other than Caller ID for Digital Phone subscribers, is there anything that TWC Navigator does in the way of features or services that Passport does NOT do? I can't think of a thing.

I think this has been mentioned before, but Passport doesn't do SDV. I don't consider that a service though, it's a technology choice. TWC chose to go SDV so they could claim they had more bandwidth available for HD, and then they chose to throw money at an internal team to re-create something rather than just pay the vendor to upgrade Passport to support SDV.

I think this has been mentioned before, but Passport doesn't do SDV. I don't consider that a service though, it's a technology choice. TWC chose to go SDV so they could claim they had more bandwidth available for HD, and then they chose to throw money at an internal team to re-create something rather than just pay the vendor to upgrade Passport to support SDV.No version of Passport may now do SDV (and I doubt that that's true), but that's a simple matter of programming. I doubt that SDV is even a part of the the IPG--it'd be piss-poor design to make it so. Intuitively, when an IPG is used to request a new channel, either be selecting a grid-line from the guide or by punching in numbers, a call would be made to middleware to actually change the tuning, and that's where SDV would be implemented.

The bottom line is that,

With the exception of the Caller ID on TV for Digital Phone subscribers, (I'm like, "Big Friggin deal!") there really is NOTHING that Navigator does in the way of improving anything in the way of quality cable service or communication stability. Unless I am missing something. We all know about the bugs and problems, but as of now, other than Caller ID for Digital Phone subscribers, is there anything that TWC Navigator does in the way of features or services that Passport does NOT do? I can't think of a thing.

Jack
1. It's supposed to provide a much better SEARCH capability for those
thousands and thousands of HD-VOD and VOD programs being "bundled"
with regular HD and SD channels.....can't have one without the other.....
BTW: The extra revenue should help to PAY for all these upgrades.....

2. It's designed to run under OCAP, which most all cable companies will be
required to provide to NEW customers starting 1 July....
And must also be downloadable into newly developed user owned
STB/DVR/HDTV's running OCAP with MCARD.

#1 might be "nice to have", whereas #2 is cable company's approach
for fulfilling mandatory "separable security" requirements....

2. It's designed to run under OCAP, which most all cable companies will be
required to provide to NEW customers starting 1 July....You made a similar statement on 4/17, which I questioned your statement (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10326826&&#post10326826) (and to which you did not reply). I've since done a fair amount of additional research and it is pretty clear that he FCC has NOT mandated anything yet in regards to OCAP. They have NOT mandated any particular solution. The "ultimate" solution is expected to be DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Security), but that will not be ready till sometime in 2008. In the meantime CableCards are the only present way to comply with this requirement.

1. It's supposed to provide a much better SEARCH capability for those
thousands and thousands of HD-VOD and VOD programs being "bundled"
with regular HD and SD channels.....can't have one without the other.....
BTW: The extra revenue should help to PAY for all these upgrades.....

2. It's designed to run under OCAP, which most all cable companies will be
required to provide to NEW customers starting 1 July....
And must also be downloadable into newly developed user owned
STB/DVR/HDTV's running OCAP with MCARD.

#1 might be "nice to have", whereas #2 is cable company's approach
for fulfilling mandatory "separable security" requirements....

With regards to that new Search feature for "Find Shows." Everyone that I know HATES the new keyboard search on Navigator's IPG. As a Passport user, I would have to agree that it is much quicker to do a Title Search (C Button) and than go to the letter you want, and power search ( Hold down,Page up or down +/-) to find your show.

The keyboard search may not be too bad for short titles, but if you are looking for long title names of shows, many have said that it takes too long to get to them by spelling them out.

Jack

With regards to that new Search feature for "Find Shows." Everyone that I know HATES the new keyboard search on Navigator's IPG. As a Passport user, I would have to agree that it is much quicker to do a Title Search (C Button) and than go to the letter you want, and power search ( Hold down,Page up or down +/-) to find your show.

The keyboard search may not be too bad for short titles, but if you are looking for long title names of shows, many have said that it takes too long to get to them by spelling them out.

Jack
Thumb it in like a cellphone???
Mini-QWERTY keyboard on next gen R/C???
Talk into the R/C for Voice Recognition by the STB???

Unfortunately, PASSPORT isn't very efficient at finding VOD/HD-VOD programs....
[that includes free OnDemand and PPV in TWC-speakeze...]

Gotta search through a couple dozen different "channels", each containing
a couple dozen different programs....blecht, my fingers/buttons are wearing out!!!!

Now try it with 8,000 or more programs on-line....some might prefer a
web-browser app on the STB.....or maybe a tablet R/C....

You made a similar statement on 4/17, which I questioned your statement (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10326826&&#post10326826) (and to which you did not reply). I've since done a fair amount of additional research and it is pretty clear that he FCC has NOT mandated anything yet in regards to OCAP. They have NOT mandated any particular solution. The "ultimate" solution is expected to be DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Security), but that will not be ready till sometime in 2008. In the meantime CableCards are the only present way to comply with this requirement.
Semantics again.....
They are required to do SOMETHING to meet the separable security mandate....

OCAP/MCARD is what CEA/NCTA/CableLabs came up with and which
most cable companies agreed they would implement by the 1 July date for
NEW deployments and work with new OCAP compatible user owned equipment.....

Thumb it in like a cellphone???
Mini-QWERTY keyboard on next gen R/C???
Talk into the R/C for Voice Recognition by the STB???

Unfortunately, PASSPORT isn't very efficient at finding VOD/HD-VOD programs....
[that includes free OnDemand and PPV in TWC-speakeze...]

Gotta search through a couple dozen different "channels", each containing
a couple dozen different programs....blecht, my fingers/buttons are wearing out!!!!

Now try it with 8,000 or more programs on-line....some might prefer a
web-browser app on the STB.....or maybe a tablet R/C....
Fifty-seven hundred channels and nothing on, says the Boss. If you're randomly searching for a movie to watch - to the point where you need to see a clip to klnow if you want to buy it, I have suggestions: Go read a book, look at a tree, talk to a friend or, even more novel, your spouse. There are many more sources of enlightenment and stimulation than Tee Vee. :)

Semantics again.....
They are required to do SOMETHING to meet the separable security mandate....

OCAP/MCARD is what CEA/NCTA/CableLabs came up with and which
most cable companies agreed they would implement by the 1 July date for
NEW deployments and work with new OCAP compatible user owned equipment.....I'm afraid that it is not a case of semantics. OCAP still has no security function. CableCard equipped STBs meet the FCC mandate - OCAP or no OCAP!

Saying that the FCC Mandate for July 1, 2007 is THE reason that TW came up with Navigator is out and out BS! Any inference that the FCC has anything to do with Navigator only helps to justify TW's gross mismanagement of software development.

Things Navigator does that Passport didn't.

1. Quick Clips of PPV movies. It is kind of nice to be able to watch the trailers for the movie before you buy it.

2. Jump forward and backward in 15 min increments in VOD programs.

I think that is it, so far as CID is not working here in KC

Youre right about # 2. Passport only has trailers for VOD movies. But I believe that's a choice made available by the cable company - we only got them after my division became Comcast.

But jumping forward in the VOD show - I use the right or left arrow keys. Takes 10 min increments forward or back.

We still need more free HDTV programming
LOL
;)

With regards to that new Search feature for "Find Shows." Everyone that I know HATES the new keyboard search on Navigator's IPG. As a Passport user, I would have to agree that it is much quicker to do a Title Search (C Button) and than go to the letter you want, and power search ( Hold down,Page up or down +/-) to find your show.

The keyboard search may not be too bad for short titles, but if you are looking for long title names of shows, many have said that it takes too long to get to them by spelling them out.

JackI am confused, does the NAVIGATOR Title Search only return hits after the entire correct title is entered? I had TWC-KC PASSPORT and got Title [with keyboard/letter] search with 1.8.___ -- I left right before 2.___. Best Practices was to get the first two/three letters and then scroll through the hugely reduced list... you then get the best of both without typing in an entire title.

The big deal in searches to me was the inclusion of all days in the guide in one search. SARA in El Paso does not do this. I have to search each day separately, starting over at the beginning of the first letter list. Even if letter/scroll is faster than [typing entire title] that is just painful to do six days in a row looking for a repeat of a show in conflict.

v/r,
C-F

Even if letter/scroll is faster than [typing entire title] that is just painful to do six days in a row looking for a repeat of a show in conflict.Yes, it is very painful and virtually useless. Thats why many of us use alternate internet sources like TitanTV, Excite, etc., many of which have 14 day guides. Even this is a hassle if one has to get up and go to the computer "room", but who doesn't have a wireless notebook these days. ;)

You made a similar statement on 4/17, which I questioned your statement (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10326826&&#post10326826) (and to which you did not reply). I've since done a fair amount of additional research and it is pretty clear that he FCC has NOT mandated anything yet in regards to OCAP. They have NOT mandated any particular solution. The "ultimate" solution is expected to be DCAS (Downloadable Conditional Access Security), but that will not be ready till sometime in 2008. In the meantime CableCards are the only present way to comply with this requirement.

Agree 100% Dave. From my first readings about what OCAP is all about, it's 100% the instigation of the cable companies. It's all about a common platform for additional services. i.e. it's all about a way to sell us more things. My guess is that it's the "common platform" part. Services don't have to be engineered for Passport, SARA, Navigator or their various sub versions.

Cue Maria Batiromo:

"It's all about money."

Agree 100% Dave. From my first readings about what OCAP is all about, it's 100% the instigation of the cable companies. It's all about a common platform for additional services. i.e. it's all about a way to sell us more things. My guess is that it's the "common platform" part. Services don't have to be engineered for Passport, SARA, Navigator or their various sub versions.

Cue Maria Batiromo:

"It's all about money."Thanks, But to be fair the concept of OCAP appears to have the same origin as the "Integration Ban": the desire (expressed by Congress in the early 90's) to enable customer owned equipment to access cable content. That is what lead to CableCards, DCAS, etc. But the problem, has been that cable has migrated to interactive systems and these security mandates have not addressed that. OCAP is the cable industry response to that goal of integration of customer owned equipment. Cable has also discovered that this technology also opens new avenues of revenue (gaming on the STB, etc.) and is, as I write this, actively promoting this "new platform" to applications providers.

The "Integration Ban" and DCAS have become confused with this, because DCAS will apparently be depending on the roll-out of OCAP as a vehicle.

I also wonder that, in the long run, how much cable really wants to be in the STB "rental" business. If a DVR costs them $350-$400, do they make much money renting (and maintaining it) at $10/month? Perhaps the primary reason that they are in the STB business is that it is the only way that they can assure that they can roll out new technology. Right now, that is things like SDV, VOD, etc. but tomorrow it may be advanced compression (beyond MPEG-4 {and right now, our STBs are only MPEG-2}).

Riverside_Guy & davehancock: Thanks for the informative exchange!

Yes, it is very painful and virtually useless. Thats why many of us use alternate internet sources like TitanTV, Excite, etc., many of which have 14 day guides. Even this is a hassle if one has to get up and go to the computer "room", but who doesn't have a wireless notebook these days. ;)Thanks, but you already got me there, I was just being lazy. I remembered your comments about this and the VCR vs. TIVO perspectives from before (during the [great debates]) and had prepped the wife. (I knew I would eventually end up in a SARA-town sometime).

During the 9 month RV detour without cable or internet, she decided she likes the TV Guide magazine, so that is her current solution (and I get the scratch & sniff Earl cards). I do not get enough time to watch TV here to have more than 2-3 shows to schedule. Not enough to bother learning beyond the basics of the SARA [TTP/ Best Practices], but I printed out the thread for her.

v/r,
C-F

For anyone following the Lincoln, NE Navigator fiasco, here's the latest developments with the City Council's Cable TV Advisory Board:

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/05/11/news/local/doc4643c72a0bd29900400501.txt

The "Integration Ban" and DCAS have become confused with this, because DCAS will apparently be depending on the roll-out of OCAP as a vehicle.


Dave,

Have you read this:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257519A1.pdf

It sounds to me like to does tie together Navigator and the security issue to some degree.

xnappo

Dave,

Have you read this:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-257519A1.pdf

It sounds to me like to does tie together Navigator and the security issue to some degree.

xnappo

Xnappo, Thanks. Yes, I'm familiar with the document. Other than some actions regarding waivers (mostly turned down), this is the most recent ruling from the FCC on the subject.

Note that this document does not mention OCAP, or tie to Navigator in any way.

The mandate really relates just to security - not to bi-directional operation and integration of navigational functions.

While, in the long term, TW apparently plans on meeting this mandate by deploying a fully developed software solution, Navigator is not the mandated solution that TW would have you believe it is(trying to shift the blame to the government - which seems to be such a popular thing to do these days).

Dave, do you think there's ANYONE in a serious management capacity at TWC that has Clue One what a "fully developed software solution" actually is?

Dave, do you think there's ANYONE in a serious management capacity at TWC that has Clue One what a "fully developed software solution" actually is?
NO - :eek: Of course not (as they have totally demonstrated). But, they must now realize that they have a significant problem and that they will have an ever bigger problem IF they continue on this road in larger cities. One indication is that they apparently (and wisely) have been slow to roll it out on DVRs.

Two morales of the story:

1.) Newer isn't always better, and is often demonstrated to be much worse.

2.) Passport is a fine product. Don't fix what isn't broken.

It's like that software developer said at the first TWC Lincoln Nebraska meeting to paraphrase. TWC had a vision, they got too far ahead of that vision, didn't have fully developed technology (in Navigator) to meet that vision and got stuck with a buggy product because the higher ups got too "New and Cool" happy without testing in the labs, than finding and fixing all of the bugs first.

Jack

PS. Thank God for Passport software and my Pioneer box!

You know, I've been reading through this post with great interest because I have an SA8300HD with SARA. I've expressed numerous concerns to Time Warner over how bad the current guide system is when compared to Dish or DirecTV. I read TWCs website and alot of the enhancement sound great, like exactly what I'm waiting for. However, it seems this has been a disastrous undertaking. Why don't they bite the bullet and contract it out to a firm who specializes in this type of software or better yet, work with Tivo to integrate it into its DVR boxes.

Regarding program data, I doubt with the cable companies nor TiVo actually amass it, I suspect they buy the data from TV Guide. My guess would be that the reason TiVo has 14 days and TW/Comcast 6 is the limitations of the current generation of cable STBs.

From long before I even HAD a DVR, I thought TiVo's best move was to license their software to the cable guys. Probably 2 issues scuttled that, issues with the hardware the cable guys has deployed and probably TiVo wanting too much money.

Still I am aghast that there are many folks who opt for the TiVo III series, I don't think the actually differences between what you get from the cable guys is worth the huge incremental cost.

I agree. I mean, the SARA software in my DVR works. The issue is the added functionality that is missing. Simple things like a better search via on screen keyboard and guide customization along with a better GUI. I really wish they would get away from the asinine A,B,C configuration and just use the standard select and arrow keys.

For any cable engineers or techs out there who remember the launch of Passport around 2000-2001, do you recall Passport having similar problems when it first came out, and if so, how long did it take to stabilize the Passport software?

Jack

Regarding program data, I doubt with the cable companies nor TiVo actually amass it, I suspect they buy the data from TV Guide. My guess would be that the reason TiVo has 14 days and TW/Comcast 6 is the limitations of the current generation of cable STBs.

From long before I even HAD a DVR, I thought TiVo's best move was to license their software to the cable guys. Probably 2 issues scuttled that, issues with the hardware the cable guys has deployed and probably TiVo wanting too much money.

Still I am aghast that there are many folks who opt for the TiVo III series, I don't think the actually differences between what you get from the cable guys is worth the huge incremental cost.
This also touches on branding. Every time "Tivo" or "TV Guide" appears in front of a TWC, Comcast, etc, customer, the awareness of that brand increases. Not necessarily at the expense of the cable provider because they don't compete in that space. But TWC has decided to do so and use that as a way of increasing it's brand awareness.

I am sooo glad to be a Comcast customer.

I am sooo glad to be a Comcast customer.You must be crazy (unless it is the fear of Navigator): Comcast customer service REALLY SUCKS. Two of our kids have Comcast (Montgomery County, MD and Atlanta, GA) and both have had significant problems with Comcast getting them to fix basic things.

I'm soooooooo glad to NOT be a Comcast customer. :)

You must be crazy (unless it is the fear of Navigator): Comcast customer service REALLY SUCKS. Two of our kids have Comcast (Montgomery County, MD and Atlanta, GA) and both have had significant problems with Comcast getting them to fix basic things.

I'm soooooooo glad to NOT be a Comcast customer. :)
Well, I've never been diagnosed. :p

<knocking on wood>I've never had to use Comcast customer service, so from my perspective everything is peachy. And I will not be Navigatored!

See this article about unrest in the heartland: :mad:

http://www.journalstar.com/news/local/doc464a2f3ba9ee3337110583.txt

The above link is now broken; however if you missed the article, forum member bgooch has posted a copy on the AVS Forum TWC Consumer Input Thread, post #626:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10557472

Wonder if any of those quoted are AVS members? It would be nice to know that AVS has been instrumental in allowing us all to compare notes on this and empower those affected to effectively voice their complaints.

Guys,

For those with Navigator, how are things since the most recent update to your boxes? If you know, what was the most recent update put on your boxes? What (if anything) has gotten better? What has stayed the same or gotten worse?

It appears that the people with DVR's are still having the most problems. Did your recent update download from April or May improve any of those issues?

What about reboots or system down time? Always interested to know any future developments.

Regards,

Jack

Guys,

For those with Navigator, how are things since the most recent update to your boxes? If you know, what was the most recent update put on your boxes? What (if anything) has gotten better? What has stayed the same or gotten worse?

It appears that the people with DVR's are still having the most problems. Did your recent update download from April or May improve any of those issues?

What about reboots or system down time? Always interested to know any future developments.

Regards,

Jack

I was stalling on this because I only have secondhand information (not a digital customer myself). However since no one has responded (other than Dorny423, who has given post-update assessments in several posts to this thread (#747, #753, #758, #845) I'll add what I know, or at least what I think I know from looking at customer complaints received by the City of Lincoln. (I'm a member of the Cable Board, I get daily copies of the Navigator complaints.)

My sense (and Navigator users please feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the product generally is more stable; also that it's become somewhat closer to Passport, though many still find it inferior in terms of features.

And there are still people have to do frequent reboots; a person that I work with said his box crashed two days ago and won't come back up. He's called Time Warner; they're supposed to come over "sometime" today ("sometime" on Saturday is kind of a convenient customer service window, n'est-ce pas?) and figure out what's wrong. Not sure if his problem is related to the Navigator or not. I suspect that many such things are kind of a mix between new-fangled memory-hogging software and old-fashioned memory-weak boxes. So the Navigator people can blame the box or the connection, the hardware people can blame the Navigator, and meanwhile the customer misses Gray's Anatomy or American Idol.

Honesty compels me to say that a few people have remarked (either to the Cable Board or to myself personally) that they now like Navigator better than Passport. I think they're in the minority, but such people do actually exist. And I think they have the right to their opinions; which is why (when the rubber hit the road and it came time to consider a recommendation on Interactive Program Guides for our soon-to-be-final Cable Board report) I didn't write down something that said to pull Navigator off the shelf and replace all those guides with Passport. I instead submitted, and was able to get through by an 8-2 vote, a nonbinding "Customer Choice Resolution" (copy attached) which would (if Time Warner agrees to it) allow customers the option to choose their own guide. It's of course unlikely to t have any effect (that "Time Warner agrees to it" condition being a pretty steep incline), but at least my conscience is now clear on that issue.

Does anyone know whether the "Piedmont Triad Region" of North Carolina is using Navigator? The following links:

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/MGArticle/WSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173350971673

and

http://www.triadtwcable.com/template_media/digitalnotice.html

sound eerily similar to a crash that happened here in Lincoln last January. In fact, the conditions that TWC describes in paragraph 2 of that "digitalnotice" apology sound exactly like what happened on that cold winter Nebraska night.

Could be just a coincidence, but for a conspiracy theorist like me it's not hard to imagine that Navigator might be lurking somewhere in the wings. Anyone know otherwise?

Does anyone know whether the "Piedmont Triad Region" of North Carolina is using Navigator? The following links:



Uh oh, that's getting uncomfortably close. First we had to deal with the creeping infestation of fire ants as they expand their territory, marching inexorably northward. Now, this. Navigator's coming! :eek:

:p

I was stalling on this because I only have secondhand information (not a digital customer myself). However since no one has responded (other than Dorny423, who has given post-update assessments in several posts to this thread (#747, #753, #758, #845) I'll add what I know, or at least what I think I know from looking at customer complaints received by the City of Lincoln. (I'm a member of the Cable Board, I get daily copies of the Navigator complaints.)

My sense (and Navigator users please feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the product generally is more stable; also that it's become somewhat closer to Passport, though many still find it inferior in terms of features.

And there are still people have to do frequent reboots; a person that I work with said his box crashed two days ago and won't come back up. He's called Time Warner; they're supposed to come over "sometime" today ("sometime" on Saturday is kind of a convenient customer service window, n'est-ce pas?) and figure out what's wrong. Not sure if his problem is related to the Navigator or not. I suspect that many such things are kind of a mix between new-fangled memory-hogging software and old-fashioned memory-weak boxes. So the Navigator people can blame the box or the connection, the hardware people can blame the Navigator, and meanwhile the customer misses Gray's Anatomy or American Idol.

Honesty compels me to say that a few people have remarked (either to the Cable Board or to myself personally) that they now like Navigator better than Passport. I think they're in the minority, but such people do actually exist. And I think they have the right to their opinions; which is why (when the rubber hit the road and it came time to consider a recommendation on Interactive Program Guides for our soon-to-be-final Cable Board report) I didn't write down something that said to pull Navigator off the shelf and replace all those guides with Passport. I instead submitted, and was able to get through by an 8-2 vote, a nonbinding "Customer Choice Resolution" (copy attached) which would (if Time Warner agrees to it) allow customers the option to choose their own guide. It's of course unlikely to t have any effect (that "Time Warner agrees to it" condition being a pretty steep incline), but at least my conscience is now clear on that issue.

Thanks!

The doc. wouldn't open in IE (Customer Choice PDF) but it opened in Firefox if anyone has trouble opening it. A good idea, but I don't know how much TWC will go along with this

Jack

I was stalling on this because I only have secondhand information (not a digital customer myself). However since no one has responded (other than Dorny423, who has given post-update assessments in several posts to this thread (#747, #753, #758, #845) I'll add what I know, or at least what I think I know from looking at customer complaints received by the City of Lincoln. (I'm a member of the Cable Board, I get daily copies of the Navigator complaints.)

My sense (and Navigator users please feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong) is that the product generally is more stable; also that it's become somewhat closer to Passport, though many still find it inferior in terms of features.

And there are still people have to do frequent reboots; a person that I work with said his box crashed two days ago and won't come back up. He's called Time Warner; they're supposed to come over "sometime" today ("sometime" on Saturday is kind of a convenient customer service window, n'est-ce pas?) and figure out what's wrong. Not sure if his problem is related to the Navigator or not. I suspect that many such things are kind of a mix between new-fangled memory-hogging software and old-fashioned memory-weak boxes. So the Navigator people can blame the box or the connection, the hardware people can blame the Navigator, and meanwhile the customer misses Gray's Anatomy or American Idol.

Honesty compels me to say that a few people have remarked (either to the Cable Board or to myself personally) that they now like Navigator better than Passport. I think they're in the minority, but such people do actually exist. And I think they have the right to their opinions; which is why (when the rubber hit the road and it came time to consider a recommendation on Interactive Program Guides for our soon-to-be-final Cable Board report) I didn't write down something that said to pull Navigator off the shelf and replace all those guides with Passport. I instead submitted, and was able to get through by an 8-2 vote, a nonbinding "Customer Choice Resolution" (copy attached) which would (if Time Warner agrees to it) allow customers the option to choose their own guide. It's of course unlikely to t have any effect (that "Time Warner agrees to it" condition being a pretty steep incline), but at least my conscience is now clear on that issue.

I thought about replying but I really don't have anything new to report since my last posts.

Although my box has mysteriously not recorded 3 programs in the past month or so since this last update. No conflicts that I know of either and none had shown up in the software. There is a log in the menu that tells you what you did with or what happened to your recorded programs (delete, cancel, ect.). All three came up as "The set-top was unable to record this program". One time I caught it not working and tried to go and record the program manually, the box was convinced that it was actually recording it. I tried canceling the recording that it wasn't doing and it wouldn't stop the phantom recording. In the end I shut the box off and turned it back on and it let me record the program (CSI if I remember right). All three happened while I was recording two programs at once. But I do that a lot and haven't had that problem the majority of the time.

Wasn't too happy about that stuff. Network TV is pretty much done for the year so I probably won't have that problem now. If I get bored this summer maybe I will try to duplicate the problem manually.

The thing is I have never had a problem like this before the last update, that I remember, and is probably my most significant issue with this software to date.

Don't get me wrong I am not endorsing it as it isn't anywhere near as nice as Passport was. Just that I haven't had the problems others in this area have had. I do have the 8300HD which probably has the memory to handle it. Others I know had some of the smaller non HD boxes and they have had more problems. I don't really know anyone who has just digital cable and no DVR. If I remember right that is a smaller box yet in terms of memory (I used to have one before we got DVR service in my area). I haven't heard any of my friends complain about it lately so it must be getting better or they are getting used to it.

I do have the 8300HD which probably has the memory to handle it. Others I know had some of the smaller non HD boxes and they have had more problems. I don't really know anyone who has just digital cable and no DVR. If I remember right that is a smaller box yet in terms of memory (I used to have one before we got DVR service in my area). Your point on memory prompted me to look up the spec sheets of the 8300. Both the 8300 and the 8300HD have the same amount of RAM for Applications: 64MB. The HD model has twice the RAM (32MB vs 16MB) allocated for media - but that makes sense as there is more image data to deal with. More recent spec sheets do show 128MB being available to the cable companies as an option - but unless TW Nebraska was thinking WAY AHEAD, they likely are limited to the 64MB models. By the way: the 8000HD had 32MB of applications RAM.

Thought that you guys might find that of interest. ;)

Does anyone know whether the "Piedmont Triad Region" of North Carolina is using Navigator? The following links:

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ/MGArticle/WSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1173350971673

and

http://www.triadtwcable.com/template_media/digitalnotice.html

sound eerily similar to a crash that happened here in Lincoln last January. In fact, the conditions that TWC describes in paragraph 2 of that "digitalnotice" apology sound exactly like what happened on that cold winter Nebraska night.

Could be just a coincidence, but for a conspiracy theorist like me it's not hard to imagine that Navigator might be lurking somewhere in the wings. Anyone know otherwise?

I understand the upgrades were for two features. One was the start over feature - which apparently was ditched during the upgrade because it hasn't been active on any of my boxes. They were also trying to integrate the two different Triad TW systems into one system (Greensboro / Winston-Salem). I like how the article says an automatic credit would be applied - I had to call and complain for the credit.

We have SARA which I understand will be the last to upgrade to Navigator.

Although my box has mysteriously not recorded 3 programs in the past month or so since this last update. No conflicts that I know of either and none had shown up in the software. There is a log in the menu that tells you what you did with or what happened to your recorded programs (delete, cancel, ect.). All three came up as "The set-top was unable to record this program".

Interestingly, I had noticed two complaints to the Cable Board just this week along those same lines, and one of the two may have hit the nail on the head (for her situation at least). Moreover, not sure which CSI(s) you watch but if the CSI that you were trying to record was CSI:Miami on this past Monday May 14, her guess (if accurate) could help explain that one too.

"Person A" (name is actually public information since it's a correspondence to the City but I'm not too keen about placing names out on the Internet without permission) said that she had tried to record The Bachelor on Monday the 14th, and it wouldn't record; she called on Tuesday and was given the advice to reboot her box.

"Person B" is the one with the interesting hypothesis. She writes "Monday night during the storm that went through, our DVR quit recording midway through a program and didn't pick up the next scheduled recordings so apparently Navigator doesn't like storms either." And sure enough, I do remember that there was a big storm on Monday, because Monday is my cribbage night and I had to drive across Lincoln afterwards, right in the thick of it at about 8:15 p.m.

Does anyone know if a storm could affect the ability of a franchise to deliver DVR service? I'm thinking that maybe a DVR server could have temporarily shut down or lost connections or something, leaving set top boxes on the other end clueless about what the problem was so they just have to stick a generic "The set-top was unable to record this program" into the menu.

Thought I would use the two documented cases of customers facing similar problems on the same day as an excuse to send an e-mail to TWC and see if TWC has a log file on their end that they can peek at and tell me what it shows for those two customers on that date. (Of course, if the server crashed, the log files might be the first thing to go. Or the bigger problem is TWC might just decide not to admit the existence of a log file that the Cable Board might want to peek at. But hey, it can't hurt to ask, right?)

(I'm hoping I can get directly to the techies to ask my question; TWC execs have already seen the complaints anyway but I doubt that they'll have thought about trying to connect the dots.)

Interestingly, I had noticed two complaints to the Cable Board just this week along those same lines, and one of the two may have hit the nail on the head (for her situation at least). Moreover, not sure which CSI(s) you watch but if the CSI that you were trying to record was CSI:Miami on this past Monday May 14, her guess (if accurate) could help explain that one too.

"Person A" (name is actually public information since it's a correspondence to the City but I'm not too keen about placing names out on the Internet without permission) said that she had tried to record The Bachelor on Monday the 14th, and it wouldn't record; she called on Tuesday and was given the advice to reboot her box.

"Person B" is the one with the interesting hypothesis. She writes "Monday night during the storm that went through, our DVR quit recording midway through a program and didn't pick up the next scheduled recordings so apparently Navigator doesn't like storms either." And sure enough, I do remember that there was a big storm on Monday, because Monday is my cribbage night and I had to drive across Lincoln afterwards, right in the thick of it at about 8:15 p.m.

Does anyone know if a storm could affect the ability of a franchise to deliver DVR service? I'm thinking that maybe a DVR server could have temporarily shut down or lost connections or something, leaving set top boxes on the other end clueless about what the problem was so they just have to stick a generic "The set-top was unable to record this program" into the menu.

Thought I would use the two documented cases of customers facing similar problems on the same day as an excuse to send an e-mail to TWC and see if TWC has a log file on their end that they can peek at and tell me what it shows for those two customers on that date. (Of course, if the server crashed, the log files might be the first thing to go. Or the bigger problem is TWC might just decide not to admit the existence of a log file that the Cable Board might want to peek at. But hey, it can't hurt to ask, right?)

(I'm hoping I can get directly to the techies to ask my question; TWC execs have already seen the complaints anyway but I doubt that they'll have thought about trying to connect the dots.)

It was CSI:Las Vegas. Twice with that show (once about 4 weeks ago and once two weeks ago) and once with The Simpsons (last week). The signals were their and if I remember right there were no storms those nights.

I had problems with that the other night and the storm as well. But I just attributed the problems to the storm. KOLNHD (CBS) was out for a while that night any programs I tried to record during that time didn't work as there was nothing for it to record. It was back on by CSI: Miami and my box recorded it. The standard def channels were on but had problems with their signals. Like I said I can't fault TW for the problems during the storm. I think that was more on KOLNs end than anything.

It was CSI:Las Vegas. Twice with that show (once about 4 weeks ago and once two weeks ago) and once with The Simpsons (last week). The signals were their and if I remember right there were no storms those nights.

I had problems with that the other night and the storm as well. But I just attributed the problems to the storm. KOLNHD (CBS) was out for a while that night any programs I tried to record during that time didn't work as there was nothing for it to record. It was back on by CSI: Miami and my box recorded it. The standard def channels were on but had problems with their signals. Like I said I can't fault TW for the problems during the storm. I think that was more on KOLNs end than anything.

Thanks for the info, Dorny. I still might ask TWC tech support if they have info regarding those two customers, because it would be nice to know if there's a way that TWC can tell on their end if a recording was made or attempted.

But I won't consider the problem solved, because it sounds from your description like it's a "real" problem and not a storm thing. (We don't really have so many prime-time storms in Lincoln that it would cause that kind of issue on a regular basis.)

Another possible cause of trouble recording during the storm.

Any lightning strikes in the area can cause either voltage spikes or drops in your electric lines. Unless your box is on a UPS, either of these can cause a loss of recordings on any DVR.

TW just pushed another update through. 2.3.41AD

I haven't played around with it much yet.

The banner for info (what shows after you change channels) is smaller and neater. It doesn't cut off the description anymore and you can page down if it is too big to fit in the space that is there. It doesn't look much different other than size and text font, color and logos are still the same. Not having descriptions cut off is a good thing though.

I tried the find shows search feature and it popped right up without any loading time. Typically it took 3-4 seconds to load up before (for me). I might have to play with that more in the morning to see if that is better or just random. I know others have had problems with this feature taking a long time to load up on the smaller boxes.

If I see anything else new I will pass it along.

I wonder if they are going to start working on program code updates that will work on the older boxes. It had been discussed on this board that some heard the older boxes like Pioneer would not run with Navigator. But I heard a few months ago that plans remain in effect to design Navigator to work on all of the boxes. One wonders the following:

1.) How long this will take?

2.) The effects of what will happen as this is rolled out.

It looks like we are seeing slow but progressive improvements.

Jack

The 3 stages of software development:
1. get working
2. get it working right
3. get it working fast

TWC's stages of software development:

1. write some very shaky code
2. deploy it in production for pre-alpha testing
3. if the howls of outrage get large anough, promise to fix it
4. 4 months later, fix 30% of the issues for 50% of the customers
5. raise rates

5. raise rates
That happens before #1 as well.

Here is the latest Lincoln Journal Star article on the subject.

I don't know if any of this ever happens. A rebate of some sort would be nice.

http://journalstar.com/articles/2007/05/25/news/local/doc465626eea3e3c713052640.txt

Here is the latest Lincoln Journal Star article on the subject.

I don't know if any of this ever happens. A rebate of some sort would be nice.

http://journalstar.com/articles/2007/05/25/news/local/doc465626eea3e3c713052640.txt

And here's an editorial on the same subject, from this Sunday's paper.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/05/27/opinion/editorial/doc4658be91c810b180638253.txt

And here's an editorial on the same subject, from this Sunday's paper.

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/05/27/opinion/editorial/doc4658be91c810b180638253.txt

Apologies if anyone else has already posted this - I didn't see it. Here is a different editorial from the Journal Star written by one of the city's Cable Advisory Board members. He lays into Time Warner pretty hard - and I agree with him 100%.

http://journalstar.com/articles/2007/05/27/opinion/columns/doc4657752bce3b9234115628.txt

Hooray for Herb! :)

I found the comments particularly interesting!

What stinks is that Time Warner needs a new and more user friendly interface. I have SARA software on my SA8300HD and while it works, it still needs major updates and just a fresh new GUI. The Navigator Software looks nice, but its pointless if it is so buggy. I hope something gets hammered out soon where a national deployment happens. I personally love my Triple Play deal from TWC, but miss the my Dish Network STB operation and functionality. I guess time will tell.

Correct me if I am wrong,

But it is my understanding that Adelphia, Comcast, Cox, and Charter, have developed "In house" digital program guides that don't have hardly any of the problems associated with Navigator. If this is true, and other companies can develop in-house digital guides that work, why can't Time Warner? You have one of the top cable providers in the United States, and they can't even produce a new quality in-house on-screen guide?

Something is very wrong with that picture. As said above, if they could ONLY hire some outside help to work with them on fixing the bugs. They can't do it alone. And you can't shift the blame to the poor Customer Service Representatives. They can only answer the phones and read from the training scripts that TWC provides them. 6 months of HBO or Free DVR service hardly makes up for the frustration and aggravation that the new Navigator Guide has caused. NOTHING will solve the problems until outside help is brought in that is above competent and knows how to fix them.

Jack

Correct me if I am wrong,

But it is my understanding that Adelphia, Comcast, Cox, and Charter, have developed "In house" digital program guides that don't have hardly any of the problems associated with Navigator.I don't think that's true. (Does Adelphia exist anymore? I thought that they had some huge mismanagement scandal, requiring that they sell off their cable business. Locally, TWC bought off their Southern California system and are presently operating them). I can't comment on Charter, but Cox and Comcast comissioned TiVo to port a version of their UI to their deployed boxes--I believe that Comcast is very close to rolling out and that Cox should follow by early next year. TiVo will be an extra-cost subscriber option, and they're sticking to SARA and Passport as their "free" alternatives.

I don't think that's true. (Does Adelphia exist anymore? I thought that they had some huge mismanagement scandal, requiring that they sell off their cable business. Locally, TWC bought off their Southern California system and are presently operating them). I can't comment on Charter, but Cox and Comcast comissioned TiVo to port a version of their UI to their deployed boxes--I believe that Comcast is very close to rolling out and that Cox should follow by early next year. TiVo will be an extra-cost subscriber option, and they're sticking to SARA and Passport as their "free" alternatives.
I'd be delighted to have the option of "sticking" with Passport. :)

I don't think that's true. (Does Adelphia exist anymore? I thought that they had some huge mismanagement scandal, requiring that they sell off their cable business. Locally, TWC bought off their Southern California system and are presently operating them). I can't comment on Charter, but Cox and Comcast comissioned TiVo to port a version of their UI to their deployed boxes--I believe that Comcast is very close to rolling out and that Cox should follow by early next year. TiVo will be an extra-cost subscriber option, and they're sticking to SARA and Passport as their "free" alternatives.I'm not sure anyone outside Cox knows just what will be offered as their base IPG in the post-OCAP environment and that may end up being here before the Tivo port is done. Regardless, I suspect OCAP will allow more options besides SARA/Passport and Tivo. What cableco's and retailers do with that is anyone's guess. I'm kind of surprised there's been so little discussion on just what OCAP will mean for end-users. Maybe no one really knows yet. Also, in view of OCAP, I just don't understand TWCs move with Navigator. Maybe someone will enlighten me. :)

I guess that I am speculating as to whether Cox will keep SARA or not but they certainly haven't announced any intention to change. I suspect that SARA is the cheapest possible option for IPG, being the equipment manufacturer's reference design. If you can get your customers to take it, why piss away the bottom line by buying anything else? Also, if you're going to try to sell a alternative like the TiVo UI, why would you improve what you give people by default?

There have been any number of rumors of a better IPG display coming and the fact the SARA has added HD support tells me something will happen at some point. Cableco's have been told not to enable the HD part and I suspect that's because of the current IPG interface. AFAIK, they get their data from Gemstar/TV Guide and they offer I-Guide. I seriously doubt SARA will stay in it's current configuration, but who knows? As you know, even if it does, I have no real problem with that. I still believe OCAP offers future options and there will eventually be Tivo as an option as well.

The thing about Tivo is they needed cable in order to improve their finances (maybe even stay afloat), not the other way around. Cable has always been open to Tivo, just not on Tivo's past terms, but that's just my take and I don't want to get into re-hashing that again. :) I don't see any advertising of Tivo by any cableco, though that may change once it's actually available on Comcast. You seem to think there will be a big cable push to sell Tivo. I think it will be the other way around, Tivo pushing it's availability on Comcast Moto units. I guess we'll see.

(What do you mean by "HD" support? External Hard Disk Drive or "HDD" support)? As I stated, SARA is Scientific Atlanta's reference software design for their boxes. Any new features that they add to PowerTV and their applications middleware API set will be reflected by new features in SARA; it's their proof of concept for them. I worked cell phone applications; Qualcomm provides the development tool chain for that, including the base RTOS and many packages of optional APIs. They also provide their reference platform source, in which they give examples of how to use those capabilities (like support for cameras, or movie playback, etc). Like SARA, it has an extremely plain, awkward and unattractive UI, but it's not meant for deployment, it's just a platform on which Qualcomm can give their customers working examples of their OS and middleware features. I have no doubt that third-party developers who license PowerTV and SA's middleware APIs, like Aptiv Digital, have the full source code of SARA.

I fully expect to see future versions of SARA which include support for emerging technologies like OCAP, and maybe at some point they'll hire professional graphics designers to doll it up and human factors people to rearrange the GUI to be easier to use and more powerful--who knows? I personally would have a hard time drawing a business case for that.

HD as in High Definition 16:9 display of the IPG, it was added to version 1.89 with a recommendation not to use it yet.

No disagreement with everything else you said, but I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence. I really don't think SA intended to be in the IPG display business and expected 3rd parties like Pioneer/Aptiv to do that.

I know you can't seriously think SA's programmers are incapable of dolling things up with more colors and different fonts (though I can see why you might come to that conclusion :) ). I'm quite confident they can do all the others things too, IMHO that just hasn't been part of the business plan, though it clearly should have been. I think folks forget they make this stuff work across platforms, including the legacy crap cableco's like Cox still use. I once asked if Passport runs on legacy stuff like the DCT-2000 and never got an answer. My guess is RAM limitations wouldn't allow it.

I know you can't seriously think SA's programmers are incapable of dolling things up with more colors and different fonts (though I can see why you might come to that conclusion :) ). I'm quite confident they can do all the others things tooI have no doubt that they could try, I just doubt that they'd come up with anything more than marginally better. That's why consumer electronics companies (like the cell phone companies I've worked for) hire professional graphics designers and Human Factors engineers. Things with large, complex menu systems are no longer designed by programmers--it's a speciality with its own college curriculum. And if you want the art in your GUI to be eye pleasing, you hire artists. I assume that if SA ever wants to spiff up SARA, they'll add some HF engineers to their staff and comission a new graphics design. I just don't see where spiffing it up (either by hiring experts to do it or wasting money by asking their SEs to do it) will enhance their business. As trashy as it looks, it's a wildly sucessful product, deployed in millions of homes.

I don't think that's true. (Does Adelphia exist anymore? I thought that they had some huge mismanagement scandal, requiring that they sell off their cable business. Locally, TWC bought off their Southern California system and are presently operating them). I can't comment on Charter, but Cox and Comcast comissioned TiVo to port a version of their UI to their deployed boxes--I believe that Comcast is very close to rolling out and that Cox should follow by early next year. TiVo will be an extra-cost subscriber option, and they're sticking to SARA and Passport as their "free" alternatives.

Mike,

Adelphia is still around. I have a friend in Vermont that has their cable service. He thinks that all cable companies suck! hahaha!

Here is Adelphia's website if anyone's interested:

http://www.adelphia.com/home.cfm

Jack

I have no doubt that they could try, I just doubt that they'd come up with anything more than marginally better. That's why consumer electronics companies (like the cell phone companies I've worked for) hire professional graphics designers and Human Factors engineers. Things with large, complex menu systems are no longer designed by programmers--it's a speciality with its own college curriculum. And if you want the art in your GUI to be eye pleasing, you hire artists. I assume that if SA ever wants to spiff up SARA, they'll add some HF engineers to their staff and comission a new graphics design. I just don't see where spiffing it up (either by hiring experts to do it or wasting money by asking their SEs to do it) will enhance their business. As trashy as it looks, it's a wildly sucessful product, deployed in millions of homes.Given that rationale, you are probably right. ;)

Cox and Comcast comissioned TiVo to port a version of their UI to their deployed boxes--I believe that Comcast is very close to rolling out and that Cox should follow by early next year. TiVo will be an extra-cost subscriber option, and they're sticking to SARA and Passport as their "free" alternatives.

WOW, didn't know that! Funny, from 3 years ago I thought TiVo's best move was exactly this, get out of the hardware and head end business and license the software.

So their plan is a free basic UI and an extra cost UI? VERY curious if you've heard any possible pricing...

I'd be delighted to have the option of "sticking" with Passport. :)

ONLY if they fix the trick play bug. BUT, being ever cynical, they'd leave enough bugs in Passport to convince (force) users to spend extra money for a fully functioning IPG.

I also suspect they CAN do this... I think one of the "trail" Navigator locations had it downloaded only to non DVR boxes (there were folks who had DVR and non DVR boxes, same household and had Nav. on the non-DVR and Passport on the DVR).

Now assume trick play is fixed. At that point, I see the difference between that and TiVo to be not worth more than a buck extra per month...

I wonder what prompted TWC to not move to the same model: basic SARA reference design, or TIVO/PASSPORT Cadillac version.

If SARA is a [exemplar / reference O/S-Application design], should it not come free with the equipment? And be updated to ensure the equipment works with all the new standards/tech? I wonder when the software support agreement runs out...

Or when it ran out on the head-end servers...

Could the biggest feature of Navigator to TWC be not in the STB, but in the head-end server software or capability to work with different head-end configurations? (capability, not necessarily current execution...).


v/r,
C-F

WOW, didn't know that! Funny, from 3 years ago I thought TiVo's best move was exactly this, get out of the hardware and head end business and license the software.

So their plan is a free basic UI and an extra cost UI? VERY curious if you've heard any possible pricing...Jeez, RG, where ya' been? The Comcast and Cox TiVo deals have been all the scuttlebutt for the past couple of years. I have a friend who works on firmware for TiVo's dread advertising features for the past year and some. I spoke to him recently and he'd been on a death march to meet the deadline for the final or near final or customer-beta release of the Comcast version for Moto boxes.

I'm not sure what Cox is planning, but the word is that on Comcast it'll be available for an additional $5/month. For long time TiVo users who can't justify the expense of the Series 3, that's nothing.

I'm not sure what Comcast is using as a base alternative IPG. They seem to be using Gemstar's i-Guide (http://www.i-guide.tv/) in at least some markets (beware--the demo links on that page open a new full-screen window with voice narration). There's an AVS Forum thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=464986) discussing it.

If SARA is a [exemplar / reference O/S-Application design], should it not come free with the equipment? And be updated to ensure the equipment works with all the new standards/tech? I wonder when the software support agreement runs out...I suspect that it comes free with PowerTV and the middleware for development purposes (it's one huge source code example), but actually deploying it might involve further licensing.

Correct me if I am wrong,

But it is my understanding that Adelphia, Comcast, Cox, and Charter, have developed "In house" digital program guides that don't have hardly any of the problems associated with Navigator.

Not all of them have their own program guides. And those who do they actually subcontract work out to software professionals in the program guide industry (TV Guide, Aptiv).

Time Warner Cable tried to re-invent the wheel but they're not software professionals and apparently have no concept of what a QC dept is. They were hoping Lincoln will be their QC Dept or rather "lab rats".

I have not seen this. Looks like one of the main people responsible for getting Navigator going? http://www.wict.org/WICT/Education/Programs/BMLI/ClassXV/Bio_Egan.htm

And another key player on the same site: http://www.wict.org/WICT/Education/Programs/BMLI/ClassXIV/Bio_Hawkins.htm

And another key player on the same site: http://www.wict.org/WICT/Education/Programs/BMLI/ClassXIV/Bio_Hawkins.htm
From this link I picked up this key phrase:
this navigator became the first OCAP application to successfully launch on a US cable system to a customer trial base.

Successfully Launch ?????????????????

Customer Trial Base !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There you have it Lincoln Cable Board - TW PR dept does admit to it being a trial (and they claim it was successful!).

From this link I picked up this key phrase:


Successfully Launch ?????????????????

Customer Trial Base !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There you have it Lincoln Cable Board - TW PR dept does admit to it being a trial (and they claim it was successful!).

"Ms. Hawkins became a pioneer in the OpenCable initiative in December 2005 when an early release of this navigator became the first OCAP application to successfully launch on a US cable system to a customer trial base."

The Lincoln launch was apparently a mess, but I didn't think it went back to 2005, did it? I think they were really talking about a previous launch in 2005, at some undisclosed location, rather than Lincoln. I wonder where that one was, or what the customer reaction was.

vicw: I see your point - but I suspect that some writer merged her earlier activities in specifying OCAP (which would have been in Dec 2005 - OCAP was announced in Jan 2006) with the Lincoln Launch.

BUT: If it was successful in 2005, what would they call the Lincoln mess? If they could do it right in 2005, why can't they do it right in 2007?

All I can conclude is that the writer screwed it up (just like TW has screwed the launch up).

vicw: I see your point - but I suspect that some writer merged her earlier activities in specifying OCAP (which would have been in Dec 2005 - OCAP was announced in Jan 2006) with the Lincoln Launch.

BUT: If it was successful in 2005, what would they call the Lincoln mess? If they could do it right in 2005, why can't they do it right in 2007?

All I can conclude is that the writer screwed it up (just like TW has screwed the launch up).

I think you may be right. The writer may well have just misassembled a bunch of factoids together, out of context. It's hard to imagine that they could have made any kind of prior successful launch that would have not been noticed at the time, and not subsequently bragged about by TWC in a more public way.

Or an editor was a bit heavy handed with the delete key!

I'm not sure what Cox is planning, but the word is that on Comcast it'll be available for an additional $5/month. For long time TiVo users who can't justify the expense of the Series 3, that's nothing.I can't imagine anyone who uses a DVR the way many of us do not being able to justify another $5/mo, including me. The only caveat is that the port include most of the features that were recently posted in one of these threads, including search capabilities and the Wishlist. Am I right to assume the Comcast IPG data will be used and not Tivo's data?

I can't imagine anyone who uses a DVR the way many of us do not being able to justify another $5/mo, including me. The only caveat is that the port include most of the features that were recently posted in one of these threads, including search capabilities and the Wishlist. Am I right to assume the Comcast IPG data will be used and not Tivo's data?I beg to differ - I came from the VCR world and am quite happy with the way that SARA works. I would not pay one cent more for TiVo like features (but that's me). Further, from all that I have read, I do prefer SARA to Passport as SARA seems to make greater use of the hardware.

Bottom Line: I'm happy that SARA is last on the conversion to Navigator list.

Not to seem wishy-washy, but I like SARA too and have stated so many times. But it would be worth $5/mo to have access to TitanTV-type capability without needing my notebook, etc. Of course, I believe there will be other options on or before the timethe Tivo port actually gets to SA boxes here with Cox, so I could afford to be gracious. :)

I do have a lot of Wishlist-type entries on TitanTV and 14 days data is nice. You did read my caveat, right? I think that will give me plenty of reason to opt out at the time. If all I get is a Passport/Tivo look without features I want, then I'll stick with SARA too. I really don't think the port is going to live up to expectations, but I also won't mind being surprised. If nothing else, it will put pressure on SA to improve SARA and I never rush to jump ship anyway.

vicw: I see your point - but I suspect that some writer merged her earlier activities in specifying OCAP (which would have been in Dec 2005 - OCAP was announced in Jan 2006) with the Lincoln Launch.

BUT: If it was successful in 2005, what would they call the Lincoln mess? If they could do it right in 2005, why can't they do it right in 2007?

All I can conclude is that the writer screwed it up (just like TW has screwed the launch up).

Actually, in my wandering search for information about the Navigator (as a member of the Lincoln Cable Board) I'd come across Ms. Hawkins before; in fact had seen her bio, though I don't recall having come across Ms. Egan yet.

Ms. Hawkins' name is mentioned in this article from 2003:

http://www.cable360.net/cableworld/video/16382.html

as one of the players in "Mystro TV," a project that was apparently put together in 2003-2004 and rolled out in Green Bay sometime around late 2004 or early 2005. The project quickly crashed & burned (for reasons that apparently are unrelated to the interactive program guide that was being used, though trust me - I've dug deep, trying to find any indication of how close that guide was to the Navigator.)

The crash apparently led to the booting of Jim Chiddix (http://www.jimchiddix.com) from Time Warner (Chiddix then joined OpenTV and later made a sweetheart deal with TWC; OpenTV has subsequently been bought by the Swiss Kudelski Group, and the Group has apparently turned Mr. Chiddix out on the streets once again. But as far as I know OpenTV still has the sweetheart deal with TWC, and is still using the name OpenTV.)

So anyway, yeah, I think Green Bay was the (successful?) trial test market mentioned in the article. However, I'd come across the Mystro article early on (thanks to someone in public testimony mentioning that they got sick of watching the word "Mystro" every time their machine rebooted, and thanks to TWC's decision to use the very Google-able phrase "Mystro TV" for their top secret project), so when the Cable Board was asked to submit questions to TWC about the Navigator, I asked the following question (similar in spirit to question in second paragraph of DaveHancock's post quoted above):

"Why do you think that the Navigator stands a chance of getting fixed anytime soon, given that it's apparently been in existence since October 2003 and still has the kinks that we're seeing today?"

To which TWC responded:

"This version of Navigator has not been existence since October of 2003" and then refers the reader to a separate chronology which shows product development in 2003-2004, completion of "Navigator V1" by First Quarter 2005, "EOL Navigator V1" in Second Quarter 2005 followed that same quarter by the start of "Navigator V2" which eventually turns into what Lincoln is using. (Interesting that their chronology thinks that there've only been TWO versions of Navigator; heck, I could swear that we've had THREE versions just this month!)

So there ya have it folks: The "successful launch" mentioned in the Hawkins bio was apparently the launch of "Navigator Version 1" in Green Bay, then TWC "fixed" it and gave us the highly buggy "Navigator Version 2." (Either that, or maybe the bios are a little thick on hype and thin on facts. Hmmm...)

Following up on my previous post, for anyone interested in the historical underpinnings of the Mystro - Navigator connection, here are a couple of links that you could use as a start:

This one discusses a variety of IPGs, and is not too detailed on TWC's guide, but it does explicitly makes the connection between the Mystro TV project in Green Bay and the Navigator (though from the publication date I'm sure the TWC people would tell me that it's talking about "Navigator V1" instead of the new and improved "Navigator V2"):

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA417949.html

This one gets into more detail about the Mystro TV in general, but doesn't really mention the program guide directly:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA330389.html

There's a lot more information out there; search Google for things like "MystroTV" and "Chiddix" and "Navigator".

I can't imagine anyone who uses a DVR the way many of us do not being able to justify another $5/mo, including me. The only caveat is that the port include most of the features that were recently posted in one of these threads, including search capabilities and the Wishlist. Am I right to assume the Comcast IPG data will be used and not Tivo's data?I thought that TiVo was using Tribune Media's guide data, but it appears that in '03 TiVo and Gemstar settled suites against each other in part by TiVo switching to Gemstar's content. I think that most of the guide data in cable provider IPGs comes from Gemstar, as does the non-interactive TV Guide Channel that they all feature. TiVo gives its users access to much more of that data than is exposed in any of those IPGs (that I've used). You can ask for additional info on any listing and get a long list of series regular cast, episode guest stars, director, producers, etc.

TiVo has a built-in fan base of people who'd been using their SD analog over-the-air/cable models and their DirecTV models. Many of these people have had to suffer the pain of using far less well supported IPGs of vastly inferior design as foist on them by their cable companies just to be able to timeshift HDTV. TiVo introduced the Series 3, but many who were using and loving $150 SD TiVo's can't make that leap to a $600 initial expense plus service fees, but they can all easily pay $5 more a month to bring their beloved TiVo interface to the equipment they're already using. Many have always been curious about TiVo but with no inexpensive way to try one--now they have one. We'll see, but I think that the service will sell reasonably well.

I have no way of checking it out, but my friend on TiVo's development staff thinks that it came out well. I'll see whether I can pick his mind for a few details. He's very serious about his NDA, though.

TiVo has a great number of features and they add more all the time. There's a genre/subgenre filter for the interactive guide which, when activated, visually emphasizes programming in the guide which matches that genre and (optional) subgenre and whittles the list of displayed channels down to those which have current and upcoming content matching the filter ("HD" is a main-genre, so you can reduce the guide down to channels with current or upcoming high-definition content). They recently added a very interesting thing called "Universal Swivel Search". When you access swivel search from the options of a program entry it brings up a two-column list with items on the left-hand side like the cast list; select one of those items and it will give you a list of upcoming things in the guide involving that actor or director or whatever, and a list of things available for download from Amazon (for a price). (I doubt that the Amazon download thing is going to be in the cable-providers' version, though). It's called "swivel search" because if you select one of the matched programs it'll give you the same search info for it. I don't know if elaborate features like that will make it into the cable providers' version at all.

Jeez, RG, where ya' been?

Probably paying more attention to TW than Comcrap or Crux as TW is my ONLY option. AND generally not paying that close attention to TiVo up until the 3 as I had no interest whatsoever in the 2. AND not that much since the 3 as the cost benefit analysis I found tilted about 250% against TiVo.

Michael,

I remember reading about Tivo settling with Gemstar, but I didn't realize that led to Tivo now using the same database as many cableco's, that's interesting and bodes well for the tivo port IMHO.

No argument about the fanbase and as I've already dsaid $5/mo certainly seems worth it. I've seen estimates though that run to $10, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the final number turns out to be.

I can also appreciate you friend sticking to his NDA and I hope he'd continue to do so, none of this is worth getting into trouble over, we will know soon enough.

Thanks for the info (and staying civil :) ).

......the cost benefit analysis I found tilted about 250% against TiVo.Well, IMHO any upfront cost is a sunk cost that will never be recovered, so I wouldn't consider it in any analysis past the simple desire to want the S3 or not. Once that decision is made, the analysis shifts to monthly fees. There it seems to me the S3 plus cabelcards plus Tivo fees comes out to about the same as the cableco DVR plus fees with quite a bit more functionality thrown in. Of course, the jury is still out on SDV, VOD, etc., and that makes me think it is still a tad too early to buy into the S3 (for me anyway) unless you don't care about amortization of costs and will be able to afford to replace it with the next version that will handle SVD and newer cablecards that support VOD, etc. Between my 8300 with SARA, TitanTV, and HDTVMagazine, I manage just fine and there is no second-guessing.

FYI, my financial analysis had the capital cost amortised, as is properly should be. Eliminating it as a "sunk" cost is accounting slight of hand and only used when trying to obscure the analysis. Eliminating it is simply incorrect in any kind of fiscal analysis. Besides, what you pay to "rent" the DVR from the cable company sure as hell includes hardware amortization factored in! I trust you realized my "250%" was an exaggeration for effect???

Not only that, but I used a 3 year cycle... which is a fairly standard (current) way most all businesses account for their capital costs for technology. AND I go back far enough to the times when such expenses were done on a 10 year depreciation cycles (I've been a "manager of budget" for 25+ years as a department head and have had to live with some of those old 10 year cycles for equipment that was long, long gone).

Plus did you use the 3 year locked in contract with a $200 cancellation fee for the TiVo cost? Right there you are not close to comparing apples and oranges. But even accepting that, the cost sees to drop to about 9 bucks per month. Add the cost of the cable cards and you're probably around 12 bucks or so.

Look, I am VERY familiar with such machinations to personally justify what one decides. I do it all the time, it's quite a natural thing to do. I DO understand how you arrive at your conclusions, I'm sure there decisions I make that are not based on a proper analysis, but sure as hell DO make me feel slightly better about the choices I make.

The REALLY funny part (to me) is that I always thought I could never set up something on my Passport 8300 that is easily done on a TiVo, setting up to record a particular directors movies when they arrive on the schedule. I thought TiVo had that al over the 8300/Passport, until I found out that one COULD do something like that (months ago I missed a Janis documentary that I wanted to see, so I set it up on my 8300 and just this week, it popped up in my list of scheduled recordings.

In any case, I'm reading about the deal between TiVo and Comcast recently. THIS is a very interesting development (I've thought from day one their best move was to deal with their stuff by license), although limited to a cable outfit I'll never see (the chances of me moving out of my area is nil). Nobody seem to know for sure, BUT paying an additional could of bucks a month for a TiVo over an 8300 is a MUCH better prospect from the consumer perspective. Frankly, I still think TWC would be better overall to have gone THAT route than the whole Navigator thing.

Riverside_Guy, we discussed this in the SA8000/8300HD w/Passport thread (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9699024&&#post9699024)). Unless your cost for leasing the DVR is especially low or your local cost for leasing CableCARDs is especially high, %250 is a fairly gross overestimation. Amortizing the cost of purchase and the 3-year-service contract over 36 months, I'm paying 188% of what I'd pay for a lease cable DVR. We're not comparing apples-to-apples--the TiVo S3 has 56% more storage built in than the SA8300 and a host of networked media-center capabilities, with more added all the time. After 3 years you can continue to use the TiVo, at a sudden reduction of $16.66 a month, making it a few dollars cheaper to use than the leased cable DVR.

Guys,

I think that the Passport days may be shrinking. Here in Milwaukee, when TWC shows the "All The Best" commercials, whenever they show TMC's DVR Program Guide, it's Navigator. Does that mean that if Milwaukee customers upgrade to DVR service, that they will now automatically get Navigator? (I am a non-DVR subscriber. If that means I can keep Passport longer, than I will NEVER get a DVR!)

Jack

R_G,

I fully understand "proper" amortization, but many folks either decide the sunk cost is worth it or it isn't. It's not any different than buying a DVD Player or VCR. The only thing a lot of folks compare is DVD rental costs vs movie channel/POV costs, etc. They rarely consider the sunk cost of the player, it is simply a part of doing business just like the TV and AVR.

Don't get me wrong, I consider the sunk cost and that's why I will probably never buy an S3. But the day should be coming when DVRs will be just like VCRs, get them at your local BB/CC,and that's when the sunk cost begins to be a non-issue.

Someone posted a link to some pictures of the Comcast TiVo GUI from CES in another forum; I hadn't seen them before--here's (http://www.tivolovers.com/Photos/CES2007/original-index.html) a link to a set (it takes a while for all the thumbnails to pop up). Distinctly different in many ways to the S3 GUI--I like the video inset, which TiVo doesn't use at all.

I like the video inset, which TiVo doesn't use at all.You mean when you are in the Guide, setting up schedules, wishlists, etc., you can't see what's currently being broadcast?

You mean when you are in the Guide, setting up schedules, wishlists, etc., you can't see what's currently being broadcast?You can when you're in the guide--not in any other environment. TiVo's philosophy is that it's a DVR--you can alway rewind to what was happening on the tuners before you went into a menu. Believe me, having an inset to view while I choose a recording to play isn't something that I sorely missed, but I don't think that it hurts.

You can when you're in the guide--not in any other environment. TiVo's philosophy is that it's a DVR--you can alway rewind to what was happening on the tuners before you went into a menu. Believe me, having an inset to view while I choose a recording to play isn't something that I sorely missed, but I don't think that it hurts.No need to try to covince me there is a philosophy behind it, I was just curious. With all the flak I take about Tivo, I just have a hard time believing any DVR has something that Tivo doesn't. :)

With all the flak I take about Tivo, I just have a hard time believing any DVR has something that Tivo doesn't. :)How about interactive capability with the cable system? SDV anyone?

Dave, you surprise me. :confused:

I was being semi-sarcastic and trying not to upset anyone. Lord knows we've debated Tivo vs all others to death and I really don't want to start those wars again. No need to worry about me, I'm still happy with what I have and my $600 is still in the bank. Were I vindictive, I'd be anxiously waiting the first complaint about SDV from an S3 owner, but I truly hope that doesn't adversely impact any user, S3 or otherwise. Must be geting sappy in my old age. :)

Wow, great post!

edit: sorry, working remotely from a Pocket PC on a beach in Tulum and didn't realize the OP was not quoted; this is a reply to michaelscott.

Riverside_Guy, we discussed this in the SA8000/8300HD w/Passport thread (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9699024&&#post9699024)). Unless your cost for leasing the DVR is especially low or your local cost for leasing CableCARDs is especially high, %250 is a fairly gross overestimation. Amortizing the cost of purchase and the 3-year-service contract over 36 months, I'm paying 188% of what I'd pay for a lease cable DVR. We're not comparing apples-to-apples--the TiVo S3 has 56% more storage built in than the SA8300 and a host of networked media-center capabilities, with more added all the time. After 3 years you can continue to use the TiVo, at a sudden reduction of $16.66 a month, making it a few dollars cheaper to use than the leased cable DVR.

Oh, I thought it was another forum I made the "250% more" crack. I saw some took it literally and I 100% posted and explained I was exaggerating for emphasis.

Look, I respect your opinion and absolutely think that you can use whatever argument to arrive at a conclusion, but I'm only trying to present another very valid way of making a financial judgement. As far as I can tell, I'm probably paying more for my "rented" service than many others do, still when I crunch the numbers, it's clear the conclusion.

This is TWC Navigator forum not a TIVO debate forum. Can we get back on topic?Excuse us. Feel free to make a comment on the original topic.

For those in Lincoln who were considering switching to a TiVo Series 3, don't. It appears that, despite the abundance of bandwidth (according to TWC Nebraska support), they are now testing SDV with the new Navigator software. The result? The addition of ESPN2 HD is in SDV. There may be others, and they will likely switch more to SDV. One thing is for sure, TWC Nebraska is finding as many ways as possible to upset their customers.

I will be canceling my cable subscription at the end of the month.

Question-That anyone useing navigator dvr software can anwser please>Does Navigator have the record to vcr option that my Sara 1.89 has?I use it to archive my recordings and it is a feature i hope they keep(or add).If anone would let me know it would be reatly appreciated.

Question-That anyone useing navigator dvr software can anwser please>Does Navigator have the record to vcr option that my Sara 1.89 has?I use it to archive my recordings and it is a feature i hope they keep(or add).If anone would let me know it would be reatly appreciated.

I have Navigator and would let you know, but I'm not quite sure what "record to VCR" is. Could you explain what it does?

I had a menu option on my ReplayTV where it would list the show with a countdown timer and then play it so that you could archive using your VCR, but I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're talking about.

I have Navigator and would let you know, but I'm not quite sure what "record to VCR" is. Could you explain what it does?

I had a menu option on my ReplayTV where it would list the show with a countdown timer and then play it so that you could archive using your VCR, but I'm not sure if this is the kind of thing you're talking about."Record to VCR" (really "Copy to VCR") is used to copy a program from the DVR to a VCR in the background. You can still use the DVR to watch other programs. Only the program you selected will be recorded on the VCR. You can display menus and select command actions and they won't be recorded.

"Record to VCR" (really "Copy to VCR") is used to copy a program from the DVR to a VCR in the background. You can still use the DVR to watch other programs. Only the program you selected will be recorded on the VCR. You can display menus and select command actions and they won't be recorded.

I'm pretty sure Navigator doesn't have anything like that, unfortunately.

Does anybody in Lincoln know if the eSATA interface is enabled on Navigator?

Has Navigator added keyword seach yet?It needs keyword search and copy to vcr added as new features if it does not have them.SARA 1.89.17.1 here.

SOME QUESTIONS:

1.) How much of a say do the Presidents of the local divisions of TWC have regarding this roll-out of Navigator? Could they look at other divisions, such as the mess in Lincoln Nebraska and say, "We don't want this." Can they delay the roll-out to their own divisions and if so for how long?

2.) Is this really an experimental guide, or is it going to be rolled out to all TWC divisions throughout the country?

3.) Also, keep us posted on the older boxes that are believed not to work with Navigator. Will the accounts and Passports of these boxes remain grandfather claused until they die out and have to be swapped, or does TWC still plan to modify Navigator to work on the older boxes? (My local office says yes, Navigator will be rolled out to all boxes eventually.) But what about other jurisdictions?

Jack

A friendof mine said a source he has at out local TWC office is that Navigator is to have a national launch in July or August.

A friendof mine said a source he has at out local TWC office is that Navigator is to have a national launch in July or August.
That ought to be interesting!

A friend of mine said a source he has at out local TWC office is that Navigator is to have a national launch in July or August.

Remember the months July and August guys!

We will mark these on our calenders to commemorate a national tragedy! "Presenting, the NATIONAL LAUNCH OF TWC NAVIGATOR!"

LOOK OUT WORLD!!!! NAVIGATOR'S COMING!!!!

"Lions and Tigers and Navigator, Oh My!"

Jack

A friendof mine said a source he has at out local TWC office is that Navigator is to have a national launch in July or August.

So mid summer is when I should start seriously considering direct tv? I guess thats good if its mid summer, no new shows to get screwed up yet.

Hopefully Verizon Fios TV will be available in Staten Island around that time, so I won't have to suffer the horror of Navigator. :)

A friendof mine said a source he has at out local TWC office is that Navigator is to have a national launch in July or August.

Most of the nation got letters at least a couple months ago saying that was happening this summer. But, it has been very quiet for a while (even on the TWC websites). I suspect an unannounced delay in implementation.

Dan

As i stated a very good friend of mine has a relative working at Time Warner.Am not sure how accurate source is but has been very accuate in the past.Understand rest of passport users get Navigator in July then Sara rollout starts in August.As a side note I understand several ex passport employees have been hired andthey are the ones fixingNavigator.Just a heads up on news i have heard.

Well, if they get Navigator working properly then I'm all for it. If everyone has to suffer through what Lincoln did, then they can keep it. If they were smart then they did bring in outside help to fix the issues. Personally, I'm looking forward to a better interface than the SARA, but NOT at the expense of reliability and functionality. The other thing I hope the work out is support for eSATA drives (like the WD Books) so everything is Plug and Play. They need a way for customers to have a better storage capacity. I guess we will see. Here in Central New York we still have SARA.

... The other thing I hope the work out is support for eSATA drives (like the WD Books) so everything is Plug and Play. They need a way for customers to have a better storage capacity. I guess we will see. Here in Central New York we still have SARA.

I agree. Wouldn't it be great if some kind soul in Lincoln, on Navigator, could check his/her 8300 diagnostic, and let us know if the esata interface is enabled?

I agree. Wouldn't it be great if some kind soul in Lincoln, on Navigator, could check his/her 8300 diagnostic, and let us know if the esata interface is enabled?

I just scrolled through the 28 diagnostic pages and didn't see anything that says esata. If you tell me what to look for, I'd be happy to help you.

I just scrolled through the 28 diagnostic pages and didn't see anything that says esata. If you tell me what to look for, I'd be happy to help you.

Thanks much for taking the time to scroll through all those pages. I haven't seen the Navigator-based diagnostics, so I'm not sure how it is given there - probably SATA, rather than esata. The Diags I see have a page titled SATA, with content indicating SATA Status: authorized. I should have checked my own before creating the entry.

I think it would be very enlightening to those of us currently usng external SATA drives to know whether Navigator has the SATA interface authorized, even though that would fall short of demonstrating that it will support eSATA drive operation. We are in fear of losing the ability to enjoy enhanced DVR recording space if Navigator disables the interface.

Thanks much for taking the time to scroll through all those pages. I haven't seen the Navigaor-based diagnostics, so I'm not sure how it is given there - probably SATA, rather than esata. The Diags I see have a page titled SATA, with content indicating SATA Status: authorized. I should have checked my own before creating the entry.

I think it would be very enlightening to those of us currently usng external SATA drives to know whether Navigator has the SATA interface authorized, even though that would fall short of demonstrating that it will support eSATA drive operation. We are in fear of losing the ability to enjoy enhanced DVR recording space if Navigator disables the interface.

I'll take another look tomorrow just to be sure I didn't overlook it. I seem to recall seeing an entry for SATA drives when we had Passport, but I've been unable to locate a similar listing in Navigator. Perhaps someone else with Navigator can look too in case I'm missing it.

A friendof mine said a source he has at out local TWC office is that Navigator is to have a national launch in July or August.

Just a wild guess, but I have a thought that the announcement will probably be right after their "Home to the Future" tour. (If you have Shockwave Flash installed, go to http://hometothefuture.com/ , click the "Skip" at the bottom of the page to skip the boring intro, and click the "Track the Tour" button. Warning: don't click "Honk The Horn" unless you're in the privacy of your own home!)

Why do I think this? Partly because there's a clear link in a Samsung press release about the tour:
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070119_0000313783

(Second paragraph contains a phrase very similar to the title of the TWC press release at

http://www.timewarner.com/corp/print/0,20858,1575877,00.html

and third paragraph refers to the Navigator; interesting that the TWC press release doesn't say anything about the Navigator.)

Also if you look at the tour itinerary, it goes through several cities that have come to my attention while looking at the history of the Navigator, not just Kansas City and Milwaukee, but early on I'd found references to the Navigator on TWC sites from Desert Cities and San Diego, as well as Raleigh/Durham/Fayetteville which admittedly isn't Charlotte but can't be that far away. No clue as to whether these other three places have any subscribers that actually use the Navigator (and our Lincoln TWC people never mention any cities but KC and Milwaukee) but it doesn't really make sense to me that the TWC sites in those places would feature information about the Navigator unless there were some subscribers.

And if TWC were going to announce a "hot" new product nationwide, what better way to do it than to take a tour of the country, showing off the stuff in a very controlled environment, maybe collect e-mail addresses of people who want to be kept in the loop about where they can get more information, then hit 'em with a followup e-mail at the end of the tour where they can sign up and get two or three free months of digital service with this hot new Navigator product.

Oh, and one other thing - if I were doing such a tour, I'd be sure and skip Lincoln, because those rowdy folks there don't always stand in line and salute when TWC passes by.

I admit to being something of a conspiracy theory buff, guess we'll see what happens at tour's end later this summer.

I just scrolled through the 28 diagnostic pages and didn't see anything that says esata. If you tell me what to look for, I'd be happy to help you.I'm not sure that you will see anything that you can identify with the ability to handle an external drive. Earlier versions of SARA (where the capability showed up in the first place) did not, and the current version does not, explicitly state that the external drive is enabled (the current version does show the size of an attached drive - earlier versions did not do that, they simply included the drive in the total HD capability.

So, there probably are no clues if the external drive WILL work, in the Navigator diagnostics.

I'll take another look tomorrow just to be sure I didn't overlook it. I seem to recall seeing an entry for SATA drives when we had Passport, but I've been unable to locate a similar listing in Navigator. Perhaps someone else with Navigator can look too in case I'm missing it.

FYI - on SARA there is nothing about eSATA, but there is a page with the attached drives listed, one column for primary and one for secondary.

I know this would be a pain... But if you are up for it photos of the Navigator diags pages would be greatly appreciated!

xnappo

I'm not sure that you will see anything that you can identify with the ability to handle an external drive. Earlier versions of SARA (where the capability showed up in the first place) did not, and the current version does not, explicitly state that the external drive is enabled (the current version does show the size of an attached drive - earlier versions did not do that, they simply included the drive in the total HD capability.

So, there probably are no clues if the external drive WILL work, in the Navigator diagnostics.

I suspect that the diagnostics being clear about an external drive is a Passport thing. We saw no indication in the previous software release, then with the last release, we got clear indication it was (which mostly means it may work with some drives but not others) enabled.

I could swear someone w/Navigator said they HAD used an external drive. We HAVE seen TWC execs actually say their intention is to have it enabled in Navigator (which means not that much).

Still, as with almost ALL TWC things, the ONLY way to know is for someone to try to use one. As a Passporter, I'm mostly interested in the elimination of the famous trick play bug.

I could swear someone w/Navigator said they HAD used an external drive. Me too, but given this forum's lousy search function, the only way is to go through the entire External Drive Thread.

Me too, but given this forum's lousy search function, the only way is to go through the entire External Drive Thread.

Yep... Here is the post saying it doesn't work at all:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10057800&&#post10057800

And one that has it working:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9279739&&#post9279739

xnappo

Me too, but given this forum's lousy search function, the only way is to go through the entire External Drive Thread.This forum's search function is not very useful. It doesn't find long words. I haven't figured out how many letters that is. Some example words it doesn't find are "Associated" or "different". To work around this problem, I use Google with keyword site:www.avsforum.com and include enough of the thread name in quotes to make it unique and the words I want it to search for. The Google results show the page the post is in so I use the browser find function to find the correct post. This is a pain but it is better than reading the entire thread.

Thanks to the BEST Search Function: XNAPPO ;)

Thanks - but I cheated as I had posted that message before, and so could include xnappo in my google search. Google searches AVS much better than AVS searches AVS!

Can anyone confirm if Navigator fixes any recording time issues? It seems that my SARA enabled DVR constantly cuts off the end of shows and it gets quite annoying! Why can't Time Warner add a "buffer" of say 2-3 minutes to each show. It could be a user selectable menu item. The user could set the buffer time and what recordings to use it on. For example, I record The Factor every night and don't need a buffer for that because it ends on time or cuts right after the Email segment. However, some series type shows have a habit of cutting before the previews and some others cut quite a bit off the end. Hogan Knows Best is notorious for starting late and ending early. I understand alot of this has to do with the times in the guide data, but a buffer would ensure the user not miss anything. The work around Time Warner gave me was to set a manual recording and specify time each and every week which almost defeats the convenience of having the DVR to begin with. Anyone else think this might be a cool feature to have?

Can anyone confirm if Navigator fixes any recording time issues? It seems that my SARA enabled DVR constantly cuts off the end of shows and it gets quite annoying! Why can't Time Warner add a "buffer" of say 2-3 minutes to each show. It could be a user selectable menu item. The user could set the buffer time and what recordings to use it on. For example, I record The Factor every night and don't need a buffer for that because it ends on time or cuts right after the Email segment. However, some series type shows have a habit of cutting before the previews and some others cut quite a bit off the end. Hogan Knows Best is notorious for starting late and ending early. I understand alot of this has to do with the times in the guide data, but a buffer would ensure the user not miss anything. The work around Time Warner gave me was to set a manual recording and specify time each and every week which almost defeats the convenience of having the DVR to begin with. Anyone else think this might be a cool feature to have?

You can set it to record a given show an extra minute (or other increments) in the recording options for each show. Navigator is pretty much the same as Passport on that. I have had to use it on a few shows that continually would cut off too soon. As long as there isn't a recording conflict with some other shows it comes in handy.

One thing Navigator has that I don't remember Passport having (or at least not the last version we had) is that you can also schedule a show to end early. That also comes in handy with some shows that like to schedule themselves to 1 minute past the hour when there is nothing but commercials for the last 3 minutes or so. Scrubs is an example that type of show that I used this to end it early so I could record two other shows at the top of the hour.

This goes both ways for both the beginning and endings of the shows that you can adjust.

Well, I believe with the right help that Time Warner should be able to get this working properly. I think the GUI is in need of an overhaul, but not at the expense of functionality. I guess time will tell. Thanks for the reply.

Well, I believe with the right help that Time Warner should be able to get this working properly. I think the GUI is in need of an overhaul, but not at the expense of functionality. I guess time will tell. Thanks for the reply.SARA lets you alter the start/end times, but the changes won't stick for weekly or less frequent recordings, you have to alter them each week. Also, depending on which version (1.88 or 1.89) you are using, you may have to cancel scheduled recordings and reschedule them with the altered times for them to stick. Some folks have sceduled recordings for the program before or after to catch all of the program, but this only works if you are not recording something else on another channel at the same time. This is covered in the first post of the SARA Tips thread.

And, it is strictly based on the IPG data, which is all a DVR has available to tell it when to start/end. Most times it's because the local station/cablenet has chosen to start/end slightly off schedule. Sometimes it's because the IPG is incorrect. Unfortunately, there is nothing the cableco can do to change things. Sometimes contacting the local station to let them know there is a problem can get it resolved. I see this a lot on A&E, my Driving Force recording always ended a minute or so before the program actually ended, and programs like Overhaulin' on other cablenets.

Dave, Passport seems able to deal with it... I have a series recording set to start 10 minutes early and end an hour past. Works like a charm (had to, it was the new HD edition of Star Trek TOS around 2 AM Monday, given football, it's actual start varied all over the lot.

We in NYC are having major HD channel number shuffling going on later this week (a "good" thing as all HD channels will be the SD channel # with a leading 7), going to be interesting to see of my 10,000 series recordings adjust themselves automatically!

R_G,

I only mentioned SARA because that is what Ben said he was using and there are users of both in this thread. I had no doubt Passport allowed the same thing. ;)

Let us know if the restructuring makes you reschedule your 10,000 :) recordings. I suspect it might and that will be a bummer since so many are in reruns now or not even on.

Have any new features been added to NAVIGATOR since the last update?With the July launch drawing near wonder if it has gotton any more stable.With a bunch of ex PASSPORT software experts now driveing NAVIGATOR improvements we can hope.Anyone with NAVIGATOR with any information please let us know.

Have any new features been added to NAVIGATOR since the last update?With the July launch drawing near wonder if it has gotton any more stable.With a bunch of ex PASSPORT software experts now driveing NAVIGATOR improvements we can hope.Anyone with NAVIGATOR with any information please let us know.

There haven't been any updates here in Lincoln since late May.

With the July launch drawing near wonder if it has gotton any more stable.Launch date of what? The only thing that happens in July is that cable companies must (mostly) stop deploying NEW cable boxes with integrated security (in other words, they must start using boxes with cable cards).

Dave,

I think folks are tuned into a post by CrazyWoody back on June 5 stating:
As i stated a very good friend of mine has a relative working at Time Warner.Am not sure how accurate source is but has been very accuate in the past.Understand rest of passport users get Navigator in July then Sara rollout starts in August.As a side note I understand several ex passport employees have been hired andthey are the ones fixingNavigator.Just a heads up on news i have heard. I seriously doubt this is going to happen, but I guess with TWC one never knows until after the fact. :)

Dave,

I think folks are tuned into a post by CrazyWoody back on June 5 stating:
I seriously doubt this is going to happen, but I guess with TWC one never knows until after the fact. :)Thanks for pointing that out. I now do recall that statement - or rather, rumor. There is an awful lot of confusion over just what the FCC requires as of July 1. And TW has taken advantage of that to provide an excuse for their dismal performance regarding Navigator.

I've observed that in many areas that TW personnel are some of the poorest informed people in industry (seems like corporate really likes to grow mushrooms :rolleyes: ).

FWIW, TWC-San Diego is playing adverts, showing new screens for NAVIGATOR...
sounding as if it's already deployed....they also refer to website for more info....

However, I don't see it on either SA8300HD or SA3250HD (running OCAP since Feb).

================================
Refer back to discussion re "common reliance"....aka "sharing the pain of debugging OCAP":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10326245&highlight=common+reliance#post10326245
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10736100&highlight=common+reliance#post10736100

On 1July cable companies are supposed to support retail OCAP/MCARD implementations....
including "sharing the pain of debugging OCAP" with their OWN customers.....

Ideally, they would "share the pain" with an equal number of new retail
OCAP HDTV/DVR/STB customers, thereby restraining the number of affected users.

But, since NAVIGATOR is needed to search a much, much larger inventory of
OnDemand/PPV offerings and related SDV/VOD upgrades are needed for VOD
and more HD (plus other bells and whistles), we all can expect to be upgraded....

HBO/CINEMAX plans to broadcast all 26 channels in HD, beginning this September:
http://www.tvpredictions.com/twhbo061607.htm
TWC spokesman said that they plan to carry them in HD, with some of the
content available via HD OnDemand (only?).

This is only the tip of the iceberg for a greatly expanded HD OnDemand service....thanks to SDV.

On 1July cable companies are supposed to support retail OCAP/MCARD implementations....
including "sharing the pain of debugging OCAP" with their OWN customers.....I again challange you to provide a link to ANY FCC order that says anything about cable companies having to support retail OCAP/MCARD implementations on July 1, 2007, or any other specific date! They have not, to my knowledge! Yes there are lots of different proposals, broad objectives, sweeping statements, objections, comments, rebuttals, etc. - BUT NO REQUIREMENTS, other than to STOP deploying new STBs with integrated security!

How cable companies plan to deal with this mandate is another matter - but it is simply not accurate to state or imply that there has been any July 1 FCC mandate involving additional support of customer owned equipment, OCAP or any other specific solution!

Dave isn't it boxes without integrated security? (forgot to quote you!)

I guess the box will somehow provide the 2 way... but aren't there supposed to be new multi-stream cards that CAN "authorize" two tuners in the box itself?

I tell you, few are really paying attention to this, for some reason my sixth sense is sounding the klaxon. Big time.

Like I stated I am reporting only what I was told.We will see come July and August if my source was correct.However I will state that this source also told me that Navigator was to receive select deployment when this fiasco began.The source was correct on that one.I just reported it because TWC is officially giveing us no info.This leaves us to gleem information from sources and rumors.Anyone who has any more info I would be glad to hear.As a side note since i posted my source has become very closed mouth so do not know if TWC has clamped down on Navigator info.

... it is simply not accurate to state or imply that there has been any July 1 FCC mandate involving additional support of customer owned equipment, OCAP or any other specific solution!

At this point I'm actually looking forward to July 1st rolling around, because Lincoln's TWC people appear to have bought into the story that the FCC mandate for severable security is somehow going to force a nationwide rollout of the Navigator on the deadline date.

If July 2nd dawns and if there are markets out there (as I suspect there will be) that haven't yet been "Navigatored," I'd be interested in seeing a few posts to that effect, so I can pass that information on to the people who've been indicating otherwise to me.

(Of course, if the Navigator somehow does take hold everywhere by 07/01/07, I'll "forget" to bring up the subject with the aforementioned people.)

Dave isn't it boxes without integrated security? (forgot to quote you!)I said:other than to STOP deploying new STBs with integrated security!I think that's correct.

I guess the box will somehow provide the 2 way... but aren't there supposed to be new multi-stream cards that CAN "authorize" two tuners in the box itself?Yes, the new (8300HDC) cable boxes with CableCards take the M-Series cards. But, all that buys right now is using ONE CableCard, instead of two. Ultimately, these cards may have broader uses - once OCAP is fully deployed - but that AIN'T 7/1/07!

At this point I'm actually looking forward to July 1st rolling around, because Lincoln's TWC people appear to have bought into the story that the FCC mandate for severable security is somehow going to force a nationwide rollout of the Navigator on the deadline date.

If July 2nd dawns and if there are markets out there (as I suspect there will be) that haven't yet been "Navigatored," I'd be interested in seeing a few posts to that effect, so I can pass that information on to the people who've been indicating otherwise to me.

(Of course, if the Navigator somehow does take hold everywhere by 07/01/07, I'll "forget" to bring up the subject with the aforementioned people.)It's all part of TW's mis-information campaign. An attempt, to blame their failures on someone else (and who better to pick on than the FCC).

Honestly, the mandate is on integrated security. Navigator, or any other OCAP application does not address that. You may well find some cable boxes with CableCards running on Navigator, but you will also find a lot running the current software (SARA, Passport and whatever software Motorola boxes) as well.

Folks, 7/1/07 is only a couple of weeks away. You'd think there would have more deployments (more dipping the toes in the waters) if that were true.

Folks, 7/1/07 is only a couple of weeks away. You'd think there would have more deployments (more dipping the toes in the waters) if that were true.If I read the post right, I think CrazyWoody's friend just said July, not specifically July 1, for Navigator. Even so, I just don't see it happening.

Also, I read this over on HDTVoice and wondered what it's all about.
Does anyone know if the new cable boxes TW will offer on July 1st will be better than the SA 8300 HD DVR and compatible with Sony TV's? The TW Kiosk operator told me that more features will be turned on and the new boxes are from Samsung.Kind of sounds like something running Navigator?

If I read the post right, I think CrazyWoody's friend just said July, not specifically July 1, for Navigator. Even so, I just don't see it happening.

There are two July dates floating around; one is CrazyWoody's friend, the other is that at least here in Lincoln we've been told on several occasions that the July 1 FCC reg date is going to force a Navigator rollout by that date. I have no information on Woody's friend, was instead referring to the (mis)information from our Lincoln TWC people.

Regardless, there's an interesting little comment in the most recent TWC annual report,

http://www.secinfo.com/dsVsf.u1gz.htm

(section entitled "TWC may not be able to obtain necessary hardware, software and operational support", pages 40-41) which seems to a novice like me to indicate that (as of report date 2/23/07) TWC was trying (and having trouble) getting hold of STBs that would be compatible with the FCC ruling, and work with HDTV, and work with the "proprietary interactive program guide" (i.e. the Navigator). I have no idea why they wanted to throw the Navigator compatibility into that mix; obviously FCC rules are a priority, and HDTV compatibility is important for business reasons, but it looks like those two items would have kept them sufficiently busy that they would have worked at a more leisurely pace trying to get Navigator compatibility. It is a bit of legalese; I might be misinterpreting it. Full section follows for your own alaysis. (I've boldfaced the references to HDTV, severable security, and the "proprietary interactive program guide so you can see them easier.)



TWC may not be able to obtain necessary hardware, software and operational support.

TWC depends on third party suppliers and licensors to supply some of the hardware, software and operational support necessary to provide some of its services. TWC obtains these items from a limited number of vendors, some of which do not have a long operating history. Some of TWC’s hardware, software and operational support vendors represent TWC’s sole source of supply or have, either through contract or as a result of intellectual property rights, a position of some exclusivity. If demand exceeds these vendors’ capacity or if these vendors experience operating or financial difficulties, TWC’s ability to provide some services might be materially adversely affected, or the need to procure or develop alternative sources of the affected materials might delay the provision of services. These events could materially and adversely affect TWC’s ability to retain and attract subscribers, and have a material negative impact on TWC’s operations, business, financial results and financial condition. Since late 2006, TWC has noted increased demand for HDTV-capable set-top boxes. This increased demand comes at a time when TWC’s set-top box suppliers need to begin making changes in their production processes to enable them to supply cable operators with set-top boxes that use separate security. See “— Risks Related to Government Regulation — The FCC’s set-top box rules could impose significant additional costs on TWC” below. As of February 20, 2007, TWC was experiencing, and may continue to experience during the near term, difficulty in obtaining sufficient quantities of HDTV-capable set-top boxes to satisfy all consumer requests for such boxes.

A limited number of vendors of key technologies can lead to less product innovation and higher costs. For these reasons, TWC generally endeavors to establish alternative vendors for materials it consider critical, but may not be able to establish these relationships or be able to obtain required materials on favorable terms. For example, each of TWC’s systems currently purchases set-top boxes from a limited number of vendors. This is due to the fact that each of TWC’s cable systems uses one of two proprietary conditional access security schemes, which allow TWC to regulate subscriber access to some services, such as premium channels. TWC believes that the proprietary nature of these conditional access schemes makes other manufacturers reluctant to produce set-top boxes. Future innovation in set-top boxes may be restricted until these issues are resolved. In addition, TWC believes that the general lack of compatibility among set-top box operating systems has slowed the industry’s development and deployment of digital set-top box applications. TWC has developed a proprietary user interface and interactive programming guide that it expects to introduce in most of its operating areas during 2007. No assurance can be given that TWC’s proprietary interface and guide will operate correctly, will be popular with consumers or will be compatible with other products and services that TWC’s customers value.



You'll note that the last sentence in the cited section has proven to be quite accurate. :)

Also, I read this over on HDTVoice and wondered what it's all about.

Quote:
Does anyone know if the new cable boxes TW will offer on July 1st will be better than the SA 8300 HD DVR and compatible with Sony TV's? The TW Kiosk operator told me that more features will be turned on and the new boxes are from Samsung.


Kind of sounds like something running Navigator?

I'd come across the following press release from Samsung a week or so ago; I assume that it's the product that HDTVoice is talking about. I know nothing more than what's in the release.

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070119_0000313783

I'd come across the following press release from Samsung a week or so ago; I assume that it's the product that HDTVoice is talking about. I know nothing more than what's in the release.

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070119_0000313783Thanks for the link.

Coming to a cable provider near you -- maybe. The SMT-H3050 from Samsung is set-top box that is embedded with DOCCSIS 2.0 Cable Card and OCAP support for full interactivity. The box can output the video via S-Vid or HDMI and audio through an optical or dig-coax cable. There isn't a price for it yet, as the Samsung staffers don't know if this product is going to hit the retail markets yet, but they are pitching the unit to service providers. It would make sence that a person would buy this product, as this is the first box to allow a user to get all the goodies from their cable company (i.e. program guide, VOD, pay-per-view) without leasing their cable companie's equipment. Why wouldn't Samsung want to sell this item? We are sure some of you would love to kick your cable box to the road. Right?

http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/15/samsung-cedia-cable-card-2-0-hdtv-receiver-smt-h3050/

It looks like the reason TWC needs to release Digital Navigator (OCAP version) is because the Samsung set top box uses OCAP. Also, it uses Cable Cards so it meets the FCC July 1, integration ban.

Small update-Here in Greensboro we are on sara 1.89 but we had several small changes loaded into our access menu here.It seems slghtly navigator like with several sub catagorys in our access menu search screen.Also twice in the last two days a banner has come across the TV while I was watching saying Time Warner test in progress.Do not know what this means but thought it was interesting.

Samsung was one of (perhaps the) early "partner" in working with Cable Labs (and Time Warner) in developing OCAP compliant sets. I believe that they are doing beta tests (I know that is a bad word on this forum) in NYC. While NYC is not a small market, the number of OCAP compliant Samsung sets there is - so I don't know how visible these tests are to the general public.

Again, there are two separate issues here: The FCC "seperable security" mandate, which takes place 7/1/07 and the OCAP effort. Ultimately it is expected that CableCards will be replaced by the downloadable security system (DCAS) and it looks like DCAS will need the OCAP platform. But one step at a time :cool:

RE: The question of new cable boxes having enhanced features: Probably not. It's kind of difficult for them to "offer" different levels of boxes (unless they found a way to charge more). The new boxes do have some additional RAM, but the processors are the same. So the new boxes are likely to react better to OCAP than the old ones - but it would be real difficult for the cable companies to change out all the old boxes for the new - particularly as the new ones cost around $100 more (with the CableCard).

I understand TWC is focusing efforts on OCAP since they have to have that ready by 7/1/07. I have heard there have been HD box shortages due to the manufacturing switchover to OCAP hardware.Again - WRONG! There is nothing that requires OCAP to be ready by 7/1/07! NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Box shortages are due to the (ordering and) manufacturing switchover to CableCard (brought about by the FCC ban on Integrated Security.

In short: CableCard mandate IS NOT a OCAP mandate.

Sorry to be such a pain about this - but people need to understand what is true and what isn't!

Again - WRONG! There is nothing that requires OCAP to be ready by 7/1/07! NOTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Box shortages are due to the (ordering and) manufacturing switchover to CableCard (brought about by the FCC ban on Integrated Security.

In short: CableCard mandate IS NOT a OCAP mandate.

Sorry to be such a pain about this - but people need to understand what is true and what isn't!

Maybe TWC has a deal with Samsung to use this box as their non-DVR cable card box and ditch SA:
http://www.samsung.com/Products/HomeGateway/CableSettopbox/HomeGateway_CableSettopbox_SMT_H3050TWC.asp

That would require that they roll out OCAP in order to comply with the cable card mandate.

While there is no OCAP mandate, there are business factors that tie the two together to some degree.

xnappo

They only need to have the OCAP version of Navigator on 7/1/07. Because all the new boxes after that date have to be OCAP.I keep telling you - there is NO Mandate for OCAP! OCAP is not needed for CableCard and CableCard is what will effectively be needed 7/1/07.

Why don't you understand that? Is that you actually believe TW? :eek:

Here (http://www.cable360.net/ct/news/ctreports/22536.html) is an article from a dedicated cable business oriented website on the subject.

Some highlights:
Dating back to last year, separable security has been at the top of most cable operators' to-do lists. The "7/07" mandate by the Federal Communications Commission requires that cable operators no longer deploy digital set-top boxes with embedded security by the July 1 deadline.

Until downloadable conditional access (DCAS) reaches fruition, cable operators are staring at CableCards as the method of providing separable security to meet the FCC's mandate.
And:
While separable security is charting its own course thanks to the FCC mandate, its often grouped together with the CableLabs' OCAP. Along with DCAS, OCAP will eventually provide a secure, two-way platform that will allow cable operators to safely, and more cost effectively, download software and applications into OCAP-enabled set-top boxes and TV sets, which makes separable security a necessary evil for the present.

OK?

Maybe TWC has a deal with Samsung to use this box as their non-DVR cable card box and ditch SA:
http://www.samsung.com/Products/HomeGateway/CableSettopbox/HomeGateway_CableSettopbox_SMT_H3050TWC.asp

That would require that they roll out OCAP in order to comply with the cable card mandate.

While there is no OCAP mandate, there are business factors that tie the two together to some degree.

xnappoI think this hits the nail on the head and is why there is so much misinformation relative to Navigator, OCAP, and security mandates (or lack thereof). I think Dave's frustration is with TWC foisting this upon folks and blaming the FCC when the FCC is not requiring Navigator or Samsung OCAP boxes. There is nothing inherently wrong with what TWC is doing, they just need to be honest about it. :)

Well TWC is only purchasing OCAP boxes. So if the 7/1/07 ruling mandates it or not. OCAP boxes are they are buying and OCAP Navigator is the only Guide they have for those boxes.

I believe that fact to be true.Yes, the CableCard boxes (and many of the earlier ones) are OCAP capable. That does not mean that they have to run OCAP - just that they can run OCAP.

Here is the spec sheet (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) for the SA8300C/HDC. You can see under features that is clearly supports several network environments, including OCAP and SARA. I've seen other statements that Passport is supported as well (that is not a SA product so they won't make Passport statements).

There is a lot of confusion about the FCC's July 1, 2007 integration ban. About half the stories I have seen use the word "new"

July 1, 2007: Cease the Use of New Set-Top Boxes with the Security Function
The FCC requires that by July 1, 2007, all MVPDs must cease selling or leasing new set-top boxes with integrated security and non-security functions.

and the other half don't.

The "7/07" mandate by the Federal Communications Commission requires that cable operators no longer deploy digital set-top boxes with embedded security by the July 1 deadline.

The actual regulation uses the word "new." Here is the current regulation including the correct date with a link to the regulation:

§ 76.1204 Availability of equipment performing conditional access or security functions. (http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=afd34206b8a2de2643d0fbd1ddf48b0e;rgn=div5;vie w=text;node=47%3A4.0.1.1.4;idno=47;cc=ecfr#47:4.0.1.1.4.16.3 .5)

(a)(1) A multichannel video programming distributor that utilizes navigation devices to perform conditional access functions shall make available equipment that incorporates only the conditional access functions of such devices. Commencing on July 1, 2007, no multichannel video programming distributor subject to this section shall place in service new navigation devices for sale, lease, or use that perform both conditional access and other functions in a single integrated device.

Click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10104401&&#post10104401) for a discussion of the FCC's integration ban.

Can cable companies reuse STBs that have integrated security that have been returned and are still working after the July 1, 2007 integration ban?

The actual regulation uses the word "new."IMHO that's the only quote that counts.Can cable companies reuse STBs that have integrated security that have been returned and are still working after the July 1, 2007 integration ban?I know of nothing that prevents it, though I'm sure that is equally misunderstood. The keyword has always been NEW, as in no new SA8300HDs (or any other new units with integrated security) after July 1.

I don't understand why this is so hard to understand. I think a lot of it is wishful thinking by some unhappy user's hoping their units will be replaced on July 1. Add to that the rumors surrounding Navigator, OCAP, and Samsung. Does anyone seriously think TWC is capable of replacing all units currently in-use with Samsungs running OCAP Navigator on July 1?

Regardless, there's an interesting little comment in the most recent TWC annual report,

http://www.secinfo.com/dsVsf.u1gz.htm
> ...
> ...
> TWC has developed a proprietary user interface and interactive programming
> guide that it expects to introduce in most of its operating areas during 2007.
> ...



Wow, I was ROFLMAO when I read that. Such complete irony. TWC told us that the main reason they couldn't use Passport in the future was that Passport was a proprietary user interface and that made it difficult for third party suppliers and outside vendors to integrate their add-ons into the guide because it was not an open system.
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/products/cable/mystro/page_2.html

Now TWC admits that their system is proprietary also. How are we better off with Navigator?

It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

Can cable companies reuse STBs that have integrated security that have been returned and are still working after the July 1, 2007 integration ban?

Yes, I've listened in on several cable conferences where this was discussed, and this clearly is what the FCC intended and what the cable companies intend to do. Everything that I have seen indicates that these "new" (CableCard equipped) boxes will simply be incorporated into the "pool" of similarly grouped (I mean "all HD DVRs", all "SD DVRs," etc.). So the customer orders a HD DVR service, the cable company might supply a brand new SA8300HDC, or a recycled SA8300HD, or even (heavens forbid) a SA8000HD - or perhaps a new Samsung product.

Right now, things are a bit tricky for the cable companies: They want to/need to capitalize on the HD demand, yet also need to keep their books balanced in regards to investing capital in cable box inventory. They had hopes that they could get the FCC to again delay the 7/1/07 date so that a true software downloadable security (DCAS) solution would be ready. The CableCard boxes cost them better than $100 more (between extra costs on box and the CableCard itself). So they held off ordering the CC boxes as long as they could. But, they also can't legally take a new box from existing inventory and install it in a customer's premises. They have got to use the existing new boxes up by 7/1. The result will be some shortages of HD boxes over the summer.

The CableCard boxes cost them better than $100 more (between extra costs on box and the CableCard itself).

Right... So this has me wondering if the Samsung boxes are ~$100 less that the SA solution and are thus pushing Navigator rollout. Only a few more days until we find out I guess.

xnappo

Right... So this has me wondering if the Samsung boxes are ~$100 less that the SA solution and are thus pushing Navigator rollout. Only a few more days until we find out I guess.

xnappoNot one bit. The Samsung still needs a CableCard. It solves nothing!

Incidentally, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about that Samsung box and TW. It isn't clear if it is intended for consumers to purchase directly (Samsung does have the distribution channels for that) or for sale to cable companies (or both). The goal of OCAP is to standardize the interfaces so that:
1) Customers can purchase equipment that will seamlessly work with cable systems.
2) Cable companies have greater choices in equipment they buy (use Motorola boxes in SA systems, for example).
3) New market opportunities are opened for new cable services (games, targeted advertisements, etc) via the ability to add third party applications to cable boxes (both those owned by cable and those owned by customers).

Not one bit. The Samsung still needs a CableCard. It solves nothing!

Incidentally, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about that Samsung box and TW. It isn't clear if it is intended for consumers to purchase directly (Samsung does have the distribution channels for that) or for sale to cable companies (or both). The goal of OCAP is to standardize the interfaces so that:
1) Customers can purchase equipment that will seamlessly work with cable systems.
2) Cable companies have greater choices in equipment they buy (use Motorola boxes in SA systems, for example).
3) New market opportunities are opened for new cable services (games, targeted advertisements, etc) via the ability to add third party applications to cable boxes (both those owned by cable and those owned by customers).

I was just pointing out that the Samsung box, unlike the SA boxes NEEDS OCAP to function. It doesn't have a proprietary guide etc.

xnappo

Right... So this has me wondering if the Samsung boxes are ~$100 less that the SA solution and are thus pushing Navigator rollout. Only a few more days until we find out I guess.I suspect Samsung gave them a good deal to get their foot in the door and might be taking less of a markup. I've been a little miffed that all this seems to be staying out of the retail market for now, but I'm bouyed by the thought of DCAS coming as early as late next year. I still think it's stupid to invest in CC inventory if DCAS and retail units are not that far off. I sure wish there were more difinitive info on just how all this is going to shake out, but I guess no one really knows at this point, other than conjecture and wishful thinking.

I sure wish there were more difinitive info on just how all this is going to shake out, but I guess no one really knows at this point, other than conjecture and wishful thinking.

Yep - there used to be three knowledgeable Time Warner people I had access to online. They all seem to have fallen off the face of the earth.

xnappo

Yep - there used to be three knowledgeable Time Warner people I had access to online. They all seem to have fallen off the face of the earth.

xnappoMaybe they were told to "shut up"? :cool:

I said:I think that's correct.

Yes, the new (8300HDC) cable boxes with CableCards take the M-Series cards. But, all that buys right now is using ONE CableCard, instead of two. Ultimately, these cards may have broader uses - once OCAP is fully deployed - but that AIN'T 7/1/07!

Oooops, looks like I had a brain fart, yes you are 100% correct, I spazzed on the "stop" word, sorry.

Curious about them deploying other than SA boxes.

Isn't it true that only a 8300HDC + M-Card PLUS Navigator (i.e. the OCAP software) will produce essentially all that we "get" now with Passport/8300? Which SEEMS to say we may be getting stuck with navigator much sooner than we might have thought...

Yep - there used to be three knowledgeable Time Warner people I had access to online. They all seem to have fallen off the face of the earth.

xnappo

they were too competent and were fired. lol

1) Customers can purchase equipment that will seamlessly work with cable systems.
2) Cable companies have greater choices in equipment they buy (use Motorola boxes in SA systems, for example).
3) New market opportunities are opened for new cable services (games, targeted advertisements, etc) via the ability to add third party applications to cable boxes (both those owned by cable and those owned by customers).

Seems to me #1 is 100% from the marketing guys, #2 has little to do with revenue (nice to have but not a show stopper), the real guts is in #3. Not sure I'd call them 3rd party applications, wouldn't you say those will ONLY come from the TWCs of the world? A 3rd party app as I define it would be access to the iTunes Store... and that they will NEVER allow.

Of course, I'm wearing my Pepar The Cynic's hat<g>!

A 3rd party app as I define it would be access to the iTunes Store... and that they will NEVER allow.That's pretty much how I'd define it too, but I wouldn't bet against something like that at some point. I don't think you'll see cable taking the initiative, but I can see others wanting in as cable and internet become more intertwined. I think the only thing stopping a lot of development in this area is the rental of units vs retail sales.
Of course, I'm wearing my Pepar The Cynic's hat<g>!When did pepar buy a hat and where can I get one? :)

Curious about them deploying other than SA boxes.

Isn't it true that only a 8300HDC + M-Card PLUS Navigator (i.e. the OCAP software) will produce essentially all that we "get" now with Passport/8300? Which SEEMS to say we may be getting stuck with navigator much sooner than we might have thought...I'm not sure if there are really any significant changes in the hardware and lower level code that requires much change on the part of Passport to work on a SA8300HDC as opposed to a SA8300HD. As I've indicated lately, the "C" boxes from SA are OCAP CAPABLE - but they work with the legacy software as well.

Of course, they could potentially deploy Navigator ONLY to the new boxes, and not push it to the rest of the system. I think that they would rather avoid the Navigator issue as much as they can - but if they did want to start, doing it ONLY with the "C" boxes (and new installations) would make some sense. I'm sure that you recognize that one issue with OCAP is that it uses more processor resources in the STB, the older boxes are a lot more limited than the latest ones (the "C" versions have some more RAM and Flash, but the processors are the same compared to the 8300 non C models).

"new" can mean a lot of things. Sometimes simply opening a box and removing the contents makes the item "used". I'm sure the cable companies will do something like this to skirt the issue, they would just have to make sure the boxes are in inventory before 7/1

"new" can mean a lot of things. Sometimes simply opening a box and removing the contents makes the item "used". I'm sure the cable companies will do something like this to skirt the issue, they would just have to make sure the boxes are in inventory before 7/1I would be willing to bet that you will see "new" non-CC units put into service after July 1, but no "new" non-CC units added to inventory after July 1. There may already be no "new" non-CC units being added to inventory. I'd be very surprised if the FCC intends for "new" non-CC units added to inventory before July 1 to instantly become expensive doorstops. IMHO, "new" in this case simply means added to inventory after July 1, but I've been wrong before. What say you Dave?

I would be willing to bet that you will see "new" non-CC units put into service after July 1, but no "new" non-CC units added to inventory after July 1. There may already be no "new" non-CC units being added to inventory. I'd be very surprised if the FCC intends for "new" non-CC units added to inventory before July 1 to instantly become expensive doorstops. IMHO, "new" in this case simply means added to inventory after July 1, but I've been wrong before. What say you Dave?

The FCC "rules" state:
Commencing on July 1, 2007, no
multichannel video programming distributor
subject to this section shall
place in service new navigation devices
for sale, lease, or use that perform both
conditional access and other functions
in a single integrated device.The words "shall place in service new navigation devices" seems to me to be fairly clear - "new" units in inventory on 7/1/07 that have integrated security can not be placed in service. It's possible that there may be some "wiggle room" there, but it's probably not a big deal in the large picture. I mean, if they have 2 weeks inventory of old boxes that they use in new deployments. Actually, the Canadian operators may get some real good deals on new SA8300HDs.......... :p

My bet is they deploy Navigator to new boxes, but leave the older less memory Passport boxes like Pioneer alone until they die out and need to be replaced, OR a customer wants some of the features talked about that would require a Navigator upgrade.

On the other hand, they could be working on ways to deploy Navigator to boxes with less memory. For instance, a safer and alternative browser to IE is Firefox, and Firefox can run on Operating Systems as old as Windows 98. I think Time Warner WANTS Navigator to be like Firefox. (But it really has been IE on Vista!) I suppose such a move to make Navigator more stable could be done, but ONLY if Time Warner hires and maintains outside engineers to do the necessary box upgrades or software downloads for an upgrade.

There is no way that Time Warner wants to have customers experience the horrors that people had with Navigator in Lincoln Nebraska. I just count my blessings each day with my Pioneer Passport box!

Have their been any service improvements in Lincoln Nebraska with TWC Navigator? When was your last software update downloaded to your boxes?

Jack

OK since I posted about the Navigator launch my source has dried up.What i was told that all comments on Navigator must come from the TWC Public Relations dept. That any comments by employees would not be allowed> It seems a veil of secrecrcy has dropped on Navigator.where this leaves Navigator and it's national launch is anyones guess.

where this leaves Navigator and it's national launch is anyones guess.It's TW's guess as well. ;) After the disaster in Lincoln, I doubt very much that there will be any sort of large scale national roll-out till they have it squared away.

A May 23, 2007 presentation at Java Conference. Includes a TWC presentation on Navigator. http://blueboard.com/bluray/pdf/2007_5_23_tv_kickoff.pdf
/Dan

What additional features would everyone like to see in a national version of Navigator? I for one would love to see TWC get rid of the annoying A, B, C buttons and just use a straight menu based system! I had to get a Logitech remote to work my system because the TWC remote is hardly universal!

A May 23, 2007 presentation at Java Conference. Includes a TWC presentation on Navigator. http://blueboard.com/bluray/pdf/2007_5_23_tv_kickoff.pdf
/Dan

Wow, some people in Lincoln could have a field day with this bullet:

--
Beginning of the rollout
TWC OCAP Status
• TWC Digital Navigator and applications
• TWC Digital Navigator is being beta tested on SA and Samsung
boxes and has begun initial testing on Motorola boxes
--

xnappo

There's a saying called, "No news is good news." Given the trials and tribulations of TWC Navigator, we can say, "No news is great news!"

Seriously, given what we know, does anybody really now WANT this upgrade?

Jack

I want an upgrade, but one that works! The current SARA software is pretty lame when compared to say the Dish Network UI. I'd like to see a more basic GUI and the elimination of the A,B,C buttons as well as a search function that is actually useful! Record buffers would be nice too!

It's TW's guess as well. ;) After the disaster in Lincoln, I doubt very much that there will be any sort of large scale national roll-out till they have it squared away.

Gee, you must have secured an entire Optimism Suit from Pepar and like wearing it (damn I wish I could go that way!). Wanna put any money they'll EVER have it "squared away?" Keep in mind that this is the company that knowingly made Lincoln happen, wanna bet there were internal/TWC employees people trying to tell the bosses NOT to dump pre-alpha software in production?

While I find Passport a lousy application in many respects, it's somewhat workable with one big serious flaw (trick play bug). If they fixed the damn bug and simply changed the name from Passport to Navigator I would be somewhat OK with that. THEN we can turn our collective attention to trying to get them to make it a better application.

While I find Passport a lousy application in many respects, it's somewhat workable with one big serious flaw (trick play bug). If they fixed the damn bug and simply changed the name from Passport to Navigator I would be somewhat OK with that. THEN we can turn our collective attention to trying to get them to make it a better application.

You forgot the bug where Passport will randomly decide not to record things.

I know, I know. 80 people will now jump in and say they have never had the problem and claim I've done something wrong. Let's just pretend everyone did that and move on. ;)

Before my source shut down i found out 5 former passport programers are now working on Navigator with the Time Warner Navigator team.If this is good or bad news only time will tell but Navigator updates have seemed very Passport like.

You would think this would be easy for DVR boxes. I'm sure they could find a way to utilize the hard drive for additional storage of code.

I would be willing to bet that you will see "new" non-CC units put into service after July 1, but no "new" non-CC units added to inventory after July 1. There may already be no "new" non-CC units being added to inventory. I'd be very surprised if the FCC intends for "new" non-CC units added to inventory before July 1 to instantly become expensive doorstops. IMHO, "new" in this case simply means added to inventory after July 1, but I've been wrong before. What say you Dave?I've just come upon a quote that pretty much answers this from an industry standpoint: Charlie Kennamer, Comcast’s vice president of engineering, standards and industry affairs, said the operator already deployed CableCARD-enabled boxes in all of its markets, at least for trials in employees’ homes. “We’ve pretty much depleted our inventory of integrated boxes,” he said at a panel discussion. “If we don’t, we’ll have a bunch of bricks in inventory after July 1.”This was from Todd Spangler's daily journal in Multichannel News of the SCTE Conference going on now in Florida.

Good find, Dave. I still thinks it's silly to turn any existing inventory into bricks, but then that's just me. :)

Has anyone actually seen and tested the SMT-H3050 from Samsung ?

Today's news item from Lincoln:

http://www.journalstar.com/articles/2007/06/22/news/local/doc467b213058234019260067.txt

From that article:In addition, Shrewsbury said, complaints have dwindled in the past few months.

“I think the software is stable now,” she said. “We’re ready to move on.”

That's scarry - particularly the "We’re ready to move on"

Do they mean move on to the rest of the country?
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

From that article:

That's scarry - particularly the "We’re ready to move on"

Do they mean move on to the rest of the country?
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Absolutely! What strikes me is that do we see ANY kind of consequences for this! Kinda like that celeb-u-slut getting out of jail and banking a million and a half (interview and photos).

BTW, don't you hear in your head the next sentence after the brick one "And we sure as hell WILL figure out a way to foist those "bricks" on our customers, thereby enhancing the value to our shareholders."

Well it looks like Navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

Well it looks like Navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

We EAGERLY await any eSATA experiments you do!!

xnappo

We EAGERLY await any eSATA experiments you do!!

xnappo

I'll try tomorrow with my eSATA drive that I have plugged into my Passport box. I really hope that if it works it doesn't delete what's on the drive already! Eeeek!

Not every channel can be recorded and pause and rewind live TV. It seems to be random. I changed the channel to MOJO and no time meter appeared at the bottom of the screen. I was unable to record, pause or rewind the channel. I changed it off and back again and it worked. Did it again and it didn't work. VS wouldn't work at all. What crappy software.

I'll try tomorrow with my eSATA drive that I have plugged into my Passport box. I really hope that if it works it doesn't delete what's on the drive already! Eeeek!Since the recordings are tied to the current box, I"m not sure I'd experiment. If it automatically formats, you are screwed if there is anything you want to keep.

Anyone else that has Navigator know how to get to the diagnostic screen? I entered it by accident and now I don't know what I did to get to it.

Well it looks like Navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

I'm in Durham and returned our 8300 last week. When asked why I told them I decided to get a DVR with decent software (I have a TiVo Series 3 I've been running in parallel with the 8300) and was concerned about the quality of the new Navigator software. Looks like I turned it in just in time.

Anyone else that has Navigator know how to get to the diagnostic screen? I entered it by accident and now I don't know what I did to get to it.

I don't have Navigator myself, however Dorny423 had previously posted a way to get the version number which I think probably is sitting on the diagnostic screen. Am attempting to post a direct link on the next line; if that doesn't work, go to post #510 of this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9850893&highlight=dorny423+version#post9850893

I'll try tomorrow with my eSATA drive that I have plugged into my Passport box. I really hope that if it works it doesn't delete what's on the drive already! Eeeek!

I would *NOT* try that. It almost certainly will try to format it if it works at all!

xnappo

Well it looks like Navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

Ah, isn't this the box that does NOT have integrated security and thus operates with a cable card? We really want to hear about it, although I suspect it may be really hard to determine whether any issue is due to the hardware or the software. You are encouraged mightily to feed the info-beast your observations!

Have you had an 8300HD before? Several pals of mine and I consistently find that it takes the box about 10 minutes to warm up enough that it actually registers button presses...

Have you had an 8300HD before? Several pals of mine and I consistently find that it takes the box about 10 minutes to warm up enough that it actually registers button presses...After all this time I am still amazed to hear things like this that I don't recall ever hearing before and have not experienced. I assume you are just talking the power off/on and not a surge suppressor or something off/on. I can't imagine what would take 10 minutes to warm up since the unit it actually always on, drive spinning, recording, etc.

... I don't recall ever hearing before and have not experienced. I assume you are just talking the power off/on and not a surge suppressor or something off/on. I can't imagine what would take 10 minutes to warm up since the unit it actually always on, drive spinning, recording, etc. Ten minute warm up? I never encountered that either... maybe the buttons aren't working because the batteries in the remote need to be changed… :confused:

Several pals of mine and I consistently find that it takes the box about 10 minutes to warm up enough that it actually registers button presses...A few weeks ago, I was able to observe an 8300HD running Passport on TWC in Manhattan (near 183rd St., west side) and saw this sort of behavior.

When the unit was first turned on, I think maybe you could immediately do things like change channels, but functions like "List" and "Play" were just dead for several minutes. I thought it was only two or three minutes, it could have been longer.

As I recall, some functions would start working before others, so perhaps you could start playback of a recording but have difficulty using pause, FF, rewind, etc. After a few minutes had passed, the unit was fully functional, and (as someone limited to SARA at home) I was very impressed with what I saw: it looked almost usable!

Is this behavior linked to when the DVR is turned on via the front panel or remote or, perhaps, when power is applied to the unit (such as when someone connects everything to a power strip and turns THAT on)? If it is the latter, you are seeing the box booting up. It is designed to have power applied to the box 24/7 and if power is disconnected it will have to reboot once power is connected. That would take the kind of time that you are talking about.

Is this behavior linked to when the DVR is turned on via the front panel or remote <snip>Yes, the unit was being turned "on" via the remote. The unit is in standby all the time, to capture programs for viewing later. On this occasion a show had started recording at, say, 8:00, and we waited until 8:20 (or maybe 8:40 for a two-hour show?) to start watching it so we could skip thru commercials.

No question of bad batteries or extra rebooting; the users just accepted these delays as a quirk they could live with.

...I was able to observe an 8300HD running Passport on TWC in Manhattan (near 183rd St., west side) and saw this sort of behavior. Well your friends and RiverSideGuy are both experiencing this start up quirk and you (your friends and RG) are in the same neighborhood give or take a couple of miles. It’s not the first time something different happened in that area. :)

Well,

I don't have a DVR, but I was told you can leave the box on all the time by several techs. One tech said he has done that with his own DVR for several years and never had a problem. I leave my box turned on, it's 5 years old, and works great.

How old are the DVR's experiencing these "warm up" issues? A good friend of mine, who is into DVR/Tivo devices says that the hard drives last about 5-6 years, if you are dealing with a receiver that lasts about as long as can be expected.

Jack

A few weeks ago, I was able to observe an 8300HD running Passport on TWC in Manhattan (near 183rd St., west side) and saw this sort of behavior.I didn't specifically note this at the time, but now that you mention it, that lag was some of why I found Passport to be less than I expected. Still not sure why it would take a few minutes to warm up from Standby mode though, but maybe something needs to be initialized and loaded to RAM first. Perhaps Passport loads modules as needed or something like that.

Well it looks like Navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

Odd that they do not have anything on the Customer Support page about Navigator for Raleigh yet.

Ted

Well it looks like Navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

Hey, is there any indication you got a unit with a drive larger than 160GB? I would not need eSATA if the internal drive were 400GB instead of 160.

Thanks,
Ted

Hey, is there any indication you got a unit with a drive larger than 160GB? I would not need eSATA if the internal drive were 400GB instead of 160.

Thanks,
Ted
The SA8300HDCs (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) are still 160GB.

Specs are same as SA8300HD for dual 250 MIPS processors and (optional) 128 MB RAM.
Hopefully the next software update will fix the external HDD FF/RW bug...

It apparently has DSG (DOCSIS Gateway)...Q: both uplink and downlink????

But no MPEG4 via IPTV......so it's days may be numbered....

Have you had an 8300HD before? Several pals of mine and I consistently find that it takes the box about 10 minutes to warm up enough that it actually registers button presses...

I have my Passport 8300HD set to shut down completely when turned off (a menu option). I do not have buffer, etc. when turned off, so it is really shutting down. It does record when needed and does come back to the channel it was left on, so maybe just not writing to disk unless recording to save wear and tear??? I keep forgetting to listen to really hear whether the HD is spinning down.

Do the 10 minute wait people have LCD TVs? I saw people with one of the satellite TV company remotes having problems with the remote getting swamped by IR from the TV (happened to be Sharp Aquos) while the TV warms up and won't allow the remote to work for 5-10 minutes. I remember tape over a sensor was involved. I think it was put on the remote's IR LEDs, but doesn't make sense right now to me so would have to find the info.

Dan

Even from a cold boot, my 8300HD w/Passport only takes about 3-4 minutes to reach a usable state. My DirecTiVO took about 7 minutes to boot, and most of that was acquiring guide info. 10 minutes seems outrageous for anything made since the 80s to completely boot.

Ted

After all this time I am still amazed to hear things like this that I don't recall ever hearing before and have not experienced. I assume you are just talking the power off/on and not a surge suppressor or something off/on. I can't imagine what would take 10 minutes to warm up since the unit it actually always on, drive spinning, recording, etc.

I'm sure I posted about this issue abnout a year ago. The "warmed up" was NOT a scientific observation, but the box 100% took a good 10 minutes before signals from the remote worked. Way dofferent from my 8000DVR.

Is this behavior linked to when the DVR is turned on via the front panel or remote or, perhaps, when power is applied to the unit (such as when someone connects everything to a power strip and turns THAT on)? If it is the latter, you are seeing the box booting up. It is designed to have power applied to the box 24/7 and if power is disconnected it will have to reboot once power is connected. That would take the kind of time that you are talking about.

Very much I am NOT talking about cold booting the box! Hell, that process actually seems to take a lot longer now than 6 months ago... but is not the issue. Y'all should know I'm a bit more savvy than that!

Well your friends and RiverSideGuy are both experiencing this start up quirk and you (your friends and RG) are in the same neighborhood give or take a couple of miles. It’s not the first time something different happened in that area. :)

I'm Manhattan North, the pal I referred to was Manhattan South. Two different head ends. HE notices it more NOW because he just got a HD display and is watching a lot more than prior.

Well,

I don't have a DVR, but I was told you can leave the box on all the time by several techs. One tech said he has done that with his own DVR for several years and never had a problem. I leave my box turned on, it's 5 years old, and works great.

How old are the DVR's experiencing these "warm up" issues? A good friend of mine, who is into DVR/Tivo devices says that the hard drives last about 5-6 years, if you are dealing with a receiver that lasts about as long as can be expected.

Jack

Yes I considered this... but I suspect it draws more power when "on" than in standby (my electric rates are going through the roof and I'm on a campaign to keep them in check as much as I can). PLUS, the way I have it set, it shows clock when in standby and channel when "on."

I'm Manhattan North, the pal I referred to was Manhattan South. Two different head ends. HE notices it more NOW because he just got a HD display and is watching a lot more than prior.I wasn’t referring to your friends, I was referring to you and Ron-on-Mrng-Vsta’s (post 1065) friends who live on the West Side and 183rd. :)
Regardless, I don’t recall ever hearing about a start up delay. :confused:

Hi Guys,

So I was wondering and willing to share with all of the fine experts on the board, what do YOU think will happen with the future of Navigator within the next 6 months?

Also, do you know if there are any plans for new channels on the horizon? (I know this isn't the thread to discuss new channels, but the TWC Customer thread is dead, and I thought more people would see this question if posted here.) Thanks! I am interested in getting Chiller TV added to my TWC line-up. It's a great channel, and right now it is only offered on dish, Direct TV.

Regards,

Jack

... maybe something needs to be initialized and loaded to RAM first...Could be something like that.

I checked with my NYC contact, and he says: "Yeah, it's still doing it. It does it every time you leave it for a long period of time. It's definitely not 'asleep' like a hard drive off - since it never affects the actual operation of the unit, just how it responds to user input.

I usually just hit the 'list' and 'guide' buttons until they both work properly. (One of them starts working more quickly than the other). I don't think I'd say that it's 10 minutes, more like 2 or 3.

I'm not an expert, but my own personal opinion is that we won't see much in the way of new features in the next 6 months to a year. I think TWC will spend that time honing the existing features and getting them to work right and consistently.

As to new channels, TWC seems to decide this on a system by system basis. Look for an AVS forum that covers your local system (Milwaukee?) and see what's being said there. Also, keep your eyes on the "What's New" section of your cable bill; they usually announce new channels there.

-barry

Hi Guys,

So I was wondering and willing to share with all of the fine experts on the board, what do YOU think will happen with the future of Navigator within the next 6 months?

Also, do you know if there are any plans for new channels on the horizon? (I know this isn't the thread to discuss new channels, but the TWC Customer thread is dead, and I thought more people would see this question if posted here.) Thanks! I am interested in getting Chiller TV added to my TWC line-up. It's a great channel, and right now it is only offered on dish, Direct TV.

Regards,

Jack

Also, keep your eyes on the "What's New" section of your cable bill; they usually announce new channels there.

-barry


And if you see that TWC is announcing new channels, look for a concurrent increase in your subscription rate. Or is Lincoln the only market where improved channel lineups seem to signal rate increases?
:o

And if you see that TWC is announcing new channels, look for a concurrent increase in your subscription rate. Or is Lincoln the only market where improved channel lineups seem to signal rate increases?
:o

Just as a point of fairness, when TWC Austin added ESPN2, my cable bill dropped by $8. They removed the charge for HBO in-demand, lowered the cost of the pay HD tier, and moved some channels from the pay HD tier into the no-charge HD tier.

xnappo

Just as a point of fairness, when TWC Austin added ESPN2, my cable bill dropped by $8. They removed the charge for HBO in-demand, lowered the cost of the pay HD tier, and moved some channels from the pay HD tier into the no-charge HD tier.

xnappo

Well up here we had 2 HD channels removed from a HD only pay tier with no price decrease (5 channels to three and they added a few SD channels to this HD speciality iter to justify the 40% drop in available HD channels we are still paying for), yes we got ESPN2 HD (ah, but only on the more expensive of the 2 "normal" digital tiers), but three months earlier we did see a rate increase of a couple of bucks per month, yes we get 4 less HD channel than SI while we pay the same overall rate. Or how about right outside the city line, RR for a good year was TWICE as fast as what we got for the same price... and now is running 70% of "their" speed.

I have no issue with paying for what I get, but we're talking major inequities here. If they give SI more service, either they should pay more or we should pay less. It's the inequity that really burns my britches.

Oh, one more thing. Can't 100% attest it's the cause, but I and many others seem to be noticing a HUGE increase in the frequency of audio dropouts and other glitches that seemed to start when they added ESPN2 HD. From at least 4 separate head ends, meaning system-wide. Can't guarentee you one caused the other, but one sure started with the introduction of that other...

Oh, one more thing. Can't 100% attest it's the cause, but I and many others seem to be noticing a HUGE increase in the frequency of audio dropouts and other glitches that seemed to start when they added ESPN2 HD. From at least 4 separate head ends, meaning system-wide. Can't guarentee you one caused the other, but one sure started with the introduction of that other...

I wonder if they moved some of their bandwidth to high-ingress channels (channels on the same frequency as local broadcast stations).

Here in Austin we have SDV - and ESPN2 was added as an SDV channel. It is strange that the policies are so different. Of course as you have mentioned before you are a more captive audience since satellite is not an option for you, while in Austin almost everyone could switch to satellite if they wanted to.

xnappo

I wonder if they moved some of their bandwidth to high-ingress channels (channels on the same frequency as local broadcast stations). That could be. Could also be just moving to a higher frequency which is more susceptible to attenuation.

There is NOTHING fair about cable bills or the inequity between systems and markets on the same system. It is simply supply & demand and we continue to pay the bill, so we have little to complain about. I would love to pay less that $25/mo for my DVR as Cox customers do in other markets, but since I live here, I put up or switch. If I moved to San Diego, my cable bill would be the least of my financial woes. :)

If I moved to San Diego, my cable bill would be the least of my financial woes. :)Yes, there is some equalization in the world after all. :rolleyes:

The SA8300HDCs (http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf) are still 160GB.

Why bother then? I mean, if all they are doing is adding the cablecard slot and not changing any other specs or advancing the product, then to me it's a wasted effort. These units should be coming with a 500GB hard drive. They have become significantly cheaper and would add serious capacity. I called TW asking about adding an external SATA drive and they didn't know ANYTHING about the hardware. Instead, they wanted to know WHY I needed more drive space. I explained that I record alot because of my work schedule and much of what I record is HD. The box only holds about 20 hours of HD. They wanted me to bring the box back and exchange it stating something must be wrong because it should hold more than 20 hours. I referred them to the spec sheet and found myself educating them about THEIR product!!! I guess my point is that if you are going to overhaul the box then why the hell not IMPROVE IT! :confused:

Why bother then? I mean, if all they are doing is adding the cablecard slot and not changing any other specs or advancing the product, then to me it's a wasted effort. What is most significant regarding this mandate is cable TV operators are no longer permitted to distribute new STBs with integrated and proprietary security. Requiring STBs to use an OCAP authorization mechanism with a CableCARD hopefully will spur digital A/V equipment manufactures to provide consumers with additional choices beyond the aging SA8300.

What is most significant regarding this mandate is cable TV operators are no longer permitted to distribute new STBs with integrated and proprietary security. Requiring STBs to use an OCAP authorization mechanism with a CableCARD hopefully will spur digital A/V equipment manufactures to provide consumers with additional choices beyond the aging SA8300.

Big whoop. With OCAP the only competition will come in the choice of hard drive size and I guess color of the box. The software, interface, and features will still be controlled by the cable cartel. I'm not even sure I see a business reason to get into the cut-throat, race to the bottom-price market for hardware. It's so low margin it's not worth it.

Big whoop. With OCAP the only competition will come in the choice of hard drive size and I guess color of the box. The software, interface, and features will still be controlled by the cable cartel. I'm not even sure I see a business reason to get into the cut-throat, race to the bottom-price market for hardware. It's so low margin it's not worth it.That is your opinion, but OCAP certainly opens the door for more options even if they are offered/controlled by the cableco. No longer does stuff have to work strickly on SA/Moto/whatever headends and the door will open to multiple options, like Tivo, depending on what you want to pay. If you want a basic IPG, it may be included. If you want something more robust, it may be an added cost option. Also, with continued integration of the internet, what keeps someone from offering an OCAP-capable box that gets it's guide data via the internet and takes cable out as the middle man? I don't think we'll see much, if anything, though until DCAS. I still see the CC-enable units as an interim and why should retailers dive in before they know exactly what the future holds?

Requiring STBs to use an OCAP authorization mechanism with a CableCARD hopefully will spur digital A/V equipment manufactures to provide consumers with additional choices beyond the aging SA8300.I'm sure that this has been pointed out before but the TRUTH is that there has been NO REQUIREMENT that OCAP be used after 7/1/07.

While it is TRUE that the broad objective of the FCC is to enable Consumer Owned Navigation Devices has lead industry to develop the Open Cable Application Platform, no government agency has mandated it's use.

The FCC has also not directly mandated the use of CableCards either. They have only mandated that NEW cable company supplied STBs NOT have integrated (built-in) security. While industry has developed a downloadable security solution (DCAS - Downloadable Conditional Access Security), it is not yet ready for deployment. Because the FCC is unwilling to delay further delay in action the only solution for cable is to temporarily use boxes with CableCards, until DCAS is ready for deployment.

BTW: The CableCards that most of the cable boxes will use are different than the old ones. These are know as "Type M", meaning Multi-Stream. They can handle multiple (up to 6) programing streams.

These new boxes are capable of using OCAP - but then, many of the old boxes are also supposedly capable of OCAP too.

One reason that we aren't seeing greater changes in the cable boxes now is that major changes are in the not too distant future (DCAS, MPEG-4, etc.) and they are waiting for those (particularly DCAS) before the next major retooling.

Besides: What is the market for these cable supplied STBs if consumers will be able to purchase their own navigation devices, or have them built into the TV?

But the bottom line here: OCAP is NOT mandated by the FCC by 7/1/07.

That is your opinion, but OCAP certainly opens the door for more options even if they are offered/controlled by the cableco. No longer does stuff have to work strickly on SA/Moto/whatever headends and the door will open to multiple options, like Tivo, depending on what you want to pay. If you want a basic IPG, it may be included. If you want something more robust, it may be an added cost option. Also, with continued integration of the internet, what keeps someone from offering an OCAP-capable box that gets it's guide data via the internet and takes cable out as the middle man? I don't think we'll see much, if anything, though until DCAS. I still see the CC-enable units as an interim and why should retailers dive in before they know exactly what the future holds?

OCAP allows the cable cartel to control the user experience, which is the thing that really determines the usefulness of a device, not the hardware. If the OCAP software supplied by the cable cartel in your area doesn't support firewire, ethernet, etc. then it won't matter if the hardware vendor puts it on there. So to answer your question, the cable cartel will keep someone from offering an OCAP-capable box that gets it's guide data via the internet.

The only way OCAP will encourage competition is if the cable companies carry any OCAP certified software and let me pick which one I want to use. They can continue to provide their mediocre software and let those who want pick different software to run (and pay extra or not depending on the financial terms of the deals with the various software companies).

You know, the cable cartel has had a decade to come up with a reasonable solution to the FCC mandates. They spent all their time complaining and then coming up with two bad solutions to the problem (CableCard and OCAP). Maybe DCAS is the answer, but with the cable cartel dragging it's feet the whole way it'll be another decade before we see it.

Well, I'm pissed and it isn't Navigator. SARA missed the Series Finale of Studio 60 while I was on vacation this week. This isn't the first time it randomly decided to just miss a show either. It really irks me because I know I did nothing wrong. In fact, it's been recording the series all along, even through the shows crippling hiatus that ultimately got it canned. It's really, REALLY annoying when this happens. I was looking forward to how the show ended too! Now, I have to watch it on my computer instead of my IN72 ... BOOOOO!

Well, I'm pissed and it isn't Navigator. SARA missed the Series Finale of Studio 60 while I was on vacation this week. This isn't the first time it randomly decided to just miss a show either. It really irks me because I know I did nothing wrong. In fact, it's been recording the series all along, even through the shows crippling hiatus that ultimately got it canned. It's really, REALLY annoying when this happens. I was looking forward to how the show ended too! Now, I have to watch it on my computer instead of my IN72 ... BOOOOO!Well, I'm in the next major city west of you and our SARA caught it fine (watched it delayed about 15 min).

Sorry to see that show go.

Well, I'm in the next major city west of you and our SARA caught it fine (watched it delayed about 15 min).Mine got it to, but that doesn't help Ben. :( I suspect there was a Title problem in the IPG or something like that.

Sorry to see that show go.Me too, but I can see why it didn't survive.

(Copied from Customer Service Thread since no one goes there anymore:)

Here in TWC-Milwaukee,

We haven't had any major problems for several years. In the 20 years I have had cable, we had maybe 5 service calls and two of them were to replace buggy digital boxes. Only one tech seemed incompetent. I don't have Navigator, just a regular Pioneer digital box, and it has worked great for the past 5 years.

Customer Service has had longer hold times because of the gradual change-over to Navigator, which i know almost everybody hates, so I am not looking forward to that. When I did get a run around regarding a digital box's operation, I was able to get a supervisor AND a senior tech to come out to the house and they were most helpful and supportive.

Have any of you tried the call back feature if your local TWC office has that, rather than waiting on hold? Supposedly, you can keep your place in line and get a call back in approximately the same number of minutes that you would have had to wait on hold? I haven't used TWC call back service yet, but was wondering if you had? What about E-mail and on-line chat with a tech? We also have those other options here in Milwaukee.

Jack

Just an update: I'm even MORE PO'd now. After reviewing my entire week of recordings it seems my DVR missed Rescue Me and the season finale of The Real Deal as well! WTF!!! I went to my recorded list and checked scheduled recordings and it was empty. I then rebooted my box and it seems to have fixed everything, but what an annoyance! Luckily, I can catch a re-run of Real Deal and Rescue Me, but now instead of watching the series finale of Studio 60 in HD, I'll be stuck watching it on my PC. This crap coupled with the lousy record times (some shows cut off the end and others run for ten minutes extra!) has me thinking about looking for other DVR options and this will happen if Navigator gets dumped upon us and has more issues than these!

BenJF3,

What version of SARA do you have?

Have you checked the signal levels that you are getting? If they are not in the correct range they can cause problems. The first post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4682052&&#post4682052) in the SA 8300 HD Tips & Tricks -- SARA thread has information about signal levels and a link to SA Diagnostic Screens Explained. Also, it has a lot of other good information about SARA.

BenJF3,

What version of SARA do you have?

Have you checked the signal levels that you are getting? If they are not in the correct range they can cause problems. The first post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4682052&&#post4682052) in the SA 8300 HD Tips & Tricks -- SARA thread has information about signal levels and a link to SA Diagnostic Screens Explained. Also, it has a lot of other good information about SARA.Hasn't there been a few posts where this has happened with a software upgrade? It seems to me others have complained about their schedules and recordings being messed up too after the cableco did something. Obviously, it was something more than just a Title problem.

BenJF3,

What version of SARA do you have?

Have you checked the signal levels that you are getting? If they are not in the correct range they can cause problems. The first post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4682052&&#post4682052) in the SA 8300 HD Tips & Tricks -- SARA thread has information about signal levels and a link to SA Diagnostic Screens Explained. Also, it has a lot of other good information about SARA.

I will check this out today and post back later. I know that I have had signal issues in the past where most HD and some digital channels were not coming in (Black Screen). I will go into my software and get the SARA version number and post it here as well as signal levels for comparison. I have requested a drop amp from TWC because of the weak signal, but always get the run around.

Quick background: I am the only run coming off the drop which is underground and right out front of my house. The drop comes into the TWC junction box and goes through a grounding barrel, then into the crawl space and distributed by an eight way splitter. The are six tv's running off the splitter, one cable/voip modem, and my computer TV card/PVR. There are no empty outlets and the TV tuner PCI card gets horrible reception. All the wiring was installed by TWC before I moved in by the previous owner. Since TWC is not being responsive, I was going to pick up an Electroline Drop Amp off eBay and install it myself. If it wasn't such an undertaking, I'd see about running a second drop from the node out front because no other homes will be using it (I'm on a corner and everyone else is across the street). I personally think a powered two drop amp would be the easiest solution if the signal level issue is causing problems.

Thanks to everyone that is helping out and I'll get the info and post back a little later with it.

Ben


OK, here is what I see:

Software Version OS, Home Server Edition 1.8
SARA 1.89.17.1

On Page 1
Tuner 1 shows -13dBmv
FDC = - 7
RDC = 44

Current FDC = -7 S/N = 27
Current RDC = 44
Current QAM = -13 S/N = -31

I don't know if this is helpful or not and appreciate any info/help you guys can offer. Thanks!

You have a pretty current version of SARA so I don't think that is the problem.

The signal levels for Current QAM and S/N are not within the correct range. You should try to get TWC to check the signals and install an amplifier if needed. Some cable companies charge for installing an amplifier and some do it for free. If the signal is not clean, then an amplifier may create additional problems. I think an amplifier will probably be needed but I am not a cable tech. The cable/voip modem should not go through the amplifier but be split off before the amplifier. All the other cables should be run off the powered amplifier. Make sure the amplifier is for digital cable and that it supports the capability to return a signal to the cable company. The use of splitters should be minimized.

I will check this out today and post back later. I know that I have had signal issues in the past where most HD and some digital channels were not coming in (Black Screen). I will go into my software and get the SARA version number and post it here as well as signal levels for comparison. I have requested a drop amp from TWC because of the weak signal, but always get the run around.

Quick background: I am the only run coming off the drop which is underground and right out front of my house. The drop comes into the TWC junction box and goes through a grounding barrel, then into the crawl space and distributed by an eight way splitter. The are six tv's running off the splitter, one cable/voip modem, and my computer TV card/PVR. There are no empty outlets and the TV tuner PCI card gets horrible reception. All the wiring was installed by TWC before I moved in by the previous owner. Since TWC is not being responsive, I was going to pick up an Electroline Drop Amp off eBay and install it myself. If it wasn't such an undertaking, I'd see about running a second drop from the node out front because no other homes will be using it (I'm on a corner and everyone else is across the street). I personally think a powered two drop amp would be the easiest solution if the signal level issue is causing problems.

Thanks to everyone that is helping out and I'll get the info and post back a little later with it.

Ben


OK, here is what I see:

Software Version OS, Home Server Edition 1.8
SARA 1.89.17.1

On Page 1
Tuner 1 shows -13dBmv
FDC = - 7
RDC = 44

Current FDC = -7 S/N = 27
Current RDC = 44
Current QAM = -13 S/N = -31

I don't know if this is helpful or not and appreciate any info/help you guys can offer. Thanks!