It's called overscan and anybody who knows even a little about TV's could have told you what it was. All TV's have some percentage of overscan, which cuts off the edges all around. I don't think you are nuts, but this is a pretty well known phenomena and unless it is over 5% or so, not really anything to worry about.

yeh i know that ,and sorry i didnt mention that,and your right its not really a issue with me but then again with wide screen i thought you get the whole picture...i guess not

yeh i know that ,and sorry i didnt mention that,and your right its not really a issue with me but then again with wide screen i thought you get the whole picture...i guess not

If it bothers you, you can always go into the service menu and adjust it. Mine is less than 2.5%, so it really isn't any more off than 90% of the framing in theaters.

It's called overscan and anybody who knows even a little about TV's could have told you what it was. All TV's have some percentage of overscan, which cuts off the edges all around. I don't think you are nuts, but this is a pretty well known phenomena and unless it is over 5% or so, not really anything to worry about.

A notable exception is Westinghouse whose sets do not have any overscan.

fafner

Well I just watched "Touching the Void" which clearly states that it is Dolby 5.1 on the DVD sleeve and the 2ch light was still lit on the A2 window, as well as the sound coming from the front speakers only. I'm puzzled.

I have not yet set the HDMI audio to Downmixed PCM. I guess I'm trying to understand how that would change anything. Clearly I'm missing something.

Incidentally, my firmware is 2.2 not the latest 2.5 yet as that was not available over the Ethernet a few days ago when I did the upgrade.

Anyone any ideas?

Rudy
OK so it looks like A2 will not output anything but a 2 channel sound for standard DVDs. Although 5.1 works just fine on HD-DVDs. Is this a known thing? :(
My firmware is at latest 2.5 now. As I mentioned previously, my receiver does not have HDMI, so the connection from A2 is optical.

Rudy

I have a HD-A2 and PT-AE900U 16:9 ratio projector and get full screen using HD cablebox and RGB cable. When I start movies on the HD-A2 (HDMI cable) it will be full screen on some of the opening screens but it always goes to letterboxing 4.5 inches black top and bottom when I run movies. I have already updated the bios and have set the aspect to 16:9 but every movie has the problem. When I hit play the on screen arrow is within the top black letterboxing of the screen. Does anyone else have this problem? :mad:

Either this is silly or you have a real problem and I can't tell which from the info you provided.

First... are the movies with the black bars above and below DISTORTED at all? In otherwords, do people and other objects look distorted... short and fat? Are circles circular or oblong? If there is distortion you may still have a setting problem somewhere in your system - projector or disc player.

If the images are NOT distorted, you're simply watching 2.35 aspect ratio movies on a 16:9 display device. That produces fairly substantial black bars at the top and bottom of the screen and would place the > play symbol (and || pause, and >>> search icons) all in the black bar area which is what I suspect happens. Now this would be the silly part because everybody knows 2.35 movies always produce black bars on 16:9 (1.78) displays and ALWAYS have. ALWAYS, unless you use ZOOM and cut off the sides of the pircure the director/cinematographer wanted you to see. If you hate black bars, you need a $10,000+ projector with an ~$10,000 supplemental optical system that puts an additional lens in place for 2.35 movies to show them at "constant height" so there are no black bars at the top or bottom. But then you need a 2.35 aspect ratio screen with motorized masking (and possibly a curved one depending on what optical system you select to make the constant height images) and that sort of screen will run you another $5000+. For those of us who have budget constraints, black bars are a fact of life and have always been there unless we are remorseless home theater hacks who don't mind cutting off the edges of wide aspect ratio movies just to get rid of the black bars on the top and bottom.

Go look at the "specs" (often listed on the back of the box) for all the movies you watched that had black bars. If all of them say 2.35 Aspect Ratio or 2.35 Widescreen or something like that, you watched all 2.35 movies (most action, science fiction, blockbuster, and epic movies are shot in 2.35, most comedies, dramas, ect. are shot in 1.85 which may have TEENY TINY black bars or they may just shave the edges a little in mastering and fill your 1.78 screen/display.

thats not right,and you will think im nuts...but from left to right i havent seen a tv,hdtv,plazma,lcd anything that displays aspect rato correctly. however computers do.in fact on 2,35 theres very thin black bars on the sides.
in 1.85 there will be blacks bars around the top,bottom and sides. i did this test 2 yrs ago and everyone thought i was nuts until they tried it.
try this ,put your tv on ,dvd,hddvd or bd player on.
put a disc in ,i did this with a startrek film.
pick a wide shot and take notice at the very edges of the right and left side.
now take that dvd and put it in your computers dvd rom drive.
pick the same wide shot and youll see what i mean.
i did this with a guy i knew at best buy and we tried this test with lcds plazmas and then 3 computers ...he was shocked and got mad at me !!

i then got on the internet and emailed tv companys and they did answer but had no answers.
one guy i talked to gave me a answer that made the most sense so far.
the software used in computers like power dvd etc can squzee the image all the way around more then tvs do.
its not the players or the movies its the tvs.
try it at least it might keep your mind off the format wars.

My first reaction is ********. Unless you are talking about OLD analog CRTs, modern 1080 displays show 1080 sources pixel for pixel or very very close to it. When the display has 1080x1920 pixels and the source has 1080x1920 pixels you see every pixel unless the video display isn't setup quite perfectly, but even then you might lose a few pixels ont he edge and you'd never notice that looking at an image with that many pixels on a PC vs video display.

My guess is you are seeing something for which there is a perfectly good explanation that has nothing to do with anything you posted. I have high-def test discs that have 1080x1920 test patterns and I see every pixel on my video display except at the top I lose 1 line because the internal mirror is off ever so slightly but it's not enough to worry about. Since there are only 1080x1920 pixels on the disc and I see 1079x1920 on my video display, there's no way more image is going to be visible on a PC, period.

It's called overscan and anybody who knows even a little about TV's could have told you what it was. All TV's have some percentage of overscan, which cuts off the edges all around. I don't think you are nuts, but this is a pretty well known phenomena and unless it is over 5% or so, not really anything to worry about.

Except new digital displays don't have it or need it if they are setup properly. A 1080 source should map perfectly (or very close to perfectly) to a 1080 digital video display.

Except new digital displays don't have it or need it if they are setup properly. A 1080 source should map perfectly (or very close to perfectly) to a 1080 digital video display.

True, but what makes you think that a person who doesn't recognize overscan, or even understands what it is, knows enough to utilize the 1:1 mode of his display? All I was trying to do was explain to a person what he was seeing, nothing else.

Please forgive my ignorance, but is there a need to purchase the XA2 rather than the
A30 if I have a Onkyo 605 with HDMI (this in regards to the analog out I've seen discussed). As far as picture quality for the players, I understand that the XA2 with the Reon chip delivers a crisper picture, Is it truly that noticeable? I have the new Sony 55A3000 which has outstanding picture. Value Electronics has a nice deal right now on the A30 with the 3 DVD's thrown in. I don't want to regret making a mistake if the XA2 truly delivers the best picture. I have about 100 SD DVD's that will wanting a very nice upconversion. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Best deal online I could find on the XA2 was at *******. I missed out on the BestBuy closeout price.
Chip

So I have been researching Bluray discs for sometime now. But since Paramount and DreamWorks now went to the HD camp, I need to buy an HD DVD player as well.

Question: should I buy the XA2 or the A35? A35 is newer, but XA2 is the more expensive (but older) flagship. The upcoversion capabilities of XA2 are attractive since it has the Reon chipset. I will be hooking it up to 24fps capable TV through Marantz SR8001 AVR.

Toshiba's site really makes it hard to compare the two units side by side, so I thought I would ask for some help.

[snip]
Question: should I buy the XA2 or the A35? A35 is newer, but XA2 is the more expensive (but older) flagship[snip].

Found the Xa2 vs A35 thread. Let me see what I can learn from there.

OK so it looks like A2 will not output anything but a 2 channel sound for standard DVDs. Although 5.1 works just fine on HD-DVDs. Is this a known thing? :(
My firmware is at latest 2.5 now. As I mentioned previously, my receiver does not have HDMI, so the connection from A2 is optical.

Rudy

Here's your answer: Tosh HD-A2 HD DVD - First End User Reports! thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11706424#post11706424)

Here's your answer: Tosh HD-A2 HD DVD - First End User Reports! thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11706424#post11706424)
Hi grubavs.

Thanks for your reply. I did not see an answer in that thread, however, I did see another guy who has an almost identical setup to mine having the exact same problem. :(

I wonder if Toshiba is aware of the problem.
I'm a little surprised that more people are not talking about this.

Rudy

Please forgive my ignorance, but is there a need to purchase the XA2 rather than the
A30 if I have a Onkyo 605 with HDMI (this in regards to the analog out I've seen discussed). As far as picture quality for the players, I understand that the XA2 with the Reon chip delivers a crisper picture, Is it truly that noticeable? I have the new Sony 55A3000 which has outstanding picture. Value Electronics has a nice deal right now on the A30 with the 3 DVD's thrown in. I don't want to regret making a mistake if the XA2 truly delivers the best picture. I have about 100 SD DVD's that will wanting a very nice upconversion. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Best deal online I could find on the XA2 was at *******. I missed out on the BestBuy closeout price.
Chip

If you are using the HDMI connection for audio, the 2 players should be similar. If you really are talking about the A30 and not the A20, it may have the ability to output TrueHD and DTS-MA - the A20 would not fully decode DTS-MA. The A20 had problems with 1080p output when there was a lot of motion. Presumably the A30 is fixed in that regard, but until a public review appears, that's just speculation.

The HQV Reon chip does absolutely NOTHING to or for 1080p images... nor should it. The movie is stored as 1080p on the disc and should reach a 1080p video display as 1080p data. The only time the Reon HQV chip will do anything is for DVD playback. The A2 and A20 are fairly good at playing DVDs as they are, but nobody would mistake any of them for high-def (except the better CGI animation titles can be pretty convincing... Finding Nemo, for example, can be hard to tell its SD and not HD even without the Reon HQV chip.

All that said, an XA2 replacement with HQV/Reon has not been announced yet and was not shown at CEDIA. The A30 definitely does not have the HQV/Reon chip. Is that a big enough deal to justify the extra cost of the XA2 (and living with the buggy nature of the XA2 - which is no worse than the buggy nature of other high-def disc players)... only you can decide. How much of an improvement is the HQV/Reon chip over the players themselves? I'm using an AVR as a processor right now... it has the Reon chip. I also have the A2 Toshiba player and the S1 Sony Blu-ray player. Frankly, I see zero improvement from passing the output of the Sony S1 directly to the video display versus through the Reon chip in the AVR. ZERO difference. This is using HDMI. Sony S1 set to "Direct" mode (player outputs whatever resolution is on the disc being played so 480i comes out 480i into the Reon chip. Reon chip set to 1080p output. I also tried setting the S1 to 480i output just to be CERTAIN the Reon chip was seeing 480i coming in (no difference I could detect). MAYBE the motion was ever so slightly smoother with the Reon chip... MAYBE, very difficult to be certain. The Reon chip made "ghosts" to the right of "The Two Towers" text more visible than the player or video display on their own, but it was a VERY slight difference. The Toshiba A2 set to 1080i and run through the Reon chip is fairly good, but motion is not quite as good as when the A2 is set to 480i and the Reon chip does all the processing.

Summary... the Reon chip makes the Toshiba A2 a LITTLE better when the A2 is set to 480i. With the Sony S1... there was no detectable improvement in 1080p vs 480i output. All tests done using LOTR-2 Towers.

The AVR I have doesn't have an adjustments for the Reon chip... you either use it or you don't. Some other implementations of the Reon chip have adjustments for various parameters. That MIGHT allow for more improvement, but it's hard to imagine DVD looking much better.

Quick question:

Will the A2 output via component and HDMI simultaneously?

Quick question:

Will the A2 output via component and HDMI simultaneously?Yes, it does!:)

Thanks maxdb for your valued input.

Yes, it does!:)

Thank you.

Please forgive my ignorance, but is there a need to purchase the XA2 rather than the
A30 if I have a Onkyo 605 with HDMI (this in regards to the analog out I've seen discussed). As far as picture quality for the players, I understand that the XA2 with the Reon chip delivers a crisper picture, Is it truly that noticeable? I have the new Sony 55A3000 which has outstanding picture. Value Electronics has a nice deal right now on the A30 with the 3 DVD's thrown in. I don't want to regret making a mistake if the XA2 truly delivers the best picture. I have about 100 SD DVD's that will wanting a very nice upconversion. Thanks in advance for any thoughts. Best deal online I could find on the XA2 was at *******. I missed out on the BestBuy closeout price.
Chip

If you are wanting something to up convert your SD DVDS then I would say go with the XA2 does a great job and a amazing job on the HD DVDS.
The build quality on the XA2 is great I looked at the A30 at BB no comparison in build quality.

Hey guys wonder if you could help me out.

I just received my XA2 today it is hooked up via HDMI for video into my Phillips 42inch plasma 720/1080i. and the audio is going coax into my panny xr55. Ive tried two HD-DVD's now Knocked Up (Universal) and We are Marshall (Warner) and both of them lose the picture signal within 2 minutes, but the audio continues. When I changed to the next chapter the picture comes back but again anywhere from 30sec - 2min the picture goes out and stays out. It has a March 07 build date and I havent updated the firmware. Any thoughts? Thanks for the help.

Josh

Hey guys wonder if you could help me out.

I just received my XA2 today it is hooked up via HDMI for video into my Phillips 42inch plasma 720/1080i. and the audio is going coax into my panny xr55. Ive tried two HD-DVD's now Knocked Up (Universal) and We are Marshall (Warner) and both of them lose the picture signal within 2 minutes, but the audio continues. When I changed to the next chapter the picture comes back but again anywhere from 30sec - 2min the picture goes out and stays out. It has a March 07 build date and I havent updated the firmware. Any thoughts? Thanks for the help.

Josh

First off if the firmware is 2.2 or lower update it first.
Look under HD DVD Master Firmware Burning Thread

First off if the firmware is 2.2 or lower update it first.
Look under HD DVD Master Firmware Burning Thread


Thanks yellow, I will try this and report back

Thanks yellow, I will try this and report back

You can also go to Toshiba's web site and it will tell you how to check the version on your XA2 and also how to down load or update thru Ethernet connection.Just be sure to follow all the directions.
Then you are on your way to great HD DVD and SD DVD movie viewing:)

One more question:

Does the A2 come with an HDMI cable?

One more question:

Does the A2 come with an HDMI cable?
No. No DVD player ever comes with an HDMI. There is however, a composite cable in the box, which at these resolutions and sound quality is completely useless as far as I can see. I purchased my HDMI cable from Monoprice and am very happy with it.

Rudy

The A1 came with an HDMI cable.

One more question:

Does the A2 come with an HDMI cable?

The Costco model of the A2 HD DVD player has the HDMI cable.:)

The A1 came with an HDMI cable.

The Costco model of the A2 HD DVD player has the HDMI cable.:)

Doh! OK fine. :D

Just got the new HD DVD of The Wild Bunch. When I tried playing it on the XA2 last night, I got audio but no sound. Then I got nothing and the message "4086 4203." Trying various things, turning tv on and off, resetting the player (which has the 2.2 upgrade), somehow I got the movie.

Well, it was late and I only watched half of it. Today I just CAN NOT get anything but the "4086 4203" message (what does that MEAN anyway?).

Do I need 2.5? I cannot download off the internet; do I need to call Toshiba?

Ok - I am trying to determine if the Toshiba A-1 & the Sony BDP S1 will suit my needs. My TV is a Mits 62627 1080p but with 10801 limit HDMI input. I do not plan to upgrade my TV for quite some time, but prob will upgrade my receiver to one with HDMI. I have a media room with 5.1 surround speakers installed (my media room was wired for 5.1, although I have the 6th speaker not installed). I have seen the picture from both players at BB & both output similiar PQ. I have not seen a picture in 1080i, but not sure how much diff there is. Costco has the A2 for $250 & BB has the S1 for $487 (I have $150 in gift cards to use - which brings the net cost to $337 at BB). Any reason I shouldn't get these 2 players - even though they are "out of date"? Thanks in advance for any input.

oops duplicate post

Ok - I am trying to determine if the Toshiba A-1 & the Sony BDP S1 will suit my needs. My TV is a Mits 62627 1080p but with 10801 limit HDMI input. I do not plan to upgrade my TV for quite some time, but prob will upgrade my receiver to one with HDMI. I have a media room with 5.1 surround speakers installed (my media room was wired for 5.1, although I have the 6th speaker not installed). I have seen the picture from both players at BB & both output similiar PQ. I have not seen a picture in 1080i, but not sure how much diff there is. Costco has the A2 for $250 & BB has the S1 for $487 (I have $150 in gift cards to use - which brings the net cost to $337 at BB). Any reason I shouldn't get these 2 players - even though they are "out of date"? Thanks in advance for any input.

i don't know whether or not they'll be good enough for you or not, but i DO know if you can buy BDP-S1's for $487 apiece new, buy every one you can get your hands on... i believe you are referring to the BDP-S300, not BDP-S1...

Yes, there is something you are missing. You don't understand the difference between i and p. 'i' can never be as good as 'p' because 'i' ALWAYS introduces visible artifacts... always. It is impossible to avoid because of the nature of 'i' vs 'p'. You can screw up a 'p' display to have artifacts (use the keystone control or reset the overscan setting by even 1 pixel off perfect pixel-for-pixel mapping).

'i' displays will always have problems with horizontal lines flickering under the right circumstances... most usually slow vertical pans. 'i' displays will always have problems with vertical lines gettting "jagged" edges during horizontal pans (has to be just the right speed or you see good edges or the blur in the image frame is so large the lines wouldn't be sharp on screen anyway. Angled lines will tend to appear 'jagged' with 'i' displays much more often than with 'p' displays also.

It can't be any other way. 'p' displays have to have more bandwidth in the electronics to be able to display 6 million+ pixels for every frame. 'i' displays show 3 million pixels for 1/60th of a second (odd lines of the frame) and 3 million pixels (even lines of the frame) for 1/60th of a second. Because the lines are up for only 1/2 as long as a 'p' display, the images in 'i' displays tend to be perceived as not being as bright as 'p' displays that show all lines of the image for 2 intervals of 1/60th of a second. Of course any brightness differences can't be compared across brands or models because the only time it would apply is if you had 2 identical displays, one in 'i' mode and one in 'p' mode. There are so many other factors influencing image brightness/contrast that the differences from 'i' to 'p' could be overcome by those other factors.

That said... some 'i' displays only receive SIGNALS as 'i' but the display itself is a native 'p' display. So even if the display can't accept anything other than 'i' (or lower res at 'p'), it may be displaying a 'p' image anyway. This is true for most fixed pixel displays I'm familiar with - at least the ones from the last few years. In these cases, there's probably nothing different about the image quality since a 'p' source like high-def discs is just temporarily converted to 'i' to input to the display, but the frames are put back together as 'p' frames for display.

So... the final answer is... it all depends.

Sorry maxdb, but I think it is you who do not understand the difference between i and p perhaps. The 1080i60 signal contains exactly the same information as the 1080p60 signal here, because in this case both were derived from the same 1080p24 source. Feeding the signal from the dvd player to the monitor in 1080p60 format just repeats frames in a 2:3 pattern, sending the same exact frame multiple times. There is no new information. In fact, it is a waste of bandwidth. Unless the monitor is exceptionally poorly designed, it will be capable of perfectly combining this interlaced signal into progressive frames because this signal will have perfect cadence and absolutely no motion between fields since the dvd player just created it from a 24p source.

Rich

Ok - I am trying to determine if the Toshiba A-1 & the Sony BDP S1 will suit my needs. My TV is a Mits 62627 1080p but with 10801 limit HDMI input. I do not plan to upgrade my TV for quite some time, but prob will upgrade my receiver to one with HDMI. I have a media room with 5.1 surround speakers installed (my media room was wired for 5.1, although I have the 6th speaker not installed). I have seen the picture from both players at BB & both output similiar PQ. I have not seen a picture in 1080i, but not sure how much diff there is. Costco has the A2 for $250 & BB has the S1 for $487 (I have $150 in gift cards to use - which brings the net cost to $337 at BB). Any reason I shouldn't get these 2 players - even though they are "out of date"? Thanks in advance for any input.

$250 is not the best price for the A2 (D2 at Costco) any more. This model is in the process of being replaced by the A3 which ships in October. A local retailer (Ultimate Electronics) was advertising the A2 for $229 and online pricing has been even lower than that from reputable sellers ($238 on Amazon and no shipping and no tax unless you are in CA).

The biggest difference in picture and sound quality between the A2 and S1 are the movies that are available. The problem is there are good movies in both formats - great movies in both formats. Having just ONE format over the other cuts you out of a HUGE amount of entertainment. I think everybody who has an interest in high-def movies needs both players.

The S1 doesn't play CDs if that makes any difference to you.

The S1 has 5.1 analog outputs. A2 has stereo analog out only.

Both really need you to use the HDMI output for best picture and sound but that means you have to have a receiver/processor that will decode PCM digital audio from the HDMI inputs... that is only available in newer receivers/processors. You can use the "old" coax or Toslink digital outputs (Toslink only on A2) but you'll never get audio better than DD or DTS from either player - bandwidth limitation of the SP/DIF interface.

For some reason I have a sound delay when I play HDDVD's on my XA-2. I do not have this issue through my Sony BPS-HD1 so I do not think it is an issue with my preprocessor (AVM-50). Can someone help me on this?

Thanks,
Jeff

For some reason I have a sound delay when I play HDDVD's on my XA-2.What firmware revision are you at, what audio connection method do you use, and what setting?

I thought I detected a sync issue with 1.5 but since upgrading to 2.2 all audio's been fine. I use Coaxial-out with the setting at Bitstream.

I will check tonight. The unit is new out of the box so I am not sure what version it has yet. I just played one movie and saw there was this delay. I'm sure the firmware is an older version so hopefully all I need is an upgrade. I am using HDMI out via PCM to my AVM-50

For some reason I have a sound delay when I play HDDVD's on my XA-2. I do not have this issue through my Sony BPS-HD1 so I do not think it is an issue with my preprocessor (AVM-50). Can someone help me on this?

Thanks,
Jeff

I assume you mean you have video delay, i.e. sound is not delayed enough. This is a well known issue with the XA2 and has been discussed much in other threads and this one I think. I haven't checked ver 2.5 yet, but the lip sync error in 1.5 was so bad on analog that I felt it was too distracting to watch. I switched to the optical audio out. At least with optical and coax you can add delay in your AVR. I use 68ms because it's the only choice I have. I don't know of any equipment that can delay the 6 ch analog outputs, so these are pretty useless imho. I heard some people say this was still not fixed in 2.5, but I'm not sure.

Rich

i don't know whether or not they'll be good enough for you or not, but i DO know if you can buy BDP-S1's for $487 apiece new, buy every one you can get your hands on... i believe you are referring to the BDP-S300, not BDP-S1...


Sorry ccotenj- you are correct! I meant to to type BDP-S300.

maxdb - thank you for your input. I plan to buy a player for both formats & rather than buy a dual player (the new samsung will cost approx $800 street pre-order) I thought it made more sense to buy one of each format. I was thinking I could save a few $$ and buy the older models, but since I do need to up grade my receiver to HDMI, I was looking to save a few $$ on the players. I have read all the forums & understand all the issues with various players - but really hate to spend more than I need to (but don't we all). I'll keep reading & watching. I saw the A-30 out, didn't know there was an A-3 coming out. thanks again

Sorry maxdb, but I think it is you who do not understand the difference between i and p perhaps. The 1080i60 signal contains exactly the same information as the 1080p60 signal here, because in this case both were derived from the same 1080p24 source. Feeding the signal from the dvd player to the monitor in 1080p60 format just repeats frames in a 2:3 pattern, sending the same exact frame multiple times. There is no new information. In fact, it is a waste of bandwidth. Unless the monitor is exceptionally poorly designed, it will be capable of perfectly combining this interlaced signal into progressive frames because this signal will have perfect cadence and absolutely no motion between fields since the dvd player just created it from a 24p source.

Rich

Sorry Rich - you either neglected to read the entire second paragraph of my post or you didn't understand it. And you didn't even understand or consider parts of the first paragraph that were referring to native "i" and "p" sources, not high-def disc players alone. With 35 years of experience in the field, I think I have a pretty good grasp of the issues.

And by the way... you aren't paying attention... because high-def disc players limited to 1080i output or set to 1080i even if they can do 1080p produce twitter in 1080 resolution patterns on MANY displays (1080i or p) that are designed quite well overall. The twitter can be eliminated by video processing from the inexpensive Silicon Optix Reon HQV chip all the way up to more expensive solutions. But the twitter is there, quite irrefutable, and is visible in certain content. It's an "i" "p" thing even WITH 1080p24 high def disc sources. These displays just put their design/parts budget elsewhere (other than better video processing). Feed the same displays 1080p and there's no twitter in the resolution patterns provided they are properly setup for 1-1 pixel mapping (many are, some aren't).

Sorry ccotenj- you are correct! I meant to to type BDP-S300.

maxdb - thank you for your input. I plan to buy a player for both formats & rather than buy a dual player (the new samsung will cost approx $800 street pre-order) I thought it made more sense to buy one of each format. I was thinking I could save a few $$ and buy the older models, but since I do need to up grade my receiver to HDMI, I was looking to save a few $$ on the players. I have read all the forums & understand all the issues with various players - but really hate to spend more than I need to (but don't we all). I'll keep reading & watching. I saw the A-30 out, didn't know there was an A-3 coming out. thanks again

By the way, I recall somebody in the S1 or S300 saying they had found the S1 for sale for less than $500 somewhere (sorry, don't remember where that was). So your price when you typed S1 (instead of S300) might be available out there. You know, it might even have been Sony Style where the S1 was being blown out - may have been a "b stock" or something to avoid conflicts in the retail channel. But I hope everybody, by now, realizes "b stock" is a euphemism for "brand new, full warranty, units we're selling way cheaper than everybody else but to keep the other sellers from getting pissed off, we're tagging on this "b stock" name to make it sound like the products might not be as good as the "real" ones being sold elsewhere... oh, and we might put them in a plain box instead of a fancy color-printed box". Anyway, a "b stock" S1 for under $500 would be a good buy also if you don't care that it doesn't play back CDs. The S1 decodes TrueHD while everybody is waiting for an S300 firmware update that adds that feature to the S300 - it hasn't appeared yet.

.......... The S1 decodes TrueHD while everybody is waiting for an S300 firmware update that adds that feature to the S300 - it hasn't appeared yet.

Maxdb - thank you again. I will check out Sony to see if there are any b stock available. I appreciate all your input in all the various AVS Forums. Your willingness to share your knowledge in these areas is very much appreciated.

Sorry Rich - you either neglected to read the entire second paragraph of my post or you didn't understand it. And you didn't even understand or consider parts of the first paragraph that were referring to native "i" and "p" sources, not high-def disc players alone. With 35 years of experience in the field, I think I have a pretty good grasp of the issues.

And by the way... you aren't paying attention... because high-def disc players limited to 1080i output or set to 1080i even if they can do 1080p produce twitter in 1080 resolution patterns on MANY displays (1080i or p) that are designed quite well overall. The twitter can be eliminated by video processing from the inexpensive Silicon Optix Reon HQV chip all the way up to more expensive solutions. But the twitter is there, quite irrefutable, and is visible in certain content. It's an "i" "p" thing even WITH 1080p24 high def disc sources. These displays just put their design/parts budget elsewhere (other than better video processing). Feed the same displays 1080p and there's no twitter in the resolution patterns provided they are properly setup for 1-1 pixel mapping (many are, some aren't).


You may be misunderstanding my point maxdb. If the source is only 24 fps (either from and HD or SD disk) then there is no benefit whatsoever of sending this at 1080p60 compared to sending it at 1080i60 to the monitor. End of story.

If the 1080i feed doesn't look as good it only means that the monitor must have a poor deinterlacer.

The only time a 1080p60 feed will look better is at much higher frame rates. Some video games, for example, may output these rates, but no movies that came from film will. So if you plan to watch movies, you do not need 1080p.

Rich

Hi! New HD-A2 owner here. I just pulled the trigger on the A2 on Amazon a couple of days ago with the two free movie deal. Just got mine today, movies haven't shipped yet, though (Serenity and 300). Got mine all set up and updated, connected to Vizio V32L via HDMI, and tried out the only HD-DVD I have so far, which is Digital Video Essentials (got it for the dvd side at first). Nice picture playing the videos on that disc, and the player is not as slow as I was expecting, which is nice. Plan on picking up a couple of movies tonight (probably Batman Begins and something else). However, just glad to be able to join the HD-DVD owners here and hope to post more in the future!

Sorry, but since there is no dedicated A20 thread, I figured I would post it here:

First of all, I'm really enjoying the HD-A20. I have a Mits 57831 and with the 1080p/24fps firmware, HD-DVD looks amazing. However, I've noticed in the last two days an issue with my sons' Spongebob DVD Seasons on SD-DVD.

I set up the A20 to "stretch" the content (by putting it in 4:3 mode) and when the disc boots up, I see the off color menu icon (blue words vs. white) but when I hit the arrows they don't move. Up/down/left/right and NOTHING is changed. I end up having to hit "Play" and chapter skipping to the episodes he likes as opposed to just selecting them in the menu.

I thought maybe it was the 4:3 option, so I switch it back to 16:9 and it still doesn't work. I went to regular 1080p output and no change. To "Video" mode (instead of "Auto") and STILL nothing works.

HD-DVD menus work fine as does the internal setup menu. What am I doing wrong? Is there a fix? HELP!

*I'm using the out-of-the-box Toshiba remote if that matters.*

i don't know whether or not they'll be good enough for you or not, but i DO know if you can buy BDP-S1's for $487 apiece new, buy every one you can get your hands on... i believe you are referring to the BDP-S300, not BDP-S1...

ccotenj......while it's not $487, you can buy the BDP-S1 at Circuit City online for $549. There is a $50 rebate thru tomorrow. Here's the link:
http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/Search.do?c=1&context=&keyword=sony+bdp-s1&searchSection=All&go.x=19&go.y=8

You may be misunderstanding my point maxdb. If the source is only 24 fps (either from and HD or SD disk) then there is no benefit whatsoever of sending this at 1080p60 compared to sending it at 1080i60 to the monitor. End of story.

If the 1080i feed doesn't look as good it only means that the monitor must have a poor deinterlacer.

The only time a 1080p60 feed will look better is at much higher frame rates. Some video games, for example, may output these rates, but no movies that came from film will. So if you plan to watch movies, you do not need 1080p.

Rich

I'm pretty sure I'm not misunderstanding your point... I just don't LIKE it. Because there are $10,000 projectors that twitter 1080 resolution lines with 1080i sources. Ditto for $7000 projectors and flat panels, ditto for $4000 flat panels and rear projectors and ditto right on down to lower price points. My point is that 1080i to 1080p de-interlacing without twitter is NOT the norm in video displays. Simply writing it off as 'poor deinterlacing performance' is dismissive of the problem. These displays are "perfect" when fed 1080p so if there's a problem with 1080i there's a problem regardless of where it came from. And if 1080p fixes the problem without having to spend $2000 or more on a video processsor or $1600 or more on a new pre-pro with a Silicon Optix HQV chip that DOES delinterlace 1080i to 1080p without problems, then going 1080p can save a lot of money. It's the difference between theory and what happens in the real world.

It's the difference between theory and what happens in the real world.
As Wes Philips once wrote in Stereophile...

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

But IMO to not deinterlace 1080i to 1080p correctly these days is unforgivable, at any price point.

I'm pretty sure I'm not misunderstanding your point... I just don't LIKE it. Because there are $10,000 projectors that twitter 1080 resolution lines with 1080i sources. Ditto for $7000 projectors and flat panels, ditto for $4000 flat panels and rear projectors and ditto right on down to lower price points. My point is that 1080i to 1080p de-interlacing without twitter is NOT the norm in video displays. Simply writing it off as 'poor deinterlacing performance' is dismissive of the problem. These displays are "perfect" when fed 1080p so if there's a problem with 1080i there's a problem regardless of where it came from. And if 1080p fixes the problem without having to spend $2000 or more on a video processsor or $1600 or more on a new pre-pro with a Silicon Optix HQV chip that DOES delinterlace 1080i to 1080p without problems, then going 1080p can save a lot of money. It's the difference between theory and what happens in the real world.

OK. I agree with you.

The reason I bring this up in the first place is that I see too many dealers (and even owners) telling customers that the "need" to buy 1080p displays to get real HD, but mostly they are just wasting their money.

The real situation would be more correctly stated as follows...

"If you buy a 1080p display you will remove the burden of deinterlacing from your display and instead place it in the dvd player."

I think that given the choice I'd rather have the high quality deinterlacing solution (i.e. HQV) in my display rather than in my DVD player. Then I could use it for all input sources.

"If you buy a 1080p display you will remove the burden of deinterlacing from your display and instead place it in the dvd player."

That 1080p display must deinterlace any interlaced signals it gets.

I think what you must have meant is that a 1080p DVD player takes the burden of de-interlacing from the display as it happens in the player.

Cheers!

That 1080p display must deinterlace any interlaced signals it gets.

I think what you must have meant is that a 1080p DVD player takes the burden of de-interlacing from the display as it happens in the player.

Cheers!

True. The original discussion was assuming we had a dvd player that was capable of both 1080i60 and 1080p60 outputs (like the XA2), and in this case whether or not a display capable of a 1080p60 input would perform any better than one that could only do 1080i60.

My position is that it should not because the interlaced output from the XA2 is very well behaved and simple to deinterlace.

The counterpoint was that even some "good" displays still mess up the deinterlacing even when it has no motion between fields and perfect cadence.

A simple "bob" would be an example of this I imagine.

I have one question:


I own the XA2 (since it came out) and I am very pleased, but with Pans Labyrinth coming out on HD DVD (and Blu-ray) I wanted to know if the XA2 can output all or most versions of lossless audio via BITSTEAM to the proper receiver? The HD DVD version will have DTS:HD on it in 7.1 and I'm very excited about this, by the time I have the movie I should have my new Yamaha unit that can handle this signal in Bitstream form.... what sound signals from HD DVD can the XA2 send out as Bitstream over HDMI? Such as TrueHD and DTS:MA/HD? Or can it decode them, or should I be sending them out as Bitstream?

I found an XA2 display model at BB which the manager would give me for about 4xx.... never been used!!! :eek:

Jan 07 mfg date: SLE 710xxxx serial #

Should I jump on this deal>>>>

After scanning the three XA2 threads, I am aware of Lip synch, bass mgment, etc issues....

My equipment: Samsung Hpt 5064 (720P/1080i) Tv
Onkyo AVR( analog inputs/optical/ NO HDMI

My Goals:
Best upconvert for SD films( watch a lot of foreign films)
Best surround sound ( U571 is one of my favourites:p) So I would like to take advantage of the newer sound formats.

Of course I could save some dough by going the A3 route but I think at this price I am almost hooked!!!

Obviously the 1080p issues and capabilities arent going to affect me for the forseeable future...

Please help before it's gone... last one

Doesn't sound like you can use it's capabilities. Why not go with the A2? It's MSRP is 299, and without breaking the forum rules lets just say you can get it significantly cheaper than that. You get 5 free HD DVDs too (not sure you get that with the XA2?).

Gives you 1080i out, all high end audio formats are converted to DTS-ES 1.5MBps.

I have one, I don't think you'd be disappointed. And if HD DVD loses the format war (god forbid), you're only out a couple hundred bucks, but get to enjoy it now instead of waiting for it to sift out.

Just an idea....

I purchased my XA2 at BB for 399 last week. Display model, no box, no manual, otherwise complete.

I have been in HD heaven ever since. Burned the 2.5 update to cd, loaded it and never looked back.

At that price point I say do it now. This is one nifty piece of ht gear.

The upconversion is superb on my Mits Diamond 65 inch crt rear projector via HDMI. And the hd...........well.....perfect!!

Just do it.

Steve

I have one question:


I own the XA2 (since it came out) and I am very pleased, but with Pans Labyrinth coming out on HD DVD (and Blu-ray) I wanted to know if the XA2 can output all or most versions of lossless audio via BITSTEAM to the proper receiver? The HD DVD version will have DTS:HD on it in 7.1 and I'm very excited about this, by the time I have the movie I should have my new Yamaha unit that can handle this signal in Bitstream form.... what sound signals from HD DVD can the XA2 send out as Bitstream over HDMI? Such as TrueHD and DTS:MA/HD? Or can it decode them, or should I be sending them out as Bitstream?

None of the current high-def players in either format (as far as I can tell) will export undecoded DTS-HD MA - the hardware (chip) did not exist when these players were designed. A very small number of players (Panasonic Blu-ray) claim to decode DTS-HD HR.

Unfortunately the problem isn't going to go away soon. New disc players are starting to appear now that STILL won't decode DTS-HD MA nor send it out HDMI. I thought this limitation would disappear in every new player shipping from October forward, but I just happened to look at the Specs for the 2 new Sony Blu-ray players and they both can't do anything with DTS-MA (though there's a typo in the ES player specs that raises questions about whether they even know what they are saying about their own players).

The DTS-HD limitation is no secret - right on Toshibas website, it says DTS-HD support is DTS core only. Though the print is so frikkin tiny, you wonder how many people ever read it - it's the tiniest typeface I've ever seen online.

So, bottom line is that you CANNOT get DTS-HD in either format out of the XA2 and internal decoding to PCM or analog is limited to the DTS core.

You need not obsess about getting the DTS-HD bitstream or TrueHD bitstream out of a player. It really doesn't matter if the player or AVR/processor decodes the codec - in either case the result is PCM and the AVR/processor does EVERYTHING in PCM mode... level setting, bass management, speaker distance correction, EQ... all of it is done in PCM mode. So if your player can fully decode a format and send it out HDMI, your AVR/processor really won't know the difference except it won't have to decode AND process, just process. That means it's no big deal if the player can decode TrueHD and send it out as uncompressed multi-channel PCM on HDMI - your audio performance will be the same. The only bugaboo seems to be that there aren't any players appearing that will decode DTS-HD MA nor will they send it out the HDMI connection as an undecoded bitstream. And that's starting to get annoying.

Even the Gen 3 Toshiba players are not doing anything more than the core DTS file from either DTS-HD format. That's also right from the Toshiba web site.

None of the current high-def players in either format (as far as I can tell) will export undecoded DTS-HD MA - the hardware (chip) did not exist when these players were designed. A very small number of players (Panasonic Blu-ray) claim to decode DTS-HD HR.

Unfortunately the problem isn't going to go away soon. New disc players are starting to appear now that STILL won't decode DTS-HD MA nor send it out HDMI. I thought this limitation would disappear in every new player shipping from October forward, but I just happened to look at the Specs for the 2 new Sony Blu-ray players and they both can't do anything with DTS-MA (though there's a typo in the ES player specs that raises questions about whether they even know what they are saying about their own players).

The DTS-HD limitation is no secret - right on Toshibas website, it says DTS-HD support is DTS core only. Though the print is so frikkin tiny, you wonder how many people ever read it - it's the tiniest typeface I've ever seen online.

So, bottom line is that you CANNOT get DTS-HD in either format out of the XA2 and internal decoding to PCM or analog is limited to the DTS core.

You need not obsess about getting the DTS-HD bitstream or TrueHD bitstream out of a player. It really doesn't matter if the player or AVR/processor decodes the codec - in either case the result is PCM and the AVR/processor does EVERYTHING in PCM mode... level setting, bass management, speaker distance correction, EQ... all of it is done in PCM mode. So if your player can fully decode a format and send it out HDMI, your AVR/processor really won't know the difference except it won't have to decode AND process, just process. That means it's no big deal if the player can decode TrueHD and send it out as uncompressed multi-channel PCM on HDMI - your audio performance will be the same. The only bugaboo seems to be that there aren't any players appearing that will decode DTS-HD MA nor will they send it out the HDMI connection as an undecoded bitstream. And that's starting to get annoying.

Even the Gen 3 Toshiba players are not doing anything more than the core DTS file from either DTS-HD format. That's also right from the Toshiba web site.

I realize that this all moves quickly, but most of what you posted is simply incorrect with regard to bitstreaming of advanced codecs. There are both HD DVD (A35) and Blu-ray (BDP 1400) players that currently bitstream advanced codecs, including DTS HD MA:

A35 and Dolby TrueHD PICS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=915405)
BDP 1400 Now Has Bitstream DTS HD MA! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=910218)

Specific to this thread, the XA2 is supposed to be getting a firmware update "soon" that enables bitstreaming of advanced codecs.

Also, member joerod and others have noted that with their A35s, bitstreaming of True HD to a receiver for decoding there results in subjectively improved sound quality. In theory, if the player decodes and passes the PCM without affecting it, it shouldn't make a difference. BUT, in practice, there are indications that some players may alter the PCM which could be detrimental if not done properly. For example, my A2 applies upsampling (from 48kHz to 96kHz) to the TrueHD Multichannel PCM output if I change a SPDIF setting...this doesn't make sense but is true. I find that leaving it at 48kHz sounds best in my setup. Moral of the story: there may be processing, etc., within players which affects the PCM of decompressed advanced codecs that doesn't happen within receivers... it's possible.

.

For example, my A2 applies upsampling (from 48kHz to 96kHz) to the TrueHD Multichannel PCM output if I change a SPDIF setting...this doesn't make sense but is true. I find that leaving it at 48kHz sounds best in my setup. Moral of the story: there may be processing, etc., within players which affects the PCM of decompressed advanced codecs that doesn't happen within receivers... it's possible.

Many other A2 owners, myself included, find that the 96kHz output sounds significantly better than the 48kHz output.

Personally, I've tried it across all formats & codecs, and it's not even close... hands down better at 96kHz.

I am sitting here watching and listenting to "300" being played on my A35 and my Denon 3808 properly displaying Dolby True HD. I'm going to watch a DTS-MA disk next.

The picture and sound are really fantastic with this combination. Even better than with the A30 I had for a couple of weeks.

fafner

fafner

Many other A2 owners, myself included, find that the 96kHz output sounds significantly better than the 48kHz output.

Personally, I've tried it across all formats & codecs, and it's not even close... hands down better at 96kHz.

Which firmware version are you using? I ask because I tested 48 vs. 96kHz in my setup back in 1.x firmware... I am now current at 2.5. Have you noticed a fix/improvement to the "upsampling" that the A2 performs after firmware updates, or has 96kHz always been better for you?

I haven't tested 96kHz lately, so it would be interesting to do so again. When I decided to stick with 48kHz two factors came into play:
1) 96kHz lacked dynamic range, mostly in the bass region, vs. 48kHz. To me, 48kHz just had more punch and clarity.
2) I have read that all/nearly all of today's HD DVDs are mastered at 48kHz. I chose this option to minimize any processing done to the audio.

Which firmware version are you using? I ask because I tested 48 vs. 96kHz in my setup back in 1.x firmware... I am now current at 2.5. Have you noticed a fix/improvement to the "upsampling" that the A2 performs after firmware updates, or has 96kHz always been better for you?

I haven't tested 96kHz lately, so it would be interesting to do so again. When I decided to stick with 48kHz two factors came into play:
1) 96kHz lacked dynamic range, mostly in the bass region, vs. 48kHz. To me, 48kHz just had more punch and clarity.
2) I have read that all/nearly all of today's HD DVDs are mastered at 48kHz. I chose this option to minimize any processing done to the audio.

I'm running f/w 2.5

Honestly, I cannot say for earlier than 2.0, though. I didn't really have a handle on things until after upgrading to 2.0. But, from 2.0 through 2.5, I played with the two settings extensively. It always sounded MUCH better at 96kHz. I first noticed it when I played one of the HD discs. It used to sound great, then after 2.0 it didn't sound anywhere near as good. I was checking through the A2's audio settings, and found that (I think) during the f/w upgrade to 2.0, the SPDIF setting got flipped. I started the film over and noticed that my AVR display read 48kHz PCM, and it sounded poor (I'm running an HDMI only setup). I changed the SPDIF setting back, and now the AVR display read 96kHz PCM... and that wonderful audio was back again!!!!

Oddly, from the discussions I've had with others who think that 96kHz sounds better, we all seem to think the biggest improvement is in the lower ranges (opposite of what you're hearing). Much fuller, more range, expansive and clear. At 48kHz, the biggest "loss" (IMHO) is in the range, followed closely by dynamics. I also think the channel separation is better, across all 7 channels. The sound stage overall seems more expansive. This is one of those "subjective" things, some agree - others didn't notice as much, either way.

Each time I upgrade the f/w, I rerun the experiment... just to see if there is any difference. Each time 96kHz is the clear winner. Not even close. I asked my daughter to do an A/B comparison (even though she wouldn't know good sound if it hit her in the head). She can tell the difference, too.

Are you sure you're running at 48kHz (not insulting, just curious)? This is the only report I have ever heard where someone thinks that sounds better.

Ok, well that about sums if up for me then, but I'm also wondering about RGB settings on the XA2, is this what I think it is? Being able to access the expanded color spacing on the machine?

I'm running f/w 2.5
Are you sure you're running at 48kHz (not insulting, just curious)? This is the only report I have ever heard where someone thinks that sounds better.

LOL... Yes, I'm sure I'm running at 48kHz (unless my Onkyo's display is wrong). No insult taken :) I, too, am using only HDMI for my DVD/HD DVD use. I read some discussion several months ago and I remember not being alone in selecting 48kHz. It's indeed interesting that I'm finding the exact opposite of your findings at 96kHz. Your description of how it sounds better than 48kHz is the inverse of my experience.

Here are two of my past posts for reference:
Post 1 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10667377#post10667377)
Post 2 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10846151#post10846151)

To get 48kHz, I have Digital Out SPDIF set to Bitstream (setting PCM gets 96kHz). Is this the same for you?

LOL... Yes, I'm sure I'm running at 48kHz (unless my Onkyo's display is wrong). No insult taken :) I, too, am using only HDMI for my DVD/HD DVD use. I read some discussion several months ago and I remember not being alone in selecting 48kHz. It's indeed interesting that I'm finding the exact opposite of your findings at 96kHz. Your description of how it sounds better than 48kHz is the inverse of my experience.

Really weird. I sure wish there was some quantitative evidence either way. Or at least an explaination of both.

To get 48kHz, I have Digital Out SPDIF set to Bitstream (setting PCM gets 96kHz). Is this the same for you?

Yep.

Maybe both of you guys are right. Since tmmittleider was refering to something in May, which was before 2.2 or even 2.0, n Steve was stating the difference after that.

That's why I hate Toshiba in doing all these firmware upgrade without letting us know what have been improved, plus if we have to do some switching to go along with it.

Hi, I REALLY can't read back thru posts right now, and must make an immediate decision. Is there any info on a firmware upgrade or anything that will allow bitstream feed as I have heard elsewhere the A35 will? Please don't tale offense at my asking, w/out the time to research. Thanks!

I realize that this all moves quickly, but most of what you posted is simply incorrect with regard to bitstreaming of advanced codecs.

Uh, NO, actually... ALL of what I posted is perfectly accurate. And it was referring to DTS-HD MA capabilities since that was the question in the original post.


There are both HD DVD (A35) and Blu-ray (BDP 1400) players that currently bitstream advanced codecs, including DTS HD MA:

A35 and Dolby TrueHD PICS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=915405)


The Toshiba website says DTS core from DTS-HD... that's all I have to go on. I don't trust AVR manufacturers or non-pro forum members to properly determine whether a new player decodes or bitstreams DTS-HD MA. Manufacturers DO have unclear and sometimes even inaccurate statements about their products on their websites, but I think it is too early to assume that the A35 player bitstreams DTS-MA when their website says nothing about that capability except for the one statement about 'core only'.




BDP 1400 Now Has Bitstream DTS HD MA! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=910218)


Whoopee! You found one! I said in my post that I couldn't find one - I did not say there weren't any.


Specific to this thread, the XA2 is supposed to be getting a firmware update "soon" that enables bitstreaming of advanced codecs.


And people are supposed to make decisions based on rumors?


Also, member joerod and others have noted that with their A35s, bitstreaming of True HD to a receiver for decoding there results in subjectively improved sound quality. In theory, if the player decodes and passes the PCM without affecting it, it shouldn't make a difference. BUT, in practice, there are indications that some players may alter the PCM which could be detrimental if not done properly. For example, my A2 applies upsampling (from 48kHz to 96kHz) to the TrueHD Multichannel PCM output if I change a SPDIF setting...this doesn't make sense but is true. I find that leaving it at 48kHz sounds best in my setup. Moral of the story: there may be processing, etc., within players which affects the PCM of decompressed advanced codecs that doesn't happen within receivers... it's possible.

And all those people are level matching so they aren't fooled by a 2dB level difference or some other error? Not eveyrthing is equal... the digital out from a Toshiba A2 (Toslink) sounds like CRAP compared to the HDMI output even when the Toslink is sent to a box that removes jitter (and can upsample to 96k and interpolate to 24 bits, but that doesn't help at all in this case). Removing jitter helps, but it's still not close to the sound quality of the HDMI connection which is without word clock - makes no damn sense. Oh... the levels from the A2 HDMI output are higher than the levels from the Toslink output, but even level matching doesn't make the Toslink output sound as good.

maxdb, Uh, I wasn't trying to be rude... please excuse me if my post was taken that way.


The Toshiba website says DTS core from DTS-HD...

More can be found on the Toshiba website: "Additionally, the HD-A35 offers ... High Bit Rate Audio (up to 7.1 channel) via HDMI. With content encoded in 7.1ch, this advanced surround sound is achieved through the HDMI connection bypassing the player's internal audio processor and sending the signal to a 7.1 capable A/V receiver. High Bit Rate Audio will allow the consumer to integrate the HD-A35 with the latest multi-channel A/V receivers and enjoy a whole new dimension of high definition home entertainment."

Source: http://www.toshibahddvd.com/ Look at the third generation HD DVD news release. Alternatively, you can see the same press release at prnewswire dated August 6 here: link (http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/08-06-2007/0004639654&EDATE=)

I definitely agree with your thoughts about manufacturers' websites. Incorrect and unclear information clearly highlights the lack of communication between different functions within many large organizations. One might assume, based on this alone, that evidence outside a company's website can be useful in making an informed decision...

Granted, it doesn't explicitly state "DTS HD MA via bitstream" in the press release. However, it seems reasonable to believe it is happening based on this press release, the findings of other AVS members, and those of other relatively reputable sources (see link below for one example).

Whoopee! You found one! I said in my post that I couldn't find one - I did not say there weren't any.

I actually provided two links ;)... There are more than two on AVS. There are even more on other sites. For example: Ultimate AV (http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/80907toshiba/) states, "According to Toshiba the 3rd-gen players can transmit Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio as native bitstreams to compatible AV receivers and pre/pros."

And people are supposed to make decisions based on rumors?

That depends on their definition of a rumor... and whether they feel comfortable basing a decision on such. Specific to the XA2 getting bitstream, here is just one link confirming that it is coming "soon": HD-XA2 *will* get DTS-HD and Dolby TrueHD bitstream support (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=905008)

In the first post, the OP states, "...I talked to the VP of Marketing for Toshiba's AV products (Jodi Sally) ... and she assured me that the HD-XA2 will *also* get bitstream support for Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus and DTS-HD formats... she [expects] it to be available before year's end."

The parts of the post I edited out are specific to the XA2's 24fps update, which happened, and lend credibility to the bitstream statement.

And all those people are level matching so they aren't fooled by a 2dB level difference or some other error? Not eveyrthing is equal... the digital out from a Toshiba A2 (Toslink) sounds like CRAP compared to the HDMI output even when the Toslink is sent to a box that removes jitter (and can upsample to 96k and interpolate to 24 bits, but that doesn't help at all in this case). Removing jitter helps, but it's still not close to the sound quality of the HDMI connection which is without word clock - makes no damn sense. Oh... the levels from the A2 HDMI output are higher than the levels from the Toslink output, but even level matching doesn't make the Toslink output sound as good.

I'm not sure what you're trying to point out here...First, I realize (as I'm sure most others do) that the vast majority of findings here (all?) are not scientific. Second, I do use HDMI as my audio transport from my A2. The SPDIF setting affects the HDMI output, which is the strange part. It's just an example of how the player may be causing the multichannel PCM of decoded TrueHD to be different than that from a AVR.

Originally Posted by rob755
Hi, I REALLY can't read back thru posts right now, and must make an immediate decision. Is there any info on a firmware upgrade or anything that will allow bitstream feed as I have heard elsewhere the A35 will? Please don't tale offense at my asking, w/out the time to research. Thanks!

See my post directly above... it has a link to a confirmation from Toshiba's VP of Marketing for AV products stating that the XA2 will get a bitstream update.

I just recently jumped in the HD world by buying the XA2. Although the PQ is great I am not wowed with the SQ. I was expecting a significant boost with the uncompresed audio, but I cant hear a diference. I have a Denon 2807, I am using HDMI cables. My reciever says PCM on it when I am watching movies. Am I missing something?

Did you select true hd in the disc menu? It doesn't select that track by default

i will check that out. Do I have to select that at every disc ?

If true hd is available on the disc you have to select it

I know this is probably posted in other forums but have they fixed this problem? I have firmware v2.5. After about an hour of playing a movie the XA2 cuts out for a couple seconds and then the movie resumes. Once this starts it does this about every 20 seconds for the rest of the movie. This is obviously very annoying! Any suggestions? I have moved the XA2 so that it is by itself (i.e. no other heat sources) so this should not be the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

I know this is probably posted in other forums but have they fixed this problem? I have firmware v2.5. After about an hour of playing a movie the XA2 cuts out for a couple seconds and then the movie resumes. Once this starts it does this about every 20 seconds for the rest of the movie. This is obviously very annoying! Any suggestions? I have moved the XA2 so that it is by itself (i.e. no other heat sources) so this should not be the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

What is your setup?
Could be a HDMI handshake problem if that is what your using :)

I am using HDMI between my Anthem AVM-50 and the XA2. I have tried different boot up sequences and still have the same problem. Works perfectly for about half the movie and then the dropouts start occurring.

Jeff

Does it work properly if you bypass the AVM50 and run it direct to the tv? This will tell you if the problem is in the player or the processor

I know this is probably posted in other forums but have they fixed this problem? I have firmware v2.5. After about an hour of playing a movie the XA2 cuts out for a couple seconds and then the movie resumes. Once this starts it does this about every 20 seconds for the rest of the movie. This is obviously very annoying! Any suggestions? I have moved the XA2 so that it is by itself (i.e. no other heat sources) so this should not be the problem.

Thanks,
Jeff

I've experienced the same problem with my HD-XA2. The video just cuts out briefly, akin to losing its HDMI handshake. It happens really infrequently (maybe on 3 movies that I've watched, both SD-DVD and HD), and occured within the first half hour of the movie.

Since I miss a bit of footage when this happens, I scan back a few scenes, which seems to reestablish the handshake. I'm good to go from that point on, as the movie runs fine without any further hiccups.

It reminds me of the "blanking" issue my Sony BDP-S1 had when I (and a few others) was running HDMI > DVI to my Sony XBR910 TV. Same kind of symptoms, although it occured more often.

I've since purchased an XBR4 TV and a Denon 3808ci AVR, so I'm running HDMI all the way now. That has solved my Blu-ray problem...however, as I mentioned, my HD-XA2 acts up every once in a while.

Thankfully, I've never experienced the cuts out "every 20 seconds for the rest of the movie" syndrome. That would surely be annoying. :(

Alright, I have the AX2 and recently it has started displaying a thin pulsating green line of "sparkles" on the bottom half of my HDTV screen. Its really thin, and seems more prevelent in dark screens, but I have seen it during bright screens. I have switched out HDMI cables with no result, and neither my PS3 or other devices display this issue, so I have narrowed it down to the player. It seems this issue started after the latest update, so I am wondering if this caused it?

NovaKane,

There is no reason why and HDMI to DVI or vice versa connection should not provide a signal transfer equal to having similar connectors at either end. Anyone who believes this does not understand that there is no processing change gong on just a change in physical configuration. The DVI connector of course will not pass the audio. Otherwise, the two connectors provide the same stuff.

DVI

DVI ( Digital Video Interface) is an all digital video standard for transmitting superior uncompressed digital video. DVI uses 3 differential pairs to send digital R,G,B signals. A 4th differential pair is used for clocking the bits at maximum of 165 MHz. 24 bits of pixel color information ( 8 bits each for R,G,B)is transmitted per clock. Further, 2 bits are "stuffed" with the 8 bits to minimize the data transitions. This technique is called transmission minimized differential signaling or T.M.D.S. The aggregate data rate is therefore 10x165MHz = 1.65 Gbps! DVI transmits in native digital ( no A/D conversions) R,G, B format that is ideal for HDTV systems.

HDMI

HDMI ( High Definition Multimedia Interface) is the state of art digital A/V connection that supports uncompressed, all-digital video and audio in a single connection. It is truly the first digital "multi-media" interconnect supporting both digital video and audio.. Fundamentally, HDMI is the same as DVI in video quality. The major difference is that HDMI also supports multi-channel digital audio in the same cable! HDMI transmits in native digital ( no A/D conversions) R,G, B format that is ideal for HDTV systems.

In HDMI connections, the video portion is same as DVI. The main difference is that HDMI also carries multichannel digital audio. DVI only supports video. HDMI is backward compatible with DVI.

The information presented can be found at http://www.octavainc.com/faq.htm.

i just spoke with a toshiba tech support rep and i was told that toshiba DOES NOT have plans to release a FW upgrade for the XA2's to enable HDMI1.3a :(

well this blows! i guess if this is true and a FW upgrade does not get posted on their website within a week the XA2 is going back to BB and ordering the A35 instead.

i just spoke with a toshiba tech support rep and i was told that toshiba DOES NOT have plans to release a FW upgrade for the XA2's to enable HDMI1.3a :(

well this blows! i guess if this is true and a FW upgrade does not get posted on their website within a week the XA2 is going back to BB and ordering the A35 instead.

You are best off buying a player for what it does currently versus one that is supposed to offer the feature(s) you are looking for in a future upgrade. One of the reasons I bought a XA2 originally was on the hopes that it would have 1080p24 output. It's getting close to a year now and the firmware that was just released to enable this is faulty. Still.......waiting. I still love the XA2 but share with many the disappointment about the features that were strongly suggested to be available in a future update that are still unavailable.

Clark,

I returned mine for a BluRay when I learned what the XA2 would not do and after experiencing grepeated lockups within my 30 days. Return it.

Clark,

I returned mine for a BluRay when I learned what the XA2 would not do and after experiencing grepeated lockups within my 30 days. Return it.
What does it not do?

Clark,

I returned mine for a BluRay when I learned what the XA2 would not do and after experiencing grepeated lockups within my 30 days. Return it.

I have not had one problem with my XA2 or Panny BD player maybe you just have bad luck with HD I noticed you have had problems with the Sony 300 also.
Wish you luck.:)

i just spoke with a toshiba tech support rep and i was told that toshiba DOES NOT have plans to release a FW upgrade for the XA2's to enable HDMI1.3a :(

well this blows! i guess if this is true and a FW upgrade does not get posted on their website within a week the XA2 is going back to BB and ordering the A35 instead.

HDMI 1.3a is suppose to be already there Go to their web site and look at the XA2.:)

Yellow Canary,

At the time I purchased mine, the bass redirection and speaker selection portion of the code would not work. I understand it has been fixed subsequently. The XA2 would freeze up requiring an unplug replug. On a beautiful summer's eve, I invited 15 friends to watch a BD movie. The XA2 froze as I turned it on and never started after the unplug/replug. I'd had it. As far as the 300 is concerned, I have not had any "problems" as you stated. I like its picture and the GUI. I am disappointed that there are so few advanced codecs available to process 5.1 audio via bitstream or HDMI. I did not invest over $50K in AV equipment to listen to derived 2 channel sound. I will be replacing the 300 sooner than later for that reason, not because of any performance issues. I should point out that tonight I did experience a single black screen. This follows the firmware upgrade.

Yellow Canary,

At the time I purchased mine, the bass redirection and speaker selection portion of the code would not work. I understand it has been fixed subsequently. The XA2 would freeze up requiring an unplug replug. On a beautiful summer's eve, I invited 15 friends to watch a BD movie. The XA2 froze as I turned it on and never started after the unplug/replug. I'd had it. As far as the 300 is concerned, I have not had any "problems" as you stated. I like its picture and the GUI. I am disappointed that there are so few advanced codecs available to process 5.1 audio via bitstream or HDMI. I did not invest over $50K in AV equipment to listen to derived 2 channel sound. I will be replacing the 300 sooner than later for that reason, not because of any performance issues. I should point out that tonight I did experience a single black screen. This follows the firmware upgrade.

[[I invited 15 friends to watch a BD movie. The XA2 froze as I turned it on and never started after the unplug/replug. I'd had it.]]

It might help not playing BD on the XA2 but of course you know this.:D

After about an hour of playing a movie the XA2 cuts out for a couple seconds and then the movie resumes. Once this starts it does this about every 20 seconds for the rest of the movie. This is obviously very annoying!

Just an idea, don't know if it applies in your case, but I noticed my XA2 doing something like this when playing certain disks that have very minor smudges. Not enough of an error to knock the XA2 off the air entirely with a disk read error, but enough to cause hesitation.

If I cleaned these disks to a pristine condition, no hesitations.

Yellow Canary,

At the time I purchased mine, the bass redirection and speaker selection portion of the code would not work. I understand it has been fixed subsequently. The XA2 would freeze up requiring an unplug replug. On a beautiful summer's eve, I invited 15 friends to watch a BD movie. The XA2 froze as I turned it on and never started after the unplug/replug. I'd had it. As far as the 300 is concerned, I have not had any "problems" as you stated. I like its picture and the GUI. I am disappointed that there are so few advanced codecs available to process 5.1 audio via bitstream or HDMI. I did not invest over $50K in AV equipment to listen to derived 2 channel sound. I will be replacing the 300 sooner than later for that reason, not because of any performance issues. I should point out that tonight I did experience a single black screen. This follows the firmware upgrade.

So the fact the 300 does not process advanced codecs and instead gives you derived 2 channel sound is not a "performance issue?"

Uhhhhhmmm . . . OK. :confused:

HDMI 1.3a is suppose to be already there Go to their web site and look at the XA2.:)

i went to Toshiba's website and all i could find pertaining to HDMI 1.3a (for the XA2) is "Deep Color support specified in HDMI™ 1.3a." but it does not specifically say that the XA2 has 1.3a.

Jgatie,

My differentiation is based on whether a device breaks or not. i think my meaning is quite clear and does not require further clarification. The 300's creators have purposely misled buyers. This is an egregious fault. Hopefully people will learn what the new Sony is all about.

NovaKane,

There is no reason why and HDMI to DVI or vice versa connection should not provide a signal transfer equal to having similar connectors at either end. Anyone who believes this does not understand that there is no processing change gong on just a change in physical configuration. The DVI connector of course will not pass the audio. Otherwise, the two connectors provide the same stuff.

DVI

DVI ( Digital Video Interface) is an all digital video standard for transmitting superior uncompressed digital video. DVI uses 3 differential pairs to send digital R,G,B signals. A 4th differential pair is used for clocking the bits at maximum of 165 MHz. 24 bits of pixel color information ( 8 bits each for R,G,B)is transmitted per clock. Further, 2 bits are "stuffed" with the 8 bits to minimize the data transitions. This technique is called transmission minimized differential signaling or T.M.D.S. The aggregate data rate is therefore 10x165MHz = 1.65 Gbps! DVI transmits in native digital ( no A/D conversions) R,G, B format that is ideal for HDTV systems.

HDMI

HDMI ( High Definition Multimedia Interface) is the state of art digital A/V connection that supports uncompressed, all-digital video and audio in a single connection. It is truly the first digital "multi-media" interconnect supporting both digital video and audio.. Fundamentally, HDMI is the same as DVI in video quality. The major difference is that HDMI also supports multi-channel digital audio in the same cable! HDMI transmits in native digital ( no A/D conversions) R,G, B format that is ideal for HDTV systems.

In HDMI connections, the video portion is same as DVI. The main difference is that HDMI also carries multichannel digital audio. DVI only supports video. HDMI is backward compatible with DVI.

The information presented can be found at http://www.octavainc.com/faq.htm.

That's not the whole story, unfortunately. HDMI is typically a YCbCr format (not RGB)... that's Luminance on 1 wire (pair of wires actually), and 2 color difference signals on the other 2 wires. Many source components can be set to output RGB so that RGB will travel over the HDMI output and arrive at the DVI end of the cable in the correct format. There are 2 types of RGB though... 16-235 is used for DVI devices while 0-254 (or 1-255) is used for PC-oriented products. So if the source component is going to a DVI interface on a display, the source sould be set to RGB 16-235.

But even that is not the whole story... when DVI interfaces, first appeared, HDCP (High Definition Content Protection, a new layer of digital rights management) did not exist. New HDMI-equipped sources and late DVI products are all HDCP aware and mostly they are pretty good with the handshaking. But early DVI products had no awareness of HDCP at all. So the older the DVI-equippped product is, the more likely it is to have problems when connecting to HDMI source components because of not being HDCP compliant. I don't know of any good way to resolve this unless there are newer video processors that are fine on their inputs and will just send the DVI RGB out with the HDCP missing or ignored. Getting a newer display also solves the problem... expensively.

maxdb,

What you offer is certainly true but it is true for both HDMI and DVI connectors. The type of connector does not matter.

maxdb,

What you offer is certainly true but it is true for both HDMI and DVI connectors. The type of connector does not matter.


??? All HDMI is HDCP aware so handshaking issues should be zero if the components on both ends of the connection did their jobs right. HDMI to HDMI is YCbCr.

DVI to DVI may or may not have problems because one end could be HDCP aware and the other end NOT aware (early DVI product). This is an RGB format.

HDMI source to DVI display... this should work fine provided the DVI product is HDCP aware. A translation has to take place though because HDMI is normally YCbCr but many source components let you change to RGB 16-235 so the DVI display gets what it needs.

The "type of connector" isn't and never was the issue... the issue is whether or not the DVI device is new enough to be HDCP aware AND when an HDMI source is feeding a DVI display, can the SOURCE be switched from YCbCr to RGB 16-235. It is the interface behind the connector that causes the issues - and "progress". I didn't say anywhere that the connector was any sort of issue, but whenever a DVI connector is present, there's a possibility of problems. For 2 products connected by HDMI, there shouldn't ever be problems - but I'm sure SOMEBODY out there has produced an HDMI product that doesn't play well with others. Those situations should be rare though.

i went to Toshiba's website and all i could find pertaining to HDMI 1.3a (for the XA2) is "Deep Color support specified in HDMI™ 1.3a." but it does not specifically say that the XA2 has 1.3a.

Even tho Deep Color is a long way off I do not think you can have Deep Color with out HDMI 1.3a:)

the issue is whether or not the DVI device is new enough to be HDCP aware AND when an HDMI source is feeding a DVI display, can the SOURCE be switched from YCbCr to RGB 16-235.

...or the receiver (TV/MONITOR). I have a Fujitsu P50 plasma that's almost 5 years old now, and it did come with DVI (HDCP compliant), and the DVI input can be configured for either YCbCr or RGB 16-235. Never thought it was worth anything until I got my first HDMI source. Sometimes you just luck out.

Edit: I'm not sure if it is near 5 or 4 years old now that I think about it. I need to check.

Even tho Deep Color is a long way off I do not think you can have Deep Color with out HDMI 1.3a:)

You can if you have Sony products that support extended color... some HD video cameras and some video displays with HDMI 1.2. Enable their extended color mode (xvColor) in the camera and you can see the extended color range on the display. Other companies could have done the same thing. HDMI 1.2 is not a limitation for this - something else may be going on, but 1.3 isn't some huge magical thing.

HDMI 1.3 information is SO SCREWED UP it is hard to believe. Even if you go to the "source" (www.hdmi.org (http://www.hdmi.org)) and look at their FAQ for 1.3, THEY HAVE PUBLISHED FALSE INFORMATION ABOUT THEIR OWN INTERFACE.

For example, they say in the FAQ that 1.3 enables 10, 12, and 16 bits per color... and they imply that HDMI 1.2 was limited to 8 bits per color. That's absolutely WRONG - you can see in their own SPECS that HDMI 1.2 and 1.1 will support 4:4:4 which is impossible if the format is limited to 8 bits per color. So you can't even trust hdmi.org to be accurate about their own interface. :confused:

HDMI 1.3 does enable transporting TrueHD and DTS-HD MA over HDMI... it is true 1.1 and 1.2 HDMI would not support that. But 1.3 doesn't guarantee the manufacturer built-in that capability! There are Gen 2 players with 1.3 that STILL don't support DTS-HD MA over HDMI (Sony BDP-S500 for example, possibly others - of course this assumes Sony's information about their product is correct on their website - they could have posted incorrect info.)

^^ Haha! Well said.

So when is HDMI going to SIMPLIFY home theater?

It's simplified mine slightly. When I hung my projector, I pulled wires for every input on the projector except the SVideo.

http://www.fast351.com/hometheater/ProjectorInstall/images/img_1716.jpg

That's a component set, an HDMI, a DVI and a composite cable. The two digital links were easier to pull than the 6 component cables to replace them would have been when I did it.

I understand what you're saying though. HDMI was touted as transporting all digital media flawlessly. So far very few things about HDMI are flawless. Most HDMI receivers can't take the advanced audio formats in on the link, and even the PCM is problematic.

Someday they'll get it right, and it'll be called HDMI v2.0 :)

Apologies if this has been posted before - the forum search doesn't seem to like the phrase "4:3". I'm going to use the terms "Full Frame" "Full Screen", and "Academy Ratio" in this sentence to make this post searchable in the future.

I have an old HDTV (RCA F38310) that has very few display options. It displays 480i signals in either 4:3 with gray pillar bars, stretched to 16:9, or zoomed&cropped to 16:9. It displays 480p and 1080i signals at 16:9 only with no zooming options, and doesn't support 720p.

However, my 1080i HD-A2 looks beautiful on it, as does HD satellite and OTA HD. It's great until I try to watch a DVD that is authored in 4:3 mode - specifically, I'm trying to watch "It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia".

Since it's an SDDVD, its output is limited to 480p. (My TV only has component in, no HDMI.) However, the output is *not* pillarboxed, despite the fact that I've told the A2 that my TV is 16:9. In their normal operating modes, I have found no way to get the player and TV to display 4:3 content correctly.

So, my actual question: does the A2 pillarbox?

For now, I'm manually setting the output to 480i when I watch 4:3 content. I've considered also connecting the TV via SVideo and setting up my Harmony remote to have a separate "Watch Full Frame DVD" activity. Any other suggestions?

You can choose pillarbox or stretch via HDMI, but it is stretch only via component. Another reason why I "convinced" myself to upgrade my display (as if I needed convincing).

<snip>....HDMI source to DVI display... this should work fine provided the DVI product is HDCP aware. A translation has to take place though because HDMI is normally YCbCr but many source components let you change to RGB 16-235 so the DVI display gets what it needs.

The "type of connector" isn't and never was the issue... the issue is whether or not the DVI device is new enough to be HDCP aware AND when an HDMI source is feeding a DVI display, can the SOURCE be switched from YCbCr to RGB 16-235. It is the interface behind the connector that causes the issues - and "progress". I didn't say anywhere that the connector was any sort of issue, but whenever a DVI connector is present, there's a possibility of problems. For 2 products connected by HDMI, there shouldn't ever be problems - but I'm sure SOMEBODY out there has produced an HDMI product that doesn't play well with others. Those situations should be rare though.
Please pardon me for jumping in but this conversation seems related to my problem with HDMI-DVI.

I just bought a Toshiba HD-A2 and upgraded to the 2.5 firmware. It won't maintain video through the HDMI to DVI connection on my HDTV (An RCA D34W20 I think).

The TV's manual, says the signal speed is 1080i at 1.68 Gigabits per second and mentions HDCP.

Everything starts out fine with a good HD picture but after a minute or so the video quits. It does this on HD DVDs (The Matrix, and Transformers) and also on standard dvds (Open Range, SNG Nemesis).

Everything works fine on component but of course I then loose the ability to up convert all my std dvds and in fact have to manually reduce the resolution
setting in the A2 to 480p to even see them.

I've tried a straight HDMI to DVI converter cable and also a brand new HDMI cable into a brand new HEMI to DVI adapter.

Is it likely my particular A-2 is defective or will another have the same problem?

Thanks

Please pardon me for jumping in but this conversation seems related to my problem with HDMI-DVI.

I just bought a Toshiba HD-A2 and upgraded to the 2.5 firmware. It won't maintain video through the HDMI to DVI connection on my HDTV (An RCA D34W20 I think).

The TV's manual, says the signal speed is 1080i at 1.68 Gigabits per second and mentions HDCP.

Everything starts out fine with a good HD picture but after a minute or so the video quits. It does this on HD DVDs (The Matrix, and Transformers) and also on standard dvds (Open Range, SNG Nemesis).

Everything works fine on component but of course I then loose the ability to up convert all my std dvds and in fact have to manually reduce the resolution
setting in the A2 to 480p to even see them.

I've tried a straight HDMI to DVI converter cable and also a brand new HDMI cable into a brand new HEMI to DVI adapter.

Is it likely my particular A-2 is defective or will another have the same problem?

Thanks My first check would be to see if the RCA is HDMI compliant on the DVI input.

i'm chompin' at the bit to get either an a2 or xa2 but only if they'll work w my panny pj w hdcp compliant dvi input. does anyone know for sure if they'll work properly (hdmi to dvi)? ive read here at avs that firmware has addressed some of the issues but nothing seems 'concrete'. ive been reading many of the last several posts on the subject, it almost looks like my pj would work w a2/xa2. i guess ill just have to get one and try it. others knowledge/experience-comments welcome.

Please pardon me for jumping in but this conversation seems related to my problem with HDMI-DVI.

I just bought a Toshiba HD-A2 and upgraded to the 2.5 firmware. It won't maintain video through the HDMI to DVI connection on my HDTV (An RCA D34W20 I think).

The TV's manual, says the signal speed is 1080i at 1.68 Gigabits per second and mentions HDCP.

Everything starts out fine with a good HD picture but after a minute or so the video quits. It does this on HD DVDs (The Matrix, and Transformers) and also on standard dvds (Open Range, SNG Nemesis).

Everything works fine on component but of course I then loose the ability to up convert all my std dvds and in fact have to manually reduce the resolution
setting in the A2 to 480p to even see them.

I've tried a straight HDMI to DVI converter cable and also a brand new HDMI cable into a brand new HEMI to DVI adapter.

Is it likely my particular A-2 is defective or will another have the same problem?I have a year 2002 vintage RCA Scenium 34" direct view CRT. Yes the DVI connection mentions HDCP -- but I have never got it to work with a XA2 or a XA1 (all firmware versions) except for non-AACS discs (those work). Actually the component video connection on the display is better performing (quality wise) than the DVI anyway for me. But then I have to use a "backup" SD DVD to get upscaling to 1080i.

IMO the component video connection is better than DVI when using a XA2 because the 297 Mhz/12 bit Video DAC with 4x oversampling is superior to the one used in/with the Scenium's DVI connection.

Does anyone have any idea when the passthrough update for the XA2 is coming out?

Please pardon me for jumping in but this conversation seems related to my problem with HDMI-DVI.

I just bought a Toshiba HD-A2 and upgraded to the 2.5 firmware. It won't maintain video through the HDMI to DVI connection on my HDTV (An RCA D34W20 I think).

The TV's manual, says the signal speed is 1080i at 1.68 Gigabits per second and mentions HDCP.

Everything starts out fine with a good HD picture but after a minute or so the video quits. It does this on HD DVDs (The Matrix, and Transformers) and also on standard dvds (Open Range, SNG Nemesis).

Everything works fine on component but of course I then loose the ability to up convert all my std dvds and in fact have to manually reduce the resolution
setting in the A2 to 480p to even see them.

I've tried a straight HDMI to DVI converter cable and also a brand new HDMI cable into a brand new HEMI to DVI adapter.

Is it likely my particular A-2 is defective or will another have the same problem?

Thanks

I'd say there's a 99% chance there is noting wrong with your A2. After reading my original post, you should have been able to answer your own question. When it comes to HDMI to DVI playing well together, 99% of the responsiblity goes to the DVI-equipped component. If it is OLD DVI, it won't no ANYTHING about HDCP and you probably will get nothing or very sporadic images. Later DVI that does know about HDCP (which is a standard part of the HDMI specification) ranges from "perfect" to "annoyingly flakey". Primarily because early implemenations of HDCP were not necessarily as well debugged as it has come to be in later products. You really probably need to move the old display to some other room and get a brand new HDMI 1080p display of some sort to eliminate the problems.

I just exchanged the A 30 for the XA-2 at BB and was assured that the HD audio codecs would come right thru, but like on the A-30 all I get is 5.1 PCM. I upgraded the firmware to 2.5 hoping that would help the audio problem (if it is a problem), and did get 1080p 24FPS (which my Samsung LCD will display)
but I just can't get the lights on my Yamaha 3800 1.3a compliant AV receiver for DTHD or anything else to go. When I push the display button on the remote it says Dolby THD and the HDMI audio out is bitstream. I have a Sammy BDP 1400 that I upgraded the firmware on and DTS Master HD and every other codec comes thru fine.

Do I have a problem? All HDMI interconnects are of very high (i.e. expensive) quality, and there is nothing wrong with any of them as I have swapped the cables for my 2 players and the BR player audio works fine on a cheap cable or my expensive cable. The same swap with Tosh HDDVD only gives me PCM.

Stumped.

Thanks much.

Carter D

This has more than likely been covered already, but I am curious if the XA2 is capable of passing bitstream TrueHD/DD Plus over HDMI. I am soon going to be replacing my Sunfire TGIII pre/pro with a Denon AVP-A1HD pre/pro that has onboard decoding for all the new audio codecs.

Thanks.:)

There is an update coming in November to enable that feature

Hi Dennis,

Does this update apply to my question above?

Thanks much.


Carter D

There is an update coming in November to enable that feature

How do you know the update is coming in November?

Hi Dennis,

Does this update apply to my question above?

Thanks much.


Carter D

Yep.

Thank you!

How do you know the update is coming in November?

Fortune Cookie.

I just exchanged the A 30 for the XA-2 at BB and was assured that the HD audio codecs would come right thru, but like on the A-30 all I get is 5.1 PCM. I upgraded the firmware to 2.5 hoping that would help the audio problem (if it is a problem), and did get 1080p 24FPS (which my Samsung LCD will display)
but I just can't get the lights on my Yamaha 3800 1.3a compliant AV receiver for DTHD or anything else to go. When I push the display button on the remote it says Dolby THD and the HDMI audio out is bitstream. I have a Sammy BDP 1400 that I upgraded the firmware on and DTS Master HD and every other codec comes thru fine.

Do I have a problem? All HDMI interconnects are of very high (i.e. expensive) quality, and there is nothing wrong with any of them as I have swapped the cables for my 2 players and the BR player audio works fine on a cheap cable or my expensive cable. The same swap with Tosh HDDVD only gives me PCM.

Stumped.

Thanks much.

Carter D

The alleged November firmware update is supposed to allow bitstream audio but it does not as of yet. Right now the player is decoding codecs and outputting them as PCM.

As far as I know the A35 is the only HD DVD player that outputs Bitstream. I don't think that it outputs DTS HD MA yet though.

I just exchanged the A 30 for the XA-2 at BB and was assured that the HD audio codecs would come right thru, but like on the A-30 all I get is 5.1 PCM. I upgraded the firmware to 2.5 hoping that would help the audio problem (if it is a problem), and did get 1080p 24FPS (which my Samsung LCD will display)
but I just can't get the lights on my Yamaha 3800 1.3a compliant AV receiver for DTHD or anything else to go. When I push the display button on the remote it says Dolby THD and the HDMI audio out is bitstream. I have a Sammy BDP 1400 that I upgraded the firmware on and DTS Master HD and every other codec comes thru fine.

Do I have a problem? All HDMI interconnects are of very high (i.e. expensive) quality, and there is nothing wrong with any of them as I have swapped the cables for my 2 players and the BR player audio works fine on a cheap cable or my expensive cable. The same swap with Tosh HDDVD only gives me PCM.

Stumped.

Thanks much.

Carter D

This issue has been covered so many times it's rediculous. PCM is THE mode where all the audio processing is done. DDPlus, TrueHD, and the 2 flavors of DTS-HD are just vacuum packed pretty packages that allow you to move the "sound" from one place to another in less space. All of those packages have to be opened and re-constituted (decoded and converted to PCM) before the processor can do anything with the audio (bass management, level matching, compensating for speaker distances, etc. It does not matter WHERE the DDPlus/TrueHD/DTS-HD is decoded... if it is decoded in the player, the player sends PCM or lossless PCM over HDMI to the processor/AVR where all the processing is done. It doesn't matter AT ALL whether the data going over the HDMI cable is decoded (in PCM format) or still encoded in the DDPlus, TrueHD, or either DTS-HD format. Your results will be the same every time unless the processor is better at decoding than the player (which is unlikely right now because everything is using pretty much the same stuff for decoding.

So when your player says 5.1 PCM - if you have selected a DDPlus or DTS-HD HR soundtrack, you will get somewhat lossy audio quality from the decoded soundtrack no matter wheter it is the player or AVR/processor that did the decoding. If you have selected a TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track on the disc, you will get uncompressed 5.1 PCM (or possibly even uncompressed 7.1 - again, that can be decoded in the player and sent out HDMI as uncompressed multi-channel PCM or in some of the newer players, it can be sent undecoded over HDMI to the AVR/processor. In either case, your end result is likely to be the same so there's nothing to get annoyed about.

Maybe there's an update coming (and maybe not - hate to speculate until something actually appears) that will allow HDMI to carry the advanced codecs without decoding them first... maybe not. But you are unlikely to hear any difference whether the player is sending PCM or an undecoded advanced codec.

I'm not sure returning the A-30 accomplished anything - you're probably getting the same results either way (A-30 or XA2).

This issue has been covered so many times it's rediculous. PCM is THE mode where all the audio processing is done. DDPlus, TrueHD, and the 2 flavors of DTS-HD are just vacuum packed pretty packages that allow you to move the "sound" from one place to another in less space. All of those packages have to be opened and re-constituted (decoded and converted to PCM) before the processor can do anything with the audio (bass management, level matching, compensating for speaker distances, etc. It does not matter WHERE the DDPlus/TrueHD/DTS-HD is decoded... if it is decoded in the player, the player sends PCM or lossless PCM over HDMI to the processor/AVR where all the processing is done. It doesn't matter AT ALL whether the data going over the HDMI cable is decoded (in PCM format) or still encoded in the DDPlus, TrueHD, or either DTS-HD format. Your results will be the same every time unless the processor is better at decoding than the player (which is unlikely right now because everything is using pretty much the same stuff for decoding.

So when your player says 5.1 PCM - if you have selected a DDPlus or DTS-HD HR soundtrack, you will get somewhat lossy audio quality from the decoded soundtrack no matter wheter it is the player or AVR/processor that did the decoding. If you have selected a TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track on the disc, you will get uncompressed 5.1 PCM (or possibly even uncompressed 7.1 - again, that can be decoded in the player and sent out HDMI as uncompressed multi-channel PCM or in some of the newer players, it can be sent undecoded over HDMI to the AVR/processor. In either case, your end result is likely to be the same so there's nothing to get annoyed about.

Maybe there's an update coming (and maybe not - hate to speculate until something actually appears) that will allow HDMI to carry the advanced codecs without decoding them first... maybe not. But you are unlikely to hear any difference whether the player is sending PCM or an undecoded advanced codec.

I'm not sure returning the A-30 accomplished anything - you're probably getting the same results either way (A-30 or XA2).
Thanks Max,

Sorry if this has been covered before, but I'm a newbie to BR and HDDVD and your post was very helpful.

Thank you again.

Carter D

So maxdb, how do I get the pretty "TrueHD" light to light up on my shiny new Onkyo receiver? :D

Howdy,

I just talked to Toshiba about my lousy XA2 (can you tell I am unhappy with it??) and they say there will not be a firmware upgrade to allow it to pass TrueHD and Master Audio via bitstream to a receiver. So do I now have a machine that shuts off at random and will not handle the codecs as I hoped? Anyone have info on this? Thank,

Howdy,

I just talked to Toshiba about my lousy XA2 (can you tell I am unhappy with it??) and they say there will not be a firmware upgrade to allow it to pass TrueHD and Master Audio via bitstream to a receiver. So do I now have a machine that shuts off at random and will not handle the codecs as I hoped? Anyone have info on this? Thank,

How exactly does it "not handle the codecs as (you) hoped?" It handles the codecs perfectly fine, just like 90% of the other HD DVD players and 100% of the Blu-Ray players. Could it be that your "hopes" are not in synch with reality? Or that you really want an HD-A35 and chose the wrong player?

Howdy,

I just talked to Toshiba about my lousy XA2 (can you tell I am unhappy with it??) and they say there will not be a firmware upgrade to allow it to pass TrueHD and Master Audio via bitstream to a receiver. So do I now have a machine that shuts off at random and will not handle the codecs as I hoped? Anyone have info on this? Thank,


Did you keep track of the Toshiba telephone number you dialed and who you spoke to? If so, please provide that information.

[QUOTE=Jgatie;11990376]How exactly does it "not handle the codecs as (you) hoped?" It handles the codecs perfectly fine, just like 90% of the other HD DVD players and 100% of the Blu-Ray players. Could it be that your "hopes" are not in synch with reality? Or that you really want an HD-A35 and chose the wrong player?[/QUOTE

If you can't answer the question in a civil manner just shut your yap and don't be an *******.

Did you keep track of the Toshiba telephone number you dialed and who you spoke to? If so, please provide that information.

800-631-3811 Talked to a guy named James. Then I talked to a gal but don't recall her name.

[QUOTE=Jgatie;11990376]How exactly does it "not handle the codecs as (you) hoped?" It handles the codecs perfectly fine, just like 90% of the other HD DVD players and 100% of the Blu-Ray players. Could it be that your "hopes" are not in synch with reality? Or that you really want an HD-A35 and chose the wrong player?[/QUOTE

If you can't answer the question in a civil manner just shut your yap and don't be an *******.

Actually that answer is on the money. The XA2 does what HD-DVD players are supposed to: decode the TrueHD soundtrack, mix in secondary audio if necessary, and output PCM. DTS-HD MA support would be nice (though it is barely used), but if that happens, it will most be an internal decoder, not bitstream output.

[QUOTE=Jgatie;11990376]How exactly does it "not handle the codecs as (you) hoped?" It handles the codecs perfectly fine, just like 90% of the other HD DVD players and 100% of the Blu-Ray players. Could it be that your "hopes" are not in synch with reality? Or that you really want an HD-A35 and chose the wrong player?[/QUOTE

If you can't answer the question in a civil manner just shut your yap and don't be an *******.

I assure you my questions are legitimate and I was not trying to be an "*******". Seriously, 90% of all HD DVD players decode and then pass the audio via LPCM. The only one that does what you want is the A-35. You "hoping" the 2nd generation XA2 does it like the 3rd generation A-35 is not the fault of Toshiba, especially when there is ample information here that it was not the case. Blaming the player for doing exactly what it is advertised and designed to do, but not what you "hoped" it to do is hardly a cause for anger at the manufacturer. Granted, you may have a legitimate gripe for other issues, but not knowing the features and capabilities is all on you (and getting pissy at me for pointing that out it is no more fair than getting pissy at Toshiba for not designing it to your "hopes").

PS - If you can point out any place I've been incorrect or have mislead you, please feel free to let the "*******" accusations fly. Until then, I'll appreciate you keeping things civil (as I thought I had before).

Today, I decided to call Toshiba regarding some concerns with the XA2.

I left a message for Jodi Sally, Vice President of Marketing, Toshiba America Consumer Products @ 973-628-8000 (her voice mail stated she was out of the office for the day): Her name appears in most of the press releases concerning Toshiba's HD-DVD player releases. The question I left was concerning Toshiba's position on High Bitrate Audio support for the HD-XA2 and of course I left my telephone number. I doubt she will return my call.

I also called 800-631-3811 and used the option for Sales. I was transferred to Jeff (Employee ID #25551) in Customer Support/Service (not Sales), located in Eastern Iowa.

From our conversation:
Toshiba is aware of the HBR feature requests and problems with some people (as he said) using 1080p/24. After putting me on hold for a few minutes, here's what he told me:

No confirmation that HBR will be added or confirmation that a XA2 player problem exists concerning 1080p/24. He did state that he is aware of the speculation (though he did not say from where) that HBR will be supported in the future.

I also asked if the XA2 is being discontinued. His answer was that the XA2 is currently Toshiba's Flagship HD-DVD player.



Basically, I heard what I thought I would hear from a Toshiba employee at his level. IMO, best bet would be to speak with the Product's Manager(s) or Company Executives or just wait and see....

Most likely time wasted on this post, but I had the time. :D


.S

There is an update coming in November to enable that feature

That would be awesome! I know that many have said that the sound whether decoded by the player or by the pre/pro will ultimately be the same. But for me, it would just be kind of nice to be able to actually use the decoding in the pre/pro. But if an update never appears then PCM via HDMI is really good too.:)

Thanks for that bit of info.:)

Maybe Robert from VE can jump in here about all this since he was on here all the time with info when the XA2 was the main seller and a Toshiba insider.

Toshiba has said it will upgrade the player to allow the bitstreaming of the advanced codecs. hddvd.org ran an article on this a few weeks ago. The update is coming. Be patient.

Toshiba has said it will upgrade the player to allow the bitstreaming of the advanced codecs. hddvd.org ran an article on this a few weeks ago. The update is coming. Be patient.

Must be the same thing I saw in the beginning of this month at:

http://www.dvdtown.com/news/toshiba-confirms-audio-bit-stream-upgrade/4792


I wish he would of quoted the specific source.

EDIT: I asked Henning: "This comes from Toshiba PR who asked Toshiba on behalf of DVDTOWN.com."

[QUOTE=PeterDI;11990705]

I assure you my questions are legitimate and I was not trying to be an "*******". Seriously, 90% of all HD DVD players decode and then pass the audio via LPCM. The only one that does what you want is the A-35. You "hoping" the 2nd generation XA2 does it like the 3rd generation A-35 is not the fault of Toshiba, especially when there is ample information here that it was not the case. Blaming the player for doing exactly what it is advertised and designed to do, but not what you "hoped" it to do is hardly a cause for anger at the manufacturer. Granted, you may have a legitimate gripe for other issues, but not knowing the features and capabilities is all on you (and getting pissy at me for pointing that out it is no more fair than getting pissy at Toshiba for not designing it to your "hopes").

PS - If you can point out any place I've been incorrect or have mislead you, please feel free to let the "*******" accusations fly. Until then, I'll appreciate you keeping things civil (as I thought I had before).

My "hope" was that there would be an upgrade to pass the audio via bitstream to a receiver to decode TrueHD AND MAster Audio. Currently it decodes the Truehd Internally and sends it to the receiver as PCM. Which would be identical in sound to the receiver doing the decoding. It only does the DTS core internally. Not true MA. My "hope" was that the much rumored firmware upgrade would allow the bitstream of MA to the receiver. They have told me it would not though there are articles which attest to the contrary.SO, I knew what it could do and not do but bought it for it's video prowess AND with anticipation of said upgrade. The video up conversion for standard DVDs is spectacular. That it randomly shuts off or reboots is rather a pain. And I do have the 2.5 firmware on it. Get it now? Perhaps if you would have taken a second to understand what I was saying you can see why your response came across as condescending. I knew out of the box it would not do it. My dismay is being told there would be no firmware to pass the bitstream AND the shut off problem.

[QUOTE=Jgatie;11990376]How exactly does it "not handle the codecs as (you) hoped?" It handles the codecs perfectly fine, just like 90% of the other HD DVD players and 100% of the Blu-Ray players. Could it be that your "hopes" are not in synch with reality? Or that you really want an HD-A35 and chose the wrong player?[/QUOTE

If you can't answer the question in a civil manner just shut your yap and don't be an *******.
U TELL'EM!!!

So maxdb, how do I get the pretty "TrueHD" light to light up on my shiny new Onkyo receiver? :D

You have to get one of the newest Blu-ray or HD-DVD players that are capable of sending TrueHD over the HDMI cable to an AVR.

But just because that light isn't lit, doesn't mean you aren't hearing TrueHD. If your player decodes TrueHD in the player (these Toshibas do), you get uncompressed PCM out the HDMI cable to the AVR. You'll get the same sound quality that way as you would if the player sent TrueHD to the AVR. But because the audio is already decoded in the player, the AVR doesn't know it USED TO BE TrueHD so the light doesn't light up... even though the audio really is TrueHD... decoded to uncompressed PCM.

Again, DDPlus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD HR & MA are just wrappers with the data vacuum packed inside. They are essentially worthless as they exist and the only reason they exist is to make digital audio take up less space (on the disc or moving down wires). AVRs/processors do NOTHING with audio data in those formats except IMMEDIATELY decode it to PCM (same thing the players do right now). Once the data is in PCM format, the AVR/processor does all the "tricks" - balances the channels per your setup measurements (or internal automatic calibrations), compensates for speakers being different distances, etc.

So right now, you are losing NOTHING by not having the TrueHD light "off" on the AVR... as long as your set to output PCM via HDMI and you select a TrueHD soundtrack on the disc, you WILL get TrueHD sound even without the TrueHD light being lit on the AVR.

I know, I know. I was being facetious. I guess the :D didn't translate. :(

You have to get one of the newest Blu-ray or HD-DVD players that are capable of sending TrueHD over the HDMI cable to an AVR.

But just because that light isn't lit, doesn't mean you aren't hearing TrueHD. If your player decodes TrueHD in the player (these Toshibas do), you get uncompressed PCM out the HDMI cable to the AVR. You'll get the same sound quality that way as you would if the player sent TrueHD to the AVR. But because the audio is already decoded in the player, the AVR doesn't know it USED TO BE TrueHD so the light doesn't light up... even though the audio really is TrueHD... decoded to uncompressed PCM.

Again, DDPlus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD HR & MA are just wrappers with the data vacuum packed inside. They are essentially worthless as they exist and the only reason they exist is to make digital audio take up less space (on the disc or moving down wires). AVRs/processors do NOTHING with audio data in those formats except IMMEDIATELY decode it to PCM (same thing the players do right now). Once the data is in PCM format, the AVR/processor does all the "tricks" - balances the channels per your setup measurements (or internal automatic calibrations), compensates for speakers being different distances, etc.

So right now, you are losing NOTHING by not having the TrueHD light "off" on the AVR... as long as your set to output PCM via HDMI and you select a TrueHD soundtrack on the disc, you WILL get TrueHD sound even without the TrueHD light being lit on the AVR.

Nice explination. If the trueHD is decoded to PCM in the XA2, does this mean we have to rely on the XA2's processing of things like speaker position/level, and *most importantly* audio delay for lip sync? Does the XA2 have all these adjustments? I can understand why someone might want to do this post processing in their AVR instead just for the flexibility of adjustments.

Another question,
I can't use the HDMI audio option because I don't yet own an AVR that will accept HDMI audio input, so I am stuck with either 6 ch analog or TOSLINK. Of course I can not use the 6 ch audio because there is no way to add delay and this makes the movies unwatchable imho. I have been happy using the optical TOSLINK. Now I assume that in this case the XA2 is decoding whatever audio compression format is on the disk to PCM, and then re-encoding this PCM to another multiplexed format that gets sent over TOSLINK. Question: is this re-encoding lossy or still equivalent to full-rate PCM? I think it is lossy. Are any of the XA2's audio settings applicable to the case where the optical output is being used?

Thanks,
Rich

Originally Posted by maxdb
This issue has been covered so many times it's rediculous. PCM is THE mode where all the audio processing is done. DDPlus, TrueHD, and the 2 flavors of DTS-HD are just vacuum packed pretty packages that allow you to move the "sound" from one place to another in less space. All of those packages have to be opened and re-constituted (decoded and converted to PCM) before the processor can do anything with the audio (bass management, level matching, compensating for speaker distances, etc. It does not matter WHERE the DDPlus/TrueHD/DTS-HD is decoded... if it is decoded in the player, the player sends PCM or lossless PCM over HDMI to the processor/AVR where all the processing is done. It doesn't matter AT ALL whether the data going over the HDMI cable is decoded (in PCM format) or still encoded in the DDPlus, TrueHD, or either DTS-HD format. Your results will be the same every time unless the processor is better at decoding than the player (which is unlikely right now because everything is using pretty much the same stuff for decoding.

So when your player says 5.1 PCM - if you have selected a DDPlus or DTS-HD HR soundtrack, you will get somewhat lossy audio quality from the decoded soundtrack no matter wheter it is the player or AVR/processor that did the decoding. If you have selected a TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track on the disc, you will get uncompressed 5.1 PCM (or possibly even uncompressed 7.1 - again, that can be decoded in the player and sent out HDMI as uncompressed multi-channel PCM or in some of the newer players, it can be sent undecoded over HDMI to the AVR/processor. In either case, your end result is likely to be the same so there's nothing to get annoyed about.

Maybe there's an update coming (and maybe not - hate to speculate until something actually appears) that will allow HDMI to carry the advanced codecs without decoding them first... maybe not. But you are unlikely to hear any difference whether the player is sending PCM or an undecoded advanced codec.

I'm not sure returning the A-30 accomplished anything - you're probably getting the same results either way (A-30 or XA2).

Originally Posted by maxdb
This issue has been covered so many times it's rediculous. PCM is THE mode where all the audio processing is done. DDPlus, TrueHD, and the 2 flavors of DTS-HD are just vacuum packed pretty packages that allow you to move the "sound" from one place to another in less space. All of those packages have to be opened and re-constituted (decoded and converted to PCM) before the processor can do anything with the audio (bass management, level matching, compensating for speaker distances, etc. It does not matter WHERE the DDPlus/TrueHD/DTS-HD is decoded... if it is decoded in the player, the player sends PCM or lossless PCM over HDMI to the processor/AVR where all the processing is done. It doesn't matter AT ALL whether the data going over the HDMI cable is decoded (in PCM format) or still encoded in the DDPlus, TrueHD, or either DTS-HD format. Your results will be the same every time unless the processor is better at decoding than the player (which is unlikely right now because everything is using pretty much the same stuff for decoding.

So when your player says 5.1 PCM - if you have selected a DDPlus or DTS-HD HR soundtrack, you will get somewhat lossy audio quality from the decoded soundtrack no matter wheter it is the player or AVR/processor that did the decoding. If you have selected a TrueHD or DTS-HD MA track on the disc, you will get uncompressed 5.1 PCM (or possibly even uncompressed 7.1 - again, that can be decoded in the player and sent out HDMI as uncompressed multi-channel PCM or in some of the newer players, it can be sent undecoded over HDMI to the AVR/processor. In either case, your end result is likely to be the same so there's nothing to get annoyed about.

Maybe there's an update coming (and maybe not - hate to speculate until something actually appears) that will allow HDMI to carry the advanced codecs without decoding them first... maybe not. But you are unlikely to hear any difference whether the player is sending PCM or an undecoded advanced codec.

I'm not sure returning the A-30 accomplished anything - you're probably getting the same results either way (A-30 or XA2).

xbr2man,
Why are you quoting maxdb's post from yesterday here? Are you saying there is an answer to my questions in there somewhere. I had already read his post. I agree with what he wrote. Maybe I'm not seeing some connection.

Rich

Nice explination. If the trueHD is decoded to PCM in the XA2, does this mean we have to rely on the XA2's processing of things like speaker position/level, and *most importantly* audio delay for lip sync? Does the XA2 have all these adjustments? I can understand why someone might want to do this post processing in their AVR instead just for the flexibility of adjustments.


No, you do not have to do any speaker setup or bass management at the player when using HDMI audio, the receiver should handle the LPCM the exact same way, regardless of whether the player or the A/V receiver did the decoding. The speaker and bass management settings are strictly for the analog outs (which is mhy my A2 has none of these settings).


Another question,
I can't use the HDMI audio option because I don't yet own an AVR that will accept HDMI audio input, so I am stuck with either 6 ch analog or TOSLINK. Of course I can not use the 6 ch audio because there is no way to add delay and this makes the movies unwatchable imho. I have been happy using the optical TOSLINK. Now I assume that in this case the XA2 is decoding whatever audio compression format is on the disk to PCM, and then re-encoding this PCM to another multiplexed format that gets sent over TOSLINK. Question: is this re-encoding lossy or still equivalent to full-rate PCM? I think it is lossy. Are any of the XA2's audio settings applicable to the case where the optical output is being used?

Thanks,
Rich

The SPDIF spec does not allow for LPCM or undecoded HD Bitstream to be passed via the optical. Thus, the re-encoding is lossy, specifically 640k DD, which is less than the 1.5Mbs DTS used in the A2 and A20. The XA2 really was meant to be used with analog or HDMI audio. And just like the HDMI, none of the speaker/bass settings are applicable to the optical out.

No, you do not have to do any speaker setup or bass management at the player when using HDMI audio, the receiver should handle the LPCM the exact same way, regardless of whether the player or the A/V receiver did the decoding. The speaker and bass management settings are strictly for the analog outs (which is mhy my A2 has none of these settings).



The SPDIF spec does not allow for LPCM or undecoded HD Bitstream to be passed via the optical. Thus, the re-encoding is lossy, specifically 640k DD, which is less than the 1.5Mbs DTS used in the A2 and A20. The XA2 really was meant to be used with analog or HDMI audio. And just like the HDMI, none of the speaker/bass settings are applicable to the optical out.

Thanks. Great answer. So I guess it's time to start looking to buy an AVR with HDMI input. Is there still no audio delay adjustment for the analog output on the XA2? How can anyone use it without delay? Is anyone using it?

Is there still no audio delay adjustment for the analog output on the XA2? How can anyone use it without delay? Is anyone using it?No extra audio delay. There are speaker distance settings but that is a minor adjustment. Those of us without large delays in the video display get by without adding audio delay. When I use S/PDIF on occasion from the XA2 my AVR is not set to add any audio delay (which it could). Works for me. YMMV

You have to get one of the newest Blu-ray or HD-DVD players that are capable of sending TrueHD over the HDMI cable to an AVR.

But just because that light isn't lit, doesn't mean you aren't hearing TrueHD. If your player decodes TrueHD in the player (these Toshibas do), you get uncompressed PCM out the HDMI cable to the AVR. You'll get the same sound quality that way as you would if the player sent TrueHD to the AVR. But because the audio is already decoded in the player, the AVR doesn't know it USED TO BE TrueHD so the light doesn't light up... even though the audio really is TrueHD... decoded to uncompressed PCM.

Again, DDPlus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD HR & MA are just wrappers with the data vacuum packed inside. They are essentially worthless as they exist and the only reason they exist is to make digital audio take up less space (on the disc or moving down wires). AVRs/processors do NOTHING with audio data in those formats except IMMEDIATELY decode it to PCM (same thing the players do right now). Once the data is in PCM format, the AVR/processor does all the "tricks" - balances the channels per your setup measurements (or internal automatic calibrations), compensates for speakers being different distances, etc.

So right now, you are losing NOTHING by not having the TrueHD light "off" on the AVR... as long as your set to output PCM via HDMI and you select a TrueHD soundtrack on the disc, you WILL get TrueHD sound even without the TrueHD light being lit on the AVR.

Yeah, but the little TrueHD light doesn't light up!!! I NEED THAT TO LIGHT UP TO ENJOY MY MOVIE EXPERIENCE!!!
:rolleyes:

Nice explination. If the trueHD is decoded to PCM in the XA2, does this mean we have to rely on the XA2's processing of things like speaker position/level, and *most importantly* audio delay for lip sync? Does the XA2 have all these adjustments? I can understand why someone might want to do this post processing in their AVR instead just for the flexibility of adjustments.

No, if the TrueHD is decoded in the player, it is always decoded to PCM. PCM is the mode the AVR/processor uses for all the processing it does to balance/correct the sound for your system based on the settings you put in the setup menus of the AVR/processor. So if the AVR has the adjustments you need, you'll have access to all of them in the AVR if you are sending multi-channel PCM to the AVR over HDMI. If you are using coax or Toslink digital connections... they can't pass high-res multi-channel PCM, you'll get stereo or DD or DTS only.

If you send analog audio to the AVR/processor, you are likely to lose all the AVR/processor adjustments unless the AVR/processor has 6 or 8 channels of Analog-to-Digital converters - most only have 2 channels of conversion for stereo analog inputs.



Another question,
I can't use the HDMI audio option because I don't yet own an AVR that will accept HDMI audio input, so I am stuck with either 6 ch analog or TOSLINK. Of course I can not use the 6 ch audio because there is no way to add delay and this makes the movies unwatchable imho. I have been happy using the optical TOSLINK. Now I assume that in this case the XA2 is decoding whatever audio compression format is on the disk to PCM, and then re-encoding this PCM to another multiplexed format that gets sent over TOSLINK. Question: is this re-encoding lossy or still equivalent to full-rate PCM? I think it is lossy. Are any of the XA2's audio settings applicable to the case where the optical output is being used?

Thanks,
Rich

If you are using coax or Toslink, the only audio you can get is uncompressed STEREO PCM only OR DD or DTS... not the advanced codecs at all. TrueHD (for example) has a Dolby Digital "core" file, plus more data "surrounding" it. If you use coax or Toslink, you get only DD or DTS or STEREO uncompressed PCM. That said, the DD you get is ALWAYS better, quite a lot better, than the DD on DVDs. The DTS you get is better than the DTS on most DVDs, but a small number of DVDs have had "high-bitrate" DTS on them (1.5Mbps) and that would be the same as the DTS "core" on high-def discs. So even if you are limited to coax or Toslink, you should get sound that's better than the large majority of DVDs. But it won't be as good as the whole enchilada you could get if you can use HDMI. I agree that using the analog outputs is hopeless in most players... you really need the speaker level settings, speaker size settings, speaker distance settings, audio delay/lip sync, subwoofer level, etc. for the analog outputs of a player to be useful.

...
If you are using coax or Toslink, the only audio you can get is uncompressed STEREO PCM only OR DD or DTS... not the advanced codecs at all. TrueHD (for example) has a Dolby Digital "core" file, plus more data "surrounding" it. If you use coax or Toslink, you get only DD or DTS or STEREO uncompressed PCM. That said, the DD you get is ALWAYS better, quite a lot better, than the DD on DVDs. The DTS you get is better than the DTS on most DVDs, but a small number of DVDs have had "high-bitrate" DTS on them (1.5Mbps) and that would be the same as the DTS "core" on high-def discs. So even if you are limited to coax or Toslink, you should get sound that's better than the large majority of DVDs. But it won't be as good as the whole enchilada you could get if you can use HDMI. I agree that using the analog outputs is hopeless in most players... you really need the speaker level settings, speaker size settings, speaker distance settings, audio delay/lip sync, subwoofer level, etc. for the analog outputs of a player to be useful.

Thanks for the very informative reply maxdb.

XA2 Service Manual Available HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=929036)



.S

Hi , I´ve recently got the Sony STR-DG810 A/V Receiver to enjoy LPCM. It has 3 hdmi inputs, one of them it´s connected to a PS3 which works flawlessly (PCM and TrueHD) as 5.1 with the receiver. I´m having problems to get 5.1 sound from the HD-A2... it´s connected to another input on the receiver and tried lot of things (changing cables, using the PS3 input) but i´m only getting stereo PCM. The weird thing is that i get the "MULTI" light on the front display of the A2, so i just dont know what I´m doing wrong. SPDIF output it´s set to PCM , so it´s the HDMI output option (tried AUTO too, and it automatically sets to bitsream). Please I would appreciate any help

Thanks

Ordered the XA2 yesterday and have been reading the online owners manual and various threads in this Forum.

I am surprised about one thing. My PS3 allows me to select between YCbCr and RGB (studio or enhanced) and even my upconverting Denon allows me to select between YCbCr and RGB.

The XA2 manual doesn't show a similar option. I would like to think that it is YCbCr; however, I have a suspicion that it isn't because I've read somewhere that the Reon processes in the RGB domain. Does anyone know which format is output. If RGB, is it studio (16-235) or enhanced (0-255)?

UPDATE: Read where it is 4:2:2 which is YCbCr. If anyone knows something different, please advise.

Read where it is 4:2:2 which is YCbCr.
That's what I see coming into my video processor.

I’m confused. . .

I have the XA2 connected to my Onkyo 705 via HDMI and then the Onkyo to my HD panel via HDMI. In the XA2 I have audio set to PCM and the Onkyo to HDMI passthrough. I have the setting for resolution at 1080p/24 (firmware 2.5) Everything works beautifully.

Except for one thing - when I play 300 I can set for Dolby TrueHD and it’s fine BUT it only shows 1080i and not p. Now this is were I’m a little confused - I would have thought that the XA2 would determine the 1080p and output at this resolution, the Onkyo should not change this and the panel is 1080p.

So, oh cluey ones - what am I missing?

I’m confused. . .

I have the XA2 connected to my Onkyo 705 via HDMI and then the Onkyo to my HD panel via HDMI. In the XA2 I have audio set to PCM and the Onkyo to HDMI passthrough. I have the setting for resolution at 1080p/24 (firmware 2.5) Everything works beautifully.

Except for one thing - when I play 300 I can set for Dolby TrueHD and it’s fine BUT it only shows 1080i and not p. Now this is were I’m a little confused - I would have thought that the XA2 would determine the 1080p and output at this resolution, the Onkyo should not change this and the panel is 1080p.

So, oh cluey ones - what am I missing?

Is the problem only with 300?

Is the problem only with 300?

It’s the only disk I have at this time - looks like I should go and buy another tomorrow to see if it is the disk:)

It’s the only disk I have at this time - looks like I should go and buy another tomorrow to see if it is the disk:)

I doubt that it is the disk. I was just a little confused since you said everything worked perfectly.

Obviously, the XA2 isn't formatting to 1080p; or the Onkyo isn't on passthrough and is reformatting back to 1080i.

You could remove the Onkyo and see if the XA2 gets
1080p clean to the display. That would also help define the issue as XA2 or Onkyo. Once you know for sure which component is the problem, then you can work with it.

Which chipset is the Tosh HD A2 using? Tks

I doubt that it is the disk. I was just a little confused since you said everything worked perfectly.

Obviously, the XA2 isn't formatting to 1080p; or the Onkyo isn't on passthrough and is reformatting back to 1080i.

You could remove the Onkyo and see if the XA2 gets
1080p clean to the display. That would also help define the issue as XA2 or Onkyo. Once you know for sure which component is the problem, then you can work with it.

Checked the Onkyo - it is on passthrough. Did what you suggested and connected the XA2 directly to the panel - still 1080i! So, it’s either the XA2 or, maybe, the disk.

I will check further.

Did what you suggested and connected the XA2 directly to the panel - still 1080i!
Are you sure your display accepts 1080p in?

Are you sure your display accepts 1080p in?

I’m beginning to think not although the specs say yes - I will investigate further.

Made a call today to the panel importer and they assure me it is 1080p capable. I then went over to another forum that I am a member of (Polk) and lo and behold a lady over there was having the same problem. The end result was it eventually worked for her after upgrading her HDMI cables - I have ordered new cables

I’m beginning to think not although the specs say yes - I will investigate further.

Some 1080p displays can only accept 1080i on the inputs. It can be confusing... the set requires you to send 1080i to any HDMI or DVI input, but it immediately converts that to 1080p before displaying it.

Just got an HD-A2 yesterday, was blown away watching Transformers, didn't calibrate, there was lots of ambient light, and I was just listening through the TV speakers.

It's downloading the firmware update now - is my only real option to use the current firmware, and is that the one that's best?

What else do you recommend doing right off the bat here? I'm connecting to the TV (1080i Panny plasma) with HDMI and to the receiver with optical.

Thanks a lot!

Just got an HD-A2 yesterday, was blown away watching Transformers, didn't calibrate, there was lots of ambient light, and I was just listening through the TV speakers.

It's downloading the firmware update now - is my only real option to use the current firmware, and is that the one that's best?

What else do you recommend doing right off the bat here? I'm connecting to the TV (1080i Panny plasma) with HDMI and to the receiver with optical.

Thanks a lot!

If possible, connect to the receiver with HDMI or 5.1 analog cables. That way you can get the best audio.

If possible, connect to the receiver with HDMI or 5.1 analog cables. That way you can get the best audio.

Unfortunately my receiver doesn't have HDMI, and since I went the cheap route with the HD-A2, no analog. :(

But this will probably end up being a 2nd player once I get a new TV and receiver in a few months.

The HD-A2 looks great at 1080i and sounds great through the optical out. Enjoy it while you're saving up for some new stuff.

Can someone confirm if the HD-A2 can output 1080i component and HDMI at the same time?

Can someone confirm if the HD-A2 can output 1080i component and HDMI at the same time?

One or the other.

Can someone please help me with an audio question concerning my new A3? I have the A3 hooked up to a receiver via an HDMI connection. When I play an HD DVD disc in Dolby TrueHD 5.1, it only outputs a 2 channel PCM stream ("2 ch" displays on the A3 and my receiver only shows 2 channel input). Is the A3 capable of outputting a 5.1 channel PCM stream? If so, what am I doing wrong? If not, what is the best way to listen to the 2 channel PCM stream? I am currently using the Dolby ProLogic II function on my receiver to expand the sound to 5.1 which seems decent, but is there a better option? Will there be a firmware update to enable 5.1 PCM output with TrueHD 5.1? Any help would be appreciated.

Hey everyone Wal-Mart is having a sale tomorrow HD-a2 will be under 100 go out and buy one if you have not got one yet

Can someone please help me with an audio question concerning my new A3? I have the A3 hooked up to a receiver via an HDMI connection. When I play an HD DVD disc in Dolby TrueHD 5.1, it only outputs a 2 channel PCM stream ("2 ch" displays on the A3 and my receiver only shows 2 channel input). Is the A3 capable of outputting a 5.1 channel PCM stream? If so, what am I doing wrong? If not, what is the best way to listen to the 2 channel PCM stream? I am currently using the Dolby ProLogic II function on my receiver to expand the sound to 5.1 which seems decent, but is there a better option? Will there be a firmware update to enable 5.1 PCM output with TrueHD 5.1? Any help would be appreciated.

In the setup menu under audio there is a setting for "HDMI Audio". Set it to "Auto". This will give you LPCM for the HD formats and bitstream for standard DD/DTS.

Can someone confirm if the HD-A2 can output 1080i component and HDMI at the same time?

Yes. I verified it last night.

I have the HDMI set to "auto" and I do get PCM for HD formats and bitstream for regular formats. My problem is my PCM is only 2 channel for HD formats. My question is...does the A3 output 5.1 channel PCM or only 2 channel?

Newbie question here.
What happens if I plug a 1080i player (like the tosh HD A2) into a 1080p TV?

I know it's stupid.

I have the HDMI set to "auto" and I do get PCM for HD formats and bitstream for regular formats. My problem is my PCM is only 2 channel for HD formats. My question is...does the A3 output 5.1 channel PCM or only 2 channel?

It outputs 5.1 LPCM when the HDMI audio is set to "Auto". Don't know what the problem is with yours, but it should be putting out 5.1. Sometimes the HDMI screws up the player if it is attached to a receiver that is passing the audio through to a stereo TV. The TV tells the player that it is 2 channel only and the player defaults to 2 channel through HDMI. If you can set the receiver to "no audio out" to the TV connection, this may help. HDMI is screwy that way.

Newbie question here.
What happens if I plug a 1080i player (like the tosh HD A2) into a 1080p TV?

I know it's stupid.

You get a 1080i picture. 1080i on a native 1080p screen looks really good, since it doesn't have to down convert to 720p.

You get a 1080i picture. 1080i on a native 1080p screen looks really good, since it doesn't have to down convert to 720p.

Actually, you get a 1080p picture. The only difference is the TV is doing the deinterlacing instead of the player. No information is lost or scaled, the TV just combines the 2 interlaced frames into one progressive frame and displays it.

fantastic, thanks guys.
Now i just have to find this A2 for 99 somewhere. and it looks out of stock everywhere in manhattan (BB, CC, wal mart is in new jersey and I'm not going to jersey, even for a sweet dvd player!).

Yes. I verified it last night.
Yes, it will output both. :)

One or the other.

Is it now the tactic of Blu fans to spread complete lies in order to discourage sales? Grow up.:o

Is it now the tactic of Blu fans to spread complete lies in order to discourage sales? Grow up.:o
HAven't you been watching the Sony ads....it's in their HDNA..... :D

What sound can the HDXA2 Bistream?

One or the other.

Yes. I verified it last night.

:confused:

Hmmm... after a bit more research, it would appear Rayzor1211 would be correct. This is a good sign, as my A1 will not. This means I can pick up an A2 and have the HDMI feed my reciever for the audio, and send the 1080i to my (older) HDTV.

What sound can the HDXA2 Bistream?

Standard DD/DTS. There is talk of an update to bitstream HD formats, but nothing definite yet.

Standard DD/DTS. There is talk of an update to bitstream HD formats, but nothing definite yet.
of all the times there was "talk" did it ever happen. I'm trying to figure out if i should return my HD-XA2 the guy at Magnolia told me to return it if i dont like it within 30 days. I'm on day 21 and with HD-A35 it can Bistream the formats am i correct? I dont have a HDMI reciever however i plan on getting one. thinking about the onkyo 705. is there a big difference between sounds in bitstream and pcm? I bought my XA2 for 369 open box is it worth an extra $130 for the HD-A35?

of all the times there was "talk" did it ever happen. I'm trying to figure out if i should return my HD-XA2 the guy at Magnolia told me to return it if i dont like it within 30 days. I'm on day 21 and with HD-A35 it can Bistream the formats am i correct? I dont have a HDMI reciever however i plan on getting one. thinking about the onkyo 705. is there a big difference between sounds in bitstream and pcm? I bought my XA2 for 369 open box is it worth an extra $130 for the HD-A35?

I don't think there is ANY difference, let alone a BIG difference, whether decoded in the player, or in the receiver. I have the XA2 and am getting the Onkyo 805, and I certainly wouldn't give up my XA2 for the purpose of bitstream, although I guess it would be nice to see TrueHD on the display:)

Does anyone here know what the latest software upgrade does for the A2? Dose it add or enhance any features?

Thanks

So, Im confused still... I have an HD-A2 and plan to get a new receiver to take advantage of TrueHD. In the case of the HD-A2, can it even send a proper signal to the new HDMI 1.3 receivers so the TrueHD decoding is done on the receiver end (bitstream) the way the older DD and DTS formats are decoded through optical?

Or will it only send MPCM even with a 1.3 receiver on the other end? In the case of the HD-A2, is there even any advantage of getting a 1.3 receiver over a 1.1 if you can't even use the decoders anyway (if that is the case)?

I guess Im asking if the receiver will show that it's decoding TrueHD on the display if the HD-A2 is feeding into it?

So, Im confused still... I have an HD-A2 and plan to get a new receiver to take advantage of TrueHD. In the case of the HD-A2, can it even send a proper signal to the new HDMI 1.3 receivers so the TrueHD decoding is done on the receiver end (bitstream) the way the older DD and DTS formats are decoded through optical?

Or will it only send MPCM even with a 1.3 receiver on the other end? In the case of the HD-A2, is there even any advantage of getting a 1.3 receiver over a 1.1 if you can't even use the decoders anyway (if that is the case)?

I guess Im asking if the receiver will show that it's decoding TrueHD on the display if the HD-A2 is feeding into it?

There is only one HD DVD player that will pass HD formats as bitstream - the A35. There is only one Blu-ray too. All the others decode at the player and pass as LPCM (multichannel PCM). Except for futureproofing, there is no need to purchase a receiver that decodes the HD formats, you just need one that handles LPCM (HDMI 1.1). The only HD DVD player that will "Light up the TrueHD light" on the receiver is the A35. But it doesn't really matter, TrueHD is lossless, so decoding in the player is the same as decoding in the receiver. If you have to have the light lit on the receiver, the cost is at least $400 more than the A2.

Hey everyone Wal-Mart is having a sale tomorrow HD-a2 will be under 100 go out and buy one if you have not got one yet

Yeah, I just saw the Wmart ad on black friday sights. I can't believe their blowing out these HDA2s for 98.87! Wish they'd get some XA2's. Has anyone confirmed this price?

See this link.
http://www.blackfriday.info/ads/wal-mart-black-friday-ad.html

Rich

Wow. I just fond out that this price is actually in effect today.
http://holiday.ri-walmart.com/?section=secret&utm_source=Walmartcom&utm_medium=POV1&utm_content=secret1&utm_campaign=holiday&povid=cat14503-env15844-module117145-lLink1

Now I see the HD A3 for a good price too at Sears (169.99)
http://www.blackfriday.info/ads/sears-black-friday-ad.html

Yes, I picked one up this morning:D

There were only about 20, and they were probably all gone by 8:30

Yes, I picked one up this morning:D

There were only about 20, and they were probably all gone by 8:30

Did the same, and palate all gone by 9.

Anybody in the know as to how many A2's Toshiba has shipped out for these sales? If the number is large, then...

Will this mean that the regular selling price will come down again? I think it is currently $199 most places, so one people see $99, I would think theat the regular selling price is going to have to drop some, maybe $149.

Anybody in the know as to how many A2's Toshiba has shipped out for these sales? If the number is large, then...

Will this mean that the regular selling price will come down again? I think it is currently $199 most places, so one people see $99, I would think theat the regular selling price is going to have to drop some, maybe $149.

Probably. But at this price I think the A3 at 169 is an even better deal.

I too picked up an A2 at the $98 price. I figured that even if it isn't the most up to date, I am not going to lose much with my equipment (Samsung 720P DLP, 5.1 receiver -will be connected to the toslink).

I got there early, so i guaranteed myself one. By 8, all the players were accounted for. :eek:

Now I see the HD A3 for a good price too at Sears (169.99)
http://www.blackfriday.info/ads/sears-black-friday-ad.html

do you know if those prices will be available online? Only during BF?

of all the times there was "talk" did it ever happen. I'm trying to figure out if i should return my HD-XA2 the guy at Magnolia told me to return it if i dont like it within 30 days. I'm on day 21 and with HD-A35 it can Bistream the formats am i correct? I dont have a HDMI reciever however i plan on getting one. thinking about the onkyo 705. is there a big difference between sounds in bitstream and pcm? I bought my XA2 for 369 open box is it worth an extra $130 for the HD-A35?

i'd rather have the reon in the xa2 than bitstream audio outputs. the reon gives you good upscaling on standard dvd's. bitstream gives you a pretty light on your receiver and nothing else.

Since I just jumped off the bandwagon of waiting for a universal player for this deal, I apologize for being ignorant of the issues. The only thing I need to know is if a firmware update is needed/recommended and what does the update change?

Thanks in advance for the spoonfeeding.

Pick up the HD-2A in a suburban Washington DC store this morning. The store had 10, and they were gone by 8:10 AM. The big seller was the Acer laptop, people were buying both laptops and HD-2As.

Since I just jumped off the bandwagon of waiting for a universal player for this deal, I apologize for being ignorant of the issues. The only thing I need to know is if a firmware update is needed/recommended and what does the update change?

Thanks in advance for the spoonfeeding.

The latest firmware is 2.5. Toshiba is a little vague on what it changes, but it does correct some HDMI bugs and playing problems with certain disks. You would definitely need this upgrade is you are going HDMI->DVI.

The latest firmware is 2.5. Toshiba is a little vague on what it changes, but it does correct some HDMI bugs and playing problems with certain disks. You would definitely need this upgrade is you are going HDMI->DVI.

Thanks, sounds maybe like I won't need to do it as I'll be using HDMI only. I did want all possible HD audio options. By the way, is it updated via a disk or do you have to hook it up to a pc?

i'd rather have the reon in the xa2 than bitstream audio outputs. the reon gives you good upscaling on standard dvd's. bitstream gives you a pretty light on your receiver and nothing else.
True, my standard DVD's look incredible on my 71 series samsung. But i still have 13 days to make the return on the XA2 and maybe purchase a A35 I have a Magnolia sales person keeping a look out on a Open Box A35 for me. Now does anyone know if the Bitstream for the XA2 is a Hardware issue or a Software issue?

Thanks, sounds maybe like I won't need to do it as I'll be using HDMI only. I did want all possible HD audio options. By the way, is it updated via a disk or do you have to hook it up to a pc?

You can either update it by disk or you can use the built in ethernet port. You need either a wireless adapter or a router to attach to, for the ethernet port. I would update if I were you. It's a small download and only takes about 15 minutes to load. That way you will never run into problems with any particular disk.

You can either update it by disk or you can use the built in ethernet port. You need either a wireless adapter or a router to attach to, for the ethernet port. I would update if I were you. It's a small download and only takes about 15 minutes to load. That way you will never run into problems with any particular disk.

Thanks, I scanned that thread. I was a bit concerned about what many on that thread refer to as the "infamous" 2.5 update and some players having issues that weren't apparantely there prior to update. Not trying to start a great debate here and appreciate your input.

i'd rather have the reon in the xa2 than bitstream audio outputs. the reon gives you good upscaling on standard dvd's. bitstream gives you a pretty light on your receiver and nothing else.
I also think the A2 is a better player than the A3. By now everyone knows that A2 will give DTS over SP/DIF whereas A3 will not (only DD).

Rudy

Thanks, I scanned that thread. I was a bit concerned about what many on that thread refer to as the "infamous" 2.5 update and some players having issues that weren't apparantely there prior to update. Not trying to start a great debate here and appreciate your input.

Personally, I haven't had any problems with 2.5, but my setup is probably the least quirky and most generic, HDMI -> HDMI receiver -> HDMI TV. I've also not seen any problems with disks, so far.

Personally, I haven't had any problems with 2.5, but my setup is probably the least quirky and most generic, HDMI -> HDMI receiver -> HDMI TV. I've also not seen any problems with disks, so far.

If I hook it via ethernet line, do I need it hooked to a monitor or can it be done via the unit controls?
Nevermind, I saw on the newbie thread that it would need a monitor.

If I hook it via ethernet line, do I need it hooked to a monitor or can it be done via the unit controls?
Nevermind, I saw on the newbie thread that it would need a monitor.

Actually, if you have a router nearby (within cabling distance), all setup of the ethernet connection can be done on the machine itself. There is no need to access the router for anything. Wireless will probably require a PC to configure the wireless adapter, but hardline ethernet can all be done via the player. Basically, it's just plug it into the ethernet connection, go to the Ethernet Setup screen, turn DHCP and INS to on, confirm the INS config, save the settings and reboot the machine. This will work for 90% of the internet connections out there.

Hi, guys.

I'm a XA2 owner who picked up an A2 for my wife today.

Our home computer/TV setup doesn't permit ethernet connections (I don't know how to do it anyway).

Can someone who got the latest (2.5?) firmware via CD from Toshiba want to PM me?

Here's the deal: if you will mail me the latest disc, I'll either "pass it forward" to someone else OR, if you wish, I'll send a two-novel SF series I wrote, autographed. Not bestsellers but SOMEONE liked them!;)

Anyone?

Hi, guys.

I'm a XA2 owner who picked up an A2 for my wife today.

Our home computer/TV setup doesn't permit ethernet connections (I don't know how to do it anyway).

Can someone who got the latest (2.5?) firmware via CD from Toshiba want to PM me?

Here's the deal: if you will mail me the latest disc, I'll either "pass it forward" to someone else OR, if you wish, I'll send a two-novel SF series I wrote, autographed. Not bestsellers but SOMEONE liked them!;)

Anyone?

It's available for download online. Just go to Toshiba's website http://tacpservice.toshiba.com/ConsumerProductSupport/productupdatesandnotices.asp or follow the links from here. Burn it to CD using the instructions in the update thread (must use ISO burner software, there are links in the thread), insert it in the tray, close the tray and wait.

It's available for download online. Just go to Toshiba's website http://tacpservice.toshiba.com/ConsumerProductSupport/productupdatesandnotices.asp or follow the links from here. Burn it to CD using the instructions in the update thread (must use ISO burner software, there are links in the thread), insert it in the tray, close the tray and wait.

I appreciate it. Went there and checked it out. That's beyond my capabilities. If I could do that kind of stuff, I would.

Just bought HD-A2; I haven’t had a HD DVD disc yet so I tested it with a regular DVD.

Here’s something I don’t understand:

[My HD-A2 connected to AV receiver by 1 HDMI cable, nothing else.]

I chose Dolby Digital 5.1 from the disc menu, I set HDMI audio (on HD-A2) to “auto”.
On the HD-A2, it displayed 2-ch, but I could hear sound from all speakers! (I’m sure my AV receiver doesn’t do any kind of surround sound 5.1 simulation…)

Can anyone explain?

Thanks in advance.

Just bought HD-A2; I haven’t had a HD DVD disc yet so I tested it with a regular DVD.

Here’s something I don’t understand:

[My HD-A2 connected to AV receiver by 1 HDMI cable, nothing else.]

I chose Dolby Digital 5.1 from the disc menu, I set HDMI audio (on HD-A2) to “auto”.
On the HD-A2, it displayed 2-ch, but I could hear sound from all speakers! (I’m sure my AV receiver doesn’t do any kind of surround sound 5.1 simulation…)

Can anyone explain?

Thanks in advance.

It's a bug. For some reason the SPDIF shows 2-channel when it is not. Ignore it as long as the receiver shows the correct format.

PS - The HDMI also shows "Bitstream" when it is LPCM. Ignore that too.

just picked one of these up...want to run this hd-dvd player with my Pioneer HTS6500...i know I need to run this with an optical cable...but do i also need the audio converter?

just picked one of these up...want to run this hd-dvd player with my Pioneer HTS6500...i know I need to run this with an optical cable...but do i also need the audio converter?

What "audio converter?" Be more specific, please.

What "audio converter?" Be more specific, please.


This thing, sorry i'm a newb :(

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=2947&seq=1&format=2

I just bought a new Pioneer VSX-91TXH receiver to marry up with my A2.

Do all I need to do is select "HDMI -> PCM" in the A2 set up menu?

I don't think there is ANY difference, let alone a BIG difference, whether decoded in the player, or in the receiver. I have the XA2 and am getting the Onkyo 805, and I certainly wouldn't give up my XA2 for the purpose of bitstream, although I guess it would be nice to see TrueHD on the display:)

I think it sounds better with the receiver decoding. PIO 92. But somebody is going to say I am crazy.

i'd rather have the reon in the xa2 than bitstream audio outputs. the reon gives you good upscaling on standard dvd's. bitstream gives you a pretty light on your receiver and nothing else.

The A35 is as good as the Xa2. I've had both. If there is a difference I don't se it.

I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem

I hava the A2 connected to my 37" olevia lcd through both hdmi and composite, neither of them have any sound..no sound is coming from my speakers on either one. Video is fine could use some advice on this thanks

This thing, sorry i'm a newb :(

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10423&cs_id=1042302&p_id=2947&seq=1&format=2


No problem. The only reason you'd need one of those is if you do not have an available optical input on your receiver. If you don't have an optical, but you do have a coax, the converter will take your optical out from the A2 and convert it to the coax in on the receiver. If you do have an available optical on the receiver, just go optical from the player to the optical on the receiver.

I was wondering if anyone else has had this problem

I hava the A2 connected to my 37" olevia lcd through both hdmi and composite, neither of them have any sound..no sound is coming from my speakers on either one. Video is fine could use some advice on this thanks

Try setting the HDMI audio to "PCM Downmix". The TV will not know how to decode the HD audio, so you need to have it downmixed to 2.0 channel PCM. Either that or just go red/white analog audio from the player to the TV. If you do this, make sure the audio inputs on the TV are the same input as the HDMI.

Thanks Jgatie sound works while in component with the downmix but now i cant seem to get the tv to recognize the dvd player through hdmi...

does anyone know if a crappy hdmi cable can stop a tv from recognizing an attached dvd player it seems my tv only connects through hdmi when it feels like it

Thanks Jgatie sound works while in component with the downmix but now i cant seem to get the tv to recognize the dvd player through hdmi...
does anyone know if a crappy hdmi cable can stop a tv from recognizing an attached dvd player it seems my tv only connects through hdmi when it feels like it
I have the same set-up as you and everything works as advertised. Swapping out cables is a good starting point if you're certain that all the menu's are set properly.

David

The A35 is as good as the Xa2. I've had both. If there is a difference I don't se it.

I can understand that the 1080p probably looks the same on either unit, but can you comment on the DVD upconversion of the A35 vs the XA-2?

Bish

My A2 is hooked to my receiver by an optical cable. My receiver is a Denon AVR1906. When I watch a HD movie that only has Dolby Digital decoding the Denon display says it's decoding in DTS. When I put a SD movie that has DD it displays DD. My audio setting on the Denon is set to Auto. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

My A2 is hooked to my receiver by an optical cable. My receiver is a Denon AVR1906. When I watch a HD movie that only has Dolby Digital decoding the Denon display says it's decoding in DTS. When I put a SD movie that has DD it displays DD. My audio setting on the Denon is set to Auto. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.


That's not "Dolby Digital" on the HD DVD, it's DD+. DD+ is a new HD format and can't be sent over optical, so the player decodes the DD+, re-encodes it as high bitrate (1.5 Mbs) DTS and then sends it out via the optical. It's all in the manual.

That's not "Dolby Digital" on the HD DVD, it's DD+. DD+ is a new HD format and can't be sent over optical, so the player decodes the DD+, re-encodes it as high bitrate (1.5 Mbs) DTS and then sends it out via the optical. It's all in the manual.

Is this why, using the optical, some discs play perfectly through the two fronts, but the center speaker won't play the dialog?

I got an HD-XA2 within the first month of introduction and the fan sound been getting louder and louder. I have to conclude that there is something wrong with my unit. I am not talking slightly loud -- I can hear that the XA2 is on from 15-20' down the hall. I don't understand how such a small fan can be so loud. Has anybody replaced the fan in the XA2 -- or know of a good, quiet replacement.

Just thought I'd drop a quick note in here about the A2's overpowering black for new users such as myself.

In the player options turn ON the enhance black option. You'll be much happier. The image is otherwise overpowered by black in many scenes. I noticed this on Transformers.

I know this information is likely elsewhere in this thread, but its 150+ pages now.

I think it sounds better with the receiver decoding. PIO 92. But somebody is going to say I am crazy.

you are crazy :D

seriously, the only way i'll believe you is if you did a controlled double blind test with a large group of testers. if there are any differences between sending PCM and sending bitstream, they'd be so small you'd really have to work hard to eliminate the placebo effect. otherwise, you'll convince yourself that you're hearing what you want/expect to hear.

I can understand that the 1080p probably looks the same on either unit, but can you comment on the DVD upconversion of the A35 vs the XA-2?

Bish

actually, doesn't the a35 have the 1080p output bug (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=930771)?

Ok...I just picked up one of these for $100 (display unit leftover at Best Buy). Do I need to install any firmware updates or anything? It's just going in my bedroom on my 30" Samsung Slimfit. I'm leaving the XBox 360 Elite/HD-DVD drive combo upstairs on the big screen. Let me know - thanks!

Anyone know any good deals on a HDMI switcher? I am all out of inputs on my display. Anything special i need to look for?

Anyone know any good deals on a HDMI switcher? I am all out of inputs on my display. Anything special i need to look for?

Here is one at monoprice:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=101&cp_id=10110&cs_id=1011002&p_id=3728&seq=1&format=2

Anyone know any good deals on a HDMI switcher? I am all out of inputs on my display. Anything special i need to look for?

Q
Check out the OPPO link above.

My A2 is hooked to my receiver by an optical cable. My receiver is a Denon AVR1906. When I watch a HD movie that only has Dolby Digital decoding the Denon display says it's decoding in DTS. When I put a SD movie that has DD it displays DD. My audio setting on the Denon is set to Auto. I don't know what I'm doing wrong.

Nothing wrong. The optical/coax does not support the newer codecs (they do not have the bandwidth) only through HDMI, so the player converts the newer codecs to DTS. When you watch an SD-DVD it is life as usual since you are now getting the older codecs (DD or DTS).

Nothing wrong. The optical/coax does not support the newer codecs (they do not have the bandwidth) only through HDMI, so the player converts the newer codecs to DTS. When you watch an SD-DVD it is life as usual since you are now getting the older codecs (DD or DTS).

And so not to make it confusing the DD sergiom is referring to from the HD disk is DD plus or DDTrueHD which are both new codecs, not basic DD. I think.

Nothing wrong. The optical/coax does not support the newer codecs (they do not have the bandwidth) only through HDMI, so the player converts the newer codecs to DTS. When you watch an SD-DVD it is life as usual since you are now getting the older codecs (DD or DTS).

Based on what you are saying, when the new firmware upgrade for the XA2 comes out, the optical out will still not pass DD+ out? Thanks.

Jim

Based on what you are saying, when the new firmware upgrade for the XA2 comes out, the optical out will still not pass DD+ out? Thanks.

Jim


Correct. It's a hardware limitation (not of the Toshiba, but of the underlying technology), not a firmware issue.

Correct. It's a hardware limitation (not of the Toshiba, but of the underlying technology), not a firmware issue.

Is it really a hardware issue? Or is it like the no upconverting via component thing???

Is it really a hardware issue? Or is it like the no upconverting via component thing???

It's a specifications issue. The SPDIF spec is limited to 1.5Mbs. Sure it can go faster, but it has a rev limiter.

Is it really a hardware issue? Or is it like the no upconverting via component thing???Per Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12090180&postcount=1926
S/PDIF does not support such bitrates, and even if it did, where is this card going to get access to unencrypted TrueHD bitstreams?

The codecs themselves are not limited to specific connector types. Those parameters come from the content formats and security requirements.
In other words it is not the theoretical technical bandwidth capability of Toslink.

Rather it is a decision by the content providers (studios) on what to allow multichannel audio transport on. They want the security of encryption (HDCP on HDMI, or 5c on 1394 Firewire).

you are crazy :D

seriously, the only way i'll believe you is if you did a controlled double blind test with a large group of testers. if there are any differences between sending PCM and sending bitstream, they'd be so small you'd really have to work hard to eliminate the placebo effect. otherwise, you'll convince yourself that you're hearing what you want/expect to hear.

Have you done said test to disprove what I am saying? Have you been able to listen to it both ways like I have?


Um...no.


And the bass is much better when sent via bitstream.

Per Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12090180&postcount=1926

In other words it is not the theoretical technical bandwidth capability of Toslink.

Rather it is a decision by the content providers (studios) on what to allow multichannel audio transport on. They want the security of encryption (HDCP on HDMI, or 5c on 1394 Firewire).

Thats what I suspected. Thanks for the links.....

I have a 5.1 setup and listen in "straight" mode on my Yamaha HTR-6090.

When watching Face Off on the XA2 I could choose between DD+ Ex or DTS 6.1? I didn't have an opportunity to sample both and just when with DD+ Ex.

How would DTS 6.1 compare?

I got an HD-XA2 within the first month of introduction and the fan sound been getting louder and louder. I have to conclude that there is something wrong with my unit. I am not talking slightly loud -- I can hear that the XA2 is on from 15-20' down the hall. I don't understand how such a small fan can be so loud. Has anybody replaced the fan in the XA2 -- or know of a good, quiet replacement.

Oh yeah. I definitely know what you are talking about regarding the fan noise. I am getting ready to replace my fan soon too. After about 4 months it started squealing loudly. I found I could make the squeal stop by taping the fan grill on the back pannel and the noise would not return until the next power-up. I took the fan out and looked at it and I think there is something wrong with the bearings/suspension, but there is no way to tighten it up. Anyway, it's just a basic 12v fan and I plan to take one from an old pc when I get around to it (or if the tapping cure stops working). What a pice of &*^&^%$^&* fan!

Incredible upconvert PQ though. I'm still lovin' it.

Rich

Have there been any reported issues with the HD-A2 not responding to the remote? I searched this and the other big thread and did not turn up anything. I can operate the A2 from the panel but no response to the remote at all. Two sets of new batteries have been installed and the remote works fine with my other A2 upstairs. I also brought the upstairs remote down and it also does not work with A2 #1. So I am pretty sure it's not the remote but the A2 itself.

I bought it from **************** on 8/4 and it was delivered 8/13 so not sure where I would stand if a 90-day warranty comes in to play.

Have there been any reported issues with the HD-A2 not responding to the remote? I searched this and the other big thread and did not turn up anything. I can operate the A2 from the panel but no response to the remote at all. Two sets of new batteries have been installed and the remote works fine with my other A2 upstairs. I also brought the upstairs remote down and it also does not work with A2 #1. So I am pretty sure it's not the remote but the A2 itself.

I bought it from **************** on 8/4 and it was delivered 8/13 so not sure where I would stand if a 90-day warranty comes in to play.

Try a universal remote to see if the A2 responds.

Try a universal remote to see if the A2 responds.Good idea. No luck though. My Harmony 880 (which operates the upstairs A2 just fine) does not operate the downstairs A2. No response. Time to seek warranty help? Could a firmware update fix this?

sounds like a bad IR sensor in the unit. Sounds like warranty work...or maybe the IR just came loose? I'm not sure how these are connected to the mainboard.

Have you done said test to disprove what I am saying? Have you been able to listen to it both ways like I have?


Um...no.


And the bass is much better when sent via bitstream.

Very interesting... I am going to have to try this. Just curious as to what receiver/speaker setup you have.

Good idea. No luck though. My Harmony 880 (which operates the upstairs A2 just fine) does not operate the downstairs A2. No response. Time to seek warranty help? Could a firmware update fix this?

Wow, that sounds serious. I would certainly go ahead an reload the latest firmware if you can, but can you access the necessary menus to perform the update from the front panel without a remote? Hope so.

If this still doesn't work then I'd definitely try to get warranty coverage by calling Toshiba first. If you are out of waranty then I would wait till black friday and buy another unit for 98 bucks at walmart if you can, as you will almost certainly pay more than this for an out-of-waranty repair.

Keep us posted,
Rich