Those features are out there. TWC Oceanic has seen those as I mentioned earlier. They got to see some more features just last year.

Yea,

I am aware that TWC-Oceanic (Hawaii) is a test market.

Jack

Yea,

I am aware that TWC-Oceanic (Hawaii) is a test market.

Jack

Since Greensboro in the past has been a Time Warner test market we may get the latest version of Navigator.We had Startover, SDV, Quick Clips,On screen polling and Time Warner video store before even Charlotte.. I will be anxious to see what version of Navigator we receive. PS TWC even tried to slip the the fiasco time limit on ROADRUNNER but public outcry scared that FIRST out of town. WOODY

Since Greensboro in the past has been a Time Warner test market we may get the latest version of Navigator.

You'll get the latest version of MDN Navigator in the field anyway. But the question is, will it be the general public latest version or a test market latest version, later scheduled for wide release? There's +'s and -'s to both sides:

The +'s of a test market version:

You'll get the latest version coming down the pike (hopefully) for the rest of us soon after.
Subs will be able to tell other subs and divisions about any new features.

The -'s of a test market version:

Too many people stuck with those old Pioneer boxes/old SA 2000 non-DVR's and SA-8000 DVR's that don't have the memory to run the guide well.

New can still mean some bugs, and how well will new MDN converted divisions respond to not only a new system, but bugs if there are new features that aren't widespread to other divisions?

The +'s of a mainstream market version:

A very stable MDN environment provided quality signal/ home wiring connections and a strong enough memory box are used. If you have met these main conditions, the boxes and guide work very well.

We can all help each other with MDN units across features and divisions because as far as appearance of the guide, we will all be on the same page. (or very close.)

The -'s of a mainstream market version:

Too many people stuck with those old Pioneer boxes/old SA 2000 non-DVR's and SA-8000 DVR's that don't have the memory to run the guide well.

-------------------------------------------

Whatever they go with for MDN Navigator, they are certainly testing the hell out of this thing. My guess. (only a guess) is that you will get the latest MAINSTREAM version of MDN Navigator with updates after the roll-out has concluded.

Jack

Here, TWC bought the bankrupt Adelphia system, which was a Moto network. They still don't have SDV and consequently don't have a bunch of HD channels added to the main TWC San Diego system in the past year. (They also have the Macrovision/Gemstar iGuide IPG--there were a few Moxi boxes, but from what I understand, TWC switched them to iGuide like the rest). Some are pissed that they're not getting the same channels though they pay the same fees, but what they don't realize is that there are cable systems all over the country--TWC and others--with multiple divisions, each with different channel lineups. TWC San Diego only has the two, and are under no obligation to have the same channel lineup in both. Other than the NFL Network, TWC hasn't taken any channels away from them and have added some (which they had for several months before we got them).

Comcast predominantly used Moto networks, so that's possibly the hold-up in getting SDV in those areas. They either have to switch to a Cisco network, or implement an SDV solution that will work with the Moto stuff.

I think that is the situation here. Some areas use Moto boxes and probably networks as well. But I think they are also running Navigator in those areas too. I remember someone commented on the Cleveland topic that they traded in a Moto box and got a SA box and they "didn't like the new guide" because it had some features that the iGuide did not. The hold up must be the behind the scenes work and the will have to swap out boxes for SA boxes with Navigator.

Honestly, I'm glad they leave certain areas behind. Enough of the entire system is SARA or Navigator, so all those areas have SDV and the new channels. It would be foolish to make everyone wait for such a small number. And I mean small. I never knew NE Ohio had ANY Comcast areas!

Maybe we are finally getting Navigator fully replacing Passport in the SoCal region (not San Diego). Got a multi page brochure couple days ago that said during the next couple months it was coming and the basics on using it. Now, we did get a letter in January that said next couple months and another letter 2 years ago that said it is coming soon. The local office has had it on their TV at least for a month since I saw it there when I asked when we would get it. They did say it was being sent out in small batches of houses. /Dan

Yea,

I am aware that TWC-Oceanic (Hawaii) is a test market.

Jack

What I find funny is that when the Triangle got "upgraded" to Navigator we actually lost some of the features you were wondering about.

Passport here had games, interactive polling on occasion, an interactive information channel for news, weather and local events and a customer service page where you could pay your bill.

Sure they were all as slow as one legged donkey, but they were there!

What is the latest MDN and ODN versions for SA8300HD and SA8300HDC, respectively?

Yes, works rather well most of the time. I have seen some glitches, though, were it will favor a lower priority show over a higher priority one. Changing priorities doesn't help once this happens... I have found that you need to delete the higher priority series and then re-add it to get it to function correctly.

Yep, I just noticed it. I didn't even notice it whenever it was added to the program options. My recording schedule must be too spread out to cause any conflicts so I've never really missed it since Passport went away.

What is the latest MDN and ODN versions for SA8300HD and SA8300HDC, respectively?

MDN 2.4.4_16 and ODN 3.1.1_3

Both of these versions should have the "new" colors on the guide. Instead of the electric blue colors, it should be dark blue with black and gold as well.

What I find funny is that when the Triangle got "upgraded" to Navigator we actually lost some of the features you were wondering about.

Passport here had games, interactive polling on occasion, an interactive information channel for news, weather and local events and a customer service page where you could pay your bill.

Sure they were all as slow as one legged donkey, but they were there!

YEah. This is one thing that royally pissed me off is when they got rid of all that. Particularly the games and the billpay channel. Billpay made it easy to keep up on when it needed to be paid and getting it paid in a quick amount of time (Just had to remember the last 5 of the cable account #, memorized. Then punch in your CC info and it's instant. Easier than messing with the IVR system on the phone or walking in or sending a check through the mail).

All these features are 'supposedly' coming, but I'm waiting till I get a solid date.

Though one feature I am awaiting is the remote record option. Just as long as they don't make it retarded and limited. Just login with your cable account info on twc's website and do a standard html web page. No flash, no java. I wanna be able to actually access it on my cellphone and not require a damn computer. Would be kinda counter-intuitive.

Which version will we be most likely to get in central ny would you say dawg ? I mean based on your experiences with navigator .:)

Maybe we are finally getting Navigator fully replacing Passport in the SoCal region (not San Diego). Got a multi page brochure couple days ago that said during the next couple months it was coming and the basics on using it. Now, we did get a letter in January that said next couple months and another letter 2 years ago that said it is coming soon. The local office has had it on their TV at least for a month since I saw it there when I asked when we would get it. They did say it was being sent out in small batches of houses. /Dan


I just moved to Northridge 2 weeks ago andd the TW install was with the Navigator...so maybe it's going to new installs first?

MDN 2.4.4_16 and ODN 3.1.1_3


anyone have pics of these navigator versions ? ....just curious what makes these two versions stand out!


is this a newest version or is it a little dated:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Sdxw-VoxA

Which version will we be most likely to get in central ny would you say dawg ? I mean based on your experiences with navigator .:)

They started us with MDN 2.4.4_15, but that was April 2008, before the new version was released anywhere. Also we were on some version of ODN 2.xxx, again that was before the new color versions were released in the fall.

I'd say NY will probably get the new versions immediately. I don't see why they would use old software, then have to update it again.

YEah. This is one thing that royally pissed me off is when they got rid of all that. Particularly the games and the billpay channel. Billpay made it easy to keep up on when it needed to be paid and getting it paid in a quick amount of time (Just had to remember the last 5 of the cable account #, memorized. Then punch in your CC info and it's instant. Easier than messing with the IVR system on the phone or walking in or sending a check through the mail).

All these features are 'supposedly' coming, but I'm waiting till I get a solid date.

Though one feature I am awaiting is the remote record option. Just as long as they don't make it retarded and limited. Just login with your cable account info on twc's website and do a standard html web page. No flash, no java. I wanna be able to actually access it on my cellphone and not require a damn computer. Would be kinda counter-intuitive.
As I understand it you will be able to program your TWC dvr thru your computer or with your cell phone. WOODY

That's what i was thinking to but you never know they might think we will just be happy with just a step below to kind of feed us upstate new yorkers a bone lol! everyone have a great night off to watch 3 hours of wrestling !

How is this "remote DVR recording" going to work? None of the TWC boxes have Ethernet connectors on them. Tivo boxes have phone line connection and Ethernet connection capabilities, D* receivers are also required to be plugged into a phone jack for PPV recording. So how will what is done online with TWC's DVR get to the DVR itself? :confused:

Easy. Just the way they get other data to and from it now: Over the cable line. TWC has that advantage that their boxes are already 2-way capable over the cable plant. They just need to add a backend system at HQ and a little piece of extra code in Navigator and voila.

You already get updates pushed to you automatically, you have Caller ID on TV... On the return side we have long had capable applications like the aforementioned billpay channel on Passport, the weather/news/movies channel....

How is this "remote DVR recording" going to work? None of the TWC boxes have Ethernet connectors on them. Tivo boxes have phone line connection and Ethernet connection capabilities, D* receivers are also required to be plugged into a phone jack for PPV recording. So how will what is done online with TWC's DVR get to the DVR itself? :confused:

The boxes have docsis modems in them and already communicate bidirectionally with the headend. All types of setup and control data already flows in and out of the box.

The boxes have docsis modems in them and already communicate bidirectionally with the headend. All types of setup and control data already flows in and out of the box.

Most people will never worry about this stuff such as how and why. If we get remote programming and it works thats all most folks care about. WOODY

Most people will never worry about this stuff such as how and why. If we get remote programming and it works thats all most folks care about. WOODY

Well... Nickdawg was worried, lol

You know the thing I wonder about is if anyone from Time Warner monitors this thread about Navigator. I feel it has become the number one site on the web for Navigator discussion. We all were yelling for Keyword Search and that seems to be on the way. They have to get feedback from somewhere. TIME WARNER if you are watching PLEASE GIVE US MANUAL RECORDING. Also look at Passports recording options for some more inspiration. PLEASE LISTEN TO US IF YOU ARE HERE TIME WARNER! WOODY

i have a 8300 HD box, TWC

when i press the "video source" button on the remote
i get a message that says " press bypass to adjust picture"
but there is no Bypass button. lol

whats that about ?

Whatever they go with for MDN Navigator, they are certainly testing the hell out of this thing. My guess. (only a guess) is that you will get the latest MAINSTREAM version of MDN Navigator with updates after the roll-out has concluded.

Jack

FWIW, we are any day now getting a major market rollout of MDN to replace what is probably several hundred thousand Passport boxes in the field... the experiences should be interesting. They say "in waves" so I'd expect it to by done by head end... and nobody has a clue what the priority is... except typically they start in SI, move to Brooklyn/Queens, then Bronx/Manhattan.

It also appears that one can ask for a ODN Samsung 3090 ands if they have units, you get it. Don't say anything and you get a ODN 8300HDC.

Passport here had games, interactive polling on occasion, an interactive information channel for news, weather and local events and a customer service page where you could pay your bill.

Sure they were all as slow as one legged donkey, but they were there!

We never got this stuff and never will as we are looking at an imminent MDN rollout.

Still, it's more evidence that even if you have the same box and software, you COULD have things other areas do not.

Easy. Just the way they get other data to and from it now: Over the cable line. TWC has that advantage that their boxes are already 2-way capable over the cable plant. They just need to add a backend system at HQ and a little piece of extra code in Navigator and voila.

You already get updates pushed to you automatically, you have Caller ID on TV... On the return side we have long had capable applications like the aforementioned billpay channel on Passport, the weather/news/movies channel....

That's exactly what I think. Still, I've read posts saying they have a DOCSIS modem in the STB, so they can communicate via IP with the box. If that is REALLY true, then I don't have to fret about running some CAT6 into where my STB sits (I'd need something on the order of 50'+ of CAT6 cable to get from my switch to my STB).

By waves do you mean all of ny or just like metro new york ? i to got the firmware upgrade and you seemed to think that central ny might get it or already have it on the boxes with the latest update ....do you think it will be real soon? at least that's the vibe i got from reading one of your previous post .I haven't received any correspondence from time warner like a flyer saying arriving in few weeks......navigator! Like i've said though i don't think our division will get the red flag treatment with navigator it will just be dropped on us without notice.

The boxes have docsis modems in them and already communicate bidirectionally with the headend. All types of setup and control data already flows in and out of the box.

AFAIK they can communicate without a DOCSIS modem.

This is the first I'm reading they have IP capability in their STBs... do we know this for sure?

By waves do you mean all of ny or just like metro new york ? i to got the firmware upgrade and you seemed to think that central ny might get it or already have it on the boxes with the latest update ....do you think it will be real soon? at least that's the vibe i got from reading one of your previous post .I haven't receive dany correspondence from time warner like a flyer saying arriving in few weeks......navigator! Like i've said though i don't think our division will get the red flag treatment with navigator it will just be dropped on us without notice.

Only a guess, but I think metro NYC. The "waves" bit came from a flyer sent with last month's bill.

is a firmware upgrade a positive thing would you say?

The "waves" bit came from a flyer sent with last month's bill.

IIRC the flyer i got also said "waves".
how it actually happened for me was that my non DVR boxes got hit first then a week or so later my DVR's got it. probably should be noted that at that time all of my boxes were MDN.
so "waves " could mean by box type, by version, by area or any mixture there of.

AFAIK they can communicate without a DOCSIS modem.

This is the first I'm reading they have IP capability in their STBs... do we know this for sure?

DOCSIS is part of OCAP standard, so any OCAP/tru2way/ODN box should have DOCSIS modem built-in:
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=audiovideo&type=digitalsettopbox&subtype=hdtvtuners&model_cd=SMT-H3090/TWC

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/product_data_sheet0900aecd806c6920.pdf
It was optional in 8300HD series:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/product_data_sheet0900aecd806c6913.pdf
Even if the STB is not DOCSIS enabled, there is still the DAVIC IP communication path between STB and headend available... otherwise the box would not be able to support PPV, VOD, SDV, etc.

Hell... even analog RF boxes in the early '80s had two-way RF communications available for impulse PPV (Which was a real nightmare in the days before fiber allowed segmented hubs to keep the return spectrum from becoming a real mess).

They started us with MDN 2.4.4_15, but that was April 2008, before the new version was released anywhere. Also we were on some version of ODN 2.xxx, again that was before the new color versions were released in the fall.

I'd say NY will probably get the new versions immediately. I don't see why they would use old software, then have to update it again.

Interesting that our "test" market (San Diego) still has MDN 2.4.4_14. I guess TWC San Diego feels upgrading to the _15 or _16 revisions isn't worth it.

IIRC the flyer i got also said "waves".
how it actually happened for me was that my non DVR boxes got hit first then a week or so later my DVR's got it. probably should be noted that at that time all of my boxes were MDN.
so "waves " could mean by box type, by version, by area or any mixture there of.

We have many head ends in NYC... there are 2 just in my borough. So I suspect it may also be by head end. For our big HD expansion, I got it about 3-4 months before southern Manhattan.

DOCSIS is part of OCAP standard, so any OCAP/tru2way/ODN box should have DOCSIS modem built-in:
http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=audiovideo&type=digitalsettopbox&subtype=hdtvtuners&model_cd=SMT-H3090/TWC

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/product_data_sheet0900aecd806c6920.pdf
It was optional in 8300HD series:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/product_data_sheet0900aecd806c6913.pdf
Even if the STB is not DOCSIS enabled, there is still the DAVIC IP communication path between STB and headend available... otherwise the box would not be able to support PPV, VOD, SDV, etc.

Hell... even analog RF boxes in the early '80s had two-way RF communications available for impulse PPV (Which was a real nightmare in the days before fiber allowed segmented hubs to keep the return spectrum from becoming a real mess).

Ah, thanks.

MDN isn't really OCAP, right?

Of course, one question would have to do with other services that may need an IP connection... can one make that from such a box? Or would one need to run cable from an already installed cable modem?

is a firmware upgrade a positive thing would you say?

I'd say positive,

This is because there would be no reason for them to update Passport or SARA IPG's with new firmware with Navigator just around the corner. Nor would it seem logical that they would just do a firmware update for no reason. I'm 95% sure this is due to Navigator coming.

Jack

Interesting that our "test" market (San Diego) still has MDN 2.4.4_14. I guess TWC San Diego feels upgrading to the _15 or _16 revisions isn't worth it.

Or they may be waiting for a newer version, as well as what happens when the remaining Passport/SARA systems of New York and the Carolina's get switched through the Navigator MDN download. There could be something like an MDN 2.5 or 3.0 in the works. Maybe this is what those divisions will get?

In that case, it would not make much sense to go to 2.4.4_15 or 2.4.4_16. TWC does not necessarily have to do every update sequentially.

Jack

Will there be another update soon to follow you think like in a week or two? this one containing the final touches for navigator .FINGERS CROSSED!!!

Will there be another update soon to follow you think like in a week or two? this one containing the final touches for navigator .FINGERS CROSSED!!!

Maybe 2 or 3 months not 2 or 3 weeks. they are finishing the Passport and starting the SARA areas before any new update I would guess.

Maybe 2 or 3 months not 2 or 3 weeks. they are finishing the Passport and starting the SARA areas before any new update I would guess.

Generally they go by community and box type. Where I live in Milwaukee Wisconsin, they worked on it specifically on Tuesday and Thursday nights I think I was. Than they would gage feedback the next day at the call centers. One download push equaled about 1500 boxes at a time. For our community, the non-DVR's were first. If I remember, it was something like

SA:4000 SD
SA 4000 HD
SA 3000 HD
SA 1000 SD

Than:

Pioneer 3000 HD
Pioneer 2000 SD
Pioneer 1000 SD

Than

SA 8000 SD
SA 8000 HD
SA 83000 SD
SA 8300 HD

This is mainly for illustration showing how the waves occurred. I am not sure on some of those Pioneer box numbers being right at it has been so long since I had a Pioneer box. This is what they mean by "waves." Someone from San Diego said they did the DVR's first. They are doing the HD boxes first in some divisions. In Milwaukee Wisconsin, they did the DVR's last because they said those are the hardest to convert.

Your areas might have a four days a week Navigator night instead of the two we have. They might do more than 1500 boxes per download too. They go by node ("community head end) and box type. They will also have usually one day off to gage feedback. On average, the conversion, from the time the first downloads go to those thousand or so boxes, it takes about 3-5 months to get a whole area done. Since New York is so huge, and is like 5 big cities in one, I would expect quite a time range from the first downloads. (Say July 1st) to the end of the project (Before December 31) done. They would probably have the BULK of areas done by the end of October.

My guess is that it will be Passport systems first and than SARA. This is because TWC is so used to taking Passport out and putting Navigator in its place. Or, they might still go node by node and box type by box type regardless of whether it is a Passport or SARA system that they are changing. Since they literally have to wipe out the software in the guide with an all-new download, maybe it won't matter what OS was on the guide in the first place. Hope this helps!

Jack

MDN isn't really OCAP, right?Correct. The "O" in "ODN" stands for "OCAP"--it's basically MDN rewritten in Java, the language of OCAP apps. MDN is written in C, predates ODN and is only run on the legacy boxes (model designation not ending in "C"). Being written in C should make MDN much smaller and generally faster than ODN, which not only requires memory for its code and data, but memory for the OCAP (a Java runtime environment and some middleware routines). There should ideally be plenty of memory left in which to dynamically load a selection of OCAP apps, whatever they might be. This is why the "C" models have twice the memory of the non-"C" models.

How is this "remote DVR recording" going to work? None of the TWC boxes have Ethernet connectors on them. Tivo boxes have phone line connection and Ethernet connection capabilities, D* receivers are also required to be plugged into a phone jack for PPV recording. So how will what is done online with TWC's DVR get to the DVR itself? :confused:
So you're sitting on the beach in (Maui?) and you realize your
budget condo doesn't get Showtime....what cha gonna do???
Whip out your browser enabled cell phone and navigate to
your DVR control webpage, navigate the menus and setup
a recording. Time to get another mai tai....

DVR gets info re remote record event setup via tru2way
interface to the cable headend....which presents the control
webpage to web browser enabled cellphones & PCs...

====================================
The big deal re the new "IP enabled" cable boxes isn't so much
the DOCSIS communications protocol (not a new feature), but
the fact that they will be capable of point-to-point comms the
same as IPTV systems, making it easier for content suppliers
to implement one (and hopefully only one) protocol for program
transfer AND COST ACCOUNTING. The BIGGER leap forward
is the ability to use MPEG4 (H.264) coding, which is at least
twice as efficient as current MPEG2. This will permit a lot more
programs to be simultaneously distributed from your neighborhood
node as IPTV replaces MPEG2 SDV.

And actually nickdawg I should point out that Dish and DidrecTV receivers don't even use the phone line connection for PPV except for only if you are purchasing through the remote and it only does the purchase step. The rest of it like the box authentication and remote DVR recording is all fed down the satellite IIRC. It might use the phone line for some things (like recording conflicts or reporting what is set to record and what is not. I dunno how they have it set up) but for the main functionality it only needs a downlink to the box and the satellite already does this for other things like firmware updates and whatnot.

Ah, thanks.

MDN isn't really OCAP, right?

Michael explained ODN ...

and MDN is built on what they salvaged from the "Mystro" project that they had in development since about 2000. Hence the name Mystro Digital Navigator. I forget what Mystro was supposed to be, I think it might have been a network DVR-type device. It's probably linked in this thread but I can't be bothered to find it right now.

ODN took what they eventually unleashed as MDN and rewrote it for the next generation.

Queens, ny should be getting mdn in about a month or so. It might take longer though.

I think central ny will be about that long too based on how long its been testing since april ...the typical time frame is very nearly on the horizon for navigator deployment!

I know Keyword search, longer programming discriptions and remote programming are on deck for Navigator updates. Has anyone who has any information from inside Time Warner heard anything about any plans for any type of manual recording option comeing up. This would be one of the features that would help complete Navigator for my use. I know other folk would like other features but manual recording is one that is sorely lacking in Navigator.

I know the csr last night told me the keyword search was one of the innovations seen by the central ny division he went into detail about it so much that i forgot most of what he said... but he did sound very reassuring . He had me feeling like a kid in a candy store! Want to know what's taking so long with the samsung's that are testing?

Queens, ny should be getting mdn in about a month or so. It might take longer though.

I don't know whether to be happy or not. Such conflicting emotions.

I know the csr last night told me the keyword search was one of the innovations seen by the central ny division he went into detail about it so much that i forgot most of what he said... but he did sound very reassuring . He had me feeling like a kid in a candy store! Want to know what's taking so long with the samsung's that are testing?

Cool about Keyword Search! At least we know it's coming!

Jack

i call the csr's here daily or every couple a days ....I know calling sometimes is worthless but at least it gets the word out about different functions that are out there and there are people inquiring about them ...never hurts you know!:rolleyes:

I know the csr last night told me the keyword search was one of the innovations seen by the central ny division he went into detail about it so much that i forgot most of what he said... but he did sound very reassuring . He had me feeling like a kid in a candy store! Want to know what's taking so long with the samsung's that are testing?

I think there are some issues. CNY might be deploying the 32xx boxes rather than the 30xx ones. I have a 3260 hd-stb and it's a nice box though it has it's minor issues. The 3270 hd-dvr has some issues as well. They want to make sure it's good enough for the customers.

i call the csr's here daily or every couple a days ....I know calling sometimes is worthless but at least it gets the word out about different functions that are out there and there are people inquiring about them ...never hurts you know!:rolleyes:

Oh I know! I am very certain based on what I am hearing that Keyword search will be out for both MDN/ODN units. (It sounds like MDN-New York will be getting this!) Someone should call their TWC offices, especially in NYC and ask how Keyword Search works! If calls are coming in that the CSR's are able to talk about new features over the phone, that is a great sign! Than post what you find out!

PS. Every time you call TWC about a Navigator problem, issue, feature request, or question, the CSR is supposed to note that information and pass it on to engineering for BOTH MDN/ODN boxes. They than gage responses over the months for future updates. The calls for features requested the most get first update priority. Best thing to do is make your requests in laymen's terms, using general public, direct language. (i.e I would like to see Keyword Search in Navigator, I am interested in Manual Recording options.) They take that stuff into consideration, especially in bulk number requests!

Jack

I for one would love to hear some details on how the NAVIGATOR Keyword search will work.

Oh I know! I am very certain based on what I am hearing that Keyword search will be out for both MDN/ODN units. (It sounds like MDN-New York will be getting this!) Someone should call their TWC offices, especially in NYC and ask how Keyword Search works! If calls are coming in that the CSR's are able to talk about new features over the phone, that is a great sign! Than post what you find out!

PS. Every time you call TWC about a Navigator problem, issue, feature request, or question, the CSR is supposed to note that information and pass it on to engineering for BOTH MDN/ODN boxes. They than gage responses over the months for future updates. The calls for features requested the most get first update priority. Best thing to do is make your requests in layman's terms, using general public, direct language. (i.e I would like to see Keyword Search in Navigator, I am interested in Manual Recording options.) They take that stuff into consideration, especially in bulk number requests!

Jack

In fact,

If you call or E-Mail TWC about a Navigator Program Guide feature that you would like to see added, just to make sure that the engineering department gets the information, ask the CSR or message recipient to forward the information to the engineering department. This is just to make sure that your concerns are heard. Keeping your requests simple, I have found makes a positive difference. Another thing that works is you will get better feedback if you can say something nice about any TWC product or service when you call or e-mail TWC. Since so many of the calls and E-Mails are often to bitch about stuff, if your call or E-Mail stands out in a positive, pleasant way, you have a much better chance of higher ups hearing what you have to say.

Jack

THIS IS A SHOCK BUT A PLEASANT ONE! Just read online that Time Warner was in talks with TIVO to add it as a premium service in addition to Navigator. If this is true IT COULD BE BIG.

PS. Every time you call TWC about a Navigator problem, issue, feature request, or question, the CSR is supposed to note that information and pass it on to engineering for BOTH MDN/ODN boxes.If that's true, that would make TWC's organization different from any company that I've worked for. In all of those companies, the marketing group decides which feature will go into the product. The marketing people are supposed to figure out what the public wants to see and what they don't like about what the current product offers--it's their primary function (there are usually some marketing communications specialists who work on the advertising message). Presented with a feature request, top level engineers will tell marketing whether it can feasibly be added to the product and, if so, give an estimate of what it will cost to add it.

I don't know whether to be happy or not. Such conflicting emotions.

Well, for me I'm at the "do it already" stage. I've whittled down my recorded content, have all my series listed on paper... let's get it ON!

I think there are some issues. CNY might be deploying the 32xx boxes rather than the 30xx ones. I have a 3260 hd-stb and it's a nice box though it has it's minor issues. The 3270 hd-dvr has some issues as well. They want to make sure it's good enough for the customers.

Or it could be (in part) that Samsung has to swap out the 320G drives for half size (160G) ones for TWC wants, so extra delays are built in<g>!

I for one would love to hear some details on how the NAVIGATOR Keyword search will work.

Probably poorly for a year or two<g>! Not to mention that I firmly believe it may take as much as 6 months to roll that feature out to the whole market.

In Passport, the main issue I've seen is there's not enough "qualifiers." Like being able to select a specific channel, or a series of channels OR multiple discontinuous series of channels.

THIS IS A SHOCK BUT A PLEASANT ONE! Just read online that Time Warner was in talks with TIVO to add it as a premium service in addition to Navigator. If this is true IT COULD BE BIG.

Interesting. I've thought for 5+ years that this should happen. I would believe discussions were held, but it seems no one was willing to bend to make a deal.

Then again, if TWC charges extra, the TiVO option better have something WAY better. The only thing I think could work is if TWC completely disables any attempt to add additional HD space to it's boxes... and keep doling them out with puny HDs as they do now.

THIS IS A SHOCK BUT A PLEASANT ONE! Just read online that Time Warner was in talks with TIVO to add it as a premium service in addition to Navigator. If this is true IT COULD BE BIG.

LINK?

xnappo

LINK?

xnappo

Try Swanni sez and click on story Tivo's secret plan.Then follow the link.Was on todays newsletter online.It talks about how with Tivo's win over copyrights over Dish all cable andSats are lineing up to either license Tivo features or to add Tivo itsself.It states Tivo and TWC were in talks to add Tivo as we speak.Does not say how or when but talks are underway.I did hear other day Tivo was helping TWC with Keyword search for Navigator. Woody

THIS IS A SHOCK BUT A PLEASANT ONE! Just read online that Time Warner was in talks with TIVO to add it as a premium service in addition to Navigator. If this is true IT COULD BE BIG.TiVo has supposedly been working on a version of their IPG to run on SciAtl (now Cisco) Explorer DVRs for some years. It was talked about in press-releases, alongside discussion of their having been commissioned to create a TiVo-like IPG for Comcast, running on Moto DVRs. The Comcast IPG which was "finished" last year (it's highly bug-ridden, but I know that TiVo's working very hard to iron that stuff out). Comcast offers it as an alternative to their regular IPG (whatever that is) for about $3/month. At this juncture, TiVo would certainly be talking about a tru2way version of its least-cable-box IPG for TWC; it doesn't make any sense to create a custom IPG for legacy equipment.

There are a number of difference between TiVo's IPG on TiVo STBs and what Comcast offers. For one thing, the cable company wanted an inset video of the currently viewed channel in all of the menus. Of course, the cable provider version lacks the extra networked functions. What it does have are things like interactive incremental keyword and complex wishlist searches, and TiVo Suggestions (I think).

"TiVo Suggestions" is a mechanism for guessing programs that you'd enjoy based on what you watch and your optional input (while watching you can press a "Thumbs Up" or "Thumbs Down" button to give a program one, two or three thumbs up or down). You can have the box automatically record "suggestions"--the recordings have zero priority and are deleted automatically if the box needs the space for something else. Though I never use it, it's a surprisingly popular feature.

TiVo has supposedly been working on a version of their IPG to run on SciAtl (now Cisco) Explorer DVRs for some years. It was talked about in press-releases, alongside discussion of their having been commissioned to create a TiVo-like IPG for Comcast, running on Moto DVRs. The Comcast IPG which was "finished" last year (it's highly bug-ridden, but I know that TiVo's working very hard to iron that stuff out). Comcast offers it as an alternative to their regular IPG (whatever that is) for about $3/month. At this juncture, TiVo would certainly be talking about a tru2way version of its least-cable-box IPG for TWC; it doesn't make any sense to create a custom IPG for legacy equipment.

There are a number of difference between TiVo's IPG on TiVo STBs and what Comcast offers. For one thing, the cable company wanted an inset video of the currently viewed channel in all of the menus. Of course, the cable provider version lacks the extra networked functions. What it does have are things like interactive incremental keyword and complex wishlist searches, and TiVo Suggestions (I think).

"TiVo Suggestions" is a mechanism for guessing programs that you'd enjoy based on what you watch and your optional input (while watching you can press a "Thumbs Up" or "Thumbs Down" button to give a program one, two or three thumbs up or down). You can have the box automatically record "suggestions"--the recordings have zero priority and are deleted automatically if the box needs the space for something else. Though I never use it, it's a surprisingly popular feature.

If Tivo could come up with a version that had the bugs worked out I would sign up. Otherwise I would stick with Navigator which is finally getting debugged until the Tivo version at least reached the Navigator debugged stage.I may be wrong Mike but I belive I GUIDE is Comcast reg IPG.They may have changed in the last year or so but they used to have that one. WOODY

As someone who had DTV for 15 years before switching over to TWC (and regretting it for awhile due to some lousy CS here in the Greensboro area), I can tell you that what I miss most (besides the much better CS and the loss of Sunday Ticket) is keyword search. If this is coming soon I'll be much happier with my move to TWC.

One thing I'd love to see, and I've never seen it even talked about, is the ability to trim recorded video. For example, if I record 60 Minutes and I want my wife to see a topic I know will interest her, I'd like to be able to trim away the other segments and retain only the portion of the show I want her to see. I used to watch a lot of tech shows a few years ago and there were always sections I wanted to hold onto for future reference, but a lot of other stuff that I couldn't care less about. Having the ability to trim away the fat and keep only the portions of a show that I want to keep would be AWESOME. Especially when we are all complaining about limited HDD space as it is. Anyone know if something like this is even being considered by DVR providers?

Then again, if TWC charges extra, the TiVO option better have something WAY better. The only thing I think could work is if TWC completely disables any attempt to add additional HD space to it's boxes... and keep doling them out with puny HDs as they do now.

Exactly,

And TWC had better be aware of the terrible problems that Comcast is having with its integrated Tivo Guide as an option. There is not enough memory in Comcast's old Motorola boxes to handle the Tivo Guide option. It infuriated customers so much that they have gone back to the regular Comcast Guide. Comcast's Integrated Tivo Option is like Navigator two years ago. The Tivo/Comcast techs are now looking at ways to make the integrated Tivo boxes run better. Time Warner had better have Tivo on this project and at least TWO YEARS of testing for speed and IPG accuracy before release. The "or else" goes without saying.

Jack

Or it could be (in part) that Samsung has to swap out the 320G drives for half size (160G) ones for TWC wants, so extra delays are built in<g>!

TWC San Diego plans to deploy the Sammy SMT-H3270 HD-DVR with a 320 GB HDD.

Time Warner had better have Tivo on this project and at least TWO YEARS of testing for speed and IPG accuracy before release. The "or else" goes without saying.Nothing ever gets tested for anything like two years before being rolled out (at least not consumer electronics). Over the course of those two years, two dozen new "essential" features will have been added to competing products, all of which you'll have to add, and the addition of any major feature will likely render all your previous testing moot. Whatever the product, consumers always end up being the final testers--it's just the way of things. All the equipment or service provider can hope is that the initial release isn't too catastrophically screwed up. The first releases of Navigator were so bad that one city had meetings to see whether they had cause to revoke TWC's franchise.

You can alpha and beta test as much as you want, but there's nothing like throwing your product into the hands of tens or hundreds of thousands of users. A truly large number of people will do things in sequences that you couldn't possibly imagine, uncovering bugs that there was no other way to find.

TiVo Elbows Into Living Rooms With Recording Patent, Rentals
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By Andy Fixmer

June 22 (Bloomberg) -- TiVo Inc., armed with a federal court ruling backing the company’s digital-recording patent, plans to elbow its way onto every U.S. pay-television system to attract millions of new subscribers.

The Alviso, California-based DVR pioneer is in talks with pay-TV providers to sell its recording and playback service to more of the industry’s 103 million U.S. customers or license its technology, according to two people with knowledge of the plans.

“They will leverage this to become a much bigger player,” said Anthony Shaw, a partner and intellectual property litigator at Dewey & LeBoeuf LLP in Washington. “They don’t want to be a patent-holding company.”

The June 2 ruling against Dish Network Corp., the second- largest satellite TV service, gives TiVo a chance to boost revenue by adding to its 3.2 million subscribers. The company, which has struggled to make money, may also become a buyout target for Dish or the larger DirecTV Group Inc. as the satellite companies seek an advantage over each other, said Chris Marangi, an analyst with Gabelli & Co. in Rye, New York.

For $12.95 a month, TiVo subscribers can record, pause and replay shows in progress, and access thousands of movie rentals online from Amazon.com Inc., Netflix Inc. and Blockbuster Inc., all from the living-room TV. That dwarfs the video-on-demand offerings of pay-TV. The company also sells DVRs and provides software in cable and satellite set-top boxes.

Time Warner Talks

TiVo is in talks to provide service through Time Warner Cable Inc., the second-largest U.S. cable-TV provider, Landel Hobbs, the New York-based pay-TV service’s chief operating officer, said on a June 11 conference call. TiVo already has deals with Comcast Corp. and DirecTV, the largest U.S. pay-TV companies.

TiVo declined to comment on its discussions with pay-TV companies, said Mike Boccio, an outside spokesman. Time Warner Cable, which has 13.1 million video customers, wouldn’t elaborate on Hobbs’s comments.

DirecTV declined to discuss TiVo, said Darris Gringeri, a spokesman. Dish, based in Englewood, Colorado, also declined comment, said spokeswoman Kathie Gonzalez.

A federal judge in Texas ruled that Dish and satellite- equipment provider EchoStar Corp., both controlled by Charles Ergen, violated TiVo’s patent on technology that allows viewers to record and play back video at the same time.

‘Come to Terms’

TiVo “can go around to everyone and say, ‘You have to come to terms with us, we have already taken on Dish and our patents withstood,’” said Shaw, who has represented Intel Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co. “If there was an easy way around the patent, Dish would have already adopted one.”

The court ordered Dish to disable offending players and provide notice before attempting a workaround. Dish and EchoStar were ordered to pay $103 million to cover royalties while they continued to provide their DVR product. Both are appealing and have told the court they are developing a DVR that won’t use TiVo technology.

TiVo leapt 53 percent after the ruling. The shares rose 14 cents to $11.05 on June 19 in Nasdaq Stock Market trading, giving the company a market value of $1.16 billion. DirecTV, based in El Segundo, California, rose 97 cents to $23.68 on the New York Stock Exchange. Dish rose 9 cents to $15.18.

The legal victories haven’t yet translated into sustainable profit. With about $250 million in annual sales, TiVo lacks the heft of larger pay-TV providers. The company spent more building and marketing its digital-recording devices last year than it received in hardware sales.

TiVo reported its first annual profit of $104 million in March, the result of damages paid earlier by Dish and EchoStar, also based in Englewood. In May, the company recorded a fiscal first-quarter loss of $4.13 million as sales slid 9.7 percent to $54.9 million. Subscribers fell 16 percent.

Litigation ‘Not Preferred’

In a June 8 report, Mark Argento, an analyst at Craig- Hallum Capital Group LLC in Minneapolis, also identified Amazon, Apple Inc., Cisco Systems Inc., Microsoft Corp. and Netflix as possible TiVo suitors. Officials at Seattle-based Amazon and Los Gatos, California-based Netflix declined to comment.

“We do not anticipate any changes in our current working relationship with TiVo,” Terry Alberstein, a spokesman for San Jose, California-based Cisco, said in an e-mail. The company makes set-top boxes and DVRs.

Apple, based in Cupertino, California, and Redmond, Washington-based Microsoft, which operate services that sell movies, music and video games, also declined to comment.

TiVo wants pay-TV companies to let subscribers choose between DVR services, said the people, who declined to be named because the company’s deliberations are private. Alternatively, TiVo may seek licensing or other revenue, they said.

Comcast, DirecTV

Other pay-TV operators may also be infringing, Chief Executive Officer Tom Rogers said on a May 28 conference call.

“Is it certainly possible that we will find ourselves unable, in certain cases, to establish a commercial relationship,” Rogers said. “In those cases, will we consider litigation? Obviously, but that’s not our preferred approach.”

DirecTV plans to offer high-definition TiVo in 2010. The company has more than 18 million U.S. subscribers and could gain an edge over Dish with an exclusive accord with TiVo, Craig Moffett, an analyst at Sanford C. Bernstein & Co., wrote in a June 3 report.

Dish would probably have to pay more than DirecTV or Comcast in a settlement with TiVo, said Marangi. Gabelli held 56,000 TiVo shares as of March 31, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Philadelphia-based Comcast, with 24.1 million cable subscribers, offers DVRs with TiVo in the Boston area and is expanding the service to Chicago.

Spokesman for Verizon Communications Inc. and AT&T Inc. said their TV services don’t infringe TiVo patents. Atlanta- based Cox Communications Inc. has an agreement with TiVo. Bethpage, New York-based Cablevision Systems Corp., which is developing a remote recording system, and Charter Communications Inc., based in St. Louis, declined to comment.

“TiVo is putting a war chest together in case they have to go after other providers in court,” Shaw said. “They probably expect some other providers will put up a fight, too.”

To contact the reporter on this story: Andy Fixmer in Los Angeles at afixmer@bloomberg.net
Last Updated: June 22, 2009 00:00 EDT


SOURCE FOR STORY : engadget.com

Um, has TWC ever claimed that a "Keyword Search" feature would be like most of us seem to envision it: the STB will seek out and record strange new programs matching the search criteria for all time, a la Passport?

Isn't it more likely, knowing TWC, that it will just be a keyword search of programs currently appearing in the IPG (i.e. 6 days), with no automatic recording capability, just a simple search?

LINK?

xnappo

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a2d0e1TXcCuc

Probably an outgrowth of TiVO patents being upheld in the Echo Star suit...

Um, has TWC ever claimed that a "Keyword Search" feature would be like most of us seem to envision it: the STB will seek out and record strange new programs matching the search criteria for all time, a la Passport?

Isn't it more likely, knowing TWC, that it will just be a keyword search of programs currently appearing in the IPG (i.e. 6 days), with no automatic recording capability, just a simple search?

However, what is described above. Isn't that the same thing? With the current, KEYBOARD SEARCH, you type in the title of the show and than when the show appears on the left side of the screen, you scroll to it and DVR users have the option to record it.

Why wouldn't KEYWORD SEARCH allow the same if not better category searches than Passport? You key in a one-word category, data is retrieved from the program descriptions of shows, the show categories appear on the left side of the screen, you scroll to them, and DVR users have the option to record them.

Jack

TWC San Diego plans to deploy the Sammy SMT-H3270 HD-DVR with a 320 GB HDD.

Let us know when this actually starts happening for real. I dare say there will be a LOT of complaints filed in just about every other market... especially as how almost all Samsung's being handed out now have 160G drives.

Let us know when this actually starts happening for real. I dare say there will be a LOT of complaints filed in just about every other market... especially as how almost all Samsung's being handed out now have 160G drives.

Thats according to some employees. The president of twc san diego said that there are issues. It's not quite ready and I'm probably the only twc sub that has a 32xx box. I've had a 3260 hd-stb but been gone due to a relative that has had major health problems. I hope I can get access to a 3270 but I have recordings on the hdc to watch. The 3260 has minor issues but is fine. Bob Barlow told me they're newer than the 30xx boxes. The wii can be hard to type these kinds of posts.

Edit: They might be out in mid July but I dont see that happening. Maybe later this summer-early fall.

I belive TWC might be scared of being sued by TIVO. Old addage if you can't beat them join them applys here.But I bet it's at least two years before we see TIVO on Time Warner even if they reach an agreement. WOODY

I belive TWC might be scared of being sued by TIVO. Old addage if you can't beat them join them applys here.But I bet it's at least two years before we see TIVO on Time Warner even if they reach an agreement. WOODY

My thoughts as well CW.

Jack

Yea we will probably all be getting our first social security check before it takes shape!:mad:

Well if what i hear is true TWC is paying Tivo a license fee in order to add keyword search to Navigator. Tivo engineers are helping TWC add it to Navigator is what I heard.True or not I cannot say but as Spock would say it sounds logical. WOODY

Well if what i hear is true TWC is paying Tivo a license fee in order to add keyword search to Navigator. Tivo engineers are helping TWC add it to Navigator is what I heard.True or not I cannot say but as Spock would say it sounds logical. WOODY

Hmmm, I read the issue over the patents was TiVOs method for recording and watching another channel at the same time, along with recording and watching a recorded show at the same time. THESE are the real tricks to typical DVR use... this is the "hard stuff." Supporting external drives is way simple compared to what I mentioned.

However, what is described above. Isn't that the same thing? With the current, KEYBOARD SEARCH, you type in the title of the show and than when the show appears on the left side of the screen, you scroll to it and DVR users have the option to record it.

Why wouldn't KEYWORD SEARCH allow the same if not better category searches than Passport? You key in a one-word category, data is retrieved from the program descriptions of shows, the show categories appear on the left side of the screen, you scroll to them, and DVR users have the option to record them.

Jack
You can hit Record and it will save your keyword search forever (has magnifying glass next to listing) and finds matching shows forever. /Dan

I just hope they don't force it on us. I hope it is optional because it is an option I will not take. All I can say is it sounds expensive, and I know TWC will have no problem passing along some of the cost for their Tivo experiment to the customers.

OK, our non-DVR got Navigator last night in Orange, CA (SoCal Division). /Dan

I just hope they don't force it on us. I hope it is optional because it is an option I will not take. All I can say is it sounds expensive, and I know TWC will have no problem passing along some of the cost for their Tivo experiment to the customers.There's no way that TWC is abandoning Navigator--it will remain their default IPG. The TiVo IPG-for-cable-provider-lease is offered to Comcast customers for $3/month and has been since it was deployed.

That's good to know. I was afraid we'd all be forced into getting Tivo. To be honest, I don't want Tivo. I've had a chance to see a Tivo firsthand, and I didn't like it. I didn't like small things such as the IPG covering the screen and the DVR list blocking the picture/sound of the show being currently viewed(I like the 1/4 screen window on SARA/Navigator/Passport). I also do not like all the extra crap features. I had a feeling that would be the cause of a higher price for boxes with the Tivo software(if they choose to include any of those features) and I have no interest whatsoever in them.

That's good to know. I was afraid we'd all be forced into getting Tivo. To be honest, I don't want Tivo. I've had a chance to see a Tivo firsthand, and I didn't like it. I didn't like small things such as the IPG covering the screen and the DVR list blocking the picture/sound of the show being currently viewed(I like the 1/4 screen window on SARA/Navigator/Passport).

I hate the lack of PIP with the guide as well and I've never liked the cutesy graphics.

But then again Tivo actually has program descriptions that are not written on Twitter and transport controls that don't send you jumping back and forth like epileptic toads along a magical mysterious yellow brick road of a progess bar.

So I can't win.

I hate the lack of PIP with the guide as well and I've never liked the cutesy graphics.

But then again Tivo actually has program descriptions that are not written on Twitter and transport controls that don't send you jumping back and forth like epileptic toads along a magical mysterious yellow brick road of a progess bar.

So I can't win.

:D:D:D That statement made me laugh out loud!!!

For me Tivo is too much. I hated the lack of A B C buttons. That's one area that SARA got right in development and it is continued in Navigator. What I didn't like about Tivo is the main Tivo menu is where everything is. And there's scrolling up and down left and right to find options. That is one of the things I hate about the Navigator Settings menu. I like the Quick Settings and General Settings of SARA where all the options were accessed by just scrolling up and down.

Tivo guide also pisses me off because to get more info you have to push one button and scroll up an down to get the more info option. The same thing is accomplished in SARA and Navigator by pressing INFO. How simple. The Tivo guide I saw reminded me way too much of the Directv guide, and I despised the Directv guide.

"But then again Tivo actually has program descriptions that are not written on Twitter and transport controls that don't send you jumping back and forth like epileptic toads along a magical mysterious yellow brick road of a progress bar."

LOL!!! The greatest truth about most cable IPG's I have ever read! Thank you!

Seriously though, sometimes keeping it simple is the best way to find information. I have seen some of the next generation 2-way guides and they may be eye-popping awe for great graphics, but there is often too much information present at one time.

Having said that, the other side of the equation is that Passport, and TIVO had designers who knew how to produce a quality, reliable guide, something that took TWC's Navigator development team three years to get up to "adequate" standards. The technology for the TWC Navigator guys was hindered because TWC did not have the knowledge of the AptivTV/Passport and TIVO software developers. The Passport/TIVO guys did this for about ten years, TWC for about three. Plus, the forced demands of the FCC to push out integrated cable card boxes, deciding to use their own in-house guide to save money, and for TWC to develope an SDV guide on their own, rather than pay Passport or Tivo for updates allowing these features was certainly a costly one in the end. Navigator's first two years, a catastrophic nightmare, for TWC that they never want to go through again!

TWC really had so much to do with Navigator and so little time to acquire the skills in developing Navigator and testing it before the mandated July 1, 2007 FCC cable box mandate deadline. Navigator's major obstacles appear to have been cleared. Perhaps the use of outside vendors (if TIVO is helping them with Keyword Search) couldn't hurt. My recommendation would be just don't FORCE a TIVO guide on any subscribers. If you have it, make it optional, but let TIVO do the testing and design for those optional boxes, while simultaneously working to improve Navigator.

The technology is there. The problem remains seeking out IPG people with experience who know what they are doing. I agree with the above. The guide information on MOST cable systems does look like it came from a Twitter message. And what's also interesting is that for program series, TWC is using the exact same TV Guide data that has been in the system for 10 years. I know specific episode descriptions for several series that have been WRONG for about a decade on BOTH Navigator, Passport, and I would presume SARA as well. You may notice that (at least on the old Passport and current Navigator IPG that I have) TV Guide is listed as a provider. I wonder how long TWC has a contract with them for guide data, and how often episode information is checked? I not only want longer IPG program description data regardless of the guide software used, but also ACCURATE episode descriptions, and that does not happen often enough.

Jack

OK, our non-DVR got Navigator last night in Orange, CA (SoCal Division). /Dan

Dan,

How's it working? Speed? Navigation? Ease of Use? What model box do you have? Any new features that stand out?

Jack

Tivo will be a premium option on TWC. Navigator will still be the "FREE" IPG. Remember no contract has yet be signed and what features they are useing are being licensed. If they do sign a contract I feel it will be a minimum of two years before we see Tivo as a optional Time Warner IPG.Remember a majority of TWC subs (SARA USERS) do not even have Navigator yet. WOODY

You can hit Record and it will save your keyword search forever (has magnifying glass next to listing) and finds matching shows forever. /Dan

Are you talking ODN/MDN here? Will what you describe catch words that are used in the description and not in the title? If not, it is NOT what we know of as keyword search.

But then again Tivo actually has program descriptions that are not written on Twitter and transport controls that don't send you jumping back and forth like epileptic toads along a magical mysterious yellow brick road of a progess bar.

So I can't win.

To me, having season and episode marks (S2E4) are worth far more than simply a longer text description. While it would be nice to have longer descriptions and cast lists, that data IS available on the web.

Tivo will be a premium option on TWC. Navigator will still be the "FREE" IPG. Remember no contract has yet be signed and what features they are useing are being licensed. If they do sign a contract I feel it will be a minimum of two years before we see Tivo as a optional Time Warner IPG.Remember a majority of TWC subs (SARA USERS) do not even have Navigator yet. WOODY

The SMART thing for TWC to do is jump right away on offering a TiVO option, at a time when it can beat the hell out of ODN/MDN. 2 years from now, I gotta think real keyword search will actually work... so there may be little reason for anyone to choose the TiVO option.

PLUS, if the TiVO option is 3 bucks, it will probably be 6-9 in my market!

What types of things can we look forward to in a time warner & tivo transaction ? Like a better interface maybe ?....Oh glad to hear someone else got a navigator update through the night perhaps the updates are going to roll out soon!:)

That's good to know. I was afraid we'd all be forced into getting Tivo. To be honest, I don't want Tivo. I've had a chance to see a Tivo firsthand, and I didn't like it. I didn't like small things such as the IPG covering the screen and the DVR list blocking the picture/sound of the show being currently viewed(I like the 1/4 screen window on SARA/Navigator/Passport).With a real TiVo you have the option of a grid-style guide, like the leased cable box IPGs. With the leased-cable-box TiVo IPG, it's the only option--no TiVo Live Guide.
I also do not like all the extra crap features. I had a feeling that would be the cause of a higher price for boxes with the Tivo software(if they choose to include any of those features) and I have no interest whatsoever in them.None of the "extra crap features" are available in the cable box guide--they almost all require internet access, which you don't really have in most cable boxes, anyway. In any case, on a real TiVo, they're there if you want 'em and no one has to use any of them--the ones that I don't care about don't get in my way. Some of them are there to let TiVo compete with cable's Video On Demand offerings, by offering an ability to download or stream movies from multiple sources, like Amazon Unbox, Disney, Jaman and Netflix (each of which offer a couple of orders of magnitude more titles than you'll find in any cable system VOD selections :)).

What you get from the leased cable box TiVo IPG are things like Wishlists, perhaps the most powerful and flexible television guide search mechanism ever devised. You also get TiVo's ability to program recordings from an internet site, from most any networked computer in the free world.
Tivo guide also pisses me off because to get more info you have to push one button and scroll up an down to get the more info option. The same thing is accomplished in SARA and Navigator by pressing INFO. How simple.I have no idea what you're talking about (and neither do you :rolleyes:). In either the TiVo Live Guide or the Grid Guide, as you move through the guide, the full description of the program is presented to you instantly in an area at the top of the guide. If you want that information for the program that you're watching, you press--wait for it--the INFO button. What "more info" are you looking for that you think requires pressing more buttons?

Of course, by pressing a couple more buttons, TiVo will give you a hell of a lot more information, like a list of the stars, guest stars, director, writers and producers. If it's a series, the season and episode number and the date the episode originally aired; if it's a recording it will tell you how much space, in GB, it's consuming on the drive(s). For any recording, you can go into what used to be called "Swivel Search" and is now called "Explore This Program", which will let you examine (among a whole lot of other things), for every cast member, a list of television series and movies that they've starred in, and it will tell you whether those movies or episodes of those series appear in the next 10 days of the guide and/or whether they can be downloaded or streamed to TiVo from one of those VOD sources, like Amazon and Disney.

If you want to know what you'd likely get with the optional TiVo IPG option, you can get a full rundown of what it looks like and how it works on Comcast, on this (http://www.comcast.com/Tivo/) page, including a 70-page user's manual (http://www.comcast.com/MediaLibrary/1/2/CM/VanityURL/documents/TiVo/TiVoViewersGuide.pdf).

PLUS, if the TiVO option is 3 bucks, it will probably be 6-9 in my market!I believe that where it's offered in Comcast systems it universally costs $3/month (Comcast is the largest MSO in the country, with more subscribers than the 2nd, 3rd and 4th largest MSOs combined :)). There's probably a firm limit to what anyone would pay for an optional guide anywhere, so there's no sense in overpricing it. After all, it's not like CableCARDs (which are twice the price in some markets than in others), where the subscribers who want them have to have them to get most of the programming on their equipment.

The SMART thing for TWC to do is jump right away on offering a TiVO option, at a time when it can beat the hell out of ODN/MDN. 2 years from now, I gotta think real keyword search will actually work... so there may be little reason for anyone to choose the TiVO option.

PLUS, if the TiVO option is 3 bucks, it will probably be 6-9 in my market!


The large MSOs are masters at manipulating their suppliers... wouldn't surprise me to see them play kissy-face with TIVO, sign an agreement, avoid litigation, pick TIVO's brains to help patch up their in-house guide, then offer TIVO as a pricey option that very few would opt for.

None of the "extra crap features" are available in the cable box guide--they almost all require internet access, which you don't really have in most cable boxes, anyway.

Don't forget the DOCSIS modem sitting in all those OCAP boxes.

Don't forget the DOCSIS modem sitting in all those OCAP boxes.That's why I said "most" cable boxes. The Explorer 8*HD(C) boxes that most of us have don't have a DOCSIS modem, though there are "home gateway" variations of them which do.

That's why I said "most" cable boxes. The Explorer 8*HD(C) boxes that most of us have don't have a DOCSIS modem, though there are "home gateway" variations of them which do.

DOCSIS is standard in all SA "C" boxes (all OCAP boxes, actually), whether or not they have the home gateway option. DOCSIS is the standard OOB data channel for OCAP boxes. DOCSIS was optional (and not likely present) in the non-"C" boxes, but even those have limited IP connectivity via DAVIC - which was their standard OOB signalling channel.

Probably a moot point anyway - I suspect that a TIVO-like guide would be offered only with boxes of the ilk of the Samsung 3090 (or newer) or third party tru2way hardware. They probably will have learned from other's mistakes and not attempt to stuff the new guide into an older SA HDC box, given its 4:3 graphics engine and more limited processing/memory horsepower.

It's an option on the "C" boxes, so I suppose it could be there. Does it give OCAP applications free access to the internet?

Well the thing is could Time Warner offer TIVO before everyone got Navigator. That sounds like a formula for total disaster. I stick to my belive it will be two years before anyone on TWC see's Tivo. That is the time frame it took Comcast and they are now haveing early Navigator problems with their Tivo. These things are not done overnight. Mike you seem to be our Tivo expert here. Would you consider a cable based Tivo version?

Mike you seem to be our Tivo expert here. Would you consider a cable based Tivo version?If I had to use a leased cable box and the TiVo GUI was available, I'd definitely go for it. As an alternative to Navigator? Certainly.

I'm fairly sure that what TiVo delivers to TWC will be essentially the same thing that they've given to Comcast (with minor tweaks, like replacing the logo), so the debugging it's going through now will benefit all future versions. As jcalibria says, it will probably be delivered as an OCAP app which can be run on any tru2way compliant box, whether leased from the cable provider or purchased at retail. (I've heard it said that its running on a Java VM on the Moto DCT boxes for Comcast, but there's absolutely no way all that would fit in the memory constraints of one of those).

BTW, there's a long video "demonstration" of the Comcast TiVo GUI (running faster than I'm sure it can :rolleyes:), which can be downloaded here (http://www.tivo.com/assets/media/comcastTiVo_long.mov).

Reposting this here after also posting in the TWC NYC thread, hoping to get some help/insight...

Anyone else have issues with programs not recording on the HDC or their Samsung?

I have had problems with shows not recording and the recording log stating:

"Not recoded because the channel was not available (2)"

I have had this problem with my old HDC that sometimes wouldn't record The Daily Show, Colbert Report, or Tonight Show while I was watching them (I usually fall asleep while these shows are on, so I record them to watch the next day) I resorted to recording the re-airs of Daily Show & Colbert at 1 AM.

Also, if I was switching between Colbert & Tonight live at 11:30, one or both would stop recording.

I switched to the new Sammy box yesterday (for the larger hard drive and the hope that these problems would subside) but got home around 11 (and didn't get to set up recordings earlier) so I watched the 2 Comedy Central shows live and set up a 1 AM recording to get the Daily Show so I can see the parts I missed.

I wake up this morning to see that the 1 AM Daily Show did not record. I got the "Not recoded because the channel was not available (2)" in my recording log. But, there was nothing else recording at the time and the TV and DVR were shut off.

So I was wondering if anyone had a remedy for this and/or experienced something similar.

Reposting this here after also posting in the TWC NYC thread, hoping to get some help/insight...

Exactly what you describe has been a recurring issue with the Samsung boxes here in Charlotte. It is interesting that NYC is experiencing the issue and, AFAIK, it is the only TW division running ODN 3.1.0_11 other than Charlotte. The problem has not been reported in divisions running ODN 3.1.1_3, which seems to be everywhere EXCEPT Charlotte and NYC.

It's an option on the "C" boxes, so I suppose it could be there. Does it give OCAP applications free access to the internet?

The 8300HDC spec sheet just mentions "OOB signalling and 'interraction'" with no definition of "interraction" other than mentioning games.

The DOCSIS hardware is standard on every HDC box... its the software-based activation that is "optional", so all the existing HDC could support DOCSIS.

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/product_data_sheet0900aecd806c6920.pdf

The SMART thing for TWC to do is jump right away on offering a TiVO option, at a time when it can beat the hell out of ODN/MDN. 2 years from now, I gotta think real keyword search will actually work... so there may be little reason for anyone to choose the TiVO option.

I know this IS TWC. But even for them, it should not be too hard to make Keyword Search work. If we get this and it's like Passport, I'd be happy. I think the TIVO boxes, after the bugs are worked out, will be about $6 extra. However, you are looking at something 2-3 years down the road. Too far in the future to even be a future. I don't need or want a TIVO box at this time. For myself, I don't have the use for it. TIVO and its applications seems to be more destined for TV power users. For myself, I don't fit into that category.

Jack

It is interesting that NYC is experiencing the issue and, AFAIK, it is the only TW division running ODN 3.1.0_11 other than Charlotte. The problem has not been reported in divisions running ODN 3.1.1_3, which seems to be everywhere EXCEPT Charlotte and NYC.

Are Charlotte NC and NYC running the oldest versions of ODN Navigator known? I wonder if they are waiting for a new version before updating? It does seem that from what I have read that OND 3.1.1_3 fixes the "Settop was unable to record__________bug."

I wonder what version of Mystro Navigator Passport/SARA users will be getting?

Jack

I don't need or want a TIVO box at this time. For myself, I don't have the use for it. TIVO and its applications seems to be more destined for TV power users. For myself, I don't fit into that category.

Jack

Same here... I have my recurring shows that all I ask is that they be RELIABLY recorded. I will be ecstatic when that occurs and I can stop making duplicate recording schedules on my Panasonic DVR.

I never search for anything so Keyword Search means nothing to me, nor do expanded descriptions or any other features several folks here are salivating over. They are features I certainly would have no interest in paying extra for.

Are Charlotte NC and NYC running the oldest versions of ODN Navigator known? I wonder if they are waiting for a new version before updating? It does seem that from what I have read that OND 3.1.1_3 fixes the "Settop was unable to record__________bug."

I wonder what version of Mystro Navigator Passport/SARA users will be getting?

Jack

It appears that way! :mad: And we were one of the first to get 3.1.x, too.

Are Charlotte NC and NYC running the oldest versions of ODN Navigator known? I wonder if they are waiting for a new version before updating? It does seem that from what I have read that OND 3.1.1_3 fixes the "Settop was unable to record__________bug."

I wonder what version of Mystro Navigator Passport/SARA users will be getting?

Jack

It appears that way! :mad: And we were one of the first to get 3.1.x, too.

So frustrating that they wouldn't roll out a better version of their software to all divisions. Maybe they will roll out the new version to NYC in conjunction with the upcoming elimination of Passport here.

The only thing keeping me with TWC is my cheap triple play intro price.

Was at the rome ny office today getting an exchange and a lady at customer service desk told my wife to expect in about 4 weeks for digital navigator in cny . My wife had asked her about navigator (she knows its really eating at me with navigator being non-existant ).The rep said her son in law is an installer there and he told her next month . Wouldn't a field installer have pretty first hand knowledge on the roll out of mystro ?:confused:

Was at the rome ny office today getting an exchange and a lady at customer service desk told my wife to expect in about 4 weeks for digital navigator in cny . My wife had asked her about navigator (she knows its really eating at me with navigator being non-existent ).The rep said her son in law is an installer there and he told her next month . Wouldn't a field installer have pretty first hand knowledge on the roll out of mystro ?:confused:

The field tech would not give out information like that unless the update was soon to hit. So this is a great sign!

Well 4 weeks in a month so in the case of both, just say anytime in July for the rollout to NYC to start. Other forum members said, 2-3 weeks after the June 12th DTV transition, so July's the start time that all signs are indicating. Going by node and box type based on my study of the rollout in various divisions takes about 3-5 months for all areas and boxes to get done. However, New York is so huge. Does anyone know approximately how many cities they have to do? I would put the estimate at the longer range of 5 months from the July start to December before ALL areas are converted. If NYC wasn't so huge, everything would be done by October, (most likely.)

If your local office is talking rollout, it is pretty certain, you'll be in that July-August time frame. If you got fliers in the mail from TWC, I would expect your nodes to begin the transition first week of July. It is too bad that they don't provide a more exact rollout time by community and box type to customers. I am certain that TONS of people are talking about Navigator's rollout, not just on the boards!

Jack

Spoke to our TWC office here today. The CSR I spoke to before was not working today but the one I spoke to said Navigator was close. That is all the information he could give me. WOODY

Spoke to our TWC office here today. The CSR I spoke to before was not working today but the one I spoke to said Navigator was close. That is all the information he could give me. WOODY

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but... when they download Navigator to existing boxes (8300HDC), will we lose all of our recordings? If so, will they give us a heads up before they do that? I certainly hope so!

In the past, a few people have lost some or all of their recordings on internal HDD.
Upgrading to Navigator has been especially painful for some (not all) External SATA drive owners.

So WATCH 'EM WHILE YOU GOT 'EM....you might be one of the (few) unlucky ones....

Does mystro have a progression bar ? .... kind of like with the dvr optioning.Like a show that is an hour has been on a half hour and the progression needle is somewhere in the middle.I can't describe what it is exactly called.Plus based on what i have read you are able to watch the trailer for movies on demand before you decide on purchasing a ppv !!!!


here's a good demonstration :::::http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Sdxw-VoxA

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but... when they download Navigator to existing boxes (8300HDC), will we lose all of our recordings? If so, will they give us a heads up before they do that? I certainly hope so!

I could be wrong for your division, but the HDC boxes should already have Navigator on them. The HDC boxes run a version of Navigator called OCAP. What you guys are waiting for is Navigator to be downloaded to NON-C boxes. That version is called MDN.

There have been reports that MDN works "reasonably" well with the NON-C boxes. Existing recordings on your SA-8300 SHOULD stay intact. Existing recordings to external storage drives, probably not.

Recordings on the OCAP C-BOXES do not apply to the MDN download. External drives (so far) have not worked well, or require great effort to work on the C-boxes.

Your recordings on the MDN box where the download is to take place SHOULD survive the transfer. However, just to be safe, you should start watching programs that are important to you now, or if you have another medium to back them up--do so. However, note that external drives are not supported by TWC, so whether or not they work with Navigator and the model cable box you have is a crap-shoot. The odds however, are better if you have an MDN box.

You have about a 75% chance or higher of the transfer going very well with no problems at all! A 90% chance that you might have to change one or two STB settings, but otherwise you should be fine. (Like that's the only problem.)

On the negative side that your recordings get wiped out, maybe 20% or lower. Series SHOULD CARRY OVER, IF NAVIGATOR CAN FIND THE SHOW AFTER THE CHANGE OVER. BUT JUST TO BE SAFE, YOU SHOULD MAKE NOTES OF SERIES RECORDINGS AND CONSIDER REPROGRAMMING THEM WHEN THE TRANSFER IS COMPLETE. Unless you specify, when you set up a new series recording in Navigator, it is automatically given first priority. IF NAVIGATOR CAN'T FIND INSTANCE OF A SERIES RECORDING, IT WILL NOT CARRY OVER. Individual recordings have a better survival rate than series recordings.

External Drive data may be erased because these things are exclusive to the guide box and software, but at least on MDN, you should be able to still use them.

Serious problems with the upgrade as this IPG has now been tested and out for 3 years, should be low. (Provided you have good wiring and signal strength, at least an SA 3000 box.) DVR users, should have a box ABOVE SA-8000.) While TWC has worked to make the SA-8000 DVR's, old Pioneer and SA-2000 boxes and below work better with Navigator, you really should have the box recommended above for best results.

Serious problems should be less than 10%. The upgrade doing something like breaking your box, extremely unlikely, about 1%.

Jack

So the two 8300 dvrs should work well with navigator right satch ? What gets me ticked is that my son's room will get navigator first ....looks like i will be camping out down in his room...lol!

So the two 8300 dvrs should work well with navigator right satch ? What gets me ticked is that my son's room will get navigator first ....looks like i will be camping out down in his room...lol!

Sure,

The SA-8300's work good with Navigator. When we got changed over from what I remember last year April all my recordings survived. (current and scheduled.) The box rebooted once (We got the change over when everyone was asleep between like 3-4 am) when I used the guide for the first time. The only thing that I had to change was resetting my Banner Duration from Slow, back to Medium.

Navigator's whole download takes about 20-30 minutes.

Jack

Well i'm starting to think by august we will get it now because i have yet to receive a notice of the rollout for navigator ...it's getting downright ridiculous with the roll out i feel .It'S get discourAGING!:(

Well I'm starting to think by august we will get it now because i have yet to receive a notice of the roll-out for navigator ...it's getting downright ridiculous with the roll out i feel .It's get discouraging!:(

The thing is,

You may not even GET a notice! When we got changed, I woke up one morning and.............GATOR on the box! What was funny was three days later, we got a notice that said Navigator was coming! hahaha.

The thing is though, we KNEW it was coming through boards like this one and I kept harassing the CSR's through e-mail, because I wanted to know when my DVR box was changing. They said all of my area would be changed by the second quarter of 2008 and that the DVR's were the last to upgrade. (Our Wisconsin conversion was around March-May of 2008) Actually, we along with Nebraska were one of the "test cities" back in late 2006-2007, when Navigator was bad all over. TWC-Wisconsin aborted the downloads for about a year, after a three month trial roll-out from January-April 2007 was a disaster. I had an old Pioneer box in January 2007 and got a notice of a Navigator download, but thankfully it never happened. (Because of the low-memory in the Pioneer boxes.) They aborted the downloads until about December 2007.

Flash forward to late 2007-early 2008. The new Navigator roll-out was from about December 2007-May 2008 for ALL of Southeast Wisconsin. This included several updates. The 2008 roll-outs went well for most subs. Our DVR box was changed around April 15th, 2008) A smooth transition takes about three months to do all the nodes and boxes if there are relatively few problems. Closer to five months to do a whole area if there are problems or a community is really huge. The roll-out should happen pretty fast, once it starts. Navigator is 1000 times better than those early 2007 releases! You will probably be getting a later version than what we have now!

The thing to find out, board members, is what boxes are they doing first? That can vary by division. It is unlikely that they would do different models at once. Our city went by node and box type. You'll have to ask the CSR's which box models are being done first. Local division management makes that call.

Jack

I never search for anything so Keyword Search means nothing to me, nor do expanded descriptions or any other features several folks here are salivating over. They are features I certainly would have no interest in paying extra for.

Agreed about the extended description (except for what we never get, season and episode data!!) but I'm surprised you find no value in keyword search. One can set a favorite actor, actress, director, musician and have things consistently tagged for recording. I'm going to hate giving that up when I get MDNed... not that I have any choice in the matter.

Are Charlotte NC and NYC running the oldest versions of ODN Navigator known?

Uh, oldest 3.1.0.x version... I think there were some 2.x versions folks struggled with...

So frustrating that they wouldn't roll out a better version of their software to all divisions. Maybe they will roll out the new version to NYC in conjunction with the upcoming elimination of Passport here.

The only thing keeping me with TWC is my cheap triple play intro price.

I think a lot of folks got special "deals" that made their costs... less than before. The problem is those "deals" generally expire. And then costs go way, way up (in my case, I have the triple play at 140, but a 40 buck credit so it's about 100... I'm supposed to get a 5 buck bump in September).

When your deal expires, ask for the retention department.

I could be wrong for your division, but the HDC boxes should already have Navigator on them.

I was about to make the same comment, but he does list SARA in his equipment/software sig (HOORAY). So he will get ODN (OCAP Digital Navigator). Instead of MDN (MuyBetter Digital Navigator).

The thing to find out, board members, is what boxes are they doing first? That can vary by division. It is unlikely that they would do different models at once. Our city went by node and box type. You'll have to ask the CSR's which box models are being done first. Local division management makes that call.

Jack

Welll, in the NYC rollout, it's only MDN on HD boxes. I think all the HDC boxes they have ben giving out since last summer already have ODN.

I think out rollout is going to be by head end, we have many. AND if they follow previous paths, it might be SI first, then Brooklyn/Queens, then Bronx/Manhattan North, then Manhattan South.

Dan,

How's it working? Speed? Navigation? Ease of Use? What model box do you have? Any new features that stand out?

Jack
It is the SA3250
Channel changing a little slower but better description at the bottom and it is there way before the channel pops in.
Guide is much faster in moving around.
Settings are more complicated with multiple "tabs".
I think the DVR (8300HD) will see the biggest changes from Passport as I have read here.

/Dan

Are you talking ODN/MDN here? Will what you describe catch words that are used in the description and not in the title? If not, it is NOT what we know of as keyword search.
This is Passport. Yes, it will catch words in description. I used it to catch a show that was about a certain city (a series with a set show title). I put the city name in the search, one show unrelated was recorded a month or so later and about 4 months later the repeat of the show I wanted was recorded. Since putting the name of the show into a series would have recorded the show every week, I did not want that. /Dan

Agreed about the extended description (except for what we never get, season and episode data!!) but I'm surprised you find no value in keyword search. One can set a favorite actor, actress, director, musician and have things consistently tagged for recording. I'm going to hate giving that up when I get MDNed... not that I have any choice in the matter.

I barely have time to keep up with the regular shows I record and and still havent watched more than half of my 300+ DVDs and 50+ BDs, so I'm not usually looking for movies. If I'm looking for "filler" shows, its usually a half or one hour block and I typically will just hit one of the Discovery or History networks and enrich myself a little, lol.

One thing you mentioned I realize I DO search for, but the title search works just as well... I typically scan though the Soundstage and Unplugged listings for Palladia... but not with a particular artist in mind... just to see if anyone interesting is listed.

The only artist-specific show I keep looking for is Springsteen: Unplugged which I haven't come across yet. That show had THE best version of 57 Channels I've ever heard but it never made it to the Unplugged CD:mad:. I have it dubbed from a stereo S-VHS VH-1 recording, but would love a digitally sourced copy.

I was about to make the same comment, but he does list SARA in his equipment/software sig (HOORAY). So he will get ODN (OCAP Digital Navigator). Instead of MDN (MuyBetter Digital Navigator).

Correct. I definitely have boring SARA.

I could be wrong for your division, but the HDC boxes should already have Navigator on them. The HDC boxes run a version of Navigator called OCAP.

Jack,

I'm pretty sure that only Passport divisions had ODN on the 8300HDCs while having Passport on all other boxes.

In other words, SARA divisions have SARA on both the 8300HD and 8300HDC boxes.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but... when they download Navigator to existing boxes (8300HDC), will we lose all of our recordings? If so, will they give us a heads up before they do that? I certainly hope so!

Well if you're really paranoid you could do what I did and unplug the cable. That will prevent the update from taking place and you can watch what you need to before jacking the box back into The Mystro Matrix.

Well if you're really paranoid you could do what I did and unplug the cable. That will prevent the update from taking place and you can watch what you need to before jacking the box back into The Mystro Matrix.

I always wanted to try that. What would happen if you unplug only the cable in, but leave the power connected on a Passport box on the night of a Navigator transition? Would the box still work with the Passport software on it or would the system "catch" it and start a download?

I remember Passport was very forgiving of a lack of a cable connection. If you power it up first then remove the cable, all the features SHOULD remain working including the DVR playback. It might even still work booting up without a connection, but I think it was like Navigator and only had a barebones interface. I did this once when digital services were messed here and was still able to tune analog channels just fine. Just no extra features like DVR recording or the guide.

I do really miss Passport though. Especially the manual tuning feature in the diagnostic panel. THAT was a priceless feature (especially since TWC here has a habit of transmitting channels across the whole region even though select ones are actually in lineups in certain areas. I was able to pull in WGN with the manual tune feature which is otherwise completely missing from TWC's lineup here)

On another note, any word on a manual timed recording option in Navigator? That one is beginning to bug me. There are some programs up into August I wanna mark down to record but are too far out for the guide yet. :/

I remember Passport was very forgiving of a lack of a cable connection. If you power it up first then remove the cable, all the features SHOULD remain working including the DVR playback. It might even still work booting up without a connection, but I think it was like Navigator and only had a barebones interface. I did this once when digital services were messed here and was still able to tune analog channels just fine. Just no extra features like DVR recording or the guide.

I do really miss Passport though. Especially the manual tuning feature in the diagnostic panel. THAT was a priceless feature (especially since TWC here has a habit of transmitting channels across the whole region even though select ones are actually in lineups in certain areas. I was able to pull in WGN with the manual tune feature which is otherwise completely missing from TWC's lineup here)

On another note, any word on a manual timed recording option in Navigator? That one is beginning to bug me. There are some programs up into August I wanna mark down to record but are too far out for the guide yet. :/

How do you not have WGN? Every satellite system has it and most cable systems do as well. Did you used to be Comcast because TWC and Adelphia have WGN. :confused::confused::confused:

It must be just for you guys then. 'Cause I have never seen it on the lineup over here in Warren. It's on the QAMs but you had to run the manual tuning in Passport to pick it up. But now that passport is dead, you only have access to what is on ClearQAM or what TWC puts in the box's lineup.

And no, this is all legacy TWC territory which is what irks me about it.

I'd fire off an email to local TWC office if I were you. That makes no sense why a standard basic cable channel would be absent. Was it ever on in the past or is a recent goof?

Like I said: Even back when we had Passport long before Navigator was even thought of it was never on the lineup here. I don't think it ever was. MIGHT have been before TWC came in but that's too long to remember at like 15 years ago.

I'll have to try an email and see if I can't get any 'reasonable' response on it. It really should be there and why it's not is completely beyond me.

Wow. And here I was looking forward to having WGN HD added in a timely manner(so I can see WWE Superstars in HD!) but I doubt that will happen if some areas don't even have WGN in analog.

Plus I think WGN is one of the "Negotiations Unknown" for TWC. :(

MSNBC HD is supposed to launch on Monday, doubt we'll be seeing that one right away as TWC seems to be very secretive about July's HD channels. Again, :(

We've never had WGN in El Paso, TX, either.

This city just has too many poor people who can barely afford basic cable. That is probably why we were pretty slow getting digital and even slower getting HD channels.

I wish time warner would stay corporate then that way there would be equal balance amongst all the divisions ....like i have said i would trade back many of the hd channels for navigator . As for WGN to not even have the sd version is inexcusable much the way in my area we don't have mynetwork ... which i find in my own opinion to be sacrilege.:eek:

WGN HD was playing in a test channel here (Upstate NY) a week or two ago, along with about 5 other channels, but now they're all gone.

we have had wgn hd (CHANNEL 894) but i do know what you mean those test channels had been around for three months ...perhaps it means good things soon ....we can only hope! COME ON SPIKE OR MYNETWORK!!!!!!!!!Two wednesdays in a row i have had time warner messing with the boxes.(In hank hill voice ...Dammit!)

Really? I definitely don't have it...just a tease with the test channel

You really don't have it on 894? We also had the channel "one hd " an bam that's now gone .

What has been the consensus about TWC not even able to get WGN in some markets? Is it a contract issue? A rate dispute? Are there any other channels involved that are owned by WGN that may be a part of this lack of carriage issue?

Maybe after Navigator comes out to the downloaded areas, the channel will be added. You subs without it should definitely request it! That is a very basic station that all TWC divisions should have!

Jack

where in ny ryan if you dont mind my asking? I believe you were Ithaca right?

Yeah, I'm in Ithaca, so I was thinking we'd have the same channels available, but I guess not. The test channels I saw a few days ago were all ones that were new (here at least), but they're all gone now. What has always happened in that past was that once the test channels were up, they'd stay there for several weeks after the new channels were officially launched in their regular places. So who knows what they're doing.

Just a reminder that there is an active thread where you can discuss TWC programming.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16715051#post16715051

benJ3 on here has mynetwork and i don't it must be some red tape making the difference.:confused:

There could be valid reasons for every market not having all the same channels. For example, I am here on the US-Mexican border. There is more demand for Spanish language channels than another generic channel a la TBS or WGN.

Although it would be very nice if they offered HD channels in one market that they would offer the same ones everywhere.

I wish time warner would stay corporate then that way there would be equal balance amongst all the divisions ....like i have said i would trade back many of the hd channels for navigator . As for WGN to not even have the sd version is inexcusable much the way in my area we don't have mynetwork ... which i find in my own opinion to be sacrilege.:eek:

Have you gone mad!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I would trade every HD channel, both my kidneys and a liver to get Passport back. Navigator is awful. Whatever you have now(doesn't your area still have Passport?) is better than what is coming. Trust me. The Navigator transition is nothing to be excited about. I had a little red vein throbbing on the side of my head when they did NE Ohio last year! ;)

You're setting your hopes up too high. TWC will not deliver.

we have had wgn hd (CHANNEL 894) but i do know what you mean those test channels had been around for three months ...perhaps it means good things soon ....we can only hope! COME ON SPIKE OR MYNETWORK!!!!!!!!!Two wednesdays in a row i have had time warner messing with the boxes.(In hank hill voice ...Dammit!)

I'd happily trade that awful pit of crap known as My Network TV in exchange for some of the other HD channels NY has. I hate that channel and for awhile our awful NE Ohio system only had the local MNTV affiliate on in HD. The CW HD wasn't added until 2008. And the worst part is the TWC excuse was that the CW doesn't have enough HD programming, when they have all their dramas, comedies and at the time the WWE in HD. Only thing in HD on WUAB was the news, which is produced by the local CBS station.

My Network still blows today. The other day I saw a show that had blue stylized pillar bars on it. So that's how MNTV is doing HD! Without the WWE(thanks to Dawn Ostroff's stupid decision) MNTV would be off the air by now.

Nope i'm just a crappy sara sub! lol i know but i can't get smackdown without the channel though.I heard my network's going under anyway so guess no big deal when you think about it.As for passport i would like a chance at it but our area dropped the ball apparently.I for one am excited about navigator the sooner the better for me in my opinion.

Nope i'm just a crappy sara sub! lol i know but i can't get smackdown without the channel though.I heard my network's going under anyway so guess no big deal when you think about it.As for passport i would like a chance at it but our area dropped the ball apparently.I for one am excited about navigator the sooner the better for me in my opinion.

SARA? I'd still give up a kidney to have SARA. Still beats Navigator.

All I can say is enjoy your stable, working DVR while it lasts. Once navigator arrives, call the Orkin man. That box will be full of bugs! ;)

SARA? I'd still give up a kidney to have SARA. Still beats Navigator.

All I can say is enjoy your stable, working DVR while it lasts. Once navigator arrives, call the Orkin man. That box will be full of bugs! ;)

Hahahahaha!!! I nominate Nick our official designated Navigator hater! I remember that dude years ago that posted here, Nextoo. He LOVED Navigator! (And that was like its first release, LOL!)

But seriously, I think Nick's Ohio TWC division has to be one of the worst one's. Because like Nick's problems with SDV, I haven't seen that in other markets. The divisions that you are in and the effectiveness or lack of management makes such a difference in service, they really do!

I remain optimistic that you guys are gonna get a good Navigator.

Jack

You can have sara ....i hate it personally....navigator's going to be my baby!:cool:lmfao

You can have sara ....i hate it personally....navigator's going to be my baby!:cool:lmfao

LOL!!! Abyss will be having neighborhood "Navigator" block parties when his area gets the download, I'll bet! Hehehehe.

Jack

You know it satch!!!!....your all invited!!!!!

Have you gone mad!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I would trade every HD channel, both my kidneys and a liver to get Passport back.

Me too! Passport did everything well and was solid with my eSATA drive. Navigator is a constant frustration.

Is passport going to be no longer? Is that why time warner set up an in house guide (NAV) ? I don't know why they don't let us choose what guide we want ? I think simply why i want navigator so much is i like change... not to bicker... i feel bad for everyone who had passport and now it will no longer be a choice .Maybe in the end we will all get what we want in some shape or form !::confused:

You can have sara ....i hate it personally....navigator's going to be my baby!:cool:lmfao

If it was possible to "trade", you would've had Navigator months ago! I'd be happy to trade. :D:D:D

Is passport going to be no longer? Is that why time warner set up an in house guide (NAV) ?

Just for TWC. Passport still exists and even has a new OCAP version with a 16x9 IPG. TWC is choosing not to use Passport anymore.

I don't know why they don't let us choose what guide we want ?

I agree. We should be able to choose between SARA and Navigator. I'd choose SARA just for the reliable DVR recording and the ability to use the eSATA. I've never used it before and I'm not even going to bother trying now that I've heard so much bad news about Navigator and eSATA.

I think simply why i want navigator so much is i like change... not to bicker...

Trust me, you're going to be cursing change once you get partial recordings on SDV channels with Navigator.

i feel bad for everyone who had passport and now it will no longer be a choice .Maybe in the end we will all get what we want in some shape or form !::confused:

Considering TWC will soon be replacing SARA with Navigator, I don't think I'll ever get what I want...:(

Is passport going to be no longer? Is that why time warner set up an in house guide (NAV) ? I don't know why they don't let us choose what guide we want ? I think simply why i want navigator so much is i like change... not to bicker... i feel bad for everyone who had passport and now it will no longer be a choice .Maybe in the end we will all get what we want in some shape or form !::confused:

Yes Passport os dead in TWC systems... it really died when TWC made the decision a couple of years ago to go with a supposedly internally developed IPG. From what I have read, the actual software has actually advanced beyond the point where TWC essentially froze it.

There actually are some very legit reasons why an internally developed, supported and maintained IPG are in TWCs best interest. Clearly, instead of going to people who actually understood software development, some political hack in the org managed to convince the management to let him/her run with a ball he/she was never even vaguely qualified to run with.

The goal is good, the implementation ranks even below amateur.

Considering TWC will soon be replacing SARA with Navigator, I don't think I'll ever get what I want...:(

UNLESS they DO make a deal with TiVO and that becomes an option, AND you are a big TiVO fan.

Of course, one COULD speculate that if that happens, they will care not a fig about ODN/MDN and will never make them actually sought after.

Do you think maybe a petition to time warner would make them reconsider dropping passport echo ? Kind of sending time warner a mighty message that not everyone is for navigator and bring back passport as a second option ? Or is it my way or the highway kind of stuff!

Do you think maybe a petition to time warner would make them reconsider dropping passport echo ? Kind of sending time warner a mighty message that not everyone is for navigator and bring back passport as a second option ? Or is it my way or the highway kind of stuff!

That would be an interesting choice. The problem is that it has been a long, and at times difficult road for Navigator, and now finally after getting the IPG up to decent standards, (although I still want KeyWord Search, dammit!) it would be hard for them to go back to an abandoned project. (What would you do with Navigator? It might be better to keep working on improving it, rather than go back to Passport.) Most important, if TWC had to pay out licensing fees for new Passport, they might have to raise rates to cover the rental cost No one wants that!

I think it's good for a company to have an IPG that they can control. The problem was in the early stages of that idea, it was executed by TWC engineers who have very little experience in IPG programing or design. The guide looked very "home-made." The appearance looks much better now with the new updates. What Navigator really needs are three things right now:

1.) Keyword Search:This is being worked on, and little birdies are saying it is better than Passport!

2.) Manual Recording: Independent of the IPG auto record guide, give users the ability to only record parts of a show.

Not A Big Deal, Do #1 and #2 first

3.) Selectable IPG skins so users can change the appearance of the guide to what pleases them

4.) More Detailed Program Descriptions. (Coming Soon)

5.) Remote DVD Service (Coming Soon)

6.) Interactive Channel Applications. (We are getting something called Photo Show on Demand at the end of this month.)

Jack

I know the csr's keep mentioning keyword search when i call and i am hoping it's the very thing all of you have been making my mouth water for. I have been told countless times the navigator they are working on is super fast and works well with the dvr's.The very last support employee told me that it should be any day now for release as he couldn't believe they have been testing since april here and still no roll out..... maybe there making sure it works lightning fast ! Maybe... who knows this time fingers crossed they have created the perfect monster! its' Alive... Alive!!!

I know the csr's keep mentioning keyword search when i call and i am hoping it's the very thing all of you have been making my mouth water for. I have been told countless times the navigator they are working on is super fast and works well with the dvr's.The very last support employee told me that it should be any day now for release as he couldn't believe they have been testing since april here and still no roll out..... maybe there making sure it works lightning fast ! Maybe... who knows this time fingers crossed they have created the perfect monster! its' Alive... Alive!!!

A CSR could tell me the sun will come up tomorrow and I still wouldn't be inclined to believe them.

I know the csr's keep mentioning keyword search when i call and i am hoping it's the very thing all of you have been making my mouth water for. I have been told countless times the navigator they are working on is super fast and works well with the dvr's.The very last support employee told me that it should be any day now for release as he couldn't believe they have been testing since April here and still no roll out..... maybe there making sure it works lightning fast ! Maybe... who knows this time fingers crossed they have created the perfect monster! its' Alive... Alive!!!

Abyss,

I hope we all get Keyword Search on Navigator soon! Do the CSR's go into any detail about how Keyword Search will work?

But...trusting a CSR? That can be a scary feeling! LOL!

Jack

PS. Watch! Abyss in New York IS going to get some super duper incredible version of Navigator that no other divisions have! hahahaha. Than we will all want to come to New York for his Navigator party! LOL!

why do some SD channels repeat in the 800+ channel range ?

i know they arent HD.

i have TW NYC

You're not alone on that one...on our system sometimes channels appear 3 times...I don't get it either.

i just picked up a new box from tw socal since my old one died and i have mixed feelings about it. It works well i guess but it's a little slow to change channels. The biggest problem i have with it is that i can't lock sd channels to stretch and keep hd channels in the normal aspect ratio.

Maybe I'm just old school but i thought you were supposed to limit your tv's exposure to bars on top or bottom. I haven't seen a way to fix this so far so maybe someone can't help me out.

Last thing is, why in the hell is the guide not 16:9? i don't understand this. This was my biggest peeve with the passport echo system and yet it's still here in this newer one. My brother in laws att uverse menu is 16:9 and it looks just fine, for some reason tw can't do this.

Last thing is, why in the hell is the guide not 16:9? i don't understand this. This was my biggest peeve with the passport echo system and yet it's still here in this newer one. My brother in laws att uverse menu is 16:9 and it looks just fine, for some reason tw can't do this.This is thought to be a limitation in the graphics chip in the Explorer 8300HD(C) and Explorer 8240HD(C) STBs (and all the non-DVRs). In other words, it's "physically" incapable of doing it.

The biggest problem i have with it is that i can't lock sd channels to stretch and keep hd channels in the normal aspect ratio.

That is because Navigator knows you're not supposed to stretch SD programming. ;);)

that is because navigator knows you're not supposed to stretch sd programming. ;);)

+1

i just picked up a new box from tw socal since my old one died and i have mixed feelings about it. It works well i guess but it's a little slow to change channels. The biggest problem i have with it is that i can't lock sd channels to stretch and keep hd channels in the normal aspect ratio.

Maybe I'm just old school but i thought you were supposed to limit your tv's exposure to bars on top or bottom. I haven't seen a way to fix this so far so maybe someone can't help me out.

Last thing is, why in the hell is the guide not 16:9? i don't understand this. This was my biggest peeve with the passport echo system and yet it's still here in this newer one. My brother in laws att uverse menu is 16:9 and it looks just fine, for some reason tw can't do this.

Is your new box the SA-8300 HDC? Or the new Samsung? On the SA-HDC, the IPG shows Navigator in a 4:3 Aspect Ratio REGARDLESS of settings. The new Samsung boxes show Navigator in a FULL SCREEN stretched mode REGARDLESS of setting.

I HATE sidebars on SD telecasts! HATE THEM! It's like, "I got this new HD TV, but welcome to 1975 where I can only see 30" inches of screen space because 10" is blackened on the left and right side." I set my box to STRETCH, which makes the image full screen, but only on SD channels. If a HD channel is not broadcasting something in HD on the HD line up, you will be forced to see the black bars or a side border that colors in the bars, nothing you can do about that. This is most apparent during commercials on the HD channels, because most commercials do not broadcast in HD.

Jack

That is because Navigator knows you're not supposed to stretch SD programming. ;);)

Hahahahaha!!!! A compliment from Nick about Navigator?:confused:

I'm on the wrong board!!!!:D

Jack

Hahahahaha!!!! A compliment from Nick about Navigator?:confused:

I'm on the wrong board!!!!:D

Jack

I never knew how the Navigator handles stretching since I never use it. Stretching SD content is huge NO! And if the Navigator will help people learn how to watch their TVs the correct way, then I like it.

I can't believe how many people watch TV the wrong way! :mad::mad::mad:

EDIT: I just pushed the "#" button that used to resize the picture on SARA and Passport. It does nothing on my TV. I'm watching MSNBC in SDTV with black sidebars. The "#" button did nothing. I'm happy!

I never knew how the Navigator handles stretching since I never use it. Stretching SD content is huge NO! And if the Navigator will help people learn how to watch their TVs the correct way, then I like it.

I can't believe how many people watch TV the wrong way! :mad::mad::mad:

EDIT: I just pushed the "#" button that used to resize the picture on SARA and Passport. It does nothing on my TV. I'm watching MSNBC in SDTV with black sidebars. The "#" button did nothing. I'm happy!

I'm having trouble trying to figure out how stretching SD channels can be such a big no no? I understand it is a personal preference but you seem to act as if it actually causes you physical pain everytime someone touches their # Aspect button

I'm having trouble trying to figure out how stretching SD channels can be such a big no no? I understand it is a personal preference but you seem to act as if it actually causes you physical pain everytime someone touches their # Aspect button

It causes me a physical pain whenever I turn on TNT, TBS, HGTV, FOOD, History, A&E HD channels and I'm forced to watch a grotesque looking picture. For some irrational, unfathomable reason there are people who prefer to watch a distorted, warped picture on their beautiful new HD screen for no reason other than "filling the screen". The networks hear about this and they provide their content pre-stretched.

WHY? How does it make a show any better to not have the bars on the side of the screen? You do realize that by stretching the picture you are not magically seeing more of the picture. Why are sidebars so feared? If you had a small photo and a large frame, would you stretch the photo to fill the frame?

It causes me a physical pain whenever I turn on TNT, TBS, HGTV, FOOD, History, A&E HD channels and I'm forced to watch a grotesque looking picture. For some irrational, unfathomable reason there are people who prefer to watch a distorted, warped picture on their beautiful new HD screen for no reason other than "filling the screen". The networks hear about this and they provide their content pre-stretched.

WHY? How does it make a show any better to not have the bars on the side of the screen? You do realize that by stretching the picture you are not magically seeing more of the picture. Why are sidebars so feared? If you had a small photo and a large frame, would you stretch the photo to fill the frame?

Personally, I just don't like the sidebars. I only have a 37" TV and as a poster a few replies ago said it turns my 37" back into a 32" (actually i think my CRT 32" probably had more picture than my 37" with sidebars). I also think it is somewhat distracting watching shows with sidebars. People have said that you will get used to it and I never could so I stretch. As for what people call stretch o vision, I can't really tell the difference if I'm watching non stretched ESPN HD or pre-stretched A & E HD and if I didn't read about it here I wouldn't know that it was even happening. As I said before it is a personal preference so I am just glad I have the option to change it. My wife and kid can't stand the sidebars either and I hear about when it happens so I can fix it. This is weird that I'm having this conversation as I fielded a call from my father in law at 11pm last night wanting to know why his HBO had the side bars. By the end of that conversation I had him learned on a few things about the subject and on HD. He has been thinking he was watching HD on several channels when he was really not. His daughter, my wife is just like him as I ask her all the time why the hell she is watching shows in SD when it could be watched in HD? I bet if I took the stretch off she would figure out how to get to the HD stations:)

There are quite a few people who, like Satch Man, prefer to stretch SD channels to fill their 16x9 screen, even though they know that it distorts the picture. For some reason, the black bars disturb them. To each his own and generally no argument is going to change their minds. Many televisions have a non-linear stretch which don't look all that bad (stretched more and more toward the sides and stretched little if at all in a middle section, which is where the most important portion of each scene tends to be framed in SD television programs).

Sometimes an HD channel will broadcast a 4:3 image with pillar boxing. Since the pillar boxes are actually part of the image, on many televisions and STBs there's nothing that you can do about it even if you want to (though some televisions will stretch and zoom a 16x9 formatted picture, assuming that it contains a 4:3 image in the middle).

Many televisions have a non-linear stretch which don't look all that bad (stretched more and more toward the sides and stretched little if at all in a middle section, which is where the most important portion of each scene tends to be framed in SD television programs).

Non-linear stretching is the method the Turner Networks, A&E(History, Bio), Scripps(FOOD HGTV) use. Non-linear stretching is the worst method of all. It creates the funhouse mirror effect where the edges of the picture are more distorted than the middle of the picture. And when a person or object moves in and out of the center of the screen it appears as if they are getting larger and smaller. I tried watching programs like this on TNT HD, but I have to turn it off or I'll need the barf bag. The wacky edges of the screen is enough to make me motion sick.



Sometimes an HD channel will broadcast a 4:3 image with pillar boxing. Since the pillar boxes are actually part of the image, on many televisions and STBs there's nothing that you can do about it even if you want to (though some televisions will stretch and zoom a 16x9 formatted picture, assuming that it contains a 4:3 image in the middle).

Yeah, you can't do anything to it because it is presented in the CORRECT format. A 4:3 image is supposed to have bars on the left and right. The fact that the display/tuning device locks out stretching is a hint that you're watching the program the correct way. I wish more devices would also prevent 480i stretching.

Personally, I just don't like the sidebars..

I actually like sidebars. I've always thought it was cool because I am "seeing the parts of the screen other viewers can't see" on SDTV.

I only have a 37" TV and as a poster a few replies ago said it turns my 37" back into a 32" (actually i think my CRT 32" probably had more picture than my 37" with sidebars).

Who cares. How does stretching make the TV bigger? Personally I'd rather watch a 19 inch CRT with a 4:3 picture than a 60 inch plasma with a stretched picture. Bigger is not automatically better.


As for what people call stretch o vision, I can't really tell the difference if I'm watching non stretched ESPN HD or pre-stretched A & E HD and if I didn't read about it here I wouldn't know that it was even happening. As I said before it is a personal preference so I am just glad I have the option to change it. My wife and kid can't stand the sidebars either and I hear about when it happens so I can fix it.

So you can't tell the difference between ESPN HD and a the analog channel stretched? Are you really watching a HDTV set? Even bad quality HDTV programming gets on my nerves.

Nick, you seem to choose a lot of non-causes for your tirades. If there are people out there who hate the sidebars and willfully stretch 4:3 images to get rid of them, why would you care? Has anyone tried to talk you into stretching 4:3 with your equipment?

I've known people who hate(d) the grey sidebars that Passport added to 4:3 images (supposedly less abusive to televisions subject to burn-in than black). The bezels on their televisions were black and they found the grey to be distracting.

Nick, you seem to choose a lot of non-causes for your tirades. If there are people out there who hate the sidebars and willfully stretch 4:3 images to get rid of them, why would you care? Has anyone tried to talk you into stretching 4:3 with your equipment?

Keeps my debating skills tuned up. ;)

I've known people who hate(d) the grey sidebars that Passport added to 4:3 images (supposedly less abusive to televisions subject to burn-in than black). The bezels on their televisions were black and they found the grey to be distracting.

I'm one of those people. I despised the grey bars on Passport. Not enough to cause me to want to stretch the picture, but enough to make me dread watching SD channels. I was just thinking about the grey sidebars the other day. I was thinking what I should have done. I should have taken the cable box back to TWC 20 minutes after I got it and complained about the grey bars and took a non-DVR box instead.

The grey bars were distracting, especially on "dark" shows like Supernatural and The X Files. You have a pitch black scene framed by bright grey bars.

Yeah, you can't do anything to it because it is presented in the CORRECT format. A 4:3 image is supposed to have bars on the left and right. The fact that the display/tuning device locks out stretching is a hint that you're watching the program the correct way. I wish more devices would also prevent 480i stretching.Equipment which won't let you stretch or zoom HD channels with 4:3 images won't let you stretch it because the image as received is already 16:9, with black bars added by the broadcaster--stretch and zoom functions are there to modify an image received as 4:3 to fill a 16:9 display. I personally hate that because I like to zoom 16x9 letterboxed images (bars above and below) on SD channels and sometimes SD images displayed on HD channels have bars on all sides, none of which I can get rid of because the bars on the left and right were added by the network (Sci Fi HD does a lot of this).

I should have taken the cable box back to TWC 20 minutes after I got it and complained about the grey bars and took a non-DVR box instead.I don't think that would have worked. Non-DVR boxes on cable systems running Passport Echo on their DVRs were also running a non-DVR version of Passport (called simply "Passport" without the "Echo"). I could be wrong, but I assume that they would also display grey sidebars on SD channels.

NAVIGATOR ALERT FOR NEW YORK CITY:

Received a Navigator "Quick Start Guide" in the mail today. Notable quotes:

When will you get this new guide? Over the next few weeks, you'll begin to notice the new Navigator on select HD boxes when you turn on your television. The change will occur in waves, depending on your cable box model.

A, B, and C buttons take you places you're never been. (Oh, really?)

Over the next few weeks, select Time Warner Cable HD boxes will be converted to the Navigator format. You don't have to do a thing. Please note that we will be updating different cable boxes at different times. As a result, you may have the Navigator on one cable box and your current guide on others.

No other program guide works like this. Instead of simply allowing you to scroll up or down, your new Navigator works on a biaxial, or in FOUR dirrections, up/down AND right/left, for even greater ease of navigation.

BULLSHIT

Then it goes on to explain what the A, B, and C buttons do, which is also bullshit, because they waste the ****ing C button as a "back button". Passport makes better use of the buttons.

Things to remember about the new Navigator:

-When your new Navigator is launched, most customers will not need to do anything. The new Navigator should be downloaded to your converter automatically and will keep your current settings and recordings. Please be aware that will be bringing the Navigator to different cable boxes at different times. As a result, you may have the Navigator on one TV and the current guide on others.

-The Navigator will transfer the recording settings list as it is on the transfer date from the old database to the new one. (Time Warner Cable Navigator needs to find at least one recording setting of a series on the transfer date.) If there is no recording setting of a series at that time, the Navigator will not be able to transfer the recording setting.

-Your previously set "adjusted start/end time" settings will transfer over to the new Navigator, but only if the adjusted time matches the exact time period that the new Navigator supports. The new Navigator uses slightly different time increments than the current guide. If a time setting does not match the time increments that Navigator supports, your Navigator will default to a nonadjusted start/end time. We advise you to reset any desired adjusted start/end times using the time increments offered by the Time Warner Cable Navigator after the transfer.

On the last page of the booklet is a checklist and spaces where they recommend you write down your current settings, such as Parental Control, Timers, Favorites, Future Series to record, HD Output Resolution, and HD Aspect Ratio, to make sure the same settings are there after the changeover.

I guess this is happening soon.

I don't think that would have worked. Non-DVR boxes on cable systems running Passport Echo on their DVRs were also running a non-DVR version of Passport (called simply "Passport" without the "Echo"). I could be wrong, but I assume that they would also display grey sidebars on SD channels.

I had a SA 3100HD running Passport before "upgrading":rolleyes::rolleyes: to the DVR. The non-DVR version of Passport had the same type of guide as teh SD Pioneer BD-V1000 boxes and black sidebars. It was a horrible shock going from the correct sidebars to those gray ones. To be honest, I was a little happy when Navigator came because of the black sidebars.

Passport and Passport Echo were two entirely different animals. Passport was a 1990s looking GUI that would remind you of SARA. I liked the original non-DVR Passport the best. Passport echo was more like the current version of ODN. It had the garish gradients in the backgrounds and channel banner. I never liked Passport Echo as much.

Here is a perfect visual comparison of the various different IPGs thanks to Cleveland HDTV poster Vchat20.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/23/Content%20Management/Support/Images/user_guides_iguide.jpg
Comcast iGuide for Motorola hardware

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8428/comcastdvr1yu3.jpg
MOXI Guide

This is actually what we had previously before Navigator went critical:
http://www.macrovision.com/webdocuments/echosavedshows.jpg
Passport Echo (http://www.macrovision.com/products/service_providers/ipg_so/passport_echo.htm) -- Focused on DVR enabled STB's.

http://www.macrovision.com/webdocuments/passportipgtime.jpg
Passport (http://www.macrovision.com/products/service_providers/ipg_so/passport.htm?link_id=rightnav) -- Mostly for non-DVR STB's like the old cranky Pioneer boxes.

And then we have SARA:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/medium/sara_guide.JPG

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2839/navv2.jpg
Navigator ODN v2 (Unknown MDN version)

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9743/guidesamplewr0.jpg
Navigator ODN v3 (Unknown MDN version)

Passport I loved though. Even the legacy version on the old Pioneer box you could tell was tailored for the hardware. Had NO issues with it whatsoever. Even Echo on the SA8000 was no problem, ever. In addition, before TWC cut it all out, we had stuff like on screen instant bill payment via credit card, basic card games with the guide-like inset video in the corner, a combination news/local news/weather/movie showtimes channel/application, and of course the defactor caller id banner. And that's just scratching the surface of what applications were actually available for Passport. Right down to the end of it's life, I think I recall getting on screen package/tier subscriptions at least for a number of the subscribable VOD channels. It was also supposedly built to support multi-room capabilities to with backwards support to the plain Passport system so DVR'd shows could be viewed on the older non-DVR STBs. A Video Mosaic application (though another one we never got here in TWC-land).

Bash it all you want: Passport was, and still is, top of the line even in comparison to SARA and Navigator. And it is very close to Tivo if it wasn't for the fact that it relies on the cableco to push updates and features which is almost never.

I always wanted to try that. What would happen if you unplug only the cable in, but leave the power connected on a Passport box on the night of a Navigator transition? Would the box still work with the Passport software on it or would the system "catch" it and start a download?

The box works fine without the coax. You can't of course check the guide for updated listings, record anything or watch channels through the box, but viewing recorded shows works exactly the same.

But there's only so long you can stay disconnected if you need to record something, so as soon as you reconnect the cable after the update time has passed the box will automatically start downloading Navigator.

I think I went 3 or 4 days past the transition holding onto Passport until I had to give in and record something.

NAVIGATOR ALERT FOR NEW YORK CITY:

Received a Navigator "Quick Start Guide" in the mail today. Notable quotes:

When will you get this new guide? Over the next few weeks, you'll begin to notice the new Navigator on select HD boxes when you turn on your television. The change will occur in waves, depending on your cable box model.

A, B, and C buttons take you places you're never been. (Oh, really?)

Over the next few weeks, select Time Warner Cable HD boxes will be converted to the Navigator format. You don't have to do a thing. Please note that we will be updating different cable boxes at different times. As a result, you may have the Navigator on one cable box and your current guide on others.

No other program guide works like this. Instead of simply allowing you to scroll up or down, your new Navigator works on a biaxial, or in FOUR directions, up/down AND right/left, for even greater ease of navigation.

BULLSHIT

Then it goes on to explain what the A, B, and C buttons do, which is also bullshit, because they waste the ****ing C button as a "back button". Passport makes better use of the buttons.

Things to remember about the new Navigator:

-When your new Navigator is launched, most customers will not need to do anything. The new Navigator should be downloaded to your converter automatically and will keep your current settings and recordings. Please be aware that will be bringing the Navigator to different cable boxes at different times. As a result, you may have the Navigator on one TV and the current guide on others.

-The Navigator will transfer the recording settings list as it is on the transfer date from the old database to the new one. (Time Warner Cable Navigator needs to find at least one recording setting of a series on the transfer date.) If there is no recording setting of a series at that time, the Navigator will not be able to transfer the recording setting.

-Your previously set "adjusted start/end time" settings will transfer over to the new Navigator, but only if the adjusted time matches the exact time period that the new Navigator supports. The new Navigator uses slightly different time increments than the current guide. If a time setting does not match the time increments that Navigator supports, your Navigator will default to a nonadjusted start/end time. We advise you to reset any desired adjusted start/end times using the time increments offered by the Time Warner Cable Navigator after the transfer.

On the last page of the booklet is a checklist and spaces where they recommend you write down your current settings, such as Parental Control, Timers, Favorites, Future Series to record, HD Output Resolution, and HD Aspect Ratio, to make sure the same settings are there after the changeover.

I guess this is happening soon.

A, B, and C buttons take you places you're never been. (Oh, really?)

Yea, as a Navigator user for a year, this above quote part is just promotion bull$hit.

Let Me Try to Clear Up Some Things:

The A button actually is your Access Menu: From within it you will see a bunch of sub-menus. On my version the first page is your Home Screen. Looking at the brochure when we first got Navigator, the Home Screen shows: (Scrolling up and down: Access Home Page.)

Movies on Demand: A list of movies on all the On Demand Channels

DVR Show List: This takes you to a page where you manage your DVR Settings

Program Guide: Takes you to the IPG time grid. This is where you scroll just like Passport

Settings: (Also accessed through the Settings button on the remote.) Takes you to all the settings that you can use to control your picture and sound through your cable box.

Find Shows: (Also accessed by pressing the B button once for Keyboard Search, again for Category Search.) Allows you to search by a Keyboard Search, a Category Search such as Theme, Title, or Rating.

Than, when you highlight an up/down setting you can scroll left and right to get more options within that category. I like a lot of the sub-menus, like if you press A for Access Menu you can get a list of things in the sub-category list on the bottom (scroll-left/right) like:

News and Weather: Content of this nature playing now, listed on the left side of the screen when selected

Sports: Sports Playing Now

Kids and Family: Kids programs showing now

HDTV Now: Stuff in HD showing now.

The B button is Find Shows: (Also available by selecting it from the Access Menu.) Where you can search by Title using the Keyboard. (Keyword search is supposed to be coming) if you press B again, you can search by Title, Theme, or Rating.

When browsing in the main time grid Navigator Screen, you can press A to go to the Access Menu or B to Find Shows as well.

** The easiest way for me to find shows is to press the B button, twice, first time brings up the keyboard, second time brings up the Category List. Scroll left and right to Theme, Than you'll see the list on the left side of the screen change to represent the theme you want, (i.e Movies, Sports, Lifestyle, Kids and Family.) you select your choice and than you get a list of sub-categories. and select from the list of subcategories.**

On my version of Navigator, if I wanted to watch a Horror Movie. I would press B to "Find Shows" The Keyboard appears, on current versions of Navigator you can only search by Title. The screen says Press B to Search by Category. I press B a second time, scroll left-and right moving the bottom list to THEME and than scroll up/down to select Movies, Press Select, choose the sub-category "Horror" and than you see the list.

The C button: Takes you one screen back from where you were before. It's like the Back Button in a web-browser. If you have only Navigated to one screen, the C button is the Exit button.

Obviously, pressing the Exit button on the remote, clears the screen of any menus or the IPG at any time.

Instead of simply allowing you to scroll up or down, your new Navigator works on a biaxial, or in FOUR directions, up/down AND right/left, for even greater ease of navigation.

OK, putting away the salesperson $hit, what's important is that there's nothing revolutionary about muti-directional scrolling, but the importance of understanding that GENERALLY, WHEN YOU MOVE IN NAVIGATOR, YOU NAVIGATE TO GENERAL CATEGORIES, WHEN YOU PRESS SELECT, YOU GO TO A SCREEN OF MORE SPECIFIC SUB-CATEGORIES. (Like the example I talked about above in searching for a horror movie.)

Remember Searching goes from GENERAL (press Select) to Specific. (press Select again.) And if you have gone to a SPECIFIC screen, pressing C ONCE, will get you back to General categories. I think that the Category Searches are very good.

Hope I didn't confuse you guys!

Your version of Navigator may be different guys, especially if Keyword Search is added! I got this info from the top of my head and an old Navigator brochure in the mail about a year ago, so your screens may be different! I just wanted to try to provide a better explanation than "The ABC buttons take you places you have never been."

A plus is telling customers that the change will be in waves and providing a place to write down your important settings, channel favorites, pin numbers, screen resolution, so that you will know what you had before the transition.

I never had SARA. But I can tell you there are some things I like better about Navigator than Passport, and there are also some things I like better about Passport than Navigator.

Jack

That is because Navigator knows you're not supposed to stretch SD programming. ;);)
maybe i didn't make my post clear, im not suggesting that this is better for viewing or more enjoyable by supposedly filling the whole screen. What i'm asking is this going to damage the television with extended viewing. I had heard that even newer tv's shouldn't be set to prolonged use of letterboxed video, but this might just be relevant to older sets or plasmas.

Yeah. Newer sets don't 'burn in' but rather exhibit a thing called 'image retention'. The former is permanent while the latter is only temporary. But even being temporary, it is perfectly visible and only goes away with a good screen wash like full screen video with a decent amount of motion and contrast.

I think the Navigator guide is ridiculous. If I want the settings menu, I'll press the damn settings button on my remote! If you want to consolidate everything to be access off a single screen, then why the hell are you still issuing us these huge remotes with 200 buttons?

I like Passport's methods. In the guide, A lets you search by time. Pressing B changes the search by show theme, and pressing C brings up the keyboard to search by title.

The pamphlets should say, "The A, B, and C buttons take me places I don't want to go!!"

Also, the pamphlet I received in the mail showed some new remote I've never seen before. It was....curvy.

The pamphlet also had a picture of an 8300HD STB. At least they knew their target audience.

Which makes me wonder...did they only send these out to customers who they know still have older boxes?

maybe i didn't make my post clear, im not suggesting that this is better for viewing or more enjoyable by supposedly filling the whole screen. What i'm asking is this going to damage the television with extended viewing. I had heard that even newer tv's shouldn't be set to prolonged use of letterboxed video, but this might just be relevant to older sets or plasmas.

Yeah. Newer sets don't 'burn in' but rather exhibit a thing called 'image retention'. The former is permanent while the latter is only temporary. But even being temporary, it is perfectly visible and only goes away with a good screen wash like full screen video with a decent amount of motion and contrast.

I have a three year old plasma. I never stretch any programming or watch stretched HD channels. Even after all this time of watching 4:3 content, I don't have any serious "burn in" problems. After watching something like CNN all day the CNN bug does hang around for a bit after changing channels, but it is not permanently burnt in. And the sidebars, the only thing I've noticed is that the left and right side of the screen looks slightly brighter than the middle of the screen. But even that is not a end of the world thing. I definitely would not recommend watching cropped movies or stretched programming because of it.

Also, the pamphlet I received in the mail showed some new remote I've never seen before. It was....curvy.

It's the silver remote, isn't it? I've wanted one of those things since 2004!! :D

The pamphlet also had a picture of an 8300HD STB. At least they knew their target audience.

Which makes me wonder...did they only send these out to customers who they know still have older boxes?

The "old" boxes are exactly the same as the new ones. The 8300 is the current box. The Old boxes would be the SA 8000.

I have a three year old plasma. I never stretch any programming or watch stretched HD channels. Even after all this time of watching 4:3 content, I don't have any serious "burn in" problems. After watching something like CNN all day the CNN bug does hang around for a bit after changing channels, but it is not permanently burnt in. And the sidebars, the only thing I've noticed is that the left and right side of the screen looks slightly brighter than the middle of the screen. But even that is not a end of the world thing. I definitely would not recommend watching cropped movies or stretched programming because of it.
that's kinda my concern, the brighter pillars and dim 4:3 screen. My old school rear projection hdtv has this and it's very noticeable. If this is the result of non-stretched sd programming i would rather just deal with the distorted images and preserve the image quality of hd programming

http://www.macrovision.com/webdocuments/echosavedshows.jpg
Passport Echo (http://www.macrovision.com/products/service_providers/ipg_so/passport_echo.htm) -- Focused on DVR enabled STB's.
...
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9743/guidesamplewr0.jpg
Navigator ODN v3 (Unknown MDN version)I've never noticed just how similar Passport Echo and Navigator are (or how similar non-DVR Passport was to SARA--I haven't used a non-DVR STB since a few months after the launch of the original TiVo). Gradient background, shadowed bezel, time on a file-folder-tab-like feature under the inset video. Navigator puts the network logo outside of the bezel, which I think is an improvement, and I was never crazy about that slanted edge of Passport Echo's bezel.

I guess imitation is the sincerest form of flattery :).

just like nick i cant stand stretched anything. however, i dont condemn anyone for their choices. you know what is acceptable to you. if thats what you like and you can live with it thats fine.
if i had a set that was succeptable to permanant burn in i would probably stretch too. but thats why i didnt buy one that would burn in.
image retention is temporary. i never had a set that did this eather. but from what i've read about it i think i would still not stretch. there again if you dont think you can live with a retention for a short amount of time it takes to clear up then by all means stretch it. its your set, your eyes, only you are responsible for your viewing pleasure.

and to comment on the grey passport side bars. there was a trick that could be implemented that turned the sidebars black. cant remember exactly what it was but i used it. the worse thing about the passport grey was if the show was full letter boxed and you hadnt inplemented the trick. the side bars were grey and the top and botom bars were black. that sucked.

Hopefully... this does not mean to far off for that very flyer to be in my mailbox soon ! Drooling ensues!!!!:) I thought queens already had navigator ? .....hmmmmm must be not all of queens then.... interesting!

HAHAHA, don't get too excited there, Socal got that same info in the mail back in Dec/Jan and we still haven't been upgraded yet. It is actually pretty remarkable and sad at the same time how far behind Crime Warner really is...

True... but at least some correspondence is better then nothing like our division does....lol! a community the size of socal and no navigator though i feel for you. Congrats ....Go LAKERS!!!!!(huge laker's fan)

That is because Navigator knows you're not supposed to stretch SD programming. ;);)

Now if it can "see" a stretched program and present it correctly automatically... oh boy would I be a fan!

I HATE sidebars on SD telecasts! HATE THEM! It's like, "I got this new HD TV, but welcome to 1975 where I can only see 30" inches of screen space because 10" is blackened on the left and right side." I set my box to STRETCH, which makes the image full screen, but only on SD channels. If a HD channel is not broadcasting something in HD on the HD line up, you will be forced to see the black bars or a side border that colors in the bars, nothing you can do about that. This is most apparent during commercials on the HD channels, because most commercials do not broadcast in HD.

Jack

Arghhh, so it seems YOU are responsible for all the stretch-o-vision going around <g>! I just don't get how anyone would actually like to have a completely distorted picture to look at... but I think you're actually brave to say what you did!

There are a number of techniques for filling the screen w/o ruining the picture with distortion; one of them I find to be pretty good. The take the outside few inches of real content, blur them a fair bit, then put them in place of the side pillars.

I'm having trouble trying to figure out how stretching SD channels can be such a big no no? I understand it is a personal preference but you seem to act as if it actually causes you physical pain everytime someone touches their # Aspect button

Basically because it totally distorts the image. And because TV always involves actual people, the distortion is highly noticeable and objectionable. There are techniques that can be used to satisfy the "it has to fill the screen" types that do NOT involve distorting the picture.

You mean like this riverside:http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2008/04/4-29-08-ny1hd-capture.jpg


i think more channels should go this route like ny1 !!!!you keep the resolution with just a touch of flare.

There are quite a few people who, like Satch Man, prefer to stretch SD channels to fill their 16x9 screen, even though they know that it distorts the picture. For some reason, the black bars disturb them. To each his own and generally no argument is going to change their minds. Many televisions have a non-linear stretch which don't look all that bad (stretched more and more toward the sides and stretched little if at all in a middle section, which is where the most important portion of each scene tends to be framed in SD television programs).

Sometimes an HD channel will broadcast a 4:3 image with pillar boxing. Since the pillar boxes are actually part of the image, on many televisions and STBs there's nothing that you can do about it even if you want to (though some televisions will stretch and zoom a 16x9 formatted picture, assuming that it contains a 4:3 image in the middle).

All of us have 2 controls, one built into the STB and one built into the TV. When an HD channel does letter and pillar boxing, I can use the STB control to zoom. When an SD channel does the same, the STB won't do it (it zooms within a 4:3 box), but the TV control will.

My TV doesn't do what you (correctly) describe as a non-linear stretch. However, I'm pretty sure I have seen it... IFC tends to use it. I HATED it. It means that any heads appearing to either side get stretched way more than a lnear stretch (there was a scwene in a recent movie with three characters on screen, all in head shots). AND if one tries to go back to a non-distorted view, one can NOT... any face appearing in the center will be way too skinny or tall. Because they do iit from their studios, we are completely powerless... and if I was a filmmaker, I would not allow IFC to run ANYTHING I made.

Non-linear stretching is the method the Turner Networks, A&E(History, Bio), Scripps(FOOD HGTV) use. Non-linear stretching is the worst method of all. It creates the funhouse mirror effect where the edges of the picture are more distorted than the middle of the picture. And when a person or object moves in and out of the center of the screen it appears as if they are getting larger and smaller. I tried watching programs like this on TNT HD, but I have to turn it off or I'll need the barf bag. The wacky edges of the screen is enough to make me motion sick.

Maybe it's because I immediately tune away, but I have not noticed non-linear stretch on any channel except IFC. It's the WORST because there is nothing any of us can do about it. Regular linear stretch CAN be dealt with by setting my TV to show 4:3.

I've known people who hate(d) the grey sidebars that Passport added to 4:3 images (supposedly less abusive to televisions subject to burn-in than black). The bezels on their televisions were black and they found the grey to be distracting.

Hey I was one of the gray sidebar haters! Yes I found them terribly distracting... and I have used a few techniques so as to NOT have to see them!

Seriously, while I think there should be laws that say a broadcaster of any sort can NOT willfully distort someone work, I have no issues with an end user having an option to ruin someone's picture/image. I am a photographer and I have made a few films, so I frame my stuff very carefully. I would absolutely freak at having anyone showing my work to willfully distort it. To me it's a desecration of my work; I find stretch-o-vision channels to be desecrating the cinematographer's work.

You mean like this riverside:http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2008/04/4-29-08-ny1hd-capture.jpg


i think more channels should go this route like ny1 !!!!you keep the resolution with just a touch of flare.

No, that's simply putting their logo in the pillars. The one I like has the last 2 inches or so on either side of the 4:3 image mirrored in the pillar area, but blurred quite a bit. If you look closely, you notice what they are doing BUT it also very much keeps whatever color scheme used does fill the screen. I think I've seen that technique mostly on ESPN.

Just found this article..... pretty interesting !!!! Sounds pretty reassuring

since the division hardly ever has any exciting announcements.




Time Warner to Launch Navigator, Deploy new box

By CNY Television News Editor on June 8, 2009

Time Warner to Launch Navigator, Deploy new box

CENTRAL NEW YORK – In a recent email, Time Warner Cable regional spokesperson Jeff Unaitis, has told a tipster that Time Warner plans on launching Navigator (the new software for use on the cable boxes) within the coming year.

Navigator has been rolled around in markets across the country. The first rollouts were met with loads of complaints by customers. However, through approxametly 4 years of developement it has gotten to be a lot better.

Also, Time Warner plans on rolling out new Samsung set-top-boxes. This will be the first new cable box since 2004 with the rollout of the Explorer 8300 by Scientific Atlanta.

Unaitis went on to say that himself, along with other Time Warner employees are currently testing all the mentioned changes.

You're not alone on that one...on our system sometimes channels appear 3 times...I don't get it either.
They repeat channels usually to cover different "plans" with the same channels. The 800's might be a "Family Plan" or maybe a spansih plan or ???. They are physically sent to your house on one channel and mapped to multiple places to allow a range to be used by the plan. /Dan

i just picked up a new box from tw socal since my old one died and i have mixed feelings about it. It works well i guess but it's a little slow to change channels. The biggest problem i have with it is that i can't lock sd channels to stretch and keep hd channels in the normal aspect ratio.

Sometimes it is a combination of settings on the cable box and the TV. I like to lock SD on 4:3 with pillars and 16:9 on "one to one" pixel setting (forget what Sharp calls it right now but it puts eveything on the screen to the edge without overscan. /Dan

NAVIGATOR ALERT FOR NEW YORK CITY:

Received a Navigator "Quick Start Guide" in the mail today.

I guess this is happening soon.We got a mailign couple times over the years and never got Navigator. We got a few page brochure and I now have Navigator on non-DVR and expect DVR soon. So, I suspect less than 2 months. Is this the brochure that says in one of the last pages that if you hold down the FF or RW buttons that it will jump "15 SECONDS" at a time. Real helpful (really should say 15 minutes).

SoCal Division (LA area, not San Diego)
City of Orange

/Dan

I actually like sidebars. I've always thought it was cool because I am "seeing the parts of the screen other viewers can't see" on SDTV.



Who cares. How does stretching make the TV bigger? Personally I'd rather watch a 19 inch CRT with a 4:3 picture than a 60 inch plasma with a stretched picture. Bigger is not automatically better.




So you can't tell the difference between ESPN HD and a the analog channel stretched? Are you really watching a HDTV set? Even bad quality HDTV programming gets on my nerves.

I said nothing about SD channel, I was comparing ESPN HD to A&E HD and a bigger picture is sometimes better if you don't have the best eyes in the world.

I said nothing about SD channel, I was comparing ESPN HD to A&E HD and a bigger picture is sometimes better if you don't have the best eyes in the world.

But it's not bigger!! If you have a 19 inch HDTV and you stretch the picture, it's not bigger. Just distorted looking.

But it's not bigger!! If you have a 19 inch HDTV and you stretch the picture, it's not bigger. Just distorted looking.Sure it is--every feature of the picture is wider, including letters if that helps some people read them more easily. It's just not taller :).

in one of the last pages that if you hold down the FF or RW buttons that it will jump "15 SECONDS" at a time. Real helpful (really should say 15 minutes).

... or should it?

Maybe it's a new feature.

Viewing Protection.
Are you tired of accidentally hitting the transport buttons and zooming through a show? Do you accidentally press the fast forward button just before an ad break causing you to miss all those great offers from our corporate friends?

Now there's Viewing Protection! Even if you accidentally hit the remote button for more than a few seconds you can be sure you won't miss anything. The DVR features new advanced algorithms and nanotechnological hocus pocus that stops the show from jumping forward more than 15 seconds. That way you won't miss all those great ads!

ONLY ON NAVIGATOR!

Also check out our new high-tech guide. You can not only only go up AND down, but also left AND right. Truly, we live in remarkable age, courtesy of Time Warner Cable.

Hey, don't forget:

The Access Menu

Tired of having to remember what all those buttons on your remote such as INFO, GUIDE, SETTINGS, LIST are used for? With the NAVIGATOR, all those features are in our easy to use Access Menu. And with the navigation arrows, you can scroll not only up and down, but left and right as well to discover what's on our many subscription VOD services. Once you discover The Power of You, your wallet will never be full again!

Hey, don't forget:

The Access Menu

Tired of having to remember what all those buttons on your remote such as INFO, GUIDE, SETTINGS, LIST are used for? With the NAVIGATOR, all those features are in our easy to use Access Menu. And with the navigation arrows, you can scroll not only up and down, but left and right as well to discover what's on our many subscription VOD services. Once you discover The Power of You, your wallet will never be full again!

Because three button clicks are always better than one! :D

Because three button clicks are always better than one! :D

Hey,

How's this for a TWC promotion ad?

"Now....for the first time ever, an unprecedented event in cable television history! Announcing the amazing new Digital Navigator Program Guide!!! from Time Warner Cable This innovative technology will allow customers to scroll in four directions...This is not a misprint, we repeat, FOUR DIRECTIONS! An incredibly earth shattering experience in mainstream technology. You can scroll not only left and right, but for the first time EVER, you can scroll up and down! And that's just the beginning!

Check out the amazing new "A", "B", and "C" buttons, taking you to another dimension, to places you have never been! The future is here! It's in your hands! Unleash the power of the amazing TWC Digital Navigator Program Guide!"

That's "The Power of You!" from Time Warner Cable!

Jack

Hey,

How's this for a TWC promotion ad?

"Now....for the first time ever, an unprecedented event in cable television history! Announcing the amazing new Digital Navigator Program Guide!!! from Time Warner Cable This innovative technology will allow customers to scroll in four directions...This is not a misprint, we repeat, FOUR DIRECTIONS! An incredibly earth shattering experience in mainstream technology. You can scroll not only left and right, but for the first time EVER, you can scroll up and down! And that's just the beginning!

Check out the amazing new "A", "B", and "C" buttons, taking you to another dimension, to places you have never been! The future is here! It's in your hands! Unleash the power of the amazing TWC Digital Navigator Program Guide!"

That's "The Power of You!" from Time Warner Cable!

Jack

haha :D:D:D

I can imagine that ad as a radio ad being read in an old time radio announcer voice, to fit in with the outdated technology.

Was paying my bill at TWC today and asked my usual Navigator inquiry question. Guess what? They are starting the first wave of NAVIGATOR launches in Greensboro next week. Do not know what boxes are first but they are launching. FYI no phone call or flyer have I received yet. WOODY

Happy for you woody!:)

Was paying my bill at TWC today and asked my usual Navigator inquiry question. Guess what? They are starting the first wave of NAVIGATOR launches in Greensboro next week. Do not know what boxes are first but they are launching. FYI no phone call or flyer have I received yet. WOODY

I'll let you know if my daughter reports anything... she's got an 8300HDC.

I'll let you know if my daughter reports anything... she's got an 8300HDC.

Thanks I'll post when I receive it.

Was paying my bill at TWC today and asked my usual Navigator inquiry question. Guess what? They are starting the first wave of NAVIGATOR launches in Greensboro next week. Do not know what boxes are first but they are launching. FYI no phone call or flyer have I received yet. WOODY

I'm sorry to hear that. My condolences. :(:(:(

But it's not bigger!! If you have a 19 inch HDTV and you stretch the picture, it's not bigger. Just distorted looking.

I'm not really sure what you mean, are you saying that a 37" wide picture isn't any bigger than a 30" wide picture when viewing from 12 feet away?

With all the talk on stretch vs. non-stretch, it also depends on what TV you have. I think that non-stretch is best...but if you own a RPTV...you have a dilemma. I have a Sony A3000 and with vertical pillars on the sides, I get bugged by TV geometry issues (bowing of the upward edges of vertical lines). I know some other RPTVs are notorious for pincushion and other geometric issues. Most aren't even detectable at full screen (unless you have a grid test pattern from a calibration disk), but they are definitely noticeable when watching 4:3 material that isn't stretched. That is the only reason I stretch. My next TV will likely be LCD...or else OLED or whatever in a few years...at that time I won't stretch anymore, or else most broadcasts will be 16:9.

With all the talk on stretch vs. non-stretch, it also depends on what TV you have. I think that non-stretch is best...but if you own a RPTV...you have a dilemma. I have a Sony A3000 and with vertical pillars on the sides, I get bugged by TV geometry issues (bowing of the upward edges of vertical lines). I know some other RPTVs are notorious for pincushion and other geometric issues. Most aren't even detectable at full screen (unless you have a grid test pattern from a calibration disk), but they are definitely noticeable when watching 4:3 material that isn't stretched. That is the only reason I stretch. My next TV will likely be LCD...or else OLED or whatever in a few years...at that time I won't stretch anymore, or else most broadcasts will be 16:9.

You might give a try to using zoom (and by that I mean watch a whole show, don't judge it on 3 seconds of screen time). Yes, there will be stuff cut off, but you MAY like that over stretching. I have tried it and must say I would prefer it to stretching.

I have some pics of the 3260 at home in San Diego. I'm currently in MN due to family. I'll be back on the 7th.

I have been following these posts for quite sometime now. I too was eagrly awaiting for the Navigator but from all the bugs in this new guide you are talking about...I am just satisfied with the Sara version I currently have. I really don't understand why many of you have a problem with strech-o-vision. It doesn't appear distorted on my screen...although I do agree that all content should already be in HD. Time Warner, I agree, is really dragging there feet on new programs. Adelphia was really great while it lasted and hated to see it go.

Just now noticed. The Program Guide is not showing wednesday, July 8. From past experience that usually means TW is getting ready to do something soon...and sometimes not. Is anyone elsed seeing this too? :confused:

Just now noticed. The Program Guide is not showing wednesday, July 8. From past experience that usually means TW is getting ready to do something soon...and sometimes not. Is anyone elsed seeing this too? :confused:

reboot the box and it should populate.

reboot the box and it should populate.

And if it does not do that, you could have Navigator sooner rather than later. Actually, about 2-3 weeks before we got Navigator, I do remember the box advancing only one or two days with repeated regularity. If the box is not generating Passport/SARA data after a certain day, following a reboot, you could be hit with Navigator at any time. Even if seven days of program advancing comes back after the reboot, you could still be hit with Navigator soon. Watch for things like:

Being able to only browse only one or two days ahead repeatedly.

Unexpected pixiation in the picture, especially on digital stations.

Your box rebooting several times a day.

Info in the mail about Navigator, Phone calls, E-mails, or a combination of these things.

Large traffic about Navigator on the Navigator boards and cities where a roll-out is expected.

If you have 3 or more of those things happening, you could almost expect Navigator within days to two weeks maximum.

Jack

Navigator came very unexpected for me. The transition had started in March and by the beginning of May my 8300 still hadn't seen it. Until a Sunday night/early Monday morning when the box shut off and rebooted. Felt like I had just been kicked in the nuts. That was a bad, bad day. :(:(:( I don't want to think about it...

I recently had several channels appear as "Currently not available" where those unavailable apparently are on a shared frequency. A signal boost remedied the situation for all channels on the shared frequency.

That got me thinking about SDV, and multiple channels on a shared frequency. Is it possible that high demand for one channel (a cause of the "Currently unavailable..." message) can cause unavailability of multiple channels? For example, a temporary high demand for ESPN causes unavailability of History channel? Hypothetically, let's say I don't care about sports, but I'm a History buff. Do I suffer unintended consequence?

That got me thinking about SDV, and multiple channels on a shared frequency. Is it possible that high demand for one channel (a cause of the "Currently unavailable..." message) can cause unavailability of multiple channels? For example, a temporary high demand for ESPN causes unavailability of History channel? Hypothetically, let's say I don't care about sports, but I'm a History buff. Do I suffer unintended consequence?

It is possible if they have not properly accounted for demand(see this paper http://www.multichannel.com/article/129487-How_Time_Warner_Austin_Did_Switched_Digital.php), however most of the people I have seen with that problem had a signal level issue. In order to request a channel, the box has to have good upstream communication. I know myself, before I got my signal levels fixed, both OnDemand and SDV would fail some times.

xnappo

I recently had several channels appear as "Currently not available" where those unavailable apparently are on a shared frequency. A signal boost remedied the situation for all channels on the shared frequency.

That got me thinking about SDV, and multiple channels on a shared frequency. Is it possible that high demand for one channel (a cause of the "Currently unavailable..." message) can cause unavailability of multiple channels? For example, a temporary high demand for ESPN causes unavailability of History channel? Hypothetically, let's say I don't care about sports, but I'm a History buff. Do I suffer unintended consequence?

First, as xnappo noted, if a signal "boost" remedied the situation, then SDV traffic management was not the issue.

You are correct that the core principal of SDV is frequency re-use. Much like cellular phones or SMR trunked mobile radios, communications "channels" are dynamically assigned to a user for their use, then returned to a pool of available channels for someone else to use when they are no longer needed.

However, unlike cellular and SMR (or even VOD), SDV operates in a quasi-broadcast mode once a particular program is requested and set up within a node. In your example, once the first viewer requests ESPN, every other subsequent request for ESPN within the same node would be assigned to the existing ESPN channel. Ten requests for ESPN do not require ten channels from the SDV pool... all are assigned to the same channel. So a high demand event or show does not drain the frequency pool any more than a single person watching the Tiddly-Winks network.

What I don't understand about SDV is why TWC would put a program on SDV for reception by STBs while also broadcasting the same program on an analog channel for reception on TVs without a STB. Case in point: the diagnostic page on my STB clearly shows that MSNBC is SDV, but I can still watch MSNBC in my bedroom with just the raw cable. What have they gained?

What I don't understand about SDV is why TWC would put a program on SDV for reception by STBs while also broadcasting the same program on an analog channel for reception on TVs without a STB. Case in point: the diagnostic page on my STB clearly shows that MSNBC is SDV, but I can still watch MSNBC in my bedroom with just the raw cable. What have they gained?

Its part of having complete digital simulcast available... allowing use of boxes with digital tuners only (e.g., 8240HDC) and (sometimes) improving PQ. At the 12-16 SD channels that they stuff into each 6 MHz slot, it doesnt really eat up much bandwidth.

When I watch the digital SD simulcasts on my main TV I don't give it much thought, but when I watch the analog feeds on an older TV (especially in cold weather when the analog pics are torn up by CTB), I gain appreciation for the digital simulcasts.

Thanks JCalabria for Post 8740, and to others for commenting on my SDV question in post 8738.

18 months after first being advertised here, StartOver will arrive on July 6th on ten channels.

18 months after first being advertised here, StartOver will arrive on July 6th on ten channels.

It was originally announced here 6 months ago, so I guess there is a long wait ahead. Which is good because I can't say I'm looking forward to it. Sounds like it will be another TWC feature that will make my once working channels turn to s--t upon its arrival(like SDV did).

18 months after first being advertised here, StartOver will arrive on July 6th on ten channels.

Holy $**t! I hope they don't feel "rushed!" Hahahaha

We got Start Over around January last year. It only showed up on about 15 of the 20 channels on which it was supposed to be added. Than one early week in March it disappeared form everyone's boxes for over a year! Now, it's back again on about 15 channels. But it's not on any of the HD channel equivalents, so I can't see how many people would care. I also think that if you are a DVR sub, Start Over is pretty much nothing. And if you are not a DVR sub, there are limitations to it:

1.) When you Start Over, you have to content with Commercials.

2.) DVR users can only rewind to the parts of the show that they previously saw. You can't Fast Forward.

3.) You can't use Start Over on a channel being recorded by your DVR. (Why would you want to?)

4.) Once the show ends in Live Time, you can't Start Over for that program.

The Good of Start Over:

1.) You can catch the Start of any show during the live time of the show.

Overall, I see Start Over as a poor person's Video on Demand or a Very Poor Person's DVR.

Jack

I will agree to a point especially on the lack of HD coverage. But I think the biggest advantage touted is if you jump into the middle of a program and want to catch it from the beginning, you can do that. Even if your DVR only saw as much as you did.

Sadly with the lack of major channel coverage and no HD, it's really more a last resort than anything.

Now if TWC went with a network DVR system like cablevision, they could easily combine it with startover and have coverage of every channel in their lineup if they desire: Have the network dvr system keep a live running buffer of each channel running as long as the currently showing program with copies kept if customers have it tagged for recording OR if someone is using it for startover. If no one has it tagged for recording and a person using it for startover has finished watching, delete it. Keep it if DVR users have it tagged. If they untag or 'delete' the program, wipe the copy off the headend storage. That painfully simple.

Now if TWC went with a network DVR system like cablevision, they could easily combine it with startover and have coverage of every channel in their lineup if they desire: Have the network dvr system keep a live running buffer of each channel running as long as the currently showing program with copies kept if customers have it tagged for recording OR if someone is using it for startover. If no one has it tagged for recording and a person using it for startover has finished watching, delete it. Keep it if DVR users have it tagged. If they untag or 'delete' the program, wipe the copy off the headend storage. That painfully simple.

If TWC goes to a network DVR system, I quit. I'm not putting up with that crap. As far as "network" based services go, if SDV is any indicator of performance, I want nothing to do with them. I want a DVR with a hard drive under my TV, not some mystical network thing. It took two years to get Navigator stable, SDV is a PITA from the first day. I have little to no faith at all in TWC.

God...Who said anything about getting rid of the traditional DVRs? As far as I'm concerned, it would be REAL difficult to get completely rid of them because it would result in MANY more VOD slots being opened up for everyone to be able to watch their recordings at once. They would either have to go IPTV or some other wild idea to accomplish that. Other than that, a network DVR service would only be an 'option' and nothing more.

Fact being, if you are that worried and they DID decide to kill off traditional DVRs altogether, you still have the option of a Tivo at your disposal. Yeah, it is more expensive, but you get what you pay for. :p

Overall, I see Start Over as a poor person's Video on Demand or a Very Poor Person's DVR.Where Start Over helps is when you're channel surfing, looking for something good to watch. If you find something on a Start Over enabled channel you can restart it from the beginning. This is something that no DVR can or will ever be able to do--essentially go back in time on a channel that no tuner was recording. (I've been teaching an older guy--my current housemate's ex-husband, who's 65--to use a TWC DVR when he hangs out here. He was telling me that he tried to rewind a channel while surfing and finally realized that what he'd asked for was impossible :)).
Now if TWC went with a network DVR system like cablevision...Huh. I didn't realize that Cablevision was doing network DVR. TWC tried some years back and the content providers came after them, as recording something and giving it to other people constitutes illegal distribution of copyrighted material. US copyright law allows for the recording of television in your own home for your personal use.

TWC implemented their initial network DVR by making one copy of anything anyone wanted to record and giving those people access to the same copy. hey came up with a scheme to get around the legal problems with that, by essentially allocating private storage at a central facility to each subscriber to the service and making multiple recordings into those private rented disk spaces. Essentially, it was like leasing a DVR that would physically live at some TWC site, with remote access to the DVR to set up recordings and play them back. I don't know whether that actually satisfied legal objections to network DVR or not. It would be interesting to know how Cablevision is doing it.