Now, if they implemented something like ReplayTV, that would be a different story. ReplayTV allowed you to automatically record anything that matched your search. E.g., record all Missouri football games or all movies with Matt Damon.In TiVo that's called a "Wishlist" recording. You can create a complex search expression and store it, using it whenever you want and you can specify that every program matching that expression be recorded.

I've been using TVGuide's search capability for months. That's why I can't get excited over Navigator's lack of search. Even if they implemented it in Navigator, I can't imagine it being as easy to use as TVGuide or MY TV.

My feelings exactly. With me, TitanTV and IMDb have provided virtually everything I've needed to find things I wanted to watch. In fact, I can count on one hand the number of individual channel websites (like TCM, UniversalHD, etc.) that I've used in addition to those two.

Even better, with IMDb, I can easily find anything upcoming with Gene Hackman in it, everything directed by Howard Hawks, etc. Even if Navigator added that option, using that onscreen keyboard is too reminiscent of dad's old WebTV back in the day and a royal pain to use.

For others, this omission makes them see red - for me, I literally couldn't care any less about it than I do. But the items that make me see red are ones that I constantly used with SARA. As mentioned above, I 'grew up' with SARA and that has certainly colored my opinion, but others can't even generate a yawn regarding my hot buttons.

I wish I could convince myself to bite the bullet and leave TWC for something else. I'm afraid the upcoming TiVO/DirecTV may be my best hope - as well as a non-option when the price is ultimately revealed. Oh well...:(

In TiVo that's called a "Wishlist" recording. You can create a complex search expression and store it, using it whenever you want and you can specify that every program matching that expression be recorded.

Indeed, although I characterize it as keyword search plus ability to retain the search. I did that all the time when I had decent DVR software... until I got 'gatored.

I'd like to have a one-button caption on/off (I tried remote macro flashing all the required menus, but it was too much hassle). Currently, I have a very usable workaround: set the caption to "On With Mute" and then use DVR mute button to turn captions on/off. It does not actually affect the sound at all. DVR sound controls do nothing at all (except the above workaround). I have HDMI from DVR to TV and optical from DVR to receiver.
Please don't tell me they ruined this in 3.2.0_15.

That's how I had mine setup too. Whatever recent update was downloaded broke this setup.

The next release (so far in Charlotte and San Diego only) is 3.2.0_15, and it...

Adds "All Showings" selection in the guide menu
Starts searches on the current show
Loses Sort by Favorites:mad:
Adds support for DVR Manager (set recordings from anywhere via web browser)
It's been stable here in Charlotte (I have a Samsung 3090 and an SA 4250HDC), but San Diego seems to have had some issues with it, particularly with 4250HDC boxes. There was also a Samsung firmware/middleware update that went along with the ODN update. The combined updates seems to have fixed a Samsung recording issue that was primarily a Charlotte issue (some reports of similar problems issues in NYC as well). The updates also further screwed up the already screwy FF/REW functions in the 3090.


When is Charlotte supposed to get this? I haven't seen this functionality yet and I'm in Charlotte:confused:

When is Charlotte supposed to get this? I haven't seen this functionality yet and I'm in Charlotte:confused:

You have an 8300HD box (per your sig) and those run different software (MDN) than the OCAP boxes (Cisco/SA HDCs and Samsungs). The update was to the ODN version of Navigator. The two versions are roughly similar in functionality, but differences do exist and the differences can vary depending on the update cyscles for each version.

I believe that the the DVR Manager is in employee beta testing in Charlotte... not yet rolled out to the public.

Did Rovi update their page the last week or so?

Their passport Tru2way images were updated and they look even nicer! I wish TW still had it :(

http://www.rovicorp.com/products/service_providers/guide_sp/passport_tru2way.htm?link_id=rightnav

I'm not sure if this was known before, but apparently Navigator will eventually get guide filtering (including Just HD Channels option), more detailed guide data, and a smaller channel banner. From an interview here: http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/feb/21/time-warner-cable-replies-to-some-reader-complaint/entertainment/

I'm not sure if this was known before, but apparently Navigator will eventually get guide filtering (including Just HD Channels option), more detailed guide data, and a smaller channel banner. From an interview here: http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/feb/21/time-warner-cable-replies-to-some-reader-complaint/entertainment/

This is encouraging. Filter for HD only would be particularly nice to have.

I'm not sure if this was known before, but apparently Navigator will eventually get guide filtering (including Just HD Channels option), more detailed guide data, and a smaller channel banner. From an interview here: http://www2.journalnow.com/content/2010/feb/21/time-warner-cable-replies-to-some-reader-complaint/entertainment/

From the TWCNC support page:

Question:
Why are the program descriptions so short?

Answer:
There is a limit to the number of characters we can enter in the system which can be displayed on-screen. Time Warner Cable understands that giving you longer program descriptions are an important issue. We are always working to improve descriptions and add content to enhance your viewing experience.


So important that that response has been on the site since mid-2008 and here we are with the same promises, promises once again.

This is encouraging. Filter for HD only would be particularly nice to have.

That is exactly what I used "Sort by Favorites" for until it disappeared with the ODN 3.2.0_15 update.

From the TWCNC support page:

Question:
Why are the program descriptions so short?

Answer:
There is a limit to the number of characters we can enter in the system which can be displayed on-screen. Time Warner Cable understands that giving you longer program descriptions are an important issue. We are always working to improve descriptions and add content to enhance your viewing experience.


So important that that response has been on the site since mid-2008 and here we are with the same promises, promises once again.

Agree,

It takes them 6-24 months to update anything!

Jack

Just picked up a brand-spankin' new Cisco 8640 HDC today in Overland Park. (KC Metro)

Haven't had a ton of time with it yet.
First impressions
Boot-up time: 3:36
ODN countdown time: under :20 (L13-L1)
Black instead of silver (yay!)
Looks like we've got about 297GB of storage available
(which is nice since eSata support doesn't exist)
Better responsiveness

Just a quick browse through the diag pages and it appears as if there is not a way to fix the audio issue I've been having the last few ODN releases.

Audio connected via Toslink to Onk705. HDMI connected to Pioneer 5070 directly. Each time I turn on the plasma & receiver the audio resets to HDMI. I've got to go into "Settings" then "Devices" and change the audio from HDMI to Dolby Digital. A friggin' pain in the arse.

I heard that jcalabria was able to change this setup with his Samdung box. I really wish it was possible with this new box. I built a macro with my Harmony, but sometimes it misses, then I have to go in and fix it again anyway.

I like the color, improved responsiveness & extra storage for sure.

Skid

Audio connected via Toslink to Onk705. HDMI connected to Pioneer 5070 directly. Each time I turn on the plasma & receiver the audio resets to HDMI. I've got to go into "Settings" then "Devices" and change the audio from HDMI to Dolby Digital. A friggin' pain in the arse.The TX-SR705 is an HDMI switching AVR--why are you using S/PDIF?

The TX-SR705 is an HDMI switching AVR--why are you using S/PDIF?

Maybe for the same reason I use that kind of setup - when I had HDMI from DVR (8300HDC) to receiver (Denon AVR-789) and from receiver to TV (Panasonic TH-58PZ700U), it appeared to work fine at first, but then, about once a day, while I am trying to watch something, DVR would freeze and require reboot to recover. It almost never freezes with S/PDIF setup (maybe a a total of twice in 2 years I had a corrupted recording that would cause an auto-reboot every time I tried to play it). Even if the receiver and/or receiver/TV combination is sending bad data over HDMI, there is no excuse for freezing like that. Would be interesting to know if 8640HDC suffers from similar issues.

There's an 8300HD running SARA in the living room of this house that's connected HDMI through a (Sony) AVR and it seems to work fine and I've got four devices switched through my Onkyo AVR, though none are Cisco/SA STBs. Seven different pieces of equipment from seven different manufacturers cobbled together with HDMI and all working smoothly for over three years (Mitsubishi panel, Onkyo AVR, TiVo, Xbox, PS3, RCA DVD recorder and Belkin HDMI switch). I'm a big HDMI fan :).

Just picked up a brand-spankin' new Cisco 8640 HDC today in Overland Park. (KC Metro)

Haven't had a ton of time with it yet.
First impressions
Boot-up time: 3:36
ODN countdown time: under :20 (L13-L1)
Black instead of silver (yay!)
Looks like we've got about 297GB of storage available
(which is nice since eSata support doesn't exist)
Better responsiveness

Just a quick browse through the diag pages and it appears as if there is not a way to fix the audio issue I've been having the last few ODN releases.

Audio connected via Toslink to Onk705. HDMI connected to Pioneer 5070 directly. Each time I turn on the plasma & receiver the audio resets to HDMI. I've got to go into "Settings" then "Devices" and change the audio from HDMI to Dolby Digital. A friggin' pain in the arse.

I heard that jcalabria was able to change this setup with his Samdung box. I really wish it was possible with this new box. I built a macro with my Harmony, but sometimes it misses, then I have to go in and fix it again anyway.

I like the color, improved responsiveness & extra storage for sure.

Skid

I picked up one yesterday and it's going back on Monday.

The picture is terrible, it lacks punch and color, looks very soft and I'm getting jaggies along with (not sure of term) pixelation or blocking on medium to fast motion.

Almost looks like I have a filter covering my screen as well.

HH

FYI: Spec sheets for Cisco 8640HDC - does not have an analog tuner:
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/7015626A.pdf
http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps10318/ps10348/G1699B-8600_Series_One_Sheet_Jan2009.pdf
Does NOT support MoCA for Multi-Room and DLNA to/fm PCs & Media Servers.

I wonder if the DTCP-IP Ethernet interface works to a PC for recording....
And whether the IEEE-1394 Firewire I/F works for recording to D-VHS & PCs....

It looks like the newly converted SARA areas are receiveing Navigator version 3.1.33. Seems no one but Charlotte and San Diego has the new version. They are still debgging it. Understand some repair patches will soon be released before any other divisions get the newer version. WOODY

The TX-SR705 is an HDMI switching AVR--why are you using S/PDIF?

Great question!
Right now, my preference is to keep settings independent on each HDMI input on the 5070 (2).
Damn...that confused me.

Let me clarify.
Currently I have a Panny BD30 BR player running through the 705, then onto the 5070 via HDMI. Besides the new 8640, the Panny is the only HDMI source I have, and the Panny has it's own settings.
Not very efficient. I know...but it works for me right now.

My guess is that the two sources (BR player & 8640) wouldn't be too far off as far as settings go, but you never know.

As always, things will change with the future.
I would really like to fix this audio issue though. The past two or possibly three ODN releases have all exhibited this issue.
Prior to that, ODN was working quite nicely with my setup AND eSATA was kick-arse. I'm not complaining too much, it's not like TWC promised that feature.

Anyway...I digress. Hope the long answer didn't bore you to death.

Skid

I picked up one yesterday and it's going back on Monday.

The picture is terrible, it lacks punch and color, looks very soft and I'm getting jaggies along with (not sure of term) pixelation or blocking on medium to fast motion.

Almost looks like I have a filter covering my screen as well.

HH

That stinks. I had just about the opposite reaction.
Was watching the Olympics last night and thought the picture
was the best I've seen so far. Keep in mind this is in very limited
use.
I'll get a chance to play around some more tonight & tomorrow.

Good luck HH!
Skid

Currently I have a Panny BD30 BR player running through the 705, then onto the 5070 via HDMI. Besides the new 8640, the Panny is the only HDMI source I have, and the Panny has it's own settings.
Not very efficient. I know...but it works for me right now.

My guess is that the two sources (BR player & 8640) wouldn't be too far off as far as settings go, but you never know.When using analog connections it makes sense to finely adjust settings for each input. Electrical differences between devices can result in different distortions of color and geometry which need to be corrected differently. In the case of HDMI, two devices decoding the same stream of MPEG video should create nearly identical bit streams as transmitted over HDMI (if not precisely identical); certainly there shouldn't be any difference that you could perceive. If that's not true, it's really stupid to make HDMI switching AVRs and most if not all high-end A/V-ophile oriented AVRs do it.

When using analog connections it makes sense to finely adjust settings for each input. Electrical differences between devices can result in different distortions of color and geometry which need to be corrected differently. In the case of HDMI, two devices decoding the same stream of MPEG video should create nearly identical bit streams as transmitted over HDMI (if not precisely identical); certainly there shouldn't be any difference that you could perceive. If that's not true, it's really stupid to make HDMI switching AVRs and most if not all high-end A/V-ophile oriented AVRs do it.

Very good point. In fact I may have to do some experimenting.
I spoke too quickly about the new Cisco 8640HDC not keeping the "Dolby Digital" setting when changing HDMI inputs. After I initially went into Setttings=>Devices and changed the audio from HDMI to Dolby Digital, it did in fact keep the setting.

No more need for a macro on the Harmony.
This is good news.

I may just try running the 8640 through the Onkyo and see how I like it.

Take care Michael
Skid

Cleveland SARA areas should start getting Navigator on March 8. They'll do it by box type. One box type at a time which means it will be a gradual conversion.

Cleveland SARA areas should start getting Navigator on March 8. They'll do it by box type. One box type at a time which means it will be a gradual conversion.

I am in Greensboro. This was the first SARA area converted to Navigator. The entire conversion process if no problems appear takes from four to six weeks based on our experience here. It went virtualy problem and glich free here due to our experienced team of engineers. Smooth as butter. Hope you have the same experience. WOODY

On the Navigator Conversion,

If you are able to talk to the right people and your TWC division is one of the better ones, you may be able to find out what make and model of boxes are being done first. You can post here if you know. This will help in preparation.

Jack

I am in Greensboro. This was the first SARA area converted to Navigator. The entire conversion process if no problems appear takes from four to six weeks based on our experience here. It went virtualy problem and glich free here due to our experienced team of engineers. Smooth as butter. Hope you have the same experience. WOODY

Our division is a legacy Passport system that was converted a long time ago.

I picked up one yesterday and it's going back on Monday.

The picture is terrible, it lacks punch and color, looks very soft and I'm getting jaggies along with (not sure of term) pixelation or blocking on medium to fast motion.

Almost looks like I have a filter covering my screen as well.

HH

Let us know what box you get in its place.

Jack

The TX-SR705 is an HDMI switching AVR--why are you using S/PDIF?

I have the same handshaking problem with both the 8300HDC and the new 8640HDC. I think it depends on your AVR but when I try to go all HDMI everything works fine until either the cable box or AVR is turned off then the cable box loses it's settings. In my case it is resolutions, if i set box up to output only 1080i it will revert back to auto when I turn either of them off. The problem with keeping the setting on auto all the time means first obviously changing channels takes forever and sometimes during the resolution change in the cable box the picture gets caught up and flickers on and off (along with the sound) until I either change to a HD channel then back to SD channel (which doesn't always work) or power off either the cable box or AVR.
It is very annoying and so I have been going HDMI to TV then optical cable from cable box to AVR which worked flawlessly with the 8300HDC but have seen a few hiccups so far with 8640HDC. I have done my first manual reboot since the initial boot up when I got it on Friday so we will see if maybe it needed a kick in the pants:) Oh and just fyi, my AVR is soundbar/subwoofer system Sony HT-CT100 and TV is Sony Bravia 46S5100. Oh and also what TWC probably doesn't think about or care about anyway is that not being able to go HDMI from TV to AVR and plug components HDMI into AVR means that I have to use the same crappy setup for Blu-ray/DVD player which means no HD audio on movies for my family and it also renders my AVR as a HDMI switcher like it was built for worthless. THANKS AGAIN TWC!

steve1022...

I too was having the issues with HDMI with the 8300HDC.
Although I wasn't having trouble keeping the resolutions.
My issue was the audio setting reverting back to HDMI
instead of Dolby Digital. The was either when I switched
to a different HDMI input on my Pioneer or when powering
the Pioneer on/off.

I no longer have that issue with the 8640.
I hope you are able to resolve your resolution change
issue.

Just curious... HuskerHarley noted he had a noticeable
drop in PQ. How would you describe the differences
(if any) between your 8300HDC and the 8640HDC?

Any other findings, comments, etc.?
I believe we're on the same TWC system/headend.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.
Best of luck steve.

Skid

steve1022...

I too was having the issues with HDMI with the 8300HDC.
Although I wasn't having trouble keeping the resolutions.
My issue was the audio setting reverting back to HDMI
instead of Dolby Digital. The was either when I switched
to a different HDMI input on my Pioneer or when powering
the Pioneer on/off.

I no longer have that issue with the 8640.
I hope you are able to resolve your resolution change
issue.

Just curious... HuskerHarley noted he had a noticeable
drop in PQ. How would you describe the differences
(if any) between your 8300HDC and the 8640HDC?

Any other findings, comments, etc.?
I believe we're on the same TWC system/headend.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.
Best of luck steve.

Skid

I already tried to use my HDMI to AVR and it had the same problems as the other box. I think the problem may only be with certain AVR's as others don't seem to have any problems.

Picture quality seems about the same to me but I had noticed I was getting some pixelation sometimes ecspecially when first tuning to a station or coming off pause but I did a reboot on it to make sure that the initial boot wasn't corrupted somehow and haven't had time to see the results yet. I am at work but will be watching closely when I get home.

does anyone have any button dances or special inputs to gain any special menus, or easy reboot methods instead of having to pull the power cord??

thanks.

does anyone have any button dances or special inputs to gain any special menus, or easy reboot methods instead of having to pull the power cord??

thanks.

Some models of TWC-Navigator boxes will reboot if you hold the power button in until the word "Boot" appears on the display. All Navigator boxes should reboot by holding down the Vol+, and Vol-, at the same time, than pressing Info on the box. Release when the word "Boot" appears on the display.

This is called a "Warm Boot" reboot.

Jack

The Samsungs - at least the 3090 - can be rebooted remotely by entering the Samsung diagnostics (Hold [Select] for several seconds, then release and press [Up]). Then scroll down to "Reboot STB" on the menu.

does anyone have any button dances or special inputs to gain any special menus, or easy reboot methods instead of having to pull the power cord??

thanks.

Some models of TWC-Navigator boxes will reboot if you hold the power button in until the word "Boot" appears on the display. All Navigator boxes should reboot by holding down the Vol+, and Vol-, at the same time, than pressing Info on the box. Release when the word "Boot" appears on the display.

This is called a "Warm Boot" reboot.

Jack

does anyone have any button dances or special inputs to gain any special menus, or easy reboot methods instead of having to pull the power cord??

thanks.

To get to diags menu which shows your ODN version and lots of other stuff, while watching a channel you hold SELECT down on the remote until you see flashing icon on the box display( should take roughly 10 seconds or so) then press the down button. You will see DIAG on the box and a few seconds later the diag screen will come up over the show you're watching. scrolling instructions will also be there on the bottom.

SKID,

I had a chance to check out the PQ after another reboot and I no longer noticed the slight pixelation that would come and go. I can't really tell if PQ is better but it certainly isn't any worse than the old box.

I have been so irritated by the loss of the Sort by Favorites feature, that I wrote an email to Time Warner Cable Executive Response Center (twc.cotp [at] twcable.com) regarding the loss, and asking for some sort of an explanation. What I got a week later was a form letter in the mail saying that "the decision to make these feature changes was not an easy one for us, and we understand their importance to you. These changes were made after careful review of feature usage and customer input via various sources. By doing these changes, we are able to still offer great DVR features and continue looking for future ways to increase the user friendliness of our DVR boxes."

Yeah, sure.

They closed the letter by saying that "they understand these explanations may not ease your unhappiness about DVR feature updates and changes" so they offered me a year of DVR service for free. I thought about it, and a year of a DVR box that frustrates me every time I use it (whether it be the time spent looking for something to watch, or the irritating switching of resolutions when you switch channels, or the many other "great DVR features" seems to be a year of getting nothing for free. I started looking at the satellite providers, and while not wanting to pollute this thread with satellite comparisons, I wonder if anyone else detailing their problems with these DVRs has come to the brink of chucking them? It seems to me like this DVR does less than the DVR I had from Time Warner 8 years ago when I first got one. Am I off base here?

Time Warner here is notorious for lousy customer service and lack of information. The CSR's don't even know what Navigator is and half the time they have no clue about anything going on with the line up. I've never talked to a CSR that had the slightest technical knowledge either. One time a customer of mine was having ClearQAM issues and I called TWC to confirm what channel designations we could find them on. She had no idea what a QAM channel was and just kept telling me the customer needed a digital box to get her locals in HD... ugh! So, I know where you are coming from with the BS form letter.

Now, problem for me is that Time Warner in my division beats satellite in everyway as far as content & price is concerned. If I could get a tech savvy DVR like a Tivo that gave me access to PPV and VOD and was as reliable as my cable set top with SDV, then I'd gladly get one. I've looked at and compared satellite to what I'm getting and there is no comparison. I'm not against satelite by any means, if it works for you then I say go for it. However, my division has over 100 HD channels and all the networks I care about. We only lack the Viacom HD networks and I can't see what the hold up is there.

My main and only beef is with the ancient DVR software (SARA) and equipment. I really would like to give Naviagtor a spin so I can compare the two, but know that my ideal situation would be a third party box that gives me that functionality I so desire.

Shander, let us know what you do.

I wonder if anyone else detailing their problems with these DVRs has come to the brink of chucking them?

Sort by favorites was my last straw too. That's why I sent my cable boxes back and got a Moxi and a Mate. No regrets. A more expensive entry price but the ease of use and feature set were worth it. Not only can you hide the channels you don't want but it has a separate channel list that's automatically populated by channels you watch most frequently. So you get the best of both worlds.

Of course being this is TWC we are dealing with, after sending the hardware back they then screwed up my billing adjustment three times and then canceled my digital service while attempting to correct their previous errors.

It's still fun to watch this thread to see how or when things get better (or don't) for Navigator, because like it or not there's no escaping TWC for me unless I move far away.

At least we have some good news with the TWC DVR boxes,

Improved Searching is coming in a future Navigator upate and will include Guide Filtering. You will be able to have the IPG display just Theme channels, HD channels, Subscribed Channels and Favorites, so in a way, Sort By Favorites is coming back.

But at the rate TWC is going with updates, God doesn't know when this is going to happen. Many customers are tired of waiting for new features on the TWC-Navigator Guide when other companies have had them available for years, and that is what sucks!

Jack

It's probably not possible and web search finds nothing but does anyone know if you can dim the clock display on 8640HDC? That thing is seriously bright and sits right below my tv and is distracting. Didn't have that problem with the 8300HDC.

It's probably not possible and web search finds nothing but does anyone know if you can dim the clock display on 8640HDC? That thing is seriously bright and sits right below my tv and is distracting. Didn't have that problem with the 8300HDC.

I wish I could dim the indicator light on my Samsung 3260. I don't think you can dim the display.

I hope we see another update soon in San Diego but there are times when ODN v3.2.0_15 does behave but there are times when it clearly doesn't work.

Tivo took a shot at Navigator in their press event today:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/03/tivo-live-35top.jpg

"Converged cable and VoD on the TiVo box. Will be rolling out in 2nd quarter to all of RCN's markets. "Better than FiOS, and miles ahead of Time Warner Cable."

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/life-from-tivos-one-box-press-event/

Yup I saw that and laughed. Miles ahead - more like light years. However, This Tivo announcement was mostly updates - nothing they said was groundbreaking unless you are an RCN subscriber. Updated interface, same VOD offerings (no Hulu), etc.

The swipe at TWC is fine, but until Tivo can offer PPV/VOD support it's still not a fair comparison in that respect.

Overall, the TiVo announcement comes off to me as a FAIL - I am officially not considering Tivo. Maybe if DirecTV gets their act together and picks up some much needed HD content, I will look at it again when the DirecTivo comes out.

SKID,

I had a chance to check out the PQ after another reboot and I no longer noticed the slight pixelation that would come and go. I can't really tell if PQ is better but it certainly isn't any worse than the old box.

steve...
Thanks for the update. Much appreciated.

Skid

Thought I was out of the hole with the "channel not available" error as 24 finally recorded last night after a month of not working. Just checked now and Lost did not record. Gah, so frustrating.

I have no idea why you'd see that on a local (non-SDV) channel. Weird

Tivo took a shot at Navigator in their press event today:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/03/tivo-live-35top.jpg

"Converged cable and VoD on the TiVo box. Will be rolling out in 2nd quarter to all of RCN's markets. "Better than FiOS, and miles ahead of Time Warner Cable."

http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/life-from-tivos-one-box-press-event/

Instead of Navigator they should have shown a Time Warner box running SARA! Now that would have gotten some laughs!

Instead of Navigator they should have shown a Time Warner box running SARA! Now that would have gotten some laughs!

PRICELESS!!!!!!!

What about that, Glenn Britt?!!!

Jack

Instead of Navigator they should have shown a Time Warner box running SARA! Now that would have gotten some laughs!

Ah but that wouldn't work as well. Remember SARA is an old Cisco property included with hardware that's used by some other cable providers.

Whereas Navigator represents the very best of what TWC (the second largest cableco in the country) offers!

Yup I saw that and laughed. Miles ahead - more like light years. However, This Tivo announcement was mostly updates - nothing they said was groundbreaking unless you are an RCN subscriber. Updated interface, same VOD offerings (no Hulu), etc.

The swipe at TWC is fine, but until Tivo can offer PPV/VOD support it's still not a fair comparison in that respect.

Overall, the TiVo announcement comes off to me as a FAIL - I am officially not considering Tivo. Maybe if DirecTV gets their act together and picks up some much needed HD content, I will look at it again when the DirecTivo comes out.

Directv will get that new satellite up soon which will allow for a ton of HD channels. They should be good for 200 HD channels plus a bunch of HD locals.

Many customers are tired of waiting for new features on the TWC-Navigator Guide when other companies have had them available for years, and that is what sucks!

Jack

Years? Try decades! Dish Network has had a customizable program guide & keyboard search since the mid 90's. I still have a program guide with NO search & zero customization. It's 2010 for Christ sakes and the SARA guide is the best Time Warner can do in our division??? The other problem is hardware. Even if they update my SA8300 to Navigator it still can't display a 16:9 guide and don't even think about getting an HD guide...

Ok so quick question, I tried searching and either I am not putting in the search terms correctly, or I am just missing the information.

Time Warner, SW Ohio, formerly Adelphia and I just got new cable boxes yesterday, the 8300. Is there a way to make navigator fullscreen? When I punch up the guide, it is in 4:3 aspect ratio instead of 16:9 and therefore does not show alot of upcoming shows in the guide. Is there a way to fix this?

Thanks

Ok so quick question, I tried searching and either I am not putting in the search terms correctly, or I am just missing the information.

Time Warner, SW Ohio, formerly Adelphia and I just got new cable boxes yesterday, the 8300. Is there a way to make navigator fullscreen? When I punch up the guide, it is in 4:3 aspect ratio instead of 16:9 and therefore does not show alot of upcoming shows in the guide. Is there a way to fix this?

Thanks

The 8300 is incapable of displaying a widescreen guide.

The 8300 is incapable of displaying a widescreen guide.

It could switch to stretch when you hit the guide button and then scale the corner video appropriately... They would need to change the fonts so that 'stretch' looked unstretched.

xnappo

Damn, ok thanks!

Now I just got to keep reading though this thread to help with resolution changes and the stupid HDCP errors.

Thanks BenJF3

One of the TW guys on Twitter said he's pretty sure a 16:9 guide is in the works. He said he would check on the schedule, etc, but I'm still waiting for an update

Just picked up a brand-spankin' new Cisco 8640 HDC today in Overland Park. (KC Metro)

Haven't had a ton of time with it yet.
First impressions
Boot-up time: 3:36
ODN countdown time: under :20 (L13-L1)
Black instead of silver (yay!)
Looks like we've got about 297GB of storage available
(which is nice since eSata support doesn't exist)
Better responsiveness

Just a quick browse through the diag pages and it appears as if there is not a way to fix the audio issue I've been having the last few ODN releases.

Audio connected via Toslink to Onk705. HDMI connected to Pioneer 5070 directly. Each time I turn on the plasma & receiver the audio resets to HDMI. I've got to go into "Settings" then "Devices" and change the audio from HDMI to Dolby Digital. A friggin' pain in the arse.

I heard that jcalabria was able to change this setup with his Samdung box. I really wish it was possible with this new box. I built a macro with my Harmony, but sometimes it misses, then I have to go in and fix it again anyway.

I like the color, improved responsiveness & extra storage for sure.

Skid

I picked up one yesterday and it's going back on Monday.

The picture is terrible, it lacks punch and color, looks very soft and I'm getting jaggies along with (not sure of term) pixelation or blocking on medium to fast motion.

Almost looks like I have a filter covering my screen as well.

I returned the Cisco and got another, as well as a SA so I could do a A-B comparison, to verify what I thought I was seeing.

The cisco is definitely lacking contrast, color and basically overall punch, like I stated above, it looks like there is a filter on it.

The SA wins in the picture department and cisco in the 320GB vs 160GB in the SA.

What a joke TWC is here in Lincoln, when I asked for another Cisco and a SA so I could do this direct comparison on my Pioneer Elite, the clerk asked why I wanted both boxes, I told him I was trying to verify and justify the Cisco's lack of picture quality in favor of the larger capacity hard-drive, he stated it was the same size as the SA, 160GB, I tell him wrong, it's 320GB, he raises his voice and Tell's me again that I was wrong.
I said, get your boss and tell him that I'm willing to wager triple my bill VS a free year of service that you are wrong. He goes and gets a Tech that tells me I'm wrong, So I challenge him to any wager that he can come up with that he's wrong as well, he thanks me for doing business with TWC and exits the room!!

HH

It could switch to stretch when you hit the guide button and then scale the corner video appropriately... They would need to change the fonts so that 'stretch' looked unstretched.

xnappo

I was going to get into details on how to set the box to native which would stretch the guide to fill the screen, but on HD channels the guide would still be 4:3. I left my answer at that because technically the box just doesn't have resolution for the guide to fill a 16:9 format.

I was going to get into details on how to set the box to native which would stretch the guide to fill the screen, but on HD channels the guide would still be 4:3. I left my answer at that because technically the box just doesn't have resolution for the guide to fill a 16:9 format.

I believe you are correct... on the 8300s there is no way to stretch the guide on HD channels.

Those that want to stretch the guide should be careful what they wish for... one of the common dislikes for the Samsung boxes is that they do stretch the 4:3 native guide to fill the 16:9 screen. Most would prefer that it didn't, and it cannot be disabled. I much prefer the "floating" 4:3 banner/guide on my SA/Cisco 4250HDC over the stretched version my Samsung 3090 displays. It's actually more the stretched banners I dislike... they look awful stretched with the prominent channel logos all distorted. The text itself doesn't really look too bad.

Of course, the answer is that TW needs to develop a native 16:9 guide for those boxes that have 16:9 graphics engines in them - the newer Samsungs and (I'm assuming) the SA/Cisco 8600s.

Don't worry, Time Warner will have a 16x9 HD Guide by 2018...

Don't worry, Time Warner will have a 16x9 HD Guide by 2018...

Still haven't lost your optimism!:p

LOL - Look at it this way. Navigator has been out in some form for over 3 years now. I'm talking actually deployed for consumer use. It was in development for a few years before that as well, but I'm referring to the initial deployment in Lincoln which took place in March 2007. What's changed? Why aren't all systems switched over? 3 years is AMPLE time to get the bugs worked out. Our division was slated for deployment in 2008 then bumped back to Jan 2009 and I haven't heard anything since the confirmed it was "still being tested internally". Thus I can conclude that the SARA replacement of Navigator is still bug ridden. If it's not, then what's the hold up? They've been "testing" it (which just means select employees have it) and no word on anything after over a year?

I'm slightly worried because we could get a virtually perfect version of Navigator and if it lacks eSata support the 8300 becomes worthless to me. The standard 20 hours of time just doesn't cut it. I'd almost have to look at other options.

That said, I still want to see Navigator in action. I was in Charlotte two weeks ago. Stayed at The Drury (nice diggs!) and watch locals via ClearQAM and was impressed, but neither TV in our suite had a cable box and there I did not experience it...

The problem is the following:

Techno-geeks like us on these forums are such a microcosm of the macrocosm. We represent an isolated group of maybe a few hundred people, with only a handful who post regularly requesting new TWC-Navigator features. Unfortunately, there aren't enough of us to get a general public consensus out who are calling TWC requesting that engineering add better search functions and easier navigation for TWC-Navigator.

The sad truth is that TWC does not see the lack of Navigator features in comparison to other guides as hurting their business. There aren't really a lot of people who are canceling TWC because of a lack of IPG features. However, there WERE tons of people who canceled TWC back in the fall of 2006-2007 because at that time Navigator was a POS that didn't work right. TWC right now seems to be more interested in making Navigator work better with bug fixes than adding new features.

However, that could change as TIVO and other competition ram the lack of features in Navigator to the general public. When the general public starts to see and call day after day after day showing the evidence that, "We are dropping TWC because TIVO has an IPG that is light-years more modern and easier to use." That's when TWC will get the ball rolling on new features. When business is hurting enough that their competition is taking over the IPG market and TWC starts losing subs specifically because people are complaining IN MASSES that Navigator lacks basic 2010 features, you will see more progressive improvements in the guide.

The more that general public populations bug the crap out of TWC for new features and this results in people dropping TWC for a more modern program guide is the only way that TWC is going to "get it."

TIVO needs to keep taking shots at TWC-Navigator. In fact, the whole competition needs to be taking shots at Navigator, Direct TV, Dish, TIVO, U-Verse, to force TWC to add more features to the guide that people want to see.

Jack

One of the TW guys on Twitter said he's pretty sure a 16:9 guide is in the works. He said he would check on the schedule, etc, but I'm still waiting for an update

No disrespect intended to your source and I am sure that is cool information. However, the problem is that everything is rumor, rumor, speculation. All this Keyword Search, Guide Filtering, Manual Recording. A lot of us are just tired of wating. And we can't get any kind of answers from the divisions as to WHEN we will actually see some of this new stuff on our boxes.

I've heard the same things:

"A friend of a friend of a top TWC exec said Keyword Search is coming."

"My cousin heard from a top source that TWC is trying to make Navigator even better than Passport."

"Soon, you're going have an awesome guide! Just be patient."

They can't even do approximations. TWC's update schedule ranges from six months to three years and that's a very frustrating experience for us on the board, because their are very few options available for power users with the Navigator Guide as it is. Talk doesn't mean that much. When we wake up one morning and see improvements in the Navigator Search engine available to each and every user in the updated divisions, than it means something.

At least we would ask for a time frame as to when some of this stuff is going to appear? Second Quarter, Third Quarter, and what specific Navigator Guide improvements will customer's see? Just produce action!!!!

Jack

I to am growing tired of waiting for new Navigator features that we hear are comeing or being developed but never show up. It's sad a company with Time Warners resources cannot produce a guide that is good as Passport was 5 years ago. They should have purchased Passport when they had the chance. They could have rebranded it Navigation if they wanted their own name on it. As long as it worked like the old Passport everyone would have been happy. It's just sad and shame on you Time Warner. WOODY

No disrespect intended to your source and I am sure that is cool information. However, the problem is that everything is rumor, rumor, speculation. All this Keyword Search, Guide Filtering, Manual Recording. A lot of us are just tired of wating. And we can't get any kind of answers from the divisions as to WHEN we will actually see some of this new stuff on our boxes.

Of course but it's this guy (http://twitter.com/AlexTWC), VP of Public Relations. I would hope he'd know what's up.

Of course but it's this guy (http://twitter.com/AlexTWC), VP of Public Relations. I would hope he'd know what's up.

Even if he's speaking the truth it makes no difference in the larger scheme of things. TWC execs consider something is released as soon as it hits one market.

When that's accomplished they move on. Unfortunately their deployment doesn't, and whatever fancy new feature they are currently buzzing around sits and languishes in deployment hell until it's well past it's use by date.

Only the Samsung 3090, 3260, 3270 boxes can support a native 16:9 guide. The newer cisco boxes have the capability to render the guide in 960x540 which is a 16:9 resolution.

Of course but it's this guy (http://twitter.com/AlexTWC), VP of Public Relations. I would hope he'd know what's up.

His Twitter page says New York as his location,

But I read somewhere the Mr. Dudley lives in Connecticut, which is serviced by Comcast!!!! LOL!!!

And the bulds for Navigator are done in test labs located in the Colorado Mountains somewhere! Another Comcast area! I think the MDN build for Navigator that I have, MDN 2.4.6_19 says Mt Sherman. This is a mountain range in Colorado! Colorado is Comcast. A friend I've known for ten years lives in the area.

Jack

I got a recorded call from TWC today in KC saying tonight or tomorrow night that my box is getting updated so I assume i am gettting 3.1.3_15 like the others on here. Once thing that she said I haven't heard here before but we will have "LOOK BACK" so if you missed a show yesterday you can see it today (Also mentioned a list of 5 or 6 other things like remote DVR changes).
Does anyone know anything about this Look Back? and what are the biggest changes for this new ODN version?

Honestly, I wish Time Warner would stop with the gimick featues like Start Over and Look Back - I have a DVR for that. I'm not saying it's a bad feature, but I really wish they put out a top notch DVR FIRST then add these options later. Personally, I'd like to see them just add VOD for the Start Over/Look Back Channels instead of wasting code space on the item as a feature.

I got a recorded call from TWC today in KC saying tonight or tomorrow night that my box is getting updated so I assume i am gettting 3.1.3_15 like the others on here. Once thing that she said I haven't heard here before but we will have "LOOK BACK" so if you missed a show yesterday you can see it today (Also mentioned a list of 5 or 6 other things like remote DVR changes).
Does anyone know anything about this Look Back? and what are the biggest changes for this new ODN version?

I may be wong but you will likely get ODN 3.1.33. Thats what most SARA areas are getting. The 3233.15 version is just still to darn buggy. We have prime time vod on demand which is a sort of look back. WOODY

Does anyone know anything about this Look Back?

It's similar to VOD except it is accessed directly from your channel pop-up menu. TWC store copies of prime time episodes for a limited period that can be accessed instantly without having to wait for the VOD channel (if it's available on there) to be refreshed with new content.

So say you miss House at 8pm. When you tune in to Fox at say, 9.30 pm, in the Look Back pop-up menu you'll see that night's episode available to watch. The catch is that FF is disabled.

The other catch is (if it's similar to other TWC services) is that it probably won't be enabled on channels you actually watch.

I think this was another technology salvaged from the original Mystro Navigator project back when it was all about creating a network DVR.

edit: I had to go and search for something to refresh my memory about this and I found this article from when the service was announced:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/122960-Time_Warner_We_ll_Store_Shows_for_Playback.php

Dated?
4/9/2006

Hands up if 4 years was enough time for TWC to get it to your area. :D

I may be wong but you will likely get ODN 3.1.33. Thats what most SARA areas are getting. The 3233.15 version is just still to darn buggy. We have prime time vod on demand which is a sort of look back. WOODY

We already have 3.1.3_3 so I was thinking the progression for others has been to move to 3.1.3_15 next that others have gotten. We already have prime time VOD here. The recording mention lots of new stuff this update supports like....multi-room DVR, remote DVR access, Look Back and about 3 other things that I can't remember and it was a call I took so I didn't get it on voicemail recording so I could go back to it :(

It's similar to VOD except it is accessed directly from your channel pop-up menu. TWC store copies of prime time episodes for a limited period that can be accessed instantly without having to wait for the VOD channel (if it's available on there) to be refreshed with new content.

So say you miss House at 8pm. When you tune in to Fox at say, 9.30 pm, in the Look Back pop-up menu you'll see that night's episode available to watch. The catch is that FF is disabled.

The other catch is (if it's similar to other TWC services) is that it probably won't be enabled on channels you actually watch.

I think this was another technology salvaged from the original Mystro Navigator project back when it was all about creating a network DVR.

edit: I had to go and search for something to refresh my memory about this and I found this article from when the service was announced:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/122960-Time_Warner_We_ll_Store_Shows_for_Playback.php

Dated?
4/9/2006

Hands up if 4 years was enough time for TWC to get it to your area. :D

Thank you for the info. You're right it probably won't be used on the big channels that are normally watched.
I am actually really nervous because I haven't had this new 8640HDC for a week yet and am worried they are going to brick it or something.

I am actually really nervous because I haven't had this new 8640HDC for a week yet and am worried they are going to brick it or something.

The easy solution to that is just unplug the coax before you go to bed. Check around the internet in the morning or on AVS in your local thread for any disasters and if it all seems uneventful just plug the coax back in. You'll be updated as soon as the box is detected most likely.

You can still watch recordings without the coax hooked up.

I'm actually fine with taking an update provided two things :

1) I don't lose the recordings I have

2) I keep my eSata support

I crave things like MRV and remote management, so if we get a big deployment with those options, that would be nice. I'm OK with keeping my SA8300, but I really wish I could get a 16:9 HD guide. However, I'll trade that for functionality.

Charlotte and San Diego both have 3.2.0_15 for about 6 or 7 weeks or so now... haven't heard of a newer version than that but I haven't paid a lot of attention recently. San Diego has had issues with it but things have been relatively quiet here since the update.

The big feature add-on is remote DVR scheduling, which is being tested by Charlotte TW employees but not rolled out to the public yet.

On my Samsung 3090, it was loaded along with Samsung v4.3.5. Noticeable changes, some of which can be attributed to the Samsung update:


"Sort by Favorites" feature removed
Search starts at the currently watched program
"Additional Showings" search feature added to guide listings
Now continues to buffer the background tuner
HDMI output no longer reverts to 720p irrespective of resolution menu settings (long standing 3090 bug - now I can use HDMI again!)
FINALLY fixed the missed CBS/FOX HD recordings bug in the 3090 (a bug apparently limited to Charlotte and NYC 3090s).
Totally screwed up the FF/REW functions on the 3090.

Dated?
4/9/2006

Hands up if 4 years was enough time for TWC to get it to your area. :D

Ha. I remember first hearing about Start Over in 06 or 07 as well when I was in Myrtle Beach. I'm hoping since they got SDV and Navigator now they'll start being able to move faster since everyone will be getting upgraded and set on the same path.

I'm actually fine with taking an update provided two things :

1) I don't lose the recordings I have

2) I keep my eSata support

I crave things like MRV and remote management, so if we get a big deployment with those options, that would be nice. I'm OK with keeping my SA8300, but I really wish I could get a 16:9 HD guide. However, I'll trade that for functionality.

Those two concerns are big ones... and interrelated (better chance of losing eSATA recordings than internal recordings with any update)... but not a concern for ODN updates since eSATA has NEVER worked consistently with it. I do love my 320GB Sammie, though, and it's the reason I have put up with the workarounds needed for the HDMI resolution and FOX/CBS recording issues.

Well, if TWC reverts me to a 160GB HDD with a 20 Hour limit, I will have almost no use for the DVR because it will be filled within a week. They can add all the best features in the world, but if I don't have the capacity to utilize them, then the DVR is worthless to me. I would likely perform a transplant. I'd remove and image the existing internal to my desktop and then transfer it to a 1TB and replace the cable ops HDD. It would be a PITA, but worth it.

The SA 8300HD, 8300HDC, and 8240HDC aren't able to render a 16:9 guide. There are no plans to produce a 16:9 guide for those boxes.

Rochester will be getting Navigator on April 5th. It will be done box type by box type. It's perfectly normal during the transition to have one box on SARA and another on Navigator. Austin will be getting it soon since they're going to be deploying Samsung boxes with ODN.

Looks like Albany is starting to get Navigator on the 4250HDC's.

Rochester will be getting Navigator on April 5th... Austin will be getting it soon... Looks like Albany is starting to get Navigator on the 4250HDC's...

That should give us a surge of new people hunting for info :cool:

Well, that means Syracuse/Rome/Utica will start seeing it soon. Historically, we are the last division to get any upgrades. Such has been the case with SDV and the HD content, but not too long after those divisions got them, we did too.

Well, if TWC reverts me to a 160GB HDD with a 20 Hour limit, I will have almost no use for the DVR because it will be filled within a week. They can add all the best features in the world, but if I don't have the capacity to utilize them, then the DVR is worthless to me. I would likely perform a transplant. I'd remove and image the existing internal to my desktop and then transfer it to a 1TB and replace the cable ops HDD. It would be a PITA, but worth it.

It may be comparing apples and oranges, but take heart. I had a very similar hardware setup to you, but with Passport, and when they upgraded me to Navigator, I lost no recordings (internal or external), and the external drive actually works better than under Passport.

Hopefully, your conversion will be as happy.

-barry

You probably have SA 8300HD anf an external hard drive still works with Passport or Navigator. External hard drives won't work with SA 8300HDC or Samsung boxes.

Are there ny secrets to speeding up the Navigator. Mine is so slow to change channels or to bring up the guide.

Are there ny secrets to speeding up the Navigator. Mine is so slow to change channels or to bring up the guide.

Get a new one or make liberal use of the pg +/- buttons. Welcome to the the excellence of Time Warner's developers!

Get a new one or make liberal use of the pg +/- buttons. Welcome to the the excellence of Time Warner's developers!

Is there a newer model out than the 8300HDC?

Are there ny secrets to speeding up the Navigator. Mine is so slow to change channels or to bring up the guide.


Change the resolution to only show 1080i. That way the tuner doesn't have to keep switching from one resolution to another between channels. Works for me.

Is there a newer model out than the 8300HDC?

Donot know if this will work for you. I traded my 8300hd in for a brand new 8240hdc. I must stress it was brand new. The speed of Navigator on it was twice as fast as my 8300hd.. My cousin had a older 8240hdc when we were converted and his box was very slow.. He traded it in for a new and I repeat again new right out of the box recently mgf 8240hdc and he got the same speed boost. The newer boxes must have faster processors or more ram or something. It worked for us. WOODY

Donot know if this will work for you. I traded my 8300hd in for a brand new 8240hdc. I must stress it was brand new. The speed of Navigator on it was twice as fast as my 8300hd.. My cousin had a older 8240hdc when we were converted and his box was very slow.. He traded it in for a new and I repeat again new right out of the box recently mgf 8240hdc and he got the same speed boost. The newer boxes must have faster processors or more ram or something. It worked for us. WOODY

Just keep in mind that the HDC boxes may not support eSATA from what I'm hearing. However, that is still divison and version dependent. Another forum member confirmed for me that in Charlotte, the 8300HDC does not support eSATA, while the 8300HD does.

I'd like to see someone with an 8640HDC report if they are out there.

I hope it's true about albany getting navigator on april 5th we won't be far off ....just like ben said ! I am now going on my 3rd tivo (SERIES 3)and it's starting to become a nightmare with all the freezing and rebooting the past two dvr's have done on me. :mad:

abyss,

Albany already has Navigator and one person reports that 8640 DVR's are available. However, bug reports are already being reported as well. Rochester is scheduled for April rollout. I was just reading up on Albany forums when you posted this. I made a detailed post in the Syracuse/Utica Thread HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18253138#post18253138).

Oops i meant rochester...thanks for pointing that out .So how long you figure it will be before central ny actually sees the much maligned and despised navigator ?

I would estimate that if Albany & Rochester get deployed without too much trouble, then we should have it by the end of Summer (or at least start seeing it). Right now, I'm going to register on the forum in Albany and see if I can get version numbers and such. If it's true that 8600 Series boxes are being deployed, I really want to get my hands on one to try. Hopefully, our local divisions will update their hardware as well. If all else fails, I will hang on to my trusty old 8300HD.

Let me know how things work out on how your research goes for albany equipment updates or any other updates for that matter.I am personally grown tired of swapping my tivo boxes i now know how some subs have felt about navigator not meshing with there cable lineup. It's been so bad i feel like my boxes have had poltergeist in the last two i had.

Hopefully TWC will totally revamp their entire channel line up when Navigator comes out here, but that's probably wishful thinking. That's one of mine and most other peoples biggest gripes here: Our channels are all over the place. They really need to do an overhaul and provide better channel alignment. Right now, the SD version is on one channel number, the HD on a totally different number and the On Demand on another STILL! Make the damn numbers consistent! Leave the analogs and move all the HDs to corresponding 1+ the channel number assignments. Then Make a VOD Tier with the same numbers starting at 2 etc. Either that, or make the damn guide customizable! Let Navigator delete the duplicates.

Hopefully TWC will totally revamp their entire channel line up when Navigator comes out here, but that's probably wishful thinking. That's one of mine and most other peoples biggest gripes here: Our channels are all over the place. They really need to do an overhaul and provide better channel alignment. Right now, the SD version is on one channel number, the HD on a totally different number and the On Demand on another STILL! Make the damn numbers consistent! Leave the analogs and move all the HDs to corresponding 1+ the channel number assignments. Then Make a VOD Tier with the same numbers starting at 2 etc. Either that, or make the damn guide customizable! Let Navigator delete the duplicates.On both San Diego cable systems, HD channels are usually the two low-order digits of the standard def channel plus 700: NBC is channel 7, NBC HD is 707, Syfy is 57, Syfy HD is 757, NatGeo is 218, NatGeo HD is 718, etc. The premium HD channels (HBO HD, Showtime HD, etc) have two channel numbers, one in line with their tier and one in the 700s. Obviously the 700s scheme can only work for 100 channels. VOD channels are not aligned to their linear counterparts.

Change the resolution to only show 1080i. That way the tuner doesn't have to keep switching from one resolution to another between channels. Works for me.

Under Settings, go to Banner Duration and set it to Medium. If that is still too slow, set it to Fast.

Jack

I don't think any of that is his issue, but just the inherent fact that Navigator ODN is just horribly slow. Not much you can do other than try and get a Samsung box which will improve things at least a little bit.

I don't think any of that is his issue, but just the inherent fact that Navigator ODN is just horribly slow. Not much you can do other than try and get a Samsung box which will improve things at least a little bit.

My ODN NAVIGATOR with my new 8240hdc is as fast as my old SARA unit was. I will agree the older boxes were slow but the new ones are getting Navigator up to speed. WOODY

This is a carryover post from the local forum. Albany, NY has been getting "Gatored" and posts are cropping up about initial reaction.

Well, here is the consensus so far from AlbanyHDTV Forum members.

Brad writes: I really like the new interface so much easier on the eyes, seriously. and if you turn off 720p, and ony have 480p 480i and 1080 i checks it wont freeze up at much and channel surfing though hd channels is ALLOT more smooth then.

I DO HAVE ONE MAJOR complaint, and this goes out to all you audio buffs like myself. I have a onkyo HTS-5200 7.1 surround sound system. and previously I had a Optical cable for audio going from the cable box to the surround sound. I was able to get Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound perfectly fine on all the HD channels, and now after this interface update it no longer sends Dolby Digital 5.1 o my surround sound, and the audio is really bad now, Im going to try to call time warner to see what thats all about. Is anyone else not getting Dolby Digital send to there reciever? my Receiver is set to automatically detect it, and it used to do it fine, but like I said after this update t no longer does that.


jrfny writes: If I had to describe this new interface in one word I'd say HORRIBLE. I can luckily use more than one word though. The only real positive is that it's fairly easy on the eyes. The new interface is painfully slow and clunky. The older one was much more user friendly. This one actually makes me want to avoid watching television. It's that bad. The two things that really bother me are the reminder timers for this one and when you change channels. The picture is often a second or two behind the channel you're tuning to. It's too slow. The timer reminder for the previous interface was. If you wanted to see something all you had to do was find it in the guide and press select if you wanted to see it later. Finding stuff to watch at a later date now is more of a hassle than anything else. To say I'm disappointed would be a severe understatement.

So one person likes it somewhat and one person hates it while both say it has bugs. I'm trying to get a consenus of what hardware they are using with it as that plays a major role.

Change the resolution to only show 1080i. That way the tuner doesn't have to keep switching from one resolution to another between channels. Works for me.
Unfortunately, you are also throwing away the higher update rate benefits of 720p.
Since 1080i takes TWO frames to output every pixel in an image and
720p only takes ONE frame, you end up throwing away HALF the pixels.

Best setting is 1080i and 720p with 480i and 480p disabled so that they are converted to 720p.
Hence HDTV only changes resolution when going to/fm 1080i.

Note this only affects one minor aspect of "speed" and does NOT address
the underlying problem in ODN....the MENU controls are like molasses....

I'm hoping the new Cisco boxes FIX this aggravating annoyance.....
And/or the promised, next generation Navigator software release....

Since 1080i takes TWO frames to output every pixel in an image and
720p only takes ONE frame, you end up throwing away HALF the pixels.


Since when is cable providing both 1080i fields in a frame? 1080p frames are created by de-interlacing.

You probably have SA 8300HD anf an external hard drive still works with Passport or Navigator. External hard drives won't work with SA 8300HDC or Samsung boxes.

Yes, I should have made it clear: BenJF3 has the 8300HD and so do I.

Apparently external drive results for other boxes, under either Navigator or Passport, are erratic at best.

-barry

On The Samsungs,

Our division is not carrying them in Wisconsin as of now because of bugs. Just SA boxes. Some divisions might go to the 8500 or higher boxes from SA instead of Samsungs. Ohio is doing that:

Charlotte took this last ODN update well. For San Diego, it has been terrible.

After these ODN boxes are patched, rumor is the next big "thing" to hit will be Remote DVR Management, which Charlotte is testing now on employee accounts.

There might be an MDN/ODN update at the time of the DVR Manager rollout with some new features on it.

TWC has to fix the ODN bugs before rolling out more updates.

What Navigator MDN build is Ohio getting?

Jack

Jack, there are reports that Albany, NY is getting new Cisco 8640 DVR's deployed. One person has confirmed this, but I'm trying to verify the info.

Along with the ODN update to 3.2.0_15, Charlotte and (I believe) San Diego also got Samsung firmware/middleware version 4.3.5.0. I noticed some reports from NYC this week that they received Samsung updates to 2.4.9.4 (from 2.4.9.3... same as we had before 4.3.5.0). I also saw at least one mention in the NYC thread that their update also messed with the FF/REW (which 4.3.0.5 also messed with), but no other noticeable changes.

Kinda makes you wonder what logic is behind the updates... I'm sure there is some but hard to decypher from the outside looking in. It also always seemed odd to me that Charlotte jumped from 2.4.9.3 to 4.3.0.5 when the 4.x versions had always been in the 3270s and 2.x had always been in the 3090s. Now, with NYC getting 2.4.9.4, when they had previously folllowed Charlotte's upgrade path pretty closely, adds to the mystery.

On The Samsungs,

Our division is not carrying them in Wisconsin as of now because of bugs. Just SA boxes. Some divisions might go to the 8500 or higher boxes from SA instead of Samsungs. Ohio is doing that:

Charlotte took this last ODN update well. For San Diego, it has been terrible.

After these ODN boxes are patched, rumor is the next big "thing" to hit will be Remote DVR Management, which Charlotte is testing now on employee accounts.

There might be an MDN/ODN update at the time of the DVR Manager rollout with some new features on it.

TWC has to fix the ODN bugs before rolling out more updates.

What Navigator MDN build is Ohio getting?

Jack

Now, with NYC getting 2.4.9.4, when they had previously folllowed Charlotte's upgrade path pretty closely, adds to the mystery.

I think you've coined a good catch-phrase for Time Warner. TWC, It's a Mystery ;) BTW, that was me that had the FF/RW issues. I also had/have a problem where if I've started to record a show, then begin to watch it before the recording is finished and ff, hitting pause/play will start play from the beginning of the recorded material again.

Jack, there are reports that Albany, NY is getting new Cisco 8640 DVR's deployed. One person has confirmed this, but I'm trying to verify the info.

Thanks Ben!

Where did you get the info about TWC-Albany Navigator change-over comments? I was going to follow along on the thread and see how its going like you are. But all I have bookmarked on the AVS forums is the HD channel thread with a link to Albany New York, and I think I saw only one Navigator comment in there. There should be more than that! LOL!

Can you link me to Albany's comment section on Navigator? Thanks in advance!

Tomorrow is a big beginning rollout for Navigator in many sections of TWC-Ohio.

Jack

Since when is cable providing both 1080i fields in a frame? 1080p frames are created by de-interlacing.
Cable boxes don't output 1080p....only 1080i...which outputs half the pixels in each of 2 frames:
http://www.videsignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197007830
http://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/terms/1080i.cfm
http://www.afterdawn.com/glossary/terms/720p.cfm

FYI: Since nearly all HDTVs are progressive displays, somewhere there needs to
be a deinterlace process...preferably in the latest gen. HDTVs, which means
the cable box should do NOTHING with 1080i MPEG2 files other than pass it on
exactly as it was originated (which is 1080i on HDMI I/F).

If the cable box is set up to deinterlace (and downrez) from 1080i to 720p, the result is lower PQ.
Alternatively if the cable box is set up to "upconvert" 720p to 1080i, half the pixels are thrown away,
losing the double update rate inherent in 720p (which is why ABC/FOX/ESPN sports use it).

And the 480i to 480p deinterlacer in the cable box is surely worse than an HDTV,
but it's probably "good enough" to let the cable box UPCONVERT to 720p if you're trying to
minimize glitches when the HDTV changes resolution settings....optimum is let the HDTV do it...

Fol. 480i to 480p examples describe, worst case, what can go wrong in the deinterlace process:
http://www.100fps.com/
http://www.100fps.com/video_resolution_vs_fluidity.htm

Better. The first time you did not mention de-interlacing and seemed to be saying no pixels from a 1080p image are lost.


Since 1080i takes TWO frames to output every pixel in an image

Has anyone with a new Cisco 8640hdc noticed that when you pause after the 5 minutes or whatever the screen saver pops up but it only covers the main part of the screen. Because it's not a 16:9 GUI it has the 4:3 sidebars on each side that should be black when the screen saver comes up but on mine the picture is still showing on the sidebars? I thought I would wait until after getting a new firmware update since I got a call about 5 days ago saying it would be in the next two nights but I still show 3.1.3_3 firmware so wondered if it is just me, just KC market or everyone with the new 8600hdc. Also I have selected to output only 1080i from the box and the 8600 has hdmi problems resulting in sometimes the box defaulting to all resolutions being chosen after changing to a different input (wii or dvd) and sometimes another problem where I call the phantom 480i syndrome which shows 480i on the display of the box if on a SD channel while changing inputs (wii or dvd) back to cable input. It'll show 480i until changing to hd channel which will change display to 1080i and checking settings shows that indeed 1080i is the only selection.

Has anyone with a new Cisco 8640hdc noticed that when you pause after the 5 minutes or whatever the screen saver pops up but it only covers the main part of the screen. Because it's not a 16:9 GUI it has the 4:3 sidebars on each side that should be black when the screen saver comes up but on mine the picture is still showing on the sidebars? I thought I would wait until after getting a new firmware update since I got a call about 5 days ago saying it would be in the next two nights but I still show 3.1.3_3 firmware so wondered if it is just me, just KC market or everyone with the new 8600hdc. Also I have selected to output only 1080i from the box and the 8600 has hdmi problems resulting in sometimes the box defaulting to all resolutions being chosen after changing to a different input (wii or dvd) and sometimes another problem where I call the phantom 480i syndrome which shows 480i on the display of the box if on a SD channel while changing inputs (wii or dvd) back to cable input. It'll show 480i until changing to hd channel which will change display to 1080i and checking settings shows that indeed 1080i is the only selection.

This is not a problem,

ALL of the SA/Cisco model boxes even the HD models have 4:3 Aspect Ratio Screen Savers. A hardware limitation of the boxes prevents a 16:9 screen saver from showing. Only the new Samsung boxes have a 16:9 screen saver and a 16:9 aspect ratio program guide, although the IPG is not true HD. It is stretched to fill the screen.

There are no plans for TWC at this time to offer a firmware upgrade to allow the IPG on the SA/Cisco boxes to display in true 16:9 resolution. Only the Samsungs are 16:9 and they are "stretched."

For the quickest signal response, I would recommend going under settings and selecting " 1080i only for your resolution. (Or the highest that your TV allows, you won't be able to go higher than what your TV allows. If it's 720, go with 720. Don't have the box display all resolutions. Don't use 480.

Jack

This is not a problem,

ALL of the SA/Cisco model boxes even the HD models have 4:3 Aspect Ratio Screen Savers. A hardware limitation of the boxes prevents a 16:9 screen saver from showing. Only the new Samsung boxes have a 16:9 screen saver and a 16:9 aspect ratio program guide, although the IPG is not true HD. It is stretched to fill the screen.

There are no plans for TWC at this time to offer a firmware upgrade to allow the IPG on the SA/Cisco boxes to display in true 16:9 resolution. Only the Samsungs are 16:9 and they are "stretched."

For the quickest signal response, I would recommend going under settings and selecting " 1080i only for your resolution. (Or the highest that your TV allows, you won't be able to go higher than what your TV allows. If it's 720, go with 720. Don't have the box display all resolutions. Don't use 480.

Jack

Satch Man, thanks for the reply but the handshaking problem with the resolutions is a problem because I do only have 1080i selected. My 8300HDC set up the same way didn't have the problem unless I was hooked HDMI to my AVR.

As for the screen saver what i was trying to say is that the screen saver is on the inside (the 4:3) section of the screen but whatever is paused can still be seen in the sidebars. My old box (8300HDC) would not do this and the whole screen was black except for the twc logo that moves around.

If my new 8640HDC is going to give me HDMI handshake problems I guess I have to consider using component cables so can anyone out there who has compared tell me if I'll lose much or any PQ changing over to Component cables?
Also are the TWC component cables they gave me with my box even worth hooking up?

If my new 8640HDC is going to give me HDMI handshake problems I guess I have to consider using component cables so can anyone out there who has compared tell me if I'll lose much or any PQ changing over to Component cables?
Also are the TWC component cables they gave me with my box even worth hooking up?

Steve,

Shouldn't be a problem with Component Cables. Just go under Settings for audio and video and make sure they match up when you are done. The box may reboot in preparation for the new settings.

Jack

Thanks Ben!

Where did you get the info about TWC-Albany Navigator change-over comments? I was going to follow along on the thread and see how its going like you are. But all I have bookmarked on the AVS forums is the HD channel thread with a link to Albany New York, and I think I saw only one Navigator comment in there. There should be more than that! LOL!

Can you link me to Albany's comment section on Navigator? Thanks in advance!

Tomorrow is a big beginning rollout for Navigator in many sections of TWC-Ohio.

Jack

Jack,

The info on Albany, NY Navigator is not found on this forum. I am a member at AlbanyHDTV.com (http://albanyhdtv.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=3300)and they have their own local forum. The link will take you right to the Navigator thread. That is where I've gotten some feedback. I joined, but you don't need to be a member to read up and follow threads. Right now there is not too much going on there as only new 8640 DVR's and currently deployed 4250's are getting it.

This is not a problem,

ALL of the SA/Cisco model boxes even the HD models have 4:3 Aspect Ratio Screen Savers. A hardware limitation of the boxes prevents a 16:9 screen saver from showing. Only the new Samsung boxes have a 16:9 screen saver and a 16:9 aspect ratio program guide, although the IPG is not true HD. It is stretched to fill the screen.

There are no plans for TWC at this time to offer a firmware upgrade to allow the IPG on the SA/Cisco boxes to display in true 16:9 resolution. Only the Samsungs are 16:9 and they are "stretched."

For the quickest signal response, I would recommend going under settings and selecting " 1080i only for your resolution. (Or the highest that your TV allows, you won't be able to go higher than what your TV allows. If it's 720, go with 720. Don't have the box display all resolutions. Don't use 480.

Jack

Not quite accurate - The limitation on the 8600 series is Time Warner programmers. The box can support a 16:9 guide in 540p. HERE (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/7015625A.pdf) is the spec sheet for it. Look under Graphics Enigine:

2.5 Dimension graphics, up to 960 x 540 resolution, 32 bit (16 million) color

Navigator has been programmed intentionally in a 4:3 format most likely for legacy support because other boxes can't handle it. It's not an excuse, but this is Time Warner we are talking about. They should have made an update for these new models and strictly judging by spec, the 8600 series should be pretty nimble with Navigator. However, I will still hold onto my trusty 8300HD (non C) model until I can get and try an 8600. Also, word is in Albany that they are deploying them with 320GB drive, which are still too small IMHO, but still better than the paltry 160GB. I really wish the DVR makers would get with though and put a minimum 500GB in it. The cost difference is practically nil!

On a side note of storage capacity: I am trying to get the low down on eSATA support as well.

Is there anyway to have the navigator "skip" the channels I dont subscribe to when channel surfing?

Is there anyway to have the navigator "skip" the channels I dont subscribe to when channel surfing?

No. Another lack of foresight by programmers as far as I'm concerned. There is no customization of the guide to add/delete or hide channels that I know of. You can't even set it to show HD only.

You can put Favorites first, but heard certain updates messed that feature up too and I think there was a limit to how many favorites you could list.

Those that want to stretch the guide should be careful what they wish for... one of the common dislikes for the Samsung boxes is that they do stretch the 4:3 native guide to fill the 16:9 screen. Most would prefer that it didn't, and it cannot be disabled. I much prefer the "floating" 4:3 banner/guide on my SA/Cisco 4250HDC over the stretched version my Samsung 3090 displays. It's actually more the stretched banners I dislike... they look awful stretched with the prominent channel logos all distorted. The text itself doesn't really look too bad.

Of course, the answer is that TW needs to develop a native 16:9 guide for those boxes that have 16:9 graphics engines in them - the newer Samsungs and (I'm assuming) the SA/Cisco 8600s.

Oh boy is that stretched guide ever awful! Spent a bunch of days in Durham NC at my cousin's place and she had a Pioneer MDN non DVR box... I tried like hell to get it right, but could not. The "overlay" diagnostics were very difficult to read. She doesn't watch much of any television, as long as they get the basketball games from the colleges they are happy!

When I found out what she was paying to Verizon & TWC, I had a cow. The DSL was 1.5 Mb/s, never heard of such a slow DSL. The phone had NO long distance. Had her switch to triple play and saved her about 30/mo going forward. TWC stuck tight to the rate card, though...

I to am growing tired of waiting for new Navigator features that we hear are comeing or being developed but never show up. It's sad a company with Time Warners resources cannot produce a guide that is good as Passport was 5 years ago. They should have purchased Passport when they had the chance. They could have rebranded it Navigation if they wanted their own name on it. As long as it worked like the old Passport everyone would have been happy. It's just sad and shame on you Time Warner. WOODY

I think it goes beyond that... they clearly seem to lack ANY smarts about software... I dare say, we'd still be stuck with the Passport from 3 years ago.... oh wait a minute, that ancient software sure does trump ODN/MDN in MANY ways...

Contrary to others, I think they sure do make money from the DVR... just not as much as having the sub in the first place. Therefor, Moxi and TiVO do eat into their revenue, but not is near as big a way as the sub itself.

And the bulds for Navigator are done in test labs located in the Colorado Mountains somewhere! Another Comcast area! I think the MDN build for Navigator that I have, MDN 2.4.6_19 says Mt Sherman. This is a mountain range in Colorado! Colorado is Comcast. A friend I've known for ten years lives in the area.

Jack

Are you sure, I thought it was the Urals...

You can still watch recordings without the coax hooked up.

Not so sure about that... I know that during one cable outage, I could NOT watch any recorded stuff on my box.

Then again, that was probably back in the Passport days, so maybe it's a IPG function?

I'm actually fine with taking an update provided two things :

1) I don't lose the recordings I have

2) I keep my eSata support

Pretty much everyone didn't lose recordings during that change-over, but the eSATA support is very hardware dependent.

Oh boy is that stretched guide ever awful! Spent a bunch of days in Durham NC at my cousin's place and she had a Pioneer MDN non DVR box... I tried like hell to get it right, but could not. The "overlay" diagnostics were very difficult to read. She doesn't watch much of any television, as long as they get the basketball games from the colleges they are happy!

When I found out what she was paying to Verizon & TWC, I had a cow. The DSL was 1.5 Mb/s, never heard of such a slow DSL. The phone had NO long distance. Had her switch to triple play and saved her about 30/mo going forward. TWC stuck tight to the rate card, though...

Not sure if the Pioneer and Samsung would be comparable in this regard... on the Sammy there is no problem with readability whatsoever... in fact, the font does not look stretched at all. Its the distorted logos and the banner with the skinny top border and fat side borders that look off to me. The diagnostics pages are not stretched at all, either.

Also, when I had my Pioneer non-DVR HD box, nothing was stretched at all... all the box generated graphics were always 4:3 under both Passport and MDN.

Well, if TWC reverts me to a 160GB HDD with a 20 Hour limit, I will have almost no use for the DVR because it will be filled within a week. They can add all the best features in the world, but if I don't have the capacity to utilize them, then the DVR is worthless to me. I would likely perform a transplant. I'd remove and image the existing internal to my desktop and then transfer it to a 1TB and replace the cable ops HDD. It would be a PITA, but worth it.

Seems the good news is that there's now some actual competition for third party DVRs... Moxi made the first move by dropping it's price from 800 to 500, TiVO who had been sitting on it's butt at least has SOMETHING relatively new to talk about (don't know all the details yet, but it seems the $300 box comes with a larger drive now).

Seems the good news is that there's now some actual competition for third party DVRs... Moxi made the first move by dropping it's price from 800 to 500, TiVO who had been sitting on it's butt at least has SOMETHING relatively new to talk about (don't know all the details yet, but it seems the $300 box comes with a larger drive now).The $300 unit has a 500 GB drive with a 1 TB drive in the $500 one.

At $500, the low-end 2-tuner 500 GB Moxi is $200 less than the $300 Premiere when you add PLS to it. Moxi also offers a 3-tuner unit for $600. Moxi can stream copy protected content (recorded and live) to other units and to low-priced tuner-and-HDD-less "Moxi Mate" clients.

On the face of it, TiVo doesn't seem to be making any effort to compete with Moxi on either price or features. Since I don't need MRV, I'd probably buy a TiVo Premiere if I wanted a new unit, but I can see where it Moxi is a better deal for people who don't own a DVR.

Apologies in advance for coming off as a total newbie. ;)
Short version - I want to be able to hook up my new 8640HDC to the PC so that I utilize video capture software. TWC/KC.

I see that the thing has a USB, Ethernet, and Firewire connectivity. Can this be done?

The $300 unit has a 500 GB drive...

You mean 320, right?

You mean 320, right?Ah--sorry for the misinformation. So their story against the 2-tuner Moxi is even weaker, since it does have a 500 GB drive :rolleyes:.

No. Another lack of foresight by programmers as far as I'm concerned. There is no customization of the guide to add/delete or hide channels that I know of. You can't even set it to show HD only.

You can put Favorites first, but heard certain updates messed that feature up too and I think there was a limit to how many favorites you could list.

I do know that there is no limit as to how many favorites you can add. There might be a "More" or something on the screen if you run out of room concerning the number of favorite channels that can be displayed. I don't know. I have about 14 favorite channels.

No, currently there is no guide filtering option for sorting channels. This is supposed to come in a future software update, but there is no timeframe established as to when that will happen.

Jack

Are you sure, I thought it was the Urals...

LOL!!! Only on your box, Riverside! You have a version no one else has...........anywhere!!!! hehehehe!

Jack

I do know that there is no limit as to how many favorites you can add. There might be a "More" or something on the screen if you run out of room concerning the number of favorite channels that can be displayed. I don't know. I have about 14 favorite channels.

No, currently there is no guide filtering option for sorting channels. This is supposed to come in a future software update, but there is no timeframe established as to when that will happen.

Jack

When I had a reason to use them, I had about 80 Favs, using the Sort by Favs to create my own custom lineup in the guide. Unfortunately, Sort by Favs is now gone along with my customized lineup.

I never saw any limit to number of channels that could be checked off in the favorites setup list.

I do know that there is no limit as to how many favorites you can add. There might be a "More" or something on the screen if you run out of room concerning the number of favorite channels that can be displayed. I don't know. I have about 14 favorite channels.

No, currently there is no guide filtering option for sorting channels. This is supposed to come in a future software update, but there is no timeframe established as to when that will happen.

Jack

With Navigator everything seems to be comeing in a "FUTURE UPDATE". Question is when is he future? Have we really seen any major new features lately? WOODY

With Navigator everything seems to be comeing in a "FUTURE UPDATE". Question is when is he future? Have we really seen any major new features lately? WOODY

I know CW!

I want a time frame for these "futures!"

Jack

Right now there is not too much going on there as only new 8640 DVR's and currently deployed 4250's are getting it.THANK GOODNESS!!!!

It is absolute crap...... Its slower,it look horrid!!!!

Time warner keeps making thier network WORSE AND WORSE!!

Not sure if the Pioneer and Samsung would be comparable in this regard... on the Sammy there is no problem with readability whatsoever... in fact, the font does not look stretched at all. Its the distorted logos and the banner with the skinny top border and fat side borders that look off to me. The diagnostics pages are not stretched at all, either.

Also, when I had my Pioneer non-DVR HD box, nothing was stretched at all... all the box generated graphics were always 4:3 under both Passport and MDN.

My bad for not noting the model number, but the font looked awful, very pixilated/stair step. It was a pure bitmap enlarged way beyond it's nominal size, while your description sounds more like how a PS or OT font looked on a computer... i.e. generated from a vector format rather than a bitmap. BTW, it was a HD box, we watched the Blue Devils hand it to UNC in glorious oversaturated HD glory!

BTW, it was a HD box, we watched the Blue Devils hand it to UNC in glorious oversaturated HD glory!

Right after the Terps ('69) handed it to the Dukies. :p

Ah--sorry for the misinformation. So their story against the 2-tuner Moxi is even weaker, since it does have a 500 GB drive :rolleyes:.

Exactly! The best part is that we now have some actual competition in third party DVRs, thanks to Arris' price shot to start it...

My bad for not noting the model number, but the font looked awful, very pixilated/stair step. It was a pure bitmap enlarged way beyond it's nominal size, while your description sounds more like how a PS or OT font looked on a computer... i.e. generated from a vector format rather than a bitmap. BTW, it was a HD box, we watched the Blue Devils hand it to UNC in glorious oversaturated HD glory!

The box graphics/fonts show no signs of pixelation or stairstepping on the Sammy regardless of the output resolution. What you saw must be unique to the Pioneer implementation. I can imagine that it must have looked awful.

BTW, I tend to stay neutral on ACC matters... First, I'm typical of many NYC-area natives and more of a pro sports fan. On top of that, my son and one brother went to NC State, my other brother went to UNC and then Duke law school... we have all three of the Triangle teams represented in the family.

I know CW!

I want a time frame for these "futures!"

Jack

The 12th of never springs to mind.

I received a response from Jeff Unaitis just now about Navigator deployment for Central NY:

Ben:


Thanks for your note, which I’m happy to respond to here.

We’re launching Navigator division-by-division because of the necessary Corporate resources involved. We’ll be doing our Central New York locations starting in May / concluding in June. We’re going to be deploying the Cisco 8640/4640HDC boxes you mention, to new customers and with the Navigator guide already loaded, starting in May.

Customers are migrated to the new guide based on their box type – we stage those migrations over a period of weeks to maximize customer education and to better respond to customer questions that may arise. One note about that – if a customer has multiple boxes in their home, of different types, it’s likely they’ll have the new Navigator on one box while the current guide remains on others, until we complete all box migrations.

I disagree with your comment about channel realignments accompanying the guide launches “in most divisions,” as there is no channel lineup restructuring occurring throughout our Northeast region when Navigator is launched. (The Charlotte information you reference relates to a complete re-launch of that lineup as a totally Digital offering – not something we’re doing here and unrelated to the Navigator launch.)

I am aware of plans to add additional HD content later and throughout 2010. One note about the new Navigator, which somewhat addresses your concern about remembering numerous channel locations: an enhanced “Favorites” function in Navigator groups all of a customer’s favorite channels AT THE TOP so, when they pull up the on-screen guide, they can quickly and easily see and choose from programming on their favorite channels first, before scrolling through the numerical guide, and quickly tune to the desired channel. Customers are loving that feature.

Thanks for your compliments – we’re working hard and I know you’ll appreciate the many benefits and features that Navigator will afford our customers.


Jeff Unaitis
V.P. Communications, Upstate New York
Time Warner Cable - Northeast/National Region

It's coming sooner than I thought and he hints at HD additions which can pretty much only be the Viacom HD channels as that's all we are missing as of right now! I wasn't surprised by the "no go" on a channel realignment, but thought I'd express my dissatisfaction with it. I have to give credit to Mr. Unaitis as he generally is always responsive to my questions (even if I may not like the answer given). CNY, get ready...

I received a response from Jeff Unaitis just now about Navigator deployment for Central NY:

...One note about the new Navigator, which somewhat addresses your concern about remembering numerous channel locations: an enhanced “Favorites” function in Navigator groups all of a customer’s favorite channels AT THE TOP so, when they pull up the on-screen guide, they can quickly and easily see and choose from programming on their favorite channels first, before scrolling through the numerical guide, and quickly tune to the desired channel. Customers are loving that feature...

Jeff Unaitis
V.P. Communications, Upstate New York
Time Warner Cable - Northeast/National Region



Yes... we do (did)... Unfortunately, he is describing a feature that has been removed from the latest version of ODN.

Yes... we do (did)... Unfortunately, he is describing a feature that has been removed from the latest version of ODN.

I figured that, but he is not going to know which version number they are giving us. I am planning on going to the local office and requesting a pre-loaded 8640 to run through it's paces. If it performs better than my 8300HD, I will then turn that back in, but only after I run the 8640 thoroughly through the gamut! I'm soliciting Albany members in order to get version numbers so we can compare here. I can live without channel realignment especially if MRV and Remote Management are priorities.

May and june can not come fast enuff for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The abyss being gatored who would have thunk it !!!:)

May and june can not come fast enuff for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The abyss being gatored who would have thunk it !!!:)

abyss, we are having more local indepth within the Syracuse/Utica HD Thread as well if you want to check it out.

all this cisco and navigator talk has me salivating! Looks like summer is looking pretty sweet already!

all this cisco and navigator talk has me salivating! Looks like summer is looking pretty sweet already!

Hey Abyss!

Got your PM!!! I am sure you are preparing for your Gator!!! Abyss is gonna be like Ralphie getting his BB Gun in A Christmas Story and Charlie getting the Chocolote Factory at the same time when his Gator comes!!!!

He's gonna be like! YES!!!! FINALLY!!!!!!!! IT'S HERE!!!! IT'S HERE EVERYBODY!!!!!!


Jack

I'm excited, but at the same time worried. I'm feeling like "Oh Yes!", but thinking more like "Oh Sh*t!"

I'm excited, but at the same time worried. I'm feeling like "Oh Yes!", but thinking more like "Oh Sh*t!"

LOL!!!!!!!

Jack

Coming from Jeff Unaitis i believe it's as good as gold but from anyone else from time warner ....doubtful !;) Thanks ben for your persistance with navigator glad to see there is someone out there wanting navigator as bad as i . I just hope it don't shut my eye out ....Satch !!!!!

While I do want it, I want a version that is STABLE! I very concerned with losing the recording space afforded me by my eSATA drive. However, I am more than willing to swap out the stock drive with my 1TB drive if the 8640 gives me a substantial performance boost over my 8300 should I lose eSATA support.

Well let's hope eSATA meshes with the conversion spend all that money and not have it support it becomes worthless .

Just got my 3rd (tivo series 3) today from ups ....have my fingers crossed!!!!! Hopefully it was the tuning adapter that was bad.

No eSATA on the 8640 but you could try opening up the unit but the guide and OS are actually stored on the HDD and not a flash chip. I think it's possible to make an image the HDD and transfer it on to the new one. Maybe it has some limitation to prevent users from swapping the drive.

No eSATA on the 8640 but you could try opening up the unit but the guide and OS are actually stored on the HDD and not a flash chip. I think it's possible to make an image the HDD and transfer it on to the new one. Maybe it has some limitation to prevent users from swapping the drive.

But note the risk,

Those boxes are tamper resistant and TWC can charge you hundreds of dollars if they find out that you altered the boxes by opening them. Not something that I would recommend.

Jack

Yes... we do (did)... Unfortunately, he is describing a feature that has been removed from the latest version of ODN.

Plus, I had it in MDN... when first converted. They slip-streamed some bug fixes (2-4 weeks later) and killed it as well. Not sure if it ever showed up on -19...

May and june can not come fast enuff for me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The abyss being gatored who would have thunk it !!!:)

Sorry to read about all the issues you have had with a TiVO. From the above, it sounds like you may ditch the TiVO and "go back???"

Looks like 8640s may be available upstate... is this where the abyss is going?

No eSATA on the 8640 but you could try opening up the unit but the guide and OS are actually stored on the HDD and not a flash chip. I think it's possible to make an image the HDD and transfer it on to the new one. Maybe it has some limitation to prevent users from swapping the drive.

Do you mean the connector is not even present on the 8640, or it's there but ODN doesn't support it in any way?

Sorry to read about all the issues you have had with a TiVO. From the above, it sounds like you may ditch the TiVO and "go back???"

Looks like 8640s may be available upstate... is this where the abyss is going?

Our Division VP of Communications confirmed we are getting current gen Cisco Hardware (8640/4640HDC) even though the web page lists Samsung boxes. They may however update that as I noted several changes since yesterday.

Here are the details of the new Cisco Hardware:

Cisco 4640HDC Spec Sheet (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8620/7016225.pdf)

4640HDC Brochure (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8620/7016229.pdf)

Cisco 8640HDC DVR Spec Sheet (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/7015626A.pdf)

8640HDC Brochure (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps10318/ps10348/G1699B-8600_Series_One_Sheet_Jan2009.pdf)

HERE (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps10318/ps10348/video_stb_overview.html) is a video presentation by Cisco of what these set tops are capable of.

Time Warner CNY has also updated the web page to reflect Navigator (http://www.timewarnercable.com/northeast/learn/cable/navigator/default.html).

There is a Navigator FAQ HERE (http://www.timewarnercable.com/northeast/site.faqs/Cable/#On-screen+Guide).

Also, there is a Quick Start Guide HERE (http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/1/1/FAQ/Documents/Navigator_QuickStartGuide.pdf).

EDIT: RiverSide - Note that the 8640HDC DOES have an eSATA support and is capable of supporting an add on drive. Whether or not TWC enables it is another story!

RiverSide - Note that the 8640HDC DOES have an eSATA support and is capable of supporting an add on drive. Whether or not TWC enables it is another story!

Ah, wonder if anyone can tell if that connector is actually wired to a SATA controller on the mobo? I remember a box long ago that had provision on the box for a FW connection (i.e. a labeled hole)... except it was a blank hole with nothing on the inside!

Ah, wonder if anyone can tell if that connector is actually wired to a SATA controller on the mobo? I remember a box long ago that had provision on the box for a FW connection (i.e. a labeled hole)... except it was a blank hole with nothing on the inside!

Well, I for one will confirm that as soon as I can get my hands on one! If the box outperforms my SA8300HD and lacks eSATA support, I fully intend to remove, image and replace the stock drive with a 1TB model. Being a tech for some years, I am not intimidated by the swap out. In fact, if it's easy enough to do, I'll make a "How To" guide!

Navigator's Development From 2006 to Now


What TWC Should Have Done.

I think TWC was just over-confident and the CEO's just assumed that because their Road Runner and Digital Phone worked well in most markets, that the technology would take care of itself. What they did not anticipate was the lack of qualified software developers in their engineering department, who knew how to create, program, and maintain a quality IPG guide.

Aptiv TV had people on deck for a decade who knew how to create and maintain a top IPG. Just like TIVO, because to the competition, that is the foundation of what they do and they do it very well. TWC in contrast are not "Program Guide people." They took a general base of what they thought was "just OK" without the experience or knowledgeable staff who knew how to program it properly or know how to add modern features to it. TWC wants to be all things to subscribers. They want subs to bundle packages, to consolidate that "We are a high-speed Internet company. We are a Digital Phone company, and we are a cable company." They would rather do three things at the C+ level to maximize profits, rather than pay extra money, especially not to an outside vender to do one thing, (create a top IPG only, and do it as well as the competition.)

TWC would probably rather create In House DVR's rather than pay SA/Cisco or Samsung residues for them. OOPS! I better shut up before I give Glenn Britt any more ideas!!! LOL! The point is that they want to be able to control all the equipment and features on your TV, Internet, and telephone. Plus paying outside venders, especially in today's economy is expensive.

Generally, the idea to go "In House" on a product or service to cut costs usually results in an inferior product, especially when you haven't done it before and are going up against competition with a decade of experience in the same area. TWC had the potential for a good idea on an in-house guide, but they should have had some help from Aptiv TV/Passport, or struck a deal with TIVO, rather than go at it alone. That's the problem.

(I am also putting this in the Navigator thread.)

Jack

Well, I for one will confirm that as soon as I can get my hands on one! If the box outperforms my SA8300HD and lacks eSATA support, I fully intend to remove, image and replace the stock drive with a 1TB model. Being a tech for some years, I am not intimidated by the swap out. In fact, if it's easy enough to do, I'll make a "How To" guide!

The 8640's OS and guide are stored onto the HDD so you'll need to image it first then put in the 1TB HDD.

Well, I for one will confirm that as soon as I can get my hands on one! If the box outperforms my SA8300HD and lacks eSATA support, I fully intend to remove, image and replace the stock drive with a 1TB model. Being a tech for some years, I am not intimidated by the swap out. In fact, if it's easy enough to do, I'll make a "How To" guide!

The 8640's OS and guide are stored onto the HDD so you'll need to image it first then put in the 1TB HDD.

I know, isn't that what I said? lol

Our Division VP of Communications confirmed we are getting current gen Cisco Hardware (8640/4640HDC) even though the web page lists Samsung boxes. They may however update that as I noted several changes since yesterday.

Here are the details of the new Cisco Hardware:


Maybe someone can help me out here.

Based on all the different markets in this thread that are getting them, it appears that the Cisco 8640 is going to be TWC HD DVR of choice going forward.

There are two problems I see with this.

First, it appears to only support a widescreen guide in 540p which is not HD.

Second, based on the specs it does not support MoCA, but on the TWC conference call the CEO said that they were going to be rolling out multi-room viewing later this year.

So how on earth is TWC going to rollout a widescreen HD guide or multi-room viewing anytime in the next few years when the brand new hardware they are rolling out doesn't support it?!?!?

What am I missing?!?

Maybe TWC is going to move away from DVRs altogether and move to the remote storage DVR(RS-DVR) approach like Cablevision? The Cablevision CEO recently said that that they will not be purchasing anymore DVRs after this year. Instead, customers will rent storage space on servers and DVR content will essentially be a VOD session.

http://www.fierceiptv.com/story/cablevision-preps-rs-dvr-pc-tv-offerings/2010-03-01

TWC had the potential for a good idea on an in-house guide, but they should have had some help from Aptiv TV/Passport, or struck a deal with TIVO, rather than go at it alone. That's the problem.

Just to rub it in, Rovi just won an award at the TV of Tomorrow show:

The award for "Most Innovative Design or User Interface" (i.e. the company or organization that created the most innovative and disruptive design/user interface/content-navigation schema of the past year) went to Rovi.

Maybe someone can help me out here.

Based on all the different markets in this thread that are getting them, it appears that the Cisco 8640 is going to be TWC HD DVR of choice going forward.

There are two problems I see with this.

First, it appears to only support a widescreen guide in 540p which is not HD.

Second, based on the specs it does not support MoCA, but on the TWC conference call the CEO said that they were going to be rolling out multi-room viewing later this year.

So how on earth is TWC going to rollout a widescreen HD guide or multi-room viewing anytime in the next few years when the brand new hardware they are rolling out doesn't support it?!?!?

What am I missing?!?

Maybe TWC is going to move away from DVRs altogether and move to the remote storage DVR(RS-DVR) approach like Cablevision? The Cablevision CEO recently said that that they will not be purchasing anymore DVRs after this year. Instead, customers will rent storage space on servers and DVR content will essentially be a VOD session.

http://www.fierceiptv.com/story/cablevision-preps-rs-dvr-pc-tv-offerings/2010-03-01

Well, 540p will likely be acceptable to most users as long as they deliver a true ED Widescreen guide versus a 4:3 stretched guide.

Now, The 8600 Series is MoCa compatible, but the 8640 doesn't have it on board. According to the documentation HERE (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps10318/ps10348/G1699B-8600_Series_One_Sheet_Jan2009.pdf) the 8652 has MoCa standard. It seems that these set tops will require a Gateway device for this function. Now, they still have Ethernet, so TWC could devise a way to utilize that via wireless or powerline, but MoCa would seem to be the way to go.

Just to rub it in, Rovi just won an award at the TV of Tomorrow show:

The award for "Most Innovative Design or User Interface" (i.e. the company or organization that created the most innovative and disruptive design/user interface/content-navigation schema of the past year) went to Rovi.

And the award for WORST Design or User Interface goes to Navigator! LOL!

Jack

But note the risk,

Those boxes are tamper resistant[citation needed] and TWC can charge you hundreds of dollars if they find out that you altered the boxes by opening them. Not something that I would recommend.

Jack

Fixed that for ya.

xnappo

Well, I for one will confirm that as soon as I can get my hands on one! If the box outperforms my SA8300HD and lacks eSATA support, I fully intend to remove, image and replace the stock drive with a 1TB model. Being a tech for some years, I am not intimidated by the swap out. In fact, if it's easy enough to do, I'll make a "How To" guide!

Very cool, my preference would always be to first replace the internal drive before external is considered, so I am very interested in the experience of trying to do that.

More importantly, I wonder if anyone has any clue as to possible 8640 deployments? There's reasonable evidence they wanted to go largely with Samsung, but maybe they think Cisco provides a better DVR??

Based on all the different markets in this thread that are getting them, it appears that the Cisco 8640 is going to be TWC HD DVR of choice going forward.

I would consider that a question, not a fact just yet. We pretty much know they seemed to go with Samsung as their "going forward" STB choice. It is possible they are unhappy with Samsung and are trying an alternative, OR it could simply mean that they want to have at least 2 viable choices for hardware. I actually find the latter to be a more plausible situation...

I would consider that a question, not a fact just yet. We pretty much know they seemed to go with Samsung as their "going forward" STB choice. It is possible they are unhappy with Samsung and are trying an alternative, OR it could simply mean that they want to have at least 2 viable choices for hardware. I actually find the latter to be a more plausible situation...Given that these boxes are supposedly tru2way compatible, it doesn't matter who they come from--they should all run Navigator equally well. A relatively common strategy for integrated device manufacture these days is to spec components to multiple manufacturers; in the Xbox 360, for instance, Microsoft uses DVD drives and fans from multiple different sources. Having qualified a group of suppliers' products, they buy parts from whomever can give them the best speed and price for delivery of a given quantity to a particular manufacturing site at the time of order. It's just very good business not to be dependent on any single source for anything, if you can help it. It's the biggest upside of tru2way for the cable providers.

Part of TWC's STB spec might require that all products respond to the same set of IR codes, with remotes supplied by a third source. It's Navigator and the remote which comprise the user experience, not the box.

I've seen TWC use multiple products from different manufacturers in the past--when I moved here, they were distributing non-DVR STBs from SA, Pioneer and Pace, all running Passport (when they started leasing DVRs, they standardized on SA). With tru2way it's a lot easier to do this.

Given that these boxes are supposedly tru2way compatible...

Are you sure? I have yet to see any DVR that is being called <tru2way> and AFAIK, there are only 3 cities where the local MSO claims their head end is <tru2way> compatible. Did I miss TiVO saying their brand new boxes are <tru2way>?

I am as anxious for this to roll out as anyone else, but honestly I seem to small cable card all over again. I would LOVE to be wrong!

Are you sure? I have yet to see any DVR that is being called <tru2way> and AFAIK, there are only 3 cities where the local MSO claims their head end is <tru2way> compatible. Did I miss TiVO saying their brand new boxes are <tru2way>?

I am as anxious for this to roll out as anyone else, but honestly I seem to small cable card all over again. I would LOVE to be wrong!

Tru2Way is a standard for two way communication and middleware, not to replace cable card with in-box software. All 'Java' Navigator boxes (HDC) are Tru2Way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tru2way

There is another effort underway to do that - DCAS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downloadable_Conditional_Access_System

xnappo

We're still waiting for TiVo to either confirm....or deny....whether the Series 4 Premiere
will work without a SDV Tuning Adapter:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/460/8087.html
There is NO MENTION of needing to use an SDV Tuning Adapter with the Premiere, as they
note is required for earlier boxes.
Tentative conclusion: SDV T-A is either not needed....or TiVo is using false advertising and
hasn't stipulated what you DON'T get if SDV T-A is used: PPV, OnDemand & Cable's IPG.
I guess we'll know for sure when people start hooking them up in the near future....

TiVo Series 4 Premiere brochure & website:
http://www.tivo.com/assets/pdfs/products/TiVoPremiere_brochure.pdf
http://www.tivo.com/what-is-premiere/premiere-is/index.html

=======================================
There is a separate section re Internet Features:
"It’s your web box.
Connect Premiere to the Internet and experience the web like never before—on your TV. Access an
entire universe of online entertainment, including movies, TV shows, music videos, web videos
and podcasts. It’s more than cable or satellite could ever provide.
It’s your music box.
Whether you’re jamming to your computer’s music library or streaming online songs by
your favorite band, Premiere leverages your TV’s sound system to bring your music to life.
• Use Search to scour the worlds of broadcast and broadband to find exactly what you want to watch.
• Enjoy content on your TV from online TiVo partners, like Netflix, Amazon Video On Demand,
YouTube™, Rhapsody®, Music Choice® and more.
• Use your laptop or mobile device to browse and schedule recordings from anywhere, at any time.
• Find free web videos for virtually every interest under the sun and watch them on your TV—you can
even subscribe for regular updates."

=================================
And a separate section re Cable TV features:
"It’s your cable box.
Premiere’s new HD interface helps you make the most of your digital cable. Now searching,
exploring and discovering what you want to watch is easier and more intuitive than ever.
[I think they're referring to using Web I/F for various Search features]
It’s your movie box.
A broadband-connected Premiere delivers access to the world’s largest on-demand
video library, so you can find the movies and TV shows you want, at a moment’s notice,
for the best price available.
[Access to Cable's OnDemand programs requires two-way protocol.]
[Presumably in the cable section...if Web features above, it's false advertising.]
• Premiere connects to your cable service and replaces your cable box with a CableCARD™
from your cable provider."
Since SDV Tuning Adapter is a Cable Box, either they have tru2way...or it's false advertising.

From their website:
"Premiere replaces your dusty old cable box or DVR with something far more powerful.
You'll not only get the world's most innovative DVR and increased storage for your HD
entertainment, you'll get Premiere's reinvented, visually stunning HD interface, which
enables you to search, explore, browse, and discover in all new ways."

================================
Since the tru2way agreements were reportedly modified to permit TiVo to switch between
their own Guide (loaded from data via Internet?), TiVo could do some things without tru2way.
But they are going to need the two-way protocol to select SDV and OnDemand programs on Cable.

On TWC-SD, OnDemand programs include close to a 100 HD movies
and way too many to count (1000's) of SD/HD Free and PPV programs,
including replays of recent shows on network and non-network channels.
If TiVo can't access these, they should say so....and compare to their web-based offerings.

TWC-SD carries MusicChoice & local FM...some DD and some PCM via Optical I/F.
Will TiVo Series 4 Premiere be able to select and decode both formats????

Are you sure? I have yet to see any DVR that is being called <tru2way> and AFAIK, there are only 3 cities where the local MSO claims their head end is <tru2way> compatible. Did I miss TiVO saying their brand new boxes are <tru2way>?

I am as anxious for this to roll out as anyone else, but honestly I seem to small cable card all over again. I would LOVE to be wrong!Time Warner claims that their leased CableCARD STBs which run Navigator are tru2way compliant. From this (http://www.multichannel.com/article/307563-Time_Warner_Cable_Will_Buy_More_Samsung_Tru2way_Boxes.php) PR quote from July:
To date, Time Warner Cable has deployed more than 2 million tru2way-based set-top boxes, of which approximately 400,000 are Samsung boxes. Under the renewed agreement, TWC will deploy Samsung set-tops including the SMT-H3090 and SMT-H3270 high-definition DVRs.

"We have been a leader in the rollout of tru2way devices, and we are continuing to grow our relationship with Samsung, a CE company dedicated to the development of new equipment meeting the necessary standards and offering attractive feature sets," TWC executive vice president of advanced engineering Mike Hayashi said in a statement.In essense, tru2way is OCAP and OCAP Digital Navigator is a tru2way application. TWC has been displaying Navigator running on prototype Samsung tru2way televisions at product shows for the past four years (long before the "tru2way" trademark rolled out). Now, will any TWC systems recognize arbitrary retail tru2way devices connected to them and download Navigator? I dunno. However, except for some Panasonic televisions on sale in a few Comcast markets, are there any tru2way products on offer at retail? Not that I know of, so it would be more or less impossible for an impartial third party to test whether TWC networks are ready to support arbitrary retail tru2way products.

As for TiVo Premiere being tru2way compliant, I've been told that CableLabs would not authorize a CableCARD device which implements bidirectional communications without OCAP. TiVo has worked with a company called SeaChange on a system for VOD on a unidirectional CableCARD device via an Internet connection. East-coast cable provider RCN is supposed to be buying TiVo-branded hardware to use as leased boxes using that tech, running something very close to the retail TiVo GUI (see this (http://www.multichannel.com/article/326959-RCN_Will_Follow_TiVo_s_Path.php); they say that TiVo is selling them boxes for less than they pay for the Moto boxes they're already using). A similar mechanism could be used for SDV as well--I believe that TiVo is pushing the FCC to force the US cable industry to support something like this.

Is it possible to specifically request the newer Synergy TW DVR remote? I like the look and feel better than the other one they have had for a while

FYI: Status of tru2way implementations as reported Jan2010:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=186505&site=lr_cable

Since three DMA's have had tru2way HDTVs on sale for quite a few months
now, they should be getting close to final debug & nationwide launch....

BUT: Some box & HDTV manufacturers may still be holding out to finish
various bells & whistles (e.g. Multiroom, MPEG4/1080p IPTV, etc.).
And, of course, STBs need to work correctly when deployed by MSOs before going retail....

PS: CableLabs can only "certify" against an EXISTING set of CableLabs approved specs.
If TiVo is deviating from those specs, CableLabs would be unable to test & certify....
TiVo would still be able to use CableCARDs, but would have to either work within the
existing cable interface....or work with the MSOs for approval of any changes....

TiVo has worked with a company called SeaChange on a system for VOD on a unidirectional CableCARD device via an Internet connection....A similar mechanism could be used for SDV as well--I believe that TiVo is pushing the FCC to force the US cable industry to support something like this.Yep--see this (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=188141&site=lr_cable&).

tru2way is all well and good, but the cable providers are trying to use it to force their GUIs (like Navigator) on the public, not leaving room for alternative GUIs like TiVo's to compete (except as sold through them as an option, like the TiVo-written GUI Comcast is offering, and you can forget about access to broadband VOD like Netflix streaming in something like that). Without such an alternative GUI, there's very little way for products to differentiate themselves--why buy a TiVo when it will look just the same as any other box when running on a tru2way network? (I think that negotiations on the mods to tru2way to allow TiVo's proposed bi-modal unit fell through).

PS: CableLabs can only "certify" against an EXISTING set of CableLabs approved specs.
If TiVo is deviating from those specs, CableLabs would be unable to test & certify....
TiVo would still be able to use CableCARDs, but would have to either work within the
existing cable interface....or work with the MSOs for approval of any changes....I could be wrong, but I don't believe that CableLabs would license use of the CableCARD spec to a non-compliant device. You cannot manufacture a CableCARD product without their approval.

Yep--see this (http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=188141&site=lr_cable&).

tru2way is all well and good, but the cable providers are trying to use it to force their GUIs (like Navigator) on the public, not leaving room for alternative GUIs like TiVo's to compete (except as sold through them as an option, like the TiVo-written GUI Comcast is offering, and you can forget about access to broadband VOD like Netflix streaming in something like that). Without such an alternative GUI, there's very little way for products to differentiate themselves--why buy a TiVo when it will look just the same as any other box when running on a tru2way network? (I think that negotiations on the mods to tru2way to allow TiVo's proposed bi-modal unit fell through).

Tru2Way is worthless if Cable Ops are still going to force their GUI on you. The reason I want a third party box in the first place is to GET AWAY from the garbage the cable companies force upon us. I just want a set top that does what I want and gives me access to all the options I pay my cable provider for (IE: VOD).

Tivo proposed a tru2way devices with 2 modes. One would be Tivo mode which would be able to have all the tivo functionality plus SDV support and a Cable Mode which could be used to access 2 way cable functions such as VOD and PPV. Cable Mode would still use the cableco ui but you would have all those functions minus the ability to record your favorite shows.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that CableLabs would license use of the CableCARD spec to a non-compliant device. You cannot manufacture a CableCARD product without their approval.
First you get it certified while in the "normal" mode....then you get creative....

TiVo's secondary IPG would have to work this way...until (if ever) they
release specs on how the alternative (Web I/F driven) IPG works so
that test procedures could be written for testing by CableLabs....

Tru2Way is a standard for two way communication and middleware, not to replace cable card with in-box software. All 'Java' Navigator boxes (HDC) are Tru2Way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tru2way

There is another effort underway to do that - DCAS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downloadable_Conditional_Access_System

xnappo

I thought DCAS was only about authentication... as in a software way to not need cable cards. Never thought <tru2way> had anything to do with authorization or cable cards. Love how they say DCAS was supposed to be available 06/08.

Have an HD, so it ain't <tru2way>. I think my post was a reaction to another post that said ALL cable supplied boxes are <tru2way>. Then again, there seems no point to the cable guys doing it on their boxes... the point is for third party boxes.

Not to mention OCAP... which I believe IS a Java application that runs on HDCs, but not HDs.

Pure speculation, but an argument can be made that both cable cards and <tru2way> are nothing more than smokescreens, a bunch of techno mumbo-jumbo that sounds GREAT to consumers but stuff we'll mostly never actually see or be able to utilize.

We're still waiting for TiVo to either confirm....or deny....whether the Series 4 Premiere
will work without a SDV Tuning Adapter

Could ALMOST swear I read a quote that said they are NOT <tru2way> boxes... I certainly was waiting to hear SOMEONE actually selling one!

Time Warner claims that their leased CableCARD STBs which run Navigator are tru2way compliant. From this (http://www.multichannel.com/article/307563-Time_Warner_Cable_Will_Buy_More_Samsung_Tru2way_Boxes.php) PR quote from July:
In essense, tru2way is OCAP and OCAP Digital Navigator is a tru2way application. TWC has been displaying Navigator running on prototype Samsung tru2way televisions at product shows for the past four years (long before the "tru2way" trademark rolled out). Now, will any TWC systems recognize arbitrary retail tru2way devices connected to them and download Navigator? I dunno. However, except for some Panasonic televisions on sale in a few Comcast markets, are there any tru2way products on offer at retail? Not that I know of, so it would be more or less impossible for an impartial third party to test whether TWC networks are ready to support arbitrary retail tru2way products.

As for TiVo Premiere being tru2way compliant, I've been told that CableLabs would not authorize a CableCARD device which implements bidirectional communications without OCAP. TiVo has worked with a company called SeaChange on a system for VOD on a unidirectional CableCARD device via an Internet connection. East-coast cable provider RCN is supposed to be buying TiVo-branded hardware to use as leased boxes using that tech, running something very close to the retail TiVo GUI (see this (http://www.multichannel.com/article/326959-RCN_Will_Follow_TiVo_s_Path.php); they say that TiVo is selling them boxes for less than they pay for the Moto boxes they're already using). A similar mechanism could be used for SDV as well--I believe that TiVo is pushing the FCC to force the US cable industry to support something like this.

Ah, thanks for filling in some holes. The TWC statement is a lie... for sure they ARE giving out Navigator (at least I know that for a fact in my market) equipped 8300HDs which can NOT run OCAP, so can not be <tru2way>. My aunt had an issue (month or two ago), they did a truck roll and gave her a 8300HD.

Not to mention that while we talk about third party <tru2way> products, I'm fairly sure there may be only 3 mid to small markets where the head end is actually capable of dealing with <tru2way> devices.

OCAP = <tru2way>

Open Cable Application Platform was/is the cable industry internal name... tru2way is the "consumer facing" brand name. The OpenCable specifications include both hardware and software specifications. The hardware specifications describe a baseline host device configuration for accessing interactive services and are interoperable with cable systems throughout the U.S., thus creating a retail solution for consumer electronics products for cable. The software specifications, coupled with the hardware specifications, solve the problem of proprietary operating system software, thereby creating a common platform for interactive television applications and services.

http://www.cablelabs.com/opencable/
The early OCAP boxes such as the 8300HDC were patched together pretty quickly to meet the initial requirements for separable security... they likely do not meet all the current standards necessary for the <tru2way> seal of approval.

The newer Samsungs and Cisco boxes do carry the <tru2way> stamp on them... but its rather meaningless since they are not sold as retail devices. Theoretically, the same apps that TWC loads onto the these boxes should be able to be loaded onto a retail <tru2way> device. Those systems that support TW supplied OCAP/<tru2way> boxes can't be far from being able to support retail <tru2way> devices... perhaps just a formal certification process. Again, it doesn't matter much because there aren't many retail <tru2way> devices available, and those that are have been limited to certain test markets.

I thought DCAS was only about authentication... as in a software way to not need cable cards. Never thought <tru2way> had anything to do with authorization or cable cards. Love how they say DCAS was supposed to be available 06/08.

Have an HD, so it ain't <tru2way>. I think my post was a reaction to another post that said ALL cable supplied boxes are <tru2way>. Then again, there seems no point to the cable guys doing it on their boxes... the point is for third party boxes.

Not to mention OCAP... which I believe IS a Java application that runs on HDCs, but not HDs.

Pure speculation, but an argument can be made that both cable cards and <tru2way> are nothing more than smokescreens, a bunch of techno mumbo-jumbo that sounds GREAT to consumers but stuff we'll mostly never actually see or be able to utilize.

Both my 4250HDC and 3090 got some sort of download last night... no obvious version changes... still ODN 3.2.0_15 on both and 4.3.5.0 on the Samsung software.

According to our division, we will not be getting Samsung boxes. We should be getting new Cisco models. No reason was given, but I've heard reports that the Samsung's don't play well with Navigator. I really can't wait to get a pre-loaded 8640HDC and give it a workout.

Both my 4250HDC and 3090 got some sort of download last night... no obvious version changes... still ODN 3.2.0_15 on both and 4.3.5.0 on the Samsung software.

Slipstream... I'd almost like to see a law...

heard reports that the Samsung's don't play well with Navigator.Utterly bizarre if true, since Samsung has been a development partner of theirs for ODN since the very beginning, displaying Navigator running prototype OCAP retail products at product shows for years. (Here (http://www.cedmagazine.com/samsung-time-warner-charter.aspx)'s a blurb about CES 2005, 5 years back, where Samsung was showing ODN running on a prototype television). No company has deeper experience with ODN than Samsung. If TWC is moving away from them I suspect that there are other factors.

Utterly bizarre if true, since Samsung has been a development partner of theirs for ODN since the very beginning, displaying Navigator running prototype OCAP retail products at product shows for years. (Here (http://www.cedmagazine.com/samsung-time-warner-charter.aspx)'s a blurb about CES 2005, 5 years back, where Samsung was showing ODN running on a prototype television). No company has deeper experience with ODN than Samsung. If TWC is moving away from them I suspect that there are other factors.

Very well could be, but even members here have reported issues with Navigator running on the Samsung. I have to dig a little deeper for specifics. All I can confirm is that our VP of Communications confirmed that we are getting Cisco boxes as they deploy Navigator here. He is suppose to contact me when they become available here because I want to go get one.

First you get it certified while in the "normal" mode....then you get creative....

TiVo's secondary IPG would have to work this way...until (if ever) they
release specs on how the alternative (Web I/F driven) IPG works so
that test procedures could be written for testing by CableLabs....I don't get your point. CableLabs has no authority over what signalling a CableCARD-certified box might do over an Internet connection. They really have nothing to do with SDV, other than publication and maintenance of the Tuning Adapter spec, and nothing to do with general purpose VOD at all. I'm certain that RCN has no intention or obligation to seek CableLabs approval for the use of this new SeaChange Internet-signalled-VOD system.

TWC in Northeast Ohio has Samsung boxes only. So I really don't think it's as cut and dry as TW moving toward Cisco only.

Slipstream... I'd almost like to see a law...

There are many more files/programs/configurations to load than just the main GUI and Samsung middleware versions. One of the nice thing about the Samsung diagnostics is that it lists all of the installed applications... if someone was so inclined (obviously, I'm not) you could catalog all of the dozens of apps and drivers loaded. The version numbers, build numbers and file dates of the main ODN and Samsung code did not change. Its likely one of the other files for CableCard, the TW installer apps or something along those lines was updated.

Have an HD, so it ain't <tru2way>. I think my post was a reaction to another post that said ALL cable supplied boxes are <tru2way>. Then again, there seems no point to the cable guys doing it on their boxes... the point is for third party boxes.

Not to mention OCAP... which I believe IS a Java application that runs on HDCs, but not HDs.By FCC regs, all of the Cisco/SA boxes which TWC has purchased since July 2007 are HDCs and AFAIK, all of the HDCs that they've purchased are running OCAP and ODN (well, some may still be running SARA, but I don't think that they've bought any which aren't capable of running OCAP and ODN). The version of Navigator running on the HD(no C) boxes is MDN and definitely not tru2way. TWC isn't claiming that all of their boxes are tru2way, just that they've deployed millions of boxes that are tru2way complaint, which may be technically true. Note that though they aren't allowed to buy any more Explorer xxxxHD(no C) boxes, they're perfecty free to continue distributing the ones they have that are still running.

OCAP isn't a Java application; it's a software environment in which to run Java applications. A bit like a virtual operating system running under a real operating system. The idea is that all OCAP boxes can run the same Java code, even though they may be running different processors and different operating systems. The OCAP can understand that Java code and offers the same set of services to it no matter what box its running on.Pure speculation, but an argument can be made that both cable cards and <tru2way> are nothing more than smokescreens, a bunch of techno mumbo-jumbo that sounds GREAT to consumers but stuff we'll mostly never actually see or be able to utilize.CableCARDs aren't smoke--I've been using them in my TiVo for the past three years and the FCC is making the providers use them in every box that they lease. They may not have accomplished what they were supposed to and the manufacturers have abandoned making unidrectional CableCARD products (other than TiVo and Moxi DVRs) but CableCARDs are real.

You can stream NetFlix which has more movies from computer. Then get a Moxi or TV for better picture, better features. Native Netflix streaming is going to hit the Moxi soon (currently requires PC to stream to Moxi).

TWC Navigator Tips,

When Navigator was released in 2006-2007 we in Milwaukee Wisconsin along with Lincoln Nebraska were the first to get it. The guide at the time was such a putrid, steaming unreliable POS that half way into 2007, our TWC office canceled any more updates to it for a year to work out bugs.

We got Navigator in April of 2008 and I was so nervous about it, but it was fine. There are STILL things that need improvement. However, the difference in speed and reliability is like night and day.

You need a good box to run Navigator well. AT LEAST an SA 3000 series or higher. The newer the better. DVR subs should have AT LEAST an SA-8240 or better DVR. Or one of the new Samsung boxes.

Most Pioneer boxes, old SA boxes below 3000, old DVR SA-8000 model boxes SUCK running Navigator. This is often because of memory limitations in the older boxes. Get a new box, or at least have the models recommended above.

Next, make sure your wiring and signal strength are very good. When we had Navigator, we had an issue where it was rebooting several times a week. An in house tech, (and when you call for service, make sure you ask for an in-house tech) replaced our cable lines and now the box reboots maybe once a month. Navigator is more sensitive to line input and signal strength than the other guides. This is unfortunate.

There are still issues, but now, they relate to Navigator not being in compliance with 2010 IPG standards. Rumors of Keyword Search, Guide Filtering, and Remote DVR Management are coming in future updates. I think Navigator should get up to Passport after those features are added. They are supposed to be coming later this year, possibly beginning after the late spring early summer transition periods.

Jack

(Also copied to Cleveland Ohio and Albany New York Threads. The next areas getting TWC-Navigator.)

Utterly bizarre if true, since Samsung has been a development partner of theirs for ODN since the very beginning, displaying Navigator running prototype OCAP retail products at product shows for years. (Here (http://www.cedmagazine.com/samsung-time-warner-charter.aspx)'s a blurb about CES 2005, 5 years back, where Samsung was showing ODN running on a prototype television). No company has deeper experience with ODN than Samsung. If TWC is moving away from them I suspect that there are other factors.

Indeed, I recall a lot of the early talk/demo from TWC clearly featured Samsung equipment. I'd guess at this point there could be a lot of units in the field. It isn't unreasonable at all that TWC will be also going with units like the Cisco 8640 IN ADDITION to the Sammies... for all the times I disagree with their business decisions, THIS one is 100% a smart move on their part.

The odd thing is I have this really old box, the 8300HD... in service3 by me for 3-4 years at least. While there are a lot of MDN things I really dislike, I gotta say the box HAS been pretty reliable. So naturally, I want to know about the 8640s in the field, especially in my market (I strongly suspect that how the head end is run CAN have a major impact on the overall customer experience, one that can be wrongly attributed to the box).

Very well could be, but even members here have reported issues with Navigator running on the Samsung. I have to dig a little deeper for specifics. All I can confirm is that our VP of Communications confirmed that we are getting Cisco boxes as they deploy Navigator here. He is suppose to contact me when they become available here because I want to go get one.

And because WE want to hear all about it in the field!

By FCC regs, all of the Cisco/SA boxes which TWC has purchased since July 2007 are HDCs and AFAIK, all of the HDCs that they've purchased are running OCAP and ODN (well, some may still be running SARA, but I don't think that they've bought any which aren't capable of running OCAP and ODN). The version of Navigator running on the HD(no C) boxes is MDN and definitely not tru2way. TWC isn't claiming that all of their boxes are tru2way, just that they've deployed millions of boxes that are tru2way complaint, which may be technically true. Note that though they aren't allowed to buy any more Explorer xxxxHD(no C) boxes, they're perfecty free to continue distributing the ones they have that are still running.

OCAP isn't a Java application; it's a software environment in which to run Java applications. A bit like a virtual operating system running under a real operating system. The idea is that all OCAP boxes can run the same Java code, even though they may be running different processors and different operating systems. The OCAP can understand that Java code and offers the same set of services to it no matter what box its running on.CableCARDs aren't smoke--I've been using them in my TiVo for the past three years and the FCC is making the providers use them in every box that they lease. They may not have accomplished what they were supposed to and the manufacturers have abandoned making unidrectional CableCARD products (other than TiVo and Moxi DVRs) but CableCARDs are real.

Mike, I do know what a JVM is... and the brush strokes of what it does.

As for the smoke comment, perhaps I should have specified the time before the 06/07 integrated security requirements (obviously since then, the MSOs HAD to get them right). One very telling factor I think is the TV set guys who seemed to all drop slots on TVs.

And because WE want to hear all about it in the field!

Of course! I intend to give a no holds barred review on the unit once I've had some time with it.

ben let me know when the cisco's come available? i'll take a drive in to rome and grab a couple. Sounds like maybe the cisco's will run smoother for navigator or something in our region or i don't think twcny would drop samsung like a hot potato to shell out more money for a whole different box and model .

As for the smoke comment, perhaps I should have specified the time before the 06/07 integrated security requirements (obviously since then, the MSOs HAD to get them right). One very telling factor I think is the TV set guys who seemed to all drop slots on TVs.The no-integrated-security thing was supposed to go into effect on 6/05, but the cable providers asked for and received a 2-year extension to complete OCAP and the M-Card spec. When that happened, the CE OEMs screamed bloody murder and for good reason. It was definitely a boneheaded move on the part of the FCC and something which harmed the CableCARD initiative more than probably anything else, giving the providers two more years to discredit the technology, both by blatantly telling their customers that they shouldn't use it and by supporting it very poorly, making many of the customers who did use it sorry that they did.

Creating unidirectional CableCARD products, particularly standalone televisions, doesn't make any sense in this age of SDV. The TiVo and Moxi DVRs have the goofy Tuning Adapter, and support for TAs could be built into televisions, but it becomes even goofier in that context. CableCARDs cannot die before they get replaced by something like DCAS, since the Congressional mandate barring integrated security isn't going anywhere (section 304 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996). Until that replacement comes along, <tru2way> devices (and any non-tru2way cable provider leased STBs) have to have CableCARD slots; several million new CableCARD devices will be manufactured and sold each year.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/03/13/cablelabs-officially-defines-tru2way-set-back-box/

Tru2way SBB spec has been finalized. TWC already has the proper software but who knows when this will be deployed.

http://hd.engadget.com/2010/03/13/cablelabs-officially-defines-tru2way-set-back-box/

Tru2way SBB spec has been finalized. TWC already has the proper software but who knows when this will be deployed.The "set back box" is a sweet idea, being a modular device which can be installed somewhere out of sight and controlled by your television either through some proprietary mechanism or via HDMI CEC. Processing and memory for tru2way is an expensive chunk--letting people choose to add it as a module is very smart. The OEMs are still gonna want a low-end alternative to full tru2way though; SeaChange's Internet signalling scheme seems like a good bet for that. Of course, the cable industry will continue to fight a mandate to support something like that. They want complete control of your interface to their services.

Creating unidirectional CableCARD products, particularly standalone televisions, doesn't make any sense in this age of SDV. The TiVo and Moxi DVRs have the goofy Tuning Adapter, and support for TAs could be built into televisions, but it becomes even goofier in that context. CableCARDs cannot die before they get replaced by something like DCAS, since the Congressional mandate barring integrated security isn't going anywhere (section 304 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996). Until that replacement comes along, <tru2way> devices (and any non-tru2way cable provider leased STBs) have to have CableCARD slots; several million new CableCARD devices will be manufactured and sold each year.

I'm curious, why wasn't DCAS part of the <tru2way> spec?

They want complete control of your interface to their services.

PLUS a link in to your bank account so they can siphon off everything after you pay your rent/utility bills! Not to mention how bad a name they give to capitalism<g>!

I'm curious, why wasn't DCAS part of the <tru2way> spec?
Primary reason was (and still is) the lack of a DCAS implementation that was
APPROVED by ALL of the affected parties....including what is generally called "Hollywood".

BTW: All parties are trying to prevent the BluRay encryption code breaking loop-hole,
wherein there was a supposed "defect" in a PC's player software....since fixed.

A "Trusted Processor Core" has been postulated so that the decryption is buried and
hence inaccessible to hackers WITHIN the processor core:
http://www.iqmagazineonline.com/IQ/IQ23/pdfs/IQ23_pgs60-63.pdf
http://www.iqmagazineonline.com/IQ/IQ23/pdfs/IQ23_pgs67-70.pdf [See pg70 for continuation.]

FWIW, Intel will be including instructions tailored for the AES Encryption Code in new cores:
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-advanced-encryption-standard-aes-instructions-set/

DCAS development has also been aggravated by several false starts...no doubt indicative
of problems in the several proposed approaches...and possible heal dragging....

Meanwhile, cable companies continue to maintain excellent security behind their strong
wall of impenetrable, CableCARDs that are CABLE-OWNED and thereby better able
to defend against possible hackers, if need be, in court....

PS: Although I've heard of breaking the SmartCard system (card slot on front of cable box),
I've NEVER heard of anyone breaking the NDS encryption in non-CableCARD boxes...

=================================
Continuing stories re "breaking" AES (e.g. Wi-Fi et.al.) and GSM (Cell Phone) encryption
(although totally without merit against the REAL codes & systems) don't help:

Nov2001 NIST FIPS-197 AES Standard (Approved for Public Distribution):
http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips197/fips-197.pdf
Cute Stick Figure explanation re how AES code (a version of Rijndael) works:
http://www.moserware.com/2009/09/stick-figure-guide-to-advanced.html
Apr2004 paper re Rijndael weaknesses included Bruce Schneier:
http://www.schneier.com/paper-rijndael.pdf
Jul2009 Bruce Schneier's review of Aug2009 paper re Rijndael weaknesses:
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/07/another_new_aes.html
Aug2009 paper re Rijdael weaknesses:
http://eprint.iacr.org/2009/374.pdf
Note attacks were against WEAKENED Rijndael code versions....not ACTUAL AES codes
and most efficient attacks postulated KNOWING other keys that were somehow RELATED
(i.e. generated via a common algorithm).....highly unlikely theoretical studies....

And, of course, WiFi's original encrytion WPA (TKIP) was broken a long time ago....
A recent article re how long it took to break:
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/08/27/wpa.1.minute.hack/

=====================================
Hackers also announced that they had "broken" GSM Cellphone encryption:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/29/technology/29hack.html
But building a practical system would be much more difficult without
access to all the other GSM freq hop, muxing and other design data...
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2008/02/25/gsm_encryption_broken/1

=====================================
Last night I dug up the AES links when my son made a casual comment
(since disproved) that he had read that WPA2-PSK (AES-128) had
been cracked while we were trying to get my laptop's new WL-N
card to be recognized by his router......coincidence.....or serendipity???

Non Cable MSO's have been using DCAS for a few years. It seems to work for them just fine. CableVision might end up being the only cableco to deploy it.

Non Cable MSO's have been using DCAS for a few years. It seems to work for them just fine. CableVision might end up being the only cableco to deploy it.DCAS is not a generic term--it's a CableLABs designation for a technology under development. I don't know what non-cable MSOs are using, but it ain't DCAS, nor do they have a use for it. The entire purpose of DCAS is to allow the same machine to participate in secure communications on multiple networks which use different proprietary security systems. Are you aware of some STB or television with the ability to download proprietary security systems and operate on either DISH or DirecTV? That's what non-cable DCAS would be.

Mainly telcos who use IPTV. Those telcos use systems from Widevine or someother vendor. Latens already has one that works with DVB. Maybe they use a Software CAS and not a hardware one.

Both my 4250HDC and 3090 got some sort of download last night... no obvious version changes... still ODN 3.2.0_15 on both and 4.3.5.0 on the Samsung software.

Got another this morning... Samsung software updated from 4.3.5.0 to 4.3.5.3. Quick check indicates that FF/REW was massaged. Seems MUCH better now... more consistent in operation and shorter/more consistent jumpbacks.

Nothing else noticeable yet... BUT the first time I turned it on the box was acting badly... very sluggish to commands and after initially tuning a channel successfully, after about 6-7 seconds it would turn off and either the Not Authorized or Not Available message would pop up. A reboot fixed this.

Got another this morning... Samsung software updated from 4.3.5.0 to 4.3.5.3. Quick check indicates that FF/REW was massaged. Seems MUCH better now... more consistent in operation and shorter/more consistent jumpbacks.

Nothing else noticeable yet... BUT the first time I turned it on the box was acting badly... very sluggish to commands and after initially tuning a channel successfully, after about 6-7 seconds it would turn off and either the Not Authorized or Not Available message would pop up. A reboot fixed this.

Great to hear the FF issue was actually dealt with in a timely manner... VERY unusual.

Hmmm, double boots, eh? The last few major Apple OS updates also had double boots built into them... not sure I completely get it, maybe it's to clear any persistent RAM???

More glowing reviews coming in from Albany, NY (Albany, NY just started converting from SARA this month):

horrorfan2112 writes:

This new software is garbage. I hope the 8300 NEVER gets it. Painfully slow and causing hangups on channels. I have been a HDTV owner for just about ten years and cannot believe this software is this buggy. Whether it looks better is debatable, HATE IT!


econ writes:

I agree.This new software is a major step back.My 3250HD was updated and I too hope that TW doesn't update the 8300s.What is particularly annoying is if you want to see what's on and you press menu you get 3 options.Program guide,Find Shows and Settings from which you then have to make a choice.SLOW.SLOW.SLOW.And there is no option to allow you to see what's on 3 days from now.

Now, some of this seems procedural as in the user is used to hitting buttons on the SARA guide that don't do the same thing as Navigator. However, the general consensus has been that it is very slow and buggy.

On MDN,

I have always found my FF/REW speed to be pretty good. Once I got used to the jump-back and timing, I got good at using it. If you are FF'ing and you don't want to spoil the result of a show, you can just hit Pause where you want to stop it. Than Pause again to resume normal playback.

Jack

Got another this morning... Samsung software updated from 4.3.5.0 to 4.3.5.3. Quick check indicates that FF/REW was massaged. Seems MUCH better now... more consistent in operation and shorter/more consistent jumpbacks.

Nothing else noticeable yet... BUT the first time I turned it on the box was acting badly... very sluggish to commands and after initially tuning a channel successfully, after about 6-7 seconds it would turn off and either the Not Authorized or Not Available message would pop up. A reboot fixed this.

Hope it comes to San Diego in a timely manner. When you reboot the 3260 and 3270 you'll lose the VOD service group. If you lose the VOD service group you can't access the VOD service until the preview window comes up. What I do, is to tune to a VOD channel and then go to a regular channel, and finally back to the VOD channel. That way it loads up the preview window. When the preview window is working fine, then the service group has been loaded onto the box.

Hope it comes to San Diego in a timely manner. When you reboot the 3260 and 3270 you'll lose the VOD service group. If you lose the VOD service group you can't access the VOD service until the preview window comes up. What I do, is to tune to a VOD channel and then go to a regular channel, and finally back to the VOD channel. That way it loads up the preview window. When the preview window is working fine, then the service group has been loaded onto the box.

VOD was working fine with 4.3.5.0 on the 3090 here... I'll do a more thorough run through tonight and make sure nothing got broken on 4.3.5.3.

On MDN,

I have always found my FF/REW speed to be pretty good. Once I got used to the jump-back and timing, I got good at using it. If you are FF'ing and you don't want to spoil the result of a show, you can just hit Pause where you want to stop it. Than Pause again to resume normal playback.

Jack

ODN running on the 8300HDC was pretty good, too.

You've never had the "pleasure" of trying to master the FF/REW on a Samsung running 4.3.5.0 software! If you ever watched an episode of 7 Days and saw Lt. Frank Parker trying to jockey the time machine to keep it on course... THAT is how it felt trying to work the FF/REW "time machine" on 4.3.5.0!

ODN running on the 8300HDC was pretty good, too.

You've never had the "pleasure" of trying to master the FF/REW on a Samsung running 4.3.5.0 software! If you ever watched an episode of 7 Days and saw Lt. Frank Parker trying to jockey the time machine to keep it on course... THAT is how it felt trying to work the FF/REW "time machine" on 4.3.5.0!

I'm so happy to hear that this issue might finally be fixed. It felt like the box wasn't actually doing any fast forwarding or rewinding at all. It would show only about 1 image frame every 3-4 seconds, so I have no idea how much video time was elapsing between those random frames. Then, when you finally saw a frame of the show I was watching, I would hit play and it would be over a minute or two into the show after showing me only one frame.

Oh, and my favorite was when you rewind a show and hit play when you reach the spot you want, the box wouldn't play the show for you at the point you hit play. It would decide to go as far back as it had show programming in its buffer. So, if I had been watching a channel for say one hour, and decided to rewind the show backwards 2 minutes, it would jump all the way back an entire hour. It's like when you hit play, the box just up and decided it wanted you to see everything that you had already watched, not just the 2 minutes you intended to rewind.

I saw that my box had rebooted this morning, so I hope this was fixed on my Samsung as well because I had basically just stopped watching recorded content because I was tired of dealing with the box. I would either watch it live, just save it for a later date. I'll have to do a lot of catching up because my DVR is filling up fast since I put it on probation.

More glowing reviews coming in from Albany, NY (Albany, NY just started converting from SARA this month):

horrorfan2112 writes:

This new software is garbage. I hope the 8300 NEVER gets it. Painfully slow and causing hangups on channels. I have been a HDTV owner for just about ten years and cannot believe this software is this buggy. Whether it looks better is debatable, HATE IT!


econ writes:

I agree.This new software is a major step back.My 3250HD was updated and I too hope that TW doesn't update the 8300s.What is particularly annoying is if you want to see what's on and you press menu you get 3 options.Program guide,Find Shows and Settings from which you then have to make a choice.SLOW.SLOW.SLOW.And there is no option to allow you to see what's on 3 days from now.

Now, some of this seems procedural as in the user is used to hitting buttons on the SARA guide that don't do the same thing as Navigator. However, the general consensus has been that it is very slow and buggy.

North Carolina and South Carolina had few or none of the above problems. Most problems came from two sources. (1) People begin to gripe before they learn how to use Navigator. It does take a bit of getting used to. (2) A older box can cause Navigator to run slow. Try adjusting your settings. Reboot the box. If this does not help turn your box in for a newer version. These steps usually solve most of the major problems. Rereading the above posts I can see people yelling about features that are clearly in Navigator such as looking 3 days ahead. You can look 7 days ahead. If TWC gave you the same manual we got here the instructions for looking ahead and much more or in there. If not check answers on demand or call TWC. WOODY

North Carolina and South Carolina had few or none of the above problems. Most problems came from two sources. (1) People begin to gripe before they learn how to use Navigator. It does take a bit of getting used to. (2) A older box can cause Navigator to run slow. Try adjusting your settings. Reboot the box. If this does not help turn your box in for a newer version. These steps usually solve most of the major problems. Rereading the above posts I can see people yelling about features that are clearly in Navigator such as looking 3 days ahead. You can look 7 days ahead. If TWC gave you the same manual we got here the instructions for looking ahead and much more or in there. If not check answers on demand or call TWC. WOODY

it's mostly that people don't like change, it forces them to actually stop and think for a few seconds

Well, I plan to give Navigator a fair shake. I'm going to run it through it's paces on both the 8300HD I have currently and the 8640HDC once we get it here. I am just reporting the general consensus of people reporting their experience with it.

VOD was working fine with 4.3.5.0 on the 3090 here... I'll do a more thorough run through tonight and make sure nothing got broken on 4.3.5.3.

FF/REW are definitely much improved. No issues found with VOD.

However... we do have a new issue which sounds similar to what has been reported with 2.4.9.4 in NYC... if DVR playback is paused for an extended period (don't know the exact threshold - let's just say several minutes), it will not come out of pause unless you leave DVR playback completely (press stop or change channel), after which you can go back to the DVR list and use Resume Play to restart from where it had been paused. Brief pauses will not lock up.

I'm not sure I understand how obvious problems like this get past any kind of testing procedures. Pausing long enough to run to the kitchen for milk and cookies is not exactly an unusual circumstance. Doesn't seem like something that would be influenced by unique local conditions/signal levels/etc.

This new software is garbage. I hope the 8300 NEVER gets it. Painfully slow and causing hangups on channels. I have been a HDTV owner for just about ten years and cannot believe this software is this buggy. Whether it looks better is debatable, HATE IT!
I COULDNT AGREE MORE WITH WHOEVER THAT IS!!!!

Pure crap......

People wonder why i dispise new things... TAKE A LOOK @ NAVIGATOR AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHY...... (Garbage compared to SARA (Slow,over bloated menus,etc!!))

I COULDNT AGREE MORE WITH WHOEVER THAT IS!!!!

Pure crap......

People wonder why i dispise new things... TAKE A LOOK @ NAVIGATOR AND YOU WILL UNDERSTAND WHY...... (Garbage compared to SARA (Slow,over bloated menus,etc!!))

I tend to agree with Crazywoody's post above. It's not slow on newer boxes and there is hardly any need to navigate any menus at all once you learn the software.

When I visit with family with SARA boxes I feel the same way... it's butt ugliness aside, I can't find how to do the simplest things that are second nature for me on Navigator. Does that make one better or worse than the other? Does that make either of us wrong or stupid? No... it's just different and it takes some time to change habits.

I think it looks UGLY... Way over bloated,just crap!!

WHY DO PEOPLE CHANGE THINGS WHEN THEY ARE WORKING FINE??

Totally stupid.......

I think it looks UGLY... Way over bloated,just crap!!

WHY DO PEOPLE CHANGE THINGS WHEN THEY ARE WORKING FINE??

Totally stupid.......

One reason is that SARA is on the verge of being discontinued by Cisco in favor of their new trueway guide blue. They do not even service SARA anymore it's been farmed out to another company. The new version of SARA the IBBAS company is comeing out with next year looks a lot and I mean a lot like Navigator.I belive it is being renamed also. WOODY

One reason is that SARA is on the verge of being discontinued by Cisco in favor of their new trueway guide blue. They do not even service SARA anymore it's been farmed out to another company. The new version of SARA the IBBAS company is comeing out with next year looks a lot and I mean a lot like Navigator.I belive it is being renamed also. WOODY

The company is called itaas and they've done work on both ODN and MDN. Cisco still has some control over the project. They're considering a tru2way SARA for those systems that want to use tru2way and keep SARA. The new SARA got a new look which looks a lot better than what it used to be. I think itaas will do a good job in making SARA a good guide. Then again companies like TWC, Comcast, and Cox all have plans to dump it with either their own or in Cox's case a guide made by NDS.

I think it looks UGLY... Way over bloated,just crap!!

WHY DO PEOPLE CHANGE THINGS WHEN THEY ARE WORKING FINE??

Totally stupid.......It might have been working fine for you but I used SARA for a few weeks once and it nearly drove me insane. It depends upon what you're used to your IPG being able to do for you (I have a TiVo background, followed by using the very TiVo-like Passport Echo). Though it's extremely solid and reliable, SARA is also frustratingly primitive for people like me. Talk about f'ugly!!! All homemade fonts and jagged, amateurish line-art, an untalented group of special-needs elementary school children could create a more attractive IPG than SARA. Clearly, not one artist or human factors engineer was involved in its design.

I'm not a huge fan of Navigator, but I find it to be far preferable to SARA. I'm grateful to currently rarely have to use either :D.

North Carolina and South Carolina had few or none of the above problems. Most problems came from two sources. (1) People begin to gripe before they learn how to use Navigator. It does take a bit of getting used to. (2) A older box can cause Navigator to run slow. Try adjusting your settings. Reboot the box. If this does not help turn your box in for a newer version. These steps usually solve most of the major problems. Rereading the above posts I can see people yelling about features that are clearly in Navigator such as looking 3 days ahead. You can look 7 days ahead. If TWC gave you the same manual we got here the instructions for looking ahead and much more or in there. If not check answers on demand or call TWC. WOODY

ODN must have some form of multicore optimizations as the Samsung boxes are significantly faster than the HDC's. My 8300HDC is by far one of the slowest cable boxes I've ever had. It can sometimes rival a Pioneer BD-V1100. ODN should have never been deployed on this box. MDN would have been better for the older HDC boxes. I also think Cisco should have used a dual core CPU for the 8640/4640 as Navigator can take advantage of the processors multi core capabilities for an extra boost of speed. Maybe it's the underlying components on the Samsung boxes that are multi core.

ODN must have some form of multicore optimizations as the Samsung boxes are significantly faster than the HDC's. My 8300HDC is by far one of the slowest cable boxes I've ever had. It can sometimes rival a Pioneer BD-V1100. ODN should have never been deployed on this box. MDN would have been better for the older HDC boxes. I also think Cisco should have used a dual core CPU for the 8640/4640 as Navigator can take advantage of the processors multi core capabilities for an extra boost of speed. Maybe it's the underlying components on the Samsung boxes that are multi core.

I'm curious as to what the production date of your 8300HDC is/was. The 8300HDC I traded in for my 3090 actually was built the same month as the 3090 (Oct '08) and it was not slow at all running ODN 3.1.x. The Samsung was slightly faster, but the I never got frustrated by the HDC. It was certainly not nearly as bad as MDN was on the Pioneer HD non-DVR box I had before the HDC... now THAT was sloooow.

However, the general consensus has been that it is very slow and buggy.

Mmmmm, not sure I'd categorize it that way. Trust me, I DO have my issues with MDN, but that is 100% colored by having had Passport for years before I got 'gatored. I also had a buggy release that nobody else has gotten outside my "northern half of Manhattan" head end. THAT bug (effecting series recordings only for those heavily invested in them) got slip stream fixed.

So on the basis of exactly what they do, I still prefer Passport... by a good margin. BUT, my 8300HD/MDN is NOT "buggy and slow." Every function seems just as fast as Passport (save going day to day in the guide, which is slower).

BTW, WAY too many people call anything they might not like or are not used to a "bug." WRONG. Bugs only occur when the software does NOT consistently perform it's design function. If the design function is not to your liking, it is NOT a bug!

People begin to gripe before they learn how to use Navigator. It does take a bit of getting used to.

Ha, I sure did that... BUT after I fully grokked it, I still had issues. At this point, it works damn close to it's design, it's the design that I dislike.

ODN must have some form of multicore optimizations as the Samsung boxes are significantly faster than the HDC's.

FWIW, that would mean multi-threaded. Not every piece of software function can benefit from multi-threading. Not to mention that knowing HOW to multi-thread is somewhat of an art form in itself.

Ha, I sure did that... BUT after I fully grokked it, I still had issues. At this point, it works damn close to it's design, it's the design that I dislike.

I still stand by my quote. "COMPARED TO SARA NAVIGATOR IS TIVO" Yes I have used Passport and it was a great guide. But SARA is no Navigator. WOODY

Well, I plan to give Navigator a fair shake. I'm going to run it through it's paces on both the 8300HD I have currently and the 8640HDC once we get it here. I am just reporting the general consensus of people reporting their experience with it.

remember: "he who goes first, sets the standard"

anything after that just plain works wrong (in everyone's mind)

Got a voice mail message that TWC is doing upgrades in my area tonight, "To Give You Better Service." No other details known. We are supposed to be back up by 5 am.

Jack

Got a voice mail message that TWC is doing upgrades in my area tonight, "To Give You Better Service." No other details known. We are supposed to be back up by 5 am.

Jack

I got that message about 2 weeks ago in Kansas City market and to date still haven't seen an update and I check daily. I'm still on 3.1.3_3.

I think it looks UGLY... Way over bloated,just crap!!

WHY DO PEOPLE CHANGE THINGS WHEN THEY ARE WORKING FINE??

Totally stupid.......

Do you surf on your 486DX running MS-DOS via 28.8 modem while watching SARA?

I thankfully have never had to use SARA, but based on the screenshots I would have never allowed it in my house.

I think my last VCR had a better GUI than SARA.

I still stand by my quote. "COMPARED TO SARA NAVIGATOR IS TIVO" Yes I have used Passport and it was a great guide. But SARA is no Navigator. WOODY

I think when we get better search options and Manual Recording, that it will be like Passport. I think more detailed program descriptions are coming in the next update. And than there's Remote DVR Web Programing Management, which sounds cool.

Jack

ODN must have some form of multicore optimizations as the Samsung boxes are significantly faster than the HDC's. My 8300HDC is by far one of the slowest cable boxes I've ever had. It can sometimes rival a Pioneer BD-V1100. ODN should have never been deployed on this box. MDN would have been better for the older HDC boxes. I also think Cisco should have used a dual core CPU for the 8640/4640 as Navigator can take advantage of the processors multi core capabilities for an extra boost of speed. Maybe it's the underlying components on the Samsung boxes that are multi core.

Hi! I was just checking in after finally buying my own HDTV. I was stuck in NTSC-ville for a while on cable because I couldn't buy an HDTV with a clear conscience until I had totally paid off massive debts to my parents who have both lost their jobs. I check in here because my parents are in Cary, NC, a TWC area, even though I now am in a Charter area with the much worse i-Guide. If you want me to explain how bad it is, reply to this message asking how bad it is so that you will feel lucky that you have Navigator. My job requires me to possibly move often, so I have to use the cable company DVR because owning my own DVR that could become an expensive paper weight due to the damage from frequent moves is silly.

Anyways, if you looked near the bottom of page 3 of the 8300HDC data sheet (http://www.cisco.com/en/US/prod/collateral/video/ps8611/ps8612/ps8613/product_data_sheet0900aecd806c6920.pdf), you will notice that there are two main 250MHz CPUs. Therefore, if ODN runs on the Samsung boxes using multicore optimizations, it would run with those optimizations on the 8300HDC because multicore CPUs are really regular CPUs and a high speed interconnect tying them together on the same piece of silicon, and because Java provides a multithreading library to allow any Java program to use multiple CPU cores if they are present on the system. The only reasons multiple CPUs would be worse than a multicore CPU are if one or more of the CPUs was saturating the bus making inter-CPU communications slower or if the threads running on the CPUs are so interlocked that the CPUs essentially slow down to the speed of the bus. Both of those problems would be helped by the multicore interconnect by bypassing the bus. Otherwise, multiple CPUs would perform as well as a multicore CPU if everything else is even. Therefore, your argument that multicore optimizations speed up only the Samsung boxes is mostly invalid. However, the Samsung CPUs are probably much faster because the Samsung boxes were designed from the ground up much later than the 8300HD was designed and which the 8300HDC was just a rush job to add compliance to a then-current but now obsolete version of OCAP to the 8300HD, not bothering to update anything not needed for compliance, including not upgrading the CPUs to faster versions.

I think when we get better search options and Manual Recording, that it will be like Passport.

Adding search options won't make it like Passport. The entire GUI of Navigator would have to be redesigned first - or actually designed to being with.

Search options won't add the timecode back in a logical place along the progress bar or add visually appealing icons, better use of fonts, quick settings menu, better main menu design etc.