Mike
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said you should treat memory leaks by adding more memory.

Plain fact is that a memory leak will show up quicker given less memory. Do you want to argue that?

As for dotting those "i"s and crossing those "t"s, you'll have to excuse me for not having faith that TWC will get it right...they've had what, 3 years? If it were that simple, they'd be fixed. Frankly my platform has gotten more unstable the past 3 months, not better.

Dude.

PS- You CAN add (and some companies do) more memory to lengthen time between reboots...or you can reboot more often. Which is what everyone's been doing...I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but that's what you're clearly implying (or at least its what I'm hearing). You said:I'd back off of the guy complaining about lack of memory. As a software developer who's also a consumer who's been struggling with Navigator from day 1, I can tell you he is very right to be concerned. Most of the problems I've observed are consistent with memory leaks in the Navigator application.What I'm getting out of that is "Riverside_Guy is very right to be concerned about the boxes with half as much memory because most the problems that I'm seeing with Navigator seem to be memory leaks." This implies (to me) that you believe that having more memory is a good thing when your software has memory leaks and I'm objecting to that assertion.

Memory leaks are not caused by lack of memory and having more memory to extend the time between crashes is arguably a bad thing. The more that it crashes, the more the customers will complain and the more urgent fixing the actual problem becomes. Again, memory leaks in ODN aren't necessarily present in MDN, anyway.

Just because TWC hasn't fixed these problems in what seems like a reasonable amount of time doesn't mean that they're incapable of doing it, or incapable of hiring people who are capable of fixing them. They're rolling this out nationwide now, which means that they'll either fix these problems or they will lose subscribership. They seem to be in a major hiring cycle now aimed at staffing up to improve their ability to maintain and expand this thing. We can only wait and see how that goes.

Excuse my "dudes"--though I'm originally from the midwest, I've spent too much time recently in the company of young So Cali-ites :D.

Mike
I'm not sure you came to your interpretation but I'm glad we've got that cleared up. Hopefully TWC is discussing this stuff more than we are.

...Java has always been notorious for poor "garbage collection" meaning it doesn't free up memory and allocated resources properly.
...
Java programmers have always been notorious for inadvertently leaving object references and assuming the garbage collector is going to magically figure out that those objects are no longer needed and can be destroyed. The promise of the Java safety net lulled a lot of programmers into careless programming, IMHO. Sorry for being off-topic.

-Marty

p.s. Not trying to be argumentative - just trying to show a different side of the same coin.

Regarding Java. Java Java Java. Should have never put in a system that is real-time sensitive. When my box booted for the first time and I saw the Java symbol, I knew I was f*cked. At work, we refer to Java as "Slowness built right in". My older 8300-HD was no Tivo but it makes this 8300HDC feel like a pile of junk.

Regarding memory leaks. Proper software testing is the only way to help resolve this. I feel like a DevTester for Time Warner. I think Navigator was let out the cage much too early.

Regarding the User Interface. Couldn't they have come up with something at least the equivalent of the Passport software. I knew I wasn't going to get Tivo but come on...

Well at least the external SATA drives works 1/2 the time. Thank god for small favors.

I can tell you that my SA3250 with 16mg of memory is alot faster than my SA2100 with 8meg so memory has something to do with it. This with MDN the Mt Huron version.The 3250's 30% faster clocked CPU might also contribute to the difference in speed, as well as any number of other archetectural differences in the boards. Neither of us will ever know exactly why one runs faster than the other. We don't have enough information about the exact specs of either piece of hardware or about the requirements of the software to make anything close to an educated guess.

Thanks for pointing out that MDN can run in as little as the 8 MB of RAM on your SA2100. It certainly shouldn't have problems operating in 64 MB on the Explorer 8300HD, even with the increased resource demands of a dual-tuner DVR.

Software Development---American style:

Write a spec....with ambiguities, of course and let a fixed-firm subcontract
to a hot-shot consultant and his/her team. [The Euphoric Era.]

Test the delivered software against an (incomplete) test procedure prepared
by yet another consultant....who only partially understands the magic involved....
Repeat a few times until test procedure actually represents what
software does...and vice versa. [Self fulfilling....]
[Since time has run out, skip the time consuming endurance tests.]
[And severely scale back the number of test cases run on "similar" hardware.]

If it "passes" the several dozens of specific test cases, accept software,
pay off hot-shot consultant(s) and prepare Announcement Press Release.
[Promote Program Manager, hand out atta-boys & atta-girls, reassign personnel.]

Try to get the attention of the hot-shot consultant(s) when there are problems,
but they are too busy working on the "Next Great Thing"....so even if you
threaten to sue and/or threw money at it...they're too busy to give it their ALL....
[Surely it's only going to take a month or two....or six...or more....]

Meanwhile critical (and newly promoted) programmers jump to another company
as soon as their new paycheck (proof of current salary) comes in...

Eventually declare "Mission Accomplished", while internally blaming the mess
on the "new" Program Manager....[but I just got here!!!!!]

Throw (poorly documented) code to in-house programmers to fiddle around
with until something new comes out to replace it....REPEAT CYCLE....

Recommended further reading (from mid-70's but still a classic):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month
http://www.ercb.com/feature/feature.0001.html
[It's NOT just about software cost & schedule estimating....]

Regarding Java. Java Java Java. Should have never put in a system that is real-time sensitive. When my box booted for the first time and I saw the Java symbol, I knew I was f*cked. At work, we refer to Java as "Slowness built right in". My older 8300-HD was no Tivo but it makes this 8300HDC feel like a pile of junk.

Regarding memory leaks. Proper software testing is the only way to help resolve this. I feel like a DevTester for Time Warner. I think Navigator was let out the cage much too early.

Regarding the User Interface. Couldn't they have come up with something at least the equivalent of the Passport software. I knew I wasn't going to get Tivo but come on...

Well at least the external SATA drives works 1/2 the time. Thank god for small favors.

Java was chosen because it is the only vendor-neutral solution available that would fit the requirements that the program runs anywhere in OCAP. BASIC is another one, but it has many problems. The content providers would hate it because it would have to be sent as source code, and BASIC probably one of the worst computer languages to program in. Sending source code will allow other programmers to break the DRM that prevents you from getting channels you did not pay for, so the networks will not like that. BASIC allows you to declare variables just by using them without a declaration, so a typo in a variable name will result in a buggy code. I have used BASIC, C, C++, Java, Pascal, and x86 assembly code, and writing in x86 assembly code, as bad as that is, is much harder to break due to a typo. The assembler usually will halt on a typo in a variable name and let me know where I goofed up on. The same thing usually happens in the compiler in all of the languages other than BASIC.

Java usually is slower than other languages, but there are ways to make it speed up. This depends on how it is executed. If a Java program is interpreted one instruction at a time, this results in an excellent debugging environment that is extremely slow. This uses the least memory, and is how a programmer trying to figure out what is wrong in a program should run the program until all the bugs are out. If the Java is run on a simple Just-in-Time (JIT) compiler, this speeds up the program greatly because the JIT saves translated code to memory to reuse when the same code is encountered again, saving the overhead of translation each time that piece of code is rerun. An advanced JIT can analyze the way the program runs and is able to recompile code paths that are used often into a faster code paths at the expense of making less-used code paths slower. This uses more memory because it needs to save analysis data. However, this kind of recompilation and runtime optimization can make some code run faster than if it was compiled to native machine code.

Java's garbage collection helps cut memory leaks, but it needs the programmer's help. To delete an object in memory in Java, he or she must destroy all references to that object. Java keeps a count of all references to all objects. If there are other references to the object when a reference to that object is destroyed, the object stays in memory because it is unsafe to delete. Otherwise, it is marked for deletion the next time the garbage collector runs. This prevents a programmer from deleting an object, only to find out that some other part of the program needed to keep that object around to use its contents later, causing a crash. The garbage collector is useless if the programmer never destroys all references to objects in memory that are no longer needed. Many novice programmers are aware that they must explicitly delete objects in C or C++, but forget about memory management when writing Java code thinking that it is completely automated. This causes some badly written Java programs to waste loads of memory.

Just a side note: It appears that Cox will be partnering with Tivo to release a DVR solution soon and Comcast claims that by the end of the year they will be ready for national deployment. I know that it will have to be seen, but all the preliminary stuff I have seen on Comcast Tivo looks very promising, IF they work out the glitches. One would think that if that solution could be reached in a viable manner that all cable companies would flock to it from a business standpoint. It would also be a tool to go against satellite with.... ala "We have Tivo, and they don't"

Anyway, no word on Navigator here in Central New York. We did get a whopping 4 more HD channels via SDV, so it can be confirmed that the SDV in our area is up and running.

Huh. I thought that Comcast was already offering the TiVo option on a nationwide basis. That was what my friend who works at TiVo also thought, though as a developer, it's not his department.

Since we're digressing, Cox has also partnered with Gemstar/TV Guide and appears to be poised to replace their default IPG (currently SARA in most places) with Gemstar's version of the newly acquired Passport Echo. Like Comcast, Cox will be offering TiVo's port to S-A boxes as an extra-cost option (on Comcast it has been extremely cheap).

Anyone know if TWC's suppliers (Scientific Atlanta) are coming out with a DVR with more storage space?

Anyone know if TWC's suppliers (Scientific Atlanta) are coming out with a DVR with more storage space?I don't think that they're thinkin' that way. Their solution to the higher storage needs of some customers is the external SATA drive interface.

Although a somewhat larger drive option might make sense, nothing reasonable will satisfy everyone, so stopping at 160GB in the internal drive is probably okay. Giving everyone 500GB (or more) is like seeing that 10% of your car rental customers need to do heavy hauling, and responding by giving all of them a half-ton pick-up (to draw yet another strained analogy, like yesterday's fat-guy/skinny-guy-as-relates-to-memory one :D). What they've done with the external drive is to give those customers who need it the option of hitching a trailer to the standard sedan :).

Now, all they have to do is get the external drive to work reliably (of course, it's not just the external drive that needs to be made to work reliably :rolleyes:).

I don't think that they're thinkin' that way. Their solution to the higher storage needs of some customers is the external SATA drive interface.

Although a somewhat larger drive option might make sense, nothing reasonable will satisfy everyone, so stopping at 160GB in the internal drive is probably okay. Giving everyone 500GB (or more) is like seeing that 10% of your car rental customers need to do heavy hauling, and responding by giving all of them a half-ton pick-up (to draw yet another strained analogy, like yesterday's fat-guy/skinny-guy-as-relates-to-memory one :D). What they've done with the external drive is to give those customers who need it the option of hitching a trailer to the standard sedan :).

Now, all they have to do is get the external drive to work reliably (of course, it's not just the external drive that needs to be made to work reliably :rolleyes:).I'd be happy if they'd just figure out what they did in release 2.4.8_2 that caused the external drive to quit working. It's such a shame that something that was working well, is no longer usable.:(

I have a TWC Passport 8300HD box and am able to switch tunners using the SWAP button in the PIP section on the remote control. Is their a way to do this on the Navagator 8300HDC boxes?

I have a TWC Passport 8300HD box and am able to switch tunners using the SWAP button in the PIP section on the remote control. Is their a way to do this on the Navagator 8300HDC boxes?Not unless PIP is turned on.

I don't think that they're thinkin' that way. Their solution to the higher storage needs of some customers is the external SATA drive interface.Michael, many of us have a hard time with that statement (well, at least I do). The cable companies, almost universally, have failed to support (or even acknowledge) the external hard drive. If they haven't acknowledged that it is functional, how can it be their thinking that the external drive satisfies the customer needs for more storage?

Michael, many of us have a hard time with that statement (well, at least I do). The cable companies, almost universally, have failed to support (or even acknowledge) the external hard drive. If they haven't acknowledged that it is functional, how can it be their thinking that the external drive satisfies the customer needs for more storage?

Dave - I think Michael was saying that external HDs is SA's solution for high-end customers who want more space. The fact that the cable cos don't support it is a separate issue I think.

xnappo

Dave - I think Michael was saying that external HDs is SA's solution for high-end customers who want more space. The fact that the cable cos don't support it is a separate issue I think.

xnappoI see your point ("it all depends on what 'they're' means").

But if 80GB was sufficient for SD, you'd think that "sufficient" for HD would be 6x80GB = 480GB (or 500).

I agree with Dave...I can carry like 10 movies on my DVR and that's it. I'm not sure what kind of hard drive and external case to buy that won't mess up with the 8300HDC

Dave - I think Michael was saying that external HDs is SA's solution for high-end customers who want more space. The fact that the cable cos don't support it is a separate issue I think.

xnappo
They may not "support" eSATA, but it does work with some Navigator, most SARA
and most Passport operating systems (only the latter has the FF/RW "bug".)
[And presumably they'll make sure it works with Navigator....]

So they "support" eSATA "MORE" than they support Federally Mandated Firewire...
Never has worked right in SA8300HD....gotta pay extra for SA3250HD...

And Federally Mandated HDMI is only now reluctantly "supported"...HA!!!
Just try to get them to fix any of the several, still flaky HDMI I/F problems....

I see your point ("it all depends on what 'they're' means").I was answering a question of whether "TWC's suppliers (Scientific Atlanta)" were coming out with a larger drive option, so "they" are SciAtl/Cisco. To tell you the truth, I feel quite certain that if TWC asked for 100,000 pieces with 500MB internal drives, SciAtl/Cisco would make a price for them and deliver with a smile. I'm sure that their major customers get what they want the way that they want it when they want it :).

I think that a 250MB internal drive, ala TiVo S3, wouldn't be terribly wasteful overkill for Joe Average HDTV watcher (storage for about 32.5 hours of 17 Mbps content), but it would be even better for the cable providers to support the external drive.

I think that a 250MB internal drive, ala TiVo S3, wouldn't be terribly wasteful overkill for Joe Average HDTV watcher (storage for about 32.5 hours of 17 Mbps content), but it would be even better for the cable providers to support the external drive.It'd be better for us; I'm not so sure about TW. I always figured that they shyed away from support of external drives because they knew they'd get a support call every time some snot-licker had a problem with something he cobbled together. As long as they maintain an arm's length tolerance, they signal that if we plug one in, we're on our own. If it works, good for you; if not, tough $hit.

Exactly.
Why bother "supporting" different size eSATA HDDs when interested users can DIY???

Oh yeah....they also parted ways with the Aptiv Digital programming farce....err, force....

With Navigator, it becomes a bit more difficult for TWC not to support the external drive while allowing it to work in reality. If it works, why should it? They had an excuse when it worked because of something that SciAtl or Aptiv put in the code, but that's gone now. If they don't intend for it to be a supported feature, why is there code in the product to make it work, when they control exactly what code is in the product? People say that it stopped working in the latest update, and that may very well be on purpose.

They should support it like TiVo, with one or more external drive products as specified by them being recognized by the box and fully supported by the local cable provider. That'd exclude people calling them out on service calls because arbitrarily cobbled together retail drives and SATA enclosures aren't working properly. I know that I wouldn't want to have to try to support that. It must be bad enough having to try to diagnose problems with arbitrary cable modems.

I would just like to throw out that while we are seeing performance improvements with Navigator such as lost recordings not so much of an issue, and less of the dreaded "channel not available" bug, there are still tons of problems with the slowness and clunkiness of the new system. Responses are still based on what I have seen 80% hate Navigator, while only about 20% like it.

What I would really like to hear from TWC or anyone is, what exactly makes this an "upgrade?" because there are still so many people that hate this new guide. Wouldn't it be logical that after two years of testing that TWC could get this thing right or else abandon the project, or bring in some mediator to work out a deal with Tivo or something to get this thing not only working up to quality standards but LIKABLE?

We've had maybe 3 people on the board who like the guide and that's all. I don't know, I would just wish that I could get something positive about this thing that TWC is scheduled to download to my box before the end of this month, if not within a matter of days to a week. Were ALL of these TWC employees brainwashed into a con sales pitch about how great this software was? But even more important, since this is now going nationwide, what is TWC doing to work out the bugs?

There is one interesting observation from Navigator supporters who may be in the minority, but they raise a great point: If Navigator is as bad as it is believed to be by so many people, why aren't TWC's call centers over-flowing with complaints? Or, are people complaining and we just aren't hearing about it?

Jack

Question about Navigator.On Sara we have the option to record to a vcr or dvd burner.This is a option I use often.Does Navigator have such a option?Sara has it and I think Passport and Tivo both have it also.It would be a bummer if Navigator did not have it.This lack of a feature might make me consider Tivo again. SARA 1.89.17.1

It'd be better for us; I'm not so sure about TW. I always figured that they shyed away from support of external drives because they knew they'd get a support call every time some snot-licker had a problem with something he cobbled together. As long as they maintain an arm's length tolerance, they signal that if we plug one in, we're on our own. If it works, good for you; if not, tough $hit.

On the subject of external storage: We have to be careful what we wish for and how it ends up being gone about. Dish Network has a plan in the works that activates external storage , but you have TO PAY FOR it. They are selling it as a feature. I'd really hate to see TWC do the same thing.

Here's my take on it. TWC should officially support it, but limit said support to a specific drive or line of drives. IE: Western Digital has a custom drive (My DVR Expander) that is specifically designed for the 8300. I could see them coming out with a line of different sized drives and having TWC support those drives officially. In other words, these are what are approved to work and anything else is at you own risk.

On the subject of external storage: We have to be careful what we wish for and how it ends up being gone about. Dish Network has a plan in the works that activates external storage , but you have TO PAY FOR it. They are selling it as a feature. I'd really hate to see TWC do the same thing.



?? It is a small one time charge(like $30 or something). I would gladly pay that for guaranteed support. I am very worried that they will never fix the Navigator issues. Someone mentioned that they thought there was another symptom related to the external drives issue that occurred with just the normal setup. Anyone remember what it was?

xnappo

Yea, I thought it was a monthly fee, but they charger a one time fee of $39.99 and you can "daisy chain" multiple drives via USB 2.0. That seems worth it to me.

But look at this from a TWC standpoint. This could be a revenue opportunity. They could lease the drives for a nominal fee if they wanted to and if they really wanted to be bastards, they could make it proprietary. Of course, I may have to delete this because I don't want them to get any ideas!

TWC Manhattan. Navigator. SA8300HDC.

We just installed our new (3rd) box.

Like its predecessor (and especially when watching a recorded program), the box, on its own, - changes channels; lights up the guide and scrolls through to another channel: - shuts itself off; moves the yellow volume indicator up or down - or some combination of the above.

This can happen more than once in an hour.

It as if someone is pushing buttons on a phantom remote control.

Does anybody else have these issues?

Is there any documentation of the cause?

Defective box? Problem in the wires? Problem with the signals.

I don't want to swap the box out again or get a service call until I know what the problem is.

Thank you.

Question about Navigator.On Sara we have the option to record to a vcr or dvd burner.This is a option I use often.Does Navigator have such a option?Sara has it and I think Passport and Tivo both have it also.It would be a bummer if Navigator did not have it.This lack of a feature might make me consider Tivo again. SARA 1.89.17.1TiVo has the feature, but Passport Echo does not. I have no idea whether Navigator does, but I suspect not.

It's nice to have a formal feature for this, but you can always just play a recording while manipulating the VCR or DVD recorder manually. There are people who use Passport who make such recordings regularly; I've read discussions of doing it in online forums.

Here's my take on it. TWC should officially support it, but limit said support to a specific drive or line of drives. IE: Western Digital has a custom drive (My DVR Expander) that is specifically designed for the 8300. I could see them coming out with a line of different sized drives and having TWC support those drives officially. In other words, these are what are approved to work and anything else is at you own risk.I suggested that in a post above (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13316495#post13316495)--this is what TiVo is doing. People found a hack for activating the SATA drive feature in the Series3 before TiVo had officially released it, so they let folks continue to use arbitrary drives with it (without support), but the TiVo HD did not allow that hack out of the box, and will not recognize any drive that they don't support (currently only the 500GB WD My DVR Expander). The TiVo HD will simply not use any other external drive. If you call them for help with another drive on an S3, they can remotely determine the model and won't help you with anything other than the drives that they support.

I would just like to throw out that while we are seeing performance improvements with Navigator such as lost recordings not so much of an issue, and less of the dreaded "channel not available" bug, there are still tons of problems with the slowness and clunkiness of the new system. Responses are still based on what I have seen 80% hate Navigator, while only about 20% like it.

What I would really like to hear from TWC or anyone is, what exactly makes this an "upgrade?" because there are still so many people that hate this new guide. Wouldn't it be logical that after two years of testing that TWC could get this thing right or else abandon the project, or bring in some mediator to work out a deal with Tivo or something to get this thing not only working up to quality standards but LIKABLE?

We've had maybe 3 people on the board who like the guide and that's all. I don't know, I would just wish that I could get something positive about this thing that TWC is scheduled to download to my box before the end of this month, if not within a matter of days to a week. Were ALL of these TWC employees brainwashed into a con sales pitch about how great this software was? But even more important, since this is now going nationwide, what is TWC doing to work out the bugs?

There is one interesting observation from Navigator supporters who may be in the minority, but they raise a great point: If Navigator is as bad as it is believed to be by so many people, why aren't TWC's call centers over-flowing with complaints? Or, are people complaining and we just aren't hearing about it?

JackSo far as I know, only TWC is calling it an "upgrade" and that's just marketing. Without the bugs, I'd definitely call it superior to SARA (I can't imagine anyone publishing anything that I'd consider inferior to SARA, which is probably hands down the worst piece of commercial software that I've used in recent years :rolleyes:; I might prefer it to SARA even with the bugs), however, AFAICT it doesn't do anything that Passport Echo can't (other than Caller ID for cable phone and matching VOD content in guide keyword searches).

None of these things has been a picnic in the beginning. I got Passport Echo at 1.5.xxx and there have been several releases since then that were so buggy as to be nearly unusable; locally we had to live with those releases for months. It took years for Passport Echo to acheive its current level of stability. Up to this point, Navigator has been in beta test forced on some unlucky communities, so the clock on it maturing really starts now. The more folks pounding on it the more problems will be found, so they will get a bunch of new complaints.

As to why TWC is doing this, I don't know. Whatever, their reasons, they seem extremely committed to it.

I would just like to throw out that while we are seeing performance improvements with Navigator such as lost recordings not so much of an issue, and less of the dreaded "channel not available" bug, there are still tons of problems with the slowness and clunkiness of the new system. Responses are still based on what I have seen 80% hate Navigator, while only about 20% like it.I've tried to point out before that forums such as this naturally attract people who are having problems and that postings and opinions will tend to be skewed to the negative. You therefore can't draw accurate conclusions about what percentage like or dislike Navigator.

As to "slowness and clunkiness", I can't figure out where you're getting that. I've only had Navigator for a few months, and I've had every problem in the book (and 3 boxes), but "slowness and clunkiness" is not one of them. Its responsiveness has been quite acceptable.

We've had maybe 3 people on the board who like the guide and that's all. I don't know, I would just wish that I could get something positive about this thing that TWC is scheduled to download to my box before the end of this month, if not within a matter of days to a week. Were ALL of these TWC employees brainwashed into a con sales pitch about how great this software was? But even more important, since this is now going nationwide, what is TWC doing to work out the bugs?On a scale from 1 to 10, my opinion of Navigator is about a 5 or 6. A month ago it would have been 2 or 3. If they'd fix the external drive issue, it'd be about 8. My last reboot was 2/8/08 (self-inflicted) and since the latest release, it has been solid.

I don't like getting into discussions about the appearance of the guide per se because it is such a subjective issue. All I want is an interface that makes it easy to access the program schedule, easy to set up and manage my recordings, trust that my programs will be recorded, and provide a high quality playback of my recordings. By that criteria, Navigator has delivered. If you already have a box that's been reliable, you'll probably be OK when the "change" occurs. Despite all hand-wringing we read here, I can assure you that it's not going to melt your entertainment center, blow up your TV, or give your dog cancer.

TiVo has the feature, but Passport Echo does not. I have no idea whether Navigator does, but I suspect not.

It's nice to have a formal feature for this, but you can always just play a recording while manipulating the VCR or DVD recorder manually. There are people who use Passport who make such recordings regularly; I've read discussions of doing it in online forums.

Your right but with Sara I can record a show to dvd burner record 2 shows at once and watch a recorded show at the same time. Sara 1.89.17.1

So far as I know, only TWC is calling it an "upgrade" and that's just marketing. Without the bugs, I'd definitely call it superior to SARA (I can't imagine anyone publishing anything that I'd consider inferior to SARA, which is probably hands down the worst piece of commercial software that I've used in recent years :rolleyes:; I might prefer it to SARA even with the bugs), however, AFAICT it doesn't do anything that Passport Echo can't (other than Caller ID for cable phone and matching VOD content in guide keyword searches).

I disagree with your assessment of the SARA software for the simple fact that IT WORKS! I will concede that it is butt ugly and lacks a usable search engine and some features that are now stand in other platforms, but my current version has missed a total of 2 recordings in two years. How many Navigator users can say that? I've only had to reboot it maybe twice as well. Say what you want about the SARA software, but it does exactly what it is supposed to do: provide stable and reliable DVR platform.

I disagree with your assessment of the SARA software for the simple fact that IT WORKS! I will concede that it is butt ugly and lacks a usable search engine and some features that are now stand in other platforms, but my current version has missed a total of 2 recordings in two years. How many Navigator users can say that? I've only had to reboot it maybe twice as well. Say what you want about the SARA software, but it does exactly what it is supposed to do: provide stable and reliable DVR platform.Sorry, but I've railed on and on in these forums about how much I hated SARA. It's the most unprofessional piece of crap I have ever seen. I've seen far prettier, more reliable and far more ergonomic software designs out of not-particularly-talented high-school students. I could not hate it more. I hated it so much, that I cheerfully pulled $900 out of my pocket to buy a TiVo Series3 and 3 years service rather than use it--while I was using Passport I would never have considered the expense of switching to TiVo. It doesn't matter if something does what it's designed to do if what it's designed to do sucks so very, very, very badly. You couldn't pay me to store an STB running SARA in my home (well, if the payment was high enough, maybe, if I could store it someplace out of sight).

There is no doubt in my mind that I would have been happier using the original Lincoln beta test version of Navigator than I was using SARA. No doubt whatsoever, even having read the reams of complaints posted here. Every secondof my experience using SARA was almost physically painful--I'm convinced that it took years off my life.

Let's drop this line of discussion--my blood pressure is rising just thinking about it.

TWC Manhattan. Navigator. SA8300HDC.

We just installed our new (3rd) box.

Like its predecessor (and especially when watching a recorded program), the box, on its own, - changes channels; lights up the guide and scrolls through to another channel: - shuts itself off; moves the yellow volume indicator up or down - or some combination of the above.

This can happen more than once in an hour.

It as if someone is pushing buttons on a phantom remote control.

Does anybody else have these issues?

Is there any documentation of the cause?

Defective box? Problem in the wires? Problem with the signals.

I don't want to swap the box out again or get a service call until I know what the problem is.

Thank you.

Just out of curiousity, have you swapped remotes as well as boxes? I got one of the new remotes with my Samsung box and it was so touchy as to be unusable. If you tried to key in a channel number, for example 702, the box would switch to chan. 77 before the 0 was entered or sometimes 770. I ended up swapping out the remote. Your remote just might have a stuck key on it somewhere.

Anyone in the Raleigh/Cary area had their old 8300HD transitioned over to Navigator yet?

Sorry, but I've railed on and on in these forums about how much I hated SARA. It's the most unprofessional piece of crap I have ever seen. I've seen far prettier, more reliable and far more ergonomic software designs out of not-particularly-talented high-school students. I could not hate it more. I hated it so much, that I cheerfully pulled $900 out of my pocket to buy a TiVo Series3 and 3 years service rather than use it--while I was using Passport I would never have considered the expense of switching to TiVo. It doesn't matter if something does what it's designed to do if what it's designed to do sucks so very, very, very badly. You couldn't pay me to store an STB running SARA in my home (well, if the payment was high enough, maybe, if I could store it someplace out of sight).

There is no doubt in my mind that I would have been happier using the original Lincoln beta test version of Navigator than I was using SARA. No doubt whatsoever, even having read the reams of complaints posted here. Every secondof my experience using SARA was almost physically painful--I'm convinced that it took years off my life.

Let's drop this line of discussion--my blood pressure is rising just thinking about it.
I think TIVO fanatics are in need of therapy! I am quite happy with SARA and as other posters have commented, it does the job and seamlessly. The main objection to SARA seems to be the lack of "search". I have easily solved that problem by using an online TV search at zap2it.com. The computer search works better than any TV box - yes even TIVO (just put on my armoured suit). With the computer I can search by all sorts of criteria. Then I locate that show on the DVR & record it. With the TWC package, the DVR is essentially free vs. big bux for a TIVO and monthly fee plus SDV problems.

I am dreading the day when Navigator is downloaded here. Fortunately we have not been notified of Navigator here in Hawaii. I have wanted to get a SATA drive which will work while we still have SARA but don't want to bother if it won't work with Navigator when it eventually arrives here.

Question about Navigator.On Sara we have the option to record to a vcr or dvd burner.This is a option I use often.Does Navigator have such a option?Sara has it and I think Passport and Tivo both have it also.It would be a bummer if Navigator did not have it.This lack of a feature might make me consider Tivo again. SARA 1.89.17.1

I never had this option under Passport (on my non-HD 8300 box). I had to basically watch the show I wanted copied to VHS/DVD. And if I brought up the Guide or whatever, that would end up in the recording. I know the SA boxes had this feature (presumably under SARA), but it was most definitely not there with my version of Passport/Echo. As for my 8300HDC and Navigator, the same rules apply. I can watch and essentially put the signal out on OUT2 to record, but I have to watch it (can't switch channels) and make sure to not bring up the Guide or Info.

I think TIVO fanatics are in need of therapy! I am quite happy with SARA and as other posters have commented, it does the job and seamlessly. The main objection to SARA seems to be the lack of "search". I have easily solved that problem by using an online TV search at zap2it.com. The computer search works better than any TV box - yes even TIVO (just put on my armoured suit). With the computer I can search by all sorts of criteria. Then I locate that show on the DVR & record it. With the TWC package, the DVR is essentially free vs. big bux for a TIVO and monthly fee plus SDV problems.

I am dreading the day when Navigator is downloaded here. Fortunately we have not been notified of Navigator here in Hawaii. I have wanted to get a SATA drive which will work while we still have SARA but don't want to bother if it won't work with Navigator when it eventually arrives here.Don't accuse me of being a TiVo fanatic because I definitely don't qualify. I have many criticism of its basic functions (though much praise as well--its guide search facility is exemplary) and no personal use for the ton of network enabled fluff that they've heaped on it. I was forced to buy it by the utter, profound unusability of SARA. I would never have considered it if I hadn't moved away from my TWC neighborhood (where I was happy with Passport Echo) into one served by Cox, who insultingly foist SARA on me as a pitiful excuse for a DVR IPG.

I'm glad that you find SARA to your liking, but I'd much rather use a horribly broken box if it has some shred of elegance in its user interface. If there'd been no alternative to SARA, I would have stopped recording HDTV and watched only what I could manage in real-time, ads and all. Time-shifting television is not nearly worth the rage and frustration that use of SARA caused me.

Again, it's not worth defending SARA to me--my mind is more than made up. I've spent many years designing user-interface for commercial consumer electronics and I know what I like and what I can't tolerate.

The VCR/DVD recording feature is really great because you don't have to actually watch the show during the recording. You can also keep an eye on the recording using the PIP window. However, the recording output is only SDTV on output #2. When affordable Blue-Ray recorders hit the market hopefully in a year or so, that feature will no longer be useful. At this point, I find myself watching HDTV almost exclusively and don't seem so motivated to record any of the shows in SDTV.

Michael: I was just joking with you. But you have to admit there are a lot of Tivophiles are are, shall we say, zealous about their TIVOs.

Still having HDMI issues. Resolution changes back to 480I every night and at times when switching between standard and HD channels. Very, very annoying.

How about taking the SARA is great, SARA stinks stuff elsewhere and get back to Navigator.

The VCR/DVD recording feature is really great because you don't have to actually watch the show during the recording. You can also keep an eye on the recording using the PIP window. However, the recording output is only SDTV on output #2. When affordable Blue-Ray recorders hit the market hopefully in a year or so, that feature will no longer be useful. At this point, I find myself watching HDTV almost exclusively and don't seem so motivated to record any of the shows in SDTV.

Michael: I was just joking with you. But you have to admit there are a lot of Tivophiles are are, shall we say, zealous about their TIVOs.

I record content from the hd channels from my 8300hd all the time.You do not get hd picture but a very high quality digital picture.You show try it I think you might be suprised how well they turn out.

How about taking the SARA is great, SARA stinks stuff elsewhere and get back to Navigator.

I agree.I have both Pasport and Sara.Beach house Passport, home Sara.Both have good and bad points..Passport is a little better because of search.Sara has no real search but couple other features Passport lacks.All in all I would call them a draw.Yes I have had Tivo and had issues with that also.But as Dave says this is a Navigator board on lets focus on that.

TWC Manhattan. Navigator. SA8300HDC.

We just installed our new (3rd) box.

Like its predecessor (and especially when watching a recorded program), the box, on its own, - changes channels; lights up the guide and scrolls through to another channel: - shuts itself off; moves the yellow volume indicator up or down - or some combination of the above.

This can happen more than once in an hour.

It as if someone is pushing buttons on a phantom remote control.

Does anybody else have these issues?

Is there any documentation of the cause?

Defective box? Problem in the wires? Problem with the signals.

I don't want to swap the box out again or get a service call until I know what the problem is.

Thank you.You are the only one I can recall who has reported this problem. The fact that it has occurred on two different boxes make me think you some soft of IR source that is getting picked up by your box. One thing I like about the 8300HDC is that it is very sensitive to the remote. I can easily send remote commands without having to point the remote directly at the box.

Have you tried completely covering your front panel with something opaque? If that solves your problem, then you need to start looking for the IR source. One trick that might help you is to use a camera phone as an IR detector. Many phone cameras (and digital cameras) can see IR. To test it, enable your camera, point the remote at it, and press a button. If you see the light on your camera screen, you can darken your room and use the camera to look for IR sources.

I have an iRobot carpet cleaner that has a docking station that emits an IR beam that the cleaner uses to dock itself. I once had the docking station pointing in the general direction of my TV and it jammed the remote for every component in my entertainment center.

>You are the only one I can recall who has reported this problem. The fact that it has occurred on two different boxes make me think you some soft of IR source that is getting picked up by your box<

I appreciate your feedback. If this is not a problem for others, then clearly there is something going on here and I need to find out what.

For example, my BOSE system shuts off by itself (perhaps every second or third day) but that uses an entirely different remote system from the SA box. I've spoken with BOSE and they have no idea what the issue is (not in their data base). The problems may be related; perhaps not.

I'll post whatever I find out so that this thead can be completed in case it happens to someone else.

I did replace the replace the surge protector with a new Belkin unit but that didn't help.

It has been suggested that there is a problem with the remote itself so I'm going to make sure it is not pointed at the set except when in use.

I've emailed both TWC and SA and am awaiting a response.

Meanwhile, I'll try your camera trick.

One trick that might help you is to use a camera phone as an IR detector. Many phone cameras (and digital cameras) can see IR. To test it, enable your camera, point the remote at it, and press a button. If you see the light on your camera screen, you can darken your room and use the camera to look for IR sources.

Now that is dang neat trick--works w/ my camera phone and remote.

I also had the thought that there might be another IR source, but didn't know an IR detector was so readily available ;)

TWC Manhattan. Navigator. SA8300HDC.

We just installed our new (3rd) box.

Like its predecessor (and especially when watching a recorded program), the box, on its own, - changes channels; lights up the guide and scrolls through to another channel: - shuts itself off; moves the yellow volume indicator up or down - or some combination of the above.

This can happen more than once in an hour.

It as if someone is pushing buttons on a phantom remote control.

Does anybody else have these issues?

Is there any documentation of the cause?

Defective box? Problem in the wires? Problem with the signals.

I don't want to swap the box out again or get a service call until I know what the problem is.

Thank you.
I've seen a few reports of users who had problems with their PLASMA
set interfering with their R/C...probably due to IR emissions from the set.

Apparently this isn't seen in LCDs....but unknown if this occurs with new LED backlight LCDs.....

>You are the only one I can recall who has reported this problem. The fact that it has occurred on two different boxes make me think you some soft of IR source that is getting picked up by your box<

I appreciate your feedback. If this is not a problem for others, then clearly there is something going on here and I need to find out what.

For example, my BOSE system shuts off by itself (perhaps every second or third day) but that uses an entirely different remote system from the SA box. I've spoken with BOSE and they have no idea what the issue is (not in their data base). The problems may be related; perhaps not.

I'll post whatever I find out so that this thead can be completed in case it happens to someone else.

I did replace the replace the surge protector with a new Belkin unit but that didn't help.

It has been suggested that there is a problem with the remote itself so I'm going to make sure it is not pointed at the set except when in use.

I've emailed both TWC and SA and am awaiting a response.

Meanwhile, I'll try your camera trick.

The only explanations I can think of is that someone is bullying you, or someone has similar equipment to yours. There are programs that allow PDAs and smart phones to emulate remotes using their IR ports, and universal remotes that have these IR codes already built into their databases. While they can help when you lose your remote or if your remote breaks, they also can be used to play some nasty pranks. If it is a neighbor with similar equipment, both you and the neighbors need to rearrange your equipment to avoid each others' remote commands. If it is a case of bullying, sue the idiot or idiots under your local nuisance laws, and report them to http://www.rottenneighbor.com/.

>I've seen a few reports of users who had problems with their PLASMA
set interfering with their R/C...probably due to IR emissions from the set.<

I have some info on that. My former SHARP AQUOS LCD set caused a problem with my General Instrument analog box remote.

It was sometimes necessary to push a remote button several times to have the signal received by the box. More complicated programming was easier done with the buttons on the box itself rather than dealing with the remote.

The issue disappeared when I got a Sony TV set.

This is, as far as I know, an undocumented issue that was not acknowledged by TWC, JERROLD or SHARP.

>The only explanations I can think of is that someone is bullying you, or someone has similar equipment to yours<

Thanks.

That could be possible with BOSE that uses some sort of radio remote; but I don't see how the SA nfrared line-of-site signal can go through walls. The TV doesn't face a window and is two walls away from the nearest neighbor (we are at the end of a hallway).

When I figure it out, I'll post it here.

Anyone in the Raleigh/Cary area had their old 8300HD transitioned over to Navigator yet?

Not me--still nervously waiting...

The only explanations I can think of is that someone is bullying you, or someone has similar equipment to yours. There are programs that allow PDAs and smart phones to emulate remotes using their IR ports, and universal remotes that have these IR codes already built into their databases. While they can help when you lose your remote or if your remote breaks, they also can be used to play some nasty pranks. If it is a neighbor with similar equipment, both you and the neighbors need to rearrange your equipment to avoid each others' remote commands. If it is a case of bullying, sue the idiot or idiots under your local nuisance laws, and report them to http://www.rottenneighbor.com/.

I have heard rumors of people with similar radio/TV frequencies using universal remotes to "phantom" signals. Sometimes however, a similar piece of electronic or magnetic equipment will innocently make other electronic equipment do strange things. But are you picking up transmissions from other sources such as a garage door opener or some other type of electronic device in the house or in your neighborhood? Do you have a radio or TV station nearby? Are other neighbors experiencing the same problems? How long has this been happening? Is there a certain time of the day or night when this happens, and when it happens how long before it stops? You may want to exchange your remote control if the problem persists? (But don't let anyone know if you do that.)

Jack

PS. Or maybe you have a ghost in your house that likes to watch cable TV! LOL!

When is the albany area going to recieve the Time Warner Cable Navigator software for their boxes, because the ones with the cablecard has some issues like freezing and other problems with their cable boxes?

I sling Java code for a living. Here are my thoughts

1) Java is indeed slower than compiled C/C++ code

2) It's not THAT much slower. You can build some very efficient apps in Java.

3) It can use a lot of memory; the GC helps a lot but as with all languages, leaks can be a problem


There's no excuse for how craptastic this Mystro/Navigator garbage. Seeing that little Java logo on boot up embarasses me.

That being said, I don't write GUI apps in Java, I do it in C# :)

I've tried to point out before that forums such as this naturally attract people who are having problems and that postings and opinions will tend to be skewed to the negative. You therefore can't draw accurate conclusions about what percentage like or dislike Navigator.

I agree.


As to "slowness and clunkiness", I can't figure out where you're getting that. I've only had Navigator for a few months, and I've had every problem in the book (and 3 boxes), but "slowness and clunkiness" is not one of them. Its responsiveness has been quite acceptable.
...
I find it "slow and clunky".

For example, scrolling though the channel guide. With Passport, after holding the page up/dn button for a couple seconds, it would zoom along. Navigator tries to "zoom" but it's just not very zoomy. Passport also let you hit the 00 button and page to the next multiple of 100 channel.

After basically any button I hit on the remote, there is a delay. It sits there for like a second or two while I'm wondering if it recognized the command or not. Sometimes I hit the button again, negating the effect of the first command. For example, I press Info. While I wait for the info window to appear, I think I missed it and press Info again. Finally the Info window appears and then disappears immediately because it really saw both Info presses, it just took a while to process the first one.

Using the down arrow to scroll through the channel guide one channel at a time, each channel is highlighted and the corresponding short description is displayed. Sometimes, however, the cursor will move (highlighting the next channel) but the descriptive test will take 2 - 3 seconds to change, such that for channel 4 I am still seeing the description of what is on channel 3.

And the fast forward/rewind just sucks. It tries to work the same as Passport used to, but it just doesn't work nearly as well because it's too damn "slow and clunky". ;)

Those are just a few examples off the top of my head of what I consider to be "slow and clunky". Not bad enough to make it unusable, just enough to be annoying and make me think "the old software didn't do this..."

-Marty

You are the only one I can recall who has reported this problem. The fact that it has occurred on two different boxes make me think you some soft of IR source that is getting picked up by your box. One thing I like about the 8300HDC is that it is very sensitive to the remote. I can easily send remote commands without having to point the remote directly at the box.

Have you tried completely covering your front panel with something opaque? If that solves your problem, then you need to start looking for the IR source. One trick that might help you is to use a camera phone as an IR detector. Many phone cameras (and digital cameras) can see IR. To test it, enable your camera, point the remote at it, and press a button. If you see the light on your camera screen, you can darken your room and use the camera to look for IR sources.

I have an iRobot carpet cleaner that has a docking station that emits an IR beam that the cleaner uses to dock itself. I once had the docking station pointing in the general direction of my TV and it jammed the remote for every component in my entertainment center.
I was thinking the exact same thing when he said he had the problem with multiple boxes, and now also his Bose gear.

That is a cool trick with the camera phone. Never heard that before. I just tried it with my digital camera (Konica Minolta Dimage X50) and it worked!

Thanks,
-Marty

When is the albany area going to recieve the Time Warner Cable Navigator software for their boxes, because the ones with the cablecard has some issues like freezing and other problems with their cable boxes?It will only get worse with Navigator. It appears that many problems that Navigator users are seeing (at least those with the CC boxes) are due to the CC (or the firmware associated with that).

A good tip!

If you are still running Passport and you haven't rebooted your box for say a month or more, and you know that Navigator is coming to your area within a week or so, UNPLUG your box for several seconds to a minute and than plug it back in. (Don't just do a hold the power button in and wait for the word "Boot" on the display. Known as a warm reboot.) Do a cold reboot by unplugging the box to get any intrusive data out. This will at least insure that your box is at least starting with fresh data around when the change over happens, if the date is unknown.

If you have a scheduled download date, the less that you have your box doing at the time, the better the transition might go. Try not to be watching and recording multiple content on the night of the change-over. In fact, if you know your transfer date, don't be recording anything (if you can) between say 2am-5am on the transfer day. The transfer usually happens around that time and I heard takes about 45 minutes to an hour.

Understand that these tips are in no way guarantees. It's just little things that you can do that might make your box behave a little better during the download/change-over process.

Jack

...There is one interesting observation from Navigator supporters who may be in the minority, but they raise a great point: If Navigator is as bad as it is believed to be by so many people, why aren't TWC's call centers over-flowing with complaints? Or, are people complaining and we just aren't hearing about it?

Jack
I think that they are complaining but only a small percentage of people end up out here complaining. I believe most people think of their cable box kind of like the water meter on the side of their house. If they're not getting any water they'll call the water dept. but they're not going to examine the meter, write down the model number and get out on Google and start searching for technical forums about it.

I *have* heard various comments, both from the phone techs and the ones who come to the house, reflecting unusually high call volumes about the HDC box, software, etc.

I'll give you another angle on it as well. Look how hard it is just to get the basic functionality we're paying for (like being able to watch TV and maybe record something with your DVR). Given that, am I really going to waste my time to call in and report that I don't like the way a certain feature works? If they can't even get the basic functionality to work reliably, I'm not wasting my time & effort to report usability issues, as in "polishing brass on the Titanic".

-Marty

Dayton OH is scheduled to get the big "upgrade" this Tuesday, March 11th. I have an 8300HD from april '05, one of the first in dayton. I'm very curious to see how this goes. I've seen a lot of the hdc's and the problem isn't just the lack of features, but rather the slow, clunky, general unpredictability about the box. The local TWC call center has an opening prompt telling you how to reboot your HD DVR. They know this box has issues, they get a lot of calls everyday about it. The TWC store where you can pick up new boxes calls them the Ocrap.

After basically any button I hit on the remote, there is a delay. It sits there for like a second or two while I'm wondering if it recognized the command or not. Sometimes I hit the button again, negating the effect of the first command. For example, I press Info. While I wait for the info window to appear, I think I missed it and press Info again. Finally the Info window appears and then disappears immediately because it really saw both Info presses, it just took a while to process the first one.

Using the down arrow to scroll through the channel guide one channel at a time, each channel is highlighted and the corresponding short description is displayed. Sometimes, however, the cursor will move (highlighting the next channel) but the descriptive test will take 2 - 3 seconds to change, such that for channel 4 I am still seeing the description of what is on channel 3.My system does not delay as you describe. It responds to all buttons almost instantaneously. When scrolling through the channel guide, the description delay is less than a second. The only time I see a response delay is when I press a button after its gone into sleep mode. But once it wakes up, it's back to its usual responsive self.

Also, if I press and hold any direction button in the channel guide, it does indeed zoom in the respective direction.

I've just been playing with it for the last couple of minutes. As hard as I try, I just can't get it to do "slow or clunky". It even changes channels faster than my TV can. Wait a second ... found one: it takes about 3 seconds to open my PIP window.

Since you don't show your release level, I can't tell if that might be the cause of our differences.

My system does not delay as you describe. It responds to all buttons almost instantaneously. When scrolling through the channel guide, the description delay is less than a second. The only time I see a response delay is when I press a button after its gone into sleep mode. But once it wakes up, it's back to its usual responsive self.

Also, if I press and hold any direction button in the channel guide, it does indeed zoom in the respective direction.

I've just been playing with it for the last couple of minutes. As hard as I try, I just can't get it to do "slow or clunky". It even changes channels faster than my TV can. Wait a second ... found one: it takes about 3 seconds to open my PIP window.

Since you don't show your release level, I can't tell if that might be the cause of our differences.
Sorry, I should have been more specific.

My complaint about the delay after "any button" and the description delay in the channel guide does not happen all the time. Normally this delay is under a second, as you describe. Perhaps not instantaneous response, but not slow enough for me to wonder if the command was received. I have a theory: perhaps when I experience longer delays the input signal is bad and the CPU is unusually busy doing error correction.

Regarding the speed of scrolling through the channel guide, this feature is consistently "slow and clunky" by my definition. Starting at channel 1, I held Page Down and timed 26 seconds to come back around to channel 1. Unfortunately I have no easy way to give you a count of the channels, but here (http://www.twclineup.com/lineups/NEO-6097WarrenLU%20102307.pdf) is our lineup.

My software version is 2.4.8.2 with bootstrapper 2.4.6.1. Like a dummy, I couldn't remember which keys to hit to get the diagnostic utility and by the time I figured it out by trial & error, I had my video settings all messed up. :o

Do you suppose that the intermittent slowness could be due to excessive CPU being consumed on error control? Next time I get the slowdown I'll try to remember to check the screen that shows the error count.

How about other "internal" functions that could eat CPU cycles, perhaps reorganizing space, indices, maintaining the DVR schedule, etc, something like that? I'm just speculating.

-Marty

p.s. Anybody know what a Pod error is? I am getting a pod error count 1 and it shows up in red.

Got the letter from TW yesterday that we are getting Navigator here in Desert Cities TW (Palm Desert, CA) on March 18.

Wish me luck.

I will report back once I get the update.

Anybody know what a Pod error is? I am getting a pod error count 1 and it shows up in red.I don't know what the error means, but I was getting them on my previous box before it was replaced. I don't know if it's related but when my first box was replaced, the tech replaced a short coax from a splitter to the box because it wasn't a TW coax. After the 2nd box had a rash of problems and finally wouldn't even boot, I recieved a 3rd box. It seemed to work OK except that two of my local HD channels broke up badly (unwatchable). I eventually found that the new coax was bad and put my original back in. All problems went away. I now wonder if my many problems with the second box (POD errors included) were really caused by the bad coax.

According to an article in the Columbus Dispatch, navigator will be rolled out in the Columbus area starting Monday March 10. Hope it's not a rough ride.

My software version is 2.4.8.2 with bootstrapper 2.4.6.1. Like a dummy, I couldn't remember which keys to hit to get the diagnostic utility and by the time I figured it out by trial & error, I had my video settings all messed up.

Are they ok now?

Jack

Has anyone heard if or when sara ares will be navigated.Since 65-70% TWC customers are on sara they better have it right.Any fiasco there could make the passport areas look like a small battle before the main battle of the Alamo.Imagine the size of the sara army compared to the passport army aganist navigator.THEY BETTER HAVE IT RIGHT. Sara 1.89.17.1

Are they ok now?

Jack
Yep. I got 'em put back the right way. I run 1080i @ 16:9 with Stretch. Whatever key sequence I hit on the remote reset them to 480i, 4:3 and Normal.

Thanks for asking.

-Marty

That being said, I don't write GUI apps in Java, I do it in C# :)

I do write GUI apps in Java (have for roughly 10 years now - so virtually since the beginning) and have also implemented Java GUI class libs (JSRs for J2ME).

Java can perform more than adequately enough when used properly. Heck, I've dealt with the Java can't perform type myths even before Java (Smalltalk anyone?). What it generally boils down to is bad programming. Java can make it very easy to write slow inefficient code. There might seem to be a nice simple one line API that does the job, but if you examine what it does, you can discover that because of how you're using it, it's horribly inefficient and writing 3-5 "less elegant" looking lines of code would outperform it significantly. The collection classes are notorious for this.

I had one extreme case once with an outer and inner loop where switching between which was the outer and which was the inner made a difference in the code running in seconds vs. hours. Literally.

.Since 65-70% TWC customers are on sara they better have it right.Where'd you get that number? There are over 4 million TWC customers (around 30%) on Moto networks (I read that in a recent report on their deal with OpenTV to port Navigator to Moto boxes falling apart). Since none of the Moto boxes can run SARA, that'd make the percentage of their subs running Passport 5% or less. I don't buy it.

Yesterday, I posted that we were getting random channel changes, menus, guides and other displays from our SA8300HDC.

The many helpful posts from this board sent me in the right direction. I’m embarrassed to post what I found out, but I said I would do it for the record.

We have a Powermid X10 Transmitter and a Receiver in the apartment. During dinner, the remote gets pointed at the transmitter in the dining area. The transmitter converts the IR signal to radio and sends it to the receiver, about 20 feet away. The receiver, in turn, converts the radio signal back to IR and beams it to the cable box tucked under the TV and not visible from the dining area. Therefore, we can swivel the TV set toward the dining area and still send what becomes a line of sight IR signal to the cable box.

About an hour ago, the cable box went crazy. Nothing was being sent by the transmitter (a red light flashes) but the receiver was definitely sending a signal to the cable box (the receiver was flashing and the IR signal could be block by hand).

Now, the thing is, the radio signal is designed to go through walls so that the transmitter and receiver can even be in separate rooms.

So, somewhere in this apartment building, someone or something is sending out a radio signal that is activating the Powermid receiver and changing our cable box! I suspect that, based on the random activity of the cable box, the signal may not even come from a Powermid unit. That signal is probably also responsible for occasionally shutting down the Bose system.

If anyone has any thoughts about what kind of device would emit these radio signals, please post. But in any event, by covering the receiver's IR output except when needed, we have solved this problem.

Again, thank you.

Where'd you get that number? There are over 4 million TWC customers (around 30%) on Moto networks (I read that in a recent report on their deal with OpenTV to port Navigator to Moto boxes falling apart). Since none of the Moto boxes can run SARA, that'd make the percentage of their subs running Passport 5% or less. I don't buy it.

Time Warner has officially scrapped porting Navigator to legacy Motorola boxes. I posted about it a few pages back with the article link.

Yesterday, I posted that we were getting random channel changes, menus, guides and other displays from our SA8300HDC.

The many helpful posts from this board sent me in the right direction. I’m embarrassed to post what I found out, but I said I would do it for the record.
Oh COME ON! You're telling us you had a known IR source in the room whose function is to send IR signals to your STB, and it wasn't the first thing you thought of with the symptoms you had! You should be embarrassed.:eek:

Glad you solved your problem.:)

Time Warner has officially scrapped porting Navigator to legacy Motorola boxes. I posted about it a few pages back with the article link.Interesting. That leaves 30% of their systems nationally running on other networks or it will cost them probably 100s of millions to convert those systems to S-A networks. Strange decision, given that OCAP Navigator is intended to be able to run on any arbitrary <tru2way> device. You'd certainly think that a Moto STB could be made to comply with the <tru2way> standard.

Looking over your list of recent posts, I don't see the one that you're talking about in the past week--could you post that link again?

Interesting. That leaves 30% of their systems nationally running on other networks or it will cost them probably 100s of millions to convert those systems to S-A networks. Strange decision, given that OCAP Navigator is intended to be able to run on any arbitrary <tru2way> device. You'd certainly think that a Moto STB could be made to comply with the <tru2way> standard.

Looking over your list of recent posts, I don't see the one that you're talking about in the past week--could you post that link again?It was a couple of weeks ago.

It was a couple of weeks ago.I saw that they gave up on the OpenTV deal, but I didn't read any announcement that they'd abandoned porting Navigator to the Moto boxes altogether. Where was that announced?

ok - maybe theres more help out there...

ive had the 8300hdc (dig cable) ~6 months. a short while ago, i wasnt dealing well with the need to keep rebooting it, but when i was told my only option was to trade it in, which meant losing all recorded material, i decided id try to clear it first. its actually been better, weeks even since it went out last.

ive gotten about halfway through, and weve had some weather this week, so wed when i got home late and found it in need of rebooting, i thought maybe that was it. but for the first time, the box flashed OCAP for a microsecond but then looked something like: A it (without the dot over the i)
ive never seen that before. then, once powered on, it just said "searching for signal. this service should be available momentarily" ---- for like 10 minutes or more! :eek:

i called twc, noted they were working on outages in the area, though my area wasnt mentioned. the 20+ min wait for a rep wasnt worth it, so i just let it go. eventually, the mystro screen did come on and counted down, albeit much slower than usual. when done, the Box also counted down from L 9 (i think) to 1 (never seen that before either) before the time, and then finally the channels came in. i checked the guide and a couple channels and ended up watching one recorded show and went to bed. (of note, as a general rule, i turn the tv off, but have been in the habit of leaving the box on. now i know, i should probably turn it off too...)

anyway, next night - got home to no cable. rebooted. ever since, screen have never gotten past "searching for signal" and box always flashes ocap then stays on 'A it' once powered. not only am i missing all recordings since wed (when its out i know i miss stuff), i cant watch whats in it so i can take it back! called twc yesterday and they 'sent it signals' for some other sort of reboot for a while, and we turned it off and unplugged it and still it looks the same. left it off overnight, but same thing today. unplugged it for a while too, but probly no more than 8 hrs.

theres a lot of Great info in these forums, and ive learned a lot in the last few hours. (thanx!) the hard reboot did nothing - if that mark next to the 't' is the lower 'dot' - it comes up very quickly, and the ocap screen comes on, but only one of the 6 little squares is ever orange instead of gray (i thought i remembered them lighting in sequence before it blacked out...?)

now ive got it off with everything (plug+cables) disconnected. been a couple hours now; figured maybe ill try again in a few hrs or very early in the morning (will it matter?). if the total reset doesnt work, am i totally screwed regarding the content i dont want to lose? twc is supposed to come between 8-11am tomorrow, but im worried the tech will be at worst clueless or at best unhelpful. if i can get it back, ill watch what i care about as fast as i can as long as it lasts, but i have a couple questions. :confused:

is there *any* way for me to get this content fairly easily to some other medium? obviously the usb port on the front is not for data. are any of the others in back good for anything? as i understand it, transferring to vhs would require playing it all thru. if it does come back on, im gonna watch anyway; id just rather have it all preserved for when it dies again. if it doesnt....well, next question.

if i have to trade it, is there really *no* way to access the content for transfer (to a new box or anything else)? its data on a hard drive, for cryin out loud - there has to be Some way.... ? unless its the drive itself thats dead, though it still seems to be trying to work..

and if i Do end up with a new box, should i ask for an hd only? from everything ive read, it seems it might be much more reliable. though i dont know if they can even do that anymore, nor what the difference (if any) would be in memory or other functioning..

i know this is long. THANK YOU for reading, and THANK YOU MORE if you can offer any helpful suggestions, insights or wisecracks....... i mean tips! ;)

gratefully,
i-knew-i-shoulda-stuck-to-videotaping-off-broadcast-then-id-only-have-myself-to-blame-i-watched-too-much-tv-when-i-only-used-two-and-a-half-channels :o

The only help you need is to take a typing class.

well, excuse me, thombil!
i type 70+ wpm just fine, and my grammar is excellent.
i choose not to use capitals and apostrophes when i dont have to.
thats a *style* issue, not a typing one.

and i thought this forum was for technical issues, not personal jibes.
if you cant help, dont waste your precious time posting insults.
im sure your typing skills are better used elsewhere.

anyone else with on-topic ideas? is my issue better off in a different thread?

tx, nofool

tx, nofool

Unfortunately you are out of luck as far as getting anything off the box if you can't get it to boot. Have you tried connecting it without any splitters or anything? If you have a neighbor with TWC, you might try plugging it in at their place to figure out if it is a signal or box problem.

xnappo

P.S. I'm glad I don't have to worry about you incorrectly capitalizing the x in my alias

does it display the correct time? Generally when the blue dots don't increase, the cable signal has been lost. Try plugging it into another cable jack somewhere else in your house (or neighbors).

Unfortunately you are out of luck as far as getting anything off the box if you can't get it to boot. Have you tried connecting it without any splitters or anything? If you have a neighbor with TWC, you might try plugging it in at their place to figure out if it is a signal or box problem.

xnappo

P.S. I'm glad I don't have to worry about you incorrectly capitalizing the x in my alias

:) thanx, xnappo -

unfortunately, theres nothing to split. its just the cable from the wall and the cable to the set, and the plug. im just beginning to catch up to middle-tech.
hadnt thought of trying it somewhere else, but i suppose that would effectively require what im doing now with the reset - disconnecting everything and waiting a bit to try again, as recommended in the tips/tricks. seeing as how were buried in a foot of snow at the moment, ill see how this works first...

if i Can get it to boot, does that mean theres hope for dumping it somewhere safe other than watching it all straight through?

nofool

ps: dont worry, i only use em incorrectly for emphasis. obviously, i dont use one either. :rolleyes:

does it display the correct time? Generally when the blue dots don't increase, the cable signal has been lost. Try plugging it into another cable jack somewhere else in your house (or neighbors).

it showed the time wed night after it finally came back, but hasnt done so since. only the A it

i suspected it wasnt getting any signal. it was kind enough to tell me it was searching, but i guess thats why nothing the twc lady was sending to it was doing anything either. good thought on another cable - the tv in my room gets the cable signal just fine. since the digital is only from that living room cable, would it be better to try a new coax, or will the box do anything if i try it in here? i think ill do that in the am when i try it again if it doesnt work. im hesitant to risk restoring the power till its had a chance to drain as much as possible.

thanx ryan2112! :D

will keep an eye on here and update as i can..

Does any body know when navigator will roll out in nyc

it showed the time wed night after it finally came back, but hasnt done so since. only the A it

Haven't I read here or elsewhere that the box can eventually be booted even if not connected? I thought someone just powered up the box while not connected via coax and eventually got to a point where they could at least watch the shows stored on the box. Worth a try.

Haven't I read here or elsewhere that the box can eventually be booted even if not connected? I thought someone just powered up the box while not connected via coax and eventually got to a point where they could at least watch the shows stored on the box. Worth a try.

*thunk!*
(i coulda hadda v8300!)

of course! that would just make too much sense.. in all the things ive read today, it never occurred to me not to worry about reestablishing the cable input, though i didnt actually see it suggested. does it need the cable coax input to boot? every time i turn on the power, that funny code shows up. its been completely unconnected most of the day. think ill try plugging it in and see what happens..

does anyone know for sure if, indeed, i only reconnect the cable from box to tv, it will boot ok and let me watch my shows? can anyone tell me specifically how to make this work? ill try the power cord alone first, no cables to anything. if i can get it to show the time, ill see what happens with the tv cable alone, unless someone clues me in otherwise. i wouldnt be able to record, but maybe i could live with that for a week if i can get done and swap out.

thanx robotron!! if it works, youve got my deepest gratitude, most sheepish smile and a friend in cincinnati! :D :rolleyes:

if it doesnt, ill see what the tech can do. if it does, can i hook up the coax for the cable at some point and not have to reboot again? i dont know if id want to risk it, unless the tech figures out why i have no signal..

hopeful nofool

Dayton OH is scheduled to get the big "upgrade" this Tuesday, March 11th. I have an 8300HD from april '05, one of the first in dayton. I'm very curious to see how this goes. I've seen a lot of the hdc's and the problem isn't just the lack of features, but rather the slow, clunky, general unpredictability about the box. The local TWC call center has an opening prompt telling you how to reboot your HD DVR. They know this box has issues, they get a lot of calls everyday about it. The TWC store where you can pick up new boxes calls them the Ocrap.

Customer service for Columbus told me the same thing. The rep said they would be downloading Nav to all the Passport boxes at the same time - which sounded ridiculous, but I wouldn't be surprised). Since we're snowed in, I've been watching everything I possibly can off the DVR, but will still have at least 80 hrs of programs (non-hd) unwatched. I'm gonna be super ticked off if the box loses everything during the transition.

does it need the cable coax input to boot? every time i turn on the power, that funny code shows up. its been completely unconnected most of the day. think ill try plugging it in and see what happens..

well... its been a couple hours. i plugged it in and it said boot - then within a minute or two, the same code ive been seeing for days [ A it ] (no dot over i). its making noise, so i presume receiving something, but ive got a bad feeling about this....... :confused:

ill wait to connect any cables or turn it on.

nofool
no box

ug.
still A it
comes up after " boot " with ONLY the power cord attached. ???
with just the tv connection, as well as with the cable connected, its
still searching for signal.

well, i dont think im much better off than i was, but i have been able to access the diagnostics... however, the only method that works on my box is the VOL+/- (on the STB) then CH+. for some reason, not one of the other methods ive found on here will make the mail icon flash. indeed, i have no signal (data lock lost). alas, i dont have a way to capture screens right now, but i understand a lot of what i see, thanx to the forums!

i do have OCAP OS 01.01.10P6

the CableCARD appears authorized but not working without a signal

there is a reference to CVT Version 13, Last CVT Time 1/17/08 under Firmware

the list on pg 16 and the drivers that show after i connected the cable seem to indicate

OS 6.20.40.2 from 12/5/07 (not sure what the P/D distinction is, but it's P)

S/W Version PowerKEY LIB PKey_3.9.7.22

Axiom OCAP 1.2.142.1

F/W (firmware) Version 0X30343666 but the date code is 0's

I think the Firewire is enabled - theres a MAC addresss for 1394 and i remember seeing that is was active or something..

i do see a handful of denied diagnostic requests, not sure if thats significant.

anyway, tech will be here any minute. will see what more we can figure out. if the info above gives anyone further clues, id love to hear it!

thanx again!
:) nofool

ug.
still A it
comes up after " boot " with ONLY the power cord attached. Quit worrying about the Ait. That is the normal part of the boot sequence. It will display for 2 or 3 minutes then you'll get the Mystro screen and the count down with the L- codes. The progress bar on this screen generally doesn't move until very near the end of the boot sequence (if at all). Once you see the time displayed, it has completed booting and you can turn it on. Total time can be as long as 10 minutes.

Because this all seems foreign to you, I'm assuming you've just received the latest release of Navigator (2.4.8_2). Actually, it almost sounds like you didn't even have Navigator before because the boot sequence didn't really change except for the Ait display. In that case, you may have lost your recordings. There's been some speculation that the transition may not retain them, especially if your disk was almost full.

Also, if you are using an external drive, you'll want to disconnect it as it does not play well with 2.4.8_2.

Quit worrying about the Ait. That is the normal part of the boot sequence. It will display for 2 or 3 minutes then you'll get the Mystro screen and the count down with the L- codes. The progress bar on this screen generally doesn't move until very near the end of the boot sequence (if at all). Once you see the time displayed, it has completed booting and you can turn it on. Total time can be as long as 10 minutes.

Because this all seems foreign to you, I'm assuming you've just received the latest release of Navigator (2.4.8_2). Actually, it almost sounds like you didn't even have Navigator before because the boot sequence didn't really change except for the Ait display. In that case, you may have lost your recordings. There's been some speculation that the transition may not retain them, especially if your disk was almost full.

Also, if you are using an external drive, you'll want to disconnect it as it does not play well with 2.4.8_2.

Many people that have Navigator are saying that the external drives are doing far more harm than good. It's probably just best to outright not use them with Navigator. Why add the possibility of more problems on a system that is already buggy with an added external hard drive? At least, the general populations should probably not do this. I know that Navigator was designed to accept external storage, but if you have a faulty foundation to begin with, you just create more problems by adding to its structure. Navigator has enough problems without having to worry about if an external hard drive is adding to them. Look at the issues with the integrated cable cards as evidence.

And you know damn well that TWC will just blame the external drive because there is no way that their "wonderful revolutionary program guide" could be causing problems! LFMAO! They will even lie further and say something like, "Oh, you shouldn't be connecting external drives to these new boxes." Well, it's not because TWC says the boxes don't support them. The problem is that Navigator barely functions on its own as an IPG.

Unless you are really geeky as a user and are prepared the problems of adding an external drive to the box, I would just disconnect the external drive, than wait for some general consensus from our forums, six months, a year, whatever, before hooking up another external hard drive. Why add to the frustration of Navigator with external devices that just make things worse?

Jack

Many people that have Navigator are saying that the external drives are doing far more harm than good. It's probably just best to outright not use them with Navigator. Why add the possibility of more problems on a system that is already buggy with an added external hard drive? At least, the general populations should probably not do this. I know that Navigator was designed to accept external storage, but if you have a faulty foundation to begin with, you just create more problems by adding to its structure. Navigator has enough problems without having to worry about if an external hard drive is adding to them. Look at the issues with the integrated cable cards as evidence.

And you know damn well that TWC will just blame the external drive because there is no way that their "wonderful revolutionary program guide" could be causing problems! LFMAO! They will even lie further and say something like, "Oh, you shouldn't be connecting external drives to these new boxes." Well, it's not because TWC says the boxes don't support them. The problem is that Navigator barely functions on its own as an IPG.

Unless you are really geeky as a user and are prepared the problems of adding an external drive to the box, I would just disconnect the external drive, than wait for some general consensus from our forums, six months, a year, whatever, before hooking up another external hard drive. Why add to the frustration of Navigator with external devices that just make things worse?

Jack

Mine works just fine with the external drive (I have 2.4.5_4), and extra storage is very useful to me. Connecting the external drive involved just plugging the eSATA cable to both drive and DVR, as well as power to the drive, it was not a big deal at all, so staying away from external drives is a bit of overkill. Of course, if you have 2.4.8_2, you don't want to use extrenal drive, as there are several reports of it not working with external drives, and not a single report of it working (guys, please try it every so often, just in case TWC quietly fixes the issue). If you have 2.4.5_4 and get "upgraded" to 2.4.8_2, from what I heard, you do not lose your shows.

phousley: i gather you didnt see my initial post. ive only had it 6 months, but ive never had a different system. and the boot sequence is far from foreign, as i was originally doing it 3-4 times a week, sometimes more than once a night. i dont recall the Ait specifically, but my posts were prompted by seeing it for 3 days no matter what i did. if its normally only on briefly, im glad, since after the first couple times, i frankly had stopped paying attention to the box and screen after rebooting except to notice the black screen to turn the box on and make sure mystro came up. i was usually busy with other things until i could hear it was back. which it is, now. shows intact. i do appreciate your reassurance about the Ait - id been convinced it was an error code.

thank you so much to those who offered comments - i know ill learn a lot more on here..

i am shocked, appalled, and apparently a bit obtuse, not to mention a bit more embarrassed, though incredibly relieved.

i thought the box had no satellite signal.

it had no *Cable* signal.

because the 3rd floor tenant replaced the coax going to that particular set with his own on my splitter down in the basement!

:eek: !!

yeah, it was really that simple. yeah, i feel stupid. never even thought of trying to trace the line down there. never even considered either of my upstairs neighbors would do such a thing! :mad:
traced it out to see if i could be sure who it was and it goes right up the side of the house and in above the second floor - and on the inside it reconnected to a line that goes separately out to the pole like hes already got service!? its not like i have anything special, other than digital. ive only got basic and value tiers, and showtime for another couple months, but not most of the popular stuff. and my wireless requires a password, though i suppose that would give him a direct connection. is there any way to find out if anyone/who else might have been using it?

i do hope my questions and your answers have helped others who may still have issues with the hdc. if it hiccups before ive cleared it, i may still take it back. now that i know, im worried about getting another that may be worse, since other than this, it really hasnt been that bad lately. never did have audio dropouts, so i guess my issues were minor compared to what ive seen here. im going to try and find out whether i could still get an hd. tech said they were on passport with ocap, but i have to find out what version the os is. if theres anyone in cinci out there who knows...

anyway, thanx again.

laughs are on me,
nofool ;)
(really!)
:rolleyes:

We have a Powermid X10 Transmitter and a Receiver in the apartment. During dinner, the remote gets pointed at the transmitter in the dining area. The transmitter converts the IR signal to radio and sends it to the receiver, about 20 feet away. The receiver, in turn, converts the radio signal back to IR and beams it to the cable box tucked under the TV and not visible from the dining area. Therefore, we can swivel the TV set toward the dining area and still send what becomes a line of sight IR signal to the cable box.

So, somewhere in this apartment building, someone or something is sending out a radio signal that is activating the Powermid receiver and changing our cable box! I suspect that, based on the random activity of the cable box, the signal may not even come from a Powermid unit. That signal is probably also responsible for occasionally shutting down the Bose system.



Ok, where exactly do you live?
I have an X10 setup for my lights and have a few RF emitters :cool:
Sometimes the RF receiver doesn't seem to hear my keychain RF transmission and I have to try a few times. For all I know, I could be toggling someone else's devices.

>Ok, where exactly do you live?<

In a high rise apartment in Manhattan, NYC.

One thought is that an IR signal was coming through a window to the transmitter (there is no window line-of-sight to the cable box) however, as noted, the transmitter flashes when sending ot a radio signal and mine isn't.

I also question whether we are picking up another X10 unit. When the box changes, everthing goes crazy at once ... guide, channels, volume. It is not the "normal" behavior of someone accessing a cable box. It is more like a multi signal burst.

Also, there is a lot of metal in these buildings - reinforced concrete, beams, door jams. Radio headphone signals as well as signals from my wireless router lose substantial strenth going to the adjoining room.

I will check with other people on my floor to see if anyone is using any sort of unusual electronic equipment (medical? remote control toys? cooking?) and will post results, if any.

I also question whether we are picking up another X10 unit. When the box changes, everthing goes crazy at once ... guide, channels, volume. It is not the "normal" behavior of someone accessing a cable box. It is more like a multi signal burst.



Can you switch house codes/unit codes?
I changed mine to just avoid interference from anyone in the area with the default codes.

I'd guess it is more likely you are getting unintended RF vs rogue powerline signals. In my apt, I found that powerline signals don't cross from one half of my apt to the other because of the sectioning in the circuit breaker box and something about the halves being out of phase. I'm also in NYC, but my only X-10 problems are with the transceiver responding to my RF transmissions, and not with extra untriggered responses. Also got one of those serial port transmitters, which seems to work very reliably as it is probably emitting stronger RF than my other remotes.

>Can you switch house codes/unit codes<

I assume you are talking about the house codes on the Bose unit and yes, I did change them from the default but it didn't seem to matter. I'll try changing them again.

There are no "house codes" or any other way to change the Powermid system that I know of.

I'd like to remind you two that this is a Navigator thread. Your dialog might be better taken to PM.

>I'd like to remind you two that this is a Navigator thread. Your dialog might be better taken to PM.<

You are correct...this is no longer a Navigator issue.

What is "PM" and where do I find it?

>I'd like to remind you two that this is a Navigator thread. Your dialog might be better taken to PM.<

You are correct...this is no longer a Navigator issue.

What is "PM" and where do I find it?Private message. Click on the user name and select "Send a private message to xxx"

Can this thread get back to Navigator. PLEASE!

On my way out this morning, I noticed the L-1 display on my 8300HDC. I thought it might be a random reboot, but I checked and I now have 2.4.9_3! I didn't have time to explore the changes in this version, but I would assume this is going out to all 8300HDC units in Raleigh.

They pushed the update on my box also last night. Now it won't work. Picture comes on for a half second at 1080i, then goes away and box changes to 480i. I haven't ever seen 480i on the box in the 6 months I've had it. It seems not to support my hdmi connection now. On the phone with TWC right now. Rebooted now twice, no luck. I guess she's checking with someone who has a clue. CSR is very nice though.:confused:

They don't know what is wrong. Told me to use component cables till they come out tomorrow. Damn, now I've got to go dig around for some cables.:mad:

On my way out this morning, I noticed the L-1 display on my 8300HDC. I thought it might be a random reboot, but I checked and I now have 2.4.9_3! I didn't have time to explore the changes in this version, but I would assume this is going out to all 8300HDC units in Raleigh.

Do you have an external drive you can test with?

xnappo

They pushed the update on my box also last night. Now it won't work. Picture comes on for a half second at 1080i, then goes away and box changes to 480i. I haven't ever seen 480i on the box in the 6 months I've had it. It seems not to support my hdmi connection now. On the phone with TWC right now. Rebooted now twice, no luck. I guess she's checking with someone who has a clue. CSR is very nice though.:confused:


Same problem here with an 8300HDC. I can toggle back and forth, back and forth, back and forth between 2 HD channels and finally get it to work. But, if I have the output resolutions set to 1080i only all I can get is the little picture box in the right hand corner until I go back into output resolutions settings and change it. Would be interested in knowing what the TWC repairman says.

Do you have an external drive you can test with?

xnappo

Sadly, no... I decided to hold off on getting an external drive until things stabilize a bit, but I sure do want one.

I think a couple of AVS forum members here in the Raleigh area had an external drive on the HDC w/ 2.4.5_4. I imagine we'll hear more soon regarding their experiences with the new version.

Same problem here with an 8300HDC. I can toggle back and forth, back and forth, back and forth between 2 HD channels and finally get it to work. But, if I have the output resolutions set to 1080i only all I can get is the little picture box in the right hand corner until I go back into output resolutions settings and change it. Would be interested in knowing what the TWC repairman says.

And in my situation, I have been using component cables to avoid the resolution switching issues reported with 2.4.5_4. I've been watching mine for about an hour this evening with no problems over component. Dang, I had hoped they would fix the HDMI issues with this version...

Well, I decided try the hdmi cables again. Disconnected the component cables, reconnected hdmi, rebooted and it worked. One change I noticed so far. In the settings for output resolution, which before this version, said you cannot change resolution. This one, the options are there plus a new one called "Auto Select." So far, don't see any other changes.:)

Well, I decided try the hdmi cables again. Disconnected the component cables, reconnected hdmi, rebooted and it worked. One change I noticed so far. In the settings for output resolution, which before this version, said you cannot change resolution. This one, the options are there plus a new one called "Auto Select." So far, don't see any other changes.:)

Now, cut the TV off and wait a few minutes. See what happens when you cut the TV back on. Does it revert back to 480i? Edited to also add: see how it does in switching between a 480i channel and a HD channel.

Did that already. Everything seems normal. I'm leaving the auto select like it is. Most channels are 1080i upconverts. It switched to 720p like it is supposed when I went to ESPN.

Did that already. Everything seems normal. I'm leaving the auto select like it is. Most channels are 1080i upconverts. It switched to 720p like it is supposed when I went to ESPN.

Congrats! You're one of the lucky ones!

Received Navigator on my Non DVR Pioneer 3510HD last night. So far seems to work well. Speed of boot up of box is less than desirable (approx 5 mins) but Passport on this box took 2.5 minutes to start up. Once it's running it runs very smoothly. Switches Output Formats between 1080i, 720P, and 480I very smoothly. The keyboard search even works on it, which is light years over the Passport version we had running on our Non DVR boxes here. You could only choose a single letter that the program name began with. The access menu works, even the Enhanced TV features (we have direct links now to On-demand from the channels (EG HBO & Showtime)).

Have only had about 30-45 minutes to play around with it since we got over night. But so far I seem to like it. Will wait to pass judgment until I get it on my SA8300HD which should be this week according to Customer Service (Believe it or not they actually know the deployment schedule!).

For Reference the version on my box that I can find is:
1.37 MDN 2.5 Jan 28, 2008

Location Delaware, Ohio (should be in my profile, just making sure I note it)

Hopefully someone will have some advice on this. I have a MonsterPower HTS 1000 MKII and Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC. Is it better to run the coax from the wall directly to the box or will the two protected coax connections on the HTS 1000 improve picture at all.

I've got this new Navigator and every night it locks up and I have to pull the plug - I assume there's a problem with the box, anybody have this problem?

On my way out this morning, I noticed the L-1 display on my 8300HDC. I thought it might be a random reboot, but I checked and I now have 2.4.9_3! I didn't have time to explore the changes in this version, but I would assume this is going out to all 8300HDC units in Raleigh.

I got the upgrade overnight as well. Everything is working fine, using an HDMI cable, and I didn't lose any recorded shows or series settings. I haven't noticed anything different at all except that it feels like the jumpback when fast-forwarding is working better. This was actually something that had frustrated me since switching from the SA8300 (non-HD) running Passport so I noticed right off that it seemed better.

I got the upgrade overnight as well. Everything is working fine, using an HDMI cable, and I didn't lose any recorded shows or series settings. I haven't noticed anything different at all except that it feels like the jumpback when fast-forwarding is working better. This was actually something that had frustrated me since switching from the SA8300 (non-HD) running Passport so I noticed right off that it seemed better.

Can you check if you can force it to always output 1080i through HDMI?

Thanks,
xnappo

Can you check if you can force it to always output 1080i through HDMI?

Thanks,
xnappo


IIRC you have a Philips 42" LCD, correct? I do too, and I wonder if there is some incompatibility issues with the Navigator HDMI and the Philips HDMI. When it (HDMI) works the pic looks great. Just very frustrating to have to "play with it" to get it to work.

IIRC you have a Philips 42" LCD, correct? I do too, and I wonder if there is some incompatibility issues with the Navigator HDMI and the Philips HDMI. When it (HDMI) works the pic looks great. Just very frustrating to have to "play with it" to get it to work.

I don't have Navigator yet, I have SARA - but I have SARA fixed to 1080i because of how long the Philips takes to sync. Appreciate y'alls effort on the front line :) I haven't had any problems with HDMI - did you have those problems on Passport too? I assume you have the latest Philips firmware?

xnappo

Yes...great question above. I have to use component because I can't force 1080i on HDMI...has this been fixed?

Can you check if you can force it to always output 1080i through HDMI?

Thanks,
xnappo

Yes, apparently I can. By default, it has everything selected (480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i) except Auto select. Though playing with it, I managed to get ESPNHD and ESPN2HD stuck showing only in the upper right corner after exiting the guide. Switching to an SD channel and back corrected it.

And BTW, I have a 42" Philips LCD (same as xnappo as I recall).

So not having done this before, while the box can now output just 1080i over HDMI, and the channel switching on the Philips is quick, SD channels still have the black bars (and then get stretched by the TV). I guess that's expected? And what about 720p channels? Will they look as good if the box upconverts to 1080i?

So not having done this before, while the box can now output just 1080i over HDMI, and the channel switching on the Philips is quick, SD channels still have the black bars (and then get stretched by the TV). I guess that's expected? And what about 720p channels? Will they look as good if the box upconverts to 1080i?

So actually I lied. I leave mine set up to allow 720p and 1080i only. That way it is fast when switching through SD channels, but still lets the TV upconvert 720p to 1080p. That was the best quality vs. speed compromise I could come up with. I usually leave the TV set to 'widescreen' which, confusingly in this mode, will show SD in 4:3(this is because the cable box is sending a 16:9 image - 4:3 with black bars). You can then zoom using the '#' key on the remote. With SARA, the first zoom will give you stetch-o-vision(useless IMO) and the second with zoom in the center which is useful for SD 16:9 broadcasts (that would have black on all sides with no zoom).

xnappo

Hopefully someone will have some advice on this. I have a MonsterPower HTS 1000 MKII and Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC. Is it better to run the coax from the wall directly to the box or will the two protected coax connections on the HTS 1000 improve picture at all.The connections on the HTS 1000 will do nothing to improve the picture. At best, it will only protect the TV, at worst, it could decrease the signal strength.

Sadly, no... I decided to hold off on getting an external drive until things stabilize a bit, but I sure do want one.

I think a couple of AVS forum members here in the Raleigh area had an external drive on the HDC w/ 2.4.5_4. I imagine we'll hear more soon regarding their experiences with the new version.

I'm one of those. Was solid until this morning, when I got "upgraded" to 2.4.9_3 like the other people in Ralegh area. Well, I did not lose my recordings. That's the end of good news. This morning, the box would output only blank screen; I did the soft reboot thing and when I saw "Ait" I knew I was in trouble. The boot hung for a long while (did not even get to countdown), so I hit the soft reboot sequence again, and then it booted within normal time and everything appeared OK. Playing a bit with it, the only improvement I saw was that the gas gauge is now more accurate (which is not difficult, it used to be waaaaay off, I totally ignored it and just counted the movies I have recorded). On the down side, looking through scheduled recordings, the "will pick up only New episodes and only one instance of each episode" thing that used to be rock solid in 2.4.5_4 (and my favorite Navigator feature) is now hit or miss - sometimes it adds episodes unnecessarily. I left for work. When I came back, it needed another reboot. This one hung at 9, with "E9" displayed, so I interrupted the boot again, and this time it did get to the end. It appeared to work again. I decided to set something to record at all times, as it worked for other people. There was no show like that I could find, so I did the closest thing to it, set up several different news shows on channel 14. (Any good ideas for such thing in our area? Please share) While I was doing that, the picture got stuck at 1/4 screen and 480i. Switching channels did not help; eventually I went to output resolution thing and turned off 480i and thing went back to normal. I turned it back to on using the new unintuitive Auto Select, which appears to be an option but when you select it iot does not show a dot next to it, it just selects every other option. I am connected through hdmi; this never happened with 2.4.5_4. Then it worked OK for a while. I'll see tomorrow if al night recording is enough to keep it from rebooting. I really do not want to give up the external drive.

It seem ridiculous for them to do this. I can understand (though not necessarily like) TWC moving to Navigator as a way to gain complete control / cut costs, even if it is a step down in quality, but how is swithing from working to non-working version of the same software beneficial to them is beyond me. I can understand that reboot stuff is related to external drive and they don't care about them, but they also broke the other two things (New episodes and resolution) for everybody, not just people with external drives, and I see no significant improvements (only gas gauge). I specificaly looked for "Lincoln" features, and they are not there.

That's good to know we can again force 1080i with HDMI. Now I can switch back from component, although I'm not sure I'll see any difference.

Anybody with the legacy 8300HD with Navigator (changed from Passport) notice this?

Sometimes, after a few days, the series manager fails to mark episodes for recording. Even as close as one day out.

So far, I've found that doing a cold reboot (unplugging the box, wait 30 seconds, plug in the box, wait for reboot process to complete) seems to solve the problem, at least for a while.

[I] have TWC in NYC, I saw with the hdmi connection now with the 8300hdc there is an auto select feature pertaining to resolution setting. You can now select the various resolutions unlike before. The problem is, everytime I turn on the tv the screen is displayed in normal mode (black bars on the sides wich I dont like) eventhough the cable box is set to stretch mode. If I change to componenet cables the tv turns on fine in stretch mode. Is anyone else having this problem. I want to be able to watch cable via stretch mode so no bars are showing on the sides.

Well, it seems I now have 2.4.9_3 and my SA8300HDC took another step deeper into the "this is a piece of sh*t" pile....

Basically, after I power off the box, if I come back to the box a few hours later and power on the box, nothing happens. Also recordings that should have happened in between are not there. I have to unplug or reset the box to make it start working again.

Note I have an external SATA drive with my system. The drive seems to be working ok when the system is up and running but I'm wondering if the drive and this new update is incompatible. Sigh.....

Well, it seems I now have 2.4.9_3 and my SA8300HDC took another step deeper into the "this is a piece of sh*t" pile....

Basically, after I power off the box, if I come back to the box a few hours later and power on the box, nothing happens. Also recordings that should have happened in between are not there. I have to unplug or reset the box to make it start working again.

Note I have an external SATA drive with my system. The drive seems to be working ok when the system is up and running but I'm wondering if the drive and this new update is incompatible. Sigh.....This is a known problem and has been mentioned several times in the last 2 or 3 weeks. Your external drive causes the system to quit working after Navigator enter sleep mode (3 hours after last remote command).

This is a known problem and has been mentioned several times in the last 2 or 3 weeks. Your external drive causes the system to quit working after Navigator enter sleep mode (3 hours after last remote command).

Thanks for the info phousley. This is so frustrating. Once an option arises that I can get rid to TWC, I will. Right now I can't get Sat because of trees and I'm holding off on a Tivo solution until SDV is solved.

I got the upgrade overnight as well. Everything is working fine, using an HDMI cable, and I didn't lose any recorded shows or series settings. I haven't noticed anything different at all except that it feels like the jumpback when fast-forwarding is working better. This was actually something that had frustrated me since switching from the SA8300 (non-HD) running Passport so I noticed right off that it seemed better.

Ditto on the jumpback improvement when pressing Play after FF--it is more generous now relative to 2.4.5_4, and more like Passport used to be IIRC.

Thanks for the info phousley. This is so frustrating. Once an option arises that I can get rid to TWC, I will. Right now I can't get Sat because of trees and I'm holding off on a Tivo solution until SDV is solved.

If you have an external drive, you are probably best off ditching it, until (if ever) they fix the issue. If you are like me, and really don't want to give it up, there is a workaround, posted here by nmspace (thanks!). For the box not to crash when it goes into the sleep mode, have it continuously recording (or, at least, without breaks longer than an hour or so, unless you are actually watching stuff at the time and sending remote signals). This morning I verified that it works for me. Of course, then you have to watch for conflicts and manually resolve them. I use series recordings set up for a few news shows that repeat several times in a row on channel 14. If you have a better channel/show combination that would keep the box busy at night and when at work, please share.

I decided to set something to record at all times, as it worked for other people. There was no show like that I could find, so I did the closest thing to it, set up several different news shows on channel 14. (Any good ideas for such thing in our area? Please share)
As for continuous recording, the only idea I had was to possibly try recording one of the VOD preview channels in the 500-range whose program time is listed as "All Day" by selecting it for recording directly from the guide. However, as I perused some of the VOD channels to pick one while already recording a program on another "regular" HD channel, I apparently caused a reboot! So, I can't recommend that :(
I really do not want to give up the external drive.
It is a shame that the external drive stability seems to be headed in the wrong direction with the last few releases. I want to add one myself, but am discouraged from rushing out to buy a drive at this point.

I specificaly looked for "Lincoln" features, and they are not there.

I also briefly checked for new features I had anticipated, but did not see any of interest to me (e.g., no TimeSlot recording).

Maybe it just a coincidence; I'll let you judge. This week the Columbus area started getting upgrades pushed to legacy boxes. After working solidly for a month, my box spontaneously rebooted 2 days ago while watching a show. I checked the diagnostics, suspecting maybe I had gotten a new release of Navigator. The release had not changed, but I did notice that SDV Authorization had been set to True. It had always been False in the past. It also showed (in red):
SDV Carousel Load Failures: 1
SDV Last Load Error: Tuning Failed

Today, it rebooted again. It happened within a few minutes of the time it had rebooted two days ago. The diagnostic pages show the same status. When I tried to go back to the channel I had been watching, it rebooted a second time. (Thank God I was just watching a news channel. If it had been a movie, I would have been pissed.)

One last tidbit that just occurred to me. When it rebooted it may have been time for it to go into sleep mode as it had been on for close to 3 hours. However, I've had it go into sleep mode several times in the last 2 days without incident.

I have found that a quicker way (maybe) to fix the 1/4 screen issue than changing the channel and back again is to turn PIP on and then switch it off.

Anyone know of an inexpensive IR transmitter than can be set up to periodically send an IR signal to the HDC box? I was just thinking that if I left the cable box on, and had some transmitter send the equivalent of the Exit command or something innocuous to normal operation that the box would reset its idle timer and not lock up with external SATA attached.

Anyone know of an inexpensive IR transmitter than can be set up to periodically send an IR signal to the HDC box? I was just thinking that if I left the cable box on, and had some transmitter send the equivalent of the Exit command or something innocuous to normal operation that the box would reset its idle timer and not lock up with external SATA attached.I had the same thought. I like to use the Novii remote control SW on my Palm TX, but is doesn't seem to have a way to set up a timed event like we'd need to accomplish what you're suggesting. Seems like I've seen some advanced remotes that support it, but I don't particularly want to invest much on a somewhat cludgy solution to a hopefully temporary problem.

I had the same thought. I like to use the Novii remote control SW on my Palm TX, but is doesn't seem to have a way to set up a timed event like we'd need to accomplish what you're suggesting. Seems like I've seen some advanced remotes that support it, but I don't particularly want to invest much on a somewhat cludgy solution to a hopefully temporary problem.

Yeah, my PC is located in close proximity to the cable box, so I thought about getting an IR transmitter that I could schedule periodic signals via the PC. The ones that I found that both received and transmitted IR (otherwise I'd have to know the right IR code to just TX) were a bit much money for this sort of hack.

Yeah, my PC is located in close proximity to the cable box, so I thought about getting an IR transmitter that I could schedule periodic signals via the PC. The ones that I found that both received and transmitted IR (otherwise I'd have to know the right IR code to just TX) were a bit much money for this sort of hack.

You guys might ask the guys over at www.hifi-remote.com/forums ...

xnappo

At one time, R-S carried an inexpensive R/C with event timer capability.
Check D-VHS thread for part number....no longer at R/S....maybe eBay?

Sony R/C's (used RM-VL1000 or RM-AV2xxx, RM-AV3xxx series) are only
halfway affordable R/C I've found with event timer.

I use my old, worn out RM-VL1000 for timed D-VHS recordings.
For some inexplicable reason (probably to placate "Hollywood"),
JVC D-VHS timer doesn't work for Firewire input.

Maybe it just a coincidence; I'll let you judge. This week the Columbus area started getting upgrades pushed to legacy boxes. After working solidly for a month, my box spontaneously rebooted 2 days ago while watching a show. I checked the diagnostics, suspecting maybe I had gotten a new release of Navigator. The release had not changed, but I did notice that SDV Authorization had been set to True. It had always been False in the past. It also showed (in red):
SDV Carousel Load Failures: 1
SDV Last Load Error: Tuning Failed

Today, it rebooted again. It happened within a few minutes of the time it had rebooted two days ago. The diagnostic pages show the same status. When I tried to go back to the channel I had been watching, it rebooted a second time. (Thank God I was just watching a news channel. If it had been a movie, I would have been pissed.)

One last tidbit that just occurred to me. When it rebooted it may have been time for it to go into sleep mode as it had been on for close to 3 hours. However, I've had it go into sleep mode several times in the last 2 days without incident.

How is the change-over going in Columbus? I heard they are doing ALL of the legacy boxes at the same time. (Non-C DVR's and Non C regular boxes.) In Milwaukee they are doing the DVR's now. I believe that the HD units are last. We are supposed to get it before the end of the month.

Jack

I don't have Navigator yet, I have SARA - but I have SARA fixed to 1080i because of how long the Philips takes to sync. Appreciate y'alls effort on the front line :) I haven't had any problems with HDMI - did you have those problems on Passport too? I assume you have the latest Philips firmware?

xnappo

Actually, I had DISH until about 2 weeks ago. Had no problems at all with HDMI. I have tried everything I know to do to force 1080i to no avail. Right now I have it set to output 720p and 1080i only. When I first turn the TV on it will default back to 480i (even though it is not selected). I have to play around between 2 HD channels to get it to lock in to the appropriate output; either 720 or 1080. Gosh, this is frustrating!

Actually, I had DISH until about 2 weeks ago. Had no problems at all with HDMI. I have tried everything I know to do to force 1080i to no avail. Right now I have it set to output 720p and 1080i only. When I first turn the TV on it will default back to 480i (even though it is not selected). I have to play around between 2 HD channels to get it to lock in to the appropriate output; either 720 or 1080. Gosh, this is frustrating!

That is annoying. I can only tell you that it is a Navigator issue and not a SA3000HD issue since SARA does not do this. I will say with SARA when you make such a change to the available resolutions you have to reset the box to lock them in. However I doubt that is the issue since with Navigator, you are pretty much ensured to reboot a lot!

Why did you switch from DISH?

xnappo

How is the change-over going in Columbus? I heard they are doing ALL of the legacy boxes at the same time. (Non-C DVR's and Non C regular boxes.) In Milwaukee they are doing the DVR's now. I believe that the HD units are last. We are supposed to get it before the end of the month.

Jack

Change over here seems to be going smoothly. I received it on my Pioneer HD Non DVR box on Tuesday early morning. Talking to friends and co-workers in the area it seems like the non DVRs are getting upgraded now. According to local TWC customer service once they complete the non DVR boxes, they will start on DVR boxes. Have not received it as of this minute on my 8300HD.

After seeing how it works on my non dvr box, I'm optimistic on how it is going to work on the DVR 8300HD. The only complaint I have on the Non DVR version seems to be common, the boot up time is approx 2x what Passport was on the same box (5 mins versus 2.5 mins).

Most of us received calls on Monday letting us know the new guide was being deployed. Today received a mailer letting us know the ways Navigator was different from Passport. In essence it was a "getting to know" Navigator Quick Start Guide.

Where do you check what software version you have?

Apparently my DVR just got an update (I'm in Charlotte) - I had it unplugged for several days because I was going to take it back due to it locking up every night - then I found out this is "expected" behavior with an external drive (lol)

Anyway, is there a Tips & Tricks thread that I missed out on? I'd like to know how to do super reboots and what all the status codes on the front of the machine mean, how to turn off sleep mode, etc etc.

Oh, my version is 2.4.9_3.

Mikeynavy, what stb do you have?

That is annoying. I can only tell you that it is a Navigator issue and not a SA3000HD issue since SARA does not do this. I will say with SARA when you make such a change to the available resolutions you have to reset the box to lock them in. However I doubt that is the issue since with Navigator, you are pretty much ensured to reboot a lot!

Why did you switch from DISH?

xnappo


Switched from DISH due to apartment complex "suddenly" deciding my dish location was out of compliance and was too much over the balcony.

Mikeynavy, what stb do you have?

SA8300HDC

Hi. This is my first post. I just wanted you guys to know I recently purchased a 2nd hdtv and was given the navigator software and 8300hdc box. I have to concur with everyone - it is awful. It is as if they gave me windows 98 after having xp. Anyway, i dont have to list the litany of problems the software has but I thought you should be aware in

Queens, New York -Time Warner Cable - they still have the old 8300hd boxes with the passport software. I just swapped my new box with the good old reliable 8300hd. The location of Time Warner center is in Queens Center Mall in Woodhaven New York. Maybe u guys know this and are way ahead of the program but I thought I might mention it.

LyleG

P.S. Does anyone know who to stretch out the channel guide to fit the length of the tv. I stretched out the picture but the guide seems formatted for standard tv.

Hi. This is my first post. I just wanted you guys to know I recently purchased a 2nd hdtv and was given the navigator software and 8300hdc box. I have to concur with everyone - it is awful. It is as if they gave me windows 98 after having xp. Anyway, i dont have to list the litany of problems the software has but I thought you should be aware in

Queens, New York -Time Warner Cable - they still have the old 8300hd boxes with the passport software. I just swapped my new box with the good old reliable 8300hd. The location of Time Warner center is in Queens Center Mall in Woodhaven New York. Maybe u guys know this and are way ahead of the program but I thought I might mention it.

LyleG

P.S. Does anyone know who to stretch out the channel guide to fit the length of the tv. I stretched out the picture but the guide seems formatted for standard tv.

The Scientific Atlanta 8240HD(C) and 8300HD(C) series set top boxes can only generate 640x480x16 bit per pixel graphics internally. This does not permit widescreen graphical user interfaces to be implemented. You will have to wait for Time Warner Cable to replace its boxes with the 8540HDC, 8550HDC, or 8552HDC boxes which can draw 960x540x32 bit per pixel graphics to use a widescreen-capable guide.

As for what is causing the Navigator to crash all the time, consensus seems to be that the software and hardware are big pieces of junk. The 8300HDC and 8240HDC hardware that the OCAP version of Navigator runs on does not comply with the minimum graphical requirements of OCAP, which require at least 960x540 graphics. Other OCAP-based guides and guides running native machine code written specifically for these cable boxes on other cable systems are also having problems, making us believe that these boxes are unstable platforms to run anything on. When used on a demonstration 8550HDC unit at the last Consumer Electronics Show, Navigator ran quickly and without problems. However, Navigator itself is not bug-free because the box crashes when an eSATA drive is connected to it in recent versions. Old versions handled eSATA drives fine.

I feel that TWC management needs to wise up and replace all of those faulty 8300HDCs and 8240HDCs with 8542HDCs, 8550HDCs, or 8552HDCs because trying to write software that won't crash is an exercise in futiltiy when the platforms the products run on are crash-prone. That way, the programmers writing Navigator will not be going down wild goose chases because the platform is causing the crash or problem. This will also save them the expense of replacing the boxes when the eventual move from MPEG-2 to H.264 and VC-1 occurs. The only thing they will need to replace in this case would be the head end video compressor equipment.

So the versions out there are:

For "C" boxes: 2.4.9_3
For non-"C" boxes: 2.4.1-92

How do you check the software on a SA8300HDC? I tried doing the reboot last night...Info+Volume-+ Volume+ and HDMI still as unchangeable resolution settings (can't force 1080i).

How do you check the software on a SA8300HDC? I tried doing the reboot last night...Info+Volume-+ Volume+ and HDMI still as unchangeable resolution settings (can't force 1080i).

For the software diagnostics, hold down the SELECT button until the mail/message icon flashes on the STB display, then press the down arrow.

For hardware diagonostics, ON THE STB BOX, hold down the Vol+ and Vol- buttons at the same time until the mail/message icon flashes on the display and then press the Ch+ button.

In Feb 2008 I got an HD box from TWC NYC (Scientific Atlanta 3000HDC/Mystro). I can record most shows (like sitcoms) as a series. However some sporting events, like “NHL Hockey”, “NBA Basketball” or “MLB Baseball” (on MSG/27 & MSGHD/727 for example) cannot be recorded as a series. The option to record as a series simply does not appear in the list of options after pressing the “Record” button. The “record as a series” option did (and does) appear for these sporting events on SD cable boxes.

Yesterday, I spent 45 minutes with TWC tech support. We re-set my HD box and then they confirmed that the problem is inherent with the box and/or guide. I told tech support that I used to be able to do it with my SD box and they confirmed with the SD box in their office that it can be done with an SD box. I am nearly certain that my SD box had the Passport guide software.

Obviously, this is a major inconvenience because I now must schedule these recordings manually :mad:

I am contemplating writing to TWC about this. It might be helpful to be able to say the problem is nationwide (if it is). Has anyone from outside NYC experienced this? Or have a solution/work-around?

Jesus, I can't believe they're going to roll this out at the onset of March Madness. AHAHAHAH what the hell are they thinking!? I loathe the day that piece of crap hits my 8300HD :(

Jesus, I can't believe they're going to roll this out at the onset of March Madness. AHAHAHAH what the hell are they thinking!? I loathe the day that piece of crap hits my 8300HD :(

Maybe, but most of the problems Navigator has are when it's running on an SA8300HDC. New hardware AND new software generally don't mix out of the gate.

That said, I have the SA8300HDC and Navigator and when I had 2.4.5_4, I had *very* few problems. I would have liked another feature or two, but as far as actual problems, not so much. However, I do have a couple of new problems with 2.4.9_3, presumably due to the support of output resolutions when connected with HDMI. Currently, I'm seeing the problem of the picture getting "stuck" in the upper right corner when leaving the guide a couple of times a day, and when that happens, it also looks like the STB gets "stuck" in 480i mode. But changing the channel and then back again seems to fix it fine. I think someone suggested using the PIP to fix this and while it corrects the stuck in the corner problem, that seems to still leave you in 480i. Note that I have all output resolutions enabled. Not sure how it would react if I only chose 1080i or 1080i & 720p.

I should also add that I don't have an external SATA drive attached. That alone seems to be a massive source of trouble and frustration for people.

How fast does this boot up for most people? I was playing around with ODN running on the Explorer 4250HDC in my housemate's bedroom, and it had to have taken 10 minutes to boot up, first showing a kind of garbled SciAtl screen with some Gemstar/TV Guide stuff, then the Mystro screen while it cycled through "Ait" in the display through a bunch of "L-xx" numbers.

it also looks like the STB gets "stuck" in 480i mode

A further note about this. While the box display says 480i, it's clearly not. You can tell the tv is actually receiving 720p or 1080i and in fact if you go to the Output Resolution setting, that's what will be selected. I noticed that when switching the channel, it first shows the higher resolution and then drops back down before the "no signal" message goes away on my Philips. It's like the box isn't waiting long enough for the TV to respond to the switch with HDMI.

New "Channel Group" function showed up on TWC-SD
(using "MDN" on SA8300HD).

When tuning to a channel that is part of a "Channel Group",
a small "For Enhanced Press SEL" menu pops up on left side.

When pressed, a larger menu allows quick channel change
to another member of that "Channel Group", make current
channel a FAVORITE, RECORD current channel, or EXIT.

SELECT can be pressed at any time to bring up this new menu.
"Channel Groups" include ENCORE, HBO, SHO, STARZ, etc.

I'm underwhelmed....and programmer could have been fixing PROBLEMS!!!!

A further note about this. While the box display says 480i, it's clearly not. You can tell the tv is actually receiving 720p or 1080i and in fact if you go to the Output Resolution setting, that's what will be selected. I noticed that when switching the channel, it first shows the higher resolution and then drops back down before the "no signal" message goes away on my Philips. It's like the box isn't waiting long enough for the TV to respond to the switch with HDMI.

However, if you check the output of the TV you will see that it is indeed 480i trying to be upscaled. Frustrating, isn't it?

I did a reboot and just checked my software version...the upgrade hasn't been done in San Diego yet, apparently.

However, if you check the output of the TV you will see that it is indeed 480i trying to be upscaled. Frustrating, isn't it?

I don't believe that's the case for me (YMMV). As I said, while the display panel on the box says 480i, the Output Resolution setting shows 720p or 1080i (because it highlights the value of the current channel). It is also very obvious from the picture quality that it's an HD signal. It's not nearly blocky enough looking to make me believe that I'm looking at some upconverted 480i signal.

In any case, I can't get it to "fail" at the moment (the display shows the right resolution) and the picture looks the same as when the display flipped back to 480i. The next time it does, I'll see what the TV says the signal is.

The "stuck in the upper right corner" isn't happening anymore at the moment either though it was doing it regularly earlier this evening (and the TV and box have been on the whole time - no reboot).

I did notice another odd thing earlier that I've not seen anyone mention. I have scheduled recordings (from a series recording) scheduled for later this weekend, but when I check the guide, that show is not on at that time. Really weird. I don't think I'm missing any recordings that should be scheduled, just looks like there are some phantom extras.

Maybe, but most of the problems Navigator has are when it's running on an SA8300HDC. New hardware AND new software generally don't mix out of the gate.

That said, I have the SA8300HDC and Navigator and when I had 2.4.5_4, I had *very* few problems. I would have liked another feature or two, but as far as actual problems, not so much. However, I do have a couple of new problems with 2.4.9_3, presumably due to the support of output resolutions when connected with HDMI. Currently, I'm seeing the problem of the picture getting "stuck" in the upper right corner when leaving the guide a couple of times a day, and when that happens, it also looks like the STB gets "stuck" in 480i mode. But changing the channel and then back again seems to fix it fine. I think someone suggested using the PIP to fix this and while it corrects the stuck in the corner problem, that seems to still leave you in 480i. Note that I have all output resolutions enabled. Not sure how it would react if I only chose 1080i or 1080i & 720p.

I should also add that I don't have an external SATA drive attached. That alone seems to be a massive source of trouble and frustration for people.

I have external drive attached, and the "record something all the time" workaround works well, so far - no issues since I've done that two days ago. Of course, it is a pain to always make sure you don't have conflicts. For locals who may be interested, I use channel 100 as my record-all-the-time channel. It has only one show - "Weather Now" - that repeates 24 hrs a day in 4 hour blocks; it is SD, so it does not take that much space; would be handy if we could select to keep only one, rather than minimum of 3 episodes.

Another thing I noticed: it looks (I may be wrong here, but all indications are) that "watching the show while it is recording" (especially when both tuners are recording) got much more robust in 2.4.9_3; I used to avoid it as any trick play action while watching channel live with both tuners working would stop the recording on that channel; even just tuning to one of the recording channels would sometimes stop the recording. I tried purposly a few things and it would not break now (maybe it is not working as hard since one of the tuners is tuned into an SD). This makes the "record all the time" workaround more bearable. Can somebody check if this is the case for you as well?

In Cary, NC my 8300HDC received 2.4.9_3 sometime over the last week or so. Biggest change I'm noticing with it is that it is having a harder time synching my HDMI signal to the TV than it used to. Turn box and TV on together with the System power button on the remote, and it usually takes 10 seconds or so for the TV picture to come on (vs near instantaneous before). Fun part is sometimes it never wants to show a picture (or at least after 30 seconds has not shown a picture) and I need to turn it off and on a couple of times to get the picture to come through.

I'll report on stability when I've had it for 2 or 3 weeks without rebooting it.

My 8300HD has not been upgraded yet.

I have external drive attached, and the "record something all the time" workaround works well, so far - no issues since I've done that two days ago. Of course, it is a pain to always make sure you don't have conflicts. For locals who may be interested, I use channel 100 as my record-all-the-time channel. It has only one show - "Weather Now" - that repeates 24 hrs a day in 4 hour blocks; it is SD, so it does not take that much space; would be handy if we could select to keep only one, rather than minimum of 3 episodes.I've asked this question before, but I haven't gotten a definitive answer. Concerning the technique of recording 4-hour blocks, don't you still run the risk of the system going into sleep mode if you cancel a specific block that conflicts with a recording that falls in either the first or last hour of the block? It seems that in either case, you could have a race condition where the system will be idle for 3 hours and enter sleep mode before the next recording begins. Also, do you find it inconvenient dealing with the clutter in your Scheduled Recordings list?

The "stuck in the upper right corner" isn't happening anymore at the moment either though it was doing it regularly earlier this evening (and the TV and box have been on the whole time - no reboot).

That means it's still broken :P

most of the problems Navigator has are when it's running on an SA8300HDC. New hardware AND new software generally don't mix out of the gate.
.

got the letter the other day saying navigator was coming this month. i thought about exchanging my box for a new one soon after.
it sounds like perhaps i should hold onto my old 8300hd box, correct?

also, i haven't had a chance to read this thread, just finished the last 4 pages. is there a post anywhere for tips and tricks?

Maybe, but most of the problems Navigator has are when it's running on an SA8300HDC. New hardware AND new software generally don't mix out of the gate.It should be noted (and has been, previously in this thread) that the version of Navigator running on the Explorer 8300HDC is vastly different than that running on the Explorer 8300HD and other "legacy" boxes. The "C" boxes are running OCAP Digital Navigator, which is a re-write of the Mystro Digital Navigator running on the legacy boxes. MDN was the original version, which was written in C to run on the PowerTV RTOS, using much the same S-A middleware as is used by the Passport Echo and SARA IPGs. ODN is a version of MDN rewritten in Java to run on the Open Cable Applications Platform, a Java execution environment with its own defined set of support functions. ODN is portable and can be downloaded to run in new third party "<tru2way>" compliant televisions and set-tops due to start shipping this year; it has been demonstrated at product shows running on prototype Samsung televisions without any set-top box involved.

Another thing I noticed: it looks (I may be wrong here, but all indications are) that "watching the show while it is recording" (especially when both tuners are recording) got much more robust in 2.4.9_3; I used to avoid it as any trick play action while watching channel live with both tuners working would stop the recording on that channel; even just tuning to one of the recording channels would sometimes stop the recording. I tried purposly a few things and it would not break now (maybe it is not working as hard since one of the tuners is tuned into an SD). This makes the "record all the time" workaround more bearable. Can somebody check if this is the case for you as well?

My experience with 2.4.9_3 is limited thus far, but I did have one issue. I was recording one HD program while watching another SD channel on approx. 45 min. delay (but not actually "recording" it). It was working fine, then the whole picture dimmed (like it does when entering the 9-page diagnostic screen), and the message "Please wait..." appeared. A few seconds later it was gone, and so was my viewing buffer--it took me back to live action on the SD channel with no ability to rewind.

That means it's still broken :P

Well broken with no symptoms I can live with. ;)
And I've been symptom free all day today.

Anybody know if there's anything you can do about the atrocious location of the Picture In Picture?

I'd like to be able to cram it all the way in the corner of the screen, but alas...

Anybody know if there's anything you can do about the atrocious location of the Picture In Picture?

I'd like to be able to cram it all the way in the corner of the screen, but alas...

Not on the current hardware. As I understand it, it's the result of the limited graphics resolution of the box but is "fixed" in the next generation of SA boxes (presuming the software is also updated to leverage the ability). It's the same thing preventing the guide from using the extra space to show more programming time.

But I agree, the current situation makes PIP a pretty useless feature.

I've asked this question before, but I haven't gotten a definitive answer. Concerning the technique of recording 4-hour blocks, don't you still run the risk of the system going into sleep mode if you cancel a specific block that conflicts with a recording that falls in either the first or last hour of the block? It seems that in either case, you could have a race condition where the system will be idle for 3 hours and enter sleep mode before the next recording begins. Also, do you find it inconvenient dealing with the clutter in your Scheduled Recordings list?

You are absolutely right about the 3 hr of idle time possibility; however, I have not cancelled a single 4 hour block yet. For me to do that, I'd have to have 2 "normal" recordings that overlap. The overlaps were not that frequent for me before - about twice a week, one due to football, the other due to House/Unit overlap; I record a lot of movies from HDNet, but they all have showings during non-prime time hours, so no overlaps there either. With the football season done, and most shows done due to writer's strike, overlaps do not happen at all now, and I don't anticipate any happening until fall (maybe they'll fix this by then). If/when overlap happens, and in such a way that after canceling the 4 hr block I have a 3 hrs window with nothing scheduled, I'll just record any show during those 3 hours. A hassle, for sure, but since it is, in my case, very infrequent, it is not worth giving up extra storage. So far, (it's been only a few days, so I can't be sure) it appears that preventing sleep mode is enough to have no issues with external drive (other than the hassle that goes with making sure sleep mode is prevented).

By the way, it would be really nice to have some reasonable way to put the block recordings to the bottom of the priority list; currently they are on top, and the only way to lower their priority is to cancel and recreate other series recordings in order to up their priority. That is a lot of hassle, and also it is impossible to do for shows not airing within the week.

The block recordings are indeed cluttering all kinds of lists and that is, actually, the worst hassle related to preventing sleep mode in my case. And you are right, Scheduled Recordings is the worst offender. This is the main reason I like 4 hr blocks - there's fewer of them.

Problem I am having with 2.4.9_3 is that unlike previous versions the software doesnt lock the resolution to the max supported by the source signal. When you goto Settings>Displays the message "cannot be changed while in HDMI" is no longer there, and you can choose from the 4 standard resolutions. This seems to be the biggest problem for the box, its not polling the HDMI and automatically changing the resolution to what ever it should, for me its staying at 480p and we all know thats crap.

I have tried only choosing 1080i as the output and tried choosing only 1080i, 720p. But the same problem exists, the box eventually gets screwed up and stays in 480p weather its on a HD or SD channel.

I wish I could receive DirecTv here at my apartment!

Just got off the phone with TWC tech support and he told me that they DO NOT SUPPORT HDMI port, only Component Cables.

What a piece of **** operation!

Just got off the phone with TWC tech support and he told me that they DO NOT SUPPORT HDMI port, only Component Cables.

What a piece of **** operation!Yeah, they like to say that. You can tell them that the Federal regulations governing their operation says that they're required to support HDMI. Code of Federal Regulations Title 47, §76.640 (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=978fe94c78c20fb68144628a95f35e8c&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:4.0.1.1.4.11.3.15&idno=47)(b)(4)(ii) states:(ii) Effective July 1, 2005, include both a DVI or HDMI interface and an IEEE 1394 interface on all high definition set-top boxes acquired by a cable operator for distribution to customers.If they don't respond to simply being informed of this, you may have to formally press the matter. Find out who your local cable franchising authority is and send them a letter (sending the management of TWC a carbon) complaining about the infraction of regulations.

Problem I am having with 2.4.9_3 is that unlike previous versions the software doesnt lock the resolution to the max supported by the source signal. When you goto Settings>Displays the message "cannot be changed while in HDMI" is no longer there, and you can choose from the 4 standard resolutions. This seems to be the biggest problem for the box, its not polling the HDMI and automatically changing the resolution to what ever it should, for me its staying at 480p and we all know thats crap.

I have tried only choosing 1080i as the output and tried choosing only 1080i, 720p. But the same problem exists, the box eventually gets screwed up and stays in 480p weather its on a HD or SD channel.

I wish I could receive DirecTv here at my apartment!

That sucks...I'm running component right now only because it lets me stay with 1080i. I don't like having the resolution change with HDMI...I want it to stay at 1080i. Channels change faster and my eyes show me a much better picture, regardless of original signal. Looks like I'll be staying with component until they fix this and don't have it revert to 480p. I don't have the new software yet here on the West Coast.

Hi All,

I've been checking in with this thread off and on for a while now. I know I will eventually be getting Navigator (soon I think), so I'm curious how the software has been coming along. I noticed a lot of frustrated people in this thread, but overall, has the software improved any? I have an HDC DVR running SARA, with no ext drive connected. I am really loooking forward to the added features of Navigator, but I'm hoping the software will be stable soon. I know you are all still pretty upset with TWC for the crappy software they released, but do any of you feel they might be close to having a stable version soon? I mean it seems like TWC are constantly releasing updates to try and get the software stable, so it's not like they don't know about the problems. Anyone care to guess how close they think we are to a stable version?

Hi All,

I've been checking in with this thread off and on for a while now. I know I will eventually be getting Navigator (soon I think), so I'm curious how the software has been coming along. I noticed a lot of frustrated people in this thread, but overall, has the software improved any? I have an HDC DVR running SARA, with no ext drive connected. I am really loooking forward to the added features of Navigator, but I'm hoping the software will be stable soon. I know you are all still pretty upset with TWC for the crappy software they released, but do any of you feel they might be close to having a stable version soon? I mean it seems like TWC are constantly releasing updates to try and get the software stable, so it's not like they don't know about the problems. Anyone care to guess how close they think we are to a stable version?

It would seem is if nothing has really been added to the feature list. Only thing I know for a fact is that updates are few and often create more issues than noticeable fixes. I am a software developer for a large development corporation, and if we released stuff with this many obvious bugs we would be out of business fast.

The fact that there are so many new technologies being phased into existence over coax I can see that it may be hard to keep up. But the problems that are hampering 99% of the people complaining on the forums could be fixed with minimal patch work.

TWC please get your **** together! And yes to the PM's, I will be going to another provider ASAP once I am in a situation to receive such service.

dack,

After TWC replaced my 8300HD box with the HDC OCAP box, my cable was pretty much unusable most of the month of December. That's when Google lead me to this forum. Since some time in January it has been a lot better, i.e. usable most of the time, DVR works most of the time, etc.

Whether the improvements in my service have been due to the software, who's to say? In my area there are signal problems + SW problems. For example, last night at a little after midnight all channels went to hell with digital tiling, audio dropouts, etc. even though it had been working great for at least a couple hours before that. I decided that rather than try to reboot and risk having nothing to watch, I'd just watch shows from the DVR and try the reboot in the morning.

The morning reboot failed several times, ending in E-13. I called CS and scheduled a service call. A coupe hours later the reboot finally worked and it has been working OK since then.

I guess my point is that the software version I have currently is half-decent as long as there aren't network problems because then you have a real snowball effect on your hands. (I was hesitant to use the word "stable" because it does exhibit some flaky behavior at times, primarily in regard to DVR)

Good luck.
-Marty

dack,

After TWC replaced my 8300HD box with the HDC OCAP box, my cable was pretty much unusable most of the month of December. That's when Google lead me to this forum. Since some time in January it has been a lot better, i.e. usable most of the time, DVR works most of the time, etc.

Whether the improvements in my service have been due to the software, who's to say? In my area there are signal problems + SW problems. For example, last night at a little after midnight all channels went to hell with digital tiling, audio dropouts, etc. even though it had been working great for at least a couple hours before that. I decided that rather than try to reboot and risk having nothing to watch, I'd just watch shows from the DVR and try the reboot in the morning.

The morning reboot failed several times, ending in E-13. I called CS and scheduled a service call. A coupe hours later the reboot finally worked and it has been working OK since then.

I guess my point is that the software version I have currently is half-decent as long as there aren't network problems because then you have a real snowball effect on your hands. (I was hesitant to use the word "stable" because it does exhibit some flaky behavior at times, primarily in regard to DVR)

Good luck.
-Marty

I feel bad for you folks who have to be the guinea pigs for this new guide, especially if you didn't ask to be. I'm still looking forward to the new features of Navigator though. Although my SARA guide is rock solid, it is sorely lacking in features. Right now I would say my cabling, DVR, and even new SDV deployment is working great, so if I get upgraded to Navigator and there are problems, I can assume it is Navigator that will be the issue. I have to say after reading more of the posts on this thread, it does seem like they are making some significant progress on Navigator. I agree they rushed this thing out the door in a really bad state, but I'm hopeful it will be ready for mass deployment soon.

I feel bad for you folks who have to be the guinea pigs for this new guide, especially if you didn't ask to be. I'm still looking forward to the new features of Navigator though. Although my SARA guide is rock solid, it is sorely lacking in features. Right now I would say my cabling, DVR, and even new SDV deployment is working great, so if I get upgraded to Navigator and there are problems, I can assume it is Navigator that will be the issue. I have to say after reading more of the posts on this thread, it does seem like they are making some significant progress on Navigator. I agree they rushed this thing out the door in a really bad state, but I'm hopeful it will be ready for mass deployment soon.

dack, be careful what you wish for. Navigator has been out for TWO YEARS! It is still bug laden and un-reliable. You should have the same version of SARA as I do, and I concur that it is rock solid. All it really lacks is an updated GUI, customizabilty and a usable search. Sure there are other features they could add, but I'd be happy with those three while keeping the stability.

I've contacted Jeff Unaitis about Navigator deployment in our market and was told first quarter of 2008. Well, that has pretty much come and gone, so I contacted him again about it, but have not heard back.

dack, be careful what you wish for. Navigator has been out for TWO YEARS! It is still bug laden and un-reliable. You should have the same version of SARA as I do, and I concur that it is rock solid. All it really lacks is an updated GUI, customizabilty and a usable search. Sure there are other features they could add, but I'd be happy with those three while keeping the stability.

I've contacted Jeff Unaitis about Navigator deployment in our market and was told first quarter of 2008. Well, that has pretty much come and gone, so I contacted him again about it, but have not heard back.

Wow! I had no idea it's been out that long! I'll be interested to hear what Jeff has to say.

I've contacted Jeff Unaitis about Navigator deployment in our market and was told first quarter of 2008. Well, that has pretty much come and gone, so I contacted him again about it, but have not heard back.

Not exactly. There are still two weeks left in the quarter. ;)

I've heard that Navigator has been around for a while (I've heard the two years before), but I find that a bit confusing. Where were they running it? It seems all the initial focus has been on the SA8300HDC box, but clearly that box has not been available that long. So on what box(es) was the initial development/deployments of Navigator?

What I currently find most frustrating as a customer/user is the lack of a clear way to report problems. I seriously doubt the developers are inept or incompetent and I'd just like a way to provide in the field feedback about what the big problems we're experiencing are. Simply calling 4TWCNOW and trying to explain anything to the outsource bots is a complete waste of time and likely never gets back to those who could really use the information.

Heck, make Navigator open source and I'll help fix it. ;)

Not exactly. There are still two weeks left in the quarter. ;)

I've heard that Navigator has been around for a while (I've heard the two years before), but I find that a bit confusing. Where were they running it? It seems all the initial focus has been on the SA8300HDC box, but clearly that box has not been available that long. So on what box(es) was the initial development/deployments of Navigator?


From an old article regarding Navigator deployment:


October 24, 2006

Steer the Course: Time Warner Busily Rolling Out Navigator
By CableFAX Daily

After months of trials, Time Warner Cable has quietly started the commercial rollout of its "Navigator" digital platform and IPG, which TW has already uploaded to some 20K homes in Lincoln, NE. It plans to reach the same number of Milwaukee homes by the end of this week. "We've gotten the thumbs up to roll it out to the rest of our divisions," said Julie Simon, vp, video product mgmt. "Our timeline is to have everyone on board by mid next year." A large portion of Time Warner subs are expected to get Navigator by the end of 1Q. Navigator's new IPG features include setting favorite channels to appear first in the guide, sorting programming vertically and horizontally, and being able to find and record shows with DVR up to 2 weeks in advance. It also lets viewers search for broadcast, cable and VOD programming by title, theme, rating and channel up to 8 days in advance. Also new are parental controls allowing parents to block programming by content (language, violence, etc), and slow-mo for DVR users. But Navigator's real motivation is its open architecture, which helps Time Warner push its ITV strategy. While several markets already have introduced ITV features such as "eBay on TV" and "Start Over," Navigator should ease rollouts going forward. Without the new tech, TW would need to layer application over application, eventually running out of room. In addition, Navigator will let TW make its Start Over service available to everyone next year and assist in launching switched digital video. TW's looking at new ITV apps under the platform, including online bill pay, mosaics (the ability to watch several screens of programming on 1 channel), impulse buys (purchase a premium channel with a click of the remote) and games.


Link to full article HERE (http://www.cable360.net/business/advancedsvcs/20403.html).

So, while it may not be two years to the day, but it's pretty darn close.

Again, I wasn't disputing the timeline, just asking what hardware they initially were deploying these to. We've seen that the rollout is first targeted at the SA8300HDC box which I didn't think were being distributed back then. Did everyone in Lincoln Nebraska have SA8300HDC boxes back in October of 2006? If they had initially developed for one of their other currently deployed boxes, why would they not start the rollout on those? So how much of the trouble they are having is due to a switch in the target hardware? Yes, it's been out for 18 months, but what good is that if it wasn't built/designed for the hardware they are rolling it out on now?

It's like saying that your software has been out for nearly two years already so it should have all the kinks worked out except that it was initially designed for the Mac and has more recently been transitioned to the PC.

Again, my big issue remains the lack of a useful, constructive feedback channel. I don't expect any software to be flawless. I'm sure SARA wasn't "rock solid" when it initially debuted nor was Passport. It took time for them to reach the level they have. As with all software, you can't get nearly the in-house test coverage that you'll get by releasing to the field. But what could be a benefit becomes a loss and source of endless frustration if you can't learn from what the field is experiencing. Not to mention it just makes you look unresponsive.

Not exactly. There are still two weeks left in the quarter. ;)

I've heard that Navigator has been around for a while (I've heard the two years before), but I find that a bit confusing. Where were they running it? It seems all the initial focus has been on the SA8300HDC box, but clearly that box has not been available that long. So on what box(es) was the initial development/deployments of Navigator?

What I currently find most frustrating as a customer/user is the lack of a clear way to report problems. I seriously doubt the developers are inept or incompetent and I'd just like a way to provide in the field feedback about what the big problems we're experiencing are. Simply calling 4TWCNOW and trying to explain anything to the outsource bots is a complete waste of time and likely never gets back to those who could really use the information.

Heck, make Navigator open source and I'll help fix it. ;)

I agree about no way to inform them about the bugs. I sent TWC an email (through their web site) listing the new (i.e. not happening on 2.4.5_4) bugs and asking to have it forwarded to somebody in charge of software development. The answer I got was "Please try rebooting your cable box." Don't know whether to get mad or laugh.

On the other hand, I seriously doubt that the developers are reasonably compentent.

They introduced ability to pick resolution over HDMI, rather than pass-through, which used to work fine; that may be nice for some people, were it not for the little issue that it is unstable, i.e. broken. In over 6 months with older version, I had not a single issue with it, now at least once a day it will stick to the corner. Also, sometimes when I turn it on, it shows the whole thing in 4:3 window in the middle; if I turn on the channel guide, it is shown it yet smaller piece of that. Changing channels does not help, I have to go to the Output Resolutions menu and change some setting, any setting, just to have it reload or something.

They broke the support for picking only one of New episodes, and also the support to schedule that episode around conflicts. That can be tested quickly, it does not have to wait for a random failure like HDMI thing.

They introduced sleep mode, which broke support for external drives very badly, and, I belive, broke buffering to some degree as well.

How can they not know that it happens? Is anybody testing this? It is crazy to introduce a new version, with basically no changes to look and feel, but considerably less stable. The only way they do that is if they are incompetent, or do not care at all.

I remember when ReplayTV first came on, the deveopers frequented the corresponding forum, identified themselves as such, took people's input and shared info (including hidden features that did not make the manual), and did mention that each of them had a machine that they were using at home. The thing was (and still is) basically bug-free. TWC developers apparently use satelite.

I agree about no way to inform them about the bugs. I sent TWC an email (through their web site) listing the new (i.e. not happening on 2.4.5_4) bugs and asking to have it forwarded to somebody in charge of software development. The answer I got was "Please try rebooting your cable box." Don't know whether to get mad or laugh.

On the other hand, I seriously doubt that the developers are reasonably compentent.

They introduced ability to pick resolution over HDMI, rather than pass-through, which used to work fine; that may be nice for some people, were it not for the little issue that it is unstable, i.e. broken. In over 6 months with older version, I had not a single issue with it, now at least once a day it will stick to the corner. Also, sometimes when I turn it on, it shows the whole thing in 4:3 window in the middle; if I turn on the channel guide, it is shown it yet smaller piece of that. Changing channels does not help, I have to go to the Output Resolutions menu and change some setting, any setting, just to have it reload or something.

They broke the support for picking only one of New episodes, and also the support to schedule that episode around conflicts. That can be tested quickly, it does not have to wait for a random failure like HDMI thing.

They introduced sleep mode, which broke support for external drives very badly, and, I belive, broke buffering to some degree as well.

How can they not know that it happens? Is anybody testing this? It is crazy to introduce a new version, with basically no changes to look and feel, but considerably less stable. The only way they do that is if they are incompetent, or do not care at all.

I remember when ReplayTV first came on, the deveopers frequented the corresponding forum, identified themselves as such, took people's input and shared info (including hidden features that did not make the manual), and did mention that each of them had a machine that they were using at home. The thing was (and still is) basically bug-free. TWC developers apparently use satelite.

Great post, I am also in Cary... Were screwed, TWC doesnt care about how many customers they piss off in the process of implementing new equipment.

I wish that there was an alternative to TWC cable besides Satellite access. If Verizon's FiOS ever gets around here then I can tell you where I am going!

How can they not know that it happens? Is anybody testing this? It is crazy to introduce a new version, with basically no changes to look and feel, but considerably less stable. The only way they do that is if they are incompetent, or do not care at all.

There is no excuse for the reduction in stability. Absolutely right. I *suspect* we're seeing these issues due to some sort of consolidation effort. Things are being made available (like Output Resolution) that were available in one configuration or platform but not another. And lord only knows what's going with MDN vs. ODN functionality. This one's likely a huge mess since one (as I understand it) uses C/C++ while the other is Java based. Being a software developer myself, and I readily admit there are plenty of incompetent ones around, I've also seen what horrid project management can do to software quality, and the fact that this is being rolled out "under the gun" screams bad management. I'm also mystified by how they are creating a common software base and yet each division is apparently rolling out different versions at significantly different times. How the heck does one explain that?!? (except that it's bad, uncoordinated management).

As for the external drive, I understand everyone's pain there. But honestly, I don't doubt for a second that from TWC's perspective the "bug" was that it was ever working at all. I don't know why they take this position, but I honestly think they don't want it to work. Hopefully I'm wrong.

Maybe FiOS will be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but at this point, I think it'll probably just be another "grass is always greener" situation. We'll see.

I'd love to alternate cable providers within the same market. I can only imagine what would happen if Comcast or Cox were allowed into the market here. People would jump at alarming numbers to get the Tivo software. Not saying they didn't have issues as well, but at least they have competent programmers working on the solution.

I've said that I'd like to see TWC offer a Tivo solution, but it's become completely obvious that they are sticking with Navigator no matter what. Even if they are losing money like mad, they will not scrap it. If that was the case, they would have done it by now.

I'd love to alternate cable providers within the same market. I can only imagine what would happen if Comcast or Cox were allowed into the market here. People would jump at alarming numbers to get the Tivo software. Not saying they didn't have issues as well, but at least they have competent programmers working on the solution.

I've said that I'd like to see TWC offer a Tivo solution, but it's become completely obvious that they are sticking with Navigator no matter what. Even if they are losing money like mad, they will not scrap it. If that was the case, they would have done it by now.

Sad but true.

Skid

I've said that I'd like to see TWC offer a Tivo solution, but it's become completely obvious that they are sticking with Navigator no matter what. Even if they are losing money like mad, they will not scrap it. If that was the case, they would have done it by now.

Done what? They've really only been deploying Navigator just recently (6 months maybe?) in any meaningful numbers, and upset people on this forum notwithstanding, I've seen zero evidence they are losing money, much less like mad, so why would they scrap anything at this point? I guess I'm just the TWC apologist because I just don't see anything that isn't correctable. What I also don't see, and find frustrating, is any information about what's going on with the software group. I can't even keep up with the versions because every division seems to have something different deployed. How can that lend itself to a coherent development process? But that's a management issue, not a coding one.

If they weren't going to pay whoever for Passport, and apparently don't want to pay Cisco for SARA despite buying their hardware, why would they pay Tivo? But I'm naive about Tivo, why don't you just go get a Tivo box and a cable card from TWC if you want a Tivo? Their Series3 and HD boxes support this don't they?

... But I'm naive about Tivo, why don't you just go get a Tivo box and a cable card from TWC if you want a Tivo? Their Series3 and HD boxes support this don't they?

Tivo does not support SDV (requires 2-way communication), so if in your market TWC goes to SDV, you won't be able to watch any SDVed channels with Tivo. A dongle is promised to handle this "soon", since Tivo was (rightfully) raising hell that cable companies are using SDV as a way to shut out 3rd party people; note that non-integrated security was forced on cable companies in order to allow 3rd party STB (and other stuff) makers to compete. Now, the people in charge of making the dongle would never make it if they were not basically forced into making it; they either have no interest in making it, or it is even in their interest not to make it (except for the "but they must do it or else" part). Also, they don't exactly have a history of making quality stuff. They don't do things right when they stand to make/lose money on it, why expect that they would do a good job on something they are doing just to get FCC off their back? So, I'll seriously consider Tivo only after the dongle is out and it appears to be working reasonably well.

...

As for the external drive, I understand everyone's pain there. But honestly, I don't doubt for a second that from TWC's perspective the "bug" was that it was ever working at all. I don't know why they take this position, but I honestly think they don't want it to work. Hopefully I'm wrong.

...

I hope so, too. If TWC people who are responsible for doing this were actually using the product they are responsible for, they'd be bitching about the tiny drives as well, and they'd make sure external drives work.

Done what? They've really only been deploying Navigator just recently (6 months maybe?) in any meaningful numbers, and upset people on this forum notwithstanding, I've seen zero evidence they are losing money, much less like mad, so why would they scrap anything at this point? I guess I'm just the TWC apologist because I just don't see anything that isn't correctable. What I also don't see, and find frustrating, is any information about what's going on with the software group. I can't even keep up with the versions because every division seems to have something different deployed. How can that lend itself to a coherent development process? But that's a management issue, not a coding one.

If they weren't going to pay whoever for Passport, and apparently don't want to pay Cisco for SARA despite buying their hardware, why would they pay Tivo? But I'm naive about Tivo, why don't you just go get a Tivo box and a cable card from TWC if you want a Tivo? Their Series3 and HD boxes support this don't they?

I didn't mean it as if they are currently losing money. I meant it in a way that no matter what is happening, they are not going to abandon it. I feel that if they were going to scrap it, they would have done so by now. I used money for the example because that is most likely how they are going to look at things. I should have made that point more clear, sorry. However, this project has to be costing them something significant with the constant continuous work needing to be done.

Pedjar basically covered the Tivo situation and the only thing I'll add to that is I'd also lose the ability to view all my "On-Demand" channels. It should be noted that our market is already using SDV. As far as paying a third party vendor, I figure that if you are going to, you might as well go with the tried and true with brand recognition. That said, IF and this is a big IF, Tivo releases a set top that can seamlessly integrate into our cable system then I will go for it.

Tivo does not support SDV (requires 2-way communication), so if in your market TWC goes to SDV, you won't be able to watch any SDVed channels with Tivo. A dongle is promised to handle this "soon", since Tivo was (rightfully) raising hell that cable companies are using SDV as a way to shut out 3rd party people; note that non-integrated security was forced on cable companies in order to allow 3rd party STB (and other stuff) makers to compete. Now, the people in charge of making the dongle would never make it if they were not basically forced into making it; they either have no interest in making it, or it is even in their interest not to make it (except for the "but they must do it or else" part). Also, they don't exactly have a history of making quality stuff. They don't do things right when they stand to make/lose money on it, why expect that they would do a good job on something they are doing just to get FCC off their back? So, I'll seriously consider Tivo only after the dongle is out and it appears to be working reasonably well.
FYI: The Tuning Resolver is being developed by Cable Labs....
Yup, the CableCard & OCAP developers....don't get your hopes up too much...

By about the time the Tuning Resolver "dongle" is available, TiVo may be close
to having a new "tru2way" (OCAP) DVR on the market....also many "mainstream"
equipment manufacturers....which will have many new desirable features,
such as MPEG4/IPTV and DSG to speed up F/W download, graphics enabled Guide
and eventually DCAS (throw away that CableCARD). [& I'ld like a mini web browser.]

Hopefully we all have a lot more options by late summer/fall....
Unfortunately, full featured units will be running OCRAP....

PS: Cable developers intend for MPEG4/IPTV to replace many SDV channels
because it's twice as efficient with higher PQ (less macroblocking).
Seems to me this could work in a mixed old/new STB/DVR network,
thereby offloading programs from MPEG2 SDV channels to more efficient
MPEG4/IPTV depending on how the viewer is equipped...

What I currently find most frustrating as a customer/user is the lack of a clear way to report problems. I seriously doubt the developers are inept or incompetent and I'd just like a way to provide in the field feedback about what the big problems we're experiencing are.

I was looking over the Navigator info pages on the TWC N.Carolina website, and it doesn't look like they've set up a direct Feedback form like they have here for the Columbus, OH area:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/MidOhio/products/cable/mdn/Feedback.html

Tivo does not support SDV (requires 2-way communication), so if in your market TWC goes to SDV, you won't be able to watch any SDVed channels with Tivo.

Yeah, I knew that, but hardly any TWC areas have SDV and I've seen no timetable for getting it. So I'm not sure why it would be an issue for those "suffering" with Navigator for nearly two years now. Besides, surely TWC will screw up SDV so badly that it will be another reason for folks to moan and groan and threaten to leave as soon as there is some other option. Of course there will be some reason that other option just isn't viable and they'll just stay around moaning and groaning some more. Damn evil TWC. ;)

However, this project has to be costing them something significant with the constant continuous work needing to be done.

True, but then the licensing fees for SARA and Passport aren't free either and they never stop. Just the fact there are two licensed software platforms must be a concern. Plus the word was that anytime TWC wanted some feature/enhancement, they basically had to cough up more money and then wait until the vendor had the time to do the work and fit in with their other schedules. And again, they have customers with different features because they're on different software. There is value in independence. Now why TWC ever continued to have two different platforms to begin with is a very reasonable question.

Pedjar basically covered the Tivo situation and the only thing I'll add to that is I'd also lose the ability to view all my "On-Demand" channels. It should be noted that our market is already using SDV. As far as paying a third party vendor, I figure that if you are going to, you might as well go with the tried and true with brand recognition. That said, IF and this is a big IF, Tivo releases a set top that can seamlessly integrate into our cable system then I will go for it.

Ah, wasn't aware you already had SDV. How is that working? And yeah, there's OnDemand and PPV too, so apparently there is value add from TWC. I guess the issue for them will be is it worth it to give up OnDemand and PPV business to their customers simply because they won't pay for one of their digital boxes? But yeah, I can imagine them screwing up that business decision. Same as the external drive. If they had any sense, they'd make sure it worked AND made certified, supported drives available for purchase/rent. Yes, some people would go out and buy their own drive, but you know gobs of people would simply buy/rent whatever TWC offered out of "convenience".

I was looking over the Navigator info pages on the TWC N.Carolina website, and it doesn't look like they've set up a direct Feedback form like they have here for the Columbus, OH area:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/MidOhio/products/cable/mdn/Feedback.html

Yeah, I've looked for it a couple of times to no avail. I think there are a couple of other areas that have the feedback page, but it's probably as useful as calling the phone bots. I want an interactive discussion where the developers participate and acknowledge the problems and that they are working on them. Where they let us know what fixes/features are in a given version. Do you ever get a response to feedback submitted through that form other than a "thanks for your feedback"? But I guess it's something. Maybe somebody actually does read those things.

FYI: The Tuning Resolver is being developed by Cable Labs....
Yup, the CableCard & OCAP developers....don't get your hopes up too much...

By about the time the Tuning Resolver "dongle" is available, TiVo may be close
to having a new "tru2way" (OCAP) DVR on the market....also many "mainstream"
equipment manufacturers....which will have many new desirable features,
such as MPEG4/IPTV and DSG to speed up F/W download, graphics enabled Guide
and eventually DCAS (throw away that CableCARD). [& I'ld like a mini web browser.]

Hopefully we all have a lot more options by late summer/fall....
Unfortunately, full featured units will be running OCRAP....

PS: Cable developers intend for MPEG4/IPTV to replace many SDV channels
because it's twice as efficient with higher PQ (less macroblocking).
Seems to me this could work in a mixed old/new STB/DVR network,
thereby offloading programs from MPEG2 SDV channels to more efficient
MPEG4/IPTV depending on how the viewer is equipped...

Yes, the same people that are responsible (at least in part) for the awesome speed and reliability of HDC boxes are developing this, likely with the detailed and correct specs from TWC and other cable companies. I'd be amazed if it works right the first, say, decade. I hope I'm wrong.

Hopefully, the other things you mention will actually work and be done reasonably soon. Unfortunatelly, that's just one more reason to stick with the rented DVR - why bother buying a soon to be obsolete CableCard DVR? Though how soon is "soon" is yet to be determined.

Yeah, I knew that, but hardly any TWC areas have SDV and I've seen no timetable for getting it. So I'm not sure why it would be an issue for those "suffering" with Navigator for nearly two years now. Besides, surely TWC will screw up SDV so badly that it will be another reason for folks to moan and groan and threaten to leave as soon as there is some other option. Of course there will be some reason that other option just isn't viable and they'll just stay around moaning and groaning some more. Damn evil TWC. ;)

The problem is that, at the time, Tivo S3 was $700 or so, and their subscription costs were higher than TWC DVR rental fees (at least in my area). So, the question was whether to spend $700 + higher mothly fees or $0 + lower monthly fees; for a lot of people, that's a no brainer, no matter how big a diference in quality is.
By the time the price went down to $300, the SDV issue surfaced. How convenient.

There is no excuse for the reduction in stability. Absolutely right. I *suspect* we're seeing these issues due to some sort of consolidation effort. Things are being made available (like Output Resolution) that were available in one configuration or platform but not another. And lord only knows what's going with MDN vs. ODN functionality. This one's likely a huge mess since one (as I understand it) uses C/C++ while the other is Java based. Being a software developer myself, and I readily admit there are plenty of incompetent ones around, I've also seen what horrid project management can do to software quality, and the fact that this is being rolled out "under the gun" screams bad management. I'm also mystified by how they are creating a common software base and yet each division is apparently rolling out different versions at significantly different times. How the heck does one explain that?!? (except that it's bad, uncoordinated management).

Agreed,

And I understand that Lincoln Nebraska has added features that some other divisions don't have, such as individual time block for series recordings.

Jack

The problem is that, at the time, Tivo S3 was $700 or so, and their subscription costs were higher than TWC DVR rental fees (at least in my area). So, the question was whether to spend $700 + higher mothly fees or $0 + lower monthly fees; for a lot of people, that's a no brainer, no matter how big a diference in quality is.
By the time the price went down to $300, the SDV issue surfaced. How convenient.
TiVo must have known about the SDV issue for quite some time
and the relative merits of interim one-way vs two-way CableCARDs.

SDV two-way requirement was discussed many times in SARA/PASSPORT
threads prior to actual launch of SDV in Dec2005:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6315962&highlight=sdv#post6315962
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6316794&highlight=sdv#post6316794
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6677108&highlight=sdv#post6677108

I want an interactive discussion where the developers participate and acknowledge the problems and that they are working on them. Where they let us know what fixes/features are in a given version.I have to suspect that there's someone on the TW development team that is aware of this thread and actually reads it once in a while. Considering the hysterics of some of the discussions though, I doubt that any of them are anxious to participate in a dialog. I've always felt that the more we can keep our comments constructive and rational, the more TW is likely to listen. On the other hand, if we could get an explanation of some of the problems and plans for fixing them, there'd probably be a lot less grumbling. Hope is a remarkable salve.

Ah, wasn't aware you already had SDV. How is that working?

SDV deployment went off with a hitch. Just added 7 HD channels this week. I'm hoping we get a line up similar to Albany. They have over 40 HD channels currently and have been using SDV longer than we have.

Just about everything in our HD tier is now switched.

Originally Posted by BenJF3 View Post
Pedjar basically covered the Tivo situation and the only thing I'll add to that is I'd also lose the ability to view all my "On-Demand" channels. It should be noted that our market is already using SDV. As far as paying a third party vendor, I figure that if you are going to, you might as well go with the tried and true with brand recognition. That said, IF and this is a big IF, Tivo releases a set top that can seamlessly integrate into our cable system then I will go for it.

Ah, wasn't aware you already had SDV. How is that working?Actually TW has implemented SDV in many (if not most) of their SARA based systems. And it works fine too. You can't tell that a channel is SDV unless you go to the diagnostic pages.

Same as the external drive. If they had any sense, they'd make sure it worked AND made certified, supported drives available for purchase/rent. Apparently not, though the external drive capability has existed for more than THREE years on SARA systems. The original plan was to fully support these and make certified lists available, but apparently the support issues just made it not a good deal for TW (or ANY US cable company for that matter).

TW has not seemed to be in any rush to push Navigator on SARA systems. Some of that may be that SARA already has most of the features (SDV,etc.) that TW needed from Passport. Further as SARA comes from the equipment manufacturer, it's costs are likely much less than Passport (even before they talk about making the changes to Passport that TW "needed").

[QUOTE=robotron2084;13392172]Yeah, I knew that, but hardly any TWC areas have SDV and I've seen no timetable for getting it.

Robo: I think more areas have SDV than you think. Here in Hawaii, TW Oceanic implemented it in mid October 2007 and it works great. I understand all our new HD channels are on SDV.

We are still on SARA 1.90.5.110 here. We have had "Start Over" for over a year plus digital phone notifications. No rush to get Navigator here - Sara works great. If I need to search for a show, I just use my PC and visit www.zap2it.com & search easier & better than any DVR could ever do.

Here's a problem that started today and a tip that worked at least once so far...

The background is that because of the "box gets "stuck" in 480i (or is it p?) mode" lately with an HDMI connection, I changed the Output Resolution to 720p and 1080i only hoping that would help. However, this apparently can lead to the screen going blank and nothing working. This morning the TV showed nothing at all and I had to reboot. Just a while ago, it happened again and the TV was saying "Unsupported video format" (or something to that affect). It seems the box goes into it's 480 mode, but since it's not one of the set Output Resolutions, it gets confused (just guessing here). At this point nothing works. I can't change the channel, the Guide and List buttons do nothing, etc.

So here's the "tip". Rather than reboot the box this time, I pulled the HDMI cable from the TV and plugged it right back in. Everything came back as expected (though I can't remember now if I also powered the box off/on now).

TiVo must have known about the SDV issue for quite some time
and the relative merits of interim one-way vs two-way CableCARDs.

SDV two-way requirement was discussed many times in SARA/PASSPORT
threads prior to actual launch of SDV in Dec2005:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6315962&highlight=sdv#post6315962
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6316794&highlight=sdv#post6316794
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6677108&highlight=sdv#post6677108

OK, I stand corrected, it was a (potential) issue from the get-go. I'm surprised it took them so long to force cable companies to come up (at least in theory) with a 3rd party solution, as it is in clear violation of the spirit (if not the letter) of the FCC mandate for separated security.

Here's a problem that started today and a tip that worked at least once so far...

The background is that because of the "box gets "stuck" in 480i (or is it p?) mode" lately with an HDMI connection, I changed the Output Resolution to 720p and 1080i only hoping that would help. However, this apparently can lead to the screen going blank and nothing working. This morning the TV showed nothing at all and I had to reboot. Just a while ago, it happened again and the TV was saying "Unsupported video format" (or something to that affect). It seems the box goes into it's 480 mode, but since it's not one of the set Output Resolutions, it gets confused (just guessing here). At this point nothing works. I can't change the channel, the Guide and List buttons do nothing, etc.

So here's the "tip". Rather than reboot the box this time, I pulled the HDMI cable from the TV and plugged it right back in. Everything came back as expected (though I can't remember now if I also powered the box off/on now).

I had blank screen thing a couple of times when tuning to any channel, but it would still display guide and lists, as well as any per-recorded program. Reboot fixed it. Happened again when I turned the box on while both tuners were recording; I did not want to interrupt the recording with a reboot, so I decided to just watch a prerecorded show. Once one of the tuners stopped recording, the thing started working again without a reboot. Strange. Of course, none of that ever happened in the older version.

Yeah, I knew that, but hardly any TWC areas have SDV and I've seen no timetable for getting it. So I'm not sure why it would be an issue for those "suffering" with Navigator for nearly two years now. Besides, surely TWC will screw up SDV so badly that it will be another reason for folks to moan and groan and threaten to leave as soon as there is some other option. Of course there will be some reason that other option just isn't viable and they'll just stay around moaning and groaning some more. Damn evil TWC. ;)

We on Sara 1.89.17.1 in Greensboro have had SDV for close to a year and it works great.We have close to 20 channels on it both hd and digital and have had no problems.We also have STARTOVER and caller id on tv.I understand we are to receive LOOKBACK soon also.SARA has a lot of advantages over Passport and Navigator.It;s just some people with sara gripe about the search engine and GUI and do no notice a lot of it's advantages.

We on Sara 1.89.17.1 in Greensboro have had SDV for close to a year and it works great.We have close to 20 channels on it both hd and digital and have had no problems.We also have STARTOVER and caller id on tv.I understand we are to receive LOOKBACK soon also.SARA has a lot of advantages over Passport and Navigator.It;s just some people with sara gripe about the search engine and GUI and do no notice a lot of it's advantages.

Hey, I'm completely happy with SARA as far as the stability and reliability goes. I only mentioned the GUI, search and customizability as ways to improve an already good thing. In my case, I'd much rather see TWC devote more time to SDV and getting us a plethora of HD instead of deploying Navigator and screwing up a working system. How is programming going in the Navigatored markets? Are you getting new channel additions and HD or is TWC so bogged down trying to get Navigator straight that the overall product is suffering? I'm wondering about that.

OK, I stand corrected, it was a (potential) issue from the get-go. I'm surprised it took them so long to force cable companies to come up (at least in theory) with a 3rd party solution, as it is in clear violation of the spirit (if not the letter) of the FCC mandate for separated security.

Huh???? It's still non-integrated security.
The Tuning Resolver works with CableCARD equipped TiVo's.

BTW, SDV issue also affects CableCARD equipped DCR HDTVs (579 models).

But only about 271,000 CableCARDs are installed in HDTVs & TiVo's nationwide.
A mere drop in the bucket.....hardly worth worrying about....
"Let them eat cake"...errr...use a cable box...

Wonder how many of these CableCARDs are actually used in TiVo S3/HD DVRs....
many are probably used only for OTA and/or Standard Cable/QAM. [10-30K units?]

Which FCC "ruling"???
In Dec2002 "Plug-N-Play", CEA-SCTE agreed to first develop Unidirectional
(CableCARD), to be followed with Bidirectional (MCARD)....(DCAS came later).
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-3A2.pdf
Summary in 2005 "Second Report & Order re Comm. Avail. of Nav. Devices":
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-76A1.pdf

All the FCC did was to endorse the agreement...and all they REALLY
care about is viewability of OTA NETWORK channels carried on cable...

FCC never issued ANY ruling wrt whether ALL cable channels must remain
viewable via Unidirectional CableCARD "POD"....quite the contrary....
they recognized that some interactive cable features would NOT be available....
which we now know includes not only EPG & VOD, but also SDV, Caller ID, IPTV....

Likewise, FCC has never issued any requirement to carry the "Extended" Tier
as analog channels. The cable companies are free to put them onto digital,
after the usual 30 days notice buried in the newspaper....if they can stand the whining....

The FCC has to follow the LAW (and try not to interfer unnecessarily with industry),
rather do what the Commissioner "wants" to do (e.g. A La Carte & cable channel censorship)
or what either industry, broadcasters, cable companies or viewers "want" the FCC to do...

So if you don't like it...talk to your Congressperson....preferably over lunch....

Huh???? It's still non-integrated security.
The Tuning Resolver works with CableCARD equipped TiVo's.I think that he was saying that SDV is a violation of the spirit of the FCC's rulings, which it arguably is, though it had nothing to do with the ruling on separable security, since SDV works fine with boxes using CableCARDs for conditional access. Separable security got rolled into a larger issue of "plug-and-play DTV over cable", and SDV violates the spirit of plug-and-plug, which is the larger set of specs that regulations require that they use for digital cable, including MPEG-2 Transport Streams on 64- and/or 256-QAM carriers with PSIP loops in streams carrying over-the-air DTV rebroadcasts.

The cable providers have little choice in using SDV; they need bandwidth with which to compete with DirecTV's "up to 150 HD channel" offering. If they try to reclaim the analog bandwidth (typically 450 MHz out of 750 total for most systems), that would do it, but it would render useless many 10s of millions of legacy analog televisions in current use by their subscribers.

Hey, I'm completely happy with SARA as far as the stability and reliability goes. I only mentioned the GUI, search and customizability as ways to improve an already good thing. In my case, I'd much rather see TWC devote more time to SDV and getting us a plethora of HD instead of deploying Navigator and screwing up a working system. How is programming going in the Navigatored markets? Are you getting new channel additions and HD or is TWC so bogged down trying to get Navigator straight that the overall product is suffering? I'm wondering about that.

I agree.SARA is a very useful IPG that only needs a little tweeking.Rock solid stable.

I agree.SARA is a very useful IPG that only needs a little tweeking.Rock solid stable.Let's please, please stick to Navigator. Comments like these are gonna make me lose it :rolleyes:. As I stated earlier, when I was a Cox customer, had I had no choice but to continue using SARA, I would have stopped time-shifting HD. It does not satisfy my definition of IPG and barely qualifies as a DVR.

Let's please, please stick to Navigator.Then STICK TO NAVIGATOR! Your comments: Comments like these are gonna make me lose it :rolleyes:. As I stated earlier, when I was a Cox customer, had I had no choice but to continue using SARA, I would have stopped time-shifting HD. It does not satisfy my definition of IPG and barely qualifies as a DVR.Are not about Navigator either.

PS: I'll bet that today most folks suffering from Navigator would love something as stable as SARA.

Let's please, please stick to Navigator. Comments like these are gonna make me lose it :rolleyes:. As I stated earlier, when I was a Cox customer, had I had no choice but to continue using SARA, I would have stopped time-shifting HD. It does not satisfy my definition of IPG and barely qualifies as a DVR.

Sorry, but SARA is relevant in the discussion of Navigator. I don't know what version you had, but the current one offers a reliable DVR solution and is open to valid comparison between Navigator. I don't get what your beef with the software is. You don't like it because it's ugly? Doesn't have a viable search? These are two of my gripes about it, but when compared to the constant barrage of Navigator complaints, I'll gladly take those SARA issues knowing that the DVR works as it should. So far, SARA has progressed nicely toward stability whereas Navigator has developed new problems with every revision. Again, I'll reiterate that there is definitely much room for improvement with SARA, but it's all bells and whistles. Navigator's issues are all related to function. It would be like owning a Porsche that doesn't run. Sure I can sit in it and look pretty in my driveway or I can have the trusty ol' clunker and go somewhere to do something. In closing, while this is a Navigator specific thread it will inevitably invoke comments about the software it is replacing over the course of discussion, if for no other reason than comparison.

Then STICK TO NAVIGATOR! Your comments: Are not about Navigator either.

PS: I'll bet that today most folks suffering from Navigator would love something as stable as SARA.Sorry--I'm not entirely rational when it comes to the topic of SARA. Anytime somebody complements it, I'm almost certain to pipe in with a balancing insult; can't help myself.

And I feel fairly certain that I'd rather use the brain-dead version of Navigator that they first distributed in Lincoln 18 months ago than any perfectly bug-free release of SARA. What angers me about SARA is its piss-poor design and total lack professional presentation values--not its stability.

I'm happy for those who like it, but serving it up to me and charging $17 a month to use it was a deadly insult. It still burns me today, over a year after the experience.

I'm happy for those who like it, but serving it up to me and charging $17 a month to use it was a deadly insult. It still burns me today, over a year after the experience.

$17 a month! :eek: That's ridiculous!

I think your ire should be directed at the local provider/division. I only pay $8 and again would question what version you had.

$17 a month! :eek: That's ridiculous!

I think your ire should be directed at the local provider/division. I only pay $8 and again would question what version you had.I thought that it was $7/month for the box and $10/month for "DVR service"; looking at their website, it's currently $9.95 for "DVR Service" and $5.25 for box lease, so it's $15.20/month--not appreciably better. (I think that $6.95+$9.95 was what TWC was charging for box-lease+"DVR Service" locally, but at least they were using Passport Echo; with the change to Navigator, we're getting a bit ripped off).

I have no idea what version of it I was running--it's been over a year. Again, my problem was not with its bugs, but with what it was designed to do and the fashion in which it was designed to do it. Its design was functionality deficient with horribly awkward work-flow--no self-respecting Human Factors Engineer was ever inolved with it. Nor were any professional artists involved--all of the graphics were obviously concocted by programmers, featuring crappy, hand-made font bitmaps and line-art; that alone infuriates me. I'm not worth the time and effort to dress up the product that you're asking me to pay for? Tons of cash were spent giving professional gloss to the competing products, and I'm being asked to pay the same thing for this rude-looking POS.

I forgive it its shortcomings on one level because I suspect that the group who wrote it never intended for end-users to ever see or use it. I think that it's clearly what in engineering we call a "reference implementation"-- you make a piece of hardware and some middleware for driving its functions and a pile of applications software to be used by your customers as a set of practical examples of how to invoke that middleware and low-level device drivers to put the hardware through its paces. Reference implementations are never pretty, because they are not intended to be distributed to end-user customers. I think that some cable provider executive was shown SARA at an internal hardware demo and decided that it seemed good enough to him.

Why did my cable company have so little respect for me that they gave me software that was not apparently ever intended for commercial use? This is what I felt to be a deadly insult, which pisses me off to this day.

Sorry for the tirade, but you asked :D. Let's put a lid on this rathole and try to get back to Navigator.

After watching a previously recorded program, now I'm getting an on-screen error message when switching back to live TV (HDNet channel):
HDNet MOVIES is currently unavailable
Please try again later

I can hit the yellow A button to "try again" (but to no avail--same message re-appears)

Other channels, like 255 for WRAL-HD in my case, result in a blank/black screen with no such message (not that a blank screen is any better :() A few SD channels I tried had the same symptom.

Turning the power on/off had no effect.

Disconnecting the power to force a reboot has me stuck on the dreaded Ait.

Disconnecting the power to force a reboot has me stuck on the dreaded Ait.

Disconnecting the power one more time allowed the box to reboot and "fix" the problem.

Let's please, please stick to Navigator. Comments like these are gonna make me lose it :rolleyes:. As I stated earlier, when I was a Cox customer, had I had no choice but to continue using SARA, I would have stopped time-shifting HD. It does not satisfy my definition of IPG and barely qualifies as a DVR.

If I hated something as bad as you hate SARA I would dump it.Go to Direct TV or buy a vcr.I have SARA and PASSPORT both.Each has plus and minus issues.In the past I have had TIVO.All have good and bad points.All we want from NAVIGATOR is a stable platform.You might be praiseing SARA after you get NAVIGATOR.

If I hated something as bad as you hate SARA I would dump it.Go to Direct TV or buy a vcr.I have SARA and PASSPORT both.Each has plus and minus issues.In the past I have had TIVO.All have good and bad points.All we want from NAVIGATOR is a stable platform.You might be praiseing SARA after you get NAVIGATOR.I did dump it. I used it for a few weeks until it was about to drive me insane, then cheerfully plopped $900 down on a TiVo Series3 w/3 years pre-paid service. Before I moved into that Cox neighborhood I would never have considered paying that; I was fairly satisfied with Passport Echo, unhappy only with its failure to properly support an expansion drive. If TiVo had not been there as an alternative, I would have stopped recording HDTV and contented myself with whatever I could catch live.

Cox has made a deal with Gemstar/TV Guide to provide their standard IPG (so they've apparently decided to stop disrespecting their customers with a below-professional-quality IPG); Gemstar recently assimilated Aptiv Digital and ownership of Passport Echo. So, now that I've moved back into a TWC area, it looks like I'll have to move again, into Cox territory, if I want Passport Echo :rolleyes:.

Navigator's problems are with bugs--TWC will either shake those out or lose a ton of business. They seem to be girding themselves for the effort now, so hopefully it works out. I still have my TiVo--my housemate has an Explorer 4250HDC in his room that's running Navigator and there's an 8300HD in the family room (still running Passport Echo) which is the only box where I'll have to deal with it, once they "upgrade" it. Since I don't often watch TV there, it won't effect me too badly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQI6nRIvIk8

Hope none of you have it this bad. He's in Northeast Ohio.

Jim

^ HAHAHAAH, wow, they honestly think people are going to stick with them with that bullsh*t, UNBELIEVABLE. The second Crapigator hits my box, I'm jumping to Dish.

My HD 3250 box stopped working on 3/13/2008 after TWC ran a major update on their software/firmware. Here's what I FINALLY got from them:

At this present time, Time Warner Cable does not provide support for the USB, SATA, Firewire, HDMI, or DVI ports. Some of the ports on the digital boxes are active and can be used. Time Warner Cable can not help with the setup or installation of the following ports USB, SATA, Firewire, HDMI, or DVI ports; currently Time Warner Cable only support the setup and installation of composite, component, S-Video, and coax cable. If you have any questions feel free to contact your local Time Warner Office between hours of 8am to 8pm Monday through Saturday for Sales and Billing and Technical Support is open 24 hours a day / 7 days a week.

Thank you for contacting Time Warner Cable.

No HDMI?
No DVI?

My set up was working perfect for YEARS. DVI to my LCD and digital audio to my home theater. Suddenly TWC will not support it? Only component cables? I'm sure they will still charge top dollar for HD but only allow us to use component cables? I really don't want to 'dumb down' my picture.

~Johnny U

My HD 3250 box stopped working on 3/13/2008 after TWC ran a major update on their software/firmware. Here's what I FINALLY got from them:

At this present time, Time Warner Cable does not provide support for the USB, SATA, Firewire, HDMI, or DVI ports. Some of the ports on the digital boxes are active and can be used. Time Warner Cable can not help with the setup or installation of the following ports USB, SATA, Firewire, HDMI, or DVI ports; currently Time Warner Cable only support the setup and installation of composite, component, S-Video, and coax cable. If you have any questions feel free to contact your local Time Warner Office between hours of 8am to 8pm Monday through Saturday for Sales and Billing and Technical Support is open 24 hours a day / 7 days a week.

Thank you for contacting Time Warner Cable.

No HDMI?
No DVI?

My set up was working perfect for YEARS. DVI to my LCD and digital audio to my home theater. Suddenly TWC will not support it? Only component cables? I'm sure they will still charge top dollar for HD but only allow us to use component cables? I really don't want to 'dumb down' my picture.I guess I sorta understand their position. When you start getting into things like HDMI, SATA, USB, etc., there's a lot of things that can go wrong over which TW has no control. Many times when there is a problem with one of these connections, it's not caused by TW equipment, and to support these connections puts them in a very difficult situation of having to try to fix a problem that is not of their making.

They have instead chosen to "tolerate" the use of these ports by those who know what they're doing and avoid what could be a crippling support responsibility. They have enough trouble training their tech people to handle the simple connections.

Your problem is similar to that experienced by those of us who were using the SATA connection for external storage: one day it worked, then a new release disabled it. I just wish the developers would respect that there are real advantages to having these connections and at least make an attempt to maintain their functionality.

I just wish the developers would respect that there are real advantages to having these connections and at least make an attempt to maintain their functionality.

Yup, gotta love it when they don't actually support HDMI yet they put out a new release that specifically makes Output Resolution settable for HDMI now when it wasn't before. I guess it's possible they simply dropped any specific checks to ensure a component cable connection and now just let you go nuts with it at your own risk. I'm sure the developers know what's useful and what isn't but it's not them making the decisions. I have no doubt management is driving the feature set and problems with an unsupported connection aren't going to be a priority or a "stop ship" issue.

But if they're going to act like this, I wish they'd just go ahead and weld a strip of metal over the unsupported connections and spare everyone the dream that it might actually work.

We got Navigator here in Desert Cities TW last night. So far the only issue is it did not bring over my output resolution settings, but once I reset to 1080i only as before everything looks fine. All my existing recordings and scheduled recordings came over. Speed seems okay.

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9674/img0326fa1.jpg

Here is a capture of the diagnostics screen (channel 888) from my SA8800HD. Navigator version 2.4.1-92.

Great, sounds like I'll have to go component cables and hold them ransom for free services.

It seems the whole world is pushing HDMI and for TWC to not support it is insane.
I have buddies that install HIGH END home theater systems and say DVI is the way to go. Why wouldn't TWC want to use the best stuff? Ridiculous.

Thanks for the replies....time to go cable shopping

JohnnyU
I'm amazed you lasted this long. I crossed this bridge with them 3-4 years ago when I switched to a PVR...my DVI 3250 worked great then I got the PVR box and all the HDMI problems that came with.

Welcome to the I hate TWC/HDMI crowd.

Call up and tell them your TV doesn't have component input, you'll have to cancel and go with Direct TV. See if they'll give you a free PVR (Not that the PVR will fix it...but its more updated so I bet it will).

I call up every 3 months or so and complain, threaten to switch, I haven't paid for PVR in almost 18 months..also they'll throw in free movie channels, free turbo internet...heck, they gave me 3 months free phone service when I was having problems with the phone.

If TWC does anything well, its cave to customers over a dollar. I'd much prefer they just fix their crap but it is what it is.

Actually, do you mean DVR?

Yes, I too have heard if you call and complain, you can get discounts on a lot of stuff (or free.) Sometimes it doesn't work right away, so it is best to often contact a higher-up if you are not satisfied with the CSR who first answers the phone.

Jack

Got Navigator today 3/18 on my SA8300HD with eSATA External HDD (was on Passport). I'm in San Diego, CA 92123.

Got message "Migration failed with error code 13." which I believe is due to the eSATA drive, and it is currently stuck in a loop where it tries to migrate, fails and reboots, repeat.

Did anyone else with an SA3800HD w/ eSATA HDD have this problem?

Looks like I will need to power off the eSATA HDD to complete the migration.

They have instead chosen to "tolerate" the use of these ports by those who know what they're doing and avoid what could be a crippling support responsibility. They have enough trouble training their tech people to handle the simple connections.The problem with that attitude is that HDMI-or-DVI/HDCP is part of the plug-and-play DTV-over-cable solution that their parent corporations and the CE OEMs worked out; HDMI-or-DVI/HDCP is there because the cable companies' content providers would prefer that "high-value" HD content not go out in full high-definition form over any analog connection, where it's harder to protect it from unauthorized copying.

That plug-and-play agreement was codified into FCC regulations, and those regulations require that every high-def box that the cable providers purchased for lease since July 2005 have an HDMI-or-DVI/HDCP connection on it (I've had a long-standing argument with davehancock, who feels that since those regs don't place the word "functional" in that requirement that a purely decorative HDMI-or-DVI connector on STBs will satisfy the regulations :rolleyes:--that argument was mostly about the 1394/DTCP connections required by the same paragraph of the regs, which is a harder nut to crack). I think that anyone who pushes the issue through their local cable franchising authority and/or the FCC should be able get their cable provider to change that policy.

On the other hand, I can understand the cable providers' reticence about supporting HDMI; there are endless anecdotes online about HDMI interoperability problems. Their bottom line can easily take a hit from rolling trucks with techs to fix problems that cannot be fixed because of poor HDMI implementations on televisions or AVRs or switches in use by their subs. I count myself lucky, as I'm connecting 8 devices from 8 different OEMs with HDMI (Mitsubishi LCD panel, Onkyo AVR, TiVo S3, Playstation 3, Xbox 360, Toshiba HD DVD player and RCA DVD recorder, with a Belkin 4-into-1 HDMI switch), with all digital sound from the video sources flowing into my AVR over HDMI and it all works smoothly (knock wood :D), so I'm a fairly strong booster for the technology.

Northeast Ohio (Akron Area) got Navigatored last night. :mad: So far they have only done the older Pioneer boxes. My SA8300HD still is running Passport Echo.

The Mystro on that box appears to be a different version than the OCAP boxes. This must be the MDN. I've yet to find a version number.

Northeast Ohio (Akron Area) got Navigatored last night. :mad: So far they have only done the older Pioneer boxes. My SA8300HD still is running Passport Echo.

The Mystro on that box appears to be a different version than the OCAP boxes. This must be the MDN. I've yet to find a version number.
My cable service also comes from Akron/Canton although I have had Navigator since before Christmas. Is it possible that rolling out the new software to so many boxes concurrently uses enough network bandwidth to wreck the TV viewing for everyone else? The reason I ask is because the last couple nights, right around midnight, all my TV channels go nuts with digital tiling, etc, to the point where they are unwatchable. Some time in the morning (6 or 7ish) they return to working OK.

Thanks,
-Marty

My cable service also comes from Akron/Canton although I have had Navigator since before Christmas. Is it possible that rolling out the new software to so many boxes concurrently uses enough network bandwidth to wreck the TV viewing for everyone else? The reason I ask is because the last couple nights, right around midnight, all my TV channels go nuts with digital tiling, etc, to the point where they are unwatchable. Some time in the morning (6 or 7ish) they return to working OK.

Thanks,
-Marty

Do you have a HDC box(The "C" meaning it has a cable card in it) or an older box(i.e.8300HD, 3250HD)? The boxes use slightly different software b/c OCAP.

I've noticed that too. Many of the channels, especially digital ones over 100 have not worked at all at night. They were doing something to the channels over 100. I have the grey sidebars and I noticed a black stripe on the left of the screen btw the picture and the sidebar, similar to channels under 100.

I'll have to get my notes on Navigator up here from the cleveland forum. So far it sucks!! The delays are horrible!

I'm now taking the Navigator box for a test drive and it really sucks so far. The UI moves so slow. A keyboard search was added but it is useless b/c once you type in a show name, you have to wait for the data to load and the show in the quarter screen video window blacks out. No more program searching while I'm watching a show .

I can't wait to see how the DVR is going to work. I noticed that shows are incorrectly labeled as "New". EVERY "Rob & Big" episode "Vegas" on MTV-250 is labeled as "New" between tonight and 3/23. On the Passport box, only the 10:30 first run eppy is labeled New. It will be interesting to watch this one play out, especially with series recordings for new episodes.

The Navigator guide has LESS information about each show. Most movies only have one actor listed and show descriptions are shorter. Also, helpful information like "Dolby Digital" "Letterbox" and "HDTV" are no longer present. Maybe b/c it is an SD box, but that info was there on Passport, even though it wasn't capable of tuning those channels.

Channel changing is a pain in the arse. There is now a longer delay btw punching in numbers and the channel changing. It's the same in the guide. Also, it acts up punching in numbers. The channel banner gets "confused" and has blinking question marks????

I'm now taking the Navigator box for a test drive and it really sucks so far. The UI moves so slow. A keyboard search was added but it is useless b/c once you type in a show name, you have to wait for the data to load and the show in the quarter screen video window blacks out. No more program searching while I'm watching a show .
...


That has always worked for me just fine (on SA8300HDC, with both Navigator 2.4.5_4 and 2.4.9_3). Maybe it's the version of the Navigator or, maybe, the amount of memory in the box - you mentioned it is an SD box. Of course, they had no business forcing Navigator on a machine that can not properly support it, but that's yet another benefit of having TWC as yur provider. Unfortunately, you can not say just Navigator is like this or like that, you need to say what box and what version of Navigator. They tend to behave quite differently.

That has always worked for me just fine (on SA8300HDC, with both Navigator 2.4.5_4 and 2.4.9_3). Maybe it's the version of the Navigator or, maybe, the amount of memory in the box - you mentioned it is an SD box. Of course, they had no business forcing Navigator on a machine that can not properly support it, but that's yet another benefit of having TWC as yur provider. Unfortunately, you can not say just Navigator is like this or like that, you need to say what box and what version of Navigator. They tend to behave quite differently.

It's the Pioneer BD-V1000. Really old box, probably 7 years old. As for a Navigator version, I don't know right now. I've pulled up the diagnostic screen(Hold SELECT until the Message light comes on, then press right arrow>). There's 26 pages of light colored text(white, yellow) and no dark background. I'll try to get a version up soon.

DVR=Digital Video Recorder
PVR=Personal Video Recorder

Interchangeable.

In essence yes, but I always find PVR a stupid term.

My old Sony VHS unit is a personal video recorder. My DVD recorder is a personal video recorder. Is there such a thing as a Family Video Recorder (FVR) or Public Video Recorder? That would probably cause some acronym havoc.

PVR should be stricken from the lexicon when referring to devices which store video purely as bits and bytes.

/Rant

Now back to the scheduled Navigator invasion.