongst others had assumed that this would be a replacement of components in the original box. I am open to the various possibilities as long as I do not end up losing XD functionality (e.g. number of inputs) or gaining functionality I don't need at extra cost.

I do not require HDMI v1.3 for video, but I will require it if I want to keep my existing HD DVD (XA1) and Blu-Ray (PS3) players and reap the benefits of DTS HD Master Audio. However, given that the PS3 is the most future-proof Blu-Ray player on the market it would not surprise me if it gets a DTS HD MA decoding upgrade in the future. This is unlikely for the XA1 though.

....I am the very first RadianceXD owner in my country and there is a very small VP market here. It would be almost impossible for me to sell the RadianceXD here (I can't even sell my VP50).

I hope Lumagen delivers a cheap and easy way for us early RadianceXD supporters to upgrade to HDMI 1.3 (no matter what country you're in).
I suspect that I might have the same honour in my country shortly:) (in black too!), but my mind was put at rest somewhat by Jim's promise that a Main Board exchange would be offered for those who wanted it. I would assume that it will cost a good deal less than a trade-in would, particularly as the Gennum Processor daughter board would simply be swapped over onto the new Main Board.

Jim also promised that it would cause him a good deal of financial pain ;) in making good on his promise to keep costs for the upgrade/changeover to 1.3 as low as possible.

any word on when the next set of machines will ship?

Waiting anxiously to join in the fun.
LT

To be fair to Lumagen, it was only the Gennum processor that was described as being on a replaceable daughter-board. An upgrade to HDMI 1.3 was promised, but the form of this upgrade was not specified.

Yes. This is true but I think the impression was created from the first post The RadianceXG is a modular platform. It allows for upgraded capabilities without the need to buy an entirely new video processor. For example, the current VXP processor from Gennum utilizes 10-bit pixel-depth processing, but when a 16-bit pixel-depth video processor becomes available, it can be installed by simply replacing a small daughter card. And the RadianceXG is designed to be able to take maximum advantage of the 16-bit processor’s pixel depth. The HDMI revision 1.1 inputs and outputs can also be upgraded to new HDMI revision levels as they become available, while keeping the same video processor in place.


It does not sound like the last statement above was accurate.

- Rich

It does not sound like the last statement above was accurate.

- Rich

Yeah. I'm ready to cut Lumagen some slack because they would never in a million years intentionally mislead customers, but they should have chosen their words a bit more carefully there. :p

And to be fair, that was the very early announcement for the XG. The wording for the XD is more recent and still on Lumagen's web site (new section).

As I've said before...I am confident that those beta owners wanting to go to 1.3 spec will be looked after. :)

Gordon

As I've said before...I am confident that those beta owners wanting to go to 1.3 spec will be looked after. :)

GordonWhy just beta owners? What about those who buy when the product is actually released?

Why just beta owners? What about those who buy when the product is actually released?

Indeed. :)

I was planing on waiting for the Production release but I think I will just wait for the 1.3 version. Still awaiting the release of a hdmi amp that I like so no rush.

One less re-cabling effort on a box swap. ;)

As I've said before...I am confident that those beta owners wanting to go to 1.3 spec will be looked after. :)I'm confident too Gordon. It will be very interesting to see what upgrade options will be made available. There is no immediate rush for me: I'm still waiting on Meridian's HDMI solution...

Why just beta owners? What about those who buy when the product is actually released?
No pain, no gain? :) On a serious note, it is quite common practice for technology companies to treat beta testers "more nicely" than they treat ordinary customers. If you wait until the product is "locked", then your expectations should be set by what the product is at that time, not based upon what others who were willing to take a chance on future benefits.

In other words, beta customers bought based upon what the product will be, and ordinary customers buy based upon what the product is.

Bill

I empathize. Presumably, the primary reason people buy an expensive video processor is that they want to improve the quality of their image. Isn't that what it's all about? Since 1.3 HDMI has exactly ZERO effect on this I am a little puzzled why people have decided to obsess on this relatively trivial issue.

This is a perfect example of why manufacturers often find themselves in the position of having to offer what amounts to deceptive advertising (e.g., Deep Color) because they feel an understandable need to respond to consumers' often irrational preferences.

My preference would be that you spend as little time on this as you can and focus your efforts where it will have the biggest payoff: squashing important bugs and finishing the VXP enhancements and color management implementation. But that's just me.

+1

Total agreement. Please focus on the CMS and things that matter. HDMI 1.3 offers nothing for most people in the next year.

+1

Total agreement. Please focus on the CMS and things that matter. HDMI 1.3 offers nothing for most people in the next year.
I never miss an opportunity to dig up my favorite Simpsons quote of all time:
"Marge, I agree with you... in theory. In theory, communism works. In theory."

HDMI 1.3 does offer something for someone; a marketing opportunity for Lumagen. Like it or not, people do want it. For all the wrong reasons. But they do.

I put in "beta" in my post for the reasons Bear has mentioned. There are no production unit owners yet. Those who do buy a unit when it's production will have, I would hope, knowledge of what the cost to purchase a current unit is, how much an update of such a unit would be and hopefully also how much a 1,3 unit would be when it ships. This is speculation on my part though......

Gordon

+1

Total agreement. Please focus on the CMS and things that matter. HDMI 1.3 offers nothing for most people in the next year.

I never miss an opportunity to dig up my favorite Simpsons quote of all time:
"Marge, I agree with you... in theory. In theory, communism works. In theory."

HDMI 1.3 does offer something for someone; a marketing opportunity for Lumagen. Like it or not, people do want it. For all the wrong reasons. But they do.


I think those of us who want the 1.3, isn't for non-existent deep color, but want to bitstream the advanced audio codecs from the newer hd disc players to the newer recievers that decode them. The Radiance is also used as a switcher with 6 hdmi inputs ,and with hdmi, where video goes so also audio. Most recievers only have 2 or 3, maybe 4 hdmi inputs and not all are capable of passing the native video unscathed if using the reciever before the Radiance.

No doubt the video processing is paramont, and at least near future upgradability to 1.3 is important also.

HDMI 1.3 does offer something for someone; a marketing opportunity for Lumagen. Like it or not, people do want it. For all the wrong reasons. But they do.


I strongly disagree. My current BR (Panasonic BD30) player only outputs the new codecs via bitstream which necessitates HDMI 1.3.

I strongly disagree. My current BR (Panasonic BD30) player only outputs the new codecs via bitstream which necessitates HDMI 1.3.

But the hope is that Panasonic and others will release firmware updates that allows decoding inside the player so as to output PCM.

I never miss an opportunity to dig up my favorite Simpsons quote of all time:
"Marge, I agree with you... in theory. In theory, communism works. In theory."

HDMI 1.3 does offer something for someone; a marketing opportunity for Lumagen. Like it or not, people do want it. For all the wrong reasons. But they do.

Yeah but so does really great scaling and we don't exactly hear the voices from Lumagen saying 1.3 is worth it, do we?

Dave, will you explain outputting PCM
Is it over HDMI
Is it over the 6 analog cables
What is it and what do I need to get it
Thanks

Yeah but so does really great scaling and we don't exactly hear the voices from Lumagen saying 1.3 is worth it, do we?

I'm sorry... what? :confused:

But the hope is that Panasonic and others will release firmware updates that allows decoding inside the player so as to output PCM.Unfortunately, most of these players lack the hardware resources to be able to decode the new formats internally. For them the only way listen to the new formats is to use bitstream.

Why can't you solve it like this? If you have a AVR with dual HDMI inputs, I think this works. No 1.3 required, just some remote macros.

If you have a BD player that doesn't decode to PCM and a broken AVR that does bad things to the HDMI pass-through picture, you need to change to better components.

http://www.ny-calibration.com/Radiance.gif

As I've said before...I am confident that those beta owners wanting to go to 1.3 spec will be looked after. :)

Gordon
Here's another thought on this vexed topic :). If there is to be a reasonable price difference between the XD with HDMI 1.1 and the later version with HDMI 1.3a, what about making the upgrade for the early adopters the price difference between the two? That way there's really no reason anyone should be holding back right now.

Now I imagine this could only apply to a main board swap. I would also imagine, that if the footprint and pin-out of the HDMI 1.3a chips is the same as the 1.1 chips, Lumagen could rework the old boards to 1.3a. There might be a caveat in that the old board might only be upgradable wrt HDMI 1.3a audio. But isn't that what everybody is really concerend with, i.e not the video side of 1.3a?

any word on when the next set of machines will ship?

Waiting anxiously to join in the fun.
LTYou can join in the fun right now ;). And, you can now have it with a Black Faceplate too for very little extra. RichB seems to have the inside knowledge - send him a PM.

I was told "two weeks" (sometime last week) by AVS until "boards" were in at Lumagen. I'm about 3 weeks into waiting from my original order and my remote finger is well past itchy

Mark

Why can't you solve it like this? If you have a AVR with dual HDMI inputs, I think this works. No 1.3 required, just some remote macros.
This has been proposed before more than once. It pre-supposes that you only have 1 HDMI 1.3a source (which is reasonable at this stage I admit), that your AVR can handle 1080p pass-through, that you don't have an A/V lip sync problem (or alternatively that your AVR can do all of that and adds no further gremelins - see RichB's posts on that one) and so on. But, a sensible workaround for your suggested equipment list.

If you have a BD player that doesn't decode to PCM and a broken AVR that does bad things to the HDMI pass-through picture, you need to change to better components.

Hmm.... - you serious ;)

The XD is an A/V Video Processor/Router. It is supposed to handle/route ALL the audio components of your video sources and provide appropriate lip sync where necessary. I'd like to use it to its maximum including full audio processing/switching. Yes, I agree macros can solve a lot of problems like this one, but the chances of missing out one of the commands using an infra red remote are very real and happen. And yes, an RF remote like a Harmony 890 will help to pretty well avoid that issue.

This has been proposed before more than once. It pre-supposes that you only have 2 HDMI sources
How is that? My example drawing uses 3 sources (one 1.3 and two 1.1), and there is still room for 3 more (1.1) routing through the Radiance.

I don't think the Radiance is intended to be band-aid to all that ails poor video and audio equipment. Why not lobby other manufacturers to do things correctly in the first place?

How is that? My example drawing uses 3 sources (one 1.3 and two 1.1), and there is still room for 3 more (1.1) routing through the Radiance.

I don't think the Radiance is intended to be band-aid to all that ails poor video and audio equipment. Why not lobby other manufacturers to do things correctly in the first place?Yes, sorry, I realised that later and edited my post - sometimes the fingers get ahead of the brain :). Just looking at your diagram again - I wonder if there are any HDCP handshake and video delay issues with the path of the video signal from the BD player to the TV. You'd probably need a good bit of audio delay in the AVR.

Yes, sorry, I realised that later and edited my post - sometimes the fingers get ahead of the brain :).
No problem. I think A/V sync can be handled in either the AVR (per input) or the Radiance, so that shouldn't be a show-stopper. This assumes that the audio delay is independent of video packet forwarding, of course. I know it's not perfect, but being on the cutting edge sometimes hurts. What happened to standards? :-)

How is that? My example drawing uses 3 sources (one 1.3 and two 1.1), and there is still room for 3 more (1.1) routing through the Radiance.

I don't think the Radiance is intended to be band-aid to all that ails poor video and audio equipment. Why not lobby other manufacturers to do things correctly in the first place?

There are lip-sync issues with the OnkyoPro 885, Integra 9.8, et al, but I do not see the relevance to the Lumagen XD. Basically, as 1.3 audio sources become more prevalent, there is a need to put the Pre/Pro before the Lumagen. As it can also switch, this is a reasonable solution. I think the Virtual Inputs solves that problem for many so I applaud that solution.

One thing is for sure, both my preamp and XD are both leading edge technologies and, as such, I have no problem with the way both are proceeding.

Concerning Black faceplates: It is my understanding that they are still very limited. I just happened to get one more :p

- Rich

Dave, will you explain outputting PCM
Is it over HDMI
Is it over the 6 analog cables
What is it and what do I need to get it
Thanks


First, see this article (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1064) if you're not familiar with the different HD sound formats.

If your player is able to decode the sound format on the disc, then you can output PCM, which can be played by most hdmi receivers (some are just switchers and do not process the sound at all - careful what you buy). If it can't decode the sound, it might be able to send it as bitstream, leaving the receiver to do the decoding job. To send the most 'advanced' formats (Dolby True HD and DTS HD-MA), HDMI 1.3 is required, both on the player and on the receiver. PCM, on the other hand, can be sent over hdmi 1.1 (or even over analog outputs if you want), regardless of the original format of the sound. So theoretically, an hdmi 1.1 player able to decode the advanced formats would let you enjoy that sound without requiring a 1.3 receiver. There's no such player currently on the market.

Hope this helps.

PS: contrary to what you'll hear, it doesn't really matter where the decoding takes place (player vs receiver), all the codecs being deterministic.

First, see this article (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1064) if you're not familiar with the different HD sound formats.

Thanks Dave, that's a great read.

Being a video person myself, I didn't fully realize the mess the latest codecs got us into. A "pass the buck" mentality where every one expect some one else to do the heavy lifting seems to prevail.

I own the LG BH100, so I have internal decoding over analog for everything except Dolby TrueHD. I use LPCM if available.

I understand HDMI 1.3 is needed to decode TrueHD and DTS MA in the receiver, if your players firmware is unable to do so. We live in a immature market where everyone wants to save a buck by referring to a standard that declares features "optional". I remember CD and DVD players that refused to read CD-R and DVD+R discs. I'm sure they are not selling so good now.

Internal decoding to LPCM by any HD player is the trend, and it will allow for future audio formats to be supported with a simple firmware upgrade. Putting this burden on the AVR is unrealistic in the long term, since AVRs are not usually firmware flashable. Manufacturers of HD players already need to release firmware updates to deal with BD+, Java or other feature/encryption schemes. I expect them to deal with audio decoding the same way.

Roles and responsibilities:

TV: Display Picture
AVR: Render Sound
Player: Decode Content

This is the way if works with video. I don't see televisions implementing MPEG4 or VC1 decoding, they accept YCbCr and RGB like they always have (analog or digital).

The tradition of having an AVR decode DD and DTS was a mistake in the first place. All is does is force consumers to upgrade their AVR when a new codec gets released. I guess there may be a financial incentive here, but as a consumer I disapprove.

I apologize for the polemic, but I get mad when some "standards" organization bullies vendors into adopting a scheme that benefits no one.

I also apologize for the off-topic post.

Thanks Dave, that's a great read.

Being a video person myself, I didn't fully realize the mess the latest codecs got us into. A "pass the buck" mentality where every one expect some one else to do the heavy lifting seems to prevail.

I own the LG BH100, so I have internal decoding over analog for everything except Dolby TrueHD. I use LPCM if available.

I understand HDMI 1.3 is needed to decode TrueHD and DTS MA in the receiver, if your players firmware is unable to do so. We live in a immature market where everyone wants to save a buck by referring to a standard that declares features "optional". I remember CD and DVD players that refused to read CD-R and DVD+R discs. I'm sure they are not selling so good now.

Internal decoding to LPCM by any HD player is the trend, and it will allow for future audio formats to be supported with a simple firmware upgrade. Putting this burden on the AVR is unrealistic in the long term, since AVRs are not usually firmware flashable. Manufacturers of HD players already need to release firmware updates to deal with BD+, Java or other feature/encryption schemes. I expect them to deal with audio decoding the same way.

Roles and responsibilities:

TV: Display Picture
AVR: Render Sound
Player: Decode Content

This is the way if works with video. I don't see televisions implementing MPEG4 or VC1 decoding, they accept YCbCr and RGB like they always have (analog or digital).

The tradition of having an AVR decode DD and DTS was a mistake in the first place. All is does is force consumers to upgrade their AVR when a new codec gets released. I guess there may be a financial incentive here, but as a consumer I disapprove.

I apologize for the polemic, but I get mad when some "standards" organization bullies vendors into adopting a scheme that benefits no one.

I also apologize for the off-topic post.

I agree, this is why i always look for a player that has analog outs. The processor/reciver is usually the most expensive part of the system and changing it evry time a new codec comes out pisses me off. I lov the sound of my adcom 830 and use the analog ins for my multi channel listening. My LG bh100 sounds better than the decoders of the preamp. lets get player manufactures to keep putting the decoders in the machines and also include the analog outs.

athanasios

The tradition of having an AVR decode DD and DTS was a mistake in the first place.
In hindsight you're probably right, but wasn't that a technical constraint? S/PDIF has never been able to pass more than 2 channels of PCM. So at least the DD and DTS decoding in the receiver made sense. I agree, though, it really doesn't anymore.

In hindsight you're probably right, but wasn't that a technical constraint? S/PDIF has never been able to pass more than 2 channels of PCM. So at least the DD and DTS decoding in the receiver made sense. I agree, though, it really doesn't anymore.
You're right about S/PDIF being limited to 2 channels, but analog 6 channel out works. I use it with my Pioneer DV-59 and it sounds great. Looks like digital out have always been a step behind what the content creators put on the disc.

So at least the DD and DTS decoding in the receiver made sense. I agree, though, it really doesn't anymore.

Do cable/sat STB's decode DD and DTS? If not, it's another reason for having your receiver do the decoding.

Do cable/sat STB's decode DD and DTS? If not, it's another reason for having your receiver do the decoding.
No, they don't. It's a philosophical argument. I love my receiver and it sounds awesome with DD, DTS, PCM and analog in. I would hate to have to buy another AVR just to to be able to decode the latest codec. The BD and HD-DVD specs both failed in demanding mandatory decoding of disc content in the player, probably to keep costs down and gain marketshare. Now we are in a fine mess; the consumer is paying the price by having to spend money for new audio equipment. Vote with your wallet.

Back on topic.

Anyone know if the Radiance is passing multi channel PCM over HDMI?

Back on topic.

Anyone know if the Radiance is passing multi channel PCM over HDMI?YES!

Jim

It's been a while since there was a software update.

When can we expect the noise reduction related update?

I'm really looking forward to that :)

PS. When can we expect Audio Delay to be implemented in the XD?

Thanks
Martin

No, they don't. It's a philosophical argument. I love my receiver and it sounds awesome with DD, DTS, PCM and analog in. I would hate to have to buy another AVR just to to be able to decode the latest codec. The BD and HD-DVD specs both failed in demanding mandatory decoding of disc content in the player, probably to keep costs down and gain marketshare. Now we are in a fine mess; the consumer is paying the price by having to spend money for new audio equipment. Vote with your wallet.

there are some players that will decode those new codecs or at least have firmware update for it. Some old toshiba,sony, the LG BH100, and the new samsung BDp5000 all have multichanel analog outs.

Jim any news on possible blend feature for the Radiance or the future pro model? I'm still holding out on getting a TVone unit , waiting for a difinitive yes or now form Lumagen. Even if it's able to be added to all lumagens by a firmware update id buy another HDQ to get blending. It be really cool to have it.

Athanasios

there are some players that will decode those new codecs or at least have firmware update for it. Some old toshiba,sony, the LG BH100, and the new samsung BDp5000 all have multichanel analog outs.
No bluray or hd dvd player exists that will decode DTS HD-MA - it doesn't look like the bdp5000 is an exception, according to the specs on crutchfield. Players can only send through analog what they can decode.

Jim

It's been a while since there was a software update.

When can we expect the noise reduction related update?

I'm really looking forward to that :)

PS. When can we expect Audio Delay to be implemented in the XD?

Thanks
Martin

We have been in bug fix mode. We will have a color equation fix and color-gamut software update in the next week. This should be followed about a week later with the Genum enhancement and noise-reductions controls.

Audio delay is not scheduled until after production release. In fact the delay is so short in the Radiance some are now asking for a video delay to be added to the Radiance. We are considering this as well.

JRP - What sort of noise reduction controls? Mosquito and/or block? Other?

Radiance EDID and passing LPCM AUDIO Question:

The other night I spent quite some time with Jim from Lumagen on the phone to figure out why I could not pass LPCM over HDMI through my Halcro Surround proeccessor. (Great service...very patient..)

I was using 540P and through a lot of toil, Jim determined this to be the cause (that the Halcro will not accept 540p - or any other non-standard resolution with Multi channel PCM).

So, at the end we got things with audio and video using a blanked video out to my Halcro from Video 2 and 720P to my PJ. A blank screen sends a blank 1080i signal (which the Halcro likes)

All seemed good until I started the film...then ,though multichannel LPCM was enabled in the processor and Blu Ray player, it was down res'd to 2 channel when playing the movie (after selecting 'Uncompressed PCM' from Casino Royale).

Mind you my set up is my Radiance receives all my HDMI sources and outputs HDMI1 to the projector and HDMI 2 was set up to send audio to my SSP. In addition, the Halcro SSP sends HDMI out to a plasma in my game room.

I am wondering if the plasma's EDID (possibly 2 ch PCM) is getting back to the Halcro and forcing the multi channel LPCM to got to 2 channel?? Mind you the plasma was off (but plugged in).

I am thinking of going from the Lumagen to the Halcro to the projector (using only one HDMI output port in the Lumagen...). - no second HDMI OUTfrom the Lumagen for dedicated audio to the processor

What EDID settings would I use?

Moreover, what is 'Merged' and 'User Defined' EDID??

Thanks!!

I am using a similar setup.
HDMI1 to my Display and HDMI2 to my Onkyo 885 Preamp.
I had to setup the Lumagen EDID to HDMI2 only and that works.

- Rich

I tried that...but no go.

Is your Onkyo HDMI out plugged into a second display?

The Halcro SSP cannot act as a HDMI sink..It needs a video signal to accept LPCM. My Plasma may be the issue as it is plugged into my SSP.

I am thinking the HD FURY HDMI stripper / sink may be a solution for my Halcro's HDMI out.. (if the planned new configuration above still is problematic).

Thanks.

Jeff,

"I am thinking the HD FURY HDMI stripper / sink may be a solution for my Halcro's HDMI out.."

If you have a free input on the Lumagen just plug the output of the Halcro into one of the inputs on the Lumagen.

Shawn

Jeff,

"I am thinking the HD FURY HDMI stripper / sink may be a solution for my Halcro's HDMI out.."

If you have a free input on the Lumagen just plug the output of the Halcro into one of the inputs on the Lumagen.

Shawn


I do Shawn..I'll try that today...Thanks..

Does my theory on the plasma (on the Halcro HDMI out) causing the 2 ch down res seem plausible to you?

How would I set up EDID?

I tried that...but no go.

Is your Onkyo HDMI out plugged into a second display?

The Halcro SSP cannot act as a HDMI sink..It needs a video signal to accept LPCM. My Plasma may be the issue as it is plugged into my SSP.

I am thinking the HD FURY HDMI stripper / sink may be a solution for my Halcro's HDMI out.. (if the planned new configuration above still is problematic).

Thanks.

The Onkyo is not passed to a second display. I have to set the Video output off which causes the Lumagen to output a blank 720P signal to deliver the audio.

Here is my setup:
Oppo 980H -> XD -> Onkyo 885 (HDMI 2)
TiVo S3 -> Onkyo 885 -> XD

XD -> Panasonic 657uy via HDMI 1

This caused a hotplug loop so Lumagen sent me a firmware version to set the hotplug ON for HDMI 2 which fixed that.

The ultimate solution for me will be virtual inputs so I can go to the Onkyo first for switching and pass the video on to the Lumagen.

- Rich

WHat is hot plug?? And how did it fix your problem?

WHat is hot plug?? And how did it fix your problem?

My problem had to do with a HDMI EDID loop since the XD was both the first and the second in the chain for two outputs. I am not completely sure, but Lumagen implemented it earlier for me. You may want to ask them if it could help you.

- Rich

Jeff,

"Does my theory on the plasma (on the Halcro HDMI out) causing the 2 ch down res seem plausible to you?"

The SSP *should* alter the audio EDID to whatever it supports. The Lexicon does that for sure.

"How would I set up EDID?"

Set it to USER EDID for audio and select the modes that the Halcro supports. Then you don't have to worry about it.

Shawn

'USER EDID'?

Modes the Halcro supports? I don't understand..

I'm sure the answer is buried some where in this thread, but can the Lumagen be adjusted for CIH setups if the movie has an "off" aspect ratio like 2.20:1 or 2.0:1 or something like that?

There are other wide-screen ratios besides 2.35:1 to contend with.

Can you adjust the picture if you run across a Blu-ray movie that won't let you adjust the subtitles and they spill into the lower black bar?

If you feed the Lumagen 1080p/24 does it keep it at 1080p/24 through the entire processing chain or is 2:3 pulldown applied then the processing is added, and then 2:3 pulldown elimination to get back to 1080p/24? The latter would not be ideal if that's the case.

Dan

Jeff,

Go into the Audio Setup of the Lumagen, set it to USER EDID. Then it pops up the various formats of LPCM/audio that can be passed over HDMI. Set them to Yes or No if the Halco supports it or not.

Shawn

'USER EDID'?

Modes the Halcro supports? I don't understand..

Extended display identification data (EDID) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data) is used to communicate the capabilties between the two devices. In the case of a Lumagen, you now have 3 devices thus the options in Lumagen to traffic the correct EDID to you player and receiver. There are manual settings in the Lumagen but I do not think they support multi-channel PCM. For me, I need to do two things:

1) Send a signal a video signal to carry the information (Video Off).
2) Use the HDMI2 output set to EDID2 to make sure that the Preamps capabilities are communicated back to the Oppo so it will send multi-channel PCM.

Also note, that in order to send multi-channel PCM the video carrier must be 720P or greater.

- Rich

"There are manual settings in the Lumagen but I do not think they support multi-channel PCM. "

They do.

Shawn

Extended display identification data (EDID) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data) is used to communicate the capabilties between the two devices. In the case of a Lumagen, you now have 3 devices thus the options in Lumagen to traffic the correct EDID to you player and receiver. There are manual settings in the Lumagen but I do not think they support multi-channel PCM. For me, I need to do two things:

1) Send a signal a video signal to carry the information (Video Off).
2) Use the HDMI2 output set to EDID2 to make sure that the Preamps capabilities are communicated back to the Oppo so it will send multi-channel PCM.

Also note, that in order to send multi-channel PCM the video carrier must be 720P or greater.

- Rich
Hmm, this is all very fascinating. I have planned to have much the same connection sheme. When my XD arrives, I intend to connect it to my Onkyo 605 via HDMI 1 (say). This is the ONLY connection I intend to have to the Onkyo - period - all others via the XD. The XD will be connected to my display directly, not via the Onkyo.

Now, for my Oppo 980H to work without having to have my display (TV) on, i.e to play CDs, I had thought that if the Onky was set to HDMI OUT OFF, it would act as a SINK and send back valid HDCP authentication to the XD. I understand, I think, that if the HDMI OUT is set to ON, the Onkyo would act as a repeater and the handshake would occur between the Oppo and the display with the XD acting as a repeater also.

From what has been discussed so far, it (playing a CD without the didplay being ON) could work without the display being ON, but a bit of modding is required. What steps do I need to take to get my setup above to work?

Eureka!!

In scrolling down the manual LPCM settings, I hadn't selected the multi channel LPCM variations (I didn't know there were more to scroll to. Shawn, mentioned this above and when I went to check that area out, I saw what he was talking about. Moreover, it seems the default settings are multi channel LPCM OFF...I assumed that they were automatically enabled)..But I found that there were more settings as I scrolled below the top 3 2 CH PCM configurations.

As Soon as I selected the MULTI Channel configs to 'enabled' and Selected EDID 1, the sound came to life.

Now, I am good with sound. That said, with the constraints of the Halcro processor being able only to accept a standard resolution and my QUalia having a native rate of 1080P24sF, I am stuck on 720P...So a soft picture.

I eagerly await 1080P24sf! (and will use the blanked video HDMI2 for audio).

Thanks for all the help guys...I got the sound I have been anticipating for over a year!!

I am a little lost of this whole EDID and what sends the handshake and what acts as a repeater WRT audio -- the video I get...can someone please provide a EDE 101 for me (as well as the others who I aure will also benefit)..

Thanks.

My receiver is not HDMI at this time. I am getting a HD-A3 HD Dvd player for Christmas and it only has either HDMI or Optical for audio.
Can I have the audio come into the Radiance on HDMI (old fashion Dolby Dig or DTS) and out of radiance via Coax to the receiver? I want to at least get Dolby Digital. Or should I just get an optical cable into Radiance and then out via coax to receiver

Thanks

Can I have the audio come into the Radiance on HDMI (old fashion Dolby Dig or DTS) and out of radiance via Coax to the receiver? I want to at least get Dolby Digital.


Yes.

My receiver is not HDMI at this time. I am getting a HD-A3 HD Dvd player for Christmas and it only has either HDMI or Optical for audio.
Can I have the audio come into the Radiance on HDMI (old fashion Dolby Dig or DTS) and out of radiance via Coax to the receiver? I want to at least get Dolby Digital. Or should I just get an optical cable into Radiance and then out via coax to receiver

Thanks

I'm using that setup with my RadianceXD and I can confirm that it works.

Oh, and hi Otto :)

Hilsen Martin

thanks, can't wait to try it

JRP - What sort of noise reduction controls? Mosquito and/or block? Other?

The Gennum GF9450 we use (their latest chip) in the RadianceXD has:
- Temporal noise reduction for SD and HD sources (motion adaptive)
- Mosqito noise reduction
- Block artifact reduction (do not use unless the source is total crap)
- Diagonal edge enhancement (both coarse and fine edge)
- Horizontal edge enhancement (both coarse and fine edge)
- Vertical edge enhancement (both coarse and fine edge)

These are all programmable.

Note that the Lumagen no-ring scaling (TM) has mosquito noise reduction built in, so you may not want to use the Gennum mosquito noise reduction. At least be aware of this and use the Gennum to complement the Lumagen mosquito nooise reduction by using as little as you think you can.

The Lumagen mosquito noise reduction is intrinsic in the no-ring algorithm we are using.

All the block-artifact reduction schemes I have seen suffer from the "if you only have a hammer everything looks like a nail" syndrome. If you have a good source, then block-artifact reduction will tend to make it look worse. So, leave it off for decent sources. However, if the source is really bad, it is useful for mitigating the hard-edge-at-8-pixel-block-boundary effect of over compression.

I'm sure the answer is buried some where in this thread, but can the Lumagen be adjusted for CIH setups if the movie has an "off" aspect ratio like 2.20:1 or 2.0:1 or something like that?

There are other wide-screen ratios besides 2.35:1 to contend with.

Can you adjust the picture if you run across a Blu-ray movie that won't let you adjust the subtitles and they spill into the lower black bar?

If you feed the Lumagen 1080p/24 does it keep it at 1080p/24 through the entire processing chain or is 2:3 pulldown applied then the processing is added, and then 2:3 pulldown elimination to get back to 1080p/24? The latter would not be ideal if that's the case.

Dan

Dan:

We don't have a 2.2 input aspect button. However, this can be delt with by having a special output configuration for say 2:20 and then selecting the 2.35 input aspect ratio. One possible way would use our "output shrink" feature to create the correct height and pillar box effect for the 2.2 aspect input.

We allow you to adjust for text below the active raster. This again would be a special setup but it can be done.

24p input with 24p output is kept as 24p throughout the pipeline.

Radiance EDID and passing LPCM AUDIO Question:
... what is 'Merged' and 'User Defined' EDID??

Jeff:

I saw you got it figured out in a later post but thought this a good question to answer for general consumption.

We felt it important for a high-end video processor to have two HDMI outputs to deal with the various possibilities for setting up a system. Because we have two HDMI outputs, and often one is used for a projector without audio and the other to drive the amp, we have a very flexible setup for how video and audio EDIDs are passed back to sources.

- Video EDID is setup independently from audio.

- Merged audio EDID passes back the set of audio modes specified by the HDMI out1 and by HDMI out2. With this mode you are limited by the least featured output device. We have changed our default audio EDID mode to "use OUT1 EDID" as the old default of "merged" was causing some confusion.

- You can pass back the audio EDID from OUT1's connected device or OUT2's connected device, or you can specify exactly the modes you want support with our audio "user defined EDID"

- You can also programmatically select which audio EDID to pass back (e.g. if OUT1 has active video do use OUT1 EDID, else use User Defined).

- The "user defined Audio EDID" modes we enable by default are the "safer" modes (2 channel PCM and DD 5.1). We do not specify the more advanced modes by default since this is often used by people using our SPDIF output and we do not want to enable a mode that might cause problems. Always a delema between "work out of the box the majority of systems," verses "allow everything."

- The audio "user EDID" is also nice to use with external amps connected to a Radiance output even when they properly report that they support more advanced features. The reason is that once this is set, the Radiance does not need to wait for the AMP to be on to report which modes are enabled back to sources. Also, most amps seem to need the HDMI input to be selected before thay will report EDID info back to the Radiance, so this helps in that situation as well. I think audio "USER EDID" is a great way to go if you know the modes you want to support, since it will provide the most seemless interface given how amps, and HDMI, are designed.

... When my XD arrives, I intend to connect it to my Onkyo 605 via HDMI 1 (say). This is the ONLY connection I intend to have to the Onkyo - period - all others via the XD. The XD will be connected to my display directly, not via the Onkyo.

Now, for my Oppo 980H to work without having to have my display (TV) on, i.e to play CDs, I had thought that if the Onky was set to HDMI OUT OFF, it would act as a SINK and send back valid HDCP authentication to the XD. I understand, I think, that if the HDMI OUT is set to ON, the Onkyo would act as a repeater and the handshake would occur between the Oppo and the display with the XD acting as a repeater also.

From what has been discussed so far, it (playing a CD without the didplay being ON) could work without the display being ON, but a bit of modding is required. What steps do I need to take to get my setup above to work?

I think a good setup would be:
- Radiance Out1 to the display.
- Radiance Out2 to Onkyo.
- Set Radiance Out2 video to OFF (it will then pass audio at 1080i with blank video).
- Radiance MENU->Audio set to either pass-out-2, or USER EDID (I prefer the later for reasons I state in my previous post).
- Onkyo HDMI output off as you have stated.

Even if the display is off this should work for your audio CD's.

Jim,
I know I can order the XD as a Beta, but I am on the pre-buy awaiting GA. I know GA will miss Christmas, but are we looking at a January or February delivery?

Jim,
I know I can order the XD as a Beta, but I am on the pre-buy awaiting GA. I know GA will miss Christmas, but are we looking at a January or February delivery?

Given the number of features that remain to be implemented, I'd say February or March. Lumagen is welcome to surprise us. :)

JRP,

Thanks for the explanation....

I did run into one new glitch in setting up multichannel LPCM over HDMI. Recall, I set up my system with

- All sources ----> Radiance----> HDMI OUT1 ----> Projector
*HDMI OUT2 (Audio) directly to Surround Processor


Oddly,

1. When selecting 'Uncompressed LPCM' on BLu Ray discs, I have no issues in getting the multi channel sound in the aforementioned configuration. Though occassionally, 2 ch comes up instead.

2. When selecting Dolby TRUE HD on HD DVD, I can only get 2 ch LPCM instead of the desired 5.1 ch LPCM! *Note when I reconfigure / recable the whole set up, (Sources---->Radiance------> Surround Processor-----> Projector - not using HDMI out 2 for audio and now putting the Radiance 'after' the surround processor , I get the desired TRUE HD multichannel LPCM!!?? What do you think is going on?

Now on my Radiance, the EDID I am set up with is User EDID and I selected ALL PCM possibilities... I am wondering if it is possible that having 2 ch PCM enabled AND Multichannel LPCM enabled is confusing thre HD DVD player or 'forcing' the HD DVD player to give me 2 channel LPCM instead of 5.1 Channel LPCM... Is this possible??

Should I only select the PCM modes I'll realistically use rather than select everything in the audio EDID menu?

Jeff:

I posted a reply on the Beta forum to your same post there.

Jim,
I know I can order the XD as a Beta, but I am on the pre-buy awaiting GA. I know GA will miss Christmas, but are we looking at a January or February delivery?

We have been stuck in the mire of bug-fix mode for about four weeks now. We are back on new feature work now, with the Primary-gamut changes next up on the list. So production software is delayed to perhaps February.

But why wait. Hardware is production and the software is easily updated when new releases come out.

....

But why wait. Hardware is production and the software is easily updated when new releases come out.

Personally, I wait for the reasons you know..
1) Maybe new board for hdmi 1.3 ...
2) Hoping PRO version with SD/HD SDI Bnc input connectors on back panel
3) Better stable firmware fully functions both CMS and fully Noise Reduction

:cool: Then I'll say ... THIS IS THE KILLING MACHINE ! :cool:and will place my order ! ;)

Jim,

I am also waiting for the pro version. What's you current thinking about schedule.

Jim,
I am also waiting for the pro version. What's your current thinking about schedule.

Based on feedback, we will be doing the HDMI 1.3 version of the RadianceXD first. There were certainly calls for the RadiancePro version first, but we think it's best to upgrade the RadianceXD first.

I think we will have the Beta RadianceXD HDMI 1.3 sometime in Q2. The Pro will follow about a quarter later and we believe will be in Beta by September. We might not need a Beta for the Pro as the differences are in adding HD-SDI inputs, and changing the analog input connections, which doesn't affect the software much.

I should be ready to announce the upgrade cost for RadianceXD HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.3 in about a week. I can say that we will be doing this as a board exchange, direct to Lumagen, with a specified fee in the USA. We will then take the "pre-owned" HDMI 1.1 boards, put them in a new case, and sell them with a full warranty as "new-case, pre-owned boards" for a discounted price verses a new unit. It seems this will be a good value for those of us not urgently wanting HDMI 1.3, and since the case, remote, and power-supply, will be new, no one would ever be able to tell the difference from a new unit.

I will also say that we are doing this at a loss -- until we resell the "pre-owned" boards. Selling these does net us a profit on the total exchange. So we will not be unhappy with the deal, and hopefully our customers are happy about the pricing.

Based on feedback, we will be doing the HDMI 1.3 version of the RadianceXD first. There were certainly calls for the RadiancePro version first, but we think it's best to upgrade the RadianceXD first.

I think we will have the Beta RadianceXD HDMI 1.3 sometime in Q2. The Pro will follow about a quarter later and we believe will be in Beta by September. We might not need a Beta for the Pro as the differences are in adding HD-SDI inputs, and changing the analog input connections, which doesn't affect the software much.

I should be ready to announce the upgrade cost for RadianceXD HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.3 in about a week. I can say that we will be doing this as a board exchange, direct to Lumagen, with a specified fee in the USA. We will then take the "pre-owned" HDMI 1.1 boards, put them in a new case, and sell them with a full warranty as "new-case, pre-owned boards" for a discounted price verses a new unit. It seems this will be a good value for those of us not urgently wanting HDMI 1.3, and since the case, remote, and power-supply, will be new, no one would ever be able to tell the difference from a new unit.

I will also say that we are doing this at a loss -- until we resell the "pre-owned" boards. Selling these does net us a profit on the total exchange. So we will not be unhappy with the deal, and hopefully our customers are happy about the pricing.

Just one question; will there be a limited time frame for us to take advantage of this offer? I imagine that the more we wait, the harder it would be for you to resell those 1.1 units. Thing is, I know I do want 1.3 eventually, but probably not anytime soon, and I'd hate to be rushed. :(

I think we will have the Beta RadianceXD HDMI 1.3 sometime in Q2. The Pro will follow about a quarter later and we believe will be in Beta by September. We might not need a Beta for the Pro as the differences are in adding HD-SDI inputs, and changing the analog input connections, which doesn't affect the software much.

I should be ready to announce the upgrade cost for RadianceXD HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.3 in about a week. I can say that we will be doing this as a board exchange, direct to Lumagen, with a specified fee in the USA.

Sounds good to me.

But if HDMI 1.3 solves any issues for you, you may want to consider a break-even approach where you do not re-use the 1,1? boards ;)

- Rich

Based on feedback, we will be doing the HDMI 1.3 version of the RadianceXD first. There were certainly calls for the RadiancePro version first, but we think it's best to upgrade the RadianceXD first.

I think we will have the Beta RadianceXD HDMI 1.3 sometime in Q2. The Pro will follow about a quarter later and we believe will be in Beta by September. We might not need a Beta for the Pro as the differences are in adding HD-SDI inputs, and changing the analog input connections, which doesn't affect the software much.

I should be ready to announce the upgrade cost for RadianceXD HDMI 1.1 to HDMI 1.3 in about a week. I can say that we will be doing this as a board exchange, direct to Lumagen, with a specified fee in the USA. We will then take the "pre-owned" HDMI 1.1 boards, put them in a new case, and sell them with a full warranty as "new-case, pre-owned boards" for a discounted price verses a new unit. It seems this will be a good value for those of us not urgently wanting HDMI 1.3, and since the case, remote, and power-supply, will be new, no one would ever be able to tell the difference from a new unit.

I will also say that we are doing this at a loss -- until we resell the "pre-owned" boards. Selling these does net us a profit on the total exchange. So we will not be unhappy with the deal, and hopefully our customers are happy about the pricing.

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuh, what is teh deal for those of us in Canada and elsewhere outside of the USA?

I am a little lost of this whole EDID and what sends the handshake and what acts as a repeater WRT audio -- the video I get...can someone please provide a EDE 101 for me (as well as the others who I aure will also benefit)..

Thanks.

Bump...somebody please...

Based on feedback, we will be doing the HDMI 1.3 version of the RadianceXD first. There were certainly calls for the RadiancePro version first, but we think it's best to upgrade the RadianceXD first.



That is good news Jim! I am one of the very annoying few that are hung up on the 1.3 audio issues. :)

Thanks!

Based on feedback, we will be doing the HDMI 1.3 version of the RadianceXD first. There were certainly calls for the RadiancePro version first, but we think it's best to upgrade the RadianceXD first.

Just put my order in for the VP50Pro and HD-SDI, will be checking back here after Q2 for the Radiance Pro.

Yay! New update.

I know, it's been a while, but nothing's really changed on the XD front these last few weeks. Anyhow, on the program tonight;

- a precision regarding the AJA hd-sdi to hdmi device. This might be a deal breaker. It would be for me.
- an actual time frame for the RadiancePro. Seriously.
- new info on the XD's upgrade program to hdmi 1.3 Good or bad, depending on how you look at it I guess.
- new time frame for the XD's release. Really.
- and last, but certainly not least: user escon has taken apart his brand new XD unit. Just for you - and he has the pics to prove it. Thanks Phil!

Updates should be more frequent in the coming weeks, as we're approaching (finally!) official release. Stay tuned.

I can say that we will be doing this as a board exchange, direct to Lumagen, with a specified fee in the USA.

Jim,

In the spirit of clear communications and reducing unfounded speculation could you please explain what exactly this means? It is already being reported elsewhere this means a return to factory of the entire unit for factory board swap. Is this accurate or is something else planned, like your posted idea of a "send new unit iin advance on CC reservation, with follow-up return of old unit to factory" (which as I recall many prefered).

I think you are looking for a second option here - one of trading up to a new XD 1.3. I would imagine that that would be more expensive as you are now talking about a whole new unit.

Previously Jim also mentioned that for those who feel comfortable doing their own board swap, he would be happy to do a CC pre-pay/part-refund on a board alone. This would certainly be my preference. Have a look at the the photos in the Unofficial Radiance XD FAQ thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909924)(the very end of the first post) where you will see a picture of the innards of the XD. It's really not that hard to do a board swap yourself. It's a lot lighter on the hip pocket nerve wrt freight costs and probably a lot quicker too as the only downtime you have is your board swap time.

In response to HDMI 1.3 upgrade questions:

- Yes, the special price will be a limited time offer. The offer will only apply to those who buy before the HDMI 1.3 version is available. We will also limit how long owners have to go for the upgrade, but have not determined an end date yet.

- Generally we expect most owners in the USA and Canada will return their unit to us for the upgrade, but we will allow those who are comfortable with, and we feel comfortable with, replacing their own boards to do so themselves. This would be done with a CC charge and a CC reservation against the return of the HDMI 1.1 board.

- Joel, we'll make sure to take care of you if you want the HDMI 1.3 upgrade in Canada. I'm sure we can do a direct deal for you there.

- In other countries we will need to work through our local distributors. These will likely be by board swap through the distributors. The couple of distributors I have talked to so far agree they will also be very aggressive on the upgrade pricing.

- I changed my mind on the "full-unit trade in" since I think we can price the upgrade more agressively with just a board swap. The reason is that I think the "pre-owned board, new case" unit will have more value than the "pre-owned unit." Those I have talked to are not concerned about the fact the board is not new since it has a full warranty, but they are very concerned that the unit's case is in new condition. This approach allows us to offer this.

In response to HDMI 1.3 upgrade questions:

- Yes, the special price will be a limited time offer. The offer will only apply to those who buy before the HDMI 1.3 version is available. We will also limit how long owners have to go for the upgrade, but have not determined an end date yet.

- Generally we expect most owners in the USA and Canada will return their unit to us for the upgrade, but we will allow those who are comfortable with, and we feel comfortable with, replacing their own boards to do so themselves. This would be done with a CC charge and a CC reservation against the return of the HDMI 1.1 board.

- Joel, we'll make sure to take care of you if you want the HDMI 1.3 upgrade in Canada. I'm sure we can do a direct deal for you there.

- In other countries we will need to work through our local distributors. These will likely be by board swap through the distributors. The couple of distributors I have talked to so far agree they will also be very aggressive on the upgrade pricing.

- I changed my mind on the "full-unit trade in" since I think we can price the upgrade more agressively with just a board swap. The reason is that I think the "pre-owned board, new case" unit will have more value than the "pre-owned unit." Those I have talked to are not concerned about the fact the board is not new since it has a full warranty, but they are very concerned that the unit's case is in new condition. This approach allows us to offer this.

Jim, thanks so much for the clarification and support...much appreciated...that sad, you can put me on the list of "those wanting to upgarde"...

- Generally we expect most owners in the USA and Canada will return their unit to us for the upgrade, but we will allow those who are comfortable with, and we feel comfortable with, replacing their own boards to do so themselves. This would be done with a CC charge and a CC reservation against the return of the HDMI 1.1 board.

Add me to the upgrade list, please. I would prefer going for the self-installed board swap. I am very comfortable with doing this myself.

Thanks for the excellent clarification.

As an RS1 owner with its oversaturated and overbright Green primary The Radience seems the way to go with its CMS. I have read a few threads about how the Radience can correct the saturation but what about the brightness/illumination (Y) Are there independant controls for adjusting the brightness of the primaries already in the Beta version ?
Sorry if this has been covered before.

Jim, can you tell me if the swap out of the 1.1 board involves any soldering or is it purely mechanical ?

008 the swap out is purely mechanical.....but I can solder........ :)

The CMS is not complete yet, it's still beta

Gordon

I have read a few threads about how the Radience can correct the saturation but what about the brightness/illumination (Y) Are there independant controls for adjusting the brightness of the primaries already in the Beta version ?
Jim has said that they have been working on the CMS as part of their bug fixes. Right now, there are not any "brightness", nor are there "saturation" or "hue", controls, so the design the Radiance uses is perhaps a bit different than you are expecting.

Bill

Jim has said that they have been working on the CMS as part of their bug fixes. Right now, there are not any "brightness", nor are there "saturation" or "hue", controls, so the design the Radiance uses is perhaps a bit different than you are expecting.

Bill

Bill,

My Radiance beta unit has "hue" controls and, while there is no explicit "saturation" control, I have used the gamut adjustment to greatly minimize the oversaturation of my RS1.

Mike

Bill,

My Radiance beta unit has "hue" controls and, while there is no explicit "saturation" control, I have used the gamut adjustment to greatly minimize the oversaturation of my RS1.

Mike
Mike - yes, these controls exist, but they are not part of the CMS function itself. Those are more properly described as color decoder controls. The CMS controls are the ones where you can add some of the "off" primaries to the "on" primary to desaturate that primary a bit.

Bill

The CMS controls are the ones where you can add some of the "off" primaries to the "on" primary to desaturate that primary a bit.

Bill

Isn't that what the "Gamut" control does?

Mike - yes, these controls exist, but they are not part of the CMS function itself. Those are more properly described as color decoder controls. The CMS controls are the ones where you can add some of the "off" primaries to the "on" primary to desaturate that primary a bit.

Bill

Bill:

I have to agree with Mikela on this one...under the GAMUT control are the controls for RED, GREEN and BLUE where each controls provides the ability to add the other primaries to it (i.e. RED contriol has ADD GREEN and ADD BLUE).

Ok, I get my XD next week. A few questions:
1) Are there updates to the hardcopy users guide online or do the software downloads contain the updated info.
2)If the latter, does that mean I will have to go back and look up all the download documents updated between when the users manual was printed and when my version of the software was documented, or is the users manual totally online and dynamic?
3) If the manual is online, where?

Will the pro version have both SD-SDI and HD-SDI input?

Will the pro version have both SD-SDI and HD-SDI input?Yes, the same input handles both formats.

will the Radiance do a variable vertical stretch on a 2.35 picture. In other words can I increase vertical picture size say 5%, 10%, 20% etc.

Ok, I get my XD next week. A few questions:
1) Are there updates to the hardcopy users guide online or do the software downloads contain the updated info.
2)If the latter, does that mean I will have to go back and look up all the download documents updated between when the users manual was printed and when my version of the software was documented, or is the users manual totally online and dynamic?
3) If the manual is online, where?

The printed manual you'll get assumes full release functionality, so there are no updates to it that follow the firmware updates. It is a pre-release manual though, and will get updated for release. Not sure if Lumagen will send out new ones or just let you download the final version. It is not online yet.

Will the pro version have both SD-SDI and HD-SDI input?

I see Phil got that one, but this is answered in the FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909924). Read it. :)

will the Radiance do a variable vertical stretch on a 2.35 picture. In other words can I increase vertical picture size say 5%, 10%, 20% etc.

It's supposed to, but curiously I don't see it mentioned anywhere in the list of already-implemented or upcoming functionality.

Bill:

I have to agree with Mikela on this one...under the GAMUT control are the controls for RED, GREEN and BLUE where each controls provides the ability to add the other primaries to it (i.e. RED contriol has ADD GREEN and ADD BLUE).
The gamut control IS the CMS. The rest of it is really more properly described as affecting the color decoder, even though it, too, is signal manipulation.

Check the "color gamut" discussion on the Beta board for more details. This is an area where we are spending a LOT of time and effort in the Radiance beta test. :)

Bill

The gamut control IS the CMS. The rest of it is really more properly described as affecting the color decoder, even though it, too, is signal manipulation.

Check the "color gamut" discussion on the Beta board for more details. This is an area where we are spending a LOT of time and effort in the Radiance beta test. :)

Bill

Thanks Bill. With the existing Gamut controls I guess you can add blue and red to desaturate the green on the RS1 but wont that increase the brightness of green in doing so thereby increasing the alredy excessive brightness/luminance of green on the RS1

008: Lumagen are aware of what happens when you alter primaries in this way. The firmware currently takes all this in to account. They are trying to make it both accurate and simple to use...no mean feat.

008: Lumagen are aware of what happens when you alter primaries in this way. The firmware currently takes all this in to account. They are trying to make it both accurate and simple to use...no mean feat.

Thanks Gordon. As im not the most experienced with calibration can you tell me if my presumption is correct in that adding say blue and red to green will desaturate green but increase luminance of green.

If that is so are you saying that the Radience will at some point compensate for any increase in colour brightness/luminance automatically ? Now that would be cool. And if that is so what is the state of the current software, does it make any automatic compensation now to help reduce colour luminance as well as saturation.

Cheers

The gamut control IS the CMS. The rest of it is really more properly described as affecting the color decoder, even though it, too, is signal manipulation. Bill

Bill,

This is not in question and I am part of the beta. I just wanted to make sure folks did not get the wrong impression from your previous post. There IS a "hue" control and there IS a way to adjust saturation...and yes it's ALL signal manipulation.

Mike

The printed manual you'll get assumes full release functionality, so there are no updates to it that follow the firmware updates. It is a pre-release manual though, and will get updated for release. Not sure if Lumagen will send out new ones or just let you download the final version. It is not online yet.

Thanks, Dave. I'm looking forward to seeing just what this unit can do.

008: I can confirm that the current beta firmware doesn't alter the luminance of the primaries when you add other primary components to them.

008: I can confirm that the current beta firmware doesn't alter the luminance of the primaries when you add other primary components to them.
Thanks Gordon. Sounds great.

I've read a lot of this thread over time, but don't want to go back an read it all again right now. So I'd like to know if the final version, whenever it gets out with 1.3, will be the same price as the current beta verson. I'm assuming this current beta verson is being offered at a lower price, right ?

But there is going to be a charge for exchanging the boards for 1.3. So while I know the price hasn't be released yet, I'm wondering if in the end if there will be much difference in price. Well what I mean is buying it now, paying the exchange price for the board, verses buy later when its all finished.

I've considered buying one but I have the VP50pro now, so I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do regarding getting a Radiance. How well the different types of noise reduction it will have works, is also something I'm waiting to hear about. But to get it all together seems to have taken a long time.

Thanks Gordon. As im not the most experienced with calibration can you tell me if my presumption is correct in that adding say blue and red to green will desaturate green but increase luminance of green.

If that is so are you saying that the Radience will at some point compensate for any increase in colour brightness/luminance automatically ? Now that would be cool. And if that is so what is the state of the current software, does it make any automatic compensation now to help reduce colour luminance as well as saturation.

Cheers
This was an area where we helped a little. :) There is still some testing to be done on the firmware to ensure that this works the way the model says it should, but yes, it will automatically compensate for the shift in luminance when you add "off" primaries to the "on" one. Our goal on our end, then, will be to automate this entirely.

Bill

I received my RadianceXD beta on Christmas eve. I am pleased with this unit and what it does for my viewing pleasure. I am a complete tyro on A/V advanced topics although I have some technical background. I have done little else than simply plug in all of my feeds and change output to upscale all of it to 1080p.

My wife and I watch a lot of content on our JVC DLA-RS1. From our 500+ SD/DVDs (Denon 5900), our Vudu box, and our cable over TWC. In each instance we have noted a "sharpening" or deepening of the image. By that I mean that objects stand out more than before - seemingly more 3d. The improvement in TWC cable content is simply hard to believe.

We have a couple of favorite DVDs with which we like to test new installations/upgrades. We watched "Total Recall" on Christmas. The scenes with mountains on Mars were awesome - a depth and majesty we had never seen before. T2 will be next - we have several versions of it an will be watching the "enhanced version. After that for me, the next DVD will be "The Fifth Element" - I will watch it alone because my wife can no longer stand it because I have watched it too often. I'll let you know how these two turn out when I follow-up.

I cannot wait until I start the formal set up process to get the test images set to fit my viewing environment. But for now, I can say "thanks" this works as I would have wanted.

This is all for now. Again, thanks AVScience and Lumagen.
LT

Could someone please confirm for me that the preferred input into Radiance from BR/HDDVD is 1080i60 rather than 1080p24. I am sure I read in this thread that is what JRP recommends - but now I cannot find it to be sure?

Could someone please confirm for me that the preferred input into Radiance from BR/HDDVD is 1080i60 rather than 1080p24. I am sure I read in this thread that is what JRP recommends - but now I cannot find it to be sure?

My opinion may differ from Jim's. I use 24p from both a Pioneer HD1 and PS3. I have compared the resolution test pattern results from Sony BDs and concluded that the 24p output looks to have a slightly higher resolution than the 1080i output. Look at the phone numbers for the company that is the source of the patterns. Regarding HD-DVD, I have no test patterns to compare but use 24p since I have little faith in Toshiba's capabilities. The conclusion I draw from the BD results is that having even good players "mess" with the video (i.e deinterlace it) reduces the quality. Let the Radiance do as much of the work as possible.

Could someone please confirm for me that the preferred input into Radiance from BR/HDDVD is 1080i60 rather than 1080p24. I am sure I read in this thread that is what JRP recommends - but now I cannot find it to be sure?

As I am not at home I can not check but I believe that 1080p24 has yet to be implemented within the Radiance...that said, it would be great for someone near a Radaince to either correct or confirm my memory...

That said, I can not think of any reason why 1080i60 would be preferred over a properly implemeted1080p24.

TIA

As I am not at home I can not check but I believe that 1080p24 has yet to be implemented within the Radiance...that said, it would be great for someone near a Radaince to either correct or confirm my memory...

That said, I can not think of any reason why 1080i60 would be preferred over a properly implemeted1080p24.

TIA

Joel:

Not output from Radiance (24p is not implemented yet, you are correct) - input into Radiance!

Simon

Could someone please confirm for me that the preferred input into Radiance from BR/HDDVD is 1080i60 rather than 1080p24. I am sure I read in this thread that is what JRP recommends - but now I cannot find it to be sure?

I will add my opinion on this: I believe it will always be preferrable to use the resolution/frame rate that's native to the source whenever possible. However, in some cases the resolution that would _seem_ to be the closest match to the native resolution, actually isn't. Examples of this would be Samsung BDP-1000, where 1080P is a de-interlaced 1080i (which the radiance would probably do better than the Samsung), not derived directly from the 1080P off the disc. Especially if wou watch music discs with 1080i/60 material (still rare, I know). Another example is that while the Toshiba's with 24 fps output seem to work using 24 fps material, you'll end up with issues as soon as you try to watch material that isn't 24 fps. It'll be a lot easier to change memory of the Radiance, than go into the setup of the player to change to another output for these discs.Also, I'm not convinced that the 24 fps output is read directly off the disc, and not some de-interlaced output, like the Samsung.

With sources capable of displaying the source resolution directly, i.e. the Pioneer player and to some extent the PS3, I would definately use 1080P/24 into the Radiance.

I received my RadianceXD beta on Christmas eve. I am pleased with this unit and what it does for my viewing pleasure. I am a complete tyro on A/V advanced topics although I have some technical background. I have done little else than simply plug in all of my feeds and change output to upscale all of it to 1080p.

My wife and I watch a lot of content on our JVC DLA-RS1. From our 500+ SD/DVDs (Denon 5900), our Vudu box, and our cable over TWC. In each instance we have noted a "sharpening" or deepening of the image. By that I mean that objects stand out more than before - seemingly more 3d. The improvement in TWC cable content is simply hard to believe.


Thanks. So I am concluding the the more 3D look of the picture is not a result of the colors management system since you have not tried that?

Just setting up my XD and I'm having a problem with audio. I am using output 1 for video only to my RS-1, and HDMI output 2 for audio only through my Onkyo 805. I have connected the XD HDMI 2 out to the HDMI 1 input on the Onkyo (cable/sat name). The Onkyo cable/sat display is showing no signal. In the XD menu, I set Output 2 to "no video."
Can someone with a similar setup help me with the proper settings.

Make sure in the audio part that HDMI2 audio is 'ON'.

In the audio menu on the XD, try selecting ALWAYS ----- USER EDID -------HDMI1 OFF - HDMI2 ON - SPDIF OFF and make sure to scroll through all the soundtrack choices and select them after selecting USER EDID.

Do you have a display connected to the Onkyo HDMI out? If no, that could be the problem (no HDMI sink). Or , I believe the Onkyo allows you to turn off the HDMI output... try that as well.

Thanks, Jeff. I will try your suggestions. I actually have the Onkyo HDMI out connected to HDMI 2 on the RS-1. I plan to use it to view and manage my Onkyo ipod dock (connected to Onkyo directly.) I can switch to HDMI 2 on the RS-1 to choose music on the iPod and then switch back to video on HDMI 1 to watch sports while listening to music.

Stan

Make sure in the audio part that HDMI2 audio is 'ON'.

In the audio menu on the XD, try selecting ALWAYS ----- USER EDID -------HDMI1 OFF - HDMI2 ON - SPDIF OFF and make sure to scroll through all the soundtrack choices and select them after selecting USER EDID.

Do you have a display connected to the Onkyo HDMI out? If no, that could be the problem (no HDMI sink). Or , I believe the Onkyo allows you to turn off the HDMI output... try that as well.

Jeff,
Thanks a million. I needed to set all the options in USER EDID. I can now move forward. Thanks again! Oh yeah, one other question. I set output 1 to 16:9 for all inputs, but it defaults to 4:3 everytime I go to standby or have to unplug the unit. How do I make this permanent?

Stan

Jeff,
Thanks a million. I needed to set all the options in USER EDID. I can now move forward. Thanks again! Oh yeah, one other question. I set output 1 to 16:9 for all inputs, but it defaults to 4:3 everytime I go to standby or have to unplug the unit. How do I make this permanent?

Stan

You have to 'Save' any change that you make. I'm surprised that your audio EDID changes stuck if you didn't Save them.

You have to 'Save' any change that you make. I'm surprised that your audio EDID changes stuck if you didn't Save them.

I was looking for the "save" option, but all I see is the "OK" option. Also, I am running software load 111207 and was trying to update. Since my laptop does not have a rs-232 port, I am using a USB to serial cable. I keep getting connection error msgs. Do you know if there is a problem with using this device?

Stan

Edit: I found "save"- nevermind! Still having update problems, though

I am using a usb to serial as well, and had trouble at first. It turns out that every time you plug the little device in, Windows assigns it a different COM port. So you need to go into the system manager, look at your hardware devices, and you will find the actual port that the device is emulating. You need to indicate that port in the update program, as it cannot find it automatically.

That's my experience anyway, your issue might be a different one. :)

I am using a usb to serial as well, and had trouble at first. It turns out that every time you plug the little device in, Windows assigns it a different COM port. So you need to go into the system manager, look at your hardware devices, and you will find the actual port that the device is emulating. You need to indicate that port in the update program, as it cannot find it automatically.

That's my experience anyway, your issue might be a different one. :)

As it turns out, my problem was that the Radio Shack guy that sold me the USB to serial cable suggested that I remove the null modem cable (that came with unit) from the loop because "too many cables cause problems." I, in fact, needed to include the null modem cable in the loop. That fixed the problem!

Thanks to you guys for your suggestions and to Patrick at Lumagen Support.

Stan

As it turns out, my problem was that the Radio Shack guy that sold me the USB to serial cable suggested that I remove the null modem cable (that came with unit) from the loop because "too many cables cause problems." I, in fact, needed to include the null modem cable in the loop. That fixed the problem!

Thanks to you guys for your suggestions and to Patrick at Lumagen Support.

Stan

Weird - I never had to include a null modem in my path. I'm wondering if the usb to serial that I have doesn't already include it. It must, if that's the only way it'll work.

Always remove the Radio Shack guy from the loop.

Turns out the cable I pulled out of my box of cables (don't ask) is a null modem cable.

I'm an idiot.

Turns out the cable I pulled out of my box of cables (don't ask) is a null modem cable.

I'm an idiot.

Don't worry, I'm sure most of us have boxes of cables, adapters, wires, and all manner of A/V accessories!

New firmware release includes the following:

Beta Release 121707- Adds 2D/3D (aka temporal) noise reduction. Adds adaptive contrast enhancement. Adds directional sharpness and texture settings. The noise/contrast/sharpness settings are all found under the Input:Video Setup:XXX:Enhance menu. Modifies the primary gamut controls so that they now affect the secondaries and adds a direct matrix entry option in the menu. Fixed some small color conversion errors in the video datapath. Adds hotplug mode setting (under Input:HDMI Setup) for situations where the source does not tolerate hotplug retriggering for EDID updates. Numerous bugfixes.

OK, I am apparently an idiot also!

Cannot seem to figure out how to set up two separate output configurations. I have an external anamorphic lens and want to have, for example, MemA set to 2.35 and MemB set to 1.78. I see the output configs and have set Config0 to 2.35 and Config1 to 1.78, but cannot figure out for the life of me how to associate theses configs to the Mem outputs.

Help!

I am sitting in a hotel room after rather a few too many beers....so please forgive the vagueness.

What you have to do is associate each output config with an input.

So you have CONFIG 1 as 1.78:1 for instance and config0 as 2.35 etc

If you navigate to MENU>IN> then you will find somewhere under the subfolders for this a setting that says output, in that you will be able to select the OUTPUT CONFIG you want to use for the memory you are on. Choose the one you want for 1.78:1/16:9(config 1 in my example) and save it under say mema, then press the MEMB button and navigate and save your 2.35:1 output config for it(config 0 in my example).

Then go and Save,

Now you should find that when you select the memory for the 2.35:1 setting and you select 2.35:1 input aspect ratio you use the whole of the pixel array (and you lens makes things the correct shape)

then when you select the other memory and remove the lens from the chain you can press 16:9 and it will use the whole pixel array....

I presume this is what you are after.....

Minor update; the newest firmware update implements the Gennum image enhancement controls, so I moved that feature from the to-do list to the done list, but I also added the details of what these 'enhancements' are about.

ah, got it! but how do I cahnge the resolution of each config - only config0 and config3 are set to 1080p, the others are set at lower resolutions and there does not seem to be any way to change them?

Thx!

simon

but how do I cahnge the resolution of each config - only config0 and config3 are set to 1080p, the others are set at lower resolutions and there does not seem to be any way to change them?

Thx!

simon

You have to key in a command through the remote. I don't have the manual in front of me but you can look it up.

Mike

I have been following this thread for several weeks, looking at external VPs, and the Radiance is one of my finalists. I am not very sophisticated in these matters, however, and if my question is noobish, I apologize.

Before I ask my question, let me say that this is the smartest and best design of an informational thread that I have ever seen. Great job, Dave G.

My question regards mpeg processing. In the FAQ there are only references to "mpeg". I assume mpeg-2 is covered, but wonder about mpeg-4. Do you know if "BAR" functionality applies to mpeg-4?

I have been following this thread for several weeks, looking at external VPs, and the Radiance is one of my finalists. I am not very sophisticated in these matters, however, and if my question is noobish, I apologize.

Before I ask my question, let me say that this is the smartest and best design of an informational thread that I have ever seen. Great job, Dave G.

My question regards mpeg processing. In the FAQ there are only references to "mpeg". I assume mpeg-2 is covered, but wonder about mpeg-4. Do you know if "BAR" functionality applies to mpeg-4?

Hey kj,

It doesn't matter what codec is employed for the source you're watching, because the XD doesn't do any kind of decoding, it gets the picture in 'raw' format from its sources. The reason MPEG is mentioned is because it is a codec that is infamous for producing (after decoding) these blocks when using too much compression, but it is just an example, the BAR could be applied just as well to a quicktime file from an htpc for example.

That said (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) since MPEG-4 is only in use on HD sources (Blu Ray, HD DVD), chances are you won't need to use the BAR feature on sources using it.

Hope this helps. And thanks, glad you like the FAQ!

You have to key in a command through the remote. I don't have the manual in front of me but you can look it up.

Mike

OK, but for the life of me cannot seem to see how. Setting the output with 'Menu 027' was pretty simple, but this just sets Config0. If I go into the output menu, select configs, and then Config1, I cannot seem to get any command to change the output to 1080p. Tried '027' which does not work and any combination of the up/down or left/right arrows just scrolls amongst the various configs, it does not change the output resoluton for a particular config.

I guess I will have to call L and have them walk me through this - tired of wating time on it! It is a great scaler, but I have to say I will be happy when the production software arrives to enable all the menu functions.

OK, but for the life of me cannot seem to see how. Setting the output with 'Menu 027' was pretty simple, but this just sets Config0. If I go into the output menu, select configs, and then Config1, I cannot seem to get any command to change the output to 1080p. Tried '027' which does not work and any combination of the up/down or left/right arrows just scrolls amongst the various configs, it does not change the output resoluton for a particular config.

I guess I will have to call L and have them walk me through this - tired of wating time on it! It is a great scaler, but I have to say I will be happy when the production software arrives to enable all the menu functions.
Follow these steps:

1. Menu->Input->Video->[resolution]->Out1 Select. Choose Config1->OK.
2. Menu->Exit
3. Menu 027.
4. Menu->Save->Save->OK.

I do this all the time and it should work.

I did the latest update yesterday and I'm having problems locking the signal of my direct tv.I'm not getting a picture is any one having this problem

I did the latest update yesterday and I'm having problems locking the signal of my direct tv.I'm not getting a picture is any one having this problem

As it relates to the above:

1. No, I am not having a problem with any of my sources, granted I do not have DirectTV.

2. Sounds like an HDMI handhsaking issue...suggest that you turn off both the DirectTV STB and the Radiance and then power both on, noting that the power on order may have an impact (i.e. I have to turn my SA 8300 HD STB on first and then the Radiance).

3. With that, more information on your connections/setup would be usedul.

HTH.

I have DirecTV with the new firmware and no problems locking the signal.
Hope this helps.

WHat is 'hot plug'? I see it in the new firmware...

I have tried every thing.I will call Jim tomorrow.

I did the latest update yesterday and I'm having problems locking the signal of my direct tv.I'm not getting a picture is any one having this problem

I had a similar probelm with the 121707 firmware with my cablebox. Had to reboot the cablebox to fix the problem.

Jiujitsu,



I did have this problem with my a source... I cured it by engaging the hotplug option. It cured it... I had to disconnnect to the HDMI cable to do so as the screen was stuttering so much. Not sure how it did it, but it did...

Hey kj,

It doesn't matter what codec is employed for the source you're watching, because the XD doesn't do any kind of decoding, it gets the picture in 'raw' format from its sources. The reason MPEG is mentioned is because it is a codec that is infamous for producing (after decoding) these blocks when using too much compression, but it is just an example, the BAR could be applied just as well to a quicktime file from an htpc for example.

That said (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) since MPEG-4 is only in use on HD sources (Blu Ray, HD DVD), chances are you won't need to use the BAR feature on sources using it.

Hope this helps. And thanks, glad you like the FAQ!

Thanks for the explanation. I was under the impression that some of the newest DirecTV signals are MPEG4.

The block sizes in the new codecs are smaller than those in MPEG1/2. BAR will only work on MPEG1/2 with the larger block sizes, AFAIK.

Thanks for the explanation. I was under the impression that some of the newest DirecTV signals are MPEG4.
I did some googling and it looks like you're right. Though I do my best, I'm not all knowing. :)

Jiujitsu,



I did have this problem with my a source... I cured it by engaging the hotplug option. It cured it... I had to disconnnect to the HDMI cable to do so as the screen was stuttering so much. Not sure how it did it, but it did...Thanks Jeff,I will try it

can anyone shed more light on the hotplug issue?

I've been having some issues that sort of look like they are hotplug related...

Maintains the .5 mv signal carrier required for HDCP
Provides a continues handshake protical to the chain even if you change outputs.

Thanks. So I am concluding the the more 3D look of the picture is not a result of the colors management system since you have not tried that?

I use the preset values that shipped with the system - they are set to specific values - which I have not changed.

My wife is in love with the picture from the XD. She likes it more than any of my other a/v purchases - it improves our viewing pleasure so much.

On high-quality material from the HD channels over TWC, it looks like the people can step right off the screen - the image is so clear and sharp.

With poorer quality feeds, the images are dramatically improved. We watched a much older DVD - one with poor transfer. It was almost unwatchable in the orignal - and the XD converted it to a merely "great image" - not as good as converting from HD, but very good.

Follow these steps:

1. Menu->Input->Video->[resolution]->Out1 Select. Choose Config1->OK.
2. Menu->Exit
3. Menu 027.
4. Menu->Save->Save->OK.

I do this all the time and it should work.

Thx! Worked like a charm.

Is the Beta Pre-Buy still available? If so, could someone who knows the details please PM me?

Thanks, Ian

See the FAQ listed in my sig. You can simply call AVS, they'll hook you up.

Annoyingly a couple of emails that I sent to AVS a while ago went ignored. Do I have to use the good ol' telephone, then?

Chris.

How are folks accommodating SDI sources with Radiance XD? I borrowed the Algolith SDI-to-HDMI converter to try but it does not appear compatible - picture has the shakes! Is there a 3rd party option while waitnig for the Lumagen converter (any timing on this?).

Perhaps I will have to use the HDMI output from my DVD player for now - although it is suboptimal as my player does not have a 480i passthru mode (so I have to use a preprocessed 1080i into Radiance).

I am thinking when upgradeitis hits agin, I may go for the pro model instead.

Simon

Annoyingly a couple of emails that I sent to AVS a while ago went ignored. Do I have to use the good ol' telephone, then?

Chris.

They're listed at avscience.com/contact.htm - I'd use the main phone # at the top of the page, since the page is a bit out of date (Jason doesn't do sales anymore).

Bodshal...my apologies that no one got back to you. Not sure what happened but feel free to call me in the office Wednesday and I will be happy to help you out.

Have a great New Year!

Or maybe he does :)

Thanks. I'll probably give you a call tomorrow then - I finally gave up with some issues on my CII and went back 2 firmware releases to get a reliable system. Life shouldn't be like this!

Chris.

How are folks accommodating SDI sources with Radiance XD? I borrowed the Algolith SDI-to-HDMI converter to try but it does not appear compatible - picture has the shakes! Is there a 3rd party option while waitnig for the Lumagen converter (any timing on this?).

Perhaps I will have to use the HDMI output from my DVD player for now - although it is suboptimal as my player does not have a 480i passthru mode (so I have to use a preprocessed 1080i into Radiance).

I am thinking when upgradeitis hits agin, I may go for the pro model instead.

Simon

The Algolith does work...you have to switch the frame order in deinterlacitng options.
FYI:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=889936&highlight=vigga
I decided to pick up an Oppo 980 which does 480i over HDMI...

also:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909082&highlight=vigga

The Algolith does work...you have to switch the frame order in deinterlacitng options.


Hi Vigga:

Oh, I see - thanks for the tip! Unfortunately, however, this solution now looks worse than going 1080i straight out of the player via HDMI. Shall have to wait either for the Lumagen adapter or perhaps go with the pro unit whenever it becomes available. I must say, now that I have a fairly extensive collection of HDDVD/BR discs, regular DVD is starting to creak a bit!

Simon

I use the preset values that shipped with the system - they are set to specific values - which I have not changed.

My wife is in love with the picture from the XD. She likes it more than any of my other a/v purchases - it improves our viewing pleasure so much.

On high-quality material from the HD channels over TWC, it looks like the people can step right off the screen - the image is so clear and sharp.

With poorer quality feeds, the images are dramatically improved. We watched a much older DVD - one with poor transfer. It was almost unwatchable in the orignal - and the XD converted it to a merely "great image" - not as good as converting from HD, but very good.

What were you using before? I wasn't expecting any great increase in quality upgrading to the Radience except for custom scaling and management of HDMI etc.

Previously I was using a Lumgen HDQ. Personally, I have seen a significant improvement with Radiance in PQ from cable (video sources), about the same for HDDVD/BR and perhaps a slight decline from DVD (resulting from 'double' scaling). Overall, the Radiance is superb!

Okay, I ordered a RadianceXD from AVS earlier (Thanks Jason!) - now I'll need to write a driver to control it from CQC - is the command protocol via RS232 documented anyplace yet? Or should I wait till I get into the beta forum?

Cheers,
Chris.

Okay, I ordered a RadianceXD from AVS earlier (Thanks Jason!) - now I'll need to write a driver to control it from CQC - is the command protocol via RS232 documented anyplace yet? Or should I wait till I get into the beta forum?

Cheers,
Chris.

The protocol is in place though not complete, more commands will be added in the future (probably after release). The existing commands are listed in the manual you'll get with the XD. They're more than sufficient for day to day operation (personally I only use input switch).

Okay, I ordered a RadianceXD from AVS earlier (Thanks Jason!) - now I'll need to write a driver to control it from CQC - is the command protocol via RS232 documented anyplace yet? Or should I wait till I get into the beta forum?

Cheers,
Chris.Chris, I already have a one way driver for CQC for the XD. The protocol is essentially equivalent to the IR functionality (no feedback). Protocol enhancements are planned post release that should make a two way driver practical. PM me with an e-mail address and I will send the driver...

When the production unit of the radiance XD avaliable ?
Will it be hdmi 1.3a ?

mat.

When the production unit of the radiance XD avaliable ?
Will it be hdmi 1.3a ?

mat.

:confused:

You've got to be kidding me.

When the production unit of the radiance XD avaliable ?
Will it be hdmi 1.3a ?

mat.There is a ton of discussion in this thread about 1.3 and the production version. Go here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=909924) for a summary.

Aha, I thought I recalled you mentioning this once before. I'll PM you on the CQC forum. Thanks Mark.

All the Lumagen products use the same basic RS232 commands. You can see a complete list of commands at the end of the FAQ on our website.

http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=faq_vis

We will be posting the latest revision of the Radiance manual on our website shortly. A complete list of commands is included at the back of the manual.

Only send a single ASCII character without a return character. If you add the return character to the command it is the same as pressing a button on the remote and then pressing the "OK" button.

Best regards,
Randy Freeman

Previously I was using a Lumgen HDQ. Personally, I have seen a significant improvement with Radiance in PQ from cable (video sources), about the same for HDDVD/BR and perhaps a slight decline from DVD (resulting from 'double' scaling). Overall, the Radiance is superb!

I am surprised by your DVD comment although I am not certain what you mean by "double scaling". I had an HDP prior to the Radiance and the Radiance had at least equal PQ IMO. The Radiance picture was a bit soft for my tastes but increasing the sharpness level on my TV cured that. The recently implemented enhanced video settings have greatly improved SD DVD PQ on my setup. My point of reference for SD DVD for all software updates is Star Wars- Attack of the Clones. Modest use of the enhanced video features results in PQ that IMO exceeds that from what I remember of the HBO HD offerings. The adaptive contrast settings ( I use 3) results in a very visable 3D effect something I find amazing from SD material. My setup is a Pioneer HD1 using 480i direct output over HDMI to the Radiance with the TV being a 65" Panny 1080p plasma. Prior to adaptive contast being available I though the Panny was incapable of showing the 3D like affects that many claim to see from BD or HD-DVDs. With adaptive contrast set at ~3 the 3D affect is noticeable from many movies as well as good PQ HDTV.

Can the Radiance (and also the HDP) accept 1080p24 input and output it as 1366x768p24? Same with 1080p25 -> 768p25?

Reason why I'm asking is that my 50PHD8 shows a sharper picture when I feed it 768p24 compared to 768p48 (analog connection).

I am surprised by your DVD comment although I am not certain what you mean by "double scaling". I had an HDP prior to the Radiance and the Radiance had at least equal PQ IMO.

Simply that in my previous setup I was sending an unscaled 480i video signal directly to the HDQ from an SDI-modified DVD player. Since Radiance does not yet support SDI, I am now forced to send the video signal via HDMI, and none of my players will do 480i. Sending 1080i or 480p to the radiance seems conterproductive as I would expect its deinterlacing capability is superior to that of my players. Subjectively, the picure is not as good as it was with HDQ.

ca1ore: Have you tried sending analogue 480i to Radiance?

ca1ore: Have you tried sending analogue 480i to Radiance?

I have not but it's a good interim idea - will try it! Not a good longer-term solution, however, so I sure hope Jim P. is still working on the Lumagen SD-to-HDMI converter - I will be the first in line to buy one!

I have a 4 year old so I have watched the DVD of 'Madagascar' in the theater countless times. Normally I play it on an Oppo feeding 480i to the Radiance. I had the Oppo out of the system temporarily so I started playing this in the Toshiba HD-A35 which has the DVDO VRS chip in it.

The discs starts out with a preview for 'Over the Hedge' on it. This looks like an interesting test for how quickly a deinterlacer adapts to changing video. On the HD-A35 (feeding 1080p to the Radiance) every time the preview cuts to/from Steve Carell I was getting a brief picture that looked like it was about half of the lines before it was solid again. I didn't recall seeing that with the Radiance performing the deinterlacing so I put the Oppo back in feeding 480i to the Radiance and watched it again and it doesn't do that. Looks like the Gennum handles transitions better/quicker there.

Shawn