It'll be very intersting to see movie sales trend on Amazon (I don't know of any other place that puts out daily reports) after the PS3 comes out....

Keep an eye on this site: The DVD Wars (http://www.thedvdwars.com/index.cfm)

Paul

Firstly, Thanks to Robert for giving us the full scoop as customers. I appreciate the tuthfulness.

Secondly, another kudos to Robert for offering some "silver lining' to keep us as satisifed customers, whrn it not his issue but Toshiba's! I certainly hope no speculation that may arise here as to what Robert is cooking up leads to expressions of disappointment here if it doesn't "meet up" with their personal expectations. Let's please remember he's one of the good guys here, not only as a supplier to us, but as a great laison to Toshiba.

Lastly, I'll add a silver lining hope of my own: Perhaps the faulty chip is one responsible for decoding and/or video output, and it's replacement makes 24p via a future firmware upgrade a snap!

Chris, the A2, A1 and XA1 would be judder free on a PDP-5070HD.

-Robert

Robert, can you clarify? The poster referred to getting "1080p24 jutter free".

At least for the A1 and A2, no 24-multiple output exists, so that 3:2 cadence judder will still be present.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop on the issues with Toshiba. Informed is good.

I can't see anyone jumping to BR because of a month delay. Things aren't that bad!

Toshiba just needs to make an announcement of a firm release date and offer a good discount for pre orders and all will be well.

They need to use some of that $150,000,000.00 ad budget for the pre-order discounts. Most people would be very happy about that as long as they were confident they would get the player before Christmas.

I bought my A1 rather late and thought that Robert's deal was over. I got mine from Amazon. I love the machine and HD-DVD! :D

When I buy a next-gen--it will probably be G3, not G2--player for upstairs, I will buy it from Robert. Everything I see here suggests that he is a class act. :)

When I buy, my wife can enjoy HD movies on the "smaller" 56" Sammy. ;)

Just to put things in perspective, the A1 is still out in the market place, so it is exaggerating it a little to say that Toshiba does not have a player available. Given the discounts on the A1 (including lower markups by retailers), it'll have good sales numbers for the holiday shoppers (possibly even better than the A2 even if the A2 was released this week).

Note, for those who are PS3 fans, the delays on that machine is much bigger than Toshiba. And it is only G1. BTW, Samsung had troubles with their BR players as well, and they are only on G1 as well. Wanting to be on the cutting edge of technology has it's price.

But it definitely has me thinking twice about why I ordered an A2 given I think BD will be more popular in the end. . . . Oh yeah, now I remember: high def player at half the price, 2nd gen available now, and some movies that I want that won't be available on BD for years, .... well, 2 out of 3 isn't bad.

By then, when (if in my opinion) BD gets more popular, universal players will be the norm, so you can stock up on HDDVD all you want and not worrying about it "lossing" the Video War. IMHO, I wouldn't be surprised if by the time Bluray becomes mature, the higher capacity is needed ... etc, that we will be talking about UV Rays and super HD :D !!!

Robert, can you clarify? The poster referred to getting "1080p24 jutter free".

At least for the A1 and A2, no 24-multiple output exists, so that 3:2 cadence judder will still be present.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop on the issues with Toshiba. Informed is good.

I'm a bit confused on the same issue. I think what Robert is saying is the Pioneer 5070 can take the 1080i60 and turn it back into 24 frames and then display that at 72hz. He has the 6070 on his site so I'm sure he's given this a test drive.

I preordered last night. Keeping my figures crossed for a Dec 12th ship.

Chris

This has to be a major blow to Toshiba!
The scenario of not having a product on the retail shelves at Christmas is interesting. Lived through one of those...

In the late 80's I worked for RadioShack when their early PC’s were hot sellers. Don't remember the exact model but it may have been the Tandy 1000SX & 1000EX. Due to unexpected sales volume on black Friday, shortages occurred and supply was scarce to non-existent all the way through to February. The big Christmas sales flyers had already been printed and mailed before Thanksgiving with the two now out of stock computers on the front cover (and at a sale price to make matters even worse).
What ensued in the stores was not pretty... people acted as if RadioShack single handedly killed Christmas. We were threatened, bribed, and even a few trucks got broken into in search of the new computers.
Finally some wise guy in Ft Worth (RadioShack HQ) came up with the “genius” idea of having cards printed that said "Someone has bought you a new computer- as soon as it's available- it will be delivered to you"... the card had a picture of the new computer on it. Ft Worth expected people to pay in full for the computer, and in turn we were to issue them this stupid little card to put under the tree. Well, I don't have to tell you that plan was a disaster! Lots of bad PR for quite a long time after that. People need a box with something in it to put under the tree!
The real shame was, that by next Christmas there were plenty of new Tandy computers in the stores for sale, but the competition (IBM, Apple, and others) had stepped in and filled the demand gaps, computer sales at The Shack were never the same after that Christmas debacle.

Is Toshiba setting themselves up for the competition (Sony, Samsung) to step in? Granted, this latest delay isn’t completely Toshiba’s fault… but you would think the QC on the first run of a brand new high-end product would have caught a major defect before the product left the country.

Ouch this spoiled my weekend a little.

Oh Well it looks like I will be getting the Xbox360 HDDVD for now and maybe sell it when the Toshiba HDA2 comes out.
I want the dvd upconverting and standalone convienence and sleek black case.

Just to put things in perspective, the A1 is still out in the market place, so it is exaggerating it a little to say that Toshiba does not have a player available. Given the discounts on the A1 (including lower markups by retailers), it'll have good sales numbers for the holiday shoppers (possibly even better than the A2 even if the A2 was released this week).
That is only true in US, and we don't even know if it is still in production (I'd highly doubt it).

--Patrice

My preorder for an A2 was:
Time of Order: 9/16/2006 1:40:33 PM

Anyone have that beat? :D

Mine: Time of Order: 9/16/2006 12:40:46 PM, :D

Mine: Time of Order: 9/16/2006 12:40:46 PM, :D

Thats mean!!!

Robert, can you clarify? The poster referred to getting "1080p24 jutter free".

At least for the A1 and A2, no 24-multiple output exists, so that 3:2 cadence judder will still be present.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop on the issues with Toshiba. Informed is good.
Steve, I certainly yield to you on this, but since the Pioneer PDP-5070HD is a native 720p display, I don't think it would make any difference if you feed it with a A1, XA1 or XA2.

Also, I can see judder on my JVC HD10k front projector, which is native 1080p 24 when I feed any signal into it without a good external scaler, but I do not see any judder on my Pioneer PDP-5070HD.

-Robert

Robert,

when are we preorder folks going to hear what the "silver lining" is? cant stop checking my email.

Hi Robert,

Can you confirm the 12/11 release date you had yesterday for A2 ?

--Patrice

I can't see anyone jumping to BR because of a month delay. Things aren't that bad!



I think the statement above says it BEST.

I'm sure you are all disappointed about any Toshiba Gen 2 Delay.

As someone who has owned his A1 SINCE DAY ONE - I can tell you it is worth waiting for.

As someone who bought a Samsung DAY ONE - [and returned it] - Blu Ray is not exactly a viable alternative - yet. I had a SONY Blu-Ray on order since August. As their date kept slipping until who knows when - I did cancel my Sony Order. I have a Pioneer Elite Blu Ray on Order. When will they start shipping - I have no idea. Panasonic does have some blu ray players out there but trying to buy one is very hard.

So why not wait for the Toshiba? It is not like you have a hundred alternative choices and it will be great when it does how up. That is my TWO CENT Opinion as a Toshiba Owner.

That is only true in US, and we don't even know if it is still in production (I'd highly doubt it).

--Patrice

True, the A1 is only available in the US. Also, I believe the production of the A1 has stopped, but there seems to be excess inventory in the supply chain that is being worked out. Plus, we can throw in the conspiracy hypothesis that Toshiba is just trying to move the last bit of the A1 out of their inventory to the distributors (or helping the distributors move the A1 to the retailers) :eek:

I think the statement above says it BEST.

I'm sure you are all disappointed about any Toshiba Gen 2 Delay.

As someone who has owned his A1 SINCE DAY ONE - I can tell you it is worth waiting for.

As someone who bought a Samsung DAY ONE - [and returned it] - Blu Ray is not exactly a viable alternative - yet. I had a SONY Blu-Ray on order since August. As their date kept slipping until who knows when - I did cancel my Sony Order. I have a Pioneer Elite Blu Ray on Order. When will they start shipping - I have no idea. Panasonic does have some blu ray players out there but trying to buy one is very hard.

So why not wait for the Toshiba? It is not like you have a hundred alternative choices and it will be great when it does how up. That is my TWO CENT Opinion as a Toshiba Owner.

It is a retail problem of huge proportions. On the shelf are blue ray players but no HD DVD players? People are willing to pay more to have it for Christmas. No HD DVD players under the tree?

- Rich

Hi Robert,

Can you confirm the 12/11 release date you had yesterday for A2 ?

--Patrice

Yes, I have confirmed the new scheduled A2 USA first delivery for the week of 12/11/06 personally with the highest level senior executive directly in charge of Toshiba USA DAV products.

-Robert

It is a retail problem of huge proportions. On the shelf are blue ray players but no HD DVD players? People are willing to pay more to have it for Christmas. No HD DVD players under the tree?

- Rich

I DO NOT KNOW where you are Shopping but the ONLY Blu-Ray player on the Shelf is the Samsung.

I think the statement above says it BEST.

I'm sure you are all disappointed about any Toshiba Gen 2 Delay.

As someone who has owned his A1 SINCE DAY ONE - I can tell you it is worth waiting for.

As someone who bought a Samsung DAY ONE - [and returned it] - Blu Ray is not exactly a viable alternative - yet. I had a SONY Blu-Ray on order since August. As their date kept slipping until who knows when - I did cancel my Sony Order. I have a Pioneer Elite Blu Ray on Order. When will they start shipping - I have no idea. Panasonic does have some blu ray players out there but trying to buy one is very hard.

So why not wait for the Toshiba? It is not like you have a hundred alternative choices and it will be great when it does how up. That is my TWO CENT Opinion as a Toshiba Owner.

The issue for some of us is that the A2 was to be our FIRST HD player. I'm not going to spend $500+ dollars on a first gen player know all the problems it has. I'm just not doing it, then only to turn around take a huge loss in selling it and have to purchase an A2 ($450+). That is not economically viable option for me and others.

The other option (only) is the 360 add-on drive. I did purchase that $200 and it is a nice temporary fix. The video is awesome, but the downside is the audio just isn't there. So really I'm not enjoying my HD-DVD experience the way I would like to.

This is just how I feel.

I just don't see the delay as that big of a deal. These type of delays probably happen on other products we never hear about. Toshiba is relying on another company to provide them a chip to Toshiba's specs. That company did something wrong in manufacturing the chip. Toshiba should have caught it before now but thank goodness they caught it before it hit the market.

My Pioneer Elite TV had a flaw in the video drive cards that caused red or green streaks to scroll accross the screen. Pioneer issued three fixes before they finally got it right. In the process I took four days off work to meet people to work on it and spent numerous hours on the phone with Pioneer. The picture has never looked as good as it was before all of this went on. Pioneer tracked down the problem to an ic on the cards that was made by but an outside supplier. Pioneer should have caught this before final production and QC. They didn't and it turned into a major headache for Pioneer owners and a class action lawsuit for Pioneer. The problem is the damage was already done and I will never buy another Pioneer product.

Yes the delay comes at a bad time but what are you going to do. I've looked really hard at buying a Blu-Ray player but after looking at everything I just could not justify that kind of money for the releases they are offering.

Anyway sorry for the long post but I think people need to just sit back and relax and enjoy your upcoming holiday and we'll get our A2's soon enough.

Later,

Jim

Yes, I have confirmed the new scheduled A2 USA first delivery for the week of 12/11/06 personally with the highest level senior executive directly in charge of Toshiba USA DAV products.

-Robert
Thanks Robert,

Do you trade outside US ? :D

Aside the joke, that would mean Toshiba is realy not taking his European customers seriously by stating "February 2007" !

--Patrice

Is Toshiba setting themselves up for the competition (Sony, Samsung) to step in?

Let's see, the Toshiba HD-A2 is $499, the Samsung is $899-$999. You must run with a different crowd than I do, because with the difference in price, everybody I know would wait until the $499 one was available.

Granted, the cheapest PS3 is $499 as well, but I doubt many people will be able to find them... whereas the HD-A2 should be out before Christmas.

The PS3 will be doing a lot of sales this Christmas, but most everyone I've spoken to thinks that $499-$599 for the PS3 is just too expensive, and will wait until it goes down. The XBox 360 and Nintendo Wii though seems to be very popular (especially the Wii).

Also, other than the PS3 (and a few 360 add-ons), I don't really see HD DVD or Blu-Ray players being that big this Christmas given the high prices of the hardware, the format war (which will weigh heavily on some people's mind), and the limited amount of PS3s, as well as the lack of information out there regarding the formats, the higher prices of the software, the consumers being pleased with DVD, and the fact that a lot of people believe that if they have an HDTV, they are watching HD DVD.

~Alan

I am checking my home emails entirely too much from work in anticipation of the silver lining. ;)

Ok,

Mine:
Time of Order: 9/26/2006 1:20:13 PM
Order Type: Email
Order ID: 1*****

No email yet.

I am very curious about this incentive Robert.

I have stockpiled 30+ DVD's and was hoping to spend my Thanksgiving birthday weekend in HD heaven.

The PS3 will be doing a lot of sales this Christmas, but most everyone I've spoken to thinks that $499-$599 for the PS3 is just too expensive, and will wait until it goes down. The XBox 360 and Nintendo Wii though seems to be very popular (especially the Wii).
~Alan

Lol, good luck trying to find a PS3 at MSRP before next year. Europe's launch is further delayed, and the initial shipment this Friday is less than anticipated (but will reach full projected allocation by Christmas, according to what I heard). Ebay is already selling the "presales" on the $599 Premium version in the $1400-$1600 range generally (with some well above that range).

Today, work emails doesn´t look so important to me, I am waiting for a special "email"...

Robert, please... :confused:

As a first overview on European forums give the feeling nobody is trusting Toshiba in the very reason of delay... It sounds pretty impossible such failure on a ship can be spotted so late... Especially having in mind nobody ever seen those players, no press tests, no "official" release date was given, etc...

Bad wake up this morning, lots of doubts... Hope Toshiba will make clear statements soon.

--Patrice

The statement would not be made at the time the problem was spotted. The statement would be made after the company had time to evaluate the problem, define an optimal solution, and get everything in place to make the solution happen.

Be assured, Toshiba wouldn't say a word (let alone a date) until they felt they had everything completely under control.

Lol, good luck trying to find a PS3 at MSRP before next year.

They were talking about waiting a couple of years for it to go down, or just waiting until the PS4 came out. Long story short, everyone I know lost interest in the PS3 once they found out the price.

~Alan

I am very curious about this incentive Robert.

I'm hoping it's the HD-XA2 for the $9 that its listed as on the Value Electronics website. ;)

~Alan<~~~~~~~~~Who believes he already knows...

Steve, I certainly yield to you on this, but since the Pioneer PDP-5070HD is a native 720p display, I don't think it would make any difference if you feed it with a A1, XA1 or XA2.

Also, I can see judder on my JVC HD10k front projector, which is native 1080p 24 when I feed any signal into it without a good external scaler, but I do not see any judder on my Pioneer PDP-5070HD.

-Robert


I was more addressing the issue of the fact that 24p-to-60i judder would still be present, rather than the resolution issue.

I was asking for clarification, as I don't know these displays, and thought perhaps they pulled the framerate back down to 24p internally.

Robert,

when are we preorder folks going to hear what the "silver lining" is? cant stop checking my email.

By the end of business today. I am still shoring up the very best deals with Toshiba and other vendors as we speak.

-Robert

Also, I can see judder on my JVC HD10k front projector, which is native 1080p 24 when I feed any signal into it without a good external scaler, but I do not see any judder on my Pioneer PDP-5070HD.I'm pretty sure the HD10K is native 1080p60 (or 1080p50 when fed that), not 1080p24. Does it even accept a 1080p24 signal? I am just about positive that the HD10K cannot take a 1080i signal and output at a multiple of 24Hz. The 24Hz modes are things some of us have asked JVC to support with their next projector and I believe the one coming out in February will take 1080p24 and display at a multiple of that, but I doubt it will convert 1080i60 to a multiple of 1080p24.


I think somebody should start a poll about whether the A2 will be on any store shelves in the US by December 18th (basically meaning they would have shipped by the week of the 11th). Or maybe one asking how many people believe the reason given for the delay is really the whole reason. Many of us who have worked in high tech know that reasons given to the public or people who talk to the public are often different than the one (or more) known to the engineers, or at the very least is misleading. And to be clear, not completely trusting the information doesn't reflect on Robert at all as he is just passing on what he was told. If Toshiba really has known that they were going to slip for some time then they have left Robert hanging out there telling people that the units were going to ship this week, even though they knew better. And if they didn't know and just discovered a problem with a part that needs to be replaced because there are problems with some discs, then why haven't we seen any demo units playing other discs and why is the time given for when they will ship so short for a hardware change?

I remember reading just last week that a European Toshiba rep had said that the units were stuck in customs. In my experience, that is one of those excuses that gets pulled out for a lot of delays and isn't always accurate. And the guy not even using his A2, but demoing with an HD-XA1 didn't lend much credence to his claim.

--Darin

Robert -

If one were to place a "pre-order" now, would they be eligible for that "silver lining"?

Thanks in advance!!!

Patrice, do you have a link to the Toshiba France press release? Is it posted on your site or Toshiba's site?

-Robert

I am not Patrice, but here are the links from France and Germany:

1. Original in French (http://www.hdnumerique.com/actualite/articles/14112006-toshiba-decale-le-lancement-du-hd-dvd-pour-janvier-2007.html) and its English Translation. (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdnumerique.com%2Factualite%2Fa rticles%2F14112006-toshiba-decale-le-lancement-du-hd-dvd-pour-janvier-2007.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) This says January 2007 as release date for the HD-A2 equivalent.

2. Original in German (http://www.areadvd.de/news/2006/200611/14112006001_Toshiba_HD-E1.shtml) and its English Translation. (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.areadvd.de%2Fnews%2F2006%2F2006 11%2F14112006001_Toshiba_HD-E1.shtml&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) This says last week of December for the release of HD-A2 equivalent at the earliest. Also it says the "faulty" chip needs to be re-manufactured which they hope to be done within 14 days but as I mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8893659&&#post8893659), I doubt the time frame. Besides, after the chip replacement, quality control testing will follow again. However, better to wait than to have a half-cooked product.

I DO NOT KNOW where you are Shopping but the ONLY Blu-Ray player on the Shelf is the Samsung.

Not true, the Philips BDP9000 is now on the shelves at Wal mart and can also be bought on Amazon.

CD

Not true, the Philips BDP9000 is now on the shelves at Wal mart and can also be bought on Amazon.

CD

Great - Enjoy your Samsung with a Philips Logo on it!

Just to put things in perspective, the A1 is still out in the market place, so it is exaggerating it a little to say that Toshiba does not have a player available. Given the discounts on the A1 (including lower markups by retailers), it'll have good sales numbers for the holiday shoppers (possibly even better than the A2 even if the A2 was released this week).

Note, for those who are PS3 fans, the delays on that machine is much bigger than Toshiba. And it is only G1. BTW, Samsung had troubles with their BR players as well, and they are only on G1 as well. Wanting to be on the cutting edge of technology has it's price.
But there were only 70,000 players produced, so you can't have it both ways. Either you run out of players because you sell all 70,000 or there is no demand and you don't sell 70,000 players. So the best Toshiba can do is sell 70,000 players by mid December, which is not very good. They need to be hitting the 500,000 mark by March next year and I don't think that is going to happen.

-Mark

But there were only 70,000 players produced, so you can't have it both ways. Either you run out of players because you sell all 70,000 and don't have anymore players to sell or you have players to sell which means less than 70,000 players have sold.Exactly. I get the feeling some are going to want to double count some units.

--Darin

Ahhh its too bad, people will jump ship im afraid.. but thats kind of silly if its just becasue of a wait time.... but I guess I understand either way.

Im going today to look for a HD-A1 I know there are a few outthere, I saw 2 boxes of them at Best Buy.... gonna get one, I dont want to wait any longer, as long as it works im happy. And I could always return it.

What sucks is I just saw that Toshiba put up their new HD-A2 info and ads on their website... lame!

And yes we all understand product delays for CE equipment. It is quite common and a month or two delay is not really all that bad, but the problem is magnified greatly because of a few things:

1. Christmas shopping season.
2. Middle of format wat
3. No other stand alone HD DVD players available

So if it wasn't for the three things above, then it wouldn't be that big of deal, but this delay came at the worst possible time for Toshiba. We will see how much it affects the format war, but you can't argue that this was the worst time it could happen. I believe HD DVD was close to getting Lion’s Gate and maybe even Disney, but now that the PS3 is out and HD DVD had this bad slip up, it just further delays them releasing on HD DVD. Pretty much this blows the momentum that HD DVD fought so hard to obtain.

-Mark

I DO NOT KNOW where you are Shopping but the ONLY Blu-Ray player on the Shelf is the Samsung.

Amazon.Com has these in stock:

- Samsung BD-P1000 Blu-Ray Disc Player
- Philips BDP9000 Blu-Ray Disc Player

- Rich

Amazon.Com has these in stock:

- Samsung BD-P1000 Blu-Ray Disc Player
- Philips BDP9000 Blu-Ray Disc Player

- Rich

Previous post - SAME PLAYER.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8895786&&#post8895786

In my books the real silver lining is that Toshiba has a dealer like Robert. I never bought from him, but going by his posts what a class act!

Previous post - SAME PLAYER.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8895786&&#post8895786

If there were a winner to the format war, I would prefer HD DVD. But if the Christmas season arrives with Sony and Panasonic BD players and no new HD DVD player and low stock on the A1, that is very bad.

I just hope that does not happen.

- Rich

What are people really expecting this "silver lining" to be? I think people might be getting their expectations way up there...Robert runs a business, it is not as though he will be able to give you an A1/XA1 while you wait for your A2...my bet would be he will try to offer you a substitute deal based on his last post, and I wouldn't expect anything more of him either.

Missing the holiday season will hurt, if that is in fact what will happen...no two ways about it.

Only saving grace they may have is that BD is "effectively" missing the holiday season as well in regards to standalone players!

What are people really expecting this "silver lining" to be? I think people might be getting their expectations way up there...Robert runs a business, it is not as though he will be able to give you an A1/XA1 while you wait for your A2...my bet would be he will try to offer you a substitute deal based on his last post, and I wouldn't expect anything more of him either.

Missing the holiday season will hurt, if that is in fact what will happen...no two ways about it.

Only saving grace they may have is that BD is "effectively" missing the holiday season as well in regards to standalone players!
I know, don't set your expectations too high. Robert can't (and shouldn't have to) shoulder the burden for Toshiba's mistake. Be glad you get anything at all. The better attitude is to not expect anything, then you will be pleasantly surprised. :D Just like watching a movie. :)

-Mark

If there were a winner to the format war, I would prefer HD DVD. But if the Christmas season arrives with Sony and Panasonic BD players and no new HD DVD player and low stock on the A1, that is very bad.

I just hope that does not happen.

- Rich

As of today - there are - No Sony's Available - No Pioneer's - Panasonic is basically sold out with MAYBE more coming for Christmas. I don't believe any format war will be decided this Christmas season with such poor availability from all the CE Manufacturers - regardless of FORMAT.

What are people really expecting this "silver lining" to be? I think people might be getting their expectations way up there...Robert runs a business, it is not as though he will be able to give you an A1/XA1 while you wait for your A2...my bet would be he will try to offer you a substitute deal based on his last post, and I wouldn't expect anything more of him either.

Missing the holiday season will hurt, if that is in fact what will happen...no two ways about it.

Only saving grace they may have is that BD is "effectively" missing the holiday season as well in regards to standalone players!

No one is expecting him or wants him to lose money. But I detect a more customer friendly approach from him. I haven't met him in person, but I sense he understands that people are upset and would like to do something about it.....not earth shattering, but a nice touch all the same. IMHO.

I am simply comparing his attitude with a vendor that I placed an order for a Panasonic plasma with last year. That's all....

I don't believe any format war will be decided this Christmas season with such poor availability from all the CE Manufacturers - regardless of FORMAT.

THANK YOU!!

I expect software sales to remain pretty consistent with what is happening now with HD DVD continuing to be the sales leader.

I expect there to be a sales bump for Blu-Ray, but I expect the 360 add-on to keep it pretty consistent.

Next Spring is when I expect things to start being decided.

~Alan

Steve, I certainly yield to you on this, but since the Pioneer PDP-5070HD is a native 720p display, I don't think it would make any difference if you feed it with a A1, XA1 or XA2.

Also, I can see judder on my JVC HD10k front projector, which is native 1080p 24 when I feed any signal into it without a good external scaler, but I do not see any judder on my Pioneer PDP-5070HD.

-Robert

Robert-

I know you are EXTREMELY busy at the moment, but is there anyway you could confirm with Pioneer that a 1080p60i and 1080p24 from a HD-DVD player would be displayed equivalently on the x070 models? (I assume the best case would be 24x3 = 72hz judder free) The cnet review didn't have good things to say about the PureCinema mode, although I have no idea what they were using for an input.

http://reviews.cnet.com/Pioneer_PDP_5070HD/4505-6482_7-31951817.html

I'd really appreciate it as always.

Chris

THANK YOU!!


Next Spring is when I expect things to start being decided.

~Alan

MY POINT exactly. All you have now is the EARLY ADOPTERS buying.

It won't be a real mainstream consumer product until NEXT Christmas.

Robert -

If one were to place a "pre-order" now, would they be eligible for that "silver lining"?

Thanks in advance!!!

Yes.

-Robert

MY POINT exactly. All you have now is the EARLY ADOPTERS buying.

It won't be a real mainstream consumer product until NEXT Christmas.

Exactly! The early adopters are also the people who most likely have decided which way they are going to go, and therefore will not be swayed by a Blu-Ray player if the Toshiba's are delayed.

The people who are buying the PS3 as a Blu-Ray player more than likely have already begun purchasing/pre-ordering titles in anticipation of the PS3. The people who are buying the PS3 as a gaming machine will probably not be spending their money (or at least much of it) on Blu-Ray movies until after the New Year.

If both formats are still around by next Christmas (and I really hope it's not that drawn out), that's when things should start to get interesting...

~Alan

And yes we all understand product delays for CE equipment. It is quite common and a month or two delay is not really all that bad, but the problem is magnified greatly because of a few things:

1. Christmas shopping season.
2. Middle of format war
3. No other stand alone HD DVD players available

I think we all understand CE can be delayed or have last minute issue(s)... And as you highlight that very case is clearly not good at all for HD-DVD (even considering only early adopters).

But I'd add another point, Assuming Robert is right (and I have no doubt he trust people that told him) A2 will be delivered to you guys in about three weeks (12/11).
Then there is no point in saying 1th of February for the European release date.

In one of the statement published above, they say it was a problem they highlight at pre-prod sample QC testing (before mass manufacturing). No way the players could have been delivered this week knowing this (although they maintain release date until yesterday)

I'm nearly convinced Toshiba use that issue as an excuse, or it even did not exist at all... They may well have a short supply + a bit of delay and simply decide to only feed US...

--Patrice

But I'd add another point, Assuming Robert is right (and I have no doubt he trust people that told him) A2 will be delivered to you guys in about three weeks (12/11).That shipping the week of 12/11 keeps changing to these being delivered to consumers on 12/11. Even best case it is more like a month from now minimum. Even if they hit what they said, there is a good chance they won't be in stores until the 18th.

--Darin

That shipping the week of 12/11 keeps changing to these being delivered to consumers on 12/11. Even best case it is more like a month from now minimum. Even if they hit what they said, there is a good chance they won't be in stores until the 18th.

If HD DVD players were aimed more toward women, that would work out great since no man shops before December 24th! ;)

~Alan

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhh, the carnage.

Since I preorded the HDA2 a while ago-I am kinda getting all worked up over this silver lining thing robert keeps hinting at- can't wait to hear what it is! I am like a child sometimes when it comes to this stuff. :D
thetman

What do you think guys?

Wait for de HDA2 or buy an AX1 now?

The silver lining email is in the final stages. Hopefully within the next hour or two.

-Robert

What do you think guys?

Wait for de HDA2 or buy an AX1 now?

I bought a XA1 in the interim because of special circumstances.

I am ready for that email :)

I'm just following the Toshiba G2s and don't intend on ordering, but Robert's even got me excited regarding this email. :D

Because of the delay of the HDA2 I'm thinking in buying an HDAX1, but I'm waiting Robert's "silver lining" before I cancel my preorder.

I agree that it's not good from a marketing stand point, but, seriously, it's not the end of the world.
If people buy a BD player this holiday season, because there are NO stand alone HD DVD players...
IT IS "THE END OF THE WORLD"!!! :eek:

"Not good from a marketing stand point"...
:confused:

Because of the delay of the HDA2 I'm thinking in buying an HDAX1, but I'm waiting Robert's "silver lining" before I cancel my preorder.

I strongly suspect that is what the "silver lining" will be, an offer to purchase a 1G player at a great price...

If people buy a BD player this holiday season, because there are NO stand alone HD DVD players...
IT IS "THE END OF THE WORLD"!!! :eek:

"Not good from a marketing stand point"...
:confused:


For my HD DVD's in my collection IT IS "The end of the world"... at least for one more month... :(

I strongly suspect that is what the "silver lining" will be, an offer to purchase a 1G player at a great price...It looks that way to me too, but that would seem to contradict the claims about 70,000 G1 players being out if that is how many they made. Basically, if they are all out there, where would the G1 players come from for a deal unless they recalled them from some places?

--Darin

If people buy a BD player this holiday season, because there are NO stand alone HD DVD players...
IT IS "THE END OF THE WORLD"!!! :eek:

"Not good from a marketing stand point"...
:confused:

If you found that a $500 item was unavailable, would you spend $250+ more on something else? I sure wouldn't. Until Blu-Ray gets the pricing down to HD DVD's level, I really don't see this yielding an increase of Blu-Ray purchases.

It looks that way to me too, but that would seem to contradict the claims about 70,000 G1 players being out if that is how many they made. Basically, if they are all out there, where would the G1 players come from for a deal unless they recalled them from some places?

--Darin

Robert just stated yesterday I believe that Toshiba had shipped 69,000 players so far and were getting ready to ship the last 1,000...I'm not sure what it contradicts...

Robert just stated yesterday I believe that Toshiba had shipped 69,000 players so far and were getting ready to ship the last 1,000...I'm not sure what it contradicts...I remember reading the 70k number a while ago. Maybe I'm wrong and others can fill this in, but my memory is that some in the HD DVD camp were already toughting 70k players in the marketplace over a month ago.

--Darin

I remember reading the 70k number a while ago. Maybe I'm wrong and others can fill this in, but my memory is that some in the HD DVD camp were already toughting 70k players in the marketplace over a month ago.

--Darin

i only ever recall 70K coming up in the context of the total number of 1G units to be produced by Toshiba...i could be wrong.

Waiting on that email. :)

i only ever recall 70K coming up in the context of the total number of 1G units to be produced by Toshiba...i could be wrong.Here is what Robert said yesterday before giving the 69,000 number later:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8889587#post8889587

HD DVD has 70,000 G1 players in the market to the biggest HD customers and now with the Xbox HD DVD player and a surprise from me more HD DVD hardware will be out to continue to fuel HD DVD software sales. Also as more HD DVDs are released the HD DVD market will grow.If the deal is more G1 players and after that the result is 70,000 G1 players, then I think that is somewhat contradictory to claiming "70,000 G1 players in the market" and "more HD DVD hardware". Yes, I know that people could claim that the 70,000 was rounded, but then the "more" doesn't really result in more than the claim already made.

Okay, I just found a post from 7 weeks ago from Robert here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8525471&&#post8525471

that said:
I am surprised to read your post. We know Toshiba has already sold 70,000 HD DVD players in the US alone so the current customer base is infinitely larger for HD DVD and the adult producers can easily sell 5000 to 10000 titles of the easier to produce HD DVD discs.I know Robert is a nice guy, but 6 weeks ago the claim was that they had sold 70,000 just in the US and now when they have a slip the number changes to 69,000 out there with 1,000 left to sell. What happened over the last 7 weeks? And if they only had parts for 70,000 then have they sold zero outside the US?

Sorry, but this doesn't add up.

--Darin

OTOH I'd say this is good news for Xbox 360.

Why would this materially benefit XBOX 360? I personally wouldn't expect the typical customer for a standalone player to be that interested in a gaming system solution (same for PS3). On the other hand, an XBOX gamer would likely either own or purchase the XBOX 360 for games, and pick-up an HD-DVD add-on if also interested in HD-DVD.

The only impact I would expect if both were available is that XBOX 360 HD-DVD drives would pick-up some of what would otherwise have been A2 sales, not the other way around.

Here is what Robert said yesterday before giving the 69,000 number later:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8889587#post8889587

If the deal is more G1 players and after that the result is 70,000 G1 players, then I think that is somewhat contradictory to claiming "70,000 G1 players in the market" and "more HD DVD hardware". Yes, I know that people could claim that the 70,000 was rounded, but then the "more" doesn't really result in more than the claim already made.

Okay, I just found a post from 7 weeks ago from Robert here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8525471&&#post8525471

that said:
I know Robert is a nice guy, but 6 weeks ago the claim was that they had sold 70,000 just in the US and now when they have a slip the number changes to 69,000 out there with 1,000 left to sell. What happened over the last 7 weeks? And if they only had parts for 70,000 then have they sold zero overseas?

Sorry, but this doesn't add up.

--Darin


WOW, darin, do you realize how argumentative you've become? I didn't realize we were in a dispute here, you and i, otherwise i would have remained silent... :eek:

i haven't followed this thread that closesly, but i now see what you were talking about...

WOW, darin, do you realize how argumentative you've become? I didn't realize we were in a dispute here, you and i, otherwise i would have remained silent... :eek:I didn't think we were arguing. Just looking for info.

--Darin

This is exactly what makes me wonder too. If it was a problem with some single chip from a supplier to Toshiba as we are told now, how come the original design worked with the same chip? Besides, if that supplier needs to re-design the chip and/or manufacture a new batch, one month delay is way too short for it. Going to another supplier for a similar chip may also require some design changes if the part in question is not exact generic replacement component. I am not 100% buying this components argument. A PR (public relations) message is not necessarily the exact truth (true for all companies including Sony, Panny, Pio and Tosh). Said that, I have no problem waiting for HD-A2.

No point in trying to be knowledgable regarding the unknown. A batch of mis-programmed or defective gate array chips doesn't take many weeks to turn around. We don't know what the problem is -- making judgements based on second guessing doesn't answer the question.

I can't see anyone jumping to BR because of a month delay. Things aren't that bad!

Toshiba just needs to make an announcement of a firm release date and offer a good discount for pre orders and all will be well.

They need to use some of that $150,000,000.00 ad budget for the pre-order discounts. Most people would be very happy about that as long as they were confident they would get the player before Christmas.

Nope -- every cent of that money needs to be spent on attracting new buyers to HD-DVD. That money has to reach out to the potential customers who are not yet in the HD-DVD loop. Any other use is a waste of valuable resources.

Nope -- every cent of that money needs to be spent on attracting new buyers to HD-DVD. That money has to reach out to the potential customers who are not yet in the HD-DVD loop. Any other use is a waste of valuable resources.The best thing HD DVD can probably do right now is have players for people to buy that they then show off to their friends. It is good that the XBOX360 add-on is out there from that standpoint and I think getting lots of those manufactured so that people can buy them is probably more important than paying for ads, until the point that the add-ons stop selling out.

--Darin

I have to believe a LARGE portion of that money went into the mobile HD DVD experience...

And to be clear, not completely trusting the information doesn't reflect on Robert at all as he is just passing on what he was told. If Toshiba really has known that they were going to slip for some time then they have left Robert hanging out there telling people that the units were going to ship this week, even though they knew better.

The dealers are the front line, and as such inherently end up acting as buffers when the manufacturers hit snags. No market savy manufacturer will willingly indicate a problem exists without being able to provide closure at the same time. Any time the manufacture admits to a problem and doesn't specify closure is acknowledging a SERIOUS problem -- a delay that has to be acknowledged in order to preserve any market credibility.

The manufacturer knows that what they tell the dealers will in some form filter through to their customers. Therefore, the dealers will indeed not be part of the early communications loop when an issue is identified -- they know that. Most of the time, they are just as much in the dark as the rest of us.

The best thing HD DVD can probably do right now is have players for people to buy that they then show off to their friends. It is good that the XBOX360 add-on is out there from that standpoint and I think getting lots of those manufactured so that people can buy them is probably more important than paying for ads, until the point that the add-ons stop selling out.

--Darin

The 150M$ North American HD-DVD marketing budget is not for manufacturing purposes -- it's for marketing!

The 150M$ North American HD-DVD marketing budget is not for manufacturing purposes -- it's for marketing!I understand that. Just pointing what I think is most important for them to attract people and improve their chances of winning in the long run. And if they spend that money when they don't have any more players to sell it may end up being partially wasted. The best case scenario is obviously advertising to people who decide to buy and when they go to buy something, they can actually find something to buy.

I also don't remember reading a timeframe for that $150M and in those cases the devil can often be in the details. Their budget in the short term might not be as big as that makes it look.

--Darin

I understand that. Just pointing what I think is most important for them to attract people and improve their chances of winning in the long run. And if they spend that money when they don't have any more players to sell it may end up being partially wasted. The best case scenario is obviously advertising to people who decide to buy and when they go to buy something, they can actually find something to buy.

I also don't remember reading a timeframe for that $150M and in those cases the devil can often be in the details. Their budget in the short term might not be as big as that makes it look.

--Darin

I completely agree that marketing effort without product on shelves can easily work in favor of the competition -- no question. But when that product hits the shelves, it's blitz time including endcaps at BB, etc.

From what I read earlier, the 150M was in place back in August or so and targeted for Q4 use. Of course, how and when it actually gets spent in light of schedule adjustments and holiday phases is probably up to them. The later the introduction, the later the related spending, and massive spending at the last second before XMas probably won't get the boxes under trees without being highly effective at the individual retail locations -- some advance notice to consumers wouldn't hurt either.

The 150million marketing is pointless when you have no player to sell. I don't see MS promoting the HD DVD what so ever, either.

It's a shame too. HD DVD is a great product but neither MS or Toshiba are known for their marketing.

But when that product hits the shelves, it's blitz time including endcaps at BB, etc.That has to be tough around Christmas. I would think those would need to be reserved early for this part of the year. It is possible that we'll see endcaps and things with no players to sell (other than the XBOX360 add-ons that look like they will at least hold up their end) if the blitz has already been scheduled based on the G2 players being ready.

--Darin

HD DVD is a great product but neither MS or Toshiba are known for their marketing.What? MS does a great job of convincing people of certain things here. ;) :)

--Darin

Nope -- every cent of that money needs to be spent on attracting new buyers to HD-DVD. That money has to reach out to the potential customers who are not yet in the HD-DVD loop. Any other use is a waste of valuable resources.


I wasn't talking about the members of this forum.

The best way to attract new customers is to offer a discount if they pre-order the units now. Look at the excitement Robert has generated just by hinting that some kind of deal was coming for people that pre-ordered from him.

Advertising alone, for a product that you can't get, makes little since to me.

Silver lining my butt. That's all I'm going to say.

Didn't like the offer, I take it, or just cynical?

At this point, I'm waiting to see if I can get a PS3. Since I'm thinking it's not likely (I don't camp out or preorder) before Xmas, if not next year, I am still considering an XA1. It's an attractive player, but it's price would have to be very good. The G2's are going the wrong direction aesthetically (i must have silver)... Wonder if I can get in on this 'silver lining' yet...

Overstock still has the refurbs available with numerous online coupons out there.....

no likey

Silver lining my butt. That's all I'm going to say.

So did you get the email? I haven't gotten it yet and I pre ordered almost three weeks ago.

Didn't like the offer, I take it, or just cynical?

At this point, I'm waiting to see if I can get a PS3. Since I'm thinking it's not likely (I don't camp out or preorder) before Xmas, if not next year, I am still considering an XA1. It's an attractive player, but it's price would have to be very good. The G2's are going the wrong direction aesthetically (i must have silver)... Wonder if I can get in on this 'silver lining' yet...

Overstock still has the refurbs available with numerous online coupons out there.....

Silver lining for you then.....smoke and mirrors for me. I'm not complaining because he really doesn't owe me anything. It's my decision if I bail from preorder and his risk if I do. But I've decided I'll wait for the A2 thank you. No reason to be mad though, it's just not what I was hoping for. He is demonstrating good business PR though.

Xbox 360 drive here I come for the interim.

At this point, I'm waiting to see if I can get a PS3.
...
The G2's are going the wrong direction aesthetically (i must have silver)...Aren't the PS3s pretty much black? :)

--Darin

I must applaud Robert for this AMAZING customer service. Though there is nothing here for me personally to take advantage of, I can easily see how it would be extremely beneficial to many.

My hat's off sir!

I must applaud Robert for this AMAZING customer service. Though there is nothing here for me personally to take advantage of, I can easily see how it would be extremely beneficial to many.

My hat's off sir!

I agree! Sadly, does me no good.

Do I wait for the HD-A2, or do I get me an XBox 360 and the HD-DVD add-on? That is the question!!

~Alan

I must applaud Robert for this AMAZING customer service. Though there is nothing here for me personally to take advantage of, I can easily see how it would be extremely beneficial to many.

My hat's off sir!

Is there any particular reason for the secretiveness? I'm waiting to hear myself, but no e-mail. Feel free to ruin the "surprise".

I do appreciate Robert's offer. It's not like he's the one that needs to give us any deals. It's Toshiba that should be kissing our butts for pre-ordering their products.

If I didn't already have the 360 add on, I would have considered one of the deals, but since I have it, I can't see me taking advantage of any of the offers.

I'll just stick with the add-on for now. :(

Please, whats the deal with Robert?

Is there any particular reason for the secretiveness? I'm waiting to hear myself, but no e-mail. Feel free to ruin the "surprise".

It's specifically said not to post any details. Sorry.

It's specifically said not to post any details. Sorry.

Well feel free to PM me. With this and no e-mail forthcoming, I'm ready to cancel on principle, but Robert's such a good guy I wanted to give him the chance and hear from him first.

Silver lining my butt. That's all I'm going to say.

I agree on that... :confused:

Well feel free to PM me. With this and no e-mail forthcoming, I'm ready to cancel on principle, but Robert's such a good guy I wanted to give him the chance and hear from him first.

If you don't get the email, just PM or call him for the details.

Yep no e-mail here either.

Jim

Help here guys...

What player do you think is more worth it, the HDA2 or the AX1?

Help here guys...

What player do you think is more worth it, the HDA2 or the AX1?

A2 if it ever gets released. Assuming you can use Audio over HDMI

I only just now got the email.. I expect it will take a while for that many emails to get sent.

While none of the inidividual offers are ones I'll take him up on, I will say this to the rest of you posting negative comments:

THIS IS TOSHIBA'S DROPPED BALL, NOT ROBERTS. IF YOU WANT TO ALIENATE A VENDOR DOING HIS BEST TO PROVIDE GOOD SERVICE AND VALUE TO HIS CUSTOMERS DESPITE BEING CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE, THEN KEEP UP YOUR SMART-ASS REMARKS.

Otherwise, try to stop b!tching like little girls, and either take him up on his offer, or don't. If you don't like the situation, call TOSHIBA and see what compensation THEY give you.

Oh, and keep in mind that when you want a Gen-III player in '07, how you treat Robert here today will have a big impact on if you have him around to offer a fair price, good service, and additional incentive then.

Got the e-mail here.
Frankly, I think it's an amazing deal.
I'm considering taking one, not sure yet.
Not sure yet simply because Robert doesn't owe us anything. He gave a nice deal on pre-orders, and the delay is totally beyond his control and not of his doing. He went above and beyond to put this together in such a short time.
I'm also not sure yet because, well, he asked that we don't post details. If I say anymore, I'd be doing just that.
I'm also not sure yet because my life doesn't revolve around having an HD DVD player now as opposed to a month from now.
Some of you really need to chill out over this whole thing.
And read the offer and think......it really is quite good!

Thanks Robert!

Jack

I only just now got the email.. I expect it will take a while for that many emails to get sent.

While none of the inidividual offers are ones I'll take him up on, I will say this to the rest of you posting negative comments:

THIS IS TOSHIBA'S DROPPED BALL, NOT ROBERTS. IF YOU WANT TO ALIENATE A VENDOR DOING HIS BEST TO PROVIDE GOOD SERVICE AND VALUE TO HIS CUSTOMERS DESPITE BEING CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE, THEN KEEP UP YOUR SMART-ASS REMARKS.

Otherwise, try to stop b!tching like little girls, and either take him up on his offer, or don't. If you don't like the situation, call TOSHIBA and see what compensation THEY give you.

Oh, and keep in mind that when you want a Gen-III player in '07, how you treat Robert here today will have a big impact on if you have him around to offer a fair price, good service, and additional incentive then.


Well said!

All I can say is Thanks. I have never dealt with an individual that cared about his customers the way they do. He fought for us. See if your PS3 preorder don't get filled on launch day will Sony compensate anyone. NOOOO

While none of the inidividual offers are ones I'll take him up on.

Exactly, how many people will? With all the hype from Robert I thought it was something everybody could benefit from. I preordered the A2 for a reason. I still will support Robert and his business though.

I wasn't talking about the members of this forum.

The best way to attract new customers is to offer a discount if they pre-order the units now. Look at the excitement Robert has generated just by hinting that some kind of deal was coming for people that pre-ordered from him.

Advertising alone, for a product that you can't get, makes little since to me.

Sales oriented advertising without product on hand is definitely a mistake (can result in sales for the competition). All you can do at that time is information/education based advertising. Also a balancing act since the money needs to be there when product actually arrives. My guess is the marketing group was aware of the delay long before the dealers were.

A2 if it ever gets released. Assuming you can use Audio over HDMI

I don't have a hdmi receiver, so my only options are optical or analog.

I don't have a hdmi receiver, so my only options are optical or analog.

Then the Gen 1 is probably your best bet. Then either pick up an G2 when they drop in price or wait it out till the G3s are here.

For me personally the G1 is a step back.

I don't have a hdmi receiver, so my only options are optical or analog.

then get the XA1 cause it's a great deal

Thank you guys!

I guess it will be the AX1, and thanks Robert for giving me an excellent option! :D

I only just now got the email.. I expect it will take a while for that many emails to get sent.

While none of the inidividual offers are ones I'll take him up on, I will say this to the rest of you posting negative comments:

THIS IS TOSHIBA'S DROPPED BALL, NOT ROBERTS. IF YOU WANT TO ALIENATE A VENDOR DOING HIS BEST TO PROVIDE GOOD SERVICE AND VALUE TO HIS CUSTOMERS DESPITE BEING CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE, THEN KEEP UP YOUR SMART-ASS REMARKS.

Otherwise, try to stop b!tching like little girls, and either take him up on his offer, or don't. If you don't like the situation, call TOSHIBA and see what compensation THEY give you.

Oh, and keep in mind that when you want a Gen-III player in '07, how you treat Robert here today will have a big impact on if you have him around to offer a fair price, good service, and additional incentive then.


Well said.

I took him up on the offer. I don't have HDMI at all, so analog is the way to go. The free movies were a nice kick but this deal more than makes up for it.

I took him up on the offer. I don't have HDMI at all, so analog is the way to go. The free movies were a nice kick but this deal more than makes up for it.


Me too.. My XA1 arrives at my house in less than 48 hrs!

Here is what Robert said yesterday before giving the 69,000 number later:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8889587#post8889587

If the deal is more G1 players and after that the result is 70,000 G1 players, then I think that is somewhat contradictory to claiming "70,000 G1 players in the market" and "more HD DVD hardware". Yes, I know that people could claim that the 70,000 was rounded, but then the "more" doesn't really result in more than the claim already made.

Okay, I just found a post from 7 weeks ago from Robert here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8525471&&#post8525471

that said:
I know Robert is a nice guy, but 6 weeks ago the claim was that they had sold 70,000 just in the US and now when they have a slip the number changes to 69,000 out there with 1,000 left to sell. What happened over the last 7 weeks? And if they only had parts for 70,000 then have they sold zero outside the US?

Sorry, but this doesn't add up.

--Darin

Daren,

I stand corrected. However, the difference you are talking about is only 2000 units, 68,000 were shipped into distribution at the time of the post. What I did not know about at that time, was TACP's XA1s inventory. Considering that TACP's A1's and D1 and RCA's 5000's have been sold out since the middle of September I had a good basis to go on.

At that time my answer was more than 97 percent correct to the exact number. I think it was an excellent report. My most recent post you referenced, I came in 100% correct.

When making industry estimates even with educated information, calculating sales numbers when no official company statement leads me to support my information as pretty good.

-Robert

Robert,

Do you know how many Toshiba has sold outside the US? Did they only build 70,000 total as has been stated before?

--Darin

What? MS does a great job of convincing people of certain things here. ;) :)

--Darin


That's called "community management" but now we're opening up a can of worms :)

I believe you can still get the three free movies form Toshiba with the XA1.

Robert, I never met ya or bought anything from your store (Canuck here), but I just gotta tell you that we need more people like you up here. If you ever move up to Ontario, let me know, eh! Keep up the great work man, I have a feeling that you make a tremendous difference to the HD DVD community.

Nice. Those getting the XA1, this is a beautiful player. Watching Waterworld right now and awesome awesome picture and audio....best AV value I've owned :-)

Does anyone know whether or not you still have to buy the A2 if you take one of the other offers from Robert?

Hmmm... Toshiba screwed themselves over by discontinuing the A1 too early for the (so far) vapourware A2.

I guess this is one of the benefits of having just one manufacturer. Is the RCA one still widely available? Was it ever widely available? I've only ever seen the Toshibas.

OTOH, if it really does come out Dec. 11, that would be fine. What be bad is it got delayed to say Dec. 18 or much worse, the end of December.

Good thing that I canceled my pre-order 2 weeks ago. Probably goign to get either a ps3 or the sony blu-ray player instead.

Aren't the PS3s pretty much black? :)

--Darin


Well they had a silver one at E3! But indeed the reason that they're all black now doesn't make me any more inclined to camp out. :p

Hmm... i'm wondering what this deal was. I have analogs ready and waiting for an XA1...

According to the news, Toshiba will release HD-XF2 this Dec in Japan.
MSRP $498,HDMI 1.2a/1080i

XF2
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061115/tos1_04.jpg

Internal of XF2
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061115/tos1_05.jpg

XF2? How's that different from an A2?

Anything about other colors? A2W? Or the look of the D2?

I'm starting to feel left out here. Still no e-mail. :(

Jim

OTOH, if it really does come out Dec. 11, that would be fine. What be bad is it got delayed to say Dec. 18 or much worse, the end of December.Since it was something like "the week of the 11th", the 18th in stores wouldn't be a delay, but would be on time. That is, shipping the week of the 11th and on shelves the next week.

--Darin

I had bought an A1 to try it out while waiting for the A2. So now A2 is delayed and I need to decide to take Robert's offer or not.

My main problem with A1 was that is was dead slow. And the remote was almost unusable. I did not do any firmware upgrades on the A1. So my questions are:

1) Is XA1 as slow as A1? If so, does XA1 have any firmware upgrades that alleviate these problems?

2) How much faster are G2?

Robert you hinted that XA2 was faster? How much faster? I mean A1 was the most sluggish video device I ever used (including my first gen Betamax player back in the day). Speed is the only reason I'm waiting for G2. If there is not much difference I might as well get the XA1.

TIA for any feedback

UPDATE: I forgot to mention that I returned A1 anticipating A2.

1) Is XA1 as slow as A1? If so, does XA1 have any firmware upgrades that alleviate these problems?I believe they are about the same in that regard. I'm not sure why you would go for the XA1 over the A1 you already have unless it is for the lighted remote (which I think you can buy) or if you are one of the people who is into extreme audio performance for CDs and likes the XA1 build quality.

--Darin

I believe they are about the same in that regard. I'm not sure why you would go for the XA1 over the A1 you already have unless it is for the lighted remote (which I think you can buy) or if you are one of the people who is into extreme audio performance for CDs and likes the XA1 build quality.

--Darin

I had to return A1 ;)

Hmmm... Toshiba screwed themselves over by discontinuing the A1 too early for the (so far) vapourware A2.

I guess this is one of the benefits of having just one manufacturer. Is the RCA one still widely available? Was it ever widely available? I've only ever seen the Toshibas.

OTOH, if it really does come out Dec. 11, that would be fine. What be bad is it got delayed to say Dec. 18 or much worse, the end of December.


A2 is not vaporware. It is the same as XF2 in Japan which Toshiba annouced today they will release in Dec.

Look at the big picture. This holiday season belongs to the game console and large screen tv. Next gen CE player from both camp is just in noise level and won't affect the bottom line. It is much more important for Toshiba to release a robust player rather than catch this holiday season. Because we might not have another CE player at $499 to battle the other camp before 2Q2007. Annoucements maybe.

No email for me and I pre-ordered a few weeks ago. Is this just for people Robert has dealt with before?

2) How much faster are G2? Much, much faster.

It's more responsive to menus and operations, and loads HD-DVDs in 20-25 seconds, or 20+ seconds faster than the HD-A1. This is for early preproduction units; it's possible the final HD-A2 will be even faster / more responsive.

I pre-ordered on 10/30 and never received "the email."

For those who haven't received the e-mail yet, why not give them a call?
They have an 800 number.

No email for me yet and I placed my A2 order on 10/25. I checked my SPAM filter but its not in there either. I sent a PM to Robert but for some reason he's not monitoring this forum 24x7 :)

Anyone who got the email want to PM the few of us who didn't? Thanks.

I pre-ordered on 10/30 and never received "the email."Likewise for me (10/27). I think, though, he's got several hundred people on his pre-order list, so it may take a while for him to get to the end of the list. Either that, or maybe he's bcc'ing so many people at once that ISP's on the sending or receiving end are erroneously assuming it's spam & blocking it.

Craig in NJ

^^^ I'd guess it's the spam filter, as I noticed in the email that it was "Sent" to Robert and not my email address, which is a sure-fire red-flag for the spam filters..

Good thing that I canceled my pre-order 2 weeks ago. Probably goign to get either a ps3 or the sony blu-ray player instead.

You'll be waiting a lot longer for either of those options than an A2.

I pre-ordered as well but received no email..am I not worthy?
thetman :eek:

FWIW, the person who had told me of a possible delay had earlier told me that he saw an A2 and it was very fast and playback was smooth with no hdmi issues. The drives, error correction, hdmi implementation and software on the new player is all different. Even the internal CPU is different and more efficient. Because of the use of the interactivity features HD DVD players need to be pretty powerful. Without the interactivity we'd see HD DVD players for $299 and below.....just what I was told. So, we'll have to see how the BD players do once the Java BD is supported etc.

I definitely would prefer to wait for the 2nd generation players. However, if they get delayed again and I do not have the player by Christmas, I may have to abandon the HD format and stick with standard DVDs for a while. So far, I have purchased $150 worth of unusable HD DVDs, but due to more potential delays, I will not buy any more until the player has arrived and is hooked up.

The only thing this changes for me is my pre-buying of HD DVD titles. I think 7 is enough to hold me over until I can actually play them (unless Matrix comes out of course, then all bets are off). I appreciate the effort that went into this deal Robert, wish I had the extra cash around for one of the offers.

What do you think of some people having 31 HD-DVD and no player until February 2007 !

I can understand Toshiba prefers to allocate players to US and leave Europe without anything available (although it annoys me !!) But what I don't get is the technical excuse...

Why not saying clearly they can't have enough for christmas, like Sony (no PS3 until March) or Microsoft (Zune)... ? !

Sure we are not happy here and people on forums start to be very doubtfull of format future (although I think it's a bit exagerated)...

--Patrice

The press release in UK (http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/5533/6557/Toshiba-delay-hddvd-players-uk.phtml) blames the delay on a faulty LSI-manufactured component; and an e-mail reply to me from Toshiba America customer support says the delay in the US has nothing to do with faulty components, and is just a rescheduling of launch.. ;)



.. here are the links from France and Germany:

1. Original in French (http://www.hdnumerique.com/actualite/articles/14112006-toshiba-decale-le-lancement-du-hd-dvd-pour-janvier-2007.html) and its English Translation. (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdnumerique.com%2Factualite%2Fa rticles%2F14112006-toshiba-decale-le-lancement-du-hd-dvd-pour-janvier-2007.html&langpair=fr%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) This says January 2007 as release date for the HD-A2 equivalent.

2. Original in German (http://www.areadvd.de/news/2006/200611/14112006001_Toshiba_HD-E1.shtml) and its English Translation. (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.areadvd.de%2Fnews%2F2006%2F2006 11%2F14112006001_Toshiba_HD-E1.shtml&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) This says last week of December for the release of HD-A2 equivalent at the earliest. Also it says the "faulty" chip needs to be re-manufactured which they hope to be done within 14 days but as I mentioned here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8893659&&#post8893659), I doubt the time frame. Besides, after the chip replacement, quality control testing will follow again. However, better to wait than to have a half-cooked product.

The press release in UK (http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/5533/6557/Toshiba-delay-hddvd-players-uk.phtml) blames the delay on a faulty LSI-manufactured component; and an e-mail reply to me from Toshiba America customer support says the delay in the US has nothing to do with faulty components, and is just a rescheduling of launch.. ;)


Too funny.

You'd think they would get their stories together.

Whatever the reason, it better be a GOOD one for delaying, cause they would be selling a lot of players right now.


Ive thought hard on Robert's offer. I think it is very good, but I think I will wait for the A2. I want the responsiveness.

Good reason or bad, does it really matter? Toshiba screwed up on having the A2s ready for Christmas 2006.

I actually think all the pre-orders will be filled by xmas. Call me an optimist. :)

The press release in UK blames the delay on a faulty LSI-manufactured componentThis can mean almost anything. :)

That could be a general statement referring to any one of numerous IC companies -- Analog Devices, Broadcom, Silicon Image, etc. Or do they mean a chip manufactured by the company, LSI Logic? LSI Logic makes this (http://www.lsi.com/files/docs/marketing_docs/consumer/dominoxbrief.pdf), although earlier reports suggested the HD-A2 would use a solution from Broadcom.

The press release in UK (http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/5533/6557/Toshiba-delay-hddvd-players-uk.phtml) blames the delay on a faulty LSI-manufactured component; and an e-mail reply to me from Toshiba America customer support says the delay in the US has nothing to do with faulty components, and is just a rescheduling of launch.. ;)

So a cynical person could think that Toshiba management saw a bunch of XA1s in stock that would become near worthless anchors when the outstanding A2s are released and made up this A2 delay story to clear out the XA1s. In fact they may have a bunch of A2s ready to deliver and are delaying their release until nearly no XA1s are left, or so few that eating them won’t affect the bottom line.

We all need to do our part by buying up the XA1 now so we can get the A2 sooner. Lets all buy three XA1s…. and then we may have A2s next week …

Whether the XA1 would be an anchor is a management impression of course, not mine :rolleyes:

I actually think all the pre-orders will be filled by xmas. Call me an optimist. :)

Optimist! :D

So a cynical person could think that Toshiba management saw a bunch of XA1s in stock that would become near worthless anchors when the outstanding A2s are released and made up this A2 delay story to clear out the XA1s. In fact they may have a bunch of A2s ready to deliver and are delaying their release until nearly no XA1s are left, or so few that eating them won’t affect the bottom line.


I can't beleive that would be the case. The loss of sales due to not having the A2 out in time for most of the holiday shopping season, and hence the potential loss of new customers, will be far greater.
J

Robert,

Will you receive your full supply of HD-XA2s like the HD-A2s? We could expect that all pre- orders of the HD-XA2s will be filled also in late December?

Thanks for your effort.


sTu

Is the RCA one still widely available? Was it ever widely available?

Both circuitcity.com and walmart.com are selling them. I got mine from walmart.com back in June. Great box :)

I can't beleive that would be the case. The loss of sales due to not having the A2 out in time for most of the holiday shopping season, and hence the potential loss of new customers, will be far greater.
J

I definitely believe they rescheduled -- it's been announced already :) ! However, the reason is almost certainly a technical glitch of some sort -- the multifaceted cost of the launch delay would be too great for anything less.

I definitely believe they rescheduled -- it's been announced already :) ! However, the reason is almost certainly a technical glitch of some sort -- the multifaceted cost of the launch delay would be too great for anything less.
Yes, I know its been rescheduled. Its just one more disappointment from HD.
J

JOHNnDENVER,

What does it mean when you say ..."in thy massey" ? Where does that expression come from?

Good reason or bad, does it really matter? Toshiba screwed up on having the A2s ready for Christmas 2006.
Agreed. Its going to cost them.

I actually think all the pre-orders will be filled by xmas.
How is that going to help sell HD DVD to the J6Ps shopping at BB this holiday season?
J

Great box :)

Are you talking about the dvd player?

Yes, I know its been rescheduled. Its just one more disappointment from HD.
J

LOL...if this is another disappointment, I sure hope you're not planning on Blu-Ray. You'd be downright suicidal with all their player delays. ;)

Boy! This delay I have to say this does not lookandsoundsoperfect.

Anybody got their "Silver Lining" email from Robert since early this morning??? Still waiting....

Anybody got their "Silver Lining" email from Robert since early this morning??? Still waiting....

I got it yesterday, it should be on your way...

I got mine late last night. I pulled the trigger. I'm tired of waiting.

I got mine late last night. I pulled the trigger. I'm tired of waiting.

Same here, and to be honest I like more the way the AX1 looks.

Robert,
When can we expect the XA1s to ship out?

Anybody got their "Silver Lining" email from Robert since early this morning??? Still waiting....

No I did not. I hope to soon since I PM Robert. I just switched IPS yesterday and now have a different email address from the one I had when I preorder my A2 with VE. :mad:

BTW, here is a picture of the XA-2 UI.
1080p24 is not there yet.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061115/tos1_11.jpg

I can't beleive that would be the case. The loss of sales due to not having the A2 out in time for most of the holiday shopping season, and hence the potential loss of new customers, will be far greater.
J

I was just trying to make a Dilbert style joke.... didn't come accross well :o

BTW, here is a picture of the XA-2 UI.
1080p24 is not there yet.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061115/tos1_11.jpg

could be a cascading menu ;)

LOL...if this is another disappointment, I sure hope you're not planning on Blu-Ray. You'd be downright suicidal with all their player delays. ;)

I already have an HD DVD player. I'm not a mindless format chearleader. Its just kind of hard to sell J6P on the idea of HD if there aren't any HD DVD players to buy during the holiday season. The war of HD Vs. SD is Toshiba's to loose.
J

re: ^^

Could be a configuration setting elsewhere what elects "pass through original frame rate of source material to display" ... and while we're dreaming maybe there's a place to specify "my display can handle p24" (or p60 or ...).

But frankly, I doubt it exists in any current XA2 public relation event demo units. If it gets added at all, we wouldn't see the user interface for weeks.

Could be a configuration setting elsewhere what elects "pass through original frame rate of source material to display" ... and while we're dreaming maybe there's a place to specify "my display can handle p24" (or p60 or ...).I hope they do add 1080p24 support, but would prefer that they hide the option a little bit. Otherwise they might get lots of complaints as people play videos, have problems syncing to displays that won't really take it, and things like that. Because of the potential for complaints I think that Toshiba is more likely to leave it out if it is going to go somewhere that just average users will be likely to set it to 1080p24. If they hide it just a little bit (or have a big warning to go with it) then the people who really want it will be able to use it and should be more likely to understand the side effects (like what happens with PiP at 30i and material that isn't 24Hz source).

--Darin

I have yet to receive a "silver lining email". If they can't get an email out, how long is it going to take them to ship out the A-2's once they have them. :rolleyes:

I have yet to receive a "silver lining email". If they can't get an email out, how long is it going to take them to ship out the A-2's once they have them. :rolleyes:

I haven't received mine. However, it may be going in order of first prebuy customer to last, and based on availability of the "alternative". Based on posts by Chepekenobi and DarkKnight2K4, my guess is Robert is offering an "alternative" player to the A2 at a significant discount, so of course how many people he can offer it to is contingent on how many accepts (assuming he doesn't have enough products for 100% of the preorders).

Called VE and talked to Wendy at a little after 6PM. Gave her my order # and she couldn't explain why I hadn't got an email. Ten minutes later I got the offer. It sure is nice of VE to give us the option.


On a totally different topic :) What are major advantages of an XA1 over an A2? I had to buy a new receiver (Onkyo TXSR604) since my current receiver didn't have HDMI nor analog audio inputs so I couldn't take advantage of the new sounds. So since I have an HDMI receiver the analog audio is not an advantage for me. Other than availability, what are the major XA1 advantages?? Thx.

RS 232, coax and optical outputs, and quality of construction are all I can think of off the top of my head. There will probably never be a CE device built better than the HD-XA1 in our lifetime at anywhere near it's price point

I just ordered one because of the lower price. I can always sell and get the new one when it comes out.

^^ FWIW, my "silver lining" email arrived 5:20pm ET today. The sheer number of offers in it would probably set off some ISP's spam filter alarm bells, which may explain the delay.

Can't say I'd bite the bait on any of the offers, but I do respect and appreciate Robert's effort to give pre-order customers an incentive to stay customers of his & Toshiba, and think the main offer should be pretty darn good to some.

Now back to the main topic: The A2 -- I'm still hanging in there for it. I'll keep my eyes open for any really amazing Blu-Ray players, but I don't expect to change my view unless there's news of multi-format players in the near future or real evidence that Universal will start supporting BD. There are just too many Universal movies that I want to see, and it'd take a very long time for them to all show up on the UniveralHD channel. (Not to mention HD players being half the price of BD players).

Craig in NJ

PS -- FWIW, it may be heresay to say this in this forum, but I think whichever mfr is first to market with a multi-format player will be incredibly successful. Toshiba's championing HD DVD won't benefit Toshiba as much as it benefits the multi-player makers. I wonder if Toshiba will consider making one themselves so they can decimate the competition? The volumes they could sell would be so large that it would give all the studios a good incentive to use whichever format is best for their preferences (e.g., lowest cost, best quality, maximum extras)

Interesting article on Engadget with info on the XA2.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/15/toshibas-second-gen-hd-dvd-players-due-by-year-end-in-japan/

I haven't received mine. However, it may be going in order of first prebuy customer to last, and based on availability of the "alternative". Based on posts by Chepekenobi and DarkKnight2K4, my guess is Robert is offering an "alternative" player to the A2 at a significant discount, so of course how many people he can offer it to is contingent on how many accepts (assuming he doesn't have enough products for 100% of the preorders).

If you already have a preorder, Robert states in the email that it will be filled in this first allocation, no question.

things quiet over on the blu side tonight, Talk?

All your friends camping outside Best Buys?

Previous post - [Samsung and Philips] SAME PLAYER.NOT the same player. Different electronics. Different software. Confirmed by Sigma Keith.

By the end of Q1 we may have 6M PS3's in the market according to Sony's current projections.

Doesn't the Xbox out sell the PS3? What buyer makes the PS3 purchase on the basis of the BlueRay capability? I suspect its less than 1% as the player is a joke, just like trying to play DVDs on a PSII. You'd use it only if there is no alternative.

The PS3 may be an awesome game console.....

I already have an HD DVD player. I'm not a mindless format chearleader. Its just kind of hard to sell J6P on the idea of HD if there aren't any HD DVD players to buy during the holiday season. The war of HD Vs. SD is Toshiba's to loose.
J

There are a few A1's, some RCA rebadges, many XA1's and the X-Box add-on available. This whole "there aren't any HD-DVD players" is hilarious.

Sure, it would be better if more were available, but if J6P even knows what the heck an HD-DVD player is at this point, and wants an HD-DVD player badly enough, he's got options.

Xbox has passed 6.8 million now.

Interesting article on Engadget with info on the XA2.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/15/toshibas-second-gen-hd-dvd-players-due-by-year-end-in-japan/

how reliable is Engadget ? It says the XA2 uses Silicom Optix to deinterlace 1080i to 1080p. If it's true it's not that bad after all.

EDIT: okay I see they got it from impress watch. SO chip is doing the deinterlacing! wow this IS very gd news.

still no email for me..oh well. but from what I am reading it seems the deal is an XA1 instead of waiting for HDA2. Don't know what the price is that is being offered-but hopefully my patience will pay off.
thetman

There are a few A1's, some RCA rebadges, many XA1's and the X-Box add-on available. This whole "there aren't any HD-DVD players" is hilarious.

Sure, it would be better if more were available, but if J6P even knows what the heck an HD-DVD player is at this point, and wants an HD-DVD player badly enough, he's got options.
Not in my area. The last I saw, there was 1 A1, and 0 Xa1s amoung 3 BBs in my area. I haven't seen any of the RCAs, and as strange as it sounds, most people are NOT gamers. Sure, if I wanted to hunt them down, I could probably find some, but the point, which you seem to have missed, is that Toshiba needs to sell to new customers, your average J6P that will pop into BB for an hour to do his/her X-mas shopping, not a videophile who already knows all about HD DVD.
J

Finally got the VE email. For some reason it took a couple of tries for them. If you have not got it yet, I would call them today and get them to resend it to you. You will need your order number.

For me, since I am putting together my first HDTV video and audio system, I will wait for the A2 and then look for the best way for me within my budget to hook up a sound system as new equipment becomes available over the next year.

In the meantime, I'll set up what I have and be patient.

FWIW, the person who had told me of a possible delay had earlier told me that he saw an A2 and it was very fast and playback was smooth with no hdmi issues. The drives, error correction, hdmi implementation and software on the new player is all different. Even the internal CPU is different and more efficient. Because of the use of the interactivity features HD DVD players need to be pretty powerful. Without the interactivity we'd see HD DVD players for $299 and below.....just what I was told. So, we'll have to see how the BD players do once the Java BD is supported etc.


Did they mention how the A2 is at upscaling SD-DVDs?

I apologize for asking again, but could someone please summarize the differences with as much detail as possible regarding the differences between the HD-A2 and HD-XA2, especially since more is known about the XA2. Also, the upgrades/differences between the HD-A1 and HD-A2...

Thank-you,

Chris

The volumes they could sell would be so large ....

Toshiba is probaly already at max production with their existing HD-DVD lineup.


it would give all the studios a good incentive to use whichever format is best for their preferences (e.g., lowest cost, best quality, maximum extras)

HD-DVD is already the answer for "lowest cost" and "best quality". I cant imagine Toshiba dumping tons of R&D money into a product whose only benefit is "more extras" for the movie studio.

I apologize for asking again, but could someone please summarize the differences with as much detail as possible regarding the differences between the HD-A2 and HD-XA2, especially since more is known about the XA2. Also, the upgrades/differences between the HD-A1 and HD-A2...

Thank-you,

Chris

You've come in and said this on a few different threads.

What makes you feel that putting the same time and energy to keep up with developments that are important to you as others do isn't necessary? Or that others have time to spoon feed you this?

I apologize for asking again, but could someone please summarize the differences with as much detail as possible regarding the differences between the HD-A2 and HD-XA2, especially since more is known about the XA2. Also, the upgrades/differences between the HD-A1 and HD-A2...

Thank-you,

Chris

Let's try this one more time.

XA2 has 1080p60/HDMI 1.3 Deep color/ RS-232/Better Video DAC/5.1 analog output/backlit remote.




Here is the backplate of XA2

http://www.stor-age.com/resources/0C606E30-617D-49B2-8075-F88A977CAF3D/HDDVD-2G/hd-xa2rear-b.jpg

Backplate of A2

http://www.stor-age.com/resources/0C606E30-617D-49B2-8075-F88A977CAF3D/HDDVD-2G/hd-xf2rear-b.jpg


As for the difference between 1G and 2G. Shall I say it is huge?
First the hd dvd drive is from Toshiba for the 2G instead of the NEC in 1G.
Second they use a lower TDP/more efficient Intel CPU for the 2G judging from the heatsink.
Third 1G has two layer of PCB and A2 only has one layer.

Doesn't the Xbox out sell the PS3?The Xbox 360 sold about 350K units from launch until the end of the year. Sony says they'll have 1M PS3's out by the end of the year. Yes, the Xbox 360 has sold more units to date than the PS3, but that's because it's had a year head start. Most analysts predict the PS3 will eventually surpass the Xbox 360 in unit sales.
What buyer makes the PS3 purchase on the basis of the BlueRay capability? I suspect its less than 1% as the player is a joke, just like trying to play DVDs on a PSII. You'd use it only if there is no alternative.Have you read anything about the PS3? All reports are it is an excellent BD player which compares extremely well to standalone players.

There are a few A1's, some RCA rebadges, many XA1's and the X-Box add-on available. This whole "there aren't any HD-DVD players" is hilarious.According to Robert there are no more than 1,000 units left from the original 70K unit production (counting A1, XA1, and RCA). If true there will be essentially no retail presence for standalone players this season. Yes, someone who knows exactly what they want may be able to seek one out online, but the average consumer who goes to CC or BB will only see Blu-ray, and (if they step into the gaming section) the Xbox 360 add-on (which targets an entirely different audience).

All reports are it is an excellent BD player which compares extremely well to standalone players.

At the risk of blatant fanboyism, I'd like to observe that my NES system also compares favorably with current standalone BRD players :D


Sorry couldn't resist.

Have you read anything about the PS3? All reports are it is an excellent BD player which compares extremely well to standalone players.
Everyone please excuse me while I go off topic for a moment to meet with this tidbit.

Talksr8t - I think you'll find this technical analysis of the PS3 and Xbox 360 quite illuminating http://dpad.gotfrag.com/portal/story/35372/?cpage=1

Folks feel free to pass this link around the forum a bit - it's REALLY good.

According to Robert there are no more than 1,000 units left from the original 70K unit production (counting A1, XA1, and RCA). If true there will be essentially no retail presence for standalone players this season. Yes, someone who knows exactly what they want may be able to seek one out online, but the average consumer who goes to CC or BB will only see Blu-ray, and (if they step into the gaming section) the Xbox 360 add-on (which targets an entirely different audience).


WHERE IS THE HD DVD FAN BOY MOD TO BOOT TALKSTUPID.
GO PLAY WITH ALL THE OTHER SUCKERS WHO ARE BRAIN WASHED INTO BUYING FROM THE GREAT COMPANY WHO BROUGHT YOU CUTTING EDGE TECHNOLOGY LIKE BETA, MINI DISC, & MEMORY STICK. BUT I GUESS PEOPLE LIKE TALKSTUPID NEED A OVER PRICE BETA DISC PLAYER TO DRIVE THAT OLEVIA 32" P.O.S.

According to Robert there are no more than 1,000 units left from the original 70K unit production (counting A1, XA1, and RCA). If true there will be essentially no retail presence for standalone players this season. Yes, someone who knows exactly what they want may be able to seek one out online, but the average consumer who goes to CC or BB will only see Blu-ray, and (if they step into the gaming section) the Xbox 360 add-on (which targets an entirely different audience).

Wow, this makes 2 nights in a row that Talk came lurking over because all of his cronies are camping outside Best Buy, waiting to purchase the PS-3.

Go home, troll

The Xbox 360 sold about 350K units from launch until the end of the year. Sony says they'll have 1M PS3's out by the end of the year. Yes, the Xbox 360 has sold more units to date than the PS3, but that's because it's had a year head start. Most analysts predict the PS3 will eventually surpass the Xbox 360 in unit sales.
Have you read anything about the PS3? All reports are it is an excellent BD player which compares extremely well to standalone players.

Hmmm..."Sony says"..."Most analysts predict"...

keep drinking that kool-aid

Agreed! I think the Blue-ray fannies think that if they say Blu-ray is a winner enough times that it will magically happen. Sadly, Sony couldn't deliver a gang of hungry roaches to an open cookie jar. The PS3 launch has just been another debacle. Again, they still can't deliver the product in the numbers promised.
http://www.playfuls.com/news_05202_PlayStation_3_Doomed_Launch_in_the_US.html
But this is a thread about the gen2 HD DVD players. We all know Sony hasn't even released their gen1 stand alone player as of yet, so let's not mention that Sony is baloney company in here anymore. :p

The Xbox 360 sold about 350K units from launch until the end of the year. Sony says they'll have 1M PS3's out by the end of the year. Yes, the Xbox 360 has sold more units to date than the PS3, but that's because it's had a year head start. Most analysts predict the PS3 will eventually surpass the Xbox 360 in unit sales.
Have you read anything about the PS3? All reports are it is an excellent BD player which compares extremely well to standalone players.

hey, not to mention that 200+ games will "not" play on the new and shinny PS3 until firmware patches are released and downloaded..... but again, all those gamers will be busy buying and watching Blur Ray movies on their overwhelmingly old CRTs or 21" LCD computer monitors.... lol

I wonder what the odds are that the G2 players (HD-A2) will actually ship the week of December 11th? I preordered one Oct 4th, I'm hoping this delay is the final one and that the units actually ship that week, but at this point I'm sort of dubious.

I am selling my HD-A1 pretty soon regardless because I really would rather have the G2 players, even with a few weeks wait.

According to Robert there are no more than 1,000 units left from the original 70K unit production (counting A1, XA1, and RCA). If true there will be essentially no retail presence for standalone players this season. Yes, someone who knows exactly what they want may be able to seek one out online, but the average consumer who goes to CC or BB will only see Blu-ray, and (if they step into the gaming section) the Xbox 360 add-on (which targets an entirely different audience).

I thought the A2's were scheduled for the second or third week in December, now? Those two weeks aren't part of the season? Interesting.

And the XBox 360 is an entirely different audience, huh? I mean, seriously, who'd ever count on a gaming console to push sales of high def DVDs? I mean...come on, now...those can't be counted for retail presence... Oh, wait.... ;)

Sigh.... the 360 only sold nearly 7 million so far.... the PS2 which is still selling well - has sold over 33 million units, combine that with the PS1 sales and you have over 111 million.

Even if a smaller % of people who got the PS2 will get the PS3 - it will still sell way more than the 360 could ever hope to. And this is not fanboyism or favouritism, this is pure #'s and economics. The 360 has had its run, now its time to move over and let the big boys play.

Oh and if your saying that the PS3 cant play tons of games, those are older games, and it can be adressed with a firmware update. Try playing all your old Xbox games on a 360, its a bitch - I know. So what..... sorry to get off topic.

I eagerly await news of the A2 being released, I want to check it out for sure.... but it wont hit here until right before or now after Xmas right? Dissapointing, and probably not the best for Toshiba this year... even with the higher price of the Blu-Ray players and discs.

other than seeing the samsung player which has been lamenting on shelves, i see no other retail presence of bd players and it doesn't seem like that will change since i believe someone reported the sony bd player is delayed, AGAIN, and that is usually followed closely with pioneer delaying even thogh someone had already reported that there wouldn't be any pioneer players for sale this year.

the panasonic was discontinued on launch and i've never seen one on retail shelves.

maybe it isn't a bad thing for neither camp to make a showing this holiday season since it looks as if hdtv sales, particularly flat panels, will be THE HOT TICKET...

sorry for the ot post but these claims of no retail presence hurled at hd dvd while ignoring the same non-presence of bd, which by all rights is even more ridiculous since there are so many more ce companies, etc, are just ridiculous. i also find the claims/presumptions/insistence that every ps3 is a 'bd player' akin to claiming that as of 11/8/06 (360 add-on) there are now 10M hd dvd players...using the bd approach of untapped potential ;)

/rantoff

other than seeing the samsung player which has been lamenting on shelves, i see no other retail presence of bd players and it doesn't seem like that will change since i believe someone reported the sony bd player is delayed, AGAIN, and that is usually followed closely with pioneer delaying even thogh someone had already reported that there wouldn't be any pioneer players for sale this year.

the panasonic was discontinued on launch and i've never seen one on retail shelves.

maybe it isn't a bad thing for neither camp to make a showing this holiday season since it looks as if hdtv sales, particularly flat panels, will be THE HOT TICKET...

sorry for the ot post but these claims of no retail presence hurled at hd dvd while ignoring the same non-presence of bd, which by all rights is even more ridiculous since there are so many more ce companies, etc, are just ridiculous. i also find the claims/presumptions/insistence that every ps3 is a 'bd player' akin to claiming that as of 11/8/06 (360 add-on) there are now 10M hd dvd players...using the bd approach of untapped potential ;)

/rantoff

Good post. While its true, Blu-ray is also going to be a non-event this holiday season, the real competions is SD DVDs. This would have been a good time for HD DVD to get its foot in the door.
J

I've tried using search on this thread and haven't found what I'm looking for so my apology if my question has been covered....

Can anyone confirm if Toshiba has fixed the black levels on these new players, using HDMI-DVI? What about colorspace?

Robert can you address this?
TIA

ss9001

other than seeing the samsung player which has been lamenting on shelves, i see no other retail presence of bd players and it doesn't seem like that will change since i believe someone reported the sony bd player is delayed, AGAIN, and that is usually followed closely with pioneer delaying even thogh someone had already reported that there wouldn't be any pioneer players for sale this year.

the panasonic was discontinued on launch and i've never seen one on retail shelves.

maybe it isn't a bad thing for neither camp to make a showing this holiday season since it looks as if hdtv sales, particularly flat panels, will be THE HOT TICKET...

sorry for the ot post but these claims of no retail presence hurled at hd dvd while ignoring the same non-presence of bd, which by all rights is even more ridiculous since there are so many more ce companies, etc, are just ridiculous. i also find the claims/presumptions/insistence that every ps3 is a 'bd player' akin to claiming that as of 11/8/06 (360 add-on) there are now 10M hd dvd players...using the bd approach of untapped potential ;)

/rantoff

Agreed. The only BD units I've seen are the Sammys that have been collecting dust at my Best Buy. I haven't been able to locate a Panny anywhere, and the Pioneer and Sony's are a no-show for this season. The Wallyworlds I looked in didn't have the Philips, either. The $900 price tag on it in a WalMart, if it even carries it, certainly isn't going to push many off the shelves. Is this the "presence" that HD-DVD should be envious of?

I just wish the HD-A2 would come to be...

Is it true that to operate the 360 Add-On for HD DVD movie play back, you have to:
1. Have it physically connected to the X-BOX
2. Power up the X-Box
3. Navigate to an X-BOX menu with a game joystick to switch playback to the HD DVD add on.
4. Then you can use the supplied Add on remote to start playing the movie?

If so, that is a bit of a hassle and timely....OR can you simply hook up the HD DVD add on to the TV (minus the X-Box console all together) and go from there?

I've tried using search on this thread and haven't found what I'm looking for so my apology if my question has been covered....

Can anyone confirm if Toshiba has fixed the black levels on these new players, using HDMI-DVI? What about colorspace?

Robert can you address this?
TIA

ss9001
I don't think its been confirmed yet, at least that I'm aware of. Until the players actually come out, we may not know.
J

If so, that is a bit of a hassle and timely....OR can you simply hook up the HD DVD add on to the TV (minus the X-Box console all together) and go from there?

If you could just hook it up directly tv (with no console) then it would be an HD-DVD player, not an X-Box add-on.

I don't think its been confirmed yet, at least that I'm aware of. Until the players actually come out, we may not know.
J

Haven't really seen anything about it either. I upgraded my A1 to V2.0 and it really is a issue for me. I have a A2 on pre-order with Robert and would like to hear something about it but I don't think we will know till they are in our hands. I'm changing my A1 over to component this weekend so hopefully that will solve my problem for now.

Jim

Can anyone confirm if Toshiba has fixed the black levels on these new players, using HDMI-DVI? What about colorspace?
ss9001
Found this post...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8732289&&#post8732289

^^^ Well that would be really good news.

I just wish the HD-A2 would come to be...

Is it true that to operate the 360 Add-On for HD DVD movie play back, you have to:
1. Have it physically connected to the X-BOX
2. Power up the X-Box
3. Navigate to an X-BOX menu with a game joystick to switch playback to the HD DVD add on.
4. Then you can use the supplied Add on remote to start playing the movie?

If so, that is a bit of a hassle and timely....OR can you simply hook up the HD DVD add on to the TV (minus the X-Box console all together) and go from there?
tb - most of what you describe is called "initial setup" as you likely know ;)

After that, (1) power on (2) insert disc (3) Press play

Sorry if that sounds like too much work for you :p

^^^ Well that would be really good news.
Yeah, my TV only has DVI- so I was going to connect the A2 to the component inputs. If the crush issue over DVI has been addressed- then I'll go digital too :)

I just wish the HD-A2 would come to be...

Is it true that to operate the 360 Add-On for HD DVD movie play back, you have to:
1. Have it physically connected to the X-BOX
2. Power up the X-Box
3. Navigate to an X-BOX menu with a game joystick to switch playback to the HD DVD add on.
4. Then you can use the supplied Add on remote to start playing the movie?

If so, that is a bit of a hassle and timely....OR can you simply hook up the HD DVD add on to the TV (minus the X-Box console all together) and go from there?

1.) Yes, it too me 10 seconds. I had to take a break after that, it was hard work.
2.) The universal remote has a power on button which turns on the 360 and drive.
3.) The remote works great or just open up disc tray and put in the disc and it starts on it's own.
4.) Remote works everywhere.

1.) Yes, it too me 10 seconds. I had to take a break after that, it was hard work.
2.) The universal remote has a power on button which turns on the 360 and drive.
3.) The remote works great or just open up disc tray and put in the disc and it starts on it's own.
4.) Remote works everywhere.
Any picture quality comparisons from people who own both an A1, XA1, and a HD DVD addon for the 360. My store hasn't hooked one up for a test drive yet.

is anyone still waiting for their email? just curious-I did call VE store last night and theys aid they would email the offer-but nothing still. Robert I did PM you as well-but really feeling slighted now-maybe someone else could PM me and let me know-I assure you I did infact preorder in october, thanks
thetman

is anyone still waiting for their email? just curious-I did call VE store last night and theys aid they would email the offer-but nothing still. Robert I did PM you as well-but really feeling slighted now-maybe someone else could PM me and let me know-I assure you I did infact preorder in october, thanks :confused:
thetman

tb - most of what you describe is called "initial setup" as you likely know ;)

After that, (1) power on (2) insert disc (3) Press play

Sorry if that sounds like too much work for you :p


Do you even need to press 'play'? I thought I just closed the tray and it autoplayed.

tb - most of what you describe is called "initial setup" as you likely know ;)

After that, (1) power on (2) insert disc (3) Press play

Sorry if that sounds like too much work for you :p

#2 should be 'eject' :D


Do you even need to press 'play'? I thought I just closed the tray and it autoplayed.

...the panasonic was discontinued on launch and i've never seen one on retail shelves....Discontinued? Really? Can you elaborate at all?
I've seen them for sale on the shelves at my local Ultimate Electronics stores (last week).

Discontinued? Really? Can you elaborate at all?
I've seen them for sale on the shelves at my local Ultimate Electronics stores (last week).

Discontinued meaning it would be great for HD DVD if it were discontinued....:D

No, the Panasonic is alive and well despite the poster's exuberance..

Discontinued? Really? Can you elaborate at all?
I've seen them for sale on the shelves at my local Ultimate Electronics stores (last week).

Discontinued, NOT. Don't believe this piece of serious misinformation from the OP who should know better! :rolleyes:

Not only is it not discontinued, it is in stock at B&M Tweeter's, and available at Vanns, Crutchfield, and I own one! So does Jeff "thebland".

ss9001

Ok, back to the subject at hand....

I took the deal and got my player in 24 hours. Did my 2.0 update, and am in hog heaven ....

Ok, back to the subject at hand....

I took the deal and got my player in 24 hours. Did my 2.0 update, and am in hog heaven ....


Ditto!

the panasonic was discontinued on launch and i've never seen one on retail shelves.
Is this true? The Panasonic BD player is discontinued?

-Mark

Edit: I guess this isn't true. BenDover, where did you get this info from?

"BenDover, where did you get this info from? "

From his luv of HD-DVD, maybe? ;)

Seriously, it is not true. Now back to the topics of these players, I appreciate the input on the black crush issue. I would upgrade to the XA2 if it solved all the issues with HDMI-DVI and was more DVD player-like in its response. While I like my XA1 very much, using it continues to be somewhat of a chore.

I haven't kept up with the going prices on the 1st gen players, so what are the XA1's selling for now? That would give me an idea on what I might be able to salvage selling it used.

ss9001

Is this true? The Panasonic BD player is discontinued?

-Mark

Edit: I guess this isn't true. BenDover, where did you get this info from?

You guys should realize that it absolutely is possible that the unit was quickly discontinued from Panasonic even if the units are still available at retail.

They could have done a single production run of 5K or 10K players and then said "that's it" as they are already working on the next generation.

This is not uncommon AT ALL and the only way to know if the player is discontinued is not to try to buy one at retail but to call Panasonic and try to buy 100 from them.

Of course it's possible. CE components are discontinued on a regular basis to make way for new models. No one would be stupid enough to say otherwise.

But that is NOT what the OP implied with his statement. He implied that because HE had not seen any in any store that it was discontinued at launch which at face value is not true and un-informed. UNLESS he has some inside information, which he should be called upon to share, all he has provided is conjecture whose only purpose is to either dissuade someone from considering buying one or to boost his own favorite format, HD-DVD. The statement at face value is, to borrow thebland's phrase, "exuberance". Fanboyism is not a substitute for true.

BTW - I am a strong supporter of HD-DVD and hope it continues to do well; I bought both formats to enjoy releases from both camps, but my preference is for HD-DVD, for reasons that are my own.

I fully expect Panasonic, like all manufacturers, to obsolete their player at some point to release a 2nd gen one. Whether that occurs in 6 months, 12 months, 3 months, or even less is shear speculation. That should not be a deterrent from anyone who wants to enjoy Blu now to consider getting one. If Panasonic has plans to quickly launch a new player, then I say bring it on! I don't regret buying the Panny or the Tosh when I did. Is anyone here sorry they bought their Toshiba earlier this yr. since the 2nd gen ones are so close to release?

Personally, I think the OP's comments about BR and specific BR players have nothing to do with this thread and have no business being here at all. Let's get back OT.

ss9001

the panasonic was discontinued on launch



Total BS :D

Total BS :D

Succinctly put! :D

hey, not to mention that 200+ games will "not" play on the new and shinny PS3 until firmware patches are released and downloaded.....


200 out of over 8100 PS2 and PSX releases. And many of those SKU are counted more than once ("Greatest Hits" rereleases, etc). This not even close to being the same order of magnitude as the 360-> Xbox problems.


On topic, though, I am still more interested in the XA1 than the 2nd gen units, unless I see one that will look in my rack (at least half silver!).

Looks like there could be a price drop according to this article.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=194400463

Looks like there could be a price drop according to this article.

If you're going by the price quoted in the article ($425), don't get too excited. That looks to be the Japanese domestic pricing for the HD-XF2, likely converted from the original pricing in Yen. Pricing is almost always different based on market forces.

But we can hope...

shinksma