Time Warner Cable Navigator [Text View] - Page 3

Riverside_Guy

03-18-07, 12:13 PM

Well, I hope it's not a matter of be careful what you wish for. You might be trading one problem for a host of other, much more aggravating, problems.

Oh I hear you! But if Navigator DOES everything Passport does, correctly, fixes the trick play bug, it's absolutely a step up BECAUSE of it's SDV support.

Of course, turning to my cynical side, that also means that while TWC can't use the "we're out of bandwidth" argument, they still can revert to the "they won't sign a decent carriage agreement unless you start paying even MORE money." the only way to really address that is for Verizon to be immediately granted a city-wide franchise/license to deliver TV services.

Once that happens, TWC may actually have to go into the mode of providing stuff to get customers as they are NOT the only game in town (yes, in very specific locations in the city, satellite may be some competition, but an Internet connection does NOT come with satellite so one would have to step way back in connection speed to go DSL or pay another 10 bucks a month for cable Road Runner (it's ten bucks more if you do NOT have other services from TWC).

Satch Man

03-20-07, 01:44 PM

Greetings,

Can anyone tell me in the Milwaukee Area when the Pioneer Boxes with Passport on them are to be updated to Navigator by Time Warner? I would like to get a date or at least narrowed down to the week when the upgrade is scheduled to "prepare" for the change-over.

Also, who determines when the upgrade is to take place? Is it the office manager, a head technical supervisor, or the President of the local division of your TWC company?

Jack

le_vampyre

03-21-07, 11:39 AM

le_vampyre

03-21-07, 12:02 PM

1. First complain to your cable company to resolve the issue. You should fully document your interaction with the cable company. Get the names of everyone that you spoke with and write down the response that you got from each of them. [Thanks, Michael].

2. If that does not get resolved to your satisfaction, then complain to your local franchise authority.

A franchising authority is the local municipal, county or other government organization that regulates certain aspects of the cable television industry at the state or local level.

The name of the franchising authority may be on the front or back of your cable bill. If this information is not on your bill, contact your cable company or your local town or city hall to get the contact information.

Write to them and copy the president of your cable company as well.

3. For Time Warner - Contact Time Warner Cable CEO: glenn.britt@twcable.com. He has a lot of clout.

4. Submit a complaint to the FCC:

(A) Online:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html

(B) Mail:

Federal Communications Commission
Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau
Consumer Complaints
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, D.C. 20554

(C) Phone:

Toll Free: 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322)
TTY: 1-888-TELL- FCC (1-888-835-5322)

(D) Fax: 202-418-0232

Finally, it is in the cable company's best interest to address your concerns. If they do not, do not settle for bad service and an inferior product - switch to satellite and get an HD antenna for local channels.

Cable companies will listen - No cable company wants to make the front page of their local newspaper like Time Warner Los Angeles did:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-cable16mar16,1,45928.story

michaeltscott

03-21-07, 01:18 PM

1. First complain to your cable company to resolve the issue.

2. If that does not get resolved to your satisfaction, then complain to your local franchise authority.

A franchising authority is the local municipal, county or other government organization that regulates certain aspects of the cable television industry at the state or local level.

The name of the franchising authority may be on the front or back of your cable bill. If this information is not on your bill, contact your cable company or your local town or city hall.

Write to them and copy the president of your cable company as well.

3. For Time Warner - Contact Time Warner Cable CEO: glenn.britt@twcable.com. He has a lot of clout.

4. Submit a complaint to the FCC:

(A) Online:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html

(B) Mail:

Federal Communications Commission
Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau
Consumer Complaints
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, D.C. 20554

(C) Phone:

Toll Free: 1-888-CALL-FCC (1-888-225-5322)
TTY: 1-888-TELL- FCC (1-888-835-5322)

(D) Fax: 202-418-0232I'd add to step 1 that you should fully document your interaction with the cable company. Get the names of everyone that you spoke with and write down the response that you got from each of them.

Dorny423

03-21-07, 02:42 PM

There was an update for Navigator on my 8300HD box this afternoon here in Lincoln. The version is now 2.3.19AB-ptv Jan 26 2007, 15:22:39.

I haven't noticed anything different yet but will post anything if I do.

There was another update here in Lincoln today. I haven't looked for any changes yet. The new version is 2.3.27AB-ptv Mar 7 2007

If I notice anything new I will post it.

pepar

03-21-07, 04:04 PM

4. Submit a complaint to the FCC:

(A) Online:
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/complaints.html
This link is for complaints about "1) wireless and wireline telecommunication services; 2) non-programming related cable, broadcasting and satellite services; and 3) communications accessibility issues."

I know because I just went there to complain about Comcast dropping HDNet and HDNet Movies from our channel line-up.

michaeltscott

03-21-07, 05:54 PM

I know because I just went there to complain about Comcast dropping HDNet and HDNet Movies from our channel line-up.This is off-topic, but why would that concern the FCC? Did you want a commensurate drop in rates?

pkscout

03-21-07, 06:03 PM

This link is for complaints about "1) wireless and wireline telecommunication services; 2) non-programming related cable, broadcasting and satellite services; and 3) communications accessibility issues."

I know because I just went there to complain about Comcast dropping HDNet and HDNet Movies from our channel line-up.

I found once on the FCC site that they tell you to file complaints regarding cable to your local franchise authority, so not only would complaining to the FCC be redundant, it would also be a waste of time. The FCC will just pitch them in the trash.

pepar

03-21-07, 06:13 PM

This is off-topic, but why would that concern the FCC? Did you want a commensurate drop in rates?
I called Comcast and complained. I emailed Comcast and complained. If I could have complained to the FCC, I would have. There are three hundred channels I couldn't care less about, and they yank the one that is about to run Season 2 of Star Trek: Enterprise.

I'm sure that this is not news to you, but if people don't complain when a company arbitrarily changes their service without prior notice - or any after the fact either - they might think that they can do it any time they feel like it.

And I am now on my way to HDNet to complain. :mad:

michaeltscott

03-21-07, 10:00 PM

Pepar, you haven't stated how you think that your cable provider is in violation of FCC regulations. They have a right to offer for purchase or subscription whatever premium programming that they see fit to offer; in fact, the cable MSOs have made a case that it's a First Amendment right--no one can tell them what to "say" with their bandwidth (this was in reference to the DTV subchannel must-carry issue). The only programming that FCC regulations require them to carry are any local channels which insist on carriage using the "Must Carry/Can Carry" rule and a certain amount of public access programming, the amount being dependent upon their total bandwidth. If they think that they're losing money on carriage of the HDNet services or if they think that they can make more money by offering something else, I doubt that anything in the regulations stops them.

If they're not violating regulations, the FCC can't help you. There may be a regulation requiring that give their subscribers a certain amount of notice before changing programming; I seem to recall that TWC was made to put the NFL channel back temporarily for ex-Adelphia subs who had the service before TWC took possession of their accounts. If they haven't given sufficient notice you might be able to force them to put the channels back temporarily, if that helps. But your main avenues of appeal are the cable provider itself and its local franchising authority.

pepar

03-21-07, 10:07 PM

Pepar, you haven't stated how you think that your cable provider is in violation of FCC regulations. . . If they're not violating regulations, the FCC can't help you.
le_vampye's post was titled "Complaining Effectively About Your Cable Service". I had a complaint and followed the link in his (her?) point #4 and found that my complaint wasn't something the FCC dealt with.

It annoys me that they dropped the channels. It annoys me even more that they crow about adding channels, but drop them with no notice.

Thanks, I will pursue the additional angles you mention.

Adelmoxi

03-21-07, 10:31 PM

Dorny423

03-22-07, 12:24 AM

Satch Man

03-22-07, 10:48 AM

I can't tell you about Milwaukee but here in KC, I understand the Pioneer Boxes will be the very last to be updated to Navigator. I was told by an employee, who is a friend, that they are last on the list to update. I understand the Pioneer Boxes have the least amount of memory of all boxes and they are still dealing with fine tuning Navigator for the SA boxes and the SA DVR.

You really don't want to rush the update to start with, so I would almost go out and ask for a Pioneer box just so I could keep Passport longer. I think Lincoln is the only TWC division to fully launch Navigator to all boxes, I don't know if Lincoln has any Pioneer boxes to start with.

Does anyone in Lincoln have a Pioneer Box? How does Navigator work on it?

Well I can give you my story,

On or about January 24th, I got a letter from the President of TWC-Milwaukee who said that one of my boxes was scheduled to be updated to Navigator approximately that night. The thing is, in the 20+ years I have had cable, about 6 years with digital, I had several different brands of digital boxes and the current Pioneer that I have has been running FLAWLESSLY for 5 years. (With Passport Software.)

Well, nothing happened with the upgrade so about three weeks later I had the numbers on my box for a couple of hours like something was downloading on it from about 3-5 am, which I presumed to be Navigator. But the update did not take. The box worked fine, it was just after the download, it went back to a Passport boot/reboot like nothing had happened.

However, after finding this forum, I realize that Navigator is NOT something that you want your division of TWC to rush on the upgrade. Because once you are upgraded from Passport to Navigator you're stuck with Navigator. (Unless during a box swipe, you get an old box that hasn't been upgraded yet.) No news is GOOD NEWS for customers with Pioneer boxes that still have Passport on them.

This means that at least SOME DIVISIONS of TWC are listening, and are waiting to fine-tune Navigator, fixing its bugs before the roll-out on the Pioneer boxes.

Jack

pepar

03-22-07, 12:04 PM

Riverside_Guy

03-22-07, 01:03 PM

I know because I just went there to complain about Comcast dropping HDNet and HDNet Movies from our channel line-up.

Oh that really sucks the high, hard one. I'm finding about 2-3 movies each month that are old classics given a HD treatment, with excellent results.

Matter of fact, those 2 channels are on an extra cost tier that had the 2 InHDs. We lost one of those and while they said they intended to replace it, they obviously had no intentions of replacing it. My only choice would be to drop that tier. BUT, I do NOT want to lose either of the HDNets (I LOVE their NASA coverage in additions to the movies).

Riverside_Guy

03-22-07, 01:13 PM

However, after finding this forum, I realize that Navigator is NOT something that you want your division of TWC to rush on the upgrade. Because once you are upgraded from Passport to Navigator you're stuck with Navigator. (Unless during a box swipe, you get an old box that hasn't been upgraded yet.) No news is GOOD NEWS for customers with Pioneer boxes that still have Passport on them.

This means that at least SOME DIVISIONS of TWC are listening, and are waiting to fine-tune Navigator, fixing its bugs before the roll-out on the Pioneer boxes.

Jack

I dare say as soon as you plug a box with the old software on it, you will get the new stuff. While we can grouse about Nav among ourselves, we really have ZERO choice or input on what they do or don't do. Yes I'd believe that in markets where there is actual flourishing competition, they have far better deals for customers, because in areas where one is really stuck, you take what they give or hit the highway (meaning give up TV totally except for DVDs... that is specific to my market because I can NOT even get locals via OTA).

Riverside_Guy

03-22-07, 01:22 PM

Did you want a commensurate drop in rates?

Some of us feel that if a service provider reduces their service, they should compensate for that reduction in services. Not sure about pepar, but I specifically paid for 5 extra HD channels, and they became 4, I had an issue with that and got lambasted all over the place for feeling like that. I got an official "we intend to replace the missing channel" but it's now quite clear they never intended to replace it. AND to add insult, 200 miles away, in the same state, they took one of the 4 remaining channels in that pay tier and moved it to the regular service AND immediately offered compensation in the form of a premium channel for free for one full year. Including it's HD channel.

Argh, this really is quite off topic, sorry but it hits a very raw nerve.

twitchee3

03-22-07, 02:53 PM

Well I can give you my story,

On or about January 24th, I got a letter from the President of TWC-Milwaukee who said that one of my boxes was scheduled to be updated to Navigator approximately that night. The thing is, in the 20+ years I have had cable, about 6 years with digital, I had several different brands of digital boxes and the current Pioneer that I have has been running FLAWLESSLY for 5 years. (With Passport Software.)

Well, nothing happened with the upgrade so about three weeks later I had the numbers on my box for a couple of hours like something was downloading on it from about 3-5 am, which I presumed to be Navigator. But the update did not take. The box worked fine, it was just after the download, it went back to a Passport boot/reboot like nothing had happened.

However, after finding this forum, I realize that Navigator is NOT something that you want your division of TWC to rush on the upgrade. Because once you are upgraded from Passport to Navigator you're stuck with Navigator. (Unless during a box swipe, you get an old box that hasn't been upgraded yet.) No news is GOOD NEWS for customers with Pioneer boxes that still have Passport on them.

This means that at least SOME DIVISIONS of TWC are listening, and are waiting to fine-tune Navigator, fixing its bugs before the roll-out on the Pioneer boxes.

Jack
Riverside guy is correct, if you receive a box with the "old" software (which wouln't happen anyway, the tech will always show up with a factory refurb unit or a new one with current SW/FW), as SOON as it connected to the cable head end and was authorized, it would immediately be pushed the current software and firmware versions being used by your cable head end. The box is owned, operated, and managed by the cable companies, you really have NO control over what they put on it.

Also, as i understand it, Navigator has only been released on a very small scale in some TWC markets for beta testing, and a national or even wide scale roll out seems far off. It's not that certain TWC markets haven't "released" navigator because it's not ready and they're fine tuning, it's the fact that they don't have the new software yet because it's not ready for national release.

Satch Man

03-22-07, 05:06 PM

Riverside guy is correct, if you receive a box with the "old" software (which wouln't happen anyway, the tech will always show up with a factory refurb unit or a new one with current SW/FW), as SOON as it connected to the cable head end and was authorized, it would immediately be pushed the current software and firmware versions being used by your cable head end. The box is owned, operated, and managed by the cable companies, you really have NO control over what they put on it.

Also, as i understand it, Navigator has only been released on a very small scale in some TWC markets for beta testing, and a national or even wide scale roll out seems far off. It's not that certain TWC markets haven't "released" navigator because it's not ready and they're fine tuning, it's the fact that they don't have the new software yet because it's not ready for national release.

Thanks!

Will post back whenever my box changes or any new questions arise. Oh BTW, can anyone list each of the markets services by Time Warner where Navigator has been rolled out or soon will be?

Jack

twitchee3

03-22-07, 07:32 PM

Thanks!

Will post back whenever my box changes or any new questions arise. Oh BTW, can anyone list each of the markets services by Time Warner where Navigator has been rolled out or soon will be?

Jack
HAHA, I don't think you're going to get ANY accurate info on markets where Navigator will be "rolled out soon," because as reading through this forum has CLEARLY established, cable operators share NOTHING with their customers, we don't know what happens until it hits home. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the first information you got about Navigator was the actual IPG staring you in the face once it's pushed to your box.

Satch Man

03-22-07, 10:34 PM

HAHA, I don't think you're going to get ANY accurate info on markets where Navigator will be "rolled out soon," because as reading through this forum has CLEARLY established, cable operators share NOTHING with their customers, we don't know what happens until it hits home. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the first information you got about Navigator was the actual IPG staring you in the face once it's pushed to your box.

LOL!!! So it's like TWC's big Christmas present to you, that almost everybody doesn't want, and once you get it, you can't return it!!! LOL!

Jack

Bulldog1975

03-23-07, 03:36 AM

As a followup to the article on the Lincoln City Council action, the Lincoln Cable Advisory Board has met a couple of times and will have a hearing regarding Navigator and/or other customer service issues with Time-Warner Cable. Hearing is this coming Tuesday evening, March 27, 7:00 p.m. until ???, at the City-County Building in Lincoln.

I'm a newbie to this forum and am not allowed to post URLs yet until I reach five posts, (tried to cheat the system a couple of times but was unsuccessful) but you can find the details by going to lincoln.ne.gov, click "Public Hearing on Time Warner" if it's still there in the big box in the middle of the screen, or if it disappears, click "Government" then in the City of Lincoln section click "Departments", then in the Mayor's Department section click "Citizen Information Center", then "Media Release", then "Cable Advisory Board set Public Hearing for MARCH 27." (Sorry about the wordiness; somebody please post an actual link!)

Whether you're thrilled with the Navigator or less so, come on down to beautiful downtown Lincoln and state your thoughts. (Most helpful if you already live here and subscribe to TWC, but out of towners are always welcome!)

GregLee

03-23-07, 04:41 AM

Hearing is this coming Tuesday evening, March 27, 7:00 p.m. until ???, at the City-County Building in Lincoln.

link (http://www.lincoln.ne.gov/city/mayor/media/2007/032007.htm)

Riverside_Guy

03-23-07, 11:51 AM

Gleaning from actual statements made by TWC execs, it seems safe to think that it will first be rolled out to Passport driven systems first. The reasoning given by them is that the SARA platform is currently compatible with SDV technology but Passport is not.

What isn't so clear is whether or not the hardware makes a difference. It seems the SciAtl boxes are by far in the majority, but I have seen a few comments about Passport on a non SciAtl box.

Nebraska and North Carolina seem to be 2 states where there are Navigator trials going on... in certain areas within those states. We only get that info by folks signing up for AVS...

RandyWalters

03-23-07, 12:58 PM

HAHA, I don't think you're going to get ANY accurate info on markets where Navigator will be "rolled out soon," because as reading through this forum has CLEARLY established, cable operators share NOTHING with their customers, we don't know what happens until it hits home. In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if the first information you got about Navigator was the actual IPG staring you in the face once it's pushed to your box.Well my TWC provider (South Bay/El Segundo/Torrance/Gardena) recently sent out mailers announcing the release of the new Navigator menu complete with a list of features and several pictures of the various menus. As for the release date, all it says is "COMING SOON!!"

pepar

03-23-07, 01:01 PM

Well my TWC provider (South Bay/El Segundo/Torrance/Gardena) recently sent out mailers announcing the release of the new Navigator menu complete with a list of features and several pictures of the various menus. As for the release date, all it says is "COMING SOON!!"
Scan and link?

RandyWalters

03-23-07, 01:49 PM

Scan and link?So far there's nothing on their website about Navigator that i can find, and i don't have a scanner at home, but the flyer is sitting on my desk there. Maybe tomorrow i can take a few digital photos of the flyer and post em on ImageShack or sumthin to prove i'm not lying :D

Time Warner South Bay (http://www.timewarnercable.com/SoCal/)

pepar

03-23-07, 01:59 PM

So far there's nothing on their website about Navigator that i can find, and i don't have a scanner at home, but the flyer is sitting on my desk there. Maybe tomorrow i can take a few digital photos of the flyer and post em on ImageShack or sumthin to prove i'm not lying :D
No, no, that's not it at all. :cool: I think there's a general interest in all things Navigator, including how their presenting/promoting it. Unless you've got the right gear, digital photos won't allow us to read the flyer.

RandyWalters

03-23-07, 07:39 PM

No, no, that's not it at all. :cool: I think there's a general interest in all things Navigator, including how their presenting/promoting it. Unless you've got the right gear, digital photos won't allow us to read the flyer.Ok here's scans of the front and back of the TWC Navigator flyer i got a few weeks ago:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/TWC_Navigator_Flyer_1.jpg

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/506/TWC_Navigator_Flyer_2.jpg

billnest

03-23-07, 08:04 PM

UnnDunn

03-23-07, 08:09 PM

Scarlett

03-23-07, 08:32 PM

I know you guys will hate me for not doing my homework before asking my dumb questions, but I'm hoping someone will take pity on me and give me some direction to save me from hours of reading, particularly if there is no chance that this will work for me. I'll do the homework, but please somebody help me get started.

I am in a Charter Communications cable area and their standard cable box/recorder is Motorola. Is it reasonable to expect an 8300HD recorder might be able to record (and play) programs from Charter Cable? If so, is there a chance that the 8300 could also download and utilize the programming data?You can't use an 8300HD DVR with Motorola software. However, my son has Charter Communications as a provider, and they are using the Scientific Atlanta 8300HD's as their standard-issue DVR. You might try calling Charter and asking whether they also offer, or plan to offer, the 8300's in your area. You might also ask if the Motorola boxes have SATA ports that have been activated. That way, you could use an external hard drive for increased storage space. If the Moto boxes have firewire or USB ports, ask if either of them will work with an external hard drive. The worst they can say is "No."

Otherwise, the information from UnnDunn is correct. :)

Scarlett

twitchee3

03-23-07, 11:29 PM

I know you guys will hate me for not doing my homework before asking my dumb questions, but I'm hoping someone will take pity on me and give me some direction to save me from hours of reading, particularly if there is no chance that this will work for me. I'll do the homework, but please somebody help me get started.

I am in a Charter Communications cable area and their standard cable box/recorder is Motorola. Is it reasonable to expect an 8300HD recorder might be able to record (and play) programs from Charter Cable? If so, is there a chance that the 8300 could also download and utilize the programming data?
If you have a Motorola set top box, that means your local cable head end uses Motorola hardware and infrastructure systems, meaning they are incompatible with SA equipment and the 8300HD will not work on your cable system. If you want your own DVR, go with an old Sony or LG unit, or get a TiVo.

RandyWalters

03-24-07, 11:46 AM

I am in a Charter Communications cable area and their standard cable box/recorder is Motorola. Is it reasonable to expect an 8300HD recorder might be able to record (and play) programs from Charter Cable? If so, is there a chance that the 8300 could also download and utilize the programming data?If you're in the USA, and considering buying an SA8300HD from ebay or anyone else, then it will not work with your cable company and is also most likely stolen.

twitchee3

03-24-07, 12:56 PM

If you're in the USA, and considering buying an SA8300HD from ebay or anyone else, then it will not work with your cable company and is also most likely stolen.
Not necessarily, in fact, I've seen MANY Moto and SA HD DVR's up for re-sale, and i don't think i've come across one unit yet where i suspected it had been "stolen" from a cable system.

Since these units are widely available for purchase in Canada, why would it be so hard to believe that they might make it down here too (they're not confiscated at the border as contraban), even though they have little use because of our cable operators.

But yes, the possibility of getting a stolen box is still out there, so be careful what you do.

davehancock

03-24-07, 01:01 PM

RandyWalters

03-24-07, 01:26 PM

Not necessarily, in fact, I've seen MANY Moto and SA HD DVR's up for re-sale, and i don't think i've come across one unit yet where i suspected it had been "stolen" from a cable system.

Since these units are widely available for purchase in Canada, why would it be so hard to believe that they might make it down here too (they're not confiscated at the border as contraban), even though they have little use because of our cable operators.

But yes, the possibility of getting a stolen box is still out there, so be careful what you do.I'm not talking about Canada (where some of the cable companies offer their DVRs for sale or for rental), i'm talking about the USA where cable DVRs are not offered for sale to individuals (unless something has changed). If he's buying it from a USA seller, it may or may not be stolen but regardless it will not work on any USA cable company's network.

I used to track a lot of EBay auctions for SA8000HD/SA8300HD cable DVRs and a lot of the USA-based sellers were guys who were re-selling them after buying them from other EBay sellers (some Canadian, but mostly USA) after discovering the hard way that they could not get it to work with their cable company. So they turn around and screw the next guy by re-selling it on EBay and claiming that it will work with any cable company and bullcrap stories on how they came to be in possession of it.

So far, nobody i've corresponded to nor anyone on the SA8000 maling list have ever gotten an EBay or Craigslist DVR to work on their cable network.

twitchee3

03-24-07, 03:20 PM

It makes no difference: no US cable company will authorize the box. Partly because they do not want to encourage boxes which "may" be stolen. But there are other good business reasons as well.
Not so, i've heard at least one story of someone who was INDEED able to set up a privately purchased Motorola DCT 641x HD DVR with their US cable company. I do not remember which cable company or which market, and i believe there may have been special circumstances (the person had cable co. 'hook ups'), but again, this HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE.

When i was referring to Canada, i simply meant that since they are LEGAL to purchase there, any unit in the US COULD have come from Canada, and thus there's just as much of a chance that a unit was legally purchased as there is a chance it was stolen from a US cable provider, i'm not saying that the situation here is just like in Canada.

And Randy, you may want to re-phrase your wording on that. These units WILL IN FACT work on US cable companies systems, but in ALL liklihood, they will not authorize the box if it didn't come from them, but technically they are capable of operating on currently installed infrastructure, heck, that's what they were built for.

davehancock

03-24-07, 06:45 PM

Not so, i've heard at least one story of someone who was INDEED able to set up a privately purchased Motorola DCT 641x HD DVR with their US cable company. I do not remember which cable company or which market, and i believe there may have been special circumstances (the person had cable co. 'hook ups'), but again, this HAS BEEN DONE BEFORE.That is rare - I've followed these (and Yahoo threads) for quite some time and have never seen a report of this happening. But, you never know, so I would sure be interested in details.

When i was referring to Canada, i simply meant that since they are LEGAL to purchase there, any unit in the US COULD have come from Canada, and thus there's just as much of a chance that a unit was legally purchased as there is a chance it was stolen from a US cable provider, i'm not saying that the situation here is just like in Canada. Yes, and this "Canadian loophole" is likely why e-bay continues to allow listing them (and why people get "sucked in").

And Randy, you may want to re-phrase your wording on that. These units WILL IN FACT work on US cable companies systems, but in ALL liklihood, they will not authorize the box if it didn't come from them, but technically they are capable of operating on currently installed infrastructure, heck, that's what they were built for.A fine point indeed. But you do recognize that a Moto box WILL NOT work on a SA infrastructure and vica versa, don't you (unless the cable company has license for the appropriate software)? Besides the issues of customer acquired DVRs being likely stolen, the cable companies have other issues: 1) System Compatability - the SA box in a Moto system; 2) billing: how does cable get paid for the DVR service? a) Charge the regular rates? (Might as well just get the box from them.) b) Set up a new "DVR Service Fee", somewhere between the regular rate and nothing? (Probably not sufficient demand to bother.); and so on.

But we all seem to agree with: in ALL liklihood, they will not authorize the box if it didn't come from them

twitchee3

03-24-07, 07:22 PM

That is rare - I've followed these (and Yahoo threads) for quite some time and have never seen a report of this happening. But, you never know, so I would sure be interested in details.

Yes, and this "Canadian loophole" is likely why e-bay continues to allow listing them (and why people get "sucked in").

A fine point indeed. But you do recognize that a Moto box WILL NOT work on a SA infrastructure and vica versa, don't you (unless the cable company has license for the appropriate software)? Besides the issues of customer acquired DVRs being likely stolen, the cable companies have other issues: 1) System Compatability - the SA box in a Moto system; 2) billing: how does cable get paid for the DVR service? a) Charge the regular rates? (Might as well just get the box from them.) b) Set up a new "DVR Service Fee", somewhere between the regular rate and nothing? (Probably not sufficient demand to bother.); and so on.

But we all seem to agree with:
Yes, I recognize the differences between markets using Motorola and Scientific Atlanta hardware, and that Moto infrastructures require Moto STB's, and vice versa, however, it's relatively easy to determine what system your local head end uses (just look at your STB if you have one) and there are ONLY two systems used in the US, so you either need an SA 8300HD or a Motorola DCT 64XX.

Besides the issues of customer acquired DVRs being likely stolen
I do have one reservation about this statement, and that is, I really don't believe that there are too many "stolen" cable STB's that are being sold out there. These STB's are WIDELY and LEGALLY available for purchase in Canada, and obviously those units are fairly available for purchase by US customers (but again, there's a good chance it won't pay off), so wouldn't it make sense that the MAJORITY of the STB's available for purchase would be legally owned units? If there were more stolen US boxes available than legal Canadian boxes to US residents, then it would mean that people are stealing their cable STB's LEFT AND RIGHT here in the US and i doubt the cable companies would still be in buisness if this type of quantity were to just disappear.

Other than that, i completely agree with you.

Regardless of the situation, it's always best to just lease a box from your cable company, or move to satellite (but i guess these days you have to pay large up front fees just to LEASE the sat receivers for an additional monthly charge :confused: ).

davehancock

03-24-07, 08:44 PM

I do have one reservation about this statement, and that is, I really don't believe that there are too many "stolen" cable STB's that are being sold out there. These STB's are WIDELY and LEGALLY available for purchase in Canada, and obviously those units are fairly available for purchase by US customers (but again, there's a good chance it won't pay off), so wouldn't it make sense that the MAJORITY of the STB's available for purchase would be legally owned units? If there were more stolen US boxes available than legal Canadian boxes to US residents, then it would mean that people are stealing their cable STB's LEFT AND RIGHT here in the US and i doubt the cable companies would still be in buisness if this type of quantity were to just disappear.
Well, we will just have to COMPLETELY disagree here - let's leave it at that and let this thread stick to that crappy Navigator. ;)

twitchee3

03-24-07, 08:50 PM

Well, we will just have to COMPLETELY disagree here - let's leave it at that and let this thread stick to that crappy Navigator. ;)
Crappy navigator it is ;)

Riverside_Guy

03-25-07, 12:03 PM

Actually, I am curious about the overall installed base. As in percentage of users w/SA equipment or Moto equipment. BUT, aren't there Pioneer units out there doing the same sort of duty SA or Moto units are doing? Have we seen Navigator deployed to ANY Moto equipment yet?

michaeltscott

03-25-07, 12:35 PM

Satch Man

03-25-07, 10:20 PM

If they get the ODN (OCAP Digital Navigator) working, it shouldn't matter what the platform is. You should be able to buy off-the-shelf DVRs that will run it, made by any CE manufacturer, including all those who do not currently sell boxes intended for cable provider leasing.

I would tend to agree Michael,

I mean let's say that TWC is using Passport software in all of it's digital boxers. For my area, Metro-Milwaukee, WI that includes Pioneer, Pace, and Scientific Atlanta. All of the TWC DVR's are all SA models, but they have a choice of non-DVR converters from the above companies.

I asked this question before, when digital cable first came out around 2001-2002 for us the boxes that they had were only one model and were the size of today's current DVR's. Who made those first cable terminals?

In any event, if all the boxes can run Passport, than when the updates and bugs are worked out, I would believe that all the boxes should run Navigator. Time Warner isn't changing the boxes. (Which could be classified as the Operating System.), just the software needed to run the boxes.

Or are Mike and I both missing something here?

Jack

GregLee

03-25-07, 11:17 PM

Or are Mike and I both missing something here?
Since TW gets income from leasing DVRs, if they implement OCAP well enough that their customers can use DVRs from elsewhere, they will be reducing their income. This is not rational corporate behavior, so I think we can predict that the TW DVR/IPG software will never work very well, if at all, on DVRs not supplied by TW.

UnnDunn

03-26-07, 01:02 AM

michaeltscott

03-26-07, 01:16 AM

Since TW gets income from leasing DVRs, if they implement OCAP well enough that their customers can use DVRs from elsewhere, they will be reducing their income. This is not rational corporate behavior, so I think we can predict that the TW DVR/IPG software will never work very well, if at all, on DVRs not supplied by TW.I doubt that they make very much money leasing DVRs and they almost certainly will continue to charge a service fee for their Navigator software running on customer owned DVRs. The real ham-sandwich in profits to be made with leased equipment is the sale of interactive services like VOD and IPPV; with their Digital Navigator IPG running on all of their customer's OCAP/CableCARD and OCAP/DCAS equipment, they can sell IPPV and VOD--it'll be difficult to sell it on that equipment without their IPG.

GregLee

03-26-07, 01:33 AM

Wouldn't this be contrary to FCC rules though, in spirit if not in letter?

I mean, OCAP is basically the result of FCC mandates, is it not?
Good points. Surely TW would not act against the spirit of FCC rules just to increase their profits. What was I thinking?

twitchee3

03-26-07, 02:10 AM

I doubt that they make very much money leasing DVRs and they almost certainly will continue to charge a service fee for their Navigator software running on customer owned DVRs. The real ham-sandwich in profits to be made with leased equipment is the sale of interactive services like VOD and IPPV; with their Digital Navigator IPG running on all of their customer's OCAP/CableCARD and OCAP/DCAS equipment, they can sell IPPV and VOD--it'll be difficult to sell it on that equipment without their IPG.
Well put.
Since TW gets income from leasing DVRs, if they implement OCAP well enough that their customers can use DVRs from elsewhere, they will be reducing their income. This is not rational corporate behavior, so I think we can predict that the TW DVR/IPG software will never work very well, if at all, on DVRs not supplied by TW.
Let's not forget that the cable companies had to actually PURCHASE these high tech (maybe haha) HD DVR's before they lease them to us. Some have done the calculations and estimate that at the average monthly lease fee for a standard cable HD DVR, the cable companies will about break even on their investment by the time they transition to the next generation of STB's.

Remember, if you were to buy an HD DVR privately these days, costs range from $400-$800 for equipment on par with the cable provided HD DVR's, so i really don't think they're making much, if any, profit from leasing these boxes. Leasing is currently the only way to efficiently put the correct technology in the hands of their customers to use their services.

holl_ands

03-26-07, 02:58 AM

Cable companies, by law, cannot recover more than 10.25% of STB/DVR wholesale cost.

Cable companies lose money whenever they roll a truck to investigate a customer reported problem.

If they can BLAME the CUSTOMER for these service calls, they not only save lots of money,
but can now CHARGE YOU for reporting a problem in YOUR OCAP HDTV/STB/DVR!!!
Which, of course, will now join your house wiring as the source of ALL problems.....

==========================================
BTW: As part of CEA's proposal to allow some non-OCAP hardware implementations, CEA proposed
that both cable owned STB's and CE manufacturer STBs be required to operate with the same OCAP
release to ensure that the MSOs would be subject to the same software problems & shortcomings:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518539868
But on the other hand, the CE manufacturers wanted to submit only the first OCAP implementation
for certification and thereafter they would "self-certify" their equipment....GAAACCCKKK

So far, NCTA (cable guys) and MPAA (Hollywood) rejected CEA proposal with extreme prejudice:
http://www.ncta.com/DocumentBinary.aspx?id=524

NCTA also argued very strongly AGAINST the Integration Ban, cuz it increases their total cost vs SAT:
http://www.ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?hidenavlink=true&type=lpubtp10&contentId=3556
http://www.ncta.com/IssueBrief.aspx?contentId=3553

davehancock

03-26-07, 11:23 AM

Riverside_Guy

03-26-07, 03:23 PM

Riverside_Guy

03-26-07, 03:35 PM

I'm sure that the cable companies would far prefer to make capital investments in their plant than in customer premises equipment.

BUT, having to accomodate customer owned equipment DOES limit cable's ability to roll out new services that require some special accommodation at the customer's end. Current example is SDV, but what about the future? One thing that is hiding in the background is MPEG-4 (and then more advanced compression technologies in the future). I don't believe (holl_ands, or any one, correct me if I have missed something) OCAP, or anythig similar, has addressed future compression technologies.

Indeed I think we'll continue to see the cable cos lease DVR equipment to their customers. In a LOT of ways, that is to our financial benefit. OCAP is technology that exists for a business purpose, it helps to not forget that. It also seems they may be able to keep a tighter reign on "their boxes" than third party.

While I 100% DO have an issue with this as a customer, I can 100% see their side in wanting to have complete control over the box. While I sure have a bunch of issues with what they do deliver, overall I think it mostly is successful at allowing me to record, time shift, and watch something later IN the same quality w/DD 5.1 sound as originally broadcast.

michaeltscott

03-26-07, 03:53 PM

Mike, where does "ODN" come from? I like it, but will those outside AVS use it as well?It's called that in the online press all over the place; I assume that they get it from Time Warner. Google "Time-Warner ODN". It's used in a Samsung PR here (http://www.samsung.com/sg/presscenter/pressrelease/digitalmedianews_20050106_0000094154.asp).

holl_ands

03-26-07, 05:13 PM

I'm sure that the cable companies would far prefer to make capital investments in their plant than in customer premises equipment.

BUT, having to accommodate customer owned equipment DOES limit cable's ability to roll out new services that require some special accommodation at the customer's end. Current example is SDV, but what about the future? One thing that is hiding in the background is MPEG-4 (and then more advanced compression technologies in the future). I don't believe (holl_ands, or any one, correct me if I have missed something) OCAP, or anything similar, has addressed future compression technologies.
Yes, OCAP and associated Next Gen Cable Architecture efforts permit advancements in
audio/video codecs, e.g. H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) and VC1 (WMVHD).
But it's mostly a hardware issue to include H.264/VC1 Decoder chips in new equipment.

BTW: Resolution of on-going Qualcomm/Broadcom H.264 (MPEG4 AVC) Patent Warz
should settle who gets paid for what....so HDTV/STB/DVR and Cell Phone manufacturers
can finally enter into low risk, enforceable royalty agreements:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20070323-9999-1b23qualcomm.html
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20070124/news_1b24jury.html

============================================
I expect to see H.264/VC-1 first in IPTV functionality incorporated into new cable STB's,
allowing cable customers to download any of many tens of thousands of OnDemand
and PPV offerings from a wide variety of providers connected via Internet vice just the
cable company's "walled garden".....
Which also means each cable company doesn't have to have massive server farms.
[Current VOD upgrades put video stream server(s) at each neighborhood node!!!]

And by moving programs to either IPTV or cable's VOD (using SDV) means more room for
dozens (100's?) of HD (or at least widescreen SD) broadcast channels coming in the future.
Many all-movie channels could go to HD via VOD or IPTV if the monthly subscription
cost doesn't increase.....
Since HD requires about four times as much capacity, how else can they upgrade all of
those all-movie and Premium channels to HD????

========================================
Jumping to new codecs for current channels would be very difficult (just ask DirecTV!!!),
since ALL existing STB's, DVR's, CableCARD HDTVs, TiVo Series 3's, et. al. become obsolete.

Maybe in the not too distant future, we'll see selected Premium channels in H.264,
which would require a suitably equipped STB/DVR/HDTV.

But when the program providers finish their on-going Direct-to-MPEG4 re-digitization
efforts and the SAT companies eliminate the current MPEG2-MPEG4 transcoding,
the cable companies may need to reconsider keeping MPEG2 with much higher data rates
(at very high data rates MPEG2 arguably works as good as low rate MPEG4) or they
get tired of SAT commercials claiming MPEG4 algorithm has inherently "better" PQ
and are forced to use H.264/MPEG4 for nearly all channels. ["I'm clueless, but I want it."]

PS: Verizon FiOS and AT&T Uverse have already started Direct-to-MPEG4 (DtM4?)
transmissions for some programs.

rdgcss

03-26-07, 09:32 PM

The primary purpose of letting cutomers have a DVR is to sell them more cable services, DVR customers subscribe to more of the premium channels

BruceS

03-27-07, 11:44 AM

I laugh every time I see a message about cable companies not being able to recover the cost of the STB with their monthly rental fees.

I have had TW cable for over thirty years. During that time, I have switched to a new box once, when I purchased an HDTV.

I guarantee TW recovered the original cost of those STB's long ago and has been earning a profit on every monthly rental fee paid by me for a long time.

BeerPimp

03-27-07, 06:03 PM

I am following up on my previous post. I was trying to connect a WD Premium My Book ES 500GB usb/esata hard drive to my 8300HD. I live in Lincoln, NE and we are a testbed for the new navagator software. I was unable to get it working. I sent a email to time warner and the representative called me back the next day or so. Long story short he said that currently esata is not supported. Right away he mentioned you cant disconnect the drive and copy stuff to your computer. I told him all I was looking to do was to add extra storage. He said until they fix all the more pressing issues. Aka slow menus, lockups, and all the missing features they will not look at supporting esata. He did not rule it out in the future. Oh Well

davehancock

03-27-07, 06:43 PM

I am following up on my previous post. I was trying to connect a WD Premium My Book ES 500GB usb/esata hard drive to my 8300HD. I live in Lincoln, NE and we are a testbed for the new navagator software. I was unable to get it working. I sent a email to time warner and the representative called me back the next day or so. Long story short he said that currently esata is not supported. That is a standard answer that all cable companies give all over the country. I believe that there have been reports of successful use of an external drive over in the External drive thread (and I see that you have posted this same text there). But it is important to select the right drive and enclosure and also to go through the correct set-up procedure.
Right away he mentioned you cant disconnect the drive and copy stuff to your computer. No BS here - that is quite true!

Satch Man

03-27-07, 11:04 PM

I would like to go back to some of the basic questions. This is because I think that TWC Navigator is going to be rolling out sooner than later in a lot of markets: I will try to read the minds of customers who may not be techno-geeks. But I have to say that we have some great tech guys on the board who are really doing a great job of answering questions! Thank you!

Some questions:

1.) What can customers expect when TWC Navigator is actually being downloaded to their boxes?

2.) How long on average will the download take?

Jack

DJshay

03-28-07, 10:03 AM

Excellent questions. I'd like to know myself. I've gotten no help whatsoever in trying to pry info out of my local TWC office.

pepar

03-28-07, 10:10 AM

Typically, cable companies have two kinds of information - no information and mis-information. :rolleyes:

Satch Man

03-29-07, 12:32 AM

Bulldog1975

03-29-07, 10:30 AM

I feel bad for you guys in Lincoln Nebraska who apparently got an early Beta version of Navigator.

Have you noticed any improvements or bug fixes in the last several weeks to months? Also, post any results about your recent town meeting if any of you went. How did that go? I believe it was yesterday the 27th, correct? Hope that things are going better for all of you.

Jack

Check it out for yourself (if you have RealPlayer on your computer); show is on the City website.

I'm still "link-challenged" and can't post URLs to this site (will be up to three of the required five posts after this message) so I again have to tell you a non-optimal way of getting to the show; if someone wants to post a separate message with the URL within the hour that would probably be helpful. To get there, you can go to lincoln.ne.gov, click the box on the right hand side of the screen that says "5CITY-TV", then on the page that pops up, click "Video On Demand", then click the "Public Service Announcements" link which takes you towards the bottom of the page, then click "Cable TV Advisory Board" and you should be there. You may want to skip the first two or three minutes; board did a couple of business items (introduction of members, reading of Minutes) before the actual hearing began.

You may want to pay particular attention to the testimony of Beth Scarborough from TWC, beginning about 43 minutes into the show. (Note that she predicts in public testimony that TWC will go nationwide with Navigator by July 1st, due to an FCC ruling on separable security.)

Beyond that, I'm in a position where I need to refrain from commenting positively or negatively. (Specifically, I'm one of the people that you'll see up on the dais. I'll have comments at some point, after all the information is collected, but need to keep an open mind for now. And you can quote me on that!)

For a news article about the meeting, check out HuskerHarley's post over on AVS Forum > VideoComponents > Cable, Digital Cable - Non-HDTV (Post #589 from that thread).

MattInLincoln

03-29-07, 02:26 PM

Check it out for yourself (if you have RealPlayer on your computer); show is on the City website.

Here's the exact link:

http://www.lincoln.ne.gov/asp/citytv.asp?ram=psa/cableadv327.rm

Riverside_Guy

03-29-07, 04:52 PM

Funny, I said in another thread that I was so upset with how screwed I felt when TWC opened up 3 new real HD channels in a different part of my city while giving us one that turned out to be a 720 x 480 SD channel carrying a HD designation, that I said I was totally willing to go to Lincoln and testify.

Doubt I could be of much real help, so here's hoping you can at least get a LOT of bad press for TWC.

Satch Man

03-29-07, 09:23 PM

The meeting was very good,

You guys should watch it! People talked about a lot of the issues mentioned on the boards here. I think that the biggest problems that were addressed were implementation of the new Navigator product. It just was not tested throughly enough before successful launching. What did the rest of you think about the meeting?

Jack

holl_ands

03-30-07, 02:26 AM

Satch Man

03-30-07, 01:16 PM

Here's the local newspaper report on the meeting:
http://journalstar.com/articles/2007/03/28/news/local/doc4609d6fe73c8c700904801.txt

Local TWC rep testified that she didn't know what problems other Digital Navigator
"guinea pig" tester divisions were having.....obviously no one is talking to anyone else....

I think what has happened in general with the new guide and the overall attitudes of many younger service engineers and techs is that they are so into the "Wow! It's new, so it is so cool!" feeling that they are trying to pass off on everyone. While there are still some good techs out there, the level of competence concerning how to develop software needs to be further addressed. It's like one of the subscribers at the meeting said, the implementation of how this new upgrade was developed was very poor. In practice, to put it bluntly, it SUCKED!

What this gentlemen said is true of so much of the new technology. When you Beta test, and even if you don't like the word "Beta", fine. But when you test a new product you gradually roll it out to your employees first for three months. Than, you do a test market with 100-200 subscribers, WITH A FORM LETTER EXPLAINING THINGS LIKE: "You are being selected as part of the Time Warner Cable Community to test and evaluate our new Digital Program Guide, Navigator.

Please note that you may experience some bugs and system slow downs with this new upgrade. We would appreciate your assistance if you have any problems. Please do not hesitate to contact us, we need your feedback."

That way, from this select sample, you have only 200 Po'd people who at least know they may have some Po'd days and nights with their cable service. YOU DON'T MASS MARKET A MAJOR UPGRADE LIKE THIS, UNTIL TEST PERFORMANCE IS SHOWN TO EQUAL OR EXCEED THE PRODUCT THAT WAS REPLACED!

Nowhere in any information that I have read about this roll-out, has any honesty about the fact that subscribers may have problems with the upgrade been found in Time Warner's correspondence! If Time Warner would have said that from the beginning and been up-front about such issues, instead of the "New and Cool Charade" I think people would have been less upset than they are now.

I forgot the General Manager's name of the Time Warner Cable-Nebraska division, but if she expects this new system to be marketed nationwide by July, in my view, TWC has a long way to go yet to get the bugs out if this national roll-out month holds.

Jack

pepar

03-30-07, 04:46 PM

I think what has happened in general with the new guide and the overall attitudes of many younger service engineers and techs is that they are so into the "Wow! It's new, so it is so cool!" feeling that they are trying to pass off on everyone. While there are still some good techs out there, the level of competence concerning how to develop software needs to be further addressed. It's like one of the subscribers at the meeting said, the implementation of how this new upgrade was developed was very poor. In practice, to put it bluntly, it SUCKED!

What this gentlemen said is true of so much of the new technology. When you Beta test, and even if you don't like the word "Beta", fine. But when you test a new product you gradually roll it out to your employees first for three months. Than, you do a test market with 100-200 subscribers, WITH A FORM LETTER EXPLAINING THINGS LIKE: "You are being selected as part of the Time Warner Cable Community to test and evaluate our new Digital Program Guide, Navigator.

Please note that you may experience some bugs and system slow downs with this new upgrade. We would appreciate your assistance if you have any problems. Please do not hesitate to contact us, we need your feedback."

That way, from this select sample, you have only 200 Po'd people who at least know they may have some Po'd days and nights with their cable service. YOU DON'T MASS MARKET A MAJOR UPGRADE LIKE THIS, UNTIL TEST PERFORMANCE IS SHOWN TO EQUAL OR EXCEED THE PRODUCT THAT WAS REPLACED!

Nowhere in any information that I have read about this roll-out, has any honesty about the fact that subscribers may have problems with the upgrade been found in Time Warner's correspondence! If Time Warner would have said that from the beginning and been up-front about such issues, instead of the "New and Cool Charade" I think people would have been less upset than they are now.

I forgot the General Manager's name of the Time Warner Cable-Nebraska division, but if she expects this new system to be marketed nationwide by July, in my view, TWC has a long way to go yet to get the bugs out if this national roll-out month holds.
I've gotten argument on this before, and I understand that in the purest sense, it is a valid argument - I consider cable to be a monopoly. They certainly have exclusive (and excluding) agreements with the municipalities that they serve. But in my mind, the surest indicator that they have a monopoly is the arrogance with which they implement changes in service, channel line-up and, to the subject of this thread, program guides/software.

I am mightily impressed by this Lincoln situation - or more correctly, I am impressed by the citizens (and solons) of Lincoln. They strike me as modern day Minutemen! Huzzah!

DoubleDAZ

03-31-07, 09:54 AM

Satch Man

03-31-07, 02:01 PM

pepar

03-31-07, 02:13 PM

But you know,

You've got to feel bad for the poor Customer Service Reps. answering the phones because they are forced to follow the script and have no control over how Navigator works. A few years ago, I talked to a great CSR. I said that what TWC needs is a direct number to talk to a technician. He said, "Oh yea, I wish we did. But they would probably talk over our heads if we had that number." He said, it would still be nice to have.

The point is, the customer, or at least the CSR needs a more direct link to the technicians, engineers, and linemen. Then, they could give more accurate information to the customer with regards to what's going on with system changes and updates. TWC needs to test and retest their technicians to make sure that they have above-average abilities in answering questions and solving issues with the new Navigator software.
Ah yes, but we're dreamin.' The whole purpose of voice mail menu trees is to NOT have you talk to a human, much less one who is a technician, engineer or lineman.

Riverside_Guy

03-31-07, 04:36 PM

SARA has some decent recording options now, but there is still no search to speak of or any of the other Passport niceties, like display graphics. But compared to Navigator, SARA works quite well, especially for those of us who have not had Passport or Tivo. Anyone who has/had Passport will not be satisfied with SARA, though it would be better than your beta Navigator.

Glad you say this, I keep thinking of a member here who went from Pass. to SARA and posted some significant details of how he "stepped back" with SARA.

As for beefing SARA up to meet some Passport things and using that into the future, my guess would be that TWC decided it was cheaper to develop the software themselves (ODN) than pay an outside company. AND from the whole Lincoln experience, we can judge them as 100% incapable to proper software development (IMO foisting pre-alpha software on paying customers is a hanging offense!).

Satch Man

03-31-07, 07:19 PM

Questions for each of you with Navigator?

Did you get a notice of the upgrade in the mail before it was done and if you have multiple boxes in your home, did you get a notice for each of the boxes around the time that they were to be upgraded?

Jack

twitchee3

03-31-07, 07:20 PM

But you know,

You've got to feel bad for the poor Customer Service Reps. answering the phones because they are forced to follow the script and have no control over how Navigator works. A few years ago, I talked to a great CSR. I said that what TWC needs is a direct number to talk to a technician. He said, "Oh yea, I wish we did. But they would probably talk over our heads if we had that number." He said, it would still be nice to have.

The point is, the customer, or at least the CSR needs a more direct link to the technicians, engineers, and linemen. Then, they could give more accurate information to the customer with regards to what's going on with system changes and updates. TWC needs to test and retest their technicians to make sure that they have above-average abilities in answering questions and solving issues with the new Navigator software.

Jack
All I can say is that it definately rubs me the wrong way when I call a company (almost always the cable company) and I know more about their products than their employees who are supposed to sell said products to me!

WTF is that all about?

Remember when salemen came to your door and knew the ins and outs of their products. Wasn't it these "special features" that made you choose their product? *sigh,* cable and their monopolies =(

LL3HD

03-31-07, 07:24 PM

All I can say is that it definately rubs me the wrong way when I call a company (almost always the cable company) and I know more about their products than their employees who are supposed to sell said products to me!

WTF is that all about?

Remember when salemen came to your door and knew the ins and outs of their products. Wasn't it these "special features" that made you choose their product? *sigh,* cable and their monopolies =(Yeah I know what you mean.

But I bet if you wanted to know how the weather is in Banglaore-- they’d know that! :rolleyes:

indiblue

04-01-07, 01:12 AM

kcmotwcuser - I'm here in KC too. I've been having a terrible time w/ my SA2100 box working with Tivo. I had a tech guy come out early on in the Navigator era and he said that they were "purposely" making Navigator uncompatible w/ Tivo so we have to buy their DVR. My box turns off at least 1x/day and I end up tivoing black all day. When the box is actually ON, I only get the channels changing correctly 75% of the time. Well, after getting a bill for $40 more than usual and watching the box shut off 2x in 1.5 hours on Saturday, I had had it and called to complain for the 3rd time. Apparently the bill was a "glitch" and it's really only going up $2-something a month. She finally offered me DVR for 3 free months to try out. I asked if the new box was going to have Navigator or Passport on it, and she said Navigator but said it really was going to be getting better. We both laughed! I had just enough time to run over to OP to get the new box tonight before closing, and much to my delight, it still had Passport on it. I feel like I've died and gone to heaven. But my question for you is, what is your friend saying about the roll-out timeframe for Navigator to the 8300 boxes? BTW, I got a HD box because they were out of the regular DVR boxes.

holl_ands

04-01-07, 10:29 AM

LL3HD

04-01-07, 12:50 PM

Following may be of interest... :) Thanks, now my watch is correct :cool:

Satch Man

04-01-07, 01:08 PM

pepar

04-01-07, 01:11 PM

Satch Man

04-01-07, 01:55 PM

pepar

04-01-07, 02:38 PM

Yea, my bad!

I forgot about Comcast

Jack
Our system was only recently purchased by them, but I'm sure that in the not too distant future I will want to forget about them as well. ;)

Riverside_Guy

04-01-07, 03:05 PM

Following may be of interest if you're chasing a time error problem:

The "time" displayed on my SA8300HD (TWC-San Diego) was frequently late
by 15-30 seconds, so my recordings were missing the beginning of the hour.

After explaining the difference between various timekeeping systems
to the TWC-SD techs, the problem is much less frequent:
http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
UTC (apparently what the networks use)
GPS Time (currently 14 seconds later, no leap second corrections)
TAI "Standard" Time (via official Atomic time standards, currently 33 seconds later)

Some on-line UTC time sources:
http://www.time.gov/
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/what.html
[Note that voice announcements are 30 seconds late!!!!]

And if I manually synchronized my PC's Clock using the Internet Time tab,
it would be about 20 (not 14, not 33) seconds later than UTC!!!!
[Right now, it just gives me a "stratum" error....huh???]

Holy smokes, I would have sworn "GPS" used Zulu time. Matter of fact, the atomic clock out in CO puts out UTC/GMT time. Which I'm pretty sure all the NTP time servers (where a lot of computers get their time from) also use (I think NTP gets it's hack from the CO clock).

In point of fact, I HAD noticed that TWC DOES carry a time that is off from this standard. I clearly remember the minute turn over not happening the same as my clock. Interesting, I just checked it and the time on the cable box and in the screens seem to be on the money with UTC time.

My understanding of the "atomic" thing is that it's function is to essentially count seconds (using atomic delay...). Set a time, start the atomic clock and 10 years later it should tick off EXACTLY how many seconds should have ticked off relative to the original "time."

One very cool thing many might not know is that the CO clock is pretty intelligent. It also "broadcasts" a code that denotes EST/DST. My "atomic" watch can be set so that it follows this additional bit of data ("auto set DST"). So when the new time change came this year, my watch was 100% on the button, needing NO manual intervention and no "firmware update" necessary. AND I remember 2 years ago one of the time changes it did NOT show the correctly... then I realized it did NOT receive the daily signal that night! It did that night and thus had the correct time the next day.

twitchee3

04-01-07, 05:58 PM

I have provided a list of most of the other major companies in the United States. Can anyone tell me or research what digital program guide they are using and any +'s and -'s with that product? Is the Navigator name exclusively owned and copyrighted by TWC?

At any rate, here are the other companies:

Adelphia

Cox

Charter

Cablevision

Comcast

Jack
Which guide your cable company uses is much less dependent on who the provider is, than where your physical location is. Most currently existing cable systems were deployed by service providers we've probably never heard of, one example being GTE Americast (what we used to have here in SoCal). Since then, larger cable conglomorates have bought out many of these smaller outfits and consolidated cable markets across the nation. The singe biggest factor determining the software on your box is whether the cable infrastructure installed in your service area was built for the Motorola or Scientific Atlanta hardware standards. This determines whether you get an SA or Motorola (or compatible) set top box.

Further, cable companies don't really have "standard" software for their STB's, they just use what's convenient or what's available. For example, i know that Time Warner Cable currently services STB's using the following program guides in different markets around the country: Moxi, Passport, Navigator, and i-Guide. There may be more, but those are the ones i'm aware of. Some SA boxes use an IPG called SARA, and some of the Motorola DCT units run on a Microsoft IPG. As far as i know, those are the most common and widely deployed IPG's used by US cable companies.

Satch Man

04-01-07, 11:11 PM

Which guide your cable company uses is much less dependent on who the provider is, than where your physical location is. Most currently existing cable systems were deployed by service providers we've probably never heard of, one example being GTE Americast (what we used to have here in SoCal). Since then, larger cable conglomerates have bought out many of these smaller outfits and consolidated cable markets across the nation. The singe biggest factor determining the software on your box is whether the cable infrastructure installed in your service area was built for the Motorola or Scientific Atlanta hardware standards. This determines whether you get an SA or Motorola (or compatible) set top box.

Further, cable companies don't really have "standard" software for their STB's, they just use what's convenient or what's available. For example, i know that Time Warner Cable currently services STB's using the following program guides in different markets around the country: Moxi, Passport, Navigator, and i-Guide. There may be more, but those are the ones i'm aware of. Some SA boxes use an IPG called SARA, and some of the Motorola DCT units run on a Microsoft IPG. As far as i know, those are the most common and widely deployed IPG's used by US cable companies.

Here in the Milwaukee area, serviced ALL by Time Warner, our digital boxes are Pioneer, Pace, and SA. All DVR's to my knowledge are SA's, regardless of whether they are SD or HD in this area. I think here, your guide is either Navigator or Passport. Oddly enough, I found out that the original Passport software was called "The Navigator Guide." But, it's easier to differentiate when you refer to the older (BUT MUCH BETTER) guide as Passport and the newer (BUT MUCH WORSE) guide as Navigator.

Fortunately, I still have Passport on my Pioneer box. But I have a feeling that the months are numbered. Worse, it may come down to days. I wonder how double-awful this has to be for elderly people who may have trouble navigator the customary Passport guide as it is. And how many people really check their cable mail for anything other than billing information from their cable company? (I do, because I am into that sort of thing.) But can you see some poor unfortunate senior citizens waking up one morning and finding out that their whole cable menus have changed?

I wonder how much TMC had concerns about the TYPES of customers, such as the elderly, who you would believe would have to be even MORE negatively affected by this upgrade. Think about this: If supposed experienced personnel and techno-geeks can't figure out the system or get bugs out, how the hell can TWC expect elderly or disabled people to understand it?

The General Manager of TWC-Lincoln Nebraska said that "The Learning Curve" for the new Navigator Program Guide may have been deeper than we realized." Well that's the understatement of the year! TWC has alienated many of it's most loyal users with this new system. TWC didn't just deepen "The Learning Curve," They took a fine running Windows XP Pro type system, (Not using Windows Vista in this example because it's still too buggy, like Navigator! hahaha) and they replaced it with a Radio Shack TRS-80!

Jack

pepar

04-02-07, 10:01 AM

The General Manager of TWC-Lincoln Nebraska said that "The Learning Curve" for the new Navigator Program Guide may have been deeper than we realized." Well that's the understatement of the year! TWC has alienated many of it's most loyal users with this new system. TWC didn't just deepen "The Learning Curve," They took a fine running Windows XP Pro type system, (Not using Windows Vista in this example because it's still too buggy, like Navigator! hahaha) and they replaced it with a Radio Shack TRS-80!
I do not believe the GM; that person is a liar following the company's damage control line, or they are totally incompetent. (No, I'm not taking bets.) What woulkd cause them to roll out an incomplete piece of software? Savings they will realize in NOT paying Aptiv for more Passport licenses? Savings in tech support by having a more homogeneous system? Additional revenue from new services? What? WHAT?

:confused:

Crazywoody

04-02-07, 02:27 PM

Thank god for SARA.Would i rather have Passport but SARA is years ahead of NAVIGATOR as a stable platform.Slap a good seach engine on SARA and lets keep it.

xnappo

04-03-07, 09:58 AM

If they continue with Navigator is will be next year before we will see CID or SDV, as they are using all their time to plug the holes and painting over all the rust spot. You can only pour so much money and time into a junker car before you need to admit you have junk and it needs to be sent to the crusher.

Well just to add to the fun, I will mention that here in Austin we are a test market for SDV(w/SARA). There are fun bugs here too. Like setting up to record one channel and then finding you got a recording of another show on another channel(DVR)! Or setting up a schedule tune to record via VCR and getting a black screen on your tape(3250).

On the plus side our cable is now 100% digital when tuned through an STB... Also viewing 'normally' the SDV stations tune very quickly - you can't even tell without looking in the diag pages.

xnappo

le_vampyre

04-03-07, 11:42 AM

I do not believe the GM; that person is a liar following the company's damage control line, or they are totally incompetent.

There's no integrity left anymore. No one is accountable.

I was told that Navigator was an idea from old coots from their corporate ivory towers. The local divisions have no say in the matter and are being forced to switch - Time Warner Cable has paid heavily for developing and shelving, then redesigning the Navigator fifty times to bring it to what it is today. They've spent much more in development (and the word is - may spend probably about $100 million before they get to Navigator for Motorola systems). So the divisions have to be forced into swapping. Never doesn't matter if they lose revenue or customers.

I wonder how all this will go along with their IPO?

pepar

04-03-07, 03:14 PM

Since I have both Passport and Navigator in my house, I hooked them up side by side this weekend. I did a few comparisons between the 2. Here are the highlights. This is 8300HD DVR with Passport and SA2100 with Navigator.

Passport v. Navigator (v. SARA)
The differences you cite are the differences I would expect between a SOFTWARE company doing software, and a hardware company and a cable company trying to do software. :rolleyes: I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

Riverside_Guy

04-04-07, 02:45 PM

Wonder if they thought of doing that in the design labs, so they know how/what works.

Huh? TWC has a "design lab?"

Based on your excellent comparison, one can only conclude they have no clue what design is all about. Not to mention the efficiency of the software, a really lost art these days.

The ONLY slightly good news is they seem to be holding it back from the DVR...

Bulldog1975

04-05-07, 12:14 AM

Any speculation on what one should make of the first sentence in the following article in tomorrow's Lincoln Journal Star?

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/04/04/news/local/doc4614620b6c2a7768946968.txt

A Time Warner Cable official said Wednesday the company may return to Passport, the digital cable programming guide it replaced last fall with company-created Navigator.

“On all levels, we’re looking at every option as what to do now,” said Ann Shrewsbury, public affairs director of Time Warner’s Nebraska division. “Everything is on the table for remedies and solutions.”

Shrewsbury's comment came after the city’s Cable TV Advisory Board voted 7-0 to create subcommittees to discuss hardware and software issues concerning Navigator and Time Warner’s customer service as part of the cable company’s performance evaluation.
The evaluation is in response to a recent City Council resolution. The city’s franchise agreement with Time Warner allows the advisory board to conduct an annual evaluation.

City Council member Jonathan Cook introduced the resolution in early March after hearing of customer complaints about Time Warner’s new Navigator programming guide and software problems relating to it.

The board held a public hearing March 27 and has since solicited public comments via e-mail, mail, faxes and telephone calls. So far, the city has received about 400 responses.

From those responses, the board formed and forwarded about 100 questions to Time Warner. Beth Scarborough, Time Warner Nebraska division president, said she would have answers for the board by April 13.

Advisory board vice chairman Stuart Long summarized some of the subscriber questions in a memo to the board. The questions ranged from specifics about Navigator to why there is no cable competition in Lincoln.

“These aren’t my questions,” he said. “These are questions from the customers. These are questions our final report (to the City Council) ought to answer.”

Time Warner, the nation’s second-largest cable company, has been under fire locally since it dropped the contracted Passport channel guide last fall in favor of Navigator for its digital subscribers.

The cable company changed the guide to make it compatible with other software programs coming down the line.

The change affects 46,000 digital cable subscribers in Southeast Nebraska, including 33,200 in Lincoln.

Time Warner has 110,000 cable television subscribers in Southeast Nebraska, with 75,000 of them in Lincoln.

Subscribers complained that the new guide is inferior to the old one and that they had difficulties with their digital or DVR boxes after the guides were loaded.

“I just want it to work right,” subscriber Lisa Blakey told the board Wednesday night. “I would give anything to go back to what we had before.”

The board also discussed looking into an impartial survey of subscribers to gauge satisfaction levels, but took no formal action.

“I want to know if every (subscriber) is equally unhappy,” board member Laurie Thomas Lee said.

Shrewsbury said after the meeting that Time Warner also plans to survey its customers.

“We’re taking this all very seriously locally and on the national level,” she said. “We are listening to our customers and are open to what is best with the least amount of consequences.”

The advisory board will meet again at 4 p.m. April 26 at the City County Building to discuss recommendations of the subcommittees, which will meet in the interim.

Could be the result of an overzealous reporter and an eager-to-please Public Affairs director; however Ms. Shrewsbury is usually pretty careful about speaking on substantive issues without company authorization.

I assume that if that's just a misquote, the article will quickly disappear, followed soon after by my post to this AVS forum. If it's real, the next 24 hours might be interesting.

pepar

04-05-07, 09:27 AM

Could be the result of an overzealous reporter and an eager-to-please Public Affairs director; however Ms. Shrewsbury is usually pretty careful about speaking on substantive issues without company authorization.

I assume that if that's just a misquote, the article will quickly disappear, followed soon after by my post to this AVS forum. If it's real, the next 24 hours might be interesting.
Could also be a diversionary tactic - their equivalent of "Hey, look over there!" when caught screwing the pooch.

Satch Man

04-05-07, 10:19 AM

Any speculation on what one should make of the first sentence in the following article in tomorrow's Lincoln Journal Star?

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/04/04/news/local/doc4614620b6c2a7768946968.txt

Could be the result of an overzealous reporter and an eager-to-please Public Affairs director; however Ms. Shrewsbury is usually pretty careful about speaking on substantive issues without company authorization.

I assume that if that's just a misquote, the article will quickly disappear, followed soon after by my post to this AVS forum. If it's real, the next 24 hours might be interesting.

It's misleading,

With regards to "the company official" saying that TWC might return to Passport, was this Ms. Shrewsbury, or someone else? I think it's a load of hot air and that they are just telling customers what they want to hear!

At least I still have Passport on my Pioneer box in Milwaukee WI! I'll keep you guys posted on any changes as best I can.

Jack

Riverside_Guy

04-06-07, 01:22 PM

michaeltscott

04-06-07, 01:35 PM

It COULD mean they will go back to Passport UNTIL Navigator is "better" than their pre-alpha release. I would NOT count on being able to use Passport for very long, SDV and OCAP are totally the future (although for us, SDV allowing more HD channels to be delivered are BIG pluses, OCAP essentially means they will have new services to SELL to us).What's the distinction again? HD channels are new services to SELL to us. Like anything that costs a lot of money for a major corporation to do, it's all about profit.

Satch Man

04-06-07, 03:01 PM

I raised these issues in the Consumer Input Thread about Navigator,

But since this is the official TWC Navigator thread, I will restate some of my thoughts here:

It appears that MOST of the problems with regards to TWC Navigator are originating from TWC's Lincoln Nebraska head-end. However, it is very likely that these issues with Navigator are occurring in other cities where this product has been implemented. The questions that I believe the TWC-Lincoln Nebraska review board should consider are the following:

1.) Are these issues related exclusively to Navigator in Lincoln Nebraska? What is the extent to which other cities and states are having problems with the new system?

2.) How often are the hardware/software elements of TWC's network updated and maintained? Could the Navigator's slow response time and unpredictable rebooting processes be related to compatibility issues on the head-end network as opposed to the software itself? How is updated information transmitted or routed from the signal's head-end to the boxes, regardless of whether they use Passport or Navigator? How often are the routers transmitting the information updated at the head end?

3. What types of problems or compatibility conflicts are occurring with regards to Navigator installed on DVR boxes verses non-DVR boxes?

4. What are the plans for updating the boxes? Is it done by make/model? Location where the customer lives? What can the customer expect during the download/update process? Is there anything that the customer should or should not do to their boxes during the update process? How long does the update take?

Jack

Riverside_Guy

04-07-07, 10:51 AM

What's the distinction again? HD channels are new services to SELL to us. Like anything that costs a lot of money for a major corporation to do, it's all about profit.

HD channels CAN be ones they sell to us, but I'll assume you're talking about SDV. How about all those years when we PAID for HD channels that came with ALL premium packages... but didn't get? Yes in NYC they "added" Starz and Cinemax HD last fall, but customers HAVE been paying for them if they subscribed to those services for years.

Do you really think TWC's carriage deals go down to the neighborhood level? Like their "deal" with MHD, FS NY, and A&E HD says they are "allowed" to carry them to only 5% of the cities population? We pay the same rates as that 5% for again we are already paying for what they won't deliver.

Indeed it's all about profit, no issue that profits are maximized when you make folks pay for stuff and then don't give them the stuff they are paying for!

Please understand it's the inequity that gets my gander up!

michaeltscott

04-07-07, 12:41 PM

You can only consider yourself to be "paying" for the sub-services from digital tiers that your provider doesn't carry if the price of those tiers went up when they added the HD channel that you're not getting. I saw those channels being added to Cinemax and Starz! and the prices of premium tiers didn't go up in the systems that I was on.

You're paying for what you bargained for--those channels weren't there when you subscribed to Cinemax and Starz!; if they add them, its nice but your cable provider isn't required to spend his bandwidth that way. If you keep those tiers while being pissed off about not getting the HD ones, that's on you. And there's no guarantee that they'll be in any rush to add them when they set up SDV, since they won't make them any more money.

As for me, there's more HDTV on that I'm interested in than I have time to watch, so if I have one or more of those tiers, its only so that I can get the HD channel and it's the only one that I ever watch. Often, it's just so that I can catch one or more series--I just dumped HBO because Rome ended and picked up Showtime for The Tudors.

Riverside_Guy

04-08-07, 12:04 PM

Have to disagree Mike, the reason prices did NOT go up when we finally got those HD channels very much does mean we HAD been paying for it! When I signed up for HBO and Starz, 100% it was marketed (from HBO and Starz) as having an HD channel AND a On Demand service. TWC did not say "oh, we have decided NOT to supply some of the channels you are paying for so we'll discount your service charges until we DO carry those additional channels."

Even so, what really upsets me far more is what I call inequity. As in treating some of your customers one way while treating others very differently. By their own actions, it's way clear where they actually face some competition, they bend over backwards for those customers. In areas where they have far more lock-in, those customers get the high hard one. 2 examples, we lose a pay extra channel, they swear they will replace it and rates go up AND they do NOT replace it. Upstate from me, they move ESPN HD to a regular tier, add ESPN2 HD and "compensate" everyone with a full year of FREE SHO. Second, they add 3 new HD channels, but only to 5% of my cities population, when they COULD have added it for all of us. BUT, that 5% live in an area where I think 100% can get Direct or Dish. Where I am, I can't get either. This REALLY is the stuff I am furious about!

Anyway, this is way, way off topic so I'll shut up about it now!

RussB

04-15-07, 04:02 AM

By Kirk Ladendorf
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Sunday, April 08, 2007

. . .

Time Warner Cable, the dominant cable company in Texas, has been getting ready for this battle for years. It continues to strengthen its network and expand its digital offerings and is adding capacity for new high-definition channels.

It's developing an interactive video guide service, called Maestro Digital Navigator, that will offer many of the features that AT&T's and Verizon's guides have, including advanced search functions.

. . .

http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/technology/04/08/8iptv.html

pkscout

04-15-07, 10:24 AM

By Kirk Ladendorf
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Sunday, April 08, 2007

. . .

It's developing an interactive video guide service, called Maestro Digital Navigator, that will offer many of the features that AT&T's and Verizon's guides have, including advanced search functions.

. . .

If this AVS thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830) is any indication, TWC may have showed up at a gun fight with a knife, and a dull one at that.

xnappo

04-15-07, 04:13 PM

If this AVS thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830) is any indication, TWC may have showed up at a gun fight with a knife, and a dull one at that.

Wow, that is a great thread! Thanks for pointing it out! :P ;)

xnappo

pkscout

04-15-07, 06:24 PM

Wow, that is a great thread! Thanks for pointing it out! :P ;)

Well crap. I thought I made that comment in another thread. Now I have to go check and see if I'm losing my mind of just unable to post properly. ;)

edit: nope, just losing my mind. :D

RandyWalters

04-15-07, 09:15 PM

Well crap. I thought I made that comment in another thread. Now I have to go check and see if I'm losing my mind of just unable to post properly. ;)

edit: nope, just losing my mind. :DI hate when that happens !

It reminds me of a great quote i saw somewhere - "Of all the things i've lost, i miss my mind the most."

MattInLincoln

04-17-07, 01:32 AM

pkscout

04-17-07, 08:25 AM

humdinger70

04-17-07, 12:50 PM

I've seen the Navigator guides and features and the question that needs to be asked is: How is this different (and/or better) than what we have now with Passport? Unless there's been a recent upgrade, we're (TWC San Diego, this applies to several others as well) on the latest version now (2.6.002).

If it's OCAP compliant, that's one thing, but everything else we pretty much have with Passport (disk usage gauge would be nice!).

davehancock

04-17-07, 12:57 PM

MattInLincoln

04-17-07, 12:58 PM

You mean these weren't standard to start with? Nice to see they've caught up with the year 2000 finally. :rolleyes:

I couldn't have said it better myself. Months after the launch we're getting this stuff, when you'd think it would have been in software when it was launched here.

On the Time Warner Info channel this morning it said that this was the first of two upgrades that will occur within the next several weeks. No details about what functionality the next update would bring.

pepar

04-17-07, 02:08 PM

I couldn't have said it better myself. Months after the launch we're getting this stuff, when you'd think it would have been in software when it was launched here.
We need a Ralph Nader. :)

Dorny423

04-17-07, 03:01 PM

Got an automated call from TWC today saying that they're going to be pushing another Navigator update this week.

Features being added:
Show and Series Prioritization
Conflict Resolution
Hard Drive Gas Gauge
New or Repeat episode indicator
Fast Forward Jump Back

More info at:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/Nebraska/products/cable/mdn/Enhancements.html

I got an update today already. The version number is 2.3.32AC-ptv Apr 9 2007.

I haven't messed with it yet to see what is new. I will let you know what I find.

Update: It looks like all of the features mentioned above are there now. I don't really use series recordings (prefer to do it manually). There was an indication of whether a show was new or a repeat before if you hit info while in the guide. Now you don't have to as it is already in the description in bold letters. The fast forward jump back doesn't seem to be very good but I will mess with it more and maybe get used to it. It will at least be better than having to ff at 2x and use the skip back button to resume play. There was already conflict resolution before this so maybe they improved it.

archiguy

04-17-07, 03:49 PM

If it's OCAP compliant, that's one thing, but everything else we pretty much have with Passport (disk usage gauge would be nice!).

You can have the "disk usage" or fuel gauge (a SARA feature I understand). But as a Passporter, please leave me the option of getting into the diagnostic area and seeing exactly how much disk space I've used and how much I have left. I can do my own calculations from that point on (and they'll be more accurate).

Crazywoody

04-17-07, 04:52 PM

With SARA 1.89 you have a gauge or can go to the dio screen and figure it out yourself if you want to.Seems Navigator is going to be a blend of the best of SARA and the best of PASSPORT.

Crazywoody

04-17-07, 04:55 PM

Wonder if NAVIGATOR is going to be tested on some poor sara division before it is released nationwide?

pepar

04-17-07, 04:55 PM

With SARA 1.89 you have a gauge or can go to the dio screen and figure it out yourself if you want to.Seems Navigator is going to be a blend of the best of SARA and the best of PASSPORT.
Or the worst and the worst. :rolleyes:

Crazywoody

04-17-07, 04:59 PM

Or the worst and the worst. :rolleyes:
One never knows with TWC.Maybe we will ge lucky and get the best.

archiguy

04-17-07, 05:23 PM

One never knows with TWC.Maybe we will ge lucky and get the best.

Woody, you may or may not be crazy, but you sure seem to be "crazy optimistic". This is TWC we're talking about. Expect the worst, then at least you won't be too terribly disappointed. So far, Navigator has been a disaster for their customers wherever it's been introduced.

pepar

04-17-07, 06:11 PM

Woody, you may or may not be crazy, but you sure seem to be "crazy optimistic". This is TWC we're talking about. Expect the worst, then at least you won't be too terribly disappointed. So far, Navigator has been a disaster for their customers wherever it's been introduced.
But archiguy, Woody still might get the best. ;)

Satch Man

04-17-07, 06:12 PM

Is it true?

With regards to what the Lincoln Nebraska TMC manager said that Navigator must be rolled out nationwide by July to comply with FCC regulations about some software update? Or is this just a rumor? I am in Suburban Milwaukee Wisconsin with a Pioneer box running Passport. Anyone know when I should expect this Christmas present from TWC that I really DON'T want?

Jack

michaeltscott

04-17-07, 06:23 PM

With SARA 1.89 you have a gauge or can go to the dio screen and figure it out yourself if you want to.Seems Navigator is going to be a blend of the best of SARA and the best of PASSPORT.And what would be the "best" of SARA? I've used both and, except for the implementation of SATA expansion drives being pretty much flawless, SARA does nothing so well as Passport does it. The only thing that can be said for it being superior to what I've heard of Navigator is that SARA actually works as designed.

SARA did have a storage meter, which they've apparently just added to Navigator--maybe that's what you mean (Aptiv announced a version of Passport over a year ago which also added it, though I haven't heard of any place where it was deployed).

davehancock

04-17-07, 07:24 PM

Is it true?

With regards to what the Lincoln Nebraska TMC manager said that Navigator must be rolled out nationwide by July to comply with FCC regulations about some software update? Or is this just a rumor?
No, it's not true. What is true is that as of July 1, 2007 the cable companies can no longer deploy new cable boxes that incorporate internal security. What this means is that newly acquired cable boxes can EITHER use CableCards (For Example the SA8300HDC) or use DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Security). We are a year or two away from having DCAS to the state where it can be deployed - so the CableCard "solution" will be used for awhile. As this solution costs the cable companies more money, they have been trying to "kill" it by trying to pressure the FCC, etc. Apparently this manager either: 1)doesn't really understand the story and is grasping for excuses to justify their poor project management; or 2) is joining in on the "scare" tactics.

davehancock

04-17-07, 07:26 PM

SARA did have a storage meter,SARA STILLhas a storage meter.

holl_ands

04-17-07, 09:10 PM

On July 1, they are ALSO required to work with user-owned STB/DVR/HDTVs employing not only
the current one-way CableCARD, but also new user-owned units running the new OCAP "middleware"
(downloaded from cable headend along with all of the new bells and whistles), which will also
accept the new two-way, dual-stream M-CARD....and DCAS in the future.

Digital Navigator would also be downloaded, although a CE manufacturer may chose to offer their
own variation...just as TiVo will offer their own, extra cost IPG for COMCAST and COX.

Hence cable companies are under the gun to not only hand out OCAP/MCARD enabled STB/DVR's
to "NEW CUSTOMERS", but must also accept new user-owned equipment running the SAME
downloaded OCAP and Digital Navigator software.

Forcing the cable companies to operate with the same new buggy software ("Common Reliance")
has been an important (and legally sustained) requirement reiterated by the consumer equipment manufacturers:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518717081
They will all sink or swim together--- hopefully without the cable companies discriminating against
user-owned equipment, as is done today (and more in future with SDV) wrt CableCARD HDTVs and TiVo Series 3....

NCTA is arguing against the big investment, esp for low-end users:
http://www.ncta.com/IssueBrief.aspx?contentId=3553
But have not been very successful in seeking waivers:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-269446A1.pdf
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=114443&site=cdn
BBN waiver was because it helps them go ALL-DIGITAL....and they were a disadvantaged small company.
CableVision temporary waiver was because they already use separable security.
COMCAST was denied, but they may resubmit....and BBT's DCAS implementation was approved.

While CEA is arguing for a low-end STB that is not OCAP based, as well as trying to push all of this off
until lower cost DCAS is ready.

With CE's investing millions in OCAP/MCARD designs (STB/DVR/HDTVs already demo'd at CES2007),
and cable companies already testing it in limited markets, it's a bit late to put this horse in the barn....
but it might get delayed....after all, it's software....

PS: My (TWC-San Diego) SA3250HD (Firewire source) is currently running OCAP without any problems
(although w/o Digital Navigator....so far).

davehancock

04-17-07, 10:21 PM

michaeltscott

04-17-07, 11:13 PM

The mandate is for separable security--it has nothing to do with OCAP. When the plug-and-play DTV-over-cable spec emerged, the requirement was for the cable providers to stop deploying boxes with integrated conditional access methods by 1 July 2005--they lobbied for and were given a two year extension on this because they wanted to develop OCAP and multistream CableCARDs (M-CARDs) and introduce them concurrently with satisfying the separable security requirement; this extension was granted over the extreme objection of the CE industry. Now, they want a further extension in order to finish developing DCAS, which would eliminate the need for M-CARDs (though not OCAP). I don't think that they're going to be granted one; we're coming up on the 11th anniversary of the separable security mandate.

DoubleDAZ

04-17-07, 11:31 PM

davehancock

04-18-07, 12:00 AM

You''re probably right, but I would think it all depends on how close they are to finishing DCAS. It will be pretty stupid to do something as an interim measure just to meet an arbitrary mandate and twice as stupid if it ends up costing comsumers money for yet another boat anchor.That's what they have been trying to convince the FCC of - but have so far failed and it looks like they will not succeed.

I'm not sure about the "boat anchor" though. All the mandate implies is that they must start using CableCard equipped boxes for NEW installs after 7/1/07. They can recycle boxes currently in customer hands - but they can't purchase new boxes without CableCard after 7/1/07. Suppose they get DCAS running on 7/1/08 (that's what they are claiming). At that point, they can start deploying those boxes, along with the current boxes and the 7/1/07 CableCard equipped boxes.

DoubleDAZ

04-18-07, 01:01 AM

Boat anchor is probably not an appropriate term, but I always worry when the government mandates things and consumers end up buying stuff that is outdated very quickly. I'm looking at OCAP allowing us to buy an STB of choice, I don't really care about the cableco's. I'm sure whatever we buy will still work with CC for a long time, but the point is to have the latest option without wasting money. IMHO, pre-DCAS units are just an interim solution (?) to meet the mandate and will not provide the best solution there is. It looks to me like I'll simply have to keep renting a cable unit until DCAS comes to fruition and then take the plunge into adding my own STB to the equipment cabinet. To me it's akin to those here who "bought" an SA3100HD a month before the SA3250HD was released for "rent". Yes, the 3100 still works, but the 3250 was a better solution given the frequency of change in the world of STBs.

Crazywoody

04-18-07, 08:26 AM

Mike you noticed I said SARA 1.89 not previous versions.1.89 has added the play from beginning while recording that Passport and Tivo already had.However Sara will do SDV and had caller ID on tv screen before Passport.SARA also has a couple of recording options that I do not belive PASSPORT has.SARA also did exterior hard drive add on before PASPORT.Is SARA better than PASPORT NO.But SARA does have several nice features includeing the fuel gauge.Passport has a bunch of features such as a great search engine.That is what I mean about Navigator haveing a blend of SARA and PASSPORT.

Riverside_Guy

04-18-07, 11:01 AM

davehancock

04-18-07, 11:21 AM

Mike you noticed I said SARA 1.89 not previous versions.1.89 has added the play from beginningSorry Crazywoody, but SARA 1.88 added the play from the beginning (etc.). Some cable systems did not adopt 1.88 and went from 1.87 to 1.89. BTW, if you would add your location to your profile it would help put your posts into the right context. ;)

le_vampyre

04-18-07, 12:14 PM

SARA did have a storage meter, which they've apparently just added to Navigator--maybe that's what you mean (Aptiv announced a version of Passport over a year ago which also added it, though I haven't heard of any place where it was deployed).

I've seen the gas gauge/storage meter in Passport Echo on Motorola DVR set tops months ago. It showed everything in hours but I prefer looking at the diag page to tell me the disk space. My cousin has the Motorola set top (via Cox). They actually have a lot more advanced features, games and applications than Passport on Scientifica Atlanta set tops. Some of the applications I recall - like the ability of subscribe to Showtime or HBO from the remote, check your bill, set up your remote, play games, etc.

I think Time Warner probably stopped introducing Passport Echo features to their customers because they were going with Navigator which does not have any of those features or applications. Whether you have Passport or Navigator - You cannot release features and then take them back.

michaeltscott

04-18-07, 03:51 PM

SARA STILLhas a storage meter.Sorry, Dave--I'll watch my verb tenses a little more closely in the future :D. I was so traumatized by my experience with SARA that I try always to think of it in the past-tense :).
I've seen the gas gauge/storage meter in Passport Echo on Motorola DVR set tops months ago. It showed everything in hours but I prefer looking at the diag page to tell me the disk space. My cousin has the Motorola set top (via Cox). They actually have a lot more advanced features, games and applications than Passport on Scientifica Atlanta set tops. Some of the applications I recall - like the ability of subscribe to Showtime or HBO from the remote, check your bill, set up your remote, play games, etc.Yeah--Aptiv Digital made this (http://www.aptivdigital.com/presscenter/pressreleasesdetail.asp?ID=5) announcement of Passport Echo and Passport DCT (for Moto boxes) 2.7 in October 2005, which has their iSubscribe and Video Mosaic features as well as the View Disk Info option (apparently on the Saved Shows dialog). I hadn't heard anyone in these forums claim to be using it, but we don't have a Passport/Cox thread that I know of.
However Sara will do SDV and had caller ID on tv screen before Passport.SARA also has a couple of recording options that I do not belive PASSPORT has.SARA also did exterior hard drive add on before PASPORT.Is SARA better than PASPORT NO.But SARA does have several nice features includeing the fuel gauge.Passport has a bunch of features such as a great search engine.That is what I mean about Navigator haveing a blend of SARA and PASSPORT.I mentioned that the expansion drive worked flawlessly--I still have a 300GB drive that I was using with my old Cox SARA box. Unfortunately, TiVo's SATA expansion drive feature is currently disabled pending CableLab's approval (it has to store DFAST "Controlled Content" as decoded by CableCARDs).

SDV has got to be implemented in PowerTV middleware and not by the IPG itself. The IPG (SARA, Passport, Navigator, etc) obtains a new channel number either by direct keypad input or from grid-row selection and passes it off to some closer-to-the-metal part of the system to do the tuning, which is where SDV protocols come in (currently, all SDV protocols are proprietary). Passport should be able to use the routines just as easily as any other IPG. If I were the PowerTV group, I'd have invisibly changed the "change channel" API to do SDV.

Do you know of any features other than Caller-ID on screen (if and only if you're a cable telephone subscriber), SATA expansion drives (which no one knows if TWC will support with Navigator, since they don't openly support it now with SARA or Passport) and the storage "fuel gauge" (which I've argued several times in these forums that Passport has no need for with its clever system of graphical impending deletion warnings and ability to sort the saved programs list into order-of-desired-deletion)? I'm pretty certain that SARA doesn't have any recording options that Passport doesn't--Passport's recording features are all-in-all more powerful than TiVo's.

Don't mind me--I'm just still bitter after my nightmare experience going from Passport to SARA (eventually giving up and investing $1000 into TiVo Series 3 plus 3 years of TiVo service).

UnnDunn

04-18-07, 04:23 PM

Crazywoody

04-18-07, 04:26 PM

SARA 1.89 in Greensboro NC here.Actually SARA has more recordin options than TIVO.I used to have a TIVo and miss its interface but sara does have more options.You can record any day i this time slot,any day this channel this time slot,single shows,all shows,first run only or select only the days you want to record something(Manual recording here).Passport lets you pick your days which is simular to sara manal recording mom. friday only ect.Tivo onmy had add or first run or manual recording.Ask any Tivo user how to record only one copy ofthe Daily show.I have used Tivo, Passport and SARA all have thre good and bad points.However all this is moot because sooner or later wqe will have Navigator.I just want it to perform smoothly as SARA and have the Passport features.Hope we all wish for this goal.

Crazywoody

04-18-07, 05:34 PM

Mike i feel your pain.I went from TIVO to sara 1.85 and what a bummer.No first run,no play from beginning barely a dvr.Over the years it became a fairly nice dvr.My brother in law in Raleigh has passport and i played a lot with it in envy.However sara 1.89 is a fairly good dvr(not passport or tivo but much better than early sara editions)Let's just hope Navigator gets as feature rich as passport and as stable as sara.

michaeltscott

04-19-07, 12:55 AM

I should think that the OCAP engine for a SA platform would be built on top of PowerTV, just as the Java VM that you're using on your PC is built on top of Windows or Unix/Linux, etc.

holl_ands

04-19-07, 04:15 AM

No, the M-card is still a one-way CableCARD, it just has the ability to decode two or more streams simultaneously, removing the need to have a CableCARD for each QAM tuner a la TiVo HD.
The MCARD has the ability to mimic current one-way CableCARD-I functions,
and up to SIX one-way CableCARDs, via multistream function.

It ALSO has the ability to perform two-way, multistream operations when used with new
equipment that has OCAP download capability to take advantage of this new feature:
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/products/customers/G1654A-4250C.pdf

Here are links to new OCAP STBs with MCARD and DSG:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/2/5561.html#POST28633
DSG (DOCSIS Gateway) is a new feature that is needed for "instantaneous" response
to FF/RW commands (read back 2 posts)....which requires new (OCAP/MCARD) STB/DVR/HDTVs...
It's actually a hardware issue (new, high speed QAM256 vice QPSK RDC modulator), vice software.

Note that MCARD (Motorola) and "Multistream CableCARD" (SciAtl) are interchangeable terms.

holl_ands

04-19-07, 04:34 AM

Crazy, read some of Mike Scott's posts, he went from Passport to SARA so he very much experienced both.

Question, a multi-stream "M-Card" was mentioned. Is this what is also called "cable card 2.0" or "2 way cable card?"

I think a LOT of us (on cable systems) would love it if the FCC mandated the cable cos to replace all analog cable STBs, but I doubt that would ever happen! Then again, I really wonder for each specific market, what are the deployed percentages?

BTW, does public data exist that shows exactly how many customers each cable co has in each location?
MCARD, CC-II, 2-way CC are all the same thing, a "Multistream CableCARD".

Here is data re Cable and SAT penetration in various DMAs:
www.tvb.org
Go to RESEARCH CENTER, MARKET TRACK, "Cable and ADS Penetration by DMA"
"ADS" is mostly D*, E* and C-Band.
"Wired Cable" includes all cable subscribers.
"Subscription" seems to mean extra cost (digital/premium) tier subscribers.

Since roughy half of all cable customers are NOT using digital STB (or CableCARD),
it's gonna be difficult convincing them it's a good thing to add an STB for every TV
in the house that's currently connected directly to coax....maybe by Feb2009,
when even OTA will require either a built-in ATSC tuner or an OTA STB.

holl_ands

04-19-07, 05:31 AM

I could well be wrong on this, but I do not believe that the FCC has mandated anything yet in regards to OCAP. They have required regular reporting on progress on this, but as far as I have been able to find, they have not mandated any particular solution. The CableCards are currently the only obvious solution.

I would very much appreciate any links that you might have to FCC documentation (beyond their 2nd report and order, dated 3/17/05) that sheds additional light on just what is required on 7/1/07.

Thanks
I believe you are correct, the FCC has not stipulated a particular solution....their role
is to ensure that proposed solutions fulfill legal and regulatory requirements.....
which leaves a LOT of undefined territory to wander about in....

However, they have approved certain CEA/NCTA proposals for achieving separable security via CableLabs.
CableCARD was one such interim proposal with OCAP/MCARD proposed and approved as a longer term solution.
Subsequently, most cable companies jumped on the bandwagon....
Somewhat by default, it's the primary game plan for Jul2007.

Recently, CableVision's SmartCard was temporarily approved as a separable security method,
primarily because an adapter could plug into CableCARD slots....
But it was not endorsed for long term use.

One (proprietary) DCAS implementation was also recently endorsed.

Whenever the other MSOs finish their DCAS specifications, et.al., a specific proposal
would need to be submitted for approval (2008?)

On 7Nov2006, CEA floated a proposal for a reduced capability, non-OCAP solution,
but NCTA shot it down with extreme prejudice, including a strong letter from "Hollywood":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10126886#post10126886
Many times it is interesting to see the FCC's reasoning....and industry arguments/comments.....
and not just final YES/NO rulings....cuz next time round your opponent will use them against you.....

I can't find CEA documents on their website, but www.ncta.com carefully addresses each Issue,
e.g. see DCR/CableCARD and Integration Ban.

The rest are under FCC's CS Docket 97-80:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.cgi
Enter 97-80 into first field and try to limit search dates....
Forget trying to use FCC's normal text search engine....it's a disaster left over from the 80's...

Here are some TiVo forum posts with a few highlights for same subject:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/printthread.php?t=345432&page=2&pp=30
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=335852

PS: There are two "Second Order and Report" re Navigation Devices,
the first in 2003, establishing the rules:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-03-225A1.pdf
and 2005 follow up "Second Report and Order", with updates and extension to 1Jul2007:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-76A1.pdf

What's missing are various court rulings.....alluded to in the arguments/comments....

xnappo

04-19-07, 11:42 AM

holl_ands,

Thanks very much for clearing things up!

xnappo

davehancock

04-19-07, 12:00 PM

Forget trying to use FCC's normal text search engine....it's a disaster left over from the 80's...Ain't that the TRUTH! :D It sure makes it difficult to really know what is going on.

I'm glad to see that your info pretty much lines up with mine.

While DCAS and OCAP do not appear to, themselves, be mandated - it seems that this certainly is the direction that everyone is headed.

But that makes me wonder: when you buy your new TiVo Series 4 (the next one that I am assuming will be fully OCAP/DCAS capable) and you start aving the kinds of problems that SA8300 owners typically have - who do you complain to? Who will "fix" it? Cable, TiVo, the TiVo dealer? :confused:

Satch Man

04-19-07, 12:40 PM

If all these enhancements to Navigator really work in the release that Lincoln is getting then Navigator is getting closer to Passport as features. But from the screen shot is saw on the Lincoln web site, Navigator still has a long way to being as visually attractive as Passport. It looks like the graphics are still crap and the banners are huge and solid. Passport still has the visual edge.

I will say TWC has really been working overtime to get these missing features back into Navigator. I know I would be really unhappy if I lost my series priority setting option that I have in Passport. I think that is the main reason there have been so many complaints about shows not recording with Navigator. My friend who has Navigator on his DVR said he had to go to the conflict manager everyday and fix conflicts because Navigator did a horrible job and since the 1st run setting usually didn't work either. So if they have gotten these feature stable and functional, then they might get themselves out of some hot water. But if the is full of bugs they will only upset those Lincoln customer more.

Next they need to work on a search engine and better graphics. It is sad that Lincoln has had to deal with this for almost 6 months just to get an IPG that promises to the same features Passport has had for almost 3 years. We all know that hardware is capable of doing the work, it just needs software that is stable.

BTW....Navigator still uses PowerTV, at least the PowerTV logo pops when i reboot my SA2100.

With regards to the inability to change the font/background colors,

Couldn't this be something that they could work on for the next update? Having a choice of say 3-4 more color options might make Navigator more pleasing to the eye. At least Navigator subscribers would be able to change the color scheme.

It could be that they are working on fixing the major bugs first.

Jack

holl_ands

04-19-07, 02:42 PM

Just glanced at a few of the latest postings:

Motorola 2Apr2007 ltr sez they can't make a "low-cost" STB using CableCARD,
and cites similar 14Feb2007 comments from Cisco/SciAtl and PACE:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519110100

COMCAST 10Apr2007 ltr summarized their position against the FCC, listing all of the pending waivers:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519109417
Hmmm....sounds like a court date may be next step....

BBT 16Apr2007 ltr gives considerable insight into the on-going battle for DCAS:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519208090
They are ready for a nation-wide deployment of THEIR "open software" solution.
As usual, it all boils down to who gets the royalties.....

And for consumption by those who speak legaleze:
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05dec20031700/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/octqtr/pdf/47cfr76.1204.pdf
Huh?????

Satch Man

04-20-07, 11:28 AM

Dorny423

04-20-07, 05:32 PM

Everyone,

With the updates being rolled out to your boxes, how much of an improvement have you noticed? Navigator seems to be getting better from what I have heard/read but still has a way to go before it reaches Passport status.

Jack

It's getting better but you are right when you say it isn't Passport. The changes haven't really been that noticeable, this last one has added a few features though that are obvious. The auto loop back after FF or RW is pretty much useless but the others seem to work fine.

BTW TW here in Lincoln announced today that we are getting ESPNU and ESPN2HD June 1st. I was worried we wouldn't with all the Navigator issues. Other markets seem to be getting it already but I can wait a month and half I guess. They are giving us a preview of ESPNU this weekend more than likely because the Husker baseball team is playing on there this Sunday.

davehancock

04-20-07, 05:39 PM

It's getting better but you are right when you say it isn't Passport. The changes haven't really been that noticeable, this last one has added a few features though that are obvious. The auto loop back after FF or RW is pretty much useless but the others seem to work fine.

BTW TW here in Lincoln announced today that we are getting ESPNU and ESPN2HD June 1st. I was worried we wouldn't with all the Navigator issues. Other markets seem to be getting it already but I can wait a month and half I guess. They are giving us a preview of ESPNU this weekend more than likely because the Husker baseball team is playing on there this Sunday.You guys DESERVE all the additional HD channels that they have available!

Crazywoody

04-25-07, 06:18 PM

I understand there were to be two software upgrades to Navigator.Has anyone received the second one yet?Any new features?Also how do the features on the first upgrade work?Are they stable? (SARA 1.89.4 here)Greensboro NC

Dorny423

04-25-07, 08:15 PM

No upgrade here in KC, still have AB. I think they are using Lincoln again to test the latest release. But no feed back from anyone in Lincoln. My friend up there packed it in and switched to Dish as he was so tired of loosing show or having them not record at all.

Any updates of the new release in Lincoln???

I posted this a few days ago. (April 17th)

"I got an update today already. The version number is 2.3.32AC-ptv Apr 9 2007.

I haven't messed with it yet to see what is new. I will let you know what I find.

Update: It looks like all of the features mentioned above are there now. I don't really use series recordings (prefer to do it manually). There was an indication of whether a show was new or a repeat before if you hit info while in the guide. Now you don't have to as it is already in the description in bold letters. The fast forward jump back doesn't seem to be very good but I will mess with it more and maybe get used to it. It will at least be better than having to ff at 2x and use the skip back button to resume play. There was already conflict resolution before this so maybe they improved it."

I haven't noticed a second update that they said was coming and my box doesn't show one. All the features they said they were adding seem to be there. The auto jump back when using ff or rw is about useless like I stated above. It is there but it only jumps back about half of the time needed at any speed used. Hopefully a second update will resolve this.

They are adding ESPNU and ESPN2HD June 1st (as i mentioned in another post) it will be interesting to see how Navigator handles it. I guess the free preview of ESPNU last weekend did show up in the guide and it worked well. So there probably won't be any problems with it.

xnappo

04-25-07, 08:23 PM

Update: It looks like all of the features mentioned above are there now. I don't really use series recordings (prefer to do it manually). There was an indication of whether a show was new or a repeat before if you hit info while in the guide. Now you don't have to as it is already in the description in bold letters. The fast forward jump back doesn't seem to be very good but I will mess with it more and maybe get used to it. It will at least be better than having to ff at 2x and use the skip back button to resume play. There was already conflict resolution before this so maybe they improved it."[/I]

What about stability so far? Reboots, missed recordings etc?

How is the menu response?

Thanks,
xnappo

Dorny423

04-25-07, 08:49 PM

What about stability so far? Reboots, missed recordings etc?

How is the menu response?

Thanks,
xnappo

I haven't had any problems since this update. But I never really had that many problems before it either as far as reboots or lag go.

The missed recordings seem to be coming from people that use the series recordings. I don't use them, I like to look and see what is going to be on and set them manually. So I can't really speak to that or the conflict resolution updates.

I have only had the menu lag issues a couple times. None since this last update. I don't really know if it is solved or not since I rarely had them.

Any random reboots I did have were usually related to the lagging menus.

I haven't heard any complaints from my friends lately so maybe this is a good sign. Or maybe people are just starting to get used to it.

xnappo

04-25-07, 09:27 PM

I haven't had any problems since this update. But I never really had that many problems before it either as far as reboots or lag go.

Thanks!

xnappo

Warpster

04-25-07, 11:16 PM

Well give me a bit and I will post a link to a page explaining the enhancements made here in Lincoln. I need 5 posts!

Warpster

04-26-07, 02:03 AM

http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/products/cable/mdn/enhancements.html

Crazywoody

04-26-07, 08:24 AM

Dorny423

04-26-07, 09:05 AM

I am on SARA 1.89.17 and i have a question.Sara has a feature that if you are recording a show you can press the play from beginning option and watch the show from the start to the end without being kicked out to live when the recording ends.Does Navigator have this feature?If not I sure hope they add it it's one option my wife and I use a lot.

I've never been kicked to live when doing that with Navigator. I used to have that problem with passport long ago.

Before this last update when a show ended and say you had two different things recording at the time you were done you would end up on the DVR playback channel (it shows up as CH. 2000 but isn't in the guide) with a note saying if you want to change channels you had to cancel a recording (you could also just go to one of the channels you were recording on but it didn't tell you that option). In the new update it just takes you to a channel that is recording at that time (if you have two going otherwise it is whatever channel you were previously watching).

xnappo

04-26-07, 09:41 AM

I've never been kicked to live when doing that with Navigator. I used to have that problem with passport long ago.

Before this last update when a show ended and say you had two different things recording at the time you were done you would end up on the DVR playback channel (it shows up as CH. 2000 but isn't in the guide) with a note saying if you want to change channels you had to cancel a recording (you could also just go to one of the channels you were recording on but it didn't tell you that option). In the new update it just takes you to a channel that is recording at that time (if you have two going otherwise it is whatever channel you were previously watching).

Now we just need to convince you to buy an eSATA drive and try hooking it up :)

xnappo

pkscout

04-26-07, 11:09 AM

http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/products/cable/mdn/enhancements.html

Yup. That confirms it. TWC has just caught up with 1999. I'm sure by 2020 Navigator will be feature comparable to what I have today.

Dorny423

04-26-07, 11:11 AM

Now we just need to convince you to buy an eSATA drive and try hooking it up :)

xnappo

I thought about it at one point when we still had passport. I really have no need for it but it would be nice to have, lol.

I thought I read somewhere (in these forums) that it didn't work with navigator.

I will let someone else try it out first though.

xnappo

04-26-07, 11:54 AM

I thought about it at one point when we still had passport. I really have no need for it but it would be nice to have, lol.

I thought I read somewhere (in these forums) that it didn't work with navigator.

I will let someone else try it out first though.

There has been one report of success and one of failure, but neither person seems to be reading the forums anymore...

xnappo

Satch Man

04-26-07, 05:52 PM

Dorny423

04-26-07, 07:51 PM

I have a question,

When the transition is complete, SHOULD (I like that word "Should") all purchase pin, blocking pin, parental control pin numbers, and favorite channels carry over from Passport to Navigator? Have any of you had problems in this regard?

Jack

I don't think they do. I can't speak to the pin numbers as i don't use them but I had to reset my favorites. You can sort the guide to show your favorites in the guide first before the other channels. I tried it and it works but it wasn't really for me.

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 08:53 PM

Opinions, anyone, on this article that's likely to appear in tomorrow's Lincoln Journal Star? (I do have opinions myself, however I'm on the Cable Board, and I'm also more comfortable being a "lurker," so I'll sit back and listen to others. I do think Mr. Korbelik's article did a good job of summarizing the tenor of today's Cable Board meeting.)

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/04/26/news/local/doc463141728c0cd695081661.txt

Brad Smith

04-26-07, 08:59 PM

“At this point, we’re hearing from customers who are saying ‘Don’t go back (to the old guide). We like the changes. We like the new features,’” said Ann Shrewsbury, public affairs director of Time Warner’s Nebraska division.
Um. What? I know of nobody who likes the changes. Oh, and what new features?

This makes me sick.

davehancock

04-26-07, 09:08 PM

Buldog1975,

Though I am (fortunately) not a Navigator user, I have been VERY interested in what is going on there in Lincoln. The problem that needs to be driven home is that these problems ARE NOT occurring because Lincoln is an unwilling Beta site - the are occurring because TW has NO CONCEPT about how to manage and test software. The quality level of what your people are suffering from was not even at the Alpha level!

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 09:33 PM

I have a pdf of TWC's responses mentioned in the news article (see my previous post #765), and it's public information; however it's a 750 KB scanned graphics-based PDF, 14 pages, and only zips down to 710 KB, still larger than the 500 KB limit that this thread puts on attachments. Any ideas how one would get it uploaded for you-all to browse around? No objections to e-mailing one or two copies to someone who can post larger files, but I don't care to spend all night e-mailing to everyone who's interested.

(Oh, and don't hold your breath; the article is correct about the answers being pretty sparse. Response is full of words like "confidential" and "not a beta test" and "gathering information from other Divisions ... is not helpful or relevant.")

xnappo

04-26-07, 09:36 PM

Any ideas how one would get it uploaded for you-all to browse around?

If it is just text, you should be able to select it all and copy/paste it into a text file

[edit] nevermind, just actually read your post!

xnappo

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 09:46 PM

If it is just text, you should be able to select it all and copy/paste it into a text file.

xnappo

Tried that, but it's not text. I think it was a paper copy, scanned into a PDF. (And I'm sure that the text version exists somewhere at Time Warner Cable, probably on some corporate lawyer's PC, but I suspect that's not something that I can get my hands on.)

I can select each of the 14 pages and save as a graphics file, hopefully without too much degradation; may do that later this evening if there's not a nicer way, but I'm lazy and am hoping that someone knows how to get around the 500 KB limit.

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 10:53 PM

Overcame my laziness, converted to GIFs of each page. Attaching the 14 pages in five separate posts (not sure if they'll be consecutive or not); this one will be pages 1-3, followed by 4-6, then 7-9. 10-12. and 13-14. While doing this I found that besides the file size limit, there's also a 1024 x 768 pixel limit for GIFs, so I shrunk the pages; hope they're readable. (Did a spot check and they seemed OK to me.)

Generally, there were two sets of questions: The "First Set" of questions numbered 1-45 is distributed among pages one through 10, the "Second Set" repeats numbers 1-16. (The repeating causes a little bit of confusion on the readers part when answers to one question refer to another; if you don't see a connection try switching to the other set and see if that works.)

Wish me luck on the attachments, and please let me know if any of them don't work.

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 10:55 PM

Continuation of Post #771
Pages 4-6

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 10:57 PM

Continuation of Post #772
Pages 7-9

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 10:58 PM

Continuation of Post #773
Pages 10-12

Bulldog1975

04-26-07, 11:00 PM

Continuation of Post #774
Pages 13-14

davehancock

04-26-07, 11:04 PM

I've taken a quick look at the first page - the first response (citing the FCC imposed "integration ban") is totally misleading (typical TW PR dept. lie) and I am shocked that they would submit that in any sort of legal hearing (were they under any sort of oath? - sort of like Gonzales :D ). In any event, they have other options - specifically, the one that they will be deploying elsewhere - cable boxes using cable cards. In addition, I don't think that "Navigator" currently includes DCAS functionality (that is the technology required to meet the ban without using CableCards.

I'll take a closer look at the document tomorrow and will PM you some material on the "Integration Ban".

GOD, this TWC PR BULLSHIT has got to STOP!

Satch Man

04-27-07, 12:29 PM

Can anyone provide a URL to the latest TWC advisory board meeting if it is still available?

Thanks in advance!

Jack

Bulldog1975

04-27-07, 01:36 PM

Can anyone provide a URL to the latest TWC advisory board meeting if it is still available?

Thanks in advance!

Jack

Unfortunately, if you mean yesterday's meeting (the one which was mentioned in the news article), that meeting was unfortunately not taped for broadcast. Although the public hearing that the board held in March was taped and is online (as was mentioned in posts #651 & #652 which I know you've seen and commented on), our Cable Board meetings are normally not videotaped. Written minutes will be available after the Board approves them in a couple of weeks, but they're likely to be less informative than the newspaper article. (Video does indeed carry a lot more explanatory power than the written word, and written newspaper article give & take carries more than stodgy old minutes.)

pepar

04-27-07, 05:49 PM

I have a pdf of TWC's responses mentioned in the news article (see my previous post #765), and it's public information; however it's a 750 KB scanned graphics-based PDF, 14 pages, and only zips down to 710 KB, still larger than the 500 KB limit that this thread puts on attachments. Any ideas how one would get it uploaded for you-all to browse around? No objections to e-mailing one or two copies to someone who can post larger files, but I don't care to spend all night e-mailing to everyone who's interested.
It's now available for download here (http://www.peparsplace.com/Time_Warner_Response.pdf).

Bulldog1975

04-28-07, 12:26 AM

There are several references to "Please refer to overview for status information on other locations"

I don't see that anywhere in the document. Is it a separate document or am I missing something?

"Overview" is at the top of page 1. I think specifically that most of the references you saw are referring to the last sentence of the 3rd paragraph, i.e. that it's "not helpful or relevant" for TWC Lincoln to talk to other divisions about their versions of Navigator.

Satch Man

04-28-07, 01:16 AM

Quote from TWC Reponse " The primary difference is that Navigator, unlike Passport, is compatible with features that customers in other Time Warner locations have soundly endorsed like caller ID on TV, Start Over, Quick Clips and person interactive TV"

Well I have Navigator and I don't have ANY of those features. So what IPG are those TWC customers using if it is not Passport? Does Lincoln have any of those features on Navigator as we don't here in KC. Might be because all this stink in Lincoln has halted Navigator deployment here in KC.

I really think TWC unleashed an unfinished product on its paying customers. If their employees Alpha/Beta tested this crap, I can't even image what kind of junk they tested, since we paying customers got the READY for RELEASE software.

They are patting themselves on the back for rushing to fix and enhance Navigator. Well we still don't have all the features we lost, back yet. So what are they celebrating about?

And I really don't believe there is 1 customer begging Ann to keep Navigator. That is a flat out lie.

I agree!

And I don't have Navigator yet! (Lucky Me! hehehe)

I can't speak for other divisions, but you have to question TWC of Lincoln Nebraska for what appears to be celebrating for fixing bugs that should have been fixed in the labs before the roll out? This doesn't make sense.

In the Milwaukee area, I have had TWC for over 15 years and our office has been very kind and helpful. I have had maybe 4-5 service calls during that time. We still have Passport on the Pioneer boxes AFAIK. It could be that office management knowledge varies from state to state and location to location. Do other Nebraska divisions also have Time Warner and what has the PR been like in those divisions? Maybe this woman just isn't very knowledgeable at what she does, or she's just quoting PR releases from form letters or brochures at their office.

Jack

davehancock

04-28-07, 10:44 AM

Satch Man

04-28-07, 10:49 AM

It's almost in reading the latest information,

That Time Warner of Lincoln Nebraska refuses to even acknowledge the obvious negatives associated with Navigator. When a question was asked by the Review Board, that reflected Navigator in a negative light, their response was either along the lines of:

1.) "Due to confidentiality, we can't release that information."

2.) "It just takes a while to get used to the new system."

3.) "We really like it! Just be patient and you will as well."

That's a great point above, the 3-4 areas that got this DOWNGRADE (let's call it what it really is) first, don't want this to spread to other Time Warner divisions because they KNOW Navigator has problems, and to spread this to other regional offices and mass market this product that appears to have so many bugs, would create damage control that would be very very difficult to fix.

Lincoln Nebraska got the worst of it by far. Now Ann and her staff have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar and they have to make excuses to justify a product that was CLEARLY not ready for prime time. My guess is that TWC may even have to hire secondary outside help to come in and improve the system. Because if the techs didn't know what they were doing the first time, how the hell are they going to fix something that they may not even know how to fix?

Time Warner having some test lab in Colorado is a new one on me! I got a friend in Colorado and he lives in Denver and has relatives in Colorado Springs and they have Comcast down there, so maybe the two rival companies are sharing the same lab space or working in shifts! hahahaha!

Jack

archiguy

04-28-07, 01:13 PM

Lincoln Nebraska got the worst of it by far. Now Ann and her staff have been caught with their hands in the cookie jar and they have to make excuses to justify a product that was CLEARLY not ready for prime time. My guess is that TWC may even have to hire secondary outside help to come in and improve the system. Because if the techs didn't know what they were doing the first time, how the hell are they going to fix something that they may not even know how to fix?

Hey, I got just the "secondary help" they need - Aptiv! (The guys who wrote the works-just-fine Passport software.) Why on earth doesn't TWC just hire these guys to write the Navigator platform for them? They do at least have the virtue of knowing what the hell they're doing. :rolleyes:

It's this stupid corporate mindset that can't admit it made a mistake, ever, and has never heard of the axiom: "Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." They'll just keep doggedly pursing their in-house dream of software development and keep losing money and customers because of it. Amazing.

pepar

04-29-07, 09:48 AM

Hey, I got just the "secondary help" they need - Aptiv! (The guys who wrote the works-just-fine Passport software.) Why on earth doesn't TWC just hire these guys to write the Navigator platform for them? They do at least have the virtue of knowing what the hell they're doing. :rolleyes:

It's this stupid corporate mindset that can't admit it made a mistake, ever, and has never heard of the axiom: "Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it." They'll just keep doggedly pursing their in-house dream of software development and keep losing money and customers because of it. Amazing.
I suggest Bangalore. :)

Riverside_Guy

04-29-07, 12:34 PM

Thanks Pepar for the pdf (hmmm, did you just gather the gifs into a pdf... seems quite hard to read). BTW, there are MANY file sharing hosts out there where one may distribute a large file to 10s, 100s, or 1000s of folks (we're not talking about underground p2p, this is above ground stuff).

I've used savefile.com, there are many others.

DJshay

04-30-07, 04:32 PM

Now we just need to convince you to buy an eSATA drive and try hooking it up :)

xnappo

What exactly is an eSATA drive and does it hook up (with ease) to the Passport SA8300 HD so that you can transfer files from your DVR to this external drive? I'm curious because at this point, I'm recording a lot more than I can watch, and recording in HD significantly reduces the amount of space on the hard drive.

pepar

04-30-07, 04:36 PM

What exactly is an eSATA drive and does it hook up (with ease) to the Passport SA8300 HD so that you can transfer files from your DVR to this external drive? I'm curious because at this point, I'm recording a lot more than I can watch, and recording in HD significantly reduces the amount of space on the hard drive.
There is no "transferring" files from DVR to the external drive. When properly installed, the 8300HD will record content to it and the internal drive based on its "rules."

DJshay

04-30-07, 06:06 PM

I looked at your diagrams on hooking it up, but it looks rather complicated. How do you get SATA support on the DVR and how do you get to the screen that you show in the picture?

pepar

04-30-07, 07:17 PM

I looked at your diagrams on hooking it up, but it looks rather complicated. How do you get SATA support on the DVR and how do you get to the screen that you show in the picture?
My procedure was done on Passport software. You're posting on a TWC Navigator thread - what software do you have, what version is it and who is your cable provider?

Better yet, post your question on the 8300HD and External SATA - It Works!! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10430386&&#post10430386) thread. They will want to know the answers to the above questions as well.

DJshay

05-01-07, 10:02 AM

Thanks :-) I'll check the thread out.

DJshay

05-01-07, 10:59 AM

pepar

05-01-07, 11:23 AM

Be careful what you wish for, DJshay. :)

DJshay

05-01-07, 12:10 PM

Riverside_Guy

05-01-07, 12:15 PM

Pretty sure I also read one location where TWC was foisting their pre-alpha software on had it put on non DVR boxes, but NOT on DVRs. They continued using Passport on the DVR STBs.

pepar

05-01-07, 01:40 PM

I'd like to test on my box that I don't use that much because whether we like it or not, the change is comin, and I'd like to know my around it before I start using it on my "main box". I look at it as an adventure!!
Gosh, you sure are an optimist. :) Getting Navigator now, from what I've been reading, will get you software that has not been properly tested. Getting a later version makes it much more likely that it will be less buggy.

DJshay

05-01-07, 02:11 PM

Looks like it's not to be. This is the reply I got from TWC:

Thank you for writing. We apologize for any confusion, but the link you provided is currently inactive in anticipation for the launch of the new Navigator product. Currently there is no time table for when the new Navigator software will launch. Once again we apologize for any inconvenience. Please let us know if you have any further questions and we will be happy to assist you. Have a great day.
The person on the other thread did not mention any problems with Navigator, but he hasn't been on the boards in months.

Satch Man

05-01-07, 03:03 PM

Has TWC started changing the Pioneer boxes to Navigator yet? I am in Milwaukee, WI. One of the test markets. The good news (if one can call it that) would be that whenever the roll out occurs, we should be getting an updated version that is less buggy.

So how many states on TWC currently have rolled out Navigator? So far AFAIK, it is areas of Nebraska, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Ohio. Please update or correct if this information is wrong. Thanks.

Jack

MikeAlletto

05-01-07, 04:55 PM

Does anyone find it extremely disturbing that a city can put pressure on a cable company about the cable box and software that runs on it? Whatever happened to let the customer vote with their wallet? As far as I can tell satellite (or over the air basic tv) is still an option for just about everyone in this country if they don't like the service from their cable provider. I would think that a stronger message to TW would be a HUGE number of cancellations in a single small area instead of some small gov't cable board trying to ask them questions that they obviously refuse to answer.

I understand the difficulties these people are having with their cable boxes but there are other options out there.

It just bothers me that the local gov't doesn't have anything better to do.

pkscout

05-01-07, 04:58 PM

Does anyone find it extremely disturbing that a city can put pressure on a cable company about the cable box and software that runs on it? Whatever happened to let the customer vote with their wallet?

When there is actual competition that can happen, but for many people the local cable monopoly is the only choice (apartments, houses with no clear south view, etc). And Verizon and AT&T aren't competing in many areas yet. Until then the city has a responsibility under the franchise agreement to monitor the performance of the cable company.

pepar

05-01-07, 05:14 PM

archiguy

05-01-07, 05:17 PM

While looking through that thread, I did run across one posting of a user in the Charlotte, NC area that did have the Navigator software pushed to his/her SA8300 HD and even included a link to the web page where the change was noted, although you can't get there from the main page. http://www.timewarnercable.com/charlotte/products/cable/navigator/ . I was told just a couple of months ago by the TWC tech team that there were no plans for Navigator to be implemented here at this time. Well obviously they "mislead" me. I have 3 boxes in my house and 2 are 8300 HDs. I requested that one of the boxes be given the software so I could see for myself what all the fuss was about. I'll let you know what happens :-)

They won't push Navigator onto just one box unless they court you as a beta tester. But I'd appreciate it if you didn't even broach the subject. I don't want to see Navigator here for a long, long time. At least until they de-bug it. Passport works just fine; let's try to keep it that way.

And the poster you're referring to in the local Charlotte forum apparently had Navigator pushed onto his SA3250 STB, not the SA8300 DVR. Since he's the only one to report such a thing, I tend to think he was mistaken. We can only hope. :rolleyes:

MikeAlletto

05-01-07, 05:18 PM

If you lived in an area that got Navigatored and your local government was grilling TWC about it, you might have a different outlook.

"Navigatored" haha

I probably wouldn't though, I would just call up TW and tell them to swap me back, then they'd say I can't so then I'd say cancel my service, I'll be dropping the box off in the morning. I have no problems ditching them if their service drops.

But I thank all the poor Navigatored folks out there for being the guinea pigs for the rest of the TW customers.

I would think that having half or more than half of their entire customer base canceling the service in a single area would be a HUGE kick in the ass that TW needs to get this stuff sorted out.

pepar

05-01-07, 07:37 PM

They won't push Navigator onto just one box unless they court you as a beta tester.
Or as a court beta jester.

Satch Man

05-01-07, 07:39 PM

Pioneer boxes don't have enough flash memory for Navigator to function. 4meg of flash memory is not enough. They only seem to be putting Navigator on SA boxes at this time.

Cool!

So does that mean that as long as you have a Pioneer box you won't get "Navigated?!!" LOL!

Jack

PS. What about the Pace boxes? How much memory do they have? I heard that some people got Navigator on their Pace boxes?

pepar

05-01-07, 07:40 PM

I would think that having half or more than half of their entire customer base canceling the service in a single area would be a HUGE kick in the ass that TW needs to get this stuff sorted out.
Of course it would, but you, I and they know it'll never happen. And as kcmotwcuser notes above, there are financial disincentives for doing so. By the short-hairs, I'd say.

davehancock

05-01-07, 07:42 PM

Most of us are in Price Lock contracts with TWC. So they will charge us a 250.00 breakage fee if we disconnect.I have not heard of TW having any sort of long term contracts where they charge you for a disconnect. That's one of their (TW's) advertising points around here. So I ask: are you SURE that they will hit you with some sort of early-termination fee?

pepar

05-01-07, 10:49 PM

I have not heard of TW having any sort of long term contracts where they charge you for a disconnect. That's one of their (TW's) advertising points around here. So I ask: are you SURE that they will hit you with some sort of early-termination fee?
Check the "disclaimer" at the bottom of this page (http://www.timewarnercable.com/kansascity/products/allnone.html).

davehancock

05-01-07, 10:58 PM

Check the "disclaimer" at the bottom of this page (http://www.timewarnercable.com/kansascity/products/allnone.html).Hmmmmmm.....Interesting. I wonder if there is something in state law (NY) or local franchising terms that prohibit that around here? I know that here all the dish outfits and the local phone company are doing that sort of thing - but cable is not (and they DO make a big deal about it in their advertisements).

I guess that I should count my blessings (SARA, TW with no disconnect pennelties, and no Navigator in sight!). ;)

pepar

05-01-07, 11:13 PM

Hmmmmmm.....Interesting. I wonder if there is something in state law (NY) or local franchising terms that prohibit that around here? I know that here all the dish outfits and the local phone company are doing that sort of thing - but cable is not (and they DO make a big deal about it in their advertisements).

I guess that I should count my blessings (SARA, TW with no disconnect pennelties, and no Navigator in sight!). ;)
Perhaps they "get away with" this kind of crap in KC, but not in NY? Dunno, but I'd bet they only compete as hard as they have to in any given market. I'd be insulted if I were in KC.

Satch Man

05-02-07, 10:44 AM

Am I correct to assume that there is no time-line for the Passport to Navigator changeover as this is an experimental product? For older boxes TWC has several options:

1.) Forcing a box-swap by a tech coming out after Navigator's bugs are out of the system. (Years ago, they did that when we had an analog box and when they upgraded our neighborhood to digital, they gave us a digital box.)

2.) Finding a way to force Navigator to run on the older boxes as more updates are released. Here's food for thought: If TWC can't even get these boxes to run properly on the DVR units, which have the most memory and the most advanced technology, good luck trying to get Navigator to run on lesser memory boxes!

3.) Push Navigator on unready boxes just because TWC loves it so much and watch the older units have the same problems talked about in places like Lincoln Nebraska.

4.) Stop the production of Pioneer boxes/other older boxes, but grandfather clause the communities and customers who have them, where they will not be forced to update to Navigator until problems with the older boxes force a box swap. Since there are so many of the older boxes out there that are working just fine with Passport, and considering that Navigator IS NOT READY even with the added memory converters, I predict that this is the option that TWC will pursue.

Jack

Dufusyte

05-02-07, 11:26 AM

Am I correct to assume that there is no time-line for the Passport to Navigator changeover
Navigator enables TWC to use Switched Video, which uses less bandwidth and will allow TWC to offer more HD channels in their lineup. So, the more customers pressure TWC to add more HD channels, the more TWC pushes up the rollout of Navigator.

There is no fixed deadline, but TWC will want to deploy it as soon as they can, so they can add more HD channels to please the customers (assuming the customers do not mind the Navigator bugs).

pepar

05-02-07, 11:29 AM

4.) Stop the production of Pioneer boxes/other older boxes, but grandfather clause the communities and customers who have them, where they will not be forced to update to Navigator until problems with the older boxes force a box swap. Since there are so many of the older boxes out there that are working just fine with Passport, and considering that Navigator IS NOT READY even with the added memory converters, I predict that this is the option that TWC will pursue.[/B]
I'm sure you're serious, Jack, but :rolleyes:.

michaeltscott

05-02-07, 11:40 AM

Navigator enables TWC to use Switched Video, which uses less bandwidth and will allow TWC to offer more HD channels in their lineup. So, the more customers pressure TWC to add more HD channels, the more TWC pushes up the rollout of Navigator.

There is no fixed deadline, but TWC will want to deploy it as soon as they can, so they can add more HD channels to please the customers (assuming the customers do not mind the Navigator bugs).There is nothing magical about these SDV protocols and they could just as easily have SDV added to Passport. That's not any part of their desire for Navigator.

davehancock

05-02-07, 11:44 AM

I'm sure you're serious, Jack, but :rolleyes:.Just what do you mean here Jeff?

I think that Jack is a little off in that the Pioneer and older boxes went out of production long ago. However, the cable companies are recycling them to a degree.

I really do expect something along the lines of Jack's #4 to be how this ultimately gets handled.

On a side note (not related at all to your post Jeff - but really related to Jack's): For years software folks have relied on ever-larger memories and faster processors to allow them to generate less efficient code (witness Vista). While this may be acceptable in the computer industry, you really can't apply that philosophy to legacy cable boxes. :eek:

pepar

05-02-07, 11:56 AM

Just what do you mean here Jeff?

I really do expect something along the lines of Jack's #4 to be how this ultimately gets handled.
Well, of course, that would be the best possible scenario, but it would involve TWC putting aside its agenda for the good of (a few?) customers. I think, based on their MO so far, that if these legacy boxes - the ones that can't run switched digital video - prevent TWC from fully implementing SDV, they will sooner or later require that they be swapped. Sooner is my bet. I hope you and Jack are right and I'm wrong.

Satch Man

05-02-07, 02:01 PM

I think that Jack is a little off in that the Pioneer and older boxes went out of production long ago. However, the cable companies are recycling them to a degree.

Oh I don't think they are out of production by a long shot,

I just think that TWC will want to stop putting them in box swap rotations if they can't get Navigator to run on them properly.

So I suppose the tip for everyone if it's possible, if your box is acting funny with Navigator, or you just want to delay Navigator's roll out for a longer period of time, see if your local TWC office still distributes Pioneer boxes and try to go back to a Pioneer box.

This is of course ASSUMING that the above post is correct in that TWC has NOT begun pushing Navigator to the Pioneer boxes in each TWC division yet.

When I called six months ago, my local office said that the DVR boxes were being upgraded first, than the SA boxes. I didn't ask about the Pace boxes, but they said that Pioneer boxes were last. At the time, I did not know about this forum or Navigator's problems, so I think I have been blessed with a Pioneer box!

I'd like another Milwaukee Wisconsinite to post here, than the two of us could share with the rest of you how other TWC divisions are dealing with all of this, who's going to get the changeover next, and how things are going.

I don't intend to go to digital phone, Road-Runner, or caller ID so all this stuff that they are promoting with Navigator:

Caller ID on TV
Interactive Polling
Games

It's just window dressing to me. Everything that I have read or head about Navigator says that it's so inferior to Passport and that there is absolutely nothing new or improved. If TWC wanted those other things, they should have just kept Navigator test marketed till those other things were ready. (AFAIK, you can't even DO those other things with Navigator yet.) Than test it for six months to a year, than if it works, roll it out.

Jack

PS Correction: Actually, the Caller ID on TV option is offered in my area with a Navigator box.

pkscout

05-02-07, 02:25 PM

There is nothing magical about these SDV protocols and they could just as easily have SDV added to Passport. That's not any part of their desire for Navigator.

True, although they are using it as marketing spin. TWC didn't want to pay the Passport folks to add the support for SDV. So TWC now says they need to move to Navigator because Passport doesn't support SDV. How convenient. Of course TWC is spending more to develop Navigator than they would have to get Passport updated, but let's not let good business sense get in the way of the determination to in-source everything. ;)

davehancock

05-02-07, 02:52 PM

Oh I don't think they are out of production by a long shot, Really? I'm pretty sure that Pioneer got out of the STB business when they sold it to Aptiv.

The Pioneer Electronics site no longer lists any cable boxes.

Previous articles on Pioneer cable boxes lists pioneerbroadband.com as their web site - that site is now a link for porno sites ( :rolleyes: )

Aptiv site has nothing about hardware.

Google searches on Pioneer cable boxes only yield an announcement of an HD box in 2002 - nothing relevant since then.

But - if you have some links that establish that they are still building cable boxes I'd love to see them.

Satch Man

05-02-07, 02:57 PM

Really? I'm pretty sure that Pioneer got out of the STB business when they sold it to Aptiv.

The Pioneer Electronics site no longer lists any cable boxes.

Previous articles on Pioneer cable boxes lists pioneerbroadband.com as their web site - that site is now a link for porno sites ( :rolleyes: )

Aptiv site has nothing about hardware.

Google searches on Pioneer cable boxes only yield an announcement of an HD box in 2002 - nothing relevant since then.

But - if you have some links that establish that they are still building cable boxes I'd love to see them.

Thanks Dave,

I am wrong than. This is going to be very interesting to see how this plays out. I got my box around 2002 so that must have been close to the end.

Jack

davehancock

05-02-07, 03:01 PM

True, although they are using it as marketing spin. TWC didn't want to pay the Passport folks to add the support for SDV. So TWC now says they need to move to Navigator because Passport doesn't support SDV. How convenient. Of course TWC is spending more to develop Navigator than they would have to get Passport updated, but let's not let good business sense get in the way of the determination to in-source everything. ;)There well could be some other reasons too (I'm just surmising here):
1) Aptiv wanted a high "licensing" fee to continue to use Passport.
2) TWC had acquired TiVo licenses that allowed them to bypass Aptiv
3) TWC has not had the greatest experience getting outside firms (Pioneer, Aptiv, SA) to respond to "bug fixes", feature additions, etc. and had decided that they would be better off bringing that stuff "in-house" (so far, that is VERY wrong).
4) TWC became concerned about Aptiv's future ability to stay in busines.
5) Some "hot-shot" convinced TW management that they could do this better.

Just some "other" thoughts......... :rolleyes:

BUT, that does not get around the clear fact that they hav screwed this up BIG TIME!!

davehancock

05-02-07, 03:02 PM

Thanks Dave,

I am wrong than. This is going to be very interesting to see how this plays out. I got my box around 2002 so that must have been close to the end.

JackThanks,

I think you are right on the rest of the stuff. ;)

Satch Man

05-02-07, 04:04 PM

rdgcss

05-02-07, 07:13 PM

Really? I'm pretty sure that Pioneer got out of the STB business when they sold it to Aptiv.
It really doesn't matter if Pioneer is out of the business. Come July 2007 the cable companies have to start buying newer design boxes that have "seperate encrytion", ie CableCards. They can't buy (some people say deploy) the older boxes we have now, even the SA8300HD

davehancock

05-02-07, 07:21 PM

It really doesn't matter if Pioneer is out of the business. Come July 2007 the cable companies have to start buying newer design boxes that have "seperate encrytion", ie CableCards. They can't buy (some people say deploy) the older boxes we have now, even the SA8300HDYes, but IF their software supports DCAS (and Navigator MIGHT), then they can keep supplying the 8300HD instead of the 8300HDC (CableCard version).

michaeltscott

05-02-07, 09:04 PM

The way I hear it, DCAS is going to require a new chip, so they can't just put some new firmware on an existing STB and make it work.

davehancock

05-02-07, 09:23 PM

The way I hear it, DCAS is going to require a new chip, so they can't just put some new firmware on an existing STB and make it work.Now that you mention it: I think you're right on that. Kind of blows TW NE's argument that they were forcing Navigator on their customers because the FCC required it totally out of the water!

le_vampyre

05-03-07, 03:05 PM

There well could be some other reasons too (I'm just surmising here):
1) Aptiv wanted a high "licensing" fee to continue to use Passport.
2) TWC had acquired TiVo licenses that allowed them to bypass Aptiv
3) TWC has not had the greatest experience getting outside firms (Pioneer, Aptiv, SA) to respond to "bug fixes", feature additions, etc. and had decided that they would be better off bringing that stuff "in-house" (so far, that is VERY wrong).
4) TWC became concerned about Aptiv's future ability to stay in busines.
5) Some "hot-shot" convinced TW management that they could do this better.

Just some "other" thoughts......... :rolleyes:

BUT, that does not get around the clear fact that they have screwed this up BIG TIME!!

You're very close on # 5) there. It was mentioned on this or another forum by a former TWC insider that it was some suits up at the corporate ivory towers who were behind this move to start their own software division to develop a new guide application. Now they will rather force it upon their customers rather than admit they were wrong. Question of ego. It's better to tell customers Passport doesn't support this and that so they will want the Navigator.

Fortunately, I will not be "Navigatored". My area was sold off or transfered by TWC to Comcast who so far claim they have no plans to swap the Passport guide out so I'm saved. And I am told they will be getting support for SDV , M-Card and OCAP soon (latest by Mid-June since apparently there some FCC deadline starting July) on Passport as well.

As kcmotuser said above - they could have simply bought out Aptiv and renamed Passport "Navigator" and added the features and applications. Aptiv was bought by Gemstar-TV-Guide for $16M - a lot cheaper than what it has cost TWC so far to re-write Navigator 15 times and still come up with a product as inferior as Navigator and force it upon their customers then saying "It's a free market".

By the time they are done forcing it upon all Passport and SARA sites - I'm sure even the Passport users in South America and the Caribbean will have a much better guide than Navigator.

rdgcss

05-03-07, 08:19 PM

The way I hear it, DCAS is going to require a new chip, so they can't just put some new firmware on an existing STB and make it work.

I write software for a living (37 years), however it's business related and I know very little about "appliance software" such as in a DVR. But from what I understand encryption/decrytion takes a lot of "horsepower" (fast CPU). I doubt if the current boxes would be up to the task. A separate chip to handle this task would be logical.

RussB

05-03-07, 08:29 PM

Well the law allows them to keep placing older boxes in customers home. They just can't buy any more Non-Separable Security boxes. So all the old boxes can still be used if they have ever been installed on at a customers home. So these older boxes will be around for a long time.

I would venture to say they will use these older "legacy" boxes in the homes of customer who don't have digital ready TVs when TWC goes all digital. Since there a millions of Analog TVs out there and still being manufactured today, that will need some kind of convertor to get what is now the analog 2-78 that TWC now sells here in KC as Expanded Basic service. So this old equipment will become channel changers, like the old analog convertors did as they phased in digital service. Remember boys, the cable companies played a big part in writting the laws they are now blaming for the changes that caused them to develop OCAP and the Navigator mess. So they are not going to do anything that junks millions of bucks of hardware.It became illegal to import or manufacture analog-only TVs and VCRs of any screen size on March 1 of this year, but retailers are still allowed to sell off their existing inventories. Today, the FCC published its unanimously-approved order requiring retailers to put warning labels on TV sets containing only analog tuners. Click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10455412&&#post10455412) to go to a post that further explains this.

davehancock

05-03-07, 08:32 PM

The way I hear it, DCAS is going to require a new chip, so they can't just put some new firmware on an existing STB and make it work.I've been digging into this some more and what I have found (Wikipedia aside) has NOT indicated that DCAS REQUIRES a specialized chip. However, Broadcom has announced a multi-function chip (BCM7118 (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=946719) ) that is essentially a STB on a chip and "supports requirements for emerging Polycipher Downloadable Conditional Access Security (DCAS)". Ultimately a specialized chip, such as this, may be the BEST way to implement DCAS, but it does not seem to be a "requirement". (Of course, sufficient processing power, as pointed out by rdgs, is an issue).

Riverside_Guy

05-04-07, 09:36 AM

Perhaps they "get away with" this kind of crap in KC, but not in NY? Dunno, but I'd bet they only compete as hard as they have to in any given market. I'd be insulted if I were in KC.

Oh they get away with TONS of stuff in NYC. The latest indignity is that our hockey team, in the middle of the second round of the Stanley Cup PLAYOFFS is being seen by their home town fans in SD, while most areas outside their home market (who get VS HD) get it in HD. Oh, 2 weeks before TWC announced they had signed a carriage agreement with VS to carry their HD feed nationally... so there's no question of rights or of TWC paying for the right, nor NYC customers paying their percentage of the price.

I could go on and on, but you get the picture.

DJshay

05-04-07, 03:51 PM

They won't push Navigator onto just one box unless they court you as a beta tester. But I'd appreciate it if you didn't even broach the subject. I don't want to see Navigator here for a long, long time. At least until they de-bug it. Passport works just fine; let's try to keep it that way.

And the poster you're referring to in the local Charlotte forum apparently had Navigator pushed onto his SA3250 STB, not the SA8300 DVR. Since he's the only one to report such a thing, I tend to think he was mistaken. We can only hope.

Well you got your wish. They won't push to just one box and apparently don't have a date for deploying it in our area. And I did broach the subject with them, but do you seriously think that a request to the customer service line will somehow prompt them to push it to all TWC customers?

danki6x

05-04-07, 04:30 PM

Oh they get away with TONS of stuff in NYC. The latest indignity is that our hockey team, in the middle of the second round of the Stanley Cup PLAYOFFS is being seen by their home town fans in SD, while most areas outside their home market (who get VS HD) get it in HD.
Diddo for our home town team (Anaheim). And our Versus SD had jagged sticks and an invisible puck. I complained couple weeks back and the last couple games did not have the jagged sticks, but still one of the poorer SD channels.
/Dan

HBKat

05-05-07, 03:11 PM

Well you got your wish. They won't push to just one box and apparently don't have a date for deploying it in our area. And I did broach the subject with them, but do you seriously think that a request to the customer service line will somehow prompt them to push it to all TWC customers?

Yes, I do believe that the marketing people will spin the numbers in whatever way will make them look better. I can hear it now, "Look, there have been 400 calls this month from people interested in the new Navigator guide. That's more people than who called about the free Showtime weekend. Let's give everyone the Navigator, they must really want it."

Needless to say, I am implying that the management types only look at the raw number of calls, not the content of the calls, or they would realize that the "interest" in Navigator is just morbid curiosity and not actual desire to invite it into their living room. I am making that assumption based on what TWC has said in the press, where it is clear that they are either lying, or they aren't listening to their customers. Or both.

Dorny423

05-05-07, 05:37 PM

What is the version of Navigator that is loaded in Lincoln. We have not gotten an update here in KC.

Are all the enhancements working in Lincoln?

Still the same as in my previous posts from a week or two ago.

2.3.32AC-ptv Apr 9 2007

Everything seems to work. I still say the auto skip back function is not very good. It only goes about half of the way back of the length it should (or like it did with Passport). So in a sense it works just not very well.

holl_ands

05-05-07, 07:39 PM

I've been digging into this some more and what I have found (Wikipedia aside) has NOT indicated that DCAS REQUIRES a specialized chip. However, Broadcom has announced a multi-function chip (BCM7118 (http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=946719) ) that is essentially a STB on a chip and "supports requirements for emerging Polycipher Downloadable Conditional Access Security (DCAS)". Ultimately a specialized chip, such as this, may be the BEST way to implement DCAS, but it does not seem to be a "requirement". (Of course, sufficient processing power, as pointed out by rdgs, is an issue).
The primary "requirement" is that "Hollywood", et. al. approve a particular
DCAS implementation approach for dissemination of their products.
[And not to forget who gets the royalty payments.....]

With the mandate for USER owned equipment, this means that any
"software only" solution would need to provide protection that isn't as
easy to break as AACS was recently found to be in HD-DVD/Blu-Ray
playback software running under Windows.....

For example, although the decryption is contained in the CableCARD/MCARD,
MS VISTA implementations still require "approved" processor chips
and a certification process....

If it were easy, DCAS should have already been widely deployed...
After all, most of us already have 128-bit encryption running on our PCs....

Despite all this, some (small) cable companies are already using
separable (SmartCARD) systems or have been approved to use the BBT DCAS
security system-- but only in their OWN cable boxes....
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=113640

These only obtained temporary approval by the FCC...cuz they aren't
compatible with industry/cable/Hollywood agreements for USER owned equipment....

Which apparently includes a CEA/NCTA "requirement" that cable systems
must employ the same software, et. al. as industry to ensure they
"share the pain" when things don't work right...

This will ALSO help to ensure that the cable systems don't discriminate
against USER owned equipment as new features are added to the
mutually downloaded software packages....

So the "requirements" are industry, rather than FCC imposed.....