Follow the progress of Navigator's roll out to legacy boxes at the Milwaukee Wisconsin HDTV forum here:

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/showthread.php?p=42898#post42898

Jack

Nick,

Has it rebooted fully, or did you do a manual reboot? I think I read somewhere in my "preparations" for the Navigator upgrade that E-13 is an update code. Does anyone have additional information on the types of update codes that Navigator uses as indicated by symbols/numbers on the box?

Jack

It rebooted itself. I remember reading here (I think) that something like E-13 was an update, but the box did nothing. It has taken a long time for the Mystro screen to load, so I gave it time. Then later I manually rebooted and it came on normal. I checked the diagnostics screen and the versions are the same.

Are you talking about an upgrade from Passport or an upgrade from older Navigator to newer Navigator? 3

BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
Monitor Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26
ODN Version: 2.4.4_2---2007/06/26

It rebooted itself. I remember reading here (I think) that something like E-13 was an update, but the box did nothing. It has taken a long time for the Mystro screen to load, so I gave it time. Then later I manually rebooted and it came on normal. I checked the diagnostics screen and the versions are the same.

Are you talking about an upgrade from Passport or an upgrade from older Navigator to newer Navigator? 3

From what I remember, when people were talking about E-13 showing up on their boxes, this was happening to customers who already had a previous version of Navigator, and there was discussion as to what this code meant. Now this number COULD also show up on downloaded updates. However, it is hard to say as most users may not be watching TV during the Passport to Navigator transfer time. (I was told that this generally happens between 2-4 am, but could begin anytime after the midnight hour on the night of the conversion.) The "Update" in download format takes about 2 hours. During that time there will be a series of number codes where the time would normally appear on the box or DVR.) It will go very slowly with a letter code followed by a number, and will increment to 100. (i.e F-1, E-1 or something like that.) This is exactly what happened when my old Pioneer box was updated for daylight savings time last February. I was concerned that it was a Navigator update at that time. But, I think the box goes through that process whenever they have to do a major change to the database. But if you see that process in the future, Navigator is getting downloaded to your box. When the correct time appears in your box window, the update is completed.

Jack

with hdmi the box outputs in the channels native resolution. i switched back to component and i can specify resolutions. for example, i have selected only 720 and 1080. then if i go to a non-hd 480 channel it plays in 1080. i like this for the simple fact that i can then use my tv's aspect button to zoom letter boxed SD channels and watch them "full screen". if i used hdmi and watched an SD channel it would output 480 to the tv. my tv would only change the aspect/zoom within the 4:3 square leaving bars on the side. i wish i had this functionality with hdmi, but sadly, the 8300hdc does not allow this. yes, i tried setting my resolution with component then using hdmi but the settings dont stick.

HDMI does not let you specify resolutions because it uses the VESA Display Data Channel protocol to let the monitor tell the video source which resolutions it supports, for a plug and play setup. This reduces the number of active video scalers from the MPEG-2 decoder to the screen, improving picture quality.

Generally, a scaler inside your television will give better results than your cable box's scaler if both are provided a digital signal because televisions and monitors are designed to give the best possible image while cable boxes' main goal is to offer the lowest-cost product that customers won't reject (therefore saddling us with 160GB drives built-in to both Scientific-Atlanta and Motorola DVRs instead of 500GB drives). However, there are exceptions, especially if your HD monitor is using an analog input instead of DVI or HDMI. In such cases, it is best to experiment to see which scaler performs better.

If you want to use a stretch feature, try to see if your television can stretch it. If not, use the # key (which is located in the same place you would find it on a telephone) on your cable box remote to use the cable box's scaler to stretch the image.

HDMI does not let you specify resolutions because it uses the VESA Display Data Channel protocol to let the monitor tell the video source which resolutions it supports, for a plug and play setup. This reduces the number of active video scalers from the MPEG-2 decoder to the screen, improving picture quality.


All well and good.

Too f***ing bad it takes HDCP 5 seconds do decide a channel change is okay after a resolution change to show the channel!! This is the only reason I have my box set to 1080i only, if not for the resolution switch followed by HDCP delay, I would agree my TV can scale better. But I don't really care who scales better for 480i.

xnappo

P.S. HDCP is satan

I lost all of my saved shows! The guide in Navigator would not update past Friday, so I did the Vol+, Vol-, Info button reboot and I lost all of my saved shows. :mad: My settings are still there though. I have since recorded two shows and rebooted and the 2 shows are present still. Anyone else experience this?

I lost all of my saved shows! The guide in Navigator would not update past Friday, so I did the Vol+, Vol-, Info button reboot and I lost all of my saved shows. :mad: My settings are still there though. I have since recorded two shows and rebooted and the 2 shows are present still. Anyone else experience this?

Welcome Kruznby!

Please add your location to your profile so that we can talk about and assist in solutions to troubleshoot this problem. Navigator has been a mixed bag of success in addition to other variables involved depending on the location of the subscriber.

Jack

I lost all of my saved shows! The guide in Navigator would not update past Friday, so I did the Vol+, Vol-, Info button reboot and I lost all of my saved shows. :mad: My settings are still there though. I have since recorded two shows and rebooted and the 2 shows are present still. Anyone else experience this?

I also have had my recorded shows "disappear". The problem for me was when the box rebooted, the DVR functions did not load. Several reboots later, everything loaded like normal. But if your shows permanently disappeared, that is definately a new bug. :eek: :confused:

I also have had my recorded shows "disappear". The problem for me was when the box rebooted, the DVR functions did not load. Several reboots later, everything loaded like normal. But if your shows permanently disappeared, that is definately a new bug. :eek: :confused:

I'm fairely sure we heard a number of such things (recordings gone forever) happening 4-5-6 months ago, then it died down.

HDMI does not let you specify resolutions because it uses the VESA Display Data Channel protocol to let the monitor tell the video source which resolutions it supports, for a plug and play setup. This reduces the number of active video scalers from the MPEG-2 decoder to the screen, improving picture quality.

Generally, a scaler inside your television will give better results than your cable box's scaler if both are provided a digital signal because televisions and monitors are designed to give the best possible image while cable boxes' main goal is to offer the lowest-cost product that customers won't reject (therefore saddling us with 160GB drives built-in to both Scientific-Atlanta and Motorola DVRs instead of 500GB drives). However, there are exceptions, especially if your HD monitor is using an analog input instead of DVI or HDMI. In such cases, it is best to experiment to see which scaler performs better.

If you want to use a stretch feature, try to see if your television can stretch it. If not, use the # key (which is located in the same place you would find it on a telephone) on your cable box remote to use the cable box's scaler to stretch the image.
interesting. its kind of a moot point for me now. i added a PS3 and used my hdmi cable for that and left the component on the 8300hdc. im cheap and didnt feel like buying another cable. plus i cant tell any difference quality-wise between component and hdmi coming from the cable box.

Welcome Kruznby!

Please add your location to your profile so that we can talk about and assist in solutions to troubleshoot this problem. Navigator has been a mixed bag of success in addition to other variables involved depending on the location of the subscriber.

Jack

I updated my location and here is the info I got from the diagnostics screen:
BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
Monitor Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
ODN Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29

I also have an Apricorn eSATA enclosure with a WD5000AAKS.

Any other info I should list? So far the box has been stable for about 20hrs. :)

I updated my location and here is the info I got from the diagnostics screen:
BootStrapper Version: 2.4.3---2007/05/14
Network Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
Monitor Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29
ODN Version: 2.4.5_4---2007/08/29

I also have an Apricorn eSATA enclosure with a WD5000AAKS.

Any other info I should list? So far the box has been stable for about 20hrs. :)

Looks like all is well so far! Cool!

Jack

According to the Milwaukee HDTV forum,

Some customers got Navigator on the PIONEER (non-DVR) boxes. They said that a flaw was that the Preview Pane when opening the guide on a HD channel was blank. (I assume they mean the space on the right side of the screen.) What IS surprising (and encouraging) is that the Pioneer boxes are known to have the LEAST amount of memory of the 40 or so types of boxes and models that use TWC IPG software.

This would indicate that at least for my Wisconsin division, if they can get Navigator working with minimal to no problems on those 6+ year old Pioneer boxes, the added memory of the later boxes and DVR's should be a strong plus for Navigator's continued download. I find it interesting that it appears that TWC-Wisconsin is starting with the earlier Non-DVR boxes first.

But remember, we had the early tests in January-February here in Wisconsin where other divisions did not. Hopefully, our division knows what to expect. Oh yea, and Nextoo, if you are still around since you are from Wisconsin as well, I want to thank you for all of your help and answers about Navigator for our area.

I hope these other states get worked out concerning Navigator's bugs. With Christmas upcoming and a lot of TV watching, DVR usage, and IPG features being used, let's hope that TWC has learned from their mistakes with this software from last January.

Jack

I live in Northeast ohio. I remember reading a while back that TW was supposed to be sending out updates to old boxes around this time. We've had the channel 2 Navigator channel for months. Any idea what is going on?

I live in Northeast Ohio. I remember reading a while back that TW was supposed to be sending out updates to old boxes around this time. We've had the channel 2 Navigator channel for months. Any idea what is going on?

According to the Milwaukee HDTV forum (above) they have begun the download to some of the legacy boxes. Some got Navigator on the old HD Pioneers, (the boxes with the lesser amounts of memory) and so far only minor to no problems have been reported. Here in the Milwaukee area (Wisconsin) I am waiting for an announcement of the DVR rollout hoping (knock on wood) that my saved recordings will still be intact. The way that some have reported (at least in my division) is that about 3 days before the upgrade, you get an automated voice-mail phone call about Navigator, than possibly a card in the mail. On the night of the upgrade, (after midnight, but usually between 2-4 am) you will see coded letter-number symbols on your box that will count upwards to 100 where the time normally is.) The upgrade takes about 1-2 hours. When the time reappears on the box, the upgrade is completed. Every day, I have been watching the Milwaukee forum for a download announcement. According to the information on the Milwaukee HDTV forum, a rep at one of our TMC Stores said that the DVR boxes in circulation would have Navigator by the end of the year. My GUESS (and this is only a guess) is that they are doing the downloads grouped by box model number to have minimal problems. (In contrast,when the blanket rollout was released last year to Lincoln Nebraska, they just applied the download to all model boxes at once. Resulting in the debacle that so many have reported on this forum.)

There are (including DVR units) about 40 different model boxes that are being rented out by TWC, to which Navigator will soon be applied. Other than the test markets last year, of which the city of Milwaukee was one, there were some non DVR SA and Pace boxes that got the download last year with mixed results. The newest models that are done and came with Navigator pre-installed are the OCAP (cable card C boxes) designated by a C in the model number. If TWC is going on a box by box model basis, (grouping the same models by several thousand at a time) It's just a matter of when the download upgrade of Navigator is scheduled to "hit" your box or DVR. Within a few days, all models to which that upgrade is applied will be complete.

The best thing to do, is contact your local TWC office for information regarding the Navigator upgrade. I heard that all divisions that are currently being upgraded will have the software before the end of the first quarter 2008. States that haven't been upgraded yet, will have Navigator by the end of the second quarter of 2008. By third quarter of 2008, it is estimated that Navigator will be mainstream in all TWC divisions with new features and graphics including games and on-line polling. Right now TWC is working on stabilizing the software with a moderate but progressive rollout.

Will keep you posted as best I can.

Jack

Thanks that was helpful and informative. This "Milwaukee" forum you speak of, is there a forum for ohio or even the northeast ohio area? Thanks.

Thanks that was helpful and informative. This "Milwaukee" forum you speak of, is there a forum for Ohio or even the northeast Ohio area? Thanks.

You'd have to do a Google or Yahoo search related to TWC Navigator for the Ohio area. I know that generally the forums are independent of the cable companies. This AVS forum has been the best place to learn about cable, dish, and software equipment. The board seems to be somewhat void of people lately. Maybe it's the bad weather that we have had and power outages, people too busy during the holidays, or Navigator's bugs are finally getting fixed! I recall Ohio's TWC Navigator did have problems with the OCAP C boxes. You should contact your local Ohio office I would say for the best information that relates to your specific area.

Jack

Caller ID appeared on my Passport 8300HD today (found the options for changing CID settings on Ch. 1500). It's a nice feature and works with Call Waiting ID also - so no longer have to take the phone away from my ear to see who's calling on the other line.

I haven't watched my Navigator 8300HDC much lately - it's in the exercise room and I've been pretty lazy. It does still fail to record sometimes, but works OK after full reboots. TWC Mid-Ohio (I used to say Columbus, but these days I get a CSR in a different city every time I call) says there's a big update coming before the end of the month. None of the CSR's have had any details on fixes, but have said it's an update from the N. Carolina region. Anyone down that way have feedback on how Navigator is performing?

As for the recording failures for the past few months on the Navigator box. Once each month, I call TWC about the problems and get a DVR service credit for the month. First time, I got full credit for both the DVR and the STB, but now they will only credit the DVR service (some new memo went out to all CSR's recently) since the STB technically works fine if you were to be watching live TV. I've confirmed that that TV is never watched 'live' and is solely for recorded programming during workouts, but it made no difference to TWC.

What I want from TWC is one box that will control two TV's - like the DishNetwork offers - so I don't have to pay to rent two boxes. I know that Scientific Atlanta makes such boxes. What's it gonna take to get TWC to carry them?

What I want from TWC is one box that will control two TV's - like the DishNetwork offers - so I don't have to pay to rent two boxes. I know that Scientific Atlanta makes such boxes. What's it gonna take to get TWC to carry them?And what would be the incentive? Less revenue?

And what would be the incentive? Less revenue?

I'm not TWC's accountant, but from what I've read, there's little to no 'revenue' involved in STB rentals. Factoring in the upfront cost of an HD DVR STB box, say $300-$500 today (more just a couple years back), with the number of years it takes to recoup that investment at $8/month, it's hardly a profit stream. Even allowing for depreciation tax write offs, but not forgetting to add in interest expense on the original purchase and the inflation adjustment of rental income over time, etc, etc.

With one box on two TV's, TWC only has pay for one box upfront, and the customer only has to pay one rental fee. That has to be a win-win for both provider and customer. Not to mention the potential savings in service costs for having 1/2 the equipment in the field causing fewer potential problems and in-home service calls.

Actually, in my market they did try out multi-room DVR service amongst employees. They never rolled it out to the public because I guess internal testing proved to be a disaster. A tech I spoke with said he had it and it was a glitch laden mess. However, even that wouldn't eliminate a second STB, but it would result in a single DVR fee for the entire account. (Which is really how it should be anyway!)

... but it would result in a single DVR fee for the entire account. (Which is really how it should be anyway!)

Absolutely!! Both satellite providers do that now (depending on service package) and AT&T uVerse offers whole-house service too, and the cable companies should too. DVR service has market value, so everybody charges for it. Cable does charge less than TiVo, but really, since there's no cost involved with DVR activities, there really shouldn't be any monthly DVR fee anyway. :rolleyes:

I wonder what the problems were with the multi-room system they tested. My folks have a 2-Room DVR with DishNetwork (it's around 3 years old now), and there's been never been any problems.

I wonder what the problems were with the multi-room system they tested. My folks have a 2-Room DVR with DishNetwork (it's around 3 years old now), and there's been never been any problems.

A Dish Network 2 room setup still only uses 1 STB whereas the Scientific Atlanta unit was designed to work with any other SA non-DVR box in the home. Best I could tell was it had streaming issue and in some cases could be installation issues, IE: a customer has old splitters/amps that aren't rated for the right frequencies. In other words, the DVR unit was the center piece for all your other STB's to leech from. The idea is a good one, but apparently implementing it was a nightmare.

Getting back to Navigator and my division of TWC. If the powers that be wouldn't release a flawed version of multi-room DVR, then I have hopes that they will do the same with Navigator. Also, I will reiterate that Comcast is only going to be charging an addition $2.95 (on top of STB & standard DVR fees) for it's Tivo application. That figure sound great and keeps me wishing that Time Warner would get with Tivo and do the same!

One of the things I was hoping would come out of the OCAP ruling was an eventual switch to all SA OCAP boxes on Time Warner systems. Along with that I hopes that TW would switch all markets to SARA. Right now, we use Pioneer boxes for non-DVR boxes. Of course I originally thought of this months ago before I knew about Navigator and all of the other related problems.

That way, with Scientific Atlanta DVRs, Scientific Atlanta client boxes and SARA, a multu-room DVR would be possible. Instead, Time Warner decided to go with that hideous Navigator and now we don't even have a decent working DVR on one TV. I couldn't imagine Navigator running a MR DVR. Way to go, Time Warner! The Power of You! :D

I wonder what the problems were with the multi-room system they tested. My folks have a 2-Room DVR with DishNetwork (it's around 3 years old now), and there's been never been any problems.

I've always wondered how that works. I would like some details. Is there one box for two TVs or does each TV require a seperate box?

As for testing the MR-DVR, I'm surprised that time warner actually tested anything before releasing it. Just look at Navigator. There's no way Navigator was tested properly before being released.

I've always wondered how that works. I would like some details. Is there one box for two TVs or does each TV require a seperate box?

As for testing the MR-DVR, I'm surprised that time warner actually tested anything before releasing it. Just look at Navigator. There's no way Navigator was tested properly before being released.

The FCC imposed a hard ban of integrated security set top boxes (which are the set top boxes without CableCARDs in them) on July 1, 2007, excluding those already owned by the cable company already and therefore getting grandfathered in. Due to this deadline, TWC underestimated the time it would take to develop a new IPG and now we have this buggy mess whose reputation is rivaling Windows ME in terms of bugs. This is because TWC is not normally in the business of writing software, and therefore is more likely to mess up in estimates. However, since TWC had all the time in the world and no deadline pressure from the FCC regarding multi-room DVR, it had enough time to test multi-room DVR and ruled it out.

My personal opinion of Navigator is that it is uglier and slower than Passport, but the font it uses is easier to read than Passport's font which is too tall and narrow for easy reading. I got this opinion when I tried it out at a demonstration desk at a local mall.

Well an update on my poor man's multi room with the 8300HD...

I called Crime Warner yesterday and they said on top of the $15 I'm paying now for the 8300, it would be another $17.50 for a second one!!?? Are they kidding? More than the first one!? Uh, no thanks...

So, they will not run any coax for me, and I was just talking to my buddy today who was an electrician for 25 years, and he said there is no way to run coax from my upstairs to my downstairs if the coax is just sitting in the wall and not trough a conduit, which is how it is.

So basically CWC has me by the b@lls just like everyone else here, and I'd have to get a 2nd DVR for downstairs.

Or does anyone know of a device that will wirelessly send my TV signal downstairs?? That would work too...thanks.

Ooops, ignore that post, wrong thread...

I called Crime Warner yesterday and they said on top of the $15 I'm paying now for the 8300, it would be another $17.50 for a second one!!?? Are they kidding? More than the first one!? Uh, no thanks...

I LOVE it, Crime Warner!

If you looked closer, you probably will see you don't really pay "more" for a second box. The first box has a "converter" fee (in my market, it's $7.10). Actually, it's the rental on the most basic cable STB. Then there is a "DVR service" fee (again, for me it's 10 bucks). No matter what they call it, it's really just the additional rental fee on the box. The "DVR service is simply an additional charge for the more expensive DVR box as opposed to the non DVR box.

Or does anyone know of a device that will wirelessly send my TV signal downstairs?? That would work too...thanks.
You can find "Wireless A/V Senders" at local stores & on-line:
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&tag=mozilla-20&index=blended&link%5Fcode=qs&field-keywords=wireless%20audio%20video%20sender&sourceid=Mozilla-search
They extend composite (yellow), [sometimes S-Video], L/R and maybe IR.
So of course, it's not HD.

For example, the Lorex VS6438 includes Audio, Video and IR control signals:
http://lorexstore.lorextechnology.com/pdfs/VS6438_MANUAL_EN_R2.pdf
http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Lorex-2-4GHz-4-Channel-Wireless-Video-Sender-VS6438-VS6438/sem/rpsm/oid/192436/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-VS6438-4-channel-Wireless-Extender/dp/B00077GE7Y

Lorex also makes a less expensive model WITHOUT the IR extender:
http://www.amazon.com/Lorex-VS-6428-4-channel-Wireless-Sender/dp/B00076QD26******sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=photo&qid=1197569610&sr=1-10
http://www.beachaudio.com/Lorex/Vs6433-p-22576.html?utm_campaign=froogle&utm_content=AD_ID&utm_term=vs6433&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froogle&GTKW=vs6433&GCID=C12585x003

======================
You can also search for "component video wireless extenders" and
"HDMI wireless extenders" if you want full HD capability...but you might also
need a 1-in/2-out CV or HDMI splitter box if you need to "clone" another I/F.
At which point, another HD-STB may be easier....ooops, gotta run coax....

Thanks alot holl_ands...after posting that, I looked around and ended up on x10.com, they have a set that looks almost identical to that Lorex one for $49.99 shipped. I ordered it and will give it a shot, 30 day full refund guarantee, so there is nothing to lose.

I am new to the AVs forum but thought I would alert southeastern Wisconsin members and especially those in Kenosha Wisconsin to get ready. Received a card in the mail yesterday indicating Navigator is on the way in the next couple of days and my current box will be updated to the great new Time Warner Navigator
I live in the City of Kenosha and have the SA8300HD with Passport.
I'll keep all informed as to how this transition will go.

I am new to the AVs forum but thought I would alert southeastern Wisconsin members and especially those in Kenosha Wisconsin to get ready. Received a card in the mail yesterday indicating Navigator is on the way in the next couple of days and my current box will be updated to the great new Time Warner Navigator
I live in the City of Kenosha and have the SA8300HD with Passport.
I'll keep all informed as to how this transition will go.

Thank you Kenoman,

I am in Metro-Milwaukee Wisconsin here as well. I currently have an SA 8300 with Passport so the DVR "upgrade" is coming for both of us. We can keep the others on the forum posted with the new information.

You can also register at the Milwaukee HD TV forum. Here is a link to a specific thread about new Navigator news for our area:

http://www.milwaukeehdtv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7156

You might want to look at that, as well as register and post in there as well. I am a member there as well. (Screen Name= Jack 1000)

As a sidenote, have you heard about how TWC is doing this rollout to the existing boxes in the field? Are they doing the non-DVR boxes first and than the DVR boxes after that? Are they going by city, box model numbers, or nodes? (Nodes are similar to neighborhoods within a community, for example a sub-division.) Right now my concern is losing my existing DVR recordings.

I have also gone to the TWC Southeast Wisconsin website:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/Milwaukee/Products/Cable/mdn/MDN_Intro.html

And from the Navigator info page, studied and printed the Navigator screens.

Will keep everyone posted!

Jack

Originally Posted by slickshoes
I called Crime Warner yesterday and they said on top of the $15 I'm paying now for the 8300, it would be another $17.50 for a second one!!?? Are they kidding? More than the first one!? Uh, no thanks...

Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy
...No matter what they call it, it's really just the additional rental fee on the box. The "DVR service is simply an additional charge for the more expensive DVR box as opposed to the non DVR box.
Actually TWC in my area does charge an additional $2.50 for 2nd+ TVs with "digital service" (i.e., a box). The rent and DVR service fee is identical for each. So, a second DVR for me would also be $2.50 more as is a second non-DVR box + $2.50 to rental.
/Dan

I am new to the AVs forum but thought I would alert southeastern Wisconsin members and especially those in Kenosha Wisconsin to get ready. Received a card in the mail yesterday indicating Navigator is on the way in the next couple of days and my current box will be updated to the great new Time Warner Navigator
I live in the City of Kenosha and have the SA8300HD with Passport.
I'll keep all informed as to how this transition will go.

I'd be curious what version you get of Navigator - let us know which version get's download to your box.

I LOVE it, Crime Warner!

If you looked closer, you probably will see you don't really pay "more" for a second box. The first box has a "converter" fee (in my market, it's $7.10). Actually, it's the rental on the most basic cable STB. Then there is a "DVR service" fee (again, for me it's 10 bucks). No matter what they call it, it's really just the additional rental fee on the box. The "DVR service is simply an additional charge for the more expensive DVR box as opposed to the non DVR box.

In the Charlotte NC area: the cost of digital cable includes 1 standard STB. If you want digital cable on a 2nd TV then you have to pay for a 2nd STB or a cable card for the TV, if you want to access the encrypted channels. A DVR replaces the STB, so you have to pay an additonal fee for the DVR which is a more expensive unit. If your TV has a QAM tuner, you can view the local digital channels (including HD channels) without a STB.

I am new to the AVs forum but thought I would alert southeastern Wisconsin members and especially those in Kenosha Wisconsin to get ready. Received a card in the mail yesterday indicating Navigator is on the way in the next couple of days and my current box will be updated to the great new Time Warner Navigator
I live in the City of Kenosha and have the SA8300HD with Passport.
I'll keep all informed as to how this transition will go.

Oh boy! What we know is that there is a separate version of Craptigator meant for the 8300HD boxes; that the software needed to be "changed" to run on a box with more limited RAM. Which means that you could have issues that might NOT be shared with the same software running on a 8300HDC box because while it's the same software, it HAS to be a very different version.

Given their history with software my expectations is that the problems may be far WORSE than what is being faced by 8300HDC box owners. In ANY case, please remember to reiterate you have it running on a 8300HD box, that is a CRITICAL piece of information!~

I'm not sure if I posted this before in here,

But there was a report that someone from the Milwaukee area got Navigator on a Pioneer HD box. (I thought that those boxes were the oldest models and therefore had the least memory.) This was a non-DVR box and they said that the only complaint that they had was that the Preview Screen when opened was blank. (I assume they are talking about the VOD channels were you can preview movies before you order them.) I am assuming (knock on wood) that because TWC-Wisconsin went through the disastrous test phase back in January, that they have (again, knock on wood.) worked out the bugs.

If an old HD Pioneer box can handle Navigator than I think that the more memory DVR's should be able to handle it. Wouldn't it be something if the cable cards in the OCAP boxes were the result of most of these problems? All I know is that there are going to be some justifiably PO people if this is still Crapigator! We have Nextoo, a user from Wisconsin and he reported no problems, and maybe one other Wisconsin user that said Navigator was OK. But that's it. No one, and I MEAN NO ONE, (OTHER THAN TWC EMPLOYEES) IS PRACTICING ANY CHEERLEADING ROUTINES OVER THIS THING!

Jack

I've always wondered how that works. I would like some details. Is there one box for two TVs or does each TV require a seperate box?

Dish's 2-room boxes have remotes that use both infrared and radio frequencies. So they put one box in one room, and run cables from it to two TV's (one in that same room and one in another). The TV's are identified as #1 and #2. The remote for watching TV in the 2nd room contacts the box in the other room by radio frequency.

Both rooms have nearly full functionality, but there's a switch button on the box to change between how the tuners operate. (I'm a little cloudy on this, since they don't use the 2nd TV in the bedroom much.) In one mode, each room has one tuner and separate viewing options, and in the other mode, the main room has both tuners and the 2nd room watches whatever is being watched in the 1st room. Both rooms can access recorded shows on the DVR, but not sure if can watch different recordings at the same time. (My folk's DVR is about 3 yrs old, so the latest models may work the same or differently.)


Separately - I've read that AT&T uVerse has whole house DVR. It uses one DVR STB and multiple non-DVR STB's in other rooms. I'm not sure if the DVR STB communicates with the other boxes via WiFi or over the home's phone lines (which is the source for uVerse's signal - same as DSL).

I don't even know why I'm here. Just to cry on everyone's shoulder, I think.
I started out to ask what an E-13 was, but in the middle of registering, TW called me back and had me reboot and it finally came up.

Sounds like L-13 is OK but E-13 is an error.

I am on Time Warner NEO (notheast Ohio). They really suck. At least in my area.

My cable went out Weds afternoon. They could not schedule a tech until Monday, but they said I could go in and swap out my box if I wanted to save time. Two phone techs on two different days told me to swap out the box. I didn't really think it was he box because there are always problems in my area and it is always the signal. But I finally caved and swapped it.

I did not know that the new box SA8300HDC would come with this Navigator crap. I was perfectly happy with Passport.

Now that my box is finally rebooted and loaded (45 minutes on the phone with Support, waiting for L13 -> L1) now I still have no viewable channels, BUT I gave up my good Passport box for this piece of Java junk Navigator. Not only is it slow, but it seems to lack simple features like paging through the channels 100 at time. And I think the picture actually looks inferior, but that could just be my hatred for TW making me irrational.

Wow I really hate this thing and cannot emphasize how much Time Warner sucks.
:(
-Marty

Marty - it may only delay the inevitable, but you could try taking the new 8300HDC box with Navigator back to the service office and requesting an used 8300HD box with Passport. It'll be hit or miss as to whether they have one in stock, and I don't think a call to customer service can help determine inventory, but it's worth a try. Then again, all the boxes will be on Navigator before long. Good luck.

Also - How long has your area been serviced by TWC? Have they been there all along, or is your area a recent purchase by TWC from another provider? Areas that have always been with TWC, like Columbus, usually have a good service record (Navigator not withstanding), but for newly converted areas, it can take years for service to improve as older tech is replaced, etc.

No one, and I MEAN NO ONE, (OTHER THAN TWC EMPLOYEES) IS PRACTICING ANY CHEERLEADING ROUTINES OVER THIS THING!

Jack

I took back my SA8300HDC/Navigator box to the Time Warner Akron office yesterday. The interesting thing is when the woman saw the box she said, "It's one of the OCAP boxes. We've had trouble with these." Then she said, "I'll give you an older one." She went to the cabinet and pulled out a SA8300HD(no C) with Passport! :D My face lit up like a little kid on Christmas morning! :D :D :)

I told her abput my other problems(the audio drop-out, the "channel not available", recordings being erased, frequent reboots) and she was typing for awhile. I think she was typing a complaint on the computer(I hope). I like to think maybe(just maybe) I helped to stop the spread of Navigator!

Well, it makes sense. I mean look at this from a CSR standpoint. It's a nightmare! You are constantly fielding calls from unhappy customers for the same problem over and over. That alone is a massive waste of resources by TWC. I also like the fact that they reverted back to allowing customers to use the older software. Navigator has got to be costing TWC much more than if they just paid a licensing fee for an upgrade. I still wish they would at look to cut a deal with Tivo. I'd happily pay them the extra $3 a month for that! If not, I'll keep my SARA software. Sure, it's ugly and the search is worthless, but in over two years I can only recall two times where it missed a recording for no apparent reason. I want that kind of reliability!

I just got a OCRAP box and want to look at the diagnostic pages to see the version number. I tried holding select until the mail Icon showed and then pushed INFO, but did not get any results other than the screen showed me the current program name.

Now I have a Passport and OCRAP box. I will not let TWC in my house to replace the Passport box. I have to agree, TWC management needs to be replaced. :mad::mad:

Well, it makes sense. I mean look at this from a CSR standpoint. It's a nightmare! You are constantly fielding calls from unhappy customers for the same problem over and over. That alone is a massive waste of resources by TWC. I also like the fact that they reverted back to allowing customers to use the older software. Navigator has got to be costing TWC much more than if they just paid a licensing fee for an upgrade. I still wish they would at look to cut a deal with Tivo. I'd happily pay them the extra $3 a month for that! If not, I'll keep my SARA software. Sure, it's ugly and the search is worthless, but in over two years I can only recall two times where it missed a recording for no apparent reason. I want that kind of reliability!

Great Points!

In all these areas where Navigator has been so problematic, can you imagine those poor CSR reps taking the same calls for the same problems over and over and over again? This has to be as you said, a PR nightmare! TWC should have just paid the rental fees to the outside vendors for an upgrade. This will be even more noticeable if there are these types of issues when the Sara IPG's are converted, which have been reported on this forum, represent an even larger customer base than Passport.

An excellent point has been raised. Those who have had TWC for years and years who have not originally been with a prior company, (Our area has been TWC since 1990) stand a better chance with Navigator than TWC's transition with a prior company and head-end system. (i.e This would include TWC taking over a recent acquisition from example Adelphia or Comcast.) The big test of Navigator would be getting through those first 3-4 weeks with little to no problems from the box. If you get a good foundational area that has been TWC for a long time, a strong head end system, and a good box for the first 3 weeks to a month, I see no reason why a customer could not get several years out of that box and Navigator. If however, you have had box problems that are major before Navigator or after the Navigator upgrade with a location that was only recently changed over to TWC, you could have problems.

The thing is, not everyone is going to have the patience or the ability to just keep swapping out their boxes by themselves. So it's still a crap-shoot as to how well Navigator behaves in each area. Watch your box for those three weeks after the change over. (I'm not calling this an upgrade yet, far too crappy in too many areas.) A stable box seems to be the main ingredient in Navigator's performance.

Jack

Now I have a Passport and OCRAP box. I will not let TWC in my house to replace the Passport box. I have to agree, TWC management needs to be replaced. :mad::mad:

The thing is, not everyone is going to have the patience or the ability to just keep swapping out their boxes by themselves. So it's still a crap-shoot as to how well Navigator behaves in each area. Watch your box for those three weeks after the change over. (I'm not calling this an upgrade yet, far too crappy in too many areas.) A stable box seems to be the main ingredient in Navigator's performance.

Jack

Did I miss something? Is TW continuing to "downgrade" existing Passport/SARA boxes to Navigator? I'm getting scared now. I just got a Passport box and then I read about "replacing" Passport boxes. They'll have to pry my Passport box out of my cold, dead hands! As far as I know, Akron has been Time Warner or with the Warner company since the 70s(WAAAAAAY before my time!) and the CSR at the office said they have had trouble with OCAP boxes. If they are giving out old boxes, I can't see a switch happening anytime soon.

I just got a OCRAP box and want to look at the diagnostic pages to see the version number. I tried holding select until the mail Icon showed and then pushed INFO, but did not get any results other than the screen showed me the current program name.


Press the down arrow button instead of the Info button.

Did I miss something? Is TW continuing to "downgrade" existing Passport/SARA boxes to Navigator? I'm getting scared now. I just got a Passport box and then I read about "replacing" Passport boxes. They'll have to pry my Passport box out of my cold, dead hands! As far as I know, Akron has been Time Warner or with the Warner company since the 70s(WAAAAAAY before my time!) and the CSR at the office said they have had trouble with OCAP boxes. If they are giving out old boxes, I can't see a switch happening anytime soon.

Well for my division,

Several people in neighboring cities recently got cards in the mail that said Navigator was coming to their area within the next several days, meaning that for Milwaukee Wisconsin and the Metro areas, the downloads to existing boxes have begun. What I read a few months ago on a Milwaukee forum was that someone reported that they went to one of the TWC service stores and tried to exchange an OCAP box for a non-OCAP (No C) box. The counter lady said that they were out of those boxes and that all areas with existing boxes were supposed to have Navigator by the end of the year. (This was back in mid August.) But she meant AFAIK the Wisconsin division, where we have had less problems for whatever reasons.

So what all of us Wisconsinites are doing who have access to this information is waiting for our cards, watching what is on our DVR's and looking to back up any program data that is valuable just to hope that things go ok.

Sadly, for areas with problems, there have been no reports of going back to Passport. There have been reports of a delay depending on your state/division till the end of the first quarter of 2008 before Navigator is deployed via download to work out the bugs. TWC areas who have not been tested with Navigator yet may not begin giving out or downloading the new guide to boxes until the second quarter of next year.

Because of the thousands and thousands of used/refurbished boxes/DVR's that are still in circulation and have not received Navigator through a download, you MIGHT be able to get a used non-C box up until the end of the second quarter of next year. Once we get into July of next year, if TWC stays with this plan, the non-C boxes will be phased out completely. By third quarter of 2009, Navigator is expected to be nationwide in all TWC divisions. In this business, change can occur overnight. However, I think that some divisions are keeping the old boxes around until they know that Navigator is stable. In the meantime, if you are having Navigator problems and you are on your 3rd box (or more) you should do the following:

1.) Visit your local office or get a service appointment for to swap your box for a non-C model. (This assumes that Navigator has NOT been downloaded to older models in your area.)

2.) Keep complaining about Navigator's problems, if applicable to your division. There is safety in numbers and the more people who complain the more likely you will get a download delay in your division. E-mail is good, but letters to office managerial heads are even better.

3.) Hold on to your non-C boxes for as long as you can if you are in a bad Navigator division!

If you are in a division with a good Navigator experience (amazingly, some divisions are reporting almost no problems, although they are in the minority.) take your time to learn the new features and functions, fill out the surveys from your local TWC provider that may be found on the websites or mailed to you, and communicate your ideas often. Those divisions with better track records for Navigator should find some ways of communicating across state lines to get this software up to Passport/Sara standards. The problems that so many are reporting with this "upgrade?" have made TWC on a national level a PR nightmare. But I think the divisions where Navigator really is "Crapigator" NEED the bad PR to get them to fix the bugs!

Even though satellite dishes are not an option for so many people, could you imagine the field day that Direct TV and Dish have to be having with Navigator's reported problems?! I could see a billboard byline now:

"IF YOU THINK YOU HAD CABLE PROBLEMS BEFORE.............LOOK OUT FOR THE NAVIGATOR!!!! DON'T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU!!! SWITCH TO DIRECT TV/DISH TODAY!"

The problem is that Navigator has not been rolled out in enough divisions yet to get this kind of PR. To be fair to TWC, I have had good service with them for over 20 years. I think that their Digital Phone and Road Runner is FABULOUS! But as for those older boxes DVR's in answer to your question, some offices still have them in inventory as back up. It would be nice if TWC would pay for the outside Passport/Sara updates. But a cable rep said that they have spent so much money on Navigator that they feel obligated to get it working. The big question for problem divisions, is how much longer is Navigator going to continue to have these problems?

Jack

I took back my SA8300HDC/Navigator box to the Time Warner Akron office yesterday. The interesting thing is when the woman saw the box she said, "It's one of the OCAP boxes. We've had trouble with these." Then she said, "I'll give you an older one." She went to the cabinet and pulled out a SA8300HD(no C) with Passport! :D My face lit up like a little kid on Christmas morning! :D :D :)

I told her abput my other problems(the audio drop-out, the "channel not available", recordings being erased, frequent reboots) and she was typing for awhile. I think she was typing a complaint on the computer(I hope). I like to think maybe(just maybe) I helped to stop the spread of Navigator!

Very interesting, Once again showing that "policy" at TW is far more local than they let on. Absolutely nobody in my TWC system has reported being able to, or just by luck getting a HD box after 7/1. THAT seeming local policy actually makes a kind of sense to me, given that most of what we know comes from observation and not documentation.

Jack, as far as we can tell, in NYC they are NOT giving out HD boxes at all. At least according to AVS members posting!

Our "mystery" is a Samsung box. Apparently used by TWC in some demo they ran this past year... and one solitary post about it.

Marty - it may only delay the inevitable, but you could try taking the new 8300HDC box with Navigator back to the service office and requesting an used 8300HD box with Passport. It'll be hit or miss as to whether they have one in stock, and I don't think a call to customer service can help determine inventory, but it's worth a try. Then again, all the boxes will be on Navigator before long. Good luck.

Also - How long has your area been serviced by TWC? Have they been there all along, or is your area a recent purchase by TWC from another provider? Areas that have always been with TWC, like Columbus, usually have a good service record (Navigator not withstanding), but for newly converted areas, it can take years for service to improve as older tech is replaced, etc.
Thanks for the reply, Rob.

This area has always been Time Warner, but I have only been here 4 years. Prior to that I, too, was in Columbus, 14 years in Hilliard, and had excellent service from TW on both TV and RoadRunner.

When I moved up to NE Ohio, my neighbors told me do not waste your time, you'll never be happy with TW. I had fair to acceptable TV service and good RR service for a year or two. Then my RR completely went to hell. It would not stay up for 15 minutes straight. It would drop out and come back in under a minute. The outages were so short that when the phone CSRs would look up the stats, they could not detect the outage. They would tell me it has been up for 14 days as I was telling them, "No, the light is out even as we speak". These short outages would not prevent you from surfing the web, but they were disastrous for the VPN connection I need for my job.

We fought this problem for about three months. I knew the cable guys by name. I had the phone number of the local support coordinator, and she would even call to check on me. My boss was getting tired of hearing about my connectivity problems and so was I.

Of course one of TW's answers was that I should buy "Business Class" if I am using RR for work. I said that is BS. It's going to be the same piece of wire coming to my house. If you can make it work for Business Class you can make it work for regular class.

On the same day I signed a one-year contract for DSL, the cable guy came and confessed. He said that the problems with my RoadRunner had been caused by the network changes they were making to support Digital Phone. They had known what the problem was all along but were using me as a kind of test case because they needed to get the bugs worked out. He said they could put me back on the "old" system and I would have my reliable service again. I said no because that would only be an interim solution. Eventually the "old" system would go away and I would be out of business again. Plus, I had already committed to DSL.

Now I'm sort of in the same position with their video service (although unfortunately I have not found a way to get paid for watching TV). I like TW's offerings when they work, but they just have too many problems too often.

I really do not want two ugly dishes on top of my house and more holes drilled in the walls, but TW is leaving me no alternative. They just will not fix their stuff. I am paying $100 per month for absolutely lousy service. Besides the recurring poor signal on the wires, now they throw this crappy software into the mix and I foresee not being able to watch much TV, at least via cable.

Had I known about Navigator, I would have kept my Passport box, but I only discovered this forum after having problems and Googling about them.

-Marty

I know I have asked this question before>If anyone with Sara software gets Navigator please let us know. I have Sara at my home in Greensboro NC and Passport at my beach house.Both systems perform very very well.I like Passports search engine and looks better but feel Sara has Passport beat in recording options.Both are very good stable systems.If Navigator does not perform as well as SARA/PASSport when i get it its DirectTV for me.I will give TWC a three month shakedown period then i'm done.Thankfullu still have sara 1.89.17.1 at home and Passport at the beach.I do shutter because the new boxes at the oast are Navigator so am holding on to my passprt box to the bitter end. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I'm running the most current version of SARA on my SA8300HD and I can assure you that once it switches to Navigator I will make it known here. At last check with my local office they were issuing 8300HDC boxes, but they were running the SARA software.

Very interesting, Once again showing that "policy" at TW is far more local than they let on. Absolutely nobody in my TWC system has reported being able to, or just by luck getting a HD box after 7/1. THAT seeming local policy actually makes a kind of sense to me, given that most of what we know comes from observation and not documentation.

Do you mean they are out of HD boxes? Since 7/1? :confused:


The nice thing about Scientific Atlanta is they put the manufacture date on the bottom of the box. Look at the white sticker. The non-OCAP box I got on Thursday was manufactured on 5/25/2007. It must be one of the last non-OCAP boxes made. The OCAP box I took back was made sometime in June.

Jack, as far as we can tell, in NYC they are NOT giving out HD boxes at all. At least according to AVS members posting!



? Last week at the TWC service center on 23rd St in NYC, I was given a Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC , loaded with a CableCard and Navigator, and a new/different remote (URSE-8800L-TWY) , when I traded in my standard def Scientific Atlantic STB.

? Last week at the TWC service center on 23rd St in NYC, I was given a Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC , loaded with a CableCard and Navigator, and a new/different remote (URSE-8800L-TWY) , when I traded in my standard def Scientific Atlantic STB.What he meant is that TWC in NYC is NOT handing out any non-CableCARD cable boxes. The old ones (the SA8300HDs) run Passport, which is relatively stable and rouble-free). They (TW) are only handing out CableCARD equipped boxes (SA8300HDC which, in NYC at least, runs the new, and trouble prone Navigator.

The FCC "Integration Ban" prohibits cable companies from deploying NEW cable boxes with "Integrated Security". At the moment, that means that the boxes must use CableCARDs. It is legally permissable for TW to "recycle" old cable boxes that don't use CableCARDs, but TW NYC has apparently chosen not to. That is apparently what Riverside_Guy means by they are not handing out "HD" DVRs (instead of "HDC" DVRs).

? Last week at the TWC service center on 23rd St in NYC, I was given a Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC , loaded with a CableCard and Navigator, and a new/different remote (URSE-8800L-TWY) , when I traded in my standard def Scientific Atlantic STB.RG is referring to just an HD box with Passport. Not an HDC as in Crapigator, AKA Navigator.:cool:

Ya beat me by a New York minute Dave.:eek:;)

Ya beat me by a New York minute Dave.:eek:;)By a frozen, snowed-in, Western New York minute.:D

Thanks, all clear now.

So far I've only had to reboot the 8300HDC/Navigator once...guess I'm lucky? ;>

Also just figured out how to download Diagnostics.

I've had to reboot mine twice in 4 days, first time all the channels slowly disappeared, as in no signal, over a period of about 15 minutes, had to reboot. Then yesterday I couldn't pause or rewind a live show. I could pull up a recorded show and the these functions were fine, had to reboot.

BTW: What's with watching something recorded and then come back to the channel you were on and not be able to rewind? I could do that with the old box without recording the live channel.

What he meant is that TWC in NYC is NOT handing out any non-CableCARD cable boxes. The old ones (the SA8300HDs) run Passport, which is relatively stable and rouble-free). They (TW) are only handing out CableCARD equipped boxes (SA8300HDC which, in NYC at least, runs the new, and trouble prone Navigator.

The FCC "Integration Ban" prohibits cable companies from deploying NEW cable boxes with "Integrated Security". At the moment, that means that the boxes must use CableCARDs. It is legally permissable for TW to "recycle" old cable boxes that don't use CableCARDs, but TW NYC has apparently chosen not to. That is apparently what Riverside_Guy means by they are not handing out "HD" DVRs (instead of "HDC" DVRs).

Thanks. Now I get it. For awhile my local TWC was also giving out 8300DHCs with Navigator. The one I had came from a service call. Someone else I know actually got one from the office in November, so I was assuming that's all they were giving out now. Getting a Passport was really a shock. I was ready to complain and argue, but she just gave one to me.

It seems like a local thing, I'm thinking a problem at the head-end. A day or so before I took the box back, it shut off and rebooted. When it came back on, it didn't work and I had L-13 and E-13 on the front panel. The Passport box in the bedroom worked. The woman at the office mentioned that their system was down the other day, that's why it wasn't booting right. She even admitted that they are having problems with Navigator. It looks like and I hope they are scrapping Navigator here(for now).

BTW: What's with watching something recorded and then come back to the channel you were on and not be able to rewind? I could do that with the old box without recording the live channel.

That's another flaw in the Navigator software. The recording buffer only works on the channel you are watching and while the box is on. On Passport, the recoeding buffer works on both tuners(main and PIP) and continues to buffer even while watching a recording or when the box is off.

It's a small thing, but it is very irritating when youturn on the TV or are doen with a recording and can't rewind. :mad:

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but isn't TWC (or any provider for that matter) supposed to give it's subs at least 30 days notice before they make any programming changes? TWC just snuck some channels into a "Sorts Tier" without any notice whatsoever! I actually don't watch sports programming, but I do watch the Outdoor Channel and had many shows set to record. I started to realize these shows were not taping and went to the channel to find it "Not Authorized". I called TWC and was then informed that it is now part of the "Sports Tier" and would cost me an extra $3 a month. I complained that I was give no such notice of this change in programming and the CSR re-authorized it free for one year. What I don't get is why a lifestyle channel has been placed in the sports tier. This is just another thing TWC is doing to push me away as a sub and another reason we need Ala carte programming. I'm willing to pay for Outdoor Channel, but not all the other crap in that tier! Navigator will be another push toward dumping service....

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but isn't TWC (or any provider for that matter) supposed to give it's subs at least 30 days notice before they make any programming changes? TWC just snuck some channels into a "Sorts Tier" without any notice whatsoever!I caught a message a while ago from TW indicating that they were putting those notices in legal notices in the paper! Don't know if that is a local or a national policy. Also, I believe that they have to give notice if they drop channels or move to a different tier. Not so sure about ADDING channels. You wouldn't think that they would have to give notice for that.

They did add the NHL Network and the day they launched it other channels were moved into this new sports tier. I was getting Outdoor channel for the past two years in my standard digital line up. The did put put notice on the website announcing the changes to "make room" for the NHL Network and said "Sports Tier" but nothing about moving other channels into that tier.

Here is the LINK if you want to see the announcement (http://www.timewarnercable.com/centralny/programming/programnews.html)

Also, the usually do announce any additions on this same page. My point is that they reduced my level of programming without giving me notice and bill is basically going up as a result!

I'm not trying to hijack the thread, but isn't TWC (or any provider for that matter) supposed to give it's subs at least 30 days notice before they make any programming changes? TWC just snuck some channels into a "Sorts Tier" without any notice whatsoever! I actually don't watch sports programming, but I do watch the Outdoor Channel and had many shows set to record. I started to realize these shows were not taping and went to the channel to find it "Not Authorized". I called TWC and was then informed that it is now part of the "Sports Tier" and would cost me an extra $3 a month. I complained that I was give no such notice of this change in programming and the CSR re-authorized it free for one year. What I don't get is why a lifestyle channel has been placed in the sports tier. This is just another thing TWC is doing to push me away as a sub and another reason we need Ala carte programming. I'm willing to pay for Outdoor Channel, but not all the other crap in that tier! Navigator will be another push toward dumping service....

WOW, your TW keeps you better informed than they do in Ohio. We usually get a notice on the bill and the programming notices page online looks as if it hasn't been changed in months. It's fun to flip through the channels and see what's been added or what's been removed. Recently they moved CSPAN2 and ESPN Classic up to the digital tier(no extra charge) without any notice. There's just a barker on screen that says the channel has been moved.

As for those sports tiers, I HATE that! :mad::mad: Those crooks try to get you by putting certain channels into tiers. Like the "variety tier" to get Boomerang or the "Sports Tier" to get Fuel, CSTV, NBA and Tennis. You really are paying around $3 for two or three channels.

Thought I would share this reply from TWC when I asked them when I could expect the upgrade with everyone.

Thank you for writing to Time Warner Cable.

Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing. This upgrade is being performed one converter model at a time to insure its completion without any problems. While the upgrade is taking longer than expected, our programmers are working as quickly as possible to bring this new service to all of our Customers. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the upgraded software. The upgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07. Your patience in the mean time is greatly appreciated.

Currently SA8300HD Passport in Kenosha, WI.

"Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing."

LOL! Yep, it's much more fun to have constant reboots, missed recordings, and less functionality! Some enhancement!

I've got a cable guy coming in 2 - 4 hours, supposedly. He was supposed to come prepared to swap out the box, which I just did on Friday (that's how I got stuck with Navigator instead of Passport).

If he happens to have a Passport box on the truck, I'm going to try to get him to swap me back to Passport. Even if it's for only a few months it's better than nothing. If I can make it to spring I can contemplate a satellite dish instead.

They could fix a lot of software problems in a few months. (hey - it could happen...;) )

Anybody know the deadline for NE Ohio's conversion to Navigator? If it's year-end, not even worth the hassle to swap and swap again.

Thanks,
-Marty

"Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing."

LOL! Yep, it's much more fun to have constant reboots, missed recordings, and less functionality! Some enhancement!

Oh S**T!!!

Crapigator's Coming by year's end!!! The quote SHOULD READ:


"Crime Warner Cable is downgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Crapigator system, which will frustrate your television viewing!"

"Thank you for being exploited by Crime Warner Cable."

Jack

Well, 1st quarter of 2008 is coming up fast. This should get interesting seeing as how the head honcho of TWC in our region has forecast that Navigator deployment will start in this time period. When it happens, I will give it 3 months. I'd also like to see how it will perform on a system that was based upon SARA and not Passport. No one seems to have seen Crapigator on a SARA system. With any luck it will be fine, but I'm not holding my breathe. If after 3 months the problems that others have been reporting all along are still present, I will be calling DirecTV.

Oh S**T!!!

Crapigator's Coming by year's end!!! The quote SHOULD READ:


"Crime Warner Cable is downgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Crapigator system, which will frustrate your television viewing!"

"Thank you for being exploited by Crime Warner Cable."

Jack

:D :D :D :D :D

AN IMPORTANT TIP ON THE NAVIGATOR SOFTWARE:

I found this out from someone who had Navigator problems and spoke to a supervisor tech. If you are having Navigator problems when you call, HAVE THEM CHECK THE SIGNAL COMING INTO YOUR HOME. He said that a lot of Navigator's issues that aren't box related are coming from weak signals being transmitted to the home. Have them bring a reader, and if necessary replace any cables that show evidence of weak signal strength.

Jack

I get what you're saying Jack, but I must have a different perspective than you. Maybe I've just had a different experience than some, but I pretty much always believe the problem is the signal coming to the box rather than the box or the sofware running the box.

Isn't the main reason they come to your house to check those signals and wires?

Like I said, maybe this depends on where you live and if you're in an area where they regularly have signal problems, then you're accustomed to that being the problem.

Anyway, my cable guy has now come & gone, doing absolutely nothing to help the situation. The cable has been working fine for the last 36 hours or so. Now I'm just trying to get used to the Crapigator ;) software.

The cable guy was nice & honest and told me they are having lots of problems with Crapigator and that there is no way to get an old Passport box because the warehouses won't even issue them to the cable guys any more. He also admitted that the TW had taken over doing the software, which was previously farmed out to someone who knew what they were doing. And he said that if I had kept my old box it would have been updated to Crapigator soon enough anyway, by order of Uncle Sam. This jives with what I've heard from other sources.

I learned one new thing. He said that before they started distributing Crapigator boxes to customers, TW gave it to the employees so they could become familiar with it AND give feedback. The feedback must have fallen on deaf ears because I can't imagine those people didn't have the same problems as everyone else (except they're not paying $100/mo for this piece of junk).

This fellow said he did not become that familiar with Crapigator because he quickly swapped his box for a Passport unit.

Oh well. At least mine is working for the moment.

-Marty

Thought I would share this reply from TWC when I asked them when I could expect the upgrade with everyone.

Thank you for writing to Time Warner Cable.

Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing. This upgrade is being performed one converter model at a time to insure its completion without any problems. While the upgrade is taking longer than expected, our programmers are working as quickly as possible to bring this new service to all of our Customers. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the upgraded software. The upgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07. Your patience in the mean time is greatly appreciated.

Currently SA8300HD Passport in Kenosha, WI.

Don't forget to watch every show you've recorded before then!

If they can erase hard drive recordings doing point fixes to Passport imagine the havoc they can wreak upgrading the entire box to a new OS.

Yea, you will most likely lose all your recordings. The problem here is that TWC (to my knowledge) never gives a date as to when they are going to download the software to users boxes. They just do it without warning, other than the generic notice like the one above.

Yea, you will most likely lose all your recordings. The problem here is that TWC (to my knowledge) never gives a date as to when they are going to download the software to users boxes. They just do it without warning, other than the generic notice like the one above.

Exactly Ben,

You MIGHT get a card in the mail or a voice mail sales pitch phone message about the "Crapigator" downgrade, but even that is a crap shoot. And even if you do, they generally don't give a specific date for the changeover.

However, last January I had an old Passport box and got a "Crapigator" notice in the mail about a "downgrade", with a date that was like two days away at best. Thankfully, nothing happened. But all of these cable companies have been doing updates/changes without warning. Their websites are supposed to have update info, but often they do not.

Jack

I get what you're saying Jack, but I must have a different perspective than you. Maybe I've just had a different experience than some, but I pretty much always believe the problem is the signal coming to the box rather than the box or the software running the box.

Isn't the main reason they come to your house to check those signals and wires?

Like I said, maybe this depends on where you live and if you're in an area where they regularly have signal problems, then you're accustomed to that being the problem.

Anyway, my cable guy has now come & gone, doing absolutely nothing to help the situation. The cable has been working fine for the last 36 hours or so. Now I'm just trying to get used to the Crapigator ;) software.

The cable guy was nice & honest and told me they are having lots of problems with Crapigator and that there is no way to get an old Passport box because the warehouses won't even issue them to the cable guys any more. He also admitted that the TW had taken over doing the software, which was previously farmed out to someone who knew what they were doing. And he said that if I had kept my old box it would have been updated to Crapigator soon enough anyway, by order of Uncle Sam. This jives with what I've heard from other sources.

I learned one new thing. He said that before they started distributing Crapigator boxes to customers, TW gave it to the employees so they could become familiar with it AND give feedback. The feedback must have fallen on deaf ears because I can't imagine those people didn't have the same problems as everyone else (except they're not paying $100/mo for this piece of junk).

This fellow said he did not become that familiar with Crapigator because he quickly swapped his box for a Passport unit.

Oh well. At least mine is working for the moment.

-Marty

Thanks for the info Marty,

A favor to ask if it would be possible for everyone to put their city or closest nearby city in their profiles, so that as Crapigator gets released, we can talk about and diagnose any issues that come up, and who knows, maybe some improvements from the early releases of last year. Let's hope so!

Jack

Just a bit of info Jack pertaining to my location. I'm one of the fortunate few who live in a crossover DMA. That means I'm legally capable of cable carriage for my neighboring DMA which is Utica. However, for all intents and purposes, I fall under the Syracuse DMA. This was of great benefit to me because I can get all the network HD content for the past couple years that Utica doesn't have or is just getting now.

The oddity here is that Time Warner maintains three different headends to serve these two DMA's. (Not so much odd because of the mileage they are covering) One for Utica which is only 20 miles away, one for Rome where I live, and one for Syracuse which is my assigned FCC DMA and is over 40 miles away. That's just for the major areas. I believe they have another headend that covers rural areas up north too! Confused yet? Anyway, due to this DMA situation where they decided to split Oneida County right down the middle, we now have many areas with different channels line ups.

So, when people from Central New York post here it would be helpful to specify where in CNY you are. IE: Rome, Syracuse, Utica, Booneville, etc.

You guys will like this!

I have this vision of TWC releasing this just before Christmas to thousands of people. (Gee, what perfect timing!!!! hahahaha!) So I wrote this little jingle that maybe some "disgruntled" TWC employees could put inside of Christmas cards:

(Sung to "Holly Jolly Christmas")

HAVE A NAVIGATOR (A.K.A CRAPIGATOR) CHRISTMAS

Have a "Crapigator" Christmas
It's the season's biggest fear
We don't know if it will load
On boxes we hold dear!

Have a "Crapigator" Christmas
And remember what was neat
Say goodbye to Passport's Guide
It was so very sweet!!!!

F**K! Crapigator Sucks!
As everyone will see
Somebody keep a box
With Passport just for me!

(Crapigator, Crapigator, Crapigator.........Ohhhh!)

Have a Crapigator Christmas
It is coming out this year
No way jolly
It's a "Crapigator" Christmas.........this year!!!

Jack

I get what you're saying Jack, but I must have a different perspective than you. Maybe I've just had a different experience than some, but I pretty much always believe the problem is the signal coming to the box rather than the box or the sofware running the box.

Isn't the main reason they come to your house to check those signals and wires?

Like I said, maybe this depends on where you live and if you're in an area where they regularly have signal problems, then you're accustomed to that being the problem.

Anyway, my cable guy has now come & gone, doing absolutely nothing to help the situation. The cable has been working fine for the last 36 hours or so. Now I'm just trying to get used to the Crapigator ;) software.

The cable guy was nice & honest and told me they are having lots of problems with Crapigator and that there is no way to get an old Passport box because the warehouses won't even issue them to the cable guys any more. He also admitted that the TW had taken over doing the software, which was previously farmed out to someone who knew what they were doing. And he said that if I had kept my old box it would have been updated to Crapigator soon enough anyway, by order of Uncle Sam. This jives with what I've heard from other sources.

I learned one new thing. He said that before they started distributing Crapigator boxes to customers, TW gave it to the employees so they could become familiar with it AND give feedback. The feedback must have fallen on deaf ears because I can't imagine those people didn't have the same problems as everyone else (except they're not paying $100/mo for this piece of junk).

This fellow said he did not become that familiar with Crapigator because he quickly swapped his box for a Passport unit.

Oh well. At least mine is working for the moment.

-Marty
Uncle Sam did not mandate the use of Navigator. Uncle Sam mandated that NEW set top boxes seperate the security function from the set top box starting on July 1, 2007. This is called the "Integration Ban". Currently, cable companies use cable cards to execute this function. In the future the cable companies may be able to download software using DCAS that will do this. There are new versions of SARA and Passport that use cable cards. TWC decided to create their own DVR software instead of paying for the new versions of SARA and Passport that support the use of cable cards. Also, TWC had additional reasons for creating Navigator such as having only one software interface controlling all of their set top boxes and having complete control on how Navigator works.

I don't know of any other cable companies that have created their own set top box software because of the "Integration Ban".

Agreed with Russ, but when I compare it to what Comcast is offering via it's collaboration with Tivo, Navigator looks like DOS compared to Windows XP! That and the fact that Comcast is adding the Tivo option for only $2.95 extra a month! Sure it's got some bugs, but I'd love to have that Tivo option here and I'D PAY FOR IT! Time Warner may want complete control, but at what cost! Pouring money into a flawed product that is barely past beta stage after almost two years on the market? A fleeting base of subs going to other providers simply for a reliable DVR solution? It would have made more sense to partner with a company like Tivo, or even Aptiv and SA to develop a reliable, functional version of their software. One the customers don't mind paying for because it does what they want.

Also, does the integration ban apply to satellite? I know Dish was replacing Smartcards with embedded chips on their receivers since a few years ago.

The integration ban doesn't apply to satellite.

Uncle Sam did not mandate the use of Navigator. Uncle Sam mandated that NEW set top boxes seperate the security function from the set top box starting on July 1, 2007. This is called the "Integration Ban". Currently, cable companies use cable cards to execute this function. In the future the cable companies may be able to download software using DCAS that will do this. There are new versions of SARA and Passport that use cable cards. TWC decided to create their own DVR software instead of paying for the new versions of SARA and Passport that support the use of cable cards. Also, TWC had additional reasons for creating Navigator such as having only one software interface controlling all of their set top boxes and having complete control on how Navigator works.

I don't know of any other cable companies that have created their own set top box software because of the "Integration Ban".
Thanks, Russ. So the government is forcing the hardware to change, but TWC is the one making the decision to switch from Passport to Navigator.

One thing I'm not sure aboutom this discussion is whether we're talking about multiple software components running on the box. When you say "TWC decided to create their own DVR software" are uou referring to the whole Navigator or only the DVR part? Is there an OS that comes from SA/Cisco (or someone else) and then an application that loads on top of that? Maybe even more than one application (for example, DVR, channel guide, diagnostics)?

For example, my friend recently upgraded her TWC service for HD but she does not have the DVR. When she told me about all the problems she was having and receiving this "OCAP" message that I had never seen, I naively figured they gave her an old or defective box and eventually it would get updated to the "new, good stuff" which I thought would be Passport since I had been happy with it. It turns out I had it backwards. I'm the one who got "updated". Her software is still Navigator, right, even though there is no DVR function?

Thanks again,
-Marty

For example, my friend recently upgraded her TWC service for HD but she does not have the DVR. When she told me about all the problems she was having and receiving this "OCAP" message that I had never seen, I naively figured they gave her an old or defective box and eventually it would get updated to the "new, good stuff" which I thought would be Passport since I had been happy with it. It turns out I had it backwards. I'm the one who got "updated". Her software is still Navigator, right, even though there is no DVR function?


Passport is not just the DVR software, Passport is actually the IPG software used on regular boxes. Passport Echo is the DVR version of that.

Navigator is going to replace both. TWC no longer want to license Passport of either kind so you'll see IPG Navigator and a Navigator "Echo" version used for DVR.

For example, my friend recently upgraded her TWC service for HD but she does not have the DVR. When she told me about all the problems she was having and receiving this "OCAP" message that I had never seen, I naively figured they gave her an old or defective box and eventually it would get updated to the "new, good stuff" which I thought would be Passport since I had been happy with it. It turns out I had it backwards. I'm the one who got "updated". Her software is still Navigator, right, even though there is no DVR function?

Thanks again,
-Marty

Navigator is Time Warner's in-house software solution to OCAP and SDV. Instead of paying for the Passport/Passport>Echo and SARA updates for OCAP and SDV, Time Warner decided to develop their own software. Navigator is based on Mystro Digital Navigator, which was developed a few years back(AFAIK) to be used on TW's DVRs. They never used it and went with SARA or Passport>Echo instead. Now, to avoid paying for updates and standardize the UI on all systems, TW is using Navigator. There are two versions: ODN-OCAP Digital Navigator for OCAP boxes and MDN-Mystro Digital Navigator for non-OCAP boxes.

One thing I'm not sure aboutom this discussion is whether we're talking about multiple software components running on the box. When you say "TWC decided to create their own DVR software" are uou referring to the whole Navigator or only the DVR part? Is there an OS that comes from SA/Cisco (or someone else) and then an application that loads on top of that? Maybe even more than one application (for example, DVR, channel guide, diagnostics)?

Navigator is THE operating system. Every part of the UI is Navigator. The only difference is non-DVR boxes just don't load the DVR functions. Unlike Passport that has the regular Passport for non-DVR boxes(the yellow-colored guide) and Passport>Echo for HD DVRs(the silver colored guide). The OCAP DVR boxes also have a Scientific Atlanta Axiom DVR middleware on them.

Thought I would share this reply from TWC when I asked them when I could expect the upgrade with everyone.

Thank you for writing to Time Warner Cable.

Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing. This upgrade is being performed one converter model at a time to insure its completion without any problems. While the upgrade is taking longer than expected, our programmers are working as quickly as possible to bring this new service to all of our Customers. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the upgraded software. The upgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07. Your patience in the mean time is greatly appreciated.

Currently SA8300HD Passport in Kenosha, WI.

How that SHOULD read:

DAMN YOU for writing to Time Warner Cable!!

Crime Warner Cable is downgrading the software in all of our converters to the not-so-new Crapigator system which will destroy your television viewing experience. This downgrade is being performed regardless of converter model to insure it is completed with many problems. While this downgrade is taking longer than expected, our mentally-ill, illiterate programmers are taking their time and continuing to send out this inferior, defective service to all of our Customers, whether it works or not. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the downgraded software. However, after it is downloaded, you will need to return your converter weekly because of the constant reboots and recording issues on the DVRs. The downgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07, just in time to ruin your Christmas and New Year. Your patience is REQUIRED because we don't give a damn about you and we're gonna take our time. Thank you for giving us your hard-earned money every month and we hope you will continue to bend over for us every month.

How that SHOULD read:

DAMN YOU for writing to Time Warner Cable!!

Crime Warner Cable is downgrading the software in all of our converters to the not-so-new Crapigator system which will destroy your television viewing experience. This downgrade is being performed regardless of converter model to insure it is completed with many problems. While this downgrade is taking longer than expected, our mentally-ill, illiterate programmers are taking their time and continuing to send out this inferior, defective service to all of our Customers, whether it works or not. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the downgraded software. However, after it is downloaded, you will need to return your converter weekly because of the constant reboots and recording issues on the DVRs. The downgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07, just in time to ruin your Christmas and New Year. Your patience is REQUIRED because we don't give a damn about you and we're gonna take our time. Thank you for giving us your hard-earned money every month and we hope you will continue to bend over for us every month.

So True,

I wish these damn salespeople would stop pitching a script from TWC and at least be upfront about some of this information here. No, I don't expect them to say, "Navigator is a pile of sh!t." But stop trying to make these obviously inferior products sound like they are some "new and cool" great thing. People are sick of the bs. It goes back to what the people of Lincoln Nebraska said when the disaster of "Crapigator" was first rolled out. They could have at least said, "This is a new product still in Beta stages of development." If they would have said this, many people would have understood this. But stop trying to cram this obviously inferior product down our throats. At least get some qualified software program developers to work out the bugs in this thing, not some clueless McDonald's rejects. It's not fair to the customer/consumer base who rely so heavily on reliable cable technology. To take away that reliable from customers at $150-$250 a month is a pure and simple criminal outrage!

Jack

PS. I have a serious question and that is, where could TWC actually face charges such as fraud or misrepresentation if these problems are not resolved by the time this IPG is deployed nationwide if the bugs are not worked out? Where is a line drawn between TWC salespeople misrepresenting a product and flat out lying to their customers because they refuse to admit that they made a mistake? It appears that almost everything said about the new Navigator guide from TWC by a preponderance of the evidence has been proven to be misrepresented at best and fraudulent at worst.

Thanks everybody who has replied to my posts. Slowly I am learning more acronyms and background than an end-user should ever have to know.

SARA = Scientific Atlanta Resident Application
OCAP = OpenCable Application Platform
IPG = Interactive Program Guide ?
SDV = Switched Digital Video ? (OnDemand channels?)

SatchMan Jack, I have always wondered about such a lawsuit. I have a feeling that is such a thing were threatened, they could actually fix most of the bugs before the suit came to trial. If the sh_t were about to hit the fan they could just throw a bunch of money at the problem and claim they had been sincerely trying to fix it all along. My dream is more like a class-action for breach of contract. I have had so many outages that were not credited (only the most severe ever were - they routinely get away with 3 - 4 day interruptions in service). If we multiplied by the number of subscribers with similar stories, I would think it would be enough to make them take notice and hopefully get somebody fired.

Thanks again,
-Marty

How that SHOULD read:

DAMN YOU for writing to Time Warner Cable!!

Crime Warner Cable is downgrading the software in all of our converters to the not-so-new Crapigator system which will destroy your television viewing experience. This downgrade is being performed regardless of converter model to insure it is completed with many problems. While this downgrade is taking longer than expected, our mentally-ill, illiterate programmers are taking their time and continuing to send out this inferior, defective service to all of our Customers, whether it works or not. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the downgraded software. However, after it is downloaded, you will need to return your converter weekly because of the constant reboots and recording issues on the DVRs. The downgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07, just in time to ruin your Christmas and New Year. Your patience is REQUIRED because we don't give a damn about you and we're gonna take our time. Thank you for giving us your hard-earned money every month and we hope you will continue to bend over for us every month.
FREAKING BRILLIANT!!! Well done Sir!! :):):)

Thought I would share this reply from TWC when I asked them when I could expect the upgrade with everyone.

Thank you for writing to Time Warner Cable.

Time Warner Cable is upgrading the software in all of our converters to the new Navigator system which will enhance your television viewing. This upgrade is being performed one converter model at a time to insure its completion without any problems. While the upgrade is taking longer than expected, our programmers are working as quickly as possible to bring this new service to all of our Customers. You will not need to exchange your cable converter to receive the upgraded software. The upgrade is slated to be completed before 12/31/07. Your patience in the mean time is greatly appreciated.

Currently SA8300HD Passport in Kenosha, WI.

Of the myriad issues we all have with TWC, one of the MOST problematic will be Craptigator running under less RAM on the 8300HD boxes. Something tells me that all of the nasty problems 8300HDC boxes are having with it will pale in comparison to what is going to happen on Craptigatored 8300HD boxes.

There are two versions: ODN-OCAP Digital Navigator for OCAP boxes and MDN-Mystro Digital Navigator for non-OCAP boxes.

Navigator is THE operating system.

I have been under the impression there was some form of RTOS underneath Craptigator..

BUT, I queried this before but don't remember any real answers. It has been said that Craptigator on 8300HD boxes will NOT do OCAP. And I have read of tie-ins between OCAP and SDV. I know about MDN and ODN, but thought the issue was with the RAM footprints of the 2 boxes (HD and HDC).

Far as I can tell OCAP is just as important to them as SDV. Always sounded very much like a new framework or middleware. Meaning software. Are you saying that OCAP is a hardware function? That it can exist on a 8300HDC box but not on a 8300HD box?

That doesn't make sense as in my area, that means up to a million customers with boxes that will NOT have any availability to the new services OCAP brings with it.

...Now, to avoid paying for updates and standardize the UI on all systems, TW is using Navigator. There are two versions: ODN-OCAP Digital Navigator for OCAP boxes and MDN-Mystro Digital Navigator for non-OCAP boxes.

...The OCAP DVR boxes also have a Scientific Atlanta Axiom DVR middleware on them.
When mine boots up, it says OCAP on the STB and on the TV screen, and the screen also mentions SA and Axiom. However, once it gets to the L-13 countdown on the STB, the TV screen displays a Mystro screen that counts down the numbers in a little circle.

Does this make sense in light of what you were saying about Mystro being for non-OCAP boxes? Seems like mine is OCAP and Mystro.

Thanks,
-Marty

'Crime Warner'...'Craptigator' --- what is this, third grade? :rolleyes:

Leaving aside the puerility of it, it will make it hard for people searching for information on Time Warner or Navigator on AVSForum.

'Crime Warner'...'Craptigator' --- what is this, third grade? :rolleyes:

Leaving aside the puerility of it, it will make it hard for people searching for information on Time Warner or Navigator on AVSForum.

I could not have said it better myself. This thread has been infested with morons to the point that any rationale has become pointless.

I think the third grader comment is actually a compliment based on my experience. I don't think there are six brain cells among the lot.

If it is going to rain next Tuesday it's Navigator's fault. If you had a problem with your newspaper delivery it's Navigator's fault. It is definitely simple Simon in here. There is a proven lack of understanding by the most prolific posters here and the result is a poisoned juvenile well.

I actually used Navigator as opposed to most of the crowd in here. I liked it.

I could not have said it better myself. This thread has been infested with morons to the point that any rationale has become pointless.


Gotta agree. Lets get back to rollout timelines, actual reviews, problems and solutions from people who HAVE Navigator...

xnappo

Well here's a tip for better retention of series recordings.

Early on there were reports that recordings were mysteriously erased. Most of this was around the time when the War was being shown on PBS. I learned this one the hard way. The "clucking chickens" leaped on mysterious deletions as a fundamental flaw in Navigator. But it was of course just a user setting.

In Navigator when setting up a series recordings the default for retention of episodes is 3. Meaning when the 4th episode is recorded the 1st episode is deleted. Only three episodes will be retained at any given time. The simple answer is when setting up series recordings make sure you change the default to "keep all" (or something worded similar to this - I don't remember the exact wording). Especially when recording something like the War that had more then 3 episodes.

It is very simple. Very easy. Probably disappointing to some but once you get it you get it.

Gotta agree. Lets get back to rollout timeliness, actual reviews, problems and solutions from people who HAVE Navigator...

xnappo

I agree also,

I'm sure that some of the other users and I were just using light humor in response to so many people who had Navigator problems to try to empathize with their frustration. We do have to remember the foundation of this thread is to help and assist with productive solutions to Navigator's problems. And if there are improvements and almost no problems with this latest rollout, all praise given to TWC for fixing the issues. I think all of us are just following the trend. Maybe we can start talking about some good Navigator experiences or suggest positive potential for what this product may offer in the future.

Jack

When mine boots up, it says OCAP on the STB and on the TV screen, and the screen also mentions SA and Axiom. However, once it gets to the L-13 countdown on the STB, the TV screen displays a Mystro screen that counts down the numbers in a little circle.

Does this make sense in light of what you were saying about Mystro being for non-OCAP boxes? Seems like mine is OCAP and Mystro.

Thanks,
-Marty

Both OCAP and non-OCAP boxes can use Mystro. The one is calle dOCAP Digital Navigator(ODN) I would assume because it has extra software for OCAP functions. But there is another version of the same software that is supposed to be deployed on Passport/SARA boxes. It has been released in some areas before and it had bugs in it. Looks like many bugs still carried over to the OCAP version as well.

As for Mystro and OCAP, you are correct. So far, we've only seen Mystro Navigator on OCAP boxes. It will be interesting to see how older Passport and SARA boxes handle the "upgrade".

I have been under the impression there was some form of RTOS underneath Craptigator..

BUT, I queried this before but don't remember any real answers. It has been said that Craptigator on 8300HD boxes will NOT do OCAP. And I have read of tie-ins between OCAP and SDV. I know about MDN and ODN, but thought the issue was with the RAM footprints of the 2 boxes (HD and HDC).

Far as I can tell OCAP is just as important to them as SDV. Always sounded very much like a new framework or middleware. Meaning software. Are you saying that OCAP is a hardware function? That it can exist on a 8300HDC box but not on a 8300HD box?

That doesn't make sense as in my area, that means up to a million customers with boxes that will NOT have any availability to the new services OCAP brings with it.

Boxes with the integrated security(8300HD) probably will not need all of the software for OCAP (seperable security) boxes. As for SDV, Navigator is supposed to be Time Warner's solution of SDV(instead of getting the Passport update). I would have to say that the Navigator software for the "legacy" boxes will be able to do the same things as the new, OCAP boxes. Some fo their "new, great" features like the sports scores and stock quotes on screen and StartOver use the navigator platform. What ever happened to Start OVer, haven't heard much about it lately? As far as hardware, the 8300HDC has the M-Card slot on the back that's required on new boxes manufactured afet 7/1/07.

The real interesting ting will be the "legacy" boxes. I have heard here about a version for the boxes with less RAM, but think how much less RAM is on the 8000 series and older Pioneer/SA boxes. Right now, my old Pioneer BD-V1000 gets "funny" on Passport VOD sometimes, so I can't wait to see how it will do Navigator and it's new features. Even though the graphics are TERRIBLE on Navigator, it looks very graphic-intensive compared to the original Passport software or even Passport Echo.

'Crime Warner'...'Craptigator' --- what is this, third grade? :rolleyes:

Leaving aside the puerility of it, it will make it hard for people searching for information on Time Warner or Navigator on AVSForum.

Comedy, it's a coping method. After getting that terrible news yesterday we had to do something. Oh well. Today it's back to the serious issues again.

...If it is going to rain next Tuesday it's Navigator's fault. If you had a problem with your newspaper delivery it's Navigator's fault. It is definitely simple Simon in here. There is a proven lack of understanding by the most prolific posters here and the result is a poisoned juvenile well.

I actually used Navigator as opposed to most of the crowd in here. I liked it.
Don't you know that all that stuff is George W. Bush's fault?

I found this forum while looking for answers about OCAP and my new cable box but I quickly took to the "juvenile" content as well due to a bad few years with TWC NEO.

I'm actually surprised that there isn't a good Time Warner hate site out there so dissatisfied customers can get some of this animosity out of our systems. *Real* American corporate icons like Wal-Mart have them, why not TWC? I could really live without these technical discussions cluttering up my TWC bashing. Maybe I'll create the site in question and retire on ad revenue from the satellite TV companies.

Last night my DVR stopped working for both adhoc and scheduled recordings. The recording log included entries to the effect of "Recording skipped due to unresolved conflict" and "Channel not available". Those could not be true because nothing was being recorded and I was able to view the channels in question. I don't know why it stopped, but a reboot via the power cord got it working again.

Nextoo, I am glad that you like Navigator and I would love to hear about any specific features you like. One that I like is when I tune to a channel that has an HD ("enhanced") sister channel available, a window pops up enabling me to select the HD version. I also think the channel guide may be a little easier to read than in Passport.

It is slow to scan the channel guide in Navigator. On Passport I could hit the yellow button to advance to the next multiple of 100 channels. I don't see a way to scroll quickly in Navigator.

The title search function in the channel guide seemed much easier to use in Passport to find additional airings of a show you missed, for example.

If there is a better way to these things, I would love to hear it. Maybe I'm trying to do things like in Passport but there is a better way to do them in Navigator.

Thanks and sorry for diluting productive conversations with third-grade rants.

-Marty

Early on there were reports that recordings were mysteriously erased. Most of this was around the time when the War was being shown on PBS. I learned this one the hard way. The "clucking chickens" leaped on mysterious deletions as a fundamental flaw in Navigator. But it was of course just a user setting.

In Navigator when setting up a series recordings the default for retention of episodes is 3. Meaning when the 4th episode is recorded the 1st episode is deleted. Only three episodes will be retained at any given time. The simple answer is when setting up series recordings make sure you change the default to "keep all" (or something worded similar to this - I don't remember the exact wording). Especially when recording something like the War that had more then 3 episodes.

It is very simple. Very easy. Probably disappointing to some but once you get it you get it.

I don't recall seeing many complaints about that sort of 'problem'. I agree, that that's obviously not a software issue, but rather a new-user training issue (and probably something the installers should warn customers about if they've been used to Passport or SARA).

But, beyond those sorts of 'non-issues', let's not gloss over some of Navigators serious flaws. The real issues involve Navigator's software deficiencies, primarily the often reoccurring 'recording failures' - either due to 'phantom' lack-of-disk-space; or 'channel not available'; or non-existent 'scheduling conflicts'. That should never happen. Period. Even once is unacceptable.

The lack of buffering the alternate channel or while watching a recording is a big Navigator deficiency, but that's a programming issue and not necessarily a 'software bug'. Not being able to select a specific time and day for series recordings of programs that air multiple times is another such programming deficiency, as is the inability to swap tuners without first opening the PIP window.

My Navigator box is set up on a standard tube TV, so I haven't experienced any of the HD issues that others have mentioned.

I definitely feel that Navigator is more than simply 'disappointing.' It is so flawed and so frustrating, and has been handled so poorly by TWC, that for the first time in 22 years with TWC I'm seriously considering alternative providers.

On a side note: AT&T announced yesterday that uVerse is now available in the Columbus, OH area. I think they still have a lot of bugs to work out, and I don't want to be another guinea pig, but it's nice to know there's another option. (Their 'whole-house' DVR service is very attractive!)

...

Last night my DVR stopped working for both adhoc and scheduled recordings. The recording log included entries to the effect of "Recording skipped due to unresolved conflict" and "Channel not available". Those could not be true because nothing was being recorded and I was able to view the channels in question. I don't know why it stopped, but a reboot via the power cord got it working again.

...

It is slow to scan the channel guide in Navigator. On Passport I could hit the yellow button to advance to the next multiple of 100 channels. I don't see a way to scroll quickly in Navigator.

...

-Marty

Quite a large percentage of boxes seem to be bad (or maybe slightly flaky and Navigator can not tolerate any flakiness in the box, or both). Ask for a replacement, and if that one gives you hard time, do it again. And again. It seems that, eventually, that works. For me the second one worked. I've seen others where 4th or 5th worked. But before that, make sure your signal is strong enough - it may be strong enough for other stuff, but still not srong enough for this box. I had a situation where my analog TV had no trouble at all, but the DVR would freeze every couple of seconds - TWC added a signal amplifier and the DVR started working OK.

...

As for scrolling, Navigator is fairly quick. Just press *and hold* either down or up arrow, and after a second or two, it will start scrolling much faster than you can read them. Let go after a few seconds, and you may be a few hundred channels away. It is maybe not as good if you want to skip 102 channels, but probably better if you want to skip 45. You can use page down/up also. If you know the channel number, you can just type it, and it will scroll there.

Nextoo, I am glad that you like Navigator and I would love to hear about any specific features you like. One that I like is when I tune to a channel that has an HD ("enhanced") sister channel available, a window pops up enabling me to select the HD version. I also think the channel guide may be a little easier to read than in Passport.
-Marty

I don't have this "sister channel available" feature - Cary, NC, Navigator on 8300HDC.

I think it is misleading to use the terms seperable security to define OCAP boxes. OCAP is software (see the next paragraph from OpenCable), while seperable security is currently implemented with hardware (cable cards), but in the future it could be downloaded using DCAS which uses OCAP.

The OpenCable Platform establishes a common software platform that enables cable companies, network programmers, consumer electronics companies and others to extend interactivity to television and many other devices. With the technology comes an array of new business and revenue opportunities.

http://www.opencable.com/ocap/

Boxes with the integrated security(8300HD) probably will not need all of the software for OCAP (seperable security) boxes. As for SDV, Navigator is supposed to be Time Warner's solution of SDV(instead of getting the Passport update). I would have to say that the Navigator software for the "legacy" boxes will be able to do the same things as the new, OCAP boxes. Some fo their "new, great" features like the sports scores and stock quotes on screen and StartOver use the navigator platform. What ever happened to Start OVer, haven't heard much about it lately? As far as hardware, the 8300HDC has the M-Card slot on the back that's required on new boxes manufactured afet 7/1/07.

The real interesting ting will be the "legacy" boxes. I have heard here about a version for the boxes with less RAM, but think how much less RAM is on the 8000 series and older Pioneer/SA boxes. Right now, my old Pioneer BD-V1000 gets "funny" on Passport VOD sometimes, so I can't wait to see how it will do Navigator and it's new features. Even though the graphics are TERRIBLE on Navigator, it looks very graphic-intensive compared to the original Passport software or even Passport Echo.

I definitely feel that Navigator is more than simply 'disappointing.' It is so flawed and so frustrating, and has been handled so poorly by TWC, that for the first time in 22 years with TWC I'm seriously considering alternative providers.But don’t forget, there’s at least one non- "moron" here with a plethora of "brain cells" and no tolerance for buffoonery that actually likes NAVigator...
And has actually used it :rolleyes: -- but has yet to post any of the positives.

Maybe I’m clueless.
I need the good points:rolleyes: (of Time Warner’s Navigator) spelled out to me.:rolleyes:

I don't have this "sister channel available" feature - Cary, NC, Navigator on 8300HDC.
Jim,

It actually says something like "Enhanced - Press Select" and then displays a listbox containing only one item, the name of the HD channel, but implying that maybe someday there could be other enhanced capabilities besides HD (holograms, smell-a-vision, etc.:) ).

For example, if I am in the channel guide and I select TBS, the little window "Enhanced - Press Select" will pop up, then I hit Sel, then Right Arrow, get a window with TBSHD in it, the Sel to go to TBSHD. Something like that. ;)

My diagnostic channel 611 says Stack version = Axiom 1.2.34.1 and ODN version = 2.4.4_2. I don't know how to get to any other screens.

-Marty

Agreed with Russ, but when I compare it to what Comcast is offering via it's collaboration with Tivo, Navigator looks like DOS compared to Windows XP! That and the fact that Comcast is adding the Tivo option for only $2.95 extra a month! Sure it's got some bugs, but I'd love to have that Tivo option here and I'D PAY FOR IT! Time Warner may want complete control, but at what cost! Pouring money into a flawed product that is barely past beta stage after almost two years on the market? A fleeting base of subs going to other providers simply for a reliable DVR solution? It would have made more sense to partner with a company like Tivo, or even Aptiv and SA to develop a reliable, functional version of their software. One the customers don't mind paying for because it does what they want.

Also, does the integration ban apply to satellite? I know Dish was replacing Smartcards with embedded chips on their receivers since a few years ago.

One reason Dish is replacing the Smartcards: the Smartcard is relatively easy to hack & hence there are a lot of illegal "wide open" Dish receivers out there.

As for SDV, Navigator is supposed to be Time Warner's solution of SDV(instead of getting the Passport update).Just a bit of clarification here. There are lots of "solutions" for SDV. Navigator is one, Passport has another (that TW has decided not to implement), SARA has always had this capability, and the recently announced "tuning resolver" for TiVo, is yet another. SDV does not need OCAP.

I have been under the impression there was some form of RTOS underneath Craptigator..

BUT, I queried this before but don't remember any real answers. It has been said that Craptigator on 8300HD boxes will NOT do OCAP. And I have read of tie-ins between OCAP and SDV. I know about MDN and ODN, but thought the issue was with the RAM footprints of the 2 boxes (HD and HDC).

Far as I can tell OCAP is just as important to them as SDV. Always sounded very much like a new framework or middleware. Meaning software. Are you saying that OCAP is a hardware function? That it can exist on a 8300HDC box but not on a 8300HD box?

That doesn't make sense as in my area, that means up to a million customers with boxes that will NOT have any availability to the new services OCAP brings with it.
The various RTOS's have been proprietary to each manufacturer, whereas
OCAP's JAVA interface to user Apps is OPEN to any application writer....hence
the "OpenCable" name for the group developing and testing to OCAP specs.

OCAP is "Middleware" which needs to be integrated into the RTOS by the
manufacturer of each STB/DVR/iDTV/iHTPC so that they present the SAME
software interface to user developed JAVA apps:
http://www.ctam.com/ocap/

Because they should operate identically (e.g. have the same system S/W calls)
"users" can develop Java S/W apps which should work on ANY manufacturer's
OCAP compatible STB/DVR/iDTV/iHTPC:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/customers/images_subscriber/G1563A-OCAP%201-Sheet-crop.pdf
And with two-way CableCARD (aka M-CARD)...or DCAS, they will have SAME
functionality as a cable box....

This will be increasingly important as cable companies roll-out more advanced
features....and your "TV" becomes a sophisticated computer/media center:
http://broadband.motorola.com/noflash/Prep_OCAP_Seminar_Motorola_SCTE_7_7_2006.pdf

You will eventually also be able to directly connect your own "system"
to ANY cable system in America and get rid of the confounding multiple remote
control shuffle....but to do this all cable systems have to adopt OCAP.

=========================
As can be seen if you view the extended diagnostic displays, the underlying
RTOS for both SARA IPG and PASSPORT IPG has been PowerTV:
http://www.ddj.com/184411101
http://www.edn.com/contents/images/56667.pdf

Cisco (who now owns S/A and PowerTV) posted docs for PowerTV:
http://www.powertv.com/developers/PowerTVOSDocs.htm

Motorola uses Linux RTOS:
http://broadband.motorola.com/noflash/customer_docs/3379_OCAP.pdf

I don't recall what RTOS Samsung uses for their interactive iHDTV/DVRs.....
(To be available "soon"....after they finally debug OCAP, et. al.)

and Microsoft/device developers will eventually update VISTA....

=======================================
NAVIGATOR is the JAVA application that runs on top of OCAP/RTOS and
hence can be identical for ANY OCAP compatible STB/DVR/iDCR/iHTPC,
although it's likely there'll be "stripped down" versions to fit limited RAM STBs.
NAVIGATOR (and the OCAP middleware tailored for your H/W) is
downloaded from the cable headend so it's the latest available version.

This ALSO ensures that equipment manufacturers and various cable systems
"share the pain" of debugging all of this new software (including headend)
under the current "common reliance" agreement.

And has actually used it :rolleyes: -- but has yet to post any of the positives.

Maybe I’m clueless.


Perhaps. I would suggest starting here: :rolleyes:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12337344#post12337344

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12341072#post12341072

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12292889#post12292889

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12386563#post12386563

There are many others but this is a good start. The search function can be very powerful but does involve a bit of effort.

If live in Ohio you are looking for someone to call about TWC service and Navigator, you may want to call Rhonda Frost, (614) 481-5000. I understand she has state-wide responsibility for Customer Service. :):)

But don’t forget, there’s at least one non- "moron" here with a plethora of "brain cells" and no tolerance for buffoonery that actually likes NAVigator...
And has actually used it :rolleyes: -- but has yet to post any of the positives.

Maybe I’m clueless.
I need the good points:rolleyes: (of Time Warner’s Navigator) spelled out to me.:rolleyes:

The positives I found on the OCAP version are these:


No low-resolution graphics, unlike Passport and some places in Passport Echo.
Easier to read text than both Passport and Passport Echo. Passport and Passport Echo's text is too thin and tall, which is good for a road but not a television. Navigator's font is a very readable sans-serif font which has the right width for easy readability.
It should eventually lower support costs because the support center should only need to support Navigator instead of both SARA, Passport, and Passport Echo. Unfortunately, this goal is being subverted by the problems many are having with Navigator.
One box can substitute for the cable box using OCAP, as long as it is powerful enough. It could be an OCAP television, a future PlayStation 3 that is in the works that will come with a CableCARD slot, an HTPC, or (in my dreams) a custom Crysis rig that is modded to double as your DVR.
Eventually, other businesses can upload their OCAP applets to the cable company for integration into their OCAP application. A couch potato and someone whose accent is so thick he gets misunderstood over the phone would love to be able to order pizza through a pizzeria's ordering applet. This would also free up time for the employees at the pizzeria because they would have to waste less time taking orders and spend more time making pizza. This would be handy for Super Bowl Sunday when pizzerias get overloaded.

No low-resolution graphics, unlike Passport and some places in Passport Echo.


Does the guide make use of the full 16:9 screen?

xnappo

Does the guide make use of the full 16:9 screen?

xnappo

No. When you watch HD content, the guide appears to be 4:3 with bars on the sides. However, if you watch SD content and you use Stretch or Zoom instead of Normal, the guide will stretch to fill the screen, but that just look worse, as fonts become distorted.

No. When you watch HD content, the guide appears to be 4:3 with bars on the sides. However, if you watch SD content and you use Stretch or Zoom instead of Normal, the guide will stretch to fill the screen, but that just look worse, as fonts become distorted.

Yea, I had that issue using "fixed" resolution on a plasma. I had to set the TV to use stretch-o-vision for the guide and all SD content to avoid screen burn in.

No. When you watch HD content, the guide appears to be 4:3 with bars on the sides. However, if you watch SD content and you use Stretch or Zoom instead of Normal, the guide will stretch to fill the screen, but that just look worse, as fonts become distorted.

If you have an SD-TV, with an HD-DVR and Navigator is loaded onto it, I would presume that all settings would be at 480i, 4:3 Standard TV, Normal picture type regardless of Navigator's HD settings, correct?

Jack

I haven't seen this discussed before - the picture in picture feature.

On mine the box pops up in pretty much useless places. With a widescreen you'd think they'd pick putting the box near one of the edges but it displays well within the 4x3 SD box, basically in the way no matter which of the 4 positions you place it.

Also it's extremely pokey changing channels using the +/- keys - you don't want to have to go very far using those buttons.

No request for help here, just hoping someone at TWC is paying attention.

Jim

The various RTOS's have been proprietary to each manufacturer, whereas
OCAP's JAVA interface to user Apps is OPEN to any application writer....hence
the "OpenCable" name for the group developing and testing to OCAP specs.

OCAP is "Middleware" which needs to be integrated into the RTOS by the
manufacturer of each STB/DVR/iDTV/iHTPC so that they present the SAME
software interface to user developed JAVA apps:
http://www.ctam.com/ocap/

Because they should operate identically (e.g. have the same system S/W calls)
"users" can develop Java S/W apps which should work on ANY manufacturer's
OCAP compatible STB/DVR/iDTV/iHTPC:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/customers/images_subscriber/G1563A-OCAP%201-Sheet-crop.pdf
And with two-way CableCARD (aka M-CARD)...or DCAS, they will have SAME
functionality as a cable box....

This will be increasingly important as cable companies roll-out more advanced
features....and your "TV" becomes a sophisticated computer/media center:
http://broadband.motorola.com/noflash/Prep_OCAP_Seminar_Motorola_SCTE_7_7_2006.pdf

You will eventually also be able to directly connect your own "system"
to ANY cable system in America and get rid of the confounding multiple remote
control shuffle....but to do this all cable systems have to adopt OCAP.

=========================
As can be seen if you view the extended diagnostic displays, the underlying
RTOS for both SARA IPG and PASSPORT IPG has been PowerTV:
http://www.ddj.com/184411101
http://www.edn.com/contents/images/56667.pdf

Cisco (who now owns S/A and PowerTV) posted docs for PowerTV:
http://www.powertv.com/developers/PowerTVOSDocs.htm

Motorola uses Linux RTOS:
http://broadband.motorola.com/noflash/customer_docs/3379_OCAP.pdf

I don't recall what RTOS Samsung uses for their interactive iHDTV/DVRs.....
(To be available "soon"....after they finally debug OCAP, et. al.)

and Microsoft/device developers will eventually update VISTA....

=======================================
NAVIGATOR is the JAVA application that runs on top of OCAP/RTOS and
hence can be identical for ANY OCAP compatible STB/DVR/iDCR/iHTPC,
although it's likely there'll be "stripped down" versions to fit limited RAM STBs.
NAVIGATOR (and the OCAP middleware tailored for your H/W) is
downloaded from the cable headend so it's the latest available version.
This ALSO ensures that equipment manufacturers and various cable systems
"share the pain" of debugging all of this new software (including headend)
under the current "common reliance" agreement.

All this depends on the manufacturer implementing the API correctly. Often they tend to ignore the hard-to-do stuff and/or interepet the rest to best suit themselves. I've written software for 35+ years and can assure you that this "do your own thing" happens all the time.

Does the guide make use of the full 16:9 screen?

xnappo

As far as I know, no one makes 16:9 graphics yet. All systems are still designed to keep OSDs in the 4:3 "safe area". Navigator does stretch the menus, guide and channel display if the output is set to 480i. The only problem is it looks distorted(which is usual for stretchovision) and the text can be hard to read. But then again, the Navigator font just sucks, Passport is easier to read.

...
But then again, the Navigator font just sucks, Passport is easier to read.

Compare this with:

...
Easier to read text than both Passport and Passport Echo. Passport and Passport Echo's text is too thin and tall, which is good for a road but not a television. Navigator's font is a very readable sans-serif font which has the right width for easy readability.
...


Looks like it is either just personal preference, or Passport's font looks better stretched, and Navigator's looks better in Normal mode, due to Passport's font being tall and thin. I personally watch HD almost exclusively, so maybe that's why I like Navigator's font; but I have to admit that on rare occasions when I watch SD and font is stretched, it does look ugly (but it remains readable); don't have first hand experience with Passport's font, though.

I haven't seen this discussed before - the picture in picture feature.

On mine the box pops up in pretty much useless places. With a widescreen you'd think they'd pick putting the box near one of the edges but it displays well within the 4x3 SD box, basically in the way no matter which of the 4 positions you place it.

Also it's extremely pokey changing channels using the +/- keys - you don't want to have to go very far using those buttons.

No request for help here, just hoping someone at TWC is paying attention.

Jim

The same problem happens in Passport Echo as well.

I think that this is a limitation of the 8300HD and 8300HDC hardware. You will have to wait for the upcoming 8550HDC with its graphics engine able to internally generate up to 960x540 32-bit graphics (which is 16:9) that is later scaled to the television's native resolution to solve this. The 8300 series of cable boxes are limited to 640x480 16-bit internally-generated graphics which is later scaled to the television's native resolution. This hopefully does not mean that television programs are downconverted to 16-bit graphics, because if they were, we would have noticed banding or dithering in our image especially in dark areas of the image.

Compare this with:



Looks like it is either just personal preference, or Passport's font looks better stretched, and Navigator's looks better in Normal mode, due to Passport's font being tall and thin. I personally watch HD almost exclusively, so maybe that's why I like Navigator's font; but I have to admit that on rare occasions when I watch SD and font is stretched, it does look ugly (but it remains readable); don't have first hand experience with Passport's font, though.

See a sample of Passport's graphics at Aptiv's site here (http://www.aptivdigital.com//passportecho/passportecho.asp). It is scaled, so it looks a little worse than it really is.

The same problem happens in Passport Echo as well.

I think that this is a limitation of the 8300HD and 8300HDC hardware. You will have to wait for the upcoming 8550HDC with its graphics engine able to internally generate up to 960x540 32-bit graphics (which is 16:9) that is later scaled to the television's native resolution to solve this.


While the 8550HDC looks like an improvement, I find it UNBELIEVABLE they ARE STILL USING A 160GB DRIVE!!! What are they thinking? These boxes are meant to expand HD offerings, but only hold up to 20 hours of HD. I like the fact they have an eSATA, USB 2.0 and Firewire ports for added storage, but if the ports are disabled then it's pointless. These units should have a minimum 500GB Hard Drive.

Click here for the spec sheet on it (www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7009273.pdf)

Compare this with:



Looks like it is either just personal preference, or Passport's font looks better stretched, and Navigator's looks better in Normal mode, due to Passport's font being tall and thin. I personally watch HD almost exclusively, so maybe that's why I like Navigator's font; but I have to admit that on rare occasions when I watch SD and font is stretched, it does look ugly (but it remains readable); don't have first hand experience with Passport's font, though.

Here is a screenshot of Passprot's guide:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/medium/passport_guide.JPG

Here is a screenshot of Navigator. The font used in this picture is NOT the font that was on my Navigator box. instead I had some hideous font.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/73/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/MDN/Access_Menu2.jpg


For me, I like the Passport font because it's a sans-serif font. Like on a computer screen, a sans-serif font is easier on the eyes. The Navigator font didn't really look like an on-screen font. It looked like some kind of fancy font..

I've used both Navigator and Passport. Currently I have a Passport box and I am much happier with the font. Just a personal prefrence. :)

Here is a screenshot of Passprot's guide:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/medium/passport_guide.JPG

Here is a screenshot of Navigator. The font used in this picture is NOT the font that was on my Navigator box. instead I had some hideous font.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/73/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/MDN/Access_Menu2.jpg


For me, I like the Passport font because it's a sans-serif font. Like on a computer screen, a sans-serif font is easier on the eyes. The Navigator font didn't really look like an on-screen font. It looked like some kind of fancy font..

I've used both Navigator and Passport. Currently I have a Passport box and I am much happier with the font. Just a personal prefrence. :)

I don't understand. The fonts in the screenshots I have seen that are large enough to read and the fonts shown in the videos on Navigator shown on the Time Warner Cable Answers on Demand video help channel are all sans-serif. I think that you are confused on the meaning of serif and sans-serif. Please see Wikipedia's article on serif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serif) and its article on sans-serif (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-serif) to get an understanding on what these terms mean. The screenshot of Navigator that you attached is scaled down so much that the program listings are illegible, so I can't tell what kind of font is used.

However, it is possible to have a stylized sans-serif font and a stylized serif font. I did not find the fonts in Navigator stylized enough to be hard to read at first glance.

I guess that everyone has their preferences on what font they like. Mine is with Navigator on this one, though I wish the graphics and colors chosen were nowhere near as drab as they are in Navigator.

Examples of serif and sans-serif fonts:
This sentence is in a serif font.
This sentence is another one in a serif font.
This sentence is in a sans-serif font.
This sentence is in a stylized sans-serif font.

I don't understand. The fonts in the screenshots I have seen that are large enough to read and the fonts shown in the videos on Navigator shown on the Time Warner Cable Answers on Demand video help channel are all sans-serif. I think that you are confused on the meaning of serif and sans-serif.

He's saying that the version of Navigator he has doesn't use the same legible font as shown in the IPG images on the TWC site.

He's saying that the version of Navigator he has doesn't use the same legible font as shown in the IPG images on the TWC site.

I guess they must have changed it around since I last used it at a demo kiosk at a local mall. When I used it there, it was all sans-serif.

You will have to wait for the upcoming 8550HDC with its graphics engine able to internally generate up to 960x540 32-bit graphics (which is 16:9) that is later scaled to the television's native resolution to solve this. The 8300 series of cable boxes are limited to 640x480 16-bit internally-generated graphics which is later scaled to the television's native resolution. This hopefully does not mean that television programs are downconverted to 16-bit graphics, because if they were, we would have noticed banding or dithering in our image especially in dark areas of the image.

Except what systems may USE the 8550HDC? And when? The realist in me says I may see such a box in about a dozen years... given what the cable outfit I HAVE to deal with goes about it's business where I live.

While the 8550HDC looks like an improvement, I find it UNBELIEVABLE they ARE STILL USING A 160GB DRIVE!!! What are they thinking? These boxes are meant to expand HD offerings, but only hold up to 20 hours of HD. I like the fact they have an eSATA, USB 2.0 and Firewire ports for added storage, but if the ports are disabled then it's pointless. These units should have a minimum 500GB Hard Drive.

Click here for the spec sheet on it (www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7009273.pdf)

Normally I wouldn't have an issue with a 160G internal drive. It SHOULD mean that the cost of such box would be less than one with a 500G drive, and the rental we pay sure has a factor for the cost of the box to the cable outfit. Of course, that assumes the use of an external drive is actually supported and not left with the boatload of bugs the current systems have.

What I find MOST interesting in the spec sheet (BTW, thanks for posting it) is the MPEG4 support. I find "4" to be a huge upgrade from "2." Essentially, one CAN get the same or better quality while needing much less bandwidth.

Unfortunately, the "installed base" will probably stymie this huge technology advance for years. Here is where we need a guy like Steve Jobs... he has been more than willing to toss technologies he doesn't like with totally NO regard for his customers who may have huge investments in the technology he doesn't like. No matter, he plows ahead. 5+ years later it's clear that the tech he wanted dead SHOULD be dead, the issue is the abruptness of the decision.

Normally I wouldn't have an issue with a 160G internal drive. It SHOULD mean that the cost of such box would be less than one with a 500G drive, and the rental we pay sure has a factor for the cost of the box to the cable outfit. Of course, that assumes the use of an external drive is actually supported and not left with the boatload of bugs the current systems have.


I have to disagree here. Hard Drives are so cheap now that the per gigabyte cost would be barely felt by Cisco/SA when buying these drives in bulk. I do agree that as long as external drives are supported it becomes a non-issue. However, they should have at least doubled it up to a 320GB. I saw the demo of said box and Cisco is shooting for a "Home Media Center" where the box interfaces with other things in the home and the Internet.

Click Here to watch "The Connected Home" (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/newscenter/events-CES2007.htm)

The demo version is running a version of SARA software. I just wish the showed more detail versus the presenter explaining it.

Except what systems may USE the 8550HDC?Same systems that USE the SA8300HDC.

While the 8550HDC looks like an improvement, I find it UNBELIEVABLE they ARE STILL USING A 160GB DRIVE!!! What are they thinking? These boxes are meant to expand HD offerings, but only hold up to 20 hours of HD. I like the fact they have an eSATA, USB 2.0 and Firewire ports for added storage, but if the ports are disabled then it's pointless. These units should have a minimum 500GB Hard Drive.

Click here for the spec sheet on it (www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7009273.pdf)

The 8300HD also has eSATA, USB and Firewire. Only the SATA is active(AFAIK). The 8550 looks like the 8300 repackaged in a less-appealing package with mre RAM and better graphics added(good things).

The odd thing is it really doesn't look like a cable box. In that picture, I didn't see a clock or the picture format indicators on the front panel. It really SHOULD have a better hard drive. The las big hard drive improvement was from the 8000 to the 8300. The 8550 also says the same thing as the 8300 with the "20/90" HD/SD recording capacity. With all the new HD programming that is coming, the DVR should have more internal capacity.

The 8300HD also has eSATA, USB and Firewire. Only the SATA is active(AFAIK). The 8550 looks like the 8300 repackaged in a less-appealing package with mre RAM and better graphics added(good things).

The odd thing is it really doesn't look like a cable box. In that picture, I didn't see a clock or the picture format indicators on the front panel. It really SHOULD have a better hard drive. The las big hard drive improvement was from the 8000 to the 8300. The 8550 also says the same thing as the 8300 with the "20/90" HD/SD recording capacity. With all the new HD programming that is coming, the DVR should have more internal capacity.

You are forgetting the MPEG-4 capability, which has some advantages and disadvantages.

First, MPEG-4 is the algorithm that squeezes out the most bytes for an equivalent quality level comparable to other codecs running at a higher bit rate. Second, since it has such a good compression ratio for a given quality level, more HD video should be storable on the hard drive, so each gigabyte should handle more video.

However, there are a few disadvantages for using MPEG-4. First, only Scientific Atlanta markets an MPEG-4 cable box as of this writing, so it can charge the cable companies monopoly pricing, raising our rates. Second, MPEG-4 is so hard to decode that it laughs at current-generation CPUs (except possibly the PlayStation 3's Cell Broadband Engine) when they have no external decode assistance from a video processor like NVIDIA PureVideo or ATI AVIVO. It is so tough that older CPUs will choke even while assisted with older versions of PureVideo or AVIVO. Third, people who use CableCARDs to reduce clutter around their flat panel TV will not like having to rent a cable box to decode MPEG-4 broadcasts. Fourth, the cable plant might need to scrap its entire inventory of MPEG-2 only cable boxes when switching to MPEG-4, depending on what is going to MPEG-4.

My two year old HP laptop (single AMD64) decodes & plays downloaded H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) files
just fine (720p & 1080i/24p).

My four year old desktop (AMD Athelon w 2000+ MHZ rating & 400 MHz FSB) won't keep up with 1080i.

============================
PS: I'm not sure what you mean when you say S/A is only one "marketing" an MPEG4 capable STB/DVR for cable....
esp. since I don't recall ANYONE saying they have MPEG4 capable STB/DVR deployed on any "cable" (not IPTV) system....
NCTA/SCTE/CableLabs is still working on next gen cable (incl H.264 IPTV supplementing/replacing SDV),
so it isn't a finalized cable system "requirement".....yet...

When they finish, you'll see H.264/MPEG4 being first used with the new IPTV functionality...
which will be used like OnDemand and SDV, in ADDITION to normal MPEG2 channels:
http://www.sciatl.com/products/customers/subscriber_NextGenNetworkArch.htm
Note they limit it to ON-DEMAND, HDTV (e.g. SDV/PPV) and Internet Video Content....

I've seen PLENTY of H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) capable STB/DVR's at the past several CES conventions....
mostly intended for IPTV....but in Europe IPTV is frequently found as an "extra" function on standard
cable systems....Also, SAT STB/DVR isn't all that different from cable.

Since most of these companies have developed multi-purpose motherboards, don't be surprised to see
next gen (after SA8300) boxes simply downloaded with S/W for US cable, Europe cable, IPTV or SAT.

You are forgetting the MPEG-4 capability, which has some advantages and disadvantages.

First, MPEG-4 is the algorithm that squeezes out the most bytes for an equivalent quality level comparable to other codecs running at a higher bit rate. Second, since it has such a good compression ratio for a given quality level, more HD video should be storable on the hard drive, so each gigabyte should handle more video.

However, there are a few disadvantages for using MPEG-4. First, only Scientific Atlanta markets an MPEG-4 cable box as of this writing, so it can charge the cable companies monopoly pricing, raising our rates. Second, MPEG-4 is so hard to decode that it laughs at current-generation CPUs (except possibly the PlayStation 3's Cell Broadband Engine) when they have no external decode assistance from a video processor like NVIDIA PureVideo or ATI AVIVO. It is so tough that older CPUs will choke even while assisted with older versions of PureVideo or AVIVO. Third, people who use CableCARDs to reduce clutter around their flat panel TV will not like having to rent a cable box to decode MPEG-4 broadcasts. Fourth, the cable plant might need to scrap its entire inventory of MPEG-2 only cable boxes when switching to MPEG-4, depending on what is going to MPEG-4.

The dude is worried about fonts and clocks. You are so far over his head he'll probably blame Navagator for his ignorance.

Thank's for the contribution. As had been posted previously. There is a lot going on.

The dude is worried about fonts and clocks. You are so far over his head he'll probably blame Navagator for his ignorance.

Thank's for the contribution. As had been posted previously. There is a lot going on.

Unlike you, I'm not getting paid to "talk up" Navigator. An almost 100% consensus that Navigator is crap, yet one person praises it, hmmmm? We are in the presence of a Time Warner employee.

As for "fonts & clocks", I am simply pointing out minor desing flaws. Test this product with some customers and see what type of response you'll get. Why do you think Passport, SARA and Navigator have settings to change the clock display? Because some people still want the channel # on the front of the box. To you and me it may be nothing, but to some customers it is. The smallest things can get major responses i.e. the "delay" in changing channels or the SLOW movement of the Navigator guide.

And you WILL NOT CENSOR ME and you WILL NOT INTIMIDATE ME!! I had a HORRIBLE experience with Crapigator and I intend to share it with as many people as possible. I will warn them about that rip-off called Navigator. For around $100 a month, the damn DVR should work.

The only one with anything "over thier head" is the cable company and the new technology. We're talking about the people who are continually smoked by Directv in the number of HD channels. How many HD channels does D* have now? I lost count. What does cable do? They can barely get all of the local HD channels up. In my area, AT&T U-verse is starting up and they will be carrying WBNX-HD. 8 MONTHS and it's still not on TW.

And MPEG-4. Time Warner is still broadcasting in analog. ANd some of their channels are so compressed, they look about as good as online streaming video! Many markets don't even have SDV yet and you're talking about IPTV!

And don't even get me started on the DVR! Time Warner finally has not one, but TWO quality, properly working DVR interfaces and what do they do? They dump BOTH of them for some software designed by morons rejected by DeVry. Those idiots ride the short bus to work everyday for ONE YEAR and the bugs are still not fixed!

If I was at Time Warner right now, I'd be hanging my head in shame!

^Whoa, so bitter, but so damn true!

It just pisses me off so bad that one of the largest mega power companies in the world can't offer a quality cable experience...they should be LEAPS and BOUNDS better than anything out there with their media muscle it sucks....and this dude in here in bed with Navigator has to be one of the programmers of that POS...:D

Unlike you, I'm not getting paid to "talk up" Navigator. An almost 100% consensus that Navigator is crap, yet one person praises it, hmmmm? We are in the presence of a Time Warner employee.

As for "fonts & clocks", I am simply pointing out minor desing flaws. Test this product with some customers and see what type of response you'll get. Why do you think Passport, SARA and Navigator have settings to change the clock display? Because some people still want the channel # on the front of the box. To you and me it may be nothing, but to some customers it is. The smallest things can get major responses i.e. the "delay" in changing channels or the SLOW movement of the Navigator guide.

And you WILL NOT CENSOR ME and you WILL NOT INTIMIDATE ME!! I had a HORRIBLE experience with Crapigator and I intend to share it with as many people as possible. I will warn them about that rip-off called Navigator. For around $100 a month, the damn DVR should work.

The only one with anything "over thier head" is the cable company and the new technology. We're talking about the people who are continually smoked by Directv in the number of HD channels. How many HD channels does D* have now? I lost count. What does cable do? They can barely get all of the local HD channels up. In my area, AT&T U-verse is starting up and they will be carrying WBNX-HD. 8 MONTHS and it's still not on TW.

And MPEG-4. Time Warner is still broadcasting in analog. ANd some of their channels are so compressed, they look about as good as online streaming video! Many markets don't even have SDV yet and you're talking about IPTV!

And don't even get me started on the DVR! Time Warner finally has not one, but TWO quality, properly working DVR interfaces and what do they do? They dump BOTH of them for some software designed by morons rejected by DeVry. Those idiots ride the short bus to work everyday for ONE YEAR and the bugs are still not fixed!

If I was at Time Warner right now, I'd be hanging my head in shame!

You need to dump your TWC ramblings in the appropriate thread. Try this one. It is titled the "TWC Consumer Input Thread":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733414

This thread is titled "Time Warner Cable Navigator".

The FUD needs to stop. FUD = Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. It is a very effective marketing tactic and has been put to its best in this thread. Here's Wiki on FUD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt

With all the FUD being deployed (as a strategy) it has become next to impossible to discuss the topic at hand. I'll point to one of the more prolific posters in this thread as an example. Not only does this poster not use Navigator but this poster does not even use a TWC DVR. And yet consistently attempts to be the Pied Piper. The self proclaimed "leader of the band" in an attempt to organize any and every complaint ever uttered or even whispered about Navigator. Whether valid or not. But like playing whac-a-mole this poster routinely gets pounded back into his hole by those who recognize FUD.

So who works for who? I've never worked for TWC. Never owned even one share of its stock. But are there perhaps FUD purveyors in here that are disgruntled former TWC employees? Or perhaps Aptiv employees who stand to gain? Or in this case not lose - and not lose big. A friend or family member of one perhaps? Who knows. But FUD is easy to recognize - Fear Uncertainty and Doubt merchants are as well. I have no idea of the motivations but like pornography - I know it when I see it.

And this FUD becomes viral. It infects even those who are not consciously employing it. After a while it can remind one of "The Oxbow Incident".

I've posted that my experience with Navigator was very good. Some did not like that. But I did fire TWC last month and moved on. As posted I was not happy with the 160GB hard drive and also not happy when TWC decided to letterbox all 480i content. But Navigator worked fine - and I am not the lone ranger when it comes to this experience. But as posted previously I had a stable HDC box.

So what is the problem with Navigator on a box that is not stable? I don't know. Is it Navigator or the box? The HDC boxes running SARA have been reported to be unstable as well. Is the answer to throw out SARA with the bath water? Dump SARA because of the HDC box? TivoHD and the S3 can have stability issues with cable cards. Dump Tivo? How does Passport run on these HDC boxes? Dump Passport too if the HDC reboots?

My current DVD is a Dish VIP-722. It works great. It has actually been rated favorably when compared to Tivo. It has a 500GB hard drive and does not letter box 480i content - oh - but no clock.

Dish recently pushed down a firmware update. In another forum devoted to Dish there is a thread that discusses problems with the new firmware. Bug reports etc. Some users were negatively affected. Nowhere in the thread has the STB been refereed to as the VIPisser or anything like. Nothing like what has been refereed to as the "third grade" mentality abundantly evident in this thread.

So bring on the FUD. Hopefully there will be somebody left in here that recognizes it. And hopefully the discussion can get on message. Beating up Navigator because of signal strength issues, OCAP issues, cable card issues, etc is just plain naive. It's called barking up the wrong tree. Those issues need to be fixed. Dumping Navigator is not the solution.

Navigator has problems. Sure. What doesn't? It has seen improvement. Lumping every single TWC issue into an anti Navigator campaign is - FUD

I guess they must have changed it around since I last used it at a demo kiosk at a local mall. When I used it there, it was all sans-serif.

It still is sans-serif (at least in my case); it is the same as in:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/products/cable/navigator/mdn_quicktips_5.html

It seems very strange that somebody would get a different font.

nickdawg, would you mind posting pictures of the hideous font you have, as you must be the only person (at least the only one posting here) who got a Navigator box with a font different from the standard Navigator's font?

...
ANd some of their channels are so compressed, they look about as good as online streaming video!
...

I guess that this varies from market to market. In the Cary, NC headend I am stationed at, the only channels that are like that are the channels the local TV stations butcher, like some local stations' weather subchannels.

I am guessing that the TWC experience must be like Pizza Hut, where some cooks are great at some restaurants while they are rotten in others. You do not know whether the local TWC office is competent or not until you try it out. The Raleigh-Durham-Fayetteville office has been great. (I do not know how good or bad the Navigator deployment is here, because my family's cable box is still a Passport box.) However, I have read that the TWC divisions in the west coast of the U.S. are so horrible that Comcast looks good compared to them. I have read that service was so bad at the Los Angeles division that its chief got fired this year due to poor customer service.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that some areas served by TWC, like Robbins, NC, is still a pure analog system. (IMHO, this area would probably be a really good area to deploy MPEG-4 because it has no legacy boxes to scrap.) Some areas, which were Adelphia areas until they were sold to TWC, are digital, but have no HD. This is understandable considering that Adelphia's bankruptcy prevented it from getting upgraded. I guess my Pizza Hut analogy really works for TWC.

My two year old HP laptop (single AMD64) decodes & plays downloaded H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) files
just fine (720p & 1080i/24p).

My four year old desktop (AMD Athelon w 2000+ MHZ rating & 400 MHz FSB) won't keep up with 1080i.

============================
PS: I'm not sure what you mean when you say S/A is only one "marketing" an MPEG4 capable STB/DVR for cable....
esp. since I don't recall ANYONE saying they have MPEG4 capable STB/DVR deployed on any "cable" (not IPTV) system....
NCTA/SCTE/CableLabs is still working on next gen cable (incl H.264 IPTV supplementing/replacing SDV),
so it isn't a finalized cable system "requirement".....yet...

When they finish, you'll see H.264/MPEG4 being first used with the new IPTV functionality...
which will be used like OnDemand and SDV, in ADDITION to normal MPEG2 channels:
http://www.sciatl.com/products/customers/subscriber_NextGenNetworkArch.htm
Note they limit it to ON-DEMAND, HDTV (e.g. SDV/PPV) and Internet Video Content....

I've seen PLENTY of H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) capable STB/DVR's at the past several CES conventions....
mostly intended for IPTV....but in Europe IPTV is frequently found as an "extra" function on standard
cable systems....Also, SAT STB/DVR isn't all that different from cable.

Since most of these companies have developed multi-purpose motherboards, don't be surprised to see
next gen (after SA8300) boxes simply downloaded with S/W for US cable, Europe cable, IPTV or SAT.

As for my comments about MPEG-4, there are really only two big players that dominate the cable box market: Scientific-Atlanta and Motorola, as far as I know. Motorola does not advertise an MPEG-4 model as of this writing, so that explians why I stated that Scientific-Atlanta can charge monopoly pricing. Hopefully, OCAP will break this cable box duopoly.

holl_ands, can your computers handle 1080p60 video, which is the standard on Blu-ray and HD-DVD? That is more work per second to handle compared to the 1080i30, 1080p24, and 720p you are claiming.

NVIDIA and ATI were having trouble with their lowest-end cards and HD decoding, showing that even dedicated video hardware (albeit stripped down versions of it) had trouble with 1080p playback with initial drivers. The ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro would downsample the video because it did not have the power with the initial drivers to handle full resolution 1080p video and the NVIDIA 8400 GS would flash white frames from time to time, according to this Tom's Hardware report on AVIVO and PureVideo in low-end video cards (http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/10/26/avivo_hd_vs_purevideo/). Hopefully, ATI and NVIDIA can optimize their drivers to fix this behavior. I have also read somewhere that some pure software decoders must throw out some of the detail to reduce the MPEG-4 decode process workload to a manageable level. These reasons made me feel that MPEG-4 must be a really hard codec to decompress.

Unlike you, I'm not getting paid to "talk up" Navigator. An almost 100% consensus that Navigator is crap, yet one person praises it, hmmmm? We are in the presence of a Time Warner employee.


I've been using Navigator (Manhattan TWC, 8300HDC box) for a couple of weeks now, and other than a reboot in the second day of use, I've had no major issues with it. Minor issue would be that setting the box/software to 16:9 and allowing all resolutions , with an HDMI connection, seems to preclude effectie use my TV remote's aspect button (for zooming, stretching 4:3 material) -- but the aspect button on the SA remote does that instead, so it's not a big deal. Or maybe it's all due to TWC sending 480i already letterboxed, I don't know.

My other issue is that unlike previous user interfaces, Navigator does not have an quick option to record a series on more than one channel. You have to set record on every channel individually. That's a PITA, but not a huge deal-breaker.

Final minor issue is that switching between resolutions seems to be kinda slow. But I don't know if that's a TV thing or a DVR thing.

Other than that I have no complaints so far, recording has worked fine. I've encountered none of the horror stories that I've read about.


And you WILL NOT CENSOR ME and you WILL NOT INTIMIDATE ME!! I had a HORRIBLE experience with Crapigator and I intend to share it with as many people as possible. I will warn them about that rip-off called Navigator. For around $100 a month, the damn DVR should work.

You're sounding a little...verklempt.

(For the record, this post was not written by a TWC employee ;> )

I guess that this varies from market to market. In the Cary, NC headend I am stationed at, the only channels that are like that are the channels the local TV stations butcher, like some local stations' weather subchannels.

I am guessing that the TWC experience must be like Pizza Hut, where some cooks are great at some restaurants while they are rotten in others. You do not know whether the local TWC office is competent or not until you try it out. The Raleigh-Durham-Fayetteville office has been great. (I do not know how good or bad the Navigator deployment is here, because my family's cable box is still a Passport box.) However, I have read that the TWC divisions in the west coast of the U.S. are so horrible that Comcast looks good compared to them. I have read that service was so bad at the Los Angeles division that its chief got fired this year due to poor customer service.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that some areas served by TWC, like Robbins, NC, is still a pure analog system. (IMHO, this area would probably be a really good area to deploy MPEG-4 because it has no legacy boxes to scrap.) Some areas, which were Adelphia areas until they were sold to TWC, are digital, but have no HD. This is understandable considering that Adelphia's bankruptcy prevented it from getting upgraded. I guess my Pizza Hut analogy really works for TWC.

This is an excellent analogy. The thing is, I just don't know what the main ingredients are in order to get TWC up to a satisfactory level across state lines. The inconsistency and fluctuation of conveying quality information and technology is stunning. Anyway, back to Navigator.

Jack

I guess that this varies from market to market. In the Cary, NC headend I am stationed at, the only channels that are like that are the channels the local TV stations butcher, like some local stations' weather subchannels.

I am guessing that the TWC experience must be like Pizza Hut, where some cooks are great at some restaurants while they are rotten in others. You do not know whether the local TWC office is competent or not until you try it out. The Raleigh-Durham-Fayetteville office has been great. (I do not know how good or bad the Navigator deployment is here, because my family's cable box is still a Passport box.)
...


I am in Cary as well, and would concur. All HD channels look excellent; SD channels are hit and miss, with the bad ones being exactly the ones you mentioned. The only SD channel I watch somewhat regularly (SciFI) is pretty good, especially their letterboxed stuff.

As for Navigator in Cary area, there are two isues, stability and UI.

As far as stability is concerned, it appear to be largely box-dependent, i.e. likely not Navigator, but 8300HDC box issue. My first box had "Channel Not Available" bug and other issues in the first week; manual reboots did not help. I got it replaced, and my second box, in use since September, is stable. The only other local poster I remember was jimholcomb, and he had all kind of bad luck with those boxes:

Since September, the 1st one died within a few days, the 2nd and 3rd rebooted daily, and this morning the 4th is in a continuous reboot cycle. ...
I've not had the "channel not available" issue since box #2, no changes to software unless the profile number is part of software. I've always assumed that was maybe the guide version - anyone know what it really is?

Box #5 has not spontaneously rebooted after 6 days yet, but it did need a reboot on day 3.

Hope he finally found a decent box.

I don't know how much, if any, of this instability is Navigator's fault; probably not that much.

As far as UI is concerned, I do not like Navigator at all from that perspective; I have not used Passport or SARA, but I can tell you Navigator's no ReplayTV. On the other hand, from what I could figure out comparing the features displayed on their web sites, and some posters, it appears that it is probably a three-way tie between Passport, SARA and Navigator as far as UI is concerned, or at least not any deal-breaker features are missing - the main thing missing in Navigator that appear to be in others (as far as I could tell) is the ability to restrict a series to a particular time slot, which sometimes comes handy when New flag is not reliable. Also, series recordings are restricted to a particular channel; you may or may not like that.

To update my Cary, NC experiences with the 8300HDC and Navigator:

Since I stopped letting the box fill up (using the equivalent of "Keep all Episodes" whose exact name escapes me at the moment) and now keep it generally under 70% full and typically closer to 50% full, the box has been MUCH more stable. I still reboot once every week or two, but it's not dropping recordings like it used to, or refusing to display video, or hanging up, or any of the other issues I was having. That one change has drastically improved my Navigator experience.

It is still missing some key features (prioritizing season recordings, for example, and playback control when watching a channel that is being recorded), but at least it works, and I do like it's ability to not record an episode it has already recorded, which is my biggest gripe about my 8300HD with Passport.

I look forward to the day I can let it fill up like I could with my old DirecTIVO and my Passport box, but at least it's a functional DVR now.

Unlike you, I'm not getting paid to "talk up" Navigator. An almost 100% consensus that Navigator is crap...
...I will warn them about that rip-off called Navigator. For around $100 a month, the damn DVR should work. Who let the dawg out! :D
Don’t sweat the fan boy. He’s trying to boost the amount of his Christmas bonus from his employer by spewing personal attacks and clogging the thread with his – “Stay on topic please” rule that applies to everyone but him. :rolleyes:

To update my Cary, NC experiences with the 8300HDC and Navigator:

Since I stopped letting the box fill up (using the equivalent of "Keep all Episodes" whose exact name escapes me at the moment) and now keep it generally under 70% full and typically closer to 50% full, the box has been MUCH more stable. I still reboot once every week or two, but it's not dropping recordings like it used to, or refusing to display video, or hanging up, or any of the other issues I was having. That one change has drastically improved my Navigator experience.

It is still missing some key features (prioritizing season recordings, for example, and playback control when watching a channel that is being recorded), but at least it works, and I do like it's ability to not record an episode it has already recorded, which is my biggest gripe about my 8300HD with Passport.

I look forward to the day I can let it fill up like I could with my old DirecTIVO and my Passport box, but at least it's a functional DVR now.

You can consider adding an eSATA drive; it is not officially supported, but it is very easy and it seems to work, at least for some people. For me, it caused some minor issues, but, in my opinion, extra space is still worth it. The issues were:
List of recorded shows much slower to show up, some other menus sometimes slower as well.
Sometimes - maybe once every 15-20 minutes or so, usually only if machine is recording, especially with both tuners, the picture momentarily dissolves with pixelation - instant replay will be OK, so it is playback, not recording issue. That seem to have stopped happenning, at about the same time as when the cold weather started, so maybe it is due to the external drive getting hot.
I got a Vox enclosure with $250GB drive that was on a one-day sale for $40. You may have a better or worse luck with your drive. xnappo has a database (search his posts and look for signature) with people's reports about different drives compatibility; that may help you choose.

prioritizing season recordings:
I am not sure if you are complaining about having priorities or having a way to change them; sorry if I am stating what you already know. There is a way to do it, but it is very user-hostile: recording that was scheduled later wins, unless per-episode conflict was resolved differently by the user. So, you can do the following: write your series names on a piece of paper, order them the way you want, delete them all from Navigator, then add them in reverse importance order (i.e. the least important ones first). A lot of hassle, but a one-time thing. As you add individual recordings later, they will tend to trump series, since they will be newer. If you have (or suspect you may have) a conflict, go to the Scheduled Recording List. Navigator will display the "losing" one (i.e. the one that will not be recorded due to conflict) with a special icon; if you select it, the box will give you a choice to manually resolve the conflict - i.e. pick which one of your recordings to drop. This will work on a per-recording basis, not per series, so if you don't want to do the same thing every week, sort your series up front as mentioned above, and leave this conflict resolution for individual recordings.

playback control when watching a channel that is being recorded:
this is real bad if tuning to the channel that is recording; the workaround is to go to the List, find the recording and select Play, i.e. start watching from the beginning while the show has advanced some; then it treats it like any other recorded show, so you can fast-forward, instant replay, pause, jump 15 minutes, etc. with no issues.

It's strange that I have noticed on the Lincoln web site it states under new features that Navigator has a priority set up simular to Passport now added and a just this time slot recording option added.Guess the NC cable cons decided to skip those two options.Check out Lincoln Nebraska site for details. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

The Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8550HDC OCAP HD-DVR (160GB) isn't
only H.264 (MPEG) cable box coming to market (soon?):
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7009273.pdf
Note that they did not include VC-1 (aka WMVHD and SMPTE-421M).....

ADB Global's ADB-6820C OCAP HD-STB supports H.264 (MPEG4)
and VC-1 (WMVHD):
http://www.adbglobal.com/files/AUSDS06028%20-%206820C.pdf
Note ADB receives (?) Multi-Room via MoCa DLNA 1.5....& has E-N I/F...

Here's article re COMCAST contract agreements for Panasonic and
Samsung cable boxes, incl. intended use for H.264/MPEG4:
http://www.xchangemag.com/tdhotnews/61h5114533.html
Hmmm: "to enjoy media elements commonly available on the Internet".

Panasonic TZ-PCH1280 OCAP HD-DVR (250 GB min) supports
H.264 (MPEG4) and VC-1:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=181931&catGroupId=49552&surfModel=TZ-PCH2180
Note use of MoCA for Multi-Room....& has E-N I/F...

Samsung SMT-3090 OCAP HD-DVR (160 & 250 GB) also supports
H.264 (MPEG4) and VC-1:
www.cablelabs.com/conferences_public/VF2007/downloads/rhee.ppt

The above brief is from a CableLabs sponsored conference
(see Set Top Box Roadmap to Retail):
http://www.cablelabs.com/conferences_public/VF2007/
Bear in mind cable companies want to quit doing house calls,
and let your local NerdHerd respond to user problems....

========================
These new boxes add a DSG (DOCSIS Gateway) capability:
http://www.cisco.com/application/pdf/en/us/guest/products/ps2211/c1167/ccmigration_09186a00802097cb.pdf
http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/CM-SP-DSG-I11-071206.pdf
This adds/shares a tuner to receive control data via a high-speed
QAM256 carrier, supplementing existing low-speed FDC QPSK tuner.
Which means much faster firmware reload, IPG download, VOD (via IPTV),
new OCAP app. download (games?) and (in the future) DCAS.

Confusing....some spec sheets describe DSG as being "RETURN" or "UP"....
maybe they're also adding UPLINK to supplement RDC????]
Changing the Reverse Data Channel (RDC) from QPSK to high-speed
QAM-256 modulator should speed up VOD FF/RW response.

Also missing from all (except Panasonic) is DOCSIS 3.0 channel bonding...
which would facilitate packing more HD channels via STATMUXs
(surely you know they're coming....).

So bear in mind that there will always be a more capable box "coming soon"....

========================
BTW: Pace sez DC-5xx support OCAP w. 32 (lo-rez HD-511) & 64 MB RAM:
http://www.pacemicro.com/media/americas/pdf/wp_ocap.pdf
As I said earlier, the programmers will try to "make" it fit the RAM size....
And of course a HD-DVR may need more than an SD-STB...

Pace Micro doesn't (yet) show H.264/VC-1 support in U.S. OCAP boxes,
but it's in their Euro (and elsewhere) boxes.

I am in Cary as well, and would concur. All HD channels look excellent; SD channels are hit and miss, with the bad ones being exactly the ones you mentioned. The only SD channel I watch somewhat regularly (SciFI) is pretty good, especially their letterboxed stuff.

As for Navigator in Cary area, there are two isues, stability and UI.

As far as stability is concerned, it appear to be largely box-dependent, i.e. likely not Navigator, but 8300HDC box issue. My first box had "Channel Not Available" bug and other issues in the first week; manual reboots did not help. I got it replaced, and my second box, in use since September, is stable. The only other local poster I remember was jimholcomb, and he had all kind of bad luck with those boxes:

Hope he finally found a decent box.



No, I don't think I've found a decent box yet. #5 went for maybe 10 days without rebooting, then got into a daily reboot cycle, went 5 days without rebooting, now it's daily again.

The thing is it seems to reboot at generally the same time each day. Lately it seems to want to reboot during the 7pm news on 217 but also likes the 10am-11am slot. An earlier box favored 8am - 8:30am.

I found a thread a few days ago I think on AVS where a poster had tons of problems with TWC and the day he canceled his cable guy admitted they had picked him for some sort of testing. I'm starting to wonder if I'm being picked on.

Jim

You need to dump your TWC ramblings in the appropriate thread. Try this one. It is titled the "TWC Consumer Input Thread":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733414

This thread is titled "Time Warner Cable Navigator".

The FUD needs to stop. FUD = Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. It is a very effective marketing tactic and has been put to its best in this thread. Here's Wiki on FUD:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear%2C_uncertainty_and_doubt

With all the FUD being deployed (as a strategy) it has become next to impossible to discuss the topic at hand. I'll point to one of the more prolific posters in this thread as an example. Not only does this poster not use Navigator but this poster does not even use a TWC DVR. And yet consistently attempts to be the Pied Piper. The self proclaimed "leader of the band" in an attempt to organize any and every complaint ever uttered or even whispered about Navigator. Whether valid or not. But like playing whac-a-mole this poster routinely gets pounded back into his hole by those who recognize FUD.

So who works for who? I've never worked for TWC. Never owned even one share of its stock. But are there perhaps FUD purveyors in here that are disgruntled former TWC employees? Or perhaps Aptiv employees who stand to gain? Or in this case not lose - and not lose big. A friend or family member of one perhaps? Who knows. But FUD is easy to recognize - Fear Uncertainty and Doubt merchants are as well. I have no idea of the motivations but like pornography - I know it when I see it.

And this FUD becomes viral. It infects even those who are not consciously employing it. After a while it can remind one of "The Oxbow Incident".

I've posted that my experience with Navigator was very good. Some did not like that. But I did fire TWC last month and moved on. As posted I was not happy with the 160GB hard drive and also not happy when TWC decided to letterbox all 480i content. But Navigator worked fine - and I am not the lone ranger when it comes to this experience. But as posted previously I had a stable HDC box.

So what is the problem with Navigator on a box that is not stable? I don't know. Is it Navigator or the box? The HDC boxes running SARA have been reported to be unstable as well. Is the answer to throw out SARA with the bath water? Dump SARA because of the HDC box? TivoHD and the S3 can have stability issues with cable cards. Dump Tivo? How does Passport run on these HDC boxes? Dump Passport too if the HDC reboots?

My current DVD is a Dish VIP-722. It works great. It has actually been rated favorably when compared to Tivo. It has a 500GB hard drive and does not letter box 480i content - oh - but no clock.

Dish recently pushed down a firmware update. In another forum devoted to Dish there is a thread that discusses problems with the new firmware. Bug reports etc. Some users were negatively affected. Nowhere in the thread has the STB been refereed to as the VIPisser or anything like. Nothing like what has been refereed to as the "third grade" mentality abundantly evident in this thread.

So bring on the FUD. Hopefully there will be somebody left in here that recognizes it. And hopefully the discussion can get on message. Beating up Navigator because of signal strength issues, OCAP issues, cable card issues, etc is just plain naive. It's called barking up the wrong tree. Those issues need to be fixed. Dumping Navigator is not the solution.

Navigator has problems. Sure. What doesn't? It has seen improvement. Lumping every single TWC issue into an anti Navigator campaign is - FUD

My experience with Navigator is limited to about 1 hour at my wife parent's house (I have Passport).

First: they had only standard cable with their HDTV, then upgraded to digital cable with the 8300HDC. They are more than pleased with the box - they have no prior experience to compare it to.

Second: the user interface is simply different. This doesn't make it bad. I had to stop and think a few times to find some things because they weren't in the same place as in Passport. Again this doesn't make it bad, simply different. It did seem to be a little slower, but not by much. There was an occassional "loading" pop-up message that may be what makes people think it is slower.


Third: I can't speak for failed recordings. They have had the box about a month and I haven't heard them say anything about failures. But they don't record a lot.

Fourth: I spent about a week with a Motorola cable box (vacation) last summer. Again different, at 1st I said this stinks, but after a couple of days, no probllem - except: where TWC shows the current show in the top right corner when you are in the Guide, this thing showed ad banners for local businesses - to me that makes the thing bad

First: they had only standard cable with their HDTV, then upgraded to digital cable with the 8300HDC. They are more than pleased with the box - they have no prior experience to compare it to.

This is what TWC counts on. People who aren't tech savvy or don't know any better. The don't have any expectation of how this should perform therefore they don't complain. If a recording is missed they may think they did something wrong.

Is there a date set when time warner would upgrade the software on the cable box DVR 8300HD MANHATTAN NEW YORK CITY

The Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8550HDC OCAP HD-DVR isn't the only
H.264 (MPEG) cable box coming to market (soon?):
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7009273.pdf
Note that they did not include VC-1 (aka WMVHD and SMPTE-421M).....

ADB Global's ADB-6820C OCAP HD-DVR supports H.264 (MPEG4)
and VC-1 (WMVHD):
http://www.adbglobal.com/files/AUSDS06028%20-%206820C.pdf
Note that ADB performs Multi-Room distribution via MoCa DLNA 1.5.

Here's article re COMCAST contract agreements for Panasonic and
Samsung cable boxes, incl. intended use for H.264/MPEG4:
http://www.xchangemag.com/tdhotnews/61h5114533.html
Hmmm: "to enjoy media elements commonly available on the Internet".

Panasonic TZ-PCH1280 OCAP HD-DVR supports H.264 (MPEG4) and VC-1:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=181931&catGroupId=49552&surfModel=TZ-PCH2180

Samsung SMT-3090 OCAP HD-DVR also supports H.264 (MPEG4) and VC-1:
www.cablelabs.com/conferences_public/VF2007/downloads/rhee.ppt

The above brief is from a CableLabs sponsored conference
(see Set Top Box Roadmap to Retail):
http://www.cablelabs.com/conferences_public/VF2007/
Bear in mind cable companies want to quit doing house calls,
and let your local NerdHerd respond to user problems....

========================
These new boxes add a DSG (DOCSIS Gateway) capability.
This adds a dedicated tuner to receive control data via a high-speed
QAM256 carrier, supplementing existing low-speed FDC QPSK tuner.
Which means much faster firmware reload, IPG download, VOD (via IPTV),
new OCAP app. download (games?) and (in the future) DCAS.
[PS: Confusing....DSG "UP" means to STB.]

What is NOT (yet) in these boxes is a high-speed QAM-256 modulator for
the Reverse Data Channel....which should speed up VOD FF/RW response.

Also missing is DOCSIS 3.0 channel bonding...which would facilitate
packing more HD channels via STATMUXs (surely you know they're coming....).

So bear in mind that there will always be a more capable box "coming soon"....

========================
BTW: Pace sez DC-5xx series support OCAP with 32 (lo-rez HD-511) and 64 MB RAM:
http://www.pacemicro.com/media/americas/pdf/wp_ocap.pdf
As I said earlier, the programmers will try to "make" it fit the RAM size....
And of course a HD-DVR may need more than an SD-STB...

Pace Micro doesn't (yet) show H.264/VC-1 support in their OCAP boxes for U.S.,
but it's in their Euro (and elsewhere) boxes.

I am guessing that OCAP might be doing everyone but Scientific Atlanta and Motorola a favor by lowering the barrier to market entry because the DRM is in the CableCARD and no longer in the cable box, allowing others to enter the market without requiring the licensing of the DRM from Motorola or Scientific Atlanta. Thank you for your corrections.

As for DOCSIS Set-top Gateway (a.k.a. DSG), that is standard in the 8300C and 8300HDC. I am not sure if the 8300 and the 8300HD can handle DSG, because their data sheet does not mention it, even for models that have DOCSIS.

Encryption data rights are still being paid for....in the extra cost of the M-CARD....
Hence I'm sure SA8300HDC is more expensive than SA8300HD....they didn't change
much of anything in the design to make it cheaper....same processors etc...

NO DSG, the design for the 8000/8300 series is several years old....

BTW: Since the above new boxes haven't been deployed, it's pretty safe to
surmise cable box firmware & headend S/W is still in development/test....

...I found a thread a few days ago I think on AVS where a poster had tons of problems with TWC and the day he canceled his cable guy admitted they had picked him for some sort of testing. I'm starting to wonder if I'm being picked on.

Jim

That was me in this thread telling about my experience with RoadRunner as TWC introduced network changes to support Digital Phone.

-Marty

Flyer with this month's bill says "exciting new things coming your way blah blah blah" and "in 2008 we will be introducing Navigator, full of exciting new features blah blah blah."

So it's now sometime in 2008 for TW Raleigh.

Sounds very similar to "Navigator coming soon! The first of many exciting new features heading your way." that was posted to the TWC Raleigh site back in Jan 2007. And no, other exciting features did not come my way.

Either way, the longer the delay the more chance SDV TiVO will be an option.

Second: the user interface is simply different. This doesn't make it bad. I had to stop and think a few times to find some things because they weren't in the same place as in Passport. Again this doesn't make it bad, simply different. It did seem to be a little slower, but not by much. There was an occassional "loading" pop-up message that may be what makes people think it is slower.


Third: I can't speak for failed recordings. They have had the box about a month and I haven't heard them say anything about failures. But they don't record a lot.

Fourth: I spent about a week with a Motorola cable box (vacation) last summer. Again different, at 1st I said this stinks, but after a couple of days, no probllem - except: where TWC shows the current show in the top right corner when you are in the Guide, this thing showed ad banners for local businesses - to me that makes the thing bad

Sometimes different is bad. Especially when "different" is a step down. When you take a quality product that people know and switch it for defective crap full of bugs plus eliminate features, IT IS BAD! :( The Navigator interface IS slower. If you punch in a number like 551, Passport goes to the channel immediately. Navigator has a few second delay. Navigator doesn't buffer live TV when the box is off, while watching a recording or on the PIP tuner. Navigator doesn't have the manual recording option. You are forced to record based on the program guide. Navigator does not show any indication of how long shows have before being erased, Passport has the hour glass symbol. what feature does Navigator add? WOW, I can arrange my shows by date OR title! What an improvement!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

So, you can really call these things "different". But, when you've used a better product that has more features, I call them BAD and WRONG!

Flyer with this month's bill says "exciting new things coming your way blah blah blah" and "in 2008 we will be introducing Navigator, full of exciting new features blah blah blah."

So it's now sometime in 2008 for TW Raleigh.

Sounds very similar to "Navigator coming soon! The first of many exciting new features heading your way." that was posted to the TWC Raleigh site back in Jan 2007. And no, other exciting features did not come my way.


Interesting. In my bill this month I get a pamphlet called "Everything Will Click: Introducing Your Digital remote control". Inside it describes the buttons, as they work on Passport. No mentions of the "Access Menu" and the A button or using B to search. It also describes "Quick Settings" and "General Settings" and using A to bring up General Settings.

Interesting. In my bill this month I get a pamphlet called "Everything Will Click: Introducing Your Digital remote control". Inside it describes the buttons, as they work on Passport. No mentions of the "Access Menu" and the A button or using B to search. It also describes "Quick Settings" and "General Settings" and using A to bring up General Settings.
My cable guy told me to go to the Anserws On Demand channel to find out how to use the various features of the new box, but when I went there, via the Access Menu, everything was describing Passport.

In my first week with this POS, my Navigator box has missed scheduled recordings twice due to the bogus errors about "unresolved scheduling conflicts" and "channel not available". Once it gets into that state it will not record anything, including live TV (i.e. pause, rewind). So far, a reboot brings it back to being able to record.

I have trouble buying the theory that has been presented on this forum about "unstable boxes" because a reboot brings it back to normal. Perhaps variations in the hardware that affect timing or invoke other error handling or retry routines within the software could account for some boxes apparently behaving better than others, however this still indicates a software problem, not hardware. If it's a hardware problem it should break and stay broken.

-Marty

On January 30th, according to the TWC Wisconsin Website, TWC is removing the Answers on Demand Channels (1998-Spanish), (1999) for its line up. This would appear to indicate that Navigator will be in place by that time for everyone.

I wonder if they are doing this to free up bandwidth or just to remove all Passport information from the system? AOD could have been helpful for Navigator information. Does TWC have to renew its licensing fees with Passport, as they have chosen not to do, in order to carry that channel? Do you think it could be a bandwidth issue or something else?

Jack

My cable guy told me to go to the Anserws On Demand channel to find out how to use the various features of the new box, but when I went there, via the Access Menu, everything was describing Passport.

In my first week with this POS, my Navigator box has missed scheduled recordings twice due to the bogus errors about "unresolved scheduling conflicts" and "channel not available". Once it gets into that state it will not record anything, including live TV (i.e. pause, rewind). So far, a reboot brings it back to being able to record.

I have trouble buying the theory that has been presented on this forum about "unstable boxes" because a reboot brings it back to normal. Perhaps variations in the hardware that affect timing or invoke other error handling or retry routines within the software could account for some boxes apparently behaving better than others, however this still indicates a software problem, not hardware. If it's a hardware problem it should break and stay broken.

-Marty

Computers are an exception to the rule that hardware failures bring everything down. Here is a list of many hardware problems that could cause errors that do not halt the box totally:

The box is overheating. Are you sure that your box is not surrounded by or enclosed in a tight space? This situation has killed cable boxes before when my father put them in the enclosed shelf below the television, causing the hot air the cable boxes produce to be unable to escape, causing the cable box to bake itself to death.
The box's power supply unit (PSU) is failing. A bad PSU will generate bad power to the box. Computer chips tend to flip bits (meaning that 1s and 0s that should stay 1s and 0s instead become 0s and 1s) when they are fed power they are not designed to take.
The power coming into the box is bad. If the PSU is incapable of compensating for bad power, then it will generate bad power for the chips.
There is radon in your house. Radioactivity is known to flip bits in memory. In this case, the best thing to do is to move to another house because radon usually only shows up on areas where uranium is buried, nofiy your neighbors, and the local zoning authority to have the land rezoned for uranium mining. If you are not willing to go to these extremes, open your windows often.
There is a problem messing up the reverse data path your cable box uses on your cable like too many splitters. A reverse data path is some channel your cable box uses to upload requests and data to the cable head end somewhere in between the 5MHz and 42MHz frequencies. The forward path is from 54MHz and above. On a well-designed house, there is either zero splitters or one splitter in a house, where this splitter is combined with an amplifier. This amplifier normally amplifies the forward channels but does nothing to the reverse data path. Both paths are then weakened by the splitter after the amplification stage. Ironically, weakening the reverse data path is often a good thing because it reduces both signal and noise coming out of the house, causing the headend to tell the cable boxes and modems in your house use more transmission power, eventually boosting the signal to noise ratio. However, there can be too much of a good thing that makes it so that your modems and boxes can't be heard. In these cases, an amplifier/splitter combo with a reverse data path amplifier is used, but only after all but the main splitter have been removed and there still is a problem with the reverse data path, because these amplifiers amplify both the noise and the signal, and add more noise to the cable plant due to the nature of the amplifiers.

...
I have trouble buying the theory that has been presented on this forum about "unstable boxes" because a reboot brings it back to normal. Perhaps variations in the hardware that affect timing or invoke other error handling or retry routines within the software could account for some boxes apparently behaving better than others, however this still indicates a software problem, not hardware. If it's a hardware problem it should break and stay broken.

-Marty

For me it was one box badly broken, the other box stable, both running the exact same version of Navigator. How do you explain that with software alone? As for hardware stuff remaining broken, that's not necessarily true: I used a ReplayTV that was having troubles that caused frequent need for rebots when I put it in a somewhat enclosed space; adding a fan to it fixed the problem. I've seen many other flaky pieces of hardware, even not computer-related, that sometimes work and sometimes do not, and when they do not work, you need to reset them somehow, and then they work again for while. This may be the same thing. Note that the hardware state may be reset during reboot as well. Since the problem comes back, reboot does not bring it back to real stability, only to "stability until something acts up again". Try another box, maybe you get lucky; then again, you may have more or different problems, you never know (ask jimholcomb).

I am on SARA 1.89.17.1 in Greensboro NC. Jan 30 is last day for our answers on command channels also. Have received no notice but feel Navigator is on the way. That is strange because TWC just started useing SDV on several hd and digital channels here useing sara.Who knows whats comeing.Just hold my breath and wait.

That was me in this thread telling about my experience with RoadRunner as TWC introduced network changes to support Digital Phone.

-Marty

Yes, I guess I could have searched a bit before posting. The frustrating thing is I've had TW cable at this house for the last 18 years, RoadRunner for probably the last 6 years, and Digital Phone for the last 2. I've had excellent service until I went HD and swapped out my non-HD box.

My cable guy told me to go to the Answers On Demand channel to find out how to use the various features of the new box, but when I went there, via the Access Menu, everything was describing Passport.

In my first week with this POS, my Navigator box has missed scheduled recordings twice due to the bogus errors about "unresolved scheduling conflicts" and "channel not available". Once it gets into that state it will not record anything, including live TV (i.e. pause, rewind). So far, a reboot brings it back to being able to record.

I have trouble buying the theory that has been presented on this forum about "unstable boxes" because a reboot brings it back to normal. Perhaps variations in the hardware that affect timing or invoke other error handling or retry routines within the software could account for some boxes apparently behaving better than others, however this still indicates a software problem, not hardware. If it's a hardware problem it should break and stay broken.

-Marty

Marty,

What you are describing sounds more like a head-end issue rather than a box issue. It could be run-time routines are not synchronizing with the box when an update is sent via download "down the line." (Not necessarily Navigator.)

For my DVR, which is still Passport, a family member who watches late-night,early morning TV reports a reboot about every week between 4-6 am. It is possible that if anyone is having "Channel Not Available" bugs regardless of the software used that the box could "clear the way, on its own." with an update during the time of lowest viewership. If it is a software related issue, maybe TWC could and should schedule automatic reboots from once a week to twice a week during a low viewership time. If the problems are resolved, even temporarily through a box reboot, I would agree with you that it is not the box that is an issue.

Jack

Computers are an exception to the rule that hardware failures bring everything down. Here is a list of many hardware problems that could cause errors that do not halt the box totally:

The box is overheating. Are you sure that your box is not surrounded by or enclosed in a tight space? This situation has killed cable boxes before when my father put them in the enclosed shelf below the television, causing the hot air the cable boxes produce to be unable to escape, causing the cable box to bake itself to death.
The box's power supply unit (PSU) is failing. A bad PSU will generate bad power to the box. Computer chips tend to flip bits (meaning that 1s and 0s that should stay 1s and 0s instead become 0s and 1s) when they are fed power they are not designed to take.
The power coming into the box is bad. If the PSU is incapable of compensating for bad power, then it will generate bad power for the chips.
There is radon in your house. Radioactivity is known to flip bits in memory. In this case, the best thing to do is to move to another house because radon usually only shows up on areas where uranium is buried, nofiy your neighbors, and the local zoning authority to have the land rezoned for uranium mining. If you are not willing to go to these extremes, open your windows often.
There is a problem messing up the reverse data path your cable box uses on your cable like too many splitters. A reverse data path is some channel your cable box uses to upload requests and data to the cable head end somewhere in between the 5MHz and 42MHz frequencies. The forward path is from 54MHz and above. On a well-designed house, there is either zero splitters or one splitter in a house, where this splitter is combined with an amplifier. This amplifier normally amplifies the forward channels but does nothing to the reverse data path. Both paths are then weakened by the splitter after the amplification stage. Ironically, weakening the reverse data path is often a good thing because it reduces both signal and noise coming out of the house, causing the headend to tell the cable boxes and modems in your house use more transmission power, eventually boosting the signal to noise ratio. However, there can be too much of a good thing that makes it so that your modems and boxes can't be heard. In these cases, an amplifier/splitter combo with a reverse data path amplifier is used, but only after all but the main splitter have been removed and there still is a problem with the reverse data path, because these amplifiers amplify both the noise and the signal, and add more noise to the cable plant due to the nature of the amplifiers.

Thank you for this information, but I think you're grasping at straws.

Sure, weird things can happen, but we're talking about widespread problems with bunches of customers. In 25+ years of working with computers, I agree with you to an extent because I have seen some weird things, but normally there is a very reasonable explanation and common sense prevails.

My cable box sits by itself atop an open stand in a rather cool room and all my electronics are behind a Tripp-Lite LC1200 line conditioner.

Radon? That makes me laugh. :rolleyes: Yeah, sure that's the problem. Not that this software sucks, but rather radon is flipping bits. Are you sure it isn't cosmic rays? The bits weren't flipping unintentionally in my Passport box.

People have reported exchanging their boxes 5 times in search of a "stable" one. That's not the odd, bad power supply. That's a flaw in the system.

Not to mention that when I talk to the phone support people, they say that they are getting a lot of calls on these boxes. At some point you have to give some credence to the numerous complaints. All these customers are not morons or troublemakers or imagining things - they are reporting what is actually happening and they just want the service they are paying for.

Thanks for the reverse data path explanation. Could that cause my DVR to stop working?

Over the years, through all the TWC problems and techs that have been to the house, they have got it down to one three-way splitter with continuous runs from there to the TVs. The most recent cable guy said the signal looks fine, even better than average, coming to my HD box. He said nothing about the reverse channel. An amplifier has been used at times and is still mounted outside, although they have not hooked it up for a long time. They have had two amps on th house since I lived here, but neither of them (from what I could derive from the markings on the amp) was the type that would amplify the reverse channel.

Thanks again for taking the time to post a thorough response and I do sincerely appreciate it even though I had to rag on you a bit over the radon theory. This area is not known for radon problems, though I have never had my house tested.

-Marty

...For my DVR, which is still Passport, a family member who watches late-night,early morning TV reports a reboot about every week between 4-6 am. It is possible that if anyone is having "Channel Not Available" bugs regardless of the software used that the box could "clear the way, on its own." with an update during the time of lowest viewership. ...
My friend who generally watches TV during the wee hours makes frequent complaints about her box loading updates during her viewing hours.

A couple points differentiate her situation from mine: she does not have the DVR box and she lives in an area where her TWC service has always been excellent, including RR and Digital Phone.

Unfortunately she only got a digital TV box recently so we have no comparison whether her "old" was better than the "new". Her box was Navigator right from day one (a couple months ago).

-Marty

Well - lump me in with all the other folks who think Navigator is a POS. :(

I just got my TWC digital cable box 'upgraded' to a SA8300HDC last night.

In less that 24 hours I've had to reboot the device 3 times for:
1) complete loss of video signal - although audio comes thru fine (I swapped HDMI cables but the problem persisted, other video sources thru my AVR showed up fine)
2) 'tiled' video with no audio when randomly switching between SD and HD channels (I get a tiled image of about 6 squares of identical video on my HDTV)
3) intermittent audio with video: the audio will cut in and out (like a bad SNL skit with Chevy Chase)

And everytime I reboot the device it takes longer than a bloated Microsoft Windows PC.

{Oh - forgot to add that twice during a reboot I got the E-13 error message and had to restart the reboot.}

I haven't even dared try any of the DVR features yet - too scared to.

I knew this was coming....

Erik

Erik - Please post your location (city/state) in your profile, signature, or within your post.

I'm in San Diego, CA.

Erik

I'm in San Diego, CA.

ErikErik, Please click on the UserCP tab at the top and change your profile to include that location in your profile. That way your location will always show with any post you make. Regulars to the cable threads really need that information to put any post you make within the correct context ("where you are coming from") as things with cable vary tremendously from cable system to cable system.

I'm in San Diego, CA.

Erik

Take the box back to the office ASAP for a passport 8300HD, trust me, it will get NO better with Crapigator....

Thank you for this information, but I think you're grasping at straws.

Sure, weird things can happen, but we're talking about widespread problems with bunches of customers. In 25+ years of working with computers, I agree with you to an extent because I have seen some weird things, but normally there is a very reasonable explanation and common sense prevails.

My cable box sits by itself atop an open stand in a rather cool room and all my electronics are behind a Tripp-Lite LC1200 line conditioner.

Radon? That makes me laugh. :rolleyes: Yeah, sure that's the problem. Not that this software sucks, but rather radon is flipping bits. Are you sure it isn't cosmic rays? The bits weren't flipping unintentionally in my Passport box.

People have reported exchanging their boxes 5 times in search of a "stable" one. That's not the odd, bad power supply. That's a flaw in the system.

Not to mention that when I talk to the phone support people, they say that they are getting a lot of calls on these boxes. At some point you have to give some credence to the numerous complaints. All these customers are not morons or troublemakers or imagining things - they are reporting what is actually happening and they just want the service they are paying for.

Thanks for the reverse data path explanation. Could that cause my DVR to stop working?

Over the years, through all the TWC problems and techs that have been to the house, they have got it down to one three-way splitter with continuous runs from there to the TVs. The most recent cable guy said the signal looks fine, even better than average, coming to my HD box. He said nothing about the reverse channel. An amplifier has been used at times and is still mounted outside, although they have not hooked it up for a long time. They have had two amps on th house since I lived here, but neither of them (from what I could derive from the markings on the amp) was the type that would amplify the reverse channel.

Thanks again for taking the time to post a thorough response and I do sincerely appreciate it even though I had to rag on you a bit over the radon theory. This area is not known for radon problems, though I have never had my house tested.

-Marty

I forgot one possible problem, because I never dealt with CableCARDs in my life:


Maybe the CableCARD is not seated properly in the CableCARD slot. Try reseating it if you know how to do that.


As for the radon, what made me think about it is some passage about computer history in a computer textbook, and how bad power flips bits. In older times, PCs had memory parity. This was used to halt the computer whenever a bit got flipped, which was rather often. Nobody knew what was flipping bits until one company discovered that naturally occurring radioactive isotopes in the chips were flipping the bits. Semiconductor companies then invested in equipment to filter out these radioactive isotopes before they would be used to create the chips. I was trying to be thorough, but unintentionally became funny.

Take the box back to the office ASAP for a passport 8300HD, trust me, it will get NO better with Crapigator....

Sick of Change is right! But it depends on your area. I've read that some areas are no longer giving out Passport boxes at all. You may get lucky.

But Crapigator is just that: CRAP! Don't get "sucked in" by the Navigator Cheerleaders on this forum.

Erik, Please click on the UserCP tab at the top and change your profile to include that location in your profile. That way your location will always show with any post you make. Regulars to the cable threads really need that information to put any post you make within the correct context ("where you are coming from") as things with cable vary tremendously from cable system to cable system.

Indeed. Since some are experiencing little or no problems with Navigator or the 8300HDC box per se, clearly the problem is not always *Navigator* or the box, but region-specific differences in cable service and implementation, the hysterical ravings of some here notwithstanding.

Again, I've been using the Navigator/8300HDC combo for a couple of weeks now, in lower Manhattan, and have experienced no 'tiling', no audio dropouts, and so far only one reboot needed on the second day of service (none since then).

So krabapple, why don't you change YOUR location to something other than a wise-ass comment?

Indeed. Since some are experiencing little or no problems with Navigator or the 8300HDC box per se, clearly the problem is not always *Navigator* or the box, but region-specific differences in cable service and implementation, the hysterical ravings of some here notwithstanding.

Again, I've been using the Navigator/8300HDC combo for a couple of weeks now, in lower Manhattan, and have experienced no 'tiling', no audio dropouts, and so far only one reboot needed on the second day of service (none since then).

WELL LA-DEE FREAKEN DAH!! Crapigator is successful for about 3% of the people who have it, guess that means it's ready to go live nationwide! :rolleyes: It is according to Time Warner Logic.

I got the same lip service when I called to complain. A serviceperson who could barely speak english tells me I have a signal problem. After the parade of techs that have been through my house this year, please! I've had the line from the street to my house replaced as well as the linse inside. The signal level was checked at all places and was OK. A signal problem is NOT causing the DVR to miss shows or audio dropouts on recorded shows.

If anyone is having Navigator issues, take your box back to the office and explain your problems, maybe you'll be lucky and get a Passport or SARA box. It all depends on your particular area. Some areas are no longer giving non-C boxes out.

What is disheartening and troublesome is that TWC is a national corporation.

I also work for a national corporation that deals with the Govt for contract work.

If our performance was similar to what TWC has provided with Navigator we would not get paid.

Our policies are nation wide, with common criteria for QA and CM. Obviously this is not the case with TWC with people commenting that QOS is regionally dependent. The STB is a common platform with a standardized version of Navigator - that the QOS is so radically different and seemingly nation wide (I've yet to see some sort of trend that only certain city providers are experiencing the 'anomalies' of Navigator/SA8300HDC configurations) seems indicative of a lack of responsibility of TWC Corporate Home Office for ensuring "Top Down" QA.

As an end consumer I have options, albeit limited:
1) communicate my complaints to TWC and see if they can rectify the unreliable service they provide
2) communicate my disastisfaction by 'voting with my pocket book' and switching services

My dissappointment with TWC is not new and restricted to my recent 'upgrade' to HDTV. I've experienced internet disruption, digital cable freezes during prime time viewing, periodic display freezes/pixelation, among other things.

For now, I just have to hope that my STB works when I want it too and not restort to constant reboots, exchanges, and calls to Customer Service.

Is that really what a paying customer should have to do - hope that the service I pay for works on a reliable basis?

Erik

What is disheartening and troublesome is that TWC is a national corporation.

I also work for a national corporation that deals with the Govt for contract work.

If our performance was similar to what TWC has provided with Navigator we would not get paid.

Our policies are nation wide, with common criteria for QA and CM. Obviously this is not the case with TWC with people commenting that QOS is regionally dependent. The STB is a common platform with a standardized version of Navigator - that the QOS is so radically different and seemingly nation wide (I've yet to see some sort of trend that only certain city providers are experiencing the 'anomalies' of Navigator/SA8300HDC configurations) seems indicative of a lack of responsibility of TWC Corporate Home Office for ensuring "Top Down" QA.

As an end consumer I have options, albeit limited:
1) communicate my complaints to TWC and see if they can rectify the unreliable service they provide
2) communicate my dissatisfaction by 'voting with my pocket book' and switching services

My disappointment with TWC is not new and restricted to my recent 'upgrade' to HDTV. I've experienced Internet disruption, digital cable freezes during prime time viewing, periodic display freezes/pixelation, among other things.

For now, I just have to hope that my STB works when I want it too and not resort to constant reboots, exchanges, and calls to Customer Service.

Is that really what a paying customer should have to do - hope that the service I pay for works on a reliable basis?

Erik

Hi Eric,

Welcome to the Navigator Forum,

I have addressed some serious questions in the TWC Customer Input thread section, which can be found by linking here. (It will be the last or near to last post on the page.) It addresses TWC chain of command and the issues of service competency from division to division. Feel free to reply to my questions in that thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733414&page=23

But I guess the question that no one has answered yet is even among the VERY FEW divisions where Navigator is working properly, how can this software be an "upgrade" of ANY kind? The plans for Navigator are simply not consistent with what this technology currently offers. For people paying between $150-$200 a month who's idea was it to release this product? A cable tech that I talked to said that the new OCAP boxes were being called, "OCRAP" by industry insiders and that he was hoping that Navigator could be shelved for AT LEAST ANOTHER YEAR so that the bugs could be worked out. This IS going to be 2008 in another month. TWC, the second largest cable operator in the world should have a beautifully functioning Tivo-like guide with features that are "bigger than life." and function at a 95% or higher work rate. (at the lowest.)

Where is the advanced technology that is supposed to be reflected in the time period of today? TWC has done very well in most markets with Digital Phone and High Speed Internet Service. However, they have to be losing money by exponential leaps and bounds with all the box returns and angry customers in poorly developed Navigator divisions.

Furthermore, the services that ARE being promised by TWC such as E-bay on TV, Interactive Polling, Video Games, and more HD offerings for those with new HD sets, aren't going to mean sh!t if Navigator can not get up to proper quality control standards in all markets. NO ONE, and I repeat NO ONE should have to expect anything less from a major national corporation. A major national corporation that is absolutely clueless on how to make a little interactive program guide work reliably across state lines! This Navigator is becoming a bad PR joke for TWC. But for its customers in problematic divisions, it is certainly no laughing matter.

Jack

So krabapple, why don't you change YOUR location to something other than a wise-ass comment?

I dunno...maybe because I've mentioned that I live in Manhattan, in almost every post I've made on the topic so far?

And FWIW, I'm paying somewhat over $80/month, with the recent rate hike. That includes HBO and Showtime, otherwise it'd be quite a bit less.

the question that no one has answered yet is even among the VERY FEW divisions where Navigator is working properly, how can this software be an "upgrade" of ANY kind? The plans for Navigator are simply not consistent with what this technology currently offers. For people paying between $150-$200 a month who's idea was it to release this product? A cable tech that I talked to said that the new OCAP boxes were being called, "OCRAP" by industry insiders and that he was hoping that Navigator could be shelved for AT LEAST ANOTHER YEAR so that the bugs could be worked out. This IS going to be 2008 in another month. TWC, the second largest cable operator in the world should have a beautifully functioning Tivo-like guide with features that are "bigger than life." and function at a 95% or higher work rate. (at the lowest.)

Where is the advanced technology that is supposed to be reflected in the time period of today? TWC has done very well in most markets with Digital Phone and High Speed Internet Service. However, they have to be losing money by exponential leaps and bounds with all the box returns and angry customers in poorly developed Navigator divisions.


The Almighty Dollar. Time Warner put alot of money into this project and they're not going to dump it that fast. Plus, holding back on Navigator downloads may mean having to pay license fees for SARS or Passport. They seem to not care that customers are getting pi$$ed and leaving and when Navigator is spread, I can only see the number of cancellations going up. The rates continually go up and the quality of service continually goes down.

Furthermore, the services that ARE being promised by TWC such as E-bay on TV, Interactive Polling, Video Games, and more HD offerings for those with new HD sets, aren't going to mean sh!t if Navigator can not get up to proper quality control standards in all markets.

Navigator is not necessary for those features. Passport Echo 2.7 has even more features. There's a feature similar to the "Access Menu" that can show PPV, VOD and other similar Navigator features. There's also an interactive video mosaic that can show mulitple channels on one screen. It looks similar to soething Directv did.

IMO, Time Warner needs to abandon Navigator and just pay the fees for updated SARA and Passport.

... I live in Manhattan, Kansas ? ...Sorry, had to...

n/s/r, :p
C-F

As you were, post your location, spay your pet, back to the bickering, et cætera, etc., and so on...

The Almighty Dollar. Time Warner put alot of money into this project and they're not going to dump it that fast. Plus, holding back on Navigator downloads may mean having to pay license fees for SARS or Passport. They seem to not care that customers are getting pi$$ed and leaving and when Navigator is spread, I can only see the number of cancellations going up. The rates continually go up and the quality of service continually goes down.



Navigator is not necessary for those features. Passport Echo 2.7 has even more features. There's a feature similar to the "Access Menu" that can show PPV, VOD and other similar Navigator features. There's also an interactive video mosaic that can show mulitple channels on one screen. It looks similar to soething Directv did.

IMO, Time Warner needs to abandon Navigator and just pay the fees for updated SARA and Passport.

That's all well and nice, but are SARA and Passport known to be stable on HDC boxes (as you know, there's no going back to HD boxes)? If that's the case, I'm all for it. If not, I actually find Navigator's UI looking better than SARA's or Passport's (I guess the one you get used to always does, barring drastic differences), and I haven't heard of any Passport/SARA feature that would make enough of a difference for me to choose it over Navigator. The best one I heard of is the ability to schedule series recordings per time slot, and that's not a big deal for me - to me, it would be only useful as a workaround when New flag is unreliable; for all shows that I watch, except a couple at ESPN, New flag was reliable so far.

I guess it is simply beyond the intellectual capacity of some of the posters in this thread to comprehend that many of the problems with the SA8300HDC STBs are SA8300HDC related. Meaning although Navigator is obviously a work in progress many of the problems reported are also experienced on SA8300HDC boxes being deployed by other cableco carriers. Comcast for example. Last I checked Comcast was not in the process of deploying SA8300HDC boxes with Navigator installed. Various quotes from both Comcast and TWC customers:

From a Comcast customer::

I have moved back to Comcast territory in Connecticut, back in with the 'rents for now (give me a break, I'm only 24!). Anyway, I stopped by the local office in Waterbury yesterday to pick up an HD DVR. They gave me a Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC, note the "C" at the end. It looks just like the 8300HD, but it has a CableCard slot in the back, and came with the CableCard in it already.

So, I get it back to the house and connect it. I have noticed slight differences in the on screen guide, subtle, but there. It says "NEW" in the program description if the program is first-run, and also shows the programs rating in the info bar next to the program name. The 8300HD that is in the living room does not have these features.

But I'm getting away from my actual issue and reason for posting. When watching digital channels (HD and SD) on the 8300HDC, there is occasional sound dropout (lasts for about 2-4 seconds), while the picture continues to move. Then, the exact opposite also happens. The picture will freeze for 2-4 seconds, but sound will continue in the background. If I watch a 3 hour baseball game, some combination of these issues will happen probably 10 times or so. This does not happen on the 8300HD in the living room. Also, it's not a signal problem, as I have checked, and get a slightly better signal in my room than the living room.
So basically, does anyone else here have the 8300HDC, and if so, do you have the same problem? I want to know if it's a universal problem, able to be fixed in a firmware update, or if I have a bad box and need to swap. Thanks!

Edit: I should also point out that I am using HDMI for both video and audio right now until I connect my surround sound system. But, I did try doing component with analog audio as well, and still have the same problem. Also, I know it's not a problem with video connection as the problems I'm having are being recorded by the DVR, if I go back and rewind afte they happened, or watch a recording.

From someone who appears to be a TWC service tech (only because the emaill address had a .rr address - who knows). But no Navigator references. Blames the SA8300HDC box:

i know what you mean about the 8300 hdc box...i'm a service tech. for a major cable company and i see this on a daily trend....rebooting the box will help in some cases...but the problem still comes back....also when rebooting the box it takes about 5 to 10 minutes to come back on....i have also seen the box not wanting to record a scheduled recording that you would program....have seen them missing channels, sound, movies on demand not working, and error messages.....i have brought this up to are engineers and they all say is the problem will be fixed...we are also not supposed to replace the box because they say it will fix itself...but when you have a product that causes this much of a problem, the smart thing would be to replace it.....and another thing i have had issues with is digital channels ...the sound is alot lower sounding then your regular analog channels....all in all my Recommendation is to request the 8300 box, and let them know whats going on with the hdc box....if customers and techs both complain enough, they might get the hint....

From a Comcast customer:

Wow, I just tried watching some on demand stuff wih the 8300HDC, and it's pretty much useless. I tried watching 3 different programs, and they all froze up completely, some after 20 seconds, others after about 3 minutes.

They GOTTA fix this box!

A TWC customer in response to the Comcast customer:

I am not a comcast customer, I have TWC in Kansas city, however i have the SAME PROBLEMS. It started with the sound cutout, then the DVR missed some scheduled programs, then the DVR menu/guide/channel change stopped working. Sometimes when you turn the DVR off, it doesn't actually turn off. The boyfriend and i have turned in two of these boxes in as many months and are now on the third. We were able to fix the problems by unplugging it and plugging it back in, at least for a while. Now, however, the DVR will not record anything, it has mysteriously deleted our recordings, sometimes it refuses to load, and still has all of the above problems. From my research, it seems to be a problem either with the box, requiring a firmware update from SA or a problem with the card in the back which enables TWC or whoever your provider is to run a crappy program.

Another Comcast customer:

Man I thought I was the only one with this issue. Back in July I swapped out my SA8300HD at my local office for a SA8300HDC. Pretty much since day one, I had some minor issues, which I thought would go away. Then I started noticing freezing of the picture and audio dropouts, which would occur at random times. Very annoying if you're trying to watch either a live program or especially a recorded program.
So one day, I left the box off overnight, plugged it back in the next morning and received software/firmware upgrades which basically rectified the issue. Occasionally I will get slight pixelation for about a few seconds, but the problem is all but gone.

Another Comcast customer:
I've been having issues since i upgraded from the 8300 to the HDMI version of the HD-DVR (8300 HDC). With the other box, i had no issues. Now, every day i have to unplug my device and plug it back in. I can watch HBO, Howard, or any other onDemand for a random amount of time before they all end up freezing after 3 seconds.
I called Comcast and they said i need a new box, but i know that's not true becaause this one is new and everyone else is reporting the issue. I also experience audio cut outs on regular, hd, and onDemand channels.

I really dont want to unplug and replug my box every time i want to use onDemand. Has anyone found anything else on this?

Another Comcast customer:
I had a SA 8000HD that I needed to replace due to its lack of HDMI, so I went to Comcast payment center with the intent of swapping it with a 8300HD. They only had HDC models available (i asked for 8300HD of course), and while I was well aware that these boxes had some issues, how bad could they be? Well, pretty bad, at least for watching recordings. Audio glitches are constant, although video freezing has not been a major issue. I wish I could get my 8000HD back now, but I don't think Comcast will give it to me. I miss my Motorola DCT3416 from when I lived in Illinois. Hopefully a firmware update is released ASAP.

A TWC customer:

Hey, guys. Im in Ohio, under Time Warner Cable out of Columbus. Less than a month ago, I ordered Didgital Cable with the DVR... I got the 8300HDC box, and let me tell ya, its a piece of ****. Im having all the same problems with this box as you all are. Within the last 48 hours, Ive had a boat-load of issues. Things happening like the Pause not working on live TV, no rewind, and here's the lastest BS: A firmware upgrade about 3 am. Automatically. The firmware finished upgrading, and the box has re-booted about 6 times. I called Time Warner and got yet another day credited to my account. I told them if they bring another one of these pieces of **** out here, they might as well keep it, and I'll entertain myself with only the internet. Point being: I believe that these Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC cable boxes are all LEMONS, after reading reviews around the country.

A Comcast customer:

So I had one of the infamous locked up VOD instances tonight, so I rebooted my box. When it came back on, it display on the unit flashed "dnld" then "card", so I powered on the box to see if it would show on screen what it was doing. It said it was downloading a firmware upgrade for my CableCard. It took a few minutes, then said my box would reboot. It's rebooting right now as I type. I'm probably hoping wrong here, but I am hoping that they maybe were able to find the problems lying within an incompatibility between the Card and the box, and this upgrade may fix the problems. I doubt it, but will check it out.

And last but not least.

A TWC customer with the SA8300HDC running SARA:

THIS IS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF SH!T.

Ive had tivo, from directv which was awesome, swithed to DISH's DVR due to the 40+ HD channels and since I moved I called Time Warner to come out and setup some HD cable and internet. They came out this past monday and I started setting my recording list up to record some things on fox HD.
I am with Time Warner I have the 8300HDC in the diag menu it shows SARA and I'm in austin, tx. Well my shows monday night was dropping out to the point where the listing that was recorded would show up like 5 times in the list menu. one for like 2 minutes, one for 5 minutes, 1min, 13min etc.. all for one show. Also it did not record one show which was not conflicting, and one show had audio no picture. I am really missing my Dish DVR at this point.I called the installers wednesday morning wanted to give the dvr another chance. SAME CRAP! They came out and replaced all the connections in the apartment, including the connections outside and said if this didnt work they would get a new box installed. Wednesday same stuff. Called thursday and they brought a new box out. Thursday night, friday, and saturday its still happening. Also the remote fails to respond sometimes and when you hit the skip back it sometimes goes to the beginning of the show. This is the biggest pile of junk and the worst dvr layout I have ever seen. Where is the priority list? Where is the episode number of the show? Where are folders at? the list goes on and on. I am glad I do not have a contract. Might just stick with dish and pay the extra insurance to install it on the apartment.

Emphasis added.

From here:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18956308-Scientific-Atlanta-8300HDC

So are the problems reported by the Comcast customers Navigator related? Or box related? They sound familiar don't they? Are the problems reported by SA8300HDCs running SARA also Navigator related? How could that be? I want some of you people to really really try this time to provide a logical response.

...I'm paying somewhat over $80/month, with the recent rate hike. That includes HBO and Showtime,..“Somewhat over…”
I’m curious; do you round off your cable monthly amount the same broad way you do locations?:p :D

The reason I ask, that is very low for a New York TW bill. Do you have Road Runner or are you using Verizon DSL? Most folks I know pay $200 give or take $25.

From here:
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18956308-Scientific-Atlanta-8300HDC

So are the problems reported by the Comcast customers Navigator related? Or box related? They sound familiar don't they? Are the problems reported by SA8300HDCs running SARA also Navigator related? How could that be? I want some of you people to really really try this time to provide a logical response.
They sure do sound familiar. -Marty

Nextoo's examples show very strong evidence that the issues may indeed be related to the new cable card "C" boxes, regardless of the software platform used. The big test will be an evaluation of the Navigator IPG on non-C boxes and DVR's, which is scheduled sometime between the end of the year and next month to Metro-Milwaukee areas.

Thank you for the information.

Jack

Remember that the box in question is the SA 8300HDC. I see you sometimes refer to it as the 8300HD.

There are many possibilities these new comments are causing me to think of:

Scientific-Atlanta's OCAP middleware and Java Virtual Machine known as Axiom is a POS.
These boxes are really designed badly. They just need a green ring that turns red like the XBox 360 to show error status. (Look up RROD or Red Ring of Death if you don't get my joke.)
The CableCARDs are seated wrong during installation.
The programmers of the OCAP applications are aware that the 8300HDC has two CPUs, so they are using multithreading, which splits a program into independent tasks different CPUs can work on independently and simultaneously. Unfortunately, it is extremely easy to goof when using multithreading. (I have actually used multithreading in my undergraduate computer engineering classes, so I know from experience.)
The programmers are not used to OCAP. Since OCAP is almost an exact copy of a successful European common API, MHP, with a few changes to make it workable in American cable systems, maybe we should outsource the initial programming of OCAP IPGs to Europe for quality reasons, like when the Metroid Prime series was outsourced to America from Nintendo because Americans really know how to program first person shooters.

Remember that the box in question is the SA 8300HDC. I see you sometimes refer to it as the 8300HD.

Where? I don't see that. But then again you see things most people don't. Again where?
As I read through the posts and quoted user experiences I made sure the boxes in question were SA8300HDCs. But I guess I could have experienced an oversight. Help me out. Where?

edit - I think I know what you mean. My first sentence and the my comment about the cable tech line. Edited and fixed to refelect an HDC box. My post is exclusively about SA8300HDC user experiebces and comments.

I am starting to think along the presumption of the C boxes being the problem, that the firmware manufactures of the boxes, SA prominently, did not communicate the cons of OCAP functionality to the cable operators, resulting in the mess that we are in now. If all operating IPG's are effected in the same way (i.e Passport, Navigator, and Sara) resulting in such Negative performance, than it stands to reason that the OCAP boxes, (a.k.a OCRAP) could really be the problem. It would be interesting for someone to contact SA for them to respond to this information. It goes back to my belief that the FCC should not have implemented that deadline of July 1, 2007 for the new OCAP boxes to be deployed because very very few box manufactures or cable companies had tested their systems for the upgrades.

But since Navigator was being deployed to most TWC markets with OCAP boxes, it is now getting easy to see why it was blamed. Whether or not it still will be over time is going to depend on the successful rollout of Navigator to non-C boxes/DVR's. Maybe Wisconsin cable's head-end, where Nextoo and I are from, has more skilled programmers who understand the nature and functionality of OCAP hardware and how to implement the software on it.

Even more importantly, some cable systems as a whole may not be ready to run OCAP technologies.

Jack

PS. Here is the REAL $64,000 Question: What are the cable companies DOING with the returned OCAP boxes? Are they really going back to SA and the other companies for evaluation, or are the clueless installers just wrapping up the boxes and than they are being passed off as new to unsuspecting customers? Years ago, when I talked to TWC, they said new boxes have an ID red tag code on the wrappers that distinguishes them from the used models. (Who the hell knows how often this practice is followed? However, that's what a CSR told me.)

But since Navigator was being deployed to most TWC markets with OCAP boxes, it is now getting easy to see why it was blamed.Jack, You are tying the CableCARD boxes too closely with OCAP. I understand that MOST TWC systems are SARA, and so far, TWC has not yet deployed Navigator to CC boxes in those SARA systems.

However, nextoo's comments about 8300HDC problems on Comcast* are right on target. There indeed have been lots of 8300HDC problems in non-OCAP systems, indicating that many of the problems that folks here are attributing to Navigator are just as likely due to software issues with the CableCARDs.

*Note: Though nextoo drew his quotes from a "Comcast" thread, there are lots of TW customers posting there too. Those problems really relate to SARA 1.90.xx.xx, which is used by all major cable companies (Comcast, TWC, COX) on many of their systems.

Hey Navigator Propagandist:

Hey, lets keep this forum friendly. We can disagree without the accusations.

xnappo

I am starting to think along the presumption of the C boxes being the problem, that the firmware manufactures of the boxes, SA prominently, did not communicate the cons of OCAP functionality to the cable operators, resulting in the mess that we are in now. If all operating IPG's are effected in the same way (i.e Passport, Navigator, and Sara) resulting in such Negative performance, than it stands to reason that the OCAP boxes, (a.k.a OCRAP) could really be the problem. It would be interesting for someone to contact SA for them to respond to this information.

I agree! It makes sense that the reason behind all these problems could be caused by defective software running on defective hardware. Then, when you throw in the "Axiom DVR Middleware", you really could have defective software(Navigator) on top of defective software(DVR Middleware), all running on defective hardware(the HDC box).

It goes back to my belief that the FCC should not have implemented that deadline of July 1, 2007 for the new OCAP boxes to be deployed because very very few box manufactures or cable companies had tested their systems for the upgrades.

Absolutely! The cable companies were basically forced to get this new product out on the market in no time. It really shows that Navigator and the OCAP boxes were not tested thoroughly before being released.

A side note, has anyone seen Passport running on an OCAP box? The software is out there, but without seeing it in action, there's no way to compare it.-nickdawg

It's also Time Warner's fault. It's slightly more Time Warner's fault since the FCC DID NOT force TW to use Navigator. Time Warner could have easily paid for the software upgrades instead. Maybe there would be less problems, maybe not. IMO, there would still be problems, even with Passport because the HDC boxes seem to be defective.But there would be little or no problems with the guide and DVR, since the current software is very reliable in those areas.

But since Navigator was being deployed to most TWC markets with OCAP boxes, it is now getting easy to see why it was blamed. Whether or not it still will be over time is going to depend on the successful rollout of Navigator to non-C boxes/DVR's. Maybe Wisconsin cable's head-end, where Nextoo and I are from, has more skilled programmers who understand the nature and functionality of OCAP hardware and how to implement the software on it.

Even more importantly, some cable systems as a whole may not be ready to run OCAP technologies.

Jack

Is anyone here on a former Adelphia system? I'd be interested in seeing how an OCAP box performs on a former Adelphia system. Most of those systems are older and not as advanced as legacy Time Warner systems.

PS. Here is the REAL $64,000 Question: What are the cable companies DOING with the returned OCAP boxes? Are they really going back to SA and the other companies for evaluation, or are the clueless installers just wrapping up the boxes and than they are being passed off as new to unsuspecting customers? Years ago, when I talked to TWC, they said new boxes have an ID red tag code on the wrappers that distinguishes them from the used models. (Who the hell knows how often this practice is followed? However, that's what a CSR told me.)

I was thinking about that. When I took back my HDC box, they replaced it witha HD box. The CSR put the HDC in a cardbord box under the counter(where all returned equipment goes)

Re-wrapping boxes is nothing new. I once got an 8000 repacked in a box that was duct taped shut. And it was defective. I get the feeling they think the customers can be fooled, since the new boxes come packed in a crate. The first DVR I got from Time Warner back in 2004 came packed in the crate with original packaging.

My guess is they test them, format the hard drive, clean em up and put them back out on the shelves for the "next victim".

“Somewhat over…”
I’m curious; do you round off your cable monthly amount the same broad way you do locations?:p :D

No. I've already posted several time that I'm in NYC. I 'rounded' my bill report because I didn't memorize my cable bill. As it happens my last bill was $83 and change. Happy now?

The reason I ask, that is very low for a New York TW bill. Do you have Road Runner or are you using Verizon DSL? Most folks I know pay $200 give or take $25.

I have Verizon DSL. But this thread is about TWC cable service, not internet service, right? So why are people including their internet costs when bitching endlessly, and quite possibly mistakenly, about Navigator?

I am not sure if this issue is related to Navigator or to the eSata drive that I recently installed. I have suddenly begun having a really odd issue.

The particulars: SA 8300HD, Vox Ion 250 GB eSata drive, Time Warner with Navigator (Brooklyn, NY). Everything worked fine at first...drive recognized, formatted, recordings and playback ok. But now, after a few days, everytime I turn off the cable box, when I turn it back on there is no signal at all. The box is on but no video or sound, no functions will work. A reboot brings everything back, and everything is fine until I again turn off the box. When it turns back on, same thing...no signal until I reboot. So essentially I am rebooting every time I turn on the box/tv.

But here's the even weirder thing. Occasionally, I turn off the box and I am still getting the signal! I.e., the 8300HD is OFF and yet I am still getting the full sound and image of the channel that I was tuned to. Of course, none of the controls work, but the signal is coming through. How is this even possible?

I am planning to swap out the box later in the week for a replacement, but just wondering if anyone has thoughts on this first. Obviously one thing is to disconnect the external drive and see if it all goes back to normal, but a) I really, really want/need that extra drive space; and b) I'm really curious as to what could possibly be going on here.

Thanks....

Befuddled in Brooklyn

No. I've already posted several time that I'm in NYC. I 'rounded' my bill report because I didn't memorize my cable bill. As it happens my last bill was $83 and change. Happy now?
I have Verizon DSL. But this thread is about TWC cable service, not internet service, right? So why are people including their internet costs when bitching endlessly, and quite possibly mistakenly, about Navigator?I know, I know, :rolleyes: you’ve said it in many of your posts that you’re in NY. I got that.:rolleyes: I was only asking because I was curious as to why your bill was so cheap.

Thank you, now you answered my question. You don’t use TW for Internet service. Now we can get back on topic, OK, Krab? :rolleyes:

Just to remind you, this thread has been around for quiet some time and it’s only recently that a different opinion of Navigator has emerged :rolleyes:—and only by a few folks.

Maybe that's 'cos until recently only a few folks monopolized the discussion. If those few are mistaken in their premises, that can badly unbalance a thread.

Just to remind you, this thread has been around for quiet some time and it’s only recently that a different opinion of Navigator has emerged :rolleyes:—and only by a few folks.

Definately. A certain person, I'm not naming anyone in particular, has been giving Navigator undeserved praise. Yes, the problem is not jus twith Navigator, the HDC boxes seem to be involved too, but Navigator is still horrible. Worse colors and less features than previous software-i don't see anything that deserves praise. Methinks someone on this forum is in bed with navigator.

I agree! It makes sense that the reason behind all these problems could be caused by defective software running on defective hardware. Then, when you throw in the "Axiom DVR Middleware", you really could have defective software(Navigator) on top of defective software(DVR Middleware), all running on defective hardware(the HDC box).

And when you hook it up to a problem-prone section of the network, which I think is true in my case, you create a very fragile house of cards.

Like today as I was watching Gremlins, a few of them must have got loose in my area and within five minutes the picture degraded from fine to digital tiling to completely blank. I lost all channels except one (600, tbshd, I don't know what frequency) and eventually that one disappeared, too.

After several attempts to reboot yielded only E-13, I called Support. After waiting "between 2 hours 9 minutes and 3 hours 15 minutes" for a callback, I got a nice girl who BS'd with me while we tried several more reboots with no luck. She did, however, schedule another cable guy for Friday with specific instructions to bring me a brand new box (as opposed to refurbished).

Hours later after dinner, I tried the box again and this time it flew through the reboot with blazing speed (that means like 10 minutes for this POS) and I had all channels working again. My belief is that the problem was out in the network, although they were not showing any outages in my area, at least that they would admit to.

I am assuming the new box will be another HDC box because they already told me the warehouse won't even give them HD boxes any more.

My question to all of you is this: on the outside chance that my cable is working pretty good all week, should I risk trying another (new) HDC box or stick with the one I have? I would hate to have it get worse. Is there any reason to believe that SA has made improvements and maybe a brand new box with a later manufacture date would be better than the one I have now?

I am inclined to try the new box. Just wondering what everybody else thinks.

Thanks,
-Marty

Absolutely! The cable companies were basically forced to get this new product out on the market in no time. It really shows that Navigator and the OCAP boxes were not tested thoroughly before being released.

The cable companies have had ten years to prepare for this. They have no-one to blame but themselves.

And when you hook it up to a problem-prone section of the network, which I think is true in my case, you create a very fragile house of cards.

Like today as I was watching Gremlins, a few of them must have got loose in my area and within five minutes the picture degraded from fine to digital tiling to completely blank. I lost all channels except one (600, tbshd, I don't know what frequency) and eventually that one disappeared, too.

After several attempts to reboot yielded only E-13, I called Support. After waiting "between 2 hours 9 minutes and 3 hours 15 minutes" for a callback, I got a nice girl who BS'd with me while we tried several more reboots with no luck. She did, however, schedule another cable guy for Friday with specific instructions to bring me a brand new box (as opposed to refurbished).

Hours later after dinner, I tried the box again and this time it flew through the reboot with blazing speed (that means like 10 minutes for this POS) and I had all channels working again. My belief is that the problem was out in the network, although they were not showing any outages in my area, at least that they would admit to.

I am assuming the new box will be another HDC box because they already told me the warehouse won't even give them HD boxes any more.

First off, where in NE Ohio are you? Are you on the Akron system(WKYC-on 2, WEWS-on 11) or a former Adelphia system(WKYC-on 3, WEWS on 5)? f you are on the Akron system, there is a good chance of getting an 8300HD. I took my HDC back two weeks ago in a fightin mood. I wasn't going to leave with another OCRAP box. I didn't have to say anything, teh CSR acknowledged the problems with OCAP and gave me a Passport 8300HD. I haven't had any trouble with the 8300HD in a week and a half.

When I called, I got the same thing about "signal problems". I didn't believe it because my other TVs work fine(including a QAM tuner on the SAME TV as the box and an old Pioneer box in the bedroom). The only problem was the OCAP box. I originally scheduled an apointment, but canceled later because it conflicted with something else. Taking the box back to the office actually was better because the tech would most likely not replace the box or replace it with another OCAP box. After 2 an 1/2 months of OCAP hell, I wasn't doing that again.

About the box saying E-13, that happened a day before I returned my box. It rebooted itself and did not work all night. The CSR said that the system was down that day, causing that problem.

A few questions:

1. Do you get audio drop outs on recorded shows, especially HD?

2. Do recordings not work and in the recording log it says "Channel Not Available"?

3. Does the box get hung up on a channel and require a reboot to fix it?

My question to all of you is this: on the outside chance that my cable is working pretty good all week, should I risk trying another (new) HDC box or stick with the one I have? I would hate to have it get worse. Is there any reason to believe that SA has made improvements and maybe a brand new box with a later manufacture date would be better than the one I have now?

I am inclined to try the new box. Just wondering what everybody else thinks.

Thanks,
-Marty

There really shouldn't be a difference between an earlier manufactured box and a later one. They all have the same hardware and software. I have read that after about four or five boxes people have more luck, so maybe. Some areas are also using an newer version of Navigator, which has had positive effects.

And when you hook it up to a problem-prone section of the network, which I think is true in my case, you create a very fragile house of cards.

Like today as I was watching Gremlins, a few of them must have got loose in my area and within five minutes the picture degraded from fine to digital tiling to completely blank. I lost all channels except one (600, tbshd, I don't know what frequency) and eventually that one disappeared, too.

After several attempts to reboot yielded only E-13, I called Support. After waiting "between 2 hours 9 minutes and 3 hours 15 minutes" for a callback, I got a nice girl who BS'd with me while we tried several more reboots with no luck. She did, however, schedule another cable guy for Friday with specific instructions to bring me a brand new box (as opposed to refurbished).

Hours later after dinner, I tried the box again and this time it flew through the reboot with blazing speed (that means like 10 minutes for this POS) and I had all channels working again. My belief is that the problem was out in the network, although they were not showing any outages in my area, at least that they would admit to.

I am assuming the new box will be another HDC box because they already told me the warehouse won't even give them HD boxes any more.

My question to all of you is this: on the outside chance that my cable is working pretty good all week, should I risk trying another (new) HDC box or stick with the one I have? I would hate to have it get worse. Is there any reason to believe that SA has made improvements and maybe a brand new box with a later manufacture date would be better than the one I have now?

I am inclined to try the new box. Just wondering what everybody else thinks.

Thanks,
-Marty


Marty,

And for everyone else as well. I was wondering how many boxes you have gone through since the OCAP mandate on new boxes? It sounds like on the OCAP models, that most people have had to go through 4-5 to get one that works.

Jack

PS. On these OCAP boxes, I would honestly KEEP ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN GET WORKING AFTER A REBOOT. The same is true especially if you have a non-OCAP box. You don't know what type of shape the next box will be in even if they say it is new. I would do the reboot, maybe you will have to do 3-4 reboots. But what is to stop the next OCAP box from having problems again? But OMG I can't begin to imagine the frustration that many of you are going through. What a pile of BS! It sounds more like these cable card boxes may be the real culprit.

The "good news" (if you can call it that) is that with all these issues, I am certain that they are releasing updates to the system several times a week. Do you guys think that the blame should really be shifted to the FCC for mandating this? What would have happened if they had not done this mandate?

Jack

Well Jack, I had an 8300HDC briefly and opted to keep my trusty old 8300HD instead. We are slated for the Navigator rollout this quarter. So, I will keep my 8300HD and once it downloads Navigator I will report. If I get a functional, working version and others do not, I will then buy into the fact that it is the OCAP standard that is the root of all the problems. The thing is that deployment could be in two weeks or 3 months from now. My contact at TWC would only give "the 1st quarter of 08'" as a time frame.

Jack,

I am only on my first OCAP box. Prior to that I had a 8300HD with Passport for about 7 months and prior to that an HD non-DVR box for which I don't remember the make, I wanna say some type of Pioneer.

I do not blame the FCC. I pay Time Warner for this service. It is their responsibility to make it work. Apparently it is working for some people. I have also had so many other problems prior to the HDC box that this is just one more straw on the camel's back. When I moved here the neighbors told me not to waste my time with TWC because they would never make anything right. I ignored them because I had had good service from TWC Columbus, plus I figured the technology is always improving. That is a laugh.

Nick,

I think I have signal problems because my cable was out for about 36 hours, including analog TVs. Then, before the cable guy ever came out, everything started working again for two or three days, then just the digital TV fizzled out again. After a couple days and two phone support people telling me I needed a new box (to replace my 8300HD) I caved in and swapped it out and that is when I got stuck with the 8300HDC.

When I got the HDC home, after several hours of trying to get past L-13/E-13, after it finally loaded all the way, there still were no channels even though the program guide was populated. I still had three more days to wait for the cable guy appointment. At some point during that wait, the channels started working. To me all this implies that the problem was with the incoming signal.

It continued working OK (except for the DVR going MIA requiring reboot) until one hour after the cable guy had visited me and proclaimed the signal to be better than average and stated that they could no longer get non-OCAP boxes from the warehouse, so there would be no use in me trying to swap back to the 8300HD.

I believe our service comes from Akron because I have heard them refer to the PM guys as having to come from Akron. When I call support the call goes to Akron or Cleveland. I have WKYC-on 3 and WEWS on 5 but as far as I know, TWC was the first cable TV company to come to this area and the only one that has ever been here.

I have not had the audio dropouts on recording but I have had it record blank video and audio together. My feeling is that is a time when I would have had a blank screen even if I was there to watch it.

When the DVR goes MIA it has always been accompanied by one or more log messages about "unresolved scheduling conflicts" and "channel not available." So far a reboot has fixed this, though that involves the risk of getting stuck on L-13/E-13. Generally it seems that if the TV channels are watchable, it can make it through L-13 but if the channels have disappeared it may or may not. Again, to me this implies it is having problems receiving data from the host.

I have not had it get hung up on a channel.

Thanks,
-Marty

Let me muddy the waters a little about signal strength. I have my line split so many ways that I had to get an amplified splitter. Because TW got pissy with me about injecting noise on the network (one of my nodes was not properly terminated), I had the amplifier turned up only to the level that allowed me to receive on-demand programming. The setting was fairly low in the amplifier's range.

When I received my HDC box, I had many of the problems reported by others; most annoyingly, "channel not available" recording errors and frequent A/V dropouts. The "not available" problems were pretty much eliminated by weekly reboots and I had attributed most of the A/V dropouts to my external drive.

One day, however, the dropouts were so bad on my recordings that I had to throw out several without watching them. Remembering the amplifier, I decided to nudge it up a little. I haven't had enough time to determine conclusively, but it now seems that A/V dropouts are very rare for both live viewing and recorded material and I haven't experienced any of the other random problems that Navigator seems to present (e.g. lost video, missing channel guide updates, etc). After I get a better feel for the results, I plan to nudge it again. If things continue to improve, I'll crank it back down to its original setting and see if the problems return. I'll report back when I think I have something (or not).

... It goes back to my belief that the FCC should not have implemented that deadline of July 1, 2007 for the new OCAP boxes to be deployed because very very few box manufactures or cable companies had tested their systems for the upgrades. [ed. actual FCC mandate was only for separable security IIRC, C-F] ... Absolutely! The cable companies were basically forced to get this new product out on the market in no time. It really shows that Navigator and the OCAP boxes were not tested thoroughly before being released.The cable companies have had ten years to prepare for this. They have no-one to blame but themselves.I concur with UnnDunn. I believe the cable companies would "not be ready" and "forced to deploy untested solutions" however late the separable security ban enforcement actually occurred. Unfortunately, the marketing sections may encourage those types of sentiment, as it allows them to shift at least part of the "blame" to the FCC as a convenient scapegoat.

v/r,
C-F

I was wondering how many boxes you have gone through since the OCAP mandate on new boxes?
Do you guys think that the blame should really be shifted to the FCC for mandating this?Jack, I'm sure you know this, but perhaps not, but there never was any such thing as an OCAP mandate. The FCC only mandated that cable supplied boxes no longer integrate the security function in the box. From a practical standpoint, the only thing the cable companies could do was to use CableCARDs in their boxes. The only things OCAP has to do with it is: 1) That the new boxes with CableCARDs is that these boxes happen to be OCAP certified; and 2) TW has chosen to deploy Navigator on these boxes in Passport systems rather than to pay Aptiv for the needed software updates that would be needed with the CableCARD equipped boxes.

Continuing to refer to the "OCAP mandate" only contributes to the misunderstandings of what is really going on.

I am not sure if this issue is related to Navigator or to the eSata drive that I recently installed. I have suddenly begun having a really odd issue.

The particulars: SA 8300HD, Vox Ion 250 GB eSata drive, Time Warner with Navigator (Brooklyn, NY). Everything worked fine at first...drive recognized, formatted, recordings and playback ok. But now, after a few days, everytime I turn off the cable box, when I turn it back on there is no signal at all. The box is on but no video or sound, no functions will work. A reboot brings everything back, and everything is fine until I again turn off the box. When it turns back on, same thing...no signal until I reboot. So essentially I am rebooting every time I turn on the box/tv.

But here's the even weirder thing. Occasionally, I turn off the box and I am still getting the signal! I.e., the 8300HD is OFF and yet I am still getting the full sound and image of the channel that I was tuned to. Of course, none of the controls work, but the signal is coming through. How is this even possible?

I am planning to swap out the box later in the week for a replacement, but just wondering if anyone has thoughts on this first. Obviously one thing is to disconnect the external drive and see if it all goes back to normal, but a) I really, really want/need that extra drive space; and b) I'm really curious as to what could possibly be going on here.

Thanks....

Befuddled in Brooklyn

I also have Vox 250 GB eSata drive (do not know exact drive inside), maybe it is the same if you also bought it at buy.com during a one-day sale. It did cause some minor problem for my HDC box with Navigator (slower manus, especially recorded list, and occasional pixelation that kind of stopped as weather got colder, so I chalked it up to drive overheating). Overall, I can live with that in order to get the extra 30 hrs.

If I were you, I would not be swaping HD box for an HDC box; you may never be able to get an HD box again, and apparently they have been proven to be much more reliable than HDC boxes. If you can get another HD box, go ahead, maybe you have a flaky eSATA port in the current box. Note that if you swap the box, you can kiss all your recordings goodbye, including the ones that happen to be on the eSATA drive.

Definately. A certain person, I'm not naming anyone in particular, has been giving Navigator undeserved praise. Yes, the problem is not jus twith Navigator, the HDC boxes seem to be involved too, but Navigator is still horrible. Worse colors and less features than previous software-i don't see anything that deserves praise. Methinks someone on this forum is in bed with navigator.

Can you just lay off accusing people who disagree with you? Most of your posts seem to be nothing but mud slinging and substituting subjective opinions for facts. "Worse colors", for example, not to mention the phantom "horrendous font" that nobody else have seen, and so on. As for "less features", did you really compare the features? It is much more likely to be different features, not less of them, and some people may like the other features more. The person you keep attacking has actually contributed useful information, and on more than one occasion. He actually even listed some of the Navigator's features not present in Passport.

My guess is they test them, format the hard drive, clean em up and put them back out on the shelves for the "next victim".

Serveral years ago I took my 8000 in to get a replacement and was given a box that was full of Jerry Springer shows - I feel certain this box was not formated or tested.

The cable companies have had ten years to prepare for this. They have no-one to blame but themselves.

The problem is that government agencies tend to set a firm deline, then when the deadline approaches, someone complains and they extend the deadline a couple of years. This seems to go on forever.

The cable companies assumed that this would happen again and were caught unprepared.

I'm getting tired of personal attacks on some people.We are all trying to find out abot Navigator not attack each other.Let's try to get along without makeing it personal.Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all on the board. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I'm getting tired of personal attacks on some people.We are all trying to find out abot Navigator not attack each other.Let's try to get along without makeing it personal.Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all on the board. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I agree. It has been getting very heated here(I'm responsible for some of it). Navigator is one of those "love it or hate it" things. How anyone can love it is beyond me, but we're all entitled to our own opinions. As someone mentioned in an earlier comment, I'll have the list of features Passport has and Navigator doesn't sometime after Christmas.

:D:DMerry Christmas to all and to all a good night!!:D:D

The problem is that government agencies tend to set a firm deline, then when the deadline approaches, someone complains and they extend the deadline a couple of years. This seems to go on forever.

The cable companies assumed that this would happen again and were caught unprepared.I am sorry, and not really directed at you rdgcss, but: No.

The cable companies made a conscious decision and did not prepare a deployable working solution in time. They took a risk here and lost their gamble.

They did not get "caught unprepared", as that connotation implies the existence of an arrangement [continuing extentions] and an agreement (at least tacitly) to continue as such in the future. The events leading up to the enforcement date provided ample warning of a different environment (and FCC). The previous lack of enforcement and never-ending extensions are a related, but separate concern.

While I am sure this line of thinking (shifting responsibility) provides some social lubrication among the leadership [entities], everyone else (normal people) actually believing these [face saving words] generates the enforcement/extension problem you identified and will unduly influence the growth of responsibility on both sides of the regulatory fence. Without rewarding both caution in enactment and enforcement once enacted, we will continue to see dates set to measures without enforcement, or rules and measures set without thought of or the appropriate gravity of their effect upon everyone's stake.


v/r,
C-F

2) communicate my disastisfaction by 'voting with my pocket book' and switching services

Be happy that this IS an option for you... it's not universally available. My ONLY option after dropping TWC is watching DVDs... hell, OTA doesn't work here!

I dunno...maybe because I've mentioned that I live in Manhattan, in almost every post I've made on the topic so far?

And FWIW, I'm paying somewhat over $80/month, with the recent rate hike. That includes HBO and Showtime, otherwise it'd be quite a bit less.

I'd guess a very large perentage of folks w/HD TVs and the such also want the best IP connectivity, so that "$150+" usually involves hi-speed IP (RoadRunner).

IMO, Time Warner needs to abandon Navigator and just pay the fees for updated SARA and Passport.

Undoubtedly it way to late for that!

The sad thing is that those in areas that are REALLY getting shafted by TWC MAY end up sticking with them once an actual alternative appears (in my case, that means Verizon FIOS being ready to rock). AND I'm sure they are counting on that... while I will be GONE from TWC, they probably figure it isn't enough to take any notice because I'll probably be part of only a few.

I only wish we had something like what goes on during conversions to co-op. When my building converted, the first thing we did was secure legally binding "no-buy" pledges from enough units to prevent the owner from converting. THEN we could have an actual negotiation. We all very much WANTED the conversion, but NOT 100% on "his" terms."

I'd guess a very large perentage of folks w/HD TVs and the such also want the best IP connectivity, so that "$150+" usually involves hi-speed IP (RoadRunner).


Quite possibly, but as I've pointed out, it then makes no sense to rail about paying $150 when bitching specifically about the cable TV service.

Be happy that this IS an option for you... it's not universally available. My ONLY option after dropping TWC is watching DVDs... hell, OTA doesn't work here!

Well, by "option" I meant going to some sort of satellite service.

I just got a bunch of DVDs for xmas so I can benefit from my new HT setup with some good PQ DVDs.

I did watch the Chargers game on HD last night and I had good reception and the PQ was quite nice.

But this morning when 'flicking' channels, the STB started to act flaky again - intermittent picture and audio as if the STB could not 'sync up'. So I rebooted the SA8300HDC...again... things are back to 'normal'...for now.... :sigh:

Whether this is hardware or software or firmware...really don't care.... I'm paying TWC for a "service" that is reliable and I ain't getting it.

Erik

I also have Vox 250 GB eSata drive (do not know exact drive inside), maybe it is the same if you also bought it at buy.com during a one-day sale. It did cause some minor problem for my HDC box with Navigator (slower manus, especially recorded list, and occasional pixelation that kind of stopped as weather got colder, so I chalked it up to drive overheating). Overall, I can live with that in order to get the extra 30 hrs.

If I were you, I would not be swaping HD box for an HDC box; you may never be able to get an HD box again, and apparently they have been proven to be much more reliable than HDC boxes. If you can get another HD box, go ahead, maybe you have a flaky eSATA port in the current box. Note that if you swap the box, you can kiss all your recordings goodbye, including the ones that happen to be on the eSATA drive.

Yep probably the same drive as I also got it on the Buy.com one day sale ($45 after rebates!) But here's the latest update: It got to the point where the box wasn't responding at all, even after multiple reboots. So I've now disconnedted the Vox drive, and lo and behold things seem back to normal so far. So it seems the drive was the culprit and nothing really wrong with the DVR, so I'm not exchanging it just yet. However, I am still not sure what was happening or why it worked just fine for several days and then the problems started. I would really like to use an external drive but now I'm leary of trying a different one until I can figure out just why this one was so problematic, as it was recognized, formatted, and recorded just fine---just the DVR would not behave normally with it attached, kept locking up, not responding, etc.

Yep probably the same drive as I also got it on the Buy.com one day sale ($45 after rebates!) But here's the latest update: It got to the point where the box wasn't responding at all, even after multiple reboots. So I've now disconnedted the Vox drive, and lo and behold things seem back to normal so far. So it seems the drive was the culprit and nothing really wrong with the DVR, so I'm not exchanging it just yet. However, I am still not sure what was happening or why it worked just fine for several days and then the problems started. I would really like to use an external drive but now I'm leary of trying a different one until I can figure out just why this one was so problematic, as it was recognized, formatted, and recorded just fine---just the DVR would not behave normally with it attached, kept locking up, not responding, etc.

Maybe the drive is overheating - make sure it is in an open space. Maybe those drives are not really meant for serious 24 hr use as this forces on them; you may want to try to, every time just before you turn your DVR off, switch to two music channels, so there will be basically no buffering. That may give your drive a bit of a break - it will still be spinning, but not working nearly as hard.

Also, if you had a power failure, that could have wreaked havoc with all kinds of things. I plugged both the DVR and the drive in a UPS.

Whether this is hardware or software or firmware...really don't care.... I'm paying TWC for a "service" that is reliable and I ain't getting it.

Erik

EXACTLY. Still, I suspect there's a bit of geek in most of us that want to know exactly what, how, and where issues arise.

All due respect to the fine computer/electronic techs on here who have talked about hard drive replacements for their boxes and DVR's. You will be more tech savvy than I will ever be! Thanks for the knowledge.

But could it be with installing any new hardware on these boxes may be causing some of the problems in the first place? The software/hardware on the boxes' internal mechanism will most likely not be touched by 96% of the general population. (I don't think the cable operators regardless of company are too thrilled with people changing the mechanisms of their boxes.) Could it be that by installing new hardware on a system that is still being tested and has stability problems, without users trying to modify it, that the users could be creating more problems for their boxes? What would be wrong unless you really, really, really, know what you are doing to just leave the hardware alone?

I am assuming that people are trying to get more storage out of the boxes by replacing the existing hard drives and adding more storage. But IMHO, I don't think these boxes/DVR's are designed to be used like that.

Jack

I am on sara 1.89.17.1. I was reading on the Navigator enhancement web site about recording priority.It stated you go to the series manager then the show list.You would highlight a series and hit select.You would then scroll in the series manager and select select priority.Move the series up and down the list set it to a higher or lower recording priority.This sounds like Tivo or Passports method.Am i to undrstand Navigator does not have this feature ever as they say it does?just curious if anyone could shed so light on this.

All due respect to the fine computer/electronic techs on here who have talked about hard drive replacements for their boxes and DVR's. You will be more tech savvy than I will ever be! Thanks for the knowledge.

But could it be with installing any new hardware on these boxes may be causing some of the problems in the first place? The software/hardware on the boxes' internal mechanism will most likely not be touched by 96% of the general population. (I don't think the cable operators regardless of company are too thrilled with people changing the mechanisms of their boxes.) Could it be that by installing new hardware on a system that is still being tested and has stability problems, without users trying to modify it, that the users could be creating more problems for their boxes? What would be wrong unless you really, really, really, know what you are doing to just leave the hardware alone?

I am assuming that people are trying to get more storage out of the boxes by replacing the existing hard drives and adding more storage. But IMHO, I don't think these boxes/DVR's are designed to be used like that.

Jack

These DVRs are designed to be used like that. We were not talking about opening the box at all - just plugging in an external drive into eSATA port of the box; that port is put in there for that exact purpose. See the manufacturers web site (this is for HD box, but HDC box is similar):
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/new_explorer8300HD.htm
(scroll down to External SATA Connector under Features).
Now, the cable company supplying the box has the option of officially supporting this or not, and, if I am not mistaken, TWC is not officially supporting it on Navigator boxes; however, the same procedure applies, and has been succesfully tried by several people; mind you, some people have tried and failed, and some people have tried certain drives and failed, but had success with different drives; xnappo maintains a a database of that - find one of his posts and look for signature. I have it working mostly OK, although there are some minor annoyances here and there that appear to be directly related to adding the drive (i.e. did not happen before I added the drive). jczinn used likely the same drive and it aparently did not work for him (although I have HDC box and he has HD one, so it is not exactly apples to apples comparison). In principle you are right that adding more hardware means more things can break or cause someting else to break; in this case, however, you can always just unplug the external drive from DVR (you would only loose the stuff recorded on the external drive).

I am sorry, and not really directed at you rdgcss, but: No.

The cable companies made a conscious decision and did not prepare a deployable working solution in time. They took a risk here and lost their gamble.

They did not get "caught unprepared", as that connotation implies the existence of an arrangement [continuing extentions] and an agreement (at least tacitly) to continue as such in the future. The events leading up to the enforcement date provided ample warning of a different environment (and FCC). The previous lack of enforcement and never-ending extensions are a related, but separate concern.

While I am sure this line of thinking (shifting responsibility) provides some social lubrication among the leadership [entities], everyone else (normal people) actually believing these [face saving words] generates the enforcement/extension problem you identified and will unduly influence the growth of responsibility on both sides of the regulatory fence. Without rewarding both caution in enactment and enforcement once enacted, we will continue to see dates set to measures without enforcement, or rules and measures set without thought of or the appropriate gravity of their effect upon everyone's stake.


v/r,
C-F

I'm not trying to shift the blame to the FCC. The cable companies are certainly at fault. They "ASSUMEd" and I'm sure you know the old saying about what ASSUME means

I am on sara 1.89.17.1. I was reading on the Navigator enhancement web site about recording priority.It stated you go to the series manager then the show list.You would highlight a series and hit select.You would then scroll in the series manager and select select priority.Move the series up and down the list set it to a higher or lower recording priority.This sounds like Tivo or Passports method.Am i to undrstand Navigator does not have this feature ever as they say it does?just curious if anyone could shed so light on this.

This feature is not in my version of Navigator - 2.4.5_4 - which appears to be the most common version (although some people, I think, still may have 2.4.4_2). I kind of remember reading somewhere about a version that has what you are mentioning as well as restricting series recording by time slot, both of which would be welcome improvements; I also vaguely remember something about Lincoln being one of the few (maybe the only) site having this version, or maybe scheduled for deploying this version soon; then again, maybe the whole thing is still TWC vaporware. Can you please post the link to the web site you are talking about, I'd like a look at the goodies that might be coming my way someday?

By the way, anybody actually having this feature and/or Navigator newer than 2.4.5_4?

I did watch the Chargers game on HD last night and I had good reception and the PQ was quite nice.

But this morning when 'flicking' channels, the STB started to act flaky again - intermittent picture and audio as if the STB could not 'sync up'. So I rebooted the SA8300HDC...again... things are back to 'normal'...for now.... :sigh:

Whether this is hardware or software or firmware...really don't care.... I'm paying TWC for a "service" that is reliable and I ain't getting it.

Erik
I'm also just started seeing frequent video "freezes" on TWC-San Diego:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/6245.html#POST31101
But only in the SA8300HD with external eSATA HDD (running PASSPORT)
and not in the older SA8300HD without eSATA....maybe it's a headend problem...

These DVRs are designed to be used like that. We were not talking about opening the box at all - just plugging in an external drive into eSATA port of the box; that port is put in there for that exact purpose. See the manufacturers web site (this is for HD box, but HDC box is similar):
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/new_explorer8300HD.htm
(scroll down to External SATA Connector under Features).
Now, the cable company supplying the box has the option of officially supporting this or not, and, if I am not mistaken, TWC is not officially supporting it on Navigator boxes; however, the same procedure applies, and has been succesfully tried by several people; mind you, some people have tried and failed, and some people have tried certain drives and failed, but had success with different drives; xnappo maintains a a database of that - find one of his posts and look for signature. I have it working mostly OK, although there are some minor annoyances here and there that appear to be directly related to adding the drive (i.e. did not happen before I added the drive). jczinn used likely the same drive and it aparently did not work for him (although I have HDC box and he has HD one, so it is not exactly apples to apples comparison). In principle you are right that adding more hardware means more things can break or cause someting else to break; in this case, however, you can always just unplug the external drive from DVR (you would only loose the stuff recorded on the external drive).

Thank you for the clarification! This will help a lot of people!

Jack

Yep probably the same drive as I also got it on the Buy.com one day sale ($45 after rebates!) But here's the latest update: It got to the point where the box wasn't responding at all, even after multiple reboots. So I've now disconnedted the Vox drive, and lo and behold things seem back to normal so far. So it seems the drive was the culprit and nothing really wrong with the DVR, so I'm not exchanging it just yet. However, I am still not sure what was happening or why it worked just fine for several days and then the problems started. I would really like to use an external drive but now I'm leary of trying a different one until I can figure out just why this one was so problematic, as it was recognized, formatted, and recorded just fine---just the DVR would not behave normally with it attached, kept locking up, not responding, etc.

This is a problem that just popped up for me. After 5 months of success with an external HD it has stopped working. I thought it was the 8300 HDC so I returned it to TWC and got myself another one. Same problem though, when I shut the cable box off and come back say a half to an hour later to turn it on I get no response from the box. Have to completely reboot just to get the 8300 to turn on. I've even gone so far as to buy another external and unfortunately get the same results. It's almost as if TWC somehow disabled the use of an external HD. I'm really unhappy now, and if I had any other option over TWC I would take it.

This feature is not in my version of Navigator - 2.4.5_4 - which appears to be the most common version (although some people, I think, still may have 2.4.4_2). I kind of remember reading somewhere about a version that has what you are mentioning as well as restricting series recording by time slot, both of which would be welcome improvements; I also vaguely remember something about Lincoln being one of the few (maybe the only) site having this version, or maybe scheduled for deploying this version soon; then again, maybe the whole thing is still TWC vaporware. Can you please post the link to the web site you are talking about, I'd like a look at the goodies that might be coming my way someday?

By the way, anybody actually having this feature and/or Navigator newer than 2.4.5_4?
It was the Time Warner Nebraska site.It had the priority recording feature,15 minute jump.and time slot recording feature.

EXACTLY. Still, I suspect there's a bit of geek in most of us that want to know exactly what, how, and where issues arise.

The geek part is quite true. I'd like to know whether to cry foul for TWC forcing Navigator on us instead of Passport/SARA (or, dare I dream, having a deal with ReplayTV or Tivo), or consider that part insignificant from reliability standpoint and cry foul for using poorly made / poorly tested hardware.

There's another reason is I'd like to know (actually, I'd like it to be public knowledge):
I hoped that this thread will be mostly about people using their experience with Navigator to exchange tips and tricks and workarounds, especially considering that the detailed information on using Navigator is not made widely available by TWC (now that's an understatement - there is not even a simple manual, user is left to his/her own to browse each menu to learn what do they do; only some of the simplest stuff is mentioned on the web site and those Answer on Demand thingies). I have learnt here that you can jump in 15 minute increments using FF button, among other things. I am sorry that it turns out that, while there are some useful posts like that, they seem to be a minority, and there are a whole bunch of posts from people not using (maybe even never used) Navigator stating that it is an unstable POS that they do not want. That's not particularly helpful, IMHO, (even if it were true, as TWC is very unlikely to heed their advice and go back to Passport/SARA on new boxes) and I hope that it will subside if it becomes clear that the stability issues are (at least to a large extent) due to bad hardware (as it seems to be the case, based on people having different issues with different boxes with same version of Navigator, plus people having same issues as we do with those HDC boxes either on Comcast or on TWC with SARA).

It was the Time Warner Nebraska site.It had the priority recording feature,15 minute jump.and time slot recording feature.

15 minute jump is in my version, the other two are not.

I've had the 8300HDC for about a month or so. I had an 8300HD with Passport before that. It was swapped after months of crap reception on most of my HD channels as a last ditch effort at resolution.

A few things I like about it. I like being able to turn the side bars on 4:3 content black and it gives you 3 options to choose from. The guide looks a lot nicer and is easier to read.

Here's what I don't like. THe menu/guide is much slower than passport. I'm not a fan of the search functions but then again it could be I was just accustomed to Passport. I get frequent reboots. I get frequent freezes (about one a night) which are resolved by me changing channels. Every other day or so when I turn the box on it will display a channel fo 10 seconds and then say "Channel not available contact customer service blah blah". Rebooting the box solves this. Slightly erratic series recording - somethings it records them sometimes not.

I'm a very patient person - so I've dealt with these things with an even temper. But today could be the last straw. There must of been some recent software update because all of a sudden today I realized that resolutions are locked for HDMI. No passthrough of 480i/480p. No way to choose a resolution. Now this might sound tirvial to most of oyu - but this is a big deal to me as I prefer feeding the signals to my Reon equipped AVR for better deinterlacing/scaling. The scaling for these boxes is not very impressive and neither is the deinterlacing. I was surprised not see anyone else posting about this actually. Why the hell would they lock this? To be honest, passthrough was one of the major reasons I've stayed with cable and not wtiched to DTV. I might start looking into other provider options now.

This is a problem that just popped up for me. After 5 months of success with an external HD it has stopped working. I thought it was the 8300 HDC so I returned it to TWC and got myself another one. Same problem though, when I shut the cable box off and come back say a half to an hour later to turn it on I get no response from the box. Have to completely reboot just to get the 8300 to turn on. I've even gone so far as to buy another external and unfortunately get the same results. It's almost as if TWC somehow disabled the use of an external HD. I'm really unhappy now, and if I had any other option over TWC I would take it.

I hope that this is just a temporary glich in your head end. It would really suck if TW purposly disabled external drives. I don't see what they stand to gain from it, unless they are trying to debug some issues and want to eliminate one variable; I'd be quite mad if mine stopped working - if the box had a decent size drive in it it would be a different story, but with 160GB drive, taking the use of external port away, even though it is not officially supported, is definitely extremely annoying. Actually, not officially supporting external drives is somewhat cowardly on TWC part, IMHO. If they knew that things get flaky with external drives, they should have asked (pressured) SA to put larger drives in there (not to mention to make the boxes stable to start with).

I've had the 8300HDC for about a month or so. I had an 8300HD with Passport before that. It was swapped after months of crap reception on most of my HD channels as a last ditch effort at resolution.

A few things I like about it. I like being able to turn the side bars on 4:3 content black and it gives you 3 options to choose from. The guide looks a lot nicer and is easier to read.

Here's what I don't like. THe menu/guide is much slower than passport. I'm not a fan of the search functions but then again it could be I was just accustomed to Passport. I get frequent reboots. I get frequent freezes (about one a night) which are resolved by me changing channels. Every other day or so when I turn the box on it will display a channel fo 10 seconds and then say "Channel not available contact customer service blah blah". Rebooting the box solves this. Slightly erratic series recording - somethings it records them sometimes not.

I'm a very patient person - so I've dealt with these things with an even temper. But today could be the last straw. There must of been some recent software update because all of a sudden today I realized that resolutions are locked for HDMI. No passthrough of 480i/480p. No way to choose a resolution. Now this might sound tirvial to most of oyu - but this is a big deal to me as I prefer feeding the signals to my Reon equipped AVR for better deinterlacing/scaling. The scaling for these boxes is not very impressive and neither is the deinterlacing. I was surprised not see anyone else posting about this actually. Why the hell would they lock this? To be honest, passthrough was one of the major reasons I've stayed with cable and not wtiched to DTV. I might start looking into other provider options now.

I assume you are having 8300HDC with Navigator.

About pass through: if you are using HDMI, it does pass through, you do not have a choice. It just appears that the current resolution is locked in the menu (says something like "can't be changed when using HDMI"), but what it actually means is that you can not choose, box will pass through. Sometimes it will appear that you can choose which ones to enable (if you turn the DVR on before turning on the TV), but that does not matter anyway, it passes through whatever comes in every time (at least in my case). That's why people are not complaining about that.

About the box being flaky: welcome to the club, people are complaining about it galore - those boxes are known to have a huge percentage of defective ones. I suggest trading in the box for another, and if that one is flaky, another, and so on. Hardly anybody got the first box to be stable, and some people have tried as much as 5 without much luck. I got lucky with the second one. Your best bet is to get an HD (as opposed to HDC) box, those are generally much more stable. The problem is that they may not have any, or they may have only the rejects, and rejects are much more likely to be defective. Sorry about that.

I assume you are having 8300HDC with Navigator.

About pass through: if you are using HDMI, it does pass through, you do not have a choice. It just appears that the current resolution is locked in the menu (says something like "can't be changed when using HDMI"), but what it actually means is that you can not choose, box will pass through. Sometimes it will appear that you can choose which ones to enable (if you turn the DVR on before turning on the TV), but that does not matter anyway, it passes through whatever comes in every time (at least in my case). That's why people are not complaining about that.

About the box being flaky: welcome to the club, people are complaining about it galore - those boxes are known to have a huge percentage of defective ones. I suggest trading in the box for another, and if that one is flaky, another, and so on. Hardly anybody got the first box to be stable, and some people have tried as much as 5 without much luck. I got lucky with the second one. Your best bet is to get an HD (as opposed to HDC) box, those are generally much more stable. The problem is that they may not have any, or they may have only the rejects, and rejects are much more likely to be defective. Sorry about that.


sorry forgot to mention im in poughkeepsie ny using navigator with twc.

It passes through HD only. It upscales all 480i content to 720p on my box.
It used to pass 480i/p. But not anymore.

Actually, I tuned to an SD channel and a 720p channel at the local mall, and noticed that the HDMI must be bugged up because it was sending the screen scaled 1080i through the HDMI cable, with no artifacts of resolution switching when tuned to an SD channel or a 720p channel like ESPN, and interlacing artifacts that should not be present on ESPN because it is 720p. Looks like they are trying to debug the HDMI and screwed something up.

Actually, I tuned to an SD channel and a 720p channel at the local mall, and noticed that the HDMI must be bugged up because it was sending the screen scaled 1080i through the HDMI cable, with no artifacts of resolution switching when tuned to an SD channel or a 720p channel like ESPN, and interlacing artifacts that should not be present on ESPN because it is 720p. Looks like they are trying to debug the HDMI and screwed something up.

I just tried Discovery HD, ESPN HD and SciFi (SD) channel, and displayed TV info banner for each. It showed 1080i, 720p and 480i, so, as far as my TV can tell, it is passing the resolution through; it also looks as it normally does (i.e. passes the eyeball test). So, dildatonr, it is likely your box (yet another reason to swap it); you may want to experiment with the order in which you turn on your components - try turning on the DVR last, maybe then it will work.

As for the mall thing, note that if using component cable, you actually specify resolution(s) that your box is allowed to output; it is likely that they hooked it up with component cable and enabled 1080i only. TWC supplies only component cable with their DVRs, so I'd be surprised if in the mall they have something better. Is that Cary Town Center?

sorry forgot to mention im in poughkeepsie ny using navigator with twc.

It passes through HD only. It upscales all 480i content to 720p on my box.
It used to pass 480i/p. But not anymore.

One more thing: try hooking it up to TV/projector directly, maybe it is some trouble communicating with the receiver through HDMI. I know that's probably not how you want to handle it on a permanent basis, but may help debug the issue.

One more thing: try hooking it up to TV/projector directly, maybe it is some trouble communicating with the receiver through HDMI. I know that's probably not how you want to handle it on a permanent basis, but may help debug the issue.

Although logic should dictate the AVR or cables ect would/should not dictate how the 8300HDC handles 480i - I have already tried going direct to display and switching cables. Same deal. Like I said the box used to pass it - but just recently stopped - apparently after it's last update.

Does anyone know how long the Navigator download is supposed to last? I have heard between 1-2 hours sometime between 2-4am on the day of transfer?

Jack

jczinn used likely the same drive and it aparently did not work for him

"Her", actually :) but how could you know ;)

This is a problem that just popped up for me. After 5 months of success with an external HD it has stopped working. I thought it was the 8300 HDC so I returned it to TWC and got myself another one. Same problem though, when I shut the cable box off and come back say a half to an hour later to turn it on I get no response from the box. Have to completely reboot just to get the 8300 to turn on. I've even gone so far as to buy another external and unfortunately get the same results. It's almost as if TWC somehow disabled the use of an external HD. I'm really unhappy now, and if I had any other option over TWC I would take it.

ohhh this is exactly what happened to me! It is not encouraging that you are getting the same issue with a second external drive. But I'd think if it were widespread issue we'd see more posts here (or on the eSata thread which I also posted to... ) I am planning to re-hook up the drive tonight to see if the issue appears again (currently the external is disconnected and everything is stable as before.)

15 minute jump is in my version, the other two are not.

Thats a real bummer.Wonder why TWC cable does that to folks.Maybe the other two options will come or they were software busts.Who knows with TWC. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I think there were some places with PASSPORT head-ends that suddenly "locked" PASSPORT to 1080i over HDMI. It may or may not have been in concert with a numbered software update. So this may be a separate problem with the head-end options or software.

v/r,
C-F