Something strange. A friend of mine who knows someone at TWC told me the Sara people will receive a Sara upgrade sometime in Jan. or Feb. He stated it was a sara upgrade not Navigator.This is second hand info but will pass it along for what it's worth. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I just tried Discovery HD, ESPN HD and SciFi (SD) channel, and displayed TV info banner for each. It showed 1080i, 720p and 480i, so, as far as my TV can tell, it is passing the resolution through; it also looks as it normally does (i.e. passes the eyeball test). So, dildatonr, it is likely your box (yet another reason to swap it); you may want to experiment with the order in which you turn on your components - try turning on the DVR last, maybe then it will work.

As for the mall thing, note that if using component cable, you actually specify resolution(s) that your box is allowed to output; it is likely that they hooked it up with component cable and enabled 1080i only. TWC supplies only component cable with their DVRs, so I'd be surprised if in the mall they have something better. Is that Cary Town Center?

The mall kiosk was using HDMI, and yes, that is the Cary Towne Center.

When I looked at the resolution section in the control panel at the mall, it only had 1080i selected, even though the TV was some sort of flat screen, which should be able to accept 720p.

15 minute jump is in my version, the other two are not.

This feature is not in my version of Navigator - 2.4.5_4 - which appears to be the most common version (although some people, I think, still may have 2.4.4_2). I kind of remember reading somewhere about a version that has what you are mentioning as well as restricting series recording by time slot, both of which would be welcome improvements; I also vaguely remember something about Lincoln being one of the few (maybe the only) site having this version, or maybe scheduled for deploying this version soon; then again, maybe the whole thing is still TWC vaporware. Can you please post the link to the web site you are talking about, I'd like a look at the goodies that might be coming my way someday?

By the way, anybody actually having this feature and/or Navigator newer than 2.4.5_4?
I came across this users' guide (http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf)when I was looking for a faster FF. It describes the skip ahead feature, but when I tried it on my box, no go.

How do I determine which software versions my box has loaded?

Thanks,
-Marty

Something strange. A friend of mine who knows someone at TWC told me the Sara people will receive a Sara upgrade sometime in Jan. or Feb. He stated it was a sara upgrade not Navigator.This is second hand info but will pass it along for what it's worth. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

that doesn't sound unusual. SARA was always going to be last in line for Navigator and considering how long it's taking them to update Passport boxes that update could see you through the year.

Does anyone know how long the Navigator download is supposed to last? I have heard between 1-2 hours sometime between 2-4am on the day of transfer?

Jack
The first successful boot after I brought my SA8300HDC box home took about 45 minutes. I do not know if this was a complete Navigator download. I know I had a previously used / refurbished HDC box.

This was preceded by a number of failures on E-13 but those are not included in the 45 minutes.

That first boot can be distinguished from subsequent boots because it did a more complete load sequence, i.e. a quick L-14, then progressing down through L-1 without skipping any numbers (IIRC). Seems to me that L-13 and L-8 took the most time.

Subsequent boots omit certain numbers from the countdown, telling me there are things that don't have to be loaded every time, presumably because they were not updated.

I don't know if that answers your question because I don't have any details about what was downloaded that first time, but maybe it will tell you something.

-Marty

Something strange. A friend of mine who knows someone at TWC told me the Sara people will receive a Sara upgrade sometime in Jan. or Feb. He stated it was a sara upgrade not Navigator.This is second hand info but will pass it along for what it's worth. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Kinda, sorta jibes a tad with the previous TWC "policy" we THINK they have of going Craptigator in Passport areas before they foist it on SARA areas. SARA can do SDV right now, so I'm not so sure doing a SARA update would make all that much sense, far as we know, that would COST TWC.

I came across this users' guide (http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf)when I was looking for a faster FF. It describes the skip ahead feature, but when I tried it on my box, no go.

How do I determine which software versions my box has loaded?

Thanks,
-Marty

Skip ahead works differently than stated in that guide. Instead of manual says, just press and hold FF button down (watch the banner, if you do it for too long, you may end up 30 or 45 minutes ahead). You can go backwards the same way (press and hold Rewind button).

To see the version, press and hold Select for a long time - until you see little mail icon on the box (not on screen) flashing. Then press down arrow.

The mall kiosk was using HDMI, and yes, that is the Cary Towne Center.

When I looked at the resolution section in the control panel at the mall, it only had 1080i selected, even though the TV was some sort of flat screen, which should be able to accept 720p.

The resolution section in the control panel does not mean anything if using HDMI (at least it is not supposed to); normally (if you turn TV on first, then DVR), you can not even get in there; however, if you turn on the box first, then the TV, sometimes you can get in that panel and it will give you appearance of ability to disable/enable stuff even though you have HDMI connection. However, as far as actual signal being passed on through HDMI, it does not matter, it passes the incoming resolution through, as long as TV replies that it can handle it. I hope they did not do something to mess this up and are now silently deploying the downgrade all over.

"Her", actually :) but how could you know ;)



ohhh this is exactly what happened to me! It is not encouraging that you are getting the same issue with a second external drive. But I'd think if it were widespread issue we'd see more posts here (or on the eSata thread which I also posted to... ) I am planning to re-hook up the drive tonight to see if the issue appears again (currently the external is disconnected and everything is stable as before.)

My bad, I had no business making assumptions ;)

Looks like both of you having problems are in NY area - maybe it is your head end issue. This shows why it is a good idea to put your location in your profile.

Kinda, sorta jibes a tad with the previous TWC "policy" we THINK they have of going Craptigator in Passport areas before they foist it on SARA areas. SARA can do SDV right now, so I'm not so sure doing a SARA update would make all that much sense, far as we know, that would COST TWC.
Unless they are switching all sara users to 1.90 for some reason.Understand that the Navigator version being prepped for sara is a differenr version than for passport.Maybe it's just not ready yet and TWC had to extend the sara contract. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Maybe things are working themselves out. I switched from Directtv Tivo after being a sat. guy for ten years to TWC because I just got my new HDTV. I'm a salesman, so I know how to banter pretty good. I worked out a pretty decent deal at the kiosk in the mall with the TWC rep. Direct wanted 300 bucks for the HD dvr and all kind of usual fees. TWC gave me two HD boxes (one of them hddvr) and one sd box and all channels except the premiums (HBO ect.) with road runner for under $90.00 and nothing up front.....for one year of course. But since the usual problems mentioned here with the 8300hdc at the beginning, I'm getting used to the navigator. Updates have speed it up and it serves the pupose. I record lots of series and have not had any problems in over a month. I want to wait and see what TiVo and the sat.s come up with over the next year when of course TWC ups my rates.

I just got a new HD-DVR box from TWC in Columbus, OH and it comes with Navigator. I changed my settings to utilize the new Sort By Favorites option, so that they appear 1st in my Guide. I confirmed that the set of channels I set as favorites do appear in the Guide before channel 1.

But when I do this, and I'm currently watching a channel that is NOT on my list of Favorites and I click the Guide button on my remote, it takes me to that same channel in my Guide. I have to either page up/down, or type in the 1st channel from my Favorites to get to the location in the Guide that displays all my Favorites together.

Is there any way that I can automatically be taken in the Guide to the 1st channel in my list of Favorites when I click the Guide button on my remote?

BTW does anyone know when TWC's contract with Passport expires, at which time they would be forced to renew their contracts, or put Navigator on all Passport systems?

Jack

I just got a new HD-DVR box from TWC in Columbus, OH and it comes with Navigator. I changed my settings to utilize the new Sort By Favorites option, so that they appear 1st in my Guide. I confirmed that the set of channels I set as favorites do appear in the Guide before channel 1.

But when I do this, and I'm currently watching a channel that is NOT on my list of Favorites and I click the Guide button on my remote, it takes me to that same channel in my Guide. I have to either page up/down, or type in the 1st channel from my Favorites to get to the location in the Guide that displays all my Favorites together.

Is there any way that I can automatically be taken in the Guide to the 1st channel in my list of Favorites when I click the Guide button on my remote?

Guide always opens on the channel you are currently watching; I don't believe there's a way to circumvent that. As for workarounds, you can program pressing the guide buitton and then typing that channel number as a macro into your universal remote, if you have one. Otherwise, you can just tune to one of your favorite channels using FAV button. If you want a particular channel, if you set it to be your "power on" chanel, you can turn the box off and on and you'll be watching that channel; if you only watched one channel, you can use jump button to take back to your power on channel. Note that it is quicker to just type in the number inside the guide, as that does not actually tune to the channel, which may take a couple of seconds.

A few problems I'm having now, after finally getting all those dropouts fixed
that had plagued us for over a year, bad analog HBO at the pole:

1. It's not recording some shows that we have scheduled, I have the ABC
World set to record everyday, 3 times in the last week I have checked it an
hour or so before it started recording and it is marked in red to record, it
gets to 6:30pm and no recording go figure. One of my wifes shows is doing
the same thing.

2. Just now my wife was watching one of her shows and the progress bar
wouldn't go away, you couldn't FF, RW, Stop or anything. I even turned the
box off and the show kept playing. I yanked it like I was startin' mower and
let it reboot.

3. A couple weeks ago we were watching and recording Survivor China and
we were about 15 minutes behind. When the Reunion part started at 10pm it
jumped immediately the Reunion and the recorded 2 hour show that we were
watching totally disappeared, gone, erased, zapped! That blew our minds.
We completely missed the question and answer session/abuse session by the
jury! I know we're sick that we're still watching Survivor but hey we like it.

This Reboot thing is starting to become a daily thing.

I'm going to sweat this thing out a little longer but I'm telling you folks TWC
is going to lose customers over this thing.

Grateful11,

If you hit the List button you will see an option to look at the recording log. That might tell you why the box thinks it skipped your recordings.

Are you really rebooting [almost] every day? If not, maybe you should. This usually fixes the DVR on mine.

I don't know what happens to screw it up, but I always have errors in the log about "unresolved scheduling conflict" and "channel not available".

Good luck.

-Marty

Skip ahead works differently than stated in that guide. Instead of manual says, just press and hold FF button down (watch the banner, if you do it for too long, you may end up 30 or 45 minutes ahead). You can go backwards the same way (press and hold Rewind button).

To see the version, press and hold Select for a long time - until you see little mail icon on the box (not on screen) flashing. Then press down arrow.
Thanks for the tips on the controls. I like that skip-ahead feature.

-Marty

Grateful11,

If you hit the List button you will see an option to look at the recording log. That might tell you why the box thinks it skipped your recordings.

Are you really rebooting [almost] every day? If not, maybe you should. This usually fixes the DVR on mine.

I don't know what happens to screw it up, but I always have errors in the log about "unresolved scheduling conflict" and "channel not available".

Good luck.

-Marty

I went in and I see what you are talking about. All the shows that didn't
record say "Not recorded because the channel was not available." I am
rebooting daily if turning off the box, unplugging it and then plugging it
back in is the correct method. At least that's what they told me to do over the
phone. I've rebooted twice today.

I don't have Navigator (I'm just reading this thread to prepare myself for the big switch), but with Passport you can press the Guide button and then press the Favorites button, and you will be taken to the next favorite channel in the guide screen. You could try that.

Also, you could press the Guide button followed by the 1 key, and this should take you to channel 1 which should be the end of your favorites, if I understand your explanation of how Navigator Guide/Favorites works.

-barry

I just got a new HD-DVR box from TWC in Columbus, OH and it comes with Navigator. I changed my settings to utilize the new Sort By Favorites option, so that they appear 1st in my Guide. I confirmed that the set of channels I set as favorites do appear in the Guide before channel 1.

But when I do this, and I'm currently watching a channel that is NOT on my list of Favorites and I click the Guide button on my remote, it takes me to that same channel in my Guide. I have to either page up/down, or type in the 1st channel from my Favorites to get to the location in the Guide that displays all my Favorites together.

Is there any way that I can automatically be taken in the Guide to the 1st channel in my list of Favorites when I click the Guide button on my remote?

I know it's aggravating, but give TWC time to work out kinks. Mine SEEMS to be working ok now. It's not as good as TiVo, but with things going on with the CableCards and stuff and plus TiVo wanting 300 bucks for console and $12.95 a month...I couldn't justify it. It does most of the stuff TiVo did although not as user friendly. Check with TWC to see if you have all the updates. I reboot once a week just for the hell of it. Like I said, I'm giving them a year to see what happens. Note: My son plays high school football and TWC shows the local games on demand. Gives me good video for the colleges..LOL.

I know it's aggravating, but give TWC time to work out kinks.

You do realize this has been deployed in some areas for almost a year and a half and has been in development for three years and possibly longer?

How long do you want to give them?

I went in and I see what you are talking about. All the shows that didn't
record say "Not recorded because the channel was not available." I am
rebooting daily if turning off the box, unplugging it and then plugging it
back in is the correct method. At least that's what they told me to do over the
phone. I've rebooted twice today.

"Channel was not available" is usually a dead giveaway that your box is flaky, especially if it does not get fixed with one reboot. The problem has not gone away so far, and most likely will not. Have TWC replace your box (show their tech the recording log and mention that reboots did not help). Sometimes it takes several tries to get a stable box. I know it is a pain (you lose the stuff you recorded), but what's the point of having a DVR if you don't know if it is going to record or not?

"Channel was not available" is usually a dead giveaway that your box is flaky, especially if it does not get fixed with one reboot. The problem has not gone away so far, and most likely will not. Have TWC replace your box (show their tech the recording log and mention that reboots did not help). Sometimes it takes several tries to get a stable box. I know it is a pain (you lose the stuff you recorded), but what's the point of having a DVR if you don't know if it is going to record or not?

I think that's the pisser for so many people,

Whether this is an issue with the new C-Cards, Navigator, or the cable system's head end itself, after a year of testing and development these box issues should NOT be happening. What about the thousands of people who can't get to a service center because of things like bad weather or health issues? Most people aren't going to be willing to wait around and do this box replacement crap having the need to go through 3-4 boxes to get a working model. That's BS! Who wants to wait several times through for a cable tech to replace a box? People with problems are tired of this and many do not have the options to just go to dish as several have stated above.

If this technology was stable in all areas, these boxes should be lasting for several years instead of months or weeks!

We know that these issues are not problematic in all areas, but for communities with the new hardware/software issues, TWC, the FCC, and Scientific Atlanta (SA) really need better methods of communication to work out these bugs.

Does anyone with Navigator know exactly why there is a longer boot time of 5-10 minutes or more? Is this because of the new features of the software, or is it because of testing modes being activated at the head end, and because of this, a longer boot time is required?

Jack

Ever since I first got an 8300HDC box with Navigator in August my reception on local HD stations, particularly NBC, has frequently been unwatchable. Since I had already had a tech in for other issues where he tested signal strength around the apartment and replaced some splitters, I did think the box was at fault. Re-booting would solve the problem temporarily but it always returned.

Last night out of desperation, I deleted about ten hours of Ken Burns' "The War," which had been recorded (fine) to HD thinking the box just couldn't cope if it were even 70% full. This morning I found that the local HD stations came in just as they should.

But what was more surprising, is that now for the first time, the box is passing 480P where in the past it has always upscaled SD to 1080i. I turned the box off after deleting most of the recorded content but did not reboot. The box has always been connected by HDMI.

Isn't that strange?

Ron

VisionOn,

I did not know that, but then again I've only been with TWC since Oct. and if it's been out that long, that is ridiculous.

VisionOn,

I did not know that, but then again I've only been with TWC since Oct. and if it's been out that long, that is ridiculous.

It's been live that long and we speculated earlier in the thread it could have been in development in one form or another for 6 years(!).

If you've only been with TWC since October then they may seem like they are progressing quite well, but you've only really joined in at the point where they are actually doing something. If they stay their usual course upgrades to Navigator could be a long way down the pipe.

Unless they are switching all sara users to 1.90 for some reason.Understand that the Navigator version being prepped for sara is a differenr version than for passport.Maybe it's just not ready yet and TWC had to extend the sara contract. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

The only "different versions" of it that we know of are for HD and HDC boxes (different RAM amounts). Part of the point is to have a single platform, so I doubt there are "Passport" or "SARA" versions, that makes little sense.

It's been live that long and we speculated earlier in the thread it could have been in development in one form or another for 6 years(!).

If you've only been with TWC since October then they may seem like they are progressing quite well, but you've only really joined in at the point where they are actually doing something. If they stay their usual course upgrades to Navigator could be a long way down the pipe.

Check this out:
*An artical from 2003 about TW's "MystroTV" to compete with TiVo:
http://www.avrev.com/news/0303/11.aol.shtml

*Another article from 2003, which was a few months before Time Warner first released their DVR-with Passport Echo or SARA.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DIZ/is_27_15/ai_104666425

Just Google "Mystro TV"(which was the original name of this, that's the name on the boot screen). I have a really good feeling many of these problems, especially the recording ones, were present back in '03. That's why "Mystro TV" wasn't released. Then, Time Warner tried to release this again in late 2006/early 2007 as "Navigator" and it failed again. Now, it's being released AGAIN on OCAP boxes and it still doesn't work! Three strikes and YOU'RE OUT!!!

Quick question about Navigator.When you go to keyboard search and type in a keyword instead of a title what happens.Keyword was always useful in passport. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Check this out:
*An artical from 2003 about TW's "MystroTV" to compete with TiVo:
http://www.avrev.com/news/0303/11.aol.shtml

*Another article from 2003, which was a few months before Time Warner first released their DVR-with Passport Echo or SARA.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0DIZ/is_27_15/ai_104666425

Just Google "Mystro TV"(which was the original name of this, that's the name on the boot screen). I have a really good feeling many of these problems, especially the recording ones, were present back in '03. That's why "Mystro TV" wasn't released. Then, Time Warner tried to release this again in late 2006/early 2007 as "Navigator" and it failed again. Now, it's being released AGAIN on OCAP boxes and it still doesn't work! Three strikes and YOU'RE OUT!!!There is a very significant difference between the Mystro project and the Navigator software that we are being stuck with: Mystro was a "so-called" network (the 2nd link refers to needing a lot of server power) while Navigator is software that resides in your local DVR. This project got killed by the courts (well in TW's case it was the threat of lawsuits - there were negative decisions about it with another cable company, Cox I think, that was actually in field tests with a similar scheme). I do suspect that the develpment team went on to foist Navigator on us. But the failure of Mystro had nothing to do with technical problems with the software.

BTW: Did you pick up the references to preventing FF through commercials and inserting special commercials? Any way to make an extra buck. :rolleyes:

...Does anyone with Navigator know exactly why there is a longer boot time of 5-10 minutes or more? Is this because of the new features of the software, or is it because of testing modes being activated at the head end, and because of this, a longer boot time is required?

Jack
It's probably not nice to speculate (I'm going to do it anyway), but I wonder if it has to do with Java. That icon scared me a bit the first time I saw the boot screen on th 8300HDC.

-Marty

My wife just informed me that our box is also rebooting itself nearly every morning. I'm going to try and watch what I can this weekend and take it back New Years Eve.

BTW: Did you pick up the references to preventing FF through commercials and inserting special commercials? Any way to make an extra buck. :rolleyes:

The current Navigator software eliminated the 15 minute fast forward. On Passport you can press the left or right arrow while fast forwarding to skip 15 minutes ahead. It was a feature I really missed during the time I had navigator. I was checking the web for an instruction manual for Navigator(since I didn't get one. All I got from the tech was, "By the way, the guide and menus are different on this box") I found a PDF at Nebraska(I think) and it said you can do the 15 min. FF the same way as Passport, but when I tried it, it ddn't work. Maybe it's a software version issue? From what I've read, NE Ohio seems to have an older version than other markets(on Navigator that is).

Now I have a Passport 8300HD and I go to bed every night in fear of the ;)Navigator Boogey Man;) that's supposed to be coming by Q1 of 2008!

Quick question about Navigator.When you go to keyboard search and type in a keyword instead of a title what happens.Keyword was always useful in passport. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Navigator DOES NOT have a Keyword search option. On Passport when you press "C", you get a menu to choose Title or Keyword. Navigator's "B" search option only has Title search.

The down side of Navigator is the List of programs also includes EVERYTHING from On Demand and PPV. That means you have to type in the entire title of a show or you're stuck scrolling through a LONG list. Also, the Navigator keyboard is slower than Passport and Passport has "shortcut buttons" in the search screen.

The current Navigator software eliminated the 15 minute fast forward. On Passport you can press the left or right arrow while fast forwarding to skip 15 minutes ahead. It was a feature I really missed during the time I had navigator. I was checking the web for an instruction manual for Navigator(since I didn't get one. All I got from the tech was, "By the way, the guide and menus are different on this box") I found a PDF at Nebraska(I think) and it said you can do the 15 min. FF the same way as Passport, but when I tried it, it ddn't work. Maybe it's a software version issue? From what I've read, NE Ohio seems to have an older version than other markets(on Navigator that is).

Now I have a Passport 8300HD and I go to bed every night in fear of the ;)Navigator Boogey Man;) that's supposed to be coming by Q1 of 2008!

As mentioned several posts ago, this feature is in Navigator, but you have to press and hold FF button instead of using arrow.

Navigator DOES NOT have a Keyword search option. On Passport when you press "C", you get a menu to choose Title or Keyword. Navigator's "B" search option only has Title search.

The down side of Navigator is the List of programs also includes EVERYTHING from On Demand and PPV. That means you have to type in the entire title of a show or you're stuck scrolling through a LONG list. Also, the Navigator keyboard is slower than Passport and Passport has "shortcut buttons" in the search screen.

Navigator could use the ability to restrict everything (Search, Guide) to a list of channels you care about. For example, it could at least dump the ones you are not subscribed to, and have the ability to hide On Demand stuff, etc.; ideally I'd like to set up something like Favorites, and never see anything else; I couldn't care less about the million music channels, even though I am technically subscribed to them. TWC probably won't do that on purpose, just in case you see something you like but can't have and that entices you to order extra channels or buy an On Demand thingy.

One good thing with the Navigator search is that you can restrict by category (and subcategories), so you don't have to scroll through a long list every time - your list can show, for example, only movies in HD. Granted, a third or so of that list will be HD On Demand movies :mad:

...BTW: Did you pick up the references to preventing FF through commercials and inserting special commercials? Any way to make an extra buck. :rolleyes:
I really hope they forgot about that by now, i.e. perhaps they've come to their senses and realized that a major part of the appeal of "PVR" is skipping commercials.

Anybody else remember W A Y back when cable TV was being introduced and they were pitching the concept of "pay TV" as a way to eliminate advertising from your nightly TV diet? (in the context of "Why would anyone in their right mind pay for a TV signal we can get over the air?" "Wouldn't it be great not to have to watch commercials?" Kinda like what they say now about satellite TV.

-Marty

As mentioned several posts ago, this feature is in Navigator, but you have to press and hold FF button instead of using arrow.
Yes, it is, and that even works on mine, thank you. -Marty

Well, the cable guyS (yes, plural) were here yesterday after a one-week wait.

Did they do anything? Yes, watched a Bruce Willis movie with me for a few minutes and shot the breeze.

Did they bring me a brand-new, non-refurbished SA8300HDC like the Support girl on the phone requested? No, and they said they have no ability to do so.

Did they fix anything? Nope, but they apologized for coming to my house multiple times when they know there is no problem with the box or with the house wiring.

I told them the cable can be working fine (as it is presently) and then begin some digital tiling and deteriorate to a blank screen in a period of ten minutes. It may be down an hour or a day or two, then comes back whenever it feels like it, then it's working fine when they get to the house. They said the same thing happens to them. They escalate a call but by the time the PM guy gets there, everything is working fine.

-Marty

p.s. AND, I had my first spontaneous reboot yesteray around 16:30.

I really miss the search feature where you found a show in the guide and it was half over, no problem in the past you just pressed the "C" button and it would give you a list of all future shows. Any work-around for this with Navigator? The keyboard search is slow and it won't search descriptions like Passport would. IE: I would search "Tractor" and it would give me a list of farm shows that had the word tractor in it's description.

Well, the cable guyS (yes, plural) were here yesterday after a one-week wait.

Did they do anything? Yes, watched a Bruce Willis movie with me for a few minutes and shot the breeze.

Did they bring me a brand-new, non-refurbished SA8300HDC like the Support girl on the phone requested? No, and they said they have no ability to do so.

Did they fix anything? Nope, but they apologized for coming to my house multiple times when they know there is no problem with the box or with the house wiring.

I told them the cable can be working fine (as it is presently) and then begin some digital tiling and deteriorate to a blank screen in a period of ten minutes. It may be down an hour or a day or two, then comes back whenever it feels like it, then it's working fine when they get to the house. They said the same thing happens to them. They escalate a call but by the time the PM guy gets there, everything is working fine.

-Marty

p.s. AND, I had my first spontaneous reboot yesteray around 16:30.

The above information sounds not only typical of TWC, but cable operators throughout the USA! hahaha! The best one was You Tubed about a year ago. It got tons of hits, showing a Comcast tech SLEEPING on his customer's couch while waiting for his main office to activate a box!

An hour or two of downtime is bad, but a day or to! That's BS! I feel your pain. (and I don't even have Navigator yet!) Did they say anything that was constructive?

Jack

Originally Posted by davehancock
...BTW: Did you pick up the references to preventing FF through commercials and inserting special commercials? Any way to make an extra buck. I really hope they forgot about that by now, i.e. perhaps they've come to their senses and realized that a major part of the appeal of "PVR" is skipping commercials.

Anybody else remember W A Y back when cable TV was being introduced and they were pitching the concept of "pay TV" as a way to eliminate advertising from your nightly TV diet? (in the context of "Why would anyone in their right mind pay for a TV signal we can get over the air?" "Wouldn't it be great not to have to watch commercials?" Kinda like what they say now about satellite TV.

-MartyI was really talking about those plans for the REAL MYSTRO - the system that was based on the actual program storage being on a central server - not on your DVR. Also note, that TW HAS implemented a version of this, called "Start-Over" where you can tune into programs in progress and are offered the option to start viewing that program from the beginning. That option does not permit FF, and insertion of alternate commercials has not been done to date.

Again, there is a huge difference between these network based DVR "solutions" - the first of which were code named "Mystro" and on-premises DVRs and Interactive Program Guide software - Navigator, even though TW has, at times, continued to use the "Mystro" code names.

The above information sounds not only typical of TWC, but cable operators throughout the USA! hahaha! The best one was You Tubed about a year ago. It got tons of hits, showing a Comcast tech SLEEPING on his customer's couch while waiting for his main office to activate a box!

An hour or two of downtime is bad, but a day or to! That's BS! I feel your pain. (and I don't even have Navigator yet!) Did they say anything that was constructive?

Jack

Maybe it depends on your local office or even local tech. Several months ago when I had issues with my box, I called TWC on Friday night (around 9); a tech came next day (Saturday) around noon, checked the recording log (with its many "channel not available" messages), brought me the new box, had it authorized, waited until it booted, confirmed that it worked and left; the longest time was the actual booting of the box. I could not ask for much better service (well, I could ask for the box not to break to start with). Then again, maybe at the time (September) they had a lot of new boxes laying around, and now they don't. Or, maybe the fact that I was new as digital cable customer and that, in my area, I could easily switch to satelite, had something to do with it.

The above information sounds not only typical of TWC, but cable operators throughout the USA! hahaha! The best one was You Tubed about a year ago. It got tons of hits, showing a Comcast tech SLEEPING on his customer's couch while waiting for his main office to activate a box!

An hour or two of downtime is bad, but a day or to! That's BS! I feel your pain. (and I don't even have Navigator yet!) Did they say anything that was constructive?

Jack
The worst thing about the multi-day outages is they tend to hit during my time off where I could be watching TV, such as Christmas vacation. They got me with that the first year I moved to this house. Here I was with my brand-new 65" Mitsubishi HDTV and 5.1 sound, watching DVDs because the @!(*&#)@(&_:eek: cable was out.

That's one thing (of many) TWC does not seem to comprehend. It doesn't matter if the cable is up and working great 95% of the time. If it's down the one time I try to watch something, then it is down "all the time" as far as I'm concerned.

The only thing the cable guys said that was kind of consructive was that they discussed between themselves how my service comes down route such & such and so does Othertown (where they're always having problems) and that they've told Mike (must be their manager) that somebody needs to fix that area.

I think the only thing I can do is keep placing Service calls until they get so sick of it that they fix something. Only thing is, I usually get sick of it first. It is a real pain waiting hours for their callbacks, then sitting on the phone for an hour while some idiot makes me reboot three times because she cannot comprehend that the problem is out in their network. Then the day of the service call I have to stay home & babysit the cable guy. Then if you get a contractor, they always want to do something so they can turn in their work-order, so they want to change fittings or splitters or ground blocks even though it has been done to death.

TWC is a prime example of how you can take a bunch of well-meaning, technically competent individuals who are all doing their jobs, and subject them to a bureacracy that makes them totally incompetent, ineffective and even disrespectful to their customers.

-Marty

I was really talking about those plans for the REAL MYSTRO - the system that was based on the actual program storage being on a central server - not on your DVR. Also note, that TW HAS implemented a version of this, called "Start-Over" where you can tune into programs in progress and are offered the option to start viewing that program from the beginning. That option does not permit FF, and insertion of alternate commercials has not been done to date.

Again, there is a huge difference between these network based DVR "solutions" - the first of which were code named "Mystro" and on-premises DVRs and Interactive Program Guide software - Navigator, even though TW has, at times, continued to use the "Mystro" code names.
I see the distinction. I would say (hope? predict?) that in the long run, everything is going "On Demand". I should be able to watch whatever I want whenever I want, more like the Internet. How crappy would it be if you could only go to Amazon.com at 8PM on Tuesdays? Obviously some things will have to be tweaked a little, oh, like the SuperBowl ;) for example, the news, the stock market. For those, I guess the best we can do is "Start-Over" because FF is going to be tough with live events. :D

Cross your fingers. I'm going downstairs to try to watch TV now.

-Marty

Sadly Navigator needs keyword search badly but I bet we never see it for for a LONG LONG LONG time if ever. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Well, the cable guyS (yes, plural) were here yesterday after a one-week wait.

Did they do anything? Yes, watched a Bruce Willis movie with me for a few minutes and shot the breeze.

Did they bring me a brand-new, non-refurbished SA8300HDC like the Support girl on the phone requested? No, and they said they have no ability to do so.

Did they fix anything? Nope, but they apologized for coming to my house multiple times when they know there is no problem with the box or with the house wiring.

I told them the cable can be working fine (as it is presently) and then begin some digital tiling and deteriorate to a blank screen in a period of ten minutes. It may be down an hour or a day or two, then comes back whenever it feels like it, then it's working fine when they get to the house. They said the same thing happens to them. They escalate a call but by the time the PM guy gets there, everything is working fine.

-Marty

p.s. AND, I had my first spontaneous reboot yesteray around 16:30.

If they can't bring you a NEW, NON-REFURBISHED HDC, I would call and b*tch them out and ask for a 8300HD(no C). I was ready to tear Time Warner a new one when I took my box back. I went to the office at Midway Palza and I actually got a 8300HD without having to specificaly ask for it. And in the 3 weeks of having the 8300HD, I've had no reboots, no recording issues and no freeze ups. Getting an 8300HD is like a lightning strike or winning the lottery, but it's worth a shot.

The worst thing about the multi-day outages is they tend to hit during my time off where I could be watching TV, such as Christmas vacation. They got me with that the first year I moved to this house. Here I was with my brand-new 65" Mitsubishi HDTV and 5.1 sound, watching DVDs because the @!(*&#)@(&_:eek: cable was out.

That's one thing (of many) TWC does not seem to comprehend. It doesn't matter if the cable is up and working great 95% of the time. If it's down the one time I try to watch something, then it is down "all the time" as far as I'm concerned.

The only thing the cable guys said that was kind of constructive was that they discussed between themselves how my service comes down route such & such and so does Othertown (where they're always having problems) and that they've told Mike (must be their manager) that somebody needs to fix that area.

I think the only thing I can do is keep placing Service calls until they get so sick of it that they fix something. Only thing is, I usually get sick of it first. It is a real pain waiting hours for their callbacks, then sitting on the phone for an hour while some idiot makes me reboot three times because she cannot comprehend that the problem is out in their network. Then the day of the service call I have to stay home & babysit the cable guy. Then if you get a contractor, they always want to do something so they can turn in their work-order, so they want to change fittings or splitters or ground blocks even though it has been done to death.

TWC is a prime example of how you can take a bunch of well-meaning, technically competent individuals who are all doing their jobs, and subject them to a bureaucracy that makes them totally incompetent, ineffective and even disrespectful to their customers.

-Marty

The thing is that for years many TWC CSR's and techs have been anything BUT:

"technically competent individuals who are all doing their jobs." Throw in "disrespectful" as well.

What's the job prerequisite for a field tech? Knowing how to drive a truck and climb a pole! That's about it.

Now back to Navigator. Oh yea, and it's a COS that they can't bring you a new box either. It seems that while the used 8300 non-C boxes have worked best, the completely new 8300C boxes have had less problems than the older C boxes.


Jack

I have an SA 8300 HDC and have had to reboot it several times. Now it does not complete the rebooting anymore; the box shows OCAP and nothing happens!!!!! Any idea on how to resolve this problem? A Time Warner guy is suppose to come on Monday, but I am going to end up missing the Patriots-Giants game. Thanks

Now back to Navigator. Oh yea, and it's a COS that they can't bring you a new box either. It seems that while the used 8300 non-C boxes have worked best, the completely new 8300C boxes have had less problems than the older C boxes.


Jack

I had a brand new, out of the box HDC box and it still was a POS!

The thing is that for years many TWC CSR's and techs have been anything BUT:

"technically competent individuals who are all doing their jobs." Throw in "disrespectful" as well.

What's the job prerequisite for a field tech? Knowing how to drive a truck and climb a pole! That's about it.

Now back to Navigator. Oh yea, and it's a COS that they can't bring you a new box either. It seems that while the used 8300 non-C boxes have worked best, the completely new 8300C boxes have had less problems than the older C boxes.


Jack

It makes me think of the arse that came to fix my grandmother's TV. The TV would black out for 10 sconds and come back on. I wasn't there, but the guy came out and fixed wiring outside and checked signal levels. After he left, he was outside for awhile and the TV still went out. You know what he told her? "It takes a couple of months for it to straighten itself out." I couldn't believe it! I went with her to the local TW office to return the box. With a new box the TV worked fine. She had two people out and not one of them looked at the box.

The guy that installed my OCRAP box was really nice and explained how their policies work and he said that they are not allowed to just change out boxes. They have to prove it doesn't work. I had a dead 8000HD and he had to change the power cord before he replaced the box.

The thing is that for years many TWC CSR's and techs have been anything BUT:

"technically competent individuals who are all doing their jobs." Throw in "disrespectful" as well.

What's the job prerequisite for a field tech? Knowing how to drive a truck and climb a pole! That's about it.

Now back to Navigator. Oh yea, and it's a COS that they can't bring you a new box either. It seems that while the used 8300 non-C boxes have worked best, the completely new 8300C boxes have had less problems than the older C boxes.


Jack
From what I can tell, I've had some competent cable guys. I've also had some real idiots, but I think those were contractors (non-commercial pickup truck + magnetic sign).

The system seems to break down when there is nothing wrong at my house. The cable guy escalates it to (PM?) but there is no follow-through at that level. They tell me something like, "If it is still messing up in a week or two, call us again."

I have never had the individuals disrespect me, but rather, the system they are part of (Time Warner Corporation and its support procedures) is disrespectful as a whole to its customers. They make me wait hours for a callback. They deny there are widespread problems with their network. They make me reboot the box even though I've already done so numerous times. They fail to credit my account for the outages. They ask me drive in the snow to exchange a perfectly good 8300HD box for an HDC box that they know is plagued with gremlins.

BUT, my #1 complaint about their support process: they close the call without me confirming that the problem has been resolved. How can they possibly track and age a problem if they close it as soon as a cable guy has visited the house, regardless of whether he fixed the problem? They can't and don't want to.

-Marty

I have an SA 8300 HDC and have had to reboot it several times. Now it does not complete the rebooting anymore; the box shows OCAP and nothing happens!!!!! Any idea on how to resolve this problem? A Time Warner guy is suppose to come on Monday, but I am going to end up missing the Patriots-Giants game. Thanks
You're doing the right thing but you're correct about missing the game.

You may just want to let it set for a couple hours or until morning. Less aggravating.

-Marty

What ever happened to "The Power of YOU"? It seems when I call I have to wait for THEM to call me back. It's usually 45 minutes to several hours. The soonest they can schedule an apointment is a week later at the earliest. They raised the price of DVR from $5.95 to $6.95 a month after unleashing the new HDC/Navigator DVRs. MORE $$$$ for something that is LESS functional!

My question is: What can be done about this?

I've read MANY horror stories on this forum and others. Why hasn't the BBC or the FCC been contacted about this? Why has no action been taken? Our local ABC affiliate did a troubleshooter report about a woman that was supposed to get a refund from Time Warner and they never gave it to her. The reporter said that Time Warner in NE Ohio has had over 300 complaints with the BBB in the last 3 years and half of those were from this year alone. With Navigator downgrade imminent, I can only see the number of complaints going up.

Especially with prices like $100 and up, this level of service is UNACCEPTABLE! Even though phone and internet may not have as many problems as TV, for that money ALL 3 SHOULD WORK. The prices creep up each year yet it seems the quality of service goes down.

The good news for me is that in over 20 years I have had very good service from TWC. (All elements worked.) I had maybe 5 service calls and two of them were to replace buggy SA boxes who's PPV pin functions didn't work right. Of those 5, I had maybe two inept techs and a supervisor who was excellent when I was getting the run around. My old Pioneer box worked for 6 years and was only replaced when I went to "All in One Service" with a DVR. But remember that I have had Passport software and a division who has been TWC since the mid 80's.

In fact, TWC bought out a very poor performance cable outlet that was in my city back around 1990. The only time that I have had problems getting through on the phone was back in January-February when Navigator was first rolled out with the high call volume message and back in November during the big football game where customers were all complaining that TWC couldn't get NFL Network.

But on a global national level, I think the company sucks. There are far too many divisions with inept people, poor management, bad head-ends, faulty C-boxes, and bad Navigator. It's an overall, ineptness. The technology is there, and we have seen more funding, more specialties, and TWC's commitment to education and the public school system, (at least in my division.) But I think on this global level, the people who are managing the technology don't know what they are doing. It's almost like TWC in several divisions has forgotten its roots that are supposed to be cable TV. Yes, it's wonderful that for the most part they have had success with Road Runner and Digital Phone. Now if they can do those elements well, why can't they do the same for the cable tv part of the service in all divisions?

I think there is one important variable that can determine quality of service. If your TWC division has been around for 15-20 years or more, the generally seem to have a better overall track record. If your TWC division has "bought out" a competing cable division such as Adelphia or Comcast, that is where you are more likely to get service and performance where no one knows what is going on. My philosophy is that technology can only be as good as the foundation on which it rests, and the people who run it.

Jack

For what it's worth...
for those of you whom have had the same issues with HDMI locking out 4801/p - forcing upscaling to 720p I suggest using component/optical output instead of hdmi. The box doesn't lock resolutions when using component.

One weird quirk I've noticed with this box and 2 of my last 8300HD boxes that had passport is elevated black levels on HDMI output. When I calibrated my display for HDMI with the 8300HDC my brightness level had to be set to 27 on SD channels and 35 on HD channels. When using component both HD and SD signals need to be set to 47.

To give you a point of reference, my display is professionally calibrated by Avical for a base setting of 45 brightness. Both my HD DVD and BR players are perfect at 45. So going out component there's only a slight adjustment. HDMI on these boxes is all kinds of screwy - in my experience.

For what it's worth...
for those of you whom have had the same issues with HDMI locking out 4801/p - forcing upscaling to 720p I suggest using component/optical output instead of hdmi. The box doesn't lock resolutions when using component.

One weird quirk I've noticed with this box and 2 of my last 8300HD boxes that had passport is elevated black levels on HDMI output. When I calibrated my display for HDMI with the 8300HDC my brightness level had to be set to 27 on SD channels and 35 on HD channels. When using component both HD and SD signals need to be set to 47.

To give you a point of reference, my display is professionally calibrated by Avical for a base setting of 45 brightness. Both my HD DVD and BR players are perfect at 45. So going out component there's only a slight adjustment. HDMI on these boxes is all kinds of screwy - in my experience.My experience as a calibrator (on SARA I admit) is the opposite - HDMI from SA8300HD agrees perfectly with my Accupel. I'd be surprised if the software (Navigator or Passport) would be any different.

My experience as a calibrator (on SARA I admit) is the opposite - HDMI from SA8300HD agrees perfectly with my Accupel. I'd be surprised if the software (Navigator or Passport) would be any different.

Well that's just odd. Maybe they just ship all their funky boxes to Poughkeepsie NY.

I have to admit this.I am on Sara 1.89.17.1 with a 8300hd.This system has had a flawless record with me.Have had the same box over 2 years and have only had one show not record.My division here is Greensboro NC does a good job in passing on any sara upgrades to us.It has been in my experience the techs are friendly and respectful.Once had some picture problems and rep spent 3 hours here til it was fixed to my satisfaction.With this record I shutter thinking about Navigator.TWC and SARA have just been to good hate to break up a great team.

does anyone at time warner even look at this feature ? on a 16x9 screen the box is about a 1/3 into the middle of the screen totaly wrong? it should be in the bottom corner or the top? I just cant belive it is sitting where it is you cant use it ?
anyone else see this?

Since I'm new to TWC and have only experience with Navigator, I can now see why y'all like Passport better. Went over to friends house to watch game last night and he had the 8300HD with Passport. I played around with it and found I like it much better than Mystro Navigator. Is this a contractual thing with TWC between Passport or Mystro? Why would they switch to an inferior product? :confused:

Does anyone know of an email address or web page exists to submit feature requests for the new Navigator software? So far it seems okay on a replacement SA8300 HDC here in Cincinnati with TWC. The only serious complaint I have about it is that the Navigator software doesn't allow you to define the screen mode under HDMI like Passport did. I was able to connect to an Olevia 337V with HDMI under a SA8300 HD with Passport and limit the screen modes to just 1080i or 720p. Under Navigator this isn't possible and the HDTV will flash its blue mode screen each time the SA8300 HD switch resolutions on different channels. This is keeping me from using HDMI for now. I am hoping we can request useful features like this one via some feedback form at TWC.

TWC NYC Subscriber - Well I'm glad I found this forum. I'm not crazy after all. TWC refuses to admit there is anything wrong with the new box "C" box. Had two 8300 HD's from day one (running Passport) and they worked very, very well (as long as there were no signal strength problems from the street). Hard drive finally died on one and it was replaced with an 8300 HDC. What a horrible buggy operating system Mystro Navigator is.

It constantly freezes; becomes unresponsive to keypad input; reboots; does not record when it should; erases recorded shows for no (valid) reason; can't rewind a show in progress, if you're recording it as well, without first changing the channel and then going back to it; doesn't automatically search to the show you've highlighted in the program guide; no longer has subtractive keyboard lettering on search; forces you to save no less than three previous episodes of a series recording (Passport allowed one-show save and overwrite) so if (for example) you record a number of evening newscasts each day - your HD gets filled up with days of useless old-news programs that you have to manually delete; it doesn't tell you immediately if you have a recording conflict - you've got to search the list afterwords; the new "TV Guide" program guide no longer tells you if a show is a repeat - only if it is new; can't choose to record a later airing of a program (e.g: if you don't want to record the 9:00 PM version of a new "How It's Made" because you're recording two other shows at that time that only run once - well you're just out of luck unless you change it manually - and you better check the conflict list - b/c it just records the last two shows you scheduled and silently ignores the first one) - and I could go on!

What were they thinking releasing this poorly written piece of software? Not one of these issues existed in the years-old Passport software. Isn't anyone from TW monitoring the BB's? How can they not care? The operating system on the 8300HDC is a giant step backwards! No wonder there's a delay answering your service call due to "excessive call volume."

I'm curious. I'm getting the impression that most of the people who are having bad results with Navigator are using HDMI. Let's try a very simple mini-poll. Reply to this message with a two word reply: the first word should be "Reliable" or "Unreliable" and the second word should be "HDMI" or "component".

-barry

Unreliable
Component

When I had Navigator:

Unreliable, Component

With Passport now:

Reliable, Component

Thank the Lord I'm on SARA.

I'm curious. I'm getting the impression that most of the people who are having bad results with Navigator are using HDMI. Let's try a very simple mini-poll. Reply to this message with a two word reply: the first word should be "Reliable" or "Unreliable" and the second word should be "HDMI" or "component".

-barry

Unreliable Component

"Channel was not available" is usually a dead giveaway that your box is flaky, especially if it does not get fixed with one reboot. The problem has not gone away so far, and most likely will not. Have TWC replace your box (show their tech the recording log and mention that reboots did not help). Sometimes it takes several tries to get a stable box. I know it is a pain (you lose the stuff you recorded), but what's the point of having a DVR if you don't know if it is going to record or not?

Well I'm off work today so I took the box back, this is the 3rd Navigator box I've had. So far so good. I'll chime back in a few days. The lady said if I kept having problem to come up and tell them and they would send out their top tech. She tried to find me an old box but none had been turned in lately.

TWC NYC Subscriber - Well I'm glad I found this forum. I'm not crazy after all. TWC refuses to admit there is anything wrong with the new box "C" box. Had two 8300 HD's from day one (running Passport) and they worked very, very well (as long as there were no signal strength problems from the street). Hard drive finally died on one and it was replaced with an 8300 HDC. What a horrible buggy operating system Mystro Navigator is.

It constantly freezes; becomes unresponsive to keypad input; reboots; does not record when it should; erases recorded shows for no (valid) reason; can't rewind a show in progress, if you're recording it as well, without first changing the channel and then going back to it; doesn't automatically search to the show you've highlighted in the program guide; no longer has subtractive keyboard lettering on search; forces you to save no less than three previous episodes of a series recording (Passport allowed one-show save and overwrite) so if (for example) you record a number of evening newscasts each day - your HD gets filled up with days of useless old-news programs that you have to manually delete; it doesn't tell you immediately if you have a recording conflict - you've got to search the list afterwords; the new "TV Guide" program guide no longer tells you if a show is a repeat - only if it is new; can't choose to record a later airing of a program (e.g: if you don't want to record the 9:00 PM version of a new "How It's Made" because you're recording two other shows at that time that only run once - well you're just out of luck unless you change it manually - and you better check the conflict list - b/c it just records the last two shows you scheduled and silently ignores the first one) - and I could go on!

What were they thinking releasing this poorly written piece of software? Not one of these issues existed in the years-old Passport software. Isn't anyone from TW monitoring the BB's? How can they not care? The operating system on the 8300HDC is a giant step backwards! No wonder there's a delay answering your service call due to "excessive call volume."

Hi WFC,

Welcome to the forum! Could you please post your location in your profile? This is helpful to determine areas with C-boxes/Navigator troubleshooting. We have found performance varies from area to area.

Jack

I'm curious. I'm getting the impression that most of the people who are having bad results with Navigator are using HDMI. Let's try a very simple mini-poll. Reply to this message with a two word reply: the first word should be "Reliable" or "Unreliable" and the second word should be "HDMI" or "component".

-barry

Reliable HDMI

I just got a replacement SA8300 HDC DVR with TWC in Cincinnati and have the opposite complaint of everyone else here. My previous SA8300 HD with Passport allowed me to limit the HDMI output to only 720p or 1080i. The new SA8300 HDC with Navigator doesn't give me that option and passes through the resolution instead. I find this distracting because on my Olevia 337V this causes the HDMI mode screen to constantly appear as I channel surf.

TWC NYC Subscriber - Well I'm glad I found this forum. I'm not crazy after all. TWC refuses to admit there is anything wrong with the new box "C" box. Had two 8300 HD's from day one (running Passport) and they worked very, very well (as long as there were no signal strength problems from the street). Hard drive finally died on one and it was replaced with an 8300 HDC. What a horrible buggy operating system Mystro Navigator is.

It constantly freezes; becomes unresponsive to keypad input; reboots; does not record when it should; erases recorded shows for no (valid) reason; can't rewind a show in progress, if you're recording it as well, without first changing the channel and then going back to it; doesn't automatically search to the show you've highlighted in the program guide; no longer has subtractive keyboard lettering on search; forces you to save no less than three previous episodes of a series recording (Passport allowed one-show save and overwrite) so if (for example) you record a number of evening newscasts each day - your HD gets filled up with days of useless old-news programs that you have to manually delete; it doesn't tell you immediately if you have a recording conflict - you've got to search the list afterwords; the new "TV Guide" program guide no longer tells you if a show is a repeat - only if it is new; can't choose to record a later airing of a program (e.g: if you don't want to record the 9:00 PM version of a new "How It's Made" because you're recording two other shows at that time that only run once - well you're just out of luck unless you change it manually - and you better check the conflict list - b/c it just records the last two shows you scheduled and silently ignores the first one) - and I could go on!

What were they thinking releasing this poorly written piece of software? Not one of these issues existed in the years-old Passport software. Isn't anyone from TW monitoring the BB's? How can they not care? The operating system on the 8300HDC is a giant step backwards! No wonder there's a delay answering your service call due to "excessive call volume."

SARA also lets you do one show recording and rewrite.if Navigator does not offer this feature it really blows.

My Navigator 8300HDC box is connected via Coaxial cable to a standard tube TV. It still has most of the software related problems mentioned in most posts above (I call and get a monthly credit on the DVR fee due to the problems, and TWC keeps promising a major upgrade is due any day now...any day now...).

In my experience, the connecting cable shouldn't have anything to do with how the buggy Mystro Navigator operating system functions, but it could affect the HD viewing options and sound problems that some experience.

I'd be on here complaining more often and more loudly about Navigator if it was on my main TV. But, so far, I still have a well behaving 8300HD with Passport connected via HDMI to my living room LCD. If Navigator is not forced down on to the non-OCAP boxes until the bugs are finally worked out, I'll stick with TWC. But, if they remove my Passport and force install Navigator in its current form, I'm gonna be switching fast! I've been studying the pros and cons of WOW-cable, AT&T uVerse, DirecTV, and DishNetwork, all of which are available where I live, so I'll be ready to make a decision if the time comes.

Unreliable - HDMI

Component - too early to judge

SARA also lets you do one show recording and rewrite.if Navigator does not offer this feature it really blows.
Passport did - Navigator -no. It's beyond reason.

You're doing the right thing but you're correct about missing the game.

You may just want to let it set for a couple hours or until morning. Less aggravating.

-Marty
Marty,

That was a great advice. I did completely turn off the cable box by unplugging it from the electric outlet and let it sit overnight. When I re-plugged it, it did re-boot properly and is now working fine. Unfortunately, I did miss the game.

Thanks,
Hugues

TWC NYC Subscriber - Well I'm glad I found this forum. I'm not crazy after all. TWC refuses to admit there is anything wrong with the new box "C" box. Had two 8300 HD's from day one (running Passport) and they worked very, very well (as long as there were no signal strength problems from the street). Hard drive finally died on one and it was replaced with an 8300 HDC. What a horrible buggy operating system Mystro Navigator is.

It constantly freezes; becomes unresponsive to keypad input; reboots; does not record when it should; erases recorded shows for no (valid) reason; can't rewind a show in progress, if you're recording it as well, without first changing the channel and then going back to it; doesn't automatically search to the show you've highlighted in the program guide; no longer has subtractive keyboard lettering on search; forces you to save no less than three previous episodes of a series recording (Passport allowed one-show save and overwrite) so if (for example) you record a number of evening newscasts each day - your HD gets filled up with days of useless old-news programs that you have to manually delete; it doesn't tell you immediately if you have a recording conflict - you've got to search the list afterwords; the new "TV Guide" program guide no longer tells you if a show is a repeat - only if it is new; can't choose to record a later airing of a program (e.g: if you don't want to record the 9:00 PM version of a new "How It's Made" because you're recording two other shows at that time that only run once - well you're just out of luck unless you change it manually - and you better check the conflict list - b/c it just records the last two shows you scheduled and silently ignores the first one) - and I could go on!

What were they thinking releasing this poorly written piece of software? Not one of these issues existed in the years-old Passport software. Isn't anyone from TW monitoring the BB's? How can they not care? The operating system on the 8300HDC is a giant step backwards! No wonder there's a delay answering your service call due to "excessive call volume."

This is a beautifully well worded letter describing all of the bugs that we have talked about. I hope that the division heads are aware of these bugs and annoyances because this REALLY hurts TWC's PR image if they were not informed about these things. Update for me, is that it appears that Navigator has been delayed in my area. (Plans were for deployment by the first of the year.) It has shown up on some non-OCAP boxes, but not on non-OCAP DVR's yet. Here in Wisconsin, we were very fortunate to have the Navigator test roll out last January and at that time, as you might have guessed it was beyond awful. (Although, I have been told not as bad as what happened when the rollout was deployed regardless of box type or model in Lincoln Nebraska.) So far, from what little information I have the recent roll-out to non-DVR's has been OK. (The non-OCAP boxes) The rollout began around the second week of December, and supposedly they are doing each roll out individually by box type to avoid conflicts and problems.

What is still unknown or at least needs further study is. Are the problems:

1.) Exclusive to OCAP (C-Boxes)? Sara uses have reported problems with OCAP. Haven't heard about Passport and OCAP

2.) Related to head ends and state network cable structures that can not handle OCAP technology?

3.) The lack of communication between the functionality of the OS (regardless of Passport, Navigator, or Sara) the OCAP boxes (predominately Scientific Atlanta (SA) ) and the cable companies?

4.) How often the head-ends of a cable system are updated, how the OS and the boxes respond to updates?

5.) The experience and competency of the engineers, programmers, and field techs, which may vary considerably from state to state and even from division to division within a state?

IF Navigator starts getting rolled out on non OCAP boxes with little or no problems than we know that it is most likely the cable cards/design of the OCAP boxes more than Navigator stability. If Navigator is problematic on the non-OCAP boxes, than Navigator is most likely the problem and should be shelved with TWC paying Passport for the updates to support SDV technology.

But having said all of this, people should not be having to go through the problems that they are having trying to be rocket scientists to get a functionally stable new box and IPG. Either TWC, the FCC, SA, or a combination of all three created a foundation and system that clearly was not tested before the deadline of July 1, 2007. This was when the FCC mandated that the cable operators must rent out Integrated Cable Card boxes. Despite what TWC says, nowhere did they say that they HAD to develop Navigator. TWC choose not to pay Passport the licensing fees to support SDV updates, which would have meant later versions of the Passport IPG. To save money, they insisted on developing their own in-house version IPG called Navigator in two versions:

1.) The first version was/is OCAP Digital Navigator, which was developed for TWC OCAP boxes and DVR's. (This is the version that you have with any C-box or DVR unit that has a C in the model number.) It's also the version causing all of the problems in divisions that have reported problems.

2.) The second version is called Mystro Digital Navigator for NON-OCAP (non-C boxes.) This is what is soon to be rolled out to my area on all non-C cable boxes and DVR's. A Milwaukee forum reported that the low memory HD Pioneer boxes get Navigator a few weeks ago downloaded to those boxes. Haven't heard of any problems so far. The early test rollouts last year were for older model Pace, and SA boxes. The download was stopped when my local office heard of the problems with Navigator in other areas. It is unknown whether these test downloads were originally designed for OCAP boxes. The test downloads were aborted in Milwaukee about March of last year due to problems.

2b.) We expect the download of Navigator to non-OCAP DVR's sometime between now and January 31st. Answers on Demand has Passport information and is leaving the line up at the end of January.

3.) A third version of Navigator is RUMORED to be in development for Sara systems sometime later next year. Others have said that TWC may release a Sara update in the interim. Sara supports SDV video now, so a move to Navigator may not be necessary. But TWC really wants one guide that they can control and regulate across state lines. They say it makes updates and consolidation of information easier, but at what expense?

The DVR downloads of Navigator as well as the remaining non-OCAP boxes will tell so much. I will never forget this quote: If technology doesn't work for people, it doesn't work at all. (This was an old advertising TV quote, and I can't remember where it was from, but it is so true!)

Jack

Little off subject-HAPPY NEW YEAR to all.Especially those new have not been Navigated yet,Good luck in the comeing year to those who have. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL

Yeah, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!! :D Let's hope the new year brings more HD for us as well as an end to Navigator! :D :D :D :D

HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!!!!!

Jack

I'm curious. I'm getting the impression that most of the people who are having bad results with Navigator are using HDMI. Let's try a very simple mini-poll. Reply to this message with a two word reply: the first word should be "Reliable" or "Unreliable" and the second word should be "HDMI" or "component".

-barry
unreliable component

(though it has been working for like 3 days now, including DVR, knock on wood)

Today I noticed that my analog TV (coax direct into TV tuner) and my digital TV (SA8300HDC + Navigator to HDTV component video input) are in sync, i.e. if I tune to the same program on both TVs, the voices (and I assume pictures) are at the same place.

Previously, with my SA8300HD + Passport, the digital TV was always behind the analog TV by several seconds.

I'm not suggesting that this is significant or indicative of any problem or lack thereof. I'm just contributing it to the discussion of differences we've noticed among the various boxes & software.

-Marty

Skip ahead works differently than stated in that guide. Instead of manual says, just press and hold FF button down (watch the banner, if you do it for too long, you may end up 30 or 45 minutes ahead). You can go backwards the same way (press and hold Rewind button).

To see the version, press and hold Select for a long time - until you see little mail icon on the box (not on screen) flashing. Then press down arrow.
With my SA8300HDC + Navigator 2.4.4_2 box, is there a way to get to an RF diagnostic/status screen that shows, for example, the signal levels and bit error rates?

I'm looking for something similar to the "RF network" screen that I used to access via Passport channel 611.

I found this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=471859) but have not been able to get the diagnostic screens they show. Either that info is not applicable to my box or I am doing something wrong.

Thanks,
-Marty

Marty - I think that's happening because, it seems, the HDC does not automatically buffer the last hour of material at all times (even when box is off) as the HD does. With the HD - when you first turn it on - the last hour of whatever was on, on the turn-on channel, was always available for rewind and viewing. With the HDC - it isn't there anymore. My guess is that if you watch something that is also being recorded on the HDC after you tune away and tune back - it will no longer be in sync with the analog TV. The fact that the HDC does not automatically retain the last hour of what was on before you turned it on - is just another lost feature from Passport to Navigator. For the same reason, I believe, you cannot directly rewind a show you are watching and recording simultaneously without first tuning away, then back, then rewind. I think the video path is different for watching live and watching 'live off disk'

I previously had two 8300HD's and the only way to sync them was to not have anything being actively recorded on either - then tune both away from the channel you wanted to sync and then tune them back - worked like a charm! I haven't been out of sync yet between the HD and HDC - perhaps because of the phenomenon you observed and posted here.

With my SA8300HDC + Navigator 2.4.4_2 box, is there a way to get to an RF diagnostic/status screen that shows, for example, the signal levels and bit error rates?

I'm looking for something similar to the "RF network" screen that I used to access via Passport channel 611.

I found this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=471859) but have not been able to get the diagnostic screens they show. Either that info is not applicable to my box or I am doing something wrong.

Thanks,
-Marty

it's channel 996 for TW NYC - but it takes several minutes to load on the HDC Navigator box after you tune to it. On the HD Passport box - it loads immediately

Reliable - component

Reliable - component


Could be - I'm tempted to try it.

But my gut says Navigator/SA8300HDC combo is 'buggy' and that TWC and most other HDTV providers did a piss poor job of QA with the SA8300HDC with their firmware that rides on this POS combo.

I just had to reboot the STB....again....got the blank white screen while flicking channels (could hear audio, could see the Navigator channel selection display, confirmed that DVD and VCR worked fine).

While rebooting typically 'solves' my problems - this is nothing more than a 'workaround'.

As an engineer for 15 years, I can say that "workarounds" are a sign of bad design, poor testing, and/or shoddy QA and CM.

Erik

Could be - I'm tempted to try it.

But my gut says Navigator/SA8300HDC combo is 'buggy' and that TWC and most other HDTV providers did a piss poor job of QA with the SA8300HDC with their firmware that rides on this POS combo.

I just had to reboot the STB....again....got the blank white screen while flicking channels (could hear audio, could see the Navigator channel selection display, confirmed that DVD and VCR worked fine).

While rebooting typically 'solves' my problems - this is nothing more than a 'workaround'.

As an engineer for 15 years, I can say that "workarounds" are a sign of bad design, poor testing, and/or shoddy QA and CM.

Erik


I had that problem too. I noticed it happened when the box changed output formats. After flipping through channels and the box changing from 1080i to 720p to 480i repeatedly, it was stuck on a white screen with no picture, just the menus. A reboot fixed it.

Component works OK because you can choose the output(I have it set for 1080i all the time-it looks the best) On HDMI, it changes resolutions based on the source.

I believe the HDMI outputs can be changed on Passport, but I still use Component and have it set on 1080i.

Happy New Year everyone.

I am a current TWC subscriber with Navigator in KC. Fortunate to have been bug-free for the most part. Keep in mind that this is my first DVR. I have a hardware-type question instead of software.

I currently have the "Audio" setting to HDMI, with the HDMI running from the 8300 to my Pio5070.

I'm adding a receiver this weekend and will continue to leave the 8300 connected to the Pio for video. On the audio side I'm going to connect an optical cable from the 8300 to the Onkyo. For this type of setup do I need to choose "Dolby Digital" or "Other" under the audio settings on the 8300?

Thank you for your time and help.

Skid

I use "other" because it cuts out in DD. So I just manually change it on the receiver to DD if I know it's being presented in DD.

I use "other" because it cuts out in DD. So I just manually change it on the receiver to DD if I know it's being presented in DD.

What do you mean by "cuts out"? Is it occasional audio drop outs? That would be quite interesting, if it happens with DD, and not with "other".

What is going on is that Scientific Atlanta made a choice that only one digital-out format can be passed out of the cable box to cost-reduce the box. That means that if your TV has indicated that it cannot process Dolby Digital, the box will then decompress the Dolby Digital for you and then output PCM (pulse coded modulation) audio, which is basically decompressed audio. The problem is that PCM takes up much more throughput, so the cable box must convert 5.1-channel Dolby Digital to 2-channel PCM audio to make it fit within its throughput budget. It then sends it out the HDMI port, the TOSLINK port, and the S/PDIF port. Navigator and Passport allows you to override this, but that means that the TV will either put out garbage audio or no audio at all because it cannot understand Dolby Digital.

In short, if you want digital audio to be sent to a television that does not understand Dolby Digital, you must choose "Other" or "PCM", depending on what software your box runs. If you want to really make your home theater system sound its best, select "Dolby Digital". If you want both the TV and the home theater system's speakers running, hook the TV up with analog audio.

Now, if your TV decodes Dolby Digital, then your TV will state that it is able to use Dolby Digital coming in through the HDMI port, so the box will automatically select "Dolby Digital" for you in this case.

This is a hardware limitation that Navigator and Passport are attempting to work around in the best possible manner. Hopefully, the 8550HDC will not have this limitation, but I am not holding my breath for this.

I would like it if there was a way to map incoming resolutions to output resolutions. This would be very useful for different people.

If there was a person who hates the time it takes to switch resolutions, then he or she could tell the box to keep everything at 720p or 1080i.

Another person might want the TV to do all the scaling and does not mind resolution switching.

A third person might want to avoid resolutions that will cause the TV's scaler to activate because it is worse than the scaler in the cable box. (This is my situation because my family's CRT-based RPTV was an early model which uses component in only, and the built-in scaler pixelizes everything because it must sample the image and then scale it when it is in use. It pixelizes everything because it takes way too few samples per line. Its inputs take in 480i, 480p, and 1080i; but its CRTs cannot render 480i, so it must send all 480i to the scaler. 720p causes the TV to blue screen. 480p and 1080i are passed through. Therefore I either have it set to 1080i only or 1080i and 480p, because most SD shows looks better scaled to 1080i by the cable box, but a few of them look better scaled to 480p by the cable box.)

This feature should allow advanced users to override their HDMI defaults, but should disable any resolutions that the HDMI or DVI port have shown that the TV cannot understand.

Happy New Year everyone.

I am a current TWC subscriber with Navigator in KC. Fortunate to have been bug-free for the most part. Keep in mind that this is my first DVR. I have a hardware-type question instead of software.

I currently have the "Audio" setting to HDMI, with the HDMI running from the 8300 to my Pio5070.

I'm adding a receiver this weekend and will continue to leave the 8300 connected to the Pio for video. On the audio side I'm going to connect an optical cable from the 8300 to the Onkyo. For this type of setup do I need to choose "Dolby Digital" or "Other" under the audio settings on the 8300?

Thank you for your time and help.

Skid
another TWC KC user here with navigator. if you want 5.1 audio passed to your receiver, change the navigator setting to dolby digital and wire the dvr's coax or optical out straight to your receiver. you'll still get video to your tv via hdmi.

if your tv has an optical audio output, you can run that to the receiver instead (leaving navigator set to HDMI, not dd) and you will get 2 channel stereo unless your tv has the ability to passthrough dd audio (mine doesnt).

I had that problem too. I noticed it happened when the box changed output formats. After flipping through channels and the box changing from 1080i to 720p to 480i repeatedly, it was stuck on a white screen with no picture, just the menus. A reboot fixed it.

Component works OK because you can choose the output(I have it set for 1080i all the time-it looks the best) On HDMI, it changes resolutions based on the source.

I believe the HDMI outputs can be changed on Passport, but I still use Component and have it set on 1080i.

I'm having the same problem with a 4250HDC that I just swapped out for a prior 8300HD. I'm bummed and was told by TWC there is nothing you can do about it. Now I have to use component.

What do you mean by "cuts out"? Is it occasional audio drop outs? That would be quite interesting, if it happens with DD, and not with "other".

When I had the occasional audio drop outs, I tried settings other than DD and they were still there. I tried forcing digital audio into PCM 48 as well as the regular stereo outputs and the cable output and the problem didn't go away. I was afraid something was wrong with my equipment at first, but this problem is definately something in the box. It's either a Navigator or HDC problem. I have a 8300HD and this problem is not there.

Also, on Navigator "Other" is the setting for 2 channel PCM. On Passport, the choices are "Dolby Digital" and " 2 Channel Only".

For those fine folks who replied to my audio settings question.. thank you.
I guess I'll try "Other" at first. My thinking is that while "Dolby Digital" would be fine if you're watching something presented in Dolby Digital, you may get cut-outs, etc. if the show goes to stereo or mono for commercials. The receiver I will be installing can matrix whatever the source into ProLogicIIx (or whatever it's called)

I'm keeping the HDMI connected to the Pio so that when I or my g/f wants to listen without the receiver we can just change the audio setting on the 8300HDC.

I sincerely thank you for your help!

Skid

What is going on is that Scientific Atlanta made a choice that only one digital-out format can be passed out of the cable box to cost-reduce the box. That means that if your TV has indicated that it cannot process Dolby Digital, the box will then decompress the Dolby Digital for you and then output PCM (pulse coded modulation) audio, which is basically decompressed audio. The problem is that PCM takes up much more throughput, so the cable box must convert 5.1-channel Dolby Digital to 2-channel PCM audio to make it fit within its throughput budget. It then sends it out the HDMI port, the TOSLINK port, and the S/PDIF port. Navigator and Passport allows you to override this, but that means that the TV will either put out garbage audio or no audio at all because it cannot understand Dolby Digital.Sorry, but appears that your theory that this 5.1 issue is a hardware issue is incorrect. I have a SA8300HD running SARA 1.89.17.1. With that, I definitely can have 2.0 audio running into the TV (a Sony 55A3000) while at the same time sending 5.1 to the Surround sound receiver (optical in this case, but I had it working that way too with S/PDIF). That establishes that the HARDWARE is indeed capable of supplying 5.1 and 2.0 at the same time.

To double check, I just played back a recording of INHD tune up, which has a 5.1 channel test and verified 5.1 from surround sound and 2.0 (5.0 channels matrixed to the TV, don't know about the 0.1 as the TV speakers can't reproduce the LFE)

Sorry, but appears that your theory that this 5.1 issue is a hardware issue is incorrect. I have a SA8300HD running SARA 1.89.17.1. With that, I definitely can have 2.0 audio running into the TV (a Sony 55A3000) while at the same time sending 5.1 to the Surround sound receiver (optical in this case, but I had it working that way too with S/PDIF). That establishes that the HARDWARE is indeed capable of supplying 5.1 and 2.0 at the same time.

To double check, I just played back a recording of INHD tune up, which has a 5.1 channel test and verified 5.1 from surround sound and 2.0 (5.0 channels matrixed to the TV, don't know about the 0.1 as the TV speakers can't reproduce the LFE)

Maybe you have an earlier revision of the 8300HD before it got cost-reduced. Scientific-Atlanta's 8300HD setup guide (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/userguidepdfs/4003986.pdf) on page 11 or 17, depending on how you define the pagination of this PDF document, states that this is not the case. The same thing can be found at Scientific-Atlanta's 8300HDC setup guide (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/userguidepdfs/4013171.pdf) on page 12 or 17.

Another person might want the TV to do all the scaling and does not mind resolution switching.

Except that different TVs can be VERY different in how fast they switch. I have tested this with 2 different TVs with the same DVR STB (8300HD), software (Passport) cable SYSTEM (TWC-NYC), even coming from the same street node. BOTH TVs ARE 40" HD LCD units. One switches very fast, the other far, far slower.

I'm a believer in having the TV do the scaling, and happen to have the fast switcher.

PLUS, the ONLY way for me to consistently get black sidebars is to make sure the STB is NOT converting all signals to a single standard.

Maybe you have an earlier revision of the 8300HD before it got cost-reduced. Scientific-Atlanta's 8300HD setup guide (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/userguidepdfs/4003986.pdf) on page 11 or 17, depending on how you define the pagination of this PDF document, states that this is not the case. The same thing can be found at Scientific-Atlanta's 8300HDC setup guide (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/userguidepdfs/4013171.pdf) on page 12 or 17.Maybe, my SA8300HD is fairly old. But I don't think that cost reduction is at work here as the same statements are there on all revisions of the SA documentation (including revision A from Jan 2005). I suspect that what really is going on is that my TV (A Sony KDS-55A3000 which has a brand new chassis design) is willing to accept 5.1, so does not signal the SA8300HD to send 2.0. My previous TV had a DVI input, so audio was not part of the equation.

I just tried another experiment, and fed a 5.1 program (the INHD Audio Test) through HDMI to the TV, and monitored the digital out from the TV on my Yamaha. It was apparently converted to 2.0 in the TV, because that was what was sent out, yet when I switched the receiver to the optical out from the 8300 it was 5.1. The TV output was clearly matrixed 2.0, because the center was where it should be and the L & R surrounds appeared in the rear (though not as discrete L rear and R rear channels).

Bottom line: it is highly dependent on the TV, and this TV ability to accept 5.1 may be new (the new Sony chassis are among the first to fully support all the video features of HDMI 1.3 spec).

Maybe, my SA8300HD is fairly old. But I don't think that cost reduction is at work here as the same statements are there on all revisions of the SA documentation (including revision A from Jan 2005). I suspect that what really is going on is that my TV (A Sony KDS-55A3000 which has a brand new chassis design) is willing to accept 5.1, so does not signal the SA8300HD to send 2.0. My previous TV had a DVI input, so audio was not part of the equation.

I just tried another experiment, and fed a 5.1 program (the INHD Audio Test) through HDMI to the TV, and monitored the digital out from the TV on my Yamaha. It was apparently converted to 2.0 in the TV, because that was what was sent out, yet when I switched the receiver to the optical out from the 8300 it was 5.1. The TV output was clearly matrixed 2.0, because the center was where it should be and the L & R surrounds appeared in the rear (though not as discrete L rear and R rear channels).

Bottom line: it is highly dependent on the TV, and this TV ability to accept 5.1 may be new (the new Sony chassis are among the first to fully support all the video features of HDMI 1.3 spec).

TV's ability to accept 5.1 may depend not only on the TV, but on which of the the TV inputs we are talking about as well. My TV (Panasonic TH-58PZ700U) when connected with coaxial cable directly to the wall takes 5.1 from HD channels with no problems and passes it to its optical output; however, it immediately downconverts HDMI input to 2 channel stereo. I checked TV's manual, and it mentions that fact somewhere in the passing. Apparently, that may be extra circuitry where they decided to cut corners.

So, I have no choice but to connect DVR to my receiver directly in order to get 5.1 (my receiver is 10 years old - not fancy enough to run video through it), and give up the idea of using TV as an overall hub for DVR, DVD player and direct-from-wall cable (direct-from-wall cable is in case I want to watch a show live when both tuners in the DVR are recording something else). Now TV is the video hub, and the receiver is audio hub, but since it has only two digital inputs, direct-from-wall thing is analog (as I use that one the least). Not perfect, but I can live with that - not bugging me enough to spend money on a new receiver.

Have any Navigator folk received the update with the priority show feature and the this series in this time slot feature? SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Maybe, my SA8300HD is fairly old. But I don't think that cost reduction is at work here as the same statements are there on all revisions of the SA documentation (including revision A from Jan 2005). I suspect that what really is going on is that my TV (A Sony KDS-55A3000 which has a brand new chassis design) is willing to accept 5.1, so does not signal the SA8300HD to send 2.0. My previous TV had a DVI input, so audio was not part of the equation.

I just tried another experiment, and fed a 5.1 program (the INHD Audio Test) through HDMI to the TV, and monitored the digital out from the TV on my Yamaha. It was apparently converted to 2.0 in the TV, because that was what was sent out, yet when I switched the receiver to the optical out from the 8300 it was 5.1. The TV output was clearly matrixed 2.0, because the center was where it should be and the L & R surrounds appeared in the rear (though not as discrete L rear and R rear channels).

Bottom line: it is highly dependent on the TV, and this TV ability to accept 5.1 may be new (the new Sony chassis are among the first to fully support all the video features of HDMI 1.3 spec).

Actually, protocols generally state what can be accepted instead of what cannot be accepted. Therefore, the TV is probably telling your box that it can handle Dolby Digital and PCM, so the box chooses to pass the Dolby Digital through.

There is a reason for this. If choices must be proposed by the receiving side, then any unknown or unsuitable choices are implicitly denied without action from the receiving side because they simply will not be proposed to the sending side, causing it to choose from the choices the receiving side stated that it can understand. If choices must be denied by the receiving side, a newer device might send the older device something that the older device did not know about and therefore could not deny because it cannot deny anything it does not know about.

Actually, protocols generally state what can be accepted instead of what cannot be accepted. Therefore, the TV is telling your box that it can handle Dolby Digital, so the box passes the Dolby Digital through.Yes, makes perfect sense.

There is a reason for this. If choices must be proposed by the receiving side, then any unknown or unsuitable choices are implicitly denied without action from the receiving side because they simply will not be proposed to the sending side, causing it to choose from the choices the receiving side stated that it can understand. If choices must be denied by the receiving side, a newer device might send the older device something that the older device did not know about and therefore could not deny because it cannot deny anything it does not know about.So? When talking about "understanding" we are talking about software aren't we? Not limitations of the hardware. My experiences are with SARA (created by SA), not by third party software (created by someone else).

Yes, makes perfect sense.

So? When talking about "understanding" we are talking about software aren't we? Not limitations of the hardware. My experiences are with SARA (created by SA), not by third party software (created by someone else).

We are talking about HDMI here, which is technically a network protocol and a bundle of wires this protocol runs on top of that connect two devices together. Therefore, this is a combination of hardware and software. For example, one TV might have the CPU horsepower or the hardware to handle Dolby Digital. However, the software to do this is not yet finished when the TV ships. Therefore, the choices currently proposed do not include Dolby Digital. However, a firmware update later enables Dolby Digital reception, causing the list of accepted sound formats to include Dolby Digital. This process means that hardware and software must work together on both ends to make this protocol work.

Since Navigator is aware that Scientific-Atlanta's boxes cannot output Dolby Digital when downmixing audio to 2-channel PCM, it allows the user to override the HDMI protocol. However, different TVs might react differently to this behavior because this most definitely violates the HDMI protocol. Some well-designed televisions might become silent. Others might produce noise that must be muted. Still others might blue screen or crash, forcing you to hook up an analog connection to allow you to reset the digital connection to the HDMI default.

Computer protocols straddle the barrier between hardware and software. If either hardware or software fails on either side, you can be sunk depending on the other side's error tolerance.

Navigator rollout update:

Just heard from a poster on the HDTV Milwaukee Forum who had called about the "Channel Not Avaliable" bug and customary reboot for his box, that while speaking to the CSR, she said that primarily the Pioneer boxes are being updated in my area and that the SA boxes may not be completed until March. I am assuming that this includes DVR model boxes.

This is a far cry from an e-mail that a user got stating that Navigator would be rolled out to our Milwaukee division by 12/31/07! Some areas with Pioneer boxes got updated mid-December, so IF the info is accurate, (and with TWC, who knows?) they are still doing the Pioneer boxes in my area.

I commented on the Milwaukee TV forum what is interesting is that they are doing the oldest, Pioneer, low, memory boxes now. If Navigator can work on those low memory boxes, I have CAUTIOUS optimism that the DVR transition may not be so bad. (Knock on wood.) I think it would be very interesting if the integrated C-boxes are a main culprit in all of this. But Navigator working on a low memory Pioneer box, has to be surprising, to say the least!

I wonder how long it takes them to do a box upgrade? Perhaps they are being cautious with the rollout in my division, which is a good thing. But I think what would make many of us feel better is learning about a problem free or near problem free Navigator IPG on a non-C DVR box. If they have to do this upgrade, going a model at a time as way better than what they did in Lincoln Nebraska with their blanket roll-out to all boxes regardless of make/model number!

Jack

Navigator rollout update:

Just heard from a poster on the HDTV Milwaukee Forum who had called about the "Channel Not Avaliable" bug and customary reboot for his box, that while speaking to the CSR, she said that primarily the Pioneer boxes are being updated in my area and that the SA boxes may not be completed until March. I am assuming that this includes DVR model boxes.

This is a far cry from an e-mail that a user got stating that Navigator would be rolled out to our Milwaukee division by 12/31/07! Some areas with Pioneer boxes got updated mid-December, so IF the info is accurate, (and with TWC, who knows?) they are still doing the Pioneer boxes in my area.

I commented on the Milwaukee TV forum what is interesting is that they are doing the oldest, Pioneer, low, memory boxes now. If Navigator can work on those low memory boxes, I have CAUTIOUS optimism that the DVR transition may not be so bad. (Knock on wood.) I think it would be very interesting if the integrated C-boxes are a main culprit in all of this. But Navigator working on a low memory Pioneer box, has to be surprising, to say the least!

I wonder how long it takes them to do a box upgrade? Perhaps they are being cautious with the rollout in my division, which is a good thing. But I think what would make many of us feel better is learning about a problem free or near problem free Navigator IPG on a non-C DVR box. If they have to do this upgrade, going a model at a time as way better than what they did in Lincoln Nebraska with their blanket roll-out to all boxes regardless of make/model number!

Jack

I have also e-mailed TWC asking about what this guide will do that Passport can not. (Aside from the known bugs that they are trying to work out, with only limited success.) I also asked when Navigator is expected to be rolled out to existing DVR boxes in my area. (Metro-Milwaukee, WI) I want to see if I get the same March date that was answered by a CSR.

Jack

...when Navigator is expected to be rolled out to existing DVR boxes in my area. (Metro-Milwaukee, WI)...

Jack

I dare say the answer is "When you LEAST expect it, OR when you have the maximum amount of recorded content that can be deleted, whichever gives you a worse experience."

I mean there IS a reason someone calls them Crime Warner!

Guess I'm lucky... made it to 2008 in Kansas City area and still running on Passport :D

AT&T just installed a VRAD down the street so I'm easily under 1000ft. Now I just have to hope AT&T upgrades their service to be able to handle more than 1HD stream and tweaks/upgrades their HD encoders to look good... I think I'm asking for too much ;)

So in the meantime I'll keep my fingers crossed that Navigator gets out of beta before it makes it to me...

On the other hand... it's pretty laughable how many pieces of literature I have received from TWC /w timeframes of when I was suppose to get "upgraded" to Navigator... LOL... It's been at least 3 time frames now...

I commented on the Milwaukee TV forum what is interesting is that they are doing the oldest, Pioneer, low, memory boxes now. If Navigator can work on those low memory boxes, I

These Pioneer box aren't DVR's. Therefore the software footprint would be much smaller since there would be no need for scheduling /recording code. So less memory and less CPU cycles are needed. Also less code, less area for bugs to occur in.

Hi, I'm both new here and new to having an HDTV with an HD DVR. For the previous year, I had digital cable with the SA8300 DVR box running Passport/Echo. A couple of weeks ago, I bought my HDTV and received the "new" SA8300 HD"C" box running Navigator/Mystro.

All I can say is I'm seriously disappointed with the loss of certain key features (especially in the area of series recording). I don't really care for the "look & feel" of the new guide or even the remote for that matter (specifically the round arrow buttons). And the whole system seems very slow. I probably could have saved a bunch of setup time too if I'd been given any sort of documentation with this box from TWC. Apparently they've mucked with it enough that the standard manual from Scientific Atlanta is useless.

I'm sure some of you really early adopters went through way more growing pains, but this has seriously been disappointing after having looked forward to moving to HD.

Hi, I'm both new here and new to having an HDTV with an HD DVR. For the previous year, I had digital cable with the SA8300 DVR box running Passport/Echo. A couple of weeks ago, I bought my HDTV and received the "new" SA8300 HD"C" box running Navigator/Mystro.

All I can say is I'm seriously disappointed with the loss of certain key features (especially in the area of series recording). I don't really care for the "look & feel" of the new guide or even the remote for that matter (specifically the round arrow buttons). And the whole system seems very slow. I probably could have saved a bunch of setup time too if I'd been given any sort of documentation with this box from TWC. Apparently they've mucked with it enough that the standard manual from Scientific Atlanta is useless.

I'm sure some of you really early adopters went through way more growing pains, but this has seriously been disappointing after having looked forward to moving to HD.

Hey Robotron!

Welcome to the forum!!! Could you put your city/state location or the closest proximity to it in your profile? This helps us when we discuss Navigator troubleshooting issues.

Jack

Hi, I'm both new here and new to having an HDTV with an HD DVR. For the previous year, I had digital cable with the SA8300 DVR box running Passport/Echo. A couple of weeks ago, I bought my HDTV and received the "new" SA8300 HD"C" box running Navigator/Mystro.

All I can say is I'm seriously disappointed with the loss of certain key features (especially in the area of series recording). I don't really care for the "look & feel" of the new guide or even the remote for that matter (specifically the round arrow buttons). And the whole system seems very slow. I probably could have saved a bunch of setup time too if I'd been given any sort of documentation with this box from TWC. Apparently they've mucked with it enough that the standard manual from Scientific Atlanta is useless.

I'm sure some of you really early adopters went through way more growing pains, but this has seriously been disappointing after having looked forward to moving to HD.

Welcome to the "Navigator Experience". Things don't get any better, usually they get worse. You're in for missed recordings, lots of freezing up and reboots. Plus, the Navigator menus are designed wrong, so many features from Passport are gone.

Can you post a brand/model number or picture of this new remote? I haven't heard of a remote with round arrow buttons before.

I wish you luck with Navigator and welcome to the Navigator fourm. Please take Jack's advice and post your location. It's important info since different areas are using different versions of Navigator and overall performance depends on location.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

Would it?

Cisco is killing the Scientific Atlanta brand.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/05/cisco-is-killing-the-scientific-atlanta-brand/

Does this mean Cisco will develop its own software for the new boxes? That could be interesting! However, it seems to this point that no matter how bad, unfunctional, and trouble ridden Navigator is; Time Warner is sticking by it. I would think that if TWC was going to scrap Navigator, they would have done it by now.

I read the article. I see they took a shot at SARA in the article. Guess they've never experienced Navigator! If/when my area gets SDV, I wish they would scrap Navigator and just go with SARA. It would be a big shock if Time Warner get the newer version of Passport.

Welcome to the "Navigator Experience". Things don't get any better, usually they get worse. You're in for missed recordings, lots of freezing up and reboots. Plus, the Navigator menus are designed wrong, so many features from Passport are gone.

Can you post a brand/model number or picture of this new remote? I haven't heard of a remote with round arrow buttons before.

I wish you luck with Navigator and welcome to the Navigator fourm. Please take Jack's advice and post your location. It's important info since different areas are using different versions of Navigator and overall performance depends on location.

Sorry about not thinking about setting the location. I've updated it now.

As for the remote, maybe my description of the "round arrow buttons" wasn't the best wording. What it is is a single large round button with Select in the middle. If you don't hit it quite right, then rather than moving right or left, you might actually get up or down. The little foldout booklet I got with it says CLIKR-5 and UR5U-8800L-TWR if that helps.
Looks like this is it:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=125780&page_number=1&image_number=2

So far I haven't had any real issues with the DVR itself regarding losing recordings or rebooting, but I've heard the horror stories. My only complaints so far are basically just Mystro related. I really do miss the Passport features. I know some people in the area still have the old 8300HD DVR running Passport. Wish I'd gotten one of those, but I guess Navigator/Mystro and the 8300HDC are the "wave of the future". :(
And is there any doc for features? I've heard of a 15-minute fast-forward, but I've not found anything to achieve that.

BTW, is there somewhere to go to see diagnostic type information about the DVR? On the old box, there would be a specific channel with the information, but many of the things I've tired don't work. The cable guy was here recently (because of RoadRunner) and did check signal strength on the TV, but I wasn't home and my wife said she thought he had to push something on the back of the actual box.

...

And is there any doc for features? I've heard of a 15-minute fast-forward, but I've not found anything to achieve that.

BTW, is there somewhere to go to see diagnostic type information about the DVR? On the old box, there would be a specific channel with the information, but many of the things I've tired don't work. The cable guy was here recently (because of RoadRunner) and did check signal strength on the TV, but I wasn't home and my wife said she thought he had to push something on the back of the actual box.

Documentation is sorely missing. There's some on TWC web site, but not nearly enough (basically explains stuff you can easily figure out yourself, but does not explain stuff that is not so self-explanatory, like HDMI settings, for example). May be useful to go through this thread and look for stuff you are interested (you'll have to jump over a lot of whining, largely from people who do not use it). You can also post questions, somebody usually answers. Some of the features of Passport are plain missing; some features may still be there, but accessed differently; also, some features may be replaced by something else, not necessarily equivalent, but not necessarily worse, either.

15 minute fast forward you get when you press and hold FF button; you can go backwards 15 minutes similarly holding Rewind button.

To get diagnostic screen: press and hold Select button for a while, until a mail icon flashes on the box itself (not on the screen). Then press down arrow. That's software diagnostic, will not give you signal strength; useful to find out your version number, for example.

May be useful to go through this thread and look for stuff you are interested (you'll have to jump over a lot of whining, largely from people who do not use it).

Yeah, I noticed. ;)

I found the current 100 pages a bit daunting to go through (plus it goes back to 2006 and I didn't want to get side-tracked by out-of-date information), but I did go back and read the last 10 pages - which included the answers to my questions. But thanks for re-answering them anyway!

So what are the HDMI settings you mentioned? When I first got the box I had a couple of odd problems but somehow managed to clear them up (possibly because I pulled the plug a couple of times and didn't realize that boot up could actually take that long). I know the SA docs mention being able to identify the supported formats using the VOL/CHANNEL +/- buttons, but that's another one of those things that doesn't work (presumably because TWC disabled it?). And I read a post where someone had the multiple images (like 4 or 6 sets) and I had that once too after watching a DVD and trying to switch inputs (from the component connection back to HDMI). I haven't watched a DVD since, so not sure if that problem is still there.

May be useful to go through this thread and look for stuff you are interested (you'll have to jump over a lot of whining, largely from people who do not use it)..

Just for the record, I HAVE used Navigator and am one of the lucky few that was able to upgrade to an 8300HD w/ Passport when I returned my HDC box.


So what are the HDMI settings you mentioned? When I first got the box I had a couple of odd problems but somehow managed to clear them up (possibly because I pulled the plug a couple of times and didn't realize that boot up could actually take that long). I know the SA docs mention being able to identify the supported formats using the VOL/CHANNEL +/- buttons, but that's another one of those things that doesn't work (presumably because TWC disabled it?). And I read a post where someone had the multiple images (like 4 or 6 sets) and I had that once too after watching a DVD and trying to switch inputs (from the component connection back to HDMI). I haven't watched a DVD since, so not sure if that problem is still there.

*The VOL/CHANNEL +/- thing that is described in the Operating Instructions does not work on Navigator or Passport. It only works on Scientific Atlanta's SARA software. The manual is printed assuming the cableco will use SARA but unfortunately TW took the low road and went with an in-house application, leading to confusion. That's probably why some customers don't get the SA Users Guide and other info with their box.

*As for the HDMI settings, unlike Passport, Navigator DOES NOT let you choose outputs(i.e. 1080i only). Navigator outputs on HDMI based on native resolution. I've read about the picture getting stuck on a white screen because of this.

*Multiple images? I would like to hear more about that one.

...

So what are the HDMI settings you mentioned? When I first got the box I had a couple of odd problems but somehow managed to clear them up (possibly because I pulled the plug a couple of times and didn't realize that boot up could actually take that long). I know the SA docs mention being able to identify the supported formats using the VOL/CHANNEL +/- buttons, but that's another one of those things that doesn't work (presumably because TWC disabled it?). And I read a post where someone had the multiple images (like 4 or 6 sets) and I had that once too after watching a DVD and trying to switch inputs (from the component connection back to HDMI). I haven't watched a DVD since, so not sure if that problem is still there.

One is that if you want the sound sent through HDMI, you need to explicitely enable that (it is not enabled by default; it is under Quick Settings/Devices).

The other would be (and this one is a source of much confusion) that, when connected through HDMI, the box will communicate with your TV (or whatever you have on the other side) and pass through every resolution that TV replies it can handle - you have no choice in the matter, i.e. you can not tell it to pass through only some resolutions and upconvert or downconvert others; you can do that with component output, though. If you turn your TV on first, then DVR, you'll see something like "can't be set when connected through HDMI", but if you turn the DVR on first, then TV, it will let you get in the menus, and give you impression you are setting resolutions DVR can output, but, no, it will do what it does anyway.

Another fun one (not HDMI related) is Quick Settings/Devices/Audio Range.

...
May be useful to go through this thread and look for stuff you are interested (you'll have to jump over a lot of whining, largely from people who do not use it).
...


Just for the record, I HAVE used Navigator and am one of the lucky few that was able to upgrade to an 8300HD w/ Passport when I returned my HDC box.
...


Good for you. By the way, I have 1) said "do not use", not "have never used" 2) not mentioned you personally, but if you recognized yourself as a whiner, I won't quarrel with that.

Another fun one (not HDMI related) is Quick Settings/Devices/Audio Range.

I remember the "Devices" menu. What bad labeling! I had to find the DD/PCM output setting because the thing comes pre-set to output 480i only(on component) and PCM 48 audio. Why an HD box would do that is beyond me. All I got was a "the menus look different" as the cable tech ran out the door. I didn't catch the picture/sound issue until later because it took an hour on the phone w/customer service to get the box activated. Thank God it was him, not me! ;)

Good for you. By the way, I have 1) said "do not use", not "have never used" 2) not mentioned you personally, but if you recognized yourself as a whiner, I won't quarrel with that.

I'm not a whiner, I'm voicing my opinion and story to make others aware of waht they're in for. (There is a thin line btw the two, I'll admit that)
I am p!$$ed that I spent $6.95 for two months(I did get DVR comped for the first month b/c my 8000HD didn't work for a week while waiting for service) on a hideous, complicated UI, a DVR that doesn't do what it's supposed to do(recording bugs, deleted shows, audio dropouts) and all the signal problems. I was watching the back TV or using my QAM tuner alot.

I've had a 8300HD/Passport for almost a month. No recording issues, no reboots and not even any macroblocking or freeze ups(except the occasional blocking, but I think it was the channel, my local CBS)

I'll voice my opinion loudly and share my horror story with anyone who is interested. That's all we can really do is share our navigator experiences and hope they don't fall on deaf ears at Time Warner. With Navigator "upgrades":rolleyes: imminent, we're in for a wild ride.

I'll never think Navigator is good and I won't adapt to it. I think it's absolutely disgusting that this product ever made it onto the market. It's a slap in the face to the people who fork over tons of money a month for HDTV and a DVR and end up not getting those services in return. It's absolutely disgusting that this company to throw a tested, reliable product like Passport under the bus because they don't want to pay the fee for it. This is a perfect example of greed and Big Business worshiping The Almighty Dollar.

I don't know about anyone else's area, but in my area, Time Warner has been reliable for the most part. The only problems have been a lack of programming and prices, but the service was dependable. I haven't had many issues up until Navigator. They've really made some asshat decisions this year. I understand that OCAP and SDV ar necessary and a firmware that supports these is necessary, but choosing Navigator was the dumb move. To take a product that failed the first time and deploy it on the new boxes and expect to "upgrade" everyone to this and make it the new standard; are you kidding? The real insult is in NE Ohio they raised the price of DVR a buck on the eve of this Navigator rollout that's imminent.

I really don't count on Time Warner keeping Passport when the contract is up. But i still think Navigator should be shelved PERMANENTLY. Go with SARA. SARA supports SDV, OCAP and it works. I was checking out the SA website and looking at a SARA DVR manual. It didn't look to shabby, a step up over Navigator.

http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/consumers/userguidepdfs/4004007.pdf

So, for now I'll live on borrowed time with my fantastic, properly working Passport box and make sure not to get too backed up with saved shows if or when the Navigator Gremlins invade my box and screw things up. And I'll hold on tight to my dreams of Time Warner getting the new version of Passport and upgrading us to SDV in my area, adding tons of new HD channels. Ahhhh, dreams in HD, that's all we can do. :p :D

Thank you for listening to my rant. Here's to more HD and better service in '08! :D Happy HDTV Viewing to all! :D :)

Just for the record, I HAVE used Navigator and am one of the lucky few that was able to upgrade to an 8300HD w/ Passport when I returned my HDC box.



*The VOL/CHANNEL +/- thing that is described in the Operating Instructions does not work on Navigator or Passport. It only works on Scientific Atlanta's SARA software. The manual is printed assuming the cableco will use SARA but unfortunately TW took the low road and went with an in-house application, leading to confusion. That's probably why some customers don't get the SA Users Guide and other info with their box.

*As for the HDMI settings, unlike Passport, Navigator DOES NOT let you choose outputs(i.e. 1080i only). Navigator outputs on HDMI based on native resolution. I've read about the picture getting stuck on a white screen because of this.

*Multiple images? I would like to hear more about that one.

Yeah, I knew about TWC changing the "native" software, hence the SA manual was useless. What I can't understand is why if they do that, they don't provide a substitute manual rather than leaving everyone to figure everything out on their own. Like having to set the audio to HDMI. How unnerving for a new customer to plug in their equipment only to get a picture with no sound. That one seems so common they ought to have a one page warning in large text taped to the top of the box with the instructions on what to do!

As for the resolution, thanks for the info. I probably picked this up from someone using the component connection without thinking about it being different than someone using HDMI. Again, when a picture gets "stuck" you'd think a resolution might be disabled. Given nothing else to work with, I try what the SA docs suggest. I imagine this was one of the times where my frustration finally led to unplugging the box and that ultimately fixed it.

As for the multiple images, at one point after having watched a DVD where the player is connected to AV1 using component cables, I switched back to the HDMI input. At this point, I believe the screen was broken up into 4 "blocks" (2 rows of 2 columns) and each block was showing the same current channel. Each one seemed to be a slightly different hue (one being noticably purple). It almost felt like I was getting one image for each component line plus a "merged" image. I highly doubt that was actually the case, but since I was just switching back from a component connection, that was my reaction. I'm sure this was another problem I ultimately resolved by unplugging the box.
I haven't tried watching a DVD since, but I did switch to the AV1 input and back where the DVD player/recorder was just passing through current channel from the DVR and that went fine.

Thank you for listening to my rant. Here's to more HD and better service in '08! :D Happy HDTV Viewing to all! :D :)

Aside from a couple of line signal issues over the years, I've been satisfied with TWC. I won't claim to know their business model enough to know whether they should just suck it up and continue to pay for Passport or SARA versus going with their own in-house software. However, there is no excuse for withdrawing features that people have come to like. The new features that people have pointed out are nice, but that's not a pass for other existing features not being there. If you have to re-up the "lease" for a little while longer while fully baking Navigator, you do it. I realize (now) some issues are the hardware itself, but there are features I sorely miss and that's definitely on Navigator. I won't go so far as to say I'll never like or accept Navigator - it's software, it's fixable. It's just extremely unfortunate it was forced on people that had grown to like a certain set of features that are no longer there.

Is there a forum somewhere that TWC supports where they take constructive criticism and give us a glimmer of hope that they understand the deficiencies and intend to fix it? That's my current dream.

Yeah, I knew about TWC changing the "native" software, hence the SA manual was useless. What I can't understand is why if they do that, they don't provide a substitute manual rather than leaving everyone to figure everything out on their own. Like having to set the audio to HDMI. How unnerving for a new customer to plug in their equipment only to get a picture with no sound. That one seems so common they ought to have a one page warning in large text taped to the top of the box with the instructions on what to do!

...


Writing a manual would actually require some effort; besides they expect that they will change software periodically. Now, every software company is in the same boat, and, it goes without saying, most provide manuals, and update them. TWC is not a software company, and they apparently don't quite know how to do software properly.

There's also the thing that they are catering to lowest common denominator - people who have trouble connecting their stuff. They give you component cables with the box, and expect you to use it (or for their tech who came to your place to use it). Their line of thinking is probably: "people who want to pay for their own HDMI cable and install it are minority, so who cares - they probably use internet and will eventually stumble into the solution, or they will call us and we'll tell them - cheaper than manual". :mad:

Jim,

It actually says something like "Enhanced - Press Select" and then displays a listbox containing only one item, the name of the HD channel, but implying that maybe someday there could be other enhanced capabilities besides HD (holograms, smell-a-vision, etc.:) ).

For example, if I am in the channel guide and I select TBS, the little window "Enhanced - Press Select" will pop up, then I hit Sel, then Right Arrow, get a window with TBSHD in it, the Sel to go to TBSHD. Something like that. ;)

My diagnostic channel 611 says Stack version = Axiom 1.2.34.1 and ODN version = 2.4.4_2. I don't know how to get to any other screens.

-Marty

This doesn't seem to be available here. I also don't get anything on channel 611, but can get diagnostic info by holding the SEL key followed by the down arrow. I didn't see anything that looked like a "stack" version, but my ODN version = 2.4.5_4 2007/08/29

Aside from a couple of line signal issues over the years, I've been satisfied with TWC. I won't claim to know their business model enough to know whether they should just suck it up and continue to pay for Passport or SARA versus going with their own in-house software. However, there is no excuse for withdrawing features that people have come to like. The new features that people have pointed out are nice, but that's not a pass for other existing features not being there. If you have to re-up the "lease" for a little while longer while fully baking Navigator, you do it. I realize (now) some issues are the hardware itself, but there are features I sorely miss and that's definitely on Navigator. I won't go so far as to say I'll never like or accept Navigator - it's software, it's fixable. It's just extremely unfortunate it was forced on people that had grown to like a certain set of features that are no longer there.

Is there a forum somewhere that TWC supports where they take constructive criticism and give us a glimmer of hope that they understand the deficiencies and intend to fix it? That's my current dream.

That's more of catering to lowest common denominator. The most basic features are there; they figure out that people who used other features are a minority, plus there's also thinking that a lot of the Navigator's users will be new DVR users, so no big deal, they won't know what they're missing. Maybe if they get a massive email campaign from unhappy converted Passport users, they'll add (or speed up adding) those features to Navigator. There was some mention of adding time-slot recording to Navigator, but I have yet to see it (not in 2.4.5_4).
What feature(s) you miss the most, maybe Navigator has a workaround for them, and due to the manual situation, you'll never know.

Their line of thinking is probably: "people who want to pay for their own HDMI cable and install it are minority, so who cares - they probably use internet and will eventually stumble into the solution, or they will call us and we'll tell them - cheaper than manual". :mad:

Yup, customer service is hard work. When I picked up my box, I asked about an HDMI cable and knew the answer going in would be you provide your own. I told them to keep the component cable because I wouldn't be using it. At that point, saying "oh well, then you'll want to know about this" and handing me a simple one page sheet about setting the audio would have been useful. Not everything needs to be a big manual. How long would it take to write that one page? 10 minutes? You ask someone if they intend to hook it up using HDMI and if so, hand them the page. If a service tech brings the box and doesn't wait around for activation, he could leave you that page too. I got better doc for the remote, but I guess that didn't require any work on their part.

That's more of catering to lowest common denominator. The most basic features are there; they figure out that people who used other features are a minority, plus there's also thinking that a lot of the Navigator's users will be new DVR users, so no big deal, they won't know what they're missing. Maybe if they get a massive email campaign from unhappy converted Passport users, they'll add (or speed up adding) those features to Navigator. There was some mention of adding time-slot recording to Navigator, but I have yet to see it (not in 2.4.5_4).
What feature(s) you miss the most, maybe Navigator has a workaround for them, and due to the manual situation, you'll never know.

Interestingly enough it is exactly the time slot (and specific channel) for series recording that I miss the most. The "best" workaround I could come up with was to make sure I only record New episodes. But that's simply not sufficient. There are some series I simply cannot set a series recording for because it would fill the hard drive in no time at all.

I'm still getting used to Search. It's more "different" than "less", so I'm reserving judgment there. I do miss the feature where as you type, it eliminates letters and I think the new keyboard UI is less user friendly. I also think returning results that include Pay channels and On Demand stuff makes the result set a bit overwhelming to go through. Options to include or exclude those would be great and can be on by default if they like.

Overall, my initial reaction is that there's a LOT more there in the guide now, but that sometimes, less is more. There are multiple ways to reach the same thing which can sometimes be confusing. I'm actually a software/UI guy by trade, so I do notice these things. Maybe the Windows menu approach of standard and enhanced menus would help the initial experience not feel so overwhelming. Not sure if it's accurate, but my initial reaction to the guide was not that the font was bad, but rather that the guide didn't seem very space efficient. My perception at least is that the List (recordings) used to show more information on the screen than it does now, but then I have a larger screen so that could be an illusion on my part.

I understand Passport is the same as Navigator with regard to leveraging the 16:9 format, but that's an area I'd like to see improved. Specifically, don't just stretch the guide. A friend of mine has DTV and said he gets to see up to 3 hours thanks to the extra space rather than just stretching the 1.5 hour view. The lame positioning of PIP has been noted here already too. I found it virtually worthless because of it's placement.

I completely agree that I'm in the minority having had both Passport and now Navigator, but I'm no less of a customer that they should always aim to satisfy.

Interestingly enough it is exactly the time slot (and specific channel) for series recording that I miss the most. The "best" workaround I could come up with was to make sure I only record New episodes. But that's simply not sufficient. There are some series I simply cannot set a series recording for because it would fill the hard drive in no time at all.

I'm still getting used to Search. It's more "different" than "less", so I'm reserving judgment there. I do miss the feature where as you type, it eliminates letters and I think the new keyboard UI is less user friendly. I also think returning results that include Pay channels and On Demand stuff makes the result set a bit overwhelming to go through. Options to include or exclude those would be great and can be on by default if they like.

Overall, my initial reaction is that there's a LOT more there in the guide now, but that sometimes, less is more. There are multiple ways to reach the same thing which can sometimes be confusing. I'm actually a software/UI guy by trade, so I do notice these things. Maybe the Windows menu approach of standard and enhanced menus would help the initial experience not feel so overwhelming. Not sure if it's accurate, but my initial reaction to the guide was not that the font was bad, but rather that the guide didn't seem very space efficient. My perception at least is that the List (recordings) used to show more information on the screen than it does now, but then I have a larger screen so that could be an illusion on my part.

I understand Passport is the same as Navigator with regard to leveraging the 16:9 format, but that's an area I'd like to see improved. Specifically, don't just stretch the guide. A friend of mine has DTV and said he gets to see up to 3 hours thanks to the extra space rather than just stretching the 1.5 hour view. The lame positioning of PIP has been noted here already too. I found it virtually worthless because of it's placement.

I completely agree that I'm in the minority having had both Passport and now Navigator, but I'm no less of a customer that they should always aim to satisfy.

About time slot recording: actually, there are two distinct cases here, one that Navigator handles worse (or, should I say, does not handle at all), and one that it handles better:

1) The show is a "news-type" show, i.e. a bunch of episodes a day, but each one is, technically speaking, different (even though the episodes from the same day are the same, or almost the same); the one I have to deal with is NFL Live.

Navigator does not handle this at all, and here you could really use time-slot thing. The best you can do is once a week go into Scheduled Recordings and delete the bunch of unwanted ones. Lame.

2) The show has a bunch of episodes per day, but only one (or a few) different ones. (SciFi Channel is full of those).

Navigator handles this better than time-slot recording can. It will automatically:
a) not record the same show twice, and
b) pick which airing to record aroound other things scheduled, to avoid conflicts; as you add other recordings, it will silently switch which airing to record.
This is, actually, the single best thing about Navigator. You don't have to worry if time slot changes or if there is a new conflict when you schedule something else. This does require the Channel Guide info to be correct (as far as identifying episodes). Seems to be for the shows I'm interested in.

...

I'm still getting used to Search. It's more "different" than "less", so I'm reserving judgment there. I do miss the feature where as you type, it eliminates letters and I think the new keyboard UI is less user friendly. I also think returning results that include Pay channels and On Demand stuff makes the result set a bit overwhelming to go through. Options to include or exclude those would be great and can be on by default if they like.

...


One of the things I'd really like to see is the ability to delete channels from both Guide and Search results; prime candidates would be channels I do not subscribe to, SD channels that have HD counterparts and On Demand/PPV; I'd also like to get rid of a whole bunch of channels I never look at, but get anyway (Hallmark, anywone?). Then, instead of over 1000, I'd have to look at 20 or so channels, and search would return so much fewer records, you could do real fancy stuff with it and it would still be fast.

No, I don't think I've found a decent box yet. #5 went for maybe 10 days without rebooting, then got into a daily reboot cycle, went 5 days without rebooting, now it's daily again.

The thing is it seems to reboot at generally the same time each day. Lately it seems to want to reboot during the 7pm news on 217 but also likes the 10am-11am slot. An earlier box favored 8am - 8:30am.

I found a thread a few days ago I think on AVS where a poster had tons of problems with TWC and the day he canceled his cable guy admitted they had picked him for some sort of testing. I'm starting to wonder if I'm being picked on.

Jim

Time for number 6. I've opened a ticket through the TW website to address box #5's reboots after it rebooted twice within 30 minutes. With the reboots I don't witness during the wee hours and those when I'm at work it's rebooting 3 to 5 times a day.

One of the things I'd really like to see is the ability to delete channels from both Guide and Search results; .

It was my understanding that it at least had the ability to build a list of 'favorite' channels in the guide - is that true? That is better than nothing.

xnappo

It was my understanding that it at least had the ability to build a list of 'favorite' channels in the guide - is that true? That is better than nothing.

xnappo

Yep, and you see favorites first, which is not too bad. But after them (and before them, as the guide is circular), you see all the others as well. I can live with that (although having non-favorites completely disappear would be better), but I'd really like to restrict Search to favorites, and that's impossible right now.

Time for number 6. I've opened a ticket through the TW website to address box #5's reboots after it rebooted twice within 30 minutes. With the reboots I don't witness during the wee hours and those when I'm at work it's rebooting 3 to 5 times a day.

You really got it bad. I hope this one works. You probably looked into this more than once, but maybe have them check signal strength again? The box, for some reason, requires much stronger signal than, say, a TV tuner.

2) The show has a bunch of episodes per day, but only one (or a few) different ones. (SciFi Channel is full of those).

This "hidden" feature I hadn't caught on to yet. That is cool (though I can imagine people being confused when the guide doesn't show the show they expected to be recording in red). They have to notice in the scheduled recordings that it chose another time slot. Guess that's why there's also a viewable log now. ;)

I'll have to test this a bit. A couple of things had concerned me:

1) We have the same effective channels multiple times. For example, the "normal" OTA ABC, a special digital SD ABC and the HD ABC. Since I didn't have the perception I could select a specific channel, I was concerned I'd get the same show from multiple channels. I guess it's the priority support that would allow me to ensure an HD version of the show isn't dropped in favor of an SD/OTA show in case of a conflict?

2) Some shows are on multiple networks. Law & Order, House and SoapNet (yeah, my wife watches a bunch of those) result in the same series appearing on multiple channels. I don't want to rely on "New" to handle this. I just want Law & Order on NBC and nevermind the ones on A&E.

Had a couple of more thoughts about things that don't seem as smooth as my previous standard digital with Passport. I'll apologize now if it's hardware rather than Navigator, but honestly, how would even a semi-experienced person know the difference?

1) This one is really bugging me. I hope the "Fast Forward Jump Back" described on the Nebraska site has simply not been made available here yet because if they think it's working, it's not even close. When I first got my digital DVR box to replace the VCR, I thought that had to have been one of the coolest features ever.

2) The remote is slow. Trying to change channels is the obvious one. When I press a number, there is a noticeable delay before you see it appear on the screen. In fact it's so bad that if you actually wait to see it, it usually changes the channel first! The remote needs to be more responsive and I think it could probably delay a bit longer before presuming you were done entering the channel number.

3) I'll presume this is more likely hardware and since it's HD specific, I have no basis of comparison withwhat Passport does. Changing between channels broadcast at a different format is awful. It takes around 3 seconds during which the screen goes black and it says "No video signal" on the screen. Very irritating.
Yesterday I also encountered something very odd a couple of times. I don't remember the exact message, but I was trying to change to a channel I know works, but got a message about it being an unsupported format or something like that. At that point I couldn't do anything - no guide, no channel changes, at least not right away. Apparently it "remembered" I was trying to change the channel and after a LONG delay (30-45 seconds maybe), the picture came back and I was on that new channel. After that, I seemed to be able to get back to the original channel I was trying to get to. Hope that explanation makes sense.

I guess what's frustrating to me is not knowing what features are there, which are planned (and when!) and not having an avenue to really report these experiences to TWC.

You really got it bad. I hope this one works. You probably looked into this more than once, but maybe have them check signal strength again? The box, for some reason, requires much stronger signal than, say, a TV tuner.

Yep, it's getting old. I've decided I've been too nice about this and I'm requesting a manager call me on this one, and I've requested a credit for my DVR service back to when I got my first HD box.

With box #4 my signal was checked and it was fine and when I had a problem about a year ago (can't remember if it was the phone or internet) they ran a new cable and checked everything out.

My neighbor across the street had a Direct TV truck in his driveway yesterday ... I think I'll go see what's been going on over there.

3) I'll presume this is more likely hardware and since it's HD specific, I have no basis of comparison withwhat Passport does. Changing between channels broadcast at a different format is awful. It takes around 3 seconds during which the screen goes black and it says "No video signal" on the screen. Very irritating.

You and I have the same TV. On SARA I have decided to disable all resolutions except 1080i and 720p. Not sure if you can do that on Navigator or not. This means that the box does the upconverting of 480i SD rather than the set... It does a good enough job for me though and decreases the resync time since it changes resolutions a lot less.

xnappo

This "hidden" feature I hadn't caught on to yet. That is cool (though I can imagine people being confused when the guide doesn't show the show they expected to be recording in red). They have to notice in the scheduled recordings that it chose another time slot. Guess that's why there's also a viewable log now. ;)

I'll have to test this a bit. A couple of things had concerned me:

1) We have the same effective channels multiple times. For example, the "normal" OTA ABC, a special digital SD ABC and the HD ABC. Since I didn't have the perception I could select a specific channel, I was concerned I'd get the same show from multiple channels. I guess it's the priority support that would allow me to ensure an HD version of the show isn't dropped in favor of an SD/OTA show in case of a conflict?

2) Some shows are on multiple networks. Law & Order, House and SoapNet (yeah, my wife watches a bunch of those) result in the same series appearing on multiple channels. I don't want to rely on "New" to handle this. I just want Law & Order on NBC and nevermind the ones on A&E.

Neither of those is an issue, due to a limitation (or a feature) of Navigator: all series recording is chanel-specific. Whatever channel you used to set up the recording is the only one it will look up to find the shows. Low tech but reliable way around the potential problems you mentioned. Another thing that is not clear at all and should be in a manual.

Note: "Scheduled Recordings" list is your friend. Any recording you schedule immediately updates this list, and you can check it right away to see if the correct stuff will get recorded.

Had a couple of more thoughts about things that don't seem as smooth as my previous standard digital with Passport. I'll apologize now if it's hardware rather than Navigator, but honestly, how would even a semi-experienced person know the difference?

1) This one is really bugging me. I hope the "Fast Forward Jump Back" described on the Nebraska site has simply not been made available here yet because if they think it's working, it's not even close. When I first got my digital DVR box to replace the VCR, I thought that had to have been one of the coolest features ever.

2) The remote is slow. Trying to change channels is the obvious one. When I press a number, there is a noticeable delay before you see it appear on the screen. In fact it's so bad that if you actually wait to see it, it usually changes the channel first! The remote needs to be more responsive and I think it could probably delay a bit longer before presuming you were done entering the channel number.

3) I'll presume this is more likely hardware and since it's HD specific, I have no basis of comparison withwhat Passport does. Changing between channels broadcast at a different format is awful. It takes around 3 seconds during which the screen goes black and it says "No video signal" on the screen. Very irritating.
Yesterday I also encountered something very odd a couple of times. I don't remember the exact message, but I was trying to change to a channel I know works, but got a message about it being an unsupported format or something like that. At that point I couldn't do anything - no guide, no channel changes, at least not right away. Apparently it "remembered" I was trying to change the channel and after a LONG delay (30-45 seconds maybe), the picture came back and I was on that new channel. After that, I seemed to be able to get back to the original channel I was trying to get to. Hope that explanation makes sense.

I guess what's frustrating to me is not knowing what features are there, which are planned (and when!) and not having an avenue to really report these experiences to TWC.

1) It does work, though it may not jump-back as much as you would like. I'd actually prefer none at all (messes up with my attempts to make a remote macro that simulates 30 second skip), but no go.

2) Mine is not slow that way, but "could probably delay a bit longer before presuming you were done entering the channel number" is definitely an issue, although I type numbers in channel guide only, never when watching something, so, for me, it will not switch to a wrong channel, just jump to wrong channel in channel guide.

3) This sounds like resolution-changing issue. You may be better off with component instead of HDMI and experiment a bit with allowed resolutions. I personally like the HDMI passs-through, because I think my TV does a better job upconverting than the box (and even if it were not like that, the TV, being 1080p, would still have to at least de-interlace). There is a second or two pause when changing to a channel with different resolution, but I can live with that. I mostly watch recorded stuff, and if I watch live, I pick something from the guide. It is not OK if you want to lean on channel up button and channel surf that way.
See also xnappo's post above.

You and I have the same TV. On SARA I have decided to disable all resolutions except 1080i and 720p. Not sure if you can do that on Navigator or not. This means that the box does the upconverting of 480i SD rather than the set... It does a good enough job for me though and decreases the resync time since it changes resolutions a lot less.

xnappo

From what I gathered here earlier, it's not possible to do that if you use the HDMI connection. Only if you use the component connection.

Neither of those is an issue, due to a limitation (or a feature) of Navigator: all series recording is chanel-specific. Whatever channel you used to set up the recording is the only one it will look up to find the shows. Low tech but reliable way around the potential problems you mentioned. Another thing that is not clear at all and should be in a manual.

Yeah, I actually just noticed that a little while ago. I was reviewing some of the programs I have in the series manager and noticed that it included the channel when you look at it with the INFO button.

I'm slowly catching on. ;)

2) Mine is not slow that way, but "could probably delay a bit longer before presuming you were done entering the channel number" is definitely an issue, although I type numbers in channel guide only, never when watching something, so, for me, it will not switch to a wrong channel, just jump to wrong channel in channel guide.

I've noticed that the remote response to entering numbers is a fair bit worse while viewing a channel than when in the guide.

And I'm bummed to hear about the fast forward jump back. It looked like it was trying to back up a bit, but like I said, it's not anywhere near as good at it as Passport was (for my responsiveness anyway). Being a UI guy, I'm all about options and customizations. Since everyone has a different reaction time, this would seem to be a good feature to allow for customization. I looked at the Nebraska site a bit more earlier and saw the banner duration settings, but apparently we don't have that one here yet. But it's the right idea.

I've noticed that the remote response to entering numbers is a fair bit worse while viewing a channel than when in the guide.

And I'm bummed to hear about the fast forward jump back. It looked like it was trying to back up a bit, but like I said, it's not anywhere near as good at it as Passport was (for my responsiveness anyway). Being a UI guy, I'm all about options and customizations. Since everyone has a different reaction time, this would seem to be a good feature to allow for customization. I looked at the Nebraska site a bit more earlier and saw the banner duration settings, but apparently we don't have that one here yet. But it's the right idea.

It jumps back about 10 seconds, but it seem to vary, maybe depends on the speed at which you FF.

I think that somewhere there (Nebraska, or one of their local sites, like Lincoln) they mentioned time-slot recording as well as a decent way for setting series priorities (now, newer one wins is the only way for setting priorities) as being in the works or even implemented, but I (or anybody else posting here, AFAIK) have yet to see those features, so do not trust that what you see at that site will be applicable in our neck of the woods.

Had a couple of more thoughts about things that don't seem as smooth as my previous standard digital with Passport. I'll apologize now if it's hardware rather than Navigator, but honestly, how would even a semi-experienced person know the difference?

1) This one is really bugging me. I hope the "Fast Forward Jump Back" described on the Nebraska site has simply not been made available here yet because if they think it's working, it's not even close. When I first got my digital DVR box to replace the VCR, I thought that had to have been one of the coolest features ever.

2) The remote is slow. Trying to change channels is the obvious one. When I press a number, there is a noticeable delay before you see it appear on the screen. In fact it's so bad that if you actually wait to see it, it usually changes the channel first! The remote needs to be more responsive and I think it could probably delay a bit longer before presuming you were done entering the channel number.

3) I'll presume this is more likely hardware and since it's HD specific, I have no basis of comparison withwhat Passport does. Changing between channels broadcast at a different format is awful. It takes around 3 seconds during which the screen goes black and it says "No video signal" on the screen. Very irritating.
Yesterday I also encountered something very odd a couple of times. I don't remember the exact message, but I was trying to change to a channel I know works, but got a message about it being an unsupported format or something like that. At that point I couldn't do anything - no guide, no channel changes, at least not right away. Apparently it "remembered" I was trying to change the channel and after a LONG delay (30-45 seconds maybe), the picture came back and I was on that new channel. After that, I seemed to be able to get back to the original channel I was trying to get to. Hope that explanation makes sense.

I guess what's frustrating to me is not knowing what features are there, which are planned (and when!) and not having an avenue to really report these experiences to TWC.

Hi Robotron,

Some divisions have surveys that you can fill out concerning the performance and functionality of Navigator, here is the one for Wisconsin, where I am from:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/milwaukee/navigator/mdn_survey.html

ALL DIVISIONS with Navigator should have something like this, as this guide is a constant "work in progress" and TWC needs this type of collective input from its customers. The problem is that, I don't know how much this particular survey at the Wisconsin site would help on a national level, because Navigator's performance varies considerably from state to state and even from division to division within states.

But I believe that a survey of this type should be added to all TWC sites with the Navigator change-over. In this way, data could be better collected to find out all of the issues of changes, improvements, and what still needs improvement or further study.

Jack

ALL DIVISIONS with Navigator should have something like this, as this guide is a constant "work in progress" and TWC needs this type of collective input from its customers. The problem is that, I don't know how much this particular survey at the Wisconsin site would help on a national level, because Navigator's performance varies considerably from state to state and even from division to division within states.

Hopefully that's just a temporary condition, but right now it's rather ironic that the features and functions of Navigator vary from state to state considering one of the big selling points from TWC's perspective was to centralize on a common, corporate-wide platform. In lieu of an actual manual (even on-line since it would in constant flux), it's just troublesome that a national community like this one can't quite share experiences since each geography has different functions or different methods to access those functions. Hopefully it's not as muddled as I make it out to be, but just reading the pages dating back for the past 3 weeks, it does seem people are at different levels of Navigator.

It's insane to launch different versions of Navigator from division to division.Why not keep Sara and Passport if you want to pick and choose your features.Another example of TWC corporate inepitude.Navigator is makeing TWC a laughing stock. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

From what I gathered here earlier, it's not possible to do that if you use the HDMI connection. Only if you use the component connection.

That is unfortunate. Just for fun, you might try the SARA sequence to get into the resolution setup:
1. Using Power button on unit (not remote), turn off power, then press both GUIDE/INFO at same time.
2. Choose Easy or Advanced setup - Easy selects 1080i output only - Advanced provides options for TV type (4x3 or 16x9) and user selected outputs.
3. Follow instructions on the screen. Read instructions carefully. If screen goes blank, it is trying to display a resolution not supported by TV - disable resolution.

xnappo

That is unfortunate. Just for fun, you might try the SARA sequence to get into the resolution setup

Hmmm, I'm pretty sure I tried that the very first night I had the box using the SA manual. The Guide/Info combo did nothing. I presume TWC disabled it and that Navigator/Mystro does whatever magic they want done under the covers. I seem to recall I also tried holding the Select button until the Message icon started blinking and then using the Volume/Channel +/- buttons per the chart in the manual. Again, it didn't seem to do anything. Maybe those functions don't work unless connected via the component cables?

I'll give it another shot later tonight though after we've watched our shows for the evening.

BTW, the SA8300HD manual describes the ability to "copy to VCR tape" which is supposed to go through the OUT2 connection based on what's showing in PIP (well something like that). With the SA8300 and Passport, that option wasn't there. I could copy out to my DVD recorder through OUT2, but I had to watch as I recorded and any guide or info banners, etc would show up in the recording. Still, I could do it in a pinch.

Is the story the same with the 8300HDC and Navigator? I still see no copy option. And what if the show I'm trying to copy is an HD broadcast? I'll have to experiment later this week, but was curious if anyone had any experience with this.

My neighbor across the street had a Direct TV truck in his driveway yesterday ... I think I'll go see what's been going on over there.

Unfortunately, I was able to check out DirecTV and was so unimpressed that I've taken it off the table as an option. The compression is horrible and there were trailing and motion artifacts everywhere. My TWC analog cable signal looks cleaner!!! This was at CircuitCity and I looked at the picture on three different sets (A DLP, LCD, and a Plasma). The SD content was really bad and the HD content looked grainy and overcompressed. The rep tried explaining it away "because the menus were clear". I'd like to see it on another hookup before I completely write them off. However, I did here from someone that some/much of DirecTV's new HD content is nothing more than upconverted SD (it sure looked like it!)

You and I have the same TV. On SARA I have decided to disable all resolutions except 1080i and 720p. Not sure if you can do that on Navigator or not. This means that the box does the upconverting of 480i SD rather than the set... It does a good enough job for me though and decreases the resync time since it changes resolutions a lot less.
xnappo

I can set SARA software to use what ever resolution I want, but I found that leaving it at 1080i works best. The HDMI is very flaky with the handshake due to the HDCP and almost always cause me to lose the picture when I switch channels and the resolution changes. I may try component, but I wish they would just get rid of the HDCP copy protection. It causes more problems than it solves. I would like to let the box passthrough and have my projector handle the processing, but the 1080i output looks good on my DLP.

Another thing I don't get that has been mention above is the virtual lack of guide customization! Ok, adding favorites is fine, but why can't I add and remove channels as I see fit!!! Dish Network had this feature when I had them FIVE YEARS AGO!! I could set the guide up how I wanted to, in fact multiple users could setup the guide how they wanted it! I HATE having to scroll through 1200 channels where the same channels appear 5-7 times! Put all the OnDemand stuff in ONE location! The Music in ONE location, the PPV in ONE location, etc ...

Yep, it's getting old. I've decided I've been too nice about this and I'm requesting a manager call me on this one, and I've requested a credit for my DVR service back to when I got my first HD box.

With box #4 my signal was checked and it was fine and when I had a problem about a year ago (can't remember if it was the phone or internet) they ran a new cable and checked everything out.

My neighbor across the street had a Direct TV truck in his driveway yesterday ... I think I'll go see what's been going on over there.

Probably grasping at straws here, but is your box plugged into a UPS? Maybe you have small power failures/surges.

Probably grasping at straws here, but is your box plugged into a UPS? Maybe you have small power failures/surges.

No, I've thought of that in the past and may move the UPS I have on my cable modem and router to the cable box and see if that helps. I'm still waiting to hear from TWC on the ticket I opened over the weekend.

I believe with the earlier Passport software you could somehow set the retention time for recorded programs, i.e. 1 week, 1 month, until space needed, permanently.

I cannot find any such option with my SA8300 HDC using Mystro. Do I have similar capability and if so where or how.

Thanks,

Dennis

On time warner's website (at least twcnyc.com) it lists a $2.50 a month charge you can add for "Digital Programming Duplication"

Does anybody know what this is? I can't find any info on Google. I figure it is probably some standard charge for digital programming on multiple boxes.

However - I was hoping it is a charge to be allowed to export digital programming with less restrictive 5c copy flags (I recently bought a Tivo Series 3 and TWC only lets me take off network shows via TivoToGo due to copy protection flags)

Anybody know?

Brighthouse Networks, Indianapolis (loosely affiliated with TWC) pushed out a new version of Navigator over the holiday break. I now have Navigator version 2.4.8_2 (2007/11/27). After the update, my once nicely working STB required a complete cold reboot every time you turned on the TV and several times while watching TV if you switched output resolutions...

Disconnecting the eSata drive seems to have fixed it to the point where we just have to cold boot the box once per day. :mad: This is ridiculous. BHN telephone support claims there are no known problems and their only resolution is to swap out the box. I guess I'm going to give this a try... I'll let ya know how it works out...

Hopefully I can get an 8300HD w/ SARA from their reserves... But I'm not going to hold my breath.

I believe with the earlier Passport software you could somehow set the retention time for recorded programs, i.e. 1 week, 1 month, until space needed, permanently.

I cannot find any such option with my SA8300 HDC using Mystro. Do I have similar capability and if so where or how.

Thanks,

Dennis

There are only "Until Space Needed and Do Not Delete" under Record Options; those are per recording, unfortunatelly can not set them per series.

Brighthouse Networks, Indianapolis (loosely affiliated with TWC) pushed out a new version of Navigator over the holiday break. I now have Navigator version 2.4.8_2 (2007/11/27). After the update, my once nicely working STB required a complete cold reboot every time you turned on the TV and several times while watching TV if you switched output resolutions...

Disconnecting the eSata drive seems to have fixed it to the point where we just have to cold boot the box once per day. :mad: This is ridiculous. BHN telephone support claims there are no known problems and their only resolution is to swap out the box. I guess I'm going to give this a try... I'll let ya know how it works out...

Hopefully I can get an 8300HD w/ SARA from their reserves... But I'm not going to hold my breath.

Does that version have any new features? There was some mention somewhere about time-slot recording and a way to set series priorities.

Does that version have any new features? There was some mention somewhere about time-slot recording and a way to set series priorities.

I was actually just reading about these new Navigator features on the TWC Nebraska site, and series priority and time-slot recording (shown as "Air Time" in the UI) are illustrated there.

It actually made me wonder which version of Navigator the Nebraska market had finally landed on with these features, and of course, when we would get it in Raleigh since the lack of those features is the most aggravating thing for me about Navigator coming from Passport. However, I certainly don't want a replay of indy29's experience!

Guess we need a fellow AVS-er in the Nebraska market who can share that info with us ;)

It jumps back about 10 seconds, but it seem to vary, maybe depends on the speed at which you FF.

I'll certainly agree about the "seems to vary" part. ;)

I played with it some last night using a recording of a basketball game. Very convenient since they have a running clock at the top. So looking at the time when I resumed play versus what it showed where it started back up again, I got anywhere from 0 to 4 seconds coming out of 2x FF. I only got the 4 second jump back once and most times it was closer to 0.

On time warner's website (at least twcnyc.com) it lists a $2.50 a month charge you can add for "Digital Programming Duplication"

Does anybody know what this is? I can't find any info on Google. I figure it is probably some standard charge for digital programming on multiple boxes.

However - I was hoping it is a charge to be allowed to export digital programming with less restrictive 5c copy flags (I recently bought a Tivo Series 3 and TWC only lets me take off network shows via TivoToGo due to copy protection flags)

Anybody know?
I think you are correct. Ours (Southern California) is listed under Fees and called "Digital programming fee (2nd & each add'l receiver) - $2.50"
Dan

Not sure if this will be the right forum for this question, so if someone has a better spot for me to ask, just let me know.

This is about the GS511_HDCP_DLG error message. Here's my setup. I have the SA8300HDC connected to the TV via HDMI. Works great. I also have the DVR connected to a VCR/DVD recorder via OUT2 using composite (video, left, right) cables. The VCR/DVD-R is then connected to AV1 of the TV using the component connection. With this setup, I can watch VHS tapes and DVDs fine, but when they are not playing, the VCR/DVD-R attempts to pass through the output of the cable box (whether that's a tv channel or a recorded program or the guide, etc). That lasts a couple of seconds and then the error message appears.

Any ideas or is this another one of those problems where if I used component cables and configured the box to specify the output format(s), I'd be fine? The 8300HDC is supposed to have a "copy to vcr" feature (bound to OUT2), but it seems it's another thing that TWC has taken away from us. Even without that feature, I was able to copy to the VCR/DVD recorder when I had the SA8300 (non-HD model).

Not sure if this will be the right forum for this question, so if someone has a better spot for me to ask, just let me know.

This is about the GS511_HDCP_DLG error message. Here's my setup. I have the SA8300HDC connected to the TV via HDMI. Works great. I also have the DVR connected to a VCR/DVD recorder via OUT2 using composite (video, left, right) cables. The VCR/DVD-R is then connected to AV1 of the TV using the component connection. With this setup, I can watch VHS tapes and DVDs fine, but when they are not playing, the VCR/DVD-R attempts to pass through the output of the cable box (whether that's a tv channel or a recorded program or the guide, etc). That lasts a couple of seconds and then the error message appears.

Any ideas or is this another one of those problems where if I used component cables and configured the box to specify the output format(s), I'd be fine? The 8300HDC is supposed to have a "copy to vcr" feature (bound to OUT2), but it seems it's another thing that TWC has taken away from us. Even without that feature, I was able to copy to the VCR/DVD recorder when I had the SA8300 (non-HD model).

This is just a guess, but it seems reasonable. HDCP is a copy-protection protocol; if I am correct, it goes only over 2-way communication, like HDMI, but not over component. Since you have TV connected through HDMI, the box makes sure that TV replies corectly to its HDCP questions. Maybe the box does not have a notion of "sending only to component/composite output at this time", and since HDMI output is connected, the box asks TV through HDMI for copy protection thingy every time it tries to play something; your TV is tuned to component input and is probably not replying to queries from other inputs. Try having the TV on and tuned to the HDMI input as you are copying the stuff; maybe it will work.

I was actually just reading about these new Navigator features on the TWC Nebraska site, and series priority and time-slot recording (shown as "Air Time" in the UI) are illustrated there.

It actually made me wonder which version of Navigator the Nebraska market had finally landed on with these features, and of course, when we would get it in Raleigh since the lack of those features is the most aggravating thing for me about Navigator coming from Passport. However, I certainly don't want a replay of indy29's experience!

Guess we need a fellow AVS-er in the Nebraska market who can share that info with us ;)

Can anyone provide a link to the Nebraska site to see a screen of these features? Navigator is coming soon to my Milwaukee Wisconsin area on non-OCAP DVR's, and I want to be able to study any important screens and updates, so I can learn the functions and features to help others.

It is interesting that we haven't heard a lot of complaints from the Lincoln Nebraska area, where all of the initial problems originated. Have they finally gotten their act together with Navigator? I can report, according to the Milwaukee HDTV forums, that the non-OCAP box rollout has gone well for existing Pioneer and SA models. We may finally have some encouragement regarding this new guide.

Jack

Can anyone provide a link to the Nebraska site to see a screen of these features?

http://www.timewarnercable.com/Nebraska/products/cable/mdn/Enhancements.html

It is interesting that we haven't heard a lot of complaints from the Lincoln Nebraska area, where all of the initial problems originated. Have they finally gotten their act together with Navigator? I can report, according to the Milwaukee HDTV forums, that the non-OCAP box rollout has gone well for existing Pioneer and SA models. We may finally have some encouragement regarding this new guide.

Jack

Yeah, I haven't read the entire thread, so I'm not sure what they might have already voiced. I'm pretty sure they had their share of pain though. There was apparently a letter sent from the Lincoln TWC office to customers in the area apologizing for the trouble.

Have they finally gotten their act together with Navigator? I can report, according to the Milwaukee HDTV forums, that the non-OCAP box rollout has gone well for existing Pioneer and SA models. We may finally have some encouragement regarding this new guide.

Jack

I'm very disappointed ot hear that. Whether there are bugs or not, Navigator is still a inferior product compared to Passport or SARA. On the other hand, if the bugs are resolved, maybe there will now be more focus on fixing the UI. A complete overhaul, including new colors and fonts, adding features from Passport and SARA, and reducing the size of graphics. is it just me or do most of the menus look "blown up"? Like the oversize channel banner.

After 3 months with Crapigator, I'm less than optimistic with it. If the Navigator Plague spreads to NE Ohio, I'll give it a month(to be fair:rolleyes:) and then it goes back. I've already been looking at the S3 or D*.

Regardless of different features or "workarounds", Navigator is still an inferior product. Especially when used to specific features(buffering on both tuners and while box is off; "hourglass" indicators in the DVR list to warn about imminent show deletion) And on top of that, shelling out large amounts of money for a service I expect to work and be dependable. If I am not getting a dependable product with features I want, I'll go elsewhere and there is no shortage of better products out there.

Okay, so I am also here because I also just got the 8300HDC to go with my Panasonic 42pz700u 1080p plasma. I have a 8300HD hooked up to an HDTV in the bedroom. I am connecting both of the boxes to the tv's with HDMI.

I have used the 8300HDC w/Navigator and I have to say I too absolutely hate the new software. I don't know what it is, but compared to the 8300HD running the passport it is terrible. Don't get me wrong, the passport isn't the best either but it looks great when compared to this new software for the 8300HDC.

I do have a few questions that I am still confused about.

1) Contrary to what I have read from some of your posts, I actually get a choice for output resolution even though I am running thru HDMI. I currently have it set for 480i, 720p, and 1080i. I do have to state though that at times it will give me that message under output resolutions that can't adjust this setting when using HDMI so I am kind of confused as to why that is? Software bug maybe? anybody else have this issue?

2) When I am setting up the output resolution at 480i, 720p, and 1080i I am under the impression that for each of the signals it is my TV that is upscaling/deinterlacing? Am I correct in this assumption?

3) Is it a matter of preference or would it be better to set everything at output 1080i and let the STB do the upconverting/deinterlacing? I feel that all channels that are natively output at 1080i(i.e. CBS) look sharper than the 720p(ii.e. Fox) channels on this TV so I am wondering if that is due to an incorrect output resolution setting on the box or that the TV's deinteralcer is just better than upscaler.

4) I do get an audio sync problem on some of my HD channels, but not all so I am wondering if I have set something incorrectly in the STB. Does anybody know if there are fixes to these audio sync problems or is it just an inherent HDMI issue?

5) I have finally figured out the correct setting on this 8300HDC that I want for the aspect ratio setting where i want all the 4:3 channels to be stretched and HD in native format. It seems that there are a few non-HD channels that I can't get to fill the entire screen(i.e. CW) no matter if I use the STB remote aspect ratio or the tv's aspect ratio adjustment. Either way it still a little of the black lines on the sides. Is there a way to fix this or is it something wrong with the channel or box itself?

Sorry about the long post, but any help would be great. Thanks

Add me to the list of disgruntled Navigator users. I'm a Brighthouse customer in Carmel, IN. I've got 2 Navigator boxes currently, an 8300HDC and a 4250HDC. SARA left a lot to be desired but Navigator really sucks. It's as if no end users were ever involved in the development process.

Just to name a few annoyances...
- Long movie titles that get truncated with slashes inserted were words go making it impossible to decipher the name unless you know it already.
- Painfully slow for the fastest FF or RW
- Typing in a non existent channel gives flashing ???? instead of jumping to the nearest channel
- Can't fix the output res when using HDMI
- If a program is in the process of recording for 5 minutes for example, you then go to List and view that program from the beginning. The recording stops from the 5 minute mark on and after viewing the 5 minutes that did record you get a frozen screen. At that point you lose minutes 5-10 on the recording and you pick the program back up at minute 10. Not sure if that makes sense, but in summary the thing is F'd up.

Not to mention that the 4250HDC has to be rebooted if it is ever shut off (when connected via HDMI). Otherwise it just displays a message on the screen stating that HDMI output is not available.

You know it's not so much that Navigator has issues as it is disappointing that TWC is unable or unwilling to fix issues that have been known about for quite some time. And they've had tons of time to do it. And as a software developer myself, it's inexcusable to effectively ignore the competition whether that be Tivo, SARA, Passport or whatever else might be running on their competitors' boxes. They've had more than enough time to have picked up on all the best features from those other platforms.
There is nothing "inherently" wrong with Navigator. Do you realize how quickly everything could get fixed and how full featured it could be if it were out in the open source community?

Okay, so I am also here because I also just got the 8300HDC to go with my Panasonic 42pz700u 1080p plasma. I have a 8300HD hooked up to an HDTV in the bedroom. I am connecting both of the boxes to the tv's with HDMI.

I have used the 8300HDC w/Navigator and I have to say I too absolutely hate the new software. I don't know what it is, but compared to the 8300HD running the passport it is terrible. Don't get me wrong, the passport isn't the best either but it looks great when compared to this new software for the 8300HDC.

I do have a few questions that I am still confused about.

1) Contrary to what I have read from some of your posts, I actually get a choice for output resolution even though I am running thru HDMI. I currently have it set for 480i, 720p, and 1080i. I do have to state though that at times it will give me that message under output resolutions that can't adjust this setting when using HDMI so I am kind of confused as to why that is? Software bug maybe? anybody else have this issue?

2) When I am setting up the output resolution at 480i, 720p, and 1080i I am under the impression that for each of the signals it is my TV that is upscaling/deinterlacing? Am I correct in this assumption?

3) Is it a matter of preference or would it be better to set everything at output 1080i and let the STB do the upconverting/deinterlacing? I feel that all channels that are natively output at 1080i(i.e. CBS) look sharper than the 720p(ii.e. Fox) channels on this TV so I am wondering if that is due to an incorrect output resolution setting on the box or that the TV's deinteralcer is just better than upscaler.

4) I do get an audio sync problem on some of my HD channels, but not all so I am wondering if I have set something incorrectly in the STB. Does anybody know if there are fixes to these audio sync problems or is it just an inherent HDMI issue?

5) I have finally figured out the correct setting on this 8300HDC that I want for the aspect ratio setting where i want all the 4:3 channels to be stretched and HD in native format. It seems that there are a few non-HD channels that I can't get to fill the entire screen(i.e. CW) no matter if I use the STB remote aspect ratio or the tv's aspect ratio adjustment. Either way it still a little of the black lines on the sides. Is there a way to fix this or is it something wrong with the channel or box itself?

Sorry about the long post, but any help would be great. Thanks

1) Actually, you can *not* set the resolutions when connected through HDMI, it will communicate with TV and pass through everything TV supports, upconvert/downconvert what TV does not support, if any. What you are seeing is a bug: software apparently sets menus when the box is turned on, and will not change them afterwards, so if you turn the box on first, then TV, the box will get no reply and set menus as though you can adjust resolution (as well as 4:3 vs 16:9), but it will ignore your settings and still do the pass-through thing. If you turn the TV on first, then the box, the menus will have a message "can't change with HDMI" or someting like that, and you won't be able to adjust anything (which is correct considering how box works; whether it is your preference, that's another thing). That's why you are seeing one thing sometimes and the other thing other times - also, it may depend on the time it takes for TV/box to start, i.e. you may turn the TV on first, but before TV is fully on, you turn the DVR on.

2) see 1)

3) If your TV is 1080p, chances are 1080i will look sharper than 720p, as there is simply more info; deinterlacing is normally easier than interpolating. I have the same thing happening, but I have to get real close to TV to notice.

4) I don't have it, so I can't say, but my guess (and that's just a guess) is that TV is slow to process some signals; is it related to only 720p or only 1080i channels? This assumes if you have STB directly connected to your receiver for the sound. If not, I don't know.

5) It is probably the channel. Here we get HD version of CW, but almost every time I tuned to it it was an upconverted SD recording that looked worse than most of the SD channels.

Thanks for the reply Pedja. Makes sense now. I guess it was the software that made it appear that I was changing output resolutions, but as you said the hdmi is overiding it anyways.

You know it's not so much that Navigator has issues as it is disappointing that TWC is unable or unwilling to fix issues that have been known about for quite some time. And they've had tons of time to do it. And as a software developer myself, it's inexcusable to effectively ignore the competition whether that be Tivo, SARA, Passport or whatever else might be running on their competitors' boxes. They've had more than enough time to have picked up on all the best features from those other platforms.
There is nothing "inherently" wrong with Navigator. Do you realize how quickly everything could get fixed and how full featured it could be if it were out in the open source community?

Quite true, the features on my almost 10 year old ReplayTV are light years ahead of cable DVRs (but it has old hardware - it won't do HD and has only one tuner, or I'd still be using it). But I think it is not just the ability (and I believe that ability is part of it -TWC not really being in software business is costing them in terms of quality; don't get me started on the manual, or lack of thereof), it is mainly politics. The way TWC sees it, Tivo, SARA, Passport are not competition - satelite is the competition; SARA and Passport are just vendors they are replacing with in-house stuff. Now, if significant number of people are leaving to go with satelite *because of satelite DVR being better*, then they will notice. Until (if) that happens, they do not care; their goal is not to make the best DVR they can for their customers, but to make one just good enough so they won't switch to satelite, and the one that makes you buy as much of their product line as possible, while keeping their content providers happy. For example, DVR insists on showing you stuff you don't subscibe to or On Demand stuff in hope of you seeing something you like and subscribing to it; they refuse to provide 30 second skip (or arbitary number of minutes skip) so that it will be harder to skip commercials. There is a big difference between DVRs designed by (Navigator) or for (SARA, Passport) cable companies and the ones designed for viewers (ReplayTV, Tivo). From what I've seen on SA web site, and what people mentioned here about Passport, they seem comparable (in features and in overall scope) to each other and to Navigator; don't get me wrong, there are differences, but not as big as when you compare them to ReplayTV or Tivo. Likely, the moment TivoHD's SDV dongle is released and shown to work reliably I'm buying one. Meanwhile, for me at least, I have not seen a single feature in SARA or Passport that I'm dying to have in Navigator. There are some like-to-haves, to be sure, like time-slot recording, but then again, I like the Navigator's ability to record a show only once and schedule which airing in a way that avoid conflicts better than any Passport/SARA feature I've heard of that Navigator is missing, actually better than all such features combined. Of course, that's clearly personal preference, you may find other features way more important; I may be weird that way - I'd trade both that feature and most other Navigator's features just for a 30 second skip button.

This looks interesting and if you look closely you will see (albeit briefly) that this box is running Navigator software! EEK! Navigator at the CES! Now, could it be that this new box runs Navigator efficiently? Will this prove that the Navigator problems are indeed hardware related??? While this is more of a teaser review, it still shows some great advances and features that could be used. (IE: the Ethernet port for multi-room DVR)

Check it out HERE! (http://reviews.cnet.com/Cisco_8550_HDC/4660-13855_7-6826149.html?tag=vid)

This looks interesting and if you look closely you will see (albeit briefly) that this box is running Navigator software! EEK! Navigator at the CES! Now, could it be that this new box runs Navigator efficiently? Will this prove that the Navigator problems are indeed hardware related??? While this is more of a teaser review, it still shows some great advances and features that could be used. (IE: the Ethernet port for multi-room DVR)

Check it out HERE! (http://reviews.cnet.com/Cisco_8550_HDC/4660-13855_7-6826149.html?tag=vid)

What you are seeing there is just the next Scientific Atlanta box. Remember Cisco owns SA, so with that comes the usual disclaimer that just because a box can do something, doesn't mean TWC will let it. The box is the slave to the OS and in this case if it isn't in Navigator we won't get it.

...
3) If your TV is 1080p, chances are 1080i will look sharper than 720p, as there is simply more info; deinterlacing is normally easier than interpolating. I have the same thing happening, but I have to get real close to TV to notice.
...


Actually, interpolation is easier to perform than deinterlacing. Interpolating is just averaging pixels out to create a smoothed out image instead of a pixelated image, and there is no guesswork in it. Deinterlacing requires guesswork because different situations call for different methods of deinterlacing. How does a chip know when to just cut and paste the previous frame's lines into this frame's lines? How does it know when to perform pulldown, and how does it know which cadence to use? How does a chip know when to discard the previous frame's lines and perform interpolation? A chip doesn't know. All it can do is guess. It must guess using heuristics, which is just advanced guesswork. Better chips can guess right more of the time and can therefore perform the correct algorithm more often than not. However, it is just guesswork on a job that requires a human or playback on a device that natively supports the interlaced resolution natively (e.g. a CRT or a CRT-based RPTV) to perform perfectly.

As for 1080i being sharper than 720p, that depends on the content. On a soap opera, news broadcast, or other low action content; or a movie which the deinterlacer can guess and apply pulldown with the correct cadence, that is true. On sports, 1080i is often less sharp than 720p due to compression artifacts that appear in high-speed interlaced video that does not appear in progressive scan video because computers compress progressively scanned video much better than interlaced video and will force deinterlacers on the receiving end to perform interpolation because the difference in frames is too great for them to perform cut, move, and paste deinterlacing, therefore throwing half the vertical detail away. (One of the few benefits of having a direct view CRT or a CRT-based RPTV is that they do not need deinterlacing for 1080i video, causing your eyes and brain to perform that task nearly perfectly every time. However, CRT-based RPTVs lose convergence so often that this is not enough to offset this unreliability.)

As for whether the television's scaler is better than the cable box's scaler, this is usually true because cable boxes generally are built to be as low cost as possible and not get rejected by the end-user. Most televisions are built to look as good as possible. Therefore, the scaler in the TV is usually better, as long as you are using HDMI or DVI. If you are using component video, then the cable box's scaler can sometimes be better because the TV's scaler is hobbled by the fact that it must sample the incoming video, and that sampler might not take enough samples to keep the image from getting pixelated, as is what happens when my television's scaler is active. (It runs in my TV whenever the TV is fed 480i, which the CRTs inside cannot use. It is scaled to 480p for the tubes to use. My scaler passes 480p and 1080i through, and blue screens on 720p. My CRT-based RPTV uses component video because it does not have an HDMI port.) In such a case, the image will only look excellent if teh cable box outputs the native resolution of your TV through the component video. Unfortunately, component video cannot output 1080p, so you are screwed unless you use HDMI or DVI to skip the sampler and give your TV's scaler the image that cannot be damaged by bad sampling. Therefore, if you want the best video, it is best to have HDMI or DVI pass all resolutions through unless either the TV does not understand them or if your TV's scaler is worse than your cable box's scaler and the scaled image can be passed through to your screen without getting worked on by your TV's scaler.

This looks interesting and if you look closely you will see (albeit briefly) that this box is running Navigator software! EEK! Navigator at the CES! Now, could it be that this new box runs Navigator efficiently? Will this prove that the Navigator problems are indeed hardware related??? While this is more of a teaser review, it still shows some great advances and features that could be used. (IE: the Ethernet port for multi-room DVR)

Check it out HERE! (http://reviews.cnet.com/Cisco_8550_HDC/4660-13855_7-6826149.html?tag=vid)

Interesting. I wonder why a Cisco box on display would be running Navigator instead of SARA? Now, what I really want to know is how they got Crapigator to work long enough for that demo. :rolleyes: I'd be willing to bet there's alot of behind the scenes reboots. ;)

The latest for us in Wisconsin, is that all areas should have the new guide by the end of first quarter. Here is the e-mail response I got from TWC: (They are saying that the DVR's will be last to be changed.)

*************************************************

Thank you for writing Time Warner.

Our goal is to have all Passport changed to the Navigator by the end of this quarter. The DVR boxes are the last to upgrade.

The Navigator system at this time will automatically change the Aspect Ratio depending on what channel you tune to. It also has enhanced graphics and menu searches for programming. It has a Audio feature to level the sound between commercials, programming and channels.

We will have the capability to upgrade the Navigator system and make changes as time progresses. We will have more control over the features.

If you have anymore questions we can help you with please let us know. We will be happy to further assist you.

Thank you for choosing Time Warner Cable.

*************************************************

Jack

Interesting. I wonder why a Cisco box on display would be running Navigator instead of SARA? Now, what I really want to know is how they got Crapigator to work long enough for that demo. :rolleyes: I'd be willing to bet there's alot of behind the scenes reboots. ;)

They were showing the ability to run 3rd party(OCAP) software I think...

xnappo

We will have the capability to upgrade the Navigator system and make changes as time progresses.


"Time" sounds very long. I read that and picture time lapse photography of the continents changing.

Actually, interpolation is easier to perform than deinterlacing. Interpolating is just averaging pixels out to create a smoothed out image instead of a pixelated image, and there is no guesswork in it. Deinterlacing requires guesswork because different situations call for different methods of deinterlacing. How does a chip know when to just cut and paste the previous frame's lines into this frame's lines? How does it know when to perform pulldown, and how does it know which cadence to use? How does a chip know when to discard the previous frame's lines and perform interpolation? A chip doesn't know. All it can do is guess. It must guess using heuristics, which is just advanced guesswork. Better chips can guess right more of the time and can therefore perform the correct algorithm more often than not. However, it is just guesswork on a job that requires a human or playback on a device that natively supports the interlaced resolution natively (e.g. a CRT or a CRT-based RPTV) to perform perfectly.

As for 1080i being sharper than 720p, that depends on the content. On a soap opera, news broadcast, or other low action content; or a movie which the deinterlacer can guess and apply pulldown with the correct cadence, that is true. On sports, 1080i is often less sharp than 720p due to compression artifacts that appear in high-speed interlaced video that does not appear in progressive scan video because computers compress progressively scanned video much better than interlaced video and will force deinterlacers on the receiving end to perform interpolation because the difference in frames is too great for them to perform cut, move, and paste deinterlacing, therefore throwing half the vertical detail away. (One of the few benefits of having a direct view CRT or a CRT-based RPTV is that they do not need deinterlacing for 1080i video, causing your eyes and brain to perform that task nearly perfectly every time. However, CRT-based RPTVs lose convergence so often that this is not enough to offset this unreliability.)

As for whether the television's scaler is better than the cable box's scaler, this is usually true because cable boxes generally are built to be as low cost as possible and not get rejected by the end-user. Most televisions are built to look as good as possible. Therefore, the scaler in the TV is usually better, as long as you are using HDMI or DVI. If you are using component video, then the cable box's scaler can sometimes be better because the TV's scaler is hobbled by the fact that it must sample the incoming video, and that sampler might not take enough samples to keep the image from getting pixelated, as is what happens when my television's scaler is active. (It runs in my TV whenever the TV is fed 480i, which the CRTs inside cannot use. It is scaled to 480p for the tubes to use. My scaler passes 480p and 1080i through, and blue screens on 720p. My CRT-based RPTV uses component video because it does not have an HDMI port.) In such a case, the image will only look excellent if teh cable box outputs the native resolution of your TV through the component video. Unfortunately, component video cannot output 1080p, so you are screwed unless you use HDMI or DVI to skip the sampler and give your TV's scaler the image that cannot be damaged by bad sampling. Therefore, if you want the best video, it is best to have HDMI or DVI pass all resolutions through unless either the TV does not understand them or if your TV's scaler is worse than your cable box's scaler and the scaled image can be passed through to your screen without getting worked on by your TV's scaler.

It may be that my TV (58") has a particularly good deinterlacer, as, from about 4 or 5 feet, I could clearly tell that 1080i is sharper than 720p; maybe I was not watching fast-changing stuff, as you mentioned. One would also think that upconverting 720p to 1080p would involve more than just averaging, some guesswork would have to be involved there as well to get quality result. I do watch a fair amount of football, some of it is on CBS and NBC (which are 1080i) and have yet to see any artifacts (admittedly, I normally sit about 9-10 feet away from screen).

It may be that my TV (58") has a particularly good deinterlacer, as, from about 4 or 5 feet, I could clearly tell that 1080i is sharper than 720p; maybe I was not watching fast-changing stuff, as you mentioned. One would also think that upconverting 720p to 1080p would involve more than just averaging, some guesswork would have to be involved there as well to get quality result. I do watch a fair amount of football, some of it is on CBS and NBC (which are 1080i) and have yet to see any artifacts (admittedly, I normally sit about 9-10 feet away from screen).

Interesting stuff. I do watch a lot of sports and it always seems to me that sports at 1080i looks much sharper still than 720p and I couldn't really see any blurring of image with either output. I sit about 7-8 ft away with a 42" TV. I have to say though that both resolutions are great and it is not like the 720p looks bad compared to 1080i as both HD pics are still stunning but just my observation with an untrained eye. I am planning to calibrate my TV which I haven't done yet ,so I am sure that may make a big difference for all outputs in the end

Does that version have any new features? There was some mention somewhere about time-slot recording and a way to set series priorities.
I'll be honest, with the writers strike going on, I'm not recording OR watching much TV. The biggest users of the big screen is the kids watching cartoon network....

When I get home tonight, I'll check it out. But to be honest, I didn't see much of anything different at all.

I'll be honest, with the writers strike going on, I'm not recording OR watching much TV. The biggest users of the big screen is the kids watching cartoon network....

When I get home tonight, I'll check it out. But to be honest, I didn't see much of anything different at all.

Thanks; I am curious to see if the stuff mentioned on Nebraska site (http://www.timewarnercable.com/Nebraska/products/cable/mdn/Enhancements.html) is there, specifically:

- Series Prioritization
- Time slot series scheduling, it is the fourth item under "Record Series with Options"
- Banner Size and Duration
- Show List Icons (this one you can't really see unless you DVR is near full, I guess), also part 2 under Hard Drive Gas Gauge

Brighthouse Networks, Indianapolis (loosely affiliated with TWC) pushed out a new version of Navigator over the holiday break. I now have Navigator version 2.4.8_2 (2007/11/27). After the update, my once nicely working STB required a complete cold reboot every time you turned on the TV and several times while watching TV if you switched output resolutions...

Disconnecting the eSata drive seems to have fixed it to the point where we just have to cold boot the box once per day. :mad: This is ridiculous. BHN telephone support claims there are no known problems and their only resolution is to swap out the box. I guess I'm going to give this a try... I'll let ya know how it works out...

Hopefully I can get an 8300HD w/ SARA from their reserves... But I'm not going to hold my breath.


Greetings all, I'm new to this forum, have watched AVS Forums over the years however for various things. I'm an avid Home Theater and PC guy - like tinkering with electronics and all that. I was actually going out of my way to get a Navigator box from our local TWC. I used to have 3 Passport boxes - because I couldn't attach an eSATA to them - tried a few times - the last time I searched in the forums either I wasn't at the right passport level or it couldn't be done in passport (I forget which).

Anyway, about 2 months ago I switched one of my boxes to the 8300HDC with Navigator, bought a 500Gig external eSATA drive and hooked it up following instructions I found in the forums. It worked flawlessly. I did have some concerns with the change in interface from passport to navigator, but not enough to go back - I really wanted the hard drive space. My spouse watches a lot of Tennis, so when the US Open comes on (and others), recording them in HD is really nice.

I returned the other two Passport boxes, and use just the one now (they were all hooked up to the same TV - you should have seen trying to coordinate which was on etc...)

Then, about 4 weeks ago, when I turned on the TV, all I got was a black screen, with audio though. Couldn't get into the guide or anything. Couldn't switch channels. I then went through about a week trying different things - rebooting without the eSATA attached was the only thing that worked. If I then re attached the eSATA (either hot or cold attach with reboot), it would then come up fine. However about half a day later, the system would freeze up again. Usually with a black screen. sometimes without audio. Sometimes the screen would just freeze with the picture on it that we were watching, (and not move at all, like a jpg). I'd have to reboot without the eSATA, then put the eSATA back on. I lost the data on the eSATA once - that's what made me then go get another HDC with Navigator - I didn't want to replace this one yet, since it still has Tennis on it that needs to be watched.

The new one started doing the same thing immediately. I then convinced myself that the external hard drive must be having problems... got a new one of those, and still the same problem. At least now I have a nice extra big drive on my PC!

I'm now running both 8300HDC's without the external drive. I haven't had to reboot manually at all - although I have noticed it has rebooted maybe once a day(?) since this started - and I don't think it rebooted by itself before. Otherwise it seems to work good, unless I put back the external drive. And then I get the same freeze problems again.

It sounds like from the referenced append above by Indy29 that they had perhaps a similar/same problem with their eSATA. Has anyone else seen this? Or have any suggestions for me. I haven't yet called this in, since I worked in service myself for 15 years, and normally really hate having to go through service (ha/sorry). But will call it in if folks think it will be of use - I'm not sure whether TWC formally supports the eSATA's or not.

I don't know what my Navigator sw level was prior to the problems, but I am currently on the 2.4.8_2 level (and do have the bells and whistles that the Nebraska TW site talks about - all except callerid showing up). Once I ruled out HW, I had suspected it could be due to an upgrade of Navigator.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Greetings all, I'm new to this forum, have watched AVS Forums over the years however for various things. I'm an avid Home Theater and PC guy - like tinkering with electronics and all that. I was actually going out of my way to get a Navigator box from our local TWC. I used to have 3 Passport boxes - because I couldn't attach an eSATA to them - tried a few times - the last time I searched in the forums either I wasn't at the right passport level or it couldn't be done in passport (I forget which).

Anyway, about 2 months ago I switched one of my boxes to the 8300HDC with Navigator, bought a 500Gig external eSATA drive and hooked it up following instructions I found in the forums. It worked flawlessly. I did have some concerns with the change in interface from passport to navigator, but not enough to go back - I really wanted the hard drive space. My spouse watches a lot of Tennis, so when the US Open comes on (and others), recording them in HD is really nice.

I returned the other two Passport boxes, and use just the one now (they were all hooked up to the same TV - you should have seen trying to coordinate which was on etc...)

Then, about 4 weeks ago, when I turned on the TV, all I got was a black screen, with audio though. Couldn't get into the guide or anything. Couldn't switch channels. I then went through about a week trying different things - rebooting without the eSATA attached was the only thing that worked. If I then re attached the eSATA (either hot or cold attach with reboot), it would then come up fine. However about half a day later, the system would freeze up again. Usually with a black screen. sometimes without audio. Sometimes the screen would just freeze with the picture on it that we were watching, (and not move at all, like a jpg). I'd have to reboot without the eSATA, then put the eSATA back on. I lost the data on the eSATA once - that's what made me then go get another HDC with Navigator - I didn't want to replace this one yet, since it still has Tennis on it that needs to be watched.

The new one started doing the same thing immediately. I then convinced myself that the external hard drive must be having problems... got a new one of those, and still the same problem. At least now I have a nice extra big drive on my PC!

I'm now running both 8300HDC's without the external drive. I haven't had to reboot manually at all - although I have noticed it has rebooted maybe once a day(?) since this started - and I don't think it rebooted by itself before. Otherwise it seems to work good, unless I put back the external drive. And then I get the same freeze problems again.

It sounds like from the referenced append above by Indy29 that they had perhaps a similar/same problem with their eSATA. Has anyone else seen this? Or have any suggestions for me. I haven't yet called this in, since I worked in service myself for 15 years, and normally really hate having to go through service (ha/sorry). But will call it in if folks think it will be of use - I'm not sure whether TWC formally supports the eSATA's or not.

I don't know what my Navigator sw level was prior to the problems, but I am currently on the 2.4.8_2 level (and do have the bells and whistles that the Nebraska TW site talks about - all except callerid showing up). Once I ruled out HW, I had suspected it could be due to an upgrade of Navigator.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

This could be due to 2.4.8_2; indy29 started having problems with eSATA after being switched to that version as well. Apparently, 2.4.8_2 does not like eSATA drives; unfortunatelly, I don't think they are officialy supported, so probably TWC will be of no help there. I have 2.4.5_4 and eSATA drive and it works OK - I hope I don't get switched soon, as those bells and whistles are not worth giving up extra space.

I have been told from someone connected to TWC that the Navigator version for SARA users has all the Lincoln features.Select TWC employees are beta testing it now.When it is to start being ported to SARA boxes is anyones guess.Would anyone from Brigthouse who had SARA let us know what features they got?I hope the beta test for SARA lasts at least a year.I like some Navigator features I have read about but hate the unreliability of the thing. Any anyone from Lincoln on the boad could you give us a update of your version of Navigator. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Interesting. I wonder why a Cisco box on display would be running Navigator instead of SARA? Now, what I really want to know is how they got Crapigator to work long enough for that demo. :rolleyes: I'd be willing to bet there's alot of behind the scenes reboots. ;)

Word is that Cisco is going to drop the Scientific Atlanta name/line.

Word is that Cisco is going to drop the Scientific Atlanta name/line.

If I was them I wouldn't. Cisco makes good networking hardware but if they put their name on a Navigator box they'll be the ones regular consumers think is to blame.

If I was them I wouldn't. Cisco makes good networking hardware but if they put their name on a Navigator box they'll be the ones regular consumers think is to blame.

You got a point there. I don't know if this was a corporate wide thing or not. I still didn't hear if they are going to drop the Linksys name either. However, it could cause confusion all the way around. I personally use and recommend Linksys (Cisco) components for network applications due to ease of use and overall reliability and quality. If consumers get it in their head that Cisco is somehow responsible for Navigator then it could hurt business to the other product lines .... unless of course the new STB works well with Navigator! :rolleyes:

I want to throw out a hypothetical for the board: (or two)

As mentioned in my above post, the latest from TWC for my Milwaukee Wisconsin division is to have Navigator across all boxes/DVR's by the end of third quarter. On the "long end", I have about two and a half months with Passport left, on the "short end," maybe a month to a month and a half. It is unknown how long it takes for them to change over all of the boxes once they start. At least they appear to be going slow, model number, by model number, and aren't just downloading this thing through a haphazard one rollout for all boxes like was done last year in Lincoln Nebraska.

So if, and this should be a big IF, the DVR rollout in particular goes through in my area with little to no problems, could more of the blame be shifted to the new C-boxes over Navigator itself? Or have we not reached that point yet? Do you believe that it will still be "Crapigator" on a non-C box?

Four questions that we don't know: (at least IMO)

1.) Was the initial rollout of Navigator to Lincoln Nebraska, Kansas City MO, and Milwaukee Wisconsin, last year designed for OCAP and it was just put on non-OCAP boxes resulting in all of the problems?

2.) Who on the forums has Navigator on a non-OCAP box or DVR and what are the experiences with it? (any non-C units.) Here in Wisconsin, the new "rollout" to SA and Pioneer units appears to have gone well.

3.) How has Navigator been in Lincoln Nebraska as of now? This was the city that had the first and worst of the rollout experiences last year. In relation to this, why aren't the upgrades to subscribers in Lincoln Nebraska appear to not be showing up in other Navigator divisions? Could this be because the initial experiences in Nebraska were so frustrating and God Awful for subscribers that TWC there feels committed to providing the updates to save their PR? Are things better in that division? It would certainly appear that they are, because no one from Lincoln has complained of problems on the board for a long time.

4.) How much has improved with this system and what still needs improvement or further study?

Jack

Word is that Cisco is going to drop the Scientific Atlanta name/line.

If I was them I wouldn't. Cisco makes good networking hardware but if they put their name on a Navigator box they'll be the ones regular consumers think is to blame.

You got a point there. I don't know if this was a corporate wide thing or not. I still didn't hear if they are going to drop the Linksys name either. However, it could cause confusion all the way around. I personally use and recommend Linksys (Cisco) components for network applications due to ease of use and overall reliability and quality. If consumers get it in their head that Cisco is somehow responsible for Navigator then it could hurt business to the other product lines .... unless of course the new STB works well with Navigator! :rolleyes:

Does this mean that SARA will either be renamed or dropped completely along with the Scientific Atlanta brand? I could see that they are trying to demonstrate third party software compatibility by running Navigator, but they are also setting themselves up for trouble.

Think of it like this:
A customer trades in a 8300SD for the new Cisco 8550HDC, with OCAP and Navigator. Navigator performs horribly plus the UI is different and features are missing. A customer not on this forum and who doesn't know alot about technology and the name change will put 2 and 2 together and say that "this new Cisco company and their box is crap." When really it is the SAME people making the boxes, just different software from the cableco.

A Cisco cable box does seem odd at first, but I hope the bugs from the 8300HDC get resolved. Think of the 8000HD and it's "bugs". The 8300HD was released later and works MUCH better than the 8000.

If I was them I wouldn't. Cisco makes good networking hardware but if they put their name on a Navigator box they'll be the ones regular consumers think is to blame.
Yes. I think Sun should be suing somebody over having the Java logo on my boot screen. One of my friends who knows little about computers beyond using AOL has already made negative comments about Java based on her experience with her new cable box.

-Marty

This doesn't seem to be available here. I also don't get anything on channel 611, but can get diagnostic info by holding the SEL key followed by the down arrow. I didn't see anything that looked like a "stack" version, but my ODN version = 2.4.5_4 2007/08/29
This part seems to be quite variable. Somebody, I think from Texas, stated that they had a diagnostic screen on channel 996, but I do not (in NE Ohio). And the diag screens I have on 611 and via the remote's Select button are both very poor compared to the 611 screens I had on Passport.

-Marty

Yes. I think Sun should be suing somebody over having the Java logo on my boot screen. One of my friends who knows little about computers beyond using AOL has already made negative comments about Java based on her experience with her new cable box.

-Marty

I'm surprised anyoen would want to be involved with this. I'ms till surprised Cisco is dumping the Scientific Atlanta name. Considering the sale happened before the 7/1/07 ruling, you'd think that Cisco would be less than thrilled with what they acquired and would not want that bad technology with SA and the HDC Boxes tied to their name. IMO, serious technology companies like Sun/Java and Cisco would want to distance themselves from this butt of jokes know as Navigator and the SA HDC boxes.

Just for confirmation about my previous comment. Cisco plans to phase out the SA name by the end of this year.

HERE is the article. (http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6412207.html?display=Breaking+News)

Weird thing is that I just found this being mention (in light of the CES this week), but that article is almost a year old. This would indicate that this is already happening and would explain why the box at the CES show is branded as Cisco.

*As for the HDMI settings, unlike Passport, Navigator DOES NOT let you choose outputs(i.e. 1080i only). Navigator outputs on HDMI based on native resolution. I've read about the picture getting stuck on a white screen because of this.

Could swear I read around here that someone said one CAN use a component cable to set this then change back to the HDMI cable, which would "honor' the settings one made with the component connections.

Can this be done or not?

Could swear I read around here that someone said one CAN use a component cable to set this then change back to the HDMI cable, which would "honor' the settings one made with the component connections.

Can this be done or not?

I don't think so. You can set it like that, and Navigator will remember the settings, but when connected with HDMI it will do whatever it always does, totally ignoring those settings.

Could swear I read around here that someone said one CAN use a component cable to set this then change back to the HDMI cable, which would "honor' the settings one made with the component connections.

Can this be done or not?

if i recall, when i tried this it "worked" so long as i swapped from component to hdmi cables while the box was on. once it rebooted or lost power, its back to the the regular hdmi non-changeable settings.

I opened a trouble ticket over the weekend regarding the continued rebooting of my 5th 8300HDC box - it had rebooted 5 times on Saturday if I remember right.

Monday the box rebooted at 10:53am and has been up ever since. Of course, since it hasn't rebooted I now have the "not recorded because the program was not available" problem (did not record Boston Legal last night - did anyone else have that problem? I was watching the election returns).

The timing of my trouble ticket and the reboot Monday am and no reboots since there are coincidences, right? :confused:

Jim

It seems like no matter what the consumer does nowadays he/she is screwed. I recently gave DirecTV a hard look because of all the hype they put out over the "100 HD channels". This and I was looking to avoid the imminent deployment of Navigator because I want a reliable DVR solution. Well, once I witnessed the picture quality of DirecTV, it pretty much made me decide to stick with cable. I viewed both SD and HD feeds of DirecTV on THREE different sets (an LCD, DLP, and Plasma) and it was awful! There were trailing artifacts, blockiness, etc. The overcompression was horrendous. My TWC analog looked better than DirecTV HD!

The point here is this: We consumers are basically at the mercy of these massive conglomerates. We either put up with what they offer or cancel and go without. That is the bottom line. Does one cancel TWC because the crappy Navigator software only to go to DirecTV for a working DVR solution with lousy picture? I posted this issue on DBS forum and was told Dish Network is no better either by a current sub. TWC has made it clear that they have no intention of abandoning Navigator or it would have been done so already. It's like this everywhere.

Case in point: Verizon is screwing me right now after I (a long term customer) just added another line for my daughter with a two year commitment. They screwed up the billing and contract date and talking with a CSR is like pulling teeth. I questioned a basic charge that shouldn't have appeared for data usage and was told that under the new plan I'm on now that usage is billed per megabyte and not deducted from my monthly allowance and even though the button was accidentally pushed and the feature was NEVER used, I am still responsible for the charge. When I asked that this was never explained to me and that I was never charged this before the CSR didn't give a sh*t and when I politely asked for a credit in light of customer satisfaction I was told "Sorry, no can do". Keep in mind we are only talking about a couple dollars here. So, I politely replied that "I was sorry too, sorry I stuck with Verizon and glad my other contracts were up in March". However, I already know that no other carrier will be any different and if I want cell service this is just something you must accept.

What is needed here is massive customer revolt on all fronts. I mean MASS cancellations of service to cable/sat/phone, etc companies to the point where they are forced to do what the customer wants. The fact is that it will NEVER happen. It's getting to the point where I may turn off my cell service and go back to my trusty old HAM radio and cancel cable to put up and aerial with a Tivo! I could probably pick up an extra $2000 a year by scrapping these services!

Okay, Rant Over ......

So I swapped out an older DVR for the 8300HDC today and I have to say I'm not impressed. I think I'll get used to the software with time, but I have one issue that may end up making me move my other DVR (an 8300HD w/Passport) back to my plasma (Panny TH-50PZ750U). Anyone seen this?

When connected via HDMI, it seems to forget what it negotiated when I turn off the TV. For example:

- If I was on an HD channel when I turned off the TV, the box will suddenly drop to 480i within a few seconds of turning off the TV. When I turn the TV back on, I have to switch channels for it to fix itself. Is the loss in power to the HDMI port on my TV causing the box to fall back to the lowest resolution?

- If I was on an SD channel when I turn the TV off, the box forgets I have the aspect set to stretched when I turn it back on. The SD content is now in 4:3 mode, and once again, I have to switch channels for it to figure out what it is supposed to be stretching it. It retains the "stretch" setting in the menu, but it seems that turning off the TV totally screws it up for some reason.

My 8300HD never had these issues, so I assume the problem is with the new firmware/software in the HDC (or maybe just a bad box?), and it's irritating the crap out of me.

EDIT - Just found out it isn't specific to the TV being powered off, happens when switching inputs as well

So I swapped out an older DVR for the 8300HDC today and I have to say I'm not impressed. I think I'll get used to the software with time, but I have one issue that may end up making me move my other DVR (an 8300HD w/Passport) back to my plasma (Panny TH-50PZ750U). Anyone seen this?

When connected via HDMI, it seems to forget what it negotiated when I turn off the TV. For example:

- If I was on an HD channel when I turned off the TV, the box will suddenly drop to 480i within a few seconds of turning off the TV. When I turn the TV back on, I have to switch channels for it to fix itself. Is the loss in power to the HDMI port on my TV causing the box to fall back to the lowest resolution?

- If I was on an SD channel when I turn the TV off, the box forgets I have the aspect set to stretched when I turn it back on. The SD content is now in 4:3 mode, and once again, I have to switch channels for it to figure out what it is supposed to be stretching it. It retains the "stretch" setting in the menu, but it seems that turning off the TV totally screws it up for some reason.

My 8300HD never had these issues, so I assume the problem is with the new firmware/software in the HDC (or maybe just a bad box?), and it's irritating the crap out of me.

EDIT - Just found out it isn't specific to the TV being powered off, happens when switching inputs as well

Alot of these resolution and switching problems are due to the asinine HDCP copy protection. I found that I have to leave it set to 1080i all the time. If TWC would disable this, it would probably solve alot of issues. There is no legitimate reason to use it anyway. If someone wants to copy something and circumvent the HDCP they'll just use component video ...DUH!

So I swapped out an older DVR for the 8300HDC today and I have to say I'm not impressed. I think I'll get used to the software with time, but I have one issue that may end up making me move my other DVR (an 8300HD w/Passport) back to my plasma (Panny TH-50PZ750U). Anyone seen this?

When connected via HDMI, it seems to forget what it negotiated when I turn off the TV. For example:

- If I was on an HD channel when I turned off the TV, the box will suddenly drop to 480i within a few seconds of turning off the TV. When I turn the TV back on, I have to switch channels for it to fix itself. Is the loss in power to the HDMI port on my TV causing the box to fall back to the lowest resolution?

- If I was on an SD channel when I turn the TV off, the box forgets I have the aspect set to stretched when I turn it back on. The SD content is now in 4:3 mode, and once again, I have to switch channels for it to figure out what it is supposed to be stretching it. It retains the "stretch" setting in the menu, but it seems that turning off the TV totally screws it up for some reason.

My 8300HD never had these issues, so I assume the problem is with the new firmware/software in the HDC (or maybe just a bad box?), and it's irritating the crap out of me.

EDIT - Just found out it isn't specific to the TV being powered off, happens when switching inputs as well

The box expects to be continuously communicating with your TV through HDMI port as it is playing, so I guess it can easily get confused if the TV is not on; however, I would hope it will be smart enough to keep the most recent setting, instead of switching to "safe mode" and running lowest resolution. I have a very similar TV (TH-58PZ700U); I rarely turn TV off and leave DVR running, but I do it on occasion when pausing a recording for a longer time (to avoid burn in) and never had that issue. Actually, that's how I found out that the DVR has a (fairly primitive) screen saver; I have not figured out what's the timer on it. However, I never did it with the thing actually showing stuff live, only when paused, and only with existing recording; maybe when paused it stops asking questions through HDMI, so it is able to remember the last setting.
Related to this: I found that, when connected with HDMI, it is better to turn the TV on first, then the DVR, so the DVR will get a reply when it turns on and starts quering HDMI port, as otherwise it apparently gets confused in some intializations, especially menus, and does not clear it up until turned off again (for example, it will give you a misleading menu to change allowed resolutions as though you are hooked up through component; all the settings you make there are saved, but not used with HDMI connection).

Last Friday my old reliable Passport SA8300 died...I loved that it would power down and actually become silent at night as this is the box for the bedroom...so I went to the TW office to get a new box...they gave me a SA8300HDC....ok...how bad could it be...came home connected it ...activated the box and it was hate at first sight....hated the interface...it is not user friendly...luckily I am knowledgable....I set things up and the first thing I noticed was my HD channels would come in only sporadically...405 the CW for me here in the O.C. in California would not come in at all...and it is noisy...I had to unplug it at night and reboot...not a biggie but annoying...the next day ..Saturday I went to use the phone and I had a dead line...we have TW phone service....checked the modem and all the lights were off except three continuously blinking lights....I called TW on my cell phone ...it took 36 minutes for someone in tech to try and help me...he sent signals to the modem...we unplugged we did everything short of chanting and it was a no go....

I was given a service call for today Wednesday....last night I saw a TW truck in my neighborhood...pure coincedence...I dragged the TW guy into the house and he tried to boot up the modem...he asked a seemingly crazy question " Did you just get a OCAP navigator HD box?"..."Why yes I did " guess what...it was the box that threw out my phone service....they send signals in this order...cable...phone modem...cablebox...we were out of order because of the new box....ok...he made a call and in one minute I was up and running....who knew...

Today the new navigator box lost all HD stations...I went to the TW office and swapped out the box that was now a few days old...got a brand spanking new one....hooked it up...called TW to activate the box....it would not activate...broken ...

Went back to TW where now they know me...they gave a third box ...a new splitter and I asked for someone to come out and give me an amplifier which these boxes need....took the new box home...hooked it up and it is working ....Sunday the TW guy will bring me an amplifier....for right now...at this moment we are good...

In conclusion I hate this box...I loathe this box....I want to stomp on it...but it is now working...I must admit everyone at TW was curteous...helpful...friendly they are totally aware of the bugs in these boxes but they are powerless to do anything but smile and say I am so sorry....the guys who fixed my phone when they were just on the street to check things were wonderful....I am getting credit for my missed phone service...I am getting credit for the DVR service that did not work...but I would rather have my passport box back....you guys are totally right....OCRAP is fitting..TW get a clue...

Oh and no one seems to know the answer to this...supposedly these boxes have bigger hard drives.....how many HD hours do we get....my Passport gave me 20...I asked 3 TW people today and no one could tell me....one said "Well I think it records 80 hours so its half of that" huh???....so now I ask the folks who will really tell me......how many hours...anyone know...thanks.....

The 8300HD(Passport) DVR has a 160GB hard drive for recording 20 hours HD or 90 hours SD. The 8300HDC(Navigator) DVR also has the same 160GB hard drive for 20 hours HD or 90 hours SD.

http://www.cisco.com/application/pdf/en/us/guest/products/ps8613/c1650/cdccont_0900aecd806c6920.pdf

Nope, Nick is right. I posted awhile back at how ridiculous I thought releasing a new box with anything less than a minimum 320GB drive was. Personally these new units should have at least a 500GB drive PLUS eSATA support.

It seems like no matter what the consumer does nowadays he/she is screwed. I recently gave DirecTV a hard look because of all the hype they put out over the "100 HD channels". This and I was looking to avoid the imminent deployment of Navigator because I want a reliable DVR solution. Well, once I witnessed the picture quality of DirecTV, it pretty much made me decide to stick with cable. I viewed both SD and HD feeds of DirecTV on THREE different sets (an LCD, DLP, and Plasma) and it was awful! There were trailing artifacts, blockiness, etc. The overcompression was horrendous. My TWC analog looked better than DirecTV HD!

The point here is this: We consumers are basically at the mercy of these massive conglomerates. We either put up with what they offer or cancel and go without. That is the bottom line. Does one cancel TWC because the crappy Navigator software only to go to DirecTV for a working DVR solution with lousy picture? I posted this issue on DBS forum and was told Dish Network is no better either by a current sub. TWC has made it clear that they have no intention of abandoning Navigator or it would have been done so already. It's like this everywhere.

Case in point: Verizon is screwing me right now after I (a long term customer) just added another line for my daughter with a two year commitment. They screwed up the billing and contract date and talking with a CSR is like pulling teeth. I questioned a basic charge that shouldn't have appeared for data usage and was told that under the new plan I'm on now that usage is billed per megabyte and not deducted from my monthly allowance and even though the button was accidentally pushed and the feature was NEVER used, I am still responsible for the charge. When I asked that this was never explained to me and that I was never charged this before the CSR didn't give a sh*t and when I politely asked for a credit in light of customer satisfaction I was told "Sorry, no can do". Keep in mind we are only talking about a couple dollars here. So, I politely replied that "I was sorry too, sorry I stuck with Verizon and glad my other contracts were up in March". However, I already know that no other carrier will be any different and if I want cell service this is just something you must accept.

What is needed here is massive customer revolt on all fronts. I mean MASS cancellations of service to cable/sat/phone, etc companies to the point where they are forced to do what the customer wants. The fact is that it will NEVER happen. It's getting to the point where I may turn off my cell service and go back to my trusty old HAM radio and cancel cable to put up and aerial with a Tivo! I could probably pick up an extra $2000 a year by scrapping these services!

Okay, Rant Over ......

Everything Ben says is true,

There's no such thing as good customer service nowadays, unless you jump through 10 hoops do a dance, jump and wait, and maybe, just maybe you'll get a good supervisor. I don't believe that their are good deals that last either. It doesn't matter if you go with cable, dish, or the new telephone digital voice/data systems. You'll get any "deal" only temporary, than they will find some ways to raise your rates through a grandfather clause that wasn't part of "the deal." The problem is that in this day and age with the reliance on information and data technology, what can you do? Go back to free TV and rabbit ears, crappy dial-up Internet service or an unreliable phone company? It's almost gotten to the point where customers are stuck with sub-standard service, because the alternative is nothing. The problem is that today, people can't have nothing, (unless your economic situation requires basic needs for living and nothing else.)

Fortunately, we have an electronic store near where I live that has been a family owned business for over 40 years and they actually are committed to customer care like you would not believe. (The last of a dying breed.) But as far as these big corporations are concerned? Forget about it. It's in the door, run the wire, climb the pole, and get out. You call and get voice mail or some other automated crap. The techs can barely speak English, and you can't complain about that because of today's issues with sensitivity to discrimination. But all of that is underlined by a very important premise: The lack of unqualified, unskilled, poorly trained people who can't do their jobs as well as in the past.

Sorry for going off topic. But just my two cents. Now back to Navigator discussion and help.

Jack

The box expects to be continuously communicating with your TV through HDMI port as it is playing, so I guess it can easily get confused if the TV is not on; however, I would hope it will be smart enough to keep the most recent setting, instead of switching to "safe mode" and running lowest resolution. I have a very similar TV (TH-58PZ700U); I rarely turn TV off and leave DVR running, but I do it on occasion when pausing a recording for a longer time (to avoid burn in) and never had that issue. Actually, that's how I found out that the DVR has a (fairly primitive) screen saver; I have not figured out what's the timer on it. However, I never did it with the thing actually showing stuff live, only when paused, and only with existing recording; maybe when paused it stops asking questions through HDMI, so it is able to remember the last setting.
Related to this: I found that, when connected with HDMI, it is better to turn the TV on first, then the DVR, so the DVR will get a reply when it turns on and starts quering HDMI port, as otherwise it apparently gets confused in some intializations, especially menus, and does not clear it up until turned off again (for example, it will give you a misleading menu to change allowed resolutions as though you are hooked up through component; all the settings you make there are saved, but not used with HDMI connection).

What sucks is that even when I turn the DVR off, it still shows the connected resolution (always falls back to 480i). It appears that it remembers the lowest state, so even if I turn the box off while watching an HD channel, turn the TV off, then turn the TV on first followed by the box, the box never renegotiates. I think I'm just going to switch to component input until TW can get this sorted out. I doubt customer service is going to be useful, as always

Agreed Jack and sorry to all for the venting. My rant as it applies to Navigator is that TWC is IGNORING the customer. Most everyone that has or gets Navigator doesn't like or want it, yet TWC is determined to stand by it. The point is that the subscriber base should be dictating what THEY want because they are paying for it! Sure TWC runs a survey or a poll now and again but has it really accomplished anything ... EVER? I think it's just a ploy to save face so they can say "We Think Like You Think" or "The Power of You".

Awww crap ... I did it again...

I should also state that I'll be the first to give credit and send people to a business or service that does right by me. Word of mouth is VERY powerful to me. In fact, I have switched many people I know to TWC in our market because the service has been good (so far, pending the Navigator outcome). I give much credit to TWC on the Roadrunner and Digital Phone Service because these two services have been outstanding and reliable.

What sucks is that even when I turn the DVR off, it still shows the connected resolution (always falls back to 480i). It appears that it remembers the lowest state, so even if I turn the box off while watching an HD channel, turn the TV off, then turn the TV on first followed by the box, the box never renegotiates. I think I'm just going to switch to component input until TW can get this sorted out. I doubt customer service is going to be useful, as always

You got a bad box, mine does not do it (if you have Navigator 2.4.5_4; if you have 2.4.8_2, I don't know). However, I would think twice about rushing to exchange it: there are much worse issues than what you described with those boxes, and a large percentage of them are bad- sometimes you get a lemon after lemon after lemon. Your problem does not look like a terrible thing, as two workarounds are available - switch to another channel, then switch back (every time, sigh), or go to component.

You got a bad box, mine does not do it (if you have Navigator 2.4.5_4; if you have 2.4.8_2, I don't know). However, I would think twice about rushing to exchange it: there are much worse issues than what you described with those boxes, and a large percentage of them are bad- sometimes you get a lemon after lemon after lemon. Your problem does not look like a terrible thing, as two workarounds are available - switch to another channel, then switch back (every time, sigh), or go to component.

Agreed. I specifically noted last night that my box still showed the format (in this case 720p) after turning off the box. I guess one work-around is to set the power-on channel to one you don't like, then you'll always change it after turning the DVR on. ;)

Agreed. I specifically noted last night that my box still showed the format (in this case 720p) after turning off the box. I guess one work-around is to set the power-on channel to one you don't like, then you'll always change it after turning the DVR on. ;)

You got a bad box, mine does not do it (if you have Navigator 2.4.5_4; if you have 2.4.8_2, I don't know). However, I would think twice about rushing to exchange it: there are much worse issues than what you described with those boxes, and a large percentage of them are bad- sometimes you get a lemon after lemon after lemon. Your problem does not look like a terrible thing, as two workarounds are available - switch to another channel, then switch back (every time, sigh), or go to component.

Agreed, after reading a few pages of this thread, it looks like it could definately be alot worse :)

Anyone seen this article yet? (Out of Kansas City)

This is an upgrade? Time Warner Navigator woes run rampant

It's been a rough year for customers of Time Warner Cable, Kansas City's leading cable provider and possibly the leader in TV-related headaches. Time Warner would like to apologize for that, and we would like to accept its apology -- mostly, though, we hope it's learned its lesson.


The trouble started in January, when Time Warner started “upgrading” people's set-top boxes with new software to control the on-screen guide, DVR recording and other features. And then there was the ongoing soap opera with the NFL Network, which wasn't Time Warner's fault (in my opinion) but still resulted in a lot of angry customers wondering why they couldn't get the Packers-Cowboys game Nov. 29. In between, a channel-changing snafu irked some fans of A&E (the channel, not the newspaper section).

Above all, though, there was the Navigator debacle. In January I wrote that Time Warner was rolling out a new menuing system for its cable boxes. I quoted a local spokesperson who said Navigator had been developed “so we can be more responsive to our customers.” Famous last words. Since then, customers have flooded Time Warner's help lines, and my mailbox, with horror stories of sitting down to watch a recorded show, only to discover their DVRs had been wiped clean by the new software. Others were put off by the new menuing system, or driven mad by the three-second response times each time they pressed a button on their remotes, or felt like they were in a car with bad brakes each time they tried to fast-forward through a show ... the list went on.

“I have never seen my wife so frustrated with anything, (and) that is an area where she usually counsels me in patience,” wrote Chad Colgan of Lenexa. On Aug. 28, Time Warner switched his HD-DVR to Navigator, erasing the entire fourth third season of “Battlestar Galactica,” which they were saving up for one of those viewing marathons that DVR users look forward to.

Two months later, when I checked in again with the Colgans, they were still having trouble. “When the DVR works we don't have many complaints,” said Colgan, “but the 50% of the time it hangs or freezes, like a slow computer, you want to yank it out of the wall.” Not only is he considering a switch to Everest, so is his brother-in-law. His cable hasn't been upgraded yet but is spooked by Colgan's tales of woe.

That's the kind of word-of-mouth damage Navigator can do to Time Warner's business, and not just in Kansas City. Its customers in Lincoln, Neb., also got “upgraded” this year, and the ensuing debacle led the city council there to pass a resolution calling for an investigation. The city's cable advisory board concluded that Time Warner had “beta-tested” Navigator on the unsuspecting people of Lincoln. (The AVS Forum's Navigator complaint thread scores high in Google search.)

I could go on: Jim Savage, HD-DVR customer, reports that “Navigator still gives me headaches as it is still incredibly slow, poor resolution, among other issues,” months after it was installed. Rebecca Tasler: “We had been so dissatisfied with the new Navigator software that my husband talked a tech into reinstalling the old Passport software system.” After that, recorded shows looked “horrible,” were heavily pixellated — what a surprise, my Passport-enabled box is suddenly doing the same thing. So now it’s not just Navigator.

Scott Simerly, who called my attention to the troubles in Nebraska, called Navigator’s interface “downright prehistoric. I fail to see any improvements in the functionality and the keyword search is horrible in comparison to the old system (Passport).”

And yet, the vast majority of people reading this are, according to Time Warner, having no problems at all. That's because they are using set-top boxes that have been tested with Navigator and work fine. The problem, says Damon Shelby Porter of Time Warner Cable Kansas City, is that there are some four dozen different cable box models in use around the area. And while Porter said Navigator has behaved well with “97 percent” of them, getting the software to behave with them all has been a bear.

“It was tested by our lab, it was tested by our employees in their homes but -- mea culpa -- it's really taken much longer for us to iron out the problems than we had hoped,” Porter said. “We're very frustrated.”

Not as frustrated as I was when I had to return my Navigatored HD-DVR to Time Warner for a replacement. To my relief, the new DVR hasn't been upgraded, because it's a different model and Time Warner has slowed the rollout of Navigator.

There was also that matter of Time Warner moving A&E to Channel 35 without telling anyone (although technically it did warn those of you who read the legal notices in the business section). Porter said a new process was put in place so future channel changes get better publicity.

And another thing — at some point, TWCKC pulled the plug on Turner Classic Movies' secondary audio (or SAP) channel. Time Warner hadn't gotten back to me by the time I filed this report, but a reader and I each independently confirmed you can't get the audio description of many TCM films offered on the SAP channel for viewers with visual disabilities. That feature should be available to everyone with cable, set-top box or not, and needs to be restored pronto.

Channels changing: On Jan. 1 Court TV, best known for launching Nancy Grace's career and for its gavel-to-gavel coverage of headline-grabbing trials, will become truTV (small “t”). Trials will still air during the day, but the channel's new owners -- what do you know, Time Warner again! -- will expand the evening lineup to include other types of mayhem besides criminal. Among its new series are “Sky Racers,” which will follow TV news choppers; and “One False Move,” focusing on people whose jobs or adventures take them to the edge of death.

Discovery is also rebooting two of its digital-tier channels in January. Discovery Times, which was launched in 2003 as a joint venture with the New York Times, petered out after three years. It's been quietly rebuilt around in-depth documentaries, and now the channel will be known as Investigation Discovery.

Planet Green is the new name of Discovery Home & Leisure, focusing on eco-friendly programming. You may have already heard of one program it's launching in 2008, “Greensburg Eco-Town,” which will document efforts in tornado-devastated Greensburg, Kan., to rebuild using environmentally friendly materials.

Meanwhile, another year has passed without a single international news channel being added to Time Warner's -- or Comcast's, or Everest's -- digital tiers. Al Jazeera, BBC World and France 24 are all there for the taking. This lack of public responsibility in a post-9/11 era is disheartening.

Posted by Aaron Barnhart on December 07, 2007 at 07:12


Navigator is working fine with 97% of the STB's and customers according to Time Warner. This again goes to the point I made above. They either don't care or are completely clueless!

Navigator is working fine with 97% of the STB's and customers according to Time Warner. This again goes to the point I made above. They either don't care or are completely clueless!

Well that's a subjective statement. "Working fine" isn't the same as "has all the features customers have asked for". In addition, Navigator may be working fine for most people, the problem is the hardware in the box itself has issues.

So to me, the 97% comment may well be true, but it's not to be confused as an overall statement of customer satisfaction. As they say, numbers can be used to say whatever you want them to say. So instead of that stat, tell me what TWC's overall customer satisfaction is for HD subscribers.

Well that's a subjective statement. "Working fine" isn't the same as "has all the features customers have asked for". In addition, Navigator may be working fine for most people, the problem is the hardware in the box itself has issues.

So to me, the 97% comment may well be true, but it's not to be confused as an overall statement of customer satisfaction. As they say, numbers can be used to say whatever you want them to say. So instead of that stat, tell me what TWC's overall customer satisfaction is for HD subscribers.

I also hit on that in an earlier post. Even if Navigator was bug free and the DVR was as reliable as a Passport or SARA box, I still wouldn't want it. Making the software stable and the DVR reliable is only part of the battle. You still can't hide the fact that this Navigator UI is LESS FUNCTIONAL than Passport or SARA.

Many features we've come to know and love are completely gone or require a more steps to access. Many features are not as good on this "upgrade" as they were on the older software. Take the keyboard search. The Passport keyboard search had more options(title, keyword) and the response time was lightning fast. On Navigator, the resoinse time is slower than flies f---ing.

Funy story. Whie having a Navigator box for three months, I killed a set of batteries. With my Passport box I had before, I almost never had to change batteries, but Navigator's constat having to re-press buttons killed my batteries. Maybe Energizer and Duracell are behind Navigator too! :rolleyes::rolleyes:

So to me, the 97% comment may well be true, but it's not to be confused as an overall statement of customer satisfaction. As they say, numbers can be used to say whatever you want them to say. So instead of that stat, tell me what TWC's overall customer satisfaction is for HD subscribers.


I think that's what they are implying. That everything is fine with the majority and that may be why there is no action on the part of TWC to better the situation. Unless they are banking on the new lines from Cisco as the remedy.

This could be due to 2.4.8_2; indy29 started having problems with eSATA after being switched to that version as well. Apparently, 2.4.8_2 does not like eSATA drives; unfortunatelly, I don't think they are officialy supported, so probably TWC will be of no help there. I have 2.4.5_4 and eSATA drive and it works OK - I hope I don't get switched soon, as those bells and whistles are not worth giving up extra space.

Well, I might have figured out what the problem is with having an external drive. I believe that Navigator at this sw level has a problem with the drive if it has gone through a spin down. e.g. Navigator may be getting hosed when it knows there is an external drive, tries to access it at some point, and isn't waiting long enough for the spin up cycle to complete.

I've experimented with a few things, but the one I really think hits this is that I set up to have something record all of the time over the last 24 hours. No problems whatsoever. 3 hours ago, I stopped this constant recording, turned off the DVR, and just recently heard it go through it's "I'm in trouble" sequence (it actually clicks audibly on and off or something). Turned it on, and was looking at a frozen black screen.

I'm now in search of seeing if there is any way I can prevent my WD eSATA II drive from spinning down. I put in a support question to WD. If anyone knows how to change the settings within a drive to prevent spin down, would appreciate the info. Otherwise, I'll append back here with what I receive from WD.

Well, I might have figured out what the problem is with having an external drive. I believe that Navigator at this sw level has a problem with the drive if it has gone through a spin down. e.g. Navigator may be getting hosed when it knows there is an external drive, tries to access it at some point, and isn't waiting long enough for the spin up cycle to complete.

I've experimented with a few things, but the one I really think hits this is that I set up to have something record all of the time over the last 24 hours. No problems whatsoever. 3 hours ago, I stopped this constant recording, turned off the DVR, and just recently heard it go through it's "I'm in trouble" sequence (it actually clicks audibly on and off or something). Turned it on, and was looking at a frozen black screen.

I'm now in search of seeing if there is any way I can prevent my WD eSATA II drive from spinning down. I put in a support question to WD. If anyone knows how to change the settings within a drive to prevent spin down, would appreciate the info. Otherwise, I'll append back here with what I receive from WD.FWIW: I don't believe my external drive spins down (although, until now, thought that would be a good thing), but my experience has been that when the dvr goes into sleep mode (i.e., quits buffering) or when I first turn it on, the drive's led indicates that it is being accessed and it takes 4 or 5 seconds before the dvr will respond. It kinda looks like it's waiting for it to spin up.

I'm not sure what this sleep mode is. I often have one of the news channels on for long periods and find that the system has stopped buffering. One day I happened to see a yellow dialog box briefly flash on the screen saying something about sleep mode and asking me to press the A button to confirm. But it disappeared too quickly to gather what it really said.

In any case, after the delay, the system seems to function normally; none of the symptoms you describe.

Well, I might have figured out what the problem is with having an external drive. I believe that Navigator at this sw level has a problem with the drive if it has gone through a spin down. e.g. Navigator may be getting hosed when it knows there is an external drive, tries to access it at some point, and isn't waiting long enough for the spin up cycle to complete.

I've experimented with a few things, but the one I really think hits this is that I set up to have something record all of the time over the last 24 hours. No problems whatsoever. 3 hours ago, I stopped this constant recording, turned off the DVR, and just recently heard it go through it's "I'm in trouble" sequence (it actually clicks audibly on and off or something). Turned it on, and was looking at a frozen black screen.

I'm now in search of seeing if there is any way I can prevent my WD eSATA II drive from spinning down. I put in a support question to WD. If anyone knows how to change the settings within a drive to prevent spin down, would appreciate the info. Otherwise, I'll append back here with what I receive from WD.

Now that is good info. Gives me some hope that I am not hosed when (if) they upgrade me to 2.4.8_2.

...
Take the keyboard search. The Passport keyboard search had more options(title, keyword) and the response time was lightning fast. On Navigator, the resoinse time is slower than flies f---ing.
...


Mine is instantenous. It better be, considering that it only does search on the beginning of the title; any halfway compentent beginner can program that to be fast.

My question is besides a slightly better search engine what does Navigator have that sara does not. Sara has caller ID on TV,time slot recording options(Actually more than Navigator) manual recording which Navigator lacks.Sara does SDV(beimg used here in Greensboro NC on more than a dozen channels).Sara is lightling fast and almost and I do mean almost (one in two years)reliable in not missing recordings.We have a good fuel gauge on sara and can group recordings by name or date recorded.Sara actually looks better than Navigator in the gui (not as nice as passport)but lot better than Navigator.Sara is very close to passport in most features.If TWC could port Navigator to passport boxes they cold port sara to passport boxes or visa versa and I belive everyone wouls be a lot happier. Sara users can change colors to suit themselves with several choices and has great child protection. features. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

SARA can also support external hard drive and lets you offload to a VCR or DVD recorder.Also has reliable start from beginnin whie recording option. Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Agreed. Going back to what I said many posts back. Sara needs only three things to be on par with any other DVR system out there.

1) A functional search with keyboard

2) A cleaner and fresher UI

3) Ability to customize the Guide Data

That's it! Sure a 30 sec skip would be nice and maybe some other minor features or tweaks. Overall if they re-issued SARA software with those three things then I think most people would be happy.

I've had DVR service going on 3 years and the SARA software has only missed two recordings. I've had to reboot it maybe twice as well because for some reason it wasn't downloading the program info and this is an issue that TWC is aware of. I'll take that anyday over what the Navigator users are reporting.

Agreed. Going back to what I said many posts back. Sara needs only three things to be on par with any other DVR system out there.

1) A functional search with keyboard

2) A cleaner and fresher UI

3) Ability to customize the Guide Data

That's it! Sure a 30 sec skip would be nice and maybe some other minor features or tweaks. Overall if they re-issued SARA software with those three things then I think most people would be happy.

I've had DVR service going on 3 years and the SARA software has only missed two recordings. I've had to reboot it maybe twice as well because for some reason it wasn't downloading the program info and this is an issue that TWC is aware of. I'll take that anyday over what the Navigator users are reporting.

CONFLICT MANAGER!!!

xnappo

CONFLICT MANAGER!!!

xnappo

I guess so, but I personally have never had the need for it. If I try to schedule something and it can't do it, I am prompted and make an adjustment. I definitely see where that feature would be a benefit though. I concede the point to xnappo - 4 features to get SARA on par with others! :)

My question is besides a slightly better search engine what does Navigator have that sara does not. Sara has caller ID on TV,time slot recording options(Actually more than Navigator) manual recording which Navigator lacks.Sara does SDV(beimg used here in Greensboro NC on more than a dozen channels).Sara is lightling fast and almost and I do mean almost (one in two years)reliable in not missing recordings.We have a good fuel gauge on sara and can group recordings by name or date recorded.Sara actually looks better than Navigator in the gui (not as nice as passport)but lot better than Navigator.Sara is very close to passport in most features.If TWC could port Navigator to passport boxes they cold port sara to passport boxes or visa versa and I belive everyone wouls be a lot happier. Sara users can change colors to suit themselves with several choices and has great child protection. features. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I never used SARA, so I can not give you a list. The one feature I like in Navigator (and which I doubt is in SARA) is the ability to automatically record an episode (which is airing multiple times) only once, and also to schedule which airing of it to record in a way that avoid conflicts (and reschedule automatically as many times as you may introduce a potential conflict by setting up another recording). Much better than time slot recording, except for news-type shows. Also, nextoo posted a while ago some features not in Passport, I don't know how much of that applies to SARA.

The 8300HD(Passport) DVR has a 160GB hard drive for recording 20 hours HD or 90 hours SD. The 8300HDC(Navigator) DVR also has the same 160GB hard drive for 20 hours HD or 90 hours SD.

http://www.cisco.com/application/pdf/en/us/guest/products/ps8613/c1650/cdccont_0900aecd806c6920.pdf

Thanks Nickdawg for giving me the answer that 3 TW employees did not know...so far the Navigator is working ok ....I went to the TW Navigator site and a tutorial was touting things my brand new box does not have....such as banner duration and 15 minute..30 minute...45 minute fast forward....I do have caller id...big whoop....and I am getting used to unplugging the box so that I can sleep instead of hearing it humming and ticking all night long...I wonder if in the long run if this will hurt the box...anyone know?....

Anyhoo I am stuck with it...I am sucking it up and doing my best...I recorded stuff last night and will tonight on both tuners....so far so good....I did notice that if I have a 1080i station as my turn on station it will be 1080i for most stuff...no complaints there...I do have a passport box in the living room but the hubby is technically challenged...if I were to swap out the boxes he would not take it well so it is what it is....thank goodness you guys are here for support.... :)

Your right a conflict manager would be a help on sara.However with the mulitiple recording options you have I have very very few conflicts.SARA is a much more complete guide at this point than Navigator.It seems not all customer ger all of Navigators bell and whistles.

I just got an 8300HDC, and the box is stuck in 'Stretch' mode. On my 8300HD upstairs, I can just click the Zoom button to cycle through the different modes, but my new box just ignores the Zoom button when I press it.

Do I just have a bad box, or is there an alternative way to cycle through the Zoom modes?

Thanks!

I just got an 8300HDC, and the box is stuck in 'Stretch' mode. On my 8300HD upstairs, I can just click the Zoom button to cycle through the different modes, but my new box just ignores the Zoom button when I press it.

Do I just have a bad box, or is there an alternative way to cycle through the Zoom modes?

Thanks!Go to Settings, scroll sideways to Display, scroll up to Picture Size. Should be set to normal.

....I went to the TW Navigator site and a tutorial was touting things my brand new box does not have....such as banner duration and 15 minute..30 minute...45 minute fast forward....

15 minute forward jump you get by pressing and holding FF button; the other stuff is not there, unless you have 2.4.8_2.

Well, I might have figured out what the problem is with having an external drive. I believe that Navigator at this sw level has a problem with the drive if it has gone through a spin down. e.g. Navigator may be getting hosed when it knows there is an external drive, tries to access it at some point, and isn't waiting long enough for the spin up cycle to complete.

I've experimented with a few things, but the one I really think hits this is that I set up to have something record all of the time over the last 24 hours. No problems whatsoever. 3 hours ago, I stopped this constant recording, turned off the DVR, and just recently heard it go through it's "I'm in trouble" sequence (it actually clicks audibly on and off or something). Turned it on, and was looking at a frozen black screen.

I'm now in search of seeing if there is any way I can prevent my WD eSATA II drive from spinning down. I put in a support question to WD. If anyone knows how to change the settings within a drive to prevent spin down, would appreciate the info. Otherwise, I'll append back here with what I receive from WD.

Please keep me informed of this. It is similar to the problem I have. External had been working fine for about 4 months. Now when I power off overnight for instance, I can not get the HDC to turn back on. It's as if it goes into a "sleep" mode and can not come out of it. It takes a reboot to get it to work. I've pretty much given up on the external SATA for now, since two seperate HDC's and two different external SATA's all have had the same issue.

Agreed. Going back to what I said many posts back. Sara needs only three things to be on par with any other DVR system out there.

1) A functional search with keyboard

2) A cleaner and fresher UI

3) Ability to customize the Guide Data

That's it! Sure a 30 sec skip would be nice and maybe some other minor features or tweaks. Overall if they re-issued SARA software with those three things then I think most people would be happy.

I've had DVR service going on 3 years and the SARA software has only missed two recordings. I've had to reboot it maybe twice as well because for some reason it wasn't downloading the program info and this is an issue that TWC is aware of. I'll take that anyday over what the Navigator users are reporting.

Here are a couple of things that my almost 10 year old ReplayTV can do, and I think that without them, SARA can not nearly be on par with any DVR out there; you might want to ask Tivo users about what their DVR can do:

1. a) 30 - second skip. Not only is it really convenient to skip commercials, but if you have not used it when watching football, you don't know what you are missing. Play clock is 45 seconds, so if you hit 30-second skip after a play that was not interesting enough to watch again from different angles, you are instantly right at the point when they are lining up for the next play. I could easily watch a game in 45 minutes and not miss anything interesting. I tried to simulate that on Navigator with FF, spent a while trying to make a macro like that using my universal remote control, and it just is not nearly the same, partially because it is slow to FF through it, and partially because of the jump back.

b) arbitrary number of minutes skip forward or backward - if you hit, say 7, then 30-second-skip button, you jumped 7 minutes ahead instantly; if you hit 7, then instant replay button, you jumped 7 minutes back. You can quickly go to the beginning (end) of the show without menus by jumping forward a large number of minutes - longer than the show length (99 works for most things and is easy to hit). You want to see again that moment of the show that was around 22 minutes into it? Hit 99 + Instant Replay, followed by 22 + 30-second skip, and you are there instantly.

After the first month or so of using that DVR, I stopped using FF or Rewind buttons completely, as moving around was so much better using a) and b), especially considering that if you press and hold a button, its action is executed multiple times, so you can lean on 30-second skip and in a couple of seconds you are passed the commercial, or once you get an idea of how long are the breaks, you can jump ahead, say, 3 minutes and be right after the commercial. There's halftime? Jump 12 minutes.

Note: newer ReplayTVs have automatic commercial skip - you don't have to do anything during watching the show, just select that option beforehand. The company got sued for that, so it is a long shot that any DVR will support that feature.

2. You can make a complex search and make something like a series recording of it (they are called themes), even if the search, at the time you set it up, returns no records. For example, you can tell the DVR to record every show staring Charlize Theron, and to keep, say, 8 hours of them; or you can set it to record every 3 star or better SciFi movie, in addition to any simpler search that you come up with, like: "anything with the word 'fitness' in the description or the title". And, of course, your, say, Charlize Theron movies, will be grouped together in the recorded list.

3. Ability to show only channels you want, both in guide and search results (maybe SARA has this). This helps with 2.

Please keep me informed of this. It is similar to the problem I have. External had been working fine for about 4 months. Now when I power off overnight for instance, I can not get the HDC to turn back on. It's as if it goes into a "sleep" mode and can not come out of it. It takes a reboot to get it to work. I've pretty much given up on the external SATA for now, since two seperate HDC's and two different external SATA's all have had the same issue.

Do you have 2.4.8_2 or 2.4.5_4 or something else?

Thanks Nickdawg for giving me the answer that 3 TW employees did not know...so far the Navigator is working ok ....I went to the TW Navigator site and a tutorial was touting things my brand new box does not have....such as banner duration and 15 minute..30 minute...45 minute fast forward....I do have caller id...big whoop....and I am getting used to unplugging the box so that I can sleep instead of hearing it humming and ticking all night long...I wonder if in the long run if this will hurt the box...anyone know?....

Anyhoo I am stuck with it...I am sucking it up and doing my best...I recorded stuff last night and will tonight on both tuners....so far so good....I did notice that if I have a 1080i station as my turn on station it will be 1080i for most stuff...no complaints there...I do have a passport box in the living room but the hubby is technically challenged...if I were to swap out the boxes he would not take it well so it is what it is....thank goodness you guys are here for support.... :)

Hi llabine,

Please put your city/state or closest main vicinity in your profile, as it helps us with discussion, troubleshooting, and Navigator updates. (Navigator's performance is inconsistent from division to division.)

Welcome to the forums!

Jack

Here are a couple of things that my almost 10 year old ReplayTV can do, and I think that without them, SARA can not nearly be on par with any DVR out there; you might want to ask Tivo users about what their DVR can do:

1. a) 30 - second skip. Not only is it really convenient to skip commercials, but if you have not used it when watching football, you don't know what you are missing. Play clock is 45 seconds, so if you hit 30-second skip after a play that was not interesting enough to watch again from different angles, you are instantly right at the point when they are lining up for the next play. I could easily watch a game in 45 minutes and not miss anything interesting. I tried to simulate that on Navigator with FF, spent a while trying to make a macro like that using my universal remote control, and it just is not nearly the same, partially because it is slow to FF through it, and partially because of the jump back.

b) arbitrary number of minutes skip forward or backward - if you hit, say 7, then 30-second-skip button, you jumped 7 minutes ahead instantly; if you hit 7, then instant replay button, you jumped 7 minutes back. You can quickly go to the beginning (end) of the show without menus by jumping forward a large number of minutes - longer than the show length (99 works for most things and is easy to hit). You want to see again that moment of the show that was around 22 minutes into it? Hit 99 + Instant Replay, followed by 22 + 30-second skip, and you are there instantly.

After the first month or so of using that DVR, I stopped using FF or Rewind buttons completely, as moving around was so much better using a) and b), especially considering that if you press and hold a button, its action is executed multiple times, so you can lean on 30-second skip and in a couple of seconds you are passed the commercial, or once you get an idea of how long are the breaks, you can jump ahead, say, 3 minutes and be right after the commercial. There's halftime? Jump 12 minutes.

Note: newer ReplayTVs have automatic commercial skip - you don't have to do anything during watching the show, just select that option beforehand. The company got sued for that, so it is a long shot that any DVR will support that feature.

2. You can make a complex search and make something like a series recording of it (they are called themes), even if the search, at the time you set it up, returns no records. For example, you can tell the DVR to record every show staring Charlize Theron, and to keep, say, 8 hours of them; or you can set it to record every 3 star or better SciFi movie, in addition to any simpler search that you come up with, like: "anything with the word 'fitness' in the description or the title". And, of course, your, say, Charlize Theron movies, will be grouped together in the recorded list.

3. Ability to show only channels you want, both in guide and search results (maybe SARA has this). This helps with 2.

Well, Im just referring to improving the existing software. We can brainstorm all night and get great input from many users to come up with a "dream" DVR solution. If you look back at my threads, I was calling for TWC to go the route of Comcast and partner up with Tivo. That is my ideal solution and what I personally would want since I'm paying for DVR service. Plus with the new Cisco box and Ethernet/Internet ready it should be able to support the online Tivo features. Once again though, Time Warner doesn't think like we think and chooses to stay with Navigator.

Do you have 2.4.8_2 or 2.4.5_4 or something else?

Network version: 2.4.8_2
BootStrapper version 2.4.6_1

Not sure which one is used to denote your version??

Well, Im just referring to improving the existing software. We can brainstorm all night and get great input from many users to come up with a "dream" DVR solution. If you look back at my threads, I was calling for TWC to go the route of Comcast and partner up with Tivo. That is my ideal solution and what I personally would want since I'm paying for DVR service. Plus with the new Cisco box and Ethernet/Internet ready it should be able to support the online Tivo features. Once again though, Time Warner doesn't think like we think and chooses to stay with Navigator.

Yep, TWC to actually use Tivo on their boxes - now that would be nice. I'd be very willing to pay more every month for that (provided they do not get a custom, stripped down, version of Tivo). Well, maybe even then.

Network version: 2.4.8_2
BootStrapper version 2.4.6_1

Not sure which one is used to denote your version??

Network version. Apparently, 2.4.8_2 has some kind of an issue with eSATA that 2.4.5_4 (which seems to still be the prevalent version) does not; maybe your problems started when you got upgraded. Hope you guys can figure out a workaround, as TWC is probably not going to help. If they upgrade me to 2.4.8_2, I'll try to figure it out as well, I'm not giving up the extra storage without a fight. I have a different eSATA drive, though.

My guess is that they might have added a new energy-saving feature to the box, so it kind of goes to sleep, which puts the eSATA drive to sleep as well (so it spins down), then when the box wakes up, the drive is not ready and all hell breaks lose.
One thing you can try is what nmspace is going after - try to disable spin down by accessing eSATA's hidden features.
Another thing you can try is something as simple as not ever turning the box off.
Also, maybe the Navigator developers left a back-door secret code to turn this "feature" off, and may be willing to share it (OK, that one's wishful thinking, but I've seen that kind of thing happen a lot in other situations).

Actually, the coolest thing about ReplayTV, as opposed to Navigator, is that IT WORKS! I've never had to reboot it and I've never lost a recording. Eight years after buying it, it just keep plugging. Thank God I've got a backup when when Navigator screws up.

Hi llabine,

Please put your city/state or closest main vicinity in your profile, as it helps us with discussion, troubleshooting, and Navigator updates. (Navigator's performance is inconsistent from division to division.)

Welcome to the forums!

Jack

Thanks Jack for the welcome...I did just as you suggested...you are absolutely right it does help to know where folks are from....one question how do I access the build info on my Navigator....that would be helpful so that I know what I am up against......

Time Warner, New York City. SA 8300HDC.

I am now on my 3rd box in as many weeks and it looks like this one will go back shortly.

# 1 and #2 and some combination of jumping channels (as if the remote control had gone crazy), rebooting to download some sort of software upgrade in the middle of recording one program and watching another, random shut off and similar problems.

This one started taking 15 seconds to change a channel (until I rebooted it) and then recorded HD channels with picture and sound drop out every 3 seconds (works now after another reboot).

There must have been 30 or 40 people waiting on line to swap out their defective SA boxes the last time I went to the TW 23rd St. office.

It is clear to me that if SA had to sell to the public (instead of to Time Warner) their ratings on amazon.com and others would have driven them out of business a long time ago.

Similarly, if Time Warner wasn't able to pass its expenses onto its customers, it would long ago have insisted on a more reliable product that what SA is giving them.

What is really funny is that, when you call TW and finally get through to a rep, they tell you about their phone service. My thought is that, if there phone service is as unreliable as their cable service, how could you ever call them to say that nothing was working.

Finally, check out this month's Consumer Reports for cable company ratings. TW is well down toward the bottom which is, based on my experience, higher than it deserves.

Thanks Jack for the welcome...I did just as you suggested...you are absolutely right it does help to know where folks are from....one question how do I access the build info on my Navigator....that would be helpful so that I know what I am up against......

Press and hold Select button until a little icon flashes on the box (not on the screen). Then press down arrow.

Another 20 minute shutdown this morning for a "cable card firmware upgrade".

Called Time Warner (New York City). I told them again that I don't want their telephone service. They have absolutely no idea what is going on with the box.

I still don't know whether it is the software or I just have another bad box.

If I have any more problems tonight, I'll take it back tomorrow, wait on line for 1/2 hour, and swap it out again.

I wonder if the people at Cisco understand what a product like this does to their overall image.