Tosh G2 HD-A2 and HD-XA2 information and discussion [Text View] - Page 20

Dugout Doug

11-06-07, 10:21 AM

Hey all, I just got my A2 in the Walmart sale, as I am sure the this thread has been swamped with us this past week.

Anyway, I only have 2 real general questions.

Question #1, is there a cat 5 to usb option that I can use with this thing to connect this puppy wirelessly to the Internet? My wired Router isnt close, and I have a USB access point (nothing to plug into the walls), will a converter work? Anyone have a suggestion for me? :) Thanks!

Question #2, is there plans in the works to get this player to output bitstream so my receiver can do the truehd and dts decoding? Any work on that in future firmware updates?

Thanks so much guys!

Alex solomon

11-06-07, 11:28 AM

I just received an invoice for my XA2 repair and under service performed it says:
"Part Replaced - Electrical
SOFTWARE RESTORE"
Does anybody know what this mean? I had to send my XA2 to Toshiba because I was having problem playing back SD DVDs. Thanks.

toneman

11-06-07, 01:34 PM

Hey all, I just got my A2 in the Walmart sale, as I am sure the this thread has been swamped with us this past week.

Anyway, I only have 2 real general questions.

Question #1, is there a cat 5 to usb option that I can use with this thing to connect this puppy wirelessly to the Internet? My wired Router isnt close, and I have a USB access point (nothing to plug into the walls), will a converter work? Anyone have a suggestion for me? :) Thanks!
Sounds like a wireless bridge would be the practical (if not only) solution in your case (and mine, as well--no ethernet ports in the family room!) since I don't think the A2 supports the connection of an ethernet wireless adapter to its' (unlabeled) USB port (similar to the X360 wireless adapter for connecting the X360 to the internet).

audiomagnate

11-06-07, 01:39 PM

how can i tell what my new a2 build date is. with the xa2 it was sle#77 so it was july 07 correct. but one of the a2s i bought at walmart starts with 2273. how can i tell what the build date is without opening the box.

It's on the back of the unit.

JonStatt

11-06-07, 02:10 PM

Have you done said test to disprove what I am saying? Have you been able to listen to it both ways like I have?

Um...no.

And the bass is much better when sent via bitstream.

Perhaps there is a difference...but there shouldn 't be! Just from a logical standpoint, if there are differences, then one of them is not decoding it correctly. Lossless is lossless is lossless. Louder sounds better. Perhaps the bass mangement is applied differently.

Something is broken somewhere....and root cause needs to be determined.

Jgatie

11-06-07, 02:44 PM

Perhaps there is a difference...but there shouldn 't be! Just from a logical standpoint, if there are differences, then one of them is not decoding it correctly. Lossless is lossless is lossless. Louder sounds better. Perhaps the bass mangement is applied differently.

Something is broken somewhere....and root cause needs to be determined.

Dollars to donuts either the player or the receiver (or both) is applying some sort of DSP. Dynamic Range Compression, Dialog Norm on the player/receiver or any of the (IMHO) useless "Cinema", "Concert Hall" etc., modes on the receiver. If on the player, these wouldn't apply to the undecoded bitstream that is being passed and on the receiver, these will often not be applied to the raw LPCM coming in.

pixelation

11-06-07, 04:43 PM

Why is that everytime I press "SUBTITLE", I jump to the first subtitle, the one I want to watch, but it is OFF? And I must cycle through all the subtitle tracks to turn the one I want back ON?

Dugout Doug

11-06-07, 05:36 PM

Sounds like a wireless bridge would be the practical (if not only) solution in your case (and mine, as well--no ethernet ports in the family room!) since I don't think the A2 supports the connection of an ethernet wireless adapter to its' (unlabeled) USB port (similar to the X360 wireless adapter for connecting the X360 to the internet).

Thanks sir!

aktick

11-06-07, 07:22 PM

I now have 2 A2s, and am curious how to best set them up. Both have been updated with the latest firmware.

#1 - 1080i plasma, Onkyo receiver with only optical. So I have HDMI running to the TV, optical to the receiver.

What do you recommend setting the following at:

Enhanced Black Level (On/Off)
RGB Output Range (Standard/Enhanced)
Picture Mode (Film/Video/Auto)
Digital Out SPDIF (Bitstream/PCM)
Digital Out HDMI (Auto/PCM/Downmixed PCM)
Dynamic Range Control (Auto/On/Off)
Dialog Enhancement (On/Off)

#2 - 1080i CRT, no receiver. Only connection I have is HDMI to the TV.

Again, what would you recommend setting things at?

Enhanced Black Level (On/Off)
RGB Output Range (Standard/Enhanced)
Picture Mode (Film/Video/Auto)
Digital Out SPDIF (Bitstream/PCM)
Digital Out HDMI (Auto/PCM/Downmixed PCM)
Dynamic Range Control (Auto/On/Off)
Dialog Enhancement (On/Off)

I realize a lot of these settings might depend on my particular environment and whatnot, just wondering if there was a general rule of thumb. Thanks!

wabkab

11-09-07, 09:16 AM

snatta

11-09-07, 09:33 AM

wabkab

11-09-07, 10:03 AM

I finally got my firmware upgrade disk in the mail yesterday after 10 weeks of waiting for it. I thought when I ordered it in August the CSR told me to follow the instructions, but he added one final step that he said most people have to do for the upgrade to take. I thought he said to unplug the HD-A2 for 30 minutes after I complete the upgrade procedure and then plug it back in. Is this correct? My firmware update is version 2.5/T23.

Also, another question. When I am watching a DVD and have to stop and turn the player off with the DVD still in the machine, the DVD doesn't start up where I stopped it at when I turn the power back on. This is really a pain in the neck. Will this new firmware correct this problem, or is there a setting I am missing to allow the player to remember where I left off on the DVD?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

I don't think the upgrade fixes that. Didn't on mine. I just followed the online printed directions from Toshiba's support/uprgrade section on website. If I recall, it may be in the manual and/or layed out in the Firmware upgrade sticy thread. Either way, it's easy and I didn't read anything about the 30 minute off thing. I used the disk I made from download and it took all of about 10 minutes for the whole thing. Just follow the directions and no turning off during the upgrade.

Jgatie

11-09-07, 11:14 AM

Also, another question. When I am watching a DVD and have to stop and turn the player off with the DVD still in the machine, the DVD doesn't start up where I stopped it at when I turn the power back on. This is really a pain in the neck. Will this new firmware correct this problem, or is there a setting I am missing to allow the player to remember where I left off on the DVD?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

There is no "resume" function for HD DVD. There is a "bookmark" function (hit the 'B' button) on some disks that will save your place, but because of advanced authoring, the "resume" is not possible at this time.

snatta

11-09-07, 11:52 AM

Thanks for the replies.

If I am having no problems with my HD-A2, should I upgrade the firmware? I am reading other threads that say this upgrade has caused some problems and is suited for 1080p HD players. The upgrade is supposed to improve the start and load time when you turn the player on. I have only played a couple HD DVDs so far, and haven't noticed any lock up or color problems. The picture was very sharp and the color looked great. Most of the SD DVDs look as good as they would on my SD player and TV. Sometimes the SD DVD look like they lack sharpness or focus, sort of like a movie looks like on a movie theater screen. But, the trade off for me is getting to see them in their original widescreen format on my 46' HDTV. Will this upgrade improve my HD-A2 picture and sound quality?

Thanks again.

CHAS ZOSS

11-09-07, 12:11 PM

I think you'll find those settings in the "first end user reports' sticky And where might I find the sticky? Thanks

wabkab

11-09-07, 02:09 PM

The stickys are the first group of theads always at the top of the forum group, in this case the HD DVD Players' one.

greyseal

11-09-07, 09:06 PM

CR rates PQ of the HD-A2 in three areas: HD, film DVDs @480p, and video DVDs @480p. The ratings are, respectively, Excellent, Excellent, and Fair. If you recall the CR ratings in their pictogram format, these are full red dot, full red dot, half black dot. That half black dot stands out as being not so good. I assume the last two ratings concern SD DVDs; please correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm a little confused (but then this is my first post here, and I don't own anything yet - but am thinking strongly of buying a Panasonic TH-42PX77U and Toshiba HD-A2 or A3 in the very near future). I haven't seen anyone here complaining about video DVD PQ on this unit, and secondly, if I'm recalling correctly, many here are saying to use 1080i as the outut from the A2 regardless of the DVD. Is CR doing something dumb with their 480p setting for output?

Any comments/clarifications would be appreciated.

greyseal

11-10-07, 02:34 PM

CR rates PQ of the HD-A2 in three areas: HD, film DVDs @480p, and video DVDs @480p. The ratings are, respectively, Excellent, Excellent, and Fair.

I should have also noted that Consumer Reports rates the HD-XA2 Excellent in all 3 categories. So according to CR, the XA2 is much better than the A2 in video DVD @480p. Hmmm ... does that reflect the experiences of owners here?

Finally, CR rates the HD-A20 identical to the A2 in terms of PQ.

JonStatt

11-10-07, 04:46 PM

rebel318

11-10-07, 05:51 PM

I'm trying to hook up this hddvd player to my pioneerHTS6500...i bought the optical cable and adapter because the HTS6500 receiver doesn't have an input for the optical cable....so how do i hook all this up and make it work?!?

Cluster One

11-10-07, 07:56 PM

I'm sure this has been asked a million times... but...

On a 720p LCD, should I set the A2 to 720p or 1080i?

jdbluray2

11-10-07, 09:57 PM

Soundsandbytes

11-10-07, 11:14 PM

I just got around to upgrade the firmware on my A2 to ver 1.7 and I went back to check if ver 2.5 was available; it was, so I went to upgrade but a message came on that said software was already upgraded. How come it didn't let me upgrade to 2.5?

Sorry for the newbie question :(
Hey, I am a newbie as well.. hope this helps, but did you at least power cycle your A2 prior to trying the update to 2.5? I would not think you can do one upgrade after an other without a "reboot" in between.
Try that and let us know if that was the case.

jdbluray2

11-11-07, 04:23 AM

No, it didn't work...if by "power cycle" and reboot you mean if I physically unplugged the unit and waited a couple minutes and turned it on then yes...I did do that but nothing. Even though it gives me the option to upgrade to 2.5 it still gives the same error msg that says that the software was already upgraded. I'm following everything to the letter. I don't understand what's wrong?

TreyS

11-11-07, 09:25 AM

stevec325

11-11-07, 10:48 AM

I'm sure this has been asked a million times... but...

On a 720p LCD, should I set the A2 to 720p or 1080i?

And the answer reamins the same...

Whatever looks best to you. I run at 1080i, but 720p may look better to you. Try both, with several discs & stick with the one you like best :)

maxdb

11-11-07, 02:31 PM

I should have also noted that Consumer Reports rates the HD-XA2 Excellent in all 3 categories. So according to CR, the XA2 is much better than the A2 in video DVD @480p. Hmmm ... does that reflect the experiences of owners here?

Finally, CR rates the HD-A20 identical to the A2 in terms of PQ.

The A-20 is screwed up when it comes to 1080p - this has been widely reported in many reviews. I'm not sure I'd trust Consumer Reports' image quality assessments any more than I trust their audio quality assessments. I don't think they have dedicated "home theater" or "stereo" people viewing or listening to various products. Nor am I at all sure whether they take the time to determine if they are using the optimum user menu settings on players or displays to get the most from any given product.

That said, you mis-represented CRs product ratings... they aren't Excellent, Fair, etc. the "Empty Circle" means "average" as in pretty much like other products in the group. Half red means better than average and a full red circle is much better than average. Half black is worse than average and all black is much worse than average. The ratings are important to understand because they shift around depending on what they are evaluating. If they are evaluating inexpensive products... the ratings are based on the performance of that lower-cost group of products... so an "average" rating there would not be as good as an "average" rating for a group of more expensive products (assuming the more expensive products were delivering more performance for the added cost... not ALWAYS the case, but often it is true).

rdclark

11-11-07, 02:53 PM

The ratings are important to understand because they shift around depending on what they are evaluating. If they are evaluating inexpensive products... the ratings are based on the performance of that lower-cost group of products... so an "average" rating there would not be as good as an "average" rating for a group of more expensive products (assuming the more expensive products were delivering more performance for the added cost... not ALWAYS the case, but often it is true).

I don't believe that to be the case, exactly. CR calculates a standard for a particular product category, and the ratings for any product they test in that category are comparable to those for any other. So the PQ ratings for all HDTVs are comparable for those for all others. That's why, for such products, they have scores (on a scale of 0 to 100) as well as ratings (relative to other products in the category. You can compare their score for a 50" plasma to the score for a 42" LCD.

If the categories themselves are different, then the ratings aren't comparable. "Home Theater in a Box" is a different product category from "Hi Fi Speakers," and therefore the "sound quality" scores can't be directly compared. Sometimes the product categories are based on price class, but not usually... which is how they arrive at their "Best Buy" label, which identifies products they think perform as well as more expensive models.

Having said all that, I entirely agree that CR is useful only for people who are ignorant of the products covered and don't really want to learn more.

maxdb

11-12-07, 03:18 AM

Anyone know if there is a way to correct the black crush with the A2? I'm using FW 2.5 and the image is poor when using an HDMI --> DVI cable vs Component. Component looks great but the color is better with HDMI (on my TV).

In the opening scene of the Transformers HD-DVD, when Optimus Prime is talking about "the cube", you lose alot of dark detail with the HDMi--> DVI cable and IMO it's not worth watching. Same with the opening scenes of SW EpIII. Lots of very dark scenes that lose detail.

Any fixes or suggestions? Should I get the A3 instead? Does the XA2 also have the black crush problem?

Thanks!

You don't have "black crush" you just don't have the output of the A2 set correctly for a DVI video display. HDMI is a YCbCr... that's black & white with 2 color difference channels. DVI is an RGB interface with black having a value of 16, 16, 16 (3 colors, each set to 16) and white having a value of 235, 235, 235 (computers use 0 for black and 255 for white).

I don't see parameters in the A2 menu to get around this difference in video formats. If your video display doesn't have an option to select the type of input, it looks like you may be stuck with incompatible disc player and video display combination. HDMI is normally a YCbCr format while DVI is normally an RGB 16-235 format. If you can switch your video display to YCbCr mode, you should be OK. If you can't, then the disc player has to be able to do that and it doesn't look like the A2 can. You will probably have to look at the Owner's Manual for each player to see if any of them offer that choice in the Setup menu.

What happens if you use a test/setup DVD in the A2 to help you calibrate the Contrast & Brightness settings on your video display? There are patterns to help you set the black level and the white level. The A2 should be set to 1080i output mode. It MIGHT be possible to get the brightness level set OK even though the output of the A2 and input of your TV aren't the same, you may be able to tune out the problem with adjustments - or not. It's worth a try.

TreyS

11-12-07, 08:23 AM

LarryChanin

11-12-07, 10:42 AM

You don't have "black crush" you just don't have the output of the A2 set correctly for a DVI video display. HDMI is a YCbCr... that's black & white with 2 color difference channels. DVI is an RGB interface with black having a value of 16, 16, 16 (3 colors, each set to 16) and white having a value of 235, 235, 235 (computers use 0 for black and 255 for white).

I don't see parameters in the A2 menu to get around this difference in video formats. If your video display doesn't have an option to select the type of input, it looks like you may be stuck with incompatible disc player and video display combination. HDMI is normally a YCbCr format while DVI is normally an RGB 16-235 format. If you can switch your video display to YCbCr mode, you should be OK. If you can't, then the disc player has to be able to do that and it doesn't look like the A2 can. You will probably have to look at the Owner's Manual for each player to see if any of them offer that choice in the Setup menu.

What happens if you use a test/setup DVD in the A2 to help you calibrate the Contrast & Brightness settings on your video display? There are patterns to help you set the black level and the white level. The A2 should be set to 1080i output mode. It MIGHT be possible to get the brightness level set OK even though the output of the A2 and input of your TV aren't the same, you may be able to tune out the problem with adjustments - or not. It's worth a try.

Thanks Max, With the A2 connected via HDMi to DVI cable, I have tweeked my Sony GWIII settings with the THX Optimizer and for the contrast, I only get one solid white box vs the eight I should be seeing. For the Brightness, I can't even see the THX logo at all or the seventh black box. I lose it at the fourth black box. Conponent looks fine but then I can't upconvert my SD-DVDs.

Can the XA2 adjust the settings in the player? If so I may need to get that one instead plus the analog outs would work with my receiver anyway.

Thanks!

Hi Max,

Included in the "infamous" version 2.5 firmware upgrade there was an enhancement called RGB Output range selection that was supposed to address the issue that you describe effecting DVI displays.

Here's Toshiba's documentation:

HD DVD player HD-A2 / HD-A2W / HD-D2 Firmware Version 2.5 (http://tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-images/generaldocs/0912Ver2.5UpdateNoteA2.pdf)

Unfortunately, I believe it does not work for most folks, :( but a few people have reported some positive results.

Trey:

You might want to give the enhancement a try. You'll find it added to the Picture menu items after the 2.5 update.

In answer to your question about the HD-XA2, I have been able to use the Brightness and Constrast settings on the HD-XA2 to get an image virtually identical to my Component Video settings. I had to turn up the Brightness and turn down the Contrast.

Word has it that a fix to the 2.5 update is supposed to come out probably this week. I don't know whether it will make the RGB Output range selection feature more effective, but before trading up your player you might want to wait a few days to see.

Larry

TreyS

11-12-07, 12:29 PM

LarryChanin

11-12-07, 02:47 PM

Thanks Larry! I toggled both settings without seeing any affects. I'll wait and see if 2.6 fixes the issue.

It would seem like Toshiba could add the brigtness and contrast settings to the A2 as well unless it's a hardware limitation.

Hi Trey,

Yes, I didn't have any luck using the RGB settings either on my HD-XA2, but nevertheless I thought it was worth a try. The good news is that Toshiba apparently recognizes the DVI problem that Max so clearly describes. The bad news is their first attempt at addressing the problem doesn't work for the vast majority of owners. :(

I believe that the third generation players don't suffer this problem, so maybe with a bit more effort Toshiba can resolve it in the next firmware upgrade. I've got my fingers crossed. ;)

Larry

spa

11-13-07, 09:11 AM

maxdb

11-13-07, 11:40 AM

Thanks Max, With the A2 connected via HDMi to DVI cable, I have tweeked my Sony GWIII settings with the THX Optimizer and for the contrast, I only get one solid white box vs the eight I should be seeing. For the Brightness, I can't even see the THX logo at all or the seventh black box. I lose it at the fourth black box. Conponent looks fine but then I can't upconvert my SD-DVDs.

Can the XA2 adjust the settings in the player? If so I may need to get that one instead plus the analog outs would work with my receiver anyway.

Thanks!

I would recommend going to the Toshiba web site and download the XA2 and A35 Owner Manuals to see if the YCbCr/RGB 16-235 option is available in Setup. You definitely have the black and white values screwed up from the interfaces being incompatible.

Analog outputs are not a very good solution... most (all?) AVR/processors don't do anything to the multi-channel analog inputs... just sends them to the amplifiers with no processing, no level setting, no distance compensation. That means the disc player has to have all those adjustments or you end up with completely uncalibrated audio. I don't know if the XA2 or A35 have detailed adjustments for the speakers (size, distance, level, subwoofer crossover, subwoofer level, etc.) or not. If they do, the analog outputs would be useful if you can do audio via HDMI.

LarryChanin

11-13-07, 02:50 PM

I would recommend going to the Toshiba web site and download the XA2 and A35 Owner Manuals to see if the YCbCr/RGB 16-235 option is available in Setup. You definitely have the black and white values screwed up from the interfaces being incompatible.

Hi max,

Both the HD-XA2 and the HD-A2 have the RGB Output range selection option that I described in posting #4785 designed to deal with this situation. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. This setting won't be found in the manuals since they were added in firmware upgrade 2.5.

Analog outputs are not a very good solution... most (all?) AVR/processors don't do anything to the multi-channel analog inputs... just sends them to the amplifiers with no processing, no level setting, no distance compensation. That means the disc player has to have all those adjustments or you end up with completely uncalibrated audio. I don't know if the XA2 or A35 have detailed adjustments for the speakers (size, distance, level, subwoofer crossover, subwoofer level, etc.) or not. If they do, the analog outputs would be useful if you can do audio via HDMI.

I think you are correct in that most AVR/processors merely pass the signals directly to the amplifiers. However, there are some such as the Lexicon MC-12 that digitizes the signal which permits the application of bass management and other post processing such as surround processing, i.e. 7.1 on playback, etc.

The HD-XA2 does have bass management adjustments. I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure that the HD-A35 would have it as well.

Larry

tn001d

11-13-07, 07:18 PM

I am not sure if i am in the right thread. But i noticed a difference with the A2 and XA2, which is annoying me.

I bought both units and had been using the A2 for about a week. I wasn't impressed with the A2 handling of SD-DVD and then switched to the XA2, which was much better :)

My AVR doesnt have HDMI, so i have been using optical digital out for audio. The A2 downcoverted the Dolby+ to DTS 1.5 bit rate, which i was very happy with. But the XA2 downcoverts to Dolby Digital - what the hell ! :mad:

I payed 4 times for the XA2 to make sure my SD-DVD look great with HQV, and i have to sacrifice audio ??? Dolby Digital is great, but transformers doesnt sound as good as it did with DTS at 1.5 rate.

Is this right? anyone else know about this?

Thanks

ab2ab

11-13-07, 07:27 PM

qbbraveheart

11-13-07, 07:56 PM

LastButNotLeast

11-13-07, 08:48 PM

does anyone else think that the "upconversion" of SD DVD's on the A2 is a little off and not that good? or is it just me!?!

I mean I cant even tell anymore...doesnt help that I need glasses either lol

I thought this was one of the better ones

As far as I'm concerned, it IS one of the better ones. Upconverts for me quite well; better than the Samsung DVR it replaced for that task. Not quite HD, but very nice.
May depend some on the source, too. Let's see what others think.

LastButNotLeast

11-13-07, 08:55 PM

Just stopped by Toshiba's site. Update 2.7 is available.
Good luck to all.

rebel318

11-13-07, 10:27 PM

noob question but i'm still learning! does the dvd player need to be set on 16:9 or 4:3?? it was set on 16:9 while watching transformers and looked perfect. Popped in Planet Earth and it was off a bit...set it to 4:3 and it fit the screen...

maxdb

11-14-07, 02:25 AM

does anyone else think that the "upconversion" of SD DVD's on the A2 is a little off and not that good? or is it just me!?!

I mean I cant even tell anymore...doesnt help that I need glasses either lol

I thought this was one of the better ones

It's not very good with DVD upconversion - no question about it. Anybody who says it is good, is seeing something very different or they aren't using a display with enough resolution to see the problems. On a 1080p display that resolves 1080p perfectly, DVDs are loaded with grain... the only exceptions are the very best DVDs... Finding Nemo, Robots, & X-Men 2 come to mind.

scaesare

11-14-07, 08:44 AM

rdclark

11-14-07, 08:46 AM

It's not very good with DVD upconversion - no question about it. Anybody who says it is good, is seeing something very different or they aren't using a display with enough resolution to see the problems. On a 1080p display that resolves 1080p perfectly, DVDs are loaded with grain... the only exceptions are the very best DVDs... Finding Nemo, Robots, & X-Men 2 come to mind.

Well, I'm seening something very different, because I say it's very good. I'm using a recent 42" 1080p Sharp Aquos, well calibrated, and I'm seeing upconversion on anamorphic SD DVDs like I Robot, Heroes S1, Serenity, and Rattatouille that looks spectacular. Softer than HD, certainly; occasional mild posterization on full-screen faces. No graininess that isn't in the source (film has grain, and you should be able to see it in dark scenes).

When you compare to HD the difference is obvious of course, but for SD DVDs one of the great thrills for me was the realization that my collection will remain eminently watchable.

Jgatie

11-14-07, 08:50 AM

It's not very good with DVD upconversion - no question about it. Anybody who says it is good, is seeing something very different or they aren't using a display with enough resolution to see the problems. On a 1080p display that resolves 1080p perfectly, DVDs are loaded with grain... the only exceptions are the very best DVDs... Finding Nemo, Robots, & X-Men 2 come to mind.

The "something very different" that everyone is seeing is an accurate representation of the original print, which includes film grain in all its warm, wonderful glory. The day actual films, complete with grain, come out on HDM looking like the shot-on-computer Finding Nemo, is the day I quit collecting films.

Once again - Grain is not "a problem", it is not an artifact, and it is not something to get rid of when you transfer to digital.

mczolton

11-14-07, 08:50 AM

... one of the great thrills for me was the realization that my collection will remain eminently watchable.

You're telling me. I just watched Boris Karloff's The Mummy and it looked great for a film shot in 1932 :D

ColdCase

11-14-07, 08:58 AM

It's not very good with DVD upconversion - no question about it. Anybody who says it is good, is seeing something very different or they aren't using a display with enough resolution to see the problems. On a 1080p display that resolves 1080p perfectly, DVDs are loaded with grain... the only exceptions are the very best DVDs... Finding Nemo, Robots, & X-Men 2 come to mind.

The A2 with a good 1080p native display is not going to hide the source video defects you are seeing. Its also not going to hide the grain efects the director intended. A common initial reaction is that the player is not that good. DVD authors (and camera operators) used to get away with low quality because equipment widely used by consumers hid the defects. If you turn all the noise reduction features on in player and display and sharpness way down, you may see something close to what you are used to.

ab2ab

11-14-07, 09:39 AM

pierrebnh

11-14-07, 09:49 AM

tkbryant

11-14-07, 01:02 PM

Well, I joined the HD-XA2 club today. Amazon just delivered my spanking new player. I'm gonna give it a try as my A2 was sent off yesterday for repair.

Just opened it and am currently downloading the new 2.7 firmware as it came installed with 1.5. It's a very nice looking player. Pics don't do it justice. Hopefully no audio issues with my Onkyo sr604 via HDMI. Maybe for Xhristmas, Santa will bring me a new HDMI 1.3 receiver so I can get the DTS-Master Audio off of my import discs. :)

Any tips or suggestions for settings?

petmic10

11-14-07, 03:16 PM

tkbryant

11-14-07, 03:27 PM

Congrats, it is a great player and firmware 2.7 is just icing on the cake.

Thanks!
Reinitialized after the update to 2.7. Set all my options, 1080p,speaker size, distance, etc. No problems so far. I am pleased to say I am getting massive bass off of Transformers just like my A2 did. However I have a question? Does the XA2 use a different sound proccessor? The surround effects sound more discreet and detailed than I was getting off of my A2.
I checked out Enemy At The Gates import and it does indeed read out DTS-Master Audio on the display screen. The agony of not having that receiver is killing me. :)

bvader

11-14-07, 04:30 PM

I posted this in the other A2 thread, but thought I'd try here too...

I'm trying to verify the DTS I'm getting from the HD-A2. Could someone validate the following, when playing back an HD-DVD:

1. The optical output sends DTS at 1.5Mbps.
2. It is in DTS 96/24 form.

I've searched the thread, but my results were inconclusive. Thanks.

My Denon 2105 is reporting DTS @ 48Khz will look further...

From the DTS site...
http://www.dtsonline.com/consumer/technology/faq.php

What is 96/24?

More recording is being done at a 96kHz sampling rate and at 24 bits. DTS has always had 24-bit capability, and DTS 96/24 adds the 96kHz capability. It is fully compatible with existing DTS decoders, which will output 96/24 tracks at 48kHz. DTS 96/24 is the only commercially-available system that:

* provides 5.1 channels of 96/24 along with full-motion video on DVD-Video and DVD-Audio (video zone),
* is compatible with all DVD-Video players, and
* is accessible through the digital output.

pierrebnh

11-14-07, 05:44 PM

My Denon 2105 is reporting DTS @ 48Khz will look further...
[...]

Thanks for taking the time. My AVR doesn't support DTS 96/24. I'm trying to build up my case for a new pre-pro and gathering all my facts.

Kosty

11-14-07, 06:10 PM

Please vote in this poll on your 2.7 update experience (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12218599#post12218599)

Poll on your 2.7 Upgrade Experience - Method used and Issues.

ab2ab

11-14-07, 08:37 PM

My XA1 upconversion is substantially better than my A2, hopefully the XA2 arriving tomorrow will even beat the XA1.

From what I've been reading on the other threads, you're going to be very happy with the XA2's upconverting ability. Enjoy!

kezug

11-14-07, 09:54 PM

What is the difference between G2 A2 and A2? (Sorry, but I didnt see this right up front and couldnt spend hours looking for the diff?) TIA

jpeter1093

11-15-07, 11:21 AM

What is the difference between G2 A2 and A2? (Sorry, but I didnt see this right up front and couldnt spend hours looking for the diff?) TIA

No difference, G2 just denotes Generation 2. It's really superflous to write that since there was no G1 A2. The G1 was called the A1.

kezug

11-15-07, 12:00 PM

So, the Tosh A2 I just purchased during the $98 sale is a "G2"?
If so, why the seperate threads between A2's in the sticky?

Jgatie

11-15-07, 12:33 PM

So, the Tosh A2 I just purchased during the $98 sale is a "G2"?
If so, why the seperate threads between A2's in the sticky?

The sticky goes back to the first release of these players. It was describing the G2's in general and the A2/XA2 in particular.

rpauls

11-15-07, 12:36 PM

Hi Max,

Included in the "infamous" version 2.5 firmware upgrade there was an enhancement called RGB Output range selection that was supposed to address the issue that you describe effecting DVI displays.

Here's Toshiba's documentation:

HD DVD player HD-A2 / HD-A2W / HD-D2 Firmware Version 2.5 (http://tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-images/generaldocs/0912Ver2.5UpdateNoteA2.pdf)

Unfortunately, I believe it does not work for most folks, :( but a few people have reported some positive results.

Trey:

You might want to give the enhancement a try. You'll find it added to the Picture menu items after the 2.5 update.

In answer to your question about the HD-XA2, I have been able to use the Brightness and Constrast settings on the HD-XA2 to get an image virtually identical to my Component Video settings. I had to turn up the Brightness and turn down the Contrast.

Word has it that a fix to the 2.5 update is supposed to come out probably this week. I don't know whether it will make the RGB Output range selection feature more effective, but before trading up your player you might want to wait a few days to see.

Larry

Question: What is this RGB range feature supposed to do if it worked? Is it just a simple limiter so that all levels 0-15 get mapped to 16 and all levels 235-255 get mapped to 235, or is it something more?

THanks,
Rich

qaiser007

11-15-07, 01:13 PM

Jgatie

11-15-07, 01:19 PM

I got the HD-A2 from Walmart a few weeks ago. If i'm playing an SD DVD and stop the movie and then press the play button it resumes from the point that I stopped it. If I'm watching an HD DVD movie and press the stop button the movies goes back to the beginning when I press play which is annoying! Has anyone else experienced this?

Resume is disk dependent in both HD DVD and BD. The disk has to include the 'bookmark' feature to allow resume, and you have to set a bookmark before you hit 'Stop'. Advanced authoring does not allow for a hardware resume for some reason. One of the bad things about the bleeding edge.

qaiser007

11-15-07, 01:29 PM

Resume is disk dependent in both HD DVD and BD. The disk has to include the 'bookmark' feature to allow resume, and you have to set a bookmark before you hit 'Stop'. Advanced authoring does not allow for a hardware resume for some reason. One of the bad things about the bleeding edge.

Thanks for the info, i'll try using the bookmarks if I want to stop and resume the movie next time!

simon_templar_32

11-15-07, 02:09 PM

I am considering the xa2, but I am concerned about the reports of fan noise. How noisy is it compared, for example, to a (Panny 900) front projector (rated at 25db's in eco mode)?

sergiohm

11-15-07, 03:53 PM

I am considering the xa2, but I am concerned about the reports of fan noise. How noisy is it compared, for example, to a (Panny 900) front projector (rated at 25db's in eco mode)?

What fan noise? I can't hear a thing, it is very silent. It is not a PS3 :)

LarryChanin

11-15-07, 05:36 PM

I am considering the xa2, but I am concerned about the reports of fan noise. How noisy is it compared, for example, to a (Panny 900) front projector (rated at 25db's in eco mode)?

Hi,

This thread may be of interest to you. In this poll 70% of the respondents indicated that their HD-XA2 was quiet, and 30% indicated that it was loud.

XA2 Fan / Operational Volume / Noise Poll (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=931463)

Larry

maxdb

11-15-07, 09:26 PM

Those are movies shot on film. With grain. If you are seeing it more accuratley (and not MPEG2 mosquito noise), that's a good thing.

Finding Nemo and Robots are CGI, no film involved in the transfer.

In case you're not aware, DVD resolution is too low to resolve film grain unless it is severe... night scenes shot on film require high-speed film and push processing... things that both make the grain larger, more visible, and resolvable on DVD. The grain visible in DVDs upconverted by many disc players and video displays comes from poor upconversion... period. Expensive video processors and video displays (like the $7500 Pioneer Elite Kuro displays) will upconvert DVDs without grain - unless the DVD looks bad on a standard def display... there are limits.

maxdb

11-15-07, 09:32 PM

The A2 with a good 1080p native display is not going to hide the source video defects you are seeing. Its also not going to hide the grain efects the director intended. A common initial reaction is that the player is not that good. DVD authors (and camera operators) used to get away with low quality because equipment widely used by consumers hid the defects. If you turn all the noise reduction features on in player and display and sharpness way down, you may see something close to what you are used to.

An A2 won't hide DVD artifacts because it CAUSES the artifacts. Connect it to a video processor or high-end video display that does PROPER upconversion of DVD and switch the A2 back and forth between 480i and 1080i to see how lame the A2 is at DVD upconversion. The 480i will ALWAYS KILL the 1080i output from DVD sources. The Pioneer Elite Kuro plasmas and Lumagen video processors are examples of products that will make the A2 look as broken as it is.

maxdb

11-15-07, 09:41 PM

LastButNotLeast

11-15-07, 10:15 PM

The Pioneer Elite Kuro plasmas and Lumagen video processors are examples of products that will make the A2 look as broken as it is.

It's not broken, it's $100; there's a difference. I'm not likely to connect a $100 DVD player to a $1000 video processor.
I'm thrilled with my A2's handling of HD. I'm perfectly happy that it upconverts better than my previous DVD player. I'm overjoyed there's a Blockbuster on my way home from work that rents HD's.
I'm not looking to compete with someone with stacked projectors and a 10 foot screen. And that person probably wouldn't buy an A2.
As Sheryl Crow says, "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have." To each his own.

osage

11-15-07, 10:20 PM

I am considering the xa2, but I am concerned about the reports of fan noise. How noisy is it compared, for example, to a (Panny 900) front projector (rated at 25db's in eco mode)?

My XA2 is as quiet as a mouse. I highly recommend that you run out and buy one ASAP. You won't be disappointed.

bvader

11-16-07, 12:36 AM

Folks how do I determine my A2's build date..Mine was made in Japan but I where do I find the build date...just curious...

Also realllllly stupid question....I have a total of 4 bar codes a lumped togther on the box...do I just cut-em-al-out-out and send them in with the free movie offer???....sorry...looked in the top FAQs but didn't see it...its late feel free to pummel me...

ColdCase

11-16-07, 06:25 AM

An A2 won't hide DVD artifacts because it CAUSES the artifacts. Connect it to a video processor or high-end video display that does PROPER upconversion of DVD and switch the A2 back and forth between 480i and 1080i to see how lame the A2 is at DVD upconversion. The 480i will ALWAYS KILL the 1080i output from DVD sources. The Pioneer Elite Kuro plasmas and Lumagen video processors are examples of products that will make the A2 look as broken as it is.

Sorry maxdb, I misinterpreted what you were saying. I thought you may be falling into the trap of going from a 480 or 768 display to a 1080 display and wondering why all your DVDs look like crap. I think your comment that Nemo & Robots were an exception to those DVD's loaded with grain threw me off.

There are certainly better SD upconverting systems than the A2, but at $100 probably not. The $400 XA2 has a nice one for example. Even with that, I often prefer watching SD DVDs on the 10 year old 480p pioneer 600 disk carousel player hooked to the 6010 via component because the PQ is sometimes better to my eye (not necessary more accurate, but I like it).... and I don't have to get out of my easy chair to pick a DVD. :) You don't need much processing in a player or cable box when you have a kuro TV.

pierrebnh

11-16-07, 07:27 AM

It all depends on WHAT DTS you are using. Core DTS files from DTS-HD are 1.5Mbps... DTS itself CAN be 1.5Mbps but it is not required, it could be a lower bit rate. DTS (core or original) is a 48kHz format with 16 or 20 bits. DTS 96/24 is a specialty format - if the disc does not carry the DTS 96/24 logo, it's not.

Please read the post again, you've misunderstood.

scaesare

11-16-07, 08:48 AM

Finding Nemo and Robots are CGI, no film involved in the transfer.

In case you're not aware, DVD resolution is too low to resolve film grain unless it is severe... night scenes shot on film require high-speed film and push processing... things that both make the grain larger, more visible, and resolvable on DVD. The grain visible in DVDs upconverted by many disc players and video displays comes from poor upconversion... period. Expensive video processors and video displays (like the $7500 Pioneer Elite Kuro displays) will upconvert DVDs without grain - unless the DVD looks bad on a standard def display... there are limits.

However, you said that Nemo & Robots were an exception to those DVD's loaded with grain:

On a 1080p display that resolves 1080p perfectly, DVDs are loaded with grain... the only exceptions are the very best DVDs... Finding Nemo, Robots, & X-Men 2 come to mind.

Thus you are taking issue with the HDA2's upscaling with discs OTHER than those examples. And my point is that such other discs are shot on film. With grain.

And even a 480 encode will have a noticeable visual impact from a grainy source, as your comments even note.

Hence blaming the A2 for grainy sources doesn't make sense.

Jgatie

11-16-07, 10:30 AM

bvader

11-16-07, 10:34 AM

Thanks....
Huh..huh....oh....sure...Universal Product Code...
And yeah I know what they look like but on my box it has a sticker with like 4 of them...I guess I will just cut out the whole ball-o-wax..would hate to wait three months just to get back a ...sorry sir wrong code....

ColdCase

11-16-07, 12:15 PM

maxdb

11-16-07, 12:38 PM

Question: What is this RGB range feature supposed to do if it worked? Is it just a simple limiter so that all levels 0-15 get mapped to 16 and all levels 235-255 get mapped to 235, or is it something more?

THanks,
Rich

What the 2 choices do, depends on how the program is encoded. If the program is encoded in 16-235 andyou select 0-255 for the output, nothing bad should happen... unless the output device tries to turn 16 into 0 and 235 into 255, that would be a mistake, but possible.

If the source is 0-255 and the player is set to 16-235, the blacks and whites will be clipped... you would see that easily in a 20-step gray scale.

"Normal" HDMI is a YCbCr format (luminance and 2 color difference channels) that are derived from RGB. DVI stayed in RGB space so there's an issue with how the YCbCr-to-RGB conversion is done when changing formats... that's another place where errors can be introduced.

It looks like the problem with the A2 is that you can't specify YCbCr or RGB output in another menu choice... that means the A2 has to get some communication from the display that the display wants 16-235 or 0-255... if that communication doesn't happen, the A2 would not switch tot he right mode if it had defaulted tot he wrong mode. It all goes back to DVI being a stop-gap interface... obsolete the day it first appeared on video displays. A screw-job for consumers. It might have been better if they had skipped DVI altogether until HDMI was ready.

stevec325

11-16-07, 03:13 PM

The barcode you want is the UPC. It looks just like the one you find on a can of corn.

Trivia Time: What does 'UPC' stand for?

Anyone? Bueller? :D

Universal Product Code.

decktard

11-16-07, 03:27 PM

Sorry if this has been posted here before, however; the search function doesn't let me look for "dvd+r."

Does the HD-A2 (or A1 or A3 for that matter) play DVD+R and DVD+R DL discs? It looks as though -R is listed on Toshiba's site, however; +R is not. I've seen reviews where people have mentioned +R played in their players. I'm not sure what to believe.

Thanks!

EclipseDS

11-16-07, 03:38 PM

decktard

11-16-07, 04:29 PM

+R is not supported. However, if you have a burner that can do bit setting, it will work.

Thanks for the quick reply. I've never looked into the bitsetting/booktype thing before because I've never had to worry about it. Lucky for me it looks like my dvd burners (NEC-3550A and 3520A) both automatically set +R discs to DVD-ROM. Whew... hopefully I lucked out. I'll find out on Monday.

unclewebb

11-16-07, 04:46 PM

DVD+R is not officially supported by Toshiba but many users have reported no problems using these discs in their HD DVD players. I don't think they were all using bitsetting/booktype to do it.

usualsuspects

11-16-07, 05:42 PM

I have never had a problem on the XA2 playing +R single or dual layer DVD's. +R CD's have also worked perfectly for firmware updates.

andy sullivan

11-16-07, 06:13 PM

Is there a possible future software upgrade that will allow for playback of JPEG? I hate not being able to watch snapshots on my TV.

LastButNotLeast

11-16-07, 07:25 PM

Is there a possible future software upgrade that will allow for playback of JPEG? I hate not being able to watch snapshots on my TV.

May as well ask for MP3 playback ability, too. It's a Linux computer, so why not?

decktard

11-17-07, 08:36 AM

Thanks for the quick reply. I've never looked into the bitsetting/booktype thing before because I've never had to worry about it. Lucky for me it looks like my dvd burners (NEC-3550A and 3520A) both automatically set +R discs to DVD-ROM. Whew... hopefully I lucked out. I'll find out on Monday.

Actually... I just got it. I'm all good.

Thanks all.

spa

11-17-07, 01:45 PM

What the 2 choices do, depends on how the program is encoded. If the program is encoded in 16-235 andyou select 0-255 for the output, nothing bad should happen... unless the output device tries to turn 16 into 0 and 235 into 255, that would be a mistake, but possible.If the source is 0-255 and the player is set to 16-235, the blacks and whites will be clipped... you would see that easily in a 20-step gray scale.

For DVD the source is always encoded the same, 4:2:0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling) YCrCb with a value range of 16 (black) to 235 (white).

The problem isn't with the source, it is with the conversion from YCrCb to RGB (which maxdb hints at in his next comment). DVI is a PC cabling standard and thus it expects PC RGB values which range from 0 (black) to 255 (white). I assume the RGB setting on the A2 allows selecting whether the RGB is output using PC levels (0-255) or video levels (16-235).

If the conversion outputs to PC levels you'll lose below black and above white values, which you can see by using a video calibration disk. (There are other causes of clipping, which has confused the discussion because some say that the RGB change in the A2 didn't solve anything, when in reality it did but there were other things clipping the signal.)

"Normal" HDMI is a YCbCr format (luminance and 2 color difference channels) that are derived from RGB. DVI stayed in RGB space so there's an issue with how the YCbCr-to-RGB conversion is done when changing formats... that's another place where errors can be introduced.

Since the source is always the same, that conversion is the only place where errors can be introduced for DVD.
the A2 has to get some communication from the display that the display wants 16-235 or 0-255... if that communication doesn't happen, the A2 would not switch tot he right mode if it had defaulted tot he wrong mode.

There is no protocol to handshake that information between device and display. You have to know and set it manually. Aside from the issue of clipping below black, either can work; you just have to calibrate your display accordingly.

It all goes back to DVI being a stop-gap interface... obsolete the day it first appeared on video displays. A screw-job for consumers. It might have been better if they had skipped DVI altogether until HDMI was ready.
DVI wasn't stop-gap IMO, it was and is a useful standard for the PC. If you mean that using for video is stop-gap that makes sense. SDI is a better choice, though not commonly available.

maxdb

11-18-07, 02:36 AM

However, you said that Nemo & Robots were an exception to those DVD's loaded with grain:

Thus you are taking issue with the HDA2's upscaling with discs OTHER than those examples. And my point is that such other discs are shot on film. With grain.

And even a 480 encode will have a noticeable visual impact from a grainy source, as your comments even note.

Hence blaming the A2 for grainy sources doesn't make sense.

Except X-Men 2 was shot on film with grain and the A2 upconverts it without it looking grainy. Go figure.

480 resolution is not enough resolution to resolve FILM GRAIN. So the grain in most A2-upconverted DVDs is NOT film grain, it's from the poor job the A2 does. How do we know the A2 does a poor job?

Because DVDs that are upconverted by the A2 that look grainy (most titles with a limited number of exceptions... mostly CGI animation and a few shot on film) do NOT look grainy when upconverted from 480i (using the A2 set to 480i) into a Pioneer Elite Kuro 60" plasma with the Elite Kuro doing the upconversion.

Is this an unfair comparison? Yes. ($100-$300 disc player versus $7500 video display). Is it a worthwhile comparison? Yes. Because if you do not know what is possible (in regards to how well DVDs can be upconverted), you cannot know whether the lower cost product is really doing a good job or not.

If someone pays $98 or even $198 for an A2 it is quite a value for what it can display from HD DVDs alone. But people are saying is is "great" at upconverting DVD and it is clearly NOT great. It actually produces pretty unattractive results from things like Lord of the Rings while the Elite Kuro makes LOTR look pretty good and grain-free in comparison.

maxdb

11-18-07, 02:53 AM

DVI is a PC cabling standard and thus it expects PC RGB values which range from 0 (black) to 255 (white). I assume the RGB setting on the A2 allows selecting whether the RGB is output using PC levels (0-255) or video levels (16-235).

DVI wasn't stop-gap IMO, it was and is a useful standard for the PC. If you mean that using for video is stop-gap that makes sense. SDI is a better choice, though not commonly available.

In the consumer video display, disc player, and set-top-box world, DVI interfaces are 16-235 RGB. I don't know what DVI standards are in computers... never used or saw a computer that had DVI. My presumption is that DVI was 16-235 in the consumer market because 16-235 is ecoded in the software.

Consumer products that have the proper array of settings for their HDMI inputs (or outputs) have 3 options: YCbCr which is "normal" for HDMI to HDMI connections; 16-235 RGB which is "normal" for DVI to HDMI connections; and 0-255 which is "normal" for PC connections.

The A2 has only 2 options, making for confusion, enhanced black and standard black which turn out to be 0-255 and 16-235. When does the A2 output YCbCr which it must when using the HDMI connection to an HDMI display that is set to YCbCr? There is no A2 menu setting for YCbCr... it knows from the handshake with the connected video display.

Since this is a consumer video forum thread dealing mostly with consumer video displays and consumer disc players... of course I wasn't referring to the DVI interface used in computers. DVI for consumer products was a rush-to-market digital video solution that manufacturers KNEW was going to be a PITA for a long time. And since SDI is pro connection with little or no presence in consumer products, it's not even in the running. We're stuck with HDMI, DVI, and component for the most part. Exceptions exist, but they are rare.

sergiohm

11-18-07, 08:20 AM

Except X-Men 2 was shot on film with grain and the A2 upconverts it without it looking grainy. Go figure.

480 resolution is not enough resolution to resolve FILM GRAIN. So the grain in most A2-upconverted DVDs is NOT film grain, it's from the poor job the A2 does. How do we know the A2 does a poor job?

Because DVDs that are upconverted by the A2 that look grainy (most titles with a limited number of exceptions... mostly CGI animation and a few shot on film) do NOT look grainy when upconverted from 480i (using the A2 set to 480i) into a Pioneer Elite Kuro 60" plasma with the Elite Kuro doing the upconversion.

Is this an unfair comparison? Yes. ($100-$300 disc player versus $7500 video display). Is it a worthwhile comparison? Yes. Because if you do not know what is possible (in regards to how well DVDs can be upconverted), you cannot know whether the lower cost product is really doing a good job or not.

If someone pays $98 or even $198 for an A2 it is quite a value for what it can display from HD DVDs alone. But people are saying is is "great" at upconverting DVD and it is clearly NOT great. It actually produces pretty unattractive results from things like Lord of the Rings while the Elite Kuro makes LOTR look pretty good and grain-free in comparison.

Well here is a review (http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/toshiba-hd-a2/4505-6463_7-32074340.html). I think the section on how the HD-A2 handles DVDs is pretty good, it is not the XA-2 but it is certainly compatible with the price (especially for those who bought at $99). Ok, the Oppo may be better at upconverting (but for those that bought the A2 at $99 that is a $50 increase) but it does not play HD-DVD either. The Kuro for the price must have an excellent processing section so I'm not surprised it would surpass a $200 or less DVD player. For those with lesser displays than the Kuro (who may be also getting lower resolution) the HD-A2 is indeed a "great" upconverting DVD, the artifacts you see might not be apparent to them.

Take care,

spa

11-18-07, 09:11 AM

In the consumer video display, disc player, and set-top-box world, DVI interfaces are 16-235 RGB. I don't know what DVI standards are in computers... never used or saw a computer that had DVI. My presumption is that DVI was 16-235 in the consumer market because 16-235 is ecoded in the software.You've likely seen a computer with DVI and definitely seen a computer display with it as almost all computer LCD flat panels since 2000 have supported DVI inputs. (While on-board graphics are still often VGA, most video cards support either DVI, or DVI/VGA.)

Consumer products that have the proper array of settings for their HDMI inputs (or outputs) have 3 options: YCbCr which is "normal" for HDMI to HDMI connections; 16-235 RGB which is "normal" for DVI to HDMI connections; and 0-255 which is "normal" for PC connections.

The A2 has only 2 options, making for confusion, enhanced black and standard black which turn out to be 0-255 and 16-235. When does the A2 output YCbCr which it must when using the HDMI connection to an HDMI display that is set to YCbCr? There is no A2 menu setting for YCbCr... it knows from the handshake with the connected video display.

There is no such handshake for YCbCr to DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvi) devices, as DVI doesn't support YCbCr. Since HDMI is backwardly compatible with DVI, it knows to use RGB when communicating with a DVI device.

Since this is a consumer video forum thread dealing mostly with consumer video displays and consumer disc players... of course I wasn't referring to the DVI interface used in computers.

I woudn't assume its obvious, given that DVI originated in the computer space. That's why I clarified. For you it was obvious since DVI's use in computers wasn't on your radar, but for others like me it may not be. (I work in computers, by the way.)

DVI for consumer products was a rush-to-market digital video solution that manufacturers KNEW was going to be a PITA for a long time. And since SDI is pro connection with little or no presence in consumer products, it's not even in the running. We're stuck with HDMI, DVI, and component for the most part. Exceptions exist, but they are rare.
Given the way DVI made it into CE devices I'd say demand drove the feature. As noted above, LCD computer displays started getting DVI for computer use. As time went on people began to use LCD displays for computers and TV both. As a result almost all LCD TVs have DVI as an option. Given the presence of a DVI input on those displays, CE manufacters started supporting it in response to demand. Now that creates a conflict, because PC RGB and video RGB are obviously different. Which should be used? DVI doesn't have a means to specify that information because it is a successor to VGA on computers.

Ultimately we agree--that has definitely produced a PITA because it makes it easy for firmware writers to make "mistakes" given the plethora of options out there. Using PC RGB levels on a CE device is one example. DVI is spec'ed to use PC RGB, so that isn't wrong. But people who calibrate want to see their below black appear. I assume that's why they went with an option. Either can be calibrated correctly.

LarryChanin

11-18-07, 10:03 AM

The A2 has only 2 options, making for confusion, enhanced black and standard black which turn out to be 0-255 and 16-235. When does the A2 output YCbCr which it must when using the HDMI connection to an HDMI display that is set to YCbCr? There is no A2 menu setting for YCbCr... it knows from the handshake with the connected video display.

There is no such handshake for YCbCr to DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvi) devices, as DVI doesn't support YCbCr. Since HDMI is backwardly compatible with DVI, it knows to use RGB when communicating with a DVI device.

Ultimately we agree--that has definitely produced a PITA because it makes it easy for firmware writers to make "mistakes" given the plethora of options out there. Using PC RGB levels on a CE device is one example. DVI is spec'ed to use PC RGB, so that isn't wrong. But people who calibrate want to see their below black appear. I assume that's why they went with an option. Either can be calibrated correctly.

Hi spa,

Thanks for your participation in this thread.

I conclude that there has to be something wrong with the second generation Toshibas because other source devices such as an HD TiVo connected via HDMI to DVI, or an Bravo D2 upconverting player connected via DVI to DVI, do not have a loss of shadow detail when connected to the same DVI display. Only the Toshibas yield a darker image (darker than the component video image which doesn't have this problem).

The fact that other source devices with DVI connections do not suffer a loss of shadow detail suggests that the problem is not a fundamental limitation of the type of digital video connection, but rather a problem with Toshiba's particular implimentation of DVI. This is further reenforced by the fact that the HD-A3's do not have this problem when connected to DVI displays.

I am fortunate in that I can use the Brightness and Contrast picture settings on my HD-XA2 to obtain a good image. However, there is absolutely no difference in the image using either of the RGB settings.

Now, if the RGB Output Level Selection enhancement were properly working, shouldn't we expect the resulting black levels on the two settings be different?

Thanks.

Larry

maxdb

11-19-07, 03:36 AM

For those with lesser displays than the Kuro (who may be also getting lower resolution) the HD-A2 is indeed a "great" upconverting DVD, the artifacts you see might not be apparent to them.

Take care,

A $3000 Sony SXRD RPTV (1080p, 60") and a $1000 Sharp 720p LCD flat panel also reveal the noisy (grainy) upconversion the A2 produces. On the Sharp, DVDs look better going in as 480i from the A2 than they do from 720p or 1080i. Any lower res than 720p and there's no upconversion going on.

That said, the A2 is no worse than the Sony S1 or S300 Blu-ray players that sell for $800 and $500. So if some "reviewer" compares the A2 to typical high-def players that have no on-board video processor, they should not say the upconversion is "good" because it is NOT good. Not every reviewer has seen an Elite Kuro upconvert 480i DVD so they may not know how good it can be. Heck, every reviewer may not have seen an XA2 upconvert DVDs for that matter.

maxdb

11-19-07, 03:51 AM

There is no such handshake for YCbCr to DVI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvi) devices, as DVI doesn't support YCbCr. Since HDMI is backwardly compatible with DVI, it knows to use RGB when communicating with a DVI device.

I didn't say there was a handshake in the DVI domain. I said there were only 2 settings in the A2... enhanced black (0-255) and standard black (16-235). Those are only in play if you are using a DVI connection (standard) or a PC connection (enhanced). But there are 3 different settings that are needed to get the right signal to the video display. The A2 has to know when to send YCbCr which is required for HDMI-to-HDMI connections. And the answer is THE HANDSHAKE. From the handshake, the A2 knows there is another HDMI device on the other end. So it sends YCbCr. When you use DVI, there's no HDMI identifier coming back from the video display so the A2 uses standard or enhanced mode... whichever was manually selected - the user has to know which is the right setting. When you are connected HDMI-to-HDMI, the standard and enhanced settings are ignored. I'm not sure how that squares with computers that have HDMI outputs. I have one, but haven't had time to experiment to see what the laptop outputs on HDMI... I presume it would be YCbCr but you never know until you check.

Given the presence of a DVI input on those displays, CE manufacters started supporting it in response to demand. Now that creates a conflict, because PC RGB and video RGB are obviously different. Which should be used? DVI doesn't have a means to specify that information because it is a successor to VGA on computers.

Certainly there was a lot of pressure for digital video in consumer video products. HDMI was already in the planning stages when DVI appeared. Everybody who put DVI on a consumer product knew it was going to be trouble. My guess is that one manufacturer (or 2 or some other minority) made the move and stuck DVI in their products and everybody else caved just to not be left out. The majority of manufacturers couldn't be producing products with competitors touting digital video interfaces the majority weren't equipped with.

DVI would have been fine if HDMI never came along. But studios were demanding content protection and DVI was not designed for that. And since software drives hardware fairly significantly in this market, the manufacturers had to play nice with the studios to keep software flowing into the high-def market they knew was going to be the next huge thing.

spa

11-19-07, 09:15 AM

Hi spa,

Thanks for your participation in this thread.

I conclude that there has to be something wrong with the second generation Toshibas because other source devices such as an HD TiVo connected via HDMI to DVI, or an Bravo D2 upconverting player connected via DVI to DVI, do not have a loss of shadow detail when connected to the same DVI display. Only the Toshibas yield a darker image (darker than the component video image which doesn't have this problem).

The fact that other source devices with DVI connections do not suffer a loss of shadow detail suggests that the problem is not a fundamental limitation of the type of digital video connection, but rather a problem with Toshiba's particular implimentation of DVI. This is further reenforced by the fact that the HD-A3's do not have this problem when connected to DVI displays.

I am fortunate in that I can use the Brightness and Contrast picture settings on my HD-XA2 to obtain a good image. However, there is absolutely no difference in the image using either of the RGB settings.

Now, if the RGB Output Level Selection enhancement were properly working, shouldn't we expect the resulting black levels on the two settings be different?

Thanks.

Larry
Yes, I need to bump the brightness a couple of notches on my XA2 to get things right. I'll play with it tonight and see what the RGB settings do on my system, if anything. (I've got kind of an odd setup though, in that I go through a video processor using DVI and connect to a TV using HDMI so I'm not 100% sure if the XA2 is seeing the VP as an DVI device. I think it is though.)

I didn't say there was a handshake in the DVI domain.

Okay. I agree that one is involved in HDMI, you agree there isn't on DVI, so we're on the same page. :) In part I was speaking to clarify the issue for others listening and not just to respond to what you were saying. Sorry if I put words in your mouth.

wallijonn

11-19-07, 01:00 PM

the HD-A2 handles DVDs ... pretty good; it is not the XA-2 but it is certainly compatible with the price (especially for those who bought at $99). Ok, the Oppo may be better at upconverting (but for those that bought the A2 at $99 that is a $50 increase) but it does not play HD-DVD either.

The Oppos is better in some ways - it has the ability to adjust sharpness, contrast, colour saturation, brightness, adjustable zoom (the Toshi starts at 2x whereas for 1:33 material 1.5x is better (the Oppo starts at 1.1, IIRC).)

The better the media is recorded the better the result - so even badly pressed discs will look awful on either; in some cases the Toshi does better, in other cases the Oppo does better. The trick is to adjust the Oppo to almost mirror the Toshi. Then it really does look really close to HD. But HD will still blow it away.

I own the Oppo 981HD and the A2. The Oppo remote control is way better than the Toshi. The Oppo is much more quiet than the Toshi. I will tell people who can't decide between the A2 and the A3 to get the A3 because it has a smaller exhaust fan, leading me to think that there was a die shrink, which should make it quieter (along with HDMI 1.3 support.)

DavidHir

11-19-07, 01:27 PM

I have an ISF'd 60" SXRD (A3000) and received my XA2 (2.7) last Thursday. The XA2 is without question superior to my A2 for SD DVD and even HD DVD. With SD DVD, the image is cleaner, smoother, and more filmlike - even a bit better contrast. With HD DVD, I find the 1080/24p output to give me a slightly more crisp image and possibly ever so-slightly better color rendition.

LastButNotLeast

11-19-07, 02:09 PM

The XA2 is without question superior to my A2 for SD DVD and even HD DVD.

I would expect it to be, it's a LOT more expensive.
Sorry, but I think most of us understand the A2 is an entry level device, and, as such, is a great one. I don't question that there are better units, but, especially for those of us who are now enjoying HD thanks to the recent $100 promotion, the A2 is terrific.
Sure, I'll replace it one day, the same as I replaced my 24 inch TV with a 57 inch RPCRT. Something to look forward to in the future.

DavidHir

11-19-07, 03:49 PM

I would expect it to be, it's a LOT more expensive.
Sorry, but I think most of us understand the A2 is an entry level device, and, as such, is a great one. I don't question that there are better units, but, especially for those of us who are now enjoying HD thanks to the recent $100 promotion, the A2 is terrific.
Sure, I'll replace it one day, the same as I replaced my 24 inch TV with a 57 inch RPCRT. Something to look forward to in the future.

I was merely objectively stating the PQ differences of the two units regardless of price, value, etc. as someone who owns both units. Never did I state the A2 wasn't a great value nor did the XA2 cost more money. Don't read into things.

LastButNotLeast

11-19-07, 08:55 PM

Don't read into things.

Sorry, I was addressing the whining taking place above, not aimed at you. Appreciate your input. Enjoy.

wannabegeek

11-22-07, 06:57 PM

Downloaded iso burning software, updated firmware 2.7 to A-2 OK. I have HDMI to Samsung LCD. Handshake seems OK. Transformers plays better, but still has "sticky" places. Has anyone done 2.7 update for A-2 and still had problems with Transformers movie in a couple of places? Is that movie just troublsome? Other movies (300 and Batman Begins) play fine. Regular DVD's play fine.

mikejedi123

11-22-07, 07:08 PM

All,

I am now seriously thinking of getting this player to hook up to my Yamaha Rx-V2700 HDMI 1.2a receiver and buying a seperate PS3 for blu.. sine the Sammy and Lg combo's seem to be crippled Multichannel PCM wise (TrueHd only 2 channel it seems and no on-board decoding for DTS MA) I know the picture is awesome , but will it sound good on my HDMI 1.2a Yamaha 2700? I have heard in the past that there was an issue with the XA2 mutichannel pcm converting to much lower sound output no bass? Can anyone confirm or deny? I want to get it but don't want to have a bad sounding piece... Or do the newer generation (yes i know the picture not as good A30,A35 etc) have better sound with no issues with the sound output like the XA2? Or am i mistaken on this? Anyone with a 2700 and XA2?m Thanks for any help or input....

Michael :)

I think i mis-posted this in the other thread (first end user reports) my bad

pierrebnh

11-22-07, 09:25 PM

BeachBuggy

11-23-07, 09:34 AM

primetimeguy

11-23-07, 09:45 AM

BeachBuggy

11-23-07, 09:50 AM

You can only upconvert SD DVD over HDMI. Component will give max output of 480p.

Thanks, I thought that was the case but I wanted a 2nd opinion.
Looks like a purchase is in the future for a hdmi switcher.

maxdb

11-24-07, 04:58 PM

I have a HD-A2 , when I play sd DVD's it defaults to 480p on my output. I am using the component output into my samsung 1080p tv. Does it only upconvert on the hdmi output? If so then I need to install a HDMI switcher as the other 2 hdmi input are already being used.
So the question is can I force 1080i to output via component ?

If the DVD is not copy protected, it will upconvert over component. But there aren't many DVDs without copy protection - mostly they are old titles or "specialty" discs like test/setup DVDs. Nevermind that hackers broke the DVD code within a few months of DVDs being released and that there is NO DVD copy protection scheme that hackers or pro counterfeiters can't bypass. The honest people can't get around DVD copy protection and apparently that's all that matters because even brand new DVDs are "protected from the honest consumer so only the determined hackers or pros can steal the movies". So as long as you are limited to component, 99% of the DVDs you watch will only go to 480p.

khanmotorsport

11-25-07, 10:48 AM

for best results, what do you guys set the dynamic range control (or whatever its called) on the player to?
do you just leave it on Auto

MauneyM

11-25-07, 11:15 AM

for best results, what do you guys set the dynamic range control (or whatever its called) on the player to?
do you just leave it on Auto

DRC should always be OFF, unless you have a habit of trying to watch movies at 70 dB max volume (i.e., whisper-quiet). Frankly, I wish they'd eliminate the feature. It's just one more thing that can screw up the sound....

bradesp

11-25-07, 02:23 PM

16x9 not displaying correctly!

Need help! I'm playing the first season of HOUSE DVD's in 16x9 in my new A2 and no matter what I do the picture displays in the perfect aspect ratio but with with a large, uniform black margin / picture frame all the way around the picture... It also does this on SD over S-Video as well. I'm displaying on a Panasonic HD Projector as well as my Pioneer Elite TV (via s-video).

What gives? I played this same set of dvd's on my SD LG Player and the 16x9 filled the entire frame. I've tried toggling between 16x9, 4x3 letter box and 4x3. The only change is the 4x3 and the 4x3 letter box show up stretched horizontally with black bars at top and bottom (squished I believe is the right ter).

OK, what am I doing wrong?

Thanks!

bradesp

stretch35

11-25-07, 02:23 PM

If the DVD is not copy protected, it will upconvert over component. But there aren't many DVDs without copy protection - mostly they are old titles or "specialty" discs like test/setup DVDs. Nevermind that hackers broke the DVD code within a few months of DVDs being released and that there is NO DVD copy protection scheme that hackers or pro counterfeiters can't bypass. The honest people can't get around DVD copy protection and apparently that's all that matters because even brand new DVDs are "protected from the honest consumer so only the determined hackers or pros can steal the movies". So as long as you are limited to component, 99% of the DVDs you watch will only go to 480p.

an advantage oppo970 has, can be hacked to allow 1080i over component

khanmotorsport

11-25-07, 02:26 PM

MikeSp

11-26-07, 01:22 PM

Jgatie

11-26-07, 01:26 PM

Sorry if this has been rehashed, but there are a zillion postings in this thread so kindly excuse.

How does the XA-2 handle DTS-HDMA or does it and what is its potential for a future firmware update if it does not handle anything but the DTS core?

Thanks,

MikeSp

No on the current ability (core only), and no on the future ability.

The only way to get full DTS-HD/MA is via bitstream to a receiver that decodes it.

muttlover

11-26-07, 05:03 PM

DRC should always be OFF, unless you have a habit of trying to watch movies at 70 dB max volume (i.e., whisper-quiet). Frankly, I wish they'd eliminate the feature. It's just one more thing that can screw up the sound....

It depends on how loud you listen to your movies. I like to listen to them loud but my wife has hearing aids and likes it lower. I found myself having to turn the volume up to hear dialog and down to live through explosions and the like.

Try it out and see. At my house it's on sometimes and off sometimes. No offense intended -- but I do not agree that it should always be left off -- there are way too many variables involved to make that an accurate statement for everybody.

MauneyM

11-26-07, 08:23 PM

No offense intended -- but I do not agree that it should always be left off -- there are way too many variables involved to make that an accurate statement for everybody.

I'm sorry, but I can't disagree more. DRC is the audio equivalent of forcing a black crush onto your video and turning down the brightness because the light spill from your screen might wake up your dog - it's a blind destruction of the dynamic range of the source material.

This is the AVS forum, not Consumer Reports. The goal is accurate reproduction of sound and video, and DRC is an intentional distortion of the sound. Using DRC on a lossless source is the moral equivalent of putting training wheels on a Harley or putting an automatic transmission into an Indy Car.

Just because it might make it more comfortable for a non-enthusiast doesn't make it desirable for a high-end system.

yellowcanary73

11-26-07, 08:37 PM

I'm sorry, but I can't disagree more. DRC is the audio equivalent of forcing a black crush onto your video and turning down the brightness because the light spill from your screen might wake up your dog - it's a blind destruction of the dynamic range of the source material.

This is the AVS forum, not Consumer Reports. The goal is accurate reproduction of sound and video, and DRC is an intentional distortion of the sound. Using DRC on a lossless source is the moral equivalent of putting training wheels on a Harley or putting an automatic transmission into an Indy Car.

Just because it might make it more comfortable for a non-enthusiast doesn't make it desirable for a high-end system.

WOW

mnnc

11-26-07, 08:37 PM

You can only upconvert SD DVD over HDMI. Component will give max output of 480p.

More specifically, A2 will not output higher than 480p via component out whereas other components will output hd signals via component.

gluvhand

11-26-07, 08:51 PM

hansangb

11-26-07, 08:56 PM

MauneyM

11-26-07, 09:17 PM

And I'm casting my vote for snotiest post right now.

Not intended to be 'snotty' - just honest. DRC is an intentional distortion of the audio signal - that's a fact. Intentional distortions don't belong in high-end systems, regardless of whether they are applied to the audio or video portion of the signal.

Put another way - how would you feel about a selectable 'option' to shelve the high frequencies above 5K? Would you agree that this should be something that is reasonable for a high-end system?

Maybe use a high-pass to kill the LFE and everything below 120 Hz, so you don't take a risk of vibrating the couch? Who really needed to hear the train sound, anyway?

What about a 'feature' that intentionally adds 5% of THD?

I'm sorry if some may find it offensive, but intentional distortion of the signal is just that - intentional distortion of the signal. If you're going to trash the dynamic range, why even bother to have a high-end system? Just use the TVs internal speakers and be done with it.

aubsxc

11-26-07, 09:36 PM

primetimeguy

11-26-07, 09:55 PM

More specifically, A2 will not output higher than 480p via component out whereas other components will output hd signals via component.

Incorrect. The A2, just like all other HD DVD players, will output HD (720p and 1080i) via component for HD discs. Component is only limited when watching SD DVDs.

jdawg131

11-26-07, 10:06 PM

I received my XA2 in the mail today from Amazon and have been extremely impressed. I immediately updated the player to 2.7; it came with 1.5. I watched the first two hours of Batman Begins at 1080p/24 and the player did not shut down. The noise on the player is a little loud at first, but once a disc goes in and there is sound, it's barely audible. It's about as loud as my A1 and XA1 without the annoying disc churning on SD DVDs. The only issue that I had is that I have to turn off the 1080p/24 when I watch a SD DVD. The Tick looked awful at first and it was obviously skipping frames, but once I switched it to 1080p, it looked fantastic. The Tick is nothing more than an average DVD and the Reon chip made it look pretty damn good in most scenes. I also threw in Halloween 4 (2000 version) for a couple of minutes to see how the Reon chip would improve the noisy PQ of the DVD and needless to say, it did wonders. It still isn't a reference disc, but it looks much, much better now. I also watched some episodes of Seinfeld Season 9 and Macross (AnimEigo version); I didn't notice too much of an improvement, since they were already pretty solid in the PQ department. I have the EE set to 1 and all of the other picture enhancements are turned on. Here is my current setup:

XA2 > Denon 3806 > 46" XBR4 (all HDMI)

Hopefully the next firmware update will make it, so that I don't have to turn 1080p/24 off while watching a SD DVD. It needs to recognize if it's a 1080p/24 signal or not like the PS3. It's a minor annoyance on an otherwise excellent player. After one night it's already becoming my favorite player. Too bad I read joerod's comments on the Onkyo... it sounds even better than the XA2...

spa

11-27-07, 08:26 AM

Not intended to be 'snotty' - just honest. DRC is an intentional distortion of the audio signal - that's a fact. Intentional distortions don't belong in high-end systems, regardless of whether they are applied to the audio or video portion of the signal.

Put another way - how would you feel about a selectable 'option' to shelve the high frequencies above 5K? Would you agree that this should be something that is reasonable for a high-end system?

Maybe use a high-pass to kill the LFE and everything below 120 Hz, so you don't take a risk of vibrating the couch? Who really needed to hear the train sound, anyway?

What about a 'feature' that intentionally adds 5% of THD?

I'm sorry if some may find it offensive, but intentional distortion of the signal is just that - intentional distortion of the signal. If you're going to trash the dynamic range, why even bother to have a high-end system? Just use the TVs internal speakers and be done with it.

None of those "features" have any sonic benefit. There is a large difference between injecting random noise or clipping frequencies and doing digital signal processing to shape sound. Based on your reasoning, none of the DSP modes of receivers should exist (e.g. Logic 7 Cinema, Logic 7 Movie, Pro Logic II, DTS:Neo, Concert Hall, etc). In addition DSP processing is done on the audio of a movie. Are movies that use such technology (i.e. all of them) "distorting" the audio? What about configuring the receiver for speaker size and setting speaker distances? Making those features work requires employing DSP that "distorts" the sound, according to your criteria. Should we assume that you've shut all of that stuff off?

My theater sits beneath my kids' rooms. When they're watching movies everything is turned up. After they go to bed the DRC comes on. Do you really not get why someone would want that?

What is offensive about your post is your thinly veiled assertion that anyone who wants or uses such a feature is an idiot with low standards for audio. That's elitist but also doesn't make any sense.

MauneyM

11-27-07, 09:47 AM

None of those "features" have any sonic benefit.

Agreed - that was my point.

Based on your reasoning, none of the DSP modes of receivers should exist (e.g. Logic 7 Cinema, Logic 7 Movie, Pro Logic II, DTS:Neo, Concert Hall, etc).

Correct - they are changing the sound into something other than the producer intended. For the purest sound reproduction, these should be disabled. I would take the position that these 'features' don't have any sonic benefit, either, as they take you further from the original signal.

In addition DSP processing is done on the audio of a movie. Are movies that use such technology (i.e. all of them) "distorting" the audio?

No - this is part of the creation process, in the same vein as mic placement, EQ'ing, mixing, etc. Does it change the signal from the mic? Yes, but it is part of the process used to generate the final work desired by the producer. Once the master is made and approved by the producer, though, it's a finished product, and should not be altered. [That said, I would take the view that a good live classical audio recording should be processed as little as possible.]

What about configuring the receiver for speaker size and setting speaker distances? Making those features work requires employing DSP that "distorts" the sound, according to your criteria. Should we assume that you've shut all of that stuff off?

This is part of the process used to ensure that the listener hears sound that is as close as possible to what the content producer intended. In effect, these settings try to account for the shortcomings of the reproduction system and listening environment. If you had a perfect room setup and full-range speakers in all positions, you wouldn't use these settings. FWIW, when listening to music, I do turn all of those off and use the 'Direct' mode.

What is offensive about your post is your thinly veiled assertion that anyone who wants or uses such a feature is an idiot with low standards for audio. That's elitist but also doesn't make any sense.

The original question was about where DRC 'should' be set. For highest quality audio, DRC should be set 'OFF'. I stand by that statement.

In the end, the goal of high-end audio and video is to reproduce something that is as close as possible to the producer's intent, i.e., what is on the disc. System calibration - both audio and video - and room-tuning are designed to get you as close as possible to that goal; DRC and phony room ambience processing works against this goal.

If we can't agree that this is the goal of high-end AV systems, then I really don't understand where you're coming from.

For myself, I have built a room that is isolated well enough to allow me to listen to music, practice my instruments, and watch movies late at night without resorting to having to reduce volume or compress the sound (I have young children, as well, so I get the point). Frankly, the cost was relatively low in comparison to my investment in equipment, so I don't view this as 'elitist' - just part of the system cost. Frankly, I truly don't understand why someone would spend a ton of money on AV equipment, then put up with listening to sub-standard sound quality.

yellowcanary73

11-27-07, 10:40 AM

Agreed - that was my point.

Correct - they are changing the sound into something other than the producer intended. For the purest sound reproduction, these should be disabled. I would take the position that these 'features' don't have any sonic benefit, either, as they take you further from the original signal.

No - this is part of the creation process, in the same vein as mic placement, EQ'ing, mixing, etc. Does it change the signal from the mic? Yes, but it is part of the process used to generate the final work desired by the producer. Once the master is made and approved by the producer, though, it's a finished product, and should not be altered. [That said, I would take the view that a good live classical audio recording should be processed as little as possible.]

This is part of the process used to ensure that the listener hears sound that is as close as possible to what the content producer intended. In effect, these settings try to account for the shortcomings of the reproduction system and listening environment. If you had a perfect room setup and full-range speakers in all positions, you wouldn't use these settings. FWIW, when listening to music, I do turn all of those off and use the 'Direct' mode.

The original question was about where DRC 'should' be set. For highest quality audio, DRC should be set 'OFF'. I stand by that statement.

In the end, the goal of high-end audio and video is to reproduce something that is as close as possible to the producer's intent, i.e., what is on the disc. System calibration - both audio and video - and room-tuning are designed to get you as close as possible to that goal; DRC and phony room ambience processing works against this goal.

If we can't agree that this is the goal of high-end AV systems, then I really don't understand where you're coming from.

For myself, I have built a room that is isolated well enough to allow me to listen to music, practice my instruments, and watch movies late at night without resorting to having to reduce volume or compress the sound (I have young children, as well, so I get the point). Frankly, the cost was relatively low in comparison to my investment in equipment, so I don't view this as 'elitist' - just part of the system cost. Frankly, I truly don't understand why someone would spend a ton of money on AV equipment, then put up with listening to sub-standard sound quality.

All I can say is ******* WOW:eek:

Jgatie

11-27-07, 10:45 AM

All I can say is ******* WOW:eek:

Actually, I kind of agree with him. I have never used a DSP on my music/movies and have never turned on dialog norm or DRC. I want my sound as close to the source as possible. However, I can't really shun those who do use it, as long as they know what it does!!! If they are using a DSP, Dialnorm or DRC because they think it actually enhances the sound or makes it "better" than the source, well then we can agree to disagree. But if they are doing it for a quiet house, sleeping kids or because they personally like the effect, well who am I to stop them or even criticize.

MauneyM

11-27-07, 11:39 AM

I want my sound as close to the source as possible. However, I can't really shun those who do use it, as long as they know what it does!!!

Exactly. When someone asks what is the 'correct' setting for a given parameter, the answer should be the one that gets you closest to accurate reproduction. To give any other answer is misleading.

As another corollary, there are those who will tell you that they like to set up their HT or mobile audio with an extra 5-10 dB of low bass response. That may be a common personal preference, but it certainly should not be suggested to someone as the 'right' approach.

BTBuck1

11-27-07, 11:50 AM

I have a couple of A2's but they are connected to tv's without 5.1 receivers.
Through the TV speakers, the sound seems low, what settings in the menu should I have these set to?

1 is connected with HDMI handling audio/Video

1 is connected with component y-pb-pr and 2 channel analog out.

Thanks in advance!

ugabuga

11-27-07, 03:30 PM

Currently, I have my A2 connected via a HDMI to DVI cable. Is there any negatives to running the A2 on component in comparison with regards to hd content? I don't care about the upscaling since I have a Oppo which handles that duty.

Jgatie

11-27-07, 03:33 PM

ugabuga

11-27-07, 03:41 PM

You component picture should be close to, if not just as good as HDMI.

Ok thanks figured as much. On RPTV's many of the ISF guys recommend using component over dvi/hdmi so i fig worth a shot.

hansangb

11-27-07, 08:39 PM

Agreed - that was my point.[snip]
In the end, the goal of high-end audio and video is to reproduce something that is as close as possible to the producer's intent, i.e., what is on the disc. System calibration - both audio and video - and room-tuning are designed to get you as close as possible to that goal; DRC and phony room ambience processing works against this goal.

Define high end. That's the problem, isn't it? One man's high end system is another man's junk. I don't have a problem with what you're saying in theory, but in practice, it makes no sense. That would be like HD/BR DVD movies that mandates some cross-over frequency. "That's the way it was recorded, that's the way it was meant to be heard and so you can't have any options!"

If we can't agree that this is the goal of high-end AV systems, then I really don't understand where you're coming from.

Again, it's the degree. I like my Marantz SR8001. But to others, it's just a toy AVR. It's not even a "real" amp.

For myself, I have built a room that is isolated well enough to allow me to listen to music, practice my instruments, and watch movies late at night without resorting to having to reduce volume or compress the sound (I have young children, as well, so I get the point). Frankly, the cost was relatively low in comparison to my investment in equipment, so I don't view this as 'elitist' - just part of the system cost. Frankly, I truly don't understand why someone would spend a ton of money on AV equipment, then put up with listening to sub-standard sound quality.

Some of us have wives who would not stand for room treatments.
Some folks have budget that can't swing a "few hundred" bucks more. Some have shared living space and no amount of treatment will work. So in cases like this, it's PERFECTLY ok to use DRC. Yes, it distorts it, but it's better than getting the wrath of your wife as you dive for the remote during an explosion scene.

One final note. If you were a car enthusiasts, you would be saying we should all drive with stick/manual shift because it gives the best performance and saves gas. Automatics have NO place because it distorts the acceleration of the vehicle.

For some, this is nothing more than a hobby and it's OK to have gimmicky options that are (at times) handy.

khanmotorsport

11-27-07, 08:43 PM

One final note. If you were a car enthusiasts, you would be saying we should all drive with stick/manual shift because it gives the best performance and saves gas. Automatics have NO place because it distorts the acceleration of the vehicle.

For some, this is nothing more than a hobby and it's OK to have gimmicky options that are (at times) handy.

It seems my original question got out of hand :D
Agreed, it is perfectly o.k. to use DRC when you need to, that's why it's there, otherwise, as I have now learned, it is best off.

It's like traction control in sports cars, I f**king hate it, but its good for the rare times i let others drive my car so they don't wrap it around a pole.

MauneyM

11-27-07, 10:03 PM

Define high end.

High end = focus on the quality of the reproduction (as opposed to gimmicks and 'usability features'). I didn't know there was any debate over this definition......:confused:

Some of us have wives who would not stand for room treatments.

I guess I'm lucky - my wife and kids have come to appreciate the value of a properly set-up HT. Of course, the fact that it's tucked away in a corner of the basement probably helps.;)

Some folks have budget that can't swing a "few hundred" bucks more. Some have shared living space and no amount of treatment will work. So in cases like this, it's PERFECTLY ok to use DRC. Yes, it distorts it, but it's better than getting the wrath of your wife as you dive for the remote during an explosion scene.

No argument there. However, I would argue that at this point, why are you bothering with HD, or even worrying about HDM formats? What good is having a 7.1 system if the first thing you do is cripple the sub?

This forum gets very wrapped up in discussions about tube vs. solid-state amps, PCM vs. lossless vs. DD+1.5M, 1080p/60 vs 1080p/24, HD DVD vs. BD bandwidth, etc. I find it 'interesting' that many of the people who swear that there is a night-and-day difference between PCM and TrueHD don't understand that DRC (or other processing 'features') rather destroy the point. Ditto for people arguing over the relative contrast levels between projectors with and without DI, but using their system in a room without light control.

One final note. If you were a car enthusiasts, you would be saying we should all drive with stick/manual shift because it gives the best performance and saves gas. Automatics have NO place because it distorts the acceleration of the vehicle.

Interesting you would say that. I AM a car enthusiast, and I own and drive two race cars. The sanctioning body I road race with does not allow automatics - for good reason, as they can be terribly unsafe when driven at the limits of adhesion. Given the choice, I would never buy one (though my wife's daily driver has an auto, she would also prefer a stick). Ever been to Europe and rented a car? And, FWIW, it has nothing to do with the acceleration, per se - it has to do with handling, balance, and drivetrain efficiency. ...and BTW, you're right about manuals using less gas - we'd all be better off both cost- and emission-wise if we ditched automatics. [khanmotorsports: I agree with you on traction control - on any seriously high-powered car, it's a safety feature for those drivers who don't know how to handle the torque - the vast majority of people on the road - or for when it rains. It's just nice to be able to turn it completely off when you want to.]

Yes, I am a purist in just about every sense of the word, and in multiple disciplines. But isn't that what this forum is supposed to be about?

yellowcanary73

11-27-07, 10:45 PM

High end = focus on the quality of the reproduction (as opposed to gimmicks and 'usability features'). I didn't know there was any debate over this definition......:confused:

I guess I'm lucky - my wife and kids have come to appreciate the value of a properly set-up HT. Of course, the fact that it's tucked away in a corner of the basement probably helps.;)

No argument there. However, I would argue that at this point, why are you bothering with HD, or even worrying about HDM formats? What good is having a 7.1 system if the first thing you do is cripple the sub?

This forum gets very wrapped up in discussions about tube vs. solid-state amps, PCM vs. lossless vs. DD+1.5M, 1080p/60 vs 1080p/24, HD DVD vs. BD bandwidth, etc. I find it 'interesting' that many of the people who swear that there is a night-and-day difference between PCM and TrueHD don't understand that DRC (or other processing 'features') rather destroy the point. Ditto for people arguing over the relative contrast levels between projectors with and without DI, but using their system in a room without light control.

Interesting you would say that. I AM a car enthusiast, and I own and drive two race cars. The sanctioning body I road race with does not allow automatics - for good reason, as they can be terribly unsafe when driven at the limits of adhesion. Given the choice, I would never buy one (though my wife's daily driver has an auto, she would also prefer a stick). Ever been to Europe and rented a car? And, FWIW, it has nothing to do with the acceleration, per se - it has to do with handling, balance, and drivetrain efficiency. ...and BTW, you're right about manuals using less gas - we'd all be better off both cost- and emission-wise if we ditched automatics. [khanmotorsports: I agree with you on traction control - on any seriously high-powered car, it's a safety feature for those drivers who don't know how to handle the torque - the vast majority of people on the road - or for when it rains. It's just nice to be able to turn it completely off when you want to.]

Yes, I am a purist in just about every sense of the word, and in multiple disciplines. But isn't that what this forum is supposed to be about?

Not sure this forum has any thing to do with cars.As far as sound I still love my Vinyl and turntable.:)

MauneyM

11-27-07, 10:56 PM

Not sure this forum has any thing to do with cars.As far as sound I still love my Vinyl and turntable.:)

Agreed (sorry for going OT) and agreed. However, I won't try to say that vinyl will give a better reproduction than multi-channel 24/96 lossless. I'm not that far gone....:D

Jgatie

11-28-07, 08:06 AM

Agreed (sorry for going OT) and agreed. However, I won't try to say that vinyl will give a better reproduction than multi-channel 24/96 lossless. I'm not that far gone....:D

That's because you said better reproduction. You should have used words like warmer, brighter, more expansive, shimmering, spatial, etc., etc., etc . . . ;)

spa

11-28-07, 08:34 AM

MauneyM, yes you are a purist and a bit unrealistic.

Some folks have budget that can't swing a "few hundred" bucks more. Some have shared living space and no amount of treatment will work. So in cases like this, it's PERFECTLY ok to use DRC. Yes, it distorts it, but it's better than getting the wrath of your wife as you dive for the remote during an explosion scene.

No argument there. However, I would argue that at this point, why are you bothering with HD, or even worrying about HDM formats? What good is having a 7.1 system if the first thing you do is cripple the sub.

There's a difference between using DRC sometimes and using it always. Your purist position has turned off your pragmatism--find the switch and turn it back on :).

maxdb

11-28-07, 10:27 AM

Ok thanks figured [component would be as good as HDMI]. On RPTV's many of the ISF guys recommend using component over dvi/hdmi so i fig worth a shot.

Here's what happens when you use HDMI:

Digital video from the disc > Converted to YCrCb > HDMI digital interface output from disc player > HDMI digital interface input on video display > converted to RGB in the display > image appears on video display

Component video required converting digital video to analog in the player, then converting the analog video back into digital video in the display. This degrades image quality noticeably.

The ONLY reason any ISF calibrator has recommended Component over HDMI is because there are times when HDMI is not a reliable connection (picture drops out because of handshake issues or has problems due to using long non-amplified HDMI cables). Component is NEVER recommended when the best picture quality is the goal and when the components involved are not having problems communicating with each other.

HDMI "problems" are most likely to happen when the age difference between the video display and disc player is the greatest. Early DVI-equipped video displays are notoriously bad at maintaining uninterrupted video connections via HDMI with new disc players with HDMI outputs. Using component is a painless and quick solution to the problem, but is not optimum for image quality. When botht he video display and disc player are HDMI equipped, and especially if they are Gen 2 HDMI (ie. not from the first year HDMI was on players or displays), there are almost ZERO problems with 2 HDMI components communicating reliably. Unless you return to that long-cable scenario. In the early days of HDMI, amplified HDMI cables didn't even exist. Today you can spend a TON of money on amplified HDMI cables that will move your signal 100 feet or you can spend $20 on a 20 foot amplified HDMI cable that does the same job, but you might need more than one. 2 years ago if there was an HDMI long-cable drop-out or sparklies problem, there was no answer other than using a shorter cable. If that was impossible (front projector installations for example) changing to component was the only answer.

I don't think any ISF Calibrator TODAY would recommend Component over HDMI if the HDMI connection works reliably.

muttlover

11-28-07, 11:26 AM

I'm sorry, but I can't disagree more. DRC is the audio equivalent of forcing a black crush onto your video and turning down the brightness [snip]

If I had it my way all the time I agree, no DRC and turn it up loud. But I don't have a soundproof room for HD. I have a busy house with lots of activity and noise and a wife that has hearing aids. That's what I meant about alot of variables. DRC fixes the problem. You leave yours off all the time, I'll use mine when the situation requires it. End of issue.

MarketingProf

11-28-07, 12:29 PM

Here's what happens when you use HDMI:

Digital video from the disc > Converted to YCrCb > HDMI digital interface output from disc player > HDMI digital interface input on video display > converted to RGB in the display > image appears on video display

Component video required converting digital video to analog in the player, then converting the analog video back into digital video in the display. This degrades image quality noticeably.

The ONLY reason any ISF calibrator has recommended Component over HDMI is because there are times when HDMI is not a reliable connection (picture drops out because of handshake issues or has problems due to using long non-amplified HDMI cables). Component is NEVER recommended when the best picture quality is the goal and when the components involved are not having problems communicating with each other.

HDMI "problems" are most likely to happen when the age difference between the video display and disc player is the greatest. Early DVI-equipped video displays are notoriously bad at maintaining uninterrupted video connections via HDMI with new disc players with HDMI outputs. Using component is a painless and quick solution to the problem, but is not optimum for image quality. When botht he video display and disc player are HDMI equipped, and especially if they are Gen 2 HDMI (ie. not from the first year HDMI was on players or displays), there are almost ZERO problems with 2 HDMI components communicating reliably. Unless you return to that long-cable scenario. In the early days of HDMI, amplified HDMI cables didn't even exist. Today you can spend a TON of money on amplified HDMI cables that will move your signal 100 feet or you can spend $20 on a 20 foot amplified HDMI cable that does the same job, but you might need more than one. 2 years ago if there was an HDMI long-cable drop-out or sparklies problem, there was no answer other than using a shorter cable. If that was impossible (front projector installations for example) changing to component was the only answer.

I don't think any ISF Calibrator TODAY would recommend Component over HDMI if the HDMI connection works reliably.

I'm not sure it is 100%. I think it depends on your display and whether it needs to always scale to its native resolution. For instance, my Fujitsu P50 takes every incoming signal and converts it to display at 768p. It has a very good processor. Thus, I could see no difference between component and HDMI over both my cable box (SA8300hd) or my A2.

However, I did notice a difference with my PS3. HDMI was clearly better.

rlb

12-01-07, 01:14 PM

Here's what happens when you use HDMI:

Digital video from the disc > Converted to YCrCb > HDMI digital interface output from disc player > HDMI digital interface input on video display > converted to RGB in the display > image appears on video display

Component video required converting digital video to analog in the player, then converting the analog video back into digital video in the display. This degrades image quality noticeably.

The ONLY reason any ISF calibrator has recommended Component over HDMI is because there are times when HDMI is not a reliable connection (picture drops out because of handshake issues or has problems due to using long non-amplified HDMI cables). Component is NEVER recommended when the best picture quality is the goal and when the components involved are not having problems communicating with each other.

HDMI "problems" are most likely to happen when the age difference between the video display and disc player is the greatest. Early DVI-equipped video displays are notoriously bad at maintaining uninterrupted video connections via HDMI with new disc players with HDMI outputs. Using component is a painless and quick solution to the problem, but is not optimum for image quality. When botht he video display and disc player are HDMI equipped, and especially if they are Gen 2 HDMI (ie. not from the first year HDMI was on players or displays), there are almost ZERO problems with 2 HDMI components communicating reliably. Unless you return to that long-cable scenario. In the early days of HDMI, amplified HDMI cables didn't even exist. Today you can spend a TON of money on amplified HDMI cables that will move your signal 100 feet or you can spend $20 on a 20 foot amplified HDMI cable that does the same job, but you might need more than one. 2 years ago if there was an HDMI long-cable drop-out or sparklies problem, there was no answer other than using a shorter cable. If that was impossible (front projector installations for example) changing to component was the only answer.

I don't think any ISF Calibrator TODAY would recommend Component over HDMI if the HDMI connection works reliably.

Not necessarily true. Totally dependent upon the specific gear.

On my SXRD (XBR1) the HDMI inputs "over filter" 480i and 480p. You get a better picture via component inputs. This was specifically demonstrated to me by the ISF tech while working on my display.

HDMI is better for 720p/1080i. I use a Reon processor in my XA2 or Integra 9.8 (for satellite broadcasts) to upconvert 480i to 1080i before going HDMI to my SXRD.

rlb

12-01-07, 01:23 PM

High end = focus on the quality of the reproduction (as opposed to gimmicks and 'usability features'). I didn't know there was any debate over this definition......:confused:

I guess I'm lucky - my wife and kids have come to appreciate the value of a properly set-up HT. Of course, the fact that it's tucked away in a corner of the basement probably helps.;)

No argument there. However, I would argue that at this point, why are you bothering with HD, or even worrying about HDM formats? What good is having a 7.1 system if the first thing you do is cripple the sub?

This forum gets very wrapped up in discussions about tube vs. solid-state amps, PCM vs. lossless vs. DD+1.5M, 1080p/60 vs 1080p/24, HD DVD vs. BD bandwidth, etc. I find it 'interesting' that many of the people who swear that there is a night-and-day difference between PCM and TrueHD don't understand that DRC (or other processing 'features') rather destroy the point. Ditto for people arguing over the relative contrast levels between projectors with and without DI, but using their system in a room without light control.

Interesting you would say that. I AM a car enthusiast, and I own and drive two race cars. The sanctioning body I road race with does not allow automatics - for good reason, as they can be terribly unsafe when driven at the limits of adhesion. Given the choice, I would never buy one (though my wife's daily driver has an auto, she would also prefer a stick). Ever been to Europe and rented a car? And, FWIW, it has nothing to do with the acceleration, per se - it has to do with handling, balance, and drivetrain efficiency. ...and BTW, you're right about manuals using less gas - we'd all be better off both cost- and emission-wise if we ditched automatics. [khanmotorsports: I agree with you on traction control - on any seriously high-powered car, it's a safety feature for those drivers who don't know how to handle the torque - the vast majority of people on the road - or for when it rains. It's just nice to be able to turn it completely off when you want to.]

Yes, I am a purist in just about every sense of the word, and in multiple disciplines. But isn't that what this forum is supposed to be about?

No, I don't think that is what it is necessarily about. I'd bet money you are in the minority. Most here are trying to get the most from what they have or can afford to buy.

And he was bothering with HD because he wants to (whether or not you think he is "pure enough")!

MauneyM

12-01-07, 02:33 PM

No, I don't think that is what it is necessarily about. I'd bet money you are in the minority. Most here are trying to get the most from what they have or can afford to buy.

?!?!?!? The most what? Volume? Bass response? Brightness? Your statement doesn't have much meaning without a definition. I agree that we are all trying to extract the best performance from our equipment - that's why I spent so much effort on my room.

But I'll stand by my statement that it (high end audio/video) is about accurate reproduction. If it weren't, we'd all be listening to AM radio and mono bandwidth-limited MP3s. If you're not interested in the most accurate reproduction you can get, then just go ahead and admit that you don't really care about sound quality. It's OK to not care about it, but don't get uptight when someone points it out. Try to keep in mind what this forum is all about...

And he was bothering with HD because he wants to (whether or not you think he is "pure enough")!

I don't think you got my point. I would make the same sort of statement about someone who went out and bought a 2500W subwoofer, then proceeded to complain that it was too loud to use in his apartment. Why would you adopt a more-expensive format that provides greater dynamic range if you're going to compress it and make no use of the benefit of the higher-definition source?

yellowcanary73

12-01-07, 06:01 PM

?!?!?!? The most what? Volume? Bass response? Brightness? Your statement doesn't have much meaning without a definition. I agree that we are all trying to extract the best performance from our equipment - that's why I spent so much effort on my room.

But I'll stand by my statement that it (high end audio/video) is about accurate reproduction. If it weren't, we'd all be listening to AM radio and mono bandwidth-limited MP3s. If you're not interested in the most accurate reproduction you can get, then just go ahead and admit that you don't really care about sound quality. It's OK to not care about it, but don't get uptight when someone points it out. Try to keep in mind what this forum is all about...

I don't think you got my point. I would make the same sort of statement about someone who went out and bought a 2500W subwoofer, then proceeded to complain that it was too loud to use in his apartment. Why would you adopt a more-expensive format that provides greater dynamic range if you're going to compress it and make no use of the benefit of the higher-definition source?

Man have you ever thought about not trying to be so arrogant.

hansangb

12-01-07, 08:03 PM

High end = focus on the quality of the reproduction (as opposed to gimmicks and 'usability features'). I didn't know there was any debate over this definition......:confused:

One man's high end is another man's junk.

No argument there. However, I would argue that at this point, why are you bothering with HD, or even worrying about HDM formats? What good is having a 7.1 system if the first thing you do is cripple the sub?

Because some folks may be forced to use DRC 1-5% of the time. It's an option. That's all it is.

This forum gets very wrapped up in discussions about tube vs. solid-state amps, PCM vs. lossless vs. DD+1.5M, 1080p/60 vs 1080p/24, HD DVD vs. BD bandwidth, etc. I find it 'interesting' that many of the people who swear that there is a night-and-day difference between PCM and TrueHD don't understand that DRC (or other processing 'features') rather destroy the point. Ditto for people arguing over the relative contrast levels between projectors with and without DI, but using their system in a room without light control.

Interesting you would say that. I AM a car enthusiast, and I own and drive two race cars. The sanctioning body I road race with does not allow automatics - for good reason, as they can be terribly unsafe when driven at the limits of adhesion. Given the choice, I would never buy one (though my wife's daily driver has an auto, she would also prefer a stick). Ever been to Europe and rented a car? And, FWIW, it has nothing to do with the acceleration, per se - it has to do with handling, balance, and drivetrain efficiency. ...and BTW, you're right about manuals using less gas - we'd all be better off both cost- and emission-wise if we ditched automatics. [khanmotorsports: I agree with you on traction control - on any seriously high-powered car, it's a safety feature for those drivers who don't know how to handle the torque - the vast majority of people on the road - or for when it rains. It's just nice to be able to turn it completely off when you want to.]

Yes, I am a purist in just about every sense of the word, and in multiple disciplines. But isn't that what this forum is supposed to be about?

Purism without pragmatism....that's a pretty dangerous combination. traction control is a safety feature, as is DRC. Both affect the performance, don't they? Being able to turn it off or on is the point. Having options is *always* a good thing. Having stupid default options is another matter altogether.

maxdb

12-02-07, 02:33 PM

Not necessarily true. Totally dependent upon the specific gear.

On my SXRD (XBR1) the HDMI inputs "over filter" 480i and 480p. You get a better picture via component inputs. This was specifically demonstrated to me by the ISF tech while working on my display.

HDMI is better for 720p/1080i. I use a Reon processor in my XA2 or Integra 9.8 (for satellite broadcasts) to upconvert 480i to 1080i before going HDMI to my SXRD.

I neglected to say I was referring to high-def sources and high-def displays using HDMI.

Standard def and DVI still have "issues" specific to source components and displays that may make component a better choice... but only because the source or display OR BOTH are doing something wrong in the HDMI domain. Not because component is better.

maxdb

12-02-07, 02:36 PM

Man have you ever thought about not trying to be so arrogant.

Man, have you ever thought about not being so judgemental?

LastButNotLeast

12-02-07, 04:21 PM

If you want to continue flinging philosophical mud at each other, please do so in another forum. This one is "Tosh G2 HD-A2 and HD-XA2 information and discussion," which has been blatantly absent from your recent tantrums.

So:
How long has it taken for the free DVD's to arrive? I was one of the lucky 90,000 who got to W-M on time, and I've been sitting by the mailbox since.
Thanks.
Michael

muttlover

12-03-07, 04:23 PM

I think the upper limit was 8 weeks -- and about at 8 weeks I got a postcard that told me it would be a a bit longer (with an option to cancel, go figure).

LastButNotLeast

12-03-07, 08:07 PM

(with an option to cancel, go figure).

I can see that: after 8 weeks I'm going to be really mad and cancel my order for free DVD's. Maybe I'll call my attorney, too.:D
You did eventually get them, I presume?!

buck351

12-03-07, 09:26 PM

Not all disc do this garbeled sound only a few so far. It doesn't do it on the flat panel which is connected via hdmi only thru the surround sound amp which is connected via the fiber connection. It's set up for bitstream and the amp is showing DTS. If I switch it to PCM the amp goes into sim surround sound and doesn't do the grabeling sound. It is repeatable in the same place in the movie and is where the level increases when say an actor shouts. I am running the most recent firmware.

It happened on "You Me and Depree" and on "Bulletproof". Anyone have any insite into this? I've only noticed it on those two Rental discs so far. Some other discs I haven't heard this in are: King Kong, Back Draft and Doom which I own. Could it be caused from scratches(damage) on the disc? It isn't constant in the audio and it's repeatable at the same points.

Dead.Horse

12-04-07, 12:02 AM

maxdb

12-04-07, 01:49 PM

Does anyone own both of these and is having problems getting more than 2-channel sound out of the XA2 via HDMI? I've checked everything I could, but I'm only getting sound through the Front L/R speakers. The Onkyo receiver displays only the L/R channels as being active, even though the XA2 displays "multi" and is setup for 5.1 (HDMI set to Auto, test tone plays ALL channels through front L/R speakers). The receiver is in Direct mode and is lighting up PCM. I tested the PS3 and it correctly lights up the additional speakers on the receiver. Tried swapping the PS3 & XA2, but it made no difference. I verified with several HD-DVD's that it is only outputting audio through the front l/r speakers. I'm trying to do the 2.7 update now, but I don't hold much hope. Doing a quick search yielded no posts regarding the same issue.

Any suggestions?

Update: 2.7 did nothing.

Why are you using Direct mode? It bypasses all the processing... no bass management, no speaker distance compensation, no speaker level compensation, nothing.

And do you have all the speakers setup in the 705s setup menu? Does the 705 know you have a center and surround speakers connected? Does the 705 know all speaker distances from your listening position? Have you used a sound pressure level meter to set all the speaker levels so they read the same on your meter?

Also, don't use Auto mode for HDMI... that's asking for trouble too. You should use PCM mode, not downmix PCM, just PCM.

muttlover

12-04-07, 04:24 PM

I can see that: after 8 weeks I'm going to be really mad and cancel my order for free DVD's. Maybe I'll call my attorney, too.:D
You did eventually get them, I presume?!

Yep I did. Everything was fine. Now I'm waiting for 5 free blurays after I got my PS3 -- wonder how that will turn out. There was fine print on the form that said you had to buy in the same state but I'm on a state line and of course I went over it to buy my unit :D

adamwc1776

12-04-07, 04:38 PM

fretman

12-04-07, 06:00 PM

shabre

12-04-07, 07:22 PM

Two weeks into owning the XA2 several things are clear.

The image quality with my best sd-dvds (e.g., lotr) is beautiful. I am impressed!

HD-DVDs look terrific and I'm happy to see 1080p/24fps on my pio elite 110 looking and sounding perfect.

HOWEVER....

I am really not liking how loud the player is compared to the completely silent Panasonic-BD30. My current plan is to replace the XA2 with another one, but I feel I should ask if it's reasonable to expect any of the XA2's to operate silently. Mine sort of whines, as if not only the fan is making a noise but the power supply, too. I'm also really bummed out by the quality of the disc transport mechanism, which is so cheap feeling. Not exactly confidence inspiring build quality for Toshiba's top of the line!

I'd love to hear something reassuring about the existence of silently operating XA2s.

I have had my xa2 now for 6mos, if not longer... No noise problems on this end. The listening position for my wife and 10mos. old baby and myself is appx. 18ft. away, that could also be the reason!

If you are experiencing loud fan noises, etc... just turn up the beautiful uncompressed audio that we spent so dearly for and enjoy your hd dvd films
the way they should be enjoyed!!! :D

adamwc1776

12-04-07, 08:05 PM

If you are experiencing loud fan noises, etc... just turn up the beautiful uncompressed audio that we spent so dearly for and enjoy your hd dvd films the way they should be enjoyed!!! :D

Movies, hd or not, have quiet scenes. That's when you hear the fan. And that's when it's hard to swallow. Directors make movie scenes quiet for a reason. They don't intend for there to be vacuum cleaners operated during those scenes, or cell phones, or noisy fans.

The Panny doesn't have the Reon chip, which is probably why it's as silent as the grave during movie playback.

The overall effect of this is going to be that I will purchase BD movies instead of HDDVD options whenever possible.

bvader

12-05-07, 12:37 AM

Two weeks into owning the XA2 several things are clear.

The image quality with my best sd-dvds (e.g., lotr) is beautiful. I am impressed!

HD-DVDs look terrific and I'm happy to see 1080p/24fps on my pio elite 110 looking and sounding perfect.

HOWEVER....

I am really not liking how loud the player is compared to the completely silent Panasonic-BD30. My current plan is to replace the XA2 with another one, but I feel I should ask if it's reasonable to expect any of the XA2's to operate silently. Mine sort of whines, as if not only the fan is making a noise but the power supply, too. I'm also really bummed out by the quality of the disc transport mechanism, which is so cheap feeling. Not exactly confidence inspiring build quality for Toshiba's top of the line!

I'd love to hear something reassuring about the existence of silently operating XA2s.

If you really want to know about fans and making them quiet etc...
Checkout this thread about half way down...Nimo is the man!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12323403#post12323403

maxdb

12-05-07, 03:10 AM

I updated my XA2 to 2.7 via CD and all went fine. It's set to 1080P/24. I have played a few discs both SD and HD and everything has worked fine. I checked my RS1 and it is receiving 1080P/24 correctly. Something weird just happened. I bought a copy of Terminator 2 Extreme Edition and tried to play it but the menu is un-responsive. I set the XA2 to up to 1080P and now the menu responds OK. Back to 1080P/24 and again no response from the menu. I tried an HD-DVD at 1080P/24 and everything works fine. I tried the new POTC 3 SD-DVD and it works with 1080P/24. Anyone else have T2 Extreme? Is it something weird with that disc?

It's fairly common for menus to be 1080i - that flumoxes the 108024p mode pretty bad. Also, you shouldn't use 1080/24p with DVD since the 3:2 pulldown cadence is encoded on the DVDs essentially making them 30fps which can also flumox the 24p mode causing jerky motion at times. Toshiba knows about this... I read their statement about the 24p mode somewhere. Some players that start out with 24p modes (not HD DVD players) are able to sense the input and auto-switch out of 24p when the material on the disc is not 24p (menus, DVDs, concerts shot at 1080i, etc.).

ChandlerL

12-07-07, 09:30 PM

I don't think you got my point. I would make the same sort of statement about someone who went out and bought a 2500W subwoofer, then proceeded to complain that it was too loud to use in his apartment. Why would you adopt a more-expensive format that provides greater dynamic range if you're going to compress it and make no use of the benefit of the higher-definition source?

From the last few pages of the thread, I think what you've been saying is that you're fine with having the option of DRC, however if someone asked you for a recommendation on the setting for the best quality sound, you would direct them to turn it off. If, however, they wished to use it due to necessity (sleeping children, etc.), they could use it for that precise purpose with the understanding that sound quality would be degraded.

Sounds fair to me.

-Chan

MauneyM

12-07-07, 10:55 PM

From the last few pages of the thread, I think what you've been saying is that you're fine with having the option of DRC, however if someone asked you for a recommendation on the setting for the best quality sound, you would direct them to turn it off. If, however, they wished to use it due to necessity (sleeping children, etc.), they could use it for that precise purpose with the understanding that sound quality would be degraded.

Exactly!:cool:

Phase700B

12-27-07, 10:05 PM

Am wondering about some of the freeze, noise and other problems/quirks of the XA2 and the country of origin. I have an A2 and am thinking of ungrading to an XA2, but not if the current ones that are available are leftovers prone to have problems. Has anyone tried to determine if it is early/late serial numbers that have problems?:confused:
I have had my A2 for about 3 weeks now and am overall pleased. But I am the type of guy who likes the tweaks the XA2 has, but not at the expense of potential or real annoying problems. Particularly freezing issues which don't seem to firmware related.:o
I updated my A2 FW to 2.7 via ISO file I DL and burned from Toshiba. All went well. I am using HDMI to my Mitsubishi LT-46231.
I guess my question really is to those who have or had both an A2 and XA2.
Is it worth upgrading to an XA2? I read a few posts from some of these owners. My apologies though, since all the Toshiba xx2 threads are quite lengthy.:rolleyes:

ColdCase

12-28-07, 06:46 AM

MauneyM

12-28-07, 06:52 AM

The benefit of the XA2 over the A2 is the up conversion and audio features. I don't think you will find much difference in reliability.

The recent polls here about compatibiity with certain movies seem to say otherwise. The XA2 has the lowest percentage of issues, while the A3 seems to have the most issues.

Phase700B

12-28-07, 08:40 PM

The benefit of the XA2 over the A2 is the up conversion and audio features. I don't think you will find much difference in reliability. Perhaps the XA2 has more production line testing, but I dunno. I’ve read one report here that XA2s with build dates Oct 07 and newer are not as solid as those built earlier.

Thanks. The upconversion and audio feature benefits are about what I believe to be better on the XA2 over the A2 also. The question is, should I spend $500-$600 on an XA2? And from where? Are the "refurbs" any good from some of the online places. Maybe VE would be best?:confused:

I like my A2 so far. Very good upconversion to my Mits LT-46231 with HDMI.
Will the XA2 be that much better? The XA2 just seems like such a great unit. Almost over built really. The new GIII Toshiba players don't seem as substantial as even the A2, let alone the XA2.:rolleyes:

Larry523

12-29-07, 04:57 AM

...The new GIII Toshiba players don't seem as substantial as even the A2, let alone the XA2.:rolleyes:

Toshiba has said that the XA2 is still considered their flagship, top-of-line model even over the GIII units. I'm certainly pleased with mine! It and my PS3 complement each other very nicely.

ThePrisoner

12-29-07, 05:16 AM

After clearing persistant storage should I re-intialize my XA2?

Bill Mac

12-29-07, 08:38 AM

Thanks. The upconversion and audio feature benefits are about what I believe to be better on the XA2 over the A2 also. The question is, should I spend $500-$600 on an XA2? And from where? Are the "refurbs" any good from some of the online places. Maybe VE would be best?:confused:

I like my A2 so far. Very good upconversion to my Mits LT-46231 with HDMI.
Will the XA2 be that much better? The XA2 just seems like such a great unit. Almost over built really. The new GIII Toshiba players don't seem as substantial as even the A2, let alone the XA2.:rolleyes:

I had the XA2 for a short while and upconversion is excellent with SD but decided to go with the A2 and save $300.00. I find the upconversion with the A2 to be very good as well. I watched the new Bourne movie which was a SD disc and the PQ was excellent.

The XA2 I am sure would have been better but by how much I am not sure. I can not believe the XA2 price is back up over $600.00 at most dealers. The one I had was $499.00 (new) at BB a couple of months ago. But I am glad I got the A2 as it has played without issue. I guess it is all in what you wish to pay to get the best possible PQ and SQ:).

Bill

rpauls

01-09-08, 11:29 AM

Hi guys,
Still enjoying my XA2 very much! I've been away from this thread for a while and I was wondering if any of the following have been addressed. Please help me out if you can.

(1) Is there a way to get BTB and WTW to output from the XA2 yet? (other than cranking up the XA2's brightness, of course)?

(2) Does anyone know where I can purchase a replacement fan? Mine is broken and needs to be bumped to stop squealing every time I turn it on.

(3) When using the optical output to an audio processor/amp, should I set the XA2 on bitstream or PCM?

(4) Have any new XA2 technical threads started up in the last 2 mos that I might want to monitor?

Thanks,

Rich