I would much rather have the option to list ONLY the channels I want, with an option to switch to ALL, just like TitanTV gives me. Having Favorites at the beginning certainly would help though.

Dag nab it! It's COPPER, cooper is a tire. :) :D :)
Maybe he was referring to cooper pairs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_pair), a feature of superconductivity. :D

This last sentence makes me curious.

Why would a cableco outlay a huge chunk of cash, when (in their minds) they've already got a capable infrastructure laid out ? Obviously, this doesn't apply to cablecos which already have fiber laid out, which I have to assume is in the minority right now...Minority in what sense? Certainly not in the sense of households passed. I'd assume that all major markets are hybrid fiber/coax by now, with fiber-to-the-node and coax to the customer premise. (The system I was on in Chicagoland made the switch about 8 years back). It's the only way that they have bandwidth for high-speed internet and phone services.

Now fiber-to-the-home is pretty rare for cable providers. Some small systems which have made the switch from all coax in the past few years have opted to go that route from the beginning, as have many new systems in countries where there was no existing cable infrastructure until recently.

I think TWC just tried to update my Navigator software here in a Lincoln, NE. Guess what? It hung the box. Just sits there with that stupid r----- on it's display.

Do they even test this stuff before they push it out?

Lincoln has been a beta site since June 06. I am shocked you have not had other issues. What kind of box do you have. I just got Navigator here on my SA 2100, but they have not done the 8300 DVR yet. Per KC customer care the DVR's are going to be last to upgraded. So I have 2 boxes with Navigator and 1 with Passport now.

I really think Lincoln has been more of an Alpha site than Beta. And this post proves it.

I have the SA 8300HD DVR box. We've had the Navigator software for about a month now and it hasn't been bad. A couple of annoying features, such as if you turn the volume up, you can't do anything else until the volume bar disappears. Also, they changed the FF on the DVR. Before, if you hit Play while FF, it would jump you back a few seconds and play from there. Now it starts playing at the exact moment you see on the screen. Which means if you're on 2xFF during the commercials, you'll the see the start of the show, have to hit play, then rewind back a few seconds so you don't miss anything.

I've talked to a few other people and they all have said their boxes have bricked themselves. SA 8300 non-HD DVRs and SA 8000s.

I think TWC just tried to update my Navigator software here in a Lincoln, NE. Guess what? It hung the box. Just sits there with that stupid r----- on it's display.

Do they even test this stuff before they push it out?



Me too. I've also had Navigator for the past month here in Lincoln NE. This morning the box is dead. sounds like this is widespread.....I was planning on just driving to the office and getting a new box but maybe I'll call first.

I was just getting used to Nav. What really sucks is if I lose all my programs on the DVR...had whole seasons I hadn't watched yet.

Dag nab it! It's COPPER, cooper is a tire. :) :D :)

Eeeek! Actually, Cooper happens to be the name of my sister's cat. Cooper loves to head butt me, so of course I have a soft spot for the guy.

If hitting play while doing a FF brings you to the instant you are seeing, indeed that is a step backwards from Passport. There are MANY folks I know, both IRL and here, who really depend on this feature.

Like I was trying to say, we will probably gain some and loose some going from what we have to MDN. If the actual rollout version of MDN DOES correctly support external drives AND also eliminates this effect, I might almost prefer to go back to Passport. Of course, in NONE of this do we have any choice!

My box is back up and running here in Lincoln NE

i called TWC and they had a message saying the update on all boxes failed, and the engineers are working on it. So, I went back over to my box, unplugged it for a few minutes, plugged it back in, it went through a very long boot process, and now it is back to normal (Navigator). Don't see any obvious "updates".

Me too. I've also had Navigator for the past month here in Lincoln NE. This morning the box is dead. sounds like this is widespread.....I was planning on just driving to the office and getting a new box but maybe I'll call first.

I was just getting used to Nav. What really sucks is if I lose all my programs on the DVR...had whole seasons I hadn't watched yet.

I would hold off on that for the moment. If you try calling customer service, the line is busy. That's probably a good sign that TWC bricked a good portion of the boxes in the city. So rather than lose all my shows, I'm going to hold out hope that they get it figured out yet today. That would be a LOT of new boxes and very p----- off people if they don't try to fix it through another upgrade push.

And the rest of you can thank us for taking the multiple bullets on this first. Ahh...the frontline is such a fun place to hang out.

A plea to all you guys with Navigator from all of us who are watching what is happening with great interest:

PLEASE: Add your LOCATION to your profile! Navigator is apparently in test in several locations, it would help the rest of us if we knew which system you are on. It would also be helpful if your signature would include what cable equipment (8300HD, 6412, etc) you had.

Thanks for doing that. :)

And the rest of you can thank us for taking the multiple bullets on this first. Ahh...the frontline is such a fun place to hang out.

pah, you're not so special! They bricked the 8300 in my area last year for most of the day during a minor update for Passport! I spent all morning trying to get the damn thing up and running before I found out what happened. :rolleyes:

Also, they changed the FF on the DVR. Before, if you hit Play while FF, it would jump you back a few seconds and play from there. Now it starts playing at the exact moment you see on the screen. Which means if you're on 2xFF during the commercials, you'll the see the start of the show, have to hit play, then rewind back a few seconds so you don't miss anything.


Try using the 'Instant Replay' button to stop the fast forward instead of hitting 'Play'

xnappo

Try using the 'Instant Replay' button to stop the fast forward instead of hitting 'Play'

xnappo

Oh...I guess that would work. Hehe...never really used the instant replay button much before so I never thought to use it there.

Vision: I remember that update. Took TWC 3 days to get mine fixed. I do wish we had another hardline cableco to pick from...

Oh...I guess that would work. Hehe...never really used the instant replay button much before so I never thought to use it there.


This is how we have always had to mimic that function on SARA...

xnappo

KCMOTWCUSER -

Have you been able to figure out how far out the guide will retrieve data? There was speculation that it would be 14 days, but also speculation that it was a regional setting, and that KC would still be limited to 7 days.

Sounds pretty clunky from what you've seen so far...

It is 7 days just like Passport at this time. But that might be because they are running 2 systems. I also noticed that the digital Disney Channels are gone at 380 and 381. Also the 611 Diagnostic Channel is gone, I don't know how to look up the revision number of Navigator. Does anyone know how to look for it?
It's still an 8300HD - try the Select|Exit|DIAG|Boing trick.

A cooper (http://onelook.com/?w=cooper&ls=a) is a maker of barrels. Hence the family name "Cooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_(surname))".

I have never heard of this, what is the trick and what order do you use these buttons, I just always went to CH 611.
Simultaneously press EXIT and SELECT until you see DIAG on the 8300HD's display. You will probably also hear a "ding." Be patient; it may take a few seconds. Release the two buttons and press EXIT again. At that point, if it's working, you will see the DIAG pages and be able to scroll through them.

If you have depressed the two buttons - in the initial step - for over five seconds and nothing has happened, then I'd guess that it no longer works.

Let us know either way.

Does the 8300 need to be Off?

Does the 8300 need to be Off?
I'm sorry - it should be powered and on.

You can you the left/right arrows to jump in 15min increments in an OnDemand Show. Only you might not understand this feature at 1st as when you press the Right Arrow the Info banner pops up and displays Ch1 00:00:00, press again and Ch2 00:15:00, Ch3 00:30:00, etc. When you have to jump spot you want press select and you will be jumped to this segment. I am not sure what the Ch has to do with it. It is a neat feature. The Left Arrow starts at the end or on a 2 hour movie CH9 02:00:00 was 1st to display.


I suspect the Ch is for Chapter. This is like a DVD recorder where it automatically puts in chapter marks if you want at set intervals. By default they are 5 minutes and when you hit ">>|" button (= next chapter of DVD) it will jump in 5 miinute increments of recorded stuff or to the actual next chapter on prerecorded. So they are calling each 15 minutes a new chapter by default. I can see future possibilities of making the chapter lengths user defined or for movies the same as on a prerecorded DVD.

Dan

... I tried out Navigator some more this evening on my SA2100 ... I still think they need to work on speed as it really is slow and you think it is locked up while “Loading” seems to come up almost every time you do anything, even with the basic IPG.
Sounds as if the software is too large to be held in the local memory of your SA2100, so that some subroutines have to be downloaded every time they're used. Let's hope some other SA models have more memory.

any updates on launch schedule for South East, NC perhaps?

Wonder if Diana or someone from TWC will let us sara uses know when we will see Navigator and bid goodye to sara. Greensboro NC-SARA 187.27

I haven't read the backstory on this but I do know there is a Dolby Digital issue with the SA8300 and some HDTV sets (e.g. the Sharp Aquos) when fed via HDMI.

Since the HDTV says it can't receive DD5.1 via HDMI, the SA8300 shuts down all audio outputs to standard PCM 2-channel stereo. This means on both the HDMI audio path as well as the optical audio path to your receiver.

The solution (if this is your problem) is to substitute an HDMI-to-DVI cable for connecting the SA8300 to your HDTV (if your set has a DVI input), or get two HDMI-to-HDMI cables and join them with a pair of HDMI-to-DVI adapters (if your set does not have a DVI input but only an HDMI input), so as to eliminate the audio part of the HDMI signal path. That way the SA8300 is not bothered by the fact that the HDTV cannot accept DD5.1 over HDMI and will simply do whatever you tell it.

And of course you should then "force" Dolby Digital audio output in the General Settings (press Settings twice to get there), navigating to "AUDIO: DIGITAL OUT" and then moving over to select "DOLBY DIGITAL".

This combination of steps will cause Dolby Digital out to your receiver (which is obviously what you are listening to, not the speakers in the set) and still provide digital video (HDMI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-DVI-to-HDMI) to the HDTV. The downside, of course, is that there will now be NO audio delivered to your HDTV for its speakers, but I don't think you're concerned about that.

If this is your problem, then this is your solution. Just a quirk of the SA8300 and some HDTV sets.

P.S. - one other "solution" is to use component video connections from SA8300 to HDTV instead of HDMI. But depending on your set and your desires, this may be a non-starter.

Just to update this (it is on page 3 of this thread). I tried this out. Using a couple of HDMI to DVI adapters. Didn't work. Still can't get a DD signal to my receiver when using the HDMI cable to my TV. I can get a DD signal to my receiver using component cables (but it isn't a realistic option for me or at least one that I want to use). I sent an email to TW Nebraska about it to see if they have a solution.

With the old Passport software I was able to shut off the audio feed through the HDMI cable and send DD to my receiver through coax or optical. It must not be an option with Navigator or at least I haven't found a way to do it.

...tried ... Using a couple of HDMI to DVI adapters. Didn't work. Still can't get a DD signal to my receiver when using the HDMI cable to my TV...This suggested work-around was mentioned in another thread recently. You are the first I have seen verify that the HDMI signal does pass unmolested across a HDMI-DVI -- DVI-HDMI adapter coupling. Before I write it off completely, I just wanted to check that all the immediate action drills were performed [hard-reset / TV STB receiver and everything else completely unplugged before bringing anything back up].

v/r,
C-F

Just to update this (it is on page 3 of this thread). I tried this out. Using a couple of HDMI to DVI adapters. Didn't work. Still can't get a DD signal to my receiver when using the HDMI cable to my TV. I can get a DD signal to my receiver using component cables (but it isn't a realistic option for me or at least one that I want to use). I sent an email to TW Nebraska about it to see if they have a solution.

With the old Passport software I was able to shut off the audio feed through the HDMI cable and send DD to my receiver through coax or optical. It must not be an option with Navigator or at least I haven't found a way to do it.

I had to revert to Component cables to get Dolby Digital Back. No combination of audio settings or HDMI connections could produce Dolby Digital. Sigh...

What about HDMI switching through an HDCP compliant A/V receiver? I am able to do this with the latest version of Passport. Will Navigator kill this for me or is it HDCP compliant and does it support switching?

What about HDMI switching through an HDCP compliant A/V receiver? I am able to do this with the latest version of Passport. Will Navigator kill this for me or is it HDCP compliant and does it support switching?
I believe that's function of hardware. i.e. the chip in the 8300HD. If it didn't work with your previous software, it won't work with Nav.

I believe that's function of hardware. i.e. the chip in the 8300HD. If it didn't work with your previous software, it won't work with Nav.
So since it does now, then it will with the new software? I hope so.

I believe that's function of hardware. i.e. the chip in the 8300HD. If it didn't work with your previous software, it won't work with Nav.Pepar, I've seen lots of indications that it is not totally a hardware function and that software updates have "broken" HDCP. Also, I think that the issue has also been related to the particular receiver design. Some (Denon for example) cause problems while others (Sony) do not.

Pepar, I've seen lots of indications that it is not totally a hardware function and that software updates have "broken" HDCP. Also, I think that the issue has also been related to the particular receiver design. Some (Denon for example) cause problems while others (Sony) do not.
I guess it's that the hardware - HDMI chip(set) - needs to support it, and then the software must as well.

Pepar, I've seen lots of indications that it is not totally a hardware function and that software updates have "broken" HDCP. Also, I think that the issue has also been related to the particular receiver design. Some (Denon for example) cause problems while others (Sony) do not.That's probably true, but it makes absolutely no sense (to me) whatsoever. The HDMI and HDCP protocols should be implemented entirely in the transceivers, other than the host saying to the chip something like "I'm going to be transmitting 'Copy Never' content now." But if that were true, there wouldn't be all of these incompatibilities.
Just to update this (it is on page 3 of this thread)...BTW--the number of posts displayed per page is a user option, so "page 3" doesn't mean much. On the upper right of each post is a post number to which you can refer, which is also a link to the post, if you want to make the reference a link. Just FYI.

I believe I read that HDMI chips did not know about "repeaters" in that the source could not "see through" the display to the AVR and pass 5.1 even though the display could only reproduce 2.0. I do not know if that's been fixed.

I believe I read that HDMI chips did not know about "repeaters" in that the source could not "see through" the display to the AVR and pass 5.1 even though the display could only reproduce 2.0. I do not know if that's been fixed.
Currently it works for me. I have the 8300HD with Passport software running to my Pioneer VSX-84TXsi to my TV all via HDMI. Picture and sound all transfer perfectly. I get 5.1 audio to the receiver ver HDMI as well.

Currently it works for me. I have the 8300HD with Passport software running to my Pioneer VSX-84TXsi to my TV all via HDMI. Picture and sound all transfer perfectly. I get 5.1 audio to the receiver ver HDMI as well.
HDMI from the 8300HD to the receiver and then on to the display?

Sure seems there's quite a bit of voodoo here.

Uh, DVI is ONLY video, so as soon as you go HDMI to DVI, audio is gone.

Pepar you are close, HDMI is a 2 way protocol. From the source, it queries the next device to see if it has any multi-channel decoding equipment. If not, it will only send PCM audio down that HDMI line. The emphasis is next device, not some device a few connections farther. Nothing is "broken" it apparently works as documented. Which is not to say it's impossible to change, but I highly doubt they'd ever change this, their focus seems to be on an ability to pass some nice buzz words down the line (TrueColor, TrueAudio). You know, the kind of stuff you need test equipment to tell is actually happening (that was very editorial, BTW!)

Passport (or SARA or MDN) have nothing to do with multi-channel audio or in preventing it. What IS true is that there was a recent "change." WITH the current 2.5.066, when one chooses Dolby Digital as the preferred output port, the 8300 will actually shut off audio through the HDMI port. HOWEVER, if one DOES select HDMI, audio will still flow out the optical/co-ax port. Prior, it didn't matter what one chose for the output port, all things were possible. I actually prefer it this way, it's slightly less work for me late at night when I want to ditch my AVR for just the TV speakers. Now I can leave HDMI audio enabled ON THE TV and get nothing as my 8300 is set for Dolby Digital. I shut off my AVR and change the 8300 to HDMI and bingo, PCM audio through the TV speakers. With the older software on the 8300, I also had to turn TV speakers on and off.

Of course, the last paragraph speaks to a TWC system; as we know, with the same software, rev, and 8300 STB, things CAN be different in different cable systems. So it MAY be that what does or doesn't get turned on or off at the 8300 could be different even with the same software running on it!

Of course, the last paragraph speaks to a TWC system; as we know, with the same software, rev, and 8300 STB, things CAN be different in different cable systems.
It only applies to YOUR TWC system! It does not necessarily apply to other TWC systems.

Pepar you are close, HDMI is a 2 way protocol. From the source, it queries the next device to see if it has any multi-channel decoding equipment. If not, it will only send PCM audio down that HDMI line. The emphasis is next device, not some device a few connections farther. Nothing is "broken" it apparently works as documented. Which is not to say it's impossible to change, but I highly doubt they'd ever change this, their focus seems to be on an ability to pass some nice buzz words down the line (TrueColor, TrueAudio). You know, the kind of stuff you need test equipment to tell is actually happening (that was very editorial, BTW!)
nicholc2 posted that he runs HDMI from 8300HD to AVR and then on to his display. Isn't the 8300HD is "querying" the display, which is TWO components away, for its video display capabilities and then sending video through the AVR to the display? (The AVR has no video display capabilities.) But yet those who've connected the 8300HD to their display and then on to their AVR get no 5.1 from their AVR because their display only reproduces 2.0. In this case, the 8300HD is NOT talking to the AVR for its capabilities. For the One Wire To Bind Them All to be that dumb is, well . . dumb.

nicholc2 posted that he runs HDMI from 8300HD to AVR and then on to his display. Isn't the 8300HD is "querying" the display, which is TWO components away, for its video display capabilities and then sending video through the AVR to the display? (The AVR has no video display capabilities.) But yet those who've connected the 8300HD to their display and then on to their AVR get no 5.1 from their AVR because their display only reproduces 2.0. In this case, the 8300HD is NOT talking to the AVR for its capabilities. For the One Wire To Bind Them All to be that dumb is, well . . dumb.In both case the 8300 is mixing its audio as specified by the immediately downstream device's capability. With the 8300 connected to the AVR, that's the AVR, who truthfully tells it that it can do 5.1 channel audio so that's what the 8300 sends it. In the case of (strangely) running HDMI from the STB into the television and from there into an AVR, the 8300 queries the immediately downstream device (the television) and finds out that it can only do 2.0 or 2.1 audio and that's what it mixes.

Does anyone run component+coax-or-optical-5.1 into their television then both of these out into their AVRs? Is that even possible with any known television? Why is it that people expect for it to be possible using HDMI?

BTW--the number of posts displayed per page is a user option, so "page 3" doesn't mean much. On the upper right of each post is a post number to which you can refer, which is also a link to the post, if you want to make the reference a link. Just FYI.

Sorry, didn't even see that up there.

HDMI from the 8300HD to the receiver and then on to the display?
Yes, works like a charm. Very nice to be able to run everything through the receiver. I have a Pioneer VSX-84TXsi, btw.

Also, in response to Riverside_Guy's post, at least in my case I can output the sound as HDMI or digital and it still goes through HDMI. I can verify this on my receiver by hooking up an optical cable and switching between the two on the DVR and the receiver.

It only applies to YOUR TWC system! It does not necessarily apply to other TWC systems.

Yes that sure could be the case, I probably should have emphasized "location" more.

Also, in response to Riverside_Guy's post, at least in my case I can output the sound as HDMI or digital and it still goes through HDMI. I can verify this on my receiver by hooking up an optical cable and switching between the two on the DVR and the receiver.

Might be an idea to take the 2-3 minutes to list what you have in your sig. I think there are 3 key data items, which STB, what software is running on it, and what cable/satellite/telco company and location.

Like I said, only when I set Dolby Digital on the 8300 does my HDMI go silent for audio. Which is my preferred choice (heaven knows how many other "we have no choice" options actually make folks angry).

To check you version of Navigator.Unfortunately, that is very SARA-esque, though we use the Pause button on the remote. With SARA we can use the B button to fade the display from a black background to transparent.

To check you version of Navigator.

1. Power on Box and Tv.

2. Press and hold "Select button" on remote or box. Release when the Message light on the box starts to flash.

3. Press the "Down Arrow" on remote or box.

4. This will bring up the Diag Screens, they will be overlaid on the program you are watching. Makes it hard to read, so you can Power off the box and the screens will be displayed on a black screen.

5. Use the arrows to move from page to page of the Diag Screens.

6. Pg 12 of my SA2100 has Software Versions.

7. The 4th like labeled Res: is your version of Navigator.

Mine is 2.3.11Z-ptv October 11, 2006 9:01:42am

8. Exit will take you out of the Diag Screens


Mine is 2.3.15AA-ptv Nov 27 2006, 17:26:33

I don't know if they have tried another update since the failed one last week. It really made a lot of people mad, I was at work so it didn't bother me but I did notice the box was frozen before I left for work at 4:45 AM. Most people didn't get it straightened out till around 8 that morning or at least that is what others have told me.

They have updated things since Nov 27th so I don't know if the date on there is relevant. I have been home when they pushed updates out since then. On the DVR the most noticable thing is that they have a warning if you are running out of room. I don't think they had this before but I may not have come close (I don't remember for sure).

Going on 3 days of using Navigator on my SA 2100.

I will have to say I am not impressed. The Find Shows feature which is what they are telling me is such a great thing is really a joke. You will learn a whole new appreciation for being patient as it is so slow. The “Loading” message gets really old after about 3 minutes of trying to find a show. You get results for a show title but then when you select it to find the show times , there are no show times. Then you press “C” to go back to search and “Loading” pops up again. This is a never ending circle and I finally gave up. Since are not displayed by show time instead they are alphabetical. Since every result I got was in the future by days, hours, or no times at all. I just went back to the normal IPG which also gave me “Loading”. Navigator must be a huge application as there are so many memory swaps going on. I sure hope they cache some of this on the hd of my 8300 when it gets upgraded. I see why they need to go to SDV to get bandwidth, if all the boxes are constantly having to hit the servers just to get IPG data.

I have still not gotten warm and fuzzy with the colors. The blues just make your eyes hurt when you are trying to read it for a period of time. We used Passport default colors, but even the Ice Blue scheme is not this “in your face” blue. The fonts they selected is not very easy to read either. Some of the characters are not even the same width as others. It really looks like some junior high science project where the divided the class up into teams for different parts of the application. That might explain why “C” is exit sometime and “Exit” is others, or a combination of the 2. There is no real common flow in the “Advanced features” Didn’t they have a working Passport and SARA box to refer to when they designed this thing.

I understand the upgrade that Lincoln got last week that bricked so many DVRs was rolled back. Does anyone from Lincoln know that to be a fact.

I was told by a rep here in KC how to get to the diag screen to check your version. I will put that in a different post.

You are right the find a show feature is bad. My loading times aren't as drastic with the 8300 HD though.

The one thing I am really starting to miss is the ability to hit a button on the remote and switch from normal to zoom (or stretch). With this you have to go through the menu to change it and then through the menu again to change it back. Unless there is something I am missing and the button changed.

This suggested work-around was mentioned in another thread recently. You are the first I have seen verify that the HDMI signal does pass unmolested across a HDMI-DVI -- DVI-HDMI adapter coupling. Before I write it off completely, I just wanted to check that all the immediate action drills were performed [hard-reset / TV STB receiver and everything else completely unplugged before bringing anything back up].

v/r,
C-F


I have since tried any number of combinations of hooking it up, powering equipment up and booting the box. Nothing worked. I am using component for the time being I guess. I sent off an email to TW Nebraska if I don't get a responce in a few days I will call them about it and see if they are going to resolve it or keep it how it is. Like I said before there wasn't an issue with this with the passport software so it isn't a TV, cable box or audio receiver issue it is in the Navigator software.

I use the composite connections as I didn't want to spend the bucks for a HDMI cable. Is it really worth the expense, as TWC will only provide composite cables when installing HD in your home.

And I thought Navigator was to provide more compliance with new laws. I thought by law they are required to have a working DMI or HDMI connection along with 1394 support. So what I am hearing Navigator doesn't support either.

The HDMI works. I just can't send a Dolby Digital signal to my receiver when I hook the HDMI up directly to my TV. I don't have a receiver that has HDMI so running the HDMI through my receiver and then to the TV wasn't an option. If I had such a receiver there probably wouldn't be a problem.

I use the composite connections as I didn't want to spend the bucks for a HDMI cable. Is it really worth the expense, as TWC will only provide composite cables when installing HD in your home. Check out Monoprice.com (they are an AVS Sponsor) typical HDMI cable is $6.50 (with shipping abot $13).

And I thought Navigator was to provide more compliance with new laws.Having downloadable security is part of the long term objectives of Navigator.
I thought by law they are required to have a working DMI or HDMI connection along with 1394 support. So what I am hearing Navigator doesn't support either.They are required to provide a STB that supports such if the customer requests it. But, from what I have read here, the current Navigator does work with HDMI, the issues that some are having with HDMI are typical of problems with SARA and Passport as well. Most of these issues relate to compatibility with AV receivers and the particular TVs (for example, if the TV signals via HDMI that it can handle only 2 channel, then the 8300 complies).

The real push seems to be Daylight Savings time. I don't know why but maybe the old Passport doesn't like the new date for daylight savings time this year and they don't want to pay for a Passport update to fix it.This is an issue with all versions of SW (SARA, Passport and Navigator). All software will be updated by the time daylight savings time takes place (now 3 weeks earlier).

I thought the base reason for the [pick your software] challenges with HDMI to the TV and optical DD5.1 to the AVR was: the 8300 hardware only has one digital audio path and thus cannot simultaneously send the TV one mix and the optical another. Thus the software writers have to choose, whatever the audio [EDID equivalent] interprets.

Trying to get DD5.1 through the TV via HDMI and the discussion over [first vs. second sinks] would seem to be a more advanced dance around compliance of all the components.

v/r,
C-F

I use the composite connections as I didn't want to spend the bucks for a HDMI cable. Is it really worth the expense, as TWC will only provide composite cables when installing HD in your home.

And I thought Navigator was to provide more compliance with new laws. I thought by law they are required to have a working DMI or HDMI connection along with 1394 support. So what I am hearing Navigator doesn't support either.
Whether or not you will see a diff using HDMI or not will really depend on your display. If you have a fixed pixel display (ie, DLP, LCD, Plasma), then you will probably be able to see a difference. I did. If you have an older rear projection tv then most people can't really see the diff. In the end it's personal preference. For me it was worth the money.

My setup is as follows, btw:

Mitsubishi 62" DLP (WD-62725)
Pioneer VSX-84TXSi 7.1 HDMI A/V Receiver
Time Warner Cable Columbus HD-DVR (SA 8300HD Passport 5.0.662)
Toshiba SD-1800 DVD Player
XBOX 360
Monster Reference Powercenter HTS 3500
Axiom Epic 80.500 7.1 Speakers

The one thing I am really starting to miss is the ability to hit a button on the remote and switch from normal to zoom (or stretch). With this you have to go through the menu to change it and then through the menu again to change it back. Unless there is something I am missing and the button changed.


I discovered that the # button works on my remote to change from normal to stretch to zoom.

This is an issue with all versions of SW (SARA, Passport and Navigator). All software will be updated by the time daylight savings time takes place (now 3 weeks earlier).

Didn't think the IPG software had that much to do with time; from what I see, time comes from what I surmise is a separate process at the head end. If I re-boot my box, the first thing that appears is the time. After it is displayed, the software download process begins. From this it sure would seem that there shouldn't be any issues as the DST/ST dates change this year.

Whether or not you will see a diff using HDMI or not will really depend on your display. If you have a fixed pixel display (ie, DLP, LCD, Plasma), then you will probably be able to see a difference. I did. If you have an older rear projection tv then most people can't really see the diff. In the end it's personal preference. For me it was worth the money.

I think it may be slightly more complicated than that. This sure is one area with a LOT of very different opinions. FWIW, my tests indicate both connections are very similar in color, saturation, sharpness. BUT one significant different is that component is overall darker. At least for me it sure was.

And don't forget that component is an analog connection; as such, it can be susceptible to various forms or interference, while HDMI should be immune to such things.

On my system, with a 60" Pioneer plasma, I've done A/B testing with it wired both ways so you can switch back and forth quickly. I can't tell ANY difference between HDMI and component, none. YMMV.

Does anyone know if TWC in NC (greensboro) will have navigator rolled out?

Didn't think the IPG software had that much to do with time; from what I see, time comes from what I surmise is a separate process at the head end. If I re-boot my box, the first thing that appears is the time. After it is displayed, the software download process begins. From this it sure would seem that there shouldn't be any issues as the DST/ST dates change this year.It is apparentl that there are some low level SW housekeeping processes going on that relate to time in the 8300s. These operations incorporate a standard algorithm for daylight savings time. Now that the algorithm is changed (moving 3 weeks sooner and one week later) the software has to be changed. This is not, in itself, related to the IPG - but cable does try to minimize SW updates, because (as with any product) SW updates can generate unexpected problems. As a result, they will try to group these together.

On my system, with a 60" Pioneer plasma, I've done A/B testing with it wired both ways so you can switch back and forth quickly. I can't tell ANY difference between HDMI and component, none. YMMV.
It could be as simple as the fact that my tv doesn't handle analog to digital conversion as well as other tvs. Who knows? That's why it's always best to test it out and see. For some it's noticable, for others it's not. If you can get your hands on a cable from a friend (or a store that will let you return it) then you can test and see.

On my system, with a 60" Pioneer plasma, I've done A/B testing with it wired both ways so you can switch back and forth quickly. I can't tell ANY difference between HDMI and component, none. YMMV.In addition to nicholc2's comment, when the display has a native resolution scan rate of 768 (as do most plasmas & LCDs), you never get top resolution with either 720p or 1080i due to the need for scaling. That would make it less likely that you would see a difference on such displays.

Didn't think the IPG software had that much to do with time...It is apparent that there are some low level SW housekeeping processes going on that relate to time in the 8300s...And previous versions of PASSPORT had trouble with [series recordings using time-slots] the DST change, so the internal storage of IPG/recording times and translation to the current [head-end time-server] was a problem at that time. Else they could just send a reboot / reload-IPG signal to every box right after the DST time change...

v/r,
C-F

Well, it makes sense. It probably only checks the time with the headend when you boot it. If it's running when DST takes affect, it has to make the adjustment itself, just like Windows. (Of course, XP normally checks a network time server daily, but it would still adjust for DST if it weren't connected to the net).

They probably sync the time every night when they update the IPG too, but it does make sense that it still has to be able to deal with DST on it's own via software or else everyone would have to delete and reschedule all their scheduled recordings. :)

On my system, with a 60" Pioneer plasma, I've done A/B testing with it wired both ways so you can switch back and forth quickly. I can't tell ANY difference between HDMI and component, none. YMMV.

When I 1st got my SA8300SD, component & HDMI were both active, so I have HDMI connect to the TV & component connected to my AVR (since it will switch component). With the latest update to Passport component is no longer active when HDMI cable is connected. Do anyone know or can verify that under the new Navigator that both are active at the same time?

I discovered that the # button works on my remote to change from normal to stretch to zoom.

Tried that out and it didn't work. Maybe it is the remote, not really sure if it works for you.

Yes, Mystro supports SATA drives. However, you can't choose where your content will be recorded to when setting up a recording, nor can you pull the drive and plug it into another set top box to watch recorded content. Content is keyed to the set top that recorded it.

It could be as simple as the fact that my tv doesn't handle analog to digital conversion as well as other tvs. Who knows? That's why it's always best to test it out and see. For some it's noticable, for others it's not. If you can get your hands on a cable from a friend (or a store that will let you return it) then you can test and see.

On my Panasonic CRT HD TV, using the DVI input provides a dramatically better picture (much better color balance, contrast and black level) than component (with identical settings). I'm sure it is a matter of the TVs inputs, as opposed to output differences from my SA8300HD, but echoing the above, you need to try it out and see.

Tried that out and it didn't work. Maybe it is the remote, not really sure if it works for you.


It works, but I have the newest remote that TWC is giving out with the 8300HD. The model # is: UR5U-8500L-TWL

I looked but can't find a link to it anywhere on the web. It's a nice improvement over the older remote...and the # key does change the screen shape.

I would guess that if you bring your old one to the TWC office and tell them you'd like a new one you'll get it.

I will give that a test when I get Navigator on my 8300HD.

When in CBL mode, the "Video Source" button does exactly what the # key does, switch stretch and zoom modes. We both have passport and while I suppose it's possible yours won't work that way, I'd be surprised if it did NOT work the same.

The HDMI works. I just can't send a Dolby Digital signal to my receiver when I hook the HDMI up directly to my TV. I don't have a receiver that has HDMI so running the HDMI through my receiver and then to the TV wasn't an option. If I had such a receiver there probably wouldn't be a problem.

I have an ancient AVR (6 years old) that has nothing bewtter than S-Video BUT it has both optical and co-ax audio inputs. The 8300 has both forms for audio out. HDMI to the TV, optical to the AVR, set the 8300 Dolby Digital.

It works, but I have the newest remote that TWC is giving out with the 8300HD. The model # is: UR5U-8500L-TWL

I looked but can't find a link to it anywhere on the web. It's a nice improvement over the older remote...and the # key does change the screen shape.

I would guess that if you bring your old one to the TWC office and tell them you'd like a new one you'll get it.

Is that the one with the kind of reddish backlighting?

I have an ancient AVR (6 years old) that has nothing bewtter than S-Video BUT it has both optical and co-ax audio inputs. The 8300 has both forms for audio out. HDMI to the TV, optical to the AVR, set the 8300 Dolby Digital.

Mine is like that too although I have component on my AVR. I used to do the same thing you are doing when we had passport. Like I said earlier it is an issue with Navigator right now. Passport has it built in where you can shut down the audio going through HDMI and use the coax or optical outs to your AVR (while sending your HDMI directly to your TV) for your audio. Navigator doesn't let you do that or at least it doesn't yet. So I am left with options of using the HDMI and letting my AVR use Pro Logic II to decode the 2 channel audio or using component and getting the DD 5.1.

When in CBL mode, the "Video Source" button does exactly what the # key does, switch stretch and zoom modes. We both have passport and while I suppose it's possible yours won't work that way, I'd be surprised if it did NOT work the same.

Whoa, hold on - the question is the '#' key doing stretch/zoom *with Navigator* - MTKSU - are you talking about Navigator or Passport?

Thanks,
xnappo

Whoa, hold on - the question is the '#' key doing stretch/zoom *with Navigator* - MTKSU - are you talking about Navigator or Passport?

Thanks,
xnappo

To clarify:
Navigator
8300HD
New remote (yes, the one that has a light button that makes it "reddish" so you can see all the buttons in the dark).
Press the # button: stretch/zoom/normal
video source button does nothing as far as I can tell

Whoa, hold on - the question is the '#' key doing stretch/zoom *with Navigator* - MTKSU - are you talking about Navigator or Passport?

Thanks,
xnappo
Riverside_Guy was responding to something over in the Passport thread (same post is there too)- I suspect he somehow made a reply in the wrong window.

Riverside_Guy was responding to something over in the Passport thread (same post is there too)- I suspect he somehow made a reply in the wrong window.

Dave, MTKSU - thanks for the clarification.

xnappo

Riverside_Guy was responding to something over in the Passport thread (same post is there too)- I suspect he somehow made a reply in the wrong window.

You are TOTALLY WRONG. I was responding to a post in this thread, that I correctly quoted.

In your zeal to nitpick anything I say, you have lost track of following the discussion. This constant nitpicking is getting very tiresome.

You are TOTALLY WRONG. I was responding to a post in this thread, that I correctly quoted.

In your zeal to nitpick anything I say, you have lost track of following the discussion. This constant nitpicking is getting very tiresome.


Welcome to the club. Dave's really good at mis-reading, mis-quoting, and mis-leading anyone he disagrees with. Don't expect him to change his behavior and/or attitude, though.

You are TOTALLY WRONG. I was responding to a post in this thread, that I correctly quoted.

In your zeal to nitpick anything I say, you have lost track of following the discussion. This constant nitpicking is getting very tiresome.Sorry, I was trying to clarify a post that didn't make sense in this context and didn't nitpick here in regards to that.

But as you brought it up: Yes, I do have a zeal to nitpick sweeping incorrect statements that assume that everything is the same as it is in NYC. You have a tendency to do this in some other threads and I have have not hesitated to point out that there are other systems and situations. Just because something is true in Manhattan does not mean it is true in Rochester (or anywhere else).

Welcome to the club. Dave's really good at mis-reading, mis-quoting, and mis-leading anyone he disagrees with. Don't expect him to change his behavior and/or attitude, though.Yes, Paul - you would know. :eek:

Yes, Paul - you would know. :eek:

Thanks for illustrating my point, once again. Your act is tiresome....

You are TOTALLY WRONG. I was responding to a post in this thread, that I correctly quoted.

In your zeal to nitpick anything I say, you have lost track of following the discussion. This constant nitpicking is getting very tiresome.

Uh... I apparently don't want to get on your bad side, but I disagree. You responded to a quote:

"I will give that a test when I get *Navigator* on my 8300HD."
This was in reference to a friend who had tried it on Navigator on another box and it didn't work.

with:

"We both have *passport* and while I suppose it's possible yours won't work that way, I'd be surprised if it did NOT work the same."

That was confusing...
xnappo

Uh... I apparently don't want to get on your bad side, but I disagree. You responded to a quote:

"I will give that a test when I get *Navigator* on my 8300HD."
This was in reference to a friend who had tried it on Navigator on another box and it didn't work.

with:

"We both have *passport* and while I suppose it's possible yours won't work that way, I'd be surprised if it did NOT work the same."

That was confusing...
xnappo
Yes but Riverside-Guy was not talking about this.
Riverside guy was responding correctly to kcmotwcuser—not to MTKSU. :cool:

Another update from your friendly (but pissed off) Lincoln test market:

The HD-DVRs running Navigator after the most recent update (the one that failed initially) are having IR issues. The box will suddenly stop processing IR commands for anywhere from one minute to five minutes. After that time, it will process everything sent to it during that time in a rapid-fire fashion. Very annoying. I know of at least three that have this issue (of the four people I know with the HD-DVRs in town).

Another update from your friendly (but pissed off) Lincoln test market:

The HD-DVRs running Navigator after the most recent update (the one that failed initially) are having IR issues. The box will suddenly stop processing IR commands for anywhere from one minute to five minutes. After that time, it will process everything sent to it during that time in a rapid-fire fashion. Very annoying. I know of at least three that have this issue (of the four people I know with the HD-DVRs in town).Were you doing anything like FF or REW and then Play fairly quickly when it stopped processing commands? The reason I ask is because I can pretty much freeze my 8300 at will doing this, though it only freezes for a few to several seconds, not minutes.

I also live in Lincoln Nebraska and I've been having the same problems you have, Brad. Some of my friend have emailed Time Warner here in Lincoln about the problems and have not got a response. I have called them and all they say is they are aware of the problems and they are working on it. I loved the Passport software, I wish I could have it back. Me and my friend joked about moving closer to Omaha so we could have Cox cable instead. I think they need to at least refund their customers the cost of the monthly fees for the DVR.

Time Warner also needs to add more HD channels. Satellite is looking better all of the time.

OMG, Stop it boys….
So boys play nice.All’s cool, just trying to shed some light not looking for a fight.
There's no sand throwing in this box.

Were you doing anything.... quickly when it stopped processing commands?.Regarding Brad Smith’s situation, DoubleDAZ is asking a pertinent question. This “delayed remote” glitch seems to happen, for some, when additional buttons (or remote commands) are pressed before the first one (command) occurs. It also is more likely to occur when the hard drive is closer to full.

Regarding Brad Smith’s situation, DoubleDAZ is asking a pertinent question. This “delayed remote” glitch seems to happen, for some, when additional buttons (or remote commands) are pressed before the first one (command) occurs. It also is more likely to occur when the hard drive is closer to full.

I will say this I haven't been having any issues like Brad said. Maybe some general lag when trying to stroll through the guide but nothing like he is desribing. I may not be as rigorous as these guys are with it though.

I will say this I haven't been having any issues like Brad said. Maybe some general lag when trying to stroll through the guide but nothing like he is desribing. I may not be as rigorous as these guys are with it though.

Same Here. Haven't seen that issue yet with the remote, and I have the new one also.

I don't mind the Navigator software all that much...I just can't stand TWC's updating processes since they always seemed plagued with problems. And the replay feature to get back to the start of a show when FF? Highly recommended.

Time Warner also needs to add more HD channels. Satellite is looking better all of the time.

I used to think the same thing until my parents got Dish Network and my brother-in-law got DirectTV. My god, those have got to be the worst user interfaces I've ever seen. Just painful to use.

I used to have the Directv TiVo, and I loved the interface. Is their proprietary DVR a lot different?

OMG, Stop it boys.

My AT8550 remote is not like the Atlas DVR/PVR remote that I was also issued with the DVR. After looking at the Atlas remote the # key is labeled HD/Zoom and it does Zoom/Stretch the screen just like the Video Source button does. The AT8550 doen't have any text around the # button. I still have Passport on my 8300HD. I just know my friends 8300HD with Navigator will not Zoom/Stretch with the Video Source button, he has the AT8400 remote, I just called him and he tried the # button and it would Zoom/Stretch.

I never use the Atlas remote because it is really junk as you have to point it right at the 8300HD to make it work. I guess it is because both IR LEDs are facing front and the AT8500 has one pointing front and the other is facing down. My only guess is the range of view is larger due to this. I happend to get the AT8550 from a tech when he was here as he said it was a better remote and it is made by SA, where as the Atlas is made by UEI Technology. I am sure the UEI is cheaper.

So boys play nice.

Arghhh, so now we have to think about which remote we have! Great... NOT.

Was "Atlas" something other than Universal Remote? I found it interesting that when I went from the 8000 DVR to the 8300HD DVR, I ended up with the same UR5U-8400 remote. I absolutely do have lack of response issues with it, but opnly for the first 4-5 minutes of the 8300 being fully on. But I verge too far O/T...

I used to have the Directv TiVo, and I loved the interface. Is their proprietary DVR a lot different?

Visibly, it's pretty different, but still has the vast majority of the features of the DirecTivo, if implemented in a slightly different manner. It has plenty of issues of it's own, but if you have to have a flakey DVR, you might as well have one that has the richest feature set ;)
For the curious, the users manual is here (http://www.directv.com/see/pdf/060508HR20UserGuidev1_0b.pdf) .
I think this is where I'm probably headed. I'd had hopes that Navigator was going to turn the 8300HD into a real DVR, but it looks like this thing is doomed to be the "Fisher Price - My First DVR" of the HD DVR world.

Here is the link to the AT8400 Remote Manual. The AT8550 looks like it but it has more device codes than the AT8550.Don't you mean more than the AT8400? If you do, and you edit your post, I'll delete this one.

Were you doing anything like FF or REW and then Play fairly quickly when it stopped processing commands? The reason I ask is because I can pretty much freeze my 8300 at will doing this, though it only freezes for a few to several seconds, not minutes.
Just about anything did it. The worst case was after doing nothing for a couple minutes, I tried to change the channel. No response. The DVR was in the no-response mode for another five minutes, then fired the channel change.

I got the new version last week, and I'm not any happier with it than the previous version. There were no noticeable changes to any of the functionality of the software.

Ha, I have been VERY critical of how they handle software in general and have taken some heavy criticism for it. Everything you point out 100% bolsters my "contention." "Bugs" are issues that arise in field use that most times can't be caught in internal testing, NOT missing or screwed up basic functions. The customers should never be seeing such a lack of basic functioning like starting and stopping a show correctly. Their customers are frakking PAYING MONEY to alpha test their software; in the process missing out on the functionality they contracted for.

While there may be some choice in certain areas, others are far more limited. Yes I COULD drop my DVR service, but guess what? No alternative. Yes I can drop TWC entirely, but might as well almost toss the TV, OTA isn't an option as I'm a concrete canyon dweller.

BTW, I think some may think I'm slamming the programmers... not at all, it's them who manage them that are 100% at fault.

Whew, I needed that rant! I guess my only real hope is that Passport 2.5.066 seemed to go through a lot of time in the field before we got it... don't know for sure, but I'd bet we were the last to get that rollout. Like I said elsewhere, I'm hoping it gets a lot more cooked before I get it!

R_G,

Much of the discussion of bugs that I've read over the past 2 years regarding the 8300 centered on missing features in SARA being called bugs and surely you don't subscribe to that idea, do you? :)

In any case, not recording a complete program based on the IPG start/stop times is a bug IMHO, and a very big one at that. Usually I defend the programmers (who generally only follow the design specs), but in this case, don't you think they share some of the blame, along with managers for letting it out the door in that condition? Personally, I think TWC has shoved this out the door because they are up against a time crunch with the other initiatives they have going and the DST switch coming Mar 11.

Dave, missing features aren't really bugs although most folks may call them that. I DO strive to be specific and precise with the terminology I use; I very much use the traditional definition of "alpha" and "beta" and I KNOW I swim against the tide on that one!

"Blame" is a rather complex issue, don't you think? My inclination is most of it belongs with the manager level (speaking from a perspective on having been in exactly that position). Stuff that should NOT be let out being let out is 100% on the manager. Still, there is also a sort of culpability the programmers carry when it appears something that shouldn't be an issue is an issue... look at the situation of this drive works, that drive doesn't with external drives (which doesn't seem that tightly linked to either Passport or SARA). While I do not know for a fact, my somewhat informed guess is that the issue is an inability to consistently deal with multiple volumes. In this day and age, I find NO excuse to NOT properly deal with them. The "programmers" really should have got it right the first time given as how in no way is it any ecsoteric kind of function. Then again, it still comes back to the managers who didn't insist the programmers get it right before "releasing" it to the world. Throw into the mix what I think of as the proper care and feeding of a programmer, an art form that my guess these guys have no clue about.

And yes I do know all about time crunch issues, again from the view of the managers as I've faced the exact same thing. As a manager, the programmer who gave me such a basic bug would get a big demerit, but from the perspective of a customer, it's the manager gets the "blame.".

As for the DST issues, I think we have major lack of vision going on there. We know that specific date roll overs have long been the rule (and I wonder how many here actually know/realize that there are sections in the US that operate outside the time changes?). Very few thought it could change, so they left it "hard coded." As we know from the whole Y2K thing, "hard coding" did cause major issues. So now we are facing the exact same kind of situation? For God's sake, didn't ANYONE actually learn something from that? I'd bet the farm that it's going to cost them a lot more to deal with it as an issue NOW as opposed to dealing with it 6 years ago (see the connection to vision and business).

Anyway, sorry for the side trip...

R_G,

I agree, but I just can't leave programmers blameless when it appears that at least some of this is simply shoddy work.

The one thing I find somewhat consistent in all this is kc's reference to problems using the 2100. I haven't taken a look at the specs of this unit, but might it be limited on RAM and unable to download/store 7 days worth of IPG data along with whatever else Navigator needs?

As for DST, we are one of those areas that do not "celebrate" changing times, so we haven't had to deal with some of the issues. Since clocks appear to be sync'd on a daily basis during the IPG update, I'm still a little fuzzy on just what the DST issues are.

I know this is OT, but in the Air Force, we dealt with decade issues every 10 years, and everytime we thought we had everything considered, something we hadn't thought of would pop up 10 years later. I suffered through 3 decade changes and Y2K was actually a good thing because it forced the powers that be to spend the time/money for us to revamp entire databases from 2-digit to 4-digit year fields.

In retrospect it seems silly, but one has to understand that our first Univac 1050-II mainframe had only 32k of RAM and similarly limited storage capability. We used Fastrand drives that had 2 sectors of 80 character each. With such limitations, the 2 extra digits needed for a 4-digit year were a premium. Add to that the fact that early programmers simply didn't know any better. In less than 8,000 years we'll have another Y2K dilemma (5-digit years), but who among us will care? ;)

As for DST, we are one of those areas that do not "celebrate" changing times, so we haven't had to deal with some of the issues. Since clocks appear to be sync'd on a daily basis during the IPG update, I'm still a little fuzzy on just what the DST issues are.For PASSPORT, the IPG, time display, and most of the box was fine. The bug was in series recordings. Without going and re-reading the discussions -- IIRC, any series recording that held time was off by the hour. I think that the first time I had it (Nov 2003 SA8000HD), it took re-creating every series. Not sure, but I think it went through three iterations of reducing effects each time. The next time, I thought only the first set of shows (or only ones until the IPG rotated through). After the first, though, I always set them up to [This show] + [Any time] with no problems. Not sure whether [First-Run] or [This Channel], or the [Day of the Week] selections had any effect, but I used all of those options fairly extensively with no problems over the other DST changes until I gave up my box Memorial Day Weekend. We just deleted any duplicates of shows with unreliable NEW flags.

v/r,
C-F

I don't know about Navigator, but I thought the only remaining problem for Passport and SARA was the hard-coded Start Date?

I don't know about Navigator, but I thought the only remaining problem for Passport and SARA was the hard-coded Start Date?I know that is correct for SARA.

Funny, I thought that at one time you thought I was being too harsh on the programmers! Sloppy and shoddy work on their part would require action from the manager.

A Univac, wow! Some day I'm going to have to figure out what machine it was, but my first encounter was after the age of manually setting switches and the disk drive. The damn thing costs millions, was donated by GET to my college. Fed by punch cards. We had the really fast readers AND what I think was the very first disk drive, it was the size of the outside of the Tardis, cost hundreds of thousands and held something like 512k (ah, maybe it was an actual meg). I also recall the original Space War, took 1/2 to load from 2" mag tape! Even though it was the sixties, it played on this tiny B&W CRT that looked like those curved TVs from the fifties. Ah, enough nostalgia!

I'm still missing something about the time issue. I was fairly sure the DVR got it's "base" time and date data from the head end. Which would seem to make it immune to shifting S/DST. Guides in all likelihood just use "absolute" time, so today's 6 PM new show is the same as tomorrow's 6 PM news show with today being ST and tomorrow DST because the boxes base time/date being adjusted.

Aren't there some reservations that don't follow Washington? And wasn't it the 4 corners that refused to go along? Regardless, I do have fond memories of AZ from ancient times (after the dinosaurs!).

I'm sorry, to be clear, I was speaking to Passport in Fall 2003. Spring 2004 and afterward I used [Anytime] on everything and never worried again. I believe there were problems for some there as well. A quick search indicates it was still a problem for some in Fall 2005 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6491147&&#post6491147). There was a call to check for it in Spring 2006, but I did not see a responses.

I am not sure I understand the "hard-coded Start Date", but if it means setting a series recording to record at [08:00 PM] vice [Anytime], I think that is what got him. The [08:00 PM] would not make the transition.

v/r,
C-F

R_G,

Yes, we have had disagreements on programmer's responsibility from time to time. :) Being a former programmer, I know what it's like to program to specs only to find that the specs were no good or just plain wrong. I sat on both sides of the fence at different times, programming to specs and designing the specs. A programmer without direct subject knowledge can only do so much to make up for poor specs and that is were I think we find SARA and it's lack of features. Add in cableco's desire to minimize costs at the expense of features and you have a recipe for SARA. I'm sure there are plenty of programmers who are intimitately familiar with DVRs and desired functions. Most of them work for Tivo and some work for Aptiv. :)

Your comments about managers is spot on and had our previous discussion zeroed in on them instead of the programmers, I think our discussions would have turned out completely different. My only disagreement with anyone has always been placing the blame on programmers and calling them all kinds of names. Call the whole team, including the cableco, a bunch of names and I'm behind you all the way, just don't lay it all on programmers who are oftentimes paid only to code, not question specs.

Re Univac, we had switches that we could set to step through the code one instruction at a time and follow along with a code sheet, alter instructions on the fly, etc. This was all circa 1965 when the Air Force Supply System got their own mainframe computers, had their own cadre of operators/programmers, and controlled the specs and coding. We made plenty of mistakes because it was all learn as you go and we were adapting the supply system to automation at the same time we were learning that automation. They were fun times and if I could go back tomorrow, I would. :)

Re time issues. Consider a program like Battlestar Gallactica on The SciFi Channel. Today it is on Sunday night in the 11pm MST timeslot. In a few weeks, it will move to the 10pm timeslot. My SARA First Run and Any Time options will catch that (they catch changes now like NCIS tomorrow night) and record it regardless of DST, I believe because they now only key on Day and Title, not timeslot. However, I believe the previous option that I used (I forget what it was) keyed on Title, Day, and Timeslot. Since BSG moved, it got missed. In this example, I think the real issue if the place-holder that gets set for the next episode. That will get set the Sunday before DST and get reset the next day when the Sunday after DST appears in the IPG. When set, BSG is on at 11. When reset, it now needs to find it at 10 and I think the DST date determines how that works. Obviously, I could be wrong. :)

Re AZ tribes. Yes, some reservations do switch to DST in AZ, the Navajo Nation near the 4 Corners being one.

I am not sure I understand the "hard-coded Start Date", but if it means setting a series recording to record at [08:00 PM] vice [Anytime], I think that is what got him. The [08:00 PM] would not make the transition.That is a reference to the start of DST being hard-coded. As it is now, it's coded to start the 1st Sunday of April (I think) and it needs to be changed to the 2nd Sunday in March (or whatever it is). It actually needs to be fixed so it isn't hard-coded at all, since who knows when they'll mess with it again.

Got it, I was off in a different area entirely.

I am not sure about the [event] that got him in Fall 2005 was so much a [bug] as it was the box [not over-thinking]. Because it was doing exactly what he told it to do --> look at 08:00 PM on [foo] channel for [bar] program and record it, while ignoring [bar] program on any other channel or time.

That setting seems to be useful to get only the 08:00 PM [foo] showing of a syndicated show like 24, Buffy or Angel. Where there may be several showings at different times and channels, but the one at 08:00 PM on [foo] is sequentially running the season [you] missed.

Should the box adjust these times over DST as well?

v/r,
C-F

That is a reference to the start of DST being hard-coded. As it is now, it's coded to start the 1st Sunday of April (I think) and it needs to be changed to the 2nd Sunday in March (or whatever it is). It actually needs to be fixed so it isn't hard-coded at all, since who knows when they'll mess with it again.Dave, in one of your previous posts you were going to verify with your contact person at the Cable Company that the start date was hard-coded in SARA and that a new release was required. Did your contact person verify it?

RussB,

Sorry, have not heard back at all. I followed up Friday, but they are doing some kind of reorganizing here and he is up to his eyeballs in work, if he's even in town at the moment.

C_F,

That was one of the discussions way back when. Part of the problem is the different terms used by SARA, Passport, and Navigator. But, however you name the options, there are only so many ways to record:

If you tell it to record Program A at Time X, they can key on the title and modify the time for DST.

If you tell it to record Program A on Day B at Time X, they can key on title/day and still modify the time for DST.

If you tell it to record First Runs of Program A, they can key on title and the day/time doesn't matter.

If you tell it to record Program A at Any Time, they can again key on title and the day/time still doesn't matter.

The key to all this is the Title. I think in the past, SARA (and possibly Passport) keyed on the Day/Time and didn't always check the title, for whatever reason. When Program A changed from Time X to Time Y, it was missed because it recorded based on Time X and didn't look at the title.

However, from time to time, channels air Program A at both Time B and Time C. I see this a lot with stuff on SciFi and TNT. Oftentimes Program A will be aired back to back and then both will be repeated 2 hours later. Because the First Run conflicts with other recordings, I record a specific rerun. Oftentimes though, they will be aired back to back and then both will be repeated 2 hours later. What is a programmer to do? IMO, only I know which one I want to record and I need to take some responsibility to compensate for DST.

RussB,

Sorry, have not heard back at all. I followed up Friday, but they are doing some kind of reorganizing here and he is up to his eyeballs in work, if he's even in town at the moment.Thanks for the reply. Please keep us updated if you hear anything more. If anyone else can confirm that the start date was hard-coded in SARA and that a new release is required, please post the info. Does anyone know if this is also a problem with Digital Navigator?

Never thought I'd be asking for a rate increase, but I wonder if Time Warner would let us pay extra and keep our old Passport system. I'd even put up with screwed up DST for two weeks if absolutely necessary.

-barry

I doubt if we will be able to keep Passport, but with Comcast offering Tivo for an extra cost, TWC may follow. The only thing that may stop that, is that TWC is in a big push to Brand their product. This Branding means they want their IPG to look the same at every division as they feel it gives the customer a feeling of coming home to TWC no matter where they are. Now get real, how often do we go from city to city, state to state to get that warm and fuzzy feeling from the Cable IPG. I am sure the only people who do that are TWC employees who travel.

It would be interesting to see those polls that made them think that customers really wanted to see the same IPG when they travel from TWC city to TWC city on vacation.

I am sure the real reason it to have 1 platform system wide, as it would reduce cost on the front end and mean they would not have to work with outside vendors like Aptiv or SA for fixes and updates. Who knows next they may be building their own Cable Boxes.

Having only one platform also makes it easier for them to support and troubleshoot. That way, they don't need to keep their CSR's up to date on multiple platforms, since there's only one common platform. Makes it easier to walk grandma and Joe6Pack through the menus to get 'em back up and running.

Not saying it's better (because it's not), but that's the likely rationale.

Dave I DID "dabble" in programming back in the Basic era. I think I understood what it took to be a "good programmer" and thought I'd rather be the one that write the specs. I always kinda thought that I could do a good job at that as I had at least a familiarity with what it took to write the code. Plus I thought it good business sense to iterate between specs and coding anyway.

Ah, time zones... I'll admit sometimes I don't think about that; being AT TIMES the typical eastern jerk who thinks everything revolves around OUR time as it tends to be the main one quoted! I think Passport is pretty decent with Series recordings; only one small quirk it has is that something I had wanted to add as the 1:00 AM showing and not the 10:00 PM showing. To accomplish that I had to set the series recording from that 1:00 AM showing, I could not adjust it even though there was a supposed way to do it (the time setting). Honestly, the only thing that annoys me no end is data issues, as in the "new" flag. BTW, BSG HD season 3 begins this Saturday night on UnHD! AND I['m "re-loving" Atlantis from the beginning on HD.

I hear you Barry... but I daresay MDN might be a tad more solid before they roll it out here. There are MANY issues both good and bad by us choosing to live here, cable bandwidth sure as heel is very much on the positive side! Size of/signifigance of market SHOULD mean we don't have to do as much alpha testing as other markets may have to suffer through.

As for TiVo, I have LONG thought their best business model was to license to the cable guys and stay the hell out of the hardware market. I still feel that way; obviously they feel otherwise. It sure might have happened that they really tried and just gave up playing with the big guys in cable. While I'd certainly agree they have some better features, I find them only slightly better (as in what I get from TWC seems to be "good enough" for my needs). Paying a few extra bucks/month to be able to record automatically by director/actor just isn't worth it to me.

Having only one platform also makes it easier for them to support and troubleshoot. That way, they don't need to keep their CSR's up to date on multiple platforms, since there's only one common platform. Makes it easier to walk grandma and Joe6Pack through the menus to get 'em back up and running.

Not saying it's better (because it's not), but that's the likely rationale.
And TW can support from one common customer support location (which could be anywhere, even oversees) and not have to have region unique support locations. Another cost savings.
Dan

... how often do we go from city to city, state to state to get that warm and fuzzy feeling from the Cable IPG...I do :p

Since Memorial Day -> 5 Posts, 14 States, 17,000 miles in an RV with no SAT.
Although, I only got cable+DVR+Internet where available, when I could stay a couple weeks.

v/r,
C-F

so in Holly Springs my 8300HDDVR has been rebooting or downloading something for the past 45 minutes. Apparently this is happening all across Holly Springs, NC and the Rep I called had no idea what was going on. He only said that everyone was having the same problem in Holly Springs, he even said that turning off the box and unplugging it did not help those he spoke to earlier and so now I wait.......

could it be the Navigator download? could it be a complete f***ing mess? anyway, I give it another 15 minutes and I will be unplugging it to see what happens (xbox 360 Crackdown is keeping me busy for now.)

J

so in Holly Springs my 8300HDDVR has been rebooting or downloading something for the past 45 minutes. Apparently this is happening all across Holly Springs, NC and the Rep I called had no idea what was going on. He only said that everyone was having the same problem in Holly Springs, he even said that turning off the box and unplugging it did not help those he spoke to earlier and so now I wait.......

could it be the Navigator download? could it be a complete f***ing mess? anyway, I give it another 15 minutes and I will be unplugging it to see what happens (xbox 360 Crackdown is keeping me busy for now.)

JSounds like something else is going on. Cable usually downloads this stuff overnight. I wonder if something happened that makes all of the boxes want to reboot - this causes a massive load on their servers.

Re Univac, we had switches that we could set to step through the code one instruction at a time and follow along with a code sheet, alter instructions on the fly, etc. This was all circa 1965 when the Air Force Supply System got their own mainframe computers, had their own cadre of operators/programmers, and controlled the specs and coding. We made plenty of mistakes because it was all learn as you go and we were adapting the supply system to automation at the same time we were learning that automation. They were fun times and if I could go back tomorrow, I would. :)


Ya gotta be kidding......this from someone who has punched instructions in from the Univac computer's front panel for simple I/O test routines...ala Altair..

"Writing Code" for mid-60's era Univac computers was just that--carefully entering your "code" into paper "coding sheets"....scratch, scratch, erase, erase...
It then took many hours for someone (someone else if you were lucky) "typing" at the IBM Card keypunch machine--which was very slow, required very strong fingers and hence was murder for touch typists.

After carefully checking say the first few thousand IBM Cards (one line of code per card), you submit the several pounds of card decks and come back the next day to pick up your "source listing" (several inches of printout) to see how many syntax errors had to be fixed by repunching the guilty cards....REPEAT as necessary until it passes the Card Verification ('spell and syntax check') process.

[Even "moderate" sized programs would fill one drawer up to several file cabinets with card decks and source listings.]

THEN you could submit the one or more boxes of IBM Cards to see if it would either RUN (and hence good enough to save both the source listing and compiled object code on a tape image)....[On-line code entry to tape image came along later....]

Or CRASH....which it invariably would.....resulting in a briefcase sized printout called the "core dump" which showed the contents (in Octal) of each and every memory location. Knowing ONLY that there was an illegal operation (usually divide by zero) in a particular memory location, you could then manually "de-assemble" the Octal numbers back into their respective machine instructions so that you could then try to figure out which module/sub-routine/code line was "involved" in causing the problem....so that you could START the debug process....so the average debug "rate" was pretty pathetic....I remember chasing my tail for many days before I uncovered a problem in the compiler's MathPack--the COTAN function call was hozed for certain ranges of angles....

Even though I had access to my first Univac "Personal Computer" in 1967, it still took several minutes to many hours to "run" most programs (using "high level" code compilers), after spending perhaps half an hour or more to load the IBM Card decks. Of course, that time got much, much longer whenever the Card Reader decided to spew out a scrambled stream of 52-card pickup....

I don't miss it---nor the (itchy) paper tape that was later used to load vintage (1973) Intel 1702 EPROMS (for Intel 8008 uproc). Incredibly, they used ten ASCII characters on the tape for each 8-bit byte on the EPROM via the infamous "BNNNNPPPPF" format (Begin, Negative, Positive, Finish). I guess the excessive time to read the paper tape (via slow TTY reader) was helping to cover up how slow it was to actually program the EPROM.

If only we could do comm engineering without all that messy software......HAH!!!!!

Gack, did I start this look back?? While seriously O/T, I DO hope that nobody gets annoyed at this look back... it's still blows me away at how far we have come in such an incredibly short period of time.

WOW... I am pissed... not only did I lose all of my tv watching ability last night, nothing is new. No new updates, nothing. There were numbers going down and up throughout the whole event (that took all night!!!) I finally went to bed around 11pm and it still was doing this strange event, I even unplugged from wall and it went right back to doing the same thing. It finally stopped doing this and rebooted normally so I could watch the morning news.

This is frustrating because a few weeks ago TWC NC cut a fiber optic cable and the phone and internet were down for a day and then two weeks ago my phone was down all weekend as well as the internet.

I am definitely NOT a happy TWC customer

side note: I did miss the State of the Union Address last night so I should be really pissed (although I am not, I can just watcht the news or go online to see what I missed.)

J

Huh, every day I expect them to change my boxes. It hasn't happened yet. I'm in the burbs of Kansas near KC. I wonder when they will do the update.

I already took an early precaution and wrote down all of our recording list.

Is it true they do the regular STB's 1st? And then the DVRs?

So I was at Columbus Circle yesterday, looking at TWC's "Home to the Future" exhibit (which, incidentally, was fairly lackluster despite the presence of the new Navigator software on the cable boxes there.) But I went up to the Samsung store and played around with their TV sets.

On one TV in the back left corner of the store, I played around with it, and it had menus and graphics almost exactly like those of the new Navigator software, complete with TWC logo in the corner, On Demand and PPV menus, and so on. The only problems were that it was god-awful slow and some of the fonts were different.

The thing about it was there was no cable box in sight, and the remote clearly indicated I was controlling the TV itself.

Is this a preview of the iDCR/OCAP functionality that Samsung and TWC jointly announced at CES?

Is this a preview of the iDCR/OCAP functionality that Samsung and TWC jointly announced at CES?Sounds like it.

My DVR is still running Passport and my 2 SA2100 Std Boxes have Navigator.

Ah, very interesting! Thanks for keeping us in the loop with specifics!

Raleigh NC has just gotton Navigator.Any imput from Raleigh would be greatly appreciated.

Raleigh NC has just gotton Navigator.Any imput from Raleigh would be greatly appreciated.

In Raleigh here, but I still have Passport 2.6.002. I have the 8300HD DVR.

KzY thanks.The Raleigh website shows you have Navigator.When you get it would you give us feedback. SARA 1.87.24 here in Greensboro.

Man, was I living on Mars! When I saw the new Navigator preview on TWC website, I was initially impressed. It looked good and sounded like it has some nice new features. Then I started reading through posts like this one, and I can tell that I'm going to be really disappointed with it's features. I have Passport, and love simple little things like the auto-back-up when fast-forwarding thru commercials. I really can't understand how series recording doesn't allow you to select specific showtimes/days, cuz I really don't need 5 recordings per day of The Daily Show or The Colbert Report. I'm dreading this 'upgrade' now like a root canal.

If I found that my saved programs had been deleted by the software installation, I would totally go postal on the head of TWC CEO! It was one thing to lose everything in a harddrive crash about a year ago, that's a hardware defect that's nearly unavoidable. But a software update better be thoroughly tested on all equipment types for bugs before it's rolled out to the public.

I've been a TWC customer since 1985, and have nearly always been very pleased. But this sort of crap could get me to actually consider switching. I've never even considered satellite before cuz of the problem with weather interruptions. But, since I live in the city, I can count on the antenna for local HD channel reception. And, now DirecTV's new HD DVR allows recording from either satellite or the OTA antenna - which is a huge plus. That, on top of a harddrive with twice the capacity of the SA8300HD and a 90-minute buffer, has me thinking that DirecTV could be a very acceptable alternative to TWC if this new Navigator is as bad as it sounds.

:(

Ah, few weeks ago I read someone got 2.6.002, first obvious question was "trick play big fixed?" Answer came back "NO." But you say Pioneer, didn't ever hear of a Pioneer box doing DVR duty and running passport.

Yet another Lincoln alpha-tester here (8300HD) with a serious bug I haven't seen mentioned yet. Starting on Sunday, all of the series we have set up to record began silently failing with the message "Episode Not Available." I didn't discover this until last night (no Rome, Heroes, or Studio 60 for me this week, I guess). Manual recording still works.

I called in this morning and the rep said the only thing they can suggest is a hard reboot, so I'll try that tonight. He also said they have had numerous other complaints about this and they're working to track down the problem. Yippee.

I had resigned myself to putting up with the fugly interface and assorted other minor glitches in the new Navigator, but this one is a show-stopper - literally. Tivo is looking better all the time . . .

Ah, few weeks ago I read someone got 2.6.002, first obvious question was "trick play big fixed?" Answer came back "NO." But you say Pioneer, didn't ever hear of a Pioneer box doing DVR duty and running passport.The Pioneer Voyager 3510HD is just an HD STB; I had one in 2003 on TWC-KC, it ran PASSPORT. It would put the selected aspect control out over composite and S-Video (easier anamorphic recordings). Supposedly, it had better picture quality than the SA 8000HD, but I did not see much change on a 32" 4:3 CRT, so I went to the DVR. Pioneer floated a 4000 series DVR at one time, but it never seemed to materialize.

v/r,
C-F

Yet another Lincoln alpha-tester here (8300HD) with a serious bug I haven't seen mentioned yet. Starting on Sunday, all of the series we have set up to record began silently failing with the message "Episode Not Available." I didn't discover this until last night (no Rome, Heroes, or Studio 60 for me this week, I guess). Manual recording still works.

I called in this morning and the rep said the only thing they can suggest is a hard reboot, so I'll try that tonight. He also said they have had numerous other complaints about this and they're working to track down the problem. Yippee.

I had resigned myself to putting up with the fugly interface and assorted other minor glitches in the new Navigator, but this one is a show-stopper - literally. Tivo is looking better all the time . . .

Lincoln here to with a 8300HD.

I never used the series option on mine. At least not for anything I watch weekly I have messed around with it but not for anything I want to watch for sure. I guess I didn't trust it and know I am glad I didn't after reading this. I did notice last week on Wednesday or Thusday some funny stuff happening with the program guide. Certain channels didn't have anything listed and things like that. I did a hard reboot and it solved the issues.

A friend of mine here in Lincoln who was having the remote IR command issues and other issues told me TWC Nebraska recommends hard rebooting the box every couple of days to avoid issues and that they hope to push another software update in the next couple of weeks.

I was my understanding the the IR Commander was not supported by Navigator. I think they are wanting to push the DVR on to people who use the IR commander to operate their VCR. I also thought the Timer function of Navigator didn't work. I have tried to set my On and Off timer on my SA2100 and nothing happens.
I wasn't talking about IR Commander, I'm talking about simple IR commands sent by the DVR remote being buffered and then executed minutes later rapid-fire (as I posted earlier in this thread).

Bite my tongue never thought I would say this but glad i'm still on SARA 1.87.27.At least it works if not feature rich it's reliable.Hope Navigator gets fixed before they push it on us.For once i'm not jelious of PASSPORT users.Sorry guys.

Bite my tongue never thought I would say this but glad i'm still on SARA 1.87.27.At least it works if not feature rich it's reliable.Hope Navigator gets fixed before they push it on us.For once i'm not jelious of PASSPORT users.Sorry guys.Before you get too happy with your current SARA version, if you are TWC also, you should be getting an upgrade to 1.89.17.x before March 11th that will address DST issues. This comes with its own set of problems, e.g., losing scheduled programming. :)

Scarlett

This comes with its own set of problems, e.g., losing scheduled programming.I haven't lost anything since getting 1.89.18.1, can you elaborate?

Sorry my confusion, but as an FYI the IR Commander is not supported with Navigator, I understand this is getting some calls here in KC as I guess Grandma and Grandpa used it.

This will be a big problem for me. I use Passports VCR commander function to control my DVD recorder from te the SA3250HD STB here in Raleigh NC.

Did I understand someone to say there is NO timer or programmed turn-on function in Navigator either?

For what I am paying monthly, sat. will be a viable option. :rolleyes:

There are timer functions with Navigator, but with version Z that I have on my SA2100, they don't work. I understand they are going to fix in the next release.

But IR Commander will no longer be supported with Navigator, you have to set the VCR timer and when they fix the timer issue with Navigator you will be able to have it change channel to what you want to record, but the box won't control the VCR like Passport did with the IR Commander.

Thanks,
Is there a timer function in Navigator to have the STB power itself on in addition to switching to a preset program channel?

If so, my DVD recorder has an auto record start function when signal appears at its a particular input.
:confused:

I haven't lost anything since getting 1.89.18.1, can you elaborate?In the Cable Group for Austin, it was reported by numerous customers that all of their scheduled programs were lost after the upgrade. I was out of town when the upgrade occurred, so I missed the initial flurry of activity. The only program that I had scheduled to record that failed to do so--at least so far as I can determine--was "Prison Break." On reflection, I have had to add others back to the schedule as well, but I had been having to do that before the upgrade--some of my "season pass" recordings simply were not highlighted. So, that was the problem to which I referred, but I don't know how much can be attributed strictly to the upgrade.

Additionally, another customer posted this particular problem:

The upgrade not only killed our 8000 SD DVR, but a lot of others too.
As one tech said, there were so many dead boxes, they had a form to
fill out.Thankfully, both of my 8300HD DVRs survived the upgrade, and everything now seems to be working quite well. Obviously, others were not so fortunate.

One of the best things about the upgrade, at least for me, is the fact that we no longer have 9-day "placeholders" for scheduled programs--they now appear at 7-day intervals, and on the correct dates, even though there is no detailed description for them until the 8th or 9th day. Just makes for a less confusing and less cluttered program list.

Scarlett

Scarlett,

Thanks for the clarification. Fortunately, I've never lost my scheduled recordings, so that must have something to do with how the cableco sends the upgrade.

I assume you've been reading the SARA thread to see what has changed in 1.89, things like place-holders, Block options, etc. If you haven't downloaded the lastest User's Guide, 1.89 seems to be in-sync with it.

Wonder if the issue is somehow related to 8000's?

Scarlett,

Thanks for the clarification. Fortunately, I've never lost my scheduled recordings, so that must have something to do with how the cableco sends the upgrade.

I assume you've been reading the SARA thread to see what has changed in 1.89, things like place-holders, Block options, etc. If you haven't downloaded the lastest User's Guide, 1.89 seems to be in-sync with it.I have been reading the SARA thread, and I read your post on the differences. Thanks! I have not downloaded the latest User's Guide yet, but I plan to do so. As I said, the upgrade did not particularly affect me adversely, and everything seems to be working well for now. Just hope I can say the same after we get Navigator here in Austin! :)

Scarlett

Wonder if the issue is somehow related to 8000's?I don't know whether any 8300 boxes were affected--the OP didn't specify. He just said there was a huge "death" toll, to the extent that forms were necessary in order to get exchanges made. Apparently, the symptom that prompted so many to exchange their boxes was the continuous looping of the boot sequence. I have had that same symptom on three occasions, and in each case I was told it was a failed hard drive. Whatever the cause, they just didn't work any longer!

Scarlett

Just got SARA 1.89.17.1 and thank god finally some decent featuresI'm in Greensboro NC.The new version has the play from beginnng while recording feature without begining kicked out when recording ends.HD markers and new episode information.Fouth fast forward and rewind speed.New this channel this date recording options.My manual recordings working better.Faster ipg speed.SIGH just when SARA is getting close to PASSPORT they are gonna spring Navigator on us some time in the future.Guess they want to tease SARA users before NAVIGATOR slaps us in the face.Does NAVIGATOR have any of the features i mentioned.SARA has begin to become feature rich before they take it from us.

This morning's Lincoln Journal Star has an article on Navigator:

http://www.journalstar.com/news/local/doc45cd0b566dd31679004395.txt

Here's the excerpts:

Cable customers frustrated with change
By JEFF KORBELIK / Lincoln Journal Star
Saturday, Feb 10, 2007 - 12:07:15 am CST

Donna Adams turned on her television at 2:54 p.m. Thursday afternoon.

Unable to bring up the recorded programs on her digital video recorder (DVR), she opted to watch live TV instead.

She pushed the button on her remote and her TV responded — eight minutes later.
She timed it.

As if that wasn’t bad enough, her DVR crashed after 10 viewing minutes.

Sound familiar?

It does to Tony Young, who continues to have problems with the search engines on his high-definition DVR and digital cable box.

Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don’t.

“You get used to it after a while,” said Young, who pays about $100 a month for his TV service. “But getting used to a mediocre product is a little bit … no, it’s incredibly frustrating.

“We don’t have another option for competition. This is forced on you.”

Adams and Young are two of many Time Warner Cable digital cable customers disgruntled with the company’s decision to change its channel guide last fall, dropping the contracted Passport in favor of company-created Navigator.

The change affected 46,000 digital cable subscribers. Time Warner has 110,000 total television subscribers in Southeast Nebraska.

Complaints ranged from the guide itself — ugly graphics, incomplete information, etc. — to problems with cable boxes after the software was loaded into them, causing some subscribers to reboot one or more times a day.

“We know it needs to get better,” said Beth Scarborough, president of Time Warner’s Nebraska division. “Comments are not falling on deaf ears.”

Time Warner has a “war room” set up in its offices at 16th Street and Old Cheney Road, where engineers, technicians and customer support staff work on solving problems.

So how did Time Warner reach this point in the first place?

In a letter sent to subscribers last summer, Scarborough said the cable guide was changing to make it compatible with other software programs coming down the line, such as caller ID for those who have Time Warner’s phone and digital cable TV service.

What Scarborough failed to mention in her letter was Nebraska was the first Time Warner division to introduce Navigator.

Time Warner is the nation’s second-largest cable company with more than 18 million subscribers.

“My brother in Kansas City called to say they were getting Navigator and wanted to know how we liked it,” said subscriber Kevin Thierolf, who spends about $100 a month .

He didn’t have a favorable report. One of his biggest complaints was technical — his box was no longer compatible to the DVI cables he used for his HDTV.

“I know you can’t anticipate how everybody is going to use it,” Thierolf said. “It’s hard. But there were some obvious things.”

Such as listing whether a show is a repeat or not (now fixed) or having the fast-forward function revert back a second or two after it stopped, the way Passport did.

Scarborough said Time Warner would not have introduced the software if the company didn’t believe it was ready to go. It introduced the new guide to its employees before rolling it out to subscribers.

“Our experience at that point was that it was good to go,” she said. “It was good enough to go to market with.”

Instead, the system paled in comparison with its predecessor. It prompted Scarborough to write another letter last month thanking digital and DVR customers for their patience.

“… the conversion was a highly complex exercise and was not without some inconvenience, re-educations, recalibration of settings, and for some, even downright disappointment.”

Time Warner continues to tinker with the system and urges customers having problems with the software or their boxes to call customer service.

“We knew it was going to be a challenge to implement,” Scarborough said. “Maybe we didn’t position it in the right way. We’re sorry for that. It wasn’t our intention to deceive.”

Still, it may take a while for Time Warner to get back into the good graces of customers such as Adams, who spends $200 a month with Time Warner on TV, phone and Internet service.

“They’ve lost my loyalty,” Adams said. “We wouldn’t tolerate anything else in our house performing like this. We’re stuck, and that’s what’s frustrating.”

Reach Jeff Korbelik at 473-7213 or jkorbelik@journalstar.com.

This whole exercise in Lincoln reminds me of a product development philosophy that was talked about in the 90's - it was called a "Living Lab". But when people were talking about that development environment the participants, at least, were willing participants and there were exit strategies for those participants.

If employees had first tested this stuff, then one wonder's if those same employees HAVE BEEN FIRED!!!

One commenter to that article who claimed to be one of the [test] employees -- seems to no longer work for TWC...

v/r,
C-F

This whole exercise in Lincoln reminds me of a product development philosophy that was talked about in the 90's - it was called a "Living Lab". But when people were talking about that development environment the participants, at least, were willing participants and there were exit strategies for those participants.

If employees had first tested this stuff, then one wonder's if those same employees HAVE BEEN FIRED!!!

And doesn't a lot of this stuff sound like dev (pre-alpha) level software?

And doesn't a lot of this stuff sound like dev (pre-alpha) level software?Yes - and it also sounds UNBELIEVABLE!

Thanks for posting that article above from the Nebraska paper. The article and the 100+ reader comments is very intersting. I feel very sorry for the poor folks in Nebraska that are putting up with basically being 'beta testers' for the earliest versions of Navigator.

Two issues at play here. The first is bad enough for those used to Passport and it's options. The second is downright painful. It might not be so bad if it actually worked. :(

!. They replaced Passport with something else.

2. The something else has bugs and missing features.

putting up with basically being 'beta testers' for the earliest versions of Navigator. BETA - HELL it's pre Alpha!!!!!!!!

Does Navigator have the play from beginning while recording option that PASSPORT and SARA have?

Does Navigator have the play from beginning while recording option that PASSPORT and SARA have?

Couple of things...

One guy in one of the "testing in the field" areas said he got it on his non DVR box but not his DVR box. Given what we are hearing from those "in the field" trials, it is quite apparent that nothing is final or set in mud. Plus, we already know that even for the same software platform, things can roll out by 6 months or more in various parts of the country (people were using the current rev I have at least 6 months before I got it).

So the specific feature you are curious about may or may not be in current revs. Or it may or may not come 3, 6, 9, 12, 16, or 24 months down the line.

One could ALMOST make a case for us doing some industrial espionage and unearth their development/project management/software specification documents! tmz.com just does NOT have the focus we need<g>!

One could ALMOST make a case for us doing some industrial espionage and unearth their development/project management/software specification documents! tmz.com just does NOT have the focus we need<g>!
Who could we enlist to do that? ;)

Yes it does but it is called "Restart". I am sure this is because TWC is going to launch it's Restart project that will allow non DVR boxes have limited DVR like function. They will be able to restart selected programs they are watching as long as the show has not ended. So if you come home and the last 5 min of the Evening News is on you can Restart it from the beginning. TWC has been working out the details with the Networks on copyright issues. The 1 big limit is you can't FF with Restart.Actual TW Name for this is "Start-Over". We've had it here in Rochester, NY for several months. Problem is that NONE of the major networks are allowing it (yet). We do get on many of the "cable nets" (CNN, Showtime, etc.) - but, so far, none of the HD channels.

Dave,

Just what does a network have to do in order to enable this feature? Can't they see that happy viewers translate into loyal viewers?

Dave,

Just what does a network have to do in order to enable this feature? Can't they see that happy viewers translate into loyal viewers?The networks just have to get over their paranoia and sign up. It's probably also an issue with the program "owners" (the production companies) as well.

I believe that there are just a few places where this is being tried. We are supposedly the 2nd test market, but without programs that people really want to watch, how can you "test the market"?

I've seen a TW presentation on "Start-Over". They have an elaborate system of "license servers" (so to speak) where not only certain stations (CNN, Showtime, WRC, etc) have "license", but individual programs also have permissions. So it is set up to include all the Fox programs, for example, except for (say) "24". Right now, it just seems to be an issue of getting the permissions.

It's interesting - it is Time Warner doing this, but HBO is not on the list, while Showtime is! But CNN is there along with Fox News!

We have start over here in Greensboro NC also.However SARA 1.89.17.1 in the dvr software lets you start a show from the beginning and watch it to the end without being kicked out.You can fast forward rewind or pause useing this dvr sara option.Caller id has been here a few months also.Just wondering if Navigator dvr software has this option.

We have start over here in Greensboro NC also.However SARA 1.89.17.1 in the dvr software lets you start a show from the beginning and watch it to the end without being kicked out.You can fast forward rewind or pause useing this dvr sara option.Caller id has been here a few months also.Just wondering if Navigator dvr software has this option."Start-Over" does not need (or use) the DVR. It works with any SA STB that uses SARA - for example the SA3250.

I realise Start Over does not need a dvr.However the 1.89.17 sara software has added a option to play from beginning of a program that is recording without being kicked out to live when recordin finishes and you are still watching.We have start over also here in Greensboro.This is a completely differnt option than the non dvr startover.Just wondered if Navigator has the dvr play frombeginning option. Sara 189.17.1

I realise Start Over does not need a dvr.However the 1.89.17 sara software has added a option to play from beginning of a program that is recording without being kicked out to live when recordin finishes and you are still watching.We have start over also here in Greensboro.This is a completely differnt option than the non dvr startover.Just wondered if Navigator has the dvr play frombeginning option. Sara 189.17.1Actually the "play from the beginning" and no "kick-out on live" came with SARA version 1.88.xx.xx. Perhaps your system never had that version and went directly to 1.89.xx.xx, skipping 1.88. I've never heard anyone in these forums refer to these as "DVR StartOver". Just a novel use of the term I guess.

There are billboards all over KC promising Called Id Spring 2007. So guess that is what is next with Navigator. It is interesting to see these features in SARA since it is on its way out the door just like Passport. That only confirms my feeling that Navigator is really SARA based.

SARA does Caller ID?

SARA does Caller ID?I suppose it is dependent on the system and (of course) your having TW digital phone. But yes, SARA can do Caller ID (and so can some of the dish systems too). I've got it.

Actually the "play from the beginning" and no "kick-out on live" came with SARA version 1.88.xx.xx. Perhaps your system never had that version and went directly to 1.89.xx.xx, skipping 1.88. I've never heard anyone in these forums refer to these as "DVR StartOver". Just a novel use of the term I guess.

Well, we did have more than one poster claiming that VOD was SDV.

Seems to be a topic in this thread, but the more I think about it, the more "buts" come into play. As in every time you posit motivation for it, you make a hypothesis and immediately thereafter you think "but..." Back when the concept was first floated, I though the content guys would be 100% behind it as it gave them far more control than VCR/DVRs. BUT we see them seemingly fighting the concept now. We see it's the distribution channel guys talking about it (cable, satellite) BUT it's hugely costly in infrastructure AND may herald an end to folks paying for DVR service.

SARA has had caller ID for close to year now.We also have non dvr Start over here in Greensboro NC. Had Sara 1.87.27.2 now 189.17.1.Both versions had caller ID and Start over.Belive we were the third division to get these features.

And SARA is only going away on TWC, as is Passport.

SARA has had caller ID for close to year now.

Passport has had caller ID for a lot longer than that, just not with Time Warner.

http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA6266486.html

Video caller ID application hits S.C. TV screens

Karen Brown
June 29, 2004

Integra5 has teamed up with South Carolina cable provider Comporium Communications to deploy its Visual Caller ID system, allowing digital cable subscribers to see an incoming voice caller's number and name on their TV screens. The information pops up approximately a second before the first ring.

In the Comporium deployment, the system is integrated with Pioneer Digital Technologies Inc.'s Passport interactive programming guide. Using a remote control, the subscribers can modify the incoming call display on their TV screens, review the last calls received or disable the display. The system can support multiple phone lines and multiple TVs in a household.

I saw it a year ago, and it was pretty basic, but it worked. No one that I have asked at Time Warner had any clue what I was talking about.

If they had known, maybe TWC wouldn't have spent all that time and money writing their own Navigator. (Of course Caller ID is not the only reason for Navigator, but it seems to be a big one that they are marketing).

Personally, I'd rather have a basic guide that records reliably, and reacts properly when I press the remote. The extra bells and whistles are nice, but not at the expense of the overall system performance. If I am ever forced to switch to Navigator, it's bye bye TWC, hello TiVo Series 3. Hey, that rhymes. :)

Kat.

I suspect that caller ID has nothing to do with the DVR operating system (SARA, Passport, or Navigator)I believe that it is a separate application loaded onto the cable STBs.

TWC-SC has been a test site, with special software modifications for SDV (Switched Digital Video)
and apparently also Caller ID.

Hi, I am a Lincoln "Beta" (at least seems like beta) Navigator user.

One problem that I haven't seen addressed that really troubles me is the Navigator software is a external recorder killer, for example Windows Media Center, Tivo, VCR's with IR blasters, etc.

The Navigator software on non-dvr SA boxes will "ignore" ir commands that are presented exactly at the top of the hour.

I have complained to customer service a dozen times, the last three times the reps told me that TW cable service does not support any external recording device that needs to change the channel on the cable box.

For background here is more info:

I have a 8300HD DVR and a SA HD non dvr box, both have the new Navigator, I have a Tivo connected to the non-dvr box.

Whenever the Tivo attempts to change the channel exactly on the hour the cable box ignores the IR command, if it tires at any other time it works perfectly.

I actully have a recording form Tivo that show the Tivo entering in the channel numbers just as the clock changed from x:59 to X:00 (can't remember right now what hour it was) all three numbers for the destination channel show up in the navigator banner and the channel never changes. Occasionally when the Tivo enters three digits it will ignore the first one or two then change to the last digit, thus recording the wrong channel.

I beleive the box ignores all IR commands while it retrieves and updates the guide data on the top of the hour.

I really think this is by design as a Tivo killer.

I can get around it by changing all recordings to start one minute early, but that is real pain.

I have also produced this same behavior with a Windows MCE box with a IR blaster.

Any else experience similiar problems??

Sorry for the long rant, but this new Navigator software really blows.

When do you think TWC will "beta" test the OCAP version for Moto Boxes?

Sorry for the long rant, but this new Navigator software really blows.

Indeed that's frakked up! Of course, you COULD say that pushes you to buying into the Series 3 TiVo product, which will cost you, but good!

More and more I'm happy I'm in a big huge urban market, even in my town, stuff gets deployed in the outer boroughs first before I get it. At least it tends to be beta by the time I get it, not the alpha stuff you guys are field testing for TWC!

HURAYY maybe us SARA users and the rest of the PASSPORT crowd can keep our software another year.(FINGERS CROSSED) SARA 1.89.17.1 and loveing it

SARA 1.89.17.1 and loveing it.You're using SARA and lovin' it? Don't get out much, do you :D?

It does sound as if Navigator might be worse. I wouldn't have believed it possible if I hadn't heard it here :).

When i say loveing it i meant in comparison to NAVIGATOR.I have had SARA since TWC has had DVR.The first SARA software sucked.Over the years enhancements came.It was a slow process but when they came they were well tested and worked for the most part.Is SARA Tivo heck no.It's just now gettin close to PASSPORT minus a good search engine.I would just hate to start the process over with a featureless or flawed Navigator just when Sara 1.89 is makeing it a real dvr.

You're using SARA and lovin' it? Don't get out much, do you :D?

It does sound as if Navigator might be worse. I wouldn't have believed it possible if I hadn't heard it here :).

Boy I seem to read a lot of "it's wonderful" posts about SARA that I thought maybe I might have dreamed up your post from when you had to take it! Then I read about Navigator being a re-branding of SARA, that it's functionality is based on SARA and I cringe.

I'm TRYING to be a tad more zen about the issue... but I've heard "use the force" too much recently!

Navigator is not SARA.TWC wrote the SW package and it shows.SARA is not TIVO but the 1.89 has made it into a very useable dvr.It still lacks a proper search engine but many past complaints have been addressed.Both passport and sara being removed.When I get Navigator and I hope it's in the distant uture unless it's vastly improved I will let you know the differences.Who ever started the Navigator is SARA rumor is dead wrong.

Who ever started the Navigator is SARA rumor is dead wrong.While I believe that has been shown to be true, Navigator is still very SARA-esque in how it functions and how it presents menus, etc. We all know there is an underlying OS and SARA, Passport, and Navigator are just different interfaces to the same basic functions. Each provides it's own set of options/added functions and right now Navigator seems to be in 3rd place.

While I believe that has been shown to be true, Navigator is still very SARA-esque in how it functions and how it presents menus, etc. We all know there is an underlying OS and SARA, Passport, and Navigator are just different interfaces to the same basic functions. Each provides it's own set of options/added functions and right now Navigator seems to be in 3rd place.

Take a look at the 'Access Menu' we have had in Austin for a year or more running on top of SARA:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/austin/products/cable/etv/accessmenu.html

The features definitely look like they were developed as practice for Navigator - maybe using the same DevTools?

xnappo

You should also mention that Austin is home to ALTICAST, who has been developing
OCAP software for many years now--in order to provide a standardized API for IPGs and other S/W.

OCAP middleware runs "on top of/within" S/A's PowerTV RTOS....which is common to SARA and PASSPORT.

And that TWC-Austin was the first TWC demo location for SDV (Switched Digital Video)......
and apparently also some sort of new Navigation Guide---probably under OCAP....

So how well does this Beta (Alpha?) software work????
Is the new IPG ready for Prime Time????
And which channels are SDV???

One thing is true SARA works 95% of the time without any faults.Can the same be said of Navigator.Also Sara is fast and smooth not slow and full of glitches that Navigator has. SARA 189.17.1

Check out this article that appeared in the Lincoln Journal Star. Time Warner might be getting in some trouble for the release of Navigater in Lincoln Nebraska

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/02/22/news/local/doc45dce8551dcd2874905526.txt

Mine is 2.3.15AA-ptv Nov 27 2006, 17:26:33

I don't know if they have tried another update since the failed one last week. It really made a lot of people mad, I was at work so it didn't bother me but I did notice the box was frozen before I left for work at 4:45 AM. Most people didn't get it straightened out till around 8 that morning or at least that is what others have told me.

They have updated things since Nov 27th so I don't know if the date on there is relevant. I have been home when they pushed updates out since then. On the DVR the most noticable thing is that they have a warning if you are running out of room. I don't think they had this before but I may not have come close (I don't remember for sure).



There was an update for Navigator on my 8300HD box this afternoon here in Lincoln. The version is now 2.3.19AB-ptv Jan 26 2007, 15:22:39.

I haven't noticed anything different yet but will post anything if I do.

There was an update for Navigator on my 8300HD box this afternoon here in Lincoln. The version is now 2.3.19AB-ptv Jan 26 2007, 15:22:39.

I haven't noticed anything different yet but will post anything if I do.


How do I figure out what version I have ?

How do I figure out what version I have ?


Hold the SEL button down on the remote until the little mail icon starts to blink on the cable box. Then hit info (on the remote). This should bring up some text with info on the screen. Use the page +/- button until you find the page labeled "Software Versions". The number under the one labeled Res: is the version of Navigator you have. To get out of it press Exit.

I live in Lincoln and I also have an 8300HD DVR. I just check my version and it says
ptv V 6.14.80.3sp. Wed Dec 20 2006. and I haven't seen anything different. There is supposed to be a big update for Friday. We'll see what happens.

Check out this article that appeared in the Lincoln Journal Star. Time Warner might be getting in some trouble for the release of Navigater in Lincoln Nebraska

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/02/22/news/local/doc45dce8551dcd2874905526.txt

Interesting article. Hey all you Nebraskans out there...Please be sure to let us know how Friday's upgrade works out.

Check out this article that appeared in the Lincoln Journal Star. Time Warner might be getting in some trouble for the release of Navigater in Lincoln Nebraska

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/02/22/news/local/doc45dce8551dcd2874905526.txt
Ya can't make this stuff up, can ya? :D

Check out this article that appeared in the Lincoln Journal Star. Time Warner might be getting in some trouble for the release of Navigater in Lincoln Nebraska


It is absolutely amazing to me that the only thing anyone ever lists as a "new" feature is caller ID on the TV. If that's all they're pushing out that is new (and it isn't even that new) they should have just stuck with Passport...

And have you gotten "Caller Id on TV" yet, or are they just trying to get you and IPG that works. I have not seen any new features on my SA2100 that is worth the upgrade, at least ones that work.

I'm not actually in a TWC area right now, but my wife is (long story). She has an 8300HD, so I've mostly been hanging out here to find out more about Navigator so we can decide whether we want to risk the upgrade when it comes or keep the S3 TiVo I have when we merge the household back together.

When I said the caller id feature isn't new, I meant the concept of having it on the TV isn't new. I know of DirecTV receivers that have had it for years as well as a little box you could hook up between your cable feed and your TV to inject the caller id information.

I've been reading for several months now about all the problems with Navigtor. I currently have an SA 8300HD box using Passport. I think I read somewhere at the beginning of this thread that Navigator will be replacing SARA and Passport on ALL DVRs by the end of this year. Is this still the game plan for TWC?

To others in the Kansas City area, did your units get the upgrade? I received all the literature in the mail, one of which said my DVR would be upgraded within 1 week, and I still have passport. Don't get me wrong though, from the sounds of it I should be happy they haven't upgraded me.

OCAP middleware runs "on top of/within" S/A's PowerTV RTOS....which is common to SARA and PASSPORT.

And that TWC-Austin was the first TWC demo location for SDV (Switched Digital Video)......
and apparently also some sort of new Navigation Guide---probably under OCAP....

So how well does this Beta (Alpha?) software work????
Is the new IPG ready for Prime Time????
And which channels are SDV???

Ah, that's interesting although it also COULD be that Passport can't run with an OCAP enabled RTOS...

But my guess is the answer to that doesn't really matter, I think they (and every cable system) has more need for converting to SDV in significant ways. The business "threat" is from satellite systems touting 150 channels of HD AND Verizon's FIOS initiative, not the limitation on the ability to offer new services to extract even more money from customers.

As for the last 3 questions, I'd say:

1. pretty much like alpha software from what I read
2. ready or not, it will happen; besides "ready" is highly subjective
3. none for any Passport users

Check out this article that appeared in the Lincoln Journal Star. Time Warner might be getting in some trouble for the release of Navigater in Lincoln Nebraska

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/02/22/news/local/doc45dce8551dcd2874905526.txt

Ha, I can't tell you how many times I've suggested folks take their grievances to the local franchising authority and NOT to spew anger on forums such as this!

Ah, that's interesting although it also COULD be that Passport can't run with an OCAP enabled RTOS...

But my guess is the answer to that doesn't really matter, I think they (and every cable system) has more need for converting to SDV in significant ways. The business "threat" is from satellite systems touting 150 channels of HD AND Verizon's FIOS initiative, not the limitation on the ability to offer new services to extract even more money from customers.

As for the last 3 questions, I'd say:

1. pretty much like alpha software from what I read
2. ready or not, it will happen; besides "ready" is highly subjective
3. none for any Passport users
Earlier this week, my SA3250HD (Firewire source) was upgraded--
It has PowerTV (low level RTOS), OCAP (middleware) and Passport (IPG) in the list of OS's....
and (surprise!!!!) looks and acts exactly the same as before:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/6469.html#POST32111

I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop and flood us with HD channels.....

It is absolutely amazing to me that the only thing anyone ever lists as a "new" feature is caller ID on the TV. If that's all they're pushing out that is new (and it isn't even that new) they should have just stuck with Passport...It should be noted that their caller-id on TV requires that you be using cable phone service :D.

It should be noted that their caller-id on TV requires that you be using cable phone service :D.
AT&T bundles U-Verse and Homezone with Cingular Cell Phones.
Verizon bundles FiOS with their Cell Phones.

So far, TWC-SD is MISSING a Cell Phone affiliate....

However, this is changing--TWC offers SPRINT in (at least) Austin, Rayleigh and Kansas City:
http://www.teleclick.ca/2007/02/time-warner-cable-begins-reselling-sprint-cell-phone-plans/
http://www.timewarnercable.com/austin/products/wireless/default.html
http://news.com.com/Time+Warner+Cable+begins+cell+phone+trials/2100-1039_3-5648954.html
and soon TWC-Nebraska (currently running new Digital Navigator) will offer Cell Phone service:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/cellphone/default.html

Surely CALLER ID for both VoIP and Cell Phone can't be too far away for all of TWC....

And eventually, I would predict that FCC will establish rules whereby CALLER ID will be displayed
for ANY Cell Phone service--cuz that's the sort of thing they do.....

Riversid Guy

I would check your version of Passport again as from what I understand 2.5.066 does not support the new daylight savings time. We just got 2.6.002 here in KC as it has daylight support.

Not sure why you think I need to check it again... TWC is very definitely following the same path other updates have gone... first they roll it out in Staten Island, then Queens, and finally Manhattan. Read a post from someone in SI, and they got 2.6.002 a few days ago. I expect we'll get it next week.

Funny, I said I THOUGHT it was all about DST and someone did jump all over me that I was making unfounded speculation... or something to that effect.

The real bottom line is that NONE of us have any real inside knowledge of what's up, so the best ANY of us can do is use some common sense and logic to speculate.

AT&T bundles U-Verse and Homezone with Cingular Cell Phones.
Verizon bundles FiOS with their Cell Phones.

So far, TWC-SD is MISSING a Cell Phone affiliate....

However, this is changing--TWC offers SPRINT in (at least) Austin, Rayleigh and Kansas City:
http://www.teleclick.ca/2007/02/time-warner-cable-begins-reselling-sprint-cell-phone-plans/
http://www.timewarnercable.com/austin/products/wireless/default.html
http://news.com.com/Time+Warner+Cable+begins+cell+phone+trials/2100-1039_3-5648954.html
and soon TWC-Nebraska (currently running new Digital Navigator) will offer Cell Phone service:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/cellphone/default.html

Surely CALLER ID for both VoIP and Cell Phone can't be too far away for all of TWC....

And eventually, I would predict that FCC will establish rules whereby CALLER ID will be displayed
for ANY Cell Phone service--cuz that's the sort of thing they do.....
Well, as far as I know, TWCs cable boxes don't hook up to any phone line, so how would the cable box know who's calling? Obviously, if you're a TWC phone customer, they'll know when someone is calling you and be able to pipe that info to your cable box, which is what they're doing. But when you're with another provider?

And CID-on-screen for a cellphone strikes me as iffy. What if the cellphone owner isn't home, but his spouse is? Would he want his incoming calls plastered over her Days of Our Lives?

And eventually, I would predict that FCC will establish rules whereby CALLER ID will be displayed
for ANY Cell Phone service--cuz that's the sort of thing they do.....Having worked on cell phones (and basestation software, for that matter) and having some familiarity with the infrastructure of those systems, believe when I tell you that it would be technically challenging to display caller-id from cellular calls on your television screen via your cable STB. (Hell, the data structures involved in the air protocols don't even have a field for caller name even if it was there on the POTS call). Also, displaying caller-ID is hardly a matter of public welfare--it's a bells-and-whistles type of thing. I sincerely doubt that the FCC would involve itself in legislating requirements for pure convenience features.

Navigator's support of caller-ID from cable phones is a no-brainer; the incoming call alerts are flowing over the same broadband cable that television service is on. They don't even need a telephone connection on the box.

Not sure how we got disconnected, I really don't remember who took exception to my "speculation" but I was not trying to say it was you (far as i know, we both said essentially the same thing)! I did find out that Passport kept "series recordings by time as GMT offsets," so 100% it would have to rev for the new DST (one of my annoying quirks is that I want to know the how and why).

There was an update for Navigator on my 8300HD box this afternoon here in Lincoln. The version is now 2.3.19AB-ptv Jan 26 2007, 15:22:39.

I haven't noticed anything different yet but will post anything if I do.


The only things I have noticed different so far are that in the channel guide it tells you if a program is new now as opposed to just telling you if it was a repeat or not. Also when surfing channels it doesn't seem to skip (or change two channels at a time) when you press the channel +/- buttons.

I never really had any problems with random reboots or latency with the guide or search functions. I have only had these a couple times, others have had it worse from what I have heard and read here, so I can't really say if these problems were solved or not for sure.

If I do notice anything else or hear anything from my friends I will post it. I will ask a couple people at work tomorrow that have different boxes than mine if they notice any difference.

I live in Lincoln and I also have an 8300HD DVR. I just check my version and it says
ptv V 6.14.80.3sp. Wed Dec 20 2006. and I haven't seen anything different. There is supposed to be a big update for Friday. We'll see what happens.


So...did anyone get the "big update" on Friday???

So...did anyone get the "big update" on Friday???

I don't think I got an update on Friday. The software versions still said the same thing. I haven't had any problems with it locking up without rebooting. At one point it took me 9 mins to go to a channel in the guide hit record and go to another channel. It should have took 9 sec. at the most. The interface still looks the same and it still doesn't tell you if a program is new.

In a nutshell, performance has improved for me, but that's about all. I don't know if it was from an update or not.

I got the update last week, and have not noticed much of an improvement. I had it reboot right after the new software was loading by just moving around in the guide. I don't notice any improvements in the speed, everything still seems very sluggish.

does the interface look like the one in the Navigator PDF link that someone posted?

General consensus from friends with Navigator here in Lincoln: nothing has changed significantly.

General consensus from friends with Navigator here in Lincoln: nothing has changed significantly.

Kind of the same reaction I got. Most everyone I talked to didn't even know an update went through. Like I said in an earlier post I can't testify to whether or not it solved the lag problems and stuff.

Does anyone know if you will be able to connect an external SATA drive and retain all functionality with Navigator? I'm on Passport right now and I don't want to lose the live TV DVR functions, hence no SATA drive yet.

Did the City Council meeting happen yesterday? Did anybody here attend? How did it go?

It has been pretty quiet around here lately, is it safe to assume that the major problems with Navigator have been fixed? Or has everyone left the room to sign up for satellite already?

What are the problems and annoyances that you are still having with Navigator? I think we should start compiling a list. Maybe the figure that TWC quoted about 85% of the complaints have gone away is because everyone already called in their issues once, and as much fun as that was, don't want to continue banging their head against the wall if they don't have to keep calling every week to complain about the same issues over again.

I want to help make sure the problems get fixed before Navigator spreads to my area. By the way, in case no one has said so already, thanks for being the involuntary guinea pigs for this beta testing. The rest of the nation won't know all the pain and suffering that you have been going through, but the ones of us who are reading your horror stories here do see it and appreciate it. Thanks,

Kat.

Did the City Council meeting happen yesterday? Did anybody here attend? How did it go?


They had the meeting last night. Here is an article about it.

http://journalstar.com/articles/2007/03/06/news/local/doc45ecf3ff5e793858046256.txt

They had the meeting last night. Here is an article about it.

http://journalstar.com/articles/2007/03/06/news/local/doc45ecf3ff5e793858046256.txt

Man, TWC has got to be hating this now. I was reading through the user comments on the article, and there was one in there that stood out, only because it seems so patently wrong and has nothing to back it up. Specifically, one of the posters says that Navigator is open source software and that TWC is just using it. I thought TWC developed Navigator in house? Of course, Navigator could be open source and TWC just has engineers working on it, but a quick Google search revealed nothing about Navigator as open source (discounting the hits about Netscape Navigator).

They had the meeting last night. Here is an article about it.

http://journalstar.com/articles/2007/03/06/news/local/doc45ecf3ff5e793858046256.txt

The article says the new guide has been rolled out in Charlotte, NC but I haven't seen it. I contacted my TWC office and this is the response I got.


Thanks for the reply. The Navigator is the end user interface. Passport
is
the Operating System of the digital receivers. This is not changing.


What am I supposed to make of that?

The article says the new guide has been rolled out in Charlotte, NC but I haven't seen it. I contacted my TWC office and this is the response I got.

"Thanks for the reply. The Navigator is the end user interface. Passport
is the Operating System of the digital receivers. This is not changing."

What am I supposed to make of that?
That they don't know their arse from a hole in the ground.

Not jumping all over you and I am sorry I didn't review all your other posts before commenting about your version. I stand corrected.

I have a friend who is a TWC employee and he has told me that Daylight Savings Time is the driving force for the rush to upgrade to Navigator. They would not have had to pay Passport for the release that supports the new Daylight Savings Dates, if the Navigator launch had gone as planned. Passport has that hard coded in the software and it would not change the time on the box or adjust all your recording schedules. I am sure we all agree this is silly since we just had the Y2K issues and that they should have learned not to hard code dates but it is also smart of Passport's part, you have to pay for a patch to fix it. Get you one way or another.

But you will have either Navigator or Passport 2.6.002 before the time change. Cross your fingers it is Passport.

I wonder(unfortunately) if that is the same for us in TWC Motorola markets???? Will iGuide support this years DST or will we also be forced onto Navigator(OCAP Version)????

Just got another response from TWC here in Charlotte and they said there are no plans to change the guide at this time.

I wonder(unfortunately) if that is the same for us in TWC Motorola markets???? Will iGuide support this years DST or will we also be forced onto Navigator(OCAP Version)????

Yeah--I was wondering when they'll deploy in Los Angeles. I had Moxi, and really liked it, but needed more space and went with the 3416/iGuide DVR. The interface sux, but I do love the increased capacity.

Yeah--I was wondering when they'll deploy in Los Angeles. I had Moxi, and really liked it, but needed more space and went with the 3416/iGuide DVR. The interface sux, but I do love the increased capacity.

Same boat here in VC. I had my MOXI replaced in October with a 6416.

That brings up a question nobody has mentioned that I've really been wondering... If Navigator will leave the eSATA port on the 8300 enabled for the external hard drive.

And... GASP, might trick play even work?

That brings up a question nobody has mentioned that I've really been wondering... If Navigator will leave the eSATA port on the 8300 enabled for the external hard drive.

And... GASP, might trick play even work?There have been reports that the eSATA does work with Navigator - not sure about "trick play" though.

That brings up a question nobody has mentioned that I've really been wondering... If Navigator will leave the eSATA port on the 8300 enabled for the external hard drive.

And... GASP, might trick play even work?

Yeah, you're right. No one has mentioned that question. I was just joking when I posted before in this thread:

Does anyone know if you will be able to connect an external SATA drive and retain all functionality with Navigator? I'm on Passport right now and I don't want to lose the live TV DVR functions, hence no SATA drive yet.

Many people complain about losing "live trick play", but I don't think anyone, once they've expanded their storage, would consider giving it up. For myself, other than the Today Show and CNN, all programming is recorded and watched (sans commercials) when *we* chose to watch it.

Many people complain about losing "live trick play", but I don't think anyone, once they've expanded their storage, would consider giving it up. For myself, other than the Today Show and CNN, all programming is recorded and watched (sans commercials) when *we* chose to watch it.

Well, I find that I lean very heavily on the whole pause thing, I do it very frequently. That bug would kill me.

Yes, I know all about the workaround, but I have also seen 2 instances where I did exactly what the workaround supposedly was only to find that I "lost" content that I thought it was taking care of ( the workaround was to hit the record button rather than pause, twice I did that and found it only recorded from the start of the program until the time I HIT the record button).

Basically, having the external drive means having more stuff stored. Which can be thought of as having a larger choice when you sit down to watch stuff.

So I decided that I hated the trick play bug AND I have experience that the "workaround" for it sure will not function the way I want. Only choice was to be more aggressive about watching what was stored. Which means never letting it fill up with much more than a dozen hours of HD.

I suspect the big difference Pepar and I went different directions is that he rarely if ever watches live and I like to watch live. Neither is "more correct" than the other. I am NOT saying my way is better, just explaining how I arrived at my way in case someone else may find it their way.

Don't get me wrong, as soon as I know this bug is squashed, I'm buying external storage. More to choose from is "better" than less, especially if one doesn't have to pay the price I would have had to pay.

I believe I remember reading a post of two where the member had TWO 8300HD's - one with an external drive and one without - one for archiving and one for live.

Yes I do recall that! BUT, what DO they charge for that second 8300? There's a 8 buck charge for a cable box, then 10 bucks on top of that for the DVR "service." Would a second one be $18/month? Let's say the second box comes at a 50% discount, so that means $9/month.

Then again, there are folks who will spring for a TiVo 3. Many of whom may get quite upset as TWC implements SDV.

Ah, life is just too damn complicated!

Then again, there are folks who will spring for a TiVo 3. Many of whom may get quite upset as TWC implements SDV.Perhaps. But not nearly so upset as you people are going to get when you get switched to the Digital Navigator :D.

I'm sure I'm the only one expressing this: I am delighted to be on Comcast!

Of course, there's a qualifier; my local cable company, an SA/Passport shop, was purchased a year or so ago by Comcast. Having just laid out whatever for the operation and being in a relatively unsophisticated backwater (York, PA), I am told it will be quite some time before they make any equipment changes. The ROI is just not there.

pepar,

Sometimes I think we must be the only 2 people on the planet happy with our cableco's. :)

pepar,

Sometimes I think we must be the only 2 people on the planet happy with our cableco's. :)
"Here's te us, was' like us, damn few and their all deed" :)

in a relatively unsophisticated backwater (York, PA)

Hey, I remember going down there (63 or 4ish) to play a Friends school (I think) in football. They had the gosh darndest, spiffy looking ambulance right at the edge of the field. Unfortunately one of their guys had to use it. I remember getting in BIG trouble with the coach because they put us in the girls lockers... so I got a couple of fat sanitary pads and asked the trainer to wrap them around my knuckles (they used to get very banged up in any game, remember we played 2 way in those days). Coach saw it and gave me what for!

they put us in the girls lockers... so I got a couple of fat sanitary pads and asked the trainer to wrap them around my knuckles !
You will one day regret divulging that information! :D

Well, I find that I lean very heavily on the whole pause thing, I do it very frequently. That bug would kill me.
Same for me. Waiting for Navigator and hope the "bug" is not there for any hard drive additions. I may set the channel on the news say and watch something else and then rewind and skip through the news. Will also "get behind" on other shows and be caught up by the end using the trick play stuff. With the 1 hour buffer, do not need to record as much. Also with the 'swap' key you can actually buffer two channels. Only thing that has gotten me when doing two buffers is when something starts recording and takes over the second tuner and I lose that live buffer.
/Dan

I'm sure I'm the only one expressing this: I am delighted to be on Comcast!

Of course, there's a qualifier; my local cable company, an SA/Passport shop, was purchased a year or so ago by Comcast. Having just laid out whatever for the operation and being in a relatively unsophisticated backwater (York, PA), I am told it will be quite some time before they make any equipment changes. The ROI is just not there.

You're lucky if you have a DVR - Comcast York (and some other smaller Comcast divisions out there) run Passport only on their DVRs but on the non-DVRs they have SARA.

Greetings,

First time poster. Big fan of cable TV and I live in the Metro Milwaukee area. It appears that the new Time Warner Cable Navigator has gotten mixed reviews.

I had received a notification from Time Warner that one of the boxes (I only have one) was to have the Navigator updated on January 24. But that not all boxes would be affected right away. Mine was not. On or about February 14th there was a big download of my Pioneer box at about 5 am (CST) but no Navigator so maybe they were still testing the equipment.

I had originally two Scientific Atlanta boxes that were buggy and a Pace Box that had problems in my 6 years of having Time Warner Digital Cable. (It turned out that the Pace Box was not buggy, but often times when they notice pixel break up on the digital channels, the first thing they do is replace the box.) An old Pioneer box was our first box, but that gave us problems after about 3 months. I have had a new Pioneer Passport box now for about 6 years and it runs like a champ!

I was told that the Pioneer boxes would be last to be upgraded. Is this based not only on the type of box you have but the city and "mode"(i.e quadrant) where you live that determines the upgrade? I think TWC is going with the order in the Milwaukee area of:

1.) DVR HD boxes

2.) DVR boxes

3.) SA HD boxes

4.) SA boxes

5.) Pace HD boxes

6.) Pace Boxes

7.) Pioneer HD Boxes

8.) Pioneer Boxes

What was the company name of the first cable boxes that were digital that were about the size of a VCR when digital first came out? I assume that if those are still in circulation that those would really be the last to be upgraded.

Regards,

Jack

It appears that the new Time Warner Cable Navigator has gotten mixed reviews.Welcome Jack,
"Mixed Reviews" would imply that there are some positive ones! Do you know of any positive reviews of Navigator? I don't recall seeing any ones here - but perhaps I am missing something.

Me too. I've also had Navigator for the past month here in Lincoln NE. This morning the box is dead. sounds like this is widespread.....I was planning on just driving to the office and getting a new box but maybe I'll call first.

I was just getting used to Nav. What really sucks is if I lose all my programs on the DVR...had whole seasons I hadn't watched yet.

I don't have the Navigator upgrade yet. But if your box doesn't take the upgrade well, turn off the box by hitting the power button on your remote or box itself. Than unplug the box for about 10 minutes and plug it back in. If the box button is "frozen" and does not respond, unplug your box for 10 minutes and plug it back in. This will clear any bad data that may not have loaded properly after the upgrade. Make sure you wait for the correct time to show in the display. Than turn your box back on and allow the system to reboot. Many times, unplugging the box for 10 minutes can solve a lot of problems as opposed to just a reboot.

Jack

Welcome Jack,
"Mixed Reviews" would imply that there are some positive ones! Do you know of any positive reviews of Navigator? I don't recall seeing any ones here - but perhaps I am missing something.

LOL!

Correct Dave,

I haven't found any positive reviews on this forum yet!

Jack

LOL!

Correct Dave,

I haven't found any positive reviews on this forum yet!

JackSo you were being kind to TW! :)

Two questions,

1.) On a NON-DVR box, if you are in Record Mode for Navigator, do you just press exit like you did on Passport to stop the recording?

2.) Is there a quicker way to FIND SHOWS other than using the keyboard, which sounds very clunky! (It always seemed to be easy to use the "C" key, to search by Title on the Passport Software.

Jack

Two questions,

1.) On a NON-DVR box, if you are in Record Mode for Navigator, do you just press exit like you did on Passport to stop the recording?
Jack, non-DVR boxes will not record. I know you knew that, so I must have misunderstood. :)

I believe I remember reading a post of two where the member had TWO 8300HD's - one with an external drive and one without - one for archiving and one for live.

Ah, how quickly they forget... :rolleyes:

So let me get this straight: If you pay extra/month for the DVR you can avoid Navigator? Seems like perhaps TW's real intent is to migrate everyone to a $10/month (or so) higher priced service. :D

Well,

As a cable subscriber since 1985, I am hoping that things with the Navigator upgrade improve for everyone! It sounds like this product may have been rushed too fast to market! Is there any way that your local Time Warner office management can delay this upgrade? Or are they obligated to roll out Navigator regardless by such a time to meet some upgrade quota? I think that the longer this is delayed, the better it is for all of us because that means Time Warner will be spending more time getting the bugs out.

How can you tell what version of Navigator you have? I do know that they give you the option to change the time, because this info was included in the brochure about it. So at this time, nobody has the option to change the duration of the Channel Banner display on Navigator? Sounds like that is one thing that Time Warner needs to change along with multiple color schemes for the digital guide under the new system.

Glad I found this board! I am certainly no longer thrilled about this upgrade! However, I am optimistic that things will improve once the upgrade patches are released.

Jack

PS. If you have your remote control set to control TV volume through the TV and not the cable box, does that change with the upgrade? I know audio settings may change where the TV may sound lower and need to be adjust under the new SETTINGS options. But I want to make sure that my remote volume continues to control the TV and not the cable box volume.

Just a question.I know most or all Passport users want to keep it instead of Navigator.How many SARA 1.88 or 1.89 would rather keep SARA than have Navigator forced on them?