Dave,

So do you think that if the FCC had not gotten involved, this mess of Navigator would not be existing today? I am pointing out that the systems where TW is rolling out Navigator on only new (OCRAP) boxes - that was done because of the firm date that the FCC set. They (TW) clearly have not been ready for that. This is in contrast to Comcast deploying TiVo, where they have not been artificially forced into a date. So we are seeing their difficulties as endless delays in deployment - not in software that is not ready for customer use forced on their customers.Time Warner as I see it has to do one of two things:
1) Hire an independent contract firm who SPECIALIZES in programing guide software development to assist them with Navigator fixes and updates. Obviously, many of TWC's own programmers and software developers where this system has been deployed are clueless as to how to fix the bugs.Who would be better? TiVo? But we have seen that Comcast/TiVo also have problems - the difference being that Comcast has been more cautious about rolling out their software. The observation here should be is that software for large complex systems like cable, is not nearly as easy as some would think.

2) Switch Navigator victims back to their old Passport or Sara software until such a time it is proven reliable. Reliability should NOT be determined by overly happy little salespeople or the CSR reps answering the phone, but by the independent Navigator development team. STOP ALL Navigator downloads to legacy boxes. (For at least a year or more.) Pay Passport for the updates, so that SDV can run on the platforms. (Do this until such time Navigator is deemed above average in quality and performance by the independent programing team.) Than, role out an updated Navigator very, very, slowly with the programing team to assist in checking for any bugs. They stay on the job until Navigator is up to Passport or Sara in performance in both appearance and functionality. AND ROBUSTNESS (lets not forget that one). But otherwise, I do agree on this item - except CSRs have nothing to do with this (they only read the scripts that they are given). The REAL issue is management (at least the management who sold their bosses on this folly). MANAGEMENT here MUST BE PURGED!

Now, since the open cable ruling in July, just about every Time Warner market is using Navigator for their OCAP boxes.That is not correct. TW has contiued to use SARA (Version 1.90.xx.xx) on their SARA systems with the CableCARD (or OCAP) boxes. As far as I know, the ONLY deployment of Navigator on a SARA system has been reported by Indy29 on a Brighthouse system in Indiana.
TW SHOULD get the new version of Passport or at least use the SARA software that came with the new boxes.I'm not sure if you understand, a given cable company can not simply change from Passport to SARA. So on a Passport system they either have to get Passport to support the CableCards or move on to the OCAP software that they are developing. They should have done the former, they did the later. SARA is just not an option on a Passport system.

Since September, the 1st one died within a few days, the 2nd and 3rd rebooted daily, and this morning the 4th is in a continuous reboot cycle.

Is this a Navigator problem or am I just extremely unlucky getting HD boxes?

Jim

TWC, Cary, NC

Ben, keep in mind that TW was forced to do "something", on a schedule dictated by the FCC. Comcast has no arbitrary schedule. But the criticism of TW is what that "something" was. I tried to make that clear, and point out that there are no obvious and immediate solutions.

I don't see where they were forced to deploy Navigator. They CHOSE to release Navigator instead of contracting out to specialized software designers. The FCC may have forced their hand with OCAP, but didn't dictate they had to implement their own software.

It would e cheaper to add a new headend to passport systems to add sara than have the 75% of sara customers throw navigator at TWC. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I don't see where they were forced to deploy Navigator. They CHOSE to release Navigator instead of contracting out to specialized software designers. The FCC may have forced their hand with OCAP, but didn't dictate they had to implement their own software.Oh, ABSOLUTELY! But I was drawing a comparison between TWs situation (and how they botched it) and Comcast's. Further, I'm trying to illustrate how the development of software for cable systems is a lot tougher than folks often think.

But NO DOUBT that TW has really screwed this thing up!

I don't see where they were forced to deploy Navigator. They CHOSE to release Navigator instead of contracting out to specialized software designers. The FCC may have forced their hand with OCAP, but didn't dictate they had to implement their own software.

Agreed!

The only requirement was that the FCC mandated the cable card/OCAP updates for "new" boxes after July 1st. No one ever told TWC to create their own "in-house" guide.

And here's another question. Other companies like the old Adelphia (now TWC) and Charter had their own in-house guides and they actually WORKED! So if the competition can create a quality functioning in house program guide, why can't TWC?

Jack

TWC screws up more than Navigator. I for one have had no real problems with Navigator but I got rid of TWC regardless.

I canceled TWC for another reason. The SA8300HD boxes have ridiculously small hard drives (160GB) and adding an external drive is not officially supported (and presents its own set of problems). As a result many users offload content from the SA8300HD to a DVD recorder for later viewing. There is no way a 160GB drive can support an HD DVR.

As mentioned in my case I was able to store some content on my DVD recorder for future viewing. The original SA8300HD box running Passport allowed me to record full widescreen HD content at an SD resolution (480i) to a DVD recorder via component out/inputs. I used component connections because when using composite or svideo the SA8300HD would introduce artificial letterboxing thus distorting the picture on a wide screen TV. When setting the SA8300HD to 480i and using component connections to record to my DVD recorder the artificial letterboxing was not introduced. Everyone was happy in Who-ville.

I picked up a SA8300HDC not too long ago and as stated I had very few problems. Not the greatest but acceptable. The original Passport SA8300HD went back after using both the Passport and Navigator boxes for about a month. I wanted to test the Navigator box before turning in the Passport box. And I of course checked to make sure the Navigator box supported full widescreen at 480i via component out. No problems. It did. Time marches on. Get used to Navigator. Passport days are numbered.

Well TWC in all of their infinite wisdom pushed down an update to my Navigator box. My Navigator box did not show the recording log as others have posted. No big deal. But more importantly TWC (in my area at least) decided to introduce artificial letterboxing at 480i for all outputs - even component. So no more offloading content from the SA8300HDC to my DVD reorder for later viewing in full widescreen. What a joke. There was absolutely no reason to make this change.

So it was bye bye TWC. They lost a digital phone/Road Runner/HD cable customer.

Agreed!

The only requirement was that the FCC mandated the cable card/OCAP updates for "new" boxes after July 1st. No one ever told TWC to create their own "in-house" guide.

And here's another question. Other companies like the old Adelphia (now TWC) and Charter had their own in-house guides and they actually WORKED! So if the competition can create a quality functioning in house program guide, why can't TWC?

JackBecause, the guide is just one application: the most visible one. But when we are talking about Passport, or SARA we are really talking about a much broader application - one that interacts with the rest of the system (Passport is designed for Scientific Atlanta equipment on Motorola based systems). This "paring" of technologies has made things difficult when you try to introduce foreign (read TiVo) equipment. So what has (and is) needed is a more universal operating system - and that is OCAP. At least one version (it might be all of them, I just don't know) of Navigator is OCAP. When folks have problems with Navigator, it is unclear if their issue is really with Navigator or with the OCAP implemented on that cable system. Hence, we see some variation in problems across the country in the problems have with Navigator (even the same version number).

It might be interesting to note that the cable companies see a lot of potential in OCAP beyond our traditional video use. Interactive gaming, on-line stores, targeted advertising, etc. A lot of stuff that I personally have no interest in.

It might be interesting to note that the cable companies see a lot of potential in OCAP beyond our traditional video use. Interactive gaming, on-line stores, targeted advertising, etc. A lot of stuff that I personally have no interest in.

Priorities first,

Work on getting Navigator up to Passport/Sara standards in terms of performance and reliability. THAN, they can add the other bells and whistles. But not until that time.

Jack

TWC screws up more than Navigator. I for one have had no real problems with Navigator but I got rid of TWC regardless.

I canceled TWC for another reason. The SA8300HD boxes have ridiculously small hard drives (160GB) and adding an external drive is not officially supported (and presents its own set of problems). As a result many users offload content from the SA8300HD to a DVD recorder for later viewing. There is no way a 160GB drive can support an HD DVR.


I mentioned this problem before when they released the HDC models. This one is not TWC's fault, it is Scientific Atlanta's. Why on earth, with the low cost of hard drives now, would you make a replacement STB with more RAM and the SAME size hard drive! Especially on an HD STB!!! That unit should have at least a 500GB hard drive and be fully supported for adding an eSATA drive. Heck, even Western Digital makes a plug and play model that is 500GB designed specifically for the 8300HD(C). The Time Warner CSR's are clueless. When I called to complain about that and inquire about adding my own external drive they replied that the box must have a problem because it should hold more than 20 hours of HD. I referred them to Scientific Atlanta's own spec data sheet which backed up my facts. I have to agree that using a 160GB drive was foolish, especially because HD content is going to be ever increasing from this point on. But I digress, back to the topic at hand Crapigator!

Priorities first,

Work on getting Navigator up to Passport/Sara standards in terms of performance and reliability.
Jack

I can't speak about Passport, but I find SARA to be pretty horrible. I was really hoping Navigator might eventually be better than what I currently have. Maybe I should think about forking over a pile of cash to Tivo ...

I can't speak about Passport, but I find SARA to be pretty horrible. I was really hoping Navigator might eventually be better than what I currently have. Maybe I should think about forking over a pile of cash to Tivo ...

I beg to differ: While SARA might not have all the features that some folks may want, at least it IS reliable* and allows flawless operation of many of the hardware features of the SA8300 (such as external hard drive).

*Unless you have SARA 1.90.xx.xx with a CableCARD 8300 - then it is not very good (and SA does not seem to be in any hurry to fix it - or TW not in a hurry to push the fix).

I beg to differ: While SARA might not have all the features that some folks may want, at least it IS reliable* and allows flawless operation of many of the hardware features of the SA8300 (such as external hard drive).

*Unless you have SARA 1.90.xx.xx with a CableCARD 8300 - then it is not very good (and SA does not seem to be in any hurry to fix it - or TW not in a hurry to push the fix).

I agree. While the SARA software has a worthless search feature and a butt ugly GUI, it has been rock solid. In the years I have had it, I've missed a total of two recordings for no apparent reason. How many Navigator users can make that claim? I've said all along that SARA really only needs three things to be a top notch guide:

1) A cleaner GUI with a menu based system

2) A keyboard style search that searches the entire downloaded guide (not just the day you are on)

3) Customization options - IE: add/delete channels from the guide, remap channels, etc.

Do those three things and I'm happy. Sure, they could tweak options and such, but I favor reliability far more than bells and whistles.

TWC screws up more than Navigator. I for one have had no real problems with Navigator but I got rid of TWC regardless.

I canceled TWC for another reason. The SA8300HD boxes have ridiculously small hard drives (160GB) and adding an external drive is not officially supported (and presents its own set of problems). As a result many users offload content from the SA8300HD to a DVD recorder for later viewing. There is no way a 160GB drive can support an HD DVR.

As mentioned in my case I was able to store some content on my DVD recorder for future viewing. The original SA8300HD box running Passport allowed me to record full widescreen HD content at an SD resolution (480i) to a DVD recorder via component out/inputs. I used component connections because when using composite or svideo the SA8300HD would introduce artificial letterboxing thus distorting the picture on a wide screen TV. When setting the SA8300HD to 480i and using component connections to record to my DVD recorder the artificial letterboxing was not introduced. Everyone was happy in Who-ville.

I picked up a SA8300HDC not too long ago and as stated I had very few problems. Not the greatest but acceptable. The original Passport SA8300HD went back after using both the Passport and Navigator boxes for about a month. I wanted to test the Navigator box before turning in the Passport box. And I of course checked to make sure the Navigator box supported full widescreen at 480i via component out. No problems. It did. Time marches on. Get used to Navigator. Passport days are numbered.

Well TWC in all of their infinite wisdom pushed down an update to my Navigator box. My Navigator box did not show the recording log as others have posted. No big deal. But more importantly TWC (in my area at least) decided to introduce artificial letterboxing at 480i for all outputs - even component. So no more offloading content from the SA8300HDC to my DVD reorder for later viewing in full widescreen. What a joke. There was absolutely no reason to make this change.

So it was bye bye TWC. They lost a digital phone/Road Runner/HD cable customer.

Hi Nextoo,

Since you have had about "the best" experiences with Navigator compared to the rest of the forum, and since I am also in the Metro Milwaukee Wisconsin area, are there any 'Do's or Don'ts" Navigator tips that you can provide? I have an HD DVR but still have an SD set because the lack of HD offerings provided by TWC, does not justify the added expense of an HD set IMHO. I am HOPING that I get the type of Navigator experiences that you got. Was there any one thing that you noticed that was buggy over other things? I mean stuff like recordings not recording or random reboots? I want to be prepared. Thanks!

Jack

wow this is fun. I got my first one on Saturday took it home not only could i not get it to work but my internet and digtal phone did not work.. after 1 1/2 hours on my cell phone to timewarner the got all my local HD channels to come through but still no phone or internet. and none of the other channels would come through? they decided to send a tech out on sunday.
Sunday tech came out replaced my 8300hdc because it was bad. the reason the phone was out was because at the timewarner store the sent a signal to activate the box this put the box in front of the modem and thats why it did not work since my box was bad.

now my second box is not recording on two channels if i record one channel i cannot see any other channer there all blank. so they told me to replace the box today ..

I pray that the 3rd box works ...

Directv is starting to look good if it was only cheaper

I agree. While the SARA software has a worthless search feature and a butt ugly GUI, it has been rock solid. In the years I have had it, I've missed a total of two recordings for no apparent reason. How many Navigator users can make that claim? I've said all along that SARA really only needs three things to be a top notch guide:

1) A cleaner GUI with a menu based system

2) A keyboard style search that searches the entire downloaded guide (not just the day you are on)

3) Customization options - IE: add/delete channels from the guide, remap channels, etc.

Do those three things and I'm happy. Sure, they could tweak options and such, but I favor reliability far more than bells and whistles.

With the exception of the menu system Passport already has the first two. So that's another reason they should keep using it.

I'm starting to look at Tivo now. Nothing good is going to come from Navigator when it's fully deployed. TWC are so far from having a finished product it's not even funny. It's just pitiful.

With the exception of the menu system Passport already has the first two. So that's another reason they should keep using it.

I'm starting to look at Tivo now. Nothing good is going to come from Navigator when it's fully deployed. TWC are so far from having a finished product it's not even funny. It's just pitiful.

Yes, but Passport lacks a very crucial feature that SARA already has: The ability to handle SDV. Plus SARA has many features already that Passport lacks and Navigator has, like Caller ID on TV. I was merely pointing out that, at this time, SARA would be the easiest version to switch to if they added these minor tweaks.

the 3rd box would not activate but thankfully the 4th box did

I must be really unlucky or thoses boxes are nothing but trouble :(

Yes, but Passport lacks a very crucial feature that SARA already has: The ability to handle SDV. Plus SARA has many features already that Passport lacks and Navigator has, like Caller ID on TV. I was merely pointing out that, at this time, SARA would be the easiest version to switch to if they added these minor tweaks.

For Passport,

We got Caller ID on TV back around October. I was surprised because TWC is going to discontinue Passport for Navigator. We speculated that because it was talked about so much in the media that TWC decided to do the upgrade anyway.

Jack

I was merely pointing out that, at this time, SARA would be the easiest version to switch to if they added these minor tweaks.It is not easy to switch to SARA in a Passport system.

It is not easy to switch to SARA in a Passport system.

I gather that much, but it's obviously not easy switching to Navigator either. At least, a switch to SARA (once completed) would result in stable and reliable software in the field. It would also allow TWC to move forward with SDV, which is a must if they intend to compete with DirecTV for HD content.

Or continue, to use two systems and work with Aptiv to develop an SDV compatible version of Passport! However, I get the impression the whole Navigator situation is because Time Warner wants a single platform across all markets.

the 3rd box would not activate but thankfully the 4th box did

I must be really unlucky or thoses boxes are nothing but trouble :(

Gee, it took me 6 weeks to go through 4 boxes. I salute you!

I gather that much, but it's obviously not easy switching to Navigator either. At least, a switch to SARA (once completed) would result in stable and reliable software in the field. It would also allow TWC to move forward with SDV, which is a must if they intend to compete with DirecTV for HD content.Aptiv has SDV for Passport too.

Or continue, to use two systems and work with Aptiv to develop an SDV compatible version of Passport! However, I get the impression the whole Navigator situation is because Time Warner wants a single platform across all markets.Yes, but TW (as do most cable companies) view OCAP is the place that they want to be and provides that platform. Navigator is their OCAP user Interface. It's not clear if the problems that folks are seeing is due to Navigator or OCAP or, most likely, a combination of both!

II've said all along that SARA really only needs three things to be a top notch guide:


I have several more issues with it, but since this isn't a SARA forum, I'll not go into them here.

My point was that I hoped Navigator would be better than SARA (when I first heard about Navigator, I considered begging to be part of the trial; I figured even if it was buggy, it might still be better than SARA). Now I see everyone here saying they hope Navigator will eventually be as good as SARA. That's a pretty sad state of affairs, IMHO. "I hope this shiny, new program isn't any worse than my current program." What is this, Microsoft?

INow I see everyone here saying they hope Navigator will eventually be as good as SARA.From a stability standpoint - Yes, SARA is a good benchmark. From a features standpoint, no so much.

However, I get the impression the whole Navigator situation is because Time Warner wants a single platform across all markets.

it's because TWC want a single platform they don't have to pay for. So what will happen eventually is that TWC will have a terrible single platform across all markets. Even if they can get SDV to work with it and add features like "Start Over" for every market, what's the point if the core experience doesn't work?

I don't care if they have 1000 HD channels if the box craps out every time you try to tune in or record one, I'll be getting rid of it somehow. As I expect a lot of people will when they have to reboot every other day and constantly lose recordings.

it's because TWC want a single platform they don't have to pay for. So what will happen eventually is that TWC will have a terrible single platform across all markets. Even if they can get SDV to work with it and add features like "Start Over" for every market, what's the point if the core experience doesn't work?

I don't care if they have 1000 HD channels if the box craps out every time you try to tune in or record one, I'll be getting rid of it somehow. As I expect a lot of people will when they have to reboot every other day and constantly lose recordings.

I concur. I have already looked into DirecTV and we don't even have Navigator yet. In fact, if it wasn't so much more expensive than TWC, I probably would have switched already!

For Passport,

We got Caller ID on TV back around October. I was surprised because TWC is going to discontinue Passport for Navigator. We speculated that because it was talked about so much in the media that TWC decided to do the upgrade anyway.

Jack

A caller ID channel is in the guide on my Passport box(BD-V1000) and our "Navigator Information" channel disappeared sometime last week. Call it extremely wishful thinking, but maybe Time Warner will throw in the towel on Navigator.:)

Devils Advocate Time,

Let's say that Crapigator is deployed to Sara Markets and it is also a disaster, resulting in TWC losing cable TV subscribers by the thousands. Keep in mind that Sara represents about 70% of the TWC market in non-Passport areas. What do you honestly think they will do with Crapigator? Wouldn't they almost have to kill it and just pay Passport for the software updates to run SDV? What other choice do they have? The second largest cable company is going to look pretty sh!tty if they can not get their act together with this.

Write or keep writing your local TWC Presidents or managers of your divisions telling them that just about every one you know has had horrifying experiences with Navigator ranging from picture pixiation, sound drop-outs, poor reception, and missed recordings. Add how many boxes you have had since the change over. You can even compliment them for Road Runner and Digital Phone, just to give them some kind of positive input, which might elicit a favorable response. If thousands of people write, call, e-mail, and complain, to convince TWC to switch to upgraded Passport instead of Crapigator, maybe they will finally wake up and get the message.

Get updated Passport! Crapagator software needs to be put to rest.

Jack

Devils Advocate Time,

Let's say that Crapigator is deployed to Sara Markets and it is also a disaster, resulting in TWC losing cable TV subscribers by the thousands. Keep in mind that Sara represents about 70% of the TWC market in non-Passport areas. What do you honestly think they will do with Crapigator? Wouldn't they almost have to kill it and just pay Passport for the software updates to run SDV? What other choice do they have? The second largest cable company is going to look pretty sh!tty if they can not get their act together with this.

Write or keep writing your local TWC Presidents or managers of your divisions telling them that just about every one you know has had horrifying experiences with Navigator ranging from picture pixiation, sound drop-outs, poor reception, and missed recordings. Add how many boxes you have had since the change over. You can even compliment them for Road Runner and Digital Phone, just to give them some kind of positive input, which might elicit a favorable response. If thousands of people write, call, e-mail, and complain, to convince TWC to switch to upgraded Passport instead of Crapigator, maybe they will finally wake up and get the message.

Get updated Passport! Crapagator software needs to be put to rest.

Jack

I concur, but if they deploy to SARA markets and therefore lose thousands of subs, then the damage is already done. They would have to offer up some pretty sweet deals to get back those they lose to satcos/telcos. Especially if someone switched and got into a long term contract.

Personally, I don't see where this is saving them any money! Wasn't that the intention of going in house??? They have probably lost the cost of using third party software many times over by now.

Well guys, I am Crapigator less once again...my wife and I went into the TWC office on Sat. and they swapped my Crapigator HDC for a Passport HD, no questions asked...the guy at the other end of the counter behind the glass looked over at me and said "yeah, everybody hates that thing" So I assume, (unless they have their heads so far up their @$$ES) that TWC is well aware of all the complaints and problems with Crapigator, now they just need to do something about it. So for now, I'm back to a oldschool Passport customer...

Dave,

So do you think that if the FCC had not gotten involved, this mess of Navigator would not be existing today? There have been a lot of criticisms of government regulation of cable since the passage of the Cable 1992 Regulatory Act. Maybe it is time for deregulation.

The problem is that government deregulation still doesn't solve the Navigator problem, especially in the divisions that need the most help getting it to work. What options are left? Bureaucratic systems, especially in the areas of technology don't like to be embarrassed by having to admit their own mistakes. Time Warner as I see it has to do one of two things:

1) Hire an independent contract firm who SPECIALIZES in programing guide software development to assist them with Navigator fixes and updates. Obviously, many of TWC's own programmers and software developers where this system has been deployed are clueless as to how to fix the bugs.

2) Switch Navigator victims back to their old Passport or Sara software until such a time it is proven reliable. Reliability should NOT be determined by overly happy little salespeople or the CSR reps answering the phone, but by the independent Navigator development team. STOP ALL Navigator downloads to legacy boxes. (For at least a year or more.) Pay Passport for the updates, so that SDV can run on the platforms. (Do this until such time Navigator is deemed above average in quality and performance by the independent programing team.) Than, role out an updated Navigator very, very, slowly with the programing team to assist in checking for any bugs. They stay on the job until Navigator is up to Passport or Sara in performance in both appearance and functionality.

Jack

I don't see the slightest connection between the FCC and Craptigator. Seems the ONLY impactful FCC thing was the "no more boxes with integrated security." As for "government regulation" as far as I have experienced it, there effectively is NO regulation whatsoever. If there was SOME regulation, they would NOT be allowed to provide more services for less money to the "guy down the street (i.e. in the same city)".

As for Craptigator itself, I'm 100% with you there. We supposedly have a part of out government watching out for it's citizens, yet those agencies that grant the monopoly franchises are completely mum about all this. One sure as hell could say that TWC has the agency that is supposed to protect us 100% in their back pocket.

I am pointing out that the systems where TW is rolling out Navigator on only new (OCRAP) boxes - that was done because of the firm date that the FCC set.

AND ROBUSTNESS (lets not forget that one). But otherwise, I do agree on this item - except CSRs have nothing to do with this (they only read the scripts that they are given). The REAL issue is management (at least the management who sold their bosses on this folly). MANAGEMENT here MUST BE PURGED!

Dave, not sure which FCC mandate you refer to??

Indeed, it's their management and the various policy decisions they make. Big companies that make ALL their decisions 100% for their own good while 100% ignoring their customers someday may feel the heat... for leaving the customer out of the picture. My issue with them has turned me from one who actually defended them into an almost rabid dog. Today there are NO options for me, but someday I expect FIOS to be actually available (not to mention I'm convinced they are doing everything in their power to block FIOS from getting the TV franchise, it still hasn't happened in my market). When it comes, I will be tireless in trying to suggest/convince my homies to leave them by the wayside. For screwing us when they could get away with it.

Agreed!

The only requirement was that the FCC mandated the cable card/OCAP updates for "new" boxes after July 1st. No one ever told TWC to create their own "in-house" guide.

And here's another question. Other companies like the old Adelphia (now TWC) and Charter had their own in-house guides and they actually WORKED! So if the competition can create a quality functioning in house program guide, why can't TWC?

Jack

Unless I've grossly misunderstood, the 7/1/07 mandate had to do with no more STBs having integrated security. Meaning that there COULD be third parties selling such STBs on the open market that would be guaranteed to work with that cable system. The cable industry decided that a 'cable card" was going to be the answer.

OCRAP (IMO) is 100% an initiative by the cable guys that is 100% for them being able to "sell us more things." Still, I can't "object" to OCRAP at all, I have no issue with them expanding the business by offering new services... as long as I can NOT buy into it AND keep the services I'm used to from disappearing.

I don't see the slightest connection between the FCC and Craptigator. Seems the ONLY impactful FCC thing was the "no more boxes with integrated security." As for "government regulation" as far as I have experienced it, there effectively is NO regulation whatsoever. If there was SOME regulation, they would NOT be allowed to provide more services for less money to the "guy down the street (i.e. in the same city)".

As for Craptigator itself, I'm 100% with you there. We supposedly have a part of out government watching out for it's citizens, yet those agencies that grant the monopoly franchises are completely mum about all this. One sure as hell could say that TWC has the agency that is supposed to protect us 100% in their back pocket.

The problems with Crapigator could go even further than what TWC ever imagined. If the nationwide rollout goes through, and those SARA boxes become a part of this mess, I could see so many people up in arms over this that the Better Business Bureau could get involved against TWC because they (or some of their divisions are still claiming) that Crapigator is such a wonderful guide. Hey, put down the damn sales pitch sheet and start facing reality TWC! Your new program guide Crapigator sucks, because it is simply not reliable. It still has far too many problems for prime time deployment or any kind of download to the older boxes.

Upgrades are supposed to be an improvement over the product being replaced. Who can currently say that they like Crapigator better than Passport? Yes, some divisions have been "luckier" with fewer problems. But if I was a multi-billion dollar industry with a new product like this coming down the line, I would not want to base a new product such as Crapigator based on division "luck." If you have people who can't get out to replace box after box to find one that works, or the hundreds to thousands of service calls because of these boxes, head-end issues, signal issues, or preexisting cable system issues that may not be ready to handle SDV formats, you've got a serious problem.

It's similar to what that Lincoln Nebraska guy said at the hearing that the city council had because Crapigator was so bad. He said that TWC had a vision, but they got too far ahead of that vision without doing proper testing of the technology before the rollout. TWC has to come up with a productive solution to this issue. They are LOSING money and subscribers because of Crapigator's flaws. When their own line techs are calling the new boxes "OCRAP" instead of "OCAP" and in the case of the gentlemen that I spoke with, who suggested a year freeze on Crapigator to work out the bugs with the boxes and getting their foundation cable systems ready, you can tell that something HAS to be fixed before this guide drives away even more customers.

Jack

Hi Nextoo,

Since you have had about "the best" experiences with Navigator compared to the rest of the forum, and since I am also in the Metro Milwaukee Wisconsin area, are there any 'Do's or Don'ts" Navigator tips that you can provide? I have an HD DVR but still have an SD set because the lack of HD offerings provided by TWC, does not justify the added expense of an HD set IMHO. I am HOPING that I get the type of Navigator experiences that you got. Was there any one thing that you noticed that was buggy over other things? I mean stuff like recordings not recording or random reboots? I want to be prepared. Thanks!

Jack

Jack, take your favorite DVD and play it on your 4:3, then go to a neighbor that has a 16:9 HD st. BIG difference, even though increased resolution is NOT part of that picture. HUGE difference. Honestly, I view 16:9 equally important to the increased resolution of HD.

When I moved from 4:3 to 16:9, i used the vertical height and made sure the 16:0 was as close as possible to that height... which means that visually everything was the same size. That meant a 32" 4:3 to a 40" 16:9. By calculation, an image from a "widescreen DVD" would be 82% LARGER on the 16:9 than the 4:3.

From a stability standpoint - Yes, SARA is a good benchmark. From a features standpoint, no so much.

FWIW, I have found Passport to be very good in stability and slightly better than SARA on features. One issue is that some things Passport CAN do are never documented, there are a number of things it CAN do that one would NEVER learn about unless one browsed forums like at AVS.

it's because TWC want a single platform they don't have to pay for. So what will happen eventually is that TWC will have a terrible single platform across all markets. Even if they can get SDV to work with it and add features like "Start Over" for every market, what's the point if the core experience doesn't work?

I don't care if they have 1000 HD channels if the box craps out every time you try to tune in or record one, I'll be getting rid of it somehow. As I expect a lot of people will when they have to reboot every other day and constantly lose recordings.

Frankly, a single platform SHOULD be good for both the companies interests and the customer's interests. As with OCAP, I really have no issue per se with it either.

However, the fact is very clear that they have ALL the wrong people responsible for ANYTHING having to do with software. I find ZERO excuse for that.

I concur, but if they deploy to SARA markets and therefore lose thousands of subs, then the damage is already done. They would have to offer up some pretty sweet deals to get back those they lose to satcos/telcos. Especially if someone switched and got into a long term contract.

Personally, I don't see where this is saving them any money! Wasn't that the intention of going in house??? They have probably lost the cost of using third party software many times over by now.

I find that I have little actual ill will towards the plan, a single software platform, eliminating integrated security, OCAP, SDV etc. are all just fine... on paper. The issue is the execution, clearly they have fumbled that big time and show ZERO ZERO ZERO interest or action in correcting ANY of it.

However, there sure are decisions made that have nothing to do with the plan that will lose them subs, I certainly have made such feelings more than clear!

Well guys, I am Crapigator less once again...my wife and I went into the TWC office on Sat. and they swapped my Crapigator HDC for a Passport HD, no questions asked...the guy at the other end of the counter behind the glass looked over at me and said "yeah, everybody hates that thing" So I assume, (unless they have their heads so far up their @$$ES) that TWC is well aware of all the complaints and problems with Crapigator, now they just need to do something about it. So for now, I'm back to a oldschool Passport customer...

Good for you! Seems clear in the NYC market, this will never happen, nobody who has gotten a HDC/Craptigator unit has been able to get a Passport HD box.

Dave, not sure which FCC mandate you refer to??Apparently you haven't been following this particular discussion. You seem to understand some of it, in your post:
Unless I've grossly misunderstood, the 7/1/07 mandate had to do with no more STBs having integrated security.This forced a software change to work with the CableCARD. TW, chose to push ahead with Navigator, rather than pay Aptiv to do the needed updates.

This discussion started (if you had been following it) with a comment about Navigator vs the TiVo software being offered by Comcast. Comcast does not have any date certain for their move, TW had 7/1/07 as a date where there had to be a software change for the newly deployed boxes.

Unless I've grossly misunderstood, the 7/1/07 mandate had to do with no more STBs having integrated security. Meaning that there COULD be third parties selling such STBs on the open market that would be guaranteed to work with that cable system. The cable industry decided that a 'cable card" was going to be the answer.Where has the cable industry decided that a "cable card" was going to be the answer? Some time ago that WAS the approach. But today it has evolved into a band aid until DCAS comes along. Of course, the present approach for DCAS is depending on the implementation of OCAP.

Good for you! Seems clear in the NYC market, this will never happen, nobody who has gotten a HDC/Craptigator unit has been able to get a Passport HD box.Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it won't. What do you think that TW is doing with the 8300HD boxes that are being turned in for various reasons? At some point SOME of those older boxes are likely to surface. I have my hesitations about recommending those boxes, because I have little faith that TW is able to properly test and repair a box that was swapped because it gave problems. But folks do move, and turn their old boxes in, so there are likely some good non-CableCARD boxes in the mix.

Apparently you haven't been following this particular discussion. You seem to understand some of it, in your post:
This forced a software change to work with the CableCARD. TW, chose to push ahead with Navigator, rather than pay Aptiv to do the needed updates.

This discussion started (if you had been following it) with a comment about Navigator vs the TiVo software being offered by Comcast. Comcast does not have any date certain for their move, TW had 7/1/07 as a date where there had to be a software change for the newly deployed boxes.

Even though Navigator has been around for an unlucky few since before the 7/1/07 date, OCAP was what really got Navigator all this attention. Time Warner made a HUGE mistake using Navigator for OCAP and SDV, rather than paying for the Passport update and using the new SARA software on SARA systems.

I have looked at the Aptiv website and the pictures of the menus look the same, so I assume the UI on the newer version is very similar to the older versions. There's another big negative of Navigator, the new UI SUCKS! At least Comacast has more time to work on their TIVO software. IMO, I give Comcast's TIVO a better chance at becoming as good as or better than Passport than Navigator.

Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it won't. What do you think that TW is doing with the 8300HD boxes that are being turned in for various reasons? At some point SOME of those older boxes are likely to surface. I have my hesitations about recommending those boxes, because I have little faith that TW is able to properly test and repair a box that was swapped because it gave problems. But folks do move, and turn their old boxes in, so there are likely some good non-CableCARD boxes in the mix.

The majority of non-OCAP boxes are SA8000HDs. I had two before the OCAP box and the OCAP box is great compared to the SA8000HD. The 8300HD non-OCAP box came out later than the 8000HD so I would guess there are less of them around. I don't think my area had many 8300s, considering even after the OCAP date 7/1/07, I still got an 8000HD in August.

Time Warner made a HUGE mistake using Navigator for OCAP and SDV, rather than paying for the Passport update and using the new SARA software on SARA systems.Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but this reads to me that TW is NOT using the new SARA software on SARA systems. The fact is, that TW IS using the new SARA (1.90.xx.xx) for CableCARD (aka OCRAP) boxes on SARA systems. The only case that I have heard of where anyone went to Navigator in a SARA system is Brighthouse in Ohio. Upstate NY is all SARA and 8300HDC boxes are still on SARA!

Now, many of us in Upstate NY live in fear that they will start to push Navigator here - but it hasn't happened yet.

The majority of non-OCAP boxes are SA8000HDs. I had two before the OCAP box and the OCAP box is great compared to the SA8000HD. The 8300HD non-OCAP box came out later than the 8000HD so I would guess there are less of them around. I don't think my area had many 8300s, considering even after the OCAP date 7/1/07, I still got an 8000HD in August.I really doubt that any cable system has more SA8000HDs than SA8300HDs. I've had my SA8300HD for 3 years, and I suspect that no cable system has acquired any SA8000HDs since the SA8300HD came out. Considering that the growth of HD has mostly occurred in the last 3 years, it is hard to envision how a cable system could have more SA8000HDs than SA8300HDs.

Now, SA8300HDCs vs SA8300HDs are a different matter. As the CableCARD (or OCAP) boxes only have been distributed since 7/1/07.

I do know that able companies tend to have a lot of 8000's laying around as many of their customers wanted the 8300, producing inventories of used 8000s.

Just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean that it won't. What do you think that TW is doing with the 8300HD boxes that are being turned in for various reasons? At some point SOME of those older boxes are likely to surface. I have my hesitations about recommending those boxes, because I have little faith that TW is able to properly test and repair a box that was swapped because it gave problems. But folks do move, and turn their old boxes in, so there are likely some good non-CableCARD boxes in the mix.

Based on the problems that people are having with Crapigator on the OCAP boxes, I would almost venture a guess that a used SA Passport 8300HD could be more stable than a new Navigator SA 8300 HDC. That should give the idea of how bad the Crapigator software is in most markets.

But if you are in a TWC division where Navigator hasn't become Crapigator for whatever reason and you are having problems with your SA 8300 HD, maybe the new SA 8300 C box COULD be better. It all depends on how well your division deals with the Navigator upgrade. I feel a little better being from Wisconsin based on Nextoo's reports that Navigator is working better here. But if I was in a Nebraska, California, Ohio, North Carolina, or a New York area being changed over where we have seen Navigator acting like Crapigator, I would try to hold on to my used Passport box for as long as I could!

Jack

SARA or PASSPORT are both light years ahead of NAVIGATOR at this point.Until TWC can give us a platform as stable as SARA or as feature rich as PASSPORT why change.NAVIGATOR has a pooer search engine than Passport and way fewer recording options as the SARA guide.If we could have passport search engine and sara recording options WHAT A GUIDE IT WOULD BE.However Navigator seems to be in our sad future.When it hits the 70% of TWC custmer base that has SARA I perdict a customer revolt.The Navigator version for sara user better be right or lord help TWC. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I noticed last night when my box was recording two shows and i was watching the recorded show that I could not get the option to play from the begining from either of the two shows i was recording ? i wanted to time shift and watch one of the shows that was being recorded. the only way i could do it was when I stopped watching the the recorded shows? am i doing something wrong or is this the way it should be ?

Apparently you haven't been following this particular discussion. You seem to understand some of it, in your post:
This forced a software change to work with the CableCARD. TW, chose to push ahead with Navigator, rather than pay Aptiv to do the needed updates.

This discussion started (if you had been following it) with a comment about Navigator vs the TiVo software being offered by Comcast. Comcast does not have any date certain for their move, TW had 7/1/07 as a date where there had to be a software change for the newly deployed boxes.

Instead of simply answering my question, you stoop to making uncalled for, snide and sarcastic remarks.

I noticed last night when my box was recording two shows and i was watching the recorded show that I could not get the option to play from the begining from either of the two shows i was recording ? i wanted to time shift and watch one of the shows that was being recorded. the only way i could do it was when I stopped watching the the recorded shows? am i doing something wrong or is this the way it should be ?

That seems to be a known bug (i.e. it happens to me as well). Basically, the way I understand it is that Navigator has two modes - watching live TV and watching previously recorded show. If you are watching previously recorded show, you can not start watching currently recording show from the beginning (no Play menu item in the List). Why would that be the case, beats me (other than the ususal answer - general incompetence of the TW developers). However, if you switch to watching live TV (whether it is an unrelated channel or the recording chanel) the menu item magically re-appears, and you have your wish. This is generally not that much hassle if only one show is recording, because 1. if you are done watching a pre-recorded show and you delete it, you are automatically dumped to live TV anyway, and that's usually some unrelated channel (hate that, just a message screen in that case is a much better idea) 2. otherwise, you can always switch to live TV using some channel you don't care about, than go back to the List (weird and clunky, but it works every time). However, if you are recording two shows at the same time, switching to live TV involves much work to avoid seeing/hearing spoilers. Even worse, it also, for me at least, terminates recording on the channel I switched to watch live more times than not. Also, if I got lucky and it did not terminate the recording, and if I happen to hit pause (as I did a few times trying to quickly avoid spoilers), it will most definitely terminate the recording. That's a much bigger hassle. The way I deal with it (the blasted thing trained me to behave weird in order to avoid its bugs) is to start watching one show from the beginning before the other one kicks in. Of course, this is possible only because, in my case, the show I want to watch while it is recording (3 hour game) is always a lot longer than, and it has started considerably before, the other one. Lame, but that's Navigator for you. OK, extremely lame, but I can work around it, and almost without cursing out loud. I'm used to the user-hostile aspects of it, as long as unreliable parts are in check, I'm OK. And to be fair, the "channel not available" bug has not shown since I replaced the box (more than 2 months), and the thing never reboots on its own - when I checked the diagnostics yesterday, last reboot time was over a month ago, and I vaguely remember doing rebooting it on purpose. It does, on ocassion, skip a half-second or so of the sound (the picture does not skip, though). Based on other people's comments, I guess I can count myself lucky as far as Navigator performance is concerned.

Spoke to a family friend tonight from Wisconsin with Navigator,

Although he hasn't had the bug issues that people have talked about in the forum, he does believe that the guide is ugly, intrusive, and overwhelming. (and he's a computer geek.) What he hates is:

When selecting the DVR list, you get options to sort by date, time, and title. (I think that's what he said.) I do know that there are three options and he thought that was so stupid. It's not a simple List that shows your programs like Passport does.

He HATES the keyboard search because the option to search by Keyword is gone. (While I have rarely used Keyword Search, this a huge step back from what Passport had.) He doesn't like to have to punch in letters to get to a show. Working with the Browse by Theme in Passport, he finds to be so much easier.

On playback of recordings, he said that meter doesn't tell where you are in a show!!! He thought this was absolutely ridiculous!

The biggest problem is that you have to do 3-4 steps to get to the things you could get to in Passport in just one or two steps. I asked if he had trouble with series recordings or rebooting. He said, not really. But he did say that he leaves his DVR on at night and what it has been doing at least once a week, sometimes more, is that the DVR box will be off at night. He thinks that some shows are not recording when the box is turned off. I said that I never had these problems with Passport.

He is going to try to exchange his box for a used Passport (non C) model. He said, "I can live with Navigator, but it's a huge step backwards." There wasn't really ANYTHING that he liked about the upgrade at all!

Jack

PS. He also believes that TWC will most likely do a "box swap" for the legacy boxes such as the old Pace and Pioneer units if and when Navigator becomes mainstream. BTW, what is the current RAM for the non-DVR SA boxes running Navigator?

Sounds like a lot of bad information. Which doesn't surprise me. At all.

There are two sorting options when going into the title list. When you press the title button you see what Passport offers. Titles by date. But you also have the option to sort alphabetically by title. This is a plus not a minus. Why anybody would not consider this an improvement is a mystery. One thing you cannot do in Navigator is reorder titles.

The keyboard search by keyword has not been eliminated. In Navigator you go into the keyboard search and enter the keyword. One thing it doesn't do is eliminate letters as you drill down but the keyword search is still there - no problems.

There are things that Navigator does better than Passport and there are things that Passport does better than Navigator. It's called change.

This is one of the oddest threads I have ever posted in. It seems that the majority of the Navigator detractors don't even use the product. There is some sort of weird motivation to continually point out problems even though they are non affecting to the poster. Strange.

I think if not for the non users continually posting about the horror of Navigator this thread would die on the vine. True there are real world horror stories being posted by actual users but they tend to pop in here and then become silent. Either after complaining to TWC their problems improve or they move on to another service provider. Either way they tend to fade away like old soldiers. And the non users attempt to keep the thread going by always bashing a product they don't even use.

I posted a while back that I had no real problems. There have been very few complaints from my area - SE WI. There still seems to be some issues from the North Carolina area and Ohio. But it does seem to be that the Ohio area has seen at least some improvement. When was the last time somebody posted from Lincoln?

Navigator has improved significantly. And it will continue to evolve. For that matter all of the problems that have been posted (and appear to be diminishing) may not even be exclusive to Navigator. As has been posted in the past there are a lot of moving parts. OCAP and cable cards come to mind.

When the discussion begins to be reduced to colors or how the guide looks I believe the implementation is moving along just fine.

Sounds like a lot of bad information. Which doesn't surprise me. At all.

There are two sorting options when going into the title list. When you press the title button you see what Passport offers. Titles by date. But you also have the option to sort alphabetically by title. This is a plus not a minus. Why anybody would not consider this an improvement is a mystery. One thing you cannot do in Navigator is reorder titles.

The keyboard search by keyword has not been eliminated. In Navigator you go into the keyboard search and enter the keyword. One thing it doesn't do is eliminate letters as you drill down but the keyword search is still there - no problems.

There are things that Navigator does better than Passport and there are things that Passport does better than Navigator. It's called change.

This is one of the oddest threads I have ever posted in. It seems that the majority of the Navigator detractors don't even use the product. There is some sort of weird motivation to continually point out problems even though they are non affecting to the poster. Strange.

I think if not for the non users continually posting about the horror of Navigator this thread would die on the vine. True there are real world horror stories being posted by actual users but they tend to pop in here and then become silent. Either after complaining to TWC their problems improve or they move on to another service provider. Either way they tend to fade away like old soldiers. And the non users attempt to keep the thread going by always bashing a product they don't even use.

I posted a while back that I had no real problems. There have been very few complaints from my area - SE WI. There still seems to be some issues from the North Carolina area and Ohio. But it does seem to be that the Ohio area has seen at least some improvement. When was the last time somebody posted from Lincoln?

Navigator has improved significantly. And it will continue to evolve. For that matter all of the problems that have been posted (and appear to be diminishing) may not even be exclusive to Navigator. As has been posted in the past there are a lot of moving parts. OCAP and cable cards come to mind.

When the discussion begins to be reduced to colors or how the guide looks I believe the implementation is moving along just fine.

I'd have to agree with the general message here - while Navigator is very clunky and leaves a lot to be desired, it is (at least in my case) far from the unmitigated disaster it is frequently portrayed to be. While I never used SARA or Passport, I used ReplayTV daily for almost 10 years, and did a fair amount of research on Tivo, so I have a pretty good idea of what a DVR should be, and while Navigator is not even close to being as good as it should be, it is not unusable at all.

I think if not for the non users continually posting about the horror of Navigator this thread would die on the vine. True there are real world horror stories being posted by actual users but they tend to pop in here and then become silent. Either after complaining to TWC their problems improve or they move on to another service provider. Either way they tend to fade away like old soldiers. And the non users attempt to keep the thread going by always bashing a product they don't even use.I don't think it would die on the vine, but it would at least stick to the real issues.

Here's my take: I don't have a problem with Navigator's basic functionality. The various screens are reasonably useful, responsive, and easy to navigate. They have a few rough edges that, as a programmer, would personally nag at me until I fixed them, but certainly no deal breakers.

Having not used them, I cannot compare to Passport or Sara, but I've used ReplayTV since it was first released. ReplayTV has some nice features that I miss with Navigator but Navigator also introduces new features that are very much to my liking. The thing is, this isn't a new concept. There are many DVR devices that have been around for a long time from which TW could pattern their feature mix and interface techniques. Seems like TW could do a better job of taking the best of these seasoned devices and create a killer interface.

My big problem with Navigator is that I can't trust it. As I have previously reported here, I lost several recordings the first week or so for no apparent reason. We still don't know what "channel not available" means, but it happens without any consistent pattern. I then went 2 or 3 weeks without any problems but, because of my early problems, I continually felt the need to monitor its functioning. Then, out of the blue, it dropped another recording that, because I was watching for it, I managed to record manually.

This, IMHO, needs to be TW's number one priority. A DVR that you can't rely on has pretty questionable value. I know for most of you the alternatives are drastic: switch to TIVO, change carriers, do without, etc. In my case, I've still got the ReplayTV to fall back on. If TW doesn't fix the recording reliability soon, I'm going to go back to my old DVR, save the money and aggravation, and wait until they get their problems solved. And I trust that they will fix this problem one way or the other. After all, if they don't, the market will completely reject the device and/or TW will continue to absorb the cost of sending service people on wild goose chases that are really SW problems.

SARA 1.89.17.1 in Greensboro NC.Time Warner on their website announced that on Jan.30 2008 the answers on demand channel.The channel that carries instructions for Sara dvr users.It will be removed from their channels.Do not know what this signals,but have a feeling Navigator is on it's way to the triad.

... There are things that Navigator does better than Passport and there are things that Passport does better than Navigator. It's called change. ... This is one of the oddest threads I have ever posted in. It seems that the majority of the Navigator detractors don't even use the product. There is some sort of weird motivation to continually point out problems even though they are non affecting to the poster. Strange. ...
When the discussion begins to be reduced to colors or how the guide looks I believe the implementation is moving along just fine.
I do not find it strange at all. Fear of change is common...

SARA/PASSPORT <=> NAVIGATOR is not unlike the TIVO <=> SARA comments that were prevalent in the SARA thread a while ago.

There is a communications issue/problem in these threads: Need vs. Habit -- drawing the line - a personal line - between change that impacts what you are able to do change that impacts the way you do things. Perception vs. Intent -- What were these posts' purposes? Bitterness? Commiseration? Expecting Change? (although Diana may have encouraged this) Simple statement of preference (in case someone was listening)? Or provocative to try to get more posts from the users of NAVIGATOR?I myself, learn more [alarming, fearful things] from users who are defending or applauding the functionality...

I had PASSPORT first, and some of my expectations, and habits grew from that. I expect a series priority capability with simple to see and understand conflict resolution that I can tailor at any time. I expect to be able to change the guide listing [focus] channel to any channel number without changing the TV channel. I expect two buffered channels at all times (although I never used it much, I did use it occasionally). I expect the search function to cover the entire 7 days of guide information at once.

I have SARA now. It works well, I do not use it well. Some of its biggest strengths, I do not use. Some things above, I keep running into because I did not change my expectations and my viewing habits to suit the new situation.

But these are individual and not global. So the current issues, as phousley mentions probably should be the main points here. If this were a wiki, we could just move those non-[blank slate user] issues to a "Transition from SARA to NAVIGATOR" and "Transition from PASSPORT to NAVIGATOR" page and satisfy that concern without annoying the [blank slate] folks and those adapters who are "reasonable men".

But I think your main thesis "NAVIGATOR is OK and this thread would die except for the haters" is completely wrong, as you have generated a straw-man (for the existence of this thread) out of the transitional angst posts. The Navigator thread (maybe not this one) will not die for the same reason the SARA and PASSPORT threads will not: there are and will be quirks, bugs, and mis-understood or obscure features. But the first part is probably close, NAVIGATOR works. And you are also correct in stating that the transitional angst folks will get fed up enough and go elsewhere, or eventually "settle"...


v/r,
C-F

A reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. An unreasonable man persists in attempting to adapt his environment to suit himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

.....But I think your main thesis "NAVIGATOR is OK and this thread would die except for the haters" is completely wrong, as you have generated a straw-man (for the existence of this thread) out of the transitional angst posts. The Navigator thread (maybe not this one) will not die for the same reason the SARA and PASSPORT threads will not: there are and will be quirks, bugs, and mis-understood or obscure features. But the first part is probably close, NAVIGATOR works. And you are also correct in stating that the transitional angst folks will get fed up enough and go elsewhere, or eventually "settle"...


v/r,
C-F

Great post. I agree. You are right. The "die on the vine" comment was a wrong choice of words especially in their context.

Actually I should say "great posts". They have been great this morning.

I was speaking more to the Navigator must be replaced contingent and how these types of posts may have a tendency to "die on the vine" if they were not consistently and routinely regurgitated - by non users.

In any event I believe Navigator is here to stay. I also believe that some of the problems reported are cable card related - not necessarily Navigator. Especially the loss of recording ability for scheduled recordings. This sounds very familiar to what has been reported in some of the Tivo S3 and Tivo HD threads - cable card issues. Having to reboot the box to get connectivity back etc. Now add OCAP to the mix and there is a lot going on.

Throwing everything on the back of Navigator may be too easy.

But that being said Navigator will continue to improve. Cable card performance will improve - which should help with reliability issues (assuming it is a part of the problem). And OCAP will mature. And I am sure there is also a lot going on that we are not even aware of. These things should improve as well.

Throwing everything on the back of Navigator may be too easy.But I don't think it really matters. The majority of Navigator users do not understand all the constituent pieces, nor should they. When they "blame" Navigator, they are referring to the entire package and don't care if it's a cable card, OCAP, or server issue. They just know that their DVR does not work.

Also, keep in mind that like any product-related thread, this discussion is going to tend to be negatively biased. There are much fewer people who seek out an outlet to express their satisfication with a product than those who are experiencing a problem. That said, I appreciate hearing other's problems. It helps me put my observations in perspective and allows me to decide how best to deal with my problems, e.g. ask for a replacement, do things differently, complain to TW, or just be patient and wait for a fix.

But I don't think it really matters. The majority of Navigator users do not understand all the constituent pieces, nor should they. When they "blame" Navigator, they are referring to the entire package and don't care if it's a cable card, OCAP, or server issue. They just know that their DVR does not work.

Also, keep in mind that like any product-related thread, this discussion is going to tend to be negatively biased. There are much fewer people who seek out an outlet to express their satisfication with a product than those who are experiencing a problem. That said, I appreciate hearing other's problems. It helps me put my observations in perspective and allows me to decide how best to deal with my problems, e.g. ask for a replacement, do things differently, complain to TW, or just be patient and wait for a fix.

Agreed. If you are paying TWC upwards of $150 a month for your services and one of them is DVR, then by all means you have every right to EXPECT that service to function as advertised. This applies to even just DVR service at whatever rate you pay.

But I don't think it really matters. The majority of Navigator users do not understand all the constituent pieces, nor should they. When they "blame" Navigator, they are referring to the entire package and don't care if it's a cable card, OCAP, or server issue. They just know that their DVR does not work.

Also, keep in mind that like any product-related thread, this discussion is going to tend to be negatively biased. There are much fewer people who seek out an outlet to express their satisfaction with a product than those who are experiencing a problem. That said, I appreciate hearing other's problems. It helps me put my observations in perspective and allows me to decide how best to deal with my problems, e.g. ask for a replacement, do things differently, complain to TW, or just be patient and wait for a fix.

Great comments from everyone!

I think that what this boils down to is that some people love change, some people like change, some people don't care about change, and a lot of people who are more set in their ways are reluctant to learn something new when the change happens. They are (as Nextoo said) unjustly quick to lump all of the evils of the world onto Navigator's lap. They generally don't WANT to understand how the technology works, or all the intricacies that make the technology work. But from a laymen's perspective, there still is an issue with 65 year old Martha and 80 year old husband Harry who barely know how to use their TV's and after 5 years, they just feel comfortable with the Passport or Sara systems. Now they get a new box or they wake with a new "blue guide" that doesn't do what the old guide used to do, or does it in a different way, or has some bugs.

The problem is trying to convince elderly people or impatient people that the new guide is needed while they try to struggle with a new system. That is the biggest problem with Navigator. It's not user-friendly enough to general populations and people who just want to know the basics to feel comfortable with the new guide. Than, if these same people have to deal with the types of bugs that they shouldn't have to be dealing with after a year of testing and deployment in the field, that is where the frustration is.

Navigator should be better than the products that it is replacing. The new guide is still not strong enough to make that statement for whatever reasons.

Jack

Martha and Harry were never told there is a guide by the original installer so they have never pressed more than the channel up and down button.

Navigator Week 12

Undocumented feature discovered.

Sometimes when I pause live TV, when I resume, the language changes to Spanish.

Mui Bueno.

Navigator Week 12

Undocumented feature discovered.

Sometimes when I pause live TV, when I resume, the language changes to Spanish.

Mui Bueno.

How do you get it back to English?

Jack

Although my days are numbered with TWC (as posted previously) I would suggest this:

settings -> devices -> analog SAP -> off

Not sure if it will work. But it might eliminate the language issue which sounds like an SAP problem.

There is also this:

settings -> Audio SAP -> digital -> english/spanish. Toggle it to english.

Navigator Week 12

Undocumented feature discovered.

Sometimes when I pause live TV, when I resume, the language changes to Spanish.

Mui Bueno.

Happened to me too a few days ago! Just once, though, and I can not quite remember what I was doing at the time. Must be pausing live TV, as it is someting I rarely do. Got English back by going through Settings menu until I found something saying Spanish or Espanol and switched it back to English, can't remember what exactly. I thought it may have been my fault, as I use several macros with my universal remote, and sometimes they may get cut off if somebody walks in front of it.

...

My big problem with Navigator is that I can't trust it. As I have previously reported here, I lost several recordings the first week or so for no apparent reason. We still don't know what "channel not available" means, but it happens without any consistent pattern. I then went 2 or 3 weeks without any problems but, because of my early problems, I continually felt the need to monitor its functioning. Then, out of the blue, it dropped another recording that, because I was watching for it, I managed to record manually.
...
.

The more I think of "channel not available" issue, the more I belive it to be hardware, or maybe combination issue (hardware slightly flaky, software that has zero tolerance for flakiness). Otherwise, how do you explain my first box developing the issue quickly, and the second not developing it, 2.5 months so far, with the exact same build of Navigator. My guess is that cable card is/becomes flaky, and the Navigator (or OCAP) has no patience with it. While there are people here who had issues with 4 boxes in a row, I'd still suggest replacing the box, as you are right, the one thing that is not forgivable is not being able to trust that DVR will record a show that is scheduled to, and I doubt you can ever completely trust that box again.

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody with Navigator on a box without cable card (for example on 8300HD, not on 8300HDC)? Especially interesting would be to see, (provided we can find such Navigators), if any of them suffer from the "channel not available" bug.

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody with Navigator on a box without cable card (for example on 8300HD, not on 8300HDC)? Especially interesting would be to see, (provided we can find such Navigators), if any of them suffer from the "channel not available" bug.

Non OCAP DVR's and boxes in divisions that are being changed to Navigator should have the new guide sometime between the end of the year and the end of the first quarter of 2008. Some non-DVR SA boxes received the Navigator guide through a download between January-April. It appeared that these downloads were aborted when the problems in Lincoln Nebraska were brought up last year. Since April, regarding my division here in Wisconsin, I have only heard of Navigator on the new OCAP boxes. But when this changes, we will be able to observe if the cable card may be an issue. Interesting observation.

Jack

The more I think of "channel not available" issue, the more I belive it to be hardware, or maybe combination issue (hardware slightly flaky, software that has zero tolerance for flakiness). Otherwise, how do you explain my first box developing the issue quickly, and the second not developing it, 2.5 months so far, with the exact same build of Navigator. My guess is that cable card is/becomes flaky, and the Navigator (or OCAP) has no patience with it. While there are people here who had issues with 4 boxes in a row, I'd still suggest replacing the box, as you are right, the one thing that is not forgivable is not being able to trust that DVR will record a show that is scheduled to, and I doubt you can ever completely trust that box again.

Just out of curiosity, is there anybody with Navigator on a box without cable card (for example on 8300HD, not on 8300HDC)? Especially interesting would be to see, (provided we can find such Navigators), if any of them suffer from the "channel not available" bug.

It might be a Navigator AND OCAP issue. The installer said that OCAP boxes are a pain in the @$$ because they do not take changes well. I saw this when it took two extra days to get TBS-HD on the OCAP box and it was added overnight on the Passport box.

I have had problems with the DVR suddenly not working and it required a reboot. It took 5 reboots to get the DVR and show list back.

I've also had the channel not available bug and the best solution I've found is a weekly reboot.

Non OCAP DVR's and boxes in divisions that are being changed to Navigator should have the new guide sometime between the end of the year and the end of the first quarter of 2008. Some non-DVR SA boxes received the Navigator guide through a download between January-April. It appeared that these downloads were aborted when the problems in Lincoln Nebraska were brought up last year. Since April, regarding my division here in Wisconsin, I have only heard of Navigator on the new OCAP boxes. But when this changes, we will be able to observe if the cable card may be an issue. Interesting observation.

Jack

Thanks for the info! I have heard rumors that the legacy boxes would be "Navigatorized" soon. It will be interesting to see what will happen to older SA8000s and Pioneer boxes. My guess now would be that they will come around and swap out the older boxes for newer, OCAP models. Like replacing 8000s with 8300HDCs and any non-DVR boxes with 4250 HDC boxes.

http://scientificatlanta.com/products/customers/G1656A-8300C.pdf

http://scientificatlanta.com/products/customers/G1654A-4250C.pdf

Thanks for the info! I have heard rumors that the legacy boxes would be "Navigatorized" soon. It will be interesting to see what will happen to older SA8000s and Pioneer boxes. My guess now would be that they will come around and swap out the older boxes for newer, OCAP models. Like replacing 8000s with 8300HDCs and any non-DVR boxes with 4250 HDC boxes.

http://scientificatlanta.com/products/customers/G1656A-8300C.pdf

http://scientificatlanta.com/products/customers/G1654A-4250C.pdf

As I understand it, part of the issue for those 8300HD users will be a the separate version of Craptigator it will use, apparently due to less RAM being available.

The more I think of "channel not available" issue, the more I belive it to be hardware, or maybe combination issue (hardware slightly flaky, software that has zero tolerance for flakiness). Otherwise, how do you explain my first box developing the issue quickly, and the second not developing it, 2.5 months so far, with the exact same build of Navigator. My guess is that cable card is/becomes flaky, and the Navigator (or OCAP) has no patience with it. While there are people here who had issues with 4 boxes in a row, I'd still suggest replacing the box, as you are right, the one thing that is not forgivable is not being able to trust that DVR will record a show that is scheduled to, and I doubt you can ever completely trust that box again.


I've not had the "channel not available" issue since box #2, no changes to software unless the profile number is part of software. I've always assumed that was maybe the guide version - anyone know what it really is?

Box #5 has not spontaneously rebooted after 6 days yet, but it did need a reboot on day 3.

As I understand it, part of the issue for those 8300HD users will be a the separate version of Craptigator it will use, apparently due to less RAM being available.

Yes,

That is what I heard as well. The versions of Crapigator that were downloaded earlier this year (January-April) were for the legacy boxes and DVR's. The rumor is that they were aborted because of all of the problems that people were having with Crapigator. It is believed that TWC is watching how well Navigator is behaving on the new C-boxes, and it has been a mixed bag depending on division. Once they can get the "Crap" out concerning Navigator's performance on the C-card boxes, it is presumed that they can deploy a non-OCAP version via download to existing boxes.

Someone also posted that the current DVR's have 128 mgs of RAM so they SHOULD (knock on wood) be ok whenever they are upgraded. The newer (non DVR boxes) that are SA models have 32 Megs of Ram. Older SA non-DVR boxes have 16 Megs of RAM, which is about the minimum requirement for Navigator to run well. Pace boxes I believe have 8 Megs of Ram and the Pioneer models when cable first came out only have 4 Megs of Ram. On the few 4-8 Meg models, customers during the experimental download phase often saw a very sluggish guide, with "No Data" showing up often. On the 16 Meg SA boxes or higher, the data moved very fast. What this means is that if the current legacy boxes with much less memory don't take the upgrade well, the customer will have to swap them, or TWC will come out and change them as each node ( i.e Neighborhood division) gets changed over.

TWC was hoping that the lesser RAM boxes would not have to be changed, but I can not see how Navigator is going to deal with any boxes that are under 16 megs of RAM.

Jack

My local TWC site keeps saying "coming soon" in reference to Caller ID over TV. Is this a function of Navigator?

Yes,

That is what I heard as well. The versions of Crapigator that were downloaded earlier this year (January-April) were for the legacy boxes and DVR's. The rumor is that they were aborted because of all of the problems that people were having with Crapigator. It is believed that TWC is watching how well Navigator is behaving on the new C-boxes, and it has been a mixed bag depending on division. Once they can get the "Crap" out concerning Navigator's performance on the C-card boxes, it is presumed that they can deploy a non-OCAP version via download to existing boxes.

Someone also posted that the current DVR's have 128 mgs of RAM so they SHOULD (knock on wood) be ok whenever they are upgraded. The newer (non DVR boxes) that are SA models have 32 Megs of Ram. Older SA non-DVR boxes have 16 Megs of RAM, which is about the minimum requirement for Navigator to run well. Pace boxes I believe have 8 Megs of Ram and the Pioneer models when cable first came out only have 4 Megs of Ram. On the few 4-8 Meg models, customers during the experimental download phase often saw a very sluggish guide, with "No Data" showing up often. On the 16 Meg SA boxes or higher, the data moved very fast. What this means is that if the current legacy boxes with much less memory don't take the upgrade well, the customer will have to swap them, or TWC will come out and change them as each node ( i.e Neighborhood division) gets changed over.

TWC was hoping that the lesser RAM boxes would not have to be changed, but I can not see how Navigator is going to deal with any boxes that are under 16 megs of RAM.

Jack

If Navigator is well designed (it could be well designed but not well implemented) then is would be modular. This means that there wouldn't truely be different versions. Only the modules necessary to support the capabilites of the target hardware would be loaded. A non-DVR box wouldn't need any type of scheduling or recording software, so it just wouldn't be loaded. All that would need to be loaded would the software for the guide and the decryption routines. With decryption, the cable card boxes would load a different module than the older boxes with a decryption chip built into the hardware. WIth less software to load, there would be less chance for program bugs, implying that the older non-DVR boxes would be more stable.

If Navigator is truely written in Java as rumors imply (does anyone have a link to a definitive document that states that it is Java), then the software would be modular, the very nature of Java encourages this type of design.

If Navigator is truely written in Java as rumors imply (does anyone have a link to a definitive document that states that it is Java), then the software would be modular, the very nature of Java encourages this type of design.Some of must be Java. The Java symbol is shown on one of the boot screens.

I ditched Spanish by going back to live TV.

Yes, Navigator is sitting on top of a Java implementation called OCAP. Search back on my posts and you'll find the links you're looking for, there's whole websites devoted to the OCAP standard.

Or you can WikiGoogle it.

My local TWC site keeps saying "coming soon" in reference to Caller ID over TV. Is this a function of Navigator?

I got caller ID once I got my HD box with Navigator. You have to have Digital Phone service with TWC.

Everytime I swap a box out I lose it for a few days and I really miss it until it gets turned back on.

I got caller ID once I got my HD box with Navigator. You have to have Digital Phone service with TWC.

Everytime I swap a box out I lose it for a few days and I really miss it until it gets turned back on.

Or if you don't want to wait for a day or two for the reactivation of TV Caller ID on a new box, call your TWC office, and they can turn it on there.

Jack

If Navigator is well designed (it could be well designed but not well implemented) then is would be modular. This means that there wouldn't truely be different versions. Only the modules necessary to support the capabilites of the target hardware would be loaded. A non-DVR box wouldn't need any type of scheduling or recording software, so it just wouldn't be loaded. All that would need to be loaded would the software for the guide and the decryption routines. With decryption, the cable card boxes would load a different module than the older boxes with a decryption chip built into the hardware. WIth less software to load, there would be less chance for program bugs, implying that the older non-DVR boxes would be more stable.

If Navigator is truely written in Java as rumors imply (does anyone have a link to a definitive document that states that it is Java), then the software would be modular, the very nature of Java encourages this type of design.
I understand it's the other way around:
http://www.ctam.com/ocap/

OCAP/PowerTV RTOS needs to be tailored to each STB in order to present a COMMON software
interface so that once a developer has written a JAVA application (e.g. Navigator), it will run on
ANY STB without any further tailoring....

Just as most any JAVA application is supposed to run on any operating system....

What's the point in all this? The idea is so that third party manufacturers can make STB's that will work on any cable system. Therefore, people won't have to rent them. However, where is the third party support? The more I think about it, the more I feel the whole Navigator is a waste of time and effort. In the end, even if third parties offer STB's, the cable co will probably charge a fee to use it on their system. If not, people will still be roped into using STB's from the provider at whatever the "rental" fee is. I guess I just get the feeling that when the smoke clears that the consumer will be the one who winds up paying more for an idea that was supposed to save them money.

What's the point in all this? The idea is so that third party manufacturers can make STB's that will work on any cable system. Therefore, people won't have to rent them.
However, where is the third party support?From CableLabs.The more I think about it, the more I feel the whole Navigator is a waste of time and effort.Navigator is TW's OCAP interface (though there are apparently non-OCAP versions as well). In the end, even if third parties offer STB's, the cable co will probably charge a fee to use it on their system.You mean like TiVo does? :rolleyes: [Quote]

Hello all. This is my first post. (I found this site through a google search while trying to research my problem, as set forth below.)

I have TWC in Manhattan. I recently bought an HDTV after my old CRT crapped out, and yesterday swapped the old non-HD (Passport) box for the new (Navigator) 8300HDC box. I expected a lot of useless new features in this upgrade, but I never expected to lose useful functionality! But that is exactly what happened here. While I have not yet figured out all that I have lost, here are two biggies:

(a) No control over series priority. As best as I can tell, in a recording conflict the box itself, rather than the user, chooses which program loses out. Better hope you and your box have similar tastes!

(b) No ability to limit series recording by channel or start times. This is critically important, because once you get off the networks and on cable, the cable box loses the ability to figure out when an episode is "new." These limitations were a way to achieve the same result. No more.

What the heck kind of "upgrade" is this? And more importantly, is there any hope that these new features will be added in the future???

I am not a brainless booster of the old box. The old non-HD cable box used to crap out on me on average of once a year (not sure whether this is a hardware or software problem), but its user interface and functionality was far, far better than the new one. This whole thing makes no sense.

Anyway, if someone in the "know" could tell me whether I have any hope to regain what I lost, I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!

I understand it's the other way around:
http://www.ctam.com/ocap/

OCAP/PowerTV RTOS needs to be tailored to each STB in order to present a COMMON software
interface so that once a developer has written a JAVA application (e.g. Navigator), it will run on
ANY STB without any further tailoring....

Just as most any JAVA application is supposed to run on any operating system....

thanks for the link, there's lots of info there. I have a Passport DVR, my experence with Navigator is about 15 minutes at my wife's parent's house.

If I am reading things correctly, OCAP is basically a Java run time environment

I just got caller ID working on my ocap box it just showed up on the screen today

Hello all. This is my first post. (I found this site through a google search while trying to research my problem, as set forth below.)

I have TWC in Manhattan. I recently bought an HDTV after my old CRT crapped out, and yesterday swapped the old non-HD (Passport) box for the new (Navigator) 8300HDC box. I expected a lot of useless new features in this upgrade, but I never expected to lose useful functionality! But that is exactly what happened here. While I have not yet figured out all that I have lost, here are two biggies:

(a) No control over series priority. As best as I can tell, in a recording conflict the box itself, rather than the user, chooses which program loses out. Better hope you and your box have similar tastes!

(b) No ability to limit series recording by channel or start times. This is critically important, because once you get off the networks and on cable, the cable box loses the ability to figure out when an episode is "new." These limitations were a way to achieve the same result. No more.

What the heck kind of "upgrade" is this? And more importantly, is there any hope that these new features will be added in the future???

I am not a brainless booster of the old box. The old non-HD cable box used to crap out on me on average of once a year (not sure whether this is a hardware or software problem), but its user interface and functionality was far, far better than the new one. This whole thing makes no sense.

Anyway, if someone in the "know" could tell me whether I have any hope to regain what I lost, I would greatly appreciate. Thanks!

Welcome to the forum,

I am still a Passport user, but feel my time is limited. You will learn A TON of information about Navigator from this forum:

To address the concerns:

(a) No control over series priority. As best as I can tell, in a recording conflict the box itself, rather than the user, chooses which program loses out. Better hope you and your box have similar tastes!

Supposedly, there IS some type of recording conflict message that pops up. (Has anyone seen this alert?) But the problem is that a lot of people aren't home or watching their TV's during the message pop-up. There have been reports of people seeing no message in a recording conflict and as you said, "The box just deciding for them."

(b) No ability to limit series recording by channel or start times. This is critically important, because once you get off the networks and on cable, the cable box loses the ability to figure out when an episode is "new." These limitations were a way to achieve the same result. No more.

Yes, that is a HUGE issue! An upgrade to fix this is desperately needed. I don't use the Series Recording Manager. But has anyone heard from the higher ups at TWC as to how Navigator defines a "new" recording?

Dellajo,

Have you had issues with audio dropouts or the much talked about "Channel Not Available" bug?

Jack

What's the point in all this? The idea is so that third party manufacturers can make STB's that will work on any cable system. Therefore, people won't have to rent them. However, where is the third party support? The more I think about it, the more I feel the whole Navigator is a waste of time and effort. In the end, even if third parties offer STB's, the cable co will probably charge a fee to use it on their system. If not, people will still be roped into using STB's from the provider at whatever the "rental" fee is. I guess I just get the feeling that when the smoke clears that the consumer will be the one who winds up paying more for an idea that was supposed to save them money.
The PRIMARY "benefit" of this grand wandering through the wilderness will be those who will
eventually buy the NEXT generation of iDCR HDTVs, with full two-way capabilities built into the set,
esp. when an HDTV has integrated DVR and-or HD-DVD burner....and cable modem for I-N, et. al.

This will eliminate the external STB-DVR and multiplicity of difficult to understand remote controls.
And make it really easy to relocate your expensive, integrated HDTV-HDDVR-HDDVD-Media Center
to another cable network.

So its something my WIFE will greatly appreciate sometime in the FUTURE.....

Oh, by the way, it also opens up the market for STB-DVRs to many more vendors who can then
ADD whatever bells and whistles they deem are marketable (on-line driven guide? I-N Browser?).

==========================================
Once they get this up and working---correctly---OCAP-Navigator "should work" at least as well as VISTA
(XP? Win98? DOS?) and be supported by the cable systems.
Whoever manufactured your CableCARD HD-DVR or iDCR HDTV should be responsible for providing "support",
whether that means fixing problems in your equipment or working with cable systems to chase problems in
cable headend and-or downloaded OCAP-Navigator software.
[Surely you remembered to buy the extended-extended warranty???] But your local TV tech is ill prepared......

Navigator has improved significantly. And it will continue to evolve.

You're having better luck than folks in Kansas City. I wouldn't have minded being a beta tester for a reduced monthly rate but I got all the bugs, sluggish menus, freeze ups, missing and incomplete recordings for full price. Change is fine, bring it on, just don't make the functionality so poor that you're getting significantly less service for the same price.

The roll out here was a joke as TWC didn't know what was going on. As long as I reboot every 3 or 4 days it has decent functionality. I can't wait for the next "evolution" of Navigator should be fun!

BTW, 3 friends have already left TWC and it wasn't because they didn't like the "blue" menus...
I'm still with them though, guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.

You're having better luck than folks in Kansas City......

That appears to be the case here in SE WI. Which makes me wonder if much of this is plant/hardware driven as much as it is software driven. I've posted before that I'm starting to think cable card implementation may have a lot to do with some of the SA8300HDC problems.

We have a local forum here for HDTV users. Very little comments about Navigator. No master hate thread. As a matter of fact most of the complaints lately have to do with Passport boxes spontaneously and repeatedly rebooting. Go figure.

That appears to be the case here in SE WI. Which makes me wonder if much of this is plant/hardware driven as much as it is software driven. I've posted before that I'm starting to think cable card implementation may have a lot to do with some of the SA8300HDC problems.

We have a local forum here for HDTV users. Very little comments about Navigator. No master hate thread. As a matter of fact most of the complaints lately have to do with Passport boxes spontaneously and repeatedly rebooting. Go figure.

I've been hearing so much about the Cable Card and would like to know more about it,

From what I understand, the Cable Card (as a stand alone) was designed so that the customer could receive cable channels without a box for something like an additional $1.95/mo. There were some disadvantages, for one you could not order PPV or I-Control programs, could not get the Music Choice channels, and could not get the Digital Program Guide. I am not sure exactly what channels you could get with a cable card. But my recollection was that it was similar to the old analog cable "Direct TV" line-up. This was years ago before digital cable was out and you could plug your cable TV in without a box, get channels 2-99, and didn't have to pay the added $7.00 per month or whatever for a box. (But the channels would often be in a different order.)

So flash forward. What's the point of having an integrated cable card in these new boxes and DVR's? Since most people need digital boxes to take full advantage of cable TV's offerings and have digital boxes in the first place, why have the cable card? It just seems like a step backward. Wouldn't it be interesting of the crux of the problems on the new boxes were indeed related to the cable card conflicting with Navigator and not so much Navigator itself? I'd like to learn more information about the cable cards and why the FCC mandated them in these new boxes. Was this the ONLY way that was available to get additional services like more HD channels and interactive content from the boxes?

I am getting very interested on how Navigator responds to boxes that aren't OCAPS.

Jack

Supposedly, there IS some type of recording conflict message that pops up. (Has anyone seen this alert?) But the problem is that a lot of people aren't home or watching their TV's during the message pop-up. There have been reports of people seeing no message in a recording conflict and as you said, "The box just deciding for them."

Yes, I've seen it. But as you point out, the whole point of pre-set series priority is that you get to set it all at the outset, in advance, and then never have to worry about it. I am not even sure how the box is setting series priority --first in, last out? TWC could at least tell us THAT.

Have you had issues with audio dropouts or the much talked about "Channel Not Available" bug?

Not yet, but I've only had it a day. When I got home and first plugged it in, I did get a "This cable box is not authorized" message, which required a 45-minute call to TWC to straighten out. I would note that the prior Passport-based box, although it had superior functionality, had all manner of bugs as well. Sometimes, it would choose not to record a show, even though it was on series manager. Sometimes, it would only record a few minutes of the show. Etc., etc. I am just annoyed because I expected the new box to be a step up, not a step down. My wife is already mad at me for switching! Oh well.

I've been hearing so much about the Cable Card and would like to know more about it,

From what I understand, the Cable Card (as a stand alone) was designed so that the customer could receive cable channels without a box for something like an additional $1.95/mo. There were some disadvantages, for one you could not order PPV or I-Control programs, could not get the Music Choice channels, and could not get the Digital Program Guide. I am not sure exactly what channels you could get with a cable card. But my recollection was that it was similar to the old analog cable "Direct TV" line-up. This was years ago before digital cable was out and you could plug your cable TV in without a box, get channels 2-99, and didn't have to pay the added $7.00 per month or whatever for a box. (But the channels would often be in a different order.)

So flash forward. What's the point of having an integrated cable card in these new boxes and DVR's? Since most people need digital boxes to take full advantage of cable TV's offerings and have digital boxes in the first place, why have the cable card? It just seems like a step backward. Wouldn't it be interesting of the crux of the problems on the new boxes were indeed related to the cable card conflicting with Navigator and not so much Navigator itself? I'd like to learn more information about the cable cards and why the FCC mandated them in these new boxes. Was this the ONLY way that was available to get additional services like more HD channels and interactive content from the boxes?

I am getting very interested on how Navigator responds to boxes that aren't OCAPS.

Jack

Part of OCAP has to do with the fact people want "choice" in cable equipment. Once again, government regulation messing with something that worked fine and didn't need to be changed. Cable cards were not advertised and don't always work well when installed. The cable companies want to sell thier $7.00 box instead of a $1.95 card. Customers want to be "different" and use a cable card tuner or buy the $900 TIVO S3 instead of using cable company equipment. I have been satisfied with my SA equipment and the Passport software. I'd rather have a properly working SA8300 with Passport and NO cable card than Crapigator or an expensive DVR of another brand I have to buy and may not work with SDV.

Part of OCAP has to do with the fact people want "choice" in cable equipment. Once again, government regulation messing with something that worked fine and didn't need to be changed. Cable cards were not advertised and don't always work well when installed. The cable companies want to sell thier $7.00 box instead of a $1.95 card. Customers want to be "different" and use a cable card tuner or buy the $900 TIVO S3 instead of using cable company equipment. I have been satisfied with my SA equipment and the Passport software. I'd rather have a properly working SA8300 with Passport and NO cable card than Crapigator or an expensive DVR of another brand I have to buy and may not work with SDV.
CableCARD has nothing to do with Navigator. Passport supports CableCARD just fine; TWC simply chose not to pay for it, instead going in-house with Navigator.

.....TWC simply chose not to pay for it, instead going in-house with Navigator.

Perhaps. But my guess is that it is not that simple. For example when TWC first used Passport its developer, Aptiv, was owned by Pioneer. Pioneer produced STBs for TWC. Everybody was happy.

But now Aptiv is owned by Gemstar - the guide company. Gemstar's majority owner is Rupert Murdoch - famous for many things. Among them DirectTV. Is it possible that TWC does not feel comfortable with this arrangement? Perhaps.

As I've posted previously there are a lot of moving parts. Both on the technical side of the equation as well as the political.

I doubt that Murdoch even cares about TWC in the respect of competition seeing as how he is dumping DirecTV off to Liberty Media.

That's in the present.

I have a hunch that when the controlling interest for Aptiv went to Gemstar TWC began discussions to bring the technology inside. I'm sure they had contractual obligations to Aptiv but simply ran out the clock while it ramped up its internal development.

When Aptiv was owned by Pioneer there were no potential conflicts. When Aptiv was cut loose by Pioneer this changed.

The choices appear to be to continue with Aptiv or go internal. There really aren't any other external options. Politically I don't think continuing with Aptiv had a chance.

Just an opinion.

I doubt that Murdoch even cares about TWC in the respect of competition seeing as how he is dumping DirecTV off to Liberty Media.

It's not so much whether or not Murdoch cares. It's whether or not TWC cares.

Gemstar is currently for sale. Meaning so is Aptiv. Murdoch's recent acquisition of Dow Jones means Murdoch needs to be more liquid. How would you feel if your operating system/guide was on the blocks? And not for the first time. Not knowing who the ultimate owner may be.

Aptiv has been an M&A football over the past few years. Personally this would not make me comfortable. I'm not sure if I would mortgage my future on a company that has been bought and sold which included incestuous relationships with my competitors.

Going inside was probably the right decision. Now they just have to make it work. Based on some reports Navigator works pretty well. In my case it does.

I've been hearing so much about the Cable Card and would like to know more about it,

From what I understand, the Cable Card (as a stand alone) was designed so that the customer could receive cable channels without a box for something like an additional $1.95/mo. There were some disadvantages, for one you could not order PPV or I-Control programs, could not get the Music Choice channels, and could not get the Digital Program Guide. I am not sure exactly what channels you could get with a cable card. But my recollection was that it was similar to the old analog cable "Direct TV" line-up. This was years ago before digital cable was out and you could plug your cable TV in without a box, get channels 2-99, and didn't have to pay the added $7.00 per month or whatever for a box. (But the channels would often be in a different order.)

So flash forward. What's the point of having an integrated cable card in these new boxes and DVR's? Since most people need digital boxes to take full advantage of cable TV's offerings and have digital boxes in the first place, why have the cable card? It just seems like a step backward. Wouldn't it be interesting of the crux of the problems on the new boxes were indeed related to the cable card conflicting with Navigator and not so much Navigator itself? I'd like to learn more information about the cable cards and why the FCC mandated them in these new boxes. Was this the ONLY way that was available to get additional services like more HD channels and interactive content from the boxes?

I am getting very interested on how Navigator responds to boxes that aren't OCAPS.

Jack
The Consumer Equipment Association (CEA) demanded cable companies make it easy to plug
a cable coax into a "Digital Cable Ready" DTV (or PC)....just like an analog "Cable Ready" TV.
Congress---and then the executive hammer (the FCC)--- tried to make it happen....
This eliminates the "extra box"...and esp. the confusing remote control shuffle,
which is going to get even more difficult with next gen interactive features:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_television
Think of your iDTV and PC eventually evolving into a single integrated unit....

One-way CableCARD-I was a stop-gap solution, making it possible for DCR HDTV's to watch most
of the encrypted digital cable channels....but it didn't support two-way controls for the Guide,
instant PPV ordering and.....next gen cable system enhancements (SDV, IPTV, interactive TV, tbd....)
Hence, fewer than 300,000 CableCARDs were ever issued....

Two-way CableCARD-II (aka M-CARD) is solution for next generation "interactive" iDVR, iDCR HDTVs....
which will hit your local retailer whenever they finally fix the software bugs in OCAP/Navigator.
Since these devices can contain their own DVR, there may be greater success for two-way M-CARDs.

Turns out, there is actually no difference between CC-I and CC-II decryption modules....the two-way
capability depends on the host STB/DVR/HDTV sending control information to the cable headend
(via an uplink modulator that is apparently missing in current DCR HDTV's and TiVo Ser3).

TiVo is working with CableLabs on an external "dongle" that will support at least some two-way
capabilities (like SDV)....we should learn what it does (and doesn't do) soon....

OCAP (the agreed upon software "middleware") and other applications (e.g. Navigator)
are supposed to be the SAME ("common reliance") for both cable and consumer equipment so they
SHARE the pain---and responsibility---of making it work correctly. Hence the cable headend
downloads the latest version to attached iDVR, iDCR HDTV....and eventually interactive Media Centers....

Although the Consumer Equipment Assoc is trying to push for some sort of (half-baked), two-way
solution that permits equipment manufacturers to "roll-their-own" software, Cable has
"rejected it with extreme prejudice"...for several very good reasons:
http://www.ncta.com/DocumentBinary.aspx?id=635
[And if Cable doesn't want it to happen....furgetaboutit....]

PS: CableCARD was originally pushed by CEA---and agreed to by Cable.
However, the ban on integrated security in ALL NEW cable boxes was NOT stipulated by
Congress and has been vigorously fought by cable:
http://www.ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?hidenavlink=true&type=lpubtp10&contentId=3556

OCAP/M-CARD is ONLY two-way solution currently AGREED upon by both CEA and Cable which will
support next generation cable architecture....in the future they may (or may NOT) agree to an
OCAP/DCAS solution which eliminates the M-CARD by embedding encryption into the box itself.

TWC is currently pursuing NAVIGATOR as their Guide....which must run on OCAP....
And other systems have their own Guide developments...which must run on OCAP....

Breaking News re TiVo/M-Card "Dongle":
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/11-26-2007/0004711019&EDATE=

Will be available from your local cable provider in 2nd Qtr of 2008.

Will support SDV (Switched Digital Video)....but apparently not PPV, interactive Guide, et. al.

Will be available for use with any unidirectional device (e.g. current "DCR" DTVs),
as long as they have a USB port and modify their firmware to actually control the "dongle".

Will indeed be supported in current TiVo Series 3 HD-DVR....

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6505106

While I would miss my free in demand stuff, it will be nice to have this option in Q2 if Navigator doesn't go well!

xnappo

Perhaps. But my guess is that it is not that simple. For example when TWC first used Passport its developer, Aptiv, was owned by Pioneer. Pioneer produced STBs for TWC. Everybody was happy.

But now Aptiv is owned by Gemstar - the guide company. Gemstar's majority owner is Rupert Murdoch - famous for many things. Among them DirectTV. Is it possible that TWC does not feel comfortable with this arrangement? Perhaps.

As I've posted previously there are a lot of moving parts. Both on the technical side of the equation as well as the political.

Hmmm, interesting. But even if Time Warner has issues with Aptiv and their owners, why decide to come up with in-house software? Why not switch all areas to SARA instead of Navigator? SARS is a slightly stripped down, less graphic version of Passport and it has worked in the past. Navigator has yet to produce a reliable and stable DVR.

And really, I wouldn't think either side is too worried about competing TV sources. I highly doubt Gemstar's Aptiv would purposely "sabotage" Passport to screw the competition. Directv is doing a great job of beating the competition on its own.

I'm guessing that it is time to renew the license to the Passport software and since TW uses SARA and Passport, that's too much money for them to spend. We all know how TW is tight with the money. So they decide to go in-house with Navigator.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA6505106

While I would miss my free in demand stuff, it will be nice to have this option in Q2 if Navigator doesn't go well!

xnappo

I see you have the 8300HD with SARA. I can't wait to see how Navigator will work on non-OCAP boxes(any box withOUT the "C" after HD). So far on this forum, we have seen how navigator works on OCAP boxes only. This will be the test to see if the problems are with Navigator or with how Navigator interacts with OCAP.

It is a very real possibility you will see Navigator by the year's end or the beginning of next year. I've heard rumors here that Navigator will be spread to more markets. Could the license for Passport be up and now Time Warner is desperate?

I agree with others who state that the problems with Navigator being reported in some divisions more than others could be muti-causal. The main variables are:

1.) The cable system itself.

2.) The functionality of the equipment at the local headquarters.

3.) The foundation of the cable at the head-end. How modern a particular node is in receiving/transmitting the information.

4.) The age of the boxes.

5.) The speed/rate of data transfer.

6.) The software (i.e Navigator, Passport, Sara) running on the boxes.

7.) The amount of RAM on the boxes.

8.) The competency of the head-end techs.

9.) The levels of communication between local, state, and national levels, as updates are released.

10.) The type of box (OCAP vs. Non-OCAP) being run on the cable system. (DVR vs. non-DVR)

So this goes, WAAAAAY above and beyond Navigator. Let's say that those are 10 factors that have to be looked at for new updates, and than lets say that in order for Navigator to run really well it would have to pass 26 tests designated by 26 letters in the alphabet:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ.

Let's say that each letter represents some hypothetical code of all of those 10 points listed above in order for everything to work when Navigator is applied to an existing TWC system. Letter A might be how well the cable system is updated or has been updated in the past. B might be the issues with the head-end. C might be the age of the boxes in the nodes (communities) where Navigator was/plans to be applied.

Here's why I THINK there is so much inconsistency with regards to Navigator's performance per division. I think that the Nebraska division President obviously went "OH AWWWEEE I love Navigator!!!! and you will as well." The problem is, the developers in that Lincoln division were probably up to letter D in all of the testing and compatibility issues and last January just rolled out Navigator blindly to everyone in Lincoln. Other divisions saw the problems and they may have waited to get down to about letter S and released Navigator at that time. It still needed A LOT of work, but it was at least better than that Nebraska debacle.

Milwaukee was one of the early test cities, but they pulled the plug on downloads to Non-OCAP boxes back in April. But at least they seem to have had better success where they might be at the letter V with only minor issues.

So the questions are:

1.) How much has each division taken those 10 factors into account?

2.) How much has each division gone through the 26 test points before releasing Navigator in each division?

IF OCAP integrating with Navigator is the crux of a lot of the problems and TMC has worked out the bugs with the OCAP boxes and the Navigator non-OCAP boxes do not show serious problems, Navigator COULD be at about a W and I think most people would be happy. BUT, if there are OCAP issues mixed in with the other non-related issues, and legacy boxes and DVR's are at about a letter G by next year, than this is going to be very bad for TWC.

They had better check those "Alphabet tests" and get damn close to the end. If the first divisions only would have done that in the first place last year, this guide could be at a W easily, with the potential for a close to perfect Z guide comparable to Passport or Sara at this time. There were too many divisions that didn't do their homework. (It appears that Wisconsin did its job based on what Nextoo has said.) Other states released Navigator too fast. Will they learn from their mistakes when Navigator is released to the legacy boxes, while continuing to improve the performance of the OCAP models? This is what everyone wants to know.

Jack

PS. Actually, one small thing that Nick said above that's incorrect. The boxes WITH C's on the end of the model numbers are the new OCAP models. The boxes WITHOUT C's on the end are NON-OCAPS.

I can't wait to see how Navigator will work on non-OCAP boxes(any box with the "C" after HD).Nick, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your statement indicates that SA8300HD is OCAP and SA8300HDC is non-OCAP. I'ts really the other way around (the 8300HDC is the OCAP box). And by OCAP they mean that it is OCAP capable, it doesn't have to run OCAP.

So far on this forum, we have seen how navigator works on OCAP boxes only. This will be the test to see if the problems are with Navigator or with how Navigator interacts with OCAP. It's not clear that the Navigator versions used when this thread was started in Lincoln were OCAP. At least the boxes that they were used were not "OCAP compatible".

It is a very real possibility you will see Navigator by the year's end or the beginning of next year. I've heard rumors here that Navigator will be spread to more markets. Could the license for Passport be up and now Time Warner is desperate?But that (Passport expiration) doesn't impact SARA systems. (But TW always could continue to make dumb mistakes and dump it onto SARA systems seeing as there are problems with the CC compatable SARA versions {1.90-.xx.xx}).

Interesting comments over at Tivo community.

Losing HD feed:
Losing HD feed - TiVo Community (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=375547)

Audio out of sync:
Audio out of sync problems on TivoHD - TiVo Community (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=364578)

TivoHD-All video vanishes:
TiVo HD - All Video Vanishes - TiVo Community (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=365824)

Sounds familiar. So does the reboot solution. I don't think the answer is to scrap the Tivo experience and bring in Passport.

I guess my point is compared to what? It looks like the Navigator users that are experiencing problems are not alone - across platforms.

edit -

one more - Tivo Black Screen and Reboot:
Tivo Black Screen and Reboot - TiVo Community (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=372716)

This one really sounds like Navigator.

Or if you don't want to wait for a day or two for the reactivation of TV Caller ID on a new box, call your TWC office, and they can turn it on there.

Jack

Yeah, but I was enjoying free HBO, Showtime, etc. for a few days until they caught things up!

Nick, I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, but your statement indicates that SA8300HD is OCAP and SA8300HDC is non-OCAP. I'ts really the other way around (the 8300HDC is the OCAP box). And by OCAP they mean that it is OCAP capable, it doesn't have to run OCAP.

It's not clear that the Navigator versions used when this thread was started in Lincoln were OCAP. At least the boxes that they were used were not "OCAP compatible".

I corrected that statement. It was a case of I had an idea in my head and it didn't come out how I expected it. I was thinking baout how the OCAP boxes are called "HDC". It's Monday!:o

I agree with others who state that the problems with Navigator being reported in some divisions more than others could be muti-causal. The main variables are:

Jack



Jack, great review. I didn't quote your entire post for space concerns. :eek: :)

And I think your post does point to a fact. There is a lot going on. And it is difficult to nail down exactly what is or should be of concern to specific markets.

Great job. Thanks.

...

(a) No control over series priority. As best as I can tell, in a recording conflict the box itself, rather than the user, chooses which program loses out. Better hope you and your box have similar tastes!

(b) No ability to limit series recording by channel or start times. This is critically important, because once you get off the networks and on cable, the cable box loses the ability to figure out when an episode is "new." These limitations were a way to achieve the same result. No more.
...

(a) The Navigator has a well-defined, but user-hostile way of setting priorities: recording that was scheduled later wins, unless specified by user. So, you can do the following: write your series names on a piece of paper, order them the way you want, delete them all from Navigator, then add them in reverse importance order (i.e. the least important ones first). A lot of hassle, but a one-time thing. As you add individual recordings later, they will tend to trump series, since they will be newer. If you have (or suspect you may have) a conflict, go to the Scheduled Recording List. Navigator will display the "losing" one (i.e. the one that will not be recorded due to conflict) with a special icon; if you select it, the box will give you a choice to manually resolve the conflict - i.e. pick which one of your recordings to drop. This will work on a per-recording basis, not per series, so if you don't want to do the same thing every week, sort your series up front as mentioned above, and leave this conflict resolution for individual recordings.
Note that once in a long while, Navigator will do something quite smart (OK, this is the only smart thing I've seen it do) - if you have a series recording set up on a channel that will show a new episode twice (say at 9pm and 12am), and both are labeled New (SciFi does that a lot), Navigator will notice that this is the same episode, and will record only the first one (at 9). If you later create a conflict at 9, it will silently switch to recording the episode at 12; no conflict will appear.

(b) The content/guide providers frequently do not flag their shows appropriately. In general, you are right, the networks are more reliable than cable, but it is not that all cable channels are bad that way. Some cable channels seem to label their shows as New pretty well (SciFi, Comedy Channel), some do not bother at all (ESPN).
To the best of my knowledge, the stupid software does not allow you to work around this issue by limiting series recordings to certain time. It does let you (or should I say, force you) to limit by channel, i.e. every series recording is actually limited by channel, whether you like it or not.
My workaround (a pathetic one, but that's all that I could come up with) is to, for shows with unreliable New flag, allow recording of old ones, then go to scheduled recordings occasionally and weed out the ones you know are old. You may want to make sure that such series are low on the priorities list. It's easy to tell for which shows the New flag is not reliable - as you probably noticed, when looking at the show description, the first word will be "New", if the show is recognized as new.

For PedjaR's method "a" above, instead of deleting and reentering series, you should be able to edit the existing series entries (e.g., change the number of saved episodes from 3 to 5)--this action will move the edited entry to the top of the list.

Man, I'm dreading if (when) the time comes that Navigator replaces our SARA software. I don't want to be bothered with all these workarounds.

If Navigator is truely written in Java as rumors imply (does anyone have a link to a definitive document that states that it is Java), then the software would be modular, the very nature of Java encourages this type of design.

While I suppose that could be true, I seriously doubt it. There's just no point to write a JVM for a pretty much captive RTOS that lies under the IPG (Passport/SARA/Craptigator).

One COULD make some fairly interesting arguments that these IPGs need to be written in assembler or some such lower level code. Java has enough issues running in OS X/M$ OS environments, let alone under an RTOS like Aptiv.

Breaking News re TiVo/M-Card "Dongle":
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/11-26-2007/0004711019&EDATE=

Will be available from your local cable provider in 2nd Qtr of 2008.

Will support SDV (Switched Digital Video)....but apparently not PPV, interactive Guide, et. al.

Will be available for use with any unidirectional device (e.g. current "DCR" DTVs),
as long as they have a USB port and modify their firmware to actually control the "dongle".

Will indeed be supported in current TiVo Series 3 HD-DVR....

Boy, life gets weirder and weirder every day. I was under the impression that this dongle would come FROM TiVo, not the local cableco.

Coming FROM the cableco might make some sense if we're talking about cable card equipped TV sets. BUT I also notice that many HD sets currently do NOT offer models with cable card slots. Whereas some 05 and 06 models did have.

Now I for one think the cable card is really a pretty simple device, designed to do exactly one task... let the head end know who you are (as in what services you subscribe to). It IS the "security" mentioned in the 7/1/07 FCC mandated ban on "integrated security."

One could very well say that it is NOT in the cableco's best interest to have such devices work 100% reliably. If they did really work properly, then their DVR service fees would stop for many who elect TiVo. Zero upside revenue potential, considerable downside potential (no DVR service or deals that are bundled with DVR service... revenue goes down).

For PedjaR's method "a" above, instead of deleting and reentering series, you should be able to edit the existing series entries (e.g., change the number of saved episodes from 3 to 5)--this action will move the edited entry to the top of the list.

Clever! Now if only there were a quick and easy way to move a newly recorded series to the BOTTOM of the list.

Hmmm, interesting. But even if Time Warner has issues with Aptiv and their owners, why decide to come up with in-house software? Why not switch all areas to SARA instead of Navigator? SARS is a slightly stripped down, less graphic version of Passport and it has worked in the past. Navigator has yet to produce a reliable and stable DVR.


From what I recall (someone fill in the blanks here), Navigator is the remnants of what used to be TWCs big "Mystro" idea which fell apart for various reasons. Mystro was something which was started years and years ago. The delays with that resulted in Passport Echo and SARA developing such a big presence as the DVR market took off. Now TWC are trying to salvage the money they threw into Mystro by trying to resurrect it as something to just replace Passport and SARA and save some money in the process.

http://www.kleinand.com/mystro.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E2D71F3FF933A25750C0A9659C8B63

From what I recall (someone fill in the blanks here), Navigator is the remnants of what used to be TWCs big "Mystro" idea which fell apart for various reasons. Mystro was something which was started years and years ago. The delays with that resulted in Passport Echo and SARA developing such a big presence as the DVR market took off. Now TWC are trying to salvage the money they threw into Mystro by trying to resurrect it as something to just replace Passport and SARA and save some money in the process.

http://www.kleinand.com/mystro.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E2D71F3FF933A25750C0A9659C8B63

It makes sense why Navigator sucks so much. It's older software developed before Passport and SARA and it was not updated much. This is a good reason why TW's "new" DVR has less features than their older software.

Plus, I really wish we had a date when TW first started developing "MystroTV". Many of the bugs and glitches could be due to the fact this software was developed before the STB the software can be deployed on. Plus, that one ad talks about restarting shows from the last 48 hours, which sounds like an early idea of "StartOver", which was suppose to be Time Warner's big thing this year. Depending on the date of that webste, much of what was said was "far out" at the time, considering the SA8000 didn't come out until late 2003 and the head-end equipment had to be even more outdated before updates for HD and SDV.

This is a really great find! Another piece to the navigator puzzle and maybe why TW is not quick to dump an obviously bad UI. Although it sounds like TW did abandon it once before. I remember in 2003 they were announcing how they will have DVR soon. Something must have been wrong then, so they decided to go with Passport Echo.

It makes sense why Navigator sucks so much. It's older software developed before Passport and SARA and it was not updated much. This is a good reason why TW's "new" DVR has less features than their older software.

Plus, I really wish we had a date when TW first started developing "MystroTV".

Searching for Jim Chiddix and Mystro will usually drag up a lot of old articles. If this statement is anything to go by, Navigator has roots going back 6 years:

"From 2001 to 2004, Mr. Chiddix was president of Mystro TV, a business and technology development division of Time Warner Inc."
http://sec.edgar-online.com/2007/04/23/0001047469-07-003073/Section4.asp

Makes sense, and one of the reasons why it looks so freakin' crappy to boot...

Why not spend money on SARA.Get a good search engine and new skin and you have 90% of what TIVO has in a dvr as far as recording goes.It's dead reliable and a proven design. TWC is deep in with Scientic Atlanta as their largest customer.THey could tell SA what they wanted in SARA and let the SA team improve it.Seems it would be cheaper than Navigator.Then they could report it with some effort to Passport boxes. 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

From what I recall (someone fill in the blanks here), Navigator is the remnants of what used to be TWCs big "Mystro" idea which fell apart for various reasons. Mystro was something which was started years and years ago. The delays with that resulted in Passport Echo and SARA developing such a big presence as the DVR market took off. Now TWC are trying to salvage the money they threw into Mystro by trying to resurrect it as something to just replace Passport and SARA and save some money in the process.

http://www.kleinand.com/mystro.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D02E2D71F3FF933A25750C0A9659C8B63

What a great find!

This certainly could tie-in to my "alphabet theory." (See my post about this above.) In addition to that, a cable tech that I talked to said that Navigator in their tech labs is called Mystro! (It's full name is Mystro Digital Navigator or MDN.)

Jack

What a great find!

This certainly could tie-in to my "alphabet theory." (See my post about this above.) In addition to that, a cable tech that I talked to said that Navigator in their tech labs is called Mystro! (It's full name is Mystro Digital Navigator or MDN.)

Jack

From July:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11063588#post11063588

Amazing how retention can be a relative term.

Why not spend money on SARA.Get a good search engine and new skin and you have 90% of what TIVO has in a dvr as far as recording goes.It's dead reliable and a proven design. TWC is deep in with Scientic Atlanta as their largest customer.THey could tell SA what they wanted in SARA and let the SA team improve it.Seems it would be cheaper than Navigator.Then they could report it with some effort to Passport boxes. 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

My belief is that what you propose is exactly what they are doing. When you look at Navigator it has much (and I mean much) more in common with SARA than it does with Passport.

Navigator looks like a SARA extension.

By the way SARA = Scientific Atlanta Resident Application.

Some have called it a developemental platform for cablecos to expand on its potential. On their dollar. Very basic.

Not sure how this plays into all of the other boxes out there that cablecos use but it has never been accused of being the best of the best.

As mentioned more developmental in nature.

I'll say this about TWC and their new Mystro/Navigator software, it blows bigtime. I hate it, my wife hates it, we all hate it. You can't watch a recorded show and go back to the channel you were just on and back up and watch that channel without recording the channel you were on before watching the recorded show, the fast-forward doesn't back-up enough when you stop, the search is awful, it can't find a lot shows, the search button is gone when in the Guide that would bring up all future shows of the show that you have highlighted and their times at a touch of the C button. I used to be able to search for say the word "tractor" and it would bring up various farm shows that had tractor in their description not just in the title. It's just plain bad, stay away from it for as long as you can. My has had numerous freezes on recorded shows so bad I've had to unplug it once just to get it to do anything. I'm taking it back for this problem hopefully they don't all do this. I'm real close to going dish, I don't want to but......:(

Time Warner Cable Should Just Scrap Navigator All Together And Just Look To Buy Out Gemstar Tv Guide( I-guide/ Passport).

Time Warner Cable Should Just Scrap Navigator All Together And Just Look To Buy Out Gemstar Tv Guide( I-guide/ Passport).

I second your motion, and believe if Time Warner Cable wants to have a particular IPG across their markets they should use Passport for DCT/ Passport Echo in tandem with Passport on SA headend. Based on my hands on expierce Passport DCT is parsecs beyond I-guide.

Just to try to strike a balance here from the board,

Is there currently anything, I mean ANYTHING at all, as little as one thing that is better about Navigator than Passport? Even though it appears that Wisconsin users have had better success with Navigator when compared to nationwide markets, it appears that Navigator is not doing well at all on the nationwide level.

Could TWC decide to negotiate licensing extensions for Sara and Passport while they figure out exactly what to do with Navigator? Even more important, does anyone know when TWC's licensing rentals are set to expire with Passport and Sara, at which time they would have to either:

1.) Go with another software vendor

2.) Distribute Navigator nationwide

3.) Renew their rental agreements with Passport/Sara?

Knowing the answers to these future plans will help gage TWC's future.

Jack

Just to try to strike a balance here from the board,

Is there currently anything, I mean ANYTHING at all, as little as one thing that is better about Navigator than Passport? Even though it appears that Wisconsin users have had better success with Navigator when compared to nationwide markets, it appears that Navigator is not doing well at all on the nationwide level......

Jack

As I have posted previously there are things Passport does better and there are things Navigator does better.

What I like about Navigator:

- the guide is faster. It scrolls up and down the channel guide in hyper speed. Passport chugs along by channel.

- there are no "loading data" delays when moving out a few days in the guide.

- the "access menu" is more detailed than Passport. For example pressing the A button brings up the following subsets: Home, Free On Demand, Premium On Demand, News & Weather Now, Sports Now, Kids Now, HDTV Now. This is very good for example for HDTV users. When going into the HDTV Now option it shows all HD programming currently being broadcast across all HD channels. With Passport there is no HDTV subset. The Passport approach of pressing the B button to get to some of this data has always been cumbersome to me - and rarely used as a result.

- the "find shows" option is more detailed. The "find shows" subsets are the following: High Definition, Lifestyles, Movies, Music, News, On Demand, Series, Sports, Special Interests, Action/Adventure, Kids/Family, Comedy, Drama. Again using High Definition as an example I can then drill down High Definition content even more to the following subsets: All High Definition, Action/Adventure. Kids/Family, Comedy, Classics, Drama, Education, International, Movies, Music, News, On Demand, Reality, Science Fiction, Shopping, Sports, Special Interests, Adults Only. Why is this good? Well with Passport if I wanted to set up future recordings of HD movies for example all I could do was scroll through the guide looking at different HD channels and pick off movies to record. With Navigator I can have all HD movies that are scheduled over the next seven days organized in a list form in alphabetical order - across all HD channels. I can quickly find out that "Goodfellas" in HD will be playing on A&E HD three times over the next seven days. I can then schedule a recording if I choose. It is very easy to find out all of the HD movies scheduled for broadcast across all HD channels over the next seven days. With Passport I found myself scrolling through the guide to find out what may be coming up or what new movies were going to be shown. I'd only know about "Goodfellas" if I stumbled on it in the guide or "guessed" it might be coming up and did a search for its broadcast times.

- with Navigator the guide is populated over the entire seven days. With Passport it only populates out a few days. So with Navigator when you do a search it is for the entire guide period. With Passport the search only goes out a few days - unless you manually "load the guide data" by scrolling out seven days and going through a few "loading data" delays. Only then will Passport search the entire populated grid. That's a hassle in my mind and is a perpetual exercise. Every hour that passes means the Passport guide becomes less populated until you go through the manual "loading data" process again. This is very important when considering my previous example - all High Definition Movies over the next seven days.

- when searching Navigator includes On Demand content in its search results. Both Free and Premium. Using my HDTV example when I'm in "find shows" and I have a list of all HD movies it includes On Demand. The movie "300" is listed. I can at this point play the movie - i.e. purchase it. I don't have to exit the "find shows" list and go to the HD On Demand channel (channel 500 in my case) to purchase the movie. It works like this for Free On Demand as well. You don't have to exit out and go to the On Demand channel to begin watching the content. This On Demand integration eliminates the need to scroll through and enter each of the On Demand channels to see "what's there". I think anybody who scrolls through Free On Demand channels knows what I'm talking about. There is ALOT of On Demand content that is now an integral part of the "list" or "search" process. Pretty slick actually. This is a huge step forward as it relates to the U/I experience.

- I like the "power on" with numeric key being pressed. This is important if scheduling recordings using a DVD recorder with an IR Blaster. Passport doesn't offer this feature (SARA does).

There's a lot more. But as I said Passport does some things better than Navigator and Navigator does some things better than Passport.

The key is to have a stable box. Without a stable box nothing will work well. With a stable box Navigator is quite good - although different than Passport.

It seems TWC with Navigator has taken the best of PASSPORT and the best od SARA and tried to merge them into one guide.If the Navigator guide becomes stable that would be great.Another question I have is-how do the recording options on Navigator compare to Sara and Passport? Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Another question-Does the keyboard in Navigator do both title and keyword?

The key is to have a stable box. Without a stable box nothing will work well. With a stable box Navigator is quite good - although different than Passport.

Well that DOES seem to be the rub. My guess is about 90% of us care not a bit about some feature that may be "better" if a STB w/Craptigator fails in so many ways at the most basic of functions we expect (i.e. that we KNOW we get from Passport/SARA).

Even so, it IS useful for someone to stick up for it every now and then, even though it sure seems a LONG ways off from performing essential and very basic functions. STILL, maybe one issue we tend to overlook is if we are talking about DVR or not. It may very well be considered "better" if there's no recording involved, but I suspect the vast majority of members here are DVRers.

Even so, it IS useful for someone to stick up for it every now and then, even though it sure seems a LONG ways off from performing essential and very basic functions. STILL, maybe one issue we tend to overlook is if we are talking about DVR or not. It may very well be considered "better" if there's no recording involved, but I suspect the vast majority of members here are DVRers.

I'm a DVR user as well. Again with a stable box this Navigator has the potential to rock - IMHO. There seems to be a lot of potential. I'm a TWC subscriber until Dec 7th so I won't get the chance to see it evolve.

Re: Navigator versus Passport

I've made peace with Navigator. I haven't missed any shows, have about 16 series recordings scheduled. I haven't had any problems with it recording reruns when I only want new because I just delete them. With the writers strike, there'll be nothing to watch.

I still have issues with sound drop outs on DVR playback, however I've discovered I can correct it by turning off the box from remote, turning it back on again (instead of reboot) ...this reduced the sound issues from major pain to minor annoyance. I reboot the box a few times a week as I go to bed, this has pretty much eliminated freezes and flaky-ness...haven't got around to putting a timer on the outlet to do it automatically.

The menus remain fast and the box has been stable. I do get a warning prompt if there's a recording schedule conflict while I'm watching a show.

So while I'm by no means satisfied (I think Tivo is more elegant, stable solution) its not keeping me up nights like it did when I first got it. With all the complaining I did with TWC, I'm still enjoying all the free stuff and discounts they offered...

I was close to going DirectTV but I got an eyeball of the compressed crap they call HD and wasn't impressed. At least if I see compression artifacts on TWC I know its from the network feed. All those jaggies during fast movement in a football game is pathetic. How could people put up with that? Just awful.

Still hoping Tivo and TWC strike a deal.

Another question-Does the keyboard in Navigator do both title and keyword?

Title. And it is weak. For example the only way to find "Star Trek" is to search 'Star". "Trek" will get you nowhere - well it will get you somewhere in the T's.

Re: Navigator versus Passport

I've made peace with Navigator. I haven't missed any shows, have about 16 series recordings scheduled. I haven't had any problems with it recording reruns when I only want new because I just delete them. With the writers strike, there'll be nothing to watch.

I still have issues with sound drop outs on DVR playback, however I've discovered I can correct it by turning off the box from remote, turning it back on again (instead of reboot) ...this reduced the sound issues from major pain to minor annoyance. I reboot the box a few times a week as I go to bed, this has pretty much eliminated freezes and flaky-ness...haven't got around to putting a timer on the outlet to do it automatically.

The menus remain fast and the box has been stable. I do get a warning prompt if there's a recording schedule conflict while I'm watching a show.

So while I'm by no means satisfied (I think Tivo is more elegant, stable solution) its not keeping me up nights like it did when I first got it. With all the complaining I did with TWC, I'm still enjoying all the free stuff and discounts they offered...

I was close to going DirectTV but I got an eyeball of the compressed crap they call HD and wasn't impressed. At least if I see compression artifacts on TWC I know its from the network feed. All those jaggies during fast movement in a football game is pathetic. How could people put up with that? Just awful.

Still hoping Tivo and TWC strike a deal.

Check to see if this "undocumented feature" works in your neck of the woods.

I subscribe to HBO and Showtime. So I have access to the On Demand HBO and Showtime channels. I do not subscribe to Cinemax and TMC so I do not have access to the Cinemax and TMC ON Demand channels (as examples - there are others). Unless I am in the "Find Shows" menu. Then I have access to all On Demand programming. Meaning if something is listed as On Demand on Cinemax in the "Find Shows" list it plays fine. If I go directly to the Cinemax On Demand channel I get the "To receive this channel call customer care" screen.

Could be a local thing. I guess all Navigator bugs are not necessarily a bad thing. :eek:

Check to see if this "undocumented feature" works in your neck of the woods.

I subscribe to HBO and Showtime. So I have access to the On Demand HBO and Showtime channels. I do not subscribe to Cinemax and TMC so I do not have access to the Cinemax and TMC ON Demand channels (as examples - there are others). Unless I am in the "Find Shows" menu. Then I have access to all On Demand programming. Meaning if something is listed as On Demand on Cinemax in the "Find Shows" list it plays fine. If I go directly to the Cinemax On Demand channel I get the "To receive this channel call customer care" screen.

Could be a local thing. I guess all Navigator bugs are not necessarily a bad thing. :eek:

Sounds cool Nextoo! (Wow, I wish I had Navigator now!!!) Holy SH*T, I said that???!!! Actually, TWC is making all of their premium On Demand Channels Free as long as you subscribe to the base channel as of December 1st. You might have a happy little glitch in the transition. See if you still can do this in about a week.

Jack

Sounds cool Nextoo! (Wow, I wish I had Navigator now!!!) Holy SH*T, I said that???!!! Actually, TWC is making all of their premium On Demand Channels Free as long as you subscribe to the base channel as of December 1st. You might have a happy little glitch in the transition. See if you still can do this in about a week.

Jack

Not sure if it is a glitch or not. Or if it has something to do with how the "Find Shows" feature in Navigator is supposed to work - or not supposed to work.

I don't quite understand what you mean about how Premium On Demand channels are free if you subscribe to the base channel. In my case I have always had access to the On Demand channel if I subscribed to the base channel. Meaning if I subscribe to HBO then i have access to the HBO On Demand channel.

Are you saying the the TWC promotion that you mention means that if I subscribe to HBO I also have access to Cinemax and TMC On Demand as well?
It's not that way with my SA8000 standard definition box that I also have. Not quite sure what you mean.

Here's something else I like about Navigator over Passport.

There are multiple paths to the keyboard search and you can use keyboard search within subsets. Meaning let's say I want a list of all movies scheduled across the entire seven day grid/guide. That's simple enough with the remote:

press B -> Category -> Movies -> All Movies

So now there is a rather daunting list of all movies scheduled over the next seven days. Hundreds of movies that also includes all On Demand movies. At this point you have the option to pull up the keyboard to drill down into the list. With Passport the keyboard search has only one function and appears in only one place in the U/I. With Navigator there are multiple opportunities to use a keyboard search to drill down into subset lists. For example all movies that start with "T"

Not sure if it is a glitch or not. Or if it has something to do with how the "Find Shows" feature in Navigator is supposed to work - or not supposed to work.

I don't quite understand what you mean about how Premium On Demand channels are free if you subscribe to the base channel. In my case I have always had access to the On Demand channel if I subscribed to the base channel. Meaning if I subscribe to HBO then i have access to the HBO On Demand channel.

Are you saying the the TWC promotion that you mention means that if I subscribe to HBO I also have access to Cinemax and TMC On Demand as well?
It's not that way with my SA8000 standard definition box that I also have. Not quite sure what you mean.

Nextoo,

Where I live they used to charge $6.95/mo for Premium On Demand. So, let's say you had HBO and Showtime. If you paid the added $6.95/mo using this example, you would get the Premium On Demand Service of HBO and Showtime. If you would later subscribe to Cinamex, you would also get Cinamax on Demand. (Paying the $6.95/mo automatically gives you access to any premium On Demand channel that you subscribe to.

It's worked like this:

HBO Subscription= $10/mo (package deal) $6.95 for optional Premium On Demand

Showtime= $5.00/mo

Those are my two premium channels. I would have to pay an additional $6.95 added to my subscription to get Premium On Demand for BOTH HBO and Showtime....... (paying the $6.95 once, activates ALL On Demand equivalent channels of the premium stations you subscribe to until December 1st.)

In December, they are dropping the $6.95/mo charge for Premium On Demand. Meaning that any premium channel you subscribe to, you will now get the On Demand equivalent of that channel without paying the extra $6.95 for On Demand. (You just have to subscribe to the premium channel(s) of your choice and than you automatically get the On Demand equivalent of that channel for free.) The On Demand channel will be a BONUS if you already subscribe to the original premium channel.

If you have always had free Premium On Demand, you might be under a grandfather claused billing structure.

Jack

Just when I thought things were going well with my 8300HDC navigator box, I started getting the "channel not available" in my recording log and scheduled series recordings were not being recorded. I unplugged power and went through a 30 minute boot. So far so good as of now, but I've had very mixed feelings over this box. I pay to keep my old SD DVR connected to another TV to record the shows that I worry the 8300HDC will miss and it still occasionally does. I hope TWC gets the problems worked out quickly... and they get SDV up and running and offer me more HD programming!

......If you have always had free Premium On Demand, you might be under a grandfather claused billing structure.

Jack

Not sure. But I have never had an addition charge for ON Demand access for a premium channel I've subscribed to.

Actually I'd like to see all premiums go On Demand exclusive. Imagine the bandwidth it would free up. Right now I have 14 HBO channels and 16 Showtime channels. All eating up bandwidth. If they would just put all of the content offerings On Demand it would be a huge gain. Maybe have a channel or two for live events.

I'm not sure if there is really a need for east coast and west coast feeds etc anymore. With all of the content On Demand somebody wouldn't have to begin their viewing based on the scheduled grid.

Just when I thought things were going well with my 8300HDC navigator box, I started getting the "channel not available" in my recording log and scheduled series recordings were not being recorded. I unplugged power and went through a 30 minute boot. So far so good as of now, but I've had very mixed feelings over this box. I pay to keep my old SD DVR connected to another TV to record the shows that I worry the 8300HDC will miss and it still occasionally does. I hope TWC gets the problems worked out quickly... and they get SDV up and running and offer me more HD programming!

30 minutes to reboot sounds a bit excessive. I've timed the reboot on my box to be under 5 minutes. 30 minutes to boot the box back up may be an indication of the quality of your cableco infrastructure. Not sure.

You can reboot the box without unplugging it. Press vol- vol+ and the info buttons on the front of the box and this should begin the reboot process.

My 8300HDC started acting up tonight so I decided to unplug it instead of just rebooting (since it had rebooted on it's own just 90 minutes earlier).

On reboot I noticed it stayed on status L-13 a while and then at some point it changed to E-13. I figured E stood for Error so I rebooted it again in frustration. Then I Googled E-13 and some posts indicated it might be an update being pushed. Anyone else see this?

My 8300HDC started acting up tonight so I decided to unplug it instead of just rebooting (since it had rebooted on it's own just 90 minutes earlier).

On reboot I noticed it stayed on status L-13 a while and then at some point it changed to E-13. I figured E stood for Error so I rebooted it again in frustration. Then I Googled E-13 and some posts indicated it might be an update being pushed. Anyone else see this?

Mine did that exact same thing, stuck at E-13 for a long time. Took 30 minutes to reboot. Normally a reboot takes 5 minutes or so. I complained to TWC via e-mail. Last night my box rebooted twice on its own. I'm hoping they get these bugs worked out soon.

Has anyone on SARA (know some from Brighthouse have)but TWC sara been switched to Navigator yet.I heard from a sometimes reliable source it will start after Jan..30 2008 arround here SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC.

Has anyone on SARA (know some from Brighthouse have)but TWC sara been switched to Navigator yet.I heard from a sometimes reliable source it will start after Jan..30 2008 arround here SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC.

Nothing yet. The only thing I was told by a contact within TWC Syracuse was "1st quarter of 2008". I won't have any issue going to Navigator IF they deploy a fully functional and reliable version. Right now, I'm perfectly satisfied with the SARA version we have.

I agree .The Sara version we have now is a stable relable system.If Navigator is as stable as Sara no problem .If not i willl be on the phone yelling.

Still hoping Tivo and TWC strike a deal.

Ah, a glimmer of hope (recordings and series recordings work as expected) for those of us who haven't be craptigatored just yet.

You do know TiVo & Comcast cut a deal already? News reports today indicate those customers are in for an addition $3/month fee. Same articles indicate Comcast customers, with the new TiVo fee, will be paying about $20/month for DVR service. Which seems to indicate TWC charges a lot less... something I find hard to believe (more than likely, TWC charges more for some other service)!

Title. And it is weak. For example the only way to find "Star Trek" is to search 'Star". "Trek" will get you nowhere - well it will get you somewhere in the T's.

Truth be told, Passport in TWC-NYC suffers from the same limitation.

Sounds cool Nextoo! (Wow, I wish I had Navigator now!!!) Holy SH*T, I said that???!!! Actually, TWC is making all of their premium On Demand Channels Free as long as you subscribe to the base channel as of December 1st. You might have a happy little glitch in the transition. See if you still can do this in about a week.

Jack

Interesting. Here (TWC-NYC) you have to have 2 or more premiums to get the respective OnDemand for free. AND there is no Starz OnDemand at all for any price. I do HBO, SHO and Starz and the only OnDemands are HBO & SHO. 4:3 SD so not at all useful (except for Curb, that show seems still to be done ion 4:3 SD).

Has anyone on SARA (know some from Brighthouse have)but TWC sara been switched to Navigator yet.I heard from a sometimes reliable source it will start after Jan..30 2008 arround here SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC.

I've yet to read someone ON SARA that got changed to Craptigator. TWC has said many times that current Passport users would get it first as SARA CAN do SDV right now while Passport can not (the version TWC uses).

My 8300HDC started acting up tonight so I decided to unplug it instead of just rebooting (since it had rebooted on it's own just 90 minutes earlier).

On reboot I noticed it stayed on status L-13 a while and then at some point it changed to E-13. I figured E stood for Error so I rebooted it again in frustration. Then I Googled E-13 and some posts indicated it might be an update being pushed. Anyone else see this?i noticed an E-13 this morning when i woke up. it appeared to be locked up. i unplugged it and plugged it back in. seemed to start booting up like normal. i was running late for work and didnt have time to sit there and watch to make sure it did though. i have TWC in the KC area.

30 minutes to reboot sounds a bit excessive. I've timed the reboot on my box to be under 5 minutes. 30 minutes to boot the box back up may be an indication of the quality of your cableco infrastructure. Not sure.

You can reboot the box without unplugging it. Press vol- vol+ and the info buttons on the front of the box and this should begin the reboot process.

I am guessing that if a cold boot (which means that it was rebooted by a power loss) costs 30 minutes and a warm reboot (which means that it executed a software command to reboot) costs less than five minutes, then the 25 minutes must be the box running a disk check similar to Scandisk on Windows 98/ME or fsck on Unix or Linux. (No, I am not trying to hide curse words. The name "fsck" stands for file system consistency check or file system check. I would have called it chkfs if I had to come up with a ridiculously shortened name if I was the programmer who wrote the original version of fsck for Unix.)

On my Passport box, I tell it to let the hard drive spin down upon power down somewhere in the options. That way, I do not fear this kind of file system problem caused by the hard disk recording when the power fails as much as if I left the hard disk running and recording when I tell the box to go to standby. Does anyone know of a similar option in Navigator to shut down the disk when the box goes to standby so that the box does not have to run the file system checker when it reboots from a power failure?

I am guessing that if a cold boot (which means that it was rebooted by a power loss) costs 30 minutes and a warm reboot (which means that it executed a software command to reboot) costs less than five minutes, then the 25 minutes must be the box running a disk check similar to Scandisk on Windows 98/ME or fsck on Unix or Linux.Before this gets out of hand, I believe the 30-minute cold boot was an anomaly. I haven't timed it, but the two times I've cold booted took about the same amount of time as a warm (three-finger) boot; somewhere between 5 and 10 minutes. I have noticed a significant amount of activity (perhaps 10 seconds) on the external drive very early in the boot process while still in the OCAP phase. But this activity occurs for all boots, warm or cold.

The "Head Mousketeer" is peeved re VOD programs being impossible to find via pathetic IPG search techniques:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0016/t.9974.html
And he's told TWC & COMCAST that it has to get fixed....

The "Head Mousketeer" is peeved re VOD programs being impossible to find via pathetic IPG search techniques:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0016/t.9974.html
And he's told TWC & COMCAST that it has to get fixed....

Believe it or not Navigator fixes this. I posted previously that Navigator includes all On Demand content when searching. It also has an On Demand subset. This shows all On Demand content in a organized list alphabetically across all On Demand channels. There is no longer a need to go into each On Demand channel to see what is there as far as content is concerned.

You can further drill down into the On Demand list to the following categories - All On Demand, Animated, Action/Adventure, Kids/Family, Comedy, Classics, Drama, High Definition, Holiday, International, Movies, Music, Romance, Science Fiction, Sports, Suspense, Adults Only. And within each of these subset lists you can pull up the keyboard and do a title search. Again all of these subsets or "lists" contain content for all On Demand channels alphabetically. It is great and actually changes the way you use a typical cableco guide.

Also when doing a general search across all content On Demand content is included in the search results.

Significantly better than my Passport box. Once somebody takes the time to understand how Navigator approaches this it is feature that somebody would never want to give up.

i noticed an E-13 this morning when i woke up. it appeared to be locked up. i unplugged it and plugged it back in. seemed to start booting up like normal. i was running late for work and didnt have time to sit there and watch to make sure it did though. i have TWC in the KC area.
yeah, so it was rebooted when i got home. i rebooted it again for giggles and grins to make sure all was well. i could've swore that after "boot" is displayed it says "OCAP" before it gets the the "L-13" countdown; however now its "A L t". i never see ocap displayed.

Believe it or not Navigator fixes this. I posted previously that Navigator includes all On Demand content when searching. It also has an On Demand subset. This shows all On Demand content in a organized list alphabetically across all On Demand channels. There is no longer a need to go into each On Demand channel to see what is there as far as content is concerned.

You can further drill down into the On Demand list to the following categories - All On Demand, Animated, Action/Adventure, Kids/Family, Comedy, Classics, Drama, High Definition, Holiday, International, Movies, Music, Romance, Science Fiction, Sports, Suspense, Adults Only. And within each of these subset lists you can pull up the keyboard and do a title search. Again all of these subsets or "lists" contain content for all On Demand channels alphabetically. It is great and actually changes the way you use a typical cableco guide.

Also when doing a general search across all content On Demand content is included in the search results.

Significantly better than my Passport box. Once somebody takes the time to understand how Navigator approaches this it is feature that somebody would never want to give up.

Yeah, but you fail to mention that it takes 2-3 seconds just to get from letter to letter on Navigator, it is such a joke, and totally worthless...

Yeah, but you fail to mention that it takes 2-3 seconds just to get from letter to letter on Navigator, it is such a joke, and totally worthless...

I didn't mention it because it is not the case with my box. Are you saying that all Navigator boxes have lag issues when pressing keys? I don't believe that is the case.

I've posted on more than one occasion that in order for Navigator to work well it has to be on a stable box. I've also posted that I don't expect my experiences to be those of all other users.

But it seems when somebody has a problem there is a significant amount of license taken. Meaning if somebody has a problem then all users are having the same problem. That's not the case.

I think it is one of the reasons why this thread has been so pitiful. A bunch of self centered narcissistic whiners that are definitely products of the me generation. And what is astounding is in many cases don't even use the product.

If you are having a problem and it isn't fixed then cancel your service. That's what I did. My last day with TWC is December 7th. Whining on here like a 3 year old is a waste of time and bandwidth. I'm leaving TWC for other reasons besides Navigator. But I made a decision. I posted once what the problem was and didn't think it was necessary cry like a baby everyday.

But in the mean time Navigator is what I use. And in my case I can say that it has worked well. And having been a Passport user for years I can say that Navigator has a lot to offer. Passport and SARA are really the dregs of the DVR experience. If TWC can fix the stability issues for users then I would never look back.

Originally Posted by slickshoes
Yeah, but you fail to mention that it takes 2-3 seconds just to get from letter to letter on Navigator, it is such a joke, and totally worthless...


I didn't mention it because it is not the case with my box. Are you saying that all Navigator boxes have lag issues when pressing keys? I don't believe that is the case.


It's not normally 2-3 seconds, but it is definitely NOT speedy. I have seen 2-3 second delays on my box, it's not the norm but it DOES happen.

nextoo I DO appreciate your indicating that someday we may actually like and prefer this new software. It IS nice to have something to temper all the posts about shows being missed, not recording, stopping in the middle etc. Hoe it deals with OnDemand does make it more interesting than Passport, despite the fact that OnDemand still has a habit of failing to deliver the movie you want to see NOW.

As for canceling your service, you have an alternative. Some of us do not. Despite living in one of the largest media markets in the country, if I DID "cancel" that would mean the ONLY thing I can do with my TV is watch DVDs. So it really isn't all that simple.

Of course, "stable" may mean different things to different folks. About the only thing I ascribe to hardware is the fact that the box needs to warm up for 3-5 minutes before the remote really functions. Until that time, I can rarely get it to work. How about standing 3 feet into front of the 8300, pointing the business end of the remote about 2-3 feet in front of the box and still having button presses not recognized?

nextoo I DO appreciate your indicating that someday we may actually like and prefer this new software. It IS nice to have something to temper all the posts about shows being missed, not recording, stopping in the middle etc. Hoe it deals with OnDemand does make it more interesting than Passport, despite the fact that OnDemand still has a habit of failing to deliver the movie you want to see NOW.

As for canceling your service, you have an alternative. Some of us do not. Despite living in one of the largest media markets in the country, if I DID "cancel" that would mean the ONLY thing I can do with my TV is watch DVDs. So it really isn't all that simple.

Of course, "stable" may mean different things to different folks. About the only thing I ascribe to hardware is the fact that the box needs to warm up for 3-5 minutes before the remote really functions. Until that time, I can rarely get it to work. How about standing 3 feet into front of the 8300, pointing the business end of the remote about 2-3 feet in front of the box and still having button presses not recognized?

Riverside Guy,

I was wondering when you say your box is slow for 2-3 minutes, do you mean when you are using the IPG/scrolling or any button pressing on the remote? What brand of remote do you have and how old is the remote?

Does it work well (Well, at least within Navigator's limits) after those 2-3 minutes? Have you tried other things like fresh battery replacements and always trying to point the remote at the "eye" of the device you are controlling? My Synergy remote can shoot from clear across the room, but for the TV to turn off along with the DVR, you have to point my remote directly at the remote sensor of the TV.

The "warm up" period seems strange to me. (Well, with Navigator, NOTHING is strange!) Have you also had different Navigator boxes that do the same thing? If yes, maybe the remote itself is acting funny? I am also assuming that NONE of these problems happened before you got Navigator?

Jack

Riverside Guy,

I was wondering when you say your box is slow for 2-3 minutes, do you mean when you are using the IPG/scrolling or any button pressing on the remote? What brand of remote do you have and how old is the remote?

Does it work well (Well, at least within Navigator's limits) after those 2-3 minutes? Have you tried other things like fresh battery replacements and always trying to point the remote at the "eye" of the device you are controlling? My Synergy remote can shoot from clear across the room, but for the TV to turn off along with the DVR, you have to point my remote directly at the remote sensor of the TV.

The "warm up" period seems strange to me. (Well, with Navigator, NOTHING is strange!) Have you also had different Navigator boxes that do the same thing? If yes, maybe the remote itself is acting funny? I am also assuming that NONE of these problems happened before you got Navigator?

Jack

It's a Passport box.

Whoa Nextoo, no need to get all defensive there...no where in my post did I say that everyone has the delay, this was just my experience with the Crapigator box I had, which I promptly exchanged 3 weeks later for a Passport box again. And like Satch said, not all of us have the luxury like you to cancel, I had a Dish contractor come out and of course they have to drill through the outside wall, my landlord won't go for that, so more power to you. I echo the sentiments of most of the people in this thread when I say that Crapigator needs to be shelved permanently and AOL with their multi billions need to fork out some dough for a great piece of hardware and software a la Verizon and Dish...

Whoa Nextoo, no need to get all defensive there...no where in my post did I say that everyone has the delay, this was just my experience with the Crapigator box I had, which I promptly exchanged 3 weeks later for a Passport box again. And like Satch said, not all of us have the luxury like you to cancel, I had a Dish contractor come out and of course they have to drill through the outside wall, my landlord won't go for that, so more power to you. I echo the sentiments of most of the people in this thread when I say that Crapigator needs to be shelved permanently and AOL with their multi billions need to fork out some dough for a great piece of hardware and software a la Verizon and Dish...

Sorry about that. The post does read like it was directed to you in its entirety. It wasn't. The majority was directed more to the thread in general.

You posted this:

Yeah, but you fail to mention that it takes 2-3 seconds just to get from letter to letter on Navigator, it is such a joke, and totally worthless...

And my response was this:

I didn't mention it because it is not the case with my box. Are you saying that all Navigator boxes have lag issues when pressing keys? I don't believe that is the case.

And I'll pretty much stick by that.

There are dozens if not hundreds of posts in the Passport and SARA threads that mimic just about every problem posted in the Navigator thread. Loss of scheduled recordings, spontaneous reboots, slow response, channel loss and the list goes on. But it seems only in this thread if somebody has a problem then all users are assumed to be having the same problem. That was my point.

Just look at the Tivo threads over at Tivo Community Forums. If somebody is having a problem with dropped channels I don't believe it is assumed that all Tivo users are having the same problem. Here it is.

Let me chime in 2 cents worth here (and this applies in general, not to Navigator). Nextoo has touched in these last couple of posts on something very important when it comes to problems on cable systems. And that is that EVERY cable system is different. A particular version of software may work perfectly fine on system A, yet run into conflicts, and other problems on system B. So what may be true on system B just is not necessarily true on system A.

Knowledge of this is what drives me "up the wall" when folks refuse to put their location (City & State) in their profile - because what you experience may have an awful lot to do with were you are. Better yet, also include your software version in your signature. That way whenever you make ANY statement, the rest of us have some context with which to more fully understand what you may be saying. ;)

Tonight, I am DONE with Navigator! Last night during the "Jay Leno" show, the box froze up on NBC-HD. A few minutes later the audio came back on and the picture stayed frozen. About a minute later, the bo shut off and rebooted. That took about 5-7 minutes. It worked OK after that.

Fast forward to this evening. As I am flipping through the channels, it gets "hung up" on CBS-HD. It doesn't matter what channel I change to, the picture on the screen is still CBS-HD. I tried turning off the box and the picture stays on and the channel still changes. The vol+/-, info reboot doesn't work. I have left it plugged in JIC I call tomorrow to tell what happened. But this time I am sriously taking it back. I've had the same Crapigator box since August(that is about the longest a Crapigator box has lasted) and it's sucked since day one. Then in this moth's bill I see DVR service is going from $5.95 to $6.95 a month. That plus the box rental fee ends up making this POS cost about $15 a month. $15 for something that doesn't work right. I've had it with the UI in general as well as the "Channel Not Available" bug and the constant audio dropouts. I've even noticed that when I DVR-back in a show, the audio drops out(maybe a hard drive issue?)

THIS is the straw that broke the camel's back. Come next week when I have tiem, it's back to the local TW office where I'll make sure to report the horrors of Navigator and DEMAND a 8300HD with PASSPORT! It's gotta be the 8300HD because the 8000HD doesn't have HDMI.

Interestingly enough, I hooked up the Passport SD box from my bedroom and not only does it work, the box only took about a minute to load. THe channels change faster and the guide is better and moves faster.

Time Warner Cable Northeast Ohio/Akron System

Currently using Navigator on a 8300HDC
Versions:
BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
Monitor Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
ODN Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26

Tonight, I am DONE with Navigator! Last night during the "Jay Leno" show, the box froze up on NBC-HD. A few minutes later the audio came back on and the picture stayed frozen. About a minute later, the bo shut off and rebooted. That took about 5-7 minutes. It worked OK after that.

Fast forward to this evening. As I am flipping through the channels, it gets "hung up" on CBS-HD. It doesn't matter what channel I change to, the picture on the screen is still CBS-HD. I tried turning off the box and the picture stays on and the channel still changes. The vol+/-, info reboot doesn't work. I have left it plugged in JIC I call tomorrow to tell what happened. But this time I am sriously taking it back. I've had the same Crapigator box since August(that is about the longest a Crapigator box has lasted) and it's sucked since day one. Then in this moth's bill I see DVR service is going from $5.95 to $6.95 a month. That plus the box rental fee ends up making this POS cost about $15 a month. $15 for something that doesn't work right. I've had it with the UI in general as well as the "Channel Not Available" bug and the constant audio dropouts. I've even noticed that when I DVR-back in a show, the audio drops out(maybe a hard drive issue?)

THIS is the straw that broke the camel's back. Come next week when I have tiem, it's back to the local TW office where I'll make sure to report the horrors of Navigator and DEMAND a 8300HD with PASSPORT! It's gotta be the 8300HD because the 8000HD doesn't have HDMI.

Interestingly enough, I hooked up the Passport SD box from my bedroom and not only does it work, the box only took about a minute to load. THe channels change faster and the guide is better and moves faster.

Time Warner Cable Northeast Ohio/Akron System

Currently using Navigator on a 8300HDC
Versions:
BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
Monitor Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
ODN Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26

Well you are definately entitled to your rant. Mine would have probably been more severe.

But I did notice a couple of interesting points. Most specifically HDMI. Besides the usual "cablecard isn't calling home properly" I wonder if HDMI comes into play as well. I only mention this because my setup has been component to an HD LCD TV and coax optical out of the SA8300HDC. No HDMI. Not sure but maybe the audio drops may have something to do with HDMI. As well as HDMI handshake issues that have been reported in general with video as well.

Currently using Navigator on a 8300HDC
Versions:
BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
Monitor Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
ODN Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26

Mine is this:
Versions:
BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
Monitor Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
ODN Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29

It also appears that your neck of the woods may be a bit behind the curve. Perhaps improvements are on the way.

From what I've experienced, the audio dropouts have happened across the borad. I use the digital audio out to connected to my receiver as the main audio source. I've tried using the regular stereo outputs to the receiver and TV as well as the coaxial cable out and the audio dropouts still happened. As I think about it, it doesn't seem to be as much of a hard drive problem. Maybe it's a software problem. When the box is "told" to record, there may be some kind of glitch between the hardware and software.

Mine is this:
Versions:
BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
Monitor Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
ODN Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29

It also appears that your neck of the woods may be a bit behind the curve. Perhaps improvements are on the way.

For awhile I thought ALL of our boxes were going to be "Navigatorized" since we have had a channel called "Navigator Info" since this March. About a week or two back, I noticed the Navigator channel is gone and VOD previews are on instead. I'm getting the feeling that Navigator is being abandoned in our area and the "unlucky" people with Navigator will be stuck with it.

For those of you who are still having Navigator horror stories, you should speak to your division office manager. (The more people that do this IMO, the greater likelihood that a nationwide download can be aborted.) All respect to Nextoo and those divisions who have had success with Navigator, but they sure seem to be few and far between. I don't EVER recall anywhere near these types of issues when digital cable first came out. I'm not saying that Passport didn't have some bugs, I am sure that it did or even when Passport Echo was installed on the SA 8000 DVR boxes. However, I can't recall anywhere near all these problems with the Passport system. I had a SIX YEAR old Pioneer non DVR box that worked like a champ and still worked when I upgraded to DVR service. This equipment and software should last for 3-5 years. My analog cable box lasted for 11 years. (no joke.)

When people are paying $70-$225 per month they expect the products and services to work as expected. As Nextoo said, there are MANY FACTORS that can differentiate how well a cable box/DVR integrates with its environment. Most people aren't tech savvy. They don't want scientific reasons why something doesn't work, they just want the product to work and be reliable. We have seen Navigator deployed in parts of Nebraska, California, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, and Wisconsin. (Any other areas, feel free to mention.) Wisconsin seems to have had the best success. But a 1/6 track record is not very good for a product where far too many other states have had issues after a year in the field. For the money being charged, this product should be at a 90% reliability rate for all that people have gone through. How can TWC believe that they are saving money with this product with so many box returns? Something is very very wrong here. The kind of problems that are being discussed on a global level with Navigator should be very infrequent occurrences, such as a freeze up or a reboot once every 3 MONTHS. A series recording might mess up very rarely if Navigator was a reliable product across markets. A show not recording with such alarming regularity is reprehensible and irresponsible business conduct on many TWC systems for a product that from a national level was not properly tested.

As an over fifteen year subscriber to TWC, I have enjoyed their services. While customer service has fallen off in the last several years they do provide amazing Internet service and Digital Phone, as well as an excellent IPG in Passport. From a global standpoint, what TWC should do is get an extension for Passport/Sara licensing and pay for the upgrades to Passport and Sara systems. Either shelf Navigator for good, or get some quality outside program developers to take responsibility for the project who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Have those people work on Navigator for another year in the labs. Don't release it until this independent programing team has put it through proper design and testing. If after another year, if Navigator is still a national problem, abandon the project altogether, and stick with the Passport and Sara updates accordingly.

Jack

For those of you who are still having Navigator horror stories, you should speak to your division office manager. (The more people that do this IMO, the greater likelihood that a nationwide download can be aborted.) All respect to Nextoo and those divisions who have had success with Navigator, but they sure seem to be few and far between. I don't EVER recall anywhere near these types of issues when digital cable first came out. I'm not saying that Passport didn't have some bugs, I am sure that it did or even when Passport Echo was installed on the SA 8000 DVR boxes. However, I can't recall anywhere near all these problems with the Passport system. I had a SIX YEAR old Pioneer non DVR box that worked like a champ and still worked when I upgraded to DVR service. This equipment and software should last for 3-5 years. My analog cable box lasted for 11 years. (no joke.)

When people are paying $70-$225 per month they expect the products and services to work as expected. As Nextoo said, there are MANY FACTORS that can differentiate how well a cable box/DVR integrates with its environment. Most people aren't tech savvy. They don't want scientific reasons why something doesn't work, they just want the product to work and be reliable. We have seen Navigator deployed in parts of Nebraska, California, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, and Wisconsin. (Any other areas, feel free to mention.) Wisconsin seems to have had the best success. But a 1/6 track record is not very good for a product where far too many other states have had issues after a year in the field. For the money being charged, this product should be at a 90% reliability rate for all that people have gone through. How can TWC believe that they are saving money with this product with so many box returns? Something is very very wrong here. The kind of problems that are being discussed on a global level with Navigator should be very infrequent occurrences, such as a freeze up or a reboot once every 3 MONTHS. A series recording might mess up very rarely if Navigator was a reliable product across markets. A show not recording with such alarming regularity is reprehensible and irresponsible business conduct on many TWC systems for a product that from a national level was not properly tested.

As an over fifteen year subscriber to TWC, I have enjoyed their services. While customer service has fallen off in the last several years they do provide amazing Internet service and Digital Phone, as well as an excellent IPG in Passport. From a global standpoint, what TWC should do is get an extension for Passport/Sara licensing and pay for the upgrades to Passport and Sara systems. Either shelf Navigator for good, or get some quality outside program developers to take responsibility for the project who KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING. Have those people work on Navigator for another year in the labs. Don't release it until this independent programing team has put it through proper design and testing. If after another year, if Navigator is still a national problem, abandon the project altogether, and stick with the Passport and Sara updates accordingly.

Jack

I must say that arguments: "I don't know why the box does not work, but I do know I don't want Navigator since it is unstable" don't hold much water with me. How do you know that Passport/SARA is more stable, given the same box Navigator's on? As far as I know, most Navigators are on cable card boxes - 8300HDC - and, due to regulations, TWC is forced to switch to cable card boxes. Now, anybody knows how Passport/SARA behaves on those boxes? If nobody has a cable card box with Passport/SARA on it, you don't know if having them on a cable card box would work at all, let alone be stable. For all we know, they could be much worse. It is quite likely that, for at least some of the issues, the problems are the boxes, not Navigator. At least in my case, I am almost certain of it. My first box had all kinds of problems, second box has been very stable. Other people that exchanged several boxes had basically different issues with different boxes. Yet, somehow, all that must be Navigator's fault?! Stopping Navigator altogether is not at all clear to be the best course of action.
Now, stopping Navigator from being deployed on existing Passport/SARA non-cable card boxes is another thing altogether. In my opinion, users should have a say in it, although from TW corporate perspective, I can see it making sense to support only one thing. From what I gather, such deployment was not succesfull and was stopped, mainly because Navigator there sucked. However, that was on non-cable card boxes, and it was an old version of Navigator as well; not to mention that Navigator was probably developed emphasizing its ability to work with SDV and cable card boxes, so it may have been a poor fit for legacy boxes, especially if they had little memory.

From what I understand people with sara 1.90 8300hdc boxes are haveing problems close to what Navigator people on 8300hdc boxes are experienceing.THe 8300hd boxes with sara 1.89 are 100% stable but 1.90 seems a bit iffy. Several friends who have the 8300hdc have related horror storys to me. They are on sara 1.90 not Navigator. 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I must say that arguments: "I don't know why the box does not work, but I do know I don't want Navigator since it is unstable" don't hold much water with me. How do you know that Passport/SARA is more stable, given the same box Navigator's on? As far as I know, most Navigators are on cable card boxes - 8300HDC - and, due to regulations, TWC is forced to switch to cable card boxes. Now, anybody knows how Passport/SARA behaves on those boxes? If nobody has a cable card box with Passport/SARA on it, you don't know if having them on a cable card box would work at all, let alone be stable. For all we know, they could be much worse. It is quite likely that, for at least some of the issues, the problems are the boxes, not Navigator. At least in my case, I am almost certain of it. My first box had all kinds of problems, second box has been very stable. Other people that exchanged several boxes had basically different issues with different boxes. Yet, somehow, all that must be Navigator's fault?! Stopping Navigator altogether is not at all clear to be the best course of action.
Now, stopping Navigator from being deployed on existing Passport/SARA non-cable card boxes is another thing altogether. In my opinion, users should have a say in it, although from TW corporate perspective, I can see it making sense to support only one thing. From what I gather, such deployment was not succesfull and was stopped, mainly because Navigator there sucked. However, that was on non-cable card boxes, and it was an old version of Navigator as well; not to mention that Navigator was probably developed emphasizing its ability to work with SDV and cable card boxes, so it may have been a poor fit for legacy boxes, especially if they had little memory.


Personally, I still would have rather seen TWC do what Comcast is doing. Providing a Tivo based solution that will have robust features as well as support from Tivo. Sure, even they are having problems right now, but I would bet that once the Tivo system is in place that it will blow Navigator out of the water. My take is that Tivo would have been smart to design an STB custom and solely for cable system deployment. As a customer, I want a unit that does what I want and what I pay for. Unfortunately, as a cable subscriber, you are forced to use whatever it is the cableco decides to go with. (If you want to take advantage of all they are offering).

Personally, I still would have rather seen TWC do what Comcast is doing. Providing a Tivo based solution that will have robust features as well as support from Tivo. Sure, even they are having problems right now, but I would bet that once the Tivo system is in place that it will blow Navigator out of the water. My take is that Tivo would have been smart to design an STB custom and solely for cable system deployment. As a customer, I want a unit that does what I want and what I pay for. Unfortunately, as a cable subscriber, you are forced to use whatever it is the cableco decides to go with. (If you want to take advantage of all they are offering).

Of course I'd love that; Navigator sucks from user interface standpoint compared to "professional" DVRs, like Tivo or ReplayTV (not so much compared to Passport or SARA, from what little I've seen). However, most people are complaining not about UI, but stability, and I fear that it is mostly cable card / OCAP issue that Tivo would not solve; fits with my own experience, DRWOODY's recent post, as well as some TivoHD issues.

From what I understand people with sara 1.90 8300hdc boxes are haveing problems close to what Navigator people on 8300hdc boxes are experienceing.THe 8300hd boxes with sara 1.89 are 100% stable but 1.90 seems a bit iffy. Several friends who have the 8300hdc have related horror storys to me. They are on sara 1.90 not Navigator. 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Thanks, that's good information. The 1.89 OK, 1.9 not so much even on 8300HD boxes fits with what probably happened with Navigator when it was deployed on some 8300HD boxes. Dealing with security is probably generalized and designed with OCAP in mind, and then the integrated security is likely handled as a special case of that, rather than the old (and robust in previous version of SARA) way. Should still be better than having to also rely on cable card hardware and OCAP.

I must say that arguments: "I don't know why the box does not work, but I do know I don't want Navigator since it is unstable" don't hold much water with me. How do you know that Passport/SARA is more stable, given the same box Navigator's on? As far as I know, most Navigators are on cable card boxes - 8300HDC - and, due to regulations, TWC is forced to switch to cable card boxes. Now, anybody knows how Passport/SARA behaves on those boxes? If nobody has a cable card box with Passport/SARA on it, you don't know if having them on a cable card box would work at all, let alone be stable. For all we know, they could be much worse. It is quite likely that, for at least some of the issues, the problems are the boxes, not Navigator. At least in my case, I am almost certain of it. My first box had all kinds of problems, second box has been very stable. Other people that exchanged several boxes had basically different issues with different boxes. Yet, somehow, all that must be Navigator's fault?! Stopping Navigator altogether is not at all clear to be the best course of action.
Now, stopping Navigator from being deployed on existing Passport/SARA non-cable card boxes is another thing altogether. In my opinion, users should have a say in it, although from TW corporate perspective, I can see it making sense to support only one thing. From what I gather, such deployment was not succesfull and was stopped, mainly because Navigator there sucked. However, that was on non-cable card boxes, and it was an old version of Navigator as well; not to mention that Navigator was probably developed emphasizing its ability to work with SDV and cable card boxes, so it may have been a poor fit for legacy boxes, especially if they had little memory.

Good points,

At least it is documented that Navigator is improving and is WAY BETTER than it was last January. But the issue that arises is how much longer those customers in divisions with problems whether it be the cable system, techs, cable cards. server issues, or the IPG Guide itself should have to wait for stable DVR/box performance. Notice that I didn't say Navigator, but stable DVR/box performance. Perhaps the foundation of the older cable systems and server lines is not ready in several markets for a new IPG and OCAP boxes. The techs in these areas may have to go back to square one foundations with old technology trying to run new boxes and software. We know that tech competency and the type of technology varies from state to state in the cable industry, which can explain a lot of the problems. But it doesn't SOLVE the current problems that customers may be having.

I think that some of the divisions don't know what the problems are so they can't solve them. The best control model for all of this is finding a cable system that runs updated Passport or Sara on OCAP boxes. If such cable divisions exist, these problems that TWC is having may not all be Navigator related. But, at face value, the new guide is what most customers see, and because of that, it is the easiest to blame for the source of their problems.

Jack

Good points,

At least it is documented that Navigator is improving and is WAY BETTER than it was last January. But the issue that arises is how much longer those customers in divisions with problems whether it be the cable system, techs, cable cards. server issues, or the IPG Guide itself should have to wait for stable DVR/box performance. Notice that I didn't say Navigator, but stable DVR/box performance. Perhaps the foundation of the older cable systems and server lines is not ready in several markets for a new IPG and OCAP boxes. The techs in these areas may have to go back to square one foundations with old technology trying to run new boxes and software. We know that tech competency and the type of technology varies from state to state in the cable industry, which can explain a lot of the problems. But it doesn't SOLVE the current problems that customers may be having.

I think that some of the divisions don't know what the problems are so they can't solve them. The best control model for all of this is finding a cable system that runs updated Passport or Sara on OCAP boxes. If such cable divisions exist, these problems that TWC is having may not all be Navigator related. But, at face value, the new guide is what most customers see, and because of that, it is the easiest to blame for the source of their problems.

Jack

Agreed. I have yet to hear of cable card / OCAP box DVR performance that is stable for all (most?) users. Whether software is Navigator, SARA or TivoHD, they all seem to be unstable, at least for some people. Don't know if OCAP version of Passport exists / is available to TWC. This is not that surprising, considering that OCAP and cable boxes are basically first generation, and that the software is also first generation, at least as far as security (i.e. talking to OCAP) is concerned. First generation frequently means trouble. From what I heard, 8000 boxes were a lot worse than 8300.

I fear that it is mostly cable card / OCAP issue that Tivo would not solve; fits with my own experience, DRWOODY's recent post, as well as some TivoHD issues.PedjaR, There is a recurring thought in this and several of your posts that seem to link CableCARD and OCAP. I'm not sure if you intend to link them, but I'd like to point out that they are really two separate items. The relationship is partially in timing (and one of cable's arguments for another delay in the Integrated Security ban has been that OCAP/DCAS was "just around the corner". The other potential relationship is that the new HDC boxes (for CableCARD) have more ram and are essentially certified as "OCAP capable". In Passport markets TW has gone to the OCAP version of Navigator on those boxes. In the meantime, in SARA markets TW has simply gone to a newer version of SARA (1.90.xx.xx) that accommodates the CableCARDs without deploying OCAP.

Only thing I know is that if you have Sara 1.89 hold on to it lon as possible .1.90 on the 8300hdc is kinky.A friend has one was watching Panthers game-screen froze audio continued then in a few minutes box rebooted.Ran for 30 minutes then rebooted itself .After that it ran ok for rest of game.My friend also says he has missed recordings which is almost unhead of on Sara units.He his getting new box mnday will keep you all posted. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Only thing I know is that if you have Sara 1.89 hold on to it lon as possible .1.90 on the 8300hdc is kinky.A friend has one was watching Panthers game-screen froze audio continued then in a few minutes box rebooted.Ran for 30 minutes then rebooted itself .After that it ran ok for rest of game.My friend also says he has missed recordings which is almost unhead of on Sara units.He his getting new box mnday will keep you all posted. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC
I have the 8300HDC box with SARA 1.90.xxx and it has been rock solid. I have not had a single problem with it. I've only had it for a few months though. I'm located in Syracuse, NY. I don't know if the area you are from makes any difference. If I do have any problems I'll be sure to post it. I just wanted to let you know someone out there has this combination of hardware and software working just fine. Hopefully a new box will solve your problem.

I have the 8300HDC box with SARA 1.90.xxx and it has been rock solid. I have not had a single problem with it. I've only had it for a few months though. I'm located in Syracuse, NY. I don't know if the area you are from makes any difference. If I do have any problems I'll be sure to post it. I just wanted to let you know someone out there has this combination of hardware and software working just fine. Hopefully a new box will solve your problem.This goes back to the point that has been made earlier: there are lots of variables that effect system performance. Every single cable system is somewhat different and while a particular piece of software may work fine on system A there may be certain incompatibilities with system B. In Rochester, folks with 1.90.xx.xx had problems with the local CBS HD station: every time that station switched from 5.1 to 2.0 the recording stopped. Was the problem SARA? Was it the station? Was it something els in the TW head end? Or a combination of other things. Yet, 90 miles up the road, your SARA 1.90 has been "rock solid".

In the case of Navigator: It may be the CableCARD software, it may be OCAP, it may be Navigator, it may be something else in the cable system. There have also been (a few) reports of rock solid Navigator operation too!

PS, dack70. This time you included where you are in the body of your post text. But the next time you make a contribution, you might not mention that, and where someone is located can often add context to what they are saying. All posters on cable related threads really ought to include their location in their profile. Please!

This goes back to the point that has been made earlier: there are lots of variables that effect system performance. Every single cable system is somewhat different and while a particular piece of software may work fine on system A there may be certain incompatibilities with system B. In Rochester, folks with 1.90.xx.xx had problems with the local CBS HD station: every time that station switched from 5.1 to 2.0 the recording stopped. Was the problem SARA? Was it the station? Was it something els in the TW head end? Or a combination of other things. Yet, 90 miles up the road, your SARA 1.90 has been "rock solid".

In the case of Navigator: It may be the CableCARD software, it may be OCAP, it may be Navigator, it may be something else in the cable system. There have also been (a few) reports of rock solid Navigator operation too!

PS, dack70. This time you included where you are in the body of your post text. But the next time you make a contribution, you might not mention that, and where someone is located can often add context to what they are saying. All posters on cable related threads really ought to include their location in their profile. Please!
A rock solid Navigator box?! Who do I have to kill to get one of those? :)

This goes back to the point that has been made earlier: there are lots of variables that effect system performance. Every single cable system is somewhat different and while a particular piece of software may work fine on system A there may be certain incompatibilities with system B. In Rochester, folks with 1.90.xx.xx had problems with the local CBS HD station: every time that station switched from 5.1 to 2.0 the recording stopped. Was the problem SARA? Was it the station? Was it something els in the TW head end? Or a combination of other things. Yet, 90 miles up the road, your SARA 1.90 has been "rock solid".

In the case of Navigator: It may be the CableCARD software, it may be OCAP, it may be Navigator, it may be something else in the cable system. There have also been (a few) reports of rock solid Navigator operation too!

PS, dack70. This time you included where you are in the body of your post text. But the next time you make a contribution, you might not mention that, and where someone is located can often add context to what they are saying. All posters on cable related threads really ought to include their location in their profile. Please!
Just saw your P.S. message. I added my location to my Profile. I would like to create a signature with my Home Theatre equipment, but the warning said don't put equipment in the signature. Why is that? I see a lot of other people listing their equipment.

PedjaR, There is a recurring thought in this and several of your posts that seem to link CableCARD and OCAP. I'm not sure if you intend to link them, but I'd like to point out that they are really two separate items. The relationship is partially in timing (and one of cable's arguments for another delay in the Integrated Security ban has been that OCAP/DCAS was "just around the corner". The other potential relationship is that the new HDC boxes (for CableCARD) have more ram and are essentially certified as "OCAP capable". In Passport markets TW has gone to the OCAP version of Navigator on those boxes. In the meantime, in SARA markets TW has simply gone to a newer version of SARA (1.90.xx.xx) that accommodates the CableCARDs without deploying OCAP.

Thanks Dave, learnt something new today. While I knew they are separate things, I thought all cable card boxes were supposed to run OCAP and the point was that any application, like IPG, was supposed to communicate with OCAP, and not care exactly what hardware is behind it. That, in my mind seemd to be in the spirit of the regulation that supposedly levels the field - i.e. everybody must write applications for OCAP, rather than for specific hardware. I guess it is not quite like that.
This muddies the picture a bit, in the sense that if SARA boxes that communicate with cable cards directly end up being more stable than Navigator boxes that go through OCAP, you can not for sure tell whether it is because SARA is more stable than Navigator or because OCAP is cut out of equation. However, if they prove to be roughly the same as Navigator boxes, that probably indicates that the issues are not related to OCAP, and likely hardware is flaky (or writing software for this hardware is apparently so difficult that nobody can do it right).

Thanks Dave, learnt something new today. While I knew they are separate things, I thought all cable card boxes were supposed to run OCAP and the point was that any application, like IPG, was supposed to communicate with OCAP, and not care exactly what hardware is behind it. That, in my mind seemd to be in the spirit of the regulation that supposedly levels the field - i.e. everybody must write applications for OCAP, rather than for specific hardware. I guess it is not quite like that.
This muddies the picture a bit, in the sense that if SARA boxes that communicate with cable cards directly end up being more stable than Navigator boxes that go through OCAP, you can not for sure tell whether it is because SARA is more stable than Navigator or because OCAP is cut out of equation. However, if they prove to be roughly the same as Navigator boxes, that probably indicates that the issues are not related to OCAP, and likely hardware is flaky (or writing software for this hardware is apparently so difficult that nobody can do it right).You have most of that right, but I would like to elaborate on a couple of items:
1) The FCC has never passed any regulations mandating OCAP or any other specific "solution". The FCC is, however, considering regulations that would mandate something like OCAP - and that is what the cable industry is pushing for.
2) It is pretty clear that smaller memory footprint boxes will never run OCAP successfully. Keep in mind that one objective of OCAP is that independent developers will come up with new applications that will run on the cable boxes and access various new services on cable. Think interactive video games as an example. The IPG is just the basic application. This will require more power than the legacy (pre-OCAP) boxes have.

My friend had TWC come out late Sun night.They replaced his 8300hdc with a new box.It has a newer version 0f 1.90 software.So far with only a few hours of use no problems.Not sure of which version of 1.90 he has now but will keep you updated. SARA 1.89.17.1 8300hd Greensboro NC

Well,

If it's a sign of things to come, Navigator here in TWC-Milwaukee has been moved to the home page of TWC's Wisconsin website. It hasn't been that way since the January test rollout. I wonder if we are going to get a notification of the change over?

Jack

Question for anyone with Navigator.What recording options are offered on the dvr.From what I have seen they are poorer than Passport and way poorer than Sara. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC_____________________

Question for anyone with Navigator.What recording options are offered on the dvr.From what I have seen they are poorer than Passport and way poorer than Sara. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC_____________________

Well here's what I have with Navigator.

General Recording:

Record This Show

Record This Show With Options

Options are:

Change Save Time -> Until Space Is Needed, Do Not Delete

Adjust Start Time -> Original Start Time; Start 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Earlier; Start 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Later

Adjust End Time -> Original End Time; End 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Later, 1 or 2 Hours Later; End 1,2,3,4,5,15 Minutes Earlier.

Set Reminder

For Series Recordings all of the above plus:

Record Series

Record Series With Options -> Save At Most -> Last 3 Episodes, Last 5 Episodes, Last 7 Episodes, Keep All Episodes

Record -> New Episodes, New and Repeat Episodes

Well here's what I have with Navigator.


Thanks Nextoo,

It looks like there are no options for 'Repeat Episodes in this timeslot'. Meaning if you set up to record 'The Daily Show' which at least in my guide data never has an accurate 'NEW' marking, you only have the choice to record every occurrence on the channel?

Is there a separate 'VCR' type recording setup where you can just say 'record channel 59 from 10-10:30 every weekday'?

xnappo

Thanks Nextoo,

It looks like there are no options for 'Repeat Episodes in this timeslot'. Meaning if you set up to record 'The Daily Show' which at least in my guide data never has an accurate 'NEW' marking, you only have the choice to record every occurrence on the channel?

Is there a separate 'VCR' type recording setup where you can just say 'record channel 59 from 10-10:30 every weekday'?

xnappo

I don't believe so. The problem I see with the Navigator approach is two fold when comparing to Passport.

First series recordings are only for the channel that you are setting up the series recording on. With Passport you can designate recording the series across all channels. It is an additional option.

Second with Passport you can set up manual recordings. Not so with Navigator.

Are these deal breakers? Perhaps to some. I never use manual recording. So for me it hasn't been a big deal. I didn't even know setting up a manual recording was an option until I read it on AVS a few months ago.

I don't believe so. The problem I see with the Navigator approach is two fold when comparing to Passport.

First series recordings are only for the channel that you are setting up the series recording on. With Passport you can designate recording the series across all channels. It is an additional option.

Second with Passport you can set up manual recordings. Not so with Navigator.

Are these deal breakers? Perhaps to some. I never use manual recording. So for me it hasn't been a big deal. I didn't even know setting up a manual recording was an option until I read it on AVS a few months ago.

Thanks. I would miss SARA's 'On this channel, in this timeslot' option - but could live without it I suppose. At least Navigator has SOME sort of conflict resolution for series recordings - SARA doesn't have anything so it make this much more important.

xnappo

Thanks. I would miss SARA's 'On this channel, in this timeslot' option - but could live without it I suppose. At least Navigator has SOME sort of conflict resolution for series recordings - SARA doesn't have anything so it make this much more important.

xnappo

My take is that it is still early in the Navigator game. Very early. Including a manual recording option would seem like a simple upgrade for future revisions.

I remember over the years with Passport enhancements would be added. For example reordering the recorded list. That was another feature I was unaware of until I read it on AVS.

Well here's what I have with Navigator.

General Recording:

Record This Show

Record This Show With Options

Options are:

Change Save Time -> Until Space Is Needed, Do Not Delete

Adjust Start Time -> Original Start Time; Start 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Earlier; Start 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Later

Adjust End Time -> Original End Time; End 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Later, 1 or 2 Hours Later; End 1,2,3,4,5,15 Minutes Earlier.

Set Reminder

For Series Recordings all of the above plus:

Record Series

Record Series With Options -> Save At Most -> Last 3 Episodes, Last 5 Episodes, Last 7 Episodes, Keep All Episodes

Record -> New Episodes, New and Repeat Episodes

Nextoo,

What are the default settings in Navigator for selecting "Record This Show" and nothing else? This is what I use most often with Passport.

It's good we still have adjustable Start and End times.

Jack

Update,

Someone on the Milwaukee HDTV Forums has posted that they got an automated phone call about being upgraded to Navigator soon. He said that part of the call was cut off. But it appears that the downloads to the legacy boxes have begun or will be starting shortly. You can start praying for me!!!! hahahaha! Hopefully things will be OK. Too bad that you're switching Nextoo. Being from the same area, we could do comparisons. Glad I found this board last year!!!

I think you might be seeing a lot more of me!!!

Jack

Nextoo,

What are the default settings in Navigator for selecting "Record This Show" and nothing else? This is what I use most often with Passport.

It's good we still have adjustable Start and End times.

Jack

It's what you would expect. Start and end on time. Delete when space is needed.

Thanks. I would miss SARA's 'On this channel, in this timeslot' option - but could live without it I suppose. At least Navigator has SOME sort of conflict resolution for series recordings - SARA doesn't have anything so it make this much more important.

xnappo

Navigator does offer conflict resolution. I haven't run across it enough to fully understand how it works.

Also, at least in my case, when setting up a series recording and setting it to record both new and repeat episodes it will record only one instance of the repeat. At least this has been my experience - again from a rather limited usage experience.

With Passport it would record all repeats. Meaning more than one repeat of the same episode would be recorded. I would then just delete the multiple recorded repeats from the recorded list.

Navigator does offer conflict resolution. I haven't run across it enough to fully understand how it works.

Also, at least in my case, when setting up a series recording and setting it to record both new and repeat episodes it will record only one instance of the repeat. At least this has been my experience - again from a rather limited usage experience.

With Passport it would record all repeats. Meaning more than one repeat of the same episode would be recorded. I would then just delete the multiple recorded repeats from the recorded list.

I'm quoting myself but here is a follow up.

Using The Daily Show as an example. When searching The Daily Show Navigator displays 23 episodes over the nest week on Comedy Central. I set up a series recording to record New and Repeat episodes. In scheduled recordings there are now 7 recordings scheduled for The Daily Show - not 23. All on Comedy Central. And at various times. Examples of different times are 9:00 am, 1:00 pm, 7:00 pm and 10:00 pm - different times on different days. It only schedules the recording of an episode once.

The interesting thing with Navigator and conflict resolution is that if I schedule a subsequent recording of a different program and it conflicts with one of the 7 scheduled recordings of The Daily Show it will, in the background, reschedule The Daily Show episode to one of the other time slots if available - one of the 23 originally listed. If this is not possible (realizing there are two tuners) it will then alert me that there is a conflict.

Whether this all works without a hitch I'm sure is up for discussion. I am not what I would consider a heavy user. But in theory it is what I would call a step ahead of what either Passport or SARA offers. I haven't had any real problems but those that do more series recordings I'm sure are aware of where it has to improve. For example prioritizing series recordings.

SARA has record first run-record all-record this day at this timeslot-record everyday in this time slot.Manual recording lets you record daily,weekends,Mon,Tue,Wed,Thrursday ect or any combination of days.It also let you adjust start and end times on recordings.One thing Sara has that i like better than Navigator is that on series recordings it lets u keep only one episode.That means if i record ABC News at 6:30 and watch it the DVR ersases that recording the next night and gives me a fresh news castIf you have several series you watch only once it is a handy option. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC.

I'm quoting myself but here is a follow up.


The interesting thing with Navigator and conflict resolution is that if I schedule a subsequent recording of a different program and it conflicts with one of the 7 scheduled recordings of The Daily Show it will, in the background, reschedule The Daily Show episode to one of the other time slots if available - one of the 23 originally listed. If this is not possible (realizing there are two tuners) it will then alert me that there is a conflict.



Thanks for the info. As you say - if it works then it is a great feature - and does make the lack of flexibility in scheduling less important.

xnappo

Thanks for the info. As you say - if it works then it is a great feature - and does make the lack of flexibility in scheduling less important.

xnappo

Right - if it works. Mine has been stable and I have not had any problems.

But I think I explained the process a bit backwards. I went back and read my post it - is not as accurate as it could have been.

Using The Daily Show as an example. It will compare the 23 potential episodes against what may already be set up in scheduled recordings (other series etc). It will then schedule The Daily Show based on this. But only one recording of an episode - no duplicates.

Using The Daily Show as an example. It will compare the 23 potential episodes against what may already be set up in scheduled recordings (other series etc). It will then schedule The Daily Show based on this. But only one recording of an episode - no duplicates.

I wonder how it knows... Especially with The Daily Show - the description is not usually unique. I wonder if the guide data contains an episode number or something that isn't visible...

xnappo

SARA has record first run-record all-record this day at this timeslot-record everyday in this time slot.Manual recording lets you record daily,weekends,Mon,Tue,Wed,Thrursday ect or any combination of days.It also let you adjust start and end times on recordings.One thing Sara has that i like better than Navigator is that on series recordings it lets u keep only one episode.That means if i record ABC News at 6:30 and watch it the DVR ersases that recording the next night and gives me a fresh news castIf you have several series you watch only once it is a handy option. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC.

Quick question. With Navigator the minimum is 3 (episodes before it automaticlly deletes the oldest). Not 1 (or once). If you have SARA set to "once" and you do not have the chance to watch it does it delete it? I have no experience with SARA.

I wonder how it knows... Especially with The Daily Show - the description is not usually unique. I wonder if the guide data contains an episode number or something that isn't visible...

xnappo

This is an important point. I have no idea. And you are right the description often times are the same across episodes. Many times short and generic. But the example I used with the 23 episodes and only 7 being scheduled is what my box is showing me. The next step would be to see if they are the "right" 7 episodes. My guess is that they probably will be. Again how I do not know.

This is an important point. I have no idea. And you are right the description often times are the same across episodes. Many times short and generic. But the example I used with the 23 episodes and only 7 being scheduled is what my box is showing me. The next step would be to see if they are the "right" 7 episodes. My guess is that they probably will be. Again how I do not know.

I had the same thing work fine - show has more than one airing of a "New" episode; one airing (usualy first) is the only one scheduled; when I later created a conflict (scheduled two more shows in the same time slot), it automatically dropped that recording and picked up a later airing of the same episode, thus resolving the conflict with no user action required. To date that's by far the smartest thing I've seen Navigator do. The show had better description than Daily Show, though. Although, in my case, the New flag on Daily Show workds fine (now it seems off permanently, but that's due to writer's strike - induced repeats).

Well here's what I have with Navigator.

General Recording:

Record This Show

Record This Show With Options

Options are:

Change Save Time -> Until Space Is Needed, Do Not Delete

Adjust Start Time -> Original Start Time; Start 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Earlier; Start 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Later

Adjust End Time -> Original End Time; End 1,2,3,4,5,15,30 Minutes Later, 1 or 2 Hours Later; End 1,2,3,4,5,15 Minutes Earlier.

Set Reminder

For Series Recordings all of the above plus:

Record Series

Record Series With Options -> Save At Most -> Last 3 Episodes, Last 5 Episodes, Last 7 Episodes, Keep All Episodes

Record -> New Episodes, New and Repeat Episodes

Not quite; Record Series With Options does NOT have "Until Space Is Needed, Do Not Delete" option, you have to set it per episode, once they show either in Recorded List or Scheduled List (unless you have a newer version of Navigator that has it). That's a bit annoying - if you have a show that you do not want deleted, you have to mark each episode as "Do Not Delete".

Not quite; Record Series With Options does NOT have "Until Space Is Needed, Do Not Delete" option, you have to set it per episode, once they show either in Recorded List or Scheduled List (unless you have a newer version of Navigator that has it). That's a bit annoying - if you have a show that you do not want deleted, you have to mark each episode as "Do Not Delete".

Good catch. You are right. The "Until Space is Need" "Do Not Delete" option is not there under series recordings.

Not quite; Record Series With Options does NOT have "Until Space Is Needed, Do Not Delete" option, you have to set it per episode, once they show either in Recorded List or Scheduled List (unless you have a newer version of Navigator that has it). That's a bit annoying - if you have a show that you do not want deleted, you have to mark each episode as "Do Not Delete".

Update -

Record Series With Options -> Save at most -> Keep all episodes.

Check it out.

I had the same thing work fine - show has more than one airing of a "New" episode; one airing (usualy first) is the only one scheduled; when I later created a conflict (scheduled two more shows in the same time slot), it automatically dropped that recording and picked up a later airing of the same episode, thus resolving the conflict with no user action required. To date that's by far the smartest thing I've seen Navigator do. The show had better description than Daily Show, though. Although, in my case, the New flag on Daily Show workds fine (now it seems off permanently, but that's due to writer's strike - induced repeats).

I tested The Daily Show earlier today. After xnappo's post.

I cleared everything out and loaded up some very busy series - Friends and Seinfeld. Two examples of series with daily showings as opposed to a weekly series. I then set up The Daily Show as a series recording. The search list showed 23 episodes of The Daily Show over the next week. 7 of the 23 episodes for The Daily Show showed up in scheduled recordings - the days and times were scheduled by Navigator around the previous Friends and Seinfeld scheduled recordings.

Also both Friends and Seinfeld showed no duplicate episodes in scheduled recordings. Both were set up with the New and Repeat option. No duplicates of the repeat episodes.

I tested The Daily Show earlier today. After xnappo's post.

I cleared everything out and loaded up some very busy series - Friends and Seinfeld. Two examples of series with daily showings as opposed to a weekly series. I then set up The Daily Show as a series recording. The search list showed 23 episodes of The Daily Show over the next week. 7 of the 23 episodes for The Daily Show showed up in scheduled recordings - the days and times were scheduled around the previous Friends and Seinfeld scheduled recordings.

Also both Friends and Seinfeld showed no duplicate episodes in scheduled recordings. Both were set up with the New and Repeat option.

Wow, that is pretty nifty. Thanks a lot for the investigation.

xnappo

With Sara useing the one episode record,if you do not get a chance to view you can easily extend the save time up to two weeks or do do not delete. It's a simple but effective way to extend save times.If you are uncomfortable with saveing one episode you can save two.three four or five or all.Sara is very flexable in it's recording options. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Update,

Someone on the Milwaukee HDTV Forums has posted that they got an automated phone call about being upgraded to Navigator soon. He said that part of the call was cut off. But it appears that the downloads to the legacy boxes have begun or will be starting shortly. You can start praying for me!!!! hahahaha! Hopefully things will be OK. Too bad that you're switching Nextoo. Being from the same area, we could do comparisons. Glad I found this board last year!!!

I think you might be seeing a lot more of me!!!

Jack

Where? I checked the Milwaukee HDTV forum and I can't find the post. I am probably missing it. Post a link please Thanks.

Where? I checked the Milwaukee HDTV forum and I can't find the post. I am probably missing it. Post a link please Thanks.

Here you go!

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7156

Jack

It looks like it is close then. Good luck!

HDC boxes have been going out since July and the outrage has not been too bad. A spattering of complaints but nothing significant posted locally. Rather quiet actually. I noticed most of the recent comments have been about Passport boxes spontaneously rebooting. Maybe it has something to do with the roll out - not sure. Maybe not.

But I noticed you recently joined the Milwaukee HDTV forum in November so I would expect the Navigator complaining to increase exponentially. Once again - good luck!

It looks like it is close then. Good luck!

HDC boxes have been going out since July and the outrage has not been too bad. A spattering of complaints but nothing significant posted locally. Rather quiet actually. I noticed most of the recent comments have been about Passport boxes spontaneously rebooting. Maybe it has something to do with the roll out - not sure. Maybe not.

But I noticed you recently joined the Milwaukee HDTV forum in November so I would expect the Navigator complaining to increase exponentially. Once again - good luck!

Hahahaha!!!! I'm either gonna get Happy New Year or Armageddon!!!

I have been studying the promo screens. Those search options look INTENSE! Like the Movie on Demand Menus but more involved.

Jack

Hahahaha!!!! I'm either gonna get Happy New Year or Armageddon!!!

I have been studying the promo screens. Those search options look INTENSE! Like the Movie on Demand Menus but more involved.

Jack

You should worry a bit less. If you do get converted and are having any problems then you need to stay on TWC until they make it right. If your box is stable I think you will be OK.

What I have found is that taking the time to understand how Navigator works helps - a lot. Meaning if you simply take your Passport experience and apply it to Navigator you will not get the full benefit of what Navigator has to offer. Although stable Passport offers a rather limited U/I. Navigator's U/I offers a lot more but you may stumble a bit at first. Like anything else which is more complex.

But again you need a stable box. Your chances in SE WI are pretty good.

Thanks Nexto and everyone,

I think I'll be ok. One question that I can't figure out is about the Recording Log. As their FAQ on the website indicates:

PROGRAM STORAGE

How many days of data are available in the TWC Navigator™ Program Guide?

The Program Guide allows viewers to scroll up to 14 days in the future and two hours back from the current time, in 30-minute increments.

How long will a program display in the Recording Log?

All programs that have been recorded will remain in the Recording Log for 14 days. Deleted programs or programs that did not record will also be listed on the log for the same period. The Recording Log contains data about:

Programs that did not record due to a recording conflict.

Programs that did not record because there was no space available on the disk.

Programs that were recorded but deleted by the user.

Programs that were recorded and then deleted to make room for new recordings.

If a program will only stay in the Recording Log for 14 days, does that mean that on day 15 it will be deleted unless you select "Do Not Delete" from the options list? If the program does not delete itself after day 14, how would you bring it up on the list to watch it or manage it?

Jack

If a program will only stay in the Recording Log for 14 days, does that mean that on day 15 it will be deleted unless you select "Do Not Delete" from the options list? If the program does not delete itself after day 14, how would you bring it up on the list to watch it or manage it?I think they must mean "log entries" not programs. The recording log only contains messages documenting programs that were deleted or did not record for one reason or another.

Also, I only get 7 days of program guide; not the 14 days your quote indicates.

In SE WI right now the guide is 2 hours back and 7 days forward. Not the 14 that is stated on the web site. But 14 would be nice and my guess is that it will eventually be 14.

The log as stated is just a log of activity - not the retained recordings themselves. So log entries expire after 14 days not the recordings. I posted previously that the log in my guide was now longer there. That was in error. It is there and works fine.

Scientific Atlantic is running a contest--they want to know what you think about your DVR:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/email/2007/1107-DVR-Lovers/landing.htm

Update -

Record Series With Options -> Save at most -> Keep all episodes.

Check it out.

I was aware of that one, but I do not think that's the same thing. I think that if "Save at most" is set to, say, 3 episodes, if you have 3 recorded, when it is time to record the fourth one, the first one gets deleted whether or not space is available; this avoids space getting tight (and potential deletion of old stuff not marked "Do not delete") due to huge accumulation of series recordings. "Keep all episodes" would mean keep as many as possible - delete only if run out of space. The "Do not delete", on the other hand, means never automatically delete this recording; if you want to record and have no space, delete something else; if all your shows are marked "Do not delete" and you run out of space, just do not record the new show. I am not completely sure that this is the correct interpretation, and there is no quick way to check it, but it sure looks like that to me. There is one thing that points towards "Do not delete" and "Keep all episodes" being different: marking a recording as "Do not delete”, adds a green icon next to it in the list, unmarking removes the icon; "Keep all episodes" does not change the icon.

After my problem on Saturday, the box rebooted itself overnight. Sunday morning, it worked fine. Sunday night, I record Family Guy, it's full of audio dropouts. Other than the audio dropouts, the box worked about as well as you can expect Navigator to work.

Then, Tuesday afternoon during the Live on Five the bix clicks offf and reboots. When the OCAP screen comes on, it stayed on and never loaded Navigator. OCAP stayed on the front panel. After waiting the usual ten minutes I "helped" it along by manually rebooting it again. Then after the second reboot it worked OK again. I recorded "Rudolph" and Victoria's Secret on CBS and "Boston Legal", they all recorded OK. The box shut off a second time about six hours later during Jay Leno. Once again OCAP is stuck on the front panel and a blank screen is on the box channel. After rebooting manually, still nothing. Now it looks like I'll have to find time to go through Time Warner's "phone hell" tomorrow :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I'm gonna be pi$$y in the morning after staying up so late with this thing, but I left it unplugged for about an hour while I watched a "Grey's Anatomy" that was on at 1:35(odd time). When I plugged the box in again, it took a while with the OCAP screen, but the L-13 screen finally came up. When the software loaded, I first flipped to WKYC-HD to make sure everything loaded, then I flipped down to WJW-DT before flipping to Adult Swim. When I went from 508 to 29, the picture is stuck on 508, but the channel said 29. The channels are changing but the picture/sound is not. The on-screen reflects the changes but the picture is the same, even when the box is turned off.
Time Warner Phone Hell, here I come!

I'm gonna be pi$$y in the morning after staying up so late with this thing, but I left it unplugged for about an hour while I watched a "Grey's Anatomy" that was on at 1:35(odd time). When I plugged the box in again, it took a while with the OCAP screen, but the L-13 screen finally came up. When the software loaded, I first flipped to WKYC-HD to make sure everything loaded, then I flipped down to WJW-DT before flipping to Adult Swim. When I went from 508 to 29, the picture is stuck on 508, but the channel said 29. The channels are changing but the picture/sound is not. The on-screen reflects the changes but the picture is the same, even when the box is turned off.
Time Warner Phone Hell, here I come!

Have them replace the box. If you get problems again, ask for another box, and so on. May take several tries, but, hopefully, eventually you'll get a stable box. Once you do, Navigator is passable.

Riverside Guy,

I was wondering when you say your box is slow for 2-3 minutes, do you mean when you are using the IPG/scrolling or any button pressing on the remote? What brand of remote do you have and how old is the remote?

Passport, but I do NOT think the IPG has anything to do with this, it seems a hardware issue. Remote is fairly new, gotten with the 8300HD year and a half ago. It's a UR5U-8400 model. Had the exact same kind of remote with my 800 DVR and it never had such symptoms. Yes everything on the box DOES work from the turn-on, the ONLY issue is the box receiving the remote commands. It's so bad that on turn-on, even of I am 3 feet from the box, I MUST make a big point of pointing it at the unit, a little off and even at that close of a distance, it can fail to acknowledge remote button presses.

Let me chime in 2 cents worth here (and this applies in general, not to Navigator). Nextoo has touched in these last couple of posts on something very important when it comes to problems on cable systems. And that is that EVERY cable system is different. A particular version of software may work perfectly fine on system A, yet run into conflicts, and other problems on system B. So what may be true on system B just is not necessarily true on system A.

Knowledge of this is what drives me "up the wall" when folks refuse to put their location (City & State) in their profile - because what you experience may have an awful lot to do with were you are. Better yet, also include your software version in your signature. That way whenever you make ANY statement, the rest of us have some context with which to more fully understand what you may be saying. ;)

So true! We "know" that same cable company, same hardware, same version of one of the IPGs CAN have actually different things/features available in different regions.

Personally, I still would have rather seen TWC do what Comcast is doing. Providing a Tivo based solution that will have robust features as well as support from Tivo. Sure, even they are having problems right now, but I would bet that once the Tivo system is in place that it will blow Navigator out of the water. My take is that Tivo would have been smart to design an STB custom and solely for cable system deployment. As a customer, I want a unit that does what I want and what I pay for. Unfortunately, as a cable subscriber, you are forced to use whatever it is the cableco decides to go with. (If you want to take advantage of all they are offering).

From what I've read, there apparently is a 3 buck/month fee for using the TiVo software. Much COULD be made of that!

Just saw your P.S. message. I added my location to my Profile. I would like to create a signature with my Home Theatre equipment, but the warning said don't put equipment in the signature. Why is that? I see a lot of other people listing their equipment.

What is most relevant is the kind of data Dave and I put in our sigs... cable company, cable STB, software, and version. I have multiple cable head ends (we have at least six and perhaps more) and in my city we HAVE seen issues with one or the other head end, so it is relevant here.

Navigator does offer conflict resolution. I haven't run across it enough to fully understand how it works.

Also, at least in my case, when setting up a series recording and setting it to record both new and repeat episodes it will record only one instance of the repeat. At least this has been my experience - again from a rather limited usage experience.

With Passport it would record all repeats. Meaning more than one repeat of the same episode would be recorded. I would then just delete the multiple recorded repeats from the recorded list.

One strategy I use is to set a series recording at all episodes BUT only a certain time slot. As in a record the 3 AM slot and ignore everything else. From what I've read, this seems impossible w/Craptigator.

Quick question. With Navigator the minimum is 3 (episodes before it automaticlly deletes the oldest). Not 1 (or once). If you have SARA set to "once" and you do not have the chance to watch it does it delete it? I have no experience with SARA.

Sounds like exactly the wrong default! Passport defaults to "ALL Episodes."

Sometimes I DO pile up episodes, especially for non HD serials ( I have 4 Flash Gordon's waiting for a marathon, like I bust a move and end up in bed for 2 days recovering).

This is an important point. I have no idea. And you are right the description often times are the same across episodes. Many times short and generic. But the example I used with the 23 episodes and only 7 being scheduled is what my box is showing me. The next step would be to see if they are the "right" 7 episodes. My guess is that they probably will be. Again how I do not know.

One of my biggest pet peeves, totally ignoring the very common designation of season and episode (as "S01E04"). The pi**er is that this is exactly how it is shown on... the pirate sites! Imagine how much easier on us if TV Guide supplied such data to the cable outfit AND the cable outfit USED it.

Does anyone know if with navigator if you have it hooked up with HDMI if you can set just one resoloution yet? I had a HDC box like two days before DIsh showed up for install..anyways do you still have to watch it in the native resoloution of broadcast, or can you set the box at 1080i and it upconvert everything to 1080i?

What I have found is that taking the time to understand how Navigator works helps - a lot. Meaning if you simply take your Passport experience and apply it to Navigator you will not get the full benefit of what Navigator has to offer. Although stable Passport offers a rather limited U/I. Navigator's U/I offers a lot more but you may stumble a bit at first. Like anything else which is more complex.

But again you need a stable box. Your chances in SE WI are pretty good.

Except the issue is that TWC does NOT document even half the capabilities of their software. I have learned about certain things Passport CAN do ONLY from posts here, nothing in ANY documentation I've ever seen is that feature actually detailed.

If a program will only stay in the Recording Log for 14 days, does that mean that on day 15 it will be deleted unless you select "Do Not Delete" from the options list? If the program does not delete itself after day 14, how would you bring it up on the list to watch it or manage it?

Jack

Individual or series recordings seem to all default to "save until space is needed." This works fine in passport because the list of recorded shows will start showing various indicators recorded shows might get deleted... in general 2 days prior. Typically that means you'll see the recorded shows that have 2 days left with little hourglass icons, longer than that, no hourglass BUT a text indicator how many days left.

For the past 18 months this has served me 100%. Assuming Craptigator has a "save until space is needed" default, does it also do notifications like this?

I had so much trouble with my 8300hdc OCAP box, I ended up using 4 different boxes in 3 days. things where fine for a week then it starts rebooting. it works fine for a few days then it bad for hours at a time

I wrote a complaint letter to the President of the South Los Angeles area talking about my issues i was supprised to get a call from a local engineer about 2 hours after i sent my letter.

after we trouble shooted he thinks the problem is a week signal he said the box gets to many errors and shuts downs and reboots. we did some testing on the two boxes in my house. one was getting a strong signal but the 8300hdc was not. they are coming saturday to replace cables and put in an amplifier.
one thing he said is that i had a lot of outlets so thats something for you to check. I had two TV,s hooked to digital cable boxes and 4 TV's hooked with basic cable and one Tivo conections

The more connections you have the weaker the signal even if the TV's are not turned on

so for those people who are having constant reboots ask them to check your signal strengh. check the splitters in the house and replace the old cable

They are coming to fix my wiring and add the amplifier Saturday i will let you know how it goes

Passport, but I do NOT think the IPG has anything to do with this, it seems a hardware issue. Remote is fairly new, gotten with the 8300HD year and a half ago. It's a UR5U-8400 model. Had the exact same kind of remote with my 800 DVR and it never had such symptoms. Yes everything on the box DOES work from the turn-on, the ONLY issue is the box receiving the remote commands. It's so bad that on turn-on, even of I am 3 feet from the box, I MUST make a big point of pointing it at the unit, a little off and even at that close of a distance, it can fail to acknowledge remote button presses.

I'd call,

And than ask the tech to bring out a new remote, describing the above issues. Than, when he is there, you can do side by side comparisions of the remotes. It does sound like a bad remote signal. Maybe all that's bad (or that might be going bad) is the circut signal that controls your remote commands. I would say that this is especially true if the batteries are good and everything else works. If his remote does the same as yours, than you know it's a box issue and he can replace the box.

Jack

I had so much trouble with my 8300hdc OCAP box, I ended up using 4 different boxes in 3 days. things where fine for a week then it starts rebooting. it works fine for a few days then it bad for hours at a time

I wrote a complaint letter to the President of the South Los Angeles area talking about my issues i was surprised to get a call from a local engineer about 2 hours after i sent my letter.

after we trouble shooted he thinks the problem is a week signal he said the box gets to many errors and shuts downs and reboots. we did some testing on the two boxes in my house. one was getting a strong signal but the 8300hdc was not. they are coming Saturday to replace cables and put in an amplifier.
one thing he said is that i had a lot of outlets so thats something for you to check. I had two TV,s hooked to digital cable boxes and 4 TV's hooked with basic cable and one Tivo connection

The more connections you have the weaker the signal even if the TV's are not turned on

so for those people who are having constant reboots ask them to check your signal strength. check the splitters in the house and replace the old cable

They are coming to fix my wiring and add the amplifier Saturday i will let you know how it goes

I have my stuff plugged into a Monster Cable Serge protector. When last checked the signal was very very strong and I haven't had reboot problems. (Still on Passport, but this raises an important point about how signal strength can be an issue, regardless of the type of software used.)

Edwarto,

Can you please post your location in your profile? It may help others in their own troubleshooting issues.

Jack

I have my stuff plugged into a Monster Cable Serge protector. When last checked the signal was very very strong and I haven't had reboot problems. (Still on Passport, but this raises an important point about how signal strength can be an issue, regardless of the type of software used.)

Edwarto,

Can you please post your location in your profile? It may help others in their own troubleshooting issues.

Jack

Done
I am in fountain valley

Does anyone know if with navigator if you have it hooked up with HDMI if you can set just one resoloution yet? I had a HDC box like two days before DIsh showed up for install..anyways do you still have to watch it in the native resoloution of broadcast, or can you set the box at 1080i and it upconvert everything to 1080i?with hdmi the box outputs in the channels native resolution. i switched back to component and i can specify resolutions. for example, i have selected only 720 and 1080. then if i go to a non-hd 480 channel it plays in 1080. i like this for the simple fact that i can then use my tv's aspect button to zoom letter boxed SD channels and watch them "full screen". if i used hdmi and watched an SD channel it would output 480 to the tv. my tv would only change the aspect/zoom within the 4:3 square leaving bars on the side. i wish i had this functionality with hdmi, but sadly, the 8300hdc does not allow this. yes, i tried setting my resolution with component then using hdmi but the settings dont stick.

I have a new one in the Navigator problem department. I came home to find my 8300HDC with "E-13" on the front. Nothing on the screen.

with hdmi the box outputs in the channels native resolution. i switched back to component and i can specify resolutions. for example, i have selected only 720 and 1080. then if i go to a non-hd 480 channel it plays in 1080. i like this for the simple fact that i can then use my tv's aspect button to zoom letter boxed SD channels and watch them "full screen". if i used hdmi and watched an SD channel it would output 480 to the tv. my tv would only change the aspect/zoom within the 4:3 square leaving bars on the side. i wish i had this functionality with hdmi, but sadly, the 8300hdc does not allow this. yes, i tried setting my resolution with component then using hdmi but the settings dont stick.

Have you tried to use the cable box's ability to stretch the image? I remember that in Passport you could change the output scaling with the # key on the remote (which is in the same location you would find it on a touch tone phone). I do not know how to do it in Navigator (because I do not have it), but I think that Scientific Atlanta would not remove this functionality from the 8300HDC which is based on the 8300HD, which has this ability. Now, it is possible that Navigator does not have this feature.

I have a new one in the Navigator problem department. I came home to find my 8300HDC with "E-13" on the front. Nothing on the screen.

Nick,

Has it rebooted fully, or did you do a manual reboot? I think I read somewhere in my "preparations" for the Navigator upgrade that E-13 is an update code. Does anyone have additional information on the types of update codes that Navigator uses as indicated by symbols/numbers on the box?

Jack

Have you tried to use the cable box's ability to stretch the image? I remember that in Passport you could change the output scaling with the # key on the remote (which is in the same location you would find it on a touch tone phone). I do not know how to do it in Navigator (because I do not have it), but I think that Scientific Atlanta would not remove this functionality from the 8300HDC which is based on the 8300HD, which has this ability. Now, it is possible that Navigator does not have this feature.

You can choose either Stretch or Zoom or Normal in Navigator (it is somewhere under "Settings/Display" (not under "Quick Settings/Display"). Turbo Brian has it likely set to Normal. For letterboxed SD stuff, Zoom is perfect. For non-letterboxed SD stuff, you can use Stretch and then fiddle with your TV's aspect settings. Navigator's Stretch + TV's Zoom in my case produce the same picture as Navigator's Zoom + TVs Full, except that Navigator's other displays (status bar, closed captioning) are OK with Navigator's Zoom + TVs Full, but get cut off with Navigator's Stretch + TV's Zoom. So, for letterboxed stuff I suggest Navigator's Zoom + TVs Full. However, for non-letterboxed SD stuff, Navigator's Zoom + TVs Full will cut off some of usable image (top & bottom), hence you may want to use Navigator set to Stretch. In my case, the only SD I watch now is SciFi, and that's all letterboxed, so I don't have to switch back and forth. None of this is relevant with HD channels; regardless of this setting, Navigator will output the whole picture as is if it is HD channel.

You can choose either Stretch or Zoom or Normal in Navigator (it is somewhere under "Settings/Display" (not under "Quick Settings/Display").

You can't just use the '#' key to switch zoom modes?!

xnappo

Have you tried to use the cable box's ability to stretch the image? I remember that in Passport you could change the output scaling with the # key on the remote (which is in the same location you would find it on a touch tone phone). I do not know how to do it in Navigator (because I do not have it), but I think that Scientific Atlanta would not remove this functionality from the 8300HDC which is based on the 8300HD, which has this ability. Now, it is possible that Navigator does not have this feature.
It is still the the # key on navigator

I'd call,

And than ask the tech to bring out a new remote, describing the above issues. Than, when he is there, you can do side by side comparisions of the remotes. It does sound like a bad remote signal. Maybe all that's bad (or that might be going bad) is the circut signal that controls your remote commands. I would say that this is especially true if the batteries are good and everything else works. If his remote does the same as yours, than you know it's a box issue and he can replace the box.

Jack

Not a bad suggestion, BUT I heard from at least 2 very reliable folks they have the exact same symptom... and both of them are out of a different head end than I! This is way down on my list of indignities I feel TWC is visiting on us!