ok guys

Time to talk NEC XG fans mods

my setup is a naked NEC 1352 PJ in a hushbox, my mod requires the PJ to be naked

the stock fans in the NEC XG series are Panaflo and a few other off brands, they are very very whiney fans, that have very very poor CFM to db ratio

I also think a area of great importance is Drive board heatsinks, they are just too hot for my liking, and finally the small green neck card fan is noisy as heck and causes some people issues like noise and in the case of Mark W image movement

anyway, a great way to improve db levels and keep the same fans is to buy bigger fans, bigger fans = more CFM at less turns per minute, less speed = less db's, combine that with new technology that fan makers are using and you have no excuse for a fan that isn't 100% silent at 35CFM

here is my mod, this mod allows you to fool the NEC with fan signal in a manner other than a jerry rigging(such as grounding the signal which doesn't always work), more on this below ;)

the NEC XG has:

-1 X low power 80mm under the CRT lenses, this one is to be removed when inside a hushbox as it serves no purpose(relocating this fan will be vital to the mod, more later)
-2 X high power 80mm, one on each side of the chassis, these fans are to be replaced with Scythe Med. 100mm suckers that are 100% dead silent and improve the CFM specs by over 8 ;)
-1 X low power 80mm back in the card cage, this fan is also to be replaced with a scythe only a low power instead of med., 100% dead silent and improved CFM specs
-3 x high power 80mm, one above each CRT def coil, these fans are loud as heck and are the same model as the ones on each side of the case, these are to be replaced with Artic med power 92mm fans, they are much much more quiet and slightly improve the CFM specs, much much more quite, a big difference
-1 X med power 40mm fan on green neck card, this one is a joke, it is trying to do too much for the size and makes one heck of a noise doing so, it also slightly effects the image from what I have seen and it causes some people problems, remove the neck card and remove this fan all together
-1 x med power 60mm fan on the horz defl tunnel, this is the loudest fan in the NEC projectors by far, it whirls away making a huge noise, this one is to be replaced with a much quiter Silenx 60mm that has 4 more CFM per specs, which should cover the exaggerated specs that Silenx is said to have
-2 x med power 60mm fans in the power supply, these make the most of the noise that you hear in the NEC, they are small running fast and make the huge wind tunnel noise you hear when running the nec as they are close to lots of sources, take the fans out and connect them to a power supply and you will see just how loud they are :( horrible, these are to be replaced with the same Silenx 60mm fan in the horz def tunnel, these 2 fans will have a combined improved CFM spec of 8, so that will cover the overstated silenx specs

the NEC 1352 of mine has 11 fans and they are loud, the NEC is the loudest most annoying PJ I have ever owned by far, because that NEC used small fans running really fast, as opposed to Pj's like Barco which have huge fans that are like a mouse, I think a Barco 808 could be modded to be 100% silent without a hushbox :eek: anyway, the mods are pretty simple, the hardest part is removing all the NEC fans and the wiring, get all those suckers out and clip the wiring up close to the fans, the NEC fans with blue ground are low power ones, the red is always + on the NEC fans and the yellow is the signal wire which causes much grief for NEC fan modders, I have figured out a simple way around this

connect all the original NEC wiring to all your new fans, and you are ready to go to work, simply buy some weather stripping and duct tape, for the case side fans put 4 pieces of stripping one in each corner of the back side of the fan about the size of a dime, set it on the case where you want it to go and secure it airtight all around with some duct tape, I bought very thick weather stripping that raised the fan from the case which allowed you to create a seal around the fan and pull all the air thru the original fan hole and not lose any CFM's

the 3 fans above each CRT are even easier simply bend the original brackets down as far as they will go, leave some clearance between them and the yokes obviously, put the same weather stripping on there and set the fans on top of the brackets and simply secure the fans with a piece of duct tape, these fans need not be made airtight all around because that is not their purpose, they are simply blowing in the case downwards so having them just sitting in there would work, but go ahead and secure them.

the fans that go in the power supply and horz defl tunnel are even easier, they are just drop in replacements, wire up, but when you attach them, use rubber attachments that come with the slienx fans, DO NOT use the screws because they just make more noise, use the rubber attachments that come with the Silenx fans, fans in the pj shouldn't touch metal in anyway, but every fan in the NEC from the factory is touching the case metal and it adds alot to the noise

the 2 fans in the power supply will need a wire added to the end of the yellow wire from the wiring harness that connects inside the power supply, run the 2 wires out and down to the Horz def board where all the other fans connect, mark them as signal wires from the 2 power supply fans

finally we come to the good part, adding a few fans, one will be added on top of the case(when ceiling mounted) the other 2 will be also

one fan will go on top of the case exactly above the green neck card heatsink, this will be the fan that we removed from the lens section of the unit which isn't needed when hushboxed, there is a nice grill there waiting for us, simply add the small piece's of stripping to the fan back, lay on top of the neck card area and tape down, this fan will be running 12v and move plenty of air, we don't need all that, add a resistor inline that will slow down the fans alot to where they are silent but will move the small amount of needed air from the green heatsink on the neck card, this is replacing the minute job of the small 40mm green neck card fan

finally we are going to add 2 Silenx 92mm fans, low power there also, we don't need much as all we are doing here is improving cooling of the STK's, there are a section of holes above each twin set of drives that make a square above each heat sink(all 4) simply place your 92 mm fan over each set of drives, positioned exactly in the middle of them, raise it up alot from the case and create a tunnel from outside the holes to the fan with duct tape or etc., this will create a tunnel from the holes on the case to the fan and the fan will suck all the heat right out of there nicely, these fans can be as low powered as you want, run them where they are silent but pulling a decent amount of air, these are the only 2 fans that would be added that don't have a set place on the unit for power and etc., I haven't decided if I will connect them somewhere inside the unit or put them on a external power supply, they do not need the yellow signal wiere either because the chassis isn't expecting them,

speaking of the yellow wires: :)

you should have all your fans installed and connected up at the horz power board, you will then have a bunch of yellow wires dangling that are not connected to their fans but are of course going to the wiring harnesses, the only yellow wire connected will be the one going to the fan we moved from the lens area to above the green neck card, this is the only fan we kept, take the fan and snip the yellow wire close to the wiring harness near where it connects, take all your other yellow wires and cut them shorter and strip them, take all the exposed yellow wires you have now(including the cut fan signal that was connected) and tie them all together :) , what this is doing is sending the signal from that one original fan we kepy to every fan connector on the NEC which then makes it think all of them are connected and no errors occur on screen

hopefully my directions are good enough, please forgive any typing errors or spelling, I am typing as I think ;) :p

with a decent hushbox you will now have a 100% silent projector that matched and exceded the CFM specs and be even cooler running, slowing fans in the unit is not the answer, nor do I think any hushbox will totally block out the sound of the NEC XG :( , your hushbox can now be built simply to pull the hot air out fro mthe room and won't have to be so sound proof

enjoy, just my take and it works well ;)

-Gary

Too many words... not enough pictures! :P

digital camera **** the bed this evening, I had some good pix :mad:

-Gary

Yeah..PICS GARY!!

But now it's fixed you should run it for a while stock (or semi stock - adding drive fans is a good idea), make sure it's reliable, measure some temps.....then start modding.

I'm a bit confused though - is it running the stock airflow direction or reversed? Stock is in through drive heatsink and out through side fans.

Mine has the airflow reversed, with extraction though the drive heatsinks. I've also removed the grill on the bottom plate covering the neckboard holes as my extraction fan + baffling seals that area. The fan vents through a flyscreen grill - no bugs/spiders can get in, so I don't need the grill.

I haven't done anything more...2 little kids, I have no life.. :(

stock airflow Mark, sort of

hum that is something to think about, I was under the assumption that airflow was in thru the front power supply and around the lenses, and out the sides, with the pj naked(no case at all) and nothing around the lenses(foam) it would bound to be bringing air in that way more than the drives ?, which could mean they were not doing right, in that case, the fans pulling out on top of the drives should do a marvelous job or having them blow in could be even better, I see what you are saying because the 3 fans facing the def yokes are pulling in from the drive heatsinks, I was thinking of merely placing a very low CFM fan on top of the heatsinks to pull some heat off from above and not effect the airflow

I got a couple temp probes and I am gonna figure this sucker out tomorrow, I will know pretty quick which way is best

it might be best to reverse the fans on the side and above the def yokes and have the air moving out around the drives :) if I do that I need to foam in around the lenses

thanks for the ideas Mark

-Gary

If you add fans to suck air out of the neckboard holes/drive heatsink area, just be careful you don't starve/fight the CRT fans. (Def coil barely gets warm with 42khz scanrate though.)

I actually baffled my added extraction so that it only sucks out the neckboard holes.
The small holes along the drive heatsinks are blocked and the front drive hole (square ones) become intakes.

Air gets sucked along the drive heatsinks by the extraction fan, and the air entering the front of the drive heatsinks feeds the CRT fans as well as the drive heatsinks.

Measured temps in 22 deg C room are:

- C drive = 44 C
- Green neckboard = 42 C
- Def coil = ~30 C
- Deflection board tunnel = ~35 C

so your Def tunnel runs 95F ? is that with the probe inside the heatsink or inside that outer metal thin piece which surrounds the heatsink ? boy that is hot on that C Drive, I never probed them yet and would have never imagined it being that high :confused:
Thanks a bunch Mark, appeciate the info, off to bed then time to play when I awake :D

-Gary

Def tunnel runs around 35 degrees C, which is barely warm. Dunno what that is in illogical units, and I don't care ;)

And yes, C-drive heatsink runs in the mid 40s Celsius. Which still isn't that hot. Without my added extraction fans it was getting over 50 C. Around 52 C or so.
The probe is stuck between the heatsink extrusion and the mounting bracket right near the neckboards (so, on the inside).

It's 10pm here..must be 8 in the morning for you (??). You work nights or something?

I have a fan mod on my NEC PG 10 that Chuck made years back to this day my system and its fan work great! I don't hear the fans at all! I believe Chuck has since back off of his fan mod but I am swearing on it since I've had it now more than 5 years and my system is working excellent.

JohnBoy

Gary, the stock fan direction pulls air out the sides. This is designed for floor/table mounting. Air rises through the chassis and gets pulled out the sides.

When you ceiling mount, the natural convection is reversed. Now air naturally rises out the top (baseplate). Side fans pulling out is working against this.

Best plan for ceiling-mount XG cooling is to put a plenum on the baseplate and suck air out through that. That draws air through the whole chassis. Now the side fans are fighting the airflow, so you reverse the side fans so they blow air IN. That air will go through the chassis and get sucked out the baseplate.

Gary

Pictures!!!, I don't have such a good imagination gary

no I roam all hours Mark, I currently do all my school studies online which lets me play all hours :)

ok we have a bit of a situation here, all the drives but the F Drive are very cool, you can place your hand on them and they feel just a little warmer than the H def tunnel, but the F Drive is reading around that 52c or 128f area ? WTF!!! you can't put your finger on the heatsink without being burned, this is weird or does the F Drive run hotter ? or could there be something wrong in my system that will keep frying F Drives ? this is the same with the stock cooling and no mods, the F Drive is much hotter than the others

-Gary

Gary, the stock fan direction pulls air out the sides. This is designed for floor/table mounting. Air rises through the chassis and gets pulled out the sides.

When you ceiling mount, the natural convection is reversed. Now air naturally rises out the top (baseplate). Side fans pulling out is working against this.

Best plan for ceiling-mount XG cooling is to put a plenum on the baseplate and suck air out through that. That draws air through the whole chassis. Now the side fans are fighting the airflow, so you reverse the side fans so they blow air IN. That air will go through the chassis and get sucked out the baseplate.

Gary

gary as Mark says use aPlenum. Search for an old thread from me I posted pictures of such a setup I was using.

thanks for the tips guys, I would love to do a plenum but I can't with how the pj is currently mounted :(

I did some experimentation and I have decided that that 2 fans on top should be centered over the C and F Drives, temps on those are already going down after doing that, the A and V drives are not even warm at all, those 3 fans on the top, one above the green neck, one above the F Drive and one above the C Drive are pulling a massive amount of hot air out

the temps have stabilized at around 107 for the C Drive and 126 for the F Drive, Mark did you ever probe your F Drives ? that F Drive seems hot

I am getting close guys :D thanks for the help

-Gary

temps have stabilized at around 124 for the F Drive and 107 for the C Drive with my hushbox on, I am a happy camper and enjoyed 2 movies last night for the first time in 5 months, Enter the Dragon HD-DVD was breathtaking

-Gary

Gary, no I never probed the F drive - I assumed the C would be hotter, maybe incorrectly.

It's not easy for me to move the probe either..

Mark, the F Drive in my setup is much hotter than the C Drive, my C Drive is reading 107 and often less, the F Drive never hits below 120 and varies between 120 and 128, mostly staying around 124, it was running 134 without the fan pulling over the drive, I have set it up where it doesn't effect the intake like you pointed out Mark ;)

I have watched 5 movies in the last 24 hours including 2 HD-DVD's(Firewall and Enter the Dragon) with the DVDO VP50 of course doing it's magic, like I said in a previous post, my quest is over, I have no desire for a 9" CRT at this time, 1920x800p is perfection for me, period

all I know is that I won't be on the board much anymore :D

thanks Mark

-Gary

Gary,
If the temp is changing are you seeing any instability problems in focus or convergence? Doug

Doug, everything is perfect so far man, stability is perfect, the F Drive temp is stabilized around 124, when viewing movies it will move from 124 to 126, no more than that

the C Drive is around 107

again thanks for the board man

I would loveto here from someone what there f drive temps are? take a temp probe and lay it back in the heatsink from the bottom of the unit where the open square is that shows exposed heatsink

-Gary

I would love for someone to temp probe their F Drive

would it be safe to assume that temps go up the harder the pj is ran ? I was using 1920x1080ix60 before, no I am running 1920x800px60? is it safe to assume that the temps would rise ?

I would love to gather what the average temps are on the F Drive :)

I have been playing somemore lately and have some alarming numbers, with my PJ in the open and no hushbox and no added fans to the Drive's the F Drive hit 155F last night :eek:, this is stock in other words, nothing changed or etc. exactly how NEC designed it

with my hushbox still off and the PJ in the open still and with my added Drive Fans, the temp was 131F on the F Drive :), and finally with my hushbox on, and the added fans to the Drives, my F Drive temp was 134F

all my tests were with a black screen

Also I found how to remove the lines I have been having for months, the NEC must have not liked my DVDO VP50 horz timings or something, I took and made the horz raster size really wide on the NEC for my 1920x800p memory, then I dialed the VP50 horz front and back porches to around 188 or so(I think they were in the teens before), so then I have my porportioned image back, lines were 100% gone :), I also eliminated some raster ringing on one side :)

if I can figure out what is normal temps for the NEC Drive boards and get this settled correctly and properly, then I will close my hushbox for good ;)

thanks guys

-Gary

Gary,
Please verify stock as being closed up with the case on and 2-3" clearence around the projector. Doug

Doug yes gotacha man ;), I have 5 inches clearance above the pj

the F Drive runs 155 or so in stock config :( (in my setup) which could be normal, right now at this very moment it is at 127 with my config :)

-Gary

So your telling me the case is on the projector and no restrictions on side clearence or the top hood? Not just the bottom of the projector. Doug

Gary
I've been wanting to try quieting my 1352 and I think I want to try your mod. I've looked at the various fans manufacturers you recommend, but I don't build computers and don't know case fans or their specs so they don't neccesarily tell me what to buy.
Any chance you could post their item numbers so I'm not returning a bunch of stuff.

TIA

Kevin

Gary, I'll try and probe my F drive this week.

Mark

Gary, can you take a picture of where you have the probe for your F drive readings? I happen to be about to fit some probes to a PG+ so can do the F-Drive to compare to the XG.

Yes Doug that is correct :)

Dok I am laying the probe in the heatsink thru the open square that shows the heatsink on the bottom on the unit(top when ceiling mounted) where Mark says air comes in

thanks Mark, Dok, appreciate it ;)

-Gary

A picture would help a lot...

Gary, do you think SilenX worth the price according to its noise level?

SYC

SYC, they are the quitest fans I have ever heard and their CFM is almost what it is rated for, costly but well worth it, the 60mm suckers that go on the horz def tunnel and the power supply are the real values, they made a huge difference, massive sound reduction

also try out scythe 100mm, they are even quiter, they are 100% silent

thanks very much for those specs Doug, it sounds like that in my PJ setup with my mount and hushbox that I am cooling around 7 to 8 degrees lower than normal(your reported 135) with my extra fans, so I think I will rest easy now, my temps hover around 128 to 130 with my hushbox installed and my added fans going, thanks agian Doug

-Gary

Gary,
Just a minor correction. I had 132 after 40 minutes. Doug

thanks Doug, appreciate the info very much :)

-Gary

Gary I didn't get a chance to use my XG, but I found this from a mate, Chris S:

"I thought this would be something that may interest you.

I got my Lian -Li and have installed it into my HTPC bay, but I've extended the cable runs to the probes to 5mts leading into the hushbox.

The extra cable length made no difference to temp readings which I checked before hand.

I have one probe under the middle STK screw of the C-drive, another in the same place but on the F-drive and the third one on the green neck board heat sink.

These are the readings I get after 2 hours use with aggressive raster usage in a sealed hushbox.

C-Drive-43-44 degrees

F-Drive-43-44 degrees

Green - 42 degrees

I remember the base temps for the XG being around 50-55 degrees, so I'm pretty happy with the results.

Chris.."

Oh, I should add this was an XG-750, so it may be a little different, but the neck board and C drive temps are identical to mine.

Mark

Thanks Mark, appreciate the info, inside my hushbox with my added fans the F Drive stays around 128 average, but varies between 127 and 130

my PJ has been on for 4 days now(I watch so much that I leave it on for many days) and it is 100% stable

-Gary

Has anybody tried some of all of Gary's fan mods on their XG? I'm thinking of trying some of them to mellow out the noise on mine.

What 92mm Arctic fans did you use for under the CRT's? They have 2 different styles that are close in sound level and CFM. One has a kind of an open back that I think is for exhaust purposes only but a little better specs. And another type that looks like a normal case fan. I'd like to order these up and give it a try but would like someones guidance on which ones to get

Take a look at these fans at Newark : http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=31K9983&N=0. These are 80X25mm Panaflo's that have a locked rotor output so you won't lose your dead fan warning and should be much easier to mount than the 92mm Artic's also they have more airflow at a lower rpm than the stock 80X15mm fans. Stock; 31 cfm @ 3100rpm @34 dba @ 12V, FBA08A12M1BS Panaflo 32 cfm @ 2450 rpm @ 28 dba @12v. One thing you need to consider is the neck fans are running at 8 volts on a stock NEC, at this voltage the stock neck fans are just barely audible but the replacement is dead silent(approx 21 dba) . By far the biggest noisemakers are the case side fans, these are the same 80x15 high speed Panaflo's that are used on the CRT necks but they are running @ 10v. The replacements should work good here also. I have 5 temp probes in my ceiling mounted XG135LC and plan to post the results later this week as I am installing these tomorrow.

ScottH1, Thanks for the info. Please post your results so we can all benefit! The side fans are definitly nasty loud and easy to replace. Also the small 60mm ones should be easy. I'm noodling the idea of trying the silenx here. I'm concerned though. The 60mm ones in my projector aren't the same as what Gary found. The ones in mine are Sanyo and rated at 18CFM. The fastest Silenx barely makes that and that could be over rated also. It seems Gary was able to get by with the med speed ones with his projector though?.?

Great posts guys. I just got a XG-85 and removed one side fan last night to play with it on a variable power supply. I too found the blade design very whiny even slowing it down lower then the 10 volts it normally gets, it's still noisy, buzzy, whiny! yuk!
I modded my Sony 1252 and got it very quiet, no hush box needed but the NEC starts off more noisy and has more fans in more hard to reach spots compared to the 1252 and also seems to run hotter.
So it's a project, but thanks for the help on here now it will be less of a project.

From where can we download the XG service manuals? It seems they are not on Curt's site. I wouldn't want to attempt to disassemble my set without one.

Ok I've started digging into the fan project.... Anybody know the easiest way to get at the 3 fans above the CRT's (without pulling the tubes)? I thought I had a solid plan after seeing that picture of the assembly removed to mod the fans on that German website. After looking into it I don't see an easy way to get that assembly out without pulling the tubes.

I changed the 3 small 60mm fans tonight. Running the silenx compared to the stock ones on the bench it's huge difference, but overall once in the projector there's still a lot of work to be done.

Hopefully I'll have time to swap the side fans tomorrow. This will require a good amount of modifications. I'll either have to trim the plastic case to allow them to fit. Or cut modify the metal chassis. I'll probably just cut out the fan area in the plastic case. I've painted my case black so the fans should blend fairly well when it's all done.

Lastly, if I can figure out an easy way to get at the CRT fans I'll go after them. I think this will be necessary to realize a good overall sound reduction. I've run a test on a parts machine here with no fans but the 3 crt fans running. They still produce a good amount of sound just by themselves.

Once I get this all done I'll try to snap some pics to hopefully help some others. One thing for sure on the 60mm small fans. Get the high power ones if you go with silenx. The beginnig of this thread mentions the medium power ones. This is only subjective but even though they are rated essentially the same as the stock fans for CFM, on the bench placing my hand over the output, I'd say the stock fans have more CFM than the Silenx. It'll be interesting to see how this part pans out.

One other thing.. I've seen mentioned in multiple posts that there's a fan in the front of the case under the lense? I don't have or can't find this fan in either of my machines. Both are early XG 75 and 135 machines that are non LC. Was this fan added in the later machines or only in the LC machines? Or am I just blind?

Thanks again

Only LC have another fan between the lenses - you wouldn't miss it, it's right on top.

And you cannot get the Def coil fans without pulling the tubes.


Anyone taking pics of their mods? But a Hushbox is probably safer and more effective.

Mark,

Any suggestions on least amount of pain to pull tubes? Service manual wants you to pull the top hinged assembly then remove top brace across tubes then lift entire assembly out. Is there a way to pull them out the front so I wouldn't have to disconnect everything? I guess I don't mind pulling the tubes as long as I can figure out a way to do them with least amount of dissasembly. One thing is for certain that those fans need to be changed to realize a nice improment in sound level. The ones on mine are really loud.

Also what's chance of doing this while ceiling mounted? I know it's going to be light years more difficult but possible?

Ok I figured out how to get them out while on the ceiling. I didn't have to pull the tubes but I did have to do some carefully planned moves lowering the whole tube assembly a few inches.

Having a parts machine around really helps. I was able to test my whole plan and figured out exactly what needs to be removed and what doesn't..

I've got the 3 fans out now. Hopefully I'll be able to replace before tonight's over and see if my sound level has improved

well it's back together. much quieter now..... not silent but much better. no fan whine anymore just air movement.

one thing brings another though.. now I've got a "swim" in my picture on red and blue. blue swims fast (vertical wavyness in test pattern) and red swims slow. you have to look for it in a picture but it's obvious in a test pattern. I'm pretty certain its vibration induced from the crt fans. by cutting the power to the blue fan the blue stabled up. Well on to figuring out a solution to this one.

Getting the tube assembly back up into place while ceiling mounted was quite the job. NEVER AGAIN! That took all night to get eveything back correctly. I could probably do it faster now but it sucked.

Talking to Gary he said he was able to get at those fans with nothing but a small screwdriver and removing the powersupply. Didn't look feasable to me at the time so I lowered the tube assembly about 2 inches and then slid the fan bracket(lower tube mount) out..

Ah well the saga continues. on to fixing the swim.... and pray for reliability... oh still need to modify the side casing to allow for the thicker fans.

check the temps on all critical components. You have changed the airflow characteristics in the PJ by changing the fans. Some critical components may no longer get sufficient cooling.

I'm pretty certain its vibration induced from the crt fans. by cutting the power to the blue fan the blue stabled up. I'd guess it's more likely a magnetic effect than mechanical vibration. Those tubes are in there pretty firmly. But if your fan generates a rotating magnetic field, that could cause the picture to shimmy. I'd expect the red and blue to do it at the same speed, though...??

Gary, good thinking and probably correct. Didn't even think of that but I was pretty spent when I got to that point last night. I'll try to look into it some more this weekend. I think theres a little bit of room in there to try and bend the fan bracket down away from the tubes. Maybe a cm or 2 will get it done.

kschmit, There really shouldn't be too much changed... All I did was swap one for one on the fans with equal or slightly higher CFM. The only thing I have too much concern over is the 60mm fan on def tunnel and 2 of them in the powersupply. Even though I got the high power ones they are the only fans that I question their output compared to the original fans. I'll definitly keep a keen eye to the temps though while I shake out the rest of this project.

One of the Aussie guys stuck a bathroom/kitchen ceiling fan right above his XG - caused CHAOS.

The rotating magnetic field will screw everything. I have a green neckboard fan which does the same thing.

So it's probably the fans...ouch.

BUT, there is a possibility it's something else. See if raising and lowering contrast slowing makes the shimmer change/stop.

Mark

Any good ideas for solutions to the magnetic interference? I tried to bend them away a little bit best I could do without tearing it apart but no improvment. So I'm thinking most likely have to change fan types for this spot? Obviously can't shield a fan in any way.

Here's an interesting article starting on page 4 that gives some insight into the internal construction of a cooling fan. I think it's clear from this that there's not necessarily only a single design and principle of operation for fans, but that there's plenty of opportunity for stray magnetic fields to get out as the fan rotates. Maybe we need to know how the original ones work, and then find equivalents?

http://www.emcw.org/images/EMCW%20News.pdf

Also see

http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Electric_motor

Carp
Thanks for the links and trip down memory lane. Yeah that all brings back the days when I was getting my EE. Thankfully I've been doing mostly radio stuff since school and not much of any motor/electric machines work.

Well I had a chance to look at this again while I was fresh, well slept, and not after a long days work.

Long story short... I've got it resolved!

Looking at what I had, it was quite obvious why I was having wavyness issues. The way I had the fans mounted they were above the bracket closer to the tube necks. If you could look at it from the side you would see that the fan was actual behind the bell of the tube. I pulled it all apart again and moved the fans to the other side of the bracket. so they are now closer to the bottom of the projector and more important the entire fan is physically above the entire tube and not slightly behind it. The only trick of the deal was ensuring correct placment and also maintaing good clearance behind the powersupply where there are 2 other fans right there. That took 2 attempts to get right. Well it's all done and together. No wavy lines! Only thing left is to cut out the side case panels where the new fans will stick through then put it all back together.

Off to watch some tv and movies

Oh and although I've gotten really good and dropping the whole tube assembly - NO MORE LAST TIME!

Although the XG is my favorite pj, it's cooling is the least efficient of all that I have modified, the Marquee was well thought out and easy to mod, the Ampro's are easiest of all...but as you guys see the XG is a mess...when hanging on the ceiling, the three exterior fans that blow outward work against the laws of physics!!!
If your XG is on the ceiling, the laws of physics tell you that hot air raises, yet in the factory position, those fans are trying to pull air down away from all the heat sinks mounted at the top of the pj. (I've been through, and documented all these temp measurements all some length in here a year or two ago...all our stock readings look about the same)
First thing I did was turn all the exterior fans around, so they blow into the chassis, and create more air to flow up through the drive board heatsinks. (remember this is for XG's mounted on the ceiling)
However, for my setup, I don't need to change the fans because my H-box is somewhat more "enclosed" than the average...my lenses are sealed, and the cooling air must flow through a acoustically treat 3 ft tunnel, so very little sound gets out of the box.
I have been able to drop the temps on my crt amp/ drive boards an average of 25 degrees F with a single fan, mounted in my attic that pulls through all the chassis openings in the top of the pj...I simply used 1/2" styrofoam and built a seal around the top of the pj to the ceiling...the attic fan then pulls air through the whole top of the pj, and man does it cool!!!
To start the fan I simply installed a 12 vdc relay (controlling 120 to the fan) and ran the relay's control wire to the fan connector vacated by the fan I removed up on the lenses. (why is that fan up on the lenses?, it doesn't do a thing) it's a 15vdc output so you can add a resistor to drop the volt, but I have found that I don't need it, the relay has worked fine over the last year. (I also have an alarm light on the bottom of my H-box, so if the fan quites working I get a red light.
Anyway just another way to cool the XG, and this one keeps it from heating up your HT room.

Wow... and here I was thinking it a matter of simply replacing fans (like in a PC).... :eek:

I've read through much in this topic, but perhaps somebody can quickly sum things up... my projector (XG 110LC) just arrived so I would like to make any fan modifications before I attach it to the ceiling.

* Does the projector somehow sense the RPM of the fan, and act up when it's not 'default'?
* Can one basically use any kind of identical size, but lower dB spec, fan, or should specific things be kept in mind?
* Are specs labeled on the standard fans? So I know voltage.

I haven't dug into the pj that deep yet, so I haven't actually seen any fans yet... I'm not sure mine has the same (amount of) fans as the one Gary described?

Basically, should I really dare?

I'm quite well familiar with pc's, have poked about in an old BARCO and I know the basics of electronics and have some proper soldering/measuring equipment. Does that suffice? Combined with common sense...

Having been to the top of the mountain and back... I'd say leave well enough alone. It's quieter but definitly not silent. The risk to reward ratio on messing something up trying to get at some of the fans isn't there.

Regardless if you want it really quiet you have to use a hushbox anyway. That being the case I'd do some digging on what KennyG did a while back.

In my case the hushbox isn't practical (I've got low ceiling clearance) and a plenum with ducting not possible either. So I took the high road to bring something from aweful to tolerable. It's odd though that all the fans I put in there are pretty much silent on their own but all together still make some decent racket.

Honestly, if I didn't have a more or less complete backup machine here (with burnt tubes) I wouldn't have done this. Even though I supposedly have equivalent air flow long term reliability remains to be seen. And I'm going to have to butcher the side case to fit the new fans.

I think zman is right. You could replace all the fans (a HUGE job) with absolutely silent 0dB fans, and you would still get a significant amount of noise from the turbulence of the airflow. Since you won't find 0dB fans, you can add fan noise onto that. You can definitely reduce the noise, but you won't get rid of it. You really need a hushbox if at all possible.

Well, that's not exactly the answers I was hoping for, but I'll let you guys get away with it :D

No idea how to manufacture a hushbox... and if I did, I doubt it'd make the lady happy.... it'll be ceiling mounted by the way.

I guess I'll have to turn the amp up a couple of notches :p

Hushboxes are not rocket science. I barely know which end of a saw to hold and I built one for my XG. It wasn't pretty (by a LONG shot!!) but it did the job. You just need to build a box that encloses as much of the XG as possible, and probably line it with some sound-deadening material. (100% enclosure is ideal but then you need to work out a near-optical-quality window for the lenses to shiine through.) You may be able to make a very simple and light hushbox by gluing together some styrofoam panels. I think that's what KennyG did, and he said it worked very well.

With a hushbox it's crucial to pull the hot air out of the box. Since you're hanging the projector, you want to reverse the two side fans and put a plenum extraction system on the base of the XG. Run the exhaust duct to another room where the extraction fan is located, if at all possible. That, together with the hushbox, will do more to reduce your noise than just about any fan mod, I'd guess.

I barely know which end of a saw to hold

I hope for your sake you figured it out during the production process :D


Since you're hanging the projector, you want to reverse the two side fans and put a plenum extraction system on the base of the XG. Run the exhaust duct to another room where the extraction fan is located, if at all possible.

What is a plenum extraction system? Should the fan be placed somehow INSIDE the projector, attached to the bottom plate? Or is the effect enough when it's outside, as long as it sucks? Hard? Should extra openings be made in the bottom?

There's no 'other room' really.. unless I chop a hole into the ceiling and direct the air into the attic (which officially isn't part of our appartment, but I can get access to it). Would be possible, but end me with some serious repair when we move :)

I hope for your sake you figured it out during the production process :D I'm only missing a few fingers... :D

What is a plenum extraction system? Should the fan be placed somehow INSIDE the projector, attached to the bottom plate? Or is the effect enough when it's outside, as long as it sucks? Hard? Should extra openings be made in the bottom?See YONEXSP's plenum thread (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529823), with pictures, that I referenced in your original thread. The "plenum" is just a way to attach an exhaust duct to the bottom of the XG, and suck air out of all the holes in the baseplate. Doesn't have to be anything fancy; YONEXSP just taped an aluminum pan to the base of his XG and connected the duct to that. No, you don't need more holes, there are plenty there already. You just want to suck air through them. (With the pj on the ceiling, warm air rises, so pulling air out of the baseplate is working with the natural convection.)

You don't want the fan INSIDE the projector -- that would be adding MORE noise to your viewing area! The whole idea is to pull the heat OUT of the pj and preferably out of the room, using a fan in another location so you don't hear it. If you really can't locate a fan elsewhere, I suppose you could put one inside a mega-hushbox and just blow the hot air out of the hushbox into your room. But it would be harder to contain the noise then, unless you built some major baffles into the hushbox exhaust. You might not be much better off than if you forgot about the hushbox entirely and just listened to the noise.

(Be aware, though, that the XG generates about 800W of heat, and if you don't exhaust the hot air out of the room, it can get quite toasty on the ceiling. Before I built my exhaust system, I had a total of 8 people (roughly another 800W) in my ~4.5x5m HT. After about 90 minutes the room got so hot the XG overheated and shut down!)

I've just gotten my order of 3 60mm SilenX fans which I want to use to replace the existing (noisy!!) 60mm fans.

However the pj keeps nagging about the fan having stopped, then switching off. I'm aware of that yellow signal cable, and have read Gary's way around it. But I wonder what exactly is the reason that the signal works fine with the original fans, but not with my SilenX. They too have 3 wires, I've tried switching the 2 non-plus ones. In both cases the fan spins fine, but I get the error message.

I might add that I changed the resistor for the small 60mm fan which I've now been testing on (directly under the cover, cooling the heatsink there), so it's running at a somewhat lower voltage. Could the combination be the problem? Or do the SilenX fans somehow not give the same signal as the original one(s)?

I can surely fix it Gary's way, but would like to know how this works and why it won't accept the SilenX fan with 3 wires as is.

not the same signal....... the industry standard 3rd wire on the new fans doesn't put out the same stuff. It's pretty rare for the signal wire style that nec used

They are not the same signals. The stock fans use the rotor stop singal, which some fan producers provide as a optional choice. Like Panaflo, Delta, Sanyo Denki do this way. It is not so common for you to buy one with stop signal in the PC fan market. You have to order it from some industrial fan provider. But according to my previous experience of fan mod, the fans make almost the same noise if you want them to provide the same CFM.
The way to handle with the 60mm fan for the H-sink is to add another same stock fan to the other side of the H-sink, and solder the three wires to the same connector. This will make both fans run at slower speed, but provides the same cooling effect and fan stop warning.

SYC

I need for replacements:
2 100mm fans for the side of the chassis
1 80mm low power for the back of the card cage
3 92mm fans for the CRT def coils
1 60mm fans for the horiz defl tunnel
2 60mm fans for the power supply

Fans to add:
1 80mm low power fan for green neck card
2 92mm fans for the STKs

Is this correct? Also, which of these have to be thinner 15mm versions as opposed to 25mm?

Thanks

I need for replacements:
2 100mm fans for the side of the chassis
1 80mm low power for the back of the card cage
3 92mm fans for the CRT def coils
1 60mm fans for the horiz defl tunnel
2 60mm fans for the power supply

Fans to add:
1 80mm low power fan for green neck card
2 92mm fans for the STKs

Is this correct? Also, which of these have to be thinner 15mm versions as opposed to 25mm?

Thanks

Thanks, I have been meaning to find this thread.

Mike

guys bare with me here if you can, if I have time soon I will add some info :)

I have got school, beta testing and reviewing duties, add-on construction work to the home, work in my own HT and lots of stuff business related

hopefully I can get to it because I get a ****load of PM's on this and would like to add some info ;)

-Gary

guys bare with me here if you can, if I have time soon I will add some info :)

I have got school, beta testing and reviewing duties, add-on construction work to the home, work in my own HT and lots of stuff business related

hopefully I can get to it because I get a ****load of PM's on this and would like to add some info ;)

-Gary

Great!

Gary,

I understand you're busy, but can you answer the question I asked about the fans I need so I can go ahead and order them? It shouldn't take more than a few minutes. I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!


I need for replacements:
2 100mm fans for the side of the chassis
1 80mm low power for the back of the card cage
3 92mm fans for the CRT def coils
1 60mm fans for the horiz defl tunnel
2 60mm fans for the power supply

Fans to add:
1 80mm low power fan for green neck card
2 92mm fans for the STKs

Is this correct? Also, which of these have to be thinner 15mm versions as opposed to 25mm?

I would be very careful before doing any fan mods.

I modded mine and made it 10 deg C cooler.

Then I was having terrible trouble with the white balance taken 20-30 mins to come good. Swapped out all the boards..no change. Removed the cooling mods, back to normal.

So cooler is not always better.

I would be very careful before doing any fan mods.

I modded mine and made it 10 deg C cooler.

Then I was having terrible trouble with the white balance taken 20-30 mins to come good. Swapped out all the boards..no change. Removed the cooling mods, back to normal.

So cooler is not always better.

It proves that all pj's are designed to operate properly in a certain temp range internally. We just do not want our set to over heat.
I know my XG has a better PQ in one hour from firing it up.

Interesting Mark, but I can't take this noise! Sounds like a plane is flying over my head.