This is old news that has been discussed in this thread and elsewhere. We know the primary reason for this rollout is SDV and we know money is a factor. They've poured so much time and money into this software and other parts of it, they have to recoup the costs by scrapping their existing license for Passport and trying to make this old product useful somewhere.
Not true about SDV requiring Navigator.

In Hawaii (Time Warner Oceanic) my 8300HDC has Sara 1.90.5.110 & we've had SDV since last October and it all works great. We almost immediately got all the TWC HD channels currently under contract - months before most other TWC systems in US. We currently have 30 Free HD channels (& 8 more coming soon), 5 premiums, plus about a dozen VOD channels. Also have "Start Over" on some SD channels (but don't watch SD anymore), & digital phone indicator - all using SARA. Was told by customer svc that there are no plans to adopt Navigator here - Hope that's true. Sara may not be pretty, but it works great and supports expander drive.

Yes, we currently have SDV deployed in our division using SARA. On my 8300HD it has been working well. We do not have Start Over and the biggest downside here has been the utter lack of information and slow rollout of HD channels. One market over has more than 50 while we have about 30 and pay the same. TWCNY is horrible at keeping subs informed. They won't tell you when channels will be rolled out and sometime you just get a surprise by browsing the guide and seeing a new HD channel. If they get on par with Albany's lineup here they will make a lot of people happy and keep some from jumping to DirecTV. As far as Navigator goes, we were told 1st quarter of this year (which has passed) but with no information coming forth it's hard to tell. They might just do the same thing they did with the HD channels and just sneak it in some night.

Originally Posted by VisionOn
This is old news that has been discussed in this thread and elsewhere. We know the primary reason for this rollout is SDV and we know money is a factor. They've poured so much time and money into this software and other parts of it, they have to recoup the costs by scrapping their existing license for Passport and trying to make this old product useful somewhere.Not true about SDV requiring Navigator.Correct.

But it should be noted that Passport now has versions that supports everything that TW wants (in addition to SDV, there is caller ID, OCAP/"tru2way", etc.). The issue apparently is that TW doesn't want to PAY Aptiv/TVGuide for these things and wants more control over the future development of this software. I suspect that SARA does not cost TW much (if anything) as it is provided by the supplier of the equipment.

Other good news,

My brother got his box replaced and Navigator is working better for him because of it. The whole family likes having the Access Menu's (News and Weather Now, and Sports Now) all in one place. I did mention that the keyboard needs Word Search and Wraparound capability. Also the ability to gray out letters un-related to program searches. On the keyboard, when you narrow down your category search and bring up the keyboard, the search should BEGIN with the show that you have narrowed down by category. Having to retype the data, after narrowing a Find Shows search down is stupid. Everyone seems to agree on this.

We need a "View This Channel Now" returned as an option on selecting future IPG programs as well.

I sent this info to my TWC division and it is going to their tech development department. Navigator is doing much better than I had expected.

Jack

My wife and I just returned from a small vacation home we have in Emerald Isle NC.We found we had been Navigated on our pioneer box (non dvr).After playing with it for 4 days I was a bit suprised that I did not hate it.

Most of the major problems with Navigator have been DVR related. I'm not surprised to find it acceptable on a non-DVR box.

My 8300HD box just updated today with the new software, and it seems terrible. Also none of my DVR controls are working now, I can't hit record or bring up my recorded shows or anything, is this normal? Any idea why it might not be working anyone?

Edit: I actually have 8300HD DVR boxes in 2 rooms and the DVR functionality doesn't seem to show up on either one.

Does anyone else have their box hooked up to HDMI and experience sometimes, the channel staying in a small square in the corner after exiting the guide? This usually is only when dealing w/HD channels. It is beyond irritating and I have to restart the stupid box. This never occurred in the Pioneer software.

I just discovered a Navigator feature that I wish I'd known about sooner. When you set up your Record Options and cycle far enough through the Adjust Start/End Time, it allows you to start a recording later or end it earlier. I had always thought a recording could only be extended, not shortened. This could be helpful to avoid schedule conflicts when the networks screw around and schedule programs to start/end 1 minute later than the others. The last couple of minutes are usually ads and previews anyway.

I recently had to get a new box and TWC gave me the SA 8240 HDC DVR box with Navigator on it. No major issues as of yet but the jump forward when rewinding is quite a bit annoying, and not being able to prioritize recordings is a huge miss for me. I do however like the access menu with its "what's playing now?" features, thats nice for the kids. Also, I like the ability to save only a certain number of a given show (also nice for the kids, as they don't care what episode they watch of certain shows).

Has anybody tried an eSata drive with 2.4.9_3 ODN running on the 8240? I haven't tried to plug mine in yet as I'm worried about the sleep mode bug.

Thanks all for this thread, it rocks.

Does anyone else have their box hooked up to HDMI and experience sometimes, the channel staying in a small square in the corner after exiting the guide? This usually is only when dealing w/HD channels. It is beyond irritating and I have to restart the stupid box. This never occurred in the Pioneer software.
I do not use HDMI but lots of people have posted various HDMI problems over the months I have been following this discussion. It seems many of them revert to component video to escape these problems.

-Marty

My 8300HD box just updated today with the new software, and it seems terrible. Also none of my DVR controls are working now, I can't hit record or bring up my recorded shows or anything, is this normal? Any idea why it might not be working anyone?

Edit: I actually have 8300HD DVR boxes in 2 rooms and the DVR functionality doesn't seem to show up on either one.

What is your location? (Please add to signature or profile).

Try hard-reboots (unplug for 30-seconds) to see if that restores DVR functions.

Does anyone else have their box hooked up to HDMI and experience sometimes, the channel staying in a small square in the corner after exiting the guide? This usually is only when dealing w/HD channels. It is beyond irritating and I have to restart the stupid box. This never occurred in the Pioneer software.

No need for restart. In my experience, if I turn PIP on and then switch it off, the video is no longer in the upper right corner.

What is your location? (Please add to signature or profile).

Try hard-reboots (unplug for 30-seconds) to see if that restores DVR functions.

I am northeast Ohio, Akron/Canton area. I'll try rebooting it when I get home, thanks, at work right now.

Does anyone else have their box hooked up to HDMI and experience sometimes, the channel staying in a small square in the corner after exiting the guide? This usually is only when dealing w/HD channels. It is beyond irritating and I have to restart the stupid box. This never occurred in the Pioneer software.

Seems to be a common issue on the 8300 HDC box with Navigator ... one temporary workaround is to press the Picture-in-Picture button TWICE. Only problem is, if you then change channels, the picture goes back to the small version in the upper right-hand corner of the screen, and you have to press the PIP button twice another time to get your full picture back.

Seems like every time I call up TW and complain about a problem, I get a different answer. I've had three different TW folks explain the problem of the box not recording the currently-watch channel ... caused by (1) "screensaver" kicking in, (2) updates to the program guide not updating properly, and (3) Output Resolution not set to only output 1080i for my 1080p TV.

Personally, I don't have much faith in relying on anything that anyone from TW tells me about their product. I've been calling them with complaints for the last 3 months or so ... and so far, they've not been able to FIX (or even accurately explain) the problem. They're pleasant and sympathetic, just totally ignorant!

Well still no luck, I unplugged the receivers for a few minutes and plugged them back in and still no DVR functionality. Maybe I'll give TWC a call tomorrow and see what's up.

Well still no luck, I unplugged the receivers for a few minutes and plugged them back in and still no DVR functionality. Maybe I'll give TWC a call tomorrow and see what's up.
Did it got through the whole boot sequence, Ait or OCAP, L14, L13... countdown, etc?

What software versions are you showing (hold Select on the remote until the email light flashes on the set-top box, then hit down arrow)? I'm in the same neck of the woods as you (over by Youngstown but still getting cable from Akron/Canton).

That's really weird. We're used to seeing every kind of complaint, error and malfunction with the DVR, but the DVR not working at all... When you hit the DVR buttons on the remote are they just totally ignored as if you hit no buttons at all?

It almost seems like it doesn't realize that you are authorized to the DVR functionality, though I am not sure that's the way it works. When I first got my DVR, it was because they had given me a DVR box by mistake when swapping out my malfunctioning non-DVR box. When I hooked it up, I had DVR functionality even though I was not subscribed to it. So at least in those days, it didn't care if you were "authorized" as long as the DVR hardware was present. That was an 8300HD running Passport.

-Marty

Not true about SDV requiring Navigator.



Yes it is.

If you have a Passport system.

Navigator is the only option TWC is using to replace Passport boxes. That's why they are trying to cull the Passport systems with the Navigator rollout first. SARA has long been capable of SDV. Passport users have been left behind without SDV, caller-ID on TV and a host of other features that SARA can handle because of TWCs refusal to pay Aptiv for the software.

Replacing all the Passport boxes with Navigator is the only option TWC has/wants to have a fully SDV capable system.

Yes it is.

If you have a Passport system.

Navigator is the only option TWC is using to replace Passport boxes. That's why they are trying to cull the Passport systems with the Navigator rollout first. SARA has long been capable of SDV. Passport users have been left behind without SDV, caller-ID on TV and a host of other features that SARA can handle because of TWCs refusal to pay Aptiv for the software.

Replacing all the Passport boxes with Navigator is the only option TWC has/wants to have a fully SDV capable system.You contradict yourself by saying essentially, "Navigator is the only option, since TWC doesn't choose the other option". The other option, of course, was getting Aptiv to add SDV support to Passport for them, which was trivial.

Since many systems are going to SDV (probably all of them eventually), I'm sure that Gemstar/TV Guide has already added SDV support--as I said, it's not a very big effort, since most of it would be in middleware that not part of the IPG. Long before Gemstar bought them they added everything else new in Navigator (caller-ID, etc) plus a lot more. Passport Echo 2.7 had all of that and was announced at the end of 2005. Very few TWC systems choose to deploy it, but it was always an option. The version of Passport that they're transitioning from in most systems (2.6.xxx) is over 2.5 years old; no doubt Aptiv churned out a couple of major releases and dozens of point releases in that time.

Did it got through the whole boot sequence, Ait or OCAP, L14, L13... countdown, etc?

What software versions are you showing (hold Select on the remote until the email light flashes on the set-top box, then hit down arrow)? I'm in the same neck of the woods as you (over by Youngstown but still getting cable from Akron/Canton).

That's really weird. We're used to seeing every kind of complaint, error and malfunction with the DVR, but the DVR not working at all... When you hit the DVR buttons on the remote are they just totally ignored as if you hit no buttons at all?

It almost seems like it doesn't realize that you are authorized to the DVR functionality, though I am not sure that's the way it works. When I first got my DVR, it was because they had given me a DVR box by mistake when swapping out my malfunctioning non-DVR box. When I hooked it up, I had DVR functionality even though I was not subscribed to it. So at least in those days, it didn't care if you were "authorized" as long as the DVR hardware was present. That was an 8300HD running Passport.

-Marty

Not sure exactly what all it did when booting up, I wasn't paying too much attention since it took a few minutes. I'll check the version when I get home today, I also shot them an e-mail to see if they say anything before I call and stay on hold awhile. But yeah when I hit the DVR buttons it doesn't do anything at all, as if it has no DVR functionality. That's what I was thinking though, it's almost like they screwed up and don't know that I have DVR service and it's shut off for some reason.

My 8300HD was "upgraded" about 2 weeks ago. So far my major gripe:

Output Resolution... Every time I set it up so that it only outputs 1080i (to get rid of the annoying delay in picking up a channel as my TV determines what signal it is), it loses the setting after being powered down! How is this not saved permanently!? Amazing how they have messed such simple things up.

People have been having issues with conflicts and not being able to record programs. I think I may have found the biggest source of problems for conflicts.

Us. Ourselves. We've been outsmarting ourselves. Here's a good example.

I record "Dancing With The Stars" on Mondays and Tuesdays. I've also been recording "Law&Order:SVU" on Tuesdays. I have both in series recordings and both to record at any time.

On DWTS, I have the option set to pad the end of the recording by 5 minutes. I have recently (re-)added "Women's Murder Club". By default, Navigator gives WMC the top priority as the most recent series recording.

I got a conflict with L&O:SVU as it won't record. WMC now follows DWTS:The Results on Tuesday nights.

This past Tuesday, DWTS ran from 9:00 to 10:02 (according to program guide), WMC ran from 10:02 to 11:00. L&O:SVU runs from 10:00 to 11:00. With my padding, DWTS would run from 9:00 to 10:07.

Navigator saw the overlap on ABC on Tuesday, and unlike Passport, which would have put up a conflict box, decided that it would (here's the kicker) SWITCH WMC TO THE OTHER TUNER. Naturally, since WMC had a higher priority, and now both tuners would be engaged, it marked L&O:SVU as a conflict and would not record it.

I suddenly realized this and modified the DWTS recording to not end at 10:07, but back at 10:02. Since DWTS and WMC were back to back, any overlap from DWTS would be at the beginning of the WMC recording, and I could live with that.

Once I made this fix, BINGO!, L&O:SVU became eligible for recording since Navigator recognized the other tuner was now free. L&O:SVU did record. So in the end, all three of the programs I wanted to record did so.

People, you're going to have to start reviewing your series recording scheduling and see if there is any padding on it that you've added. Check the upcoming program(s) you have scheduled, it might already be padded according to the program guide.

You might want to start thinking about removing or modifying that padding. That might solve your conflict issues.

Yes it is.

If you have a Passport system.

Navigator is the only option TWC is using to replace Passport boxes. That's why they are trying to cull the Passport systems with the Navigator rollout first. SARA has long been capable of SDV. Passport users have been left behind without SDV, caller-ID on TV and a host of other features that SARA can handle because of TWCs refusal to pay Aptiv for the software.

Replacing all the Passport boxes with Navigator is the only option TWC has/wants to have a fully SDV capable system.

I had caller_Id for months on passport with no problem. It supported that feature just fine. Now with Mystro Navigator I still have it but everything else is so slow and aweful I'm trying to find a way out of Time Warner. Also my cable boxes all reboot randomly throughout the day. I have 6 of them and they are all old Pioneer or SA Explorer 2000's.

I got a reply email about my problem.

"We have reset your DVR and your service should now be operational. If you continue to experience a problem, please let us know as soon as possible so that we can dispatch a technician to your home."

All seems to work fine now, so I'm assuming the new software has some type of setting they send to it to enable or disable DVR functions, and somehow mine must have been disabled. Thanks anyway for the help.

I had caller_Id for months on passport with no problem. It supported that feature just fine. Now with Mystro Navigator I still have it but everything else is so slow and aweful I'm trying to find a way out of Time Warner. Also my cable boxes all reboot randomly throughout the day. I have 6 of them and they are all old Pioneer or SA Explorer 2000's.

My 8300HD with Passport has not had good luck with Caller ID. It only works 'sometimes' - usually only after going to channel 1500 and waiting 3 to 6 minutes for it to authorize. I've tried reboots; I've had CSR's send signals and even specifically add Caller ID as a service on the account, but it still won't stay active.

On-screen Caller ID is a nice feature, but I'd give it up in an heartbeat if it meant I could just keep Passport until after all the bugs are finally worked out of Navigator.

************

Separately, on my 8300HDC with Navigator, I found that it failed to record a single program for two weeks due to 'channel not found' errors. The last time I used that box on 4/11, I had found a couple missed shows in the recording log so I did a another full reboot (unplug). I hadn't touched it again until this past Sunday (finally dusted off the treadmill). It recorded nothing from 4/11 to 4/27, and there are an average of 4-5 shows a day in the series scheduler. All the scheduled shows appear in the recording log as failures. (After rebooting again on Sunday, it appears to be recording ok for now.)

I called TWC, and asked for another DVR service credit (it used to fail more often since I got it back in October, and I used to call every month, but it was doing better lately). The CSR refused to give another service credit. She said the software problems had been resolved and they no longer offered credits. She said she'd send a signal to reset the box to factory specs. I told her to get a tech out to my home so he can read the recording log for himself - and then give me the credit for service failure (it makes no sense to me that they'd rather spend $40-$50 on a service call than $6 on a simple service credit, but I've got a couple free hours this Saturday afternoon anyway...).

I also told her to make sure the tech brings me a new box - preferrably an 'old' non-C box. I've had enuf of the failures with the 8300HDC. It's a POS! Having heard from several posters saying the non-C boxes are performing better/faster and are more stable, I'm either getting one of those or just giving this one back and reverting to VCR use on that TV.

Also, I noticed that live shows still do not buffer while watching a pre-recorded program - nor does the alternate tuner buffer while watching the other tuner. Is that still a problem with both ODN and MDN versions, or just ODN?

I got a reply email about my problem.

"We have reset your DVR and your service should now be operational. If you continue to experience a problem, please let us know as soon as possible so that we can dispatch a technician to your home."

All seems to work fine now, so I'm assuming the new software has some type of setting they send to it to enable or disable DVR functions, and somehow mine must have been disabled. Thanks anyway for the help.

Good luck, Speedy! :)

People have been having issues with conflicts and not being able to record programs. I think I may have found the biggest source of problems for conflicts.

Us. Ourselves. We've been outsmarting ourselves. Here's a good example.

I record "Dancing With The Stars" on Mondays and Tuesdays. I've also been recording "Law&Order:SVU" on Tuesdays. I have both in series recordings and both to record at any time.

On DWTS, I have the option set to pad the end of the recording by 5 minutes. I have recently (re-)added "Women's Murder Club". By default, Navigator gives WMC the top priority as the most recent series recording.

I got a conflict with L&O:SVU as it won't record. WMC now follows DWTS:The Results on Tuesday nights.

This past Tuesday, DWTS ran from 9:00 to 10:02 (according to program guide), WMC ran from 10:02 to 11:00. L&O:SVU runs from 10:00 to 11:00. With my padding, DWTS would run from 9:00 to 10:07.

Navigator saw the overlap on ABC on Tuesday, and unlike Passport, which would have put up a conflict box, decided that it would (here's the kicker) SWITCH WMC TO THE OTHER TUNER. Naturally, since WMC had a higher priority, and now both tuners would be engaged, it marked L&O:SVU as a conflict and would not record it.

I suddenly realized this and modified the DWTS recording to not end at 10:07, but back at 10:02. Since DWTS and WMC were back to back, any overlap from DWTS would be at the beginning of the WMC recording, and I could live with that.

Once I made this fix, BINGO!, L&O:SVU became eligible for recording since Navigator recognized the other tuner was now free. L&O:SVU did record. So in the end, all three of the programs I wanted to record did so.

People, you're going to have to start reviewing your series recording scheduling and see if there is any padding on it that you've added. Check the upcoming program(s) you have scheduled, it might already be padded according to the program guide.

You might want to start thinking about removing or modifying that padding. That might solve your conflict issues.

Thanks!

Still a little confusing because I don't do series recordings. I have much better success with treating each show as an individual program.

Has anyone been able to figure out or asked what defines a "New" program according to Navigator's standards? The word "Live" in Passport, was more direct than "New" in Navigator. I have had the IPG show "New" shows even after they have replayed several times. Some "live shows" that I know are "new" are not shown as "New." For Navigator, how do any of you define a "new" show? Or how does it define a new show?

Jack

I received Navigator yesterday. I already had it on one of my 2 boxes. The 8300HD box that just got it is switching back and forth between the time and channel while the box is off. This is very annoying and never happened with the other box. Any ideas?

Has anyone been able to figure out or asked what defines a "New" program according to Navigator's standards?I don't know specifically what TV Guide's criteria is for calling a show "New", but if you look at the program guide, it tells you which shows are new. The word "New" is always the first word of the program description for a new show. I've found it to be pretty reliable, at least for network programming.

I received Navigator yesterday. I already had it on one of my 2 boxes. The 8300HD box that just got it is switching back and forth between the time and channel while the box is off. This is very annoying and never happened with the other box. Any ideas?

When changed over,

Navigator's default setting is to display the channel when it is being tuned. To have the clock in your display all the time, Press Settings than there should be something called Clock Display, or Clock Options, select that option and than use the arrow keys to highlight, "Show Time of Day Always." than press select. The clock now always appears in the LED window.

Jack

PS. If this doesn't work, do a cold reboot of the box. (Unplug for 30 seconds, plug back in and have the system reboot.) But check and if needed, change the clock setting first so that "Show Time of Day Always" is your clock setting.

I had caller_Id for months on passport with no problem. It supported that feature just fine. Now with Mystro Navigator I still have it but everything else is so slow and awful I'm trying to find a way out of Time Warner. Also my cable boxes all reboot randomly throughout the day. I have 6 of them and they are all old Pioneer or SA Explorer 2000's.
__________________
Clint

Clint,

It has been well documented that the Pioneer boxes are the slowest. They have the least amount of memory and do not work well with Navigator because of this. If you stay with TWC, you should get your box upgraded to a current SA model (At least a version 3000.) The SA boxes below 2000 are a little better than the Pioneers, but not much. Pioneer has been out of the digital cable box business for several years. These older model boxes seem to be the crux of a lot of Navigator's problems.

Jack

I would prefer that the channel shows while the box is on, and that the clock shows only when the box is off. On my other box, if I choose "Show Channel Always", that works. Not so on the box that was just Navigatored.

I would prefer that the channel shows while the box is on, and that the clock shows only when the box is off.That's the way mine works. I can't check my settings because I'm out of town, but I've gone through 3 boxes and I've been able to easily set it up this way on all three.

... issues with conflicts ... biggest source ... Ourselves ... pad the end of the recording by 5 minutes ... added "Women's Murder Club". By default, Navigator gives WMC the top priority as the most recent series recording ... conflict with L&O:SVU ... won't record. ... DWTS ran from 9:00 to 10:02 ... WMC ran from 10:02 to 11:00. L&O:SVU runs from 10:00 to 11:00. With my padding, DWTS would run from 9:00 to 10:07. Navigator ... decided [to] SWITCH WMC TO THE OTHER TUNER. ... marked L&O:SVU as a conflict and would not record it. ... modified the DWTS recording to ... end at ... 10:02. ... L&O:SVU became eligible for recording ... did record.While this is a valid point, my preference would be back to PASSPORT (I moved at 1.8.xxx, never saw 2.x), where L&O:SVU would have began at 10:08 PM. Somehow, the SARA and NAVIGATOR seem to check based upon events, where PASSPORT seemed to perform a check at each minute.

I have adapted to SARA somewhat, so NAVIGATOR will just be a new thing same as the old thing. Still miss the ability to explicitly define priority, dual buffer without PIP up, and the ability to change guide location with the numbers without changing the viewing channel...

v/r,
C-F

I don't know specifically what TV Guide's criteria is for calling a show "New", but if you look at the program guide, it tells you which shows are new. The word "New" is always the first word of the program description for a new show. I've found it to be pretty reliable, at least for network programming.

I'm guessing what he's referring to is what he had in the sentance or two after that. I'm seeing the same thing he is, where repeats will show as new shows on my Navigator box, but not show as new on my Passport box. I've got series recordings set up on the Navigator box for The Daily Show and Colbert Report, and have them set to record new episodes only, but it isn't what I actually get. Some days I get all of the reruns of both shows recorded (10:00am, 2:00pm and 8:00pm), and not the new ones, some days I get only the new ones as expected (11:00pm). No real pattern to it. My wife had the same thing happen with shows on MTV and one network show, so those have been moved to the Passport box. I've seen plenty of IPG entries where it says a show is new when it isn't, and it is hard to say it isn't a Navigator specific problem when my Passport box gets it right every time. Guessing they get different guide feeds, and they still have kinks to work out in the Navigator version

I have a pioneer box and it works very well with Navigator.It is fast or faster than the Passport it replaced.

I just received the "within the next week" upgrade email warning. It got sent to my junk folder, so I guess even my email client has heard as well. :D

My 8300HD box just updated today with the new software, and it seems terrible. Also none of my DVR controls are working now, I can't hit record or bring up my recorded shows or anything, is this normal? Any idea why it might not be working anyone?

Edit: I actually have 8300HD DVR boxes in 2 rooms and the DVR functionality doesn't seem to show up on either one.



I believe both my boxes did this too on Sunday Night/Monday Morning... (interrupted a recording I had in progress) and now my video on my HD channels, as well as my OTA channels are virtually unwatchable, as the picture is highly pixellated and there is rampant digital noise.

TWC is on their way out on Saturday (thanks for that VERY prompt service) to "take a look at it" but I'm pretty sure they know damn well what the problem is and are going to give me two new boxes.

I wouldn't mind so much, if I didn't have to go re-enter all my scheduled recordings....

Well, this Sux. My main 8300hd got zapped with navigator a few days ago. It goes into a constant reboot loop and appears fried. We called TWC after work and the earliest they can get anyone out is the end of next week. The worst part is the I have an external hard drive with probably 80 to 100 hours recorded and it will all be lost if they replace the cable box. Akron Ohio area.

The non-hd box in the den was updated several weeks ago and the software stinks. Just one example. When going through a recorded program there is no easy time indicator to go to an exact spot in the recording and when trying to speed through a recording you can no longer hit the right or left arrow to zip 15 minutes at a time. You just have to go at 2 or 3 times fast forward or reverse to slowly go to a spot. It can take many minutes to find the right spot.

One series which was set up to record, now only records with no sound. Other programs record OK, but that channel is viewable with sound but records silent.

Just one example. When going through a recorded program there is no easy time indicator to go to an exact spot in the recording and when trying to speed through a recording you can no longer hit the right or left arrow to zip 15 minutes at a time. You just have to go at 2 or 3 times fast forward or reverse to slowly go to a spot. It can take many minutes to find the right spot.

A ray of sunshine amongst the storm clouds ... if you hold the FFWD or REW button down for a few seconds, it will skip forward in 15 minute increments!:)

I just received the "within the next week" upgrade email warning. It got sent to my junk folder, so I guess even my email client has heard as well. :D

Haha! Which model(s) do you have? Passport-wise, I still have an 8300HD and an 8300, but so far have only gotten the flyer in the mail saying "sometime in the next two months". I'm figuring that they will be upgraded at different times.

How do you set up a manual recording with Navigator? You could do this easily with Passport by pressing Record, but I don't see the option with Navigator (surprise, huh?).

Can anyone confirm if after the upgrade to Navigator on a SA8300HD box you are still able to transfer recorded programs to the computer using Apple's AVC Cap from the Firewire SDK, or at least VLC in Windows?

How do you set up a manual recording with Navigator? You could do this easily with Passport by pressing Record, but I don't see the option with Navigator (surprise, huh?).

You can't.

A ray of sunshine amongst the storm clouds ... if you hold the FFWD or REW button down for a few seconds, it will skip forward in 15 minute increments!:)

Cool - That is a slight ray, but there is still no marker of time to let you know how far you are in to a recording and return there quickly.

Haha! Which model(s) do you have? Passport-wise, I still have an 8300HD and an 8300, but so far have only gotten the flyer in the mail saying "sometime in the next two months". I'm figuring that they will be upgraded at different times.

8300HD. I've had two flyers over the past three weeks or so. You should check your junk mail for signs of Navigation. The email also said I should be receiving the phone call as well.

I'll be unplugging the coax from the box tonight for the next week until I watch what I need to. And just to see what happens when I plug it back in later.

....I'll be unplugging the coax from the box tonight for the next week until I watch what I need to. And just to see what happens when I plug it back in later.

Will this avoid the update, albeit temporarily? I have 2 boxes. One has been updated, and the other hasn't. The one that has not been updated is hooked up via HDMI, and always on. Is it possible the "handshake" in HDMI indicates the TV set is on, and thus no update occurs?

Cool - That is a slight ray, but there is still no marker of time to let you know how far you are in to a recording and return there quickly.

That's one of the two biggest problems, IMO, along with the infuriating REW function that drops you back into the program stream a few seconds ahead of the last frame you were able to view during the rewind. Can't imagine how brief a period of time, and how few lines of code, it would take to fix those two issues. But TWC can't be bothered while they're trying to jam in all this VOD and "value added services" that none of us want. :rolleyes:

Will this avoid the update, albeit temporarily? I have 2 boxes. One has been updated, and the other hasn't. The one that has not been updated is hooked up via HDMI, and always on. Is it possible the "handshake" in HDMI indicates the TV set is on, and thus no update occurs?

Unplugging the coax will keep you from getting the update because you won't get a signal from TW. Otherwise there is nothing you can do to avoid the update. The update doesn't care if you are watching TV, recording a show or the box is sitting off, if the update is sent to the box then the upgrade is going to happen. They are doing it by box type not by location so just because one box at your house gets upgrade it could be a month before the other one gets it. No one is going to just "miss" the upgrade.

So I'm a DVR newbie as of last Saturday, so I'm not up on everything yet. I just know I was loving how absolutely amazing everything worked up until Wednesday, when the interface completely changed.

I'm using an 8300HD, btw.

So I kept using it, and now everything in ridiculously buggy. Episodes won't record that I tell it to record, and it'll randomly grab episodes I specifically told it not to. After don't some research, I see that some new software is the cause of it (Navigator).

I haven't read too much of this thread, but it sounds like the problems aren't just me, so is there ANY way to get them to put the old software back on? And failing that, are there any tips to make this less buggy?

The update doesn't care if you are watching TV, recording a show or the box is sitting off, if the update is sent to the box then the upgrade is going to happen. They are doing it by box type not by location so just because one box at your house gets upgrade it could be a month before the other one gets it. No one is going to just "miss" the upgrade.

I still refuse to acknowledge Navigator as an "upgrade". That would imply that I will be getting new, advanced and more convenient features as well as reliability and stability. From virtually all reports I have read, none of that is true. The only thing Navigator has over SARA, is that it is better looking and has a keyboard search. Now, once a SARA market finally gets Navigator, then we will be able to better determine how it performs on said system. To date, only Passport systems have been switched over (to my knowledge).

The display on my newly navigatored DVR continues to randomly change while the box is off. Passport never did this. During the day it changes from the time to the channel display with no rhyme or reason. I have it set to show the channel while on and the time while off. My other navigator box works fine this way. I tried a cold reboot, but it didn't help. Am I stuck with this annoying behavior?

The other thing I can't stand is going to the list of recorded shows, and it doesn't go back to the show you last watched. It randomly defaults to whatever show on the list it feels like at the time. This is as pain if you stop watching a show, then go back into the list to watch it again, and it defaults to a show maybe 10 up the list. Who would design something like this??

So Time Warner told me that the other software is "no longer available"

Benjamin(Fri May 02 2008 19:19:58 GMT-0400 (EDT))>

I read online something about different softwares for the box and that I might've had a new one install overnight. So I'd like to reverse whatever happened if I can


Lora(Fri May 02 2008 19:20:38 GMT-0400 (EDT))>

that is not able to be done, the other software is not longer available


Benjamin(Fri May 02 2008 19:21:01 GMT-0400 (EDT))>

Why did it change?


Benjamin(Fri May 02 2008 19:21:15 GMT-0400 (EDT))>

This one is apparently broken in some way


Lora(Fri May 02 2008 19:21:32 GMT-0400 (EDT))>

because we went with new software so that we can add new enhancements


Benjamin(Fri May 02 2008 19:22:06 GMT-0400 (EDT))>

But the basics don't seem to be working...


Lora(Fri May 02 2008 19:22:28 GMT-0400 (EDT))>

then we will send a service tech to fix them

Why do I get the feeling this isn't going to help anything?

The display on my newly navigatored DVR continues to randomly change while the box is off. Passport never did this. During the day it changes from the time to the channel display with no rhyme or reason. I have it set to show the channel while on and the time while off. My other navigator box works fine this way. I tried a cold reboot, but it didn't help. Am I stuck with this annoying behavior?

The other thing I can't stand is going to the list of recorded shows, and it doesn't go back to the show you last watched. It randomly defaults to whatever show on the list it feels like at the time. This is as pain if you stop watching a show, then go back into the list to watch it again, and it defaults to a show maybe 10 up the list. Who would design something like this??

On the random time switching, if you did a cold reboot and it is still doing that, unfortunately, you would have to call to get your box changed.

A little unclear on the second issue. Some questions:

1.) Do you mean hitting the List button when you are just watching TV?

2.) Do you mean hitting the List button while in the Guide?

3.) Do you mean hitting the List button during the recording of a show, or playback of a recorded show?

Or is it a combination of these things?

From what I understand, LIST gives you a chronological listing of shows that are recording or already have been recorded. Hitting Select gives you options for how to deal with that recording.

You can press Guide, Info, List, Menu, once to turn on a screen, again to leave the screen, while the LIVE button returns you to Live TV.

The C button or Exit still gets you out of most screens.

When you press the List button, the order afaik should not be changing. The only way you get a different order of LIST recordings is to press List. Go to Scheduled Recordings, and select to show the programs by Title or Date. But as far as the order changing to and from a recording to watching TV, that should not be happening.

Coinciding with the clock issue, my guess would be that you would need a new box....sorry!

Jack

For the List problem, I mean you hit list on the remote and go to programs by date. The order doesn't change, but the selected show it defaults to changes each time you go into the list. On Passport, it always defaulted to the last show you selected in the list. This made it much easier when you go back to the list to continue watching the show you were watching, rather than having to search each time for that show.

I can no longer access Diagnostics on my newly navigatored box by pushing Select until Mail flashes, then hitting the Channel Down button. Has this procedure changed in the latest version?

Why do I get the feeling this isn't going to help anything?Where did you get the idea that they were offering people a choice of firmware?

Well, I wasn't sure, and I decided to talk to tech support instead of waiting for replies in this thread.

Like I said, I just got this thing not a week ago. Have they announced any plans to fix some of these glaring issues?

Have they announced any plans to fix some of these glaring issues?Hell, they haven't even acknowledged them!:rolleyes:

So why did they change if the other software was clearly better?

So why did they change if the other software was clearly better?You ought to go back towards the beginning of this thread for the answers to that. But the bottom line is that:
THEY WERE TOO CHEAP TO PAY APTIV (the Passport folks) TO ADD "FEATURES" THAT THEY WANTED!

So why did they change if the other software was clearly better?They licensed the other software Passport Echo and SARA, from other companies: Aptiv Digital (formerly Pioneer Broadband) and Scientific Atlanta (which is now a part of Cisco). They own this abomination (Digital Navigator) free and clear and control its development. There is probably a promise of savings down the line, though initially it's probably losing them more money in lost subscribers.

Lame.

Well, will getting another model of box fix anything?

What just happened?

I am in the Time Warner Columbus, OH area. My 8300HD Passport system was upgraded in the dead of the night to Mystro (Navigator?) It is much different and better than my 8240HDC. (The 8240HDC is a 8300HDC without the analog receiver.)

Here are the differences:

1. Both receivers are always working and have the one hour buffer. I can switch viewing by pushing the SWAP remote button and the last hour's worth of programming is still there.
2. I can prioritize my series
3. It boots in about a minute
4. It is faster
5. The diagnostic for the 8300HD is 28 pages, for the 8300HDC it is nine pages
6. The software versions panel is completely different. (See below)
7. The menus are about the same
8. I can live with the 8300HD software, but TWC can keep the software on the 8240HDC!


I have not seen any mention of this difference between the two systems (8300HD & 8240HDC) in this forum, but may have missed it.

So, is this just some interim step to Navigator or what?

Here is the information for the 8300HD:

PTV: V6.14.89.lSP Tues October 30, 2007
RES 2.3.1.92.PTV (Mt. Huron) Jan 14, 2008
DAM: 09e Jan 14, 2008
PE: 3.9d30 (MDN 2.4.1) Sep. 26, 2007
Host: 1.27 MDN 2.4 Jan 14, 2008

How did you access the Diagnostics?

I have not seen any mention of this difference between the two systems (8300HD & 8240HDC) in this forum, but may have missed it.Yeah, you did miss it (I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and stipulate that you actually searched :rolleyes:).

There are two versions, one for the old legacy boxes and one for the new boxes whose designations end in "C". I posted an explanation of the differences in this thread 5 or 6 weeks ago, here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13468011#post13468011). Someone else talked about there being different versions as long ago as July 2007--he's quoted in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11088339#post11088339) post, but I can't find his original post.

Yeah, you did miss it (I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and stipulate that you actually searched :rolleyes:).He may not be the first to notice, but he's given the best side-by-side comparison so far.

Who would design something like this??

THEY WERE TOO CHEAP TO PAY APTIV (the Passport folks) TO ADD "FEATURES" THAT THEY WANTED!



I think these two quotes summarize the situation nicely. :p

This begs the question that I have not looked into. Then who writes software for the satellite companies? I'm pretty sure Dish has their own staff for theirs, but not sure about DirecTV. How is it that they are light years beyond anything cable can offer? I know that the OCAP standard has a lot to do with holding cable back, but really, with the right people on the job it should not be such a mess.

For example, when I was a Dish sub years back they had a known issue when you would bring up the guide that the pip box going to the corner would blank out. Within a few months the issue was resolved and new features were added. Not to leave out, the guide had keyboard/keyword search, customizable grid, and fast/accurate response. This was FIVE years ago! I just don't see how cable can be so far behind the curve with something as important as an IPG. It's the cornerstone of their video service.

This begs the question that I have not looked into. Then who writes software for the satellite companies? I'm pretty sure Dish has their own staff for theirs, but not sure about DirecTV. How is it that they are light years beyond anything cable can offer? I know that the OCAP standard has a lot to do with holding cable back, but really, with the right people on the job it should not be such a mess.

For example, when I was a Dish sub years back they had a known issue when you would bring up the guide that the pip box going to the corner would blank out. Within a few months the issue was resolved and new features were added. Not to leave out, the guide had keyboard/keyword search, customizable grid, and fast/accurate response. This was FIVE years ago! I just don't see how cable can be so far behind the curve with something as important as an IPG. It's the cornerstone of their video service.

Not only that Ben,

But there are other cable companies that have written in-house IPG's, and to my knowledge, there were not problems with them. Adelphia and Charter come to mind. I do know that complaints run rampant on all the cable companies who are monopolies and have pretty $hitty customer service overall. However, it is possible, from the examples above that a quality in-house guide can be constructed without the frustrations and mess.

I have been very lucky with Navigator so far (knock on wood.) However, I fail to understand how TWC can not only provide a guide who's performance fluctuates so much, not just from state to state, but box to box. Furthermore, to take away basic standard features, such as Keyboard Word Search, and a "View This Channel Now" is just plain ludicrous! To even further the enigma that is Navigator, SOME features are nice, such as the DVR full indicator gage, the ability to have instance access to lists of Kids, Weather/News, and Sports Programs, and the appearance of the On Demand Channel Menus. The Sports Menu needs more categories in the list. Some of the categories are ambiguous:

1.) There is a Classic Movie category. But what defines a Classic Movie? Is it because it's old? Is it because it's seen by so many populations over the years? The word "Classic" means different things to different people. Passport had a more specific list.

2.) A similar story exists with the Sports Category. As I mentioned previously, there is no category for Sports that should obviously be included. (i.e Tennis.) You have to look under Sports Misc, or go to the Access Menu (A) and select Sports Now, to find some categories that should already be in the List but are not included.

3.) But then you have advanced options that serve no purpose, for example finding a movie by Title, without using the keyboard. You have to Page Up/Down using that button, and hope that you have a fast enough box that can keep up. But there is no Power Search mode with Page+/- like there was with Passport. For Movie Searches, you are almost forced to search by a sub-category for Movies. Select All Movies, and you'll be sitting there for the rest of your life. And what is the purpose of searching in the DVR Show List by Title? Do you ever need to know if something you have recorded if it's alphabetized? I sure don't. You want to know the date when a show was recorded, so that you can get to the content as easily as possible.

I think Navigator has potential, but it's too far behind the times with the features and reliability that should not even be an issue for the #2 cable company in the country. There are some things that are OK, but nothing revolutionary that a person would classify this as an "Upgrade." Navigator looks more like a different, and at times confusing, way of presenting information, who's features often look cluttered, unfinished, and as if they were put together by different people representing an older technology time-frame.

Jack

He may not be the first to notice, but he's given the best side-by-side comparison so far.That's true. The other posts that I cited were mostly concerned with pointing out that two different versions of Navigator are in use (and will continue to be in use, so long as the "legacy" equipment survives), and why; they didn't get into enumerating the functional differences between them, which Bismark has made a good start at.
This begs the question that I have not looked into. Then who writes software for the satellite companies? I'm pretty sure Dish has their own staff for theirs, but not sure about DirecTV. How is it that they are light years beyond anything cable can offer? I know that the OCAP standard has a lot to do with holding cable back, but really, with the right people on the job it should not be such a mess.As mentioned previously, DirecTV bought ReplayTV and I assume that the guide running on their current equipment is based on that. ReplayTV was a commercial box in direct competition with TiVo, and was good enough to be preferred over TiVo by some.

This begs the question that I have not looked into. Then who writes software for the satellite companies? I'm pretty sure Dish has their own staff for theirs, but not sure about DirecTV.

For DVRs, I think DirecTV started out with TiVo. A few years back they switched to using NDS' software. At the time, NewsCorp had a huge stake in both NDS and DirecTV. NewsCorp has since swapped away most, if not all, of its DirecTV interest to Liberty...

Anyway, as it relates to the Navigator situation, the NDS software was pretty crummy and unreliable at first. All the subs seemed to be clamoring for DirecTV to stick with TiVo. DirecTV stuck with NDS though, and the boxes with that software are generally pretty stable now. I think the UI could still be more intuitive, but at least the stability and basic functionality are there.

I can only hope that TWC continues to work the kinks out of Navigator and add back some of the missing Passport features.

8300HD. I've had two flyers over the past three weeks or so. You should check your junk mail for signs of Navigation. The email also said I should be receiving the phone call as well.

I'll be unplugging the coax from the box tonight for the next week until I watch what I need to. And just to see what happens when I plug it back in later.

Yeah, I don't think TWC has my email address, so I'm just expecting/hoping to get the courtesy phone call. I'm trying to keep my recorded programs pared back in the meantime to reduce potential problems.

Hi, I hope this is the right place to post this. I am the recent recipient of an unwanted upgrade to Navigator in the Columbus, OH area. In addition to a personal dislike of anything in this joke of a system beyond what Passport had to offer, I'm now facing a serious technical problem, and I'm wondering if anyone else has encountered the same. As of a couple hours ago, my Explorer 8000 box is locking up whenever I try to watch any pre-recorded program. After I select the program and then select play, the display on the box shows the channel the program was recorded on, and the system hangs on the recorded programs menu screen. After a couple of minutes, the box reboots on its own. I've tried this around a dozen times with different programs each time, with the box on different channels, and selecting both "Play" and "Resume". I've tried unplugging the box as well to no effect. Customer Service had nothing to offer me beyond a service call, and had no record of similar issues. I find it very hard to believe that this problem and the switch to Navigator are independent of one another. Any assistance is greatly appreciated.

As of a couple hours ago, my Explorer 8000 box is locking up whenever I try to watch any pre-recorded program.

I can't help with you problem, but I will suggest swapping out the 8000 for an 8300 if they are available. The 8000 was a bad box all round and I don't think Navigator is going to make it any more pleasant.

You've already been Navigated so you don't have much to lose now. Unless you get an HDC version in which case all bets are off. That one seems to have it's own issues as well.

I had an SA8000HD running Passport Echo for two years and never felt any urge to trade it in for an 8300HD; except when running some of the more abortive releases of Passport, it worked fine, with far fewer problems for me than many using SA8300HDs were experiencing. I finally moved and switched providers from TWC to Cox and ended up with an SA8300HD running SARA. Using it was absolutely, positively the most unpleasant experience I've ever had using a piece of consumer electronics, ever. I don't blame the Explorer 8300HD for that, though :).

On spec, the SA8300HD is an improvement, with more video memory (I think) and faster processors. Though as VisionOn points out, you might end up with a SA8300HDC running the OCAP version of Navigator, which might be even worse (it's definitely worse than the SA8300HD--no "C"--running the non-OCAP versions of Navigator).

Okay, I've been able to resolve it on my own. My best guess is that it appears to be linked to powering on the box on one of the digital cable channels. I had it set to one of the channels in the 900-range when the problem started, and it would default back to this channel every time I rebooted. I still got the problem if I changed channels and tried to watch a recording. However, once I switched to a non-digital channel (I used 4), powered off, and powered back on, it worked fine (tested 3 or 4 shows). I then switched back to the 900-series channel, tried to watch a recording, and got the same error as before. Anyone know why in the world this would happen? I'm just glad I know how to work around it, but I hope they resolve it in the future.

"As mentioned previously, DirecTV bought ReplayTV and I assume that the guide running on their current equipment is based on that. ReplayTV was a commercial box in direct competition with TiVo, and was good enough to be preferred over TiVo by some."

SonicBlue bought ReplayTV after it was sued by cable companies (replay had a workable commercial skip feature) and almost bankrupted. Then SonicBlue (Diamond merged with S3) went Chap 11 and D&M (Denon and Marantz) bought the assets.

"As mentioned previously, DirecTV bought ReplayTV and I assume that the guide running on their current equipment is based on that. ReplayTV was a commercial box in direct competition with TiVo, and was good enough to be preferred over TiVo by some."

SonicBlue bought ReplayTV after it was sued by cable companies (replay had a workable commercial skip feature) and almost bankrupted. Then SonicBlue (Diamond merged with S3) went Chap 11 and D&M (Denon and Marantz) bought the assets.That's definitely not the way that I remember it. ReplayTV was purchased by SONICBlue in early 2001 and the 4000 series units were introduced in the fall of that year, adding new share-content-with-a-friend over the Internet and ad-skipping features that pissed off "the studios". A bunch of them joined for a suit against them--the EFF has a copy of it online, here (http://w2.eff.org/IP/Video/Paramount_v_ReplayTV/20011031_complaint.html), Paramount, et al (Paramount, Disney, NBC, Showtime, ABC, CBS, etc) vs ReplayTV, Inc. and SONICBlue, Inc, filed on 31 October 2001. The EFF launched a countersuit in defense of ReplayTV users in June of 2002.

I was an avid PC gamer at the time and I kept track of what SonicBlue--which comprised the former S3 and Diamond--was fielding in the way of PC graphics and audio cards and remembered visiting their website and finding blurbs begging for funds to help defend against this suit. From a Forbes recap of SonicBlue published as they filed Chapter 11 (http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/24/cx_ah_0324tentech.html):
It was about that time that it changed its name to SonicBlue. Then, in February 2001, SonicBlue snuck in to acquire the assets of bankrupt ReplayTV, which made hard-drive based video recorders similar to those turned out by TiVo (nasdaq: TIVO - news - people ).

But then SonicBlue made a few changes to the ReplayTV's features. It added the ability to skip commercials when watching recorded programs. Apparently unable to realize that most people fast-forward through commercials when watching shows recorded to conventional VCRs, Hollywood freaked out. A coalition of 28 major media companies, among them General Electric's (nyse: GE - news - people ) NBC, Viacom's (nyse: VIA - news - people ) CBS and The Walt Disney Co. (nyse: DIS - news - people ), parent of ABC, took SonicBlue to court in 2001. Allowing viewers the choice to watch or not watch the commercials these broadcasters make money from threatened their revenue stream, they said.

I've really had with Navigator. It's just terrible all the way around. Is it possible to use Tivo equipment and service with Time Warner instead of the SA boxes?

I've really had with Navigator. It's just terrible all the way around. Is it possible to use Tivo equipment and service with Time Warner instead of the SA boxes?

Just went through this whole thing a month ago... The answer is "maybe". It all depends upon what channels you want to watch and record.

If you only care about standard definition TV and the analog channels you can get on a normal cable-ready TV set without a cable box, you can use a Tivo series 2 without any major headache.

If you want digital tier channels (but not HDTV channels), you can attach one of the Tivo series 2 tuners to a cable box. This will let you record two analog channels simultaneously, or one analog channel and one digital channel simultaneously. You will not be able to record two digital channels at a time.

If you want HDTV channels on your Tivo you will have to get a Tivo HD which requires a CableCard from the cable company. If you read the Tivo forums, you will find that this setup doesn't always work well. Some people have no problems while others have lots of problems.

Complicating the Tivo HD situation is that Time Warner is migrating to Switched Digital Video (SDV) on their cable systems. Some systems are mostly SDV, while others are only just beginning to experiement with it. SDV will render your CableCard (and Tivo) useless for any SDV channels until the tuning adapter development is complete. (The tuning adapter is a little USB box that plugs into your Tivo so it can talk back to the cable company distribution network.) Despite the fact that people keep saying the device will be available in 2008, many are skeptical on that time holding firm as this device actually has to finish development by the manufacturer and then be provided to cable companies for tuning to their system and then provided to you by the cable company. Here's info on SDV:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=357703

I've really had with Navigator. It's just terrible all the way around. Is it possible to use Tivo equipment and service with Time Warner instead of the SA boxes?That's what I do. I have a TiVo Series3 with a 3 year service contract and two TWC supplied CableCARDs. My housemate uses leased boxes, so there's an Explorer 8300HD in the family room running MDN and an Explorer 4250HDC in his room running ODN.

The only issue is that the cable companies are increasingly using Switched Digital Video to provide new channels and TiVo currently cannot access Switched Digital Video services. (See the SDV FAQ (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=357703) at TiVo Community Forums to see what SDV is and how it affects TiVo). The cable providers are preparing a solution for this to be rolled out soon and SDV isn't in use in my cable system yet.

Since you have Tivo and SA boxes in the same living area, how do they compare? Could you point out the advantages of the Tivo box, since I'm not too familiar with their boxes?

Since you have Tivo and SA boxes in the same living area, how do they compare? Could you point out the advantages of the Tivo box, since I'm not too familiar with their boxes?The advantages of TiVo are too many to list here, but I'll try to hit the high points :): Rock Solid Engineering. TiVo has far, far fewer bugs than any of the cable system DVRs and they update it frequently, fixing bugs and adding new and useful features.
Better UI. Many DVR systems out there steal copiously from TiVo's UI design, which is very clean and functional. Playback navigation is improved with the addition of "skip-to-tick" (depending upon the length of the recording, there are tick-marks every 15, 30 or 60 minutes on the progress bar--you can instantly skip forward or back to one of these points). There's also an undocumented/unsupported 30-second-skip-forward/8-second-skip-back feature which can be enabled.
Superior Guide Data. TiVo gets its guide data from Tribune Media Services (the same source as Zap2It.com--in fact you can set up your Zap2It account to allow programming your TiVos). It has decently long program descriptions with a ton of ancilliary information (directors, guest stars, producers, episode number, original air date, etc), and it keeps 14 days of it available at all times.
Great Guide Search Capability. TiVo has incremental title search with genre and subgenre filtering. Additionally, it has:
Wishlists. Wishlists are essentially stored complex guide searches which you can either use to immediately search the guide or which can be set up to automatically record any matching programs. You can set up a wishlists like "all high-definition science-fiction movies starring Tom Cruise" or "all tennis sporting events".
Networked Features. Connect your TiVo to your LAN and the Internet (with either an Ethernet cable or an available USB wireless adapter) and you get access to a world of stuff, including but not limited to: File Transfers. Unless the content provider has marked it Copy One Generation (and lots of stuff on pay and subscription cable is so marked on many cable systems), you can copy programs from your TiVo onto disk on your PC, where it can either be played back directly, reformatted for playback on portable devices or just stored to be transferred back to TiVo later. A certain range of video formats can be transferred from your PC onto TiVo for playback, including most camcorder video.
Music and Photos. You can display photographs and play MP3s as stored in shared directories on the PCs on your LAN.
Remote Scheduling. If you hear about something coming on tonight or later in the week from someone at work, you can program your TiVo to catch it from any handy networked PC.
Amazon Unbox. Amazon sells and rents movies and TV series episodes (sale only for the TV), which can be downloaded unto TiVo over the Internet. Check out http://unbox.amazon.com .
TiVoCasts. There are a plethora of online video programs which can be downloaded onto TiVo either automatically as they're published or manually. See this (http://www3.tivo.com/tivo-tco/cds/index.do).
Rhapsody. A subscription online music service. See this (http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/whatsnew/rhapsodymusicservice/index.html?WT.srch=1) for details.
Universal Swivel Search. Difficult to describe--see a little article about this here (http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2007-05/tivo-unveils-swivel-search/).
Suggestions. TiVo pays attention to what you watch, and you can further inform it of your likes and dislikes by rating programs while you view them with the THUMBS UP and THUMBS DOWN buttons. TiVo can use this knowledge to guess at other things that you'd like to see and record them on a provisional basis (they get deleted first if it needs to make space for something that you've scheduled recording of). I've never particularly cared for this but some people love it.
Expansion Disk Drive. TiVo supports the use of an external eSATA HDD to expand the recording space of the TiVo HD and TiVo Series3. For support, you have to be using a drive from their list, which consists of a single item thus far, the 500GB Western Digital "My DVR Expander". Out of the box, TiVo HD will only use this drive, though there's some hack that will make it accept others; TiVo Series3 will work with most any external eSATA drive, some better than others, but TiVo will not support their use. (You can add an eSATA drive to an SA8300HD as well, and it reportedly works fine with Navigator, but I'm unaware of any cable provider supporting this and they won't help you to get it to work or if it stops working).In the interest of fairness, I'll list a few things that I think that Navigator has over TiVo: Access To Interactive Cable Services. You can access Impulse Pay-Per-View and free, subscription and pay Video On Demand services with Navigator, and all of that content is matched by guide searches. You cannot watch any of it with TiVo. (There are some systems in which you can order Pay Per View for CableCARD devices on a web page or by calling the cable company).
Disk Usage Meter. Navigator has a display of what percentage of recordable disk space is in use. I find this less than terribly useful in this day of digital television with wildly varied bit rates, but there are those who love having the information. TiVo is aware that there is a certain demand for the feature, but they don't think that it's very high and implementing it remains so low on their list that it might never happen.
Bigger Buffer. TiVo only buffers 30 minutes of live play, whereas Navigator keeps an hour buffer. That hour can be occasionally very useful when you happen to sit down 40 minutes into an hour-long program that you take an interest in. Of course, it's an hour (or more) of lost permanent recording capacity. I don't know about Navigator, but Passport Echo allocated 16GB to those big buffers.

While we can all agree that Tivo is the gold standard for DVR, in the order of fairness it should be pointed out that one other plus on the cable side is cost. Cable DVR is a much less expensive DVR solution on two fronts. A) You don't have to buy the hardware (a Tivo HD DVR is $299) and B) the monthly cost is almost half of Tivo. In my market, I pay $7.95 for DVR service whereas Tivo's per month cost is $12.95 plus the cost of a CableCard (which won't work if you have SDV).

Now, the Comcast/Tivo marriage shows a TON of promise, but has only been deployed in a few select markets. I'd really love some feedback on how that is going. If anyone has any links, please post them. I have said all along here that a successful union with Tivo and Cable should have been in the works for multiple providers because if it is done right that give you the best of both worlds. SDV support and all the VOD, PPV, etc. with the Tivo interface.

In my market, I pay $7.95 for DVR service whereas Tivo's per month cost is $12.95 plus the cost of a CableCard (which won't work if you have SDV).In my market, we pay Time Warner $7.95/month for any box (DVRs included) + $9.95/month for "DVR Service". That's $18/month to have an HD DVR running the fabulous TWC Digital Navigator. You'll pay $600 for TiVo HD + a prepaid 3 year service plan and $1.75/month for a single M-Card. That's $663 total or $18.41/month if you amortize it over the 3 years of your TiVo service plan--note that if you buy another 3 year plan after the first is over, it drops down to $10.08/month (with CableCARD lease) to use. Of course, it's not a monthly charge and you do have to pay for it all up front (except the CableCARD lease).

Also note that SDV support for current-model CableCARD TiVos is fast approaching. CableLabs, TiVo and some other CE OEMs have collaborated on a device to enable SDV tuning for unidrectional CableCARD products with USB ports called the "Tuning Adapter" (previously called "Tuning Resolver"), which TiVo and the NCTA estimated would become available from cable providers sometime during the second calendar quarter of this year. I posted about recent signs of progress on the Tuning Adapter here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13756799#post13756799) in the TiVo thread.

TiVo is reportedly working on a new model with built-in <tru2way> (and hence SDV, IPPV and VOD) support. I wrote about that in the TiVo thread recently in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13762038#post13762038) post.

The Columbus Dispatch ran an article this weekend about customer complaints regarding Navigator. Highlights and link below...

Modified program guide spurs complaints
Sunday, May 4, 2008, By Amy Saunders, Columbus Dispatch

Channel-surfing has become annoyingly time-consuming for some Time Warner Cable customers as the company continues to roll out a new program guide in central Ohio.

The company says it's not yet able to fix software problems that are causing delays for some users of the new system, Navigator.

Some customers who have the system say it takes as long as 10 seconds for the menu to appear on the screen, and an additional three to four seconds to change each channel.

Time Warner has received complaints about approximately 9,000 cable boxes since it began implementing Navigator in mid-March, spokeswoman Judy Barbao said.

With the rollout about 75 percent complete, 100,000 more customers are expected to receive the new channel guide in the next few weeks.

Whether they'll experience similar problems remains to be seen. The order of the rollout is determined by types of cable boxes -- but so far, the sluggishness hasn't been limited to a particular model of box.

"It's been random and unpredictable," Barbao said. "Somebody could have the exact same model as somebody else and their model isn't experiencing it."

A software upgrade intended to speed up the system will be automatically downloaded on boxes starting in mid-May. Some customers might not see improvement until later in the summer, Barbao said.

A different upgrade installed in the last couple of weeks should have fixed a glitch that was causing cable boxes to reboot at inopportune times, -- such as in the middle of a TV show.

"Your box rebooting occasionally happens with any provider," Barbao said. "If it's a repeated issue … as far as we've determined, that should not be happening anymore."

Overall, the Navigator system is operating more smoothly than it did in markets that received it earlier. In Lincoln, Neb., where Navigator was introduced in 2006, customers were so frustrated with the software that city officials tried -- but failed -- to negotiate a refund with Time Warner.

"We've seen tremendous advancements between then and now," Barbao said. "It was literally just a technology error that had to be explored and worked on by our engineers to identify what the issues were."

Eventually, the Navigator software will support additional high-definition channels and new features such as Start Over, which will let customers replay a show if they've missed the beginning. That feature will make its debut on some central Ohio televisions beginning in mid-May."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2008/05/04/time_warner.ART_ART_05-04-08_D1_LLA3EL6.html?sid=101

I'm happy as a clam for the moment. The TWC tech that came out on Saturday brought me a new 8300HD to replace the 8300HDC that was giving me fits. :) So now I have two healthy 8300HD's running Passport! :D I could end up getting Navigatored at any time in the next few weeks, but at least I no longer have a buggy OCrAP box! :rolleyes:

The CSR I spoke with last week told me that they are not sending any notices to specific customers who are about to have Navigator installed - no postcards, emails, or phone calls. They did however mail out general info flyers back in March to all customers advising that Navigator was coming. They also have run TV commercials about Navigator and have info on their website. I sure would prefer to be specifically warned a couple days in advance like some regions are doing, but it doesn't sound like that's happening locally. :(

Also - I posted the question below a few days ago, but no one replied. Does anyone with MDN Navigator on an 8300HD know the answer?

(On my 8300HDC) I noticed that live shows still do not buffer while watching a pre-recorded program - nor does the alternate tuner buffer while watching the other tuner. Is that still a problem with both ODN and MDN versions, or just ODN?

The Columbus Dispatch ran an article this weekend about customer complaints regarding Navigator. Highlights and link below...

Modified program guide spurs complaints
Sunday, May 4, 2008, By Amy Saunders, Columbus Dispatch

Channel-surfing has become annoyingly time-consuming for some Time Warner Cable customers as the company continues to roll out a new program guide in central Ohio.

The company says it's not yet able to fix software problems that are causing delays for some users of the new system, Navigator.

Some customers who have the system say it takes as long as 10 seconds for the menu to appear on the screen, and an additional three to four seconds to change each channel.

Time Warner has received complaints about approximately 9,000 cable boxes since it began implementing Navigator in mid-March, spokeswoman Judy Barbao said.

With the rollout about 75 percent complete, 100,000 more customers are expected to receive the new channel guide in the next few weeks.

Whether they'll experience similar problems remains to be seen. The order of the rollout is determined by types of cable boxes -- but so far, the sluggishness hasn't been limited to a particular model of box.

"It's been random and unpredictable," Barbao said. "Somebody could have the exact same model as somebody else and their model isn't experiencing it."

A software upgrade intended to speed up the system will be automatically downloaded on boxes starting in mid-May. Some customers might not see improvement until later in the summer, Barbao said.

A different upgrade installed in the last couple of weeks should have fixed a glitch that was causing cable boxes to reboot at inopportune times, -- such as in the middle of a TV show.

"Your box rebooting occasionally happens with any provider," Barbao said. "If it's a repeated issue … as far as we've determined, that should not be happening anymore."

Overall, the Navigator system is operating more smoothly than it did in markets that received it earlier. In Lincoln, Neb., where Navigator was introduced in 2006, customers were so frustrated with the software that city officials tried -- but failed -- to negotiate a refund with Time Warner.

"We've seen tremendous advancements between then and now," Barbao said. "It was literally just a technology error that had to be explored and worked on by our engineers to identify what the issues were."

Eventually, the Navigator software will support additional high-definition channels and new features such as Start Over, which will let customers replay a show if they've missed the beginning. That feature will make its debut on some central Ohio televisions beginning in mid-May."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/business/stories/2008/05/04/time_warner.ART_ART_05-04-08_D1_LLA3EL6.html?sid=101

What is really sad is that here in Greensboro NC we are on SARA 1.89.17.1.We have Start Over,Caller ID on TV, Quick Clips.SDV.With the exception of a better search engine how is Navigator going to be any improvement here. (Unless you really want the hot new constant rebooting feature)

The CSR I spoke with last week told me that they are not sending any notices to specific customers who are about to have Navigator installed - no postcards, emails, or phone calls.

Not so with me, as I got this email this morning saying it's going to happen this week! Oh, well...

Dear Digital Cable Customer,

This is a reminder that we will be updating your Digital Cable on-screen guide to the new Digital Navigator soon! The new guide will automatically load on your set-top box through our advanced fiber network in the early morning hours of a day later this week.

I just got my Navigator phone call today at around noon today. It stated that one of the boxes in my house will be updated to Navigator within 24 hours. I only have one box, and it is a SA 8300HD box.

I just got my Navigator phone call today at around noon today. It stated that one of the boxes in my house will be updated to Navigator within 24 hours. I only have one box, and it is a SA 8300HD box.


Got the same call today for my 8300HD. I am actually glad Navigator is coming because it doesn't seem like we are going to get any more HD channels here until SDV is online so the sooner Navigator comes, hopefully the sooner the channels will come. I know wishful thinking on my part but I like to live in a dream world...

Not so with me, as I got this email this morning saying it's going to happen this week!

Figures. Seems like no CSR ever gives the same answer twice. :rolleyes:

What box do you have BPC4?

8300HD. Let's hope my external drive survives the 'gator attack.

8300HD. Let's hope my external drive survives the 'gator attack.

This is becoming an important issue in my market. TWC here has been adding HD channels every few weeks since the deployment of SDV, so things I was normally taping in SD are now being recorded in HD. Thus, the paltry 160GB drive is getting gobbled up fast. I'm looking around now for at least a 500GB SATA drive to expand capacity. This is one of the reasons I don't get why Cisco would release the 8550 with only the same 160GB size. Don't they realize that HD is/will be progressing at a more rapid pace?

The Columbus Dispatch ran an article this weekend about customer complaints regarding Navigator. Highlights and link below...

[I]Modified program guide spurs complaints
Sunday, May 4, 2008, By Amy Saunders, Columbus Dispatch


A software upgrade intended to speed up the system will be automatically downloaded on boxes starting in mid-May. Some customers might not see improvement until later in the summer, Barbao said.

A different upgrade installed in the last couple of weeks should have fixed a glitch that was causing cable boxes to reboot at inopportune times, -- such as in the middle of a TV show.

]

8300HD. Let's hope my external drive survives the 'gator attack.


I wonder if this magic upgrade that is suppose to come mid-may will address the sata drive sleep bug freeze up problem? And what version of Navigator are you folks in the Columbus area running?

Got the same call today for my 8300HD. I am actually glad Navigator is coming because it doesn't seem like we are going to get any more HD channels here until SDV is online so the sooner Navigator comes, hopefully the sooner the channels will come. I know wishful thinking on my part but I like to live in a dream world...

I'm all for getting more HD channels. But, a stable, fast, and useful operating system is much more crucial. TWC could roll out 50 more HD channels tomorrow, but if the Mystro/Navigator software is still a slow and buggy hot-mess - who cares?!?!. The overall service experiece is more important than whether or not I can watch Battlestar Galactica and Kyle XY in HD. The major inconveniences of random reboots; failed series recordings; etc., are deal breakers. They have to focus on getting these software and hardware problems fixed before they start moving ahead with new services.

This is becoming an important issue in my market. TWC here has been adding HD channels every few weeks since the deployment of SDV, so things I was normally taping in SD are now being recorded in HD. Thus, the paltry 160GB drive is getting gobbled up fast. I'm looking around now for at least a 500GB SATA drive to expand capacity. This is one of the reasons I don't get why Cisco would release the 8550 with only the same 160GB size. Don't they realize that HD is/will be progressing at a more rapid pace?

It's all about the $$$. A smaller standard hard drive means lower cost to their customers (ie: the cable companies). I just wish they would at least offer the option for greater capicity internal-drives. I don't want to have to fuss with an external drive, but it looks like I'll be heading down that path soon anyway.

I wonder if this magic upgrade that is suppose to come mid-may will address the sata drive sleep bug freeze up problem? And what version of Navigator are you folks in the Columbus area running?

The 8300HDC box I had was running the 2.4.9_3 version of ODN.
I'm not sure what MDN version the 8300HD boxes will be running.

I got the automated call from hell today, telling me I'm getting 'gatored in the next 24 hs, which probably means tonight. I'm scared for my life. I posted this a few times but I got no reply. Is anybody here that got 'gatored is transferring/capturing shows through firewire to the Apple AVCCap application that comes in the Firewire SDK? Or at least using PC, Windows or Linux? I can do that with Passport now, but not with another box that has Navigator on, although my Passport box is a SA8300HD, and the Gator box is a SA8300HDC, so I don't know if the difference is in the hardware, or the software. I know there's nothing I can do, I called Time Warner and bitched about it, but they told me eventually all the boxes will get it and there's nothing I can do. I just hope they lose a lot of customers, and that the executives that pushed and implemented this unwelcome change get fired.

I wouldn't worry too much--I haven't heard of anyone losing stuff during any transition recently. The worst I've heard of is a few recordings being mislabelled and some series recording entries with no upcoming programs being lost. When the box in our family room was updated, nothing was lost or mislabelled.

Well, I lost a couple of recordings and a couple of series recordings. And, the box has hung up on me three times in as many days, all while scrolling through the guide.

And, since TWC is getting creative with the billing for me for the last couple of months, I am on a hair trigger to call DirecTV. In fact, I am going to do it tomorrow!

I just got my Navigator phone call today at around noon today. It stated that one of the boxes in my house will be updated to Navigator within 24 hours. I only have one box, and it is a SA 8300HD box.

I got the call on Saturday here in Charlotte that my 8300HD will be downgraded to Navigator tomorrow.

We moved to our new house about 8 months ago and switched from DirecTV to TWC. I'm secretly hoping that the Naivgator downgrade has the wife begging to go back to DirecTV! Evidently the dish has a low WAF at our new house. :rolleyes:

While we can all agree that Tivo is the gold standard for DVR, in the order of fairness it should be pointed out that one other plus on the cable side is cost. Cable DVR is a much less expensive DVR solution on two fronts. A) You don't have to buy the hardware (a Tivo HD DVR is $299) and B) the monthly cost is almost half of Tivo. In my market, I pay $7.95 for DVR service whereas Tivo's per month cost is $12.95 plus the cost of a CableCard (which won't work if you have SDV).

Ben,

Here in Charlotte it costs $17 a month for each DVR comprised of $9 for the box and $8 for DVR "Service". LOL, they should pass those in-house development savings and pay us $8 a month for putting up with their crap.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/Charlotte/customer/1653price.html

You can get a TivoHD for around $250 and prepay 3 years of service for $299. Throw in the cost of a CableCard and the total cost is $17 a month when the box is amortized over 3 years.

In other words, it's the same price as a TWC DVR and you get all the features michaeltscott listed.

The wildcard of course is SDV and the tuning adapter which will be offered directly through the cable providers. Both Motorola and Cisco / SA are on track for late 2Q or 3Q deployments.

There has been no discussion of what the cable providers would charge, but I don't think it will be much since the only reason the cable companies are offering it is so that the FCC will approve their OpenCable / <tru2way> proposal.

And, since TWC is getting creative with the billing for me for the last couple of months, I am on a hair trigger to call DirecTV. In fact, I am going to do it tomorrow!

Go for it. The HR-20 I used before I moved was WAY better than Passport and they have only added more features since I left.

If your residence isn't wired for satellite(a.k.a two lines going to every room) google "single wire multiswitch" or go over to dbstalk.com.

It enables you to split a satellite signal like a cable signal.

I got the Navigation call at 8.30pm last night.

Box is now permanently disconnected from the cable. I'll plug it back in again sometime later in the week when I've watched enough prerecorded material. Everything else I'll record through my DVD-R and watch on the direct cable feed to the TV. There's very little I have to record this week.

I'll be interested to see what happens when I do plug it back in.

Ben,

Here in Charlotte it costs $17 a month for each DVR comprised of $9 for the box and $8 for DVR "Service". LOL, they should pass those in-house development savings and pay us $8 a month for putting up with their crap.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/Charlotte/customer/1653price.html

You can get a TivoHD for around $250 and prepay 3 years of service for $299. Throw in the cost of a CableCard and the total cost is $17 a month when the box is amortized over 3 years.

In other words, it's the same price as a TWC DVR and you get all the features michaeltscott listed.

The wildcard of course is SDV and the tuning adapter which will be offered directly through the cable providers. Both Motorola and Cisco / SA are on track for late 2Q or 3Q deployments.

There has been no discussion of what the cable providers would charge, but I don't think it will be much since the only reason the cable companies are offering it is so that the FCC will approve their OpenCable / <tru2way> proposal.


I should have added that it may vary by market as these postings point out. Here, I pay nothing for the HD DVR (it is included in the cost off my digital cable package and the DVR fee stands at $7.95. Sounds like you guys are getting ripped two fold, once with the fee and twice with the Navigator guide!

There has been discussion that the cable providers were to supply the tuning adapters at no cost, but I doubt that highly. They will see an option to make money and take it.

After trading in my 8300HDC with Navigator for an 8300HD with Passport back in February I got re-Navigatored overnight. No phone call ahead of time, just some marketing mail a couple of weeks ago saying it was coming.

My settings seem to have come over ok and except for one mis-labeled recording (a Dave Ramsey recording came over with the title Unknown and it's labeled "Adult") all the stuff on the DVR came over.

Definitely slower than Passport but not as slow as I remember. This version does a "fade in" when you press Guide and Info and such that to me makes it seem less responsive.

The diagnostics screen is difficult to read as it does not dim or blank out the show behind it. I'll have to find a channel that's mostly dark so I can read it. Also the font on this screen is difficult to read.

On the plus side, I have caller ID again and it hasn't rebooted in over 4 hours...

Jim

Got Navigator last...no real problems. I do have one question. I would prefer for the channel to show when the box is on and the time to show when it is off. I set it to "show channels always" but with that setting, the channel shows when the box is off also. What's up with that?

I didn't get the call last night either and when the wife turned on the TV, just the MDN version of the BSOD in a constant loop:confused: Spoke to customer service this morning and my options were to swap out the box myself or arrange a service call to have the technician do the same thing. At least she told me that the local Raleigh office had a few 8300HD's left (I'll believe it when I get my hands on one). I've had the 8300HDC on my second TV since last fall and it seems to need rebooting at least once a week so that was not an option. Was looking forward to watching 10 hrs. of Carrier in HD:(

I didn't get the call last night either and when the wife turned on the TV, just the MDN version of the BSOD in a constant loop:confused: Spoke to customer service this morning and my options were to swap out the box myself or arrange a service call to have the technician do the same thing. At least she told me that the local Raleigh office had a few 8300HD's left (I'll believe it when I get my hands on one). I've had the 8300HDC on my second TV since last fall and it seems to need rebooting at least once a week so that was not an option. Was looking forward to watching 10 hrs. of Carrier in HD:(


Hey Tim...here's a quote off my local board: Mine used to do this everytime there was an update. If i hooked it up to a different cable outlet in the house, it would finish the update. Another guy on the thread was having the same problem as you tried another cable outlet and it actually finished the update,worked fine and he didn't lose anything on his box. Might be worth trying before you trade in the box and lose your recordings. Can't hurt right?

Hey Tim...here's a quote off my local board: Mine used to do this everytime there was an update. If i hooked it up to a different cable outlet in the house, it would finish the update. Another guy on the thread was having the same problem as you tried another cable outlet and it actually finished the update,worked fine and he didn't lose anything on his box. Might be worth trying before you trade in the box and lose your recordings. Can't hurt right?

Sort of makes one wonder if there's a signal strength problem with that outlet. Anyway...

I wonder if I got a new version of the ODN Navigator last night now that I see several folks were upgraded. I was already on 2.4.9_3, but an odd thing happened this morning so maybe there was a change. When we turned everything on, the TV just said "Unsupported Video Format". Couldn't change channels, power cycling the box didn't help either. Just a blank screen. What did do the trick was switching the TV input to the DVD player and then back to the DVR box. Never had that happen before.

Oh, and out of curiosity, what "local board" are you referring to? Sounds like something else worth following.

Sort of makes one wonder if there's a signal strength problem with that outlet. Anyway...

I wonder if I got a new version of the ODN Navigator last night now that I see several folks were upgraded. I was already on 2.4.9_3, but an odd thing happened this morning so maybe there was a change. When we turned everything on, the TV just said "Unsupported Video Format". Couldn't change channels, power cycling the box didn't help either. Just a blank screen. What did do the trick was switching the TV input to the DVD player and then back to the DVR box. Never had that happen before.

Oh, and out of curiosity, what "local board" are you referring to? Sounds like something else worth following.

I was the one having the problem. Sugarbowl suggested i move it to a different cable outlet and it worked.... It took the update and all was fine. Cable tech checked the original outlet and said signal was pretty close to perfect and was at a loss as to why it didnt work there.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13783561#post13783561

So far, I have had no major problems with the Navigator conversion. I noticed while I was watching one channel that the DVR suddenly switched to the channel it just finished recording. Later on, I found out that it just started recording another show at the same time the other show finished up. This made me think of this possibility for the "Channel not available" bug reported on this thread: One show is recording. Two recordings are scheduled to start recording at the same time the first show ends. Due to the overlap, two tuners are trying to record three shows, creating a tiny conflict that forces the DVR to cancel one recording. I have not encountered the "Channel not available" bug myself.

Could those who complain about that bug please confirm or refute my guess?

Could someone please define "manual recording"? Many people complain that this feature is missing, but when I hit the record button on my recently converted box, it just starts recording. I cannot help if I do not understand what is being written here.

Could someone please define "manual recording"? Many people complain that this feature is missing, but when I hit the record button on my recently converted box, it just starts recording. I cannot help if I do not understand what is being written here.

A "manual recording" is one where you determine everything (channel, start time, stop time, frequency of recording). You're not limited to the info provided by the guide.

Example, you have a series of half-hour programs on one channel that run back to back (like say, a marathon of the old black-white Rod Serling "Twilight Zone" programs on Sci-Fi channel). Instead of marking each individual program for recording, you could set a manual recording to "record all programs on channel XYZ (where XYZ is the channel number for the Sci-Fi channel) from 5:00 AM to 3:00 PM". Note that this covers any cases where the programs don't start/stop exactly according to the program guide.

Could someone please define "manual recording"? Many people complain that this feature is missing, but when I hit the record button on my recently converted box, it just starts recording. I cannot help if I do not understand what is being written here.

As above.

You press the record button and a dialog box appears with "Record this channel now" and "Create a manual recording" options.

TWC MidOhio Division SA8300HD WITH eSATA Drive connected

Received Navigator Email yesterday morning informing us of upgrade taking place this week to our 8300HD. Lo and behold this morning had Navigator on our box. After about 20 minutes of playing around with it have some good news....THE EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE STILL WORKS!!!!!

Speed of guide is actually equivalent to Passport (2.6.002 formerly). Channel changing works very good, not significantly delayed. Have my box connected HDMI to my Toshiba 42HP66 Plasma. Actually Navigator fixed a common problem I have with HDMI int he fact that when watching a HD channel the screen would flicker on and off between the picture and black. Doesn't do that anymore which to me is a 1000% improvement.

NO I DO NOT WORK FOR TW. My honest opinion is I like the new guide. Has a few items that need fixed but so did Passport. I really like that I can now pause live tv and rewind with an external hard drive connected. I missed that feature from when I didn't have the external drive.

Almost all of our recording settings transferred, the only ones that didnt were shows that were not on within the next week or so. I didn't loose any recordings, actually it showed me two that I had already deleted that were still on the external drive. Deleted them again, and it was happy.

Version info: 2.4.1-92 (Mt Huron)

I should have added that it may vary by market as these postings point out. Here, I pay nothing for the HD DVR (it is included in the cost off my digital cable package and the DVR fee stands at $7.95. Sounds like you guys are getting ripped two fold, once with the fee and twice with the Navigator guide!I think that the deal that you have is pretty rare around the country. TWC everywhere has service bundling, but equipment charges have generally always been left out of it. You seem to be saying you get lease of one box in your service bundle?

It'd be interesting to hear how others are being charged. Here in San Diego, CA, it's $7.95/month to lease any box (I think that they pretty much only buy HD boxes now), with an additional $9.95/month fee for "DVR Service". mfogarty5 says that they have the same box-lease/DVR-service fee structure in Charlotte, NC, though the numbers are a bit different. How are others being charged for these things?

This made me think of this possibility for the "Channel not available" bug reported on this thread: One show is recording. Two recordings are scheduled to start recording at the same time the first show ends. Due to the overlap, two tuners are trying to record three shows, creating a tiny conflict that forces the DVR to cancel one recording. I have not encountered the "Channel not available" bug myself.

I haven't had the "Channel not available" issue either, but I did have this happen the other night related to your scenario. Two shows (on different channels) were set to start recording while we were watching/recording the current channel. We got the (two) prompts informing us that recordings would begin in one minute and I accepted both. When the current show ended, the screen went black and there was an audible "popping" noise. It was as if the box were attempting to switch to one of the two new channels being recorded and couldn't. After a few seconds, I just manually switched to one of the two recording channels. We did not miss or lose any portion of the 3 recorded shows.

A "manual recording" is one where you determine everything (channel, start time, stop time, frequency of recording). You're not limited to the info provided by the guide.

Example, you have a series of half-hour programs on one channel that run back to back (like say, a marathon of the old black-white Rod Serling "Twilight Zone" programs on Sci-Fi channel). Instead of marking each individual program for recording, you could set a manual recording to "record all programs on channel XYZ (where XYZ is the channel number for the Sci-Fi channel) from 5:00 AM to 3:00 PM". Note that this covers any cases where the programs don't start/stop exactly according to the program guide.

I have never used such a capability on Passport because I misunderstood what one was in the beginning, so I will not be able to miss it.

RE: TWC Oceanic Hawaii Rates - for comparison purposes.

Our TWC offers a package deal (Surf Pack) as follows: DVR, Digital Service, & Roadrunner for 98.55 + 6.95 for HD Package* for a total of $114.41 + taxes. The HD package includes HD Net & Movie, HD Universe, Mojo, at no extra cost. I think this price is quite good when compared to ala carte offerings.

Our current HD offerings: Major networks; CNN, ESPN 1&2, ESPN News; FSN, Golf, Food, HGTV, History, APL, TLC, HDTHE, Science, NG, HDNet, Disney, LMN, A&E, TBS, TNT, Mojo, MTV, HDMovie, HDUni, plus a 24 hour HD Hawaii Scenery Channel with local features. Coming soon: USA & SciFi. Also HD Movies on demand are $6.95. They just started a free HD VOD with a few shows but growing.

We've been told that there are no plans to adopt Navigator - fingers & toes crossed. Still afraid to buy an expander drive but need it badly. We watch almost no SD anymore so the drive fills up fast. Plus I want to save more programs on the DVR because they are in HD - copying them to my DVD recorder in SD is a downer. The 50" panny plasma picture is fantastic with HD but SD programs look awful especially when zooming to eliminate the side bars.

As above.

You press the record button and a dialog box appears with "Record this channel now" and "Create a manual recording" options.

Do you now have this in Navigator? I thought this was only for Passport? I think in Navigator when you push that button, it just starts recording the channel that you are on. But I don't know if it just lasts for the duration of time in the grid. If it does, IMO that is not a true Manual Recording.

I do have a question though. In Passport's Quick Settings, if you remember that menu, there was an option to "Record This Channel" with a "Yes" or "No" prompt. Selecting Yes, would actually say REC on the box. Note that you weren't recording anything, unless you set up your VCR/DVD-R to record. However, the beauty of that feature was that the channel would be frozen until the recording was done unless you pressed "Exit." That way, you could do a manual recording, not be home, and than no one could accidentally change channels and screw up your recording without hitting Exit or waiting for the recording time-line to stop in the Channel Banner. I don't think Navigator offers this. Do you think it should?

Jack

Do you now have this in Navigator? I thought this was only for Passport? I think in Navigator when you push that button, it just starts recording the channel that you are on. But I don't know if it just lasts for the duration of time in the grid. If it does, IMO that is not a true Manual Recording.


I don't know if it's in the version of Navigator that's making the rounds here. I was just describing how manual recording worked in Passport.

Hey Tim...here's a quote off my local board: Mine used to do this everytime there was an update. If i hooked it up to a different cable outlet in the house, it would finish the update. Another guy on the thread was having the same problem as you tried another cable outlet and it actually finished the update,worked fine and he didn't lose anything on his box. Might be worth trying before you trade in the box and lose your recordings. Can't hurt right?

Thanks for the encouraging suggestion but my problem was with the amount of free space left on the DVR: even with an external 320 Gb drive, I was down to about 20 Gb of free space. The update started looping as it was about to convert the saved programs/settings. I was waiting for the call to tell me that I was going to be Navigatored so that I could hurry up and watch a few shows but it never came:(. I guess in the long run, it wasn't the end of the world for me (I still had episodes of Discovery Atlas that I hadn't watched:rolleyes:). On the other hand, I've lost all of those HD episodes of Made to Order that were playing on FoodHD before they started simulcasting. Wonder when FineLiving HD will be available here so that I can record those shows again. Does anyone have any experience adding larger external drives to a SA8300HD box that was converted to MDN? I only quickly glanced at xnappo's database for externals and saw a Navigator chart but wasn't sure if that was strictly for the SA8300HDC or for any Navigatored box.

...Does anyone have any experience adding larger external drives to a SA8300HD box that was converted to MDN? I only quickly glanced at xnappo's database for externals and saw a Navigator chart but wasn't sure if that was strictly for the SA8300HDC or for any Navigatored box.

My SA8300HD got "Navigatored" last night, I had an external 320Gig HD connected and it works identically to the way it did in Passport. Plug in, It recoginizes, formats, and reboots, then it's ready for use. No problems so far works pretty good.

For those of you who just got Navigatored, is it 2.4.1.93?

Could someone please define "manual recording"? What I would miss is setting up a recording for a show that will be on say three weeks from now. I go through the PBS magazine for the month and pre-set the things I want even though they are not in the guide yet. Manual that is being talked about is like a VCR. Date, channel, start, stop are set and can be done way in advance. /Dan

I woke up this morning and had the navigator loaded. I haven't played around with it much, but it looks like most of my series recordings survived the update. On the recorded list, some shows show a green icon and others show a red triangle with an exclamation point in it. What's up with that? I still have room on dvr. I can tell this will be a tiresome process figuring it all out.

I woke up this morning and had the navigator loaded. I haven't played around with it much, but it looks like most of my series recordings survived the update. On the recorded list, some shows show a green icon and others show a red triangle with an exclamation point in it. What's up with that? I still have room on dvr. I can tell this will be a tiresome process figuring it all out.

And something else bizarre happened when I got home and turned on the tv. The screen had a Time Warner logo at the top and 2 faces at the bottom. One face was smiling and the other frowning. Beneath the faces was the letter A on one and the letter B under the other. Like I was supposed to choose a face? I pressed the A and the B buttons to see what would happen and it just brought up the guide. Anyone else see this?

I first noticed a reboot shortly after 2 A.M., which was shortly after Navigator got loaded onto my 8300HD box. It just rebooted again. I thought the first one is just an anomaly, but the second one has got me worried. I just called tech support and they have stated that there is work being done on the cable lines. I am not sure this makes sense because Road Runner still works.

I first noticed a reboot shortly after 2 A.M., which was shortly after Navigator got loaded onto my 8300HD box. It just rebooted again. I thought the first one is just an anomaly, but the second one has got me worried. I just called tech support and they have stated that there is work being done on the cable lines. I am not sure this makes sense because Road Runner still works.

Do you have an eSATA drive?

xnappo

Do you have an eSATA drive?

xnappo

Nope. I do not have an eSATA drive.

By the way, I talked to a guy who works at a Time Warner Cable kiosk in the Cary Towne Center mall by phone and he stated that a couple of reboots was normal as software was loaded, but if it self-reboots again, go see him for a box swap.

OK, NCIS, which should be on at 8:00 tonight, has been preempted for local election coverage. The station is going to show it sometime between 3:00-4:30 AM. The only way that I can see to record it is to record whatever is suppose to be on at those times and hope I get it. Of course, if Navigator had a manual recording feature, this would not be a problem. If anyone can think of a better way, I'm open for suggestions.

I should have added that it may vary by market as these postings point out. Here, I pay nothing for the HD DVR (it is included in the cost off my digital cable package and the DVR fee stands at $7.95. Sounds like you guys are getting ripped two fold, once with the fee and twice with the Navigator guide!

There has been discussion that the cable providers were to supply the tuning adapters at no cost, but I doubt that highly. They will see an option to make money and take it.

Ben,

Some cable systems break out the cost of the box and some don't. Digital cable here in Charlotte is $67.75 which includes the cost of one box. If you elect not to receive a box, however, they will credit your bill for the cost of the box.

So if you elected to get a TiVo HD with a CableCard, you would pay about $59 for digital cable + $1.75 for a CableCard.

I'm willing to bet that your division is the same way, you just have to ask.

I got Navigator today and it's not the end of the world, but the first time I scrolled through the guide it rebooted. :rolleyes:

I've been Navigatored!

Both of my 8300HD boxes were 'upgraded' this morning at around 5:30am. So far, I can say that the MDN version on the 8300HD is MUCH faster than the ODN version on the 8300HDC. It's pretty close to Passport speeds with regard to menus, guides, info, etc. And, even a little faster at changing channels.

When I got home from work, and first turned the TV and STB on, I got an error msg that said my TV was not compatible. I thought, "Great, I'll have to dig around and switch out the HDMI for Component cables." But, after turning the TV off and on, no problems. (That is something that Passport occasionally did too, due to HDMI handshaking issues. Hopefully, it was a one time thing.)

My biggest complaint is that I lost about 30+ hours of recorded programming. From what I can tell, it looks like I mainly lost older episodes of The Daily Show and The Colbert Report. It appears that the standard recording option in Navigator is "Keep Last 7 Episodes", so during the conversion I lost everything beyond the 7 most recent saved episodes. Luckily, I don't think I had any other series programs with more than 7 episodes saved. I'm ticked about losing the shows, but I can try to watch them online and I do have a lot more free space in my drive now. (Hint to those not yet converted: If you have more than 7 episodes of a show saved via Series Recording, be sure to mark each episode in Passport as "Save Until Manually Deleted". If you leave it at "Save until Space is Needed", the conversion to Navigator will delete any shows beyond the most recent 7 episodes.)

I've been reviewing my series recording options, trying to get everything straightened out. Some series didn't make the conversion (as expected with shows not currently airing). Some shows were now set to record every airing, but I've been been able to re-set most to specific times. (I still wish that there was an option to choose specific air days, like Passport, and not just the times.)

I've re-adjusted all the Settings to my preferences. The one thing I don't like is not being able to adjust the SD channels to always appear in stretch(wide) mode. You can set ALL channels to normal, wide, and zoom, but I can't see how to differentiate between the SD and HD channels. But, if I leave it at Normal, it's easy to hit the "#"(pound) button on the remote to adjust the screen as needed.

I did cause a reboot after about 20 minutes of use. I had a recorded show paused, and was viewing the guide. After scrolling a few pages, it locked up and crashed. The 'warm' reboot was not much longer than a Passport reboot. About 1/3rd the time the 8300HDC reboots took, and there was no AIT msg or countdown on the box. Just a Mystro screen with countdown squares to fill.

The other 'hiccup' I had was that the guide would not load future days beyond 24 hours from the present (it only had data up to 7pm tomorrow). I tried several times, but it would just stay on the 'loading data' msg and not info would fill in. After I turned the box off for about 10 seconds, and back on, the guide loaded future days in about the same speed as Passport.

That's all my observations for now. It's not terrible; it's not great; but it is better than expected - so far. I sure hope my 8300HD boxes never die. <knocking on wood>

Oh, ya... PS: No email, postcard, or phone call received notifying me of the pending the update.

I got Navigator today and it's not the end of the world, but the first time I scrolled through the guide it rebooted. :rolleyes:

JINX! :cool:

Well... I switched my receiver to the 8300, hit Guide on the remote.... Bang... reboot. This isnt starting out well....

Looks like I will be swapping out the box tomorrow. When my mother started to rewind American Idol while it was recording, it quit recording.

Looks like I will be swapping out the box tomorrow. When my mother started to rewind American Idol while it was recording, it quit recording.

Not sure the box is the issue....

So if you elected to get a TiVo HD with a CableCard, you would pay about $59 for digital cable + $1.75 for a CableCard.You know, I was about to correct you and say that would be $3.50 a month for two CableCARDs, but then I remembered that TiVo HD actually works with a single M-Card (I'm using two M-Cards in my Series3, so $3.50/month is what I pay). So, my original calculation was a bit off, and it comes down to $17.90/month for use of an SA8300HD and $18.42/month to use a TiVo HD, if you divide the cost and 3-year service plan by 36 months ($16.66 + 1.75).

TiVo Series3 was designed to use a single M-Card, but the the final M-Card specification was delayed and TiVo decided to come to market with the Series3 before they could test the final revision with final rev M-Cards. As is, it can only use M-Cards in S-Card compatibility mode, and needs two of them. TiVo has looked into changing the firmware such that they can use a single M-Cards, and apparently it can be done, but the change is high-risk.

Quick Question:

How do I check to see if my external drive is working? I could get into the software diag via the remote but didn't see anything related to external drives. I tried the +- volume on the set but never got the mail icon

I got Navigator today and it's not the end of the world, but the first time I scrolled through the guide it rebooted. :rolleyes:

Same here, the guide froze and a couple of seconds later it rebooted.

Anybody know if there is a guide available for the new navigator software?

Not sure the box is the issue....

I cold booted the box after the TWC tech told me to do so and tried to replicate the conditions using a trashy show I have no interest in so I had nothing to lose due to a failure. I started recording, and then rewound, and let it play from the beginning. I then found out that the whole trashy show recorded cleanly. I don't think I will trade in the box just yet.

By the way, how do I find out my MDN version? I already know how to get to the diagnostic menu and can find the version page, but do not know which version number is the one this board is interested in.

Anybody know if there is a guide available for the new navigator software?There's one here (http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf) and one here (http://www.twcdigitalphone.com/MediaLibrary/4/22/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/MDN/NavigatorBook_lowres.pdf). Take your pick.

This thread needs a "Hints and Tips" post. (Of course, I'm not volunteering to write it, being principally a TiVo user :)).

I realized that what may have triggered the bug that causes the recording to abort upon playback is that my mother often goes to the recorded shows list and starts playing them from the beginning even while they are in the middle of being recorded. I will test this out.

I am pleasantly relieved to find that live program buffering appears to be functional in the MDN version of Navigator running on my 8300HD. As of last week, it was still not functional with the ODN version on the 8300HDC I returned.

Buffering didn't seem to be working at first, but later on I was able to confirm that the alternate tuner buffered ok, as well as the current tuner while watching a recorded program. However, unlike with Passport, there is still no buffering while the STB is turned off.

Anybody know if there is a guide available for the new navigator software?

In addition to the sites that Michael linked to above, be sure to check the website of your local TWC region. You should find several info pages, including a FAQ and maybe even a feedback form.

TWC Central Ohio Navigator website:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/MidOhio/products/cable/mdn/default.html

I realized that what may have triggered the bug that causes the recording to abort upon playback is that my mother often goes to the recorded shows list and starts playing them from the beginning even while they are in the middle of being recorded. I will test this out.

Looks like my tests failed to turn up the bug that aborted the recording of Idol. Maybe my mother may have typed in the select key at the wrong time. When selecting something that is in the middle of being recorded in the list, the first option highlighted is the one to cancel the recording. In Passport Echo, the option that is first selected is the one to play the recording. Maybe this is what aborted the recording.

Same here, the guide froze and a couple of seconds later it rebooted.

2nd reboot just now at 7:12am while watching live tv. Same box with Passport never rebooted.

Time to call TWC.

I realized that what may have triggered the bug that causes the recording to abort upon playback is that my mother often goes to the recorded shows list and starts playing them from the beginning even while they are in the middle of being recorded. I will test this out.

I used to see this problem with the previous ODN version, but have not encountered it since the move to 2.4.9_3.

jnv11, I believe on Navigator, if your mother selected the show from the list, then hit select a second time, it would cancel the recording. I'm not at home now, but if memory serves me, the first choice (and thus default) option when selecting a show is "cancel recording" so if you hit select again, it cancels. ....but again I'm not home and can't check it out now.

I am pleasantly relieved to find that live program buffering appears to be functional in the MDN version of Navigator running on my 8300HD. As of last week, it was still not functional with the ODN version on the 8300HDC I returned.

Buffering didn't seem to be working at first, but later on I was able to confirm that the alternate tuner buffered ok, as well as the current tuner while watching a recorded program. However, unlike with Passport, there is still no buffering while the STB is turned off.

Starts to make one wonder if some of the buffering issues are with the hardware/firmware moreso than Navigator. That saying that ODN Navigator might not have problems or deficiencies with regard to buffering, but maybe it has something to do with the "C" hardware too.

Is there such a thing as an SA8300HDC NOT running Navigator that folks have experience with? I thought we'd heard from folks that had trouble with this box even without Navigator (Comcast users maybe?), but don't recall if buffering was ever mentioned.

Looks like my tests failed to turn up the bug that aborted the recording of Idol. Maybe my mother may have typed in the select key at the wrong time. When selecting something that is in the middle of being recorded in the list, the first option highlighted is the one to cancel the recording. In Passport Echo, the option that is first selected is the one to play the recording. Maybe this is what aborted the recording.

I never found the bug to be "reproducible" in a consistent way. It would start to happen, you'd reboot the box, and it would work again (for a while) - again, with the older version of ODN Navigator.

One thing I think did bite me once was I was watching a show as it was recording and rather than hitting pause or switching channels, I pressed Stop. That ended up canceling the recording (and I don't recall getting a confirmation prompt).

Another thing to watch for is that if you notice there's no growing yellow bar when you press info, then there's no buffering going on and weird things will start happening. When you notice it, it's best to just reboot as soon as you can.

Is there such a thing as an SA8300HDC NOT running Navigator that folks have experience with? I thought we'd heard from folks that had trouble with this box even without Navigator (Comcast users maybe?), but don't recall if buffering was ever mentioned.Absolutely, even TW customers. TW still uses SARA on many of their systems. And they are using SARA version 1.90.xx.xx on the SA8300HDC boxes there. There have been some problems reported with those boxes, but nothing like with Crapigator. Also the SA8300HDC works fine with the external drive, just as the SA8300HD does with SARA.

. On the recorded list, some shows show a green icon and others show a red triangle with an exclamation point in it. What's up with that?

i was wondering about those also.
the manual says that the green circle with the white star (or diamond) in it means the program is set to do not delete.

the circle with a line through it means there is a recording conflict.

i found nothing in the manual about the red one with the exclamation point.

Starts to make one wonder if some of the buffering issues are with the hardware/firmware moreso than Navigator. That saying that ODN Navigator might not have problems or deficiencies with regard to buffering, but maybe it has something to do with the "C" hardware too.

Is there such a thing as an SA8300HDC NOT running Navigator that folks have experience with? I thought we'd heard from folks that had trouble with this box even without Navigator (Comcast users maybe?), but don't recall if buffering was ever mentioned.
Have 8300HDC with SARA 1.90.5.110. Yes I do have some buffering problems on occasion. Usually it happens when there's a lot of activity going on - like recordings in progress while I'm making IPG selections & requests for info. Overall the box & Software do a great job so no complaints. As a preventive measure, I do a hard reboot every week or two & that has elminatied most problems. It's better to reboot when convenient to my recording schedule than wait until there's a problem and I'm trying to record programs.

Another thing to watch for is that if you notice there's no growing yellow bar when you press info, then there's no buffering going on and weird things will start happening. When you notice it, it's best to just reboot as soon as you can.I don't think this is good advice. We already know that ODN stops buffering when it enter sleep mode. In this case, you don't need to reboot; just pressing the info button wakes it up and resumes buffering.

i was wondering about those also.
the manual says that the green circle with the white star (or diamond) in it means the program is set to do not delete.

the circle with a line through it means there is a recording conflict.

i found nothing in the manual about the red one with the exclamation point.

Thanks :-) So far so good for me. I haven't found anything that's glaringly bad with it. It will take a couple of days for me to get used to the new look and feel, but otherwise, I'm not crushed I have it now. It sounds like they've done a lot of work on it in the last 6 to 12 months. I would like to see 14 days of programming instead of 7, but I didn't have that with Passport, so no biggee. I did notice something odd with the picture orientation. On HD channels I set the picture to stretch when the show isn't broadcast in HD. If you play back that show and fast forward through the commercials, when you hit play again, the picture reverts back to the black bars.

2nd reboot just now at 7:12am while watching live tv. Same box with Passport never rebooted.

Time to call TWC.

3rd reboot, opened a ticket with TWC (on hold a LONG time due to increased call activity ...). I also emailed my contact at city hall who helped me previously.

Jim

I found out what happened. It was bad user interface design that confused my mother and even me, a computer geek who is usually able to handle user interfaces that befuddle many other people, for a little while. My mother was confused by the interface that shows up whenever "Cancel Recording" was selected. It is easy to get confused thinking that the select button or A button aborted the "Cancel Recording" operation instead of the recording, and the C button would continue the "Cancel Recording" operation. Instead, I would have drawn those buttons in the text field above with clear explanations that leave no room for ambiguity because any short description would be ambiguous.

My mother was basically confused by a badly worded interface. This caused Idol to be aborted mid-recording.

After unhooking the coax from my box since Monday to avoid the conversion and watching prerecorded stuff only, my curiosity finally got the better of me.

"What would happen if I plug it in now?"

So I brought up the Passport guide and loosely held the cable in. The live video reappeared and for about 30 seconds nothing happened. Then I noticed the time changed and thought maybe the guide would update, but no. I saw a code flash across the display and yanked the cable.

But I was too late.

I'd been Navigated. :(

After several attempts to reboot with my fingers crossed, all I could get was the LED flashing random numbers hXXX. Eventually I gave in and jacked the box back into the evil empire and watched the mutation take hold.

The process starts with a download sequence represented by a countdown from about r380F to zero. That took about 8 minutes. The box reboots with "UPGRDNG" or something similar flashing in the display. Another reboot and you get the "Mystro Initiallizing" screen and the dancing LED dashes. (Sadly I thought the LED display was quite entertaining). After 5 minutes another reboot, this time followed by a new screen - "Now converting your video and settings to a new format. Do not turn off your box. If this message persists after 30 minutes call customer service." A few minutes later another reboot, another initializing screen and then it was over.

Passport was dead. :(

My first impression is the same as it was when I saw the demo screens. It looks like a low budget effort with a poor eye for IPG design. The menus and guide are flat and the type is all the same weight and font with no emphasis to make any information stand out. The Info banner for example - channel number and station ident are the same color, weight and size and the info in the time bar is also the same size and weight.

I already hate the IPG. Previously when you scroll right through the channel using the cursor you would jump to the next program. Now if a show overruns the half hour you jump to the same show but displayed only as an ellipsis. So you have to push twice to get to the next show.

The background color is too strong so the reverse type doesn't stand out and the highlight notifications have to be turned to a dirty color to avoid the whole thing flashing. Red on bright blue? Yeah, great color choice there TWC.

The only good thing about the IPG is the "show favorites at the top" feature.

Can't wait until all those exciting new features like Caller ID, Start Over, Quick Clips, Look Back and the quick menu get added. You know, like they advertised as "coming soon" on the TWC NC site back in January 2007. On the same page they said "Navigator is one of the many exciting new features coming your way."

Well, it's taken 16 months to get one of those "exciting new features" here.

Also the SA8300HDC works fine with the external drive, just as the SA8300HD does with SARA.

It sounds like the 8300HD's do pretty well with the latest version of MDN Navigator and external drives. The 8300HDC's with ODN Navigator seem to suffer from the "sleep" issue when used with external drives. I plan to wait awhile before trying an external drive with my Navigator-based HDC until the prognosis improves.

Checking Navigator Software Version and Accessing Diagnostics.

Software version is listed on the "Software Versions" page. Page #14 in the 28 page guide. Page #? in the 9 page guide.

MDN=Mystro Digital Navigator ODN=OCAP Digital Navigator

e.g.
Res: 2.4.1-92
Host: MDN 2.4



Remote commands:

Hold down select until mail icon appears, then press down on cursor pad to access multi-page diagnostics. (HD version - 28 pages. HDC Version 9 pages)

Press A, Settings, List or Guide while in diagnostics to switch to text on black background and current channel PiP.

Press select to adjust transparency of diagnostics text overlay.

Press and hold "Last" to display the Navigator version number on screen. Power off or press and hold again to remove the version number.



STB Commands:

Hold down select until mail icon appears, then press VOL- to access multi-page diagnostics.

HDC Hardware Diagnostics (16 pages):
Hold both the Vol+ and Vol- buttons until the mail icon flashes, then press Ch+.


Other Commands:

Holding VOL+ and VOL- and pressing Info on the front panel will reboot the box.

For those of you who just got Navigatored, is it 2.4.1.93?


Nope 2.4.1.92

Nope 2.4.1.92

Same here in Columbus: 2.4.1-92

After returning to my beach house I played with Navigator some more.I like the search engine a lot and the favorite first feature.However I feel Sara is still the superior IPG.Sara to me belive it are not has a better look to it.Navigator is not that bad but the blue gets annoying after a whie.My Sara version has SDV,Startover,Quick Clips,Caller ID on TV and all the latest Sara recording options.Sara may lack a proper search engine but my 1.89.17.1 has all the other comeing soon features Navigator is advertiseing plus being dead reliable.

What is the latest on being able to use an external hard drive with the 8300HD? Does Time Warner allow this in all their areas? What drive is recommended, and are there instructions on how to hook it up? Saving HD shows really seems to fill up the 8300's internal drive quickly.

Since Navigator has hit the Triangle NC area, is it now coming to the Triad area or will TWC keep SARA as is?

What is the latest on being able to use an external hard drive with the 8300HD? Does Time Warner allow this in all their areas? What drive is recommended, and are there instructions on how to hook it up? Saving HD shows really seems to fill up the 8300's internal drive quickly.Judging by posts in this thread, it seems to work fine with legacy 8300HDs running MDN, but has a few issues with 8300HDCs running ODN.

I haven't seen any mention of external drives in the scant official TWC Digital Navigator documentation. I've never heard anyone say that TWC supported the use external drives in their local system, even in systems using SARA, for which the use of external drives is fully documented in Scientific Atlanta's end-user manuals.

Well, after I deleted and re-entered all of my series recordings, things seem to be working fine. No reboots yet.

I like the FAV Channel option with the guide a lot, as I don't have to go hunting for a block of 10 channels I get surrounded by a hundred I don't.

I guess my biggest concern is that I miss the ability to specify series recordings by channel as well as time. That seems like a pretty basic feature, and I don't know why they left it out.

So do you have to have Sara to use the external drive, or can you use it with Navigator? Can anyone recommend a drive that works for sure?

While the FAV channel option sounds nice, I still wish it had the ability to add and delete channels like the satellite guides. Or even a show only HD versions of the channel like DirecTV. If DirecTV had a unit with a QAM tuner, then I'd have the option of keeping my basic cable for locals and getting the extra HD. OTA here can prove unreliable at times.

So do you have to have Sara to use the external drive, or can you use it with Navigator? Can anyone recommend a drive that works for sure?


There is a whole forum about using external drives and the first post has a list of drives that work. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=516559

I am using one with my 8300HD running Navigator and have had no problems. There have been reports on the forum of boxes hanging up when it enters sleep mode with an external drive connected.

The only acknowledgement I've seen from TW about external drives is when they sent out info about the Navigator conversion they said that if you used an external drive via eSata to make sure that it was connected.

My SA8300 HD, previously running Passport, received the much dreaded Navigator upgrade this past Monday.:eek: Contrary to TWC's notice in the mail that I would receive a call 24 hours in advance as well as an email, there was no prior warning.

I currently have a Panasonic HDTV connected to the DVR via HDMI as well as a Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder which is connected via coax. Prior to the upgrade, I was archiving recorded shows to DVD by playing them back when my wife and I retire for the evening and switching off just the TV. With Navigator, as soon as I turn off the TV, the DVR pauses the program. Last night I unplugged the HDMI cable to my TV and was able to record (I suspected this was an HDMI anomaly). Tonight I'll try the component cables to see if things function the old way though I only have one component connection on the TV and hate to dedicate that to the DVR. It seems to me over the last two years that TWC goes out of their way to avoid admission of any support of HDMI even though their units have the connectors.

Has anyone else experienced this?

Gene

I've experienced plenty of HDMI snafus, so much so that I went back to component cables. The biggest issue I've had is that when changing resolutions the HDMI connection loses the picture on occasion. I thought this was due to my AVR, but I went directly from the SA8300HD into my projector and had the same issues. It's either the HDCP or just another screwy type behavior of the HDMI output. Since switching to component cables, I've had zero issues. I can pin the issue on the cable box because my DVD player is hooked via HDMI with custom resolution settings and when it switches over it never loses the picture.

I don't think this is good advice. We already know that ODN stops buffering when it enter sleep mode. In this case, you don't need to reboot; just pressing the info button wakes it up and resumes buffering.

We must be talking about different situations because when this happens to me (and it hasn't in quite a while), it has nothing to do with sleep mode. You can press all the buttons you like, but buffering does not restart. Not even by changing the channels. All you'll see in the info bar is that the marker line is moving and there is never any yellow portion (no matter how long you continue to watch).

We must be talking about different situations because when this happens to me (and it hasn't in quite a while), it has nothing to do with sleep mode. You can press all the buttons you like, but buffering does not restart. Not even by changing the channels. All you'll see in the info bar is that the marker line is moving and there is never any yellow portion (no matter how long you continue to watch).

Do you by any chance have an external drive connected? I think this is called "trick play" and is disabled with an external hard drive.

Or make that a new undocumented feature.

We subscribe to DW TV, a German Language channel. My wife is a German teacher and sometimes copies shows to DVR and then edits and copies over to tape or DVD to use in the classroom.

After the conversion to Navigator, everything seems OK and DW can be viewed just fine live. Any recording goes through, but plays back with no sound. I just had a TW tech out last night and he confirmed it by hooking up another 8300 box and duplicated the problem.

Apparently, we are the first to report it. I don't know if it is the same with any other premium foreign language channel.

They are now checking to see if it is a problem at the head end in transmission or with the Navigator software, but it has to be Navigator since it works fine with Passport.

the volume on my recorded shows is lower than live TV. when i watch a recorded show i have to turn the volume up twice as far to get the same level of sound.
anyone else ran into this or have a solution?

Do you by any chance have an external drive connected? I think this is called "trick play" and is disabled with an external hard drive.It's been reported that trick play works with Navigator with or without an external drive.

the volume on my recorded shows is lower than live TV. when i watch a recorded show i have to turn the volume up twice as far to get the same level of sound.
anyone else ran into this or have a solution?I've never heard a difference between live and recorded volume. You might try changing your Audio Range to Narrow. Settings>Quick Settings>Devices>Audio Range.

Or make that a new undocumented feature.

We subscribe to DW TV, a German Language channel. My wife is a German teacher and sometimes copies shows to DVR and then edits and copies over to tape or DVD to use in the classroom.

After the conversion to Navigator, everything seems OK and DW can be viewed just fine live. Any recording goes through, but plays back with no sound. I just had a TW tech out last night and he confirmed it by hooking up another 8300 box and duplicated the problem.

Apparently, we are the first to report it. I don't know if it is the same with any other premium foreign language channel.

They are now checking to see if it is a problem at the head end in transmission or with the Navigator software, but it has to be Navigator since it works fine with Passport.How are you connecting your DVD? I have an ReplayTV DVR attached to my 8300HDC and the sound records just fine.

I've never heard a difference between live and recorded volume. You might try changing your Audio Range to Narrow. Settings>Quick Settings>Devices>Audio Range.


before i posted i tried changing between them, recording a few shows each time. the issue was still there.

i seem to remember having a similar issue with passport. IIRC there was a setting in passport that had an adjustable recording volume. but i don't see it in navigator.

i cant think of any reason for the volume to be different.

Since Navigator has hit the Triangle NC area, is it now coming to the Triad area or will TWC keep SARA as is?

I had heard a while back that Greensboro was to be one of the first Sara areas Navigated.The reason I was told was that we have all the current features on our SARA that they wanted to add to Navigator and (schivers)we might be beta testers to see how they work with Navigator.Since then I have heard nothing so who really knows. Sara 1.89.17.1 here

I've never heard a difference between live and recorded volume. You might try changing your Audio Range to Narrow. Settings>Quick Settings>Devices>Audio Range.

The Menus in ODN and MDN are a little different. I remember that ODN had a Devices menu, but there is no such menu in MDN. There is a menu for Audio, but I'm at work now and cannot recall specifics. You do probably want to have the Range set to Narrow. There's also a choice for variable or fixed sound. If you choose variable, you can adjust the volume on the STB using the volume buttons on the box. That may or may not help.


Before i posted i tried changing between them, recording a few shows each time. the issue was still there. I seem to remember having a similar issue with passport. IIRC there was a setting in passport that had an adjustable recording volume. but i don't see it in navigator. I cant think of any reason for the volume to be different.

Were these recordings with the different volumes recorded before of after the conversion to Navigator? If prior, perhaps they were coded at a different volume level that the current settings. If afterwards, I also cannot think of a reason for volumes on recordings to be different now, unless the Audio settings have changed since the day they were recorded.

So, I mentioned earlier that the program buffering seems to be working on my 8300HD with MDN, whereas it was not working on my 8300HDC with ODN. After two days with MDN, I can still say it works, but I can't say that it's stable enough to rely on. :(

Yesterday, I was fairly quickly zipping through and deleting a few recorded programs. Everything was fine after the first couple of shows, but, after watching and deleting the 3rd or 4th one, the buffer on the live channel disappeared. It was definitely gone as I couldn't back up the programming on the live channel and there was no yellow bar. However, I played a few other recorded programs - sometime deleting when finished and sometimes pressing the 'Live' button on the remote - and I didn't seem to have any more buffering problems the rest of the night.

One improvement over Passport does appear to be that you can extend the guide (load data) additional days and not lose the buffer on either tuner. Unlike with Passport, where one of the tuners would have to be re-set after adding days to the guide. Whether that's gonna be 'rock solid' stable, or also occasionally lose the buffer is yet to be seen. :rolleyes:

How are you connecting your DVD? I have an ReplayTV DVR attached to my 8300HDC and the sound records just fine.

How I connect the DVD is irrelevant. I don't even get that far. This is a problem with just this channel. DVR recordings on the 8300 ON THIS CHANNEL ONLY, have no sound. All other channels record fine. Since it passes through live broadcasts OK, I guess she could record directly to the DVD recorder, but she uses the DVR to edit the shows during playback to the DVD recorder. Often only 5 or 10 minutes of a news or current events show wind up on her DVD.

How I connect the DVD is irrelevant. I don't even get that far. This is a problem with just this channel. DVR recordings on the 8300 ON THIS CHANNEL ONLY, have no sound. All other channels record fine. Since it passes through live broadcasts OK, I guess she could record directly to the DVD recorder, but she uses the DVR to edit the shows during playback to the DVD recorder. Often only 5 or 10 minutes of a news or current events show wind up on her DVD.

I just got a call from TW support and they confirm it is a problem with Navigator software and are assigning an engineer to it.

I only bothered to post it here because... hey, this is a thread on Navigator. Someone else, somewhere may be having the same problem.

the volume on my recorded shows is lower than live TV. when i watch a recorded show i have to turn the volume up twice as far to get the same level of sound.
anyone else ran into this or have a solution?

I addition to the suggestion of adjusting the audio range to narrow (or at least not wide), you may be adjusting the volume of only the TV with the remote. Make sure the volume on the cable box is also on a higher setting. Walk up to the box and push the +volume button until the set box volume is on the highest setting.

It's been reported that trick play works with Navigator with or without an external drive.

That is my experience as well. I don't have one of the newer cable-card 8300's (don't they call those HDC models?), just the "older" SA8300HD. Used to have Passport.

Interestingly, another odd Navigator bug is that while trick play is back on DVR's with expansion drives, the ability to FF or REW in 15 minute chunks by holding down the FF or REW buttons is gone! Works just fine on my other 8300 which doesn't have an expansion drive.

That is my experience as well. I don't have one of the newer cable-card 8300's (don't they call those HDC models?), just the "older" SA8300HD. Used to have Passport.

Interestingly, another odd Navigator bug is that while trick play is back on DVR's with expansion drives, the ability to FF or REW in 15 minute chunks by holding down the FF or REW buttons is gone! Works just fine on my other 8300 which doesn't have an expansion drive.

That works fine with my SA8300HDC with eSATA drive connected.

On a related note: in my case, the sleep mode kicks in real early; if I have the box off even for only half an hour with nothing recording, it will lock up and need a reboot; I thought teh other people were getting 2-3 hours. I hope this gets fixed; I don't know how much of this 24/7 heavy use can the hard drive take.

A very important question about Navigator Updates:

Do they have to be approved by the regional offices in New York and than are systematically downloaded down the pipeline with the head office telling TWC states when to expect an update? OR

Can each individual TWC state decide independently what features to add to Navigator on a local office timeline? With regards to features, is it true that some customers in Lincoln Nebraska get features that other subs don't get elsewhere and if so what are the features? It is interesting to see how divisions are alike and different with this software.

Jack

That works fine with my SA8300HDC with eSATA drive connected.

Maybe it works in the HDC boxes but not the HD boxes. I know mine doesn't.

On a related note: in my case, the sleep mode kicks in real early; if I have the box off even for only half an hour with nothing recording, it will lock up and need a reboot; I thought the other people were getting 2-3 hours. I hope this gets fixed; I don't know how much of this 24/7 heavy use can the hard drive take.

Again, maybe that's a problem only with the HDC boxes; I've had only 2 reboots, both the first day, and it's been fine since as I haven't turned it off since. And hard drives are made to run 24/7; no biggie to them. My expansion drive has essentially done that for 2 years now, and the internal drives, at least with Passport, ran constantly buffering away on both tuners as well.

The Menus in ODN and MDN are a little different. I remember that ODN had a Devices menu, but there is no such menu in MDN. There is a menu for Audio, but I'm at work now and cannot recall specifics. You do probably want to have the Range set to Narrow. There's also a choice for variable or fixed sound. If you choose variable, you can adjust the volume on the STB using the volume buttons on the box. That may or may not help.




Were these recordings with the different volumes recorded before of after the conversion to Navigator? If prior, perhaps they were coded at a different volume level that the current settings. If afterwards, I also cannot think of a reason for volumes on recordings to be different now, unless the Audio settings have changed since the day they were recorded.

thanks guys for the replies
the recordings were made just after being navigatored. mines MDN. i had posted that i tried changing the audio range and there was no difference. i don't know if i was doing something wrong or if a reboot i had yesterday changed something. but after the reboot while watching a recording i was able change it to narrow and noticed a huge increase in volume level .
i believe the reboot fixed it. because before when i was in a live show or recording and changed between normal and narrow there was no sound difference. but now there is a difference. also, even with it set to normal wouldn't that effect both the live and the recording. simply being set to normal shouldn't cause live to be loud and recorded to be soft. both should have been soft. anyway, its fixed now and I'm happy.

Do you by any chance have an external drive connected? I think this is called "trick play" and is disabled with an external hard drive.

No I don't which is why I said I don't think my case had anything to do with the sleep mode problem. Again, I don't believe I've seen this problem occur since the 2.4.9_3 release of Navigator.

I just got a call from TW support and they confirm it is a problem with Navigator software and are assigning an engineer to it.

Holy smokes! I think this is the first time I've heard of TW support acknowledging a problem with Navigator much less say they've actually assigned someone to the problem.

Sorry, frame advance is gone.

Why? Why take out features that people liked?

Does anyone know any 3rd party hardware compatible with TWC DVR service that support frame advance?

Why? Why take out features that people liked?




Because "They Think Like We Think"! That has got to be the most ridiculous slogan they could have come up with! If they thought like we think, they would have commissioned Tivo to design cable specific hardware for DVR customers to sub to. I honestly feel that trying to "make" or force software to run on equipment that is outdated and wasn't designed for is half the problem here. Time Warner should embrace their tech savvy subs and offer them (us) a solution that we want and works. I bet most of us are willing to pay the extra for a solid DVR solution.

Why? Why take out features that people liked?


According to Diana of TWC fame, some of the Passport code or design used patented or copyrighted elements. I forget which it was but that was why Navigator doesn't work or look exactly Passport.

That might also explain why the timecode is in such a dumb place on the time bar progress bar.

Because "They Think Like We Think"! That has got to be the most ridiculous slogan they could have come up with! If they thought like we think, they would have commissioned Tivo to design cable specific hardware for DVR customers to sub to. I honestly feel that trying to "make" or force software to run on equipment that is outdated and wasn't designed for is half the problem here. Time Warner should embrace their tech savvy subs and offer them (us) a solution that we want and works. I bet most of us are willing to pay the extra for a solid DVR solution.

Those of (us) who whould be willing to pay for "extra" TIVO like features is such a small number, that TW doesn't care about (us)

Because "They Think Like We Think"! That has got to be the most ridiculous slogan they could have come up with! If they thought like we think, they would have commissioned Tivo to design cable specific hardware for DVR customers to sub to. I honestly feel that trying to "make" or force software to run on equipment that is outdated and wasn't designed for is half the problem here. Time Warner should embrace their tech savvy subs and offer them (us) a solution that we want and works. I bet most of us are willing to pay the extra for a solid DVR solution.I don't think that there's that much wrong with the hardware. I had an Explorer 8000HD for two years, running Passport Echo. Except for a few really buggy versions of Passport along the way, it was pretty damn reliable. The problems seemed to be all software. The Explorer 8300HD is pretty much the same design, with more faster processors and more memory, and the 8300HDC is more of the same, with a CableCARD slot (and TWC has been ordering these with twice as much memory as the the non-"C" models, so that they can run OCAP).

More than anything, the problem is the software.

I don't think that there's that much wrong with the hardware. I had an Explorer 8000HD for two years, running Passport Echo. Except for a few really buggy versions of Passport along the way, it was pretty damn reliable. The problems seemed to be all software. The Explorer 8300HD is pretty much the same design, with more faster processors and more memory, and the 8300HDC is more of the same, with a CableCARD slot (and TWC has been ordering these with twice as much memory as the the non-"C" models, so that they can run OCAP).

More than anything, the problem is the software.

I have read evidence that has contradicted this. People running SARA on the 8300HDC boxes often complain of many of the same problems ODN Navigator runs into. Second, these boxes seem extremely sensitive to heat. Third, Scientific Atlanta demonstrated an 8550HDC running ODN Navigator at the last Consumer Electronics Show without any problems. My guess is that in the haste to meet the FCC's separable security deadline, Scientific Atlanta may have put a CableCARD slot above something that generates a lot of heat, causing it to not cool down properly; and that quality control did not have the time to catch this problem due to the FCC deadline. Fourth, later versions of this box seem more stable, which means that engineers have been debugging this box after it has been released.

3rd reboot, opened a ticket with TWC (on hold a LONG time due to increased call activity ...). I also emailed my contact at city hall who helped me previously.

Jim

A 4th reboot happened before TWC came out on Thursday. Two techs came by and really didn't find anything except a couple of connections that were "questionable". They wanted to swap out the box because "some boxes don't take the upgrade well" but I said I'd prefer to see if what they fixed worked (I've been through the box exchange 5 times already and I wasn't looking forward to re-setting up the box and losing my recordings.)

They left and another TWC truck passed by the house about 30 minutes later and maybe 15 minutes after that my cable and internet went out for a couple of minutes. I suspect that something in my neighborhood got fixed.

Things have been good since Thursday.

i just received navigator and the one thing i miss is the ability to delete channels i never watch. i went through all the menus and sub menus and only going into the favorites helps with the program guide. anybody else notice this?

Another Navigator note I've discovered: The "instant replay" button that supposed to jump you back 8 seconds, and which did just that in Passport, now only jumps you back 3 seconds. Yet the Navigator printed user guide, available from the TWC websites, still says 8 seconds. That nobody seems to have caught this easy-to-fix bug is astonishing to me. That and the REW button screwup are the most baffling to me that nothing has been done about fixing them, and the most annoying thing about Navigator I've discovered so far as I haven't had the rebooting issue some have.

At the risk of committing the tacky act of quoting my own post, I've done some more testing on the rewind functions in Navigator and here's what I've found. I cross-posted this in the other Navigator-wish-list thread to catch anyone who might be interested:

The first REW speed, with the double arrow, will dump you back into the program stream about 7 seconds ahead of the last frame you saw in rewind.

The second REW speed, with an arrow and a "2", will dump you back into the program stream about 14 seconds ahead of the last frame you saw in rewind.

The third REW speed, with an arrow and a "3", will dump you back into the program stream about 34 seconds ahead of the last frame you saw in rewind.

Jumping forward in the program stream up to half a minute when you're trying to rewind and see something again is just ludicrous. Passport always dropped you back into the stream right at the last frame you saw no matter what the REW speed. And Passport had another gear, a 4x speed too, so you could really zip through a program if you wanted.

And the "Instant Replay" jump-back button only takes you back about 3 seconds instead of the advertised 8 seconds, which Passport also did properly.

Of course, one could argue that it's all kind of a moot point since Navigator has also taken away the "seconds" portion of the status-bar counter on the digital timer for recorded shows, and the entire digital counter for buffered programing, so you kind of have to wild-ass-guess if you're trying to back up to a certain point, which in Passport, you could easily do if you had noted the time on the status bar. :rolleyes:

How difficult would it be to address these issues? Are they even aware of them, and these other problems listed in this and the other TWC Navigator thread? Would it be helpful to compile a list of this stuff and send it to TWC, if only we could find out who might actually be able to guarantee somebody in charge will at least read it??

This crap is just too easy to fix. Navigator has been out in the field for awhile now. How did this stuff get past their quality control and why isn't it being addressed now?

What are the Navigator FF & REW speeds? My SARA 1.90 offers 4 speeds: 4x 8x 32x 128x. Still hoping they keep SARA here.

What are the Navigator FF & REW speeds? My SARA 1.90 offers 4 speeds: 4x 8x 32x 128x. Still hoping they keep SARA here.

Only the first 3, I suspect - 32x would be the top speed.

Jumping forward in the program stream up to half a minute when you're trying to rewind and see something again is just ludicrous. Passport always dropped you back into the stream right at the last frame you saw no matter what the REW speed. And Passport had another gear, a 4x speed too, so you could really zip through a program if you wanted.


I discovered this to my chagrin the other day. It's one of the most stupid UI decisions I've ever seen. You can see how TWC are thinking though:

"The users are probably really slow to react and just like FF might go past it and then have to FF again."

It's rewind, you idiots. You don't want to start watching from after the point you've seen during the rewind because it will never get to the frame you were looking for by just letting it play!

Only the first 3, I suspect - 32x would be the top speed.

I think your guess is a little optimistic. ;)

My best estimates at Navigator FF speeds are:
1 = 4x speed
2 = 8x speed
3 = 16x speed (ie: 4 seconds = 1 minute)

EDIT: I tried counting today whenever I was Fast Forwarding. I think the speeds are a bit faster than my estimates above, but still significantly slower than Passport speeds. If they would speed up each level about 50%, I'd be happy.

I think the top speed on Passport was 32x (ie: about 2 seconds per minute). I really miss that top speed. :mad:

My parents have DishNetwork, and their DVR is about 5 years old. It's top two speeds were 60x (ie: 1 sec = 1 minute) and 300x (ie: 1 sec = 5 minutes). It used to actually run that fast, but for the last year or so it's actually speeds have been slower due to some software changes..

At the risk of committing the tacky act of quoting my own post, I've done some more testing on the rewind functions in Navigator and here's what I've found. I cross-posted this in the other Navigator-wish-list thread to catch anyone who might be interested:

The first REW speed, with the double arrow, will dump you back into the program stream about 7 seconds ahead of the last frame you saw in rewind.

The second REW speed, with an arrow and a "2", will dump you back into the program stream about 14 seconds ahead of the last frame you saw in rewind.

The third REW speed, with an arrow and a "3", will dump you back into the program stream about 34 seconds ahead of the last frame you saw in rewind.

Jumping forward in the program stream up to half a minute when you're trying to rewind and see something again is just ludicrous. Passport always dropped you back into the stream right at the last frame you saw no matter what the REW speed. And Passport had another gear, a 4x speed too, so you could really zip through a program if you wanted.

And the "Instant Replay" jump-back button only takes you back about 3 seconds instead of the advertised 8 seconds, which Passport also did properly.

Of course, one could argue that it's all kind of a moot point since Navigator has also taken away the "seconds" portion of the status-bar counter on the digital timer for recorded shows, and the entire digital counter for buffered programing, so you kind of have to wild-ass-guess if you're trying to back up to a certain point, which in Passport, you could easily do if you had noted the time on the status bar. :rolleyes:

How difficult would it be to address these issues? Are they even aware of them, and these other problems listed in this and the other TWC Navigator thread? Would it be helpful to compile a list of this stuff and send it to TWC, if only we could find out who might actually be able to guarantee somebody in charge will at least read it??

This crap is just too easy to fix. Navigator has been out in the field for awhile now. How did this stuff get past their quality control and why isn't it being addressed now?

For me,

The FF-RR features haven't been too bad on conventional DVR channels. But watching any movies or On Demand programs they are horrible!!! Sometimes when you FF, it will start zooming erratically through the movie before you even know what is happening. Instant Replay sucks on MOD, because as mentioned above, you only get about a three second skip back instead of eight. Perhaps the VOD FF/Reward Instant Replay is different technology-wise than the conventional DVR methods. But the accuracy of this function in MOD mode needs a great deal of big time work. It's terrible!

Jack

Perhaps the VOD FF/Reward Instant Replay is different technology-wise than the conventional DVR methods. But the accuracy of this function in MOD mode needs a great deal of big time work. It's terrible!VOD is inherently different. Saved recordings and the live "trick-play" buffer are video stored on the disk drive in your DVR; the "On Demand" channels are streamed from some point on the network and are not stored locally. When you hit a playback command like PAUSE, REW or FF, your box sends that request out over the network and it has to arrive at the whatever network element is streaming the video before it can respond. Non-DVR STBs like the Explorer 4250 can be used to play VOD, with PAUSE, REW and FF functions; these STBs have no local storage and can't record anything.

And yes, I agree--the responsiveness of VOD is generally terrible. Then again, it's just fine if all you do is watch the presentation, possibly PAUSE'ing now and again to take a break or attend to something. Trying to use FF and REW to locate a particular point in the program is not at all smooth or easy. This is the fault of poor VOD implementation by the cable companies--there are Internet streaming video applications that are much more responsive.

Even with its faults, there are some praiseworthy aspects of VOD. It's nice to be able to peruse a library of available titles and play them at will, with playback beginning (relatively) immediately after you ask for it.

Can someone refresh my memory? I did a search and nothing specific came up. I forgot which buttons you push on the front of the 8300 to do a manual reboot.

Can someone refresh my memory? I did a search and nothing specific came up. I forgot which buttons you push on the front of the 8300 to do a manual reboot.

Info, Vol- and Vol+

It might be easy to remember visually, since it's the second row of buttons.

Can someone refresh my memory? I did a search and nothing specific came up. I forgot which buttons you push on the front of the 8300 to do a manual reboot.

you didn't look very far, I made a post about this on the previous page.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13819253&postcount=4414

I just got upgraded to nav..

i have a DLP HD and Surround system ,,hdmi cable,,

For the audio/sap i think its called,,the remote in preferences had 'analog = yes,,and digital = no,,
shouldnt i have digital = yes and analog = no???

what are other basic settings for audio ,,it seems a little off,,
Narrow seems best for me so far...

also no way to juggle my recorded programs to 'pick' which one I want to sacrifice if i run out of room and dont want to permamnetly keep it,,it wont let me as gfar as i can see..

also, the yellow triangle used to let me skip 100 chanells at a time in guide,,is there a equivalent now????

and i used to have my settings 1080 only,,now all the selections are set,,

I just got upgraded to nav..

i have a DLP HD and Surround system ,,hdmi cable,,

For the audio/sap i think its called,,the remote in preferences had 'analog = yes,,and digital = no,,
shouldn't i have digital = yes and analog = no???

what are other basic settings for audio ,,it seems a little off,,
Narrow seems best for me so far...

also no way to juggle my recorded programs to 'pick' which one I want to sacrifice if i run out of room and don't want to permanently keep it,,it wont let me as gfar as i can see..

also, the yellow triangle used to let me skip 100 channels at a time in guide,,is there a equivalent now????

and i used to have my settings 1080 only,,now all the selections are set,,

I can help with the saved recordings. The default on Navigator is "Do Not Delete" instead of the Passport default "Save Until Space is Needed." Unfortunately, there is currently no master control setting to change this default. The only option is to go under each recorded show individually in the record list. Than select Record Options and change the shows that you care LESS about to "Save Until Space is Needed."

The Narrow audio setting is supposed to allow for equal sound distribution between the program, commercials, and channel changing. Works great for me.

The Yellow Triangle 100 channel skip in the guide is a Passport Software copyright AFAIK and cannot be duplicated by Navigator for this reason.

I heard that a big update may be coming to Navigator later this summer. The biggest requests are the return of "View This Channel Now" in the IPG as an option on a future show and the return of keyboard Word Searches, (not just Title Searches.) I am also hoping for more expanded Sports categories. I do know that the ability to change IPG skin color schemes is being developed, along with their video games and on-line poling options. I do know that "Start Over" is coming. (i.e The option to restart a program after you have tuned to a show without the need for a DVR.) From my understanding the limitations are:

1.) You cannot save the show or go to a certain point within the show without a DVR.

2.) You will only be able to "Start Over" a show within a certain Time Frame. (I think I heard something like anytime up to 10 minutes before the show ends.)

3.) All Start Over time prompts are "reset" for the next day AFAIK at Midnight.

Does anyone have Start Over now?

Jack

I've done some more testing on the rewind functions in Navigator and here's what I've found...

This crap is just too easy to fix. Navigator has been out in the field for awhile now. How did this stuff get past their quality control and why isn't it being addressed now?

It's worse than that. As you describe, the REW actually jumps forward in 2.4.9_3, but prior to that version it actually works as expected - it started right where you were at the time you pressed play. In other words, they had it working fine and broke it. Somehow the logic used by FF has been applied to REW.

It's worse than that. As you describe, the REW actually jumps forward in 2.4.9_3, but prior to that version it actually works as expected - it started right where you were at the time you pressed play. In other words, they had it working fine and broke it. Somehow the logic used by FF has been applied to REW.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, a useful function on FF has been mirrored on REW with unfortunate results. A goof that should have been caught in beta. This should be an easy fix, one would think. Ditto with the "skip-back" aka "instant replay" button only going back 3 seconds instead of 8. Wouldn't that fix essentially be one line of code? Change that factor from 3 to 8 or something similarly insanely easy?

Again, the question: who's managing the Navigator software project for TWC? Have they no quality control? Or do they really, really just not care that much...?

I have had Navigator about a week now. It's not too bad but certainly not as good as Passport. One thing that I have noticed is that the program info is sparse in comparison to Passport. I have two boxes, one has been upgraded to Navigator and the other still has Passport. I was watching a movie this morning and hit the Info button and there was very little information about the movie in Navigator. I checked it against the Passport box and it had much more information. You would think that the same program information would be available to Navigator so why do they choose not to show it all?

With Passport you could press pause and then you could advance forward and backward frame by frame. Does Navigator have this and I just haven't found the right combination?

It's worse than that. As you describe, the REW actually jumps forward in 2.4.9_3, but prior to that version it actually works as expected - it started right where you were at the time you pressed play. In other words, they had it working fine and broke it. Somehow the logic used by FF has been applied to REW.

the workaround that I'm using is to press pause instead of play. Pause will freeze exactly where you want during the rewind and then you can hit play and continue from there. Obviously adds more clicks to the process but it's easier than jumping back and forth with the transport controls.

I have had Navigator about a week now. It's not too bad but certainly not as good as Passport. One thing that I have noticed is that the program info is sparse in comparison to Passport. I have two boxes, one has been upgraded to Navigator and the other still has Passport. I was watching a movie this morning and hit the Info button and there was very little information about the movie in Navigator. I checked it against the Passport box and it had much more information. You would think that the same program information would be available to Navigator so why do they choose not to show it all?

It looks to me like the guide info is from a different company than was used when Passport was the IPG. There's not as much information, the program summaries are more concise and even then occasionally need another line to finish the sentence but are cut off at the end of the second line. They're probably doing this in-house now rather than sub it out as well. And trying to do it cheaper.

With Passport you could press pause and then you could advance forward and backward frame by frame. Does Navigator have this and I just haven't found the right combination?

No, that's another feature lost.

In addition, the on-line Navigator user's guide explains the 15-minute jump in FF/REW as working like Passport did, i.e. while in a FF/REW mode, hit the arrow key to jump 15 minutes forward or backward in the program. Instead, the way you do it is to hold down the FF or REW button and after a second or so, it will start jumping ahead in 15 minute chunks. Very clunky. Why advertise a feature in your user's guide that in your final release behaves differently, and not as efficiently?

It's almost like we're all dealing with a beta version of Navigator here. But it's a final version; this is what they've pushed out.

I have had Navigator about a week now. It's not too bad but certainly not as good as Passport. One thing that I have noticed is that the program info is sparse in comparison to Passport. I have two boxes, one has been upgraded to Navigator and the other still has Passport. I was watching a movie this morning and hit the Info button and there was very little information about the movie in Navigator. I checked it against the Passport box and it had much more information. You would think that the same program information would be available to Navigator so why do they choose not to show it all?

There's an FAQ on the TWC MidOhio Navigator page that indicates they are working on providing better program details in the coming months. I guess we'll see...

One thing I love about DishNetwork's guide is that they provide the original air date of most programs. A nice little extra touch.

With the many, many obvious drawbacks and deficiencies of Navigator in it's current state, I found another feature today that I liked. There were Tornado warnings this afternoon for the county above mine. With Passport, those warnings became permanent part of the program - even if recorded ages ago. The same was true for tests. With Navigator, the warning appeared to be separate from the program (and the warnings appeared universal on all channels).

I was watching a recorded program today when the warning came on, with the usual loud sounds and messages. Since the program audio was overpowered by the wranings, I tried FF to get past the warning, but I could tell that the program was forwarding but the warning message on the screen was continuing in real-time. After the message was over, I was able to back up the program and watch it normally.

That's a very nice improvement. I hated watching recorded shows with warnings and tests ruining several minutes of the program.

There's an FAQ on the TWC MidOhio Navigator page that indicates they are working on providing better program details in the coming months. I guess we'll see...

One thing I love about DishNetwork's guide is that they provide the original air date of most programs. A nice little extra touch.

I looked up the link and have provided it below:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/FAQ/TWCFAQCategories.ashx?CatID=2315&MarketID=124

EDIT: Raleigh-Durham link below, pretty much the same info but easier to read:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/easterncarolina/products/cable/Navigator/navigator_faq.html

With the many, many obvious drawbacks and deficiencies of Navigator in it's current state, I found another feature today that I liked.

... and I found another feature that I hate.

In Passport when a show was highlighted in the guide you could press C for the title search and it would automatically have already found all the occurrences of the show.

Now with Navigator, you highlight the show and then have to press B to find shows, press select for keyword search, type in the show, choose it from a list (which does not clearly indicate if there is more than one show under that name either), then scroll through the results - which only have dates and no days with them.

Yeah, that really makes life easier. If that's "the power of me" then I'm as powerful as Robin without Batman.

... and I found another feature that I hate.

In Passport when a show was highlighted in the guide you could press C for the title search and it would automatically have already found all the occurrences of the show.

Now with Navigator, you highlight the show and then have to press B to find shows, press select for keyword search, type in the show, choose it from a list (which does not clearly indicate if there is more than one show under that name either), then scroll through the results - which only have dates and no days with them.

That is definitely one of the major deficiencies with Navigator, and just one of many superior Passport features that I miss. :(

Another little 'glitch' I found today is another PIP issue that makes channel swapping and time shifting more difficult: If you set a channel on one tuner (say Ch. 4) then swap over to the other tuner (which is on say Ch. 10), if you then change the channel on the tuner you are viewing (from 10 to 6) the other tuner will automatically change channels to the channel you just left (from 4 to 10). As a result, you lose whatever program may have been buffering on the other tuner. (This 'problem' of course is not applicable if you are Recording the other tuner.)

It seems that for every improvement Navigator provides, there are several drawbacks, deficiencies, glitches, etc. Thankfully, it has at least been stable for me so far this past week on my 8300HD, and has yet to fail to record anything I've set to record (individual or series). <Knocking on Wood!> Which was definitely not my experience with the 8300HDC I had in the exercise room.

That said, I really hate that the clock in the guide only provides minutes and no seconds. But what's worse, is that Navigator doesn't automatically include a 30-second cushion before and after the scheduled start and end times of a recorded program. It seems that either the clock is behind by about 5 to 10 seconds, or it takes Navigator about that long to get a recording started.

I guess, whenever possible, I'll have to remember to build in the extra time using the recording options so I no longer miss the first few seconds of a program before it starts recording, and make sure it doesn't stop recording before the program ends. However, that is not possible when recording multiple shows on both tuners at the same time that air back-to-back.

ther little 'glitch' I found today is another PIP issue that makes channel swapping and time shifting more difficult: If you set a channel on one tuner (say Ch. 4) then swap over to the other tuner (which is on say Ch. 10), if you then change the channel on the tuner you are viewing (from 10 to 6) the other tuner will automatically change channels to the channel you just left (from 4 to 10). As a result, you lose whatever program may have been buffering on the other tuner. (This 'problem' of course is not applicable if you are Recording the other tuner.)

Yep, previous or last channel is automatically dumped to the spare tuner. The only way to stop it is to have the PiP window open when you change channels and swap tuners. It leaves the second tuner alone then.

The only good thing with TWC leaving us stuck with an old version of Passport for so long is that we never saw if the later versions of Passport added even more and better features. Considering that Navigator looks clunky next to Passport from early 2006 I'd hate to think what it would look like if they had replaced Passport 2008.

Yep, previous or last channel is automatically dumped to the spare tuner. The only way to stop it is to have the PiP window open when you change channels and swap tuners. It leaves the second tuner alone then.

The only good thing with TWC leaving us stuck with an old version of Passport for so long is that we never saw if the later versions of Passport added even more and better features. Considering that Navigator looks clunky next to Passport from early 2006 I'd hate to think what it would look like if they had replaced Passport 2008.

Who is using Passport 2008? Does Aptiv have any customers?

I am so frustrated with this new software change. I've had nothing but issues since then. I originally had an 8300HD box hooked up via HDMI. After the switch, I would get an error message when I turned the TV on saying that this device could not be hooked up via this DVI connection...Press OK, and it would work, but the picture would be lost occassionally.

I called TWC, they suggested, I get another box, so I got the 8240HDC. I set everything up and it seems I have more issues. Sometimes it saves my display settings, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes SD content will be stretched, sometimes it will be in 4:3.

I also reset all of my DVR schedules on Saturday. I was gone all day yesterday, and when I got home there was several things that didn't record "due to a recording conflict." I think I know what happened there, but it's really annoying. So, I noticed that when recording, it seems to be cutting off at the end of the show quicker than normal (ie, I don't see the last part of the show after the last commercial break or the previews for next week's shows). So, in the DVR settings, I extended the end of the shows by 1 minute. So, I think this is what is causing the issue. Say, you have one show set to record from 9:30-10:01 and two shows to record from 10:00-10:30. I think that because the 9:30 show spills over into the 10:00 slot, it will cause one of the 10:00 shows not to record.

In addition to that, the Navigator is labeling shows as new when they are not, so even though I have my DVR set to record new shows only on some, it records the reruns because the guide says they're new. For example, it set to record Deadliest Catch on Saturday, even though it was not. I checked the guide and it labeled it as new. Did the same thing last night for The Ultimate Fighter. This could also cause recording conflicts.

Then, last night, we were watching a DVD, and I noticed it was about 10:10 and the box was not showing any recording. My girlfriend like to record Brothers & Sisters which comes on at 10pm. So, I pause the movie and switch to the cable box. I navigate to the channel in the guide, hit select, but it stays on the same channel. I use the channel button to scroll through channels. The info at the bottom is changing, but it still remains on the same channel. Was still the same this morning. I didn't have time to unplug the box and mess around with it though. I'm still so frustrated with it that I might just throw the thing in the garbage.

Who is using Passport 2008? Does Aptiv have any customers?Aptiv was acquired by Gemstar/TV Guide about a year ago (and Gemstar is in the process of being acquired by Macrovision, if the deal hasn't fallen through). They've made a deal to supply an IPG to Cox, presumably to become their corporate standard (with TiVo as an extra-cost option). From this (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6514307.html) article in Broadcasting and Cable, published in December:
Gemstar-TV Guide -- which itself is in the process of being acquired for $2.8 billion by content-protection firm Macrovision -- got Aptiv's Passport, Passport DCT and Passport Echo IPGs, which run on both Motorola and Scientific Atlanta set-tops and are used by operators including Time Warner Cable, RCN and Cox, in that deal.

The expanded agreement with Cox covers existing Passport IPGs used by Cox, as well as an OpenCable Application Platform version of Passport and certain features and services of My TV Guide, including remote record. In addition, Gemstar-TV Guide granted Cox an IPG-patent license.

Passport is currently used in Cox’s Motorola systems, and Cox expects to begin deploying Passport to its SA boxes in early 2008.So, Passport continues as a mainstay of a major MSO, Cox, and its OCAP version will be deployed soon. I feel absolutely certain that it has been adapted to use one or more SDV systems as well. TWC's abandonment of it in favor Navigator had nothing to do with the capabilities of Passport, though it probably had something to do with its price.

Which is sad considering TWC is one of the largest companies in the world....

Well, here's hoping that spinning off the cable portion into its own entity helps rather than hinders the service. If not, I am back to looking at DirecTV for service. I just got my bill today and was surprised by a few nice increases. Namely the bundle package went up about $4 and the DVR jumped up to $10. I now have to figure if it will be cheaper to go satellite on 5 outlets or stay with TWC in the interim.

It's almost like we're all dealing with a beta version of Navigator here. But it's a final version; this is what they've pushed out.

The good news is that TWC said this is NOT the final release. It is what they pushed out, but not only will they have to work out its little bugs, they will also work to enhance Navigator. I have heard that more program descriptions are being worked on. (I already e-mailed them about their truncated sports menu, compared to Passport,) along with more subcategories of programing, high-res menu screens, interactive polling, and video games.

I seriously doubt that they will stop with what they have. The idea behind Navigator was/is to allow an on-going IPG that TWC could develop and up-date in-house, without having to pay rental fees to Aptiv's Passport for rental updates such as SDV options.

Navigator is an on-going software application. I don't think there has to be a "final form." Just let it improve over time to be as good as Passport. Work to make it better and stay with that goal. Change can be an on-going good thing. The idiocy of TWC was taking away features that AFAIK, were NOT copy-written from Passport for no reason. Why customers don't have a "View This Channel Now" when taking action on a future program, Keyword Searches for the keyboard, and listings for many major sports categories (i.e Tennis.) is the highlight of sheer stupidity.

On the other hand, there are things about Navigator that are nice, such as the ability to have a list of Now Playing Sports, News, and Kids shows in one place, among other categories. The On Demand Channel graphics look great, and I like the Caller ID on TV Navigator graphic better than Passport. I miss the banner duration setting that you could use to keep the Caller ID icon on screen longer with Passport. But my Caller ID on TV always works with Navigator. On Passport, it would go for weeks at a time without working, and sometimes the banner would shrink to be unreadable, not so with Navigator. I also like the DVR % full gage.

The problem is that on some screens, such as the Sports category, previously mentioned, there aren't enough sub categories. Than there are some categories that I think are pointless. (Searching categories by Title, or DVR saved shows by Title.)

Navigator just looks like it was put together with some good things, some crappy things, and some WTF were they thinking things? Selecting a Show in a List only to be told, "There are no upcoming shows available." Why is it there in the first place?

The whole project looks like it was put together by 50 people where better care was given to some features than to others and the experience level of these people varied considerably. Navigator looks like it was designed more in tune with a mid to late 90's era, rather than a "Y2K8 and beyond approach." They can't keep everything like this. The competition will smoke them.

Jack

I guess the point is that some of these bugs are so simple to address/fix that it boggles the mind that they weren't addressed before this version was pushed out. Navigator has been in development for at least 3 years; there's no excuse for some of this crap. The skip-back (instant replay) button only going back 3 seconds instead of 8 - that can't be more than one or two lines of code to fix that. The REW button mirroring the "jump back" function of the FF button is another one; how did that massive bug get by 'em? The clunky 15-minute jump feature that rejects the elegant way Passport worked - why? And on and on and on... :mad:

If they had any quality control at all, these bugs would have been addressed before they started this big nationwide rollout. The only answer, to me, is because they have an arrogant, entitled who-cares-about-the-customer attitude that's born out of their local monopolies. Most people, unless they're "power users" like us, won't leave their local cable company for the satellite competition; they'll just sigh and accept whatever crap is pushed onto them without a whimper. TWC realizes this and is taking advantage of it to push an IPG on their customers that has not been properly beta tested and tightened up before deployment. It's disgraceful, but sadly typical.

I guess the point is that some of these bugs are so simple to address/fix that it boggles the mind that they weren't addressed before this version was pushed out. Navigator has been in development for at least 3 years; there's no excuse for some of this crap. The skip-back (instant replay) button only going back 3 seconds instead of 8 - that can't be more than one or two lines of code to fix that. The REW button mirroring the "jump back" function of the FF button is another one; how did that massive bug get by 'em? The clunky 15-minute jump feature that rejects the elegant way Passport worked - why? And on and on and on... :mad:

If they had any quality control at all, these bugs would have been addressed before they started this big nationwide rollout. The only answer, to me, is because they have an arrogant, entitled who-cares-about-the-customer attitude that's born out of their local monopolies. Most people, unless they're "power users" like us, won't leave their local cable company for the satellite competition; they'll just sigh and accept whatever crap is pushed onto them without a whimper. TWC realizes this and is taking advantage of it to push an IPG on their customers that has not been properly beta tested and tightened up before deployment. It's disgraceful, but sadly typical.While I agree that Navigator (ODN) has plenty of inexcusable bugs, I think it's important that we distinguish between bugs and design issues. Bugs are things that obviously don't adhere to the intended design. Your siting of the short "instant replay" feature (although exaggerated) is a good example. However, design issues are more subjective. One person's bad design may be another's feature; it's a matter of how one uses the system. For example, some people complained when the REW button did not jump back.

I also think that because a project has been mismanaged and has a sloppy testing process does not necessarily lead one to conclude an attitude of arrogance. Although you may be right, I tend to believe it indicates more an issue of ineptness.

I bring this up because I think that our comments on this thread may be taken more seriously if our complaints and examples are more reasoned and constructive, and that we recognize that bugs are bugs, but many of the design complaints may only be an issue of personal preference.

Well, if the Open Cable platform ever works as it was intended, then Navigator would become a non-issue as I'm certain Tivo would release a standalone SDV capable unit with it's own guide. After all, this was the intended purpose of Open Cable! Have a system where any third party manufacturer could deploy a set top box and have it work on any cable system. In my market, Time Warner has some good offerings and the service has been above average (other than lack of information on future endeavors). My biggest gripe is the atrocious guide and the replacement which will be even worse. That coupled with the now $10 DVR fee, would instantly sell me on a Tivo unit to replace my current set top with. DirecTV is just about knocked out of the running because they a) cost more overall to get the same level of service b) did away with OTA tuners in their set tops (stupidest move ever!) and c) PQ (to me) is just not up to snuff with what TWC is giving me. Now, if DirecTV offered a set top with a built in QAM tuner, that might help. Anyway, I still can't get a straight answer on Navigator in this market. No one will say anything anymore on whether or not we are getting it, what the time frame is, etc. I guess we will see and I will keep my fingers crossed that the SARA replacement version of Navigator is better than the Passport replacement version!

You're right about the potential for Tivo taking over as part of the Open Cable platform, but then isn't that probably also the point of Navigator. IF TWC is to try and compete with Tivo, wouldn't they (ultimately) stand a better chance if they owned/controlled the IPG as opposed to a licensed one and stood in line waiting for the features/enhancements to be implemented by a 3rd party vendor (and at what cost)?

And I don't remember all of the company shuffling mentioned earlier so I'm sure I've got it all wrong, but if Gemstar owns Passport and is now getting laced up with Comcast, that couldn't have been a good long-term thing for TWC, right? And correct me if I'm wrong (again), but SARA would tie them to Cisco hardware, right? And again, how do you differentiate and give value add if you asking for features/enhancements to the software that everyone gets standard with the box?

Long-term, an in-house IPG makes real sense even if the initial execution fell all over the floor (and it's debatable how on the floor it really is).

I will keep my fingers crossed that the SARA replacement version of Navigator is better than the Passport replacement version!I strongly suspect that they will be identical. They've already got two versions of Navigator to support and I don't see them going for a third (unless it were a variation of the OCAP one, customized to run on their Motorola networks). It's a ton cheaper to replace the headend software in their systems now using SARA to match that used in their formerly-Passport-now-Navigator ones.

IF TWC is to try and compete with Tivo, wouldn't they (ultimately) stand a better chance if they owned/controlled the IPG as opposed to a licensed one and stood in line waiting for the features/enhancements to be implemented by a 3rd party vendor (and at what cost)?First off, TWC and TiVo aren't in the same business and definitely not in competition with one another. Many people have $200/month cable service bills, of which $10-$20 is for DVR lease. TWC's bread-and-butter is the sale of content, not the lease of equipment; TiVo's business is the sale of equipment and television guide service, not content (though they have some partnership with companies doing content sales, like Amazon).

Secondly, when you pay for millions of licenses to run a piece of software, you do not "stand in line" to get what you want from them. I've worked on firmware sold-through a provider (in cellular phones) and I can tell you that when Verizon or Sprint wanted something special from us, we gave it to them, tout de suite, flogging people into as much overtime as necessary to do so. Companies like Aptiv exist on the profits of one or two large accounts, and will do what it takes to keep those accounts happy. Three or four years ago, version of Passport Echo had every feature of Navigator (save SDV tuning, and that has to be trivial to add) and a ton of other stuff besides. TWC simply choose to stop upgrading, in anticipation of rolling this crap out, pissing off so many customers that how bad the new software is has been covered in mainstream local news papers and television news broadcasts. It's an embarassingly poor business decision.

While I agree that Navigator (ODN) has plenty of inexcusable bugs, I think it's important that we distinguish between bugs and design issues. Bugs are things that obviously don't adhere to the intended design. Your siting of the short "instant replay" feature (although exaggerated) is a good example. However, design issues are more subjective. One person's bad design may be another's feature; it's a matter of how one uses the system. For example, some people complained when the REW button did not jump back.


Why is my description of the instant-replay bug "exaggerated"? (And it most definitely is a bug since the on-line documentation, such that it is, claims it backs up 8 seconds, not 3, as Passport reliably did.) And I don't know of a single person who would have complained about a REW button working as it's supposed to, i.e. dropping you off at the last frame you saw during the rewind instead of up to a half-minute in front of it! Good grief, how could that be anything other than a goof? Again, that's not an "intended designed feature", that's a mistake, and a bad one, that should have been caught and addressed before the software was deployed. We've even postulated how it might have happened, i.e. the skip back feature that's necessary on FF was mistakenly mirrored onto the REW button - stupid. Into what category do we put the dropping of a digital counter companion, minutes and seconds, to the yellow status bar? If it's a design-feature "upgrade", then who exactly benefits from not being able to tell where they are, how far they've come, and how far they have to go in a recording/buffer? These are easy-to-fix bugs, plain and simple, that should have been caught during a responsible quality control effort. To say otherwise is to try to put lipstick on a pig, and rationalize and condone bad corporate behavior by TWC. They're perfectly capable of doing that on their own.

They need to be aware of and understand these serious issues that have been laid out for them on this site and others and which they should have discovered during the beta testing process, or just by paying attention to the code during software development. What they don't need is pandering and apologies from us; that just gives them cover and excuses to avoid doing the due-diligence they should already have done. They've had years to de-bug this software, fercryinoutloud! Anyone who has been subjected to this downgrade in quality, reliability, and functionality has a right to be mighty angry, and a right to have their grievances heard. Especially if they're paying TWC over $130 or more each month for cable service. I noticed they didn't give me a discount in my latest bill to make up for the removal of key features from my DVR when I woke up one morning to find Passport replaced with Navigator.

Long-term, an in-house IPG makes real sense even if the initial execution fell all over the floor (and it's debatable how on the floor it really is).

I agree that an in house guide makes sense, but TWC has proven that they are incapable of handling the task. Maybe when new hardware starts to come out, it may have an impact on this, but I doubt it. Navigator is going into it's third year of deployment and is still "beta" from all reports I've seen. This impending deployment has me looking to satellite even though I'm generally happy with what TWC provides. The DVR is a mainstay because of my schedule and not having a reliable one is reason enough to drop service. I just can't believe how light years ahead either satcos guide is compared to TWC. The only thing I'd like to see satcos add would be channels logos to the guide (ala IE or Mozilla Favorites lists). I would probably miss my On Demand programming as well so I am on the fence until Navigator is deployed here. Time Warner has joined Microsoft in the world of software debacles. Instead of Vista, they gave us Navigator.

I bring this up because I think that our comments on this thread may be taken more seriously if our complaints and examples are more reasoned and constructive, and that we recognize that bugs are bugs, but many of the design complaints may only be an issue of personal preference.

Taken more seriously by who? David Bott?

This isn't the official "Talk to Time Warner" forum. They aren't reading and taking notes. They don't really care what happens outside of their testing base.

Don't confuse posting on an internet message board with a legitimate means of communicating to a company.

When do you think the new Cisco boxes (8500's, right?) will hit TWC markets? From all reports, Navigator has worked well on them. But who knows what will happen?

Jack

When do you think the new Cisco boxes (8500's, right?) will hit TWC markets? From all reports, Navigator has worked well on them. But who knows what will happen?

Jack

No telling. Again, our division is horrible with public relations. All you get when you ask a question is the canned response of "We're working hard to bring (insert item her) to you and as soon as it's available we'll let you know" The sad thing is, once it's available here, I know before they announce it. It just shows up in the guide! Like HD additions. They have been good at adding HD content, but it just appears and there is never any formal announcement. It's sad that there is such a lack of communication.

Why is my description of the instant-replay bug "exaggerated"?I said exaggerated because I usually saw a 5-second backup. However, I'm looking at a count-down timer right now on MSNBC (they're showing when the WV polls close). When I hit replay, it backs up 8-9 seconds consistently. Anyone who wants to test it accurately can tune to MSNBC for the rest of the day and see for themselves. Since you don't indicate which release you have, we can't tell if the problem has been fixed on my release or broken on yours.

BTW: I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. I was trying to agree with you that a 3-second replay was a good example of a bug.

Into what category do we put the dropping of a digital counter companion, minutes and seconds, to the yellow status bar?One can argue whether it was a good decision or not, but this is an example of the program working as designed. I too would rather see seconds, but compared to ODN's other problems, I have trouble getting too worked up over it.

Taken more seriously by who?Other rational people trying to read this thread.

I guess when I think about it though, what's the point of showing your anger here if you didn't think that someone from TW was reading it? Otherwise, no one benefits from it other that the ranter; and even then it's probably wasted effort.

Dude--it's a discussion of something that affects people deeply. Finding out that others are equally angry and frustrated about it is validating. It's not a solution, but it lets you know that the way that you feel is reasonable and typical, which in itself is helpful :). TWC is probably listening, but when I make a comment, I'm never concerned about whether they hear it or not.

I can help with the saved recordings. The default on Navigator is "Do Not Delete" instead of the Passport default "Save Until Space is Needed." Unfortunately, there is currently no master control setting to change this default. The only option is to go under each recorded show individually in the record list. Than select Record Options and change the shows that you care LESS about to "Save Until Space is Needed."



Jack

I understand all that,,what I was askin is in old format it would list as example , the 5 shows I had already recorded..lets call them 1 thru 5, with 1 on top of list, 5 at bottom,,
I knew cause of lots of scheduled stuff to record and the 'hourglass' icon that some things , lets say itesm 4 and 5, wewre in danger of being erased when new recordings start,,In old format, I could slide 4 or 5 to top of list if i felt they were more important than items 1,2 or 3..
In this new format, it looks like what ever is at bottom gets erased when room needed,,,

also, i notice for arecorded program , to see the whole writeup on show, yo uhit INFO like before,,BUT in this POS format, you cant scroll down to see whole writeup,,its truncated for recorded programs with no vehicle to see rest...